The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-23 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 23, 1847.

AirLAY tnov t WAn Luta. (larsatre).—)lt. LONO•Cillz111, CO
Tentley, the leth W MOW kr ken to larhie la a bill oa this
"bght (immure) lint.—Mr. Laroentsros tataorrow (this Wu),
to more tor le.ive to bring In a bill alatrouing the • -t or Let Keaton.
%normal. SicirooLvnormin (-Mt. noto).—mr. rot m,rts, to.
mot row (this day), to wore for • rears of the =tether of parochial
schoolmasters La Scotland who hula the aloe of maroon clerk, said the
lIIDOWIt of their emoluments.

NEW MEMBER.
Mr. PSZVECT took the oaths and his se►t as member
for Lena.

NEW WRIT.
A new writ was ordered for the eastern division of Somer.
setshire, in the room of Col. Gore Langton. deceased.
BEGISTERI,NG BIRTHS, Kr. ISCOTLAND) BILL.
MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Mr. FORBES inquired whether there was any objection
cm the part of the Lord Advocate to postpone these bills un-
til such time so the counties would have an opportunity of
considering and esprening on opinion upon them ?
Mr. F. MAULE said he would tin them for an early day
aftcr Easter, not being prepared to say whether the Lori
Advocate wished to bring them on before the 110th April
But he thought there would be me objection to postpone
them until set r the annual meetings of the counties.
Mr. HUME hoped the government would consent to send
these bills to a committee up stairs. Ile had given notice of
a motion to that effect, in compliance with a very strong
desire on the subject.
Mr. F. MAULE believed that the Lord Advocate meant to
resist that ;viaposition.
GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
Mr. C. BERKELEY ►sked whether it was the intention
of the government to persevere in the system of education
which was founded on the minute of council ; and, U se.
when the .iiscellaneous estimates would be brought on?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was the intention of the
government to persevere in the plans which were laid down
us that minute. (Cheers.) The miscellaneous estimates
would be brought forward utter Easter, and the education
estimate on Monday, the 19th of April.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENTS.
Mr. BORTHWICK inquired if the noble lord intended
to bring forward the proposed amendments in the poor•law
shortly wile• Easter ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that such at present was tbe in-
tention of government ; but that it ►omewhat depended on
the then state of public business.
CUSTOMS• DUTIES BILL.—POOR RELIEF

(IRELAND) BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL (in reply to a gentian from Mr.
Forbes) said he would fix Friday for the Customs' Duties
Bill, trusting he would be allowed to take a morning sitting
for the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill, in the event of its not
being disposed of by that day.
THE MILITIA.
Colonel WOOD asked if it were intended to have a ballot
for militia, or to adopt other means for the defence of the
country?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that there was a measure on the
subject in preparation, but he could not my whether it would
be brought In this seetion or not. If not, some other means
would be considered.
STEAM NAVIGATION TO AUSTRALIA.
Mr. SCOTT inquired whether the government intended to
illy any, and what sum, towards the promoting steam no-
Mien to Australia and New Zealand
r. HAWES quite admitted the importance of the sub-
ject referred to by the hon. member, but all he could state at
present was, that several plans oa the subject were before
the noble lord at the head of the Colonial department, but
the noble lord had not *sprained any predilection for an
one of those plans, although the subject was occupying and
would occnpy his attention. He was not prepared to pro•
pose any immediate steps for the advancement of public
money for this purpose, but he thought that the colonies
should be prepare( to bear part of the expense (as we un-
derstood) in promoting this object.
REDUCTION OF LABOURERS ON THE PUBLIC
WORKS (IRELAND).
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN begged to ink the right hon. gen-
tleman the Secretary for Iroland if the rule for the reduc-
tion of the number of labourers on the public works in Ire-
land by 20 per ceat., was intended to apply to parishes In
which the roup-kitehen arrangements hut not taken effect ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, it had been truly stated that
a rule had boeu laid down fur the reduction of the number
of labourers on the public works by 20 per cent., and which
was to corns into operation on the 2dth of this month, but it
was not to be applied peremptorily to every part of Ireland
independent of any circumstances. It was a general rule,
but a discretion was given to the Irish government, by
which it might not be applied in particular cases.
Mr. HINDLEY begged to suggest that a week's wages
should be given in advance to men who were willing to go
to farm labors.
DUBLIN RATING BILL . .

Mr. OROGAN wished to put a question to the right hon.
gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, on a subject which ex-
cited a good deal of interest in Dublin. He wished to know
if it was the intention of the government to take the Dublin
Rating Bill out of the hands of the corporation, or if they
would themselves support that bill ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE was not prepared at present to
answer that question, as he should see a depot Ilion from the
corporation the day alter to-morrow, and he must defer his
answer until after that.
EXPORT OF CORN FROM RUSSIA.

Lord J. RUSSELL—A question was asked the other
night as to whether there was any truth in the report that
the Emperor of Russia had prohibited the export of corn
from his dominion'. A letter has lately been received from
Lord Bloomfield, which contains a notice from the Malian
Minister of Finance, stating, in effect, that there was no
foundation for the report ; but that, on the contrary, Russia
was affording every facility for the exportation of corn.
CATALONIA.
Mr. BORTHWICK said, that in consequence of the
absence of the noble lord the Secretary for I.oreign Affairs
he would postpone the question of which ho had Riven
notice, relative to a proclamation issued by General Breton
is Catalonia, until Friday next.
POST-OFFICE.

