The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

Mr. HUIdE would be glad
was the keeper. (A laugh.)
An Host. M —Mr. Or
Sir G. GREY said that West
the public during the time the
times the keys could be had,
meat of a email fee.
Mr. HUME said it was
allow such fees to be taken.
were for.
THE SEE OF
Mr. GOULBURN wished to cornet a statement which
lie hail made the other night in reference to the estate of
liertield. The bea. member for Cockermouth in alluding
to the subject bad asked whether it were true that the
Bishop of Ineimegglee had granted • new lease of
the estate fes. 'OM lives, and if this bed been made
known wale cowasimiesele. Ha (Met-Maseigith
olarn had replied
that he had an luminaries et my base in the cue
of liorlitid. The bum geettemas Anwar& stated
something in refemses to the emboli 'Smithies, sad he
(Mr. Goulburn) hat therefore titeught ft IVea es wake
es a correspondence of the eopyhold commideek sad bees
which it appeared that there was a lessee of the seem et
Horfield. The ecclesiastical commission had intimated
their claim to the bishop, but they had not been race
aware as to the terms on which the lease had been granted.
Mr. HORSMAN said that on Monday night he had
asked the noble lord at the head of the peens-
ment whether the ecclesiastical commissioners had my
information as to a new lease of the estate of Head'
hawing been granted, and whether they had had any
communication with the bishop on the subject. He
had understood tho noble lord is reply that he had
communicated with Lord Chichester who hail stated
that there had been no communication with the
bishop on the subject. lie (Mr. Harman) had asked
the same question the other night of the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) as to whether the commissioners
were not aware that a new lease had been granted by the
bishop, and then again, he (Mr. llorsruan) bad asked
I whether any communication hail not been made front the
eopyhold consmis4ion. The right honourable gentleman
had stated that there had been no communication made,
and he now understood him to admit that a communication
had been made, and a new lease had been granted. Ile (Mr.
HoirAman) had taken his information from a report on the
table of the house ; and hr had been otherwise informed
that one of the lives in the lease was that of the bishop
himself. (Ilear, hear.)
TILE SCHOOL BOOKS OF THE IRISH BOARD OF
EDUCATION.
Mr. S. HERBERT wished to know whether the- go-
- - the stile of the

HOUSE OF LORl)S.—TrttatanaT, JetT 3.
The UMW CS•MCILLOR took his seat at half-past four
*Week.
ROYAL ARBRNT.
The royal assent was given by commission this afternoon
to the following bills. The Lords Commissioners were the
Lord Chancellor, Lord Miato, and Lord St. Germans:—
Stamp Duties (Behold) Continuance, Compound House-
holders, Court of Chancery (Ireland) Regulation Act
"Amendment, Highways (South Wale.), Process and Prac-
tice (Ireland), Prevention of Offences, Fee Farm Rents
(Ireland), Bridges (Ireland), Killarney and Valencia Rail-
.way, Commercial Dock. Improvement, Great Northern
Railway Amendment, Harwich Improvement, Leeds and
Thirds Railway, Great Western Railway (arrangement
to purchase Wilts, Somerset, and Weymouth Rail
way) Sheffield, Itotherham, Barnsley, Wakefield, Hud-
dersfield, and Goole Railway ; Stroud and Glen-
ester Road, Breton Ferry Docks and Railway,
South Devon Railway, South Wales Railway, East
Lancashire Railway, Eastern Union Railway, St. An-
drew's Railway, Edinburgh, Perth, and Dundee Rail-
way ; Uttnseter to Stoke, near Stone (continuation of Term
and amendment of Act) ; Monklared Itailways, Liverpool
Docks (alteration of management), Waveney Valley Rail-
way, Sunderland Improvement, Ilaylin's Bridge and Cause-
way, Price's Patent Candle Company, Midland Railway
Capital, :Dundee and Arbroath Railway, Weston-super-
Mare Improvement, Buckley Reads Consulalation' Hud-
dersfield and New Hay Distnct Turnpike-roail, Grent Cen-
tral Om Consumers' Company, 'trading Water Works,
Warrington and Altrincham Junction Railway, Maryport
and Carlisle Railway, North Shields Quays and Improve-
ments, Great North of Scotland Railway, South Wales Rail-
way (No. I), Ilathawea Estate, Christ's Hospital Estate.
Their lordships adjourned during pleasure.
Their lordships resumed at 5 o'clock.
TIII-, BARON DE BODE'S CASE.
Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition complaining of
the delay which bad taken place in the Baron de Bede's
case.
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained that the Baron
de Bode's CAOO bad been postponed to obtain the attendance
of the judges.
Lord 1.1 NIMUILST was proceeding to enter into the
facts of the ease, when
Lord CAMPBELL rose to order. Ile objected to the
write of the case being entered into on the presentation
of a petition. The learned judges hail hitherto been un-
able to attend, in comequenee of their duties calling them
elsewhere.
Lord BROUGHAM had always understood that the first
duty of the judges was to attend their lordship..
Lord C.ISIPBELL said that they had nut been sum-
monsed ; but be understood they were to be summoned fur
Morloy neat.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
Sot tt.is. —By Lord 131101:011AM, from Mr. Robert
Owen, praying to be heard before a select committee of the
house to, iplain his views fur amid inrati ng society and placing
it Un a ns w looting; and supporting, if not preventing, po-
lefty. 'I he petitioner was an individual of great benevolence,
tap ens. and philanthropic pursuits, awl one who, not-
withstanding he entertained certain opinion. in which many
of their I.orinlions not participate. was nevertheless en-
titled to In rtganleil as a gnat public benefactor. having
been, amongst other things, the author of infant schools in
this country.
The istition was read at the table.
The 11 irimis of LANSDOWNE was not prepared to
same to the appointment of a committee for the considera-
tion of large a subject as the reformation of society, with-
out I. Isola h.ol nutim of its having been intended to make
such a proposition.
ST EA NI COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA.
Earl lALBOT wished to know whether it was the lamas
time of her Majesty's government to carry out the 11111111110
monotonous of the report of the committee appointed by the
other house of parliament with respect to steam eamaaunl-
cation with Australia ? The question of a regular warn
consmuaication with South Australia was of very great im-
portune-, and was every re attracting greeter interest in
this einintry and elsewhere.
Earl 1.11. l Y (who was all hut inaudible in the gallery)
was unite rotund to reply in the negative, and to say that the
question was one which involved many important and con-
flicting totemic. ; mid the government could not give its
final el, ..lion upon it until they were in possession of further
information.
THE ADULTERATION OF COFFEE.
Lord W 11A ICsit LIFFE presenti.l a petition, which hr
accompanied with some prolonged remark., complaining of
the adulterations practised upon coffee under treasury
wort •

