The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-13 00:00:00

IRISH POOR.

Lord BROUGHAM presetted a petition from Bradford,
complaining of distress, which the Petitioners stated to be
greatly aggravated by the constant influx of Irish paupers,
who were sent over here to be aupported by the English ;
the Irish landlords and proprietors, meantime, contributing
nothing for their support, and being, at the same time,
ezesapt from many of the taxes which pressed grievously on
Waud, sash so the assessed taxes, the income-tax, Ike.
tranineission of Irish paupers to England, the noble
and barna lard observed, was proceeding s. atematically,
and ea a Nab of eamstantly increasing magnitude. Hun-
dreds and kusidrola were coming over daily : more than
hasdredii, is bet, for only the other day, and in one day,
lbws landed at Liverpool ao fewer than 3,100 of these
watched creatures. When an inquiry was made es to the
mass they pasamsed of coming over at all, it turned out,
from their own statement, that each pauper had been sup-
plied by the landlords of Ireland with 2.e. 6d. to enable
him to invade England. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Brougham)
kad suggested that the authorities of the towns thus inun-
dated had better give each pauper h. 6d. a piece I. enable
him to go back again (A laugh.)
The Earl of DEVON said there was one statement made
by the noble and learned lord, which, he would venture to
say, ought not to be made without good and substantial foun-
dation. The noble and learned lord had stated it as a fact
that hundreds of poor persons were sent over to this country
by the Irish landlord., receiving from them half.a-ernwn a
piece to enable them to come. (" Hear, hear," from Lord
Brougham.) He (the Earl of Devon) did not believe there
was a word of troth in that statement. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM—My lords, I firmly believe it. I
eorapletely, and entirely, and conasientiously believe it ;
and, my lords—
The Earl of DEVON—Does the noble lord rise to reply
or to explain?
Lord BROUGHAM (with great vehemence)—Whichever
I please. (Sensetion.)
The Earl of DEVON—According to the orders of this
house, the noble lord has a right to explain, but he has no
light to speak in reply. If he persists, I shall take the sense
of the house upon it.
Lord BROUGHAM—And iso shall I. Ido penile., and I
shall take the sense of the house upon it.
The Earl of DEVON (advancing to the ministerial side of
the table)—My lords, I stand upon your orders! (Con-
fusion.) I rise to order! (Cries of "Order.") My lords,
Iyw kto order! (Renewed uproar.)
Lord BROUGHAM (at the opposition side, and with
prod vehemence)-1 am speaking to order too. I have a
right to be heard. (Much confusion.)
The Earl of DEVON (amid the noise)—l shall take the
sense of the house. _

Lord BROUGHAM—Very well; take the sense of the
house—take the sense of the house. _ .

The Earfoiiiiiiiiiiji".l;u. I am now speaking to

Lord BROUGHAM—And I am speaking to order, too.
[Here there were very loud cries of " Order, order," from
ad parts of the assembly, and the Earl of Devon retired to
his place.] Have I not a right to interrupt a person who is
speaking to order, in order that I may speak to order myself ?
Have I not a right, having moved that this petition do lie
upon your table—have I not a right to reply to any one who
has chosen to discuss that motion ? Or, even if you di ny;me
that, will the noble and learned—no, not learned—will the
noble lord tell me that I shall not be within the limits of the
strictest rules of your house in now moving that that petition
be referred to a select committee ? When he says that I have
no right to speak excepting in explanation, be leaves me at
least a right to explain, and how does he know that I am not
going to explain ? When he riles in his plate, and tells you he
does not believe a word that I hare said I have a right to
say, and Ido say, that what I Mee said is true I repeat
its I re-assert it! I tell the noble lord it is true, and not
false, as he declares it ! I tell him that I believe every word
of it : that I have perfectly good foundation for it that I
have a right to believe every Hord of it, and that I de be-
lieve it, do re-assert It, and do re-state it ! (These expressions
were uttered with great vehemence, and amid the profound
' silence of the house.) A more offensive mode of expressing
disbelief I never heard in either house of parliament! He
says there isnot a word of truth in vilest I say: I tell him
that ray belief is that every tittle of it is strictly,
correctly, and literally true. I never stated that every
one of these 3,100 paupers came over here with half-a-crown
in his pocket, given him by the landlords. Understating my
ease, as I always do, I limited, restrained, and restricted my
Illation ton err. of the nern'tts ; nit I 1 appecl to Toe Ice
ships' recollection as to what I said. My information came
from persons in Liverpool who have examined these emi-
grants—who have satisfied themselves by their examination
of the truth of their statement; and that statement I shall
give the noble lord, who is a member of the Criminal Low
Committee, an opportunity of silting for himself, for I am
about to call berme that committee two or three of my prin-
cipal informants—most respectable persons in the town of
Liverpool—who will be examined upon oath, and who will
confirm every word I utter.
The Earl of DESART. My lords, I do not rise so mush
to refer to those statements as to ask the noble and learned
lord to state to as with what objeet he persists in
asking these increase and repeated attacks ? Are they
made npon us as a body, or are they directed at in-
dividuals? For what purpose does he night alter night
irritate as by these stings—and oblige us to weary your lord-
ships with our replies, using, as we are forced to do, the
uninteresting weapons of defence against his unexampled
powers of sarcasm and attack ? If, my lords, these assaults
are mere wantrinees, I beg the noble lord to chore a mere
firing subject; if they are made on substantial foundation
sad with good object, I beg him to give as fair notice of his
intentions, es order that from time to time we may prepare .
ourselves for defence ,• but if they are made without founda-
tion, or front mere spleen, then I Iscg the noble and learned
lord to reflect that, great and varied as are his ahilities, even
his @mesons cannot internee your lordships when so often
repeated, and that ultimately they will sink into contempt
before the power and influence of truth. (Very much
sheerine.)
Lard BROUGHAM—AirIine lis}at to me, I sup-
pose that I am allowed by of your lord-
ships' house, interpreted though Wye Wh.i be the noble
earl opposite, to rise in my Ors for thereupon of reply. I
am asked why I make these armee. Atimittiag them, for
the sake of the arcument, to be attaoluble= that I wake
them for one obi ect, and one elect only, mss
to awaken the Irish landlords and the Irlis potpie at Lute
to the absolute necessity of providing he gheongamet of thew
owe poor, and not of looking to litagleet bribe swolet of
the Irish people. And, upon the orsamptiss that lin
his object, I have a second, I wish to keeper upon year
lordships, and upon the government, gad the public, the
necessity of absta;nutg from the wild and visionary attempt,
for wild and visionary it is, of attempting to sapport the en-
tire population of Ireland.
The Earl of CLARE said, then was one allegation in the
petition the noble and learned lei bad presented from
Ursdford to which It. desired to call attowlon It was mid.
that " the property of Ireland was allowed to escape from
the payment of poor rates" Now it was roily that morning
that he had reed, in a Limerick paper, a report of a meeting
of the guardians of the Limerick Union, at which they had I
discerned the necessity of imposing a rate of ale in the pound,
and had only postponed making the rate for one week in the
hope that B. large an assessment might not be necessary.
Lord BROUGHAM said he had 'ter. r given the allege-
tion as a statement of-his own.

_ The Ma ail
,;(I.ZiiisovrNE here rose. He said,
My lords, I am desirous of raying one word upon this sub-
ject, in order that I may not be understood by my silence to
erprow acquiescence in the supposition, ssggeated by the
noble and learned lord, that her Majesty's government ever
contemplated an absurdity so monitions or so mischievous
as to undertake the ,ostentation of the population of Ireland
independently of assistance from Irish property. My lords,
the government at no time ever entertained such an inten-
tion ; and I wOl say for the Irish nobles, and the Irish gentry,
that at no time did they ever ask the government to
undertake each an office. (Hear, hew ) 'What we have
done is. in an emergency unparalleled, Feeinir the poorer
classes of this kingdom--( for England and Ireland are but one
kingdom)—labouring under the pressure of • calamity from

