The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-04 00:00:00

AUSTRALIAN COLONIES BILL.

Kr. ADDERLEY asked the Under Secretary for the
Otlonies whether the extecsive al•erations which had been
announced for the Austral:in Cilonii s (No. 2) Bill would re
printed, and plac, d in the hands of members before the
second reading of thet bill cn the 16th.
Mr. HAWES wed the hon. gentleman appeared to be
under a wrong impression as to the alterations which had
been made in the bill. The second bill we., in fact, a ver-
batim copy of the first, the only difference being that some
of the clauses et the first bill were omitted. The effect was
to extend the functions of the colonial government with re-
gard to the regniation of the price of lend.
Mr. STAFFORD swished to know whether the clauses
would be pointed for the second reading.
Mr. HAWES replied that there were no new clauses ; the
only change was that of omission.
AMERICAN MAIL.

Mr. WYLD asked f.r explanation with regard to the stop-
page of letters and files of newspapers on the arrival of the
tut American mail at Liverpool, which were intended for
the corresponden+e of the different London journal+ ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that,
as no notice had been given of the question, be could not
make any reply.
THE METROPOLITAN POLICE.
Lord D. STUART rise to move for a select committee to
inquire into the ma f making the assessment in the
several counties for the maintenance of the metropolitan
police, and into the expenditure thereof; es well as into the
general admini.tratioa of the forte, and especially into the
recent 1011114 i increased charge of upwards of 35,0001 on the
county of Middlesex. He denounced the police as so many
petty tyrants (laughter), and affirmed that the m• re polls
could be moresff.ctuallyguarded by infiuitely fe er men
and at far less cost.
Sir G. GREY raid it would be to waste the time of the
house to defend the metropolitan police from the charge of
being no many lorry tyrants. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
As to the inquiry whien his noble friend asked for, it had
been already fully gone into. There were, no doubt, ine•
qualities in the metropolitan ratings, but these, he thought
he might say, 'soul I bo very shortly remedied.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that the whole system of police
rating was grewly unjust. Hi, own constituent+ not only
paid a very heavy rate for their own protection, but they had
to coutribute towards the 100,0001. and upwards which were
paid out of the consolidated fund towards the police charge
d Marylebone.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that as to the metropolitan
pollee, it was a most efficient and admirably managed force.
The complaint was not against the police, but against the
listquality of the assessment by which they were paid.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was of opinion that the police force was
am so constituted as to fit it for the duties it had to ptorfJetn,
wither wee it adapted to fulfil the functions which bad
since its original formation devnlv+ d upon it. A much
larger force ought to be stationed outside the metropolis, so
ws to raid the home county approaches, and of that force
a comh.emble portion ought to be mounted, in order to pre-
vent the numerous robberi a that had of late Teen en mueb
increased. If the noble lord went to a division he should
think i' his duty to support his motion.
Mr. HUME said he should not be diverted from his ori-
ginal intention by any observations made by the noble lord.
He had supported the Institution of the present police force
twenty years ago, in spite of the obl^quy which was cast
upon it ; he thought it a very efficient solotitute for the
" Old Charlie.," but he had always opposed its being paid
eat of the cons olidated fund. There ought to be an inquiry
whether the manner of paying the forge and the amount of
its cost were open to any amendment or reduction, but at the
same time he thought the noble lord ought to be satisfied
with obtaining the returns which were requisite, and with
giving notice of a motion for the next session for select

committee. Ili did not concur in the charges against th,
police, but he thought the government ought to grant a
committee of nquity. if his noble friend omitted he would
vutu with him, but et the same time he hoped the pier,.
mint would grant en Inquiry at some future ',trim which
would obviate the necessity for ',resting the motion to a
divi loot.

Sir D. L. EVANS sa.d that the present system of sums.
log for the police sates vas very unfair ; fur even if 2d. or
3d. in the pound would suffice the act required 64. to be rol.
lected. Au ioquirr was absolutely requisite, sod be should
certainly support any proposal 0) that effect. At the lam
time he nope.ithe noble lord, seeing what the feeling of the
house on the subject was, would withdraw his motion and
renew it next session.

Sir G. GREY denied that it was requisite to collect 6d. if
a lower rate would do.
Sir J. W. HOGG accu ed the right hon. baronet °punt,
of a bresca of fai- h in having withdrawn the bill for rs.
deicing the rate from 6s. to 6d.
