The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-10 00:00:00

because from the latter port corn could be aseiSestli Ter- the British sailor and to the efficient maritime defence of
pool at 24. Id, the barrel, while from the the patios..
4s
freight was 9d. Such had bent, , were Mr. HUTT said it was sever the practice of the house to
still, the 'Wean of our restrictive wain. (Hear.) , confine inquiries of thin kind to the government of the day,
If the moult of the inquiry should not be to peeve that the for on am occasion he obtained an inquiry into the operas
removal of these rest.r:ctioas would tend to the inipsoveinent tion of the set of settlement itself.
of the commerce, the trade, and the diseases tithe country, Mr. DISRAELI said he rose for the purpose of prevent-
he would be the first to admit his error; a' all event', it win ing any misconception ss to the grounds on which he and
most desirable for all parties that the question should be set tease with whom he acted were going to • division. lie
at rest. begged of the house tin observe, that in the vote they were
Sir W. JAMES had heard no grounds which, in his about to give they were not going to vote for or agaiust the
opinion, ought to be considered as sufficient for resisting the navitratioa laws. That cmcition they did not consider before
proposed inquiry. The motion of the hon. member (Mr. the house. They were going merely to vote against inquiry.
Ricardo) bore • striking re emblance to that made by Mr. (Laughter.) Some hon. gentlemen seemed to think there
Cobden three or four years ago as to the effect of the corn- was no difference in the distinction, but he would show
laws on labour, and on agricultural labour in particular, and that in that clutinction the whole question before the house
he would my to his emottuents, and the shipping interest rested. Therighthon.gentlemanlaiddownthe broad priticiple
generally, as was then said to the agricultural interest, "If that they should never refuse investigation into any subject
you are wise and know your own interest you will not oppose which might be brought before the House of Commons.
the inquiry." That appeared to him to be a novel and dangerous propo-
Mr. Ald. THOMPSON took it for granted that the people sition—(hear, bear),—for he did not think the desire of in-
of Hull were desirous of seeing their harbour and docks vestigation ought to be morbidly encouraged. With respect
filled with ships from Sweden and Prussia, but his bon. to the distinction which he drew between not voting on the
friend must have perceived that those who were so eager for question of the navigation laws, and voting against inquiry,
the committee had already made up their minds in favour of he did not pretend to say that gradual alterations
• qualification, if not of the total repeal, of the navigation might not be allowed, but that the question was one
laws. The hon. member (Mr. Ricardo) said that his motion respecting which they had such ample information,
was founded upon the fact that the question had been gone that it was one, the principle of which had been
into in the committee of 1844 and 1845 ; but the object of so thoroughly investigated and illustrated by statesmen
I that inquiry was not the navigation laws, bet into the cause and public writers, and the details of which were so familiar
lof the dreadful depression in the commercial marine of the to every member of that house, that it did not require
country. In his evidence before that committee, the late further illustration. (Hear, hear.) He could not conceive
Mr. Soames, after stating that British shipping had been in how the government which ma le those great alterations in
a deplorable state for the last three or four years, the commercial policy of the country, which had been mode
i produced • calculation, showing that while during in the few lest years, or the government now in office, which
a period of twenty year., British tonnage had increased supported those changes, and were prepare dto carry them
42) per cent., the foreign shipping of the north of out, could have acted as they have done without having the
Europe had increased 172 per cent. But if it were not ne- question of the navigation laws under consideration. (near,
ceseary to continue the navigation laws fur the protection of hear.) Therefore he thought the government should have
the British shipowner, he held that it was essential to do so come forward with • decided opinion ; and if they saw that
for the security, the power, and the independence of the it was necessary to make alterations in the navigation laws, ,
country. (Cheer..) Free the British shipowner from the which was strictly a fundamental law of the country, they
numerous regulations which compelled him to maintain a should have embodied their convictions in a bill, and brought
numerous body of able and intelligent seamen—remove from the subject under the consideration of parliament. (Hear,
him the oblig ition of taking apprentices, and building his hear.) When the noble lord asked parliament to suspend
ships in a manner to be approved of by a public officer— these laws t. mporarily, in order to meet a preying emergency
abolish the necessity of providing his ships with surgeons he gave no intimation of any intention on the part of the
and medicines—a regulation to which foreigners were not government to make ulterior alteration. (Hear, hear.)
