The Express.
London, England, 1851-03-25 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 2 1851.

mode was oa the authority of one of his (M 4 Reynolds .)'' Mristian unattached." (Cheers and laughter.) In con- I
own bishops, wha haT been a party himself .10 the trans. , elusion, Ise begged to say that he er,,posed the measure, be-'
actions. (Bear, hear.) lie (Sir B. 11611) had ercditel this ; cense it wai &retrograde movement in legislation; because
bishop, but now he serried for hip. (Laughter, and hear, iit was an infrrtnent of an act of the legislature; because
hear.) I it was as injtament, as the noble lewd himself admitted, of
Iit'CLESLtSTICAL TITLES ASSUMITION BILL. !severer measures; and, above all, b,eanse it was an infringe- !
The order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate : ment of the great principles of civil sail religious liberty.
on the second reading of this bill having been read, (Loud cheers.)
Mr. W. FAG.aN complained of the terms which had 1 Mach amusement was created by the simultaneous rising 1;
been uasd by Mr. Drummond on Thursday with reference of nearly all the members on the protectionist benches, but
to nunteries and esplain,d the circumitanc,; under which ' they all gave way to
Miss Talbot became an inmate of the Lidge, at Taunton. She , Mr. G. A. SI TIME, who wished to state his reasons
hadbc.mreeived in thceonvent at Tauntin furthe porpow of ' for renewing his vote against this sham bill of sham pains !
making it a temporary residence during tie abet:ilea of Lord and penalties against a sham aggression. (Cheers and '
Shrewsbury from this country. There were but two modes ; laughter.) Ile joined in expressing his surprise and India-
in which any lady could be received as a temporary resident nation at the measure with the hon. gentleman the member
in a convent—the one by becoming a boarder for thei/L put, ' fRo maor Con
cath olrk. What was the
reland ? nature
was iof their
to relations with
shrink
the '
poses of education, and the other by becoming apenint, ic, of llt dle hor
with a view of joining the community. Miss Talbot having , from, or evade this question. (Rear, hear.) It could not
been previously educated in Taunton could not he received as ; be denied that fur these last 10 years the state, grown
a border, without undergoing all the restraints to which I weary with a sterile, and certainly an expensive contest,
young ladies were subject Is henneeiving their ducation. The , had contracted a left-handed, 'Morganatic alliance, through
other 'node, as he had :dated, was that of becoming a pos. 1 the Charitable Bequests Act and the Mavnooth Bill, with
talent, and Miss Talbot had asked her uncle—being about the Roman catholic church in Ireland—(loud laughter,
to leave the country—to be received, in the only and cheers)—and now they sought to repudiate at once the
way she could be received, namely, as • postu- bride, and the not impolitic bigamy. (Renewed laughter.)
Gat. That excellent community, seeing the posi- . Far different was the spirit of the Secretary of State fur the
ti in Miss Talbot held in society, and seeing the enor- ; Colonies. In the spirit of a wise, far-seeing, and courageous
moos fortune in her power, though anxious to receive her, ' statesman—s,verlooking the miserable scruples of a pedantic
had hesitated to receive her as • postulant though they i uniformity, he had not hesitated to eonectle those titles
were anxious to give her a temporary residence. What I which 'Mr. Pitt would have accorded. (Cheers.) Following
hail been done ? She was received without the form, hut I the ptceedents of Santa Crux, Trinidad, and Demerara,
still as a postulant, an-1 therefore the bishop to whom the ,he saw no good reason why the Ronan catholic; of Malta
hon. gentleman (Sir IL Hall) had alluded, with the infor- ! should not have a Ronan catholic government ; and he
motion before him, was perfectly justified in the statement . had given Roman catholic bishops to the Roman catholics
he made, that she WAS IrkeeiVed as a postulant. And Miss of Australia. (Hear.) If that was right, he asked why
Talbot was equally justified in stating that she was not. catholic laws and catholic bishops should not be allowed to the
(Laughter.) In point of fact, she went fora temporary re- ; catholies in Ireland ?—(cheers)—and it' in Ireland, why not
... . . l)r. Doyl catholies in land ? (Cheers.) Rad the l'..- -- -
a .

. -
Odenie, and the'fact, an it aim stood, was that -.. Oryle to the • as Engl: _ ...e Pope really
was at that moment endeavouring to find a suitable TOW. given territorial titles to the bishops named in his bull ?
dense elsewhere for that lady. This explanation made the The title of Archbishop of Westminster involved no more
statement of the bishop quite reconeileable with the truth. of territorial right than the title of King of Cyprus and
With regard to the subject in thathouse, he believed, with the Jerusalem, as borne by the King of Sardinia; or than the
hon. member for Oldham (Mr. Fox), that this matter had not title of King of Jerusalem borne concurrently with him,
arisen from any supposed aggression on the prerogative of without any quarrel, by the King of the Two sicilies ; nei-
the crown, but (nun • thorough hatred of the catholic Sc- therof whom appeared to offend the Grand Turk, who was, de
Intim. Ile admitted the fact that there was an undies facto, the emperor of those countries. The title involved no
Raised hatred of Popery, and a resolute determination to more than that of King of France, which was worn by three
prevent its spread amongst • large portion of the population Electors of Hanover in succession, and who were also the
of this country, and he could not help thinking that hon. constitutional kings of England. (Hear, hear.) It in-
gentlemen. member' of that house, participated in that volved no more than the title of King of England when it
feeling. The leading objection which had been urced by was borne by James 111., Charles 111., and Henry IX.
hon. members wan, their natural and rightful overdue to (Hear, hear.) It was true that they were proscribed foe the
the introduction of the canon law into this country, which legislature, and they acted against the government of the
could net be introduced without this new ecclesiastical day ; hut ey still maintained the. style of Del yratia, 1100
sysitem The reason for this objection to the canon law was, voluntate Aommum, kings of England ; and there were
that it* not only gave the Pope, but the subordinate some amongst us who admitted their right. (Hear, hear.)
