The Express.
London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EUNING, MARCH 21, 1848.

the holies had protease= its approbation of the proposition
that the income tax should be continued for three years, it
was not his intention to offer any further objection at the
present time; but he hoped to be allowed now to suggest
that when the bill,
ht would be founded oa these resolu-
tions, was brought in, it should be referred to a
select eammittee up stairs, in order to the re-
moval, if possible, of the grass and glaring evils
which arose from the mode in which the um was levied.
Sir R. H. INOLIS intimated, that on a future stage, he
should take an opportunity of drawing the attention of the
house to the expediency
the tax at a certain point.
of commenting the imposition of
Mr. SLANEY thought that some improvement might be
made on the mode in which the tax was imposed and col-
lected, and he hoped that the government would give an ear
to the suggestion made by the hommember for Montrose.
Sir D. L. EVANS begged to add his humble en-
treaties to her Majesty's government to yield to the sugges-
tionjust made. ar:.:l enciffeetOur to Modify_the ter,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to
say one word on behalf of himself and the government. lie
aud they had given their best attention to the subject, and I
though there was something plausible in some of the modifi-
cations which had been suggested, yet after full considers-
non he felt satisfied it was impossible to device any plan
that would not leave injustice still more gross and unbearable
than that which now existed under the present mode. He
and his noble friend were, however, perfectly ready to con-
eider any plan which any.hon. gentleman might suggest; but
at present all he could say was that no
.plan had yet been
suggested or proposed which, on examining the details, had
not proved more objectionable than that which at all dam
and in all countries where an income tax was levied hed
been adopted.
Dr. BOWRING was of opinion that unless some great
modifications were made it would be impossible to collect the
tax without such a resistance as would be extremely incon-
venient. The right hon. baronet had not answered the
question put by the hon, member for Montrose, and there- I
tore he (Dr. Burring) asked whether the right. hon. baronet
would consent to refer the bill to a select committee, to-
gether with the petitions which had been presented sugges-
ting various changes ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
understood that the question had been reserved to a future
opportunity. All he could say at present was that he could
not consent to !eke the bill to a select committee.
Mr. COBDEN should not have risen but for the last part
of the speech of the right hon. baronet, when he seed 'some-
what with emphasis that the income tax was levied in this
country in the same way as in other countries. Now a re-
mark bad been made the other night by the hon. member
for Glasgow (Mr. &Gregor) that in no other country but
this was an income tax levied. This was well founded, for
though in France and other countries there was a property
tax, and a heavy amount of direct taxation, still in no other
country but thus was a tax levied upon the profits of trade
or prolusion..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that he had made the statement on the authority of the
hon. member himself, who had said that in South Carolina,
in the United States, an income tax was levied for the pur-
pose of the state on profits resulting from trades and pro-
les:item. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. IiORSMAN said that the reference of the bill to a
select committee was, as he understood, objected to because
nu plan had been suggested that would not leave the ano-
malies of the law still more glaring than under the existing
system. In this respect, however, the government was at
direct issue with the public at large, aud he thought also
with a majority of the house. In many districts the feeling
was universal that some modification might be adopted ; and
therefore he thought, whatever might be the opinion., of the
government, in defirence to the public a committee of inquiry
ought to be granted.
Mr. M'GREGOR explained that when he stated the other
night that no other country levied an income tax, he meant
to confine his remark to great states and nations. It was
true that in South Carolina an income tax was levied for
local purposes, and in the free town of Frankfort the senate
had power to levy an income tax when the revenue from
ordinary sources was insufficient to meet the necessary ex-
penditure. A similar law prevailed in the free towns of
Hamburg, Bremen, and Lubeck ; but these were the only
places in which a tax on profits was levied. He regretted
that the government had not taken the tax for one year only,
in order to give time to enter more generally into the whole
question of taxation. He was aware that the country was
strongly opposed to the tax, but still he was of opinion that
it could be collected with the must perfeet
Mr. THELAWNY supported the decision to which the
house had come, though he was aware his votes on the
question had not given satisfaction to his constituents.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would cot discuss the question
as to whether or nut the modifications ought to be considered
by a Beira committee, because that matter would come
under couaideration on a future day. The lion. member for
Cockermuuth (Mr. Herrman) bed said that the disapproba-
tion of the public to the present mode of levying the tar was
universal. He (Lord J. Russell) thou ht it would be equally
so if the plan of the lion. member himself was adopted.
Ur. S. CRAWFORD protested, in the mane of his con-
stituents, against the continuance of the tax in its present
terns. They thought it ought to be remodelled and rendered
less oppressive and inquisitorial in its cliaracter.
The resolutions were then agreed to, and a bill founded
thereon vas ordered to be brought in.
On the motion that the order of the day for a committee
of supply be read,
Lord DUNCAN repeated the question he had put on the
subject of the expenditure and management of the depart-
ment of Woods and Forests. He had referred to the order
appointing the committee on the miscellaneous estimates,
and dui nut find that the Woods and Forests were included
in the matters referred.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the expenditure in relation to the royal parks, palaces, and
gardens was included.
Atter a few words from Dr. BOMBING and the CHANCEL-
Wit of the EXCURat;EX in explanation,
Lord DUNCAN intimated his intention to bring forward
his motion on Friday next, on going into a committee of
supply.
SUPPLY.—NAVY ESTIMATES.
The house then went into a committee of supply, Mr.
Bernal in the chair,
Mr. WARD rose to bring forward the navy estimates.
The hon. member said the question I have to submit to the
considersion of the committee turns upon one poi t which
the select committee upon the navy estimates has properly
refused to investigate—namely, the general policy of those
estimates which it is the peculiar attribute of the crown and
parliament to deal with. It is impossible for me to state the
question as to the number of men to be voted for the service
of the year 18489 without raising other questions involving
• large expenditure of money, and though this is the case I
will, with the indulgence of the commit;ec, endeavour
studiously to separate the two considerations. The hon.
member for Montrose, with a manliness and candour for
which I feel grateful to him, has told me that he re-
gards the question of the number of men to be
voted as the root of the evil. My hon. friend is right,
for if we have more men we must have more ships; more
building materials, larger building establishments and steam
factories end a larger Ord establishment to superintend the
additional expenditure. I go with my hon. friend entirely
in this ; I think the broad question is, how are we to dad
with the expenditure which has grown up within the last
few pen? Either we are wrong or we are right in the
course of policy. which has been pursued by parliament
during the last six years. if we are wrong, the sooner that
is proud the better, and then let parliament and the country
retrace their steps; but if we are right, then I hope nobody
will withhold or begrudge the means to gain the object in
view. There cannot be a wider difference of opinion this
exists in this matter between my honourable friends and
cot tielf. What they blame, I glory in; what they
call a profligate expenditure, I call a wise and
necessary one, and on this matter I shall to-night ail for the
decision of the committee. I speak more on the question of
principle—not on details. No doubt many mistakes have
been committed, and that much money might have been
better spent if the.e had been more time for consideration.
