The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-07 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 7, Ma

mesas of any bribe, or in any other way, contrary to the
orders of the house. As the matter stood at present, it
Should be dilleult to ma} whether a breach of ths.frieilegee
of the house had been committed or not (Hess, hear.)
Mr. MITCHELL gave notice to molts, on Monday meat,
for a committee of inquiry into the facts stated.
DUTY ON CLOVER AND OTHER SEEDS.
• Sir J. SHELLEY-said he wished to mak a question of the
Chintellor of The Exchequer, which was of great interest to
agric.,lturiste,; himself smogs the number—(laughter)—
whether farmers might hope that the duties on clover and
other seeds would be shortly remitted, so as to carry out
the principles of free trade? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILSON was quite willing to admit that the hon.
member had • right to make this appeal on the principles
of free trade. (Hear, hear.) They had had several reps..
sentatioos on the subject, urging that the duty ought to be
taken off; the matter was under the consideration of the
government, and be alight to state distinctly, that the only
meth why they hesitated at all was on account of the
amount which the duty at present yielded, and not as to
whether it ought to be taken off or aot. (Hear, hear.)
CROWN RIGHTS IN RUABON.

Mr. WHALLEY asked if any further steps had been
taken in the proposed sale of crown rights in Ituabon sines
the return of papers ordered by the house.
Mr. WILSON said the question wu one between Sir
Watkin Wynne, the lord of the manor, and the other in-
habitants of Ruaboa. The Treasury had given their eon-
sent to an arrangement some time ago, but nothing had
been done sine*.
WHITSUNTIDE HOLIDAYS.
In answer to Sir J. Titot.Lopz,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that on Friday next it was his
intention to move that the house at its rising should ad-
journ till the Thursday following.
ENNIS ELECTION COMMITTEE.
- -

The SPEAKER acquainted the house that he had re-
(wised notice from the egent of the petitioner against the
return of Mr. Fitzgerald for Ennis, that it wu not in-
tended to proceed with the petition. (Cheers.)
Sir J. TROLLOPE thereupon moved that the committee
just sworn to try the petition should be discharged.
Agreed to.
HARWICH ELECTION.

Mr. HEADLIJiI reported, from the Harwich Election
Committee, that they had come to the conclusion that Mr.
'Peacock. was not duly elected ; but that Mr. Wadding-
ton was duly elected ; and that the election was
• void election, so far as regarded the return of Mr. Pea-
cock.. Also, that Mr. Peacocks had entered into an en-
gagement with John Attwood, Bail., through his solicitor,
in accordance with the terms of which Mr. Peacocks was to
pay • certain sum of money in the event of his return, and
that Mr. Attwood was to endeavour to procure the return
of Mr. Peseocke. (Hear, hear.) That George Jay was
bribed by the payment of a sum of 871. 109., which had
been paid to procure his release from prison ; and that
Adam Price was employed in obtaining the release of Jay ;
that both these parties had abscoaded to avoid appearing
before the committee; but that it was not proved that any
act of bribery was done by Mr. Peacocke or his agents.
COMMISSIONS OF INQUIRY INTO CORRUPT
_ PRACTICES.

In answer to Mr: O. STANLlT—whether the govern-
ment would allow motions for commissions of inquiry to
take precedence on government nights of other motions,
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that he could
not make any positive arraogement; it was desirable that
motions of this kind ahoald be Axed for some day on which
they could certainly come on.
ANNUITIES FOR LIVES AND TEEMS.

Mr. J. B. SMITH asked whether the government bad
suspended the granting of annuities ter lives and for terms
of years ; and Hut, whether the suspension would be perms-
neat or temporary only.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
government had not suspended the granting of annuities
either for lives or terms. As regarded the latter, very few
had been purchased by the public of late years. As to
those for lives, the question might have arisen out of the
fact that, for a certain period before and after quarter-day,
every quarter, the granting of those annuities was sus-
pended. It was only in the regular course of things that
this suspension had recently taken place ; and it had also
been resumed in the regular course of things. Since the
3rd of May, no less than 69 annuities for lives had been
sold.
INCOME TAX ON FARMERS.

co. surlithitl3asi;tiiftAep;;;;;;Fripeal against
the income tax assessment, at present enjoyed by farmers,
would be continued.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
was no intention to withdraw that right of appeal. (Hear.)
CHATHAM ELECTION.

