The Express.
London, England, 1849-05-15 00:00:00

bend the speech of the hoe. and lensed geatlemu with that
Wks which be probably szpected they would do. (" Hear,
bur," and laughter.) It did not appear t r him (Lord J.
Sateell) that the hoe. end leased gentleman had entered at
all into the subject of debate, or that his speech had any re-
le uses to the bill before the fosse ; it was rather • striag
of reillatioes—a rt of moral IISIOO addressed to them cm
ego sateen of kith distress sad Irish pros (Hear.)
The his. sad learned geotlemsa's sgsgaigg kin a
the (ebb of the Frew" hose, which, having bees truss up
gag dual for a bog time, soddenly became thawed, sad
gave krtb the most subdions made. (L- sad laughter.) He
one glad le bear them woad. mina ia that how; best ear
sole be would rather the hoe. and leersed gentleman had
ihiess some theme that had mot been is repeatedly
use leer se the este they wen new diseseekg. (Heir
Ism) He ornately should aot tallow the hos. sad horned
by saterlog late say defense of the Irish
lead-
tter ea were • suthiest member of prisms seasected
with that body, both in that sad the other boom of pulia
goons, to undertake that deny. (Hier.) Bet with re-
LIR to the Istroarers of belied, he must say that
thought the hon. and learned genthenga big
oat a very usjust reflection so them when he
egg that either from the fault of the goweramest,
sr from some other circumstance, they were uawilliag to
work sr d to depend for their sub/ogees es their own
gunnies and their own indoor". (Hear, hear.) He
believed in essay districts they were cab, toe impatient le
Obtain work even at the smallest rennuteration—a IFINOSSOfe•
you that would scarcely procure for theas the barest subs&
tome. In soma places he underreed the labsterere were
molls, sod anxious to work for thek bed may, end he
ethers men with families to rapist were say be glad to
Mons fur twopeace • day. (Hear, bear.) ners, k
wee Doe just to ley that the Irish Woven /eyebolt any
Woe earn as that which had bore read to them hy the boo.
ead leveed gentleman to induce the to em brou any
mesas by which they might Orals, in exchange kr tide
lather. not • tiring, bat IMO subsistence. (Hear, hear)
The bill before **lowa proposed that a certain seas should
be *deemed for the purposes of drainage—suit draissge to
e assomplobed partly by the proprietors and occupiers
liellassives, end partly, where the, drainage was of • more
offsmeivs character, by the union of several ton
lab pep .cation, as it appeared to him, neemmsmdsd itself
rice grounds—tint, the whole of the mossy so admired
IND Ve be expended in laboar—(hr hear); ia Ike weed
gbee, It wee likely to improve the~soil, std I
to toe? the
meton of human food from the land ; and, thirdly, that
. in a position to give to the hon. gentleman and Ida
theilkeents the most ea isfactory proofs that there was
ow, prospect of the sums so advanced being folly repaid,
prthpal and, interest. (Hear, bear.) The hem member for
Waterford bad said truly that in that country and in
lend. within within the last 20 or 30 yews, large MISS had bawl
mimmeed foe ireful purposes of a similar character—which
seam had bent rejoice—and by means of which many field.
whisk were parkway if little comparative vale* were now
posing wheat and other crops in the meet luxurious pro-
tean ; and large tracts of land had been brought into an
impaved rate of cultivation, by the draining and other im-
provements a hith the =envy so borrowed from the Eiche-
r:isle:l carried out. Such having been the result in
and Scotland, he did not think they would
be adopting a just or a wholesome principle in
sates that the mile Wenn ought not, lacier present
dramstances, to be applied to Ireland. (Hear.) The hon.
gentleman who last spoke had said that they were driving
• bargain with the Irish people that any Jew would be glad
le make: that observation reminded him that there was
smother gentile to be brought before the house that even-
tag—(" beer," and • laugh)—which he hoped would not be
postposed I miter than was absolutely necessary. (Heer.)