But to-night I have to deal simply with the general princi-
ples of that expenditure —I will show what it has effected—
what fruits it has already produced what savings may be
anticipated—what outlay still remains to be incurred—and
it will then be :or parliament and the country to pronounce
an opinion upon the policy which has hitherto been pursued.
If my hon. friend (Mr. Hume) can reduce the number of
men by 10,000, or 8,000, or 7,000 safely, then, I say, there
never was a time when that reduction was mere loudly
called for. But the question is, are we right or wroeg
in proposing to the House of Commons a vote of
1,425,3081., to cover the expenses of an establishment consist-
ing of 27,500 seamen,2,ooo boys, and 13,500 marines, making
In all • naval force of 43,000 strong ? First, then, how are
we to bring thin matter to a test ? There has been on divi-
MOll on this point of the navy estimates for the last 20 years,
with one exception. The standard has always been varying,
and yet parliament and the country has always concurred in
increasing the expenditure. The lowest vote ever taken was for
19,000 men.in the year 1817 ; and I find Vat. without any ap-
pal ent eats- thisjwas raised in 1823 to 2.5,000 men. In 1824 5
it was 29,000, and from 1826 to 1830 it was 27,000. In 183.5-6
the vote was 26,500, in 1836-7 it was 33,000 men, in 11140.1
it was 39,000, and in 1841-2 it was 43,000, just the number
now proposed. In general net a single voice has ever been
raised against this increase. I may be told that political
causes can be assigned for this, and that in those years
there were disturbances of the peace of Europe, but
that reductions took plate when tranquillity was re-
stored. I find that, in 1843-4, the force was 39,000
men, and this, in 1844-5, was reduced to 36,000.
But 36,000 men was taken as the standard of a proper peace
establishment by the right hon. baronet opposite (Sir
R. Peel), and by the right hon. baronet the member for
Ripon (Sir J. Graham), thus exceeding, by 10,000 men the
standard of 1835. The consequence appears to have been
that a single year's experience was sufficient to prove le
them the inadequacy of this vote ; and in 1845 and 46,
having raised in the previous year the force to 36,000, they
increased it, in a time of profound peace, to 40,000 ; for
proposed in 1846 and 47, an estimate for 40,000 men. We
bare cegieilliv inns.". a •'••.. 500 tairloes, and atief
propose an 'addition of 300, making the sum total
43,000. Now, why has there been, on the pert ed
this house, this constant and unvarying sequiselonne
ht
the increase of the navel estimates? There
is no stand I
love of taxation in the country. (Hear.) Nobody likes
being taxed for a useless expenditure. But there has been a
very general conviction of the fact that all power is relative
in proportion to the powers by which it is surrounded; that
it a a fluctuating and not a fixed element in the adeeletieas
of nations; that a cannot stand still while all others
are progressing' without the position which it formerly
held. _ And of ell the podin which a nation an be
placed, the molt perilous which I can conceive, and the
least to be desired for a country like this, is to have the name
of being at once wealthy sad weak—(hear)—to have • cam-
meree spreading itself over *Very sea, and a navvy unable to
afford that 00016111109 plloooooe-40 sign ip bergs made

--------------
the depete of the world, and yet no sufficient military organi-
sation• for their defence. (Hear, hoar.) I know my bon.
friend behind me (Mr. Cobden) will tell me of the softening
influence of free trade, of its tendency to link nations into
one. (Cheers.) That may be very well a hundred peen
hence; but where is there an instance of two countries being
thus united at the present time, or where is there the res-
pect of ? (Hear, hear.) Where is the tan to which a
practical and distinguished man like the hon. memberlfor
the West Riding can point, as a just ground for decreasing
the naval defences of this country ? Can be urea it nratae
ground that, fifty years hence, we may have !Vest commer-
cial relations springing up with countries with which we are
at prevent connected by no commercial ties ? Then
I am told, by men too of great authority, that
we are to look to the spread of democratic institutions
and the growth of popular influence, as n security for peace.
I, of course, cannot look into futurity; but, looking to the
put, I find the moot ,).emocratic states have been the most
aellfiflous and tt.e moat warlike. (Cheers.) We have all
read, Hiller school days, of the wall of the ancient re-
publics of Carthage and Rome, which rival those that the
most despotic monarchies have carried on. (Hear, hear.)
And if we come to modern times, we find the principle of lio-
nization is one not entirely strange to popular governments.
(Hear, hear.) I recollect the annexation of Teen ,• I knew
the causes of the war between the United States and Mexico;
and I must say these °rents are not such as to inapire me
with any very implicit faith in the morality or increas-
ing moderation of the purest democracies. Man is
man, let him live under what constitution he may
please, and. the only security for a great and wealthy
community like this is, to rely on its own resources and its
own means of defence, to abstain frem aggression, to set a
good example to the world, but not to trust in any vain
utopian theories. (Cheers.) The question of our national
independence inseparably connected with that of our na-
tional defence. (Hear.) That is the principle upon which
the parliament of this country, since 1815, has uniformly
acted ; and I say it is a good, wholesome, practical English
maxim ; it is worth a bushel of theories as to what may or
what may never happen in this world, and is the only prin-
ciple upon which the house can proved. (Hear.) If Ige
back to the defence committee of 1817, what do I find ?
Lord Castlereagh was examined before that committee,
and he was asked what, in his opinion, was
the best policy for this country to pursue with
regard to its naval defences. Hs said he conceived
that policy to be, to keep up a navy equal at least to those of
arty two powers that could possibly combine against us,
(Hear, hear.) And the finance committee of that day
began its report with these words :—" Esteeming the naval
superiority of this country as the principle on which its
external power, its internal safety, and its general pros-
perity depend, your committee are of opinion that the
sense which they entertain of the neeereaty of economy
cannot, with a due regard to the intermits of the state, be
allowed to interfere with the support of such a maritime
force as may be deemed necessary in time of peace,"—
Mr. HUME.— Hear, hear as may be deemed

nesiderWA" RD.—But hear the rest—" an may be deemed
necessary in time of peace, with • view to preparation for
its adequate defence in time of war. (Hear,
hear.) And as the naval expenditure in time of
peace is principally connected with preparation for periods
of future emergency, there is no branch of the public
service in which an ill-judged public economy might be
attended with more lamentable effects." (Hear.) I say
that is very wholesome advice. But if my hon. friend (Mr.
