The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

law aid of the Acts in Ireland hod been wholly disregarded,
land thou of English coaveyaneme adopted.
Sit W. VERNER said the imposition of this rate was a
ofpoor return for the loyalty which the men
of the north had semitrited in resisting the over-
tures which lees well affected •parties had made to them
with a view to the repeal of the union. It was
not even as though the rate wee, to fall upon all Tree
party indiscriminately. The whole burden was to weigh
mon agricultural property, already more heavily charged
than It could well bear, while other descriptions of property
remained perisotly untaxed.
Mr. CLEMENTS thought it was clear that the money
must come from an bah source, required as it was
foe essentially Irish purposes. The question at issue was the
taxation of Ireland according to her wealth, and it was not
suggested that hitherto Ireland had not contributed to
the taxes in proportion to her mean/. It was not from any
disinelinatioa on his part to contribute towards the
relo fof the distress in Ireland that he objected to the
resolution. His objection was to the principle of a rata in
aid. It had been stated by the government that
the rate ma only to be continued for two yean. But
say person who was acquainted with the state
of Ireland, particularly of those parts which were to be re-
lieved by the rate, would be quite convinced that it was
not to be exposited the rate was to last only for two years.
He agreed with the hon. member for Longford that no single
measure, whatever might be its nature, would effect this
objeet. The measures for her relief must be suited to her
eiresnmetanees. They must, moreover, be measures in which
the whole empire took an active past and interest.
If there were any resource which it was more un-
desirable to have resort to than another, it was this of a
rate in aid. The poor law was a new measure in Ireland,
sad it was difficult to meet the demands which it caused to
be made on the farmers there. Tt e toople of England were
not aware of the struggles made by the occupiersof land to
pay their poor rates; and if they knew what they
would suffer when celled upon to pay this additional rate,
the English nation would sympathies with the Irish farmers
and refuse to impose it. Another serious difficulty which
promoted itself was the machinery by which the rate
was to be collected. It was not known whether the
rata in aid was to be leyied upon a special valuation, or whe-
ther it was to be raised according to the existing valuation In
Ireland. The valuation was imperfect. The inequality that
existed between the various parts of Ireland in the valuations
to the poor-rates was as great as 50 per cent. That feet wee
proved by the evidence taken before the poot-law committee
sitting up stairs only the other day. Any attempt to alter
the valuations now would be too late. How, then, was the
rate in aid to be levied ? If according to the present poor-
law valuation, what would be the feelings of those who would
have to pay double the amount at which other unions were
rated? Those unions also in which the poor-law
was strictly carried out would contribute 60 per cent.
more than others where it wee not enforced. He very
mach feared that wherever this rate In aid should be rigo-
rously levied, the farmers and occupiers of land possessed of
substance would leave the country as fast as they mild.
The right lion. baronet opposite had stated that evening
that there was no difference between the rate in aid
and a property tax. But he (Mr. Clements) asserted
there was all the difference in the world between
the two taxes, owing to the mode in which they were levied.
The rate in aid must first come out of the farmers' pockets ;
and no me who knew what the sufferings of that class in
Ireland had been during the last three years of famine and
potato rot, but was awe of the fact that the imposition of
such a load as that last proposed on their backs would tre
ats universal despair. Such, at least, he feared would be the
effects of this tax. If he Understood the government proposal
rightly, it was to draw the amount of the rate in aid directly
out of the unions according to their respective
valuations. But, if this were done, the virtual
effect would be to impose a nioepenny instead
of a sixpenny rate upon many of the unions. 'Canis unfair
in the highest degree to impose such a burthen on the poor
farmers of Ireland. For his own part, he would strongly
advocate the substitution of an income-tax for a rate in aid.
The latter fell directly upon the tenantry, whereas the
income-tax was paid by the landlorde. It might seem stra
that the Irish landlords should pref,r an inc-me-tax at 7d.
to a rats in aid of 6d, in the pound. The right boo. Familia
opposite had said that the government would get the rate in
aid first, and take the income-tax afterwards. But in
his opinion the former at 63. would be a heavier
burthen than an income-taxi at 71. in the
He did, therefore, hope that If this money were to be
on the resources of Ireland, the noble lord would takedato
consideration the most acceptable mode by which such mesas
might be raised.
Mr. BOURSE observed that the system of gratuitous
relief which had existed in Ireland bad destroyed the self-
reliance of the people of that country. Ile was strongly
opposed to the mode of distribution of this proposed rate in
aid and he was equally opposed to the mode in
which it was proposed to be levied because he looked upon
it as a direct violation of the faith of this country with Ire-
land. His constituents would be willing to contribute ac-
cording to their ability to the wants of the imperial exche-
quer; but if they could show that they were already over-
burdenedby taxation,end that they were unable to contribute
more, he thought that they had made out a case for exemp-
tion. But give them English industry and English wealth,
and they would gladly pay, not 7d. but Is. in the pound
income tax. For these reasons, and firmly believing that
the measure would alienate the affections of a large body of
loyal subjects from this country, he should give it his most
strenuous opposition. Until they consented to assimilate the
area of taxmen in Ireland to the area in this country,—until
they encouraged emigration, and chose no longer to keep
the people in listless indolence, then, and not till then,
might they hope to dispense with such a vicious system of
legpidon as was now submitted to the house. (Hear, hear.)
r. B. ROCHE supported the resolution because it pro-
posed a temporary relief for a temporary want, because he
thought it was due to the Englitei people who had made
such sacrifices for the eel of of Irish distress, but he did
hope the rate would not be levied until after harvest.
