The Express.
London, England, 1847-05-08 00:00:00

aION3 TO VETBRIO4ARY SIMGVON4,
FOX MAU= said this *a has. ead 0: isat
4. 4 fora 'ura at wen:
0140 •-• exmluded

THE RXIIItESS, SA

PENSIO, tn.
Mr. FOX. _
her f..r Liverpool moved ti • veteri-
nary surrecon, and ember <deem WOO 41;11 11.001
the benefits of the retiring pension which edam were to
have. The motion was Made aa an unopposed return, but tai
wished r say that, in pasties to those who preceded him in
eose beheld. and for the public convenience, be could
set Went Is the return.
SOLDIERS' PENSIONS.
. . . _

In emirwe. to a question by ?dolor L LT \i.
Mr, FOX MAULE said that it was the intention of her
Msjetty't government to submit to her Majesty
y a warrant,
wherlh7 the minimum rate of pension flsed the warrant
of 1833—namely, Bd.—was to be raised to 3d. (Hear, hear.)
In addition to this, the soldier wee to he permitted to carry
with him a pension of such good .conduct pay as he should
have earned during 21 years' service. (Hear, hear)
EXCHEQUER BILLS.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—Sir, I
am about to take a mum which, I am aware, is irregularla
point of form, but which is necessary in the present stets el
feveri-h anxiety, not enly in the metropolis, but in many
parts of the country, is reference to the monetary affairs of
the kingdom. I will shortly state precisely what ans
the intentions of the government. Sir, I need hardly asy
that this auhject has occupied the anxious consideration of
the government. My noble friend and myself have received
from day to day numerous deputations, and we have also
been in constant, I may say hourly, communication with
those parties who are able, we believe, to afford the most
accurate information, and to give the best advice as to
the steps necessary to be taken in the present
state of the money market. The complaints and
representations made to us may be classed wider two divi-
sions. Those parties who came up from the country urged
that various steps should be taken, either by the government
or by the Bank of England guaranteed by the government,
all of which would &menet either to the repeal or the stn.
pension of the law by which the currency of this country is
now regulated. (Hear, hear.) New, Ido not wish at fhb
moment to rates ant discussion on that question, though it
may vary fairly be raised by horhgentlemen ; all that I wish to
state is, that that is a course which her Majesty's government
are not prepared to adopt. (Hear, hear.) Hoeing made
that declaration, let me say, I think it desirable that, con-
silently with the maintenance of that law, every facility
shed be given which can be Riven legitimately and legally
-(Year, hear)—and undoubtedly no demand should be made
ea the part of the government which can possibly interfere
with that accommodation which it is desirable to giver on
geed and safe security to such an extent as the Back feel
tammelves justified in giving it. Sir, it is just a week ago
dame I gated ant the necessity for the stringent measures
ressatly adopted by the Bank had ceased to exist. I car-
Jellify must have been misunderstood, when I was repre.
seated as havine said that the danger was over; I never
used any expression of that kind, or to that effect.
(Hear, hear.) What I said was—not as matter of opinion
but as matter of fact—that the necessity for the stringent
measures which had been resorted to had ceased to exist.
On the two previous des is the severity of the machinery em-
ployed by the Beek had been relaxed; end they had been
enabled, within reasonable and moderate bounds, to give in-
creased esscommodation. The last retarns published show a

