The Express.
London, England, 1848-06-21 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 21, 1818.

depend their istemotte." (Cries of " Read on.") Of oourse you are to make the suffrage more general—if yon
I do not any that which has been stated over and over are to make it universal, Ido nut see that havino universal
attain, that I expressed ray belief them the country, namely, suffrage you could well act upon the plan proposed by the
middle and working Masan, were not in favour of the bon, gentlemen, by keeping up the present cities, and all
people's charter, or the plan ef the hon. member for Mont- but the smaller boroughs of the country; I do not see that
rose; but that declaration has been used so it it were a you could well avoid that division into squat districts and
declaration against all reform ; whereas I went on to say, into equal portions, which it is the proposal of the advocate.
after haring excluded these specific measures, that the people of the charter to introduce. (Hear.) If lam asked
desired a gradual progress in reform, and in using that term whether a divisiou into equal districts, and universal suf-
-1 excluded no species bf reform, neither parliamentary nor (rage to every male terson of full age, would give a better
fiscal, nor any other kind of reform which it might be useful representative of the people at large than the present system
to adopt. But so great has been the misund, emending or does, and would be more conducive to the interests of the
/misconstruction of what I said, that at the Marylebone Meet. people, I must deny that such would be the result. You
ing the hon. member for Montrose moved a resolution, would thereby have a great number of representatives for
which began thus; "That the prime minister, having stated the large town. •' some 60 representatives for this metro-
his opinion that the people require no extensive measures of polis ; some 10 or 20 for other large towns; each
political and Meal reform, it Vi hereby resolved," and so on. representative imbued with the spirit and the ex-
The hon. gentleman, having heard what I said, and accu- cited feelings of the populations of these towns.
cutely knowing what I said, really should have taken more You would not have the feelings of the smaller
pains. When that resolution was put into his hand, he boroughs and middle-sized towns represented • you would
should have " This is a resolution contrary to the fact ; have representatives of the agricultural classes of totally
I know it to be so (hear, hear) ; it is impossible fur me to a different character, firmly attached to existing ineti-
tutione, but unwilling to adopt the measures of reform
move it as it stands."
Mr. HUME.-1 can only say, it is consistent with the which this house and others formed under the Reform Act,
fact, to my knowledge. (" Order, order.")
aye been willing to adopt. I fear that from a represents-
Lord .1. BUSSELL.—Now, there is another eircums' once lion so composed, totally differing in their political views—
which has attended many of the se meetings for reform. one too much influenced with views of extensive amelions
They have been meetings convened and aseombled with a tion • the other, adverse to progress and improvements--you
view of proposing and supporting the four points contained would have a collision sad a contest which would be denier-
in this resolution which the hon. gentleman has moved ous in its operation, and, above MI, the parliament so mai-
toolay, and to which he has now added a fifth posed would not fairly represent the county which it would
and with the view of tending petitions to this effect to represent. As far as his arithmetic went the
house in Rupp in of this resolution. But when the matter hon. gentleman the member for Montrose was right,
came to a discussion it has repeatedly happened either that but no further ;he said that a nof people, in some in-
some chartist has risen and moved an amendment, that etanne, had no greater representation than a few hundred.
every persgo of full age and unconvicted of any crime ought His arithmetic woo perfectly clear; but when you examine
to have a Min, and that that resolution has been carried, or the operation and the reason of these differences you will
else that, such a resolution being proposed, inch a division find that this representation, on the whole, is better from
in the meeting took place that the reporters, who generally your having a large variety of that kind than if you had one
attend accurate ly to these twitters, have been unable to state sole kind of representation, and that the representation of
the result of the meeting. I ray, therefore, with regard to numbers. When we were discussing the Reform Bid,
this movement, that, in the first place, it has been in a great a gentleman, whose loss we had afterwards to de-
degree founded upon misrepresentation of what I said in my plore, because he gave promise of great talent.. in
place in parliament ; and, in the nest place, that it is not to political lite. though his political views totally differed from
be considered at all as a movement in support of the hon. mine—l mean Mr. Praed, who wished to give two mem-
gentleman the member for Montrose—whether we take bees to the boroughs in schedule B—men of great science,
Leeds, or Birmingham, or Marylebone, as I think, or several he thought, and men of great talent and information would
other of the great cities. It is to be regarded rather be sent by the small boroughs, though not person' of pro-
as a movement in which there was a division of opi..iun, party in the country, such as those who were likely to be
in which the chartists very often had the majority ; and aat to parliament by a division of the country, and not be-
where they had the majority the meetings cannot be cons ing persons possessed of those stirring habits such as those who
sidered as favourable to the plan of the hon. gentleman. The were likely to be sent by great towns. The right hon. bart.,
hon. gentleman, to my great satisfaction, began his speech the member for Tamworth, made a similar proposition. The
by declaring that the plan of reform which I had the honour noble lord, after quoting a few observations which the right
to propose in 1831, and which was carried into effect by pie. hon. baronet made in support of these views on the occasion
Hameln in 1832, had bee n mainly instrumental in preserv- of his proposing a jory bill, proceeded by saying, I think
