The Express.
London, England, 1849-05-08 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 8, 1849.

boost (Chemal_ hums own* intersetr raft sad magni-
Mont latelfeellenfiltmMilit elm resift sea be
warned their WIMP ad 1/14 to lay bowie Mad upon
it. (Hear, hear, sad cheers.) Ae regsrfted Me espouse el
shipindiding, the oak of this onatry was atiftsodall ons-
pined, ear was there any better material fir
this die atlas Atlanta ; bat twenty prised am !inherent
111374“
of same from America sad the Mak whoa owl
to 1061. Maori of 151. sad 101. ; sad while we had to kin
so mush tither hen abroad, the Americans bed wig to
Met their boa sad copper aercas the AthaMb to
week ft up with their timber. But then ler
Minton, an Animism witness—sad it wee reemele.l
able that a gam slumber of the witness* were finelftft
ere, Bata men, Prussians, Dance, Belgians, and se OF
Mr. Mimeos rid that 10a. M. a day was the wages of ebb►
weights I. America ; and whoa silted whether hr would
net pater having ships repaired is this country on ateremit
dire yeses being so mesh lower, be replied that he sever
of employing say man in Ragland demi
his 'hips or in repairing them. Why f
Disonse the work was so much mire expensive. Mark
her.) He now came to seamen's wages, nod m that pat of
the subject be begged their lordships' enmities; be wown
he the very midst of the argument upon which Mee go
Nista. (Owen.) The wages paid to maters in Belgium
amd Holland was dl. a month, in the Baltic 31. The wagim
tti England were 81. 10*.: 81. 10s. for a man who, wording;
to Kr. Mitchell, could not read and write, and 51. for a
relleliell who could do both. (Laughter.) A most rapest-
elis of Liverpool had informed him that he never
pis his tartan less than 101. a month. Bo WWI for the
mesten. Now for the men. The men employed in the
vessels of the Balfe and of Holland had wages varying from
li. 10e. to 11. 15r. per month: in England the average
amount was 31. • and while food in this country cost le. 3d.
per day, in thi other countries to whir* he alluded it cod
Bd. a day. In the United States the wises wife plebs* it
livle higher than here ; but there was tats differentia lieftineft,
the two eases—the Americas put more into seamen than we
de, cad get less out of them. (Laughter) Now, such wool
tho rash of a eemparisen between the ship-building and the
lehMunolgation this mute, and those of hesign carettim.
Any egg who eensidered the relative nunsheee and the
Nat bathe of the two parties concerned, ma whet Molt /ea
Na along with facts and figures, weld ammely fail to Come
so the conclusion that it was impossible kw this
without having protectioa, to enter into ensoundel
dim with the United States and the Balt* eldest in
chips or in sailing them. (Chien.) He had
support, osinket, and aid in his argument term
Ms ucble Mead himself. This very bill
mood the monopoly of the meeting trade by
Oft all British ships should be navigated by a Britisseel;ru,
and that theewburthe of the mews should also be British.
(ahem) If they could obtain such /heap masters and auk
psi sellers ahread ; if they could there have a master Who.
unlike Mr. Mftehsil's masters, could read and writs sad emit
aim" and psebeps work a problem in navigstioa, and ifj
holier they mkt have annum who were not given te grog,
why had net the operation of the bill beta extended to the
fteatine trade ? He salted, why ware they to retain
the properties of three-fourths of British sailors in coasting
womb ? For this reason : they dare not give up that con-
dition. (Chem.) They knew very well how muds depended
en having those cameo, and what would be the consequence
of not bath,' them ; and they knew very well that, not-
withstanding all that they 'might preach to them about free.
trade and the navigation laws, ail that they could tall them,
from Pepys' Diary down to this day, would not pre-
serve to them that invaluable body of men. (Hear,
hear.) He begged their lordships to pante be-
fore they jeopardised the shipping interest. There
were four millioas of tons of shipping navigated by
230,000 mm, and forming a nursery for the navy. What
had bars the' emmegnence of having such a body edema ? A
navy which rode triumphant ow the seas. It war should
busk out, through that vile, ineonsiment, desperate, bed,
false, meddling policy, which touched everything, but
grasped at nothing, in ignorance of the proverb, that if
you'd touch a nettle you must - at the whole if you

