The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

PRIVILEGE.

Sir F. THESIGER said it would be recollected that soma
time ago an action was brought against the Serjeant-atarmo
for having, in obedience to the warrant of the Speaker, az-
reeled Mr. Howard, and brought him to the bar .to be
examined. In that action the serpent pleaded • justifica-
tion, end tames at law having Iron raised, ma 'Taman took
place in the Queen's Bench, and, after a considerable time
taken to consider the question, a majority of the judges in
that court decided against the jiistibeatied. The judgment
of the court was not more unfavourable to that house than
the principles on which they. proceeded, and which
were calculated to place the important privileges of
the house at the mercy of the courts et justice.
(Hear, hear, hear.) The subject having been brought
under the notice of the House, a select committee was ap-
pointed to consider the best course to be adopted in vindica-
tion of their privileges, and after a careful consideration of
all the circumstances, and looking to the grounds on which
the judgment proceeded, the committee (out being willing
to have recourse to any extreme measures for the assertion
and maintenance of their privileges, as long as any hope re-
mained of a favourable decision by a court of law,) agreed
that a writ of error should be brought. That (room having
been adopted, it was argued before the Court of Exehequer
chamber last term, and he had the satisfaction of informing
the House that this very day that court had tinanimnualy
pronounced a decision reverting the judgment of the Court
of Queen's Bench. (Loud cheers.) It might he important
to say that, although in obedience to the drire of the House,
the important question as to its right to determine its privi-
leges was argued, yet the nature of the case was such that it
was unnseessary for the court to pronounce any decision
ea that important point; but he might be permitted to
say that the result of this inquiry placed the house in a much
more favourable position in ascertaining and vindicating
their privileges, without any apprehension that there would
ho in future any assumed ft:obit:a or authority on the part of
the courts to interfere with that house. (Hear, hear.) If
the house would permit him, he would move, as it was de-
airable that the house should be in possession of the meet
I accurate information, that the house be furnished with a
copy of the short-hand-writers' notes of the orpiment and
judgment fur the purpose of being :printed and laid before
I the house. (Cheers.)
The motion was agreed to.

TENANT RIGHT (IRELAND.)
Mr. 8. CRAWFORD said be did not wish to in-
terfere with the adjourned debate, but as his motion was
important, and intimately connected with the state of Ire-
land, he hoped the noble lord would Ward him an early op-
portunity of bringing the subject forward.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to a discus-
sion on the subject, but he hoped the goscrnment would
before long be able Vs bring in a bill to remedy the prevent
state of the law.

- -
estates p• chaps °ace a year in order to coricat the rents.
(Hear, hear.) The I‘4lll, member fill Bath said the available
income of the Irb'ss proprietors was oaly 3,000,0001. out of
12003.0341. It sons estimated by the poor 7a+ commissioners
of 133'; at 6,03;s,0001. bat there was • return made to the land
emaunission ea the sub See. which he thought worthy of the
attention of the house. It appeared from this, that in an
average of three year& property to the amount of 702,00 W.
a year was under the, Courts of Chancery and Exchequer,
that during those 'pile years the arrears of the property
increased from • emnporatively small sum to 400.0(101.,
and that the n ,ma read in costs amounted to 30,0001.
Wnilst this iud' easel the possession of property to a large
amount, it had listed also that there must be • great deal of
ntiannoagens eat with regard to the conduct of estates under
the Court of Chancery. (Hear, hear.) Any measure
which woe id enable the proprietors of large districts to sell a
portion of them, would be attended with great advantage to
Ireland. But the system of borrowing on mortgage which
prevail A ia Ireland was different from that which prevailed
in this country. Here the mortgage only affected that put
of th estate on which the mortgage was effected ; but
in %rebind the money was borrowed under bond and
kid guest, and the whole of the property was liable.
Tl le effect of that system was, that those whose property
wras affected by the judgments, found it quite impossible to
'relieve any portion of the land of the charge which was
brought upon it. He had node-tire to enter into the question
of the subdivision of land. An hon. member had said on
tho previous evening, that every one in Ireland was out of
his proper position. He had a right to ask whether !wide-
lion had not had something to do with that. (Hear, hear.)
He was a strong advocate for the maintenance of the union,
but he could not conceal from himself the fact that the
anion, by drawing the landed aristocracy of Ireland to this
gauntry, nocemanly tended to raise a clogs is Ireland
to • position which did not naturally belong to
them. The hoaourable and learned member for Bath
(Mr. Roebuck) had, in strong term., charged the
landlords with culpability in the management of theirestates.
He was not re
.ppared to deny that in times gone by the
landed proprietors of Ireland had been guile of great neglect
and improvidence; but he believed that within the lest thirty
years there had been a marked improvement in the general
habits, opinions., and conduct of the landed gentry of that
eountry--a spirit of foresight, &desire to economise, and &de-
termination to improve their estates ; and unless the hon.
and learned member meant that they ought to carry out the
eteaream system, he was at a loss to know precisely what it
was with which he charged them. For his own part he would
rather the landlords erred in allowing the population to mul-
tiply than in acting too extensively on that /system. (Hear,
hear). They were now reaping the intim of their
own neglect of repeated warnings. (Hear, hear.) Whoever
might he to blame for the remote causes of the disarrange-
ment of the social system of Ireland, the immediate and
proximate causes of that disarrangement consisted in the
great disproportion which existed between labour in Ireland
and in England. There was scarcely a single evil which
could not be traced to that source. From what did the
eooacre system arise ? From the difficulty which the farmer
had in paying his labourers in money. The best thing which
they could do was to introduce capital into the country. He
approved of the measures of the noble lord, because they
were founded on that principle. The only government mea-
sure of which he disapproved was that of giving outdoor
relief to the able bodied; he thought that that would tend
to prevent the increase of habits of industry. He could
not too strongly impress on the house his belief that the im-
provement of Ireland was not to be effected by what were
called " great measures," but by a genes of small
measures. (Hear, hear, hear) There were many evils
which might be considered comparatively indifferent in that
house, yet by remedying which the habits of the people
would be improved, their energies stimulated, and a
peat advantage be secured to the country. He thought
that the appointment of a legal commissioner to consider how
far the law of property in Ireland could be beneficially as-
similated to that cf England, was a desirable step. An
hon. member had said that the late meeting in Dublin
was a meeting of landlords whose object was to secure for
themselves as much as they possibly could, He would ask
hon. gentlemen to refer to the resolutions adopted at that
meeting; they would then perceive that the description
given was not correct. The bon. member for the University
of Oxford had designated that meeting as "a meeting of
united Irishmen." He would like to know what
stronger proof could be afforded of the imminent
danger of Ireland than the fact that gentlemen
differing essentially on the most important points, felt it
their duty to lay aside their political hostilities, and join to-
gether for the purpose of rescuing their country. They were
united, not to destroy, b-t to preserve; they e ere united,
Wit to create, but, if possible, to prevent the horrors of a so•
eial revolution • they were united, not to inv lee the country
in anarchy andeonfusion, but to raise the condition of the
people, and, in the words of the resolution by which the
unroll was formed, " to save all classes from the ruin with
which they are at present threatened." (Hear, hear.) He
could, too, smuts his hon. friend that the union amongst
Irish gentlemen on that subject was but a faint reflection of I
the unity of purpose and the harmony of feeling which ex-
isted amongst all classes in Ireland at the present crisis.
