The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-16 00:00:00

9.ERMAN ANNFRATION.

Mr. ANSTElfiire---1:oiicet1Tat;;;;;ow (this day)
he would put a question to the noble lord the Foreign
Secretary in reference to the joint protest of England and
France against the annexation by Germany of non-German
territory.

SELECT CO:

Mr. EWART rose to move that the number of members
composing select committees (except when special Cattle be
shown to the satisfaction of the house for enlarging that
number) be seven ; that the members appointed to serve on
select committees be selected by a committee of selection ;
that it be the duty of the committee of selection to choose
only such members to serve on select committees u may de-
clare their ability to give their regular attendance at such
committees, and that the committee of selection ascertain this
fact from such members beforehand; that it be an object of
the committee of selection, in the formation of select com-
mittees, to combine a due proportion of the younger mem-
bers with the more experienced members of the house;
that three members be held a sufficient quorum of members
for select committiev, &e. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. DENISON objected to the course sought to be
pursued by the hon. gentleman who submitted this prepo-
sition to the louse.

7317 also objected to the resolutions before
the house.

Mr. HOBHOU SE thought the present time very well
calculated for inquiry without waiting till next year. He
considered it most unjust to compel hon. gentlemen to
serve on private committees, where all was dry detail, and
then to deny them the right of serving on public commit-
tees. He thought these privileges should be alike open to
all, andnot matters of favour, as at present. lie therefore
should support the motion of his hon. friend.
Mr. C. LEWIS said that unless they introduced into
public committees the practice—which he thought would
be impossible—of allowing counsel to state the cue before
the committee% the'- cou.il not reduce their committees to
the number proposed by the hon. member for Dumfries.
He thought it would give rise to greater evils than those
that existed at present.
Mr. HUME said that though they had frequently changed
the number of members that should constitute committees,
they had never as to the mode of selection adopted the right
course. At present, members had not a fair opportunity of
showing their talents for business, but the didlculty really
wu to get members to attend. He would therefore make
it compulsory on every member to attend, but he would not 11
appoint
rpowinotgd
tamheamvelieeo snitoomni.motire nomination made
onee.comunti to committee. (Ha ist2, es
chance to every member. He could not agree to travtepart of
his hon. friend's motion which would make three members
a sufficient quorum.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that this was an important
question,
miiand therefore, before they made a change they
be certain that the change would be an improvement.
After a few words from Mr. EWART in reply,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he could not consent to the
proposition of his hon. friend, which went further than he
was prepared to go. He would not, however, oppose refer-
ring the subject to a select committee, if the house enter-
tamed that proposition. He did not think that such a cont.
mittee would have a great attendance in the present ses-
sion.
,(Hear.) But if the hon. gentleman brought such a
proposition forward early neat session, he did not think
that either the government or the house would say that the
time was not a proper one for such a motion because the
private committees were in course of being formed.
Mr. EWART then proposed to alter his proposition into
aw foe the appointment of a select committee, but at the

