The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

ROUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY, MARCH 5.
The Bramtaa toot the chair at four o'clock.

Tikco?ip

--11;an—aalTie;age---Clianakal more Company

'Net and Thearr k.,Cambrl.rtge,

St. Neot'a, and Bedford Junction Railway ; East Linerrildre
(Clitheroe, Mitton, and Psalm) Brady); Edinburgh and Nortbern
Railway Cit. Andrew's and Ziwirtmegh Barbour, Dmalass, and Bad
Crowing% Newport Railway Ealiminn) ; Oran Kordieric Railway
(Branch to llorncestie and at Raylhadlioww, Linda) ; London imil
North Western Railway (Lhaestroot, !Wks Boa ion,
&c.) ; London and North Wain isilwary alscas sod Wolver-
hampton Branch, U.); Nosiondin and Bernie Lawry (nmillng-
tonand Percy Main, and aid Ohm Ormalkas ; Taw Vak
Railway and Dock; York and amadis DNB
and Railway, and Great North aflisgWACkaiman, End BrtLMA
Junction Railway. Lame, and Pomba*i Nwasulla and ilarwYk
Railway (Cramlington and Paw Ilia mil 1:1111awwwlk awl Mbar
branches) ; York and Neaten*, Railway (Awl Desk awl
way and Great North of England, Clarenna, wid Zarespad honcho
Railway lame and purchase Bala
REPORT.—Birmingham District Fire Isanwlas Camay BBL
PUBLIC BURNIE&
FIWIT READlNG.—lnearimos as Livia

d 1 arlLasaßilk.
THIRD REAI2!NO._.-Psal NIL

NOTICE OP MOTlON.—eras

0. Bre

Town, on Monday next, to moot it realm ben lber dolt= and
&poky daimon of Spank& ilowild.ineiter twelnteree of
the berebeitaikinkies frisk as erf
newt to a We cd upwards at meaty Mewl to be
doe wbcdy to Bridal edeeste.

and physical mischief to the soldier. The system
was, to let the canteens for terms of three m2%1
by tender, and the highest bidder, of course, wet
selected. The successful bidder then sought to reim-
burse himself by exorbitant charges for everything fm,„`
Milled to the soldier. Bread, cheese, and spirits were both.
dear and bad, but the officers would bike no steps to re-
duce the price of the former, as they said that the mare•
there was paid for bread and cheese, the less would be left
for spirits. His object in bringing forward the motion was.
to have the sole of spirits altosether excluded from the tan.
teen. (Hear.) The facility with which spirits were at
present obtained led to the greatest excesses, and cum-
quently to the heaviest punishments among the soldiers.
The motion having been put, •
Mr. F MAULS would not attempt to defend the pre-
, sent system as to barrack c interns, but the remedy propceed
by the resolution of the hon. and gallant member could not
very easily be carried out by a (Bennet vote of the House of
Commons. It would, however, be pleasing to the hon. and
gallant member to learn—and he hoped it would induce him
to withdraw his motion—that the attention of the authorities
had been already drawn to this subject, and that they were
at this moment considering h or they could place the can.
teens on an improved footing, so as to form a part of that,
general amelioration in the condition of the soldier, which
both the authorities at the Horse Guards and the govern-
ment had seriously at heart. ( Hear, hear.) It must not be
forgotten, however, that canteens though attended with con-
siderable inconveniences when put to improper uses, were of
great advantage to the soldier in barracks. There were
many articles to be obtained in them which the soldier re-
quired, and which it might be often most objectionable to
permit him to go outside for. And, with regard to the sale
of spirits, the canteen was always so entirely under the con-
trol of the commanding officer, that if he exerted his autho-
rity with common vigilance, the majority of the abuses to
which the hon. and gallant member had referred might be
avoided. - - . . .

