The Express.
London, England, 1851-06-07 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 7, 1851.

IMPERIAL P.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—FSIDAY, Joxs 8.
The Loan Csancitz.Loa took his seat at flee o'clock.
PETITIONS PRBRIXTBD.
Sonosone.—By lard BBALUMONT, from
t►e Veterinary Wisp. and boa amine Ober veterinary
praying tolse vs no' Bea aeMmikee • juries.
Asanannait.—By Lod SONDES, fans Cam-
berwell ; end by the Duke of RICHMOND, hem Aber-
deen ; *wart papal
Fain Tuna.—ByMtifDlA, from Downbeat Mar-
; whist fres trade.
Aar isms or Jews.—By the Bishop of OXFORD,
from Bath ; against the admission of Jews to parliament.
LAW BEFOIIII. - - -

Lord CAMPBELL, la answer to a guides Rem lord
Blo[loll/.11, .:premed regret that tie oseamksimerre
appriatod to mho the ram et prectior and pheakto la the
made of amiss km,
_BA alt
_yet primaiod a report.
Beam amy attempt mead ha amide at hoprommorit, the
roper{ aline lamed pan= ought to bo totehed, and be
trailed ha prassatelita would aselo tarther &Wed.
COURTS OF 11200110111AMBRT. . .

Lord Bierlienighid Mao lab certain resolutions
the sabLect of Oseree et Rommsliensat.
LAW OF MARRIATI IN AUSTRALIA.
. .

Some esaversedsa took due w. tits pesseutation of
perdue the Dohs el AZOTLL, from
the state the made. law is Aufisabla
duke balk
_main& the aamideratiaa at whatnot
Bad =EY repliti that the =Maw we we with which
the asitaial lesielstwee was pediatly asupsteut to deal ;
and be had ao doubt the law would be esamidered and any
alteration made which was band to be ehehable.
. .

L;tdFAMPßlLLties;ghtii;epetitiiapresented by the
noble duke was mat meemeble, and he biped it would be
complied with. IPresbristle= in the aelrnw were in a
ituation of great maberreement, and wen subjected to
great injustice. Ye leave it to the colonial legislatures
to say what marriages should be valid and what marriages
invalid was the very way_to create confusion and injustice.
The Duke of ARGYLL then Fesentell a petition from
the synod of the united presbyterian church of Edinburgh,
complaining of the grievance of which he had spoken.