Mr. MOFFATT rose t I put the question to the right hon.
gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer of which he 1
had given notice, six, whether any steps had been taken 1
to prevent public servants employed in the Yost office being '
also employed in a private speculation, called the Post-office
London Directory. Last session, grave charges had been
made spinet certain officers of the root-office for employing i
the public servants of the Poet-office in collecting informs- 1
tion for a private publication of their own. A faint apology
wan made for them, and an inquiry was to be instituted. 1
The result of that inquiry had not transpired; but it was
understood that the public servants were still employed on
Mr. Kelly's Directory. The facts were before the house in
two reports which contained grave charges against Mr.
Kell-, for it appeared that he had made en inaccurate I
return to the house of the amount of his profits. The PM-
office irectory was a very unsatisfactory publication, and I
was 30 per cent. dearer than others of the same kind.
The CH ANC E LLO R of the EXCHEQUER said this sub-
ject
had been brought under the notice of the Postmaster-
General and the government last autumn. Mr. Kelly had I
made a claim for compensation which, according to the in- I
variable practice, was valid to a certain extent, and It was I
nece.nary to allow him to continue the Past-office Directory I
for a time, an he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was
unwilling to make a charge on the public for compensation I
to him. It had been decided that Mr. Kelly, who bought
this work from his predeccenor, and had spent a good deal
of money. in mazbinery for the printing of the Directory,
and was in partnership with his brother for this purpose, I
should continuo to superintend its publication, receiving I
no compensation, but he was prohibited from employing
the servants of the Post-office: and if any one of them I
accepted employment from him he would do so under the
penalty of disminsal.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE understood from what bad been
stated that Mr. Kelly was no longer to conduct the Poet-
office Directory at the public expense, and that be was to
receive no compensation. He was glad to hear it; for if I
anything, he ought to have made restitution. A return had I
been made to the house stating that Mr. Kelly's profits were I
1,2001. a year, but he (Mr. Duncombe) said they were 12,0001.,
and were made by means of the letter-carriers. He under-
stood that Mr. Rowland Hill had obtained an office in the
Poet-office—that he had a room there, and two or three
clerks. What be (Mr. Duncombe) wished to know was,
what were Mr. Rowland Hill's duties, and what was his
salary ? He seemed to be quite powerless, and was not likely
to be assisted by Mr. Kelly and Mr. Bokenham and a notice
bad been given at the Poet-of ace, that any of the letter-carrier,
who had any suggestion. to make to Mr. Rowland Hill should
lay them before bim through the headset' their department,
and those heads were Mr. Kelly and Mr. Bokenham. The
principal complaints were made with relation to the Pal-
ates Directory, and it was not likely that the men would
make such complaints through Mr. Kelly, but they. ought to
go direct to Mr. Rowland Hill. To rove the ammo with
regard to Mr. Rowland Hill at the Poet-office, and how
Colonel Maberly and Messrs. Kelly and Bekenham felt with
respect to him. when Mr. Hill left the Post-office in 1842. a
notice was given that, as Mr. Hill's office in the Post-office
had ceased, any officer holding any communication with him
directly or indirectly would be dismissed the service. (Hear,
hear.) Hs (Kr. Duncombe) wanted to know what chance
Mr. Rowland Hill could have of obtaining information from
those heads of depertmentn who had given each a notice ? It
wan important that it should be known what were the duties
and salary of Mr. Rowland Hill, and what chance he had of
improving the Post-office service through such channels.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
answer he gave to the hon. member for Dartmouth must
have been understood by his hon. friend. He admitted
that, according to the invariable practice. Mr. Kelly had a
right to compensation to some extent. AU he wished was
that it should be clearly understood that, at present, Mr:
Kelly was to be permitted to carry on the Poet-office Direc-
tory. on his own account, but he was to be debarred from
haring the services of any one in the I'o4n:dike. If, how-
ever, the Directory wits forcibly taken away from him, he
would be entitled to compensation. With regard to Mr.
Rowland Hill, it would have been more convenient if his
hon. friend had given him notice of the question he had put,
because be had made statements relative to what had been
done in 1842, and spoken of notices which were given in
the Post-office at the present tine, which were no doubt
true, but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had had no
opportunity of ascertaining whether they were so or not.
It was notorious that the business of the Post-office had in-
ertias& to an enormous extent, and, from a return of the
number of letters parsing through the office in the find week
in Fibrll3l7, which had been made two days ago, it
appeared that, in the lad five years, the num-
ber had doubled, being six millidns, instead of
three. Tobiibeinie so, it was desirable that there should
be addle residence, and the government were of
opinion ties no one was more qualified for that duty than
Mr. Rowland Hill: early batiks autumn, at the suggestion of
the *Ode lord the Postmaster-general, be had been appointed
his secretary, not to the Pest-office penally, it being a se •
pirate department, at a salary of IN% a year.

Mr. BUNCOMBE —What is the salary of the clerks?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was unable
to say. If he had had notice of the question he would have
obtained the information required by his hon. friend,
and if he liked to move for a return on the subject he should
have it. There were two or three clerks attached to the
department. He had b..eti informed by his noble friend the
Postmaster-general two toys ago that he thought most
highly of the services of Mr. Rowland Hill, and that since he
had held his office he had been the means of further improve-
ments in the Poe office. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PROTHEROE wished to ask a question of the hon.
member for Sheffield, of which he had given hint notice An
inquiry had been instituted with reference to the conduct of
Meotre. Kelly and Bokenham ; he wished to know if the
Postmaster-Gcneral had come to any conclusion on the
subject ?
Mr. PARKER said the Postmaster-General had before
him 32 volumes of evidenci., and he had not yet been able to
master so great a mite of matter; as sari u he had done
so he would state his opinion.
CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS BILL—PRISONS BILL.
Lord MAHON wished to ask the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary for the Home Department when it was the
intention of the government to go on with the Custady of
Offenders and the Prisons Bills ?
Sir 0. GREY said that he should go into committee on
the bills to-night pro Jor.ml, and take the next stage on
Thursday at the early sitting of the house.
ABSEKTEEISM—IRELAND.
Sir A. B. BROOKE, who was very inaudible, was under-
good to make some complaint of the statement made by the
I hon. member fur Limerick the other night relative to the
absenteeism of a noble marquis, whoa, name we were unable
to catch.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN was sorry for the mistake he had
made ; but all he had said war that the noble lord in gnu-
don was occasionally an absentee.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
Mr. BRIO HT begged to ask a question of the right hon.
gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department relative
to a statement which had appeared,—that in the execution
of two men at Morpeth on Wednesday last the executioner
performed his task in so bungling a manner that it added to
the barbarity of capital punishment. He wished to know if
the matter had been brought under the notice of the right
hon. gentleman, and if steps would he taken to prevent such
a thing in future? Ile hod also another question to put to
the right hon. gentleman, which he need not answer now,
as he had not given notice of it. It was, if he had received
any intimation from any of the judges as to the increasing
Indisposition of Jurors to find persons guilty where capital
punishment would ensue ? lie was induced to ask this from
circumstances connected with the trial of three men at York,
for what was called the Barnard Castle murder, bat which
proved robe the Barnard Castle robbery.
Sir 0. GREY had received no information on the subject
of what had occurred at Morpeth, but he would direct an
inquiry to be made. He had received se intimation
from any of the judger as to the indisposition of juries to
find persons guilty in cases where capital punishment would
foUow, but he had received a communisation from the judge
who tried the Barnard Castle case, who had felt it his duty,
from the nature of the evidence, to pass the heaviest sentence
the law allowed.
RAILWAYS BILL.
Lord G. BENTINCK begged to ask if it war the inten-
tion of the government to bring on the Railways Bill before
Easter ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
on Friday the Estimates would be taken, and he thought it
better that the Railways Bill should be postponed till after
Easter.
INFLUX OF IRISH INTO LIVERPOOL AND
NEWPORT.

