The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

EVENING, APRIL 20, 1847.

. .
certain rules laid down, la tholhotnity with the original in- I
tendon that the application of tide sum should he, generally t
speaking, for ichouli whisk Mowed the rules and mourns i
of the National Society sad of the British and Foreign I
School Society. The question which I have mentioned I
never arose. It has, however, been asked einee, and having I
referred to the minutes of 1839 in tinier to see what is i
there stated on this subject, we find that it confines the i
giants then to be made to those ethools in which the script 1
tures are read daily. I have stated already that I think that
by the term "the ecriptures," in all general understanding I
at those words, is intended the authorised version of the
Kelp. urea; and, aceordingly, when we meant otherwise we
took care to mention particulars, and to state that the Douay
yersiou would be read. (Hear.) Then the question is whether,
if there should be a desire on the part of the Boman Catho-
lics to have catholic schools in certain districts placed in
came:ion with the committee of council on education, an ap-
plication for that purpose should be entertained? I for one,
should be in favour of, ntertaining it; but I think the greatest
care must in that case be taken in the framing of tae minutes.
I think that it would not do for us to support any schools to
be established in connexion with monasteries in this country.
I think likewise that schools set up which protestant chil-
dren might attend, but in which they might have no oppor-
tunity of readier/ the bible daily, would be very olijectionable.
(Hear, hear.) That there might be other schools I can well
conceive to be possible ; but I own I see no re her means of
avoiding this difficulty, which seises from the minute of
1839, and nut from the minute of 1816, and which, so far as
I am aware, has net raised any practical difficulty, and I
see no reason for raising the difficulty at all at the present
moment. I think thY, after having been a-ked, as we have
been, by clergymen of the Church of England, sod by
others, whether the authorised version of the scriptures
was meant; having referred to this minute, stating
that it was meant; and belief; received applications
for the whole of the 100,0001. now to be voted, it is not de-
, arable to extend any part of the proposed sum to Roman
' catholic schools. I believe that about half a million has
already been spent under the direction of the Lords of the
Treasury and the Committee of Council on Education, and
if that half million, I de not think • singl, shilling has been
glen for the purposes of purely Roman catholic schools.
(Hear, hear.) I do not myself "see the advantage, merely
the sake of placing a stumbling-block in our way, of
amine to any immediate decision on that subject. ("Hear,
beer," and a laugh.) But, sir, such being the propose], and
the difficulty being so great with regard to any other scheme,
the question which I now have to aek this house is,
whether they think there is any sufficient reason
for instituting an inquiry, "whether the regulations at-
tached " to this scheme of the goverann tot " do not unduly
increase the influence of the crown, invade the constitutional
functions of parliament, and interfere with the religious
convictions and the civil rights of her Majesty's subjects."
I have touched on the " constitutional functions of parlia-
ment;" I have stated, and I trutt I have shown, that we
do net interfere with " the religious convictions and the
civil rights of her Majesty's subjects." Witb regard to
" the influence of the crown," I certainly supposed, until I
saw the objection made, that if one part of the minutes of
council were carried into effect, the influence of the creme,
instead of being increased, would be diminished by the ope-
ratien of this scheme. With regard to the whole of that
part of the scheme which relates to stipendiary monitors,
to pupil teachers, and to muter, of schools, the giants
will be made on the report of the inspeetors
appointed by different administrations, honestly performing
their duty, and declaring who are the most tit persons to
receive the grants ; and no monitor ens pupil teacher, when
seven or eight years hence he comes to his majority, and ac-
quirea a vote, will feel himself in the least degree bound to
the minister of the day, whoever he may be, merely beceure
ho has at a former period received • grant of money, under
dr report of an inspector. (Hear, hear.) With regard hi '
toe point, that as a great many of these young men will not
be employed as schoolmasters, some o: them might receive
employment in the different branches of the revenue, that
maggertion was originally made, I believe, in this house by
*g molds friend the present Secretary of State far
the Colonies, when the right honourable gentleman
wash" (Sir R. Peel) was in office, and my noble friend in
ippodtion. The object was to afford some kind of reward
M in additional mauve to the acquiring a good education,
air as an inducement to parents to send their children to
schools. It might, however, be supposed, from the language
mad on this subject, that we were about to create an im-
mense number of new offices under the crown, for the wake
of these young people. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) There
will, in fact, be just the same number of revenue offices to
• be filled as before; but, when recommendations are given for
the different departments, instead of parties merely saying
that the gentleman whom they recommend is • stanch
political adherent of the minister, besides, perhaps,
reeding end writing well, and being in all ether
respects well qualified, for example, to be an excise-
men (laughter) they will be able to say that
besiles reading and writing well, he knows his geography
and history, and has been well brought up, and they will
altogether omit the reference to his political qualifications.