subjected—and no lonoir call upon him to contribute ti the But now they were called on at the bidding of a private
maintenance of disabled seamen, and the widows and children member, who as it were pulled the government after him
of seamen, and they would place him in a better position to —(hear, hear, bear)—to say whether it was right—he need
compete with ths foreign shipowner. But he did not believe not say whether it was decorous—that they ebould
that such • change would be considered by any one consent to an investigation on the subject. No
advantageoustothegeneral interesteofthecoup. Ifgovern. man was fit to be a minister who had not made
meat considered that it would be wise and ient to alter up his mind on the subject one way or other. (Hear,
the navigation law., let them come forwar boldly and at hear, hear.) They hail at least two hundred years ear-
once with a measure fur the purpose, and the house and the rience of these laws, and there way no subject on which
country would know how to deal with it ; but to leave the there was more ample evidence. Here wail a law of a con.
natter in a state of uncertainty for twelve or eighteen stitational character, not one involving mere commercial
months, was both unwise and ungenerous to the interest principles, and surely a government ought to have some
concerned. filed opinions respecting it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT thought that good reason had been shown Lord J. RUSSELL said he agreed in the statement
for inquiring into the diversity of opinion which had of the hon, gentleman who had just sat down with
been shown to exist on this question in the course of the respect to this question. It was not a question
present debate. The 'even' changes which had already as to whether they approved or disapproved of ,
taken plum in these laws proved, too, that they were not as the navigation laws, but whether they would consent to
they originally stood conducive to the interests of the inquiry. Though he agreed with the hon. gentleman in
country, And the fact, that within the last few days the his statement, he came to an opposite coueluaion, because be
house had suspended the navigation laws to some extent ins thought it was a question quite fit for inquiry. (Hear.)
case of emergency, was a good reason for doubting their When he asked the house to consnt to a tempo-
utis ity, for it proved that under any circumstances they were rary suspension of the navigation laws, he did not do so with
only fine weather laws, and not suited for tines of difficulty any ulterior views of a permanent alteration. Whether
and danger. these laws were defensible er indefensible, he believed
Viscount SANDON agreed with the hon. member for that a temporary suspension was necessary and jus-
Westmoreland that if a question like this was brought for- tillable. (Hear, hear, hear.) He thought it was ten-'ward it should be in the hands of the government. (Hear, possible for soy man to say as the honourable gentleman
hear.) Whea they came to deal with a principle like this, seemed to sseert that these laws were of that constitutional
not merely as regraded the commerce but the defence of the character, of that permanent and fixed 'nature, that it was
country, it was the duty of the government to come for ward not possible to content to any alteration of them. He could
and intimate an opinion upon it, nor was it right to not but reflect that a great many years ago Mr. Iluskisson
leave a question like this in the hands of en individual thought it necessary to propose a modification of them, and
member. This was not an inquiry which could be entered because he bad no other course to take. With regard to
into, without disturbing. men's minds; and it was one which another part of these laws; which the hon. member for
involved a great principle, and the government, by (once- Durham defended on the authority of Mr. Iluthinon,
ding such an inquiry in the manner in which it had been done namely, that part of them which related to fisheries,
by the right honourable gentleman the Viee President of the and upon which he pronounced a strong opinion, he
Board of Trade, had virtually abandoned the law. (Hear, begged to remind the house that great alterations had been
hear.) The Navigation Laws were not based on the ordi- made by the right hon. baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel), and
nary principles of protection, but in them were involved the he did not think that these alterations were seriously opposed.
