The Express.
London, England, 1851-03-11 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 11, 1851.

out of troops from this country, but would apply to the
raising of troops at the Cape and sending them to
and therefore the e:pt•me must fall on the imperial trea-
sury. If the noble lord and the government had, attended
more to the wishts of a large hotly of the memlnsrs of that
house, who werodesiretis of giver( free iustitadons to the
Cape, the present outbreak Would not have happened. Be
wished to ask if, in the last despatch', which had been
reired, there mac ony 111,1,WCT from Sir Harry Smith to a
despatch of Lord Grey relative to the divputes which had
oeeuxred about the formation of the tonstitut: ~,, , on as to
enable the government to lay on the table the papers which
embraced the period from the time of the letter, patent
going out till the members appointed by the colony ceased

to know if a copy of the despatches which had been sent to
Ceylon the subject would be produced.
Mr. HAWES said he had endeavoured, on a former
occasion, to captain why the papers were nut produced, rind
he would now endeavour to state, as clearly as he could.
the reason why the es idence taken in Ceylon by the COM-
missioncro, with regard to Captain Watson, could not now
be presented to the house. Last autumn he had received
the report of the commissioner. and the evidence, and as
it had been determined that Captain Wabwin should be
tried by a court martial, it was inetssary to stud the r.'-
port and evidence to the Horse Guards, from whence it
had been scut to the military authorities in Ceylon to enable
them to conduct the prosecution. There was a copy or du-
plicate of the report in the possession of the Colonial-office,
and so far he could comply with the order of the house ;
but there was no duplicate there of the vast mass of evi-
dence, and therefore he could not produce it. lie found
there was only one copy, which had been given to Captain
Watson, and he had written to Ceylon for the originals.
Mr. BAILLIE wished to know by what authority the
Secretary at War had sent out documents connected-with
Captain Watson's ease to Ceylon, without keeping copies?
Mr. 1. MACLE said that the papers were wanted before
a court-martial; but the matter did not lie in his depart-
ment at all, but rested with the Commander-in-Chief of the
Army, or with the Horse Guards. For his own part, of
these documents he knew nothing.
SUPPLY.—NAVAL ESTIMATES.
• ' •- ••• • •

to negotiate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said Sir Harry Smith had left the
Cape sonic time bee ire to meet the threatened danger in
Kaffraria, and he did not belies,• that there was any such
despatch as the hon.gentleman referred to; at all events, he
had not seen it.
Mr. V. SMITH said the affairs of the Cape were of too
grave a nature fur the house to enter on a discussion
with regard to the Colonial-office and the colonies
now; but he wished to point out some information
which he thought ought to be before the house. This out-
break did not come unawares on the lion. member for War-
wickshire, or the hon. member for kloutrose, for they were
aware of the position of things in the colony, hut itemise
unawares on the country-, for in the last dispatch of Sir
Harry Smith, it was Statvil that " the Kaffir. were happy
and contented under British rule," and in the very next
despatch an account was given of this outbreak. Ills noble
I friend (Lord J, Rumen) had said that in March, ISIR, Lord
Grey had sent instructions to the colonists warning them
that they would he responsible for the expenses of any
future wars. On this point there should be information
given as to what had been done, in order to prove that
his instructions had been acted on, and again there should
he information as to the condition in which the proapeets
of repress:motive institutions for the Cape stood. With re-
oreaentative institutions, it would no doubt be the duty of
the colony to defray the expenses of any wars which, with
the nrcaent extended frontier, would be constantly arising.
It was true, as had been said, that there had nut been any
taking away of representative institutions from the Cape;
bat what they wanted to know was where had been the de-
lay in granting them—(hear, hear)—and why they were
not now in force in the colony ? On those points there
ought to be iminciliate information.
Lord J. ItI:StaELL could only say that such informa-
tion as the government had should be laid before the
house, and with regard to what hail been said as to the
frontier being made more extensive, it was the opinion of
military authorities that it was rendered more defensible
by being so extended.
Mr. BANKES said he understood the hon. gentleman
the Under Secretary for the Colonies to say that he had re-
ceived part of hi. information with regard to the late out-
break from private letters. If private letters had been re-
eeiyed, it was mil that none had been received at the
Colonial-office. Ile wished to ask if there was no officer or
secretary at the Cape who, in the absence of the governor,
could communicate with the goverument here ?
Lord J. RCSSELL—There was a despatch from the se-
cretary of the governor to my hon. friend the Under Secre-
tuT for the Colonies, but it did not contain intelligence of so
late a date as private letter'.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER—There
was a letter from the Commissary General at the Cape to
the Treasury, and it added the intelligence that the
f‘d b,governoror had hiscut
en way through thy force by which he
laIPOIRTATION OF IRISH PAUPERS.
