The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-22 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 22, 1851.

spinet the Roman catholic.,
bee ebeth. (The noble --- -
spike of the injustice of
11OUSH OF LI/111/S.-NIoNrAT, JTLY 21. Roman catholic, with the 1..
The L its Crieeczteon took his seat at live o'clock. 11° n'lsihir for i
the Homann
power to appoint ts own
PETITIONS PIIESENTED. than the state allowed for the i
Cover er. Per. sr r. -By Lord WILLOUGHBY )ER- dissenting church in the length)
ESBY, from Cameroon; and Earl FITZWILLIAM, :tan cetholic church upon nnoth.
from a piece net heard, in favour of the retention of the church. It was so regarded by
Crystal Palace. was that it should have those I __ privileges .
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL. were allowed to every dissenting church. The history e
The house having gone into committee on this bill, this bill was rather singular. (Hear, hear.) lie had got
The Earl of LANESBOROUG II proposed a clause, the with him three editions of the bill. It was no rare occur-
objeet of which was to prohibit the u.- of carts dawn by gener that a measure in its passage through parliament
dogs on turupike Malls. should have many alterations made in it; but when her Ma.
The Earl of MALM ESBURY opposed the clause, jetty's ministers, after mature consideration, had produced
After a short conversation their lordships divided, when a bill which they thought adequate to the urgency of the
the mealier' were: case, and which provided a remedy for this dreadful aggres-
Contrite 27 skin, and when, after it was reed a first time, the proposer
Nen-contents ,16.-ft.9 of the bill of their own accord deprived it of all that consti-
INHABITED HOUSE DUTY BILL. toted its force and stringency, and then after another stage
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, this bill allowed the bill to be not only restored to the strength of
west through committee and was reported to the house. which they had deprived it themselves, but to receive
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL. additional strength from the hands of their opponents,
The order of the day for the second reading of this bill he did confess that this was a history of the
having heels read, bill which was not very creditable. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, In "Bev* the second His first great objection to the bill was that it was at
reading, after a few introductory observations, said that if variance with the true interpretation of the Relief Are.
nothing had been done on the part of any foreign (Hear, hear.) By the 21tk section of that act it we
Power calculated to throw dishonour on the crown, and enacted that if any person, after the passing of that at,
iuterfere with the sovereign power, then he would say, re. other than the person authorised by law, should UMW in
jset this hill, levees.: it would be unnecessary ; and it' there use any title or titles of a bishop or archbishop of esig me
was anything in the enactments of the measurewhich in- or province, or of the dean of any deanery, in Enema et
teetered with the practice of that religion which they Ireland, he should, for the tint offence, forfeit and pay the
wished should he practised by those who professed it, then sum of 1001. Now, he said the fair logical inference of that
he would ales say, reject the bill, because they did not provision was that the assumption of titles of any place not
noon to withhold any pert of their religion or rights from the title of any bishop was not prohibited. The Relief Act
their ItOMAII e3thUlle subjects. (Hear, hear.) But he was to give privileges, but it was coupled with a penalty,
had to state, and he would do it shortly because all the and it was the universal rule of law to construe such an act
farts were so well known to their lord: hips, that within strictly. They were not to criteria it to that which was not
the last few months a Receipt and other documents had expressed. Ile had the honour of being a member of the
appeared, ariernete, in alistenet and unqualified terms, the cabinet which prepared, brought in, and passed the
right of conferring territorial titles in this country. 'this Relief Act. He would not undertake to say what were
reghthed bet it practically assumed andurowed without )Ming the intentions of his Majesty's ministers with reference to
received, accompanied, or forested by any explanation cal• that particular point, but this he would my, that when he
cut:sled to mitigate the character of the assumption. had been asked why Roman catholics had bishops in Ire-
(Hear, hear) Now, was that assumption of any land and not in England, it never occurred to him that it
importance, or was it wit ? He nerd not recite the terms of was illegal. He thought it was entirely owing to their own
the hill which he had to propose, and which was a very short arreneements. But he had Another reason. Observe the
one ; but the question he had to answer was, " why do you bill provided that no person should assume the title of any
MOWS at all under these circumstances t " His reply bishopric already existing in England or Ireland. There
WAS " because a movennut lies been made against us ;" and was no mention of Scotland. Why ? Because in Scotland
because that movement was of no insignificant hearing or no person was in possession of any of those tides recognised
ace, and Inc/114C great importance bail been at. by law. There were certain gentlemen assuming titles in
=m tsl the terms used on this occasion in the assumption Scotland permitted to assume them, and therefore the law
of these title.. (Hear, Leer.) It was easy to say that titles did not prohibit persons taking these or any other titles in
were of no coneequenee, and the they were net necessarily Scotland ; hut it prevented them taking those titles which
attended with insportance when they were utieccompanied ridded in England and !retried. lie thought this was de-
with power ; but he thought that if they were allowed to moastrative of the intentions of the framers of that act,
be assumed unnoticed and unreproved, the time would come herause it would have been just as easy to pro-
when they would he renewed with power. One of the most pa- hthit the assumption of title; in Great Britain as it
tnetic, learned, and dadinguished men which the, country world have been in England and Ireland. Ile wanted
lied ever prealuced, Mr. Selden, passed • long and to know how was:a Roman catholic bishop in their
laborious life in investigating the grounds Oh which lordships.' eye and in his reietioas to the public different
titles rested, and lie considered they were thing, which from a vicar epistolic ? had he more authority over them?
