The Express.
London, England, 1849-06-22 00:00:00

BRITISH GUIANA.

Mr. HUME po4o;;ii his motion on the state of this
colony till the 10th of July.
_ _

PALACE COURT.

Sir F. THESlGlncirtvenotic:tomoye, in the committee
on the Palace Court Bill, that the counsel and attorneys of
the court should be beard b) counsel at the bit' of the house.

IRISH CHURCH.

Mr. OSBORNE poste .ned the sth July his motion on
the euhject tif the Irish church.

STATE OF IRELAND.

Mr. HORSMAN gave notice br the sth July to call the
attention of the house to the state of Ireland.
FRANCE AND ROME.

Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice of his intention to put a
question, this day, to the noble lard the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs rispeceng oar relations with France and
R9OO.

Mr. DISRAELI'S MOTION ON THE STATE OF THE
NATION.
Mr. DISRAELI said he had been requested by several
hoe. members to name a day when his motion on the state
of the nation wculd come on. He bad Oct yet been success-
ful in obtaining a day for it, and thought be must appeal to
the generosity of the treasury bench to assist him in securing
• fair discussion for a question In which all were interested.
Mr. OSBORNE said that before the noble lord answered
the question, he must also appeal to his generosity; for he
was of opinion that the inject of the Irian church was of in-
finitely more importance than the state of the nation.
(Laughter.)
Lori J. RUSSELL said that if the motion on the state of
the nation was to be brought forward, it was desirable it
should not come on at a very late period of the session, but
be discussed in a full house. If, therefore, the hon. gentle-
man would take Monday, the 2nd of July, he (Lord J. Rus-
sell) had no objection to the motion bring brought on on that
day ; and he would postpone the orders of the day for the
purpose of allowing it to come on. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said tint, to prevent ary misconception,
he would publicly acknowledge the kindness and courtesy of
the noble lord, and would swept the day hs had fixed.
(Hear, hear )
CAPITAL PUNISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
Mr. EWART moved--.' That an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, praying that a return may be made,
showing how far crimes, for which capital punishments have
been abolished in this country, are still capital'y punishable
in the colonies and dependencies of Great Britain"—
Agreed to.
RETURNS. .

Lord D. STUART inquired why certain returns, ordered
upon his motion on the 25th of May, not yet been made.
81r G. GREY was understood to say that he was not
aware of the rause, but that the usual steps had been taken
for procuring the returns.
EVICTIONS IN IRELAND.
- • .•

Col. DONNE inquired whether, in the eases of evictions
in tte Hileash electoral division, the notices prescribed by
law were served, and if so, why the vice-guardians did not
(as was their duty) provide efficient relict for the persona so
ejected; and if the notices were not served, whether the
vice.guardians had ins ituted any prosecution against the
per-on s who had neglected to serve the notices.
Sir 0. GREY believed that in all the cases the law had
been complied with by the notion being served. But per-
haps the hon. and gallant member' would repeat his ques-
tion when the right hon. Secretary for Ireland was in his
place.
MEDICAL OFFICERS OF THE ARMY AND NAVY,
Sir D. L. EVANS rose to bring under the considers-
lion of the hoses the claims of the medical offi-
cers of the army and navy to military re-
wards and distinctions. He observed that though the
motion had no party attractions and little public 'Merest,
it concerned a body of 2,000 gentlemen engaged in the ser-
vice of their country. His object was that medical officers
should be placed on the same grade as they hi Id in the
armies of the continental powers. It might be said they
were civil officers ; but this was no ground for depriving
them of the distinction now sought. Previous to the list
war, the naval arid military exertions of this country were
only transient and intermitted; and hence it had probably
arisen that the claims of those impor.ant officers had been
overlooked. There were other climes of officers who might
qually well be excluded from the distinction, because of
their non-mtlitary character. The engineers, though em-
ployee: to superintend and direct, and even to lead in storming
p3rties, were not comma- ly engaged in battle ; and the same
remark applied t i the commissariat department. The hon.
and gallant enember.aftar referring to the Baltic expedition,
to a former war in India, and to the Peninsular war, showed
the benefits which had been derived in the latter war from
the services of the medical officers. He asked nothing specie

or peculiar for these officers, beyond the rank they enjoyed
is e very whet. European orsny. Napecon had included the
medical .%ffio,ve in his decoration', observing that it web impoi-
site!e ter their important senesces to be performed with z•,al
and efficiency unless they enjoyed the same honours as the
rest of the army. Tne civil cffice re in the army had a
' stealer ground of complaint than ever against the govern•
scent in eoust garnet, of some recent alterations which had
been made. He thought it a matter of reproach to the
country that no military distinctions had been conferred on
such men as Sir James McGregor, Dr. Howell, and Mr.
Guthrie. (Hear, hear.) He trusted the g meat
would now be disposed to give a favourable consideration to
the claims of medal officers. The hose. gentleman concluded
by muting a nadirion to the effect that as medical calico re in
the army were exposed to all the casualties and daugen of
war, it was not just or expedient that they should he ex-
cluded from military hocouts and distinctions in relation to
the rank ae.d the importance of their duties.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion on the ground that
every per-on who served his country wee entitled to the
honours which it held unt. He thought the treatment of the
li.aty and the naval surgeons was a disgrace to the govern-
meet.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that vs his right hon. friend (Mr.
F.M.ule) was not in the house, he would state what occurred
to him with regard to toe resolution of his hon. and gallant
friend. Le the first place he admitted the merits of the me-
dical officers of the army. He thought it would have been
better if his hon. and gallant friend had placed his =dim
on the ground that these officers, although they might he
laced amonot the combatacts in the discharge of their
du in, performed services which required great ate tidiness of
nerve, and that they were indebted to them
for saving many lives which otherwise would be lost
in consequence of wounds received on the field of bottle.
When the hon. and gallantgentlemon Paid that the engineers
we re non-combatant-, he most say that they were frequently
exposed to great danger. It was hardy lair to say that the
medical often were excluded from all rewards, because it
was well known that they received medals as well as others,.
Nor would it be just to am that civil reveres hail been with-
held from them. He could mention the names of Sir 4.
hl•Gregor, Sir C. Forbes, and others, as instances to the
contrary. And as to the order of Knight Cemmauder of the
Bath, which had been conferred en civilians as well as mili-
tary men, it might be considered whether the reward misfit
not be couferred on medical officers. (Hear, bear.) But
he should like to consult the Commander-in Chief and hi.
right hon. friend the Secretary at War before declaring in
what manner he thought it should be d ene. (}1• ar, hear.)
The subject had been under consideration with r. gird to the
late campaigns, but nothing had been done with respect to it.
It was a matter more properly belongi g to the executive
than to that house. He would therefore move the previous
queeti-n.
Co,. DUNNE said there was no military man who would
not join in the sentiments expressed by the host. and gallant
offi-er respecting the medical officers of the army. (Hear.)