Sir A. BROOKE thought the proposition most impolitic
and most mischievous. He would suggest to govern-
ment to pass a clause to impose a double rate on all ab-
sentee landlords. He himself possessed small properties in
different parts of the country, whereon be could not reside,
and on account of which he should be willing to pay the
double rates. He also suggested that government should
take posression of in order to bring int* cultivation, the waste
lands of Ireland, which amounted to 2,000.000 of acres, a
larm portion of which was reclaimable, and might, if re-
claimed, be made the means of providing profitable employ-
ment for a large proportion of the labouring pepuletion.
He wished to call ministers' attentioo to the tact that, in
many parts of Ulster, the landlords had contributed not 24.
in the pound, but as much as 14s. or 16s. in the pound, in
the relief of the poor in poor rata and other modes of relief.
Ea knew that Lord Farnham had paid upwards of 4,0001.
in poor rates last year in his county, besides expending
larr sums in giving employment to the people. Other
landlords in the north had paid in the same proportion.
He thought it would be well se a means of encouraging
landlords to give employment if it was nrovided that all im-
provements should be exemp'ed from the rate for a certain
number of years.
Sir G. GREY said that the several important admissions
which had been made in the course of this discussion, be
was happy to say would enable hint considerably to limit his
observations, inasmuch as those admissions had very much
narrowed the questions at issue. The first admission which
had been made was that the, e did exit in some of the
western unions of 'Maul an amount of distress which ren-
dered it impossible to relieve the destitution in those unions
from their local resources— (hear, hear)—but rendered same
extraneous aid absolutely necessary in order to avert scenes
of misery and starvation which be was sure the house of
Commas would not be prepared to sit by and see enacted
without some strenuous endeavour, some continuous
exertion to prevent it. (Hear, hear.) It was not
nemesary for him to go into the papers which had been
WI before the house to show what was the actual
state of that distress, because that part of the case was not ,
controverted, nor was the necessity denied, of something 1
being immediately dome to avert the result to which he
alluded. ln the necessity for doing something all parties
concurred. (Hear, hoer.) The hoe. member far Tipperary
had said that the object of the sseesure was to relieve the
landlords and not the people. He had to my that that was
not the object of the measure, which was proposed to afford
relief not to the landlords, but to those of the people who
were proved to be in the lowest state of destitution. The
hoe. gentleman who had just sat down,and whose opinion
was entitled to the highest respect, had made some observa-
tions from which he (Sir G. Grey) was not prepared to dis-
sent. The hon. mailman had said that the present condition
of Ireland was the consequence partly of centuries of mis-
government and partly of the bad conduct and neglect of
mazy of the Irish landlords themselves. (Hear, hear.
The ban. gentleman admitted that great exertions he
been made in many localities to collect the rates, and that
many of the landlords had not only contributed largely
fa the shape of poor's.rates, but had also made considerable
sacrifices in providing employment for the people. White he
agreed with the hon. gentleman that great credit was due to
the owners of property inthe union of Baling, for the mea-
ner in which they had paid their contributions to the poor-
rate, he must concur that if they were to go into the causes
of the existing distress, it would be impossible to deny that
the owners of property in that part of Ireland were not
wholly free front blame—(hear, hear)--and that the system
pursued by them of letting out the land in small patches for
the purpose of growing potatoes—and which before the
failure of the potato crop were capable of maintaining
large numbers of persons by their produce, and
which were consequently let at very high rents
had produced a pauper tenantry, men without
capital, who had not a shilling in their pockets when they
paid their rents ; and the estates having descended from
father to son, were at length made the mere subject of a
nominal rental. Why, the very extract the right hon.
gentleman had read great the report expressed most fircibly
this important Soot, that the distress in the unions was not
attributable to the poor-law, but that it had its origin in the
firertalure of the potato crop. (Hear, hear.) The house
were not, however, now inquiring into the causes of the dis-
tress. They foundthousands of people on the very verge of
starvation, and the question was, how were they to be fed.
The assertion so very generally made by those whose
opinions were entitled to the greatest weight
in that house, because they were fully cogni-
sant of the circumstances of the country, and dis-
charged their duties faithfully—the admission so often
expressed by these hon. members that the time had come
when some steps must be put te the repeated applications to
the imperial parliament for grants of public money, was
entitled to weight. (Hear, hear.) But what was the
question ? Why, it was this—if the aid now iodispeosably
necessary for the suffering was to be rendered by parliament,
whether the proposal of her Majesty's Maiden to raise 61.
in the pound, limitting that rate is its amount and also in
its duration, was not the least objectionable mode in which
the tax could be levied ? (Hear. hear) He felt himself
bond to look at the main objections to the proposal.