Sir B. HALL called the attention of the right hon.
gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department to a
letter which he had received relative to the influx of frisk
labourers into Liverpool. It appeared it was calmed by the
fact that when no rents were paid, ejectment' were served
on the tenante. From the 13th of January to the
13th of February, the number of these persons in Liverpool
was above 30,000, while now it animated to 69,000. He
had also a statement from the town of Newport, complaining
that the town was filled with these starving creatures, who
were coming over in ship load'. He found, from a docu-
ment that was now on the table, that in Skibbereen the
landlords were shipping the labourers to England and
Wales. He wished to ark if the attention of the government
hail been directed to this, or whether it was a solitary
instance ?
Sir G. GREY said his attention had been called to the
subject, and, from information he had received, he could
assure the hon. baronet that this was a solitary instance of
the removal of paupers from Ireland.
ACCOMMODATION FOR THE HOUSEOF COM-

system, and when his hon. and gallant friend (Major
yAyard) brought forward hie motion last year on this sub-
ject, he (Mr. Fox Manic) had abetained from giving any
distinct opinion upon it; but he promised his honour.
able and gallant friend (and the noble lord at
the head of the government hod renewed the promise)
that the question should receive careful consideration
during the recess. It hid been so considered, and it
appeared to him (Mr. F. Maule) that, though the system of
enlistment was voluntary in name, yet, by practices which
were resorted to, it had lost all the virtues of a voluntary
system. On looking into this matter, he found that very serious
doubts might be entertained as to whether any person who
entered into the army ever did so for the purpose of making
it • regular profeesinn for life. He found that tome classes
of recruits very readily joined the ranks, not with a view to
the future, but rather with the view of escaping from the
temporary pressure of distress. He found, oleo, that the
ranks of the army were very much accustomed to be re-
cruited by those who were idle and averse to mechanical
labour, and who thought that in the life of • soldier they
should enjoy that idleness and indolence which were con-
genial to their dispositions. Ile found, also, that it was
but too often the ease that the prodigal joined the army as a
refuge from the consequences of his own improvidence, and
it too often occurred that lads who hail got into a scrape had
recourse to enlistmeet to avoid their temporary masters.
With them eaves, voluntary enlistment was at an end, and
as to the remaining classes, the system was voluntary only
in name, but in reality brought about by the artifices and
cajolery of the recruiting minim, and by the party recruited
being at the time in such a state as not to be accountable for
his acts. It was well known that ail kinds of baits were
thrown out to catch the unwary. The beet looking
men —men with the readiest address, and who could
indulge in those bacchanalian orgies which usually pre-
ceded the enlistment of a recruit—were selected for recruiting
parties. The public•house was the common place to which
the unhappy man was taken, and there the bounty-money
was held out to him as a temptation to enlist—a temptation
which proved in the end most delusive. The man became
tempted by a nominally high bounty, which he scarcely
ever received, and the disappointment of not receiving
which tended more than anything else to disgust him with
the service into which he had entered. What was the re-
sult ? Why the man often. in the first moment of disap.
pointment, deserts. In a few days he is probably retaken,
and thus the man who had voluntarily joined, was brought
back handcuffed, and in the custody of a party of soldier*. I
Again, they had often heard of men maiming themselves
in order to unfit themselves for the service. SO much,
then, for what was called voluntary enlistment. When it
was considered that, by enlisting, a man severed all do-
mestic ties, when he bad no hope of regaining the domestic
fireside which in a moment of bitterness he had left, except
by the payment of a high amount of perchase-money, it
behoved the legislature, now that the army was receiving
more attention from the public, well to consider
whether by revising the system of enlistment, it could not
put an end to suck a state of circumstances as those which
be had described. He (Mr. Fax Made) did not pretend to
say that limited enlistment would cure all the evils, but he
was of opinion that it would have the effect of curing many
of them, and that if accompanied by other measures of im-
provement, such as those adopted by the military adminis-
tration of the late government, and those carried on now by
the present government, he believed that many of the eviL
now complained of would be effectually cured. Already
many of the evils had been removed—the punishment of the
lash was now scarcely heard of, and he hoped is use would
every day become less—(hear. hear) —the moral education
and improvement of the soldier was in mune of being
broueltt into operation uspeedfiy u possible in the regiments
of the line, and in garrisons : and these things would
afford lactuoisnents to a higher class of recruits to enter
the service, and were • means of rendering it
seceptable to the classes from which it meat be formed.
(Hear, hear.) What was proposed to be done by this bill
was, in the first place, to alter the period for which a man
should enlist to a teem of ten years in the infantry, and of
twelve years in the cavalry and ordnance. After the expira-
tion of that period it was proposed that the man should has
the option of re enlisting for a second term of eleven years
in the infantry, and of twelve years in the cavalry and
ordnance, thus making a total service of twenty-one years in
the infantry, and of twenty-four years in the cavalry, which
are the present terms of the service required before • man
becomes entitled to his discharge. He (Mr. Fox Maule) also
took powers by this bill by which, if the ten years' infc
and twelve years' cavalry service expired when the .
ment was abroad, the commanding officer should
enabled to detain the man another year, on show-
ing that such detention was necessary for the
public service and if the regiment should be actually
engaged in warfarehe should have power to detain the
soldier three years beyond the period for which he had en•
listed. At the end of the 21 years' or 24 years' service, as the
case might be, it was proposed to give power to the man
himself to remain in the regiment if he so thought fit, but be
must do so with the consent of the commanding officer, and
with an undertaking to give three months' notice of his inten-
tion to quit the service. Now he (Mr. Fox Mimic) might be
asked why he m de a difference between the period of ser-
vice in the infantry and that in the cavalry and ordnance.
The reason was simply this—that in the cavalry and',
ordnance, the training of a man occupied so much longer I
time than in the infantry, and he thought the public were
therefore entitled to have a longer period of service in
the two first branches of the military establishments,
(Hear, hear.) The bill then went on to provide that after
the first period of 10 or 12 years, as the case might be, the
soldier should have the option of retiring, if he pleased, alto-
gether from the service ; but, even if he did take out his
discharge, it was not intended altogether to lose sight of
him, or to throw away the advantages which his
training could confer upon the public. It was proposed, if
he thought fit to do to, he should enrol himself for a deferred
pension—that during the time he should be so enrolled he
should serve for 12 days in each year in the same way as the
pensioners who had been enrolled under the statutes, 6th
and 7th, 9th and 10th of Victoria. The conditions upon
which • deferred pension, the amount of which was fixed
from time to time by royal warrant, could be obtained were
these: If a soldier, after ten years' service, chose
to enrol himself on his discharge, it was proposed to require
from him 22 years' service in the enrolled companies, to en-
title him to a deferred pension. Under this arrangement.
then, what would be the earliest age at which a man could
receive a deferred pension ? He enlists in the infantry at
the age of 18 years—be serves there 10 years, which
brings him to the age of 28 years; and if at 28 years he
enrolled himself as proposed, he must serve for 22 years for
12 days in each year, liable to ether calls, so that at 60 years
of age he would receive a deferred pension, of which he
would be left in the uninterrupted enjoyment during the
remainder of his life. (Hear.) Now this plan, if adopted,
would answer a double object. In the first place it would in-
duce many men to enter the army with the purpose of merely
spending the first period of enlistment in its ranks'.
They would enter under a conviction that their discharge
would take place at a time when they would still be very
young men, fitted to enter into any other kind of business,
and to turn their minds to agricultural, mercantile, or me-
chanical pursuits. If they enrolled *emotive* for deferred
pensions, they would not only carry into society *me habits
of order and regularity which they had learned in their
military career, but would also prove a reserved force of
great importance if at any time this country should be called
upon to defend her shores from foreign aggression. The
local companies of pensioaers had already been established
to the extent of 13,000 men. These had been regularly in-
spected by the general officers of the districts, in which they
had been called out for 12 days' duty in each year, and after
reading the reports of the various general officers last year,
he (Mr. Fox Maule) could take upon himself to say, that for
all purposes of manning sampans or field duty of not too
severe a character, they were as conversant with their duties
as when many of them had carried a firelock at Waterloo ;
and there were some who hadserved previous to that victory.
It struck him that the encouragement of such a force was •

