The Express.
London, England, 1853-07-20 00:00:00

TIME ALLOWED AT DIVISIONS.

On the ii;ertiimtiatheoid;isoftie day be reed,
Mr. H. BERKELEY drew aunties to the mine
haste which at present attended the calling of division:l7l7
was site impossible that a man with sound wind sad limb
emit no from the library to the Mum under two minutes
without a peewits, Treerary bislang. (A laugh.) Lest
sighs tor homes, the bell nag for a anise and in We
BMA • mute ea s half be, together with ;meal ether
menben, mode the beet of their way to the door, bat
it wee too late. They ran a seven nee, bat they
wen choked by the pees sad beet of by the °entre
(a biagb)--ead whys at last they teethed the dolt
was meseneeniesely clemd against them. Laug.)
Now them wet soneeittee siting up-metra epos( um veil
ineetims, wed be begged tonnes; to them that In minutes
time wee sot Ose own St gapes bonnie calks' the division
wed oneleig ra Men. (Oh, eh) Well, then, my three
sgeollse. but egg Mt the hews, Ix the time, so that mem-
ben might Ws es opportuaity of regulating their pace
without priniwene trailing he It. (A laugh,)
The SPEAK= said tie time which generally elapsed
ores regabiled worp_meek by the member of strangers he the
hone t of melee if *see were Emmy, the delay was kalifs
in gift, them Mk thus if gime were few, -bat the Wee-
sew weer reseed the deers so_ bog as then wee a member
In sight tail'disemn WIOW to the Mese, sad the
doors wen ass ebbed IMO all wen sibeigoi, who meld be
sees le I. opgrambali bit kh• Wroth Meer, hear.)
The siablest— this napped, sail the hems poised to the
seders of the day he 12 o'ideek.
ANNUITY TAIABCOTLAND) BILL.
TM LORD ADVOCATE, ia meths die leased
of this bill, said that it awe Minded Is Me estieLoatudilli
sg lusellers bsu q= wwWellaNstaltheaset he
it=
wesesselee oneloietratime. Tbe tax wee a ritte
imposed in WIN pesperty Is the sty et inbuilt for the
sampan ens deep. sod wee impend is its present nape
in till. It enewated to per men ow the reseal. TM
wank* of d sepperted by it hod Witty decreased,
mid the esOmii" bid tegiod geese dbmiesten , in nose-
quote of the anion whim bed tak plan in
the dwelt of lintlemi—a dbiewiewe which berneed so
meek that in 11142 M woe .Madly head necessary
to eall oat the military Ss Sidali• Ssihis. ISM rate. Is
1148, the noble lord the member he Linen seat Mr. J. I.
Wen. to Edinburgh, to Mathias limpidos, end that gen-
tleman made a report, which with the of the select
committee that sat subsequently, basis of the
prompt measure. As he had stasis the tea was on of
8 Par cent. on bolo* property, but within the
menet royalty. The whole of the of Justice, ie.
eluding fudges, advocates, mildises. des.. were exempt, al-
though they, as might be Wined, included the most
affineat portion of Wppilmils. Eighteen minden
were paid by the tax ; and lailmalle of settlement proposed
was to reduce that number NglMaa, to abolish the ex-
emptions, and to abolish the ammdty tax altogether. In its
steed It was proposed to levy a ninkipal tax of 3 per
mat. out of which the allergy wen to be paid
throe& the medium of the Consolidated Fund. Comb

revenues of the deanery of the Chapel Royal would ulti-
mately be applied in aid of the same purpose. These, on
• moderate calculation, were expected to amount to 1,6001.
per annum, and with the municipal tax before mentioned,
it was expected would produce sufficient (Of the payment
of the stipends. Urtil these deaneries fell in an additional
tax of one per cent. would be levied on the municipality.
The salaries of the ministers were at present about 6001.,
subject to the expense of collection, and it was proposed to
fix them for the future at 6.501., and to reduce the number
from 18 to 15. The three eniaistries to be reduced would
be those entrusted with collegiate charges, which ex-
perience had proved, both in Scotland and Eng-
land, to be attended with very little real duty. It was
objected against this bill that its operation would require
the intervention of the consolidated fund. (Hear, hear.)
But he did not think there would be any charge on that
fund; indeed he had no objection to introducing in com-
mittee provisions to the effect that nu greater amount than
was paid in should be disbursed on account of the stipends.
