The Express.
London, England, 1849-02-27 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVEN:IMA FEBRUARY 27, 1849.

andestad las argument. (Hear, bear.) He teed disdained
tho Oman* of atuolang dither the Moils et* PI
gouroneuth ani le pallid esewistesey with that • , he
had made tho nosed motion. (Han, bear.) Theregeee,
is soles bin ben trion, he (the Olmatee et the Be
eberrer), felt tW e was ad anal em 4giboa Amy the
genesemeet with Ai& be waseenesete; or Ins unthaws
ea the opposite side. Sr beg tnly
_shied that aura/
Janssen to whielt.ho hakelledede lead bees made with the
=ilousearnom of • that orldrulligg talisman ;
t might bet Mseasteed w that la whisk such
large majorities of this home had malmously auciorred
was quite to wrong ge the his. gualema was disposed to
think. He meat eat to take dieslises to the
ninon points to whisk the heaserablo had
refined, differing, as {boy & eel Wilt asmmsae, or theta.
sank bat non Milne ; sad he wished to aid the quo-
tin eillipasaal Immo, on is the fairest manner. (Hear,
bear.) He meld net allude to the mie with which the hon.
geminate* bed Woodland his speech,—local taxation,—not
quite mein the waned= it had with the conclasie that
had been eme ; but he Mega the hon. geedlemee mat
admit that away rates sad ether had team of that demi,-
tin bad increased, owing to the improvement Mee moat
yam had introduced tato our prison dissieftie. oaeolog
a better and fairer moans of providing ho the sesoode,y
punbasents et criminals, and in securing the hewer mow
mediation of the unfortunate persona now nutgou to ono.
tends lunatic asylums instead of the miserable abodes to
which they were formerly consigned. (Hoar, hear.) Passing
by that question, with that simple remark, he would address
tumult to the main argument of the hon. gentleman. Again
he would take no exception to his reference to 1836.
The bon. member for Montrose and other persons, on
former Gamins, had refereed to 1792 ; and he taw no
objection whatever to referring to any prior year, to see
what alteration had sines been made. But it that year
were to be taken as a standard to which we must necessarily
go back, two conditions were necessary first, that the yeas
so taken as a marled should be one in which adequate pro-
vision sou made for the public service and, secondly, that
no subsequent change had take* place in the state and con-
dition of the couatry. The hoe. gentleman said that, by
returning to the standard of 1835 in naval and military ex-
penditure, a reduction of ten millions might be effected ; but
it was right that the accurate state of figures should be laid
before the house. It had been stated truly that the gross
expenditure of 18481'8854,1135,0001; and 0(1835,44,422,0001 ;
the difference being little short of ten millions. But the
whole of that Meuse was mot attributable to the naval and
mfatary essablidemeede of the country. (Beer, bear.) The
ban. goodeman bad retard to one item which he must admit
teMen extracedimmensmeo—that of the Ksffir war--an un-
foreseen and unexpected expenditure, which it was impossible
to matrol in this country, and which had been mainly in-
toned almost Wine the necessity for it was known to have
arisen here. He had also referred to the sum of 276,0001.
for the Leith distress. These ought not to be murdered per-
simmon items of expenditure, but should be deducted from
the general expenditure of the year. The hon. gentleman
had referred in milder terms to the increase of expenditure
far civil purposes, and had even expressed himself ready to
give a larger sum under that head. But there was also a
large increase in that expenditure since 1835, principally for
the judicial establishment and the Irish constabulary ; and
the increase upon the miscellaneous expenditure was
2,372,0001. Hence, deducting from the whole sum of surly
10 millions, that which was of en extraordinary character,
and that which was for civil purposes, there was only left an
increase on the naval and military expenditure dais, tasted
of ten, milions. If, therefore, the hon. gentleman were
enabled to carry out his favourite notion of returning to the
expenditure of 1835, he would only make a reduction of
six Mikes in the naval and military expenditure.
Bat he had said that he wished not to object to
details ; be wished to meet the hon. gentleman on the point,
that it was not consistent with the true and host interests of
this country to effect a reduction of the expenditure on the
naval sad military establishments to the extent which the hon.
gentleman proposed. He hoped that was patting the question
fairly to the house ; and he did not think the hon. gentleman
himself would complain of the terms in which he proposed to
meet his motion. His only anxiety was that the opinion of
the holm should be deliberately expressed on the quell.
tion of the great reduction proposed. He might safely
assume that experience had shown that the provision for the
public service in the year 1835 was not adequate. He would
first take the navy. In 1835 he became Secretary to the
Admiralty,and had devolved cm him the duty of pupating
and defending the navy estimates ; and, during the funr
yeors be had the honour of holding that situation he had
beenexposed to attack after attack, not for extravagance, not
for Mussing the estimates beyond what was due, but for a
parsimonious disregard of the best interests of the
country. (Hear, hear.) The years 1831, 6, and 6, had
been pointed out as a reproach to the successive government@
moving the estimates in those years ; and yet the very year
which was the lowest of all was now pointed to as the
pattern you to which our expenditure ought to be reduced.
(Hear) If there was one subject on which they bad heard
more than another from all parts of the house, it was the
neeingity of having some naval force in the channel. In
1885, there was no naval force in the channel at all ; not a
▪ line-of.hatle ship was there to be found in any part
of the channel. The hon. gentleman was wrong in saying
that the alarm about Russia induced an increase of the fleet
in 1836; the ground was that there was a demand from
every station for increased protection to British subjects and
British trade abroad. It was not until 1838 or 39, that the
hon. members for Birmingham and West Kent
had dilated on the danger to which the shores of
the country were exposed from the possibility
of a Russian invasion. The hon. gentleman had
gone through the various mess which had led to the increase
of the naval force ofjets country ; and he had certainly
made out • remarkably good ease for a larger force, in each
year, than had existed in 1835. At one time, there had been
the Chines war • at another, the alarming state of Cana ;
at • the possibility of a rupture with France about Mr.
Pdltbaad ; and then, the dispute with the United States
than the Oregon boundary. (Hear, hear.) There was not
• year in which it had not appeared necessary to have •
awe throe than in 1835, if we pretended to mint tin the
ineemis of this country, and adequately to protect its com-
mime abroad. In 1844, the number of men voted for the
any was 36,000; but the right hon. geodes= opposite,
the. In dice, found, after one short year's avenue, that
dist was too kw • point, and In the able statement to which
seferencie had been made he had laid down the ground, not
as arising from any temporary emergency, or from a par-
tisan, state of things here or abroad, but as the permanent
gioned on which he thought the number of men in 1844 was
ea adequate for the due protection of the intereets of the
country: and he had then named the force to the
number which Mod in the estimates for the present year,
40,000 mai. But the government of 1844 and 5 had evi-
dently net thought that number quite sufficient ; for when
their successors came into office in the autumn of 1846. they
found that the number of men borne was considerably above
the number that had been voted ; and on the Ist January,
1847, the anther born* was actually 4,000 more than the
timber that had been voted. Lest year they had reduced
the number 4,000, thus bringing it down to the number
voted. Having take. • vote for 43,000, they had endow
mired to justly by their vote the number that it had been
found naminey to maintain. This year the number proposed
to he voted was 40,000-8,000 lees than had before been
thought messazy. Now, what were the reasons which had
led to the image ia 1845, which were true then, and were
no lose so sow In the eastern hemisphere a lam; field had
been need be the employment of our naval hue which did
sot exist in 1331, At that time the trade to China was cor-
ed en
_poiesbally by the Bast India Company. (Hear,
he=Hee firalreid, too, had sines been added to the
pagemigne of the grown. (Hear, hear.) And, so hr
hen be. loath bring • perfect antidote to all necessity kir
goologthe to on sonummos abroad, the more we extended
ma abeam aad our eammerce, and the more the world was
empled with British neestry, the larger uses the demand
mods, and which mast be met, for protection to British it
• and mama, in whatever part of the world it was
mein en, by means of our navel tomes. (Hear, hear.)
Thee same raismat applied to the increase of the military
fora of the . It was not asee-eary for the
of koala lows peaddion of Canada, whin tgiriste.
Mbrbadlnly doesibrel as the most contented pan.
a the thee of the gide ; it was not for the purpose of
keeping down eves the pepulation of New Zealand, or for
the peolostise of the seethes against the warlike attacks
whisk had beam Rada apes the., and with some difficulty
repelled, dada the Met two yews. And when the has.
W Aineded the deed% enjoyed by the pope-
Tett califeth amen is babe those fields open to them,
whore they might ebiafs subtheme* so easily, it had seemed to
bin that dee mesa less not ill laid out, even for the purposes
ofthieaery►V,sytheeextendingtheprotecting arta of the
MIK ostaary, they provided certain- fields -for British
industry and enterprise, to become, in future yearn, the
gust mums of the supply of raw material to this country,
aid the 'neat seams of demand for its suaufacetired pro-
dun (Hoer, bear.) Bat, since 1835, another great change
bad taken dose in the creation of the steam navy. In that
nee ors hardly possessed more than two or three steam.
moth; no staluievemel had crossed the Athens_ and mil
could de se. (Hear. beer.) Since that time. no emu esti& bad beat written to prove that it was impodde=
be Imisagat of the W-° development whisk bad been
ghee to steam as applied to navigation ; and it had been
emenry, looking only to what other powers had done' and
with a view to our own most efficient protection, to have
am immense steam navy. He apprehended these were points
en which it was scarcely necessary to ask for the approval of
the homes. Far this purpose • large expenditure had mess-
seribdaase immunal, tooth in the article of acres and in the
g
ma melds, of the steam navy. In the article of
Num • large imam had become undoubtedly necessary,
swag te tbs. having been allowed to fall very low. The
aseamithes distinctly stated in their re port that the vote for
stirs. dilated essentially from other votes, inasmuch as the
ant estimate applied not to the consumption of the ensuing
year, but bad reference to a more distant period of time ;
hero the offset of undue reduction was not wholly percep-
Mitio until ism years after it had begun to be made.
Now In that raped he did not find that an_y wasteful pur.
chase of WM181144 Ma attributed to any department to
any year. Though Ma port of the naval service, yet
eat at stem- padost gavial between the different parts of the
world and this caselry was included in the navy estimates.
He did not With thee was a commercial or manufacturing
Illailber in that home who would object to the improved
olennetnionise between Ude country and America and
the Bad nyodi for if a perms in the
amnia banl kedse, more than others by that cm-
amisatiee they were them whose transactions with
distant part of the world were facilitated by rapid
istargoeuse. (Haig, hear.) Well, then, taking these throe
heads, game, Whinge, sad the packet service, the therms
um them was no lass than 300,9001. between 1835 and
1848. Upon two of these heads he believed that a undo-
rabbi reduction might be made now; he believed that the
which had been necessary to bring it to this point
steam navy had attained its maximum and that the
buildings
would not be required. There would be no name of ex-

