The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-12 00:00:00

ciare=assliburehtg arucle7 tit: =
limie= Tin by
the
holism* Tim& heel* might 11.15:31
that Re MIS Ihe mg polities in odd*** v. St
had Mil ANL ther the church of Emlead wee ,
thie bed ibt eupsesentative of Christ's church, or she it
ens Se foe ereature of the state. If she was to ha the 11
\
leen MOM of the state, they might devoid upon it disy
were asks that which would give the chunk li of Rows Or
abate dowillima over her in spite of 20,000 mots of pear
newt The noble wswasis appeared moss
ol*.
1 efasehi"Oliorw)hichccesibesedissiabillimetresemem eattmerr.s. Ilaresblathell. peatutthe 211-I"wiles
tivivisty. got bYThegraipsiligesatalidasipcsce lir
theiliallehttrcallit IPsieewas eitherd 111119.16,
ppm of the erereddering volessis sr the Quietness et Berl&
IS 1111121111 tbgt tertislups that if they looked open the
elm* of Obit sem* as a human Maim andeadennumuted
to mite it spank Wimp which hhad not leans
ed freen
its illeine founder, they might Piathseeednee pa"
WOW would find deedr—ilay sight ponies Mr*.
-but they would lei BB bed &paned. mi ibq
=Le left te deal Id* tbs row corruption of the
body politic whisk_ they lid Milenktittered. (Hear.)
After some espianiMmr from Lord ',V.:hi/OW:1E and the
lli‘hop of (Ammo.
Lord REDESDALE briefly replied, and the motion wee
agreed to.
The Bishop of OXFORD gave notice that, on Mrsday
neat, km wad news Ise a espy of certain correspondence of
the eeduirsini ismbeina regarding the estate of
Barfield.
Their lordships roes *mei aft 10 o'clock.

im"tanosnf was Ur
rtesettni°ed'",and
record of the tnut.t tac.itiam
apposse esibobleitbalY
register of its
• proreadiall•; and bi
r did reef
mitten whether they tie reislak
tlisatear, herr.) Bete* years efterwart,.., _Yrs fillapitl
beth, the vevision of thit PraYc'e _rl. 111111111—M_.
the diyince. Their revision was sm. allowed 777 7riglairlimates:ws
of parliament, and no mention,a mule o
The firs °cession on wi'ich .oamtinn lamas active a
was in the rovision of the ...iik.eta
and Lawny
la
But authority had even thel• rent weight, and wharregersie
the records of those tiler, via perceive that anummas
war enfilade gosceue4 by thes authority of a Wm imams
and was much veva din, 0.r.1 to receive mandates
than to issue them. Keen the caner moron were
nevi r submitted tot` • prevision of but de-
elan to 1"' I"ndir• j upon it by royal command. (Hear.)
After the re vo.lur Ma matters were altered. The history of
ennvoration, eh* the reign of Queen Anne, is a hides"
of altercation.. between the 'Upper House awl the Lower. It
aeon sPPes' dNI that a tinily so eimdituted was ill directed
/post of solemn deliberation or wise legislation.
The r'..diepetes were ended, as for ruler dispute', had been, by
tinr.cy personation ; and since the year 1717 it has seine
Itemeeda spedient to the government for the time he
Weise the wort reign to issue a lie, nee for the et,
Moises. in eunvocatiun. Now what can we reason bat
from what we know • What greeds have we for believing
that more ails .intage or hes injury to the church would
le stilt from tie assembling of convocation now than in the :
re4a of Queen Anne or George 1.1 (Hear, hear.) But the',
noble total who has limelight on this debate has pleaded for
convocation on the ground that every teligious body has such
meetings ; and the argument at first sight seems reaminable.
There may, however, be privileges which are not silvan-
tear. There may be privileges which it is not desirable to
(11-ar.) Between independent boilim of religishonist,
and the elewch of England no parallel can be establied.
They are not insulted in the constitution of the country.
They nay meet, mil deliberate, and reeolve, without con-
stituting that anomaly in government an inspertion in ins-
peri. Anil, after all, is peace or harmony the result of
them meetings? The conferences of the Wesleyan body,
whenever they have led to • change in the mode of
government. have ended in separations and recessi,ma.
(Ilea', hear.) Anil I doubt whether the General As-
sembly of the church of Scotland, which might be best
compared with ours, though different in a very important
particular—l doubt whether that it always a source of
peace and harmony. Meer, hear.) In the diary of the
late Dr. Mutineer, i find theta words—. May S. A meeting
of pn*hytery. I dislike its atmosphere, though it is
my duty to enter it, and, if possible, to soften and
Uansforin it." And again—. May ff. A most tempestu-
owe day in the presbytery." Certainly, my lords, the
Rearm! msernbly, if it did not contribute to occasion
so fatal an tweet, del not prevent a disruption of
the church in that country. themost serious which
has ever occurred in any church since the Reforrna-
lien. (Ili ar, hear.) At all events the benefit which
is expected of self-regulation and independent legislation,
would Ise dearly purchased, if purchased at the cost of con-
fidence on the part of the people. (Ile ar, hear) Anti
not we
must shut nor eyes against all experience if we do
forefeet this danger, if we believe that it would not
rather foment than allay dissensions. No one can
lament more than I do the existence of sueh divi-
M.P.. No one would be more ready to concur in
any measure that might seem likely
il to remove them.
but, in spite of those divisions, m notwithstanding
its waist of independent action, the church of Eng-
land enjoys the best of all privileges—the means of certain
utefulneo. (Hear, hear.) During the last 30 years she has
founded 1,001 new parishes at home. She has established
20 new episcopal sees in our colonies abroad. She is sup-
porting sehipols--wit, indeed, without assistance, for which
we are moat grateful but still, afi theWrintance, principal instrument
In every village of the land, she is exerting herself, and
succeotully exerting herself, to supple the xpiritual wants
of her increasing population. That she might do more
in if
all her sons were united together in the same mind and
the Same j11110111:11t, lam not prepared to deny. lint I do
not believe that the aomnbling of convocation would be the
mean, of promoting such uuiun, and, therefore, I cannot
agree with the noble lord iu desiring the :assembling of con-
vocation. pear, hear.)
Lord Mt' 'TELTON was glad to find that the present
motion was not, as had been enectedne, one fire ws the
ion. revival of
convocation, but simply to open a general The
feet was. that the whole question of the church required
deliberation, and its relation to the state called for re-ar-
rangement and adjustment. A. an organic body, it could
nut be denied that the church ought to have the power of
regulating her own affairs, so US to meet the course of events,
for he could not agree to the proposition which had been
advanced, that the system of the church of England had
been etenotyped at the Iteformetion, awl did not admit of
any change. It had been will that to make the church a
sell'-regulating body would sacrifice the peace of the church ;
but had we peace at present ? We had not; nor did he see
any chance of peace until the church should in some mea-
sure recover its action.
The Archbiehop of DUBLIN said that, often as he had
brought this question forward, he hail never advisedf
the
the
reetonition of Convocation as the governing body u
church, because he knew that such an mercies of its power
would never he tolerated. The strange anomaly of they're-
sent time was, that if the church were governed at all, it
must be governed by pending not neettoarily members of
it. Titc result wee seen in this—not 13 much that the
governing powers interfered improperly. with the church,
as that, haling their own disqualification for the office,
they refrained from interfeting, and the result was nu
government at all.
The Duke of AILOYLL mid that the rights of self-
government claimed fur the church of England was pos.
14.0.111 br esery organhed Christian body in the world.
