The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-30 00:00:00

For Arooant

Ii
PARK J." 29' For
money. I Opeollll
Spar Oats. - 67 30
&aims.
sr Oasts.
ISeelir,Pgra"llll.s3::irerri:6l::":l466:ell.o2B:7ll.one3:27lll;Nai;.K 4Ratteu.a.;a°
111:37.7614
Do. 41
Treasury:Bode . 6
nottsnact 3 p.Ct. RI 53 , Rook Sham
PAWS, JULY 29.—Versailles (loft bank) 227 60; Paris
rad Orloom, 141 23; Pula sad Room, 641 30; Kowa sod Havre,
246 15; Ilarseilles anti Avignon. 221; Centre, 441 21; Bodeen
and Lasko% 270; Odom and Dortieener, 295; Norther,, 476; Paris
end Westmont, 982 60 • Tears sod Nantes, 973 76; Nonteresn
and Troyer, 11S; Dieppe lad Pessrap, 90128.
MADRID, JOLT 24.—Three per Cents., 361; after Bobs,
86 11-16. Four per Cents., 161. Five per Contr., 171; alter
Bobs, 17}. Coupons, ; alter Bobs, 13f. PINSIV.; Si
after Boles, 61. Noah of St. Ferdinand, 101 cash. Zs-
'hangs on London, 60.80.

S 7 AO
93 93

87 40
83 70

117 40
10 70

GLASGOW AND SOUTH WzantaN
Troia" for the week ending hal X : 4,320!. l2e. 4d.;
acareeponding week in last
r***4l7.l.
•
liatcl 4." V- 4

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS.—TotsooT, JULY 29.
The LOSS CMANCILWS tea his seat at 5 o'clock.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
CSYST•L PALLCIL—By Earl EITZHARDINGE, from
Cheltenham' the Etll of HARROWBY, from a place not
hoard ; Lord LYTTELTON, from Worcester ,• the Bishop
of MANCHESTER, from Birmingham ; Lord MON
TEAOLE, from Chester; in favour of the retention of the
Crystal Palace.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.—By the Earl of ENNIS-
KILLE.N, from Wesleyan congregations, Ireland; the
Earl of MOUNTCASHELL, from several places ; in favour
adds bill. Lord MONTEAGLE, from Clare, against the
hIS.
Tin,. Bess Aci.—By the Earl of HARROWBT, from
Towninallsag, complaining of this act.
COPTIIOLD ENCLOSIIIE AND TITHE COMMIS-

MONS BILL.
Oa the footles et the Ball of CASLISLI this bill wu read
S third time and prod.
EPISCOPAL AND CAFITULAR ESTATES
MANAGEMENT (No. 2) BILL.
On the make of the Earl of Canuus this hill was read
• third time and passed.
POOR RELIEF ACT CONTINUANCE BILL.
On the motion of the Karl of CPA/LISLE this bill was read
a sound time.
SMITHFIELD MARKET REMOVAL BILL.
On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE this bill was read a
third time and
LEASEHOLir TetINURE OF LAND (IRELAND)
ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill passed through committee, and was reported to
the house.
UNITED CHURCH OF ENGLAND AND IRELAND
BILL.—CHURCHES AND CHAPELS (IRELAND)
BILL.—ECCLESIASTICAL RESIDENCES (lltE-
_

LA-Ni)) DILL.
Oa the motion of Lord hlo:srrent.r, thew bills seve-
rally pawed through committee, and were reported to the
houx•.
CIVIL BILLS. &e, (IRELAND), DILL.

. ,
Oa the motion of the Marquis of CLA.NRICAKDZ, this
bill was read a third time and passed.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDUWMII having moved the third
reading of this bill,
The Earl of AUERDEEN said he could not but avail
himself of the last opportunity which would be afforded
lien, by the forma of the house, to pretest against the peas•
ing of this bill. The discussion which had taken place on
this subject had not removed the apprehensions which he
had entertained as to its mischievous consequences
and radical injustice. If he found Monti( almost
alone in opposition to the sentiment, of the
house, he hoped their lonlehips would believe that it
was in consequence of the most deliberate coneideration of
what he deemed to be right—(hear, bear)—and some-
thing told him that noble lids opposite were not strangers
to the feelings which he entertained. What was the situa-
tion of the hill at the present moment? Nothing ovoid
he more singular then the position of this measure—eareled
as it hr. been by great majorities—every amendment
having been successfully resixted —and yet no one person
had expressed entire satishatien with the measure either
is that or the other house of parliament. His noble friend
on the crass-leaches (Inc(lntl Munteagle), who moved the
omission of Ireland from the hill, hail, in his (the Earl of
Aberdeen's) opinion, made out a strong—s triumphant
case, to which, however, he could not secede; and he had
voted against the motion in order to avoid mischiefs of
greater magnitude than those which it was intended
to remove. The noble lord's srgumeut in favour of
excluding Ireland, powerful as it was, app. areal to him to be
stronger &goind aU legislation on the subject. Ile said
is conclusion that he shoals! avail himself of one of
the moot valualde privileges which their lordehips possessed,
namely, that of recording on the journals of their house
his reasons for olojecting to this measure. It would be for
these who came after them to deride whether those reasons
and objection. were consistent with good policy and goal
government, and whether the apprehension. expressed
were we'll founded, or whether they were only rain and
visionary. (icer, beer.)
The Bishop of OXFORD said that if he had not the
tamest belief in his own mind that his giving a silent vote
upon this question might lead to a miseenstruction of his
motives, he should not hare risen to address their lord-
ships. (Hear, hear.) Hut he was conscious that one hold-
ing the position which he oteupied, and 111110 hid lora fre-
quently Minded to in the course of the debate, would have
been subject to the charge of lukewarmness, union ho
stated that he gave his full and hearty and rational eon-
pent to the lull before their lordship+. It was on 16,1 lower
ground Own this that he could consent to vote for this ques-
tion. It hail been argued, with singular ability, that this
bill was only a civil and political measure ; and that it did
sot affect the religious pert of the question. Now, he be-
lieved that it did meat directly concern the religious cha-
racter of this country ; and it was only on that ground that
he should give kin vote fur it. lie did not mean
to say that it was the province of parliament to estab-
lish relminus truth; he thought, however, that two separate
Liam of duty heenme the legislature of this country and the
bishops and clergy. He thought the church WAS hound,
mhos this act of oppression was perpetrated, on two distinct
grounds to rotest against it, as being first the introduction
isif !else anti fatal doctrine into this our land, and also as

