The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

IRISH RAILWAY SHAREHOLDERS.

- ........
Lord ifitol.VH.4lll,on mowing fur the 'shove return+,
took notation to say that his Object. wit, not one of mere idle
curiosity, but as it appeared that tht re was some intention
of assimilating Ir. herd with England, it was but right that
this informatieu Ao.la he given in order that they might
know how to legislate. Ile desired this the more as he
found that a statement had been made lan night in another
place the object, the express object, of which wart to raise
the price of railway shares by distributing money through-
oat the country, s • that there shores whirls stood at 1001.
might be raised t .2001. lie was charged with n desire to make
bread dear by induerng the formers to lief p their corn hack un-
til they could have a good price for it. He had no such desire.
If the fanners kept. :heir eorn hark a day longer than they
ought, they would refire maternally fur so doing. These
were not the times to be misrepresented to as to lead
people to believe that one was cruel and hard-hearted.
The stetament which le made was, that if there were no
scarcity they would ret7 soon come to the market, and if
I there were, the very hcet thing that could hale en was that
it should be sold deg-. If there existed a 'a r,ity at the
present mime:A, ant the jrices were los., y would
have no fond in May or June, for though their lordships
might come to a private agreement to commute only acme=
quantity, the whole cdnenunity could have entered into
no agreement which would prevent dearth from being a
scarcity, and a cr.:amity hem being an actual famine. If they
ate all' now they would h .tt nothing in a couple of months.
That w.un ill that Ire Lad *aid, and a more seteevident pro-
, position could not bs. :The charge against him was toot he
o on:our:wed conseastont end ferment in keepiue eons front
the market, and it woe said that they should be romp:lied to
bring it in for sale. Th. y had no inure right to compel the
farmer to a.ll his corn, than two labourers hod to torn too
of their lordships rot of the house out take their seats.
The only ditfereme wee, that the 1 liter would lie lee, in-
jurious. (I, 'eaten.)
Lord STANLEY entirely eeneurred with the noble lord
who had just sat down in the ob.ervation which he merle
that this was the time above all others, when public
men ought not to be atihireted to misnepresentatians with
respect their particularly when they had regard
to the teller of dines,. It was hi. concurrence in thin 'relief
that led him to Mee notiee of an observatiou which was
mede by the ieible lord, with regent to the ierentiens of
tie :e who bed brought fere anl a measure which an. not
now before their lordships, hut which, as the whir lord had
stated, was igtredneed inns the other house of pariiarnent.
' Ile stated that the iaterr•i. .s 01 his limb's, fri. nil who intro-
dated the bill was, and the caret would be, to raise the price
of railway *hares, iu ostler to main a profit. and that the ob-
ject was to arlian'netir railway proprietors by enabling
there to sell shares which they hail riot. Ile c odd not
po-sibly, from whnt had fallen from him, hove beard
the statements delittred ley hi+ noble friend in the ether
hoe, of parliament. lie sins equally convinced that the
noble lord could no: Lacy reed tie Li. for it he bid he was
quite owe Diet his monanataili :restos: railways would not
hare led him to mi take the th!ect of the measure which,
whatever other obiesetions there MAT be to it, Was introduced
with a Ebeling which iorntremilen the attention and admira-
tion of ell parties, stet he reit ruisuied would summand the
aperoyal mid admiration of the greater portion rd the e: m-
tensity of th-e coraVry. Ha was not now going to enter
into. online:tenants ter the riteasure, tut the than would come
when it w old be arced bore, unless prevented by the inter-
position of the pre rogue, eof the crown. But the object was
not to raise the prier of shalt s ur to facilitate the tale of them.
The ohject was to interpose the credit of this country without
the les of a single slit:Hag of the taxation of the people of
this country, fur !tediettine improvement in a o.uertry
whit h alone all others was most in want Os imeiroveny r..,
and fur carryirg oil works .1 resit public utility which,
oithout the abs Of the .t,tv, would be put a stop to when
their enatieurene noun be most innorteut for the purpose
of facilitatieg interaatiotral canrounication in Iretaud, that
being the next thing men wanted for the purpose of im-
previa g the condition et the ag,riculterral labourers, and
affording the means of constant employment to a large
portion of the ;emulation, without drawing them Berm agri-
cultural emph.yment by too easy or too well paid labour.