Hatertnee had been made in the course of the debate to the
church of Scotland, but lie would never hear a comparison
instituted between the convocatien of the church of Eng-
land and the enteral aoembly of the church to which he
belonged without protesting against it. Great confueion of
ideas seemed to precut as to the übject to be attained, anti
it would be necessary fur those who desired the revival of
convecation to state whether it was the old house of cense-
cation which they wished to bee reinstated, or the establish-1,
no id of eome new tribunal capable of decidiug with autho-
rity on church matter,
The Itiehop of LONDON felt the difficulties which had
been stated by the Archbishop of Canterbury, but thought
them trifling compared with those which must arise, unless
they wire prepared to restore to the church her inherent
right of deliberation. Political and religious nottives
had imlueed the last euppreseim of the conyucation.
lIIY
hirdeleip declared himself dissatisfied with the present nee
stitution of convocation, in which neither the laity nor the
parochial clergy
.were adequately represented, but he am
Mien il couvesattou Reel( as the source whence alterations
should slit:111W. Ullles• tome mai body wen. established, '
he del not know where the.: whu bad the government of
the church were to turn for counsel in the coming emer-
gentler.
Len' NELSON supporteal the motion, and thought that
the time had come fur action upon this all-impurtant sub-

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRWAT, JULY 11.
The S took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' Amendments, in the Birmingham Improve-
ment Bill, were considered and agreed to.
The General Reversionary and Investment Company
Bill, the King's College Hoepital (No. 2) Bill, and the
Llyinvi Valley, and Duffryn Llynvi, and Porthowl Rail-
ways Bill, were read a third time and passed.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
'IC:MARIAN Itereoses.—By Mr. WILLCOX, hem
Southampton, praying that some course be adopted foe the
liberation of Kossuth, and the other Hungarian refugees.
Till eiISr•TAL PALACC.—By Col. MATHESON, ham
Ashburton; Col. WATKINS, from Brecknock, signed by
the mayor and corporation, and most of the inhabitants,
praying that the Crystal Palace may be preserved for such
national purposes as may be deemed etpedient.
Introateetosi or Foaziow Feet:K.—By Lord NAAS,
from millers of the county of Kildare, complaining of a
depression in their trade, and praying for an amendment in
the law regulating the importation of hour.
REOISTRATIoN OF ASSIMANCIDI.—By Mr. T. M. GIB-
SON, from the Manchester Law Association, praying that
certain alterations may. be made in this bill ; Mr. COBDisi EN,
from a benefit society in Liverpool, praying that a provon
for local registration be introduced in the bill.
Tile NAVIOATIOX LAWS.—liy Mr. BOOKER, from the
Shipowners of Dartmouth, Bridgewater,Moutrose, and Mid,
diesborough, complaining of the injurious effects on British
ildp.ping b,y foreign competition since the repeal of the
=option laws.
THE PHARMACY BILL.
Mr. WAKLEY gave notice that, after the reading of
' the order of the day on this bill, he should move that the
Speaker do leave the chair, in order that the bill may he
proceeded with during the present session of parliament.
THE METROPOLIS WATER SUPPLY BILLS.
Sir J. GRAHAM, in reply to on inquiry by Mr. T.
De %coolie, as to whether there was any probability of the
committee on the Metropolis Water Supply billscompleting
its inquiry within sufficient time for the consideration of a
measure for an improved supply of water to the metropolis,
as chairman of that committee, said that besides the govern-
ment hill, four or five other bills had been referred to the
committee, which had not yet been heard, and that the
water question had been found to be intimately connected
with the sewer question. Under these circumstances, ho
could form no conjecture as to the probable duration of the
inquiry;
SPEAKER said he hoped neither the question nor
the answer would be turned into a precedent. Ile thought
that no chairman of a committee ought to state to the house
what the proceedings of a committee were.
Sir J. GRAHAM said if it had been a private bill he
should not have thought it necessary ; but, it being of • '
mind character, he had answered the question.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir J. GRAHAM then, in presenting a petition from
solicitors and proctors against the further progress of the
Registration of Assurances Bill this session, said the second
reading stood for this evening, and he wished to ask the
noble lord whether be intended to take the second reading
that evening, and if it was his intention to press the bill to
its final consummation during the present session of podia-

merit ?
Lard J. RUSSELL replied that it was not his
intention to move the second reading of the bill that even-
ing. lie thought it a bill of such importance that its pro-
visions ought to be stated and captained to the house on
the motion for the second reading, and he had asked his
right hon. friend the Muter of the Rolls, who had kindly
and readily agreed Mmove the second reading of the bilL
He should propose that the second reading should lie taken
on Monday, the 21st instant. Considering the great im-
portance of a measure on this subject—(hear, hear) ;—that
this measure, alter being considered by a commission for a
long time, had puma the House of Lords—and he
hoped he might say, without irregularity, that it had passed
with the general consent of those members of the House of '
' Lords who were learned in the law—considering that it was
a peat public object, it was certainly the intention of the
meat to press the consideration of the bill during
Lvernpresent seaman of parliament. It might be con-
venient that he should now state the course be
Intended to pursue neat week with regard to pub-
lie business. They should take Supply that night, and after
the third reading of the bills nut likey to (
Mondaytesion, they should also take Supply on Re also
proposed to take Supply on Thursday ; anti, it they were I
able to go through with it on Thursday, his right boo.
friend would move on the Friday the third reading of the
Customs Bill, on which occasion the right hon. member for
Stamford had given notice of his intention to make a state-
ment, if not to propose an amendment to the house. lie ,
should not propose, however, that
through the eat
Supply, and therefore it was only in case that the cowed**
at Supply was finished at Thurniiiy that they should pon
with the Customs Bill on Friday_.
THE 'METROPOLITAN COjiMISSION OF SEWERS.
Sir B. HALL asked, with reference to some=
egainst the commissioners, why they had not
re trances addressed to them, and also from What had
Ml.* damages were to be paid?
Lead EURINOTON said there were obviously two sorts
of questions—namely, that which was intended by way of
attack, and that which was intended to elicit information.
He had no objection to answer the questions of the latter
kind, but as all questions were out of order in that house
Ihe should not answer those of the former kind unless upon'
a regular notice of motion. (Hear, bear, " Oh, oh," and
'. Order. )
Ilr. FITZROY asked—Was no member of the govern' 11
omit to give them any information on the subject ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the noble lord 11'.1.1 quite right
in his answer in point of form, but on Monday he (Lord J.
Russell) would state the course government meant to
parsw.
THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION AND TES
INCOMES OF BISHOPS.
Sir R. HALL then rose to ask thc noble lord at the heat
at the peeseallorfitthe questious, of which he had given
Ma% est=ing t e incomes of the bishops; and which
wen MI
The mglissial period liming arrived for the retiekm at episcopal
hits bp the reelelastiad commission, and it appraise by puha- 1
Lpor.4:lAdot Itit.od duress tie ri It FM% tainte.Sif,,ai'
nu.
donna thsQ7 years. the Blshnou'of auhrossr bill re-"
Wool nos Om the ran aniseed to his ape ae set been%
all beie libiebbei the eeelebetleell emeelrebh OW le marl.
It
lassemon _ Ilimearlimuysi relearad7imaseteleels.rukt°lto:h.,7r*ki.7:7o.4.4, trell„....:l6lellhisilLanyer..D.*:o4o6.lmtentess:ll.4l:o;ao.7ll:l
11111.
glitell":07,...721,1128751:1:51•11:111E142"lem"atfr
= sea a—Mt% allg.—.ll=r Ile the latenaleamilratbrr
izisi=langia.,===;.,--fraadtt
et epteempt tam NM preen the Vogel
S:Ella ID (peralo=rilltrobeerles ate,,ll wan
b;S
ees biome boa yen solgael to nee. 1
INNII MOO IRK to the Noma Kw Oohs" they bate
realm' It *dram toes ; iris.—lt wpm Wee pertlamentio7 '
rhl,r....nr.t. Arabia* et Teat le haM:ted to the reele.l
2,3171.; Um Rasp of Ely, 9,2.21.; the
Mop et EL Yoh (eattrithebreabs pest ealeetioat). loall. : 1
ertel.l3,2lll.siam==msbe. iperbellemelearys.m4=No. ,
M. the hen bp to
Obi the sepmet et awe emie-4e sok abobee the melbleatital 1
eemehisa-beleed babe beet perealley be the essevery care
elm bee. eirk It eel, mist MIMI they le tele la aim Om I
the ems= Ma may see be et the enema seem* bah I
mil se reraraerbsl .—Whetteur it Is true thee *a ,
Mao II bee Wowed to the eaembettal emaelseba.
