The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-10 00:00:00

Mr. FREWEN hoped the bill would be allowed to paw
is its present shape.
On clause 6,
Mr. MONSELL suggested that the number of conserva-
tors to be appointed should be increased from 7 to 15,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE consented to alter the number
to nine ; and the clause, as amended, was agreed to.
On clause 6.
Mr. ANSTEY moved an amendment for restricting the
right of voting.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE hoped the bon. gentleman
being would a
not press his amendment to a division, as, there not
house, the bill would be lost.
After a conversation the amendment was withdrawn, to
be moved on the bringing up of the report.
Sir D. NORREYS suggested that where there were joint
occupiers of a ti.hery, the right of voting should be confined
to one individual.
This suggestion was adopted, and the clause, as amended,
was agreed to.
The remaining clauses were agreed to amid very consider-
able confusion, Mr. Asada and several other members
sometimes talking across the table all at once, whilst the
Chairman was putting verbal amendments. The confusion
amid which the claws were carried, m consequence of the
anxiety of the house to adjourn, whilst Mr. ANS
oIIyTEY wan
reed
anxious to go on, rendered the proceedinga wh incom-
prehen•ible. At length the bill was ordered to be repo
tomorrow.
The scl
SPEAKER vacated the chair at half-past 3, to resume
at a quarter put o'•fck.
The house resumed at a quarter past 5.
CUSTOMS REGULATIONS.
Lord G. 13ENTINCli moved that the petition of the nn-
ders4tned shipowners, manufacturers, merchants, traders,
and other inhabitants of the port of Shields (presented Bth
Auust), b e printed with the votescomplained that
Newgcastle had been favoured at the expense of the peti-
tioners' port.
Mr. TIIORNELY said that the committee of petitions
bad already st nt the petition in question to press, and it
would be in the hands of members in a day or two.
Mr. Reel and Mr. LABOUCIIEBE united in stating that
no partiality had been shown to Newcastle.
The motion was then withdrawn.
COUNTY COURTS FEES.
Sir G. GREY stated, in answer to Dr. BowRINO, that an
order in council for paying the judges of the county courts a
fixed salary. instead of their being paid by fee, had been
prepared; and that an inquiry into the system of fees, with
a view to their reduction, was now going on.
BALLOT.

Mr. H BERKELEY gave notice that on an early day
next ses...lat he should move for leave to bring in a bill to
cause the votes of electors of nimbus of that house to be
taken by ballot.
TRINIDAD AND JAMAICA.
Mr. HAVES, in answer to Mr. BAILLIE, stated that •
deepatch from Sir C. Grey, the governor of Jamaica, had
been receivcd,stating that some excitement had been created
amongst the black population there lest the island should
be transferred to America, and their liberties thereby be
affected. From Ltd Harris a despatch bad also been ye-
ceived, but nothing in it r..lated to any excitement amongst
the inhabitants of 'Trinidad. He was not prepared to say
whether these deepatches would be laid on the table of the
house, as he had not spoken with the noble earl the Colonial
Secretary on the subject.
MEDITERRANEAN FLEET.
Mr. URQUHART asked the noble lord (J. Russell)
whether, in case of any collision between the subjects of the
Kira of Naples in the Mediterranean, the British fleet
stationed there had orders to act against one or the other

party ?
Lord J. RUSSELL declined to answer the question of
the hon. member.
IRELAND.—REPEAL.
Mr. GROGAN ro.e to ask a question of the Secretary
for Ireland relative to a correspondence between Mr. J.
Loughran and Mr. Redington, and, otter stating some eke
curastances re Wive to the refusal of the authorities in that
country to suffer Mr. Loughran to act as a special constable,
asked Sir W. Somerville whether he was prepared to lay
the correspondence in question on the table of the house ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he was not officially
informed of the existence of the correspondence in question.
and, Coarquently, could not promise to lay it on the table.
Mr. GROGAN asked the noble lord a question relative to
the proceedings in Ireland for effecting a repeal of the
union.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that any association for the pur-
pose of effecting a separation of the two countries would un-
doubtedly be illegal. But if such association was for the
purpose of petitioning parliament to effect a repeal of the
union, he was of opinion that, as the house had already
received many such petitions, there was nothing illegal in it.
INSURRECTION AT ST. CROIX.
Mr. HAWES, in answer to Mr. Harr, stated that he
bad received no information respecting the insurrection of '
the nee,rces at St. Croix.
SEPARATE IMPRISONMENTS.
Sir G. GREY, in answer to Lord NUGENT, styled that it I
was not the intention of the government to introduce any
bill for altering the present gaol system as regarded the
separation of poisoners.
Lord NUGEN I' then gave notice that, early next session,
he should move for leave to bring in a hiil for modifying the I
present system of imprisoning persons before trial in separate
cells.
CONVICT REWARDS.
Sir G. GREY, in reply, to Mr. Howe, said that notwith-
standing some difficulties in creating a system of rewarOs for
co evicts who had merited that treatment, Capt. alaconochie,
the Governor of Norfolk Hand, was endeavouring to frame
a series of regulations far that purpose.
SUPPLY.
The house then went into committee of supply.
Tne stem of 122,8001. was voted for the disembodied
militia (Ireland.)
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. WARD, in rising to bring forward the navy estimates,
said that the report of the committee was now in members'
hands, and notwithstanding the slur cast upon it by the hon.
and gallant admiral opposite, before he had even seen it, he
(Mr. Ward) was prepared to assert that there never was a
parliamentary paps r prepared with so much research, in
dustry and moderation, as that drawn up by the noble lord
(Seymour) the chairman of tl,at committee. In bringing
the navy estimates before the committee he should
not pursue the usual course, but he should take
the report in his hand, and state wherein the
Board of Admiralty agreed with its suggestions—wherein
their lordships differed from them—and in what respect they
considered their recommendations admitted of modification.
The house had, already bound itself by a very large majority
to pre-vide for the first and second votes in the estimates, and
the sum of 400,0001. had been taken on account of the other
votes. His right bon. friend had already informed the house
that a reduction of 200,0001 had been effected in the votes
originally props el. which reelection spread over the votes
numb. red 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, and. 19. The total re
duction effected would in tact he 208,0001., and as the esti-
mates of 1848.9 exceeded those of last year by 214,0001.,
there consequently would be only an excess of 6.4401. in
the present estimates over those of 1847-8 when the
208.000/. was deducted, and if the net estimates of this y. ar
were compared with the gross estimates of last year, they
would be found to be 43,000'. less in amount than those for
1847-8. With respe ct to the amount of our caval force, that
was a question of which it was impossible to over-estimate
the importance. The committee had reported that that was
a questtou which could only be regulated by the wants, the
exigency, the mate of foreign relations, and other circum -
stances connected with the long-established awl extensive
dominions of the British empire. (Hear, hear.) The Ad•
miralty fully concurred in that opinion, ant', also as to the
difficulty of reducing the force of foreign stations after it bad
once been sent there. Consuls in distant ports were con-
smut'', calling for protection, and were mint reluctant to
permit the withdrawal et a ship of war if once it
bad been placed at their disposal. Three principal stations
had heen under consido ration before the committoe. The
Pacifis, the East India and Chinese, and the Cape. Now,
on all these stations there had hem considerable diminution.
