The Express.
London, England, 1848-07-07 00:00:00

the men Ty. Are you afraid of the people being seiversa to
monarchical institutions? We constantly hear that the
queen sits enthroned in the hearts of her suljects. (Hess,
hear.) I have no such fears. I will tell you what I think
the extension of the franchise will do. I seek no change in
OW present tom of government. I say, once for all, Ood
forbid that any change should take place in our form
of government. (Hear, hear.) If it shoed be changed
from the monarchical form,
_I hope it may happen
when I sin not here to witness it, because, if it does come, I
am lure that the generation which will (Hear, by it will not
be the genera°, which achieves it. hear.) I be-
lieve that tee pt ogle do not want such change, nor do I
think that if they tithe the suffrage, with the wide t xtensieu
of which I speak, y would altogether or evr n greatly
change the claw of men from whom they choose their tepee-
sentattres. (Hear, hear.) Ido not think they need make
any change in that respect. They would prnbably choose
them from the easier and wealthier classes, as they do cow ;
but tel sou what would be the result. I believe that the
change propos. d by my hen. friend would bring the legislative
and loth, pa the executive pewee more in harmony with the
wants and wises of the pes.ple than they are at present.
I believe that the people' I mean those who would enjoy
house .old suffrage, would advocate a severe economy in the
gevermat tit. I ask, what are the two things which the wisest
politic 1 economists and the greatest philosophers, when con-
sidering tee iisngers of the state, would describe as the
pressing necessity of the d ? Would it not be a great re-
terachmeni hi the expenditure of the country, and a more
equitable app ,rtionment of the national taxation? (Hear,
heart Be teat 1 mean that you should have the texation
largely ieruev d from toe ittilirect source. trim which it is at
present levied—(heat, hearl—and me largely im.
posed on restored property. (11.1 r, hear.) That, in
icy opinion, is one of the greet wants of the
day, and ,OP et the things which I think the peop:e would
accompush -he moment they obtained till frit cht.e. The
very instinct to; seltishneci would induce th:m to do so, and
it is the very thing which is most wanted for the safety of
the country. Now do not let any one misapprehend me.
I de net mean to say that all the taxes should he levied upon
property I would do no injustice to any one. I shoeld
wash to relieve the taxation on consumable at ti-les, and to
remove the ol srructiona of the customs and excise. I would
relieve the duties on teas, wines, and odor important
articles, and above all things r. move every excieem •ri
from the lace of the land. This is what 1 beli:ve the
selfish instincts of the people, it heir power was once
flatly brought to bear on this house, would accomplish, and
these are the objects which it is most dr eirable to have se-
tromplolied in this counuy. (Hear, hear.) Well, then,
where is the danger of giving the people their fur suere ot
political power ? We shall be told, as I have been told by
the boa and learned gentleman below ,ta you would
not settle the question by couceding holme m heeh lt suilrage. I
do not think y ei would, I do not think you would settle any
question by legislation in this house. In the year 18/8 no-
body CON tell what another generation or anothr
lianient may de; but will any one tell me the,
Ifyou Mehl le within the franchise three or four
millions of people it•stead of seven or eie et hundred thousand
you will nut have gr atly conciliated the people, and have
greatly sir ng hene I your instoutioes a:ainst whatever dis-
ellecimi may arise from those who remain without them.
Neither in my of mion would the household test render the
people more discontented than they are now. The hon. and
learned member for Readieg dwelt on the household test as
if it w. re a tt st of property, and in the next breath, with
singular Ml laity, he taxed us with seeking to exclude men
of property teem the tranchise. (lcer, hear.) It is your
present t.st wlaA is a test of pt nperty, inasmuch as you say
that a man must pay 101. of annual rent, or else have no
vote. In the other case, we say that it a man pays
poor rates he shall be entitled to vote, but that is
not an exclusion on the ground of property, be-
cause
it will practically exclude many rich mica living
about in !edgier, and who may have neglected to obtain
the 40a. freehold. Our scheme would exclude them while it
would admit the poor tenant. There has been something
said es to the way to which electoral districts should be made
eat. I come to that now, altnouph it does not come next in
PUCCPUi in, hut the h in. and learned gentlem in expended a
great deal of his eloqueuce upon that point. When you ap-
proach this swim. ettermi .ed to deal with it in the cavilling
spirit of a special pleader, grilled rather by mere
words than by a broad view of its meaning, you
may very 'wily raise prejudices against it. But
as I understand my hon. triend the member for
Montrose, he wishes for a fair apportionment of tte repress a-
tation tat the people. He does nut go for perallelograms or
aquaria, to eeparate people unnecessarily frusa their neigh-
bours. 1 qui e agree wah him that it is not nee wary to do
so. Any me who honestly wishes a fair apportionment may
effect it without any violence or disruption. ( titer.) I
must say th ,t I considu this questi a of the apportionment
of menah PP by tar the mos. impartant question. (Hear,
hear.) When you talk to me of fraachists, and ask me whe-
ther I will nave a man vote at twenty-one years of age, or
require a tie or twelve mouthe'hounhuldr.sidenee, it appears
to me that there is no principle oa which I can fall back to
enable me te give a right answer to the question. The hon.
and learned sr saber says that on the question of the suffrage
Ido not steed oat natural right at all. I know of no na-
tural right. I have to vote for members of parliament. I
have a legal ri.tht, of which six-sevenths of my fellow-citi
sena are deprivsd, and I fuel a difficulty in proving that they
should not hove it. (Hear, hear.) Ido not claim a natural
right ; anti if I wished to cavil about universal suffrage I
should amuse myself as I once did with s m in who was draw-
ing up the charter. He asked me to support the great principle,
and I to return asked him why he excluded women who paid
income tax, and might be culled on to serve as overseers of
the pear ? He said, " I quite agree with you, and I was one
of those who were outvoted on the question of giving women
the franchise." I then raid, " You can understand me now
when I tt ll you that, like yourself on the question of the
women, I giv.- up prine.ple for the sake of expediency." But
when 1 advert to the re.appartionment of members, then I
have a prineip.e to deal with. I say that wh never fran-
chise you adopt the re-apportionment should take place
on some pri, ciple. What principle then are you to select ?