ing the pesos of the country during the preant year. I that these arguments were foudled on sound and just views
accept that testimony as a testimony that that plan of reform of policy, but I conceive that in giving 40 members to ache-
has been useful in averting discontent, preserving tranquil- dule A, and 60 members to other small boroughs, that we
lity, and in bringing about other useful measures. (Hear.) were providing sufficiently fur that class of representatives,
The hon. gentleman, and, end, afterwards said, thst if the which has in it not only men of commercial and agricultural
people, accort'ing to their present rights of election, chose knowledge, and men of every kind of information, but which
those who would filly represent them, if they attended to has in it men who have studied the constitution of the coun-
their awn interests as they ought, they had the means try—men in active and men not in active life, whose
of carrying into effect measures conducive to the intelligence fits them to bo representatives, but whose
interests of the community. If that be so, it must habits do not qualify them for county represen-
make the house pause as to the necessity for any tation, or for the representation of such places
government measure of reform to enable the people to as Manchester and Birmingham. If this is the case, and if
find a fair representation in this house. Because, by the lam at all right in that view, it disposes very much of the
boo. gentleman's own statement, it is only fromtheir mistake whole of the arguments that have been put forth, that a
of their true interests that the present tonne does not fairly great inequality exists, that a small place returns as many
represent them, and that they have the opportunity at a members as a large place, that there are a thousand voters
general election of being fairly represented. (Hear, hear.) in one place, while there are only 300 voters in another
The electors, indeed, might reply to the hon. gentleinon place. If I am right in saying that these members ought
that they had the power, but did not choose to use not to constitute the main basis of the constitution, that we
it in the manner he recommended, fur that they should rather hare the House of Commons like the country
had a better view of thin true interests than he himself itself, composed of various professions and various occupa-
had—(hear, hear) —and that they had chosen their present lions; if lam right in that, then the whole of the arguments
repeesentatine, thinking that their views were the sound against the present eystem founded on the disparity of the
views according to their own notions of public policy, and numbers of electois tenet once totke ground. The hon gentle,
not the views which the honourable gentleman enter- man doesnot get rid of disparity ; like the rest of his proposi-
Mined. For, although he may comend for any Moos he leans it vague and undefined. Then what would bo the
particular right of suffrage, he cannot contend, what- ease if we were to adopt his resolution He says that he
ever right he may establish, that the people are to adopt will leave the existing boroughs, with the exception of small
all his notions, and that they are not fairly represented if the ones; he would throw Horsham with three or four other
representatives do not coincide with his views and opini,no towns into the county of Kent; but would be leave such
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman began by a declaration places as Canterbury, Guildford—such towns as Norwich
that every man who was a contr butor to the taxes in any and Ipswich, in their present situation i If he did he would
way should have a share in the representation, and that rot have equality of numben; and l say, how would those
every man of full age who coot, ibuted in any way to the who ask for reform be a bit better satisfied than they are at
taxes had positively a right to vote. Why, sir, if this pro- present if they find that still there would be 20,000 electors
position were true there would be an end of all dimere about in one place and only 300 in another? They would then
the matter—an end of the hon. gentleman's propositions, his say, Let us have a just and effectual reform instead of a mere
limitation., his restrictions, his qualifications—and we should mockery of reform which you have
wis given
four
a sett s. The hlement
on.
have nothirg to do but pass an act of parliament acknow- gentleman, at the end of his speech, hed
ledging that right, and admitting all to vote. But the hon. of this question very much in the same language for which I
gentleman in his plan does not carry his proposition into have been reproached with having used on former occesione.
effect. (Hear.) His remedy is to extend the franchise so as to Ido not know how he can haves settlement of the question,
include "all householders," the word "all " having been left for the advocates of the charter, who are more numerous
out by mistake; and from his explanation he appears to intend then his adherents, would still have their grounds of
the word word " householders" to include persons haying a fixed plaint. They ask for a vote for every male adult, which the
residence, and who may be lodgers in the house, but, as I hon. gentleman does not allow, and for equal disoicts, which
understand, who must claim to be rated, and must be actu. ha dots not pretend to establish. I will not argue at any
ally rated, and placed on the rate-book for the relief of the length on the coestion of vote by ballot, for I believe that
peon There is a restriction, a qualification, a condition, under th_t system there would be means of discovering how
which, if she hon. gentleman is right in his former propesi• an elector voted, as well as now. Among the various meet-
tion, you have not the smallest title to impose. (Hear, ings lately held, there was one held in the north, at which a
hear ) Here is a man of full age, belonging to the parish cf gentleman from America stated that he was frequently able
Westminster ; he; claims his right to vote. Are you to say in the United States to tell how an elector voted. Ballot
that he is not registered, and his name is not on the rates in itself was not security, and it would be precisely the same
book, and therefore he cannot be admitted? " Why," he in England. Though the Chamber of Deputies in France
says, " I have an indefeasible, a constitutional right, as being were elected by ballot, it was no security against revolution.