meet of two judges _.- supply the it,—
which the public was determined to have. The excessive
delay and expense and the total denial of justice in cases
that never came to appeal, but remained for years in
Chancery, to the utter ruin of the parties concerned, was
the great source of complaiut. It was throwing dust in the
eyes of the public to contend that the additional judges
would remove this grievance.
Sir J. GRAHAM, after referring to his recent addition
to the chancery commission, on the recommendation of
Lord J. Russet', said that he should be very glad to place
his services at the disposal of the commission, though he
could not promise constant attendance. (Hear, hear.)
He thanked the noble lord for this second bill, which he
thought a great improvemeut on the first. But he thought
they were beginning their improvements at the top, instead
of the buttons of the building. (Hear, hear.) limo belief
was, that improvement was needed at the very foundation.
The other night they hail glanced at the Masters' of
and an hon. gentleman had said with great truth, that nos
' body could he found to defend the Masters in Chancery.
Allusion had also been made to another office, that of the
examiners; and he believed there was no exiunplo in
any civilised country of improvement being delayed
for so long a period as in this department. (Hear
bear.) He had his fears with respect to this
bill, identical with those which, sifter 20 years expe-
rience, he thought were rightly expressed by Sir 54111%/11
Homily, in regard to the appointment of vice-chancellors.
He said that the appointment of subordinate assistants to
the Lord Chancellor would be attended with this fatal con-
sequence, that the character of the office itself would be de-
graded, awl never again would England see such men
bolding the great seal as Somers, Camden, or Hardwick'.
(Hear, hear.) The appointment, he said, would be attended
with this serious danger and inconvenience, that the office
of Lord Chancellor would be rendered primarily political,
and secondarily judicial; whereas the reverse ought to he
the case. (Hear.) Ile certainly believed that this appellate
tribunal, viewed abstractedly, would be an efficient tribunal,
and would exercise its functions of various kinds to the satin-
faction of the suitors. His fear was, that when the at-
rears had been reduced there would not be work enough
both for the tribunal and the Lord Chancellor. if that
should be the effect, the danger was inevitable of degrada-
tion of the standard of men who were really competent
to be Chancellor of England. Ile was not prepared to
take upon himself the responsibility of opposing the fur-
ther progress of this bill ; but he did entertain doubts, and
entertaiuing them, he could not omit to state them.
Mr. AGLIONIIY believed that within recent years
the proceedings in the Master's offices had been very
much improved, but abuses did not exist there alone.
It sometimes occurred that the lessee had a dispute with
the receiver, and not wishing to depend on his own judge
ment, he might wish to take his case before the Master.
Now, he could not do that without first going into the
Court of Chancery and obtaining a copy of all the proceed-
ings in that court, as also serving notice on all the soli-
citors engaged in the ease. hat was an instance of a
serious grievance, awl many others might be cited. (Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY would take the liberty of asking the
right hon. Solicitor-General whether or not it was in-
tended by this bill to confer on the new judges any original
jurisdiction ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL replied that the measure
contemplated the hearing of original causes by those judges,
only in cases where illness prevented the attendance of one
or more of the Masters in Chancery, or in case of all the
peals being cleared off and disposed of, which was not anti-
, cipated or at all likely to occur.
Mr. HUME was given to understand, that if the Masters
in Chancery were called upon to sit daily at 9 o'clock, and
go through the business regularly—instead of adopting the
system at present in practice—the root of the evil of ureter
would be reached. lie wished to know from the noble lord
whether an order to that effect from the Lord Chancellor to
the Masters would not be advisable?
Lord J. RUSSELL said there had been this change
made in the Masters offices, that, instead of the hour war-
rants, the plan had been introduced of having the causes
proceeded with regularly, one after the other, in their re-
spective order. lie might say the Lord Chancellor would
be happy to adopt any iinprovements that might be made.
In reference to what had been said by the right hon. mem-
ber for Ripon, he (Lord J. Russell) certainly should have
attached great weight to his objection, were it not
for the authority which he (Sir J. Graham) had
cited to sustain his objection. When the proposal
of creating a Vice-Chancellor was brought before
parliament in 1811 or 1813, it was said by Sir
Samuel Homily that, in the event of such functionary
being appointed, they could not expect to get men of ability
and standing to accept the office of Lord Chancellor, but
that the office would become one of a political nature.
However, he thought the objection of Sir Samuel Hominy
had been in that respect falsified. He (Lord J. Russell)
certainly thought the Lord Chancellor should have
more time than was allowed him at present to devote
to the question of legal reform. The Lord Chas-
cellor felt it to be his first duty to do justice in the
causes that came before him, and to decide with the
greatest attention and labour in all causes in his court,
and consequently it was impossible for any man, no
matter what his ability, to accomplish the multifarious
duties of his office unassisted. (Hear, hear.) The bill then
before the house was important in providing that assist.
ance ; and he trusted great advantages would result from it
to the suitors in chancery. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. EVANS readily admitted that something in the
nature of a minister of justice was much required. He
wished to know why the Masters in Chancery should
not take original business? He objected to the mode of
taking evidence at present, and hoped all these imperfec-
tione would be reformed. (Hear, hear.)
The clause (clause 1) was then agreed to, as also were 2
and 3. Clause 4, with some verbal amendments introduced
by Mr. Bethel, was agreed to, as also clauses 5,0, and 7.
On clause 8,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL explained that appcals'in
bankruptcy were first from the commissioner to the chief
judge in bankruptcy, and from him to the Lord Chancellor.
Now, by the present bill the hearing by the chief judge in
bankruptcy was taken away altogether, and the appeal
sent to the newly created tribunal.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 9 and 10 were agreed to.
On clause 11,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL pragnesd to Mil the

