The Express.
London, England, 1865-03-01 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

Upcn the motion of Lord PoLotaitgron, it was agreed
that the howls at its rising should adjourn until to-morrow
Obis day) at two o'clock.
THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION.
Sir J. PAKINGTON moved for a select committee to
inquire into the constitution of the Committee of Conseil
as Education, and the system under which the business of
the office is conducted. His object was, he said, the re-
organiaation of the department, so that it might better
carry out the Intentions of parliament in regard to the edu-
cation of the people. He referred to the composition of the
Committee of the Privy Council, consisting of members of
the government who bad other special functions to
discharge, so that responsibility was dispersed, and be
read the opinions of practical persons (including Mr.
Linen), which showed that she constitution of the de-
partment was defective. Then, as to its working, he
thought there had been something in it indicating that it
was desirable there should be some change. He noticed
the dissatisfaction felt in the country, and instances ia
which the want of a single responsible minister of educa-
tion was. in his opinion, apparent in order to render the
department efficient. In conclusion be expressed his assent
to the amendment of which notice had been given by Mr.
Wolter.
Mr. WALTER then moved the addition of the following
words, "and also into the hest mode of extending the
benefits of government inspection and the parliameatug
grant to schools at present unassisted by the State." The hoe.
gentleman said be should have preferred &separate committee,
but oonsideriog the pressure of buaioess he supposed that
the house would hardly be disposed to grant him ooze. Be
therefore proposed the amendment, to which, he believed, !
her Majesty's government did not intend to offer any oppe- I
Alin, and which would leave the committee perfectly et
liberty to ooneider any plan that might be suggested to it.
Mr. LOWE said the Committee of Privy Council
In 1861 was placed io a very difficult position. It
was intponsible for the oommitUe to have carried out
the report of the royal etensiasion, which went into
the subject with unexampled care and attention, without
giving the most mortal offence to many thousands of
persona. The system was declared to be most defective ;
sot a quarter of the childree, it was said, were properly
educated, and the examinatioas were most ineffective.
Had the Committee of Privy Council failed in its duty, had
begun depreciating the report by every means in Its
pewee, it might bay* avoided a hada sad onerous respoe-
Ability. It might have used all the minas at its dispels!,
and they were by se means trilling ogee, to show that the
statements we,. 'lithely exaggerated, sad that the mews
was not liable to any objections • it might then have 'shel-
tered itself under a cloud of vested intends. It might thus
have 'voided all the palatal responsibility attendant apes •

sweeping change. Bat the Lord President, to his honour,
did nothing of the hied. The bond set themselves to ex-
amiss the difficulties in their way ; and without entering
into details, he might say that they swept away the vested
rights of some 10,000 DISOWN/ who Imagined themselves to
be in the position of government employ& fee the rest of
their lives ; they reined the system of manaflrpill;
meats from • complicated form to a simple and ia
plan ; introdund an improved system of examination
late the which operated not meeel7 vie an aid, bat
se a powerful lever to the increase of thidr
(hear, head—sad they did what the right hon. blesnearrtad—
trusted hint (Mr. Lowe) with not doing, they made as bi-
ennial, by introducing the system of payment by resides.
(Hear, hear.) They altered the position of some 16,000
' pupil teachers ; they reformedth• training colleges,
the country from the burden, aid continued to entail:jet
so that the were only paid for the work actually per-
formed. They did not raise possibly the standard of the
schools, but they spread education further among the
lower cheese of children. (Hear, bear.) The schools were
sot distinguished by a few dower scholars, but more
attention was paid to the dull and more back-
ward pupils. Above all, it was left in the power
rof
oper, the
to lower
th
of Commons, wh they thought
or to rube e whole scale of the green by
the alteration of • eagle figure. (Hes:, hear.) They had
ennesded in the main in a peg undertaking ; difficulties
had bees made to disappear before them ; the system wee
MAIN dews into scantling like working eider ; and be
asked lie been, he asked any hon. gentleman of Immon
hisses sad candour, whether it was possible for a depart-
ment blurry thrmigh such Omegas as thaw without'
peat ffieWqdactionl (Hear.) There were at least 10,000
clever, many of them disoontested perms, in the country
who believed that they had been deprived bythe committee
of the support which bad been hitherto given to them by
the government. Then, no doubt, then was great dissatis-
faction felt by the clesrrggyy. The clergy were much inte-
rceded, as must neceereily be the case, with • voluntary
system foanded upon religion ; and they had not met with
tealeistemos they ought to have received front their lay
neighbours—(hear, heer)—partly from the decay of the
voluntary spirit arising out of the influence of government
pants; and it was much more OW to attribute these results
to the Committee of Privy Council than to their true causes.
