The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-21 00:00:00

BILL.

hood without interfering with the employment of children
of 'roe labourers.

Sr G. Gage's answer did not reach the gallery.
RETIRED NAVAL OFFICERS.
Mr. RIME moved for a '• Return of ell retired rear-
admirals, captains, and commanders, Frowned and placed
on the retired hat, nu and since the 14 day of October, OM,
showing the date el entry of rich Mica into th - navy, the
date when p.issed, the dates of th. it several cornmissisns suc-
cessively attatied, the period which each officer has served
in each cmnissffin, and alsi the time en halt pay in each
commission, the aggregate time of full and hall.pay of each
officer, and the tntrd amount of retired pay ; also the rate or
annual amount of ritirrd pay ; together with a copy of the
order in council, autnurising the retirement."
Agreed to.
JUVENILE OFFENDERS BILL.
An Row. MEMIIEIa 'eked what mums government in-
Model to take with the Juvenile Offenders Bill f
Sir G. GREY said that in consequence of some unforeeeen
diflicultiis it would be necessary to postpone the bill until
next year.

The house then went into cmrnittee on this b
On clause 16 being read,
Mr. BAINES proposed that thiselsase be e•raek oat. He
had atteuded to the suggeetion made by the hye member
for Sontareetshire (Mr. W. Mlles) when this bill wss last
before etvernittee, ut.l he should props* a ewe hereof:or
in acervdance with that sugp stion, relative to the ensign-

-
tion of poor persons.
Captain PECHELL wished it to be ascertained whether
it was the opinion of the hews that a certain description of
persons whose relatives could pay 'or their maintenance,
ought to be kept in the poorhouses of this country ?
Mr. BAINES said such cases would be inquired into.
The 'hum was then struck out. On clause 18,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked fora modification of that
part of it which required persons entering the vr.ukhoures
to give up any money or property which they might be
possessed of, so as to exempt persons braugtit in from
accident or sickness.
Mr. BAINES mentioned caeca where so mu..ls as 201.
and Wt. had been found upon pauper inmates, and it wee in
such cases only he wished to make such funds scalable for
the eupport of the pauper. (Hear, hear) He did nut
mean to interf.re with any property lett by will, but only
with that found in the pos,ession of the pauper.
After a general conversation, Mr. Baines tawlilled the
clause so as to except wearing apparel and burin. as imple-
ment!, and charged the wording en as to apply only to
" any money, or valuable security for money," fount in
possession of the pauper while an inmate in the workhouse,
adding that eases of sudden ace.dsnt might he excepted by
the guardians as the clause di I not make it compulsory, only
gave them the power so to act.
The clause as amended wae then agreed V., as were the
remaining clauses of the bill.

B&ILWAY AUDIT BILL.
Mr. B. DENISON, who spoke in a low tone of Trier:
u uederstood to inqu'.7Z wiinic governtneni meant to
take with the Railway Audit Bill?.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that a deputation of gentle-
men conneced with the railway companies had waited on
the first minister of the crown, and announced their inten-
tion of giving the bi I their most strenuous opposition, both
in principle and detail. This being the case, the government
had come to the conclusion, very relactant'y, that at this
period of the session it would be useless to persist with
the messeue. (Lieu, hear.)

THE DANISH WAR.
Mr. SANDARS wished to know whether the armistice
betweeu Prussia and Denmark had been ratified. Also when

the bleekeie woul'i be raised.

- -
Lord PALMERSTON said he had received information
that day thst • pry luminary treaty, Inc tiding the armistice
and the raising of the bl.,cltade had been ratified at Berlin
on the 17 h. The armistice was for six months, and he
trusted that before that time a definitive treaty of peace
would have been concluded.
&wee.' How. MZXBULII cried ont, "Tlte blockade, the
blockade."
Lori PALMERSTON said he believed that the blockade

would be mused u soon as the mitituy forces had taken the
lines they were to occupy pending the armistice. He could
not say how many days that would take, bat the period
would be short.
__

Mr. BAINES moved the addition of a cilium enacting,
that in cue of an equality of van upon any queatiun at a
si,:etiog of the guardians of city union, the presiding chair-

■ alma siiiiiog shall hair a 0000 id or cluing vote.

Captain PECEIIILL objected to the injustice of a double
Tote.