es in N....at way they *bond seers me
the aid he required to grapple with the difficulty.
(Hear.) me hon. and learned friend rimmed to think it was
an soomuly that the two judges should preside in the Ju-
dicial Committee of the Privy Centeil; but it was expected
that the new errangsuants would give the judges ample
lasers to attend the Judicial Committee ; and of course, as
to their competency then would be no question. Thus by
the pin proposed it the bill they would get an appeal
teen ad two geed judges to mkt the Privy Council ;
be-
ides width it amid have this great advantage, namely, that
it would limas the amount of appeal business
a the Bowe of Lords. At the present mo-
wn He appeals from the Vice-Chancellor, though
to a higher judge, was still from a single judge to another
single judge ; but, when it should be to two judges, appeals
would scarcely ever be taken to the House of Lords except
in cues of great magnitude. As appeals to the Lord Chan-
cellor were much less comity than to the House of Lords it
was of great consequence to improve the former as much as
possible rather than to transfer a large portion of the busi-
ness to the latter. (Cheers.) With respect to the number
of registrars, be could not sec how the question was in-
volved in the first clause ; but it should have his best atten-
tion. (Cheers.)
Mr. FRESIiFIELD briefly argued that it was necessary
to appoint a new registrar.
Lord J. RUSSELL promised to make inquiries into the
subject, and if he found it desirable he should have no
objection to propose a clause creating another registrar.
(Cheers.)
Sir DE L. EVANS felt disappointed that the government
hadonlT proposed to increase the staff of the Court of Chan-
cery. the hon. member went on to refer at some length
to an individual case of delay and difficulty, which led to a
brief conversation, after which,
Mr. ELLICE, while &Aimg the utmost confidence in the
Chancery commission, thought it desirable that some Mas-
ter in Chancery of great experience should be added to it.
Sir U. STRICKLAND firmly believed the state of the
Court of Chancery to be the greatest grievance that ever
existed in this country. lle doubted whether the appoint.
- additional • would --- • the redress

eroment had decided upon confirming
books by the Irish commissioners to Ireland, and further if
it war to be confined to schools connected with the board ?
Mr. C. LEWIS said: Oovemment had taken the
matter into consideration, and had come to the conclu-
sion that as far as the strict application of the grant was
concerned, it should be confined to the supply of books in
connexion with the Irish national board, but at the same
time they had requested the commissioners of the national
booed to make such arrangements as would secure to the
Irish schools, and to the public at large, the continuence
of the supply of the hooks in an authentic form at moder-
ate prices, or at such prices as they bad hitherto been
sold at.
POSTAL COMMUNICATION WITII FRANCE.
Lord PALMERSTON, in reply to Mr. Bruit, mid:his
noble friend the Postrmater-Gentral had had some com-
munications with the French government, but they Raid nut
led to any definite result.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL.
Mr. FRESIIIFIELD asked Lord John Ruseell what
amendments he proposed to introduce in this bill and in
what order ?
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that he did not propose to
make any alteration in the preamble or in the first clause
as they now stood after the amendments agreed to by the
house the other evening. but on the second clause be
proposed to omit all the work which were introduced on
the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman the member
for Abingdon with respect to certain balls and restripts.
Ile should likewise propose to ',eve out those words which
would give a common informer the right to proceed against
any person with the consent of the Attorney-General.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he understood it was the noble
lord's intention to move to omit 10 amendments, which
would materially affect the bill. Ile concluded it was the
general impression of the house that they ought to have one
more debate at large on the merits of the bill, and it would
be greatly fur the convenience of the house if it could be
ogre .I!bygeneral understanding to take that debate, not
upon the third nailing of the bill, hut upon the qui.stiim
that the bill do pass. lie thought it would he well that
they should take the debate after this motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he quite agreed with the right
hon. gentleman that it would he more convenient that when
the house discussed the general principle of the bill it
should be able to discuss it in the shape in which it would
finally appear. Therefore, if the house would consent to-
morrow to allow the third reading of the bill, then they
could discuss these amendments.
The house then passed to the orders of the day.
OATH OF ABJURATION (JEWS) BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,
Sir ROBERT INGLIS entered his %Mem protest against
a measure which went to render a declaration in the truth
of the Christian religion no longer necessary in numbers of
that house, thus tending to destroy the Chnstiou character
of the legislature. With that solemn declaration of opinion
he would rest satiatiol, and not trouble the house with a
division.
Lord JOIIN RUSSELL felt it neces.sary, in consequence
of the protest thus made, to state that lie did not believe the
legislature ever intended to require a declaration of belief
in ChristianPyiu aqualification for a seat in that house. All
that W 144 intended by the oath of abjuration was to enable
persons to declare allegiance to the family now on the
throne, and to adjure allegiance to the family of James
With regard to the conditions in the several oaths, the Jew
was perfectly ready to swear compliance in the way that
was binding on his conscience. Lord John Russell was
glad to see that Alderman Salomons, who had just been
elected fur Greenwich, had decided not to COMIC down and
take the oaths till the other house had had another oppor-
tunity of considering the question; and when that other
house came to take into consideration the present measure,
Lord John Russell hoped they would remember that
the Rouse of Commons hail shown much sensitive-
ness, he did nut mean to say too much sensitiveness, as
to the privileges of the Rome of Lords in the course they
had adopted. Ile trusted that when their lordships coo-
sidereal that the Rouse of Commons hail declared for the
third time their opinion that the Jew ought to sit in the
Lower Rouse, they would consider whether it was not
time that the people should be left to their own choice as
regarded those who should represent them. As matters
stood, the Jew candidate had an unfair advantage over the
Christian, for he could claim the suffrages of the consti-
tuency as a citizen deprived of civil privileges on accaunt of
his religious belief.
Mr.NEWBECiATE rejoiced that the hon. baronet did not
iuteud to divide the house, because Alderman Salomon: had
declared his intention to take his scat independent of the bill.
Although lie had been advised, he said, to wait the result of
the bill in the House of Lords, he hail been elected on a
pledge to take his seat independent of the law. Under
these circumstances, it would be supererogation in the
house to express an opinion on the bill.
Mr. HODGSON said the noble lord came down to that
boom in the champion of protettautism, and introduced a
lbw to repel pupal aggression. Ile asked the noble lord how
he could reconcile his conduct with respect to these two
measures. Ile protested against this bill in his own name
sad in the name of hi. constituents.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said 177 members had voted against
this bill, and only 202 for it. Ile quite agreed with his
boa. friend that under these circumstances it was not neces-
sary to divide an the present occasion. Ile protested against
this bill, and believed it to be opposed to the feelings of the
people of this country.
- Mr. J. A. SMIT It said the cause of the small majority
oit the second reading was quite notorious. Ile had not
the slightest fear that the house and the public at large
will understand why it was they would not divide now.
All that he could say was that they were quite ready on
that side to test by a division whether the opinion of the
house hail undergone any alteration. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. HENLEY repudiated the idea that the hon. mem-
bers on that side were afraid of a division. The bill
bad been brought on just when the noble lord pleased.
If he saw his benches fall he had the question dies
Mused ; but if he saw them empty he put it off. (Loud
dicers.) Under these circumstances, and having openly
protested against the bill on its second reading, he did not
think it necessary to trouble the house to divide again.
The question that the bill be read a third time was then
put from the chair; Sir R. Inglis and several other mem-
bers loudly cried " No," but as they did not demand a di-
vision, the Speaker declared that the ayes had it.
The question that the bill do pass was carried in the like
manner.