(Laughter.) As to this being a great scheme for the increase
at government patronage, it is really the most idle of appre-
'llersions. (Hear, hear.) Sir, with regard to one other
print which is touched upon, and perhaps was intended to
ha touched upon, in this reeolutioo, there is, I am aware,
what I think is a very great hardship in many of the church
@shoots of this country—a refusal to allow children to come
so those schools unless their parents will let them Isere the
satechism, and attend church on the Sunday. (Hear. hear.)
With regard to that rule, however, we neither alter it nor
encourage it by this scheme. (Hear.) It we had made it a
thodltionofanyof the grants that the fundamental rules of these
sehools should be departed from, we should perhaps have
lost the advantage of having the schools well conducted,
and the pupil teachers well-instructed. But, Sir, for my
part I cannot but thisk that the church itself would gain a
great advantage if it allowed parents to send their children
to its schools, without insisting upon their either learning
the catechism, or attending church on the Sunday. (" Hear,
' hear," and cheers.) I believe that the rule of the Wesleyan
body which allows parents to act on their religious convic-
tions in that respect, is a much wile r, and a mach more
charitable rule—(hear, hear) ;--and I ales believe that it
does not tend in the least degree to the diminution of the
bed, which acts upon it. I shall see with pleasure an
improvement in the rule ou that subject adopted in church
ethools ; but I do not think that this gran: of 100,0001 t, of
which part wide to the established church, would justify par-
liament in imposing upon voluntary societies any regulations
which they might ndlaiijatised to carry out by themselves.
Itlay again, that I should be glsd to see a change'
in 'this respect; and if any small body of die-
.sinters, in prenieular places, should say that the
children would lie sent to the church schools, but that
they could not on account of the rule which I have men-
tioned, I think that would be a reason for granting - addi-
tional aid to those schools which the children might attend,
without being placed in that position. (Hear, hear.) But,
Sir, the question is, the scheme being, as I admit,
in many respects, imperfect—the question is, whether you
will not, in some way, try to combag an evil which Dr.
Vaughan describes iii terms that I will fides read :
"rises elindren—the children of 1015W10011 sat poverty—are al-
most emeywhere powlag ap es on* odes AY wit he Issquestlied
MY Waist. dad wlln se It tast wep. this AM OW ekes.
.that areas are grabolog moll The pest mess et
AY being diewarbes unismilrosted. by no adequate of
Ma valise et lanYles ; awl their swot elm scams to to dent
their athirst leer a Source of treat as soon sad as
largely es pawed& The Yost is end* that the esemet pittance
may he gaol hem hoi Mt or the hatorp. . Lst limn mode un-
retmelledthishitheinate he any fa a sight dogma owe MEW-
eiteast let any drew lit tem gen
eiaret or aim me mom el eoloyargat. ma to
the Akan of West go may Moe to add Oa op
water the Imo arm et omikaol weenhetonie to Leland:
end Woe modem learrignery the toner et tbmirimmet omormmat
meg he ae mph& sad. Wes km whoa we meet 111, e Th.
it:4=d ess ate yawl greatness Irma Yelaremery . le
. II pay on present canoe b to end Ilnie —Ps
so A greet aragirslibilberms hare perished, our lostamee ear,
oleo bath. loatro lawasor dm our bowled,' sot or eletain.
Mr, I cent* bet trotaist, after reading that pamogo, and
Wag hogoaleod whitles beak that its author albriii be an
at of doe pawn' orlon of ed 'mattes. (Rem, hear.)
