The Express.
London, England, 1853-06-01 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 1, 1853.

pose—(hew' hear)—and no circumstance coed be more
favourable for effecting that object than postponing this
bill to a period when their lordships would be dispersed in
different places. (Hear, hear.) It was idle to say that
their lordships ought to be in the house, wbea It was very
well known that they would not he there. He had no watt
to oppose the noble and learned lord's bill, bet he thought
it ought to be postponed until next_piez.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE hoped the government
would not rive ayy pledge whatever on the subject.
Lord ABINGER thought it would he highly disingenu-
ous to take ',haulage of a bill introduced for one purpose
in order to effect another, and • different object; and if the
bill came up from the other house of parliament with ano-
ther object added to it besides that which it had now, he
could not regard it as • possible contingency that her
Majesty's government would accept it in that altered form.
If, however, it were possible, he trusted that their lordships
would be there, as on • former occasion, in such numbers
as to defeat the bill. (Cheers.)
The bill WM then read • second time.

Lord LYNDHURST 'mid that if it suited the noble earl,
he would more the committee on the bill on Thursday.
Ile wished to know what amendments the noble earl had to
suggest.
The Earl of DERI3Y said that he did not suggest any
ameadments. Whet ho apprehended was that amend-
ments would be made Caewhere which would alter the the
tamer of the bill.

