The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-19 00:00:00

''A7',i DIEMEN'S LAND.

In answer to Mr. EWART,
Sir G. GREY said, it was not intended that transporta-
tion to Van Diemen's Land should be resumed and carried
on as it had exibted before, or to resort to the system of
chained gangs.--In answer to further questions, the right
hon. baronet was understoed to say, that it was oot intended
to make Van Diemen's Land a general receptacle for con-
victs, prior to their being distributed in other colonies. But
regulations were in progress, of tho effect of which he could
not now precisely speak.
ODD FELLOWS.
Lord D. STUART, in answer to • question from Dr.
HOwalso, said he was doubtful whether to take up the bill
sent down from the Lard*, the Provident Associations Fraud
P lion Bill. It related to a large and influential body,
the odd fellows, whose lodges numbered above 200.000 mem-
ben ; indeed, he believed there were many odd fellows in
that house. (Great laughter.) It was a body of great int.
penance, and one which tendril to the promotion of morality
and good order. He should, therefore, have been anxious
to press the bill which had been sent down from the Lords,
had he believed that it would meet the wishes of the body
generally ; but flailing fr m the communications which Lad
been made to him that this was not the ease, he should move
that the order for the committee on the bill, which stood for
this day, should be discharged.
The order was accordingly discharged.
CHANCERY PROCEEDINGS REGULATION BILL
AND CHARITY TRUST REGULATION BILL.
In answer to Mr. Tuaxan'
Lord J. RUSSELL at eted that he Ind consulted the
LordChaneellor on the subject, and found tha: be attached
very great importance to the Charity 'lnuits Regulation Bill;
and he had hoped that there would not be any serious appo-
sition to the bill being proceeded with. But as the hon.
gentleman said it would require considerable discussion, a,.d
was likely to occupy much time, he (Lord J. Russell) was
not disposed to press it. (Lieu, hear.) With regard to the
other bill, about which the hon. gentleman bed inquired, the
Chancery Proceedings Regulation Bill, he had no hesitati
in saying that it would be withdrawn.
Mr. HUME hoped the last clause, at least, which con-
tained a most important provision, would be pressed.
Lord J. RUSSELL sail that, at this period of the session,
he could not undertake to prear through any measure of
that kind, which he knew would give rise to groat discu-sion
and opposition.
AUSTRALIA.
Mr. HAWES, in answer to Mr. F. Scott, said that he '
hoped to be able, early in the neat session, to lay on the
table of the house a bill establishing a constitution in the
Australian colonies.
EVICTIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. P. SCROPE asked if government was in possession of
any information as to some recent evictions, and the pulling
down of 500 houses, in the county Mayo ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE replied in the negative, and said
he did not think it was in the power of the government to
lay before the house any information of an official nature;
they had not the means of procuring official returns on this
subject.
DISEASED SHEEP.
la answer to a question from Mr. WOORROTIBII,
Mr. LABOUCHEEE stated that communication from
our consuls abroad had been very recently received on the
• tubject of diseased Ono. He had directei that the papers
should be prepared, and they would immediately be laid en

the table of the house. In answer to abetter remetioz, he
stated that the hill on this subject, now before the house,
tre-
served the rights of the City of London, but that
would in no degree interfere with the jurisdiction conferred
by this bill on the government in London and thewbere.
MR. O'CONNOR AND THE LAND SCHEME.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS Lela be had given notice of certain
questions which he meant to put to the hon. member for
Nottingham; but learning that those questions had been
put on • former evening and satisfactorily answered, he
would not repeat them, Ile wished, however, to ask the hon.
member if it was true, as stated is the Examiner newepsper,
that he derived a considerable profit frum printing the rules
and regulations of the society ? (Order, order.)
Mr. O'CONNOR teat, but
The SPEAKEIt said the hon. and learned member ought
not to answer the question. It was contrary to the rules of
the house fo: any hon. member to put a question to another
touching the profita he derived from any source.
Mr, O'CONNOR persisted in saying that he hd not de-
rived, and could not derive, any profit that
the source indi-
cated.
VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
On the motion that tee Speaker shoeld leave the chair, to
go into committie of supply,
Mr. CIIRISTY codes to call the attention of the house to
the prop se l grant of Vancouver's Liana to the nudeows
Bty Company. He considered that bci,re any such grant
was made to the company
the claims of the settlers ought to
be investigated. The company's charter bad been granted
by Charles 11. in 1670. but their operations had only
commenced in lee°. The honourable gentleman then
proceeded to give • sketch of the mummys operations.
Tee compauy was established for trading purloins it was
monop dining and restrictive in its proceeding., and as such
was meet unfit to carry out a proper system of colonisation.
