The Express.
London, England, 1847-12-11 00:00:00

TAX AT!ON.

Me. EWART begged to ask the right hon. gentleman, the
Chancellor of the Exthequer, whether it would be in the
power of the government to take any general view of out
whole system of taxation, fur the object of simplifying anti
reforming it in the present session of Parliament? He was
induced to ask this question by • promise made by the right
hon. gentleman last session, that a general revision of tax-
ation would probably take place, and which announcement
caused some excitement.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that he had held out any expectation in the lest ses-
sion that there would be a revision of taxation. He cer-
tainly said last session that the state of the revenue was not
each as to allow of any changes. This year it would be ne-
cessary to renew or to deal with the income tax, and the
subject of taxation would then come before the house, and it
would be better to postpone dealing with the subject till
then. He could not hold out any hope of a revision of gene-
ral taxation. It would be inconvenient to answer any ques-
tions as to the intentions of the government in relation to
the budget which be should propose in the spring, lest the
course they intended should be fettered. He must decline
, to answer a question which might cause undue expectations.
, Mr. HUME asked if the right hon. gentleman could give
him any idea when the budget world be brought forward 2
r The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could only answer that the budget would be brought for-
ward after the recess. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
THE CASE OF THE REV. DR. RYAN.
Mr. MONSELL said that, although he was aware that it
was not strictly in order to allude to anything which had
occurred in a former debate, be hoped the house would
excuse him if he alluded to • charge which bad been brought
against the Right Rev. Dr. Ryan, the Roman catholic bishop
of Limerick, last night by the hon. member for Bridport
That hon. member had said that Dr. Ryan came under
the " description of an accessory before the fact, for he was
the instigator of crime," that crime being murder. He (Mr.
Monesill) wee not going to speak at random about that right
rev. prelate, but he was about to state what he knew per-
ssmell which was believed by all classes in the ootuata7
to which
be belonged. Dr. Ryan had distinguished himself
by his active endeavours to support the law—(hear, bear)—
and bad subjected himself to much obloquy on account of
the peaceable and trauma course lie had thought it his ditty
to rune. The saw against him was founded on some
were asaraisel is a drop delivered by him at a confirms-
wball la lis mew, in which he referred to
sairdaida at smoty among the upper classes. Re
(Mr. Mansell) had not got the charge with him, but
fortunately in another plaise Lord Farnham had quoted from
it, and spoke in the highest terms of Dr. Ryan, and of the
spirit in which that charge was uttered. It was most unjust,
therefore, to take some words from the charge on which to
found an accusation of each magnitude, for it would appear
that he only referred to the misdeeds of one class, and not to
thou of the others - whereas no one ever spoke more strongly
dm he did against those Prima which he we. accused
al being accessory to. He (Mr. Monoell) had stated his opi-
nion, and he would appeal to the noble lord the member for
Falkirk, to the right hon. gentleman the President of the
bard of Trade, and to the hon. gentleman the member far
North Northamptonshire, who lived near Dr. Ryan, to bear
their testimony to his character; =Oho hoped that would be
some reparation to that right rev, prelate's feelings after the
wanton attack which bad been made upon him.
The Earl of LINCOLN said, alter what had been stated by
the honourable member for Limerick, the near neighbour
of Dr. Ryan, it was almost unnecessary for him to add a
word; but he had no hesitation in responding to the appeal
which had been made to him. He had not the honour of
Dr. Ryan's acquaintance, but during his short connexion
with Ireland the character of that prelate had been more
than once brought under his notice. There was great dis-
uses in Limerick and Clare, and there were several occasions
in which he heard of Dr. Ryan, and he could state his be-
lief that there was no individual whose character stood
higher. (Hear.) He bad heard but one opinion of
him from persons of all political tenets, parties, and
weeds, and be was stated to be exemplary in every
respect. So far from his being likely to be subject to a charge
of being accessory to any crime whatever, he (Lord Lincoln)
believed that he had studiously devoted himself to the duties
et has sacred calling, and always stood aloof from political
parties, and invariably advocated the preservation of peace
and order.
iTear, hear.)
