The Express.
London, England, 1853-06-24 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING. JUNE 24, 11153.

particular interest in Indian aff tira, they exerci-ed no
eontrol over the Court of Directors who were electtal
by them. (Hear, hear.) The right honourable gen-
lemon proposed the introduction of a bye.law, by
which the system of canva.sing for seats in the Court of
Directors was to be abolished. The qua in of minimise
war no doubt a great and s.rious evil, because it tended to
keep good men out ; but he thought the provision for put-
ting en end to it would be towel to be completely nugatory.
(Hear, hear.) Ile objected to the measure because it was
not simply a measure of continuance, Ind because it would
aggravate the evils of the tenting system, by th-
en using the p weer of the 11 'aril of Control,
and depriving the Court of Directors of that re-
sponsibility which should attach to them, and made
them more dependent than ever on the government of the
day. The right hon. gentleman reviewed the whole system
of the administration of India, and he complimented the
' Board of Directors for the manner in which they had con-
ducted the government and affairs of that greet empire.
Ile (Lord Stanley) did slat complain, and was not surprised
that the right hon. gentleman should endeavour to place
their conduct in the fairest possible light. Ile would not
follow the right hon. gentleman at length into that large
subject. But with regard to the foreign relations and policy of
the Indian government, he did not hesitate to say that he
knew any empire which was so little exposed to the
danger of foreign invasion, because there were only two
points of 100 miles in extent by which it was possible to
penetrate into Asia. Yet notwithstanding this compara-
tive security from external aggression, for fifteen years
sines the renewal of the last charter, India was in a state
of war, so that whilst peace seemed to be the normal
condition in other countries, war seemed to be the normal
condition of our government in India. (Hear, hear.)
But when ho heard the defence so often set up
in justification of the wars carried on in India
namely, that they were wan of defence and not of
aggression, he confessed he felt some surprise, for his read-
ing of recent Indian history was quite different from those
persons who set up this defence. (Hear, hear) He
would admit, for the sake of argument, that the government
of India was not desirous of provoking wars, but he had
no hesitation in saying that every one of their recent wall
in India might be traced to the policy pursued by the Indian
government. He was not prepared to say that the Indian go-
vernment were not responsible for the lives and money
which were wasted in these wars. (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman passed rather lightly over the finan-
cial administration of the Indian government. And he
was not surprised at it, because anything more unsatisfac-
tory then their administration in this respect since the »-
newel of the last charter could not well be conceived.
(Hear, hear.) It was notorious that between the years
1838 and 1850 three was not a single year, with
the exception of 1849 and 1830, in which a
deficient y in the revenue did not exist. But it was
said—" Look how the revenue bas increased of late
years." Why, to be sure, it was natural that the amount
of taxation should increase with the extension of the area
from which it was to be drawn, and with the Punjaub and
Seth& and other territories recently acquired it was not
matter of surprise that the amount of money received
should be increased. But the question was whether the
revenue had increased in a greater proportion than the
amount of population and extent of territory acquired.
After some further observations, Lord STANLEY said—
He had endeavoured to show that the house was not
in a position to legistate at the present moment; he had
endeavoured to show that the dangers which it was sup-
posed would arise from delay were more imaginary than
real; he had endeavoured further to show that the govern-
ment measure was not as it professed to be, one of searching
reform, inasmuch as it dealt only with existing arrange-
ments; and lastly, taking one after another, the principal
branches of Indian administration, he had endeavoured to
. . . .