- mast grasp
would not be stung—they might, if they punned their Pre-
miere:se, lad themselves involved in war, with the navy
is the mme eitedities as it had been ones before. Pre
vim to that eerie* at immortal victories which held
top lo undying fame the names of oar St. Vincente,
end Noises, our Daman" and Howse, which were yet
=by the victories of them in w hose primes he then
elteers)—Shore were at one moment only 18,000
men la the navy. In about six weeks thirty.five thousand
were added to the amber. Whence came that supply ?
°stably not from amongst letdowns.. A few yeas after
ihey wen driven by hard fate to adopt the ruinous policy of
wig what were celled quota men from the different
meidles, gad the sue that rose on the only disgrace which
the Meek navy had ever sustained. At the period of
widdi be epolv, there were 160,000 names belonging
to the mercantile marine ; they had now nearly double that
number. but as there were 33,000 men in the royal navy the
relative propertion remained the same. In these times he
was a bold man who would tikes upon himself to meat
that the peace of Europe would not be disturbed. (Hai,
bear.) Heaven forbid that his (Lord Bramble's) meet
fears should ever be realised ; but when he Weed meet the
channel he saw peace suspended, as it were, on popular hol-
ing, compressed by the military force et one great eaptele.
He knew very well why troops had been sent to Civita
Vowed& It was not on account of the Peps; it
was not for any reason of state policy—as, for era
ample, because Austria our marshier mitbaroard
k wm biases. the French minister and the French
Vitt dung not refuse to the French people
uponi which they were bent—a military proceeding.
No man would look upon Italy without some feel-
ing ei affielliniol4 Then, when he looked to Ger-
Emmy. hes Ihe Baltic to the Adriatic, evi
to to a disposition to shake exist in-
rrire
tte
there seamed
siltation', and to admit the roman's g thrones The as-
tiara had marched in force to save Hungary from its mob
rulers and its Polish agitators. But who would secure this
country against the consequences of all thee movements?
(Hear, hear.) Who could predict that three months hence
Europe would be in profound peace ? Was it in 1849, the
year succeeding the year of revolutions, and when the
waves of agitation had not subsided, that they were
to sweep away that by which their navy had been
created and maintained ? He called on his noble friends,
the advocates of this measure, to show any one reason
which made it necessary for them to take this step this year
rather than the next, or why they should take this plunge
Into • gulf from which return was absolutely impossible.
(Hear, hear.) It was said this measure is neesmary to crown
the pillar of free trade. It had nothing to do with free
trade. (Hear, hear.) Talk of its being the last crowning
measure of free trade. Why any person who looked into
the bill would see that it lilt the coasting trade untouched,
which constituted two-Weds of the whole measure. (Hear,
boar.) More than that, it also left the restraints on their
seem n =trachea , which was found to be the most onerous and
burdensome portkn of the navigation laws to their madam.
He desired no success to any party whatsoever except to this
who in honesty, with manfolness, and without any regied
to pressure from without, did their duty to the Queen end
the country. (Hear, hear.) But when he found that these
for whose beuefit it was alleged that this seesse wee pro-
pounded declared that they would receive on bout et ail
from it; when he knew—es he warned the hew Mt be
the ease—that this measure must immediately owl
increase slavery and the slave trade—(hers, C—. 17
)
because whatever would enable Swedes, whatever Weald
enable Danes, whatever would enable Belem, whitlow
maid enable Americans, to bring Brazilian and Cuban
sugar into England must inereme the slave trade— (hear)—
must Inatome the African slave trade ; and when that consi-
deration was poured into the bitter cup in order to sweeten
this messure, again he said this was not a question on which
he
could make any compromise—ea which he mild yield his
opinion or negotiate; and whatever its result—ice whatever
quarter it might fail to give comfort—(laughter)—and with
whatever arrangements of any kind it might Interfere—us
an honest man—as an Englishman, and as a peer of parlia-
ment, he felt bound to say that he opposed the further
progress of this bill. (Loud cheers.)
Earl GRANVILLE felt muted that when it was
known that one so well acquainted with the sub-
ject as the late Lnd Auckland, entertained •
deep ems of the absolute necessity of this ma-
sers for the future mercantile prosperity of the country
Is must have great weight with their lordships.
Whoa it wm said that the mercantile psospenty of this
*entry was owing to the navigation km, he begged of
Mom not to coding their view exclusively to England, but
she to eider what took place in other countries. Let
deem wake the ems or Prance. In the retire of Louis
XIV. very heavy differential duties were imposed on Dutch
ships by _the French governiaent. That was the bestrides
of restriction in France, which eentinited down to the time
of the Convention. Now, when he mndiered the Wigs&
Scant amount of the mercantile wades et that telie
compered with its extent, wealth,tand
he mild net help thinking that En owed &lino
parity of her =Vera* to the crease of her colonial
In-
trade, to her , and also to the aptitude of their
habitants of this for mercantile pursuits, rather thee*
restrictions, which Windy failed in • neighbouring country.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the petitions which had been
presented against this measure, it was to be observed that
those who wen to be subjected to competition very rarely
incited it in the first instance, however useful
it might prove to the country, and even to the
r class who were to be subjected to it. (Hear' hear.)
He had too high a respect for the shipowner of this country
to believe them capable of wields. to deceive the public by
the statements which they made, but he could not maim
that they felt all the alarm which they had heard so much
se, sad ems particularly when he knew that although this
mesas pawed the House of Commons with a great majority,
aid as he hallowed with every prospect of posing thdr
liembhipe bens, large same wore being expended
en ships in Seakeekten. (Hear, Yeas.)
the
had
she been premeted against the mows e femme of
the country. Now, with every rugs*r that body, he
doubted whether my kw potion Or OM engaged is yegrrff
etaltanl pursuits knew whet the email= at the
laws were, or had reikend_ igen the elersquestes=hdr—
repeal. Neither send he beim that the mareheals et the
country were always betessisigee of a ammo stage kind
than the goveramest. There were triteness &he egaleary.
He &duct Amato say eaythlog disrespected ottheaseeheate
of this country who were preemismt tor dish ggaaegd& mese,
their skill, their *Mersin. gad ter that Wia"
Sty—which more than eoliths makibeted hake prosperity
et this country—of being able to sememetrate their attendee
on
the badness which they bat on hand. (Hear, hear.)
Bet it was natural that they should not like to has those
Masten of bushiest thrown ems to ~Min k whisk
made coesidenble profit. Bist semWlbegendamen
wiheyho worse:mined beloveds& kedelpeee eimillembelered
that they did not fed any imemenimee hem dm assigation
laws, and said that they eke& hel no amerif they IMO rw.
pealed. One of the great fameremiestem et the navigation
laws was that they gave an inducement to perms to carry
goods to foreign coantriee rather than to England. An.