_ .
Sic D. L. EVANS mid that after the remarks of the
no' le lord, he s.ouid not press his motion.

Col. THOMPSON be:irved that every officer who bad
hnrd then• ble lurd, was satisH•d with his r. maths. If he
was not too late he would thtrelure suggest inn tie " previ-
ous questio " should not be put.
Sir C. BURRELL bore tuitimouy to the valuable ssrvices
of the medical officers.

C■pt. PECHELL said that there was no mention of naval
surgeons in the risolution of his hon. and gallant friend.
H •as sure that was only an oversight, end that the
medical officers of the navy would not be pr. judiced on that
account. (Hear )
Sir D. L. EVANS said it was a matter of course that
the navy surgeoas would be CObti;ered as will at the army
surgeons.
. . . . . . .

The rt solution and the amendment were then withdrawn.
EQUALIZATION OF POOR RATE.

Lord NUCiENT, in moving for a committee to inquire
into the pract (ability et better providing tor the mainte.
fence of the indigent poor of E gland and Wale., by an
equal end general apportionmeet of the burden of the s .me,
said he was aaare that this sae not • very inviting •uhject,
at that time esp,cielly, when there were other beide-
tions of a more agratable and convivial character to
take hon. gentlemen elsewhere. His molten was simply for
inquiry : he had no specific plan to proptee. The pres.nt
mode of rating was full of inequality and injustice, eing
based on no good general principle. The source of all the
evils arising out of the law of 1834 was the mak-
ing contributions for the benefit of the poor as-
sume the form of local taxation; out of that sr MI all the
bickerings between different classes, and all the injustice of
which be complained. there was one pint on which he
differed from mo,t of the petitioners, namely, as to the pro.
prie ty of retaining local supervision. From the time when
the contribution became general local control mud cease,
seeing thet all the benefit derivable tram it would cease.
The assessment upon rateable property varied from one
farthing to fourteen shillings in the pound ; and there were
some casts within his own knowledge in which the rate had
been as high as 25e. In dealing with this port of the sub
jest he would begin with the metropolitan parishes. Proms
report of the poor law commissioneis printed this year it ap.
peered that in the year ending Lsdy Day, 1847, the coat of
the in-door maintenance of the poor under the Poor Law
Amendmeed Act amounted to 769 6901., and in the year
ending Lady Day. 1848, it had increased to 955,7001. The
esteblishment and salaries ane.uneed, in the first period, to
762,4201., in the second to 970 9581., exceeding, in the latter
cue, by 15.0001. the whole charge fur the indoor mainten-
ance of the poor. Anether return presented still more
astounding fact.. From • return presented on the 21st of
March, it appeared that there had been expend, d on account
of the maietenance of the poor in England and Wales dur-
ing the year ending the 25th of March, 1848,
8,047,4891. Of that amount 6,168,7651. was expen-
ded in the actual relief of the pool ; the residue
of nearly 2,000,0001. was spent on the mere machinery of the
law. What was the retitle. proportion of the asaesamenta in
the different parishes T Why almcst universally the poorer
parishes were rated far higher than tee ri:!er. The poorer
parishes in the outskirts of London were rated far higher
than those parishes in wfich were square. end carriages and
clubs and Corinthian colonnade—those parishes which were
giants in luxury being pigmies in the payment of rates.
(Lsughtt r.) It appeared from the evidence of Mr. Hell, a
poor law commissioner, given in 1847, that B. rmondoey was
charged 3s. sd. in the pound ; West London, including Saf-
fron-hill and St. Andrew's, Holborn, 2s 9d ; East Landon,
including the neighbourhood of Whitt chapel, 2s. lid.; St.
Saviour's, 2s. 10d. ; Bethnal-green, 21. 31d. On the
other hand, the rating in the perish of St. James,
Westminster, was Is. lid. in the pound, less than half
this amount in St- Andrew's, Holborn in St. George's,
Henoversquare, it was 9d., in 1847 and 71d, now, loss than
one quarter of the amount in one of the four parishes speci.
fled, much less than one thiri of the amount in two others,
and less than one-filth of the amount in Bermondsey. More-
over, the rate was always less in proportion to the value of
the property rated. From a return presented last
session it appeared that of the parishes and townships in
England and Wales 1,650 were rated at from • fartbing to
6d. in the pound ; 3,327, from 6d. to le. ; 8,380, from Is. to
4e. ; and 383, from 4s. to 14s. Here was a variation from a
farthing to 14e. in the pound, without taking into
account the extra-parochial parishes, of which, when
the census of 1841 was taken, there were 536, con-
taining 17,585 inhabited houses, all rated nil," for
the support of the poor. The same anomaly prevailed
in the country as in the metropolis, with regard to
the imposition of rates on the poorer and the richer
parishes.
- -

Alderman SIDNEY, in seconding the motion, went into
various details to show the inequality of the present poor
rating; there were parishes within his knowledge which
paid only 3d. or 4d. in the pound, while other parishes paid
35., 4s , nay, so much u Bs. in the pound.