Lord J. RusiiiE;ilatil7tgrnienaed to propose
the adjournment of the Wining of this writ. He should
also propose to bring in a bill:wluch should disqualify persons
in public employment in dockyards from voting in elections
for members of parliament. (Cheers.)
THE CHARGE OF CORRUPTION.—MR. DUFFY'S
EXPLANATION.

any rule of the bouse,ft was entirely' outside of my intention
,to do so. I of course regret having, Is 40, manner,effencicd
against the rules fur the proper conduct j f business here ;
and if r have done so, as it seems to me, on tho authority of
the right hon. member.for Buckinghamshire, a very expe-
rienced member—still, if in the opinion of the house I have
done ste, I regret that I should have fallen into that error.
(Hear, hear.)
After a pause,—no one rising,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said—The hon. member far
New Ross has charged me with interrupting him in such a
mapper an to present him from offering his explanation at
the time, which he is now ready to offer. Now I mast say, •
with respect to that—
Mr. DUFFY.—If the noble lord will pardon me—l did
not say that be had interrupted me ; but I said that after
such an imputation, as that I had made a statement not
one word of which I could prove, I of course could not
withdraw it—(cheers)—that, after an imputation of this
kind, made by a Minister of the crown, I could not think
of ending the matter by simply withdrawing the words
against which that charge was made. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL.—WeII, I was about to state that
the hon. gentleman having alleged in this house that cor-
ruption had been practised upon Irish members in this
house by the present government that exceeded the corrup-
tion of the time of Walpole and the Pelham', and that the
debate having gone on for some time without any explana-
tion of the words used, with respect to what had been done
by the government—if I took any part in that debate, I
think I could do no otherwise, believing that there
was no truth in those imputations, than to deny
them on the part of the government. • (Hear, hear.)
The imputation came not from a member of the govern-
ment but from the hon. member ; and he having made a
g I statement, I made &general denial. I think I could
hardly do otherwise without, by implication at least, con-
fessing that there was some foundation fur the charge of
the hon. gentleman. I certainly understood the charge
made yesterday evening to be very different from that
which he has now stated. To prevent any misunderstanding,
let me say, I do not at all mean to deny that the hon. gen-
tlemen did not mean yesterday evening exactly what he
hesitated to-day. (Hear, hear.) AU I can say is, that
what was conveyed to my mind was that the corruption
practised in the time of Sir Robert Walpole—which every-
body who has read the history of those times knows to have
been a corruption of this kind, that when there was a ques-
tion likely to be closely pressed in this house, either
by a gift of office—(hear, hear,)—or by a gift :of
money—(hear, hear,)—a majority was obtained in favour
of the government. Well, it now appears that the charge
of the hon. gentleman is a charge of a very different de-
scription. (" No, no," from the Opposition.) Does the
hon. gentlemen mean to say that money has been given to
Irish members ? (A voice from the Opposition—" No.")
Well then, it is of a very different description from that
which took place in the time of Sir Robert Walpole.
(Cheers.) What I understand the bon. gentleman now to
say iv, that there at* members of the- government who,
having given certain pledges, having expressed certain
opinions before the great body of the people of Ireland, have
accepted office, and have thereby forfeited those pledges and
gone counter to those opinions. (Hear, hear.) I don't think
I am misrepresenting thei hon. gentleman when I say
that that is his present charge. Now, Ido not know
whether there is any cue of corruption in the time of Sir
Robert Walpole that at all answers to that description;
because there was not at that time questions in dispute
upon which declarations were made of a similar nature to
those which are dismissed in the present doy. (" Oh, oh,"
from the Opposition.) What the hon. gentleman now
states is, that hon. members, flying from their pledges, and
not acting in accordance with the opinions which they have
declared,;have either accepted office or ranged themselves en
the side of the government,and that that is corruption equal
to,if not greater than,that which was practised in the time of
Sir Robert Walpole. I own it does not appear to me that
this kind of imputation is at all of the same character as that
which was made last evening. (Ministerial cheers.) I doubt
very much whether it is of such a nature that it can be
called disorderly. It seems to be matter for argument in
the house or in committee. (Hear, hear.) Those who
either after having accepted office, or without accepting
office, have supported the present government, have, I
think, ample means of defending themselves. (Cheers.)
My belief is, that instead of having acted from any cor-
rupt motives, they have acted in a wa that is highly hon-
ourable to them. (Ministerial cheers. That, I say again,
is matter of opinion—(laughter)—and matter for discus-
sion. lam not in the least afraid, and Ido not think they
have any reason to be afraid, of any amount or length of
discussion that may take place on that subject. But what
has been stated—as perhaps the honourable gentle-
' man may have heard or read, if he has not
made the charge himself—is, that members for Ire-
land, from corrupt motives, have taken op the cause of
the government, have acted with the government, and have
even received sums of money for so doing. (Heart hear.)
That gross charge appears to be now abandoned. I think
it is always Netter not to carry these proceedings further
than may be necessary; and I see nothing as the statement of
the hon. gentleman now stands which should induce the
house to carry the matter any further. (Cheers.) Those
hon. members who justly felt themselves offended last night
will, I think, do well to leave the matter where it is ; and
I feel quite sure that they are not only in ability, but also
in honour and integrity, equal to any competitor. (Minis.
terial cheers.)
Mr. J. BALL said as an hon. member who took an active
part in the discussion last night---
The SPEAKER said there was no question before the
house.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the house should pus to
the orders of the day.
On the question being put,
Mr. J. BALL said he was about to observe that the posi-
tion in which the matter now stood was this. The hon.
member, alluding in the course of his speech, on the pre-
vious evening, to the division of last Monday, asserted that
the majority had been obtained by the grossest corruption :
he now said that his observations applied to some transac-
tions which occurred four months ago.
Mr. DUFFY begged the hon. member's pardon. •
did not connect his statement with the vote of last Monday.
Mr. J. BALL had only to say that, with the statement
which the boa. member had made now, be should be the
lest man to express anything like disagreement. (Hear,
hear.) He assured the hon. member that he entertained
not the slightest feeling of hostility towards him ; and if it
were distinctly understood that his allegation referred to
transactions which took plus four months ago, and net to
the division of last Monday, he should not feel called upon
to continue the discussion. (Cheers.)
WAYS AND MEANS.—THE INCOME TAX.