matter which the executive government end the legislature
should look to most &unlovely. (Hear, hear.) He believed
it to be a most satisfactory and certain mode of providing a
force of 20,000 to 25,000 men, living in the meantime
amongst the civil population, but ready to come under arms
in ease any sudden emergency should arise. (Hear, hear.)
The bill contained a few regulations with reference to the en-
rolled pensioners, and this constituted its principal provisions.
There were other matters in reference to the provision to be
made for the soldier which it was not necessary to include in
an act of parliament. He might be asked why he did not
extend the privileges and benefits of this intended measure
to the existing army—why he made the bill prospective
and not retrospective. His first mower was that there was
no occasion for parliament to interfere to do se. If it were
thought right to extend the principle of this bill to the
present army, and thereby to enable every man after serving
ten years to have his discharge, it could be done by the
authority of the Sovereign in the exercise of the royal pm.
rogative on the recommendation and responsibility of the
executive government. He, however, confessed that he was not
prepared, at present at least, to recommend the adoption of that
course. However desirable it might be to make an experiment
of a system of limited enlistment, still common prudence would
require that there should be some experience of its working,
in order to see the extent to which it would recruit the army
before any sanction was given either by the authority of par-
liament or of the crown, to any sudden efflux from the ranks
of the army as they exist at present. (Hear, hear.) His
right hon. friend who had preceded him in the office he held
had given great facilities and encouragement to men of good
conduit, both for obtkining extra pay and their discharge at
earlier periods than formerly was the practice; and as far as
it rested with him (Mr. Fox Knelt), he would take care
that all the conditions of the royal warrants issued by his
right hon. friend in this respect, should be strictly, literally,
and honourably fulfilled to the soldiers new serving in the
ranks of the army. He brought this measure forward under
• conviction that it would make the service more popular,
*stable, and agreeable, to the masses from which
recruits must be obtained than it was at present.
But in an economical point of view, he further
recommended the adoption of this system of limited
enlistment. Be it, the necessity and expanse of large
recruiting parties, scattered over the country, would be got
rid of, and be hoped it would effect the abolition of the ex-
penditure consequent upon the payment of bounty money.
In 1806, Mr. Wyndham declared that he should not con-
sider the army perfect until the whole system of bounties
was abolished, and the profession of arms put on the mane
footing es every other trade or calling, and young men
were induced to embrace It voluntarily, instead of being
bribed into the service by large bostaties. In that opinion
he concurred, but he was not sanguine enough to anticipate
that the abolition of bounty money would take piste the day
alter the bill pained. He believed, however, If advantage
was taken of these times of peace, to improve the moral and
Intellectual position of the soldier, the army would be
broaght to such • condition that its ranks would
readily be supplied without recourse to bounty money.
Them was every ream why a fair trial should be given to
the proposition which be had the honour to submit; there
was every reason to anticipate that the system would week