prove, what was undoubtedly his 'firm opinion, that what-
ever the Indian government might hare done, in whatever
respects it might have been successful—and be did not
deny that it had been successful in many respects—there
was in its administration, as conducted for the last 20 years,
ample room and sufficient cause for strict and searching in-
vestigation and inquiry before the house either passed a
verdict of approval as regarded the East India Company or
left is their hands the powers which they still possessed.
(Loud cheers.)
On the question being put,
Mr. LOWE said he could not but express his apprehen-
sion that the latter part of the noble lord's speech bad
tended to divert the attention of the house front the real
question before it. The question raised on the second
reading of the bill was whether or not they were to deal
with the future government of India. The question raised
by the noble loru was the preliminary one of whether they
were to go into the question at all, and though be had no
doubt that the noble lord, in introducing it, acted in con-
formity with a sense of duty, yet he could not but think
that before the debate closed the house would have
came to regret that he had done so. He feared that
throughout the debate they would be bandied shout
between the preliminary question and the main question,
and he thought it most expedient that the house should
keep to the issue raised by the government (Hear, hear.)
He bad to complus that the noble lord bad not only intro--
dossed the preliminary question, but after urging such
arguments as he thought fit in favour of the amendment,
had died into others which were quite beside the quer
4to
was in substance what should be the form of
the smorament. The noble lord's amendment wee
peculiar in its phramology. The first part of it,
the noble lord's own admission, did not bear on
n before the house at all ; and the offered
-a 'mem which seemed to his quite inadequate. The
amendment was this—" That, in the opinion of this house,
information is necessary to enable parliament to
to with advantage for the permanent government of
,tire Now what had that to do with the question
Isteeie ? (Hear, bear.) The noble lord had told
and over again that they were legislating for the
lelC=nt of India, and he wadi that en
siure. If that were the ease, the first
daleleinf the emeadment bad nothing to do with the qui,-
ii" Ave the government were net proposing a permanent
measure, sad why it was inserted he meld not imagine,
sales it was with the view of introducing the popular
topic, that there was aot saltiest information. The long
part of the amendment was equally puseling—" And that at
titillate period of the session it is inexpedient to proceed with
a meson; "—he should ham supposed that the noble lord
was going to say " • measure °flumes's magnitude"—that
they were going to bath mother allusion to a permasiat
measure, but the words were—" toproiteedwith a mea-
sure which, while it disturbs existing arangementa, can-
not be considered as a final settlement." (Hear, hear.)
The "late period of the session" might be a very good rea-
son foe sot going Into a measure of a permanent character,
bat surely the feet that the measure was sot of a perm-
neat character, that it did not aim at settling everything,
was a reason which told them otherwise. (Hear, hear.)
The first part of the resolution, therefore, appeared to him
not to apply to the bill at all ; while the awed part
afforded a reason for doing exactly the contrary of what the
noble lord wanted them to do, (Hear, hear.) But, peering
that ever, be would call the attention of the home to the
stet* of the cam with regard to this measure.
They ail knew that last year parliamentary committees
were moinated by the late menace% to investigate the
subject of Indian government. The noble lord said it was
not the intention of the late government, bad they re-
mained in office, to legislate for India daring the present.
melee, or, at all events. until the committees had made'
their report. Bat, let the house observe that the late go-
segment did sot let the committees separate until they
had obtained from them a quasi report, in which they
shad that. so far as the evidence had extended, their ism-
peados was favourable to the empany ; and looking at
the eiremstmees of the me*, and especially tionsiderieg the
greet cosmiesoe of having a measure passed daring the
rasest sissies, he was of opinion that. had the
t remised is ofloe, they would have pee-
during this Bessie, a bill for the renewal of the
*dim goverment. The noble lord was, he submitted,
sow taking a course in opposition, which he would not
have taken in office. The noble lord said it was quite un-
=sited that a imam of this kind should be brought
so late in the session. This bill was introduced net
the 9th of Julie. He had referred to the books to see at
what period the bills of 1813 and 1833 were introduced ; he
fined *et the bill of 1813 was Let/educed on the 18th of
Ism, seven days later ; and that the bill of 1833 was
introdseed es the 16th of Jane, six dope later.
(Hoer,
_hear.) fio that the present government would
sot rave' by a comparieen with their predecessors, with
regard to the period of proposing the renewal of the char-
ter. (Hear, hear.) In 1813, parliament had not only to
deal with the government of India, but with the monopoly
of the ;sae trade ; while in 1633 it had to settle the com-
plicated 'seethe of the monopoly of the Chia* trade, sad
the WON on which the Last India Company should mem to
be a minunercial company. (Hear; hear.) Notwithstand-
lag this, however, the present government were at least six
or sews days mom virtuous than their. pretheeseme.
(Lseghter,) _ The noble lord had reminded thp hem that
be India Bill of 1784 wee before the how, forright months.
The cineusetaam of the cm were peculiar. The bill re-
sulted. as was well known, in the destmetion of the Fox
and North ministry, and wises Mr. Pitt emeesthd to elks
the subject was again introduced. He thought that so far
as mangy was concerned be had now disposed of thetirs.
den. The noble lord said the Reform Bill and the i
' eleatiesl Titles Bill occupied a great deal of time. That
was very tree, and the reason was perhaps a lamstable
' oae. They knew that the amount of time which was re-
rixd. to pass a bill through parliament depended en tae
of interest which it excited among large mem
of the English people, and the manner M 'bid)
they. pressed members to take part in the IMP
mum If he were required to prove how lithe
interest comparatively this subject excited, it would be
enough to refer to the comparative thinness of the house
during the delivery of the noble lord's own address. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord said there was ignorance and there
was indecision io England upon this subject. That there
was a considerable amount of ignorance he (Mr. Lowe) ad-
mitted ; but it did not appear probable that if they waited
a year or two the ignorance which existed would have bees
removed. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the second point,
the alleged indecision, he must say that those who had
direzted their attention to the subject were far from appear-
ing undecided. (Hear, hear) Whatever might be
the difficulties, ant he admitted that they were
many and various, of dealing with Indian affairs, the
question was one upon which men who entered into the
subject at all took up and pronounced the most decided
opinions. The noble lord said the house ought to have the
opinions of more of the civil *errant' from India. Why,
th .y had banqueted on such opinions to satiety, (Laughter)
They had had collectors, judges, civil officers of all kinds,
who could give them any information. On this point he
must remark that though gentlemen who had resided in
India in an official capacity gave most admirable and accu-
rate information with regard to a particular district, they
did not appear to have troubled themselves much about the