to the ground • and there was se each fatal, fundamental
°kitties sgaisist this bill r to render it an unlawful mea.
sans. Therefore, as it was far snore desirable to do some-
thing, though not the best thing, that could be defined, than
to leave everything undone, he alkpqght he was actin, not
irrationally, not from passion, of any lower moiiii4t
from the dictates of his judgment,.which had . h t
to bear upon this great questiosZareenting ut
he was hound to add that - iota did Mstisfy
him. First, because was.not sure diet it'. was
altogether the best mod
nxeli 'id peoeeed eh A• Ind,
+..
secondly, if they were to liflhah way, he did not
think the bill was what it ought to be. The position of
the question was this:—There were three modes of deal-
ing with our Roman catholic fellow-subjects. For • I.
time after the reformation we had endeavoured, by penal
laws and direct legislation, to enforce truth and extirpate
error. We trusted more or less to persecution. This,
though a very bad and irreligious mode of dealing with
the question. was a distinct sad appreciable mode : but the
time came when that became impossible, and we next
proceeded to ignore altogether the existence of the
Bishop of Rome. Our supremacy was constructed on that
idea, that we did not know of the fact of there being any
Roman catholic+ in England, or those who got rescripts
end bulls from Rome. Chia for a time was an intelligible
mode of proceeding—not a good one, because it savoured of
untruth. The time came when it could no longer be acted
on; for, having given our Roman catholic brethren seats in
the two houses of parliament, and proceeded, by different
bills, to acknowledge their status, and the status of their
priests and bishops, it was altogether impossible and
preposterous longer to attempt to ignore the existence
of that which was every day forced upon our attention.
The third system, the only rational and enduring one, was
to say, . M e will no longer persecute, because we think it
' wicked ; we can no longer ignore ; but we will do what we
have a right to do, we will regulate this intercourse which
we cannot any longer deny." By this he meant no con-
cordat ; there could be, in the true sense of the word, no
concordat between England and Rome ; because that ne-
cesaarily involved giving some portion of the national
power to enforce the dogmas and doctrines of the Bishop of
Rome. Valuing so highly as he did the protestant re-
formed character of this nation of England, he never could
consent to any concordat which should give the support of
the law of England to any such dogmas. By regulation he
meant this: Suppose it had been enacted, before this un-
happy brief or rescript had arrived, under the highest
posaible penalty, that no bull, brief, or rescript should be
admitted into this country without being previously laid be-
fore the government, to see whether it contained anythiag
hostile to the institutions of the land; and that, if judged to
contain any such provision, it should be remitted to the
l'ope, and any attempt to introduce it should subject all
concerned to the very highest penalties of the law, as the
very highest possible breach of the nationality of this coun-
try what would have been the effect ? All the
difficulties that hail arisen would have been avoided;
this bull would have been rejected end sent
back; and a settled relation have been introduced,
which would have saved us all these perplexities.
That was the only line of proceeding on which their lord-
ships could firmly take their stand. They must come to
this conclusion to admit the deplorable, the lamentable
fact that there were those in the nation who believed it ne-
cessar7 for their soul's safety to have communication with
the bishop of Rome, and to insist upon regulating that
communication so that none of the rights of this nation
should be infringed. Some of their lordships thought this
hill went too far; others that it did not go far enough. He
thought it was open both to the one objection and the'
other. (Hear, hoar.) !lad he had the opportunity of
voting in committee lie should have supported the amend-
ment of the noble duke opposite. These money penalties
tomald never be enforced; and the amendment would have
as it a self-executing measure, and sufficiently stringent,
Mad would have prevented these conflicts which he feared
Must ensue on its passing. Ile thought that another amend-
meat, proposed elsewhere, was essential to making this a
truly honest measure—that which declared the Queen
to ho the only fountain of honour in these
realms, and made it penal for any minister,
without the royal sign-manual, to concede rank,
title or precedence to any Roman catholic prelate in virtue
of his office. It was the most complete contradiction to call
the parcelling out of England into sees a grievous aggres-
sion, and yet to say that if Roman catholic bishops were
appointed in our colonk,s, so far from its being felt an insult
or an aggression they should be allowed to take precedence
immediately after the bishops of our own church. On one point
he desired earnestly to address their lordships. Ile did not
affect to fear for the result of the division. Ile knew their
lordships would pass the bill ; but he would most respect-
fully and earnestly press upon them that when they had
dam this they should not consider the matter settled, or
imagine that the protestant feeling which had been called
forth hail been abundantly satisfied by such an act being
=lon the statute-book. What could be thought of a
ure which passed a law not to be enforced ? There
were doubtless government difficulties attending this mea-
sure, but they must he prepared to enforce it when it was
isetl. Some regarded it simply as a Notest. A penal
bill was not a protest—it was something more i and a penal
bill carried, not to be enforced, would be an insult to the
spiritual character of our church, and an encouragement to
that aggression which it affected to repel. lie knew
the subtlety and strength of the to with which we
bed to contend ; he knew that for 1,100 years and more,
*rough forty generations of men, she had been unwearily,
enichhally, and most ably e irrying on this contest; he
know that she was full of traditions of victory, and coup-
ler d success ; that she had had all the subtlest
nod Hems) of the ablest men that had lived in her comma-
Zmials. d they bad consulted for her how to carry on this
Ho knew that great part of the training of her
priests was a controversial and warlike training, to enable
them to make converts, and to weaken the church of Eng-
land. Ile knew that that church had little of human
strength or ability to compare with this great amount of di-
versiticsl esperience,and of traditional learning. The church
of !tome haul known before how to tura defeats into tri-
umphs, and gather new arguments for success Irons those
very reverses. Knowing all this be trembled to think of
the legislature or this country weakening the ground of
their national protest by passing a measure which they ,hul
nut mean to enforce. ICe kuew that the foe was at that mo-
ment sleepless ; he knew that the church of Rome fully un-
derstood the strength given to the opposition by the fact of
the established church having not only truth of doctrine,
but also apostolic orders. She knew that this had made
the church of England so strong through many generations
against herself. (Hear.) Knowing how, at this moment,
all her energies were applied to supplant that
church ; knowing that to effect this object the dearest
charities of domestic life had been mast mercilessly &mei-
ticed,—knowing that for this she had sent out anew exhor-
tations to a holy crusade of prayer, that she had anew in-
stituted orutorians to harangue, and unlicensed jesuits to
intrigue,—knowing all this, he said that if they passed a
measure which was to leave them weaker in the conflict,
because it promised much and performed little, they would
have dour evil service to the reformed faith of this land. On
this ground he ventured to say that, without being wholly
able to approve of the measure, lie acted rationally and
wisely in supporting the third reading.
LORI sruAitT DE DECEIS regretted that be felt
himself compelled to vote against the bill. lie did so
because it would be fatal to the peace and welfare of Ireland,
involving the prohibition of legal forms in the faith of' the
Roman catholics of that country. The efforts of the Roman
catholic priests might be met by the increased spiritual
action of the English church, but it could not be met by
leifislation.
I'he Duke of ARGYLL denied that the value of the
bill consisted in the extent to which it was to be enforced.
They had now established that great principle of the law,
and the Human catholies would not be able to found an
argument upon their silence. lie contended that the church
of England, being a national inditution, might summon
the legislature to her aid when attacked by • foreign power.
The right rev. prelate and other persons had spoken of the
church of England as the great bulwark of the Christian
faith. Such it had been, and such he prayed God it might
yet be; but it was, nevertheless, now the only protestant
church which, as far as he (the noble duke) was aware,
was giving forth, day by day, perverts to the Roman catho-
lic faith. (Cheers.)
Earl FORTESCUE, in intimating his assent to the
measure, trusted that parliament would not ehriuk from
passing a more stringent enactment, if required.
The Earl of OLENGALL, who supported the bill, be-
lieved that the laity in Ireland were in favour of the col-
leges which had lately been established there; and, if any
Rumen catholic bishops on the Continent had adopted a
similar line of proceeding, respecting any colleges
eke,.,
which they had adopted at the synod of Thurles, they w 1
soon have found themselves in a fortress, or have been con-
veed to the frontier.
Earl NELSON contended that the cause of religion had
never prospered when supported by penal laws, and argued
that the bill was full of inconsistencies. It professed to
meet a special case, but went beyond it, whilst the real
danger was left untouched.
The Marquis of SLIGO protested against the bill.
Lord REI)ESDALE apprehended that they were legis-
lating without having instituted the inquiries or obtained
the information most desirable on the subject. Be regretted
the absence of Lord Derby, whose proposition for an in-
quiry into the whole matter as to the best means of meeting
this aggression seemed to be the safest and moat prudent
course of proceeding ; but consented, n thcleas, to adopt
I the bill. _ _ _

