The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-13 00:00:00

ttli
Bear,"
•
tofall
.tats
thalkitia bad eennmunication with a leading , gettion to the ,E
member of the while party—he did not know whether the rents a little more. (" ear, and a laugh) This e •
tun. menthe, used tilt word " au.•borised," but the imperil- not his construction, but the leferene • to be deducts! from
!lon was that he spoke from author;*v— to the t fleet that if the hoe. gentleman'. speech. (Hear, hear.) But he should
the Derby government wet ejected iOtm office, the whig like to ask what as the ease in Sentlend in this respect!
government, if ft succeeded, would not vet the income tax like
believed if it was title that the fa:l had been small ie
upon Ireland. (Likud opposition cheers.) He (Mr. Lucas) Englund it had bmn much smaller in Scotland. Tha hon.
had not been a party in bringing these qu nations forward gentleman had entered into a discussion of the general
in any way, directly or indirectly, and had nothing to do condition of the farmer, and the effect which the fall in
with the question that hod been raised ; as to „natters post prices had bed upon his profits. Now he deprecated any
that were within hie knowledge, he felt called up on to state change in the income tax as applying to farmers on that
what was his distinct recollestion of these facts. (Hear, I grourd, the true principle of legislation being that farming
hear.) Ile was perfectly certain that the mats-mane was I like all other occupations must be supposed to find its level
made to them when they were in doubt as to the .•ourse in the ordinary competition between man and man.
they should take respecting the budget, and that it was sequently they had no right to suppose that the profits of
made for the purpose of influencing their votes. (Opposafarmers the were less than they were some time ago, but
tion cheers.) And although, when a gentleman had eo that the fall in price which bad take n place had been met
make up his mind on a particular subject, a number of by increased production consequint upon drainage, the ie.
considerations might influence him, and it was impossible trodaction of machinery, and improved modes of cultiva-
te say how much he might have been urged by one in 1)06. ties. But the main consideration urn which he resisted
cubit, yet it was a matter of fact that communication had this amendment wan that the (Oat et was already provided
been made—authorised they felt entitled to consider it— for. It would be fair in parliament to say we have fixed a
and that that communication was followed uP by the speech standard of assessment fur the former which eaves him from
of the right hon. member for Halifax, who warned them all the vexetims operations of the tax and which we believe
(tbe Irish members) not to be gulled—(loud opposition to be equitable. But having said that, in the belief that it
ebeera)—he was using the very words of the right hon. was putting the farmer on at least as good a footing as all
baronet from Hansard—not to be gulled by the promises other dames of the community, it went a step further to
of the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire, adding imp:ove his condition, and gave Into the option of tame
that lrishmeu would be greater fools than he had ever con- led under schedule Don his profits, but of course
at-
eidered them if they allowed themselves to be " gulled" tended with the inqiiiatorial examination into his affairs,
by a proposition the real objectof which was to introduce from which, under tile first plan, he was exempt, lie
the small end of the wedge into Irish finance. thought the hon. gentleman had, in speaking of the farmer's
(Loud cheers from the opposition.) He (Mr. profits, fallen into the common error of omitting to Lucas) had not the slightest doubt that the com- into the account the cost of. living. It was usual amongst
munication was an authorised communication proceeding farmers to look upon the cost of maintaining them_
la some way from the right hon. member for Wells. (" No, selves and their families us part of the expense of culti-
sm" from the ministerial benches.) That it was as autho crating the farm ; and the being exempt from the itiqui.
rimed communication was unquestionable, and bucked up as sitorial examination into all these matters was no 'Man
It war by the strong, vehement, and pointed remarks of the advantage to the farmer. But parliament had your
right boa. member for Halifax, that communication, backed further, and had said to the farmer, you may take
your
up by such an entreaty, did, as a matter of fact, influence choice between two alternatives. If you do not wish an ex.
