The Express.
London, England, 1851-03-29 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 29, 1851.

thiteonwirourerlaP:bc:..:ada.nti-.tihisailtbumilee thereforebfojlottlhitieanohndouosef
W
liiem.
am he
nee
hldomi
„rd.
Ideclaration made by the Seeretary of State for the Home i would come on the first thing, because if it did he thought i yentoott made their
Department, to limit the measures of the government for it would not be right•
the repression of papal encroachments to the single clause ! Lord J. RUSSELL said it would.
lIOUSE OF LORD.— FRIDAY, MARCH ‘415. of the Ectleeiastical Titles Bill. which declares the ine.ni- Mr. ADDERLEY withdrew his motion. I and seeing that they had referred the question ton eom-
I
TM LORD Cif ANCYLLOR took his scat at five o'clock. , ing of the 24th section of 10 Geo. IY., c. 7 ; and who THE BUDOE'f. 1 mittee. (Hear, hear.) It was quite right that they
PAPAL AGGRESSION. 1 her Majesty's government will mist auy attempt to en- . Mr. III:ME understood that the budget was not to come should keep up hospitals for those persons who had
Earl Fir ZW ILLIAM, nd Presenting rthinna agairot large the scope of the Eeekelastical 'l,lles Hai, aid to on nu albeiday evening, and that he considared was a breach not fricede or relations to take care of them, and who
papal aggression, expressed his regret b hat tbc bill bad been , render itil Previsions more stringtnt, as, for Luta:ice, by of the und:rstanding made with the houee, and therefore a ' were n able to do anything for thenrelves elsewhere to
so mutilated by her alajesty's gos eminent, 'oaten no plebe extending the ye naltiis to persons giving as well as breach of good faith. When his hon. friend the member increase their comforts. But that was only a small
=rotary ground had been laid for abandoning the clauses ' weiell or chiming the titles there prohibited—bv extending for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) submitted Ibis motion, be : portion of the army. (Hear, hear.) Now, as regarded
which dud been struck out of the hill, and which were the penalties to the asaumption or of
by British subjecs of (Mr. Hume) seconded it for the purpose of asking him to , the comforts of the pensioners, both English awl Irish,
neesary to give effect to the act. The tontines,. with : any title, ecclesiastical or riTular, as of cardinal, eminence, withdraw it, in order to allow the Chancellor of the Exehe- ! who served in the army, it should be recollected also that a
which parliament wit. Proceeding with this hill would ex- ' ale. not conferred or authorised by the Sovereign—by. ea. quer to make his statement. But if now the budget was I few years ago the government proposed to give the benefit
cite in the minds of the people of England a tendency t‘i- ' tending the samo to the publication of papal laulla,rescripte, postponed what security would they nave ? They would .of certain deductions to the pensioners, by which they
wards. iotokr.ut .pint „I,kh h. ,thoold regret tr, ..„ ',or other document., without the conaent of the Crown, and lcive the navy, the army, and the ordnance, which were got an addition of 50,0001. a year, which was charged to
All he feared was that the establishment of these Pees, with .to the holding of xyriodical meetings, &c., and by permit- the principal votes of supply, passed, and then the budget the country in the army edimatce. (Hear, hear.) That
territorial titles and reddened would have a great effect in ling the penalties to he sued for without the intervention of was to come on. He did not think that this was treating the ; was an addition concerning the comforts of those
spreading the Roman catholic religion ; and it was against the Attorne y-bleneral—and by enlarging the preamble of house fairly. (Hear, hear.) lie considered, theretbre, that 1 who
.served in the army. But with regard to the
that he desired to arm their lordship., and to legislate, and the bill, so as to render it declaratory of the opinion of the house should not proceed with the vote' until they I question, it concerned Out a small number of soldiers.
fur that mason he thought the measure, as originally pro-
•Parliament on the entire question of papal aggression? ,had the budget before them. (Hear, hear.) If the thing IThere were bet from one hundred to two hundred pen-
pewit, was a leis, one, but they might have a good measure ' Lord J. RUSSELL thought it was unnecessary to add had been unexpected, it would have been a different mat- 'Ounces to receive the benefit of the hospital in Ireland, and
spoilt by au inefficient hill. 'anything to what had been already said by his right hon. ' ter; but the government bad had two or three weeks to , the question was, whether they were to provide for the in-
The Earl of .Clint
hail various petitions, froml friend the Home Secretary on this subject. Before the consider the matter, and consequently they had no excuee. 1 pensioners one or two establishments—the great expense of
different Roman catholic communities, against the Ecele- Easter recess any hon. member intending to prepare In fact, it looked as if they were taking advantage of the these establishments arising from the officers and governor,
siastical Title* Bill, but which he was unable to lay on 1 aniendmeota in committee should give two or three days' . disposition of the house to forward their objects; and they and not from the number of men in them. These were
their to
tilde, and he was is great hope that he notice, and he would then state the course the government (the members) would be liable, if they acquiesced in it, questions which would be fairly considered by the commit-
should never have to ',dent them at all, ea he trusted the 1 were prepared to adopt. 'to the suspicion of neglecting their own duties. (Hear, tee. But, at rill evente, he thought that the house ought
bill would never find As way to their lordships' house. lie • Mr. V. AK LEY rose, and was proceelling to offer a few ' hear.) He begged, therefore, to it
own
" That this house not to prejudge the queation—(hear, hear)—and he clid not
bows via had a petition to Pm. from the Roman catho- !observation, on the statement which hail been made by the 1 is of opinion that her Majesty's government ought, agree- think the bowie would he wise in saying that they ought to
lies of the couuty of clare, which
eh prayed generally egginit noble lord (lord J. Russell), but he was met with cries of ably with their promise, to bring forward their budget be- . adopt economy, and when they attempted economy not to
penal ,soul towards lice Majesty's Roman catholic ' " Order, order," and sat down. I fore proceeding further with the supplies." (Hear, hear.). apnrove of it. (Hear, hear.)
bull. ete, and which lie would lay on the table. THE CHUR.CII OF ENGLAND. IHe was not aware that there was any obstacle to their rDISItAELI said that the noble lord had put this
Earl IlltEi sail then, coald Ito no doubt that the noble Mr. lIORSMAN gave notice that on an early day he bringing forward their budget, and therefore he would question on the ground that a committee was sitting up
earl might tio oast the Petitiaa in question, inasmuch a.. would call the attention ~r the house to the condition of the • submit the motion he had just read to the house. (Hear, stairs, and that it would not be wise in the house to come to
the bill to which he• hal referred was not a penal enactment. ' church of England, and ask the houee to pass an opinioul hear.) any decision in this matter till that committee had reported.
(Hear, hear.) 111.: did not think that the noble earl's anti- '. both as to its temporal and spiritual affairs. (A laugh.) The SPEAKER said that the resolution was not in But the Secretary at War bad already decided. (Cheers.)
eipation of the bill not naschina their lordships was likely ' AYLESBURY AND ST. ALBANS ELEC'IIONS. order, because the motion of the hon. member for Porter- That committee ale was appointed at the instance
to he lied from what he saw on the vides of the other The petition of Mr. CALVERT, which was presented yes- lingtua (Colonel Dunne) was now before the house. of the government, and not at the instance of the house,
—a • few ilays -- (" Hear," and a Laugh.) terday, and printed with the votes, in reference to the coin-1 Mr. W. W I LLIViIS rose to or the motion of his as stated be the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) He
. .._
- ' - "the hon. member's election fur A)leibury, was', hon. friend (air. Hume), hut a shout of laughter made him looked upon this us a queation of the game nature as the
he ' ''', of a breach of order. question for the abolition of the Lord-Lieutenant, though
...
The question

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

110•10 • 6 -14 $4O. .
Their lord...lap' soljounsed quArtvr b.' fort 6 o'clock.

