The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-02 00:00:00

CUSTOMS DUTIES.

Lord G. BENTINCK would be glad to learn from the
right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he
intended to prom d with the Customs Duties Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER bad fixed it
for Friday next. If he should not be able to proceed with
it on that day he would postpone it until Friday fortnight.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.

Mr. HINDLEY asked the noble lord at the head of the
t if he was prepared to state the amount he in-
=Nl for the educational grant in the miscel-
laneous and whether he intended to bring specially
before the wades of the house the minutes of the council of
educadon, laid on the table the 6th day of February, or leave
them to be Incidentally discussed on the vote for education
being proposed in the committee of supply.
Lord J. RUSSELL (who was but imperfectly audible in
thruallery) was understood to say that the sums to be pro-
in the miscellaneous estimates for the purposes of
nadowel education would be the same as last year, but it
was not his intention to introduce any new regulation as to
the application of those funds.
In answer to Mr. Ewaat,
The same Noma Loan vu understood to say that the
sums proposed would be 100,0001. for England, and 100,0001.
for Inland.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
In answer to a question from Mr. gnaw'
Lord J. RUSSELL said he intended to commit the Poor
Relief (Ireland) Bill immediately after the committee of
ways and means.
THE DISTRESS IN THE WEST OF SCOTLAND.

Kr. ieffilEt;egied theattention ortiel;;;;I;;; few
nomads while he referred to some statements which
bed bum made in that house relating to the
litres as tie vast coast of Scotland. On that
Ise mamma big been made to a report by
dui drerfirraddlhlas of Fort William, into which
tortilla chirps bed been introduced against proprie-
tors in that district, that they had been neglecting
their tenants. Ames, others was one against Macdonald
of Olengarrie, to the effect that that proprietor had 150 bolls
of meal for the relief of the poor, but the store-bonne had

been locked up since Christmas, and not a pound could be
got out for love or money. He had received a letter lat-ly
from Mr. Macdonald, in which he stated that in Notember
last, he hid sent from his bolls
resources 201. in money,
100 bolls of meal, and 100 bolls of Indian corn, besides ice
and biscuits. That was sent for the purpose of Ming eisi-
; his factor had instructions to that effect, and a
reetir front that factor last week stated that he had
complied, and he was desired to continue to do era Mr.
Macdonald was a man of the highest honour, and
he (Mr. Baillie) stated this upon his credit. He regretted
to state that the Blue Book which had been published eon-
tai.ted grave charges, and had been published previous to
time being given for answer/ from the proprietors. It had
been reported concerning Mrs. Stewart M'Kenzic, by Sir E.
I Coffin, not only that Ached neglected her tenants generally,
but that two persona had died ofstarvation on her estates. Now,
she had made inquiry, and the result was, that two persona
had died of natural muses, the one being an old womwt be-
tween eighty and ninety years of age, and the otker her
daughter, who died of consumption, being, while they lived,
within two or three miles of a meal store, opened by Mrs.
Nl'liensie, and out of which she had ordered that relief
should be given to the destitute.
Mr. E. ELLICE, juu., said he had received a similar com-
munication from Lord Cranstoun, requiring him publicly to
contradict the statements of the sheriff (Mr. Frazer). He
had declined, however, Mr. Frazer's report being an official
document. He had referred the noble lord to the Lord Ad-
vocate. He thought that warm thanks were due to Captain
role and Sir E. Coffin fur the manner in which they had
carried out the intentions of government in relieving the
distress. (Hear, hear.)
Sir O. GREY said that government would before this have
published the Blue-book, containing the charges alluded to,
but that the evidence was not yet complete. The officers of
government had in every case of deetitution reported it to
the proprietors, end amongst the rest to Mrs. WE erizie.
That lady had received the communication with prompt at-
tention, and immediately proceeded to take measures for the
relief of her tenants. (Hear, hear.)

RAILWAYS (IRELAND).
Mr. COLLETT was unwilling to take up the time of the
hove, but he thought it his duty to mention certain facts
which had come to his own knowledge, and which bore upon
the employment of the poor in Ireland. He thought it fair
to state, that since the de:iate on the bill of the noble lord the
member for Lynn, he (Mr. Collett) had made inquiries, and
he could state, that in the island of Antelesea, where the
potato crop had failed, to as great an extent as in Ireland, the
' formation of a railway had induced • state of prosperity un-
exampled in that island. The Holyhead Railway Clom-
ping lad emplayad from 3,400 to 4,000 labourers, out ad
which number 2,500 were Welshmen, 700 Irishmen,
and about 300 Englishmen. They bad only ex-
pended about 100,0001 The same fact was seen in some of
the Irish railways. If they looked at the railway from
Maryborough through l'hurles to Mallow, they would find
that a state of prosperity resulted from the expeuditure of
capital by that line, within ten miles en each side of the
railway. On the Dundalk line and on the Carlow Railway
the same thing wu to be seen. On the latter line there was
not one Englishman employed, except, perhaps an overseer.