They had but three vessels coming to the port of London,
and the goods imported by them did not nio mat to mole
than 30,0001. The settlers also coaailained that the circu-
lating medium consisted entirely of paper (with the exception
of a small copper currency), pa) able in London only at sixty
days after sight. No person coital hold land in the colony
without binding himself to military and civil tervice for the
defence of the company's extensive territories. lie could
neither S4ll nor underlet the land without their especial per-
mission. No person could trade with any country, even
England or America, without a license. 1.. was to such •
company that the government held out hopes of giving the
Island of Vancouver, which was likely to become
in the course of time a place ol considerable importance. It
was the only place which had good sheltered harbours up to
the Rusdan territory. It was fertile in many places, and
had the great advantage of pemeraing coal mince. It lay on
the route to China from America, another circumstance of
great in:aortance. For these reasons, and particularly be-
curse the Hudson's Boy Company was inimical to colonise.
thin, he Is pee th, government would not grant them V.Ol-
- I-Inna till further inquiries at least had been insti-
lived, and till the charges which had been made against the
company were refuted.
Mr. HAWES wild that the facts of the case brought under
the notice of the house by the hon. gentleman were these.
As soon as he had been appointed to the office
he held, many parties came forward and mani-
fest.' a desire to colonies Vancouver's Island. Several
plans had been proposed, but it did nut appear that the
parties who proposed them would be in any degree able to
carry out the objects they had in view. It should be borne
in mind that Vancouver's Blend was one of the most dis-
tant spots 03 the earth from this country, because to reach it
trey must tail round Cape Born. It was lieu most expensive,
and, therefore, was the least likely in the world to afford ad-
vantages for colotrisation. The Blame'. Bay Company had
requested the ninth-west territory, including Vancouver s
Island, but that wen it fits d. Subssipter VI, they. asked for
Vancouver's Island. Now, what were the objections to this
Grant ? In the fit.: place, • series of charges had ties
brouget against their administration of the affairs of the ter.
ritory by. Mr. Ids ear, a native of Itueert's Land. Ms
noble friend at the head of the Colonial-office teought
it his duty to have these charges inquired into, and for this
purpose a communication had been lent to the Governor-
General of Canada. Lord Elgin's answer, dated the GM of
June, had been received. and he stated therein " the results
of the inquiries I have hitherto made ar., very favourable to
the company, and they have left on my mind an impreesion
that the authority they exercise is on the whole very clean.
tageous to the Indiane' But his noble friend was not satire
find with that, and he resolved to institute a still further in-
quiry. What were the other objections to the grant ? it
should be remembered jhut tide was simply a territorial
grunt ; let it also be remembered that the company possessed
by charter the exclusive right of trading both with the na-
tive* o. the continent and those of the island, and that they
dieuldhe taken into consideration in any plan of colonisation.
But the grant was only territorial, the company would not
govern the island. There was to be a governor and
us
assembly, in whose hands the collection and application of
the revenues would be placed, and not in those of the llud-
son's Bey Company. In eatelnishine a constitution there
would be great advantage in establishing it in counexion
wish a company on the spot, a powerful company wl.o p.a-
sewed the exclusive right of trading with the na ivi s. They
..old not establish an independent colony without lare' : eon-
tediutions of public money, or by means of private funds.
He believed that most of the members of that home would
agree with him that the presna was not the time for making
large advances of the public money for the purpose
of founding another colony, and no private indi-
viduals came forward to do so who would be
ac II likely to carry out their object. But on
the other hand, there were very strong reasons for
occupying the island. (Hear, hear.) Unless occupied very
speedily by them, it would be oecuped by others. (Hear,
firer.) And there was besides the very important considers:
tiara that the island possessed coal mines, which it was of
advantage should be worked for the interests of British cam.
Decree. lie did not think it likely that those mines could
ler profitably worked by private individuals. If the island
offered such advantages t e settlers as the hon. gentleman
supposed, why did not private individualsattempt to colonise
it? Under these eireumsuinces it was thought desir-
able to occupy the Wand and to obtain the aid of
the Hudson's Bay Company. The charges brought
against the company crated on the statement of an indi
vidual; they were very imperfectly sustained by evidence,
and they were distinctly refuted by the company. Colo,iel
Crofton. who commanded a detachment for some time in
Prince Rupert's Land, gee: • favourable opinion respecting
the system of administration paretic d by the company, more
especially as regarded their policy iu discountenancing the use
of ardent spirits. With respect to spiritual comfort and edu-
cation, the re were four protestant churches and nine schools,
four Roman catholic schools, a Roman catholic bishop, and
several Roman catholic I.rieats in the Red River re ttlement
ale ne, which contained a population of only 5,000. But
although he considered that the charges against the com-
pany were not suetained, his noble friend thought that the
whole question should be investigated by parties totally dis-
interested. A gentleman who held a commission in the
Queen's army was appointed for this office.
An HON. Mc meet.—ls he not governor under the Hud-
son's Bay Company?
Mr. HAWES believed that was the case; but he did not
consider that would have any influence upon the report of a
gentleman of rank who held the Queen's commission.
Taking into consideration the circumstances he hail stated,
Ise th.sught his noble friend was fully justified in the course
he had taken.