- -...----
ways--.
The house they went into a committee of and
means.
The CHAIRMAN wee putting the resolution with re-
gard to the income tax, when
Mr. F. FRENCH said the debate ought to be resumed
when it had been interrupted on the previous evening.
The CHAIRMAN not concurring in this view,
Mr. FRENCH begged to remind the committee that
when the debate wee suddenly interrupted on the previous
night, the bon. member for New Ross (Mr. Duffy) was in
peueesion of the house, end contended that he ought to be
allowed to proceed with his speech.
Alter the usual formality with regard to strangers being
seen in the gallery, strangers were ordered to withdraw,
in order that the point raised might be discussed with cloud
doors.
The committee then divided :
For the amendment
Against 2BB-225
On our re-admission to the gallery,
Mr. MOORE wee addressing the committee on the point
of order u to whether the chairman was not bound, accord-
ing to the rules of the house, to call upon the hon. member
for New Ron to resume the debate.

Mr. LABOUCHERE thought that the point of order
should be discussed with the Speaker in the chair. He
should suggest, therefore, that the chairman should report
progress, for the purpose only of ascertaining from the
Speaker the rule of the house on the point of older. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with his right hon. friend,
end thought that the point raised should be discussed with
the Brisker in the chair. Of course, after his opinion bad
bees cliched the house would not object to resume the
001111Millise as ways and means. (Hear.)
The Sinakan then resumed the chair, and lir. Emmaus
ritlentlitisfil3LL, addressing the Speaker, said that a
point of order had been raised in committee on which it was
diewskt desirable te obtain the Speaker's opinion, and as
the he., samalier he Mayo was the member who raised the
point he bed_porhaps better state the cue to the Speaker.
Mr. MOORE laving stated what took place in committee
yesterday, and the interruption of the debate in conse-
quence of the expressions used by the hon. member for New
Ras, said it was his opinion that when the house bad gone
into committee that evening on the subject of the income
tax, the chairman, according to the rules of the house,
ought to have called on the hon. member for New Ross, who
was in possession of the committee when the interruption
was made, to resume the discussion. Instead of doing so,
however, Mr. Booverie put the question, but it was in the
midst of considerable contusion, and a great many members
did cot know what question was put. (Hear, hear.) That,
however, was irrelevant to the point raised by him—that
point being that Mr. Bouverle should have called on the
hon. member for New Ross to resume the discussion, he
being in possession of the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOUVERIE said he might have made a mistake,
but he was only anxious to preserve the rules of the com-
mittee. (Hear, hear.) There was a great crowd nad con-
fusion in the house when the Speaker left the chair. He
did not retollect that he cried ' order," but he read the
previous part of the resolution, and then put the amend-
ment raised by the hon. member for Clonmel. He looked
on both sides of the committee to know if any hon. mem-
ber rose to speak to the question. But no member rose.
He hesitated for some time before he put the question, and
then the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) rose and
asked what the question was. Having stated what the
question was, he rather lingered, expecting that some one
would rise, but no one having dons so, he did net
feel that it was his duty to call on any hon. member to rise
from his seat. (Hear, hear.) He then put the question.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that another question of prac-
tice had arisen from what just occurred. He was sure the
noble lord and the government would admit that it was
much to be regretted that a question so deeply affecting the
Irish people -hould be decided by something like a surprise.
(Hear, hear.) Ile thought that no censure could fall on
Mr. ouverie, who, he was sure, was ouly anxious to do his
duty in the chair ; but he would submit to him and to the
house that it would be desirable to observe the practice
away' followed by the Speaker—never to put a question
till silence and order had been obtained, so that every
