The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-12 00:00:00

donor? (Cheers) Then they complained that the secre-
tary was paid 200 f. Really that was mot tco
much even for getting together such a magnificent
meeting, tilt when thee considered that all the emporia
were made, and all the money paid to the reepients through
that otfiesr, he felt sure they would agree that the secretary •
was most inadequately remunerated. The rev. doctor then •
proceeded to answer an article in the Times against charity
dinners, and triumphantly asked, if the men who attended
such demonstrations were all bores, bow was it that so
many ladies honoured them with their presence-250 in the
gallery at one end of the room, and 250 on the platform at
the other ? (Laughter.) Besides the dinner last year only
oost 311., besides the guineas of the diners. The rev. doctor
was proceeding, but the company testified their impatience
so loudly, that he resumed his seat after reading the list of
subscriptions. It was headed by her Majesty'a donation of
100 guineas, and amounted to about 9601.
The health of "The Chairman," proposed by Mr M.Milnes,
" Professor Creasy and the Historians," by Lord Stanley,
"Professor Aytoun and the Poets," by Mr. D. Seymour,
M.P., "Mr. Justice llaliburton and the Essayists," by
Lord J. Manners, " Dr. Dauheny and the Writers on
Science," by Dr. It. G. Latham, " The literature sad
1 Science of other countries, in connexion with the name of
Professor Felton," by Dr. J. It. Kenyon, and some ewer
toasts, concluded the programme.

ELECTION EXPOSURES.
-THE COMMITTEE ON DOCKYARD Plto-

MOTIONS AND APPOINTMENTS.

EXAMINATION OF MR. DISRAELI.

Yesterday, Mr. Disraeli was ex mined.
The Chairman addressing him, said—lt has been stated
before this committee by Sir Baldwin Walker, that in a
conversation he had with Mr. Stafford, at the Admiralty.
Mr. Stafford stated to him, referring to the subject of ap-
pointments and promotion. in the navy, that 0 it was of no
use blinking the question, he was so much pressed by Lord
Derby and the Cuancellor of the Exchequer that be could
not help himself." Now, I wish to ask you whether yea
did express to Mr. Stafford any opinion regarding his taking
the management of the promotions and appointments in the
dockyard for political purposes.
Mr. Disraeli—l never had any conversation with Mr.
Stafford, or with any person who held office under the late
government, with respect to any such circumstance,.
The C..airman—Then the committee are to understand
that you did not give any opinion either one way or the
other, with reference to the patronage in the d..eliyards ?
Mr. Disraeli—Mr. Stafford never consulted me on such
subject., nor did any one under the late administration.
They were subjects that did not fall under my department,
and it never entered into my head that any one would have
spoken to me upon such a subject.

The Chairmi;n-1 do not tliink there is any other ques-
tion the committee have to put.
Mr. Disraeli was about to retire, when
Mr. Beckett said Mr. Disraeli, in the evidence given by
his Grace the Duke of Northumberland, his grace stated
that Mr. Stafford told him, "he (Mr. Stafford) was re-
sponsible fur all the patronage of the Admiralty, that he
felt a difficulty in doing his duty, that when called upon by
the government or by tits Rouse of Commons to explain
anything for which he was responsible, he had not the
means of answering, the whole of the appointments and
patronage being in the Surveyor's-Mlle°. lie also tcld me
the patronage of the Admiralty was used against tho
government, and that he felt he had net the power of doing
his duty, and that he could not retain his office under the

circumstances." Now, do you recollect Mr. i.atgrdmol:
in any complaint of that kind to you, us a member of thu
late administration, under thee„ circumstances?

Mr. Disraeli—lf Ow Committee wish, 1 would state to
them what, from my own knowledge of the facts, and my
own observation of what took place, and the circumstances
that have been generally before the committee, I bzlieve to
be really the came of these misunderstandings. 1 do not
come here to give evidence on that particular subject, but if
the committee wish I will explain to them what the cir-
cumstance% were. When the government was (mein& the
Duke rf Northumberland from a high sense of public duty