clergy, temporal power. The hon. and learned member The legislature might proscribe the Archbishop of West-
for Oxford (Mr. Page Wood), had said that in the canon minter, but he would remain still Del st rat irt, 1100 rolloltate
law the temporal and spiritual functions of the clergy Aonsinam, primateof England; and some intense ofbin Roman
were so mixed up, that it WAS impossible to disunite them, Catholic subjects would admit his claim. (Cheers.) The
and the hon. member (Mr. Walpole) had said that he distinction was one which eluded and defied legislation, be-
grudged the catholic clergy the temporal power which the cause it was in fora conseientire, between man and his God.
canon law conferrer'. Ile (Mr. Fagan) must say that this (Loud cheers.) It was like the old Jacobite rhyme
was too bad, after the oath which Roman catholic gentle. ire 4 Vera the Ring-Gad blew the faith's defender,
men hail taken at the table, that neither the Pope nor any tied bias—there fano harm in Alns the Pretenda;
hot who is that Pretender, wee that King,
other foreign prince or potentate had any temporal power
God New us all—th d's quite asothet thing,
in this country. The reason for introducing the ecelesi-
antical system into this country was that the Roman catholic (Loud cheers and laughter.) The hon. member for Oxford
(Mr. Page Wood) had striven to prove that the Pope had
population was increasing in thiscountry ; it amounted now
to nearly a million. 'There were more Roman catholice now Intended an aggression upon this countryas Ea-vital:p-
in London than in Rome Rolf, and a sufficient number of fical rule and spiritual faculties were synonymous, he (Mr.
wentclrgy could not be obtained unless they had right, and Smythe) had a right to assume that spiritual faculties only
I Em-
mett protected from the whim of any man, no were what was intended. (Hear, hear) Now, the
ma what rnight he his station. Under the vicars peror Julian, in what painters would call "his third man-
apostolic the clergy had no protection ; under the hierarchy ner," might jest as well have
_Sawa a decree. upon oriel-
they had they could not he removed without cause, nalism, or the Emperor of Russia an ukase against belief in
and the consequence was a sufficient supply of clergymen magnetic power, as for the house tolattempt to legislate about,
would be found. Ile believed this was the chief reason spiritual facultice. (Cheers.) With respect to the hill itself he
that hail induced the Roman catholice of this country, and thought the noble lord, in his powerful speech in, introdue-
particularly the clergy, to petition for this change, and ing the measure, had aptly described it as a " I hinder on
which had induced the Pope to concede it. He agreed, the sudden ; " and he would have done well to have !
however, with the clergy of the district of Beverley, who treated it as such, for the statesman who, in the nine:-
Ind presented a petition to Cardinal Wiseman on the sub- teeth century, could dream of laying the foundation of a 1
Jed, that, if matters remained as they are, they would spiritual unity, could owl ybe the name statesman who, in
be almost in a worse position than they were be the same nineteenth century, could arena of laying the
fore, because, so far so matters had now proceeded, foundation of the spiritual unity of Italy. (Cheers.)
the serondary clergy had now no rights--no protcc- a None but himself weld be his ganidel.
tion. Cardinal Wiseman, as Archbishop of Westminster, (Loud laughter and cheers.) If the Pope's measure were a
and the other bishops, were now freed in a great measure " blunderonthesuilden," the machinery by which he sought
from the power of the Pope; but at the same time the to carry it out was no less a blunder. Let him (Mr. Smythe)
secondary clergy were under their influence, and under their assume, for the purpose of argument, that the Pope (which
thumb, without any appeal whatever; and, therefore, he God forbid!) was really in earnest, and had a booth fide
agreed with the clergy of Beverley that, if the matter re- hostile intention towards England. Well, then he had at
mained as at present, they would be in a worse condition his command a force far more to he dreaded than the
even thanthey were in before. But he believed there did not cardinal and his half dozen suffragans; a force far more
live a man w o was more anxious than Cardinal Wiseman formidable than the Emperor of Russia with all his armies
woe to give to the clergy their fair rights., but in and all his hordes. lie meant the monastic orders—par-
enosequence of this excitement and agitation he titularly that one which fur the last century had beenof the
bad not been able to call together the clergy in synod for most practical use to Rome, and which had been called
the establishment of rules and regulations, and the giving " The catholic church in committee." (Hear, hear.) Ile
them canonical institutions. But he thought he might say meant that one order on which abuse had been of late so
Me time was not far distant when • canon law, suitable unsparingly lavished—but which as it hail survived the pro-
to this country and its law* and institutions, would he esta- vincial letters, so he thought the provincial speeches of the
blithe& A great deal had been said about the canon law, winter of 1850 would hardly put down. (Laughter.) He
' but he would observe respecting it that, except so fir as it meant the order of Jesus, of which the wisest of our
related to the doctrine of the faith, no Roman catholic priest philosophers, Lord Bacon, was not ashamed to say, " Being
er layman was bound to receive any canon that was in what' they are, would that they were ours." (Cheers.)
contravention of the municipal law of the country. In Absu-rd and suicidal, as he should not hesitate to say that
point of fact, the canon law was subsidiary to the municipal the Pope's policy 'had been, in one particular it merited
law, and was used precisely aa the civil law of the Roman+ their attention atonee as an example and a warning to them-
used to be. After all they hod heard about the pretensions selves. The Popes for the first time in the history of Rome,
of popes of former times, they had nothing to do with ca- had placed his church by the side of an establishment, end
bulks of the present day. lie believed, in reference to the had connected the grandeur of a hierarchy with the volun-
teers of Sardinia, there wee • great deal that did nut appear tary principle. (Loud cheers.) Day by day, bit by hit, had
on
the surface, and he would venture to say that the Rome been withdrawing from state encroachment and from
Roman catholic clergyman, whoever he was, was justified Erastian domination, until she had been enabled to present
M his refusal. The Solicitor-General said if they made to the world the spectacle of a pauper hierarchy side by
any new bishops in England they would be on the same side with a large-salaried episcopacy ; that pauper hierarchy
besting as those in Irebusd,and if they made any new bishops recognised and paid by the sympathy of universal Chris-
In Ireland they would he on the same footing as the old tianity—(cheers)—that large-salaried church utterly un-
biehopa. Now as lie (Mr. Fagan) understood the hill, the known, and receiving no sympathy beyond these shores.
