The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

il. b

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 853.

(QCOTLAWII)BILL.—Bf 141 r. DUNLOP,
lento Hot pot: rhitrelt penbytory a P sisley, in Goon of.
Bothety Rains AND Eurasian:a BILL.—By Lord.
MOTUAM, from 'magistrates of Mist Riding of York, in
orisons onside, wrinkled, against. .
Critymnsurigo (Scortakm) • BILL.—By Sir A. CAMP.
BELL, from the prnhytesy of kintyre, against.'
CNC RCM RAT!*.—Dy Mr. II KY WOUD, from the halo-
bitants of Tyddesley, for the abolition of.
MonToonstiosninn DOKul;Olts.—By Mr. COBDEN,
from elector. of the Montgomeryshire boroughs, complain-
ing of coercion at the last election.
LAW or SETTLIOIVIT.—By Sir DE L. EVANS, from
the Guardiass of the Poor of the parish of St. Martin's, for
abolition of.

OCEAN PI NT Poirrison. —By Mr. HEY WOOD, from
the inhabitants of Bentley, for. •
MIRCEANT SHIPS. —By Captain SCOBELL, from
muter mariners, mitts, and seamen of the port of Hartle-
pool, against manning our mercliantships with foreigners,
and thereby displacing English mutes and seamen.
TAUT ox KNOWLEDOI.—By Mr. FERGUSON, from
1,500 inhabitants of the city of Carlisle, fur the abolition of.
SELLING INTOEICATIAO DittNILA UN SUNDAY.—By Mr.
L. HEY WORTH (2), one from Leighton Buzaanl, and ono
from Msryport, against.
BOROUGH OF BARNSTAPLE.

Mr. WORTLEY presented a petition from John Eidson
Davy, denying that it was true, as stated in the report of
the committee, that be had bribed a person named John
Ireland, and praying to be heard at the table of the house
in his defence. The right hon. gentleman said he should
not found any motion on the petition.
KNARESBOROUGII ELECTION PETITION.
The members appointed to hear and detetatine this poll-
' tion were sworn.

The Spathe*Lela' tbine left the chair,
The let elausil was agreed to.
On teas 2nd elites*,
Sir F. KELLY conveyed to the committee an e.therate
assurance of the diffidence he felt in approaching a einsmi„i
scheme of this vast magnittels—a scheme that iaro,d,i
once effect no lees a sow then 100,1100,00 c, cad that sea,
hoped, and he believed he might say inters" sad, to apply to
no less • sum than 500,000.0001, it not to ',As entire capital
of the National Debt. To the cies: and enlightened mind
of the right hon. gentletean the Chan ...viler of the Exche-
quer, which revelled and rejoiced in the complexities and
difficulties of his plea, the task mi•At be easy if not pleas-
ing, but to one like himself of \ ery common and ordinary
understanding it wail no trifling undirtaking to call the at-
tention of the house to the exact meets of a scheme which
an much abounded in perplexities and speculation, in con-
tingencies and uncertainties. (Hear, hear.) He would,
however, endeavour to put the house in possession of what
the bill really was, and what were really the means by
which the rightton. gentleman sought to give effect to
certain objects; objects, no doubt, excellent and tweeter
tenable in themselves, and objects of the highest import-
ance to the country, but objects which he thought he should
be able to show were wholly unattainable by the bill.
j (Hear, hear.) The measure, in the first place, provided
j fee the paying off of certain South Sea and other minor
' stocks, amounting altogether in value to about ten millions
sterling. To that he could have no objection ; for it was
, no doubt expedient that these minor stocks should bo
I merged into the larger ones: that object might also have
been attained with the greatest facility. They might either
have given cotes to the holders and at once paid them off,
raising the necessary funds in any way the government
might think best, or they might have converted them into en
equal amount of 3 per Cent. Console, or 3 per Cent. Reduced.