defence of the country and the efficiency of the navy. He It generally agreed that circumstances required these ahem-
' felt most reluctant to vote spinet aninquiry supported by lions; so that instead of the laws being of a permanent and
the government, still he must confess that he did not think unalterable character, they were subjest to circumstances.
the great interests at stake had been met with the consider- Mr. DISRAELI said the noble lord had mistaken his ar-
ation they deserved by being left to the house in the manner garment entirely.
in which they had bean by the government. Lord J. RUSSELL : The hon. gentleman said the law
Mr. LABOUCHERE would leave the house to judge was of a constitutional character—(hear, hear),—and being
if the government differed much from the noble lord in think- of a constitutional character, it was not a subject for inquiry.f
ing these laws a fit cue for inquiry. The noble lord But he (Lord J. Russell) concluded, from the policy o I
admitted that reference being made to the commercial former times, that circumstances might require an alteration,
change* that had taken place in this country, these laws modification, or a repeal—in part, at least—of these laws;
must be modified, although it should be done carefully ; and, upon after-inquiry, it was generally agreed that the'
but the noble lord said that the government ought not to alterations made were wise and salutary. (Hear, hear.) If
throw the subject loose upon a cemmittee; but when it was they had proposed an alteration of them laws without in-
remembered bow many important subjects had been referred quiry, uthe hon. gentleman mid they ought to do, the
to select committee.,he hoped no government would ever answer would probably be—" Will you propose an alter.
reply to any independent member who asked for inquiry on Leticia without inqutry / (Hear, bear.) Will you
a subject that they would not grant it. The greatest guess not allow the shipping interest, which is so deeply
tions had been so dealt with by governments and had been involved, to have a committee, before which they may
constantly referred to select committees on the motion of state their case and their grievances before you consent to
independent members. an alteration ofthie most important law 1" (Hear.) They
, Lord G. BENTINCE. differed entirely from the right felt it would be to take that course, and, therefore,
hon. gentleman, and he concurred with his noble friend the wheu his hon. friend proposed, in his able and very tetnpe-
member fur Liverpool in thinking that it was not becoming rate speech, an inquiry on the subject, it would have this
in the government to permit a question of this kind—a ques- advantage, that nll parties interested in the question would
lion of great national policy—to be sent for the consideration have an opportunity of stating their views before a coin-
of a select committee ; especially when the proposer and mittee, who would examine the persons best acquainted with
seconder of this motion said that the shipping and manor- the matter, and bring out the knowledge which they pea-
cell interests of this country were to be compared to pedlars sensed. With regard to any measures which might result
and packhorses, and that the trade in shipping should ben from the inquiry, ecould only may that with regard to all sub-
free as the trade in shoes. When this was the spirit ject. they had made great changes of late years,which affected
in which gentlemen opposite went into an inquiry so various interests, and very deeply the interests of the eolo-
important to the shipping interest, it was with an ales. Some of thoee colonies had said that it was not fair to
animus very different to that in which the in- make these alterations, and leave them subject to the re.
quiry was carried on in 1844. That was not an suiction of the navigation laws. (Ilene, hear.) Let them
inquiry into the policy and operation of the navigation laws, hear the statement of these reasons and grievances. (Hear,
but into the state of the commercial marine, with a view of hear.) But another part of the subject deserved inquiry,
reporting the best means, not of discouraging, but of en namely, the state of the shipping interest itself. Several
couraging the shipping interest. The hon. member for the committees had been appointed on this subject, but with a
Potteries meant to reduce freights, to purchase sailors in the view, he believed, of going back to restriction and prom-
cheapest market', and to grind the shipwrights of London don, on the ground that the expense of building ships
from 6s. • day down to 3s. 6d., and by a process like the was so great in this country, that they could not bear cam.