bad a material effect, first no the imagination, and secondly did he take their money? did the law regard him differ
no the actions of men, being as they were an emanation ently ? was there any difference whatever except in church
then the monarchy, to the principles of which he was moat government? They talked of territorial titles. Why, they
loyally attached. Ile knew that many of the wised people must describe the man somehow. 'they described the
in this country bad attached contideruble importance to vicars apostolic as vicar, of certain districts embracing ca-
ttle.; and, if they did so to titles of a profane nature, how tails counties, and they must describe bishops as the
much more should they to these of an ecelesieetis al the. bishops of districts alto embracing one or more Loan-
racier which a foreign power had to dispose of, and to die. ties. It was true the Pope might, if ho pleased,
pow of by aaturaption only. (hirer, hear.) He had always have described these hisherst by parallels of lati-
telt it to be a wise previeling on the part of the government tusk and longitude; he must have some mode of
oithis country, and more especially the foreign depart- informing the faithful who was the bishop placed over
mint, that it heal WI steadily, and on some occasions so them. Ile said, therefore, that to talk of territorial titles
,illy, refused to allow foreign take and distinction• in as it a territorial title conveyed any righter any poseemiun,
thes country, except in few and rare instances. was a complete mitapprehensiou of terms. The language
'they bad refused to do so because they lilt teat that of the rescript was in the ordinary language of the court of
was the fountain of honour, nod that the riuntain Rome. Look at the bishops lately appointed ina friendly
of honour shouldbe reserved to the crown untouched. protestant state, where the l'ope had a concordat, the
In fact thew who had been most disposed to noddle with beehive established in l'ruseie. Why every village in the
the rights of the crows in other respects had exercised the most minute particular wag described as belonging to the
most entire forbearance in this. They ni ser presumed to sees of those bishops. But of course they had no more
interfere with what was felt to h, its first and exclusive authority or power became thew territories were described
licerogutive namely, the right to iletenniee who should where spiritualjurialiction existed. They had no more autho-
wear and ;too shoal' use titles and distinction., of this na. rity than if, as he laid loeNre, the l'ope had described
hare. (Cheers.) This was • thing of substance, though them by parallels of latitude and longitude. And when
apparently a thing of form, and he hoped that their lord. the nettle marquis talked of thew bishops being established
,hips would deem it their duty to preserve untouched to the by foreign authority, why, there was nothing established
crown that right which had MVO so distinctly and so eaten- that was not established by law. Them was nothing real
tetemely steeled by a fifteen potentate. (Cheers.) But in this. Did they suppose that because the Pope had issued
they who were resesting the proceedings of a fereatn prince thew decrees, therefore the law gave effect to them ?
had Lately hed an opportunity for recognising that bele- Nut at all. As far as we were concerned, this was no este-
retake, in other co untries. which thee claimed Inc them- blrihment at all; it had no existence, except in words, and
eerie from this political power and all others. Net many could not operate in any di.gret whatever upon protest:ode.
years had elapsed sine, we appointed a Bishop of Gibraltar But the noble marquis had discovered that there was not only
and • Bishop of Juresalem; hut while we gave the Bishop an aggression against the honour und independence of the
of (lihreltar, which lesilungea to oureilvio, territorial jurie- country, but that this act was illegal, WAS against the
diction, we only gave to the !bebop of Jeruedem a personal ancieut law of the land. lie could not assent to that doctrine.
authmity over such Christians in that part of the world as They lied revived an olsolete statute thet had slept for 2.10
might desire the benefit of episcopal euperintenelenee ; and years, and which, as tar as its application WAS concerned,
that benefit he could not deny hi the Romen catholic sub• had been unknown for many generations. The noble
jecre of this realm. (Hear, hear.) There were some marquis had quoted the case of the Lakes, which was the
of our own church who admitted that proceedings only unhappy instance in which this statute had been put
of an ifirntivii character hot taken place-who in fore: ; he had referred to that trial, and he (the Earl of
granted the impropriety of the terms which had Aberdeen) would refer to it to show that the statute of pot.