=l7me Ms him head—quits_the mintrary. Were the
4. 81lit AillinkoHY illeniadfal of this in the estimates
which they laid hiders the h? these twe heeds
of stern and beading, the was no less than
638,000 f. If, thirds's, he alone that the image of
men wan Jolla bg the eirenmetanoss of the country, at tire
time whoa it meg psegesed. If be had *hewn that the hi-
.erased eagehditlmr eel *me and buildings had been jusei-
fled by the nammity Of Mating a steam navy, whilst at the
same time he had shows that it was not main-
tain that large expenditure in future—(hear), he
thought he had given an answer to the statements of the
has. gentleman. He must say that to urge any Isms re-
daction of the army, any reduction larger than that width they
made, world met be doing justice to that service. He be-
lieved that In no other part of the world had any army per-
formed sash minis, for their country in time of peace as the
!shish annigisehimed for its country. (Hear, hear.) The
seldkes of.. ether country were exposed to such vicissitudes
exeXwaiperhaps that portion of the French service which was
em in Algeria. In Germany and Hurls the soldier
'pest time In his own country. (M ar, heir.) Wes
such the cue with the soldiers of England ? On the contrary
from the hosts of Canada to the tropics of the
West Indies and the burning plains of the East
Indies he passed from one excises of climate to
another—Led performed his duty equally in all. (Cheers )
He thought it would be cruel to be hard on such a man as
that. (Hear, hear.) The araument of the right hon.
gentleman (Sir R. Peel), in 1845, was, that with the force
heretofore maintained it was impossible to fres the soldier
from exposure to such excessive labour ; that with the num-
ber of men then maintained, it was impossible to give him
those five years at home which were his due. The average
period which the British soldier was allowed for the five
years between 1834 and 1839, was only four years and one
month, instead of five years. It was necessary, there-
fore, to increase the number of the army, in
order to afford the soldier that time which was
thourht neceesrry to recruit his strength after the
hardships to which he was exposed in the colonial service.
(Hear, hear.) That addition to the army was made, and
the military authorities were thus enabled to carry out the I
regulation which allowed him five years at home—iodised,
he was allowed rather more. At present there were 11 regi-
ments at home with more than five years' service, and there
was only one regiment in the colonies which served for
somewhat more then 10 years' service. Though the
period of service was nominally 16 years, yet the re-
giment* were kept abroad for 18, 19, 20, and 22
years, and in one instance for 26 years. (Hear, hear.)
Who wa• the rigid economist fa that house who would say
that that was a fair principle ? Would he say it was worth
while for the sake of economy to permit the waste and ex-
penditure of life on the part of the British soldier occasioned
by it? Even in point of economy he thought it would be a
waste to continue it. (Hear.) There were now four regi.
MM.) in India which had served for more than 10 years. But,
in consequence of the increase which had taken place, they
were able to bring the s ystem of rotation into effect. They
could now, however, afford to make the reduction which he
proposed to make without at ell infringing on the due rota-
tion of the service, which was so fair and so well due to
the British soldier, whilst at the same time they kept on
foot, as was the duty of the government to do, • force suffi-
cient to meet the present requirements of the country. The
hon. gentleman referred to the events of the last year. He
concurred with the hon. gentleman in thinking that the
great mars of the population of the nation were well affected
to the crown and institutions of the country. (Hear, hear.)
He believed that the spectacle displayed by this country last
year was one of the brightest moments in British history.
(Hear, hear.) But when the hon. gentleman went
on to my that it was not to be expected, whilst
those great revolutions on the continent to which he referred
took place, that this country would have re-
mined wholly tranquil, and without attempt at distur-
bance that very circumstance half proved that it was
of essential service to the country that there should be
that amount of military foree which would be requisite to
put down those agitators and disturbers of the public peace
who might have endangered life and propent to a consider-
able extent if they had not been restrained. The hon. gen-
tleman had been temperate upon his remarks on this point,
but he bad seen elsewhere--he had seen remarks of the
Liverpool Financial Reform Association which were
not so temperate in their tone. He had seen a
statement of that body to the effect that there
was no pretence for keeping this army up but to pro-
vide for the younger sons of the British aristocracy. (Hear,
hear.) He did not know when this new light broke in upon
the people of Liverpool, (bear, hear,) because at the time
of the excitement in this country the people of Liverpool had
made applications month after month, for additional forces
to protect life and property in that town. (" Hear, hear"
and laughter.) Regiment after regiment was sent at
their request, and even an encampment was formed
in the outskirts of the town. (Hear, hear.)
A petition had been sent up praying for the suspension of
the Habeas Corpus Act. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
Now he did not think it was fair, he did not think it was
just, he had almost said it wu nothonest, in those gentlemen
who so largely benefited by what they had—and who asked
for more—(laughter)—to turn round new and say that the
only use of the British army was to feed the younger sons of
the English eristocrasy. The next source of increase was a con-
siderable one—that of the ordnance service. Upon that they
did not even propose to make any reduction, because be
believed it necessary to maintain in full vigour that
branch of the puldie service. It was one most expensive and
difficult to raise in the first instance. He believed that
every man of judgment who referred to the events of India,
must admit that it was most disgraceful to this country,
which was first in the artsof wares well asof civilisation, that
they had never gone into action in which they were not
over matched in artillery. (Hear.) The priacipal increase
of expenditure was occasioned not by the increase of force
merely, but in consequence of these awes in guns of both
Imo and mull calibre, which improvements of recent date
had rendered necessary. It was notorious that in cannon
and in small arms great changes had recently taken place,
and it would be cruel and unfair to send British soldiers into
action without putting into their hands the best and
most perfect weapons whirl modern science could invent.
(Hear.) When the changes which rendered the increase in
the ordnance department necessary were completed, they
would be able to make • large reduction in the ordnance
' estimates. The feeling which was so prevalent 18 mouths
ago respecting an invader created the necessity for different
works In their dockyerch. But though he did not participate
in that alarm to the extent which some persons did, he
still thought that they would be neglecting their duty if they
did not take measures to give increased protection and secu-
rity to their navel establishments. (Hear, hear.) Then the
government had been greased at various times to rinks provi-
sion for improving the moral condlebn of the British soldier.
Well, better barrack accommodation was provided, and there
were separate Wracks for married men. (Hear, hear.)
These were great and useful objects, but they could not be
obtained without additional expense. (Hear.) The hon. gen-
tleman alluded to the increase in the miscellaneous estimates.
There was • considerable increase in these estimates. That
increase had taken place in items which had been pressed on
the govemmeat by the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.)
Since 1886, perfectly new charges had been put upon the
miscellaneous estimates to the amount of 690,0001. The
ordinary increase from year to year had been 1,000,0001.
But as four article, alone—the transfer of county rates, the
increased vote for education, the increased expenses on ac-
went of convicts, and the increased expense of printing—the
MCMIMI of expenditure amounted to nearly 700,0001. (Hear.)
The hon. gentleman said that there was nothing in the pre-
sent state of the world to lead them to suppose that there
was any likelihood of • disturbance of that peace which they
at present enjoyed. He very much concurred with the hon.
gentleman in that. (Hear.) No man could have foreseen what
would be the effect of those effervescing spirits in France.
Would they have been_justified at such a time in redueing
the army and navy ? The noble lord, at the head of the
government, declared he was net prepared to strike off one
man. The events which had afterwards taken phoe last
year justified the government. But they were in a different
position now. It was admitted that in many parts of the
cont rent those who were the leaden of the movement had
not meek nuoartios:Fielethenmelves. (Hear.) They
found that revolution he • losing concern. (Hear.)
TjLeirlrest and solikbonr had shown that she was
y disposed. by maldm a mnsiderable reduction both
her arm gad navy. (Ham, hear.) lie believed that
the conduit OM mils friend onMihntad very much to the
pone of Thus hoof Mon pins& pamiees had cooled,
end pestlmoa to am what was the value and cost of
revoked* and war. The chances of maintaining peace were
therefore mush greater now than this time lest year. He
behaved in like meaner that there was less dagger at home,
Imam flea law imendladm who media ontalto the
perodetion of tNmantry tellawiso disturbance bad it im-
pala& to do so. (Hear.) The people were employed ; mills
were at work throughout the an dhtricts.
(Hear, hear.) He was surprised that the hoe. gentleman
had not made a single allusion to the sister c many, because
the apprehensions of disturbance in that country were not
inconsiderable, and it was not the fault of certain parties
them that the disturbance had not taken place. (Hear.)