Irish one of spending half-a-crown out of sixpence a day, to petition. Let them hear what these restrictions were—let
diminish freights to 10s. a ton when they were now only the shipping interest state why their expenses were so great
7s. 6d. He said that England bad loet her North American —(hear, hear)--and what modifications or alterations it
colonies by the (mention of the navigation laws, but he was possible to make by which the shipping interest, to which
(Lord G. Bentinek) always thought they were lost on the country was bound to look as one main source of her
account of a tax on tea which was imposed by a parliament political greatness, might be improved, and its prosperity
in which they were not represented. He also said that promoted. (Hear, bear.) He did not agree in the ergo-
Portugal had lost the Brazils through her colonial intern, menu which would carry them back to protection, but if
but if he (Lord G. Bentinek) remembered right the elder they were to go forward in the way of freedom, it
branch of the house of Brthanza, finding the interests of was desirable that every interest which might be af-
Portugal falling, thought they had better select the Brasile fected should be beard, and that the benefits of that
as • place of retreat. Without entering into the question freedom should be extended to other portions of the commu.
he would take the same course as that taken by his noble nity. On the part, therefore, of the shipping interest, as
friend the member for Liverpool and oppose this motion. well as of those who desired an alteration of the navigation
Viscount SANDON—I only raid I was reluctant to vote law., he would support the motion for a committe and
for it. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) though he was not prepared to propose a committee, he was
Lord G. BENTINCA.—WeII, then, as he was loath to glad that an independent member of th, house, poeticised of
permit it to be carried he should oppose it altogether. ea much intelligence, information, and knowledge of the
Mr. MITCHELL supported the motion. subject, had brought the subject forward. (Hear, hear.)
Capt. HARRIS thought no ground had been stated by After a few words from Mr. RICARDO,
the mover and seconder of this motion sufficient to induce The house then divided.—For the motion, 15.5
the house to grant It. Against it .... 61-94
Mr. WAWN trusted also that the government would PENALTIES AGAINST ROMAN CATHOLICS.
watch with jealousy the constitution of the proposed Mr. WATSON moved for leave to introduce a !till "for
committee, in order to secure • fair inquiry, and one the further repeal of enactments im toeing pains and penal-
from which the interests of the British shipowners should ties upon her Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, on account
not suffer. (Hear, hear.) of their religion." The hon. member said that the hill was
Sir R. PEEL wished to sate very shortly hie intention to similar to that which he introduced last session What he
give his support to the motion of the hon. member for Stoke reposed waesimply to repeal the remnant of penal laws affect-
(Mr. Hi ). He (Sir R. Peel) thought there could be ing Roman Catholics. The house bad already sanctioned
no reason whatever why there should not be an inquiry into the introduction of such a measure by the course which it
the operation and effect of the navigation laws—(hear, hear) took last session, and he did not apprehend any opposition to
, —or why there should not be an opportunity afforded for his present motion.
ascertaining whether the maintenance of those laws exactly Sir R. INGLIS mid there were two divisions on the
as they at present exist was really for the interest of British honourable and learned gentleman's bill of late session,
commerce, of British shipping, and, above all, whether they and the last was adverse to it by a large majority.
are essential and necessary for the purpose of securing the In thew day, when any change in any department of the
maritimeservice of the country. (Hear.) Hegave his assentto administration or laws of the country was proposed, the
the proposed inquiry, not for the purpose of giving effect to mere fact that it was • change was, he feared, with the
the particular views and opinions of the honourable gentle. great holly of the peconle, a sufficient recommendation.
man who sought it by this motion—it was proposed by (Laughter.) In the beginning of the last pension, the hon.
an Independent member of the house, and assent*: to by and learned gentleman proposed a bill, the object of which
the government, and being so proposed, he apprehended was to repeal the act of supremacy, to legalise the monastic
that those who assented te the motion would in no degree orders, and to allow prelates of the Church of Rome to
be bound by the particular views which that hon. gentleman assume the titles of English sees. The present bill, though
proposed—bat he gave his assent to the inquiry, on the full in some respects preferable to the former one, legalised the
understanding that it was to be a committee, not to give introduction of the monastic order'. ; and he should feel it
effect to any particular preconceived notions, but before his duty to give it all the opposition in his power.