Sir H. DOUGLAS was glad to hear that the government
had determined to place the canteen system on a better
footing.
Mr. GOULBURN hoped, after the gratifying statement
of the Secretary-at-War, that the hon. and gallant officer
would withdraw his motion. He concurred with his hon.
and gallant friend as to the injurious effect of the very lag
system under which these canteens were now r. panted.
Col. ANSON was convinced if any means could be pointed
out of ameliorating the condition of the soldier, by improving
the canteens, government would give their beet attention is
furtherance of that object.
Sir DE L. EVANS remarked that if the commanding
officers had such authority over canteens, they did not ap-
pear to know it, or there must be acme difficulty in excrete-
mg it.
The Earl of ARUNDEL and Mr. WORTLEY thanked
the gallant colonel for bringing the subject under the atten-
tion of the house.
Motion by leave withdrawn.
TILLAGE OF LAND IN IRELAND. _

On the order of the day for going into a committee of
sutrtly.:, O'CONNELL rose, pursuant to notice, to draw the
attention of the house to the advisability of employing the
labouring population now engag. d on the public works in
Ireland, in the tillage of land. According to the last weekly
amount, there were 700,000 persons so employed. For that,
the government were entitled to the best thanks of evilly
humane person ; but the question wee whether it would not
be better to turn the labour than expended to the cultivation
of the land, which was being neglected to a serious extent in
many parts of Ireland. Considering the well-grounded ea-
ticipation of an unexampled scarcity in every country in
Europe; looking to the statement of the Agricultural
Gazette, that it was • great mistake to suppose .
that there remained in the hands of farmers or food mer-
chante any considerable quantity of corn; seeing. too, that
Professor
Lindley strongly urges in the Gardener's Chro-
nicle that there is no time to be lost in devising means for
keeping up the cultivation of the two countries ; and that
the grand jury of Longford and other bodies in Ireland had
expremed a similar opinion,—he dad think that the govern-
ment would be justified in adopting that course, particularly
as they could do so without establishing any new machinery,
having only to apply the provisions of the Labour-rate Act
to the employment of the people on the land, instead of on
the public roads—to be peel ptrtly by the government, and
partly by the relief committees. His suggestions to the
government were these : that they should furnish seed to a
much larger extent than they had announced their intention
of doing, to be charged in the K) way, partly on the
government finances, and partly on the county-rates ; that
they should draw the people, without changing the present
machinery, from t he public works to the tillage of land , and that
in case of presentments that had just been made, the persons
to be employed under them should be at once put to till the
land. His next suggestion was that something
should at once be done to make pews between
the landlord and tenant, so as to WITIOVe from the tenant the
excuse to which he now resorted for refusing to till the lend
—namely, that it would be so much labour thrown away at
a moment of great distress, for that the landlord would
in that case insist upon the payment of his rent,
thus absorb all the profits of cultivation, and
leave the tenant as poor as he was before. His last
suggestion was, that something ought and must be done to
compel, by resolution or otherwise, the Irish absentee pro-
prietors to reside upon their estates at least for this year, and
discharge those duties which they bad so long neglected.
This would insure to Ireland an additional expenditure of
about 3,000,0001. or more.
Mr. LABOUCHEHE was not at all surprised that the hon.
gentleman should avail himself of the forms of the house to
bring the calamitous condition at Ireland under their notice.
Upon the definite proposals which he had just made, he
(Mr. Labouchere) conceived it to be the duty of the govern. '
ment to express distinctly their opinion, as doubtful and am-
biguous language might only lead to mi.conception. He
must therefore say, he not only considered it not to he the
duty of the government to act upon the suggestions of the
hon. gentlemen, but that it would not be possible or practi-
cable to do so. The government, in their endeavour to
meet the existing calamity, hod adopted a most unusual
course—a courseutterly unjustifiable under any other circum-
stances. Following in the steps of their predecessors, thef.
had employed a great body of people—a task w
was altogether out of the functions of a government, and
which no government could attempt to carry out without
giving rise to great evils and abuses. They had since substi-
tuted another system for that of the public works which they
considered the best calculated to meet the existing evil—a
system which would enable them to supply not labour but food
toa great number of destitute poor in Ireland. But the hon.
gentleman asked the government to go further, end, by their
direct interference, to cultivate the soil. He would frankly
and candidly state that he thought it was imposaible to do
so, and the attempt would only lead to failure, would have
the effect of paralysing the exertions of individuals, and in
the end great mischief would be done. lie thought the most
frank and faureouree was to say to his hon. friend that he (Mr.
Labouchere) on the part of the government positively da-
d
ined a duty which he conceived to be beyond their func-
tions, and the attempt to do which would be attended with
mischief. He would say the same thing with regard to the
providing of need. The government could not attempt to
supply grain-need, and any profession of ma a
purpose on the part of the government would eely tint
to cripple individual exertion. Even on the sage*
of what had been done, limited as it was in eatest,
geed for green crops he had received estmeolgeeniS
letters from seedamen who had laid is Imp sticky sod nig •
complained that it was not right that government BMW -
enter into competition with them, pirticularly as large soon.
tines had been accumulated in different towns in Ireland,
sod which showed him what it was in the power of indi- •
vidual exertion to perform as compared with anything that
the government could do. With regard to the cultivation of '
the land, he admitted that it was imposeible to over-rate its
importance; and he felt that every effort should be made to
prepare the soil for the mailing crop. In many parte of Ire-
land the greatest exertions were being made by proprieties
to enable their tenants to do so. He regretted, however, to
say that, from information he had received, he was obliged to
my that there were parts of the country where that duty
was sadly neglected. He knew well the crippled media=
in which many of the Irish proprietors were placed, and that
it was in vain to ask them to d what was impossible. He
could, therefore, only say, that be hoped that these who
WIT, in a position which enabled them, would do all in
their power to moist their poorer neighbours in carrying out
this most important object. lie would read an extract
from a report which he had received, which was an exem-
plification of the manner in which the checking of the
public works acted in producing the cultivation of the sail.
It was from Major FitsgerWil, one of the inspectors
In the county of Clare, and it was for the week' cad*,
Feb. 28, 1847. It mated in effect, " that for the first time
he was able to report that this week tillage was proireethed.,
in his district. Workmen had left the roads, and were sow-
ing wheat and oats. In order to aid this salutary move-
ment, he had struck 1,200 names off the relief list this week,To
and he should get rid of more in the next." With regard to
the question of absenteeism, he (Mr. Labouchere) would
assure his hon. friend that he did not feel more on the sub-
ject than he did. No doubt there were many absent pro-
prietors who had done their duty to their Irish property and
the people at the present crisis, but at the same time it
could not be compared to the benefit which would arise frem
the residence of a proprietor, who, knowing the people, and
being known by them, was able greatly to encourage them
by his example. He was, however, assured that many ab-
sentees had sadly neglected: their duty. He knew=
inseams in which the resident proprietors had came it
and devotedtheir time and money to the relief of distress, who
had the mortiflostion to know that property was held in the
same district by those who never came near it, and who had re-
fused to contribute anything to the relief of the people. He
condemned this as much as any one, and he agreed with the
hon. gentleman that the proper place for an Irish landlord
was Ireland. (Hear.) If a tense of duty and a mind fat
public opinion did not make them feel this, he feared a reso-
lution of the house would have little effect. The govern-
ment hod a measure prepared to improve the relations of
landlord and tenant, and 'although he did not anticipate that it
would go the length of the motion of his hon. friend the
member for Kilkenny, it had not escaped attention. He
had heard that in many parts of Ireland the proprietors hid
voluntarily agreed to advance need for the cultivation of
small holdings, the tenants giving them a lien on
the nest year's crops. This, he thought, was an
admirable arrangement, and he hoped would be et-
tensively adopted. It would be better not to meddle
with this gaieties by law, but to leave it to voluntary
arraesement, widget, as it was for the common interest of
both oche, be hoped would be extensively adopted. He
meild net egne te ale motion of his hon. friend, or think that
Wgovernment Gould interfere on these questions with
actirantave.
Mr. F. NEVI said if the Board of Works had difficul-
ties to embed willbelbre what would they have if they bed
the coning ea lie teems in Ireland. He believed the
arum reemeniendei by the hon. gentlemen would only
passim individual suction. The Same might he said With