Kr. COBDEN said he had made allusion to Ireland.
(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In that
country large *umbers had assembled together for purposes
which could not be mistaken, for they were openly mowed ;
his conviction was that nothing but the presence of a large
military force prevented the outbreak of an insurrection
which certain parties had been cool and wicked enough to
attempt to provcke, and it was no fault of theirs that the
insurrection did not come to a differentosult. (Hear.) Them
was but little risk of an insurrection now in that country.
That being the case, the government had felt it to be in
their power to propose a considerable reduction both in the
army and in the navy. He would now refer to the state of
affairs in India, where the war which prevailed had
caused a demand upon this country, which had been met
by studio; three regiments. Those regiments had been
taken off the British establishment, and had therefore ceased
to be a charge upon this country. The actual reduction of
numben was 7,000, while three regiments had been taken
off the charge The army last year stood at 113,000: it was
reduced by 10,000, leaving 103,000; rather more than the
number in 1845, and rather lees than the number to which
the army was raised in 1846. In 1845 the number was
300000; in 1846, 108,000. Last year the government wire
enabled to effect a considerable reduction in the estimates,
without making any reduction of forgo. He wished now
to state to the house the amount of the reductions which
were secompliiked last year without any redaction of
force and of the reductions which, as appeared in the esti-
mates already on the table of the house, had been made
partly' by a reduction offeror, partly by a reduction of stores,
and by other means which ha need not detail. The reduc-
tions effected last year, in the course of the session, amounted
to 828,6001. ; the reduction in the estimates of this year, as
compared, not with the Mend estimates of this year, but
with the reduced estimates voted at the end of the session,
were, in the navy, 710,8564. ; In the army, 378,8244. ; MOH,

