The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-28 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 28, 1R53.

owing to the general feeling that their interests were the
same as those of all other classes, whatever their station and
influence in the country. He should regret to see their,
lordships adopting any mode of obstructing a measure which
was generally approved by the country. If they were to
take this course, it could have no practical results beyond
throwing discredit upon the inquiries of the committees.
Lord ST. LEONAItDS said: Pass this tax as it stood,
and it would be tantamount to effecting a mortgage upon
every man's property, fur a mortgage was nothing but a
charge upon an estate, audible tax was precisely the same.
(Hear, hear,) How was the tax to be raised, and by
what machinery was it to be collected ? A more odious
tea could
would never be out of their lordships' houses. He would
come after a death, and examine the settlements. Every
man's settlement would be ransacked by a public officer in
a public office. The officer must call on the death of any
member of a family to know the nature of the settlement.
The inquisitorial nature of the income tax was nothing to
that of the tax now proposed. The banker had his book
to show when bills became due; the tax gatherer here
would have his book to tee when succ.ssions became due.

there should be a differential duty as against land, bat
that a difference should be made between permanent and
precarious incomes.
The Duke of ARGYLL—WeII then, there was to be
a differential duty as against realised property, of which
land formed a great part. If any change had taken
place in the legacy duties, it would evidently have been
a change in the direction now proposed. The proposal of
the present government on that subject was the centre key-
stone of the whole arch of their financial policy—it was that
around which all the other propositions clustered. He had
no hesitation in saying that the differential income tax as
against land would have exceeded in amount the proposed
imposition of legacy duty, and it was to be remembered
that this legacy duty might then have been added.
Their lordships then divided--
For the motion.

Contents—Present 57
Proxies
Non-Contents—Present
Proxies 65-139

Then all the property must be valued at a very great
(Hear, bear.) One of the most enormass establishments
must be set up to carry on all these operations, with re-
ferenez• to all the property in the kingdom. What would
become of the sanctisy of private lie under such a bill ?
Time had perfected the mode by which a man could now
enjoy property under settlement, but all that would be put
an end to by the proposed measure. Look also at the
number of offices which must be created, and the great
patronage it would give to the government. Again, was
Zr. land in a position to which they ought to impose such a
tax on her ? Under the Encumbered Estates Act, numbers
of estates had been sold, which the ponseisnrs and their an-
cestors had erjuy. d before them. This bill would create n
new midis of dealing with property in Ireland—and the
proprietors is many instances would be obliged to sell their
estates in consequence of this succession LIZ. The cues
mittee now asked for they had a right to have ; and I.y the
time the bill arrived in their lordship? house, it would h.,vc
aff mded them information which would satisfy the country
and themselves as to the course they ought to adopt with
reference to it. (Hear, hear.)
The LOUD CHANCELLOR said that Iris noble end learned
friend having, with the authority which attached to his
name, denounced the measure as and pregnant
with the grossest injustice, he felt it incumbent on him to
explain why he thought that charge to bo utterly groundless
and to rest on no founds:ion whatever. The noble and

Majority against the motion l3
The other orders were disposed ot, and the house ad-
journed at a quarter to

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRTDAY, MAY 27.

The SPEALZ took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

- . .
The following bills were severally read s third time and
passed:—Caledonian Railway (conneetinz branch with
Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway. &c.); North and South
Western Junctioii liallway (Hammersmith); Sunderland
Dock ; Victorii (London) Dockswith an amendment);
and South Eastern Railway (Reading eatension, &c.)
DURHAM ELECTION COMMITTEE.

-
On the order of the day for swearing the above com-
mittee,
Mr. T. EGERTON moved that the name of Mr. R. W.
Duncan, member for Dundee, be omitted from the list' on
the ground that the hoe member had already served for
upwards of am• nth on a railway committee, and his pre-
sence was still necessary on that committee.
Sir J. TROLLOPE 'lid not mean ti oppose the present
motion, but hoped that it would not be drawn into a pre-
cedent. The witnesses in the Durham case must neces-
sarily be brought from a great distance, and thus loss
might accrue to the parties from any change in the arrange-
ments.