Mr. BAINES said that the motion of the noble lord dif-
fered in terms from the notice given by him before Easter,
and, materially, from several of his notices on the sub-
ject at different periods since Easter, but tae general purport
of all these notices, as of the motion now actually before the
house, was to throw the relief of the poor of the country upon
the general revenue. In his opinion this was a moot mils-
chieircus proposition, and calculated to have • seriously per-
nicious effect upon the country. But for one incidental re-
' mark in his noble friend's speech, it would stem as though
the noble lord was ignorant of the committee which sat two
years ago upon the subject of poor law removal and upon the
law of settlement, and certainly it would appear
as though his nob'e friend did not know that
by that committee 'the closest inquiry was bud.
tested into the very questions which tte noble lord had
prcposed a committee to investigate. (Hear, hear.) If the
noble lord would refer to the reports from that committee,
under the heads of national revenue, payments, and of conso-
lidated funds, union rating, and I other cognate refer-
ences, be would find that these points had already been most
elaboratAy inquired into by a most competent committee,
of most competent witnesses, and that all the practical in-
formation on the subject was already before the house.
(Hear, hear.) Had the noble lord come forward with any
distinct proposition, founded upon the evidence supplied by
that committee, and upon its reports, the matter would have
assumed a different aspect as regarded its elates
upon the attention of the house. The principle
of a general poor rate he regarded as calculated
tee bring about the most mi,chievous, the most dangerous con-
sequences. With the distinct opinion he en'ertai•ed upon
this subject, he should call upon the house to resist the
motion.
Mr. MACKINNON denounced the propcsition as a most
mischievous proposition. Were it once carried out, the
principles of aecialism and communism would become
established in this country, and the noble lord, who styled
himself a descendant of the Philter/emits, would find him-
self ranked as a humble follower of Leiden Rollin and Id.
Prudhoe. He feared his noble friend was in the way of be-
coming • discip.e of Ledru Rollin's, and he could not too
strongly warn him against such sentiments.

Mr. BROTHERTON entirely agreed with his hon. and
learned friend at the head of the poor•law department, that
the adoption of the plan recommended by the noble lord
would be fraught with no advantage to any of the parties. He
thought it would be most unwise to give any countenance to
such a proposition; but at the ism; time he must admit that
there was very great inequality under the present system of
rating. He recommended that they should adopt a union
rate instead of a township rate, for he believed that the con-
sequence of such a system would be mat advantageous.

Mr. WODEHOUSE supported the motion on the sole
ground that the adoption of the free trade policy of 18461
rendered a revision of the public burdens necessary.
Mr. PETO.—I feel that th- member he A)l^abury would
have done well to have confined his motipn to a committee
of inquiry into the inequality of the rating throughout the
country, to the di s'rableneis of abolishing the law of settle-
ment, and the repeal of the Poor Removal .Act of 1846, The
city and county of Norwich were forme' into I uni',a in the

se the city within the
reign of Queen Anne, and ccmpri•ltenddlythaaveits' such
would word
its
t tyap,
and the parishes immediately around it. When the p "11
ny
moval Act was proposefrd for the c rcsideration of the 11Z
as, in my opinion, warranted the suspension of the ma...
until furl er inquiry wag made. They stated their
heirs;
ilB46ble meettirjtiriousato
that it would add 5,0001. per annum to the rate.. Noe
what has been the workiugs ? In the year 1316, waa
Nen.settled poor, permanent, 28/. lOs ; ncn settled caw
poor, 731. 2s. : total, 1031. 12s. In 1817: Non-settled ga;"
permanent, 3.2661. 12a. ; non-settled easu.l Do.'
6.511 6s. total, 3,9171. 81. flel. There were inhabiing" tiy
rity, in houses of the value of 61 and uncbr, 22,0.52 perm.,
of these 13,546 did not belong to the city. In the um.;
parishes around the walls, 8,003 belonged to Nor,
7,371 did not. And here I must ask the house to conode;
that the city is now paying one-third of its entire rental it
poor's rates,and are they paying it to those who may he ee.,
sidered its own poor ? Far from it In the aericulturd
parishes around very many cutages:had been pulled don, The inhabitants, forced to ecru into the d'y to mideif
the become chargeable and are removed, they Evernt
bane almost as awn as the parties teturn who twit
them to their legal perish. Tne city had, within a mon
space, removed 351 paupers, and found upwards of 320 ire.
modiately return. Can they con'inue this chili of mom?
Where ia the local gov, rnment, the paternal care ti
which we hear so mut.h from the advocate, of the mutt
state of things ? Is the proximity of sire calculated to too:
mote the virtue or his family ? Can such want of tig
comforts of his home do other than reader him indifferent to
all those things which must in their exercise make him
useful man ? The law of settlement is a curse to the poor
man. It was intended kindly by its original framer., sod
might have been use ul then, but now it bud s the Geld of
leis ex, r ion, confines and cramps his energies, and taskus
his muter anxious to place the burden of his sup.
port on other per:she, than the one in which h.
has all his life Leg laboured and lived an hottest man. 1
mould mention, sir. the case of two men who bmught ap
'lb ge families, who received in two successive years pumice
bringing up the largest families a ithout parochial aid. The
Pots Removal A t was menti,me d to their master—theydd
not belong to hie ptrish—their large families were now La
ohj ct of fear—they were both discharged ; the one hero
the inmate of a gaol, the other of a lunatic stylem
I trust I have shown enough, sir, to prove there is not mly
ground fur inquiry, but immediate inquiry.
- - -

Mr. ELLIS complained of the iaequ,lity of the poor rite.
It was a very great questioa, and required to be thor,uo7
gone i..t.0.
Mr. ROBINSON, who was indistinctly beard, was mte•
stood to say that be considered the evil of continuing th.
present system as much greater than that of haviog s cs,
tionsl rste. lie hoped that by next s sin gurrrosiest
would have devised some plan by which the evil would be
remedied.