Mr. GLADSTONE considered that the noble lord
at the head of the Colonial-office had committed a
gross error—that he had gone astray in his judgment more
signally than in any other instance which he could recollect
in the colonial administration of the country. (Hear.) elf
what dill the speech of the hon. gentleman who defended
the conduct of the Colonial-office consist ? Portly of an
endeavour to make good the character of the Hudson's Bay
Company, and partly of an endeavour to show that it was
nemenary speedily to occupy Vancouver's Island, and that
as the Hudson's Bay Company was the only instrument that
offered itself for this purpose, it was right, in the absence of
all others, to avail themselves of that. He (Mr. Gladstone)
would grant the force of that argument if they could strew
that the Iludsou's Bay Company was not open to funda-
mental objections. (Hear, hear.) But, on the other hand,
if he could show that there were the most valid objections to
.satins Vancouver's Island to the company, the necessity '
for • speedy occupation would ho no argument for granting
it to them, for it would be better to proceed slowly and
surely than speedily but rashly and mischievously. They
were not then discassiug a question of a day or of a year, but '
aemestion relating to an island in which, probably, at some
future period of the history of the world, a powerful state
would exist, and which would command a great portion of
the undo between the Archipelago of the Pacific and the con-
tinent of America. (Hear, hear.) The question, therefore,
before them was, whether they would found a new and
powerful state from the descendants of the people of Eng-
land, in an Wand which was favourably situated, which
I possessed a climate somewhat analogous to our own,
and which hail a considerable quantity of fertile soil ready
for immediate use. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman did
not deny that it possessed a large quantity of that valuable's
mineral which was the necessary, food of steam navigation.
I. It possessed a number of safe and commodious harbours—the I
only good ones along the southern coast, except the harbour
at the mouth of the Columbia river, which was rendered very
unsafe by a bar that ran across. It was therefore probable that
Vancouver's laud would be the key to a great portion of
the trade with the west of America. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. gentleman asked why did not private individuals. at-
tempt to colonise it if it was so good ? One very good reason
was that till 1846 there was a dispute concerning it, and it
was not known whether it was to be American or British
territory. (Hear, bear.) The honourable gentleman
would also admit that the circumstances of the country since
18WG were not favourable to great commercial enterprises.
But the hon. gentleman let slip a very unfortunate observa-
tion, which showed that the island was worth being emu-
pied, for be said that it this country did not occupy it, and
that speedily, it would be occupied by others. (Hear, hear.)
Other', then, would think it worth their while to occupy it,
and would take the opportunity of founding a valuable co-
lony. But the hon. gentleman talked of the expense of
mewling people there. It was true that by sailing round
Cape Ilorn the voyage was a very long one, but it wart not
much more distant than Australia. But no one could say
bow soon a communication might be formed with Oregon.
It would be rash in him to say that such a communication
would bo opened -in any given time, in 100 years or
20 years, or 10 years; but looking to the gigantic
works performed by the Americans in that way,
and bow they connected the distant parts of that vast con-
tinent by great works, even some of those who listened to
him might live to see the day when the communication with
Oregon would be opened. (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard
to the Hudson's Bay Company, all experience showed that
colonisation by means of companies was not the beet. The
colony of South Australia, while under the management of
a company, had entirely failed, and it began to prosper only
when taken into tho hands of the government. He agreed
with the hon. gentleman that companies produced universal
and unqualified mischief when they undertook the business

mment.
He admitted that they did not mean to give %o-
-h) the Hudson's Bay Company. t
verning powers an exclusive company, in
sohrowulleribesati°rentain'
d I dan company.
the narrowest sense of the term, an. a.
anded thinelethfoerelitanhadts the
e tgqhevergnoivneg pow"
AU experience was ein
chases with trading functions. There was nevera coal
that company
which the evils of monopoly had lied such a ran
heve op-
• was
tragaaiiinusgt atande conthinahon of land pur-
meat es the case of the Hudson's Bay Company. T coin-
: career exhibit, d all the evils of monopoly in the most striking
light. The hon. gentleman deprecated any dircussion of die
title of the company ,• but he (Mr. Gladstone) thought the,
paiiy had existed for 180 years, suit during the whole o its
of that
throughout its career. The charter of
of the company
1670 purported to give the most exorbitant powers to the
cahvaerrty,
charts
company ; but the company felt so little secure with its
achnthreleoitiprra.ted alwimmiarth.etlyveerYpoweettenoepess
charter that in IC9O it sought an act of parliament to corro-
borate its powers, an act which, however, only endured
until 1697, since which time the company had
by h • -
wets. In 1711 a c immittee was appointed the house
Po " pretended rights " of the company to
ha 1 no parliamentary authority for the exercise of lie
to inquire into the p
4:serene the powers it claimed ; and upon that occasion the
company, so far from insisting upon its rights, prayed, in its
petition to the house, that for anythieg that might ha token
from it, it might receive compensatioo. The right hon.
gentlemen quoted Mr. Bancroft's opinion, and that of Sir
Vicar Gbbs, that such a charter as thet claimed by the
Hudsoy n'si Bay Company, granted by the crown without the
sanction of par:iament, was ob ,nitio void and of no effect.
There was a joint opinion of Sir Arthur I'igott, Serjeent
Spank', and of Mr. Brougham to the same purpose. As
a fur tiading company, this company was altogether
ineligible to be entrusted with the charge of colonisation.