I very mach improved condition of the Bank.' Since last Satur-
day they have received no less than 400,000!. in gold and
slur bullion, and nearly to that extent, therefore, inde-
pendently of the accommodation which they may have been
enabled to give, the circulation of the country has been in-
creased. Now, of course, I am most anxious not to in-
terfere with the discretion which the Bank may think
proper to exercise. I desire, so far as the government
securities are concerned, to place them in a position in which
they will be as available as possible to those who hold them ;
and I also wish to pat the exchequer in such a condition as
will raise, to the extent of my power, that aid and amistanee
which, on former occasion., on quarter day, with a single
exception, been readily afforded by the government to the
Bank. It oartaiely does appear that the description of go-
vernment securities which, at the present moment, labours
under the greatest depression, and I may say discrodir, is
exchequer bills. (Hear, hear.) lam aware that consider-
able anxiety is felt se to the course which the government
intend to take with regard to thet subject; and although
the usual time for making an announcement on the subject
has not arrived, yet, with a view of calming that anxiety, I
think it desirable to state that I shall, ou the venal day, the
19th of May, give the usual no•iee for the exchange of ea-
chequer bills, subject to the usual conditions, with this addi-
tion—that I think it iadiepenuble to raise the rate of in-
terest on thus securities, which is now far below the current
rats on any other description of securities with which
they compete. (Hear, hear.) I propose that, from
the day of exchange, exchequer bills shall bear an
interest of 3d. per diem. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I
find, moreorer' that that which has usually been done on
former occasions—the hoer tiring of monezeupon exchequer
hills—has of late been attended with weal rabic difficulty ;
but I am happy to state that the Bank his now found itself
in a condition to make advances of money on those bills.
They did that to • certain extent to-day, it having been mule
known to the brokers that they were prepared to take that
comae. lam glad to say that the demand made upon t're
Bank has been very far short of what might have been ex-
pected , they burr been able to meet the whole demand for
advances, which I believe has not exceeded tae was muter.
stood) 170,000!. Now, with regard to the exchequer, it is
certainly exceedingly deerable that I should not be under
the necessity of calling upon the Bank to make Larger ad-
vances than are indispensably necusary. lam happy to
say that although last week, probably from the difficulty of
obtaining money, the payments of money were a little
checked, I have beard from my right hon. friend, the Chair-
man of the Customs Deputes. nt, to-day, that payments
have resumed their ordinary course ; and that, for the last
two or thou days, they have amounted to us mach as usual
at this time of the year. Indeed, I have heard from
many sourer that money is, in the City of Lon-
don, much easier ; and that the extremity of de-
pression is past. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, the
mode by which I propose to put the Exchequer in a favour-
able condition is by offering inducements to those psersons
who have undertaken the loan to pay up their instalments.
I have reason to believe that in all probability a great num-
ber of perms who were parties to the loan will be disposed
on the allowance of discount to pay up either the whole or a
portion of the instalments between this and the .sth of July,
and what I wish to do to-day therefore is, to give notice that
on Monday next I shall move that the house resolve itself
iuto committee, when I shall submit a resolution empower-
ing all advance of interest by way of discount on prompt
payments. I propose to make an allowance of discount to
all persons who shall pay up any portion of the instal-
meats due front them. On former occasions it has been
usual to insist on payment of the whole, but I do not in-
tend to do that in the present ease. What I propose is that any
person who shall pay up, previous to June 18, any portion
of the instalment due subsequently to that day, shall receive
discount at a given rata, tole calculated from the day on
which the payment is made up to the period when the in-
stalment shall become due ; that is to say, If any one pay up
early in May the whole of the instalment due in June he
shall receive a month's interest; if he pay in May what is due
in June and July,he shall receive two months' interest; and
if he pay in May what is due in June, July, and August, he
shall receive three months' interest ; and from the day in
June on which the exchange takes piece, the interest on all
exchequer bills will be at the rate of threepence per diem.
I have reason to hope that a considerable rum of money will
in this way be paid up; from what I hear, lam in hopes
we shall receive a sufficient sum to place the exchequer in a
satisfactory condition before the day for the payment of
dividends shall arrive. Ido not know that I need state any
more at present. I shall on Monday move that the house
resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider
of authorising an allowance of interest by way of discount on
prompt payment of instalments on exchequer bills.
PUNISHMENT OF VAGRANTS, &e. (IRELAND)
BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the order date day for going
Into committee on this bill.

