The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-08 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY ,MKING JULY, 8, 1851...

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con-
sidered :—St. Patrick's Cathedral (Dublin) Bill ; York,
Newcastle, and Berwick Railway (Abandonment of Part
of Bishop Auckland Branch, &c.) Bill ; York, Newcastle,
and Berwick Railway (Branch to West Durham Railway,
&c.) Bill.
The following bills were read a third time and passed
Cameron's Coalbrook Steam Coal and Swansea and
Loughor Railway (No. 1) Bill • Cubitt's Estate Bill ;
Kensington Impepvernent Bill; Wexford Free Bridge Bill.
The following bills were considered :—Farmers' Estate
Society (Ireland) Bill ; General Reversionary and Invest-
' ment Company Bill; Lincolnshire Estuary Bill; Man-
, cheater. Boston, Matlock, and Midland Junction Itiiilway
Bill.
Upton's Estate Bill was read a second time.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. Harvest, a new writ was ordered
for Knaresborough, in the room of Mr. W. S. Lascelles, de-
ceased.
ST. ALBANS ELECTION PETITION.
Mr. BANK ES gave notice that he would to-morrow (this
day) submit a resolution, having reference to the case of tae
persons required to give evidence before the St. Albans
election petition committee, and who have withdrawn them-
selves from the kingdom.
INHABITED HOUSE DUTY BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
Mr. EWART moved the following addition to clause I :
" And be it enacted that stories of buildings, as in the case
of model lodging houses, or of flats, as in Scotland, or parts
thereof occupied as separate dwellings, and assessed sepa-
rately to the poor's rate, shall be held to be inhabited dwell-
ing houses under this act, and shall be subject to the same
liabilities an exemtions as ar provided with regard to
Inhabited dwelling houses undere this net, nnd the schedule
dont° annexed."
Mr. HUME approved of the house tax because it was a
property tax, and he wished the government to consider
whether this tax should not be made as general as possible,
allowing no exemptions of any kind. It was a tax which
they could raise or lower without altering the machinery of
collection, which was a great advantage. lie thought the
time was coming when taxation and representation ought
to be joined together more closely than they had been. lie
could not divine what improvement in the franchise was to
take place next year, unless it were an extension to a coon-
deratile degree, founded on some basis of taxation such
sr= set an example of in the bill of last year fur
Mr. SLANEY supported the amendment.
Mr. A. IIASTIE had taken the trouble to ascertain the
effect of the measure upon the city with which he was con-
nected, and lie found in Glasgow alone that there were up-
wards of 3,000 persons who did not contribute to the window
tai, hat who would hereto pay the inhabited house duty. lie
was skulk satisfied that in every other borough in Scotland
a similar state of things would be found to exist; and so
far from the measure affording relief to that country, it
would materially increase the taxation of many districts
within it. If the tax were made a universal one, that would
lie a different matter; but he hoped that if the right hon. '1
gentleman meant to maintain it on the footing proposed. he
would accede to the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, with ego
(creme to the extension of the franchise, would
state that, without committing; any body else, his opisl
nion was very much the same as animated the hon. gentle-
man, namely, that the payment of this tel was the best
mode of regulating it that could be applied. (Cheers) lie
agreed further with his hon. friend that it would be much
better to resist the proposed exemption now, than to add
one that might be made the pretext for new exemptions. If
the flats belonged to different persons, they were already
exempted ; but it the whole house was one person's property,
it ought to pay. (Hear, hear.) Applying his hon. friend's
argument about horizontal and vertical divisions of a house,
it was obvious that the latter had as much right to be
iscus,il as the former; and so if a person rented two or
three rooms one above the other, they too must he ex-
empted. If they once gave up the principle that a
house was a house, they would soon find few in
which some portion would not let as lodgings, and so they
would escape the tax altogether. lie could state in
conclusion that the amount which the window duty in Scot-
land yielded was about 130,0001., whereas the estimated
produce of the house duty was 50,0001., showing a saving
to Scotland of 80,0101.
After a few words from Mr. N
G. DCCAN,
Sir G. PECHELL begged to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer how the valuation was to be mule upon that
for the poor-rate, or on that for the income-tax?
Mr. W. WILLIAMS hoped that as the Chancellor of the
Exchequer hail expressed his concurrence in the views of
the hon. member for Montrose, and hail promised to recon-
sider the subject next year, he would abandon this tax
altogether for the present session; for he (Mr. Williams)
was convinced that from the present state of the revenue
the right hon. gentleman would find it unnecessary. (Hear.)