regard to the sapply of seed—and if Elie rem urn adopted
it would only nose expectations which could never be rea-
lised.
Mr. BELLEW could not concur in the proposition of his
boo, friend, tor no did not believe it to be practicable ; and
if it was practicable it was not desirable.
IITZOEktALD wished that the labour should be
transferred from the public works to tillage, nor did he see
that there wore say great difficulties in the way.
Lord J. RUSSELL rid he had not wiehed to add anything
to the remarks which had been gathered to the house by his
right boa. friend the Secretary for Ireland, but as the govern-
ment bed been spin urged to consider the propositions made
by the hon. member for Kilkenny, it infinite* him (Lord J.
i(ugeell) to declare !gain the opinion and dreerfaistion of
the goverumeut on that subject. A hope bad bean expressed
that the government would interfere with the cultivation
and Waage of the lauds of Ireland, and it had been said that
at this was the proper season for sowing the land, no time
ought to be lost; and, at the same time that this was
urged, a somewhat strong warning had been given to the
government ag ai d
nst the adoption of that course, by the state-
ment which ha been made as the effect produced by the
declaration he (Lord J. Russell) had made some time ago,
that 50,000 J. should be given for the purchase of seed. He
(Lord J. Russell) had hoped that the small amount of that
son, which, as the uuble lord the member for Lynn had said
would not buy more than 2.5,000 quarters, would prevent
any extravagant hopes being raised ; but they were now told
that the tartness of Ireland had consumed their own seed in
the expectation toot they would be furnished with seed by
the government, and hence great mischief had been pus
dined. If so, what would be the effect of a declaration that
the government would undertake the tillage and
sowing of the land in Ireland? (Hear, hear.)
Would there u:t be an immediate stop put to all
private euterprize —would not the 11,000 officers now em-
ployed in superintending public works, have to be multi-
plied tee times, to enable so gigantic au operation to be car-
ried on? lie, therefore, thought it necessary again to declare
that the guverument did not intend to undertake the culti-
vation, tillage, and sowing of the lands in Ireland. (Hear,
hear.) The government lameuted very much that in cer-
tain districts tillage had not been proceeded with, but he
had still hopes that it would be found to have been more
general than was expected, and the only ground upon which
ke founded these hopes was, the well understood determina-
tion of the goverumeat not to interfere in that respect. lie
would not now enter upon the other topics which had been
urged, but musical the hour would now proceed to the busi-
ness of the evening. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. O. A. HAMILTON concurred entirely in the views
expressed by the noble lord at the head of government, and
by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, on
the subject of the ieexpediency of the government undertak-
ing the tillage of the land.
Mr. B. EoCOTT said, the more be listened to these pain-
ful dietitians:di on this most distressing calamity, the more he
was inclined to make up his mind to the conclusion that
these measures would do more harm then good, and that
there were only two things which would really benefit the
country. Tie hest was, the-giving every facility for
the importation of food from all parts of the world ; and
the- second, was the exercise by all classes in the nom-
enmity of the greatest economy in the use of that food.
Mr. RICE said there was a point in which the govern-
ment of this country would do well to emulate the
example of France —he alluded to the improvements
of the deep water harbours of the coast.
The order of the day was then read, and the hour re-
greed itself into a committee of supply on
THE ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Colonel ANSON said it was now his duty to bring under
the notise of the house the ordnance estimates fur the ser-
vice of the ensuing year, and he trusted that any hun. member
who had objections to any of the items, would make those
objections, and enable him to prove satisfactorily that these
estimates had not been prepared without due con-
sideration and regard both to economy and to the efficiency
of the service. (Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to
state the different votes required for the respective services
belonging to this department. The gross estimate fur the
ensuing year was 2,679,1271. The estimate for the year
1846-7 was 2,643,6691., showing this year an increase of
135,568/. Now he must call the attention of hon. members
to a note in the abstract of the present estimate, showing •
considerable reduction heel been made in three different
votes in consequence of the new arrangement entered into,
of only young for the service of the year the sum
actually to be paid within the year. Phis arrange-
ment had been fully and clearly explained on
a former evening by his right hon. friend the Secretary at
War, and he (Cul. Anson) did not suppose any hon. member
would disapprove of a principle which brought the public
accounts into • more accurate position than under the tornier
system wee possible. In three items in the first page there
were reductions of this kind made to the amount of 67,2991.
This amount he conceived he bad • rignt to deduct from the
amount of increase be had stated, and that leR an actual
increase uponthe estimates of last year of 68,2291.
He now came to the first vote which he should
ask the committee to pass it was for the
Pols allowances, and contingencies of the ordnance
military corps, and amounted to 617,2391 , being an
increase of 41,6691, upon the vote fur the year 181647, which
was 676,6701. In this vote there was included under one
head three services—viz., the Royal Engineers, the Sappers
and Miners, and the Royal Artillery. In the tint of these
corps, the engin. en, there appeared to be an increase from
last year of 6,9781., and this increase did not arise from any
increase to the establishment, but from the additional em-
ployment of the officers. It was unnecessary for him to
state that whenever these officers had been called