Mr. LAB UCHERE, after the appeal which had been
made to him, would say a few words, although he felt it to
be unuecumary after what had been said by the noble lord
and the hen. member for Limerick. He (Mr. Labouchere)
was absent from the house when the bon. member for Brid-
port used the words in question, but if he had been present,
although he was not personally acquainted with
Dr. Ryan, he knew enough of him to have
batosad him immediately to rise, and bear teed-
=to the excellence of his conduct and character.
be (Mr. Labeuchere) was in Ireland he bad had oppor-
tunities of knowing the character of Dr. Ryan. He knew that
bitted studiously avoided taking any part in polities, that
be bad always upheld peace ea order, and that he was im-
movable of instigating any one to crime. They had heard much
When debate. of the conduct of the Roman catholic clergy,
ganef language used by them. He (Mr. Labouchare) con-
demned that anagg as criminal and dangerous in any one,
Miner, eryecially us • minister of religion. All such ex-
=the misconduct of the Roman catholic clergy were
In the newspapers and promulgated. He did not
repot that it should be so, or the reprobation which it met
with ; but he did regret that the house and the country did
not know the conduct of hundreds of the Roman
catholic clergy (hear, bear) —who were exposing
themselves to obloquy, and losing their popularity with
their flocks, because they exhorted them to obedience to the
law. If the whole truth were known, it would appear that
the country owed a large debt to the Roman catholic clergy;
and he hoped the house aad the country would not run away
with the idea that, as a clue, they were chargeable with the
obloquy which had partly fallen on those who used the lan-
guage which bad been adverted to in these debates. The
hon. member for Bridport must be quite ignorant of the
character of Dr. Ryan, or he never would have need the ex-
pressions which he did, and have accused him of being the
promoter of misconduct. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. STAFFORD said it gave him great satisfaction
and pleasure to bear his teatimohy to the worth and excellence
of so good a man as Dr. Ryan. (Hear, hear.) He
had an advantage over the noble lord (Lincoln), and
the right honigentleman (Mr. Labouchere), for he was
personally acquainted with him. He had witnessed his con-
duct in CirCUMBOUICtS of political excitement, of difficulty, of
disease, and of famine, and be could truly say that his con-
duct was that of a real Christie. He (Mr. Stafford) could
not find the charge from which the extract in question bad
been takea, but UM maid Uwe !mead it be would have read
it teen bane, kg usibilig MAY better as an exposition
the Mao of a Oluitfilet s hear.) He hoped, if
lir bah, bark, the uninanr Ike Marylebone had that
14141! would read It.
00CHBAND Mid It was painful to him to be
Allinnilli if weinette unking an unjust charge against any
110=tilliffin.upenklly • =Joiner of any church.
iges? eosin what had been said by the hon.
: realuilitiiilliol Illipiedds,
bow
viimos- sod those
F to ot
thheer
auseurhon. menso-f
Zab la mai set eats that ••• '
erviit,
bum'
NA
.11111"ba imaavesillasarbili
be for.
OK lo arima, but stab, Wow

- -
. • •
arramion
summen ' • ell
4'i
N. •
A. II
vir4s-

tp eemethron. Whit be seated wee se hisses 5...02111
higher carts see >l et their Obolales abliades
niseseer lona oltheradirtre add anderiene
be mks limemilp, dead to all Sr
theby die 411111111 arsine the gairE
the amen
as se yeses sad ;lather, Ile
semilita Sasser sea •, they exercised est Hide lidos
septum et heartless amity, calculated to Wog dam Ma.