Lord D. STUARf replied. He contended that the ex.
planation given by the right hon. gentleman with regard to
the police b..ing sent to different pars of the couury 111$ net
estistatx.ry, bec.tuse though their expenses were paid when
they wen. on country expeditions, still the fact of their being
so sent about rendered toe Employment of a larger foreg
cessary than would otherwise he required. (Hear) tie had
not been supported in tree charges which he had made agaist
the police. Me had nn meant to charge them as a body with
gross misconduct, but what he said was, that they were set
so port. et and efficient a force u they might be. At any
rate, whether auppor7ed in that paticuLa or not, he still
contended that the inhabitants of the metropolis were an.
justly taxed. He hail the greatest deference fur his hon.
',knit the member for Montrose; but at no tope had bees
held out to him that the committee would be eq-p tinted at
another time it he now withdrew his motion, he felt Out he
should nut be doing his duty if he did nut press it to a
divi -ion.

Lord R. GROSVENOR regrett.d that hi. noble friend
had not followed the judicious advice of his boo. friend the
number for Montrose. However, if his noble frirLd divided
he should divide with h en, although nut on the grounds
which his noble friend had him., If advanced.
Toe hors then divided, when the numbers were,
For the motion
Against it 137-109
THE CHARTER.
Petitions having been prsiehted in favour of this measure
by Mr. F. O'CONNOIt, Mr. RlCAltbu, My, bin Na 2, Mr. W.
J. Yon, and other hon. gentlemen.
Mr. O'CONNOR rose to bring forward the following
:
That this house, recognising the great principle that labour is the
solace of all wealth, that the people are the only legitimate rource of
power, that the labourer should be the first p irtak.r of the fruits of
bo own industry, thut tax Won without representation is tyt fumy,
and should he regsted, and b. liecing that the remoras of the country
would be beet developed by laws made by repimentatives climes by
the LOY wring claws in conjunction with thaw who live by other in.
dustrial pursuits; that (in recognition of the above great truths) this
bowie adopts the Wu:fp" embodied to the dieumeni entitled, 'ohs
Pi epte's Charter, nameiy, annual elections, universal suffuse, cote by
ballot, equal clectoral districts, no property qualification, cad pay.
moot of nhmhers.

He was perfectly aware of the disadvantage seder which he
lab cured when submitting this great question to the ifOute
of Commons ; but at the came time he believe] that it was
the duty of that house to discuss every question which agi-
tated the pubic mind out of doors. if tnere was anethieg
erroneous in the principles which he enunciao d, it was the
duty of the government to oppose them by sound argument.
—to show that they were the mere Utopian theme II of an
excited fancy, and not to atempt to crush them by ridicule
or tome. M my applicatians bad been made to him to with-
draw his motion fee the present, to enable the hon. member
tor Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) to pre ca, d with the
debe'e on the sate of the nation. He ceuld nut confect to
such &course, however : in we particularly after the statement
of the hon. member himrell, that a great alteration in the
I,gi lotion of this country was required, in order to
do justice to all chums of the pet pie in this ctuatry.
Not one of those so ial changes or benefits that were to be
pr du ed by reform had been conceded to the working cisme,
hut this house was mone divided than ever it was before
into closes reptionset to the rights and interests of the
workless classes. Every honourable membe r must be gem
that the house was now divided into Ousel. The
interests of efficers in the army and navy, mercsants,
manufacturers, shopkeepers, and last, not least, lawyers,
were, ice tie it o on tweet*, repugnant to the into eels of the
working classes ; wh hey all lived on the proceeds of
their Libour. He should not deltic the house long
with Lis proposition ; it was likely that he miebt he without
a house bc'ore I.e concluded; but be believed ti e noble lord
and the government would not lend themsele s to such emcee
of getting rid of this preposition. His preelection was founded
on the original charter, as drawn up by Daniel O'Connell,
signed by tour or five members of the house, &molted teem by
the hon. member for Rochdale, who d not sketch from the
avowal of there principli s ; by Mr. Roebuck, Mr. Heathy,
and others. It spoke Lathe r in disparaging terms of annual,
and pretend ttienedul parliaments; but it del not
repudiate teem. If he were asked which of the six
points of the charter he preferred, he shooed s.; annual par-
liaments, t r then hon. members could settle annual accounts
with the it constituents. On a former ecerden the n ible
lore had sated that since the passing of the Re'orns 811
there heed been el, ctions every two years and a li-lf. It was
so, but in t one two 'errs; of legislation the re presenta-
tive, of the prop In were not aware that the eeesion would
break down, and it was enly towards the close of the session
that those who had been most subservient, invarieley este red
for support by voting fey some popular measure. NV tat he
contended for was that all men who were returned to the
house should net be delegates but the representatives of the
mind of the constituency. There was one very important
tact connected with this question of annual parliaments,
and it was strongly developed last year as re-
garded Ireland, and commercial distress. He believed
it was an •imitte d tact that many who had votes in 1847 had
lost throne vote s in consequence of pauperism. So that you
had representatives representing bankrupt elector, dead
electors, and pauper elector.. Could that be the case if they
had sessional parliaments? There was one great object
which would be attained by the adoption of annual puha-
'steno., and it was this: you legislated for the mime of the
day. In this age cf rat I prozreas, when the mind travelled
Sy electric telegraph, he rked whether those m teens who
we re returned at the commencement of a serennial paella-
meet to make laws in consonance with the opini ens of the
doy, should not be guided by the opine nee of their eneetitu-
ents before the seven years had passed away. Ile was
told that annual parliaments would lead to annual contusion.