It was not a colonising company; it wail essentially An anti-
celonising company. Its object, as a fur-trading company,
was necessarily to keep its territories in the wild and savage
atato adapted for the growth and diffusion of the arimnis
upon wh,sc fur thee relied for their commerce. It might be
true that in its older servants the company possessed the
apparent materials of colouisation ; but the slorolute and un-
mitigated despotism which had characterhed the rule of this
company from the outset, lied altogether unfitted these men
es a body of free settlers, such as aloha ought to be planted
in Vauceueer's Island, or anywhere Ise. -To use the words
of Commits Welts, the company's servants were all of them
mere vassals, pliant, from lone and strict discipline,
to the will of their masters. In 1311, six members
of the company themselves memorialised the govern-
ment against the settlement on the Red River, on the
distinct principle that colonisation was unfavourable to the
fur trade. The hun. member ereuee that the company
would make no great pr, fits of Vancouver's Island as a
colony; certainly they would not, nor did they conternelate
such a result, their object being nut the promotion of colo-
nisation at all, but the extension of their hunting grounds.
The company had been all along the determined enemy of
celenisatton. Hudson's Bay, it was woB known, would afford
a large re vsnue from n whale li,hery ; but the company hail
neither fished itscif, nor allowed others; pay, when two ships
came there ou a whaling expedition, they had managed to
have them smile. In she same way the company haa wholly
neglected to work the ample resources which a land cam-
Nay or a body of colonists would have developed on the
shores of the bay, and many, many miles inland.
There had keen an attempt meek by Lord Selkirk,
when he had bouelet up shine 116,000 square miles of the
company's territory, to found a colony at Reel River; but the
other members of the company bad as vigorously set them-
selves against the project, as the North-West Company had
dune ; and there was little doubt that there was cognisance,
more sales', en the part of these disseutients, of the attack
of the Indians upon the Red River settlement, which had
been attended with such sanauinary results. The some
interests would be at work to oppose colonisation in Vancou-
ver's Island, and—for thero were Indians in Vancouver's
Island—perhaps by similar means. By the deed under
which settlers hold lauds under the Hudson Bay Company
'those settlers divested themselves of all freedom a action, of
' all the privileges of Englishmen, placing themselves wholly
and in all respecte at the absolute disposal of the compan,
tied hand and toA. Was this to be the princie
on which settlers were to 'lto out to Vancouver's Island?
The company had no sort of intention, when they negotiate
this matter with the government, of forming what was un-
derstood by a colony in Vancouver's Island. This was a
suggestion which the government had made, end which the
company hid accepted, with however wry a face, in the
feeling that at all events they could weaken the effect of solo-
nisation by all sorts of modes, asking, in return for the con-
ees.ion, a grant of all the Queen's territories west of the
Rocky hlountains, in order manifestly to keep other people
from corning anywhere near them. The hon. member had
alluded to the charges made egainst the company--charges
sufficiently important, in his opinion, to warrant, if not the
refusal of this grant, at all events its suspension. The hen.
member said there had been an inquiry into these charges ;
but this inquiry—which in the first place ought not to have
been referred to the governor of the Bed River settlement,
a though he were, at the same time, an officer in our navy—
bad net, in his opinion, produced any satisfactory result.
The hon. gentleman stoke as though the sole complainant of
the company was a Mi. Isbister, whereas, Mr. Ishister was
the agent of 1,000 other persons, members, teethe meet
part, if Indian and half-breed families. Christian converts,
who all, through Mr. Isbister, grievously complained of the
Hudson's Bay Company, and, among other things, com-
plained that, so late as 1845, the company was in the
habit of inflicting corporeal punishment upon its see- ,
vents, of its own ale-elute authority, without trial.
What did the hon. member say of capitol punishment with-
out even the form of a trail? Was that to be investigated ?
Such a charge had been made by Mr. T. tiimpson, one of the
servants of the company, and they were not likely to
bear witness against their employers. The regulations of
the company and their directions to their agents authorised '
them to kill those Indians who raised their arras against I
Europeans in their employ. The company also levied taxes
of their own authority. Was that to be endured ? Angels
and archangels alone could be safely entrusted with such
powers. They were far too large to be entrusted to a
trading company. The servants of the company also were
said to be paid in notes of hand only to be cashed in London.
The scarcity of fold was such in the Hudson Bay territory,
that the Indians were driven to resort to cannibaliem, not as a
matter of taste or preference, hut of dire necessity. Was it not a
monstrous hardship to compel barbarians to bring most
valuable commodities for sale, and to confine them to one
single customer, with whom alone it rested to make the
return of value for his commodities? And what proportion '
did that return bear to tho value of the article ? He referred
to the Iludson Bay territory Indians alone, and not to the
frontier Indians of Canada. It was st sled by Mr. Robson ,
last century that 2,000 per cent. was the gain of the com-
pany. Mr. Umfraville stated in 1796 that a gallon of spirits
bought a skin wc rth 61. A bearskin worth 21. was ex-
changed against a comb worth about 41. A gun costing
225. was given for 20 beaver skins, worth 321. 10s. A dozen
brass buttons, worth 104 d., bought a beaver skin worth
325. 61. Was this a fair tragic? Was it fair to
compel the Indians to deal with one customer
making such profits like this; and, if so, was it not
just to compel the company to provide against starva-
tion ? Ile did not believe in the assertion that he fur
trade required a monopoly, Red could only be carried on in
that manner. As for the opinion of Lehi Elgin on the ques-
tion ache Hudson's Bay Cempany, great as was his respect I
for that nobleman, his authority on this point was not worth
more than that of any member of the house. The 1110110111
of spirits, from 3,000 to 9,000 gallons within the last few
years in the Hudson's Bay_ territory, was another ugly feet
that demanded inquiry. Then, again, as to settlers, it was
moat necessary to be choice is their selection. If a good selec-
tion of settlers was made the best results might be attained.