BAINES defended it on the ground of necessity.
When there was an equality of votes end no casting vote,
the whole proceedings became abortive and great inconve-
nience toll med.
The clause was then agreed to and added to the hill.
Mr. BAINES then moved the following clause in lieu of
clues 16, which was struck out the day previously—
And he It enacted, that the guardians of say pare& or union may
mewl, with the order and euh,ect to the titles and regulation. of the
pone
e.l.aw board, but not otherwise, any sum of money tot exceeding
poem& ke each person, In and about the emigration of mss
persons having settlements in such parish, or in any parish in meth
lesion mem lively, without them amity of the ratepayers and owners
of propetty therein meeting, and giving tivar commit (as squired by
the soil act of the Sob year of King William the Fourth; to such
expenditure, and such imsnlians shall charge the same to tee parish
of the eel nentent in every eue where such soar person suited there-
in, or wm removable thereto, at the time of the emigration : Provided I
that the guardian, cc (if more than one; a majority of the guardian.
of such Loit-inenthened parish, shall concur in the resMution of the
board of Fur liana for rich expenditure, and tint each concurrence
shall be 'dignified by the clerk of the union, in coomunicatiug that re.
solution to the poor law bused : Provided also, that the aggregate
amount ot the mimics upended in the course of any sac year in and
shoat the emigration of such pear (mesons, shall not exceed onethalf
the average yearly pour.rals raised in the said pariah for the three
preceding years.
Sir J. ORAIIA3I asked the hon. and learned gentleman
why he hied upon so large an amount as 151. a head tor
emigration, availing himself of the opportunity of t spressinr
his greatest satisfaction at ire able manner in wni:h the hen.
and learned gentleman conducted the business art his very
difficult and critical of
Mr. BAINES slid that the sum was no doubt too Lade
fee emigration to the Canada;, but the poor law commis-
skitters sometimes promoted it to Australia. He, however,
was not wedded to the aunt, and was quite ready to move
any other sum the committee should think St.
After a conversation, in which some hon. gentlemen
thought IW. sufficient, while whets proposed a wider limit,
it was eventually arranged to substitute 101. for 151., and the
clause was so amended. It was also amended so as to make
the majority of the guardians express their concurrence in
the resolutions of the board of guardians " in writing ;" and
that such cuneurrence shall be transmitted by the clerk of
the union to the poor law board.
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the bill.
Mr. WOOD moved the following clause:—
And be It enthtni, that it shall he lawful for the guardians of any
union, or to the select vestry, mothballs, directors, man tarp., or
mermen of the lose of any parish not in union in England or
Vial.% and they are hereby authorised to pay out of the maiden in
their hand. fur the relief of the pour in such union or parish respec-
tively, the cent of or intending the ethicati n of the children of parents
receiving relief out of the workhatoe, or of children partly or wholly
maintained by means of a poor rate out of the workhouse, within
such union or with. and also to make contracts tor am petted not
exceeding one year, with any schoolmaster, for the miumniur of such
chit-hen, and to pay the amount to contrected to lie paid out of the
said monies, subject, however, in respect of all such payms-th. as
aforethel, to the ruts and regulations which may front time to time
be mode by the poor law board in respect of the schools at which
such children shall be placed, and the maximum amount to be
allowed for such payment, in respect of each child, whether by con-
tract or ...otherwise • and all payments so 111441 e shall be elLuired to the
common fund of die union, or to the parish where the same ii oat in
union.
Mr. BAINES said that though he fully appreciated the
motives of benevolence which induced the bon. member to
move this clause, yet he could not help thinking that there
were several objections to it in point of principle. If they
adopted the clause the guardians would have the option of
neglecting to use their pewee which it would be considered
their duty to exercise. If they allowed them the power it
would be looked upon as their duty to use it. Another fatal
objection to the clause was that if it were adopted it would
give to the hoards of guardians the power of taking to them.
selves the education of all the out door paupers throughout
the country. He thought it his duty to resist the introduc-
tion of this clause.
The home then divided—For the clams
Against it
The clause was accordingly rejected.
Mr. W. PATTEN, in the absence of Mr. HITWOOD,
moved the following clause:
And whereas by an Act posed in the twenty-second year of his
Lite Majesty George the Mirth intitukd, " An Act for the better
relief and employment of the Poor," certain Unions were formed,
commonly called Gilbert's talons, of which several still remain In
different parts of England, be It therefore enacted, that the provi.
stone of this act be extended to the unions so created under the
before mentioned act.
Mr. BAINES did not object to it.
Capt. PECHELL said that he should oppose the clans*,
as it involved a question t^o important to be now discussed,
and as he was of opinion that the proposal= contained in
it could notlbe carried into operation.
At the suggestion of Mr. B. DENISON and Mr. SPOONER
the Claus, was withdrawn.
Captain PECHELL then moved the following amend-
ment to follow clause 4.
Whines at the time of the passing of the List mentioned act of
psnlngosst. divers poor pastes residing in parishes where they had
Yj se hot settlement, and hem which they were not irremovable
wake this pawkier of the old act, were receiving relief from the
podia he libish they weft legally ettkid, or from the unions in
walla auk p as are alheatad ; and whereas such relief was is
mug =me withdrawn under en mew= ecentrueqou put on the
aW seti, geseeby the said him ameattessed whir, or the unions in
whigh May are situated, bed as =sift. sea poor persons and
Ma befarred great and homy eapme thershy. end oath expense is
net mew meseerable le kw kr the removal of
seek perseparsons to the pine of =iserPtieseat. be it therefore
eaasr~lbet it shall be heft the pew law board to order the
ethelpsent he the first mentioned perishes, eir to the anion. in which
key me *sated, or to the overseers of the poor or guardians
Swermtimpectieely by the pseigner by which such relief as aforesaid
inn bin withdrawn, or the unions in which sock last mentioned
=we situated, or by the overseers of the poor or guardians
respectively, of all such end of relief as may be ved to the
uthithetion of the said board to have been by sorb hint
moillined parishes, or the unions in which they are situated, by
Neon of such relief having been withdrawn, as aforesaid.
The motion was put and negatived without a division.
The bill then passed through committee, and the house ad-
journed at ten minutes past four till six o'clock.
The Brralan resumed the chair at six o'clock.
INFANT POOR.

