The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-20 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 20, 1553.

Charles Barry way allowed to ice on apeotbug money, ao oue
knew how ? %Vas there any control over him ?
Mr WILSON wee afraid there was very little;. bat
better care would be taken in future.

The vote was then agreed to.
On filament vote, 111.100/. for the Stationery-office,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS Inquired whether that sum would
be sufficient-to complete the office. He would take that
opportunity of saying that the stationery supplied to the
house was of the worst possible kind. As to the pens, he
was obliged to bring his own.
Mr. WILSON said this vote did not apply to the pens,
but to the Stationery-office. lie was bound to say that the
sum in question would not be sufficient to finish the office,
as it was intended to make such en enlargement as would
enable a number of government books and records to bo
kept in that office which were now kept in buildings for
which a large rental was now paid ; so that, although pro-
bably 10,0001. more would be required, there would be an
eventual saving.
The vote was agreed to.
HOLYHEAD HARBOUR.
On the next vote, 91,27 W. fur Holyhead harbour,
Mr. THORNELY said that this was the 7th year in
which there had been a vote for the improvement of Holy-
head harbour. The original estimate was 628,0001. Would
that cover the whole of the expenditure ?
Mr. WILSON, with regard to a work of such magni-
tude, could not say that the estimate in question would
cover the expense.
Colonel DUNNE was sure the estimate would not nearly
cover the expense. It was supposed bt• some persona that
Holyhead would not answer as a harbour of refuge, and
that the origical plan had been deviated from. It was a
subject very interesting to Irishmen, and he should be glad
to know whether the proposed estimate would be sufficient
fur the whole expense, and whether the plan was likely to
answer.

Sir J. GRAHAM mid his attention bad been only re-
cently called to the subject. When he came into office. the
control of harbours of refuge was in a somewhat anomalous
position. The Admiralty was nut answerable for the works
which were under the control of the Treasury, although
they were answerable for the expenditure. Re believed
that the estimate for Holyhead harbour would be sufficient
to defray the cost. lie said that with confidence, as the
works were under the directiln of Mr. Bendel, and reli-
ance was to be placed on bis estimate. Ile was told by all
who saw the works that they were executed in the best
possible manner ; that the plan was succenful, and that it
would be a harbour of great use in the Channel commu-
nication between Great Britain and Ireland.
In answer to Mr. Iluex

Sir J. GRAHAM said, the subject of harbours of refuge
had been too tug neglected in this country, considering our
maritime position. He was astonished that it did not
attract the notice of parliament sooner. With regard to
that part of the coast to which the hon. gentleman referred,
It should be remembered that at Ifolyhead, and Portland,
and Dover, works were going on still requiring considerable
additions Of money. When thous works were finished they
might commence others.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS had heard with great gratification
the statements of the right hon. baronet, that these works
would be completed within the estimated expense. When
they were commenced there was a great difference of opi-
nion among the engineers as to the expense, and some of
the most eminent made estimates, the lowest of which was
upwards of a million.
The vote was then agreed to.
The:nezt vote was 226,0001. on account it the expense of
constructing certain harbours of refuge.
Mr. THORNELY remarked that a note was appended
in the estimates stating that the particulars of the expendi-
tore for each harbour, accompanied by reports of the
engineers in charge of the works for the year to 31st March,
will be found in a return to be presented to the House of
Commons as a separate paper in the present session. He
thought they ought to have these particulars before they
gave the vote, and not afterward..
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said be saw the amount for Dover
harbour was only 31,000/. Ile asked whether there was to
be any further estimate for Dover harbour.
Sir J. GRAHAM replied that the plan respecting Dover
harbour bad been recently under revision. 34,0001. would
complete the work as far as the present contract went, but
to render the works really effectual it would be necessary
to prolong them to a considerable extent. It was now pro-
rued, after the 34,0001. was expended, so far as the con-
tract went, to carry the works 800 feet further into deep
water. Of course, as they went into deeper water, the ex-
pense would be greater, but it was not intended in the pre-
sent year to go further than the 34,0001.
Colonel DUNNE asked what was doing in reference to
the Channel Islands 1