On the East India and Chinese station the force, in 1845, woo
vessels, but of these, 9 had sine, been orde red home. On
the et. Pic station, the torte was, in 1845, 14 vessels • In
1847, 16 ; nod, in the present yell, they had been reduced
to 12. Of that number, seven only were serving at the pre.
sent moment. At the Cape, instead of 11 vessels in 1847,
there had been only 10 at the beginning of 1848, while at
present there were only 7, the Devastation and two :other
yew Is being on their way home. He was, however, in- I
structed to nay, on the part of the Admiralty, that there
would be no objection to the adoption of the committee's re-
commendation of a general revision of the naval stations pre-
vino% to the proposal of the estimates next year. He came
next to the votes 1 and 2, into both of which the committ
had entered at considersble length. As to the first
vote for wages of seamen the committee recommended that the
true hsu nin estimating th se wages to.oulel he restored. He
had stated in 1846 and 1847 why that basis had been changed,
and here the average, which had been taken for four or five
years, had been found insufficient in consequence of the
general introduction of steam-vessels into the navy. He
quite agreed with the committee that it would be desirable to
restore the true basis of ascertaining the number of ships in
commiltion on the Ist of January in each year, and their
complement of men, and applying that to the vote of the
coming year as a means of arriving at a sound conclusion.
The committee complaintd that under the present system,
when a vote was taken to pay a certain number of men, it
frequently went to pay men who had been entered two or
three years previ' Italy, and that consequently when ships
came to be paid off, the expense was increased rather than
diminished. The c .mmittee hence concluded that the
mode of voting for men under number one, was the
cause of great irregularity. The proposition was undeniable ;
but the tact was, that when excess once had arisen it was ex-
tremely difficult to get it down. (Hear.) Ships once put into
commission had perhaps to be recalled from the most distant
parts of the world, and this, with other disturbing causes,
rendered reduction always a matter of difficulty. He could
give no better proof of this then by stating the manner in
which the recess complained of by the committee had
arisen. When the present board came into office in July,
1846, they found an excess of men in the ships in commission
amounting to 3,2b9 ; that was the excess bequeathed to them
by their predecessors. Since then, in ems, quence of the
famine in Ireland, they had been obliged to commission &num-
ber of vessels for the Irish service independent of the ordinary
service. The amount required for that service was 7,380 men'
Making a total excess of more than 4,000 men in the year 1817.
The re. ult of this was that the number of men obliged to be
paid ofl in 1847.48 was unusually large, being 16,539 against
8,289, the average of precedirg years. In the first quarter
of the present year ending April 5, they bad
paid off 4,378 men against '2,871, the number for
the corresponding quarter of the preceding year.
There still remained in March, 1848, an excess of 4,146 men
over the number voted in the previous July • but in August
the fact as had been reduced to 2,477 ; and at the present

moment the Southampton was being paid off, sad Ober
ships were coming home, so that ultimately the excel, would
be reduced to 488 men. Still this process errs alow and Un-
satisfactory. The dune proposed by the oornmiMe as
remedy for the evil was perfectly legitimate—nullify, that ;
the monthly exam should be registered and reported to per•
fitment when applying for the estimates of the ensufagyeera
lie thought it would be a salutary cheek fl the number of
men actually borne on the books were regularly contrasted
with the number for which estimates had been taken.
(Hear, hear.) These observations applied to vote number ogee,
and with respect to both votes, it was the intention
of the Admiralty to comply with the suggestion of the coos-
mittee, by presenting a statement along with the
estimates next year. There was one more subject
connected with vote number one, to which It would be
necessary to allude ; he meant the supplementary grant of
30,fki01. for good service reerseas. On this the committee
had expressed no decide° opiolon,and he should only remind
the house of the many ,liscussions which had occupied the
house in reference to this matter, and how naval memers
had contrasted oar treatment of the men with that practised
in foreign services, urging at the same time that some plan
should be adopted calculated to prevent our gallant fellows
fom leaving the service of their native country. Ail he could
say was, that the Admiralty had endeavoured by moderate
additions to the pay and by good service warrants, as in the
army, to render the service attractive; and he earnestly ap-
pealed to the house not to refuse a grant calculated to have
to important and beneficial an effect on the interests of the
publi.: service. (Hear, hear.) He now came to vote No. 3,
for the official expenses of the Admiralty, lie
believed it had been proved to the satisfaction of
the committee that the business of the Admiralty
had increased in all its branches, and also that the es-
tablishment, as framed some years since, was wholly Made
quite to the amount of business to be done. He quite agreed
with the censure of the committee on the system of employ-
ing extra clerks without the sanction of the Treasury. lie
also concurred in the opinion that extra pay led to demo-
ralisation ; but in reference to them and other points, he
had the satisfaction of informing the house that the Ad•
miralty were prepared, that the whole establishment, both
at Whitehall and S merset.house, should be revised during
the recess ; that they should be fixed under order in council,
and that from that time forward neither extra clerks should
he appointee, nor extra pay given without the written sanc-
tion of the Treasury, to be given on written application from
t e department requiring assistance. Another point on
which the committee had refrained from giving an opinion
was en increase of salary to the second secretary (Captain
Hamilton). lie (tile. Ward) could only say that it
was on full examination of the subject, and from
I a conviction that the salary of the second ',screwy
had originated in mistake, that the amount had been
increased. It was felt that there should he a distinction
between the second secretary and the first clerk, and there-
fore an addition of 5001. a year had been made to the salary
of the former ; but it was only just to Captain Hamilton to
say that he had refused to take the increased Wary until it
had received the sanction of the House of Commons. He
now came to vote No. 5, for the scientific branches of the ser-
vice. The committee observed that there was a double
source of increase in this vote, one permanent and the other
temporary. The temporary source of increase was the
Arctic expedition ; and when the house recollected the cir-
cumstances of this rote, that those ga'lant men who had
been sent out four years since to ascertain the limits of the
world in the north had only been provisioned for four years,
sad that their only hope of returning to their native country
ley in their meeting with the expedition which had been
prepared for their relief, he felt certain that they would
unanimously be o
of pinion that the Admiralty had
only consulted the interests of humanity in doing
everything that could be done
yet to enable them to reach home
in safety. They had not as heard the results of she
recent expeditions, but he believed diet every precaution
hod been taken, ao that at whatever point of the continent
Sir John Franklin approached he would find relief. (Hear,
hear.) That was the cause of the temporary addition, the
permanent c insisted of the amount which had been expended
in surveys. The Admiralty were prepared to take the
"mount suggested by the committee, namely, 70,0001., it
such should be the pleasure of the house. They would also
endeavour to contrive for the public increased facilities of
selling the Admiralty charts. (Hear, hear.) With respect
to the railway and harbour departments, he concurred with
:he committee in thinking it oppressive t i the public, that
questions in which the rights of the crown were concerned
should go through the ordeal of these anomalous tribunals.
lie was in communication with the Board of Trade on the
subject, with a view to a consolidated tribunal, before which
the rights of public department., as connected with railway"
and other speculations, might be ascertained. On votes 5 and
6, which comprehended the wages and salaries paid in the
dockyards. the committee had made some observations oa
the re-establishment of the building-yard at Deptford. Now,
the policy of that reestablishment might have been ques-
tioned at the time; tut on the impoleey of breaking it up
;hi re could be no question. The total numb( rof ships in
our dockyards was not more then suil.cient, and it the plan
which had been suggested of using the slips for preserving
ships instead of launching them were adopted, there would
not be a single slip too many. At page 47 of the report the
committee mode some remarks respecting the duties of cu
perintendents of the dockyards, in every s}llable of which he
entirely concurred; and he could a-sure the house that it was
the intention of the Admiralty. to act in the spirit of those re-
marks by bestowing those appointments on no man who should
not be in the full possession of his !acuities both of body and
mind. With respect to preforming public works by con-
tract in private yards, he feared that such a course would
only lead to increased a eat nse and inconeenii nee. It was
true that in the government establishments the stimulus of
private enterprise was wanting; but the Admiralty had
substituted every inducement to excellence in their power.