The right hon. gentleman the secretary for Ireland told
them a few nights ago that the prosperity of Ireland next
year depended on the labourers being imployed
during the next six weeks in agricultural oiierations.
Ile did not state, however, that draining would eminence
on a large scale in the months of April or May.
If the government would consent to the removal of those
obnoxious regulations which prevented a fair day's wages
being given for • fair day's week, the baronies would ha
willing to come forward with half a million of money for tie
purpose of assisting in providing employment to the able-
bodied labourers to the but of their ability.
. . .

Mr. P. SCROPE was by no means satisfied as to the
security of relief to the destitute in Ireland, previous to the
new set coining into operation. Whether the aged and in-
firm had a claim to relief under the Poordaw, WIR a ques-
tion as yet unsettled. With regerd to the pressure upon
property, the value of the property liable to the relief of the
poor during the last year—a year of famine—was 15 millions.
The amount actually rated was 134 millions ; and yet the
whole sum raised was only 390.000/.—an average of 71d. in
the pound on the value. And from the accounts from the
union of Castlebar, when all relief had been refused to
the peer, and when the workhouse had been cloned against
them for flee months, and hundreds had—as the inquests
proved—been starved to death, the rate had amounted
during the whole four 3 ears that the Poor-law had been in
operation, to no more then 41d. in the pound. The ques-
tion he had put was confined to the infirm poor, fir whom,
as he understood the right hon. gentleman's statement, no
immediate provision was contemplated either by the relief
committee or the Poor-law.
Mr. LABOUCHERE, considering that the house would
shortly have an opportunity of discussing the Irish poor-law,
would not now go into that question. The government had al-
ready stated their opinion that the present poor-law was not
adequate to provide for the wants of the destitute pose, and
had evinced their sincerity by announcing their intention of
bringing in a bill to amend and enlarge it. That measure
would be shortly before the house, and be should then be
prepared to discuss it. He wished, however, to guard against
a misconstruction which his hon. friend appeared to have
fallen into as to the effect of his previous answer. He by no
means despaired that the mode the government bad
adopted, and were adopting, to organise an extensive
system of immediate relief by soup kitchens and
other means, would have a tendency to check the
destitution in Ireland. He was of opinion that the present
poor-law required amendment, hut whatever poor-law might
be passed, he had never entertained the idea that it would
be competent to meet aid provide for the misery and desti-
tution consequent upon an infliction like the present.
Sir DE LACY EVANS and Sir H. DOUGLAS having
respectively postponed till Monday next their motions as to
the retired allowances to general officers, medical officers,
and paymasters, in order not to delay the government busi-
ness, the house resolved itself into a committee of
WAYS AND MEANS—THE EIGHT MILLION LOAN.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, having ac-
knowledged the kindness with which the house had listened
to him when he brought for card the budget of the year, ob-
served that on that occaeion he had stated that in orris r to meet
the extraordinary demand made on the treasury by tho present
exigency of distress in Ireland be thought it right to have
recourse to a loan of eight millions, and it gave Min very
great satisfaction to find that the house generally ;.pproved
of that course. It was now his duty to announce that he
had entered into an arrangement for that loan of eight
millions—(hear)—and in the committee of ways artrl means
into which the house had just resolved itself he was about to
move resolutions oonfirmstory of such arrangement. On
some few occasions it had been the practice for the govern-
ment to enter into loans previous to making any announce-
ment of their inteetion to the house—but that had been by
no mean, a uniform practice, and more than once when loans
were required for the st r vice of the state, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had declared his inteutiolito the house before enter-
Mg into any contract. On the occasion of the last loan an act of
parliament authorising the government to raise it was mooed
some montha before the arrangement was actually entered
into. In making the announcement, therefore, he bad fol-
lowed a course for which he found ample precedent, which
was free, as far as he knew, from any possible disadvantage,
and which, at the same time, he thought more respectful
and more consistent with his duty to the house. (Hear.)