Sir J. GRAHAM said there were two works in progress
in the Channel Islands. For five or six years works bad
been going on at Jersey, which it was not intended to
carry much further than the existing contracts. The other
is a very important work in the island of Alderney. It had
not advanced to a considerable extent yet, because it was
carried on in deep water. It was the intention of govern-
ment to proceed with that work.
Mr. A. PELLATT asked in what time the works at Al-
derney would be completed, and what would be the
expense ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said it was impossible to work seven
months out of the twelve. It would, perhaps, take seven
years, and the estimated expense was about 600,0001.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next Tote was 2,6661. for works at Portpatrick
Harbour.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS whaled to know when the works at
this harbour were to be fiuished ? An assurance was given
some years ago that it should not appear in the estimates
again.
Sir J. GRAHAM said it was much to be regretted that
such • sum should be expended on: such an assurance.
The hon. gentleman was right in stating that an assurance
had been given that this harbour should not again appear
in the estimates, but • storm had demolished a portion of
the works and it was thought necessary to replace them.
Since the estimate was presented a fresh survey had been
made, end the amount reduced by 1,0001.
Col. BLAIR said there was a probability of a railway
being made from Dumfries to Portpatriek which would
render the harbaur more useful.

M►. FREWEN observed that be did not keow why
imooey should be laid out on this harbour more than
another.

Sir J. GRAHAM said as the hon. and gallant officer had
stated it was hoped that the railway between Dumfries and
Portpatriek would be continued. At all events 100,0001.
having been expended on the harbour, he tkought it would
be bed economy not to spend 2,000 L. to repair the breath
caused by the storm.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was 45,6001. for public buildings in
Ireland. _ _ _ _

Mr. SPOONER moved that the vote be reduced by
1,2351. 13e. for repairs of St. Patrick's College, Maynooth.
He should not detain the committee at any length, but he
had not changed his mind upon the questioa. The hens*
had rejected his proposition and he should not now enter
late** principle. Although he objected now on pen-
ramp pencils he still maintained his objection as to the
goliolple. He said that a protestant country ought not to
=popery in any way. In 1845. parliament voted
for building a new college, and passed an act to
doom the consolidated fund with near 30,0001. a year for
maintenance. Under these circumstances he thought there
meal not to be a further charge for repairs. In 1851, the
Ms of 1,236/. was voted for repairs. He opposed it, and
newts was only carried by a majority of 2. That mom-
mei him to cones the vote now.
11r. W. WILLIAMS mid when Sir Robert Peel intro-
losall the bill of 1846 for granting 30,0001. (or the enlie-
MOM of thisediegn and near 30.0001. a year for the mmaaiin
WON, of Sir Robert Peel gave a distinct mur-
al* that es farther sums would be asked for yearly. On
MM ireuscl he should vote for the amendment.
Ilk J. GRAHAM said at the time referred to he had the
been of being perfectly cognisant of what the intentions
el the government were, and his recollection of what m-
aned is the house entirely differed from that of the hoe.
gentleman. The hoe. member for Birmingham said this
was • aew building. On the contrary, it was a very old
WNW& Parliament gave 30,0001. for its restoration, and
he Wm& every tuning was expended on its repel; mad
enlargement. The question came before the government
of Sir inert Peel, whether the annual sum should be
the
repairs of the building, or whether
=the ebsiiMl be paid out of the consolidated fund so
OillOsover the anon repairs, and it was decided by the
genetement that IRO establishment, so endowed by pa:lir
gaseM, should be biseght under the notice of parliament
when expedition for repairs was required. The sum
plead on the eemdlelated fund did not cover repairs; but
time bad been t from time to time before the house
as a distimet . The amount required for this
pewee ltett everepoi about 1,2001. a year; but the sum
tranemdtted for am last year not having been
beseght natter the fella of parliament, the vote on the
eerie. aseinerily more than usual. Using
rerressi yes
meeldenil deeleable to starve out the college by raw
anti* it metabitbllellie, ea outlay such as was now proposed
was nedutely eisernmey. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. PELLA= alseiald vote for Mr. Spooner'; mo-
tion, bat an the ems& that he objected to all religious en-1
dowsing@ voleiseim Weer, hear.) lie had visited May.
nooth, eel WA Arai Set both the old and the new build-
ings were bye up i and that no fewer than 400 student;
were goolmooMilated in them—a number far too large, be
theoghloterim market. (Hear, hear.) Ile wished to
brew ea this motion would preclude his
eiteeiquellser :It any other part of the vote, because
be 1111mMe premed charge of 6,7901. lis. for Phenix
Push, beim, gardens, demesnes, plantations, Re., was a
ingegalie expenditure : and he should like to know whe-
ther than were no items of receipt from the sale of grass or
timbre.