The mete are wen lute:reed to en ate great lots relational tom-
' ninniesitire, and wenld facilitate the use of capita, den er.pi-
tel which as. now kept out of that countrry thoseph fear of
("lineal disputes there. and induce throe who held it to ren-
der di. it assistance under security which would eueure that
they Asti not, by the edr:.nce now made, be liable to one
shilling of ult:sovec cop .utliturc, er to any ulditiosal burs
the no. He could not, wPh the respect which he entertains d
for his untie friend in the other hot.-se, and with his opinion
lot the weight of the authmity of his wide friend who had
I just spoken, permit a stetement to en f or: the authority
that the *chillie hail for its obit et piivute bent lit, when hie
conviction, helitt, and errtainty, wae that its promote r had
for his ohject great =tinsel ithprovement, and great pub-
lie adynittnee without the risk of wee public loss. (Hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM never said that the hill bud been in-
troduced for the peewee of hennaing iedividuels by the
sale of shares. M hat he odd was thi.. that it would amiable
capital to be tippliell in Intend for the puhlic good, by en-
abling the owner. or' rail .ray there. tit toll their snares. The
noble lord seemed to forget fit it :ter eyery 1001. worth of
capital that was sold, another 1001. worth would be invenerl.
Ile ccrtninly had net heard the stet =tit made by the noble
lord in the other hone, for he hod not heen in that home
since NuV. 1030. lle did not read the noble lund's etatenieut,
hut he saw a person who w. pr. sort, and he :tated that the
friends of this mmoure -he dad nut meant' e noble lord—put
the question on thi. ground. Ile asked him whether it woe
Ire the purr se '.f employing the pettple, aid was told that
that was Lot its object, *hick wan to enable the owner.
of shares to sell them, and to inn it their capital in
improving land. (Hear, hear.) I lie reply to that wax,
that he never hem of such an Irish Lill, for that for
envy 100!. worth of capital that was sold ano: her would be
paid in. I hat was a proof that Ise could nut hare meant
whet was attributeu to him. His object in moving for a
return of the napes s un shareholders was to put Ireland on a
level with this country, and to enable those gentlemen who
forget that they ban shares, to quahly themselves for
Tottog by dispeang of them, or to have their names eo forth to
the world when a division took place. Nobody could supper°
that an hon. gentleman would rote fur a bill that would
raise the prize of hie own shares. Lis noble friend spoke of
his monomania again,: railways; all he wanted was that
every company should carry on its own scheme with its own
funds. He had no objection to their eonstruciion, to which
every facility should be alecented, but he did not think that
part/anent should pay tune them.
The Duke of RICHMOND cooed not sufficiintly express
the satisfaction with which he had braid of the measure
which was introduced by Lord G. Itentinek: ti measure
calculated to be of more permanent benefit to Ireland hail
' never come before parliament since lie had been tint in that
house.

FITZ WILLIAM said that he could not object to the
motion of his noble and learned friend, Let it might be
considered that he had same other sidelong view heckles that
of having the names of those who were possessed of Irish
shares. He iookeu this morning to the oleo of the House
of Commons. and he n:werv. el that a bill had been presented
for the purpose of facilitating the employment of the people
of Ireland by promoti. g railways in that ceuetry. Thut was
the first entry in the Votes. Then he looked with an anxious
hope to see that it was bronaht in by his noble friend the
First Lord of the Tremors ; but he was greatly die
appiiinttd to find that it NS VA in other hands, but
he saw, from unoifletal though accurate reports
what had happened in the other borne, that it was
in the bands of a noble lord who exhibited much seal, in-
telligence, end industry, which must have excited the admi-
ration of the other house, and entitled those who prepared
this measure to the gra. dude of Ireland and the L nited
Kingdom. He wished that this measure was in the hands
of the government, and that they had the credit of intro-
ducing it, tow ther with the ma tin but, he was bound to say,
Lineal and imperfect measures :dreads. introduced. He RAI
in hopes that at would have beta in their hands, because he
was sure that a measure of such importance to the welfare of
the community could never be successfully carried through
parliament except by the member,of the executive govern-
ment. Ile trimmed that tnere would be no improper inter-
ference with the prerogative of the crown to pct tent the pro
grey of this measure.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that be had no
objection to the pmduciiiin of the return moved ftr by the
noble lord, and were it not for what had fallen from the
noble earl neer him he would not say a word more on the
subject. He did apprehend that the prerogative which
he so deprecated the cm:ethic of was inset constitutional
and one which the crown, in the exercise of a sound discre-
tion, never abandoned ; and he thought that the noble earl
would be the lest man t. comjiel the government to abstain
from the exercise of it when necessity arose for the use of it.
There was no ni e. mitt, perhaps, tint could arise, in which
it was more essential that the crown should he free to exer-
cise it than in thefts. of a large experiditure of public money,
when that large expenditure was unavoidable, and ones.
eerily connected with a vast field of speculation. In pro-
portion as it may he in the opinion of the advisers of the
crown that it may be useful or the contrary, it was their
duty to abstain from or use it. That was no• the time to
state whether it would be exereised or not. lt might has,
been used in the fleet instance, hut it was the anxious wish of
his noble trend the First Lord of the Treasury' to make no
use of shut prerogative which would interfere with that hall
and able discussion-which took place in the other house,
when a noble lord brought forward a subject which ho
thought that noble lord was entitled to introduce, and
which, for the public interest, should be heard. To that
extent, at least no difficulty bad been interposed. They
would see what the merits of the measure were,
whether it was likely to be useful or mischievous
before they interfered. He was surprised that this
observation should have been made on a cooties like
this, and especially one which had been made without
notice.

