The Express.
London, England, 1848-02-15 00:00:00

brought into notice by that committee. (Hear.) He did
not mean to deny that the new houses of parliament had
been most expensive boildings,and that they had far exceeded
in cost the original estimates; but could any other result
have been looked for considering the shortens of time
which had been allowed for presenting the original designs,
and which had to be modified as experience and study
threw light upon the subject ? The parliament had sanc-
tioned the deviations that had been made from the original
designs and estimates, and, therefore, thereat:sensibility rested
mot with the architect, but with the hoar.' As for the von•
Illation, Mr. Barry was not to be made responsible for that
Lion of the expenditure, nor for the delay arising from it.
When Dr. Reid's arrangement was proposed for adop.
this to the new houses, the parliament agreed they
should be adopted, and accordingly he had the
centrol of that department of the works,. lithe
however, would not enter into details of whet had
occurred before be accepted hit present office, and indeed
during the period that he was not in perliament. He wow*
only state that the present condition of the finances of the
country rendered it advisable, in the opinion of the piers.
meat, not to call upon parliament to grant the whole amouat
required for the completion of the new houses in one sum,
but to extend the period of advance over four er five years,l
so a• not to press too heavily oh any one year. With respect'
to Mr. Barry, he (Lord Morpeth) must observe that the
enormous amount of labour impeeed upon him, i nel the
anxiety which he bad endured, had proved most harassing
to his mind, and it it should be found that the public cool
deuce was withdrawn from him, it could hardly he ex.
tooted that he would be able to bear up under the depres-
sion cuneequent upon such an occurrence. With respect to
the question of remuneration, Mr. Barry had always con-
tended that it was inadequate as compared with what was
the custom of his brother architects. The government, how.
ever, had expressly undertaken to pay only 25,0001., and had
never swerved from that undertaking. So that if parliament
:ignited his remuneration to that sum, Mr. Barry could net
complain. But he (Lord Morpeth) believed that Mr. Barry's
predominant feeling was to render the buildings under his
superintendence what they ought to be; and whilst he did
tint mean to deny that the original estimates had been fare x
meted, he (Lord Morpeth) oust be allowed to express his
feelings towares Mr. Barry, who had inspired him with con-
fidence and attachment., and whose consummate *Lilt would
secure him a prominent place as an ar hitect by those who
came after him, in estimating the ebancteristics of the
I men of hie own time.
Sir R. INGLIS exculpated Mr. Barry from all responsi-
bility attaching to expenditure in the new houses of parlia-
ment beyond his own immediate department. lie entreated
the noble lord to reconsider the subject of spreading the Lune
necessary for the completion of the buildings over four or
five years. If the government was prepared to complete
the design', let the necessary amount be at once asked for,
and bring the works to a conclusion, instead of delaying
their termination for so many years.
Mr. HUME concurred in the recommendation of the hon.
baronet, to demand the whole suns re; aired for the completion
of the houses at once, and to press forward this works with all
proper speed. With respect to the buildings themselves, he
must my that whatever might be thought. ot them, he should
have had no objection to the houses as a display of Mr.
Berry's taste, provided he had been at the expense; but, as
it was, the whole concern was a disgrace to the house and all
concerned in sanctioning what had been dine. lie was very
glad to see the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) in his place,
tor he was resnonsible for what had been done.
Sir R. PEEL said that when the subject was lest b. fore
I the house he had summated the appointment of a select com-
mittee, as it was a subject very difficult of elucidation by
debates in that house. lie bed thought it a very fit subject
for inquiry, to ascertain how far the original estimate had
gene, and also how much had ben absorbed by the Thames
embankment and other extra causes of expenditure. lie
:hought still that that would be the best course—reserving
of course to the house the power to decide as to the merits
of the course pursued. Ho had always thought that the
better course was to fix the remuneration of the architect at
a particular turn, "ether than to adopt the usual mode of
allowing him 5 per cent on the expenditure; and he must
say thet in his opinion government had aced erroneously in
allowing that arrangement to be altered, and Lt allowing to
be raised any exact orated expectation of increased equitable
consideration. (Hear, hear.) He did not blame the woke
tect, the Woods and Forests, or the Treasury exclusively.
(he house must take part of the blame. (Hear, hear.) It
was usual with the house to have hot and cold fits, more
eepecial'y with respect to public buildings. If the new
homes had been the result of the committee of 183's, they
would have been a fac simile of Somerset House. (A laugh.)
Mr. HUME—No, we had a plan.
Sir It. PEEL—The hoe. member for Montrose then said
that he could have a building like Somerset Ileum for
' 400,0001. But thee, economic projects hod never satiefl rl.
There was the Treasury, built about 20 years since, on • low
estimate, and now as were obeged to rebuild it at an in-
creased expense. Mr. Berry's talents had been much criti-
cism!, but he thought that that gentlemen had shown con-
ummate skill in making such a building so gre it an orna-
ment to the metropolis. ( Hear, hear.) There, again, was
the National Gallery. (Hear, hear.) In that cue the
were tied down to 46,0001., andultimately to 70,0001., and
now they were anxious to set Mr. Barry to work in pulling'
down that also. A misplaced economy had spoiled one of
the finest sites in Europe.
Mr. HUME—It was not my fault. The right hen.
oaronet suggested a brick building, when I proposed one
faced with stone.