I will not take the principle of population, as I do
not advocate universal suffrage, but I wt.' take the ground of
properly. Bow have you apporti •ned your representati
in
accurtliug to property? We think the melte eat momerous,
that when you look into it, there is not a man in this house,
whatever his opinion may be, who will nut say that there is a
necessity for altering she present system. Oa the last lama.
non on ainch • his subject was discussed the h.m. member
for Bucks alluded in playful terms to the representation
of
Manchester and Buckinghamshire, and was shocked
at the idea of NI tnche-ster having seven representatives.
Now I must frankly say, judging of the men they have sent
from Martelnater, I should not only wish to sea seven but
seven times seven such men coming into this house. (Hear,
hear.) But I want to know on what principle the hnn.
member :or Bucks is going to apportion the members of this
house. I will take his own favourite county, Buckingham,
and compare it wi h Manchester. The borough of Man-
chester is rated at en annual rental, for the relief of the poor,
of upwards of 1.100,0101., while the assessment of Buckine,-
hamshire is 764 001. I gay nothing of the popu
lation although I might put down Buckinehamohire
at 170,000, and Maichester at 240,000 but I couliee my sell
to prop rty. Buckinghemshire has eleven while Munches-
ter has only two members. (Hear, hear.) Now, bearing in
mind that the a seasment for the poor in hlanchedtr does
not include the value of machinery—l grant that the annual
value of laid may represent a higher amount—but bearing
in mind that in Manchester neither machiarry r reedited
capital is nickeled in the rating, am I not justified in
complaining ;het hlanchtster, with el nifile the property,
has only rwo rwmbers while Buckinghamshire has
eleven ? (Hear, hear.) And will the labourer in Bucks
earning fr• m tine to ten shillings a week bear comparieen
for a mom. ta with the skilled mechanic, earning double
that sum ? I go further, this is not a question between
Buckirgharn-and Manchester. If it were, I might ark why
you should give mote piratical power to toe lower classes
than to the middle and intelligent. If the latter had
it, it might in some sort mitigate the evil.
But when 1 t ton° to look into the representation of the hon.
=crater for Buckingham's darling county, I find that it
is not the representation of the middle or lower classes,
but that est, n as to the eight borough members, they arc so
apportioned as to give the power of returning them to cc rtain
landowners, who sent their nominees to parliament ,• and
when I show you that there is not one out of the whole 11
members returned by popular elate n, I risk what does it
amount to (Heir, hear.) I will undertake to show
you th t three individuals in the county of
Buckingham n ,minate the majority of its mem-
bers, and It can name them if I am called upon to do so.
(llear ) And 1 ask what does such a system account to 1
Why it amounts to this, th • t not Beckinghamshire, but two
or three riot land ia Buckinghamshire, have the
power of sending mownersembers here to tax the people of Man-
chester. Hear ) Why is Manchester, with its mer-
chants and it, manuf.cturers, trading to and accumula-
ting wesith I ?Om all parts of the globe —why are they to
be deprive,' of their fair share in the representation of the
country, simelseesecau.e they live in Manchester I—and when
so deprte, it, why are they to be mocked and jeered at in this
house, because they demand what they have a right
to, and which they would not be it the people
had ht ir fair share in the representation of the
country, instead of the house being in a great measure filled
by the nominees of a few wealthy landowners? (Hear, hear.)
Take the case of the West Riding of Yorkshire. There is
not a man here, lam sure, who will not ewe nt to the
proposition which convicts us with a fair apportionment of
the repreeeitetion, when he hears the facts. It is impossible
but he must do no. (Hear, hear.) Now I treat thetas a
distinct qu-etiun. I treat this as a gut stion of principle, and
by that principle I stand—and you cannot resist it—tor it
would be dike contrary to justice and common sense to do
so. The population of the West Riling was 1,154,000,
that of Wiltshire wets 250,000. The West Riding of Yerk-
shire is assessed to the poor-rate at 3,576,0001. as the annual
rental. Wiltshire is assessed at an wand rental of 243,0001.,
or about one-thirteenth of that of the West Riding ; yet each
returns eighteen members. (Hear, hear.) But when Igo
into Wiltshire I find six of the boroughs there, according to
" Dodd's Parliamentary Companion," openly, notoriously,
and avow. dly under the influence of certain patrons who
nominate the members. (Hear, hear.) And why are the
people of the West Riding not to have the same power
in the representation of the country in eroportion
to their property and their numbers as those of
Wiltshire ? (Hear.) According to a plan I have seen laid
down it would appear that if the representation was rattly
apportioned, the West Riding of Yorkshire would return 30
member., when it returns tow only 18. Bat is there any
reason why we should conclude that our legislation would be
worse because -he West Riding had 12 more representatives,
or because some of those smaller boroughs to which I have
alluded had less—(hear, hear)—would it be any disadvan•
tags to the legislation of the country ? (Hear.) I say it is
just that such a change should be made, and I say
further tbat representation must be more fairly and
equally nppertionid. (Cheers.) The question is
not merely between the people of Wilts sod thole

of the West Riding of Teetddre—it Is not whether the one
should have more power ht the representation of the country
or the other less, because the people of Wilts have not now
the power. (Hear, hear.) Our object is to give more power
in both uses—(hear, hear)—and to provide that whatever
the number of representatives each shall have, the repre-
sentation shall be based en population and property.
