The Express.
London, England, 1849-06-28 00:00:00

condemning the present system. There could be no doubt
that the county rates had, during the last six er seven years,
teenaged enormously ; but it should not be forgotten that
the increase wee owing to the necessity of building new
prisons. (Hear, hear.) Without providing ample acoom-
rsodation it was impossible to establish the separate system.
With regard to the motion before the house, he hoped it
would be met with a direct negative ; and he would recom-
mend the mover of the amendment to postpone it until next
session. No report worth reading could be made in less than
six or eight weeks. (Hear.)
Capt. HARRIS concurred in all that had been said in the
debate with regard to the advantages of the separate system.
Mr. PALMER believed that the separate system was fee
superior to every system previously carried out, He wee
old enough to remember that in the Reeding .gael may
years arro there was an utter absence of claenkedes of
m reel discipline.
Sir G. GREY expressed his gratification at the favourable
testimonies which had been that day given to the system of
solitary confinement. From the best information he had
received it was found to be a system which more nearly
than any other combined the two great objects of deterring
from crime and of reforming the criminal. As to the ex-
penes of building prisons under the present system, it was
much 165 a than the cost under the old system ; for inetenceel
the cost of cons' rutting York Castle was 1,2001. per cell ;
whereas, Reading geed, built upon a far superior principle,
under the new system, only cost 2001. per cell. In
relation to the reports of the prison inspector.,
he had recently directed a circular to these
officers, requesting them to limit their reports, as much as
practicable, to the actual facts which come under their 0b-
.....ti0n. There was no doubt that the question of prison
discipline was open to enquiry, and were there sufficient time
for the enquiry this session, he should not object to the ap-
pointment of a committee at once, but considering the late
period of the session, he thought i; would not be expedient
to appoint a cemmittee until next onion.
Mr. IIUME said that from the closest enquiries he had
put to the moat experienced gaolers, he was sathfi el that any
system of prison discipline would be wholly futile for reforma-
tion. Of the number of committals, even under the separate
system, from 30 to 40 per cent. were recommittals, and upon
the whole extent of committals he was satisfied that 60 to 70
r cent. were recomtnitt Is. The great object to be arrived
at was preemies in the fleet instance, by the means
of an extended system of compulsory education, pro
vided for by an education rate. He trusted that the
rosy first business of the ensuing session would be a
committee to inquire newly into this most vital subject
with a view to the prevention of crime. It would be found
far less expensive in the long run to counties end to parishes
to educate children than to prosecute and to maintain grown
criminals. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. ADDERLEY quite emscarred in the expediency of pre-
venting crime in the bes: way that could be desired; but for
persons in prison he certainly thought that the separate sys-
tem was the most effective.
Bir J. WALMSLEY fully concurred in the necessity for
extended education, as a prevention of crime ; but the im-
mediate questiou was the proper discipline for criminals.
There was a great 11161.11 of Juvenile delinquency in this
country which required csFecial attention.
Mr. WODEHOUSE concurred in the expediency of ex-
tending education.
Sir J. PAKINGTON expressed his gratification at the
assurance of the government, that this question should next
modem be submitted to the inquiry of a committee.
Sir H. HALFORD, for his part, after the assurance of the
government, was quite willing to withdraw his amendment,
and he presumed that his example would be followed by the
Lon. member for Lambeth.
The amendment having been accordingly withdrawn,
Mr. C. PEARSON, in reply, said that he had not
brought forward the motioa for a committee on prison disci-
pline en the ground that the discipline of the model prison
at Reading was a failure— a question, however, upon which
he was ready to join issue with its defenders—but he had
asked the house to assent to the appointment of a committee
on the general question of the acparate system, which system
the returns for those years during which it had been entorced
showed was productive of insanity to a frightful extent
amongst those subjtesed to it. The system against ehich he
raised his voice was that which exempted from menus!
labour convicts sentenced to imprisonment for their crimes.
There was a report from Reading Model Prison, which threw
a curious ae.d i structive light on this subject. The
report stated that there were only two in-
stances in which prisoners had refused to perform
any labour. One of the persons to refusing was a
London pickpocket, who was taken at Ascot in the exerci-e
of his calling, and when be was required to handle the pump
to wash out his cell, he refused, lest his fingers should become
se coarse as to lose that delicacy. of touch so necessary tor the
successful practice of his profession. During his inquiries at
the Model Prison, he had encountered an officer dressed in a
costume, with lace stripes down the aides and uniform but- I
tons; on asking what he was, he answered, " Prison trade
instructor;" and on further inquiry it appeared that he
I taught the convicts the art of knitting. The man blushed
whilst he stated the fact.
Viscount BARRINGTON said a few words in corrobora-
tion of Mr. R. Palmer's statements respecting the Readoie
model prison.
The motion was then by leave withdrawn.
BANKRUPT AND INSOLVENT ME3IBIIIIS.
The house then went into committee on this bill. On the
int clause,
Mr. COULBURN said that as the house had adapted the
principle of the bill,and had agreed to abandon the privilege of
freedom from arrest now enjoyed by members of parliament,
he would state his views on the subject. Formerly when
arrest by miens process was legal, the privilege of freedom
from arrest was necessary, but now that process was abo-
lished he saw no reason why a special mechanism for mem-
hers of parliament should be created, but he rather was of
opinion that they ought to be placed on the same footing as
all others of her Majesty's subjects. He was, therefore, in-
clined to leave the qui lion open for the expression of the
opinion of the upper house.
After en observation from Mr. HUME,
Me G. BERKELEY wished to know whether membore
of parliament receiving consignments from their \Vest India
properties were to be treated as traders under the bill, fur
such in reality they were ?
Mr. HUME asked the Attorney-General whether West
India property depreciated in value could under the bill be
tendered as security for a judgment debt, provided it could be
proved that the a state coat considerably more than the
amount of the debt t
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it could not.
Mr. C. WYNN said that in his opinion the house was
going a little ton fast in legislating on the subject of their
privileges, which were never yet made subject to any other
control than their own. (Hear, hear.) A simple re solution
of the house to the effect that the privilege of freedom from
arrest'would only be enforced in such and such caws would
have all the effect that the present t ill was intecded to pro-
duce ; end this course would he attended with the advintage
I that the House of Commons would thereby continue to he
on the same footing of equality which they now enjoyed
N regarded the other house—(hear, hear) —whereas if
I the present bill passed, and at any future time the
I house desired to revive its privilege, it would be
necessary to ask the consent of the other house, and if the
House of Commons was obliged to ask the consent of the
House of Lords to a bill 'fleeting its privileges, that would
be establishing a degree of inferiority between themselves
and the other house. (Hear, hear.) The best way was to
I suspend the progress of the bill, and to pass a resoled in to
I the effect that the house would not in future viten* its
privilege of freedom from arrest in certain cases.
Sir W. CLAY appealed to the hon. gentleman who had
charge of the bill wbether after the clear and lucid statement
of the right hon. gentleman who had just addressed the com-
mittee he would still persevere with it.
Mr. HEADLAM said the principle of the bill had already
received the sanction of parliament, and be thought it would
he advisable still to persevere with it. (Withdraw, with-
draw.)
Mr. LAW moved that the chairman report progress, and
ask leave to sit again in order that the bon. gentlemen who
had charge of the bill might be enabled to introduce reeolu-
tinns to meet the objections which had been raised. (Divide,