(Hear, hear.) This heavy visitation of Provident* had soft-
ened men's hearts, and had milled forth the holier and better
impulses of their nature ' • and it was delightful to
see them emulating each other in an endeavour
to alleviate the miseries of their fellow-creatures.
(Cheers.) He quite agreed with the Chancellor of the
Exchequer and the Secretary for Ireland, that Irish
eo-operation was essential to the samessful carrying-out of
any measures for the improvement of Ireland, and he
thought he could tender the united and zealous assistance
of those who had heretofore been kept too much mender in
the promotion of measures which had that object. At all
events he was quite sure that all measures would be consi-
dered imepectively of party oonsiderations ; and he could
say for himself, most unfeignedly, that he should
be the first to magratulate her Majesty's ministers,
if the measures which they proposed should prove to have
been calculated to alleviate the present distress, and
to conduce to the permanent improvement of Ireland.
Mr. J. O'CONYELL said it was not his intention to
occupy the house for any long time, simply for this reason,
that while they delayed the progress of these measures
the people of Ireland were peris ing. (Hear.) With the
utmost haste which the house could make, they would not
be able to overtake the numbers who were suffering from
famine. He had no wish, however, to prevent proper dis-
cussion. and there were two or three characteristics of
the debate which he himself could not help noticing. In the
first place, he felt bound to bear his testimony to the general
sympathy for the distress of Ireland, and to the apparent
readiness of every party on each side of the house to adopt
the strongest measures if they appeared to afford a chance of
relief. The next characteristic which had been dis-
played was, he was sorry to say, a degree of
ignorance respecting the social state of Ireland,
which strengthened has conviction that no parliament but
one compose! of persons resident in the country was com-
petent to make the laws. The third eharactenetie—he was
happy to say it was less general than the two preceding ones
—was, the aspersions and attacks made on the landlords
of Ireland. One gentleman had in that respect rendered
himself peculiarly prominent—though of course anything
which came from him possessed exceedingly little weight in
that house, and still less in Ireland—(laughter)—he referred
to the hon. and learned member for Bath, who, at a time
when almost every other gentleman in the house seemed
anxious to dismiss from his mind every irritating topic, made
the most malignant attempts to rouse anger sad
ill-
will, and to prevent them from coming to • fair
and calm conclusion. In his speech of the previous
evening, there was a *odor running attack on the priesthood of
Ireland—en attack all the more ungenerous at that moment as
that priesthood were sacrificing their lives in attending those
who were suffering from famine and disease. (Hear, hear.)
The Catholic priesthood did not, however, need his (Mr. J.
O'Connell's) vindication, as they did not heed the hon. and
learned member's attacks. But the hon. and learned mem-
ber also attacked the people. He said they came there
in a beggiog posture. He (Mr. J. O'Connell) indignantly
denied that each was the case. He would also say that the
people isf Ireland did not deserve such expressions. It was
whilst they were exhibiting instance, of heroic resignation
that they were selected by the hon. and learned member for
Bath as torgets for his foul aspersions: ( Hear.) The Irish people
had not adopted the tone they might have adopted at the
present not-adopted;
They had not said that by the legislation of
the imperial parliament Ireland had been robbed, or that
the money now being given to Ireland formed but a smell
portion of the money which would be found to be rightfully
due, were a fair account to be settled between the two
countries. (Hear, hear.) As regarded the hon. and
learned tirember's ;Racks ou the Irish landlords, though be did
not den thatthere had been grave faults, he must remind the
house that the legislation of the last 46 years had been such,
that Irish manufactures bad perished, and undue com-
petition for land had ensued, attended wish e-ratiqoent
evils. At the present time. he 0.,.-'al, the
Irish 'anchorite acre actin t's, s ably. He
concurred with the hon. member f nrveraite of
Dublin in rejoiderr that all parties w.. 'Sing their
guierah'e M'erences inifealaiting for , . rood.
ilisirmaa of a relief camases- is t • bourhood of
Dublin, he hail men gentlemen of the L., • °Pinion!,
uniting, their only coutenhon being al.- ' • do most
to afford relief, clergymen of different • . , Ssoa ern,,
amongst the number. There was, in fact, a ni.nasc.sr
isl
soi:.liiti &rid brothethis arhuoodore. Amidst the darkness, of tb.ifr Pres.:n
iPse :4,
Ifghtt.ttlear, beer.) He bright
t and Ilim):"l.°;m'es!ragra .it bail
committed a great mistake is not having endeatsor'o to
supply We people with food but he admitted that an pro-
posal of that kind was not liicely to have been sweetest.° i'l,l
August last. The amounts from Ireland every s'sy wertr-
ficient to distract the mind, and ha feared that it !bey di, not
adoptsotoe means ofsupplying the people with foot , they windd
count the deed not by thousands but by hundreds of the irosPds
Looking at the effects of the Poor-law in Engine lu, he felt ,
that in Ireland, where the number ofpaupers bon so largo.a
proportion to the number of rate-payers, all the evils of trf
system would come upon them at once if the governnicat pro.
posed and carried its extension. Nevertheless, hews. hound
to my, that under the pressure of distress with which the
country suffered, he should no more oppose the passing of
such an extension of that law than he should imps. -
the
launching of a raft were be in a sinking ship. Their curet at
the-present time was • desperate one it was • case, he was I
bound to say, which never would have occurred had they
been left to govern themselves it was a rase for which, as
he and multitules of others believed, there war but one real
panacea, and that panacea was the repeal of the union.