(Heir, hear.) We say to each, you shall have yeur feir
share, and what you have shall be real ; your voice shall no
longer be swamped by such little boroughs as Great Marlow
and other similar placer., where one or two gentlemen send
several members to parliament, and call that popular elecloo.
We ray you shall be protected by the ballot, and your cou-
stituency shall no longer be open to thew improper influences
Ito which it is now subject. (Hear, hear.) Something has
been said as to Middlesex—that county has been very appro.
riately referred to by the hon. member for Middlesex (Mr.
Osborne). I find that Moldlescx is assessed to the poor rates
ow
an annual value of 7.5a4 0001. Dureetshire is assessed
en an annual value of :00,0001. But each has 14 members
—(hear, bear)—though the first has an annual rental et
7,000,0)01. and odd, and the other ot only 700,0001.—the
amount of money collected for the relief o. the poor
BR Middlesex bring as large within 101. SR the whole va!tie
I athe property assessed in Dorsetshire, and yet both hove lie
same number of reeresentatives. (Hear, hear.) I well say
nothing of Lsmbetn or hlarylehone, with an assessment of
1,060.000(.,whieh is mon than two of your counties returning
13 membe rs; but will Rey one till me that the metropolis C.
not entitled to be fairly represented. according to its pro-
perty ? The noble lord, on a former occasion, intimated
▪ me doubts as to giving as 1 age a number o' representatives
to the metropolis as it weula be eon i led to under a fair system
of representation apportioned according to property and po-
pulation. I was surprised to hear that statement tram tile
noble lord, Ile might have quoted 81 a proof that the people
of London may be solely trust,d with a larger franchis,, to
the lull ex'ent of its lair pro:.oetion, the fact that he himself
was returned by hops hold suffrage. (Heim, hear) \Vnere
then ie the dang, r of giving the metropolis its fad share of
political power I h eve ohs reed that in Austria in
apportioning members under the new constitution it WWI
prop oyel to give to Vienna a I erger number of repreweetwive.
th in its share according to its population and property. on the
ground that, as f eing the metropolis of the empi e, it was
:setter able, from i.e great. r wealth and intelliAeuce, to emit-
cm the franchise properly. And, whatever may be said
to the eontrary, I maintain that large cities, and the metro-
polis especially, are better qualified to exercise the right of
voting than small towns and rural distriets, inasmuch as I
believe the people of this metropolis are not only the most
. catchy, but that they are the moat intelligent,
and I will add, the meet industrious and hardest
working people in Euros. Where, again I ash,
is the danger ? Honouretne gentlemen, woen we talk
of large constituencies having the power to return
more members, seen, to think it s• for tne purpose of bring-
, tog mobs together and placing the p ewer in their hand.; but
I think you make mobs at L-ondon elections by making your
constituencies too large. Those constituencies arc, for the
most part, as much too large as others are too small—
' t .ke, for exampie, the Tower Hamlets, with 'is constituency
lot 13,500, or F insbury, with lei 13,000 electors—but if you
take a tier apoortintiment of the metropolis and lay it oho
ice
I towns, apportioned according to its population, each to elect
one me .i.ber, they would make a be tier cho.ce of repre-
sentatives than any other part of the klegdom. I
do not say wo should have an increased number
ot representatives. I think we have quite as many now u
Iwe ought to have. (Hear, hear., But I mum° that
whether you give a greeter number of representatives or I
whether you continue the present number, you must give a
larger number to those concitueneies which ate d.:tenmeished
above others by their property and population, and this you
must take from those where there is now an undue number of
membe es in prop. rtioll to property. You comet dial esti*.
'acutely with the subject in any other wry. I have
now dealt with the tram:lase, and I will proceed to refer
to the ballot. by which I would guard its exer-
cise. Upon this point, however, I shall leave to dwell
but very bristly, inaaonueh so it stands at the head of those
questions most likely ti' be cirried. The ballot is at tbis
moment the question which is the stronge-t in the house,
and in the c!,•uutry, particularly with the farm& re and middle
easser. (Hear, hear, and oh.) It is not farmers, I am
sure, who say "Oh." (A lauele) They arc landlords.
(hear, bear.) The farm-es are in favour ot the ballet, acid
everybody: who knows the re el sentiments of the fa. mu.
will tell you so. (Cheer., and "Oh I") lake Lincolnshire,
the greatest agricultural county in Eagiand : aro not th,
farmers in favour of the oaliot en Lincolnshire ? I say, then,
that question stands first, and will certainly and speedily be
carried. Why, the only argument which has been advanced
against it is the ridiculous one that it is un-English. (Hear.
hear.) But, so far from its being un-English, I will assert
that there is more voting by b .llot in England than in all
Europe besides. (Hear, bear.) We aro a country of insuranc-
so:Active railway companies, banking And other joint-stock
companies, literary institutions, popular societies, infirmaries
and hospitals, tell of which are governed on the popular prin-
ciple, and where the ballot is constantly brought into requi-
sition. (Hear.) And when we have men c ming here treat
from the Carlton, with the sound of the ballot-box still
ringing in their ear*, telling us that the ballot is un-Eagli-h
(hear)---and rhieldiog themselves from a passing frown from
some neighbour by employing such a sophisticated and ab-
surd argument, to prevent the tenant being rotected,
not hem the frown merely, but the vengeance, of his
1 enellord, I say it is downright hypocrisy. (Hear, hear.)
