The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-20 00:00:00

ii dim.
20 ex in

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 20, 1849.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS.-TIICR4DAT, JULY 19.
The Earl of Suarrgisvny (Deputy Speaker) took his
seat at 6 o'clock.
ADMIRALTY JURISDICTION IN THE COLONIEtt
BILL.
On the =otiose( Lord CAMPBELL this bill went through
committee.
TITLES OF RELIGIOUS CONGREGATIONS (SCOT-
LAND) BILL.
Lord CAMPBELL moved the second reading of this bill.
The object of the bill was to facilitate the transfer of sites
for small chapels from one class °Enlistees to in Aber.
Lord REDESDALB said the bill ought to have further
consideration. The object of the messiere was to set up a
rival establishment to the free church ; and met a 1111116Ure
ought not to be introduced at this period of the session. It
there was to be a general measure on the subject, it ought
to apply to all dissenting congregations in E. giand as well
as Sec:lends
Lord BROUGHAM supported the bill, and saw no evil
likely to arise front it.
The Earl of ABERDEEN did not objttet to the prin-
ciple of the bill ; but he thought it was • specimen of hasty
legislation which ought not to he encouraged ; and as there
was no great evil pressing he thought the noble and learned
lord ought to withdraw the measure.
Lord CAMPBELL said that it was quite a mistake to
suppose that this was an attempt to set up dizeenten against
the establishment. If it were so, the bill woull not receive
his support.
The bill was then read a second time.
HEALTH OF TOWNS (SCOTLAND) BILL
Lord POLWARTH caked if the Health ot Towns (Scot-
land) Bill would be proceeded with this session If not, he
trusted a well-digested measure would be introduced by the
goveroment early next sermon.
The Earl of CARLISLE said, a bill had been introduced
in the other hsuse of pediment, and discues. din committee.
He had hop dit would have come before their lordships in
time to be paned this session ; but he was afraid now that
there was so chance of it.
BRITISH PASSPORTS IN ROME.
The Earl of MALMESBUILY wished to call the atten-
tion of the noble marquis to the fact of persons who had
served in the cepuhi;mn army in Ems Wine *teethed
passports from Kr. FreeuPra, our eau: there. lie though
that by such • course the Barash consul endangered the
respectability of British peaspor:s• Pt then° the noble mar
quill would be able to tell whether Mr. Freeborn bed avid
from orders Riven by the Secretary of 8 ate for Foreign
Affairs, or on his own responsibility ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE could answer the gum
tion so well then as on a future day. Ile ctrtainly had
heard that Mr. Freeborn had given such paseporta, and he
agreed with the noble earl that he ought oot to have done
so, unless the parties to whom they were given were in
danger ot their lives.
Lord BROUGHAM said it would be a great evil if Lug-
lish passports were given indiscriminately.
Theo Eul of HARROWBY said, if it was true that • very
notorious person was walking about, the streets of Rome--
[Lord Brougham : Mmaioij —under the protection of each
• passport, the matter ought to be inquired into.
The Earl of MINTO did not pretend to say whether he
waa right or wrong, but Mr. Freeborn had stated that his
motive was to facilitate the escape of persons who were in

danger.
The Earl of MALMESBURY thought Mr. Freeborn hod
proved himself in thii, seine former transactiou,to be rather
a nervous spirit.
THE STEAM NAVY.
Earl TALBOT, in rising to put a question of, which he
had given notice, with reference to the steam navy,
said that several letters had paused respectleg the stain
of the steam navy between Sir C. Napier and •
noble member of their lordsh:pe' house, who was ab-
sent. He did not wish to enter into the question, but
merely to glee the government au opportunity of st iting the
efficiency of the steam navy. The gailent admiral said we
bad only three armed steamers, and that there were upwards
of 22 in the French city. Upon looking over the
navy list, he found the gallant admiral had entirely
omitted the 'hips propelled by the screw, which, sooner or
later, be had no doubt, would prove of great service.
He would move presently for returns to show the
number and description of each war steamer in commission,
the tonnage, horse power, armamynt, and coniumpion
of coal, distinguishing aczor frog paddle-wheel ships.
He should also move for a similar return of
ell such ships in ordinary or under repair. That
would show the two person with whom the contro-
versy bad been going on what the actual state of the steam
navy was. The pliant palsiesl said there had been a waste
of public money in the con.truetion of steam-vessels. This
he also believed, and he had some years ago recommended a
board of construction. Han man tow had his own
motion of the manner in which ships were to be built.
I The gallant admiral had made a 'apart to the Admi-
ralty as the number of steam vessels in France ; he would
at the mice time move for a copy of that report.