The question for him was how he could obtain the money on
the easiest terms for the public, and having consulted with
those who were best informed on the subject, be was told
that that object would be best attaiued by giving 3 per cent.
consolidated stock as the security for the advance. This was
the coarse which, on former occasions, had been taken, and
which he had already stated he intended to follow. This
morning, according to previous invitation, several parties
attended at the Treasury to tender for the loan. Two offers
were made, and these were identical in axonnt, being,
as he understood, the result of previous arrangement.
The offer made was 891. 10s. for every 1001. stock, and this
was a sum, which, on the best consideration he could give
to the subject, and after consultation with the metes to
lebna be had already alluded, he thought he could fairly
=itand, looking at the present state of the money
he believed it wee u high an amount es he had rea-
son to expect would be offered. AU he had further to state
was in reference to the rate of interest at which this sum was
raised, and that would be in answer to some observations
which bad been made on a previous evening, to the effect
that he expected to pay 31 per cent. That was not his esti-
mate. In announcing the intention to raise this loan, it
was also neosmary for him to state what the probable charge
would be. Having to fix a sum, he took the mean between
3 sad 4 per amt., and named 34 per cent. m th=tiatl:
rate of interest, as it was necessaryin making the
that he should debit himself with sore specific sum. Bat
the interest which would fall on the country by this arrange-
ment wonld not in fact be equal to 31 per cent., but as agar
m might be to 31. 7s. 6d. per cent. A calculation which had
beam made in the revenue room of the Treasury brought it
down to 31. 7s. ; but taking the interest which would be due
from January to Much, it would be as near as possible
31. 71. fld. The whole annual charge for interest on this loan
would be 268,1561., and adding charges of management, the
total would be 270,8001., which was within the amount he
had estimated when he announced his intention to raise the
loan. He bad allowed no discount, as the advance was not
called for immediately, hut had adopted the usual course
taken in such operations in France and elsewhere of giving
stook for all the instalments (except the first) as the money
was paid in. This was no Ices to the government, while it
afferded facilities to the contractors to send the stock into the
market. The right hen. gentleman then moved resolutions
authorizing the raising of the loan, at the rate of 891. 10s.
for every 1001. stock 3 per cent. annuities, interest to cora.
mem. from the 7th of January, 1847, and to be paid
out of the consolidated fund. Every contributor to
pay 12 per cent. upon the whole amount of his con-
tract on the 15th of March, as security for the figure
payments, which was to be made in equal instahnents of
12 per cent. on the 9th of April, 7th of May, 11th of June,
9th of July, 6th of August, and 3rd of Septasabs r ;
and the remaining 16 per cent. on the 15th October. On
the matter of interest, the right hon. gentleman explained
that it had always been the practice (in the West Indian
and other loans) to allow interest from the dividend day
previous to the making of the loan.
The resolution having been put,
Mr. HUME inquired whether the interest was to be paid
in July upon the whole loan from the Ist of January, or
only upon the instalments actually paid up ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that the interest upon the whole would commence from
January last, but no part of it would h-
If any contributor should ha.. -
*Umtata before the
titled to receive half
in January, 1648; but
July, the party would
he would receive a y
any stock given in
April, Hey, and June
in July.
Mr. HUME.—In '
money by instalments

r;;t7i it V.1id14,--p:TaiLlii i;i7.
ihould have paid up the whole of his in.
dividend day in July, he would be en . .
a year's dividend ? nand model -::
ut should they not be up until star -
Id not be entitled tin hammy, whet J.%
year's dividend 7bisphe whole. Ent ' is,
exchange for the paid Ibt the '. "`,
ne instalments, wo
.. 41ishatt,'r..
11,4:.
that case we • .'.J.
is extending over
ShUltdX.l,

interest upon tbo whole from January. He regretted the 1
telatlie takes by the Chancellor of the Excheepter, and was
=Wed the public euuld Nee by it. He had no doubt this
stock would be at 3 or 4 premium to-morrow in the market.
Ile would not, were he the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
have left himself opi 0 to the charge of giving facilities to the
contractoes to combine together; and without previous
arrangement it was impossible the two parties could have hit
en the acme sum. If gevernroent had advertised for tenders,
leaving the sums in each case open to the parties tendering,
they would bare had otters from ten or twenty houses, and
would have obtained the money on much better terms to the
public. Had this course been taken, he believed half • mil-
lion of money might have been saved.
