The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

.THE EXPRESS, 'FRIDAY ,14V11N1144.1s APRIL 30, 1847.

her pegrunyelyeaforeing it. To the priatipieseltbe. evert
• be stiff adberole but his fructigal *Variance had led
almeossiderably to modify his views as to details. In many
the particulars he felt assured that great inconvenience
gee arose would arise from a departure from the present
liassentary supervision, he thought it
" Par the budget a
„meths quits as easy for department to maces]
seb if they desired to do so, by giving more minute
• se when they humped votes together giving details in
seelks: fora.
As lion. Maxima here moved that the house be counted,
pot it proved that there were more than forty members
...est, On our reporter's readzitiaron to the gallery,
'Leal. RUSSELL was expressing his concurrence in the
e•ass of Sir J. Graham and Mr. Baring. He thought the
Hyde
of the report war right, but in detail it was, for
magnums, not desirable to adopt it.
De DOWRING spoke briefly in reply, and withdrew the
Mace THE NAVY.
Kr. HUNIE then rose to move for " an inquiry into the
esti of the nary since 1832, as regards the building, &Itera-
te" and repairs of her Majesty's ships." The hon. member
slid thou could be little doubt that the naval architecture of
ibj, °wintry during the last ten years had been retrograding.
It bed been perfectly lamentable to witness. year after year,
ths pertinacious resistance of each successive government of
this *sentry to the introduction of scientific improvement
kr or naval ship building. While every other maritime
rut of Europe had been making efforts to improve its
✓arer eervice. England had insisted upon stagnation and
captain Symonds. The institution of the school of naval
mthitecture had promised to be attended with the happiest
sip; but this school the right hon. baronet opposite (Sir J.
Graham 1. for some reason or other, bad abolished 15 years ago ;
sad, from that time to this, as he ( Mr. Hume) had predicted
at the time, the country had been subjected to the most
moostrous expenditure upon the very worst of bad ships,
kilt for the moat part under the utterly incompetent diem.
tier of Comic Symonds, a gentleman who might be a very
guises officer, but who was perfectly unfit for the duties of
Wryer of the Navy, from his entire want of scientific
kaowledge of navel architecture, a want which he himself
bad hilly admitted in 1831, and which he had never since
'applied. A committee which inquired into the subject in
Ms, reported, among other things, that the shipwrights in
the pubic yards were, almost to a man, destitute of that
seentifie skill and knowledge which could alone produce
good ships. In consequence of this report, the government
of 1811 established a school of naval architecture, to the
bist pupi:S of which it held out as prizi s various wellopaid
offices in the public dockyards. This school went on for a
few yens most pnenisingly, and sent out several pupils who
had "nee distinguished themselves in building almost the
*sly decent public ships that had hues constructed in
war time, and in publishing some admirable treatises on
the various branches of the subject, publications which
'routed a lurked contrast with the wretched attempts
dist had protected from the pen of Captain Symonds who: e
then was wen nigh as bad as his practice. These men.
trims men, however, had not attained those rewards which
thegevesnment of 1811 had held out to them, and the
school itself, es he had already observed, was done away
with by the right hon. barouet oppoeite, to the infinite injury
tithe public service in every possible way. He (Mr. Hume)
hod token the trouble to ascertain the exact number of
skips built since 1832, and the history, as nearly as possible,
each yew 1, and the result of his inquiries was that al-
most every one of them had been a failure, involving the
tonntry in enormous expenditure, not merely for their an-
aul construction, but fur the interminable alterations
which each had undergone, with little or no effect. (Hear,
boar.) In the last fifteen scan no less • cum than twenty-
two millions of the public money had been laid out
in wages contacted with ship building, and under
suck grossly incompetent direction, that a large
proportion of the expenditure had been sheer wa te,
as he would prove if a commission were granted.
The number of skips of the line constructed since
1832 was 20; of which nine were built from Captain Sy-
monda's designs; 10 from those of former surveyors, and 1
upon a French model. In the earns period, 26 new frigates
lad been launched. a considerable proportion of them de-
signed by Captain Symonds, and 7 corvettes, 4 of them laid
down by the same gentleman. With refer nee to these
veer* and to those now in course of cone ruction, he wan
prepared to show, on the fulh st and clearest seientihc and
practical evidence. that almost every yew 1 laid down by
Captain Symonds had turned out an utter failure in every
quality requisite for a ship of war, in stowage, in floatage,
sad for fighting. There was the P:que, for instance, which
had been so highly vaunted in particular quarters : Captain
Row pronounced it a had sea-boat, and a beet sea-boat it had
thoroughly manifested itself. Had it even been a good
vessel, the credit would have been none of Captain Symonclia,
for it turned out to have been built after the model of a
French ship, constructed 50 yews ago; both model and copy,
however, were failures. Then, again, there was the
Vernon ; why the Vernoy, in her first cruise with Admiral
Collier, lurched so heavily that she broke her head reale
short off, and displayed, in other respects., defects equally
grow. Why this sort of thing should be the rule with the
Royal Navy, he del not understand, for the vessels bult for
the East India Company, and for our merchant service in
drivate yards, were all, more order, well built, and did their
uty without having to be sent hack for alteration after
alteration. (Hear, bear.) And these alterations, let it be
borne in mind, involved the country in most henry expen-
diture, details of which he was fully prepared to lay before
any tribunal of inquiry. There was the Vanguard, fur
instance, a ship that Admiral Bouvcrie and Lord Mint,.
bad praised up as perfection. The alterations which it had
