The Express.
London, England, 1848-05-19 00:00:00

1141PERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORIIB.—TUTRADAY, MAT 18.
Tie LOS]) CIAANCMILLOR took his seat at 5 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINP23S.
SECOND READlNG.—Jervia's Divorce (India) Bill.
COMMITTSR. -Maxweirs Restitution Bill.
PUBLIC BUSINFAIS.
SECOND READING.--Fenoke Prohibition BM.
PETiTIONS.—By the Earl of BANDON, hook Cork, against the
national mute= of education in Irelend.—The Illation of DURIIAM.
from various jaor• in Yorkshire and Durham, and from Truro • and
by the Bistio of ()NEMO), from places in Berke and DV 1,
Wind the eof intoxicating liquortou the Sabbath.--Lad CAMP-
BELL, from the free church of Mdinburnh, praying fo wane snow
of obtaining sine:— Duke of BEAUFORT, from whoolmastera In
Sootiaad, raying for an aiiinueatation of their salarim.--Earl
f
lIADDINL,TON, from the borough of Iladdingtoa, in favour of the
Jewish linahnities Bill.—Lard STANLEY, horn a place not beard.
Earl Ft 11. WILLIAM. from several place. in Yorkshire, against the
foregoing bill.—Earl —Earl of lIADDINOToN, hem psrochial school-
muter!, in Scotland, praying for an augmentation of their
altinerim—
Earl I.IIZWILLIAM, from Rotherham, and another place, u e sub-
joet of the removal of the poor.
SCOTCH SCHOOLMASTERS.
Lord WHARCLIFFE, on presenting a petition fro
&WVm
the parochial achoolmwdere of Scotland, praying for an
mentetion of their salaries, said that he would now put the
the
question of which he had given notice, on the subject of
grants to be made by the Committee of the Privy Couat;il fur
education, under the minutes of lull, to parish schoolmaa-
ten in Scotland. The noble lord made a statement which
was inaudible in the gallery, but it was understood that he
wished to know the grounds on which the grants had been
made—whether any applications had been made, and a so,
what number and to what amount ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said there had been a
great many applications made, i 0 for schools and 28 for the
augmentetion of the salaries of sehoolmasters. They were
now un :ir consideration, and would receive the best and
must careful attention.
After a few words from the Earl of Haunitiovole, the
Earl of :Sitsto, the Marquis of BitnADALBANII, and the I
Duke of liecotxten, the subject dropped.
SMOKE PROHIBITION BILL.
Lord REDESDALE moved the second reading of this bill.
The subject had been so fuily inquired into that there could
be no 7%. ceepity for further investigation, and he did taut an-
ticipate any opposition to the hill.
Earl GRANVILLE would not oppose the second reading
of the bill, but he would throw out, for the consideration of
the noble lord, whttker it would not be better to poetpone
it until the house had had an opportunity of seeing the gene-
ral sanitary measure now before the other house of puha-
ment ?
Earl FITZWILLIAM was andentood to express a simi-
lar opinion.
Lord PORTMAN thought the immense volumes of smoke
from lrge chimneys was a groat nuisance, and it wan
efo proved
that it might be easily prevented. lie should therefore sup-
port the bill.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE approved of the principle
of the bill most heartily ; he, however, thought it desirable
that its further stages should be postponed.
Lord REDESDALE said the Health of Towns Bill was
not very likely to come before their lordships until a very
late period of the session, and lie therefore thought that to
wait for that bill would be to suspend the subj. et for the ses-
sion. The evil was a very great one, anti was constantly get-
ting worse, and he did not see any reason for not ,proceeding
with the 11.
Lord CAMPBELL supported the bill which was then
read a second time.
Their lordships adjourned at half-past six o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUURSDAY, MAY 18.
The Secants took the chair at 4 o'clock.

------ -
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
REPORTS CONSIDERED.—MidIand Railway (alteration of the
line and bnutrber near Wellingborough, and approach to the Wel-
lingborough station) ; North Smith Railtray, No. I (increase and
division 54 capital) ; Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, and Dublin Rail.