, Heiken, Ii reheemes te lbo report of the finance sem-
Miele if lie agawative semen at Coyle*, said that
the apse ire of esoddeestde kepeetease, and en-
deed ante late the details of all the depart-
ments of the adialaddiaties of the revenue of the
eekey. The dammed bed been brought under the
maim el Earl (hey, wise bad carefully considered all its
stategrede sad reammeadations, but inasmuch as a new
genesis" bad been for the colony, who would be
estrusted wills the of marrying out such of those re-
EarlaNkiiilli OS it be thought advisable to carry
win, It bedusll=stricat just to him and to the island,
shush& and the reasons for them should be
reamed* the to consider and report his opinion
nil 0111.. Ihr fil if the governor not having been
yet reseived, he Mr. Hants) wee not in a condition at pre-
rent .. El.. the mile lewd an answer as to what would be
does; bat when Ids Noble friend (Earl Grey) should have
resolved and emeddned the governor's reply, no doubt all
the papas weshl. as a leaner of course, be laid before par-
ADJOURNMENT FOR THE HOLIDAYS.—BUSI-
NESS OF THE HOUSE.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in rising to move the adjournment
of the house for the Whitsuntide recess, said it might be
convenient to hon. members if he stated the course in which
the government proposed to take the public business.
(Hear.) On 'f huriday next, when the house again met, it
was the intention to take the committee of supply as the
ant order of the day, and in committee to consider the remain-
ing parts of the navy estimates, after which his right hon.
friend (Sir F. Baring) would make his statement as to the
regulation for the retirement of admirals, and after the
naval estimates it was proposed to take a vote for the ex-
penses of the Kaffir war, and then to go on with the civil
contingencies. The miscellaneous estimates it was also pro-
posed to take on Thursday and the following day, Friday.
He had stated the other day that he proposed proceeding
with the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill on the Monday after the
holidays, but in order to give more time to those hon. gentle-
men who represented Irish constituencies, he now proposed to
take the second reading of the Customs Bill on that day,
and the committee on the Window Tax Repeal Bill, and
the remaining miscellaneous estimates after those two bills,
and not to resume the consideration of the Ecclesiastical
Titles Bill till the Friday following—viz., that day fort-
night. (Hear, hear.) He would now move that the house,
at its rising, do adjourn to Thursday next.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Mr. EWART, pursuant to notice, asked the First Lord
of the Treasury whether her Majesty's government were
willing to cause to be made, through a minister of the
crown, on going into the education estimates, a statement
of the condition and progress of education, so far as Ammo
under the administration of the government and within the
supplies voted by parliament; including national institu-
tions connected with art or science, training schools, schools
of design, public libraries, and similar institutions, mop
formably with the promise made by the late Sir Reheat
Peel during his administration ?
Lord J. RUSSELL had no knowledge of any reef pre-
mise having been made by the late Sir R. Peel, and oar-
taittly no such statement had been made while that rfabf
hon. baronet was at the head of the government. He had
previously understood that all his boa. friend (Mr. Ewan)
wanted was an explanation as to the general disposal mad
arrangement of the education vote, and that had been
given in each of the last two years by his right hon. friend
the Home Secretary, as be (Lord J. Russell) had thought,
in conformity with his hon. friend's wish. He would con-
sider whether any further statement could be made with
regard to the schools of design, or any other matter in re-
spect to which it was proposed to ask for a distinct vote
in the estimates, but he thought it would be inexpedient
to make any general statement on education beyond those
particular objects for which a vote of public money was
asked. With regard, however, to any progress that bad
been made in the last year in regard to these school', he
would endeavour to meet his hon. friend's wishes as gar as