Nn man discharged a good servant, no one could tee com-
pelled to keep a bad one in his service, and a
enstitutney ought to be represented by one who
was ahle to discharge his duties faithfully. The
noble Fret Lord of the Treasury had Vaunted the bon. memoir
for Montiose with the fart that he bad no patterns to suppert
Lim, but he (Mr. O'Connor) was happy to in orm that hon.
member that his cause was making great way outside that
house. (Hear, heat.) He tendered to the hen. manber his
sincere thanks fee the manner in which lee hod taken up the
cause of the people. (Cheers.) But the noble lord laughed
to acorn the petitions of the people. But he warned the
noble lord *gains' attaching too much importance to the lack
of petitions. That absence was a consequence of the cleence
of ire et, of hope, or of confidence in that house; and not of
any apathy on the part of the people as to their just claims.
' With respect to the Mlle?, although he had voted for it, he
coule hardly sty he approved of it, while the constituencies
were se restricted as at present. The clubs had been quoted
in its favour, but it should be recollected that in t -e clubs
member had a vote. If there were only 100 votes out
of 603 members, the working of the ballet might not be so
satirlactory as at present.
An How. MEMBER here moved that the house be counted.
The gallery was accordingly cleared, but exactly 40 mem-
bers Wei; pr ant, the gallery was re-opened, and we found
Mr. F. O'CONNOR complaining of the discourtesy by
whic h the debate was attempted to be cushioned—a discour-
tesy of which he himself had never been guilty. The hon.
member resumed his argument. With respect to electoral
districts, be would not entangle the question by putting for-
ward any ep elfin plan. Ile would content himself with
eluding to a digest i.e had prepared et the various electoral
b dies England, by which it appeared that for 13 of the
first class towns, frent London to Birmingham, with a popu-
lation of 2,748,890, there were only 28 mem: e rs, whets 18
towns, with a population of 116,891, returned 2.i members
(Hear, bear ) Aeain he found that 34 pieces, with a popu-
lation under half a million, returned 59 membe re. With
these facts before it, the house could hardly deny that some
change in the arrangement of electoral directs was called
for. (Hear, hear ) The right hon. Secretory for the Home
Department had asked him how he proposed to alter the
pees, nt ay. tem. His answer was that be was determined to
being forward no scheme which might create antagonism in
the liberal party. (Hear.) He would mere ly rewind the house
that the bleep:silty of the electoral directs bad caused
the Reform Bill. He came next to the qusstion of the
property qualification. He did not see why that should he
so vigorously resisted, seeing that there were already
.53
members in that house from whom no property quslificaton
was required. The Scotch borough members did not
qualify, nor the members for the universities, the latter
being the most prejudiced and bigoted men in the house. Why
then persist in requiring it from English and Irish members ?
The noble lord the Prime Minister could sit there as the
representative of the great and wealthy metmpnlis of Lan-
don, with a qualification of 3001. a year, but the member for
a st'rving county in Ireland must possess a nuslificaeion of
6001. a year. Was there any justice in that ? fie now
came to the last of his propositions—the payment of
m' mbers. That the labourer wu worthy of his hire
was applicable in this, as in all other matters.