Mani Gem heaven upon them." Dr. Ryan WO be ea
sodas eta, but still, as a member of that lure" be (N 2.1
Cochrane) maintained that this was eel language aide at •
minister &geld n ter. ("Hear, beer," end cheers)
Str R. HALL said that what hail bum rearlbribelgra
sembor Bridport part of =7 davomd 111
Br. 11.=. He (Sir B. Hall) bad to adieus da
bare night, and at sweetie ehespabkis bad been sale
seek* Dr. Ryan. Ns d=it lat der d° I°, b°66°.°
on the first night ti the me ree Mat he hoped lid
the Roman cat
blimsby sued Wee= e 1.6111
of part of the permeated sadva tbe tweraisure what wee
their duty to their sonsday wad the lets He ha
l Samba
last night to have reed another past af the Sans dellseed
by Dr. Ryan, as well as the part reed by the boa. member
for Bridport. The charge of Dr. Ryan wee a eery
different thing to a speech which he (Si: B Hall)
had Quoted on the first aught of the session. The hon.
but. thin rend a portion of the charge in question, which
was to the following effect " While viewing the Mate of
the upper classes we must not forget the middle and the
lower classes. Complaints were made by tenants against their
landlords, and their misfortunes were attributed to them;
but were the tenants what they ought to be? While con-
inking their own happiness, did, they take into consideration
that 01 the landlords Were not the tenants knavish and
apathetic, end apt to think the land belonged to themselves
alone ? If the land was cultivated by industrious tenants
end generous landlords it would produce four times se
much as it did. It was said that there was no sym-
pathy for the people; but thousands sympathised with
them—the bishops, the priests, the legislature sympathised
with them. The legislature had created laws for their
assistance, and had passed a poor law,—the most important
law which had been pared for a hundred years,—• law which
he had always wished to see enacted. But so long as mur-
der and disregard of the laws of God and man continued,
their beat friends must blush for them." (Hear.)
Viscount MORPETK did not wish to prolong this dis-
cussion, but he thought it due to Dr. Ryan to state that
though he was never personally acquainted with him, he
had heard testimoay borne to the conciliatory character of
his conduct, end that he had always devoted himself to his
functions as a Christian bishop ' • and Bishop Jebb, the pro-
testant bishop of Limerick, is his correspondence, bore his
tortimony to the fact of the Roman catholic bishop having
proved a zealous coadjutor in all Christian duties.
Sir J. WALSH thought this might have been a hasty ex-
preesion by Dr. Ryan, but it was as unfortunate one in the
present state of Ireland. It was important to the character
of the, priesthood that they should in the strongest and moot
public manner disavow the expressions used by some of their
body, which, rightly reported, were deeply criminal, and
which urged their flocks to be guilty of areassination.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that the hon. baronet had at.
tacked the Roman catholic clergy on mere report. There
we. no proof of the accusations which had been made against
them, end he lectured them in a manner which the Whops
and clergy were not likely much to regard. He (Mr.
O'Connell) could bear his humble testimony to the conduct
of his lordship, Dr. Ryan, and it would be the more weighty
because his lordship had always kept free from political par-
ties. He was loved and respected by ell who knew him' and
he WIN the last person he should have expected to have been
attacked. Another prelate had been spoken of by the hon.
member for Bridpurt—Dr. M'Hale. He was attacked
simply because he had congratulated the people on the un-
exampled patience with which they had borne the cala-
mity which had befallen them. Would any one deny that
that was the car ? The noble lord the member for Moyle-
bone had said last night that all the murderers went to the
priests and obtained absolution, the fact being that they were
wretches who had been long out of the pale of the church ;
and it was rather too bad to have it said that with ouch per-
sons the priests profaned one of the most solemn sacraments
of the church.
Mr. REYNOLDS complained of the attack which had
been made on Dr. Ryan, when it appeared that all be had
been guilty of was a statement of facts describing the neglect
of the lower orders by the higher in his diocese. Allusion
bad been made by the hen. member for Ilasylebone to the
sputh of Dr. Laffan, at a meeting at Cashel. He (Mr.
Reynolds) did not justify the expressions that rev. gentlo-
man was reported to have used; he condemned them, and re-
gretted that they had been used, aid, assuming that the
report had been furnished to the boo. member by an Irish
correspoadent, he was prepared to exonerate bim from the
sin of garbling it. He did not charge the hon. member with
suppressing any facts, but he had referred to the speech de-
livered on the occasion in question by the Very Rev. Mr.