Mr. B. COC'Illt.tNE hosing referred to the inquest
lately held ou the infant of a woman named Ann Connell,
which hail died from exposure to the weather during a pro-
tracted patsere, on the crowded deck of a steamer, between
Cork and London,
Mr. LABOUCHERE, complaining that the subject was
brought on without notice, promised that the particulars
should be' inquinal into, if, indeed, such inquiry had not
already been commeneed. Ile referred at the mow time to
the bill recently paused for preventing the overcrowding of
steamboats, under which several prosecutions had been in-
, stitutesl, and every elbirt made to restrain the practice.
mETitoPoLurns COMMISSION OF SEWERS.
' Sir U. GREY, in reply to Sir B. Hall, mitt that the act
under which the present commission of sewers was consti-
tuted expired this session, and it would be necessary to in-
. troduce a bill to revive the commis . ion. lie would not say
when that bill would be brought in, but it must be in the
present session.
ECCLESIASTICAL PREFERMENTS.

On the order of the day for the house resolving itself into
committee of supply,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that the government bad inti •
mated their intention to take certain votes in the army
estimates—among others, that for the number of men.
But, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had avowed his
intention of submitting an amended budget, the house
ought to have that budget produced before they voted
away the public money. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, on the
question that the Speaker leave the chair, he should move,
as an amendment, that no supplies be granted until the
amended budget was brought forward.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the government
would explain the peculiar circumstances which required
the same number of men for the navy in the ensuing as in
the past ear?y
Sir F. T. BARING replied that when the Speaker left
the chair he should be in a position to give every necessary
explanation in going into the estimates. _
fhe question that the Speaker do leave the chair, and
the amendment of Mr. Williams, were then put; but, as
that hon. member did nut divide, the house resolved itself
into committee of supply.
Sir F. BARING proceeded to open the general question
of the navy estimates, preparatory to proposing a aerie, of
votes on account of that service. Referring to the objections
he had urged, in past years, to the system of taking scanty
itemse o
tesoff,,seuxpety,,nwec..kessiteautipngtoth„eksfincmaclyT he (Sir F.Baring)troduction elan
rejoiced to state that no such item would now appear, hut,
on the contrary, the expenditure during the two years last
pad was nearly ioo,oool. less than the amount voted by the
house, and the accounts of the current twelvemonth would
present a eontinuance of this saving to a considsrable
amount. Coming to the successive votes, he stated that the
first, that fixing the amount of men, would la• the same as
last sear, vit., 39,000; and remarked that France, with
much smaller demands for the protection of colonies and
commerce, kept on service a body of 24,000 as amen. Since
1434, again, which had been assumed as a " model " year,
the increase of expenditure on this item hail been much
larger with our neighbours than ourselves. While the
number of men remained the same as last year, the next
vote, namely, that of the money wanted to defray the cost,
would he slightly increased, owing to some increase in the
pay and allowances. Alter explaining the mode in which
u reduction of 1,246,000/. hail been effected iu the dockyard
expenditure for building, repairs, works, &c., as com-
pared with the votes of 1848-0, the right honour-
able baronet went through the remaining list of votes.
With regard to the stores' there was a decrease in
the estimates of 41,0001., and he had every reason to Ire.
lieve that the stores at the present moment were fully as
able to meet the demands of the navy as they had been
fur a very long time. The reduction made was therefore
a real reduction, and not one that would require afterwards
to be made up. Under the " half-pay " head the vote
required was apparently. large, but they must recollect
that if they had few ships in commission the amount of
half pay must be somewhat larger than in other
eircumstances it would be. This vote had like-
wise been of late years gradually diminished, and
the reduction fur this year was about 20,000/. The re-
duction under this head, as he had just observed, had been
gradually going on, and he had no doubt it would coutinue.
The vote boo the packet service this year presented an in-
crease, but this was on account of the additional fa• ilities of
communication which had been afffirded to the mercantile
world. They had made provision fur further accommodation
on the south-western coast of America, they had provided
further accommodation to the Brazils, and they had also
afforded increased faciliticsof communication with the Cape
of Good Hope. The additional 4.3,11001. for which he
would have to call for these establishments, would
not, he thought be objected to on the part of the
public, seeing that it was entirely devoted to the purposes of
commerce, and was not for the military purposes to which
the other services were devoted. On the whole navy esti-
mates
the diminution was 171,000/, and they had every
reason to anticipate that the actual expenditure would be
below the estimate he now called for. He begged to state
the general results of the board of administration with
which he was connected, not because he took credit to him-
self for the reductions, but in order that the house should
know the real truth, in the midst of the many reports which
were circulated. In stating these results, he would take
the actual expenditure, and not the nominal sums voted,
because it was quite an easy matter to reduce the estimates
if in addition to those voted were allowed to be expen-
ded. They were now near the end of the financial year ;
and he could approximate pretty closely to the sum
which would be expended. The expenditure for 1848-9 had
been 7,9d4,000/., and the actual expenditure for 1840-1 he
would not be far wrong in stating ut 6,363,500/. That he
11 was assured would cover the actual exp mliture. They
had, however, to consider that the suns of 92,000/. had been
transferred from the department on account of convict ex:
peuditure and the registry ; but even taking this into ac
count, the reductions effected within the last two years in
the actual experiditure amountedto 1,400,0001. Theright ho-
nourable gentleman then went on to compare the expendi-
ture with that under the administration of Lord Grey, who,
he said, hail acquired a reputation for economy. When
Earl Grey bad come into office in 18.30, he had found
the expenditure at 5,768,8601. Economy had been
practised, and in 1834-3 d tho expenditure had been
reduced to 4,626,000/., being a reduction of 1,112,0001.
