The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-12 00:00:00

PUBLIC

PETITIONS.—By Dr. LOWRING, from 3,204 members of bock
of Odd Fellows against the Friendly Minnie. 1011.—Mr. FORS TER.
from the klavor and Corporation of Bernick in fa., a of tie Marring
(Bcotand) J. V. BULLER, from the advent arten and misfire
of New Quay Consols Mine, Cornwall, asaint the Coma Ore Duties

--SECOND Poi; Sheep Importathoi Prohibt.
tion ; Sheep, lee., Contagious Dhordeni Prevention; Ont-PenAoneni';
Bilk,

CONlMlTlEF.S.—Nfetropolitan Commissions of Sewers; Awe...lona
able )lanars Commlysionera (Duchies of Cornwall and lene-oter);
Steam Navlgaßon ; Poor Removal (No. 2) ; Boroughs Incorputatlon ;

KE.PORTS.—Poor Law talons District //ohm's; Turnpike Acta
Continuance; Money Order Department (Post-ogiol :
THIRD READINGS.—Court or Justiesary (Soutold); Criminal
low Administration Amendment; Ile=re.:( rosincs (441414);
eft halve or Exteeisstical 4r Majesty and thr
Earl of loieeder Fiaherles (14= ',•
RETERNS ORDERE.D.—On the motion of Mr. IlEtt 1%, 'curios*,
returns relative to the priwate twine...of both /soave', of I arharonst.—
Air ft. VEHNET, return+ relative to the smirks ot %Ala, de., In
the Prerogative Court of Canterbury.
ELECTION PETITIONS.

Mr. THORNELY brought up the r.port of the corn
mince of selection of the member. to gene on the Chelten-
ham and Bonham election petitions.

HORSHAM ELECTION PETITION.

The follow:log=l32l*re were to the sworn
to try the merits of the petition contplainind of en undue
election and return for the boroutth of Horsham : Mr. T. W.
Bramston (chairman). Hon. Mr. Corry, Dr. lieu ling, Mr.
Moused, and Mr. Sunbury.

CHELTENHAM ELECTION PETITION.
The iollowina memt,, rs woe sworn to tiy ti s molts of
the petition coniplaining of en undue election and return for
the borough of Cheltenham : Sir W. Clay (Ootirmar.), Mr.
Ogle, Mr. R. Pal er, Mr. Thickneue, anti the lion. ;Copt.
Barris.

I REGISTERING OF BIRTHS, ETC. (SCOTLAND),
BILL, AND MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the mot.on of the Loup ADTOCATIE the orders of the
day for the committal of bath these hills were read end Ns-
charaed, both measures being withdrawn for the present
session.
SUPPLY.