hon. member might clearly understand what the question
was. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. IRLNCII said he had 'aeon in the house 0.0 wh le
time, soil be did not understand one-third 9f what Mr.

Bouverie now stated bad taken place. (Hear, hear.) Re
I told the hon. member for New Russ that Mr. Bo:trade
Would call upon him to renew the discussion, and he war
quits unaware that the question had been put till he heard
the " ayes " and " neee." (Hey, hear.)
Several hon. mdmbers rose to address the horse, but there
being loud cries of Chair, chair,"
The SPEAKER said he understood the question put to
him was whether the chairman of committees was bound by
the rules of the house to call by name on the hon. member
for New Roes to resume the debate, he not having risen
from his seat to address the committee. Now, unleu the
• hon. member rose in his place to address the committee,
the chairman was at liberty to put the question. In com-
mittee, it was very. difficult to say who was in possession of
the chair, because in committee a member had the privilege
of speaking more than once. In the house it was different.
Ifs member moved the adjournment of a debate in a formal
manner, he was said to he in possession of the house; but
it was net on that account that the Speaker called on him
to address the house, because if he did not rise to
address the house he was not called upon at
all. And it often happened that the debate was not
resumed by the hon. member who moved the adjournment.
The Speaker did not call on the member merely because he
moved the adjournment, and did not call upon him at all
unless he roes in his place when the question was put. If
the member rose in his place, he was of course entided to
precedence. It therefore depended on the member himself
whether he wished to retain his privilege or not. (Hear.)
Mr. MAHAN said that, whether the question was put
or not made no difference to him. Ile knew the question
when it was put well enough, but be left the house because
be believed the motion of tae hon. member for Clonmel was
not worthy of notice. (Loud laughter, cries of " Hear,
hear," and" Chair.")
The SPEAKER reminded the hon. member that there
was no mules before the house.

Mr. V ANCE moved the adjournment of the debate.
(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He wished to state his opinions to
the committee on the subject of the income tax, which was
of so much more importance to his constituents than to any
others in Ireland, and he knew that there were 20 other
Irish members who were likewise anxious to address the
house. (Laughter.) But he bad no idea that the question
had been put. (Hear.) He wished to say this much in
justice to himself, and to set himself right with his consti-
tuents. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said he never was afraid to express
his opinions. (Hear.) But there was so much noise and
confusion in the committee when the question was put, that
it was impossible for many members to know what was
going on. (Hear.) Ho was oppose 4 to an income tax in
any shape. He could not therefore vote for the govern-
ment, nor for extending the tax to Ireland; but such had
been the conduct of the Irish representatives on this occa-
sion, that be thought they ought to be called on to pay
treble the tax that others paid. (Loud laughter, and cries
of " Hear, hear.")
Sir J. Y. BULLER reminded the house that the house
resumed only fur the purpose of getting the opinion of the
Speaker on the point of order. (Hear, hear.) That having
been done, he thought the committee should now be re-
sumed. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MALIAN said he was going to explain that he did
not vote oa the question because he did not think the
motion was worthy of notice. (Laughter, and cries of
"Chair.")
Mr. LAWLESS rose to order. He did not think the
hon. member was in order in imputing motives to boo.
members who had proposed motions.
The SPEAKER—The bon. gentleman cannot raise a
question in the house which passed in committee ; because
till the committee made a report the house could not know
what had passed. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MALIAN was quite willing—
The SPEAXEa here left the chair, and the hon. member
for Westmeath resumed his seat amidst loud laughter.
The house then went into committee, Mr. BOUVERIE in
the chair, and proceeded to read the income tax resolution,
on which

