The Express.
London, England, 1847-07-12 00:00:00

• 2

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—SATURDAY, JULY 10.
The Sramesst took the chair at half-put 12 o'clock.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
FIRST READlNO.—lnclosure of Cbminceis
SECOND READlNo3.—Dertltuta POROUS (Ireland) (No. 3);
Public Waits end Drainage (Ireland); Bills.
COMMllTEE.—Constabolary Faroe (Ireland) ; Bill.
REPORlEN.—Oonatabulary Puree (Deism') ssam sad Soper-
**amities ; Herring Misery (Lamtland) ;
THIRD READINGSt -Compensation for Damages (Ireland); Poll-
ing at Elections (Ireland); Bills.
THAMES CONSERVANCY BILL.
Oaths motion of Mr. MCIIE, the petition of the brewers
and others in and near the metropolis, presented on the Bth
mat. against the Thames Conservancy Bill, was ordered to
be printed with the vote*.
SUPPLY.
Mr. GREENE brought up the report of the committee of
supply, which was read and agreed to.
NAVIGATION- (No. 2) BILL.
On the report of the Navigation(No.2)Bill being brought up,
Lord J. MANNERS moved the addition of a clause to
suspend the stamp duties on policies of insurance effected on
grain-laden British ships till the Ist March, 1848.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the clause.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. Forster, and Mr.
Thernely, the clause was withdrawn, the report wen them
to, and the bill ordered be read a third time em
Mondayedto
nest.
RECOVERY OF PUBLIC MONIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOU of the EXCHEQVIta,
the house resolved itself into committee on the Recovery of
Public Monies (Ireland) Bill.
Lord CLEMENTS said he objected altogether to this
bill. Perhaps these were the last words he might utter in
that house and he must say that it was most unfair and
unjust to house,
for the repayment of those loans from a
country which the government must know was in a state of
bankruptcy at the present moment. He doubted whether
it would he possible or practicable to pet the money back
under any circumstances. The whole course of this legisla-
tion for Ireland was unfair and unjust in the last degree.
Mr. HUME said that if the Irish members acted the part
which the noble lord (Clements) appeared disposed to do,
they would shut up the charity of this country. Instead of
expressing his gratitude to the ministers for giving up halt
the loan, he abused them for not making them a present of
the whole. Such a return could only lead to the suspension
of all assistance to Ireland. There was at present a very
strong feeling in this country that Ireland did not pay its
proportion of taaation ; and in two or three months this
feeling would probably increase, seeing the returns that were
made for the smiatance rendered to Ireland.
Mr. P. SCROPE had no doubt that all the jobbing and
misconduct amongst relief committees and at presentment
sessions had arisen from a belief that the money advanced
would a be required from them again. They had acted
just as though they were squandering English money, and
not their own. It was therefore most important to make it
clearly understood by the landlords in future what propor-
tion of the loans of advances would be required to be repaid.
Sir. J. GRAHAM thought a clear understanding most
essential, both to the people of Great Britain and of Ireland.
He understood that upwards of nine millions bad been
advanced in the last twelve or fourteen months, of which
one-half was to be coesidered is &grant, and the other halite
be repaid is instalments extending over from five to ten years.
With regard to this repayment, it was important that the
utmost good faith should be observed ; still, however abun-
dant might be the next harvest, in twiny cases any repay-
ment in the next year would be imposaible. To meet these
eases, he would give the government a discretion to defer the
repayment ; but there must be a commencement of the lay-
ing of rates for that purpose.
Lord CLEMENTS said that Ireland owed a great debt of
gratitude to the munificence of the English public; but be
spoke of the legislature and the government when he said
they had acted imprudently. They might as well require
repayment of alms from a passing beggar in the street. The
government should know that it was impossible to repay
these advances. Not half the land was cropped this, year;
in many cues the stock had come to England; and they
could not get their loan cut of the bare land. He bad said
all along that this was an impracticable bill. He alluded to
the provision of the Irish poor-law, which made the chair-
men of boards of guardians responsible for their acts before
the magistrate. Were such a thing attempted in England,
the government would be hurled front their seats in twenty-
four hours.
_ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed
surprise at the speech of the noble lord, and said that no
more unfitting opportunity could have been taken to utter
such sentiments ; for the bill under discussion went to re-
lieve the people of Ireland from the repayment of half
the advances, which bad kept thousands and thousands from
starving during the past twelve months. (Hear.) He en-
tirely acquiesced in the view taken by the right hon. baronet
opposite (Sir J. Graham), that it would be bearing too hardly
on the people of Ireland to require repayment of more than
half the advances. The first instalment would only be c.lled
for next spring, and would not be paid till about this time
next year. Calm* it was meant to repudiate repayment
altogether, which he did not believe, more favourable terms
could not have been granted. (Meer) It was his belief
that great distress would again prevail after autumn ; but
the only charge for the met taelve months would be the le-
vying of rates to maintain their own poor. Could it be
expected that this country should exempt the Irish landlords
for ever from maintaining their own poor? (Hear.) He
much regretted the observations that had been made by the
noble lord (Clemson), but had no doubt, notwithstanding,
that the landlords generally would cheerfully make the
repayments.
Mr. TRELAWNY said it was aboard to suppose that the
landlords could not make this repayment of four millions
and a half, when the fee simple of the land in Ireland was at
least eleven :zillions. He believed it was the duty of the
house to enforce the repayment, even if they sold the land
and the landlords along with it. (Laughter.) Considering
the great distress which had prevailed in the west of Ragland
in the last three months, there were good grounds for making
for a grant from Ireland to relieve it--at least, the same
grounds for making a grant from the public funds as existed
112 the ease of Ireland.
Mr. W. PATTEN said the feelings of this country ware
very acute on the subject of these advances to Ireland. The
county he represented was overrun with Irish poor and
disease. Liverpool alone supported .10,000 or 70,000 paapas,
who ought to be supported by the Irish landlords. (Hear,
hear.) He did not believe that the noble lord (Clements)
had eapreased the feelings of his country towards England ;
although his speech would undoubtedly be very injurious to
his own country, in the event of another appeal, which was
not unlikely, to the benevolence of England.
Lord CLEMENTS said, if there was a place in the world
which deserved to be taxed for the benefit of Ireland
it was Liverpool, which had profited more by the Irish and
by Irish distress than any place in the United Kingdom.
Nearly all the money of Ireland was spent there ; it might
in fact be regarded as the capital of Ireland.
Mr. NEWDEGATE denied the assertion that Liverpool
had profited by the Irish distress. He hoped the house
would not be deterred, by such speeches as they had heard,
from doing their duty to that unhappy country. He ques-
tioned the ability of the Irish landlords to repay these ad-
vances; a condition which was mainly attributable to the
way in which Ireland had been treated by this country.
Mr. BROTH ERTON concurred in the sentiments of the
hon. member for North Lancashire (Mr. Patten). It was
absurd to talk of Liverpool being indebted to Ireland ; the
Irish had there found good customers for their agricultural
produce. (Hear, beer.) The noble lord (Clements) had
taken the worst means he could to nerve his country ; should
the distress continue, there would be a strong feeling against
any further advances.
Sir R. FERGUSON disclaimed the speech of the noble
lord (Clements) as any index to the feeling of the Irish
people. He doubted not that the same regularity as had
hitherto prevailed in the repayment of advances would con-
tinue, with the exercise of a little discretion on the part of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had thought of sug-
gesting that the payments might be a little expedited. He
much regretted the express
ion which the noble lord
dClements) had used with regard to Liverpool, which had
oubtless suffered most severely in consequence of the influx
of Irish poor. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY had heard with
pain the remarks of the noble lord (Clemente), and it was
with much grief he had seen that many parties in Ireland,
including some of the Roman Catholic clergy, had given ex-
pression to very bitter feelings against the government, whom
sancerity in desiring to relieve Ireland could not be doubted.
Mr. BROWN defended Liverpool from the charges of
would, on