been found necessary to make, and twee again, in this
perfection of a vessel, had raised its total tut to 111,0001.,
the first cost of the hull having been 62.0001. There was
the Queen, too, another fine production of Captain Syrtionds'a
skill; this ship had been altered no fewer than three times,
the entire cost being 127.0001., of which but 93,0001. had
been expended on her first construction. (Hear, bear.)
There was the Prince Albert, in Portsmouth-yard ; she was
• 90-gun vend ; and when she put to sea she was found to
have an inefficient stern, and to he a discredit to any yard.
In Woolwich-yard there wan an SO-gun ship, the Boscawen.
She was made a 70-gun ship by order, thereby wasting a
great deal of timber. A part of her bow eras taken down
and altered in June, 1840, when her stern was recon-
structed a second time. This ship cost a great deal of money,
and was still but a wretched specimen of naval architecture.
All this was done by the surveyor, and permitted by the
Admiralty. There wan the packet Cygnet, at Portsmouth,
where she kid her topsides taken down, and wan rebuilt for a
10-gun brig, while she was only capable of carrying six.
Wea that setting a good example? There was also the
Heroine, which was laid down for carrying 10 guns, her
stem was altered, and she was fond capable of
carrying only six. Ile would challenge any man to go
into any private dockyard, and find such expensive and
unless changes as these. There were the Express
and the Swift, both built by contracts. As soon as they
were built they underwent some alterations. There was the
Star, built at Woolwich ; she was so bad, that when she put
to sea, she lot her mast, and all the men on deck were
washed overboard. In Chatham yard the Welverene had a
new bow put in. The Orpheus, after a great many altera-
tion:a, was taken to piece., and distributed amongst other
ships. That was the way in which the public money was
meat. The Goliah, an S;)-gun, while in frame, and having
her stern taken down, was obliged to have her timbers kept
secure with iron 'undo. If she had been properly constructed.
there would have been no necessity for those bands. All
that he stated went to show the great incepteny of the sur-
veyor, and delinquency on the part of the Admiralty, for
allowing such proceedings to take place. There were the
Mars and the Vanguard, which had also to undergo exten-
sive alterations. In Slieernear, the Serpent and Snake
underwent extensive repairs. The Pembroke, the Coiling-
wood. the Daphne. the Sealark, the Redwing, the St. George,
the Volcano, the Beelzebub, were obliged to be altered at
great expease' and were, nevertheless, failures. All this
went to prove the vacillation of the Admiralty, who made
orders for alterations on one day, which they countermanded
the neat. The Union, a 98 gun ship, was °virtu' to be
reduced to a 74. She was taken to pieces for the purpose,
and ultimately she was not rebuilt, but disposed of an /tome
other way. There were one or two fine vessels sacrificed,
all through the ales nee of a proper surveyor. The Scar.
'smooch, a 74. gun ship, was only a fow months at sea when
she sou condemned by Sir W. Symonds, and sold for 6,0001.,
and it was pron. d that she was worth 40.0001. (Hear,
bear.) The Thames, a hoe rue', was made a convict ship
after being condemned, and sent to Bermuda as such,
though she was an fine a vessel as could be. The Liebe,
quite a new ship, built by Sir R. Sydney, was now made a
receivingehip at Woolwich. The Redoubtable, also a good
ship, which was never at sea, was condemned, and broken up
at Chatham-yard. By these, sold other such prweeedimrs,
the navy had lost her hest ships, and had none hut-verde
which had undergone alterations. The efficiency of the navy
bed been thus vary much affected. They were constantly
making changes, without knowing by any experiments whe-
ther they were necessary ; and after they had been made,
they did not know whether they were beneficial. It was of
great importance to know whether the surveyor had done
his duty, or whether the Admiralty bad sees that he had
done his duty. One instruction of the Secretary of the Ad-
miralty to the surveyor was, that he should m ,ke a report
every year of the newels which he thought to be sound or
otherwise, and what alterations he considered it advisable to
make. Now he found, that since the year 1841, no such re-
port had been made. The late Secretary of the Admiralty
had given orders to atop the construction of six ships,
which were being built on the lines of the Albino,
which was found to be a failure. In that instance
they laid six vessels on the lines or a ship which was never
at ass, and whose quality they knew nothing about. The
steamboats built he Sir W. Symonds were for the mast part
failures. He would Meant. the Blazer, the Tartarus, the
Volcano, the Gorgon, and the Royal Yacht, which wet
altered again and again, and which he believed cart the
immense sum of 100,000/. He thought that in what he
brought before the house he made out a good cage for inquiry,
and he called upon them es speedily as possible to arrest the
heath of the destroyer, for be could be called nothing Ave.
He had ales a bat of several other vessels, midi' bad
been taken down and destroyed, but as he had and seingh
to prove that great irregularities had taken place, that great
sums had been expended, and that it was time to put a slop
to any Blither misapplication of the public. money, he won
oat trouble the house with going through it. He might be
told that the government appointed& committee of reference,
but this only showed that previous Board, of Admiralty
doubted the wisdom and authority of Sir Wiliam Symonds.
Re believed that committee condemned the line of ships
completely, although it connoted of shipwrights who were
IlVder himself. Os the ground then of expenditure, of edu-
di en, and for the public interest, he asked the house to
agree to his motion " for an inquiry into the state of the
easy sines 11132, as regarded the building, alterations, and
repairs of her Majentees ships." (Hear.)
Lord INGESTRE seconded the motion. The subject
was one that ought deeply to concern every representative
of this maritime country, and the thanks of the public were
des to the hon. =ember for the pains which he had taken in