Then with regard to the duration ot parliament—soe per-
sons think one year preterable to the. e. Perhaps—mand I
throw this out merely as a suggestion—if you were to adopt
the system followed in municipal elections, and allow one-
third of the members elected to go out every year, the par-
liament being elected for three years, it would remove the
objecti rn on this head, and would afford the opportunity if
testing the feeling of the country, and at tine same time avoid
those shakes and convulsions whim all so much dread.
An I now, in conclusion, allow me to say a word on a subject
to whiet both the noble lord and the hon. ember tor
Bucks referred. You complain that there are leagues and
ammations cut of doors cn this subject. You c implain
of this, and nt the same time you congtatulate yourselves on
the great social advance* you have made: you glorify your-
selves that you have atolisbed the slave trade, and you exult
at your achievements towards the total abolition of the
punishment of death, forgetting that whatever you have
clone to break down stay remnant of barbarism, has been
done by associations of thus kind. And why is it ? Because
since Manchester cannot have its fair share in the repre-
sentation of the country, it is obliged to orgauise a league,
that its voice may he heard Omega the laud, and thus, by
indirect means, have its voice heard in parliament. (Hear..
Do you want to get rid of this system of astitatiou—do you
wish to deprive these leagues and awocia ions of ail p weer ?
Then you must bring this hone rn. re in harmony with pleb-
lie op nion—rhear, hear)—you mutt give the people the
meant of making themselves telt in this boos,. (Hear,
hear.) Are you afraid of losOur by it ?—why, the reform
yen have achieved, the reform to which I have alluded, are
your means of safety as they are your glory and your exulta-
tion at the present moment. (Hear, hear.) But is it nut a
must absurd anomaly to have a House of Commons repre-
senting by a fiction the feelings of the people, while, at the
same time, the people are compelled to organiet them-
selves into leagues and nuociations to compel the
House ot Commons to listen to their voice? (Hear.)
Take the most absurd of all illustrations going on at the
present moment—a league or associatien, a society formed in
Liverpool, called t " Nati ma' Conlederation," at the head
of which is the brother of the right bon. gentleman the
member for the University of Oxturd, Mr. Gladstone, a
gentleman of sufficiently conservative habits not to mix him-
self up with popular movements without great cause ; and
what, let me ask, is the objeet of that society ? To effect a
reform in our financial system, and accompli-h a reduction
of our national expenditure—the very thing for which this
house assembles—this house, which is, then,lle, t
an
association, of the public purse. litre, we have an
association, headed by a conservative, and formed for the
express purpose of compelliug parliament to do that which
it does not do—administer with economy and justice the
public funds. Sir, it is not with a view to overturn our in-
stitutions that I advocate reform, but because I feel that
reform is necessary from time to time; and I take the op-
portunity of advocating it in this legitimate way in order to
avert the scenes which have occurred on the eontinent, and
to prevent its bei g sought for by b syonets and muskets in the
streets. (Hear, hear.) It is because I a-n opposed to farce
that I take the only alternative left, and I gay
that the men of standing in this country and
members of this house who now advocate this wis
extension of the suffrage ore the real come rvators of the
peace. (Cheers.) So long as you give the people an earnest
of your desire to redress their grievances they will wait
patiently ; and so long you have a guarantee for the safety
of the country. My object in supporting this motion is t.
bring to bear upon the legislature the e writer. and that
Went which characterise the middle and industriousclawee,
who, talk as you may of your aristocracy and your traditions,
form the greatness and the glory of the c 'entry. the
worst thing in the country is its trovernment, and that
is made by your tradition and your aristocracy. Your
literature, arts, commerce, and industrial enterprise, are to
be traced to the middle and industrious classes; and it is be-
cause I wish to brine that leerature, that industry, and mat
frugality which distingui-h those classes to bear upon this
house, that I support the present motion. (Hear, hear.)
Isle, intQuimicr conceived that the lion, member fur
Middlesex, in snnourcing that the Re-firm Bill had been a
failure in a financial point of view, argued against his Own
proposition, in demanding another reiorm bill the
former measure .had had the effect of increarng
the public expenditure, another meaeure of the
same description might be expected to increase that expen•
diture still more. He objected to this m. tion, not may as
not productive of advent tee, but as positively detrimental ;
it would give an immense stimulus to agitation. The popular
feeling had been much ex eggerated; it was nothing
like what prevailed in 1830. Tne present house, after
neglecting its duty of guarding popular rights, and advising
ministers, now sought to popularise itself by entering into
the wild arena of political ?siltation. This was a sign of evil
times. Disapproving of the motion, for the reasons he hod
stated, he would move, as an amendment :—" That the ex-
perience we have already acquired has shown that the agita-
tion for reforms of our institutions has not obtained for Us
the ends for which those reforms were desirable—namely,
non-interference with the affairs of other nations, and reduc-
tion of expenditure at home."
Mr. ANSTEY seconded the amendment, and Bali he
cordially agreed in every word that had fallen from the hon.
gentleman who had preceded him, except that, in the amend-
ment, he thought it would ho better to substitute the word
" desired " for " desirable."