Mr. MILES, seeing the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment in his place, wished to put a question to him. It
would be in the recollection of the holm that the kite la-
mented president of the poor-law board, late hat session,
laid on the table a r• urn of the number of pauper children
in 16 workhouaes. There was Dome deficivnt information as
to the amount of children capable of s,rviee,
but he had obtained a return as to the number
of children in the workhouses of Somerea•shire.
He wished to know whether the Colonial-office had taken
any means of ascertaining whether the coloniel, particularly
Australia, would take Dome of these children as apprentices?
The umber of children at present in the workhouses of
England and Wales was 56,323, of whom no lees than 8,271
were capable of entering service, and of those children who
mon deservedly walled for the attention of the government,
vb., the orphans, those whs had only mothers, were —1,578
males capable of enteriog service ; females, 1,171, making •
Wall 0[2,749 ; of childrenof widowers in the workhouses there
were 577, including both Blames; of children of widowers not
la the workhouse 157, making a total of 3,6B3:children now
capable of entering service. The question, therefore, which
he wished to put to the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment was, whether it was the intention of government,
having regard to the number of children in the workhouses
in England and Wales declared to be capable of entering
service, in co-operation with the different colonial establish-
ments, to recommend a systematic emigration of such chil-
dren, whereby the poor rates might be relieved, the poor
benefited, and the children ;night Obtain en boner. livtli-

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 21, 1849.

last 18 menthe of the effect of a moderate duty on the price
lot corn. We tad, in the course of that period, passed from •
state of perfect free importation to a state of duty of
seven shilling, in the month of March, ,1848, and
we hod continued unuer the payment of duty
from March until the Ist of February, 1849, when we
had suddenly aimed to have duty payable, and we had corn
importel free of ell duty. Now, he b-geed of the house to
mak the progress of events during these periods. All who
had engaged in the discussions upon the Corn Bill seemed to
think it quite possible that a moderate duty would enhance
the price to the oonaniner. The noble lord (J. Ruoull),
then a protectionist, proposed a duty of 103., with the inten-
tion that it should keep up the price of corn to between 50s.
and Ms. per quarter, and though the noble lord wee probably
univinced of his error in that respect by this time, yet there
was no doubt that he made the proposition for the purpose
of doing justice to the landed interest. Now, in January
and February, 1848, there was no duty on corn. The im-
portations at that time were of fair average amount, not
varying very materially in their charge-tir then, and in the
corresponding menthe of 1549. For example—the imports-
tations of wheat in 1848 were—January, 82,000 quarters ;
February, 97,009; March, 81,000; April, 116,000; May,
121:000 7: and June, 112,000, The vice in 4:l*.i.iy, when
there wee no duly, was ;Li February, Ns ;in
March, when a duty of 71. was put on, 515.; in April;
when the duty also existed, 495. ed. ; in May, 475. 13d. ;
in June, 465. Ild. ; in July, 475. 11d. ; in August, 52,. 3d. ,
in September, 1525. 9d. ; in October, 51e. ; in November,
511. 6d.; and in December, 47e. ed. In January the price
dropped to 455., there being • duty then prevailing, accord-
ing to law, of 10s. In February, when the duty fell to le.,
the price was 455. 3d. ; in March it was 445. Ild. ; and in
April the same; and there had been from the beginning of
the peseent year until now a scarcely varying price of about
455. butted, therefore, of corn being diminished in price,
as we should have been led to conclude from the