which it was impossible they should extricate themselves,—
we lave net thought it unbecoming, either to the moral cha-
racter or the political position of the richer and happier part
of the empire, to exert itself for the relief of the distressed
portions, with a view to carry them through the emergency.
(Hear, hear.) More than that. my lords, we have not Oh
teroptal,—more than that we shall not attempt. We have
done what may be in some respects injudicious ; we hsve
certainly done what, in some respects, hu been productive
of consequences which could not have been expected ;—under
the extraordinary increase of the calamity, we have done that
which under other circumstances might have been dangerous,
—but dangerous or injudicious as may have been wine of our
measures, we h ice, my lords, the satisfaction of thinking that
our interference has been the saving of multitudes of human
lives. (Lou! ems of "Hear, bear.") My lords, I can
prove to your lordships, whenever you shall think it right
to go into the consideration of this subj. et at large, that
bed it not been fur our interference during this until oda-
nsity—at a time when the angel of i.eath may be said to
have spread his dark wings fir and wide over the length
and breadth of the land—that instead of thousands a day
falling victims to the calamity-, we should have had to
mourn the fate of hundreds of thousands of our lellow-
creatures. I cannot, therefore, for my awn part, repent any
share I may have had as one of her htsjesty's advisers in
endeavouring not to extinguish—not to put a stop to the
calamity (fdr that alone depends on the councils of the
Almighty)—but to mitigate the intensity, to lessen the
weight and pressure of such an evil as I pray God
Ile world may never witness again, and as I am
sure the world never a Unused before. But, my lords, in
making this effort we have endeavoured to act note princi-
pals but as auxiliaries,—requiring. in every case in which
we assisted, that local exertions should be made at least
equal to the extent of our contributions. I will not say that
in all eases and at all times have those local exertions borne
a corresponding proportion to the necessity, but I am bound
to my that in a great many instances they have ; and it is only
right that I should Ad iurther, that at no period has that
part of the United Kin:Adorn been more awakened than it is
at present to a sense of the duty which it owes itself. (Hear,
hear, from the Irish peers.) I believe, my lords, that there
is an awaking exertion in that country only allayed at this
time by the severity of the premise' with which it has to con-
tend; and I do not believe that in the mortal it
is sslakih the Irish people are now engaged, a British pnie
meat will censurea government which has ariven to uphold
them in a contest, the issue of which, as it affects millions,
is still in the hands of Gud. (Loud cheers.) I need,
my lord* scarcely add to this, that whilst endeavouring to
provide forj the present, we have not overlooked the neces-
sity of providing for the future. We are now engaged in
framing that amended poor-law to which I shall soon be
under the necessity of calling the noble and learned lord's
attention, and with respect to which I beg him to under-
stand that, in imposing the burden" which this calamity
necessitates, we do not overlook the necessity of devolving
upon Ireland her full and proper share. (Ilea", hear.) I
have thought, my lords, that I owed it to myself—l have
thought that I owed it to the government with which I am
associated—to make these few remarks : I owe it likewise to
the liberality of a large majority of the other house of
parliament, and above all to the munificence of the
public without the walls of the senate, who have so
generously and nobly responded to every appeal that has
been made to them with • view to mitigate the pressure and
severity of this misfortune. (The noble lord sat down
II maid mach cheering.)
CROWN JEWELS.
The Viscount STRANOFORD said the courtesy of the
noble marquis opposite permitted him to put a question
relative to a matter in dispute between this court and the
Court of Hanover. He alluded to the discussion which had
arisen respecting the right to certain crown jewel,.
Looking at it, however, ae he did, as a public matter,
he ventured to ask her Majesty's government what
was the state of the question at present, and it there would
be any objection to the production of the communications on
the subject which might have tateu place since the lamented
death of King William IV. between the governments of
Ib,gland and of Hanover?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that be certainly
should not object to answer the question as to the present
state of this matter, but he must decidedly object to the pro-
duction of any papists on the subject. At the time of the
lamented deceue of William IV., a question arose with respect
to the :right in the property of a considerable amount of
jewels which formerly belonged to the House of
Hanover, afterwards to King George 111., sod then to
Queen Charlotte. After a time the parties adopted a course,
alike honourable to theme lees and becoming the situation
in which they were placed. They determined, instead of
having recourse to a court of justice, to rque st three of the
meat eminent lawyers of the land to become arbitrators,
binding themselviss, not by law but iu honour, to abide by
their decision. Those three lawyers did for some time in-
mtigate the. Luz, and in the aaiumot of lilt tLvy 1.,111,1 to
a decision as to the nature or the report which they should
make. They decided upon the substance of such report,
hut at the very moment that report was about to be put into
shape, the arbitrators being Lord Lyndhurst, Lord Lang.
dale, and Lord Chief Justice Tindal, Lord Chief Justice
Tindal died. This put a stop to the proceedings. It was
subsequently proposed on tho part of the King of Hanover
that the two surviving arbitrators should choose a third ; but
an objection, and a very sound objection, was raised to this—
that the arrangement would involve the reconsideration of
the whole case. It was then propoee.i by her Majestj's go-
vernment on the pert of her Majesty, that it being notorious
that the three commissiouers were unanimous in their
opinion with respect to the jewels appertaining to her Ma-
jesty Queen Charlotte, and two of the comntiadoners being
able to state decisively what was the opinion of the third—
that that decision should be acted on and adopted as the de-
cision of the arbitrators generally, there being, in such case,
j
a fresh inquiry with respect to the remaining ewels. That
proposition was not agreeable to the King of Hanover.
Now, a decision hosing been pronounced with re-
spect to the first class of jewels, with regard to
the other clue, a fresh communication should be
made, in order to put the matter in a train
for inquiry; be referred to the minor portion of the
jewels, which had belonged to the house of Hanover, and
were bequeathed to the house of Hanover by King George
the Second. He would again remind their lordships that
this was a question with which psrt:sment and the public
had no concern. Ile had thought it right not to withhold
information when questioned upon the subject; but basing
stated the facts exactly as they then stood, he certainly con-
sidered that the more proper course would be to 'hate in trona
anything like interference, and he hoped their lordships
would agree with him, that the matter should be left to that
just and equitable decision to which both the illustrious per-
sons interested were dispneed to defer. (liar.)
Lord BROUGHAM could not help saying, in fairness to one
of the illustrious parties, that he did not think that party was
' called upon to take the judgment of the commissioners as if
it were an sward ; for until the arbitration was concluded, it
was impossible to tell what would be the decision on the
second point. He thought the best course would be to ap-
point a third person, who should form his opinion from the
statements of the two other commissioners. . .

The Marqui. of LANSDOWNE had not intended to con-
vey that the King of Hanover woald be bound by the de-
cision. A proposition had been made to him, which it was
perfectly open to him, consistently with honour, to accept or
reject.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the noble viocount
(Viscount Strangford) had referred to the saying, "Posses-
sion is nine points of the law," as though that were con-
oiderrd applicable to the present case. If it were meant by
that allusion to imply that any improper use would be made
of due fact of possession in the case under consideraton, he
could not admit the j uatice of such a representation.
Their lordships adjourned at twenty minutes to seven.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.--FmoAY,MARCH 12.

The Bragaaa took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINEMS.
PETITIONS.—IIy Mr. Burnerimoe. from Lord Brougham and
others, against the Hartlepool Railway BilL
SECOND READINCIA—AIhoIme Railway (from the Leeds and
Selby Railway to Gairotoroogh with branches); Bingtegr, Edin-
burgh and Northern Railway (improvement of the between
Perry Port on Craig and the north shore of the River Tay ; Enfield
sad Edmonton Railway Eatension ; Leominster Canal Navigation
ask; Liverpool CCoorryeoonntion Wsrerworlu; Manebemer end Birming-
ham sad North fatsibire Junction Railway; Newhaven Harbour,
Owe Lower Navigation, and lows and Leughton Drainage ; Oe-
-1 ford, Woreeerter, and WoMerhamptau Railway (No. I (newton',
and Amendment); Portland Barbour of Refuge sad &ask VIIICr
Rochdale Improvement Bill..
PUBLIC RUMNESS,
FIRST READINGA—cugody M Offenders Priem Dille.
REPORT.—Dralnage of Lend BilL
NOTICE OP MOTlON.—Mmenno, Pawnee, AND bonne° or
Tow—Mr. ro —Mr. neune', on 'Needs) nest, to • the government
whether it was Intended to introduce a general mess, in reference
to these oublects-
WAGES ON PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND.)
In reply to M. J. O'Coicxxxt, Mr. LABOUCHERE said
that on the Sligo works, a man might by task-work earn
fourteen-pence a day. The wages he had mated to be eight.
pence, but, that in cases of men having families, two or
three atenthersof the family were plead also on the works.
EXPORTATION OF CORN.
Mr. BAILLIE wished to know whether government
meant to take say steps to prohibit the exportation of corn ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that government were of opinion
that a prohibition on our part to export corn would be a
mode of preveating corn being brought into thin country.
CAPTAIN WARNER'S LONG RANGE.
Sir R. PEEL wished to ask a question with respect to a
short report which had been made by the offices, who had
been wisembelswed by the government to test the value of
the ineneffilleal se a Mr. Warner. (A laugh.) He believed
the espolosse width had been made had resulted in the
gado Mears ef times inventions; but there wee some re•
hem mei, it Ns men to the minutes of the *Seen who
were emathdesswi to make the experiments. Would there
be may elgestien to the production of these minutce ? His
cml&olileet wee to hem the question set at est.
J. RUSSELL cowered that the officers who bad
been commindoned to make the experiments bad made their
report purposely short, in order that they might not, in any
way, damage Mr. Warner by entering into any statement
of the nature of his inventions. He believed, however, that
Mr. Warner bad no objection to the production of the mi-
nutes; end if on inquiry he found they could be produced
without inconvenience, he &hosed be prepared to lay them
on the table.
IMPROVEMENTS AT LOUGH FOYLE AND
LOUGH CORRIB.
In reply to. 40101 Mr. BL•ILI,
Mr. LABOUCHERE void the delay in proceeding with
these improvements was net attribetabk to the °Rinses of the
Board of Works, let MO occasioned by the millers isterested
in the water power, who bad delayed giving the necessary
assents.
GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE TO FREE
EMIGRANTS.
Mr. VESEY observed that many persons in Ireland were
making preparations to emigrate at their own expense. In
one district he knew of 400 families who were przparing to
emigrate to America. Thee persons had the means of
going errors the Atlantic, hut no more, and what they
wanted was, that when they landed at Quebec some arist-
-

.

frAwdelheeli=hlei is enable them to reach the Upper
Skates of cwhere there was a great demand fur la-
bour. lie vdeled ti,
know whether the povernment had
aide, or eententplated making, preparation for affording
each sasistana ?
Mr. HAWES replied that them was a small fund, and
but a very small fund, at the diepaal of the Emigration
Board, out of which a small provision migl.t be made to
emigrants, if destitute, on their arrival in the colony, to
eatble th^m prceeed m their demita•im. That font was
composed of a small tax levied upon the emigrants in the
colony, asaisted by a vote of the houses, but it was so small as
to require the u:most frugality aad care in its distributioa.
In the increase his noble friend proposed in the vote of Ilia
year he was not aware whether there was any intention a
providing a fund to convey destitute emigrants from the pert
of debareation to their ultimata destitution.