em.a. was both to the
reatehants and
was that they mused a g duchatiou
ht rate of freights. When the (nights were unreason-
ably low it was a Madvaatage to the shipowner, when they
were aareasoaably high it was • dieadvanteie to the rat r-
eheat. Thee they found by the evidence of one gentleman
Set he 1821, when frehhts were low, that the per masa* of
=ship to English was 20 to 80 ; is 1825, when
ate were high, they found the proportion of foreign
ships increased to about 30 to 70; in 1628, when freights
agates went down, the foreign fell to 23 against 77 Elliott ;
001 he 1840, when freights rose again, the foreign again in-
itialled in the ratio of 32 to 68. Other inconveniences
whisk mess from the navigation laws ha would
al mite to—such es the inconvesionce of being
Lunn
to bring to this country and after.
to eke tin at back to Calcutta; and also that
et helecebliged to have 10,000 boys more than was required.
It would also be necessary for them to make a change in
these laws for the benefit of their colon ea. One of the prin-
cipal despatches of Lord Harris lettered to the hard-
ship upon the colonists of Trinidad in being
.obliged
te pay doable freight fcr British to smile to bring tree
lehearen to cultivate that island. (Hear, hear.)
Aim:mist foreigners the people of the United States
were thou from whom it was said they bad most
to apprehend. The noble and learned lord stated
that he bed some doubts whether the United Sates would
reciprocate with them. He could say that when this
country had made concestions, the United States made eon
mookoce when they imposed nitrations the United States
imposed restrictions also. (Hear, bear) He ap-
prehended that no possible injury could mutt from
this bill, either in respect to this country or to foreign
countries; for the bill would in effect be a self-acting law.
(Hear, hear) Already they had the assurance of the Ameri-
can government of the construction which they would put
upon it, and that they were perfectly reedy to give every-
thing which it was proposed to ask by this bill. Moreover,
if it were supposed that there was any danger of a reaction-
ary policy in America in favour of protection, it would be
wise to strike while the iron was hot, and at once to put our
relations with that conatio on a sound and intelligible foot-
ing. I Hear, hear.) Allusion had bora made to the dif-
ferential dales imposed upon sue goods sad vessels by the
Dermas customs until ; and though he fully admitted that
the matins imposing those duties JO ured thenrel ves more than
they Herod es, stilt it did not become t e greatest comeneseled
country in the world to engage in a war of tariffs, prehre-
hely when that contest was founded on an unjust prinelPe.l
At present our commerce with Russia did not suffer, bums
we had the advantage of tho treaty of 1843; wheat that
treaty expired, it was not probable that Russia would longer
put up with the manifest injustice imposed upon her. The
noble and learned lord bad twitted the government with
throwing open foreign trade and not doing the some with
the oustimg trade. With ri gird to the latter, all the wit-
nesses examined before the committees 'greed that, whether
open or not, no ten eigner could interfere with it. The
government had no objection to opening the coasting trade;
but as it would be productive of no change whatever, they
thought it better not to add to the alarm somewhat as-
necessarily entertained on the subject. (Hear, hear.) As
to the comparative east of building ships here end
abroad, he believed the truth to be that no
country in the world eoald build ships for a smaller
amount of money than our North American colonies.
Russia appeared to be able to build as cheaply the inferior
class of vessels ; but of the best quality, no ships were
cheaper than those built in this country. (Hear, hear.)
The fairest way of instituting a comparison was,
not to compare the ships of one country with
those of another, overlooking the condition and circum-
stances in which they were produced, but to look at the ele-
ments for ship building possessed by the different countries.
As retracted this country and the United State, he found
that all the elements of ship-building, including 400, "PP!'
sheathing,
sheathing, copper belts, and sails, were cheaper in this
country. Some persons thought the cost of timber made ea
enormous difference; bat he found by the evidence of Mr.
G. F. Young, that toe whole cost of the foreign timber es.
',toyed in a ship was only 3801. As to the British sailor, he
disagreed from the noble and learned lord, and believed
that our milers had a natural instinct and aptitude for
maritime penults, which rendered them the best aailon is
the world ; and the proof of this was that three.fourtte of
the mamas employed in the Austrian marine were Ear
lieb. (Hear, hear,) Nor was it to be supposed that
oar seamen would seek employment in American ships, if
the noble and 1. arced lord were correct in stating that
the Americans worked them harder end fed them 110,80.
As to the captains, the underwriters of Lloyd's considered
these of the second-dam ships (whatever they might be is
such a vessel as the noble awl learned lord would be likely
to sail in) as decidedly inferior to -he foreign captains. Our
eeceul at the Dardanelles stated that more accidents hop-
peed under the British flag than under the flag of any
ether country,aad that if more loss did not accrue to proptruy
sad life from these tumid- nte, it was owing to the superior
catairuetion and the superior strength of the British vends,
and not to the skill of the captains. (Hear, hear.)
The real question was, could other nations drive
es eat of the direct trade which we now enjoyed ?
It would throw light on this question to consider whether
they could beat the Americans without any restriction what-
ever. He found by a return that, in 1843, of the ships
entering American ports, 63 per cent. were American, and
37 foreign ship, 31 of the latter, being British ship, and
the remaining 6 representing those of every other nation of
the world, whose competition we were now told so mach to
fear. (Hear, hear.) This showed that the Americans could
oomph with every other nation successfully ; we did not