aware that he was guilty of a breach of orovi.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not recollect having
given any understanding, or made any promise, that the
government should bring forward the budget Isidore they
had got the supplies. lie certainly thought that, accord-
ing to the theory of the hon. member for Montrose (Mr.
Hume), the govorrimmat, having a surplus in hand, would
be perfectly justified in proceeding with the estimates be-
fore the suppliee. (A laugh.)
Mr. \V. WILLIAMS expressed his surprise that the
budget hail not been considered before th, y had been called
lon to vote any further portion of the supplies. If the hon.
member for Montrose should take an opportunity of moving
his resolution he should certainly support it, for he con
I 'Acted its principle most salutary. (Hear, bear)
I Mr. 11. OSBORNE said he would never pledge himself to
I atop the supplies, whatever constituency he might represent.
(norms At the same time, however, he must cis that
1 the noble lord (Lord .1. Russell) had hardly acted quite
fa irillyw bcyliiii:itNsezpi.i;ololteo•
"Itinofththate house.
EQ UER remarked
that the hon. member for Montrose must be ass are of the
excellent and sound system which had of late been adopted,
namely, that of requiring all balances to he paid before the
lend of the financial year; besides which the Mutiny Bill
would expire, on the litho( April. These two circumstances
rendered it absolutely necessary that they should proves d
with the estimates, or they would stop the public service.
(blear, hear.) Now he eould make his statement just as
well on Monday as on Friday night, hut bir the reason he
had mentioned; and hes was sure that hon. gentlemen did
not wish either to initiede the government, or to put an end
to the sound system now practised. (I lean)
Viscount JOCELYN postponed his motion for the ap-
pointment of a select committee on amain communication
with India, Itc., until Mond cy next.
Mr. HENLEY suggested that the committee should with-
hold the Dames of all persons connected with the two great
1 rival comp ink.. Ile thought those persons should give
evidence. (('hiens
Sir B. HALL understood the noble lord, after the division
the other night, that he would take the army estimates,
mil that he would then make his financial statement;
but at the earlier writal of the session, he had distinctly
underdood the noble lord to say that he would take the
nosy estimates, and that he would then lay betide the
house his financial views. (Hear, hear.) -Now, if that
understanding was come to—and such was certainly the
impression on his (Sir B. Hall's) mind—he thought they
ought to have that statement before they proceeded to
grant the estimates.
Sir DE LACY EVANS also thought that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should make his financial statement on
Monday. The noble lord (Lord John Russell) had given
notice of a most important motion lid that night; hut
then, was a subject of fir more importance and of much
deeper interest to the inhabitants of the metropolis and
of the large towns, namely, the window tax. (Cheers.)
The proposition of the right hon. baronet (Sir Charles
Wood) on that subject had given universal dissatisfaction;
and he believed that that proposition would he altered.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought that the house ought to be
informed on the Kaffir war before they went into the finan-
cial question.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH gave notice that he should
move, on Monday night, " That it is the duty of the execu-
tive xiiverninent to take steps to relieve this country, as
speedily as possible, from any expert... 4.• on account of any
war with the Kaffir's, or tither tribes." (Hear, bear.)
Mr. W. BROWN was understood to say that the Ame-
rican government hail declined to impose any duty on
British goods. They had ulou agreed to value them at the
prices it the port where they were shipped, instead of at
those of the market where they seem bought. This would
he a great boon. (Heart)
Colonel DUNNE rose to propose a resolution, of which
1 he had given notice.
Mr. HUME rose to order, but .
The SPEAKER. derided that Colonel Dunne was in
possession of the house.
Colonel DU N N E then moved the followiag resolution:
"That orders hosing hem given not to receive any more
petsioners into the Royal Military Asylum at Kilmainham,
it may be inferred that it is the intention of her Majesty's
government to abolish that establishment, and it is the opi-
nion of this house that ouch abolition is nut advisable.
' 1. Ihrailot unjust to the old soldiers of Ireland who have
served her Majesty and been worn out in the service of the
country ; 2. Because the land on which the royal hospital
was erected was granted by Charlie H. tic trustees, for the
purpose of erecting an asylum fur the reception of the old!,
withers of Ireland, and that asylum was built by means of
a fund created by deductions from the pay of Irish sol-
dier.; 3. Because the saving which would be effected by
such abolition would be so inconsiderable as to give no
colour fur ouch injustice, the expense of supporting a pen-
shiner at Kilmainham being much less titan at Chel-
sea; 4. Because the transfer of the Irish establishment to
Enuland seems part of a system of centralisation unjust
and ruinous to Ireland. and impolitic, as tending to weaken
those feedings of mutual interest which can be the
only basis of union between the two countries."
Ile conceived such abolition unjust to the old soldiers of
Ireland, stated that the land on which the Royal Hospital
was erected was granted by Charles 11. to trustees for the
perpraie of building such asylum, and that it was built by
deduction, from the pay of Irish soldiers, and the hon.
member eontentled that the transfer of the Irish establish-
ment to England was part of au unjust and highly a
of centralisation ; that the eatablishment was highly useful,
and that its removal would prove a great injustice to the
Irish soldiery, while accomplishing a very trivial saving of
money.
Mr. GIIATTAN seconded the motion, contending that
what the orders complained of p posed to do could be done
only by act of purlianient. es
Mr. GROGAN showed that Lord Stanley found strong
reasons fur preserving the establishment in 183.1, and argued
that the reason* now existing in the circumstances of the
country were stronger still.
Mr. FOX MAULE assured the Irish members that no
immediate extinction of the establishment Was in contem-
plation, and a vote for its maintenance appeared
upon the estimates of the current year. There was, how-
ever, a growing preference among the auldiery for the out-
pension system, and thediaribledsoldierslived with their own
families instead of finding refuge in Chelsea anti Kilmain-
ham. This latter establishment had not, as was asaerted,
been built by deductions from the Irish soldier: pay; and
though it was a fact that the ground on which it stood was
held under a charter, and could not he alienated except by I
an act of parliament ; yet the ministry were at any moment i
authorised to diacontinue the admission of pensioners. No
single inmate who had acquired a title to his room would be
removed against his will, but a large part of the building
was already occupied by officers, and it had become a place
rather of show than of use. Plenty of room being at their
disposal in Chelsea Hospital, and the in-pensions becoming
perpetually more unpopular, be considered the ultimate
abandonment of Kilmainham very desirable, although at
present nothing more was dour than the issuing of °niers
not to admit any new pensioners except by special orders
from himself as Secretary at War.
Sir DE LACY EVANS was surprised to hear no stronger
a defence. Ile contended that both Chelsea and Kilmain-
ham were most economical establishments, and, as a soldier,
he attached great importance to their existence. And as to .
the plea of unpopularity, if that were true, why was not '
Char, ato be abolished , He denied the unpopularity, and
thought that economy a bad one which was to be main-
tained at the expense of maimed soldiers.
Colonel RAWDON earnestly opposed the abolition of !
Kilmainham, as did
Lord NAAS, who reiterated, that up to 17% Kilmainham
had been maintained out of the actual pay of the Irish
soldiers.
After a few words from Mr. F. Manic in reply,
Mr. REYNOLDS said that this step had not been
prompted by economy, but by a desire to deprive Ireland of
every vestige of nationality.
Sir 11. VERNEY denied the unpopularity of these insti- ,
tutions, and reminded the house that half the British army I
was composed of Irishmen, whose feelings ought to be
regarded. .