I hat be 111 the property of kb lee le the esamaterkams, 1
sal MOM MlONlthile *isirommignad to kimiee—asel wherther say
ether blihem vie hed reasittel sore than the Waste assigned to
thekr awn, ban Wed ea a puller way.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the house was perfectly aware
that an act of parliament was passed several years ago,
by which the bishops were required to pay certain sum.'
I,cli were beyoud the sums that were assigned as the pro-
per income of their sees, and that other of the bishops were to'
receive certain sums which were proposed to make out the '
Looms of their sees. Such being the case, all those bishops
Mb) receives' from that time their bishoprics were under
des pensions of the act of parliament. Lately a bill passed
wide poosided another mode—namely, that the ecclesiasti-
cal owners should make an arrangement by which
the imeemie it the bishops should neither exceed nor fall
short et dis awn assigned to them, and that was to take
place, he tbraght, in January, 184 S. With regard to these
latter blame, the ecclesiastical commissioners bad teen
canalisispb and were now considering, the means of carry-
irp.......ft_povision and the law into effect, so that the
et Canterbury and the other bishops who re-
miss sees since January, ISiti, will receive exactly
traiMISIIM which parliament had ac.igned to . them.
was
ej
Its the other bishops, as to the propriety or
t, of course it was not a matter on
ha ainall=mi bins speak, but it was quite evident
Hob his Wasp slis received their income under the

ject.
Ilw Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he might have re-
mained silt nt after the speech of the right rev. prelate
tail l him, were it net that he did not wish it to be con-
sidered that the government were indifferent to the great
change which the noble lord opposite appeared desirous to
iatnaluee into the constitution of the church. lie appre-
hended that the early synodical action of the church had
been iiiieund,rstousl by the noble lord who had brought the
motion 'unsaid. It was not until after the Reformation
that CUTOC.I6OIII were at all called upon to pronounce
opinions upon the internal guvernment of the church. Ile
spins headed that if their lordships were to create a body
to &liberate upon the doctrine of the state, it would be a
body quite different to any convocation which had hereto-
fore a ended. The question, then, was, whether the circum-
steno-. of the pvesent times were such as to warrant the
Introduction of so great and new an element in the consti-
tution of the church. lie was not prepared to say, if
lee saw any provect l such new element of obtaining that
unity and peace in the church, which it was not only the
&wire of every member ~f the church to see, but of every
dual subject oleo, that he would not embrace any-
ihang likely to promote so great and desirable an
object. But when he looked at what had been the
history of convueations, and of the meeting of eccle-
eiutical bodies, he had nut that confidence in them
would warrant him to advice the crown to make so
novel an experiment. It was said there were powers in
the crown which might control these bodies and restore
them to tranquillity ; but he put it to their lordships whe-
ther the interference of the crown, brought to bear at a
moment when contending parties were balanced and feel-
ing. were excited to the highest, would tend to restore
peace and regularity ? The only power which the crown
would have would be to prorogue the proceedings, and thus
put a atop to them. Fuels attempts, so feed
e. as he could
gather by consulting history, had signally failed. If he
saw any better mcuu to elicit opinion in the country in
these matters, he would be glad to embrace it ; but, until
be saw a plan more distinctly points d out than that indi-
cated by the noble lord, be cauld not, for one, make
self a party to trying an experiment so large, so new, and
so perilous. (llear. hear.)
The Biehop of OXFORD observed that the noble mar-
quis who had last spoken seemed to think that the convoca-
tions of nun+ past were purely accidental—that they were
originally devised to tan the church, and that it would be a
novelty to the church of England, and totally at variance
with the tranquillity and happy unity which now distin-
guished it, to make a convocation similar to that proposed.
Ile feared that the noble marquis was among those who laid I
the '• flattering unction to their soul" that the administra- j
tion of the church of England was such as to promote its
peace and unity. Ile (the right rev. prelate) did not think
so; and when he contrasted the imaginary evil effects of
the experiment proposed with the real and substantial
danger which be every day saw around him, he failed to
parUcipate in the apprehensions of the noble marquis
who dreaded such serous consequences from the revisal of
convocation. He believed that the great and fundamental
objectors to granting synodical action to the church of
England was based upon want of faith in the divine mis-
sion of the church. He claimed fur *.the English church
from the crown of England the right of assembling when
need should require. The royal word had been repeatedly
pledged to give the church this liberty. But ha would
date back from a time when the crown of England wee not;
and he claimed for the church of England, as the represen-
tative of the Apostolic Synod of Jerusalem. that liberty I
should be allowed to it to meet in convocation. Upon no '
lesser foundation would he rest the question. They had I
been told that night that the convocations of the English
church bad done very little towards setting the articles of
the church. But that was alt the profession of the church

.-ei-.----------
provider of the former act had just ea *much right to them
as
anthat tiseleireulhir be estate
ove i letiiinonptir for life,
le-
feting with these incomes than with any other private
rty. With regard to the. facts, he (the noble lord)
unseat, that generally speaking, the bishops who had
received more than the slur. assigned to them under the act,
bed retained it according to their rights by law. At the
seer time, be should state that the Bishop of Durham was
On exception, because he had paid over a larger sum than
be was compelled to do. It had been supposed, thin if he
gave up 11,0001. &icor, and surrendered aa astalial4oool.
a-year, it would have reduced his reser le=
but he had paid to the commlogiemer OM a
sum of 8,7661., and be had also indeed,' le 111010/1116-
deem his intention to pay a sum of WAIL 1,11111111111
than was specified by the act, so long as be bid eie see.
(Her, hear.) It should likewise be stated *MU sew. ,
!Deeded a bishop whose income was 23,0001. or 24,0001. •
year, and whose charities, and expense a in his diocese,
yin
eluding contributions to new churches, increasing the . I
comes of the poorer clergy and the like were commensurate. I
Thus very considerable demands hail been thrown upon the I
present bishop, and he hail contributed no less a sum that
45,4601. in this way. (Cheers.) The next question of this!
hon. gentleman related to those bishops who were obliged
according to the act to pay over certain sums which it was
supposed would be in ewer upon the incomes assigned to
them. Those biehope generally speaking had complied
with the law, but at the same time there were some who
had received much less than it was expected, and derroe-
I sequence had been, they had been unable to pay ov the
entire sum due from them. Thus the Bishop of Ely was in-1
debted to a considerable amount to the ecclesiastical commie•
sioacrs, but at no time had he received inure than the
income which was assigned to him originally by the oar•
erosionen, and by the act of parliament. The anangelert
made by the commissioners was certainly not to proceed by
law against these prelates, but to inform them from time to
time in what sum they were indebted, and request them to
pay as soon as they could what was due. Ile believed that
the Archbishop of York hail already paid all he owed; and
the Bishop of St. Asaph's had been for sometime angsgedin I
reducing his debt, which in a very short time would be paid I
off. There was every reason to suppose that if the Bishop'
of Ely lived the property of his see would enable him also
to get rid of his debt. (Hear, hear.) The further question
of the hon. gentleman was with regard to the Bishop of
Salisbury. lie was the only bishop whom he (Lord J.