Mr. BOUVERIE replied that the hon. gentleman would
sot be prevented from pellimg eenstions on that subject.
Mr. CORRY said the eldest of Sir R. Peel in intro-
ducing the Mayaooth Rudownsaat Act was to avoid the
annual recurrence of irritating dissussions on this subject ;
but that object would be quite defeated by a vote of this
nature. He had referred to the speech of the lets right
hon. gentleman in 160, and ha found that he (Sir R. Peel)
►ad declared that the annual charge of the establishment
would be 26,360/. ; and t►erefore in thing the endowment
at 30,0001, he bad left a sum of nearly 3,600/. available for
repairs. (Hear, hear.) He should vote in (avatar of Mr.
Bpooner's emotion.
Mr. MIALL would take the same course, because be
should have opposed say similar vote, whatever the religi-
ous body might be that was to have been benefited by it.
Oa. ebaraeteristlo all these ecclesiastical items appeared to
possess incarnates, namely, that when once put in the esti-
mates they remained there until the house thrust them
out. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. 8. HERBERT, in answer to Mr. Corry, read ano-
lku passage from Sir R. Peas speech is 1846, in which

that Ate right hon. gentleman distinctly annotated that
the vote fur rerairs would be taken annually. (Mar )
Sir W. VERNER thought the house ought to appoint
a committee to inquire into the oaths taken by Roman
catholic priests. They were oaths of allegiance not to the
Queen, but to the P.m*, and were, in short, identical with
the Ribbon Societies' oaths, for taking which a person
might be transported.
Sir J. WALMSLEY was apposed to all ecclesiastical
endowments, but he must say that, to begin by objecting to
a small sum like this, would be very like straining at a
gnat and swallowing a camel. (Hear, hear.) When the
house was prepared to do justice to all classes, he should
be glad to support such a proposition, but in the mean time
he should vote against the amendment. (Chasm.)
Mr. LUCAS was quite prepared to vote against all en-
dowments whatever—(hear. hear)—but he wished to drew
attention to the fact that in this very vote there were
several other items of a similar character. There were
SUMS of 381. fur repairs of the chaplain's house at Dublin
Castle, and 391. far, furniture; 901. for repairs of the chapel
royal, and apartments in the basement; and furniture,
611. Os. Bd. ; Irishtown Church 241. 16s. repairs, and 131. 4a.
furniture; the chaplain's apartment at Kilmaleham Hospital
4/. repairs; the chapel 1171. repai•s, and 181. 10s. furni
tore ; Royal Hibernian Military School Protestant
Chapel SI. repairs, Roman Catholic 441. 10s. repair., and
V. for furniture. If the amendment was so framed as
to leave out all these items he should not object, but as the
motion stood it was on the faco of it a gross act of in-
justice. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. HAI)FIELD hoped the hon. member for Meath
(Mr. Lucas) would himself move the addition of the items
he had mentioned. Personally there was nothing that he
(Mr. Hadfield) would so strongly oppose as the endowment
of the denomination to which he himself belonged. Indeed
they bad struggled against the Regime Doman, and they
had at last got rid of It, so that they came there now with
clean hands. (Hear.) If the representation were only in
the hands of the people, they would have none of these
baneful dive?ssirs about religious endowment. (Hear.)

Sir J. SHELLEY supported the amendment on the
broad ground of opposition to religions endowment of eve• y
kind out of the public purse. He was surprised that the
Hawn catholic', considering their numbers and power,
should come there fear after year asking for n paltry
1,2001. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. LUCAS, in reply to the appeal which had been
made to him, had only to observe that the hon. member
for Mayo bad given notice of a motion which was to come
on upon the 31st of this month, for a select committee to
inquire into the whole question of religious equality in Ire-
land ; and it was on that account that he objected to
nibbling motions like these. With respect to the statement
of the hon. member opposite (Mr. Hadfield), he bad only
to say that he bad received a circular begging of him, in
pathetic terms, to support the Irish Reginns Dolma, on the
ground that its recipients professed the evangelical doc-
trines of the Westminster Confession, and because they
hoped that he was an enlightened supporter of the protes-
tant interests. (Laughter.)
Mr. W. J. FOX said the bon. gentleman had confounded
the nonconformists of England with the presbyterians
had s..

of Ireland. The former, titer a long struggle, _ suc-
ceeded in procuring the withdrawal of the English Regium
Damns. Ile considered that be had a perfect right to fight
the questicn of state endowment in detail aa well as in the
aggregate ; and, therefore, he should support the amend-
ment.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS begged to move that the items for
Irishtown Church and Dublin Cutle, amounting to 2,561. 66.,
be added to the amendment.