From various data which he hadobtained, be found
that England had 12 line-of-battle ships, carry-
ing 1,022 guns that France had 10, carry ins
1,006 guns; England had 9 frigates, carrying 382
guns, and France 7, carrying 338 guns; England had 13
corvette", carrying 219 guns, whilst France had 17, carrying
438 guns. England had 27 brigs in her royal nary, carrying
300 guns, whilst the French had 21 small craft, carrying 318
guns; showine a total of 61 ships in the British navy, vary-
tog 2,047 guns, and 50 ships in the French navy, carrying
2,100 guns. He Lund also that in the British navy there
were 26 steam frigates above 220 horse power, with a total of
9,000 and upwards horse power; whilst in the French navy
there were 22 steam frigates with a total of 7,230 horse
power. We had also 9 screw steamers, whilst the French
had only 3. Our reserved tome consisted of five line of battle
ships ready for commission. and 20 which were nearly ready,
sad could soon be completed. The French, it anpeared, had
a reserved force of 10 nearly read, for sea. It further ap-
peared that we had 11 frigates and sloops getting ready, and
the French had 15. Our total reserved steam force num-
bered 43 vessels, with a total of 12,617 horse power.
He believed these returns were ready correct ; and he was
persuaded that we bail steam force sufficient to cops with the
force of any other nat;on in the world. (Hear, hear.) Be-
fore any other steamers were built, however, he hoped
means would be taken to prevent our steamers from being
made the laughing-stock of the world from the variety of
plans which had been adopted. We had the greatest facili-
ties for building steamers, and should send out the finest
models. (Hear, hear.) He should like also, on a future
day, to obtain a return of the number of classes into which
these vessels in the navy were divided. We ought to knew
the recognised size of first and second rate line-of battle
ships, as well as ships of a lower class, and what guns they
ought to carry. There had been • circular sent by Mr.
Ward, when secretary of the Admiralty, by which
regulations were made for the examination of ap-
prentices and persons holding offices in the navy,
en her Majesty's doekyar Is. He thought • school for a
superior class of men should be established. He should also
at a future day move for a return of the number of men dis-
charged fromthe dockyards, leaving them in many instances
in an inefficient state. He could not sit down without
stating that there were inventions which would secure this
country against the steam-navy of France or any other
country in the world, and that the government was, in his
opinion. wrong in not securing them.
The Earl of MINTO ems sure that the state of our steam-
navy, when it came to be looked into, would be found
highly satisfactory to the country. (Hear, hear.) He re-
gretted that officers of high rank should think it desirable
to tarry on •public correspondence co such a subject as that
to which the noble earl had alluded. (Hear, hear.) He
thought it could not be attended with any public advantage
whatever. (Cheers.) There would be no objection to
granting the returns for which the noble earl had moved ;
and as to the others to which he bad alluded, perhaps the
noble earl would give due notice of his intention to move for
them.
Earl TALBOT intimated his meat, and the subject
dropped.
SEWERS' ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
BEQUESTRATORS' REMEDIES BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of Bt. Eisaaaxs, this bill was
read • third time and passed.
Their lordship's then adjourned at 25 minutes to 7 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-THUILSDAY, JULY 19.

The Srs►xsx took the chair at 12 o'clock.
SUPPLY.
The report of the committee of supply on the odium*
estimates was brought up and received.

ESTATES LEASING (IRELAND).
The order of the day for the third reading of this bill hay-
ing been read,

Sir L. O'BRIEN called the attention of the Solicitor-
General to the clauses which he had printed in the paper, for
the purpose of adding them to the bill.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said be had read the
clauses, and found they were not within the scope of the
bill, which was to give extended powers of leasing land in
Ireland ; whereas the hon. baronet's object was to give, by
means of these clauses, a summary power of eviction.

Mr. HAMILTON said that, u the object sought for by
the hon. baronet was a good one, he could introduce a mea-
sure next session, for the object of effecting it.
The clauses h:rient been withdrawn, the bill was read a
third time and po
MUNICIPAL CORPORATION (DUBLIN).
On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill
being read.
Mr. REYNOLDS said he could not let the bill pass with-
out expressing his remt that the legislature had not anise- I
lusted the municipal ekefions of Dublin more nearly to those
of London, and have allowed the citizens of Dahlia to elect
their own sheriffs as well u lord mayor. Thmigh he would
not oppose the third reading, he should eertr.iuly, during the
neat session move for leave to bring in s bill to taws the
rights of Irish citizens.
Mr. SADLEIR asked whether it Ives the intention of the
government to bring in a bill to ulehd the Irish Municipal
Corporation Act.
Sir W. SOMERVILLP. said that although an intent;.en
he could give no assurance ou the
iosufbthieeetitind had existed
.
After some fart%er conversation the bill was r.aa a third
time and passed. _

SMALL DEBTS AMEw—
NT.
The ease of 1:114 ALT fot the t.ard reading of this hal was
Tao CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in repit to
• Mr. Thornily, etatei We conviction that the tloasnry vrao

far more econemieel way of settling claims for compensation in such workhouse shall in ell other respects be attended
than a committee of the house. with the same legal conseque aces as if such workhouse had
The bit was then read a teerd time end paned. been situated within the ueion or parish from which such
STOCK IN TRADE. poet person shall have been sent."
The order of the day for the third raiding of this bill Mgrs. MILES objecied to this proviso, as tending to in
btina read, flict eat hardship on pas en, by us emit sting their removal
to considerable distances. ' Unless he heard better reasons in
support of tee proposal, he should divide against it.