effect was not so. The Bequests Act overrode the provision (Hear,
_hear.) 'f he head of this pauper hierarchy WWI a
io the Emancipation Act respecting titles, and in cane- cardinal, a prince of the church, one who would take pre-
queue° Sir Edward Sugilen, and the other equity judges in cedence before our own prince consort in every court of
Ireland, had recognised territorial take, and had acted continental Europe, but he was sent with the wallet of a
upon them. This bill would re-enact the prohibitory mendicant beneath the robes of the cardinal, and dependent
claw in the Emancipation Act. Therefore, as the right upon the alms of those who chose to believe. (Hear, hear.)
hon. gentleman said the other night, the government, if In this Rome hail gone far before the government of Eng-
they believed their Attorney-General's interpretation of the land. (Hear, hear.) She had cast the shadow of a cardinal
law, had no course left but to withdraw the bill, unless truth far down into posterity, and it was one for which
they added a proviso to the clause, that nothing con- those who came after would not be ungrateful. (Cheer.)
Mined in the act should make void any act done She had at last effected this. She had read in England the
bertszky. archbishop or bishop of the Roman catholic banns of a free union between liberty and faith—between
in the United Kingdom of England and Ireland. modern liberty and ancient faith—which on his conscience
bit oven that would not satisfy, and ought not to satisfy, he believed would yet regenerate the world. (Loud and
des people of Ireland. They looked upon this measure, long continued cheering.)
asa la its mildest form, as an insult on the religion of one- Mr. M. MILNES remarked that if he could bring him-
OM of her Majesty's subjects. The noble lord was not self to argue the question on the abstract principles of the
SWIM Of the ferment and excitement this measure had hon. member's (Mr. Smythe) elegant speech, he should be
MOW in Ireland. His (Mr. I.gati's) constituents, he was compelled to take the same view of the ease. He could
MM. were as mild as • summer's sea compared to the wild not deny the premises, and arguing from them, the
imeiteatent in other districts; but they had passed a resolu- hon. gentleman's conclusions were irrefragable. He
time calling on him to vote against the government, no matter could not, however, quite divest himself of all the
what principle was involved, on every oceasiuss. Of course historical bearings of the case ; nor adopt the
onehtentlp. with his own character he could not subscribe to theory he used to meet with in works of poll-
etey emelution of the kind—(hear, hear)—and therefore he tied economy all of which used to begin with—"sup-
bed only the alternative to retire. He only mentioned the pose a man on an island." (Laughter.) It was a great
circumstance to show the excitement and indignation that historical feet that a struggle had taken place, which was
elided in Ireland ; and surely the noble lord must know accompanied by confusion of the gravest possible character;
Met the right hand of his political power was Ireland. The and that it was only after one monarch had lost his life and
paspis of Ireland were now opposed to the noble lord he- another hie crown, until after an alien line of succession
mast he was now against cavil and religious liberty. had been established on the throne, that the victory re-
And why was it that the noble lord had adopted waned with protestant'. (Hear, hear.) The consequence
this course of conduct? Could any man seriously was that there remained a stronghe would not call it
believe that the noblo lord supposed there won any insult dread—but a strong suspicion of the Roman catholics and the
intended upon the part of the Pope of Rome upon this Roman catholic faith—(hear, hear,)—which he believed was
country or upon the crown of England. Why at the very founded on and warranted by historical association. (Hear.)
moment of this change in the ecclesiastical system, he spoke Another clement in the matter was well worthy considers-
ea the year 1110, there was no man more popular in stoke Another clement in the matter was well worthy considcra-
atth.r 1111?, there was no man more popular in ng' tion. There had been long growing up in the people of
boll than was the Pope. Dr. Ullathorne said it was pro- England, in a more decided form than the past had ever
rad that a bishop of London should be ap- shown, a suepicion and dislike of hierarchical authority et-
iolated, but that proposition was rejected because together. No doubt this feeling, combined with the
there was already a protestant bishop. He (Mr. feeling of the people towards Roman catholicism, had had a
Fagan) was satisfied it was • mistranslation of the great deal to do with the late demonstrations. He did not
brief that made • bishop of St. David's. lie believed think it possible to deny the spontaneous character of these
it was never intended that there should be a bishop of St. demonstrations ; and much as he objected to the letter of the
David's. But the noble lord the Foreign Secretary said if noble lord, on the ground that no minister ought to make his
no insult was intended, why did not Cardinal Wiseman go private religious opinion' part of his public policy—(hear,
to Downing-street and communicate to government the hear) —he did not believe that the letter had had any real
intentions of the Pops in reference to this matter. The effect in exciting the people of this country. The subject
noble lord forgot the Diplomatic Relations Bill. He (Mr. Reel( was of so exciting a character that, had not the go-
Fagan) did not forget it : he voted against the bill vernment taken it up, the question, instead of being tossed
in consequence of the second clause. How could as it was like a shuttlecock from one side of the house to
the with any regard to their own dignity communicate the other, would have become a standard of violent and
with government? Was not the Pope of Rome altogether factions opposition, and have been accompanied with greater
ignored in this country? As a temporal sovereign he was danger and difficulty than was now experienced. Lk can-
ignored. The Pope did it indirectly to Lord ]pinto in the mind the object of the bill to be simply this, to assimilate
only way he could do it. He (Mr. Fagan) thought the the Roman catholic bishoprics which had beenen established
noble lord was mistaken in supposing that any one of the in this country by the Pope, in form and in legal condition,
dignity of the Pope of Rome would send sneaking to ,to those at present established in Ireland. The clause of
Downing-street to make this communication. Therefore he ! the act of 1829 had been sufficiently operative in
hold it absurd that this bill should be_peoed to repel an in- " Ireland for all purposes which were intended when
suit upon this country. It was equally absurd W 'appose that act was passed. That intention was simply to
that it was necessary to repel an encroachment on the prero- ' prevent the open and ostentatious use of those
gatires of the crown. As for the 'Queen's supremacy, it titles attached to public documents, and in certain
was not fully admitted as held by the noble lord at the head public forms, whilst acting in antagonism to the claims of
of the government and above two thousand of the clergy the Roman catholic bishops of that country. That clause
with the Bishop of Exeter at their head. (Hear, hear.) In had perfectly answered the purpose. With the exception
Scotland the royal supremacy was not held by any sect of of that very able, but not very moderate, prelatethe
pbAure
hh.