have Dean by a great number of representations from indi-
vidual officers employed in various departments of the ems-
ntissariat sad theßoard of Works, the government deter-
mined that it was neneseary to reduce as far as pasellile at
this time of the year, when the ploughing and sowing should
take place, to prepare for the coming crops—to reduc., as
far Lo possible, the number of persons employed oa those
public works. (Cheers.) And, with this view, and on these
grounds, my right hon. friend the Secretary for the Home
Department, wrote to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, sug-
gesting to him that the number should be reduced as far as
possible, and that no new talents should be made, ex-
cept spin very epeMfi pounds, in which ease he
should mks a spesid meet to the Secretary of State.
The Tvessaty hays also illeastaa eat—

POOR-I.AS._(I.RELA.NI)) BILL.

ot lttfe %Amodio.* Mom that tram dataiday, dm Min of
Nook So maw • t pair imployel an the lOW works will be
raml bp ast Moo em be pot art, mil OM the malathr will be
anioModl b mandwo dad In the prepertim and
Mir Mr Is M horistrathall hp Ida laud, untll the mow ark=
at MIK mho tho Nth of Vlstri► op. y shall hare bun km*
inno Yepwla Ihmom* *pa tor earn ing MY
moot his AIM et la Ma 1p tho DIM ot worts la tha =sr-
FIIMEN Ming to NOM al Isad sal
an all IND tho 71M of Morely eveXtej
aril tho plogothim ot L pram UM number et Mt
prrbeatt not ommt WM ohm meted, them pm,
lath Iwo to hodlothoopot *Mid Malrlatma.t or lad (
hoo Ma tea am). or et tier mom* et any deterlptionZ
homer, rAtiono et map or prowinfOthor Mode can be
Mar W milt somilthom eamlllthod elf to Vie., S. 7. re
orPar mom hr oth &Mate mama ho *MM. the raid wake
Y Mat dhdrith an to entirely • oil if Mom Ihr
tho meant, M @applied ooly to e Ilidad amber, a pro.
pie motion Is to be made of thalami employed upon the
woolm"
_ _ •

Mr. G. HAMILTON lied given nodes of a clause to tho
'Sect that no holder of land to the extent of half an acre,
should he considered as a destitute person, and the noble lord
(Lord J. Russell) on a former evening, gave him reason ee
believe that he was faveurahlo to that view. He wished ft
ask the noble lord whether he proposed to intrados* on
provision in the Poor-law Bill, so to limit the raid le
exclude such persons, and he further was &sinus a ma
Lining how soon they might expect an intimation fen ,
government of the introduction of any measure et the mate
-set of vagrancy in Ireland ?
Lord J. RUSSELL had already stated tut ho concern*
in the principle of the hon. gentleman's amendment ; at lie
same time he would rather he would bring forward Ilde
clause in the shape he thought proper, in order that MU'
opinion of the house might be ascertained before he deter•
mined on the amount of land, the possession of which should
exclude from the claim to relief. With regard to the Vagrant
Bill, he cool l not then say when it would be brought for-
ward; certainly, it would not be until after the Poor-law
Bill had passed. (Hear.)
MINT PROSECUTIONS -•PAYMENT OF POLICE.
M.. HUM V. ~Meiroel that it had appeared from the pub-
lic papers, that on a trial which Viols place a few days ago
for coining, in which certain policemen were examined as
witnesses, it was stated that it was the rule of the authorities
at the Mint to pay them extra money for their attendance in
such prosecutions. That was thought by the judge a most
objectionable course. He wanted to know from his right
lion. friend whether the s'atement in question was true aa to
the existence of the practice, and if so whether any new re-
gulations were in contemplation to put an end to it for the
future ?
Mr. SHELL had been informed on enquiry that the prac-
tice referred to did exist, and hid existed for a very long
time—formerly to a much greater extent than at present.
Considering, however, that it was a practice liable to extreme
abuse, he had given directions, so far as it was in hie power,
for its discontinuance. (Hear.)

By these means, and looking at the various measure,
which have been taken to bring into operation, with
as little delay as possible, the act of this session, it is
hoped, me long, that the number of men engaged upon
the relief works may be greatly diminished. We look
to these measures as the means of enabling the Armen
to procure the labour necessary for the cultivation of the
soil. and we have every reason to hope that the labourers
themselves, being deprived of the resource of the relief
works, will he the more ready to accept the terms proposed
to them by the farmers. I need hardly take any notice of
the other measures which are now under the consideration
of the house, because the one I have alluded to is of so great
an extent—so totally
.uneeempled in its character, and so
appalling in its magnitude, that the other measures which
are now in progress—measures in respect to drainage—
Mr. Labouchere s letter, and the measures as to fisheries and
the improvement of public works and harbours—though
these are matters undoubtedly deserving of great
attention, I do not propose to enter further into
the consideration of them at present. What I desired
was, to enable the house before the Treasury minute shall be
printed in a voluminous shape, to
Hear,
the course which
the government were pursuing. Hear, hear) I now, sir,
turn to that which is the proper minces of this evening,
and upon which I think it necessary to make some observa-
tions, in consequence of the representations which have been
made to me. A few days ago a memorial, signed by no less
than 64 peers of Ireland, and 43 members of the House of
Commons, was presented to me; and not having made any
general explanation of this bill—not having made any ex-
planation certainly upon it as it is now amended I
thought, looking at the importance of that document, that it
would be mere respectful to the persons who signed it
to take some notice of their representations before asking the
house to go into committee upon the Poor Relief Bill.
These sixty-four peen and forty-three members of parliament
form a list of persons well acquainted with Ireland—many of
them from long residence and having an intimate knowledge
both of that country and England. But, sir, having care-
rally red their representations, I confess I am unable to
agree in the resolutions which they have laid down—(hear,
hear)—reeelutiom which, if followed out, would preclude this
louse frets entertaining at all the question of out-door relief
Ihr theshbobodied. (Hear, hear.) Their third resolution
is le the knowing words :
oat lba risdebs ass *dog eetAsse waist is us aaiaimare
timemed bes bin esidesenedliy lades
eemillus sett smebstniu se wit es by*. same sp.
topoliko Ode see.ett. en/ ratlts of The bet
by ~it Us been &sus bee Wise. ism thsvett
essiseseeled auk bistested eta
iskosw aorta sedenprid
_es Men preihnien areffilbr
asmonsiss owsiossiwir Mu mesh Nine idelly mien dirs.
Mr re psgle,
totems erat4sse relief tellesblebsdied Isbaster tvlb predate end
the sem hammidde esesnqeseeen
gror:Vrith regard le the bat pet of this statement I have
nothing to say, se I do not with to go into any examination
of the reports of the several commissions or parliamentary
committees, but with regard to the latter part, I hare two
observations to make. First, I do not agree that the relief
given during the last twelve months, aceom'oanied by labour,
does so conclusively prove that out-door relief to the able-
bodied, combined with the test of labour, will produce and
perpetuate the evil consequences alluded to, however expen-
sive it may have been. That abuse, which was almost a
necessary attendant upon what we undertook to do is the
relief works, does not at all attach to a poorrate levied upon
the property of Ireland. (Hear.) In the relief works there
was a great readiness to make presentments for advances
from the Treasury for those works, and also a very
great readiness in recommending persons to be employed
upon them. From the beginning it was stated to be a
mama of advances, and many, pressed by immediate want
and the outcry of distress, did not consider that the money so
obtained was to be paid back by the rate-payers of Ireland,
but looked upon it as a rum advanced by the Treasury. Fo r
this reason the system was liable to the abuse complained of.
Amongst the reports I have been reading within the last
few days, it is stated by one that the relief committee put
upon the relief works many of those who were best able to
Ruppert themselves, and who were in possession of several
acres of land ; and that overseers had been appointed who
were themselves farmers to a considerable extent. But it is
obvious, if you impose a rate and say that the destitute are
to be paid out of that rate, and thus make every ratesayer
and every guardian have an interest in the matter— beer,
hear)—it is obvious that they will all feel concern that
those who are 'in independent circumstances shall not be
plated upon the list of 'the destitute, that that list will
thereby be narrowed, and that a constant watch will be kept
ever it to see that it is confined to proper objects of relief.
(Hear.)'The experience of the last twelve months is anything
but conclusive against such relief as we propose to give by
this bill, and there is nothing in the principle of it
which make* it necessary that the out-door relief to the
able-bodied shall be gratuitous. I hold that the poor-
law guardians and commissioners should have the same
power of giving employment, adapted to the situation of the
persons requiring relief, as exists in England. We all
know that in this country, when the workhouse is full end
there are able-bodied labourers to be supported, work is
given to them as a test of their destitution, which enables
the guardians to limit very much the number of perms ap-
pl)ing for relief. We do not intend to propose a different
=mean for Ireland. But there is a further question to
which I must refer, because I have had the honour of re-
ceiving a deputation of gentlemen who have made some re-
presentations to me respecting. the possible abate of oat-door
relief. I said to them, It is quite true that it is very diffi-
cult to prevent out-door relief from being attended with
abuse; it is Moe that there did exist in England very great
abuses, and it may be true that the system is not at
present wholly free from abuse; but what I have to
say to you is this : We have seen a vast number of people in
the greatest state of destitution in Ireland; we are told by
those most conversant with Ireland, who have examined and
made reports upon the subject, that that state of destitution,
although it has been greatly aggravated by the failure of the
potato crop, is not unusual or accidental-(hear, hear)—and
what we ask you is, if the destitute poor are not to be
provided for by outdoor relief when the workhouse is full,
and since you object to my plan now before the House of Com-
mons—what other plan are you prepared to recommend ?"
(Loud cheers.) And to that question, which seemed really
not to have been expected—(laughter)—l got this answer
from one member of the deputation : that the private
charities of Ireland were so extensive' it was not likely
that any person would be allowed to starve--(a laugh)—
while another member immediately observed that he did not
think, with the great change which was taking place in refer-
emu to the culture of the potato, that the same ex-
tent of private charity could henceforth be relied upon.
In that opinion I fully concur. (Hear, hear.) I quite
admit that there has been an immense extent of private
charity in Ireland ; but then it ha. been the charity of the
poor to the very poor—(sheen)—the charity of the small
farmer to the destitute labourer—the charity of the farmers
and resident gentry, generally, to the mendicants and those
who ask for alms. Until the passing of the Poor Law Act
for Ireland, which I had the honour to introduce, and which
I sow propose to extend, I do not believe there was any
burden whatever on the large proprietors--(hear, hear)—
who did not choose to contribute to a private charity. There
was so demand whatever on the peat absentee proprietors,
who did not themselves see the mumble objects of distress.
It was their duty, if not to see, at least to relieve; and who
also, unless they chose it, might avoid altogether—l will
not say any obligation—but any payment for that purpose.
(Neer, bear.) If, then, that be the case, I ask the question
again—seeing that hitherto the destitute in Ireland,
who have not been supported in the workhouse, hare
been supported by the voluntary charity of the resident
classes in Ireland, and of these chiefly by the poorer claws
—that the farmer has contributed a portioa of hb potatoes, or
of his own meals, whatever it might be, to support the men-
dioant who called at his door—l sok, when the cultivation of
the potato will be greatly diminished, so as to alter altogether
the social state of the country, to whom, then, are the desti-
tute people of Ireland to look for support t (Loud cries of
" hear.') I must say that the deputation to which I am
referring, at once rejected the notion that they could come in
I other years to the imperial exchequer, and ask for further
loam, advances, or grants. Not one of them expected that
such • step could be resorted to, and I readily do them
the justice of admitting It. (Hear, hear.) But I must say
that the economy of the question still remains—how are we
to expect that those destitute perms will be supported ? I
really know no way by which it an be done
unless we resolve that the measure now before
the house shall per into a law, guarded and
secured by all the fences which the house may think requi-
site, but still declaring that • person who is starring, and has
an ICSOIIIOI, shall be relieved, in the workhouse if there is
room, sad out of it, if it be fall. (Cheer.) In Riving this
Cifitthe house, I think I can place it upon very
o grounds. I can place it In the tint plum upon the
Cunthat, after what I have stated, no man can accuse
cil the other house of parliament, or parliament col-
lectively, of having been niggardly to Ireland in her es-
tremity. No man can my that en this time of need the
lontrilmtiene the. ham been mede whether collected Pr the
oompnleory taxation of the people or from gifts voluntarily
offered by them, whether you consider the millions we have
proposed to vote, or the hundreds of thousands now being
collected in the country, whether yen take the one sum or
the other, no man can accuse the people of Great Britain of
a went of liberality and generosity in the present circum-
stances of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) I feel that I ant justified
in saps( this: though perhaps I should hardly say It if it
wars net that such' repeated alums are made—l do not