a man 21 years of age; and it is impassible for you to deny With regard to the other proposition, that the duration of
that right, or set aside or evade my claim to vote by parliament shi old not exceed three years, if I agreed with
any pretence of your qualifications about rate-hook:, the hon. member for Surrey in thinking that we should
and registration, and conditions of lodging, and so appear more often before our constituencies, I should hold
forth." (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman by that that, instead of saying with him that it was a
qualification destroys his own proposition. I will confess matter of no inditterence whether we should have
that the boo. gentleman quoted some sentences ot mine annual or triennial parliaments, I should say that annual
in bringing in the Reform Bill in 1831, which, I must admit, parliaments were to be preferred. What you want is not
were somewhat loosely. quoted. They cou.d not have been the power of dismissing members when they ill behave
aoplied as the foundation of the measure I proposed ; but at themselves, as he supposes ; fur Burke was rejected at Brist-
liest I went on to state exactly what the measure was. I did tot, not for ill behaving himself, but for supporting civil and
not leave any doubt about it, and every one can junta what religious liberty ; it is not a frequent change in represents-
the proposition NM which I wished to see parliament adopt. tion that you ought to have in view, but you ought to have
The hon. gentleman's proposition is of a very diffe.ent rim in view the maintenance of lull confidence between repro-
titre ;itis of a very vague and indefinite character. (Hear sentatives and their constituents, and some kind of stability ,
'When the hon. gentleman says that all householders and in the policy of the country. (Cheers.) If you had trim-
lodgers who claim to be rated are to vote, I really do not nial porliaments the whole constituti .n would be unsettled,
understand how large a part of the working classes this will you would just give time enough to the people to consider I
clude. Many sons It with their fathers, or forming that they should make a change, while an annual election,
port of a family, might or might not form part of the coo- either in September or October, would be a sort of renewal of
stituent body under this proposition. He nays there are six tie trusts which they would be ready and willing to make.
millions of persons of full age who ought to vote, and that I therefore think, if we are to have any
.change, that annual
only one million or less are included in the present repre- parliaments would be better than triennial parliaments, and
sentation. But 1..
every imagine, if his proposition were that triennial parliaments is the worst proposition of all.
carried out, and every man had a right to vote, (Hear, hear.) I once gave an opinion in favour of five years;
without being registered sod rated, you would find still but lam satisfied with the present duration of parliaments,
some two or thre mlions at least excluded from the right and certainly I shall not give my vote for an alteration of the
of voting, who weldoud not come under the definition the hon. Period. I think I see that there is a very close correspond-
gentleman has made. What, then, becomes of his assertion, mice and communication between members and their consti-
that you have disqualified those who have the right of voting tuents—(laughter)—and even though members may expect
and that it is beyond the power of parliament to exclude a tenure ef their seats for anyears, Ido find that the opinion
those who have that constitutional right ? (Hear.) I differ of the constituencies has a great influence on the conduct of
entirely from the hon. gentleman as to the foundation of his representatives. (Hear, hear.) But I would beg to put
proposed representation. In my opinion, that which the this question which the bon. gentleman has raised to another I
people have the right to, not only every man of full age, but test, which Ido not think he ought to refuse. The reform
the whole population of this kingdom, is the best possible in parliament took place in 1832. Has the House of Com- I
government and the best kind of representation which it is mans since that period shown themselves, as is represented
possible for the legislature to give. (Hear, hear.) And if it by some, to be the mere servants of the aristocracy, or merely
should be that universal suffrage would give the best legis- bigots who are afraid to enter upon any reform, indifferent
lature, the best laws, and the beat government, I do not to improvement, or careless of the voice of the people ? I
see that this house would be justified in refusing the claim. think no person who considers the changes made in that'
But if this would not give so good a government as a slits time, and how readily those changes have been adopted by
ferent form of voting, then it is mere pedantry and false the house when the voice of the people was clearly aster
philosophy to say that every man ought to have a vote ' for Mined, will say that this house has not responded quickly
the main object of representation, as the main object of our and readily to public opinion of that kind. The new parliament
institutions, being good government and the welfare of the was not long in existence when slavery was entirely abolished
people, you ought not, for the sake of some abstract opinion in the West Indies—an immense change favoured by peti-
about the mean., to lose sight of the very object you ought tions, favoured by the voice of the people, but such a change I
to keep in view. (Hear, hear.) We have mixed cons is 113 was hardly ever adopted before by any leghlature in the
tution ;ion crown and,
the House of Lords are part of that world. (Hear, hear.) Shortly after that the trade with
constituti ; they are not evils to be endured, but part of China was thrown open to the commerce of the world, from
the benefit of the institutions which we enjoy. One of the which great commercial advantages resulted. Ina year or
greatest and one of the most profound writers of antiquity, two after, the commutation of tithes was adopted, a measure
in writing on the subject of government, said, not perhaps in which the clergy and the laity were equally interested,
exactly in words, but in sentiment, what lam about to but at the same time a subject of such difficulty that it
quote: " Every government is formed, either of monarchy, haffied the power and intelligence of Mr. Pitt when he took
of aristocracy, or of democracy. A government formed and it into consideration. The dissenters complained of
co
out of tke three may. be easily imagined, but it cans grievances with respect to the celebration of mar-
not easily Ise brought to pass ;Srif it shall be brought to triages and the registration of births and deaths.