Tartir:y earn peak min that the evil is so gnat, I am not
.="to wait until I ens get a more general sad st more
aebeese. (Chew..)l am disposed rather to feel my
way, and be proceed as Isr as we can ; until at length, per-
haps, amay find soy inky* on which the great mass of
intelligent opinion is this country will unite, end then I
shall be twat happy to ass embodied in an act of parliament
the provisions whath have met with such concurrence. In
the mean time math yew for these means, inadequate as they
are with • view of dispelling in some degree the ignorance
which prevails, and premsoung religion and virtue among
'the great mass of our people. We salt of you this, although
well aware of the condemnation which this scheme has met
with, well aware that it would have been far t atiier to have
shrunk from the task and not to have asked this house to
strata anything beyond the millions upon millions which
have already been voted for the military purposes of this
country. It would have been easier, I repeat, to have said,
" Let an have additional millions for our army, our navy,
and our ordnance, but we win not ask for a mingle farthing
for the purposes of education.' But, sir, that would not
have been consistent with the duty which we feel prewng•
upon us, to improve, as far as in us lies, the school
teaching in this country—to assist, as far as in 11.1 lies,
in giving a knowledge of the ways of virtue, an ao-
quaintatos with the truths of religion,-to many of
UM uninstructed masses of this country. (Hear, hear.)
And, be the opposition what it may, however formidable it
may be at this moment, however formidable it may be fend
I lament to say that such is the case) in withdrawing from
us the aid end support of many who, " throush good report
and evil report," have supported us in our political course—
be that evil what it may, it will be a consolation to ma that
I have made an attempt to diminish the empire of ignorant*,
and to raise the people of this country in the scale of virtue
end religion among the nations of the world. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he should be the last inetvidual
in that house to eemptitn of the course which the noble lord
had taken en that oeoasion. During the 20 years that he
bed eat in that house be did not recollect any instance of a
prime minister paying so great • compliment to an indivi-
dual member es to condescend to endeavour, if possible, to
prejudice beforehand a motion of which that member had
gine nodes. (Hear bear.)) The noble lord might speak,
if be plowed, of hie (Yr.T.Duncomben) idle apprehensiou ;
bat he had the eoneolatton to know that the apprehensions,
. which be entertained were participated in by thousands, sad
even millions, of his fellow.oeuntrymen. The noble
lord had spoken of his (Mr T. Duneom'te's) oils
tion as • motion of ceniure upon the govermnent,
and of want of oinfidence in her Majesty's Privy Council.
however, the noble lord might choose to treat the motion, he
certainly had no confidence in that selto li red tribunal, the
commit ee of council on education. Whatever might be the
tate of the motion, it would not fell because there was any-
thing u•reatanable in the r' quest, or inconsistent with
perlienientary metre. If it radial, it would be because of the
i ability ii any individual and independent member of the,
house to scope with the Ellitll,ll.rita influence brought to
bear agaiwit his motion and a:so because of those agree-

meets and understandinera, if not menial and absolute ,
which had been made both with members of the established
church and with certain portious of the dissenting community, 1
enmpacts and understandings which were most disgraceful to
those who called themselves a liberal ministry, and had acted
thus in the face of their former principles and their avowed I
opinions He felt at that moment that he had the support
and the good wishes of i large purtien of his fellow-country-
men. Since giving the notice, he had ree.ived from all parts :
of the country communications in reference, to it, asking I
hire to persevere, decOring that the house would neglect
its duty if it aid not o,dain further information before :
itgoted away the pule:c money, for &scheme, which, note ith-
standing what had fallen from the noble lord, he was pre-
pared to maintain was doegerous is civil and religious
liberty, increasing the power of the crown, invasive of, or
actually supersedieg the functions of parliament, and unjust ,
to that portion of tne community who would be compelled
to contribute to the support of the system, without deriving
from it say benefit. Moreover, the scheme was one which
would not attain the objects sought, though it would carry
discord, jealousy, and dissension into every locality where
it was introduced. The noble Ind had told them
that undue influence or intimidation had been used,
to overawe the members of that house, and
prevent them from doing their duty on that occasion. He
(Mr. T. Dulicomb,,) se..uld like to know what courses had
been adopted on the other side in order to secure demonstra-
tions in favour of the measure. In 1839 her Majesty's mi-
nisters postponed a minute which they then proposed, in
consequence, as they said, of not being able to reconcile the
differences which existed, and of the necessity of obtaining a
greater concurrence of public opinion. He would ask whe-
ther it could be said, after the petitions presentee that after-
noon and on former clays, that there was anything like
a concurrence of public opinion in favour of this scheme?