With reapp ct to the deaneries, their revenues bad always
been applied to emlesiestical purposes connected with the
church of Scotland, and no city bad • greater claim to
them than Edinburgh, which supported 18 ministers, while
Glasgow maintained only 10. These were the principal
provisions of the bill which he proposed as • means of
allaying agitation, and be was preparel in committee to
attend to any reasonable suggestion.
Mr. J. B. SMITH moved as an amendment that the bill
be reed • second time that day three months. (Hear,
hear.) Having been a member of the committee that
sat is. 18.51, be thought he could supply some
partienims about the tax which had been omitted by
the hon. and learned gentleman. The parliamentary bo-
rough of Edinburgh contained about 160,000 persons, and
the ancient and extended royalties, the only part of the city
liable to the tax, about 66.000. In these two districts there
were fifteen congregations and eighteen ministers. Up to
1810 this tax was collected by the corporation, and the
ministen paid a fixed salary, the balance being applied to '
municipal purple**, and the amount of surplus for
twenty years up to 1809 had been 37,1201. About that time
an important change took place, which war the origin of all
subsequent disputes. Au act of parliament was obtained
extending the area of taxation, into which by a
pious f fraud the minister got • clause smuggled,
providing that tax might be levied for the payment of
seventeen stipends or as many more as might
be deemed necessary, whereas, under the previous law, the
amber was limited to six. (Hear, hear.) Under that act ,
tax was now levied fur the payment of 18 stipends. (Hear,
bear.) No sooner bad the act passed than the ministers
isereeeed their demands, and having previously received
3301. yearly, immediately claimed 7601. each. (Hear,
hear.) The *corporation resisted and • law suit was the
consequence, but ultimately the clergy were victorious, and
obtained manses, wine duties, seat rents and church lands.
The corporation agreed to pay 6201. to each minister in lieu
until 1820, hot the moment that time bad elapsed the CA.
leetion was renewed, and there had been nothing but dia-
eatisfaction and resistance ever since. This went on until
1813 when it became absolutely impossible to col-
lect mss tax, and in one ease a magistrate was
Imprisoned for refusing to pay. To show its in-
justice be might mention that in 1844, out of 10,667
peness en whom the tax was levied, 8,331 did not attend
the churches.
_Meer, hear.)_ The old town of Edinburgh
contained, is 1688, within 300 of its present population;
but where.' at the former period they were all of one faith,
they wen at present composed of various denominations,
leaving but 5,118 who either belonged to the church, or
professed no particular creed. It appeared, however, that
although the churches of the stipendiaries were empty,
there was no spiritual destitution, as there were 26 plums
of worship of the established church, and 74 of other de-
nominations, all well attended. During this time the
seat rents were received by the corporation ; but
they were inesillcient to cover the expenses, in-
volving in nine years • lose of 8191. During the same
period the corporation was called upon to pay the clergy
60,0001. (Hear, hear.) They were also bound to provide
an immense number of church seats, but of these only 6,55
were actually let. Notwithstanding all these vacancies, it
appeared that a new church wee to be built at an expense of
10,1461., to replace Trinity church which had been pulled
down for the railway. For this church it appeared there
was a confregatlon of 19, and for another, called the Grey-
friars, which was also to be rebuilt, the congregation num-
bered 35. (Hear.) Having detailed some particulars re-
specting the substitution of an inferior place of worship for
• church built by Lady Glenorchy, the hon. member pro-
ceeded to contend that the deaneries were no more eoclesi-
silica property than Woburn, having been taken by the
state on the abolition of episcopacy, and said that the best
remedy for the present stets of things would be to repeal
the act of 1803, which had been obtained by fraud,
and to reduce the ministers to their original number of six,
which in his opinion would be quite enough for the duty.
Thera was a precedent for this in the reduction of the Irish
bishoprics. The hon. member concluded by moving his
amendment.
Mr. HADFIELD wended the amendment.

Mr. MACAULAY should have thought from the speech
of the bon. member who moved the amendment that he
was arguing in favour of the second reading of the bill, and
one of the difficulties which he (Mr. Macaulay) experienced,
was that the hoe. gentleman had urged many of the topics
which he had intended to advance In support of that mo-
tion, and which certainly tended to that conclusien. (Hear.)
The hon. gentleman made out he thought even more
strongly than the Lord Advocate that the city of Edin-
burgh was suffering under a great grievance, and that being
so it was the duty of the house to adopt such a measure as
would afford the beet practicable remedy. (Hear, hear.)
