The Express.
London, England, 1847-05-01 00:00:00

the cosatry. (Rear, bear.) It was aebber Erre nee ler
than seareersiiks espied al ha arretty Into
fixed capital, AYE Erna Ishii ON floating
capital, if weekli Wa within
• limited period, and a re-
dheads period In that wide b trod in
leibra any in-
terest. And aldregk at lbe geeent ar meat, they wencalr
sufhetag wader de reerit el rth
for ist ariseedur rem yea hey dean eat of
their eireldeeries het he ariera authorised to be en-
prided la she b leer wadding's' Into °passim at a future
pried, cell fesehrw to aeheasse the .geearsiary dfillealtiee
✓ides !am the Wear et a hares ogled Into •
fixed marl, hr wkikh there was NO iiIIIMASIM re-
turn. (Hear, hear.) They stood wry Birk to the
situation of a hawker, who, having a large ca-
pital at kis disposal, looked it up is the weber of rover-
sions, instead of employing it in the ordinary course of trade.
(Hoar, him.) The application of this unduly large sum to
undertakings of this nature, though it diffused great pros-
perity amongst the different climes employed upon them,
drew also from the manufacture of exportable commodities
the sum which might otherwise be employed in that dine-
lion ; and the ample means of purchasing food given to
numbers of persons had tended to increase the necessity for
importing provisions, and thus to augment the difficulty as
regarded /bullion. There was therefore, be thought, the
greatest reason for caution lest they should be led to infringe
on the balances in the Exchequer. Another cause of finan-
cial emberranment was the deficiency in the cotton crop.
(Hear, hoer.) An increase had been made in the price re-
quired to be paid for this article, which was hardly less ne-
cessary than articles of food. All these co:usiderations induced
him to impress on the house the importance of exorcising
caution in the charges which they imposed on the revenue
of the country. They were already under rely deep engage-
ment; either for the support of Ireland or for other
necenery purpoen. For drainage there had been authorised
to be issued from the consolidated fend • sum of 3.5,000,0001.
What might be the exact demands on account of Ireland,
whether arising from employment on public works, from
the relief of the poor, or from other coupes, or how far
they would be covered by the remainder of the loan, the
right hoes. gentleman was better able to judge than him-
self ; hot if he might calculate from the experience obtained
previous to the April quarter, he should be apprehensive
that the means provided would not be sufficient. It must
be remembered, too, that the ordinary supply for the year
was greater than usual. (Hear, hear.) The balances
in the exchequer, which in January were 9,000,00 W.,
were in April under 5,000,0001., and if a corresponding re-
duction in those balances should by any misfortune take
place before January next, they might by that period anti-
cipate a difficulty far greater than that under which they
now laboured, because the demands made by the govern-
ment for loans from the bank would entirely incapacitate
that establishment from extending accommodation to the
mercantile community. (Hear, Lear.) Such were the
dangers which might be apprehended if they did not observe
great caution as regarded advances, whether made for
charity, for public works, or for the ordinary service of the
country ; and his only reason for stating them was a desire
to see the country saved by timely precaution from injurious
consequences. (Cheers.)
S Mr. F. FRENCH expressed himself somewhat disap-
pointed with this proposition, and thought it hard that this
820,0001. was to be taken from the sight millions, instead of
forming a distinct item.. _ _ .

Mr. M. GORE said there was ea great a field for enterprise
in Ireland as in any other country, but there was a want of
capital, because there was a want of security. A government,
therefore, was perfectly justified in providing security which
would induce the outlay of capital, and consequently induce
enterprise and the employment of labour .
Mr. W. COLLETT complained of the exception from
government patronag,e of several legitimate railway
schemes, equally entitled to consideration with those which
had been selected.
Mr. CAYLEY was prepared to support the bill, but in
the present condition of the country the question really
before the house was not the nominal motion before them,
bat the effect upon the country of the Bank Charter Act of
1844, whether or no it had answered the purpose for which
it was deafened. It appeared to him that it had not an-
swered that pumas,
Mr. CHAI'LIN said, that as he understood the money to
be lent was to come out of the eight millions already voted,
and was to be appropriated to a purpose of which he ap.
proved, he should not feel justified in withholding his sup.
port from the government.