arduous, 387,8731. ; making a total redaction In the naval
and military expenditure of 1,447,3631. He did not antici-
pate any great reduction in the miscellaneous expenditure,
on account (as was understood) of the large foreign expendi-
ture ; bat, taking the reductions made last year, and those
made in the estimates wbieh had been laid on the table orate
house, it appeared that the entire reduction already amounted
to 2,276,8631. (Hear, hear.) The honourable gen-
tleman had referred to the charges for the collection of
revenue, and expenses of that description. The government
had net been unmindful of that subject ; they had not been
induced, for the sake of providing patronage for his noble
friend, or any other member of the government, to keep up
any offices which wera unnecessary. Last year they put
down the office of Paymaster of Exchequer-bills and that of
Paymaster of the Civil Services, consolidating them with the
office of Paymaster-General, and thus effecting a saving of '
salaries to the amount of 18,0001. The other day he had an-
nounced the cinsolidation of the b suds of Stamps and
Excise. There would thus be effecied an immediate reduc-
tion of expenditure to the extent of from 8,0001. to 9,0001. ;
and they might expect a further reduction to the same
amount. In like manner the government had appointed •
commission to inquire into the collection of the customs. In
spite of the anticipations of his hen. friend, he did not think
that any large saving could be effected in the collection of
that branch of the revenue. But he found that even in their
first report, a draft of which he had seen that day, the
commissioner, had reported a reduction, in round numbers,
of 60,0001. He did not think such reductions inconsider-
able in dealing with such a matter. When the hon. gentle-
man talked of the extravagant expense of collecting the
revenue of this country, he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) must, beg to tell him he was entirely mistaken on
that point. In Emend the charge for the collection
of the customs was under 6 per cent. ; in that neighbouring
country which had the advantage of such admirable ac-
counts, and of the services of • director general, the charge
for the collection of the customs was between 12 and 13 per
cent., just twice what it was here. (Hear, hear.) The
charge tor the collection of the whole revenue of this coun-
try was about 7 per cent. ; in France, it was 11i per cent. ;
and in another neighbouring country, which had th advan-
tage of institutions more democratic than thou which pre-
ailed here—he referred to Belgium—the expense
of collecting the revenue was no less than 43
per cent. (Hear, hear.) Now, the hon. gentleman
had alluded to the pressure of taxation in this country. The
question thus raised was one of those which it was very
difficult to meet with proof'. The general assertion
made was one which it was very easy to utter,
but he suspected that even the hon. gentleman if called upon
to prove his position, might find it very difficult to do so.
(Hear, hear.) It was his (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer's) firm conviction that, taking the income,
of the individuals in France, and comparing
them with the incomes of the individuals in this
country, his belief was that taxation bore a much lees pro-
portion to the incomes of the individuals in this country
than it did to the incomes of the individuals in France.
He was at • lose to understand on what
ground it was asserted now almost for the first
time in all those associations throughout the coun-
try, and, as they had been told that night, in the organs of
public opinion, that the pressure of taxation was so very
rayons. Why, in the last 28 years there had been taxes
repealed or reduced to the amount of nearly 20,000,0001. ;
there had been imposed taxes to the amount of 9,800,000/. ;
the country had in that period been relieved to the extent of
9,899,0001., or very nearly 10,000,000 k, from one description
of taxation or another. And the change thus made was, he
repeated, more material than it would appear to be from
simply considering the amount, because, whereas taxes hsd
been imposed upon property in one shape or other, they had
been taken off those uncles which the people of this country
constantly consumed, and the raw materials from whicn
many of those articles were manufactured. He entirely ap-
proved of that change. Let it not be thought that
he was finding fault with it in the slightest degree. (Hear,
hear.) He entirely agreed with his hon. friend, for example,
that the absence of any duty on corn lest year was essential in
the then state of the country. Hon. gentlemen might remem-
ber, without requiring him to enter into any details as to the
pest, that when he asked them to renew the income tax for
three year?, he expressed a hope and an expectation that, at
aay rate, in those three years, the income tax being renewed
and the other taxes maintained, the income of the country
would mere than equal its expenditure. He said se with
some reserve in the early part of the session, because as he
thought hen. gentlemen would readily admit,
things were so uncertain lost year that no men
could very well answer for what would happen six
weeks or a month from the time when he was speaking. To-
wards the close of the session, however, he renewed this
assertion with greater confidence. He then said that he be-
lieved the expenditure would be kept fairly within the limits
of the income; and he was happy to state that his experi-
ence during the time which had since elapsed had full
borne out his anticipations. The period to which
his anticipation had reference' extended up to April;
the experience which they had had ceased on the 6th of
January, but it was no very extravagant supposition that
the income of the current quarter would not be below that
of the corresponding quarter of last year. Now, he said, in
I tie month of August, that he anticipated that the ordinary
revenue would be 61,660,0001. ; that the old stores and
appropriations in aid would produce 600,0001., and the
China money 80,0001., making the income 62,130,000. Hon.
gentlemen would see, on referring to the balance-sheet of last
year, that what was there called the ordinary income, W.ll
62,422,3381., and that what were called miscellaneous
receipts, which formed the last three items, amounted
altogether to 118,0001., making the income 62,640,9941.,
instead of 52,130,0001. He had estimated that 80,0001.
would be received from. China money ; the amount actually
received was 84,0001., while the amount received for stores
(as was understood) was, dunag the three quarters of a year,
308,0001. Throwing out of account the amount received
from China money before April last, which it was net fair to
reckon this year, the income of the year up to January was
52,933,6931. Tterefore, his estimate up to April having been
62,130,0001., there was about 800,0001, more than he had
anticipated. The expenditure had been estimated by him
last session at 62,422,0001. It had, in fact, been rather
more. Excluding the Kaffir war, the naval excess, and
the vote on account of Irish distress, which, as he had stated
to the house, he did not reckon as ordinary expenditures,
excluding those three items, which amounted to 1,820,000 k,
the expenditures was 52,563,3481. Therefore, after deduct-
ing the extraordinary receipt from China, before April, and
the extraordinary expenditure to which he had just referred,
the income up to the 6th of January, 1849, was 62,933,6931.,
and the expenditure, 62,683,3481.; the difference between
expenditure and income being, he was happy to say, a sur-
plus of 370,0001. (Cheers.) _ -

An fox. MEXBIR &skid what wee the amount of the
duties on earn ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
amount received on account of corn was about 780,0001 ;
but the customs revenue for the year ending Jan. 6, exclu-
sive of corn, was higher than the income which be had ex-
pected to receive from the customs in the year ending April,
1849. (Hear, bear) Therefore, the statement laid before
the house was most satisfactory. Totally excluding corn, the
customs revenue up to January exceeded what he had anti-
cipated up to April ; and if the revenue in the present
quarter was as good ea it was in the corresponding quarter of
last year, excluding corn, it would exceed his esumate of last
year. He must fairly say that he dissented from the princi-
ple which the hon. gentleman had laid down, a to the
making of the whole financial statement at that period. He
did not feel oompstent to do so ; but this much he did Mate—
and be thought the statement would be satisfactory—
it was notorious that he would loss some biome in the
course of this year by the cemation of the corn duties. It
was equally tens that he would loos that extraordinary
source of income of which he had availed himself last year,
namely, appropriations in aid ; and he was sorry to say that
all receipts from China money had come to an end. But,
nevertheless, making full allowance for the whole, and mere
than the whole, of what he should lose in those re-
spects, reckoning that he would lose 780,0001. on
corn (though, la all probability, there would be
some receipt from that article), slowing for 600,0001.
which he could not expect to receive again from
appropriations in aid, aced further allowing for the absence
of 80,0001. from China money, the loss of income from all
them sources could not, at the utmost, exceed 1,360,0001.
He had already stated that the reductions in the estimates
of this year, as compared with those of lot year, was
1,447,0001. • a sum which exceeded any possible loss of
revenue. Without, therefore, going into details, he did not
think it unreasonable to expect that the Income of this year
would be greater than that of last; and unless be was disap-
pointed in that expectation, the expenditure would clearly
be wilds the income. He had, he hoped, convinced
the house of two things—firat, that it would not be safe or
wise to reduce the expenditure at once or immediately to
the amount which the hon gentleman proposed ; and se-
condly,thatthe government kaiTnot been unmindful of the ne-
enmity of effecting ell those reductions which they thought
could be effected con.istently with the real interests
of the country, and the real welfare of all its industrial re-
sources. Under these circumstances, he trusted that the
house would express a decided opinion upon the question
which had been submitted to it.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL expressed his surprise that no more
distinct reference had been made to the ewe of Ireland in
connexion with this subject, when it was perfectly clew that
Ireland had much to do with the financial question now
exciting such vivid attention in all quarters. He had no
hesitation in declaring his conviction, for instance, that had
anything like justice been done to that country, two-thirds
of the enormous outlay there for army, constabulary, and
political prosecutions, would have been saved.
Sir D. L. EVANS said that as several ri [(renew had been
rather personally made by the hon. member to the military
and naval services, he begged to !say a few words on the
subject. The hon. gentleman, as bad been shown by the
right hon. baronet, had in his comparative statements made
• slight confusion between ten millions sterling and six
millions ; but still, in his general proposition as to the expe-
diency of decided reforms tn our expenditure, there could be
no doubt the hon. gentleman was much in the right, end it
was earnestly to be hoped that material reductions
would be effected. The hon. gentleman might, with great
advantage to his cause, avoid the personalities which he
and those who acted with him, thought proper to indulge
in with respect to the army and navy, not so much on this
occasion, indeed, as on other occasions and elsewhere.
Mr. HUME expressed his deep regret that the honourable
and gallant gentleman should seek to infuse bitterness of
feeling and personalities into a discussion of such grave im-
, d which, by the previous speakers_, bad been con-
ed withaned such courteous moderation. The increase of
our naval and military expenditure was truly stated to'
have been the work of parliament itself. Yes, it
vas the constitution of that house which lay at the bottom
of the mischief, occasioning the creation of a number
of officers in the army, navy, and ordnance
infinitely greater than the most efficient maintenance
of these Berrien, could require. Moot assuredly, mem.