eolloning the fects he had detailed to the home.
(Hear, hair.) Hs did not desire to throw blame ea the
Bard
of Admiralty or any particular individual, but if
fault was to be found it must be imputed to the board over
which the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) presided, for
haring appended a surveyor to the navy, without being cer-
tain of kiszitdeily to performs the duties of that office.
Indeed be the utile of that aim es too much fur
any one man The hon. member for Menem* had when
the exp. uses of particular vessels. He (Lord Ingest's') would
elate what it was in the total. In 180. the total can for
constructing sailing vends was 1,356,0001. ; for steamers
the eclat was the tame. A great many alterations in the
vessels had been made which would not be necessary if they
were constructed at first on sound principles. lie had re-
ceived a letter on this subject from Capt. R. Burton, which
stated that the Albion was originally cimetructed to curry
68-pounders, but she sank so much, that it was found nee. s-
eery to substitute 32apounden, and even with the latter she
plied 45 degrees ; and the chances were that, if she had
been tried in the winter in the Bay of Biscay,she would have
rolled completely over. This was owing to the weights
above being so heavy, while the water, stores, and provisions,
below the centre of gravity, were decreasede by consumption.
That atheement involved the whole question. The whole
fault in the construction of these ships was the want of
stability below the centre of gravity, to balance the super-
structure above them. This want made them top-heavy.
(Hear.) With respect to the trials that had been made of
the vessels built by the surveyor of the navy and others, he
would state that the Castor best the Pique live
times, the Inconstant beat the Pique tan firma
whereas the Pique heat the Inconstant only twice.
'On another occasion the inconstant beat the Pique
eight times. Sir Gordon Bremer, in his report. said
that no further trial was necessary, mud yet the Pique was a
model &hip. In like manner the Baron beat the Vernon
thirteen times; the Vernon the B iron only three times. The
E.piegle beat the Flying Fish in eleven trials; the Flying
Fish the lispiegle only six. The Raleigh again beat tit-
Constance, the improved Vernon, which was to be the
paragon of the seas. The Eurydice beat the Spartan, the
Thetis the Superb, and he believed the Terrible also beat
the Retribution. There was a most discreditable system
practised of getting rid of ships built by rival contractors.
—(hear, hau)—stud selling them for lees than they were
worth. He concurred with the hoe. member for Montrose as to
the suicidal policy of destroying their School of Naval Archi-
tecture. Besides, it was an act of great injustice. lie had no
party feeling on the subject of the motion, but he had • great
desire to see the navy of England placed on an equal, it not
a superior, footing to that of any other navy in the world, •
and so long as they continued to proceed on the present us.
satisfactory plan would they have ships which would be
exposed to the risk of defeat in • future war. He hoped
the government would be induced to grant the inquiry,
and also to re-establish a school to further the object. lie
also trusted that the government would see the propriety of
making public the report of the gentlemen who built the
Tnetis, at Chatham, and that of the Committee on
Shipwrecks.
The question having been put,
Mr. WARD said it was not his intention to follow his
hon friend through that hill of indictment which he had pre-
ferred, not against the present government merely, but against
every government which had had anything to do with the
naval administration of affairs is this country during the
last fifteen years. (Hear, hear.) lie would stite at once,
however, that having at heart, no less than the hon. gen-
tleman and the noble lord, the efficiency of the English
navy, her Majesty's government did not see how
that efficiency could be promoted, or any good
end attained by seceding to the motion. (Hear, hear.) No
doubt errors had been committed—(hear, hear, from Sir C.
Napier) ;--no doubt money had been erimapent • no doubt
there had been a want of proper preesulimanot under any one
government in particular, but under all governments. (Hear,
hear.) The first paragraph of the instructions given to the
committee of reference stared that it was desirable to adopt
etch plans only as, after due examination, would ensure the
greatest pomiblo degree of efficiency. He admitted the
utility and the necessity of the check which had been so im-
pea ; but then, he said, that the moment when that check
was established was not the proper moment for moving for a
committee of inquiry iuto past errors. (Hear, hear.)
The committee of reference was composed of the
very men whose loss the hone table member deplored, being
presided over by his noble friend, Lord John Hay,
one of the most scientific men, as well as one of the most
pretreat sailors and othcers in the naval service. Dascussions
of thirna'ure, whether aU the compleints were just or not,
did iu?lnite good, by making men cautious and preventing a
recurrence of mistakes ; but as to devising at once, by means
of any body of men, a perfect model for the future construc-
tion of ships, he was a total disbeliever in any such project.
(Hear, hear.) In the construction of • ship of war, so various
were the qualifications required to be united, that under any
circumstances it must he extremely difficult to obtain a per.
fect model. The Thetis had been largely and justly praised
that evening; but the gentleman by whom that vessel
was constructed, had intimated an opinion that she was
sot perfection ; and his hon. and gallant friend (Sir C.
Napier) admitted that considerable improvements might be
made also in the Salon. How were the merits of ships to
be determined except by referring to practical men ? His
hon. friend had himself shown how much authorities differed
on the subject. Ile held i,t his hand a letter from Sir Wm.
Parker, speaking of the Albioa and the Queen. As regarded
the Albion, Sir William Parker said that although she did
not sail so fast as true Venguard, the Belton', or the Ceno-
pue, yet the manner in which she stood up under her can-
vas was quite astonishing. With respect to the
Queen, be said that her sailing was geaerally supe-
rior to that of the Albion, and that he consi-
dered her by far the finest ship of her clue, and
that in • general chase she would be found to rank
among the best. He found discrepancies existing on all
hands, in fact, which showed that they had not yet arrived
at anything like a naval standard ; and he only wished that
those who so much admired the naval school of architecture,
would take a lesson from the moderate men connected with
it. (Hear. hear.) He held in his hand an extract from a
report whi• h he had been milked to present. Did Messrs. Iteed
and Chaplin sty that they were able to present to the world
• perfect model ? Certainly not; what they said was, that
there were no insuperable obstacles to progressive improve-
ment, and that en inductive reasoning, based on mathe-
matical investigation, might be applied with great advantage
to naval architecture. He could not help remarking upon the
looseness of the evidence which his hon. Iris ad bad adduced.
Had not the house thought that there were two sides to the
question, the hon. member would not have had so small a
number as about twenty listeners whilst delivering his ad-
dress. Unless there had been two rival parties connected
with ship-building, such inettention could not have been
manifested. (Laughter.) As to the re-establishment of the
College of Naval Architecture, that was a question of the
utmost difficulty. Could anything be more fatal to
the hopes of the large muse, of men concerned,
than to see the prospect of naval promotion
checked and clogged by the perpetual interposition
of a number of young officers? (Hear, hear.) By the
comae they were pursuing the government hoped to get rid
of all that gross ignorance which had characterised the ap-
prentices in the dockyards. Under the present regulations
no boy was admitted who could not read and write, and who
hail not received the elements of a decent education. His
hon. friend just before he left office had had the pleasure of
attaching his name to • circular which made it necessary
that there should be two years attendance at the dockyard-
school, and that the education of the youths should
be completed at the public expense in an establishment
formed for the -pu-pose at Portsmouth. By such
means they hoped to secure a much better educated class of
officere. Allusion had been made to Sir William Symonds.
He did not mean to say that Sir William was a faultless man,
but he thought that he was at present an under-rated M.lll.
At first, too great expectations were ra,sed,:and now justice
was not done. (Hear, hear.) Certain it wee, that at the
outset Sir William Symonds had rendered most eminent
service. He was now most unfortunately situated, in having
an influential party arrayed against him. Enough had
bade d oacurred to induce cautioa in the laying down
of six skips like the Albion. (Hear, hear.) Still
after such letters as that of Sir W. Parker, he
must say that it was unjust to carp at Sir William
Symonds, and to say, at a time when we had as fine •
fleet as ever floated, that our ships were not fit to face an
enemy. However these ships might be decried, he would
ask, was there an officer present who would declare that any
one of them could not face any French three-decker which
might be brought against it? (Heat. hear.) In conclusion
he would state, that no plans or drawings would be selected
by the present Board of Admiralty, without having been
referred to the committee of selection, and etportni upon,
but he could not make the eonoession which would be in-
volved in his acceding to the motion. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that there could be no doubt
that this was a fitting eubject for the consideration of
parliament. (Hear, bear.) We boasted in this country
the best seamen of the world ; and it was only right
and just that we should provide for those seamen the
strongest, best, and swiftest ships-of-war that skill and
science could enable us to build. (Hear' hear.) It was
upon that principle that he had always acted when et the
heal of the maritime affairs of this country; and it was
from a consideration of that principle that he had,
when in office, appointed Sir William Symonds to the
surveyorahip of the navy, an appointment of which he
did not hesitate for one moment to admit his responsibility.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member throughout the present dis-
cussion had assumed that Sir W. Symonds was wholly
destitute of science. His naval skill no one doubted ;
every gallant member in the house would, he was sure,
frankly acknowledge it. But the fact was, that Sir W.
Symonds' acquaintance with the art of ship-building won
very considerable ; it was a subject he had studied scientifi-
cally as well as pnicticelly, and that acquaintance,
combined with his navel experience, his rneral knowledge,
his great capacity', and his admitted ability, rendered him
a most fit officer for the post which he had been appointed to
fill. In every branch of this profession the most angry—
not to say the most sicions—feeling had been displayed upon
this matter, and Captain Symonde, lino doubt, had
to encounter, is consequence, • most determined
and violent hostility. But before he spoke further
of Captain Symonds, let him advert to a charge
which had been brought against him by the hon. member,
of having taken steps, in concert with the Board of Admi-
ralty, of which he w is the head, to abolish the eo.cailed
School of Naval Architecture. The School of Naval Archi-
tecture was one from which, before he assumed office, great
benefits had been xpected, but which had brought forth
very little fruit. The hon, member spoke of the " prizes"
open to the students of the School cf Naval Architecture,
and had charged him with aboashiog those prizes and
thereby ruining the prospects of the school. Certainly,
when lie took office he found it desirable and necessary to
abolish • large number of lucrative offices in dockyards and
elsewhere, bi cause thev were unnecessary and expensive;
but he denied that the abolition of those places was incon-
sistent with the maintenance of good faith towards those who

