The Express.
London, England, 1849-06-02 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 2, 1849.

SUPPLY.

The house then resolved ltierf into committee of supply.
Upon the question that the sum of 103,4671. be voted for
the maintenance and repairs of the royal palaces and public
buildings,
Mr. OSBORNE expressed his admiration of the personal
character of the sovereign of this country, and the feeling of
the house that her Majesty should occupy a palace creditable
to the country. But hon. members were bound to protect
the public puree, and to inquire into the system by which
these enormous sums were year by year brought before the
House of Commons. He was sure her Msjeaty would be
the last per on to wish that duo sums should be voted away
without a proper inquiry into the system being in.
stitated. Honourable gentlemen who knew nothing of
the estimate', were not aware that, besides a sum of 7501.,
the re was one o' 50,0001 for improving Buckingham palace,
making a total of 60,750/. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer shook his head—(a laugh)—hut that right hon. gentle-
man would admit that the 50,000/. had to be provided.
(Hear.) The house ought to know what had already been
spent on Buekioghem palace. A committee sat in 1841,
and they made • report, by which it appeared that the ag-
gregate sum expended, exclusive of the marble arch, on
Buckingham palace, was 613,296/. If to this were
added other votes amounting to 150,0001., it would
be found that that palace had cost the country
altogether 763,2961. Now, for such a sum as that
the -hones ought to have been able to build • palace
every way fi•tiog for the sovereign ot England, and not the
sort of patchwork building erected in the hole in which
Buckingham Palace stood at present. (" Hear, hear," and
laughter.) So much for the palace. The vote for Windsor
Castle was for 6.5501. for stables and other detached build-
ings, and that was followed by a vote for 10,00 W. for an in-
creased supply of water for general cleansing of drains, sad
especially for the further protection of the castle from Are.
The entire vote was for 16,5501., and the house might proba-
bly say that that was a small sum. But he found that since
the year 1824 there had been expended upon Windsor CAB'
no less a sum than 1,498,5161. Thousands had been ex-
peeded upon it in the glorious days of Oecr,te IV. ; and
amongst other items the sum of 267,0001. had th, n been
paid for furniture. Was this system to continue ? Did hon.
members deserve the name of
.guardians of the public purse
if they suffered it to exist? He hoped they would expn u
some strong opinion upon the subject. It was net his inten-
tion to divide upon the present occasion, because if he did,
he would probably go with only a baker's dozen into
one of the lobbies. (A laugh.) But he wished to
point attention to the fact, that they was allowing
enormous sums to be squandered, and that there was no
hnewing when the miateter would come down to the house
and aak for on' ceased votes. There was, in addition to Buck-
ingham and Windsor, the new palace at Westminster, upon
which 2,000,0001. had already been spent. They were'
erecting a hideous gallery in the Howe of Lords for the re-
porters, and they would not be able, after all their expendi-
ture, to hear one word in the new House of Commons,
(Hear.) He objected to the item of 41. 14s. in the votes for
keeping up the Palace Cowl, rind he must enter his strong
protest against that court in any and every shape. All
the details of these palaces were given in sepa-
rate Totes, but he thought it would be a great
improvement, and that it would tend to put hon. members
on 'heir guard, if the aggregate amount expended upon
these buildings figure din the votes also. He attributed no
fault to the government for the heavy estimates they were
bringing ft,rward, but he called upon the house to put a stop
to the profuse expenditure which was perpetually going on.
(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
his hon. and gallant friend would admit that one of the most
splendid buildings in the ehuntry hod been erected at
Windsor, and that it was necessary to keep it in a Ferfect
state of repair. Now, as there was not any drain at
Windsor Castle, or any means of earring off the water,
or any proper supply of freak water, means must be taken to
make the required improvement., and to prevent the cala-
mity of fire in a building of that kind. (Hear.)
Upon the vote of 14,2001. for the completion of the new
east front of Buckingham Palace,
Mr OSBORNE asked whether there was any estimate of
the saw nee ot tarnishing the new wing of the palace ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in
the negative. The house would be put to no expense what-
ever for furnishing.
Mr. OSBORNE had another question to ask : what was
to be done with the arch ? The arch had cost 80,0001., and
there woe a charue now for taking it down.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could net
-( what was to be done with the arch. It was quite
clear it could not stand where it was, but where it was to be
put had not yet been decid,d.
The vote was age. ed to.
Upon the Tote of 3,284/. for the temporary socommtdation
of the houses of parliament,