HORSMAN contended that the poverty and distress
whisk behead was suffering was to • great extent the resoli
of Itaglish legial4ion ; and if we were to contribute to her
present necessities even much mere liberally than during
the last three lean, we should not compensate
low for the injustices which our bad government bed heaped
s her. He complained of the made by which mi-
srs sought to relieve Irish distress—by means of these
continued grants of public money, unaccompanied by com-
prehensive measures of permanent improvement; and en.
pasted the charge he bad preferred on • previous evening,
that they had neglected the ati.plications of the poor law
inspectots for immediate relief, though they were told it
we necessary, to save thousands from dying of starmion.
la some instances, where 10.0001. had been demanded,
4,0001. only had ban sent ; in others, no notice whatever
had been tskes of the applications: ind the consequence
was, that numbers were drag daily for want of feed. This,
which was proved by the papers before the honer, was dfs
graceful to the country in the floe of Europe; and in his
opinion a heavy responsibility rested on those to whose neg-
lect such lamentable consequences were owing.
Sir 0. GREY reensikei that the boa. gentleman who
had just sat down first complained of the system of grants,
sad then that Oda government had notaent sixpences to relieve
the distress which existed in the eminent part of Intend.
With regard to the first charge, under the circumstances in
which some of the onion' in Ireland were placed, ministers
had thought it necensty (though in this they sight have
differed from the hon. gentleman) to appeal to parliament, to
place in their hands • limited sum to enable them to mitt
gate the d stress existing in those unions. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the second charge—their having received
repeated applications for assistance, and not sending six
peace to relieve the distress of these districts, and to
save the people from starving, he must tell the hon.
putleman now, as he had told him Fri-
ay lest, that when ha made that chargeea
be
spoke in utter ignorance of the feets—(hear, beer)—
fsg be could not suppose that were It not so be would per
ibt such misrepresentations, anxious as he might be to
thew so the government all the respond y. Having felt
it msrswry to say so much as to the two charges which the
hon. gentleman had brought against the government, he
would not go into the question of the bill
before the house, which had been already discuseed,
but he biped these few observations would satisfy the house
that the government had pursued • right course with mud
to the distribution of the money in Ireland. (Hear.)
Mr. KEOGH hoped that as the hon. member for Sheffield
(Mr. Roebuck) bad alluded to him during his abenes, he
would be excused for occupying the attention of the house for a
moment. (Rear, hear.) Though he had not the pleasure
of bearing that hon. member, he had had the opportunity et
hearing the noble lord at the head of the government, and
he understood that the hon. member for Sheffield, after his
usual cast um, lad indulged himself and • portion of the
house by abusing every member from Ireland every
person is that country, from the landlord down to
the humblest peasant. (Hear ben.) The honourable
reember bad done him the' favour to notice the
debate which occurred in the house upon the last
sight; he had done so in his (Mr. Keogh's) absents. He
now told the hon. gentleman that he was far from thinking
that he represented the taloas of his English countrymen
out of dues as regarded the Irish people. So far from think-
ing so, he remembered with gratitude the noble generosity
with which the people of this country had come forward in
the last two sous to relieve the diabetes of Ireland. The
country would be able to discriminate between what ought
to be the honest indignation of • patriotic senator, and the
bilious acerbity of • epit,ful self-tormentor. (Roan of
laughter, and bed assn.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded
the horns of what his noble friend at the head of the govern
sent had said, that he would not defend the Irish landlords,
because he felt that to be unnecessary, seeing that he had
admitted ea former occasions that many Irish landlords were
deserving of the almost credit for the exertions Um had
made. (Hear.)
After some remarks from Col. Downs and Mr. Moose,
The house went into committee OS the bill ; Mr. Beth AL
in the chair.
Os the Bret clause beir g read,
Mr. HORSHAM said that 900,0001. bad been already al-
located, and he wished to know whether there war to be
say limit to the time during which the sum now proposed
to be 'detested was to be expended. His objection
to the season was this: he did not objet to loans.
bat he did to the loans and advances greedy made
sot haviage hobeen well applied : and between him
and the t n. gentleman the Seereary of State
there existe • great difference of opinion on this subject.
