The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-30 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY

kw would milt
idip 8111. The gates
4e will& bad been :by the government
.ecly inesonpatible with garmetary system,
_• each
was bad ha luelf,;but the Piro malted would be highly
‘inental to Ow interests of the Collilitl7. He wished also
anew what his right hon. fries! intended to do fee
Jingled, and whether he intended to rase a loan for that
coestry
Mr. J. A. SMITH agreed with whit bad fallen from
his hon. friend, the numbs for the West Riding, during
the first part of his speeah7-that it was the imperative duty
of she .government to Sulks the revenue gut the expendi-1
ture meet ; and he could not forbear rising to justify the'
vote which he intended to give in favour of the mea-
sure of the government. He should give that vote, beaus
he behaved the government had done all that lay in thew
power to avoid the position in which they were now placed.
They had proposed a tax to avoid the deficiency which ei-
istea in the revenue. He (Mr. J. A. Smith) had supposed
the measure, and it was with regret that he saw them
abandon it. There was at the present • time
led
a
peculiar position of affairs which he conside
to justify the course which' they had taken. This
country was suffering from a deficiency occasioned
mainly by a visitation of Providence—a famine in the slater
kingdom. He believed also that the cause being temporary
the deficiency would he temporary also; and that the cir
cumstance, in which the government were undoubtedly
placeill-the lODIC of the empire—the state of the whole
world-justified the government in conceding to the opinion
of the !louse of Commons, that it was not expedient to in-
crease the amount of taxation. In that cue the only alter-
native was to make a great re ductien in the expendi-
ture. Now he was not one of those who considered
that under peculiar circumstances a reduction of expenditure.
was n t judicious ; but he was not afraid to say that he did
not think that even the reduction which bad be. n made was
altogether advisable. lie was not afraid of war ; but he wan
sorry to hear the hon. member for the West Reline give his
opinion that the idea of war had been started by professional
gentlemen for interested purposes. lie thought tee insinua-
tion ahem they unwort by of the hon. gen s
le man, Tui
country owed all her tranquillity to her continued prepam
tion fur attack, which was toe greatest security for peace ;
Rod it sviuld net oe wise to reduce the expenditure this year.
The government had done all that they could to tweet the
expenditure by proposing en increase of taxatioe ; they had
done what was right in yielding to the opini mof the house
and withdrawing their proposal ; and he would give his vote
for their present measure.
Leid G. BENTINCK thought that the hon. member for
the West Riding was the last gentleman who should charge
others with wi:ked delusions. The bon gentleman might
think that 17 millions of expenditure could be reduced, but
he had found no one there to coincide with him in the opinion.
The circumstances in which this country WAS placed at the
commerce:mot of the year were very different to the present,
The warlike preparations which hid been euegested and re-
commend, d by the Prince do Joinville in 1844 had been
faithfully carried our, and an increase in the maritime power
of France had taken place such as had no justification except
in some resolution in the minds of the rule re of Fiance that
the day must c nue when they would desire to use them
against this country. lie was one of those who would have
refused, bad the question come to the vote, to add to
the property or income tax. He was one of those who voted
with the hon. member for Montrose to curtail it to its pre-
sent amount. But the house, though prepared to refuse
the Cnancellor of the Eunequer an increase in that tax, '
was never asked whether it would refuse an additional tea
on customs. Had the noble lord (J. Russell)
and the Chancellor of the Exchequer come and
&eked the house to impose some of the tales
on customs which had been lately repealed, and to
continue others which were soon to fell to the ground, he
would have given them his hearty support. It had been
stated that the reduction which had been made in taxaties
amounted to the same sum as the preseut de ficieney ; and the
hon. member for the West Riding had stated, that notwith-
standing the reduction in question, the net revenue of the
country had never been so large as at present. Now, in 1848,
alter the reduction of • considerable amount of customs duties,
the revenue was 51,451,6091.; while, in 1846, before the
reduction of those duties, it was 53,616,1781 , being an in- ,
Mitt of 2,200,0001. over the revenue of last year. So that '
the ro would now be an ample surplus, instead of a deficiency,
had it not been far the alterations in the customs duties
which hail taken place during the last few years. He said,
if they were now in difficulties, let them not look to loans
but to the customs duties. Let them foilow the example of
America, and have equal taxes for all the produce of foreign
industry. But the Chancellor of the Exchequi r had fallen into
the old chronic vice of the whigs of always getting into a defi-
ciency. Ever since they came into power in 1830 they had
discovered a casualty every year to account for that dal-
ciency, and this year it was attributed to the Kaffir war. I
But he manitained that it war the duty of a government to '
provide for such casualties, for it could not be expected that
there would never be another famine, or more disturbances'
on the continent, which by checking trade would diminish
the consumption of excivable articles, and cause
the government to fall into the position at present
occup ed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and
the whig government, fast travelling into a state of insol-
vency and beggary. Ile considered that there were many
taxes which might be re-imposed with advantage in the pre-
sent difficulty, among which he considered that the duties
on foreign timber and cotton would tall as lightly DI any on
the people of this country ; and he considered also
that the duties on corn might have be en con-
tinued for a few year mine, if for no other
reason, fur the sake of the revenue which they produced.