pass it cannot be durable." Such was the sentiment of That grievance was completely and effectually remedied
a great and profound historian—a sentiment authorised In another year or two the municipal corporations were
and justified by all the experience of antiquity, and justified entirely reformed. Many self-selected corporations were
almost by the experience of the world in modern times, with subjected to popular election, and an entirely new con-
the exception of one, and I should say a moat fortunate stitution was given to them. (Hear, hear.) In the course
country It has so happened that in this country we have of late years the house has been occupied with measures
had these elements combined whioh Tacitus said could hardly from which a great ortion of this house dissents, but
be combined—of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy ; and which were great change', and in the opinion of the hon.
it has happened that that constitution has been durable. Sir, member for Montrose great and beneficial reforms. (Hear,
I confess that, seeing how difficult it is, according to t
rue
number
I allude to the changes made in the tariff, to the
judgment, and which I believe to be very nearly a true number of duties which have been abolished, the number of
judgment, with the exception which we Ikea seen—seeing excise and customs duties which have been reduced, and one
how difficult it is to maintain that species of mixed constitu- great alteration and change has been made which surely
tion which ha. provided for the hsppiness of the people in cannot be said to show that this house has been
this country—l have always felt, having bad much to do Peculiarly under the government of the landed
since the year 1819 with proposing measures of reform, and aristocracy—the total and entire repeal of the corn laws.
with assisting other measures of reform, how critical and That measure some gentlemen may think au injurioas
mea-
nice a matter it was to alter inns,
any way the a.l- sure; others may think it highly for the benefit of the
justment of the differ; rat powers a the constitus country ; but, at all events, it shows this, that when there
lion. I retnemb r, on she night before I was was considerable popular agitation, and public meetings
Amerto • og for. •rd the Reform Bill, speaking to an held is the country, and when a great cry arose for the
American e ihed toli nte, who then represented his change, the House of Commons was not slow in listening to
country at our court,ur and I said to him, " I cannot but feel the vole.. of the people, and effecting the alteratian asked
very anxious on proposing to make an alteration in a con- for. (Hear, hear.) Now, if these are changes which have
stitution which has lasted so lung." He said, " Yes, eo long been made, and H various other measures have been car-
and so strong " And that, in fact, is the light in which I ried, such as the reduction of the postage on letter, to a
regard the constitution of this country ; it has been very penrn. (" Oh, oh," from Col. Sibthorp, followed by much
long; it has been very strong ;and we should therefore laughter.) I was mentioning that subject in patenthesie
apply ourselves with the utmost care, with *e utmost de- amongst others ; but I really think that it was a great social
liberation, and I will my with the greatest anxiety, to an, than it was a measure of great import•
plan which proposes to alter the representative body in this ance; and when you find that the correspondence has
house. Then, taking it in that point of view, and not with increased to the enormous extent it has done,
regard to the question of right, ant us see whether a body you may consider how many personsi were prevented from
elected by all the householders and all the lodgers would be the benefit of communicating ve. h their friends ; and when
a better podium
Copt, a better representation than the pre- you think of the interchange of domestic affection which it
sent reAlSli of Commone. If you look to nially household has occasioned; you may estimate how great a benefit it has
suffr •e. the objection applies to which the hon gentleman conferred on the community. (Hear, hear.) • 1 think,
:hat you get a representation of brick and mortar, therefore, shot it cannot he said that the Wormed psalm-
und that those who have been the ail
of the charter meat has either been idle or unwilling to listen to great
will have • fair right to complain when they see the smallest measures of reform ; and let it be recollected likewise that
householders admitted to the right of voting, while (I am sure every member of this house must have a sensi-
loony persons superior in property and in intelli. ble feeling of this benefit, though so many useful measures
gence to the small householders are excluded. (Hear.) connot be carried on account a it) the debates on every subs
Ido not think that that is an objection which can be fairly therefore
are now more protracted than formerly, and that there is
eatertained against the present system of suffrage, because therefore greater difficulty in carrying any number of mess
that mode makes a choice among the householders ;it does sores in a single session. (" Hear' - and laughter.) The
give a right to property ;it takes property of a certain hon. ntleman has asked us. to agree to those
.great wee-
•
amount; it takes the rating combined with that property, sures combined in the.
begfour different points which he has
and then fixes the franchise. If we admitted the whole of Proposed. Now, sir, I to state that Ido not think re-
the householders without any other qualification than that of forms should be. confined to the subjects I have mentioned,
being householders., it would be open to the objection and others of a similar kind.
.1 do not th. ink. that we should
If content ourselves with improving the legislation, and altertny
that we admitted men of inferlOr intelligence. -•

the excise and customs. (Cheers.) I think while the reform bill
was a settlement of a great question that the Reform Bill
itself may admit Iran time to tune of such improvements or
alterations as experience and knowledge may suggest.