rest of India. (Hear, bear.) Though it might be a para.
don, he believed it to be true that for a general knowledif..
of India as a v hole—not of particular parts—they should
look rather to England than to India, rather to those who
bad been placed at the head of Indian affairs than to those
rho had been employed in administering the affairs of par-
ticular districts. (Hear, bear.) The noble lord had re-
marked that the East India Company was on its trial ; that
the committees had not yet reported, and that the question
ought not to be decided till they had. He omitted to state
that the jury had interposed with a verdict of acquittal.
It was hardly to be expected that, after (wing that, they
would turn round and declare that they were wren,, sail
that they now wished to convict the accused. The noble lord
, then went into a long argument with regard to the present
state of India, and declared that he did not see any danger
of agitation or insurrection. lie (Mr. Lowe) did not per-
ceive any symptoms of insurrection ; but he thought it ape-
aially desirable that at the present time the government of
India should be u strong and as much respected by the
population as potsible. Ile would state very brit fly his
reasons for holding that opinion. He saw the Eastern
world, from one end of it to the other, in a state of commo-
tion, there being such a movement all over Asia as had not
been witnessed for centuries. If they looked to the western
part of Asia, they would find a quarrel between Turkey
and Russia Going • little further south, they found all
Arabia pervaded by • fanatical spirit—Arabia, which hail
once conquered Asia, and was on the point of conquering
Europe. if they went to the north they found Bokhara in
imireement. The empire of China, after bring asleep for
WI years, was in a state of insurrection and rebellion ; the
result of which, in relation to Asiatic minds and to coter-
minous countries no one could predict ; and then, coming
southward, they found themselves engaged in • serious and
apparently interminable war with the Burmese. (Ironical
cheers.) He confessed he should admire the patriotism of
hen, gentlemen more if they had not cheered in that man-
se/. (Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he thought
it was the bounden duty of parliament to end to
make the Indian government respected. (Hear, hear.)
The only reason which the noble lord assigned for a delay
of two or three years was that parliament had reason to
doubt whether the present government of India was a good
one. He (Mr. Lowe) would put it te the house whether
a state of suspense was likely to be favourable either to the
prestige of English power in India or to the obedience and
subordination of the civil servants—(hear, hear)—
whether, on the contrary, it was not likely
to weaken their hold on India at a moment
when it ought to be held with the firmest hand
sad exposing them to dangers of which no man could fore-
see the result. The noble lord might perhaps retort, that
the gerverument had exposed themselves to that objection
by esonecncing the bill with the words, " Until parliament
shell make further provision in that behalf'. Let the
house observe the distinction between the two cases. By
putting off the matter for two or three years they would be
in reality prolonging the period of trial, inviting every one
who had anything to say against the form of govern-
ment to come forward, and at the same time
expressing themselves a grave conviction that the
system was not a good one. (Hear, hear.) If the
form of government were not good, let it be changed ; but
to destroy • prestige which had commenced with the time
of Lord Clive, would be extremely reprehensible. On the
other hand, what the government said was this—" We
have made the best provision that our information and in-
telligence will enable us to do for the government of Jodie,
but we are not wedded to what we have done, and we are
willing to listen to any complaints which may be made."
In fact, they did not, like their predecessors, propose to tie
up their hands for 20 years, they did not intend to let any
humour swell till it was full grown before at'empting to
apply a remedy. (Hear.) He could not help remarking,
that when the noble lord came to deal with the bill itself,
he did not appear to entertain any very strong objections to
it. (Ministerial cheers.) He mentioned, indeed, one or
two provisions as objectionable ; hut to the general scope of
the bill he did not appear to be opposed. The noble lord
was in favour of the principle of double hear,
hear)—though he did not state what he meant by it. What
ke (Hr. Lowe) meant by double government was this, that