compete with them, for their tonnage had increased in a
greater tempera= than OM since 1815. A very fair com-
parison might be drawn between the shipping of our North
American colonies and that of the United States, there
being more analogy between them than between the
United States and an old nation like this. Between 1790
and 1847, the colonial shipping showed an increase of
667 per cent. ; that of the United States was 565, showing a
great advantage on the aide of the former. Though the
whole of the United States tonnage had increased 108 per
cent. eines 1815, the greater portion of that increase was on
their wasting trade. the increase on their foreign trade being
only 45 per cent. But that was a greater increase than our
shipping showed in the same period, for it was only 33 per
cent. But was there no difference in the increase of popula-
tion in the two countries is the same period ? While our
population had harmed 51 per cent., that of the United
States bad increased 143 or 144 per cent., or almost three to
one, while the increase in the tonnage was only three to two.
(Hear, hear.) Our present navigation laws actually sub-
looted us to a disadvantage as regarded the Americans.
Their great skipping trade consisted in bringing over bulky
articles, the produce of their own country; while the most
desirable cargo that we could send out (*nested in sorted
articles, not only English, but foreign goods. Thus, while we
could take oat only pest of a cargo of our own goods, a United
States ship could take a freight either composed entirely
of American goods, or partly American and partly European
The Portuguese, by ao ingenious fl cal arrangement,
stools
ddL contrived to impose • heavy differential duty on the
export of port wine to this country, as compared with its
export to others. In order to avoid this tax, the English
importer sent the wine to the United States, but the naviga-
tion laws of that country prevented a British ship taking it
there, even to be warehoused; it was therefore seat in an
American vessel to America, paid the expenses there, and
came back here in a British vessel. Hence, the effect of
fiscal regulations on the one side, and of our navigation laws
on the other, was to place a physical obstruction of twice the
width of the Atlantic Ouse between the country. producing
and the country needing this article, and to give rise to a
vast amount of unproductive labour. (Hear, hear.) He
much regretted that Portugal should have thought it nem-
airy to impose this heavy differential duty, bemuse
this country happened to be her best customer ;
he still more regretted that this country, standing
pre-eminent amongst commercial nations, should have
thought it worth while to set the example of a pitiful
restriction of this kind. (Hear, hear.) Though he be-
Hued that this country, so long as it maintained its great
wealth and insular position, would n be found without a
military marine adequate to protect it from all hostile a
sion, yet, could he stretch his imagina'ion so as to bffiTZ
that this bill would have the effect of extinguishing the
fires in our numerous steam-boats, shutting up the yards of
the shipbuilder', sad starving the British seamen, he should
admit it would be a most dangerous blow to our mercantile
marine, and fatal to the naval supremacy we had heretofore
held. (Hear.) The real question we., were we able or
unable to compete with foreigners? (Hear, hear.) Every
argument which the noble and learned lord had used to
spew that we could not, might have been used with equal
effect some 70 or 00 years ago, to show that it was perfectly
impossible for us le moupte with foreigners in the manufac-
tare of sotto& gob. (Hear.) In that case the raw material
had to be but& from a drupe of thousands of miles ; a
great ports oaths asnufactured goods was exported to as
great • distance ; the coat of the machinery was consider-
able; and yet, whit ell the competition that had arisen, our
expels of ottilem gods were more than those of all other na.
tins pat together. What was the cause of this ? Probably
this Mum wee net attributable to any one cause alone,
but to • sembinethen of several—the accumulation of capi-
tal la hie errantry, the willingness of the capitalist to so-
sepe • meaner rate of interest than in other countries, the
energy and skill of the pimple, and their ingenuity in the
dissever, of mechanical inventions. Every one of these
etimaideratiste equally applied to the building and Davi-
e! Ms. (lieu hear.) There was no doubt what-
everg, thh hill ware ;mod, that the success of the Alp
beadle, trade would he greater even than that of other sall.
else of our mantistare. On one ground, he lad pose
satisfaction in tweeting this bill. It usually Wiped
that when any great change was proposed, or whim • mo-
nopoly wee destroyed by the introduction of or
other means, peat distress was experienced for a time •
certain clue. It 03 happened that, at this moment, there
was no country peassmsd of either capital, ships, or milers,
to compete with us. It was evident that the struggle, if it
came at all, must be a gradual one; the shipowners would
have time to prepare for it; and of the result he did not
entertain the slightest doebt. (Hear, hear.)
Lard COLCHESTER then addressed their lordships (hot,'
from the low tome Owen in which the noble lord spoke,
and the position he occupied on the back benches, the
grater portion of his speech was very inaudible in the gal-
lery. He spoke from a mass of returns and statistical docu-
ments, to the besting of which it would be impossible,
from the masse we have mentioned, to do justice).
Their lordships would give him leave to say that in
rehemee to the degree of authority to be attributed
to the eaminsedal returns which had been so largely quoted
floes, is was asoastially needful that they should distinguith
between their bearing on the " navigation," and their bear-
=the " commerce of the country. (Hear.) These
sewamasfllesteative of t‘hr:s inaselson elleertaiof thy ethoanteaaswasef ?rye otraigherhi•
had been brought forward, however, s if they were
cam on a my largo commerce without possessing any Levi-
gad= at all of its own—in the proper acceptation of that
term. (Hsu.) This distinction, which was really of ea-