On the motion that the Sr rexeli do leave the chair for the
house going into cemmittee on the navy esfmatee,
:Or. URQUHART rose for the purpose (pursuant to his
notice) of calling the attention of the house to the uselessness
of the expenditure for diplomatic agents abroad, when
Mr. 11. 0. WARD said that as the noble lord at the
head of the government and the noble lord the Secrets' y for
Foreign Affairs were both engaged upon public business else-
where, he must put it to the hon. member whether he would
not postpone his motion to the bringing up the report of
supply on Monday, when both noble lords would be in their
places.
Mr. URQUHART consented, and postponed his motion
until Monday next.
Sir 1). L. EVANS complained of an attack mode a few
nights ago by the hon. member for Stafford (Mr. tirquhatt)
upon the characters of Gin. D'Afruilar, Col. Brereton, and
Commodore IsP Dougal for the part they had token in the
Canton expedition. The hon. member had cot only spoken
diaparagingly of the services of those gallant officers, but
had designated them as pirates, inasmuch so they had reed
without lawful authority. He (Sir 1). L. Evans) begged
to state that they had only obeyed the ord. rs of the high
commissioner at il^eg.Kong, Sir John Davis, who was her
Mojeny's representative there, and whoseorders were strictly
Mr. URQUHART disclaimed that he had been actuated
by any personal feeling towards the gallant officer. who had
been namt d, but sold, from a conviction, after a laborious
study of the laws of war and of nations, that the proceedings
had been wholly illegal. The hon. member •146 proceeding
at some length to expound his views on the subject, when
Capt. HARRIS rose to order. The clerk at the table
might as usefully be called upon to read a chapter from
Viittel or enooie. oo owe eenvereation to be continued.
It bad nothing to do with Inc
met, viz., the disposal of the army and easy estimates.
Mr. HUME recommended the hon. member for Stafford
to bring forward the question he had reised as a substantive
motion before the session closed.
Capt. PECHELL joined in that recommendation, and the
conversation, which had been somewhat of a personal cha-
racter, dropped.
The house then went into committee of supply.
On the vote of 139,3301. for the salaries of officers and
contingent expenses of the naval establishment at Ports-
mouth,
Capt. PECIIELL wished to call the attention of the
Secretary to the Admiralty to the advantage and economy
of using marine glue instead of pitch for the purpose of
caulking ships. The most distinguished officers of the navy
bore testimony to its great value, and he hoped the admi-
ralty would give it a fair trial, and do justice to its inventor,
Mr. Jeffrey. It had answered with perfect suxese in
the case of the Penelope.
Lord J. HAY could assure the hon. gentleman that the
present Board of Admiralty, as well me the last, had every
disposition to do justice to Mr. Jeffrey, but it was necessary,
in the first instance, to ascertain that the material possessed
advantages over that commonly used. With regard to the
question of economy, the late Board of Admiralty had some
marine glue manufactured in Chatham Dockyard in 1843,
and the result, on a manufacture of ten tone, showed that the
cost W 11361. 61. 4d., the cost of pitch, for which it was to
Le substituted, being 51. 17s. Gd. per ton at the present price.
He admitted that the marine glue had answered exceedingly
wed in the Penelope on the Coast of Africa. It would only
answer, however, in the upper decks, because the smell in
the lower decks could not be endured. It cooled so quickly
also that it would sot do for the sides and bottoms of the ves-
eels. If marine glue, however, was found to succeed, justice
would be done to Mr. Jeffrey ; but the compensation which
Sir. Jeffrey asked for varied very much. At first be asked
for 30,0001., and then he reduced it to 15,0001. He could
assure his hon. and gallant friend that there was no indispo-
sition to do justice to Mr. Jeffrey.