well. and for the boa it of the army at lerre. He was quite
sure the house woad believe that he would not haveprecosed
source of
danger,bod or thaliteitb:lokuvd
ideii, thatjur,,tihnerenaexy istweday,7asille.
vice, the interests of which the government had so sincerely
at heart. With these feeling-, and anxious that the house
should expecte either its approbation or disapprobation of the
principle of limited enlistment, in order that he might proceed
to embody it in the future mutiny acts, he now placed the
bill before them, and moved that it be read a second time.
Sir H. DOUGLAS said that he had already expressed lib
decided di-approval of the proposed system of limited eight-
meat ; he had had a long experience in active service, in the
colonies and elsewhere; and having well weighed every word i
he had uttered on the former oocuion,and being still of the same
opinion, he regretted that he should be obliged to oppose this
measure. He was not prepared with any amendment, neither
would ho meet the motion fur the second reading of the bill,
with a direct negative; he would leave to the government
the whole of the responsibility which they seemed disposed
to incur—a nsponsibility which he was convinced would
lead to an increased tamer in the military department,
while, he feared, the efficiency of the service would be ins-
paired. On the present occasion, he should confine himself
to a record of his dissent from the proposed measure, and a
statement of the reasons why be disapproved of it. He
deeply lamented the changes that were going on on every
hand. Those laws which he eonsidered the basis of Eng-
land's maritime power had been sapped ; and now they were
tampering with the efficiency of an army more victorious
and renowned than any in the world. He could not concur
with the statement in the preamble of this bill; for he
thought the change most inexpedient, and totally unjustified
by any considerations of policy. The only reason for such a
change would be to supply the army more readily with
reignite ; but of this there was no need, for recruiting went
on well ; the state of the army was mat satisfactory,
its condition was fast improving, and degrading
punishments were felling into disuse. He denied
that this measure would be beneficial, either to the
soldiers, the class from which soldiers were taken, or to the
country at large. The measure would be both expensive
and ill-timed. Had it been brought forward twenty yeen
ago, we might now be in a situation to judge of its working;
but surely this was not the time to venture on such an ex-
periment, as it was admitted to be. Diming the last war,
had limited service been the rule, the war could not possibly
have been conducted with success. If the principle of limi-
tation was good, why was it not carried out to the whole of
the service ? Either there was a consiousness of danger, or
a lurking abjection somewhere. Was the noble lord at the
head of the government, with hts characteristic courage,
prepared to take the responsibility of carrying out this
measure through tho whole of the service ? Ne. Then, why
introduce it at all, if it could not be made general? It was
highly dangerous to establish a distinction between soldiers
already enlisted, and those " cit'sen soldiers' hereafter to be
enlisted, who, at the end of ten years, were to return to the
bosom of their families. All the objections that had been
made to the present system of enlistment were fully obviated
by the mutiny acts. Of Mr. Wyndham's plan, he would
only my that it had been a total failure • it had to be
amended in 1808, by the adoption of unlimited enlistment ;
and during eight years previous to 1829, when both systems
were in operation, 82,000 enlisted under the unlimited sys-
tem, and only 2,000 under the limited system; thus showing
the estimation ia which the two systems were held by the
soldiers themselves. Is bad Isla sad that twinkled ea-
Hutment led to doserties. /Ids be dialed; dmedsa was
more frequently attributable to men lenienny melting
causes. In Canada it had actually bus 6.4 itiag the
five years before 1829, when both hadted sad tiallmited ser-
vice existed, that the number of desertions had bra double,
amongst those who had enlisted for a limited tees, to than
in the other clam. In proof of the fact that the. was an
difficulty in obtaining recruits, be might deb that in the
twelvemonth ending 31st March, 1846, the sink, boll sow
Sion for about 11,000 men, for th4ine and the aroaryi fiat
double that number offered themselves, of whom hull
were actually examined, 6,143 had been sidsasi, sad
11,420 were admitted. In the present twelve assidas, about
24,000 had been enlisted for the line and the cavalry, sad
the proportion of offers and rejections had been pretty nearly
the same. The inspection that took place, though strictly a
medical one, amounted in fact to a very severe moral and
physical inspection ; and men who were the victims of die-
smation or irregular habits, were sure to be rejected. It
was remarkable that, amongst the number he had mew
tioned, not • single question had been raised as to the ea-
liotment being limited or unlimited. No man had gone
away on being told that the service was for an unlimited
period ; and thus it was perfectly clear that the period of
enlistment was wholly immaterial. Under the present sys-
tem, the soldiers were well-trained, and what was more, they
received an education which was of the most essential benefit.
It had been his lot to inspect about one-filth of the whole
of oar infantry; he had freely entered into conversation
with the soldiers, and had, on all occasions, encouraged
them to make known their grievances; but never
beard a complaint against the system of unlimited enlist-
ment. It had been said that under the present system, the
army was chiefly supplied from the lowest classes of society.
It was a fact thit, in the periods he had mentioned, 643 oat
of every 1000 were labourers or servants in husbandry ; sad
he maintained that these were the best class of which the
army could be composed. There were some of higher
classes, such sa small tradesmen or artificers, who had been
unsuccessful in business, and even licentiates in medicine,
professors of divinity, and of law—(laughter);—but he was
bound to state that these classes formed the very worst eel-
diers. It had been alleged that unlimited enlistment wee
unconstitutional ; but a much more unconstitutional thing,
in his opinion, was the principle of making citiaen-soldiers,
which bad, in former lames, been strongly objected to, as
dangerous to the welfare of the state. Neither could it be
defended on the ground of the national safety; for all ad-
mitted that an invasion of this country was next to impos-
sible. Had the system of limited enlistment prenuled in
the late war, he was certain it would have operated most
injuriously. Every commanding officer knew the value of
old soldiers—(hear, hear) ;—and the Duke of Wel-
lington, when in the Peniseula, had expressed
his decided preference for the old regiments. He
might safely assert that the success of that war was attribu-
table to the old soldiers ; and had the system now proposed
been then in operation, success would have been lees cer-
tain. In fact, limited enlistment did then partially prevail.
In the campaign of 1909, the army was very short of money
the service was from four to twenty-six months' pay In
arrear ; the duke urged this repeatedly in his dement's,
and his difficulties were exaggerated by a demand of 800,000
dollars, for renewed enlistment of those British soldiers
whose terms had expired. Was this plan to be adopted as
respected the marines ? If not, it would lead to a most dan-
gerous discrimination. And if they did adopt the plan in
the marines, they would have amongst them raw and
sickly landsmen. He implored the government to think
before they passed • measure of this description. He had
no intention to drive the house to • division on the matter,
but he would eav, that, if he lived long enough to see a war,
and if his apprehensions were then realised, he would hold
the government responsible. Would such a measure as
this lead to the improvement of the colonial troops,
or would it make them higher in character than
they were at present? He apprehended that it
would not lead to such • result. He objected
to this measure, and though he admitted the necessity
of having colonial corps, he thought that it would be
a arose error to leave the defence of the colonies to
colonial powers. Allowing colonial troops into their UMW
at home would tend much snore to cement the interests of
Great Britain and the colonies. In New Zealand the go-
vernment were about to combine this unhappy experiment
with another. He was of opinion that combining the soldier
with the settler would never answer. If they only attended
to the barrack accommodation of the soldier, and to

his moral education and military discipline, they would
have no set of men whose moral character would be
higher. When a soldier retired they should not only
give him a pension but secure him employment in
the various government establishments, such as in the
police, &c. His chief objection to this measure was, that it
was calculated to lead to a directly opposite result to that
which was anticipated by the pvernment. A vast number
of soldiers and non-oommissioned officers would take their

discharge, and instead of weeding the army of the bad,
it would induce the good men to abandon it. With
respect to punishment in the army, he hoped that the
time for its cessation wu at hand. (Hear.) The state et
the military prisons was adverted to the other day, and the
account given of them was most satisfactory. The great
object of this bill was, and the effect he believed would
be, to keep down the rate of pensions.
Capt. LATARD.—The object is:to give better pensions.
Sir H. DOUGLAS said that it would create a great dimi-
nution in the aggregate amount of_pensions. Fewer British
ooldien would receive pensions. They should not meddle
with the machinery of the army ; they should leave the
control in the hands of that eminent man (the Duke of Wel-
lington) who could deal with it best, who formed and
fashioned it to his own purposes, who led it in its operation
from victory to victory, and by whose means it I,berated
Europe from an iron yoke on the plains et Waterloo. It
was said that this was an experiment; that it was so was
soother reason why he objected to it. In his opinion it
would prove unsatisfactory, extremely expensive, and very
prejudicial to the interests of this country.
Col. REID was of opinion that this measure would
not be at all likely to contribute is the welfare and to the
moral character of the army of this country. In his opinion
it would fail to accomplish the object which it had in view.
It would tend to impair the physics] efficiency of the army,
and would promote discontent and jealousy among the
soldiers. A precisely rimilar manure to this was introduced
by Colonel Wyndham, and it was unsuccessful. In 1820, a
measure was brought in, affording facilities of obtaining dis-
charge at any period of service. He thought that that regu-
lation of itself was sufficient to answer all purposes. It had
had the effect of removing from the mind of the soldier all
idea of having lost his liberty. All that was wanted to be
shown was, that • man had been well-conducted,
and at any moment he could obtain hie discharge.
By the proposed measure the infantry would be renewed
every ten, and the cavalry every eight years, and they would
have in fact an army of boys. He dreaded such a state of
things. The services of a great number of the most efficient
mm would be lost, and they were the men whe had seen
some 10 or 12 years' service. If they adopted Mr. Wynd-
ham's system of limited sentare, they should also adopt his
proposed increase of pensions. He would suggest that the
minimum pension of • non-commissioned officer should be
Is. per day, with an increase of 2d. per day for every five
years' service, and that a private, with good conduct matey,
should be able to receive a pension of Is. per day. But he
would, above all, um the improvement of the moral and mead
condition of the soldier The present Lord Grey,greetly to his
honour, bad introduced a system of reward for good conduct
which had been modified sad improved upon. He hoped
such a system would be carried out still further; that the
soldier would be made happy and reasonably comfortable,
and feel that his country respected him and valued his
services. Much of the happiness of the soldiers depended
on the treatment they received from their reprise, and he