hewn enteloyea, Ina who, nevertheless, wi re "'Wine munire had no application to the act that had been per-
mdo nothing on the subject. 'they admitted thed the pule. termed. Whatever Ldot's case might have been, the pre-
he feeling had been strongly, and not unnaturally, excited, sent CAW was not applicable. If it iir.tv, it applied to vicars
but who knew, they *said, that this feeling might not suer apostolic as much as to bishops, for LAMe himself was only
stile t They edmithel th.st an offensive art had le en cum- a vicar apostolic, and wen proceeded against as such. If,
matted by the meet of Rome, but who knew that it would as the bill declared, the appointment or these bishops
lie followed up by any other alit, or that any dangerous was illegal, all that the bishop did in his rapacity of bishop
ennertpellrell would ensue? But he (the u•thle marquis) re- was illegal, and be wee really afraid to encounter the cou-
pled, the 'surest way to produce thew et it tonoluencee sequences of this. 'I hey had been called upon to come to the
and to maintain alive the agitation in this country would rescue of the Queen of Call realm. If there were eon
he to allow to the people that parliament had determined to peril, must assuredly there were few in that house who
do nothing. (loud cheers.) Now, could any one who had would more nimbly respond to that call than he should;
observed the na. .r in which the court of genie hid been but believing that the danger was a mere chimera, he could
feelmg it. way, both its spiritual and temporal matter, deny not for an instant listen to such a call us that. Ile wanted
that the surest mode to incite further attempts of thin de- to know how the supremacy had been invaded. They
wription would he to show the court of Rome that their surely could not expect the Pope to acknowledge the ecele-
loedships were not prepared to stand up for the iudependance eiasticel supremacy of the Queen, any more than they could
01 the country, or hi Papilla the national opinion when the expect him to agree to the Iteform then. The l'ope ac-
rights of the (Teen hail been a...ailed, (Cheese) In proof kneel...aged, no doubt, the temporul power of the Queen,
that the exercise of the catholic religion in ite pro but her spiritual supremacy he did not :acknowledge. Fur•
per embolic bens., and for legitimate eetliseic objects, tunetely the supremacy of the Queen was not the
would in nu degree ho' impeded or embarrassed by this bill, Sllprelllley of liestry VIII., of that sanguinary
the noble lord quoted the report of the law oft- creature who mete himself the Pope of this kingdom.
...ire an Laler's cm.,'. in which they state that they 'lnc 'ieas of that supremacy lied never been actually traced
bed net peureciled against him, se they might out or deliwil. The eight reverend prelates ham found
have il e and obtained a conviction under the later cod great .litliculty in describing it themselves. (Laughter, and
precedent law of Elizabeth, but they heel pro:muted him '• Head.") In proof of this position the noble lord quoted
wader one snarled 211) years before, when the king and the wonting of the different addresses from some of the high
parliament were Homan catholic. That conetitutionel law church dignitaries, SA fur as they referred to the Queen's
had only been Partially retwal.l for a particular object, in supremacy. This supretuatiy had been, after all, treated
whet was called the Emancipation Act ; tie taw Emencipe- somewhat cavalierly by her Majesty's government some
twin Aet which hal granted, and grautea wisely, immense year. ago. The noble I aid at the head of the govern-
',mitre." to the Roman catholic" of the United kinadom meet had, among various device,' to introduce Jews.
las WAS universally submitted by the Rotuma eetholies them- into parliament. brought in a bill to repeal the oath of
selves) still reservist to the crown the right to create supremacy. Well, if thcoath of supremacy had been some-
biehopries and appoint bishops to peniculer sec,. (Bear, thong so sacred as was euppoted by mein in these days,
hoar.) By that art !Lenten catholic bishop. were prohibited it had been rather disrespectful treatment of it to
from taking any titles under the court of 'Lime : but they, prop,so to repeal it so far as the members of both Houses of
hod, nevertheless, setisfectorily heel aim I under it all refinement were concerned. Now lie begged to inform the
the function, and duties of their office. lie appealed to house that this oath of supremacy was utterly rejected by
their lordships recollection, whether, when the uct passed, the church of Scotland, and also by the episcopal church in
they had not expressed their satisfaction cud gratitude for Scotland, and certainly her Majesty might number amongst
it by a public declaration, in which they stated that the most loyal and attached of her subjects mane who de-
it hail conferred upon them inestimable privileges? (Hear.) need this supremacy. Although he would he disposed to
He therefore thought it was too late now to tell them that or etiewe in that oath as far as he understood it, he really
it was impossible to discharge the functions of the Boman thought that when all the religious denominations in Scot-
eetholic church under that act. (Churn.) The Roman ca. land utterly rejected it, it could not be raid that the act of
!holies had been satisfied for years, their bishops exercised the l'ope was so very unwarrantable. Prelacy was abo-
their authority under the art in Ireland, laud with vicars- fished in Scotland, and was prohibited in term. ten titnes
apadolir in England -and, by the wey, Ite had been in- more severe than any of their law, against Rumen catholic',
formed that one-third of the Rollout cube., world was still and episcopalians were allowed to erect bishoprics in
aluithistered under vicarsiapostolic-AMI there rare it was that country without anything being said against the
too late for them to say that they wen• impeded in the ex. proceeding. It was not, however, to be thought that he
effete of their functions. (Hear, bear.) His object, nu far disapproved of the treetmeut of the episcopal church
horn interrupting, was to preterite their frictions; but be in Scotland. It met with his entire approbation,
teetered that thew functions could be se eared without vie. and all he desired was that the same privilege's should he
eating the rights of the crown. (Cheers.) lie admitted, extended to the It union catholic,. (Hear, hear.) He
however, if he were asked whether he ceasieleted this bill would nut recognise Roman catholic prelates. lie would