Ike OM moment such an injustice, if they had had the
physical fora to peas it from them. If the hon. gentle-
man wished to have • committee to inquire into
the connexion between the Rely See and estholies, clergy
or laity, let him move for his committee, and so far as he
was concerned he had no ohjection to it, He had nothing
to conceal ; but do not make this bugbear of an investiga-
tion • reason for perpetuating an injustice upon them.
They talked about the oath taken by members, and taunted
the catholic members with trifling with their obligations.
lie did not think that was a for way of dealiag with
them. lie studied the oath before he consented to become
• candidate for • scat in the house, and entertaining
a clear opinion that the
a measure demanded by the highest in of the
nation, he did not think there was anything in that
oath to induce or compel him to give expreeeion to an
opinion in the house hostile to what he believed was the
highest interest of every portion of this country. Well,
then, they had the Act of Union. The only member of the
government who had spoken to-night had certainly given
them a lesson in agitation which might have come well
from any other part of the house, but which did not come
well or wisely from him. The Secretary for Ireland said it
was a bad time for this motion—that, if in the country
there was a certain amount of disturbance, if
they bad special difficulties to contend with, if
the church in Ireland were in Ireland—then, in-
deed, her Majesty's government might come down
to the house and say, "Crime, outrage, and agitation render
it impossible for us to continue the injustice that we other-
wise should ; we must compound with you because you are
breaking the law." That was the wisdom and statesman-
ship which shone out on poor Ireland from the cabinet of
all the talents. (Cheers.) The hue. baronet (Sir J. Young)
r.minded him of • passage in the "Life of Lord George
Bentiock," where an hon. member figured as " a disavowed
plenipotentiary." His sentiments had been disavowed by
several of those whom he professed to represent. Though
the opponents of the motion might have a majority, he (Mr.
Lucas) should not be discouraged. That debate was the
commencement of a long, it might be an arduous—he
was certain that so far as they (the Roman catholic.)
were concerned, it would be a successful, campaign. If he
wanted anything to assure him of such a result, ho should
find it in the speech of the l'resident of the Board of Trade
on the income tax. That right hon. gentleman told the
house that there was one thing above all others which re-
conciled him to the imposition of the income tax upon Ire-
land, and it was this, that equality in the fiscal relations of
the two countries would bring about all kinds of equality,
and that a new era would begin for Ireland from that
event. He believed those words to be true. Perhaps when
they were uttered there was a little bit of ministerial uo-
meaning about them—(laughter)—which was perhaps all
the right hon. gentleman meant to convey across the
Channel. But he could tell the right hon. gentleman that
they had a great deal of meaning in his mind and in the
minds of those who acted with him. If there was one
thing which sweetened in his mind the fiscal injustice which
' was about to be perpetrated in Ireland, it was that by
making it clear to the eyes of all men that Ireland was
taxed as England was taxed, by not leaving even an appa-
rent difference between the two countries, parliament put
it in their power to come with a loftier determination to
that house, and say that if it made the taxes equal, it,
should mile the institutions equal. (Cheers.) The income
tax had been described by the Chancellor of the Exchequer'
as • colossal engine of finance. It was something snore. It
was an engine which would not only strike the pockets of
the people of Ireland, but would strike down, by repeated
blows, if necessary, every social and political iojustiee by
which that country was injured and oppressed. (Cheers.)
In skilful and judicious bands it would strike off bonds and
manacles, and leave no shred of tyranny existing in Ire-
land to tell the tale of the past to • future generation.
(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, in rising to state, as shortly as
I can, my reasons for voting against the motion, I find great
facility for performing that task in the circumstance that
the hon. member who has just sat down has kept his word
to the house—that he has frankly stated his opinions, and
that those opinions may be dealt with instead of the motion
and speech of the hon. and learned member by whom the
discussion was introduced. (Hear, hear.) Laying aside I
every question with regard to inquiry into a number of cir-
cumstance,
which are sufficiently known, or which, if not
sufficiently known, may be learnt in the library by
consulting the returns made to parliament, laying
aside the results to be arrived at before a select
committee, the honourable gentleman does not conceal
that this motion aims directly at the abolition of the
established church of Ireland. (Cheers from the Irish
members.) The honourable gentleman says that the
Roman catholic/ are in a state of political and social
degradation. Now, air, the truth of that statement I
entirely deny. I do not allow that there is any political
degradation, because, with very few exceptions, indeed,
every political honour, every political distinction is as open
to the Roman catholic as it is to the protestant. (hear, hear.)
The seats in this house have been opened; the highest
offites in the state, with one or two exceptions, may be
attained by Roman catholic., who may, on the one hand,
obtain the confidence of the electors of this country; or, on
the other, enjoy the favour of the crown. (Hear, hear.)
Neither is there, as matters at present stand, any social in-
equality of which Roman catholic/ have to complain.
But sir, I now come to an inequality which I admit
exists, and to which ;this motion is directed, namely,
the ecclesiastical inequality which is to be found in
Ireland. It is not a religious inequality, because
the profession of religion, the exercise of religious
worship, is as free to the Roman catholic as to the