Mr. OSBORNE observed that upon these temporary
buildinp upwards of 200,0001. had already been expended.
The east of the ventilation alone had been 120,0001. Mr.
Justice Wightman bad oomplained the other day that he
was unable to sit in his over ventilated court. The counsel
complained of pains in his legs, and the judge of pains in his
head. (Laughter.) Now, that house was tolerably well
ventilated—(bmar, hear)—but the cost of the luxury had

. ,
bus enormous. - I
The vote wu then agreed to.
The next vote, No. 4, was postponed. Vote No. 5, being
46,7711. for the new packet harbour and harbour of refuge
at Holyhead, agreed to.
On the vote of 141,5001. for constructing harbours of

refuge,
Mr. GIBSON said be swished clearly to undentand
whether these harboun were for military or commercial
He had heard it doubted whether the works at
tuorsPe°ret:Ould be of any use to merchant vessels. Indeed, the
French regarded them as military defences.
Mr. ROBINSON, as chairman of Lloyds, thanked the
government for constructing them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that

hefalydeisliedbefor; the miscellaneous estimates committee
last year the steps which had led to the construction of these
harbours. They were, in fact, constructed upon the recom-
mendation of the shipping interest.
The vote was then agreed to, as was that of 10,0001. for
the Caledonian canal.
On the vote of 24,2331. for public buildings in Ireland and
the inland navigation of that country,
Mr. SPOONER, referring to the item of 1,2251. for May-
nooth College, said he had hoped, after the vote of lut year,
that they would not be so soon again called upon to vote
money for this college. He mast object to the propreed sum.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, as
be had explained last year, the vote of last year was for addi-
tions to the college, but it made no provision for the ordinary
repairs, to which this vote applied.
Mr. SPOONER said he would take the sense of the com-
mittee on the vote, awl accordingly moved that it be reduced
by the amount of 1,2251.
The committee divided—
For the motion
Against it 96 —69