It was not desirable, the existence of the grievance being
proved, that they should propose and insist upon some re-
medy, which theoretically they might think preferable to
this mews if there were no chance of carrying it into
effect. That reposition was always practically the best which
there was a prospect of their being able to carry. The
hon. gentleman (Kr. J. B. Smith) had referred to his (Mr.
Macaulay'e) conduct in 1833 in voting in favour of the
reduction of the Irish bishops. He acted then on the same
principle upon which be was pprenppasred to act to-day. He
thought that the eresordnleabiMbmont of the Established
Church in Ireland wee tee Liege, and Mr. O'Connell
thought so too, for he blamed the government ter not pro-
pose( s greater redaction than they did. But was that
because Mr. O'Connell wished to maintain the
number of bishops and archbishops proposed by
the goverment masers ? Not at all. But
because be felt that if he insisted upon a greater reduction
than was offered he would probably get am.. (Hear,
hear.) It was then upon the principle upset which he
acted in HOS, sad upon which Mr. O'Connell acted in
1833, that he was prepared to vote in hewer this hill, and
having Aeneas, be should without the knot bsellathm.end
with the meet satire confidence, present irmeelf bears
his esestikente is Edinburgh. As he had mid, there was
a grievenee, sad it wee a great see. The in=
sass of the pork of Edinburgh in referees**.
eel mettles comested in this. In the first plass they Ws
elms* establishment which was diereparelened to the
wants of the people. If they considered the mot of the so
tabliahed sherds in the city of Edinburgh, with the met el
the church establishment in the other great towns of Scot-
land, they would god an enormous disproportion in refer-
ence to the amount of the population. • But after all the
psenniary grievance was net the worst in the case. Edin-
burgh was one of the few places in Scotland where the
burden of the church establishment was not in part at least
borne from those revenues which had formerly belonged to
the Roman catholic church. In the reign of Charles I. a
grant of certain lands was given for that purpose, but it was
taken away at a later period in the reign of Charles 11.,
and the leads reverted back to the crown ; and this annuity
tan spot the houses of Edinburgh had became neesseary
in sonsequesee of the resumption by the crown of that part
of the church leads which formerly were assigned to that
city. Now, the complaint of the people of lidinbergli was
—trot, that the state had burdened her with a church sets-
blishment disproportionately large as compared with her
population ; secondly, that the state, in laying on this
burden, had exempted those who were the best able
to bear it • and thirdly, that it had taken away those ancient
aura leads which ought to have gone to maintain the
chard'. The Bret remedy proposed by the bill was to dimi-
nish the chugs—to dimitkb prospectively the number of
the clergy—not interlocks with any vested rights, for he
hoped he should never sae parliament doing that. (Hear,
hear) It filed the Alpo& of the clergy at 5.50 i., and re-
the number prostestively from 18 to 15. And with
lewd to this redeaden the argueats for it were, he
thonskt, irresistible. The ascend remedy was to strike
awq altogether the odious privilege of the College of .1 as-
kWh (Chests.) Asa as ara wee that in return, or as
fir those Ohara Inds, which were arbi-
=rillakietir away without eosapstsation,either the whole
W saeas pert of the rinses, of Deaaekes of the Chapel
Royal Amid Walton's'. Ammeorellooded upon something
Ike this *Wok had bum geoposed for this country by
the 'Y lokobened bp a minefwd (Blandford) which
EaAsk the seesaws of meek deaneries, probe's-
red alasseras should be made applicable to the in-
eilledeney of the eirmash, by providing additional
misegymeo la districts at present misapplied with sufficient
mem Genesis", ketrosties. But the reason for so a_ppro-
Crthe Metallelea Of ea deaneries was stronger in Edin-
tban In able gesurry. In England the deans had
sumethiag to do in carrying oa the service of the cathedral,
blithe deans of the Chapel Royal in Scotland did also-
biddy se duty whatever. It was, be believed, recorded of
wee these doses, that he should say grace when George IV.
dhoti Mllelyrood—(bear and laughter)--and be believed
it woman' for one of them to attend at Holyroed when
tie *Wee of peers took place, and these were the only
duties poellormol by the deans of the Chapel Royal within
eserriep elms. (Haar, and; laughter.) Was it um
messalidrie lbw to Like the whole or a part of the revenues
of Wee Mesa, moor. ern 1,800/. ayes*, to relieve from this
cruel burden the poor inhabitants of the capital city ?