(Rear, hear.) And at the time when I was most attacked
as speaking of the Reform fit'l as a final measure, I spoke
in this manner of the rev ntion of the freemen. I and I
thought it won a misfortune that the freemen were kept in
the Reform Bill, and that if they exercised the franchise
corruptly, one of two courses must be adopted. either
to disfranchise them altogether, or, what I consi-
dered the better course, to treat the rights of
the freemen as other rights had been treated.
In a subsequent I armee, I said that there were many de-
fects in the Reform Bill, which required to be corrected,
but that such chances differed entirely from a proposition to
found a new reform bill, based on triennia. parliaments,
household suffrage, and vote by ballot. This was paid in my
letter to the electors of Stroud, written in 1839. From the
year 1839 to the present time, I do not think the hon.
member for Montrose, or any of those who agree with him,
have thought it necessary to bring forward this question of the
constitution of the Reuse of Commons. Neither as
a minister officially, nor when sitting on that side
of the house, hive I thought it necessary to intro-
duce any measures of reform on this particular sub-
ject. But as the public mind seems now alive to
subjects of this nature, I believe the time will come—per-
haps is not far distant—when reforms of the description I
mentioned might to introduced, which will tend to purify
the representative System. I think the inquiry we intend
to make by the bill introduced this semein with regard
to certain borough., some of which have been ac-
cused and others proved to be guilty of corrupt'
practices, may give us further information than
we now possess as to the course we ought to pursue—
whether some of those boroughs ought to be disfranchised,
and whether we ought not to take the same course with re-
gard to others that were taken with respect to the freemen of
Great Yarmouth. But I should be sorry to see one or the
other course adopted without other measures to accompany
them. I should be sorry I. see this house much reduced by
disfranchising boroughs, or to disfranchise freemen without
at the same time admitting other kinds of voter, to take,
their place. (Hear, hear ) What I have always admitted
to be the defeat of the reform bill is not the having of eighty- I
five different kinds of votes as stated by the hon. gen-
tleman. What I think the defect of the reform MB
is that the great variety in the right of voting which fairs
merly existed has been too much reduced to a uniform eye-
tem. (Hear, hear.) I think that by some different'
varietiess of suffrage, by giving the franchise, for instance, to
those who have placed money in the savings hank, and than
showed their tensility; and to those who have been elected
by guild., thus showing that their te'low citizens placed
confidence in them ; and by other modes of this kind, we
might extend the franchise we bout injuring the basis of our
representation. lam not disposed to say the reform bill is a
final measure and that you cannot usefully and beneficially
alter and improve it. (Hear, hear.) But if the hon. gentle-
man or the house ask me whether I am prepared at the
present moment to introduce any bill, for that purpose, I
must at once say that 1 do not at the present moment intend
to introduce any considerable measures of the kind. I might
find reasons enough for that in the variety of measures before
the house, and to which the attention of the house has been
already in a great degree directed. But sir, there are other
reasons—reasons which induced the hon. gentleman the
member for Montrose to think that this was a gond
time for a large measure of reform, but which
induced me to come to a totally different conclusion.
It is admitted, and it must be admitted, that sixteen years
ago you adopted a very large measure of reform in the repre-
sentation—a much larger measure, I believe, than the most
sanguine reformers of the day expected the ministers of the
king to adopt. It must be admitted that the carrying of the
measure of inform--the removal of Gattoo, Old Sarum, and
such like places, from the repr sentation, and the admission
to it of such towns as Leeds, Birmingham, Sheffield, and
Manchester—that ell this has contributed to give a larger
and a more secure basis to the representation. It cannot be
denied either that the House of Commons thus reformed has
carried large measures of improvement— vast in their
changes—tending to the increase of popular power and po-
pular advantage, and showing that the house is ready to act
according to the enlightened opinions of the people. The
hon member says our votes this year have been extrava-
gant, and that we have been actirg against the opinions of
the people in the great eatablishmenta we have kept
up. There are some questions of the presenp session
on which I have desired the division lists of the
house to be examined, so that comparisons might
he made between the constituencies represented by members
dividing in the majority and the counties represented by
memners dividing in the minority. On the first of the cc
divisions, that limiting the duration of the incamc tax, the
members who voted in the majority represented 668,038,
whilst these who voted in the minority represented only
316,689 electors. In the division of the 29th cat March, on a
motion of Mr. Hume's for inducing the number of men in
our navy, there voted in the m ijority the representatives of
716,278 electors, and in the minority the representatives of
only 171,317. On a similar motion, for reducing the num-
ber of men in the army, there voted in the majority 600,753
electors, and in the minority 163,255. (Hear, bear.) Now,
after these divisions on great public questions, I think it
cannot be said that the small boroughs have overpowered
the votes of the people upon matters relating to finance.