Letitia, and he had found that the hon. member had not
given the rev. gentleman credit for the expressions which
Immediately followed the objectionable mirage which had
been quoted. With the permission of the house he (Mr,
Reynolds) would read an extract. The Rev. Mr. Lam
said, " Did he stand there in defence of murder ? God for-
bid. He had ever preached, as far as his humble intellect
directed, and with all the sincerity and energy with which
his soul was animated, that the olood of man cried to heaven
for vengeance, and that sooner or later the murderer would
come to nis own destruction; that if he avoided the conse-
quences of his crime in this world (as was almost impossible),
amusedly, on passing the frontiers of eternity, the Lord of
all justice would deal to him that eternal judgment which
they were told awaited the murderer." Now, *dunning
that the expressions used io the early part of the speech
ought not to have been used, he (Mr. Reynolds) thought he
was justified in stating that the hon. member for Mamie-
bons ought, in common justice, to have gives the rev. speaker
credit for the expressions which followed. At the same time,
be (Mr. Reynolds) was of opinion that no man, whether
dressed in the garb of a clergyman or in any other costume,
ought to see expression, to the people that could by possibi-
lity be misconstrued. (Hear, hear.) If the clergy of any
sect or denomination of Christians had been so virulzintlz
as attacked had been the Roman catholic clergy of I
he should feel it his duty to stand up in their defence. He
had heard the Roman oathoiic clergy much impeached in
that house, and, he regretted to add, that those who had
brought charges against them had failed to give them credit
far those deeds of peer and order that they were known to
have performed. Let him remind the house that the present
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had instructed his secretary to
convey a special vote of thanks to the Right Rev. Dr. Ken-
nedy, Roman catholic bishop of Kiilaloe, for his exertions,
end tilos of his clergy, to preserve and maintain the peace.
In the countyof Limerick, within the last six weeks, a dis-
orderly and lawless mob of 1,600 persons, in the broad day-
light, attacked the workhouse, put the guardians of the poor
fa fear of their lives, seized the cattle and corn of the gentry,
and carried away their booty into the mountains. Three
Roman catholic clergymen followed them, and succeeded in
getting all the cattle and corn restored, end by their preach-
ing had sine* restored that part of the country to perfect
peace. (Hear, hear.)
The order of the day was then read, and the question
" That the Speaker do now leave the chair," having been put,
Sir W. VERNER rose and addressed the house, but in so
low a tone as to be scarcely audible in the gallery. The
hon. baronet was understood to say that however much he
was rejoiced that her Majesty's government had thought it
right even at this late period to propose any measure calcu-
lated to relieve the well-disposed and peaceable portion
of the population, and to preserve life and property in Ire-
land, rill he could not avoid expressing his regret that all
the remenedrances which had long sines been meek on the
stekhiet also g evils of Ireland should have remained
till new eumel Early in the present year he had raised
his voles in ea mammonr to convince the noble lord at the
head of the geeernment, and those acting with him, of the
inevitable consequences which would ensue if those remon-
strances were neglected. At the same time, he had moved
for returns which, though granted, had not been made,
which would have shown that arms bad been eagerly par
chased in Ireland by men from whom they ought to have been
withheld, read the truth of his anticipations on the with-
drawal of the arms hill in 1848, had been fully borne out by
the events which had followed. By the abandonment of that
measure by the government is 1846, permission to
arms had been given at a meet unseasonable time. t that
period the bad and evil disposed were demanding mainte-
nance and support from the landlords and farmers. The
two parties wire at true, and this bad been the period
ebosen by the government for the establiehment, in Ire-
land, of free-trade in arms. (Hear, hear.) On the
10th of August, 1816, the arms bill came in for a
second reading, and on that occasion the noble lord mid,
" The question is whether all persons whatever in Ireland
should be at perfect liberty to have any arms they phase,
to introduce any quantity of gunpowder they please Me the
country, and to sell that gunpowder and those Mee i 11111
interior, on the coast, and is all parts of Ireland. If yea
gave en entire license te the people to have what Oregano,
my belief is that you will be giving encouragement to en►
rage. and that there will be more offences against life the.