Mr. MAGIAN rose and said that he wished to avoid say-
ing what he thought—(much laughter)—but the Irish
members were badly treated with respect to this sub-
bect of the income tax. (Hear, hear.) The Irish mem-
rs held a meeting up stairs, at which certain matters of
importance were discussed, and they were informed that if
the government, who were expected to succeed to office,
were in power they would not impose an income tax on
Ireland. (" Hear, hear," andcries of " Name,lname.") That
be thought was a matter which affected somebody—whe-
ther it was the character of the Irish member, who made
the announcement or the character of the government it
was not for him to say. (Hear.) He would leave that
matter in the hands of the house, and the house would
decide whether such conduct was honourable or not. (Hear.)
The hon. member for Clonmel interrupted him when he
was about to make that statement. He certainly made
every allowance for the position in which that hon. member
now stood. (Laughter.) If that hon. member really
wished to accomplish what he pretended by his motion last
night, and which he did not much simplify by the incoherent
wanderings of a guilty conscience, which had violated its
pledges—(loud laughter).
Mr. LAWLESS, much excited, rose to order. He ap-
pealed to the chairman to know in what way he trespassed
on the rules of the house or the rules which befitted an
assembly of gentlemen when he moved that Ireland be
exempted from the income tax. In making that motion
he pledged his honour he had no other motive. (Loud
cries of Order, order." " Chair,chair, " which continued
for a long time, Mr. Megan and Mr. chair,"
being left on
their legs and endeavouring to address the committee.) At
length
Mr. WALPOLE role and said it was necessary for the
due regulation of discussion, whether the Speaker or Mr.
Bouvene sat in the chair, that the decision of the chairman
should be implicitly obeyed. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
member for Clonmel had now twice interrupted the hon.
member for Westmeath, and it was quite Irregular for one
hon. member to interrupt another whilst speaking, unless
he rose to a point of order. (Hear, hear.) The hon. mem-
ber for Clonmel rose to a point of order, but, instead of
speaking to the point of order, he was proceeding to state
other matters. (Hear.)
Mr. LAWLESS—I object to the words " guilty con-
science." I—(loud cries of " Order, order, " Chair,
I chair").
Mr. BOUVERIE called on Mr. Megan to proceed, but
Mr. Lawless refused to give way, and moved that the
words of the hon. member for Westmeath be taken down.
(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he agreed with the right hon.
gentleman opposite that it was absolutely necessary that the
house should maintain silence ; and in the next place, that
hon. members should be governed by the decision of the
chairman. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said that the hon. member near him (Mr.
Lawless) made a motion which, although he (Mr. Hume)
heard, he believed the chairman could not hear in conse-
quence of the noise. The hon. gentleman complained of
the words "guilty conscience," and moved that those words
be taken down. (Laughter, and "oh, oh.") He appre-
hended that by the rule of the homer he was entitled to have
the words taken down, if he thought they cast any reflec-
tion upon him. (Hear.)
The CHAIRMAN said he did not hear the hon. gentle-
men making any motion, and to the best of his judgment
he believed that the hon. member for Clonmel had tra-
velled out of the point of order. (Hear, hear.) He did
net hear the hon. member for Westmeath make use of the
words complained of. If he used the disorderly words he
should, of course, call hiss to order. But with regard to
taking down words, he begged to inform tke committee
that a mistake had been made on the previous night with