The votes of the house en these occasions have fairly repre-
sented the opinions of the people. That there has been of
late years a tendency to augment our establishments on
the part of this house, the government, and the country,
I believe to be true. There are times when it
is thought well that we should render our establishments
as perfect and efficient as possible; and then when, in are
oordance with that wish, large sums have been expended, it
! often happens that the tide changes, and that a great wish is
expressed that no more money should be spent than is abso-
lutely necessary. In times of distress, when trade my
happen to be crippled from any cause, such a clone may
be desirable to adopt, and I am sure that at such a period
the house and the government never fail to feel and
act upon that principle. As I said before, there
can be no ground for saying at present, that with regard
to expenditure the house does not represent the opinions of
the nation. (Hear, hear.) My belief is that it does, and
that it represents it fairly. (Cheering.) Well then, air, if
you find !hat a great measure of reform was carried 16 years
ago, that great measures of reform have been carried by the
parliament SD improved—if you find also that on questions
which do arise or which are like'y to arise this house repre-
sents the opinions of the people. and not any selfish motive
or class interest—then, I say, this is not the
time when a cry and a clamour for more reform ought
to be excited. The cry for change at present raised is ac-
companied by ao many suggestions and proposals that are
wild and visionary—such, for example, as those contained in
the petition presented to-night by the noble lord the member
for Bath—(hear, hear) views of capital, labour, and pro-
perty of the most erroneous kind, are so generally alien, that
there is, I think, good reason in that for not making, at this
time, any great or sweeping alterations. And here let me
may that I deny the charge—the popular and common
charge—that the government of this country is carried on for
the benefit °tits anstocrecy I believe sincerely that the govern-
ment is carried on for the benefit of the people at large, and for
I the sake of no class interest; but if it lie meant to be said
that because people belong to the aristocracy they are to be
debarred rem taking their part in public affair., why I ob-
ject entirely to such narrow views. (Hear, hear.) I, for
my part, will never allow that because a man happens to be
ea led Stanley or Howard he is to be prevented from enjoying
public distinction, as if because he had not a name less noble
or less illustrious. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, there are other
reasons—reasons of which the members of this house can-
not but be sensible—ressons which I find in the records of
ev nta which have been and are ev, ry day happening around
us. (Hear, hear.) At such a time the advantages you have
had in the preservation of law and order—the advantages
which you have enjoyed in the fineness of your institutions—
are great. In England you have exhibited an object for the
admiration of the world. The stability you have shown in
the storms amid which kingdoms and nations have been over-
whelmed has not only excited the admiring astonishment of
all who desire the preservation of tranquillity., but has
brought you the respect of those whose respect it is an object
of ambition to enjoy. You have stool.
Like a vast sea-mark placed epos the shore,
A beacon for the wrecked.
(Cheers.) I hope that at such a time you will not think it
right to go into vague and indefinite proposals of reform—
proposals that do, indeed, apparently evade the principles of
the people's charter, but which, in reality, cannot stop short
of that great change in our constitution. I would rather
hope that you will think it due to the institutions it is your
advantage to inherit—that you will think it due to the other
branch of the legislature—that you will think it due to tile
people whom you represent—to give a steadfast and el eter.
mined negative to the motion not before you. (The noble
lord sat down amidst great cheering.)
Mr. W. J. FOX sail that runny exceptions had been
taken to the proposal, which belonged rather to the details
than to the prince* of the plan. His object was to fix at-
tention on the .rcpt principles which this question involved.
lie thought the noble lord must have been pleased with the
tine opportunity he had had of correcting any mistake in re-
ference to his expressions upon former occasions. It must
have been gratifying to him to be able to
tell the country that he was favourable to
some reforms, though it would have been more gratifying to
the country to have been informed what those reforms were.
He conks ed, for his own part, that in what had been said
he found very ettle indeed ti guide them. Ths statem nt
was most indefinite. It merely amounted to this, that ad-
vantage would at one time be taken of any opportunity that
might offer to disfranchise a man who had been found guilty
of bribery, and at another time to admit a man who had
proved himself worthy of the franchise by putting money in
the savings bank. He did not think it was quite lair to
refer, as had been done, to the want of unanimity at the
meetings on this subject. To complete the statement
on that point it should have been stated that at
not one of these meetings had either party been over-
powered by any third party, who were opposed to all
reforms. (Hear, hear.) Those meetings proved that the
people thought it quite indispensable to entertain the one
question or the other. But he thought the fallacy that
ran through the noble lord's siencs was, tbat they were to
regard representation as an eater: al agency mere];. A re-
presentative government was a government of opinion, and
the members of it were to consider the feelings of their
constituencies. He saw something tar more important in the
question, than whether some millions sterling too
much had or had not been granted at any given period.
It was a question whether the millions of beings around us,
our fellow-countrymen, should cherish in their bosoms the
noble, the elevating, the comforting feeling of conscious free-
dom, or should be weighed down by the degrading, the dan-
gerous sense that they were only members of a slave class in
what purports to be a free country. (Hear, hear.) Ti.ere
was no uuestion of foreign diplomacy or of domestic manage-
ment more important to the safety and to the eventual
prosperity and glory of Great Britain than the state of

feeling of the great masses whom they in that
honee claimed to represent. The one main political
point raised by the resolution of the hen. member for
Montrose, was this ; were the working classes represented
as they ou :ht to be in that house, and if not, :Quid they be
so represented, without peril to any valuable institution,
nay, with a better prospect thence of our taking a perm meat
place at the head of nations in the great nierch of civilize
tion ? It was his opinion that they were not so ref resented,
and that they could be so represented without the danger
suggested, and with the auspicious prospect he had indicated.