Le t them not have Ti Course to the odious income tax or to
the entailing of debts on our posterity; alter 33 sears of
peace, let them not be mi-led by the delusion of those who
said that the repeal of the corn laws would make flour lid.
a pound, end fill England with prosperity by causing her to
exchange her manufactures with foreign countries, so as to
leave to every operative superfluity out of his higher wages
and cheaper bread, to be expended on tea and sugar. Lot
them rather look to the result of our diminished export" to
the extent of 5,000,0001.
Lord J. RUSSLLL did not think, after the experience of
the session, that the government he d acre d unwisely in hav-
ing proposed an increase of the income tax—parti-
cularly when he considered that successive govern-
ments had pursued the plan of reducing the taxes of the
country to a great extent. No lees than 10,000.0001. a year
had recently been tac n off those tales that pressed upon
articles of resumption; and that being so when circum-
'venue arose to ca.l fur extraordinary expenditure, the y were
obliged to propose an unusual measure to meet it. An hon.
gentlemen asked, why not take money from the balances
instead of proposing a loan ? but under all the circumstances
he felt that the course proposed and exPained by his right
hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the beat.
The boa. member fur Montrose proposed a great reduction
of the naval and military force of the country. But what
Mr. WODEHOUSE blamed the government for having appeared lately in the newspepers respecting a contemplated
yielded to the suggestion of the hon. member for Montrose, war by France in Belgium would, he was sure, at once show
in reference to sending out of the country two regiments, how impolitic such • measure would have been on the part
the tote and the 92nd, at an improper period of the year of Eogl ind. (Hear, hear.) On th, other hand, the feeling
owing to ...hitch upwards of 600 men and between 20 and all of the country was so significantly expressed against it, he
offisers last their lives. The withdrawal of the African thought the government would not have been juhilied in
squadron had also been recommended. Such a measure persistieg in their proposition ofincreasingtheinconee tax,and
would be most disgraceful. lie considered that ants even, therefore was it that they had recourse to a loan, The noble
tially necessary to keep up the army at its pres amount, lord proposed certain duties upon timber and raw cotton.
in order to preserve peace in the manufacturing districts. Political economists, long previous to Adam Smith, were of
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY referred to the opposition given opinion that putting duties upon the materials of manufac-
re was a most unwise course. It had been the great bout
by members of the present government toahe original imposi-
tion et the income tax, and said that such • tax ought only of Sir Robert Walpole that he had greatly reduced such
to be resorted to in cases of great emergency. lie thought dutiesand (Lord J. R • 11)
; he Russell) certainly would not be dis-
it desirable that the Ch smeller of the Exchequer should posed to impose such duties. (Hear. hear.) Respecting the
corn laws, he did not then wish to dispute with the
state whether he proposed to make up the deficiency by ex- noble lord what might be the effect of a is. duty ;
chequer bills or by the creation of new stock. but he certainly rejoiced at being connected with a govern.