e-
Christians whatever ; and therefore to say that it had been bishop of Tuam, no one had ever attempted, in any
infringed by this act of the Pope was utterly absurd. (Hear, document, to attach the titles of the Roman catholic bishops
hear.) No he would not believe that it was for the pur- in an illegal manner ; and in their late address presented
of protecting the Durham letter that the noble to the crown they had taken the names prescribed by
FL" had brought in the measure. He could law. The object of the bill on the table was simply to
not think that the noble lord was capable adapt the same principle to the new hierarchy estab-
of
any action of that description. (Hear, hear.) Neither lisped
nin England.
a
.iThers h that Therefore itwtasheaamedquestioton
iotf:
did he suppose that it was to gratify the prejudices of the form ;
iid it ‘,. o 1
people of this country. If that, indeed, was the noble lord's In his rescript the Pope represented himself as reclaim.
intention he had signally failed, for every one knew that ing and resuming his own ecclesiastical power in England; '
the measure would never satisfy the people of this country. he declared the acts passed even under catholic sovereigns
(Cheers.) No. Ile could not help thinking that the whole to be all repealed, end he treated England just as though
had proceeded from a kind of morbid prejudice that existed there had never been a reformation, a revolution, or a civil
in the minds of the most enlightened men in this country— war. By that act he re-assumed his full power in England,
the noble lord amongst the rest—agaiao the Roman ca- to the abnegation of our national protestantism and ure
tholic church. (Hear, hear.) The Attorney-General had established hierarchy. Then the titles selected wereor
bade them (the Irish members) beware, for a conspiral the most ostentatious that could be conceived—Westenins-
. wa" on foot against the independence of the Iris ter, connected with all the greatest assosiatio
I Catholic church, and for the purpose of placing the appoint-
want of its bishops in this country. The object of ttrhye''awinctihentrochyliu„Vesm'erf at;lieeparimone..in;ardtionf.thtisedituns6b.
legislation, and
existedßy what i in
agencyc lth
the hon. and learned gentleman was, doubtless, to 1M times, as Ilexham and Soonunrwarwiehl.ch
induce them (the Irish members) to withdraw had the act been performed? A relate
their opposition, but it would not succeed. (Cheers.) ' this country, deficient in no virtue or talent which whheienhiecontutldo
The Irish catholic' had refused with scorn and contempt the.) j give
, it wasn esnevidennt that ono
dignity or;rpowniearnto his...m.llM
Ptrerr and
ottofditheenviteytos'ad their they
ei r o Irmatjahintdbeepeta:tednee.to maChuleeigirs.: cmumltitatisTsuNiV, . ea, able, and good-intentioned, .'an- might
If such a necessity should arise they • ht depend
I_ I forced, through obedience to the Roman catholic system,
himselfbu ta
confusion
oidinotanicald
diaminbciutilotin,
towhiheihs
that the foremost amongst the defenders of the rishUcge°:;ch . into toting Do
would be Archbishop Murray himself. (Cheers.) That
eminent man had been called Isy the Solicitor General an cold bringu'nonthing
cona rev Many members of that house would recollect
" Italian monk ;" but whatever Dr. Murray's country, he that for many years at Rome Dr. Wiseman received kind-
(Mr. Fagan) would infinitely prefer that title to the one nees and courtesy from English visitor, and
distinguished
bestowed oa the Solicitor General last year, that of " a himself, not more for his urbanity ofmaaaerthaa

gen-
to the lettor ;If the First Lord of the

tleman, in

refernng to tne
Treasury, reiterated what bad been previously said in that
house, namely, that it was not to it the agitation that dis-
located society was attributable. But he asserted that,
emanating from the high quarter it did, and at such a
time, and couched in such language, its effect should be
to give to the religious excitement which prevailed a
character of spurious dignity which it otherwise never would
have attained. (Hear, hear.) The hun. gentleman (Mr.
Milnes) next alluded to the 11th section of the Emanci-
pation Act ; but he should have remembered that that
section was a piece of dead-letter legislation, inasmuch as
every Roman catholic bishop in Ireland had frequently
violated it by signing himself archbishop or bishop of
the diocese over which he presided. (Hear, hear.) Vault
had been also found with a rescript of the I'ope, which had
been published. But how had it been published ? They
had the assurance of Cardinal Wiseman that he knew nut
how it reached the public press. But it was preposterounlyab-
surd to think that Pius IX., in issuing that rescript, dreamt
for a moment of conferring territorial power on one of those
bishops whom ho was then appointing. (Hear, hear.) The
rescript would have the same effect whether penned in Ve-
nice or the Vatican, on the banks of the Thames or the
shores of the Tiber. (Hear, hear.) But when he said that,
he would also say there was not a Roman catholic in
England or Ireland who would not be prepared to repel
any real insult offered to her most gracious Majesty, no
matter what quarter it came from. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. member opposite (Mr. Milnes) asserted that the num-
ber of bishops iu Englund was disproportiuned to the num-
ber of catholies ; and that, consequently, a hierarchy was
not needed. Now the real object of the restoration of the
hierarchy in England was this—that the catholics in Eng-
land being weak and few, there was the greater necessity to
protect them against the servility which the misconduct of ,
any future had pope mi;lit bring upon them. (lkar, hear.) ,
Roman catholics had read the history of the papacy
as well as protestants, and were quite as well
aware that there had been bail and infamous
popes as well as men who were distinguished for genius,
piety, and benevolence. (Hear.) Vicars apostolic were
the mere creatures of the Pope ; and therefore an indepen-
dent and constitutional hierarchy was preferable. (Hear.)