Mr. W. BROWN was understood to oppose the motion.
Mr. P. SCItOPE thought that goverment had acted
wisely in refusing this cAsamittee, but he must say that
the result of the preceedings of the committee white sits
few years ago went to this tact, that the time for inquiry en
passed, lied that the time for legislation was commencing.
Mr. CARDWELL hoped they had now arrived at the end
of this discussion. lie thought it was probehle that this
motion would not be pressed to a division. He thought it
was quite impossible that, at this period of the seniors, any
committee could meet and discuss all the complinted
and mani'eld questions, and present a worthy report. Then,
on the other hand, they had had a very lure dimussin of
many of those grievances which those who represented
large constituencies knew were pressing heavily. Tntt
wst
a satisfactory result. He thought that those who oe-
plained of undue pressure of texation would feel more *Ms
tied it the right hon. gentleman would tak- on himself the
responsibility which fairly belong. d to hies. and end,sons
to remove all the difficulties which in their nature wen
capable of bring removed, rather than that the ques
tien should be turned loose amo,est bitten men.
bets of a select committee, at the elate of the
session. The places which mon felt the inequality
of poor rate tare ion were the western counties, the
principality of Wales, the we tern ports of Scotland, sad
if there was one plaice that felt it more than another it
was Liverpool, which had no less than 296,000 unhappy
miserable immigrants from the sister coui.try. It wu to
blame to the sister country that these immigrants cams to
particular pans of England, which were most accessible, hat
it affected Meal taxation, and created a feeling of peplum.
In 12 months they had considerably more than 300,0(0
grants. Of these more than 120,000 were positively clestitutepers
sons, there were 10.000 per month on the ay. rage. The mass
que nee was it had doubled the Frio? rates. Ine less Ali
amongst these miserable creatures themselves had been rust
ermalling. The re bad been lost ten Roman catholic elm-
men, one protestant clergyman, m any par child officers,
and many medical men. The esil effect on the laboatiag
Deputation it was impossible to describe. What cou.d then
120,000 people become when they touted themselves leaded
in a strange place ? There were but three things they
coal choose: •hsy must become paupers, or vagrants, or
thieves. In 1816 there we re 18,000 immigrants in Lim-
pool. In 1818 the number had arisen to 22,000. In
1845 there were 3,800 summary convictions and c =vale for
felony ; in 1818 it bad risen to 7,700, very nearly double.
The Irish were only one fourth of the population ; they were
ene-half of the pnsoners. The gaol was calculated to con-
tain 500 prisoners ; when the report was written it contained
1.100 prisoners. Conceive the misery which that indicted
on all the community. Industrious classes, accustomed to
labour for wages+, Could nor obtain wages for the rompetitioa
in the I ebour market. What were the sufferings of these
people when they came over ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that his own opinion was that
means should be taken to check the influx el purrs into
this country, hut he could not consent, by raising artificially
the price of the pas-age from Ireland to England, indirectly
to attempt to cheek the influx of Irishmen into this country.
His own opinion was that it would he a most unjust prcceeds
ing.
Mr. SPOONER put it to the noble lord to withdraw his
motion. However he might agree with the ohjsct which
the noble lord had in view, he thought it Inner that he
should withdraw the motion.

Mr. BLANEY said that there was one important point
which every ho-. member who had spoken bad missed in
discus•ing this qurrion. Th• representatives of different
places were anzi.,us to shift the burthen of the poor from
their own shoulders to their neighbours, but nob gly asked
why it was that, while the upper classes were growing
richer and the middle clams rising every city, the condition
of the ;exit swit gradually becoming worse and worse?
(Hear, hear.) Considering the pail •Ithe session, while hs
was glad that attention had been called to the suhject, he
concurred in recommending the noble lord to withdraw his
motion.

Col. DUNNE was grateful to his noble friend for having
brought this subj et under the consithratien of the house, as
the discussion would, he expected, do good both to England
and Leland. He would remind hon. members who were so
alarmed at the idea of a national rate, that a natioasl rats
bad already been inflicted on Ireland, and that its manage•
meat was placed wholly beyond local administration or in-
fluence. (Hear, hear.)

•
Lord NUGENT, in reply, uid that be had no wish to
pledge the house to the entire of his opinions en this subject,
while asking for inquiry. Of course he should b)w to the
decision of the house; but whiten( r that decision might be,
he trusted it would be owns to on the principle of the ma
tion, and not on any incidental observations of his.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but ultimately the
motion will negatived without a division.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Mr. NAPIER presented several petitions against the sys-
tem of nail mal education carried on in Ireland.