Russell) had seen since his hon. friend had given notice of
his motion; and the right rev. prelate had. put into his
hauls a letter, which he had writtcu in the'
mouth of February last, and in which he proposed to the
the ecclesiastical commissioners that his income should be
in future that which had been assigned to his see by the
commission, namely, 5,0001. a year. The right rev. prelate
hail therefore voluntarily come under the provisions of the
act of parliament. (Hear.) The commissioners had accepted
the premed], and in future he would receive a fixed in-
come, like the archbishop, who was by law under the act.
lie (Lord J. Russell) did not know whether any other
bishop had followed the example, but in the course of time
all the sees would come under the operation of the law.
(lieu, hear.)
MARRIAGES IN INDIA.
Mr. ELLIOT, in reply to Mr. liardcaitle, Mated that
girls in India were often married at 12, and that certainly
could not be taken as a proper age for attaining their
majority. The time fixed by the Muhommeehine was 18,
and the Iliudoue 16, so that it was ]
satdifficut to find an uge
which the customs of the country would ction They
ma therefore followed the English law, seeing that the bill
would apply exclusively to Christians.
PATEIST LAW REFORM.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in reply to Mr. Ric:into,
said the bill on this subject had been must maturely con-,
aidered in the other house, and that accounted for the ,
delay which had taken place in its finding its way into the ,
House of Commons. Ile was afraid that if they postponed '
it still further they would endanger its passing this wesion.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RICARDO would ask the noble lord, then, whether
he would postpone the second reading until the evidence
upon which it was founded had been distributed amongst
the members ?
Lord J. RUSSELL--It is impossible for me to make
such an engimement.
CHURCH BUILDING AMENDMENT BILL.
Lord J. MANNERS understood that there was a clause
in this act fur rendering free scats in churches liable to the
payment of pew rent. lie wished, therefore, to ask when
the adjourned debate on the second reading of this bill
would be brought on, and if it was the noble lord's ire*.
tion to strike out of the bill that objectionable provision ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIiEQUEiIt said the
debate was fixed for Thursday next, and the clause in
question was under the consideration of the government.
TUE QUARANTINE LAWS, &c.
In answer to Mr. URQUHART,
Viscount PALMERSTON said that her Majesty's go- ,
eernment, in compliance with an invitation front I nude,
had agreed to send agents to assist at a conference upon the
subject of quarantine, which would assemble in a few day's'
at Paris. The claims from Greece were settled last year, with
the exception of a claim which was then undergoing inves-
tigation, and which had been made by el. Pacifico on the
subject of some lost documents relating to claims upon Por-
tugal. The house would remember that the principle laid
down had been, that in whatever degree. he (M. Pacifica)
had been prevented by the loss of documents from substan-
tiating a claim upon l'ortugal ; to that extent the Greek
government was bound to indemnify him. That priuciple
was adopted by the governments of Greece and France,
which acted as the mediating power in the matter;
and commissioners were appointed by the three
governments to proceed to Lisboa and investigate
the matter. They had met and gone into a minute en-
quiry ; and they had ascertired that in the archives of the
different departments in Lisbon there still existed either the
originals or copies of the documents in question. Mr.
Pacifico was, therefore, not debarred from prosecuting his
claim, and the three commissioners unanimously agreed to
recommend that on account of the inconvenience and ex-
pense to which he had been put, the sum of 1501. should
be paid him. (Laughter, in which the noble viscount
I joined.) That sum Greece had agreed to pay, and that sum
he would receive. (Renewed laughter.)
COCILT OF CHANCERY AND JUDICIAL COM-
MITTEE BILL.
After a brief conversation, in which Sir U. Wit.-'
tonounr, Lord J. RUIP,ELL, Mr. Ateocr, and Mr.
SLANEY took part, this bill was read a third time and
r passed.
THE BISHOP OF ST. DAVID'S AND SIR
BENJAMIN HALL.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. M. MILNES (who had several times previously in
;. era attempted to introduce the subject) said he was
, authorised by the Bishop of St. David's to give an un-
I qualified contrudietien to a statement made by Sir B. UAL,
' that the bishop had forbidden his archdeacons to visit his
diocese, and he called upon Sir Benjamin to withdraw that
r statement.
Sir B. HALL declined doing any such thing. What he
had said 'FM, that not one of the four archdeacons in that
; diocese had, to his belief, made a single visitation during
the 11 years Dr. Thirlwall had been its bishop ; and he had
ibeen informed by one of the archdeacons that the bishop
himself had prevented him. By that statement he Sir Ben-
jamin) would abide; and he added, that he never saw any
diocese or any place in the United Kingdom in so disgrace-
; ful a condition as the diocese of St. David's.
Mr. MORRIS had never beard any instance of an arch-
;deacon having been prevented from holding an archidia-
tonal visitation in the diocese of St. David's.
,L. !he subject then dropped.
CATHEDRAL TRU STS.—TRE ROCHESTER
l GRAMMAR SCHOOL.
Mr. MOT said he rose to call the attention of the
' house to the case of the Rochester Cathedral Grammar
School, and to move, " that an humble address be presented
1 to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased
to appoint a commission to inquire into and report upon
i the administration of the Educational Trusts confided to
i the cathedral eetablishmentsof the kingdom." The particular
, case he would dismiss in a eery few words. Early
, In 1845, the Rev. Mr. Whistuu, then head mai-
' ter of the Rochester Cathedral Grammar School, applied by
letter to the dean and chapter, under whose more immediate
,
L authority he held his oMev, representing to them that the
, fittings and other ordinary necedaries of the grammar school
were defective, and pointing out that the four exhibitions
attached to the school, which he hoped to make one of the
great inducements to the gentry of the neighbourhood and
. the middle classes to send their sons there, were altogether
unsuitable to the necessities and wants of the parties hold-
lug them. lie pointed out that, although in 1542, when
the school was endowed, in common with the cathedral in-,
stitution, of which it formed a part, the sum of 51. allotted
' to each exhibitioner was amply sufficient, being equal to
, about 501. at the present day, yet that it was now palpably
isedlicient for the purposes for which those exhibit:ler
were originally. established. The dean and chapter replied ,
to the effect that although they admitted the facts to be
substantially correct, he was wrong in the inference drawn
as to the obligation imposed upon them by the statutes.
Mr. Whiston replied by quoting at length and verbatim
various extracts from the statutes oy which the
cathedral and grammar school of Rochester were founded
and endowed by the munificence of Henry VIII. The
dean and chapter cut the matter short by desiring Mr.
Whistoo, as one who wee in their service and employment,
and consequently from whom they had a right to expect
deference and obedience, to close the correspondence. He,
having at heart the welfare of the school, appealed to the
public. He tint made some further efforts to arouse the
dean and chapter to a sense of their duty; and, amongst
other steps. he submitted a came to the then Attorney-Ge-
neral, Sir John Remaly, and another eminent lawyer, Mr.
Lewis, inviting their opinion as to the construction of the
statutes. Finding, single-handed and powerless as he was,
that he was unable to gain any advantage from that wealthy
body, he ultimately published a work, entitled, " Cathedral
Trusts and their Fulfilment," having for its object to arouse
the attention and invite the sympathy of the public on be-
half of a cause so well advocated, and its interference be-
tween himself and the Dean and Chapter of Rochester.
For this offence, as they were pleased to term it, they
dismissed him from his ogee, alleging that a man ca-
pable of making statements reflecting so grossly upon the
character of the clergymen composing the dean and
chapter of Rochester was altogether unworthy to be
trusted with the inetruction of heirs at that grammar school.
Such a conclusion as that woe:. altogether depend on the
truth or otherwise of the facts put teeth in the rev. gentle-
-1 man's work, and on the spirit its which he commented upon
1 those facts, supposing them to be true. If any obloeuy
I attached to the dean and chapter, it was simply because the
facts were true and undoubted, and not because of any

to Qe 10d. Ely, which had no less than scholars in t.