The Earl of WINCILILSEA could not refrain from
making a kw observations, for no man felt more deeply
the distress of bit feruw-countrymen than he did,
and while he gave all er..'it to her Nlaie;ie
Government fur their intentions, and wPae he
folly appreciated the difficulties with whirl,. they had
to contend, he still must say that the matures which
they proposed w introduce would never prove of
any permanent utility to the peolde of Ireland.
The recent rapid increase of the population in Ireland ren-
dered it probable that there were short thartlkgland could

r-
ti.
V.-
e

•

emolog ; and it was thereto° good pofiry to give every
facility for emigration, before the population reached a point
wields might be absolutely dangerous to the welfare of the
empire.
1 he motion was then agreed to.
PUNISHMENT OF TRANSPORTATION.
Earl GREY, in answer to a question ftom the Marquis of
SALISBURY, said that certain papers and reports connected
with the system of transportation and the punishment of
convicts, were nearly for presentation, and would be
laid on the table of the house in three or four days.
EDUCATIONAL GRANTS.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that it would have
been to him a source of the greatest pleasure and satisfac-
tion, had he been enabled to state that government were
prepared with so large and comprehensive a plan of educa-
tion as at once, and by rapid strides, to put the population
of this country in the same condition as it was in some parts
of Europe, where an uneducated child was a solitary excep.
tion, and where it might be strictly said that education was
universal with the great mass of the peogte. But he was
bound, in the outset, to state, that upon the fullest
deliberation, it had not appeared to the government practi-
cable to effect the extension of education on so large and
compteheneive• a scale. It undoubtedly mitht have been
attempted, but it would not have been effectel without
great, serious. and overwhelming dangers. It could only
have been attempted on a very limited scale, by being made
strictly comprehensive,—the' is, so as to include in the same
plan and in the same school+ children of all conditions and
religious denominations. The longer he had observed the
progress of this question the more convinced had ho become
of the difficulty of attempting to teach children upon a male
so enlarged and with views so compreheasive. Those diffi-
culties were certainly not ne a, neither were they unim-
portant. In proof that they were not new, he might with
confidence appeal to the judgment and experience of his noble
and learned friend on the bench opposite jord Brougham),
who had exerted himself so honourably, so usefully, and so
constantly on this subject. Bat with all the interest, know-
ledge, and authority which that noble lord could b ing to
the consideration oft he question, he would be the first to state
that he had failed in being able to bring it to a satisfies
tory termination. He had fade], and others had failed ;
and though it might be said, that that which individuals
had attempted in vain a government might succeed in
effe eting, that obeereation could not be made without re-
collecting, at the same time, that there was in this country,
even in the very occasion of a government interfering with
the ordinary habits and arrangements of the people, that
which excited opposition, jealousy, an t difficulty, such as it
was not in the power of a government, constituted as ours
was, to remove. Whenever a plan so comprehensive
had been mooted, it had been met with two
ipow-
erful classes of objections. Ono was raised by
who, from motives the most virtuous and pious,
and the most to be respected, dreaded even a con-
tact existing between persons of one religious persua-
sion and another, but who carried this objection far beyond
what he (Lord Lansdowne) should carry it, were he con-
fident of the soundness, tenth, and excellence of the religion
he professed. But thera were many who entertained that
objection so strongly, that they could not be brought to
concur in any system of instruction which comprised under
the same roof, and in the same schema of education, the
children of different churches and sects. Another great
class of objectors, not without ability and authority, were
those who objected to any interference of the Go-
vernment at all on this question ; and who, carrying
into education th it which they professed on other
sabjeets, an attachment to what was called the
voluntary principle and system, considered that any
interference of government, upon a large Peale at least,
would have the effect of damping and diaunishing the exer-
tions which were now making to some extent, and which
they thought were likely to be made still more effectually to-
wards the promotion of general education. But such was
far from being the universal opinion ; for, though no person
who was deserving of the name of a Christian—no person of
authority in this country, could ever have contemplated the
establishment of a system of popular education upon the
basis of not admitting religion into the system at all, could
ever have supposed that it would be safe or expedient
to invite the mass of Vie people to travel the perilous
road of education without such eminence .—there were many
pious, religious, and learned persons, who thought it would
be practicable, under the same roof, and in the same school,
to provide for the administration of different systems of reli-
gion, while the secular instruction was made common to
all, and extended to the various descriptions and various
classes. Many, who viewed government interference in ge-
neral with jealousy and distrust, were willing to admit this,
and recognised it as one of the first and most paramount
duties of government, to administer to the young of all re
ligions the blestingeof instruction. But these again were only
clams; and he felt deeply convinced that it would be impos-
sible, at this moment, to introduce any system of general edu-