theories of the noble lord (J. Russell) anelothen, '
who discussed the subject, by the lowering of the duty, the
price had continued almost unveiled, although there had
been a tolerably equal importation of corn this year and last.
Hs contended then, that it followed as a matter of perfect
conviction that the duty of 71., then the duty of 104., and
then the duty of Is., bad not affected the interest of the con-
sumer even to the smallest extent so far as the price of the
article was concerned. (Hear, hear.) He would not
undertake to say at what price corn could be grown and
brought to this country. That price varied in different
countries ; but, suppose it could be brought for 30s. or 320., a
large margin wouldstill be le ft for the imposition of the mode-
, rate fixed duty. It was la singular fact, that when tidal of 7s.
was Imposed in March, 1848, there did occur a correspond-
ing diminution in the price of the foreign producer. The
price fell at Dentzie and other places, in a ratio correspond-
tog with tee increase of duty in England. (Hear.) This
was a singular effect of the duty, that it had compelled the
foreign producer to fix his price in some degree at the
price in England. Now, if the price rose considerably in
this country, the higher it went the more easy would it be
ftr the importer to pay the fixed duty. lf, on the con-
trary, it deicenled considerably, the more difficult would
it be to import ; but should that circumstance deter the
house from the adoption of a system which would raise
revenue at the expense of foreign countries? If, for in-
stance, the price now were to descend Rs. or 10s., and a
fixed duty were imposed, importation would be repressed
from some countries, such probably as France and Bel-
gium, but it could be carried en with others,
where corn could be produced at a cheaper rate.
It it were true, as he maintained it was, that they might'
derive from the importation of corn an accession of public
income perfectly free from inconvenience to the consumer,
and not weighing the weight of a single feather on any
leingfi•M subject, and taken from the profits of those who
sent it to this country, or from the profits of the importer,
then he submitted that it was their duty to adopt his motion.
If ,they could add millions to their revenue by these
mean., they ought not to hesitate upon the subject,
for the foreigner and the importer could pay the
duty, and still derive very handsome profits.
In January, 1849, when the duty was ids., there was im-
ported 710,000 quarters of wheat, 713,000 cwt. of flour. In
the four tollowing months the imports of wheat were no leis
than 738,000 quarters, and flour 1,238 cwte. So that if air
It. Peel's duty which existed in January existed in these
four month, and that corn maintained the price of 455., we
would have derived a of 7.10,0001, whereas the
acme' receipts were only about 210,0001., showing a
loss of about 540,0001. on the four months, or at the rate
of 1,500,0001. a year.: They had seen that &duty of 10s. did
not increase the price while it would put that sum of money
in'o the English exchequer. Even supposing a ss. duty,
which was much below the handsome otter of the noble lord,
there would have been considerably more than was re-
ceived in those four months. He, therefore, maintained
that they could derive a considerable revenue from the fl-
portafion of foreign corn without in the slightest
degree injuring any British interest. (Hear, heir.)
It might be paid that his object was to introduce
the small end of the wedge ; but he begged to assure the
house that his propositi ,a was honestfy, shim-rely, and
truly what he professed it to be, and nothing more.
lie was not in a position to make a distinct cat
tion on the subject. It was not in the power of a member
of that house to propose a tax of that description, although
he might have suggested it in an indirect manner by sub-
mitting a resolution, declaring it to be the opinion of the
house that it would be wise and politic to adopt that
mode of increasing the revenue. That might be made
the subject of a vote ; but he declined to propose it because
l be firmly believed that it his opinions were true they would
' lank into the minds of men and create a conviction out of
which would undoubtedly arise the memos he desired to
see adopted. The question was certainly of great' import-
I since in an economical and fiscal point of view. If it were
' tree that they could derive a large additional revenue with
so little inconvenience they were bound to obtain it, and
I when that house and the country became convinced that
' such w..s the truth then the patience of the house in having
f now listened to him would not hays been wasted. (Hear,
hear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave the
right hon. gentleman credit for having carefully avoided all
topics that could give rise to party uiscuseion, and he hoped
his example would he followed in that respect. The right
hon gentleman tell into some errors respecting his (the
Chancellor's) estimates. The customs revenue up to April
last year, excluding corn, exceeded those of the preceding
year, and he trusted that when the blockades of the northern
ports were withdrawn our customs revenue would be made
sensible of it. Respecting the excise, he had only to repeat
his former statement, that the deficier.cy of excise duty crime
n•ot from a Alli•g off but from the postponement of 190,0001.
malt duty. Besides, there was really nothing so fallacious as
forming a judgment from one year. He was, however,
sure that the income of the present year would not fall
below the estimate he made • month ago. He, therefore, saw
no reason on that ground fur imposing a fixed duty on corn.
Hiving spoken so recently and so long on this subject, he
felt almost ashamed to detain the house, but he would be
very brief in his remaining observations. He would not
refer to the hot 4 gentleman's fi;ures, as his argument upon
tl4 .m was entirely speculative. His whole argument was
founded on the effect of the duty upon the price of corn,
drawn from the spring of last year. Nothing was more
fallacious than such a mode of rsesonino. uely he
could not suppose that any sound ;occlusive in-
ference could be drawn as to general prices, from
the effect of a duty during a few months or
even • year's experience, without referring to • va-
riety of circumstance. It was nutori,to, that in 1847,
when the harvest was remarkably good, that there was a
very large importation of corn by which many speculators
were ruined; and, as a considerable psrtion of that remained
on hand, the price of corn was greatly affected by it.
He quite differed with the right hon. gentleman who went
so far as to say, that if they added a duty to the cost of pro-
duction the price in this country would not be raised. He
was convinced that by putting on • fixed duty they would
rai►e the price of corn in this country. The right
hon. gentleman had very fairly brought dila matter forward,
and left it to the consideration of the house and the country.
He was perfectly ready to abide by the consequences, and
was confident that the right hon. gentleman would not suc-
ceed in converting the people of England to his views.
Mr. G. SANDARS supported the proposition of Mr.
Herrin, being convinced from practical experience that a
moderate fixed duty on corn in usual years would not en-
hance the price to the consumer in this country, where price
was governed by supply and demand.
Mr. MITCHELL said, the doctrine that a fixed duty on
foreign corn would not be paid by the consumer was a mon-
strous one. If a foreign country had a surge' of torn, and
if this country was the only buyer, in such a ease, to a cer-
tain extent, the duty would fall upon the foreigner; but the
effect of a fixed duty would be to put large sums into the
pockets of the growers of English corn.
Mr. NEWDEGATE impugned the policy which de-
pressed British agriculture and gave away millions to fo-
reigners.
• • - • -

Mr. COBDEN said that the hon. gentleman who had just
sat down paid him the compliment of calling him a skilful
agitator. It was true, indeed, that to agitate at all success-
fully one must be in earnest—(hear)—and, if with a good
canoe, one must succeed; but even with a bad one, he would
be respected for his perseverance. (Hear, hear.) Now, the
fault he found with hon. gentlemen opposite was, that they
showed no earnestness in the course which they pursued.
(Hear, hear.) It was quite impossible to know if they
were dealing with realities, they were to often
called upon to deal with shams. (Hear, heir.)
What was the course pursued by hon. gentlemen opposite
during the present session A few days before the assem-
bling of parliament the Duke of Richmond had a meeting of
farmers in which he shaioored out to them the great efforts
that were to be made to restore the principle of protection
and to prevent free trade from coming into operation. Well,
the hon. member for Buckinghamshire came down
to the house, and, as the leader of the protection
party and of the farmers out of doors, who thought
he was about to fight their battles, he moved
an amendment to the address, but it did not contain one
word about protection, and the amendment was never put
is a division. (Hear.) On another occasion after that the
poor lumens were brought up in great numbers to Willis's-
rooms. There was a great display of party eloquence
which ended with three cheers for the hon. member for
Buckinghamshire, the leader of protection. Well, the
hon. gentleman brought forward his motion about
local taxation, but in the very beginning of his
speech he said he did not mean I. discuss the princi-
ples of protection. Oa the next occasion there
was a large cavalcade to Drury-lane Theatre, and another
gnat more was to be made in the honest. The farmers' hopes
were raised, the principle of free-trade was to be reversed
and protection was to be re-established. The hon. gentle-
man again earns down to the house with another motion, but
not one word in it about protection. He talked of every
thing else, the foreign:and domestic policy of the government,
hut there env:lately we' not one word about renewing the
cum laws. (Heir, hear.) 34t the smsfon zrzst not end