16th century, had some years ago only ono scholar.
Pcterbomngh had 20, and Rochester had either 18 or 20--
making in the whole 212 free scholarships, and between 50
and 60 exhibitioners to the universities. 1 here were, besides,
21 scholars at Chester; 20 at Bristol; 20 at Carlisle, where
a few years ago the school was shut up altogether; and 20
at Gloucester. The whole number to be provided for by
the statutes of these eleven cathedral bodies was 296, and
about 56 exhibitioners. Such a provision as this could not
possibly he overrated in the present day, when the want
of education was so much felt. Had the cathedral bodies
carried out their trust ? The hon. gentleman then referred
to the opinions of the present Muter of the Rolls, and of
Mr. W. D. Lewis, the equity-dreftsman, in answer to the
19nestions proposed by Mr. Whitton, the head master of the
I Rochester grammar school, as to the conduct of the dean
and chapter of Rochester with regard to that school. Those
two eminent equitable authorities stated their opinion to be,
that the dean and chapter were obliged to apply a sufficient
port:on of the cathedral revenues in supporting and educe'.
tog boys in strict accordance with the directions of the'stu
totes of Henry VIII ; that those statutes obliged them to
maintain and educate twenty boys at school, and four at
the university. They were of opinion that no desuetude
could constitute a valid plea for the non-observance of the
original statutes. They were of opinion that the grant was
made in pi/ am et perpetual?' demos y /tam. They were also of
opinion, that, as the rents of the cathedral estates increased,
a pro mid increase should be made in the allowance of the
boys and exhibitioners ; that the bishop of the diocese was
usually the proper party to whom to appeal in case of re-
fusal on the part of the dean and chapter to carry into effort ,
the direction of the statutes; and that, if he did not correct
the abuses complained of, the matter should be submitted tot
the Court of Chancery. The dean and chapter, out of the
increased rents of the cathedral estates, had increased their
stipends thirty-four times beyond the stipends allowed by
the original charters. They hail successively decreased the
allowances to the grammar school, until at last in 1839 there
was no school at all. They pulled down the building and
sold the site. Some short time after that, being alarmed at
the inquiries which were set on foot on the subject, they built
another school. They dismissed Mr. Whiston, alleging that
he had used language in relation to their management of
the cathedral funds which rendered him unworthy to occupy
the position of master of the grammar school. But, if the
pamphlets which Mr. Whitton had published were examined,
it would be seen that he had not brought any charge
the dean and chapter which was not capable of
proof. Had Mr. Whiston applied in the first instance to
the Distill of Rochester, as visitor of the Rochester school,
he need have entertained little hope of obtaining from
that right rev. prelate a condemnation of the proceed-'
ings of the dean and chapter, seeing that the bishop
himself, whilst filling the office of Dean of Worcester,
had been guilty of conduct, with respect to the
Worcester school, similar to that alleged by Mr.
Winston against the Dean and Chapter of Rochester. I
The Dean and Chapter of Rochester had to deal with a man',
who would not allow so great a wrong to pass in silence.
Mr. Whiston therefore appealed to the public, having been
dismissed by the dean and chapter. The dean and chapter I
abstained from putting in their opinions of the counsel,'
which they said they had. They met him upon technical,
ground, namely, that after an appeal to the bishop he ought
to have appealed to the visitor—a mere formal objection
put forward to harvest • poor man who could not well
contend against the Dean and Chapter of Rochester. He
thought it desirable that the facts should be placed beyond
doubt. He held in his hand a paper, showing the value
of the endowmrnt in 1542 and 1849. The value in 1542 was
2,5471. in Canterbury' the present value was 84,5251. The
cathedral income of Canterbury, in 15.62, was 3001.; in
1849, 2,0301. In Rochester, at the former period, 101.;
in 1840, 1,4261. The Bishop of Rochester was not merely
an interested party, but had committed himself so far that
he could not be regarded as an impartial judge between the
bishop and the dean and chapter. He would cite the oaths
of the deans and canons of cathedrals. [The hon. gentleman
then cited the oaths.] The dean swore, in effect, he would
keep the oaths and ordinances of Henry VIII. The canon
swore he would also keep those ordinances and statutes of
Henry VIII., and see that they were kept by others, es
far as in him lay. Offices had been suppressed in the
cathedral of Rochester amounting to one-tenth more than.'
the whole income of the prebendary, putting the money I
into their own pockets. In Trinity College, Cambridge,
the students were only allowed 31. 18e. 4d. originally,
but those allowances were raised to 611. Winchester,
Etou, Durham, and Westminster had proportiemsk
raised the original endowments. A prebend of Cram►
bury who censured Mr. Whiston was in possession of a
yearly income of 6,2171.55. from Canterbury and other liv-
ings, showing that he was not indifferent to pecuniary con-
siderations As to the Dean and Chapter of Rochester.
they had set apart for themselves the funds provided for the
students. The annual value of the livings of the Dean and
five Canons of Rochester was 7,7401., exclusive of 4,4301.
the value of their own prebendaries, and many extras.
They received large sums on account of a hospital,
the funds of which they had appropriated. One of the pre-
bends had taken 1001. a-year for one of his sons as an exhi-
bition at the Rochester school. He hoped no member of
the government—he could scarcely suppose that any of them
would—oppose the motion. He had moved for various'
papers connected with the ecclesiastical commission, but
was referred by Sir George Grey to Mr. Goulburn. Arl6olllll
as he was to obtain those papers, he could not refer to Mr.
Gonlburn, who was the salaried officer, and hired advocate,
of the ecclesiastical commission. He (Mr. Goulburn) re-
caved 1,0001. • year for explanations in that house—stop-
ping, or endeavouring to stop, the mouths of any members
who complained of an abuse of an ecclesiastical nature, or
of which the ecclesiastical commission had cognisance.l
He would ask any man who felt an interest in the people of
this country whether this was a matter of indifference ?

II ;rata
that a
ny wheerhade of fought
wdumping it h i s dau :Tat on c
tem a kret
4. Tt
hhaet
fliiallerebtwenothadtbethgreeteattsinstit
atdunntionstagnrnificently endowed, and Ito the Lest account. The only objection he had Moral icy
have flowed from them, , the risk of fire attendant on the use of the nee. a ire f
ps,.
owed *th f lightingb thh ht h • . • * '
I body, that any comment was superfluous. This ease was of • entice What a stimulus they ! cautions nughtbe taken against the possibility et .as an ~t.
necessity mixed up with the question of the administration exhibitions to the unive •
without touching on the grammar schools connected with munity. The hon. member concluded by .
plated as they were in every cathedral town, endow wi ratio or ;u e t oug tat very suite o rat
other cathedral bodies. The preamble to the general humble address be presented to her Majesty to appoint. a !
statutes regulating cathedrals stated, amongst other things, comm
that these bodies had been founded and endowed Inc of the educational trusts confided to the cathedral cstab t
them to all classes of the corn- i and, to reduce the danger to its lowiat ;,,,,,,
moving that an ' they might only allow the duplicates to be USed.
