The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-14 00:00:00

THE COMMITTEE ON DOCKYARD PRO-

MOTIONS AND APPOINTMENTS.
EXAMINATION OF_THE EARL OF DERBY.

Yesterday the Earl of Derby mac •
The Chairman (Lord Seymour), addressing his lordship,
said—ln consequence of a statement which has been made
to this committee, I wish to ask your lordship whether, on
the formation of your government, you made any stipulation
or condition wish the Duke of Northumberland respecting
appointments or promotions at the Admiralty ?
The Earl of Derby—When I first formed the government,
and asked the Duke of Northumberland to do me the honour
to take the office of First Lord of um Admiralty, the only
condition which I made with him was this, that he should
have the entire and absolute selection of the naval members
of the board, that he was to choose those members of the
service whom he thought the meet likely to be conducive to
the public advantage, and that he was to have the whole
and absolute control over the appointments and over the
promotions, so far as they related to the naval government
and service of the country. I did go so far, of course, as to
require, in accordance with the usual practice, that two of
the naval lords should be members of the House of Com-
mons—and I certainly now regret that I did not add a
further condition, namely, that upon their first appoint-
ment they should be, if possible, persons conversant with
parliamentary habits and with parliamentary practices.
The Chairman—ls thecommittee to understand from that
that your lordship thinks inconvenience to the public service
arose from one Lord of the Admiralty not being sufficiently
conversant with parliamentary usages and practices.
The Earl of Derby—l think there was this inconvenience
arose : that perhaps, as between them, from their not being
connected with the Mouse of Commons, and the Secretary of
the Admiralty being connected with the House of Commons,
there was not so thorough an appreciation of their relative
positions, and of the demands that would be made on both
of them, as there would have been if the naval lords had
been personally conversant with the management and busi-
ness of parliament.
The Chairman—The committee, then, understand that
you did not make any arrangement with the Duke of North-
timberland respecting his transfer of the civil patronage of
the Admiralty to the Secretary of the Admiralty ?
The Eerl of Derby—None whatever. I never even heard
of the transaction until long subeequently. I considered the
Duke of Northumberland entirely responsible for the admi-
nistration of the departments of the Admiralty.
The Chairman—lt has been represented to the committee
that Mr. Stafford stated he was under pressure from your-
self and Mr. Disraeli as to the distribution of that govern-
ment patronage, and the committee wish to ask you if
that was the case ? _ _

The Earl of Derby —I should be very much surprised to
hear that Mr. Stafford h-d made such a statement, because I
have a high opinion of Mr. S:afford's personal honour, and
he must have known that it was entirely inconsistent with
the fact, and that there was not the slightest foundation for
it. (Sensation.)

The Chairman.-1 am not aware that there is any tithe,
question the COMMittle have to ask your lordship.
The Earl of Derby.—l am not aware that I li.re soy.
thing to add, bat I am entirely at the service of the com-
mittee, to give them such information as I can give with-
out the introduction of private conversation.' ur tho
disclosure of private matters which I think I am precluded
from doing.
The noble lord then withdrew, 'ate committee rising as
he retired.

Mr. M.P., was next examined—and denied that
either the master-shipwright, at Devonport, or his assistant
were motive partisans of his. On the day that he, Mr.
Tufnell, was represented as having been in the pelt of the
dockyard chapel, he believed, Sir J. Maxwell and Sir John
Hominy were in another. It had been stated that there
ma • patronage committee in Devonport, by which he (Mr.
Tufoell) supposed was meant that there existed, as was the
case,e political
tal all o other er
consisting neg, he
ef
supposed,
d
and each sending a member to the central one. 5,
member who represented a dockyard was overwhelmed wary
hitters, and it was impossible to ascertain whether the ap-
Walnut were qualified or not. He had been sometimes most
heartily abused for recommending persons to appointments
who were most bitterly opposed to him politically ; and when
the letters did come he referred them to some member or
another connected with the borough committee. It bad
been represented to the committee that, during many
years all promotions in the dockyard, as well as entries,
hid been invariably from one party, hat that represente.
tion came from an agent of the opposite party. Them
were statements from one side or the other from political •
partisans that were not worthy of consideration at all. lie
could place a statement before the committee to show the
opposite was the case; but when these representations came
to him, he attached no importance to them. With refe-
rence to his receiving more fervent support from the voters
in the dockyard when his own friends were in power he
might state, that when he was opposed by Mr. Dawson, the
dockyard votes were 200 on either side; and that at the
election of Sir J. jtomilly the votes for his_ (Mr. Tufnell's)
opponents were rather above the average. Ito did not fee
the slightest dissatisfaction with the distribution of patron-
age when his opponents were in power. Was at the dinner
at Devonport, at which Master-Shipwright of Devonport •
Dockyard, and other officers connected with the dockyard
were present. The circumstances were these. Since 1647,
he slid not think he had been near Devonport, but in ISM
he received a pressing invitation to the dinner at Devon-
port. Ho happened to be in Germany at the time for his
health, but was obliged to return to be 'at the dinner.
Ile did not know who was to be there. Although' he had
been a long time acquainted with the voters of Devon-
port, he did not know the men in the dockyard ever
expressed a wish for the disfranchisement of the thee-
yard. Ho should say, however, in regard to that, that he
entirely concurred in the opinion of Sir Francis B icing ex-
pressed yesterday—that the disfranchisement of the dock-
yard would cure the evil now complained of; but he did
think all jobbing in the yard might be put down if the par-
ties at head-quarters were in earnest. At the same time he
thought it right to state that if the practices continued that
prevailed at the last election, he did think it was absolutely
necessary either to disfranchise the dockyards or to give
the men connected with the dockyards the right to vote by
ballot. (Applause.) Although in the House of Commoca
the Secretary of the Admiralty might be thought a very
insignificant person, yet when he went down to the dock-
yards, he was considered there as representing the Admi-
ralty department, and for that reason he could hardly de-
scribe the effect which a visit from a person so aituated at
• the time would have upon the voters. He never knew of an
occasion at other elections when either the Secretary or a
• Lord of the Admiralty had gone down to influence an
• election.
Mr. •Bere then called attention to some inaccuracies in
the proper names of parties alluded to in his evidence of
yesterday, the unavoidable result, it may be mentioned, of
the inaudible way in which evidence in many instances
reaches the reporters' tattle, arisiug further from the sotto
voce tone in which statements arc made by witnesses whose
voices are frequently lost to all but themselves and the
short-hand writer at their elbow—their backs being turned
both to the audience and table for the press, the witnesses,
instead of standing up or occupying, as in the course of
law, and committees of the House of Lords, an elevated
position where they may be both seen and heard to advan-
tage, being planted it an easy chair in the centre of a room
of most anti-acoustic construction.

