The Express.
London, England, 1849-05-15 00:00:00

attention of the house should be directed to certain bilk,
and that they should be disposed of before other motion'
ware introduced. In regard to supply, the hon. member far
Oxfordshire was right in his statement that they were lase
in many of the voter. As to the vote for the army, they
had waited till this time to see whether the select committee
would make any report on that branch of supply. They had
now informed Um. that they would not be able to go into the
consideration of the army nt present, and theretore, tmltl
now, they were not in a state to proceed with the votes as
' the army. Whilst he said that he could not vote for them.
lion of the hon. gentleman, he must ark the hours to fulfil
the arrangement to which they agreed before Easter, and
allow goy, mutt nt to take the orders of the day.
- •

Mr. OSBORNE said that, after the speech of the noble
lord, he should withdraw his amendment.
Mr. S. WORTLEY understood that the feeling of the
house was, that he should not persevere in his motion, and
he would therefore withdraw it.
Motion withdrawn.
CASE OF W. S. O'BRIEN.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that a message be sent to tits
Lords, requesting a report of the proceedings in the mu of
W. S. O'Brien and others. Agree I to.
LAND IMPROVEMENT AND DRAINAGE (In&
LD) BILL.
On the order of the day for the committee on this bin
being read,
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that was a very fair opportn.
nity for expressioe his opinion respecting the general pone,
of government, if he might attach the term policy to the
COLITIS they were pursuing towards Ireland. lie had watched
with great attentioa the conduct of government towards that
unfortunate country, end he bad taken great pales to learn
what was their general scheme of Irish policy. The public
money had been sin nt ; he bad taken pains to prevent that
expenditure, knowing that it was not spent in alleviating
the misery of Ireland. That country had been in a mated
distress for the last three years—he did not mean bet
ordinary or chronic distress with which every one was
familiar ; but that remarkable amount of destitution
which had arisen from the failure of the potato crop. (Hear,
hear.) About three years since they were suddenly informed
by the government of the right hon. baronet opposite, that
probably a famine was 'butt to take place in Ireland, that
the potato was about to disappear. and that those who had
been accustomed to live en that root would no longer be able
to obtain as much food as would sustain nature. The right
hon. baronet the member fur Tamworth, alarmed at such
prospects, proposed the repeal of the corn laws; he sues
ceded, and but for that success be (Mr. Roebuck) firmly
believed that England would not now be able to contrast
her tranquillity and prosperity with the scenes of terror and
of blood which unfortunately pervaded the conticent of
Europe. (Cheers.) The right bon. gentlemen soon seceded
from his post, and the noble lord succeeded ham ; and what
bad the noble lord since done? He bad a right to sac
that question then, because the question before the house
was only one out of many plans to take money out of the
pockets of his countrymen for the amelioration of the state
of Ireland. How had that state been brought about ? Why,
the landlords of Ireland had been long sustained by that
house, they had acquired a domineer:rig spirit, had become
wasteful in their expenditure, and going habitually beyond
their income had been obliged to burthen their property to
maintain their vanity. (Hear, hear.) Thee bad done me
thing more, and here was the sore spot in the axial condi-
tion of Inked. They. had allowed parties to c--me and offer
high rents for small teems of land, thus dividing their pro-
perty into small bolding, ; and the persons whom they ac-
cepted as tenants were rely able to pay their rects by liv-
ing on the lowest species of food which would sustain
human nature—namely, the potato. At length that wretched
dspentlaace failed, and now the Irish proprietors found
themselves hampered with a numerous population suddenly
deprived of their only food. (Hear, hear.) He objected to
the noble lord's mode of meeting the emergency. If the
noble lord had applied for the means of supporting the
Irish people for two years, end in the mean time had sot
them to the cultivation of the land, but not for the produc-
tion of the potato, they might have been rescued from their
degradation. They should know the numher that was
likely to be destitute. Every one in Ireland was net miser-
able, but certainly the destitute comprehended a large pro-
portion of the agricultural population. How much money
had they expended already, and in what state had that ex-
penditure left the people of Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) He
was afraid to enumerate the millions which the ecuntre had
spent in the sunport of the Irish populaton. (Hear,
bur.) And when he .poke of the Irish population,
he took his range from the highest to the lowest,
and he did not find any practical difference in any of them.
They were all agreed upon one point, and that was in the
desire to live without labour, (" Oh, oh," from the Irish
members.) Gentlemen might cry " oh." but English people
had to pay ; and therefore he decried that desire, which
the government of this country bed done so much
to foster. That feeling had unfortunately extended to
all classes in Ireland, and if he wanted a text-book
from which to illustrate the morality of the Irish people
he should take the returns showing the application of
the sums which had been voted for Deland. Whom
had they found to be the receivers? was it the poor?
Not at all ; the money of England was thrown into a vast
heap, and there was • scromble of Irishmen of all ranks to
receive it. Jut as they might have seen on a crush night at
the opera, all ranks rushed to get a handful of the English
money. (" Hear," end a laugh.) The effect cf that had
been to foster the habit which the Irish people had of
living on the produce of other men's labour. They had not
been taught by the government to be self-dependent as were
the reop'e of England, to live by their own hands and their
own beads, but there was the eternal cry for more money.