From the returns laid on the table of the house
on the motion, loot year, of Mr. Williams, it appeared that
there were 3A1,645 names on the list of the household suf-
frage; but of this number how many might be supposed to
belong to the industrial classes ? Of the 320,615 vat's only
99,1.40 were in respect of houses ranging hetw, en 10i. and
15/, rent, so that one-third of the household bough consti-
tuency was swamped by the classes above them, for, when
you got to the 20/ , 301., 501. rents, rising up among the
higher portion of the middle classes, you of course lost sized
altogether of the working people at all. The borough seal
city votes not dependent on household suffrage, such as those
of the Livery of London, and so on, wire only 32,000 alto-
gether; so that, allowing one moiety of the howehold
suffrage ranging between 101. and 15/. rent, and
one moiety of the other 32,000 votes, to the absolutely in-
dustrial classes, these clamss numbered but 60,000 voters
in a total constituency of 830,000—(heir, hear)—that was to
say, 1 vote in 17. Surely it could not be said that this was
a lair representation given to the indu.tred millions, whose
strong arms, whose thinking head., and whose indomitable
labour had created the wealth and greatness, of the country
—(hear, hear)—and who, in return, were treated as helots
upon its soil, as slaves who had nothing to do with the laws
but to obey them. (Hear, hear.) Much had been said
about the claims of abstract right, and the claims of property
in this country. It appeared to him that the question was
capable of a sufficient settlement without going into any
very line distinctions on these points. Let them but cause
the working millions of this country to be represented : this
was what was wanted, and in doing this he would not very
minutely inquire into the state of their information and ae-
quirements, or into the amount of their deposits at the
wings' banks. They were taxed, they paid their quota
towards the expenses of the state, and they had at least a
property in their strong arms and their reflecting brains, and
here was enough to give them a right to be recognised as
constituents—tor it was not members of the legislature
it was proposed to make them. As constituents, it
needed not far them to he initiated in the mys-
teries of the Spanish, marriages, or to be conversant
with every chess of the treaty of Utrecht; it was only re-
quisite that they should, after watching the public conduct
of their neighbour, or of some man of national reputation,
be empowered to say, " This is he in whom I have confi-
dence, and I elect hint my representative." (Hear, hear.)
One of the most interesting debates on the subject of parlia-
mentary reform in his recollection occurred in 1822, when
the noble lord brought forward, in a most remarkably im-
pressive speech, his views on the subject. The noble lord
then said; " We have now not only one free agent but there
are in this country at least one million of (magenta, men per-
fectly free and independent, who have no vote for a member
of parlament, though anxious to acquire the right, and
in every way qualified to exercise the functions of electors."
Again, in 1831, the noble lord had said:'—" Although
it is a much disputed question, yet I believe it will
he found that in ancient times every freeman, being an in-
habitant householder resident ia a borough, was competent
to vote for members of parliament. But to revert to the
noble lord's speech in 1822, it was a very original argument,
very striking, and produced a very great effect upon the
country, whatever its effect upon the house. Ile begged t
draw the attention of the house to that speech now, 1) cause
it applied with great force to the present discussion. The
noble lord, in adverting to the then intelligence of the
country, as adapting it for an extended suffrage, pointed out
that there were in London 100 circulating libraries, and 900
more scattered throughout the country. Ile spoke rat the two
great quarterly review., the Quarterly and the Edinburgh,
of the Bible and other societine of the 23 millions of news-
papers issued in the year preceding. If all te is were an ar-
gument for extending the suffrage in 1822, what much
stronger arguments were now presented in the enormously
increased diffusion of knowledge which had since taken
place. If, by their knowledge, a million of free agents were
then entitled to the franchise, but had it not—and had it not,
one-half of them, to this day—how many more now were en-
titled to it? The newspapers circulated now were not 23 mil-
lions, but nearer 60 millions than 50 millions. There were
half-a-dezen quarterly reviews ; there were as many mecha
flies' institutes in Yorkshire alone as then id the whole
country ; there had been halts-million of money expended,
and that not halt enough, ia aid of the mere erection of schools
there had been diffused millions and millions of
penny cyclopicilias, of penny magazines, of Chambers's
various publications; and, if it were said, however fallaci-
ously, that these were all light reading, not adapted to ele
vote the public mind to constituent qualifleatioa,, he would
add that, besides these new publicatioas, our standard writers
had been issuel in millions of copies at a rate placing them
within the reach of the very humblest classes. The "Essays
of Bacon" were attainable now for 4d. ; the plays
of Shakspeare for three or four shillings. (Hear, hear.)