cation under the authority of the law, and aiming to be uni-
versal, which would not in its progrees be attended with
difficulties, opposition, apprehensions, jealousies, and doubts,
such as must interfere with its effectual operation, and
which, upon a question that of all others required the har-
monious co-operation of all descriptions and classes of society,
would invite perpetual polemics and discussion, and, by
introducing irritation and counteraction, to a great degree
impair the accomplishment of the o'sject, and prevent its
arriving at that peaceable conclusion which, on the subject
of education especially, it was most important and essential
ts aim at. Therefore, the government had come to a con-
clusion that it was not expedient to introduce the subject
generally; but, without such an attempt being made, they
thought it practicable, without any great demand on the
resources of the country, to give an impetus to the
establishment and extension of education in this country be-
yond what it had hitherto received. This might be done by
going a little beyond that strict application of the means
voted by the public, which had hitherto been confined to
the mere erection of schools. It was proposed to add to the
grant certain other conditions, which would, to a great ex-
tent, stimulate the efforts, both of the individuals concerned
in the establishment of schools, and also of the schoolmasters
and children. Their lordships would be glad to learn what
had been the operation of the system hitherto, as to the
number of schools, and of children educated therein. The
parliamentary grants for the promotion of education,
from 1833 to 1846 inclusive, had been gradually, steadily,
and, to a limited extent, usefully, increased. The
grants had amounted altogether to 490,0001. The school-
houses erected by the aid of these grants, including those in
progress for which grants had been made, would provide in-
struction for 550,000 scholars ; and there were in addition
about 3.500 scholars provided fur. The schools which had
invited inspection, not being assisted, contained no less than
150,000 scholars. So many schools which were not assisted
by government having invited inspection as a favour, showed
the confidence entertained in the system, and, above all, the
extreme importance of inspection, as a means of improving
and perfecting the schools. It was a circumstance of infinite
importance, and one peculiarly gratifying, that, besides the
schools which hadrequired aid from the privy council, and
for the reception of which aid an indispensable condition
was that they should submit to inspection at all times when
an inspector was eent for the purpose, there had been this
large proportion of schools, not requiring aid, already
founded and in operation without it, which had, neverthe-
less, petitioned the council to *end inspectors to them, that
they might have the benefit of their advice and assistance.
Adding the 150,000 scholars in these schools to the 5.50,00)
in the government schools, it amounted to about 700,000
who were nominally provided for. There was not that
number actually in the schools; but, at least, about half a
million were provided for in the existing schools. Be-
sides these schools of a general character, a great num-
ber of normal schools, had received eminence, in-
cluding those of the National Society, the Battersea
Training School, the Chester Diocesan School, the York and
Ripon School, the Durham Diocesan School, the British and
Foreign Normal School, and the normal schools of the
church of Scotland, all of which had received assistance. He
now came to the recommendations which had been made by
the Committee of the Privy Council, and without attaching
greater importance to them than they deserved, he asked
their lordships approbation of them, as steps in the right
direction, and operating beneficially, as far as they operated
at all. In the first place, it was proposed to carry further
the system of inspection, and to provide for the more fre-
quent inspection of schools. The establishment of inspectors
ought to be sufficient to allow of each school being in-
apected at least once a year. (Hear, hear.) With
the addition of three or four inspectors about to
be appointed, this object would now be attained ;
and a further extension would be for after con-
sideration. The next subject was one to which he attached
the greatest possible importance. The reports of the inspec-
tors uniformly expressed the opinion that there was a defi-
ciency, not only of schoolmasters, but of assistants to school
masters. There was a great want of the support to be derived
from persons qualified to assist the masters in the details of
their important object ; and the monitorial system bad been
found inadequate for that purpose. It was therefore pro-
posed that, in all school, reported to be good schools, there
should bee power granted to the master of each such school
to take apprentices, chosen by lot from the scholars, for
the purpose of enabling the boys so selected to
be trained ultimately to become schoolmasters. The
master who was reported wholly qualified to receive
these apprentices was to have a soccial allowance for each
apprennce,the apprentices being recommended by the guar-
dians, patrons, or committees directing the school. This
would operate not only as a means of teaching the appren-
tice his future craft, or of ascertaining his qualifications for
the office, but also as a reward to the schoolmaster himself
for his acknowledged skill and competency in being able to
instruct these apprentices. Every master, in proportion as
he was recommended as competent by the committee or
superintending body of the school, and every boy ream-
mewled as qualified for his situation, would derive a certain
amount of pecuniary emolument, by which they would
benefit. Prom the apprentices so trained those who had
conducted themselves best would be selected for exhibitions
in the normal schools; this being the second sap is their