1 adr• a.:WART tlapprovedof
. grea y
member for Oldham Mr• Fox but t
ission to inquire and report upon the administration the hon. ,. • ), le, ight that
lish- ' there should be several libraries formed in London. The
proposal of the hon. gentleman would make, however, an
excellent beginaing. (Hear, hear.) There had been tares
public libraries founded in Paris, ltouen, Amiees, and, se
f tight proceed feu. iia
g the I) a"7
eat
of educations] trusts by the cathedral bodies of the kingdom might have given to education amongst the higher and ,They
,u.
gmightehrtmfotribus
satanideet,hetakheonr.oommcms
hentrufrortl(iimaahlamna rad
generally ; and it was impossible to treat of this single case middle classes, and through
those purposes :—" That youth might be liberally trained, i menta of this kingdom. (Hear, hear.)
aid age provided with things necessary for living, Mr. HOUSMAN ecconded the motion.
that thero might be liberal largesse' of alms to The question having been put,
the poor—for the repairs of roads and bndges--and that The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that he had no doubt , they sometimes found a ray o
other offices of piety might thence flow abroad far and wide of the purity of motive with which his hon. friend brought ' unexpectod quarter, even by ope in Rome.
to all the neighbouring places, to the glory of Almighty forward the present proposition, but whilst he admitted ( u
God, and the common welfare and happiness of the subjects that, he thought his hon. friend on the other hand should Sir R. I. .
of these realms." The words of the Rochester statutes have shown more forbearance in considering the motives of . stated the principal objection to opening the reieling r raft
plainly showed that the grammar school boys, and the four others. (Hear, hear.) His honourable friend rested at night, namely, the danger of flee. But that was by re
exhibitioners, had a claim upon the foundation for their his case entirely on the facts connected with the means the only reason why they should not adopt the pre,
" 'ostentation," in the words of the statutes. In page 89, Dean end Chapter of Rochester. (No, no.) The hon. pout. In the first place there was the me iise gkt,
it was stated, "We ordain that there shall be for ever, in gentleman had not given more than ten minutes of his would be caused by the larger staff that wou,a er raluir..l.
the founder's church at Rochester, 20 poor boys maintained speech to the consideration of the other educational trusts. He (Sir R. Inglis) should be glad, however, to st.e tee, ~,.
out of the cathedral revenues." That was repeated in the I and he confined himself almost entirely to Mr. whiston's three large public libraries of a humbler but more pews Hi
1
statutes half-aolozen times, in one shape or another. A work—a book containing much valuable information, but character established. (Cheers.) Still ho must obj. ,
bowlines further was the following: "We will that thews disfigured, he must add, by an admixture of sharp reproba- the removal of the duplicates into a separate library. • ..
boys be maintained,or have their alimony at the cost of our tion. (Hear hear.) Re regretted that Mr. Winston did of them were often in Use at the same time, awl in .• ,
church at Rochester." In page 10, again, it spoke of those not confine himself) to the facts as far as they were facts. they could not be removed without the violation of • , .....,
boys as " them who are la:detained at the charge of I But without going into that question, and continiag himself and bequests. It would, for instance, be aLe a h
oar church." At page 96, they were spoken of as " the to the motion of his bun. friend, his first and greatest ob- of the public faith to remove a book from em
boys learning the grammar, and having their victuals or jeetion to that motion was that it was founded on a matter library_of George 111. because a copy of it happened I.)
living given them fur nothing." Subsequently, in page 107,1 which was now really in course of adjudication before be in Mr. Bentham's. (Hear, hear.)
it spoke of "the four students or scholars tent with exhibi- another and a competent tribunal. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Mr. STANFORD had visited all the public Ulmer, in
lions to the two universities." It said, "We ordain that Whiston had brought the question before the tribunals of Europe and bad read in those at Paris, Dresden, end may
out of the funds of our church four poor scholars be always the country, but they decided that the proper course other capitals ; and his impression was that the aecentrae
maintaiued in our universities." -The revised cathedral was to apply to the Bishop of Rochester, as visitor. dation in London was much inferior to any of the rest.
statutes of Elizabeth, confirming those in all essential His honourable friend might have seen in the or- Mr. M. MILNES complained of the ventilation at the
points, had these words, in reference to the same subject : diary
channels of information that the bishop, feel- British Museum, and thought that ;mullein:: more mia -.
• Moreover, we ordain that out of the whole number of the ing that he might be incompetent to decide on the have been done to improve it. He hoped that the r . -..a.
grammar boys who have their sustentation in our church, grave legal questions involved in the can, had called mendations of the commission with respect to the in a.
there be for ever maintainedof those who have made greater to his assistance the high legal authority of Baron Parke. tent of the institution would be complied with.
regress than the rest—where 50 scholare, 10 students; (Hear, Rear) lie could also have the advice of Dr. Lush- commission certainly did not expect their report woo.
where 40 scholars, there 8 students; where 24 scholars, ington, as chancellor to the see of Rochester, and, there- as so much waste paper. (Hear, hear.)
there 4 students; where 18 scholars, there 2 students in our fore, his hon. friend might feel satisfied that the case leas Mr. SLANEY expreued his gratitude to the lion. b.,- •
univenity at Cambridge, and the same number at Oxford, in good hands. (Hear.) His next objection to the mo- for his recommendation that two or three libraries' s!
to whom let the usual stipend be raid annually, for six tion was that the position which the legeslaature had taken be established in London.
years, unless they shall have gained a fellowship en any of had rendered a motion for an inquiry into the educational Mr. ANSTEY complained that a gentleman wl, . .;
the colleges." Again, in the 2oth chapter ot the Elizabethan trusts confided to the cathedral establishments of the king- interested lathe navigation of the Medway, hail ave..
statutes, relating to the duties of the dean, were these torn quite inappropriate at the present time. First of all, see some maps in the Museum, whereupon two re .11..1 ;
words : " Let him also look after the health of those boys, the Court of Chancery, in which all questions relating to bags, labelled " not to be opened," were handed t ;
whose liberal bringing up, both in learning outlet the table, trusts, if trusts they were, were investigated, was the pros It appeared that these hail been fastened up atom t. . ..;
wo committ to his honour." It was to be regretted per tribunal to go to. If the question related not to the ago, in consequence of an order or suggestion It . ..
that the founder had not provided a better security administration of the funds but to the regulation of a par- Home-office, to prevent, as one of the officers to a ..
for the Theirnt of his wishes than this frail ticular school, the appointment of masters, and so gentleman applied for an explanatiou, surmised ie. .. r.
reliance. resh statutes of Charles let and 2nd forth, the proper and competent authority to apply to was anion by the a Tench. (A )augh.)
were to the same effect. These were again ratified by act the visitor. There was, therefore, nothing really left far Sir R. INGLIS assured the hon. gentleman tll a ;tat
of parliament, 6 Anneacap. 21, confirming the rights of the a commission to do. When the question of the regulation was not the case. An action had been brought aa ,•...e
boys and repeating the very words of the statute. The of the new
thenfoundatios was before parliament the legisla- the rights of the crown, and, at tho suggestion of i'lti
Burin= statute contained the following :" We direct turd decided that surplus should be appropriated to the alaster-General of the Ordnance, the maps had la, a,. ,;,i
and ordain that there be foi ever in the said church one relief of spiritual destitution, and they made no provision up in order to prevent those rights from tieing assaii..l..
dean, 12 prebendaries, 12 minor canons, 1 dea
con,c 1 sub- that any part of it should be applied to the education of the Lord J. RUSSELL said that several of the mown, .. 'a-
deacon, 10 clerks, 1 master of the choristers, ch, people in the various educational establishments as con- tions of the commieeion had been complied mall, lea .• ear
2 teachers of the boy? in grammar, and 18 boys to be in- meted with the established church. lie thought it would not thought advisable to adopt the whole report .a, ..„ 0
greeted in grammar. The words of the Canterbury sta- have been very wise to have done so, but the legislature did Neverthelese, it was a most valuable doeumena ei 2ii
rates were similar, the number of scholars varying. lie not take that course. By the 3& 4 Viet., c. 113, the in- would be resorted to from time to time, es occasion s. --iitel
would now cite the partof the Rochester statutes allotting comes of all deans, of every prebend in every cathedral of to render proper. With respect to the suggestion :arm to
precise amounts to each of these classes •.—" The dean is to the kingdom was fixed, so that neither deans, prebends, establishment of new libraries, he had himself, when (ea.
have 1001. ; 6 prebendaries, each to have 20/. ; 6 minor or canons was any pecuniary interest in the question. A IV. presented the royal library, recommended that it.1..,3
canons, each 101. ; the master of the grammar school to provision was introduced in the 49th section, protecting the not he added to the Museum, but that it shou'al mien a
have 131. Gs. 81. ; the master of the choristers, 10/. • the rights of grammar schools according to the customs then in separate institution. (Hear, hear.) It was quite trit.• :',..,t,
second grammar master, 61. lls. 10d. • '2O grammar 'boys, force. Having the greatest respect fur Mr. Whiston, he must compared with towns on the continents, a.. .ti ii „it
each to be allowed 21. 139.4 d., or inall g3l. 61.8 d.; 4 students say that that gentleman's pamphlet was the pamphlet of an make a very good figure as regarded public librai,,, :Alt
at Oxford awl Cambridge, each 61. 13s. 4d., or '261.133.4d." advocate, and having in view his hon. and learned friend the subject should have his best attention.