Mr. \V. WILLIA .1S should have thought, from the
right hoe. gentleman's statement, that the credit of the
country had suffered during the last forty eight boon, had
he not seen the paper. of Saturday. 170,000,000 hid been
added to the national debt by this system of contracting
loans. In the pees nt instance, according to the price of the
fund., the Chancellor of the Esehequer had tttrown away 2
per cent. He hel ' that government should a'ways insist
upon lf. principal for If. stock, whatever interest they paid
for the loan. If the right hon. gentleman had issued
4,000,000 of Exchequer bills at lid. a-day, which was more
than 3 per cent., they would have maiiitained that clan of
securities at • premium, acid by a very moderate advance of
deficiency bill., supposing his estimate of income to be cor-
rect, would have obtained the msney required. And thus
Exchequer bills might have been forded as the state of the
money market offered the opportunity of doing so with ad-
vanta
He..
Mr. UME complained that the question of loan had not
been left open to competl'ion—the loan te be effected in
several sums ; as if so, the right hon. gent would have re-
ceived tenders from twenty public bodies, and no doubt
been able to get better t. runs for the cuuntry.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, be
had left it open to competition; that his proposition was,
who would give him most money for 1001. stock, intimating
that he would expect not less than 891. 10s., to which
amount he had received offers from two parties
Mr. WILLIAMS asked who were the parties.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Mesas.
Rothschild and Baring.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the house having
resumed, was ordered to be reported to morrow (this day.)
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL nu to move that the house resolve
itself into a committee for the purpose of proposing two
clauses to be sub-tituted for clauses 2 and 3 in this bill.
He did not wish to invite discussion on them now, but
to go Into committee pro forma, that the bill as
might be printed, and the discussion taken on
next. The following are the clauses:
tat be la anialisil. that it at any time It emit be Aeon to the satis-
fied= dins Peer-taw Commandment th,t by nano agile want of
rem be Me weedieess d any tomisa, adequate rind mom be at-
teriedineen mantels peer ..ies, sot Integuseans penamonatf
didiel as anomeld i et Mat IM libssee es ow aim, by seem
dna edition Merin d Imre et Weds= Amin
_le Tient be the
sendlasef tem le del te lawlit *Elbe said emmlerlinses
hen thee to Mum by man thdr bads and soaks, eadnehe
and the gunner demi man tediseleirer sad en et
the noshhauN le wad dsetnne mews= Or sap tiee net inmea-
kg two Wieder minds Item the Ibis et wadi teedist
stem., thst ft did be Midi he the mid eanalestemeaft any Ina
dee the nab& sod Whim the tidied= el sad eider, le mei
Os aims by m mgr mar Mak he bead wad Ow thme germs&
end he ft smind, Meese Me reeds by de merdiem elm man
dew ma albs wentirideg suet et et the werlibmse as dm-
add. Min eh& be eel are Wear emeswared sad telaired is code
pesetelm Isir WI mid en erne vierlibemed dednde
mar gemeer, not pewee swesseerity dbebYd se
Sir end timer Eel be madded In Me "mil sr mat=
Odurtialltheumbed : pedded always net eft ensear. d alms ale of
In Illnanalle as elliebadled gams en* a the aarhertt y et
Elaver Mai be elven la Ad ally, save as hereinafter
y send edema an unmet arroista.
dime 1 thispiropseed to alter the liability of the
=, mid Is flaw It up to a certain amount on the elec-
dielriels; belt that if it exceeded 2.e. 6d. in the pound
the WNW should be chanted to the union at large. They
blewiee proposed • change respecting the number of ex
officio guardians. According to the amended poor-law
of England any number of magistrates who served in
a union were es oji c io members of the board of
guardians. In Ireland they were elected from the entire
number of magistrates, and formed one third of the guar-
dians ; and what he proposed was, that a number might be
elected equal to the number of elected guardians, so that
they might form one Ma of that body. They also pro-
to introduce a clause similar to that in the temporary
bell, giving power to the poor-law commissioners to remove
the boarded guardians on the nonperformance of their ditty,
and appoint paid guardians in their stead. There was
another point on which they intended to make some change.
The house was aware that in England, persons with eufficient
means for their own subs stence, whether in land or personal
property, had no claim to relief; and it was pivoted by the
hon. member for Dublin, that no relief should be given in
Ireland to person, possessing about half an acre of land.