That was the object of the hierarchy being restored; and
that was the reason why the catholics of England so fre-
anztly petitioned the Holy See in reference to the restore-
(Hear.) He (Mr. Sadleir) begged to call attention
te a question put to the late Right Rev. Dr. Doyle on his
examination, as well as to the answer cf that distinguished
prelate. The question was: " Pray, if the Pope were to
intermeddle with the rights and allegiance you owe to the
King, what would be the consequence so far as the
Roman catholic priests arc concerned in Ireland?"
The answer of Dr. Doyle was : " The consequence
should - -

would bo that we oppose the Pope by
every means in our power, even by the exer-
cise of our spiritual authority, by teaching the
gospel to the people, and urging them to oppose the Pope
if he interfered with the temporal rights of our king."
(Hear, hear.) He was next asked: " Was there any dis-
tinction between a vicar apostolic and a bishop as to with-
holding a bull or rcseript from Rome ?" His answer was
that " the difference was very material. A vicar depended
as to the existence of his office upon the will of the see of
Rome. Ile could be removed at the pleasure of the Pope,
or the faculties he exercised could be restricted, or limited,
or modified according to the Pope's pleasure, which was
not so with a bishop, who could not he removed. The
bishops held a title to their places; their rights were de-
fined by gospel and canon law ; and they could not be
made to do anything by the mere will or pleasure of the
Pope." (Hese.) That was the security held by bishops
against papal encroachments, which security he (Mr. Sadleir)
hoped they would never surrender. Was the hon. and
learned gentleman (the Solicitor-General) justified in desig-
nating the individual selected to fill the primatial chair in
Ireland an "Italian monk ?" Why the person so designated
had alarger and more influential circle of friends than ;any
other member of the Roman catholic hierarchy in Ireland.
(Hear, hear.) He was educated in Kildare and Carlow,
in Ireland, and from the latter place he proceeded to
the continent to complete his theological studies.
In Rome he was made president of the Irish College, and
whilst there he was the accredited agent between the see
of Rome and the Roman catholic hierarchy of Ireland.
How improbable was it, therefore, that if Dr. Cullen was
merely an " Italian monk," and if he hail not the confi-
dence of the Irish hierarchy, that he would have been the
medium of communication between them and the sec of
Rome. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord referred to the
synod of Thurles, and the conduct of that synod in refer-
ence to the colleges. No man was more anxious than ho
Mr. Sadleir) to see these colleges flourish and expand—
( Chear, hear)—and it was to be jecollected that the disap-
proval of them was a qualitleslonT. They were disapproved
of as at present constituted. (Hear, hear.) The noble
lord would lead the house to infer that the synod
of Thurles had been assembled only for the
purpose of considering the question of these colleges. But
it had met fur a very different purpose. The syllabus of
their meeting contained 29 or 30 heads, which were Pubdi-
vide& into a still greater number. As stated in the Pastoral
of the Archbishop of Cashel, " They were met to uphold
the true faith, and to promote uniformity of discipline."
No question of a temporal nature entered into the conside-
ration of the synod. It was true that the question of edu-
cation was considered, but that question was of a mixed
character, and it was the duty of the synod to consider it
in its spiritual bearings. (Cheers.) The noble lord also
spoke of the reference made by the synod to the unparal-
leled sufferings of the poor, IS calculated to promote hatred
and disuniud. But in his (Mr. Sadleir's) opinion, if the
synod had dispersed without making allusion to the
dreadful cruelty and sufferings of the poor of Christ, it
would have disgraced itself in the eves of the country.
The present bill was stated by Mr. O'flagan to be wholly
inconsistent with the usages of the Roman catholic church
in Ireland. His opinion was confirmed by the opinions of
Mr. Scully and Mr. Close. Though of comparatively little
consequence to England, this bill was therefore of vast im-
portance to Ireland, and he wanted to know what defence
the right hon. and learned member for Windsor (Mr. Hat-
chell), the Attorney-General for Ireland, could offer in its
behalf. He could not comprehend how the right hon. and
learned gentleman could vote for the recitals of the bill, '
when he recollected, as he must recollect, the decisions of
the courts of law in Ireland on the subject. (Hear, hear.)
The measure, whilst it was inadequate to allay the ground-

for his liberality of opinion. He was at one less alarms of the people of England, would excite the pas- 1 The noble lord had, by bringing in this hill, committed
time almost the nu'.y prelate who received with ur- minim of the people of Ireland. Ile should resist the ; political suicide. The Irish Ineath .1., rc-istcul the bill with
banity and courtesy these who were supposed to measure, ll:cause he did not wish that there should be : indignation, and they had a right to do so, Our what had
differ most widely front the Roman court in political mat-' Placed in their parliamentary annals another shameful in e- ; Ireland done that she should be Mewled in such a nea-
ten,nlott wbeasiic,i..d, ttiLtttilt..en.lawin was, to
—anumgst them. M. Montalembert, then proscribed by ntoriul of the legislation by which, to use the words of a ' sure ? (Hear, hear.) The preamble of the 143 contained a
the Roman see, now the advocate for the most ahnaute modern historian, " Ireland haul been cursed—at first by . falsehood, for it accused the Irish bishops of ulsiag what
popery in France. The bill was not without foundation.; the dominion of race over race, and then of religion over 1 tbliee
it was supported by the fact: of the ca.-, and by the public , religion." (Hear, hear.) Xinholpedranetrverr.attellneWtdldi. , every
' opinion of that house ; and he could not but think that , Mr. IL BERKELEY said he was anxious to state why ; speech the noble lord had clearly indicated that it was only
them must have been, in the introduction of the system at 'he reluctantly felt obliged to Prorate himself on this oec3- , the prelude to ulterior measure.. Ile said then that him
1 thin peculiar Moment some influence which they were un- sion from his hon. friends the liberal members from Ireland, ; noble friend had undervalued the crimis in calling it the
1 able to fathom. There was one consideration to and also front those who usually followed the lead of his lion. ; commencement of a struggle, for it was a war and a war in
which Roman catholic memhera should pay some atten- and experienced friend the member for Montrose,with whom ; disguise. They were about to involve theme.ave• in a straws
tion. The number of Esiglish Roman cathaes bore an he usually acted and voted. (Hear.) It was some corium- ; gle with Ireland which would he prejudicial to both counntries.