Mr. HUME thought that the Admiralty should give the
invention a fair trial. He believed it would answer perfectly
well in situations exposed to the weather.
Mr. WARD said that if the Admiralty were satisfied with
the advantage of the invention, they would not hesitate to
support Mr. Jeffrey's claim. It was certainly a fair case for
compensation. The only question was whether it would
answer, end experiments were making to nimertsio that.
Capt. PECIIELL hoped that the discussiin would do
good, and he promised that if justice was not done, the raa-
.ine glue would stick to the hon. and gallant gentleman
below him. (Laughter.)
Me. HUME thought that a great deal of expense might
be saved by reducing the number of dockyards. The petty
officers superintending the dockyards were also in too great
number. He believed that a fatal mistake was made in
building ships when they were not wanted, and then allow-
ing them to rot. They had 208 ships, and 54 slops of the
line lying in ordinary, and he believed that no use vhatever
was made of these vessels after they were launch. il. He
thought that they should keep their ships and dock, sad' at
the lowest pose,ble amount, but that these should be a., the
best state of preparation for any emergency. He never de-
sired that they should run the risk of losing their novel
supremacy from considerations of pounds, shillings, ai't
pence, but he believed that by adopting a better system, they
would maintain that supremacy, and at the same time save
a great deal of the public money. (Hear. hear.)
After a few words from Capt. liakule,
Mr. CURRY said that a. long a ,there was a possibility
war, it would be impossible for them to do away altogether
with ships in ordinary.
Mr. COBDEN re.affirmed the statement which he had
made on a former occasion, at which the noble lord en-
prerseil his incredulity, namely, that they expended more
money in their 170 steam-vessels-, than was invested in -11
the merchant vessels of Great Britain and Ireland, whether
employed in the foreign or coasting trade. Unless they were
driven into financial infatuation, they would awaken to the
folly of keeping up such an expenditure. But at all events
one would expect that se they increased their steam-yeesels,
they would diminish their sailing vessels. That, however,
was not the care, for notwithstanding the great increase of
their dam navy, they spent more money now en account
of their sailing semis, than they did in 11435, although the
number of seiline vessels was greater in 1835 than at present.
(Hear, hear.) This diminution was in the smaller dames of
vessels only,. for there were GI ships of the larger classes in
she
Indeede sent
theyyear might
IS
hatmaared.tisfiwediththat4l ship
had increesed the navy generally from a comparison of the
ie commissiont
the yes 1)835' h.
number of men—the number in 1835 being 27,000, and in
the present year 43,000, being an increase of 16,000 men.
It must be recollected also that the cost of maintaining
steam-yereels, was far greater than that of sailing.vessele,
and it was for the consideration of the house whether it wry
neceesauy to keep up the same number of stiling-vemels.
Mr. WARD heard with great pleasure and gratification
the observations of the hon. member for Montrose. No burd
of admiralty could desire more than to have a sufficient rut.
Tal force to maintain the naval supremacy of the country.
When his hon friend spoke of vessels being built and not
used, he should bear in mind that it was necessary for them
to adapt their vesicle to the changes which were made in the
vessels of foreign powers. (Hear, hear.) In the last wee
with America they bad suffered greatly from sending I=ol
vessels to contend with the larger aid more powerful class of
vessels used by the enemy. (Hear, hear.) Looking to the
possible contingency of a rupture, would at be desirable that
they should not be able to meet the enemy on at least equal
terms ? With regard to the observations of the hon. mem
bet for the Welt Riding, he begged to remind his hoe