He (Mr. lionseas) had previously spoken from the papers
laid on the table of the house, and yet he had been accused
of speaking la imamate. It wee easy to deal in hard words
when truths were sot met with arguments. He was sorry
to put the right ben. gentleman oat of temper, but he could
not, however disagreeable it might be, forbear from elating
what he believed to be important. (Hear, hear.) Now,
one of the documents from which he quoted was signed by
Mr. Nash, who,writiag to the viee guardians, said that " there
wee not • shilling at the grant left to feed 20,000 people,
and that if money did not come from some serum
the deaths, by thousands, from stanatioo in the union wets
jne,it.tde." Again, in •• subsequent letter, it was add that
" the people were without food during Friday, Saturday, and
Sunday, ' and it ended by saying that " the deaths In vs.
SOW parts of the union were daily inereseino, and that for
the most part they arose from want and exposers."
Sir 0. GREY said it was most irregular to open • long
debate of this nature in committect, particularly as the hon.
gentleman was not stating fate, but was drawing on his
mention and making charges against the germ-
mint which were utterly unfounded. (Hear.) The
charge was, that the government were dispensthe
gems and doing hum instead of good. His (Sir
G. Grey's) answer was, that they had applie I the
funds pieced at their disposal by parliament in the way they
thought best for the relief of destitution—that they had
done what the hon. gentleman said they had not done—that
they had acceded the 50,0001. by 26,0001., and that they
had reposed an advance of 100,0001., against which the
kw. gentleman had weed, though he now turned round and
clisrpdthe govereseut with mg's:dilute. (How)
Mr. HORSILAN said that if he had boss
the right hon. gentleman was irregular also. Ho big=
accused of gross minergesentation, although be had not
shafted a single word beyond what he had lowed in
she Pipers on the table. If the 50,0001. wee not
tut*, government ought to have asked for eon
sissy, and if they had sot sated foe more, and
deaths now ensued, a heavy resposilbility must rest
Wu them. The people of Ragland would have gine
more ; it was a shameful calumny on that people to say that
they woild
are
money trimve life .• and be repelled it as •
edemay epos their generosty and Chrislimity. (Mom)
lb. ROEBUCK said that some explanation on his pot
Ina araniary. The noble lord at the head of the goyim.
IMO lademissed very good humour, and he bad as shim
ties is his bke about the hers, although it weenie las bass
of Phil. Bat the noble lord had not answered ifs amp—
that three yews ago there was distress in losised ; that
Primmest knew the earns of it, and were sealed upon to
Pima the recurrence of it' and that the distress arose oat
d babe wand by the fumbles Ware lithe polite. Now

1

he charted the noble lard with not having met that fuels"
with a bold and eonalerate set of inesesn s He
him with being frightened—tenified, he might any
hamar had no system; with being goateed by DO WO;
with baying listened to his own sense and sensibility eel
with haring immediately had romans to the lugs traithey
of England; and that, having had sash recourse he hadi kik
the people of Inked worse thee be aund them.
That was his thug% and that the noble Med
had sot answered. He did not charge the =hie
lord with having improperly applied the ODIUM Of
mosey already granted. As to the noble lord's linden' of
heart, his generosity, his perspicacity, sad his powers of fe
bate, he had nothing to m 7; but, without say asperity 41
manner, he alleged that the dilleallqr of the ease lead set
been met la the spirit of a sinesemes I Oaths eillieelly woe
praetor now than when it lint mem; *it every resseros
had bees reheated, and that the distress of Ireland was ma
relieved. He went farther, and said that the noble lord lary
hie grants did mischief to the people of Ireland, for he had
gives rise to habits which he would find it difficult to check.
Where there wee a want of thrift before there wu a double
want of thrift now ; and when he was told that these cond.
tions had aothing to do with the bill be-
ach the home, ha wakened that he could not
undimmed the meaning of the noble lord's objection.
Oa the part Mike English people, he must say that it was
sot he the amount they eared, but that the government in
applyiee it had done mischief. Bit by bit legislation might
do fur England ; but here was ten or twstve mullions of
money which the government employed all in one year.
He maistained that if prom rly applied the people of Ireland
sight with that ems have been set to work profitably upon
their own fertile soil. But instead of that, the government
bad flung it away in every possible baconsiderate
He asked, ought not the educated holy of Irishmen to stand
forward in their own country and set the example of virtue
in the application of that mitred fund, instead of putting
their baad.into it for their ewe purposes' (Cries of " Oh.")