Mr. 111.731 E asserted that the time for such institutions
had guile by, and he shook' be happy to vote for putting an
end to Chelsea as well as Kilmainham. He defended the
government, which was doing its utmost towards getting
rid of unnecessary establishments.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS (amidst cries of " Divide !") said
that there were but 175 men in Kilmainham, with 4G officers
to look after them.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that before the house divided he
wished them to consider the result of the vote to which it
was proposed that they should come. The house was
pleased two years ago to refer the question of the naval
and mill' .ry expenditure to a committee of the house.
the rosonittee had sat for two years, and it was ;gain re-
appoint a the present year. That committee had not

mittee on the non. mesa-. -
then Mall at the table.
Mr. AOLD/NRY said that as the point of law involved
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FUI DAT, MARCH 28. in the owe of Aylesbury, and that involved in the petition
The Srßaga& took the chair at four o'clock. presentnce to St. Albans, which he (Mr. Aglionby) had
I'UBLIE 1117 SIN I:SS. d yesterday, acre nearly the eame, he would be
NEW WRITSe-LEOAL PROMOTIONS. content that the decision of the house in the one case should
Mr. itAvr Eli, Secretary to the I reasury, moved that • rule the other. Ile did not know how many committers had
new writ be issued for thi election of it burgess to serve been named under similar circumstances, hut he knew !
k parliament for the hoonigh of Ikeimport, in the room of 1 that the matter involved the wan of at least two members
Sir John Hominy. late her Majesty•• Attorney-General, who sit on his ride of the house. The house, however, in
who hail been promoted to thu office of Master of the ronsidering the question, would discard from their minds ,
]t
Mr.-II all considerations as to who would be affected by the 4CCi.
Mr. IIAYTEIt again rose, and moved that • new shin. In referring to these petitions he would only trouble 11
writ he issued foe the cli etion of a WIN'S. to serve in : the house with a 1441111, nt regarding that which be had
parliament for the tiiv,ii awl emitity ..f Soutluoupton, in the ' had the honour of presenting yesterday-the St. Albans.l
plate of Sir Alexander JAM, Coralotrn, late Solicitor- The le titiun stated that an infonnasty had been rommitted ; I
Otneml, who haul aereliti .1 the 011ie( a her Itlajosty's that the petition eg.tinst the return of the nientlter for St.!
wane •
Isl msral.-- I hri1,,,,1. Albano had not been add:reseed to your honottrable 1 se,
Mr. 11 A VI Ell nose for the third time, and moved nor to any court or tribunal whatever ; and the ronclusion I,
that • new writ In i,meil for the (teeth.% of it bur- !that it was inumilesl for your honourable house can only be 1
gess to s. rye in ',ornament for the city of Oxford, in the drawn from the reading of the entire petition, and is merely I
rums of William Paer. Wood, Esq., who had accepted the an inference, not a positive averment. If it had been a pe-
els,( of her mop gy•• Solieitor-fimieral.-Ordered. titiun On any ordinary question it would have been at onc••
110L111E.%1/ 14%10101AL. thrown Isn't,. Ily the act it was required that intimation of
Mr. It EY NOLIOS gave entire that he would move for a the intention to nominate the committeesslontlel he published
rtaiirn reels cling the ~.on, y i mantled in the works con- with the votes " not less thin fourteen days" bc- i
nect.-.1 with Iliityh• at Harbour, with a view to ascertain fore such nomination. The quest* then was 'amply
the authority by wlMb those some had been so czpindell. as to whether " not less than fourte en days" meant teurteen
111)1' DISTItICTS. clear il vs or net. The practice, he WA. informed, wits to
Mr FREW EN e ire with,. that, on the motion for construe thee' fourteen days" to mean one day exclusive,
going into a committee of supply, hs- ...Illd name a fe..111.1- mot the other inclusive. Assuming this to have been the ,
tea, r• la etient the dist,. cm...neer in the hop districts practice, it would not intlueuce the house if that practice I
of Suss• s, oral the inability of the hop-grower, to pay the were arena. The question had rimer, however, sic,betorrent duty. Gene the house, and the house had never, of co ex-
BESIII/ENCE OF FOREIfiNEItS IN ENGLAND. prevail ii derision on the point. No lawyer would till him
Mr. S. woRTLEY 1r.... nai..e that on an early day he that the courts of law considered " not I. es than fourteen
....old raft tb. attention of the home to the modem, of days " be me an anything else than fourteen clear days. Ile
1 coigners is this conotry. and he wished for some infonua- held in his hand two pages of eases which bore out his view
bon as to the eltamelcr 4 w'lne of those Pcnom. and to on the subject. To two of these only would he refer-that
know whether the got. rnment were prelim...l to take ouch of "Chamber+, v. Smith " and that of " Young v. lliggon."
stet..asa..l.• 1a..... .rc to pr..er. PC till' melelies peace in the lie selected thees• two 'trim a list of nineteen 4.r twenty !
coming •.-.ism without disturbing o.ll' relations with foreign C.1.0s in which the decision on this pmnt or law hail been
eon. root. eit•. uniform. In the first ear, •• at least one calendar month "
Mr. 1ia11.11.1 I: (Drill:AN)... inquired of the right hon. had been held to mean not less than one char calendar '
baron, t the 'lonic Ser. tire, a Milt, r any comrannications month, and in the second, "net It .4 than fifteen !
had heals made through the proper channels to foreign days" hail la-en held to no-an not less than fifteen clout I
governm. nts with revert be the • onveniestice which might days. Ile submitted that if the proceedings were void ah I
Sri., trion tart. trelle.of Aireittnem coming into this country Morin, the committee wee at an end and heel not he sworn. I
is their uniforms and side arms during the approaching Ex. Ile concluded by moving that the resoolution for the apisant-
helot ime. ("Oh," and Inighter) Al.'.. whether her Majesty:* relent of a sleet committee, to try the matter of the election
pi.. ait emend taking any steps to prevent foreign inn- fur St. Allvans not losing in conformity with the statute 11
toners es• • g to this es mar) during the approarhing Ex- and 12 Victoria, passed in 1818, was null and void.
halation, loon toth,miiia te(((ther large bodies of their Mr. FOX MAt'LE mid the committee on this question
eountryin n, and making speeeshes ealculats d to excite had not acted without having precedents for the course
anareley and sedition in the kingdom. Of OUT attic., they had taken. In 1815 a petition fur trying the elect'
Sir 0. ORET was not swans of any such communication for• Dartmouth had been presented and a committee lead
having been made to foreign IIOWI.Ts by the government. been appointed exactly under the mme circumstances as the
As regarded the assembling together of large bodies of present one, and no objections had been made. In 1816 the
fur, igners, making political speeches and declamations, he committee for trying the election for Wioan had Men ap-
nosh! only say that her Majesty's government would negli et planted tinder the same cireumetances, and it was remarkable
o 111011 Ingalls Or preventing brew-Ms of. the law ;Ina that in that (nee, as in the present one of St. Albans, Mr.