had ontawithe saga or wee ay iatorhreacia with the
prospect asset M Haw. No ate of his, be emesobas.
timely mould sa, bad been tainted with Wade*
to any indlvide. As to " prime" far atabonts
at the &gloat of Naval Architectore, what wore
the facts Ho held in his band a list of dime holding
some of the best ad luta lucrative apaisitatents is the
dockyards; and what did he led 1 Thelettatv ship=
at Portamouth was a student of 'the Saud if Naval
tutor', and so was the nester shipirrt at Tombeau end
the master shipwright at Chathies. The had of the la-
chiaery depot at Woolwich wee a student of the same
school; aad if he_looked to other offices, he found them
filled by parties who had equally received their education in
the school. So far from any injustice, therefore, hiving.
been done to these students, they had received more than
ample justice at the hands of the Admiralty. (Hear, bear.)
Hut to return t • Sir W. Symonds. 'the boo. memher's first
charge wee, that improvement of constriction had not
been progressive of late years in England—in fact, that
foreign countries had advanced considerably beyond us.
Let them examine hew this fact stood. lie believed he
was justified in saying, that, at the end of the French war,
the best ships in the English navy were ship. which we bari
captured trots the French, or which we had built upon the
French lines. ('' Hear, hear," from Sir C Napier.) or all
these ships, there wu none, perhaps, more distinguished than
the Canopus. She wee universally considered the best ves-
sel of her class in our navy. (Hear, bear.) Now, in
several recent trials, the Canopus had been sent
to sea with ships of Sir William Symonds's construction ;
and, unless he was very much misinformed, the
Canopus which, at the end ut the war, was so superior to
any ship built even in our own dockyards upon French
linos, proved herself vastly inf nor to those of the more
recent constructions. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member