Is 1869 the amount of the pant was 840,000 i. For four
or live years lotioneseed at thereto of 100,0001. a/ear, and
if they :had go n at that rate, it would, as Sir J. Shuttle-
worth had predicted._have been 1,300,0001. instead of
700,0001. which bad asked for last year. AU that
had been done—though not without pressure—emu!.
' taneously with great simplifloatioe of the machinery, sad
vast improvement in the character of the instruction oom-
munioned. Such bad been the career and such had been
the conduct of that department, and everything that had
been done was open to the auspectioa of the house. It was
quite right for the executive gevernment to oousider them-
selves as servants of the public, and to be at all times
reedy to render an amount of their prooesdiegs. But it
was hard that it should be preened against the department,
bemuse it had incurred unpopularity and raised dimatisfac-
Bon by Introducing reforms which had been carried mainly
by the fore, of good cease and ream, and which had re.
mewed, and still receive°, the anent of the House of Com-
mons, that such an investigation should be pressed upon it.
(Hear, hear.l He must say it looked as if they were offered
up an victims of the storm they had created for doing their
duty to the public. (Hear, hear.) The house was not
aware of the evils which must insult from each • committee.
To the department itself, which was overladen with work,
it would be an enormous mischief. The department for the
hat seven yean was under constant inquisition and inquiry,
and in a constant state of ferment and revolution. And
DOW they proposed to subject it to • fresh ordeal of the
same kind, on such grounds as the right hon. baronet had
laid before them. He begged leave to observe that • fly
could not live for ever under a microscope, or tied under
• harrow. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Unless the depart-
ment had • superhuman vitality it must ultimately be
broken down and destroyed. The present system might
not be the best, but it was the best law which the
Athenians were capable of reoeiving. (Hear hear.) The
question had been settled, and be most bitterly deplored
that it was now to be tuned over to • select committee to
be canvassed. He deplored it, but he could not prevent it.
He had only done his duty to the deportment with which he
had been so long connected in offering hie feeble opposition
to the motion. (Cheers.)
Mr. ADDERLEY thought that the apprehensions of Mr.
Lowe as to the effect of the appointment of the proposed
committee were groundless. The present constitution of
the department, in his opinion, wee not satisfactory, and
was • subject well worthy of inquiry- (Mr. Adderley was
interrupted while pursuing his argument by • count of the

homer
Sir L. PALK supported the motion and ameadmnet, and
advocated • plan for enabling small rural parishes to obtain
• portion of the perlismentery grant.
Mr. F. POWELL controverted some of the statements
of Mr. Lowe. He supported the motion for inquiry, be-
that it would teed to improve the relations between
li vi
ti:eniestion Department and the nation, and to place the
system upon • surer basis.
Mr. BRUCE said it wee not his intention, on the part of
the government, to offer any opposition either to the
motion or to the amendment He could not altogether
agree to the proposition of his right hoe. friend (Mr.
Lowe) that no additional information on this subject could
result from the appointment of a committee. But on the
other band he could not bat feel that the very formation of
the committee might serve the rueful purpose of re-
storing peace and harmony and good understanding
both in that house and in the country on this long
vexed subject of education. (Hear, bear.) The ho-
nourable member for Cambridge (Mr. F. S. Powell)
bad drawn attention to the conscience clause.