Sir W. CLAY defended the bill of 1844, and contended
that the present state of the money market might be ac-
counted for on grounds far other than its operation.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that all parties were agreed situ the
present alarming state of our affairs. It was admitted on all
hands, that there was great depression in the money market,
great difficulties is the manufacturing districts, end alto-
gether great disturbance in our general mercantile intervene.
Every one admitted the facts, but nobody had as yet asked
the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he now sought !
to introduce a new element of danger. (Hear, hear.)
The right bon. member for Cambridge University had
puzzled him (Mr. Roebuck) not a little. The right hon.
gentleman had made a most convincing speech; one, the
! conclusion of which was se p-ain, that every one had come to
it but the right hon. gentleman himself ; and that was, to
vote against the government proposition. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman had indeed deelsrsd, kat he
would nave voted against the prop nition but for the state-
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. What was that
statement ? The statement of to-night wan different from
that of Monday last; but it was now, that government pro•
posed* lend 620,0001. to Irish railways out of the eight
millions already voted for the relief of Irish distress. Now,
when the Chancellor of the Exchequer asked for that eight
millions, he stated that be had calculated the probable
amount o f distress likely to occur between that time and
August, and had fixed eight millions as the amount neces-
sary to provide sufficient relief. He wished to know
what circumstances had arisen enabling the right hon.
' gentleman to divert from its original intention the
sum voted for the relief of the Irish people? He
knew of no ground why this 620,0001. should be so
directed for the purpose of lending it, as a money lender
would lend mon , to these railroad companies. The right
hon. the Chancels, of the Exchequer is a previous discus-
' sion, bed suppled anhypothesis which Jere would induce
him le supra the prineiple he now rekekkeeled. On the
oottaisahe eluded to, the right hon. gemtlemem said
I base keel weft 'COMM& MO het the leeeritles which
the rafters ear nee allerate and melhinet. I haw heard nothing
to emmlnee me asilhelineek te tedestal by Ihe astitess rams
In ledrl am the whim daft
_ere at aIIINIMONWIZake
With Ur cephilkee rah Is peers& nth WO hew herd any-
thtag leaver. as ace, k the moat slake' the somas et the
c=i,miiihd will he MOWN Wilk pu h ha the tees es wed is
II OR when kr rear Ora germ* meshaseh Ise
I Yam neteing emislnse did I dm•M ed in
ungiodeg rasa en the peek of tees eweaby hese& a purpoise.
roe the pare, selleang as areas et as rale of Imhof!,
awl efeemewhg lase god dna, I *mid not hrii.
terse kabireteetthlseeekey, beekeel es hay we, Is provide
mew et lee heeded aketh hat beim I sak tie
Perk et his , made, se they hereseces in =kr great
Onto* le say wherlaidos et this Idol. a hag I mat
Ca=ed% ibet Ile woe era pe theft sod angular
ter lesteseeen. New, whisked me
re dept pink I Nuke I ma
net et test theater amid hum, a peat assay hake. On
the emdry Ithlak it were he erseekkgly wrememse
moat le Wetse n earsentary dmeeemee, that the dell.M=
I become • et snow onaperton with twinge apitellea ,
Whet bed eestured lase this to justify the imposition of
this ace bran be bow not. As he believed there was
' nothing fs pelea he timidly this proceeding—believing
that tbe relent Lmadel position of this country was one!
of great danger, spite of the sanguine expectations in which
the Chane of the lizelequer had indulged—believing
that a great egret& must be made by the people of this
country dialog the sowing months of the present year • and!
as they *di we be as yet certain of what the coming her-
vest would miss% he eseeidered they were jeopardising all
that was peat mg geed ea eel. for this kingdom, in del-
ing in fhb hem and relelleselen.lik• manner with the great
intermit of the goanap, std he shield fuel perfectly justified
in asides upon the eskedtese hrestior to divide upon the
voodoo, and is kt he pespbut leglesa know whether for
the future that which they bell eassed ley the sweat of their
brow, their care, anxiety, sad peat intelligence, was to be
thrown away like so many countess at a card-table ?