in four years. They had, however, to consider that during
these four years the expense of the coast guard had been
transferred to the customs. The coast guard expenditure
being 142,0001. reduced the actual, saving effected in these
four years to one million. Now, the administration with
which he (Sir Francis Baring) was connected had in two
years saved one million and a hall No doubt they would
be able to continue that course of economy. He looked
with some degree of doubt at those attempts he had seen
recommended in other quarters for reducing very largely
and suddenly their naval force. Ile had seen that in 1830
Lunt Grey came into office with a feeling of the necessity of
reduction. A considerable reduction was no doubt effected,
and when Sir Itobert Peel came into office reduc-
tion had been carried still farther. The result
had been, that matters took a turn unfavourable
to such reductions, and it became absolutely necessary
to increase the naval service very considerably. Ile (Sick.
Raring) did nut approve of these ups and downs. lie thought
they should not cut down too low in days of distress and
raisetuo high in days of prosperity. That SIM really the
true course of economical administration. With regard to
the present estimates it would be found that the expendi-
ture had been considerably reduced, while at the same time
the establishments of the country were in a state of effi-
ciency as great as they ever were. The administration of
the affairs of the navy had been conducted on an econo-
mical, but not a meagre, system. Wc have largely re-
duced the expenditure, and much improved the condittenot
the common sailors and that was no trilling matter. From
the statement he had made they would have perceived that
all requisite accommodation had been afforded to the mer-
chant service, and that they had fulfilled the expectations
held out regarding the various lines of steam communica-
tion when they had been first commenced.
The CHAIRMAN having put the question that 39,000
awn be employed for sea service.
Mr. HUME rose, and said that lie was not going to in-
terfere with the latter part, or, indeed, the greater portion,
of the speech which the right hon. gentleman (Sir F. Bar-
ing) had just made, be-cause' very little of it was to the point
at issue, which was, whether they were warranted in voting
that number of men. When the several votes came to be
considered, there would be time to examine each point mi-
nutely. Ile had waited with much anxiety to know
what reasons the right honourable gentleman could
assign for continuing the number of men at the
present rate ; but the only one he had heard
was that they ought not to he indifferent to what passed
across the channel. It was very singular that when a re-
duction had been proposed in the French chamber, it had
been urged that they should nut reduce too low, because.
England kept up so large a number. Thus the French
kept up their number because the English kept up theirs,
and the only excuse assigned on the part of our own govern-
ment was, that the French kept up their number. This
was the sort of circle in which they were. This, however,
was not the view they ought to take on votes of the kind
before them. Before he proceeded further, he begged to
make an observation on the subject of the budget. He had
desired some explanations regarding it before they voted
leach a number of men, for he thought it was of importance
that they should, at this stage, know what they were to
expect from the budget. They had not heard whe-
ther it wat the intention to propose another
budget—a budget which would be, in any great
degree different from the former one; but if they might
judge from the opinions expressed both in the house and
out of doors, the budget to be proposed was one which could
sever pass that house. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He
was anxious to have had a statement of some sort before
they had gone on with voting the supplies; because, after
an experience of thirty years, he felt convinced that they
ought to have their means pointed out before they voted
their expenditure. A different course had been adopted
blets, and
told
ha
United edisme. :rot
sotaliutuct those
him. members who wished to reduce the expenditure were
haded spokentha t t
hof e y
had France,
ad
hebeuht
two
millions Stat of weretooo
oafbocoumt.merTeit
he (Mr. Hume) wished he had taken a look to
shipping which was capable of being turned to purposes of
war; and instead of looking to France, it was to the United
States they should look for a precedent in reference to their
warlike establishrmata. America, with the atingle camp-
ktipos.,:t wasur ourkseunppionnari.

....
Sir B. ALL wished to put another question to the
right hon. gentleman with reference to • return with re-
gard to church preferments which had been presented to
the house. On the 30th of May, 18i0, the house had
ordered a return to be made of the preferments held by
archbishops, bishops, and dignitaries of the church. All the
returns which had been made were imperfect, but from the
Bishops of Ely, St. David's, and Exeter the only answer
was, "No return made." He MiSlll,ll to ask whether any
communication had been made to those right rev. prelates
in pursuance• of the order of the house, whether that com-
munisation had been made to them more than once, and
whether there was any hope that those right rev. prelates
would make any return?
Sir O. GREY said that the order for the return had
been communicated to all the bishops, and in eases where
no return hail been previously received a letter hail been
addressed to the right rev. prelate's and others on the 29th
of July last. Since then returns had been received from
all of them except three. On the 6th of August he (Sir
(.i. Grey) had received a letter from the Bishop of St.