The Tito was then agreed to.
9,5601. for the works of Kingstown Harbour.—Agreei to.
93,2001. for the salaries and expenses of the officers of the
two houses of parliament.—Agreed to.
On 67,2001. to defray the expenses of the Treasury de.
partment,
Mr. GOULBURN said he could not concur in the trio-
ciple on which some reductions had been made in the
Treasury It was bad economy to effect a saving if that
saving led to ales efficient discharge of duty. In that
sense be disapproved of the abolition of the two chief
clerks, being convinced that these reductions would have the
effect of throwing important branches of the public business
into incompetent hands.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed
his obligation to the right hon. gentleman for his thus no-
ticing the sacrifice which had been made by his much valued
friend the Secretary to the Admiralty ; with regard to the
reductions and alterations in the Treasury, he took upon
himself the whole responsibility, and be still believed them
to be justified by circumstances. The opinion of those in
the office and otherwise best able to judge of the value of
those reductions war, that they would tend to the efficiency
of the Treasury department.
Mr. HENLEY thought this a favourable opportuoi'y to
urge on the government the reduction of the salaries of
officers, as a consequence of the reduction in the price of all
the necessaries of life. He should, therefore, more that the
vote be reduced by the sum of 5,0401., being a reduction of
10 per cent. on the salaries. If this were agreed to, he should
propose a similar reduction in other items; but he thought it
better to begin with the treasury.
Mr. SLANEY said the parties proposing this reduction
had opposed the alteration of the corn laws. If the reduction
in prices ware permanent, he would support a reduction of
salaries, but it would be right to wait a year or two to see
what would bathe effect. It would be the worst possible
policy to underpay the o '.cers of government.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
salaries of the higher offices of government had been in-
quired into by two committees, in last year and in 1831,
when they were fixed at the present amount. Before 1831,
the Secretaries of State received 6,0001 and fees; they were
reduced to 5,0001. The Lord Privy Seal was also reduced
to 4,0001. So that, were they to revert to the period referred
to, the result would be an increase instead of a reduction.
In the committee of last year, • reduc.ion had been
proposed in the salaries of the First Lord of the Treasury end
the Chancellor of the Exchequer; this was negatived by
' 11 to 2 ; and the hon. member for Oxfordshire voted against
the reduction. The committee reported that they did not
recommend any alteration in the salaries of the Leeds of the
treasury. But the amendment dealt also with the selaries of
the lower officers. As the hon. member for the West Rid-
ing had said, the other day, the officers of government gene-
rally were not over-paid.
I Mr. COBDEN—I beg your pardon. I was speaking of
the officers of the army and navy, and I said that thee. on I
active service were not overpaid, but that we had too many
of them. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER must repeat
his conviction that the public to generally were not
too highly paid, considering the responsible and important
nature of their services. It had been said that the reduction
in the price of provisions was so considerable as to balance
the income-tax. He rejoiced that the hon. gentleman oppo-
site bore such decided testimony to the good effects of thu
free-trade measures, and should be glad to find such a re-
duction in his own bills as to bear out the statements made
by the hon. gentleman. (Hear.)
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY said, he should vote for the
'meadow nt. tie knew that the great mass et articles of
consumption were reduced frrm 20 to 25 per cent.
Sir H. VERNEY opposed the amendment.
Mr. HENLEY said be did not think the salaries of the
chief officers of government too high, and on that ground
had opposed particular reductions in the committee. For
the same reason he now 'wronged a general reduction of 10
per cent., believing that the circumstances of the country
warranted it.
Mr. COBDEN wished to state the reasons why he should
support the amendment, inasmuch they were not the same
as those given by hon. gentlemen opposite. Hon. members
opposite had supported it on the ground that a great reduc-
tion had taken place in the price of commodities, and they
attributed that reduction to recent commercial legislation.
He would remind the house that if recent corn- '
menial legislation bad afiected the price of corn,
it had not affected the price of manufactures. Cotton and
woollen goads were previous to that legislation sold cheaper
here than in any country on the face of the earth ; other-
wise they could not have been exported to all parts of the
world. The recent commercial legislation had been of very
Crest o.vantage to the c immunity which he represent el,
and had so far rendered them better able to pay these sala-
ries. He wished to guard himself against being supposed
to give a kind of vindict've vote against the government.
The tone of hon. gentlemen rpporite indicated that they
wished to take revenge against the government for their
commerjal policy—(hear, hear)—but for his own pert, his
vote would be given now on the same grounds as it would
have beta five years ago. (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion
that the blither functionaries in the civil departments were
paid more than they need be. He was not, indeeel, for pay-
ing low salaries ; nor was he one of those who thought that
cheap bread meant li•er wages; but he must say that when a
minister revived 5,0001. a-year, there was room for reduction,
while an ample sum was left to maintain the state, rank,
and dignity of than great officers. He would undertake to
say that it was more than double the amount paid to any
similar functionary in any country in the world ; an I
ministers of state abroad did not, he believed, find any diffi•
cnity in discharging the duties a their offices. One of the
advantages which he contemplated would result from put-
ting their highest functionaries on lower salaries was this,
that they would probably afterwards set the fashion here, is
imitation of that of other countries, of adopting. • greater
simplicity of habit of lieing, so as t., be able to indulge in
hospitality at a less extravagant rate. If the salary of
5,000/. • year were reduced to 4,0001., be thought the
amount would still be very high, and he did not think
any man, whatever might be his private fortune, would
be precluded from filling these offices. The filling of
the office of Secretary of State did not necessarily involve any
great additional expenditure on the part of the individual ;
on the contrary, the man who had almost incessant occupa-
tion, bad but 'little time for extravagance. The mode in
which the boa. gentleman proposed to save this 6,040/. was
one of which he (Mr. Cobden) could not approve. It would
got be rat to sltlltc 10 err cent. oft the wipda of ale warms.
Ia the Treasury there were a great number of clerks, is emir-
fag 1501.,1461., and 1091. a year ; and in the same establish-
ment there were messengers receiving 701. With such
salaries he would on no account deal in the same manner as
with salaries of 5,0001. (Hear, hear.) And, if the amend-
ment were carried,he would certainly propose that the saving
should be distributed in a manner different from that pro-
posM by the ben. gentleman. The country was indebted to the
hen. ger tleman for facing the government as he had done by
manic, a reduction of their selaries, and if the amendment
were carried the redustion effected would, he believed, lead
to cerrsepending reductions in other departments. If the
First Lord of the Treasury had not 5,0001. a year, he would
not, perhaps, get up in that house and say that he thought a
bishop ought to have 10,0001. or 12,0001. a year. (Hear,
hear.) Other important reductions might be expected to
follow the reduction of the salaries of the 'sinister' of the
crown.
The committee then divided—
Foe the amendment
Against it