Sir IL W BARRON to' k the never:unity of protesting
against the principle of the bill. He hoped se otr.er picador
measure would never be introduced by the government; for Capt. PECHELL called attention to wtat had taken
it it should be during the next session, he would oppose it place in the parish of Weymouth, when a pauper, 91 years
at every stage, of sge had been pl .ced i.l r, workhorse, withuat his col.-
Mr, LAW said that it would only be consistent in the mot, through the inctumentality of his son and grandson,
who bad got possession of his pr-perty, and paid 2s. Id. a
hon, memb. r If, at the same time he introduced a bill
whereby the astessments now exclusively levied on land in week for his support. This system was most improperly
Ireland were extended to all classes of property. countenanced by the poor law ' eard. Al he seould pureue
Mr. FRENCU agreed hi the observation ot the hon. and this subject further, he hoped the chairman would be allowed
learned gentleman. to report progress.
Colonel DUNNE asi l that a tax ohtto be imposed on Mr. BAINES consented, protesting against the correct-
, ug
nets of the statement made by the hon. and gallant member.
Irish absentee ptoorietors.
Alter af. w words Item Mr. C. ANSTET the bill was read a The haute then resumed. The other orders of the day
third ilia.. and passed. were postponed
house (chiefly till this day); and at 4 o'clock the
il six.
REGIMENTAL BENEFIT SOCIETIES. T adjourned
he SPILSIER r unt
esumed the chair at a quarter to six.
The order of the day for the third reading of this bill being
read, STATE OF MARRIAGE.
Mr. HENLEY said, that the bill had passed so rapidly Lord D. STUART presented a petition from Mr.
through ell in stages as not to have enabled him to obtain Mackenzie, of Camden Town, setting forth that
any estimation of its purp rt. He must, therefore, having contracted an unfortunate marriage, and having
ask the hon. gentlemen to postpone the bill until some in- consequently experienced the various ills of the married
quiq bad been made on this moan et, and if he did not state, (laughter,) he had turned tie attention to the causes
accede he (Mr. Henley) would feel it to be his duty to take which produced disagreements between husband and wife,
the sense of the house upon the question. and he had found that, among other things, the law
of settlement had much to do with tee matter,
ell conditioned wives taking. undue advantage of
Mr. F MAULE could not consent to postpone the bill;
one-sided ;settlements to mauve with attorneys against
and alter the explanation he hue to give, he hoped the hon.
member would not require him to uu so. The bill proposed
to deal with two distinct funds. The first were the funds their husband., Land to do all sorts of bad things. (Much
now existing in some regimental benefit societies; the second laughter.) The petitioner prayed that until the one-sided
law of settlement was revised, the house would instruct the
Secretary of State for the Home Department to despatch
were certain ch ititable funds which were at the disposal of
orders to all sheriffs, constables, Be., of counties to repair and
the commanding lam nof regiments. The bill bad the full
approval of the Commander in• Chief, who, contrary to his
usual practice, had consented to take charge of it iu another reconstruct, without delay, the ducking stools and other
plece. The regimental boo fit societies were formed previous implements of good husinindry—(laughter)—which in
ancient times kept wayward and uedutiful and run-away
to toe establishment of ninnies banks, which had emeerseded
them. They were found, besides, to have the effect of wives. (Laughter.)
cresieg regimental clubs, and in consequence the Com. Mr. MACKINNON put it to the chair whether this
mand-r-in Chief issued a 1 andinpi order for their discen inu. ridiculous petition ought to be weaved. (Hear, hear.) I
once, end that no further sums should be subscribed to them. The SPEAKER said it was quit: a question for the house
The emu quenc . wise, teat there were benefit funds now ex- to determine. The petition was, Su its language, quite
luting in r, gicrtents which could not he increased, and the in form.
pettiest i. teresied in them were weekly calling for their Sir J. Y. BULLER was surprised that the noble lord had
die ribution amongst themeolves. Neither the S.cre- consented to present so absurd a petition. (Hear, herr.)
tbry-st- War nor any othe r of the military cu. The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
thoriii s, however, had the power of distributing
these funds. But it was discovered that a precedent ve TAXATION OF COSTS.
mr. HUME brought in this bill from the upper house,
for the present bill tented with respect to the St. George's
Fund, formerly collected together by one ef the household and begged to move that it be real a first time, which was
cavalry regimeuta, which was distributed under an act of agreed to. Second reading on Monday.
parliament, from milieu the present bill was taken, as he had THE QUEEN'S VISIT TO IRELAND.
framed It upon the principle of that act. Mr. FRE WEN asked the Secretary for Ireland whether
Sir D. L. EVANS thanked the hon. member °pre- he had seen in the columns of a Dublin democratic piper
eke fee the deep interest he took in the welfare of the army, called thy Irishman, a warning to the effect, that all those
cud enured him that he would hest serve the cause by ab- who illuminated their houses on the occasion of the Queen's
staining from offering any apposition to the bill.
visit to Ireland would be marked men, and if so, whether he
Colonel DUNNE had no doubt that the bill was fora
intended to take any notice of it, or to call the Lord-Lieu-
beneficial purpose. He wished to know whether the chni• tenant's attention to it.
table funds would be reserved entirely for the benefit of the Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he had never seen the
re Omuta to which, of right, they belonged? journal in question, nor had the particular paragraph re-
Mr. F MAULE—Ot course. fared to by she hon. gentleman attracted his attention.