Mr. HENLEY complained that the !scheme propounded ment which had nothing to do with the sliding scale of
at the beginning of the present year by her Mijesty's go- 1815. During the whole of this year, corn was introduced
vernment had been abandoned, and that a loon was contem-
with the certainty
plated. He saw nothing in the state of the country to . that there would be no duty above 10s.,
and that if the price r.ae much over 500. it would be ad-
justify this course of proceeding, which he held to be a den- witted at a 4s. duty, instead of waiting, as under the slid-
venue, profuse, and reckless mode of operation. At the ing scale, till it rose to 70s. before it would be admitted at
same time, looking at the state of the approaching harvest,
the condition of Ireland, and the circumstanres by which this that duty. lie thought that that hail been of the greatest
country was surrounded, he could not vote against the nom- advantage to manufacturers and consumers and that a great
security heal been given this year over' the years of
mittal of this bill. 1841-2-3.
Mr. DRUDIMOND (Surrey) concur!, d will much that
had been said on the subject of retrenchment ; but, looking The house then divided—Forgoing into committee —5l
66
Against it
at the position of affairs, he should regret if the house was The house then went into committee on the bill.
driven to a division on the present occasion. The bill then passel through committee.
Mr. URQUHART expressed his determination to vote SAVINGS BANKS BILL.
' with the hon. member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) if he On the motion for seine into committee on this bill,
pressed his amendment to a division.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that the English and Scotch
Mr. NEWDEGATE sail he was not prepared to refuse
savings banks considered that the provisions in this bill
the supplies, which were celled for by the surrender of all would be injurious to those institutions is these countries.
substantial principle.' to the advocates of free trade. lie did not think it was fair to press the measure at no late a
Mr. COBDEN said that the charge had ofmn been reite- period of the session, without allowing the persons affected
rated that the deficiency in the revenue arose from the free full time for consideration. (Hear, hear.) lie objected to
trade measures which had been carried. Though it was said the clause relating to the trustees.
that the legislation of 1846 had led to this state of things, he The CHANCELLOR
out of the
the EXCHEQUER said that
leave
he
was prepared to contend that the revenue was now larger proposed to strike words of clause w
than in 1845. This, however, was not now the question. the law as it stood Wore the act of 1841. He did not
, The question Toth', now at issue was whether or not intend to repeal the act of 9 George IV. lie pro-
this country had been spending too much mewl. He, posed to limit the liability of trustees to an amount
I
those who thought with bim, compl lined that the burden not exceeding 1001. He also promised to add words similar to
lof taxation on the people was excessive, and he contended those proposed by the hon. member for Athlone (Mr. Keogh).
that the course cet legisla•ion to which the house had vaunted Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that the changes proposed
had made the proposed loan necessary, On the 25th of by the right hon. gentleman materially altered the nature of
' February last he had voted in • minority. of 69 on a motion the bill and obviated a part of his objection. But he objected
to reduce the expenditure, and that vote justified his opposi- to the fifth clause more particularly. How was it possible
tion to the proposed loan of 2,000,0001. The increased ex- for the depositors to produce all the books in two days?
penditure arisinq from the cry of an invasion was a monstrous (Hear, hear.) Yet they
so. would
lie did lese the interest onthat the feta-
their de-
I delusion, which had been got up by professional men, and, posits if tbey did not do not think
lon the whole, was unjuaifiable. On every ground he tees would consent to act if this clam e were allowed to stand.
I should vote against the proposed loan, in whatever shape it What had occurred with respect to English and Scotch sa-
-1 est be raised. Tinge banks—he said nothing of Irish banks—to justify the
After a few words from Mr. MUNTZ in explanation, government interfering with them at this late period of the
Kr. J. O'CONNELL said that as none of the opponents session ? An impression hid gone inroad that the money de-
at the government measure had suggested the means by posited in savings banks had been used for other purposes
which to meet the deficiency, he should give his vote in than those which were intended by their institution. lie
favour of the bill now under consideration. At the same hoped that the whole of this hill would be postponed except
close he must observe that if the government would save the the part relating to the Irish banks.