regard to this matter; for he had since been informed that
it was for the house, with the Speaker in the chair, and not
for the committee, to decide whether the words should be
taken down or not. (Cheers.)
Mr. MAGAN said that the hon. member for New Ross,
whose words had been ordered to be taken down, had come
out of that ordeal with such flying colours that he was ra-
ther ambitious to have his words taken down. (Loud
laughter.) But he would not be so obstinate as that hon.
gentleman, for if he said anything offensive, he was most
desirous of withdrawing it. (Hear, hear.) At the same
time he must say the hon. member for Clonmel did not
seem disposed to allow him the necessary liberty to state
naked facts. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He was
going to state the way in which the government had
behaved with respect to the imposition of the in-
come tax in Ireland. (Laughter.) He was about to state
that persons who were considered to be accredited both by
the wh:gs and Peelites did by creating confusion and mak-
ing statements such as he had referred to, dine:fly pro-
cure the defeat of Lord Derby and his government. (Loud
opposition cheers.) The same parties now accused them
(the Irish members) of wanting to require from any go-
vernment the same thing that they required of the present
government, and of wishing to bring back Lord Derby to
powor. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Megan) wished to state
plainly that he did want to brine back Lord Derby, but he
only wanted to bring him back for the purpose of putting
him out again. (Loud laughter.) Now, with regard to
those gentlemen on the opposite side who talked of being
conscientious and independent, he must say that they were
not independent, and that their consciences were kept in the
boroughs they represented. They were not allowed to bring
their consciences there, and were left no discretion in the
matter whatever. (" Hear," and laughter.) If ho might
make use of a vulgar expression in reference to them, he
would say that they were like a pennyworth of butter
wrapped up in Mr. Sharman Crawford's bill. (Laughter.)
He believed he was the only member who professed inde-
pendent politics in that house. (Loud laughter.) He
claimed to be independent, and it was perfectly well known
why he said so. (Laughter.) Those gentlemen opposite
who voted with the government had violated the pledges
they made to their constituents. (Ob, oh.) He said that
in the most polite manner possible. (Much laughter.)
There were two classes of Irish representatives. Some few
of them, who voted with the government, such as the hon.
member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert) and his colleague, voted
he had no doubt, conscientiously. But there was another
class who had no discretion left them. He rose on the part
of those Irish members who bad kept their pledges, for the
purpose of saying that it would be extremely convenient if
in future no emissaries of the government were found at the
meetings of Irish members. (Loud laughter.)
Colonel OREVILLE said that be was surprised that
hon. gentlemen opposite, who appeared to be so thin-skinned
when imputations were cast upon them, should themselves
cast reflections on others, and tell those on his side of the
house that thee could not be impartial on this subject.
(Hear, hear.) Ile was surprised that the hon. member fee
Carlow (Mr. ball) should have mete the allusions and cast
the imputations he did, after te,e statements made by the
promises.hon.
membe
The and
same kind, but his vote •••.as rumours
not influenced by those
''
fo IliVeeseitgmheta.t ~ He heard rumours of the
hon, gentleman the President of
dthe Board of Cont el, however, appeared to be somewhat
influenced by them, because ho said that ho would
I not consent to Pupas° an income tax 'n Ireland,