way ; Bills.
THIRD READlNGS.—Brentford Gem Light Arta .kmndment ;
Liverpool G. Light Company and Uremia' New Gaa sail Gam
Company Amalg'a'mation ; Santish Provident Institution ; Bills.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS,—By Mi. W. B. M'CLINTOCK from !several parishes in
Ireland, praying (sir inereand Fermin to the Church Education Society
in Irelan,L —Lord BERNARD, from places in Cork county, on the
eubjecq of the poor low.—Mr. PEARSON, from solicitors of Derby,
for the abolition of the certificate duty.—Mr. MACKINNON, from
Lyinington, in favour of Public Health BilL—Mr. M•GREGOR, from
• place not heard, praying for a Coolies hill. —Lori MORPETIL and
several other bon. _members, from various places, in favour of Public
Health Bill. Also several from pi.ices in Scotland, in favour of
Bites of Churches Bill, and praying for alterations in the tact. laws.
CoMMITTEP--(bileetion of thins (Ireland) Bill.
NOTICES OF MOTlON.—Yianuv Puernua—Mr ANDERSON,
on Tuesday next, to move for returns of rates of postage to and Irian
pin, in the Mediterranean and the East Indies.
Ypoirat an, far Lists —CoL CONOLLY, on Monday neat, to pat •
question to the Secretary for Ireland, as to whether the fisheries, re-
cently establithed on the ...item pasts of Ireland, bad answered the
purposes Intended, and paid their espensee.
SPaeraL .11 lartants—M r. KEOGH, on Monday nest, to move
for a return of the names of the specisl jurors struck in the we of
Mr. Smith OBrie, distinguishing those of tbe Roman catholic reli-
gion. Also a similar return in the awe of Mr. Meagher.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
In answer to a question from Sir J. HANKER,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he proposed taking the com-
mittee on the Public Health Bill the first thing that evening,
with the understanding that the house ►hould resume at U
o'clock. He should then proceed with his hon. friend's bill,
relative to ciontrov,rted elections. He would also take that
opportunity of stating the intention of the government with
reference to the navigation laws. He proposed resuming
the committee on the Public Ilealeh Bill to-morrow
(Friday) se'nnight, to be followed by committee of supply.
That being the case, end hon. members having expressed •
strong wish that the navigation laws shout. be fixed for the
Monday following, he was ready to accede to their wishes,
with the understanding that they should then and at once
take into consideration the resolution of the Louse, and pro-
ceed to the introduction of a bill. The opinion of the go-
vernment and the house had been so clearly expensed on the
subject as to rtnder any further delay, in hi, opinion, un-

neceHrsary.
MI UME asked what estimates woul.l be taken in com-
mittee of niggly ?
Lewd .1 RUSSELL said the hi: right bon. friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would inform the house to-
mor:ow (this day).
Mr. {YAWN wished that the discotion on the sub-
ject of the navigation laws should be postponed until after the
introduction of the bill.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
The order of the day for a committee on the Public Health
Bill was then read.
Col. SIBTHORP stated his intention of opposing the bill
in all its stages, as a centralising, inquiaitorial, and unoonsti
tutienal measure. One objection he bad to the bill was that
it appointed several officers without stating what were to be
their salaries. Another, that it had been placed so recently
in the hands of members as to leave no tame for perusal or
consideration. He moved that the house go into committee
on the bill that day six months.
After an observation from Mr. FILEWEN which did not
reach the gallery,
Mr. HUDSON begged to call the attention of the noble
lord at the head of the government to those chums which
went to exclude those places which 'heady had local acts.
VILA the noble lord aware thatunc hundred and ninety towns
would be so excluded ?
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would be more convenient
to'cliscuss the intentions of clause+ when the house got into
c-mmittee. The hon. member would then find that they
did not hear the construction he was disp.std to give them.
Mr.'MACKINNON mid he did not rise for the purpose of
opposing the committee, but to remark on tome observations
which had been made, and which, in his opinion, did not do
justice to either the noble lord at the to ad or the Woods and
Forests or. tdalr.Chadwick. The hon. member for Exeter had
accused the noble lord of adopting the hill at the suggestion
of Mr. Chadwick. Now that was not a fair remark. Mr.