expenditure of the nation they would do justice to Ireland. Mr. HENLEY thought that the government bad laid no
The present cost of the military, naval, and ordnance forces ground whatever for this wholesale interference with
kept_ up in that country amounted from 1,600,0001. to savings bank'. Upon a very meagre report of a committee a
1,600,0001 , and if the demands of Ireland were listened to general measure had been introduced, oh which the managers
and admitted his cost might be diminished by at least one and trustees of Ravings banks probably knew nothing. So
• crude and ilbconcocted a measure ought not now to be
Mr. SYOONE armed the assertion made by the hon. pressed on the house ;it would be much better to consider it
member for the West Riding eater than)
that the income deliberately early next session. To require the proauction
bad this year been greater than in 1845. On of tee depositors books in a given number of days would be
the contrary, he aseerted that before the free-trade an act of great hardship, as many of them might be at a
tricks had been practised upon the country the ro distance, or outof the country. With respect to the English
venue was higher. He found that in 1815, the total and Smech banks there had been no complaint whatever,
income was 64,417,6151., while for the present year it was and that interference would probably create a panic.
52,082,6571., leaving a deficiency of 1,764,0001. With respect Col. THOMPSO
toN said ioor f the hill didrs iot propose t
om gibe
ve
to the proposition of borrowing in time of peace, he had no greater security pbjects
hesitation in saying that the principle was evil, and if the unimportant. Nothing was more clear ' not
othan that any defal-
proposition had been made at an earlier period of the session cation in the write banks must e made good by that
he for one should have been inclined to make a stand against house.
it, and have called noon the government to suggest some Col SIBTIIORP said the bill was an admission that there
plan of taxation on which the nation could rely. Ho must was something rotten is the condition of the savings banks,
condemn a system by which the Chancel of the Ex- Mr. WODEHOUSR, as a trustee of a savings bank,
chequer would in fact give a bond for 1001,, for should he disposed to resign his trust if this bill passed.

taxation had reached its limits, and that all attempts to
increase nee sierenue lyldhicesal ieakelee-outerpe a tax en
property—dtal tailed, el attempt =hie Kai years ago
to make *the reeilieves t tiddler five Or tea per tent to
the Custom, and *seise it knell% bad been • sig-
nal the( theeretterns fecre thus souring hoiebeadectressede
under tbeopentakft of Mut scheme, though the irriee ad the
articles to the consumer bad been enhanced. The see item
on which there was an increase wan the assessed tales, and
that was obtained by a breach of faith, old window, which
were opened on the understanding that they would not bi
charged having been brought into tha mount. Between
the years 1822 and 1844 there he. been reductions in the
funded di bt and in the terminable annuities amounting to
3,030,0001., yet, with the exception of the reiuctien conse-
qui nt on the altered value of money from 6 to 3 per
cent., and from 34 to 3f per cent., this reduc-
tion had not resulted in the saving of a farthing in
the annual charge. On the contrary, the expenditure had
gone on increwing in constque nce of the additions which
had been made to the permanent debt. lie complained not
only that the debt hag increased, but that the whole manege-
me at of the financial affairs of the country was bad. It was,
however, in the power of the people themselves to provide
the remedy by choosing representatives who would do their
duty. They.rau-t remember that b irrowing Web not m king
provisioa,--it wee the act ef the spendthrift. linking at the
state of helmet aud the prospects of the country generally
for the next year, he thought the time had conic when the
house should grapple with the d firculty, by show.ng
determined to educe the expenditure. Thoulth no one was
more desirous for the maintenance of peace and order then
he was, he did think the scale on which our establishments
were kept up was neither necee.ary nor prudent. (Hear.)
The number of armed men now maintained was almost
double what it woe 25 years ago. By the return of the err se
and net income and expenditure of the country,—which
showed the enormous cut of collection, and to which
he wished to direct the attention of honourable
members,—it appeared that the expenditure of the
country had increased by about 10,000,0001. since MG.
The expenditure of our 41 ebonies was most enormous—not
less than 3,172,0001. By giving these colonies selegovern-
meet at least 510,000 of this would be saved. Many thought
the sooner we crone to a reckoning with the landholder the
biter; but he thought the moment the public faith was
broken the power of England was at an cad. (Hear.)
