The Express.
London, England, 1849-05-19 00:00:00

CONVICTS IN VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.

Sir W.4IOI.ESWORTH asked the hen. gentleman, the
Ui,der Secretary of State for the Colonise, whether he in-
tended to send out any more convicts to Van Diemen's
Land, and whether there was not a despatch of the governor
of Van Diemen's Land stating that, in his opinion, there
was no room for convicts ?
Mr. HAWES, in answer to his hon. friend, could not give
him or the house any pledge whatever that there would be
a cessation of transportation of convicts to Van Diemen's
Land. It was the wish of government to send out as few
as possible, at the proper period ot time and under proper
regulations, but he could give no pledge of the intention to
cease. As to the despatches of the Governor-General of
Van Diemen's Land, indicating, in his opinion, that there
was no room for convicts there, he begged to state that no
d•spatch had been received on which such an interpretation
could t e put. Ha was gciog to lay on the table a fresh
bitch of papers relating to transportation, upon which the
hon. gentleman might put his own construction.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE,
On the motion of Lrd J. Russitxx, it was ordered that
the house, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday next.
ADJOURNMENT FOR WHITSUNTIDE.
_

In answer to a question by an Hox. MEMBER,
L -ird J. RUSSELL said that he intended to give notice
that co Friday next be would move that the house, at its
rising, do adjourn till the Thursday following. He might
as well seats that, as it was in the power of the povernmeat,
according to the rules of the house, to give notice on Fri-
day that the supply be taken on the Thursday following, he
intended next Friday to give notice that the supply be taken
on the following Thursday.
AFFAIRS OF SICILY.
Mr. BANKES said that he had given notice to the noble
lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that he would
put a question to him this day ; but as they had now
reached the usual time for commencing public busmen, and
as the noble lord was not in his place, he would put the
question to the noble lord at the head of the government.
There were two quesi ; the first related to a question
which he put to the noble lord the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs a few weeks since, when, in answer to a
question of his, the noble lord then stated that the
cabinet of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire-
land did recognise a separate Siciliaa government indepen•
dent of the government of the King of the Two Sicilies.
He now asked whether the cabinet of Great Britain still re•
cognised a separate Sicilian government, independent of the
government of the King of the Two Sicilies ?
Lora I, RUSSELL.—My noble friend dated, es far as I
recollect, that there was, at the time the negotiations were
carried on with the government of Sicily, a de facto govern-
ment existing in the island. I do not believe that any de
facto government is now existing, and therefore there Is no
government in any way recognised.
Mr. BANKES—The question having been answered that
an independent government of Sicily no longer existed—that
there was no Sicilian government now existing in
Sicily independent of the government of the King of the
Two Sicihea—the noble l'rd the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs having now taken his place, the second qua-
den wee to this effect, whether the noble lord was
aware that as the result of the permission which was
Oyu by him to transport ordnance from her Majesty's store*
leg the avowed use of the Sicilian insurgents (he supposed
they might now call them so), end other encouragement
ghee te these parties who formed an insurgent govern-
ming in Slily, this cireanutence arose : —Two steamers were
sepged; sae t• sail from the Thames, the other from Liver-
pool. The steamer engaged to sail from the Thames was
detained by order of the Board of customs. A question arose
sad the matter was referred to the Board of Treasury. The
Beard of Treasury, after duly considering the subject, and
after having bad a communication, probably with the noble