David's expressing his regret at the delay which had oc-
curred, that he hail lost no time in desiring his secretary to
make the return, but it was found to be a matter which
would occupy much labour and time. Ile had also re-
ceived from the Bishop of Exeter, while transmitting
to hint some other returns, a communie stion stating
that from the multitude of returns he had to make he had
been unable to prepare the one required, but at the same
time adding, that he thought it was a question whether he
ought to make any such retorts. From the Bishop of Ely
he had received no information.

Sir B. lIALL said he would give notice that to-morrow
he should move that the returns be made forthwith.
LABOURERS AT JAMAICA.

.......
Mr. BERNAL begged to ask his hun. friend, the under-
secretary for the colonies, whether the government was pre.
panel to take any measures to supply the alarming deficit
of labourers in Jamaica.
Mr. MANES said that as his hon. friend had given him
no notice of the question, he would rather answer it to.
morrow. He thought, however, that the papers moved for
by the right him. gentleman the member for Cambridge
would give him all the information he required.
GRAM IE ADDRESSES TO THE QUEEN.
Mr. ARCHDALL would ask the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary for the Home Department, why, when no
objection was made to the presentation of the addresses of
the loyal Orangemen of Ireland in ISIS, and which were
then " received graciously," he hail refused to present the
addresses forwarded by him to the Wine body iu 1860 ?
(Hear, hear.)
Sir O. °REY said it would be recollected that an address
had been carried in that house to her Majesty, praying that
measures should be taken fur the effectual discouragement
of Orange lodges and societies excluding persons from them
on account of their religious faith, and using secret signs
and symbols. It was true that in 1848 two addresses had
been forwarded to him for presentation from Orange usages,
and one had also been received from Canada, and if, by any
inadvertence, amidst the number of addresses sent to him
for presentation, he had laid them before her
Majesty, any censure which was due to such a
proceeding ought to fall on hint (Sir G. Grey),
there was only one other address which he had laid before
the Queen from any body of Orangemen, and which hail
been acknowledged by the Under Secretary for the Home
Department; but mi it called on her Majesty to dismiss her
government, he hail hesitated to stand between the Queen
and any of her subjects who addressed her on such a sub-
ject. Those had been the only addresses which had been
received by him ; and as to any which had been pn.siented
to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, of those he had no
knowledge. If he had not received the addresses in ques-
don, he bad only acted in accordance witharesolutionol that
house. (Ilear, hear.)
Mr. ARCHDALL said that the explanation of the right
hon. gentleman was not satisfactory, and he should move tar
copies of the addressee.
THE BOROUGH OF DUNGARVON.

Mr. C. LAWLESS wished to ask the right hon. gentle-
man the Secretary for Ireland the reason why the horou4h
of Dungareon had been so long without representation n
the present session.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that it was not a matter
connected with his department, and ha was unable to give
an answer to the hon. gentleman.
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND).
Mr. A. STAFFORD begged to ash the right hon. gentle-
man the Secretary for Ireland if he could state when he
would bring forward his Landlord and Tenant Bill fur
Ireland. _ .

SOMERVILLE was afraid he could not state
when the bill would be brought in.
THE GRANT TO MAYNOOTIL

Mr. SPOONER begged to ask the right hun. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or, as he was not in his
place, the noble lord at the head of the 'government, if he
intended to pmpose a grant to the College of Maynooth,
and if so, in what number of the estimates it would be
placed, and who it would be likely to come on ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the grant for the general
expenses of the college of Maynooth was provided for by an
act of parliament; if them were any extra expenses, they
would be in the estimates ; but he was not aware that there
would be any extra expense this year. If the bon. gentle-
'man had given him notice of the question, he would have
(risen him the information he required.
lie. SPOON ER said he would put the question again
• to-morrow (this day).
JEWISH DISABILITIES.

Sir R. INGLIS said that hi: noble friend (Lord J. Rus-
sell) had given notice of his intention to introduce a very
important bill, the Jewish Disabilities Bill, on Thursday ;
and he wished to ask whether his noble friend, in giving
that notice, had looked to the order-book for that day, and
whether he expected that gentlemen who had notices on the
paper would give way ?
- Lord I. SSELL said he was not aware whether hon.
patient:a would give way for this bill, but he was anxious
tto bring the bill in at the earliest possible period, in conic-
quenre of the house having passed a re elution last session
I pledging itself to consider the question early in this session.
CEYLON.

- ---•
Mr. Ht ME wished to ask a question respecting Ceylon.