......
Earl GRANVILLE said that there were gond rea-
lms. why the system that bail formerly pn•raikel haul
been interfemil with by the government, for it hail operated
injuriously. Ile admitted that coffee in this country might
nut la• generally so good as that which was served in most
of the great towns on the Continent, but that was perhaps
owing to the mode of preparing it rather than to any infe-
riority in the article itself; and there was certainly as much
chicory in the eohh•e that was so highly approved of in
l'aris as in any that was sold in England. After all the
discussions and controversy that hail taken place on
this subject, the public meeting of the trade, and
the debates in loth houses of parliament, the public
could not be ignorant of the real nature of the coffee that
was sold in must of the shops, and it could not be main-
tained that the public at huge were injured, for it was at
the option of all who did out like the miaturu to buy a
coffee mill and grind the berry themselves.
SNIITHFIELD MARKET.
Lord ItF..\t'>lONT gave notice that he should move that
the stamina; orders of the house, requiring notices• should
be lisp -recd with in the case of the Smithfield Market Eve
novel Rill.
After a few words from Lord BRoru HAIL
basil BEAU lONT said that to marrow he should give
his reausiss for the motion.
COURT OF CHANCERY.—ABOLITION OF
OFFICES.
Lord Illtol3l3llAM asked whether it was intended to
introduce any bill similar to that brought forward by Lord
Cniteuliam lust year, for the purpose of abolishing certain
(Mice", and among them that of Chief Registrar in the
Court of It.enkruptcy. hill had been stigmatised in the
House of Commons as a job, and rejected ; but he could
only say he wished there wen• more such jobs.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the facts stated hy
Lord Brougham were comet. There could be no doubt
that great inconvenience had been CAM. d by the rejection of
Lord Cottenham's bill, to remedy which it would be neces-
sary to bring in a fresh bill. The noble lord then preemitled
to give a sketch of the duties of his secretaries, and of the
time and trouble he hAbestowed on the office he now filled.
blush remained to be dune in the way of law reform, but
it was only these who were ignorant of the evils caused by
alterations made by rash hands who underrate.' what had
been already etfected. It was must unjust to attack him for
not desiring refrom, for he had been a reformer before re-
form was in fashion. and he would not cease to be one now.
laud lIROCti II AM, in a speech of some length, warmly
repudiated the imputation of rashness cast alum him by
the Lord Chancellor, who protested that he bad not used
the:woril*•• rash hands:" with reference to his noble friend.
After some further explanations the matter dropped.
The Prisons (Scotland) Bill, and the Survey of Great
Britain, Ac., Bill. severally passed through committee.
The Itepresentive Peers (Scotland) Bill was then read a
aeond time.

The ilanehester Waterworks Din was read a third time,
and passed.
The Patent Laws Amendment Bill was read ► third time,
and pawed.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter past seven.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TIWILSDAT JOLT 3.
The ti took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
_ _

Tlltillt RlSADlNtli.—lmperial Continental Gas AYOCiS-
st. Bartholomew's llospital Estate; St. Pancras
(111iilitlesez) Paving: Bills.
BILL Cusstonnan.—Kensimeton Improvement Bill.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
_ _

Tilt C KTIIT&L PAsAcs.—Dy Or B. HALL, from the
inhabitant. of Maryietigre pm*" est the Crystal Palace
might b open (or four days is the week at a chars° of ad-
mission of one penny each perm. WI that an set might be
passed, during the pment session of putiameat, to enable
the commissioners to preserve the budding on its pre-

Sent pin•.

1311111 i C.IXIILUNICATION.—By Viscount JOCELYN,
Eon the Chamber of COIIIIIICMC of Bombay, praying for
Issyniry into the state of steam communication in India ;
Viscount JOCELYN, from merchants and traders of the
City of London, representing a capital of 1,400,0001., pray-
ing that the first report of the committee on steam commu-
nication with India be curried into effect The latter peti-
tion, on the motion of the noble lord, was read at the table.
Isissiiirou House Derr Batt.—By Mr. EIVART.
from 7.k.) persons, members of the College of Preceptors and
proprietors of schools, praying that (in the Inhabited House
Dusty Bill) buildings devoted to the purpose of education
may. like houses counected with shops and warehouses, be
nabyeeted only to the lower rate of charge.
LITHOGRAPHED PETITIONS.
_ . .

Petitions were presented by Mr. COBDEN, Lord NAAR,
and others from veterinary surgeons of various plans pray-
ing that they might be ernipted (rum acting on juries.
Mr. THORN ELY (chairman of the committee on peti-
tions) having put a question as the petitions were severally
presi ntid. elicited the fret of their being lithographed.
Mr. COBDEN said he bad written to one of the parties
who had forwarded the petitions to him, stating that it
was doubtful whether they would he received, but had
added that he was willing ter give them a trial. (laughter.)
Tile [SPENCER said that according to the orders of the
here no lithographed petitions raid bs received.
TUOUNELT mid that at the beginning of every
erre t►e orders of the house were prated, and a copy
sent mod to every member. From these orders it would
be seen that so lithographed petition could be received, and
It rested with her members themselves to maho this
known__

EXPENSES OF PROSECUTIONS (SCOTLAND).
In answer to Hr. F. 31st:swum
Mr. C. LEWIS said there would be reties to lay
certain papers on the table in contusion Aim saltiest
WETHINsTER HA
Mr. HUME begged to ask the noble lord at the head of
the Woods and Forests whether any had been
made to have Westminster Hall thrown open to straillters
At present it ap_penred that parties had to pt a key and pay
a certain let. The utmost liberahty pngl?t to be displayed
in such matters especially at the present time.
Lord SEYMOUR said he was not the keeper of West-
filmier Hall, and could mot give the hoe. amber say

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EYEIUNG JULY, 4, 1851.

stets is the Jastl* Committee, and thus give greater fa-1
eiliYes fee inalein4 aal
quorum. (Hear.)
• It was then proposed and agreed to that the three
members should be of the legal professiod, exclusive of the
Lord President of the Council for the time being.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 15 was struck out.
Clauses 16 and 17 were agreed to.
On clause 18,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL explained that it was in-
tended to provide salaries for the officers of the new judges,
including 4001. a year for a secretary, 2601. for an usher,
and 1001. a year for a trainbenrer.
Mr. AGLIONBY said he objected to the manner and fund
out of which all these payments were to be made. The
cx-
pease. necessary fur the administration of justice should be
paid by the country and not by the suitors as such. He put
st to the hon. and learned Solicitor-General, whether it
was desirable to charge an additional sum of 14,0001. a year
to the suitors' fund instead of seeking the relief of the
suitors' fee fund and the suitors.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, the transference of
the charge from the suitors' fund to the suitors' fee fund
would be anything but advantageous. The suitors' fund
was what =got be termed the bankers' profit of the court,
arising from the loose cash invested, from which there was
no claim for interest, and the committee recommended that
it should be managed with a view to the ultimate reduction
of fees. Only six weeks ago the Lord Chan-
cellor made au order by which the charges on suitors
were diminished to the extent of 20,0001. a rear,
and he trusted the process of diminution would continue.
Mr. HUME said his great objection to these charges was
that they were not paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and
that 100,0001. a year was paid for salaries without the
amount being brought to account by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. Why should there not be an account as in the
case of any other portion of the public expenditure ? What
was this suitors fund ? It consisted of stock to the
amount of 3,525,0001., the interest on which was during
the lad year 103,3981. Ile complained of this mode of
payment us a fraud on the public ; and he trusted that the
government would see the propriety of making an ahem-
.. . . . . . .