eaggertiiin of Mr. Hume, be withdrew his motion, in con-
"%eises of the observations of the noble lord.
The
motion was consequently withdrawn.
' Lord NAAS moved a resolution, redoing the house to
resolve itself into a committee on a neve day to consider
the present state of the milling interest in Ireland. He
drew a gloomy pietare of the leases sustained by the decay
a the sues lavishing manufacture of corn into meal and
goer ist that reentry, which before 1846 exported 600,000
wrier, of wheaten lour, whereas daring the present
year It had imported of wheat and wheat dour 800,000
quarters, making a differeace of 1,900,000 quarters, the
value of which was not less than 2,600,0001. He read
details furnished by Irish millers of the nuntsier of
I milks idending idle, and of the diminution of capi-
emdrietted- in this trade, and he attributed these
Imes, which had been entirely unforeseen, he said, by the
elitheal of the =wan of 1848, to the 'enormous =porta-
One of Freed Sew. He pointed out the advantages
usjoymil by the French millers in they protection against
the Mennelitkon of foreign 'our and in the privilege of
corn in bond, which would give additional
Clitieg te the increasing exportations of meal from
Francis. So far from the poor being benefited by
this influx of French flour into Ireland, Lord Naas read
statements which purported to show that the price of
that quality of meal consumed by the poor was, under the
present system, greatly enhanced. Ho denied that the
French and Belgian millers were superior to ours ; their
machinery was English. Their power of competing with
English and Irish millers was derived from the cheapness
of labour, their protective laws, and the seal of their go-
vernments to foster native production. By this motion he
meant to ask the house whether it was prepared to continue
a system productive of such evil results to Ireland, and
which was, in reality, a system of protection to the
foreigner.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, the effect of the motion was
not to restore protection to Irish millers, but to revive the
corn laws. The ease of the Irish millers could not be sepa-
rated from that of English millers, and if protection were
given to millers farmers were equally entitled to it. If,
however, the house was of opinion that it should not retrace
its steps and restore protection as a principle, it
would d hide this class by assenting to the motion.
He admitted the existence of distress in the
milling interest, but there was not the slightest ground
for attributing this distress to the alteration of
the corn laws ; the millers had had more to do since
their repeal than before. The importations of breadstu Ifs
had greatly increased, but they consisted mainly of grain,
and 3lr. Labouchere read figured statements, showing that
the millers of the United Kingdom in general, and those of
Ireland in particular, had had more grain to grind since
the repeal of the corn laws than before. He believed that
a great alteration in the circumstances of the mill-
ing trade had been going on before the alteration
of the corn laws; but he was convinced that the
British and Irish millers, as a class, would, in the
long run, like other classes, successfully compete
with all the world. Referring to the great improve.
ment which had taken place among the poorer classes in
Ireland, and which was traced directly to the increased
means of obtaining provisions cheap, he intreated the house
to pause before it sacrificed, upon a partial case, what ought
to be the main object of legislation—the general well-
being of the great body of the people.
31r. J. STUART supported the motion, and dwelt upon
the sußbrings of the milling class, which, like the A est
India class, he said, was to be sacrificed to free trade, and
protested against the doctrine of Mr. Labouchere, that
certain classes must submit to be ruined, because there
could be no change in our commercial policy without ruin
to somebody. The millers of Ireland asked a consideration
of their case, not for their own separate interests, but in
harmony with the interests of the community.
Mr. ANSTEY supported the motion, which was op-
posed by
Mr. ROCHE, who characterised it as a claim for restric-
tion upon the importation of foreign flour, while foreign
corn was to remain exempt from duty, which would benefit
the millers at the expense of the agricultural interest.
Mr. NEWDEGATE, in supporting the motion, made a
general assault upon the theory and system of free trade, of
the baneful effects of which the sufferings of the Irish mil-'
lers, he said, afforded a sample.
Mr. WILSON replied to Mr. NEWDEGTE, from whose
facts he drew opposite conclusions. Ho explained the
regulations to which the French millers were subjected in
grinding foreign wheat, and contended that if they could
import corn from Odessa, grind it in their own ports, re-
export it to Ireland, and undersell our millers, who
could bring corn direct front the same place, there must
be some inferiority in the latter, and he pointed out
certain improvements in the foreign grinding machinery.
Improved mills, were, however, extending in this country,
which did not look as if our millers were afraid of foreign
competition ; and so far from their labouring under any
disadvantages as compared with the millers abroad, they
enjoyed advantages which the foreign millers would never
have.

Colonel DUNNE regretted that the motion did not go far
enough—every interest in Ireland should be protected.
Lord NAAS having replied,
Mr. MACGREGUIt rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,"
and, being unable to obtain a hearing, moved that the
debate should be adjourned.

Mr. HOME hoped this motion would not be pressed.
The motion for adjournment was withdrawn, and the
house divided on the original motion.
For the motion 93
Against it l2B-35
ST. ALBANS ELECTION.
Mr. BANKES, who had a motion on the paper relative
to the witnesses who had absconded to avoid giving
evidence before tbo St. Albans Election Committee, with-
drew it, and gave notice of it for this day.
CATTLE AND SHEEP STEALING.

Mr. 0. HAMILTON moved for a return of the number
of cases of cattle and sheep stealing reported by the con-
stabulary of the counties of Westmeath and Roscommon
respectively, during each of the three last years ending the
lst day of June' ; of the number of persons commit-
ted for trial or bailed fur such offences ; of the number of
such persons convicted ; of their sentences, and a statement
of the names and cases in which such sentences have been
commuted, or pardons granted, up to the present time;
whether in each case the commutation or pardon was recom-
mended by the judge, and the nature and date of such com-
mutation or pardon.
Lord J. Itusvatt and the Cuatscau.on of the Elena-
Qllna opposed the return as calculated to raise an erroneous
inference.