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL-GOVERNMENT
MEASURES FOR IRELAND.

On the question of going into committee on the Poor
Relief Bill,
Lord J. RUSSELL said, before you leave the chair, air, I
wish to state, generally, what have been the lateet proceed-
ings of thegovernment with respect to the lamentable state of
affairs now existing in Ireland, and to all attention to one
or two of the principal provisions of the bill before the
house. In the midst of the present aithcti.in in Ireland, I
think it is due to the house, looking at the darkness by which
we are surrounded, and the peril, which are before us, to ac-
quaint them with the steps which are being taken from time
to time by the government, and with those measures which
may at a future period have &serious influence on the destiny
of that country, and the empire. (Hear, hear.) The house
is alresiy acquainted both with the steps which we have
taken before the commencement of the cession, and also with
DE: continued refusal which we gave to entertain some other
measures of large import, to which our attention has bean
repeatedly called. But, air, while we agreed that with ma-
pert to the supply of provisions there should be an amount
of about 10,000 tons always in store in the various depots in
those parts of Ireland where there are no regular
markets, we have uniformly declined to undertake the fee&
ing of the pecide of Ireland by the importation of provisions.
And likewise, sir, while we consent/ d that a sum of not
more than 60,0001. should be laid out for seed, believing that
it might be more easily purchased by the government than
by individuals, we have steadily refused to undertake the
cultivation—the ploughing and the sowing of the land of
Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Thus, also, while we have aug-
mented to a very small degree the sum which is applicable
for the removal of emigrants, who may be in a destitute con-
dition, from Quebec to Montreal, and those other places
further up the country, where their labour may be more in
demand, we have refused to become responsible for
the conduct and promotion of emigration generally from this
country to the colonies. (Hear, heir.) In respect to many
of these refusals, wo have been of opinion in the first place
that the quantity of corn and provisions of all kinds would
be greeter if the regular trade was not interfered with by
the government, than if they, by any act of theirs, interfered
with the purchase of supplies, and day by day I am con-
firmed in the correctness of that view. We hays been of
opinion also that the cultivation of the land would have been
impeded and ant promoted, had the government undertaken,
by means of loans or gifts or public employment, to promote
such cultivation. We are of opinion, likewise, that the number
of emigrants from Irelandto the United States and the colonies
will be more considerable if the government leave the emi-
grants to their own resources, or to the means that may be
furnished to them by their friends or their landlords, than
it would be were any large government grant for the pur-
pose proposed. Oa these topics I will de no more than state
what have been our opinions and our conduct. But, with
regard to another question, it has been thought that we have
unduly interfered with the employment or the people, by
devoting large sums in the shape of advances front the Trea-
sury, in order to furnish labour for the destitute people of
Ireland. It is undoubtedly true that for this purpose the
advances have been very great ; and I will now state what
has been the amount up to the end of February, of the
sums which have been expended on the relief works.
In the months of September and October last, the amount
so expended was 54,0001. and some odd hundreds; in Nov.,
it was 298,0001. and some odd hundreds; in December,
646,0001. and some odd hundreds ; in January this year it
was 7313,0001 ; and in February the amount was 944,1411.,
independent of the expenses incurred through the commis-
sariat and other public departments for the same purpose.
The number of persons employed upon these works has,
during the lent month, very much increased. The
number for the week ending the 6th of Febrnary,
was 615,065 ; the 13th, 605,715 ; the 20th, 666,749 ;
and for the week ending the 27th, 703,228. Now, on look-
ing back at the various proceedings, I am firmly persuaded
that unless a very large outlay had been made from the
national tremnry, very many of those persons who have been
so employed and paid wages, must have died from want of
the means of obtaining food. (Hear.) I think this very
large outlay was justified, and is to be justified, by the great
urgency of the case, and by the dread of allowing the num-
ber of persons, which unfortunately we know to have been
very great who died from want of food, to be immensely
and enormously increased. But while during the months of
November, December, January, February, and the half of
the month of March, which has gone by, we have continued
these works on this great scale, we have never been insen-
sible to the milt attendant upon such employment, and
which evils are at present, as the works have increased,
more felt and considerably aggravated, as compared
with what they were in the early part and middle
of the winter. In the first place, the immense increase in
the number of persona requiring employment—a number
which has gone on increasing from 30,000 or 40,000 at the
commencement, to 708,000—(hear)—has made it almost im-
possible for the Board of Works, however much they may
have exerted themselves, and do exert themselves, to keep
that due order and regularity which ought to be observed in
public works (Hear.) Let me say, at the same time, that
the degree to which order and regularity has been observed,
is a matter not only of praise but of astonishment. (Hear.)
This has been effected, in the first place, by the exertions of
the officers of the Board of Works ; in the next place, by
the exertions of the military officers, who have been acting
under their authority; and last] by the exertions of the execu-
tive government of Ireland, and the military and constabulary
at their disposal. The consequence of the exertions of these
several departments and Alava has been, that with this enor
mous increase in the number of people employed, though
the regularity of the works has not been undisturbed, it
is impossible, where to many are employed, to say whether
the due quantity of work has bean performed by each indi-
vidual, in the same way and with the some certainty as when
• certain camber of have under their superintendence

a limited number of men. Yet, there has been no general
• confusion in the progress of the works, and the regular pay-
ments have gone on from week to week, without any instance
of the money destined for that purpose being Intercepted by
pay-clerks or others employed in superietendine—without
any instance of dishonesty or peculation—and without any
Ware in the pa tof the men engaged. I make
this es a general statement, not denying that there
may hare been some exceptions, and it is a remit which, I
think, is highly creditable to the various departments in In-
land which have had thrown upon them, without previous
preparation, the conduct and management of this treat ma-
chine. (Hear.) But, sir, while one evil which we have ex-
perienced has been irregularity in the performance of the
work, another has been that the men employed on these
works, many of them from the want of due sustenance, have
been physically unable to perform that amount of task-work
whit should enable them to obtain ruflicient wages
to pay for their food ; and the overseen end
others placed over them, not wishing to compel them
to perform tasks to which they were unequal, or,
on the other hand, to make their payments insuffi-
cient to procure the food they require, hare reduced
the amount of the task-work ; consequently the quantity of
work performed has not been an equivalent for the
money paid, and the cost of the labour has exceeded the
value of the work. This again has led to every kind of irre-
gularity ; for while many could net perform the task
assigned rem phyakel inability, others who were eige sod
strew lore haw advantage of the lenity with whisk the
perthureses ef With* work sraeinsieted on, in *dr, woes,
to awe se kith litain—at ten and eleven o'clock in the morn-
ing, sisthowthid they as they Invest work on twain* they
were not to be essithed to peelieular hours for nab. and
going. But a further evil eta, and one which is
Early islt at this seadloo, is aka spoken of by the i=knet'
Works in their report for the bet month. 1L whir
lord reed the ibliesiag menet :
Inn amiss must be made to smasentifelitirill•=t
bet the polio 'Awe as rissibless, at eneent, to andl
Be an omit wwh preetleable m sun ess essersaire tinm that tbe
meets shish townie progress are selem•:::7lausi as re.
if yob. Imployessei hem the ismer at immat, sewed in
Isseenthe mensgegispell angle eneasemit of ,
tisk umbel. sea nerdy brimillsimig elleniel eh and we 'ease- '
Clirmend tali; es WI as berm wires liskseek km
ksbeireillmesely se sem et alliavir wpm le Sas
Ithe threw dos welary whose wsweel rah haw bets y
Inessessd weft the tmemetigg amber if =ism or o-
w/am bissagm, MS is sees bun le. le Is SL thy.
Iseeseetithile if these refeassfsessa, seerobstheed al tisy