They had given up the whole patronage, thus opening the
field of promotion to all, and, as he believed, with the most
satisfactory results. He believed that at the present moment
the dockyards were rearing a class of artificer" who would
do credit to those establishments and their country. With
aspect to the number of ships in commission the committee
observed that the number should be apportioned to the
wants of the country, and drew a comparison hetwet n the
number at I resent in commission and the cstabl ishments of for-
mer times, which he thought they had hardly carried out to its
fair extent, because the decrease in some classes of ships had
been extraordinary. The number of line of battle ships had
diminished from 199 in 1814, to 47 at the present time,
which, with three ships about to he launched, would mike
50, instead of 117 as in 1826, and 97 in 1835. This had been
caused by the gradual proaress of decay in this elm of ship..
Many had been converted into hulks, lamer. ttos, and quaree-
tine ships. The committee seemed to concur in the sugges-
tion of Lord Auckland, that to keep up the proper .orce
these ships should be completed each year, that 12 or 15
should be always on the stocks, and that the materials for 12
or 15 more should be prepared and kept under c _vet. The
establishment of the dockyards had been fixed at
6,000 men in 1830; but that was before the general
introduction of steam, and when everything was in his (Mr.
Ward's) opinion cut down too low. The then establishment
had no reference to the steam navy, and did not
last a single year until it had to ha increased, and that
increase had been going on consistently with trie watts of
the country down to the present year. The committee re-
commended that these establishments should lie thoroughly
revised, and that an inquiry should lie made aa to what
building would be neeessai y during the nest five or six years.
They also recommended that the hired artificers should be
got rid of, and that for the future no extra men should be
employed without the sanction of parliament and the
Treasury. In those suggestions the Admiralty entirely
acquiesced, and proposed to revise the list annually. Next yeu
they expected to submit a revised scheme to parliament.
hey also concurred in the suggi etion as to the n cessity of
co-operation between the surveyors and the Memel tiepin-
ment. The idea of the board was, that those department
should be considered identical. The committee also spoiled
to the expense of applying steam as an auxiliary to old ships.
The Blenheim was the only old guard-ship to which it had,
as yet, been applied, and the result had been most satisfac-
tory. Capt. Chads, her commander, had given a most favour-
able report of her pert rmance at C-•ark, steaming out of her-
-1 boor against a heavy gale, and stated his opinion that such
vessels would be invaluable additions to squadrons. With
reference to so am factories, he hail to state that they had re-
duced the vote for Woolwich from 8.5,0001 to 65,0001., but in
the case of Portsmouth, they adhered to the original vote.
He did net agree with the committee as to the advantage of
getting the et eam.boilere made bi contract, es the expense of
transmitting such cumbrous machines from Birmingham or
other places would quite counteract any Baring in the cost of
construction. The committee's recommendation as to a
better systi in of accounts quite agreed with his own opi-
nion, and the house might depe .d upon it that he would
never rest satisfii d until he had a regular debtor and creditor
account to submit to parliament for the whole of the work
done. The suggestion as to employing engineers in the re-
pairs of their own vessels bad been aeticieated. The board
would entertain the suggestion of transferring the II ilys
head establishment to the company by whoni the service was
performed at present, and were open to propositiens, pro-
vided that lull security were given for the proper per-
formance of the service. The committee thought the steam
establishment at Malta excessive, but it was expected
by the Admiralty that it would be of the greatest service to
our fleets in the Mediterranean. Under the head of vote 10
the committee considered the system pursued with respect '
to the oak timber was impolitic. They seemed to consider
that the British oak might be saved by a greater use of
foreign timber. Now they were at the present moment ex-
perimentally using teak, African oak, mahogany, and
mare especially Italian oak; but the last had only lately
tome into use even in merchants' yards, and therefore its fit-
nese had not as yet been fully ascertained. The committee
hoped for a reduction in the use of eak timber, in consequence
of the completion of the steam navy. But they must not be too
sanguine. Three line of battle ships, according to Lord Au-k-
-land's annual estimate, would require 18,000 toads of timber,
and the average consumption for the last few years had been
26,000 loads, so thresitiere would to only 7,000 loads left for
frigates, steamers, and all other morns. He quite con-
curred with the committee in thinking that naval stores
should be kept up, and that restricting them was only put-
ting off the evil day. The committee then recommended
that timber should be taken as a separate vote. To that the
only objection was that he expected a great reduction in the
estimate for steam-vessels next year. He bad alreacy set
down that reduction at 180,0000, and he hoped still that it
might be carried out. With respect to new works,
about which there had been considerable difference
of opinion in the committee, he affirmed that all
those which had been undertaken at Portsmouth, Woolwich,
aadShatham, were absolutely necess ery for the defence of
the country. With respect to the Basin at Devonport it
had been made the subject of s local feud, and consequently
the government had found the greatest difficulty in coming
to a proper conclusion. They had, however, sent down Mr.
Rennie to examine into the case, and on his report all future
works in that quarter would be founded. Ile came next to
the works at Keyham. If those works were now
to be commenced, their policy might be doubted, as

bad been the • opinion cif the whew, but
that 400 OWL lad shady :lately seen(, it wetgl
Madeleew to abanderef them.. They were willtag
essepentd tba works dulle4fikii *went year, bat certainly
tralle troths at Haulbewline were a lOU to abandon them.
I Matter. lutti 0*17,' waited an aarengernent with Lord ?diddle.
eon roe
a liudlng.place for their completion. The
committee next recommended that 20,0001. for the barrsciu
at Oosport should not be granted during the present session.
Re must protest -against that deeieion. The barracks
were absolutely necsuery• and where completed would be
one of the floret eatatoithments in Europe. He must,
therefore, peen upon the house to grant this amount. There
was another recommendation as to the establishment at the
' Bermudas with which he was sorry to say the admiralty could
not concur. They were willing hi reduce the vote under that
head from 16,0001. to 10,0001., but it was impossible to carry
on the works at that station wholly by convict labour, and if
the sum now proposed to be taken, which was necessary for
iron roofs, was not agreed to, it would impede some
very useful works which it was most desirable should be car-
ried out. He wished to make au observation as to the vote
No. 13 for the coast-guard service, which it was proposed to
reduce from 16,0001. to 5,0001. In dealing with this service,
it was desirable to give every encourag. ment, with the view
of connecting it, as far as possible, with the navy reserve and
the channel service. They had had a very recent instance
of the usefulness of this when 300 men volunteered from the
coast guard, on an emergency, for service in Ireland;
and he was informed that of the whole body
only one mac stood upon what was called his
rights, and declined to he employed at sea. He now
came to a question en which the Admired,' and the commit-
tee were decidedly and, he feared, irreparably, at issue—that
was as to the vote, No. 14, which related to promotions.