if •

,~,..

friend that it.was on their steam navy they must mainly rely
for the defence of the coast. The consequence of the intro-
duction of steam was, that it made their coasts more acces•
able to the attack of the enemy. Thee power in sailing
vessels was indisputable, but steam placed foreign countries I
more on on equality with them ; and the whole of their
sailing veer: is would not be able to protect their shores from
insult and attack. The expense consequent on that change
in naval affairs was now nearly at an end ; anti uring the
the
ensuing recess he promised that the whole subject of
naval establishment would undergo investigation, and eco-
nomy would be practised wherever it was practicable.on her
Mr. CORRY said that when her Majesty was
visit on the coast of France four or five vessels were ordered
to watch the yacht in which her Majesty railed, in order to
fire satires when they came in with it. But although these
vessels were under an officer who was well acqusi ted with
the Coast, he Wall not able once during the time that the visit
lasted to find the yacht. (Laughter.)
Mr. COBDEN dissented from the doctrine that the appli-
cation of steam to naval purposes was a disadvantagees to
over
this
country. This country possessed great advantag
other countries in coal and troy—the two elements whi,
made up the efficiency of steam. It therefore surprised him
to hear th•at tne risult of the application o steam to naval
purposes was to place this country in a worse position relative
to others.
Mr. WARD said that he did not state that steam played
them in a disadvantage. But it was the opinion of many
that it ma& a bridge across the channel.
Mr. COBI)hIN said that if it made a bridge at all it was
a bridge ;or them, and not fur the French. It was too much
the habit if persons in responsible situations to take alarm at
the inii4inaiy superiority of other countries, and to frighten
civilians like himself into the belief that they were going to
be invaded by other powers.
Sir D. L. EVANS said that if there was a bridge
there eduld be no doubt that the enemy had a portion of it,
and it won necessary to take every precaution in coissequence.
The Fr. nch government had a powerful steam navy, and
surely our government was obliged to have as large, if not a
superior iine. The ton. gentleman (the member for the
West Iti hi g i and the hon. member for Montrose, admitting
that we ought to maintain our naval suigetnacy, would go
on to ilitnii.inli h • navy of the country till they had no ship.
et all. That seemed to hint to be very inconsistent. lie
much doubted whether either of those hon. gentlemen was
ever in a man-fit-war, and yet they laid down the law in the
meet positive m inn, r, in the face of naval officers.
Ada. DUN DAS said it was their duty to he provided
with a proper ft et when necessary. and they would deserve
to loge their heads if they failed in that duty.
Mr ROBINSON was desirous of saving expense, but dill
not think the t they could spare a single ship with safety.
Mr. COBDEN thought that the hon. aid gallant member
for W.ntiuinnter was somewhat rash in coming to the rescue
of the navy or this r cession. lie would measure the candour
of the hem gentleman's attack by the expression he made
use of, namely, that lie and his hon. friend wished they
should have .• no naval force at all." Neither his hon. (How
nor hi itinelf hail said auything of the kind, and the lion gentle-
man hail im right tu mike such • statement for them. What
they contended for was, that they should hose some regard
to the tax-payers of the country as well as the naval service.
(Hear, hear.) He thought the shopkeepers of Westmiriter
hed as good a claim to be considered as nava' officers. Atter
all it would be well to leave them something worth fighting