being a schismatic intrusion of a rival chord; kite, ground
already legitimately occupied by the church of the country.
(Hear, hear.) On loth these grounds he felt hound to pro-
test, as a solemn synod had lately protested, against this act
of aggression ; and be must alarm that every part of that
protest was justifiable. It had been stated that it was
altogether to he considered as the repulsion of an out
rage on the crown of England —on the heart of the
national life of England. (Hear. bear.) It was only as a
Christian people that we could denounce this act ref the
Bishop of Rome. If the act of the Bishop of Rum.- was an
aggnossion in any other sense it was as much an art of
aggression fur the apostles to set up the Christian church at
Jerusalem, at Antioch, and Romeo, because it was opposed
to the religion which °thind in that part of the world at
that time. It was then just as much an aggression to op.
pose the nationality which then exiated—this country was
a Christian country, and we had a Christian nationality—.
and the assumption was that we were not a Christian coun-
try, but that we had lapsed into a state of unbelief. Ho
mid, not merely SS a bishop of the church, but as a member
of this great Christian commonwealth, that an aggreraiem
bad been made which affected every one of them. On this
ground the whole opposition to the measure of the Pope
MSS fully justifiable; because it was the claiming on the
part of this country of its own alienable national rights, an
a member of the great Christian commonwealth. Again,
being a nation, and having an established church of a cer-
tain character, we were hound to reject this interference.
What wan done at the Reformation? This people of Eng-
land thee asserted for itself that it belonged to the church
of Christ—that it held certain doctrines, truths, and farms
of discipline—that to maintain thou- was part ails national
being—and that it njected certain others. Such was still the
profession of this nation; it was impressed as a stamp
on every part of our legislation and customs. Why was the
Queen of this country rarrounded not only by the Liables
of the state but by the clergy ? Why, wheu the royal
diadem wan placed on those fair brows on which it now sat,
was it placed there, not by the oldest uobleman of the land,
but by the highest minister of the church ? Because we
Mill ma nation acknowledged the truth of the reformed
41:ret faith, and had incorporated it with all our
ns. According to his own showing the
Pope had not only sent in bishops to his own fold,
but he had abolished the existing episcopal sees
in this country. (Here, hear.) This was a direct
interference of a mixed spiritual and temporal kind, with
our institutions, and as such ought to be misted. Much
mist might be thrown over this question, but he would
rat it in the plainest possible way. Supposing there had
been a pro-catholic revolution in this country, and Roman
catholicism had been established in the land ; suppose this
to have happened before this reecript of the Pope was
famed, what course must he then hare pursued? Ile
• mast have recognised our sees, hare proceeded against the
iadividual occupants, have deprived them for heresy, and
pat ether prelates in their place. But if there were to he
a pro-Roman catholic revolution in this country tomorrow,
the Bishop of Rome would say —•• Your sees are swept
away altogether ; I don't need to deprive the occupants of
their seats." (Hear, hear.) Thus, he had interfered
with that spiritual constitution which we, rightly of
wrongly, had established for the instruction and worship of
OW people. On three grounds he supported the bill, bee
mme there had been, in this iuvasion of our rights,
an attempt to remove as from among Christian people, and
to abolish the several bishopree of the church
of England. Os these religious grounds their lordships
sees board to iatoriass with regard .to this aggression. On
the gaisatisa of this particular way in which this letterer-
enlea Was to be mask le would say that, without any espc-
del Iftilmp ter this wasore, he was prepared to give an ad
whew went is what ministers had proposed. In all
Bigliihatiwas elms dillicidtiss Interposed, a wise man must
ha pseud la dr choice of his course by that which
semel most sapilient ; he must wisely adopt a certain line
of essellst. though Itsowieg it was not the best that could
hew Wm aimeeaL bat feeling it to be the best under the cit.- ,
ounistsseee. The treble earl had said they were taking
from the lionten asdralles what was essential to the perform- •
scant lilllllllf disir faith. If that could b.: established,
he hot gee wadi alasea the bill. But the arguments
hod altsptheet hied to tarty that conviction to his
Meek Be ort*lesth the simple fact. that for many
them weds lad been fully and fiblin-
sailaski by biabilni nomiaal sces in distant
awnmaries 1 ire tie Aims epandie were bishop. It was
said the NOM why that bib", were not snot miner was
Abe to aft& lewd= dieting mow the Roma embo-
li. body—molars spied seeder, and so en. Ile be-
lieved the Wass was a wry different one. He Wawa the
Pep himself bad all along resided the desire for laving
diameas la Plagind. apt wishing, until this massed, to
awe to taialles mid absekte Weeds with the people of
la pot times. the Peps had stated it *mad be
elle=he to is awe and gweenneent in We wintry
ware he to amen blimp. that be was net permed to
take the step. Bet imissady am* had arises a great demise
I. mks monaisasenatiathe perversions which had smilibased li
awl made monsailit the fans of our cinch ; those was a
libelant mayM4 reaming In the dwelt tide* be led
to doubt abet lb sompletsams nod ediseey, if t%:aamr
• estaidislesel behee thole eyes a hog awl territorial
; gad flat Ile
mama had bees adapted with
the view ef hastaglag thew yeevandeas be truly be-
Mewed. It had am bees dew her tip paresisase of the
desk of the Mew of P.maa bet to iheiNteta
spa these who were not of Wit dee& Thenehrev sauggaa
swat thet we wee withholding from the Sem= esthetics
teamdig W their religious earelese, absolutely fell