possible. He hoped this answer would be considered oath-
factory. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME perfectly well remembered the late Sir R.
Peel saying that whenever any grant on this subject wa
made, it would be the duty of the public department to
make a report similar to that which was made annually in
regard to the British Museum ; and he (Mr. Hume) knew
of nothing more important than that they should have a
statement made each year of the progress which had been
made by means of the previous year's vote.
Mr. CARDWELL had a perfect recollection of the oc-
currence to which the hon. member alluded, and which
took place in a debate on the miscellaneous estimates in the
year 1846, and his impression entirely coincided with that
of his hon. friend the member for Dumfries.
After a few words from Mr. LATloliciLticE,
Mr. MOWATT said that what was wanted was,
not a mere dry official report, which might escape the at-
tention of hundreds, but that the minister of the crown
should state to the house what had been done and what was
contemplated for the future.
THE BIRMINGHAM CONVENT.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, in reference to:a statement made
some time ago by the hon. member for North Warwickshire
(Mr. Spooner) that a convent had been erected in Birming-
ham, with cells under ground, supposed to be for the con-
finement of the inmates, observed that such statement had
occesioned a great deal of odium as against the ltoman
anabolic inhabitants of the borough, to whom the hon.
.caber always showed much hostility, who had called
apes the mayor in coasequence to inspect the building and
r: . result of his inspection to the Home-office. Ile
. ileholefield) understood that he had done so, and had
his opinion to be that there was no truth in the
statestent put forward by the hon. member, nor even the
shadow of a foundation for it. Under these circumstances
he had given notice of a question to the right hon. the
Hoene Secretary, which be now begged to put—Whether
the right hon. bart. had reasived arty communication from
the mayor of Binniagluma Native te the erection, now in
progress, of a hew
_esavuet within dot borough ?
Sir G. GB= DM seethed no eimesheOlen, either
private or Adel, hem the Mayer of Ilbsdesbent or mg
other quarter, tive Maw anstlen mil* be are la pee-
gress of a courvest in tem. . Mir.)
Mr. SPOONER tliso sny hostility foes Imes SIP
thrills; individually, though he felt the pealed bra* te
the Roman catholic lia. It was true what he mid in the
house on a former ao might lead to the samlsmion that
the cells were being built gar the purpose of ceasing Ma
of the inmates as might 61l ender the displease's, of the
superior ; but he had the nee emegenve newer to the
assertion that then was st, headed= for that statement
from Dr. Newman, who stated himself, in a letter addressed
to the Morning Chronicle two days after the discussion in
which he (Mr. Spooner) had made the statement referred to
in the house, that there were underground cells, which had
been devised to economise room, and were intended for those
offices commonly attached to a large house. Here there was
at least some foundation for what he (Mr. Spooner) had said.
(" Hear," and laughter.) And he further said that one was
to be • coal-hole—(a laugh)—and another a place for beer,
sad perhaps for wine—(laughter)—and that a third might
be occupied by the inmates. Here, then, according to the
Father's own confession, there were to be baking, and
brewing, and washing, all underground. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOORE, amid loud cries of " Oh, oh," begged to
be permitted to add one word. The hon. gentleman (Mr.
Spooner) ought to be thanked for having on the present
occasion exposed his absurdity, for it would be impossible to
make that hon. member more ridiculous than he had made
himself. (Loud cries of " Oh, oh.") Did he not, in his
original statement, mean to insinuate that these under-
ground cells were constructed for unworthy purposes?
And did he not thereby cast an unworthy stigma on the
establishment? (Hear, hear.)
GOVERNMENT OF VENEZUELA.
Mr. DISRAELI gave notice that he would, on that day
week, present a petition from Mr. Ward, relative to certain
alleged injuries he received from the government if Vene-
zuela.