But what were the facts, as they had been represented to
i hint ? The system of the company with respect to settlers was
most objectionable. 'that of remitting the duties on certain
commodities imported afforded a proof of this ; for that prao-
He had been
bSeiennelareirf had.d
eke gave the company a power which they often exercised
stouffthereedgrveeargreatly
great
detriment
by
thisth the
settlement.
system.
the privilege of importing any manufactures in the com-
pany's ships by a formal letter from Mr. Secretary Alexander
Christie. These allegations were so serious that they ought
to put to flight all the intentions on the part of the govern-
ment to grant any additional powers 'to the company until
, they had been investigated. No one whoread the evidence,
even the most friendly towards the company, that of Mr.
Simpson the Arctic discoverer, for example, but must wine
to the conclusion that their settlement was not condeeted
lemon proper principles. The hon. member then quoted a
part of Mr. Simpeon's biography, showing that no steps had
been taken to erect a place of worship throughout their ter-
ritory, a fact which was conclusive against them. The work
of Christianity had been effected is the Hudson Bay Com-
pany's territory by the Church Missionary Society, and even
that was confined to very few spots in that vast range. The
Bishop of Montreal stated that there was no chaplain atFort
Vancouver, and that there was only one clergyman
at the Red: River settlement. But it might be
said, that if there were not church of England
clergymen, there were ministers of other denornins,-
Sons. That was not the case, es Mr. Simpson's
evidence showed. Whilst referring to these statement& he
did not meal. to say they were conclusive against the com-
pany, but their general bearing was such as to demand inves-
tigation. The company had also und'rtaken formally to locate
the Indians on a part of their territory, but they never made
the attempt after 150 years' possession, until the year 1832.
He had endeavoured to serene in a manner to bring out the
Stets, and in so doing he thought he had successfully shown
the Hudson's Bay Company to be the very worst medium of
colonisation that could be instituted. The Colonial-office
had not done its duty in this respect, for no notice had ever
been publicly given that land would bo granted at Vancou-
ver's Island; and when it was recollected that the Americans
were about to establish a line of steamers in that direction, it
was obvious there existed in that circumstance a great
stimulus to colonisation for coals must be bidet Vancouver's
Island, and they must either be seat out from England or
procured or. the spot, for which there were great facilities, as
coal abounded there. The government was deviating in the
present; case from the course pursued b former ministers
in;granting a prospective right to the land which might
hereafter become the British territory In that part
of America. The license of trade of the company of
1838 was limited, and expressly declared that its the
event of a new settlement being formed within the
itempany's territory, their
privileges
at once ceased at
that settlement. Hut, if the thing was to be done, it
ought to have been done in a different form. The maxim of
of Grey was, that it was necessary to provide the elements
a tree government, but the. maxim, Quid
lager sine
esoribur, then came an view. What
was the use of laws
without the means of using them? The despotic power of
the Hudson Bay Company had • • extinguished all the
means of exercising
the powers of a free government
amongst those under their rule. With all these a elle tions
staring the government in the face, it g
not their
duty
to pause before they granted an extension of the already

.Prtl:wnw"'"--"ntbo a-
paolwslearno.if.thue comt
thpsengy:autTiohne
overgrown Vancouver
that the house had to look to. The words ofll.ll—o '44
poet of the day were here applimble—" the boy •-,,,,grrnse
the man." S 3 would the settlement of Vanc'etv"
become the parent of an important community "el,'" "an,.
tone Bay Company had overshot its mark. la
inordinate demand, Sr' John Felly had ensured tie —2_4
Ration of partial:fleet into this most important
in so doing he had ensured the gratitude of those' ..,7'141
hereafter destined to become the denizens of the
over which he ruled at present irresponsibl -."41
e and
Mr. C. BULLER protested against the mode •
is
the motion was treat's ar.4 brought forward • bn„,'”o•
forlng the house or the public any means of diseirl'"7„ll.
real question. It appeared to him that the ahleu'Ll' `!
quent speech of the right hon. gentleman who had ,O„,"
down put the real question altogether out of sight,
the greater part of it must ba :eked as ramlyiag tom,,,ee
but the island of Vancouver. 'Cm snouted tartV.
yeroasent were giving the monopoly of that Weia P>
Hudson's Bey Company. The tom was they late slips
For 11 years they had exercised absolute gepernutett'°,,,f•
and exclusively traded with it. The err ant tontaiee4 ry
that if the government repented of the grant 'ease
they mi-l'. tanned it, and re-enter upoe ponepo. 11'1
Upon re. paying such euras of money as hod
trended by. the company upon improvements. If it
wilt, continued the lion. gentlemen, it w• old bota-4'
an injustice, but abso'ute rubbery, to iosW(-1
reretrerine the island, anti toe ine
improvements made by the industry and capitol of thi...l
puny. Hon. gentlemen had spoken of the meat
eoloni'ation and future empire which that itandwOolj?.:
that he altogether dissented from; stem.: an rein out
was for colonisation, he should altogether aimporove v"`
enuver's Island as an ~,
eligible place for it, at all se„4 ,'
the next hundred years. The last spot the wee,;,,Z`z
an attempt would be made to establub a huge lode' a-n
tiers would he Vancouv. r's Islonel. He (Mr.