if you allowed this bill to continue. I have no doubt that
the throwing out of this bill would encourage =say of those
malefactors in Ireland who go about selling themselves le
commit murder." Such were the opinions eiralaa by the
noble lord on that ocesiden, and the second realm of the
bill was carried by a majority of 33 in a house Nagellaet,
79 member,. On the following Monday, however, las soda
lord at the head of the government tams downandemermseed
the abandonment of the bill, but " assured the loess that
the government were still determined at all wash that
security to life and property in Irelaneltrinee be
diminished." Connected with this there
was a circumstance which had at time essated
great alarm in Irelend. A gentleman now no more, but
formerly of great power and influence in Ireland, for whose
memory he should not utter a word of disrespect (the late
Mr. O'Connell), announced at a repeal meeting in Dublin
the withdrawal of the Arms Bill on the very same day
that the announcement was made in this house by her
Majmty's peen went. The connexion between Conciliation
Hall and Dawning-street was held to bode no good to Ire-
lend, and the result was that the moment was seized upon
by the people to arm themselves. And what:bad been the
consequent*, ? Why the right hon. baronet on introdacing
the present bill detailed a long catalogue of crime, and
on concluding hit speech admitted that in every case be had
detailed the crime had been committed by assent el flee
arms. Nothing could palliate murder, sad yet the
attempt to do so had been made in the mousse if the
discussion on the present bill. Murders had hew eommitted_ j
and the widows end orphans of those elbow lime had
beenaemleed cried aloud to the noble lard, net hr VOW
for that protection which had bees denied to
and dithers. On thesetaLesade he Medd
to the bill now on the
Mr. ANIVEIt was desirous, before the Epeeher leR the
glludr, to express his sentiments on the subject before the
said to justify the vote he had already given. It
seemed to blur that the measure was based upon two equally
feles smumptions; first, that the people of Ireland could not

• •

safely be entrusted to preserve the pesos of Ireland: and,
usually, that the Castle authorities in Dublin or of the
Treasury Isere might sally
le
Masted with an unlimited
discretion over the propmty sad liberties of the Irish people.
The right boa. baronet Oft 0. Grey) bad signally tailed in •
establishing these two propositions; though he had suc-
ceeded in proving that all former systems of governing Ire.
land bad failed. This fillers was attributable to the
gradual withdrawal of the gentlemen and yeomanry of Ire-
land from the can of the public peace, which had hmn en-
trusted to paid officials. The measure before the house was
• step further in the same bad direction. A few years ago
the district he represented, end other districts of Ireland,
were attached to the cause of order; they had • direct pecu-
niary interest in keeping down disturbance ; but, by the
consolidation of all the magisterial jurisdictions in Ireland
in the vice.regal authority—by the system of mulcting the
whole community instead of the particular district for the
codas of disturbance--by creating a standing army, in the
shape of a constabulary force, et the direction of the Lord-
Lientenant—thera had been engendered the indisposition to
actin the repression of crime, of which so much complaint had
been made. Well might such a system fail ; and it wee meet
astonishing that the right hon. baronet should propose to
remedy this failure by an extension and augmentation of
the tame vicious system. He (Hr. Ansley) yielded to no
one in his abborrence of the crimes that had been perpe-
trated in Ireland ; but he must object to this bill, believing
that it would be wholly ineffectual for the repression of such
mimes, and that it would engender • state of things namely
leas objectionable than that which it proposed to remedy. It
went to withdraw the whole magisterial authority of Ireland,
and to vest in the Lord-Lieutenant a jurisdiction of an en-
tirely different character. Even were Lord Clarendon an
angel of light, the propriety might be doubted of investing him,
or rather the right hon. the Home Secretary—for, after all, the
matter would rest with him—with powers Demist and extensive.