The noble lord, perhaps, felt himself strong in having
bought off the opposition of the Wesleyan', and secured the
supp_ot of a portion of the established church. He (Mr. T.
Duncombe) denied that the established church, as a whdle,
woe in favour of the scheme ; and he believed that when the
mem& rs of the establis, ed church knew its nature exactly.
the greatest portion of them would refuse to give their adhe-
sion to this new-tangled scheme of the government. He
had that evening presented a petition from thirteen clergy-
men of the diocese of York, who were now beginning
to understand this plan, and who objected to the
scheme, as degrading the spiritual pastors of pa-
Astir% by placing them in the position of assistant-
teachers to the committee of council. In a letter which se-
compauied the petition, it was slat. d that most of the clergy
were a. yet quite in the dark in reference to the real nature
of the scheme. Now, the petitions in favour of the scheme
came chit fly from ministers and moorhen of the established
church. When it suited his purpose, the noble lord had no
objection to get public opinion ie his favour; but, happily,
in the present instance, all his ex, rtions had not sufficed to
secure it. In this country there were twelve or thirteen
thousand parishes. The noble lord had presented fifty or
sixty petitions and this, alter all Lord Ashley's
coquetting, first with the established church, and
then with the Wesleyan. I laughter.) A petition had
been ft at from the central committee in favour et the scheme,
of which committes Lord Ashley was chairman, to different
parties whom it was intended t o conceiate. The boa. mem-
ber then read a letter addressed " Reverend Sir," urging
the party addressed to pre cure signatures to a petition which
was enclo-ed, in favour of the government scheme. These
petitions (he ecintinued) were all cut and dried from
Kay Shuttleworth's pattern, and were sent
down, he supposed, direct from the Privy Council..
It w .4 requested that the petition might be sent, prepared,
either to the writer or to Lord John Russell, 32, Cheshant-
piece ; his lonkitip having kindly consented to take charge
of all such petitions. (Laughter.) The letter was signed,
" Yours very faithfully, Henry Hughes, M.A., Incumbent
of All Saiuts', Gordon-equre. But now came the postscript,
which, like many other postscripts, was of the greatest im-
portance : " I have authority to state, that under the exist-
ing minutes the authorised version of the scriptures must be
read daily in all schools aided by the g,,vernment." (Hear.)
It was noticeable that the noble lord, when he spoke of the
deficiency of education among various sects, took no notice
of the Roman catholice. lie (Mr. Duncombe) had an ac •
count, extracted from the Catholic Directory for 1846,"
whereby it appeared that out of 66,307 Roman catholic
children requiring to be educated in the principal districtsof
England and Wale. only 30,207 were now receiving educa-
tion, leaving some 3'5,100 de-iieute of any educational pro-
vision. How was it, he should like to know, that these im-
portant facts and figures had not attracted the attention of
the noble lord? Could it be true, as had been rumoured,
that the compromise with the church—with the party re-
presented by Mr. Henry Hughes—was not the only com-
promise effected by the government? What thought they
of "compromise with the Wesleyan'. at the expense of the
Roman catholic' ? There had been—probably most mem-
bers had read it—a correspondence wits Sir Culling Esrdlry
Smith, upon this subject, from which it appeared that, up
to the latest moment, the government would give no sada-
fictory reply to the inquiries mad. of them, as to what
theyintended regarding the Roman catholic*. But
a paper which he held in his band would explain all.
It was sett to him by a gerelernan on whom he could rely,
and it purported to be an account of what had occurred be-
term7 the government and the Wesleysns upon this subject.