tellecd of settlers to the amount of 49,000, 60,1,00,
est but that island was-thed very last spot in her Al .jest •s d '
o,
pions to which the stream of colonieation would be s"
directed from this country, at all evert. Lod. ,7,`„
at; tho map of . the world, there was; to
except the icy country to the north,
Russia, which would take an much time and games
from this country as Vancouver's Island. It would, the
fore, in all probability, remain with few steepest°,
60 or 100 years, until the inimbilants of Northern Ism;
Oregon, and other parts of the globe,. bad become so thoo7,
clustered as to induce them to settle m Vancouver's 11.1
whose climate was—his American experiemo eteleatie,'"
say—the most healthy and delightful in the
Mr. FLUME objected to the Cclucial Secretary boo,.
taken upon him-ell to dispeon of soe.h important interera 4
those granted to the Huth m's Bay Company, v
luting every possible information on the subject, rade.
bling pa:Lament to come to a determiratien soo
it. He decidedly (Reapproved of the Col:co,
Secretary haying taken upon hiensile the fa,;:,
tions of parliament, which Str,ul.l at all lan
have been consulted before anything whettver hue
granted. He condemned such a proceeding, and he %beet
it ought to be discountenanced. (Hear.) Tie h.eme.
able meeer conended by moving that ha addax
be presented to her adaj,:aty that she would not grant Cu.
courer's Island to the aludisen's Bay Cmpany until la
emir,- should be instituted and the eythelites of the lee
fully ascertained.
Mr. tr. HOWARD seconded the motion.
Mr. WILD supported the amendment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the question bad lax
:rested by the hon. member for Montroe in Tether a ee
guise manner. He had et en notice of an imention to al
the attention of the house to leas premised grant of one
couver'e Island to the Hued en's Bay Company, aod
made a speech in keeping with that metien. The tea
member who seconded him took the same course, batlike
quently the hon. member for Montme again rose and ro
posed that the house should at once come to a spate*
elusion on the question.
Mr. HUME explained that he merely proposed cigliy
order that time might be had for inqniry.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that of the motion of the in
member were agreed to all steps in the way of eilonisame
must be pompon:el until the year after next, sad in the aces
time the island would have been settled by the American
(Hear, hear.) He (Lord J. Russell) admitted teat it mu
be very desirable if any company or individuals would
dertaka the task of colonisation immediately. but they end
not shut their eyes to the fact that the territory in Tata
had been obtained by treaty in into ; that lima dita
had been notorious that the crown could oast bei
west of the Rocky Mountains, and yet Lard Grey hat
received only one tacgible offer, that of the lhaWs
Bey Company. (Hear, het r.) The hen member mane
made two objections to the company, one as to their beinos
monopoly, and the other as to their aging despotic in tin
government. Now, however true that might he, it had te
relation to the subject matter. The compana`a charttrwse
remain in force until 1939—they having obtained, is lel,
the exclusive privilege of trading with the Incliamta2l
years, and it was rot proposed, at the prow nt time, to tie
them any new or exclusive privileges. As to the overehoo
eion'ef despotic government, the present proposal was tI)C4I-
- a government on the built of a frm constitution. Study,
the hon. member court hardly be dissatisfied with the ere*
of giving every man in the colony • vote, ard of estabaskat
a representative assembly, which, In conjumtion stab es
governor, was to carry on the government. The Le.
member further asserted that settlers mould act obtain lei,
but his fear had no fouedat on, except in his imaginaliati
they could always hue it from the &loyalty. But, thud,
the proposal was not to grant any exclusive rights or despot
powers. The hon. member's arguments might he goad c a
future day for destroying the power of the Hudson's 134
Campine, as similar'arguments might be used &mint*
East Indic Company, hut they had nothing to do with tk
immediate subject The point was this. The crowo,sait
no other chance of colonising Vancouver's Island, male
grant of it to the Hudson's Bay C mammy, revocable at*
end of eleven }cars. lie did not wish at that mematts
enter at any length into the merits of the Hudton'sliet
Company. but he must say ke relied much on the creaked
Lord Elgin, who said that all the inquiries he had Made Id
turned out highly favourable to the company, and that bs
believed they ruled the vast and inhospitable reeierti is
trusted to them in a highly creditable manner. lithe ham
slid not wish to let Vancouver's Island fall into the bere
of the A-pentane he trusted they would negatios is
amendment of the hon. member for Montreee.
Mr. GOULBURN said that first the hon. member ix
Liduard had complained of a speech having been tads
without a motion, and now the noble lord complained of th
hon. member for Montrose for making a motion. (Beard
Mr. BULLER explained.