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 13, 1847.

speak of *harem against the government, for they are a fair
target for such—(a laugh)—but charges !upshot the podia-
lie/nest and the people of Great Britain, who I must say,
do not deserve them. (Hear, bear.) But, in the next place,
I say that what I propose to you as a permanent law, is al-
ready • permanent law in England; a law which we in
England have thought consistent with the wealth of the
country, with the security of the country, and with every
regard which is due to the property of the country. (Hear,
hear.) We have for • long time past had a poor-law which
provides not only for the sick, the infirm, and the impotent,
but which likewise provides that the able-bodied shall be set
to work, and thereby entitle himself to relief. Let it not be
said that that poor-law, and the poor-rate levied under it,
gave rise to abuses which have been continually complained
of, because those abuses have been considered, and co
ected to
reform—a reform, as many think, very searching and stern--
and yet, in the 10 years after this law was made, England
and Wales spent no leas than 49,000,0001. in relieving the
poor of the country. (Hear.) And, as I believe, in the
view no; only of humanity and of religious and moral duty,
but upon a pure economical consideration of the wealth and
security of the country—(hear, hear) —it was good economy
to lay out that sum of money for such an object. (Hear,
bear.) I have, here, various extracts from different reports,
showing the number of persons who have received relief at
various times under the poor-law of England, and I find
that in 1840, the total number of paupers relieved was
1,194,000; in 1841, 1,299,000; and in 1842, 1,429,000,
making 9 per cent. upon the population of the country.
(Hear, hear.) Now the mode in which these numbers
were increased, and the reason why they were increased,
was this—that during those years we were visited witn
deficient harvests, and had at the same time a number of
peoplein wanted employment and ood. Immediately that that
took place, relief and employment were provided by the
poor-law unions in parishes, and the rates were enormously
increased. I have here • statement, which I took from •
speech of the hon. member for Bolton, in the year 1843 or
1843, in which he says, with regard to the mortality, that
the number of persona who died in Leicestershire in 1039
was 1 in 48, and in 1840 it was 1 in 39 ; that in Nottingham-
shire the number in 1839 was I in 47, in 184011 was 1 in 35
and that in Lancashire the number in 1839 was 1 in 35, and
in 1840 it was 1 in 31. But the poor-rate, which in 1835-6
and 7 had been 11,9001., rose in 1842 to 16,7401. That is the
mode in which the English paor-law meets the destitution
of this country in a year—l will not say of distress resembling
that of Ireland, but of more than ordinary distress, and
when there was • considerable want of employment
and food. And what I pr pose to the booms, as re-
gards the future and permanent condition of Ireland, is
this—that when from a good harvest and • tolerably fair
amount of employment, that country sinks to a bed harvest
and • deficiency of employment, the same mode and amount
of relief may be given to the people as there is now given in
England. I do not propose that there should be exactly the
same measure for both countries, or that those parts of the
law of England which I consider to have been connected
with the abuses of the old law should be introduced into the
new law for Ireland. I am of opinion, thsLin intro-
ducing this law, we plums a gre It advantage in hiving the
workhouses already established. The abuses of the law in
England took place when the workhouse test had been
abandoned with the act of 1796. But we took care when
we first introduced a poor-law into Ireland to esta-
blish workhouses ; and, therefore, the proprietors and
guardians of the unions in reland will always
have that test. They will be enabled to apply it,
and to say, " if you are destitute, you shall be provided for
in the workhouse." I cannot myself think when the infirm
and aged are removed from the workhouses, that they are
likely to be full, except in times of unusual distress; and in
such times a power will be given to increase them—a power,
which I think may be made useful as a check against im-
pactors and the demands of idly inclined persons. There is
another part of this question which I do not like to touch in
detail, but to which, nevertheless, I wish briefly to refer, as it
forms with me a very eogent reason fur prening this bill upon
the house. I quite admit that the present calamity has been
so great that no attempt under the poor-law, with the popu-
lation which existed in Ireland at the commencement of
1846, would have been fully equal to meet the emergency.
I do not believe it would. Most unfortunately for Irelind,
by, as it were, the general connivance of landlord, tenant,
and labourer, there has grown up in that country a miserably
destitute population, and, added to that, an immense army of
mendicants, whose number and frightful condition have been
pourtrayed in the reports of the Commissioners, to which I
have on other occasions called the attention of the house. I do
not think, with such a state of population, and a considerable
portion of them on the borders of famine, that such a ca-
lamity as has occurred, could have been met by the propri-
etors and gentry of Ireland with adequate measures of relief.
But I must add to this, that although a great number of
resident gentry have exercised their utmost energies, and have
been content to forego their usual mode of living, and many
of the expenses neresaary even for the education of their
families, I do not think upon the whole, as a body, taking
the residents and absentees, and every
.person who has part
of the 13,000,000!. of assessed property in Ireland, that their
exertions have been what they ought to have been under the
circumstances. (Hear.) I have collected this from the frequent
statements that are made upon the subject—that si bile
the resident gentry have munificently contributed their one,
two, or three hundred pound., many of those to whom
letters have been addressed have not contributed any thing.
Upon that ground, in the first place, I say that property has
not done all that it ought to have done. (Hear, hear.) I
must also say that there are amongst the residents, persons who
ought to go further in the way of contributions and of absti-
nence from those things which may be termed luxuries, than
they have hitherto done. I will not say more on this point;
but thus much I felt bound to say, for it pressed upon my
mind, end I consider it to be a good reason, if such should
be the impression of others as well, why we should not leave
the destitute poor of Ireland in future to hazard and &mi.
dent. (Hear.) I am told indeed thst with regard to some
parts of Ireland the population is so great and the rental so
inadequate to their subsistence, that property must
altogether break down under the obligations which this law
wit impose. I do not believe that that will be the ease. I
believe in the capacity of the soil of Ireland, and in the wil-
lingness to labour on the part of the people of Ireland.
(Hear, hoar.) I believe that the soil may be made far more
productive, and the general produce much greater than what
it now L. I confess that, as the matter now stands, the pay-
ments on account of the destitute poor must take a large pro-
portion of the rental which is obtained. But we cannot say
that such is the case at present in Ireland, and I think we
may at least attempt to give some further proportion than
has been given of late yearn towards the support of the des-
titute poor in that country. (Hear, hear.) I find that
in the year 1841, the expenditure for the relief and
mainteasoce of the poor in England was 6,009,7031.,
being a rate of Is. 71d. in the pound. In Ire-
land, on the contrary, upon the annual value of rate-
able property of 13,204.2341., the expenditure for the poor
was only 298,8131., being a rate of only 51d. Don't let
any one suppose that I quote this as a reproach to persons
.of property in Ireland, that they pay a rate under 6d. in the
pound, because in doing so they only act in conformity with
the law, and if they proposed to' pay more, the poor-law
cmantimioners would have told them that it could not be
levied. But I do say, that there are those in Ireland who
may be further assessed for the relief of the destitute poor,
and on whom we may fairly call for that purpose. When
that assessment becomes much larger it will be the time to
show it is a greater burden than they can bear, but certainly
this is not the moment they can justly urge such -•
complaint. (Hear, bear.) With regard to a arum which
has recently attracted a great deal of public attention—l
mean the Union of Skihbereen —at the accounts of the deaths
in which, and the number of persons approaching death from
absolute starvation, every one has been shocked, • gentle-
man who called upon me gave me • letter from a resident in
that union, in which he states that, although the rated pro-
perty in it was estimated, according to the assessment, at
only 98,0001., the actual value of the property was 130,0001
• year ; that until last September there had been no rate
exceeding 6d. in the pound ; that in that month a rata of 9d,
in the pound had been made, but that that rate had
been levied. (Hear, hear.) There is one instance; and in
the corrsepondence before the house there are many others
of wakes in which, even with the present law, there
has not been that due assessmentand levying of
rates for the relief of the poor which those
possessed d property are legally subject to. I ear then that
those are reasons for enacting such • measure as I now pro-
pose (Land cries of " Hear.") I am aware that by such a
bill, I propose to enact a law which differs, in a most impor-
tant respect, from that which is now considered to be the
law Its Scotland. I believe that the law of Scotland, as
enacted shortly after the revolution of 1688, did make a pro-
vision which would have been applicable to the able-bodied
poor ; but the interpretvion put upon that law by the
comree of justice, has confined it to the infirm and sick. -How-
ever, there has not been in Scotland in pest years, or even in
the present year, any such case as should induce me to wish
to alter or amend the act, which was introduced by the
right hon. gentleman the member for Dorchester two year.
ago. I believe that act is conformable to the habits of the
Scottish people ; I believe there exists in Scotland such a
union of all classes as induces them, in any
period of distress, to give their utmost assistance to
each other. I know that at the present moment many
proprietors is Scotland have been nearly ruined by their
age t efforts to save the people from starving. (Hear,
hear.) I believe they do consider themselves under the
°becalm, if not legally. at least morally, to use every exer-
tion to prevent or palliate destitution amongst the people.
Is Ireland I think the law ought to be more conformable to
that of England. I do not think the people of England
would be safe if there was not a law in this country enti-
tling the able-bodied to relief. (Hear, hear.) I was much
coocerned in the framing of the Poor-law Amendment Act
of 1834; but I do not remember, at any time we were re.
forming the law, that the government of the day ever con-
templated depriving the starving able-bodied poor from their
claim to relief eat of the poor-rates of the country. I
believe that that enactment is necessary for the peace and
security of this country. I believe it will be found con-
ducive to the peace and security of Ireland as well.
(Hear, hear.) We must expect a great change as
soon as other culture shall take the place of that
of the potato. We must expect that many of those
who have had little holdings, to which they were attached
on account of the crop of potatoes they yielded, will assume
the position of able-bodied labourers, and will from time to
time be thrown into • state of destitution. I believe that
such a law as I now propose will induce the proprietors and
farmers to give, in consequence, a greater quantity of em-
ployment than they otherwise would do. I believe that
when they see that thnen man mast be maintained, they will
say to themselves that tney are fine able-bodied fellows,
whose labour might be made productive, and that they
would prefer finding labour for them to maintaiaing them
out of the pear-rates. In this way I coalmine bins imaussall
employment will be given to the able-bedied pagmllaiina of
the country. (Hear, hear.) There an sum Vim show
lions which we propelsie latreiestee, best to whiek I
need scarcely allude _
_One d than ken sald, pragnead
in Ireland, as it pawl whoa I dead It In Mt