TRANSATLANTIC PACKET-STATION.
Mr. H. HERBERT complained that a year had elapsed
since the appointment of a commission to inquire with re-
spect to the future transatlantic packet-station, and that no
report from them had hitherto been received.
laud J. RUSSELL said he would take an early oppor-
tunity of asking his hon. friend, the member for Hertford
(Mr. Cowper), the cause of the delay.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
It was then agreed that the house at its rising should ad-
journ to Thursday next.
THE KAFFIR WAR.
MrADDERLEY expressed a hope that, as there were
many mew of motion on the paper for Thursday next, the
noble rote loethronld postpone the for the Keffir war until
the fo
U Lord J. mil that if the other business should HL
extend to a Bowen Thursday he would not propose the
vote for the Kaffir war on that night.
Mr. HUME said that if no further information from the
Cape of Good Hope had been received by the government
since the date of the former despatches, he would consent
to postpone the following motion of which he had given
notice :—" For copies of the lot despatches from the
government of the Cape of Good Hope, ia continuation of
the papers already before the house, to show the state of
the war by the last accounts, and the measures taken to
terminate the same, with the view of having these
despatches in the hands of members before the vote of
300,0001. is taken on the 13th of June for carrying on the
war." And, Copies, or extracts of the correspondence be-
tween Mr. Fairborn and Sir A. Rockingham, deputies from
the inhabitants of the Cape of Good Hope, with Earl Grey,
the Secretary for the Colonies, with regard to the respon-
sible government promised to that colony."
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to furnish
the hon. member with extracts from the further infor-
mation which had been received.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. HUME postponed his motion for parliamentary re-
form until the Ist or July.
RELIEF OF THE POOR.
Mr. L. KING moved fora return showing the amount of
property assessed to the relief of the poor in each county,
and division of a county, and in each of the boroughs and
cities, returning members to parliament in England and
Wales, for the year ending on the 30th day of March,
1860.
Agreed to.
In reply to Mr. Ewer,
Ur. WILSON said that the returns respecting India were
in a wry advanced state of preparation, and that they'
might be expected to be laid on the table in the course of
ten days.
THE DIAYNOOTH GRANT.
In reply to Mr. Brooxu,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would take re that that
part et the miseellaseoss estimates whichC2lstelatted the