Chadwick hod been called upon, about four years since, by
the Home Secretary of the late government, to give informa-
tion respecting the Interments in Towns Bill, and made an
able report as to the sanitary con itien of the country. Of
course, when the present government came into office, Mr.
Chadwick was the first person consulted by the noble lord
on the subject of the public health, and the noble lord could
not have had a better counsellor.
Mr. DIVETT remarked that what he had stated and
wat he maintained was, that the grossest exaggeiation had
bi h
en resorted to to get up a case for this hill. He happens d
to know that his noble friend the member for Plymouth
and Mr. Chadwick had gone about, like Siamese twins, to
thel different county towns to get up statements ; and that
those statements were exaggerated was proved by a commu
imitation he had received from the Mayor of Exeter, • town
which had been describ, d to be in the most its plorable con-
dition, swing that the supply
.of water was good, that very
large sums had leen laid out in sanitary and other improve-
ments, and that there was, perhaps, r.n town in the kingdom
more healthy or in which mortality was lower. This was the
kind of misstatement of which he complained, and upon
which the cue for the bill was roundest.
Mr. URQUHART went through vari,,us details of the
bill, and, comparing them with the provisions of the Muni-
cipal Act of lfe:ls, showed that the principle of popular go-
vernment was neglected, and that the great object of the
measure was to centralise all power in the hands of the
government. He suggested that the committee should be
postponed for a month, to give time to ministers for recon-
sideration, and to effect such alterations in the measure as
should make it applicable not to • part euly but the
whole of the country, and obtain for it the general
assent of tke public, without which it was impossible for it
to work well. lle had been commissioned by the whole of
his constituency to give the moat determined opposition to
the bill in its present shape. It had been stated on a former
occasion that a petition in favour of the bill had been pre-
sented, signed not only by the clergy but the whole of the
medical profession, whereas the fact was, that there was net
a medical man in Stafford who had not either signed the re-
quisition for the meetings out of which the petitions against
the bill had originated, or the petitions themselves. It was
true that a petition in favour of the bill had been got up by
an apothecary, who was neither a ratepayer nor au inha-
bitant, except so far as he was an inhabitant by being the
house-surgeon to • hospital, and who, he believed, had ex-
pc:t snots of some appointment under the bill.
The house divided—For going into committee 219
For the amendment • 1-218
The announcement of the numbers was (Keine' with
cheers and laughter.
The house then resolved itself into committee.
On the Ist clause being proposed, lu answer to a question
from Mr. CAItbWELL,
The ATTORNEY-OENERAL expiained that in towns
which had local boards tke bill would not operate without
Hie intervention of parliament. It would apply. to Liverpool
this way a preliminary inquiry would be institOtcd by
ternmisaion under the bill, and the result would be ci:`,ll-
lauric" at,:sl and parliamentary anthorit! obtained before the

operation of the law would be extended to that town. With
regard to London it was different: there preliminary in-
uiry was in progress, and the was no neassity, therefore,
re ,r
milkier this provision apply.
Mr. CARDWELL said that In Liverpool there was now a
sanitary hill in opvretion, which had been framed in refer-
ence to the local circumstances of the town, and which was
in every way more suited to it than the premat bill. He
could not understand why London should be exempted
while Liverpool was included.
Lord MORPETH repeated the explanation which had
been given by the Attorney•Oeneral, and
After a few words from Mr. lima.yr end Col. Sovotoar
the clause erm agreed to, as was also clause 2.
On clause 3, which establishes the general board of health,

being put
Lord LINCOLN observed that he had given notice of
amendments to this and the next clause, which he did not
propose to press on the present occasion lie would, how-
ever, suggest that as, under whatever arrangement,' they now
made, it would be necessary to have some central authority
to carry out the bill, it would be better to define what the
duties of that centrid authority should be before they decided
what that authority should he. (lleer.)
