The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-30 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 30, 1847.

seemed m argue as if the resources of Ireland were perfectly
inexhaustible—(hear, hear),—and to be disposed for a Jack
Cade sort of legislation (as was understood), by which the
wants and wishes at all would be met. (Hear, bear.)
As to the objectios that the clause would, by its operation,
destroy the small fermate of Ireland, he would really ask
of what value such palms were to the country. (Hear,
hear.) He did not conceive that that *Need in ought to he
allowed to messil, 'nat./tea. member apposite (Mr. S.
Crawford) thought the matter ought to be left to the
discretion of the boards of guardians. He (Mr. Gregory)
was very anxious to see guardians who would be vigilant
keepers of the public purse, and he feared lest the cry of the
poor man's guardian" should he raised in the ocuntry.
Mr. 11. J. O'CONNELL supported the clause on the
ground that it would prevent the land from being burthened
with a class of persons who were neither labourers nor
farmers, but a sort of mixture of the two without the hhu-
ley of the one, or the skill of the other.
Col. RAWDON would like to knew how the clause would
affect the descendants of a person who had land of his own.
The case was an extreme one, but still it might arise.
M. ARCHBOLD said he knew men holding 10 acres of
land, who had obtained relief by means of employment on
the public works. In almost every instance of that kind, it
was the man's own fault that he was reduced to each a
position. It was the interest of all, from the highest to the
lowest member of the community, to get rid of farmers of
that descrip•ion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW (in reply to Col. Rawdon) observed, that if a
person happened to own a quarter of an acre of land, he
must of come dispose of it. (Hear, hear.) It was a great
stress of imagioat:en, however, to suppose such a case.
Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY said he was disposed to
move, as an amendment to the clause, that a person should
not receive relief if he occupied five acres of land. (Great
laughter.) The clause spoke only of a quarter of an acre.
Mr. I'. SCROPE witted to know whether the right bon.
gentleman (Sir G. Grey) h►d formed a proximate estimate
of the number of persons of this class who were likely to be
dismissed from their holdings through the operation of the
clause ? _ .

Sir G. GREY said he had not. The object of the clause
was, however, to diminish the number, and to separate the
really destitute from those who ought to cultivate the land.
As regarded the point rased by the other hon. member
(Mr. Ald. Humphery, he would observe that the clause, as
it stood, would effectually cut off tho claim of all persons who
held five acres —(" hear, hear," and laughter)—and all
other quantities of land exceeding the amount specified.
The committee theu divided—

For the Clause ll7
Against it 7-110
Mr. W. 8. O'BRIEN then moved the insertion of a
clause giving to the poor-law commiasioners the power of re-
vising and reconstructing electoral districts with a view to
secure a rating as nearly uniform throughout each union as
circumstances would permit. The hon. member adduced
several instances to show the inequality of the system of
assessment now prevailing.
Sir G. GREY said the poor-law commissioners already
possessed the power which this clause sought to give thorn,
and, therefore, it was unnecessary.
Mr. HAMILTON said nothing gave more dissatisfaction
in Ireland at present than the great disproportion in the
aasannients.
Mr. 2.1_,J. O'CONNELL confirmed this view.

