The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-13 00:00:00

THE BOROUGH OF CLITIIEROE.

Mr. GASKELL, in moving for an address to appoint a
commission to inquire into the state of the borough of Cli-
theroe, said that under ordinary circumstances he should
be averse from a step which would probably affect the con-
stitutional privileges of any borough ; but there were
cases in which corruption so gram and notorious existed,
that an election committee would be shrinking from its duty
unless it asked the house for i further inquiry ; and in
which the house would be shrinking from its duty unless it
granted that inquiry. (Hear, bear.) The ease of the
borough of Clitheroe resembled in many points those other
cases which had already been brought under their consider-
alien; but it differed from them in the unblushing manner
in which the malpractices were carried on. and the total
absence of all attempt to gloss them over. It had been stated
that one person had been offered 401., another 50/., and a
third 1001. In another ease a bribe of 30/. bad been offered
and accepted, as had been proved to the satisfaction of
the committee. Gross intimidation had been proved ;
and voters had been removed under • safe escort
to a place twenty miles dist tnt. (Laughter.) In short
every undue appliance had been resorted to—the treating'
had been gross and systematic; and the intimidation was
proved Co have been very extensive. The borough con-
tained 41‘0 or 500 electors; and large bodies of armed men
had tnen introduced into it for the purpose of overawing
the voters. Surely it that practice were to be tolerated it
was impossible to conceive anything more calculated to
bring discredit and odium upon our representative system.
(blear, hear.) In conclusion, ho begged to add that the
motion he had the honour to propose had met with the
unanimous concurrence of the committee over which he had
presided. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman then moved
the address, in sallies Mr. Percival Andrea Pickering, Mr.
George Goodin Barrett, and Mr. Gathorne Hardy were
sensed as commissioners.
Mr. COBDEN presented two petitions—the one signed
by 160 of the elect,rs of Clitheroe, and the other also nu-
' onerously signed by electors and non-electors, complaining
of the gross intimidation which had prevailed in that
borough. The petition mentioned the names of many per-
sons, chiefly proprietors, who were involved in charges of
that nature. He would not go into these matters, further
Ihra to say, that he bad in his hand • notice to
quit on the 30ib of July, riven to a tenant who
had been solicited to vote on the 7th of that
month, but who had voted for the other candidate.
The person in this case had been • tenant for 30 years.
Ile (Mr. Cobden) was told that many other cases could be
proved, but doubts had arisen whether the commissioners
could receive evidence of intimidation, under the act. It
was possible that the commissioners might take • large and
comprehensive view of the wording of the statute, but it
was, nevertheless, a cave of great daubt. Now be (Mr.
Cobden) would ask the house whether there was any dif-
ference between bribing a man and intimidating him by
threats of pecuniary loss? The introduction of the blud-
geon men complained of in the election petition was clearly
illegal ; but was not the case equally flagitious where a pro-
prietor held up a threat of ejection over his tenant,
a creditor who held up his security over his
unfortunate debtor, or a customer who held u
the loss of his custom over his tradesmen ? (Hear, hear.)
He should certainly advise evidence of intimidation and
tre sting to be tendered to the commissioners in order to as-
certain what was really the law ; and if it should turn out
that such practices did not come within the meaning of the
act, he trusted the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) would bring
in a measure to amend the existing law. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE agreed with the hon. gentleman that
the law ought to be altered with reference to treating and
intimidation ; but he quite concurred with hien in thinking
that the malpractices referred to in tho act related only to
bribery. He thought that the session aught not to pass by
without a bill being brought in to consolidate and amend all
the statutes relating to bribery; and he had himself made
great progress with such a measure. (Cheer.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL entirely Concurred with
the view of the act which had been expressed by the right
hon. gentleman; but he begged to remind the tight bon.
gentleman that when the noble lord introduced the bill it
included treating and intimidation, but that those mal-
practices had been struck out of it in another place. He
was glad to hear that the right hon. gentleman was engaged
upon a measure upon the subject, and he trusted it would
contain a provision that where extensive treating and inti-
midation were shown to prevail, power would be given to
address the crown for a commission. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT thought that if the comet--'