progress towards the situatioa of schoolmaster; whoa the 7
attired at the denomination of " Queen's scholer," r
other Assignation that might be used, they weal M aditalned
to adminion to the soma schoobi, where thee catty be
erred to rear their ebartion, and to acquire that addi-
demi pe of sf beewiudge acid practical emporiums which
wadi gnat then for OM& trk. As many Wel* be thee
trained who might not ultimately turn out to be
fitted Ow the of schoolmaster, however red =11.2
duet, es arrangement was proposed, in which the aobhe bed
sit the bra of the Treasury awl the right hon. the Chas-
es... Use etre beheqiew bed eatressed their entire concur-
yew-4hr them pears ahead be entitled, as a reward for
their .I'o eirisel, le esiment in the revenue
depan d Se pebble .se. (Hear, hear.) Thus
a dells quesselleMilled wee given to theft young nee ; a
number drift west' be qualified for the site if 111111001-
MAWR. Oaths Oben weeM benefit bra 4111111911 of
:Mifteafthila lie:o7 bed ben roprod. Osepled with
this maid be isaiediell eserbiaises, whir the
would be edered be revere ; sad teas taking
pine the NM* waft erne enemies and Ann-

tion of all the scholars. Another thing, which materially
affected the general course of education, was the state and
condition of the schoolmaster hipmelf. There was no class
of persons who were better entitkd to the attention and
favour of parliament than the peat mass of the schoolmasters
of Beglan4l. There was no clam of men who were
less likely to reap, in • wordly sense, the reward
of their labours and exertion. (Hear, he tr.) Many of them
were most meritorious individuals ; they were mainly instru-
mental in advancing the fortunes and the future interests of
the children committed to their charge, whom they after-
wards saw advancing in prosperity, and some of them ap-
roaching to wealth, while they themselves were chained
Sown to their laborious duties, hopeless,and without requital
—trusting, no doubt, to their own connancy, their own
exer-
tions, and the faithful discharge of their duties ; but. at the
same time, in many instances, di.coursged by long and hope-
less labour in their old age, and condeenued to see the cur-
rent of their feelings and aspirations chilled by want and
checked by penury. No clam of persons were more entitled
to consideration. They were pl iced in immediate contact and
performed some duties almost in common with the clergy,
while, at the same time, they had an inadequate amount of
reward to stimulate them; and any extension of the system
of education in this country would be imperfect which did
not, in some degree, he hoped in a considerable degree,
ameliorate their condition, excite their hopes, and reward
their exertions. (Hear, hear.) It was therefore proposed
that a provision,—a small provision undoubtedly, but one
which would be thought a great oltject—should be made in
their old age for well-conducted schoolmasters and school-
mistresses, who could show that they had, for a period of
IS years, unexceptionably conducted a school of a certain
size. (Hear, hear.) Out of that number • selec-
tion would be made, according to the reports furnished,
and a certain portion of the public funds would be allotted
to the specific purpose of supporting them in their old age.
Besides these retiring pensions, as they might. be called, it
was intended that a cvetain number of gratuities should be
gi yen, on the recommendation of the inspectors and the
committees of the schools, to ischoolmosters in the exercise
of their vocation, which would prove to them a useful stimu-
lus and encouragement. Another addition which it was
proposed to make had reference to the schools themselves. A
great many wishes had been expressed for the institution of
what might be culled schools of industry, where indus-
trial operations might be taught in connexion with
the schools aided by the parliamentary grant.—
In this it was proposed to follow up the system so beghn,
only advancing funds in proportion to the advance made by
the schools, but it was intended to administer assistance in a
double or greater ratio to those schools in which a system of
industrisl occupation had immediate connexion with the
coarse of education. In other words it was contemplated
in agricultural districts, to hire fields to be connected with
the schools, in which operations in agriculture could be
taught, and in the same way to the schools in towns, work-
shops would be added for the purpose of affording instruction
to the children attending the schools in the ordinary crafts
and operations of those trades by which eventually they
might have to earn their livelihoods. (Hear, hear.) Thus
he thought • most beneficial stimulus would be given
to induce parents to send their children to schools
where they would not only be trained in what may be called
literary vocations, but in which also some preparation would
be made for the exercise of those vocations by which these
children might afterwards become valuable acquisitions to '
their families as well as a benefit to their country; and he
believed, from experience, that nothing could tend more to
reconcile those parents who were at present insensible to the
utility of education to their children than the inculcation of
the belief that they would also be instructed in trades and
occupations, the acquirement of which would be of great
service at home. It would also get rid of and remove the
stion which existed among parents to withdraw their
children too early from the schools, in order to make their
services productive to their families. On this subject he had
testimony, to which he hoped to be allowed to refer,
and which afforded a most salutary example to
the country and to those interested in the details by
which that object has been accomplished. The tes- '
timony was that afforded by the narrative and details'
of a school of the description to which he alluded, contained
in the able pamphlet published on the subject by the Rev.