ben of parliament would hate scut tuir
property as they had dealt with the national pft,,t -2
Bible for wfwweiorereanth.yeatontkusrusetbutoanoolathi:liarergriti,:csadireeao.ormwedoWnsle:tak4;ll.6—..-.
ments of the army and navy without feeling a acesr,frth_
ritbTfitLit,beevyeretwpooefborbrel bF;einaPstnnabeisdpabblethßiy
olfgfiremttbhAebesocial:".tesgeiosowYzi
association's papers was strong, let those who qurrens4,l76
it contradict the facts and figures contained in the published mem—
by the Resonation, and never mind the He Snit
e had only one or two observations to make
speech of the right hon. gentleman the C 64
of the Exchequer. He was very sorry is
from that minister that the greatest efforts the govensiggst—
was disposed to make would only just bring the z • —gm,
within the income of the country. The papers now in Ai
hands of hon. members rhowed a deficiency in the ordisare
revenue of 800,0001. on the current year, the defici
year being 2,500,0001. The house was now told thuttheis
wr
to be an equalisation of the receipts and the expeoditen;
ay
the risht hon. gent/enlist had called for the congnetstosZ
of the house on his having achieved so mush as (17,,,
Hems's) bon, friend, the member for the West Riding, nig
said very truly that the people would be direatirfied with**
proceedings of the government. But the Chancellor of tells.
chequer had also stated that great reductions had bean mark
in the taxes. The only observation which that sssetties
called :or was that, although taxes might be altered is this
amount, they still bore heavily on the labouring claims, mg
always had a tendency to depress consumption. The Chia-
cello!) had asserted that what he proposed to effect in rppea
to reducing the establishments ought to satisfy the
and further, that they ought to be satisfied with what
been done since 1837 in reducing taxes upon theist's's:islet
life, and the raw materials of the manufacture,. What ism
the state of the case with respect to the revenue and exm.
dimes since the year 1837 ? In that year the revenue wes
50,600,0001. ; in 1838, 61,300,000/ ; in 1839, 51,900,0001.;
in 1810, 61,800,0001. ; in 1841. 52,300,0001,; in 184 g,
51,200,0001. ; in 1843, 66,900,0001, ; in 1844, 58,400,0001.;
and in 1845, 57,600,0001. Was this the way in Willa the
people wire to be satisfied ? Beery year the revenue drum
from their pockcts increasing, and their burthens Weans
heavier, and yet the Chancellor had told them ti
night they ought to be satisfied. He (Mr. Rsm)
would tall the Chancellor that the country would am
be satisfied ; the people wanted relief from their be.
theme, and the mere shifting of taxation would am
satisfy them. The Chancellor bad asked wherein the
pressure was so heavy, and had slanted that Bd.
glum and France were heavily taxed, and that the
people of England were better able to pay their taxes time
those nations were. He would tell the Chancellor in Nog
that his astertion, even if true, was no excuse for takii
one shilling more from the people than was required for aim
service of the country—and there was much more lend
then the real wants of the nation required. The cemednie
of 1848 had pressed that necessity on the home in Mel ee.
port, but with very little effect. The expenditure bed,*
gone on, and the Chancellor now told the country this ihr
were to expect little relief. All he could promise Me.
that no new debt should be incurred, but there .rsemon,
duction In the expenditure or the taxation. 'am jo►
meat most assuredly would not he satisfactory to the tar
tion. There would he meetings held throughout the eneany,
and sorely would they regret to hear such a statements.
the givernmect. He wanted to know what were then,-
eumstanees which rendered so much larger an amount if
expenditure necessary now than was required in 1,35. Tie
hon. and gallant officer (Uinta' Brans) had welted Mt
hon. friend made a mistake, and that the addition/ expos
ditare for the establishments of the country was 6,000,000/
and not 10,000,0001., since the year 1835. But if the born,
and gallant officer looked at the revenue 'nouns, he wend
find that the expenditure of 1835 was 44,000,0001., whiln
that of last year was nearly 54,000,000/. So that there wit
no mistake in his hon. friend's statement. The mistake
lay the other way. His hon. friend called for redone
of the establishments, but not an instantaneous redueties,
He only called on the government to follow the precede*
that already existed. The hon. gentleman then promoted
to cite various parliamentary precedents for the course an
proposed, and be thought the proposition before it nettle
meet with the approbation end support of that house. So k,
from his hon. friend having a weak cue, he had made oata
very strong one, and his arguments were similar to than
used by Mr. Pitt, in Lis speech on the permanent pin
establishment of 1792.
Mr. HERRIES called the attention of the horse to what
was the real proposition before them as it bad been submitted
by the hon. member for the West Riding, which was not es
represented by the hon. member who had just rat don,
but was that, before going into committee, the house should
at once determine to reduce the national expenditure tea
millions sterling. The right hon. gentleman the Chatted-
for of the Exchequer had complimented the bon member for
the West Riding upon the moderation and forbearance with
which he had introduced this motion ; but better be violist
in that house and decorous where inflammatory language
might produce ill effects. (Loud protectionist cheers, echoed
from the ministerial benches.) He could not but think that
the conduct of the government last session had materially
assisted in promoting that spirit of agitation the consequence
of which they now telt. If the estimates had ben debated
as they ought to have been last year in that house, salted
not been withdrawn from their consideration by the appoint-
ment of a committee, which committee refused to entertain
the question of their policy, in al: probability such an espls
nation wou'd have been afforded by the ministers of tits
crown u wou'd have been perfectly ntisfactery both to
the house andPo the country. (Hear, hear.) He thought,
therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had some cause to
blame himself for that agitation which in the speech he
had just made he had done great service in arresting. Be
' (Mr. Herrin) was of opinion that there were solid and
good reasons for the exchequer being in the state in whin
they now found it, and that there were hope! of effecting
some not immaterial reductions. He would now trouble the
house with a brief statement of the comparative program of
the expenditure and revenue in France and England, en-
mencing with the year 1820, when the armies of oceupatin
had been withdrawn, when affairs in Franee might be raid to
have settled down into their normal state, and the Freud
budget was placed on a footing on which it might be
expected to remain. In the year 1820 their buten
was 35,000,0001. ; 1821, 35,208,0001; 1822, 38,000,000/
From the. year 1822 until 1830 they seemed to have coin
ducted their affairs with great regard to economy. Dating
the whole of that period, which was the legitimist period,
with the single exception of the year 1823, when a very
advised expedition was made in Spain, which cat OM
8,000,000/, their expenditure continued to avings
38,400,0001.—sometimes a little over and at others a
less. In 1830, as they all knew, a very considerable shags
took place—a revolution—(all revolutions were expensive, end
those who promoted them should tell the people so)-0,
awed. (Protectionist cheers.) In the happy year of the re.
volution the expenditure was raised to 60,600-0001. Is 1831,
it was 44,000,0001. It then went on 44,000,000/, 41,000,0004
40,000,0001., 41,000,0001., 42,000,0001., 44,000,000/ Is
1841, it was 48,000,0001. • in 1642, 64,000,0001 ; in 1846,
62,000,0001. • is 1844, 55:000,000/ ; in 1847, 60,000,0004;
in 1848, 72:000,0001. It was remarkable to observe how
Lite. the
pyi= became in proportion u poplin
plies . (Cheers from the protechociels)
nut could not pas over this portion of the ons-
patison without adverting to the dogma which kid
been propounded to the worth people of Manchester, to the
effect that the beet asieguard fora country against war, 1*
cause it was a safeguard against the expenditure which led is
war, was an extremely minute subdivision of property. Tbs
argument of course was, that by such a subdivision every en
wu made to feel the effect W. expenditure in his own pernet,
and that the consequence would be to prevent war. Re
jesuttedrete.hanonsed
to, hroemweemveher,
rtothalootkit
watasthdeuriangtatithmeepertogrhe had
ma
such a subdivision of proprty that the French espenditare
had so much increased. When the hon. gentleman west
again to Manchester with the view of inducing the people to
to recommend to them a democratic,/ in the place of a no'
redactionagitate Eitherr
inst
'mythical form of government, he should at least tenth's
tbofethr explibildeinturet "ode of taxes, tfaxbrftes boyr grth.a
this truth, that if they preferred democracy, they mast pet
their hands deep into tueir pockets to support it.
lir. RIIME.—Look at America.