The committee then divided :
For Mr. Williams's amendment 43
Against it
On our re-admission to the gallery,
Lord J. RUSSELL was addressing the committee.
Owing to the absurd system which prevails of excluding
reporters during divisions, and the delay consequent on
their re-admission, the early part of his lordship's addre.s was
lost. He said that what the hon. gentleman (Mr. Spooner)
proposed was merely that the doors and windows of the
buildinfr should not be repaired, that the roof should net be
made atr-tight, and such matters, which certainly did not
appear of any great importance. But he wished some
members of the committee to consider, after having
voted by a majority against the proposal of Mr. Wil-
liams, what the proposition now was. Before the
last division, it was a question how far that division might
be taken as a test of the opinion of many members of that
house against say grant of public money for religious
en-
dowments. (Hear, hear.) The committee had refused to
'Arm that principle, and had given a vote favourable to
religious endowments. (Hear, hear.) Now it was pro-
posed to single out one of those endowments, and that one
belonging to a religious communion in Ireland which re-
ceived the least of public support, and it was proposed to
deprive them of any grant of public money. (Hear, hear.)
The committee would therefore see that the question now
was totally altered. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. MIALL said the question appeared to be altered by
the vote just given only so far es this: in the first instance
they had several interests cnmbining together to carry a
vote • now they bad only one interest to contend with. As
they had not been able to carry the principle as a whole,
he advised them to try and carry it by detail. (Cheers.)
Mr. SPOONER said he certainly would not vote against
all religious endowments. Previous to the division he had
twiee asked for an explanation of what they were voting on,
and could not get it ; and he declared positively that when
the question was put he knew nothing • hatever what they
were voting on. (Great laughter) He had asked for an
explanation and could get none ; he therefore voted against
the amendment. ("Hear, hear," and cries of " Divide.")

Sir J. Y. SHELLEY said the committee were not placed
in any awkward position at all by the late divide'', They
were now going to vote on the proposal of Mr. Spooner
exactly as they would have done if they had not voted on
that of Mr. Williams.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that Mr. Williams's proposal
was that all religiods denominations should be deprived of
endowments, and he was glad the committee had decided
against it. (Rear, hear.) Now they were about to vote on
only one of those endowments. (Rear, hear.)
The committee then divided on Mr. Spooaer's amend-
ment. The numbers were :
For the amendment
_

Against it
The Tote, thus reduced by 1,2351., was then agreed to,
ea were the following votes :
11,6451. for Kingstown Harbour.
91,1001., salaries and expenses, and allowances to retired
effic.rs, of the two houses et parliament.
54,0001, salaries and expenses of the tressury.
27,100/., ditto of the office of Secret iry fir the Home De-
partment.
69,4001., ditto of the office of Secretary for Foreign
Affairs.

-39,1751, ditto of the office of Secretary for War and
Colonies.

71.60 W., ditto of the Privy Council, and of the Commit-
tee of Privy Council for Trade, &c.
2,7001., estahli•hment of the Lord Privy Seal.
23,70 W., salaries and expenses of the department of Pay-
master-General.

6,3961., department of the Comptroller-General of the
Exchequer.
17,2821., saluies and expenses of the office of Commission-
ers of Works and Public Buildings.
22,3291., salaries and expenses of the office of Woods,
Forests: and Land Revenues. _ _

2,7771., do. of the State Paper Office.
3,3681., a portion of the expenses of the Ecclesiastical
omrnissioners for Ragland.
On this latter vote.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he should take the sense of
the oommittee against the payment of this sum out of the
public taxes to the Beclestastical Commissioners. As the
payment was szelnainly for the utsuagement of church
property, it ought totems out of that property.
The committee divided :

For the vote 63
Against it
The next vote was-
-214,4941., expenses of the Poor Law Commissioners.
In answer to Mr. WISB,
Mr. BAINES stated that, of this vote 8,3761. was for
travelling and incidental expenses of the inspectors.
The vote wss then agreed to, as were the following:
49,6311., expenditure of the mint.
12,2701., salaries and expenses connected with the public
records.