Lord GAGE said that the increase of convents and
monasteries was the real papal aggression, and he should
be glad to see the government abandon this bill, which
would lead to nothing, but offend many and please nobody,
and boldly meet the actual danger to which he had ad-
verted.
Earl GREY begged to make an observation or two upon
an allusion in the speech of the right reverend prelate (the
swap of Oxford). The right reverend prelate had pointed
oat the defects by which the bill was characterised, had stated
the coarse which he would havevrecommended, and amongst
ether things had said that on rank or title ought to be given
to any Roman catholic prelates without some distinct and
famed instrument on the subject. The right rev. prelate
had askered especially to instructions which hall been
traneenitted about four years ago to the governors of the
esicmisa, to the effect that they should give titles of honour
to the Romeo catholic prelates and the precedence conse-
quent thereon. Here he would observe that in the majority
orate colonies the Roman catholic church stood upon a
fasting of equality with the protestant church. In Australia,
when this question had first been raised, the church of
Rain was the sharer of an endowment on precisely the
as principles as ,our own church there. In some other
eclogue the case was still stronger for the Roman catholic
&web, because these colonies had been originally Roman
catholic. Under thew circumstances it had been represented to
the government by the Roman catholic prelims that they
ought not to be denied the social distinctions accorded to
our own prelates, and the request had seemed so reasonable

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 30, 1851

that government could not deny it, and consequent) I in-
structions had been that the Roman catholic prelates *odd
have the same social distinctions in the colonies which were
given to the prelates of the protestant church. The right
rev. veleta (the !Bebop of Oxford) had said this ought to
lee been degC4dem.-ae someinetmenedt.
Must, howcreerreamnd the gist rev. prelate that there
514 be* no formali instruMent weed in cogeiviag the
title bilitowed on the Englith colonial bishope—rthatthey
had beellreanferred la the caM of the catholic bishops and
**at of the HBO* bishops in precisely the same man-
nee, (Hear, hear.). He had no hesitation in saying. that
in some eases it was a misfortune rather than otherwise to
the prelates both of the English and the Roman catholic 1
churches in the colonies to posies titles,and had he (Emi(; rey)
the power to go back he should establish equality not by ,
giving titles to both, but by. taking them altogether away.
It was en anomaly that parties should possess titles while
their income was scarcely sufficient to maintain them de-
cently ; and this was the ease with respect to many of the
colonial bishops of both churches. lie believed, however,
that whatever social privileges or rank in the colonies
were given to the prelates of the one church could nut Ix
withheld from the other. He was strongly of opinion that the
policy of this country towards Roman catholic Ireland had not
been what it ought to have been, but at the same time le
thought that the law should be maintained against any d_-
nomination, and that the authority of the crown and par-
liament of this country should be strictly and firmly sup-
ported. (Hear, hear.)
The bill was then read a third time.
On the question that the bill do pass,
Lord MONTEAGLE rose for the purpose of prorating
an additional clause. Ho stated that the opinion of emisent
counsel had been taken on the bill, which opinion was to
the effect, that, on section one, which was declaratory, an
indictmeat might lie for a misdemeanour; that under see
tion one a prosecution might be commenced without the as-
sent of the Attorney-General ; and that a jury mightlind
against a Roman catholic prelate if they were of opinion
that any act was done virtually in pursuance of a brief or
rescript, whether it had been ostensibly so done or
not. Moreover, parties of the lionian catholic faith acting
under any brief or rescript from the see of Rome
might be indicted for conspiracy. (Hear.) Now he asked
them that where there existed a doubt they should put in
words to do away with that doubt. If they allowed the
bill to go forward in its present shape they must be held
deeply restsonsible fur the consequences which might ensue.
This act would operate differently in different localities,
and it would tell with undue severity on the possessors of
the ancient sees in lreland—s:es which had not been created
by the Pope's bull. Such a state of the law could not be
defended. What he would ask was simply this, that
a clause should be added allowing the Roman catholic pre-
lates to continue the titles recognised by the Bequests Act,
and that if they took the designations used in that
Act they should thereby rid themselves of the
penalties of the bill. 10 this he did not think
there could be any reasonable objection found.
Ile did not ask them to apply any new principle,
but only to take the same course in Ireland and Eng-
land that they had adopted in the colonies, and by adopt-
ing this clause they would give the means to catholic.; of
extricating themselves from penalties. The noble lord con-
cluded by moving the addition of the clause.
On the question being put,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he should not have
address their lordships on the present stage of the bill had
it not been for the amendment, or rather the addition,
which bad been proposed by his noble friend. It appeared
to him that his noble friend was apprehensive of the same
' effects being produced by the bill which had been antici-
pated by the noble earl opposite who had begun this discus-
, non, and hail been described by him RS dangers of a very
formidable character. 'the noble earl had said that pro-
ceedings might be instituted which would have the effect
of debarring Roman eatholics front the exercise of their re-
ligion, and deprive them of that protection of the law to
which it was admitted they were justly entitled, and
which effect he had already stated the bill not only was not
intended to produce, but that actually the bill would not
produce that effect. The course which the government
had proposed appeared to hint plain and intelligilde, and one
capable of execution, and he thought the plan proposed by
his right rev. friend, if he would allow him so to call him,
was open to the objection of not being so practicable as the
measure proposed by the government. There was
one point upon which he need not dwell, fur he had
already stated that there was a portion of the bill which he
would rather not see in it, be alluded to that which gave
power to the common informer to lay informations. Ile
common informer could not be actuated by the motives that
would influence a government in instituting a prosecution. A
common informer might be used in petty offences' such as
uttering base coin, but in such cases as this he could not be
trusted, and for that reason the government bad interposed
and given the most effectual check to the action of the
common informer, by enacting that the prosecution should
depend upon the discretion of the principal law officers of
the Crown, so that no prosecution could be carried on with-
out the consent of the Crown, through the learned Attorney
General. And he held, he might say with confi-
dence, that prosecutions could be only instituted in such
cases as were objectionable under the law as it before stood,
and that the jurisdiction to be exercised would be the same.
It was satisfactory to him to be able to say that the acts of
the Bishop of Rome might have been unobjectionable in
themselves if he had taken a different course in carrying
them out. If he thought it a lawful course fur him to se-
cure the benefits of episcopal administration to the Roman
catholic subjects of this country, ho might have chosen a
safer course in effecting that object, and have informed her
Majesty's government that he intended so to confine his
object. If he had stated that that was the sole object to
which his briefs were confined, in his (the Marquis of
Laiudowne's) opinion no objection would have been made,
and, if the Pope would even now so limit his object, it
might make a great difference in the public feeling ou the
question, for there was not one of those spiritual functions
which might not be exercised. He thought the doe-
tnne of his noble friend's amendment failed. Some
authority must be exercised for the due administration of
' purely spiritual functions, whether by the Pope or any one
' else, and when his noble friend called upon the govern-
ment to purge the evil from the bill he could only repeat
that, whether earth:el out in England or Ireland, the law
unaltered remained in full force, and no person would be
prevented front doing that which it had been the object
of the legislature to permit, or would be deprived of
that protection which it hail been the object of the
law to give to him. But the object of the hill was to curb
that exercise of temporal power which, under the name of
the church of Rome, had been so often brought into prac-
tice under the colour of spiritual jurisdiction. Upon these
grounds he must oppose the addition of the amendment
proposed by his noble friend. (Hear, hear.)
After some observations front Lord st. Germans, the
Bishop of Oxford, and Lord Cranworth,
Lord MONTEAGLE briefly replied, and said he was so
much satisfied with the sentiments which had been ex-
pressed by her majesty's government on the subject of his
amendment, that he would not further press his motion
upon their lordships.
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
CHART (ABLE TRUSTS