Mr. GOULBURN said that he objected to the grantee*
provident, beenuse the company was not in a con d ti¢u take
a colony, • fact which he was jeatified in le lieviag has
their past conduct. The noble lord had urged that if vs
did not take possession of the island, the Americans wool
settle there. Could there be a morn imporicet reason for
taking every care that the island was settled prover?
(Hear, hear.) We should take possession of it is these
of the Queen of England, and then we might defy se
attempts from the United States. (Hear, hear.) Is toes
company's privileges standing in the way, he would rail
the neide lord that in granting these prieileme Ini
Olenelg had expressly stipulated that wherever the grind
government settled a colony within their limits the 115
vilegea of the company were to cease. It was qu'a elmN
by the grant now proposed this useful entiloa wadi Is
abrogated, and the company would obtain entire coot*
He was opposed to leaving this valuable island in the hote
of those who, without imputing any evil disposition Loth*
he must say had not the capacity or the intr.-is: to dad'
settlement advantageous to this country. He therefore*
dially hoped that the subject would be reconsidered by*
government.
Mr. DUNCAN observed that if they gave the idea
ls
the Hudson's Bay Company they weld be very Glad tabu
it restored in a few yew, and then have to r y a large 112
for what they gave away for nothing.
The house then divided—
For going into committee of supply
For the amendment
Col. SIBTIIORI' wished to know whether it was intentlid
to proceed with the third reading of the Conupt ]'moon
Bill that evening.
Lord J. RUSSELL did propose to do so, and if there";
any objection he would suggest that the house meet at 11
o'clock to-morrow for the purpose. (Oh.)
Col. SIBEHORP had never heard so contemptible a
answer. (A laugh.)
The house then went into committee. The following yea
were agreed to a.
90,0001. for education in Ireland (on tin is vote No
Hamilton intimated, in answer to Mr. Osborne, that he Teo
poi ed to bring on his motion adverse to the national trim
of education in Ireland on the next supply rioht, Muds,
next), and 4,0001. for the School of Design.
The vote 2,00 t,/. for salaries and allowances to protester
of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge was opeesel
1:7 al
Mr. OSBORNE, who thought it unreasona to
the country to pee these professors on these [rounds; 104,
that the universities had large funds of their own;
that the education was not open to all stets; and
that the classes presided over by there prefe,e,re we re sheeel
wholly deserted, lie should divide thee committee wow
the vote.
Sir R. INGLIS supported the Tote, and reminded
Venel
committee that similar manta were made for th, _
of London, which was open to all sect; that 30,000 ti•
granted to the Roman catholic', and four or tire, a
dinar:
much as these univirsities received was granted t
ing institution at Belfast. to reiltr
Lord J. RUSSELL, though he should he sorry 00,,
the remuneration granted to these professors,. and 11,°'
they were led to understand they would retain,_ tear;
it would be of advantage if some mode could he deviled ;
reader these professors more useful. Though the
the universities prohibited dissenters from taking
clef
dissenters and Roman catholic, were permitted to brelf
cited at the University of Cambridge. He thoeght tb we:
jeetion to altering the constitution of the universitint
tadll,f
be removed, oral tho advantage sought for by! atett
Roman catholic., educated at Cambridge, obtained is Ir:st;
to degrees, if certificates of proficiency were giritioultgke
university, which should entitle the woes to dettle.7.lsaa
Univeniitt, of London. With regard to 0.: ,rd h
say nothing at present.
(6,
After al in
few words from Mr. DVNBi , • • • tupeort
vote, e'r ft•
Mr. W. J. FOX reminded the hon. baronet
1.
that time hal changed the constitution of the uti v
were originolly national ; but now they.were
middle and lower classes, and exclusive also
grounds. As an encouragement to literature tee
useless while it was for the benefit of a class of pereMe
did not require it. at. VW.
GOULBURN objected to the amendment.

-------
sud gallant member who proposed it was in error when he
said the universities of Oxford and Cambridge conferred no
advantage upon the poorer classes of this country. The
aristocracy, it was true, were educated at those universities,
hit how many persons were there of humble origin who ob.
tined degrees there, and afterwards became distinguished at
the bar aml other pursuits.
Mr. also complained of the exclusion of the poor
lad different classes of religionists front the bench!. which
the universith e conferred.
Mr. B. DRUMMOND thought all sects ought to partici-
pate in the adviustagt s conformd by the establishment of the
professorships. It was said that they represented in that
house the aristocracy of mind, but they should also remember
they represented the democracy of poverty.
Mr. OLAUS PONE entirely sympathised in the observa-
tion made by the bon. member for Moatrose. But he must
distinctly say that the ”cor w,rs not excluded front the uni-
verities, although be 'deeply regretted that their reception
at diem was not so general as ho fervently hoped ;it would
mon be.
Col. THOMPSON ilia not see why dissenters should sub-
mit to the humiliation of keeping their Units in one uni-
versity and taking their degree* in au ,•her.
Mr. C. ANSTEY reminded the house that at the Uni-
versity of London, ft•nnan catholics and other dissenters
could keep their terms and take their degrees.
Ala a few observations from Mr. ESVAKT,
Nr. B. OSBORNE rephed and the committee divided.
For the vote
Against 2O-76
The chairman thou reported progress, and the house re-

rained.
CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL.