to he essential to the maintenance ref the protestant retie not give them any legal existence or authority, but he
con, ho should answer no. (Clweri.) lie was one of would acknowledge them in the cone way as the episcopal
those who thought that the protestant religion did not rest church in Scotland was acknowledged, and he did not know
ter its rapport and for its strength upon net. of parliament, on what principle of (oarsmen sense or justice they could
..e upon the contrivance" of statesmen. (('heers.) But he prepare to act otherwise. It was said the prerogative of the
was net the lementivineed that it was int male at upon palish crown had been invaded. He wished to know how it had
meta to proclaim its adherence to its iniutiples, and its heel invaded. lie could understand the invasion, if the
determination to support the crown in its privileges, con. l'ope bad appointed parties to come into that
settee as thaw privileges were both with the state and the how,, and had given therm the meter of doing
. hearth. (Chews.) tie thought it was their lordships' anything which interfered with the exercise of the anthm
duty to their myerrign, amid to the people of this country, rity of the Queen. This he could understand. But
that. thiakiate themselves secure in the sincerity of their when a prelate was only aimed Bishop of Birmingham or
opinions, they should nevertheless recognise by this. declare. Itohop of Ilexham, they hel only to ignore the bishoprics,
wry enactment what the privileges of the crown in con- as they did by this bill in the cue of episcupalians in Scot-1
section with religion had bees, and what they were laud. (Hear, hear.) It was true these human catholic 1
determined they should be. (Cheers.) He therefore cwt. hisliops wen named by a foreign prince ; but had they just 1
adored their lordships would do well to pass this bill, and he discovered that the Pope was • foreign prince ? That might
trusted they would pass it by a large inejority. tHear.) be a good reason against tokratine the catholic religion;
lie believed there never was a moment when the but they had agreed to give them full toleration, and they
people of this country were more resolutely de. heel Karma it with the full knewledge that bishops of the
tenifined - (thews) -to maintain their own religious I Roman catholic church could be named by no other autho
Imhof, and to maintain undisturbed and iaviolate by . ray cecept that of the Pope. (Hear, hear.) But then the
say foreign power that most meted gilt of God insolence and the arrogance of the act were strongly dwelt
to man -liberty of conscience mid the rigat to free inquiry. ion by the noble marquis. He wit nut theme to defend the I
loud cheers.) He was not diepowd to withdraw any mewl- terms in which the act had been promulgated ; but
lege from their Roman catholic fellow-subjects. 'they Ihe must say, that if they complained of the errors of '
might, if they chose, come into London and buiael a St. the rope, they complained of his character ; for such '
Pail's, although thin would not allow us to build a St. l things as were complained of were inherent in the character
Peter's at Rome. (Loud cheers) He would give them of the mike. The terms used in the rewript were Urine
more than they would concede to protestant. ; but, while he ; used on all similar occasions, as was perfectly well known
wished that their privileges should lee undisturbed, they ' by all who were acquainted with the Langone: of the Ro-
sman set to ask that the prerogative-sof Engiiehmen. which , man court, and it was preposterous to think that by the
were rimed in the crown, should he given up. (Cheers.) 1 words used any insult was intended 'o be offered to the
Ile begged leave to move the second re.eling. (Loud crown and people of this country. (Hear.) lie knew a
cheers.) • great cation lead been made by the p.istoral of Cardinal
The Earl of ABERDEEN considered that, as Mr. 1 Wiseman. In that pastoral he had stated that he was ep-
ithelium,. observed in his e Constitutional History," pointed governor of a district and that he woutl "govern, '
usatidtsling wi
Losertt religious sectaries there was no , but how '. govern r• Simply as a bishop in ordinary.
warn persecutive and patronage. If i Mehl,/ If, however, the government and the country had
they persecuted they must exterminate. if they tolerated , been so much enraged at the insolence of this iostruount,
the,' must oinetion. (Hem, hear.) Fur 200 loOtr years they i surely they proceeded in a strange way to meet it. The
has tried their almost to extrimmate the Romeo cetholies i noble marquis heel said that we had nothing to do with the
but they had failed, and sow, within the last 10 years.' ' catholic" of this country-that our business was with a foreign
they had adopted the course of toleration. This hill, hows '-
power. But the measure would most certainly effect the
ever, had not the excuse of the old laws. They were no Itenten catholics here. The Pope insulted this country, and
doubt very unjust, but they legislated within their pr,. they in turn both insulted and oppnied the Roman
since. Tan bill went beyond its Province. Surely the cathe'lics re
.(Cheers' 3id - lieu hear ") pressed
this offence,had
cation of bishops was an stet purely spiritual. It was true - been such as it was described,l
it' was an offence met by the
re
that we had beer accustomed to associate with the idea of , palihe• law' and one which ought to have been proceeded
a bishop the temporal incidents of baronies and the like, ! .4/rime bythestate by diplomacy or otherwise. lie knew
but a bishop was really not • title at all, but an office in the it would be said that her Majesty'sgovernment were, to •
ceurels. (Hem, hewcertain .) But they denied to the Homan ea- extent, .
precluded from taking
the course of diplee
tholes the regular government by bishop-. insteel of the' wary by what lied happened in that boos iin ISIS, when
eseeptional government oh viemeeete.e... • -Lei ne betted a b•••• hed ban bieu.eat in to establish diehineitic relations
the refore to refer to the stateureut ed 3 Ile:/:e lord (feat with :Ile elute of Iteene, and when a clans;
any
had beeia iatro-
the reception here of any nuncio from
Grey) with regard to the repeal of the disgraceful statutes dor.ed prohibiting

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

searcely.be impacted to escape. If the bill continued to be
anything bat a dead letter, there never again would be
peace in Ireland, and on such grounds he concluded by
moving that the bill be read a second time that day three
months.