After a few words from Mr. OTLARERSY, Mr. GROGAN.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE, and COI. DVNNE,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not agree to the motion
as at present framed, as it interfered with the prerogative
of the crown. He hoped, therefore, the hon. gentleman
would not press the motion.
Mr. DISRAELI thought there was much in the motion
to recommend it if the latter part were struck out, namely,
the words, " whether in each case the commutation or par-
don was recommended by tho judge, and the nature and
date of such commutation or pardon." He begged to sug-
gest to his hon. friend the withdrawal of these words.
Lord J. RUSSELL said in that case ho should consent
to the motion. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to.
The other orders were then disposed of, and the house
adjourned at a quarter to 1 o'clock.
PAIRS ON LORD NAAB'N MOTION.—Mr. Booker for with
Mr. Hutchins against; Colonel Cluitterton for with Mr.
Bagshawc against; Mr. Moody for with Mr. Pendarves
against; Mr. Fuller for with Mr. Pelham Villiers against ;
Mr. Scott for with Mr. Divett against.

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 16, 1851.

glie •flweOgi.

TO CORRESPONDENTS,

a Mama idldea iipres,- the wow samba's
" ter pod. Onotta," Is nailed eve(' Taaaday add might. la tido
adoduldastalstarlad ice " Lama," Loaded Erasing paper,
art bo it tho Una% 10, Bouredwateopt, try Two °Va.* ow tie
day of pandadles.

HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE
Tan DAr—llaratai, AC Ma %Marron. A. I sm.
Tiwimasow—Moralag, 4b. Sint .Afterres, 41i. the.

LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 16.

THE speech delivered by the Archbishop of
DUBLIN on Lord REDESDALE'S motion was, like
everything falling from the lips of that sagacious
and instructive prelate, remarkable for what it con-
ceded, suggestive in what it proposed, and consola-
tory, in these days of sacerdotal arrogance, for the
benignity of its tone and the moderation of its spirit.
Nevertheless, though correct and sound in its prin-
ciples, we most respectfully hold his grace to err in
his practical conclusions, and shall endeavour very
briefly to point out how.
Dr. WHATELY, it is to be inferred from that
speech (and of it only we shall treat), admits the
church to be a corporation proceeding from and sub-
ordinate to the state ; he grants that Convocation has
become a nullity, such as cannot now be usefully re-
vived; but he contends, as we understand him, that
every subordinate corporation ought to have an effi•
dent centre of administration of its own ; and as the
municipality of London has its Courts of Aldermen
and Common Council, he would give to the church
some corresponding system,. composed, however, of
the laity as well as the clergy.
This, it will be at once observed, is an argument
and a proposition of a very different sort from that
of the Bishop of OXFORD, who, regarding the church
as an institution independent of the state in its
origin, claims for it a legislature of its own, an in-
dependent court of priests which would contest, and,
if successful, control and ultimately supersede the
state. Between these two prelates, the difference
seems to be this'; that, while Dr. WIIATELY would
develop the church according to its true subordinate
theory, Dr. WILBERFoncit would practically create a
new church in England, enjoying, as of divine right,
all the temporalities of the subordinate church. A
great chasm here ! One that may engulf the church,
if prelacy do not keep away from its dangerous
brinks : it yawns for the establishment.
In Dr. Itillanit.v's scheme there is much show of
reason and some substantial truth. Naturally and rea-
sonably, all corporations, ecclesiastical as well as lay,
ought to have governing centres ; and the Church of
England, though such a body, has no such organ.
That must be conceded. It has no centre like the
town council of a corporate town; nor even any
administrative service similar to the Horse Guards
or the Admiralty. There is no body charged with its
general administration. Its bishops are merelyexecu-
tive functionaries ; and as a general administrator
the Archbishop of CANTERBURY is a peer of parlia-
ment—nothing more. Parliament is supreme over
the church as it is over all other corporations. But
parliament is the legislature ; not an administrative
council. Yet it exercises both functions towards the
church ; and some evil is undeniably the result. The
effort is as great to alter a line in the rubric, as it is
to (five a totally new constitution to the church,
which is absurd.

