The Express.
London, England, 1849-02-15 00:00:00

INSOLVENT MEMBERS' BILL.

Mr. MOFFATT moved the second reading of this bill.
He said it was no theoretical question which the house was
now called upon to discuss; it wee simply one a common
muse end common &meaty. The bill which he had the ho-
nour to introduce intended to apply to all the members of
that house provisions which at present applied to oily a part
of them. He proposed to withdraw from that house the
privilege by which members might avoid p iying their debts;
but he had carefully avoided interfering with any other pri-
vilege, and did not in any way touch that of freedom from
arrest. The bill extended to insolvents the provisions of the
act of 1812, which declared that it was highly necessary for
the preservation of the dignity and importance of parlia-
ment that members of the House of Commons who be-
came batkrupte should no longer retain their seats.
That was the principle upon which this measure was
founded. The act of 1812 -bad been found to work well,
and he now proposed to apply the seine principle to them who
were not madders, as to those who were Maitre. The home
having admitted the precedent of a pecuniary diaqualification,
he apprehended there would be no objection to this measure,
tint* at would be incumbent on th• In, for the sake of con-
sisting, either to abolish the act of 1812, or at once to de-
stroy the distinction between traders lull non-traders. He
had introduced a similar measure last session, but although
the principle met with the general concurrence of the house,
several objections were made to the details. He believed,
however, that all those objections were obviated in the
present bill. It had been stated by some that this bill did
not go far enough, and many boo. members had
expressed their desire to see the freedom from arrest
abolished altogether. After a full consideration of the
matter he did not think such a course would be desirable,
became it would be very inconvenient for a member charged
with public business to be arrested at any moment. It had
also been said, that if they excluded insolvent members from
the House of Commons, they should also exclude insolvent
from the House of Peers. (Hear, hear.) He was
leropinion, however, tha tit would not be wise to interfere
with the privileges of the other house, who, like themselves,
wife naturally jealous of their rights. (Hear.) At the same
time, he felt convinced that if that house refused any longer
to be a refuge for insolvent debtors, the House of Peers would
not loeg strive to retain for itself so discreditable and dis-
graceful a privilege. (Hear, hem) He begged to move
the second reading of this bill.
Sir G. GREY trusted that the house would agree to the
second reading of this bill.
Mr. BUENA!. said he had objected to the bill of lest see-
sloe Meanie it was encumbered with unnecessary matter.
The bill now before them he should not oppose in its present
stage, but there was one important clause which would re-
quire residers. He alluded to that clause which would
'sandlots an interregnum as to the seat of any member for
142 maths, while the vesting orderof the insolvent court was
being oWned. Under the name of justices and morality
they must take mrs that they did no injustice to any indivi-

OOULBURN said he did not intend to offer any ap-
position to the sewed reading of this bill, bat there were
saw points which required the serious consideration of the
Imre. The hen. member who introduced the measure had
rather addressed himself to assewering objectless which bad
been urged wont it than to stating reasons in its favour ;
but ea the bill was altogether diarist hoes that of last
sasidaa, he (Mr. Citealbarn) was of opinion that the hon.
seethes= Mould have stated soma cogent !MOW for its
asp** by that house. The hon. member's
at YariSne• with its provisions, for he add that
be maned it to persona having privilege of pm
limiest, but it was confined to members of the llama
eL Ososeas. In former times the privileges of parliament
extended far beyond what they were et mend. There
was the privilege of not beim! sued in any court, which It
was baud fermary to abolish, and a bill was introduced
roadseissr a cosaasosars equally suable. Under dia
@Waft of Ina. 111. sad Geo. 111. the dimiautiou of lho
was applied equally to members of both losaahos
So was quite ready to admit that

of the

the circumstances which ogiginally led to the general
exemption of members of the two houses of parlia-
ment from arrest, had become altered by the state of
the law. When persons were unstable on mane proems,
there was a ready mode of preventing the attendance of any
member in his place in parliament by swearing to the debt,
to answer for the action, and that power might be
and confining hint foe a limited time until he obtained se-
cusuerdYto prevent the attendance of members, an .l wiiht be-
come a political engine for carrying measuresin the bones •
ll a particular party. The abolition of arrest on mi sae yireta
cos therefore materially diminished the bad effect that
might have resulted from the existence of the pd.
vßege, and arrest was now limited merely to came
where judgment had been obtained against the
debtor. Although it was extremely desirable that they
should preserve the character of the house bi list allowing
an insolvent debtor to be free from the general provisions of
the kw which applied to other insolvent debtors, yet he con-
fessed himself extremely averse to malaria a parttralse pro-
vision for members of parliament in a particular situation,
and if they were to legislate he would much rather that
legislation were directed to place members of parliament in
the situation in which other members were placed, than to •
make a particular provision as to them. There was
this advantage in dealing with the question as a matter of
resolution of the house rather than by act of parliament, that
if they passed an act of parliament, and they found by the
provisions of the act that their measure inter frred with the
peeper discharge of the duties which were owir g to the ()omit ey
by a member of parliament, they had no power of altering it
without the interference of the other branch of the lnisla-
tura ; wherear, if the matter were left to the discretion of the
house. and they found any evils arising, they might make a
modification of their resolution so as to meet those evils.