permanently roofed over and a chimney placed on the top.
Laugister.) When he (Lord Seymour) came into office, he
not only found matters in that state, but he also discovered
that the had actually laid out a small garden round the stead.
He should 'slivery bad accounts were rife in reference talks,
stand ; and these unfavourable accounts were reported to
him. He (Lord Seymour) had also been informed that, if
he sanctioned the encroachment for any length of time,
there might be some difficulty in dispossessing the woman.
(Hear, hear.) In that state of things he applied to the
Duke of Wellington, as ranger of the park, before taking
any step, and the noble duke undertook to inquire into the
whole matter. Shortly after his grace wrote to him (Lord
Seymour) entirely concurring in his views. Ile (Lord
, Seymour) then referred thu entire correspondence to the
solicitors of the department. He also informed Ann
Hicks that, in the event of her withdrawing from
the occupation, she should be considered ; but
she actually did not stir until proceedings were
commenced against her. Although she had no legal
possession, yet he (Lord Seymour) paid her Ss. a week for
twelve months, a portion ef which money she employed in
getting placards printed and posted through the park, de.
tailing the hardship of her case. (A laugh) He might
say, iu conclusion, that no erection whatever was permitted
in the parks. His Royal Highness Prince Albert had built
a model cottage, but on being informed that it was contrary
to usage, he promised to remove it in November. (Hear,
hear.)
Lord D. STUART inquired how many years the hut of
Ann Hicks stood in the park ?
Lord SEYMOUR replied that, previous to 1843, she had
no hut.

The matter then dropped.
THE NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the hon. gentleman opposite
(Mr. Greene) would give some assurance, before the session
closed, that the house in which they were then assembled
would have no more heraldic devices entblasoned on its
windows. Such devices he had never seen. (Laughter.)
Mr. GREENE was understood to say that they were
then completed. (Laughter.)
Lord D. STUART wished to know if it were the inten-
tion of ministers to continue their sittings in that house ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
desirable that they should sit there, as by that means the
house would in every way be tested.
Mr. WAKLEY should observe that the atmosphere of the
house throughout last night was most dangerous to human life.
No provision whatever had been made for the ventilation
of the Louse, and therefore he thought it better they should
return to the old chamber.
MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
METROPOLITAN SEWERS COMMISSION.
...On the order of the day for going into committee on this

bill,
Mr. WAKLEY begged to move as an amendment that it
be committed that (lay three months. In his opinion the
various matters or sewers, intramural interments, and
water supply belonged to one department, land should be
regulated by. a single and comprehensive bill. Whilst
the commissioners were engaged in takh.g the money

out of t* rockets of the 'Metropolitan pViblie for the
abatement of sewers nuisances, that public were declaring
--,oners themselves were a greater nuisance.

that the

(Laughter.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS seconded the amendment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that the present bill intended merely to bridge over the
present year, and was therefore of an entirely temporary
nature. TIR measure would merely continue the present
commission• r in office through the present year until a
more general measure should be introduced.
Mr. O.OSBORNE begged to suggest that the commission
should wont on under the old bill until neat session;
and then la them commence in earnest. (Hear.)

After a few words from Lord 1). Smear,
Lord EBBINOTON said previous to the present
commissioners being appointed to office the coinmis-
stoners were appointed by the Lord Chancellor, under a
statute of Henry VIII. That commission was not pro-
vided with a system of maps and plans; and whatever
maps and plans were in their possession were much
better calculated to mislead them than to assist or expe-
dite them. Now, fur such bad and inefficient management,
the charge to the ratepayers in 1817 was a rate of 7s. on a
rental of 1001.. whilst under the present commission it was
only four saillin7s on the same amount of rental ;
and even a large portion of the money raised by that 4s.
rate went in procuring information that they should have
inherited from their predecessors in office. They had been
parochially maligned ; but it could nut be denied—indeed,
it had been admitted by a most hostile writer in the West-
nanster leech:le—that they had done good and efficient ser-
vice to the public. The new, that was, the present, com-
mission was appointed in 1819, since which period it had
been flippantly asserted by way of disparagement that they
had done nothing. Certainly, if he (Lord Ebrington) were
asked if they had effected all that was necessary for the sa-
nitary improvement of London, and if they had fulfilled all
the duties which the law imposed upon them, he would
answer they had not. (Hear, hear.) But when
the complicated nature of the system under which they had
worked was recollected, as also that they had an act with no
less than 116 clauses ; with all that cumbrous machinery
considered. the wonder should not be at how little, but
rather at how much, they had accomplished. At present the
subterranean survey might be considered all but complete,
there having been 760 miles of underground drainage sur-
veyed, and 4,448 acres of surface. 'I here were also two
courts held in each month instead of one, as formerly,
whilst upwards of 11,000 applications and 4,000 complaints
bad been attended to and disposed of. Since the commence-
' meat of the :iresent year the commissioners had completed
54,000 feet of pipe sewer and 15,000 feet of brick sewer.
Their engineering alone cost them 19,0001. iu the year; and
there were at present works to the amount of 150,0001.
planned and ready fur execution: so that when he asserted
their works were executed at half the cost of their prede-
cessors, he thought he might claim some credit that the
Commissioners of Sewers were not so entirely neglectful as
would seem of the duties entrusted to them for execution.
After some explanations regarding the Victorhostreet sewer,
Lord Ebrington said that, so far from courting secrecy, he
over and over again challenged hen. gentlemen to move fur
a committee, that the whole thing might be sifted. But
hon. gentlemen, in refusing to take that course, best knew
why ; and for his own part, lie should regret it had not been
taken, as then the SeWerSCOMIIIiSSiOII would be afforded the
opportunity of making everything clear and evident. At
the tiine of the old Surrey commission, there was a debt of
some 61,0001. pending. At the present time there was a
difference, they having reduced the liabilities of the tom-
mission by about 20,0001., notwithstanding the imputations.
In conclusion, he should say that the present bill of the go-
vernment did not embody many suggestions—most useful
and important suggestions—of tho sewers commissioners.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir B. lIALL thought the statement of the noble lord
most unsatisfactory. He was prepared to show that of all
the public board,: which had ever undertaken public duties,
the commission of sewers was the must unsatisfactory and
inefficient that had ever existed in the metropolitan dis-
tricts. No minutes of their proceedings were kept from the
11th of October to the 13th of the following May, the only
record of them being a note upon a little piece of dirty
paper, without signatures and without date. Yet this com-
mission had the power of levying a rate of 6d. in the pound
on upwards of 8,000,000/. of property. The fact was,
notwithstanding the effort of the noble lord to exhibit this
commission iu favourable contrast to the old one, the pre-
sent board had levied a rate of 50 per cent. greater than the
former one. In reference to the Victoria sewer that work
had cost 62 per cent. above the:contractiprice, and 45 per
above the estimate. In the last report on the Victoria
sewer there was a charge of 4001. for thither for shoreing
up Westminster Abbey, and a farther charge for concrete.
Surely the engineer ought to have known better than to
gone so near the Abbey, and that concrete would have been
required in carrying on a sewer through such a soil. By
the returns relating to the old commission it appeared that
their liabilities amounted to 58,0001., whereas the liabilities
of the present commission in the course of fourteen months
amounted to 135,0001. He complained of this bill not being
brought in at an earlier period of the cession, when it could
have been properly discussed. He entirely concurred in the
proposition that this commission should not last longer than
another year, and ho thought that a clause should be in-
serted in the bill to prevent the commissioners levying any
rate beyond the last rate of Gd. lie was convinced that
unless they had some system of representative control the
public would never be satisfied. The sooner that the pre-
sent commission was annihilated the better.