puce of this country by either foreigners tor any other per- Coppock had been the agent for the defence, and lie bad
it..., (near, hear.) then taken no objection. In ISIS, the committee 6.r trying
241:ISA:sit:ES -11AltItEl. ORGANS AND ADVEIt- the- election for Horsham had ken appointed in the same
TISINO VANS. way, there had been the same agent for the defe•nee, and I
l'ulonel SIIITIIOIII. wished to know from the rigid 110 obje.etion hail lasen taken, nor hail any complaint been
hon. ',amnia the Iliiim• Sectary whether he had into it made. The objection ouaele in the present ea.e..as, that
any orders Ili the rommiaionee of pane to put a stop to Menem clear illy, had not elapsed between the intimation
the ratinual nuisanee of barrel organs-(laughter)-and and the nomination of the emennittre. Notwithstanding
al-n to aleite maid', r nuisani e -lie nmaot rows of five, six, all he (Mr. F. Maul.') hail heard, he was still of the upi-
and smut times .....1-11 ailaertining tans living driven along neat that the committee haul (trash:trued their duty cor-
the most crowded pulnie thoroughfares? (Rear, hear.) wetly mill properly; and. moreover, he hoped he would
Sir li. tilt KY amstereil tli.tt utter the been. gentleman lot be out of place in saving that lie considered this to be
hull put hi...question a few days ago on this subiert, he had a question which should Le decided rather by the good
communicated with the Cllllllnillaiolll n. of polite, and he seen'.' of the house itself than by legal opinion. (Ilear,
found that they were quite nail; to exercise tlu• power' hear.) On the lath of March. previous to four
they he hl by la* for remoting all long anus ulogructious o'clock, the day had keen fixed and settled that the
and impediments in the pulone strelrto. With respect to the general committee should meet on the 25th of alan•h to
barrel .rearm. there W.I. a opeend act applicable to erect name the select committee in the eases of St. Albans
music which gate power to remove the musicians forma...it- and Aylesbury. The matter hail been duly intimated at
able cause suet& as sicker.* in a b 011... Ile undereboal the the Journal-office on the lath, and it had been intimated
hon. gentleman to refer to those bane( organs which were in the house the sane eve •
.. The act of parliament re-
sei large as to la, drawn ley horses, and it was indisputable quireel that motive 'Mould be given in "the votes" fourteen
that they were ealeulati4 hi. en ate alarm -to frighten horses. Jays before the nomination. Now, in the votes delivered
that WIT, rislden or were in reenacts, and so eau... danger- on the 11th of March the precise date of the 10th
sus accidents in the streets, and ter police would hate a of March had been placed, and he eontendial that the
right tee interftsre On application, and he had no doubt they notice had been quite in accordance with the act of
would do their &sty in that matter. Atlverti.ing Vallb parliament. The transmission of the notice to the Jour-
wool., a 1.,, he loslieved. vont.. tinder the police act, althinigh sal-other within the ',nowt time was, he 11001, quite suffi-
there was nOpurtivular CIIIII•C air. Cling theinasard if a nuisance tient. Ile • As quite confident that the, notiees and the
or obstruction ant.. from them, and if aa7 person W.I. Cast, lICIIITC the house' had IWCII 111.011Cfly made, and that
annoyed while pursuing his ordinary avocations, he would the committee was quite legally chosen. Ile would meet
have a right to interkre and appeal to the police. the motion of the hon. and learned member (Mr. Aglionby)
HIGHWAYS DILL. with a direct negative.
Mr. BICE wished to ask the Secretary of the Treasury Mn, II EADLAI thought the matter might he referred
if it was tin• intention of the government to introduce any to a committee to consider what was the best course to
bill this session fur the bette.r management of the highways. adopt.
Mr. I'. LEWIS said that a bill had been prepared on Mr. ARMSTRONG said that the repression in the act
that subject, but he could not at that moment say whether wa•s• nut less than fourteen days, and authorities had been
it would /IC iutroducest this ...ssoiou. citesi that that WAw fourteen clear days. Notice having
ORDNANCE SURVEY. been given on the 11a, and therefore fourteen clear
Lord 11. VANE asked the. ele•rk 4.f the' Ordnance when days notice had not been given.
the ordnance map., on the orate of six Meshes to a mile. for Sir It. INGLIS did not apprehend that the printing of ifse
the North Riding of Yorkshire and the einuitks of Durham votes Was anything. 'the point was the, publication, and he
and Nuerthunsberland, would be completed ? . thought the publication was completed when a St:AI:MUM was
tainiel ANSON said that the survey w -aas Prognngi made in that house' by the chairman of the committee of
but he could nut glee, much hope that the maps in question selection that the. committee Baal been named. It that were
would be ready before some considerable time. MI. mid if the determination of the committee were trans-
IfUSIN ESS OF' TUE 110t'SE. mined to the jountal office the same night, the statute
Mr. 11EYNOLDS, pursuant to notice, aoktal the noble was complied with both in the spirit and the letter.
lord at this head of the government at what period of the Mr. ANSTEF remarked that it was very true that the
present .i. 41.11 he intended to introduce the bin for the act (('aired publication and 4161 not require printin , but
aloaition off minioter money in Ireland. It had hem ad- it ree;uirtel publiteMin with the votes, Mid thus recognised
netted that the nag, if it had to be paid at all, ought to the existing mode of printing and publishing the votes.
CIIIIII• tout of the funds of the Irish Ecclesiastical t'ornmis- Mr. WALPOLE thought that technical objections ought
sew. The money amounted to 141,000 f. a year, out of which not to interfere with the free administration ..f justice, and
his constituents paid 2,0001. a year, and therefore he thin became ten times more strong when the slip was cone-
thought a eutlicient case was made out for the alteration of ' mated by the tribunal. In this case the general cont-
its :i......ment. mittee hid made a slip, which was not absolutely fatal ac-
Lon! J. It USSF.I.L +aid that perhaps it might be corm. cording to the act of parliament and he thought it then
agent t., the house if, instead of merely answering the guts- (Meanly ,
them of the limeo member, he was to state what was •
IllilloitlCC was done to the sitting member or the petitioner.
the course he prolowed to take in regard to the public
• Ilia opinion was that the ni C t should be not less than 14
business; and, in the tour.. of that general statement, hr char -da,... and ' . ' l''' '
supposing there were words in the act that
would answer the question of the hon. gentleman. In the. . . ,'•
exnausteu its power, then no further ceedings could be
first place. it would neesessary to ',reeved that evening takim in respect to tins
Alit....
i i lie thought the toms
with the consideration of the army estimates in committees, mince oughtto t theof tl • hour to be sworn,
come otable the
and thin that the house should sit to-morrow (this day) iu and • n•
Da UK been sworn they would be a select committee
order to rtre Ives the report of the committee of supply. The legally • 'Med to try the eu eriithleictl:e Petition.
government proposed to go on with the committee of AritePil"te'siw words '`nom the
oul.ply eat !Ilemslty. with the anny and the ordnance eeeti- Sir U. Gill-1Y *aid he end not think that was the
mates, to pros isle for the pulelic *Tyne. On Friday his wit
tribunal tor settling a nee point of law. This questitm
right hon. friend the Chaneellor of the Exchequer would a •
1 reckoning fourteen days' notice had come be lore the
make his financial statement and intimate what alterations courts of law, and he believed there had been conflicting
were to be math, in the firemen! arrangement he had already s • • •
ll moils upon it. At the same time they were bound toi
deeeribed. On the same day lie would move, in a tom- decceide the question that had come before them. lie agreed
mitt( of ways and means, • resolution with re- with his hue. and learned friend (Mr.'
Walpole) that the
start to the continuance of the income tax. The ,
party petitioniug the house and asking the house to inter-
debate would la' lasedupon the motion of the pate to prevent the, swearing of the committee had really
right hon. member for Stamfonl : and, if the cetimates suffered 110 wrung ; lie had substantially all that the bill
did not extend too lute on Monday, he proposed to • . •
gave bun 1 he question, therefore, wee, were there distinct
Wks th.• debate on that evening. 'there re.mained only ga .
grounds fur interference. and were they justified in inter-
three male( 11:1). afterwards at the disposal of the govern- leering - Ie his mind then, was some doubt of that, and he
meat bet on, Easter, and they must be, devoted to the titian- should, therefore, nut vote fur the resolution.
vial arrauireeneseds and remaining estimates. In con-
sequence of this he regretted that they would be unable to Mr. AOLIONBY, who rose Lunn' cries of "Withdraw."
at
the with the nest stage of the Ecclesiaotical Titles BiU , said he should not withdraw the motion, as he thought it
at the time lIC had before indicated, and he could not then well to take the decision of the house.
any when he would bring it on. It might, perhaps, be on Mr. HOBHOUSE considered that in all probability the
Friday, the- 2sid of May. Amongst certain measures of final trial of that question would not end in that house, but
which he had given notice of his iuteation to bring forward in one of the law courts in Westminster. He suggested,
this sootier°. was the hill fur the abolition of the office of therefore, that the motion should be withdrawn, and that
Lord Lieutenant in Inland. It appeared that since the an amendment ohould he substituted referriag the question
proposal of last year had lean made theta: had been no ex- to a committee.
presetion of stninger opinion in Ireland than existed last Sir D. DI:NDAS coincided in the opinion that the
year with respect to the continuance of that office,, and he legality of the committee could not be questioned after
should think the general opinion in Ireland was now favour- they were sworn.
able to the continuance of that office at th e present time. '2lie house then divided.