On the motion the g put that the bill be read a third
time,
Col. SIBTHOR!' expressed himself in terms of great in-
dignation at the bill brine brought forward let that late hour
in the evening, and declared the conduct of the noble lord
(J. Rena) with regard to the bill, to be unworthy of a man,
a chriatian. and a minister. (Laughter.)
Mr. HOBILOUSE mule eca,ral objections to the bill, and
moved that it be read a third time that day six mouths.
Mr. HENLEY t,id it was unfair to discuss the bill
at that Its hour, hut it would be still more unfair to
discus it on the morrow. lie complained of the
indecent haste with which the bill had been forced upon the
house; and urged some objection to several of its prod--
noes, among which he censidered the compulsory prxlue-
lion by a peefessieual man of his haelter's hook to be a pecu-
liar grievance. He certainly would support the amendment.
Mr. ANSTEY said he had a. censined that a rumour
which he bad heard and repeated reporting the Dublin
election was utterly f..lse ; and therefore he wished to retract
what he had stated on that authority. (Hear.) He opposed
the third rraling.of this bill on account of the objectionable
provisions of the indemnity clause. The effect of this would
be, as regarded Horsham, for inet.:rce, to preven• the wit-
nesses who might be examined betere the commissioners
from giving evideoce is any dole's that might be tried at
the ensuing Lewes assizes —if such action were not com-
promised. For his own part, he was ready to produce an
account of the expenses of hie election, to prove that, se far
from brir.g guilty of tribal', he had net even ex. reised cent
mon charity to the starving inhabitants of the borough. He
bad been charged by the hon. member for Lancashire (Mr.
Brown) with dutril.utirg to the voters, after the election,
" a fat goose." (Great I leghter.) This he indignantly de-
nied ; but, if the hon. eentl.anan would move for a corn-
saiuee ot inquiry hits the Youehal election, he (Mr. Atutey)
would tern :u the motion. ( Leughter.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL raid he had hitherto
abstained from n dieing the person -el attacks of the hon. gen-
tleman, which b A commenced front the time that he felt it
his they to oppose the lion. member, Ito:erin Caanolio Bill.
The hon. gentleman heti mounted that he (the Attorney.
General) was ginity of certain practiees because an action
had been brought against him. That action had net been
compromised ; and he was me,t anxious that the fullest in•
quiry should take place. (Cheers.) Ile had learnt that,
though the action had been brought, not a single
person named in the deelaratt.it as having re-
ceived Inibes had beau ex.:rained at 01l are. the other
aide. The day before the trial should have cocoa on his
atrmey leeched notice of couotermand from the pl cintiffe
attorney, who was the same p rice that had acmd as Mr.
Fitzsprald's attorney at the election; but he (the Attorney-
General) had indignantly returned the notice, and endea-
voured to drive them on to trial. (Cheers.) So for, there-
fore, from the hon. and learned gentleman's attack giving
him the least aenoyance, he felt obli;ed to him for it, and
would have thought it inrl^cent to notice it, nor would he
have done so now but that he was driven to it. (Heir.) So far
trom seeking any indemnity, he hid teething to do with the
bill. (Hear.)
Mr. ANSTET.—You voted for it.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—I voted for it Why if
I did not vote for it it would have been said I was afraid of
inquiry—(cheers)—and if I do vote for it, it is said that I
want indemnity. (Loud cheery.) And though it suited the
hon. and learned member to found his stuck, not on reasons

17.:COnpers70; motives, he yet turned round in the same
speech upon the hon. member behind him for saying some.
thing against the honour of the hon. and learned member.
(Loud cheers.)
Mr. BANKES regretted that the name of Mr. Fitrgerald
had been mentioned bs thu hen. and learned gentleman (the
Attorney-General). tre',Nei..., who brought the action
might be Mr. Fitzgera"d's solicitor, and yet that hon. mem-
ber might know noting of the action against the hon. and
learned gentleman.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he had merely
mentioned the fact.
Mr. W. BROWN said be had e ot the Last objection to
restate what i.e had said on a former lice 'Won. (Laughter.)
He said that it was rumoured the ccnAitueney which the
hon. and learned gent Leman represented al says looked out
for fat peace, and that when they got one they plucked him
very well. (Laughter.)
Lard J. RUSSELL did not think there was any ground
of complaint in consequence of the manner in which he
pressed the bill. On the contrary, he thought that it had
received a great deal of nnnecea sty opposition. (Ilea)
The house than divided—For the third reading 80
Animist it
On the motion that the bill, do pass,
Mr. ANSTEY suggested a course by which the hon. and
learned gentleman (the Attorney-General) could drive the
plaintiff to prosecute his action.
The ATTORNEY OENERAL said he had taken the
very course suggested by the hon. and learned member.
(Loud cheers.)
The bill then pawed.
The house adjourned at a quarter put two o'clock.

ELECTION COMMITTEES—YESTERDAY.
Dval.m.—Tiio case of the petitioners against Mr.
Reyno!ds' qualification was closed, after which the corn.
taints adjourned to this day.
CHELTEMlA3l.—Petitioners case closed. Counsel
roamed up. Committee adj,nrned to this day.
110119114 M.—Evidence in support of petitioners'
clue further beard.