But the right hon. gentlesson had evidently conceived
that the time had arrived when he might him at the accom-
plishment of certain great and important objects, in which
the country was deeply interested, and which if they had
ever occurred to minds of other ministers, had never been
submitted by them in any distinct and tangible form to the
house. Those objects were three is number. The first
appeared to involve a large and substantial reduction of the
capital of the public debt; and the second seemed to aim at
a no len dealt able end, namely, the creation of a permanent
stock of n per cent. The third was a miner, but by
no means unimportant matter, namely the creation and issue,
for the benefit of the commercial body and' the commu-
nity in general, of Terme., or Exchequer bonds transfer-
able from hand to band. If any one of these
three great objects could be accomplirbed on rea
minable terms, or even if the first step towards
their realisation could be taken consistently with good
faith towards the national creditor on the one hand
and without increasing the national debt en the other, any
scheme calculated to advance those ends would hays mot
with his sincere and cordial support. But after a careful
study of the bill he bad come to the strong and conscienti-
ous conviction that with all its intricacies and combinations
it was as a whole inconsistent and impracticable; and that
even if it could be carried out it would be mischievous in
its effects ; because • pert of the scheme would make •
large and substantial addition to the national debt, an ad-
dition moreover that would be multiplied twenty or fifty-
fold if applied to the whole debt. He should, therefore,
feel compelled to oppose the measure unless the right hon.
gentleman was prepared te strike out what he would call
alternative No. 2, which involved the increase of the
national debt, and the giving of • guarantee for
the long period of forty years at 21. 15s. per cent. (Hear.)
He would now proceed to describe the three alternatives
contained in the bill. The right hon. gentleman had stated
that they were exact equivalents, so that the holders of
stock who should choose any one of them would find him-
self in precisely the same position as if he had chosen either
of the others, although they were contrived to suit the con-
e venience of different holders. Now hie (Sir F. Kelly's)
first great objection to the measure was they. were nut equi-
valents ; but, on the contrary, if the experiment were car-
ried into practice, the difference between one and the other,
and especially between the second and third, would be
found to be so great that people would wonder how any
minister could for one moment have thought they were
alike. (Hear, hear.) Another objection was that
the right honourable gentleman, instead of proceeding
as every other minister in such circumstances had done,
and ought to do, namely, to have invited information from
the public as to what ought to be the real terms of the bar-
gain, had taken upon himself the leek of settling the mat-
ter, as if he possessed by intuition the faculty of obtaining
information on the difficult points raised. Hu first propo-
sition was this:—The owner of • hundred pounds in the
Sonth Sea Annuities might accept a Those-and-a-Half per
Cent. stock, of which the capital should be 321. 104., that
rats of interest to be guaranteed for 40 years. The real
interest would therefore be 21. 17e. od. Now if this pro-
poeitien had been made by itself alone, :the quesion
whether the public would have been likely to take this
stock, would have been one of difficulty to the most sa-
gacious and experienced amongst them. Of course, if the
three propositions should be one and all so disadvantageous
to the public creditor that they should refuse to take them,
then the bill would be a dead letter. The 10,000,0001. re-
quired to pay off the holders of the minor stocks would have
to be raised in some other way, and there would be an end
of the matter. But they must assume that the right hon.
gentleman was right in supposing that some one of his
three propositions would be accepted by the public
generally; and it was upon that assumption that they must
look at the present price of the stocks, which showed money
Ito be worth 3 per cent. and no more. They must look at
the state of the country with regard te the precious metals,
and at the state of Europe and the world with
regard to political events, as all elements to
be considered in calculates' of this kind. (Hear, hear.)
The second alternative was, that for the same sum of 1001.
the holder should receive 21. 16s. per annum, guaranteed
for 40 years, upon a capital of 1101. The third was that he
should receive 21. 15e. for • period, which was left to be in-
serted in the bond, but running from one to ten years ; and
then for the remaining 30 years he should be guaranteed •
dividend of 21. 101. upon the capital of 1001. 'Mediae the
bill should peas as it stsod, or in an altered form, the wow
try was deeply indebted to the right hon. gentleman for
proposing a measure which would establish the thiasiple of
effmeing a great and permanent reduction of the national
debt. (Hear, hear.) Could the bargain offered at 21. 17s. 9d.
be accepted, it would effect a great national benefit ; and
were it extended to the whole of the Three per Cents.