allowed those liberal powers of construction which were
granted to all judges they would have power to deal with
this Aoki.
Mr. S. WORTLEY would not dispute the opinion which
had been given by such high authorities, but at the same
time he could not altogether assent to it ; for it was certain
that treating might amount in some cases to absolute
bribery. On the whole, he should be disposed not to issue
the commission; but rather to wait until the law had been
amended. (Hear, hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL hoped it was not sup-
posed that he considered treating would not amount to bri-
bery, for he believed that there were cases in which it was
as clear bribery as the giving of money ; but he Aid not
understand that the committee had reported any such treating
to have been resorted to.
!oSir F. KELLY agreed with the Attorney-General that
this was not a case within the act of parliament.
Mr. HUTT, as a member of the committee, hoped the
house would not be induced, by any philological niceties,
to defeat the ends of justice, and the great object of all
their proceedings.
Mr. HINDLEY contended that the house was bound by
the reportof the committee. It would be moat unfair to
suspend the writ on account of a single case of bribery.
That house could not carry out the act by itself ; the House
of Lords must be consulted ; and on that account they
ought not to resort to a commission without good grounds.
Mr. J. GLADSTONE referred to the evidence given

before the committee, and veld it was their unanimous-wish
that further inquiry should take place. At their meeting
lists bad been given in of numerous cases of bribery and of
open public houses. The house would stultify itself, unless
inquiry took place in a case like this. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was of opinion that it would
not be advisable to strain the law to meet any particular
case. Had the bill of ibil oome back from the lords in the

.
same shape in which it went to them, this ease of Clitheroe
would clearly have been included in it, sad there would
have been an inquiry by commission into the ease before the
house. But the lords expressly excluded the cue of treat-
ing from the bill ; and that being so, it was impossible for
them to act as if thou words were included. He had ad-
vised the house to concur with the amendments of the lords ;
and if any gross case of treating occurred, it was still opdn
to the house to proceed as in the cases of Sudbury and St.
Albans, to carry through a bill, and send it up to the other
house. Of course, in this case or any other, it was
open to any member who chose to do so. Mr. Bright
said he had warned him of the effect of leaving
out these words. He (Lord J. Russell) was not
answerable for that amendment ; but the question was
whether he should allow the bill to be dropped, and have
none at all. {Hear, hear.) He thought it far preferable to
obtain such an act as they had. The cases of Canterbury
and some others had shown that they were able to institute
investigation into cases of bribery, which they should other-
wise have been obliged to pass by. (Hear, hear.) He still
thought, however, after the experience they had had, that
it was tolerably evident that the house ought to have the
power of proceeding by address, in cases of treating ; and he
should be very glad if such an amendment was introduced.
Mr. DISRAELI quite agreed with the noble lord as to
the inexpediency of straining the law, and also, after what
had taken place in the other house, that it would not be
wise in them to sanction any commission of inquiry into
treating, however excessive. (Hear, hear.) Certainly, after
the evidence they had had as to treating at Clitheroe,
he did not think that would be a basis for a com-
mission.
But the evidence and report of the Clitheroe
committee was not by any means confined to the matter of
treating. There was considerable evidence, proving that
corrupt practices, including direct bribery and offers of
bribes, had prevailed there for a long time. (Hear, hear.)
It was true the report oaly alleged one ease; but the cause
of this had been already pointed out. It was no doubt pow-
tectly open to the house to appoint a committe of inquiry
into the subject of treating. But before deciding that
question, they ought to ask if the evidence before the
Clitheroe committee did not show that corrupt practices and
direct bribery had extensively prevailed. (Beer, bear.)
He apprehended that the number given in evidence before
the committee was by no means considerable.
Mr. HINDLEY—One.
Mr. DISRAELI—At all events, there was evidence that
bribes had been offered to four or five individuals; and one
man stood out because they would not give him 150/.
(Hear, hear.) It was a difficult case to decide upon; but if
asked to decide, he must do so in favour of issuing a com-
mission. (Hear, hoar.)
The house then divided.
For the motion
Against it
_ CARRIAGE DUTIES. . .