divide.)
Mr. HUME suggested that a great deal that was desirable
might be accomplished by an act which could not be done by
resolution.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said this bill proposed to
repeal a portion of the act of the 62nd Geo. 111., which could
not be done by a resolution.
Mr. HEADLAM asked for the opinion of the learned At-
torney-General.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said in the first place be
should feel inclined to defer to the opinion of the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Wynn). But in a matter of this imps ranee
after the motion for rtporting progress, he should seem-
meniltbst that motion should be agreed M.
Bourn were ordered to withdraw, but no division took
place. The chairman then reported progress, and the house
resumed.
BENEFICES IN FLURALITY BILL.
Mr. FItEWEN, in moving the second reading of this bill,
stated that he was aware objections had been raised to its
passing, to met t which, if it were now read a second timo, he
should move that it go into committee pro forma, in order
to introduce considerable astendmtnts, and have the bill r:-

printed.
Mr. ATMS wished to inquire whether this bill had re-
ceived the sanction: of her Majesty's government, because it
opened up a very important question, affirming the principle
that pluralities ought to exist. He objected to that prin-
ciple al'ogether, and should oppose the second reading. At
any rate he should object to proceeding with thehill until the
retu►ns ordered on the 3rd of April, showing the number of
pluralities that had taken place since the plating of the mea-
sure to which the bill referred, should be on the table of the
house.
Sir G. GREY wan not prepared to assent to the measure
in its pr sent state. He saw that many improvements might
he introduced in the present system such se the consolidation
of many small benefices, as was already done to a certain
extent. He agreed that this was not the time for entering
upon such a question, and he recommended that instead of
adoring the course proposed to be take, by the hon. gentle-
man who had charge of the bill, he should new withdraw it,
and it he thought Et to introduce a new bill upon the sub-
ject.
Mr. FREWEN assented, and the bill was withdrawn.
GENERAL AND QUARTER SESSIONS BILL.
Toe bone • then went into committee on this bill.
The preamble wan postponed.
Clauses 1,2, and 3 were agreed to.
On clause 4,
Mr. HUME Inquired whether the bill originated from any