Ys (Mr. Lucas's) mind. (Loud opposition cheers.) It did amination into your affairs, if you know that your profits
In only a small degree, but he pledged his honour as a are mere than half your rent, you may be assessed under
gentleman, that in some small but distinctly rememberable schedule B, on the moiety of your rent ; but if in any year
degree that "authorised" assertion did influence his mind your profits are less than the moiety, then you can claim
in the course he had pursued. (Hear.) to be assessed under schedule Das a trader, and on proving
Mr. BOWYER wished to add, with reference to what before commissioners inyourown district—persons who will
had just fallen from the hon, member for Meath, that he have sympathy with farmers—that your profits have not
did not for one moment deny that there had been a conver- reached the amount charged, can obtain an abatement if
action as to what the whig party would do in the event of you have not paid, or a return of the difference if yea
their coming into office, but he still repeated that ho had have paid. This was not only a just, but a most liberal sad
not looked upon the communications which took piece as indulgent arrangement. The hon. gentleman said this was
having anything like authority. delusion because the farmer kept nu accounts. la the first
Mr. M. O'CONNELL, in answer to the hon. member for place he denied that this was correct in regard
Meath, genied that he had said a word about "authorised" to the bulk of the farmers, especially in the north • but if
communications. lie had never stated anything of the this were the only difficulty h., had no doubt that the
kind, and his recollection was very distinct. He could not farmers themselves, or their sons or wives, would soon leant
have stated it. (Ministerial cheers and opposition laughter.) to keep accounts. A large body of the farmers did keep
He merely stated what he had repeated to the house that accounts, and were acquainted with the law under which
1 evening, that he had it on the authority of a conversation they could claim to be assessed under schedule D; and
with the right hon. member for Wells, but he did not state what had been the extent of relief under it? The total
that either that right hon. gentleman or himself were amount paid by the tenant farmers was 330,0001., including
" accredited." He had nothing further to add to what he Scotland, where all the farmers kept accounts, and the
bad elready placed before the house. whole amount of relief granted under the new
GREVILLE would not have attempted to occupy clause was between 5,0001. and 6,0001. a year,
• the house for a moment, were it not for the great difference and last year, 1852, it ;had been 3,419/. time
of opinion that prevailed. The statement of the hon. mem- that state of facts, to accede to the motion would not
her fur Meath bad been called in question. Now, he must be a concession but a paltering with the tax, and with the
state, for his own part, that he had attended every meeting case of all the classes which were dealt with under it, and
of the Irish members, and had a perfect recollection of the open the door to other motions for exemption.
meeting in question. As far as he had understood the hon. Sir F. KELLY made a last earnest appeal on behalf
member feel ralee, who was in the chair, that hon. member of the farmers of England, than whom no class of the
said that he had authority to make a statement to this whole community was more justly entitled to the sympathy
effect: Vote to put out Lord Derby's government, and that of the home,.
in the event of tho whips coming into office, the income tax Mr. BRIGHT said that the hon. and learned gentleman
w..uld not be extended to Ireland. (Loud opposition appeared to have been speaking from what might be called
cheers.) He had a most distinct recollection of that state- a Suffolk brief. (" Hear," and a laugh.) If that were so,
meat, but he had not since heard another word about it. he should say that the hon. and learnea gentleman had been
(Laughter.) badly advised, and that the facts bud not been fairly remit.