which there should he • bona fide inquiry into all the Sir G. GREY hoped that the house, having allowed the
bearings of this very important question. (Hear, hear.) hill to be introduced before, would not then refuse its
On that understanding he gave his ready sseent to this consist-
proposal. It had been remarked in the course of this Mr. SHAW asked the hon. and learned mover to state
debate that the navigation laws had endured for 200 what be desired to do beyond what had already been
laears ; he, however, appreh aided that the principle of those socompliehed s
ws was of a much older date, and that it was almost simul- Mr. WATSON said the bill which he introduced last sins
taneous with the existence of commercial and maritime sion contained all that was embraced in the government bill,
marine, and of an earlier period than the protectorate But and aim in that which he now sought to introduce. There
whatever had been its antipathy to such a course, thiscountry were still certain infringementa of the Act of Supremacy
had been compelled by necessity to relax those laws. In whish were offences at common law, and the main feature of
1815 why had they been relaxed I—not in any speculative this bill was, that it would repeal the penalties now affecting
notions of any superior advantages to be gained, but because the regular clergy of the church of Rome.
America had determined to introduced the same principles— Col. SIBTHORP was determined to oppose • measure
to lay a duty on Britishislips and British goods, and, in point which tended to undermine the Protestant church.
of feet, the question then was whether by rigidly maintain. Leave was then given to bring in the hill, which was in-
ing the navigation laws this country would cause a prase &need with the names of Lord John Manners and Mr. B.
once to be given to the manufactures of other countries Escott.
in the American market, or whether by a reboot- TENANT RIGHT.
in
of these laws a considerable portion of the Mr. PINEY, in moving for lease to introduce a bill fee
American trade should be enured. Again, in 1824, the improvement of agricultural tense- right, paid that he
when Mr. Huakisson made a farther relaxation, he appres would not then explain the details of the measure, but he
hended that right hon. gentleman did so because Prussia was could assure the house that in preparing them he had moo
shoot imitating the example of the United States, as would earefully consulted practical men, both farmer. and land-
be found fro= Mr. Huskiseon's speech in 1826, on the ship. lords, and he had reason to believe that it would prove Wk.
ping interests of the country, when he explained his motives factory to the tenantry of the country.—Agr ed to.
in signing the Reciprocity Treaties with Prussia, Norway, CORPORAL PUNISHMEN I' IN THE NAVY.
Sweden. and other northern European nations, in 1821. Mr. HUME moved for • copy of the returns of corporal
It was the change in the commercial system at that time and other punishments on board e .ch of her Majesty's ships
which compelled the relaxation of these laws. Then let the is the royal navy, in each year from the let of January,
inquiry be made to ascertain whether the recent changes in 1844, to the 31st of December, 1846, stating the name,
the commercial policy of this country may not have rendered it retina., nature of the offence, date rat punishment, the num.
expedient to make some further change in the navigation laws, her of lashes, and remarks of co nmand, oin-thief or senior
regard being had to the maintenance of the maritime defence officer, as to any excess of punishment, or otherwise, accord-
of the realm, and he hoped the government would take care log to the schedules published and ordered in the Admiralty
that the committee should be so constituted, and the inquiry instructions, dated the lit day of Januiry, 1844, fur the
-so directed, that, come to what decision and conclusion it government of her Majesty's nand service; stating, also,
might, the dispassionate and impartial conduct of the tom- the number of seamen and marines employed in each year,
mittee should moire to its final judgment as much authority and the average number flogged ; itirai guielaile those with
in the county an that of any other 'nailer tribunal. With and then without trial by court-martial ; dieinmf shine the
this understanding he fully concurred in the notion. (Hear.) number of commissioned eed warrant and potty officers;
Mr. HUDSON believed that any alteration in the iodating alto, specifying the names of her Majody'e ships and vermeils,
navigation law., would not only be injurious to the shipping and the names of the commanders, in which no corporal
intersit, of which his constitueoto formed a part, but also to punishment. hase been inflicted in any of three years. The