upon to undertake public duties, their efficiency had
been of such a character that, notwithstanding the expense,
the public had been fully compensated by the great know-
ledge, ability and experience displayed. (Hear, hear.) It
was generally known how eagerly the assistance of these
officers was sought for in marten to which their high profei-
Sonal qualities could be applied, and he felt confident that
no individual, in er out of the house, would grudge them the
emoluments to which their labours entitled them. (Hear,
bear.) From this heed, he named to the Ron' Sappers and
Miners, upon whom he might my the same. For them there
was no increase in the estimate, and, therefore, he proceeded
to the Royal Artillery. The sum voted for the Royal Artil-
lery last year was 387,0001., and upon it there was this year
aa increase of between 30,0001. and 40,0001. His noble
friendt the Master-General of the Ordnance, had thought
it advisable to add to the number of this force, and the
government had not hesitated to comply with his re-
commendation that L'AO men should be raised for
that purpose. This was now in progress ; the corps was now
recruiting, and found no &Rini'', in getting recruits of a
superior description to any that had ever yet entered the
service. (Hear, hear.) In Order to carry out the proposition
as economically as possible, the increase of men would only
be as follows .—Last year there were 8,222 men, and this
sear it was proposed to increase the number to 9,430. He
did not think that this increase would be thought extrava-
gant, when it was considered what were the various duties
=poen' on that force at home and in the colonies. Indeed,
be thought it was matter of astonishment that so small a
force was able to meet the exigencies of the service. How-
ever, they had done so efficiently, but it must be borne In
mind, that as it had been thong .t necessary to add to the
fortificatioos of the seaports, those fortifications must he
manned, and therefore the larger force was called fur. The se-
eond vote was for the commissariat and barrack supplies forher
Majesty's forces. great-coats for the army, and clothing for
the colonial sops. Last year the vote was 340,9811. ; this
year it amounted to 370,4641., being an increase of 29,4831.
This increase could be very easily accounted for, inasmuch
as it arose in part from the increased price of forage for the
cavalry. Last year the rations in Ireland had been 3d. per
head, and in England 14d. per head, and hence the increase.
In the item of great coats and clothing for the
colonial corps there was this year a great dimi-
nution, became the supply was not this year required, end
this diminution made the actual increase of this vote only
10,2071. He now came to the third vote, which was for the
salaries, allowances, and contingencies of the officers of the
establishments in Pall-mall and the Tower. Upon this vote
he did not think it necessary to make any observation. He
knew it had been objected that these establishments were
too liberally supplied with clerks, but, from hie own experi-
ence, he could state that such was not the case. There was
no mere efficient body of public officers, and in this vote
there was only an increase of 15001.,whichanne from the sub-
stitution of the police for the old watchmen at the Tower.
The next vote was for the salaries, allowances, and con-
tingencies of the establishments in the United Kingdom and
the colonies. In this vote there emu an apparent increase of
6,1051. ; but it would be found that he had to take credit
for 7,1291., which was voted, but not paid, lest year, and
therefore there was an actual diminution on this head of
expenditure of 2,0241. The next vote was for the wages of
labourers and ariifieers employed in the United Kingdom and
the colonies, and it amounted-to 137,852. lest year the vote
was 125,3921., so that this year there was an increase 0(12,4601.
This increase was caused by the large addition made to the
number of the artificer, and labourer employed in the
Arsenal, which was absolutely rewired in the laboratory at
Woolwich, and in the carriage department, which was
rather defective. This addition would enable a supply to be
made to answer any emergency that might occur. lie now
name to the sixth vote, which was for the ordnance stores
for land and sea eertice. For this the government asked for
the year 1847-43 the sum of 368,7121. ; last year the vote
was 392,1841. ; being a decrease for the year of 21,4721.
This included a sum of 120,0001. for the alteration of the
small arras of the army, which was now nearly
completed, and with the exception of two or three
regiments now coming borne from abroad, the army
was now entirely equipped with pereuoion muskets.
The next vote, No. 7, was the important one for works
and repair, at home and abroad. The amount he asked
under this head was 632,7661., being 27,7791. more than the
same vote last year, but the addition had been rendered
essential by the general feeling, fully shared by the govern-
ment, that although happily no danger actually corset-
ened our shores, it was the best policy and the truest eco-
nomy to place our fortification.. and our ports in a fit state to
Meet any emergency that might arise. In former vote., a
large sum had been taken for such works in our colonies;
be the present vote • certain sum would certainly
applied to the improvement and extension of '
our fortification, abroad : but the main amount
would be expended at home. The next vote was 60,0001. for
the scientific branch, for the ordnance surveys in England,
Scotland, sad Ireland. He was aware that the people of
Scotland had complained that of the similar sum voted last
year for this service &entail amount only bad been expended
" the surety of B:meland ; the reason of this was, that it
had been deemed «t • et vise e to employ earnest the entire force
of the limited establishment engaged on them surveys in
advancing the survey of Ireland, and he was happy
_ state, that the survey of that country was
het altacet completed. The money, however, voted
tor the survey of Scotland but not applied to that
g;iTaa PrPelet had not been expended in any other way,
Est for mu Wormed to the treasury. The lost vote, N 0.9,
sari airy swims, military sad civil, 168,6321,1