Hume) should say that that refers to 18,000 men, i say it
refers also to • state of the world quite different to that
which we see now, and that, in acting upon the same prin-
ciple, we are bound to look at the relative state of the seraa
powers twenty years later. (Hear.) The next great and
marked epoch in the history of our naval expenditure was
that 'riven commenced when the right hon. baronet the
member for Tamworth was in power, in 1844. He had the
good fortune to inspire the hon. member for Montrose, and
all the world beside', with the fullest confidence in his pacific
intentions, his mode ration, and his love of economy. (Ileac.)
I believe there never were two men more earnestly de irous of
preserving peace than the right bon. baronet and Lord Aber-
deen. Their measures wi-re crowned with the most com-
plete success ; but what did they make the basis of that pee
citic policy? A very large increase in our awn means of self-
defence. (Hear, hear.) And the right bon. baronet the
member for Ripon Graham), the great naval econo-
mist of 1834, was a member of that administration; he con- ,
curred in all the great measures of policy which they pro-
posed ; and he concurred, consequently, in the policy of
fixing, in a time of profound peace, the establiehment of 1
40,000 men as the proper peace ektabllehment of 1844. He
concurred, however large the estimate. of that year were in
comparison with his own, in the supplementary e etimate of
885,0001. sanctioned by the Treaaury as an addition to
the estimates of that year, for the purpose of hurry-
ing on the preparation of our steam navy, and
the works connected with it. But it is from this very
period, when we had three men of great sagacity and tried
experience in public affair* presiding over the destinies of
the country, from this period of 1844 dates every one of those
expenses of which my hon. friend behind me (Mr. Hume)
now complains. There was then a very large increase in all
the items of naval expenditure. The vote for men, in 1834,
wan 958,7611. ; in 1845, it was 1,328,0531. The vote for
wages in 1831 was U 8,0121.; is 184.5 is was 649,1041. • fee
naval stores, in 1834,499,0001. ; in 1845. 1,273,7891., making,
with the supplementary estimate of 185,0001., nearly a mil-
lion and a half. Ann in the next year this item amounted
to 1,694,152/. Don't talk to me- then, of the expen-
diture going on now, Is if it had originated in the
last few yi are. Look back to its source, to the
men from whom it originated, and ask yourselves
whether it arose from any wanton or wicked extravagance
on their part—from any idea of increasing the war patronage
of the government; for all these motives are assigned at the
present day. Ask yourselves this, and be consistent ; at all
events, those of you who were here before, and heard these
estimates read, diecussed, and carried, without a whimper of
discontent, ought not now to turn back, and because the
tide has turned, and h cause it requires &little moral courage
to tell theme truths to your constituents—say to those in
power : " This is a policy for which you are responsible. and
which we require to be accounted for at your hands." Such
a course, sir, I say is unjust. (Hear, hear.) Then all the
other items had been increased in the game way. I see, in
1834, we had in the yards 11,000 loads of timber, and
27,000 in 1845. In 1834, we hsd 600 tons of copper; in 1845,
1,158. All thee thine' hang together. It is impossible to
increase one without the other. If you make up your minds
to a certain estimate, you must deal with it as a system, and
work upon that system. Was it, then, a wanton extrava-
gance on the part of the late government, which induced
them to embark in this career; or did an overwhelming ne-
cessity compel them to take the course they did? The hon.
member for Southwark (Sir W. Moleewortb) has congratu-
lated the right hon. baronet the member fur Ripon (Sir J.
Graham) on his modest estimates for 1831, of four or four
and a-half millioaa ; but the last estimates of the late go.
vernment were the largest of any year. And I confess
honour the right hon. baronet's sagacity for this. I conceive
him to have acted on the best and most unassailable grounds.
He saw steam navies growing up all around him ; he looked
at the steam naves of France, of Russia, of the United
States; he saw a formidable power coming into existence, with
which the old sailing vessels were wholly unable to compete
and he concurred in these changes which time had made in-
dispensable, and which other countries had carried out. This
is, in fact, the only measure of power that can be takes.
What others do we must do also; we must keep our
or lose our superiority ; and if we make up our minds to keep
our pace, we must take the means by which to accomp ish
the object. (Hear, hear.) But the hon. member for South.
work has said that the United States, with a trade as exten-
sive as ours, visiting the very ports which we visit, meeting
vs in Chins, and competing with us everywhere, has but a
very small navy to protect that trade. 13ut he eget,' that
England is a great colonial as well as a great commercial
power ; he forgets what the noble lord at the heed of the
government said the other night: that hitherto, at all events,
the colonies of England have been esteemed by all parties one
great element of its prosperity. The consequence is, that
we need everywhere naval stations, and the force employed
upon them must assume a very different character from that
of the United States, which have not an acre of land in their
ion beyond their own well-concert rated territory.
hat is the reason of the multiplicity of our stations, and of
our forces, scattered over the whole habitable globe.
That is the reason why, in each of those stations, we are
forced to keep up something like a parity of power with the
nations with whom we may come in contact. The house
will probably recollect all the circumstances under which the
increase in the navy estimates of 1844 took plane. There
was a boundary dispute with the United States, which was
settled in 1840, but until it was seta, d, it was quite indis-
pensable that we should maintain a force in the Pacific
at least equal to Vein. Another great power was threatening
to attack our commerce in every quart, r of the globe, the
moment hostilities broke out; of this there was no actual
probability ; but it was an emergency for which provision
must necessarily be made. Another reason for the change
at that time was the false economy which had prevailed for
a series of years, in not maintaining a sufficient establish-
ment in the dock-s arde—of living upon yeast capital, as I
may say—of draii.ing the yards of timber, canvas hemp, and
all the essential uncles of naval stores ; so that, had any
sudden aggression occurred, England actually at one time
had not the mesas of equipping a fleet. (Hear.) I have
been curious to see what was the reduction of articles during
*me yeari of economy. In 1832, before the reign of teen- ,
away began, we had in the yards 64,000 loads of shipbuilding
timber ; that WU reduced to 46,000 loads on the 31st Dec., ,
1839 ; 7,800 tons of hemp_ were reduced, by nearly one I
half, to 4,600 tons; 36,000 bolts of canvas, to 17,000 ;
18 setsof rigging for first and second-rates to 1; 40 seta
for third and fourth rates to 5 and 2 respectively ; altogether
101 sets of rigging were reduced to 36. There was a simi-
lar reduction in sail yards, cables, and other articles; in
fact, the stores had been allowed to dwindle away, by eel
making
.purchases each year equal to the quantity con-
sumed ; in short, you had been living on your capital, es
that before the commencement of the Syrian war, I
believe, if any great emergency had occurred, you wotsli
have found it difficult to fittout an ordinary set. Sota
SW the effect of what the right hon. baronet well dolomite&
in 1843 a spurious and bastard economy. Such ea eft-
nomy would not do for any nation permanently to
it might do to hawk about, but not for a system of
(Hear, hear.) Very different was the principle whisi
the government acted en in 1844, and which we
found adopted and established with the concurrence of
the late government and the country in 1846. Was that a
system lightly to be altered ? It was, no doubt, in oar
power to have disclaimed all connexion ; to bays claimed
creditwith the country for economy, while pursuing a sys-
tem worse than extravagance—to have repudiated the
works undertaken by the Late government, or have left
them unfinished. We might, had we been so disposed, have
taken credit with the constituencies of large towns for stop-
ping a ruinous expenditure. (Hear.) But that would have
been a most unwise and unworthy course foe any govern-
ment ; it wonld ban been attended with minas cones

titaness to the country, and would have robbed it of the
benefit of all the outlay that had been already made, which
was very considerable. In 1846, in the first estimates 1
brought forward.