trims importance in a debate of this nature, had been
clearly laid down by the late Mr. Wallace, Mr. liaskissea,
and Mr. Poelett Thomson in the coarse of the debates
re the policy of relaxing the navigation laws is 1826.
The noble lord then proeuded to remark on the great
danger which the repeal of these laws might occasion to the
state, with regard to the supply of seamen, when there
was a great urgency for their services. For it was not only
neesmary that a great commercial sad maritime empire like
this should be provided with naval armaments saMdut to
prevent her mercantile marine from being swept by foreign
cruisers off the tees, on any sudden outbreak of a war, but to
have the machinery in existence which would supply these
armaments with sailors qualified for such a service- It had
been said, indeed, that however math &lath seamen might
be voted under each an emergency, they could not be had—
that the men would not come forward for such a servfee.
Now he believed that it was a libel on the general character
and the feeling of British seamen to hold any such unworthy
opinion of thus. (Beer, hear.) lie was fully persuaded
that, under any fair degree of encouragement and protection,
they would at all times promptly enter into the
Queen's service. In the next place, with regard to
the operation of these laws on our shipbuilding
trade, he must again notice that many of the returns, such
as those from the Hansestio Towns, for example, were very
deceptive. But the general result of the eviderce taken be.
fore the lords' committee of the state of the shipping int..
teat tended to show that our builders should we altogether
repeal these laws of !redound navigation, could not compete
with the foreign builders. To the latter, material, wages,
labour, were all cheaper than to the former. Mr. G. F.
Young, one of the +hump examined, had proved that the
Baltic built shipping warby no means of so short-lived a
character as some had effected to consider it. The average
wages paid by the foreign shipowner were 335. per month ;
by our own, 46e. ; and, of clause, the freights charged by
the foreign were proportionally cheaper than those required by
the British owner. Our colonists complained, that the facilities
affords under recut treaties and arrangements for the entry
of foreign shipping into the port of London, and the greatly
enhanced facilities for the transport of their cargoes when
landed to every other part of the kingdom, deprived them,
not only of a very large share of the foreign trade of the
country, but of our home trade also. On all these grounds
; the noble lord argued egaiastthe expediency of the motion be-
, fore their lordships,which he felt called on decidedly to oppcse.
Toe noble lord concluded by moving an an amendment that
the bill be read that day six months.
The original motion and amendment having been pat from
the woolsack,