" About a fortnight ago," said his informant, " at the Cen-
tenary-hall of the Weeleyans in Bi.hopegatestreet, their
commietees upon eduction end upon privileges were sum-
moned to hold a meet ng. They were convened for the pur-
pose of framing resolutions condemnatory of the government
plan of education which at previous meetings they had
determined to oppose. Before the meeting commenced the
members assembled were requested to receive a communica-
tion from Lord Ashley, who, it appeared, was waiting to see
them. Lord Ashley stated to the meeting that he was com-
missioned to negotiate with On m on behalf of the govern-
ment, upon the principle that all schools should be excluded
from grants in which the authorised version" of the Scriptures
were not used. The object of this negotiation could
not be misunderstood, and it was very agreeable to the
Wesleyan body, especially as it would be observed that
the negotiation originated with the government. It was re-
solved iu ooexquenee to adjourn the deliberations of the
committees te Manchester where they would have the be-
nefit of the counsel and assistance of some of their induce-
tial associates and friends in the manufacturing districts
Meetings were accordingly held there on Thursday and •
Friday, the Bth and 9th. of Aprd, when it was determined
to open • direct communicatioa with the members of the '
Privy Council. Accordingly a meeting was held at Lana-
downs Hawse, en Wedandey, Apeil 14, when a deputation I
beaded by Dr. Beating, met Lord Ls9sdowne and Lord J. 1
Russell, and where It was agreed that the existing minutes I
should be construed to apply to abed" using the authorised
versidn of the Scriptures, but that the government
should not be precluded from issuing fresh minutes if
they saw fit upon the subject of the Roman Catholic
schools, nor the Wesleyans, if they saw fit, be precluded
from offering such minutes all the opposition in their
power. At the same meeting the following concessions were
also made: first, that the church schools receiving aid,
should be required to receive as scholars the children of
Wesleyan parents, without forcing them to learn the catechism
or to attend church ; and second, that no person in hbly
orders should hold any office as master of a school receiving
government grants; this prepoaition being iatroduced in
order to defeat a scheme of the Bishop of Exeter's for ad-
mitting schoolmasters to hale orders after a certain proba-
tion." That was the treaty, offensive and defensive, as he
was informed of it.
Mr. MACAULAY : It's a mere romance! (Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. DUN CO Id BE : A mare romance was it ? He trusted
it would prom so. He trusted it would be found that
Roman Catholics were not to be excluded from participating
in the grants made to the schools. The sooner they
proved that to be a " mere romance" the better ; for he
held in his hand a petition against the measure emanating
from the Roman Catholics of Leeds, being one of many to
the same purport sent to him and to other members to pre-
sent. The government would at least admit that there was
no romance in that : on the contrary, that ft was a stern
reality, (' Hear," and laughter.) But, "peaking of." mere
romance,' let him asEthe right hon. gentleman whether he
recollected the speeches which had been made on the occa-
sion of Lord Stanley's motion in that house, when bcth he
and the noble viscount at the le ad of the Woods and Forests
(Viscount Morpeth) expressed themselves anything bat of
opinion that Roman Catholics aught to be excluded from
their share of government support ? Looking at the view
then taken by the party now in power, he could not but
stigmatise theft present concession as a base and truckling
concession, highly disgraceful to those who bad, on former
occasions, sogallantly combated the spirit of " No Popery.",
Dare they have made such • concession if Mr. O'Connell
had been in hh plate in parliament ? Dare they have
created this new disability if there had been any spirit of
daring or independence among the Roman Catholic mem-
bers now within that house? He did trod that it
would not go forth to the people that the Protestant mem-
bers of parliament were those who alone were prepared to
fight the Roman Catholic battle on this occasion ? Would
the hon. member fcr Dungareon (Mr. Sheik) go into the
lobby with the government. and thereby cast a reproach on
his faith, and suffer Catholics to be taxed for the support of
Protestant education ? Surely, surely, Catholics would
never In this reproach be cost on their religion. It would be
hard, indeed, on them were their faith to be as stigmatised ;
r and he trusted that they, and many others in that house,
would concur in refusing to vote one shilling of the public
money for this scheme until all sects were shown to be able
I I to participate squally in its advantages. (Hear, hear.) But
he now came to consider some of the details of the bill. It
: was remarkable that the noble Ford had said nothing as to
the probable cost. Wm there any one present who could
; say within one half million what would be the cost of cam-
, log out this plan ten years hence ?