the Home of Commons, Still • clerical assembly.
though addressed in such language u " shams " and
..dodges." (Cheers.) He would now consider the question
more immediately before the house. Throughout the dis-
cussion he had observed that the line takes by hoe, gentle-
men opposite was that of an attempt mule in a clumsy and
rude manner, to conduct the oubjvct into what woe termed
a cona•law debate. (Hear, hear ) How was thi. question
introduced? Hie right hon. friend esamtn.d the quarter's
revenue on the 'To of the pror lotion of plrliewent, and
aftara severe nosiest, his impreeeton was that the revenue

without doing something to keep up the delution—(hear)—
aud so the right hon. gentleman brought on the present
motion, and what for ? The general impression out of doers
was that the right hon. gentleman was asking for a fixed
duty on cone. But the right hon. gentleman made no
motion. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman made
loss. !IMMO about its not being in his power to make this
motion, but he wu too old and experienced a member not to
know that it was quite practicable for him, if he liked,
now, before the close of the debate, to propose that
at a future time it was expedient that the hones
resolve itself into • committee of the whole house,
for the purpose of imposing • fixed duty of Bs. a quarter
on corn. (Hear.) What he contended for was, that the
people of this country ought to have their corn as cheaply
as any other people in the world. He did not mind what
the natural price of corn was, all he desired was that the
people of this country should buy it at the same price as
any otherpeople. (Hear, hear.) No person in the multi
tude of speeches which he made on this subject ever heard
hint make use of the argument that they were going to bene-
fit by an excessively low price of corn. That was the argu-
ment of the protectionists. What he wanted was to have
corn at its natural price, and the hon. member for Wakefield,
in admitting that they could not have itwith a fixed duty,kad
atimitted the whole cue. (Hear, hear.) But more than
that, the hen. gentleman admitted the justice of his (Mr.
Cobden's) argument in another way, for he said that if Hol-
land did not put on a duty of 51., and we did, Holland
would get its corn 55, &raper from Dant zie than we should,
but then he said that Eugland would have the advantage of
the duty if Holland put on re fixed duty of ss. It was ad-
mitted that Holland, if free, would get corn cheaper
than this country, and that in his opinion was a better
way of putting the question than it could possibly be put by
any contactors, who, of course, had a greater commission if
they sold wheat at 655. than if they sold at 55.. It teemed to
him to be an extraordinary thing for any lon. member to
propose • tax of any kind to the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, for their business war to prevent him from imposing
taxes. (Hear and laughter.) He therefore took the bon.
gentleman to task on that ground. But the hon.
gentleman was a bud witness for the sight hon.
gentlemen in another respect, for when the right
hon. gentleman sad that the duty might take effect at
355., the hon. gentleman raised it a little, and said that it
might take effee: when the price was 40s. What is a farthicg
in the price of the loaf ? said the hon. gentleman. What is 4d.
a week to the labouring man ? it is only 17'. • year. (Hear.)
But if the hon. gentleman spread that farthing in the guar-
tern loaf over 6,000,000 ot families, how much would it
amount to ? (Hear.) The hon gentleman never calculated
on getting more than about 1,000,0001. from his 5.. filed
duty; but fourpence • week from the 6,600,000 families of
this country would produce 5,000,000!. (Hear, hear.) But
how could they pay that whim the right hon. gentleman
only proposed to levy 1,000,000'. on foreign corn ? It would
be done by raising the price of the corn which
was grown in this country. (Hear, hear.) All
the corn consumed in this country was consumed
at the same price. And the same duty therefore
would in reality be paid for all, whether home or foreign,
because no corn could be admitted except at the price of the
corn of domestic growth. (Cheers.) If they meant to pro-
pose a tax on corn let them do it honestly, and let
it be done at the mill—(cheers)—because then with a
duty of only 1.. they would rail a revenue of 1,000,000?.
And if they chose to impetus a duty of 5.. they would raise
a revenue of 5,000,0001. (Hear, hear. But the
right hon. gentleman said that he would not lay
a feather's weight of taxation on the com-
munity by this proposition, and that the consumers
would not have to pay any d for their bread. Well, it
that be so, what became of their profissions to the farmers,
that they intended to raise the price of their produce?
(Cheers) They bad no petitions for a fixed duty as a
matter of revenue. He had seen a petition from the West
Riding, presented by the hon. member for Bucking-
' hainehire, praying for modetate protection to all
interests, and for a moderate fixed duty on corn.
They said that they would imp se the fixed duty for the sake
of the revenue, but then they told the farmers that it was
with a view of giving them protection. (Hear, hear.) This
was the new dodge. (Laughter, and " Hear, bear.") No
~sauna petitioned that house for the sake of the revenue.
No person petitioned for any tax. (Hear.) The thing was
ridiculous. (Hear, hear) But the farmers had no ob-
jection to protection, and this was the way in
which they, as a party, could bring forward
the question at all ; and, therefore, he t :pressed
to his triends right and left, when he heard the right hon.
gentleman so blandly declare that he did not intend to pro-
mise one farthing extra on the price of wheat in this country,
and that on this occasion he did not wish to refer to " that
other question "—(much laughter)—his utter astonishment
how the protectionists had power of fan to behave so.
(" Hear" and laughter.) One might suppose them to be
acton on a stage, who whispered aside tl each other, and
assumed that they were not heard by the whole audience,
because their language within the home was so different
and so much at variance with their language out of doors,
that unless they had view notion that they were invisible
and unheard, they could not possibly talk in the way they
Old. (Much laughter and cheering.) He did not under-
stand how any of them c inld talk to the Writers daring the
next autumn. What a question on which to get up an atti-
tion ! If the right hon. gentleman came to him, he would give
him a lesson in agitation.; (" Hear," from the protectionkte.)