Lord BEAUMONT said than the difficulty he felt in ad-
dressing their lordships apaathis 'abject did not arise front
any doubt in his own alai Y is the course he ought to
pursue, end it had been ram& in one respect by the
speech just delivered by the wile earl, inasmuch as some
of the points as whit* he lei wet dwelt, and the results
he had anticipstai as. •meseure, were completely
viriaaary, end ameaver be area tinned with respect to that
=betease he UV* that some of the excuses
OM Mak earl made for the conduct of
a had. MO we rather the appearance of aggravations
than arems. When the noble earl remarked that the
usiApass et the semenment of this country towards
Rama calm lad hem la encouragement to the Pope
to loiol AO emu L lath pursued, he (Lord Beaumont)
should Wait liossibleght that that very indulgence which
had bests thaw la alma catholic* and to their religion I.
this warier wield have been an inducement both in
whom Oi interesity to that foreign court to ab-
stain hen e.g act that could be hurtful to the
feelings WI the people or the dignity of the nation.
By this papa act the bishops appointed could acquire no
addition*, their spiritual character, while he conceived the
attempt, considered in a temporal light, was an infringe-
ment of the law of nations. The argument which certain
cutholics derived from the infallibility of the Pope he would
entirely reject, for that doctrine was not catholic, but
Roman, and the claim of infallibility was mere usurpation.
(Hear.) He wanted to know what was the change in
spiritual character which had taken place—to ascertain what
was the difference in a spiritual point of view between the
Iposition of the bishops as they formerly were, or rather as
they might have been without a measure like this, and their
position as it would be as the effect of these transactions at
Rome. He had looked into this point to see if it had
answered their expectations, and he had found, unfortunately,
but little in the way of explanation, but enough to prove
that, so far as spiritual affairs were concerned, there was so
change with respect to the whole body of Roman catholic*
in this country. He would refer to Cardinal Wisemaa
as the best authority on the point, and whom he knew as •
gentleman and a scholar whatever opinion ini.tht be
formed of the wisdom of his maxims and the propriety of
the course he had taken. The noble lord then read some
extracts from the opinions of Dr. Wiseman to the general
effect that the hierarch created would be not one atom

was a member ; and by that
voured to guide himself. (Cheers.)
•
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose, amid profound
, silence, and said—My Lords,-1 am one of those who, in
1829, prevailed upon your lordships' house to adopt the
Catholic Relief Bill • and I think it my duty, feeling the
responsibility. to declare, on all occasion., tinder any eir-
camstances, that I object to any alteration which may be
proposed in that act. All the provisions of that art were
well considered at the time. The act was founded upon the
petitions presented to parliament from Roman catholic'
during thirty years. Various acts of parliament
were repealed. Care was taken in giving securities
W the church. All was maturely examined and
mmeidered ; and, finally, that act was proposed to your
lordships in the shape of a bill, and was curled in both
bas! of parliament by large majorities. I think it
aiwys way duty to maintain the provisions of that act.
I iseedma, therefore, that I saw, with considerable alarm,
•la and other papers which have appeared in the
NUM of last year, under which the appointment was
Mel d a hierarchy by the Pope, and other measures
wen adopted which have occasioned the bill which has
boss proposed this evening to your lordships by the
noble marquis for the government. I confess, my lords,
the great concern which I felt was founded upon
the necessity which seemed to me to be apparent
that it would be absolutely impossible to pass over these
appointments without further acts of legislation. (Load
cheers) The Pope, himself, a man of mild character, a
popular individual, a man seeking out popularity on all
occasions, shows, in this very rescript, that he was sensible
that there were two modes of providing for the superior
ecclesiastical jurisdiction for Roman catholics in this
country. (Cheers.) He discusses, I say, in this very paper,
the two modes of attaining the objects ho had in view.
One, the appointment of vicars apostolic; the other,
the arrangement which has beat adopted ; and
under which a Doctor Wiseman has been created
Archbishop of Westminster—thus creating an arch.
diocese in this very city, here,' where we have the palace
of the Queen, and the seat of the legislature—(cheers)—and
under which, moreover, there has been ass appointment to
this country, to this island, of a Roman catholic hierarchy,
consisting of an archbishop and several bishops. (Cheers.)
This has been in preference to the mode which has been re-
cognised and approved of by the government, as wasacknow-
ledges' by the person who made the preference. (Cheers.) My
lords, I confess that I am anxious to know what could have
been the motives for the preference of this new mode of pro-
ceeding. Tho noble lord who has addressed you just now
so much to his honour—(cheers)—knowing the state of
Roman catholics on the Continent, knowing the state of
affairs at Rome, and being sensible of the desire of parties
at Rome to stale different opinions in this country, has re-
ferred to the rescript. But, my lords, I did not discover
what it meant until I read the attack of Cardinal Wiseman
upon the Dean and Chapter of Westminster. (Laughter.)