Instead of increasing the debt we ought to dietrinsh it; but
an long W. money could be borrowed eovernments gave the rn-
selves no trouble about the matter. Early next session he
would move resoluta :its pledgieg the house to retrenchment
and reduction. lie would now move that this bill should be
taken :nto consideration that day three menthe.
Mr. M N.rz seconded the motion, noel complained of the
late perio 1 at which the budget had been brought forward.
There must be a.me object in this ; probably it had been
with the view of vetting the house into R state in which the
government could carry what they liked. Funding and bor-
rowing ass not' log better than extravagsoce ; it had been
the resource of all bad governments. A former whig g -
vernment had sought to bolster up a failing revenue Icy add-
ing five per cent. to the assessed taxes. Tney talked much of
the elasticity of the country; hut it did not serve them.
Then p
ro "government hysician" Well coiled in ;he ice
posed a pperty tax, ante he result was to remove the bur-
den, to a certain extent, from the poor to the rich, although
the measure itself was little better than picking pockets. The
liberals, though they had opposed the first imposition of this
tax, had no hesitation in asking for its renewal. Then came
the railway speculation, with its natural cons quence
of a prossure on the money market, to which the potato
failure centributed, and which the Bank Act el 1841 failed to
prevent, notwithstanding all the good effects which it had
been predicted to produce. At the present moment the go
vernmeot was much in the same situation as they a ere
eight or ten years ego : the revenue woe falling oft, trade
decreasing, and d seutent largely prevailing. Every go-
vernment, fur the lest 35 years, had failed to secure pros-
perity the reason was they had uniformly. kept in the old
beaten track. We were told to keep national faith; hut
ho called that national faith which was only kept on one
side "national humbug." (Laughter.) Last year the state
of this country was most disgraceful; no banker on the con•
tinent would cosh a bill on any party in London. If the act
of 1814 was a good cne, why nut carry it out ; why suspend
it when the uitficulty came ? Tee discontent which now
preertiled arose solely from distress: when all classes were
prosperous, it was impossible to get six men together to
talk polities. (Hear and laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
the hurt person to oppose env proper reduceon of expendi-
ture ; and the statement which had been made by the hon.
member for Montrose war the fullest justification of the
course the gov.rement had pursued. He admitted that
overwhelming majorities of the louse had concurred with
the irove remint in the impropriety ot reducing our establi-h-
-meets; and no one who reflected on what had since occurred,
here and in Ireland, could condemn the course then pur-
sued. But the boo. member, in speaking of the mode of
equalising the revenue and the expenditure, while admitting
that the Or plus ultra of taxation was reached, lead in fact
admitted the propriety of the plan which government pro-
powil—to meet the excess of expenditure by borrow-
ing. That ex.eesa was merely of a temporary chat-
ratter, and ought not therefore to be met by tee imposition
of permanent additional taxes. Ile had thought it the best
j course to augment the property tax - the house having ob-
ec to that, he now proposed to take the next beat course,
siker looking to the reduction of the expenditure to the
lowest point consistent with the national security. Upwards
of 800,0001. heed been struck off the original estimates ;
there were many other reductions which might be effected
next year ; and with dist pouibility in view of the govern-
ment, they had felt they should not be justified in proposing
an increase of taxation. Allusion had been made to the in-
creased charge of the debt ; but in the last seven years there
had been a reduction in hat charge of not less than a
million. Admitting the general correctness of the financial
outline which had been given by the hon. member for Bir-
mingham, be would observe that the imposition of the
income tax had been accompanied by very large reduc-
tions in indirect taxation, from which the nation
at large had derived material benefit. lie could
not admit that the change in the condition of our
finances since 1841 was owing to the conduct of any
government; the failure of a large portion of the food
of the Irish people, the severe commercial depression, and
the exportation of the precious metals, sufficiently accounted
for existing emba aaa a meets. He certainly could not
acquiesce in the recommendation of the hon. member for
Birmingham, that, after every other expedient had failed,
they should resort to the doctrines advocated by what was
called the " Birmingham school." (Hear.)
Mr. U. CURRIE expressed his objection to increasing the
funded debt.
Mr. HEY WOOD said he thought tl e course proposed by
the government the beet that could be pursued under the