The committee proposed that the admiral's list, which for two
years was fixed at 150, should be permanently reduced to
100, and that the reduction should be a Ifected by raising oily
one captain to the flag for every three vacancies by deaths
and by stopping promotion in a comspondir g degree through
every other rank in the navy. This decision WO, be be-
lieved, come to only by a bare majority of the committee,
nor was the resolution brought forwurd by the hon. member
who was expected to propose it, and to whose mind, he un-
derstood, so many difficulties occurred in regard to the va-
rying it out that he was not prepared to sanction it. Nothing
could eaprets with more propriety and delicacy the feelings
which should weigh with the house in dealing with this question
than the preliminary remarks of the committee. They say
that the subject is one of great public importance, "and at the
name time they are aware that it touches topics intimately
connected with the feelings, prospects, and private interes'•
of gallant officers towards whom your committee are desirous
of evincing eve ry proper consideration ef respect." But the
committee proceeded afterwards to give a recommendation,
which would, if carried out, injure the prospects and private
interests of those gallant officers, and that without soy cor-
responding advantage to the public. The Admiralty had n
wigh to have VA) admirals on the list in time of peace, if it
could be shown how it could be prevented. They admitted
they could never requite that number in time of war, and
that they never had had so to my ; hut then they teld the'
fag was the legitimate object of ambition with every officer
in the navy ; the hope of attaining to that rank by merito-
rious service and seniority was one of the conditions on
which he had entered the service, and he ought not to be
cheated out of it by any subsequent decision of the Howe of
Commons, the more sou the question hail been twice before
parliament during the last four years, and bail been twice
settled on its present touting, without any division. The
country had offered terms to the senior captains, to induce
them to come into the retired rank of rear-admiral, and
leave active service to younger and more active men, and had
made a sacrifice to obtain this object of 30,0001. a year. The
result of this recommendation would be to keep beck many of
the senior and worn out officers on the captain's list from the
admiral's rank, and thus you would cheat jouraelves of the
consideration for which the 30,00111. was paid, and which you
are bound to pay during the lives of these men, viz. •
younger and more active body of men on the list of captains
lot service, while you would break the heart of many a man
vho was now looking forward to the promised reward for
long and hardaervice. The effect of this proposal of the com-
mittee's would be ao to limit prom time in the naval se evict
that it would not be worth any man's while who had
Is. in his p ocket to enter it. F r these le a-
eons the Admiralty could not consent to the adop-
tion of the plan proposed by the committee. The only part
of that recommendation in which they concurred was that
which referred to the limitation el entrances into the ser-
vice. He admitted that the introduction of 200 or 300
cadets a year into the navy occasioned a presure for promo-
tion in every succeeding stage. It was impossible that pros
motion could go on in a healthy and regular state under
such a system; and Ile, therefore, proposed to adopt the
committee's ri commendation in this respect, and to limit
the number of cadets to be admitted in any one year to 100,
and in the event of any necessity arising for increasing that
number a statement of such nece city, and the grounds of
it, would be laid before parliament. With regard to the hall-
pay list, though the reduction in it appear. d small, it
should be remembered that the navy had not the resources
which the army possessed of disposing of commissions by
purchase. A man once on the half-pay list in the navy wan
there for life, and be had not the opportunity of Irons
leering his commission to a younger matt, who mitelet
be called upon for service, as in the army. If they
compared the cost to the country of the army and navy, in
regard to generals and admirals, they would find that the
pay of general officers and colonels of C. giments was
154,000 t. ; of gen. rale unattached, 76,000 e. ; of lieutenant-
otelonels on hall-pay, 37,0001. ; and of li, tate:taw-colonel,
on full prey, 63,0001. ; the total being 330,0001. as the
charge for generals and colonels on full and hall pay ;
whereas the whole charge for the admirals, cap sins, efice.,
was only '232,5011. The Admiralty saw no of jectinn
that the font-office service should be a separate
charge ; that the freight service shou:d he a mutter
of account between the two di partments, and not be
' included for the future in the navy estimate a; and
I that the charge for the packet department should be in
a separate vote. The public saw thooo,ooo/. charged in the
navy estimates, and it was not generally remembered that
about 1,01)0,0001. of this wee for services with which the navy
I had nothing to do. Ile agreed with the committee, there-
fore, that it was most deeirabte to make this distinction. Ile
had now gone through the several recommendatiems of the
committee. Altogether, large and small, he btlievell they
numbered 33; of these the Admiralty adopted 29—(hear);
and he trusted he had given sufficicut reasons why they felt
it their duty not to adopt the riot. Ile would only further
mid, that he believe d the navy was in as efficient a state writ
had ever peen ; all the foreign stations were fully provided
for; at home tl.ere was a large force, though net
larger than was required. Marty changes had been
lately made of a most useful character as regarded
the ordinary the guard-ships, and the steam rev rye,
at Portsmouth. Of the uttiity of that reserve the committee
could not have a better example than in what occurred last
wi ele. In the course of that week there was reason to
believe that an additu nil force might be necessary in Ire-
Icnel. On the 27th of July orders were given to the Admi
rally at 10 o'clock in the morning for equipping immediately
four en...els of the steam reserve for service; on the 26th, at
10 o'clock in the morn ng, three were on their way to Spit.
head with their complements of men, arms, etores, coals,
provisions, and everything but the powder on board. The
powder was shipped at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and an
hour utter...Hs they ',lied to De vonport, where they
arrived at 10 the next morning, and for k on hoard the 63rd
Regiment, which they carried to C irk and landed there at
4 o'clock next day. (Hear.) 11, mentioned this to show
that such was the state of efficiency in this department that
a sufficient force might be brought to any point in the empire
in as short time as could be necessary. But this, whicn
m .de us more strong on the one hand, weakened 1113 on the
other; for what we c mid du others could do, and our only
security was in keeping up this reserve force to as large an
extent as was pos.ible. This reserve cost comparatively
nothing ; the it amore, were in a constant state of prepare-
tiun, and the whole eatablish Lent did not exceed 270 men ;
and by keeping up this they had six steamers always avail-
, able for any service at twelve hour. notice, and six more in
two or three day., or as aeon as men could lie obtained to pat
I into them. The earnest wish of the Admiralty was to carry
out economy in every branch of its department, but they
were not prepared to do arrythit.g which could in any way
' impair the legitimate source of England's safety in the event
oe foreign aggression. They wished hi be prepared with ample
means of defence whenever the necessity for it should arrive,
—they desired to maintain an e Hective force, not to be nevi
for the purpose of eggresaiun on our pert, but to resist it on
the part of others, should it ever be attempted ; and to do
that, he was happy to say, the navy was never is a more
efficient state than at this moment. (Hear, hear.) lie had
now to propose that '293,5031. be granted to complete the
vote for wages fur seamen and marines for the year 1848-9.
The revolution having been put,
Mr. HUME wished to know how, consistently with the
form of the house, he could take the 'tense of the committee
as to those recommendations of the select commit!• e which
the hon gentle man said the Admiralty would not adopt ?
He thought in many respects the committee upstairs had
dealt very leniently with these estimates. The honour-
, able gentleman (Mr. Ward) said that they had not hit
mein, blots considering the extent of the inquiry,
but they had not carried the inquiry back to past
years or they might have made a great many hits.
But the committee heel thought it better to endeavour to
correct existing evils, and to improve the management of
the Admiralty for the future, than to lose time in inquiring
Into the mischief which had been already done; and, seeing
**readiness with which the Admiralty had furnished all
the Information required, he had been induced to acquiesce
in that course. lie believed the waste of money in the con
struction of ships had been enormous. The hon. Secretary
congratulated the house that the navy was in a most elfi-
eient state. lie (Mr. 'lame) had never heard a Secretary of
the Admiralty who did not say the same thing—(hear) ;
but the question was, what was really necessary for the ser-
a vice of the country. The committee were precluded from
entering into the question of the number of men ; but their
report proceeded on the principle that, unless they limited
I the number of men, they could not place any limit on the
amount of stores and provisions. Tnere was no reason for
win airing the navy at its present extent ; the circum-
stance* of Europe had changed from what they had
been. There was now no fear of fore lea aggression—foreign
nations had enough to do to look to their own affairs. (Ili ar.)
The average amount of the navy estimates in the years 1833,
'34, and '35 was very little more than half their present
amount. In 1833 to 1836 the number of men averaged
27,000, and the expense was 4,630,0001. ; now the number of
men was 43,000, and the expense 7,960,0001. The hon.
gentleman had spoken of the importance of our steam force;
bat he seemed to forget that we maintained as large a sailing
torte now as we did before we had any steam force at al/.