Lord CASTLEItEAOH wished leas to speak to tile
general question than to express his respectful and heart-
felt thanks to her Majesty's government for the mason,
which they had oroposed. He thought they were govern-
ing Ireland well. their lord-lieutenant was au excellent
officer of the crown, and he could beer testimony that
the appointment of an Irishman to the chief , filer in Ire
land was creating great confidence in the minds th peo-
ple. He wished to take this opportunity also of saying that
ha thought the Lonelier& of Ireland were, as a clam, much

'1

aimed. He had heard in that house many elided eager-
tied madeagairat theta, but he had not yet beard cited one
single individual illustration. At the same time, no one
could doubt that there were bad as well as good landlords in
Ireland ; and, far his own past, if any one in that house
would propose a tax upon absentees, be (Lord Castlereaeh)
would be one of the first members to support it, on the con-
dition that the amount seised by such taxation should sa
expended in Ireland. He concluded by observing that the
question of administering relief to the able-bodied out of the
workhouse seemed to him to be a question attended with
great emote:at difficulties.
Mee. LAWLESS thought the measures of Per Majesty's
government came six months too late. For many of them he
was thankful ; and some it was betsser to adopt atthe eleventh
hour than not to adopt at all. There were others, however,
which were likely now to demote harm than good, and among
these was the measure relating to distilleries, which, if it had
been adopted six months ago, would have raved much grain
for the use of the people, bat the only effect of which a, the
present time, would be to. ruin the last remaining manufac-
ture of Ireland. (lied.) He felt that the present wasa great
crisis in the affairs of theacountiy; one in which she must either
rise immeasurably, or fall altogether. Good government was
what they wanted, end if they consulted their own interests
they would secure i.t for Ireland, for they might depend that
if she fell, England would participate in her ruin. The hon.
member for Bath. had spokes of Ireland as the bane of Eng-
land. Certainly, that member's tone and language was nut
calculated to turn that bane into a blessing. He was asto-
nished that one who had, no doubt, drank so copiously of the
healing waters of Bath still felt so nervous whenever Ireland
was mentioned. He would advise the hon. member, before he
spoke again, to acquire a little knowledge of the country
from personal experience.
Mr. GREGORY observed, that if ever there was an occa-
sion when the principles of political economy might be pro-
perly relaxed, it was the present; and he blamed her
Majesty's government for adhering too strictly to the rules of
that science, by declaring to the corn-dealers their fixed
intention not to interfere with the importation of foreign
grain into Ireland. It would have been better for the govern-
ment to have said "we will abstain from interference so
long as or unary commercial operations can goon, but when
we find these ineffective then we will step in." (Hear,
hear.) He blamed the government also fur keeping their
stores closed during the greater part of the winter. Despite
the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he knew
from personal knowledge, and he was assured by others, that
many of the government depits had never been opened.
They would have done infinitely more good had they
opened their granaries two months ago, than they could do
by opening them now. In his opinion it was now almost too
late. Their soup kitchens were establishing when hundreds
were already dead; their navigas ion laws were suspended
when no benefit could arise from their suspension ; and they
took off the 4s. duty on corn only just when it would be
profitable to the speculators, and a dead loss to the Exche-
quer. No one made greater allowances for the difficulties of
tee government than he did; no one more admired their
lord lieutenant and the chief secretary for Ireland; but
if they asked him to give them credit for being
far-seeing and sagacious statesmen, he must decline
to do anything of the sort. (Hear, hear, hear,)
The great principle on which the imperial legislature should
proceed in its enactments for Ireland should be to give
encouragement to than; who merited it by their industry
and energy, and to apply the spur, end that not lightly, to
the lazy, the apathetic, and the improvident. The circle of
responsibility should be drawn close round
every person con-
cerned, so that no vagueness or remoteness in this respect
might present an excuse to any one, but each be distinctly
aware of what he was called upon to do. (Hear.) lie doubted
whether the noble lord's measures were sufficiently
stringent in their compulsory effect. lie thought that
the I sndlords of Ireland had been as a body most
unjustly assailed. There were, unquestionably, cases
in which Irish landowners had been and still were guilty of
great neglect of their duties towards Ireland •, but these
eases were exceptions. The heaviest difficulty that had im-
peded the progress of Ireland, was the narrow-minded
policy of England, which had checked her manufacturing in-
dustry. (Hear, hear.) The wisest statesmen had seen and
denounced the injustice and mischiesousnesa of this policy s
but for centuries it had been persevered in. The north of
Ireland clearly proved of what that country was capable,
where its manufactures were allowed to proceed, as in the
south, to a certain extent; but, like the south of England,
circumstances showed the struggling p :verty to which the
absence of manufactures condemned a country like this.
Sir H. W. BARRON expressed his great gratification at
the kind and conciliatory tone manifested by speakers on
Doh *ldes of the house, and of all parties throughout this
debate. lie corrected a fallacy in the speech, on a former
evening, of the hon. member for Coventry. The bon. me:o-
bey hal greatly underrsted the extent to which Ireland par-
ticipated in imperial taxation. Of the fifty-four millions
of annual taxes, Ireland was subjected to her share of forty-
eight millions, a proportion much larger than that stated by
the hon. member. Tho hon. baronet repudiated the propo-
sition that the Irish came as beggars to implore advances
from the imperial exchequer. Ireland was united to Eng.
I •nd in a common bond, and her people were as well entitled
to make demands upon the common exchequer as tie English.