He never heard Irishmen open their mouths but their cry
was the same. " Somebody must do something for us," but
that somebody was never themselves. (A laugh ) He said
this in the bearing of his auembled countrymen who were
asked to provide for those who would not provide icr them-
selves. What was the bill before the house? It was
a bill to tax the people of this united empire that the
land of Ireland might be drained. He had tom, lend, and
should Ike to have it edrained ; bit he did not think he
should ask the government to drain it for him. A similar
bill had, he admitted, been passed for England and Scotland,
but the injustice in one case was no ground of defence in
another. He would ask what principle ought to govern the
application of capital to land or to anything else? Had
they not heard it in detail from the noble lord and the right
! hon. member for Tamworth that the application of capital
should be left to private enterprise and private ad-
I venture, and that governments ought never to inter-
fere ? Arterial drainsag might be good for the land—
no doubt it was, but it was also good for the proprietor of
that land, and was not the business of the government.
(Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told
them on a former evening that this grant was to be a means
of employing the people in productive labour. If that were
the object, why had they not acceded to the proposal of the
late Lord G. Bentiuck, who proposed to advance sixteen
millions for the construction of roads? There was little
practical difference between making roads or deepening
water channels through the land. In his opinion it would
have been better to have granted the sixteen millions three
ears since than to dribble as they did day by dsy only to pro-
long the misery of Ireland. (Hoar.) They were now asked for
300,0001. for the drainsge of land, ostensibly to employ the poor;
but he asked any man of sense would not the whole benefit
accrue to the landed proprietors of the country? He
opposed this bill as part of the general policy of government,
because he sew nothing in that policy to relieve him from
the apprehension of constant taxation hereafter. (Hear,
hear) If they applied labour properly to the fruitful soil
of Ireland, be believed that in two years they would rescue
the people, and efface the ravages of the potato famine; if
1 they did this, the English people would not foil them in the
hour of need, but would show themselves brethren in heart
as well as in law ; but if, on the contrary, they did not, then
!they would have the people separated into two hostile nations,
and their bill would be held up to acorn as a proof of their
insufficiency in legislation.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL commenced with a vituperative
attack upon Mr. Roebuck, but was calked to order by the
Speaker, apologised, and proceeded more calmly and dispas-
sionately. The hon. and learned member had given them a
lesson about the Poverty and the crime of Ireland. and he
had included all Irishmen in his denunciation. The hon.
member had accused Irishmen of immorality. Were they to
defend themselves from that charge ? If so, he was ready to
go into that question. When the hon. gentlemen spoke of
immorality let him compare the two countries. Had they
in Ireland any instances of parents poisoning their children
for the sake of the burial =newts they had in England?—
' had they a regular system of abortion houses, such as existed
fa this metropolis ?—was the state of society in Ireland so very
"moral " that it was unsafe for a person to pass near a sentry
box at night, as was the case here 3—or had they instances of
(bah! n receiving education in public schools who, when asked
the question, were ignorant of who the Redeemer was ?—or had
they above all prof won of economy, writers in the public
newspapers patronised by the government, who put forward
the inhuman gad blasphemous doctrine unrebuked, that the
population of Ireland, being out of proportion to the capital
of the country, must be starved down to an equality with
that capital ? (" Oh.") The honourable gentleman had
talked of the Irish members coming to beg English
money. English money ! Why, Iceland paid a much larger
proportion to the general funds of the empire, as CJUI•
pared with her means, than she bad a right to do
under the act of union. (Hear, bear.) Give Ire-
land again the free management of her own, and
she would not ask you for your money. The hon. and
learned member had made a violent ethnic on the landlords;
bat if the 'stadia% de had been guilty of the misdeeds the hon.
member charged mordant them, they had been encouraged in
them by the legislsture, whose whole course had been to
throw power into the hands of the landlords. If parliament
d fplacing theoundation,,
trheelatetionnasntsofeoluailaddlnoort have
daanyde
had been ; and in accusing land-
lords the hon. member was accusing them for that which
the house had compel', d them to do by refusing that assist-
ance which would have afforded the means of giving employ-
s
ment to the Irish people. (Hear.)
had
tenantpo& p
e Fr d
en sl a
sae
dlaws
a betterf
they
o r
Sir H. W. BARRON would not, notwithstand-
ing the provocation of the hon. and learned mem-
ber for Sheffield, enter into personalities. He would
merely expresa his deep ragret that any English member
should have evinced eo bad a spirit as that hon. and
learned gentleman had exhibited in the whole course of his
observations. He did not envy him his (mango when he
must know that the words he had that night uttered might
be the means of causing the deaths of thousands of his
fellow-creatures by starvation. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL Moored that the bon. and learnei
member for Sheffield having been so long absent from the
house might account for Ws evincing a much keener appetite
for an Irish debate than hon. members who had been present
from the commencement of the session were likely to possess
—(" Hear" and a laugh)—and it was because their hunger
was SO much abated by the large supply of this kind of food
with which they had been tarnished, that they not en-