Mr. PACKE regretted that the forms of the house would
not allow him to bring forward his motion to reduce the
sum of houses to be exempted to 10/. instead of 201. ; when
however, the hon. member for Montrose moved his amend.
meld at the bringing up of the report he would then intro-
duce it.
After a few words from Mr. L. lIETWORTH,
Mr. DISRAELI congratulated the house on the im-
pirtant declaration which they had heard from the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, and which had been repeated by
the hon. member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams), namely,
that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would make an
examination of the subject, and report Iris opinion to the
house next year. (Laughter.)
Mr. WILLIAMS repeated his original statement.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That was
the hon. gentleman's version of what he had said, but not
his own. (Laughter.)
Mr. DISRAELI thought that neither the house nor the
country could console themselves on their present financial
position by the communication which they had received.
He (Mr. Disraeli) considered the bill as extremely injudi-
cious and ; and he much regretted that the forms
tithe house should have prevented the hon. member (Mr.
Packs) from moving the amendment of which he had given
notice, and of which the effect would have been to have se-
cured a revenue by the house duty, at least equal to what
they would lose by the house tax. (Hear, hear.)
In answer to a question by Mr. bleliil•kr,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
was proposed to include all houses and gardens, but not
farm buildings.
Mr. HENLEY was glad to hear the right hon. gen-
tleman make that statement.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (in answer
to Sir 0. Pechell) referred to the schedule of the act of
the 48th George LII., chap. 5. They would adopt the best
mode of obtaining the annual value of houses that they
could.
The motion was withdrawn.
Clauses 1 and '2 having been agreed to,
On Clause 3,
Mr. A. HASTIE moved an amendment to exempt certain
public buildings, respecting which disputes arose in conse-
quence of a person residing in the premises for the purpose
of taking care of them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if
these places were really public buildings they were already
exempt. If they were occupied, they ought to pay. (Hear,
lieu.)
Sir C. BURRELL said that questions might arise as to
the precise meaning of " inhabited."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
proposed to adopt the definition given in the old House Tax
Act.
Mr. H. WILLYAMS said he had given notice of a simi-
lar amendment, on the ground that all scientific bodies
ought to he exempted from taxation.
.Ir. HUME suggested that these various amendments
should be postponed till next session. (Laughter.)
The committee then divided on Mr. Hashes amendment,
For the amendment 4O
_

Againet it
Me. W. WILLIAMS moved the ineertioo of the follow-
*. wee :—" All homes not liable to be mewed to pay
ear IS wiadoin tdtell sot be sessold or liable to b. no.

the saigpie." He was al lb,
to TO
M this tsz,mhish
Mr. r AN erearales the amendseset Two *remand
of his 'turas *lto had net paid window deny would
• to this ma. which they Omen a very strange
'relief. This would Melly prism upon eleeke,
shim a, and others of the humble class, who were ill able
to hear any additional taxation.
-Mr W..-a did not think it fair that bill which was
ammeautation of tams shouidAring in e.class
Whil had dot bMfere been taxed... ,•
—.Tho_CHANCELLOR of Oa EXtHEQUER hid he
was unable to discover any principle in this amendment.
It would he ememlingly unjust to exempt a house of 201. or
301. a year because it had not paid window duty, while
others of the same duty were taxed. (Hear.) He had
stated on introducing the measure that a somber of houses
• hitherto tented would be exempt, while ethers would be
brought andercherge, thus striking a bedew. •
The amendment was formally erm. and the
clause was agreed to, as were the remising Maws&
The blank in the schedule was Mimi sp "1S&"
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved the iimpullas is the lasi&
of the following words :—" Foe jerededemil er ealladdlog
purposes, or by any person." The stem of this aolisind•
mot was to render houses occupied for sett purpose, '
rateable as shops, at 6d. in the pound. It would diet the
houses of medical men, attorneys, and teachers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the
question had been raised in a more extended sense' and ne-
gatived by the house, in an earlier stage of the bill. Shies
were rated, lower on account of their being exempt from
the late window-duty ; and if the exemption were carried
further, they might make it universal at once. Medical
men might receive patients in their dining-room, and on
that ground claim exemption for their whole house. He
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should resist the amend-
ment.
