The Express.
London, England, 1851-06-17 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY_ EVENING, JUNE 17, 1851.

had had the enjoyment, and, he hoped, many of them the
instruction, of going to these gardens and getting away from
the atmosphere of the metropolis. With napeetto the
other hems toleblek reimence. bad mosK 1104 not
thiptclaaceriry 2he shoe* en them.
line few word( m
Cot. LWEY =dee the dlasetions of It eon-
mittee igpule thoseAmical talking figures of the Ben and
nuitmli‘a4, been plated in front of Buckingham Palace ?
It appeared to hint that the proper plave fur them wee at
the east end of the National Gallery', opposite St. Martin's
Church, where there was a figure of Britannia, better
I known as BetV Martin. (Laughter.)
Lord SEYMOUR was aerry that the guUunt °Meg "rat
not, shtiatteti with the figutee r4orred to. (Laughter.' They
had been made by a person who had made a good many
other, connected with the new houses of parliament,--(cos-
tinned laughter) —and knowing that they were entrusted
to a person of eeperience, it had not been thought necessary
to interfere.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS hoped there would be no objection
to postpone this vote until the report he had moved fir
were prited. Ile would feel indebted if the noble
lord could justify such items as those for Dun-
fermline Abbey, Arbrmth Abbey, Elgin Cathedral, Dun-
drennan Abbey, Dunblane Abbey, and St. Andrew's
Cathedral. These were establishments which ought to be
supported out of the ecclesiastical revenues. To the ex-
pouses set down for the Ecclesiastical Commission he had
always taken exception. He wished to know why the
country should be taxed for it, and why the expenditure
should not be defrayed out of the revenues of the church.
Under one batch they had a charge of 691. Os. 2d. for the
Ecclesiastical Commission, and under another an item for
the same commission of 5111. He would like to know why
the public were burdened with this charge, and also why it
was put down in two different places. lio also objected to
the item of 41,0001. for the parks and gardens. He again
appealed to the noble lord to postpone the vote.
After a few words from the CHANCLLLOR of the EXCEIR-
QUZIt. and Mr. W. Nyl L L ,
. . .

Viscount DUNCAN said he was the calm of this vote being
entered on tho miscellaneous estimates. Tho hon. member

(Mr. Williams) would And that this sun if 41,8291. was
not additional expenditure, but that suc► Mums had hitherto
been defrayed fr,m the land revenue.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to direct the attention of the com-
mittee to the item of SW'. for lighting and water rates to
the house of the British ambassador at Paris. The oAkial
salaries committee last year, while discussing the subject of
the French embassy, had thought that it should be reduced
to the rank of a commission, and that the salary instead of
being 10,0004 per annum, should be reduced to 5,0001.
One argument against this arrangement was that the house
was so very large and costly, that it would require something
like 2,0001. per annum to defray the ordinary and inevitable
expenses.
Viscount P.

acknowledged that the official
salaries committee had recommended that the salary of our
representative in Paris should not exceed 5,000/. per an-
num, and that the office should be reduced to the rank of a
commission. The government, however, had thought that
it would not be consistent with the position of this country
to apply such a principle to the embassy ►t Paris It had
been proposed at various times to lessen the expense by sell-
ing the house and purchasing another. Neither did he think
this would be good policy. A house of such a description
would not at present sell in Paris for anything of conse-
quence.
Mr. BRIGHT said that in the official salaries committee
last year there had been *difference of opinion as to the
stew which should be paid to the British ambassador at
P. The noble lord (Lord J. Russell) and the hon.
member for Coventry had been in favour of 10,000/. ;
others were for 1,0001. Another proposal was, that it
should be 8,0001. The reason why 8,0001. had not been at
once consented to was, that it was thought impossible for
the ambassador to live in the present house on less than
10,0001., such was its magnitude. For some years the eats.
blishment had not been maintained at less than 14,0001.,
whereas one half of that sum might have sufficed.
Lord .1. RUSSELL stated that he had not been present
in committee whin this matter was discussed. Afterwards,