He had moved for papers relating to Captain NN awn in
connexion with the outbreak in Ceylon. and the hon. gen-
tleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies had said that
there was no objection to his moving fur them. lie wished

Linn of title countra, was the greaten power in the world, !expenditure. The admiralty system was faulty from Mein-
and woo de only royal which we had any reason to fear. No , ning to end, and repteially us it concerned the naval dock-
sooner had the war been over than the Americans put down yards. The two millions and mom spent annually in those
their establishments, and from the report of the secretary to !dockyards might be reduced to at least one-third that
the Cniteel States m'vy he (Mr. Hunte) found that it - amount; and the result would be a more efficient navy
amounted to luny thiroyarnie %angle, including seven line j than we now pussessed. No private cement mould send
of battle ships, twelve friaates, twenty-one sloops of war, ' ship% to sea without ruin, if their construct' was managed
four brigs, and seven steamers. Let them compare here on the sante:principles aim those of the government dockyards.
the rase (of a country with debt, and that of one without Cousidering the difficulties he had to contend with, arising
debt. Ile wished now to call their attention to the number out of the system, the greatest passible credit woe du •to the
of WWI!, on the stocks. In America time had on the stocks right hon. baronet at the head of the admiralty ; but still the
four line of battle ships and two large frigatee, hut orders I house and the country had a right to know tine reason of the
had been given to stop all work on them. What a great increase observable in the navy estimates of late
difference was presented by the cast of this country. We ' years. Comparing those now before the committee with tho
had 74 men-of-war built, but never at sea. They had average expenditure fromlB32 to 1838, therewas an increase
launched a number equal to the whole of the British navy of 2,236,976/. The mischief was, a great deal that had been
since the termination of the war, and we allowed our vem dune had turned out utterly uncles.. Homier. credit to the
eels to rut. The expenses of building vessels which were right hon. baronet for his reduction', but should like to see
never used, but pulled again to pieces or allowed to rot, them go much further—to five millions, if not lower. Two
were most enormous. The quantity of timber destroyed in or three of the dockyards were utterly nselen. Ile would
the dockyards was very great. They had been Faille time abolish that at Deptford, as the commercial intereti of
ago told that thirty-three thousand Made of timber had London required that the ground should loe given up.
liken worked up, and that none was left in store. With The great increase of 'steam navigation in the
regard to the number of officers employed in the American Thames had made navigation so difilettlt and dim.
navy, he might state that they bore a very small proportion ' gerous that greater room must be afforded for coasting
to tM/Sl! in the British service. From a statement he held vessels and colliers; and there was no other place where
in his hand, he found that there were in the American • dock,. could he provided i.e them, except the ground now
navy 6$ captainns, 97
abolished with the greaten advantage to the pub-
licrubteenaen,t,sretiawnred et.:.cigyriebetel by government dock-yard at Deletion', which
anewere so small rev :ds'elmypeslearelt'whi3itru2b7gh
ours, the re- lie aervice. The victualling stores, and all the other stares
y°sesrla-thsi.on'edf healdi Zlc."l-I)u.aarlds"ait'rlia.
which ought to
bate
dtheantepalwassee
lowing reductions—vie., en in place of 68 captain's 80 in broke ought also to be abolialied : the latter was the most
officers than mum% lietoem'proteyed,tahteldt rentitimeeemen.ed.sedeetheterl-
place of 97 commanders, and 300. n place of 327 lieutenants. scandalously mismanaged affair that ever existed ler any
Ile found that in 1833-8 the nundwr of men borne government, and the V.PCII.I, of ship-building there was at
were more than the number voted. The number of men least one-third more than it ought In he. Its distinee ren-
borne was 20141 • in 1636-7 the numbers were 31,136; in dered it scarcely within the control of the Admiralty, :Ind
1837-8 they were 31,289; and in 1838-9 they were 32,000. the abuses existing there were such as wettl.l astonish the
.1 great proportion of these men were to man the African world. Chatham need not be maintanied an) longer as a
squadron • and with regard to it lie thought the house ought building-yaril. The yard.. at Woolwich, Ponamou t It, and
to have had some explanation after the unanimous express Devouport, including the Keyham baain—where alas limns
sine of the house against it last year, and seeing that no- hied been the most eatramilimery misfit:tibia. pent -were
thing but a threat of resignation on the part of ministers in- sufficient for all the ship-building; and if more ships were
dueed the house to alaCernitli continuance. lot Mahe found wanted than would 11.: built in those yard., let them be
there were 14 veseelscruising, while in 1815, when the number done by contract. Ile sow uo necessity tor keeping up such
of men had increased to 40,000, there were 28 ships of war a formidable army. They might sally n•ilue.• the number
on the coast of Africa, and 9at the Cape of (heel Hops.; of men in the navy to about midway lie•tween what they
being 37 tench tilDegether, where there had formerly been were in 1832-34, and the 311,000 now proposal; and next
only 14. It had been proved that the attempt,' to put year they might make a further reduction. Having este.
down the slave trade by that means were futile: they had blishments they could not reduce them all at once;
tried for twenty years and had fuiled, and the United States but the time had come when they must seriously
and France were both desiroue of receding from their en- meddle with the whole of their finanCO. They ought
µeasement, ; AO that there was now no excuse for to take a genera view of their whole espeadi-
e naiuuina the squadron. Ile should DA the house turn, and then of their whole taxation. In the present
that evening whether they would continue thk squadron. state of progress, with the steatmengine, the netain-prtew,
If they disconainueel it, 30,600 men for the nosy would lie steam railroads, and steam-ships, our intereourse with all
amply sufficient to defend the country. Ile :aka the parts of the world would not let us go en much longer with-
country gentlemen who, to the number of 270, voted lately out grappling compreitimaively with the whole system of
for relief in agriculture, whether they meant to be hornet? our taxation and expetoliture. With this conviction he
Where were they now ? (The opposition benches were must, however reluctantly, without any &crow. disposition
almost empty.] If they wanted to malice taxation they towards the government, but as a duty to his coestituents
must reduce the expenditure; they wore not there, and he and the taxpayers generally, support the amendment
would record them as being Assist. In Dela they had 167 which had been proposed.