Mr. Bere also submitted a series; of questions to the chair-
man, which he thought would tend further to facilitate
the committee's inquiry into the matter, observing that
the committee should be made aware of all the influences
at work.

The Chairman said these questions would necessitate the
recalling officers of the Ordnance, and observed that Mr.
Bete, being a political agent, could give no opinion with re-
ference to another party. The committee having heard him
on one side, it would be neeessuy, if they extended the
inquiry further, to call a political agent on the other, and
this would re-open the question and extend the inquiry. If
the committee went back to 1837 and 1847, and into matters
connected with former Boards of Ordnance aad former
Boards of Admiralty, it would be evident the inquiry would
last the whole session.

Mr. Dere said his sole object was to lay the facts before
the committee, and not at all with a view that they should
adopt his opinions. When he had said that there was what
was called a patronage committee in Devonport, he meant
there was a committee in connexion with members of parlia.
ment to look after certain things, and that the greatest pos-
sible inconvenience arose to honourable members who had
government patronage unless they had persons in the bo-
rough they could rely on, but this was the case in boroughs
that had no parliamentary privileges.
Mr. Beckett—You say that the former system has been
reverted to, and that the submissions of the superintendent
now come direct to you, and are by you forwarded to the
Admiralty ?
Sir Baldwin Walker—Yes.

The Chairman—When was that reversal made ?
Sir B. Walker—About two months ago, by an order in
Conned.

Mr. Stafford having denied that any interview or conver-
sation such as was stated by Sir Baldwin Walker to hare
occurred, ever took place to his (Mr. Stafford's) recollection
with reference to Sir Baldwin Walker's letter tendering
his resignation, upon which occasion Mr. Stafford said, "It
was of no use sending them to be placed in the Record-
office for all the clerks to read," said in continuation, "It is
of ne use my repeating my denial of the story int, uted to
me with reference to the Earl of Derby and Mr. Disraeli.
I still say I have not the slightest recollection of having
used the words imputed to me. Admiral Berkeley has said
he thought it was imprudent to me to do so. I should not
have considered it the least imprudent, because I should
have thought that I was speaking confidentially to gentle-
men."

Sir Baldwin Walker said, Mr. Eden, who was in his (Sit
B. Walker's) office, wrote the conies of the letters in
question which, on the 20th November, he left at the Ad-
miralty.
Mr. Eden deposed to having copied the letter in question.
The committee ordered the room to be cleared, and after
the lapse of about half an hour adjourned until Moeda/
week, to give time for the consideration of their report to
the house, and with the view, if thought expedient, of tak-
ing any further evidence.
It may be mentioned that the able and impartial manner
in which the noble chairman (Lord Seymour) conducted the
examination of the witnesses throughout the tea days' in-
vestigation—all the questions emanating chiefly from the
chair—hu been the subject of !general approbatiOn, the
duty in itself a most delicate and onerous one, being con-
, ducted with an ability seldom witnessed in committees of
the House of Commons, and fully equal to the fulfilment
of any similar duties that devolve on leading learned gentle-
, men either on the bench or at the bar.

- ---
CORK (CITY).
The committee assembled again yesterday.
Mr. James Carnegie, an alderman of the borough of Cork,
was the first witness called. lie said he attended Colonel
Chatterton's committee-room on the day of the election, and
went out after the polling commenced, and attempted to
take some voters to the poll, but was forced to return in
consequence of the violence of the mob, who were armed
with sticke and other weep: s. As many as 1,342 promises
were made to Colouel Chattertoe, and of these 899 voted
for him. 341 omitted voting at ono 103 voted againd
him. Colonel Chatterton. at the former election, was re-
turned by a majority of 209.
Evidence as to agency and treating was then pracceded
with, but it was not of an important character.
The committee adjourned shortly before four o'clock
until to-morrow (this day).