however, in discussing the subject the government had
thought it desirable to keep up the embassy and reduce the
salary to B,OOW.
Colonel SIBTIIORP said that the prcseut government
had no more caro fur the pockets of the people than he had
found the right hon. gentleman the Home Srcretury,thc other
night, have for the lives of her Majesty's subjects. (A laugh.)
'f hough the people were heavily taxed the money was ex-
pended without any care or consideration. Farmers were
in a state of starvation almost, and tradesmen found that
their trade had gone from them, as he always said it would,
through that infernal Crystal Palace. (Laughter.)
Some conversation ou minor items having taken place be-
tween Lords Duncan and Seymour, and Messrs. N . South,
Mastic, and Bankes,
Mr. III:ME wished much that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would go over to Belgium for a week, and see,
with his own eyes, the admirable manner in which the es-
timates were scrutinini,ed there.

Colonel SALWEY said he found that in 1849-50 there
were two items of 6,5101. and 10,0001., and since then there
had been other items, making altogether 34,1131. for the
supply of water to Windsor Castle. He wished to know if
they had come to an end of that expenditure. He believed
that these included soine other items, which were insidi-
ously lumped together; but if he took them out the total
expenditure for water would still be 30,0001.
Lord SEYMOCIt said this would be the last expenditure
for this purpose. It was fur the construction of is large re-
servoir to preserve the castle from fire.
Colonel SALWEY said lie did not grudge the expendi-
ture for Windsor Castle so much as he did that fur ether
palaces, because he believed it was the only one worthy of
the name of a royal palace; but he did consider this
an enormous expenditure for the supply of water.
Ile wished to make a few observations with regard to the
item of 3.501. for the repair of the houses of the Military
Knights of Windsor. This was one of those abuses which
was a great scandal to the church, the intentions of the
founder having been entirely disregarded and set aside by I
the dean and canons of Winibor, —(he a r hear)—who had
appropriated the property to themselves. It was perfectly
well known to every member of that house that certain
1 sums had been voted at various times for this purpose ; but
it was not so well known that there were certain
trusts charity
out of which these expenses ought to come. Edward
VI., Queen Elizabeth, and James 1., set apart property to
provide military knights with a proper and sufficient main-
tenance,
and to repair their houses in case of need. It was '
perfectly manifest that this must have been the case, for in
the reign of Queen Mary, and in five subsequent years, the
total amount of these revenues was act apart for building
these houses ; and it we, perfectly clear, if the revenues
were applied to such a purpo,e, that the military
knights were entitled to receive proper pay from
the dean and canons, which they slid not. All
that the dean and canons allowed them was one
shilling a day ; just one-half that which he allowed to
his agricultural labourers. Was that honest or just ? The
military knights were founded 503 years ago, at the same
time that the knights of the order of the Garter were
founded, to whom they were an appendage. The evident
intention of the founder was to provide for such old soldiers
as had served him during the war, but Edward 111. in an
evil hour placed these unfortunate knights under the care
and superintendence of the dean and canons of Windsor,
uniting them as a corporation, of which the knights formed
a component part. Now, whilst the revenues of the dean
and canons of Windsorliad increased tenfold, they had leR
these unfortunate men with a shilling a day, and they did
not repair the houses the knights lived in, but made them a
burden on the public. He considered this a very Imes case,
and that if they were to lump together the whole of the
estimates they would not find a grosser case of misappro-
priation of public property. It was not his intention, how-
ever, to take up the time of the house with it now, as he
had a motion on the subject for next Tuesday, but he
should confine himself at present with moving that this
sum of 5.301. be disallowed.

Sir G. °HEY remarked that if this Nam of 5,50/. were
disallowed the only result would be that the military
knights would have to pay it out of their own pockets.
Colonel SALWEY said that was not the case. He de-
nied that the knights could he called upon to pay it. The
poor knights strongly objected to this money being laid
out. The sum ought to come out of the revenues of the
estates, and it was the bounden duty of the government to
ice that that was done.

