The Express.
London, England, 1847-05-07 00:00:00

maintained that the meaeure went to &grey the
,hope ex
lateness of property in that Country. Some estim f
amount a charge unite the bill might be formed from the
amount actuolly charged at present under the Temporary
Relief Act. He had received a return shoeing that in the
province of Bluster the amount of rase already paid for the
relict of the poor during a period of three months was Ile. in
the pound sterling, being 44i. in the pound on an an-
-111/ft rating, if the annual rating should he pro-
portioned to the amount of rate fixed during the
pact three months. In the province of Leinster, com-
prising a mere favourable portion of Irehind, he found a
return on which he fully and entirely relied, and which •
showed the amount of rate under the Temporary Relief Act
to be from 7s. to 10s. in the pound for the past quarter, or at
the rate of 40e. in the pound on the year. But it was not to
much a question as to the amount of ream, but whet would
be the t fiect produced ea the character and minds of the
Irish people. Considering the Irish character, was there
room to anticipate any alteration in it, after they had begun
to expect to be fed witheut work? Ou this subject he had
received evidence which was equally as al:ruling as the
amount of charge on property. k'row a eleremtan of the
established church, located on the borders of the counties of
Limerick and Tipperary, who had been actively employed
with the Romeo catholic priest of the &evict in
endeavouring to administer the law, he learned " that irons
the enormous length of the lists of applicant* for relief, it
was impassible to ham the truth of all their staternenta.
They eel seemed anxious to enrol their moms for a tatters in
whatever wee giving—there was no shame—co self respect
amongst Uwe ; tater demorolizaties was complete." Not-
withstanding those statements, he (Lord Monteagle) aid not
seek the rejection of this bill ; bat he asked the government,
by whom it was admitted that the measure was perilous, not
to put it on the statute-book in • permanent meat. On this
groan& and in order to raise the common whethee the ma-
aura woe to b. permanent or temporary, he now mimed tes an
mmendment, in the enacting part of the first clause, to infest
'she words " during the time hereinafter to be limited Ilse
gaardians of the poor in every union in Ireland shall have
pose to toAmaßikNeopEroavisionpuppoforrted theirthme ...uslment, and lad-
lief," &e. &c.
Lord
mated his intention, ahou'd it fail, to move an amendment
In the effect that any persons, after the p ming of this bill,
, mho entered into • Mate of matrimony, should have no right
I elestmolves, or thorn dependent or. them, to relief. (Laughter.)
I noble lords ht be surprised at this mammal, he
e mgrottea he seer ''‘fltheen taking away from
'cam gallemwenthal" °I.
this
siduthgere aud4ospettelPeria ee
any person ft e right to relief now enjoyed, tae hill with
The Earl of WICKLOW thought it would have been
would repeal itself.
such a provision as he mentioned,
more judicious sod expedient to have reserved a deci-
sion upon the permanency of this measure until the
num emus amendments on the notice-paper of to-
night had been disposed of, and it wee amertaiued what the
provisione of the b•ll really were. Tree it was that he (the
marl of Wicklow) had given notice of an amendment to limit
the duration of the hill to three years ; hut his reasons foe
intending to make that proposal meted on totally and en-
tirely &Kermit growl& to thewput forwerd by his noble
friend (Lord alonteagle). His (the Earle f Wicklow's) decided
opinon was, that once int reduce a raeastire of this k lad athether
for two or three years, it must become a permanent mosaare.
It was not in order to get rid of out-dour relief that he pro-
posed that the measure should be limited to three ye as, bat,
in order that the attention of parliament might then be
directed to this important subject, and if the bill was found
to work ill it might he remedied. and if it was found beam
finial, parliament might renew it in its integrity. He begged
to suggest to the noble lord that he should withdraw his
amendment vow to let the bill go through committee, and
then see whether it would be netmaary.
Lord BROUGHAM said, if he was to *chime his noble
friend, he should request him not to adopt the advice of the
noble earl who had just sat down. He thought the amend-
ment judiciously framed, although it was not framed in a
spirit of amity to the bill. If he was a friend of the bill he
should oppose the amendment ; luta coming from an avowed
enemy, it war roost judicious. If he was an advocate of the
bill, fie should do what seas milled a blundering thing if he
supported this amendment • but he approved of it, because
it was proposed against what he thought a most impolitic
measure—he approved of it became lie thought it mitigated
the pressure co a very bad measure—he approved of it be-
cause it made it inevitable, that within a specified
time parliament would have to review the measure,
—and because it proposed a course which was pus-
sued in the case of the English Poor-law of 11134,
which was coefemedly an experimental measure. He wee
still of opinion that cilia measure was contrary to all prin-
ciple, and ought not to be permanent.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who was imperfectly
heard) said he was glad that be had heard the obtervetwas
of noble lords who had spoken, before he offered a few words
in explanation of the course which he felt issued to take.
In the first place he must say that his noble friend (Lord
lalenteagle) was perfectly justaled in proposing his amend-
ment at the present time ; and taking the dientsaion at the
beginning instead of the end of the committee. But the
noble and learned lent admitted that this amendment would
compel the home to give an opinion whether the immure
should he temp, racy or permanent 'Mott then knowing
what the bill was—(hear, )rear) —and it called oat the house
to pronounce a judgment without consideration of the
grounds on which thet judgment was to be formed. (Hear,
hear.) The noble and learned lord said he supported the
amendment because it was calculated to defeat the bal.
Lord BROUGIIAM.—To limit it.