learned lord who spoke last, and those who preceded him,
objected to it—first, because it included hind in the legacy
tax ; and next because it embraced not only successions com-
ing on deaths derived from wills or intestates, but also suc-
cessions coming from settlements. It was im;xirtont to sepa-
rate those two considerations. And first he would ask, was
there any injustice, any inexpediency, in /subjecting land to
the legacy duty, in the same way as personal property ?
Was it unjust when they were imposing a tax on one
species of property to impose it on all ? (Hear,
hear.) Why should it not be taxed? Prima facie,
when they were imposing that which was a property tax,
whatever name they might give it, whether it was land,
tithes, money in the funds, stock in trade, or whatever it
might be, justice presumed that they should tax it all as
equally as might be. (Hear, herr.) But let them get rid
of a legal difficulty which attached to all subjects of that
kind. It was said to be unjust. Now, if it was meant that
cases might be suggested in which there would be an in-
equality of burden, he would concede it. Would they, how-
ever, tell him to which of their taxes that would not apply ?
Was it in the nature of things to have absolute justice as
connected with any possible tax ? Nobody could pretend
that the income tax was absolutely just. Every subject of
taxation was liable to the same difficulty. They could only
aim at arriving at the nearest approach to justice, and surely
that would ho to impose a property tax as equally as they
could en property of all descriptions; and the injustice
would be the other way. (Hear, hear.) Reference had
been made to Mr. Pitt's measure in 179 G. Now, he did
not feel the necessity of falling back on authority ; but it
was nevertheless true that Mr. Pitt proposed to levy
his legacy duty on realty as well as personalty,
but he was obliged to yield to the opposition
which was raised against it. And it was said he
substituted the land tax of 1798, making that tax
perpetual. Why, the land tax was imposed by William
II , and was renewed every year. Everybody knew it was
coining, and Mr. Pitt's sole object in making it perpetual
was to give the option of redeeming it. It was a poor ar-
gument, indeed, to fall back upon the land tax. It was
called a land tax, and was a sort of local tax, each district
being bound to raise a certain sum of money ; and the con-
sequence was, that instead of its being now an equal tax,
the inequalities were so absurd, that in some parishes it was
241. in the pound, whilst in others it was 2s. So that, to
refer to the land tax as anything that ought to be followed,
seemed very absurd. But his noble and learned friend said
that Mr. Pitt did not propose to tax children. True, be did
not propose it in 1796, but he did at a later period, and it
was clear what his views were on the subji et if he could
have carried them. But was that all ? Feeling the injus-
tice of what he bad been driven to in 1796, be endeavoured
to get out of it in 1805, not, it was true, by putting a legacy
duty on land, but, going as near to it as he could, he im-
ps* a legacy tax upon all money that was charged upon
lead, and upon all estates that were devised to be sold, and
be made them pay the same as if they were personal pro-
perty. But then it was asked what was to be
done in reference to a party succeeding to an estate heavily
mortgaged ? And it was said, " You never could impose
the tax." Why this novel tax hod been for a long time in
sxi tense upon a large portion of the property of the
country ; the leasehold property was all subject to thiktax.
(Hear, hear.) All property renewable—property held
under deans and chapters; and it applied to nearly all the
house property in Loadon—(hear, hear)—as well as to a
considerable number of properties that were originally
mortgages for a long term of years, and had become ahem-
lute. To such property the injustice, if it were so, applied;
and it was an injustice to tax his leasehold house, whilst his
neighbour's freehold house escaped the duty. (Hear, hear.)
There was another injustice: the present legacy duty was
imposed oil the absolute value of the property in leaseholds,
but the present bell would set that right, the calculation
being made upon the annual value. Having
disposed of the first part of the subject, be
thought it was equally clear that there would
be no injustice in extending the legacy tax to what was
called succession—that was, making parties pay
the tax not only on property which came
to them by the will of a party, but by settle.
ment. Why should it not be so? Uis noble and
learned friend and himself, as lawyers, looked at the matter
very differently from the way in which the country regarded
it. The tax upon personal property, whilst real property
was exempt, was felt to be an injustice ; it was benefiting
the richer classes by exempting them from a tax which fell
on the poorer classes—(hear, hear).—and that was the feel-
ing which prevailed most extensively in the country. (Hear,
hear.) There was no distinction in principle whether pro-
perty was given by will or settlement. It was a property
tax at the time the party succeeded to the inheritance ; and
whether it was by arrangement made by his parents in his
lifetime or by will, he saw no reason ion principle why the
tax should not be levied. (Hear, hear.) But it was com•
''t would

After a short conversation,
Mr. DUNCAN by no means wished to oppose his per.
sons' convenience to the exigences of public business. If
the houso released him he should feel much obliged, but if
not, he should of course bow to the decision of the house.
The motion wu then agreed to, and the committee

SWOIII.