He had listened in vain for any fact from an Irish member, tend-
ing to show the necessity of this measure. True, there wasthe
disposition to carry arms ; but was not this accounted for by
the way in which the tenantry and peasantry had been
treated ? Had the bill proposed to allow the use of fire-arms
to none but those who paid rates and taxes he might have
consented to go into the committee; but it actually pro-
hibited the bearing of arms, in proclaimed districts, to all
but those contained in some few specified exceptions. This
I was not only unconstitutional, but a reflection on the loyalty
and good.feehng of all cleans—gentlemen, magistracy, and
the people at large. Even the right of licensing to bear or
anus was taken away from the local magistracy. The
ill olt only took away the means of self defence, but im-
posed • lasting and indelible stigma oa classes. Irish
members were told, " You must either accept this measure,
or propose a better in its place." He denied theobligation ;
I he denied the necessity for any such measure; for all tha
evils had arisen from a departure from the ordinary curse
of law, whereby gross injustice had been intheted en Eng-
land and Scotland, through the calls made on the
consolidated fund. Let government go back to the
ancient principle of laying the burden of crime
on the district, whether a county, a barony, or
a town-land ; let them be made answerable for the
support of the families of persons who were assassinated;
let the local administrators of justice, the grand juries, be
armed with full powers of defence; and let the system of
rural municipalities, which the late sovereign proposed for
England, but whose application was intercepted by the Mel-
bourne ministry, be established in Ireland. The best effect'
would follow, agrarian disturbances would be removed, and
the people at large would have a direct interest in the pre-
servation of order. If a division took place on this stage, he
should vote against the bill going into committee ; he had
offered it 'no factious opposition, having given way on many
points ; and he felt that a resort to all the means of opposi-
tion which the forms of the house supplied could only be
justified in very extraordinary cases,—of which he did not
conceive this to be one. (Hear,)
Mr. P. SCROPE rebutted the implied charge against him-
self of inconsistency, in having opposed the last coercion bill,
on the ground of the widely different circumstances in which
Ireland was now placed. Former governments had not only ig-
nored, but denied, the real causes of Irish discontent ; political
agitation bad been assigned as the cause; but it was now pretty
generally admitted that the insecurity of tenant-right lay at
the root of all these evils. The noble lord at the head of the
government, In opposing the last Coercion Bill, had declared
his opinion that ejectment from land was the great source of
the distresses of Ireland; and, acting on this belief, the noble
lord had passed what might be called the great charter of Ire-
land—the poor-law. This was the firstof a great series of mea-
sures which government evidet.tly contemplated for the re-
dremiog of Irish grievances; and no doubt a measure for
improving the relations of landlord and tenant would form
one of the number. The government had evidently arrived
at a right conclusion as to the cause of the evils ; but he
much doubted whether the public at large were so well in-
formed on the subject. The outrages had been represented
as temporary and load ; but this was not true, or only par,
daily an, for they ware outbreaks of a long-existing and
deeply-seated malady. (Hear.) One main reason why dis-
narbences had been more frequent and serious in the
south and weft, than in the north of Ireland, was the
fact that in the latter tenant right was almost generally re-
cognised—in the former not at all. In Tipperary for in-
stance, there had been more clearances and less rectation
of tenant-right than perhaps in any other county of Ireland.
In support of this statement, the hon. gentleman read some
extracts from the evidence given before Lord Devon's com-
mission expressive of the opinion that the want of tenant-
eMht was the great grievance. He trusted that the danger
of aboolute starvation was at an end , now that Ireland pos.
sensed a poor-law ; and thus one great source of discontent
and disturbance would be withdrawn. Look at the state of
the occupying tenant who had depended so greatly on the po-
tato—how was he to pay his rent in arrear, or the rent of
this year ? It was estimated that 16 millions had been lost
by the failure of the potato crop in 1846—a sum equal to the
' entire rental of Ireland. He thought the charges against
the priests had been greatly exaggerated ; but they were
not the only persons who used reprehensible language. Lord
Fitswilliam had said, in a pamphlet which he had re-
cently published, :that the great evil of Ireland was
that there were 7,000,000 of oottien occupying small portions
of land—an evil which the state must at once proceed to re-
move—that was, to destroy the only means of subsistence
of 7,000,000 of people. (Hear, hear.) Such language was
enough to alarm tie people and make them desperate. The
great evil in his (Mr. Scrope's) estimation was, in not putting
it within the power of the peasantry of Ireland to improve
the land • and the remedy was, to give that security of
tenure Which would enable them to do so, and place mere
at the disposal of the peasantry the means of improving the
waste lands of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) The moat distrened dis
Viet in that country might be made to maintain is population
if such means were adopted. la Olentees, for instance,
with a population of 47,000 to a rental of 16,0001., there was
waste land enough, as proved before a committee of
the other house last session, to maintain all the
population if it were cultivated ; and in Mayo the
quantity of arable land might be absolutely doubled
if all the waste land were taken into cultivation.