Sir DE L. EVANS, in moving for leave to bring in a
bill to alter the scale of duties on carriages, said that he
did so in the interest of the large body of artisans em-
ployed in the carriage trade. The present duties were
arranged under twenty-sin different classes, varying from
11.5 e. per carriage to 91. Is. He proposed to reduce the
twenty-six classes to three, as follows :—For four wheeled
carriages, drawn by two horses, 31. per year ; ditto, drawn
by one horse, 21. ; for two wheelers, 11. He did not think
this would involve ony diminution of duty. ll estimated
the sum to be rer,ivcil by the swlo he proposed at 127,0001.
The citemptions in 1852, under the present system were
7,881. Letters h►d been addressed to persons of respect-
ability in various towns and counties, inquiring the propor-
tion between taxed and untaxed carriages. This varied

exceedingly; but the average of the whole was 47 taxed to
502 untaxed, of above ten to one of the latter. Taking the
proportion at four-fold, instead of ten-fold, the amount
to be received under the second head, at 21. per
carriage, would be 66,0001. From two.whoeled car-
riages he. estimated a receipt of 22,5001. In 1812 the
number exempt of that class was 44,091 The exemption
was the only item in these duties that was annually on the
increase; this year it was 52,000. The whole tax for this
year was 407,0001. on the plan proposed, 427,0001. would
be received, if his calculations at all approached correctness.
There was no reason to apprehend that it would be any
lees ; he believed there would be a considerable gain to the
exchequer, fir no doubt a considerable impetus would be
given to the trade, and a number of carriages of these
classes would he immediately brought into use. No tax
was more objectionable than this. He proposed to lighten
it on those now paying the tax, and bring in some classes
that had not hitherto paid. For the last three years there
had been a regular decrease in the receipts from this tax.
Mr. TURNER, in seconding the motion, said that the
house would perceive the evil of the carriage tax, from the
fact that the builders of untaxed carriages were flee to one
as compared with the builders of taxed vehicles.
Mr. BRIGHT said that one reason why the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should be disposed to deal with this tax
was, that it might be improved without any diminution of
the revenue, which, under the present system, was slowly
but steadily decreasing. The coach-builders, unfortunately.
were a race who, except in Long acre, did not congregate
much together; they were consequently without much
political influence, and the consequence was that no
Chancellor of the Exchequer paid them much atten-
tion. (Laughter.) They had been for :years subject
to a species of Exchequer "garotte" which strangled
an industry as valuable for the amount it produced as any
other in the country. (Hear, bear.) People were in the
habit of considering carriages a luxury, and that they would
be kept up to the same extent whatever the tax imposed
upon them. But that was a great mistake. Many persons,
especially in the country, kept up carriages mere for use
than ostentation. 'rho evils of the tax were shown by the
effect produced in London, where 50 firms had in the
course of ten years become bankrupt, or gave up business;
and in the country, where in 50 towns the trade of
carriage building had become unknown, though formerly
a brisk trade had been carried on. But what he should recent•
mend to the right hon. gentleman when he was going to
make a change in this tax, would be to impose a small tax on
each wheel, without descending to wheelbarrows or carts
used for trade, disregarding altogether this number of horses
and the size of the wheel. (Hear, hear.) He thought
that this would produce an increasing revenue. Sup-
pose that a man paid 11. for one carriage, he
would have him pay 101. if he kept 10 carriages.
This was a simple mode of levying the tax, sad he believed
it would preface a steadily increasing amount. (Hear.)
lie hoped that his hon. friend was not going to divide, as
he supposed that his object would be gained by the discus-
sion which he provoked. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was glad to hear the concluding observation of the hon.
gentleman. With regard to the decrease in the number of
carriages, and also in the amount of revenue, he thought it
was to a great degree owing to a cause which had not been
noticed by any of the speakers who preceded him—namely,
the increase in the number of railways. (Hear, hear.) He
did not however mean to say that this was the sole,
though he believed it to be the main, cause of the
diminution. Without at all pledging the government to
as, course whatever, he admitted that the case of this
trade was a hard one. Ho had heard that case repre-
sented by those interested in the trade, and ho endea-
voured to make himself acquainted with the facts.
He admitted that the rate of ditty was extremely
high, that it was in its nature complex, and that
the provisions of the act were of an invidious descrip-
tion. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant member com-
plained of the liberty of compounding for the tax, but he
apprehended this was a relief given in consequence of the
progressive augmentation of the duty ix proportion to the
number of carriages kept. (Hear, hear.) The multitude
and extensive range of the exemptions were a more oppres-
sive part of the present system. (Hear, hear.) These, ex-
emptions lay at the root of the whole matter, and if the
house felt disposed at any time to deal with these
duties and to give relief to the trade, they must be
prepared either to sacrifice a large amount of the present
duty, probably 200,0001. a year—which was a large sum in
proportion to the amount levied, or they must pluck up
courage and cut to the root of the evil—the exemptions.
(Hear, hear.) His explanations tin this subject were
' looming" In a very short future. (Laughter.) On
Monday next he would state the course the government
meant to pursue with regard to these duties, and he hoped
the hon. and gallant gentleman would be satisfied with
this. (Hear.)
Mr. FRENCH said that the hon. member for Man-
chester's statement with regard to Ireland was not snore
accurate than his statements generally with respect to that
country.
The motion was then withdrawn.
PUBLIC REVENUE._