Mr. V. SMITH considered the appointment of train-
bearers calculated to stamp the new judgeships with ridi-
cule. Ile did not see why the new judges should have
6,0001. a year, while the puisno judges of the law courts
had only 5,0001.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the train-bearer was employed
as a messenger to carry books and reports. It appeared to
the government that if they were to appoint two judges
to a court of appeal, whose decisions were to overrule those
of the Vice-Chancellor, somewhat of larger salaries ought
to be given to them than to the Vice-Chancellor. With
regard to the suitors' fund, he was not prepared to contest
that it would be desirable that the salaries should be paid
altogether out of that fund.
Sir J. GRAHAM expressed the satisfaction he felt at
hearing these observations fall from his noble friend.
Though there was a distinction between the suitors fund
and the suitors' fee fund, yet it had always appeared to him
that to abstract too much money out of the suitors' fund
would endanger the suitors' fee fund, and, with the view of '
reducing the payments to the latter fund, he looked with
jealousy at soy increased charge on the suitors fund. Ile
was as rigid an economist as the honourable member fur
Northainptoo (Mr. V. Smith) ; still, if the house were to
appoint a court of appeal, the judges of that court must be
taken from the very foremost ranks of the profession, and,
as they ought not to be insufficiently rewarded, he did nut
think 11,00111. a year an inordinate salary for them to re-
ceive. Ile was afraid, however, that a very great
additional charge was about to be made on the
suitors' fund. He would place judicial offices on the con-
solidated fund ; and talking of judicial offices, he wished to
know what had become of the bill for reducing the amount
of official salaries.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Lord Chancellor was of
opinion that great changes ought to take place with regard
to offices and salaries, but he entertained doubts whether
this was the proper time far making them, seeing that a
commission was sitting with the view of remodelling the
offices and assigning the business attached to each.
In reply to Mr. Hisser.,
Lord J. RUSSELL said the recommendation of the eons-
mittee that the Vies-Chancellor should only receive
5,000/. a year—had been adopted since the death of Sir.
L. Shadwell.
After a brief conversation :the sum of 6,0001. salary was
inserted in the clause.
In line Zl;i, clause 18, salaries were inserted—fur the secre-
tary, 400/., the usher 2)01., and the train-bearer 1001.
Clause 10, which had reference to pensions, was postponed.
In reply to Sir J. GleallAM,
Lord RUSSELL said there was a provision in the
act of Anne, to the etfect that any person taking a new
office, who was a member of the house, should be re-
elected, and therefore this pros isiun had nut been inserted
again in the bill.
Clause DI was agreed to.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL expressed himself favour-
able to the new clauses suggested by the hon. member fur
Newark. The new judges would lie continuously sitting,
! and therefore there would be twice as much business doing
iu future as there was at present. The business of the
registrars had greatly accumulated; and therefore there
was a clause providing that in case it was neeissary, the
Lord Chancellor might appoint an additional registrar.
A chose to this effiet was read a first and second time,
and ordered to be misled to.the bill.
The remaining clauses were then agreed to, and the
house resumed.

CUSTOMS BILL.
This bill, as amended, was ordered to be considered on
Monday.
INHABITED HOUSE DUTY BILL.
Mr. lIUME asked whether lie would he allowed on Mon-
day to bring forward his motion for levying the duty on
houses from 40s. up to 201.?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
that if the hon. member wished to carry out his views, he
should bring in a new bill. They had, however, plenty of
legislation connected with this subject before them fur the
' present session ; and he certainly did not feel inclined to
give way to the hon. member. lie would, however, be
guided by the feelings of the house.
Mr. DISRAELI said there was another motion on this
subject to be brought on by the hon. member for Leicester,
the object of which was to have the duty levied on nil
houses of IW. a year and upwards. Perhaps the hon.
member for Montrose would defer his own motion, and
unite in endeavouring to carry this, which would cer-
tainly be one step in advance towards the lion. mem-
ber's object. Ile (Mr. Disraeli), however, really thought
that the hon. member for Montrose should have an oppor-
tunity of bringiair his motion forward. (Hear.)
The committee on the Inhabited House Duty Bill was
then postponed till Monday next, and
Mr. HUME renewed the notice of his motion for that day.
WOODS, FORESTS, &c., BILL.
On the question being put fur going into committee en
this bill,
Viscount DUNCAN stated the course ho intended to
pursue. Ile had given notice that he would move that it
be an instruction to the committee on the Woods, Forests,
&c. Bill to make provision therein in conformity with the
terms of the resolution to which this house agreed on the
llth day of March last, relating to the payment of the gross
income of the possessions and land revenues of the crown
into the exchequer, and the expenses necessary for collect-
ing and managing the same being placed under the control
of this house. The Speaker, with that kindness and ur-
banity by which he was distinguished, had, however, in-
formed him that such a motion would be irregular, and he
therefore had taken that opportunity of informing the
house that it was his intention to test its opinion on the
fourth clause of the bill. Ile had to ask his noble friend
if he would have the kindness now to state the nature and
provisions of the bill. It was one of the most important
bills which had been brought in this session.
Lord SEYMOUR had no objection to answer any point
which might be put to him.
After a few words from Sir H. WlttotuituY,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the bill in general principle
resembled a measure which had beenintrodueedlast session.
Ile had then stated that the °dices:of Works and Woods and
Forests had blended together some years ago,and thatcertain
inconveniences, which had been clearly proved before the
committee, had resulted, and what they had proposed
generally had been, that the office of Works should be one
department, represented by a member of the house, '
amongst whose duties would be the bringing forward of es-
timates connected with the department. The Woods and
Forests and land revenues it was proposed should be managed
by permanent officers under the treasury.
Mr. TRELA.WNEY complainedthat the bill was merely
a new arrangement as regarded tho mode of governing the
Woods and Forests,and did not go into the evils which were
so justly complained of, in order that they might be eradi-
cated. At present the forests were almost unproductive.
Sir W. JOLIFFE said the bill did not carry out the re-
.l.stions of the commission of inquiry,. It was a
-sd F,