t to Mayan* *Amp iusM ail
next
INCOME AND nOPERTY TAX COMMITTEE.
Mr. HUME said be should have been content with
simply moving that the name of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer be added to this committee if it were not that he
understood the right hon. gentleman was going to move
the adjournment of the debate. It was usual fur those who
Roved committees to make the best arrangement they
could, and to obtain the fittest men to serve upon them.
The ambers, howevcr,who were originally selected to be on
the immense and property tax committee had, some of them,
Wised to serve. The had led to several changes, so much
so that he had been obliged to intimate at the last meeting
that the alines of those willing to serve should be put dowa
11l leper. He was convinced that the house must adopt
asses new mode of naming committees on public business.
Twenty years ago he had proposed that, on the meeting of
parliament, the Speaker should take upon himself to name
a certain number of committees, to whom the ques-
tions with which they wore best acquainted should
be referred, thereby putting an end to all die-
pute. This had been • long-established practice
in the United States of America, and it had been found to
work admirably well. There were, for instance, the mili-
tary, the legal and the commercial committees, and to these,
respectively, military, legal, and commercial matters were
referred. In all nine different committees were selected by
the Speaker at Washington, and thus the objectionable eye.
tem of packing was prevented. But, here, one person after
another backed out. He had named four on this committee ;
the hon. member for Buckinghamshire had named four more,
and then it was discovered that none of those belonging
to the Peclite division of the house were inclined to
serve. (" Hear," and laughter.) He knew not why a
member should be compelled to sit on a private committee,
and why he should be at liberty to refuse to sit on a_public
committee. (Hear, bear.) The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had handed in four names—his own, Mr. Labsu-
chore's, Lord Harry Vane's and Colonel Romilly's ; but
now it appeared that the noble lord at the head of the go-
vernment was very anxious to withdraw the name of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. (" Hear, hear," and
laughter.) It was desirable that the public credi-
tor should receive some protection on the committee
from • member of the government, and therefore it was
very desirable that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should
be elected on it. He had substituted the name of Mr. Vil-
liers for that of Mr. Labouchere, and he had allowed the
name of Col. Homily to stand. Leaving the house to de-
cide for itself, he had now to propose that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer be elected a member of the committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the difficulties which had arisen in the nomination of this
committee had been very fairly stated by the hon. member
for Montrose, but there was no reason to complain of the
ordinary mode in which the nomination of committees
worked in that house. His hon. friend (Mr. Hume) had only
allowed him to nominate three members out of the whole Is.
It was perfectly impossible for him (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) to attend the committee very diligently, and,
therefore, if he was to be a member of it, he could .not do
his duty to the public creditor unless he had on it
an adequate number of persons on whose assistance
and support he could depend. (Hear, hear.) As
the proposition now stood, there was to be only one per-
son of adequate financial experience, and he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) was to be supported by only two hon.
gentlemen on whom he could rely. lie believed it would
not be for the benefit of the public to place a Chancellor of
the Exchequer in that position. As the committee was now
named, there were eight hon. gentlemen upon it who, by
their speeches and votes in the house, had declared them-
selves in favour of modifications which he believed to be
unjust and unfair; and he Sound that altogether there was
an unfair preponderance of opinion is the committee against
the landed interest, which might be said to pay one-half of
the Meow) tax. (Hear, hear.) The committee at least
ought to be fairly representative of all interests and
parties and opinions in the house. (Hear, hear.)
The house had already declared its decision by 2
to 1 against suet modifications. The committee, therefore,
could not be said to represent tho house. (Hear, hear.)
He thought that it was no unreasonable request
that he should be permitted to recommend five names
for the committee. (Hear, hear.) Under these circum-
stances, and string that it was impossible to appoint the
committee that evening, he would suggest to the hon.
gentleman an adjournment of the question. The proposal
of the government was a perfectly fair proposal ; and if
other parties, and leaders of parties, in the house would Te-
pid tie matter in the same light, then they might, if not
make the committee useful, at least endeavour to make it
useful. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DEEDES having moved that the debate be ad-
journed,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he should be obliged to any
gentleman to point out a single beneficial result front the
inquiries of all the committees that the house had of late
years appointed. (Laughter.) lie thought :the system
should be entirely changed, as the present ono served no
good purpose.
Mr. W. MILES thought a committee so constituted in-
capable of producing any report that would be satisfactory,
or tend to the correction of the inequality, injustice, and
frauds of the income tax.