It had been flippantly asserted that to talk of a loan to Ire-
land was an absurdity in terms, seeing that never had a loan
to Ireland been repaid. lie utterly denied the truth of this
assertion, and could, on the contrary, distinctly affirm that
never had there bet n a loan to Ireland, fur public purposes,
which had not been repaid, and with immense interest—ay,
' with immense interest. Always with the five per cent. in-
terest; and, as in the case of the loan for public works, men-
dotted by Mr. Nimmo, with five per cent more, Mahe shape
of increased consumption of all exeiseable commodities in
the localities of those public works. The evil legislation
which Ireland had suffered at the hands of the impe-
rial parliament, arose from the utter ignorance under
which that parliament had leboured as to the con-
dition, and character, and wants of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
The present position of Ireland was the consequence of
English misgovernment. He trusted that English members
would recollect that, and not visit their own acts on the Irish '
landlords and people. His countrymen had much to com-
plain of a portion of the English press ; and one calumny, in
particular, he could not allow to remain unanswered. It
had been generally asserted that the money paid by the state
for public works in Ireland, or that which had been gener-
ously subscribed by English charity, was often expended in
that country in the purchase of fire-arms. (Hear, hear.)
' Now, as far as the labouring population were concerned,
a grosser calumny was never uttered. (Hear, hear.)
Farmers and persons in the more comfortable classes of so-
ciety had purchased guns and pistols to protect their pro-
perty from apprehended a.tacks by the starving people, but
' none of the latter he could confidently, assert had expended
the scanty fruits of their labour in the purchase of fire-arms.
' (Hear, hear.) He thought it hard that the landlords and
people of Ireland should be so much taunted about what
ought to be looked upon as a great calamity. Why, many
of our colonies had in times of misfortune received aid
from the imperial exchequer, and no one in that house had
thought it a proper subject for taunt. 20,0001. was granted
to Quebec after the fire, and the more insignificant colony
of Newfoundland had a grant of 30,0001. after the conflagra-
tion at St. Johns. Why then should an exception be made
in the case of Ireland. (Hear, hear, hear.) With
regard to the introduction of poor-laws into Ireland,
he had always supported such a measure, and should
continue to do so, hut hoped that government would
introduce an efficient measure and not one which should
make the good landlords pay for the sins of the bad
ones. One subject more he stashed to allude to—he mesnt
that of Irish runways. lie knew that government had had
' the subject under consideration, and that political economists
were opposed to any assistancebeing given by the state.
But he trusted it would be held in remembrance that the
present was an extraordinary crisis requiring extraordinary
remedies, and that state assistance to railways would be
adopted as one of three, and as one most likely to
afford the great Irish denderatum, employment. He
begged, in resumiug his seat, to return his best
thanks on his own behalf, and on that of the
• Irish people for the generous charity which had been so
actively exhibited by the people of this country. Such probes
, of good feeling and •otherhood would do more to conciliate
• the Irish people then a hundred acts of parliament. (Hear,
• hear.)
Mr. LEFROY 'spatted that the tumainaity so graerelly
' prevailing should have haw alisterbed by say Omega tis
the Irish Church. He thought *et the primeat adgeueywas
one requiring all their attention, and that to It their anew
. tion should be confined. (Hear, hear.) The preemie at
calamity was great on the people of Ireland at the plume
moment, but still he had one consolation and that was that
but three members of that house had attempted to obstruct
the humane intentions of government. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. member for Montrose proposed the abolition of the
• viceroyalty as a panacea for Irish ills. He (Mr, Lefroy) I
cared little about the office, but this he must my that it
i had never been filled so much to the universal mtisfac-
t tion of the Irish people as at the present moment. (Cheers.)
' The sugg-etions of the hon. and learned member for Bath
• for alienating the property of the Irish church, and sweeping
• away the law of entail, were in his opinion unworthy of a
f British statesman or a British lawyer. It had been truly
• said that one great cause of the position of Ireland was the
. , constant struggle going on there for political influence, and
• undoubtedly to the 40s. freehold, as a franchise qualifies-
, non, such of the misery of the country was annhutable.
He believed that the measures of the government were cal-
' 1 culatod to confer great and important benefits on Ireland,
especially if due attention were paid to the many important
practical suggestions which would probably be advanced
' when the bills were in committee. The hon. member con-
' eludes/ by expressing a hope that in future legislation for
• Ireland, emigration and colonisation would not be host sight
'ofas a means of carrying off the surplus population. lie
I thanked the government for what they hod already done,and
wished them every success in their endeavours to improve
the condition of Ireland.
j I. el r LEM ENTS defended the landlords of Ireland from
/ the charge laid against them by. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, of not attending to their duties on the relief corn-
' metes s, a charge which the right hon. gentleman hinusolf
remand when he adverted to the absence of all local ma-
, Mary. One great cause of the failure of the Labour Rate
jut woe, that those who were i practically acquainted th
wm, the reentry had not been consulted in the framing of
l it t Ifie period of the year when it was brought forward being
1 that shest Irish members were necessarily absent ; then
the enestitution of the relief committees rendered it impos-
tsible e r thee to act togeher for good. Again, the s•fficers
' appointed by the government had acted without consulting
I the magisarstes, else were acquainted with the requirements
I of the several localities, and the result had been that em-
, ehs.ment had been given to farmers and others who were
not entitled to it. lie had sugeested that a line should be
drawn, sei I that thee. also did nut pay 41. a year, and who
eansequs•ntly were not rated, should alone he employes'. No
such plan, however, had been adopted, nor had any list of
petters (he spoke now more particularly in reference to his
urn perish), been made out. The breaking dowa
of the act hail, in fact, been occasioned by the

'REM, WEDNESDAY

distrust the genterhigints -.r•-•
fflffillialfflA4 eti
gentlemen. sails thed tOntenesi
extent te,, lithe •eerv%o4, , amen
this ven would be *Jodi ' to mutt
lia" Aced the Itspidelesysteffas Mot • it
I Ahrens to agneettnreS and-rateslAdsm smith
most important commerce being that of the home a
and the interchange of the produce of the _country _
manufactures of the town, and condemning the encourage-
ment of agriculture to the prejudice of manuhnures. But
Ireland was without artisans and manufacturers ; govern.
ment had encouraged absenteeism; the consequence was,
that she had no population in her towns to form a home
market for the agricultural produce of the country.