I declared that that was not the course
that government meant to adopt, and that no reduction
lomat be looked for until the works which we found com-
menced bad been completed. The reasons were these. A
very large expenditure had been carried on in all our prin-
cipal yardii great works Tore progress et Wodwich,
Chathani, Portsmouth :tan Sheerness.
lir* 7711.4- tare am ered them u-elea, and the expense
To have stopped
could not have been replaced ; they would have been left to
the country a monument of party trickery and national dis-
grace. (Hear.) We took the right course in resolving to
complete what we found they had begun; we have carried
on these works systematically and vigorously up to the pre-
sent time; we ask the house to carry them on another year ;
and then we may legitimately expect to pause. My hon.
friend will ask what benefit has the country derived from
this expenditure. I believe we are now on the very
point of reaping those benefits ; I believe there will
be a very large reduction in the estimates of 1849-
60, not by abndoning, but by completing, this great
undertaking—by persevering in the system which we found
begun. This v 6
we take the larneat vote evet taken for
new works, 683,6011. Part of that increase is apparent, and
not real, a corresponding reduction having been made upon
other works ; but I admit it is a large item. The conse-
quence is, that in 1849-50 we can nadertake to ask for • vote
of only 473,0001., making a saving on this head alone of
213,6431. In coming, to this conclusion we give a due regard
to the recent determination of the house on the proposal for
increasing the income tax. When that proposal war made
it was intended to have pushed on some of those works,
which must now be spread over a larger number of years,
with greater rapidity. The house has deemed it inexpedient
to give the means by which alone that can be accomplished ;
to its decision we must bow, though it will prolong
the expenditure. I should have thought it greater
econom to have finished what we ba begun, and
have had the benefit of it at one; but it is perfectly
legitimate for the house to force its own conclusions on the
government, and by those conclusions we must abide. The
main reason why we shall be able to make a reduction of
213,0001. next year ill this: our great object has been to give
the country, as soon as possible, some tangible, positive re-
sult of the expenditure already incurred; consequently, we
have devoted ourselves during the put two years to finish-
ing portions of the works commenced. This year we have
finisned Woolwich and Chatham; next year we shall ambit
Portsmouth, for which we take a very large vote. In Malts
we must spread the proposed expenditure over a period of
two years. Looking at the outlay yet to be Incurred, not
only shall we be able to make a reduction of 214,0001. in
1849-50, but the reduction will go on afterwards
at the rate of 60,0001. or 70,0001. a year, till
1851, when the whole of the works originally
projected by our predecessors will be completed, and
when the expenditure under No. 11 will be reduced to
somewhere about 120,0001. or 150,0001., being the simple cost
of superintendence mid repairs. The details have been most
carefully gone through, and warrant the result I have stalest.
Another item oa which there has been a vast outlay in the
last ten years is steam machinery. The vote for it in the
' present estimates is 280,0001. ; that which we shall be en.
abled to propose in 1849-50 will be 100,0001. Not that the
present vote is too high ; but there arc contracts still to be
fulfilled, machinery in progress to be taken and paid for.
On the Ist of April, 1849, this country will have a steam
navy of 45,000 horse power ; and we think it may then fairly
pause in the career of expenditure which has been incurred
for the purpose of creating this navy during the last six years.
Englend will have altogether, at the beginning of 1849, an
effective force of 460 ships of different rates ane classes, in-
cluding 121 steamers. And, without pretending to fix the
proportion which sailing and steam vessels ought to bear to
e..ch other, without saying whether this is a proper and
, sufficient force for England permanently to maintain, ter
that must depend on occurrences which no man can foresee,
, I think the Board of Admiralty is perfectly warranted in
stating that it sees its way to a considerable reduction in the
! building establishmente, and soiree, after the programme of
the ensuing year shall have been completed. Upon the
item of machinery, saw-snills, and things of that kind, there
will he a reduction ; and the public has a right to expect a
corresponding reduction in men's labour. We are very
anxious not te make this reduction fall too heavy n the poor
men employed in the yards; we don't want to swello he amount
. el/unemployed labour at the present time. I would rather re-
. duce by not bluing up vacancies,by foregoing all the little patro-
-1 asp o t that kind, by not taking so many apprentices, than by
r having recourse to dismissal, which must tell very heavy on the
men who thus earn their bread. I submit this statement
, with the approbation of Lord Auckland and the other mew
hers of the Board of Admiralty ; and I think we may safely
, promise to carry them cut. There wi I be a reduction
. under No.ll, the new works, of 214,6431. ; under No. 10,
L steam machinery, of 180,0001 ; on iron steamers (the last
one contracted for will be completed in the ensuing year), of
25,0001. ; on the ships building at Bombay (it not being the
intention of the board to continue the establiahment there),
, 25,000!.; on steam guard-ships (the :eat contract is nearly
completed), 8,5001.: schooner now building, contracted for
1, at Bermuda, 3,7001.: making a total reduction of 4:36.8531.