Look also at the increase of intellectual pursuits amongst
the people at large of late years, as manifested in various
wane The returns of the Bride's Museum shower-1 that in
1832 the number of visitors was 147,896, whilst in 1847 it hail
increased to 820,966 ; and in the reading-room the same in.
crease of persons frequenting that place of study was observ-
able, the numbers, in 1832, being 31,200, and in 1847,
67,525. Take the working cisme, also in their studies and
recreations, and what was highly important in their ecoso-
mics, and the most remarkable 1031liti would be seen. The
number of savings banks in 1833 was 484. The number of
amounts open ia them was 475,835. and the amount of de-
posits was 715,7111. In November, 1814, which was the last
return be had been able to procure, the mures of alevines
banks in the three kingdoms hail increased to 1,577,
whilst the amount of deposits had also proportion-
ately increased. The same results were observable
in the Manchester an I Salford savings banks, if
individual cases were referred to. He would, however, go
no further into this branch of statistics, hut, by way of
showing the advance made by the people, he would cite from
some papers moved for by the hon. member for Salford,
which showed that the number of persons above the age of
15 who had signed petitions to that house during the five
yearn up to 1832 inclusive was 74,036. In the
next five years the number won increased to 14,014, end in
the last five years it reached 16,397, showing a gradual annual
increase of dissatisfaction on the part of the working classes
with the government. Whilst at the same there was a
marked and rapid progress in intelligence, and also in eco:
inimical and saving habits. There was one remarkable fea-
ture in the progress manifested by the people at large to be
observed in the fact, that not only were there readers, but
also writers springing up amongst the working classes,
and let him remark, not writers dependent, as
formerly, upon the patronage of the great and
wealthy, but who retained strong within them
the feelings of that class in which they were born and bred.
Compare these writers with those of former times, and
the advantage was immeasurably on their side. He
could cite amongst them authors whose names were strange
to the great majority of those who sat there, and yet every
legislator would do well to consult their works ; for unless
they did, they could not understand the spirit which ani-
mated the classes te whom they addressed themselves. There
was Bamford, the weaver, whose graphic description
of the massacre of Manchester in the year 1819,
would be transferred to his pages by the future historian.
There was the writer signing " One who has whistled at the
Plough," whose description of a soldier's flogging made the
flesh crawl, and even the cold critics had been stimulated
into admiration by the force of his description. There was
William Thom, the Inverury weaver, who had written
songs worthy of the land which gave birth to Burns.
There were other names worthy to be cited
William Lovett and Thomas Cooper amongst others—
who could be summoned as witnesses to the truth of what
he stated. But he would not ask the house to take his ques-
tionable evidence on the subject. He would refer them to
the bon. member for Reading, who had so elegantly raid
of Akenside that be had infused the spirit of Plato into Eng-
lish poetry—or to a writer in a different department of let,.
ten, he meant the honourable member for Buckingham-
shire, who had discovered the merit of "The Pur-
gatory of Suicides," and had enabled the author, humble
cobbler though he was, to bring his poem before the public.
When he reflected that the whole
I.leerature of the class of
writers to whom he referre pervaded by one political
spirit ; when he taw that
that these writers were indignant at
the shaneeeev
th'..eatened the future, he could only warn the government
proceedings of past years, and that they
and the legislature of the absolute necessity far re.'
cognising their claims; already those claims had 'seen
recognised and represented in the noblest time—
that of intellectual supremacy ; and in refusing them their
political rights, the legislature exhibited a suicidal folly, dic-
tated by a short-sighted policy, which said 'that whilst as
authors the men who:* he had referred. to had a place
olrforrntoindb e e
qxt
exceptional
householders.it
ie being
name
people?
n,,gp:
(:nsed.
They
dieua:ti into
pt
enstiihieh,cca.
)butworship-
fulumgt7.tt
uemayt,
amongst those who were deemed worth- of the laurel, they
wereear
ta
re
do
nth luleylotei not worthy
egtoaswiu:
much mistook the working classes, who did not esteem the
individuals to whom he tiesned as the worthy countrymen
of 'Mitten and of Leek c—names that termed the brightest
Flory o, England. What did they tear from these men?
chat they would render the House of Commons less decorous
or dignified than it now was? Did the House of Commons
think that those men would return as their representatives
the lowest refuse of their own body ? Would the representa-
tives of the working classes render the debates in that
house more personal than they now were ? Would they
come down there and subject themselves to be told they
were flushed with champagne or brandy, and that their
volubility caused a loss of time, and did not promote the
progress of business? (Laughter end cheers.) Would they
endanger property a Why, property sees the very soul of
the English character. (Hear.) It was not possible for any
one to propose a scheme for oetaining it, however delusive,
however wild, but that the desire for obtaining property in-
duced some to join It. Savings banks, building funds, land
schemes—(loud laughter)—all were grasped at with avidity.
Even such a lottery as the Land scheme had succeeded in
exciting the hopes and expectations of the working classes, and
they had eagerly sought prizes in it. Nor were there
any such feelings or desires entertained by those classes as
were so strangely imputed to them in a document that had
iecently been laid on the table of the house. He had oh.
' served tee people most closely, and his judgment of them
was conclusive as to the propriety of adminine them to the
poor privilege of a single voice in electing their representa-
tives. (Hear.) Let them consider what the people el,:
been exposed to. He was old enough to ree thect the systeet
of corruption which prevailed fifty years ago. He hel
known as pure a constituency as ever gained in tee was )1e
length and breadth of the land. How was the cue now ?