Mr. SCROPR mad that before the house went into com-
mittee, he wished to ask the noble lord whether he would
pledge himself to take every mew in his power to secure
the paring of a measure whisk would give to the poor of
Ireland • right to relief ha amo eldwititution. (Hear, hear.)
If the Irish psowlaw hod aineeposwy amain riven to it, it
would he porlholly wwlNar in Ito eparsika ; it would be
useless to moot abaratoo lambwito w as.. bark from
France, tram light to ouilstionMadmi aidg to two or dorm
years. boom dm almaim of aped peer-law opium whisk
made irslloll a weft& of borne to all Berme,
and he Model that wait • state of litho would not
mations. Be wished to ask, Asset, wbother the
noble lord mint to pressed with this sup meet-
wan; and ostioadly, whether he woad adopt any means
ia the power of the government to ontablidt a good poor-
law inlrelowil
_ _ _

Lord J. RUSIIBLL—Sir, my boa. Meal mks me for
some I,,,hegistion empasstag my intentions as to goiag es
with this bill. I beg is remind him that I have always de-
clared tam m the versa Pew-law Bill only applied to a
certain paths ef tM deetitues. k would not be just to de.
prise those whooroadralsmi by the principle of the bill of
the means adobes/aft what assistance they could in charity.
I am still of the muse opinion, ace, therefore, I could not
ask the house to peas this bill, unless I hollered that a
general bill was alum to become law which would give to all
persona la danger et starving the means of obtaining
thole Nippon hum rates to be levied by law. (Cheers.)
I may my taseher, in answer to another question,
pat by my boa. hind, that if that poor-law bill, the object
of which is to giro such relief, is to be limited ie its aura-
tiou, then this bill, which is of a penal character, shonld also
be limited in the same manner. (Hear, hear.) But while
I say this, I do not think that that is any mama for &dieing
to enter into the details of this measure. (Hear, hear) It
is obvious that if the two houses of parliament wen to show
so much jealousy of each other, that the one said we will not
pass the vagrancy bill unless the poor-law bill be satisfactory
to us after it has passed through the other house • and the
other said, we will not consider the pow-law bill Lulea, the
vagrancy bill shall accompany it, it is quits obvious, I say,
that there would be great danger that between the two no
progreas in legislation would be made. I am, therefore,
peed to go into committee on this bill. Before the bill has
finally passed through this house, we shall probably know
in what state IL loth which we hare sent up to the other
house will be returned to us. (Hear, hear.) At present I
do not think my hoc. friend is aware whether or not the
alteration in the other hill, from a permanent to a temporary
duration, is an alteration which applies to the whole of the
bill—( Hear, hear)—or whether it applies only to some clauses
of It, and if so, to what clauses. Sir, with regard to the last
pint which my hon. friend put—namely, the necessity for a
Exis-law, I must say that lem more and more oouvineed,
circumstances which I learn from day to day, and from
• opinions of parsons for whose authority I feel great
respect, that the Dill which we have passed in this house
is absolutely necessary for Ireland. (loud cheers.) I
heard only this day—l will not mention name/ be•
anise it may be one of those exaggerated statements

'RDAY EVENING, MAY 8,

which are eamedises made, but se far as I can 1100
it slums to he well authenticated-I,hesed tide day of the ems
of a poor family, which having had kr its Mod Ilaillithr
forty-shilling freeholders, who were *Vim'. 0104."..
serfs and Otani of the great political Pussliarolt bit uomw`•
isooft ari
and having now Demme luster, have sainted •
to quit their holdings, rad, tint sans bring rsarosesdr tae
loft to guars. I kayo Maud that the ocrosurbut
other G&W passes, hood a wawa rad he, shwas'=. „wow,
and that adistbod boss ralkadby lasso as wirrob
bad lined kw• sera roes, wills tiny worolle
ids
deal eerfa. (Cries of "Num, mono.") I 's
not give the name, but I hare heeled the stals;sansaillk
no one can be blind to the eireeMetniela With* sae
in Ireland. It was stated to my HOS kraaarib Mt
few days ago, that the relief- works hawk* bee"
stopped in the district of limitary. within a tsw lama great
number of persona had perished. Why, sir, It dogs War
to me, that although persons with property in 11.104 al7
be unable to feed the destitute poor for a whole year, in
which their usual food has been exhaurted, yet during an
interval between the stopping of the public works, sod the
operation of the bill which has been proposed, persons of
property in the neighbourhood, and not the government,
were bound to maintain the destitute. I may ley, further,
with respect to authority, that two persons who had en-
pressed very strong opinions against oat-door relief in
Ireland, and to whom opinion great value attaches—one of
these gentlemen being Mr. Nicholles, one of the present
par-law commissioners, and the other, Mr. Outman, au
aasistant-commissioner—have expressed their opinions in
writing, that in the present state of things in Ireland out-
door relief is absolutely necessary. Under them circumstanon
and with these authorities to support my veins, I am more
confirmed than ever in my opinion as to the nmesity of such
• law ; and it is under those circumstances that I ask
thi house to proceed with the Vagrancy Bill. (Cheers.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD would not oppose the motion for
going into committee, but agreed with the hon. member fur
Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope), that it would be unwise to allow the
bill to proceed to its further stages until the house knew
what was to be done with the F.sor-law Bill.

