The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-01 00:00:00

poor law unions, but this was a point that had created
as much difference of
,opinion se the county begirds.
His own opinion was to at it • oxid not In advisable to put
them to the troutl', the inconvenience, and the expense of
electing a new set of municipal local bllks. The duty of
the local boards, for which purpose it would be necessary
that they sir uld meet probably six times in the year, would
be to suparintecd the expendit:re and mensgement of tsle
roads—which of eourie would be in the hones of the sue-
veyora—the amount tobeexpecclel being flied by the county
beards, Hh opinion was that the poor law guardians as
already constituted might very proper,' he entrusted with
,the powers of their Itwal highway boards, 'hough if • y
ether machinery should be suigested ter the purpose to
should be ready to give to the suggestion his best considers-
den. The proposition that the kcal highway rata should
be extiaguished, and the whole charge imposed oaths cowry
rite, would to in effect an alteration in namo rather than
in substance. If, however, it should be thought de-
sirable to keep up the name of a hichway rate,
he knew of no reason for not making the charge as •
county highway rate, but cEstinguiebing it from the ordinary
county rate. His opinion, generally, was in favour of the
oonsmidation of rates as far as possible, in order to avoid
the expense of collection and contusion which must Imes-
sexily attend the levying of a varier of rate,. (Hear.) He
had now stated as near as he could the principal alterations
be proposed to make is the bill, in order to bring it more
in accordance with what appeared to him to be the view of
the majority of the house. He had no wish to press the
measure forward with any Witte; on the contrary, he desired
to afford time for the fullest coesiderajon, therefore he
should be prepared to take whatever course the general feel-
ing glib house might deem the most convenient. If the
be should so for approve, as to be willing to entertain
the plan he had sketched oat, he would suggest that the
bill should now be read a second time, afterwards that it
dwell be committed pro forma, for the purpose of int/a-
dagio" the amendments—that the bill es amended should
then be prieted and circulated, and that the discussion
should be taken on going into committee on the bill at some
dletent day. (Hear.) He would now move that the bill be
reed a seeonddme.

Mr. MILES had some down to the house with the inten-
tion of opposing the seemed reeding of the bill, objecting as
he did to the imposition of any additional burden on the
county Tates for the payment of the debts of the turnpike
trusts ; but the principle of the steam* bed btu se @bengal
by del explanadeas of the belt.
k* statementss he tied t tttrrii; sYwSC ''
of the tereylke buts, not In Aglaia Me Wee* ' '
tbe aos Ileitteetasee of the and thointerese IS 1
but alitMoprielleoreadthig flamill-tegayeddebat -.al ~debt in a eare—that he thought bolero rejecting the sea-
s
sure they should bare an opportunityof examining the docu-
ments on which that calculation was founded. He therefore
merited that the second readin4 should be deferred to a
future day, and that in the mean time the bill should be re-
printed with the amendments, and that the papers he bad
referred to should be laid on the table, in order that mem-
bers might he enabled to judge for themselves of the powers
of the trusts to ;ay off their debts within the time stated,
because, if they were not, the rate in aid must be resorted to,
and it was necessary they should know whether it might not
amount to double or treble what the hon. gentleman
had calculated. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. RICE observed that it would be necessary to commit
the bill pro forma, in order to have it reprinted in its altered
form ; nothing, therefore, would be lost by now reading it a
second time.
Mr. C. LEWIS, in answer to a question, said the clause
provided that the chairman and vice chairmen of the boards
of waywardens were not necessarily to fill the corresponding
Aloes in the local road boards, though they were not to be
prevented from doing so, if chosen.
Mr. W. PATTEN would not oppose the course proposed
by the hon. gentleman (Mr. C. Lewis), but hoped that
full time would be allowed for the consideration of the bill
in its amended form, not only by the house but by the coun-
try, before it was proceeded with in committee. (Hear,
hear) He wished to call attention to one point. Ile be-
lieved that the security of the mortgagees of the eo'vent
trusts would not be improved by the measure, but rather de-
terioreted.
Mr. BRIGHT had intended to suggest the postponement
of the second reading, to give a little more time to the coun-
try for coesidering it; but he understood now that it was
not proposed to go into committee at an early period, proba-
bly not earlier than three weeks or a month hence. (" Hear,
hear," from Mr. C. Lewis.) If so, he thought it might be
desirable to pass the second reading, and have the bill re-
printed with the amendments, and circulated through the
country, is order that it might be known exactly what was
proposed. (Hear.) His experience as a road trustee
led him to the cotchision that the saving in the ex-
penditure would, under the new management, be much
greater than the hon. gentleman had calculated upon.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER observed, that in many parishes
the highway rate was extremely light, especially in those
where the roads had been maintained in good order, and
where the poor and highway rates had net been jobbed to-
gether; and it a uniform rate all over the country, collected
as the county rata now was, or rather as an addition to the
county rate, were imposed, great injustice would be done to
those parishes. He suggested that the fairer course would
be to fix the rate for the future in each locality on the aver-
age of the last three or five years.