lord, and the noble lord having had a communication, as it
had been stated to him—but he might be mistaken in that
respect, as he had no information from the minister of the
aces of the king of the Two Sicilies—but he believed a
eammaication was made to the noble lord by the minister
tithe king of the Two Slakes that the detention of the ves-
sel should be continued, the Treasury declined to interfere.
and the vessel was at liberty to proceed. The other vessel
she proceeded. She reared the port of Palermo at a
oddest period, and sailed to lldanaillea. When she
reached Marseilles, the minister of France, taking
a different view of it from the noble lord, at
the commend of the minister et the King of the Two Sicilia
to the Cent of France, had detained the vessel in the port
of Marseilles. He asked the noble lord whether lie had
been aware of the (hounding's which had been oo stated to
him, circumstances which appeared to be correct, and
whether he considered that we had enforced those laws
which it was in our power to enforce for the detention of
welsh avowedly going to disturb the peace of a friendly
gentry. Tbe question related to the detention of the
vessel, the Bombay.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the hon. and learned
gentleman, under the guise of asking him a question, had
given him as much complete information as if he had been,
our own correspondent." (" Hear, heer," and laughter.)
He did not follow the hoe. and learned gentleman through
the whole of thew details as to what the French govern•
meat bad done. He Auld my that the persons who com-
posed the provisional government at Pslermo had quitted
Palermo, and at present, according to the last accounts,
there was no recognised government there. As to the vessels,
It was true that one verel did leave Liverpool, and arrive at
Palermo. As to the second vessel, the Bombay, applica-
tion was made on behalf of, and by the Neapolitan minister
here, for the detention of the Bombay, on the ground that
she wee shipping in violation of the foreign enlistment act,
and, therefore, she ought to be detained. The matter was
referred to the treasury and customs. The foreign office has
nothing to do whatever with the execution of the law, ex-
cept making known to the proper department any assertion
that the law has been violated. The whole of the mama
lion was carried on between the treuury, the customs, and
the proper offer; and it was in consequence of legal *d-
eign that there was no justifiable ground for
further detain-
ing the Bombay, that the Bombay was released.
MARRIAGE OF
ENGLISH NATIVES WITH
OREIRS.
In answer to a question by Mr. Ansisr, relative to the
rights of English women in two instances in which they had
martied foreigners,
Lord PALMERSTON said that he would lay the cor-
respondence on the table. An English lady had married a
It man subject, naturalised in Egypt. He died in Egypt.
The natter mate under the cognisanee of the consul entitled
by nationality to protest the Roman 'abject, and the British
sonsul bed no right whatever to take any notice of the pro-
perty. The statement was made by the widow in this
country, and instructions were sent to her Majesty's Consul-
General to ascertain what became of the property. The in-
formathra was ascertained and communicated to the widow,
bat the woe informed that the British government had no
right te ; her husband being a foreigner, and &W-
-eikel is a foreign unastry, her claim mist fall within the
eatiosality of her husband. As to the second ease, about
Mr. Paget, he would luire if there was • letter. The can
was entkely similar. A British lady, who married a fo-
reigner het in a foreign country her nationality. She fol-
lowed tie aationality of her husband. In this ease, it was
en Malan subject who married a Bikini hug.
iseisd it was in the Austrian dominions OW
WNW Her marrying a British eMeste crlntis rho
resciont la her own natural anginas, cola sot &vent her
do off oneio
re shameseerinusbantry
dna uril:lil an; sequinedo
doctrineforeigner by s
ifbdoerliodotlitrft the
beyTnhathatitecoalia 11t
legalyT
adviser, of the crown, and which no one was disposed to
"PTO-