The house then ;enirjocoMMitiee—oirthis bill.

Earl POWIS moved the omission of the 19th clamp.
After a conversation, the galleries were cleared for a
division, but none took place, and the clause was agreed to.
On a subsequent clause,
The Duke of CLEVELAND moved that the three royal
hospitals of London, Christ's Hospital, St. Bartholomew's,
and St. Thomas's, should be exempted from the operation
of the bill. He was confident, from the constitution of the
mouaging body of these hospitals, that any abuse was im-
The Earl of WARWICK seconded the amendment.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said the details of the ma-
nagement would not be interfered with by the bill, and un-
less they were prepared to omit every charity they could
not make an exception in favour of those referred to by the
noble duke. .

After a few words from the Earl of CHICRILSTIR, and
10 Marquis of SALISBURY,
The amendment was negatived without a division.
The remaining clauses were then agreed to and the house

The Leasehold Tenure of Laud (Ireland) Act Amend-
lent Bill passed through committee.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter past cloven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.7TrEsDAT, 70LT 29.

The Sroxickapok the chair at 12 o'clock:

Tun CRYSTAL YALAt•i• PoR 'FPRES-EN-IEIiRB RTTENTION OP.-- By
Mr. B. OSBORNE, fromS Kensington ; Mr.
ARCHIBALD HASTIE, from Paisley; Mr. R.PALMER,
from Maidenhead; Sir .1. WALMSLEY and Messrs.
PUSEY, HEYWOOD, OEACH, and EWART, from
places not stated. Also by Colonel SIBTIIORP, from
Chelsea and Kensington, to the same s ffect. In presenting
this petition, the gallant colonel said that be by no means
eoneurred in its prayer, and that, should any proposition
for retaining the building be brought forward by the mi-
nister, he should oppose it.
BOARD OP BRISIBS.—By Sir B. HALL, from Mary-
lebone, complaining of the inefficiency of the Boma of
Sewers.

Mr. HENLEY considered the defence made by the noble
lord opposite (Lord Ebrington) a very unsatisfactory one.
waascossmtomti
commissioner
rapt
proposed
obleeby the
ball,
t i nnmad
to
who should be salaried, and be in constant attendance to
appointmentUBS E Loi
ice,
t he'lj•
wind up the affairs of the commission. That, in his opinion,
was the chief merit of the bill. They were all agreed that
it was necessary, in order to bring the affairs of the commis-
sion to an issue, to renew it for a year, and he therefore
could not see what objection there could be to pass the bill.
After a short conversation,
Mr. WAKLEY replied, and the gallery was cleared for a
division, but none took place, and the house went into com-
mittee on the bill, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
Clauses 1 to 4 were, after a division on each of the first
two, and one on 4 for reporting progress, agreed to.
On clause 5,
Mr. HENLEY moved to insert, " Provided also that no
rate or rates amounting to more than threepence in the
pound shall be made by the said commissioners.'
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the motion, on the ground that if it were carried the
commissioners would be unable to clear off their arrears of
debt.
After a short conversation,
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed to the motion.
The words were then inserted.
The clause was then agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the bill were then agreed to,
and the house adjourned at half-past four to half-past six.
The sitting was resumed at half-past six.
THE CHURCH PAROCHIAL SYSTEM.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD gave notice for early:next
session of a motion for an inquiry into the necessity and
means of extending the parochial system of tho church of
England.
Some other notices of motion were given, but the low
tone in which this part of tho business is transacted, the
bus of conversation prevailing in the house the while, and
the height of the reporters' gallery from the floor in the
new house, rendered itimpossible to gather their purport.
VISITORS TO HAMPTON_ COURT AND KEW

CASE OF ANN HICKS,
Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to know from the noble lord
the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, whether
„

Ann Hicks held • home in Hyde-park by the lift of
George the Second, or by what tenure she occupied the I
house from which she had been evicted ?
Lord SEYMOUR mid, in reply to the first question,
whether Ann Hicks held a house by the gift of George 11.,
that she did not, or by the giR of any other royal indivi-
dual; and the first time that he (Lord Seymour) heard any-
thing of that was a few weeks ago. He would inform the
house of the matter. (" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sib.
there.) In 1843 Ann Hicks had a stall in the park,
where she sold apples and ginger beer. Previous to that
time she had a conduit in one of the parks. In 1843 she
applied to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to be
permitted to have a stand for the security of her bottles and
apples, and was permitted to erect one of wood, something
similar to the cow stands in St. James's Park. She sub-
sequently wrote again, requesting permission to erect
a brick stand instead of a timber one, on the
ground of affording greater security. Up to that '
time there had been nothing said about a royal gift.',
Permission was ranted her to erect a brick stand, some-
thing about the use of those in St. James's Park, and of
the height of five feet. Next year again she wrote to the
Commissioners of Woods and }meets, thanking them, and
stating that, though she did not intend to reside in the
stand, nevertheless she would feel obliged by being per-
mitted to construct a tire-place, (or the purpose of supply-
ing herself with boiling water to make a cup of tea.
(Laughter.) That was refused by the commissioners, but
notwithstanding, some time after the stand or stall was

On the motion of Sir O, Pecnau, a return was ordered
of the number of visitors admitted to see the apartments
and pictures at Hampton Court, and the gardens at Kew,
during the year 1850; distinguishing the number in each
month (in continuation of parliamentary paper, No. 494, of
session 1850.)