The force kept up in the Mediterranean,on the coastof Africa,
and other foreign stations was far greater than was nee, s-
nary. lie believed the labours of any committee would
be useless in preventing unneceswy expenditure un-
less for house determined to ^stop the supplies
and forte the government to economise. He Round

throughout the estimated the same tendeney to
_ihn.-
crease the charge spew the musts* year after year. T
nrhi:olobgfeeFoelef meamitsto:irsbC.er:o7astharetdov) htiedneeargeteithereden:mouctionwfa:Edia:tdrha
was the °bs of ambition to every one who eeterell the
d
entlifaiilltho.retteWocryhhaynog.ncenkteltliwiut7.iyhano be
n bishop
eeam dreaiteasabilaareniiorsa object
toret oca fcht the
hux: n anhcb:i
on: office
d hiskusps should be maintained. (A laugh.)
ainaned that the increase of general officers
armya was as objectionable as the increase of admirals • the
.narvice.
oArece6B3rdminpgtaitensthweurepo9
yrtaonf thane
80imt coe erre the
maan:ddr one
and 22 years
irrms nanatdh 81,0 and on b thatlfd po arnol. yr, 20 y ear s and 4
Bhmoanolynfhet:
half-pay,
years
atyhalt
6o
neon
.2L3.79,, i
de ust emn
oe
tt
he,
.4; yt ea
oaf n
shownl
go n
fl, c and
:hd,
showingf
tio7 greatery.er
continue.ar oi d Ent state
facthtiena lofEt mnt pay,
hgeil things that
heed ought
nthanevlllr ib
been
oetti :nt ot e:ioh
dwlsogai:l:llfg
as she was at present, and it was his intention, before tit
Hellion terminated, to call the attention of the house to the
subject, and to show what an enormous end unnecessary bur-
den of taxation that people were now subject d to. The hon.
gentleman read an extract from the fourth report ot the
finance committee of 1819, presided over by Mr.
I/USU.." containing the strongest recommendations
to attend in time of peace to retrenchment and economy
which recommendations ho must say the present government
had noc paid the least attention to, for that house wits now
called upon to vote for the army no less than 3,400,0001. more
than in former years. Before he sat down he must make
one more objection, although it might be considered trifling,
and that wax to the waste of public money in useless salutes.
(A laugh.) There WA soructimes expended in one day in
this extravagance as much ae would relieve nearly all the
charities in the country. As far their mode of building
ships, it was about the most extravamint that could be de
vised ; end altogether, he must say, that if proper economy
were studied, toe navy estimates—now about 8,000,000b—
might, without injuring the nuble service, be reduced one
half. taut he regretted to think that the present govern-
ment gave no promise of reduction—at a moment, too, when
the country stood most in net d of an efficient and economical
administration of public affairs.
Capt. GORDON and Capt. BERKELEY having made
some few observations,
Mr. COBDEN said that he did not blame the in-
crease of expenditure, but the system, which might to be put
an end to. If the only ground for increasing the naval
armament of the country had been the necessity of keeping
pace with other countries, it was plain it might be obviated
by an agreement amongst the several countries concerned,
instead of running a race of rivalry, to come to the under. I
derstantling that there should be no comparative increase, an
that each country would then stand in the same relative
position, while immense expense would be saved. Ono great
trllhe had been and was in our steam navy. At this mos
mint we had either built, or building, or ordered, a steam
navy equal to 100 vessels, averaging 1,000 tons each; and in
addition to these, which might becalled war steamers, we had
60 or 70 small steamer,' under the denomination of gun boats
or tenders. The cost of the war steamers which were equal to
100,000 tons, might be put down at 5,600,000 t., and of the
fleet of small vessels at 100,0001., making • gross total of
6,000,001'1. for our steam marine. He asserted, however
incredible it might appear, but he did so upon the most cor-
rect data, that we had actually expended upon our stems
warships a larger sum of money than fur the whole of our
merchant steamers engaged in the foreign or coasting trade.
Now if this race of folly and extravagance were to be conti-
nued, he did not hesitate to say it would have been a blow-
ing to the country had steam navigation never been intro-
duced inns it. (A laugh.) If we kept up as large a capital
in war-steamers as was required for the whole of our mer-
chant steamers, what possible advantage could there be in
it? (Hear, hear.) He would undertake to prove that the
war-steamers of Fr ewe, Sardinia, Denmark, Russia, and
Austria cost more than their me rchant steamers; acid the
present he regarded as a fitting time to induce other nations
to reduce the enormous expenditure thus incurred. He
affirmed, too, that we had a larger amount of money in-
vested in steam-factories and steam-basins and docks for re-
pairing steam-engines, &c., than was embarked in all the
private yards and docks engaged in the manufacture of prh
vale steamers. For instance, there was invested in Wool-
wich 150 OWL ; in Portsmouth, 250,0001. ; and in Keyham,
near Plymouth, 1,205,0001., making a larger capital than
was engaged in the manufacture of alt the steamers et the
country. And all this enormous increase took place
either in consequence of some anticipated invasion
or some proposed increase on the part of other
countries. Judging from his evidence, Sir T. Hastings had
a sumed that this country was about to be engaged in a war ;
that battles vs, uld be fought In certain localities, and that
repaint would be necessary for the aar steamers engaged in
those battles ; and then he went to work and persuaded the
government that it was necessary 12,2'251. should be laid out
at Keybarn, in order to make arrangements for the repair of
the crippled vessels that might come home from these imagi-
nary engagements. Sir Thomas Beatings had told the
maven ment that it was necessary to have established places
for the repair of 70,000 Ilene poser of war steamers,
after ligh.ine these imaginary battles, in which the gallant
officer also assumed that they mu,t have been victorious.
But the gallant officer had been asked this question before
the select committee, viz., whether he regarded these pre-
, parations as being rim nary in time of peace? And to this he
had distinctly anareereci " I view all these questions with
reference to a state of war. " Still however, great so had been
all these preparations, and considereble as had tieen the out-
lay upon them, they were not held to be sufficient to satiety
all the gallant officers who had been a zamined before the
committee. The hon. and gallant admiral the member for
Laun:eston (Admiral Bowles) had teen asked, what in his
opinion ought to be the amount of the force, to which
be had answered ; "No profession is unanimous about
enythina—(.aughter); hut I believe that ac, officer in
the aavy whoa r opinion is worth anything would
say that the naval farce of this country ought to be
as low as it is at present." (11'ar, hear.) The hon. and
'gallant admiral then went on to give the committee his idea
'of what the naval force of this country ought to be, for when
asked the question he had repl cal " at least heel more than
the force of the French navy, whatever their navy might
lie. It they have GO or 70 steamers, we ought to hare
80 or 90."
Admiral BOWLES said the copy of the evidence which
the hon. member was quoting he (Admiral Dories) had not
had an opportunity of correcting. The answer ought to
refer not to steamers but to ships of the line.
Mr. COBDEN weed not differ from the hon. and gallant I
mbvr, but would concede to him that England was en-
titled to have a larger naval force than any other country.
At the same time he adhered to the opinion that
when gallant admirals and captaios had been called upon to
'owe their advice to the select committee as to the amount of
the naval armament to be kept up by England, they were
influenced by professional Celine*, and had urged an increase
without any reference to the expense. It seem, cl to him that
Sir Thomas Hastings had canunitted a great error, and
had assumed a physical possibility, which he called upon I
the government and the house to recognise as a moral
probability. (Hear, hear.) lie assumed that the French
fleet might come to Gosport and desiroy the establishm. at at
Portsmouth—that was a possibility; bat ware it a probability ?
and yet he call.d upon the caenrry to incur millions of ex-
p. one. And where was this expenditure to end? Nothing
alieet of martello towers ere veil round the coast, within 100
yards of eitch other, would convince the old ladies of the
country that they were safe. lie (Mr. Cobden) thought
that in all these proceedings they had shown a want of
rt Enelish pluck." This was thought elsewhere; fur he
fennel in an American paper the coarse remark that England
had incurred a large expense to play the bully, and that now
she was incurring a large expense to play the coward..