had said that some years baCk, be '(Sit J. Owallaala) bd
rested his opinion on Sir William Symonds, sad
consented to stake his reputation upon the nemess of
the Vernon. (Hear.) But what were the opinioas easel-
cal men respecting toe Vernon. He held in his hand the.
report of Captain Sir Francis Collier, whom he had ap-
pointed to this ship on her trial cruise, by the ads ice of Sir
Thomas Hardy, and than whom a better sailor never existed.
(Hear.) What did Sir Francis Collier aster the Vernon?
On she 17th September, 1832, he wrote thus, "I have to
report very favourably of the Vernon. She stores better thin
I expected. She stands up to her sails, and is the easiest
ship I ever sailed in, in a heavy head sea. (Hear, hear.)
She pitches heavy but easily. She rolls eseily. She is the
handiest ship I was ever in. Take her for all in all. I think
her perfection." (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") But
other shim of Sir W. Symonds had been named. The
charges against the Queen had been disposed of by the
Secretary to the Admiralty. The Vanguard was another
of his ships. Of that revel the late Sir C. Paget
wrote, " Her superiority in all points of railing greedy die-
tinguiehes her. I am in admiration with hes." Sir It.
Stopford had this vessel under his command in that fleet in
which the gallant officer below him (Sir C. Napier) so highly
distinguishes) himself, and he (Sir .1. Graham) wm informed
(the gallant almtral could correct him if he was wrong)
that Sir R. Stopford declared that such was his opinion of the
power of the anguard, that he deemed it unnecessary to
have a ship to windward of the squadron, because the Van
guard could be sent to windward at any time. (Hear, hear.)
The Collingwood, which was another of Sir W. Symonds's
vessels, and which Mad been an the South American station,
under the command of Sir George Seymour, had woo equal
applause from that officer. (Hear, hear.) And here he
would beg the house to bear in mind, that this Sir
William Symonds, who was thus attacked, bad, since
1832, the year of his appointment, had to serve
under five or six different Boards of Admiralty,
composed of men of different polities', and different views
upon nautical matters, all of whom hod thought him not
unworthy of their milldam*, and all of whom were of
consequence_ collectively and individually, sharers of his
(Sir James Graham's) responsibility as to Capt. Symonds's
appointment. (Hear, hear.) When, therefore, they talked
of rumours to this officer's disadvantage—of having heard
ibis from one quarter and that from another —let him ask, did
not the opinions of five or six different Boards of Admiralty
and of a large number of the best officers. in the service
who had tried and reported upon the merit; of his ship.,
present a mass of evidence which ought at once to check the
aspersions sought to be cast upon has character? (Hear.)
Ile (Sir J. Graham) might tell the house—that which he had
often told Sir W. Symonds himself—that he considered it the
misfortune of every welleonceived theory, that its designer
clung to it with pertinacity, instead of applying his mind
to the correction of the defects which others might
discover in his system. (Herr, hear.) Over and over
ao,ain be bad entreated Sir W. Symonds to attend
respectfully to the representation' which were made
to him—to consider carefully such alterations as might
be pointed out to him—with • view to apply correc-
tion to acknowledged defects in a system, in the
theory of which he was persuaded there was much
wisdom and excellence, and which had this great and import-
ant consideration to recommend it, that it was a theory
adopted in its mein principles by all who had followed in
the name profession. (Hear, hear, and a cry of "No.")
Yes ! There could be no doubt that it wee so. The defect
in our ships of war when Sir W. Symonds commenced his
labours' was insufficiency of beam, and :rant of stability.
Sit W. Symonds, admittedly, had remedied these defects,
and he gave hie ships • power of carrying sail which no
vessels had ever possessed before. To obtain these ad•
vantages, Captain Symonds had no doubt sacrificed
eciractaing; but it was his (Sir J. Graham's) belief,
that experience would correct all the existing defects,
end that the system itself would ultimately be proved to be
the best that could be adopted. (Cheers.) One other point
that the hon. member had adverted to was worthy some at-
tention. He had referred to the question of cost attending
alterations. For his own part be (:sir J. Graham) could not
say that he thought it was throwing away money to try, in
time of peace, the relative advantages of various modes
of naval architecture. And when it was said that science
witienst naval skill was the power beet capable of making a
perfect ship of war, eases might be cited to prove strongly the
converse of the proposition. What ship had that evening
been mentioned as the best in the service ? The Inconstant.
Who built the Inconstant ? A gallant admiral—an admira-
ble naval officer—a man of science to a certain extent, cer-
tainly, but or.e who had devoted his early life to his profes-
sion, and who only took up the art of construction as an
amusement. (Hear, bear.) The Eurydice had, also, been
cited. The Eurydice was built by Admiral Elliot, an officer
with whom he had ha I the pleasure of sitting at the Admi-
ralty, but who, certainly, he had never heard classed as an
eminently scientific m in. But what ship had required
the greatest outlsy before she was made available? The
Rodney, • ship to which the boo. member had referred.
No less than 141,0001. had been spent to correct defects in
that one vessel. And by whom was the Rodney built?
Not by • naval officer—not by a practical man; but by a
scientific surveyor, for she was built upon the lines of the hde
Sir It. Seppings. (Cheers.) But, as he was addressing himself
to the present, let himtake occasion to remark that boweverim-
portant might be the errors of the past, they were nothing
to be compared in importance with the Dressing necessity
of adopting a wise course for the future. (Hear, hear.)
Although as a temporary expedient he should not object
to a committee of reference, vet he begged the Admiralty
to take care lest, under that term, they created a
new navy board. It was his opinion that one Board
of Admiralty, and one alone, should exist. It was
required by public opinion that at the Board of Admiralty
there should sit tome of the ablest officers of the profession.
That board, as no A' constituted, vets, in his opinion, most
happily composed. It was a mixed board of officers and
l civilians. It was to these men at peen nt that
the decision with regard to the lines of every ship to be built
was necessarily submitted, and he should think it a rest
misfortune if any board of construction should come an to
supersede the authority now exercised by the board of Admi-
ralty itadf. Survey ors of the navy should only be eyes to
the board of Admiralty ; and if any thing could
be said against the present surveyor, it was that he had
perhaps devoted himself somewhat too much to his own
plans, to the exclusion of that supervision which be ought to
have exercised, and that consideration which he might have
given to the plans of ethers. (Hear, hear.) But all he
would say to the board of Admiralty was, if Sir William
Symonds does not enjoy your confidence, dismiss him ; but
if you believe, with me, that for the lest thirteen
years he has laboured to work out a theory which is sour d
and successful that be has been able, upright,
honest and indefatigable—only too zealous in the cause of
the public—only too neglectful of all interest attaching to
himself—then do not sacrifice him to an unjust clamour,
raised by the hest of prejudice, and calculated, in injuring
him, to prejudice the navel superiority and power of the
country. ( Loud cheers.)
Capt. BERKELEY said the board of reference could
only be called together when something new was proposed.
The honourable and gallant officer vindicated the character
of the Teasels constructed by Sir W. Sylvanite..
Sir C. NAPIER considered, that in his wholesale condem-
nation of Sir W. Symoads his hon. friend the member for
Montrose exceeded the exact measure of that censure to
which many of that efficer'sconstructions were liable. He did
not at all concur in the eulogy which the captain of the Van-
guard had forwarded home of that vessel. The great defect
of Sir William Snends' vessels wee, that they would not
fight well in rough weather. Let a stiff head-wind get up,
and his ships almost all begin to pitch, and lost
their sailing. Sir Hyde Parker bail himself told
him that the Albion rolled so heavily that he
at one time thought she would lose her masts, shipping
so much water, that while all the other vessels of the aqua-
dron had their ports open, she was obliged to clot* all her
ports and run her guns in. As to the outrageous expendi-
ture upon public ships, and their bad construction, these had
been subjects of complaint long before Sir W. Symonds wee
surveyor. He controverted the opinion in favour of Capt.
Symends'a groat steam frigates, which so .ar from
being perfect vessels, would not, ander any pro-
fenional difficulties whatever, lee able to contend
with the enemy. He considered the committee of
reference as wove than useless. He was of opinion
that the surveyor of the navy should not be a man under the
influence of professional jealousy as • builder, bat
should rather be almost entirely engaged is carrying,
out the views of the Admiralty'; provided, indeed,
that the present system of the Amiralty were wholly
changed, for Nearctic any system could be wore.
The Admiralty wanted to try the screw the other day, and
what they did was to bore four ships of war for the purpose ,
of lid ting them screws in before they tried one of them. It
was high time to put an end to this eatmeagance. He con-
cluded by supporting the motion of the hon. member for
Montrose.
Mr. CORRY, amidst loud cries for Mr. Brotherten and
" Adjourn," said that the measures adoplene by the Bard of
Admiralty were calculated to arrive at Whit was looked far
by the hon. member. It was the opinion of the Board when
he belonged to it, that Sir William Symonds had been of
great service to the navy ; but at the same time it was
suppeeed that his system was not entirely perfect. (Hear.
Me. HUME, in reply, mid that sufficient admissions were