THE DEFALCATION OF SIR T. TURTON.
In reply to a question from Viscount JOCELYN,
Mr. ELIOT said he had received no accounts from India
on the subjecatifthe settlement of the claims of those who
had snared from the defalcation of Sir T. Turton, since
the 22nd of February. It was found that a local act
would be necessary to authorise the settlement of those
claims, and such an act had been introduced, but whether
it had passed the council or not ho could not say. A re-
quirement for Rinker information had been sent out, and
should the result be that the act had passed, the claims ho
apprehended would be speedily in course of adjustment.
THE HOP DUTY.
Mr. FREIVEN rose to move. pursuant to notice, that
the Excise duty on hops was impolitic and unjust, and
ought to be repealed at an early period. After referring to
the various motions brought forward from time to time to
repeal, reduce, or postpone payment of this duty, and call-
ing attention to the fact that his object was not to interfere
with the financial arrangements of the present year, but to
obtain a pledge from the house for the future, he observed
that the total repeal of the tax would involve a sacrifice of
not more than 300,000/. it year oft the average, which, con-
sidering the severity with which the tax pressed on the
hop growers in general, and his constituents in particular,
by whom about one-third of the whole was paid, its injuri-
ous effects in limiting the cultivation of the plant, and
thus preventing the growers from providing against bad
seasons, was no unreasonable demand.
Mr. FULLER seconded the motion.
Mr. HODGES, who was all but inaudible in the gallery,
moved as an amendment, that on any reduction of excise
duty on hops taking place, it is expedient to reduce the
excise duty on British hops, and the customs duty on
fore'gn hops, by one penny per pound weight each, toge-
ther with the 5 per cent. additional duty thereon granted
by the act 3 Vie., c. 17.
Sir G. PECHELL seconded the amendment.
After a few words from Mr. BANUOW and Mr. Curcrets,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said this
was the fourth time during the present session that the hop
duty had been brought under the consideration of the
house. Ile need not, therefore, repeat now what lie had
so frequently observed before on the subject. It was mani-
fest that the duty could not be repealed at a time like the
present, when the financial arrangements of the year had
been made; and, as to the future, no promise could be
made. Ile hoped the house would concur with him in re-
jecting the motion.
Sir J. TYRELL said her Majesty's ministers had gone
upon the principle of treating the burdens on land in a
very c 'taker manner, relying upon the imbecility and crip-
pled state of the protectionist party.
Mr. COBDEN would vote for the repeal of the hop
duty, and the house might rely upon it that if the excite
duty on hops were abolished the protecting duty
on the foreign article would not, with a free-
trade parliament, long remain on the statute book.
Whether tt e hon. mover divided the house or not, he (Mr.
Cobden) went with him heartily in desiring to witness its
abolition. (Ilene )
After a few words from Mr. BASS, Mr. lloilvs withdrew
his amendment, Mr. Freweit briefly replied, and the house
divided—
For the motion
Against it
THE CRYSTAL PALACE.

Mr. HEYWOOD rose to move' pursuant to notice, that
an address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her
Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct, in such man-
ner as to her Majesty may seem fit, that the Crystal Palace
be preserved until the Ist of May next, with a view to de-
termine if that novel structure, or any portion of it, can be
adapted to purposes of public utility and recreation. The
hon. member observed that this was a question with the
hearings of which the house was well acquainted. llis ob-
ject in introducing this motion was to afford an opportunity
of securicg a great public advantage which would
not soon recur. There had been great complaint made
by parties resident in the neighbourhood of thee inconve-
niences which they had suffered in consequence of the
increase in the traffic of Kensington-road, in connexion
with the Exhibition. These complaints were, no doubt,
well founded ; but he apprehended that all such
complaints would cease, should the glass palace be
converted into a conservatory or a museum. The
proposal which he now made to the house was,
to emotion the building remaining as it is for a
certain time, in order that inquiry might be made as
to the scientific purposes to which, the Exhibition over, it
might he converted. Objections had been urged to the
suggestion that the building should be retained on the
ground that it was not of a material calculated to endure.
lie believed, however, that the iron work was exceedingly
good, and that though the timber was Canadian it would
last for several years. There would, of course, be consi-
derable expense incurred in keeping such an edifice
in a proper state of repair ; but, at all events,
he thought it was well worthy of consideration whether
the Crystal Palace might not be advantageously retained as
a winter garden for the recreation of the metropolitan
public. Those gentlemen who were fond of riding and
took exercise in Hyde-park found the row often wet and
sloppy ; and be thought a covered ride would be to such
persons a great luxury. The conservatory in the Botanical
Gardens, Regent's-park, was exactly the model, on a
smaller scale, of what he wished to see in Hyde-park.
There were many other purposes which they might accom-
plish by the retention of the Crystal Palace. I he British
Museum was too crowded. It lead but just space enough
for the books and the antiquities ; and he thought the third
department, the collection of objects in natural history,
might be properly and usefully transferred and exhibited
under glass in Hyde-park. (Hear, hear.) So far, every-
thing connected with the Great Exhibition had been most
satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) The conuuissiouers had done
themselves the highest honour, and too much could not be
raid in praise of the illustrious prince with whom the idea
of the Exhibition had its origin. The duties of the prince
and his coadjutors were now coming to a close; and their
present intention was to close the Crystal Palace on the lot
September. They were further hound by their contract to
remove the building altogether by the Ist of June.
15.12. What he (Mr. Heywood) asked the louse was that
the commissioners should be granted a delay up to the lit
May, with a view to steps being taken whereby the legisla-
ture could authorise the commissioners to retain possession
of the building altogether. Ile was authorised to state on
the part of Messrs. Fox and Henderson the contractors,
that they would hold themselves in readiness to treat with
the commissioners as regarded the Ist May upon the Mille
terms as bad been agreed to as regarded the Ist September.
(Hear, hear.) Ile thought that Mr. Paxton and Messrs.
Fox and Henderson had distinguished themselves greatly
in the design and execution of the Crystal Palace—
(hear, hear)—and he should be glud if a considerable sum
were awarded them, as an acknowledgment of their services,
as soon as the commmissioners came to close their accounts.

ben, had, nevertheless, as far as he knew, not her n the
occasion of a single police case. (Cheers.) A circumstance
which had been most satisfactory to Englishmen and
foreigners was this :—that these vast crowds had not neces-
sitated any display of military power. (Cheers.) Ile w„,14
say a few words upon the subject practically Isefor, the
house. The proposal was not that the house should pbage
itself to the permanent maintenance of the budding
erected for the purposes of the Exhibition, but that thu
house should interfere to grant a sort of reprieve to the
commissioners. On this poiut, he, as a commissioner, and
as a member of the government, begged to decline t.x_
pressing an opinion. As a commissioner and as a member
of the government, he had pledged himself lineiii,„gy
to certain conditions. lie hail pledged himself that the
building should at a certain time be pulled down and re.
moved ; and not for a hundred crystal palaces would he
that that pledge should be broken. On this OCCaliioll he
would simply state the position in which the commis.
sinners stood. In the transaction with Messrs. Fox
and Henderson, the commissioners had no alter-
native. They had engaged the building for a certain time,
to he used only for the purposes of the Exhibition, and then
handing it over to be pulled down ; and engaging to pur-
chase it in case it was retained beyond a certain time. At
the present moment the commissioners had paid, or bad
promised to pay, in round numbers, 120,0001. for the us • of
the building_; and if they bought it they would further
have to pay 70,0001. more ; making altogether, for loan and
purchase, 190,000!. Unless they gave notice to Me.srs.
Fox and Henderson by, the Ist of September, they would ho
bound to purchase the building outright. Unless, tloTe.
fore, his hon. friend (Mr. Heywood) was right in the state-
ment as to the views of Messrs. Fox nail Henderson
—(Mr. Heywood : Yes, I have the authority of Mr.
Paxton)—tho commissioners would he obliged to wive