Mr. Dawes, a distinguished clergyman, who narrated the
conquest he had obtained over the feelings and prejudices of
his neighbours, in a pariah remarkable for vice, crime, and
ignorance, ten years ago, but which was now in so improved
• condition as to morals, as not only to be almost free from
mime, but in which, by the course pursued by Mr. Dawes,
the middle classes of the parish had not only dropped every
prejudice as to permitting their children to mix in the school
with the children of the lower classes, but even the farmers
had so come into the system as to send their children to
board in the parish, for the purpose of partaking of the bene-
fits of that education which the school of Mr Dawes afforded.

---
A NOBLE Loan Inquired the name of the parish in which
Mr. Dawes had 60 established his schools ?

.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied that it was in the
parish of King's Sombourn, in the county of Hauls, situate
in a purely agricultural district. (Hear, hear.) The pam-
phlet showed that such had been the success of the system
that at the close of tire fourth year from the establishment of
the school 158 poor children therein educated had purchased
from their little savings 151. worth of the books used in the
school to take home, there to be used not only as a resource
of amusement to the children themselves, but also to con-
tribute to make their parents sensible of the utility and im-
portance of the schools. (Hear.) These results had been
accomplished by Mr. Dawes mainly by connecting in some
degree the education of the children with instruction in the
occupations of did, parents. On these grounds he (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) thorght that these industrial schools
must be attended with very great advantages. He (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) had now warty concluded
' the statement which he had felt it to be his
duty to by before their lordships on this important
subject. There were schools which, under special
votes of the other house of parliament had been
placed on a better footing. There were also the schools in
the workhouses of the country, which had been improved,
and which would be placed, by the authority of the com-
mittee of the Privy Council, under proper inspection, with a
view to the fit distribution of the large provisions made for
these purposes at the end of the last session of parliament.
These would be new-modelled, and in addition it was
intended to provide cheap books of an elementary character
for the instruction of the children. He believed he had
now stated all that was necessary to be laid before their
lordships. Again, however, he must observe that he con-
sidered these measures as falling very short of that which he
desired to see accomplished—namely, a system which should
include in the course of one general instruction the mass of
the community in which at present so many human beings
were compelled to toil without being afforded a chance of
improvement in that knowledge which it was hoped would
be secured to their children. Of this it fell short ; but he
believed from the experience he had of the increasing seal of
the clergy of all denominations—of the applications for as-
sistance made to the department over which he had the
honour to preside, that, by improving the character and po-
sition of the schoolmasters' and by the proper preparation of
those persona who claimed to succeed them in their useful
and most respectable avocations, that the cause of education
will be advanced, the children of all classes better educated,
and thereby the meat beneficial effects secured to the nation
at large. (Hear, hear.) The noble marquis, who was most
indistuictly heard towards the termination of his speech,
concluded by laying the papers on the table.
Lord BROUGHAM said, that nothing could be more fair
or candid than the statement of him noble friend who had
just sat down, as to the designs and intentions of the govern-
ment es to thei grants which from time to ties* had been
made by parliament for educational purposes. His noble
friend bad, however, frankly admitted that those were not
the plans of the government ; he had disdained such an as-
sumption, and had freely confessed that the government had
no plan of education to propose, and had also given satis-
factory masons why no plan was brought forward. He
(Lord Brougham) lamented quite as much as his noble
friend the grievous calamity, for he could call it
nothing else, that they found themselves, in 1847, placed in
the same circumstances, on this question, that they were,
when, forty-six years ago, the attention of the country was
directed to the education of the people. They were just as
far as ever from the prospect of haring a national, public,
general, and comprehensive system of education. (Hear,
hear.) This was not the fault of this, of the late, or of the
preceding government, but it arose front the unhappy pecu-
liarity in the state of society in this country. He meant to
impute blame to no party, but only to express his concur-
rence in the lamentations of his noble friend that such estate
of things should still continue to exiat—a state of things
which, while it lasted, must baffle all attempts to secure to
the country the inestimable blessing of universal education.
Let it not be supposed that he (Lord Brougham) was the ad-
vocate of a comma/my system of education. Such a
system might answer in Prussia, but would be wholly
inoperative in this country. The compulsory system might
work well in Prussia, but in England it would make educa-
tion positively hated, detested, and odious. Still he was
opposed to the views of those who said, " do not let govern-
ment interfere; do not have a government system of educa-
tion." To the question of education the principles of free
Made did not apply; and he contended that though 'e
who subscribed to the establishment of cheap schools therebyna
encouraged their neighbours and dependents to send their
children to them, yet it had been found that if the govern-
ment interposed, its assistance had been of mischievous
effect. It, therefore, was of the utmost importance that
the committee of privy council for education should not in-
terfere with the bounty of individuals except only as a help
and then only in such a way as should stimulate
private benevolence. (Hear, hear.) There had been •
plan originally recommended in July or August, 1833,
founded upon resolutions passed in 1818 by • select commit-
tee of the House of Commons, over which he had the honour
to=da. Those resolutions embodied the principles of
in the outfit of schools, and of interposing the go-
iomeemt half as • stimulus to private and local exertion.