whereas one body had the costrol and responsibility, the
government was circled on in the name of anotherhody.
The noble lord also made some minor objections,
which did not go to the principle of the bill.
These were mitten for consideration when they got the
bill. Then as to the patronage, the noble lord should eon-
dder that much more of the patronage was taken away
than he had given credit for. The admiaaion to Addiscombe
was to be open to public competition, which would take
sway front the company about 90 appointments in the year,
and therefore the noble lord's calculation as to patronage
was hardly correct. The noble lord said, "Ifit be right to
take away part of the patronage, why not take all?' But,
this was a great experiment, new to this country—that of
opening public appointments to competition; and, seeing
that the principle it was to supersede had in practise
worked well, it would not be right to establish the new one
completely, until there had been taken some preliminary test
of its efficacy. That rule was especially true as regarded the
military service. In the civil service the principle
la competition could not go wrong, but they often found
that the best soldiers were men who had not particularly
distinguished themselves at examinations in early life.
(Hear, hear.) As regarded the civilians, the noble lord's
suggestion with regard to re children of officers would pro-
bably be adopted. With regard to the civil service gene-
rally, the course of the government was beyond all contro-
versy right. The civil suttee of India was different from
all others. In other places if you got an incompeteat civil
servant, soother might assist him in his duty, but in India
thin wee an enormous amount of individual responsibility
Ilintert IPS every servant of the Company. A collector
seedto any district might not only collect the reve-
al" but also inflict misery on thouunds of hems
Wise The most sacred duty of government, therefore, Wee
wee eacesfy es get penmen of average ability In 4ine
diemilens. lot to get the very best men that 111111 U
bud, and so to sacrifice the interests of the eeestry te
Mends, relatives, or political connexions. (Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. Lowe) had heard is another place, a noble lord
with infinite eloquence and Ignorance plead the sum fe
Ignorance. The noble lead had stigmatised the
public examinations as the greatest absurdity that be
devised, and said that a deeply learned man was of all others
the moat unfit for the business of the world. That was en-
wady not the ezperienie of that house, where they
lamed that the men who were the leaders of party,
sad who influenced ales destiny of nations, were I
ace ism who had most distinguished themselves
at the ealversities. (Hear, hear.) It wee all very well to
talk of the system of cramming. He knew something of
that system. (A laugh.) Then was no doubt a great deal
lio sash ertimmist at mu universities, but the reason was
OM as semaisatime hi into the hands of the same elan
▪ and seseetiems the same men who bad prepared
an peptic There was si sort of oral tradition banded dowa
',bleb was not to be bind is the books, and which formed
the staple of moat summations. A number of curious
points ware handed down, in the same way that problems
were called by the mime of the man in Cambridge who
had invented them, a sort of discipliner moans, in-
deed, he was happy to think that may dodges
of that kind of his— own investimc were still
cherished at Cambridge with his name -hafted. (Loud
=it) That was a very bad system, but It used net
y Near, since the examinatisa wadi is natal
4s by ematetent men, sad sot on any mom gejoimilla
system. (Hear, hear.) Bat the let Sam
sensate was important foe another nese& sea
men dielsemkte in the evidence than the teellmesy
Mae ails" el friendly feeling between the Euratom"
end oilves. New what he was going to my might impair
Mita to the home, bat he believed that there was a
eimamiea between the Intellectual and morarfacalties
ke the hums mirsd. sad that ignorant* and stupidity were
Aft the arms of Olivetti's% of inferiors. The ignorant
nun WWI den apes the person of another ram ; but the
adam of Welled leaked upon him ae an object of cariosity
ef empathy a Wag to be studied and appreciated ;
and, is lie point of view, the advantage of intellectual
tultivatioa was, is his epilog, important. He had now
gene through as much of the noble lord's speech as ap-
Clse him bear on the bill, bat had avoided that
to
patios which, in his opinion, had nothing to do
with it. He knew, however, enough of mercantile affairs
to tell the sable lewd that freights to Madras were much
Searajoll. than is.