this notice, even if the building were to stand.
There was a further contract with the Woodi and For,sts;
and by thut contract they would also be compelled to pull
the building down. Ile did not wish to offer any ar,m-
ments, one way or the other. He would express no per-
sonal opinion. The house knew exactly how the meter
was, and it was entirely a question for hon. members and
the public to decide. (Hear, hear.) In accordance with
what he believed to be his duty ho would abstain (runt
voting.
Sir It. INGLIS, subscribing to the statements made by
Mr. Labouchere of the-results of the Exhibition, still
thought that the house W3l not at liberty to alter the ar-
rangements. It should be looked at simply its a question
of contract, which could not be gut rid of, except by an act
of parliament.
Mr. EWAItT supported the motion. An opportunity
was offered which hail never presented itself before, and
which should not, he thought, be neglected.
Mr. M'OltEGOlt likewise spoke in favour of the motion.
Ile considered it would be rash to consent to the immediate

demolition of the palace.
Colonel THOMPSON suggested various reasons for pre-
serving the building.
Mr. GOULBURN must be governed by a principle of
good faith, and he put it to every one whether the building
would ever have risen if there had not been a distinct
assurance given that when the object of the Exhibition had
been answered the site should be restored to its original
condition ? If this was so, no consideration would warrant
a departure from the arrangement. Independently of this
objection, Mr. Ooulburn suggested various iiiitlenlties in
the way of the conversion of the edifice to other purposes.
Mr. WAK.LEY said the contract was by the public with
the public ; and who, he asked, could contemplate without
pain the destruction of such an institution, the temple ,if
peace as well as science, connected with the noblest as
toms that could cuter the mind of man ? Forty-nine out of
fifty of the inhabitants of London would vote fur the pre-
servation of the Crystal Palace.
Mr. I3ANKES, though not for the destruction of the
palace, was not fur its continuance in its present site, which
would be a violation of public faith.
Lord SEYMOUR said this was the reason why he must
, vote against the motion. The first minister of the crown had
distinctly told the house that the building was not intend, d
to be permanent, and the commissioners had given a solemn
' assurance that it should be removed.
Mr. C. VILLIEILS thought it would be an ungracious
thing to refuse to keep up the building for a few mouths to
try the exlwrituent of a winter garden.
Mr. CLAY considered the difference of opinion a gold
reason for delay.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER cautioned
the house that it was necessary to consider what might Is'
the expense of converting this building into a winter gar-
den. In the first place, the country must be prepared to
take upon itself the payment of 70,0001., which might Ie
called for. Moreover, it could not be maintained as a pr-
manent building without a considerable outlay. The most
solemn pledges having been given that the building should
be taken down, more than a mere majority of the house
was required to set aside this stipulation. As a memo, rof
the government, he should express no opinion upon the
motion. _ _

After a few words from Mr. itEADLAX and Mr. Gi;

in favour of the motion,

The house divided—.
1•'or the motion 75
Against it
The unnounc,ment of the numbers was received wi
loud cheers.

(Hear.) The west end was at present sadly in want of a
place of public resort. He did not know of any resort at
all for gentlemen but Tattersall's Corner. (" Hear, hear,"
and laughter.) It would he a great loss if so beautiful a
building us the Crystal Palace were unnecessarily pulled
down. It constituted a new order of architecture, and he
thought that when the wonders of this century came to be
recorded, the railways, the penny pest, and the Crystal
Palace would be regarded as the prominent great tacts.
(Hear, hear.) There were associations connected with
the Crystal l'alace, which it was not desirable to destroy.
Col. SIBTHORP (who rose amid great laughter)
offered his earnest opposition to this motion. (Ironical
cheers.) lie had opposed the proposition of the Great
Exhibition from the beginning ; and he would consistently
oppose all that followed from that Exhibition. (Great
laughter.) Ho had regarded the appropriation of land in
Hyde-park, to the purposes of that Exhibition, as a gross
attack on the rights of the people of this country ; and it
was with the utmost gratification he had found such
eminent persons as Lord Brougham, Lord Campbell, and
Mr. Justice Cresswell, concurring in the opinions which
he had expressed at the outset. What had been the result?
The desecration of the Sabbath. (Laughter.) The demoralisa.
tion of the people. (Laughter.) The disunion of parties.
(Great laughter.) The people had been 'educed— (laughter)
—aye, seduced to come up from their homes to London to
see this transparent humbug—this harmonious confedera-
tion—this
world's fair. (Much laughter.) The people had
scraped together and borrowed money to come up. They
had spent that money, and (the hon. and gallant colonel
spoke here in the most solemn manner) they had gone back
without a penny. (Roars of laughter.) What followed
this? Poverty and distress and ruin. The whole
country had experienced this. Ask the tradesmen of the
metropolis—ask the tradesmen of the provincial towns—
they all said their trade was lost—their customers were at
the Exhibition. (Laughter.) This was a fact, deny it who
can. (Laughter.) The Crystal Palace was a wonderful
building externally—he admitted it. (Hear, hear.) Of
its appearance internally he know nothing. He had denied
himself the opportunity—it might be the gratification—of
entering it, for his opinions were very strong in regard to
the Exhibition, and he believed it would have been desert-
ing the duty which he owed to his country if he had in any
way encouraged the delusion which he had denounced. (Great
laughter.) He altogether objected to the proposition to
perpetuate this nuisance. Morally, religiously, and soci-
ally it had been a great curse to the country, and he wanted
to get rid of it.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would not follow the gallant
officer through his discursive speech. Ile did not agree
with the hon. and gallant gentleman in his general estimate
of the merits of the Great Exhibition. His own belief was
that that Exhibition had not only ministered tolthe gratifica-
tion of hundreds of thousands of persons of all ranks and
conditions ; but that its effects upon trade, and upon the
arts and sciences contributing to the happiness of human
life, would not be inconsiderable. (Cheers.) With the
hon. and gallant gentleman he differed, indeed, so com-
pletely, that he would not attempt any arguments, being
quite content to leave the verdict to the country. (Cheers.)
The honourable and gallant gentleman had, how-
ever, made one or two observations which re-
quired reply. The gallant officer had spoken of the
demoralisation of the people. (" Hear, hear, " from
Colonel Sibthorp.) He (Mr. Labouchere) believed that
nothing could be more moral, more humanising, or more
civilising, than the spectacle which we had this year wit-
nessed in this city. (Cheers.) He had seen with admira-
tion the magnificent assemblage of the works of industry
of this and other nations collected within that marvellous
structure which the genius of Mr. Paxton had erected in
Hyde-park. (Cheers.) Yet there was another spectacle
which he had witnessed with still greater delight, and that
had been the orderly manner of the hundreds and thousands
of our fellow-countrymen of all ranks and claws., congre-
gated in London from the great hives of industry scattered
over the land, and from the agricultural towns and villages
—(cheep)--and so conducting themselves that there had not
been a single breach of the peace caused by them—a fact which
was at variance with those predictions of scenes of disorder,
of which they had heard so much at the beginning of the
year. (Cheers.) Not less gratifying bad been•the influx
of foreigners, who, visiting our shores in enormous num-