The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-27 00:00:00

ROUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, MARCH 26.
The LORD CMANCRLLOR tank hia scat at fife o'clock.
_yUBLIC itIIIHREBB, _

NOTICE OP 140170.171.71;n:i7d1.7L0nt Cm max, on Monday
aert, to wore for • return of the names of the peers who voted at thelate election for ernes...motive prow for Scotland.
PRIVILEGE.—ELECTION OF REPRESS:..
PEERS FOR SCOTLAND.
Lead COLVILLE complained that at the recent election
of a representative Peer for Scotland, in the room of the
late Lord Ftollo, an individual when the roll was called over
answered to the titleof and voted as Lord Colville of Ochiltree,
though, as he believed, he had not the shadow of a shade of
right to that title. The title of Lord Colville of Ochiltree
became extinct in 1670, and though an attempt was made in
1787, and since then the person he referred to had put for-
ward a claim, no one had yet succeeded in proving h.s right
to it. He did not know whether or not he ought
to move that the individual who had thus improperly voted
should be called to the bar of the house, but he felt it his
duty to protest against the course which had been pursued
at that election in reference to the reception of this vote. 1
The Earl of ROSEBERY apprehended that eleir lord-
ships could not consent to what would be, if not the irregular,
at least the unprecedented, motion his noble friend propoeed,
of bringing this party to the bar of the house. (Hear,
r bear.) By the resolutions of the house, a son or brother of
a deceased peer, claiming the title, could vote at an election
for a representative peer of Scotland, but no more distant
I relative, until his right to the title was proved. If his noble
*lend was anxious to pursue the subject further, the more
regular and proper course would be togive notice of a motion
that a copy of the proceedings at the late election be laid
before the house, with a eatement of the names of the peers
who voted, and the grounds on which theyclaimed so to vote.
If, then, it should appear that the individual in question was ,
a lineal descendant of the last lord Colville of Ochiltree, or
claimed to be so, the resolutions of the house would net
zmtalls ow. The house had not made up any roll of
it Ilindand so mete enable them to purify it from
Mitheabled *Am.
Lied BROUGHAM remarked the* the resolutions of the
Bente afforded no protection as against those who claimed to
ems as lineal descendants--a correct and purified roll was the
reined,.
LORD CHANCELLOR considered it better to put
Eke want in a course of proper regulation for the future
• e the question of this past election further.
t„...... ..) When a nun claimed to be the lineal heir cr
peer, he new wend as a matter a
• . 1.111, a.- ite-m-
-'
that for the future no oneshou' d be
tom.
nee . ~ he had obtained the certificate of the
Chastain that he was entitled to exercise that pri. ilege.
Inapar descending from father to son in this country,
the exercise the privileges of a peer was not ob-
tain gnat the Chancellor was satiated, and he thought it
would be advisable to 'stead that principle to the Scotch
peerage. (Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL said the noble lord (Colville) need be
under no apprehension that any legal right was acquired by
the individual in question by the fact of his having voted
,at the election. He concurred in the remedy proposed by
the Lord Chancellor.
Lord COLVILLE expressed his satisfaction at the result
of the discussion, and gave the notice as suggested by the
Earl of Rooeberi.
THE GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION.
The Earl FITZWILLIAM, in presenting the petition
from 25,000 inhabitants of Leeds, against the government
plan, said the petitioners denied that it was the right or the
duty of the government to interfere is the education of the
people in any way. Now, he should say if it was not the
right or duty of the government to educate, it was not the
right or duty of ipdividuals. (Hear, hear.) The petitioners
also expressed their confidence in the success of voluntary
efforts to furnish all the aid in the way of education which
the exigencies of the nation required. If so, they must
admit that all were now educated who ought to be educated.
OUT-DOOR RELIEF (IRELAND).
Lord MONTEAGLE said he rose pursuant to notice, to
bring under the consideration of the house a question of no
common interest and magnitude. (Hear, hear.) He
had for many. years been Intimately acquainted with the
question of Irish poor laws. In the other house of parlia-
ment he bad been chairman of two committees, and more
than once had he felt it his duty to give the question his
most serious consideration. He had no wish to check the
progress of the government measures; he hoped that thole
measure would be carefully considered, but he wished them
to he accepted or rejected solely on their own merits. He was
not about to ask for an unlimited committee of inquiry into the
Irish poor-law, a thing which would: occupy the whole
session. He merely asked for a committee to examine into
the reports which were already on the table of the house.
It might be said that he was asking their lordships to do a
duty which they had already performed, but he feared that
very few indeed of those noble lords who would be called
upon
to vote on the asw poor. law, had made themselves
1 acquainted with the reports to which ho had alluded. He
hoped, therefore, that his motion would not be refused on
the ground that the house had previous information on the
subject. He did not mean to say that they were to be bound
by previous information, they might cast it aside if they
thought fit, but this be said, that if they were disposed
to do justice to this great question, if they were dis-
posed to do justice to a country which was now
an integral part of the empire—and he prayed to God that
no rash legislation on the part of the imperial parliament
might make persons doubt the expediency of its continuing
so—if they were so disposed, he prayed them to look back-
ward, to see what the weight of authority and experience
of the past taught, and if they were rnolved to strike, at
least to strike after having heard. (Hear, hear.) He wished