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the question he was about to
move was one which deeply affected the management and
collection of the public revenue, and his object was to
obtain an assurance from the house that they would not
permit a large portion of the public taxes to be expended by
any persons whatsoever without its concurrence and autho-
rity. (Hear.) He considered this duty was one of the
most important and peculiar functions of the House of
Commons. But he regretted to sly that this duty had been
ter a long period most culpably neglected, by allowing a
large portion of the public revenue to be intercepted in its
way from the pockets of the people to the public exchequer.
It appeared from a return which he moved for, and which was
presented to the house in the cuurse of the present session,
that 6,000,0001. had been intercepted in this way. Of this
sum 3,936,0001. had been impounded by the officers of the
departments—the customs, excise, stamps, poet-
office, +lc. A very large portion of this sum, namely,
660,0001. a year, had been detained for the purpose of re-
payments,
drawbacks, and " other payments." Now, what
were these "other payments 1" en the Customs, for qua-
rantine, warehouses, and judicial es•ablishments in Scot-
land (such was the description), 313,0001. was eaten up.
Ice the Excise the payments other than the coot of collection
asasistod of pensions granted in the reign of King Charles
IL awl William 111., salaries to the inspectors of the
mown, payments towards the civil government of Scotland,
Ort the encouragement of British fishing, for the
salaries of process. servers, and allowances to the officers
of the late tax department in Ireland, &c. In this way
84,6791. was eaten up. Then there was a sum of 103,0001.
kept back by the Woods and Forests department. He
untended that the whole of this amount of 560,0001.
aught to be paid into the public treasury, and that votes
asisla to be taken in the estimates for the various revenue
isplasents as for the army, navy, and ordnance. (Hear,
hear.) Ha had heard it said that there were difficulties in
the way of effecting this ; but he would undertake to re-
move them in a little time, and he was sure the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer could very easily surmount them.
The halm would be astonished to find what had been the
result of the expenditure of such an enormous sum of mo-
ney without control. In the year 1806, a period of war
and extravagance, a committee was appointed by a whig
government to inquire into the cost of collecting the reve-
nue, and, as the result of the inquiry, it appeared that the
coat of collecting 58,000,0001. was 2,797,0001., or 41 per
cent. The expense of collecting the revenue of l&51, which
was 56,000,0001., was 3,936,0001., being 1,140,0001.
in execs of the cost of collecting 2,000,0001. less revenue in
1806. Moreover, in 1506, the Post-office packet service was
maintained and paid by the Post-office department, which
was not the case at present; and if this item of expense
were added to the. 1,140,0001., there would be a sum of
2,000,0001. more for collecting the ue in 1851, than
was paid in 1806. It mast also be taken into account that
the price of wheat in 1806 was 765. per quarter. In 1803
wheat was at 86s. per quarter, or pretty nearly double its
cut at the present time; in fact, the price of every article
which entered into the consumption of those who
were employed in collecting the revenue was now
little more than one-third of what it was then.
He entertained great hopes that an entire change of
system with regard to government departments was at
hand. The right hon. gentleman, the late Chancellor of
the Exchequer, observed in his speech on introducing his
budget, that one part of the duty of the then government
would be to pay the whole of this 6,000,0001. into the El-
chequer. Again, they had had a lecture from the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer, as recently as Friday last, on
the duties of that house, and of individual members of it,
with regard to the same matter. In introducing his
finings' measure the right hon. gentleman said :.
" No man can admit more fully than I do the perfect right
of parliament, and of every member of parliament, nay, the
bounden duty and obligation of parliament to maintain
intact its control over the whole operation of taxation."—
Thus had the right hon. gentleman, in language most
eloquent, most decisive, and most constitutional, described
the position and duty of that house with regard to the
revision of taxes. He felt sure, therefore, that the I
right honourable gentleman would use similar language
that evening; and declare that it was the duty
of that house, after imposing taxes on the people, to
see that no portion of them was expended independently of
its own authority and control. (Hear, bear.) After
quoting such a declaration of opinion from the right hon.
gentleman, it would be presumptuous in him to detain the
house any longer, and he would therefore conclude at once
with tke motion, namely, " That it appears, by a return
ordered by this house in the present session, that an enor-
mous amount of the public money is annually intercepted
on its way from the people's pockets to the Treasury. and
expended without the sanction and control of this house,
and in violation of the constitutional principle, that no two
shall be imposed upon the people, or the product thereof
expended, without the authority of their representatives ia
parliament; that the said return shows, that ' the amount
intercepted and expended in the year 1851, which never
reached the Exchequer, was 6,072,1511. 94. 9d., of white li
amount 5,622,257/. was deducted from the gross receipts of the
taxes by the various revenue departments, and expended by
the said departments for the paynient of their officers,andother
purposes, without the supervision and control of parlia-
ment ; that for the security of the public monies, and accu-
rate keeping of the public accounts, it is indispensable that
the whole of the public income should, without any deduc-
tion whatever, be paid into her Majesty's Exchequer, and
that no portion of it should be issued therefrom, on any
plea cr pretence, without the sanction of parliament, as it
was recommended by the commission, which consisted of
members of this house, appointed by the crown in the year
1831." (Cheers.)
Captain SCOUELL seconded the motion. lie was glad
of the reference ti the rght hon. gentleman the late Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, who appeared to him entitled to
such an acknowledgment for the course which he had taken
on this question. (Hear, hear.) On the occasion referred
to, the right honourable gentleman remarked that by
administrative reform he thought something
,like