amounting to 610 millions, it would effect a reduction ei
about 90 millions in the amount of the national debt. Were
this done, no measure of any finance minister in any coax•
try would approach this in the magnitude of the operation
and the national benefit resulting therefrom. It would
effect an I saving of 700,0001. or 800,0001., as well ea
• reduction of neatly 90 millions in the capital of the me
tional debt. He rejoiced that they had the high authority
of the right hen. gentleman for thinking that this bergs&
waa likely to be aceepted to • great extant. (Hear.) Paseo,
to Nos. 2 and 3, he was compelled to make • very
different remark on those alternatives. The conversion
proposed by No. 2 would at once add four millions to the
capital of the national debt—a great and Insuperable ob-
jection if it stood alone. (Hear, hear.) Netbing but a
war or some imminent peril or necessity could induce the
country to consent to such a course. He contended that
I this would be a perfectly useless and unnecessary sacrifice.
The bargain was also ohjeetionable, because, as comparing
I No. 2 with No. 3, it must be evident the; the dividend
payable under the former was grossly exethave. If it were
serried out to the whole amount of the three per cents, it
the& involve an increase in the debt of fifty millions. The
seduction of the interest sought might be obtained
dimmer terms, and without any increase at all et the
eeriest of the debt. lie called on the government
to try the experiment of No. 8 before they sr
sorted to the alternative of No. 2. This wield
secure to the mercantile community the advent,*
of using as many odthose trends, bonds as they required: it
would lay the foendation of • Twovait-a-Half per cent
stook, which it was said would be a great national benefit :
It would avoid =increase of the national debt: it would
do no injury to the stockholder, because it would be the
Mae to him whether he took 1001. or these bonds, and at
the same time they would be making an experiment the
remelt of which would be a guide to them if they desired to
advance further. (Hear, hear.) His proposition, there-
fore, was to leave out the alternative et Ne. 2.
Oa Sir Fitzroy Kelly'. motion being put,

T►• CHANbiLLOk ofth• EXCII9UICA said h• In

very sorry on every ground, ant especial, after the kaad
manner in which he referred to him and the general terms
of the hill, that the objeetiins of his learned friend ap-
pared to he of so broad and sweeping a character. He con-
fessed he was at a loss to understand to what points those
objections went. It appeared at one time as if he objected
to say limit being placed on the creation of the 21 per cent
dock ; sad at soothe, time he said it was impracticable,
inconsistent, and unjust. But he was limed to add that
the objection of the hon. and learned gentleman, it he could
define it to the house or even to his own mind, did go
to the root of the bid. His remarks were, however, dic-
tated by commercial and politioo-ecoaomical views which
were wholly at variance with his (the Chancellor
of tt • Exchequer's). The honourable and learned
gentleman thought it fair to IMMO and to act
upon it as a practical principle, that they were
going to have a great revolution 111 the vales of money, sad
he referred to the stets of things forty years ago, when the
interest of money was 6 per nat., whereas it was now but
3 per cent. He said it was a moderate usamptios to ery
that it would deseend to I} per cent. anti 1 per cent., as if
this had been a continuous decline, which had been going on
from time immemorial. Whj did net the learned gentle-
man go back farther, as he went boom at all ? If he did, he
weld° find that more than 100 years ago it was less than 3
per cent., and that the Three per Cent. Ptak
stood at 106 and 107 in the stock market.
That was • most vital fact in considering the question. If
they had got in a delightfully descending groove of this
kind, he agreed with the learned gentleman that this bill
would be a very unwise one, cad he doubted that they
ought to tie up their hands even from year to year. He
was delighted to end that the learned gentleman spoke so
highly of the growing wealth sod prosperity of the coun-
try, because it was bats few mouths ago—he spoke not as
a matter of speculation, but as a matter of certainty which
only a prescience issuing from a melancholy ima-
gination could d-clare--that their present commercial
legislation had not merely brought the country to the
rand, but that it had actually reached the goal of rain.
(Hear, hear.) The I d gentleman said that the value
of money would so decrease, that it would be cheating
themselves to give a guarantee of 40 years. This was
not the view on which the construction of the measure
had been based. The menace en posed on the principle '
that it was not likely to see this great change in the
value of money, but Oat there was such • ten-
dency towards a diminution of money, that the go.
vernment ought to avail themselves of it. (Hear.)