Now the Committee of Council felt themselves
bound to see that where there was only one school in •
parish, the religious oonvictioas of the dissenting minority
should be considered. (Hear, hear.) He would advert to
• cam which bad occurred in • wish in Lincelabire, when
there was • national school which, though it received a
grant from the state, had been established before the adop-
tion of the conscience clause was insisted upon. Two
children of • Baptist were meat to the school, and after
they had been there a few weeks the clergyman discovered
that they were Bsptiats. He therefore informed the
peseV that unless they were baptised they must
leave the school. The parents hesitated some time,
but there being no other school to mead the children to,
they at length consented to their being baptized. A. few
years afterwards they sent another child, a little girl, and
spin the clergyman insisted upon He being baptized. The
parents refused, and the child was withdrawn from the
school; and at the present moment the Committee of Council
were corresponding with the trustees en the subject. The
clergyman had undoubtedly • right to act as he had done ;
but he (Kr. Bruce) would ask whether this was not • case
which amply justified the committee in insisting upon the
conscience clause beiog adopted ? (Hear, hear.) It was in
his opinion impossible that the question could be settled by
abandoning the position taken by the committee. (Hear.)
Lord R. CECIL was not about to enter at any length
into the controversy about the conscience clause, though he
could not conceal from himself the difficulties in which
that question we involved. But he would remind the right
bon. gentleman who had just sat ;down that the existing
system derived its full energy in the spread of education
from the cooperation of religious zeal. If they accepted
the co-operation of religions seal they must also accept all
the conditions upon winch it was given. Men did not are
to teeth a boiled down, doll, diluted, colourless religion—
s mere system of morality divested of the cardinal truths
neon which they believed their salvation depended. He
should like to reserve to some future occasion his observa-
tions on the conscience clause, bemuse his right hon.
friend the member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakiegton) did not
raise that question. His right hon. friend went upon the '
constitutional question, and advanced the doctrine, which he
(lord Ft. Cecil). maintained to be fundamental, that any
provision se important es the enforcement of the
sonscasoce clause ought never to have been under-
taken by the executive department without the
comsat of the House of Commons. The right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Bruce) had referred to the widemrsed dis-
content which existed in the country as to the operation of
the education code. and the right hoc. member for Woe
seemed to claim credit for the extent of the boldness with
which he challenged the ill-wall and discontent at the
managers of schools. If that were a virtue, be was bound
to my that there was not a more virtuous member of the
house than the right hon. gentleman ; but it was more in
accordance with the practice of the house to believe, when
any widespread discontent existed in the country spinet
its proceedings, that that discontent ought to be, at all
events, • subject for careful consideration. (Hear, hear.)
There was no doubt that the feeling of the managers of the
schools and of the clergy was directed specially to the power,
end the mode to which that power wee exercised
by the present secretary of the council. He wished
to make no charge whatever wounding to the feel-
lop of that gentleman ; on the contrary, if
be was inclined to seems him of seething. what
he should accuse him of was that, being an able man and
having strong views of what was for the good of his country,
he grasped at all the power he could for carrying them into
effect. The responsibility of the educational department
was • sham. All the power for practical purposes was
motred in the permanent officer, and so long as be en-
tertained opioions hostile to the straightforward and proper
working of the denominational system, and retained the
power he now possessed, the educational department and
the managers throughout the country would sever be
brought into harmony. The subject was me for careful in-
quiry, with • view of ascertaining if any undue power was
lodged ia a men who was not responsible to parliament.
Indeed, the state of opinion out of doors the admis-
sions of officials, the discontent which previiled, sod the
difficulty which bad harassed the department for the last
six years, were ample reasons why there should be • full
sad searching inquiry. (Hear, beer.)
Mr. AYRTON MO of opinion that Mr. Lowe bed
rendered eminent Nerves' to the country in the education
department*, which would suffer by his loss.
Mr. G. HARDY wished to manes the discoid= to the
=air which the *airy of the committee would be
to the exolusio• of religions _ „Wrlo! eg4 other
maiden into which the debate had travelled.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR suggested the separatioe of the Com-
mittee of Cowed for Education from the Privy Council.
He hoped that the reforms to the select weaatttes would
include Ude gloat= an well as that of the mall rural
sohook.
Mr. HENLEY Dotted the confusion In the ersts of
working the edecetica department in gelatine in rftni=
teaching. He thought the inquiry would do good by
into the whole eyetem of *e working of the odiosi-a—rt