Mr. B. OSBORNE inquired whether ministers expected
that this 620,0004 to be given to these Irish railroads would
absorb the surplus labour of the country. Looking at the state
of the country, he was justified in calling upon the noble lord
to explain, now that the poor-law had passed, what other
great and comprehensive measure he had in contemplation
for the purpose of facilitating the working of that law, by af-
fording employment to the surplus labour. The drainage
act would, at the most, give employment to no more than
40,000, for about two years, whereas, under the =React,
700,000 had been steedma the reads. The ahem for
granting I,ooo,ool4lhriesishilesenste lands had bees given
up ; there was se help lbseehme tie be expected helm that
source. But it bed hen nevi that the
would imreements in
agriculture, what be eeneeptuti wpm nowiret of
the government, would imam the drawl ihr kbeor, but
he believed the experishe t hie Menky west le hew that
every improvement in the sputum et wlllwlim diatialetted
the demaed for labour apes the land. In Begird, four,
or at apes Sr., was the arseaber of lahowiersey
ord per
acre, while, Intend, the lend sow hod t for
doable cad Inaba Mir egiadart pie rim The et
the Imhogere told then thee the le per amt. et those
who had Um aleendy sheik of the patio works (and
easther le per out wee le be Nevelt eh on the 19th of
May) bed bees meshed by Me !puma, but the reports of
the gweeement befell= *swot that in Clare, Cork,
Waterbed, 111•Wholl saw purls el inbad, such had not
bees the aro goreememit rut provide some
other maw kr —ougleyles the Meer of Ireland—this
Meese. 1011,1111111.wanld net kaiak the Irish people.
(Hem, bear, awl a isila.) If they would preserve Ireland,
' and hike the isles oes ',reality, and net merely of name,
they seek gene Owing with some great end comprehensive
sham bored what they had yet done. The course of the
gomenekeg, en the preseat °cession, folly justified kim in
the vole he bed given in favour of the bill of the noble lord
(o.lleYnek), and he only regretted that a fah, pride
had revealed the noble lad (3. Itumell) from abri it.
He wee he he Make who air& Indwell would better
elspmeled
leintithell'astoewl:lll be sulli tte the bgksa 131thre
NS. which had taken place saes the union
bad wit bees mot se to conciliate any clue. What clam of
panne wall be easelliated by the messeres which were
sewl Unless-this government, or any other, were
w=Se leek the didloalty in the fees, and come forward
semmeelleekke meseares, mash as he disliked it—for be
bad no bah is look union—(langlita)—he should he
obld to *kb that only an assembly or Irishmen could
leghLte foe bin&
Mr. BPOOI,IIM add that the grant to these railways in
Ireland was set the only point to be considered, but the
ability of th*eemelny be do it. Tbls emend the question to
be commend mak or seenetary system, win-Is-should be
brought behre Ike home in all its bearings. The Chancellor

of the Ezitheque. ea • former occasion, IssZstreased views
eliffe t• then he had unwed He' said
that the men not dimkgrated,, fir -it amounted
to %, . it'wes olgiblelei far all
bat PAM he mid &Mit Mend 4 be %can:re:-
ammo Wag la, Unlit tbselial came when the
Boa tesesee the reatriatiew it kW 4804. But it
ebenbil 1181 reedtiored that what miglit M ealildent in a
Yrte af wonld not be ea 14111111 tame wee slam,
and WaM a circulation of 20,000,0001. might be enough in
thine onaideoce it would not be sounder different circum-
✓enters. The circulation was said to be 20,000,0001., but
2,500,0001. was all that the Batik showed is the last returns
The balm* against the trade of this country was 8,000,0001.,
which must be paid immediately, and in gold. Did not thin
make a greater number of notes necessary. He doubted
whether the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with
regard to the danger being over, were correct; for could
that be so, with a balance against our trade of 8,000,0001., to
be paid in gold Hitherto, the drain bad been supplied by
the reserve which the Bank had at command, and it had not
adopted restrictive measures till it was obliged to so
in self-defence. The Bank had only acted on the
principles laid down in the bill of 1844, which directed it to
set on banking principles only, and not with reference to
the country. Only 14 000,0001. was to be laid out by the
Bank in securities. What was the reason for taking this
sum? The right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth
had been asked what was to be done if they came to the
end of the 14,000,0001., and he stated that he did nut like to
say. That had nearly occurred, and he doubted, although
the Emperor of Russia had come over to our aid,
and bought 2,000,0001. into our funds, whether the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was not too sanguine in thinking
the danger was over. He believed that the fact of this a-
venge by the Emperor of Ru.sia was true. It wan very ex-
traordinary that he should come forward with 2,000,0001.
at this moment. Re thought that there was more in this
then pecuniary interest. It was • most wise step in the
Emperor of Susie, as far as he himself was concerned.