The learned gentleman asked the house to strike out one of
the alternatives from the bill; but it would be most un-

flfrtunate for him and for parliament to be obliged V. go
inte the money market with • maimed letrument In his
hand. bear) This was a must import .at matter
ler the consideration of the committee. If they did not ap-
prove the bill let them reject it, but if they approved of it '
let them nut mar its effects he weukening its force.
(User, hear.) The hon. and learned tteutletuan obj cted
to the principle of the bill. 110 slid that an
interest cf 21. 15s. was unreasonable and extraeagent ;
that it was highly objectionable to increase the capital of the
debt, and that the object was to extend the bill bereofter to
the whole 600,000,0001. of the Three per Cents. But the
learned gentleman entirely misconceived his p.nition. That
was not the object of the bill ; the object in view was en-
tirely different from that. The object was to establish a
Tao-and-a-Half per Cent. stock, and a hen that stock was
established, to improve the terms as fast as it could be
done. (Hear.) The bon. and learned gentleman said that
the three nroposals of option to be offered were not equi-
valents. It was quite true they were not equivalents in an
&Atheistical sense ; but there were other things to be consi-
dered. The question of confidence and security entered
into price ; but who could estimate their Talus in figures ?
(Hear.) Who could put into figures the value of a2O or
a4O years' g es ? (Hear, hear.) Woo could put
into figures the value of transfers which would
pass from band to band, without change or limita-
tion of place, with the power of deposit ? (Hear, bear.)
He was not so presumptuous as to say that these three alter-
natives were equivalents, even in his own sense of the word,
or that in that sense they did not require further adjustment
—hut be maintained that in order to get at their money
value they must not proceed entirely upon figures antece-
dent to esperienee. The hon. and learned gentleman esti-
mated that there was a difference of W. money value in
favour of the 21 per Cent. Stock as compared with the 3)
per Cent. Stock. Now, there were arithmetical authori-
ties called actuaries. He had 'skeet one of these gentlemen
what was the value, with the funds at their present price,
of 1101. New 2} per Cent. Stock irredeemable fur 41
years; and the answer was 911. 13e. 4d. He had
likewise asked him the value of 1001. 3} per
Cents. under the same conditions ; and the answer was
961.55. Thus the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. stock ap-
peared at that moment to be worth 41. Ile. /id. more in
hard money than the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. stock.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman said if they
could get out 20,000,0001. in Exchequer Bonds, they ought
not to be satisfied with that amount, but should immortolise
themselves by issuing 100,000,0001., or even 500,000,0001.
That was a proposition which the hon. and learned gentle-
man thought he baa clearly demonstrated. (Laughter.)
Sir F. KELLY said his argument was that Exchequer
Bonds should be issued as long as they could get anybody to
take them.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—But the
hon. and learned gentleman asked wile they should not
convert 600,000,0001. of the debt into Exchequer Bands ;
and did not admit that there would be the *lightest diet'
culty in doing so. (Hear, bear.) There neigh; be a demand
for an article up to a certain point, at a given price, and
then the demand might cease ; and what they had to do
was to find out that point by experience. (Hear, hear.) To
find out bow far they could go was the very thing which he
aimed at. It would be of no use to flaod the market. The
hon. and learned gentleman said it was a perfect fallacy to
suppose that there could be any difference, between the
value of an annuity of 2!. 10s. registered stock, and the
value of an Exchequer bond bearing 21. 10i. interest. Now,
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not hesitate to as-
sert, on the authority of those wan had had abundant cape
rience of such matters,-that it was rational to suppose that
a very considerable value would attach to the Exchequer
Bonds—a value arising from the fret that they would be
transferable without charge, that they would be dealt in all
over the country, that they would be a convenient form of
Eaglish securities for foreigners to hold abroad, and that
the interest upon them would be paid in different places.
With such advantages in their favour, it was natural that
Exchequer Bonds should be issued at a lower rate of inte-
rest than other stocks. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and
learned gentleman complained that the govern,
sent had not fixed the exact terms on which
the bonds were to be issued. Now, ha must say,
that that did not appear to him desirable ; and for this rea
son, that it was the duty of the government to issue them on
the best terms that they could for the public. (Hear, hear.)