Mr. 0. A. HAMILTON said that in bringing forward the
motion of which he had given notice relative to the subject
of education in Ireland, he was happy to say that it would
not be necessary that he should trouble the house at any
great length. (Hoar, hear.) He wished to say in the out-
set that his anxious desire was to promote such a settlement
of the quesiion as should be fair and equal towards btth
parties. He complained last year that while toleration in
England was extended to every relights' sect, and which,
with regard to the Roman catholic, was carried to tee
extent of sanctioning a departure from scriptural principle
in segud to their schools, the same toleration was nct et-
tended to the clergy and the laity of the 'stab ished church
in Ireland. He had a'so endeavoured to show that every
denomination of Christians,. protestant, Roman catholic, or
dissenting,held that no system of education should be tolerated
which was not based on religion' and that the se W. hsoiog
long attempted in vain to establish &united system of seculu
education, at length felt it better to recognise the principle
that religion should be the Ix cis of education, requiring is
reference to protestant schools, that the Scripture should be
read, and in regard to the Rowan catholic schools making
that religion through its teachers the means of instruction.
But while this system of toleration prevailed in England—the
state aimommodating i•salf to the consciences of
all —in Ireland a system so objectionable prevailed,
so much at variance with the fundamental prin-
ciples of the reformation, and so contrary to the
construction which the clergy pas' on their ordination
vows, that they had found it impossibly to pat ake or joia in
it. The objection was that the managers must exclude the
Bible from the school, or the children from its use, unless
with the consent of the parents and guardians. The free use
of the Scriptures was so. much a fundamental part of the re
formation, that he could not suppose how any pro-
testant clergyman could be expected to join on
any system of education in which it was not re,
cognised. He was' making no charge against the national
board or their management—be did not deny that there
might be schools in Ireland in connexion with the state in
which the Bible was used—but what protestant or dissent-
ing clergyman would patronise a school when the Bible wee
to be used only at the caprice of parents or guardians ?
The
Bishop of London, on a recent occasion, had given his high
sanction to the course taken by the Irish protestant clergy-
men, by saying, that if he was one of them be should feel
• himself obliged to act in the same wav ; and the talented
' Bishop of Ossory bad also shown clearly that there were
grounds for conscientious scruples on this subject. Another
• objection to the national system in Ireland was its tendeacy to
secularise all education. A mere secular system of education
never could, and never ought, to succeed in these c, untries j
it was equally repugnant to Roman Catholic and
Protestant. He came now to refer to a society from
' whose exertions the protestants of Ireland had been much
benefited—a societ I which had been established after moo/
vain attempts had been made to induce the government to
modi'y the national system. By the rules of this society,
the authorised version of the Scriptures and the Church
Catechism was required to be read, and the ether formitbe
• of the church to be taught in the schools, under the directl
of the bishops and clergy. This sv'tem corre'r°"°
with that of the national society of

Be

concluded by mowing "that an address be presented
to her fdejesty, praying that she will be graciously
pleased to direct that such a modification of the e3stem
et national education in Ireland may be made as may
remove the tonsc.eutious obj•ctibns which a large proportion
of the clergy and laity of the established church entertain to
that system se at present carried into operation ; or ark. r-
etire, that means may be taken to enable those of the clergy
sad laity of the established church who entertain such eon•
seientieue eetions to extend the blessings of scriptural
sensation is Ireland.
Nr. NAPIBR seconded the motion.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE thought his noble friend bad kept
the word of promise he made at the ope-ing of his speech—
namily, that he would sot utter any remark that would be
serroive to any hon. gentleman is the house who held
°pinkies different from the., which he termini. otiosely es- er-
tainted. If he should he inclined to take e xception to any
part of the speech, it would be to th et 'n whorl allusion had
been mode to the pratestants of Ireland Whilst giving
*epergnes to the fretless and oonvictiosam of the protestant*
of the sister country, Ms hen. tercel seemed to target that
though he might Ili the representative of the majority of
the protestant, of the established church, yet that
there were other protestor% who dill: red from
bim upon this qa. rim, and who were actuated by mode.*
as cocmjeliteugls as were tho-e who coincided in his views.
(Hear.) The great election he (Sir W. Somerville) had to
the motion was this, that let the non gentleman pros tit it
in what aspect he might it simply amounted to this, that it
was was the &Willem of the present national a, stem of edu-
cation in Ireltnit, because when ono* they divest.ed that sys-
tem of its universal operation, if he might be as. pet mitled to
say, from that moment its distinctive featutas vanished,
and the boom would be driven to rec *pile the deems
of every wilt:Iola sect in Ireland. They must than
lave a grant for the established church, a grant for the
yoresbyterian church, a grant for toe Roman ca• holt:
church, and a grant for every other sect that claim d
it. He denied that the Roman catholic* were in fa-
vour of having a distinct religiose sy-tom of education ;
on the contrary, they were for having a united system
established. (Hear, hear ) Ha bodeved that 600, out of
the 2,000 clergy of the Irish church, supported the Retinas!
system, and that es regarded the laity a still larger prop r-
two entertained opinioss sisals: to those field by the 500
clergy. The pro sbyterian Steffy we utmost to • man is
favour of the national system. He believed that a majority
of the prof. slants of Ireland were la favour of it ; and as the
system had been taken sins age of by the great majority
of the Roses cathohe population it was Lot too much to say
that it had a fsir claim to be desoninaurd " national." The
15th report of the corminasioners showed that it bad exe
tended from 3,825 schools aid 465,654 &choler* in the year
1817 to 4,100 schools and 5/0,496 *cooler, in 1948, thereby
exhebitisg a total increase of 284 schools and 104,&32
scholars in the space of twelve months. (Cheer,) He
cautioned the house, therefore, not to be hary
is disturbing a system which must eventually trine forth
geed fruits,and most probably meliorate the ,cool condition
wf tke coestry.
Lord BERNARD contended that the system was sot
Maly opposed to the opinio of the large body of the proton-
teat clergy and laity, bat also strongly opposed is the breasts
et his It 'man catholic isllow-souotrymen. He had himself
presented a petition that evesicg Innis a numerous meeting
in Cork, praying fur the extension of the Church E location
Society, between which and the national spite to the noble lord
drew 'contrast, sad quoted several fig uro in favour of the for-
mer, and shooing that the lacrosse of scholars attenctio.g their
schools surpassed that of the national system.
He had never yet heard anyone my that the rational system
of education was favourable to the prop &Litt church, and be
Maud upon the house to abandon it, and to endeavour to is-
pleat in the minds of the Irish people the trotta of Scripture,
wlikk w.O d secure to them a temporary blueing here, and
as sternal Mendes feereafh r.
Ms. 1100 RE regretted that the motion had bees ix
premed in terms so petty and seer-ries. The national sys
tem of education was supported ty the majority of the Pro-
tenant clergy, not becaus they thought it the best system,
bat the best possible under the ciocum.tanor • It was opposed
by all who were most earnest and most uncomptomising in
their views, who Witted to assume that the points on which
men might happen to differ wore less eeeeatial than those on
which they happened to agree. The second resolution was
particularly objectionable. It asked fur a further grant to
iho church schools. Had the hon. gentleman forgotten
the 800,0601. already appropriated and pe col ? (near
leer.) Under these circumstances e could not support th;