'Chose expenses bad b en incurred to meet imaginary dim
gers, and what no power was coming to molest the country;
anal he asked her Majesty's government whether something
might not be dune to put a atop to the inordinate expendi-
ture—whether it was not possible and rational to make a
proposal to continental states to discontinue the absurd sys-
tem of inereusina armaments. He might be called utopian
is making this suggestion if be did not find himself sane
leaned by a big.. authority in this house—no less a one than
the right h en. baronet the member for Tamwortn—who,
its
1811, just before he took office, asked if the time was no'
co iie when the powerful countries ot Europe might reduce
their simameuts, which had so assiduously been raised to
overgrown establishments. I. one (sewer, said the right hon.
baronet, in, tressed its army and navy, others fol-
lowed the example, and he asked what was the danger
tram foreign invasion compared with the danger of
creating discontent by crippling the comforts of the
popaletion by enormous burthetia of expenditure.
He (Mr. fanlekn) wished the councils of every nauon, and
the public mind in each, wound propagate these doctrines.
The; country had sent many embcasiea abrosd to negotiate
both fir pence and war, and he (Mr. Cobden) asked the
house and the country why r missionary should not go from
the Foreign-office to France and ether countries to propose a
partial disarmament in each in time of peace. At present
this country was keeping a force equal to tnat which she hail
maintained when engaged in war. For this purpose
18.000,0001. wee voted ; and what did that sum represent ?
Why is. represented 8,000,000 quarters of wheat—it repre-
seated 1,800,000 of 101. heuses—is represented the value of
the whole of the towns en the coast; and he maintained it
was as much thrown away as ii it was cast into the sea, be-
cause it produced nothing for the country. The purposes for
which the naval armament was kept up had never been pro-
perly defined. True it was that the Earl of Auckland,
the First Lord of the Admiralty, had been questioned by the
committee as to the rule which guided him in the dispo-
Aden of his forces, and had declared that there was no rule,
but that he thought it right to have a larger force than any
other nation in every quarter of the globe. And what was
the practical result ? They had been employed in the
miserable affair of the River Plate There had been a
waste of money at Monte Video and Buenos Ayres, but
Lord Auckland had kept a fleet there because he said the
French had a fleet there which it was necessary to watch.
But Wile this generally necessary ? This country had a trade
with China, and on that coast she kept no leer than 25 ships
I of war; and, he asked, could any trade be ramble when
such an expenditure was necessary to protect it? Any
increase of inch a trade would prove the ruin of thee
country. Surely, then, some definite rule ought to be laid
down to guide the government in fixing the disposition of
I the naval establishment. He observed that in the evitlence
it was admitted that the trading vessels of this count y were
now everywhere free from the attacks of pirates. This was
a modern gain and advantage to this country which their
forefathers had not enieyel. True there were Malay prows
in the Indian archipelago, but it did not require ships of
war to attack them, because they did not attack the Bettina
teasels of this country. Oa the contrary, they only attacked
one another. Again, there were now no tears like those
which prevailed when the Algerines used to strip the Medi-
terranean; and therefore, on all these grounds, he contended

that these armaments were maintained merely
other •
becalm
European nations were running against each
race of folly and extravagance. Why not, then,
commence pacific overtures for the reduction of
th• N expensive and useless armaments? He (Mr.
Cobden) had been taunted the other night by the
hen, member for Oxfordshin (Mr. Henley), that he had
not proved a good het with regard to the French revolu-
tion. Now he (Prof
Mr. Cobden) thought he could not be
blurted for not seeing a month before that which Louis
l'hi.ippe aid M. Guizot did not see at 12 o'clock on the day
preceding that on which the explosion had taken place.
But what was now going on in Europe presented no symp-
tom of any war between the great nations of which it was
composed. Each country wislied to settle down and live in
peace. The popular voice now prevailed, and wee averse to
wars originating in the quarreler( crown.cl heads and royal
marriages, and such like. ( hear.) He repeated that
there was nothing in the present state of things to prevent
the government from asking foreign states to retrace their
steps, and commence the process of disarmament. All
countries exhibited the necessity of reducing
con l theiir
expenditure in this respect. Look at the
titan of this country, and then let Ilan. members
ask themselves whether, in this respect, they were not pursu
ing a course which, as private individuals, or as members of
a pariah vestry, or of a municipality, they would not be
ashamed to adopt. (Hear, hear.) It was admitted that this
year there was a deficit of 1,700,0001. Reduce the arms.
menu and then trade and commerce would be relieved.
Take off 1,000,0001. irom the naval expenditure, and then
the tea duties might be repealed, by which the trade with
China would be increased, with manifest advantage to the
merchant, the manufacture', and the working classes. Take
tall another million and the whole force of exc se officers
might be dispensed with. Re believed that France was pre-
pared to set this country an example with respect to the
reduction of her armaments, because he had saner
tallied that M. Cloudelaux propeneed to reduce the
naval expenditure of that country by 31,000,000 francs.
This had appeared in Cialignemi, but he (Mr. Cobden),
doubting the authenticity, had written toe friend, •member
of the National Assembly, who had compared the statement,
and said that Mr. Ooudchaux had addressed circulars to the
Minister of Marine and other departments t' that affect. To
Ame.ica this country could no,. set an example, because
there the naval expenditure bail never exceeded 1,250,0001.
In conclusion, he again repeated that it became the house
and the country to urge and entreat the government
to use its diplomacy to induce other nations to retrace
their steps and reduce the inordinate expenditure now la-
vished in the maintenance of armaments. (Hear, hear.)
Admiral BOW LES said the great error which the lion.
member (Mr. Cobden) had throughouthis speech committed
arose from his having viewed this question simply as one of
mere pounds, shillings, and pence, and had nut considered
the great national advantages to which this expenditure
would give rise, both at home and abroad. The hon. roe m.
her had dealt with the question in a very ad capratedunt
manner, and had failed to take • statesmanlike view of it.
(Hear, hear.) He had thrown ridicule on the notion of a
party in this country with reference to the peace of Europe ;
but he (Admiral 11 twles) must take leave to inform the lion.
member that at the time the outlay of the late government
was made the dangers were real, and such as it became the
duty of those having the responsibility to provide sgainst.
The hon. member had alluded to the evidence of Sir
Thomas Hastings, with respect to which he (Admiral
Bowles) would say that there was no doubt that if a war had
broken out suddenly (as had been likely in 1844) the country
was in great danger of being unprepared, owing to
the ill.understood and ill-considered system of eco-
iiiimy which had prevailed during the preceding
ten years. What had been the fact? Why France, seeing
that this country was very much relaxing ir. its attention to
its naval force, turned its attention to the increase of its
steam navy, and set about erecting dockyards and building
ships, at an expenditure which he confeased,wst bath unwise
and. unjustifiable. She, however, made great naval prepare,
tieing, despite the appeal of the right hon. baronet the mem-
her for Tarcworth, to which the hon. member for the West
Riding (Mr. Coteler.) had alluded. Instead of catering into
the views expressed in that appeal, France adopted a reverse
course, and every person, the chemise-I, and t,,e government
set out on a race to see how best they could prepare for a
war with this country. Now circumstances were changed,
and he trusted a better spirit had grown up among the
French people ; but at the time he had mentioned it was
manifest that the naval preparations of France were
directed against this country, and it therefore became the
government here, both the late and the present, to male ex-
ertions ; and he could bear the fullest testimony not only to
the necessity of those ex,rtions, but also to the fact that no
expenditure had been incurred beyond that which was abso-
lutely necessary. After the able speech of the hon. gentle-
man the Secretary for the Admiralty (Mr. H. G. Ward) he
(Admiral Bowles) did not feel it necessary to trouble the
house with many observations. He should not enter upon a
defence of the evidence he had riven before the select com-
mittee • but if there was any flaw in it he begged the hon.
member (Mr. Cobden` now to point it out in his presence,
that he might answer or explain it.
Admiral DUNDAS said that no rule was adopted by the
Board of Admiralty without the surveyor of the navy
being preterit, though he was nut entitled to a seat at the
board.