.ched
if he needed an example to justify this propostuon,
he need only point to the Treasury benches, the noble
and right hon. members who occupied which received as
much in salaries from the state as would be suffleieet to
that it was derogatory for members to receive payment for
quasi
Ythihsefareetpberesefonretatthiveems,Qwfa3,2ilt
n citizen
(,t shou mockeryzhst.o tell
them
their services? Talk not to him of the ignorance of
the working ciasses. If they were ignorant, who was
to b!ame ? (Hear, hear.) He had more acqueett-
once with the working c!a:ses than any man who had ever
gone before. or who would ever come after him. (A
lauzh.) Yes, he had met them in all placee, and
under every variety of ercumstance, and be had never
heard a working man make use of an indecent
or obscene word. Let hon. gentlemen who did not mix with
them as he did go amengst the working men at thew meet-
ings, and they would he surprised at the gond sense, thew !lie
quence, and the sincerity they would the re meet
(Hear, hear.) Why, then, should persons who an conducted
thetas-dyes not have a shore in the representation ? There
was no danger that they would choose improper peewee
It was impossible to get at the truth from the news;
paper accounts, It was the tame with restore! r
the foreign news. In the foreign news of the Dowse

the ▪
events on the connate, which showed the actual
holing of the le, the progress of popular opinion every-
where s free inoitations, were either perverted or
suppressed. Whole nations, who were struggling for free-
dom, were described by the Tuner, first as merely Matinee-
tiesary, thou as a body of insureente, and &tot wattle, when
they became sweet mough to make their power felt, they
were elevated into " the democratic party." Is one more-
*paper, he was to say, it News so. If theyread
the cemsposdeocebOrfhe Daily they would there
sus the mind of th• people foreshadowed. (Hear, hear.)
Then they would see what the people really thought, and
what they were really doing. (Hear, bear.) But the ob-
ject of the Tame seemed to he to keep them in ignorance of
the truth until it eh eetd buret up in thane like a
dap ef thaniter. He proposed this otion es an in
rodent motion ; he had shown that th ononetruction et the
Home of Commute was not in harmony wi b the ()liaises of
ebe people, he had shown how they might develop the
esseerere of the country, give employment to labour, and
any a p menu' and dangerous antagonism, and
ia elPre•Sind his dete,niiistioa to agitate a question which ,
after all, was but the recapitulation of the principles of the
Whig poly paaajos• to the Reform Bill, without going so
Mr es to say that be would die on the floor of the house —(a
kregb)—be promised that, whether in the house or out of it,
spits of persecution or renovation, he would never, until
that question was earned, nun to advocate the people's
charter an Ino surrender. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. CRAW FORD seemaded the motion.
The questioa was put, but some moments elapsed before
say owe nee to spoilt toil Oa the divisioo being called for,
Col. THOMPSON said that, as one if thou who was con
serated is the modem origin of the charter, he should, he
thought, incur just blame it he allowed the debate to go ever
without offering a few worth to esoress his own resumes SR
supporting the motion. In doing so he must admit that he ttok
a wile gad divenive view of the siitiject. He did not
Diskedhi bound either to this pert of it or that, bat
to ma in what direction the current of the avltiCM
loaded, sad believing it to be generally good he voted for it
Uke weed for annu-1 parliaments, it might be his (minim
that that was a just and reasonable thing, and he had so
lesitstios ia suing that he preferred annual parliaments if
they were practicable, but if it should be baud that they
were soe he did net "enisidor that he was in any way bound
ea that sisbjeete. (Hear) Thom wee sae of the tea points
which be wryly's], looked apse as sa ezaresosnee —no pint
is the adoption of that could betokened to the =seism authors
of the charter to which he had the honour to belong. He re-
lented the paegaect of nienthinr. (Hear.) That win so child
of than, bet had bees invented and direlverld silts sad
he amid sotiavolve himself by any meg eto support it.
Mr. HUME promised to poppet the 'adios. He denied
that any 'diem attached to the charter or to those wh ad-
vacated popular rights in a candid and ecestitutional spirit.
He desired to sec the principle., of refer= tally and fairly es.