Sir A. BROOKE referred to a former statement which he
had made ut the comparative numben of *dented and un-
educated is the province of Ulster, and repeated that up.
wards of a million MGM were receiving *decagon in Ulster
than in the province of Connaught.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the present application came
from twiothirds of the protestant clergymen ut Ireland, and
was backed by the petitions of 60,000 of the laity. Its hoped
the house would not refuse to listen to such an application.
Lord C. HAMILTON said this was a sut jrct on which his
constituency felt deeply. The sight hon. 8, attar, for Ire-
land, in his statement, had avoided all the real ditti-
slices of the question; he had not fairly met
any of the objeciione that were made to the system.
Two-thirds of the schools ander the national board were not
subject to its rules. Tht non-vested schools were net bound
by their rules. There were 423 prnhyterian clergymen
patrons of national schools, out it would be • mistake to
'pon that these were all vested schools. There wire only
28 preshyterian clergymen patrons of vested schools'
there wen 395 patrons of non-vested schools.
He believed the principle of the bond were go:el
it they wire properly anted out. Nothing could he better
than their books sad their :raining schools. But still they
did not carry out their own ptiociples. There was no
united tyres% of education, properly so called. There
must, therefore, be something is the system that at
least required emendagon. When be told the house
that in 1,230 of these schools the religious ez,
tracts" were et laded, he thought they would
agree with him that there was something faulty in the eye-
tem—when the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, on a Isle net
lion, stated that he would be the lest perron to support the
system of national *decease if he believed that the Bible or
the religious extracts were prohibited. It was a curious fact
that the automat of crime had always been in proportion to
the absence of the rel Lion element in education. It appeared
from • return lately presented that in Ulster there was I
offence to 1,629 of the population, in Minster 1 to 745,
in Connaught 1 to 360. That den. piing ratio almost
exactly represented the relative oumner of schools ia the
three provinces from which religious instruction was ex-
cluded. (Hear, bear.) Such was the entail result of the
System. (Much interruption, and lout: cries of divide.")
Of the 120,000 children receiving education, supported by
the es.abliehed church, a very large numb. r were Roman
catholies, and en actual majority dissented from that church.
Let not parliament suppose that in supporting the education
under the national hoard, it supported a ante I system. Thi
only system which could claim public support on that
ground, was the church system ; and he hoped that on sc-
ampi of the number of Roman ca holies, as well as protest.
ante who bundled by that system, such support would be
mond.
Lord J. RUSSELL was very sorry to be obliged again to
invade upon the house on a subject which was so holly dis-
cussed is the previous series. Now, having heard the ob-
*none of the noble lord, he must say that the system
adopted in 1831 and 1832 having been continued from that
time under different governments and different lord lieute-
nants, and having now arrived ate point at which, according
to the last report of the commissioners, there were upwards
04,000 schools established, and 500,000 children educated, in
connexion with the bond, there ought to a very strong can
indeed to induce the house to say that they would put an
end to a system which had given education to many poor
children in Ireland who never had the advantege of intrue-
tion before it came into operation. The noble lord was,
be thought, most inconsistent in his objections. No one con-
tended that the national system was perfect, or thst it was
the best that mild be adopted if the parents and teachers
were ell of one ailed with nap Cl to religion
(ber, hear.) What the original authors and peo-
nage& of these schools said was, that experience
showed that the benefits of education could not be diffused
without suiting the mode of conveying it to those who were
to receive it. One of the first °banks whirh presented it-
self was the ohjeetion of Roman catholic parents to intro°.
tion in the protestant scriptures The Roman catholic
clergy and laity regarding the protestant version as incorrect,
odoeation in it could not be made compulsory. The noble
kat said there were a great number of the national echoola
which were not in complete union with the national board.
It was not true, however, that they did not comply with the
regulations. There were, indeed, some particulars in which
the patron of • school was alowed to take his own course.
For instance, a patron connected with the church might
say that from ten to eleven in the morning there
should be instruction in the protestant scriptures and
catechism, and that during that time peculiar doctrines
should be taught, but that from eleven till the time when the
nileml wee closed there should be no instruction which 'Gold
not be given equally to Roman eathodcs end protestant
children ; that no Instruction should be forced upon children
of which the parents disapproved. He (Lord J• Russell)
would certainly have thought that such an arrangement
would rather diminish the objection of the noble
lord, Si evincing coinderable latitude in the plan
of the satiated board. (Hear, hear.) It wee objected
that in a great number of schools, no scripture extents even
were read. Now ea that t the Church Education Con-
mines urged la 1843 two a ves. First, they complained
these scripture extracts mew wry Partial. 8110•11•1 •
manifest kaaiag towards Heim catholic tenets; sad ea
singularly !sough, they tomplained that the animal board
did not mast ea the reading of those extract*. The board
had, is likellenien, acted very judiciously in the matter.
In 1831 and 1833 it seemed to hits slant isspeseible that
Roman eathelle archbishops could egree to the
use of extracts, of which a protestant •rebbisboP
was the author or compiler. With regard to 2.801)
schools, the difficulty had, it appeared, been dot over. That
was a much neater number than he had imagined would
receive the extracts; the reef refused to do so—Romeaj
catholies on the mead that they exhibited a protestant Nee,
and Pratestaab on the itrnend that the bias was the other
way, But it was quite an unfounded supposition, that be-
cause then @streets were not used, there must be an absence
of all religious instruction. The object aimed at was to
give as much secular instruction ae possible in school hours,
and to leave religious instruction to the respective religions
teaches'. He had alone undenteod that the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy were most anxious that the poor children of
their communion should receive religious instructionj and
he believed they were tent :ulnas imparting it. (Hear.)
Now.sehat was the alternetive mowed by the hon. gentleman
who had introduced this motion? In the filet place, he
proposed that tire house ahead adopt • modification of the
system. Modification was a very gentle term ; bat, as used
by the sable lord, it append is mean a compulsory main