The amendment having been put,
Mr. L. KING supported the motion.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said it was an admitted fact that
every new political party and every new political question
went through a certain ordeal. First the leaders were
laughed at, then scoffed at, then reviled, then persecuted,
then their proposals were heard, then discussed, and after-
wards Irgielattd mt. This motion and its treatment by the

Prime Minister of the crown gave him a guarantee that he
and his brother chartists had not laboured in vain.
The speech of the hon. member for Reading had
been much bepraiaed. It had been called able,
poetical, astounding, and utenishing—(a laugh)--but
it seemed to nine to Lie a speech base" %man ismoranie of the
question. Inc hon. member wanted education, but political
rights must precede it. Eetratichise the people and igno-
!mace would become a crime • hut do not aeep the people in
Ignorance and punish then, oecaum they were to. The lion
member far eloetros said that this motion was the motion
now Adopted by the maiiirity of the ROTIL tig classes of this
count". He (Mr. O'Connor) 'herald he unworthy his
place in parliament if he did not give the flattest denial to the
et emcee The majority of the people were for the people's
charter in all its integrity. lie ceutioned the member fur
H •ntrose and the government how they ventured to post-
pone the larger comession which the people required. All
teat had occurred in other countries hail occurred in rinse-
(pence of withholding the people's rights. Nevertheless,
though it did not go ter enough, it was his intention to vote
for the motion before them. He should do so, if on no
other ground, at 'east upon the ground that it proposed to
shorten the duration of par lateen's. He declared that,
utter seeing how the time of the house was fridertil away,
he should prefer minuet parliament+ without further chance,
to univerud suffrage with a septennial parliament.
Annual parliame. ts, universal suffrage, electoral lbstrims,
pay meet of members, no property media ation—all these,
bye ot the six ;saws of the people's charter, had been in
t enter times feature+ in the constitution of these realms.
Why were they net again to he recognised ? Al to the aid
tattoo by which the peopl• sought to gain their legitinsa.e
runs, the sic gatemen on the usitostertal bench, s eertatnly bad
no right to mongol:lin of it, since it was precisely them-
selves, who in teener y ars, to gain their ends,
had taught the people agitation, and set the es-
ample of the very clew of language which they now
aeriounreil as Petite ius. Those gentlemen stood by
the Reform Bill of 1832, that master which had
wholly failed to fulfil the olnects wheel it was announced to
effect. whose motto was" Peace, ltemenchmerte an I Reform,"
and the daddy' expectation trim which woo, high w ges.
cheap food, end plenty to eloolmost as great a hibele as the
" Liberty, Equality,Fratereity" jargon of our neighbours
aer, so the chattier'. He himself brioneed to re ither party,
to re ither faction in that Meese ; neither to the aristocracy
fiction on that ride of the house, nor to the middle-class
faction on toe other, the only difference between whom
was, that the former had deceived the eremite onee, aline
the better had deceived the people twice; he inlouse cl to the
part rumen, people, and he would tell the house and the
geve that unless th • just dam mil. of the people, of
the working classes, wi re consetled before lone, govern•
meet smile flail themselves all at once in the position of the
late French goverumc lit. Rear, bear.) Not that this
should he dons by a violent rev elution—Old (idled! be
would heartily say, for he knew that the first shot fin el in
such a contest would seal the doom of the working el user,
who would thee he pigsliet here as they heel been in France.
It was said that the working thesis+ were not Litt d for the
trust of election's tie agar el conduet as a most mien
tiul tent of qualification, and he should like to know
what e mid have been more exemplary than hit been the
conduct of the working Class,/ of Ragland stolid all the
eels vaus miseries which they had puttered ter the last
six year.. (liar, hear) He simnel vote for the hon.
member's notion as better teen !iodine at all ; but he
tr misty repudiated it as a at dimmed of the gees
lion; and so long as aught of feeluence and energy
reurined to him, that influence and that energy
should be enthusiastically applied to the attainmeut
of the great object ot his life—the p emit's charter.
One class was set against onetime chess, in order to
promote the oftieste n' a third par ty. 1h it species of tactic,
was awe)a resorted to its politied struggles. The free traders
ha 1 doer so. by setting the middle C. 14.10, grimiest the work-
ing clas•es. He would taSe that opportunity of saying to
the hon. member tor Montrose., that when, on a former even.
ing, he had taunted the hon. mem er with haying withdrawn
his motion fur reform, and the hou. teemiser Inc the West
Ridley her charged him wi'h ferocity in so doing,
he did eat intend to make any harsh observa-
tion., seal he begged to express his regret if he
had dole so, fur he Lever intended to show any
ferecity towards the hon. member. But, in raying
great he did on that occasion, the hon. meta-
-1 her for the West Riding hail oily Pursued the course
to which he (Mr F. O'Connor) hied already referral, and
had tiled to set the middle elasys suainst the working
reassess, who were in favour of the chimer. Ile yodel now
conclude, Gely observing that if it had not been the intention
of the has. neemlwr to divide un his !within that erasing, he
should have reserved what be had to say until he had heard
the sentiments of all those who we're lii/1104C,1 to speak on
the question bsfore the homy. But ar it was for the advan
rage of tire cause that the house should come to a division
that evenieg he should content himself with stating that, es
the prutectien party had adopted the cry of " Ni, surrender,"
an he would take his stiand upon the charter, and cry " The
chaster, and no surrender."