Mr. EWART did not eco why a school should not be
entitled to the same consideration as a shop.
After a few words from Lord R. Geosvesoa,
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he would not trouble the earns&
tee by pressing to • division, and the amendment was cars.
queritly negatived.
The schedule, as amended, was then agreed to.
Mr. DUNCOMBE then moved, as an additional clams:
" Provided always, and be it enacted, that no mend we
omission to pay,:within any limited period, the duties sowserd
under the authority of this act, in respect of any hemmer
other building, shall prevent any person from being ad-
mitted or retained on the register or list of persons
entitled to vote in the election of a member or mem-
bers
to serve in parliament for any city or borough,
or from voting at any such election." In 1840, Lord
Melbourne's ministry brought in a bill for the registration
of parliamentary electors. They exempted the electors from
paying the assessed taxes as a condition of their registra-
tion, and left the parochial taxes as they were. The mime
on the back of that bill were those of Lord John Russell,
Lord Palmerston, Sir J. C. Hobhouse, Mr. Attorney-Oese-
ral (now Lord Campbell); and Mr. Solicitor-General (now
Lord Chancellor Truro) ; and therefore he only asked her
Majesty's ministers to do now that which they felt no hesi-
tation about in 1840. (Hear, hear)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER resisted the
clause. Surely there could be no hardship in compelling
parties to pay a tax the payment of which constituted their
right to vote. It was only in accordant, with the constitu-
tional principle of representation bared upon taxation.,
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Hung supported the clause, as also did Mr. Bbo•
StIEILTON.
The committee then divided :
Fur the clause 6O
Against ll9-59
Sir DE L. EVANS then stored the following chime
" That in the case of any premises occupied with a dwelling
house, and heretofore exempt from the rate or duty in
respect of the windows or lights therein, and which pre-
mises shall be assessed to the rate or dote hereby imposed,
it shall be lawful for the occupier of such premises to
require that the dwelling-house occupied with such pre-
mises shall be assessed at the before-mentioned rate or duty
of 91, and thereupon the said premises shall not be liable
to any rate or duty."
Mr. W. WILLIAMS supported the clause, and
After • few words from the Cueseeteon of the
Excasuusit, who expressed a hope that the hon. and
gallant gentleman would not press to a division,
The clause was withdrawn.
The bill was then reported, and the house resumed.
WOODS AND FORESTS BILL.
The house resumed the committer on this bill, the clauses
of which were agreed to, after much desultory and unim-
portant discussion.
The bill was ordered to be reported on Friday.
SUPPLY.—THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
On the motion Inc going into committee of supply,
Sir D. NORREYS moved ;that the architect of the
New Palace at Westminster lay before the house a report
in detail on the manner in which he would recommend that
the interior decorations of the New House of Commons
should be completed, and that lie be directed to prepare
plans. Ile made heavy complaints respecting the misun-
derstanding between the Coinmissioners and Mr. Barry, the
result of which was, that the New House, notwithetinding
the expense incurred, was a most unsatisfactory building.
The CHANCELLOR of THE EXCHEQUER re-
commended the house not to interfere further in this
matter. He hoped they would have one or two morning
sittings in the New House this session, which would afford
a practical knowledge of its qualities.
After a short discussion, in which Mr. Hume, Sir De
Lacy Evans, Mr. T. Greene, and Mr. Clay. took part:
The motion was negatived without a division.
The house then wcut into committee of
SUPPLY.
On the motion that a sum not exceeding 32,0001. be voted
for defraying the charmer of her Majesty's foreign and
secret service money,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to the motion. Ile looked
upon the expenditure of this money to be similar to that
spent at election,. (A laugh.) That, at all events, was the
public impression. lie moved, as in ameudnient, that the
vote be reduced to 20,0001.
Mr. C. LEWIS denied that this was an extraordinarily
large sum. In the year 1822 the secret service money
voted by that house was 44,5001. In 1526, it rose to 60,5001.
In subsequent years the Tote was reduced. In 1849 it was
35,0001. ; in 18a0 it was again reduced to 35,0001. ; and this
year it was proposes! to take • vote only of 32,110111., which,
should the house agree to it, would be the lowest sum fur
secret service ever granted in this country since 1822. This
was a very moderate amount, in reference to the vast affairs
of the government. Hon. members might be perfectly
satisfied that no portion of the secret service ever went to
the purposes of corruption at elections.