entirely different proportion compared with the new . lotion however to him to know that he had an his side the
1 Some honourable gentlemen were for a more stringet ma-
-1 hierarchy, from that born= by the Irish people to their 11134V4 and millions to whom they so constantly appealed. ' sure—they would have all the terrors of priettionire brought
hierarchy; and there was wanting in England that public . (Hear, hear.) He should support the measure belorc the 'to bear against the aggression—but did they not know that
opinion amongst the Roman catholic laity which was very . boner., because he consid-red the papal bull to be an in- 1 the prietnunile was of no more worth than a phee of blank
' usefulte in modifying the pretensions and power of the 1 salt to thetemporal and spiritual supremacy of the Queen. paper? In 1 i 92, while Lord Portarlingtott was e.dripLiininq
priesthood. The Roman ca-holic hierarchy in England I (Hear, hear.) He considered that an act of parlia.nent was, in the Irinh House of Commons that the catholic, were not
need not be regarded as so entirely essential 118 that necessary as a record of the opinions of the people of Eng- 1 grateful for all that hod been done for them, and were fun.
of Ireland; hut to attempt to limit the operations land, and to prevent, if powsible, n recurrence of the aflame. 1 tering sedition, the l'rime Minister was in communicatimt
!of any hierarchy, in Ireland or elsewhere, by saying In his opinion the merit of the measure wan, that whilst it , with the Pope. and notwithstanding the act or I•nrumim.
' that on certain subjects they should not assemble or was likely to have this effect it contained nothing like per- receiving a letter of thanks from the Vatic in for his cant
I discus., would not only be extremely unjust but totally fin- secution, that it steered a middle course between the of the interests of the Holy See and of the Irish
passible. Synodic action meant nothing more than a act of I bigotry of Exeter-hall and the übleefitr tartar. of the right • people—and he believed if the secrets of Downing .
1
gentlemen, invested with certain power., meeting together hon. baronet the member for Ripon. (Hear.) It appeared street were exposed, it would be found that the
H
and agreeing upon certain subjects. ow that could be Ito him that the church of Rome haul been waiting for the minister had often been in communication with the Pope.
prevented by law he was unable to conceive. They might 1 last ten years with its mouth wide open in the hope that It was manifest front the tenor of the documents received
be driven to do in o,•eret what otherwise they would have I the church of England would fall into it. (Laughter.) The from the Holy See in the time of Geo. 111. that the appoint-
done openly ; mid if there were any danger this would in- Pope had shaken the tree, but had only brought the un- went of the Roman catholic bishops re-toed with the Pope,
finitely Mere:tee it. (Hear, hear.) Much had been said ripe fruit on his head. (Laughter.) The Pope had ample and yet, although we paid her Majesty's minist. re Mr tell-
about the Synod of I :lurks :he believed that in no other cause to suspect a falling-off from the church of England. ing the truth, had they told the people of England the
assembly of the heads of any religions denomination in this _ The noble lord the member for Bath had shown very con- truth in the matter of the appointment of Catboat Wise-
country would there have been found so many advocates of elusively that the papal aggression was owing to Puseyism. man and his colleague,. ? (hear, hear.) It moreover up-
ocular education as had been found in the: Synod of (Ileur, hear-) The people of this :smarty had no liking for pared from the documents to which lie renyrcul that the
Thuile.. (Hear, hear.) Ho owned that this measure Puseyiem or popery. Neither of the words were popular, canons and discipline by which. the Roman catholic church
would in some degree affect the civil liberties of the people and he believed the former was leas popular than the latter. was governed were the same now us they had e tinted in all
of this country; soul on that ground it was essential that it (Hear.) The people looked on l'uneyism and popery as times and in all parts of the world, and it. tiny had been
should he founded on a brood hada Ile could not bring having the same relation to each other as a grub laid down by the Council of Trent. Hit were not so dark,
himself to neglect entirely the opinion. of his constituent', as and a butterfly. (Laughter.) Puseyisin they looked he should like to survey the pallid cheeks of her Majesty's
was done by many hon. members ; and it was a curious phc- on as the chrysalis of popery. (Great lauglder.) ministers (laughter), in order to gee whether he had not
nomenon that those member. who appeared montto disregard It had nothing more to do than to cast off its skin and ex- succeeded 111 raining a bluish. (Loud laughter.)
the opinions of their constituents were the very members pond its wings in order to become full blown popery. It lie feared that if this bill were passel, disloyal symptoms
who, on questions in which they happened to agree with their was evident from the quotation made by the noble lord that would again be evoked, that the own in the gullenes, would
constituent., Were continually referring to those opinions. Dr. Wiseman contemplated, in the year 1841, a union of be heard clapping for Mitchell and O'Brien, and that the
Whenever he haul felt it necessary to (Ida from his consti. the church of England with the church of Hume, for he at language of the poet would be quoted:
Went., in declaring his own opinion he had always asserted that time said that there was a growing love and affection A
tholehig
John aow. eota a wind
awy,
ay.
day,
their.. After all, this was entirely
.a question of public for the rites and ceremonies of the Roman catholic church, For swing
opinion. Ile dick not lalieve the hill would satisfy the and expected that at no distant day the Anglican (Loud laughter.) lie entreated hon. nu others to recollect
people of England, but it was all the legislature could do, elturch would forsake the errors of that church anul seek that Lord Castlereagh, as the representative of the King
and all it ought to do, to eatinf them. This bill would for refuge in the church of Rome. (Hear, hear.) had promieed the Irish people catholic emancipation as the
not content that public opinion, for it went far beyond any- When he had seen in all the churches where l'uneyite mime of restoring public tranquillity. Tiled promise, how-
thing the bill could do. Should the result be, as he feared clergymen were to he found the rites and ceremonies of ever, had not been fulfilled by the English minister until
it would, the übrogation of tho act of 1820, and the the Raman catholic religion—when he had seen, its signs 30 years afterwards, and therefore the contpaet made with
exclusion from parliament of men of the highest merit, of the times, charity tool mercy masquermling in the the Irish people at the period of the union had virtually been
execlletwe, and distinction, on account of their religious streets in Roman catholic attire—mud when, wherever tlestntycil. The noble lord (Ituseell) hail referred to a Henry
opinion:, the blame must rest on this untoward act of these protestant fungi had arisen, the good ohl terms, otatt„„, who haul once had a stoat in that house.