before Fri-

The subject was followed up by some remarks from Mr.
Roche, Mr. Mowatt, Sir 3. Walsh, Mr. H. Willie, Lord
Grosvenor, and Sir H. Willoughby.
Mr. HUME, in replying, offered that, four names being
reserved for his own nomination, the Chancellor of the Ea-
chequer should have a carte blanche as to the reit.
Lord J. RUSSELL submitted that nothing could be done
at the moment, and the best course would be to consent to
an adjournment of the debate.

After some further discussion this proposition was
adopted, and the resumption of the debate fixed for Friday
next.

BORNEO.

Mr. numE asked if the noble lord was prepared to
place him in the same position in which he had stood in
respect of this motion, so that he might have a fair oppor-
tunity of stating the case.
Lord J. RUSSELL would endeavour to meet the wishes
of his hon. friend. He would take this opportunity of
saying, that in the earlier port of the evening he had sated
that the subject of the Kaffir war would be taken on Thurs-
day, but he had since found that it could not conveniently I
be entertained on that day, and therefore they would not
bring it forward until Friday.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL
The house resolved itself into committee on this bill.
On clause 2 with the amendment being put from the
chair,
Mr. REYNOLDS rose to move that the words, " Under
any designation whatsoever," be omitted from the clause.
His object in this was to carry out, as far as he had power,
the declaration made by the l'rime Minister, and by the
law authorities of the crown, that the intention of this bill
was that persons of the catholic religion should be left in
the same position as they were left as regarded religious
rights by the act of 1829. He could not find the words he
proposed to omit in that act, and he asked the noble lord
how he could justify the retention of them in this bill con-
sistently with the declarations he had made over and over
again; for it was clear, if those words were retained,
that the catholic archbishops and bishops, and the
catholic people in Ireland, would not be in the same
position as they were at the passing of the act of 1829.
The grounds laid down by the government for this
violation of the principle of religious liberty were, that the
Pope bad—but not by temporal authority—appointed
certain vicars apostolic to be bishops in certain districts in
England, and it was considered an aggravation of the of-
fence that a cardinal had been introduced into England.
They might depend upon it, that the catholic church was
above the power of human legislation. She had existed
before the House of Commons had been heard of, and had
withstood all the persecutions which had been brought to
bear against her. No matter what laws they passed, they
might rest assured that they could not detract from its
strength. They had persecuted the protestant dissenters
as they had persecuted the Roman catholic', and what had
been the result? The protestants in communion with the
church of England did not exceed ten millions, and the
dissenters boasted that they had • majority over that
number. What, too, was the state of matters in regard
to Ireland ? In the reigns of Queen Elisabeth and James I.
the protestants of that country had been declared to be a
majority, whilst in the year 1841 the proportion had been
seven millions of catholics to seven hundred and fifty
thousand Protestants. This diminution had taken place,
although they had nurtured the protestants in Ireland, as
they did their exotics, in a hotbed. (Laughter.) They had
killed them with kindness. Every interest in Ireland had
been sacrificed to that of the protestant church, and yet, to
use a remarkable phrase, they had " grown smaller by de-
grees, and beautifully less." (Laughter.) lie saw the
hon. and learned member for Abingdon in his place. That
hon. and learned gentleman might yet be an official legal
dignitary. More unlikely things had come to pass. Well,
he would ask that hon. and learned gentleman what he
would do with an act of this kind ? Would he put it in
force ? Would he be prepared to dignify his official reign
(if he might so speak), by sounding the tocsin of religious
dismrd in England and Ireland ? Was he prepared to let
loose the dogs of war on men who exercised the religion
which they conscientiously professed ? The hon. and
learned member for Enniskillen might also some day
fill an official position. What would he do ? He
(Mr. Whiteside) had had some experience in state
prosecutions, and the late Daniel O'Connell had declared to
him (Mr. Reynolds) that no language was sufficiently
strong for him to express his admiration of the advocacy of
the learned gentleman. Well would he (Mr. Whiteside)
adopt the course of persecuting the Roman esthetics ? Was
any one of them prepared to say that, with this act passed,
they were prepared to arrest a catholic bishop, dean, or
priest ? lie believed that if the question were put to any
of them on or behind the Treasury benches, or on either
side of the house, they would lay their hands on their
breasts, and declare solemnly that they would not put a
hand on the Lord's anointed chiefs of the people of Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) He was not inclined to advise any
one to violate the laws of his country, but really he
thought that resistance to such a law r this would be • vir-
tue. It was a law which would net be Nerved by the people
of Ireland. (Hear, bear.) estriamg this jus,
and supposing that the four at klidiegi and die 34
in Ireland disobeyed it ; then ramessed IS slate Nide;
then if they bad not the raw isatedal of discoed and dis-
union he did not know how it could paddy be fernidted.
An aggregate meeting would be held in Dublin, mad ea
address would be voted to her Majesty to peeteether Damn
catholic subjects from this Algerian statue, (aw, beer.)
He (Hr. Reynolds) wee informed that Hog were to
have as interregnum with regard to the Maas Magee of
this bill. The noble lord had that night eameaseed that he
would not proceed farther with it ha a ketaigitt. During