Mr CORRY, who was most indistinctly heard, defended I
the increase which had been made iii the salary of the Second
Secretary to the Admiralty—an increase wnich had bola
cantempiated by the administration with which he had beim
connected. As to the statement of the ships of the line hav-
ing been reduced to 50, he (Mr. Corry) had Teuton to believe
that the ships of the line now ready for sea we re 75 or 80 in
number, all of which he was glad to state could be most
readily manned. NS ith regard to the expenditure upon ex-
periments of the application of the screw, he could state that
those in the Blenheim had been most successful, and
he was convinced that a valuable addilon would be made
to the naval service by the adoption of the screw pro-
pellers in old guard-ships, and in that opinion he was
fortified by that of Capt. Chads. He trusted no ministry
would ever be found ready to act on the principles advocated
by the hon. member for the West Riding.
Lord .1. RUSSELL—The hon. member for the West
Ridirg has .aid down certain principles which may be of use
for after-consideration, with a view to the prepat ation of the
estimates fora future year. No one, I believe, wishes to re-
duce the navy estimates for the present year. But I think it
important that the house should give some coosideration to
certain of the hon gentleman's principles, with a view to
what is to be the basis of our estimates in future. The hon.
gentleman said, very fairly and very truly, that we cannot
"mt all coasideratioes of the naval force of other countries;
and uot only so, but that no one in this country, nor any
foreign power, can find fault if our navy were stronger than
that of any foreign power. (Hear.) So far I quite agree
with him. I do not go so far as Lord Castlereagh did in
1817—that this country ought to have a naval force equal to
that of any two foreign pewees : but I think that what the
hon. member foe the West Riding has stated, that we ought
to be stronger at sea than any. foreign power, is a proposition
to which the house may fairly went. But, in discussing
what that force should be, the hon. gentleman laid down
principles in which I cannot petaibly concur. Ile quoted
very correctly the statement of the right hon. gentleman at
the head of the late government—that it was most desirable
that countries should agree not to run a race of competition
as to the amount of force which they should keep up; that
such a course would lead to great extravagance; and that it
would be Mr more rational and better for the people of all
countries to agree in making moderate reductions than to
seek to exceed each other. In that principle 1 quite agree.
But the hon. gentleman omitted to state that the
right honourable baronet when in power, without
at all retracting that view, had yet found it
necessary in consequence of the increase of the French navy,
very much to increase our force, and to lay the foundation of
very extended force of steamers—(hear, hear)—thus incur-
ring a very large expenditure, and laving obliged to act on
principles other than those which he thought it most desir-
able both for this country and France to act upon. It is ob-
vious, that. had France been willing to take that suggestion,
and had she made a great reduction at that time, the right
hon. gentleman would have acted on the principles he had
Lid down. But as France went on the opposite principle,
making a great expenditure in order to have a large naval
force, and especially a large force of steamers, it was quite
impossible for any government of this country not to follow
that course, and have on one side • consideralile force by
which we might be able to defend ourselves in care of a
war with France. (Hear, hear.) When Sir Thomas
Hastings said that this country might be exposed
to war, and that if • war broke out, there
probably would be battles at sea, I don't think he wandered
tar into the regions of imagination, or laid himself open to
the charge of being extremely fanciful in supposing that
Isomething might occur which had occurred six or seven times
lin the course of the lst centur and that it was well to be
prroared lor it. (Haear, hear.y, ) But the hon. gentleman
I says our steam navy has cost an enormous sum, more than
the whole mercantile steam marine of the country. With-
out knowing the particulars of that estimate, I should be
mr.rh inclined to doubt whether that is the case. But the
interenee he draws is not well founded, that the navy is
larger than that which it would have to protect in cue of
war ; for our steam navy would not only have to protect the
merchant steam navy, but the whole of the com-
mercial marine of the country, as well as to
serve for other purposes of war, defence, and as-
sistance to fleets. It wou:d be • very inadequate notion
of the use of our steam navy to suppose that it is only to
protect our merchant steam navy. But the principle of say-
mg how much is the exact cost of the navy, and what is the
benefit to be derived from it in case of war, would lead to
very absurd conclusions. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentle-
man says our steam navy has cost more than would be
spent in building all the towns on the coast. Supposing that
' were true, would it be a wise thing for this country, in an
economical point of view, to refuse to spend this five, six, or
ten millions, whatever it may be, and let all the towns on
I the coast be destroyed ? (Cheers.) Supposing we had in-
formal ion, at the beginning of a war, that the French steam
worth 15,569,9991.
and 9,999 dintlrzedl,owedo,uldwhanilye
gainers by this ; for these
navy had gone from Dover to Land's end, and that every
t
n
tnetoewwenneashyaw" were been
After
Onn onlyoe
w'fi r we
ere
it would have coat, at least, 5001. more to have had
a navy which would have saved those towns from
destruction." (Cheers.) It is quite obvious the effect
would be that the whole country would be in a real panic,
such a panic as arises when • country finds itself incapable
of defence. (Hear, hear.) And as to economy, what gives
the whole security of capital in this country ? What has
caused people to lay out with the menet confidence in the
last few years upwards of 300 ,000,0001. in railways? What
causes them with such confidence to enter into commercial
and manufacturing speculations ? It is the belief that this
country is assured of its independence, that it can maintain
order within and respect without, and that therefore capital
can be safely laid out snit invested. (Cheers.) If every
town on the coot was burnt by a French navy, that feeling
of security would at once cease, and persons who had in-
vested capital here would say—" Let us go and invest our

capital in New York, or Philadelphia, and fiee....•roa,
try which has neither the wisdom no, --Lisle
rage to defend itself." (Hear, hear.) i37l‘
pears to meto be the pounds, shillings, and pee,.
our national defences. Without anise hag to the
patriotism, or national spirit, or anything oeT.,-,„_,`49, r
the " British lion" (laughter), 1 would ask o—'0„
cheapest way of maintaining the capital and riee67jk
country ? It is a far cheaper way to tulle* the (.;`k
down by the right hon. gentlemen the late Prime y_444
of having a good steam navy, one sufficient for ta,,„
of our coasts, than to calculate the exact sum wieg7.l
navy has cost, and compare it with the valets of obi
that might be burnt. (Cheers.) In much the;—,i.be ;
member for the west riding has said I aaree; eedrie
if the present French governmenr, being wi.,eit true
government, should think it proper to tediaseeZsl p
their naval expenses, which appear to me to furs let
travegant of late years, that would furnish good oZni,
as to carry into effect retrenchments coeld--'‘,„
wise be effected. (Hear, hear.) I think, 1ikevi—....141..
committee which has lately sat hes pointed ~;;,:•te
sources of expense which may very well be ieeLhal ,
inquiry and careful amendment in the coarse
year. I quite disagree wi h the hon. gentlerue
it was not just to subject the estimates to the e,-7.
select committee. (Hear, hear.) To take that ey„..11
year would be very unadvisable and unusual, aerj:lty
shirking the ordiniaty responsibility of a gover*,44k .
for my own part, I regret that that course ICU sot !t
1818, 1828, and 1838 ; and I think it was
take it in the present year. (Hear, hear.)
such cnmmittus, from time tin.., not too fregaeo:c
intervals of a few years, enable a government to
the expenses they have irriurred, and to t.,ke a beo
with regard to many detain of their expenditure," a
hear.) I perfectly agree likewise that nothiog s 7
foolish than for governments to vie with each .41
attempting to have large armament.(Chest ~t
general course, this is m'ot unwise, We
in the position of the United State of
vie are naturally more involved in 41
which concern the continent of Europe;
powers of Europe would all do well to keep th.ir
within moderate linatte. (Cheers.) When the hoe:
fur the west riding rpeaks of the prophesy ere,eit7
with respect to the trobabi ity of a revolution is ye,..44
mu.t remind him that he made another ptophery
that the present government would be so inflatanC;
clubs and coteries of London, that, in a very
they would become involved in a war with the heeds
public. I thought at the time that that premien.,
unjust to the governm, nt. (Hear, hear.) 1 eae
hon. gentleman that it never was our wish to your
the government of France—(hear, hear)—and 1 mak:
short time which has elapsed since the revolution ot Pa;
has Ammo that it has been our desire to act retiree
cert, and, at all events, on the best terms of a • Inc;
r. lations, with a government so powers! saLrlee,„
cned as that of France. (Cheers.) lau ele;
that the present government of France dishie"
wisely those projects of ambition which led Frew
the republic and under the empire, at first to briai4
quests, and afterwarde to a. signal calamities; diet *
sent goverment of France, and I Witte the whet
French nat ion, concur in the impolicy of such amine
on the contrary, their wish is to preserve the pea col
and that if there is a desire to break the rand Er*
arises not from France, but in other quarters.'