protestant; but with regard to ecclesiastical arrangements,
there is no doubt • state of law in Ireland by which
the endowments of the state are given to the minority, and
the great majority of the people share in none of the bene-
fits derived from them. Now, for my own part, I could wish
that in treating this question the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Lucas) and those who think with him were entirely
free from some of those bars and restrictions which have
been imposed on them in the debate of this night. I could
, wish that there was nothing in the oath taken by members
of parliament which precluded Romeo catholic from dis-
owning subjects of this kind—from asking, if they thought
proper for the total abolition of the established church of
Ireland, and voting for its suppression. (Hear.) I do not wish
to interfere with the freest enjoyment of any advantages
which they possess. When I say this, I know I nos not say-
bag anything extremely liberal, but stall events I am saying
more than many Roman catholies would say with regard to
protestant.. Bat when we come to the practical question,
whether or not we should make some very great change
with respect to tho established church of Ireland, I must
own with respect to that great subject that I think the ex-
perience which we have had of late years should not
be lost upon us. (Hear, hear.) Now there are ob-
viously only two modes in which ecclesiastical equa-
lity—for that is what is aimed at—could be obtained. The
one is the total abolition of the revenue" of the church
of Ireland. Now, sir, I am not prepared to take that
COllllll. (Cheers.) I have never been willing I. consent to
the total abolition of the revenues of the established church.
Setting aside the great change which it would make in Ire-
land, the danger as regards established habits, the violation
of engagements which have been made, I cannot but think
that you could not abolish the nvenues of the church of
Ireland without striking at the root of ecclesiastical endow-
ment., and violating the great principle on which all those
endowments are founded. ("Hear, hear," from Mr.
Bright.) The principle of ecclesiastical endowments
may be wrong, but it is one which I am in
favour of, which has hitherto been maintained by the par-
liament of this country, and I cannot believe that you
could abolish ecclesiastical endowments in Ireland, with-
out such • step leading, in the other parts of the
United Kingdom, to • similar abolition. (Hear, hear.)
Well then, sir, lot us consider whether we can make a new
distribution of the revenues at present given to the
established church, and whether, dividing solely
according to number., we can give by far the greater
part of those revenues to the Roman catholic church. In
so doing you would be acting according to principle, ac-
aordiag to the principles which you have adopted us other
eases; you would be saying, as the late Mr. O'Connell fre-
quently put the matter before us, that as presbyterianism is
endowed in Scotland, so you would have the Roman
catholic religion endowed in Ireland. Now, sir,
if the Roman catholic church resembled the presbyterian
Church of Scotland, although it might not be just that the
Roman catholic@ should have, what the presbyterians have
in Scotland, a national church entirely devoted to them,
yet I can well imagine that a large endowment should be
given to the Roman catholic church. But, unfortunately,
ecclesiastical equality would not be thereby secured. It has
been too evident of late years that the Roman catholic
church—looking at its proceedings in foreign countries—
looking at its proceedings in this country, looking at that
effinech, acting under the direction of its head, himself a
foreign sovereign—it has been too evident, I say, that it
has aimed at political power—(opposition cheers)—political
power which appears to me to be at variance with a due
attachment to the crown of this country—(cheers)—with a
due attachment to the general cause of liberty, and with a
due attachment to the duties that • subject of
the state should perform towards it. (Cheers.)
I am obliged to conclude, therefore—to conclude unwil-
lingly, but to conclude most decidedly—that the en-
dowment of the Roman catholic religion in Ireland in the
place of the established protestant church in that country
connexion with the state is not an object which the
parliament of this country ought to advocate or sanction.
(Cheers.) Sir, these opinions of mine may lead to a con-
clusion unpalatable to many hon. members who belong
to the Roman catholic church, and to persistence in a state
of things which I quite admit to be anomalous and unsatis-
factory ; but I am obliged, as a member of this parliament,
to consider most seriously, in the present state of the world,
that which is best to adopt to maintain the freedom and
permanence of our institution". (Cheers.) Now, consi-
dering, as I have already said, that I must look around, and
I must see what happens in Belgium and in Sardinia—
what happens in the various countries of Europe—l must
see the influence which, if not exercised, has been at-
tempted to be exercised in the United Kingdom. (Cheers.)
Seeing these things, and looking at these matters, I shall
give my decided resistance to the proposal of the hon. gen-
tleman for the abolition of the established church of Ire-
land, and I shall proceed on principles which I think most
conducive to the interests of the country. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT was sorry that he bad been unable to be
present during the whole of this debate, but he was
much more sorry to have been present to have heard the
speech of the noble lord who had just sat down. (Loud
cheers.) Ile did not know how the noble lord viewed his
past political career in connexion with this great subject,
nor what hopes he might fell with regard to the opinion
the country and posterity might entertain as to his future
course; but no one calling himself a liberal minister had
spoken in that house during the last 20 years in a sense so
entirely adverse to all those opinions which had been sup-
posed to distinguish a liberal from a tory government
during that period. (Loud cheers and counter cheers.) He