for. ( Hear.)
Sir I). L. IVANS said that he r fermi to the proposi-
tion mule on a termer occasion by the hon. gentleman,
namely, tl a. they should begin by disarming their force, and
giving an example to Europe to lower theirs. That proposition
he considered to he altogether absurd. The hon. gentleman
and the hon. member for Montrose would seem to be the
only two valiant men in England, because they described
every other person who differed from them as being in a
state of panic. (Laughter.)
Mr. III.; E said the hon. gentleman perverted every
thing that had fallen from him, as he generally did.
(Laughter.) He had stated distinctly that be desired to see
the naeal supremacy of this country maintained. How, then,
could the hon. gentleman assert that he wanted to reduce
the naval torce to a state of inefficiency ? The hon. gentle.
man alwata voted for anything that would increase the army
or navy, but no vote of his was dsstined to reduce the public
expenditure; Ile (Mr. Hume) was fur saving in time of
peace that they might be more efficient in time of war.
(Hoar, hear.)
Sir D. L. EVANS said he had alluded to the hon. msm-
her for the W. et Riling. lie hoped therefore, the hon.
member would withdraw the harsh expressions he used to-
wards him.
Mr. HUME made no pen mat allusion to the hon. mem-
ber for Westminster, but when he saw the use made of sonic
observations of his hon. friend by a paper that day, he wished
to guard him-elf against being misrepresented. lie believed
that the prime mi-.ister concurred is the views of. his hon.
friend, an-1 said that it would he better for both I. ranee and
England to give on vying with each other, and reduce their
pective establishments. He did not make a personal at-
tack but he would not suffer himeelt to be bearded by any
man, or allow hie statements to be misrepresented.
Sir 1). L. EVANS Laid that it aas the hon. gentlemta
who had attacked him in the most violent manner.
Mr. HUME—Not at all. (Laughter.)
In answer to Capt HARRIS,
Admiral DUNDAS said it was not the intention of the
Board of Admiralty to build any more ships on the principle
of the Eurydice, as steam-wails were more advantageous.
The vote wes then aereed to, as were the following votes :
2i 8391 exs-ensee ni n”..1
91i,stot.,wnges of artificers and labourers employed in the
naval establishments at home.
39,2081., wages of artificers and labourers employed
abroad.
25,0751., medical gone.
66,5171., miece'laneous naval services.
181,3221, chatters of victualling ships and conveying troops
on account if the army and ordnance.
43,6021. for charge s relating to convicts. Agreed to.
The chairman then vacated, to resume the chair at 5
o'clock.
At 5 o'clock Mr. BERN AL resumed the chair.
Sir D. L. EVANS took the earliest opportunity
afforded him for assuring his hon. friend, the member for
Diontrue, , that hi was a stremely sorry to find his observa-
tions, dni.ng the morning sitting, had given umbrage to his
hon. triend.
Mr. 11 UM El said that he had certainly felt offended at be-
ing accused of ignorance and misstatement by his hon. friend,
but as there WAS not a more placable man in the house than
he was. he begged to express his regret at having told his
hon. frie 0.1 that his goats ment was a gross perversion of facts,
and likewise to withdraw that observation.
The next vote proposed from the chair was for the sum of
557,2331 for naval stores.
Mr. ELLIOT called attention to • remark of the hon.
and gallant member for Greenwich, who had stated in reply to
a question from the hon.and gallant member for Christchurch
that he " boded the Admiralty bad done with amateur ship-
builders;" and thin proceeded to vindicate the character of
the frigate Eurydice, which had been built by a-gallant ad-
miral a sear relation of his own.
Adm. DUNDAS stated it was not his intention to throw
any slar. ,aer the ehii, built lay Admiral Elliot, but merely
to record ti,, p:nion entertained by the Board of Admiralty
respecting nm item' shipbuilders.
Mr. HUME resumed the obeervatione which hod been
interrupted in the morning respecting the dockyard battal-
ions, which he strongly objected to. When the report was
brought up he should move to leave out the vote of 30,0001
for these battalions, if only to record his opinion.
NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY.
Sir C DOUGLAS called attention to the unusual course
olproceeding by the chairman of the committee of supply
not reporting progress, so as to allow those: hon. members
who had notices et motion to bring them on at 5 o'clock,
when the Speaker took the chair.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had consulted the Speaker
es to the regularity of the chairman adjourning the house,
and he Renal there was no objection in point of order; and
mno hon. member made any objection the committee had
adjourned.
Mr. H. BERKELEY said it had been his intention to ask
• question of the right hon. gentleman opponite respecting
the differences between the engine-drivers and the directors
tithe North Wiener Railway Company.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that it his hon. friend had
given notice of his intention he would have been prepared to
answer it ; and his hon. friend the chairman of the North
Western Railway Company wieubi have been present to give
some infeernation on the subject. All he could Fay wee.
that the Railway Board. ha I no power to interfere between
the engine-drivers and their employers, beyond calling the
attention of the railway company to the safety of the public.
He had received an assurance that the public safety had been
'Off:Beaty eared for by precautions already taken. He hat.,
however reason to believe that the engine-drivers were in
communieetien with their employers, and that the existing
differences we re 1 kelv to be cleared up.
Lard G. BENTINCK begged to protest against the un
usual pre ceding nel-pted on the pros- oecasion, of not re-
porting p.a, tete in the ordinary manner.
Lord J RUSSELL again si.a. that he was ready at once
to move that the chairman should report progress, if the
noble lord persisted in wishing it.
Mr. HUME took his share of the responsibility for having
departed from the ordinary course of proceeding. The only
'hare which the government bad taken in it was by acqui-
escing in the proposal to adjourn the committee for a couple
of hours.
Lord G. BENTINCK did not desire to put the house to
inconvenience, but only to protest agai not the present course
being drawn into a precedent.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was for 326,6011. for cost of new works, re
pain, and other expenses.
Mr. C01.11)16N protested against the system of construct-
ing boilers for government steam-vessels, instead of taking
them on contract.
Mr. H. G. WARD said that the Admiralty would not
readily abandon the present system of constructing the vari-
ous parts of machinery for the steam ships of the navy.
Mr. CORRY supported the vote, and combated the, objec-
tions raised by the hon. member for the West Riding (Mr.
Cobden).
Mr. COBDEN reiterated his former objections, and de-
nied that the select committee had given any implied opinion
that the works at Keyham ought to be completed. At all
events he hoped no further money would be voted except
such an amount as was necessary to meet the contracts
already entered into.
Alter slew words from Mr. Corm. in explanation,
Copt. RAE HIS eupportcd the vote on the ground that
the construction of basins was essential to enure expedition
in the fitting out war steamers for service. With regard to
building boilers by oontract, he must observe that if that
practice wan adopted, the country would be at the mercy of
the coetrectors in time of war.
Mr. COBDEN observed, the country was already elepen
dent on centraetors tor the supply of 'team engines.