He had ambitious views, and had long been hoarding
bullion. It was possible he might think it unfitl
to him to have Holland er France, and this country
deeply in his debt. He might think it easier to meet us by
russet of the trammels of our finances than by our armies
and fleets, and if he was thwarted, he could take care that
the 7,000,0001.—i0r 2,000,0001. had arrived, and five more
were expected should be withdrawn from the money market,
and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—by this means got
out of his prissiest dilemma, would find himself in one far
greater. He (Mr. Spooner) did not entertain the opinion
that the remedy for this evil was by pushing out note*, be-
cause he believed the only effect would be the postponement
of the evil, and when it arrived it would come with double
force. But the moral of this was, that we had got such •
circulation as brought us into danger, and he maintained
that if the bill of 1844 was intended to preserve that of 1819,
it had not answered that purpose. One year of famine would
baffle both the bill of 1844, and that of 1819. Various per-
sons and circumstances bore the blame of the monetary ernes in
this country. Now it was war, and then it was peace, which
caused them ; and in 1838 it was the joint-stock banks which
were the objects of much vituperation by the right hon.
gentleman (Sir R. Peel). When the right hon. gentleman
introduced kis bill, he asked what did • pound mean ? He
could tell the house what the right hon. baronet had said.
Sir R. PEEL—But what did I say in parliament ?
Mr. SPOONER—The right hon. baronet waste* acute in
debate for him (Mr. Spawner) at once to give an answer to
an interlocutory question, but he would tell the right hon.
gentleman something. If when Mr. Pitt, in 1799, came
down and asked the house to consent to • measure which
he said was for the safety of the nation, and prevent-
ing us from becoming the vassals of France, he had been
met by philoeophors in the debate by the question—What
is a pound ?—(laughter)—and they had refused to carry
that measure, the question now would be, not what
is • pound, but where is England? (Hear, hear.)
He would venture to ask the right hon. baronet what was
the pound at the time of the conquest? (Laughter.) All
he could my was, that he hoped and trusted that the time
would come when their laughter would be founded en some
better ground than that which they had on the present occa-
sion. He asked the right hon. baronet what had been the
pound during all the fluctuations and all the variations de-
tailed in history ? Re wished the house to know that the
country was never in such a dangerous position as it was
in at present. There was, no doubt, 9,000,0001., or
10,000,0001. in the Bank of England, Many people were
told that they were safe as long as the Bank was so full of
bullion ; but those who were well versed in monetary mat-
ten knew well that the bullion M the Bank was quitc power-
less. The currency before 1819 was not in • proper state ;
but the bill of that period did not correct the defects
that existed. He would warn the house that the
danger was not over ; that it was still pending.
It was staid by the temporary measures which had been
paused, but only to return with greater force, unless the right
hon. gentleman made use of the interval allowed him and the
power given him. (Cries of " Divide.") He would conclude
with this fact, that at this moment there were very many
orders which had not been put in execution, and suspended
by merchants who had received them from America, on ac-
count of the difficulty which existed of getting cash to pay
their labourers every Saturday night. Thus they were
withholding from labourers their payments, and keeping
food out of the country. They were keeping their gold, and
star
tringbitiajewil lse.
eve his support to this vote in the same
way as he would have done to the vote of the noble lord
opposite (lord G. Bootjack), if the noble lord on his side of
the house (Lord J. Russell) had not stated that he would
leave office if it hal been agreed to, for then Ireland would
have been left for some tame without any chance of relief.
The only fault he had to find with the greet was, that it
was not sufficient. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. J . (MORN ELL thought the proposition before the
house preferable to the measure of the noble lord, the member
for Lynn, inasmuch as it defined the railways to which &Balat-
on.). wig tebegiven. He begged to express his regret that the
government had determined to withdraw their measure for
the reclamation of waste lands in Ireland, and he could not
help saying that they ought to have made up their minds
sooner,—(hear, hear)—and have given a better reason fur its
abandonment than the cursory statement of the right hon.
baronet, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said the last wish he had was to throw any
difficulty in the way of the government in dealing with the
affairs of Ireland. He wu fully sensible of the magnitude,
the danger, and the extreme difficulty of framing measures
for Ireland to meet the exigencies of the time, and how easy
it was to err with the best intentions—(hear, hear)—and,
moreover, how indulgent they ought to be in criticising the
measures which the government brought forward. It was,
therefore, with great reluctance that even now he expressed
his dissent from the course which the right hon. gentleman
proposed. (Hear, hear.) He did not approve of the measure
of the noble lord the member for Lynn, although that was
free from some of the objections which applied to tin
present proposal that was an impartial measure
and gave facility, without distinction, to all railways
—(hear, hear)—but it was now proposed to confine
the aid of the government to particular companies.