Now, with respect to that, he thought they stood be-
tween two dangers. If they said that persons should be
required not to possess any land whatever before they re-
ceived relief, there was the danger that poor persons would
either be deprived of their cottages or refused relief. On the
other hand, if relief were to be given to persons occupying •
certain portion of land, more than half an acre, there was
the danger by such course of encouraging the worst species
of holding in Ireland It had been stated to him from many
limiters that the encouragement of such occupations as
about half an acre of land would seriously injure the coun-
try. (Hear hear.) On that point, therefore, the govern-
ment wished to take further time for consideration. They
quite agreed in the opinion that it would not be right gene-
rally that persons occupying land should receive relief, but
he thought there might he some definition given to that occu-
pation, so that a person having a cottage and a small plot of
ground might not be debarred from receiving relief. The
noble lord concluded by expressing his desire to proceed as
qnickly as possible with this bill, and the bill for the improve-
ment of land in Ireland./
Sir R. PEEL asked whether the noble lord proposed,
during the period the workhouse was full, to give the right
to relief to destitute persons within the union, as in England ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the right would not be exactly
the same as in England, there being, amongst others, this
difference, that the relief would be given in food. At pre-
sent relief was given in England to many families on account
of one member of that family being ill. It was not proposed
to enact anything of that kind in the present bill. So far it
wined differ from the English poor-law ; but, at the same
time it would give the right to relief in the workhouse, and
In the event oft hat being full, would empower the Poor-law
Commissioners to issue an order by which the guardians
would be obliged to give out-door relief.
After a few words from Mr. AL BILLOW, who was un-
derstood to approve of the amendments,
Mr. J. O'CONNELL expressed his regret that the noble
lord was giving up the uniformity sneers of rating, and
feared the change would prove a great mistake. If the magi.-
trate, were to be put in equal numbers with the elected
guardians, he hoped some means would be taken to cheek
the practice which had grown into • grievance of interfering
with*the religion of the paupers.
Sr D. NOR REYS likewise objected to the proposed mode
of rating, which he suspected the noble lord had been led
into by certain recent meetings of Irish members, Instead of
first consulting the opinion of the whole body in that house.
Why should the paupers of Ireland be charged upon districts
that had no hand whatever in creating those paupers ? It
was lately stated in a petition from Kerry that while the
rating in one electoral division would be 2s. Bd., another
would be rated at 9d.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL considered that the noble lord's
provision would double the difficulties of the question of
rating, and that the uniform system was the best and the only
just system they could adopt.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN was understood to object to the
alteration proposed in the boards of guardians,which he con-
tended was not extended in a popular direction.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said that under the English poor-law
there was a power given to the boards of guardians to grant
relief out of the house in cases of sudden and urgent neces-
sity, of which they were to be the judges. Did the noble
lord intend to extend the same right to Ireland ?
Sr G. GREY spoke a few words across the table in reply,
which were quite inaudible.
Mr. P. SCROPE hoped this power of relief in sudden and
urgent sun of necessity would be taken into consideration.
Hs limight a great part of the alterations in the bill were in
Meese the landlords and rate-payers. He thought there
abeedd be we Wieuriderstanding as to the extension of • wer
a Mid to every class in Ireland as it was is and
that no am field be left to sages. Hew ej be know
whether the pewee of airbag relief to the abisibedled poor
was to Messina be wadi time as the weatherman some full.
He dm.* lbs asionlies of the nimbi" et esellele guar-
dians wee a peat wreeessioa to the leader*, ea that the
pore tesehl man by It. At present, the small femme who
mall Mew of land were not allowed es 111111 a re-
sell Hay gave up their property. This we set done
by the peolaw is Scotland, and was a great bereidp II a
men k de position required relief from alekneem, et defi-
cisme, if mtgs. He did not perceive that than was any
sheaths la the Oh algae, which medal oddest re-
lief be perms poweaaantly disabled. Thit was a plasse
are le the peentaw, and compreheeded a very small
peahen a the astltiite. In England set-door relief we
patted to aim different classes, and the totally disabled was
may ISO of them. He trusted that the gorse-law in Ireland
wadi be assimilated to that in England, but if such manic-
lieme WON matainied in it, it would afford very inadequate
gait Timm ibmad be a power of out-door relief to desti-
ne,* mama awl ddldren. He wished to know if the noble
ised prepead to tatrawe a bill for the suppression of vs-
C:=gail eareadiatimey is Ireland. 1 he noble lord in in-
tie leirik Poor-law in 1838, stated, that it was
eased on the daubs to put down • and mendicancy ;
bat they had sot been diminished, far put down.
Me. LEPROY wished to know how far the wcekhouse
tot would be issmined by the addition of houses of accom-
modation. The more the question of onion-rating was dis-
gusted the mere desirable it would be found that the electoral
division cyan should be adhered to.