to guard himself against a misconception. He feared it was
held that Irishmen in looking at the question of out-door
relief were influenced by two motives equally base. One,
a wish to protect their own selfish interests, the other an
anxiety to get from the imperial parliament the largest
possible amount of the _ public revenue. He dis-
claimed both motives. (Hear, hear.) He averred
that to raise Ireland from its present degradation sail
misery, there was no sacrifice which the Irish landed'
propnetoro would not submit to. With respect to the seers&
he came for no additional gifts. He deprecated mnek ef
what had already been done; he awned that muck of the
money they had given had been productive of paddle era
He had opposed the casting away of a ntillicsielstd
tithes, and in the previous year he had opposed the weeldd
grant for the Irish constabulary. The fact was, that esse-
tenth of the sums they had at various times lavished an be.
land, would, if properly applied, have relieved the gam bar
present miseries. Therefore he did not come to ask
for greater gilts, but to pray them in what they
were about to do, to consider the social state of Ireland, its
existence as a civilised country, the development of its in-
dustry, and the security of its property. The motion he was
about to make was, that a committee should be appointed
to consider the repents of previous committees of inquiry,
and to report thereon. It was merely a committee to search
the journals, and there was a precedent for it in the case of
national education. To the house he would appeal, and
through them to the British public. The question
was whether, in the year 1847, with the experience of the
previous half century before them, with their knowledge of the
state of Ireland, and the character of the people, they would
sanction an experiment introducing for the finalists the out-
door relief of the able-bodied poor of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
He begged them to observe the distinction he drew. II
they wanted relief for the present famine, take the estates,
confiscate them if necessary, but let them not attempt per
manent regulation without due consideration. He would
recall a portion7of ths parliamentary history of Ireland.
From 1800 to 1804 was a period of rebellion, and the only
legislation was martial law, and the suspension of the
habeas corpus act. In 1803 Sir John Newport moved for a
committee on the poor-law, and that committee reported
that any assimilation of the rating for the relief of the poor
In Ireland to the law in England would not be to the
advantage of the former country. From 1804 to 1817
foreign policy so occupied; the attention of parliament
as to shut out the condition of Ireland altogether.
In 1822 there was great misery in Ireland, and Mr. John
Smith was chairman of au association which collected up
wards of 300,0001. for the relief of that distress. A com-
mittee of the house was also appointed to inquire into the
subject, which reported against out-door relief to the able-
bodied, and against the application of the principl of the I
English poor-law to Ireland. The statute of
which was much referred to by persons who anise nod It,
or who, baring read it, did not understand It, grave so
power to magistrates to order relief to able-bodied meow
out of the workhouse. Outdoor relief was an aid from
the set of 1795, and no order for out-door relief to Math
bodied persons was valid until then. The effect of this In-
novation was most mischievous, and it was not anal the
government of Earl Grey that any effective remedy was ap-
plied; and the reform of the poor-lawecommenced under Lord
Grey and completed under Lord Melbourne, was one
of the greatest legislative measures that did honour to
British statesmen. The noble lord proceeded to quote
opinion' expressed by the poor law commthioners adverse to
a labour-rate, or a labour-test, in connexion with the print&
ple of out-door relief, as moat mischievous and utterly falla-
cious. As to Ireland, the experience of the last six months
showed that such a test would be altogether fatal. The ;prin-
ciple upon which the first poor law amendment bill was
framed, however much it might have been departed from in
practice, was to abandon the system of out-door relief as soon
es possible, and to accompany relief with the in-door test.
Ultimately, under such a system, the whole of Ireland
would have to lean on England for support. That which
was now accidental wBbld become habitual, sad Ireland
would he reduced to a state of perfect ruin. Ahead ybe had
accounts from Ireland of what was occurring and likely to
near, under a system which applied the labour ten. There
was a farmer in his county, a most respectable, &Malian-
minded con, who had been already shot for endeavouring
thirty to apply such a test. In 1836 Mr. Nicholls had strongly
reported against the system. In 1837 Lord J. Russell, in
rig upon the subject in the ROAM of Commas', declared
4do opinion that Mr. Nicholls's views were unanswerable,
and that outdoor relief in Ireland would be a most pernicious
system, draining the proceeds of the land to an extent even
greater and more detrimental than had been the case in
England. His noble friend the Secretary for the Colonies
(Earl Grey) expressed a similar opinion. In the ensuing
session, a motion of Mr. Smith O'Brien, in the Hone Of
Commas, for outdoor relief, was opposed by Lord Morpeth,
who declared that if outdoor relief were one adopted in
Ireland, there was scarcely a family in the count/est!:
would sot take advantage of it. In their lordships'w
a think, motion was, during the same year opposed by the
late Lord Fitzgerald, who knew Ireland well, and hie noble friend (Lord Brougham) who knew everything well.
Lord- (LaBILOughUterGHA.) M (bowing : Everything proper to be
known—proper to be known. ()Renewed laughter.)
Lord MONTEAGLE (continuing): And those noble lords
both expressed themselves strongly seine the adoption of
the principle in the sister kingdom. Bat the question was
diecussed at a still later period. Only last year Sir James
Graham spoke in the House of Commons of a labour rate as
the mgt noxious of all the noxious fruits of a poor-law. A

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