---
The Duke of ARGYLL said it appeared to him that there
were three great points to be held in view in discussing this
measure. The first was the abstract principle* of free trade
—the next, was the intrinsic merits of the question—the
third, was the political situation of the country. Now, with
respect to the abstract principles of free trade, he believed that
his own views would be found not to disagree with those
manifested by the majority of their lordships' house. But
he must express his dissent from the opiuions of the noble
and learned it rd opposite as to the grounds upon which Adam
Smith had maintained the navigation laws. What were Adam
Smith's reuses for refusing to assent to the repeal of the
navigator lama ? Became he took it for granted that Eng-
land was then unable to compete with -foreign nations in
maritime pursuits. If Adam Smith had believed that the
same thing was true with respect to corn he would have ob.
jetted on the same grounds to the repeal of the duties on
corn. The queedoe, therefore, in both cases turned upon
the point whether England could maintain her maritime
supremacy when open to the competition of foreign nations.
It he did not think so he would not give his vote for the
present measure. There less a prison facie case against
England ever being outstripped by foreigners in the struggle
for maritime supremacy; and that cue was based on
her insular position, on the magnitude of her
capital, and on the maritime geoius of the people
which hal made England what she now was. But above all
he founded his belief of the pr3priety of the present measure
on the experience of tl e past, a review of which corroborated
him in the determination to which he bad come. lie
should say that the histoiy. of the pest presented one con-
tinuous picture of progressive relaxation and of progressive
increase to the amount of tonnage and In the extent of 4:om-
s:tines. 'The noble lord (Broam) had thrown ors rboard
all considerations relating to the reciprocity treaties, for
he stated he did not care how many of them there
were. But Mr. Retries on the one hand, and Mr. Walpole
on the other. (Order, order.)
Lord BROUGHAM—Sty hoe. gentlemen in another
place. (A laugh.)