15,0501., inspectors and sub-inspectors of factories,
mines, Re.
1,7001., salaries of certain officers in.Sootland, and other
charges.
On this vote,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he observed it comprised items
of 2171. for Queen's plates ; but as the amount was so smaU,
he would not divide against it.
Mr. KINNAIRD asked if there was any prospect of these
items disappearing from the votes.
Mr. WISE considered it a waste of public money.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he had objected to these plates for
several years ; but as the amount for Scotland was so small
he would take the division on the next item, that for Ire-
land, and would combine some other items with it.
Mr. A. PELLATT said it would be very inconsistent
with principle—if there was any principle in it—not to take
the division forthwith. It would be unjust that Scotland
should receive these gratuities and Ireland be deprived
of them.
Sir J. SHELLEY hoped the hen. member would not
divide against this item. Something more was to be said in
its favour than as regarded the improvement of the breed,
of horses. No public amusement afforded so much petit,'
cation to the people as racing. (Hear, hear.) It was true
there were mischiefs attached to it, but those who would
gamble there would gamble elsewhere. (Hear, hear.) He
hoped they would not bring their economy od absurdam.
It was now-a-days the professed object in all quarters to
give amusement to the working classes ; and he hoped the
Lon. member would not press his opposition.
Mr. PELLATT was wilting to allow the vote to pass if
Mr. Williams would do the same with regard to the vote for
Queen's Plates in Ireland.
Mr. ANDERSON said the people of Scotland did not
care about races at all.
Mr. BUCK supported the vote.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that a large amount was sub-
scribed by her Majesty to rates out of her private purse,
and she bad a perfect right to do so ; but that house had
no right to •Jte money for racing either in Scotland or
Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Let those who liked racing defray
the cost.— - . .

I'ELLATT said he would move that the vote be
1,4821. 75., instead of 1,7001.
The gallery was cleared for a division but none took
place, and the vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 6,4241 for the household expenses of the
Lord-Lieutenant,

Sir J. SIIELI.EY wished to know whether say plan bad

wou:d

hevn under the eoueideretion of the government iar the
ebAition of the olEcte of Lvrd-Lieutenant, which was u ultra
show and tsehle.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was not able to state whether any plan hest been formal),
brought under the consideration of the government kr the
ab.lition of the Lord-Lieutenancy.
Colonel 1)i: NNE thought the answer of the right hon.
gentleman very unsatisfactory. Whatever might to the
opinion of the hon. baronet on this subject, the people of
Ireland were unanimous in wishing for its continuance.
(Hear, hear.) The government were well enough disposed
to impose additional taxation on Ir. lam% but when they
were asked whether it was proposed to deprive her at the
money that was spent by the vice-regal establishment, the
right bon. gentleman did not give a frank denial, but on
the contrary, an evasive and unsatisfactory answer. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he di
not know how he failed in point of frankness ; and if the
hon. and gallant colonel put to him a more distinct ques-
tion he would endeavour to improve in his answer. (" neer,
hear," and laughter.) He gave the beet answer in his
power to the question which had been put to him in the
absence of the right hon. gentlemen the Secretary for Ire-
land and the Secretary of Stice for the Hume Department,
in whose department it more properly lay to give au ILIIIIACT
to the question.
Colonel DU NNE would ask, then, whether the right hon.
gentleman was aware of any intention on the part of the
government to abolish the Lord Lieutenancy ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware of any intention. (.. Hear, hear," and a laugh.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS was surprised that any Irishman
attached importance to the keeping up of this mock-royalty
in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) How much better would it not
be to have the Queen visit Ireland every year. (Hear,
hear.) There was included in this vote a sum of
1811. 12s. 81. for the chaplain to the Lord-Lieutenant,
and 1,8741. 64. 2d. for Queen's plates to be run for
in Ireland. Now, as he thought that the salary of the
chaplain ought to be defrayed from the 20,0001. a year
Which the Lord Lieutenant received, and if persons desired
to encourage racing in Ireland this should be done at their
own expense, and not out of the public taxes. (Hear,
hear.) Ho should therefore move that the vote be reduced
by 1,7581. 18.. 10d.
Mr. O'CONNOR HENCHY said that the people of Ire-
land looked upon the vote as one of considerable import-
ance as encouraging the treed of horses, and his consti-
tuents would feel its withdrawal very seriously indeed.
Mr. A. WISE would support the amendment on the
ground that horse racing ought to be upheld by the persons
who enjoyed ir, and not out of the public taxes.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR hoped the hon. member for Lam-
beth would nut divide on the present vote, as the committee
had not divided on the similar vote fur Scotland. Ile
thought the time for making the proposition was ill-selected,
as Ireland was but just recovering from a heavy blow in-
flicted by Providence. (Laughter.)
Mr. A. PELLATT sag: that it was owning to his inex-
perience of the forms of the house, that he had not divided
the committee on the previous vote.