whisk the Sevoreiga was not likely again to honour with
her residers? (Hear, hear.) Ile must say that the
amemismot proposed by his hoe. friead astonished him,
berme ewey o e elf the principles upon which the bill was
founded wee in the report, which, se a member of the cola-
mittes ea the subject, his hon. fired recommended the
i of. The three remedies it was proposed to apply
tlettba use grievance, viz., the reduction in the number of
Malden, the abolition of the privilege of the College of
Justice, and the application of the whole, or a great part of
' the revenues of the deaneries of the Chapel Royal, were all
included in that report. (Mr. Smith intimated dissent.)
As to the first, the reduction in the number of the ministers,
the hon. member would not deny that that was one of the
remedies proposed in the report. (Mr. J. B. Smith, " No,
I so.") True, die boa. member did not propose that the
number should be reduced to precisely the same ex-
teat as was proposed by this bill, but surely the honourable
member had been long enough a member of the bouts
to know that it being admitted that the number should be
reduced, whether it was by three or six, was not a matter of
principle. (Hear, hear.) The abolition of the privilege of

the College of Justice was also recommended, and it was
equally certain that in that report the hos. gentleman did
propose that a portion of the revenues fifths deaneries lel
the Chapel Royal should be appropriated to the saints-
same of the ministers. So that to every one ot the three
principles involved in the bill the hon. gentleman had dis-
tinctly given his sanction. (Hear, hear.) He had in his
hand the report as proposed by the hon. gentleman ; not
the one that was ultimately adopted by the committee, but
the one drawn up by him and rejected, in which it was
stated, " The committee are of *pinion that it would be de.
sirable to abolish the annuity tax, and as soon as funds are
available by the decease of the present duos of the Chapel
Royal, there should be appropriated out of the revenues of
the deaneries a sum equal to the stipends of the two exist-
ing ministers, and on the decease of either there shall be
only one minister." He here recognised the princip!e that
a part of the funds of the deaneries might be ap-
plied to relieve the people of Edinburgh from the
annuity tax, as he bad recognised all the other
remedies the bill proposed. He (Mr. Macaula)) did not
regard the clauses having reference to the consolidated fund
es any necessary part of the bill. They would be so put
that in no case whatever ought one farthing to pus out of
the consolidated fund to the minister, and whatever secu-
rity might be suggested to make that certain, they would
be ready to assent to in committee, and unless such security
was found as should be sufficient to satisfy the moittecrupu-
loss, they would be perfectly willing that the whole of that
part of the machinery of the bill should be struck out.
(Hear, hear.) The principle of this bill had been affirmed'
by three successive governments—the government before
the last—the last government—which did not certainly pro-
pose to reduce the number of ministers, but did propose
prospectively to reduce the amount of their stipends ; and
now the present government the principle in the bill before
the house. In addition to this a committee of the House
of Commons had sat and recommended a bill founded upon
the three principles on which the messure proceeded, an
after all this the honourable gentleman came for-
ward after recognising those three principles and
moved that the second reading should be put
off to that day three months. When everybody was
agreed as to the three remedies to be applied, and when the
only difference was as to matters of detail, whether 300
should be taken from one source and 400 from another, or
400 from the one and 300 from the other, to attempt to
throw out the bill altogether was unreasonable. For the
sake of the peace of Scotland, and for the sake of the In-
terests of the established church in that country, he im-
plored the house net to reject the measure. Let the house
consider what must be the position of the church when the
clergy found It necessary to call out the soldiers to get in
their wages. The unpopularity of the clergy was a very
different thing from the unpopularity of an army or of •
police. An army or a police, though it might be hated b
the people, eould yet perform its functions; but a church
that was hated was worse than useless. (Hear, hear.) A
church to be useful must be respected,_ and if it inspired
feelings opposite to respect, it had better not exist. It was
for these reasons that he fervently implored the house not
to support the keeping up of an institution by means which
could only cause it to be hated. (Hear.)
Mr. J. B. SMITH, in explanation, denied that he had
proposed in his report, that the revenues of the deaneries of
the chapel royal should go to the clergy of Edinburgh, but
to the clergy of the Canongate.
Colonel BLAIR opposed the bill, which he contended
was an encroachment on the rights of the church of Scot-