Subject, ea they were, to the changes even of the electric
telegraph, it was impossible to form a rational computation
as to the future; and if be had endeavoured a month ago
to write in letters of iron the terms on which these bonds
should be issued, either he would have risked the profit
which the public might make by the transaction, or he
would have exposed the government and parliament to the
worse evil of an abortive proposition. (Hear, bear.) The
hon. and learned gentlemen said—and he now came to the
most serious question involved in the discussion—that al-
though it was an object of great importance, to create
• Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, it was still
more important not to increase the capital of the debt.
Now, although he was not sanguine as is wholesale and
permanent reductions in the value of money, yet he would
go this length with the hon. and learned gentleman—that
it was most desirable that they should introduce into the
system of the debt a stock bearing a rate of interest which in
case the value of money should be subject to favourable
alteration, would form a basis for extensive reductions.
Therein consisted the importance of a Two-and-a-Half
per Cent. stook. (Hear, hear.) lie begged the committee
to observe, however, that they could not make sure of
creating such a stock by means of Exchequer Bonds ;
and if he had been of a contrary opinion, he should
never have proposed the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. stock
under consideration. If they could get out these
bondr, redeemable at the option of the state, at the
expiration of 41 years, but irredeemable at the option of the
holder, the experiment would have succeeded. They
would then have the basis of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent
Stuck ; they would have placed themselves on ground from
which they would be able to effect more extensive
operations. But it was impossible for soy man at that mo-
ment to say whether they could do this or not. He did not
disregard the objection to any increase of the national debt;
on the contrary, it had always been to him a matter of deep
regret that the house bad manifested so much indifference
on that subject. (Hear, hear) He proposed to increase the
debt to • very limited amount, because he thought it worth
their while to pay that price fur the attainment of a great
object of national policy. (Hear, hear.) Would the House
of Commas pledge itself to the principle, that in no case
hereafter should there be an increase in the nominal
amount of the debt? If the house were ready to adhere
to that principle with firmness, then he must say, that
notwithstanding the temporary inconvenience which would
he entailed, it would have adopted a wise and patriotic
resolution ; and he would be most loth to stand in the way
of such an object. But he really must enlighten his
hon. and learned friend with regard to this ques-
tion of increasing the capital of the debt. His boo.
and learned friend said, not only was it important that the
capital of the debt should not be increased, but it was a
great constitutional principle not to increase the capital of
the debt by borrowing at a rate of interest lower thaw the
'current rate of interest in the market. Where did his hon.
and learned friend find this (treat constitutional principle ?
(Hear, hear.). Ho was astonished at the facility with which
many hon. members, to suit their own purpose, con-
verted an individual opinion into a groat constitutional prin-
ciple. (Hear, hear.) Let it be well understood that this
t• great constitutional principle" was, alter all, • pure no-
velty. (Hear.) He held in his hand • list of operations
since the peace, by which the capital of the debt had been
repeatedly increased. In April, 1826, they funded
8,000,0001. of Exchequer Bills in Four per Cutts., adding
660,0001. to the capital of the debt. In 1829 they funded
3,00c0001. of Exchequer Bills, adding 46,0001. to the capi-
tal of the debt. On the 10th of August, 1839, they funded
4,900,0001. of Exchequer Bills, adding 490,0001.30 the capi-
tal of the debt. In September, 1841 thby funded
6,000.0001. of Exchequer Bills, adding 606,0001. to the capi-
tal of the debt. In 1822 3 they purchased the Navy Five
per Cents., the amount converted being 150,000,0001.,
and thereby added to the debt 7,600,0001. ; and on
another occasion, in order to effect • small saving of
interest upon 1,013,0001., they made an addition of 388,0001
There had, however, been later operations than those which
he bad mentioned. In 1817, when the hon. and learned
gentleman was ia that house—(hear, hear)-8,000,000/.