The committee then divided—
Fur Mr. Williams' amendment 3l

Against
The vote was then agreed to.
The vote of 17,1341. for the office of Chief Secretary in
Ireland was agreed to.
7.4721. 3s. 7d. for the office of Paymaster of Civil Services
in Ireland was agreed to.
Oa the vote of 30,1531. for the office of Public Works in
Ireland,
Col. DUNNE called the attention of the committee to
the expenditure for drainage WOlllll, and complained that
the expenditure for these works bad so far exceeded the
estimates, as to be more, in many case!, than the value of
the land. It was a great hardship on the proprietors of
Ireland to be called on to pay for such au excessive outlay.
Ile would mention in particular the cases of Ardea and
Brume. The mischief arose entirely from the circumstance
of tke works being placed under the management of a name-
ies‘ individual at the Treasury.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could as•
sure the hon. and gallant gentleman that tho subject had
not escaped the attention of the government, and that they
were only waiting until the preparation of remedial mea-
sures was matured.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 32,000/. for foreign and other secret ser-
vice—

Mr. A. WISE asked (or explanation.
Mr. R. WILLIAMS said—Having opposed this vote for
many years, he was glad to perceive a diminution in the
amount. (Rear, hear.) He hoped next year to be able
to congratulate the house on a still further reduction.
Lord D. STUART said this vote was regarded with the
greatest suspicion out of doors, and the dislike to it must
have been increased be some recent revelations with regard
to secret services performed is relation to particular indi-
viduals. lie w .uld not formally oppose it, but he thought
the committee should have ss much information as pos-
sible. (Laughter.)
Mr. A. PELLATT wished to know whether any part of
the money was applied in supporting the metropolitan de-
tective police.
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the police of tho metro-
polis received nothing out of this secret fund.
The vote was then agreed to.
216,4301. was voted for printing and stationery; and
16,0001. to defray the law charges in the offices of the
Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General.
On the vote of 17,7001. for the sheriff's expenses and
offices at the Court of Exchequer,
Mr. A. WISE expressed his astonishment, and wished to
know how the money was to be applied /
Mr. J. WILSON was unable to answer the question, but
wou:d make inq • •
Lord D. STUART thought that when the government
could give no information, votes ought to be postponed.
(Rear, hear )
Mr. M. CIiA.MBERS said as a young member of the
house he should certainly like to have some information
with regard to this large item of expenditure.
Lord J. RUSSELL, who spoke in a very low tone, was
understood to say that this vote was made up of sums paid
to the sheriffs on account of charges which they could not
be expected to defray themselves.
The vote was then agreed to.
Ou the vote of 8,8301. for the salaries and expenses of the
commissioners of the Insolvent Courts,
Mr. A. PELLATT wished to know whether the govern-
ment were aware that a considerable saving might be
effected by transferring the business of the Insolvent Courts
either to the Courts of Bankruptcy or to the County Courts,
E. to both.

Lord J. RUSSELL thought the question was one which
could hardly be dealt with on the estimates.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the duties performed by the
commissioner of the Insolvent Courts were exceedingly
light; and as the salaries of the County Court judges had
been increased, and as the time of roma of them was not
fully occupied, he did not see how kthe transfer suggested
could be objected to.
Mr. J. WILSON said the hon. gentleman was quite mis-
taken in supposing that the duties of the county court
judges were light. It had recently been found nett rosary to
provide additional accommodation on account of the increase
of business.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said if the hon. gentleman referred
to the returns he would find that even in the county courts
of the metropolis there was a goad deal of time unoccupied.
Mr. FITZROY said the hon. gentleman was not aware,
perhaps, that in the country a great deal of the insolvent
business was done in the county courts. (" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Williams.)
Mr. A. RELLATT wished to know whether any reduc-
tion of exprnse was contemplated.
Mr. J. WILSON believed not.