The following committees were sworn at the bar. Clare
County, Liverpool, and Sligo.
BURY ST. EDMUND'S ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Mr. STRUTT moved that the hon. member fur
Tewkesbury be discharged from attendance on this com-
mittee, on the ground that he was already on one or two
committees which would be much inconvenienced if he
were withdrawn.
After a few words from Sir F. T. BARING,
Mr. THORNELY suggested that members who had
valid reasons for declining attendance on election com-
mittees, ehould write to the general committee of elections,
stating their reasons in order that other arrangements
might be made.
This motion was also agreed to, and the committee sworn,
as was also the Peterborough committee.
BLACKBURN PETITION.
The SPEAKER informed the house that he had re-
ceived a letter from the agent to the petition against the
return of M. J. Fielden, E.q., informing him that that
petition would not be proceeded with.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
THE LATE DOCKYARD PROMOTIONS.
Mr. HIGGINS gave notice that when the evidence taken
before the committee on the late dockyard promotions was
circulated and had been in the hands of merrbers a sai-
-1 cient time for them to consider it, he would call the atten-
tion of the house to the subject, ant submit a motion thereon;
but until the case of Lieutenant Eoglefield, which bore
upon those promotions in some degree, had been reported
upon, he should not be able to state the precise terms of
his motion. He might, however, observe that it would not
have reference merely to the conduct of individuals, but
would apply generally to the proceedings of the late board
in regard to all matters referred to the committee.
RETURN.
Sir H. MADDOCK moved for •• Copies of all petitions to,
and order of her Majesty in council of all memorials pre-
, seated to the President of the Board of Trade ; of all cor-
respondence addressed to the President and to the Secre-
tary of the Board of Trade ; and of statements submitted
' with such correspondence, or abstracts of such statements,
and of all correspondence addressed by the Board of Trade
to various persons in relation to an application made on be.
half of the promoters and the provisional committee of the
London, Liverpool, and North American Screw Steam
Ship Company, between the month of September,
and the month of April, 1813, for the grant of a Loyal
charter of incorporation to the said company."
Agreed to.
ISLE OF MAN.
Mr. EWART asked when it was probable the measure
for regulating the fiscal duties of the Isle of Man would be
sent over to the island ?
Mr. J. WILSON mid the bill was in course of prepara-
tion and would shortly be forwarded.
CUSTOMS ACTS.
To reply to Mr. W. Snows,
Mr. WILSON stated that the bill for consolidating the
Customs Acts and for regulating the management of the Cus-
toms department was in a forward state, and he hoped to be
able to lay it on the table in the course of a fortnight.
DRAINAGE COMMISSION (IRELAND).
In answer to Col. DONNA,
The same Hos. GENTLEMAN stated that the report of
this commission might be expected without much further
delay.
THE AFFAIRS OF THE PORTE—THE HOLY
PLACES.
On the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn to
Monday nest,
Mr. DISRAELI rose and said—l am most unwilling
to take advantage of this motion at any time for the
purpose of entering into a general discussion upon any
subject, and nothing but a sense of public duty
would induce me now to take this opportunity of adverting
to the topic to which lam about to refer. In doing so, I
will endeavour to confine myself as much as possible to an
inquiry of her Majesty's government, making one or two
remarks merely in order to bring the auhject to their atten-
tion, and the attention of the house. That subject is, the
state of our relations with the Ottoman Porte. The house
will recollect, that early in the spring of the present year,
considerable alarm was created, not only in this country,
but in other states of Europe, by the arrival of an extra-
ordinary embassy from Russia, at Constantinople—but
that alarm was in some degree allayed, by the confident
declaration of persons in authority, that this mission, though