(Hear, hear.) Ili* own opinion of the ads lineages to he For the motion
derived by the empire, and especially by Ira:Ltd, rensaitted Against it 2Ol-125
unaltered ; but seeing the, lung debate that wo alit en.., on The members of the committee were them sworn at the
that measure, and the r.pressurc of other impo.nant truistic table•
business, he would now state that he did nod intend AYLESBURY ELECTION COMMITTEE.
to propose that measure this session. (Cheers.) And now The members of this committee were also sworn.
with reganl to the quotion asked by the hon. memb •r asto PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.
the abolition of ministers' money in Ireland, it had b wit his
intention to introduce a measure during the prewe sent 15i0n......•Mr. R. OSIIOUNE asked at what period the noble
lord at the head of the government would bring forward
and if he should find an opportunity he might do so. .a his ineasur, respecting. parliamentary oaths, to relieve
there were other measures so indispensably necessary' to
propose, that be was not prepared to say decidedly that it mlmadwdl.MVlLlfe' ' "ligm"
At an early day.
would he in his power to introduce any bill on the subjec t
in the present session. Ile would here remark that after TILE KAFFIR WAR.
the Imo., had gone through committee on the Ecclegastical Lord J. RUSSELL said he wished to state, in refereed
Titles Bill, it would be advisable that as little delay as pm- to. notice of a motion given yesterday by the hon. member ibr
sill( should wear in the remaining ekes. ...i, wth Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley), that he should before
PAPAL ENCROACHMENTS. the order of the day himself move that • select committee be
Mr. STANFORD nee to put a question to the noble , appo ;Mad on the subject of our relations with the Kaffir;
lord at the kind of the government-Whether it is the ' and miter trio - in South Africa. (Hear, hear.'
find .e...ention of the goverument, in conformity with the I Sir N. 31 en.ESWORTH asked whether the motion

......matron of the committee that of the decrease of , the house to hirr every expense which justice to the army
411 101 were officers, 25 non-commissioned officers, and care for the welfare of the soldier imperntivelycalled for.
and 288 rank and file, and among the number would Unnecessary expense he would never urge upon the house,
be found one colonel-in-cliief, that of
Pt hOth
Can
- but necessary expenses he was always prepared to defend.
ment On the (beetle of the
late lac of Cain- On all occasions it would he his earivat endeavour to
bridge the comniatce of last year la commended that uphold the honour and the character of that army to which
the colosieley of the GOth ltile • shoall not be tilled up, it was his pride once to have belonged, which he himself
and the government had attended to Oa recommendation. believed to be one of the best armies with which any nation
The itemiser of men proaosed was 93,711, and that force was ever blessed; which, in point of discipline, whetaier in
WOO divided into two parte, namely the troops at home and peace or war, could be metaled by none; and which ho
those abroad. There were at the present time aa,9SO was satisfied, convinced as he also was that justice would
troops serving within these islands, and 39,116 employed in always be done to it by that house, would soon prove, when
the colonies. One great argument in f wear of keeping up the hour of duty came, loyal to the Sovereign and faithful
a large number of troops at all the home stations, was that to the country. (Cheers.)
we might be able to keep up a well regulated system of re- The first vote proposed was for 98,714 men for the land
lief for the troops abroad. That was a prin- forces.
ciple which hail been laid down several years Mr. HUME was gratified not less than the right hon.
ago by his predecessors in office, and by the head gentleman at the economy which had taken place in tho
of the late government, and it was a principle which, in army of late years. The economy had been of the moat
his opinion, had very much tended to reconcile the army practical character, for they found that whle the charges
to service abroad. lle was happy to say that by observing , had decreased, the available force at the diepl of the
that principle, they had been able to reduce the roe- , country had been greatly increased. Ile had gone care-
tine of service to ten years abroad, and live at home, , fully over the returns of all the departments, and he was
I for the inner circle of relief, and to 15 years and 7i at , glad to perceive that in th - system of accounts,
home fur the regiments in India aid the more distant culo- ias to correctness and character, the army was
nice. The number of troops in India was 30,497 ; and, I tar before the ordnance or nary tarry comparison
although this country did not pay for their support, yet al with the navy being, in fact, quite out of the question.
certain number extra was obliged to be kept up IThey had no doubt made considerable progress ; but he was
at home, in order to provide for an efficient i still not satisfied, and he only accepted what had been done
• system of relief. But, in addition to maintaining as a proof of how much more could be accomplished.
an extra number of troops for relief, he held He saw uo reason whatever why the civil organisation of
that it was also the duty of this country to have fur the army should not be still further improved. Ile saw no
exigencies a certain amount of disposable force. They had reason whatever why the ordnance should not be placed, as
seen cases in which tro•tps were required fur a sudden in all other armies, under the commander-in-chief, in order
emergency, and in such a case with no reserve there would that they might thus get rid of the expense of
be great inconvenience and expense in recruiting. Ilesideo, that costly and most ushers establishment in Pall-mall.