Toe bill WAS then read a thine' time and passed. Mr. COBDEN auggestei, that instead of speeding money
ENLISTMEN r ARTILLERY AND ORDNANCE. on illuminseiens it weu:d be advisable to reserve such funds
TWO bill was read a third time and passed. ss were destined for that purpose, for distribution among the
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND). distreseed people of Ireland.
Th • SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved that the Leyte' SI. MARGARET'S GRAVEYARD.
Mr. MACKINNON asked the noble lord the member for
amendments to this bill be taken into eons:deration. He Bath. whether he could not in his capacity as one of
had Illoself prepared certain clauses altering those amend- the sanitary commi,sioners, and as an officer of the Board of
opfleteeieeselleytchoemgmeaueneicyaateedeeifthstth.
He Berisghtorepto.ef, Lwohnidehoneriene
meats, which he should submit to the house.
Sir H W. BARRON said that cues of great hardship olledeaelethtei
might arise under the cmuse, and it ought not to be aligned, SO close to the plan: win-re they were sitting, from being dea-
lt there were a receiver over the property, that the commis- turbed during the prevalence of the cholera.
'loners should have the power of selling. Lord ASHLEY sail that if any distinct facts could be
Mr. SADLEAR said that the clause gave implied autho- stated to him upon which to ground such an application to
city to toll estate' wher • the net income might mot exceed the Bishop of London, he might do so, but he could not take
one-half of the cue-rent outgoings. sucha measure upon mere rumour.
Col. DUNNE considered that the amendment ef the TAXATION.
Lords tended to prevent the destruction of half the property Mr. H. DR AIMON U ' 0 then ruse to bring forward the
of Ireland. motion of which he had given notice. Ile had
Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN said that he should divide the endeavoured, during the last two years, to obtain an op-
house un the proposed amendment of the S ilicitorDencral. portunity to address the house oa this subject, and to
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that. if the estate was immerse upon the be giplature and the government the aloe-
hopelessly encumbered, and the owner could not pay off the lute necessity of introducing a radical change in the whole
interest of the ineumbranees, that appeared to be preeieely system of taxation. Ou the last occasion when the subject
a ca-e in which this bill was intended to operate. When was brought leeward, the government wan asked to appoint
once a receiver was appointed, the owner considered that the a select committee, for the purpose of Fr Ang into the details
estuto was gone. if the estate was in that situation that he of taxation, and of minutely recording the mode in which it
could not keep PINIWA•SiOII of it, but that even an iocum- was leviel. The ministers,bowever, warned the house against
hemmer of 2001. er 3001. got possenion, he said that that wee following such an inexpedicet course, and there was nothing
a cue foe the interference of this c met ;if he was not in that left for him to do on the present occasion save to go in detail
hopeless encumbered stile, he would not relii.quieh his through the blue-books that had been printed by order of the
as. ate. house in order to justify the motion he was about to make.
Mr. REYNOLDS was so strongly onprsed to this amend• The epee ono that would be nude by the present occupants of
meat of the Lords, cont tin'..l in the 22nd clause, that he be. the treas-iry beech might Leslie, be anticipated; perhaps they
fiend that, if the house passed it, it woul•I not only embarrass reserved themselves, and were keeping the present subject
the administration of this act of parlians•rx, tut would render as a stepping-stone to power in case the whips found them
it almost useless. This cause provided that no estate should selves under the necessity of again bringing them
be sold unless the ineumbrances amounted to one-half too selves into popularity as the moven of reform.
gross value of the income. He must however state that the whole object
The house divided—For the amendment B4 which tee had in view was to prevent the govern.
Avalon it O-84 went from having to much money, and he would pro-
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL teen moved, in line 18 of teed to show upon what authority ho took tee
the same neon, to omit the word "gran," and to substitute course he bad adopted. The great object which he
'ought to effect was, to prove that the amount
in lieu thereof the word " nett." of taxation was too great, and that above all the
Mr. SADLEIR considered the clause as more likely to mode ne levying it was most • B did unjust. a i net
embarrass the welkin of the commission, mean his motion to apply more to the present government
Mr. BRIGIIT said that it could not be the gross income than to any former government. He thought that all go-
of an estate which was required for the money lent ' • it vernments were alike responsible fur the present system. To
must be the nett income which was the ultimate security. Hs show his meaning he would cite one or two cases of the un-
less not speaking in t..vour of this clause because he thought just mode ot kvying taxes. When there was a duty levied on
it better for the government to rein'. the clause which the printed cottons the tax imposed on cottons of the highest
lords had introduced, but he thought nothing more likely to price and worn only by the upper classes was only
damage the operation of this bill than the word "gross" 10 per cent ad valorem, whilst on the common cottons
being le; in instead of " nett." worn by the lower classes the duty was 60 per cent. It
Mr. GROGAN was happy that the nob'e lord had not would he said that these duties were now repealed. True
taken the opinion of the hem. gentleman, and put the whole they were; but the principle of taxation by which their re-
of Ireland beyond the pale of the constituti en. lative amount was fixed was not abandoned. So again
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that with respect to leather. The duty was imposed
the weeds objected to had been introduced at the auggratien upon the pound weight, and thus the working man,
of the hon. and learned member for the University of Dub- whose coarse, clumsy snow weighed one hundred times
lin. He thought that the fallowing alteration would meet what a gentleman's pump or a lady's slipper weighed, paid
all objections, " After payment of all ti•he rent charges and exactly one hundred times the amount of duty upon his
such part of the county and poor rates as are payable by 111100 that the richer classes did. In the same way, wine, a
the landlord. Also head quit am: crown rent," * luxury caromed by the upper Owns', paid 100 per cent.