Was there no object of antagonism in it? It was clear
what the object was: it was the old doctrine of antagonism
adopted by the advice of the cardinal himself ; for at the
same time thut he published the rescript lie canveyed the
announcement of his own promotion, and snide this attack,
entirely undeserved, on the Dean and Chapter of West-
minster. (Hear, hear.) Ile could no longer doubt the ob-
ject of this proceeding at Rome ; and he hecame sensible
that he must give his consent to a certain alteration of the
terms of the Roman Catholic Relief Act. lie could not,
therefore, concur in what had fallen fromhis noble friend
(the Earl of Aberdeen) when he proposed that the bill
bo read a second time that day three months. Circum-
stances had occurred to render it impossible for us to re-
turn to the position in which we stood before this act of
aggression WWI committed. When the relief act was passed
the object was to tepee! all the laws which had been occa-
sioned by the suspicion of popery on the throne ; next, by
what was called the popish plot ; then the acts passed in
consequence of the popish reign of James 11., and all sub-
sequent penal acts against Roman catholics. Nothing,
however, was done by the relief act which could affect the
law by which the Reformation was established in this coun-
try ; but if the laws to which he had referred had not
been repealed, the Pepe could not have done what he
had done, and Cardinal Wiseman could not have dared
to come to Englaud and published his bull or rescript,
and made his own appointment of a hierarchy ; it could not
have happened—it was impossible. Under these circum-
stances, he thought they could not return now to the posi-
tion in which they stood at the period of the Relief Act, or
before the tensing of the net of 1810. That act repealed the
penalties which attached to all the old acts, but left the
law in such a state that a misdemeanor might be committed,
but no punishment attached to it —no security was left for
the public. Under these eircuinstauces they could not
stand on the Relief Act, they must leave some measure to
vindicate the established church and the public, and to
prevent the recurrence oh' such measures as they had lately
witnessed. Lit them do that wheel was necessary to secure
the power and protect the prerogatives of the crown, and no
more, and they might rely upon it that they would have
the support of the people of Ireland, as well as of
this country. (Hear, hear.) He was very sorry to differ
frets his noble friend near him (the Earl of Aberdeen),
and he had thought it necessary to say this much in expla-
natiou of the vote he was about to give.
The Earl of MALMESBURY supported the bill, but no-
thing would induce him to do so if he tnought it could be
fairly considered as an interference with the religious free-
dom of any Roman catholic.
Viscount CANNING feared that the bill might jeopardise
the great principle of religious freedom ; and when they
founded legislation of that character upon a belief that the
Pepe had been guilty, us regerded this country, of an act of
usurpation, the proof which they offeriel ought to be of the
most perfect kind ; but whatever douht might exist as to
the question of usurpation, he was really to admit that an
insult hail been offered, nut to the crown or the people of
England, but to the church.
The Duke of ARGYLL reminded the house that they
had two documents to deal with—the rescript of the Pope
and the pastoral of Cardinal Wiseman. A more pompous,
said a more absurd document, proceeding from a proud and
foolish priest—(loud cheers)—had never been brought be-
fore the notice of the English people than this letter.
(Cheers.) The noble lord said he would have answered that
pastoral letter, but whether in his place, or as a cabinet
minister, or in any other capacity, it was utterly beneath
his notice. (Hear, hear.) Well, teen, there was the re-
script of the Pope, and in that he presumed the noble lord
would only have found the act which it accomplished that
he could have noticed; for he could nut conceive that
there was anything in the terms of the d. ce-
ment itself, apart from the act which it expressed, that
deserved the notice of the noble lord. It would be incest-
sisteat, then, with his noble friend's declaimer, to sup-
pose that her did not acknowledge that the act itself was
one which demanded a protest of some kind front the Eng-
lish people and the English government. (Hear, hear.)
and if the party to which Lord Aberdeen belonged were in
office, they could not consistently with their avowed prin.
leiples do otherwise than direct their legislation against the
pastoral, for they argued strenuously that the rescript was
expressed in the terms always used upon such occasions.
They were referred to the episcopal church in Scotland, to
the Wesleyan', and to others ; and wishing to be impartial,
he should like to see similar penalties (he did not mean
penalties of 1001.), but penalties applied to the episcopal
church of Scotland. (Hear.) But he protested most em-
phatically against their lordship being seriously called
upon to regard the protestant sects in the same manner as
they were entitled to consider the vast hierarchy of the
Roman catholic church. (Loud cheers.) la reply to the
argument against the bill founded on the necessary conse-
quences of toleration, he pressed upon the house the position
that because they tolerated the faith of the Roman
catholic, they were not therefore bound to permit every-
thing that the court of Rome chose to call the requisite
developements of its eccheiastical system; and with regard
to the Charitable Bequests Act, he had always held that
there was nothing in that statute which at all precluded
them from legislating upon this subject in whatever way
the necessity of the case might seem to require ; further,
he would maintain that parliament had done nothing to
deprive itself of the right and power to control any part of
the ecclesiastical system of Rome which in the least degree
interfered with the freedom or independence of this country.
He entreated them to remember that they bad a solemn
responsibility to discharge, not only to themselves but to
future generations, and if the Roman catholic religion was
to advance they could, and they were bound to, se, that
that advance should not be aided by steps trampling on the
ancient principles of their public law and the sacred Fero.
gatives of the English crown. (Loud cheers.)
The Earl of AIRLIE briefly supported the bill.