, Adding to that the reduction under Noe. 8 and 10,
in labour and stoma to be carried out carefully
and !yeti matically' of 150,0001., which. f think,
, we can safely undertake to effect, you have a total saving on
the (redraws of 1849.50 of 606,8.531. There will still be lett
an ample margin for a:1 important additions-100,0001. for
steam machinery, 135,000/. for isetory wages, repairs of
steam ships ; 473,0001. for new works, which is all that the
director himself required; 1.747,0001. for dockyard wages
and stores—making no reduction which we do not think it
peesibie to combine with the possession of a navy in the most
thoroughly efficient state. Provided this he secured, I think
the country has a right to reap, us soon as it can be safely
effected, the fruit of the enormous expenditure it has been
I making for the last six yearn. The outlay on steam sta-
r chinery alone duce 1835 his Seen 2,689,0001.; upon iron
, steam vessels, 503,001. ; upon stores voted since 1844,
, 4,444,0001. ; upon works, 2,794,0001. ; nicking a total of
10,432,4781. laid ont upon these four items up to the close of the
, ensuing financial year. Surely it is high time we should
, begin to obtain some interest for this ; and I say we have
, obtained it. By pursuing this course, we have placed all the
great establishments, on which the security of the country
depends, in the most efficient and available state. You will
have at the beginning of the year a steam navy of nearly
60,000 horses' power •in 1835, you had a steam navy of
4,153 horses' power. 'You will have your two great factories
at Portsmouth and Woolwich in a perfectly efficient state
for undertaking all steam repairs. At Portsmouth, it is not
the intention of the present hoard to go on with those larger
plans proposed by our predecessors ; yet the whole piece of
ground ceded by the orduance hi the admiralty has been sur-
rounded with a meat and a sea-wall, and may be available
at any future time when further extension is required.
The great basin of Portsmouth, which is one of the
most magnificent works of the kind, will be
opened for us in the course of the ensuing month; the
beans at Hasler are proceeding rapidly. Malta has now a
dock capable of receiving the largest ships, and will be per-
fectly tit, in the course of next year, for undertaking all the
Mediterranean steam repairs. Bermuda, after 20 years of
absolute neglect, is likely now to become a station worthy of
a great naval power. Looking at all these things, we may safely
say the establishments of the country never were in a more
efficient state, and that Englabd never was in a better posi-
tion to preserve the peace of Europe, for she never wee in e
position to prove herself more formidable. It now rests with
the house to decide whether, by supporting the proposition
of my hon. friend behind me (whatever it be), it will cripple
the resources of the country, and undo all that
has been done for the last ten yeses, by with-
holding men, who sloe can give vitality, strength,
and efficacy to the system we have been labouring to create ;
or whether it will sanction the vote lain about to propose,
and maintain the navy establishments in a state worthy of
those other es' ablishmeats which have been acquired and
kept up at so great an expense ? I know that some singular
ideas have been broached lately as to the services required
from our beet. My hoe. friend behind me (Mr. Couden)
has had visions of orange groves and shady retreats, ander
which he supposes our officers continually repose ; and he
seems to think that the life of an officer of an English man-
of-war on foreign service is a constant tissue of pleasure,
without any serious duties to perform. (Hear, hem.) Let
him look at the annals of the service, rather then at those
visions his poetical imagination has kindled up, and I think
he will find that the servants of a great maritime
power have something to look to and protect more than
he 'apposes. Let the hon. member seek the inha aunts of
Sicily, Palermo, Messina, or any other part where British
efficen have been acting as leaders and protectors of their
countrymen in the convulsions that have recently occurred
—whether they think that a fleet in the Mediterranean is
useless,—whetner the power of England to aid and protect
has ever been more firmly and sagacious y displayed than by
Sir W. Parker ? (Hear, hear.) Let him look to the Pacific;
th coace from Behriag's Straits to the Cape of Good Hope
is vered by a squadron of 12 ships and 3,000 men, which,
in the midst of the disturbances in South America, have
given protection to English merchants 1 stablishi d at various
place. along the coast. Let him look at the East Indies and
the five tree ports of China where oue ship is stationed,
under the treaty for the protection of our commerce. In the
Indian Archipelago, you have seen the British fleet instru-
mental in the diffusion of civilisation and of peace.
You have seen a portion of that Beet concurring in the pro-
tection of our colonists in New Zealand, where they vied
with the army in daring and gallantry. Upon the coast of
Africa most arduous duties are achieved by that squadron.
Thin may be doubts as to its necessity, or policy, or advan.
We, but none as to the manner in which its duties have
ban discharged. (Hear, hear.) And I venture to say that
the squadron in the Tagus, under Sr Charles Napier, has
been the very best naval school that England ever possessed.
(Hear, hear.) I believe there n was a commander-in
chief who has shown a more indefatigable spirit, or done
more to train the men under him, to make them efficient in
every branch of their calling, and to enable them to face any
enemy that may present himself. (Hear, hear.) I have
a. stated ail the facts; and the house must judge for
themselves. If they give way to the cry for economy, look-
Mg solely to the present, without any regard either
to the past or the future, their constituents will be the lint
to blame them for that vacillation which no Englishmen,
ought to show, by abandoning a system before he las
brought it to perfection. (Hear, hear.) I know what cam.
Mita/aides are • I do not represent 120,000 people withoat
having applications forced upon me every day and every
hour, the same as my hon. friends. But I have met them all
by stating that this system is the completion of a great object
which has been pursued for matey years, and that I would
sooner sacrifice my chance of representing them again than
consent to abandon its perfection. (Hear, hear.) I think,
after the sacrifices we have made, it would be an act of
fatuity to fen the results of those establishments which
we have been for ten years te Product. I say Eng-
land has a navy of which she may be proud, and that is the
beet security for the peace of the world ; for the only
practical security for peace is the power to repel aggro

aion, come from whence it may. Ido intrest hon. members
knowing how mistaken their economy may be, to pause be-
fore they concur in the vote the hon. member is about to
propose, before they cripple the resources we have been
endeavouring to create. I have such.perfeet confidence that
the house will support the vote I now ask, that I shall im-
plicitly abide by the result. (Rear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN. —" IChat a sum not exceeding
693.6061"
kr. • ilinsit-143, no. It se understood that no more
money was to be voted till the committee on the expenditure
had reported. I have no objection to the vote being taken
on the number of men, bat it will be a breach of faith if you
take a vote for any more mon, y.
Mr. WARD thought the hon. member was mistaken.
The question as to the number of men wu settled by the
prerogative of the crown, and this was the only way in
which the question he sought to raise could come before the

house.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the He-
el:tete ER,
Mr. GLADSTONE referred to the resolutions of last
year, and showed that a distinct vote had been taken on the
number of men, in which he was supported by Sir JAMES
GRAHAM and Mr. CORBY.
Mr. WARD said that he was in error. He had been sent
the wrong resolutions. (Laughter.)
The Earl of LINCOLN—Then you were wrong with re-
gard to the prerogative. (Laughter.)