After some further conversation, ad ea/ewers duty, whilst beer, the drink of the labourer,
paid 150 per cent. In short, the whole system of taxation
Mr. BRIGHT thought that the insertion of the words of the •
would only raise difficulties. The words, " nett incense." l' country wasmte eat hd higha db
too
b seat
; and by
awl).
of giving an illustration. ot what o meant, e would e a
could hardly be misunderstood by the commissioners. Noquotation from s journal which was the great organ of the
man would call poor rates and taxes, nett income. (A
last administration.
laugh.) Some HON. Mamma—Name.
The words es altered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
were then inserted. Mr. H. DRUhf MOND—The Quarterly. Review, In
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had an amendment on the that journal was contained an article whereto, after coefer-
ring a panegeric upon the right hon. baronet the member
35th clause. It appeared that the Master of the Court o for Timmer-de the writer proceeded to say :
Chancery was entitled to ponadage on all money paid into Uwe to k 'place iis bid' bl
cep our t inpensa , necessary that every
the court from extraneous sources. As the commission iacumbrance sliould be removed which clop the activity and energy
would be in many cows a substitute for the Court of Chan- of individuals or the government. Every part of the machine of so-
eery, end as it would have a power of paying money into ciety must be adapted to the increased exertion tt Is called upon to '
that court for adjudication, the object of the amendment make. If this be so, every branch of our public and private economy:
was to exempt money so paid in from the poundage. The the administration
,of the affairs. of parishes and counties; the stare
cffite of usher was a gross sinecure, and would expire with andgeCrbcr;ltlt'S C 0,17. ati
th whole managementeaiti puc 'h'otiurm'ifloreien depe the
ndencies,
the present occupier. He did not think, therefore, that must necessarily submit to examination and amendment. Wealthy
there would be any objection to the amendment. en the country is, and attached to ancient institution as it has always
The amendment was agreed to. been, it can no longer support the burden of places or proceedings
The remaining amendments were agreed to, and the house which can to simplified or dispensed with. While no branch of our
resumed. institutions ought to be touched which can be safely let alone, there
JUDGMENTS (IRELAND) BILL. yet exists mimperative necessity for submitting many of them to
alteration. When the situation of a state becomes really critical—
The house went into committee on this bill, which, after when its affairs require to be effoctaally dlsentgngled—it Pi neither to
some discussion, was agreed to, upon which the house re- men of mere routine, nor to proficients in statistical calculation, and
gamed. the metaphysten of political economy, that the wise will look.
STAMPS, Be., ALLOWANCES BILL. He believed that to be exactly the state of things; and
This bill passed through committee, that if the house did not either strengthen the hands of go-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explaining vernment in their endeavours u effect an economical reform,
' that its object was to reduce the discount on the sale of or else compel them to adopt some plans of economy, those
stamps to a more moderate amount. reforms would be otherwise affected. The next
thing he had at heart, after reducing the ex-
POOR LAW UNION CHARGES ACT AMENDMENT penditure, was the diminution or payment of the na-
BILL. tional debt. However that great object might be achieved,
The house having gene into committee on this bill, it must be done. There could be no doubt whatever that
Mr. BAINES moved some verbal amendments, on which five times the amount of eatables might be reified on the
Captain PECHELL desired to know whether the wives land in England than was now produced—(hear,
of soldiers and marines serving in her Majesty's ships could hear)—but then this would be by expending more
obtain, during their absence, the privilege of irremovability. capital in raising the food then the food would
Mr. BAINES said the question was under the considers. be worth. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, the only
in way
to
to
lion of the Queen's Binch. be enabled to apply capital profitably to the creas
The several clauses to clause 8 inclusive having been cultivation of the soil was to lower the rate of interest. He
would conclude the observations he had to make by reading
agreed to,
13
On clause 9, a part of one of Mr. urke's pineches on the subject of na-
Capt. PECHELL objected to the new powers given by tional ezp snditure and taxation. Mr. Burke said :
The private. enemies. to be male in alt atempts of this are innume-
this clause of appointing auditors. table; and the enmity will be the more bitter, and the more danger-
Mr. BAINES explained that it merely gave power to the am, ton, b 5„........, of dignity will oblige them to conceal the
Poor-law Board, when an auditor died, to prevent the in- muse of th it treatment. Very few men of great families and eaten-
convenience of unfinished accounts, by appointing a tem. sire milestone but will feel the smart of a cutting reform in some
poetry auditor, until a permanent successor to the deceased close relation, wane hen= friend, some pleasant acquaintance, some
deer Peoter.ted dependent. Emolument is taken from some, patro-
was elected. owe ban where, objects of porauit from all. Men forced into an in-
The clause was then agreed to, as was clause 10, with the yorant.r f independence will abhor the authors of a blessing which in
following addition: " But that no auditor shall commence their
e eesi have so very near a resemblance to acurse. When effects
any such proceeding after the lapse of nine calendar months, are •eittoved, and the dam remain, you may set the gratitude of
from the disallowance or surcharge by such auditor, or, in I cone agairst the anger of others; Toil may oppose the friends yon
the event of an application by way of appeal against the i r;oliec Wiest the enemies you provoke. But services of the present
same to the Court of Queen's Bench or to the Poordum ,sort create no attachments. The individual good felt in a public bens-
I at is comparatively so small, COMMA round through such an invelvoi
Board, after the lapse of twelve calendar months.from t en.