Mr. HERRIES continued.—He could not compare the
American government with the English, because it wee ill-
possible to tell what the expenses of a government was
when every independent state had an exposit.
tare of its own to bear. He was not gein
however, to defend extravagance or any unnecessary ea.
psnditure ; but be was going to show that we had bent
more careful than our continental neighbours, and thattbers
had been nothing like a sudden passage in our expoiclibm
from 38,000,0001. to 72,000,0001, as there had been *
France. (Hear, hear.) He found that the income of this
country from 1820 to 1825 was 66,000,0001., just about what
it was at present. Daring the next five years, from 1825 0
1830, it was 64,000,0001. From 1830 to 1840 it avenged
47,000,0001. The expenditure of these years from 1830 is
1840 was the least from the year 1820 down to the postai
time; but it was one of these years which had been closes
by the hon. gentleman as the standard to which the preset,
expenditure was to be reduced. (Hear, hear.) During the
next five years, from 1840 to 1845, the expenditure nee $
49,000,0001.; and last year it was 64,100,0001. The malt
of the comparison, then, which ho had instituted bete?*
France and England for the last 28 years was that in *2
latter the expenditure was nearly the same now as it Wil
years ago, namely, 56,000,0001. ; whilst in France it had
then from 35,000,0001. in 1820, to 72,000,0001. in 18*
(Cheers.) In reviewing this period of our history, ther+
was another topic worthy of consideration, and that wits the
amount of taxes which had been repealed of late yea''
(Hear, hear.) Ile found that Once the year 1814 taxes had
sbe3794,roooeduice. d
Aogranaenttirethalyt, moved, tlO
otfhneewamtuounestwof
been created, so that there was a total diminution in d*
annual taxation within the last 36 years of no lea that
39,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) This was a result of whka
England had good reason to be proud, for no other mutt/
in the world could exhibit anything like a comp***
with such a satisfactory statement. It should opersieto".
over, as • lesson upon those out of doors, who woe
clamorous for a substitution of direct for indirect taxation;
and should show to them the advantages of a mixed system m
taxation. (Hear, hear.) Now, he must say that the motion
of the hen. gentleman the member for the West Make bla
been exceedingly ill supported. They had all heard of it fall
singe, and that was to have been the night when the
was to be fought. How had it been fought (Cheers 1"
counter cheers.) Why, the hon. gentleman was pinfegij
abandoned, apparently by all his friends. /Cheers
ironical laughter. Why, nobody rose to second . CO'IO newed laughter. The right hon. gentleman the C'
cellor of the xchequer had certainly manta
slated the motion. He (Mr. Henries)/
the
Apt hon. gentleman had resisted it more
still he had resisted it, and that was wwwww

The belt. smatter for Meatless ibl set tackle to the mottos
at all ; bed sot steed by the modes. He (Mr. Henke)
wee foe redacties if yea scald make it ; he au quite ready se
p with the hes. member for the West Ridirl, IS he weeM
as map by sae, and take preesatiose, bat he scald set
Were that the hos. somber was lamest I. seeking this
nodes. (Heir, hear.) Ho did set think that the hos.
member for the West !tiding satkipated any inmates frees
We motion.
Mr. CUBDEN—WaIt; wait a little.

Mr. HERRIIB—He hoped they would ease to the
diera•sioa of these actuates in $ different spirit; tbat
than would be as wart desire to effect** utmost possible
roduet:oa He Oswald wit have addreflied the house on this
Nutria had it tot bunt for what had fallen has the hoe
member ler the West Ri4irg, who had provoked his to
sake • emrsion between misc.:matey aad that of Fran*,
u e the r elt which he WM sole would be eatisfactory to every
Esilishasan.

Mr. 11.0311380 N thought it was net my to
the landed interest to find a anandel looks of dietwo
tarsi party holding out such aluderlsopse of way menial
reduetioa la the expenditure of the emotry, and men at.
tempting to cliaeourage those who had plans to offer ; comp
iag the principle of discouragement so far as even to threw
some count* oa the government for the efforts they wens
makingle to recluse the expenditure. (Hoer, hear.) Let him
the right boa. geatleman and his hta. friends that
whatever they proposed in the naa f relief to the landed
interest must have its foundation upon a realuctim of expen-
diture. (Hear, hear.) Tte honourable gentlemen bad
complained of his honourable friend holding one kited
of lenguage la this house and another sort of language at •
public meeting. Decorous here, tie bon. friend was said to
be, but violent and inflammatory at Manchester. He must
own that there was an earnestness in these public meetings,
upon the question of relief from tuition, which might draw
speakers into • degree of enthusiasm. (Hear, bear.) It
use quite natural ; • speaker always sympathised with his
audience. (Hear hear) It was a reuse principle le
say that Vas iinersise of peepers era at all in favour of the
safety of our institutions. Teat seemed to be the argument.
The ri,ht hon. gestalt:au tidi Clime nor r f the Ezchequt r
is his ans. er to his hon. friend, said he did not know whoa:
Meal taietiou had to do with the quakes ;—why was the
million of local burdens to be introduced ? It
bad • very Important bearing se rtgarded the
agricaltuzil interest. Y.O could not transfer any
portion of your heal rates as a burden on the
state; ton could not go on the principle of having a ea-
tionsl poor rate, of bringing is the aid of the cons tlidaut
fund to any of the other burdens without reducing the ex-
penditure, and his hon. friend was for reducing the expendi-
ture, and thus enabling you to deal ia the way you wished
with tome of these local burdens. Secondly, it had another
and very strong connexion. The groat, r the amount of
Peal tax aloe in the country the stronger was the claim that
the e %penes of the gent ral government should be Ism It
appeared that nearly all the general wants of gaiety were
sepplied by local taxation. A country in that undit
lion had an indisputable claim to have a general
government carried on at a proportionately it Is rate. That
war the ease in England, and it was his firm belief that
Ryland, with • large amount of local wants supplied by
loul taxation, might be the cheapest governed country in
Europe, as far as the general expense was concerned. He
believed that it was not necessary. to carry to so large an
latent the ponce erablishmente and military and natal
armaments. Toe right hon. gentleman's whole so ech was
beside the question, Hie honourable friend intro-
duced into his speech a gnat number of specialties;
he said • great number of these augmentations of your war-
like e•tabdshm tot and expenditure have been caused by
special occasions • and that all theta special taus of
acre:tee have tamed away. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer, not satisfied with his frieno's specialties,
supplied more ; he said that we had created • steam navy;
he sp-ke at 2,200,0001. for stores and stem navy, more ft/
lees of a temporary and special character, and therefore it
would not be maimed as
_part of the permanent expeub-
tare of the country. Ho (Mr. If. Gibson) must say that he
appeared to him to lave argued more powerfully in sagest
of the proposition of his hon. friend the member k the
West Riding than any of his friend@ would be enabled to de
to-night, because he bed not disputed the arratracy of nay of
thou specialties whisk his hon. friend had sated as causes
of the augmentation of the expenditure, but he had added
hither specialties of his own. His honourable friend asked
of that Louse anon more to interpose with its authority and
saaetioa to retinae thane viewing charges by the same sum of
10 tablas@ of obi* is 1535, as compared with pace-ling
rZ9they had bees loud safely susceptible. (Hoar,
.1 Han. gestlems• en his side then bad the test of ex.
prance to show that their project was practicable The
proposition before tee bens. was no matter of mere specula-
tive pos4bility. thsides, the right hon. but., the Chancellor
of the Ettehequer, had biaself recognised the plate of the
member for the West Riding as practicable in
principle. The Clieseeller of the Exchequer had
already helped Wm on Ids way by indicating reductions
to phi tone of two million and a half. Now he (Mr.
ahem) was sanguine as to the feasibility of his boa.
friend's 'theme for reducing the expense of our mili-
tary easbliebutents mach farther. And he was the
men sanguine on this head, when he found men of the
highest OIL sal statics, and of the greatest reputation in this
matey, widely differing from one another on the important
quotas touching what should be the proper pereseneat
soak of these establishments. (Hear, bear.) The Duke