If this system were persevered in no one could complain of
the demands which were necessarily made in consequence of
it upon the purse of England. It was a most ruinous system
to the country,and the government ought gravely to consider
how far they could compel the Irish proprietor to do his
duty. Nothing had given him more pain or trouble as a
magistrate, than endeavouring to protect the farmer against
the landlord's bailiff. (Hear, hear.) The time was certainly
come when the absentee landlords ought to be compelled to
look after their property, to attend the assize, and act as
jurors. It was also of the highest importance that some
means should be adopted for forming a home market; with-
out which it was impossible that a country so purely agri- i
cultural could avoid such calamities as Ireland was at present
afflicted with. He would peen upon the government the
necessity of establishing inland depots; for even with a Gut& •
ciency of fond upon the coast, s famine might, nevertheless,
exist in the iotenor of the country, so great was the difficulty
of transmitting it. The land in many districts was com-
pletely exhausted, and he feared that it must be thrown out
of cultivation, unless other measures than those before pm-
Bement were enacted, to enforce its tillage. He must do
the government the credit to admit, that in the barony in
• which he lived, every public week that was undertaken
had been attended with the greatest benefit. But he was
. utterly at a loss to know how the measures of the govern-
ment could meet such a case as that of Castlebar presented,
and which was only one of many. In Castleber 3,t50 emu-
piers, being the immediate lessors, paid rates, and 6,761 paid
. no rates, the quantity of land in the possession of the latter
being 72,382 acres. And yet this was a difficulty which it
• was absolutely necessary that the government should grapple
• with at once. They must adopt somemeatut for compelling
those who luta Lind to cultivate it, or else let some one else '
do so. The prior-law of Elizabeth had been recommended'
for Ireland. When that law was passed, the state of Eng-
laud was as bad as that of Ireland at the present day; but
• that was not the first nor the only means adopted by
Queen Elisabeth for improving the condition of the
kingdom. It was, in fact, one of the last of her enact-
ments ; having previously in 1462 passed en act for
the maintenance and increase of tillage, and an act for
labourers, servants in husbandry, and apprentices ; in 1470
en act against usury—an act which was much required in '
Ireland—another act fur the increase of tillage ; an act for
the punishment of vagrants and the relief of the poor and
impotent ; an act against the erecting and maintaining of
cottages otherwise than in domains and villages, unless they
bad four acres of land attached to them. That was a penal
enactment and appeared coercive, but he thought
. that something of the kind ought now to be instituted
considering the rapid increase sf population in Ireland
He (Lord Clements) for the last eight years had done all in
his power to assist the peer, but he confessed he had been
l discouraged and almost broken-hearted at the small results
which had ensued. With every d sire to acknowledge the
kindness towards Ireland which bad been exhibited by the
house, he yet implored them to be firm ; and in dealing with
. the difficulties of Ireland not to make any further false steps.
It was most distressing to see the poor man starving neer the
relief works. If the legislature neglected to declare what
, should be the pivot on which the persons who were entrusted
I with the administration of relief were to turn, they could
not expect either public or private individuals to uudermke
: the task on their own responsibility. The land must be
cultivated, and the crops raised, which were to produce food
i fur the people, and unless parliament took the lead in this,
, the present situation of things would only be the commence-
meet of more serious disasters.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that his noble friend who had
just resumed his seat had blamed with some severity the
conduct of the government and the Labour Rate Bill ; but
there was one observation of his noble friend which had
given him so ninth gratification that it hal removed from
his mind much of the weight of the unpleasant feeling which
had been caused by the severity of his other comments.
His noble friend had declared that in his barony there was
no public work which had been undertaken under the Labour
Rate Act which would not be permanent benefit. It hardly,
therefore, lay in the mouth of his noble friend, who from
a sense of justice had been obliged to bear his testimony to
the beneficial effects of the bill, to pronounce en sweeping a
oeoaure against it. He (Mr Labouchere) confessed he had
heard that declaration of his noble friend with surprise. It
was true he believed that the evil effects which had been
attributed to that bill, and the wholesale condemnation of
the work' which had been commenced under its operation, had
been exaggerated ; but he was too well aware of the justice
of many of the animadversions which had been uttered
against the nature of the works, and the circumstances un-
der which they ware carried on, not to be surprised to learn
that it should be said with truth that in any barony the
works would be a permanent benefit. His noble friend
went on to tax his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, with uttering &sweeping censure on the c induct
of the landlords of Ireland. He (Mr. Lab maitre) did not
understand his right hon. friend to have used any such ex-
pressions. He was sure that if his right hon. friend had so
spoken, he (Mr. Labouchere) would not have been prepared
to concur with him. He had, durinz his official resa-
dence in Ireland, too many opportunities of observing the
conduct of the landlords, some of whom were in that
house, and among them his noble friend (Lord Clements),
who had been for the lan four mouths constantly resident
in his own couatry, and carom ly exerted himself to relieve
its distress ; and he was too well acquainted with the public
spirit which they had exhibited, and the exertions made by
the charity of the gentry of Ireland, to join in any censure of
their conduct during the late distressing circumstances of
the country. Ball that admission was consistent with his
saying that the efforts of the government to meat the tre-
mendous difficulties with which they had to grapple were not
met by that support from the gentry which they had aright to
expect—and in saying this he was bound to add that the
relief committal,. a especially had not given to parliament and
the government the support which they ought, nor did he
believe that there was any conscientious Irishman who
would contradict that statement. The fact was admitted
with sorrow by many Irish gentlemen; but he was unwilling
to lay the blame on any class when he well knew the unfor-
tunate circumstances in which Ireland was placed, and the
gulf which existed between the gentry and the people. He
would not say that the blame of circumstances there which
had been the produce of many years should be cast on the
landlords, but he would say that he did not universally
find them making those exertions which might have been
expected from them in the extraordinary exigencies of the
country. There were many noble exceptions, and he had
received assistance in these difficulties from many, without
distinction of party, and he was bound now to offer his
thanks to those noble and distinguished individuals who
were usually op . oats of the government, such as Lord
Farnham, Lord , en, and Lord Lorton, who, casting aside
all considerations of party, did come forward and assist the
government is every manner, and with an entire forgetful-
ness of party feeling and party prejudice. (Hear, hear.)