1,000,0001. might be saved; and he (Capt. Scobell) believed
that a large proportion of this saving would he effected in
the department under consideration. As regarded this ex-
penditure generally, it was enough to pay that it was an
expenditure out of sight. It was not an English way of
spending money. (Hear, hear.) In private life no man
left everything to his steward ; and as guardians of the
public purse they were bound to be as careful as they were
in the management of their private effeirs. Reference Lot
been made to Dr. Bowing. Before he had a Beat iu that
hoses he had sometimes asked himself whether it were
possible that a motion like Dr. Bewriatee could he re-
jected. The subject having been found troublesome to the
government, the learned doctor was made consul; and per-
haps if the hon. member for Lambeth continued to pursue
the same course, he too would be made a consul. (Laugh.
, ter.) There was another hon. gentleman in the lonian is-
lands., where, for the reason he had just mentioned, he was
entrusted with a little kingdom of his own. Ile regretted
to see so few members present to take part in a discussi
relating to such a large expenditure of public money.
Notwithstanding the importance of the question, there
were scarcely 40 members to listen to the defile*. (Hem)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Plitt, the
duty be had to discharge on the present occasion, both ILI
regarded himself and as regarded the government, was an
extremely simple one. As regarded himself, many years
ago he expressed an opinion that the sharges connected with
the collection of the revenue, ought to be brought under
the' control of parliament. As respected the government
Units he had been in offiu he hid thought it right to in.
quire into the practicability of effecting a great change in
this matter, because he wen aware that an abstract opinion
as to the necessity of a change was of little avail, and it
had been the subject of consideration with him and his
col-
leagues. They were of opinion that effect ought to he
given to this principle, and they should not desist from their
endeavours until they had arranged the measures which
would be necessary for carrying it into effect. (I leer.) He
must at the same time state, as the hon. gentleman was pre.
trebly aware, that it was a considerable operation, and that a
great deal was to be done before a practical, clear, and
simple system of this magnitude could be established. The
hon. gentleman, he had no doubt, kuew very well that in
the first place there was a large class of charges which were
included in the gro's sums he had included in this reseln-
tion which it would be quite impossible to bring under the
control of parliament, for the simple reason Olt they did
not in any sonic constitute public income, such as drew.
hackie and sums which were liable to be repaid, which
constituted a portion of the sums which by the bon. geese.
man's resolutions they should bring into the public income,
in order that they might be discharged. Then the hex
geatleman knew perfectly well that there were may
charges imposed on the public revenue by parliament, ace
of these, not being a very extensive one, he would refer to,
and which were what were called hereditary pensions. He
did not think there would be any advantage
whatever in making these hereditary pensioes the subject
of an annual vote. The way to dial with them to nu
mind would he to make an arrangement, which ut course
must be a voluntary one, but to offer to the holders of
those pensions a reasonable commutation, and to discharge
the public income of there. (Hear, hear.) Then chute
were public services. Ile would hardly say that it was the
wisdom of parliament that imposed them, such as the
Scotch judicial establishments, which were charged on
the excise. These were arrangements of the strangest
nature, which were indefensible, and ought to ho a:tered.
Everything that properly belonged to the collection of the
public income most unquestionably ought to be
brought before the centrel of parliament, and
they should never attain a right system till those terms were
clearly fulfilled. He was not, however, so sanguine
as the hon. gentleman who spoke last, with regard to the
amount of saving to be effected by this. This explanation
he trusted would be satisfactory to the honourable member,
and he hoped that he would nut put the house to the neces-
sity of dividing.
hlr. W. WILLIAMS did not agree with the right hon.
gentleman as to the objection I:e hat made to the terms of
the resolution. lie contended, and the right hon. gen-
tleman had laid down the principle emphatically in
the quotation which he made from his Fp.t.cli, that
every item of taxation ought to be under the autho-
rity of that house, aril equally was it established that
they should look to the expenditure. The crown had
no power to put its hand into the pockets of the
people without the authority of tho other two branches of
the legislature. The crown had tie power to appoint a
whole hest of customs and excise officers without the
authority of that house, and give them what salary it
pleased. He knew for a fact that some of the ablest
officers in these departments heel been induced to resign
their situations in the prime of life to make room for others.
However, he was sure that her Majesty was the last !person
in the realm that would attempt to invade such a principle.
The right hon. gentleman had met the question, he mast
say, in a very Lair way. lie was uncommonly gratified
that he had done so in the clear and of-baud manner in
which he had just expressed himself. lie would rather
leave it in his hands, with the high opinion he lead of his
good intentions, and also of the integrity with which he
would endeavour to carry out the principle. He should,
therefore, not press the motion.
The motion was then by leave withdrawn.
KILMAINHAM HOSPITAL.