What had made him hesitate as to giving his vote in opposi-
tion to the motion of the right hon. gentleman was this .
In 1644, he had held out expectations to • certain railway,
—which had undoubtedly set the °ample to others, by great
and personal exertions, of making railways in that country,
—that, if they completed their line by their own meant,
opened a portion of it, and thus enabled themselves to give
full and ample security to the government,—the treasury
would favourably receive an application front them. And
had that company acted upon his suggestion, he should
have been bound—the circumstances being the same—to
fulfil the expectations he had excited. But the company
had declined to accept government aid, so long as they could
borrow money on more favourable terms. (Hear, hear.)
Now, when they found that money could not be borrowed
by the railway companies for less than 8 per cent., they had
no right, after declining the offer of the government, when
the state could have given them aid without inconvenience or
loss, to come forward and ask for it when money was at 8
per cent. Therefore the treasury was perfectly at liberty to
act as they thought fit with reference to such railroad. With
respect to the other two companies, the amount was email,
no doubt; but what was the principle involved ? Though
these companies were perfectly unembaressed, and though the
amount proposed to be granted was only about 100,000/., still
the circumstance of two particular railways being selected for ,
public aid would lay the government open to the charge of '
partiality ; union, indeed, they were prepared to offer the
same aid to all railways which fulfilled the same conditions.
But the consideration which weighed most upon his mind
was the particular moment at which the piroposal was made.
This was a time of peculiar and special pressure. In the
course of one week, the Bank of England tied thought it
necessary to mama the moult of it. securities by three
millions ; and be wprelhonisi that that sudden movement
had materially es, to the prude now existing, which,
however, ha believe' be he ibmeengity tenjustl,:ed by the
real facts of the own Mem.) 130, slate the proposal of the
noble lord the member he Lynn was before the house,
important events had .eared. Exchequer Bills were then
hovering between a muds% and • discount; they were
now at a discount of between 2s. and 10e. The scrip of the
new stock was at a discount of about three per cent. He had
opposed the motion of the noble lord (Bentinck). on the
ground, amongst others, that the promotion of railway works
was not by any mean the beet mode of relieving the die
tresses of Ireland ; said all the arguments against that
measure applied with fall mess to the mitigated proposal of
the right boa. gentlemen now made. But it was not so
much on that account, as on amosint of the peculiar Mai' in
which we were now placed, and the impnrtaoee to Ireland
itself of maintaining the publie credit, that be regretted this
proposal had been made. And, degreases be was of giving his
support to the government during this crisis, he found it im-
possible, with hie honest convictions, to give his vote in favor
of this measure. (Hear.) He had been very unwilling to
make any captious objections to the measures of government.
He had ventured to throw out a hint as to the =policy of
spending large sums in the reclamation of waste lands in
Ireland ; and the cowrie now pursued by the right hon.
genUeman confirmed him in the correctness of his original
impression. Perhaps the right hon. gentleman might say, he
had cot eight millions; he was going to rave something on
the public works ; the soup kitchens would not cost so mach
as had been expected, and, therefore, he might spend
620,0001. in Irish railways. He (Sir R. Peel) always heard
en
moment of that kind with much distrust.
If the government had 620,0001, to spare, it was their duty
to increase their balances in the exchequer. (Hear, hear.)
Because the house had been liberal in sanctioning the Inca,
on that very account the duty was more incumbent on the
ministry to apply any saving that might arise, not to
another special expenditure, but to diminish the public
difficulties, and to increase the public confidence. (Hear.
Therefore, if the 620,0001. was to come out of the eight
millions, which he for one had fully expected, it would be much
better applied in the way he had indicated. (Hear.) If
any &dem:toes were to be made, it ought to be an advance in
which all parts of the United Kiagdom should share • and
he mast object to • special grant, from which Scotland and