The vot• Was then agreed to.
107,4031. was voted for the law expenses in Scotland.
On the vote of 66,9301. for the expense of criminal prose-
cutions and other law charges in Ireland,
Colonel DUNNE said that as Ireland wan now to be
placed on an equality with England as regarded taxation,
she ought to be so with respect to prosecutions. The dif-
ferent wises should be placed on the same footing as those
of England.
Mr. M'MAIION complained that in Ireland, in cases of
murder and homicide, the relatives of the party killed were
obliged, contrary to the practice in England, to accept as
their counsel • nominee of the Irish Attorney-General,
and that the appointment of incompetent counsel to con-
duct the prosecution often led to the failure of justice.
Sir J. YOUNG in answer to Mr. M'Mshon, declined to
alter the mode of carrying on crown prosecutions in Ireland.
In his opinion the present system had worked exceedingly
well. In answer to Colonel Dunne he admitted that the
present mode of assessing county rate in Ireland was defec-
tive, and recommended that the attention of Irish gentle-
men should be directed to the subject.
Mr. F. SCULLY thought that if the present system
were retained a more efficient body of crown prosecutors
should be selected.

56,.5001. for lij)iin police.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote, being a charge on
the Consolidated Fund.

Vote agreed to.
240,0001. prosecutions at Assizes and Sessions formerly
paid out of the county rates. Agreed te.
16,839/. general superintendence of prisons, United
Kingdom.
Mr. LUCAS wished this vote to be postponed. His ob-
ject was to bring the prison regulations with respect to
chaplains generally under the consideration of the house.:
Sir DE L. RVANS suggested that as the Hack-
ney Carriages Bill was on the paper the chairman should
now report progress.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the early despatch of the
first orders hail enabled the house to get into supply
sooner than was expected. He hoped the h,.use would go
on regularly with the votes, and get on as far with them as
possible.
The vote was agreed to.
Mr. LUCAS suggested that they should now report
progress.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the hon. member would not
press his mixion.
407,7671. for prisons.
Mr. LUCAS moved that the chairman report progress.

Lord J. RUSSELL appealed to the committee to reject
the motion. If the bon. member had objections to make to
any particular vote, the committee would hear them then.
Mr. LUCAS objected that in this vote there was not a
single sixpence asked for catholic chaplains in Eng-
land or Scotland, wh in Ireland the difference in reli-
gion of criminals was recognised and provided for.
Mr. V. SMITH thought the hon. member's proposition a
most unreasonable one at that hour of the night (eleven
o'clock), but if he wan obstinately determined on his motion
his hon. friend would facilitate business by passing over
this vote and proceed to the others. There was one subject
in connexion with this vote upon which some explanation
would doubtless be given by the noble lord, the Home

Bceretury, neon ly. transient ition. ent7tT577,7.,.:771
present estimates under tist heed. Ile w.s out seera the.
the system of transportation had clan, d, but et all es( me
they sere entitled to tome explanation as to the iiieri-aie
is
the :liar, e, and as to the seconder, punisloneut thst wy
to be substituted for traneportation.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no thjeetion to the course Ids
right hon. friend suegested, if the L:u. geutletnan upp,,jte
persisted in his of jection. With regard to the important
subject which his ught hon. friend had mentioned. it w.e
undoubtedly desirable that on some early occasion the views
of the government should be stated to the house. It would
be necessary before long to introduce a billet% the su,ojeet,
and on that ucc.sion, or on a set. quent d:scusoion of tins
vote, his noble friend (Lord Palmerston), would state whet
those views were. lie would withdraw this vote lot the
present.
Mr. LLTAS withdrew his motion for reporting prow.;
and the vote was postponed.
The following votes were agreed to :
160,4661., for the m eintenunce of prisoners in aunty
gaols, be philanthropic institutions, lunatie asylum..
69,5..61., for expenses counected with the ttatsportdien
of convicts.
244,0541, for convict establishments in the co:oeii s.
2110,0001, fur public education in Great Critsiat.
182,073 t., fur national education in Ireland.
41.476/., for the Departments of Science and Art mid of
the geological survey of Great Britain and Ireland, and
6,340/., for the Royal Dublin Society.
2,0061, for professors at Oxfurd and Cambridge, wa: next
proposed.
Mr. WILLIAMS considered it discreditable for the Uni-
versities to come every year to the pubiic taxes of the e.ui.
try for the salaries of their prof. %Dors. The reveller e: the
colleges of one of these universities amounted to lioe,etiot,
and the other to 183,0001. a year, and surely they could .iford
to pay this charge. lie should take a division against the
vote.
Mr. HADFIELD opposed the vote.
. . . .