labyrinth of Intricate and tedious revolutions • whilst a present ner-
determination thereupon." soma detriment is so heavy where it falls, and instant in its opera_
Clauses 11 to 14 were agreed to, with some yobs', .....a. I Win, that the cold commendations of a public advantage never was,
t""''"— and never will he a match for the quiet sensibility of a private life;
aunts. and you may depend upon it that when people have an interest t:a
Oa clause 15, railing, sooner or later they will bring a considerable degree of un-
Sir. HENLEY asked for 'ems explanation e*. the mei- popularity upon any meature. fio that for the present, at levd, the
sions intended to be made for the emigration ...r paupers. reformation will operate against the reformers; and revenge (a.
Mr. BAINES said as the law stood the gusrdians could against them at the least) will produce all the effects of corruption.
not apply to the purposes of emigration ee' en., larger elm He would only further observe that so far from having it
the half of the average rate for the last . three yeah, and
this in his intention to attack the aovernmert •.,n the present oe-
tould only be done on the author .ty of a vow; meeting, i casion, he only
spun to call upon the tome to encourage
legally convened, and, involving, r Ater, the delay and ex- I miniateri to er'ter ._
___ „ the Path,. of Oheir duty by agreeing
penes of a poll, 'orris in the case calf one pauper only being to ,to his motion. He ueggen therefore •*.e move:
be sent out. It was now proposed to dispense with the That whereas a greater amount of taxation is levied upon the peo-
vestry themrely reouiring the concurrence of the . ple Mani.. required for the good and etbeicat government of the
United kingdom• and wherees tarn ~,,,..
glardhal seed eaneeeen of the commissioners.Al err expended in support-
! Ming needless places, extravagant ukelele see . sal, works and
Mr. W. MILES objected to the principle of taking away ' establishments ; and whereas the preemie s -„:,•on of country do-
the lothlority of the vestry meeting. I presses an
CdtaZateleand especially thy! PA°l4;tri;ff rime'. by diminish.
Mr.EICP, objected to the power being continued in the of skis house that ad
sql,),:t7,,,sent of - .oduetive labour, it ie the opinion
should be forthwith adopted to
natty, ekinking that the necessary forms would effectually reduce the expenditure of the •
of overnment.
preerat any emigration being sanctioned. The CHANCELLOP
sthe EXCHEQUER said the
Mr. P. SCROPB suggested that ttie clause should be honourable member -ate much
withdrawn for the present, and bniught up in an amended insisted upon errs- . adverted to an argument _
- nserly, namely, that there was a much
form on the report higher proper •
zonate d t on low priced articles con-
Mr. BAINES consented ft) this course, and stated that he 'timed he the labouring elapses than on the higher
would fiee notice et the "...awe, as he proposed to amend it. priced ..
commodities used exclusively by the rich.
To clause 16,
Mr. BAINES ..
vroposed the addition of the following: -vro_ 1
twoto
would be merely re.arguing an exploded que-
ue into that branch of the hon. gentle:wee
Tile: "I'r ...did that the abiding of any such -Amor person I speech, for the tendency of all recent fiscal ler:Litton wail

to abandon the ad valorens gstem, an.) to impose 140 dative
on all chnimudities. This cou se had tended to increase
very largil,r imvirtati xi of the articles of cense:n-' 4os
most in del :and amongst the Lib .uring clams. The hoe,
member also said that it would be desirable to take
the pressure of taxation from off the poor and impose
it on th. rich. How the hon. member would effect h-s pew.
prim, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) cenl i rot e.vine.
But he would only seam rep; atrha- the whole teen- epee ;if
recent legislation had teen to effect this v. ry ohj.et, *The
last s-vea years, inehrling 1842 to 1819, had unloosed to
unvarying system of relieving from Liza! on all srtieles of
common and universal emsumption. The eight
honourable bironet, the memoer for Tarnworai,
and the gmrnmewt of which he wee the
and the prevent minister, rep elm' er r.ducid revhs on
snide' first necessity, or in their raw state, to the amount
of 9,000,0001. These duties had been made up hy the come
tax, which bore extlu.ively its the richer classes. Was that
what the honourable mber meant by shit jog
the burthen of tension from the pow to the rich?