The vote was then agreed to.
Oa 25.4001. being proposed, to pay the salaries and ex-
penses of the home department,
Mr. COBDEN asked the hon. member for Oxfordshire
(Mr. Henley) whether he meant to persevere in his preposal
of reduction with regard to other departments ? Hau no-
tice been given, many other hon. members would, he be-
liever', have supported the hon. member. (Hear, hear.) It
would evidently benseless to propose reductions then, but he
would suggest that • motion should be brought forward
embroution all departments.
Mr. HENLEY said his object had been to lay down a
general principle. Ac regarded the notice, he had not been
aware that the nti,teellareous estimates were coming on that
evening ; the printed notice rather applied to the commis-
sariat. If • general reduction were carried out, entending
to.all the government departments, he believed a saving
of front 600,0001. to 100,0001.
might be effected.
Mr. MITCHELL loped that the hon. member for the
West Riding of Yorkehire would binteelf give notice of a
motion for a general reduction of cutleries in the government
departments.

The vote was then egreed to.
The following votes were then pawed without discussion:
76,0001. for the salaries and expenses of the Forciga Da.
partment.
36,900/. for war and the colonies.
43,0001. for the Privy Council for Trade.
2,0001. for the Wiry of the Lord Privy Seal.
23,9001. for the office of the Paymaster Gi neral.
6,6261. for the department of the Comptroller• General tif
the Exchequer.
2,7001. fee the State Paper Office.
3,6401. for the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Comm elopers
for England.
240,0001. was then proposed to defray the expenses one.
netted with the administration of the laws relating to tits
. .