After a few words from Mr. NewnecraTai
Lord J. RUSSELL said (in reply to Lord Lincoln) that
it appeared to the government that there ought to be some
worsen stated in the act of parliament as being mainly en-
trusted with tho execution of the act, and that it would be
much better to name the first commissioner of Woods and
Forests than the Lord President of the Council, who, never-
thalami, might co-operate with the Commissioner of Woods
and Forests warn necessary. But thinking it rigitt that the
chief person responsible should be that commissioner, the
government proposed to leave the clause as it stood.
Mr. IiUME said that his experience of unpaid commis.
eioners induced him to suggest that there ought to be a paid
oommissioner with equal powers on the hoard, and who
might have a seat in that house to answer any quesiions put
to him on the subject of the act. lie had made inquiry,
end found that the first commissioner of the Woods and
Forests was a member of no lees than 18 commissions, acme of
which were alone sufficient to engines all his time.
Mr. MILES concurred la the propriety of having a paid
commissioner ; unpaid commissioners were too apt to become
negligent wish the lapse of time.
The ATTORNEY-OENERAL observed that if e com-
mittee should think a maid commissioner necessary, the sixth
and not the present clause was the fitting time for discussing

the question.
Atter a conversation, in which Mr. T. Eannros, Mr.
livirson, and others recommended,
Mr. URQU H ART moved, the postponement of the clines.
Lord tdORPRTH (with Lord J. RVKSELL and Sir G.
Gear) misted the motion, on the ground that it would be
exceedingly inconvenient to discuss the subsequent clauses,
until they knew how the central board was to be constituted.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir \V . JOLLIFFR was opposed altogether to a central
Ile did not see why inspectors appointed by the
government
would not answer the purpose.
After a short desultory conversation the committee

divided.
For the postponement of the clause
Against it ll5-100
Capt. HARRIS moved the insertion of words it the
clause to the effect that the First Commissioner of Woods
and Forests should superintend the execution of the act.
Lord MORPETH said that looking at the onerous duties
of the office he had the honour to hold, duties involved in
the execution of no less than eighteen different commissions,
he did nut feel himself in • condition to assent to the propo
sition of the hon. and gallant member. Ile must, therefore,
negative that amendment.
Mr. NEWDEGATE again urged upon the government
to leave to local management the edministration of local
affairs. Let them consider what had been the results of cen-
tralisation in a neighbouring country, where for years they
had centralised everything, and had ended in centralising
discontent.
Mr. P. IiOW ARD thought that if the bill was limited to
five years no such results would arise as the hon. member
(Mr. Newdepte) seemed to contemplate.
Mr. HENLEY said that when he remembered the various
and onerous duties which already devolved upon the chief
commissioner of Woods and Forests. he did not think it
would be possible for that minister satisfactorily to discharge
the functions which this art would cast upon him. He
therefore could not assent to the amendment, and should
vote against it if pressed to a division.
Lord 1). STUART inquired whether it was the intention
of the goveinment to introduce • bid fur the metropolitan
districts during the
.progress of the preeent meaeure, and
whether the execution of the metropolitim.bill would be en.
trusted to the board to be constituted under the bill now
wad, r consider ition ?
Le:l MORPETH was understood to say, in reply, that a
b:11 in relation to sewers was in preparation, but he could
not stet* when it would be ready to be introduced.
Atter a few words from Mr. H utmost,
Mr. HUN TZ expeased • hope that the amendment
would be withdrawn, for opposed as he (Mr. :Runts) was to
the bill, yet he was satisfied that, if passed, there ought to be
an efficient authority to tarry its provisions into effect. It
was admitted that the office of chief commissioner of Woods
and Forests was not a sinecure, and he therefore thought
" there ought to be a distinct and paid commissioner who
should he re, poneible for the working of the act.
Sir W. jOLLIFIE said he was prepared to support the
amendment, but be thought it would not be wise to press it.
Lord DUNCAN was of opinion that the execution of the
act ought to devolve upon one paid commissioner, and not
upon the chief commissioner of Woods and Forests, who was
already charged with sufficiently responsible duties.