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S, considering the question
before them to Leone rather political than religious, thought
that parliament should not have the least hesitation in
dealing with it. The recent measures cf the court of Rome
were avowedly adopted for the purpose of propagating the
religion of Ro:nc ; they commenced with insult and injury,
those attacks being obviously intended to be followed up by
continued aggression. The insult consisted in ignoring and
passing over those who had an interest and ought to have
a voice in matters which so deeply concerned them.
As to the specific injuries which might possibly result
from these aggressions, the people and government of
England were not called upon precisely to point out
in what they might consist; it was enough that
there existed rational grounds for apprehension—causes
fully sufficient to justify them in delaying that they
were now prepared once fur all to make a determined stand.
It had been argued that there was a breach of faith, and a
violation of the Relief Act. If that were so, he would say
that the breach of faith was not on the part of the pro-
moters of the present measure, but rather was to be im-
' putts' to the Pope himself, who now, finding that his autho•
rity no longer rested on the secular arm, insisted more upon
his spiritual jurisiletion, and pushed with increased vigour
his aggression on every state and community in which the
system of Rome had obtained a footing. In voting for the
bill then before them he enjoyed the satisfaction of knowing
that its adoption would not preclude the government from
taking any course in the way of remonstrance, or otherwise,
which might be deemed expedient.
On the motion of the Earl of WINCIIILSIA, the debate
was adjourned.
Then lordships adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock.

he had cadet-

more a bishop than he then was, and that his jurisdiction
would not be extended ; that every bishop would be as he
had been before ; that the sacraments had been as well
administered before as they would be now, and would re-
ceive no additional efficacy. It appeared then, the noble
lord continued, that he was no more • bishop than before. '
Surely then nothing was gained. A distinction must be
drawn between the creation of a bishop and the creation of
the persons to be governed over by the bishop. The
creation of a bishop was an act of • spiritual
nature. There was no objection to the Pope cre-
ating a hundred bishops, and giving them jurisdiction over
Roman catholic' in one part of the country or another, and
indeed he wished the Pope had called them bishops of the
Roman catholic' residing in Beverly, for example. The
Pope had the power of doing that, and even of fixing their
designations, for in other cases similar powers had been
exercised; but it was enough to say that the mode of
making bishops had not been changed. Ile could
not say there would be no other change, but in
a spiritual sense Cardinal Wiseman said that there
had been no change whatever. (Hear, hear.) The
law of the kingdom gave full liberty to the spiritual power,
but restrained the temporal power; and he must say that
much of what hail been interpreted as spiritual promised to
have effects much more of a temporal nature. (Hear,
hear.) He contended that the temporal appointments of
the bishops must be ruled by the monarch who wore the
temporal crown, and protested against all doctrines to the
contrary. (Hear, hear.) Ile then referred to the address
presented by the catholic body to her Majesty, professing
the greatest respect for those who had signed that declara-
tion, but intimating doubt that they represented the whole
of the Roman catholic body or anything like it. (Hear,
hear.) In that document he had observed to his
horror, instead of the bold declaration of their
ancestors in the reign of Edward the Third, that
they would not submit to the usurpation of Rome, or to
the degrading tyranny then exercised, that, instead of
boldly standing up, like their anceetors, to oppose the in-
troduction into this country of all that tyranny, social and '
domestic, which prevailed at Rome, he had found the de-
claration that the spiritual authority of the Pops
could only be limited by his own free art and
consent. The noble lord here quoted passages
kern the address which has already been printed in extestro.
The Pope himself, despite his three crowns, was but a puppet
in the hands of other powers. He could not defend the lan-
guage which had been used by Rome, tor agree with Lord
Aberdeen that the act of the Pope had been only of a spiri-
tual character—no spiritual act could mike it necessary to
heap insult upon insult upon the crown and upon the insti- 1
tutions of a country. Nor could lie overlook the arbitrary
conduct of the Pope in abridging the liberties of the ca-
tholic hierarchy in Ireland. The appointment of the Most
Rev. Dr. Cullen showed that the l'ope had assumed an ar-
bitrary power in Ireland, which ho was prepared also to
exercise in England, by the absolute appointment of all the
Roman catholic prelates. Ridiculing the idea that the
papal document was intended merely to nickname certain
individuals, and contending that it was meant to do
away with all ancient sees and episcopal rights in Eng-
land, and to declare the acts of the Queen and of
the parliament void, he asked whether such was
the proceeding of a friendly sovereign, or not ra-
ther an attempt to stir up a rebellion in the laud.
(Cheers.) Were England to do iu Rome what Rome did
in England—were England to incite the Romans to set the
authority of the court of Rome at defiance—what would
have been said ? Ile looked at this apostolic document in
its distinct sense, and be believed that the majority of
Roman catholic. in this country would feel it binding on
their conscience to obey it in its distinct sense. This, then,
WAS the dilemma in which Rome had placed
English Roman catholics—that, on the one hand,
they must break with their own church, or
on the other hand, violate their loyalty to the Queen, to the
constitution, and to the principles of our national character.