Mr. J. WILLIAMS hoped the government would pee► the
bill, end extend the principle to the other house of par-
liament.

Mr. HENLEY was anxious that the second reeding should
be postponed, that sews tine might be given for considera-
tion before the home aniented to the principle on which the
bill proceeded.

Oa Me question that the bill be new read a second time,
Mr. OREENE suggested whether it might not te desirable
to refer the whole subject to a select committee, for them to
report upon it.

Mr. EWART hoped that the hon. member who had in-
troduced the bill would not consent to the proposal of the
hoe. ember for Lancaster, sad rotor it to a eciasnitto• up
aldla} Irsvesdpilea sea war draseaded h; the gsti
to raspt ft • 'Um :erasable "pretion that
should he postponed ; but not that it ebould be refined to a
committee up stain.
Mr. MILES hoped that the right hon. baronet would in-
troduce the amendments 110850 time before the bill sass into
discussion. lle could not conceive that it was the intrados
of sovernmeat to per a hill of this kind as it stood at pro.
sent.

Sir G. GREY mid that the amendments would be intro-
duced before the discussion on the bill.
Mr. MOFFATT objected to .ending the bill no to • com-
mittee, but he did not object to postpone it till this day
[armlet.

The second reading was then postponed till this day
fortnigtit.

NAVIGATION LAWS.
The order of the day fur the eommitee on the navigation
laws having been read, on the question that the Speaker do
leave the Chair,

Mr. GLADSTONE said—l am sorry to interpose for a
few moments between the house and the discussion which is
mein on, and I do so only for the purpose of putting a
question to the right hon. gentleman apposite, or the noble
lard at the head of the government, on a matter which I
take to involve a principle of the highest public importance,
or I should not trespiss on the house. I make no other
stets meat than is necessary.
The SPEAKER.—Does it relate to the Navigation Laws?
Mr. OL&DSTONE.—It does, and I will make no other
statement than is absolutely naosasery to make the question
intelligible. It arises out of • spleen reported its the Morn-
ing Pool, to which my attention has been called within the
last two or three days, and which purports to have been de-
livered by the hon, gentleman opposite (Mr. Baines), a more
manly and straighuorward speech than which was never
spoken, in which the boa. gentleman explains himself to his
constituents on the subject of the Navigation Laws. The
hon. gentleman is reported, in the Morning Turn of the Bth
February, to have used these words
Then there was the subject of the navigation laws (Rear.) It
la perfectly well known that ministers Weekend a measure with re.
spent to that hill, against which I voted. I divided against ministers
in every stage of that bill. I thought it my dug to do so, and al.
though I differ from many of my constituents on thi• point—gentle.
men of very great intelligence—who think that the mitigation laws
ought to be repealed, yet I must say I am not satisfied that they
ought tabs repealed. On the contrary, lam of opitatun that the prin.
ciple of the navigation taws ought not to be repeated. Phis being so,
I voted accordingly, and opposed ministers in every stage.
And it appears on referents* to the division lists, that the
hon. gentleman did oppose ministtrs in ene of the divisions
which took place as to the question of time, mid on the
only division as to the merits of the measure. The ques-
tion I hay* to put is, whether the measure which was
recommended from the throne by her Majesty, and which is
today to be introduced by the hon. gentlemen the president
of the board of trade, will have the support of th, as members
of this house who hold office under the crown ?

Lird J. RUSSELL—In answer to the right hon. Renee-
man, I will state the facts as they have occurred. Tne hon.
gentleman now at the head of the poor law b 'ard was
offered by me, in the name of her Majesty, the Mike which
he now holds. He declined to take it. Ha said that he
should he ready to take the office, bet that he mull&
not do so, if he were not to be at liberty to op-
pose the repeal of the navigation laws, his opinion
being against that repeal, and he Laving already
voted in conformity with that opinion. (Hear, hear.)
.1
as answer to him w, that I considered his services of s
Importance that I should not in any way interfer, with the
free exercise of his opinion and his vote on the subject
—(hear, hear)—understanding from him, as I did, that
upon every other subject he agreed with the views that her
Majesty's governmeut entertained. The cue is now stated
with regard to the ;right hon. gentleman ; with regard to
other members who voted for the repeal of the navigation
laws ; it does not apply to any other member cf the house.