Lord J. RUSSELL said that, whim be remarked that
the hoe. gestlemaa's spat* had not any lamediate
refer-
ence to this bill, he spoke of it as being applicable to the
guava' messesia for Ireland; and, having already had
many dimmest:ma ea those .enures, he felt that he should
hardly obtain a bearing if he were spin to state what those
measures had bees, bow they had been implied, and what
were their general results. Bat the hos. gentleman again
repeated his
qamatieeand forged him somewhat into the
eonsideratiou of at, He observed regarling that hon. gen-
tleman, end also every Irish member who attacked the go-
vernment, that he very moth miscalculated the nature of
the evil whoa he Weed why there should still be so mush
poverty in Ireland. The hon. gentleman alto ether sake
rated the magnitude of the calamity. Whether the lank
lords' mode of giving leases ; whethee the farmers' mode of
paying for labour by a patch of land, aid not money ; whe-
ther the labourers did well for their own interest in encou-
raging early marriages ; whether these things had or lied
not been, was not now matter for consideration. They all
knew they had been, and they knew also that there had bow
a stoppage put to them by the decree of providence be the
form of • calamity than which nothing could be greater.
There was an immense population of three or four milieus
living by and dependent on the soil. When the potato failed
they were red likely to obtain more employment: on the
contrary, lees. When the calamity first &per red, the right
hon. gentleman then at the head of the government pro.
nosed a total repeal of the corn laws; and, he (Lord J.
Russell) thought, wisely. He agreed with the bon. gentle
man se to the good reunite of that measure as far as the great
body of the people were concerned. But it was not a
remedy for the great part of the evil which afflicted Ireland.
It we no relief to those who had only the production of
the soil to look to, as prices are diminished,
not raised. (Hear, hear.) Another year of famine
appeared to be approaching, and the government
undertook a immure which had been adopted in 1822, and
which wss adopted in the beginning of 1848, not, os the ho'
gentlemen represented it, a grant of ten millions to p
the people of Ireland from starving, but to be carefully and
usefully distributed through those local bodies which the
best authorities in Ireland considered as the most likely to
use it well,—the advance being made upon the creJit of
some raised in the district. In 1822 a similar measure had
been adopted, but in 1846 and beginning of 1817 the
calamity was so overwhelming, that it produced C0134t•
quinces far exceeding is importance any slender measure of
former years. He woe not blaming the persons o-nneeted
with that bill ; but the effect was that them bodies, alarmed
perhaps at the prospects of suffering around them, caused
immense presentments to be made, and the Board of
Works were called upon to undertake gigantic works.
It was true that they were accompanied with great
abuses, arising, net from the application of vast
sums of money, but from the gradual increase of the evil
—from the prospect of starvation that presented itself on all
sides, unless employment won given, and unless there was
a concurrence in those boards in voting large sums for the
purpose of the works. He did not deny that there might
have bees a better application of the nosey ; but it was
impossible for any government to lay what exact amount of
cod was deadens% what exact number of pencil applying
for assistance were destitute, in what manner 04 sum placed
at the dispose) of these local boards would be asked for, or
to whet estent the mode of applicatios might be carried. He
Lord J. Russells could not imagine any magical remedy or plan
so omnipotent as to prevent, in a cenetry whom main subsis-
tence had been blighted and destroyed for • great part of
~011 r snegmeive vein, increased distress in the fourth year of
the calamity. (Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly he believed that
this dispensation had been intended for the good of Ireland.