COURT OF CHANCERY AND JUDICIAL COM- lowing words to the mai of the cliimi,iliad in bill to make the department of the Woods and .
MITTEE BILL. where the concurrence, advice, or cement of the Muter of a matter of Treasury benefit than hitherto.
The house went into committee upon this bill. the Rolls, or one of the Viee.Chaneellors, shall be requi- Sir C. BURItELL recommended that the forests should
Upon clause I, site for making such rules and orders, the concurrence, be disposed of in small allotments.
Mr. J. STUART said this dame suggested some very advice, or consent of one of the judges appointed by this Mr. GOULBURN apprehended that the bill went no
important considerations. It was one to evest, a new court act, shall be sufficient." The addition of these words further than to improve the constitution of that court by
of appeal in the Court of Chancery; and it would, no would he thought meet the views of the hen, and learned which the crown lands were managed, and that it would be
doubt, materially alter the constitution of that court member for Midhunt, who signified his intention of pro• left to that court afterwards to carry out the necessary re-
As the bill would manifestly interfere with the ap- posing some such words. . forms in the system of management. He thought the bill
pelLaut jurisdiction of the House of Lords, it would The amendment was agreed to. might have been more definite in its provisions. It pre.
sure) lure been desirable that it should have been origi- Mr. BETHEaI, proposed to omit from the clause that scribed first the continuance of the present board, or at
noted in another place ; although he admitted there was a part of it *bitch prohibited the Court of Appeal, and the least the continuance of a Chief Commissioner of Woods and
great convenience in its origination in the House of Com- Master of the Rolls, and Vice•Chaneellor, from exercising Forests with two subordinate commissioners, and for the
mons, for the noble lord who had brought it forward felt it the jurisdiction of the Chancellor in Lunacy. better management of the department the bill provided
would be necessary to make some provision for the judges After a few words from the SOLterrolleGENwitAL, that these two subordinate commissioners should have din-
to be appointed, and their lordships could not have done Mr. BETHELL suggested the addition of the following ferent departments to manage. This was the first arrange-
that without interfering with the privileges of this house. words, " not affecting the power, authority, and duty of most. Then, about the third or fourth clause of the bill,
All, therefore, that he (Mr. Stuart) wanted was, the Lord Chanceller, under or by virtue of any appoint- another arrangement was proposed. Power was there
that there should be a fair time allowed fur them meat under the sign manual of the crown." taken to appoint a surveyor-general, who was to supersede
to consider whether or not the primary functions With which addition the clause was agreed to. these commissioners and to have absolute control. He
of the new judges should not be in the House of Lords in. On dame 14, referring to the constitution of the Judicial wished to know from his noble friead if he had stated the
stead of as proposed. lie considered the bill also defective Committee of the Privy Council, provisions of the bill correctly?
in that it did not make any provision for new registrars. It Mr. BETHELL thought it would be much better to Lord SEYMOUR said that objection had been taken to
was agreed on all hands that the amount of labour at pee. have your the quorum, of whom three should be lawrs, the bill on various grounds. lie had brought in a bill
sent imposed on the registrars was more than they were as at present. He begged to move the omission of the regarding the New Forest which had passed the eons-
able to discharge ; and he had hoped that the noble lord clause. mittee up stairs. By this bill the management would
would have made arrangements for the appointment, not Mr. STUART hoped the govt ant would pause before be simplified, the Lod Warden's office would cease,
merely °rubel officers as ashen,train-scares, secretaries, they consented to strike out the cTalise. the deer would be removed, and that would afford
and the like, but of the more important officers, of whom he The SOLICITOR-OENERAL thought the clause ought them an opportnnity of letting the farm. It had been ob.
was 'puking. The number of registrars was fixed by the to remain. jectcd that the forests had not supplied timber to the navy
6th Viet. cap. 5. There were five courts, namely, the Mr. A. PALMER thought the clause would have He had been on a committee on this subject up stairs is
three Vice.Chaneellors', the Master of the Rolls', and the a prejudicial effect. 1:333. when a letter had been laid before them from the Ad-
Lod Chancellor's, which required the attendance of these Lord J. RUSSELL said that there was great difficulty in rairalty, which recommended that in time of peace no
officers, and at present, each was alternately one day in making a quorum, and therefore the court did not meet timber should be cut except what was going to decay. Now,
court and one day in his own office. The average number when it was desirable that it should meet. This was a they had either to allow the timber to grow, and have a
of courts sitting every day was four, but the appointment great inconvenience. (Hear, hear.) They therefore pro- large quantity of it at hand when the exigencies of the
of the additional judges would raise that &Tune to five, pored two things to remedy it. One was to make three country might demand it, or else cut it and sell it when
and the registrar would only be able to attend in his °Mee members the quorum, and the other was to make two of the ripe. The latter was not considered an advisable
two days a week. The appointment of a new registrar judges, who had not the power of sitting in the Privy course. It hail also been complained that the forests
would only be 1,2601. per anaemia, a aim not worthy of eon- Conseil, privy COII.IIMIIOII, so that they could take their law led to great expense. On this point he had to

`oresta mo

inform them that he was bringing in a bill to relieve the
crown from the feudal system of forest law. Another hon.
member had said the present was ■ Treasury Bill, and not
a Woods and Forests Bill. It appeared to him (Lord
Seymour), that the best mode of securing economy was to
put a department under the control of the Treasury,
who were answerable for the expenditure of the country.
Ile conceived that to be, therefore, a recommendation
rather than an objection. The bill gave an alternative. It
left the office of Woods to two commissioners, and then he
inserted a clause to have a surveyor generally responsible
and controlling the whole, and to have under him a practi-
cal land surveyor as a deputy, whom he might send about
to different parts of the country, bringing back to
him that information which a person in an office
in London could not possibly -have. It was im-
possible, with the land revenues of the country
spread over 40 counties, that gentlemen sitting at White-
hall could manage them properly, without this kind of in-
formation and assistance. One great and important object
of the bill was to facilitate the understanding of the compli-
cated accounts of the office.
Mr. Ill:ME said there was not a man in the house who
would not admit that the grossest abuses existed in this de-
partment. lie could produce cases of mismanagement quite
as bad as those they had the other night regarding the
church but he would not trouble the house with them.
Mr. HENLEY said the very fact of this bill being brought
forward was a proof that there had been mismanagement of
the crown estates. It seemed to him, however, that this
bill was so curiously contrived as to prevent any one from
being responsible, and that did not augur well for the
future good assuagement of the property. This bill, though
it might be altered when it went into committee, did nut
offer say security that the property would be managed
in future much better than it had been.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
there ought to be in the house a responsible head
of every department, but there was an uncommon jealousy
against increasing the number of official members ; and so
they must rest content without having such ample oppor-
tunities of asking questions. As the matter stood the
treasury would be responsible as it were for the Post-office
or the Customs ; and, as in those cases, it would have a check
over the expenditure, inasmuch as any outlay would have
to be sanctioned by it. With regard to the insertion of other
persons upon the commission, it would be similar to what
was the case with the Board of Control and the Poor Law
Board, of which he (the right hon. baronet) hail the
honour to he a member, not that he actively interfered with
the business of either, but in the case of the resignation or
death of his hon. friend (Mr. Baines), for instance, it
would be found convenient to have es officio members to
carry on the business till his successor should be appointed.
(Hear, hear.)
The house then went into committee.