Dr. 110 WRING also supported the opinion that even be-1
slam the chief commissioner of Woods and'Foreststhere ought
Mi he one paid commissioner appointed under this bill,
Col. SIBTIIOItP was not surprised the hon. member far
Bolton (Dr. Booming) supported paid commissioners, for the
hon. member hail himself received some 13,0001. or 11,000 f.
of the public money in a roving commission which had led
to no public benefit beyond the printing of a mar of
volumes of no use. Admitting that the labourer WAS worthy
of his hire, he thought no one would execute the duties of
hie high a thee better than the noble lord (Id ;meth).
Col. THOMPSON said he believed his constituents would
sooner pay a commissioner twice over than have one who
was a °need. (Hess.)
Capt. HARRIS consented to withdraw his amendment.
Lord I). Sl. UAItT said that no answer had ben given to
the question he had asked, whether the proposed board was
to have juri.dicti"n over the metropolis at large ?
Viscount M; lIIPETII said he could only give the answer
ha bad before given, that the bill contained nothing to
authorise the board so to act.
After a conversation,
Sir B. lIALL said the metropolitan members ought not
to be kept in the dark as to what was hanging over the
metropolis.
Mr. BUCK dwelt on the impolicy of excluding from the
bill the whole of Ireland and Scotland, the metropolis, and
the two universities.
Lord DUNCAN gave notice that, on the bringing up of
the report, he should take the sense of the house in favour of
having one paid commissioner, unless the bill were so modi-
fied in the interval.
Mr. J. STEWART considered that a great principle wee
involved in the question of having paid or unpaid commis.
sinners. If the latter had a paid secretary he would be the
real commissioner, the unpaid off cen being mere puppets.
(Hear.) This was a very objectionable state of things. It
would be much better to assimilate the board to that ap-
pointed under the Incleaure Act.
The ATTOR.NEY.GENERAL complained of the time
wasted in ri peat d discussions of the name point.
Capt. PECHELL wished for more precise information as
to ths powers and extent of jurisdiction of the proposed
commies:oilers. Ile hoped that local authority would he
allowed to operate with as little interference as possible
from the centesi board.
Mr. T. EGERTON said the general feeling appeared to be
in 'avour of one paid commissioner; and if this was agreed
to, onbringing up the report the clause which had now under-
gone no long a discussion would have to be struck out, and
thus all their labour would be lost. (Hear.) It would be
better to postpone the clause.
Mr. 11. BERKELEY wished to call the attention of the
committee to the fact that it was now half past 8 o'clock, and
nothing whatever had been done. (Laughter.) lie be-
lieved nothing would rouse the house from its torpor until,
some hot day, they discovered that the cholera bad broken
out. (Hear, hear.)
Alter a few words from Lord Di:Nese, Mr. Rice, and
Mr. 'l'. R0E117014,
Viscount MORPETH said the government was really
anxious to collect the feeling of the house, and act on it, se
far as was consistent with their duty. (Hear.) A good dial
of feeling had eenexpre•sed in favour of a paid commiesioner,
but us tee noble lord the member for Bath (Lord Dusan)
proposed to open the whole question on bringing up the
report, after it had been determined what the powers of the
commissioners should be, he hoped the committee would now
consent to pass these clause.. Every hon. member would
have an equal right of bringing forward any amendment as
to the ionstitution of tho central board.
Mr HENLEY tomolained of the want of information as
to the extent of the pow. ra of the central board.
Mr. URQUHART expressed his disappointment that the
noble lord (Lord Duncan) had not pressed his amendment
now in favorer of ODE paid commissioner.
Mr. HUME thought it would he impossible to carry out
the hill without a paid commissioner, but believed that one
would be enough. As to the metropolis, the government
must bring in a bill for it ; they could not do otherwise.
(Hear.) Objecting to any central Interference with local
authority, he was in favour of • check being applied
to abuse.
Lord DUNCAN moved an amendment in favour of one
paid commissioner, reserving the amount of his salary for
future consideration.
Mr. HUDSON was understood to second the amendment.
Lord J. RUSSELL ex, rested an opinion in favour of two