Mr. BLACKETT wished to put a question to the noble
lord (Lord J. Russell) upon a subject of some importance
in connexion with the Universities of Oxfurd and C
ass
bridge. Some time ago, in speaking of the improvements
which he said ought to be introduced into these institevions,
the noble lord said he should be toth to invite the a•sistar.ce
of parliament to carry out such improvements, Ind. so the
Universities evinced an unwillinpiess to take ceps to in-
troduce them themselves, and he intimated two or three
years as the period, at the expiration of which, if the Cut.
versities did not take those steps, the government would
interfere. That statement was extremely vague, and he
hoped the noble lord would fix some more definite period,
that the Universities might have fair notice of when the
government would interpose it they did not carry not the
necessary improvements?
Lord J. RUSSELL—In reference to the vote under dis-
cussion, had stated on several previous occasions that the
universities felt aggrieved at some of the stamp dud sto
which they were subjected, and especially to the stem:, re-
quired on taking degrees. and that they considered that
they were more burdened by those taxes than beneli.ed by
this vote. But the whole of these questions would be Con.
sidered by the government, and if any arrangement could
be come to by w hich it would be unnecessary to ask for this
vote in future he should be glad. (Hear.) With mind
to the question which the other hon. gentleman (Mr. She-
kett) had put to him he (Lord J. Russell) did not think he
stated when he referred to the subject before that in one
or two, or in two or three years government would censider
themselves free to propose a measure for improving the uni-
versities if nothing was done in the meanwhile by those
establishments themselves. What he tail was, that be did
not think it expedient to propose any such measure during
the present session, but beyond that he did nut consider the
government bound.
Sir It. INGLIS contended that these professorships,
which were formerly maintained by the crown, were paid
by parliament under a distinct understanding made when
the civil list was fixed.
Sir DE L. EVANS thought as the universities of Oxford
and Cambridge were largely endowed, they ought not to
come to parliament to defray these charges.
Mr. A. PELLATT opposed the vote.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAM 3 and Mr. 11.
DieuxmoND,
:sir. DRUMMOND—The property of the crown was
pledged to this grant, and you took the property of the
crown with all its incumbrances, and now you refuse to
pay those incumbrauces, though you prutiten large :y by
your bargain.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not press his amendment to a divi-
sion, aid the vote was agreed to.
The following votes were agreed to:-
3,9551., for the University of London.
8,0291, for Universities in Scotland.
3001., for the Royal Irish Academy.
3001., for the Royal Hibernian Academy.
On the next vote of 2,7501., fur theological professors at
Belfast,

Mr. MIALL raid be understood this vote was for the
support of religious teaching ■t Belfast. Many members
had objected that evening to a similar vote for Mnynooth,
on the principle that no public money should be given to
any religious teaching, and inconsistency with that principle
he should divide the house against the vute.
Sir R. INGLIS explained, that he only voted against
the grant to Maynooth on the ground that the teaching
there was of that which he disapproved, but he had not
the same objection to other votes for religions teaching.
Mr. A. PELLATT did not oppose this vote on religions
grounds, but on the principle that there should be no en.
dowments by the state for religious teaching.
The committee divided,
For the vote

Against
The fullowisg votes were then agreed to :
1,681/. for the Queen's University in Ireland.
22,7101. for the British Museum (New Buildingo.
1,500/. British Museum (Purchases).
4,263/. fur the National Gallery.
2,200/. for Scientific Works and Experiments and obatr
vations.

The Chairman then reported progress, and the home re-
sumed.