The Express.
London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

• ~ L.

[3d.

the Tosin•latb2s' Yalueion Committee In 1844, that
committee, in pillar their opinion on the subject of ss.•
county ems. proposed that the princip..e of the proportion ote
payment of the rates by the landlord and tenant should be
applied to the county cess, and they referred to the report
of the committee appointed to inquire into the state of the
poor in 1834. He thought their lordships would art with
little widow if they adapted the amendment. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of Al ALMESBCRY supported the amendment.
The Earl of WICKLOW thought the propsition of the
government would only tend to heighten the prejudices
which existed in Ireland against the upper clause.. The
effect of the clause would also be to mum confusion and em-
barrusment for yearn to come amongst the oocupicre of land
Is that country.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN did not intend to support
the amendment, although he approved of the principle which
ft declared ; but the only question was as to the application
of that principle to Ireland. He was desirous that the bill
should have a fair trial, and that no impediments should be
thrown in its war, even for the sake of asserting what
Right be considered a just principle.
Lord REDESDALE supported the amendment.
The Earl of ROSEBERY said that he would rather the
hal should not pus at all than that it should pass with th
clause recommended by the noble lord.
The Earl of CLANCARTY said, that notwithstanding his

belief that this poor-law, which was the English poorda-w an
regarded relief, should be Engli-h as for as the rate-payers
were concerned, yet he would withdraw his support to tie
noble lord's amendment, as he had a motion to make which
would meet his views on the matter en the bringing up of
the report.
Lord STANLEY said, that although several of their lord-
ships had determined to accord their votes against his amend-
ment, yet Ire had the satisfaction of knowing that there was
not one of them, who, in the course of this diecuedon, had
questioned the soundness of the principle which he had laid
down, or had answered the arguments or the statements
which he had made. It had been objected by
some that the principle of the Irish Poor-law,
which he wished to amend. had for the last five or six years
worked well. He must say that those noble lords who
argued in that manner entirely overlooked that which, in his
Mew, was the whole and sole foundation of the argument&
es width he presumed to base his amendment. Yes, the
Wok Peordaw had worked well hitherto. But what was it
isieleselo? Hitherto it wax carried out strictly within the
'address, and nudely oe.iflued to the destitute poor, and
boi mild ea a claw cicalas wholly different sad wholly Ai.
Mast items those to which this measure would be applicable.
If smiler mime this measure were to be confined to the aged
and klite~, did they think that he would have offered any
to it? He meted satisfied with the existing
of relief, because it would only apply
M *IMMO which no exertion could increase or diminish,
Mililleamount of which was not controllable. His whole
was this, that it was the occupier in Ireland as
MITSMit the occupier in England who had the power of em-
ploying labour, and that it was by that employment that the
poor rata were to he kept down. They were now for the
hest time granting relief to the able-bodied out-door poor,
therefore he called on them when they were grantingrelief
to grant it as they do in England, and to apply to this new
state of the law in Ireland that which they felt to
be essential to the state of the law in England
Not a word bad been said in reference to that argument,
not an answer had been given to the question. The question
of relief to the able-bodied labourer out of the workhouse
was, from first to last, not only not answered, but not even
touched. Then he was told that this course of proceeding
was introduced for the purpose of dividing the burthen be-
tween the landlord and tenant. Was this applicable to the
present state of the land 1 He denied it. He was against
relieving any oxe man and throwing the burthen en the
other. (Hear.) What they were now about to do was to
adopt for permanent legislation a most mischievous
and dangerous principle. He thought that they
were bound to lay down a sound principle, and
kis was what they all admitted to be a sound principle, and
although its operation be prospective, yet when they did lay
down a law they should lay down a sound principle on which
to gamy it oat. He saw that them was a ma-
jority against him, end that his was a view
which it was not considered expedient to adopt. He
bowed to their opinion, the generality of which he could not
doubt, and he would sot, for the purpose of retarding votes,
give their lordships the trouble of dividing, and he trusted
that those of their lordships who had done him the honour
of supporting him on this occasion, and whose sentiments
coincided with his with regard to the principle and policy
which he laid down, would not think him unwise in not
giving their lordships the trouble of dividing, and would
permit him very respectfully, and at the same time with •
lull conviction of the soundness of his principle, to withdraw
the amendment which he had submitted to their lord-
ships. He felt it, however, his duty to say that
he would more the same amendment on the bringing up of
the report of the bill, not for the purpose of dividing their
lordships, or of entering into a discussioa on it, but through
a wish that it should appear on the journals of their lord-
ships' home that the amendment had been made, the sound •
me of the principle laid down in which he trusted on a
listen occasion to vindicate.
The Bishop of LonDoN and the Marquis of CLANRICARDE
said a few words in explanation.
Lord MONTEAGLE then moved that the chairman
should report p
Lord CAMPBELL said that in all his experience he had
never heard such a proposal. It was, in effect, that the bill
should be reported, with four clauses limited in their opera-
tion, without any specific period of limitation being fixed.
Lord MONTEAGLE consented to propose the limitation
of which he bad given notice, bat modified it so as to make
the act expire on the lot of September, 1860.
The Marquis ef LANSDOWNE said, that in consenting
for the amendment to be itaroduced at present, merely as
information to the house of the extent of the limitation pro
posed, he would not bind himself not to oppose the limiest
lion at a future stage.
The Earl of WICKLOW twitted the noble lord below
Yen (Lord Monteagle) with having abandoned his own
adopted that preposed by himself (the Earl of
Ths noble lord had even gone so far as to make
• some the limitation which he now advocated.
amophiler.) Had the chairman been allowed to report pro-
mite shosid afterwards have proposed that the act be
to three yearn.
Earl FITZWILLIAM made some remarks on the effect
of the general limitation already agreed to.
Earl GREY said, there was no doubt the noble lord, the
mover of that limitation, had misapprehended its effect. The
house was bound to define this vague limitation. He would
take no part in the dismission, further than to say, that he
thought it perfectly immaterial whether one, two, or three
years were fixed ; foe on one in his senses believed, that if
out-door relief was same established in Ireland, it could he
abrogated again. (Roar.) He hoped the house would have
a farther opportunity of maundering the whole question of