Mr. DISRAELI—And what becomes of the ingenious ar-
gument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which carried
conviction to the house? (Increased laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said there was a declaration of her
Majesty every year to the Privy Council, which set forth the
number of men required fur the navy ; but that was not the
custom with regard to the army.
Sir J. GRAIIAII—But previously to that declaration to
the Privy Council the First Lord of the Admiralty and the
Board of Admiralty stated the precise number of men that
would be required, and it was open to any member of the
house to propose a reduction. (Hear.)
Sir C. WOOD said that there never bad been a vote of the
number of men stated in the estimates separate from the ex-
pense.
Sir J. GRAHAM asked what the vote now was.
The CHAIRMAN—The vote now put into my hand is
for 43,000 men for the naval service.
Mr. HUhIE said he felt at alms how to deal with his bon.
friend (Mr. Ward), because he gloried in extravagance, and
said that he approved of the policy which had led to the in-
crease of their naval establishment. lie (Mr. Hume) and
his hon. friend were as wide as the poles sounder on that
point. He acknowledged that there were cases in which
power was relative. But he saw nothing in the aspect of
affairs in other countries which should induce them to in-
crease their expenditure. The powers of Germany seemed
to have enough to do at home. The Unit. d States were not
likely very soon to engage in a war again; and several
members of the government of France declared that they
were desirous of maintaining peace. His hon. friend was
naturally desirous of having his department as effective
as posaible but that was no reason why the
House of Commons should agree to his proposition.
His hon. friend spoke in exulting term' of the naval stores
being well supplied. He (Mr. Hume) doubted whether
that was ecouomical. Those stores consisted of several
articles which would be unfit for use wlen they were
wanted. Was canvass, for instance, an article that would
improve by being kept? (Hear, hear.) In his opinion
there was a needless accumulation and waste of naval stores.
They had a fleet in Sicily—they had a fleet in the Tagus—
and they had a fleet and troops in Buenos Ayres. What
punnets had they in any of those places except to protect
their trade? They had also 27 vessels on the mast of Africa
wnich were worse than useless. It was a pars wane of the
resource' of the country ; and this in the face of a deficiency
—taking that of last year and the present estimate together
—of 4,600,000/. In 183.5 the number of vessels afloat was
lei, and the number of seamen amounted to 26,5001.; in
1845 there were 265 vowels of war and 40,000
seamen and in the present year there were 2.56
hips at at, and 43,000 men were demanded. In 1845 they
had 75 warners • in the present year they had 96, and not
content with this increase in their steam navy the govern-
, ment went on still adding to their sailing vessels. In 1835,
the deckyardj. rite:amounted to 7,884 ; in 1845, to 12,194, it
was now proposed to make it 13,219. In 1835, the appoint-
ments of officers amounted to 1,736 ; in 1845: to 2,301 ; in
the present year, to 3,479. What was there in the situation
of the country to justify this progressive Mere se, and were
they to vote this large amount at men without having the
means to meet the expenditure? The country had storm
that it would not submit to on increase of the income tax,
and an additioa to the taxation of articles of consumption
had been tried and failed. The revenue had produced leas
by 1,133,0001. than the noble lord had estimated, and in the
face of that decrease could any man in his senses suppose that
the estimates of the government for the next year would be
realised? They were, therefore, in the position of those who
increased their expenses at the time that their revenue
diminished. The y must look, then, to a reduction of their
establishmenu. lie tho..gtit that a redaction of 1.5,000 men
could be made wiu.out clitticulty. But he would only pro-
pene that the number of men be diminished from 43,000 to
36,000. He thought that the flets which they kept unne-
cessarily in the Tagus, in Africa, and South America could
afford the reduction. The total estimates f.r their establish-
ments in 1835 was 4,431,000/. ; the estimates fur 1849 were
7,951,8421. The effective service, which in 1835 cost
2,690,0001., was estimated fur 1849 at 5,673,0001. The num-
ber of men for the army and navy had increased from 121,840
in 1835, to 171,000 in the present year, besides 10,000 in-
valids. dock-yard battalions, coast guards, and police. It
they had kept their establishments at the point they
were at in 1833, the country would be saved
the whole amount cat the income and property tax. But if
they went on increasing their expenditure teem year to year
he predicted that an income tax of 6 ore per cent. would be
necessary. On an average the revenue of the country at
present was not below the average amount of the last fifteen
years. That was a consolatory fact, and afforded grounds of
congratulation, if only the Chancellor of the Exchequer
dealt fairly by the revenue. He did not mean to say that
some of the money had not been usefully expended. The
improvement of the decks would prove a saving of money in
tke end, but the conclusion which be wished the house to
come to was, that the ez,enditure on the whole was unneces-
sary, and ought to be cut down. He would therefore move
that 36,000 be substituted for 43,000. (Hear.)
The question having been put,
Mr. CORRY argued that the increase which had occurred
in the navy estimates had been consequent on the transition
of our marine from sailing to steam vessels, and that it was
absolutely necessary to increase the number of the latter.
' Mr. A. B. COCHRANE said the very moderate increase
which was now proposed had for its ob ect to avoid the ne-
amity of calling fora great increase in the event of war.
Mr. AOLIONBY and Mr. C. BRUCE having male a few ob-
servatious,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that this discussion was one of pri-
mary importance in the :present critical state of European
*Leslie, and he regarded the decision of the house on the
question as fraught with the gravest consequence.. When
he came down to the house he certainly had not expected to
be put on his defence by his hon. friend the Secretary for
' the Admiralty, or to hear any repetition of the charge that,
when he quitted, office, he had left the naval arsenals
unprovided fur. Similar accusations to this had been
ou inure than one occasion formerly advanced against him,but
he thought lie had diepieed of them in a manner satisfactory
to the house and satisfactory even to the parties whe had
been most earnest in making the charge. (Hear, hear.) He
murdered that he had clearly shown himself to have left
behind him in the various dockjards an ample provision of
all articles of permanent service, the economy he had prac-
tised basing been exercised upon articles of • perishable
nature, upon perishable stores, the ,übjeet, of ordinary con-
trae, wh.oh, its rise of need, could be supplied at short no-
tice, and the provisiou of which, unless in case of need, was
mere waste of the public money. (Hear, hear.) And this
was precisely his distinction between prudent parsimony and
profligate profusion ; that it was prudent parsimony to avoid
unnecessary outlay upon perishable stores, and upon stores
that could immediately be supplied, and profligate prolusion
to make that unnecessary outlay. (Hear, bear.) He begged
distinctly te assert that the charge advanced against him of
having in 1834 left the dockyards unprovided with necessa-
ries, was totally unfounded. (Hear.) As to his hon. friend's es-
timates, tney were as pugnacious in their motives as in
their mutter. His hon. friend was not satisfied with assail-
ing befor.hand those gentlemen near him, from whom he
anticipates 01 position, but he must needs tall foul also of
him (Sr G. Graham), who had given him no cause for ap.
prehension. Mare then this, his hon. friend was rot sates.
fled wan moving the estimates of the present year, but he
had considered it proper to go the length of stating also the
estimates for the ensuing year—(hear, hear)—a course of
proceeding which would really seem to relieve the Naval
Es,,enditure Committee from the necessity of any further
inquiry into that part of the subject. (Hear, hear.)
