The Express.
London, England, 1848-02-29 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORI/S.—MOm:4T, FEBRUARY 28.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his Stilt at 6 o'clock.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
THIRD READlNO.—Dipiereatte uslatime (Court of Rome) Bat.
NAVIGATION LAWS.—BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
The Karl of ELLENBOROUUIi thought it right to
notice an inaccuracy in two newspapers (the Timss and
which lad repotted his observations in the debate
on the navigation laws. lie was r presented to have said
that ho thought it insane and absurd to resort to the old
mode of impressment fur manning the navy. What ho had
mid was directly the reverse.
RESIGNATION OF A CLERK.
The LORD CHANCELLOR anuouuced that be bad
received a letter from Mr. Birch, el. rk at the table, stating
that he had turfed the House of Lords for 40 years, and
being now 73 years of age he wished to retire.
DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS (COURT OF ROME)
BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in moving the third
reading of tads bill, though', alter the full discutsion of tle:s
measure ou the second reading, and in committee, it would
be superfluous to detain their lordships by any lengthened
oloserietious on this stage of the bill. Ile would, however,
tithe that opportunity of stating that he did not pre-
pow to call upon the house to alter the vote which
they hod come to the other night. At the same time,
he might say, that persons exceednigly learned in these
subjects said they did not
the
in the apprehen,imis eater
taiued, arid did not think the amendment would effect the
object which those who proposed it had in view.
After a low words from ES l FITZWILLIAM,
The Bishop of St. DAVID'S expressed his disapprobation
of the miouster from Rome being an ecclesiastic; and ap-
proved of that part of the measure which made it necessary
that he should net be so.
The Earl of ABERDEEN objected to the &pp:nation
of " tiovereigu of th Roman States." Ile t fought they
ought nut to have attempted to draw a distinction between
the temporal end spiritual character of the Pope. It was a
distinction whicucueld nut be carried out; tor, it the Pope
was treated on temporal prince, the Queen in address-
ing him, in the very first credentials which she had to sign, I
must addrees hint as "Sir, my brother," and sub:critic her-
self, " Your good sistir." Ho did not see why he should
not be called •' the Pope." lie was so denominated in the
treaty of Vienna, whit h was subscribed by his late Majesty
George 111. He thought the measure would be productive
of no advantage. It was sophistical to attempt to separate
the temporal from the spiritual character of the Pope. Her
Majesty might address tee Pope in the usual style, " Most
holy falter," as the King of Prussia and other protestant
countries did. He tnought it would be morc respectful to
introduce the words, "Court of Rome," in the first part of
the bill, and in the later parr, instead of calling the Pope
" the S otereign of the Itomon states," to use the ;elm Retie-
rally applied to him. The King of Prussia night reconcile
himself a. may moment to the court of Rene, and not
forfeit his crown ; but her Majesty only held her crown
on the uuderstattling that she should not be retoneilid to
the Pope. Would it not, therefore, be unwise to noise any
question of that kind ? This bill must be intended to facili-
tate our dealings with her Majesty's Roman catholic sub-
jects in. Ireland, but the noble lord profeseed to li.vo nothieg
to do with Irehmd in connexion with the Pope, and made it
appear that the measure had resulted from the present
state of Italy. Ile (the Earl of Aberdeen), however, denied
that such was the ease; but he thought it better not to ap-
point a minister to Rome. Some four years ago her
Majesty's Lou government propose. the esti:instant:at of
Iri-h colleges ; and what would they have thaw if they had
had a minister at the court of Rome ? Would be have cam.
municited tee intentious of our government to that court ?
If so, the court of Rome, which had since objected to those
colleges, wino.' have urged their objections then; and what
would hive been the result? Would the gu:ernment have
abandoned their intention, or have recalled their minister
from the court of Rome ? (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was sorry that he had
misunderstood the noble earl, but he was happy to be able
to deny the statement, and he called upon the noble earl to
state by abut authority he knew of such distrust having
bean expreased. He could take upon himself to albino that
no each di-trust had ever been imminorneated to her Majes-
ty's goverumeita (Hear, hear.) Although he was not, as
the noble earl miaht be, in the councils of other states, in
whom distrust had been excited—(hear, hear)—ho would
repeat, that if any such distrust existed, it had
been kept a profound secret. (Hear, bear.) As to
the term " Soverei,,no of the Roman States," it was not in-
troduced by Lim, sut at the suggestion of the noble duke
oplio-ita (the Duke of Wellington), who had given much
consideration to the subject ; and it had also been declared
by a violate earl, the highest authority on Roman catholic
epir.ions, to be a iorm acceptable at Rome. He (the Mar-
quis of Lansdowne) did nut therefore Ineitate to accept the
term. (Ilea. hear.) It was, moreover, a term fee sgoised
by the cathclie and ocher states of Italy. ITlconclu-fon, he
would only say that her Majesty would be perfectly tree to
hold int, reaurae with tho Pope, according to the usual terms
betwi'ett the aivereign of this country and that of Rome or
any other. (Hear, hear.)