But while he said this, it was quite consistent with
his also saying that he did feel that unless the
government received a more _general and cordial
00-operation from the resident proprietors, let them
pats what measures they might, he must despair of ex-
tricating Ireland from the difficulties which surrounded
her, difficulties of no light and trivial nature. He had
hand those difficulties described in glowing colours in that
house, and the more he examined into their nature the more
tremendous he found them. (Hear, hear.) He did not
say this with any view of discouragement •, it would be most
unbecoming in biro to do so; but on the contrary, if these
difficulties were met by a proper spirit of legislation, and
were also met as they ought to be by all ranks and classes
in Ireland, he did not doubt that out of evil good would
come, and that she would eventually be carried •
through them. But at the same time it would be the
height of pusillanimity to deny that a great and
awful struggle was before them. (Hear, hear.) Much of
the discussion during the lest two nights bad been occupied
by disputes as to the spirit in which Ireland should be
treated on the present occasion. He had heard much that
had been said with great regret; but still he believed that
the majority of the house had entered on the question in the
proper spirit. He did not think that Ireland should be a
mendicant for alms to England. Those were not the terms
on which assistance should be rendered to her, but as an act
of justice, as when one member of a family was afflicted and
in dietrns, the other members were bound by every sense of
humanity and justice to relieve the weaker and more suffer-
ing member, so was it incumbent on the imperial legis-
lature to succour the weaker and more suffering mesa-
ber of the empire. He should not he tempted ea the
present occlusion to trespass at any length on the attention of
the house. It appeared to be the general feeling of the hoses
so favourably to consider the propositions of the government
as to allow the bills to be read a second time, and to discuss
them at greater length in committee. He hoped there
would he no long interval before the house went into com-
mittee. They would recollect, that as regarded the measures
of purely temporary relief, ifthe house thouaht fit to sanction
them, they- ought to pass them with no longer delay than
would give them time for fair discussion. (Hear, hear.)
The house Appeared to be gencially of opinion that
whatever ratig,lt be said of the system of relief-works, it
was time they mere beought to a close so far as was con-
sistent with safe ty, and that another system should be
introduced. If so, time was of importance ( Hear, hear)
He did not believe t bat much injury had been done by these
relief works in draw ing the people from ordinary labour
Ile did not deny that: they had had some such effects, but
they hod been much e laggerated. The Irish government
had thought it their dut,' to issue queries to the inspectors
of the constabulary in or.ter to pia information as to the
cultivation of the soil as coripared with former years. The
result was that it was found t, sat a larger breadth of wheat
seas sown than in former years, while rye and banes had
been substituted for potatoes. Little had yet been done in
preparing the ground for the spring crops, but this prepara-
tion was always put off later its Ireland than in Eng-
land, and he believed that as yet there was no
irreparable injury done by the delay. If, there-
fore, the labourer was set free to prepare the
spring crops there was it time for the cultivation on which
the subsistence of next year depended. But while the
system of relief works was growing, which it must if the
pesplo were not to be allowed t i starve by thousands,
and uo other net, m substituted f r it, it wonld cause the
greaten of all dangers, the interfieence with the spring
crept of next year. He would venture, therefore, to
sugiie.t that it would not interfens_witli fair dines-ion
(as the bills were to be discussed in committee) if they
were read a second time without the interposition of any .

EVENING, FEBRIURY 8,-.1847.

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of the non-interference on the part of the governnient with
the Irbil' provision trade ' • bedsit had givers the 4uvernment
the credit of having acted with the best intentinus, timid any
error had becu commit:. d, tbevbtliered it seas only an error
of judgment. (Hear, hear.) ltinoing that these gentlemen
came from some of the most distressed parts of the country,
he could not have complaine: even if they had assumed
greater tone of asperity in reference to the course which the
government had pursued. But he (Mr. Labouchere) differed
entirely front the views which those hon. members had ex
pressed, and he begged to ensure them that the determina-
tion of the government in this matter had not been taken
without the gravest consideration, and he was bound also
to say, that no far from time and experience having
altered his views, he was now more than satisfied that the
course which had been taken was the proper course. They
had been told to-night that they ought themselves to have
imported provisions into Ireland on a great scale, and to have
establiabed depots, not merely on the coast, where they
had been formed, but over the whole interior of Ireland. If,
however, the government had undertaken to become the
great importers and distributers of food in Ireland, his own
conviction was, that they would have aggravated in a tenfold
degree the horrors of the famine which prevailed. (Hear,
hear.) If particular distress could have been relieved—if
prices could have been reduced—if human lives could have
been saved by the adoption of that course—attachment to
the abstract principles of political economy or still less any
regard for the merchants who deal in such commodities,
would not have prevented the government from adopting it;
but believing that distress would have been aggravated—that
mices would have risen, and that human lives would have
been lost, the goverament had been induced to maintain the
determination at which they had arrived, and which it would
have been criminal weakness on their part to have surren-
dered to popular clamour. (Hear, hear.) Among other
things, they had been blamed because they had not, when
corn was in the country, purchased it, and sold it again under
cost price. The reason why this had not been done, was
that the government felt it to be of infinite importance to
encourage and foster in every manner the retail traders in
Ireland, and he believed it would be impossible to say that
Ireland could be safe from starvation fora single month, except
retail traders were extensively eatablish-d in that country.
(Hear.) It was with this view that the government had refereed
assistance to relief committees, who contemplated a rivalry
with the regular retail dealers. He held in his hand a
letter from Mr. William Pollard, the chairman of the relief
committee of Castle Pollard, in the county of Westmeath,
lately received by the secretary of the Commisswiat Office,
in which the writer stated, " the meal, &r., is sold now
by the retail dealers at the same prim at which those
commodities are sold by the relief committee, which was
not the case until we obeyed the instructions of the govern-
ment on this subject." This letter presented a specimen of
the results which all over Ire'and had followed the govern-
ment instructions, and he repeated his conviction that it was
better not to check the growth in the number of retail
dealers, not to impede trade, but by selling under cod price to
teach the population to trust only to government supplies.