WAS borrowed, at the rate of 911. per 1001., adding 720,0001.
to the capital of the debt; and in 1848 the borrowing of
2,000,0001. offered at the same rate, made a further addition
of 140,0001. Thus there bad been 10,500,0001. added ia the
gross ; and this, not to secure any great object
of national policy, bat simply to obtain a reduction
of interest. NOW, with regard to the application of
all this to the proposition before the committee, he confessed
that he thought the mein object, namely the creation of a
two-and-a-half per cent. stock, could not be attained except
el, Wein . it at a premium. If the house had authorised
ham to go into the market and sell 1081. Two-andea-Helf
per Cent. Stark for what it would bring, be believed the
effect would have been to increase the capital of the debt a
great deal more than it would be increased by the adop•
tion of his own proposition (hear, hear) ; to which
he must add that if they wished to create a
Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, they must be prepared to
pay an equivalent price for it. Several suggestions fur
amending the plan had been sent to him, but there was not
one to which he could accede. One suggestion was that he
should give the fuedholder the option of having 1001. con-
, verted into 601. of the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock
and 50/. of the Two-and-a-Half; by which means it was
' said the capital of the debt would only be slightly increased.
But would the operation have succeeded? lie was afraid
not. He might Imre observe that inasmuch as the
S •uth Sea and minor stocks would be convert-
ible into Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, as well
. as the other kinds of stock, if it were • question of amount
he should have no objection to make the amount 20,000,0001.
' instead of 30,000,0001. ; though it should he added, that if
tne holders of the minor stocks came in, the amount would
still be 30,003,0001. The main question, however, for the
determination of the committee was, whether for any con-
sideration hey would consent to an augmentation, in any
degree, of what was termed the capital of the debt—the
price, that was, at which the debt could be redeemed. He
thought they must make their choice between abandoning
the hies of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock altogether,
and the adoption of a proposition which he would now
state, namely, that they should devote to the purpose of
reducing the debt the gunnel saving which they would make
by the establishment of a Two-and-e-Half per Cent. Stock.
(Hear.) By determining that the annual saving should be'.
thus disposed of, they would entirely prevent any increase
of the nominal amount of the debt; and the only objection '
which could he urged against such a course was that it
would retard fur a time—it would bo only for a time—the
enjoyment of the benefit of the annual saving. Another I
plan that had been suggested was, that instead of offering a
Two-and a-Half per Cent. stock, they should offer a stock
which for 10 years would bear 3 pi r cent., for 10 or '2O
years more n per cent., and should then become a TwO-1
and-a-Half per Ceat. stock. Now, that would prevent

them from attaining fur 30 year. the c hjeet of the creation
of a Two-and-a-11.11f per Cent. stork. What he suggested
wee, that the annual hawing of .5., on every pxd. Consols
should be paid to the Commissioners of the N.etioual Debt,
and be applicable to the cancelling of portions of the debt
from time to time. Under such a plan the addition ti the
capital of the debt, ns it would stand on piper, would be
3,600,0001. ; the saving in the annual charge would be
67,5001. The annual application of 87,5011. to the purchase
of Consols for 41 years, supposing the Three per Cent.. to
be at par, would produce thi. result. The interest on Con-
sols cancelled in the first year, weigh& be 2,6251.; in the
second year the saving would of course he the tonne ; and
the process would continue until, at the extinction of 41
yews, there would be the full saving of 67,4001, and debt
would hese been cancelled to the amount of 3,437,0001. By
adopting this mode of proceeding, the committee would un-
doubtedly meet one great objection, securine the
creation of a Two-and -a-Half per cent. stock. If, instead of
conceding to him the power of converting 30,040001,
j they limited him to 20,000,0001., of course a simi-
ler result would be secured on a smaller scale.
If any plan could be suggested which, more than that which
he had stated, could further the objects and policy they had
I in view, he snould be most happy to adopt it, but all those
which he had heard or seen were liable to one fetal objection
or another, and were either plans which nobody could act
upon, or which would not secure the Two-and-a-114f per
Cent. Stock, or would, at least, greatly postpone it. If,
therefore, the committee should agree with bun in thinking
that it was important to rstabliiili a Two-and-a-Half per Cent.
Stock, he ventured to submit this mode of seccring it imme-
diately. By it their enjoyment of the annual saving might
be postponed, but the plan would be established, and the
nominal value of the debt would not be in-
creased one farthing. If he had not succeeded in
laying the case clearly before the house, he should
feel most happy in giving any further explatmeion, but he
trusted he had submitted a plan which would curry out
the object he had in view, without incurring the objection
as to increasing the capital of the debt.
. e.—

Mr. T. BARING thought tho measure complicated and
confused, but his great objection was the necessity involved
of increasing the national debt, as he thought we ought
not to indulge in that worst of all extravagance, the 111C11144
of our liabilities and engagements. He should much regret
to see a British parliament sanctioning such a principle.