was glad to have that opportunity of bearing testimony to
the kind and generous manner in which Um officers con-
ducted themselves with regard to the men under their
charge. He had always found them moat ready to join in
any sebum for the improvement and comfort of the
soldier. (Hear, hear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that allusion hid been made
to Mr. Wyndiion's system, but there was a wide difference
between the present bill and that m. sauce. The term pro-
posed by Mr. Wyndham's bill was seven years, and it was
only to he extended for six menthe in time of war, but the
measure before the house proposed a period of twelve years.
And then it was impowihM to take r. Wyndham's mea-
sure as a test of the effect of short service, for it only en-
dured eighteen months. In almost all the nations of Europe,
the term of the soldier's servitude did not exceed eight or
nine years ; and, with reference to the bill proposed by the
government, the probability was, that after the term of
twelve years had expired, if the troops were well treated,
they would re-enlist. Co! Napier—a good authority—bad
said that three years was sufficient to perfect the British
soldier; and, in addition to that time, there would be
nine years for the service of the soldier—the longest
period of military service in any part of the con-
tinent. The honourable and gallant member for Liverpool
(Sir H. Douglas) had said that the effect of the measure
would be to take away the good and not the had men from
the army, but he seemed to have forgotten that by the regu-
lations of last year those men who had two stripes in proof
of their good conduct were to be free after a service of twelve
years. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant member had
said that the real test of the army was its conduct in the
field, and he had referred to the Peninsular war. His (Sir
de Lac Emu's) little experience had been in the field,
(hear, hear,) and he bad no objection to apply such a test to
the bill. It must be remembered that the war referred to
only lasted seven years, and the bill proposed that the service
should extend to twelve years. It was notorious that the
morals of that army were of the lowest character. The Duke
of Wellington had said that it was little better than a mov-
ing hospital, and that was in consequence of disease art-Ing
from the immoral and degraded state of the men. Could
such an army be called well organized, and ought they to be
unmindful to improve the condition of the army in time of
peace? (Hear, hear.) The dispatches of the illustrious
duke would prove, more than anything else, the ne-
cessity of improving the army ; and unless the see
vies could be made more popular among the body
of the people they would get the dregs of ell classes—
whether from agricultural districts or the towns—to perform
the duties of the soldier. He hoped hereafter we should
have a voluntary army, for which recruits might be obtained
without the offer of a bounty or the necessity of the oratory
or other seductions of the recruiting sergeant. The noble
duke at the head of the army had acquiesced in this measure,
which was an argument in its favour, and it had not been
shown by any of his hon. and gallant friends who opposed it,
that twenty-oar years' service had in any degree contributed
to our great successes in war. (Hear. hear.) When the
bill was in committee he should suggest that it would be de.
*liable, under certain circumstances, that it should at once
come into operation, for he should be very sorry, if it was a
good measure, to see its benefits postponed for ten or twelve
years. (Hear, hear.) As to the objection that one effect
of the bill would be to make, by a thrift period of service, a
large proportion of the population of this country soldiers, he
could only say he believed that if such was the result it
would be very popular—for he remembered at the time of
the Reform Bill that the feeling was decidedly in favour of a
kind of national guard, and both in France and Spain, when
liberal opinions had been in the ascendant attempts had
been made by the ruling powers to put down the national
guard. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel T. WOOD expressed his disappointment that the
right hon. gentleman had not given some of the data on
which the present measure was founded. He 'greed with
him that a measure of this kind should be one o a perma-
nent character, but he could not say that the measure of the
goverment possessed it: It seemed to him to be a compro-
mise between two principles. lie preferred the plan of Mr.
Wyndham to that of the right hon. gentleman. Mr. Wynd-
ham proposed that the man should enlist for 7 years, at the
termination of which, his pay was to be increased a penny a
day, and at the end of 14 years he was to get Lis discharge,
and a pension of sd. a day. By the right hon. gentleman's
plan, the man was to be discharged after 10 years service,
and was then to go on the retired pension list; after 20
years service he was to have 6d. a day pension. It was not
to be expected that a man who had served 10 years would
re-enlist, unless the hope of a larger pension was held out.
(Hear, hear.) The only inducement which the right hon.
gentleman held out to the soldier was, that of education.
That was an important consideration, but he begged to say
' it was not neglected at present as much as was supposed.
He was of opinion that the colonial service would be quite
as hard upon the soldier under the right hon. gentleman's
as under the present system.
Colonel LINDSAY objected to the bill on the ground that
there was no inducement held out to the soldier to re-engage
himself. He thought that the principle cause of desertion
was the debt in which the soldier continued for a considera-
ble period after his enlistment. He considered that the
deferred pension was a boon to those who had served ten
years. There was a general feeling in the army that the
time of service was too lung and the pensions too small, and
he did not think that men would re-engage themselves un-
less some greater inducement than was held out by
this bill, was given to them to do so. Ile thought
it was more desirable that the wording of the orders
should be more plain, so that the soldiers could easily under-
stand them—(hoar, hear)—and he was of opinion that a
service of twenty-one years, with a good character, should
entitle a man to his 10d. or Is. a-day, without making his
ability to do further duty the criterion of getting it as was
now the case. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORPE said that change in every thing
seemed the order of the day. They attacked the church end
the law, and they attacked physic—(laughter)—now they
were going to attack the army. He, however, still reve-
renced the " wisdom of our ancestors," which was so much
deprecated in a reformed House of Commons—a pure House
of Commons. The right hon. gentleman the Secretary at
NVar wished to remodel even thing, and he talked of the
unhappy condition of the sol‘iers. He (Col. Sibtliorpe) was
for ten years in her Majesty's dragoons before he came into
this refined society. (Laughter.) If he cams into that house
unlearned, he generally left it ten time more unlearned, after
the long speeches which he was obliged to listen to. (Laugh-
ter.) lie denied that soldiers were disgusted with the ser-
vice, as stated by the right hon. gentleman, aid he entirely
concurred in every word that had been uttered on the sub-
ject by the boa. and gallant member for Liverpool.
Captain LAYARD said that from the time of is first
entering the service be had always felt a deep intersect in this
question. In 1842, when he thought it hie duty to propose
limited enlistment, Sir Henry Hardinge said the measure
was well worth the consideration of the government ; two
governments had acted on that advice, and this measure was
the result. The hon. and gsllant member for Liverpool
(Sir H. Douglas) had talked of a long war, and of the difli.
malty there would be in such a case in carrying out the new
system. Other countries were not influenced by that a:m-
oderation ; and within the last two years Austria hail re-
duced the period of enlistment from 15 years to S. The
hon. and gallant officer had accused him (Captain Layard)
of beingthfiuenced by a motive of shabby economy. It
was the interest of the soldier which be mainly sought, and
economy was a fair ground to urge in conjunction with that
interest. When the late Secretary at War brought forward
leaienilar measure, the gallant member for Liverpool did not
oppose it.
Sir H. DOUGLAS—I spoke strongly against it when you
first brought it forward. On the other occasion to which
you refer, I was not in the house. (Hear, hear.)
Captain LAYARD was grateful for that admiesion, con-
sidering that the measure was so important the fact
mentioned was worth leering in mind. (Hear, hear.) The
hen. and gallant member for Windsor (Colonel Reid), said
that young soldiers would run away, and that he had seen
them do so at Antwerp. He (Captain Layard) would ask
who it was that fought the battle of Waterloo ? The old
soldiers who had been engaged in the Peninsula were at
that time in America, and the battle was fought by persons
who were boys in comparison. Did any of the boys run
away on the occasion? hear.) If a man required
punishment it could surely he inflicted in a shorter period
than twenty-one years. (Hear, bear.) By the measure
before the house it was not proposed that a man should
actually retire at the end of the period, but simply that, if