He absolutely pitied them for their want of tactics. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member for Buskinghscashire was the
head of a great party. A great party wanted come principles.
(Hear, hear.) They would not hove protection—they bad
not courage to tight that battle. The only principle they
had was a bread tax. iLsughter.) Only think of
a great party going to the country and appeal-
ing fur support, on the ground that there ought
to be a tax of 4d. a week on the bread et the labour-
ing man. (Laughter and loud chum) The bon. member
for Warwickshire seemed to think that there would be a
universal uprising of the people. Ile said, in rather solemn
ton a, (laughter), that the people would soon recover their
judgment in this matter, and that the day was not distant
when they would see the advantage of paying Id. per week
more for their bread. (Laughter and cheers.) It was a) wonder
that the idea of a universal uprising for such a bread tax
should he glowing in his breast. (Laughter.) Now if they
took a little piece of advice from him, he would recommend
them, instead of trying to get into power by contending for
this miserable tax on the prime necessary of life, to set about
reducing the expenditure and taxation of the country.
(Hear, hear.) No party could get into power without
doing something popular, and they would not get
into power without doing something popular. They
had two sides, one side fur this house and another for the
farmers out of ,doors- -one for the rent audit and another
for the hustir gs. (Hear, hear.) Were any of the farmers
ruined by free trade ? There was a prospect of a good crop
this year, and of high prices, and therefore he did not sec any
cause to grumble.
Mr. DISRAELI said the hon. member for the West
Riding had bees so kind as to offer to give them (the pro-
tectionist members) a lumen in the art of agitation ; and he
(Mr. Disraeli) was willing to admit that if they wished to
attain any knowledge of that pursuit they could scarcely
have recourse to a more consummate master. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member excepted to their conduct
by Saying that they had one language in that
house, and another in other quart, re. But it he remem.
bered aright a' celebrated oration which was made by that
same gentleman in another place, he had the ingenuous and
amiable frankness to say that that was one of his universally
acknowledged characteristics. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
He said it was a general accusation against him that he
made use of one tone of sentiment and one kind of expres-
sion in the House of Commons, and employed different
language when addressing his countrymen in other places,
and that he believed there was some juxice in the charge.
The great master of agitation, therefore, if his present r ]le-
gation were true, should, instead of sneering at their tactics,
accept them as proofs that they had become worthy of
having such a master to lead them. (Laughter.) Ile
wanted to know what those gentlemen who sailed banquets
in the north of England and wrote letters which were state
papers to the financial societies of Liverpool, had done daring
six dreary months to vindicate their opinions and to maintain
that policy the prosecution of which was considered almost
necessary for the salvation of the country. (Hear, hear.)
Why, less troublesome opponents to a government, lees ar-
dent, or less earnest advocates of a political theory he had
never met with. (Hear, hear.) It was with the greatest
possible hesitation that the other night, on • very tender me-
don for financial reform, the hon. gentleman the member for
the West Riding went into the same lobby as his hen.
friend the member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). Eves
the very partial and limited scheme of a reduction of 10 per
ant. on salaries frightened the great apostle who had come
forward to regenerate the country by an immediate
reduction of its expenditure, amounting to not less than
5,000,0001. It was very well to come forward pro-
fessing factitious sympathy for the people after they
had lived to feel, during three years, all the bitterness
of disappointment, as the result of believing in those who
prided themselves on being adroit political tacticians, and
successful political agitator,. (Hear, hear) The hon.
gentleman said that he (Mr. Disraeli) and his friends near
him were insincere in their professions out of doors. He
denied that they were guilty of this charge; but even if it
were true, were they the only culprits ? (Cheers) Why
he saw before him a gentleman who, in giving a programme
of the party of which he was a most able and efficient mem-
ber, promised to reduce the church establishment, and gave
a catalogue of political and ecclesiastical changes which he
intimated to his audience he was going to Westmin-
ster to effect, but they had since heard nothing
of them. lie denied that the protectionist party
had on any occasions, and particularly on the occasions
to which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Cobden) had referred,
done anything inconsistent with the general tenour of their
opinions. What was the amendment to the addreu ?
(lieu, hear.) They were called upon to declare that the
country was in a highly prosperous state. In mild and mo-
derate language they protested against any such declaration,
and hon. gentlemen opposite, if sincere and earnest in Belt
representations to the people, ought to have supported
the amendment. (Haar, hear.) Consistent politicians !
(laughter)—adroit tacticians ! successful agitators ! (Cheers.)
The honourable member for the West Riding—a great
doctor in the political art, a Gamaliel at whose feet
they were all to sit—(laughter) —speaking of him (Mr.
Disraeli) as in a position which he really had never had the
ambition to occupy, and pretended not to occupy, speaking
of himself and his friends, he said, " You'll never
get on with all this want of earnestness and sincerity;
I'll give you some good advice : you must have a principle.
You have a great principle, but you shrink front avowing it
—that principle is protection." Yet within ten minutes
afterwards the hon. gentleman said, " You'll never suc-
ceed ; you'll never catch the floating intellect of the country
until you get rid of the nonsense, the rubbish, of protection."
(Hear, hear.) Such was the inconsistent language of the
adroit politician who offered to give theta (the protectionists)
lessons. lYty he (Mr. Disraeli) wouid be ashamed to meet a
mob at the Matins wish sash rhetoric, to say nothing of I