• aed believe I that reform, to be •me ant, must be
made wieformable to the feelings of the reuerry. He had
ever &denoted the right of every man to be repo rated in
the legislator*, sad he could distinctly reeollect that 2.5 years
age there was an emotion toast at popular wilt
sad disaers—easeely, the liberty et the people. lie hao:liett
time was coming when the midaile-skini electors, 111 sing that all
theme meaures were sow rejected which had for their object
a reduction of the national espesditure and the promoti in
of 'not govenemeut, would demand a chains in the eoesli
tativu of the house. He was happy to say that, Sluing the
whole course of his acquaintance with the working elswes,
he had beard them advocate anything approaching to
violence. The noble lord at tne heed of the government
was looked upon as a gnat reformer; now that he had the
power let him carry out those prineiples of which, for so
seam years, he had pr Mimed linnet! to be so warm a sup-
porter. Let not others be allowed to do what he ght new
accomplish with 10 much facility and grace. Let hies, as a
friend to popular and religiose freedom, do indict to the
people by at eau luiegiag them wilds the pile of the con-
'Putties. (Hoer )
Ile. M. J. O'CONNELL objected on 1111111,11 principles
to the motion. He Wm is favour of the abolition of
the property qualificadoe, and he was also in favour
of vote by ballot, sad he left the question of
annuli parliaments to be argued by other hon. gen-
tlemen. He thought that if universal suffrage were
hastily adopted, it would be most injurious and dangerous.
He restarded the equalimti in of electoral districs as the
worst ot all the propositions, because any rash spirit of ism-
ration in that respect would ba productive of evil cense-
gammen His derided opinion war, that the safest, the most
necessary, and the mew truly cosservstive measure which
any 401..1201 at adopt, was a large extension of the
franchise (Hear, hear.)
Ile O THOMPSON mild not conceal from himself that
no immediate practical result could be expected to result
from the present la 'lion, but it was of no ieconsiderable im-
portance that on every fitting occasion there should be, for
the sake of hon. members and their countrymen out of dome,
calm and judicious discession of that momentous national
questioa of a change in our representative system.
(Hoar, bear.) Every declaration from the noble lord at the
head of the government was only a declaration more em-
pbatic than the last that from him nettling war to be
expeseed.
Lird J. RUSSELL.—No.
Mr. TtiOMPSON —The noble lord had affirmed this self-
imposed condition, a condition imposed in New , 1837, that
he would s ever disturb the R--fors Bill of 1832 ; and that,
although he did not deny to the house and to the country the
right of reconstituting the hem-, aed making such changes
in the representative syittm as circumstances might seem to
demand, yet, from himself individually, not only was there
not to be ected the origination of any further measure of
infirm, but not even the sanction of it as a member of that
house still km any co-operation in carryiog such • measure
late the nem of a law.
Lord J. RUSSELL—No.
Mr. THOMPSON said he was merely quoting the deck-
Mein of the noble lord, deli,. red on the 20th of November,
1837—a decleration repeated on the following night in more
emphatic terms, on the occ mains of a motion being submitted
by one of the hon. members for Finsbury. It was time,
thee, fir the hon. members of that house to consider whether,
instead of making appeals to the noble lord, which were very
like going to a" broken cistern," or like" gathering grapes
from thorn, or figs from thistles," they woul I divestthems-Ives
of the opinionsof her litsjegyegovernment, and, above all, of
the opinion of the head of the government, and take Lilo
their smiles eosin& ration the necessity of enlarging the
number of these whose privilege it was to send siemens to
that Louse. (Hear, bear.) He was the enemy of nomina-
tion an I intimidation ; 14.3 were those who now asked for re-
form. Nomination boroughs still existed. "No contest" was
the return in lastly of those places near which the nominee
resided, and held considerable property. Those which were
not strictly speaking nomination boroughs were in the mar-
ket. The candidate did sot censid.r the prevailing political
sentiments of the inhabitants, but went to • public-house not
far from that hon.*, and came into costae with an acknow-
ledged it feel's, in boroughs. The bargain was struck—he
stated how much nsesey ht could pay, and agreed to be re-
turned hu se mach, the fees of the negotiation included.
Gentlemen wereenestantly returned to that biome under such
circumstances. There was in every one of those tyirouges
a e irrupt few who held the balance of power. It was not
with them a question of tarn or liberal,. It was not be-
cause they wished to see any particular political opinions
supported in that house that they turned the scale. It was
with th.ne a question of mossy—of bribery. He, there-
fore, said, let there be an appeal to the peal C Mt-
mon same of the people at At present there
was ne such appeal—(eear, hear)—it depended alto-
gether spas parer—it depended on whether the candi-
date leasable to hay up some 30 or 40 corrupt ilidividuale •
sad if the mosey was not paid, no matter what his political
minims or how great his sincerity, he did not attain the
object of hie ambition. He did not rise to discuss the six
posts of Gm charter. He did not think this was the
Lae to go tate the details of any great measure of represen-
tative referee. But he asked of the house to recogoim the
right et the people to send their representatives to thallium.