Sir G. STRICKLAND objected to the principle of the
bill, as being a departure from the old English custom of
local management. If there was to be a board of magis-
. tutu, he would leave it to them to appoint the surveyors
1 Mr. HENLEY protested against taking the second read-
, tog pro forml2, and suggested that, as it was proposed to
, alter the bill to suck an extent as to make it in fact a new
' measure, it should be withdrawn, and re-introduced in
its amended form. The only difference, as far as the county
1 rate was concerned, between the new proposition and the old
war, that it was now proposed to make the burden lee* in
' amount, but to extend it over a logger period, viz ,28 instead
' of 21 yeah ; therefore, his objection to the principle was tin-
' touched.
' Sir G. GREY denied that the proposition of his ions
, friend, was to read the bill a second time pro jormil, or to
prevent the fullest discussion of its principle at the velment
stage, but that, having with the view of obviating objections
' which had been urged, and in compliance with suggestions
made to him, consented to certain alterations in the bill, he.
proposed, WI posing the principle should be affirmed at the
second reading, to go into committee proper/Id, to introduce
' such alterations, and afterwards, at some distant day, to die-
: Gum the bill u altered on the motion for going into committee
, to consider the details.
Mr. NEWDEGATE objected altogether to a proposition
the object of which, after all, was to impose on the county
rates the liabilities of the turnpike trusts. The hon gess-
' tleman who introduced the bill bad quoted from returns
which were not, before the beuse; he had given the result*
derived from England alone, whereas the calculations in the
hands of hon. members included items of expense from
i Wales. The expense; in the two countries could not be
separated, and certainly the returns on the subject ought to
be in the hands of the hon. members of the house.
Mr. R. PALMER said that be had come down expressly
to opposethe second reading of the bill, because he consi-
dered it unjust to throw upon the county rates the debt,
owing by turnpike trusts. He wanted to know upon
what principle it was proposed to make one party
liable for the incumbrances of another? He believed
that in all cases of turnpike trusts, the party who
thought proper to lay out his money on bonds from these
trusts expected to receive a very good interest for it. Tee
bonds were of marketable value, end were always purchased
with the risk of whether a good or a bad bargain had been
made. How, then, wee the country to be able with
the payment of debts so contracted? (Hear.) e confessed
that be was very much in the position of the hon member tor
Soraersetshire ; and that, as the bill was to be completely
altered, ha would not now oppose its second reading, pro-
vided he want considered as committed to It in any way at
a future stage. But as the proposed alteration was intended
to be so extensive, he thought it would be very desirable if
the bill, ma now laid upon the table, were withdrawn ;
and if a new Leisure, embodying the projected pro-
positions, was brought in, and the discussion upon •
that measure postponed to a future day. (Hear, hear.)
Sir W. JOLIFFE concurred in the opinion expressed by
the hon. gentleman who had just at down relative to the
propriety of postponing the second reading of this bill, seeing
the t change which ft was proposed to make in the
ple of it since it had been laid on the table. He did
not gait* understand whether the county or the local board
was henceforth to have anything to do with the turnpike
trusts ; but if he apprehended aright, the whole of tile turn-
pike trusts were to be formed into unions of counties, and
were to be managed by commissioners in London. (" No;
no.") He must say the hulk et the present law were se
great, both as to turnpikes and highways, that he was sur-
prised to find so few country gentlemen expressing a wish
that some comprehensive measure should at once be oat.
ried out. (Hear.) Why, these gentlemen could not stand in a
worse position than they were at present. (Hear, hest.)
There was collected by the trusts a sum of 1,267,0001, and
by the highways about 1,600,0001., and, since the adoption
of railways throughout the country, the whole of this
burden, to the amount of nearly 3000,0001., fell exclusively
almost opft the landed Interest. There was no class of men
who suffered more from it than the farmers ; and any hon,
gentleman who had ever managed a fares must be well swine
how eternally the subject of turnpike tolls was brought undet
his notice. (Hear, hear.) These tolls interfered with all
fanning operations ; and in that portion of the bill which
referred to them he sew very great benefit likely to be de-
rived by the country. (Hear, hear.) Much stress had been
laid, and not without reason, upon the propriety of dealing
with the property of the bondholders in turnpike trusts
in a spirit of justice. He held some of these
bonds himself, and he received upon them very
different amounts of interest. Some paid eye per cent.,
others one, and others two ; but the whole of then' were
unsaleable In the market, and the whole 6,000,0001. of
money thus invested were, in his opinion, locked up. and
there was not security f r a single &Mice of it. He wag
sure that no hon. gentleman present would think that he
had provided for his son, h's daughter, or his wife, after his
death, by leaving them a parcel of these bonds. (Hear.)
If, teen, this was the care, eerily. the circumstances of the
bondholders in the trusts in question ought fairly to be taken
into the consideration of the house.
Mr. SPOONER said his hon. friend who had just ;teemed
his seat had expand his surprise that country gentlemen
should oppose the present bill • hut the hon. gentleman,
ought to be aware that the agricultural interest was now
severely taxed, and that the pressure and unfair principle of
taxation to whisk it was subjected would both be thcreseed
if this bill paned. (Hear.) It had been said in the tour*
of that debate, that the ol*ection to the principle of the bill
had been totally removed by the speech of the hon. proposer.
But it was very little removed, for what was the
plan proposed by the hon. gentleman the Under
Secretary of State ? It was this :—to take the tolls now an-
swerable for the repairs of roads, and to apply them in
making up deficient tolls, and then to come epos the county .
for the repain of toads. (Heir, heir.) He believed tpK ..g44/.%
great number of turnpike trusts were no: only solves, __-;-",,
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