meele.adi
as supporters of the Admiralty to junify ahe in-
quiry he sessile hr. Not one boa. member answered
me that it was thepractice of surveyors for some
years to di satleing has pull to pieces and reconstruct ships
at • vast swam
The, lieuee thee dielded—For the motion— 13
Against it. out 66-63
If °him lost.
~.; :;IM home adjostmed. at a quarter pert one o'clook.

~;,:*#p eporto.

_ _ 2 MAIL&

Maim/la kr New Bow& Wake, Van Diemen's Land, and New
Zealand will be made up is theeeeeing of the Loth April
Ile Meet Mania walk Inaleging them for Oleibeil, Hoodaree, and
the Havana/. will be made op am do morning of the lit May.
The ISPTINi walls far Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, the lonian libinda,
Wm, Aden, Clayton, Melia, Hang-Kong, and China, Ws Southampton,
mill be made 'mouths morning ofthe Srd Mar.
The math for genii!, North Amerika, Beniitida, end the United
*Mai, will be made up an the evening of the Ord May.
The mails for the Smile, the Saver Plate, Monte Video, Pernam-
buco, Bahia, blatheira, and Borne Ayres, will he made ap on the
evening ores 4th May.
the mall, for Vigo, Oporto, Whoa, Madeira, Cad* and Gibraltar,
will be mode no on the morning of the 7th May.
The overland cloned mails, Ms Marseilles, to the Medlternsean,
enot. Aden, Carlon, India, ling Nang, he., will he made up on the
wing of the 7th May.

I2IGU WATFAI AT LONDON-BRIDGE
Tia DA.—MoraUm 0 OM. pot 2; Afternoon. IS 01.. put 2.
Todttlonow—hlornhnr, 23 min. post 2 ; Afternoon, 49 tan. pot 2.