of this country wes ins highlyruneetialactory state, and that
it was necessery to replenish the cotters of her Majesty.
Purely on fiscal principles he suggested that • tax
should be leviel cm the impartation of iortien cora.
lie admitted that if it could be shown that the consumer

would be taxed by its adoptiim the whole prop sition fell to
the ground. lie had never heart an argument put more
temperately, more calmly, with more severity of logic, with
more facility of repression. It was a masterly argument,—
the exposition ample, but nut too long (Hear.) 'Well, how
was his right hon. friend met ? The first person who replied
to him wee the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, consider-
ing that the right hon. gentleman had a good deal to go
through, and recollecting also the length at which
he had newly addressed the horse, he did
net wish to criticise his reply. lie was willing
to pass it by, for ho confessed he slid not
see a single point that called for the slightest remark. The
right hon. gentleman shuffled off the question. lie made a
few vague and desultory observations, and then appeared as
if conscious that Ito bad done hie work foe the session.

(Laughter.) hen he was asked whether they (the
proteztiouists) would go to the country and csk the
people to pay 41. a week more for their lined, be
would reply with the statement he bad just road, and
abide the decision 'of his countrymen wi'h p tt. ct con-
tentment. That was his reply to the agitator *ho wanted
to give them krone. lie *ould tell him that ho w..uld have
nothing to do with his stale tac•ica. (Cheers.) lie night
go back is his banquets where the meats were eon ; he might
go back to programmes which were never followed up m that
holm