His hon. friend had distinctly propounded his conviction
that, while nothing could Le saved this year, the whole
amoeut of saving that could be effected in his department in
the year 1819 50 was limited to 600,0001. Now, it was to
be °Nerved that these smatters of ...tie:lees practically re-
sowed themselves into matters of confidence in • govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) The house might, indeed,
point out, in outline, savings that might be effected ; but the
details of savings must be left to the particular department.
(Hear, hear.) When, therefore, he heard the Secretary to
the Admiralty distinctly intimate that no saving could be
made in his department this year, and only • certain
amount next year, it made him really despond of
any goad flowing from the further inquiry on the part
of the committee. (Hear, bear.) The hon. secretary had
placed the increase of the naval estimates on a footing
which, under ordinary circumstances, was well calculated
to excite alarm. He argued that, because Sir R. Peel's
government in 1842. 44, and 46, with reference to the cir-
cumstances of those particular periods, proposed to parlia-
ment considerable increase of expenditure, that therefore it
was smential that the present government with reference to
(Liam& circumstances, should also progress in expenditure.
Lit recall it to the attention of his hon. friend, and of
the knee, that when Sr Robert Peel's government came
leis Am, they found the China war commenced, and
its Glow length along without any prospect of •
urination. They immediately took active mei-
es;;;L;Tringing the contest to a close—a triumphant c'ose,
bat this course of necessity involved the country in a large
lacrosse of naval expenditure. So much for the estimates
el 1842. In 1844, very serious misunderstandings look
ghee with France, in reference to Tahiti, and another ta-
int.. °flour naval estimates was accordingly deemed eseen-
lia. Again, in 1846, the year when the naval estimates
11 meg their highest &must, circumstance' rendered that
angseintation politic, if not absolutely indiapensable. He
used not remind the house, that the very last act of his right
bon. Weed in quitting office, was to pee to parliament the
satisfactory announcement of his having that very
day received from the United States the intimation
of the amicable adjustment of the long pending dispute re-
lative to Oregon. (Hear, hear.) With reference to all

estimates, it was clear that the circumstances of tee tha •
for which they were framed constituted their justifiancae,
otherwise her Majesty's present government, hvieg In
time of great difficulty, surrounded with most grave -reseisk-
ail.ility, had been, in stating this matter to the house'
cues.
palled to observe a cautious reserve. Even on ordinary we.
cuisine, it was not the essential duty of a government
•
having due regard to the safety and honour Qf this
entry
and tEli peace of; the world, fully and unreservedly to state
all the reasons which from time to time induced it to pro.
pose • given amount of military or naval force; a vote
which, as be had just observed, practically resolved itself
into a vote of confidence in the government. (Hear, hew)
The noble lord, however, who first stated these esti-
' mates, bad in • plain, intelligible, and manly wee
,laid open to the house and to the country the
peculiar circumstances which, at that period, led him to the
L conviction that the increase he proposed was not nen than
the safety and honour of the country, for the administration
of whose affair be waste sponsible, absolutely required. eie
an individual member of the house, he ;Sir .1. Graham))
would now briefly exercise the privilege of that position, Lea
state his opinion with reference to circumstances as they
then stood. He would express his conviction that to the
continental powers, to France, for instance, with an ex-
tended and open position, large standing armies were n
nary for maintaining their safety and independence as state,,
and that their haring such large armies was, consequently,
no just ground for jealousy on our part. (Hear' - Mail
On the other hand, ho felt bound to as, teat
great naval preparations on the part of Preece,
she not having many colonies or an extended
commercial marine scattered throughout the world,
whether these preparations were limited to an increase
of her shipping or comprehended further the exten-
sion of her forts and defences on the Channel coast. appeared
to him • policy, not defensive, but distinctly offensive, sad,
as such, requiring the close and zealous attention, not merely
of our executive government, but of our parliament. (Hear,
hear.) It could not be denied that from the period tithe
first interruption of a good understanding between this
country and France—a matter to which it would be urge.
nerous and painful fur them to advert under present circuas.
stances—(hem ) —this misunderstanding had gradually bees
acquiring the character of eomethiug very like hostility. The
immense increase in the number of French war-manners sad
other Timelier war,and the energetic extension and strengthen.
leg of the various forts and defences along the Preach eon*
were matters not merely of publicity but almost of ardente
tious display on the part of toe government of that country
—(heme hear) ; and he must say, therefore, that under twit
circumstances the British government would have neglected
their duty, would have been guilty of the grossest maces.
duct, if, after emphatically protesting against this cohdat
on the part of France, they had not, on finding their pey
test futile, taken measures for placing England in a state of
preparation. (Hear, hear.) Since our last struggle with
France a new and most important element of "name had.
been introduced in the vast steam-vessels which in suck
large numbers France had added to her naval force,
and by means of which, and of the railways, brought
within the same period to the French ports, a *hole
army might in a very brief space be transferred to our
shores. (Hear, hear.) It should be always borne in mind,
ton, with reference to this matter, that assailants have the
advantage of a cone, nti ation of forces, while the defenders,
uncertain as to the puiut of attack, are diaper ed (lieu.)
Unless, therefore, wider the circumstances which seemed
threatening, Great Britain were placed in • state of prepare.
lion, there was the possibility that her intact shores, on
which, for centuries, at least, a toreign foe had not trod,
would be exposed ro that disgraceful and horrible outrage
actual incision, so that the battle of our national soda
',cadence would have been to he fought, not on the seas, bet
on our own soil. (Hear.) Under such cameramen.*
had not hesitated to give his earnest support to the go-
vernment. While, however, he was the zealous supporter of
this general principle, he begged to express the optima that,
by a close attention to details, a far larger reduction of ex-
penditure might be made than was contemplated by the
hon. Secretary to the Admiralty—(hear, hear); tad
it should be his constant business in the com-
mittee to make every suggestion which his ups•
rience dictated towards this moat important object ; and be
hau no doubt that the executive government would elk-
bit an earnest and honest desire to carry out whatever retina
aura the committee 'mould recommend to them as feasible.