.• LONDON, FRIDAY, APRIL 30.
TUERe is no subject demanding more grave and
immediate attention than the treatment of juvenile
offenders. For this class our present prisons are
either schools of crime, or tolerably comfortable
homes. The effect of either impression is equally
mischievous. In the' one case they leave the gaol
with lessons which ensure their speedy return to it ;
in the other they go out with a determination by some
petty offence to regain that shelter, food, and instruc-
tion, which they can find only within the prison
walls. In both ways their course of life finds them
and leaves them gaol-birds ; one class with the in-
stinct of prey more developed than the other, but both
almost equally unfitted for the mw material of useful citi-
zenship. We have every sympathy with the objects of
such reformers as Sir J. PAKINGTON, but we should
be sorry to see his measure carried. Of this, indeed,
there is little prospect. The second reading was con-
ceded rather from that unaccountable whimsicality
which sometimes sets the house protesting its objections
to a bill in the same breath with which they
vote for any but a third reading. We don't
like the bantling, but we won't burke it yet. We
will allow the fond parent to flatter himself with the
hope of rearing it—we will let it through the croup
of a first reading, the hooping-cough of a second, and
carry it off in the tits of a third.
It appears to us a kinder course to kill the unlucky
I nursling outright, more particularly when it comes
into. the world as the representative of what should
be a very lusty family, the measures of a sounder
criminal discipline for juvenile offenders.
All grave legislation should be compendious, sys-
tematic, and complete. It should embody& principle,
and` ot strive to provide for particulars. It should
attack the keep and stronghold of its selected wrong,
not fritter away its strength upon the outlying forts.
At all events, its attack on these should be part of a
combined movement, the ultimate aim of which is
the citadel. Sir J. PAXINGTON'S bill, excellent
in intention, is one of these isolated attacks
upon a single point only of a system every
point of which should be assailed at once, if
anything effectual is to be done. The measure pro-
poses to meet only one evil, and that by no means the
greatest evil in our present mode of dealing with
young thieves. And it is very doubtful whether, in
removing one mischief, it does not open the dour to a
greater evil of a different kind.
The bill proposes that persons below fifteen, guilty
of simple larceny, obtaining money by false pre.
tencre, cheating, and receiving property where the
doing so is a felony or indictable misdemeanour, or
attempting any of these offences (where the value of
I the subject matter of the offence does not exceed forty
shillings), shall be summarily convicted by two magi-
strates, who shall also have the discretionary power
of dismissing the case, of admitting to bail, of im-
posing the additional punishment or whipping, and
discharging on a first conviction. If the justices
think the offence too trifling to merit punishment,
they may dismiss the case at once.
Now all these powers may be very wholesome ones
properly exercised; but, in proportion as they are
valuable when rightly and cautiously used, they are
dangerous in inexperienced or jaali hands. The
judges might probably exercise any of them with
safety and advantage to the accused and the public.
But this act gives these great and novel powers to
justices of the peace. With due respect for the
" great lls paid," we very much doubt if they exercise
the powers at present intrusted to them so well as to
jsetify an extension of them. Probably counsel
attending quarter sessions, in cases where there does
not happen to be a legally educated chairman (or a
gentlemen who has taken settlement for his hobby-
horse, and so acquired, perforce, a legal turn of mind),
would hardly advise that the average bench should be
trusted with more authority, and, above all, authority
unchecked by the utmost publicity, than it wields at
present. Sir J. Paeiscvos's measure might work
tolerably well even in the bands of metropolitan
magistrates, who have all received the training of the
bar. But it gives too great latitude to justices of the
reglas justices of the peace are. Besides, why
iesellre only for the untried ? Comparatively few of
the buys who are brought up for such thefts, as lads
ander fifteen live by, are innocent. If they have not
the weight of this particular handkerchief, or that
especial till upon their consciences, they have hooked
handkerchiefs and emptied tills often enough not to
be much surprised when the policeman lays hands on
them. The corruption of the prison works as fatally
in the sentence which follows conviction, as in the
period which intervenes before trial. Make our
lrisons what they ought to be, and there will no
onger bo any ground for legislating (as Sir J.
PAKINOTON is doing) for the untried, with a view to '
the few cases in which the culprit will escape pollu-
tion by not being committed to gaol before conviction.
A comprehensive measure of prison discipline, as it
concerns the young, would secure all the possible good
of this bill, would do a great deal that this bill does
not contemplate, and would secure both these results,
without vesting additional powers in a class who have
not always shown that they arc fit to exercise with
propriety those which they already possess.

Mm' the beginning of the present year a series
of articles appeared in the AUgemeine Zriluny on the
course that ought to be pursued by the Zollverein at
the expiration of the treaty which the British govern-
ment concluded in 1841 with Prussia and other mem-
bers of that iiody. The drift of these articles, and
of a host of paragraphs which have since appeared: in
the oolamns of the same journal, os if to follow. up
the blow, is, to represent the policy of England to-
wards Germany as grasping and uufriendly, with a
view to uphold a system of commercial hostility to-
wards this country.
A simple statement of what has been done in
England, since the formation of the Zollverein in
183:1, to relax our navigation laws, and reduce our
tariff in favour of Germany, will suffice to prove that
the policy of our country has been marked by great
liberality, and a desire to extend our commercial rela-
tions with the states of the Customs Union. .