house, considerable dientisfaction—l mew the proposal
that one-half of the whole body of guardians should
be formed of magistrates being ex-officio guardians,—l think
that this feeling is founded on the old belief, to which I see
one of the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland still cline,
that those who are in the position of magistrates are hostile
to the religious rights and political freedom of their fellow-
' rountr4 men. If I thought that such a feeling was to con-
tinue, if I thought that the body of magistrates in the coun-
try holding property were always to be considered by the
farmers and labourers as their enemies, I should doubt very
much of the propriety of placing on the board of guardians
en
equal number of the two clines. But I bAieve we arc
on the eve of a very great change in Ireland ; and I think
that the resolution to which I referred in the early part of
my address this evening, adopted at a meeting that took
place in Ireland, together with the accounts which I hear
nom time to time of the 00-operation of the clergy of
all persuasions, are symptoms of that great change.
(Cheers.) I think the Protestant claws boils be
Engla al and Ireland were for a long time the adverbs of
supremacy and exclusion. But the Protestant dean be
England had no adversary to deal with, while the Preesseme
classes in Ireland were brought into immediate collides with,
the moat numerous portion of their fellow-countrymen.
Sentiments of ill-will grew up between the two—the airs
endeavouring to maintain that which they considered the
due attribute of a pre.emineoce gained at the expulsion
of the Stuarts, and which at the same time they oonsideenil
as a security for the permanence co tne constitution of those
realms—the others lass [oinking, at I believe most justly, thee
they were entitled to equal privileges in the land of gado
birth, and that no other class ought to claim privileges sr
monopolies of any kind to their prejudice. (Hear, bac)
But I trust that these queetiene—most of them elm*
solved—are all on their way to solution, not only by legion-
'tive enactment, but by the influence of popular and national
feeling. (Hear, heir.) I should despair of the working of
this or any other bill, if I were to suppose that class was to
be against class, and clergy against clergy, in the manner Is
which they have been in omit time.. But I do hope, although
the transition may be accompanied with some re-action, that
we are in course of transition towards those times, when Li
the Irish will set together for the benefit of Ireland, and
when they will all acknowledge that we in England
have no wish to debar them from any prints% ,
or right, or any object of ambition which
naturally their due. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.)—
And undoubtedly, judging from those symptorws,we may hops
that, whether es regards ex-offleio guardians or any other
relation of society, we shall see Protestant and Catholic, we
shall see Tory and Whig, Radial and Repealer differi.!Elin
no doubt they will in future times, on political qu
yet blend together in social harmony, end eonsbineli
for the common and usual, yet most important, business
of life ; in the functions of the administration of justice, in
the forwarding of public works, in advancing agricultural
improvement, in the relief of the destitute, and in all such
social acts, as if they were one nation and without such dis-
tinctions as would make ens bear ill will to another. (Loud
cheers.) It is with this hope, and aot with a view to ass
premacy of party among the ex-officio guardians, thetl
proposed We clause in the bill. I have now explained
views of the government with regard to this bill. It insmitted
the other night that there are in the cabinet two eagle=
Irish proprietors, end their names were meth Sal di
was supposed that they had influenced ita
vourably to property in that mosey, and camel on wise
bias towards the claims of landed proprietors. They me
parties with us in proposing this bill. (Hear, hear.) If it
imposes burdens on the proprietors of land in Ireland, they
have added the weight of their authority to its incredulities.
and they are prepared to bear Unburdens which it hopes
Upon that authority therefore, and in the name at the epo
vernment to which I belong, I propose this bill, and ask yea
to go live committee upon it. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that the srech of the
noble lord war divided into two parts; first, as to wire
had been dose, and next, what would be done by this IW.
He (Mr. O'Brien) had taken his share in the set midi
passed at the end of last sesasion, but these we
two great errors with reference to that megewszei.
When the noble lord advised the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland to deviate from the provisions of that bill,
(by which counsel he admitted the failure) be mess's& the
powers of • minister, and he had to come to der
an indemnity, which was readily granted. WLt be (Kr.
O'Brien) complained of was, that when the goverment
found that act bad failed, they refused to listen to the advise
of those who were conversant with the internal affairs of
Ireland. If theorem of taxstion had been made smaller, there
would not have been half the number of persona on the
public works,—hundreds of acres would have been gm
which were now barren, and the money far better experied.
a. had, however, listened in vain to the speech of the =hie
lied for the promise of a smaller territorial division. The
sett error committed by the noble lord with referent*
to that measure was one indicated by the question asked by
Colonel Jones, Who are the labouring poor ? That shoeM
first be ascertained, and everything will depend on the ant
has to whom relief is to be granted." No answer wee
Is this until the 23rd October, and then came Mr.
lesee circular with reference to the 61. rate. This yes &
meet error: With regard to the bill now before the house,
he must say, that in the main, he cordially agreed in what
had been said by the noble lord with regard to out-deoe-
relief. Looking to the circumstances in which Ireland
sass placed be thought that great experiment must be tried,
and he was prepared to support it. But the noble lord
could not exaggerate the alarm and anxiety on this subject
which was felt in Ireland, not by those whom he might sup-
pose, but be philanthropic and charitable persons who be-
lieved that it would ateorb property without relieving dis-
tress. The noble lord at the head of the government
had stated his conviction that the principle of out-door re-
lief must be applied to Ireland ; and he (Mr. O'Brien)
agreed with him. The noble lord also was of opinion that
the constitution of the boards of guardians should be al-
tered, ea that one-half of them should he exsfzeio guardians
as justices of the peace. lie (Mr. O'Brien) thought this
was of the greatest possible advantage, and that
the poor would find the greatest benefit from
it. The noble lord had said that the exertions
cf thew who were possessed of property had not
been whet thee should have been in such a crisis. He
(Mr. O'Brien) did not think they had been either; but still
he would say that they had no right to try the landlords of
Ireland by the Labour-rate Act. When the area of taxation
was made so large, the landlord was alarmed, and thought
he saw ruin staring him in the fen; and what wee stated
by the Roman Catholic prelate alluded to by the nobie lord,
was perfectly true, that when the good and bad
the resident on his property, end the absentee, wee
up together, and were called together in baronies, the popu-
lation of those who were absent attended in greater numbers
than the others. Those to whom the ales of the starving
people should be addressed, wen at Hoene and at Naples;
while those who remained at home and did their duty, baud
it impossible to come forward and improve their estates es they
would if the area of taxation had been smaller. Thatwoold be
the difficulty which would have to be met whatever tbey
legislated for Ireland; for it went to the root of like triode
matter. While it would be easy to swamp the property of
Ireland, it would not be easy to put an end to pauperne•
He would urge the noble lard at the head of the government
to leave the question of the territorial divisions of Ireland u
they were at present, and not to consider this bill as a final
measure, with reference to the area of taxation ; but rather
let the noble lord, either later in the present, or early next
session, invite the attention of the house to the conduct of
the various boards of guardians, and the resolutions recently '
presented to him by noblemen and gentlemen connected
with Ireland ; and, omitting now the 10th clause wholly
from the bill, reserve the whole question of territorial divi-
sion for future consideration. (Hew.) If the noble lord
.