The house then went into committee, Mr. B•rual in the
chair.

Mr. LABOUCHERE commenced by stating that he re-
joiced to be able at such an early period of the session, to
draw the attention of the house to the navigation laws. He
trusted that the time devoted on previous occasions to the dis-
mal= of this subject had not been lost, end he was glad that
the company and the colonies had lied the opportunity, in
the interval between this and last year, to consider a ques-
tion of seek magnitude as the one under consideration.
The hon. member then went on to say : Sir, with
regard ta one great branch of the nargstioo laws
mean that which regulates the meeting trade and
fisheries of the country—l did not propose in the,
measure of hat year, with the exception of a
modification in the laws that relate to the fish.riee, to which
it is not necessary that I should more particularly advert,
INN de I propose at present, to make any alteration. I stated
at the time to the house that I considered cur navigation laws
to rest on three fundamental priocipl.e. The first is
that, the object of which is to secure to this country the
monopoly of the colonial trade. The next of these principles
is that branch of the navigation laws which attemys to se-
cure the " long voyage trade." The third, that which en-
deavours to secure to this country the can ing and direct
European trade. Sir, with regard to the first of these ques-
tions, I mean the restrictions which are now placed on the
colonial trade, I then stated to the house, and I repeat the
statement on the present occasion, that it did appear to me
that after the pokey which this house had adopted with
regard to depriving the produce of our colonies of
protection in the markets of tide country, be that
policy right or wrong, considering that in practice
actually, and in great part, the protection which here-
tofore the produce of our colonies enjoyed in the markets
of the mother country has beta withdrawn, end that on
principle we must !oak forward to whatever remains of pro-
tection being gradually, finally, and absolut-ly withdrawn—
under these circumstances, it appeared to me the height a
injustice to refuse to our colonies the abolition of
those restrictions upon their navigation, of which, at all pe-
riods of our colonial history, they have grievously com-
plained, but under present circumstances, at the time we tell
them we think it not for their benefit, or oar benefit, that
, protection is to be maintained in our markets, it would be the
height of injustice were we to maintain these navigation restric-
tions upon their trade—injustice which I have no hesitation
in saying is absolutely incompatible with the protracted and
long-continued connexion between the most important of ear
colonies and the mother country. These were the arguments
which' ventured to make in much greater detail than I shall
de =the presentoccasioatothe house during the last session of
parliament. I produced complaints from Canada; I pro-
duced complaints from the West Indies ; I produced Lord
Harris telling the government what advantage would be de-
rived from the most important colony of Trinidad being al-
lowed to trade direct with Franco and Spain. These were
the circumstances which I stated during the last session, and
of which I beg to remind the house on the present occasion;
and I ask wletker, as the colonial empire develops ft-
mil, as New Zealand and Australia become flourishing sad
mercantile communities, it is to be tunas= that these commu-
nities of Englishmen will net satisfied with restrictions of this
description ? and is it not part of true wisdom, in time, before
exasperation prevail; before irritation has grown up, to look
forward and plane this gaieties upon a footing that we can
justly maintain with regard to the claims and complaints of
our colonists ? The interval which has elapsed since this mea-
sure was discussed in the house, has only brought additional
proof of the sentiments of the colonists on this subject. I
hope the attention of members of the committee has been
given to those important documents which have lately been
held on the table of the houses, particularly relating to the
colony of Canada, and which illustrate in the Women
manner, the evils which that colony feels from the restrictions
imposed on her by oar navigation laws-the strong grounds
that are stated by her inhabitants with almost unanimous
voice, for her removing them as speedily as possible, and
the continued opinion of Lord Elgin of the extreme im-
portance that we mod, without delay, and as speedily as
potable remedy the grievances which press to heavily on
CensAli her revenue, and trade. There Is one locument to
which would more particularly call the attention of the
hones. It is a statement, net made by any mere theoretical
inquiries into this subject, but it is a statement of the most
=Being_ description transmitted to -
Lord Elgin, who especially tells
government to it. It is • statement
gentlemen wheal he describes, some of ti
sad intailigeat merchants in the city of
formed him of the difficulties which, in
trade, they had practically experienced
tolso isn trek with what they called
by which they meant that geew armada the great lakes
Unit= States, and our own colonial
attention of Lord Elgin tO this point,

I to this house by
aills the attention et°
iment raids to his
of
ti
in th4thMe conlhct e
;rid when they • •••• •••• ••,.‘e7
led the far west of • • Tee.
great sad growi . • ; 7, 4.
re and territories 4
6terriaadterythey.
maTtehey. •
4.1,7
""- It. 4j CA