Colonel siutHour had, in pursuance of his duty as an
honest man, always voted against this secret service money.
Ile attached uo weight whatever to the attempted defence
of the vote offered by the hon. gentleman who had just sat
down. Governments, in these matters, always stick up fur
each other ; and, of course, the hon. gentleman was nut
likely to cry " stinking fish." There was something, to him
sufficiently suspicious in the very adjective "
tsecret. "The
money was wanted for • good purpose, or i was net. if
for a good purpose, let that purpose be openly ex-
plained. If for a bad purpose , let it be not voted
at all. To him it was perfectly obvious that the govern-
ment was ashamed to state what it really did with these
annual votes. Would the Chancellor of the Exchequer
undertake to stand up and deny that the money was de-
voted to entertaiuments in Downing-street? (Laughter.) ,
Who could tell whether or not this money went to the en-
tertainment of Cardinal Wiseman? (Great laughter.)
Might not part of the sum have gone to bribing the car-
dinal to come over here? (Renewed laughter.) Who
could assert that it did not go to the disgraceful purpose of
paying spies? Such a vote was most improper and most
unworthy of the house ; and he called upon the hon. mem-
ber for Lambeth to divide the house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thought that the time had fully come when
they ought to resolve todispense with this secret service mo-
ney. If in peculiar circumstances secret services were re-
quires!, the government had ample means available out of
the 10,0001. voted for this purpose in the civil list. He
should therefore vote with the hon. member for Lambeth
on this occasion.
Lord PALMERSTON could not conveniently tell his
hon. friend how this money was expended, but he could
fairly enough show how it was not expended. He could
assure his hon. friend that no part of it was ever expended
in bribery. at elections. (" Oh, oh," from Col. Sibthorp.)
On this point his hon. friend might be trite at ease. The
amount of secret service money, as had been stated, had of
late years been greatly reduced, and was in gra-
dual progress of being still further reduced ; but
at no time would it be possible for a govern-
ment to avoid spending certain occasional amounts
I which might be essential for the public service to
keep secret. Information of an important character was
from time to time required, which could not possibly be
procured if the names ut the persons by whom that inform-
ation was afforded were to be made public. [The noble lord
was most indistinctly heard.]
Mr. DISRAELI had for many years given a
silent vote in favour of the estimate for "secret
service," and on this occasion he begged to be
permitted to explain why he would now repeat
that vote. They had heard on this occasion a very remark-
able charge preferred by an hon. gentleman who repre-
sented a large constituency, and who always spoke with
statistical accuracy. That hon. gentleman had stated that
there was nothing in the state of our colonies or
in the condition of the continent which would justify
on our part any extraordinary secret expenditure..
He (Mr. Disraeli) had received that intimation with
considerable satisfaction. (Laughter.) He had not been
until now aware that colonial and continental affairs were
in such a state that we could congratulate ourselves on a
prospect of perpetual tranquillity. The hon. member, with
these views as to the continent mules to the colunies,bad ex-
pressed a belief which he, of course, would not have ex-
peened had his data been insufficient, that a very general
belief among the public was that this secret service money
was really expended in influencing elections, and in form-
ing the character of that house. (Laughter.) Now, this
was a wonderful year—the year of the Crystal Palace—the
year when distinguished foreigners were invited to frequent
this csuutry, and who, by some mysterious agency, might
be present at the debates of that house—(laughter)—
and having fur fourteen years silently voted in favour of
secret service money, he must be allowed to enter his pro-
test against the charge which had now been made, and to
declare that in giving his vote he had no. intention what-
ever to offer the government corrupt means of influencing
cleetioas. ("Hear, hear," and laughter.) He did not
wish foreigners to suppose that elections in this country
were conducted onso meagre • scale, that the miserable sum
of 32,0001. would enable the government to exercise any
perceptible MUSDOC (Great laughter.) Why, a blue book

in tb•

tittabowed that the election of a single member
constituency of Norwich had cost more than
(Much laughter.) To let foreigners leave our
reentry with seek an idea would be to aft a stigma on
ourselves, sad kr protested against it. (Continued laugh-
me.) There wen few persons who had a greater respect
tot dr Mo. old gallant gentleman (Colonel Bibthorp) than,
bo llaudt WI. and there was no one who would mom
wag* loAr to that honourable and gallant
Illomat oploils--oaughter)—but be could not believe
!Et this PM had been expended by the ggooesss ,
-ft eneouragffig the movements of Cudieal
Sr.(
(Great laughter.) He must be understood W
most emphatically against the tone of exaggeration
Illadieettability which had characterised the remarks of des
hen. member for Lambeth.