Same observations had been made with reference to Ike
Tagus squadron he would beg, on this subject, to state.
the house an o,:inion given to hill' by Sir Thomas Hardy, se
the result of a communication between him and Lord Melia.
It was this: "The Tagus is to he regarded by this country
as the mast important naval station in Europe. For all
purposes of home defence, a squadron placed in the Taus
is even better placed than at Cork, or even at Plymouth. It
commands the Gulf of Gibraltar on one aide; it lies epee
to the Atlantic, affording a permanent place of departure be
America and the \Vest India'. And, as to the chops of the
Channel, it is most advantageously placed. I, for my pert,
from all my practical observation, can never consider a
squadron placed in the Tagus but as a squadron immediately
available, whether for the Channel service or for the Medi-
terranean service. There can be no doubt that the Tama
a peat naval station carefully to be retained by us, and on.
stantly guarded by a British naval form" (Meer, bear.)
As to the squadron on the African coast, this was a maw
under the censideratiou of the committee. There was or
item of naval expenditure capable of very material raise
tion : he alluded to the squadron of 26 ship, with 2,101
men, which had so long been lying in the Plate River; sal
there were other stations scarcely leas susceptible of retread-
meat in expenditure. But in no case would he meant tot
proposition which should really impair the efficacy of the
service, and therefore, as to the subject matter be.
fore the committee, he could contains. lowly vote for
the proposition, for he should never, during tie
rest of his life, be without a pang. at his heart we re he, under
the present circunistanees of affairs, to sanction the reelects
of one single man from the proposed estimate. He hear.)
Mr. WARD said he had no desire whatever to fetter the
action of the committee.
Lord SEYMOUR opposed the amendment.
Lord INGESTRE supported the geverameut estimete;
and, with reference to Capt. Warner's invention, ("presser
his conviction that the invention, if adopted, weuld be the
means of saving an enormous outlay of hood and treihure.
Mr. COBDEN entered his protest against the [Wanes
laid down by the right hen. baronet the member for Hirai;
a doctrine which had been asserted on a termer night by the
right Lon. baronet the member for Tamworth—tbat the en
ecutive government was alone responsible to the erountry fee
tha amount of the army and navy estimates. The heal kg
more than once heard taunts from the gevernmentorbee
the expenditure had been complained of, that it was by thia
votes alone that the ministry had been enabled to incur si
large an amount of expenditure ; and when the mien!,
were called to account for the extravagant demands whit&
they made upon the public purse, they threw the response.-
lity of having Incurred those demands upon the house. Bit
now that the right hon. baronet the member for Rips"
desired to find an excuse for the vote he woo about to font
he transferred the responsibility from the house to the new
tive g vernment. If that uoctrine was correct, if the ministry
alone were responsible for the amount of the estimates, tau
doors of that house would at once be shut and every member
might go home tor any use he was there. lie also pnaested
against another of the right hon. baronet's dogmas, that the
parliament ha I no right to know the reasons which the se
vernment nad for concealing the real state of affairs. (Oh!)
If were were secrets, let the house know whet they were.
(Laughter, and bear, hear.) He whale. to be informed of
the reasons why the house was called upon to vote large sue
of money ; and so far from thinking secrecy any advantage,
or that any good resulted from leaving so much power is the
hands of the foreien secretary, he was of opinion that a
would be the wisest plan to let all the world know what list
land was doing in this respect. The daily press prevented them
being any very great amount of secrecy in forci,n again:, sada
4
was in vain to attempt to involve them in mystery. (H
But there were always plenty of reasons to be had when
U
increase of exp..nse was to be justified. In the year 1831
the right hon. baronet the member for Halifax told the
house that Russia was about to invade England, and that in
increase in the navy estimates was necessary. The increase
wan voted, and then no more was heard of Russian invoke.
In 1840, the miserable affair of Syria was urged to the pas
for increased naval expenditure. In 1842, China formed a
pretexta forad
firesh
hl
8 46,
the plea that America waste be apprehended. He pasUl
dthitieonealitravvoaguareas
in which Mr. Pritchard was lambed. But whatever CU
ofutkhede aufvoerrnthrueennti;ryllawd,
the amount of increase in the expenditure there were always
over the miserable pretext afforded ny time affair at 'thin.
plenty et reasons to justify it. What he wished to draw
attention to was, that let the house once give its assent to an
duce that excess to the former state of affairs. Then wee now no
danger to be apprehended anywhere. (" Oh, oh.")
The
house cught to bear in mind that at the time the estimates
increue 01 expenditure, there was never any effort made to re-
, now before them were framed there had been not the
smallest reason for apprehending that a revolution would
break out in France, or that Louis Philippe. would not bs
on the French throne. On a former °maroon the Mont-
i of-nsier marringe and a pamphlet issued by ore of the eove
the French king had Men urged as reimens tor appre
heading danger; but now there existed no such reasons,
nor could any fear be entertained of an invasion on the
part of the Prince de Joinville. And yet, notwithstanding
the groundleramess of the former excesses it was now urged—
as if merely to show that an excuse could never be waxiest
—that France might invade England,and therefore pre
partitions for defence must be made. France had a great
deal too much to do at home to be able to entertain any
such designs as were a•tributed to her. But another res.
son for maintaining the present rate of naval expenditure
was that the British ships of war were land
for the protection of the commerce of England in foreign
countries. In what manner did the British navy protect the
commerce of England ? The ships of war never carried on
carried on by English merchants. The chief merchants any commer was the commerce of the Mediterranean
en-
gaged in the commerce of Europe were Greeks, Germanm.s.
and Italians. He would prove this fact by moving fear
turns from the British consuls in the Mediterranean Se and
on on the coast of Portugal, showing the number of En
bleb
merchants engaged in commerce in those parts. Ter If
turns would incontestably prove that the English
mole
were few in number, and that they were daily dirniflisirl w 'mo
and giving place to others. But that would not s ,t
the amount of exports fiom England diminished alongho what
e to
the number of English merchants. The goods
foreign
the Mediterranean and Portugal were conailfhed
merchants, to Greeks, Germans, and Swiss—all o _
carried on their transactions without the preteetss.
tot..
naval force. (Hear, hear.) Could it be pretended
4.stn,
British navy was required in order to protect
rtl: tnaMs__o!
commerce ; or, on the other hand, wee it p to_Os.
British ships of war were necessary to Pu.,:ich thown e
Why, steam had done that for p
o
(" Oh," and " No.") Be maintained that th
h") here were still
pirates in the Mediterranean. (" tel • tea were
to be found praline in the Eastern seas, but no pus
coaches formerly effected in the cases- pirates
:high:mays:La.:7