gb he al new to vote for that proposition, ca
tahltehoguround wantreity ro
was to have remitted to her
a ammaitt,seol (be House of Lords decided
4,000,000/. of consolida;,d mollifies, or au annual charge
of 245,0001. Now,
that Ireland was not bound equity to pay half of that
charge. Yet Ireland was to have ad income tax to the eg.
tent of 460,0001., and an increase the spirit duties—
(hear)—the result of which would be that for 131,0001. re.
mined, we should have to pay 500,0001. additionai taxation.
He was glad to ate Irish members opposite (on the govern.
meat side) holding themselves independent of the govern.
meat, and withholding their support from • measure for
imposing the income tux on Ireland. There were ques.
tions of vital importance to the interests of that country
still unsettled, sad while they remained so it was necessary
that the Irish party should continue independent of the
one side or the other, and avoid merging its strength into
that of either. (hear, hear.)
Mr. E. BALL had understood the hon. gentleman the
member for Westmeath (Mr. Mogan) to say that a certain
member of that house, who was an accredited agent of the
whig and Peel party, had intimated to the Irish members
that, if they would assist in turning out Lord Derby's mi-
nistry, Ireland should not be made liable to the property
tax. (Hear, hear.) Ile (Mr. Bal.) did not know much of
the usages of that house, but he wits quite sure the public
out of doors would consider that, if that was true, a viola-
tion of all good faith and good feeling bad been committed,
and that it ought not to pass without explanation. (Hear,
hear.) He did not know who the accredited agent alluded
towas—whetker it was the Secretary of the Treutiry or
not ; but, if so, he hoped such an explanation would be
given as should wipe away the imputation of discreditable
conduct. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRENCH hail char,7ed his right hon. friend (Sir C.
Wood) with not carrying out the promise inn rred from
the declaration he made to the Irish members in that house
in reference to the extension of the income tax to Ireland,
and his right hon. friend had endeavoured to answer that
charge by explaining that the question now stood on a dif-
ferent footing, in consequence of the imposition of the tax
being accompanied by the remission of the consolidated
annuities; and that inasmuch as that remission would
relieve the land from a charge to which it was now liable,
he did not consider himself bound by the declaration. The
house would recollect that the statement of the right hon,
gentleman against extending the income tax to Ireland was
made is reference to the proposal fur that purpose brought
forward last year by the right hon. member for Bucks,
which did not in any way affect the land ; consequently,
the right hon. gentleman's explanation was in no way ap-
plicable. The right hon. gentleman, it would be remem-
bered, called on Irish members to beware how they per.
mitted the small end of the wedge to be inserted, and ad.
vised them not to allow the income tax to he extended to
Ireland in any shape ; and now that a proposal for imposing
that tax to a fir greater extent was brought forward, ha
turned round upon the Irish members, and abandoning
altogether his declaration against this tax in any shape as
applicable to Ireland, he supported it, giving a; his only
explanation that some relief was to be given to the land.
(Hear, bear )
Lord J. RUSSELL remarked that it would be better if
the hon. gentleman had a charge to make against his right
hon. friend—that he could not.honestly and honourably vote
for the government prououl of the income tax, which.he
had declared his intention to vote for—if the hon. gentle-
man bad such a charge to make it would be better that he
should make it when his right hon. friend was in the
house, that he might have the opportunity of meeting it.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRENCII did not know when he spoke that the
right hon. gentleman the member for Halifax was not in
the house. Did the noble lord mean to impute to him (Mr.
French) that he had made a charge against the right hon,
gentleman in his absence which be would not have made in
his presence ? (" Hear," and " Oh.") If not, what (lid
he mean ? He could assure the noble lord that he was not
the person to shrink from bringing forward charges against
any minister, and in the presence of that minister, when he
thought them well founded.
. _