Mr. BUTT thee moved that au humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, representing to her Majesty, that in
the opinion of this house it is expedient and right to main-
tain tor the Irish soldier, in his age or infirmity, the asylum
which the Royal Hospital of King Charles the Second, fur
ancient and maimed soldiers at Kilmainham, rear Dublin,
has long afforded to those for whose benefit it was originally
instituted and endowed; that the abolition of this ancient
Irish institution would be oppoecd to the feelings of the
Irish nation, and injurious to the honour and interests of
her Majesty's service ; and praying, that her Majesty will
be graciously pleased to adopt such measures as may t her
wisdom seem expedient for removing any obstructions
which may now exist to the fulfilment of the objects fur
which this institution is established, in consequence
of any directions heretofore issued to the gover-
nors by her Majesty's Secretary at War, prohibiting
the farther admission of maimed and worn-out soldiers.
This institution, he said, was established in the reign of
Charles 11. in 1681. Certain military commanders in Ire-
land were incorporated as the governors, who were to admit
as many worn-out soldiers as they thought fit. The hos-
pital was erected by money, sixpence in the pound, stoppid
from the pay of the army, and it was also endowed with Gi
acres of land. It continued to he at, supported till 1791,
when the stoppage was discontinued. The English parlia-
ment undertook to make a grant to support Chelsea,
and the Irish parliament to make a grant to sup-
port Kilmainham. This state of things continues till
1851, when the then Secretary-at-War, Lord Panmure, then
Mr. Fox Mauls, wrote a letter en the 10th of February,
directing that no msre persons should be admitted inmates,
and since that time the inmates had of course gradually de-
clined in numbers. lie thought it was not right that
this institution should be abolished by the mere letter
of the Secretary-at-War. Altogether he did not think
that the institution really cost the country more than
5,000/. a year, and were they for that paltry saving to do an
act injurious to the military service of the crown, and offen-
sive to the army ? (Hear.) They might find it but had
economy after all to diminish the belief of the soldier in the
honour and regard of his native country. (Hear, hear)
The time might come when they might need hie strong arm
and his brave heart once more, and it would not be wise to
lemma the force of that appeal which the most illustrious
hero of our times—himself an Irishman—addressed to his
army on the field of battle, " Soldiers, what will they think
at home if we are beaten ?" (Cheers.)
Lord G. PAGET seconded the motion, and declared that
there was a strong opinion entertained in the army against
the abolition of the hospital. It was a great mistake to
suppose that soldiers, after 25 years' service, had always
families, and that an out.pension would suir them as well
as admission into the hospital. Ile had known cases in his
own regiment, where the appointment of men as in-pen-
sioners had given the liveliest satisfaction to the corps.
The chief reason given in 1833 for abolishing the institu-
tion was the want that was telt for artillery barracks in
Dublin ; but since then new and commodious barracks had
been erected ; so that there did not now remain the
shadow of an excuse for the proposal. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. FITZGERALD urged that such an establishment
as Kilmainham operated as an encouragement to men to
eater the service, for they felt that they had a home to
which they could go at the end of their service, and he
implored the house not to allow it to be put down. •
Mr. VANCE said the hospital at Kilmainham operated
as a stimulus to Irishmen to enter the army, and he en-
treated the house not to abolish it without some stronger
reasons than had yet been given.
' • •