Sir It. PEEL—The hon. member is quoting a minute
dictated by him but signed by me. (A laugh.) Did the
non, member for Montrose recollect that when it was pro-
posed to make the architrave eleven feet high, he said
people are not eleven feet high, seven will do"—(laughter)
and that he (Sir It. Peel) had reconciled him to the alti-
tude by suggesting that the higher the architrave the less
would be the expenditure of brick an 1 mortar ? (Continued
laughter.) However, all the defects of that place were
eaused by undue economy. Something had been said of the
Commission of Fine Arts. He considered that commission
had greatly promoted the object for which it had been ap-
pointed, and he was sure that if a committee were appointed
ate members would willingly give every information in their
power, and show satisfactorily. that they were not responsible
tor any extra expense that might have been incurred. He
thought it would be found that the extra expenses had been
incurred under peculiar circumstances. Much depended on
the cite, end for that Mr. Barry was not respon,ibie. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member fur Manirese bad, it wee true,
recommended a site near Marlborough House, but the ma.
jority of the House of Commons preferred preserving the
site of the old palace of Westminster. After a warm cute-
Mum on Mr. Barry, the right hon. baronet proceeded to say
that he believed all the increased items could be clearly ac-
counted for, but still he recommended inquiry as • precau-
tion for the future. There wee one point which he wished
to urge upon the house, and that was, that if they were sa-
tisfied, he would not say with the original but with the
present design, he very much doubted the propriety of ex-
tending the expenditure over a number of year*. If an in.
creased expenditure and the simultaneous employment of a
greater number of men would complete the budding in two
year., he trusted the work would not be delayed for seven
years from any unwillingness on the part of the house to
vote the whole money at ouce. He was quite sure that the
question could not be properly discussed by the house until
it had be en thoroughly examined by a committee.
Mr. MILNES regretted that the works of art in the
House of leirds were so little appreciated by the public. He
hated that want of success to a fundamental error which had
been committed by the commission of fine arts. lie believed
that that body had been informed by the first muter of deco
relive art in Europe (Cornelius) that if they nought to make
one apartment a gallery of frescoes, the individual excellence
af each, however great, would be destroyed by the general
effect. He hoped that warning would he taken by the corn-
, mission, and that the error would be repaired in the re-
' mainde r of the building.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that the hon, member for
Montrose had accused Mr. Barry of exceeding his estimate.
Mr. HUME—The lords' report says so.
Toe Earl of LINCOLN—The hon. member quoted the
lords report. He (the Earl of Lincoln) had not seen the
report, but this he knew, that concurrently with the lards'
committee, a oommittce rat that house had sat, of which he
lied been chairman; they went carefully through the
accounts., and the result was that Mr. Barry was entirely
exonerated, it being fully proved that all extra expenses had
been incurred under the sanction of committees of that
house. He (the Earl of Lincelo) was prepared to say
that if a committee were now appointed the result
would be, no blame to the architect or to the suc-
cessive boards, but to that house and its com-
mittees. He could speak for four years, during which all
proposed alterations were invariably submitted to the house
or a committee, and the result was generally en increase
rather than r diminution of the expenditure. He wool I not
go into the details of expenditure, as that was more pro-
perly matter for the committee • but with respect to another
subject to which allusion had heen made, namely, tee con-
duct of Lord Bsssborouth when in office, he denied that
Lord Bessborough had exercised nay more control than
other commissioners. During his (Lord Lincoln's) term of
office every proper control had been exercised, but commis-
sioners of Woods and Forests were not to go beyond their
coestitutional bounds. The warming and ventilation (so
heavy an item) were first proposed under Lord Berm
borough's auspices ; and the first thing done by the new
government, in 1841, was on hie (Lord B. recom-
mendation, to appoint • committee to inquire in-
to both eubjects. That committee recommended an
addition but no curtailment of expenditure. (Hear, hear.)
It had been said that, on an original estimate of 700,0001.,
an expense of 1,400,0001. had been incurred. He was pre-
parcd to say tkat that statement was entirely erroneethe As
estimate was before the house for 1,401,0001., but that was
not the amount already expended. All the expenditure to
supplementary works and all, amounted to poly
833,0001. ; but of this 378,0001. was for works which had
never been mentioned in the original estimate. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord opposite (elorpeth) stated the whole sum
already expended at 808,0001., and, assuming that to be
correct, it would leave the whole amount expended on works
mentioned in the estimate 430,0001. He was anxious that,
on this point, no misrepresentations should go forth to the
public. (Hear, hear.) According to his account, Mr. Bury
had, of his original estimate, 276,0001. still remaining. The
fact was, that all the increaied•expenaes for warming, ven-
tilating, &0., had originated 'with the house, and had led to
expensive alterations en the architect's estimate. He hoped
that, for the future, can would be to keep the architect
and ventilators distinct, as he believed that hitherto much delay
had occurred from their functions not being properly defined.
The amount of remuneration to Mr. Barry of 26,000/. was
consented to by him under protest, and was only 3 per cent
on the original estimate, instead of 5 per cent., which
archaic s usually received ; and by a treasury minute Ime
as excluded from receiving any greater amount of ?emulate
lotion, should the expenditure exceed the original estimate.
Considering also that Mr. Barry was unable to undertake,
no doubt, smeller and less important, but more profitable,
works (or private individuals, it was evident that the govern-