Mr. HENLEY wished to know why the sum of 103,0001.
in the previous year had been increased this jeer to
107,0001.1
Mr. BAINES replied that in the English expenses the he.
crease in the present year amounted to only 8531., which was
thug accounted for. In the early part of last year his right
hen. predecessor was of opinion that 11 inspectors would be
sufficient for the duties to be ?cribbage' by earn otheert. lit
the summer he became convinced that it was no to
have 13, a conclusion which subsequent calorie:use:lQ
proved to be correct. Two additional inspectors were sp
pointed, and 8531. was the amount due to them for the time
they had been actually engaged.
Captain PECHELL expressed his strong approval of the
recent administration of the peter law, and hoped that be
alterations introduced by the late Mr. C. Buller would be
carried out by his successor.
Mr. F. FRENCH objected to the item of 63.0001, for
poor law expenses in Ireland, and proposed, as ae amend-
ment, to substitute for it 30,0001., the expense incurred in
1835.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the expenditure had
and tubtedly been very heavy during the past year in Ira,
land ; he hoped that a large portion of it would not recto,
trusting, as he did, that the calamitous CirCUM,Lintos which
had necessitated it would be exceptional.
Sir H. VERNEY pointed out that each of the English
inspectors had 70 or 80 unions requiring his censtant per-
sonal supervision.
The gallery was cleared for a division but none took
placa, the mover of the amendment not obtaining a co teller.
The vote was accordingly agreed to., •
The next vote was 45,694/. to defray:the expenses of the
Mint.
In reply to Mr. THORNELT,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the issue of 2s. piezespromieed last year had been int. rrupted
by the discovery that an act of parliament wool I be tithes-
eery to authorial the issue of a new coin. A bill, however,
had been prepared for the putpase, which stood for hitch
duction that day.
't he vote was agreed to.
The next vote was 7,9951., to defray the charge of the
Commissioners of Railways.
Mr. HENLEY admitted that the vote under this head was
very satisfactorily decreased. It was rather out of curiosity
than far any other reason that he would ask .he meaning of
one item in this vote of 601. for newspapere, en item not
occurring in the charge for any other public department.
Was it that the officials in this department had so wetter!,
nothing to do, that newspapers were to he provided for their
entertainment. (A lautsb.)
Mr LABOUCHERE said that hie sttention had not hue
especially drawn to the item in quotation, but he te nerivell
that the newspapers supplied were them railway journale
the contents of which were expedient, if not abtolu ely
emery, for the administration of the department. As to
the vote itself, it exhibited a very material reduction apt
that of the previous year, which was 10,6001., while the
charge In tho first year of tke board was 17,000!.
The vote was then agreed to, as were the following:
12,8221. for the record office.
11,8791. for the inspectors of mines. factorier. &e.
1,7551. for the salaries of certain officers in Scotland, sad
other charges formerly paid out of the hereditary reeeennof
that kingdom.
6,4641. for the officers and attendants of the household 01
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.
24,2351 fin the salaries and expenses of the chief secretary
of the LOrd-Liententint cf Ireland in Dublin and London,
and the privy council in Ireland.
5,4561. for the charge of the office of paymaster of cid
services, Ireland.
39,392/. for the salaries and expenses of the b 'toed of public
works, Ireland.
39.0001, for 'oreign and other secret service.
277,762/. for the :parses of stationery and printinz and
binding in the 1 public departments, including the
charge of her Majesty's stationery-office.
In relation to this vote,
Mr. COBDEN asked whether there would he any ohjee.
(inn to change the form of the blue-hooks from folio to
octavo. The change would be to the infinite oce.vinience of
every person who had to handle the volumes, end he was
prepared to show that there would be a saving of (nom 20 to
30 per cent. effected by tho alteration. There was already
before them one blue-book in the octivo form, a report of
the sanitary comenioien, which diatinc.ly illustrated the
gre .ter ronyeeience of that form. (Ilear, bear.) As to sta-
tistical tablet., they could be given just as well in the 'soars
as in the folio !orm; this was proved by the elaborate tahles
given in the octavo volumes of MtCulloch, Porter, and
other statistical writers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the greater economy of the octavo form was disputed.
Mr. COBDEN s,id be could prove the economy Le had
staled before a committee, if the right hon. gentlemsu would
give him one far a fortnight.