(Hear.) The government bad been further charged by the
lam. member for Clonmell, whom he (Mr. Lsboucherc) had
heard for the first time this evening, with not leaving afforded
relief to existing destitution, famine, and distress, by diming
the distilleries in Ireland. This taunt really opened a very
large question, but, without entering into it, he (Mr. Labou-
cheer ) thought it would not be very difficult to prove, that if
the goveniment had done so in Ireland, they must have done
the same with the distilleries of England and Scotland, and
that so far from effecting any pod for the suffering
population of Ireland, a great mischief mould thereby
have accrued, and that the only effect would have been to
revive that system of smuggling which it had taken so much
time, I dour, and expense, to put down. (Hear, bear.)
True, that the adoption of such a C4ll/.3 might have made
the fortunes of such distillers as held large stocks, while it
would have ruined those who had small stocks ; but as a
measure of relief to the population of Ireland,
it would have been perfectly visionary. (Hear.) While he
was on this point ( which had been touched upon by the hon.
member for Meath, who had mentioned the name of Mr.
George Roe as a distiller who had consumed a large quan-
tity of oats), he (Mr. Labouchere) was justified in informing
the house that he had received a letter from Mr. Roe,
stating that he had not consumed in his distillery a single
barrel of oats, malt, or barley which he had not imported
from abroad. This fact proved that if the distilleries had
been a'opped it would have prevented the labour-
ers therein employed from earning their livings, while
the continuance of their operations would nut have led
to the consumption of the products of the country. (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Labouchere) was unwilling on the present
omaston to make many observations upon the statements
made veth regard to the whole of the measures propounded
by her Majesty's government, because he felt it important
that they should receive, as they deserved, separate and dis-
tinct consideration in subsequent stages of their pro-
green He would only remark that it was most unjust
to say of those measures that they were characte-
rised by a desire to enrich the Irish landlords
without any consideration of their effect upon the
main body of the population of that country. This was not
the scope or object of these me, sures., and he did not believe
they would have that effect. ( Hear, hear.) Let the boom
consider what were the wants of Ireland. The first of her
wants was employment for her population. To afford the
means of employment, the legislature, unless it was pre- I
pared to put the affair in the hands of the executive goner-
meet, could not do b tter than adopt the agency of the
owners of the soil. (Hear, hear.) The measures now pro-
posed for the adoption of parliament no doubt afforded to the
Irish landlords facilities to employ the lobo, ring population
of Ireland, and he held it to be a sound principle that the
credit of England should be lent to the landowners of Ireland
for that purpose. He could not concur in the declaration that
loans ofrhis description heretofore made to Ireland had not
been repaid ; on the contrary, he believed that all which had
been advanced had been repaid, and he would add that the go-
vernment had every reason to expect that every shilling now
proposed to be sent forward to the relief of the distress,
under these bills, would faithfully be repaid to this country,
and he was convinced that it would be to the advantage
of Ireland if the repayment of the debt thus in-
curred was strictly enforced. (Heir, hear.) Ano-
ther matter of the utmost consequence was, that
the productiveness of the soil of Ireland should be aug-
mented as rapidly as possible, and he believed that no means
so efficient for that purpose as drainage works on a great
scale could be adopted. Whether these principles to which
he had given expression were carried out in an efficient man-
ne rby the measures proposed by the government, it would
be for the house to decide when they came to the con-
sideration of the details, but from the tone which the debate
had taken, he had • right to assume that already
those principles had received the general concurrence of
the house. (Hear.) He (Mr. Labouchere) had observed
with the greatest gratification the temper and spirit in
which hon. members had treated these most important
questions now submitted to their consideration, and from
that temper and spirit so displayed he augured the reat.
est benefits being secured to Ireland. (Hear.) He confessed
that the feeling and spirit evinced by the house on these
questions were of almost equal importance to the measures
themselves ; and he could not but hope the tone exhibited
would be persisted in, as from it Ireland observing an
union, in self reliance would rise up, from which the best
consequences might be expected. The course of proceedings
to-night showed to the Irish people that their representatives
were acting together in a claim for that consideration which
she deserved, and he trusted it would be shown to the
empire at large that they were not impelled by
any selfish or grasping spirit, but that they
were only desirous of laying before the im-
perial parliament the wants and wishes of the Irish
people. And his belief was that so long as they did so they
would not have to complain that either parliament or the
people of England were not reedy to do for Ireland all that
could be expected from them. (Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL rose and said that he concurred with the
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) that it would be mere
advantageous to discuss the different measures intended by the
government for the permanent improvement of the condition
of Ireland when those measures came separately under consi-
deration, than now to deal with them in a general debate.
At the same time he (Sir R. Peel) was not surprised that
gentlemen from Ireland should, after witnessing the harrow-
ing scenes presented to them in their respective districts,
exhibit the warmest and deepest interest in the situation of
their native country—should avail themselves of the very
find opportunity, not only of expressing their sympathy for
those suffering under calamities of the severest description,
but of submitting their views as to the means by which tibiae
calamities ought to be met. He for one was, however, un-
willing to offer any delay to the passing of these bills. He
was in the first place prepared to grant full and complete
indemnity to her Majesty's government for the reeponsibility
they had assumed in the course through which they had pamed.
He thought, however, that with reference to the future, it
would be advantageous that the bid of indemnity should
contain a full explanation of the circumstances under which
that responsibility bad been assumed, and with this view he
would advise that the letter which bore the signature of the
right hon. gentleman who had lest addressed the house,
should be set forth either in the preamble or in a
clause of the bill. He was, however, prepared to vote at
once for the bill which gave an indemnity to her Majesty's
g, vernment for the course they had pursued. (Hear, bear.)
With respect to the bill which was intended to constitute relief
committees, and to make alterations in the system under which
relief was now granted, he was also ready to give his
assent to that measure. The evils of the present system he
felt to be great, and the sooner a remedy was applied to
them the better, especially with a view to the cultivation
and consequent reproductivenem of the ,oil. He was rather
surprised that the right hon. gentleman had underrated the
danger arising from the application of labour to public
works, and he must remind him that in August lad, when
only from 60,000 to 70,000 labourers were so employed, he ad-
verted to the great evil of diverting such an amount of
labour from the cultivation of the mil, How metal greater
:hen way now the evil, when not less than half a tenon of
lallourers were employed on public works insteae, of the
',boar necessary to ensure the productiveness of the land ?
( Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) was quite ready' to
gives ,Me discretionary power to the governmeet for the
purpose nr altering tens system, Ile thought that the officers
who had d the plans into operation were entitled •
to the great `at credit. When he said this he did
not wish to compliment these functionaries at the expense
of the landed prop,tictors to whom, like the noble lard oppo-
site (Lord Clements)* every credit was due for their efforts
and plans to ameliorate the condition of their neighbours.
N. idler to them or to the fair vex, ever the foremost in works
of charity and humanity, .:id he intend any disparagement,
when he ualsesitatinly mid that the subordinate

.

onions to whom h. A been entrusted Cue carry-
log out the instru of the government, had
emulated the exam fle of Mr. Trevelyan, their head,
471bn hod shown the utmost anxiety, zeal, and energy, in
tit deeite to odte ace the best interests of the country.
him, and thin who had acted with him in the dis-
charge of most a donna duties, he (Sir R. Peel) was ready
to confide the administration of the new avatem, pro-
Feted by her f eajesty's government. (Hear, hear, hear.)
It was imposs'.lffe to read the volume of correspondence that
had been Pot' Dished without laying that Sir Randolph Routh,
of the Com misaariat Department, and all the officer' em-
phi) cd, be'l higher and inferior, deserved the highest credit
tor their mduatry, intelligence, integrity, and devotion of
every fa''uity of body and mind, without thought of them-
selves, co the arduous duties which had devolved upon them.
(Hear, hear.) Any attempt to limit the discretionary powers
exercised by these officers, under such circumstances,
would have been unwise ; and they had used their
discretion in the best manner. With respect to the other
measures relating to the permanent improvement of Ireland,
it would be doing them injustice to discuss them on the pre-
sent occasion. The most important measures were not yet
before the house ; and it was impossible to judge of the prin-
ciple of the measures without seeing their details. The bill
which should permit those in nominal possession of pro-
perty to sell that property was of 10 times more import-
ance, as bearing upon the permanent condition of Ireland,
than the measures they were now discussing. (Hear, hear.)
It would only prejudice the consideration of such a measure
if honourable member' were now to ezpress their views
concerning it. To the measure for the cultivation of
waste lands he would only so far allude as to express
a hope that the noble lord would pause before he re-
commended the house to vote the public money for that
purpose. (Hear.) He begged the noble lord would beat in
mind the eloquent exhortation with which he had closed his
speech in introducing these measures, that the people of Ire-
land akould learn to help themselves rather than to look
for help from the government. Let the noble lord apply
that principle to his policy ; let him try. by his policy, to
teach the Irish landlords and the Irish people to act inde-
pendently of government aid. (Hear, hear.) Let the lees-
lature be liberal and just towards Ireland, but let them be-
ware of impoverishing her and paralysing her exertions, by
teaching her to rely too much upon government assistance.
The effective cultivation of the soil must depend upon the
energies of the people, not upon any assistance that govern-
ment might render. (Fii ar.) Government interference in
inland navigation or model firms was only such as to deter
individuals from entering into such speculations, in which
there was always needed ;he close attention of individual
enterprise. It was in this way only that the permanent im-
provement of the land could be effected. The construction
of great outlets to facilitate the drainage of private estates
might be a fit work for government to undertake; but he
trusted the expense would be recovered. As to the culti-
vation of waste land, if the noble lord's bill for per-
mitting the sale of encumbered etudes was successful, he
could not help thinking that if these speculations were to
be profitable, private enterprise would be applied to make
them so ; and, if they were not to be prsfitable, the public
money would only be thrown away in the attempt. (Hear.)
His remedy would be to give an indemnity to the govern-
ment for what they had done, and to give them sufficient
discretionary power. Though actuated by no party hostility
towards the government, he felt that he should not perform
his duty did he not state freely what were his views on
measures whose operation was to be permanent. He
hoped the noble lord would well consider the matter
before embarking in such an expense ; he had plenty
of other duties to perform without undertaking the reclama-
tion of Irish bogs—a task which would involve him in the
utmost difficulties. (Hear.) On the poor-law he would
not say a single word ; the subject was one of the deepest
importance; and lie thought it infinitely better to reserve
discussion on it till be saw the measure. He trusted that
the house would, without the least delay, not adjourning the
debate till another night, apply themselves at once to the
preparation of that new system by which the permanent
welfare of Ireland was to he promoted. (Hear.)
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN wished to add his testimony
in approbation of the conduct of the offlcen in Ireland; from
personal experience be could testify to the difficulties and
dangers they had had to encounter. In his part of the
country, he had always received the most ready assistance
from them; end his district, formerly i.ne of the most dis-
turbed in the country, had become one of the most quiet.
(Hear.) He hoped the noble lord, in introducing his per-
manent measures, would give the house a detail of the ex-
pense with which they were likely to be attended. He was far
from thinking that the time for cultivating the spring crops
had passed; in ordinary years, the sowing of those crops
would not yet have commenced ; and, if no unnecessary
delay took place, the chances for the next harvest were as
good as ever.
The bill was then read a second time, and the committee
fixed for Thursday.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in moving the second reading of this
bill, said that as it was a substitution of a system of relief for
the one at present in operation, he thought it most desirable
that the house should pay immediate attention to it; he would
therefore propose that the house should go into committee on
this bill before they went into committee on the one
which had just been read a second time. He had thought it
right to ask the sanction of parliament first to the indemnity
bill ; but as the house had consented to give that indemnity,
he thought it better to proceed first with the committee on
the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill; end he should propose
to take the committee on Thursday, or, if the debates on
other subjects should prevent it, on Friday. (Hear.)
Mr. BOUVERIE said that the nature a the evil'
which bad fallen upon Ireland, could not be better de-
scribed than was done in the correspondence that had
been published, some extract' from which he read.
They were going by this bill to provide for feeding all the
population out of the consolidated fund ; he objected to this
principle, although he did not intend to offer any opposition
to the bill itself.
. . .

Mr. GOULBURN thought it would be more constitu-
tional to call upon the house for supplies from time to time,
than to intrust any government with the power of indefi-
nitely drawing on the consolidated Lund, which the bill pro-
posed to do.
The bill was then reed a second time—to be committed
on Thursday.
CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL.

The second reading of this bill was postponed until Friday.
The house then adjourned at 20 minutes to 12 o'clock.