The discussion of all other questions was but shedding addi-
tional light upon that question. He believed that the eon-
stitutien would he bent 'maintained in its isnot ity when the
people sere fairly represented 111 that house, and he should
therefore vote, without committing himself to the details, for
the resolutios btfore the house, hoping it would lead to some
Frankel voile
Mr. CAMPBELL opposed the motion, which he said was
sot based upon the ebiiets of the Helena Bill, but upon
such abwract principles as "the people were the nurse of
power," and •• labour was the mum" of wealth."
Mr. 8. CRAW FORD. as es* who had signed the dace-
moot an which the chaster was founded, wished to avow the
Met, sod his continued convietion that the principle
of the charter were the only ones on which the liberties of
the people meld be gemmed.
Sir G. STRICKLAND felt eempelled, from the course the
debate had te k-a, to explain the vote be should give. Tb' re
was not an older MOM!r in the house, nor one disposed to
intend the frostlike further. He had supported the motion
of the hoe. member for Montrose, who, however, while
speaking against the prew nt motion, declared he should vote
for it. He (Sir George) could not do this, the motion bang
cootnry to the opinions he held. He had always
advocated the ballot, thinking it would afford great
relief to minty seascientious soon—shopkeepers, for in-
stance, who were comp Zed to vote menet their conscience
lest Quit trade should be ruined. Unlike the hon. member
for Not ir ghons, he would take the ballot without wile's' sal
suffrage, thinking that too largo a jump to take at once. He
could not eonslstently vote for the motion, her approve of
the course taken by the hon. member foe Montrose,
alh
he was as much as ever an advocate fur the extension" It
Baffles.
Mr. W. J. FOX said the hon. baronet who had Just
Wiles s•ented to imagine that there was some extreardinare
contrariety between the motion now before the house and
that of the hon. member for Montrose. But then was a
bond of union b tween thews two motions much more
im-
portant then any minute difference that could possibly be
shown. They both aimed at one thing, at representation—
(hear, hear)—and it was for representation, real, full, and
fair, that he meant to itive his vote that evening as he
gave it on a former occasion when he went out into the lobby
with the hen. mamba for Montrose. It had been objected
to this motion that it was an abstract proposition, end also
that it tied the house down by its adoption to a minuteness
of detail which could not afterwards be altered. These two
objections, thouith urged by the same hon. member,
Komori so radically in opposition to each other.
as effeetuaVy to settle the questirn of the attention to which
either of them was entitled. This proposition was only
abstract in the sense of all imeertant propositi Every
great measure of reform must originate in what was celled
an abstract propesitMa. It had been alleged as an argument
against the adoption of that motion, on tie supposition teat
it was identical with extreme democracy, that this was a
peculiarly unfit country—that we had here tan ancient mo-
hereby, an ancient charcb, an ancient aristocracy, and a

large landed proprietary. Why, these were the very
meows which had neceniteted representation in the
mum:mut of these realms—(n"u, hear)—and which
showed the intense want of • popular principle
is order to mate looms balite@ to these mighty intl .encie,
identified as they were with clues of society Will. mieht oc-
cseilaelly have, or amm to have, interests aot ilutical with
those of t►e entire pops:ivies. (Hear, hear.) Not only
was it Otis that representation was the principle of the
British constitution, but it wee du metier of complaint that
we had not yet arrived at its enjoyment Having gone
over the tilt-repeated statistics as to the number of (coati-
tuents of various b 'roughs, he said, but if the house
looked at the 'lenient of proper', in addition to that of
•embers, It would find that 330 me milieu rept, seated peoperty
to the amount of 6,300,00!.. and 34h other members pro-
peril, to the amount of 78,0002 If such enamel s u these,
&nog as they were, were not opposed to the feelings and
opinions of the people, he was not pr pared Vi say that it
would be worth wbre t bring about ince rectification at
the price of those inconventencits laid', to • certain ex.
tent, must always be attendant on any change of a great
system that had been long in operation. Bat the feelings
sad opinions of the people were ocidedly opproet to them ;
end there was an imperative necessity for their removal.