The Duke of ARGYLL begged pardon if he was out
of order. Hon. gentlemen in another place, who advo
cared the same views as the noble lord with regard to the
importance of maintaining the navigation lams took very
different views of the reciprocity treaties. It certainlye was
true that the question of reciprocity treaties was not then
before the house, but be could not help stating it to be his
opinion that the protectionists would proceed to the ex-
tremity of repealing every one of the reciprocity treaties if
they had the power to do so. And why did they not repeal
those treaties ? It was not because they believed that by so
doing they should be going back to ussound and untenable
principle. of commerce, and in point of fact to commercial
feudalism, but simply because they cannot get what they
want. Now, if it could be clearly proved that the conse-
quence of the relaxation of commercial restrictions bad
bad the affect of increasing in • perceptible ratio
the commerce of the country, would not that
be a very well-founded and sufficient reason for
I goisg on to the end of the course and for opening all
the avenues to trade and commerce, se the present measure
proposed to dot The noble and learned lord had objected
to the statistics which had been cited with reference to the
present bill, and he had expressed his utter want of confi-
dence in them. He (the Duke of Argyll) would refer him,
not to Mr. Porter's tables, but to the statistics furnished by a
protectionist writer in the pamphlet styled " Mr. Ricardo's
Anatomy of the Navigation Laws Dimmed," wherein it
was shown that under the restrictive policy of the United
States, British shipping in the ports of that country had
sunk in 18 years to less than one-twentieth of what it had been
before restrictive duties were imposed, whilst the moment
the reciprocity treaty of 1816 came into operation England
began rapidly to recover her position, and she very speedily I
regained the point item which she had receded in conse-
quence of the restrictive policy, commenced in 1792. The
same general reasoning applied to the carrying trade. He
would now touch upon the political situation of Great
Britain, and he could only repeat what he had already stated,
that if he were convinced England was not in a condition to
compete in maritime affairs with foreign powers he would
not vote for the measure—not even if he knew that the re-
sult of his vote was to induce the noble marquis to resign.
Did he so believe he should be less proud of England, and far
less hopeful of her future destiny than he now was. The de.
name of England werejustly proud of her past pre-eminence
on the ocean, but they would be prouder still when she
should be proved to be able to enter the lists and to bear off
the prise in the pursuits of peaceful industry. (Hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he should be quite
content to rest the defence of the navigatkm
laws on the speeches of the noble and learned
lord and the noble earl who spoke from the bench
below him. He entirely agreed with the former noble
lord, that there was no connexion between the question of
free trade and the present measure. For himself, he had
always, when in England, voted for relaxations in the ooea-
merttial policy of the empire. He had done so because he
considered that those relaxations tended to increase the
wealth of the country without exposing her to danger. Bat
he would vote against the present bill, because be thought
that, whilst it might increase the wealth of the country, it
would undermine that bulwark which was most closely con-
nected with her greatness and her present supremacy at sea.
At the conclusion of the last war we required for our de.
fence 160,000 men, and nearly 1,000 ships. Did we require
fewer men now ? Gaits the reverse. Since that period,
large settlements had grown up in Australia, needing pro-
Motion ; we had now trade with China, at three ports, need
Mg protection ; we had most unfortunately carried our colo-
nization to New Zealand ; we had, in a spirit apparently of
sheer romance, added to our establishments Lebuan. At all
points we had new settlements requiring protection. Let •
war break out, and a force must be seat out to some point of
the Pacific, or it would be impossible to keep up a fleet there
at all. And let it be borne well in mind that in other impor-
tant respects we were in a far different condition now than we
were is the eve of the battle of Trafalgar. We had not now
the supremacy of the am, and if we wanted to claim it we
should have to go through a stout battle for it. Suppose
Fiasco an antagonist, we should have in France a most
formidable competitor. France had at this moment more
means than we of blatantly sending out an effi-
cient fleet to sea, and, for European purpnea, alto-
gether • greater force, considering how large a proportion of
our forte was occupied in distant parts of the world.
America presented much the same program with Franca, as
compared with our relative condition at the close of the bite
war. Then look at the military marine of Russia, a mili-
tary marine altogether; why, Raria had at this moment
Mm 25 to 30 sail of the line, fit for summer service, though
not fur winter service. Even the smaller maritime powers,
sash as Austria, had availed themselves of the invention of
steam to prepare naval forces of greater or less extent
(Hear.) No doubt, so far as steamers were concerned, we
mould, from our superior advantage. in machinery, compete
'with the foreigner : but, destroy the present system, and we
lassaredly should not be able to compete with the foreigner
la sailing ships, and it was to sailing ships we bad to look for I
the formation of seamen to serve in our line-of-battle ships.
It was alleged that the distresses of the West Indies afforded
a sufficient reason for the abolition of the existing system, and
no doubt there were many appeals from the West India
colonies calling for that change ; but the languor, of the
petition from Antigua showed that the requisition was
wrung from the West Indians, not from any abstract
opinion of the expediency of the change, but from • despe-
rate hope that, all other things failing, this change, though
revolting in all other respect. to their feelings, might, per-
haps, chance to do them some good. Their poverty, and not
their will, consented in the matter. (Hear, hear. Thermos
of Canada was also put forward ; and no doubt Canada had
a strong claim for relaxation, if that relaxation could be
given without more than counterbalancing damage to the
interests of the empire; but where these
ftlssasb preponderated, Canadians and West Indians.
must hear in mind that for all great national purposes they
ware Englishmen ; Englishmen for whom we, their country-
men at home, made, whenever necessary, large expenses;
gee whose purposes we maintained a large navy and a large
twiny; and they must, on their parts, be prepared to taker
their pert in any tensporaryi nconvenlence arising from those
navigation laws, without which, after all, they themselves
would long since have ceased t r f;rni branches of the empire.
The people of the various provinces of this great empire,binded
together, and consenting.. submit to mutual sacrifices,
for mutual object., might securely defy the whole
world, and maintain themselves impregnable in the enjoy-
ment of their real, true, beneficial liberties ; but 'once allow
national avarice to absorb every nationol virtue, and the
profit of the moment to be the sole ob ect of legillation„and