Blase UM *see prlnshibis had been adopted, and 500,0001.
Midden beim pmgmely and • oily applied by succeeding
IKe Lad ) odd not help lament-
Earmja• slatn't
a UMW he roots a little deeper—
net gam been eMsblishad, sad that education had not
bean Arms& am a sbentot7 brie, es well as being popular
sinsaget the sommunity. Than the reverend bench of pre-
lates, no body of sass felt maw the fact that education
'Bladed the belt aid to reilglem and the surest guide to
smitality. Still no farther had been made in the
great cause. He grieved te say that all the criminal
judges, all lawgivers, and indeed in,wy secretary of state
for the home departmeat ; Judean of the peace, and every
=lightened and thinking man, bad scam to the melancholy
conclusion that Um Mee K polemist, as the means
of deterring evil-dens, bad proved lamentably deficient.
His argument was that prevention was better than cure,
and that children ought to be trained up in such a
manner as that they never would dream of the
commission of crimes. None of their lordships belonged
to the class from which offenders sprang. Hardly
any member of the other house belonged to that class
—(laughter)---he should say none. It was not people

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 6, 1847,

of their rank, or that of their lordships; from which,
with few exceptions, erirniaals rose. In the metropolis
between 150,000 and 290,000 criminals arose out of a popu-'
lotion of 14 million comprised within the jurisdiction of the
Central Criminal Court. Now, if means could be found for
training infanta of between three and six yeera of age in those
habits which are univcra 411 y inculcated in the infant schools,
it would eradicate, in 99 eases out of 100, the seeds of crime,
and would make it impossible that they ebould afterwards be
guilty of it, any more than any of their lordships. On the subject
of capital punishment he differed from many estimable indi-
viduals, and was not prepared to my that in all cases they
' ought to be abolished, though he agreed with Lord Nugent
that they were calculated to increase the ferocious disposi-
tion which led to heinous crime. Such were his reasons for
wishing fora general national education, beginning with infant
schools, and ending with training schools, such as had been
mentioned. And why were not they established? Why,
because there existed two classes of communions, for both of
which he entertained the most profound respect—he alluded
to that composed of members of the church—the other of
members of dissenting congregations Both were the friends
of education, but there we. another thing which they both
preferred, and hence the controversy. That thing was the
claim to victory ; sad in seeking the victory they preferred
the chase to the game. In other words, the members of the
church would not have any system of education which was
not comprehensive and under clerical interference—the din
Rental on the other hand would not have any system
which was subject to clerical interference. Hence
education went to the wall—hence all the evil.
There could be no supervision which could embrace every
sect of dissenters, although it might be applied to the
church. If a bill was passed which gave the church a
proper superintendence, and permitted the dissenters to take
it up or not as they pleased, it was his (Lord Brougham's)
belief, that there would soon be a national and universal
system of education. It seemed, however, that was not to
be, although he wax glad to find there was a step in the
right direction. He quite approved of what had been stated
with regard is inspectors; but they should be instructed
not to let it be known beforehand what schools they
were about to inspect. He should wish the inspec-
tors to be " sporadic," and be constantly moving about,
Training schools should be planted in different districts,
as in York, Lancaster, Exeter, and Maidstone, and
' let teachers be sent to them, and then every year there would
be sent forth a body of 500 or 600 good teachers. At
present the incapacity of teachers in the schools would
hardly be believed by those who had not actual experience
of the fact. lie would suggest that every endeavour should
be made to get quarter pence from the parents of the chil-
dren, which would preserve their independence while it saved
money ; while, if they paid a little for education, they would
value it the more, besides the probability of their making
their children regular in their attendarice. He feared that
training a certain number of apprentices and giving them a
sort of premium by appointing them to places in the. /guise
and the like, would not work so well, but he quite approved
of giving retiring pensions to the teachers, although he did
not think that fifteen yi.ers should be the period, after which
they should be entitled to them.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE.—They could not be ab-
solutely entitled at that time, but they must have served so
to ng.
Lord BROX:GRAIL—Then that was the minimum; it
was not to be leas; but still there ought to be a large margin.