It would have been more satisfactory if the hon. En-nth-we
had explained in what mod) he pro nosed carry nut the
prineip.e of taxing the rich. Some lad r, ermrarnded the
establishment of a sinking fund ; but that wso now ennsidersd
an exploded doctrine. it was, fur some ). are, a favourite
doctrine to maintain a sinking fund and a consoleraids

amount of taxi iou lo,Huotnuet:erharotettde.C. e:trarimtineoent:sadwppor:bEensporigtedibreenvika.urti
awtitthhisiddrnaosy
ttheunpirveeorselnt
to that policy. Then the hon. ntl onan said that the pro.
ductive pewee of this COWltfr eiget he increased to Bra
times its present amount. lie we. Mei ed to think teat it
might be ithreased to • mit, iderehle s et at, but he did not
think it would be wise or judicious by any notratim of
government to lower the rate of biter. st, the inevitable
consequence of which w be to give an impute to
over-specul.tion. The hon. gentleman sail that they
ought to reduce the expenditure ea the country.
Had they not voted a o widerable reduction in the came-
diture and establiehmentsof the reentry ? They had effeved
larger reductions in the lure, of the c enemy then had been
effected in any former year; and be it remembered that for
a year and a ball it woe nut it the power of the government
to supply the demand fir additional force la 1818 there
was scarcely a mattufacturieg town that did not apply for an
increases 1101711 of troupe to protect the lives e' the people.
A reduction in the force, to the amount of 10,000 men, wet
Made this year. The proposal male by toe government
met with the concurrence of the house; but the prep eel to
carry the reduction farther did nut met with the cent u• rence
of the house. With regard to the navy, the receeeeton had
been 3,000; and the opinion of the house was that the reduc-
tion had been canoed as far as it was expedient to carry it.
When he stated to the house generally that r deaden- in the
course of the last two years', eff, Weed by "oh rumen*, had
been made to the amount of 236,0001, he did not
think they were open to the chart. .1 having been
unmindful of a reetict on of expenditure. In the
course of the present ye• r they had wavelet ited the
whole of the Pay-office. The reduction in offices of
a minor scale had been 1,0 less than 16,0001. on account of
salaries. There had been a reduction of 47 per cent. in the
amount of salaries paid, end of 33 per ern'. in the amount
of persons empinyed. In the home-office there had been
reductions to the amount of 0,774 a veer. The hon. gent.
talked of the enormous imenber of persons e.nployed in the
treasury. The whole establishment of the home Aka
was eighteen permit( ; the whole estate ishment of the trea-
sury was but twenty-four, :elusive of parliamentary offices.
It was not a third or fourth of the number of pt es as empl led
in foreign countries. There were only 130 plifi',lll for
the treasury, exchequer, and pay office. In the French
treasury alone, the persons reeploted were more
than 600. He did not think it posehle that the duty could
be conducted with any greater reduction of numbers. They
had made a re auction in the salaries in the Treasury to the
amount of 2.6001., with a prespective saving of 10.0001 a
year. In the Audit-office there was a save" el 4,0001.
lion. gt nett:nen talked of patrenatte. Ha had the right of
appointment to one solitary place, and be had sbelished it.
In Chelsea Hospital there was a saving of 1,700!. a year.
In the Stationery-office a saving had been made to the
amount of 31,000/. this year, in tee 'epee's,' or prim-
ing ; and further arrangements had been made by
which there would be a saving of 50,000/ a year.
The resolu'ion moved by the hon. gentleman seem d to
express censure and Mem', which he thouget wee not
deserved by the government, and if they amt.:eel to it they
would appear to be taking blame to thems Ives which was
not borne . sat by the facts.
Mr. HUNIE was almost ashamed to answer the state-
ments If the right hon. gentleman, because they had twin
repeated four times in the house. Tee question submitted
to the hou-e was, whether more money was reeled than wee
wanted. The terms of the hon. trentlemen'a motion
scarcely did justice to the subject. The hen. g' ntletran said
that the day of party had pose by; he (Mr. Hume),
wished that that war the case. lJnfe.rtunately, up to this
hour, he found that party operated to reject me mires which
the country eppreved of, and which, If follow• d up, would
metier a great benefit on the country. He thought the hon.
gentlemen had scarcely done justice to his own me tiun ; he
'meetly knew in what way he supported his own ellegatioes.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer had a complete answer,
and he (Mr. Hume) agreed with the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer that it was nor the ministry, but the House of Com-
mon., that vraeresponslble. Lest year, on the proposed to renew
the income tax, the House of Commons evince' their decided
opinion against it, and then the ministers came
down and revoked their we lution. He wished that
in the present case the house would show the mselves equally
alive te the pressure of taxation, but members did not
think of the manna r in which the taxes were meted, and
consequently did not trouble themselves mnelt about it. He
did not deny the benefit they had derived from chanties ; he
only complained that they had not carried them further.