On clause 1,
Lord DUNCAN found that two commissioners of
woods were to be appointed at 1,2001., and that in the
Ilth clause the noble lord contemplated afterwards the
appointment of a surveyor-general with a salary of 1,5001.
a year. Ile thought that they had better at once place
the matter under the care of the surveyor-general, fur he
perfectly concurred with the noble lord that the manage-
ment of this property would he much better done by one
person, especially as the two commi.cioners were to keep,
according to clause 5, separate accounts.
Lord SEYMOUR said that as, in addition to the sur-
veyor-general, there was to be a practical surveyor, the
expense of the two systems would be much the same.
After some conversation,
Mr. VERNON SMITH said: He should have thought,
looking to the bill, that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer wished to appoint a surveyor-general, but was
hampered by the present commissioner because he had said
that those gentlemen would be entitled to compensation.
But he had left the commissioners in an awkward position,
because any government might turn them out without
compensation. The bill provided fur no compensation.
His opinion was that the appointment of a surveyor-
general would bo the best constitution, and if that step
were taken at once an opportunity would he afforded fur
deciding what should be done in the case of the commis-
sioners. But lie could not see why it should h. left to the
Treasury to alto ;the scheme again, and to abandon these
gentlemen without any compensation to which they might
be entitled.
Mr. TRELAWNEY was of opinion that the bill did
not go for enough.
The CHAIRMAN then stated the question to he, that
all that part of the clause should be struck out which fol-
lowed the words " this act." _ .

Atter a few worth from the CIISNCELLOIL of the Ex-
CREQCEit,
Sir J. GRAHAM had arrived at the opposite eon-
clu.ion from that of the hon member for Northamp-
ton upon the same premises; and judging trout the
very tact to which that honourable gentleman had
referred he drew a contrary infl•rence, for the government
would not have appointed a third commis,•ioner if they
had not intended to continue the commission. Upon the

returned was that the messenger had informed him (the
Serjeant-at-Arms) that it was caused by the hon. member
rue Ennis (the O'Gorman Mahon). lie was not aware that
any other member joined in making the noise.
The Sig:AEI-At haring summoned the Serj-atit-at-
Arms, said that he had been informed that during the
mutes • great disturbance had Inwn caused by some• mem.
bee outside the door. What member caused the disturb-
ance ?

•
The SEILIZANT-AT-ARMS—The messenger told nit that
it was the hon. member for Ennis.
The SPEAKER—Is the hon. member for Ennis in his
place ?
Mr HUME suggested that as the Serjtunt-at-Arms anly
heard the statement from the messenger, it might be desi-
rable to call in that servant of the house..
The SPEAKER (who saw the hon member for Ennis
in the gallery), said—Will the hon. member fur Ennis take
his place ?
The O'GoaMAN MAHON descended from the gallery and
took his place in the house.
The SPEAKER.—The house has been informed by the
Chairman that during the proceedings of the committee
on the Woods and Forests Hill, the committee has been in-
terrupted by the hon. member for Ennis making a disturb-
ance at the door of the house during the time the com-
mittee was sitting. If that statement be correct, lam
sure the hon. member for Ennis will feel that he owes it to
the house to apologise for such indecorous conduct. (Hear.)
The O'GORMAN MAHON—No man in the house"(
out of the house is more desirous of olearving the rules
which regulate civilised society than I am, and I la g to pro-
test against the imputations cast upon me in the present
instance. (Hear, hear.) Ido not merit them, and there-
fore I have no apolary to make to the house. I now re-
quest permission to state what did occur, aid when the
house has heard me I trust it will acquit me of any thing
like disrespect towards it, or of any deviation from the
conduct which, as an independent member of parliament, I
was called on to observe. The strangers immediately above
you, sir, had not retired from the gallery beforo
the division when I knocked to have the door
opened. The messenger refused to do so. I conse-
quently continued to knock at the door, in order that
I might exercise my prerogative here as member. I was
denied admission, and I say a wrong was inflicted on me
by the exclusion to which I was subjected. (hear, hear.)
Mr. P. BUTLER—Sir, I beg to corroborate the state-
ment of my hon. friend. I was close to the scene; and,
hearing my bun. friend knocking at the door, and beiag
aware with my hun. friend that strangers had nit then left
the house, I remonstrated with the functionary near the
door, and asked him to open it. Ile refused to do so, and
the interruption continued, for which I hope my hon.
friend has satisfactorily apologised.
The O'GORMAN MAHON —No, no. (Loud laughter.)
Mr. BUTLER—Though he has not apologised, he cer-
tainly said that he meant no disrespect to the house, but
that he merely meant to exercise his privilege of voting,
and hoped by knocking at the dour to he enabled to do so.
The SPEAKER—Before the question is put, 1 hope
that, after what has fallen from the hon. member, the house
will be satisfied that he was nut guilts, of intentional
disre-
spect. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear')
The O'GORMAN MAIIOS—And I hope, sir, that you
will issue such directions as will present the returreine of
similar scenes in future. Last session and this wes.iin I had
occasion to complain of the rapidity with which the doors
arc closed, thereby preventing the prerogatives uud rights
of hon. members front being exercised..
Mr. GOtLBUItN.—I beg to say that I think members
who are too quickly excluded ought afterwards to prefer
their complaint, and that the menders se exelud•al are not
justified in interrupting the business of the house.
' "

hewed cries of " litar,lear.")
The O'GORMAN MAHON.—I am perfectly aware that
I possess no right to which other memlnrs are not equally
entitled. I hare comp to the fountain head, and I appeal
to the Speaker to issue such orders as will prereed the re-
currence of similar scenes. (Hear.)
The matter here dropped.
ASSESSED TAXES COMPOSITION BILL.
This bill was read a recond time.
PUBLIC WORKS, FISHERIES, Sec., BILL.
This bill was also read a second time.