(Mr. Bright) noticed, too, that the noble lord on this occa-
sion, as on some recent occasions, had been cheered
with great enthusiasm by those gentlemen who
sat exactly opposite to him— (laughter and cheers)
—and that those by whom he was surrounded,
or at least those who sat behind bin—had listened in
silence, and, he suspected, certainly with disapprobation, if
not with dismay, to the opinions which he had that night
expressed. (Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Bright) knew not
whether this question of the Irish church would be held to
be an open question in the government after that speech ;
but a question affecting the English church, discussed a
few nights ago, evidently was, because several members of
the government voted against the noble lord. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord had not fairly met the question
which was before the house. (Cheers.) The motion was
one of precisely that kind which the noble lord, of all men
in this country, might be expected to support; but he pro-
posed, rather than deal with the motion (which was not in
favour of the total abolition of the protestant church of Ire-
land), not to move the previous question, but to give it a direct
negative. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had made no de-
fence of the Irish church ; and, indeed, there was no man
in the house who differed at all from tho opinions of the
hon. gentleman the member fur Oxford University, that
would undertake such a task. (Hear, hear.) But the
noble lord warned the house, that if they allowed this pro-
position to be made still more to be adopted and esta-
blished on the other aide of the channel, it would
be very difficult to maintain the principle of
the eata'ffished church in England (Hear, and cheers.)
Well, they all knew that. (Cheers and counter-cheers.)
They knew, of course, that that was one great reason why
many persons in that house and out of it refused to do
justice to the Irish people on this question, but what a mise-
rable picture they drew of their established church in Eng-
land, and upon what a rotten and decayed foundation it
must be based, if they were afraid that if a measure of jus-
tice were conceded in Ireland, it would involve before long
a similar measure with regard to England. (Loud cheers.)
The noble lord seemed to think that statesmanship con
sated simply in the preservation of institutions; but a states-
manship of a far higher character consisted in maintaining
only institutions which were just in themselves—which were
found to work advantageously, and which were adapted to
the people and the times in which we lived. (Hear, hear.)
It might, on the other hand, be as act of the most soar.
offical and revolutionary character to maintain institutions
which were not just, and to which the will of the nation,
over and over again expressed, was resolutely opposed.
(Cheers.) If the noble lord's argument were adopted,
namely, that they were not to touch the Irish church lest
they should injure the permanence of the church of Eng-
land, then no argument had been used from the platform or
the press during the most agitated times that would more
support a proposition which had found great favour hereto-
fore, namely, that the union of this country with Ireland
should be abolished. (Cheers.) If the population of this
great country were to inflict upon a mailer and weaker
population a great injustice, and to maintain it
simply because they fancied that to afford redress
would affect some of the institutions of this country,
then, if he (Mr. Bright) were an Irishman, nothing but
the impracticability of the proposition would fur a single
moment have kept him from being the most zealous repealer
of the union that Detail had ever produced. (Cheers.)
When the Canada Clergy Reserves Bill was discussed it
was argued in the speech of the President of the Board of
Works and in other speeches from the government benches
that we were bound to concede that measure to the Cana-
dian people because their opinion had been repeat-
edly declared in their own parliament, and by
the votes of 'their representatives, in favour cat
that bill. (Hear ) Well, if the Irish members on both sides
had been sitting in a parliament of their own on College-
green, they all knew that at least two-thirds of their num-
ber would vote in favour of this motion ; and therefore it
was incumbent upon the government to take into conside-
ration the evident wishes of the Irish people as represented
by the Irish members in that house. (Hear, hear.) The
noble lord talked of there being something or other which
caused the catholics of Ireland not to be ahoy they attached
to the crown of this country; but he (Mr. Bright) could
pint out a country where the catholics were as loyal to its
institutions as the protestant, of England were to their
own. Ile would refer the noble lord, not to Belgium, Sar-
dinia, or Austria, but to the United States of America.
(Cheers.) Let the noble lord point out any single
fact, or any single opinion, of an American writer
which went to show that the catholic in the United
States were not as attached to the republican
institutions of that country as any protestents of
this country were to our institutions. (Cheers.) And all
this arose from one simple reason—namely, because catho-
lic and protestant were not known to the state as such ; but
all:were treated alike—citizens of the same country, equal
before the same laws, and treated with the same measure of
justice. (Cheers.) The noble lord had adverted to the
catholic prelates of Ireland, and to the fact that some Per-
sons there and elsewhere in that church were not favoura-
ble to freedom of thought; but did not the noble lord know
that the whole of his political life had been :one continued
struggle against the political influences and combinations of
the prelates, and clergy, and professors of his own church ?
If the noble lord conceded everything which the clergy
and prelates of his own church wished, they would have no
liberty in this country which they could fora single moment
boast of to the world. (Cheers.) The noble lord said that
It would be a serious question if they were to distribute the
ecclesiastical revenues differently, and endow the Roman
catholic church with them. He (Mr. Bright) did not ad-
voeate the endowment of the Roman catholic church, or
any other church. But the noble lord was in favour of
giving stipends to the Roman catholic clergy. Where, then,
way the consistency of the noble lord ? The noble lord
was associated with gentlemen in the government
who perhaps found it difficult to agree in • question like
this; but the political character and reputation of the
noble lord ought to be dear to him. But whether it wee
dear to him or not, still the Roman catholic members would
be worthy of the contempt of the weed if they sat down
contented with the present ecclesiastical arrangements in
Ireland without endeavouring to correct them. (Hear,
hear.) They would be unworthy a seat in a senate of
the world if they did not protest against tho monstrous in-
justice inflicted on their country. (Hear, hear.) His
opinion was that all churches were not particu-
larly favourable to civil liberty. (Hear, hear.) He
knew of no church—none at least which was bound
up with the state—which encouraged the granting of civil
liberty to the people of that state or to any other. (Hear,
hear.) And the reason why the church in England ap-
peared to be more tolerant than others was, that the people
had by slow degrees acquired more civil power, and, had
subjected the church to a more wholesome public opinion.
(Hear, hear.) And if there was any complaint that the
Roman catholic church of Ireland bad more power, that
effect was to be attributed, in his opinion, to the course
pursued by that house towards the Roman catholic' of Ire-
land, which had donemuchtosubject the people of Ireland to
whatever there was of unwholesome influence these in the
priests. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible for any person
to travel in Ireland without seeing that there was one
question which poisoned all the social relations of that
country. (Hear, hear.) Be he protestant churchman, pro-
testant dissenter, or Roman catholic—if his eyes were open,
and if he judged impartially of what he saw, whether in
relation to elections or other matters of political or social
concernment—be must own that the church establishment
was the pestilent and poisonous root of all—(cheers)—
and that it alone made it impossible for Ireland to be in
that state of tranquillity and contentment which they wished
it to be in. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Meath
said that they might have a long or arduous but ultimately
a successful struggle on this question. If he (Mr. Bright)
might venture to give advice to the liberal Irish members—
whether Roman catholic or protestant—he would advise
them to make this question of religious equality the cardi-
nal question of their political movements. (Hear, hear.)
He would advise them not to let slip • single opportunity
of denouncing the injustice of the established Church in
Ireland. (Cheers.) Let them by practical measures and
expositions keep the guidon before the people of Eng-
land. Let them join with the liberal members of England
in all they did and sought to do for the common liberties of
England and Ireland, and though the feeling might not be
favourable in that house to giving them complete justice
now, they might rely upon it, that hi spite of the noble
lord, in spits of a government which probably could not
agree on the question, there was on • question like this
goodness and greatness enough in the people of this country
to make them consent to • measure of full justice to Ire-
land. (Loud *beers.)
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD, who rose amidst loud cries
for a division, said he felt the deepest disappointment at
the speech of the noble lord, for he did not expect to hear
the tone and the arguments of the hon. member for Ennii-
Mika (Mr. Whiteside) adopted by him.
Mr. MOORE, in reply, said it had been admitted on all
hands that inquiry into the established church meant its
subversion. (Hear, hear.) That such might be the natural
result he did not deny; but he denied that his speech on his
motion necessarily implied any such result. (Hear, hear.)
The house then divided,
For the motion