Mr. COBDEN—I divided the house.
Mr. DISRAELI—Irstead of following the hen. mem-
ber's example he would fight him with his (Mr. Disraeli's)
own weapons, and with those weapons he would heat him.
(Cheer.) The bon. gentleman had not attempted to grapple
with hie right hon. friend's facts. His right hon. friend had
first given certain phenomena, and then theory in explana-
lion, showing that mere wee a margin within which they
might tax the foreigner, without interfering with supply.
Placing a scientifi t rgument before the house, i.e was met
with rubbish. He suggested a measure for the re-
lief et tae people of Eagland—for anything which
tilled the Exchequer without. imposing new contributions
on the subject, was eminently a measure of relief to the
people of this country. (near, beer.) Who would tat that,
under the circumstances, with an exhausted riche quer and
the support of practical men, and considering also his own
public pesitioo, his right hen friend was not justified in
making the suggestion that he had done ? (Hear, hear.)
His own opinion was that the suggestion which bad been
made that night was a politic suggestion, and would soon be
a popular one—(cheers)—although its adoption m.ebt be
mortifying to the vanity of individuals in that borne; it
might hurt and oficnd the self love evened political patties.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE could not admit that the ditteuseion of
that evening had been useless or uninteresting. When,
however, the honourable member for Buckingham-
shire said the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
shuffle' off the question, he could not agree with
bins, for there was, in fact, no question before the
house. (Hear, hear.) Some time ago he tick
the liberty of putting a qnestion is the noble
1
lord at the head of tree foreign department on the subject of
the entrance of the Russian troops into Transylvania. (Great
laughter.) However amusing this allusion might appear,
he should conclude with a definite motion, and he believed
it to be perfectly competent to him to do so. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN rose to order. Taking, as he did, a deep
interest in Hungarian affairs, he would submit to his hon.
triend whether he might nut injure his cause by introduc-
ing the aulject then.
The SPEAKER said the hon. gentleman (Mr. Osborne)
was perfectly in order in bringing the subject before the
house, as the only question was, that he (the Speaker)
i should leave the chair.
Mr. B. OSBORNE declinod to proceed.
Mr. BRIGHT said that during the discussion that even-
ing s.v.ral reasons had been assigned as those which hal
probably induced :he right hon. gentleman the member fur
Stamford to bring the subject before the house i and, as he
believed that all those reasons had been repueltmed, either
by the right hon. gentleman himself or by his frit ode, he had
beeu endeavouring to discover what could have made the
right hon. gentleman, without wishing, as he said, to briny
hack protection or to lay any burden on the people of this
country--so anxious to invite the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to increase the taxation which
the people were now called upon to ray. He
had recollected that the right hon. gentleman was, some
twenty years ago, Chancellor of the Es hive. r himself—
( hear, het)—and that there had of late been a report that
he might possibly become Chancellor of the Exchequer
again—(laughter,—that old habits, and, perhaps, hopes re-
cently revived. might have led him to try bit hand at a matter
of finance and tag-diem, although he had not been regularly
called in lied asked to prescribe. Now lie (Mr. Bright) was
not dispoesi to shirk the consideration of the questien which
Ihe right hen. gentlemen had placed before them. ( near.)
Vlie hon. member for Buckingham said that they had not
met the question, whether this small fixed duty uttuld be a
harden on the inept° of this country, and whether foreigners
Could be induced to pay it. If e should put the question in a
come from
wouuruldAub:
very simple term, but he thought a very conclusive one. Let
some even occasionally from
it be observed that we drew our supplies of corn from sit
parts of the wore' under free trade. We brought supplieg
trim the nearest European ports; we brought some from
country, end
Spain, some truss variots parts of the Mediterreneen, a large
quantity (rem the Black See, a large quantity from the
United States of America,
which our "m
ludia, and he belisfeavneeltssou:sse
Italian colones. He askeid the right honourable
gemtlernaa, whether a duty even as small es that which
he was reported to reconammol, would trot, to soma extent,
deirracevumn7aitbeanthye surface
rate of price in this
whether at [a reran price we might not bring corn from
China and India, and at a certain other price from the
Black Sas, and at another price from the United States, and
at a certain other price from the Baltic and near
ports. The tax which the right hon. gentleman would im-
1101^, would necessarily reduce the limit and make the circle
lets. Ile now came to the hon. member for Bucking-
hamshire. Ile had found great fault with the hun. mem-
ber for the West Riding because his language ii!d MA
meet kis views. As to the question of t conomy, he asked the
hon. member for Buckinghamshire, whether this was not the
fact, that during this session every motion for econn- „..,-
with the exception of one or two within the laid for •"'"
had been opposed by those hon. members who et- Alithee
:rued hie
support in this house ; and when they went to '
he hoped they. would learn from th .
farmer,
eecorsunttry,
ai
their Conduct in this session on '
watched, and that the farmers
' and point had been
members on that side of the fe ,ere aware that if as many
members on that title of the
..uuse had been in favour of eco-
nomy 0101!9ii5 "I.e. t'...se government could not have resisted
the propositions
..nich had been made in favour of a great
rednetint or the expenditure. He thought that hon.
gentlemen opposite should learn not to place much trust in
protectionist leaders. The right hon. gentleman, the mem-
ber for Tamworth, was a'great protectionist leader at one
time; he was not so now. (Hear, hear.) Lord Stanley
was a great protectionist leader now, but it was not long
since he was in favour of a bill called the Grinding in Bond
Bill, which was opposed by hon. gentleman opposite as a
free-trade measure. He also supported, if be (Mr. Bright)
was not mistaken, the bill for allowing corn to come from
Canada, which was called a destructive measure by hon.
gentleman opposite. Lord Stanley had changed his opinion ;
he was a free trader once; he was a protectionist now; he
might be a free trader next session. The hon. member for
Buckinghamshire, on one occasion, declared that free trade
was the great policy of the old tory party; at least he (Mr.
Bright) had a recollection of some such expression u that
coming from his lips. The hon. gentleman now, although
he eat at the head of the protectionist party in this house,
repudiated protection almost in express terms ; and
be had a very sanguine hope that, after this session,
the honourable gentleman would never again stand up at
that table and advocate a principle which he must ace to be
hopeless, if he did not already believe it to be unsound.
He did not regret that this question had been brought on
to-night ; he hoped that, as they were approaching the end
of the session, they were approaching the end of discussion
on this question of free trade. For himself he was con-
firmed in his belief in the truth of the principles of free trade.
It would be a consolation to him so long as he lived, that
he had been, in the smallest degree, instrumental
in causing the adoption of those principles by the people and
the government of this country, and now, whatever poverty
existed in the country—he never passed a man, woman,
or child, however poor, however wan, however suffering,
but be felt a consolation that his voice had been raised
against a system which had made them more poor, more
wan, and more suffering; and he believed that, as the sea-
sons passed over us, we should find there would le, on
both sides of the house, and in every portion of the country,
a general, not only acquiescence in the principle. of free
trade, but a clinging to them so firmly that no political party
would ever be able to change the policy which this house
had so wisely adopted in late. (Cheers.)
Mr. WODEIIUUSE could not help expressing his regret
that this motion had not been brought forward in some
other ship, when the sense of the house might have been
taken distinctly upon it; but hehailed this proposition, pro
lento, u an auxiliary measure in favour of protection.
Mr. VILLIERS was afraid that sufficient attention
had cot been given to an important admission,
which seemed to nut an end to the recurrence
of similar motions. The honourable gentleman who was
one of the oleeat and most sincere of the protectionists,
who had agitated this question of protection for the last 30
years, had the courage to avow that his measure of a fixed
duty was nothing more than a protee ive duty—was a mea-
sure that would raise .the price of food to remunerate the
producer. This was a most important admission, and he
would only add one word, and calling the attention of the
house to the sentiments of a most important protectionist in
the other house—Lord Winchihea—who said, that he
trusted that if ever such a project as a fixed duty was pro-
posed to this country, that the whole people would rise as
one man to resist it.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE said that a proposition was now
made most easily to replenish the exchequer, and that pre.
peeition emanated from his right hon. friend below him
I CNlr. Heroes.) It would be thankfully accentedby the
hancellor of the Exchequer, but he nano forbidden to dose

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