; An. /lON. MEMBER : A penny per head.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE —A penny per head, said the ben.
I member. That was his caleulation; but there were others
I who calculated it et somewhat about two millions per annum.
Then how was the measure brought forward ? No doubt it
; was thought in the privy council to be a very clever plan to
gRO: Talk k:s
dvt
eD:rddlr
..r ha
inetE sthtyh.
ied be
musical kg:e:
taught,—vocal
make the Lord President. lay these minute' on the table of
on
the House of Lords without any prefatory remarks. As
they were not to be decided by the lords—as they only cons-
, prehended a money vote, which was a matter for the Hoar
of Commons—it was no doubt thought s very clever plea t•
lay the papers on the table without an observation. Mak
doubtless, was the view of the Lord President. " Tele"
them," said be, " read thews, digest them, if you ; it ha
. great condescension in me even to hriog them down to
was three ever such a piece of quack-
, you, so read them, pay your money, and be gratead."
; e(rylAupghutter.toge) Bthuetr ?
lual
au elf Dr.
ghter.)
thegt.n,.s) quackery
x pills—wasey of t
ir;
lasses used
the pons dsrvrilasing4luSehe';kelairda"ali under
the
r parochial clergy! (Relic wed !auk hter,) One or two things,
however, were not to be taught ; and, POI great adoiiration
- had been expressed of the system of education in Switzer-

land, he would notice one great omission in what was os..
sidered in Switzerland an essential element of edasesiea
He referred to instruction in the rights and duties of tins...
ship. ("Hear, bear," from Dr. Bowrieg.) Why Amid
not Englishmen be taught the duties of citizens : are, sett
the rights of citizens, too 1—(" hear," from W. we.
liams)—and why should not the constitutional history er
our country be put into the hands of our children?
But anoth, r rave objection was, that, under this reheat,
the rural districts would be neglected. It was ossuary
twice the amount of local contributions should be pees
Tided, in order to secure a government grant. Naar it
was notorious, :hat there were many parts of the
country where not 201. nor lfil. per suntan could be ranee
fur educational purposes, and yet those very districts, which,
perhaps, required government ansiotance the meet, week";
altogether deprived of it. (Hear, hear.) He then cause to the
industrial school question. There were many parte of the
country in which these industrial schoels were I.adcen t
pm
as absurdities, but there were other listricto in which tee,
were viewed with alarm. Working men, is many
districts, were of opinion that in the present
of active competition, caused by redundancy. of liner,
it would he impenible fur them to compete with
the produce of the labour of these industnal scnoon.
As regarded the learners in these workshops of trades, whiz
would be the effect? Judging from the exp, rinses ef the
industrial schools, the instruction given to them in skilled
trades would be so imperfect, that before they mud I now
into legitimate competition with other workmen, they nig
unlearn what they had acquired in the eovertunent week.
shops. In their design, however, these establishments mast
be regarded as a government combination &minx the has
industry of the country. The greatest efforts had Wes
made by government agents of all sorts is the me.
nufactunng districts, to obtain the adhesion of the linen
ing classes to this scheme ; but these attenpn
had signally failed. Those clines were too enlibletied
and too acute to he taken in by such a barefaced at empt to
enslave and shackle them. At Birmingham, for enzaple,
where pi culiar exertions had been m .de to win near the is.
duetrial population, the plan had b, en rejeetedat agents/let
ing of the wurkiog-clesses, by an overwhelming majority(
vane, its the proportion of no fewerthan Ino to 1. The pane...