Lad STANLEY said he had spoken of a partioular ease,
end not of the general rule. He had mentioned a particu-
lar cargo having gone out at that rate.
Dlr. LOWE said, returning to the bill, that Its thought
he bad shown there was no case for delay, and without
sayieg the bill was good or bgd, he eontended that the sub-
set one the house ought to entertain, and which might
very well disposed of in the present swims. They
should look at the question as it was likely to affect the
people of India. Even if the ministerial bill were not now
ught forward, the people in India would act on the pre-
' samptien that its peovielons would be carried out, and the
efest on the company would be most injurious, leaving
then W it were half condemned, and restrained
frees doing many useful thinp which they
would be otherwise inclined to do. There were
many impotent Worms, such as the regulation [of
furlough and the changes in the judicial system which the
company might enter upon at once if they were not hueg
up and paralysed by the delay of legislation. Education
also would be parelymd, and Haileybury would not know
what was to be its future system of management. Whether
the government was to be double or single, it was time the
question were decided ; and therefore he trusted the house
would not accede to the amendment of the noble lord.

Mr. PHINN opposed the bill, because it was not the
"large, liberal, and substantial measure that the country
expected, and had a right to expect. He considered that
the responsibility of the government of India should rest
with the crown, instead of being entrusted to irresponsible
bodies, which resolved the authority into that of a mere
plutocracy. In the course of a general review of the ar-
roseate urged in favour of the bill, he especially addressed
himself to those relating to the increased trade of the
country, as indicative of its prosperity ; and he maintained
that, if the increased number of markets, sad the relaxa-
tion of the restrictions upon the trade with China, be taken
into consideration, the result would not prove any im-
provement in the condition of the native population. He
condemned the bill generally, as failing to provide fur those
important reforms which he believed to be necessary, and
which he took some time in describing to the house.
Sir It. H. INOLIS made vatious objections to the bill;
that it proposed to legislate for an indefinite period ; that it
destroyed much of the substance of the presentsystem with-
out providing an adequate substitute; and that it altered
the constitution of the government. At the same time he
believed that delay was not necessary, and might be dan-
gerous ; and on that ground he opposed the amendment.
lie hoped that the bill would be proceeded with at once,
with such alterations as the wisdom of parliament might
suggest. All that the house had to do was to provide for
India a good form of government, and leave it for the Ems-

entice at home and in India to work out and fill up the
details.
Mr. HENRY BAILLIE considered that it was desirable
to settle the question this sesrion, but that it was still
more desirable that the settlement should be permanent,
whenever it task place. Under all circumstances, he did
not consider the demand for delay unreasonable. Ile did
not believe that the proposed reconstruction of the home go-
vernment would would secure the services of the hest men.
Ile was fu,r improving the constituency ; and rather than
continue the power of election in the present hands, he
; would place the poser of nominating the directors in the
hands of the crown. With regard to patronage. he con-
, sider‘.l it to be stn -tug those pri.ilege: which induced die-
' tingnislud men, who would certainly not be tempted by the
salaries, to take eflire.
Mr. II ERRIES, in a speech of great length, expressed
himself in favour of immediate legislation; and though he
made many serious objections to the bill, yet he preferred
lit to the amendment.
On the motion of Mr. ID:sex the debate was adjourned
till to-morrow (this day).
The report on the Customs Acts was brought up and
received.
EXCISE DUTIES ON SPIRITS BILL.
On the further consideration of this bill on the third
reading, after certain additional clauses had been brought
up and agreed to,
Mr. BOWYER moved a clause, the object of which was
to provide that an allowance should be made for actual
wastage while spirits were in bond, such allowance in no
case to exceed 3 per cent., contending that it was unjust to
charge duty for spirits which had evaporated in the ware-
house.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
details to which this clause hr.d reference had been carefully
considered by the Board of Inland Revenue, in conjunction
with the representatives of the Irish spirit distillers, and as
the scale of allowance was satisfactory to the distillers, he
thought it ought to be so to the house.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN contended that there would be no dif-
ficulty in ascertaining the actual waste, and suggested that
Irish and Scotch whisky should be admitted into the naval
contracts. _ . .

After some further discussion, the claws was negatived.
The bill was then read a third time. On the question that
it do pass,

Mr. CONOLLY entered his protest against the prin-
ciple of the bill, and contended that its effect would be to
encourage illicit distillation, and to demoralise the peasan-
try of the north-western districts of Ireland.
Mr. MACARTNEY asked whether it was intended to
make use of the constabulary in the collection of the re-
venue ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
government had not altered their intentions on this point,
but would take care that the other important duthoi of the
constabulary were not interfered with. There was no
intention of employing them in still-hunting, which was
properly within the province of the cache officer.
Mr. MTANN would rather see the police directly and
openly ergeged in still.hunting than employed privately to
win others. He hoped government would not destroy that
admirable body of police, which they certainly would, if
they employed them in the manner proposed.
Lord C. HAMILTON said if the police were charged
with additional duty there must be an increase in the num-
ber of police. Would the right hon. gentleman introduce
a clause which would secure the country from the expense
of the additional police who would be so required. (Loud
cries of "Divide.")
The house then divided— _

----A__ ___ _..___
yes
Noes 4l-80
The lill was therefore passed.