d wisps lied( wee en examp!* 1e *lffy the
elemblien 'BMW he (Ilift. M. o%een) eseorteherd,
that on natters of this Idol gamy ems Ilea ups one
eatilso standard to whiel, ea the hen. member he the
liding to the year 1828, be was secestomed to win
The stand& d of the illesteiess duke seemed to be tbe year
11104—(laughtee)—sed he had distinctly maimed his
ressone fee sliewAsi it. Be quip nod that the newt
of thew nallkang opinion upon the Peale of the
unseats we aught to keep up was this—that the whale
genies was a sestet party. card, which was alterast=l
by en seed nab assn "Oast swear. These
banes the visas dab" prolessiant astboritise ea gash ride
wore seat pentodes to mesa Ida kinelforho,witlegot pada
alsed 'sporting" as sash subjects. were willies to be main
an to bow to authorities Now, as the right has.
seater for Staialord (Mr. Berries) bed most truly elit•
reireld), the wry "net ou which it might have been
insetted that the eimumitne to who.. it was referred to re-
pen ea these estimator, woad most especially have throated
It attention, was that wash it sow reseed they were
expressly precluded fres rein tat. M all, rearly, what was
• roper amount at win* tbe MON& as she of
0118 Uaited Kingdom_ Wl* WS: tied. Me wasted
seem explanation sheen the that the seam be the
dockyards Wife immoral penises to UM
He anted to lawn how it jaAeasi, Ia lfffio the and
stens were ge heasS to the et the essetrp.
as dicer of Sk T. 'a_ high Waft sad ehaerest,
no dna meet miseet Mg4tsha la the British nem
and have boss aimed ' he the psopristi et *1
rolustione whin Sir Jens bet
_veined ad
1411. V
eanied. Mae.'Me saadar /1r (Sir J. libeheed
as e la 1021, nesorsaim sbibi
what he as negate and twee fa the_ MN
atabliehmat at that tine. The seinsreaffenss=
the e ined hes. areas. eseppried et d
el Moshe gni le Aminsi aersilai gm the mina
is,. of the latereses sag Iles leaser et the may.
An he weed say ea die abject wee, that am MI of
the snow* d the pawn naval force wag tab dented
aulleleat by the am basnee—no this issued
mann as nit the aselllnt wWi mix law la
Winner. thaelhoe, was the judieselha he their
increase ease his sesinew, fa retains to the Lamed
datives ef friarveslai psoleis, we bed sew double
lity whoa lbst Anise ae leans edited. Mar.) If
amen stenos eat Ina was /sally so low tea--sad it had
bola vegable den sobriety to hareem* it—ln begged to ask
isadsma swam low it happeued that is the wry first
elleallenessold by the Duke of Wellianea aid Sir
Behest Pal la WAS they bad pentad 1,000 sea IMO
with a rahallea d wady 100,0001., on meant et nag
Ira the tight hat baronet (Sir J. Online)) had
issesed salaam he all regulate purposes a pnlseifea la
ho peV year 1 (Hear, hear.) Ware the hes. pads.
an to explain bow the sob). dyne aai the_ viihl
hat. et (Sir R. Peel), with the fads elleielly bane
then, add have mama mesh bother veduline Ina. If
the assent of stores sad the sender of Mill la Ina_ ow
away redwood too low, or wale age POW Mid 1.11 Wit
(Hear, hear.) He add only =Oda this anneleas state el
aka byor:=Uentetbil=thieessives had *WI
that tine tor do many d re-
ducing th. grades eqpsadlaw• of dr se service',
sad that all inemasate, whether wag er toy, were
compelled to permit the inerease of their establish-
new' by the power of profession' iallegaess around
them the moment the public attention append to be
withdrawn, fres any cause, bob the grans adds d
oar expenditure. What wag de ass of son bop
establishnents during peen between this eusey
and foreign states ? A few Lets night densairsies
to the house its ensue. 0a the Ist of Mar* 11101,
we actually had 31 ships of war, arsad by
8337 men, as the Me&terraneen bean mina
(Hear, bear.) He would ask what possible 401111
was to be effected by maintaining this large ansainst In dm
Mediterranean ? Did it ensure us are Yule? WINS
large degree of protection did it afforll-411 the Insuldie
that we had all those ships of war in those wenn nab is
merchant ships in the Mediterranean to enter any port awe
es better condition than the shipping under any other leg?
Did English shipping enter those ports coder say prate
atinatagee than ikon which were extended to the merehant
venal' of Hamburg, of Breven, or of Lubeck? (Hear,
Ina) Or was the paean ef gush large analuagate ender
our flag is the Ileditinesime neeespety to proton our
saerehantmee from the attacks of pirates ? Wen there
any pirates in thew seas? He believed there were
(" Oh. ") Bea if thew were would these Use el
battle skips be capable drumlins into creeks end IWO
to which say the pirate vessels would nowt se mad Sow
selves from panels ? These were not ea all the ohmstab-
On meow dear to the protection of our esentlelle bat
Pire47. ("plasmas pirates could be effectively attend. Del
ths Oren, sad as the woutia-eastern end
Aseaviek we had a lave heerease la our fora. In the is
Tuna we had tourtesa, sad in the other twelve, nips are
ilea. ("No, se.") Yes, altogether we had 26. He bed
purposely give& Se largo* ander, banes, el.
though at sae time then were only 17 ee
ga
Km them
=ii y he was iadediai the
wad awe ariewary to be sappHed
ie to
aad whisk dead Illsealsee be easspased la the
ei
the whole lbws espial far the eatine wash an
sow main (6 ney lareesely boss an). dye
Facile sad the e.aplens Mit et Aah.
with tin vu. New whet were ail Imes dip then tea I
gZettil hest a pad deal
ad nag the aessaity of
esdr apnlien. apsielli that el desk
on). 0( snpeeramin et WNW Mins la dr eon
*NW A seesperiesa bad bow dims bsbassa Ike SW&
bit Of war ipwa dips led olldn sad Heal =dabbed by

Frame, sod it wee argued that we Rest maintain
env term on the same footing and establishment as Frame
maintained hen. Bat did the home know what was the
establishment in this. nevem' wide k was kept %p by France
end the IJaited iltres ? Did the hems mesider what wee
the @steal relative expenditure of these establishments in
these states tempered with the sharp upon our own
mosso I, (Hear, bear.) Rad sow a few weeds as to the
relative number of officers la the naval envies of this.
imentries. He had carefally eicaspared the French
navy list with that of Ragland, and he found
that In the French navy there was but 1 full
admiral, is the English they, were 31. In France
there were 10 viesadmirals ; In Upland 45. Is France
rear-admirals were 20 ; is Bs land 72. The Preach navy
had 100 captains ; the English Wt. There were 200 ?meek
eannuteders, 976 English ; end whilst on the navy list of
Frame there were 600 lieutenant', on oar own there ware
2.353. (Hear, hear.) 8o that while 931 °Seen in Frames
were all that was respired to take care of her navy and pro-
tect the 'Agresti of her commerce, more than 3,931
ware required to take care of our own. But did the house
know what was the eonspleient of °Seen in the Unite
States' navy ? What would they my when they understood
that the United Stags navy did not =Wall one admiral,
whilst we had 150; that they had no vice admiral, no rear-
admiral, and that their establishment misaisted of 67 cap-
tain., 47 commanders, and 327 lieutenants. The excess of
our own establishments was felt in the charge set only of
our effective force but also in our int Elective force, and this
was or should be a material item fir the emeideration of the
house. He was at a lose to understand why her Majesty's
governmsnt should hitherto have confined the redac-
tions both in army and navy to the redaction of
the men, and sot of CifiCtill (Cheers.) He considered
that whatever might be the extent of reductions deter-
mined on in establishments, the implement, whether
of regiments or ships, should be carefully maintained.
Rodeos regiments, but Lot their emnplements, reduce
**number of ships, but not the effective strength of their
creep. (Hear.) He neither wished to se* regiments that
were remised crippled to a degree of inefficiency, nor
crews sus down to a scale incompstible with the proper
working of the ships. The right hon. member for
Stamford (Mr. Kerrie") had taunted themwith lakewermnese
and lan gout to supporting hie hon. friend the member for the
West Riding. He could tell that right hie. membl.r that
he gave to his hon. friend's amendment his most cordial
and conscientious euppot:. He did sot think the repo-
eition either a wild or a visionary one. The hsn. member
concluded by calling upon the house to passe before it treated
the present motion lightly, for however visimary such pro-
positioes might rimer in the first instance, they afterwards
twee to be received in a different spirit. He trusted that
the leaders of the agricultural party would not tarn their
backs upon what was sure to give relief to their constituents,
for agnculture as well as manufactories were equaly Otte-
res:ed in the IMMO of a mo:ion which was brought forward
with no other view than that of promsting the interests and
welfare of all classes of the community.
- -

Mr. URQUART oppootd the erneadatent of the hrs.
member for the Wert Riding.