Mr. COBDEN saw, in the nature of the remarks which.
had been made upon this vote, the best ponilde orgeessest
the proposal of such a vote. If the purposes to
proposal
the money was devoted were honourable, let the
ens., like the other votes, be detailed and explained. The
Interpretations put upon the vote in that house were pre-
cisely the interpretations which the public would put upea
it. He would not say what kb oplaitsa of
the object of the vote was ; bet he es:tasty
bad heard before all the explanations beard that
night, and a good deal more. The whole course of
the discussion he (Mr. Cobden) contended, clearly showed
how impolitic a proposal this was. If the hon. member for
Lambeth divided the house, he would vote with the bon.
member—his object being to get rid of the vote altogether—
but, in the mean time, being ready to cut it down to 20,000 r. i
After some further discussion,
The house divided, when there appeared
For the amendment
140-99
Against it
The tote was then agreed to.
TIN next vote was 226,5621. for printing and stationery.
Mr. 11131 E said there was an item of 6,0001. for the
London Gozelte. The Ga:ette was published, in his
lopinion, in a very injurious manner. the government
raised by it upwards of 15,0001. It would be much
better in his opinion to reduce the price and give it
a more general circulation. Government ought not to be
traders in newspapers. There was also a sum of 300/. for
the Exhibition. (Hear, hear, front Col. Sibthorp.) That
was a paltry sum, and he should have wished that the Ex-
hibition had not owed anything to the public. He would
also observe that the present system of allowing a monopoly
of printing acts of parliament was bad.
Mr. C. LEWIS said originally the London Gazette was
voted for as a separate establishment. With respect 1
to the price being too high, he had only to say it was
not the object of the government to publish a news-
paper. If they were to do so, an objection would be
made that they were interfering with the trade of news-
metro. .
It
wnda.thmeeeerelyzelfMorcctihulcdphuardly be
ryase of consideredpulhing in that 1
announcements, and complying with the requirements of
various acts of parliaments, that certain announcements
should appear in the Gazette. With respect to the
promulgation of the acts, the distribution he believed was
under tee superintendence of the officers of the House and
he was not aware that any diminution could be effected.
On the entire vote, however, there had been a diminution.
In 1819 it was 277,0001. • in 1850 260,0001. ; and in the,
present year it was 226:0001., showing a diminution of
51,0001. since 1849.
Mr. REYNOLDS complained that out of the whole
isum of 226,0001., Ireland received only 14,8861., while last
year she received 19,9401.
I Colonel SIBTILORP protested against a charge of 3001.
Ifur that nonsensical and absurd exhibition of the industry,
as it was called, of all nations, notwithstanding that between
200,1,001. and 300,0001. had been drawu out of the pockets
lof the people for it. (Laughter.)
Mr. WILLIA:4IS hoped for the sake of the Exhibition
'that the sum would be paid back again. (Cheers.)
1, Mr. LABOUCILERE said that the 3001. was for the or-
dinary expenses of a royal commission, and he thought it
would not be for the dignity of the crown that they should
be paid by private peewits. (Hear, hear.)
In answer to Mr. Srooftea,
Mr. LAIIOUCHEItE added that the charge was for sta-
tionery required for the ordinary business transacted by the
Loyal commission.
After some conversation, the vote was agreed to.
Thu next vote was a sum not exceeding 13,0001., for law
*mites, paid by the solicitor to the Treasury.
Agreed to.
The next vote was a sum not exceeding 8,6701., for the
expenses of the prosecution of offenders against the laws
eslating to gold and silver coin.
Alderman COPELAND expressed an opinion that if the
Ipower of summary conviction, and of inflictin two or three
1 months' imprisonment, were accorded to the magi.trates,
the crime of " smashing " would be almost entirely done
away with.
The vote was agreed to.
The next vote was • sum not exceeding 17,7001. to de-
fray the expenses incurred by sheriff's, de.
Agreed to.
The next vote was a sum not exceeding 9,0801. to defray
the salaries of' the Insolvent Commissioners.
The vote was agreed to, as were the following:-87,8101.,
criminal prosecutions and other law charges in Scotland.
60,0001., criminal prosecutions and other law charges ill
Ireland.