..
pisined of that the bill -___ put this tie on personal estate apparently commenced with circumstances of great pomp
succeeded to by settlement. That was true, and he thought and urgency, did not after all refer to any subject of general
it to be perfectly just. They should overlook the distinction interest and importance, but merely bad reference to the
as to how the succession arose, whether it came by one mode relations which ought to subsist between the members of
or another. The noble earl (Derby) remarked on the the Greek church, who were the subjects of the Porte, and
hardship of putting the tax on heirlooms ; but perhaps the holy places at Jerusalem. Under that general impres-
he was not aware of the law on that subject. There sion which obtained currency, the public mind assumed, I
was no duty on heirlooms unless they cams to think I may say, an aspect of tranquillity. But it so Nap-
s person who was the absolute posseesor:and could turn theta pened about six weeks ago or a little more, that Col. Rose,
into money. He thought he had shown that it was not who was at that time, in the absence of Lord Stratford, our
unjust to impose a legacy duty on land ; and it muet be svi- ambassador, the British minister at Constantinople—a
dent that its exemption from the tax could not be lusts- gentleman of whom lam bound to say all who have been in
fled. There was another point to which he would for • no- any way placed in connexion with him will bear witness,
moot refer. The noble earl who made the motion had re- thit he is a man of great ability and possessing considerable
fared to the hardship of persons succeeding one after knowledge of tho country in which he has been placed,
another—as, for instance, it might happen that two or in a very responsible position—(bear, hear)--it so
more brothers might succeed one after another, and the happened that about the period I have stated,
legacy duty might be payable several times. Now there Colonel Rose suddenly felt it his duty to tele-
was a clause in the bill which provided that where parties graph to the British Admiral at Malta, requesting the
became entitled to property by succession instead of a le- immediate presence of the British fleet at the Dardanelles,
guy, then before the duty was paid four years should ii being at the same time announced that the French am-
elapse, so that if the possessor died within that time the bassador at Constantinople had despatched a message to the
tax would be paid by his successor. French squadron at Toulon, requesting its immediate pre-
Earl FITZ WILLIAM admitted that it was right that sence in the same locality. These circumstances irllME-
land should no longer remain exempt from taxation to diately revived the alarm that had previously been so pre-
which personalty was liable, and that taxation should 'relent, but those circumstances were, of course, duly con-
equally be applied to settled property. He should vote for sidered by her Majesty's government, and it was generally
the inquiry on the ground that it would assist, not merely
understood that they had, from their knowledge of the facts,
their lordships, but even the government, in coming to a arrived at the opinion that there was no necessity for the
sound conclusion with regard to the merits or demerits of appeal made by Colonel Rose to the British
the proposition. (Hew, hear.) admiral, and the departure of the British fleet
The Duke of ARGYLL said the noble earl who bad just from Malta, which, according to the instructions
sat down would vote, it appeared, for the committee on given to the British admiral, could not take place without
totally different grounds from those which bad been put first communicating with the authorities at home,
forward by a great number of noble lords appetite ; therefore,occurred; and the French fleet arrived in the
distinctly assenting to the principle of the measure in so far vicinity f Constantinople while the English fleet remained
that he was willing to extend to real property and to settled at Malta. Well, sir, the country placing a wise confidence,
personalty an additional tax. The noble mover said he did as I think, in those who ars charged with the responaibi-