Lord Clements, and hoped that that noble lord would, on
due reflection, withdraw the amertions he had made.
Lord CLEMENTS again explained, that he had meant to
cast no rettexion on English benevolence.
Mr. P. AlNti WORTH said he had supported the extot-
sive advances made to Ireland; and while the house was
liberal they ought to be just.
The clause was then agreed to, as were the remaining
clauses, with BOHM verbal amendments, when the house
resumed, and the report was ordered to be brought up on
Monday.
t
INCLOSURE OF COMMONS.
.
, I
Lord MORFETH brought in a bill to amend the act for
i
the indosare and improvement of commone, which waa read
a first time.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
In answer to a question from Sir J. GRAHAM,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
, ..
house would meet at three o'clock on Monday, and he
should move a committee of supply before the other orders,
andin that committee he proposed to take the Ways and
- Means. The Bishopric of Manchester Bill would certainly
not come on until Tuesday, but most probably not until
, Thursday next.
, . The house adjourned at half-past two.
. CI BUSINESS OF THE WEEK IN THE LORDS.
1 MONDAY, lose 12.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.--Bneolen ar.sandok—Turapike Roads
Lori Wales) ; Canada Consolidated Fund Revenue; Print Works ;
4 Ccoremnsns.—Peduction and Prostitution Suppreaaion ; Railways
(Ireland) (No. 2) ; Fishery Piers and Ilarboun (Ireland; ; Tithes Corn.
. mutation; llolylued Harbour ; HOW of Commons Costs Taxation ;
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