not happy or contented in the army, he should ban the
power of returning to his family. If, a short time ago, a
man had asked him whether he would advise him to millet
in the army he would have replied " Certainly not." His
s
e
ich
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uld
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ey
into
coareythrlhameeStinc wifriwieelynesouhaeolltlolha.i:Tf.eisedthb 100
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stated
t wt
°tot u t fic 118
o:thtt all,
are:f miss
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r et;
tth: •
e. r the
yyesnUn;':: bounty
your
atnowyh quantity:h to
for
our
th
against you •
find the mortality in the Leeward Islands 85, in Jamaica
143, while the total number of deaths since 1817 has been
21,421, and they will give you salt provisions for five days
in the week ; the old soldiers who fought in the Peninsula
have no medals and no honours, though their bodies are
covered with them ; there is a deductio:4;o2er cent. from
the hard-earned pension ; the cases of oo punishment
amount to nearly 4,000 in throe years; lastly, they enlist
you for life ; on all these grounds I advise you not to take
the shilling." (Laughter.) A very different future was
now presented to them; and If the same question were now
put to him, he would advise the party to enlist, seeing that
most of the evils which he had stated bad been in a great
degree removed. When he first came forward in that house
as a military reformer, he was told that he should not be
listened to, and that Sir Henry Hardinge would jump down
his throat. He was glad to say tlut Sir Henry was
too wise a man to do any such thing. (Laughter.)
There was one point to which he wished to call the atten-
tion of the First Lord of the Treasury. The right hon.
baronet the member for Taraworth stated, in reply to a
question from that noble lord, in 1842, that, whatever might
be his opinion respecting the proprietyr of allowing the Com-
mander-in-Chief (then the Duke of Wellington) to have a
beat in the cabinet, he was certain it would not make any
difference in the selection of officers for promotion. Now, it
had made a difference ,• and it was the feeling outride of
that house that it hal. Officers, supporters of the Whig
government, bad been in that house for twenty years, with.
out promotion ; while men who had been su of the
right hon. Inning for oily 9er 10 yeas, were 'vatted
arankparent iseoralfthlisrleteet:iFitt4x"likww: Lftl:weiraf7anioe,th6r7tht.:•:"lsitsinalitiLed:rylwtatrini.reiawtoanait"to
the
Vwimilletheirluidguisilvdo7feeiali°naltniewo
7/11%gebIlWithidnonthe efolraityeanyearbtforebea.eaH*9e feWiltbvutit.thath" 11P41;tidiianenree
dillkealties is the case, but he hoped they would be exa-
mined into, and overcome.—The bill was then read a second
tine, end ordered to be committed.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
On the t.• ler of the day for going into committee on this
bill,
Lord G. I; ENTINCIi aid it would be in the tecollection
of the house. that the Secretary for Ireland recently stated
that there ass no pessiinlity of obtaining correct returns of
the deaths is Ireland. lie (Lord O. Bentinek) had received
'event letters from Protestant and Roman Catholic clergy-
' men, eh. wing distinctly that the right hon. gentleman was
entirely mis•aken, and that such information might be had
with tolerable accuracy, Oue of these gentlemen, the Pro-
testant incumbent of Newtownharry, in the county of Wee-
, ford, expreseing his surprise at the right hon. gentleman's
statement, said that, Recording to a canon law of the church,
the clergy were obliged to return an accurate copy of the
parish registry of deaths ani marriages. If there were any
difficulty respecting Ronson Catholic clergymen, there were
in Ireland 8.0 medical officers attached to dispensaries, not
one of whom, he was informed, were likely to refuse
their aid in procuring correct information en the subject.
The noble lord, who spoke in a very low and conversational
tone across the table, and was very inaudible, was understood
to conclude by qutstioning the course pursued by the govern-
resent in net supplying food for the people of Ireland in pro-
portion to the &stress.
Mr. LABOUCHERE hoped the house would not expect
him to follow the noble lord into the subject with which he
had concluded his speech with regard to the policy of the
government in relation to the supply of food for the people of
Ireland. He would only protest against the assumption that
the great loss of human life was to be traced to that policy.
Every day's experience convinced him that it was a wise
policy not so to interfere with the supply of foal as to check
private trade. It was owing to that course that now, by the
exercise of the energy of private trade, food was pouring into
the country, and prices falling ; whereas, if the government
had clone any thing to discourage it, no efforts of theirs could
have effected what was now being done. In Cork there
were no leas than 100 vessels with cargoes of food, and sing-
par importations were taking place in Galway and Limerick,
and he rejoiced that the government had not yielded to the
cry which would have unlaced them to adopt a different
policy. The result was, that now, when they were beginning
the arduous du'y of assisting the relief committees to supply
food to the people, they started with the depots of the go-
vernment lull, while at the same time there was in the
granaries mad wore-houses of private merchants immense
quantities. With regard to the returns of the comparative
mortality between this year and the last, he of to
them. It was not because he had auy desire to conceal the
the impression on hi+ own mind that the mortality
had greatly increased. It woe not on that account that
be objected to them, but because he believed it was im-
possible to obtain accurate returns, and he was unwilling to
grunt what would prove vague and inaccurate one.. What-
ever could be depended on fir accuracy was not refused.
There had been granted a return of the coroners' inquests,
and also one from the constabulary. But the noble lord
asked for a Tenant of the comparative return of the mortality
generally, and lie (Mr. Labouchere) had applied to those
seemlier@ of the Irish government. who were best informed
on the subject, as.il he was assured that there were no mate.
riala fur supplyin,; each returns with an accuracy that could
be depended on. The noble lord said that the Protestant
clergy kept a register of deaths, it being obligatory on them
by the cannon law to do so. But he (Mr. (thouchere) was
very much deceived if that law was generally °hurry], for
the only penalty fora neglect of that duty was, that the bishop
might proceed against the clergymen and churchwardens as
' contemners of that law. With regard to the Roman
Catholic clergy, he had asked several hon. members of that
house if they kept any registry which would enable them to
make a satisfactory return, and they said they did not. A.
there was no registry, therefore, either by the Protestant or
Catholic clergy, there could be no satisfactory returns, and
this was tha only reason for his refusing them.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL hoped that the granaries would be
opened freely, go to check the progress of destitution, for
there was no seed ; the wheat was said to be failing, whilst
the lose of life WWI excessive. The Catholic clergy were
quite unable to furnish materials for these return,.
Mr. F. SHAW said that the canon law was well observed
by the Protestant clergy. The Ecclesiastical Comminsioners
provided a form, end there was a complete return of the
number of their on n flocks over whom they performed the
ceremony of burial.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not but make some reference to
the statement which had been made by kis noble friend
the member for Lynn, especially as he had made it more
than once, and evidently under a misapprehension. He said
he (Lord J. Russell) had pledged himself to the corn specu-
laton not to interfere with their trade, and ne went on to
show by calculation the deficiency of provisions, and
made a comparison between what had been provided
in the last and the present year. He (Lord J. Reseek
did not so pledge himself to the corn speculators, Lei
having considered, in conjunction with his colleague,
what it was beet to do on the failure of the potato crop, be
came to the conclusion that it would be the hest course net
to interfere with the speculators, for reasons which he hail
stated before. The noble lord was mistaken In eappoeing
that the lute government intended entirely to feed the peo-
ple they made provision for their wants, and they im-
ported Indian corn into Ireland and made it &common
article of food. He (Lord J. l'iuseell) conceived that in so
doing they performed a great public service. (Near, hear.)
That that step could net be repeated, because it would have
been asked if the government intended to compete with the
trader, and some answi r would have been necessary. He
conceived that the purchases of Indian corn made by the
government wire for the purpose of introducing that food
into Ireland, and not with the vies to the government's
feeding the people. He bad never heard say member of that
government say so, or that Indian corn was purchased with
that view. If the government had undertaken to feed the
people, it would not have been possible for the statement to
be made which he had received from Cork.