Mr. H. MILN ES should detain the house only a very few
minute. whilst he stated his reasons for not supporting the
new Reform Bid, at the same time that he war by no means
opposed to reform. His obje. ton to the metien of the hon.
memher for Montrose was the fundamental one that there
haul b en no grounds yet sh evn for the new reterrn league,
or fur the agitation which it proussed et create in the coun-
try. In all organic reforms two things were neeeseary to
inquire into—the first, what are the evil, which it was
a eight to remedy? The second, whether there was any
great or general popular demaod fur that organic reform
Now lie did not think that a sufficient case had been made
out of great practical evila suffietent to show that such a re-
form as the one proposed was necessary. Whateeer
might be said of the constitution of the house, he knew
that in the ulnas de resort it did represent the people,
and be believed there was no true demand fur a greater
representation. It WAS true that a went preponlerwice was
given to the aristocracy in that house; hut that pit panderance
was hie, ly given—it was given he cause the 'tropic liked the
aristocracy. There was no doubt the people of Englund
loved a lord. There was no question that they pr, terrier
having an aristocracy. Take the instance of the noble lords
who sat in that house. Observe the hahittial deference which
was poi Ito them. (Laughter and ironical cheers.) Bid any
one ever see a lord put down in the: place ? (L tughter and
hear ) Ile never did; and if people would pi teed In giving
such privileges to the aristocracy, they had no right in that
helve to complain of the et istocratic elements which it con-
tained. For all the reasons he had stated he should not vote
for the resolutions of the hon. meinher far Montrose ; nor
did he think they were called foe. But he certainly did ad-
mit that the recent events of the continent of Eu opa might
leave tree' of their occurrence in Ens/hind ; and theft if in
France, I:simony, and Italy a share of political pawi r was
given to every man, he could not deny that au echo of those
I vents wield teemed throughout the lend, and that they
must be prepared to meet the demand, and to accede in some
measure to the cry that would be sent forth for
rucreestel political privileges en the part of the people.
Mr. S. HERBERT, who spoke in a very low tone of
voice, said th it he was n It about to trouble the house with a
very 1r ngthv speech. His only e mein for making any ob-
servation, was his anxiety to show that in the vote he was
about to give he war actuate" by very dill.. rent motives and
held different opinions from many wi h whom he
would retire into the lobby. lle was not one of
these who believed that the present system of representation
was perfect, or that there were not instal points in which it
might be amended. (Hear, hear ) But it was not neces-
sary to go deeply into that part of the subject, because it had
been already most clearly, wisely, and ably elucidated by the
nohle lord at the hesd of th ; government. He had beard
with great pleasure that noble lord give up the doctrine o
finality in beislation. (Cheers.) He (Mr Herbert) was
one of these who regretted that when the representation was
altered the mileage was diminished. lie feared it had been
too much the habit to confound means with iinds, and to argue
sail theobjectsie treeinstitutions were tepee the people ere es,
not to Menial for them good government, whereas the former
was only an incident, the istter the real object and end ot
such ins itutions. He thought they were bound to ask
themselves whether they had that system of I.ghration
a hick was moot capable of carrying on the government of
the country ; and secondly, whether their legislation was
much as to carry with it the sympathy of the great body ot
the people. lie regretted the abolition of many tranchiees
which hod existed tiefore the Reform Biil ; fur instance, he
regretted what was call' d the poterelloping qualification.
heiheoses
sented, as He thoug
het it desirable that those el isms should
r prebelieved that amene other gaud thitess
it Iseult go far to cure them of their hero worship.
IThe power of sending a man to parliament would
cure the working classes of the habit of forming
inordinate expectation., and their representatives of the
equally mischievous habit of making fallacious promises.
( Bear, hear.) He wondered whether tho hon. member near
him, when he went back to his constituents in Nottingham,
after bevel been no long in the immediate proximity to the
Thames without setting it on fire, as he had promised—(a
laugh)—would he able to give his constitute. is a satisfactory
account of his beckslidinge He would most likely find that
a more difficult task than telling an excited people whet he
would do it he only were in parliament. (Laughter.) There
was one point connected with this moti in welch had not
been touched on before, but which, in kis opinion, should
not be overlooke I—namely, the effects which the introduc-
tion of similar measures had produced in neighbouring
countries. The hon. member for Montrose had said that
England, which hail been formerly in the von of all cons-
tries in the adoption of free institutions, was in the rear;
and the noble lord at the head of the government had site
great wisdom said in reply to that " wait for the remit."
(Cheers ) New, without waiting long, he would call the
attention of the house to a few of the effects which such
measures had already produced in France. The hon.
member for the West Riding had said that the
great object of extending the franchise would be to
reduce the expenses. Had that been the effect in Paris ?
They had increased their army by 30,000 men, besides
320,000 nation il guards. They had, in fact, under that
peaceful emeriti° government the greatest amount of men
in arms that had:ever been known in the time of
Har
peace. Had
democrat c government diminished jabbing ? (e, hear.)
There were the ateliers nationaux, which were neither more
nor Lim than sinecure situations for 100,000 men. (Hear,
hear.) There had been, no doubt, 'sinecures uefore the re-
volution, but nothing like the enormous job of the ateliers.
The bon.member for Middlesex had spoken of family compacts,
and c enplsined of the number of appointments divided
among persons rather curiously and inconveniently related
together. (Laughter.) But things were much worse in
Paris. He had seen it stated that the editor ot the National,
M. Manias; with his printers and publishers, divided
amongst them public emoluments to the amount of 40,0001.