The bull was then read a third time, and their lordships
adjourned at six o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, FHB. 28.
The Si amois took the chair at I o'clock.
Pf.IVATE 111.111NE54.
SECOND READlNG4.—Dirkenhead Dock Commirsioners (trawler
et powers to nen esnamtf•irmers, effecting numfgements wan the
avwn, net.), (No. 2) • Chester cemetery; 13111 s.
PULILLC DUSINIS.I.

Several members ColTli;oaths.
SfiCuND ltettoiNG.—Jelat St..ck Cam anles
KINSALE ELECTION PETITION.
Mr. BOU VERIE brought up the report of the select
committee appo and to try the merits of the petition againet
the return of R. S. Geinuees, Esq., fur the borough of Kin-
sale. The committee reported that Mr. Guianese bad not
been duly elected tor the said borough, and tort there had
beam no person elected to represent it. That the tail Mr.
(tediums had been guilty of bribery b).hie agents, and that
two persous specified by name had received brae s of money
also apeeillet ; but that Mr. Guinness wax not cognisant of
the acts of his agents in no bribing the electors.
RELATIONS WITH FRANCE.
Mr. RIME said he wished to put a queltion to the noble
lord at the head of the government relative to the recent
change of affdrs in France, where the government of King
Louis Philippe no longer existed, but a new one had been
established. He wished to ask the noble lord whether it
was not his iwent:on te refrain fee= sly interference with
the people of France, but to leave them et liberty to have
and to eet.k what gneernm, tit they pleased? (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL : I base no objection to answer the
question of my hon. friend the member for Montrose. We
have received the intiliigence, which is generally known to
the public, repeating toe changes which have taken place
io France ; mid I c m assure the hon. member that her
bleiesty's government has no intention whatever of inter-
feriqg with the form of government which the French
nation may choose to adopt, or in any way to meddle with
the internal affairs of that nation. [The announcement was
received with l.ud cheers from both sides of the house.)
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
Dir. M. J. O'CONNELL wiebod to call the attention •
the house to a breach of its privileges wnich had been com-
mitted relative to one of im tribunals—namely, en election
committee. The breach of privileges he c anplaineal of wan
contained in an article which bad appeared in a newspap r
called the Northern, Star, and for the better informatiou of
the house he would move hat it be read by the clerk at the
table. (The aricle which was then read, was to the
effect that the people should be informed that Mr. F.
Maule, the Secretary at War, had the nomination of the
election cemmittees, end had nominated Mr. Morgan
John O'Connell, the writer's (Mr. F. O'Cohnor's)
deadly enemy, to the Nottingham committee,
where he might be selected as chairman. The article fur-
ther complained that the subscriptiene for defending Mr.
O'Connor's return went on as if those for whom he bad
struggled int, tided to leave him to struggle by himself. (A
laugh.) While the subscriptions for Mr. Reynolds's defence
reached 2,0001. in one evening, his (Mr. O'Cionnot'a) sub -
scriptioa bad not reached 4001. in • week, or about five
farthings each from the m, miters of the Land Compaq.
Such were the inducements held out to any gentleman to
struggle for the light.; of the poor. (Laughter.) He (Mr.
M. J. O'Conn.ll) had brought this miner forward not be-
e use any flambee of the chairman's panel or the general
committee of elections cored for this sort of attack, but
be thought it right that erroneous accounts should
not go forth to the public on these subject.. The
secretary-at-war bad no pow( r to select anv mem
her for an election committee ; and, if fee bad,
the parties conceiving themselves injured could at the
proper time challenge upon cause. He thought this ex-
plena. ion sufficieut, hut, as a formal motion was newsary,
be should, to setidy the form, move that the printer of the
pest Star be summoned to the bar of that house.