without wishing to run a race of military numbers with the He would not place reliance on the evidence for it was in-
nations abroad, he thought it did not become this country, terested, the witnesses being military men, who saw the
with such an extent of wealth to protect, and such vast in- advantage of the country in the increase of their establish-
terenta at stake, to be altogether denuded of army, or meats. The governments successively had always urged
wholly unprepared against sudden assaults or any that relief was wanted in the colonies, as the excuse fur
sudden turn that might take place in the affairs of kcepiug up the numbers of the army, and it seemed as if
foreign countries, (specially since by means of steam they the same, or au increased panther was always to be required
had, been brought so much nearer to our shores. Under all in the colonies. But changes had taken place of late in
these circumstancea he should not propose leo than 98,714 our rnloaial policy which should induce the House of Com-
men, being within a fruition of the number proposed last mono to change the system also, and the government had
year. Ile now came to the sum required for the mainta admitted that the colonies should pay. ROW part of the et-
name of the army, but before hi, aid so. be wished to penditurc fur military supplies. Fonuerly. in colonies
call the attention of the commiteet more especially of with a mixed population, as in the. West India Islands, resi-
those members of it who had been on the committee of last dente was nut safe without a stationary military force, if
year, to the statement he should think it his duty. to make only us police protection, but within the last few years her
before entering into the vote for laud forces. Ills wish was to Majesty's stove ,sit hail determined, that whenever our
state what reduction had been made in the charge for the calonists adopted the institutions of this country, and had
army in consequence: of the evidence taken before the the management of their own affairs, they were to
committee up stairs. In the first place, it w••u d lie in the be made responsible fur the expense of maintaining their
recollection of the committee, that last year it was proposed military defence, mud Earl Grey had said that they must bo
to do away with the system of double battalions. To a prepared to do so. If that were so, why delay placing
very great extent that had been accumpliahed, and in con- them in the situation that would relieve this country of a
sequence of the report of the committee the depot bath:lion large portion of its expeuditure ? The number wanted by
at Parkhurst hail been suppressed. The result of inquiry the right hon. gentleman for the colonies was 39,000, and
had been that depot battalions might be dispensed with, more for the army, and adding the expense of the ordnance,
and the effect was a *acing in the pnwent estintatea of engineers, and sappers and miner*, the aggregate would ha
2,3991. a year. The next item of saving was :0001. a year 42,000 or 43,000, exclusive of 25,1100 mom in India. The
which had beep drawn by the late adjutant-general, but question was, haul the country arrived ut a paint when they
which was to be discontinued to his successor the moment might demand a reduction in this Large establishment, and
lie got a regiment. Since the last estimates were whether the principle laid down by Earl Grey was to ho
voted there had been a change in the Quarter- acted upon. If 39,000 men were now required, it was a
master-General's department, which lie could not mention greater number than 111011 to be wanted, and more than
without a passing tribute to the zeal and ability a ith which were required, although nicessary wheat troops weir wanted
that department had been conducted by the aged veteran who to cos rce or keep down our colonies, u,r
to keep out Co-
had lately filled the office. By his death the public hail reign aggnasion. At this, time, when thc reduction
lost an excellent and exemplary servant. (Hear, hear.) of the national expenditure was looked forward
In supplying his place, however, the question of econinny to, the colonies were among the sources which should be
; haul been considered, and in the new arrangements considered as aids to such reduction. The Australian cut-
ler the office there would be a saving of 789/. In the lonic* haul some 0,000 troops, and Earl Grey hail given no-
army medical departmeut also, Sir J. al•Grigor had retired the he should withdraw them. If that were so, why not a
at the advanced age of 89, and a saving was proposed in reduction in thee estimate id the total number out there
his department of 1,0851. a year. The medical staf, ge- Then there were the Canadas and North America. Tho
ncrally, had been reduced 1,6001. a year. With respect to government had given wsponsible government to Canada,
, the stall' in Canada the comntatee had gum, minutely into and what was the use of keeping 8,000 or 9,000 troops
• the details, and they bad lien, in consequence, able to effect there, or even imini nun. Why, if they were withdrawn
i a reduction there of four °divers, and a saving of I,OIIW. a directly the inhabitants would probably not raise 1,000 men•
• year. The deputy judge aclvoeate in Ireland would be Ile put it to the house whether in such colonits as these wo
• discontinued, so that in all the saying resulting from the ought to pay for troops as polka,. If they wanted police,
i laboura of the committee would be B,oooa a year. Having we ought not to be at the C‘ileiths; of maintaining the force
, stated so much, he would now make a few observations on when no longer wanted. Ile asked why Earl Grey and the
vote No. 2, in the estimates. The sum naked last year was government, after the declarations he haul mentioned, did not
3,062,430!., the sum he asked this year was 3,521,009/., mak- put them in force us reganbal Canada and Nova Scotia,
. ing a decrease in the charge for land forces id 41,361/. withdraw the troops, and leave them to tiud lilt theniselvis
. The privilege of the soldier who supplied himself with his whatever was requisite. Ile should be glad to hear any
own lodgings was the next point in the estimates; and lie plausible' teas= to the contrary. The hon. gentleman here
, believed that 2d, a day would he found adequate fur all the quoted statistics of the number of troops voted ; without
purposes intended. The next point was with reganl to the going back t•• 1835 as a precedent, but taking the average
. schools. Ile was happy to say that the schools were flou of three years, 1831, ltata, and 1136, and by eompacing
wilting to an immense extent, and that they had been in- them with the present estimutee, he stated the
) creasing and growing most prosperously during the last five result to be that we voted 151,000 in place
c years. There were at present 34 trained in:eaters and seven of 121,000 in round numbers. He should now
• regimental schoolmasters. He was happy to say that the appeal to the house to slew their desire fur practical reduce-
. thirst for instruction amongst the soldiers was now very tion and conclude Its mussing the reduction of the vote for
, great. lie was also happy to state that the increase of sub- 98,711 men by 5,000 men, who should be bumf:di:stela, with-
-1 scribers to the libraries was considerable •, and he hopevl drawn tram the colonies.
i the house would encourage this feeling. Ile now The question and amendment were put from the chair.
' came to the stuff, and he was happy to state, Mr. W. WILLIAMS, in supporting the ametlment,
, that the reduction in that vote amounted within a coudentind the financial conduct of the government as
having been more extravagant in every brunch of the
• few pounds to 4,0001. With respect to the Royal Mili-
public. sera ice than any of their predecessars. lie then
tan Asylum and Hibernian Schad, there was also ado- .
crease. There was a decrease also in the volitutarlea, entered inhi details to show the variation's and increasis in
, owing, doubtless, to the eiremnstance that that force was the expenditure of all the military departments since 18'29,
in u state of high order and discipline. Than, Passing and ini.laditig the government of the Duke of Wellington.
•
c over the uon-effective force, the next vote was the unny unless the right how gentleman (Mr. V. Mauls) could show
c pay and general officers, whirl' amounted to 58,0001., upon that there was cannething in the state of the country which
which there was a wiring of 6,000/. Eight of these general required sui.ll a large force he (Mr. Williants) dill lad thiuk
re only the house would be justified iu tating the nuinher of men officers had died, and the officers now constituted we
. 119 in number. Ile muse came tel the half-pay of the military which he (Mr. F. al,,uh.) had proposed. He (Mr. Wil-
e allowances, which showed a reduction of 9,0001. Ile hum% must give the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
believe/) that 237 officers had died or been relieved F.
aule) credit for the clear and intelligible
• from this list. In the matter of for: hat liair-9"Y manner hi which his estimate's were usually driewn
• there would be a difference this year of 3,2071. In the up, but he should like very murk that he (Mr. F.
t widows' pension list the elveratac was 3,807/. In Chelsea alaule) would point out what necasaity
begged the house existed for dais in-
, and Kilmainham hospitals the ulcers ass, would be 3114/. creaw of force. lle (Mr. Williams)
to observe that in the year 1839 this country wail in a poi-
• He now came to the out-pensioners of the army, in which
tion of considerable difficulty. Thing's were not at call very
there was a decrease of 677/. Me last was a vote fire
. superannuated allowances, and that showed a total de- tranquil at ',mite, the rebellion in (a,,,,a, ,0,,,,,, warmly ee-
prewsst, the difficulties existing with the United States '
crease of 3,0001. The. effective and non-effective service
year, natant to the bounthuy question were not obviated,
showed a total of—last year, 6,019,3971.; this
and our relations with France were not on the must
; 5,925,945/. ; exhibiting it decrease of 93,4421. Ile was
satiafactory footing. Taking :ill thew circumstances bate-
; happy to state; that, with a very much increased force in
• this country, and taking the whole military and naval timer, that peried had been OHO of
with the
consider
and if in such a perioil government could doe
• force into account, the result was, that in Inc year tailable difficulty i
force he had mentiontal, he did not see how the Secretary
the charge was smaller than it had been in 1831. In 1830
at War seas justitiesl in asking for such is large nundui•r of
• the charge for the artily and militia was 6,120313 a ; in
• 1851 it was 6,031,6131., showing a decretoe of 92.00111. men. l'h,, liollto lord at the head of the goo:nomad (Lord
J. Hassell) had, in former days, entertained a very different
' On the other hand, the gross number of men in 11335 was
Ile (alr. Williams) would read a taw lines which incurred
81,271, while in 18.11 the gross number was 98,711, lx.ing notion as to the military reree niipp.,,el in 0,,,, c„,untry.
an increase of 17,413 ; while at the wane. time they pus-
in the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell) "Essay on the Condi-
. sewed, at the Kerne of the country, if occasion should
tution." The words were these : •• Where it is urged that
arise, 29,000 and upwards, veteran soldiers, ready to come
it is nereasary to assimilate our peace establishment t•• that
forward whenever the call of duty should be made upon
them. It was mast gratifying to him to have thus to show, a cOlailliotal powers, and that a large army se' rendered
by due economy iu all the branches of the service, a de- necescary by the increase of the population, then it is tines
crease un the charge for the tinny and militia Of 92,0001. ; for the people to arouae themselves and shake off, before it
while, at the same time, showing un increase in the total be too late, the burden of a military government."