Sir 0. GREY observed that when he said the poor
knights would have to limy the money out of their own
pockets, he meant if the houses were repaired at all. The
cons,queuce of disallowing the vote would be that the
houses would not be repaired. With regard to the general
question he was bound to say it was a otnetly legal question,
and it would take a great deal of time to go into it now.
The matter was inquired into by a former government, who
put a case before their law officers, the late Sir William
Follett and the present Chief Baron, who were of opinion
that government would not be justified in interfering with
it, and that if the claim were substantiated at all it must be
in a court of law.

Col. SALWEY asked if the right hon. gentleman would
lay that opinion on the table of the house.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR or THE Ex-
CHZQUIR and Mr. MCIIR,
Sir 3. GRAIIAM said he was not at all prepared for this
question being discussed this evening, but he thought this
question required the careful attention of the committee.
As to the legal question, it was quite clear that considering
the smallness of the allowance made to the knights, they were
unable to repair the houses themselves, and if the vote was
' not passed they would remain without repair.
Colonel SALWEY said under all the circumstances of
the case, as he was to bring it before the house to-morrow
week, he would not divide the house on the present occa-
sion.
1 Sir G. GREY said he had told his hon. and gallant friend
that they could not produce the confidential opinion of the
law officen of the crown.
The vote was then agreed to.
The neat vote was a sum not exceeding 41,8291. for de-
' fraying the expenses of the parks.
Viscount DUNCAN inquired why the list did not in-
clude Hampton Court Park, Bushey and Richmond Parks?
Lord SEYMOUR replied that those parks would not
need any particular expense.
Viscount DUNCAN drew the noble lord's attention to
the report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests for
last year, when the expenses of Richmond Park alone were
set down at upwards of 5,0001. (Hear.)
Col. SIBTIIOIIP reminded the noble lord (Lord Sey-
mour) that what might be an inconsiderable sum to him
might he a large one to the public. For his own part, he
(the gallant colonel) would be very sorry to trust his private
purse to the management of the Woods and Forests.
(A laugh.) In addition to the estimate for Kennington
Igardens, there was, on another page, a sum for taking
down the brick wall on the lower side, and replacing it
with iron rails. Why were not all these items put
together ? Dividing them in this ass= looked very seek

lske k double-dealing mode of proceeding. (A laugh.)
fkrrp melt money collected for their trumpery glees
he shenld have thought they .would have had
Nome to spare, and he should have reeiSsunended that a
little of it be given to the poor knight. of Windsor;
but instead of that he found an estimale -of 10651. 17s. pro-
posed to granted to the commission for the salaries of
secretaries, clerks, de. (Hear, hear.) While on this sub-
ject he would take the opportunity of saying that the state-
ment which had been inserted in the newspapers to the
effect that he had visited the Exhibition was wholly untrue.
He had never been in it nor near it; and he never meant
I.t
to dose, unless it should be necessary to protect her Majesty's
subjects, in which case ho should most zealously press the
arguments/es baculinun. on the attention of the unruly.
(Laughter.) He loved the people of England, and he had
a right to love them ; and therefore it was that be felt com-
pelled to set his face against the Exhibition, for he looked
upon it as a cruel infringement upon their rights, a shame-
ful robbery of our native industry, and a gross insult to
the public. (Laughter.)
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Lord Seymour, and