Mr. lIASTIE seronded the motion.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said, that, as proprietor of the poper
to which allusion had been male, he should stand in place of
the printer for any offenee it might have e ammite il. He
then:ht that he hal only spoken consistently wish precedent
and rxp.rience in detignn-ing the elemio cemmittets
so many farces. It hehal said on) thing Innen illy off neiveta
the hen. mouth. r for Kt cry I e begged to tender to tied gen-
tleman Ms impel. Ile (Mr. O'Connor) hail suffered
before from electiem committees, haimer ' een ousted ter want
of qualificatee when he had a cl,ar 0,6401. a year, and did
not owe a .1/Wire hs the world. (Lau. fl .r.)
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that ha had only brought
the matter forward nn public motives, red, considering the
hon. member's 'melee. ',efficient, be begged leave to with-
draw his motien.—Motion by hays withdrawn.
EXPEDITION IN SEARCH OF Slit J. FRANKLIN.
Mr. WYLD, who was very indistinctly heard, was un-
derstood to ask whether there was any truth in the rumour
that, in eons- quenee ef the small le one ufferra, th-re was a
great diMenity in manning the ships compesing the above
pedalos% ?
Admiral DUNDAS said thit there was no difficulty what-
ever. Volunteer, were offering in abundance, and the ships
would very shortly sail fee their destination.
INCOME 'TAX.
Sir B. HALL raid ho had been &eked by several Irish
members to fix a dey for hie motion relative to the extendon
. of the incometax to Ireland, but he feared he could no: do
so as yet, seeing that it would depend on the debate on the
main qeettion. Ile should give them a decisive answer as
loon as he had ascertaieed how they intended to vote on
the increase. inennie tax for England. I Cheers.)
SCATS AND MEANS.—THE BUDGET.
Tito CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to
move the order of the day for a committee of ways and
means. He thought it desirabl• ho shoal i avail himself of
that importunity to vete moru fully than his the et
the head of tee government bad done, the state ofpublic

finances, and the course which the government intended to
pursue. The resent state of the finances appeared in a
Wince-sheet which had been laid on the table
of the house. The first part coutainsd a compa-
rison between the income and ordinary expenditure of
the country. From that sheet it appeared that there was an
excess of expenditure over income for the yearo endinfg the
sth January Mat, to the amount of 2,956,001. O that
sum, however, it would appear that 1.605,0001. was ex-
pended in the relief of distress in irelend. Now it had been
distinct. the iutention of the house that that expense should
have bee)n provided for out of the 8,000,0004 lean, and con-
sequently it could not be put &twit as a charge wt the cede
nary income. It was only fee, thergiore, to deduct that
item from *he expenditure, and deducting it, the gross excess
of expenditure over income up • Jan. last would be 1,400,0001.
His noble friend in stating the income for last yeer had included
4.50,0001. on account of the Chinese repayment. But that
sum had not lien received. It had remained in the eon- I
miesariet cheat, from which advances had been made for the I
Cape expenditure; and consequently the vote he bad oh- I
rained on a former evening would eueble hint to draw it, and
it would be received in the course of the present quarter.
This would reduce the excess of the expenditure to about a ,
million, at the end of the financial year. His noble friend I
had stated the probable excess at about 900,0001. It was !
not coy to anticipate what the income would be, because I
he was sorry to say that the symptoms of revivin trade
were not coming on so rapidly as write gentlemen hag d mitt- '
cipated. income of the preecet quarter would be • hort
of the conespeneing quarter of hut sear 400,000/. (Hear,
hear.) They would, however, have some extraordinary re-
celeste in excess before the sth of April ; and he was not pre-
pared to sey that the aineunt of the deficiency might not
be, to some extent, reduced. lie thought that, on the
whole, he might fix the execss of expenditure above receipt
up to April sth next at something short of one million.
(lieu',, hear.) He must sly that, cousidering the eircurn. '
stances through which we had passed, and the extraordinary
expenditure to which we had been subjected, he did not !
think the deficiency wee one at which there was any rearm I
to tette alarm. (Hear, bear.) Suck was the state of intone
and expenditure for the mean year, and he would now come I
to the probable amount of both item', fur the year ending
April 1819. His noh'e friend had stated what the
total expenditure would Le, but it was notorious I
that that expenditure was composed of various items,
over some of which there was power of reduction, but
others had been settled by act of parliament. First came
the interest on the public debt, that on the funded debt
twine 27,778,000/. per annum, and the untutored debt
7.12 000/. He meant Exchequer Bills. On
dthese latter the
int, n st in March would be reduce to 2i. per dTheiern, but
those due previous to that date must pay the M.Therefore
the total amount of the interest at the end of the financial
year would b. :M.030,0001. The charges on the ceiesolideted
feud also, which had been settled by act of parliament, must
be add, d, and on them they. was an increase for the Irish
consmindery. These charges amounted to 2,750.000/.