. force of 17,113
.roen, with the additional advantage of (Hear, hear!) These wools bad lawn written by the
urltauir•ing a eoll'aderahle I.°Y of "idrldierw lie barn- 'd noble lord (Lord J. Itusaell) in the year 182.3. Now
the house would now indulge him while
.reading what had brio the military force at that time? The army
a short general statement in respect to the re- had then numbered 41,000 men, so that the number milted
sults of the administration of the affairs of the this year exceeded by 10,000 that of the year 1823, when
army by the present government, from 47-8 t•• 01-2. the noble lord (Lord J. ltusaell) had put these opiaiona on
Ile was personally. hil far fortunate in making this state- paper. Ile (ale. Williams) wished the noble long would
ment that the period which he had to review dated front carry uut those Principles, and take an example from the
the year when he first entered upon his present office. It time governments which had pnerAed the present ad-
appeared that the force in India was HOW Precisely the ministration. (Hear, hear.) Al the eircumaances of the
same aa it was in 1847-8. The numbers had dithered in the country favoured the reduction of our military force. The
railroads which 110 V, existed enabled the authorities to con
interim; but this was in toll-sSquenee of a bad system
centrate with ease the military at any given point, and of
having prevailed of sending home regiments for which sub- •
course did away with the supposed necessity which existed
stitutes had almost inunediately after to Ile provided. In
1847-8 we had a total army, including the three formerly to maintain mach a lame military force one thu
in India, of 1014,398 men. The force which he country. Ile (Mr. Williams) was sorry that his hon. friend
now naked to be voted was 118,711 men • showing the member for Nlontruse (Mr. Hume) had mot proposial a
a decrease, since the present government entered office, of littleil larger reduction than a,OOO men. (Strong ex nee-
-10,000 men. In the effective charge of the army, on the alone of iinpatience ; in the midst of which the hon.i
m ern-
whole period, there was a decreaw of 30t4,38•51. In the her sat down, by intimating that he begged to second the
proposal of his hon. friend, Mr. Hume.)
non
muted charge, the decrease, on the whole period,
amounted to 122,9'18/. The decrease altogether, therefore,
was a decrease of 431,4331. Were he to state the totally Sir W. MOLESWORTII, who was heard with
new charges added in the five years, the comparison might great ;impatience, said he would confine himself to
be swelled to a still greater extent, and would appear still the propowd by his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) to redeem
more favourable to the recent administration. But he would the military ffirce of the (samara by 6,000 men. In the
nut enter into details. lie thought he had already
quite sufficient to show that wherever economy had been
stated year 1,1,34 a committee had been appointed to inquin, into
the colonial military expenditure. That eminence had
(Hear, hear.) Ile haul 110 W tii refer to the discipline of the
practicable economy had been practised by the government. rejx,rted that the. greatest economy ought to be exercised in
army, and to call atti ntiou to the returns which had been the military expenditure of our colonies. At that peeled
made in respect to punishments. He was happy to say that the number of men maintained in the North American
it had deceased. Ile was still more happy to Colonies had been 5,309, and the military expenditure had
state—whatever the cause, whether or not from the cyst
been 337,000/. Since that period there had been an increase
in the military force of our North American colonies, and
now resortualto of promotiug education and supplying the hope
of rewards tor good condaet say ,r of corporal punish- also an increase in the expenditure. lit 1)446-7 the
meat had steadily, he might say, rapidly, decreased (blear, and the expenditure had amounted to 645,00ef. Last year
number of niilitary in these colonies had been 9,743,
hear.) In 1818 such Vast, of punishment amounted in expenditure haul been nearly
1841-7 tame the year 1835 the increase of
number to 320. In 1819 they were 470. In 18:10, 27 regi- the vane a 4 in ' • . •
the number of men and the cape , .
ments excepted, as to w hid, there were no returns, there airth Amencan colonies had been 4,374, and
had been truly 211 cases, and assuming the proportion in of expenditu . , .
re 300 000/ If they came to the standanl of
1835, they would consequently make a reduction of the
men iu our is•
these 27 regiments to be the sumo as iu other regiments, the
men in the North American colonies to the extent of about
4,500, and a reduction m the expenditure of 300,000/. This
total number of eases could not exceed 300. Olear,
increase in the military expenditure of the Canada's had
hear) This was a most satisfactory result; and afforded
been occasioned by the rebellion,which had cost this country
proof that while it haul been expedient to retain
the power of iufficting this puuishment, the necessity
of applying it might gradually be done away
Mr. ME—Five millions.
with, two millions of
m II Utu money. • •
The last point to which he hail to direct attention Was with
regard to mortality in the army. The tables of mortality Sir W. NIOLESWORTH—IIis hon. friend (Mr. Hume)
showed a considerable decrease in the last year. During said five millions. (Hear, hear.) They ought to recollect
the period when that fatal disease, cholera, proved a scourge that the Canada., were now in a (Efferent position front
to all the civilians, both white and black, in Jamaica, the what they had been when the increase had taken place.
, military owing to the precautions taken, and chiefly, in They had now obtained the uncontrolled management of
.
consequence of their barracks having been built high up their own affairs; and he (Sir W. Molesworth) must say
in the hills, had almost entirely cacaped. Generally, he that the policy latterly pursued towards these colonies had
had to state, as respected Jamaica, that while, in the been most wise and judicious, and he (Sir W. Molesworth)
twenty years previous to 1836, when sanitary arrangements approved of the surrendering to these colonies the manage-
first began to be made, the mortality amounted to 128 ment of the clergy reserves. He maintained, however,
' per thousand, the last returns showed that it was sow only that this country should not maintain troops in Canada for
11 per thousand. The mortality in some places, as the merely local purposes, especially as they haul now the manage.
East Indies and elsewhere, under eirceintstauccs of climate modal their eau:affairs. (Hear, hear) In the military es-
peculiarly unfavourable to Europeans, had undoubtedly en- penditure of the colonies of North America there was great
lanced the tables ; but, on the whole, he might fairly say room for reduction ; and if we were to base a repeal of
that the mortality among British troops abroad was not obnoxious taxes, there should be every pofflablc reduction in
meter than those among troops at home. (Hear, hear.) our military expenditure; for lee (Sir W. Molesworth)
He had now goue through the statement which he had had thought that any considerable reduction of our expenditure
to make to the committee. He trusted he had shown that could only be made in our military establishments, and
the condition of the British army, at this moment, was especially thaw connected with the colonies. (The hon.
a condition of which the country had reason to he proud. member was obliged to resume his seat amid loud cries of
(Hear, hear.) He trusted he had shown that the finances " Divide, divide." The noise which prevailed in the how"
of the army had been managed with the utmost economy, during his observations rendered some of them quite in-
*consistent with the utaintenance.of the dignity of the coun- audible.)
try, and a proper regard to the wants and requirements of Lord J. RUSSELL—In reference to what bas been said
1
the troops. (Hear, hear.) He was, at least, certain that by the hon. baronet (Sir W. Molesworth),
s• cogra4T(t!lpj
in framing these estimates he had done his utmost to reduce the actual number of men in our North kik' Helm .lehs'ec. \
every item to the lowest posaffilc amount. At the same including Newfoundland and Nona Scotia. is SAM rear! 1-4
Mile it should be understood that he had not scrupled to ask hear.) The bun. baronet proposes to redist the tweet net ht 14
.;.. ..F:.../.i...,;+.,.* ;3t
-.. • t.„ --.4.A...3 ,•.. 43
- ‘... •.2.:_s.i.