'Viscount Duncan,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS considered that the number of per-
sona in parks who wore what used to be called " Lincoln
green," but what ho supposed would now be styled " Sey-
mour green," were useless, rind their salaries wasted. The
estimate also mentioned lodges. There were 130 of these
lodges, but by that somewhat homely term was meant what
were in point of fact mansions, and these had been granted
to some of the first people in the land. lie should like to
know if the tithes and parochial rates upon such lodges
were included in the item for those charges? There was
also an item fur 5,0971. for Regent's-park, which was one-
third more than the entire coat of lighting, watering the
streets, paving, and, in short, of the whole management of
the parish of St. Marylebone, and the work was not so well
done. He thought, therefore, that Regent's-park must be
ill looked after, and he hoped the noble lord would tura his
attention to the subject. Ile wished to know, too, whether
the sums subscribel to the gardens or received for admis-
sion were paid into the Exchequer, or whether they went
towards the management of the park, and this vote was for
the balance required.
Lord SEYMOUR said the vote covered the whole ex-
penses of the parks. In answer to other questions the
noble lord also stated that there was a deputy ranger, but
he had no allowance beyond a cottage. The gardens of
Chelsea Hospital had lately been thrown open to the pub-
lic ; and it was thought that in making the new Battersea-
bridge they would Ise able to obtain sufficient stull' from
the river to fill up the canals. That would give a great
deal more room for garden, and greatly increase the
healthiness of the hospital. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that when the late governor of
the hospital died, it was determined not to appoint a
auccessor unless he would promise that the public should
be admitted. Ile (the noble lord) wrote to the Duke of
Wellington on the subject, and his grace immediately went
over to Chelsea, and made the necessary arrangements.
(Hear, hear.)
After some further coneersation, the vote was agreed to.
The next vote 3,529/. fur the expense of providing
temporary accommodation fur the houses of parliament, &c.,
was, after a short conversation, agreed to.
The next vote was 116,3851., the charge of works at the
new housss of parliament.
Viscount DUNCAN said it had been dated, at the close
of last session, that the new House of Commons would he
ready for occupation immediately after Easter in the
present session. Ile now wished to know when there was
a prospect of this tat.ing place—if indeed there was any
prospect of the new house being occupied at all ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, regretting
that the hon. member for Lancaster (Mr. Greene) was pre-
vented by Moose from being in the house that night, said he
did nut believe the new house would be ready fur permanent
occupation this session. lie thought it desirable that they
should have one or two experimental sittings in it in the
course of the ses.ion, to try how the new arrangements an-
swered. (A laugh.)
Mr. WA %ITN said he should be glad to know whether,
now that the alterations were made, anybody could hear or
be heard there ? He understood the cost of these altera-
tions had been upwards of 14,0001.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
did not remember the sum voted for that purpose ' but he
was sure the expenditure would be kept within that sum.
His impression was that it was either 11,0001. or 16,0001.
Mr. HUME said this was a proof of 'he advantage which
would have arisen from referring the matter to a separate
committee. The way in which this business had been con-
ducted was literally a farce. They were now asked to vote
67,800!. " on account of the carcase works of the buildings
generally, and fur the ordinary finishing, of the official re-
sidences fur the Speaker and other officers." Then there
was a further sum of 11,2001. " on account of contingent
works external to the buildings." What were those external
contingent works? For " warming and ventilating
works- other 8,0001. was asked, after the expen-
diture of so many thousands on the same object.
For "fittings, fixtures, and furniture," there was an item
of 13,5001. • "fur superintendence and contingent ex-
pews," 9,00/.; " on account of new arrangements in Dr.
Reid's apparatus," &c., 1,105•.; and " the salaries of Dr.
Reid knd his assistants," 1,2801. It was stated in a note to
this estimate that the ornaments were to be finished in nine
yews from the Ist of April, 1851, which would be in 1860
—would the house not be ready fur permanent occupation
till then ? (Laughter.) Nothing could be more discredit-
able to the character of the House of Commons than the
building of these houses. (lad they taken his advice four
or five years ago and removed Mr. Barry, the houses would
now have bees finished ; u it was, he had no hope of ever
seeing them completed as lung as the architect was per-
mitted to spend the public money in building roofs that
were useless, then taking them down, getting fresh money
voted, and putting up other experimental roofs—all in de-
fiance of the wishes of the house. Ile blamed the goverment
and the Chancellor of the Exchequer; it was on them the re-
aponsibility rested and not on the hon. member for Lan' aster.
The total cost would very nearly approach two millions, ;
and after all this expenditure there was not an apartment
in the whole building fit for occupation. The new roof that
hail been put into the House of Commons quite destroyed
the effect of the architecture; and yet the architect was
supposed to be a man of taste, and to carry out everything
conformable to his design. It would be necessary to put
new roofs to the whole of the committee-rooms, and to make