Lord G. BENTINCK mentioned the case of Bsßina
union, portions of which were forty-six miles distant from
the union-house. The noble lord introduced an argument
that the public works might have been regulated far more
efficiently and cheaply, and affirmed that no lees than four
millions might have been, by better management, saved un-
der this head in the course of the put year. He stated that
between two and three millions of people might have been
fed, and lodging, and hospitals provided for them, at an out-
lay of seven millions. The noble lord went into a minute
detail of figures, to show in what manner he would hare ex-
=eed the money, instead of spending it in spoiling the roads.
would have been no leaving of the land untitled, and
in every respect the condition of the people would have been
raised, and the hundreds of thousands who had died through
the ndentanagentent and indifference of the government—
sad tits amber of which they kept is such profound
seereey—would have been saved.
Mr. LABOUCHERE remiudel the committee that the
clause which they were discussing was, " that the poor-law
commissioners should revise and re-constitute the unions' so
that nounion should contain more than 150,000 acres." He
was too unwilling is interfere with the progress of
i the bill to enter nto the topics brought forward by
the noble lord, but there was one assertion which the
noble lord had made, that the government were in-
different to the sufferings of the peoele of Ireland,
and were anxious to conceal from the house the number
at persons who had died in Ireland. He would content
himself with giving to that assertion as complete, as explicit,
and as direct a denial as his respect for the house would
permit. (Great cheering.) Ile must apologise to the house
for interposing even so far with the progress of the bill; but
he thought it his duty, as a minister of the crown, not to
permit such an assertion of the noble lord to pass unnoticed,
and what he had said was only wrung from him by the tone
and temper In which the speech of the noble lord had been
couched. (Cheers.)
Sir G. GREY urged the hon. member for Limerick to
withdraw the clause, and he (Sir G. Grey) would consider it
before the bringing up of the report.
Mr. REPTON' as a member on that (the apposition) side
of the house, was desirous of expressing his opinion that the
conduct of the government had been most considerate to the
people of Ireland.
After a few words from Mr.W. S. O'Betee and Mr. New-
ngoars, the clause was negatived.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN then moved the following clauses:
That the relief committee:, cosiMituted as Mbremill, doll consider
sad determine who are the persons entitled le resets.reltet in the
sewed electoral divisions ke width they set. and ash artily then'
*nice with repeat Or Me dims et ash masa who my apply for
robot to the Mord of frandas, sad doll w to their
whim the wan ecomplylng omit to be relsues laoad thhogree
worthome
sr oat edit
That the rats required to pay the MOW seat el beilliag the
weethonise Mom very unequally apse wertely in alas ameral
unions of leasd, sal that ths ripayessot of Malmo; lonosed wrier
tee =.ssf the poor-her morale come Meths amormisa of
dna be derma by mom or a rats ho amord-
ine to the asst whistles as ma maim maims so all meal& mo-
pert, thesegltetEshol.
That the, pose•law sossidsase *all UM inmates steps for
=sa mimasa et ratable prmerty hawelhaut In-
Mt poor malstagixed bums, am Make
by way eijeiftwa rent-dime. or any other amity, sioh=
to sal raise Wel it the relief of the pear in the sum manner as 11
the Mess= so recolsed were receivable ea rent.
which wear severally put and negatived.
Mr. W. 8. O'BRIEN then moved the adoption of a
clause to enable the guardians to put out to nurse orphans
or deserted children, and to charge the coat of their mainte-
nance upon the unions.
Sir G. GREY opposed the clause on the ground (as we
uniersto3d) that, under the Grand Jury Acts, revision was
made for such cases.
The clause was supported by Mr. M. J. O'Coggett, Mr.
BELLEW, and Sir H. W. BARRON.
Clause negatived.
Mr. V. STUART moved a clause empowering the guar-
discs of any union to attach to the poor-house thereof, if six
miles from any infirmary, buildings or wards, to be improved
of by the commissioners, for the reception of destitute poor
pardons requiring surgical assistance—the expense to be paid
out of the rates.
Sir 0. GREY promised to consider the clause, which was
thereupon negatived.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL (for Mr. J. O'Connell) moved a
clause to obviate possible differences among the guardians is
matters concerning religions grievances and the education of
youth, by enacting that •eltapel or apartment should be spe-
cially appropriated for the religious worship and practices of
each denomination of Christians amongst the pauper.; end,
also, that all mares concerning the appointment ordismissal
of the echoolmaster and schoolmistress, for each religious
denomination, should be delegated to a permanent sub-com-
mittee of the ard of guardians.
Sir G. GREY would consider the propriety of introducing
some provision to meet the object of the first part of the
clause ; but he entirely objected. to the second past, as he
deemed it most injudicious to interfere in this measure with
the management of schools.
Clause negatived.
Lord G. BENTINCK moved the addition of two cheeses,
of which he had given notice. lie object was the more com-
pletely to assimilate this bill to the English poor-law. The
first clause proposed that no deduction should be made from
the rent of ratable property, in respect of any rates levied
thereon, after the Ist of January, 1849. The effect of this
provision would be, that the tenant would pay the rates,
and an equitable arrangement would be made between him
and his landlord. In the course of the present and thefollow-
, big year, parties would be able to form an idea ofthe amount
of rated which would have to be paid ; and they would then be
its situation to make the arrangement referred to. At
present, the poor-rue valuation in Ireland was only about
three.fourtha of the rack-rental ; while the valuatson was
13,187,4701., the real value was about 17 millions. By the
arrangement which threw two-thirds of the rates on the
landlords, the occupying tenants had at present little inter.
eat in k,eping down the rates; and he proposed to remedy
this anomaly, by making the tenants liable for the whole
rates. In Ireland there were but 15,000 houses occupied by
the gentry, clergy, and persons of a higher class than
farmers, and about a million, occupied by more than di mil-
lions of persons, 490,000 of which houses were but mud
cabins, without either windows or doors. Con-
sidering that nearly as large an amount would probably be
disbursed in poor-rates as was now paid for the public works,
which was at the rate of about six millions sterling per
scum, and remembering that the annual rental of Ireland
was only 13,187,4701., and that mortgages existed to the
*mount of nine millions, it was highly probable that the
pea rate would amount to 20s. in the pound. The noble
bri then alluded to the operation of the Labour Rate
hot, end of the measures adopted by the late
government for giving relief to the necessitous ; and cited
some individual instances of theopersition of those measures.
It would be for the advantage of all parties to throw the en-
tire responsibility on the rate-payers, who would thus have
an interest in keeping down the rates by employing the poor
in cultivating the land. In this amendment he was follow-
ing out the principle laid down by the noble lord (J.Russell),
who had avowed that it was of the greatest importance to
give the rate payer aasersonal interest in watching and keep-
mg down the rate. The comity for the general adminis-
tration of out-door relief could be prevented, not
by the landlords, but by the tenant farmers who
were the principal employers of labour. He would
now move his second clause, the object of which
was to extend the application of the act 6 and 7 Via., by
which rates were recoverable on property rated to a net
annual value not exceeding 41., to property rated to a net
annual value not exceeding 51. His object in bringing be-
fore them this dame was to reduce the number of little rate-
payers, from whom it was very difficult to obtain rates.
Sir G. GREY asked the noble lord whether the third