not introduce the question as a party one ; but it was impos- lilies of the high office of her Majesty's ministers on such
Bible to deny that the motion was connected with those subjects, did not press the government for disclosures, and
principles which were held by noble lords opposite in seemed inclined to think that the view taken by Colonel
reference to the incidence of taxation on real as opposed to Rose, and upon which he had acted, in his despatch to the
personal property. The loudest cheer which had been British admiral at Malta, had been somewhat preci-
heard in the course of the debate wu elicited by the remark pitate in its character. Shortly *forwards Lord Strat-
that the measure was prompted by a spirit of hostility to- ford, her Majesty's ambassador to the Porte, arrived
wards the land ; and the ground on which the motion had at Constantinople, which he found the Russian
been supported by several speakers was that of the abstract Ambassador Extraordinary had not yet quitted ;
injustice of extending the succession tax to real property. and the question of the holy places was still the subject of
(Hear, hear.) He held that it was utterly impossible for negotiation, and of some anxiety, with those who pave
the house to judge fairly of the effect of the measure as re- their attention to the question, and who were familiar
girded the landed jot' rest unless they considered it in con- with some of its details. Very recently, however, it ap-
nexion with all those financial measures which formed part pears that the question which at Constantinople absorbed
of the budget. He must ask their lordships to recollect the interest of the representatives of the great powers, and
that after the late government had acceded to office they occupied the attention of the Porte, was altogether of a
threw overboard their favourite scheme of the transference different character—and that instead of its being a limited
of the local rates to the consolidated fund ; and that, instead and a mere local einestion connected with the holy places at
of getting rid of the income tax, they actually proposed to Jerusalem and the relations which those subjects of the
resew it in an aggravated form as regarded the land. note who profess the Greek religion necessarily have with
(Hear, hear.) When the present government came into these places, it was announced without any circumlocution
power, they found it namely to review the whole financial , that the Ambassador Extraordinary of Russia had called
position of the country. It was requisite to determine, not ; upon the Porte to enter into a convention which may be de-
afly whether the income tax should be permanent or not, 1 scribed—not to weary the attention of tile house with detriis--
bat whether some pledge should be given to parliament as which may fairly be de.cribeil—as a convention which, if
to the relinquishment of the income cam if it should be in carried into eaccution, would transfer the allegiance of the
the power of the government at some future time. Let not vast majority of the subjects of the Porte in European
noble lords opposite flatter themselvesthat if they had carried Turkey to the Emperor of Russia. (Hear, hear.) Well
theirschema they could have evaded the question of the legacy sir, wh. n this bee ime known, considerable alarm was un-
duty. The :ate Chancellor of the Exchequer, after pro- deub.edlj created, and it has net, as yet, been in any way
posing an allocation of the ininme-tax, whiA acted diffe- allays and and it as announced (I knave not with what au-
rentially as regarded land, and after abandoning his prop- thorits,). that her Majesty's government then felt that
sition with regard to local rates, wound up his statement by CUl..iisei ROM', who had applied at a previous period for the
saying thas the existing legacy duties constituted a mass presence ors British farce, was justified in the course he
of injustice *bid could not long remain unreformed. ruccinmende-!, and that we had sent some ships of war to
(Hear, hear). After proposing a differential income-tax as Coustantinin le. I mention these circumstances in order
against land— that I may place before the house as clearly as I can, with-
The Earl of DERBY—The propoetion Was not that out presuming to give any opinion at present as to what has