(Hea►, hear) It was not at all in retentive to this or that
point in the charter, of which so mush had been said, that
he supported the motion of the hon. member fur Nottingham,
but on the simple principle that the people were entitled to
this extensive enlargement of the existing basis art the tier

total franchise. -
Lied J. RUSSELLhaving had mere than oce opportunity
of addreesing the hones on matters of a nature somewhat
similar to tee present one, both in the last sod during the
present session of parliament, he did not know that he should
have risen on the present occasion to trouble the house with
the ezpression of sentinieets with weich it must be now
familiar, had it not been for some assertions thee had been
made in the course of the debs • to-night, which, it be were
to Slew to pus uncontredicted might leave • very laise im-
pression on the minds of all who had heard them, with se
geed to the government to which he belonged—to the
wiej city of that house--end to his own political conduct as aI.
minister of the crown, or as a private member of parts-
meat, on the question of parliamentary storm. (Hear,
hear.) And first he must advert to a &mermen ahad
been mad*, that night, by the hon.n
member tort the
Tower Hamlets, whammed to think that he (Lard J. Rms
sell) had pledged himself end the government to welch be
belonged, to resist any attempt to terry any further measure
of parliamentary reform, or sty propsition for the eaten
sion of the elective suffrage, whether brought forward by any
member of her Majesty'. government for the time being, or
any other member of that house. T.e hon. gentleman, in
support of this assertion, had especially advertea to • speech
which he (Lord J. Russell) had made is the year 1837.
(Hear, bear.) Geneemen would, doubtless, recollect that
when the proposed mature for the reform of pareiament
was brought formerd by him, as the organ of the govern-
ment of theists Earl Grey in that house, its announcement
had excited a great deal of enthusiasm among a great body of
the people ; and, at the same time, had occasioned
very considerable alarm among other classes ; wise
were, incited, prepared to adopt measures having a
reform of parliament for their object, but who Con-
sidered the bill for that purpose this submitted to the
lature so extreme, so very esteems or democratic in its ten-
dencies, that they were prepared to witnold their support
from it, sincerely as they would have espoused tee preempts,
and to run all risks that might result ire en their pieta .g
themselves is opposition on that subject to the declared sun
unequivocally avowed wishes of a great majority of the pea
pie. On its success, the same peaks, still fearful of its re-
result., seeing on the one heed the peril, which they thought
mast attach to the princieles that Zed Grey had sine loped
with his authority and support, and on the other the perils
that might attend any further saistamesto the clear mani-
festations welch ha I been given of the popular will on such
• subject, end in a free country like this, addressed a ques-
tion to Earl Grey, as the lead of the government
in 'he other house, and to Lord Althorp as the
ministerial leader in this, " whether it was is-
tended by that government that the bill should
he the bales of a sere s of other measures totally destroying
the existing scheme of p erliamentary reprerention : or whe-
ther toe government intended it as their measure of paths
mentary reform, and upon which the y meant to stand ?"
(Hear, hear.) Earl Grey and Lord Althorp both replied to
this question by a solemn declaration that their bill was a
measure try which they did mean to stand. (Hear, hear.)
But no pledge was given that, in the event of the Reform
Bill then eeton parliament befog carried, no proposals fee
further 'iteration, that might be called tor in the representa-
tion of the people, provided they should be founded on the
basin established by that bill, would be este rtained by any
member of that government. Oa this declaration en male
by Reel Grey and Lord Althorp, who, in their several ca-
pacities were of course entitles to be regarded as speaking
the sentiments of the government they represented in both
Mass of the legieleture, many peewee of moderate opi-
Seas who had not been, up to that time, pasha
mentary reformers, declared their adherence to the
taaoll Earl Grey, and gave such euppert to it as eneebl
Grey's government to carry their bill, first throuth
this, and fleshy through the ether house of parliament. It
was some five years after this event that he (Lord J. Rumen)
was asked to give his consent to a totally new and different
seisms of representation from that which had been / see
balked by the Reform Bill. He replied—es it was surely
natural that he should do, and as he was bound to do—that be
had been a member of Earl Ore y's government, and as
such its organ in bringing forward the Reform Bill ; that
he was, therefore, not prepared, slier •o short a period had
I lapsed since it had peeved into law, to be the organ for the
introduction of • new and delfereot seems of parliamentary
representation. But he had said, at the same time, that it
was very possible some such measure might be c tiled for by
some change in public opinion, but that he did nut feel that
be could properly be the party to propound it to p slisment.
(Hi as.) The boa. member for the Tower Hamlets he I said
'bat because of that answer so returned by him, he (Lord J.
Resell) stood pl. dged to resist eve ry proposition for any,
even the slightest, alteration in the Reform Bill as it now
steed. But this was surely no fair cemstraition of his
answer. It was possible that others might have ad .pled it ;
bat,at the same time, he (Lord J. Russell) was bound to
state, that he did not think tbe Reform Bill quite perfect-
1t bail teeny impertectious, and was therefore susceptible of
anteadment. (Cheers.) He was not surprised that an
hon. friend of his (Sir 0. Strickland) should think the
course which the hon, member for Montrose proposed to
take on the question •as an inconsistent one. The hon.
genti min (Mr. Hum •) supported it as a step only, be said,
to other measure-, to the *dupe° a of which many mem-
bers on that side of the house were avowedly favourable.