After Dome words from lir. ANSTIT and Col. SIBTMORP,
- . . . .

•
Loud calls for the division from both side. of the house
followed, and, ■s no on• offered to rise, strangers ware
ordered to withdraw, taut before the galleries were cleared

Mr. BRIGHT roes and said The right honmnble
member for Stamford (Mr. Itemise) has read us a lecture.
It is quite evident that out of deers agitation is not palatable
to him—(hear)—and yet he has found fault with the: quiet.
nese which hu reigned during this debate in this house. fhe
right hon. gentleman brought forward • great many pa; en,
bet, vvvvv team, wished to make it appear that he delivered
!Memel( of aa impromptu speech, the object of which was to
show that my boa. friend the member for the West Riding
was wrong about Francs. My has, friend did not ray what
wee imputed to him. We ought not absolutely to regulate
our polities or our expenditure by any other country under
heaven. It we do not undentaed our own baldness, I thick
we cannot go to my other country when we shall be able,
not merely to see something better, but to learn how to
practise it. Bet go to a country where our own race is
governing itself, under institutions which carry out in prac
tins that which is the theory of the constitution of this
country. I think the right hon. gentleman made some
allusion to America. We have heard during the progress of
the discussions upon this question that the increase of
population from 183.5 to 1849, is no small reason
why there should be some increase in our ex-
penditure, That would be a very valid argument, if
it were the duty of the government to feed and clothe the
people; but as the government only professes to govern the
peop:e, I doubt the strength of the argument. I have, how-
ever, • memorandum here, which I have taken from a work
that it would be well if hon. members would all read; it is
written by Mr. Mackay, of the English bar, aid is entitled
"The Western World," a book which every perces may
read with profit. The memorandum I have taken from it is
on the special subject of the expenditure In America end in
this country. It appears that from 1832 to 1836, the
maul avenge expenditure of the United thane
we. 21 mihions of dollars; and that, in the
fear years ending in 1846, it was 22 millions of
dollars. la 1835 the population was 15,000,000; in 1845
it was 20,000,000 ; so that while the population of the Sates
had iseremed by 33 per cent., the expenditure of the federal
government had not increase mon than 4 per ant. (Hear,
hear.) But the right hon. gentleman pointed to the state
taxation of America. Let me refer him to the taxation of
the state of New York. The whole taxation of that ment—
he contribution to the general government and its state tax.
stints—does not amount to mare than lle. per head of its
population. Why your e: tan last year, exclusive of
your national debt sad Mailman, end Melvin only of your
arm), navy, sad ordnance, amounted to men than Ils. per
head of the population of the United Kingdom. You
cannot help these comparisons besag drawn, and I must say
they are meet unfortunate and unfavourable to the ia-
/Amiens of this country and to the management and
patriotism of the two houses of the legislature.
But, new, the whole of the state taxes. through-
out the United States, do not amount to more than
two millions per annum, and that, added to the four or five
millions of the general government taxation, amounts to an
insignificant sum as compared with the taxation of the people
of this country. (Hear.) But look at another mecum-
steam See how the seaboard of America has extended, and
see how little it his entailed of increase in their
naval expenditure. Besides, the American ementerce
has increased. Their ships are in your ports, and
is all the ports of the Mediterranean and the East;
but any Chancellor of the Exchequer in America would ex-
pect to be laughed at if he mated what our Chan alor of the
Exchequer uttered to-night, that then was a great field
opened in the East for the employment of our naval force.
Why, of course you have great fields if you will direct your
capains into those seas, but there is no American merchant
w ship, and freight, and crew are not se safe in any poet
of the world OS the ship, freight, and erew of any mer-
chant trading from this country. (Cheers) The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer did not give a very novel
reply to the arguments of my hon. friend. He
said that the expenditure of all those immense mune
by which we maintain our colonies enables as to obtain
eupplies of saw materials. But de we Pt say more wool
from Australia bemuse we have soldiers there ? (Hem,
hear.) Or, would we pt any more sotto& from the United
States, or any less, it we had not a fleet on that emit? Or,
would not moss flow to this ernmay from every part of the
globe, although we may not have ships abroad ? It
is • delusion. The right lesioarable gentleman
by one argument my hanourahle friend (Mr. Cobden)
mods use of, for he mid we cannot do without those
! forces if we maintain the macula, and if we are to keep
up • rotation citrons to India. But it Y a mastromi thing
that this country should mad eat themends of man to India
to keep them there, if they live, which they seldom de, for
26 years. Be bag as this army are anti eat of the taus of
the people of this country, se bag will yes have no sommity
that there will not be wars between the trine sad the
colonists, beanies it is of important to the earthen that
Inglish tamp should be there, add ZOOM MOW mattered
among the, When the present nemommt one of dens he-
nna men unmet and menbind, then the Cliamedise of
the Exchequer will reduce a, two, three, bur, Meyer even
the tan millions my hem friend (Mr. Cobden) sake W. It is
a pestles of preeenni, and he knew@ it well—no one
better. The farmers are now becoming in lamer of free
trade all over the soon , and they ask for a redaction
of taxation, sad partWarly of the malt tax, Ike they
have found eat that thesis • country like America, became
an comae from ter from the protectioniets)—and
they compare the of that sontry with their own.
ihe farmers are the eiranastanes that small
produce end inferior are passim them but kw
reelßut if gentlemen te represent them truly, it
their duty to prim upon government, with us, for
all practicable redaction, ia order that some diminution
may take place in the peewee enormous Meatiest, Irma
which the farmers as well "lip the manufacturers are
severally suffering.
. -

Mr. IMLUM3IOND argued the quadsa was a delu-
sion to the lumen if it was hissed as a steam of
relieving their burdens. We used avullus, a ph!
palatial' of 30,1)00,000, which tie &ailed Ye spoo,ooo
It
of hellish Of three one iessweied Ivo tine
meek as the others, another by tVeettrie Owe tin:,
another twice as Ea* asi of UM WM.a serial
wore in a utterable side et Old the ether
half in absolute stareatioa. Now. esseisded that this
beiag so, taxed= vault to be auk: to put upwards as did
the assessed tares; diet they ought ti phone the
entirely from any tax ea food, mad nubs the Isms elryst
imnil 40010! thou
pos, Lassen :1= eto the h 1 .s.

- iiirthiiiiiiiiiiiit 7B
Against it
T. hums then went into committee pro /mind, and im-
ediately moused, the Cgiumeat obtain* banto sit
spin os Friday.

BRUM OF DINS= (IILBWD) BILL.

TM lima went into ostansittos on this bill '
On es maim to U up the blank in ono o 1 Um clauses
with 80,0011,

Mr. HUMisaili he whited Oo repeat him pots. against
this sem "Mak as as east the grassestinjiWbos.
Ty vise to, dll• bill passed through 'oasis.
tee, ssi was Rio i to iss road a third tins ea Wedniplay.

IRISH POOR LAW.

Is sower to Kr. Swarozzo,
Lad J. RUSSELL said, that it was his iatostios
brig as the mottos founded on the resolution of the whet
amanitas, on Usk poor laws, kr the striking of a idepesay
Me Is elk on Tim:slay next, if net preemie' by thecae:
modem t in It la vim sot t►as Wu to Wag it es, ho
would the. aisle when be would do

TICS-GUARDIANS OP UNIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the seelles et Sir W. Sostiavain,
The boom wort hie sommittse • this bill.
After $ esneweiden, la whisk Kr. H 113111; Kr. C&11-
NUM MA let W.Scaustwu.Le took part,