ships in commission, with 26,400 men; in 1844 the men Mr. COBDEN maid the question heetre the committee
were increased no BOW, and the ships to 231; and in 1848, was the vote of a sum of money equal to the income tax, to
without any tenon fur it, they had 43,0110 men voted, and the malt tax, or to the whole of the assessed taxes, with tho
actually maintained 44,500, and the ships in commission addition of the soap and paper duties. For it could not ho
were 246, wandering about the world, and often doing mis- concealed for a moment that, if they coral the number of
chief. Now was that a proper state of things when the men, it was quite in vain to think afterward. of reducing
people were in distress?—and in distress they were ; fur materially the vote of money in the ttavy. 11.• was con-
though in the manufacturing districts they were receiving elided, from three years' experience in conunittees 011 navy,
good wages, and provisivas were cheap, yet he had army, and ordnance estitntites, that it was a delusion to
seen many reverses in his time, and might see thud, of effecting any considerable staying in the espendi-
more. And were they to be without a govern- dun" of the navy, unless they could reduce the amount of
meet ? Ile believed the present ministry did not the forces. Going back to 1845, and looking at all the re-
want to be in; they would rather be out, anti there was ductions ever effected, they would WV that the number of
nolmay, it seemed, to Dike their place.. And he would men natal had been generally a fair teat and Doke of the
here einem, that lewd Stanley did not compliment the amount of money spent. There might tie exceptions, aria-
-270 gentlemen who voted fur protection, as he said there ing from large occasional outlays. This test upplied to the
was only one of them who could take office. It did not, reductions made by the right 11. m. baronet opposite (Sir J.
however, require brilliant talent to carry on the govern- Graham) when he exercised his moat useful sway at the
mint according to the wiehes of the people; and were they Admiralty from pao to 1834, for while he effected a reduce
to he told that, out of 270 gentlemen of the House of Cora- tion in the expenditure from 5,687.000/. to 1,726,0011/., the
mein, they retold nut find fifteen or sixteen who were came- reduction in the number of men was from 32.000 to 26,000,
ble of carrying on a department, more particuloorly being nearly in great a per centage as that of the money. It
when it sat well known that the departments was not difficult to amnia a reason for this. In dealing
were carried on by the clerks ? (laughter.) Ile with the navy, they were dealing with the largest manufac-
ailtuitteil there ought to be a head in the Chaueellor of the turing concern in the kingdom, or perhaps in the
Exchequer. (Laughter.) Whether it haul been found this world. It was a large manufactory of shipping, employ-
time he left the people to judge. They were the 'smelting ing upwards of 10,000 persona, the greatest pro-
stock of the people of Europe at ibis moment, who r.lllll portion of whim, were skilled artisaite. There was no
not understand why one class of men were not as capable of concern like it in England, or probably in the vaned, taken
carrying on the government as well as another. Punch us an individual moment employing labour. It was:, maxim
represented a certain high personage going to the which nobody would dispute, tltat the worst Of all 'nano-
, old doctor. The mentent he (Mr. Hume) heart' harden. saw a government. At present our doe:nada were
Blatt he said, " You may depend upon it, it political inetiturnme from beginnina end. Aid. generally
I will be as we were." There was not an im- speaking, the parties engaged, down to the loweet shipwright,
provement connected with the army since 1840, or in were independent of the men who might tuliave the power of
connexion with lielithouses, or with regard to pilots; that disputing of them and dispensing with their services. He,
the Duke of Wellington had not opposed. And for her therefore, louked to other means of reducing the expendi-
Mmesty to be advised to send for such a man ! "They did turn, and caked if it was nenewary to keep up the number
not," continued the hon. member, "they did not tend for of 39,000 men ? In 1833 they hail 25,00 n; why keep up
me." (Laughter.) lie was, perhaps, as old a doctoral; the 14,000 more now? This was no motion of the Peace
duke—he was in the field as early to he was—he had paid Society for the abolition of our navy ; but he wanted to
more attention to the passing events of the last 20 years, know why '23,000 men would not suffice an well for the
and lie thought he could prescribe quite as well. 114%y now as an lti3:t ? Were any eiretunstancea alleged to
Ile must say the people would look upon them show that the country was in greater political ur national
as a set of dente to allow such proccedinge to go on. &lager than in 18:13 ? There were then some grave inter-
The people would require them to come to a decision sonic national questions unsettled; there was a serious boundary
way or other. l'apal aggression seemed to he the point at question with the United. States; a dispute with Revue
issue. lie thought it impassible to carry the measure which involving a threatened war; and there were diplomatic
had been proposed, without creating almost a civil war in quarrels looming with France, respecting the Littera of
la neighbouring country. He considered the 1611 was oh- Tahiti and Syria. All those were now diepreted
jectionable, and for his part he would resign his scat rather of; there were no boundary questions— nothing which
than rennet religious liberty. He counselled the noble lord could excite hostilities from any quarter. Where,
to do either one thing or another, either to bring in a then, was the necessity for keeping up this amount of
bill which would satisfy the country, or withdraw the bill force ? He knew but two reasons why we' should keep a
altogether, and not let the time of die house be taken up by navy at all—because we were a maritime people and had
the hill as it now stood. Much as he should deplore the shipping, and becauae we hall coasts to defend from some
restoration of a no-popery cry, he thought the only remedy enetuy. We did not keep them to go and ettinmit &pinta-
her Majesty had was in a general election. He wished the roue on other people ; the object was to tomb e•t commerce
constitution to be maintained, and to prove to the world and to protect our shore's. lie believed that a great
that a representative government need not lie impeded dead of exaggeration prevailed ate to the occasion for
as it now was. To return to this vote. If they the navy to be employed in defence of our corn-
rejected this vote of 39,000 men, what would be the merce. Generielly speaking, where wo had trade we
consequence ? Government would say, " We cannot carry had international Meath..., ambasselore, ("mauls, and sot on.