an entre-sol in each; for nothing could be heard in them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said his
hon. friend would remember that when the matter was
before the house last session Tarioua alteration, ■nd im-

provemcuts had been suggested in the new House of Com-
mons, and hail been adopted, very much fur the convenience
of members of parliament; and it wa. thought much better
to have a small contingent fund, out of which to defray the
cost of those alterations, than to throw them upon the esti-
mate which had been voted for other purposes. He wax
not responsible in any way for the plan of this building ;
it had been settled by the houses of parliament who had
taken it out of the hands of the then government, and ap-
pointed their own committee, and that committee had
settled the whole scheme. All that the government could
be responsible for was the carrying out of the plan of the
committee. The alterations had been made, and they very
fully carried out the intentions of the committee.
Mr. HUME asked what was the use of having an archi-
tect at all if he would not set on the instructions given Sian
After a few words from Mr. WAWN and the CUANCELLOI
of the Excitant:ma,
The vote was agreed to, u was a sum of 7,000!. "to-
wards defraying the expense of the erection of a general
repository for public records" (in all 45,320/.),
Lord SEYMOUR stating, in answer to Mr. Hume, that
the proposed building would receive the whole of the re-
cords in the several detached building. new existing.
61,41111., "on account of the works of the new packet
harbour and harbour of refuge at Holyhead, and to defray
the expense of the present harbour establishment at Holy-
head."

Col. DUNNE said that many objections had been made
by the people of Dublin and Liverpool against the choice of
Holyhead a. a harbour of refuge. An inquiry took place,
and a report was made, which still left the matter doubtful
whether the harbour would be sufficient fur the purpose.
Some eminent engineers had stated that tho total cost
would be 1,800,0001. or 2,000,0001. Was it desirable to in-
cur such a cost, and then be obliged to abandon the work?
It was unexceptionable as a packet station, but as a har-
bour of refuge the report left many points in doubt.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
had been three or four commissions and two parliamentary
committees on this subject, by whom the claims of the com-
peting harbours and the expense that would be incurred had
been sifted to the utmost. The result of the commission ap-
pointed in 1847, which reported in favour of the harbour as
it stood, had been upon the whole confirmed. Then a com-
mittee of that house had sat, with Mr. Ward, then Secretary
of the Admiralty, as chairman, ant a number of members,
partly named by the house and partly selected. They in-
quired with very great diligence, re-examined the whole
matter, and came to an unanimous recommendation of the
plan that had been acted upon since. lie really did not
know how it was possible to do more than had been done in
this case. To stop to re-examine and re-investigate the
matter would be a great loss of money, with no probability
of coming to any other conclusion than that which had been
arrived at on use former occasion.. Ile believed the works
were progressing in a very satisfactory manner, and, as far
as appeared, would be rather above than below the esti-
mates that had been made. More could not be said in favour
of any undertaking.
Mr. HUME said it was desirable that the government
should send down a competent engineer to inquire into the
progress of the works, and to ascertain whether the objec-
tions that had been made to the harbour really existed.
After some conversation,
Sir F. T. BARING, after detailing the steps taken by
the committees end commissions, said that hon. members
need entertain no fear of the harbour being bolstered up
by public money, though unfit for its purpose. It was
well known to be an easy matter, in any ease, to get
opposing opinions of engineers and surveyors in reference
to any work ; and if no great public work was to be under-
taken till the engineers were perfectly 1/111111iM0111 there
would be no hope of its being executed. (Hear.)
Mr. HASTIE expressed his belief that the harbour
would not answer as a harbour of refuge, and that it
would not be generally supported by merchants as a packet-
station.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 144,0001. to defray the expenses (18M) of
constructing harbours of refuge,
Mr. HUME wished to know why they had not the state-
ment of the particulars before them ? They were entitled
to have a report laid b:lore them every six months; yet
since 1830 they had had no report. He, therefore, felt
bound to move the postponement of the vote instil they bad
the report detailing the progress made in the works before
them. (Hear, hear.) He should persevere until ho learned
what were the intentions of government with regard to the
Channel Islands.