.4.&4,

it was of smaller proportions. (Hear, hear.) se qus
seemed to him to be whether they were to have a great
isystem of centralised government, or whether they would
retain their local institutions. (Hear, hear.).
Mr. F. MAULE, who rose amidst loud enc. of spoke,"
said that he wished to explain what he really had said.
He stated distinetiv that what he hail written to Dublin WILA
that no vacancy in Kilmuinhaa Hospital was to In• filled
up without communication a ith him. Communication
had been hail with him with regard to two vacancies, 'tad,
thinking that course desirable, he ordered them to be filled
up at once.
Alter a few words from Mr. W. Mites,
The house divided, when there appeared—
For Dunne's ainendnient 16.5
Against it 137-32
On the gallery being re-opened,
Mr. ACME was found suggesting to the government
that they should withdraw the estimates until the
CiAt statement had been made. The greatest anxiety
existed on the subject throughout the country, and
lie hoped the house would concur with him in think-
ins that no more supplies should he voted until the
statement had been mule. The financial statement must
have been prepared ; it could not be that the government
Iced not mule up their minds; as to what they would do,
and why, then, should there be an hour's delay in intro-
ducing their scheme? They had now had two or three
weeks for consideration. He might be told that the
Mutiny Bill would expire on the sth of April. There
would, he laeliertal, lie uu objection to the renewal of that
measure. Ile would now mote that the house should not
go into committee of supply until the financial statement
had been made.
The SPEAKER said the lion. member could not make
that motion, as the house had decided that the question,
that he should leave the chair, should stand part of the
question.
Lord .1. RUSSELL was very sorry that there had been
any misunderstanding with the hon. gentleman on thin
subject ; but he had always con:iilenal it to lie understood
that the estimate were to be taken immediately alter the
conclusion of the late debate. If the budget were intro-
duced then, his right 1 . friend would have to enter into
a considerable amount of explanation, a debate would arise,
and the government would he precluded from proceeding
with what was most imporuint, the army estimates.
Mr. lICM E said if the government would bring forward
the statement on Monday, he would withdraw his opposi-
tion.
Cot stwritour rose to introduce an amendment, when
The SPEAKER reminded the hon. and gallant member
that the house hail decided that the words, "that I now
leave the chair," should stand part of the question.
Colonel SIBTHORP then proceeded to complain of the
recent addition of .iOOl. a year to the salary of the Chairman
of the Board of Inland Revenue. lie admitted that the
gentleman in whose favour this addition was made was a
very able as well as an old public officer. But how was the
thing dune ? Why by a treasury minute—a secret tootle
of taking mouey out of the pu.eketa of the people. lie
protested against such a nefarious mode of giving away
LON. a year belonging to the people. The treasury minute
was sinister and witlerhauil, and he regretted to have to
complain of such a dirty transaction on the part of his right
hon. relative. (Laughter.) Ile hoped the day was nut far
distant when such a government or the present one, whose
only of was to keep their seats with the aid of a mis-
cellaneous body of supporter,, would no longer sit on the
Treasury benches. where they so seldom practised what they
had preached.
The CIIANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER said he
felt very much obliged to his hon. and gallant relative..
(Laughter.) Ile must in the first place thank hint for the
cairn...ions which he had used in reference to himself—
(laughter)—and still niure must he thank him for the testi-
mony he had bonits to the merits of au individual who... con-
duct was known to the Immo, (Hear.) Whatever might
be his hon. and gallant friend's opinion of the government,
lie was glad that he sure a lows. to the merits of Mr. John
Wood, fir a more deserving officer did not live. (Hear.)
lie was AIM, glad that an opportunity was given to him
of explaining what the whole arrangement really was. It
was not fair to single out this particular measure as a pro-
per One for et moire without taking into account the fact
that it had been deferred. until the execution of the object
in the aecumplialuitent of width Mr. John Wood Lore so
large a part, and he a ould :old that without that gentleman's
assistance such a large saviug of expense could not have
been effected. The house was aware that many years ago
the boards of Aatnps and taxes were consolidated, and a
considerable reduction of expense was secured. Three or
four years ago he himself corniest into execution a fur-
ther con.didatiou of the board of stamps and taxes with
the board of excise, the three now forming the pre-
sent board of inland revenue, and a still further
saving was thus effected in the public expenditure.
Hail it not been for the exertions of Mr. Wood, the con-
solidation could not have taken place. The result of his
exertion had been the consolidation of three departments ;
the reduction of 2,000 officers, and a saving to the country
of a quarter of a million. The last consolidation effected
throh the co-operatiou of Mr. Wood was that of
the Excise with the Board of Wand Revenue, by
means of which twenty-nine superior officers were re-
duc...d, with a saving to the country of 22,990/. a year.
It was fair, however, that the of icer+ who remained
should be remunerated fir the extra labour, and he
had made allowancee, to the amount of 1,9001. a year. At
the same time he had proposed to make au allowance tol
Mr. Wood, but that gentleman declined, until the alters
-
t* had had tune to work and a saving was proved to
have been made. Three years had now elapsed, and the
waving having been clearly established, it wan only fair that
that gentleman should have his reward.
Mr. WAKLEY said that the announcement of an early
budget had been received with the greatest satisfaction by
the public, but unfortunately the budget when produced
was fur from satisfactory. 'I hat being the ruse, surely the
reasons for expediting the second budget were much more
Istringent, the more especially as trade was completely
stopped in many branches, in consequence of the uncer-
tainty as to duties. lie trusted, therefore, that the right
Lou. gentleman would fix Monday next for his financial
statements, in which ease lie (Mr. Wakley) would recom-
mend his hon. friend to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. BROTHERION bore testimony to Mr. Wood's high
efficiency in his office.
Sir DE L. EVANS said that he hoped the right hon.
gentleman would fix Monday for the budget, if' not he (Sir
De L. Evans) would support the amendment.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no division
took place. On our return we found
Mr. DISRAELI addressing the house. Ile denied that
there was any undergautling as to the financial statement
lbeing made on Monday. Under all the circumstances he
did not think it fair to pin the government to that day.
Mr. 111.:ME could only say that his own impression, and
that of many of his friends, had been that Monday was to
Ile the day, but es it appeared they were mistaken he was
willing to withdraw hon motion. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was withdrawn, and the house went into
Committee of Supply.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. F. MAULE said it was now his duty, for the fifth
time, to ask the house for that portion of the supplies of the
year which was to be expended on the army. Its was
aware that in former times there had been considerable
constitutional jealousy on the part of the house with re-
tentive to the maintenance or increase of our stand-
ing army. But whatever that jealousy might have
tA,e/1, it had of late years been superseded by a
' feeling of national pride, in the services, conduct,
and discipline of the army of this great country.
Ile had no wish to disparage the troops of other
countries, or unduly to exalt our own, but be would make
bold to any that there was no army in the world more re-
, markable for discipline, inure patient under privation, mare
gallant in the assault, or more steady midi.: lire than the
British army. (('heers.) There might be difference: of
opinion as to the number of troops to be maintained, but
there WAS no gentleman in the house, however economical
lie might be, or however anxious to reduce those numbers,
who could bring forward or substantiate a single charge of
bad discipline ; or of failure by our soldiers, in soy point
of their duty. With respect to the strength of the arms it
had always been the object of government tokeep that strength
at the lowest possible point consistent with the exigences
of the country, but on this occasion the government found
that, consistently with the necessities of the country, they
could not propose a less number of troops than that which
had been granted in the year just pas.acd. lie should,
therefore, propose to the house to vote 98,711 men, being
within 414 of the number proposed last year. Last year
there had been a reduction to a certain extent, but then he
was told that it was confined to the men in the ranks, and
that he had not taken care to make a proportionate reduc-
tion amongst the officers. This year he might state for the