I cannot say that F think the present state of Ewe.
assured that any statesman could confichntly tindieste
number of years. the continuance of peace; baton.]:
to the government of France, I believe they are 'sine
a sincere desire to preserve that peme. (liear,hesz i 1.
lieve the powe:ful government of Russia is antreatetsi tl
same desire ; and I think, when three such powerful'. ,
ments as England, France, and Russia concur in to
to maintain the peace ot Europe, we may pretty
e Rot giastitrthAsltelaweezi:ld beepreeerved
could believe, with 'the
member for the West Riding, that democratic gm
way calculated to secure peace. ahe triumph of dre
in Germany had been followed up by the nivorimi!'
mark and Holland—a mere unprovoked invenouthun
tie found recorded in the page+ of history. The ma.
ot the hon. member for the West Riding was unfae*"
not fouud.d on fact ; his opinions on war were tot,
authorised by all that bad happened, and he wt. m*
right in not piquing himself on his powers ot pass
(A laugh.) lie bad drawn many flattering tiettanea
to be erected, and worked, and churches oat ea
to be filled, which bad not vet been realised, and teng
his assumption of the warlike consequences which bs
from monarchical government was equally Wee
It was not sovereigns ar aristocracies that calmed tan
which existed in Europe in modern times. This
thr. e wars in Europe in the last 2.50 years, exit are
lasted 30 years, ar.d in each case the war arose inn?
passion. The Thirty Years War in Germany ao td
by popul ass amino sod popular prejudice. The war di
reign of Louis .IV. was not awi r of individei
On the contrary, it arose from the indgoant ram
Europe. Neither was the war cansequent on Ike
revolution promoted by individuals or by an
All those wars were occasioned by popular punier
judice, and the ambition of nations. Then timers
what were called little wars : it would be toned de
were net occasioned by sovereigns or cehineta. Or
powerful minister was forced against his will by a
the liouea of Commons to engage in a war vitt
Tile hon. gentleman (alr. Cobden) said the beg
peace was the desire of nations to keep at home. Tie
plc:: of nationality and rare were now emits*
but they were two different things. Nationality
principle of political independence—race that c '
analogy. The principle of race, and not the primp
tionality, was adopted by Germany—that down
tranquil Germany, that only
W wan
ha t must bted to be c
(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) be
consequence if the principle of race, to which
gentleman looked as the best security for pun ea
be accepted as a great p.litical trit.h? kin
principle, and why should France be left bread
Alsace ?—Why should Russia be left Linn.' St
hea.) In that principle of race there was the coupe
general war, and yet it was on that principle theaml
gentleman came down to criticise the estimate., uilq
that there was any necessity for the country to alma
lie was not surprised that the hon. gentlemu
stsa
opposid to protection in every shape—(latighav-xl
trusted that the protection of home and ol
ti
would be always popular on both lido G I
house. (Hear, hear.) The noble lonl
great confidence on the prospect of peace ins vein
standing between what he described as the threrpe
governments of England, Russia, and France. (feet
to find that there was a strong goveroment sis
(Laughter.) But he should like to know why 12.:a
gov, rnment was not recognised by the Queen.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to sty tlev

recognised.
Mr. DISRAELI said that the powerful prefix
which the noble lord alluded seemed to him to x • ,
lug the crisis of its destiny. But, revert:ay tote -
hetore the house, be should like to know mulls
done to protect British commerce and Briiils
trading in the Baltic, where one of the stricter
that was ever proclaimed was now declared ? Sist
ego Danmark proclaimed a blockade; but it vat
in a mat.ner as little noxious as po.sible to •
and especially as regarded English commerce. Irt,
Denmark received from them he need out remind es,
(Hear, hear) But now • blockade of the raze.: c.
stringent character was proclaimed, and r.o
house could blame Denmark for the course she ta.
(Hear, hear ) It was not only strict and were,
much snore comprehensivehan the. former es, L.:
(erred to the whole of the Baltic. and would tea-,
their communication with the west of Gering•
be a great satisfaction and consolation to Britidis:
who had shown great temper on the whole epeeist
misconceptions between Deumark and Gerais* t,
what steps had been taken to preserve [Writes
commerce in the Baltic. The mediation of this oar'
been asked for, not by Denmark, who oaly sAic,
vernment to fulfil the guarantee which esistedrr-
of England— (hear)—but by Prussia, speekiag sit
new German confederation, and yet the srm'°
been agreed upon was not yet completea, and Demo
forced to t..ke the step which had been that thystv
It would be gracious it the noble lord opposite (LS,.,
ld *ton) won inform them whether Prussia still rrorrs
independent state ? (Laughter.) The Prince Le
one of the mediatised princes, an able and
mxo
had been made minister of foreign affairs ta the
confederation, and it would be well to hordode
King of Prussia had also become a raedisfited Pte'
so, whether he would accept office under thew!
ation t tLaugh•er.) These were subjects osilm
merchants were entice I to some informition
rt
another blockade of great importance, with reP
he wished to know what steps had been taken All
Lion of British commerce. He should like to km+
the state of affairs in the troubled wattn of ir:j
He had reasons for asking that question, beast In'
calved a letter from a person connected with a ,
able house in Liverpool, stating that they hair,.
to suspend pajment in consequence of the stated r";
that quarter, and that if some settlemeet ws as"
every other house trading to La Plata mete
similar result. For five or six years they bri
dented amount of force in the Rio de la Plea:
very remarkable that they had no accounts ..4.7.;
thme revions. British enterprise was most scow;
establishments had been formed there. Isirrr...i •
was directed to the disturbed district, and be ms_r.. -
what had been done for the rindicatioe ol"
and the protection of their interests ia
Ire an early period of the session he asked th,,
lay on the table the instructions which had beta
envoy extraoroinary who was to terminated' tr,;,.11,
Lions and differer.ees that existed in Ls PIMA.
"
lord objected, on the ground that. Lord 110ne
"00
having failed, another special mission _, 0,
the production of the instructions might pn
termination of the negotiations. Tail
, failed, and a third person had been mot ogt,,a
Of Commons received no informaien on the .t;!lter,-
seemed they were as far from a settlement el. as
ever. lie thought the House of Collllolllll°,
quire first of all why the excellent Mr Mao *r_7,;;,. • •
ter at Buenos Ajres, had not obtained "
next, why Mr. Ouseley, who had beelstbreent, /1":„ja,
Aberdeen, had also failed ; why Mr. lioodtLl!,•,o4,
Mr. It. Gore, five envoyrextraurdiniq, „.
understood that Mr. Southern, the sixth eor';'•,;,:
way, and yet the House of Comma?' or rt,'!.
it
without any infatuation one e sub), ct, :•I,jvc
cautile houses were failinn conslOoraces ireatt
remaining unsettled. It now appeared w
cial source that the government of Framer Baton
enforce instantl a stringent blocksle,o, ams
The effect of thay t would be most 11400.1