on, and we won't do it." The house would say, " You It was a remark constantly made in the newspapers of the
must do it ;" but government would say, " No, we won't," United States of America, that they never saw one of our
and then they would be again "as we were." Ile thought ships on their coast; and in the larger portion of the cunti-
they had arrived at a state of things they ought nut to put neat of Europe they had ambassadors and 1:011SUIS to rectify
up with. Ile complained that her Majesty had been ad- any mistake's that might occur. In the ordinary state of
need to send for the Duke of Wellington, and said that, in theme, therefore, there was no necessity for keeping up a
his opinion, the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) large number of ships of war. (Rear, hear.) He did
had advised his being sent for. lit would now not say that a clan of small sham were not nes
whirrs himself to the country gentlemen. Ile found cessary as a kind of police in time of peace.
that when wheat was at ens. a quarter the agriculturists In this respect they would do well to imitate
received in the aggregate 210 millions sterling per annum the example of the United States of America. The governs
fur grain, but now that it was at 405., they received only anent of the United States did not keep up any fleet except
140 million., making a difference to them of 70 millions. for commercial purposes. They had no line sot' battle ships
There was no wonder, therefore, that they sought relief. afloat, or even in commission. (Haar, hear.) The only
Ile asked them, therefore, to join him, and to take his one they had uffisit was withdrawn about twelve months
budget, which would give iem a margin of 10 millions to ago from the Pacific. They had only one vessel
deal with. Ile proposed that, instead of 191 millions of 34 guns employed; all the rest were gun-brigs
being expended in the army and nary, they should of from 10 to 10 guns, which they used as a
go bock to the expenditure of 1834-5, which was police force in time of peace. (Ilear, hear.) lie
from 12 to 14 millions. There was a margin there was ready to admit that England had political rule
of five millions and • half to begin with. lie Done which the United States of America had not. But
would undertake to make that reduction, and leave the even in that point of view our policy was objectionable.
services more efficient than they now were. The interest To what country did they usually look for a juaitication of
of the debt amounted to 28 millions, and they were told the large armamenbt they kept up. The right hon. gentle-
they could not touch it. lie did not want to touch it. Ile man invoked the example of France us a precedent for
should be very sorry to break faith, but he thought that by keeping up u large navy. But wan it not singular that in
taking a comprehensive view, by. economy, and n•treneh- the bureau on the trench navy our example was quitted as
meet, they might lower it by paying their debts like honest a justification for keeping up a large war navy in France.
men. Then there was the civil lia, which they were told It this was an emirate statement, the, example of this
they could not meddle with. Ile Was sorry that ministers country stimulated the increase of naval armaments in
had not recommended a revision of thee civil list. Not that France. If it was inaccurate, why did they so frequently
he would take a farthing from her Majesty, who had rather quote the example of France? (Hear, hear.) He might
too little. Out of 385,0001., she had only 60,0001. All the also read extracts from the epteelies of M. Thiess
rest was frittered away in useless array. There were forty- and M. Lamartine to show that they measured their
five lords and ladies iu waiting, shreda of the aristocracy, own navy by the standard of England. They were satin-
whose salaries ran away with a great portion of the allow- fled with keeping up two-thirds of our force, hut if we
e,ceerorewinrriereeeirrenurejaf,
Iwytiach,
rrebleatetrepiliteiofni..re(nlrlee,alre,rhtebaerm.) wheniitt:nwdliat
o etritty
rboteeet
anise, and who were paid for attending un a went on to augment our navy they must keep theirs in a
few
wre administeredgreat d
Fromby theth e
and Forests, and whore administration absorbed nearly the large armaments was upon the finances of France. (Hear,
whole amount that they received, they might procure hear.) Why, that the finances of that country, whilst they
ample funds for the payment of all the expenses that the were strengthening their navy ut a frightful cost, were in a
civil list need he put to. They might sell the ',miscast, state of confusion that the wisest and ablest men of the
and apply the income to that purpose . They found no country saw no possibility of escape from the financial
difficulty in selling estates in Ireland, and they would find difficulty. (Hear, hear.) Let it nut he forgotten
no difficulty in selling the crown estates. Then the that they were now voting a sum of 5,700,000/. But
atiscl,Bso%loolazusrbeeexgprdibteurewomoightnerbe
2,300,0001. for diplomatic services, judges, and other that was not all, for though they separuted the packet
cuteutdowdr those esefrvirt frrom.trlroieeenavary, heee rerenbardirr
eudndtheer 800 the, 001,11 te.