Mr. F. FRENCH said he could not refrain from expels.
ins his astonishment at the eireiteastanee of a portion of
the Poor-law Bill being considered • stumbling-block to the
Vagrancy Bill.
Mr. SHAW thought the limitation placed upon the Irish
poor-law bill would have a beneficial effect. He could not
but express his regret that the noble lord should have
alluded to the nee he had mentioned without giving any
name. Such a course wes not only inconvenient, but ac-
tually unjust. (Hear, hear.) When no name was given,
the statement might apply to all the landlord@ of Ireland.
Sir N. W. BARRON owned that he felt great
doubt and great anxiety about the Irish poor-law, and he
thought it jolt, right, and expedient, that it should be made
a temporary measure.
Mr. ROSS also admitted that the poor-law was a measure
attended with doubt and hazard, but he thought they were
in that position that they must risk something, and heshould
deeply lament if what pared elsewhere placed them in such
a position as to oblige them to do all their work flyer again.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said the people of England were nearly
tired of sending their money over to Ireland and receiving
back paupers in return. He was glad to hear from the noble
lord that he was determined to make the poor-law a really
effective measure. If the wild ardour of some individuals
elsewhere were continued the government would need to
par not merely a vagrancy bill, but a staingent " lunacy"
bill for Ireland.
Mr. TRELAWNY hoped the government would " show
their teeth" by resolutely persisting in their measure.
The house then went into committee.

On clause 2,
Mr. P. SCROPE moved an addition to the clause, ex-
plaining that parties coming under its operation on account
of desertion of family or such like offence, should have been
previously offered a maintenance by the pariah, or that
me►ns of employment were within their power.
Mr. B. ESCOTT asked whether it was true that under an
old statute, vagrants in Ireland were liable to transportation ?
Mr. SHAW said it was true that there was an act to that
effect, but it was nearly obsolete.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he had known instances where
such a law had been put in force, but they had been cases of
prostitutes and such like.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he way informed that
the law was put in force occasionally with regard to what, in
England, were known as disorderly persons, but not as re-
garded common vagrants.
Mr. SHAW admitted that the act was one which might
be beneficially repealed ; and
Mr. B. ESCOTT said his worst suspicions regarding the
act had been confirmed.

- ---•
Mr. HENLEY, with respect to the amendment, thought
it went too far.

Sir D. NORItEYS observed, that sometimes the vagrant
might have no legal settlement in the parish in which he '
committed his offence.
Some conversation ensued, which terminated on
Sir G. GREY promising to consider the amendment at a
fature stage.
The clause Ins then agreed to. On clause 3,
Mr. M. O'FERRALL observed that there was throughout
Ireland a feeling highly sympathetic with a class of persons
who, from misfortune. had been reduced to seek alms from
:he population Mum' rud distinct
from the clam of sturdy vagrants. It would be creating an
universal hostilitT to the bill in Ireland were it attempted to
enforce its previous alike against every description of alms-
makers. The bill, too, as it stood, might be put in effect
even against those thousands of industrious persons who
annually migrated to England for harvest work, and who,
on their way, solicited hospitality and aid.
Sir 0. GREY did not apprehend that the classes in
question had any reason to fear the results from the present
meaner, suggested by his hon. friend. The bill did not at
all contemplate such persons.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL suggested that the discretion as to
the cues in which the measure should be put into operation
should be vested, not in particular magistrates, but in the
poor-law commissioners.
After more discussion,
Mr. YOUNG thought that the task of distinction might
safely be left to the magistrates.
Mr. P. SCRGPE suggested a proviso to this effect
" Provided it mu be proved that the vagrant could have been
relieved in his own union, or had other means of maintaining
himself."