35,5001. for the metropolitan police in Dublin.
200,0001., cost of prosceutious at sessions and assizes in
England, formerly paid out of county rates.
Mr. II C.ME asked if the recommendation of a committee
up stairs, for reducing the number of officers employed iu
prosecutions, was to be carried out?
Mr. C. LEWIS said the committee had recommended
the appointment of public prosecutors all over England, to
be paid by the government, as in Scotland. The govern-
ment had not thought it wise yet to introduce so extensive
a change ; but every care was taken to prevent unnecessary

expense.
Mr. V. SMITH thought it was a mistake in the first in-
stance to place these expenses on the consolidated fund, and
thereby remove them from local control. (Hear, hear.) ins
should like to know whether a scale had been prepared by
the Home Secretary by which the expenses of prosecutions
over the various counties might be more equalised.
Mr. C. LEWIS intimated that it was intended that such
a scale should be adopted. Proceedings, however, in such
matters required careful and deliberate consideration.
The vote was agreed to, as were 221,2691. to defray the
charges of government prisons at home.
117,1901. for maintenance of prisoners in county gaols, &c.
08,3601. to defray the expenses of the transportation of
convicts.
Mr. HUME urged the postponement of this vote until
they should have information as to the way in which the
convicts who had lately been sent to Van Diemen's Land
hail been receive'!. He understood that the inhabitants
would not admit or employ a single convict after a given
period, and he thought that they should not give the
Colonial-office the means of doing mischief. He should
certainly oppose the vote in the meantime.
Mr. C. LEWIS mid the government had already done
something towards decreasing the extent of transportation.
The total number of prisoners kept in this country last
year had been 9,8i8; this year the number was 10,576.
Coder these circumstances he trusted the committee would
see that the government had done all in their power to
diminish transportation to the colonies, and that the vote
I would be agretll to.
Mr. HUME said his complaint was that they were land-
ing prisoners on the shores of Van Diemen's Land not only
against the protest of the inhabitants, but against a des-
patch of Earl Grey promising tkat no more convicts should
he seat. (Hear, hear.) if they wished to maintain the
peace of the colonies they must keep faith with them.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman COPELAND thought the vote should at
least be postponed for a few days.
The CHANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER claimed for
the government the credit of doing what they could to
diminish the extent of transportation. The figures quoted
by his right hon. friend (Mr. C. Lewis) amply demon-
strated this. It was, however, impossible to do away with
transportation all at once. It must be gradually reduced.
'Transportation must be continued to a certain extent.
Government were not prepared to stop it at once, and he
strongly questioned the propriety of a sudden alteration of
the system on which we had been accustomed to deal with
our yrtsoners.
Alter a few words from Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, who
protested against the system of letting convicts loose
amongst the settlers, who did not want them,
Colonel DUNNE observed there were several districts
in North America where convicts could be advantageously
sent, as the localities much required them.
Mr. HENLEY said the labour market in this country
was already overstocked, and, in consequence, he thought
those inmates of penitentiaries when let loose on the world,
no matter how thoroughly reformed, would not have the
same chance of obtaining a livelihood as those who had
been always unblemished members of society. Therefore
transportation, iu his opinion, could not be done away
with.
Mr. DUNCAN protested against any further shipments
to Van Dietuen's Land.
Mr. V. SMITH expressed his regret at the diminution
of the vote for free emigration this year. It should be also
recollected, all the convicts were not sent to Van Diemen's '
Land. In the present day, many were sent to Bermuda I
and other settlements.
Captain HARRIS thought the great mistake occurred at 1,
the commencement, in making any of the colonies penal.
Mr. AGLIONBY protested against the introduction of
any of these parties to Van Diemen's Land, as property in
that colony, on which large sums had been expended, had
become almost worthless in consequence of the increase of
the convict population, and the great demoralisation that
resulted.
Lord J. RUSSELL said her Majesty's government had
experienced great difficulty in dealing with this matter. It
certainly was a great evil that the number of convicts in
this country should have increased, and that the jails and
penitentiaries should be overcrowded with them. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman who had just sat down com-
plained of the evils produced by the presence of convicts in
Van Diemen's Land. Now, though Bermuda and Gibraltar
were stations where convicts to a certain number might be
sent, yet it was plain that the great extra and additional
number could only be sent to Australia. (Hear, hear.)