Against it
Majority against the motion -162

COAL MINE ACCIDENTS.
Mr. HUTCHINS moved for the appointment of a select
committee to inquire into the causes of the numerous acci-
dents in coal mines, with a view of suggesting the best
means for their p tion.
Lord PALMERSTON would not oppose the motion, and
intimated that the mining proprietors had instruction to
make inquiry into all those accidents, and to give full in-
formation upon them.
The motion was then agreed to.
REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved to nominate the select COM.
mince on Registration of Assurances Bill :—Mr. Attorney-
General, Mr. Solicitor-General, Marquis of Chandoe, Sir
Frederic Thesiger, Mr. Evelyn Denison, Mr. Vincent
Scully, Mr. Headlam, Mr. Lowe, Mr. Drummond, Mr.
Walpole, Mr. Dunlop, Mr. Spooner, Mr. Mullings, Mr.
Butt, and Mr. Hadfield, which after a short conversation
was agreed to.
Mr. AGLIONBY, in the absence of Mr. Hume, moved
for a return of the *enrol rates of postage, foreign and
colonial, at present charged fur the classes of single, double,
and larger sizes ; stating the weights allowed for each
class, and showing the number of miles fromlLondon to each
place, and the portion of that distance of sea.
Mr. KER obtained leave to bring in a bill to prevent
the spread of the contagious disease called glandes.

DURHAM ELECTION.

On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate on the
motion for a select committee on the Durham election pe-
titions,
Lord PALMERSTON proposed that the debate should
be further postponed.
Sir J. TROLLOPE said that no less than 68 petitions had
I been withdrawn, and if inquiries had been made into the

reasons of all of them being tvitheirawu, they could not
Lary been got throuith in the e.
Mr. DISRA ELI sou of opinion that theeommitteeizeuld
be at once appointed.
Mr. MUNN moved that the discussion should I.e ad.
journed, and expressed an opinion that the ithlrawing
petitions was eatirely the doing of the agents enue el.
The question was put that the &hate be adjourned, 44
the house divided—

Ayes se
Noes
titl-9
Upon re-entering the gallery we found
Lard PALM ERSION addressing the eons.. He thoseht
it was
explanation already given, the question should not he re,
ferred to the General Committee on Compromises.
Mr. DISRAELI said that here a fictitious petition
be 144
beeva n presented, mer.ely for the purpose of causing a status
cated. The government propcscd that the
mkto
should be left until a motion as to is coruntirce on am.
promised elections, to be propmed on Tuesday nut hed
ra
token its chance of being carried. Ile (Mr. Dieli) ceuj4
not see why this most exceptional exit iluuld not at ones be
inquired into in a special manner.
Mr. ELLIOT protested against discussing the quenim
at the present late hour, amidst repeated edit for a divi.
sion. lle concluded by moving the adjournment of the
house.
The amendment was ultimately withdrawn, and the
motion was agreed to.
The house adjourned at half.past two.