would leave the matter to the commissioners, or the Board of
Guardian§ or those who had property in Ireland, he (Mr.
Stafford O'Brien) should be satisfied ; but if the noble lord
proceeded against the expressed opinions and wishes of all
those bodies, he would take upon himself a moot merinos
responsibility. Let the noble lord make. if he chose, • national
rating, and pay the poor of both countries out of a general
fund, but, between that course and the principle h
urging, there was no medians. (Hear, bear, hear.)
asked was, that no one should be allowed to starve is Ire-
land, and for this he did not ask parliament to give anything
to Ireland, except to extend the principle of relief, and to
give to the magistracy pawns which they did not at present,
but which they ought to peones. By an extension of the
principle of relief, a feeling of self-reliance on their own
energies would be created amongst the people of Ireland,
which, though much talked of both by the present and past
governments, had been excited. In the noble lord's
hand., therefore, he left the 10th clause without
discussing it, and he trusted that by a softening of all
permanent good might result to Ireland from the a
visitation with which it had pleased Almighty God to visit
that country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. SCROPE thought the hon. member who had
just eat down might well have spared the house a dis-
cussion upon the question of electoral divisions until they
had arrived M committee at the 10th clause. With re-
ference to the question of out-door relief to the able-
bodied, he (Mr. P. &rope) must expesas the deep and
heartfelt gratification with which he had listened
to the declaration on that point conveyed in the speech of
his noble friend at the head of the government—a declaration
which he was sure would find an echo in every part of Great
Britain, and in a great portion of Ireland. The time had
arrived when the people of England thought that Ireland
ought to bear local taxation for the support of her own poor,
for they knew from experience that with them the system
had led to the development of her resources of industry and
wealth. Early in the time of Elizabeth, England was but
another Tipperary. Agrarian outrages prevailed, crime
reigned, arable land was turned into pasture, and the people
drivento wander on the face of the mirth. The itateeinee, how-
ever, of that daT adapted the simple remedy of giving to every
honest, industrious man, who was able and willing to labour,
the certainty of not being reduced to starvation, if he had
not the means of earning his livelihood by honest employ-
ment. Enact such a randy for Ireland now, and crime
would be got rid of; there would be no further necessity for
coercion bills ; energy and capital would find their way into
the country, and develop the resources with whieh
deuce had blessed it. But the question assumed still greater
importance, when the present condition of Ireland was con-
sidered. Large numbers of Malt poor were continually
locating themselves in this country—thus increasing poor. rates
in England. Without questioning the right of the Irish poor to
settle in this country, the maintenance of the existing laws was
unjust, not only to the inhabitants of Ireland, but to those of
England, whose earnings were by this means reduced. The
evil was just now seriously aggravated by the extraordinary
proceedings going on in Ireland, for the purpose of clearing
estates on a large scale by mean, of ejectments and civil bill
processes. In such circumstances, was it not, above all things,
needful to remove that difference between the laws of th e
two countries which led to this growing evil ? Under the
influence of such a law as was now proposed, it might
fairly be hoped that the population would be
raised to a condition of comparative comfort. At present,
the date of agriculture in Ireland was mast lamentable;

everywhere the drainage was neglected, and there was the
most obvious want of farm buildings in every direction.
This was confirmed by the highest authorities. It wunselmrsto
talk of emigration until the unemployed labour wurightly di-
reAed ; and then it would be seen whether there was really
any surplus of labour. In this statement he entirely em-
curred, fully believing that ample and profitable employ-
ment might be found for the Irish labourers in Ireland it
self. One condition of out-door relief, if Its understand
aright the provisions of this bill, war that such relief should
not be given till the workhouses were full This, he feared,
I would operate injuriously, unless a discretionary power wan ex-
tended to the guardians to afford relief in cases of great exi-
gency. Another objection to the bill uit stood was, that
while recognising the right to out door-door relief, there did
not appear to be any means provided for rendering
that right available. A stringent law for com-
pelling relief, in cases of destitution, was necessary in
Ireland, much more than for this country, where
the principle of parochial relief had been recognised for
centuries. In the hope that the various riagge.tions which
he had thrown out would he favourably considered by the
noble lord at the head of the government, and that the bill
would be amended accordingly, he would conclude by con-
' gratulating the house and the country on the prospect which
at length presented itself of the people of Ireland being
I rescued from their present deplorable condition.
Mr. GREGORY said that the English poor-law, in
recognising the right to out-door relief on the part of the
able-bodied poor, had only gone to the extent of authorising
that relief till such time as the pauper could be set to work ;
and he was persuaded that the measure now proposed, by
recognising, at one stroke of the pen, the right to relief and
1 the right to be set to work, would produce the most lament-
: able resuhs. What had the right to relief and the setting to
work done for Ireland during the last eighteen months ?
The bungling operation of the Labour Rate Act could not
be urged as a reason why the principle had not worked bene-
ficially • for in every put of the country presentmentsessiona
had been hastily convened, and money had been unsparingly
voted for giving employment to the destitute on the public
works. I t tended to nothing but confusion,such confusion as had
been exhibited at presentment sessions in Ireland lately. It
had also induced persons having money in savings' banks in
Ireland, and having plenty to support themselves, to rash
to seek for employment on the public works. It had also
led men to leave works on private property, and to leave
agricultural employment, to work under the Labour-rate
Act. On his calculation, if all those who would
be entitled to support under this act were sup-
: plied with it, 11,375,0001. would be found necessary
' for that purpose. That was nearly double the real income of
Ireland. It was on account of the character and dispo-
sition of the people of Ireland, and not through any
disposition to shrink from the imposition placed on them to
support the poor, that he opposed this system. They were
ready to submit to a posor-law test , they were prepared to
have their property taxed for the purpose of affording an in•
creased workhouse communication between themselves and

the poor, but they begged that they might not have inflicted
upon them a bill which would injure the poor more than the
rich.

Mr. D. BROWNE differed with the member for Northamp-
tonshire, who stated that it was his wish that the English poor
law should be extended to Ireland. He agreed with the
hon. member for Northamptonshire, for he believed that
the present measure woo not sufficiently comprehensive. It
was not a full and efficient remedy for the exuding distress.
The government in introducing this bill were influenced by
two parties the people of England who were of opinion that
the land of Ireland ought to supprt the people, and the
Irish landlords who wished to escape the responsibilities to
which their posemsions made them liable. It woe the inten-
tion of this bill that those who possessed more this an sere
of land should not be relieved. It so happened that in many
cues in Ireland those who possessed three or four acres of
land were as little removed from destitution as those who
possessed only one. This generally arose out of the tyranny
of the Irish landlords, such tyranny as was unequalled in
any country in the world. He objected to tli's
bill because it increased the number of ex-officio
guardians, and he was sure that the Secretary for
Ireland, or her Majesty's Resentment, never intro-
duced a principle which would be nets unpopular.
He was sorry that the bill touched the sheerest principle,
and he hoped the Irish members would make a stand against
this clause. He did not agree with rating electoral divisions.
If he adopted the principle at all, he would take the smaller
territorial divisions suggested by the hon. member for North-
amptonshire (Mr. Stafford O'Brien). He thought it was ad-
visable to make property, as much as possible, responsible
for the burden of its individual distress ; but the system of
rating divisions would induce guardians to refuse relief.
Outdoor relief was desirable; but be would have out door
labour es a test, and nothing could be more
advantageous for this purpose than the bill of
the government for reclaiming waste lands.
Capt. BATESON gave the government credit for the best
intentions towards Ireland, but he opposed the principle of
out-door relief to the able-bodied.

Sir W.MOLES ORTH said that the hen . member who bad
! just addressed the house considered that if outdoor relief was
given to Irish paupers the landlords would be rained, and that
he opposed any poor law having such an object. He would ask
for what purpose was the Irish poor law originally instituted?
! According to the report of the Poor-law Commissioners the
object of the Poor law was to make provision for the relief
of the destitute in Ireland, and it was expected that by so
doing agrarian outrages would be put an end to, that mendi-
cancy aces vagrancy would gradually diminish, and that the
people would be socially and morally improved. Had these
results been attained ? They had not ; and though Ireland
had exported 2,000,000 quarters of grain and 1,000,000 head
of cattle, which was enough for the support of 2,000,000 of
persons for a year, and though the deposits in the saving's
banks had increased, a large portion of the population would
perish but for the aid of England. (Hear, hear.) There-
fore the present Poor-law in Ireland appeared to hint to be
inefficient. In order to relieve the destitute in
Ireland to the same extent as was done in England, the
amount of workhouse accommodation should be increased

fourfold, and this would be insufficient if those who received
out-door relief in England were to receive in-door relief in
Ireland. He did not think that relief should be given
to the able-bodied except when the workhouse was
full, and then only under very pressing circumstances.
Then came the question, whether Irish property
should not he bound to support the destitution of Ireland.
In England they were bound to support the poor, even if
I the whole of their rental was eaten up. (Hear, hear.)
They did not complain, or murmur, or threaten, but they
expected that a similar obligation would be imposed on the
possessors of Irish property. (Hear, hear.) The question
wig, were the people of Ireland to perish by starvation, or
was it expected that the people of England should support
them ? (Hear, hear.) Men would not starve as long as the
means of living could be obtained by force or fraud. They
would wage war againet society and the laws in order toilet.
It was at one time attempted to put down destitution in
England by force, and it was said that seventy
thousand paupers were hung in the reign of Henry Vlll.,but
the attempt failed, and in the reign of Elisabeth the prin-
ciple of a poor-law was adopted. As lam as an efficient
poor-law was withheld from Ireland, agrarian outrages, men-
dicancy, anffivagrancy would subsist, and no coercion bills
or penal laws would paten end to them. The people ought to
have a right to relief. Who was to pay for that relief-England
or Ireland ? The alternative was au efficient poor-law fur Ire-
land or apermanent drain upon England, foras had been well
said, the wave of Irish distitution that broke on the western
coast of England would flow over the entire country.
He would conclude by observing that there were two pro-
blems to be solved with regard to Ireland, neither of which
could be solved separately ; the one was, to induce the able-
bodied Irishman to desire steady and continuous employ-
ment the other was to afford him that steady and continu-
ous employment. He believed that the means he had
pointed out would tend to attain these ends, but
the Irish proprietors were the persons who must exert
themselves to carry them out. (Hear, hear.) It
was on their exertions that everything must depend, and
there was much for them to do. It was said that they were
merely the nominal owners of their estates ; in act:bank-
rupts. If that were the fact, they were a CMS to their
country and to their order. They most be got rid of, their
effects meld off like those of bankrupt shopkeepers, and
their property transferred to hands which might be expected
' efficiently to work it. (Hear, bear.) The salvation of
Ireland could only be worked out by Irish proprietor., and
if the present race were unequal to the task, a more efficient
one must be substituted. If they put their hands brevel to the
work, much good might be done, but if they were fain
I or epithetic May God help them, for man cannot."
Mr. SHAW had been so mt., te the eatery rased against
the government on megsent Kalmar lingisimry relief measures.
He lied felt that their negisenigabi le open to objections
on principle; and be alms f allowance should
be made for measures 110 meet a sudden
' and trying emergency.haseer—=, ). But he could
not make the same allowing' tor the permanent measurel which the noble lord had that evening introduced, either as
to the time of its introduction, or the principle of outdoor
relief to the able-bodied which formed its beair. He believed
that the present was the first time in which the noble lord
had come forward to advocate such a principle, and that he
did so spinet his own judgment, as he certainly did against
his own recorded opinions. It was a breach of faith towards
those who had supported the original Irish poise law, and
was in contradiction to the principle of the English act, which
contemplated doing away as soon as possible with all out-
door relief to the able-bodied. (Hear, bear.) He
deprecated the introduction of this measure at • time
like the present, when there was so strong a feeling 'mani-
fested against Ireland in this country. (Oh, oh !) He ad-
mitted that the pecuniary contributions raised in England
for the relief of Irish distress were generous, were munifi-
cent, but at the same time the langange of the press of this
country, the toss of legislation for Ireland, the language of
many of the English members, exhibited a spirit most ad-
verse to the Irish landlords and to the Irish people, and were
eminently calculated to sow dissension and ill will between
these two portions of the United Empire. The right hon.
member then read various extracts from the rinses. *mailing
the Irish landlords, and one from the Tablet, which spoke
of the ruin of the landlords of Ireland—whom it denounced
" the Spawn of Chaos and Old Night," as a consemntation
mast devoutly to be wished, es the only effectual remedy for
the evil* of that country. (Herr, hear.) Those
who were so ready with their denunciations of the
Irish landlords, would find that the men of that body
would immediately demoralise and impoverish the country
to an infinitely greater extent than had been ever yet known,
and would send thousands and thousands more paupers over
into England. When the proper period arrived he should
oppose the enactment of out-door relief in Ireland by every
means in his power.
Mr. ELLICE saw no other means of providing for Irish
destitution out of Irish property, than the means proposed
by hie noble friend, or some miens very nearly resembling
them. He deprecated the
gentlemen had endeavoured to prove the existence in the
people of this country, and in parliament, of a feeling hostile
to Ireland, on the authority of journals whose views on