the last recess he (Yr. Reynolds) had gone over to Dublin,
where he found catholic arguing with protestant, and public
feeling at a high state of excitement upon this subject. And
what had caused this? The Durham letter and the papal
aggression bill. An aggregate meeting of the catholic.' of
d had been held, where they had been unanimous in
pawing au unmitigated vote of censure on the government
and on this bill. They had also been unanimous in ano-
ther matter—in calling on all their representatives to vote
against the bill and to vote against the government on every
occasion on which their existence as a ministry was at stake.
He and some other Irish representatives had obeyed these
orders, although a few of his countrymen had nut. Now
they were to have another recess. And what would be
done during it ? lie would tell them. A requisition was
in course of signature for another aggregate meeting in
Dublin. That requisition would be signed by all the
catholic peers, archbishops, bishops, and other influential
persons. At that meeting this bill and its authors
would be arraigned, and a catholic defence associa-
tion would be formed, which without encroaching on the
religious rights of others would adopt every possible means
to defend and enlarge its own. Well, this Catholic Defence
Association would not be one of their squeaking penny whistle
associations whose voice was not to be respected—it would
be the aggregate voice of the Roman catholics of the United
H. om. (Hear, hear.) They would form one great
combination against the encroachments which were at-
tempted on their religions freedom—they would not consent
to the enslavement of their religion in the land of their
birth. (Hear, hear.) A general election, too, was
not far distant, and when an appeal was made
to the people, there was not a single man in Ireland friendly
to religious liberty who would not use his influence in pre-
venting the return of those members who had deserted the
peoples cause. The votes of hon. members would be taken
to the hustings, and the people would know how to act.
Men would be returned who would not only vote for the
repeal of the bill, but vote always against its authors.
He had commenced by moving that certain words be
omitted from this clause. These words occurred is the
thirtieth line, and were—" under any designation or
description whatsoever." lie concluded by reputing what
he said at the commencement, that these words were not
to be found in the 21th section of the Emancipation Act,
and that if they passed the clause as it was, they placed
the people of Ireland in a worse position than the act of
1829 placed them in.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it did not seem to him that ho
need follow the hon. gentleman in all his observations.
With regard to the question now before the house,
and which merely related to a part of the clause under dis-
cussion, the committee would recollect that this was a
clause that was intended to prevent the assumption of the
titles of Archbishop of Westminster, Bishop of Birming-
ham, Bishop of Clifton, and so on, and it did certainly so
Ass go beyond the clause in the Relief Act, but they
tboaght that although it went beyond it in the letter, it
was quite in conformity with the spirit of that act ; and
that as a matter of national policy no power ought to
be permitted to give a territorial title to • prelate
whether it was in accordance with the title of an existing
bishopric or nor. That wag the simple question, and the
=ntleman, as he had said over and over again, was
n in supposing that in endeavouring to defend them-
selves from this aggression they did anything that would
very much tend to change the state of matters in Ireland ;
but if it was not lawful to take the title of Archbishop of
Armagh, he did not see why another archbishop should
take the title of Archbishop of Tuain, and although there
was no position hardly so agreeable as that of a modern
martyr, he must say that if Dr. M'llale chose to incur the
penalty of this bill he must be allowed to do so. Now,
with regard to these words the hon. gentleman was quite
correct in saying that the words " under any designation or
description whatsoever," were not in the Emancipation Act,
but then the Emancipation Act pointed to taking a particular
title such as that of Archbishop of Dublin or Archbishop of
Armagh. What they proposed was to prohibit not merely
taking the exact title, but the taking any title which in
smrit was the assumption of a territorial title. In so
doing it was desirable that there should be no evasion of
this clause, and that whatever might be the designation of
the title a territorial title should not be taken. That was
really the whole meaning and effect of these words, and
therefore he should not consent to their being left out.
After a few words from Mr. E. Recite, who thought
the noble lord should accede to the proposal,
Mr. WHITESIDE, having replied to some of tho
observations of the honourable member for Dublin,
said he should like to hear him prove how it was pos-
sible to maintain that the Polo could create an arch-
bishop of Dublin with a right of succession to his successor
unless he had the power to create a corporation within this
realm. When the bill passed, in the 33rd of George 111.,
for the establishment of the college of Maynooth, the man-
agement of it was vested in the Roman catholic bishops as
trustees, bat they were not designated bishops, but Doctor so
and so; and did they refuse to accept the trust so conferred
upon them ? No such thing. The only complaint that
was made was in a remarkable petition, presented by Mr.
' Grattan from catholics in Ireland, praying that the pro-
' posed colleges might not be for catholics alone, but for pro-
testants also, as they apprehended ill effects from the sepa-
rate education of catholic* and protestants. His hon. and
learned friend had quoted cases of equity in which the
authority of the Roman catholic bishops had been ques-
tioned. Ile (Mr. Whiteside) would quote a case or two at
common law. There were several instances in Ireland of
Roman catholic laymen against Roman catholic bishops
fur excommunicating them. In one of these, an action
brought evilest the Rev. Peter APLoch, the court held
that a Roman catholic bishop had not a right to punish
any of his parishioners by sentence of excommunication;
that that was an assumption of power contrary to the law,
and a usurpation of the rights of the bishops of the esta-
blished church. In another action brought against Dr.
M`Mahon (as we understood), the bishop pleaded not that
he was bishop of a district but that he was bishop of the
Roman catholic church, in which the judges said neither
the discipline of the church of Rome nor the canon law
were of any value in this country. There were severs!
other cases, and in all of them considerable damages were
awarded. Ile could not admit with the hon. gentleman for
Dublin that he was attacking the liberties of Ireland in
supporting
this bill.
r. MONSELL contended that there was a fallacy in
the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman who had just
sat down. The catholics did not ask them to recognise
their archbishops and bishops ; all they asked them to do
was not to prevent them from recognising them themselves.
The attempt to show that bulls, relating merely to the
spiritualities, had been prohibited in Roman catholic times,
had signally failed; but he (Mr. Monsell) was afraid that
a large majority of the house were determined to listen
neither to reason nor to argument. Deeply did he deplore
the consequences that would result. They would alienate
the affections of a third of the subjects of the Queen,
and in the end they would, after a long and disastrous
struggle, be compelled ignominiously to retrace their steps.
(Loud cheers.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL repudiated the idea of the Roman
catholic members taking counsel of the hon. and learned
member (Mr. Whiteside) as to what would be best for them.
The Roman catholic of Ireland had certainly not,
as they had been charged with doing, broken any
of the conditions of the Emancipation Act. There
had, at all events, been no cardinal appointed in Ireland,
and why, then, should that country be included in the
bill? After • careful study of the statutes of prerinunire,
he was convinced that they had nothing whatever to do
with (the spiritual authority of the Pope. Let them
not forget the new Ireland that was rising on the
shores of America, and endanger our friendly relations
with the vast country across the Atlantic by their oppres-
sion of the sister isle. Above all, let not England,
when she had summoned a world to admire her boundless
resources, her almost fabulous magnificence, and the
gigantic progress which she had made in the arts, in the
science*, and in the attributes of civilised life—let her not,
ho said, hold up to its astonished indignation one of the
worst precedents of the darkest, most persecuting, and the
most barbarous ages. (Cheers.)
The committee then divided.