Mr. SIDNEY -HERBERT uid that he had nothing to
complain of in the speech of the right honourable
and learned member for Youghal. But the real ques-
tion was, would the house reverse • policy which
it had three times adopted, and which had been
carried out by two governments. Ilis (Mr. Herbert's) pre-
decessor hail closed Kilmainham against any future admis-
sions. The arguments of the bon. and learned gentleman
and his hon. and gallant friend (Lord J. Paget) referred
rather to .6 plan proposed by a secretary-at-war tw. very
years ago, and which had been abandoned, than to the plan
now intended to be proposed. It was then proposed not to
close Kilmainham against all future claimants, but to divest
it at once from the purpose fur which it was instituted, and
removing the existing pensioners, either to make them out-
pensioners, or to place them in Chelsea. No such proposal
had since been made, and that was not the ques-
tion the house had now to decide, but whether,
under circumstances which he should proceed to de-
scribe, they would think it wise to re-open Kilmainham.
and put it on its former footing, and from which it had
been gradually diminished for the last twenty years.
The hon. member for Dublin had spoken strongly against
the reduction of Kilmainham. Of course when an expenditure
of 7,0001. a year was made, there very naturally arose what the
hon. and learned member for Youghal called a "strong sen-
timent" on the subject. Now although the sum in ques-
tion would be withdrawn from Dublin, yet the out-pen-
sions would be spent all over Ireland. Sir }Lowy \ ivian
had expressed an opinion that the dissolution of Kilmainhata
would ruin the recruiting in Ireland, hut Lord Anglesey
said that he could not go that length ; and there never was
a time when, notwithstanding the drain on the popu-
lation and the high rate of wages, recruiting
went on better in Ireland than nom. Ile be-
lieved that the dissolution of Kilmainham would have
no such effect, but on the contrary, It would not beto-
n:aural to suppose that the dissemination of old soldiers
over the country would be more likely to infiuneethe re-
cruiting in the agricultural districts, then having old
soldiers o)red up in Kilmainham, where they could only
be seen by the inhshitants of Dublin. He wished the Isinstss
to see why they should not disturb the arrangements winch
had been made. Though he w:loowik oilitsgae to
rleooalk at
aantbe.
question of feeling, yet he must al