the court of Rome, which, by unreasonably provoking the "morning service" and "earning service" had been (Laughter.) A comparison between the two Henry Grat-
public opinirm of this country, would go far to preveut all changed to matins and vespers—(laughter)—this was, tans would not he appropriate—(langliter) -•-but he could
the good which the act of 1813 contemplated. 'this was a he knew, the ease in Bristol, in Manchester, and in tell the noble lord that though Ursa alojor was gene,
result which he contemplated with great pain, believing Liverpool—was it wonderful, then, that the Pope, in- Ursa Minor was still lat—(great lauglitt 1., -and as Ursa
that it was only by a fair representation of all opinion!, rc- formed of all thin by Dr. Wisetnau, should have enter- Minor haul a tongue (he would net say ti, th, 1,,r he da
ligioue or otherwise, that the national welfare could be tinned strong hopes that the English church was about to not wish to lacerate the noble lord more than the nobla
secured. It was not by this legislation, nor even by exclud- renounce its errors ? Why, the Archbishop of CanterhurY lord haul lacerated himself), the government and the
lag catholic members front parliannett, that the progress of would have acted eimilarly under similar cireuinstanevi• house should hear what his (Lr. Gentian's) opinions
the catholic religion could be resisted—that question lay far Suppose tidings had reached Lambeth palace that in the were. (Continued laughter.) The noble lord had
deeper, in other regions of thought and intelligence. Ile Roman catholic cathedral of St. George's the candle- referred to illustrious mantes, hoping that the connexion of
haul no doted as to the ultimate result of the contest ; but it sticks and candles had been removed—that the font his own with these would save him from lii,..gritte ; but it
would continue long, and coulduntly be won by the extension of holy water was dry—that the mysterious bell had been suggested that he (Lunt John Russell) should
of education, by the universal assertion of truth, and by clear- had ceased to ring; and that the priests had put away their appeal to the living. The name of Plunked had been
ing away everything that obetrurted the progress of the splendid lace garment+, and adopted the surplice, what mentioned; but he (Mr. Grattan) advised the noble foal
human mind. Let the people of England appeal to those conclusion would the Archbishop of Canterbury hove arrived not to refer in that quarter. He did not deserve a clutrac-
influences, and Ise with them content; and should thin re- at ? Why, that Dr. Wiseman was approaching the church ter, and he would not get it. (Laughter.) The hon. mem-
milt be hastened by the unfortunate art of the Pope, in- of England ; and could they have blamed the archbishop tier proceeded, amid loud and reiterated cries of " Divide,"
weal of regretting, they would have reason to rejoice in it. if lie had put forth his holy crozier, and seizing Dr. Wise- to speak of the general state of Ireland at the pm stilt mo-
(Hear, bear.) man by one of his red leg., helped him into the protestant went an indicative of the danger likely to arise from the
Mr. SADLEIR (who mac along with about half the sheepfold? (Laughter.) There was sufficient evidence passing of the proposed bill. The catholic, of the south
members on the opposition benches., including Sir F. that he had correctly represented the Pope's view. Let were loud in the expressions of their opposition to this mea-
Thesiger) said the last speaker had fully answered bin owe them consider the boastful exultation with which the Roman sure ; and as the protestants of the north were becoming
reasous fur supporting the bill. Ile deprecated the catholic hierarchy received the intelligence of this move- daily more in cartoon 011 the question of tenant right,
wretched spirit of religious bigotry which had so =forte- mcnt on the part of the Pope. As to the ques- he warned the house not to trifle with the people.
nattily characterised that debate. The hon. gentle- tem whether enough was being done, he held that it was Mr. GRANTLEY BERKELEY did not rise to Menet-
mun (Mr. Milnes) haul admitted that there was a not enough. The protestant, of England, wishing the her the debate with any argument on any mphr iininedi-
hatred of popery in England. No doubt of it, and noble lord to act up to the spirit of his letter, called with atcly before it. (Laughter.) Ilc repented, hi. would attempt
this constituted a great dittivulty in the way of legislating one voice for a reform of the Church of England. (Hear, no trash arguments in an exhausted discussion. Ile simply
foracuminunity consisting of both protestants and catholic. lien.) lie knew that to many lion. gentlemen the very rose to repudiate a most unwarrantable attack which had
The hon. gentleman (Mr. MiMes) informed the bowie that word reform appeared terrific; but the reform which lie bcenmade, a few nights ago, in that hotter, upum the Roman
the people of England had a horror of bishops which err- would point to was very simple. Let the protestants of catholic faith—an attack which he held to he most disgrace,
tainly should he consoling to the Roman catho'lics of Eng- England have a defined rubric and a defined ritual, and flit to that holm. Ile rose, sin an indignant isrigestant—
land and Ireland. Nevertheless he (Mr. Sadleir), as a let it be made penal for any clergyman to attempt to engraft (laughter)—to repudiate emphatically such aid as had been
Roman catholic, could assure the hon. gentleman that that the rites, ceremonies, or doctrines of any strange church what- offered to their glorious protestant cause by the hon. mem-
church could not efficiently perform its sacred functions waver upon the ritual and rubricof the Church of England. bet- (Mr. 11. Drummond) for West Surrey. (Laughter, and
except through the agency of ri. hierarchy. The hon. - (Hear.) The laity molt stand forward and insist upon this. erica of " hear, hear.") Ile inaintaincil that the • speech
I.