Sid R. INGLIS was ready to give to Irish members the
largest latitude of time and of eloquence, but, on the part
of English members, he must appeal to them now to allow
them to proceed with the business of the country. (Hear,
hear.) He wished to call attention to a bUIV et which
he had brought under the notice of the house
on every occasion of the renewal of the income
tax since 1842, viz., the injustice in point of
principle, while they made ail incomes under a
certain amount exempt, to charge the tax upon the who:a
of the incosue where it exceeded the limit fixed. (Hear,
hear.) That was if they fixed the limit at which the tax
should begin at 1001. a year or 150/. a year, it should apply
only to the incomes beyond that amount and not to the
whole sum. The extension of the tax to incomes of 1001.
would extend the injustice of which he complained to a
class of persona who perhaps were least able to bear it.
This principle of levying the tax pressed very severely on
clergymen of small incomes, halt-pay officers, and otners,
who were compelled to maintain the position of gentlemen
on slender means. 41. 7s. 6d. a year was a small sum to
members of that house, but it was a serious amount to
persona whose incomes were only 1501, a year. What he
contended was, that whatever the limit was, whether 100/.
or 150!., at which the income should become liable to
the tax—the tax should be charged only upon the
amount by which that limit was exceeded. Two
objections only had he ever beard urged against this plan—
vie., the difficulty of remodelling the arrangements; and the
loss to the revenue. With regard to the first, he believed, if
his right hon. friend would direct one of the functionaries
in his office to turn his attention to the subject, the difficulty
might be met in a fortnight; and as to the second—the
question was not so much what the revenue would lose, as
whether they did not, by the system they adopted, inflict
a positive hardship and injustice. He would not propose
any formal resolution, but would reserve to himself the
right of doing so at a future time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to
reply ; but
The CHAIRMAN said there was no question before the
committee. He had not stopped the hon. baronet, because
he did not know but that he was about to conclude with
en amendment. The observations of the hon. baronet did
sot, however, refer to that part of the resolutions wheels be
(the chairman) had read, and he must be permitted to read
on until he came to some part to which any hon. gentleman
desired to propose amendment.
The first part of the resolution was then read, viz.," That
It is the opinion of this committee, that, tow:!rds raising the
supply granted to her Majesty, there shall be raised *R-
ansil, during the terms hereinafter limited the several
rates and duties following (that is to say), for and in re-
spect of the property in any lands, tenements, or hercilits-
aunts, in the United Kingdom, and for and in respect of
every annuity, pension, or stipend."
Mr. FITZGERALD had an amendment to interpose at
this point, the object of which was to exempt incomes in
behusd arising from trades and professions from this tax.
He sencurred in the principle, if the tax was to be made
Immanent in this country, of extending it to Ireland. And
the feeling in Ireland was not so much against the eaten-
don of the income tax to that country as against its applica-
tion to trades and professions. lie explained the grounds
upon which he had voted on the original motion.
If there had been either a new government or a dissolution,
what would have been the result ? If Lord Derby had
returned to power, would he have been able to exempt
Ireland from the income tax ? It had been stated—although
he (Mr. Fitzgerald) did not believe it—that a compact had
been entered into between certain of the Irish party and a
member of the supposed incoming government,
..the terms
of which were that the income tax should not be extended
to Ireland. He did not believe that to be the fact. But if
such a pledge had been given by any statesman, he would
aot have been able to redeem it ; and certainly the right
hon. gentleman, the member for Buckinghamshire, would
not have done so, for he bad recorded his deliberate reasons
for the intension of the income tax to Ireland on the occa-
sion of Sir B. Hall's motion ; and the same opinion
had been expressed by the hon. member for North War-
wickshire, and other members on the opposite side of the
house, and who had voted in accordance with those
opinions—and that, too, in 1848 and 1849, when' there was
greater distress in Ireland than now, and when no equiva-
lent was offered like the remission of the Consolidated An-
nuities. Supposing, then, that the amendment of the hon.
member for Hertfordshire had been successful, and a disso-
lution had followed, the cry at every hustings in England
would have been that the income tax should be extended
to Ireland, because in this country it was believed that
this was a free trade budget. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) believed
it was a free trade budget, and because it was so he sup-
ported it. The amendment he proposed was a real one, and
one which he should press to a division, on the ground that
the expense of the collection of the income tax, as regarded
trades and professions, would be so great as to render it un-
productive.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he rose merely to say a few
words with reference to what had fallen from the hon. and
learned gentleman, on the subject of a compact or under-
standing which had been come to between the friends with
whom he acted and a certain portion of the representatives
of Ireland. So long as the rumours of such a compact were
confined to the pages of a hostile press he should no; have
taken notice of it ; but the hon. and learned gentleman had
mentioned it in his place in parliament, and he (Sir
J. Pakington) wished distinctly to state that the ex-
istence of any compact, or treaty, or negotiation,
or understanding with the representatives of Ire-
land, in order to secure their co-operation in the late debate,
was unknown to him. (Hear, hear.) No such arrange-
ment had been made with his concurrence, and he entirely
disbelieved she rumour on the subject. At the same time
he would say that he should not be deterred by any such
rumour from doing what he conceived to be his duty to-
wards Ireland; and it was the duty of the representatives
of English as well as Irish constituencies to take such a
come as they considered their duty to Ireland required.
Be, fur one, was of opinion that the budget bore hardly
on Ireland—(hear, hear)—and if the debate of that evening
had not been prematurely cut short, he should have been
prepared to state at length his opinions in that respect. As
it was, he would merely state that he believed the
rumour to_which allusion had been made was un-
founded

(Hear, hei.)

Mr. WHITES:IDE said that the bon, and learned gen-
tleman opposite (Mr. Fitzgerald) hail stated that Irish
members on that (the opposition) elite of the house had
voted for the amendment of the hon. member for Hertford-
shire under a delusion. That might be, but they bad
voted sincerely and conscientiously. Forty-two gentlemen
from Ireland joined in a vote for what they believed to ba
a right and just amendment; and that was the ony chance
which Ireland had of escai.iug the income tar, which had
been described by some gentlemen en the ministerial
benches as an unjust and inguittorial tas. The hon. an,
learned gentleman who had sr.
eken with so much sincere
and who appeared to expect
to carry his amendment,
then with the hor„ memb'a for Clonmel, and other sonde_
Men aetilli!ell. 11,111111gUi,:ed judgment, had taken the? shortest
and most ;.
etcCeeiVo oourre defeat the interests of r cowl.