Under the treaty of 1841, the states of the Zollverein
are entitled to clear from the ports of the Danube,
from the Prussian ports on the Baltic, and from every
port between the mouths of the Elbe and the Meuse
(inclusive), as if they were their own national ports.
This concession is, or might with a proper exertion
of skill and enterprise, be made most important to
these states. Bavaria, Wurtemberg, Saxony, and
many other states which have no seaports, may
build ships on the banks of the Danube, the
Rhine, and the Elbe, float them by artifi-
cial means to the parta of these rivers capable of
carrying sea-borne vessels, and use as Zollverein ports
Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Dordrecht, the ports of the
Zuyder Zee. Oldenburgh, Hanover and Hamburg, and
the porb of the Danube. From these they may pro-
med with their cargoes to every port in the United
Kingdom, in British North America, in the West
Indies, in South America, in Africa, in Ceylon, in all
the Australian colonies, and to British India, upon the
same footing as the ships of the most favoured foreign
nation. The reciprocity guarante.d to British ships
in ports of the Zollverein, is, on the other hand, of
little moment to this country. Except Prussia on
the Baltic, no state of the Zollverein has any port in
which British ships can derive the least advantage
under the treaty of 1841. Even the Prussian Baltic

ports are unimportant British shipa proceed'
to them, carrying little freight ; the value
of all our exports in Prussian and British
ships to Prussian ports is not above one-
seventh of the value of what we send to
Dutch and German ports not belonging to the Zoll-
verein. The value of British produce and manu-
factures exported to Prussia in 1814 was 505,3841 ;
in 1845 it was 577,999/. The value exported to other
German ports wa56,151,5281. in 1844, and 6,517,7961.
in 1845. The value exported to Holland was
3,131,9701. in 1844, and 3,439,035/. in 1845.
Again, England has, since the formation of the Zoll-
verein in 1833, either reduced the duty, or admitted
free of duty every article, raw or manufactured, which
Germany produces; while during the same period the
duties on several important articles of British produce
and manufacture have been greatly augmented in the
tariff of the Zollverein. Since 1833 the import duty
has been entirely taken off twenty-six articles of Ger-
man produce, or manufacture. German cottons,
coloured and plain, on which 10 per cent. used to be
paid, are now admitted into this country free; flax
and tow, wool, seeds, hides, and skins, are admitted
duty free; the duty on cereals and pulse, formerly
prohibitory, now ranges from 10s. to 4s. per quarter,
and will be entirely removed after February, 1819 ;
the duties on glass have been reduced from 30 and 85
per cent to about 2 per cent.; on lath-wood and oak
plank from 61. 16,. per cubic load, toll. 4s. and 1/. re-
spectively. On the other hand, the Zollverein duties i
on our textile fabrics have been raised from 30 to 50
dollars per cwt. ; on raw linens from 2 to 4 ; on
finished linens from 11 to 20; on tapes, &c., from
22 to 30.

Thtsc facts show that the commercial policy of this
eountry to Germany has not been of the character
attributed to it by the writers in the Allyemeine
; and that the renewal of the treaty of 1841
is to us, as far as the trade and navigation of British
ships are concerned, of the least possible value, while
its termination would annul all the concen.4ons and
advantages granted in it to the Zollverein.

The .411gemeine Zeitung is published in a country
where the censorship of the rress is exercised with
great strictness ; no article can appear in it which
does not meet with the approbation of the confederated
governments of Germany. The .111yemeine Zcitung
exercises considerable influence on public opinion
throughout Germany. We are therefore warranted
in regarding the articles which have from time to time
appeared in it hostile to the renewal of the treaty of
1811, as having been prompted, or at leant connived
at, by some of Ike more powerful German governments,
with a view to awaken throughout Germany a blind
prejudice and enmity against England, as an indirect
means of injuring the cause of free trade.

The facts to which we have directed attention will
serve to disabuse the reading and thinking part of
the German population of such groundless opinions.
The policy of England is to accelerate the period of
entire free trade among all nations, as far as is com-
patible with the necessity of raising a revenue for the
purposes of government. England's reason for
adopting this policy is the thorough conviction of its
mien and the great majority of its citizens that such
untrammelled commerce is conducive to the prospe-
rity of all nations, its own included. The pledge
given by England that its profession of this convic-
tion is sincere—that this economical faith is its rule
of action—is its readiness to meet all countries more
than half way in the abolition of financial and other
restrictions upon trade. This guarantee, as shown
shove, it has amply extended to the states of the
Zollvcrein.

The Paris journals of Wednesday are most
destitute of interest. The postscript to our corre-
spondent's letter of Testerday, in reference to the re-
ported grant of the liberty of the press in Tuscany, is
corroborated by L' Union 3 fonarchique and other
journals, but no positive or official accounts of it had
been received. - -

The debate on the secret service funds was closed
on Tuesday afternoon; the usual grant being made.
We announce with regret the death, on Tuesday
evening, of Lord Cowley, late amba-sador from
England at the Court of the Tuileries. His lord-
ship had been some time ill.
The project of law upon the Greek loan, with which
the chamber was occupied or. Wednesday, was voted
almost without discussion, the object being to mani-
fest by this proceeding the prevalence of a reeling in
favour of Greece. M. St. Marc Girardin declared
that it was on this score that he desired the vote of
the chamber to be taken, and M. Guizot made a
similar declaration, adding that the fixed determina-
tion of the government was to follow the same line of
policy in Greece.

Our Madrid correspondence of the 23rd inst. is
without interest One of the journals says that a
disturbance having been apprehended in the capital
on the evening of the .22nd, precautions were taken
against it by the authorities, but no cause is assigned
or particulars given. The Queen continued to
appear daily in public, accompanied by the sister and
father of the King, but, except on the single occa-
sion formerly mentioned in our correspondence, the
King has never appeared with her. General de la
Concha had not yet left the capital to take command
of the army of intervention. He was still detained
by family affairs. The Phare, a new Madrid journal,
says that the government intend to give the King-
Consort a suitable separate dotation for his household.
The Queen had appointed six senators from the liberal
party. El Herald° states that reports have been
received from various parts of the provinces highly
favourable to the approaching harvest.