being an Inseam of 48,0711. ever the similar vote of last
par. The latter vote, indeed, had been 164.7761., but one
quarter (41,1941.) was deducted, as not being required
for payment within the year. Tke hoes. and gallant gentle-
man, in cosseltudon, observed that before any geatlernan
animadverted upon the apparent increase in this year's
votes, not merely over three of last year, but mate-
rially so over those of some years ago, he must
reflect that within the last few years, many services
had been transferred from other departments, or originally
added to this department, the expenditure of which was thus
greatly augmented. For instanoe, the charge of the com-
missariat and barrack department had, lime 1835-6, been
thrown upon this department, an item which alone added
370,0001. to its expenditure. There was, again, the charge
for works, repairs, and buildings, which the Ordnance had
now to meet, and which amounted to the am of 678.7741.
There were sixteen new establishments to maintain at Biz-
mingluun, Pembroke, Cape Town, Hobart Town, Toronto,
Hong-Kong, ite., involving an additional charge of 370,0001.
In poet of fact, had the Ordnance department only ta bear
the charge of those services which were comprehended in it
in Jan., 1833-4, the votes asked for by it would, instead of
being augmented, have diminished. The him. and gallant
gentleman then moved that a sum of 617,2391. be granted
for the pay, allowance', and contingencies of the Ordnance
Military Corps.
Mr. WILLIAMS denounced the votes asked for as most
exorbitant and most uncalled for.