"Cork, March 10.—Sir rime the 12th imitant, the arrivals
of Indian corn at this port have been unprecedented. There are •
at present MO Ran, containing as aggregate amount of breadartugh
not short of 20,000 ton., afloat in our harbour. An I before advised
you, the stock. of deniers he: e have been largely areumuhting for
the lard month, and it in now apparent that they have gone
overshot the mark in .peculation. Maine, which a month doer
brought freely 181. per tun, being this clay offered U. smell
parcels at LSI., and I shall not be nurprisel to see It
monidcrably lower, if any grAd pruport.on or the present arrivals
be forced upon this market, which to by ao mealn.• improbable.
Mill, some parties rontinor to hold out, and would bare it appear
that the ilepre..ion is only temporary: I Knot, sinctirclyt that they
may he minlaken. I regret to add ha thin cheering unellitecom
that fence m nporwribigeopidly twee OrnOnfrot aU aliases; nor few
hospitals are crowded to excess, and over 300 eatm ewes in the most
populous parto of the city tarots obtain mimis.ion from want of
room. P.S. Since writing the foregoing our media Int-wager has
returned from the Cove of Cork, and reports the number of arrival,
chiefly within the but 24 hour an even more ninincroun than I sap-
powd, but the weather being thick and stormy, it has not yet Mee
possible nee use to ascertain I ice !intoner.
The reason of this wee that Indian men had been imported
from America, and so great an amount had arrived that it
would be sold until the harvest, at lower prices than would
have been the case if the government had undertaken to
supply it.
Lord J. MANNERS begged to ask the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Labouehere), if, :titer whet hail been said by the
right hon. gentleman, the Recorder of Dublin, he would
make any further objection to the returns. His noble
friend asked for that portion of them which could be ob-
tained from the registry kept by the Church of Ireland,
and there could be no doubt that it was properly and
universally kept.
Mr. LABOUCHERE was surprised that the noble lord
had adduced the argument of the right hon. gentleman as
being in favour of the motion of the noble lord the member
for Lynn. What the noble lord asked was • return of the
comparative mortality of this year and the last, and the
right hon. gentleman said that the Protestant clergy did
register the deaths of their own congregations, bat that
would not be a satisfactory return. If the noble lord
attached any importance to obtaining a return of the deaths
of the Protestants, be would write to Dublin and see if it
could be obtained.
Mr. V. Sl' CART said he had received a letter from an
inspector, who stated that in Clonmel, in three parishes,
the public works were to he stopped on the 20th,
but no preparations bad been made fur the change. if that
was so, great suffering must occur—no lees than 2,000 persons
went to the workhouse at Dungervan en Thursday last. lie
thought it the duty of government not to make such a change
till some arrangement had been made.
Mr. J. COLLETT begged to ask a question of the eke*
hon. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland. Ile had wen it
stated that the government had sent M. Soyer to Irelan4
and that he had engaged 100 persons at an expense of £lOO
a day to distribute soup to the poor. He begged to know if
this expense was incurred by the public, and whether the
government had reason to believe the experiment would
succeed ?
Mr. LABOUCIIERE replied that it was true M. Serf
had gone over to Ireland, and had been in communicating
with the relief committee, who considered his suggestions
extremely valuable. With regard to the question of expense,
hie impression was, that the cost of M. Soyer'e first experi-
ment had been defrayed out of a sum collected by3ivago
subscription ; but the experiment having been entire sew
eeesful his plan had been since adopted by the relief com-
mittees. In reference to what had fallen from his Dm
friend behind him, he could assure the house that the ia
verament were fully aware that do what they would the
transition from dependence on the relief works to mess
legitimate employment must be attended with great distrait
but no exertion on the part of the executive or the relief
c .mmiesioners in Dublin would be wanting to being the mew
system into operation u speedily es possible, and k
terminating the employment on the relief works every
means would be taken to prevent as far as passible the
evil consequences his hon. friend contemplated.
Mr. D. BROWNE hoped that government would, by•
timely expenditure in providing wed for sowing the pt
when the landlords did not supply it, interfere to
the direful calamity which must result, not to Ireland oars
but to this country next year, should the ground remain sr
cropped for want of seed. (Heir.)
In answer to a suggestion from Captain HARRIS, white
was inaudible,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rated, thld
orders had been given to discharge from the rolief wain
those who were employed upon them the moment other err
ployment offered, in sowing the ground, or otherwise.
Mr. DISRAELI was anxious that a wrong Ottertail**
should not go forth to the public es to the oomparesise
efforts which had been made to provide food for the
starving people of Ireland by the present government sod
that which preceded it. When the present government
ceded to power, 94 corn depots were established in Irelands
which were reduced by them to 24 : and not only that, foe
he
found that lathe months of November and December
yernment bad distributed 638,032 lbs. of meal; while, in Mee
presioas mouths, June and Jaly, during which the synod;
of the forester government was in operation, the quantal so
meal distributed amounted to 25,2-57,000 Hsi It won
ell
very well for the noble lord to tell them that the herbals,.
Ireland were now crowded with erects laden will golloe
end that grain was every day coming is from abroad
the question was, were the government not now taking care