thhoiuseesu,boirecout twoefreit.litTtlheesbsrMethetdbboyn.mpeenntorlen.2meeThutedYte' n'tlitakths
that the measure was founded on prejudices agate
Irish landlords. If there were some feeling of that kei;
would the right hon. gentleman tell him that there wales
ground for suepicion with respect to the conduct of Irish
landlords amidst the distress of their country > (gar
hear.) It was a very convenient distinction yn
which was drawn between resident and non-me.
dent proprietors. (Hear, hear, hear.) The public of lei
country looked to Irish proprietors as a whole, mg
they had a right to expect from them the fulfilment
of their duties in the same manner as the English and eagle
proprietors performed theirs. ( Hear hear.) The pee*, ey
England looked for some stringent measure to relieve Mae
from the eternally recurring pressure of the paupenes of I
of Ireland. His own constituents sometime paid as madam
20s. in the pound for pours'-rates. and in a aelete, •
bouring county Lord Hood had paid 40e. an twee Mr
fL
his lend. The old system in Ireland had gone on keg
enough, and they were now asked to resort to a new e •
remedy for this state of things.. It was not, se the right ma.
gentlemen supposed, that there was any bitter and ed.
venomed feeling towards a particular class of landlords in
Ireland ; hut besides contributing to the relief of Ireland
they found, on looking to its capitol, to Bethnal-green, and
to Sthtland, that in some cases half, and in others three-
fourths, of the rates were, in fact, levied for the relief of
Irish destitution. (Hear, hear.) He believed the public
would learn with sincere gratitude the statement made by
his noble friend (Lord J. Russell), that evening, of the ds.
termination of a united cabinet to carry this measure as
part of their policy towards Ireland. Rumours had bees
circulated impugning the sincerity of the cabinet ea
that subject; and he was glad to find that they
meant to persevere with a measure which, free, the
date of its passing, would, he believed, commence the
regeneration of Ireland. The measure, though not peen;
was yet • great step towards a better state of things. As ea
gardens the question of rating, he thought it was impossible
to lay down an invariable rule. Probably it would be nests.
nary to have one rule with respect to great towns, soother
with respect to small towns in rural districts, and a tlurg
with respect to rural districts alone; and in any diets)*
made it would not be fair to unite a praiseworthy propnWar
to one who had totally neglected his property. Ile had
differed from the right hon. baronet, the member es,
Dorchester (Sir James Graham) when he refused le
introduce the principle of out-door relief into Scotland bat
he was satisfied with the working of the commission. The
principle of the ancient poor-law of Scotland was, that every
man out of employment had a right to demand from dm
heritor labour for food. He felt satisfied that the right
non. gentleman was in error in " ascribing" this measure M
any feeling of hostility to Irish landlords ; it was entirely
owing to • resolution on the part of this country whit*
would compel, even in an unwilling government, to provide
measures by which the destitution of Ireland should be pre
viied for out of the property of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
Notwithstanding all the complaiets which they had hear{
no gentleman hail told them by what other plan the object
was to be effected—(hear, hear)—and until he heard some
better plan proposed, he should give the measure his
earnest and strenuous support.
Sir B. HALL contended that the time had arrived what
it was absolutely necessary to pan an effective poor-law ire
Ireland. Re had been challenged to name the cases it •
which the Irish landlords had neglected their duty. Be
apprehended that the various Boards of Guardians were
to a great extent composed of landlords, and in a
great measure represented the feelings and opinions of
that clam ; but so far from the Boards of Guardians
having done their duty in administering the pew
law, they had evinced a thorough disinclination to put that
law into practice, or to levy rates fur the relief of the poor.
The Poor-law Commissioner?, in their 12th report, stated
the very great difficulty they had had in inducing the guar-
dians of the Clifden Union to open their workhouse ; and in
the unions of Westport, Castlereagh, and Roscommon, the
Commissioners had been compelled to take
hip against the guardians in the Court of efu=
Bench before they would open the workhouse, eg
levy • rate, and in several unions no more than one rate Mil
been levied since the passing of the act. Aa showing the
comparative amount contributed by the landlords of Rag-
land and those of Ireland, he would refer to a return from
which it appeared that in the seven first counties in England,
taken alphabetically, beginning at Bedfordshire and ending
at Glotheitershire, with a population of 3,154,185, and pro-
perty assessed to the poor-rate at 13,653,336/. in value, the
amount actually levied for the relief of the pee
was 1,169,3761., being ten per cent. on the whale
rateable value, and the number of paupers relieved
amounted to 9 per cent. on the population • while in 130 mien •
in Ireland, with • population of 8,174,000, and a rateable
value of 13,204,2341., the amount actually levied was only
298,8131., or two-and-a-quarter per cent., and the number of I
paupers relieved was but one-and-a-half per cent. on the
population. Alluding to the distress in Mallow, he said thatit
appeared that the Rev. R. Cotter gave no leases, and nothiag
for drainage, and that when he was asked to contribute to
his tenantry, he said be had nothing to give his tenants, bet
wanted everything from them. There was a Mr. Courtenay,
a landlord with many thousands a-year at Mallow. His
munificent contribution for the poor was 2/., although he
kept a pack of hounds with meal and new milk so luxuri-
ously, that the poor people were accustomed to say, "it '
would be well if we were Mr Courtenay's dogs." 4
There was, however, one bright exception to the use of the
Mallow landlords generally. Mr. Col. Gardiner, who had l
no land, but only • mortgage of 1,0001. in the county, gave
501., a whole year's income from the same, to the relief of
the Mallow poor; and hie servants, in order to set a good
example, gave 241. Well, then, there was the case of
Hanturk. With the exception of one landlord, Sir Edward
Tierney, who had given 100/., there was not one who had
given anything worth mentioning. A Mr. Longfield, with
8,0001. • year. had given 15/. ; Mr. Purcell, with 2,000/. •
year, 51. ; a Mr. Mahey, with 1,5001. a year, M.; another
Mr. Mahey, with 6001. • year, 61.; and the other landed pro-
prietors, having 13,600/. altogether, gave in the whole 251.
This was nothing new. Swift, in 1720, described the land-
owners of Ireland as grinding the people to the duet ; and
in 1823, a century afterwards, Dr. Doyle described • very
numerous class of Irish landlords, known by the term
" squireens," as men possessing much pride and little pro-
perty, extremely ignorant, bigoted, and dishonest, to
whom you could not trust your honour nor
I your puree, having little regard for the sanctity
t of an oath, promoters of religious animosity, ever ready,
through the medium of grand jury jobs and otherwise, '
to lay on taxes from which they might them-
selves benefit, in short, the scourge of the country.
In common with his noble friend at the heed of the govern-
ment, he (Sir B. Hall) saw a cloud at present over Ireland,
but still he did not despair: be believed if his noble bind
received on this occasion the support of his warmest friends
—if he received the forbearance or assistance of there
honourable members opposite, who on certain questions won
his political opponents, but who at this great crisis would, '-
he hoped, join those on his (Sir B. Hall's) aide of the house
—his noble friend, by his own good sense, aided by the moral
courage which had characterised his whole career, would be
able to surmount tits difficulties of this great task by the
putting of this bill. Whatever, however, might be the
aresugh, he (Sir B. Hall) was firmly
example
~c 4
ontheptrto co
of
thnevincedwzadithat
of Ireland, and the manifestation by them of a determine. .
I Mon to ameliorate the condition of their peaeantry, and ea
I anxious desire to identify their interests with their owa,
would tend more to improve that country. than any let of
parliament, whether it emanated from an imperial or ad*.
acetic legislature. (Cheers.)
On the motion of Sr W. CLLY, the debate was then ad-
journed to Monday next._ _ -