There were portions of that colony—Moreton Bay, for exam-
ple—ready to receive these convicts, though the agitation
sow going on there was directed against the reception of
convicts in any part of that colony. (Hear, hear.) The
boo. gentleman who last spoke, as well as the hon. mem-
ber for Montrose, had mixed up in this matter a charge
of breach of faith against the Secretary for the Colonies.
(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume.) He (Lord J. Russell)
believed that charge was unfounded. When the present
government came into office they found that for a number
of years a great many convicts bad been sent to Van
Moses Land, and that the Secretary of State is the
peeling adminia. tratioa, impressed with the great evils

that such over-traluportation caused, issued directions
then transportation to Van Diemen's Land should be
suspended for two years. (Hear, hear.) There was a sub-
sequent plan in contemplation by the Colonial Secretary of I
the }venous ministry, by which transportation was not to
be done away with, bat by which a certain portion of the
punishment was to be suffered in this country, and the 1
convicts were then to go out, not es transported
felons, but as exalts, with the condition that they were
not to leave the Australian colony. (Hear, hear.)
That plan was afterwards changed into sending them there I
with tickets of leave, but the plan was not changed in re-
spect to Van Diemen's Land, or any of the colonies where
convicts had gone at first. He was inclined to think that
the governor of Van Diemen's Land might have misunder-
stood some of the despatches, and so had held language
which had brought on this mistake. He should not now
enter upoa the great subject which the hon. member for
Montrose had broached. It must be obvious to the house
that to maintain the system of transportation, whether
to diminish it to a certain degree or abolish it
altogether, it was impossible to make a sudden change.
The honourable member did not seem to consider
the fact~—that here were persons convicted; their trials
over, and placed in the prisons of the country, and that if
the house were to come to a resolution to abolish transporta-
tion, they must make some provision for the maintenance of
those prisoners at a much greater expense than the cost of
the present system, and producing great evil to the country.
Every means ought to be taken, and he held were taken, to
ascertain in what parts of Auat;alia there was a willingness
to receive convicts. The number sent would be very much
guided by that consideration. So long as it was the law
'that certain offenders mart be transported, provision must
be made for transportation.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that some consideration ought
to be given to the universal expression of disapprobation by
the colonies of the present system of transportation.
Mr. EWART commented on the contamination spread
into colonial society by the transportation of convicts, and as
regarded Van Diemen's Land he deprecated the concentra-
tion of contamination upon the people there. While he
thought injustice had been done to that colony he was of
opinion that an improved means of deportation was the
only sound system.
Mr. HUME reminded the government that he had opposed
transportation to Van Diemen s Land and Australia front
the first. He thought transportation ought to be continued,
but under a very different system—one that would conciliate
the colonies.
Mr. NAPIER said he saw a charge for religious instruc-
tion on board the convict shim, and wished to kn w if pro
vision was made for all denominations of religion, or whether
iu a case where the majority on board were Roman catho-
lics, they were not adequately provided for, while no pro-
vision was made for other stets ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE was understood to say that when
a small number was on board it was obviously impossible to
provide fur all their religious differences.
The committee then divided :
For the vote
Against it -89
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress.
The Stock in Trade Bill was read a second time.
The Loan Societies Bill was read a third time.
The Turnpike Trusts Arrangements Bill was read a se-
cond time.
On the motion of Sir It. Fritovsox, the following
returns were agreed to :—Public Works (Ireland) ; return
of the amount, 1. of all grants ; 2. of all SUM advanced in
aid of relief works; 3. fur arterial drainage ; 4. for the im-
rovement of the Shannon ; fur the employment of the
labouring pour; 6. for the improvement of landed property
under the commissioners of public works in Ireland. And
a general statement of the other transactions of the Com-
missioners of Public Works (Ireland), from their appoint-
ment under the Act 1 and 2 Wm. IV., c. 33 (1831); show-
ing the total amount of Exchequer Bills and money issued
to them, interests calculated at the rate of three per cent.
per annum ; the amount of payments into the Exchequer,
interest calculated at the game rate ; the balances of loans
and interests outstanding, and the estimated profit to the
sth day of January 18.51.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that
in consequence of the absence of Sir G. Grey the County
Courts Extension Bill wouldnot be proceeded with at twelve
o'clock this day, but the Board of Health Bill would be
brought forward instead.
A bill for the amendment of the law with regard to
letters patent was brought up and read a first time.
The house adjourned at one o'clock.