duct of the council of education had been such as to devotee
it of toe confidence of the people, utterly drginti il with its
glaring partiality towards schools in connexion e the es-
tablished church. Only the other day the cb :nun of a
public meeting ou the aubjeet, stated a ,yes with,
in his on n immediate knowledge, where tl • council
had only given fifty pounds towards a dissenting
school, to which 3501 had been subscribed by p irate libe-
ran y, whereas, in another case occurring at the ante time,
wherein parties had contributed 800/. for • sch din OM-
unzion with the established church, the council 1.. d given no
less than 800/. more, the intrinsic merits being n greater in
the one instance than in the other. A pamphlet had been
issued by Dr. Shuttleworth—at the public cost —in which
that gentleman, after giving an account of strike at
Preston, u d of the loves which the workmen there had
undergone in Consequence, threw the whole blaue upon the
ignorance which he stated to be the cease of that strike,
whereas the real blame should be imputed, not to the
employed, united against the oppression of their
employers, but to the employers, bonded
i
most wrongfully to keep down the operatic, . (:=1 )
Government, however, might rest assured that tic working
draws would not again resort to any unmeanin, or ineffee
teal strikes. They knew better how to proceed non. They're,
now rapidly forming one great national united trades twin,
extending throughout the country, and embraeim: all trade,
creating a large fund, which should at once relieve then in
the hour of need, and render them independent it all. end
marten as should seek to oppremthem and to meet their ob.
Inkling all they asked—a fade day's wage fur t fairday's
labour. By means of this union, any branch of trs throw
out of employment hy the combination of mitten n say part
of the country, would have the raw material r their in
duotry placed at their disposal, and be thui rendered indifferiet
whether their late moisten took them back or not. The
I scheme was already in successful operation, and mon
beneficial effects of it to the working classes had .teen
brought within Ms knowledge the other day when he waist
Nottingham. The motives of the dissenters, in their open
sition to the goy. rnment plan now before the house lud
been moot discreditably misrepresented by its favourers, and
among others by the Rev. Mr. Hughes. he had already
referred to, who, in a petition to the how, had vi attired to
impute to the dissenting body that it hod bun guilty
of direct falsehoods in its arguments apainst thi scheme,
whereas every statement advanced by the diner :en was
based upon the most careful and conscientious inn gigatica
of facts and of experience. Ile did not uuderstand way the
noble lord should object to the appointment of a a:ratline&
He had not intended his motion a- a censure upon the go-
vernment, but certainly, if the noble lord chose to ri it led
as a motion of want of confidence in the govemmett
measure, he was quite at liberty to do so. He midden
that the manner in which the prinent government h .d bees
creating patronage for itself was most disgrace ful. See nein
tronage creates' under th (Railway Bill, under the LeeslOssits
Bill, under the Health of Towne Bill, by the inttitutiesoft
new biehopries, upon one of which, no doubt, the Rey Kr.
Hughes had his eye. Why, it was monstrous: and now thus
was to he the vont patronage, increasing year after year, ands
this education scheme. By means of all this patronage, the
government would be in a position to spread corruption
throughout the country. The noble lord himself admitted
that there were grave objections to the messu•e. Why not
allow these objections to be fairly represented before a con-
mittee of the house, by men who weir reedy and willies,
who were anxious to substantiate them / If the unit Ind
persisted in avo.ding the probe of such an inquiry, it wont
be manifest to all that he knew there was something in the
scheme which would not bear the light of day, cud that in
object was to increase the power and influence (tithe arnt.e,
rather than the instruction of the people, the result bmeg
that instead of our being a better erluoared p male, we shoal
be an endive.. d and corrupted people. The hon. gentleman
concluded lay moving as an ameudment
• •

a
TO it previous to my greed elf any ;midi, mnrusy being ware'
b)! thin for the passed eirryilut out the reheroe of nettoad
se developed In time sikeutes of the committee of camel
onedseatne to Aug** end Deseinticr teat (which minute's have tee
paged to both bones ef pedieetent by command of her MMwty,
• abet comisteste be wide& to Weeks IMO the fur.iae nano,
=tool same, sad ler probable emus' cot; Wm, to Inure,itee•sepitedessetteithed Om= do net unduly Ma me. the
Inflamed tie mows, Meade es esietttutional functions of paths.
went, sod Medea with the tel and the civitrighti
of her Majesty's =beets.
Viscount DUNCAN seconded the amendment. Re could
assure the noble lord that nobody regretted his hostile
pogitioa more than he (Lewd Duncan) did but be was seat
there. by a huge' constituency, who required him ea Inns,
tigate earefitily every 'rant of the public meaty, the tbsir
part ha =Masted against the plan of the goverament, and
should support the amendment of his hon. friend. •
Sir R. INGLIS would nut pretend to say that he looked
on the minutes of the privy council with any specie) favour,
but he considered them asan establish= feet ; and illthougl
be still looked upon the church as the only proper eitliority
ho which ought to be delegated the national reaounes for
educational purposes, he was contented to take thy 'rem-
ment plan, not only cheorfully, but thankfully. (Hear, best.)