noon, accountnbrati
o
who really did the work. And then there was another of the naval service, because the vessels engaged
great item on which reductions might be made. The eel in the packet retake were in reality most formidable
lection of the revenue cost more than seven million*. The war 'steamers (Hear' hear.) Cunard's ships were capable
customs department coat three millions, and it could be of carrying the heaviest guns, and there were not such for-
better done fur two. 'f he house had not been fairly dealt midable boats in the royal se. vice. He therefore considered
with in this matter. The house had twice resolved that that what they were now virtually voting was not
the coot of collecting the revenue should he brought into ac- 3,700,000., but 6,500,000/. , which the Chancellor of the
count, but that had nut been done ; and there were seven Exchequer stated as. the cost of the navy. (Hear.) There
millions of revenue which never came under their control. was but 19,500,000/. which before he house to be
lie recollected in 1821, showing that collectors of assessed voted, and oi that sum, ' 15 000,001;t
1. wlafor the an y, navy,
taxes had collected monies that they had nut accounted for; and ordnance. (Hear, hear.) Now, they str erelesked te
and Mr. Herrin* plumed an set to prevent that kind I vote more than a quarter of the whole sum, and if they
of thing. But they went on still in the old way. I voted this without any scrutiny, without say reduction
We had not a single colony in which there did not exist I whatever. Mow was it possible for the: with • i any crowns-
dissatisfaction at the childish trammels in which they were I tency,-
of to vote or a reduction the taxation of the country
kept, for the sake of extensive patronage being exercised by (Hear, hear.) Unless they reduced the expenditure
the government at home. The days fur this were gone by. I could nut reduce the taxation. (Hear, heir.)
lion. gen-
They should now consider whether England might not be tlemen who sought transfer the
nCarden from one set of
relieved of the expense of 8,000 or 10,000 men in Canada. shoulders to another amt of shoulders would fail •
.sworn-
Should the necessity arise, we could never send 20,n00 or ptishinthat object. (Hear, g
30,000 troops there to maintain that colony ; it was impos- , in the country who would bear more taxation, anal
sible. They had their own government, they should be ' and relieve it to
try
by throwing it on the shoulders tit' somebody
called on to pay their own expense. Looking at the amount ; nee wasquite 'elle. The only n t .b way to do it was by reducing
of the miscellaneous estimates, upwards of 3,900,000/ , it thereducing the number of men to
was impossible to deny that there might be a considerable I 30,00rewIleVee—' Ilido was only '23,000, and it was with that
reduction made in every item, except the vote for eduea- ! view and that conviction that he supported the motion of
tion; that he would increase. He would thus ' his hon. friend. (Cheers.)
lessen the cost of crime, rain the morality of I Lord J. RUSSELLhe wou con said that ld fihis bee o r-
the country, and put the people in a better ; anion* to the u • of q estton the number of men, and would
position than they could by building gaols and filling them not•
enter
into the question of the dockyards and other
as they were now doing. The hon. gentleman concluded
by moving a resolution, declaring that it was the duty f the Admiralty.
Still less disposed wee he to go over the
the house to take into its serious consideration in what
manner, and to what extent, the number of men could be I her for Montrose, who, though not having been sent for by
reduced without detriment to the public service; also de- her M on a late occasion, had, nevertheless, fiellowea
clueing that the African squadron was inefficient, and au' eta
to be dispensed with. the examp)c of Lord Stanley and entered into an expel
would have adopted if he had been
tion of the policy h •
The CHAIRMAN said it was not competent for the hon. fortunate enema to find gentlemen who would have takes
member to propose in committee of supply a • resolution of office with him (I slighter ) He did nt m differ from
this kind pledging the house to a certain course. The vote the hon. gentleman the • member for theoWeat Riding who
before the committee was as to a certain number of men; said that thequestion ofthexpense very much decided
ideel
was
and the question was whether the committee would adopt • by
the number of men. (Hear, hear.) lie could not,
or negative that vote. ' however, agree with the honourable member that,
Mr. HUME then said he would propose as an amend- because there against wastefulness
meet that the number be 30,000, instead of 39,000 men. in the dockyardsan
and outcry
Mr. MACGREGOR said that every member ought to ' against political patronise!,
Which he said entirely Infected every person employed in
find great difficulty in coming to a vote of expenditure the dockyards, these accusations were well founded. (Hears
without being acquainted with the mesas of meeting that bass.) He belie yed that a great deal of the wasteful/wag