These sums, though small in the present day, ',Mot' about opposite (Mr. It. Palmer) who was the advocate on the Mr. HUME said that if there was to be no change i a !Ito
16 times the value in 1542, and thus formed an adequate other side, he must also declare his conviction that there governing power, ho should no longer agree to the vala It
remuneration to the respective officers. The house must wits another aspect of the case. ()ear, washe Court was necessary to have a small executive bo inst. el ,i a
etombetarketouthkeimt
oanneagdeamyc;nant,
dbuant
oittbcbraii,lueoetv,,
rt. ~.t.
admit that the fact contended for by Mr. Whist= as to the of Chancery had, in fact, decided that there no trust numerous commission. A committee - ••i le
wadil,l4llll.. ~. _s_
construction of the statutes was established—that the en- fixed on this property, and that the only course was to refer
yea
n d r onea g e
m'
dowment of henry VIII. in 1542 made express provision, the matter to the visitor.
Ilbremost among other things, and only second to the more Mr. BERNAL observed that ?de. ?dowatt had used Mr. Lord J. RUSSELL defended the comnti.rion, r, aem
important spiritual objects contemplated, for the train- Whiston's ease only as an illustration of the general subject. the charge that no reliance was to be placed upaa aaie
ing and education of youth. The educational trust Ile agreed that that ease was sub judice, and therefore attendance. The commissioners comprised anon,: •ha
was, beyond all question, contemplated 33 one of ought not to be brought before that house ;but there were rest such men as Mr. Hallam, Mr. aLwaul, v. aa D.
the most important committed to the care of these bodies. other matters of the greatest importance, which imperatively Dundas, and Lord Mahon, and in them the )untie is. At
Though he had specified the Rochester ease particularly, called for the interference of the government, since they have the most eutire confidence. (Hear, licara '
his facts and arguments applied to all similar trusts. The gave a handle to those who sought to bring a scandal upon Mr. HUME disclaimed the intention of ea,,tinc any ta.
charters were in the form of deeds of trust, requiring them the church. fiections upon the committee ; he lead only .r,ru,',C :sat
to undertake the care of the schools, which was then, as Mr. MILNES supported the motion, thinking that the their other occupations rendered it imposeibli: t., p.a. i ; ...er
now, thought a subject of vital importance. The effect of case of Mr. Winston was a hard one, that the conduct of attention to the Museum. Lord Seymour, for in:: ~,ea,
12 or 13 trained grammar-schools upheld by these cathedral the dean and chapter had been characterised by extreme was a member of eighteen boards. What was a ani. I •,,a8
bodies, would, were the trusts properly executed, form a harshness, and that the whole case was highly deserving a few persous who should be there from Mundav :sr..' •
nucleus inult,
all the large towns whence the minty eneficial the consideration of the house. to Saturday night.
effects would flow. The cathedral of Canterbury was re- Mr. R. PALMER said, nothing was so much to be la- Mr. lIENLkIY hoped that the trustees would ex ply
quired to provide sustentation for ay boys,for which 4/. each, mented as the making motions involving general proposi- authentic information as to the numbers ay.aliu4 tli•m-
or about 60/. at the present day, was allotted. Those tions the occasion of personal attacks upon individuals who selves of the privilege of reading at the Museum.
boys, in the school at Canterbury, had been cut had not an opportunity of replying to them. The attack Sir IL INGLIS said the number was near 4u,efie• and
down from 4/. to It. Bs. 4d. Westminster had funds, and made upon the Dean sod Chapter of Rochester was the the number of numbers year exceeded 70.05 i. Owe
was enjoined to provide for 40 boys. It had carried more unreasonable because the law as well as long prac- third of the whole of the books had bets ce ami ten
Out to a great extent the intention of the founders, lice had sanctioned' the offences imputed to them. If Mr. or referred to.
although of late years it had levied 3,5001. from the Mowatthad confined his motion to the general policy of the Mr. STANFORD said the number just statist w,. ar.
boys on the plea of extending the building. Worms- cathedral statutes, or the reform of cathedral schools, the rived at by multiplying the uumber in one dit 'a• the
'tee had reduced the stipend of its 40 boys from 21 131 4d discussion ht have been of considerable service. number of days, but they were chiefly the eauu pi ;eau
.. . • . . . • • • .
-ewe e - •- the Me. HU ' the motion. Reformers must bit and he adhered to hi, opinion that there 34.33 out lee,
.. - ' 1,000 different persons.

After a tow words from Mr. 11ENLEr and Mr. 0. H.):
GAN,
The vote was agreed to, as were the following :
81,7211. fur new buildings at the British Museum
30001. expenses incurred by the trustees in the path;
of antiquities.
On this vote,
Mr. J. B. SMITH referred to the discoveri—
Layard, and wished that the government had
niggardly-

justified
the blot where they found it. Mr. Whiston had been most
unjustly used, an& when it was manifest that funds had
been misapplied, every friend of the church should be anx-
ious for inquiry.
Lord J. RUSSELL said ho should decline to enter at
all into the particular case at Rochester ; but, supposing
that government was disposed to entertain this question,
there was a question which it behoved the house seriously
to consider. There was an inquiry begun by a
commission appointed during the short administration
of Sir Robert Peel. That committee was coati- i
nued, with some alteration of members, some years
afterwards: it made some reports, and he had the honour of
bringing in a bill founded on those reports, and which he
wassucceaaful in carrying. He thought it was in their very
first report that those commissioners specially pointed out
the spiritual destitution in populous parts of the coun-
try, as an evil which it was their bounden duty to inquire
into. Parishes which had originally, perhaps, a thousand
people, had increased to 30,000 or 40,000, and they referred
to the population of Middlesex, and Yorkshire, and Lanca-
shire, and showed the amount of churches. They were of
opinion that whatever other evils there might be this was
the primary evil, and that until they hail remedied this evil
they should not make other changes. Whether the coin-
missiouers applied themselves to the remedy sufficiently he
would not inquire now, but their principle and their view
was to obtain funds for the purpose of remedying this
spiritual destitution. For that purpose they applied •
portion of the cathedral property, and they abolished sips-
cure rectories. That at all events was a clear and definite
view. Of course there would be a difference of opinion as
to the mode of carrying it into effect, but it was a clear and
definite view of that which they should do with regard to
church reform. When it carne into that house, some members
said, " Let us rather reform the cathedral establish-'
menu, do not let us cut them down so as to make them
unlit for their original purpose, but look to their ori—
ginal purpose, and restore in all its vigour and efficiency the
cathedral system which has been lost sight of by neglect
and the abuses and malversations of former times." When
that proposal came before the house there was a discussion
upon it, and some speeches were made in its favour, but on
a division there were very few members who took that
view, land the bill passed with the view that he
bad stated. It was the business of the commission
—ho would not say how well or how far they hail
carried that recommendation into effect, but they cer-
tainly were at liberty to take into consideration in the
first place the spiritual wants of the perish from which any
funds were to be derived for this purpose. But with regard
to the other object, that of restoring cathedral establish-
ment& and giving larger sums to any schools that might be'
attached to them, and giving the sums which were to be
derived from cathedral property to the more efficient este-
bliahment of cathedral education, to the appointinga large
body of canons and attending to the wants of cathedral cities,
that was neither recommended by the commission, nor was
it adopted by parliament. He thought when they came to
the discussion of this question, it would be for parliament 1
if they reversed that policy, to reverse it with a full view of
the consequeuces. If they meant that the church revenues
were required mainly for the division of these larger
parishes into smaller districts, for the erection of new
churches, and for the endowment and stipends of the
clergy, they would go on with the present policy. If, on
the other hand, they thought it better to restore the cathe-
drals to what was supposed to be the ancient policy in
founding them, and in doing that to reform them, and adopt
a scheme for their better management, that was a course
which they might pursue • but it' they took this last course
they must not expect to ;Ake the other, and they must re-
nounce the object which the commission and parliament had
I kept steadily. before them. This he begged to state, that
' the house might know that such would be the question be-
fore them. He did not wish to enter at all into the ques-
tion whether or net the dean and chapter of Rochester be-
haved properly in this matter, whether they were bound by
the ousting customs of the cathedral, or whether they
abased any power they might possess. That question was
I IK4 in a state in which the House of Commons could pro-
-I•ounce an opinion ; it was a question which was to be heard
by the bishop in conjunction with Mr. Baron Parke, and
11 Wail their decision was made he thought the House of
'Commons should not come to a premature division.