Mr. WILLIAMS concurred in the objection to increas-
ing the national debt ; but, tak ng the proposition as a
whole, he felt bound to give it Ins support. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LAING said that the subject was called complicated
and obscure, but it seemed to hint to rest on a very simple
issue, namely whether it were advisable to create a2} per
cent. stock as a barometer to test the state of public credit.
(Hear, bear.) 11 it be expedient to do so you must pay the
market price for your operation, and the only question
that remains was how you were to pay that price. The
mode propostd by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to
demonstration the most economical.
Captain LAFFAN contested the accuracy of he clm-
lation, which valued a 2} per cent. stock at 911. t 131. a 4d.,
and an 821. 10s. 31 per cent. stock at 9111. ss. 82. He
had arrived at a very different conciusion. (Hear.)
If they took it for granted that the only question in estimat-
ing the value was the annual payment, he would extend tho
priaciple further. Applying this principle and taking 1101.
21 per Cents. as being worth 911. 13s. 42, 1,100/. paying a
quarter per cent. would be worth precisely the same
amount, and 111. paying 25 per cent. would also be wotth
precisely the same amount. He found on referring to
clause 12, that whereas all the other propositions are defined
and fixed, the proposition of selling Excheqner Builds was
left entirely undefined, and they did not know whether
they authorised the Chancellor of the Exchequer to issue
them above or below par.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said he felt the great difficulty the
Chancellor of the E &chequer had in dealing with a debt of
ab .ve 500 millions, with which it was necessary to give 12
months' credit, which rendered it necessary to deal liberally
with the public creditor. He had no objection to the first
part of the scheme. He thought he might have gone fur-
ther, and that the time had staved when they might reduce
she amount of the debt, and put it in a proces• of extinction.
He believed the country would gladly make a temporary
sacrifice to gain that important übjett. With re-
gard to the second proposition, he had an insuperable
objection to any increase of the capital of the debt.
Mr. J. A. SMITH looked upon the measure as an ex-
periment, but he heartily wished it should succeed, be-
lieving that if it did succeed, it would tend very materially
to relieve the taxpayers of this country.
Mr. HLi MIL said his voice had always been raised against
borrowing money by granting a large amount id stock, in
order to effect a temporary saving in interest. Hi had no
objection to the first proposition. lie had always been of
opinion that they should extinguish the debt by terminable
annuities. Was the Chancellor of the Exchequer prepared
to carry out the second part by providing against any in-
crease of the debt by an arrangement being made that fire
shillings per cent. should be applied to redeem ?
Mr. WILKINSON thought it was quite impossible for
one of these propositions to be equal so the other. One was
a good bargain for the stockholder and had for the country,
and the other was bad for the stockholder and god for the
country. With regard to Eadhequer Bonds, he thought
their being redeemable at the will of the owner was the
only thing that would make them float.
Mr. J. B. SMITH asked if there was any objection to
placing on the table the calculation of the actuary. It
differed from that of some other actuaries.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not us
how it could differ. A table of logarithms was the same
in the hands of one as in the bands of another. What he
stated was' that there were caleulations—ameulatious he
would call them—which could not be reduced to the evi-
dence of figures; but that which was reducible they would
dud amounted to so and-so; and be read them the answer
of the actuary, but he never stated that that in his judg-
ment was the immure of the value, because of necessity the
actuary would not undertake to state b., logarithms the
amount that would he taken.

Mr. DISRAELI said, when this question was before the
house, first in the shape of resolutions, and now in the
shave of a bill, the general impression woo, that her Ma-
jesty's ministers were about to deal with the great body of
the public securities. and that the sum which would come •
under the immediate., the contingent, operation, would be a
sum amounting to about 500 millious sterling, and, no
doubt, when that impression first went abroad, it was a
very startling one. The subject was one of universal in-
terest and of vast importance, and the consequences,
even in a limited . sense of a successful operation
on such an amount of the national debt, must :
be very considerable. The popular idea was that if they
could reduce the interest ou such an amount of debt from
3 to 2} per cent. the effect of such as opt ration would by
considerable. Let the committee bear in mind what that
effect would be. They would have to pay interest for that
amount of debt instead of 15 millions, about 14 millions,
' effecting a saviug of 2} millions per annum, ono of course
the country bad associated with such an open wino the moat
beneficial effects. Well, new let them see what were the
savings that were to be effected by the propositions of the
government. The sketch which he made wee when be first
heard the proposition in the house. It had been somewhat
altered since. He took the 30,000,0001. to be courted
into 31. 10s: stock, 30,0001. into the new Exchequer Hoods, ,
and the 440,000,0001., which would be converted into capital
at the rate of 31. 10s. interest for 821. 104. stuck. Now if
the plan of the minister was complete, and he must presume
to impress on the committee that it was f the utmost kn.