(Hear, hear.) Now, in England, where the domestic feel-
ings were strongest, they would prefer that persons bound
together by the recognised ties of family should enjoy the
good things ratheethan that they should be scattered amongst
issuers, wholly unfit through the interest of some
party above them. (A laugh.) He might ask
the hon. member whether he liked the manner

in which the secret service money had been die
posed of by • democratic government? (Hear,
hear.) Whether its disposal had net given grounds for sue•
petting the most eminent men in the eountry of that meanest
of all crimes, pecuniary peculation? (Hear, hem.) Then,
for the liberty of the subject, that had been soon asserted by
carrying off the commander of the national guards. He
might mention many other instances to show that experi-
ments, such as the hon. member for Middlesex proposed,
did nut always lead to the results expected. (Hear, hear.)
Then there was Prussia—a country in which, if intellectual
cultivation were to be token as a standard, the
people were infinitely superior ti the people of England.
tine of the changes there effected by the introduction of de-
mocratic principles was the payment of members, and the
consequence had been that the legislative body was rapidly
losing all respect in the eyes of the people. (Hear, hem.)
They amused themells et in criticising the dress of their repre-
sentatives, and making proposals that they should be paid by
teekwork, in order that they might get through their work
1.0071er. They were to be paid, it appeared, by the job, ac-
cording to the number of hills, and no memb r was to spesk
against time for the sotto of his 7s. Gil. a d,.y. A
ist h.) Ho wes proud to are oho tranquillity of
tide country, knowing as he did, that there were
CSIMI of disturhance in this country as great as
any that had exploded in France. He hod great hopes of
the ctuntry, but nut from the memeare proposed by the hon.
member fur Montrose. U 0 looked for improvement from
that house sitting icicle seriously to consult the wants and
veml.es of the country, and from its remedying those defects
and alimes in its own constitution which recent election
pentium had rendered so painfully apparent. lie should
merely further my, that hie object in rising had been to ex-
pain that in giving his vote 'grins. the present motion, he
was not recording his opinion absolutely in favour of our
legi lative system as it now existed.
• Lord D. ST CAR r, who spoke Emil frequent calls for a
dinsioe, observed that the principle of linali•y could no
loctom. be maintained, for all partied now admitted that some
ref /rm was absolutely necessary. " Coming events Cain
their shadows before," and this agreement of parties of oppo-
site mews and opposite pr eciples foreshadowed a speedy
measure of reform, based up n, the model demanded by the
popular voice. The hon. geteuematt who last spoke had,
referring to the opinion of some other party, said
that it the people were really so anxious for
reform. oho demand tor it would he more general. Upon
this ?oiat. as represemiag a large metropolitan cinstituency,
who took. • dap iaterest iu this question, he must be allowed
to snake a few remarks. The question was, whether the
people of this country did really & al met such a measure as
coat brought forward by the hon. member for Montrose, and
whether such a En, ours would be of advantage to the
country, if conceded. He th• u tilt no one who had observed
the suet+ passing sround him could dispute the first proposi-
tion. (Hear, Rear.) The noble lord (J. Ituste.l) had
denied the definition given by his la n. friend (Mr. Hume)
of the rights of the people ; he had denied that the suffrage
was the right of every Englishman; but he said that the
people had a rieht to tile best possible government, and the
bst visible system of representation. That was a &Elul-
t ont which meant nothing at all—for one man might think a
let qua:lli:anon, with the nub' lord at the head of the
minestry, was the best system of goverument, while another
might say that the charter anti the he...tumble member
fur Nottingham as the First Lotd of the Treasury would be
tee best government. (" Hear," and a laugh.) lie had
c..rtaiitly not expected such a definition from a stat amen
won hail, on a former occasion, 'toted that the libereies of
England were tounsed on the general consent of all, and
must rem tin on that loads or mom to exist. (Cheers.) But
ithout elfirreing the right of every man to use franchise, it
must be admit eel that the principle of the British constitu-
tion was to extend the basis of representation as widely as
p ssible, and to place a limit on it• exercise only
when the safety of the state required it. lie
wan deliirded to find that the reform bill had does
@tine stood—he a:v ore tnenght .t. would.although not • Der
met measure. Let them then go on. (Much interruption,
cre of " divide.") lie Witt opposed to finality and in
favour of gradual erogrem, that the couetry might ob.ain a
further reduction ad ',Latium (" Hear, beer," and renewed
era's of divide.") lie was therefore for an extension of the
suffrage and triennial parliaments. Thera might be mom
difficulty in arranging the question of electoral districts; but
then teas resolution did not commit hon. members to
any particular form, as it only aimed for more equal elec-
toral discrete. (Cries of "oh, oh.") lie held it to be
Onportant that that house should be in harmony
watts the feelings of the pemle. They had often shown
their attachment to thu institutions of the country,
tied certainly if ever there was a time in our
history when they ought to be trusted it was the present ;
for, while revolutions, anarchy, stud coefusion were going on
in almost every country in the world, all classes of the Eng-
lish people were pray-ntinganexuaple of order, forbearance,
and public virtue, which posterity would admire, and which
lie thought that holm., ouglot to reward, by granting their
just demands. (Cheer*, and loud cries tar a division.)
Mr. MC NTZ denied that the imitation tor reform was, as
alleged, a nursed agitation, and neither spontaneous or natu-
ral, It was said to t it ought to come tram the newt... and
not be tent to them; and so he believed it did. He „elite s:4
the proposition of his hon. friend the member for Montrose to
he sound, just, and right in prie.ciple, mud he ehould give it
Li. must cordial support. (Hear, hear, and loud cries of

" Divide.")