Well, Dr. WILATELY pleads for some administra-
tive organ. He most wisely and constitutionally re-
jects the notion that convocation has any right
to be that organ. tic asks for the creation of
a now body. And herein, no doubt, he finds
considerable support. There is, be it at once admitted,
an awkwardness in compelling the church, iu order
to carry out the details of its daily working, to have
recourse to a body which is composed of many mem-
bers nut belonging to the church. It is not only
awkward ; let us go further, and admit that in sonic
respects, and to some extent, it is also unfair. This
may bo yielded in argument to a prelate who does
not assail, as others of his order do, the sovereignty
of the nation, and who only asks for a subordinate
council or organ.
Right, then, it may be theoretically ; Dr. WIIATE-
LY is nevertheless wrong practically ; because
there is no chance whatever, in the present temper
of men's minds, or in any temper that is likely to
prevail for generations, of obtaining a satisfactory
institution such as he wants—such as might be
awful. For wo should not get the capital point—
the all in all—a truly subordinate body. And not
securing that, any other body would aim at becoming
an independent court : a body to supersede parlia-
ment, not only as an administrative organ but as the
legislature of the church. And that would be ruin.
For it would be what Dr. WILBERFOItCE wants—a
new church of England altogether.
But Dr. WIIATELY may perhaps reply—Look at
the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
We will. Indisputably, that Assembly does much
useful business. It smooths and facilitates, in seve-
ral important respects, the daily action of the church
of Scotland. It would, however, be otherwise in
England, and for this reason, that an English as-
sembly would soon be tested in a way that the
Scotch has never yet been. For the kirk is bound
down by the most rigid formulae of doctrine,
settled at the Reformation ; and to these for-
multe in all their nice details, both clergy and laity—
aye, and nine-tenths of the dissenters of Scotland
also—firmly, eagerly, and enthusiastically adhere.
Whereas the church of England embraces men and
parties of the most opposite theological views. It is
a broad church; and a broad church, governed by a
free deliberative assembly, is an impossibility. His-
tory exhibits no such body ; it could not exist.
Parliament is broad; because men do not make
it a matter of personal conscience to secede from a
body which holds protection or free-trade, monarchy
or republicanism, trial by jury or by judge. But it
is otherwise with religious opinions. In that region
it is impossible to sustain the maxim "Live and let
live." Sacerdotalists and the upholders of the doc-
trine that CHRIST has lett no one fixed constitu-
tion for the church could never co-exist long in the
same deliberative body. The breadth of the church
of England must perish, and that is the answer to
Archbishop WIUTELY.
For let his grace, in his turn, look at Scotland. The
views of doctnne were the same. The question of
patronage was subordinate, though important. The
assembly ruled one way, the state another, and a
great disruption was the consequence. The majority
seceded.

Now mark. As soon as an English assembly had I
made a declaration of doctrine, there would be no'',
alternative ; either parliament must enact the new
doctrine, or the assembly. would declare its right
of judging such matters violated ; and a tree church
of England would issue forth. There would bo no
esca
Tri; might suit Bishop WILBERFORCE and his
allies; such a conclusion would be accepted by
them. For avowedly. they would strip parliament
of the right of declaring the doctrine of the church
of England; they deny the actual historical verity
that it was parliament which did declare the present
creed of the church ; and they ride down a positive
fact by a false and arrogant theory. What they
now do in comparative safety, a deliberative assem-
bly would, however, enact with the greatest danger.
Dr. WUATELY, we know, would, on the contrary,
repel any such conclusion; he speaks of a subordi-
nate body only ; but his scheme would end in a revo-
lutionary one. Hence it is to be deeply regretted that
any such views have the high sanction of his high
name and vigorous mind.

THE GREAT EXHIBITION.—Yesterday the unpre-
cedentedly large number of 74,122 persons visited the Crys-
tal Palace, and 3,5091.85. was taken in shillings at the doors.
Notwithstanding this enormous crowd, consequent probably
upon the added attractions of the cattle-show at %Windsor,
Ices inconvenience from overcrowding was experienced than
might have been anticipated. The Queen and Prince
Albert again visited the building yesterday morning.
MALTA, ItTLY 9.—As to the real whereabouts of
the fleet no certain news had reached. It is thought to be
at Tunis. Terrible and Scourge are cruising among the
lonian Islands. Racer is to go to the Adriatic, and early
in Augu,t rendezvous at Zente, when Scourge will return
to Malta. Growler has left Constantinople for Alexandria,
with despatches from Sir S. Canning to H.B.M. Consul-
General, supposed to have reference to the intended rail
between Cairo and Suez. Frolic (brig) was at Rhodes on
tho 220 d ult., and was to leave on the following day, on a
cruise after the celebrated pirate Negri, Capt. Vansittart
having two piratical prisoners who know Negri under his
charge. Negn bad recently captured some vessels, but had
not murdered the Crew,. lie had three vessels—one a very
fast one, which he would retain ; and two others slower,
which he would get rid of.