The Marquis uf LANSDOWNE.—But Ms noble friend
(Lord Monteagli ) approved of part of the bill, lie had
heard hint say morn than once that to part of the bill he
should offer no opposition, and that part, which was of the
most permanent character, namely, the first clause, which
wee not dependent on the will of the Lord-Lieutenant
or of the poor-la e commissieners, but a permanent clause
enacting that relief should be afforded out of deers to the
nick and disabled, and those whose claims were defined by
it. To this his noble friend offered no opposition, end it
could sot be assumed but that before they came to the end
of the bill, it might be reduced to that part of it which he
approved. The other parts were susceptible of amendment,
and he agreed with the noble earl (Wicklow) that until the
amendments were made, they were not its a condition to
decide whether the measure should be permanent or tempo-
rary. He (the Marque of Lansdowne) admitted thet the
measure was an experiment attended with risk, but it was
(imminent with tl.is to give it a permanent form, because
there was no bill that was not Plaice: to the revi-
sion of parliament. But if a bill which required
new machinery in Ireland to carry it out was made tempo-
rary, and it parliament was to be cempelled in three years to
reconsider it, such a coarse was calculated to defeat its ob-
ject. If a temporary character was given to this measure, it
would render it highly probable that the object of a bin
which he thought was calculated to promote the peace and
welfare of Ireland, would he defeated. lie disclaimed the
idea that although it was a permanent measure it wild not
come under the review of parliament, but he asked their
lordship, not to hold out to the people of Ireland that it was
not intended to be permanent.
After a few woros from Lord WHABSCLIFFE and Lord
BItOU011•11,
Lora STANLEY said that the question resolved itself
into the smallest pesaible compass, and, therefore, their lord-
ships might he sure that he should not occupy their atten-
tion at any length ; but he could not refraiu from expressing
his strong opinion that his noble friend (the Marquis or
Lansdowne) had fared to answer the emends on which his
noble friend (Lord alonteegle) had proposed his amendment
In point of fact,his noble friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
had act denied that this was a measure hazardous in its
nature, introducing a new clue of relief for a new elms of
persons, new authorities, different manricement, and, above
all, the great risk thin, without the greatest circumspection
and care, it would itn. one a burden on the resources of Ireland
which it wallah:neat impartible they could beer. Under these
circumstances, what was it that his noble friend (Lerd Mont-
eagle) prepesed ? He was afraid that he (Lord Stanley) was
exposing himself to the censure of his tolae friend (Lord
Brougham), who was even here just now, but whose move-
ments were no rapid that he was not easily found. His noble
friend said all those who were hostile to the bill would be
guilty of blundering if they dial not support the amend-
ment. lie (Lord Stanley) was nut hostile to the bill.
(Hear, hear.) He had supported the second reading,
and he thought the eircuamtances of Ireland were sack
and the danger unto which she was eximed was so
great, that the rovernment had a right to ask their
lordships to take it into their oonsideratiou. It was not, how-
ever, inconsistent, with a dimmition to support a measure
which was one of doubt and difficulty, to support an amend-
ment for which there were many precedents, and among
others, the English poor-law, and which would enable an ex-
periment of its working to be made. His noble friend (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) said that if it were supposed to be an
experimental measure, its effect would be counteracted.
(Hear, Hear.) lie (LOr) Stanley) did not concur in that
opinion. lie believed the knowledge that the measure was
not permanent, and that every act of its working would be
watched by the legislature, and that it must be again sub-
jected to legislation, would introduce more circumspection
sad fare on the part of the authorities titan if it was at once
sada ppeermanent, and they trusted to chance far its future
atMiment. He could not understand how the noble
steel) (Wicklow) who hail given notice of an mend-
meat to restrict the operation of the whole hill
to three years, without reference to any niodAeadeut
or alterations, should, for what reason it passed hil
(Lord Stanley'sLoompeels., mime to undenstand, oppose the
amendment of , noble friend, which only proposed that a
portion of the most hazardous part of it should be limited to
a Imeriod *Lich he left blank.
The Earl of WICKLOW did not say that he should op-
pose the amendment, he =le recommended that it &end be
withdrawn for the prevent.
Lord STANLEY begged the noble earl's pardon, and was
happy to find that he had misunderstood his speech, sod
that it was not his intention to oppose the amendment,
which, he hoped, hie noble friend would prom to a
division. He (Lord Stanley) cordially moported it,
not in any spirit of hostility to the bill—(hear, henz)—
not with any desire to prevent this experiment being tried,
not with any desire to frustrate the safe working of the bill ;
but because he believed that the further interference of par-
liament would be materially beneficial to its working, and
would impose on parliament the compulsion of revising it
within a limited period, and no to perfect a measure which,
with all its hazards, was calculated to work for the benefit of
Ireland.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN did not consider that the
support of this amendment implied homility to the bill.
(Ilea; hear.) lie had not so muck of hope, but more of
Isar, with regard to thenorking of this measure as acme noble
lords who had spoken ; but if he had felt much less fear as to
its working, he should have supported this amendment, ap the
ground that the bill was a hazardous experiment, and' on 'a • "--
which was admitted both by its supporters and oppou. • . -; I;7' C
hazardous. It was known out of that house thotaat • • 'a ..am‘"
troduced at a period which was toe of diffievlty lii4 . - ~..,,A,A-• -,
was calculated to lead men's judgments
bee rash m '• a: .i`a..•' qi‘s.r.
and it was admitted that it would not •• • falls— • .." M 'at la
the cordial and zealous co-operation of • • • ' •••' "a
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classes tad descriptions, and to be carried into -0,6 i ••;1•11" ...1.
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