Mr. CALLAGHAN said that the great majority of the
petitions punented this 'melon were not in favour of the
rating by tbs electoral divisions but even of a more extended
ran than anima rating. Almost all the differences among
guardians arose on the subject of rating by elec-
enerdlw4aw eisisms. In his opinion if the rating were extended
seer •
i:rise surface it would be better for the pesos and
a the essatry. Hs regretted that there had been
any shame in the number of the ex-officio guardians, which
would be very unpalatable in his part of the country.
Mr. FITZGERALD said that in his part of the country
the ratio— g by electoral divisions was preferred to that of
unions. He thought the course taken by the noble lord
was • wile one, and he hoped he would be firm in con-
is It. He believed the increasing the number of
se-oAclo guardians would be anything but popular inlreland.
In answer to a question from Mr. gnaw,
-Lord S. RUSSELL said he thought be had stated that
a bill Me the suppression of vagrancy and mendicancy in

Ireland would be Introduced, hut he had not made up his
mind as to the time when it would be brought in.
The bill was then committed pro forma, the report re-
ceived, and it was ordered to be recommitted on Monday
next.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELANDI BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL postponed the committal of this bill,
instead of allowing it to pass through committee proforma.
Mr. SMITE' O'BRIEN ( who was very imperfectly
heard) said that the state of things in Ireland was most dises-
teem.; and although he was prepared to support outdoor
relief under the Poor-law, be did not think that it Poor-law
was calculated to increase the productions of the country.
They were spending large sums of money. on useless
works; they had refused the proposition of the
noble lord (0. Bentinek) which would have put
in motion the industry of the country, and aothtng
had been done during the xenon, except the bill.
Only 1,500,000 f. had been provided for drainage, and this
wee the whole amount of the provision which was made for
supplying the people with work when they were taken off
the roads, and nether the Waste Lands nor Tenants' COM-
poetic.° Bills had been brought in.
Lord J. RII,BIILL hardly knew if it was necessary to
give any answer to the hon. gentleman. He should have '
thought that, is considering these mi &sures, which were
founded oe the views of the moat enlightened friends of
Ireland, and were in consonance with the published opinions
of the bon. gentlenan, it was better to go through them
clause by clause, and them tomcod the bills to the other house of
parliament than to throw five or six hills on the table at
once. He thought that they had taken the best practical
course, and that these two measures were the most im- ,
portant. The hon. gentleman thought that a poor law
would not make the country rich, but it was con-
lettered that a good poor law had that tendency.
He had received a letter from a proprietor in Ireland on
the subject of the rating by electoral disisions, and it con-
tained an opinion that the farmers would be more likely to
employ labourers if they found that they were charged with
their support when they were sent to the workhouse. (Hear,
hear.) As to the sums of money which were being expended,'
the hon. gentleman did act seem to Kin sufficient value to I
the fact, that the spending of large sums of money enabled
many people to earn something to keep them alive. The
most important question was, not whether the works were
pr. ductive, but whether they enabled • number of persons
from di.taot parts of the country to earn something. The
hon. gentleman seemed to think that the people should not
be employed on public works unless they were productive;
but he (Lord J. Russell) hoped that many of the roads on
which they were employed would be found useful in teeth-
tatiag internal communication. Still it was most important
that advances of money should be made whew wages could not
be procured for productive labour for so large a population.
The Waste Lands Bill would be introduced, but he was un-
able to say at what time. As to the other bill mentioned by
the hon. gentleman, it was, no doubt, a measure of the ut-
meet importance, but it was also one of the utmost difficulty.
The Lord Chancellor had gone through all the clauses, and
had made up hie mind as to their beneficial effect ; but he
stated that there was • difference between the practice of the I
Court of Chancery in Ireland, and the practice in that court
in England, end nothing more could be done until the
opinion of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was obtainedas to
the manner in which it would work. Was it not, therefore,
better that it should be delayed for a fortnight, until
it was ascertained that the bill had no fault in its drawing,
which would prevent its working. He could assure the hon.
Eaathat there was no inattention to this subject on
eatt
ihttetar consideringr the
g°venreat ehugentilltieffieeTwYu?::
they were plated, some little indulgence and forbearance
should be shown towards them. (Hear hear.)