Sir H. DOUGLAS denied that the °out defences bad
been negleetfd.

-------.
Mr. GOULBURN defended the lets Admiralty Board
from the charge of having wasted the public money in useleie
experiments.
Col. ANSON disclaimed any intention of casting any
blame on the late Board of Admiralty.
Dr. BOWRING complained that, under the head No. 7,
there wu a great increase in the Ordnance estimates.
After some further observations, the vote was agreed to.
The following sums were also voted :
617,2391. tor the pay of the Ordnance Military Corps.
370 4641. for Commissariat and Barrack Supplies.
96,4441. for Salaries, &c., in Ordnance offices.
228,1301. for Expenses of Establishments in the United
Kingdom and Colonies.
137,83 V. for the Wages of Artificers, &c.
368,7121. for Stores.
632,7631, for Works, Buildings, and Repairs.
58• 9881 for the Scientific Branch of the Department.

On this vote,
Capt. PECHELL wished to know whether there was any
truth in the report which had appeared in the Times, as to
the state of the Military Academy at Woolwich, and that a
high wall had been erected to prevent the cadets from getting
out after dark? _

Col. ANSON said, the committeeappointed to inquire into
the state of the aeadesny had not yet made their report. He
must, however, caution his hon. and gallant frient against
placing implicit reliance upon every statement which might
appear in newspapers. (A laugh.) So far from a high well
having been erected to prevent the students getting out he
believed it wu merely a psli•adiog which had beets put up
to prevent improper person. from getting in.
The vote wu agreed to.
168,5321. for aon•efsetive services, military and civil, was
also voted.