Mr. V. SCULLY said he had not intended to interfere seated to the committee. First of all with regard to the
in the discussion, believing that it was hardly worthy of the airing of taxes which he had shown were paid by the far-
house to found debates on these lobby conversations. mer. It must be in the recollection of the hon. and learned
(" Hear," and laughter.) Bait he had also a clear recollec. gentleman that the right hon. gentleman the member for
tion of the meeting in question. (" Oh, oh," and laughter.) Buckinghamshire, when be sat on those (the ministerial)
And as he had taken rather a prominent part subsequently benches, in one of his powerful speeches, die
in consequence of the statemeets then made, he would put posed of those taxes in a very summary men-
the house in possession of what really occurred. A meet- ner, and satisfied the house that the arguments
ing was held en the Bth December, the Irish Land Bill which he bad formerly based on those taxes were fallacious,
having, on the 7th, been referred, with the consent of the and that the category in which those taxes were included
Derby government, to a select committee. They (the Irish was obsolete, and that they were not to be referred to again
members) were assembled, openly, to consider the interests in that house. Even if that were not the case, the bon. and
of their country in a straightforward manner, and it was learned gentleman took au unfair advantage of their credu-
stated by the hon. member for Meath and the gentleman lily, when he said that those taxes were all paid by those
who acted with hint, that they had obtained from Lord for whom he was pleading. He must know that more than
Derby's government what they could never have obtained half of them was paid by property which was not land, and
from the whigs—namely, the recognition of Sharman Craw- not connected with agriculture ; that in 1842, and weft-
ford's bill. This was the first indication of an attempt to dent to that time, the proportion paid by the farmer was
induce them in a body to support the tory ministry. greater than the proportion which the land now paid, and
(Ministerial cheers.) He should mention, that at the same that year after year an increasing proportion was paid by
moment Lord Derby was making his celebrated deals- property not agricultural, and a diminishing proportion by
ration that he repudiated Sharman Crawford's bit agriculture.
altogether. (Laughter.) They were not aware of Sir F. KELLY said that the figures which he had stated
Lord Derby's declaration at the time, while it showed that the greater proportion was paid by the land.
was said on the other hand, that the tories were Mr. BRIGHT—But if other property was equally
introducing the small edge of the wedge for an Irish in- charged with all those, and they had no special claim to
come tax. Another said, "What will the whigs do if they relief in either case, the argument of the hon. and learned
come in ?" Another said, " Let us go in a deputation, and gentleman failed, What was the proposition of the boa,
ascertain what they will do." Then it was said, " Ob. member fur Berkshire? In a simple form it appeared to
with regard to their intentions, we have it from a very be this, that farmers who now paid rent at the rate of 3001.
active member of the whig party, that, if they come in, a year, and were assessed to the income tax on 1501. a year,
they will not impose an income tax on Ireland." (Oppo- were only 'o pay on 1001. a year. That would be entirely
sition cheers.) He (Mr. Sculiy) then rose and said, that as excluding from the operation of the income tax the farmers
one Irish member he would not join any deputation to gen- who paid rents from 2001. to 3001. a year, who, he hoped,
tlemen who we. not in office to ascertain what were shale could be numbered by some thousands, and that whilst you
intentions. He added, that if they wanted to communicate were going to include in it thou-ands of persons connected
with the Irish members, they knew where to find them— with trade, clerks, mechanics with 21. a week wages, you
(a laugh)—and that if they were going to do nothing, would not include farmers who paid rents between 2001.
there was no use running after them. (Laughter.) lie and 3001. a year. That was the moot extmordinary propo.
remembered a deputation to the right hon. member fit sition he ever heard, even from the opposite eideof the house.
Bucks, beaded by the hon. sod leatned member for Kil- It was most preposterous when mechanics with wages of 21.
kenny, which was not received ; and one to the tory per week were about to be subjected to an income tax, to
Attorney-General, at which the hon. and learned mem- ask for an exemption for farmers, who, say with 300 acres,
bee for Kilkenny complained in language which would have, or should have, a capital of 3,0001., and who,
could hardly be considered classical, that he was of course, notwithstanding what the hon. and learned gen-
" snubbed.' (Loud laughter.) He (Mr. Scully) re- tleman seemed to believe, made a good interest on their
membered that the hon. member for Meath did all in his capital. He (Mr. Bright) characterised the proposition as
power to induce the Irish members to support the tory one of the most impudent ever made is that house. ("Hear,
government. (Loud ministerial cheers.) He must agent bear," and cheers.)
protest against the Inconvenience of quoting these lobby Sir F. KELLY could not appreciate the argument of the
conversations; as an instance of which he would mention a hon. member for Manchester, inasmuch as the hon. mem-
eircurnstaece that had occurred a few days since, when the ber had taken for granted that he (Sir F. Kelly) was in fa-
irish members were in the balance as to how they should your of subjecting artisans to the income tax. All be could
yote--(loud laughter),—while they were considering the say was, that if the bon. member would propose the ex-
very difficult proposition that had been submitted to them emption of that class he would vote fur the motion.