There were three sources of expenditure in what was
called the supply service. Of these a certain portion was for !
pensions and half pay, which could not be reduced. This, I
the eoneef, etive service, ansountei during the present year
to 3,660,0001. There, then, were thirty-five millions out of
the annual expenditure over which the house had no I
control whatever. (Hear, hear.) Even during the
pre sent year, with increased estimates, the total amount for '
the expenditure of which the gore rennin was respensiele
was 18,153,0001. It was theretore in round numbers not I
fifty-three millions, but eighteen millions, on which economy I
could be exercised. (Hear, hear.) it was eertainly true I
that the estimates had very much increased of late year., hut I
it was also true that they hail been increased with the will- I
ing consent of the House of Cemmues. (Hear, he .r.) Ile I
had commenced his public service as secretary to the Admi- I
tarty übout twelve years since, and having held that office I
for years, he could say that his principal duty had been de- I
fending the Admiralty saainst ch ogee for net waking settle !
Lions. (Ilene, hear.) This was the more rem .rkable as the ,
propositions of the government had generally been for the
increase of the effective, while the attacks of member of that I
house were generally for increase of the none tfective ser-
vices.
He had before hint various instances in which ex-
penses had been forced on the Admiralty by 'hat house;
among others, the increase of at. amen, which had been
warmly uretd by the hon. member for Montrose. Having
gone over the various items of increase in tee naval expendi-
ture in terms nearly similar to those used by the hon. mem-
berfor Sheffield on a previous ev, ning, the right hon. gen-
denim' prececitt d to say that it was not quite fair to charge
all these items as iectram of the naval esti-
mates. It wee not Itir in those clauses who
had most loudly called for increased facilities of
correspondence to cemplein of the increased expense of the
packet service. (Hear, hear.) Even the most economic '1
membas of dhat house often pressed for measures which
entailed considerable exp. n-e. The hon. member for
Mentro e had suggested the tidal commision; others thought
that lighthouses should cease to be a local charge, and be
added to the charge on the consolidated fund. This might
be a goad change, but it would cost /20,000/. a year. Again,
in the army expenditure, he fouud that of the increase
261,0001. ha I been incurred by the improvements in reai-
mental schools and hospital,. The paver'-meet was not to
blame if the improvements entailed expense. He could
only say that the necessary number of men could
be maintuiued (without the late improvements) at
640,0001. less than the amount charged. In the ordnance
department there had also been some increase; but that
increase was mainly owing to the improvements in the
armament of strainers, both in great guns and
muskets, and surely it was necessary that this branch
of the public terries should keep pace with every !
improvement in science. (Han, hear.) Another serious
expense during the previous year had been the greerel sub-
stitution or the percussion for the flint musket, which w
completely vindicated by the well known incident in the
Chinese war, when a party of British soldiers were unable
to tire their flint guns in consequeuce of the wet, and would
all have be en slaughtered but tor the opportune arrival of
a party of marines armed with percussion trunk The next
item was the miecellaneous estimates. Over these the govern
meat hod co.erel, and his noble friend had immediately
after his r.ccessien to office announced his intention of ap-
pointing a committee to inquire into them. But, by a return
which he held in his hand, it app-and that most of
the increases in those estimate a had been forced on the go-
vernment by the House of Commune. Harhours of r, fuge,
110,00)1., had been reeommen .ed by a select committee.
Then there we. 50,0001. for the Caledoeian COMO, and
17,0001. for auditors of poor-law unions ; 27,01)01. had been
voted to the commissioners of public works in Ireland on the
plea that they were under paid, end 101,0001. for pudic pro.
secutiens. Then there was 120,0001. for education, and
50,00.11. for the British Museum. With one or two other
items, this aggregate math, upwards of one million of in-
crease, which had been adopted by the government
in cenfertney with the wishes of the Howse of
Commons. (Hear, hear.) Another source of expen-
diture which had been alluded to as wasteful was the
collection of the rever.ue. There was no doubt but that
some saving might he made in the collection of the mentos ;
but then, a
e whenever a reduction of officers was promised,
there was cnerel clamour from the merchants that their
business was ointructed. 110 had spoken to his friend
and namesake, the chairmen of the Boatel of Customs,
on the subject, who had told him that in two or
three cases where it was thought that officers
might he withdrawn, the bare rumour of their removal
brought down a ',bower of rem oestre Imes from the merchants.