Sir R. FERGUSON opposed the proviso.
Mr. M. OTERRALL thought that the proviso proposed
would nullify the cisme altogether.
Mr. MONAHAN said that the magistrate, in the sound
exercise of his discretion, could fully answer the end which
the hon. member for Strout had in view of properly defining
vagMESCOTT hoped that the hon. member would not
divide the committee, but would wait until he saw what was
done with the Irish poor-law in another place.
The gallery was cleared fora division, but none took place.
the hon. member having withdrawn his proviso. The clause
was then agreed to.
The remaining clauses were then agreed to, and the house
resumed. The report to be received on Monday next.
POOR RELIEF SUPERVISION (IRELAND) BILL.
(No. 2.)
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Sir It. FERGUSON wished to have some explanation as
to the points in which this bill differed from the English bill.
This bill was perpetual, while the English bill was only for
five years. He thought it would be much better if parlia-
ment were given an opportunity of revision in a future sea-
sion. There were other minor points of differences which
he thought also required explanation.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, it was intended to assimilate the
bill in duration to the English bill. The principle was
generally the acme.—The house then went into committee.
On clause 1,
Mr. P. SC ROPE expressed his regret that the carrying
out of the measure should he intruded to a gentleman who
bad expressed himself so strongly against out-door relief.
Mr. LABOUCHERE regretted that the hon. member
should have taken that opportunity to make an attack on
Mr. Twieffeton. In hie opinion it was highly improper to
discuss a public measure with reference to probable future
appointments under it.
Mr. J. YOUNG defended Mr. Twixtleton as an able and
efficient public servant.
Mr. F. FRENCH thought that Ireland had reason to
complain that none of the chief appointments were entrusted
to Mailmen.
Mr. SHAW old that Irishmen bad never less region to
complain oa tbat wore than at the present moment.
The rewaxing clauses were weed to.
Sir R. FERGUSON piapiapi tb• following dare:
Aed be it erslail. that la may ase Is width a board d gereataa•
dll, walla am math ailar reialart say ragas order,
or vagebaka anal *dr 011•1161110.111 vale
aaa s t S
auk Isla Om a
a andala, amadia tag beg limanotattral,
Gram ay iltalan. thay hossed tam aim wry o/
matsft Mae aeoulaisms; 'Main ad altar tie receipt
sudismasegaignsesel Re erw elm& ithwasidel. arash ea* order.
or esaaldlaa arlime twastar wad at ala mink sad
as bow, Ili= las eise obi Mao Isla la Or trAinatzmai ay
the bad laatemt assall, as la dr can at a peed

After a sheet muvereation the dame wee withdrawn, the
lees resumed end the report was ordered to be received on
Monday.
POOR REMOVAL (ENOLAND AND SCOTLAND)

BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill, end in
answer to • question from Sir D. NORIIITS,
Sir G. GREY said, with reference to the removal of Irish
rupee, the present law was quite inoperative, sad the
object of the bal was, when Irish paupers applied Ibr relief,
to give power to • magistrate to examine them at sea, sad
mike an order for their remove], instead of allowing flan
to crowd together in holes and cellars, ea WM the Can Is
Liverpool, and then spread themselves over the country,
carrying contagion. disuse., and misery wherever they went.
Sir J. GRAHAM approved of the bill, bat thought it
would fall far short of the object. By the present law me
p-non could be removed to Ireland without some owe meow
raying them—that difficulty would be removed by the pre
sent measure. The necessity wag pressed on the government
of bringing forward each a bill as that before the house, and,
perhaps, it went r far as it would be well to go while the
cpmemon of the relief of the Irish poor wee pending in ane-
thee leer)—but which he hoped would soon
become the law of the land—(bear, hear) —and it would
then become nowerary to legislate farther on this subject.
Mr. P. SCROPE thought that this question omit to he
taken into serious consideration, and that by a law of settle-
went for Ireland, or some other means, the continued inusi.
radon of Irish paupers might be prevented in the places
where it originated.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that the speech of the hon. member
for Stroud only proved what his continued and constant
attacks on the landlords of Inland heretofore evinced,
namely, his anxiety I. legislate for Ireland to the benefit of
England.
Mr. CARDWELL thought that the language of the bon
member for Roscommon, was but an indifferent return to

r7.l.lllß't°
847..

the people of this country for their exertions in behalf of
the poor of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. W. BARRON doubted Has km. gentleman had
read the bill. Its object was to give a mammary jori-diction
to any gusrdian, relieving ollsar, or overseer, to take and
convey before any two Makes eithe pew*, without summons
or warrant, any pew panes who they mien have realism to
believe was liable dabs samereed from England. Was not
that alaw coninterda tal same ofjuatiee, and better suited to
Catislaadivora tam ea this essatry ?
Laid SAN DON mid that then was no intentinn of sto
semi from 0111a11/111111•1 the channel. He thought
the et the-lea. Woo* was hardly called for after
the eir haw evinced towards the Irish poor not
only in a persaiary [point of view, but in encountering the
treof pestilence by his constituents. (Hear, hear.)
regard to the bill before the house, its object
was to enable them to carry out the existing law, by re-
timing a technical difficulty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER concurred
la the praise which had been bestowed on the inhabit rats of
yin rpool, for the manner in which they had acted towards
the It fish poor. With regard to the bill before the house, the
how. hcronm (Sir W. Barron) should know that a person
w. Doe liable to be removed till he became chargeable ; that
wee, had actually received relief for himself, his wife, ra
child. AL the law stood at present, it was necessary to serve
a summons on such a person ; but in the state of things
which preys, led in Liverpool it would be impossible to find
oat all the pea vows who received relief in order to terve them
with ...am and the object of the present bill was
merely to do ask • with that preliminary service.
Mr. WAILLEI.' regretted the tone end language of the
hon. member for Waterford. The people of Ireland had
themselves only to h lame for whatever reproaches were east
upon them, for if Iriw'smen did their duty towards their poor,
the legislation now req aired would not be necess-Ty. Even
the meant Poor-law Bt 11 we, not proposed at their request,
bat in opposition to their wishes. , hear.) This bill
they were discussing had t.he appearance of harshness, but it
would not be so practically. He thought it would be inope-
rative. The great Meta, ge now to the removal of
Irish paupers, was the g teat expense of removing
them, and this would not be remedied by the pre-
sent bill. He understood that th e Poor-law, as a permanent
measure, was defeated elsewhere, . and if so, it was time that
the voice of the English people alto old be raised in favour of
the Irish poor. (Cheers.)
Mr. FORBES did not think the Ir. ish landlords dimmed
all the abuse that had been cast up. them. There were in
Irelsnd, as there were also in England Ind Scotland, soma
landlords who did not do their rimy, but there wets man
good landlord, also in that country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GRAINGER complained that the powers for the
apprehension of persons who were supporeti to be paupers
were far too great, and said that in committee he should pro-
pose to alter thebill in that respect.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL mid the sintlle question
was, whether the legislature would dispense .the com-
mons before the removal took place. It was mint ated that
where the number of paupers was large, the prelimin vf, ser-
mons was a practical defeat of the measure.
Sir R. FEROUSON objected to the bill that it merely
gave power to transport the poor to the Irish seaports. ?do
provision was made for passing them into the interior. The
only result would be to relieve the English seaport towns at
the eacense of the Irish.
The. bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Monday.
POST-OFFICE- ARRANGEMENTS IN THE