OCCUPATION OF HUNGARY.
Mr. WYLD asked if the Britieh government, having
connexion with the coverament of Fiance, sent any protest
against the occupation of Hungary by the Mosque, u the
remarks of the French Minister of Foreign Affairs gave
occasion to suppose ?
Lord PALMERSTON—Her Mlesty's government hive
made no protest on the subject.

CASE OF MR. W. 8. O'BRIEN.
Lord J. RUSSELL, having moved that the record in the
case of Mr. Smith O'Brien be entered as read, said he bad
now to move that the said Mr. 8. O'Brien, a mimber of this
house, had bees convicted of high treason ; and he would
state the course whim's he proposed to take on this ocessien,
which he believed was without precedent ; but, being with-
out precedent, it was a case which would relieve him from
any necessity of either proving the heinousness of the offence
that had been committed, or of urging on the house that it
was en offence which necessarily incapacitated the person
who had been hitherto a member of this house from con-
tinuing to held a seat in the house. The precedents which
were upon the journals, which would at all have any refe-
r reuse in this cue, wen of two hinds. The first kind was
with respect to cases of high treason. The first ease that he
should mention was on May 10, 1715, with respect to J.
Foster, a member of the house. It was resolved " that John
Fester, a member of this !nue, having been taken in open
, rebellion, bearing arms against her Majesty, be espelle 1
tom this house. Secondly, it was ordered that the Speaker
de Imo his warrant fora new writ." The other case was
en Jan. 2, 1716, the house having been informed that J.
Carnegie, of Forfar, being armed on the part of the rebels,
during the; late rebellion, and there being persons at
the door who could prove the same, they were
called in and examined at the bar, and gave an account that
they had seen him armed, and he was ordered to be expelled
the house. The other cases were cases with regard to which
*here might be a doubt as to the nature of the offence. He
would not mention the partieulan, as they did not bear on
the present case; but they were cues of perjury, conTintey,
and various offences of the nature of nisch mesnour, on
which there might be a doubt reasonably entertained who.
ther, from their nature, they were such as to require a severe
penalty. The present case of Mr. S. O'Brien is the case of
a member with respect to whom no proceedings had
I been taken, when it was said he was armed against her Ma-
jesty, when he became a prisoner, because this house had
waited till the conclusion of the proceedings, when it ap-
paired, from the record whieh had just been entered as read,
that Mr. S.O'Brien was wrens ed fur high treason in Ireland,
that he was convicted of that high treason, and, the writ of
error having been brought against the conviction, all the
pleas were overruled, and the judgment confirmed by the
House of Lords. He would therefore move that "It tip-
I pears, from the records of the House of Lords, that Wm.
Smith O'Brien, a member of this house, has been convicted
of high treason." And when the house has agreed to that,
he would further propose that a new writ do issue for the
county of Limerick.
Sir F. THESIGER wished to make a suggestion with
reference to the wording of the resolution. It said, " con-
victed of high treason." But the noble lord would see that
attainder did not follow on conviction, but on judgment.
It should run " &Minted," the civil death resulting not from
the conviction but from the judgment.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that a middle course
would be perhaps the best. lie would recommend the in-
sertion of the word " adjudged."
The motion as amended in accordance with the suggestion
of the Attorney-General, was put and agreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that a new writ should
issue for the county of Limerick in the room of William
Smith O'Brien, adjudged guilty of high treason.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said, that having seen the motion
as originally framed, it had not been his intention to offer
soy observations, but merely to move, as an amendment,
that an humble address be presented to her Majesty for the
pardon ef Mr. O'Brien ; but, having learned from the rela-
tives of that gentleman that it would be more prudent to
allow the question to remain in the hands of her Majesty's
governasent—(bear, hear)—he should abstain from taking
any further pert in the proceedings. (Hear, hear.) The
motion was then put and agreed to.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.
The house resolved itself into committee on this bill.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL observed that he saw strangers in
the gallery, and strangers were ordered to withdraw.
During our exclusion we were informed by the messenger
that the committee divided on the question of leaving out,
in the let clause, the words " and that I do not believe,"
the words being introductory to the following—" that the
Pope of Rome, or any other foreign prince, prolate, person,
state, or p itentate bath, or ought to have, any temporal or
civil jurisdiction, authority, or power, within this realm."
For the words
Against