(Cheers.) Nothing could be more dangerous and mislead-
ing than the argument that this was a spiritual matter, only
compulsory in the spiritual signification. The court of
Rome, in puiut of fact, had provoked confusion in the
country. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl (Earl of Aberdeen)
warned them of the consequences of the application of such
a bill as this to Ireland. The noble earl contended that the
bill would destroy the peace of Ireland. Well, but this was
another illustration of the error and the crime committed
by the court of Rome. (Cheers.) The noble earl had al-
luded to the reactionary movement throughout the conti-
nent of Europe, and had spoken of the danger of ultra-
montane
doctrines being everywhere established. It was
most navies ionably true that the ultra-montane
party was predominant, and not so much on the
other as on this side of the Alps. (Hear, hear.)
This fact could be easily traced to its source. Unfortunately
these who entertained cis-Alpine views were not an active
and were not the governing body. The other party were
jealous, • of had given their character to the whole conti-
nental human catholic church. And he believed that in
this recent movement it had been fully in contemplation to
give to the Roman catholic church in this country au ultra-
montane character. (Cheers.) It was manifestly an attempt
to destroy at once that liberal catholicism which had rapidly
grown up of late veers among the Roman catholic' of this
country. (Hear, hear.) It was an attempt to bring over
the whole Roman catholic body satisfied with their existing
position to those absurd ultra montane opinions maintained
by a few fanatical converts, and who by their fanaticism
had dame more harm than all other men to the Roman
catholic church. (Hear, hear.) It was, above all, intended
to introduce, what he hoped never would be intro•
ducat!, the interference of the church of Rome in
the educational establishments—to get rid of every
liberal institution established in England or Ireland—to
destroy the Queen's colleges in Ireland, the greatest blessing
ever liestowed on Ireland—to undermine the national sys-
tem of education in Ireland—and thus, by all practicable
means, to wall mound the Roman catholic' of the country
with such safeguards as to deprive them of every liberal
study and science which could clash with that spirit of ab-
solutism distinguishing the court of Rome. (Loud cheers.)
The intent was to establish here, in effect, an " Index el-
purgatorious "—banning Roman eatholies from everything
ithistratiog and reflecting the spirit of the age. The court of
Rome, it was known, had condemned astronomy and scouted
geology. Astronomy was called infidelity, and geology was
protested against as materialism. The object of Rome in
England, as elsewhere, was to get into its own hands the
whole education of the people, forbidding everywhere
anything like freedom of conscience, or the spirit
of freedom. (Cheers.) And because this was the
character of the policy of the court of Rome, that
policy had received the support of assolutist power,
1 That,umnt; hea fidr,mb,lycatl,,ihveedw,
.wuestagheou6elphoveweinanacctr.:ruliaraceodtlisft
huiteetwr7rilyirgoihetnhhisnuec.i
though he believed that they were but handling a wea-
co...llllh.,
acincotle,licr,itiwoulucl wou7lomtheetleiiismellve.
Austria,
I
get rid of the fairs of Jposeph, and, in hail,
manr :the'
laws of Leopold the Second—all which had before made
those countries comparatively happy, contented, and quiet.
of
sciences—and
had
nini
con-
science—this hesitation in joining' in any attempt to protest against this
ieihsreleigtnieeoinus—valllesnwrtaoyrf—°netahirsrertwye—arj
this attempt to force us back to the barbarianism of
the middle ages. (Cheers.) Ile did not regard the move-
' ment as a mere naming of names. It was • great move-
ment on national iudependenc.; and this, as an indepen-
I I dent country, was called upon to resist the assault.
[ i (Cheers.) And he supported this measure of the govern-
ment because he coueidered it to be in the nature of a pro-
test. For they all knew this bill would be • dead
' letter. (Laughter.) Had a different course been taken, he
I , believed they would have avoided much of the agitation
j which had lately shaken the land. To a certain extent,
I ; that agitation had been natural and desirable, as declara-
, - lOU ..3f t'ae nuti mai Indige.ation. Ile was most anxious fur
i • the nteresu of the lto:nao catholic., but he was also max-
i
I Wes for the interests of the whole community of which be

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, JULY 21
The S took the chair a little before 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.

Mr. COLLINS, the newly-elected member for Knares.
borough. was introduced by Mr. E. D. Denison and Mr. Wal-
pole, and took the oaths and his seat.

otli oho, anti especially tgihe I—h the Pope. kt was aprafAgnod sort of pretext in the matter,,
ern then read tbr, ' , which but • was nit n isggigay tensor weight. It wig.
,till
' interfering with ours aliens f no reason t eerishipsicition with the I'ope CT thb
ri, Pope on purely • • ;matte t pbher on the Contisent—Presela
. 'The
tumor catholif 'to lat ..• a rep tire at Ole court of Home, but did lot
own br.st4p le asked no *ere liaise a nuns*, Bosnia aid Honorer, he thought, were
'or the in 111=i, of ikthe ammo 'Wise. key 's De had IdwaY, oPPoseds amid
le npl.)=. e re" t the ,boeld coligiane to opposeThrettempt to introduce a popish
n noother fuotingthan as a issenting nuncio into England. Thera were many peewits who hail
rded by the law, and all he de/4W just reason to complain of the bill, but none had greater
I those rights and privileges which cause than the Pope, for the declarations of Lord John
dissenting church. The history of Russell and other ministers laid a trap front which he could
.... ....