SCHOOL SITES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
lIIGIIWAY ILVIES 131 LL.

This bill wasread a third time stud passed.
ECCLESIASTICAL JURISDICTION BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
COUNTY COURTS FURTHER EXTENSION

COMPENSATION BILL.

The report uiZo;7ltl;lilrieasconsil7r7;i-and agreed to.
LOAN SOCIETIES BILL.

This hill proud through committee.
BURGESSES AND FREEMEN'S PARLIAMENTARY

FRANCHISE BILL.

This ball was read a third time and passed.
VETERINARY SCRGEONS' EXEMPTION BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
MILITIA ESTIMATES.
. .

whole he considered that the best mode of management
would be to take the first clause as it stood, to rime the
two commissioners under the strict control of the 't reasury,
wait till they arrived at that vlause, and then the weak
points of the hill could b.: removed. If his noble friend
should be withdrawn front the Woods and Forests in the
division of the duties—and he doubted if that would be an
expedient change—he thought it desirable that the control
of the Treasury should be stringent over the department of
Woods and Forests. Ile should, therefore, support the
first clause, but vote against the eleventh.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the ease was this :—The
gentleman who had been a commissioner had resigned, on
account of age and infirmity rendering ham incapable of
executing the duties of his office. lie was unable, as he
(Lord J. Russell) had himself seen, to •to to the various
places he ought to have visited; but he had, however,
thought it right to delay his resignation, in order to bear
any charge that might be made against him; but as soon us
theinquiry of the committee was over he sail that he
really could not carry on his duties longer, and requested to
be relieved. Ile (Lord J. Russell) should be of opinion
that the department had been very ill-managed if that gen-
tleman had been continued in an office he was no longer
able to till, and therefore he had appointed a person whom
he believed to be fully competent to the duty. At that
time he doubted of such changes as those in the
Ilth clause, and had no view to the appoint-
ment of a surveyor-general in the bill of last
year. But it might be a desirable change if one
person were appointed in that department, whose
duty was actually to visit the various parts of the
crown lands, and, therefore, the government had taken
power by the eleventh clause to make that change. But
that was no reason for objecting to the whole plan. It was
no objection to the plan proposed that a further improve-
ment tnight hereafter be made, and that the Treasury
should have the power to make that improvement.
Sir W. JOLLIF FE would support the proposal for leaving
out the latter part of the clause.
• After anue further conversation, during which the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer suggested a form of words winch
ho thought would better meet the object without disturb-
ing the general operation of the bill,
Mr. GOULBURN said that if a change was to be made
in the department, this he thought was the time to make
it. If he were now called upon to vote, he should agree to
maintaining the commissioners as they were; and when
they came to the 11th clause he should oppose it.
Lord J. RUSSELL explained. Ile had said it was de-
sirable to keep the two commissioners, but to give the go-
vernment the option of appointing surveyors, if thought
necessary. Of the two alternatives, he should prefer the
former.

Upon the motion of Mr. k . MAULE, the following select
committee was appointed to prepare Militia Estimates :
Mr. Secretary at War, the Judge Advocate, Mr. Hawes,
Mr. Bouverie, Sir William Somerville, Mr. Sidney Her-
bert, Mr. Cornewall Lewis, Sir John Tyrell, and all colonels
of militia, with power to send for persons, palw•r.•, and re-
cords ; five to be the quorum.
TURN TRUSTS.

Mr. C. LEWlSobttinetnease---u; bring in a bill to faci-
litate arrangement, for the relict' of turnpike trusts.
The house tuljourned at a quarter after one o'clock.

After a few words from Mr. HENLEY,
The committee divided—
For the amendment 7O
Against it
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 2 and 3.
On clause 4,
Viscount DUNCAN moved the addition of certain words
—the effect of which, he said, was to carry out a resolution
which he had moved and carried in that house to the effect
that the gross income from the Woods and Forests and land
revenues should be paid into the Exchequer, and that the
expense of management should be voted in the estimates
and annually submitted to parliament.
Lord .1. RUSSELL said thlt which the noble lord
proposed as a rnnedy would be found to be far less
efficient than what her Majesty's ministers proposed. The
source of evil arose from the two offices being united,
the Commissioner of Woods having, in his office,
the land revenues at one side, and on the other
the carrying out of the necessary improvements.
(Hear, hear.) Now, the remedy which her Majesty's
ministers proposed was to separate those offices, and
to compel the commissioners of public works to come before
that house to ask for money for any contemplated improve-
ments. The revenues of the woods and forests by that
means would all go into the exchequer. But the noble
lord proposed that all the expenses of management and
detail should be brought annually before the house. Now
he begged the house to remember how much they had done
in that way in the last few years; and he should say in
conclusion, that if the proposition of the noble lord were
agreed to, and the house should determine on having all
public expenses laid before it annually in the shape of
estimates, it would be quite impossible to take any other
legislation in the course of a session. (hear, hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that the noble lord's argument
was very convenient for the government. The noble lord
said he wu afraid the time of the house would be wasted
by considering the estimates : but how could the time of
tho house be better employed ? (Hear, hear.) No less
than 75 per cent. of the crown lands had been squandered.
It was therefore time that they should be better managed.
If they were, he believed they would produce a sum of
money nearly equal to the civil list.
After a few words from Mr. Rusin, Lord SEYMOUR, Mr.
HENLEY, Mr. V. SMITH, and Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to the part
of the amendment relating to the salaries of the commis-
sioners.
The committee then divided—
For the amendment
Against it • 99-26
The amendment was consequently lost.
That part of the amendment requiring the salaries of the
commissioners, lee., to be defrayed from money voted by
parliament was agreed to.
The clause was then agreed to. The house resumed, and
the chairman reportedp
progress
El 3 E.
Mr. BERNAL reported to the Speaker, that whilst the
house was in committee on the Woods and Forests Bill, a
great disturbance was made at one of the doors of the
.house. He sent the Serjeant-at-Arms to make inquiry as
to the cause of the disturbance, and the answer he re-
turned was that a certain member or members WIN knock-
ing at the door. (A laugh.) The noise being continued
after he had desiried that it should cease, he sent the same
officer to inquire who the member was, and the answer

lad if anyone could tell Odra who sideration compared with the advantages that would be de-
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Westminster- wan Opetiffie h d that the bf 'this till %meld be
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had, %alit iewados, ow' guts • whether the elan Was that required by the
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L. Nobody knew what the tees c up by the eminent of business ; and that it was
quite impossible for the Lord Chancellor to cope with that
IF GLOUCESTER. amount of business without assistance. 'The question then
sed to correct a statement which 'resin what way they. Amid stilted the Lord Chancellor
. . . .. ..