For the amendment 3B
Against it
Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose to move an amendment ex-
empting Ireland from the operation of the bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that it would be better to
move it as a separate clause.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought it better to have the amend-
ment before the house at once.

Mr. KEOGH was in favour of the amendment being
postponed, and
Mr. CRAW FORD acquiesced in this course.
Sir IL WILLOUGHBY then moved to insert after the
words "united church," the words " or if any person
shall hereafter obtain or cause to be procured from the said
Bishop or See of Rome, or shall publish or put in use
within any part of the United Kingdom, any bull, brief,
rescript, letters apostolicsd, or any other instrument or
writing for the purpose of constituting an hierarchy of
bishops, named front sees, and with titles derived from
places belonging to the crown of the United Kingdom."
He considered that the real aggression consisted in the
introduction of these bulls. His amendment was very much
to the effect of that which had been proposed by the hon.
and learned member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole) and after-
wards withdrawn ; and he now took this method of raising
the question.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he wished to recall to the recol-
lection of the committee what had occurred on that subject.
The hon. and learned member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole)
had, after much consideration, placed on the notice-book,
before the Easter recess, an amendment in words similar to
those now proposed. Nobody could doubt either the learn-
ing or the ability of the hon. and learned gentleman, and
that if such clauses were to be proposed, they were fitly
placed in his hands, and would come from him with all the
advantage that could be desired. But that hon. and
learned gentleman, before proposing them to the house,
had seen such difficulties in proposing these clauses for
Ireland, that he had confined them to this part of the
United Kingdom. When he proposed the clause in that
shape, it had excited a great deal of opposition from various
quarters. In the first place, the Attorney-General had
objected to the clause as creating an additional offence end
another specific penalty, urging that thereby the measure
would be carried beyond its original intention,and beyond the
spirit of the act of 10 Geo. IV. (the Ronan Catholic Eman-
eipation Act),frout which it was proposed to take this clause.
The clause had been opposed by Sir It. Inglis, and other
bon. members, on the ground that it was not desirable to
introduce any distinction between England and Ireland in
this respect; and the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr.
Walpole) on heaving the various objections that were urged,
had consented to give up the clause. After this, it would
be better that the committee should not again be 'shed to
agree to those words. He (Lord John Russell) felt yorr