lie entirely concurred in the motion of the hon. gentleman.
he cnecurred that a greater amount of te 'Wien was levied
on the people than was required far good and
efficient government. lie concurred that lerge sums
were expended in supporting r e places,
extravagant salaries and unnecessary works and es'ahlish-
meets. Perhaps she house was not aware that in
1810 a great effort was made to get rid of lairs sine-
cure offices. Mr. Bankes, the member fee Dorset,
took the lead on that occasion, ant the house and the
country were so anxious to put down site:to nets, that then
existed in the gift of ministers, that they arlepted a pesos
by which officers in civil app entments Omelet have a legal
claim. That had gone on increment/. In 1810 the whole
amount of charge was 94,550/. The len, kit inc adopted
giving power to the officer in charge of the department,
for a long time they included wheal they thought fit.
They took in whom they pleased, and the mteleishment of
the 601 list had jemmied by the control which the Treasury
had over it. He found day by day individuals repre-
senting themselves as udfit for business, who were alloweetto
retire in perfect health to enjoy the full amount f their
salaries, merely because they served a given time. The civil
department had gone on increasing; in IRIG i* was
230.5341. ; in 1820, 291,0681. ; in 1824, 38.8,0031 ; in 1826,
478,2361. ; in 1827, 484,031/. The civil superannuation
payable 31st December, 1848, was 644 7471—itself almost
amounting to the whole pay of the civil establishments at
the time they were appointed. By a paper which was lard
before the committee of 1828, the half pay, which was
celled Vansittaree dead weights was 5,455,0001. We had re-
duced the amount of military half pay, hut where had in-
creased. The half-pay lief of the navy wan 843,0001. a year
in 1828 ; at this moment, after a long peace, it was 770001.
Was it possible to be otherwise when the neve* was made the
means of pensioning off thousands of people, not for actuel
service, but because they were in service ? A paper which
would he laid on the table of the house would show these re-
sults. One admiral had served 18 years on full pay from the date
of his commission, 'nil he had been 33 year, on the h al f. pay list.
Another admiral who entered the service in 1790, served
10 years, and received half-pay 41 year. ; another eight
years and one month, and received half-pay 49 yearn;
another nine years and 10 months, and received half-pay 43
years. (Hear, hear.) Going down further, he found indi-
viduals who had served three years and two months re-
ceiving pensions for 3G years and seven months; another
serving four years and receivine a pension 3.5 rears and 11
months. They were told by some persons that this coun-
try was richer than any ether. If that were true, the
money was in the hands of the great capitalists; and if they
meant to keep up a high taxation, those were the persons
to pay it : they must tax the property, not the poverty, of.
the country. (Hear, hear.) 'Why should they levy in cus-
toms and excise forty millions on the labouring clones, who
were less able to pee, It now than ever? (Hear, hear.)
The labouring classes paid a much larger proportion of
the 67 millions raised in 1849 than they paid
of the taxation of 1792. He admitted that thew numbers
had increased, but still, taking them as individuals, their
proportion was much higher tow than formerly. lie con-
tended then that the two great mewls of relieving the work-
ing classes of this country would be, first, to look fairly end
strictly into our military establishments, in aid of which
reform the colonies must be made to defend trees-
selves and next, they must re-model the valeta
system of taxation. (Rear, hear.) His reason for moviee,
that the income-tax should only be granted for one year. WA
been to procure a revision of taxation. On that moire a
revision was promised, but no revision had since taken place.
He should support the motion of the hon. member as
step in the right direction.
Mr. EWART said that there were only two ways of re-
lieving the couatry, direct taxation or an extensive reduction
of expenditure. He doubted if the hon. member for Surrey
would be inclined to adopt the fiat, and therefore he trusted
that he would give all his assistance towards esrrying out the
letter. lie could not concur in the hon. member's prolieni-
tion of the sinking fund, which had been so judiciously
abolished by Lord Althorp.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that when the hon. member for
'Surrey invited the house to agree to a motion made by him
some days or weeks since on financial subjects, he Cdr.
Gibson) was considered to be a little squeamish, and unwill-
ing to agree to what appeared to many hon. gentlemen to be
a reasonable proposition, because he moved the previous
question. He made theat motion then, and if the hon. mim'
bee had submitted similar metion on the present occason,
he should have taken a similu course, and for this wagon,
His first wettion wee simply to come into committee of the
whole ItrAme in order to do something which was shadowed
forth in the bon. member's speech. The motion only
asked for a committee, and it was not to be supposed that
he would go into committee for objects sbaiowed ken
in a speech to which he did not agree. He, therefore, cm"
not have reasonably been expected to vote for the bon.
member's motion. (Hear, hear.) But here the hen.
member presented himeself in a different guise, end alai °r.
a distinct opinion al to whether there did exist a mart
expenditure which might bit cut down, still continuing
good and efficient entem el government. He merely inked
them to leave the votes of the House of Commons sr :tette
thatto
e r, v.
itashaeshessa.sktsatt;reifi
Tptetioresehlowrrinatettilioembne(er
deliberate
aosinb expenditureelt:tins
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