Admitting the fundamental defect he had mentioned, he
thought that this plan was a better one than could bars been
expected from any other combination of parties in the
house. (Laughter.) He believed that upon the whole
—carding out the principle announced eight • non
before, and which the dissenters supported—that phe
would lead to measures of very considerable
'lmprovement. He agreed in so much of the plan, tint la
was almost reluctant to mention the points on which be die
agreed. His great objection was to nassactifled edr
cation—education .not founded on sound religiose JO*
ciplea. (Rear, hint). Comparisons had been „olds
between the relative amounts of crime and 'dudes,
the °beet of which was to show that as the lated eel
absent, so the former predomlnand ; but be saidi
produce tables to show when the spread De vie
cation had led to the increase of crime. LOS,
it was self-evident that unless education taught a area his
duty to Ood, mere reading and writing would prove lut very
imperfect blessings. It was, then, became he end del
government had prosided for the religious jaundiced*
children, and also for inspection at regular periods, Ibis In
gave the' plan his hearty support. He saw no reustuntioad
objection to the nomination of a committee of the Win
council. The house had nothiug to do with it. Item des
by the minister on his responsibility, which could he toed
when he came belbre the house for his annual veto Ss
begged again, in conclusion, to repeat that he gave his cheer
ful and that:Lira' support to the measure.
Mr. MACAULAY said he offered himself to the adier d
the house as a member of that commithe of council who
conduct was called in question. His lime act, at a Sob°
' of that committee, had been to give hie hearty assent= tie
minutes of last December; be was, therefore, odd,l*
who had been accused throughout the country,
thei
house, of aiming a blow at an religious and uric liberties d
his countrymen end he was naturally desirous of the &stoles
tunity to vindicate himself from so foul a charge. Re lield.del
it was the right and duty of the state to provide for the *dun
Lion of the common people. (Hear, hear ) The aelfs°l°
' by which this might be proved, though perfectly simple :d
obvious were the roost cogent possible. Ingenione rate
differed= to what were the ends of government. Boom oit
held, very erroneously, that it was the duty of goversadl
to meddle with the whole system of human life; to retell"
trade by prohibitions and bounties; agriculture by soMPOI
!awe; literature by censorships ; raligiou by penal stamen
cat
s!
tests. Others had gone into the opposite estrus, Isa
down the province of government to too narrow LISS
Os
one point all agreed,—that it was the sacred duty of WI;
I meat to take efficient measures for securing the psmeder
property of the community ; and that a government woo.
neglected this duty was unconstitutionaL Could le
be denied that the education of the common pelvis I'l'7
. met efficient means of protecting persons and profff%
I On this subject, no higher authority or struager tarsies
oval
s•
. be quoted than those of Adam Smith, who wes
t friendly to the interference of the statc with the d•
• of the ocher and higher orders. But be distinctly Ileue„.4
f there was a diderence, and particularly in a high) l OITy
.aad commercial commanity, between the educates?
• higher dams and that of the poor. In the lattskeeet
Iprebended the government were deeply cootothed teen
• ignorance, he said, was like a leprosy, or some otherg.
, disease, which it was the duty of the public asiree
t
to stop, and the neglect of this duty led to =WI ~,"
6 frightful disorder'. Soaneele bad Smith written Shier!:
• a most significant and fearful commentary 011 his words
' furnished by the riots of 1780. (Hear, heat
• the woe cause were attributable the riots of this
fielee.ottiiang.hame;a6thucout.t,regcs of..."C•pthteaLSwws.... g;'
nery,--ou.treges which ten di d above all to deitieSeht.',,,,,
the level of the interior animals, Was it pima
ble we I
that th, se things—which operated as a my on the SO=
interests that government was clearly bound to en;
, would have taken place in a country were '•vr:d
cd mnion Intimate had had his rulehd opsu
• education; had been taught to fi,,d vino"