Earl ITZ WILLIAM disclaimed any wish to damage
the bill, but said he should support the limitation, with tie
view to render the bill as good as passible. So far from
thinking that if out-door r.lief was once introduced it
would never be got rid of, he believed that the system itself
would tend to its own extinction ; and on this ground he
was anxious for the limitation.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN said he had understood from
the first that the limitation already adopted applied only to
certain clauses. He had always been in favour of out-door
relief to the infirm sad tuff ring poor, but not to the able-
bodied. To the litter class he would not altogether refine
relief, but a marked distinction ought to be drawn between
the two classes. On this ground, he had been anxious that
the principle, now first introduced, of out-door relief to the
abl►bodid poor, which would necessarily be an experi-
ment, should be limited so to time in its application.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH expressed himself
against the limitation.
Lord MONTEAGLE defended himself from the charge
of seeking to damage the bill, by urging that he had voted
for its second reading.
After a conversation, the proposed limitation clans. was
agreed to.
Lord MONTEAGLE then proposed an amendment, the
effect of which was understood to be the ritual of outdoor
relief to the able-bodied poor.
After a few words from the Earl of Cirrecairre and Earl
FITZWILLIAM,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE suggested that the better
cause would be that the clause proposed by his noble friend
(which was not yet on their lordships paper) should be
printed, and ►rought under consideration in the bringing up
of the report.
Lord MONTEAOLE acquiesced, and the preamble of the
bill having been agreed to, the house resumed, and the bill
' was ordered to be reported with amendments.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE intimated that as the
house would not sit on Thursday (Aseenaion Dar) he would
name Friday next for the bringing up of the report, prior to
taking the next stage of the Army Service Bill.
Lord STANLEY remarked that it would be impossible to
take the discussion en both bills on the same evening.
The Earl of CLANCARTY said that many frith peers
whose present* in Ireland was most desirable, were detained
in town until the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill was disposed of.
Ho therefore hoped there would be no objection to the house
sitting on Wednesday for the purposeof taking the nextstage
of that bill.
Earl GREY said that such an arrangement was Repos.
tilde. The bill, at emended, had to be printed, and, more
than that, several suggestions made in the course of the dis-
cussion, which his noble friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
had undertaken to consider, could not have that attendee
in the abort interval between this evening and Wednesday
next which they required. Friday, therefore, was the earliest
day the bill could be proceeded with, and though the Army
Service Bill stood for the same day, he (Earl Grey) would
postpone that measure if the debate on this bill was pro-
tracted to a late hour.

iitereport----Ww7udered to be brought up on Friday, and
the house adjourned at a quarter past eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, MAT 10.
The Brzwa took the chair at four o'clock.
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