Mr. HAYWARD and Mr. Mowart having briefly spoken,
The motion was negatived without a decision.
The house then went into committee of supply.
The first vote was 46,8241. for the expenses ui maintain-
ing the British Museum.
Mr. HUME said the government had recommended that
the museum should be managed by a small executive com-
mittee, instead of by 30 trustees, as at present, and he
thought it would be well to carry thatrecommendation into
effect.
Sir R. INGLIS said in 1835 there were 230,000 volumes
in the library. There were now nearly twice as many, and
he believed there was no library in Europe which was open
so many hours in the day, and so many days in the year.
Last year the institution was visited by no fewer than
1,000,000 persons, whose behaviour was of the most irre-
proachable character. (Hear, hear.) The space in the
library would not contain the increase of books which the
next three years would produce, and he hoped the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would take that into consideration.
Mr. W. J. FOX suggested that the reading-room should
be opened in the evening. (Hear, hear.) There were
hundreds and thousands of young men in the metropolis
who desired this so earnestly that if the expense were the
only obstacle to the granting of their desire they would
most cheerfully contribute towards defraying the cost. They
were persons whose occupations prevented them from at-
tending during the day time ; bat they were a class really
addicted to study, and would not treat it as a mere lounge.
Such an alteration in the arrangements of the library was
calculated to turn the great literary riches at their disposal

TILE EDUCATIONAL GRANT.
150,0001. for the purpuues of education in Engle

Lord J. RUSSELL, in proposing this vote, sa,,l wi,
had been expressed lest year that some gent nil staff fur
should be laid before the house as to the distribution et
grant, and the results produced as regarded the extol-.
education. In the absence of his right hue. fret
Home Secretary, through illness, he proposed to lac
statement before the committee. 'This grad
been first voted in 1833, when it was is
than 20,0001. ; in 1838 a great change had been m ele
wit
regard to the mode of distributing the sum voted by ;salt
' meat. The appointment of a committee of coune.,
wl
proposed in that year, when it was agreed that tle y snoul
have the distribution of the sum voted, and deei, i this
time to time make minutes with reference to the ai ,il.O
that distribution. This change involved these conw.pi. aces
while the Treasury had considered it their duty. ar..i vet
properly so, not to consider the claims of different i
the country any further than as they proposed to e•of'xibui
the requisite sums, and sonliusid themselves to Aril
business of granting to the National Society :did utho
bodies; such sums as were voted by. parliament. 1 c eaff
mittee of l'rivy Council had taken into their efaisf.i eatk
various other questions alkcting education, and h.. i fee
time to time proposed such improvements as they .!,14/1
fit. Very considerable sums had been voted by p.a.•.unei
in these various ways. There had been voted in earl
period he had mentioned, 120,0001. which had 1,,,n di
poised by the Lords of the Treasury. Sin"
1t
8e 00001. had been voted, and nearly
had been actually distributed. The balause w
99,5861. ; the estimate fur the present y' u *
186,3801. ; and it was proposed to take a vote in l ATOt
The balance that would then remain in the heeds of tl
privy council, supposing the estimate to be a cornet ou
would be about 63,2001. It wits thought twit'," th
there should be a considerable balance, in unlit° Si
fuJ
the engagements which the committee of council had II
tered into, and of which payment might be ',vend.
must be recollected that these sinus reprisented forth
and larger sums which had been contributed by lais
means. That part of the expenditure which was ior
purpose of erecting school-houses and buildings fa file,
tion was only a part of the sum rttplifill for that polo.,
proportion to the sum laid out, and therefore ter, -i
much larger sum. Of late years a new pdais id be
adopted, which went fur beyond the original scheme. of
committee of council, founded upon a Consideniti,a
wh
he believed a perfectly just one, that the way is
aLch
public funds would be made most available was by
creasing the quantity but by improving the
education in general. For that purpose, it s, e
posed to give stipends to pupil w
teachers —0 a
mint in certain cases the salaries of InOhri
had received certificates of merit, to puck,: be
and maps to bo afterwards sold to schoels at •
prices, to give annual grants for exhibitions 1r tr.,
trig schools, and likewise something toward. self
of industry. These purposes had been so?: w.
attended to, and there were at present no t.'
670,000 persons who, in one or other of these i.e,ato
were receiving annual payments from the des
Parliament. bo tar as this scheme had been tai. llt
been very beneficial ; especially the plan of
teachers, and thus bringing young men forware 0 ic,
schoolmasters, had been of great use. The rfperfs
by the inspectors showed the advantages w hail
suited from this plan. The noble lord read extracts Ir
the reports of the Rev. Mr. Moseley, Mr. Norris,
cell, and other inspictors, and then observed tha:
duction of the pupil teachers and the reward'
not only had an immediate effect upont the young, u,7,4 1
greatly encouraged
a kthedminfiLencemon futurete p‘are•;• I
relations. It had been observed to give a•it'
new interest with regard to the schools, sad
subject in genera:. The people had a just pride iu linos
the distinction their children would obtain, and thus
seeds of education were disseminated among a en:"
deserving class of the people. (Hear, hear.) With r•-.l'
to the other objects of the grant, the auenuotation
salaries, and the annual grant for exhibitions, he 'eelic
they had been extremely useful. They ought not to
satisfied with the return of large number, of clear:
attending school, while the quality of the education w
inferior that noat impression was made, and
deal of time, monegre y, and attention was Wor•hAl,
wt
producing any adequate effect. 'There was still the
In the country districts, that the children Wens tales •
from the schools at much too early a period. (Heat, 11,
No less than 35 per cent. of the children in the sehods
;
under seven years of age ; 62 per cent. were undir 10
not quite 8 per cent. were above 12. It was dillicat to -
pose that children taken from school so early could re
what they hail learned, unless there were some
Si
keeping up what they had acquired before theywer,
peen of age, it was very likely that these seed.ul
islc
entirely. dispersed, and we should not has
isitanated population, though there might lw
member of children under instruction. He could not
any sufficient remedy for this at present. It was
almost
emtable that persons earning only, a few shilliugs a ao
and having the opportunity of increasing it e 1 fiat

einult.