But be (Lore J. Hanel) conceived that although it might
be but • step, it was one which would carry them all* long
way to the affirmative of all those extreme principles that
were comprised in what was called the " six points of the
charter." His bon. friend cooed not be surprised that he
(Lord J. Huse ll) shou'd be uneiliteg, therefore, to vote for
the motion of the hon. member tor Natingesm. That ban.
member, not content with introducing a bill to cony into
effect the objects proposed by the advocates of the six
points, had thought proper to emetics it with revelations
affirming certain principle.. That the people were the
source of all wealth"—" That the people were the source of
all legitimate power," he (Lod J Russell) was not prepared
to dispute ; but that "Labour should be permitted to take
the fruits of its own industry before capital received its own
sub's," he did not uncle nand. What was the meaning of
snob a proposition ? (fleas, hear.) Generally speaking.
labour agreed to give its aid for certain wages ; when this
me gives, sad the wages were paid, then (and
le thought the hon. member for Montrose would
z:
with
him in this) the contract was fulfilled. The
usually did not work fur anything beyond his emirs.
So Mew, indeed, that a similar principl • to that involved I.
tile km member for Nottingham's resolution bad been up-
WY germ.e time paean France ; end. for aught he knew, by
sago of diem who had been most instrumental in advocating
moss doctrines of the rights of labour, in recent periods of
pug political trouble, but it was never known to be upheld
la this country. The noble lord proceeded to ridicule the
aeries of charging the existing representative system with
tyranny and injustice. on account of its withholding from
very large classes of the community the elective franchise
The time was when Englishmen were accustomed to call
the males freaborn le-ghettoise, from their conviction, he
'rammed, that so 1 ng is they continued to act and live
within the limits of the law, they might set, a^d do, and say
Just what they pissed. Ile never heard before
that Englishmen considered themselves to be slaves
because ems of them w. re debarred from the privilege of '
eloosing members of parliameat. One hon. gentleman (Mr.
O Thompson) had talked about the 28,000,000 of the Eng-
lish people who wave cooceraed in this Memel question ;
did he propoee that every male at a week ole, who went in
addiiion to the adult males to stapes this aggregate, should
be invested with the right of voting ? (A laugh) And
what did be pr even to do wi h the ladise—(laughter)—a
part of the 28,000,000? Wm they to be excluded ? F r
his own part, he was convinced that there were very men,
indeed who, like Miss Martineau, were (Ilya% well qualified
to exercise this important privilege as avast number of thole
adult males who would be most d streneouely to refute
it to them The noble lord proceedltTe4onte it the promitions
selvaisced by the bon. member for Montrose (Mr. Kane)
with ngerd to the expediency of so large an extension of the
elective franchise es he advocated. With respect to the
only other topic upon which he sheeted touch, namely,
equal electorel dietriet a, he at least thought that the proposi-
tion of the lieu. member (Jr Nottingham was more intelligi-
ble than that of the hon. member for Montrose. (Hear'
bear ) He could understand very well a proposal that they
should diviie the country according to its population, and
that each district should have one or two members, That
was an intelligible proposition. That they would thus put an
end to the influence of the aristocracy, which seemed to be
the bugbear with some hen. members who had spoke, he
del not at all believe; because it there were representative*
in the agricultural districts, as, according to the plan of the
, hon. member, there would be—where there was conei !treble
property in the pessetsions either of one geal-man or
of several gentlemen living in the nu sty. that
influence would tell upon the election. (Hear, hese )
It would tell with universal suffrage almost as much as with
the present mode of election, and then could be no doubt
that it would greatly control the return of members to that
house. (Hear, hear.) He did not blessed think the system
would be so good an one as that which now existed. The
hen. gentleman who spoke last had, for the hundredth time,
stated the decrepaney between the number of the °mete
tummies, the population in some nes consisting of sixty sr
seventy thousand persons, and in others being comearetively
small. He (Lord I. Rusell) had never denied that such
was the fact under the present system of representation ;
what he said was, however, that although the existing repre-
sentation was not a representation of numbers, it was more
a representation of the whole community of this country
than would be a representation of districts divided
exactly according to population. (Hear, hear.) Under
a division into districts they would have many mem-