. .. . . _ . _ _ Well did Dr. So' 'et. Dean of Bristol-sind in mentioning - - '• -
. _ - _ - _ . slier was adi

Dr. Elliott,
led

spoken by that hon. menths
that • brought undo.

liogruc

to nny cal
it of on.

that was ever brought u...er liberate... anv
scmbly. (" Hear, hear," and " Question.") le he
was interrupted, he would adjourn the debate. Had
they not heard, when superstition was spoken of,
that there were persons iu West Surrey win denied
—(here a storm of calls for a division, and to the
question, rendered the hon. gentleman totally unheard foe
some time. He concluded, us we understeol, by saying
that the charges made by the hon. member for West Surrey
were as false as they could possibly he.) If he (Mr.
Berkeley) voted for the measure before the house, it would
be simply on principle, not because he thought the
measure efficient or competent to cope with the difficulty
against which it was directed, but because he thought
some sufficient legislation was due to the protestant religion
in this country. (Divide.)
Lord CASTLEREAGH (who was indistinctly heard
throughout, owing to the noises and impatienee which
prevailed) said that he was naturally indispie.ed to enter
upon a subject so painful as that now before the
house, and he should not have wished to put himself
forward, being sensible he had nothing to add, had he not
presumed that his constituents would expect that he should
shortly express his opinions. Ile trusted, however, that
even if warmed with the subject, nothing would fall from
him that could wound the feelings of any one. With his
catholic fellow-countrymen, so far as religion was can-
, evened, he could have no sympathy. There was a
wide gulf between them—a great difference of opinion—
and he had too pure an attachment to that apustolicid branch
of the church to which he belonged, and which he loved.
to hare any religious sympathy with those who entertained
different opinions. But while he differed from their views
he could hold out the hand of good fellowship to them.
Within those walls he had stood side by side with them in
defence of civil and religious liberty. The house should reflect
that the measure was against the voice of the whole people of
Ireland. The noble lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
had said, with respect to the hill, that it was a small mew.
sure, and that he would not vote for it if it contained any
principle of intolerance. Ile did nut, however, think that
the judgment of the noble lord upon the bill was upon the
whole a fair one. The noble lord could nut have forgotten
the demonstration of the bur of Ireland, and in fact the
measure appeared to satisfy nobody, and there was
something is the mode of passing the bill that was peculiarly
obnoxious. It was the reactionary policy of a transition
ministry. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord was here rendered
completely inaudible by the hum of conversation in the
house. We understood him to rebuke the tone and temper
of acrimony which had pervaded the 4:SC11,4011, only to
satisfy and flatter the protestant feeling of England. Such
a tone and temper, he believed, could never lead to any
good in discussing any question. Ibis 01 • • was, that it
would be impo,ible practically to cat out this

the deli

to carry .
He had now only to say, that convinced as he was
of the impolicy of this measure—a measure which satisfied
no one in this country, and which would irritate, annoy.
and disturb Ireland, he should certainly give his vote
against it.
Mr. A. B. HOPE rose amid loud and continued cries of
" Divide, divide, " " Adjourn, adjourn ;" but scarcely
a complete sentence of what he uttered reached
the gallery. He continued with great pertinacity
to address the house for the space of 15 minutes,
during which the excitement at times almost reached
a tumult, and the noises were of the most vehement and in-
congruous character. The cries, however, et " adjourn,
adjourn," and "divide, divide," were moo prominent, the
latter predominating. We understood the hon. member to
express his thorough hostility to the bill before the house,
and to denounce it as opposed to the principles of civil and
religious liberty. He said that the chief difficulty of mem-
bers on the ministerial side of the home was, whether to
praise the measure for being competent, or praise it fur being
incompetent. (Laughter, uproar, and erica of "Divide,
divide.") If there was any insult connected with what was
called papal aggression,the insult had come from the Pope, and
the bishops were comparatively the innocent parties.
(Great uproar, and cries of " Divide, divide," " Adjourn,
adjourn.") They must recollect, that if the Pope imposed
any duty on the vicars apostolic, they were bound by their
allegiance to him to carry it out—(continued uproar—Mr.
Hope persisting with his speech in the midst of the Babel
of sounds. At this stage, the renewed mid strenuous at-
tempts of the Speaker could not secure for the hon. mem-
ber a hearing—the noises continued as loud and as
numerous as before.) Supposing some question of European
interest should arise, in which it would be nece:sary for
them to enter into an entente cordiale, it would be impossible
for them to do so provided tho bill at present before the
house were on the statute hooks. (Loud and continued
uproar, which continued until the hon. gentleman reached
the last sentence of his address.) Having opposed the mea-
sure which had been introduced with its three clauses, he
was now prepared to oppose it, with its one clause, as a
measure of a petty character, disgraceful to the magnani-
mity of this country, discreditable to the civilisation of the
Anglo-Saxon race, and utterly repulsive to that system of
toleration which they professed to have adopted. They
must abandon such a course of legislation as this measure
indicated if they were not prepared to make this nation
sink amongst the lowest of the earth—if they were not will-
ing to have it a nation dealing in expediency, fertile in
shams, and sterile in those great principles of policy which
ought to guide an enlightened and civilised country.
(Laughter and uproar.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE, amid loud and reiterated cries of
" divide, divide," moved the adjournment of the debate.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I think that hon. members
must admit that the debate has been carried on •
sufficient length of time to enable the house to come to a
decision on this measure. (Hear, hear.) I find that 28
members of this house have spoken against the bill, sad 22
for it ; and we have, I think, heard the ablest arguments
which can be adduced against proceeding further with
the debate on the second reading. Although we added
six days' further debate, I do not think we could elicit
much more. (Hear, hear.) I do trust, therefore, that if
there be any hon. gentlemen who still wish to address the
house that they will do so now. (Cheers, and cries of
" divide, divide.")
Mr. MOORE, who was interrupted at every sentence
by loud cries of " divide, divide," said he took the
liberty of informing the noble lord at the head of the
government that there were a great number of hon.
gentlemen still anxious to speak, and when they re-
collected that the Irish members had had but a ray