He believed that the social state of that country, which had
been so long matter of lamentation, and which was described
by the poor law commission of 1833 es one which must ex-
cite the pity of every one—he believed that it would, in the
end, be improved by the calamity which had of late years
befallen it. That great suffering must have been endured
was necessary to that end. If the government had in sue
manner alleviated chaste sufferings, be would be contented
with that consolation; but if they could go be-
yond that, and pave the way for a better order
of Hasty; if they could, by measures not clinical
in one year, but bit by bit—measures aimed at dif-
ferent evils, and carried into effect by various machinery—it
by such measures they could at length improve the social
state, he certainly should be proud of the result. (Hear,
hear.) He certainly thought that whatever re-
each.* might have been justly east upon Irish
proprieeors in former times, the great majority of that
class were now only anxious to find the means by which they
could improve the country and provide for the subsist-
ent* of those around them. He trusted that those
who did not show that anxiety, and had done
nothing for the country daring the last three years,
would follow the 'sample of the majority. However it might
please some gentlemen in that house to lay all the blame en
the government, and others who id there ought to be do-
mestic legislation for Ireland, to lay the blame on the imps
rid parliament, his (Lord J. Russell's) idea was, bad been,
and ever would be, that sakes there was harmony amongst
the various clasessoteless religious bitterness was aasusged,
and the 'amity so often prevailing between landlord and
tenant give place to a good understanding—unless all classes
united, the highest with the humblest, in endeavouring to
elevate the country—it was in vain for the government to
propose measures to parliament, or parliament to adopt them,
as miserable failure must be their inevitable result. But he
believed that that commercial jealousy which bad so Inns
indeed England to withhold from Ireland so muck means of
prosperity was now at an end. He believed that that poli-
tical ascendancy which during the last century made the go,
Tuning party in Ireland look only to the support of the mino-
rity, hsd, with its chain of laws, ceased to exist. He
believed that them circumstances would in time, and by the
°maim of natural causes, finally have this effect. He did
believe that we should at length see, and that our children
would see still more clearly, that the ems of Ireland was not
tropeleis ;shat the people of Ireland. who were reproached
for idleness and improvidence, had been beret by adverse
circumstances; and that they were as fit for labour, and as
greatly endowed with all thew physical and m .ral qualities
which lead to eminence, and ends them fit to bear the rule
of empire, as aoy people in the world. (Hear, hear.)
Col. DUNNE said that he would give no answer
to the foul charge of the hos. member for Sheffield,
that Irish landlords had put their hands into the
sacred fund for the relief of the poor, simply because
hie answer would not be parliamentary.
Mr. V. SMITH asked whether the 600,0001. now to be
voted would be applied to the immediate employment of la-
bour, or would, as had been the case with former advances,
be spread over several years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the 900.0001., the remaining portion of the 1,600,0001. set
yet issued, would not be available for the employment a labour
this year. But it was obvious that who. a work was once
commenced, it went on mach hang than at the begin-
ning ; the great difficulty was in the beginning. Alter
the first instilment was exploded, the mooed and tuba-
quent ones went much more rapidly. With regard to the
300,0001., be did not see how it was poesible to apply it in a
way different from that in which former epproprianose for the
same purpose had been applied. He could not compel gentlemen
to drain their land faster than it was ordinarily drained, nor
to expend the whole of the 300,0001. in one year
were he to do so, they would come to him next p, yea arguing
that, as they bad given them the means for beginning, they
mast be enabled to go on. The whole would bat required to
be spent within a given time, but not in the first year.
Mita regard to the sum for arterial drainer, the whole of
that was to be expended In ens year.
Mr. V. SMITH said that if he understood the right hem.
baronet correctly the whole of the 300,0001. would not be
applied this year, but only about 100,0001.
Mr. BORMAN said he found it stated in the evidence
that some proprietors had obtained these advances without
Intending to use the money. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had said the other night that that money was allocated,
sot expended, and that he had no further power over it.
Now, if there was a certain number of propriet in who had
taken this money, and were waiting to me how things turned
out before they commenced their improvemenes, be wished
to know if the house had not the power either to make them
taped it within a certain time, or repay the advance, that
the Nosey might be lent to ahem, who would make, good
(Star, hear.) There certainly ought to be some
limitation of time, as in railway bills.
The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUEIL—The an-
swer to that is, simply, that what the hon. gentleman says
ought to be done has been done. I stated the other evening
that a great part of the 300,0001. had been edvaneed in that

way.
Mr. —Still that is sot the gossips. Have
those poileseos tire power of keepiog the money back u
loug as they like?
The CHANCELLOR of the RICHEQUER,—The,
have sot that power. I lased eireelar sot long ego,
forming those gentlemen whom laichoose to go os spend-
ing the mosey, that I should t them any more.
Mr. OSBORNE )clued of the desultory nature of the
distaadas, end said that Waldo to pest gnats was sot