transpired. The grounds upon which 1 ♦enturc to ask for
some explanation from her Majesty's government, and,
having so stated the circumstances, I will now put these
two questions to the noble lord. First, I wish to know
whether the English ambassador and the French ausbas-
sailor at Constantinople are at this moment acting in concert

..._ .... ... ..
together, and, if that be the case; then I would wish to
know whether there would be any difficulty en the part of
ker Majesty's government in communicating to the house
the general scope and tendency of the instructions which
they are so in concert together fulfilling. These are the
two questions which I feel it my duty to put to her Ma-
jesty's government, and 1 await with some interest their
reply. (Hear, hear.)
Lord .1. RUSSELL—Sir, 1 will communicate to the
house as much information, in answer to the right hon.
gentleman's questions, as it may be possible to communicate
at present without injury to the public service. The right
lon. gentleman has made a sta:cment, in regard to the
facts which have occurred, that requires some, though not
any material, corrections on my part. The facts are these :
her Majesty's governmeut was informed by the govern
cent of Russia that the Emperor of Russia thought it ne-
cessary to dispatch a special mission, under charge data am-
bassador extraordinary, to Constautinople, to obtain
the confirmation of those concessions which bad
been made at other times to the membere of
the Greek church, in regard to the holy places,
at Jerusalem, and we were informed at the same time that
the Emperor of Russia, emeeiviog that he had occasion to
complain that former concessi ins had been tither withdrawn
or materially modified, by certain orders which had been
issued by the Sultan in February last year, thought it
necessary to require some security that those orders for the
concessions, which were to be then confirmed, should not
again be liable to be withdrawn ; but what the nature of
those securities should be the Russian government, as is
usual in diplentatie transactions, did not state specially to
any foreign po xer. When the Russian Ambassador Extra-
ordinary aeries(' at Constantinople, certain circumstances
which then occurred induced the Grand Vizier to feel
considerable apprehension at what was about to take place,
and lie applied to Col. Rose to ask for the presence of au
English fleet at the Dardanelles. Colonel nose did not—
es the right hon. gentleman has st ited—commuuicate a tele-
graphic
meseage to Malta, but sent a steamer with des-
patches to the Minitel there, requesting that lie would,
after reading them, pet ged with the fleet to the
Dardanelles, es the Grand Vizier wished hint to
do. Admiral Dundee, on receiving these d, spate:in,
forwarded them to London, as it was his duty to do, stating
at the same time that he would await the orders of his go-
vernment before he left Malta. Her Majesty's government
en'irely approved of the discretion which Admiral Dundas
display, il in the matter, and intimated the AMP to him ; and
Colonel Rose having been informed by the Grand Vizier,
within two or three days after he had sent offhis despatches '
to Malta, that there was no necessity for the English fl,et '
leaving Malta, he despatched another steam-boat with a re- '
quest to Admiral Dundas that he would not obey the in-
struction he had previously forwarded to him. I believe
that both Admiral Dundee exercised a wise discretion, and
that Colonel Rose was perfectly justified in this his second
order, that the English fleet should not leave Malta. Well,
the negotiations proceeded, and Lord Stratford, as the house
will well believe, from his great ability, and from his long
experience in diplomatic affairs, an:l from the deserved
weight he has with the persons in authority in Constanti-
nnple,and those who are there entrusted with the missions of
foreign powers, was enabled materially to assist the progress
of those negotiations, and to aid Prince Menchikoff
in obtaining declarations and acts which were considered
sufficient by him, and to which the French Ambassador
offered no material objection. It was to be supposed, and
it was supposed in London and the other courts of Europe,
that this question, which had been most unhappily the
source of occasional difficulty and diff.ireace between the
courts of Europe, and a source of discontent with the
Turkish government for a long time being thus settled,
that the mission of Prince Menchikoff would terminate and
cease. But it so happened that the demands which, in
accordance with his instructions. l'rince Menchikolf made
at Constantinople were such, that although in the opinion
of the Russian government they were no more than were
necessary to secure the fulfilment of those negotiations in
which the prince had been engaged in regard to the holy
places, were in the opinion of the Turkish government, and
in the opinion of her Majesty's ambassador at Constanti-
nople, and also in the opinion of the ambassador of the
Emperor of the French, of a nature which could not but
be considered dangerous to the independence of the Porte,
and u infringing in some degree those stipulations to
which all the powers had agreed by the treaty of 1541.
With respect to what has followed, the government has no
official information ,• the last dispatch received at the
Foreign-office from Lord Stratford, being dated the ninth
of the present month. I can, however, state that there
has been the most perfect accord and union between the
Ambassador of her Majesty and the Ambassador of the
Emperor of the French at Constantinople, the purpose of
both being to maintain the convention, which was agreed
to by the Ambassadors of the great powers in the treaty of
1811. With regard to the second question, I have to say,
that in the present state of the negotiation it would not be
consistent with the ordinary course, or for the good of the
public service that her Majesty's government should at
present produce the dispatches they have sent to Lord
Stratford on this subject. I can only say that they may be
generally described as instructions which leave
very much to his discretion ; but, at the same
time impress upon him, that the policy of
her Majesty's government is to maintain inviolate the in-
dependence and the integrity of the Porte. (Hear, hear.) I
may be permitted to say farther, that though we have no
very recent official informat'on, we have reason to hope
that the Russian government will ultimately ask for no
other securities from Turkey then such as it will he compa-
tible with the authority and the dignity of the Sultan, as
1 sovereign of Turkey, to grant, and which the power of the
' Turkish empire demands. (Hear.)
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

In reply to a remark from Mr. C. BERKELEY,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that government intended to
follow the same course in regard to the Wednesday sittings
as is former yeses—that was, to put government orders on
the paper when necessary, but not to bring them on until
the orders standing in the names of private members bad
been th,