Mr. NE WDEGATE rase, but was met by loud and gene-
ral demands fur • dirisious which continued during the
whole time the hon. menthe r essayed to make himself heard.
Mr. VILLIERS said he did not intend at that hour of the
night to ataud up to follow the hon. member (Mr. Newac-
gam) on questions which were really not before the house,
but he wi,hed shortly to state the reasons which induced him
to vote for ;he propeeitien et his hon. friend the member for
Montrose, even though ho did not agree in some of tee
t, ems in which the resolution was couched. He
(Mr. Villiers) simply voted for the motion because
he thought it recognised the policy of widenin,
the basis of the representative system, and because
it proposed to give some protection to the voter
when he obtained tic suffrage. He thought it wise to re-
cognise that policy, but. he at the same time thought the ex
tension ought to be grie'u,d, and that great caution ought to
he exercised in the mode in which it was effected. He must
remark that he old not believe that legislation would be
very different from what it was et present, even if the suf-
frage was extended ; end with all respect for the Reform Act,
he did not think it had made any alteration is the legible.
then which had been adopted. De believed that as
now constituted the house would not resist anything honestly
desited i,y the country. Sall that was no reason for refu-
sing an exteneio , of the suffrage when demanded by the
people, and he thought an.extenbion so demanded would, if
. rented, iherease the confidenice of the people io the legisla-
tints which should follow. (Hear, hear.) One great failure
was that the pr ipisition contained no remedy for bribery
and intimidation except the adoption of the ballot. Now
an extension of the suffrage without protection to the voter
would only tend to degrade and demoralise him.
It was • mistake to suia,oee that tyranny pre-
vailed only among the farmers—it pervaded all classes,
and aiding no class more so than the constituen-
cies of large t mote ; indeed, there it was universal. The
tact that at the last election nit less than a quarter of 'a
million of elec,ors on the rt gister did not vote, showed that
the franchise was a curse instead hf a blessing. The ballot
WAS suggested as the remedy ; but with the difference of
opinion which existed on that plan, he regretted that his
hon. fiend hod not brought it forward as a beparate and
dietetic'. question. (Hear, hear.)
The amendment having been withdrawn.
Mr. HUME replied. As many hon. members were now
present who had not heard his original statement, he begged
to repeat what his proposition really was. lie c inteddeel
that this house of parliament ought to represent the whole
community, and that it did not do so. He contended further
that ne man ou'ait to be taxed without authorising, either by
himself or his representative, such taxation. There w, re-
hear millions of men of full age at present excluded
from that privilege, and who had no power in making
the laws which affected their property or t'.eir liber-
ties, and hence they were little better than slaves.
Another point to which he had called attention was this.
The representation was most unequally divided, and bore
no proportion whatever to the property of the country ; fur
seven or eight very small boroughs sent as many members no
to overrule the whole representation of London, Liverpool,
and Edinburgh. There would be no difficulty whatever in
removing thin inequality, if the house would give him leave
to introduce his bill. He ask, d the house to agree to this
motion as a matter of right ; all the people were entitled by
the constitution to a voice in the choice of their representa-
tives. Th-e was a representative government, and every
man of mature age ought to be represented in the
Same way. At present, four millions were ex-
cluded, and the consequence was discontent and dissatis-
faction, and the basis of the government was not secure.
He proposed this as a measure of peace, and to prevent evil
consequences. (Hear, hear.) lie had been asked to con-
eider what was passing in France ; and it was the amide:ea-
tem of that whicn made him desirous that England never
should be subjected to such proceedings. (Hear, hear.)
If the people were denied this right, they were injured ; if
injured, they became discontent, d; and with so many mil-
lions discontented. the country was not safe. Was it not a
scandal to this country that, within the last few months, one
half the population had had to be called out to keep down
the other halt, who only sought a share in that political in-
fluence which they had a right to enjoy i lie demanded this
as a matter of right; as a matter of justice and
policy the house ought to grant it. It was their own inte-
rest to do so; for none were so much interested as those who
had property to take care of. (Hear.) The peace of the
country could not he secured while such an extent of injus-
tice continued. Ile considered that no answer had been
given to the arguments by which he had supported the mo-
tion ; he would therefore ask the house to divide, and let the
country judge hereafter of the result. (Hear, hear.)
The house divided—For the motion
Against 351-267
LIFE ASSURANCE.
On the motion of Mr. W. FAGAN, leave was given to bring
in a bill to make lite policies of assurance assignable at law.
The bill was read a first time.
The house adjourned at 1 o'clock.

FURNITURE BROKERS' BENEVOLENT INSTITUTION.
—The ninth anniverury dinner of this institution was hAd
at the Freemasons' Tavern, G. E. Shuttleworth, Jun., Esq.,
in the chair. Several of the principal auctioneers were pre-
sent on the occasion, together with most of the leading
members of the trade. The usual loyal and pataiotic touts
having been appropriately introduced by Ch
erima, and
responded to by the company, the treasur, Mr. Winter,
proceeded to lay before the assembly the affairs ot the insti-
tution, which appear in a flourishing state, upwards of
1,2001. being invested in government securities to the credit
of the institution. TIM'S annuitants receive the bounty of
the subscr.bers, to the amount of 151. each, which the interest
on the invested fund is sufficient to defray.