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for extending the in- Mr. BANKES would not deny, on this occasion, the
name tax to Ireland, while at the same time he remitted the prosperity of the farmers ; but the house was going to im-
sonsolidated annuities. It was openly stated in one of the pose an income tax for seven years, and how could be feel
public departments of that house—he meant the dining- sure that their present prosperity would continue for seven
room—(laughter)—by an hon. member, who said he would years? ("Hear, hear,' and cheers.) He would vote for
subsequently state it in the house—one of the members for the amendment, believing that a case had been made out
King's County, that the bon. member for Mayo was in a and had not been answered.
petition to inform them that if the tory government came Mr. WHALLEY took that opportunity to enter his gene-
back, they would grant a total remission of the annuity tax, ml protest against the income tax, which he described as "a
and refrain from laying the income tax on Ire- tax upon the lifeblood of the morality of the middle
land. (Loud laughter and ministerial cheers.) Further, that classes."
the spirit tax would be settled in the manner originally pro- Mr. AGLIONBY would be found in the same lobby with
posed by the noble and learned lord the member for Cole- the hon. member fur Manchester; but he felt bound to ex-
eunt, and that no additional spirit duty would be levied. press his strongest dissent from the representation which
(Continued laughter.) He had only to add that he had that hon. gentleman had made of the present condition of
not been influenced by this conversation. He regretted the the farmers. He had no doubt that in time they would be
imposition of the income tax upon Ireland, but trusted a prosperous class; but at present, so far as he knew any-
that it would be levied in the most modified form pos- thing of them, they were not so. He was not equal to his
eible. (Hear, hear.) hon. friend the member for Manchester; but he had eyes,
Sir R. INGLIS submitted to the house whether the and he could see that farming was not just now so very
practice of the hon. member who had just sat down cor- flourishing a trade.
responded with his professions, whether he had or had not Mr. BRIGHT—But the hon. member for Dorset (Mr.
introduced lobby conversations into their discussions, whe- Henke') does not deny it.
thee .such discussions were calculated to raise the house in Mr. AGLIONBY did not care who didn't deny it; he
public estimation, and whether representative in- formed his own judgment—(" Hear, hear," and laughter)
*cautions throughout Europe might not be pre- —and be supposed it didn't require true to be a county
judiced by the manner in which this, the member to know something of the farmers. (Laughter.)
first of all representative institutions, permitted its Mr. KENDALL stated that is that part of the country
beigoeu to be intereupted. (Hear, hear.) He did hope (East Cornwall) with which he was connected, the farmers
that the good sense and good feeling of the house, consider- were merely eking out a miserable existence.
lug the mass of public business before it, would consider Mr. HUME said there seemed to be great misunderstand-
-1 that sufficient space had been allowed to gentlemen to set ing about the trade of a farmer. He did not think that any
themselves right in the judgment of each other and of the man ought to commeace business withuut a capital. (Hear,
house, and that at least public business might be resumed. hear.) The farmer ought to have a capital of 101. to the
lie cautiously abstained from alluding to individuals, but acre. Those farmers who had capital might be making a
he trusted the house would consider it had had enough of good business by farming, whilst those who had nano
this discussion. (Hear, hear.) might be in great distress. Therefore an assessment on half
The house them passed to the order of the day. the rent might be less than the one ought to pay and more
WAYS AND MEANS. than the other ought to pay. His opinion was that farmers
In committee of ways and means, on the second resolu- ought to be taxed like others, on their profits. But there
tion on income tar, was &difficulty in doing this, because the farmers kept no
Mr. VANSITTART moved to leave out the word
accounts. Now, he thought that no one ought to be tole-
" moiety" and insert the words" third part." The hon. rated in business who could not keep accounts. ("Hear,
member, who was most indistinctly beard, was understood hear," and a laugh.) The small farmer, to his own
proposition,know-
stoupwohnicthhewetsuneingterateddsfour thesir re ledge,
lief s ray
yf
thatt
he farmers,hs
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could (Hear.) T h d
It was the same in all business. hey had ear
aledgmoue'ntehdadto asucoffnerfiesdentlirmes (iHneateh,ehelret.) few
wut yeah
t the noon
which
Peel's proposition to reduce from three-fourths to one-half. was, that they undertook more than they could accomplish.