portanee in the consideration of all these finanancial
projects that they must cushier them as complete
in order to test their truth, the effect would be
that on 30 millions of Exchequer bills converted into 1101.
stock at 21. 10s., or 30,000,0001. of Exchequer Bonds at
21. 154., and 440,000,0001. stock at 21. 17e. 911., the interest
would be 14,396,0001. on the 15,000,0031.: nod there would
therefore be an annual saving of something like 600,0001. a
year. If the result wore to cause a rise in the interest of
Eichequer Bills, there might be a considerable lots, bet be •
would not take that result into consideration. The plan of
the government wee, that from the commencement
there should be • guarantee of forty years, with
so possibility of making a reduction in that period.
Now, he begged the house to follow him in some notes that
he bad made on preceding operations upon the national
debt, and to contrast the amount that had been steed to the
country on these operations, with the terms upon which
the operation was effected in the project which the right
hon. gentleman had now placed before them. The com-
mittee would recollect that they were now paying for this ,
500,000,0001., 15,000,0001. a year, and that if the .
plan of the government wee adopted, and they were not ,
to attempt any further reduction for forty years,
they might save 600,0001. a year during those forty .
year,. Now look at 1717, when, be believed, the
first conversion took place under Sir Rohert Walpole.
He dealt with dividends to the amount of 1,500,0001., and
the saving that was effected was 324,0001. • year. The
saving now to be effected in dividends amounting to
15,000,0001. was 600,0004 a year. Then there was no
stipulation in the act of 1717 for guaranteeing the interest,
a most important point for consideration. If, therefore,
they contrasted the project of the right hon. gentleman
with thst of Sir Robert Walpole it was quite clear
this project did nut effect near so great a saving.
A reduction from 5 to 4 per coot. took Wee* iu the Ist of
George 11., which involved a saving of 340,0001. a year,
more than half the saving now proposed to be effected ; mad
in that case there was no guarantee. In 1749 a conversion
was effected by Mr. Pelham from 4 to 3 per cent., saving
565.0001., nearly as great • saving as that which would be
effected if the whole of the present project was c,rried into
effect. He believed that Mr. Pelham gained iu that in-
stance, though be spoke from memory, a guarantee forwent
years. The guarantee now proposed was for 40 years. In all
these conversions the terms contrasted very favourably with
the proposition before them. He now approached to modern
times—to 1822—when Mr. Vansittart effected a reduction
from 5 to 4 per cent. He dealt with a capital of 159,000,0001,
and he effected a saviopi of 1,200,0001. • year, double the
amount which her Majesty's ministers now projected say.
The consideration given was • bonus of 5 per cent.,
which amounted to 7,400,0001., a sum not too much, eonsi-
dering the amount of that which the right hon. gentleman
bad given in his second alternative. The guarantee in that
case was only for seven years. Well, now, the committee
would observe that in all these arrangement., frnm the first
of Sir Robert Walpole down to the yes: I£C2, the tulle
were extremely different from those now on air considera-
tion. If they looked at toe guirantee in ell
these errangements they found that they were given
with great hesitation, and only for a short reriod.
If they looked again at the bonuses, even the largest had
never reached the height of that proposed to be given by
the right hon. gentlemen even by one of his alternatives.
In 1824 there was another conveisien, the capital beirag 78
millions, and the saving nearly 400,0001. ; a very consider-
able sum when contrasted with the capital now to be dealt
with—namely, 500,000,0001., on which it was only expected
to nee 600,0001. a year. The guarantee too, was 0517 for
five years; so that after the experience of • century of these