Nothing more was wanted to remedy the miserable
condition of the peasantry of Ireland and prevent
agrarian outrages, than the removal of the evils which he
had pointed out. He did not oppose the bill before the
house; he only wished to press on the government and the
legislature the necessity of taking vigorous, permanent, and
thorough measures for entirely putting an end to the crimes
which all must deplore. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCULLY defended the Irish priests, and declared his
conviction that the bill would fail in its object. He must
admit with horror that many murders were perpetrated in
some parts of Ireland, but he thought the ordinary law
would have been suffieient for the repremion of crime if it
had been put in force. In that part of Tipperary which he
represented, there were 350 prisoners in the gaol of Clon-
mel, and 19 of them were charged with murder. These
culprits would have to wait until February or March
before they could he tried—why, then, was not a special
commission issued? (Hear.) Before the government applied
for extraordintu, they should have tried the ordinary
powers of the law. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman
then read seine portions of the evidence taken before Lord
Devon's commission, in order to show that two-thirds of the
outrages in Tipperary arose from the system of letting the
land, and the great number of ejectment'. They should,
therefore, first find out the causes of crime, and then imply
the proper remedies for the evils which produced it. (Hear,
hear.) So long as the present law of landlord and tenant
was left unaltered, there would not be perfect peace in
Ireland. The two great evils of Ireland were want of capital
and want of employment. He admitted that the habit of
allowing unemployed and poor persons to bear arms was
likely to be abused. Ho would not, therefore, be opposed
to refusing a license for carrying arms. He did not thiuk it
right that these who were innocent should be obliged to pay
the expenses of the constabulary who were sent into the dis-
turbed districts. They ought ti be cautious before
they gave the large powers contained in the bill
to the Lord-Lieutenant. Above all, he thought that the
liberal members of that house should pause before they
consented to give such powers to any one. He wee not op
posed to the clause respecting the beering of arms, but would '
resist the other clauses. He would not, however, oppose
the motion for going into committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'FLAHERTY did not think that this bill would
reach the evils of Ireland, which were of too deep a nature
to be cured by a measure like the present.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that if time were given for the
expression of public opinion in this country against the ab-
rogation of the constitution, it would be sufficient of itself
to atop the further progress of the bill. It was because the
bill was a violation of the constitution that he so much op-
posed the measure, and because the government bad not
produced any remedial measures. He though the ordinary
law, if properly and efficiently emitted, would be sufficient
to put an end to crime in Ireland. He would ask them,
therefore, not to arm the landlords of Ireland with such a
terrible engine as this bill would put into their hands. He
would give his determined resistance to every clause in the
I MIL

Mr. REYNOLDS said, he did not intend to give any
factious opposition to this bill. He opposed the measure on
constitutional grounds, and because he thought it would be
perfectly useless to effect the object it professed to have in
view. there had been already enacted thirty coercion bills
against Ireland, and that fact alone was enough to prove
that a measure of this kind would be ineffectual. He be-
Roved it was admitted that there was generally lea crime in
1847 in Ireland than in previous years. There were nine-
teen murders and attempts at murders, but of these no les.
than eleven were directed against farmers. As a body, he
could not say much in favour of the landlords of Ireland,
though there were many most excellent men amongst them.
But they were not exclusively the oppressors. He believed
that there was greater opprudon exercised by the
men in frieze coats upon those who were under them
than perhaps by any others. (Hear, bear.) He wu dis-
posed to place the greatest confidence in the Lord-Lieute-
nant of Ireland, and in the right hon. gentleman the Secre-
tary for Ireland; but he would net place in the hands of any
man the unconstitutional powers which this bill would give
them. The hon. gentleman then referred to the outbreaks

a