undertook
regard to the 200,0001., and who became bankrupt because h e
not admit that the hon. gentleman had made out any lately of a contractor who possessed from 100 0001. to
case for the change he proposed. With
would recollect that since the repeal of the corn laws the in- not
think that one-third WAS an adequate amount at which
argument of low prices, the honourable gentleman contracts to the extent of 1,000,0001. or 1,500,0001. He did
come tax bad been renewed several times--once in 1818, to assess the farmers, and he should therefore oppose the
when prices were low, and the re was a prospect of their amendment. (Hear, hear.)
becoming lower; and again in 1851, when the prices of Mr. MALIN S thought that the bon. member for Cock
agricultural produce were exceedingly low ; but, notwith- mouth, after his remarks that night, ought to haveers
voted
standing the state of prices. the tax was renewed as it now for protection, and he could account for his not doing so
stood, and the House of Commons and the farmers also, he only on the strength of party feelings.
believed, received with satisfaction the settlement effected Sir J. SIIELLEY said the hon. gentleman seemed to
by his right hon. friend the present President of the Board put himself forward as a teacher of landlords, hut atter the
of Control (Sir C. Wood), who, in the clause he then intro- opinions he had given with respect to capital, he (Sir
duced, put the farmers, in regard to the income tax, on a
J. Shelley) should he sorry to be in his class.
more favourable footing than any other class. He was jus- Mr. 13. STANIIOI'E denied that farmers were M the
tified in saying that no class of the community stood in such prosperous condition alleged.
a favourable position as the farmers in regard t 3 this tax, Mr. VANSITTART replied.
and that of itself was a strong reason for proceeding with The committee then divided—
further exceptional legislation in their favour. (Hear.) For the amendment 6O
The hon. gentleman said, "Put the English farmer in the Against it
same position as the Scotch and Irish farmer." If that The original resolution was then tweed to.
were done it would at once afford ground for a fresh appeal
____TAR LEGACY DUTY.

to parliament again to alter the law in favour of the farmers
of Scotland and of Ireland ; an t, with regard to the Scotch
farmer, he must say his case weuld then be irresistible. In
the first place, the public burdens which wet a borne in
Scotland by the tenant were here borne by the landlord,
and constituted a part of the rent. The hon. gentleman
seemed to infer that in Scetland the tenant was allowed to
deduct these charges, but he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) believed he was wrong. At all events they
formed a portion of the gross rent on which the farmer was
assessed, while the rent on which the English farmer was
assessed did not include these burdens. Again, in Scotland,
the land, he believed, was more highly cultivated than in
this country, but as the rent and cost of cultivation were
higher, the farmer had a smaller share in the profit. The
hon. gentleman had stated that the f II of rents in England
hod not been adequate to the Lill in prices. (Hear,
hear.) If that were so, the speech of the hon.
smitten= might be regarded as a liberal sag-

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
following resolution That, towards raising the supply
granted to her Majesty, the stamp duties payable by law
upon or for or in respect of legacies, shall be granted and
made payable upon and for every succession to the bene-
ficial enjoyment of any real or personal estate, or to the
receipt of any portion or additional portion of the income
or profits thereof, that may take place upon or in conse-
quence of the death of any person, under whatever
title, whether existing or future, such succession may be
derived."
The resolution having been read from the table,
Mr. DISII.AELI thought it would Ire convenient to the
committee if the right hon. gentleman would now make
his general statement with regard to the preposition of
the government.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (11*
tirely concur in the opinion of the right hon. gentleman—
(hur, hear)—and I also feel that, considering the greatiar