It was important that a better kind of education should be
adopted. The French said that reading, writing, and
ciphering, was not enough, bat they added linear
drawing. This was found to be of the greatest use
in alter life, and had a greater effect in leading
to habits of observation and a distinct knowledge of different
objects than any other species of manipulation, while it was
almost always a remedy against idle and listless habits, be-
sides affording an encouragement to parents to send their
children to school. He regretted that there were compara-
tively so few infant-schools, in which he had always taken
grail interest, end he hoped they would not be kept down
by the want of part of the funds which were to be voted.
The noble lord concluded by thanking the government for
what they proposed, although he regretted that the larger
plan to which he had alluded had not been adopted.
The BISHOP of LONDON (who spoke in so low a tone
as to be very inaudible) was understood to say that he could
not allow the subject to pass without one or two observa-
tions. He could not but express the satisfaction with which
he had heard the clear and can lid statement made by the
noble marquis of the views of the government on this ques-
tion. As far as he could follow that statement, it appeared
to him that the determination of the government was a wise
one. The main feature of the plan seemed to be not none-
cenarily to interfere with the present system, which he be-
' tiered to be rooted in the affections of the people, but to take
advantage of it as it existed to expand and improve it. The
two most important features of the plan were a system of in-
spection and extending. a judicious eystem of training schools.
No system of inspection would answer its intended end,
unless it embraced a vigilant course of superintendence
--not a jealous superintendence or one arising from private
curiosity, but judiciously directed, and not permitted to flow
away unprofitably. Since the commencement of the
plan of inspection, he,had been accustomed to impress on
the clergy the advantage of calling in the aasiatance of the
inspectors, by way both of encouragement and direction, and
since then the prejudice of the supporters of the church
schools on the subject had been giving way, if it had not
entirely gone. As tar as his experience went the government
inspectors had done their duty, not only with courage and
faithfulness but with delicate consideration and unobjection-
able temper. (Rear, hear.) The clergy and managers
of the local schools bore their testimony to this,
and, so long as they continued so to act, they
would find the clergy anxious to assist them in
keeping the masters and committees in the right direction,
and their counsel and opinions would have a weight and
authority, which could not he obtained from any other
source. Then with regard to normal schools, it had been
found that the difficulty to be contended with in promoting
national education was to procure efficient men to work the
schools. Whatever might be the system, whatever the ma-
chinery might be, still the school depended on the master,
and, therefore, even a good system was of no benefit with
inefficient masters. The government could not act more
wisely than in promoting the efficiency of normal schools.
He would not dismiss this subject without recommending to
the noble and learned lord (Brougham) the expediency of
his paying a visit to some of the best normal schools, where
he would find several of the matters which he had suggested
in full operation. For instance, linear drawing was prac-
tised in the normal and other schools, and brought to a de-
gree of excellence with which he would be both surprised
and pleased. The noble and learned lord had suggested the
establishment of training schools in different parts of the
kingdom ; but they already existed in almost all the places
he had named. There were diocesan training schools at
Chester, at York, at Durham, at Salisbury, and at Exeter.
With regard to another suggestion of the noble and
learned lord as to the payment of quarter-pence by
the went, of the children, he could state that there was
hardly a national ached in the neighbourhood of London in
which such payments were not made weekly—a much more
convenient plan, and most of the expenses were defrayed by
this means. The noble and learned lord was hardly aware
of the extent to which education had been carried in the
last few years, and he would be delighted, if he were to visit
the schools, to find the extent to which the teaching was
carried there. The pupils who quitted St. Mark's College,
at Chelsea, passed examinations which would reflect credit
even on those admirable and excellent establishments which
were the boast of the city in which the noble and learned
lord was so much interested, and which was designated as
the Modern Athens. In addition to drawing and languages,
to a certain extent they were taught the doctrines of the
church, not to be so held as to amount to bigotry, but to
enable them to form a just opinion of their value, as derived
from Scripture • and they were instructed that it was their
duty more than' that of any other clam, except the promoters
of religion, to inculcate them upon the youth committed to
their care. There was one part of the statement of the noble
marquis on which, until he was better informed, he would
not mar any opinion ; he alluded to the subject of workhouse
:enacts. In dealing with that question it should not be for-
gotten that they were connected with• the national schools,
and that they operated on each other. It had fallen to his
let to visit one or two workhouse schools, and he could state
that better schools did not exist. He had thought it but
right individually to express his thanks to the government
for the plan they had proposed.
The Bishop of ST. ASAPH begged to express his ap.
probation of the plan proposed by the government.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA, while he thanked the go-
vernment for the plan they had proposed, could not help
thinking that a general spurn of education would meet with
support, and that even the great body of dissenters would
not object to it.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said it wu un-
angs:for him to add anything to what had been so
aimilby the right rev. prelate who had spoken, and he
should therefor* only express his thanks to the noble mar-
quis for the attention he had paid to the subject, and the
evident care with which the materials of the plan bad been
prepared.
Their lordship then adjourned at a few minutes past 8.