The words were accordingly struck out.
The gallery wee opened at 10 minutes after (flight.
The house was still in committee, and the 6th clause ap-
peared to be under discussion.
After a few words from Mr. Law and Lord J. Rusextt,
having reference to something that had gone before,
An amendment, which had been proposed by Mr. HENRY
DRUMMOND, was negatived.
Clause 5 was then 'greed to.
On clause 6, " Act not to extend te Roman catholic,, nor
to affect 10. G. IV , c. 7",
Mr. M'CULLAGH proposed the omission of the clause.
The effect of such omis-ion would be that catholic, and
protestants would, in future, take the same oath. He
said, as the committee had negatived the former propo-
sitions, he was fortified in hie conviction of the impor-
tance of giving equal rights to all. As the bill stood,
every man, churchman, dissenter, or jew, got relief by
it, except the catholic ; and he was certain the public
opinion was against the exception being continued. He
concluded by moving that clause 6 be omitted, in order
that catholic incubus of b3th houses of parliament should
be placed, in future, upon the same footing, in this respect,
with their fellow-members of all other persuasions. (Hear.)
Mr. W. FAGAN wished to state, as a Roman catholic,
speaking the sentiments of his brethren, that it was most
humiliating and degrading to take the oath in its present
form, and it was doubly so after the proceedings that had
taken place in the earlier discussions of that evening. He
could not forget the taunt which had been directed arainst
him by the hon. member for Warwickshire, in the discus-
sion on ministers' money, of having forgotten the oath he
had taken. Without doing anything to injure the protes-
tant religion, he was confident he might take steps to lessen
the temporalities of that church, and actually confer a benefit
en the religion. (Hear, hear.) If he thought that the bill
would be endangered by the proposition now made, he would
not support it; but he did not believe that such would be the
effect.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL had no doubt that the amendment
had been brought forward with the best intentions. But he
was satisfied that the oath did not impose the restrictions
which some imagined; and such being his conscientious
view, he should act accordingly.
Mr. NEWDEGATE begged to all the attention of the
Moose le the fact that the bon. gentleman who had just
set down revived the debate at the commencement of which
be moved that strangers should withdraw, and referred to
the speeches of the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman
of which he had given a falsified risen'. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL.—I deny that it is false.
Mr. NEWDEGATE.—WeII, then, • one-sided risunse.
The hon. gentleman had moved the exclusion of those
by whom the public were usually informed of what took
Owe in that house, end, having done that, he afterwards
get up and gave a one-sided risussi of what had taken
place during that exclusion. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL said he did not mean te continue
the discussion, but he regretted the exclusion of the public
from the house. He thought the rule of the house which
excluded strangers • •useful one, and he hoped it would never
be abrogated. lie never knew the rule to be enforced hut
once before duriog 12 years, and he regretted that it
was enforced on this occasion particularly, because the
public would not, in consequence of it, have as opportunity
of reading a debate which was most useful and favourable to
the opinions which he held on this subject.
Mr. SPOONER thought that when it was said that this
was only a step towards the r:peel of the Roman catholic
oath, it was an argument for those who opposed the measure.
lie considered it would be a violation of the eonstitution to
to do anything with that oath.
Lord J. RUSSELL was glad to find that the hon. gentle-
man, who was • laudalor tempOris acti, declaring that the
act of 1829, which his said was a violation of the constitution,
was now a part of the constitution. (Laughter.) With re
gard to the proposition of the hen. gentleman (Mr. M.Cul-
lagh), he had only to say, that whilst he wished to make
the oath more simple, he did not wish by doing so to raise
any fresh objections against the bill now before the house.
The bon gentleman pointed out objections to the Roman
catholic oath. the present state of the oath at all events
admitted the Roman catholic,, but it did not admit the Jews.
He did not undertake to defend the various provisions of the
oath. (Hear, hear.) That was no part of his duty; but, as
he did not wish to rai-e new objections against the practical
object be had in view, he must vote against the proposition
of the hos. gentleman.
Mr. P. WOOD said there were such political and yell-
sious objections to the oath taken by Roman catholic' that
he would vote for the omission of the claws.
The committee then divided—
For the clause
Againstit 64-49
The clause was weed to.
The house resumed. Report to be received on Monday.
PASSENGERS BILL.
This bill went through committee.
DEFECTS IN LEASES BILL.
On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GENERAL this bill
was committed pro forma. amendments introduced, and the
bill ordered to be recommitted on Thursday week.
RAILWAYS.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR, is consequence of communications
with persons interested in the question of railways, post-
poned hie motion for the present for a committee to inquire
into the transactions connected with the several railways in
the United Kingdom, with a view of satisfying the share-
holders is to the application of ths funds ; but if government
did not bring forward the question he should.
The other orders ot tin day were disposed of, and the
house adjourned at a quarter before 10 o'clock.

SOUTH Ye
tisAEV.—The late flee and oppor-
tune weather in h geisi,hpsur)sood has been of great ad-
vantage to the fanners. T agricultural operations have in
consequence been permeated with briskly. The oshow of
blossom is remarkably good.