of the scriptures by Roman-catholic children whose gnaws
had a conscientious objection to the readieg of them. (He ar,
hear ) In other words, of this half a million of childreit, the
effect would be to drive away a great number from the
schools at once. While they would not succeed in giving
them scripture instruction, they would, in making the at-
tempt, d, pries them of secular. (Hear, hear.) That was
the real stumbling-blcck which bad always stood in the way
of !Mime' education in Ireland. The lot alternative of
the hen. gentleman wee that if there were no medifi-
, Mita of the aational system, a grant should be made to pre-
lastest' to moist them in instructing children in protestant
doctrine,. To such a plan there were two very strong aim-
Moan The first was that it could hardly be adopted without
eatendoig a Limiter benefit to Roman catholies. (Hear,
boar.) The aid given by the CoMmitt e of
I Privy Couucil out of the national funds to Roman
catholic schools in this country left the religions educati n of
the children entirely under the control of the Roman catholic
clergy, the secular education alone being subject to inspec-
'ion. If • vote were proposed which gees to some three or
four hundred thousand children io Ireland au education ex-
clusively Roman catholic. those who now proposed this
modification would then assail the government tor teaching
religious error. (Hear, hear.) His other objection to the
proposal was that the fonds of the established church in Ire-
laud ought to be sufficient fur the instruction of the poor if
that church. (Hear, hear) The noble kid had spoken as
though the schools which he favoured were so sorely
persecuted that the gov. Tamest did not allow the doe-
trims of the church of England to be taught in them.
(Laughter.) Why, proteatauts were at copulate litorty is
establish, with the all of their cheery, such schools as they
thought proper. (Hear, hear.) 11, as the noble lord said,
Roman catho.ies were eater to procure scriptural instruction
Ia Church of England schools, there was no objection to
those schools brio, ,stab hued by individual.. (Hear, ham.)
The protestant laity wets in poseesaion of a great (art of the
property of Inland, ecd, therefore, he thought they
ought not to complain that they had not sufficient means of
granting education to schools of their own. lie had quoted
Write iu that house an observation which appeared to him
to lie at the bottom of that ques ion. A mousiest bishcp of
the last century haying been accused et cur tihuting, an
di se se, books of religion and morality,r. plied, that he she u'd
be very glad if all the people is his Woes.* were good
protesten a, but that if he could not make them so he shoutd
he very glad tore them good catholic, good Christians,
good anything (hear, hear); and 'hat it ea* ter that reason
that he had distrilm,ed the book.. (Hear, hear.) Teat
was, fa his (Lord J. Russell's) opinion, • Van sentiment for
the state to adopt with regard to education in Ireland; and
the existing system, having bets attrudel with beneficial
maids fur 17 years, he hoped it would not now be
ate, el. (Ch. ers )
Mr. NAPIER said he could respect a good eitholic as '
muck es any man but n-it a protesters who belied the prin-
ciple he bad protessed. (Ch-ers ) It was all very well for
the sable lord to tell the , srochial clergy of Ireland to sup-
port the education of th it 11 mks; but when their stipends
amounted to only 1701 a year, it would be difficult to
prove that they were able to do so They ask d
tor a grant bemuse j raiment, were unable to
avail themselves cooseitatiomly of the existing system.
The noble lord debated the question as if the qu stion were
whether they .:ere to withdraw the grant from the national
schools. The cuss was a simple one ; the prottatints only
melted for common justice, and that they would
abandon.

- -
Mr. REYNOLDS a.id that it bad been &served of some
of his felaow•cuuntrymen (het they ware remorkabie for
one quality, six , that they were grievance-mongers Tne
charge was fully exemplified by the other side tonight. When
he read the notice on the paper be thought it unmet a moan.
'lnitial .•f tb•• system. The bnn. member for Tyrone did not
confine hirarelf toe moth he.Ati..h ot,he sigh la, but make an
attack on the satire sr tem. Re ought to have delivered the
speech whim the gra-it was under the considern•ion of the
lints %Let him remind the hos. member for the U. ivenity of
Dublin that there were protestant tennis i Ireland, end
awry one of these Tre.olll, before he was p sunned to take
possession of his Hein', was compelled, wider an set posed
in the reign cf I{•nry VIII , to tabs an oath that tie would
maintain school in his parish. (Cries of •' Divide, divide ")
Ile slaked he was not °blind to address is many men with
wl in waistcoats; if he bad not, he should have been heard
with greater patience. Let fir•n. gentlemen recollect that Ire.
land wee a Roman eethola annoy, with a plpuletioar °reeves
millions of Rotuma outtalks; there were 750,0(10 proterants,
and to guard t►e epiri•ual wants of thee. prides/Ante she had
10 bishops, 2 archbishops, and 2,•`.00 c:ergy. (Question,
question.) It hal bean said that if the pros city was divided
amused the clergy of Ireland it would only come to 1701.
per heed; tas knew a certain archbishop who, fe r ding
nothing at all had 3 001.11. a year. The hon. member finding
it impossible to obtain a further hey ind in c'ns• quence of the
impatience of the house, most d the a• journment of the
debate.