Mr. HUME said that no one could deny the government
credit for the manner in which they were acting; but he
disowned from the proposition of the noble lord, that work
must be provided in order to give the people wages. He
should agree to that if the system was not calculated to in-
crease the existing evils. Every shillbl which was given to
unproductive works drew the pro • from exercising
thew industry on the soil. Why 'd not the govern-
meet bring in a bill to relieve the property of the
landlords from their incembrances, so that they might give
wages foe cultivating the land. In the last ten days, not-
withstanding the present state of things, land had been scld
in Carrick at twenty-seven years purchase, and the pur-
chasers were about to apply their capital to its improvement.
He had a report from an individual in Sligo, which stated
the most scandalous abuses in the administration of the money
advanced there. He thought there should be no delay in
bringing in the bill. In Lord Devon's report it was stated that
there were an immense numberof estates in Chancery, which
could not be sold. Let that be done with the prop rty in
Ireland which was done with land for railways in this
country; let it be taken on valuation, and the money paid
into court, sod let the claimants dispute about the money
and not the land. Why should not persons whose property
was encumlwred be allowed to sell it ? He thought that the
noble lord was going on spending money which was doing
no good ; arid unless a stop was put to the public works, and
theland relieved from its incumbrances, there was no hope
for the regeneration of Ireland.
Lord G. BENTINCE did not quite concur in the san-
guine view token by his noble friend as to the improvement
of the roads in Ireland. He had last Saturday received • re-
port of a speech which, by a strange coincidence, was spoken
in Ireland on the lame day on which a speech was delivered
in that house, in which mention was made of Mr. Bianconi.
It was admitted on all hands that no one was so good a
judge of the improvementsof roads in Ireland as Mr. Bien-
cont. This was what was said by that gentleman in his
speech : " If the English parliament knew this country,
they would not have given a million of money to spoil and
render impassable the highways instead of turning it into
• reproductive chaenel ; but he thought that it was appre-
hended that if the prosperity of Ireland was increased, it
would lead to her independence. He had discontinued nine
or ten vehicles, whist) employed 100 or 200 horse*, because
the British Parliament had shown such • knowledge of the
I country, that instead of granting money for railways, they
had given it to spoil the roads, which they already had.
His noble friend could not, therefore, he thought, congratu-
late himself that the money spent on the roads would tend
to their improvement.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not express any sanguine
expectation so to the improvement of the roads, but that the
object was to feed the people.
Sr J. GRAHAM differed from the position laid down by
the noble lord, that it was unimportant, provided that
money was granted for the den.' in Ireland, whether it
was applied to productive or unproductive works. He (Sir
J. Graham) thought It was of great importance to
future national prosperity, that capital so expended should
be reproductive, and the wealth of Ireland should be
increased. He rose principally to offer a suggestion to the
noble lord. It would be unfair and unjust, considering the
pressure under which the government laboured, and the dif-
Beatties with which they had to contend, to complain of de-
lay in bringing firward measures to meet those difficulties.
But; he was of opinion, that of all the ptrmsaent measures '
proposed, none was of more importance, or more calculated
for the future relief of Ireland, than the bill which would give
facilities to tenants for life to relieve themselves front incum-
brances on their property by the sale of • portion of it.
The importance of that measure could not be overstated,
and he, therefore, rejoiced to hear that the Lord Chancellors
of England said Ireland were now directing their earnest
attention to it. Judging from the experience of last session
he must say that there was reason to apprehend that if the
matter was left in the hands of lawyers no such relief as
that which such • measure would effect would be obtained
It cannot have been forgotten that last year the house almost
unanimously sent up a measure to the other house by one
clause of which tenants for life would have been en-
abled to borrow money on their estates, due precaution being
taken that the inheritance was not damnified. That clause '
met with the general concurrence of the house, but in the I
other house of parliament, Lords Cottenham, Langdale, I
Campbell, and Lyndhurst, all made common cause, and by
common consent thole four great law authorities conjoined.
and forced the rejection of that clause. This house was
forced to yield, and the bill pared in that mutilated condi.
lice. The suggestion he had to offer to her Majesty's go-
vernment was that while the house was employed in dis-
cussing the Poor-law Bill for Ireland and the measure
enabling tenants for life to incur debts to improve their
estates, the other house might with the utmost possible ad-
vantage
be employed in considering a measure on the sub-I
ject to which he adverted, upon which the great law autho-
titles could concur, and which he (Sir James
Graham) thought ought not longer to be delayed
He did not wish unduly to hurry the govern-
ment,
because he thought they had shown the greatest I
diligence under circumstances of unequalled pressure and
difficulty, but thought the suggestion worthy their conside-
ration. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he participated in the regret
expressed by the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) that it
had not yet been possible for the government to lay before
parliament the measure to which he referred; but he (Mr.