Ott: service, as woU as ft the 'things in the o;)inions
etre WS NI to living with their families.
W:iIEESIDE rose, amidst loud cries of " divide,"
wissidly from his own side of the house. After alluding
ha dr overt:wee of preserving ancient institution*, he ,
said die pig as ongioally devised for the destruction of
odamaaptil, was one of nothing less than coonication. •
Is was raw Kilinaig ham was useless ; if so, eh, :sea was'
ogdess; m.:13 also be abolished. (Hear, hear.)
UMW .....;antint in favour of the scheme, was economy;
be belie". •1 it sack erinniniets were dissected, neither blood
sofbaai . would be found in them, but a considerable
itodditty ..1 red tape. (Chien and laughter.) The late mi-
;four• b.o. wi a charred wi,hearctioning this scheme ; but
they hail - • .y nhipti.t the estimates oftheir predecsmors.
I.irds: 'olol' It hoped hon. members would not be led
seat :: • talLuious arguments th gt bad been use,), bat
would et government on (hi* question. (Hear.)
Mr. ,•,I.Lit:b said that when be was Secretary at War
2,1 pear, ~ t!... suhject eras pressed on his attention. At
tut um ions I smoke's of this establishment was the
daughter of a noble lord with a 'Miry of 4901. a year,
()eard.. •) 11.. brand staff (dicers of all descriptions
masimusi tine eetehlUtymens, not adjutants
pselen fate Irish forces rieClVlag pay and euvolunonts
Out of tl. • 4.. nay vote.l for it, aad that, instead of the in.
mates • neservine old soldiers worn out and ili,abled in
,crap • at ties country. be found jobs of all kind, were
perpetret . by eologiels of 'militia end yeomanry corps in fa-
.", a P. si wnu had sever seen service abroad during their
Luc ••14 hie, ) 110 thou,;ht at the perod when be
ata, tat. . ^num. 'Waggon that the eetablishoteut was me-
ws, sad ...1 it toted, il an unnecessary exp.-eise on the
ammtly, an.l be •Inocibt so now—titter, bear)—and he
hoged.ll .1 le, that the hour. would not assent to the pee-
wit it
Col. Li .r4AI7, who spoke unlit loud and repeated calls
far a il- • ~ quoted the eviiionce of Col. 'Collie to show
that man.. t th, pinsioners in Kihusinhons would, if they
were tut . out a that establishment, become chirpeaLle
to the I -rate, as they could not possibly exist on the
tr,thoit p u..a of thriepeuee, (maw nee, or livepence a day.
Tbt ats, ut ae to the
•t expense uf Kilmainham was over.
hued, s
was to be recollected that those otßeer. who
hem alai i• that establishment were not receiving
their ha ; .y.
The I. .:ilea divided—
For , motion
Az,~, '
The at onammiment of the numbers was followed by load
chew Ii• the opsition.
DKpoUIMAL COINAGE.
dion of Mr. W. Bsowte, the following select
to take into consideration soil report to the
iiractica' ility and advantages, or otherwise, that
'ruin ad-nting a decimal system of coinage, was
-Mr. William Brown, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. John
• ALIII .1, Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. Dunlop,
o F.vster, Lord Stanley, Mr. Moody, Mr.
',lir John B-njarnin Smith, Sir William Clay,
Cliandoe, Sir William Jolleffe, and Mr.

Oa th
atandat,
bow tt
foil! or
appw.t.
m.
the bl
Kinaair.

Mr. 11
forred to

RYE ELECTION.
LEIS atoned that both the Rye petitions be re-
o., committee on the Rye elseion to be inquired
retd to.
MALDON.

Lord It. GROSVENOR moved that no writ be issued
for tilt 1 .•IPlldh of Mahlon before the let day of May next.
REC.: L.t'l lON OF ROUSES OF EN fEitTAINMENT.
Mr. ‘V BROWN moved for the appointment of a select
commit*, to examine into the system under which public
bosses, hotels, beer shops, dancing saloons, coffee houses,
thesgasa, tensper.ince hutch, and plates of public entertain-
ment, by w tesiever name they might be called, were sane-
tweed, Rini were now regulated, with a view of reporting
to this 1,w., wilethi.r soy alteration or amendment of the
law cuuld he ro.ide for the better preservation of public
morale, t'.e protection of the revenue, and for the proper
acenmn.o.latiou of the public, with power to send for per-
sons, p Jr.,e and records, so far as they might deem it
necesssr.—Avreed to.