Mr. DISRAELI hoped that the hon. member would
wi hdrow his motion. Ertry writ.' he bad said had been
listened to. Surely that was all he could expect. (Llughter.)
Mr. REYNOLDS said he had been intemipted by t►e
president of the Peace Society.
Lord J. RUSSELL interceded for a hearing for the hen.
member.

Mr. REYNOLDS withdrew his motion for wlymenment,
and observed is eot.elusion that the national sch,el system
was in. 4.f the best things that English legislation had (set
done for Ireland.
The house divided—
For the motion lO2
Apish:it it
LOSS OF LIFE IN COAL MINE?.

Mr. WILD moved t.r a selezt committee to inquire into
the ,:tent of the loves of life by explosions and accidents in
c al minas, and the best means of preventing the recurrence
of the s.inte in future.

Sr: 0. GREY augge,ted the postponement of the motion
pending so ioquiry which had been ordered by govern-
ment.

Mr. WYLD consented to withdraw his motion.
NEW BILLS.

The SOLICITOR-Cili&EßACoittrined leave to intro-
duce a hall to amend and alter the law relating to juigmente
in Ireland.

Mr. HAYTBR obtained leave to bring in a bill to auto-
rim the sale of the Royal Pavilion at Brightor.
The Joint Stock Companie. Act (1819) Amendment Bill,
the Kalmar Ariandonmisnt Bill, the Sato Duties Allowances
Bill, and the Turnpike Roads (Ireland) Bill, paned through
committee.

The Mar/tuts an Foreign Countries facilitating Bill wu
read a won l time.

MARRIAOES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The hones went into committee on this bill, but

Mr. FORBES, entertaining stro:..g objections to the mea-
sure, and having pledgsd tlmNlt vs his mew to O'
pose it, must protest against is being proceeded with at
that hour of the morning (neer two o'clock.) Re moved
that the chairman do report progress.

The committee divided—
For the motion 24
Against it 59-33
Oa the first ciente,
Mr. DUNCAN moved the omission of certain words.
The gentry was cleared for • division, bat none took place,
and the motion was withdrawn.
The othi r elawes of the bill were then agreed to, with
certain virhal amendments, and the house remand.
REGISTERING BIRTHS, Be. (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. CHRISTOPHER objec•ed to the measure on the
ground that it involved a creation of new OilLts and a grant
V public money.
The LORD ADVOCATE explained that the bill h►d
already parsed through committee in all ite important
Baas►.. It did not propose to make any charge upon the
consolidated fund.

The motion for going into estimates was plstpmed.
The other orders of the day were then disisoeed of, and the
house adjourned at a quarter after two o'clock.

ME. ALDERMAN HUMPHERY wind off with Mr.
William Cubit% m favour of the Marriages Bill.

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL FAdxs.—At the last meeting of
the council of the Royal Agricultural Society, Mr. Whit-
more detailed the particulars of the industrial emp'oyenent of
children in farming occupations at Qaatt. The tebool-farm
belongs to the Bridgnorth nnion, the children beingerpnated
from the workhouse at Bridgnorth. It managed by •
muter, acting in the double capacity of muter of the house
and schoolmaster, and his wife as matron. Their united
miry is 501, with rations. The house is capable of accom-
modating 49 children : there are now 32 boys and 17 pirls.
Of these 19 boys are above ten, and 13 from five to ten years
of age ; of the girls 5 only an above ten, and 12 under ten
years of age, many of them under seven years. 01 the 19
bey' above ten, one is a cripple, and unable to use the spade.
The tielio4 is industrial, the boys being employed in the cul-
tivating of four and a half acres of land, end in the manage-
ment of cows, pigs, and poultry. Three, and occasionally four
cows, are kept, and from four to eight pigs The girls are
employed in the house and dairy week, in washing, trfting,
anti baking, together with sewing, knitting, and making their
own clothes, Re. The produce is disposed of, first, in supply-
ing the inmates of the school with what skim milk and pota-
toes an required for their consumption, charged at market
pricer, and the rest, rush as butter, pigs, and calves, are sold
at Bridgnorth. The children are clothed and led by the
union. Their time is nasally thus employed: they rise at
half-past five in the summer, and • quarter before seven in
the winter ; they work till eight ; echoed from nine till
twelve; dine at one ; and at two p. m. they go to their
work ; the boys to their field and garden; and the Rids to
their sewing, knitting, He. They leave work at hand sup at
6, after witted they play en hoar Of WOO, if the weath 4 per-
mit ; and, as they sing in the church, they prestige the psalms
and chants to the following Sunday, and the day is °toed
with prayers. The profits of the farm are carried to
the account of the union ; they amount to from 601.
to 7W. per annum on an average, after paying
rent and tales, together with a per tentage on the buildings,
draining, rte. Thu profit is attributable chiefly to the labour
being performed by the boys, and not charged, and from the
abundance of liquid manure, arising from all the drainage of
the house, cowhouse, and pigsties, being preserved I. a tank,
and constantly applied to the land, sometimes to the growing
vegstablcs. The crops grown en carrots, cabbage, marigold`
wurtsel, potatoes, turnips, rape, Italian rye grass, and
vetches, following in quick sucernsion, so that the land is
allowed to lie ids, except in the dead of winter, at
which time • plentiful supply of liquid manure is given to
all the land not having • crop upon it, and, being thu. pre.
pared, it requires but little in the spring to enable it to b• car
the next crop. The impientries need are the spade, fork,
rake, toe, liquid manure, barrel, and nut.