and from a great love of the profesaionlf which he Was a mem-
ber, was anxious that the Board of Admiralty suotilu be
formed as free as possible from what are called political in-
fluences. No obstacle whatever was presented us the wishes
of his grace, and the Board of Admiralty accordingly was
formed by his grace of very distinguished naval officer., with
the sole object of establishing as efficient administration of
that great branch of the public service. The consequence
was, I have no hesitation in saying, that there was that
want of understanding between the Board of Admiralty and
the House of Commons which had hitherto prevailed,
which, I have no doubt, prevails with the present Board of
Admiralty, said which, anterior to the administration of
Lord Derby, has always prevailed. For instsnce, the present
Board of Admiralty is represented in the House of Com-
mons not in, rely by the secretary, but ty a most distin-
gaisbed naval officer, who is the first naval lord;
and the board is also represented by a lay lord ; there-
, fore between the present Board of Admitalty and the
present Douse of Commons, there would be nrourally •
perfect and consentaneons understanding. Now, when
the Board of Admiralty was formed undrr the adminis-
tration of Lord Derby it was formed of the most distin-
guished members in the service; but there was only one
member of the llouse of Commons who was • Lord of the
Admiralty, and that one member, though a most honourable
and able gentleman, was hi:uself a naval officer, and there-
fore he took • place at the board ; he took his place in the
presence of his superior officers ; superior in point of pro-
fessional 11 putation and rank, and therefore he was neces-
sarily influenced by them. Upon Mr. Stafford, therefore,
under these circumstances, devolved entirely the repre-
sentation of the feeling of the House of C 011111101111; tie was
the only civilian. He entered office not only inexpe-
rienced, but he entered office under circumstances, and
in a position of extreme difficulty. I beiieve that this
will explain the circumstances of the case. I may, per-
hap, add that the consequence of all this was, that from
the very first there was cot that sympathy between the
late Board of Admiralty and the llouse of Commons
which is necessary in the administration of our parlia-
mentary government. I have no hesitation in sayirg that
from my position then as leader of the House of Common',
in giving it (the committee) as my opinion, that Mr. Stafford
was placed in the position of mainly considering and repre-
senting the House of Commons without any one allied
with him to support him, and the Board of Admiralty,
formed of the most able and efficient men, looked at what
they called the service, and not with respect to these ques-
tions of patronage, promotions, and appointments, but it
was at first at least with regard to matters of another kind.
If I, for instance, felt it to be my duty, as it sometimes be-
came my duty, to speak to the Secretary of the Admiralty
as the present leader of the House of Commons would
speak probably to Admiral Berkeley, or to any other indi-
vidual of the house placed in • similar capacity, on matters
of public expenditure—if the Secretary of the Admiralty
did his duty—and if he obeyed my instructions, and
obeyed those representations which the Heuse of Commons,
on all questions of public expenditure, requires should be
attended to, and which the minister who leads the House
of Commons must truly and fairly represent—no doubt
these appeals were listened to with jealousy and suspicion,
or there was not that harmony which ought to exist be-
tween every branch of the Admiralty and the House of
Commons, and which can only exist when a considerable
number of the members of that department of the ; üblie
service are members of the Douse of Commons as well as
members of the board.

The Chairman —Then I understand you to say that
there wu a want of understanding between the Admiralty
and the House of Commons ?

to say that the Board of Ad-
miralty look merely to the efficiency of the service. They
thought their only duty was to consider the efficiency of the
service, but they did not understand sufficiently, I think,
the spirit of our parliamentary 'government, and that in
' conducting affairs they must look to the temper, that they
must consider the temper of the House of Commons; that
temper is represented in the present instance, and was
represented before by the several members of the House of
Commons who are also members of the Hoard. Take, for
example, the ease of the Secretary of the Admiralty re-
presenting to me, as it wee his duty, that he thought
the expenditure was exceeding the estimates for
the year—it was my duty, as the guardian of the public
purse, of course to attend immediately to it, and I
ordeied, I think, that a weekly account should be sent to
the Treasury of the expenditure. I believe candidly it
could be proved that the expenditure was very well regu-
lated, but of course it was my duty to do it. That I under-
stood at the time, and these were things that happened
early in our administration. This, however, was looked at
as rather an unwarrantable interference with the adminis-
tration of the Admiralty, but your lordship must knew,
and every member of the committee must know, that these
are things that are necessary to be done, and to be clearly
and completely understood. I only mention them to the
committee as an illustration of what I have sta:cd.

The Ckairman—W hat you wish to convey to us is, that
you, as Chasmllor of the Exchequer, and as responsible for
the expendtture of the country, wished to have u control
and superinteadance over the weekly expenditure of the
Admiralty, for fear it should in any way exceed the esti-
mates.

Mr. Disraeli—Yes ; I merely mentioned it in !that way.
I do not want to lay any great stress upon it, but merely to
, mention it by way of illustration.
The Chairman—Then an application from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, under ordinary circumstances, would not
be viewed with any jealousy, if a majority of the members
' of the Board of Admiralty were at the same time members
of the House of Commons ?
Mr. Disraeli—Perkips it would not even be necessary, so
far as the preparation of the estimates is concerned. It was
represented to me that Admiral Parker thought that coo-
" monesnidLered to be an expres-
sionirte t
was rene h,
of opinion from a body who ought not to express opi-
nions on such subjects, :•.nd that it was an interference of
the House of Commons with the administration of the
Admiralty.
Mr. Disraeli—lt was looked upon as an interference of
the Douse of Commons with the Admiralty. Mr. Stafford
was placed under circumstances of great difficulty, and, of
course, he communicated it to me. My advice to Mr. Staf-
ford was, of coolie, to conciliate as much as possible, cad to
do his duty ; not to bring forward any proposition before
the board for which they might net be prepared ; to speak
to tho members of it privately first; and, in fact, lo :asks
them clearly understand what the nature of cur pitha-
mentary goverment was, which probably no person con
properly understand but thole who form a part ol it.
Sir Ferguson Davie—lu s'ating those di:lli:allies to you
. then, Mr. Stafford stated that they were with regard to Eros