we should fall as others had fallen, wbo had in like ramie
abandoned the sole principles which lead to true laskt.
neas, and, falling, we should tall unwept, neihononted,
graced. (Cheers )
Oa the motion of the Berl of CAameti, the debits was
then adjourned till this day.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, MAT 7.
The Sezexis took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

--- - - -
REPORTS CONSIDESED.—Ashton-under-Lyag ps..
Roe, Markets, and Impfovement Acts Extension and Alamg,,:
meat, and Transference of Gas and Waterworks and Obit
Property to the Corporation ; River Dun Navigation Goo;
puny (Purchase of Stainforth and Keadby Cabal); BI
SECOND READINGS.- Pupils' Protection (Btoges4
Lunatics' Asylum (Scotland); Bills. 1.
THIRD READlNGS.—Caledonian Railway (Luse et!
Purchase of the Glasgow, Doubtful, and Neilston
way) ; Division of the Living of Richmond and g
upon Thames ; Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and ArdoosagialM
way, and Ardrowan Harbour Acts Amendment; Balla
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.

COMITY FINANCIAL BOARIIB.-137 Mr. COBDEN, frig'
the guardians of the union of HsWiz. Inc in totem.," aim
township of fitansileld in Halifax, Yorkshire : Mr. any.
WOOD (9), from the guardians of Wyck W.* Union, Buda,.
Westbury-upon•Bersrn Union, Olouoestrrahire ; rateps
of Newton, near Manchester ; ratepayers of Colue.ool46i
Booth, Greet Hitter, Marsden, Headley Hollows, pm.
Close, New Laund Booth, Higham with West Close, Lane..
shire: Mr. BROWN, from Antry, Crosby, Lunt, Kirby
Allertos, Orell and Ford, Ince Blundell, Bootle Natters*:
Great Crosby : Mr. LUBBINGTON, from churchwarisas
of St. James's, Westminster :—in favour of coumy fists
boards.

Cass or Rev. Ms. Sloss, &c.—By Mr. COBDEN
from Wesleyan congregation at lltckmondwikc, 'county el
York for a measure for the relief of Mr. Shore, axed
.!
needing clergymen of the church of Enalmul.

ILEDCCPION OP PUBLIC SALARIP-9.—By Mr. COMM
(for Mr. Hume), from Society for Diffusion of PoWig
Knowledge of Taunton, Somerset, for reduc ion of ailsriss.
INTEINATIONAL ABBITKATION INBTRAD OP WAR.-14
Mr. COBDEN (for Mr. Hums), fr m
Frenohay, Gloucester; Presbyterians,' congregstion of, It
Arbroath; Mr. G. THOMPSON, from a place, name ask
hoard ;—in favour of arbitration treaties.
MALT TAX Iterzer., &c —By Mr. COBDEN (for Mr.
Hume), from clergy, landowners, and farmers, for repeal of
the malt tax and retrenchment.

EXTZNISION OP SRI SUFFRAGE, &e.—By Mr. COBDIN
(for Mr. Hume), from the Exeter Reform Association; from
75 electors and oth r inhabitants of London ; from 17 bred
makers of London ; from Castle Acre, Norfolk ;—in term of
universal suffrage or manhood suffrage, triennial parkins*,
and the ballot.

PAROCHIAL SCHOOL 111PROVZHEN? BILL, —By Mr.
COBDEN (for Mr. Hume), from a Presbyter/1u magnet.
lion at Arbroath, in favour of this bill.

REGISTRATION or BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, &e. (ScortAan)
Btum.—By Mr. COBDEN (tor Mr. Hume), fmm a pro.byterian congregation at Arbroath ; Mr. LOCKHART,
from the eoramtssionen of supply of the county of Lanark;
Lord LINCOLN, from the Falkirk Burghs; Mr. C. BRUCE,
from Morayshire; against these bills.

LUNATIC ASYLUM (SCOTLAND) BILL.—By Mr. DUN.
CAN, from Dundee, against this bill.
MATIBIAGNB BILL —By Mr. GODSON, from Dudley mg
elsewhere, agsiust this bill.

NATIONAL EXPENDITURE —By Mr. ELLIOT, Mal
places in Scotland, for a reduction of the national co
panditure.
WRIER CLERGY.—By Mr. J. WILLIAMS, from Wales,
scaled the appointment of dergyme n to livar p in the prise
cupidity who were not acquainted with the Welsh language.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.—By Mr. LAtIY, firm
Weston-super-Mare ; Mr. FELLOWES, fr. m Huntingdon;
Mr. PLUM PTRE, from Twickenham, Hounslow, and other
places ; Captain HARRIS, from Christchurch ; Mr.
SPOONER, from Marylebone and other places; Mr. NEW-
DEGATR, from various plates in Warwickshire ; and Mr.
STAFFORD, from Northampton ;—against this bill.
LIMERICK AND WATERFORD RAILWAY.—By Sir H. W.
BARRON, from the south of Ireland, for public aid in
order to complete this line of railway.