16,0007., to compl te the sum necessary to defray law
chancre, and the salaries, fee., in toe office of the toliciter to
the Treasury.
9,0001., ter the prosecution of offenders against the lees
relating to coinage.
17.700/., for cornet, of sheriffs, formerly defrayed eat of
civil centiepencies ; also for the amount requ:red to make
good the deficiency in the fees of the Queen's remembrance
in the Excheqtter, and for other purposes.
69,9911. for the expense of criminal pros' cations, and for
other law chug., it. le..and.
10.3701. for the salaries and expenses of the isselreat
debtors court.
73,7301. for law expenses in Scotland.
35,5001. towards the charge of the metropolitan i
Dublin.
258,000!. to defray certain charges formerly paid out of
the county rates.
On the v to of 702,523/. for prisons and convict establish.
meats, at home and abroad,
Mr. HENLEY commented upon the increase which this
vote had presented in recent years.
Sir G. GREY admitted that the aggregate amount of the
vote was larger than it had 'teen in former you-4. It must
he remembered, how..ver, that no less a sum than 33,000 L
had been transferred from the navy estimates to close esti-
mates for the conveyance cf transports from this country.
There was also a further sum of 28,0001. on account of va-
riety atd prisons in Ireland, which had formerly been
charged upon the consolidated fund.
Mr. HENLEY said there was another item to which he
wished to draw the attention of the committee, the txtravr
neat charge for the maintenance of criminal lunatics. The
cost for maiutsining 11l patients in Bethlehem amounted to
.1,8401. per annum, a much larger sum than was arid is other
public lunatic asylums.
Sir G. GREY nit! the vote was less than it bad
been in forms )ears. An inquiry was being instituted
into the subject, but he thought it must be admitted that
bromic' who had been guilty of murder and such dreadful
crimes requited more attenUon and supervision than the or-
dinary clots or lunatics.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was a sum of 125,0001. for public educa-
tion ice Great Britain.
Mr. HENLEY said he bad not expected that th'e yob
would have been brought on to-night. lie knew there was
a very strong feeling in the coun•ry that it was not fairly ad-
ministered by the itevernmenL (Hear, hear.)
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 120,0001 for defraying the expenses of the
Commiesionere of National Education in Ireland,
Mr. GROGAN said he understood that the comtnissiorers
had brought out two books of poetry—one a biographical
account of the poets from Chancer down to the most need
tetrad ; the other extracts from the same poets—and these
for the education of pauper children. It appeared to hiss
that the commissioners might bo much better employed.
The vote was then agreed to, as were the following •
10.0001. for the school of design and for aid to preriarial
schools.
2,0061. for salaries and allowances to certain professors Of
the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge.
4,0001. for the University or London.
7,430/. for gt ants to Scottish Universities.
3001. for the Royal Irish Academy.
300!. for the Royal Mien= Academy.
6,0001. for the Royal Dublin Society.
3,1001. for the Royal Belfast Academical 'retitle ice.
36,2881. for new buildings and firings at the BMA
Museum.
1,500/. to enable the trustees of the British )(SWUM to de-
fray the expanse of collecting antiquities.
On the vote of 1,300/. for the National Gallery,
Sir W. JOLLIPFE inquired if' it were in content adios
to provide better accommodation for the pictures of the Vet-
non Gallery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the present state of the couotry, he did not feel Mame
justified in proposieg any additional expense for the er..etio•
of • new gallery fee thous pictures, although he rdn.itted
that it would be very desirable to procure some more suitable
accommodation for them.
' The vote was agreed to, as were the farming :
18,0091. for the geological survey of Great Britain see
Ireland
the museum of Irish Industry, Du .
5,0001. for magnetic observations at Toronto, St. Ilelense
; the museum of prectietingeology, London; sna
liner Reyal and Colonel Bobbie.
2,800/. for complt ring_ the monument in Trafalgar-square
observations
Cianapetionsot GeoaondyHinogp:n,
to the memory of Esrl Nelson.
aunnddeNr'stahel)diirellecltinol ollatnh'S'AlUdreso-for
4,019/. for the civil establishment of the Bermuda..
2,0001. for the civil establithir.;nt u! Prince Edward"

Island.
On the vote of 11,5781. for the eeclesisstical eatabli basal
of the British Mwth American prsvinces,
Mr. J. B. SMITH said he thought the time hail ease
when Canada should support its own institution'. He ob
jected to paying tor the church establishments of any coloay.
Mr. HAWES said the rote would termlnate wilt the
lives of the present incumbents. It wag rail at I'r, '.at is
accordance with a distinct compact.