Labonchere) trusted that no long time would elapse before
the other house would be occupied with its consideration.
(Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet seemed to suppose
that the noble lord at the head of the government had said
that it was matter of indifference—comparative indifference

—to Ireland whether the money advancedr was spent in pro-
ductive or unproductive works in that country. His (Mr.
Laboachere's) noble friend gave expression to no such senti-
ment. His noble friend said, it must always be borne in
mind in considering this question, that the primary object in
the protein condition of Ireland was to save human life and
diminish human suffering. Bo far as that could be combined
with useful employment it was certainly desirable, but the
main object could not be loot sight of. (Hest, hear.) He
was sure the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) would not
have given his sanction to a proposal that the government
should undertake the employment of the population in the
ordinary cultivation of the soil. (Hes', hear.) The ques-
tion had been what reproductive works could be so scattered
over the country as to bring employmeat home to
every class of Irishmen, and there would have been great
deader in employing them in the ordinary cultivation of the
toil. If the government had undertaken that duty, heavy 1141
herealeen se their teak had been, it would have been es nothing
compared with such a responsibility. The government had,
theredre, thought it right to give aid, so long as that aid
could furnish the means of rubmatenee, through the medium
of employment on public works, rather than to have re-
course to a system of what might properly be called repro-
ductive works. He thought it right to say these few words
in answer to that which seemed to be a censure passed by
the right bon, baronet on the government.
Biro. NORREYB said the measure alluded to by the
right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) would not oaly be
wholly insufficient, but productive of still greater difficul-
ties. Every effort ought to be made to develop the industry
of Ireland ; and he was of opinion that it would be wall to
establish a board of arbitration to settle the terms upon
which rights of property were to be conceded.
Mr. SATI,LIE said it was impossible the landlords of Ire-
land could do justice to their tenants so long as their tastes
were encumbered with liabilities and he should readily

'newt to any measure whist. would enable ibem to sell a.
portion of their wean to pay off imeembrances, awl thereby
'into them to extend benefits to their teasists.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL remarked that the employment of
the people in the construction of roads had not oily been
the means of saving human life, but, in many instances, the
works executed will, in the end, be reproductive. In
many parts of the youth and west of Ireland the new roads
bed given scone to the new markets, and had greatly im-
proved the condition of the poorer dawn ; and in the cul-
Vested districts near Dublin, including Kingstown, Dalkey,
and Monkstown, the relief committee, of which he was the
chairman, had no sort of reproductive work os which to
employ the population except upon the roads. He
joined in the wish that the measure for the
reclamation of waste lands and the other measures to which
reference had been made would be hurried forward by the
government.
Mr. SHAW thought it unreasonable to press the govern-
ment in the emergencies by which they were surrounded,
but still he was of opinion that no time ought to be lost in
bringing forward the Landed Property Bill and the measures
Br the reclamation of waste lands, and for getting rid of
eneumbrances on estates—measures which were necessary,
In order to develops the resources of Ireland, and to enable
the popuution to support themselves by their own labour.
Mr. P. SCROPE enquired in what shape the government
proposed to bring forward their measure on the subiect of
arterial drainage.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN mid, before the noble lord
answered that question, he begged to ask whether or not the
noble lord meant to re-open the question of poor.law rating
In Ireland, by the adoption of the hill introduced by the hon.
Member for Rochdale (Mr. 8. Crawford).
Lord J. RUSSELL replied, with respect to the Drainage
Bill, that most of the operations under It could now be per-
formed under the Drainage Act, which had already been
passed. With respect to the question last put, he (Lord J.
litus.ell) could not state what were the intentions of the
Cvne.rum7mtrufnortilßtuclottdhaelre tookdiuspetaonce. onHteh:lidbnillot of
concurthe
in all the provisioner of that bill, but still he thought there
were one or two clauses worthy of consideration. On the
etsbject of the Poor law Bill he had already this evening
minted what the government intended.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that not only did powers
milt he arterial drainage under the bill brought in by
lir regent Earl St. Germano, when Chief Secretary fee
bolord, but at the present moment those powers were la
otterstion. No less than four extensive schemes of drainage
were in progress in Ireland, the expenditure upon which
would be about 120,0001. Of this sum but a small portion
bad been contributed by the public, the residue being ad-
vanced by the landowners.
After a few words from Mr. SMITH O'Botar, the order
of the day_ was read, and the committal of the bill pom-
mel to Monday next. _ _