Re believed, therefore, he was correct is retying that the
gr, ater portion of the, increase was is attendance with the opi-
nion of farce majorities of the house, and in many iustauces
L. sonfor:uity with theopinions of the people—(hear)—and
not in consequence of any wish on the part of the govern-
meet unneecemrily to increase the expenditure of the coun-
try. (Hear, hear.) It was always the interest of the go-
vernment, and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in parti-
cular, to reduce the expenditure as far as was consistent with
the due mainteuence of the public enahlishmenta. It teas pos-
sible that reductions might be made in the force of the army
and nary ; that some saving might, by a careful teen:limn
tion and revision, be made in the mode of paying and the
expense of that force. Se also it might be possible to make
some r elections in the miscellaneous estimates ; but, though
this might lie possible, it was only right that he should on
the pert of the government state, that they had not
proposed a force sneerer thee they considered, under
the eireantstauces of the country, indispensable. (Hear.)
He need not do more than simply allude to events which
had occurred since they proposed that amount of force to in-
duce eiliedenths of Vie hon. members present to agree with
him that it would oat be expedient at the present time to
make any redaction in the ammiut of thenaval and military
tore, p. pesed. (Hear, beer.) On this mint, therefore,
the house must diatiuctly understarel that government ad-
hered to the maintenance of the fire* d !nendsd. With re.
geed to the expenditure for these services the came was no
iteuht in some te gree d.fferent, and no one would rejoice
mom than hiinselt if, by some clia ..ge in the mode of pay-
mein, or any wher arrangement, it should he fund that,
even in the estimates now on the lathe, tiny reduction of ex-
pense cool I he effected; and w.th regard to the mite
celLaneous estimates, which he admitted he had nut gone
very car fully through, if the result of inquiry should be
to show that any reduction could safely be made he should
be mast happy. He should, however, deceive the heure if
he said thet, ci,her as the result of further investigatien by
goy remelt or by a committee or the house, ho thought any
mate red reelection could be elected within the ensuing
fin rnsial year. It thould be rem, where] that in many cases
au 1r.cr..,0 1 expenditure would be uevisiosied be a reduction
of force. If they were to reduce the navy by 5,003 men
they c 111.1 not altord the meareof teller when regnire I, tied
lb y must pay off a large number of men, which would even
sieu an millions to the estimates. In like manta' it would
ho bed tcsnoiny, and occasion an ultimate 11.14 to the coons
try, to step the works in preemies in the dockyards and
where. 'the only way to reduce the expenditure safely was
to complete the wurke in hared, and then to reduce genteelly,
as eine,. I circumstances might from tient to time justify,
Geverument had shown their Anxiety to meet the down, ler
' econo ray in the 'auntie exeendiruns by preposing two t
mittet a, one to hoptire into the estimates for the army and
navy, and the In her the Ml,e,lialte.u.. He could not, how-
ever, say he expo,:-e'l, even we, n the Admen exertions of those
c met:et, es, that any intros, 'ine reduction would be effected,
whoever might b • the result in suirsequent years. With
tegart t the charges for the Kaffir wear d naval excess,
elfish had he: n already voted, the.e had, as on all preview
occestens its which such charm.' lied arieere—as in the case of
the Chios war and the Cansdirn ieencrectron—boen chsreed
to the expenditure of the ensuing year. His noble friend
had she ed the estimated income of the year at
51,250,0001. The customs they had estimated at 19,770,0001.
lie admitted there was great difficulty, after the two yens
we hel gone through, one of mereordiwary promenity end
tie .t er ore:Unordinary difficulty, in arri hag at any accurate
estimate of what the receipt from this wince would be. The
hest guide perhaps was the (mineras veripts of 1815-0, a year
f prv-petity, and the one which fellow. d immediately open
the redurtiens in our castor:le deities n.ade by the right- hon.
baruntt (B,r R. Petl), and they had taken the miaow at