The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-27 00:00:00

„i, makteg himself as • dissenter. (Hear) MT is j
,a,". 31:.j: the roan that females' *mid asy—".Laet year I I
...4".. s' 11114 this year lam charged 41. t what es the rem
r--. 7. ••• I/11, .it.” the answer would be, "the reason is
ea'
Lca own attsehed to the church, while two or three of
-,"...ights wee have goose over to dissent. They have now
rt• - , and therefore you must pay twice as much."
whiner tile).
we should expose the estahlished church to
fail'. then,
lanes by taking such a step. (Hear, bear.) At
sisnie ',oe time, I shall not object to the bon. and learned
~...'-`,man laying his bill upon the table. (Hear.) I cam
altered that it may safely he enter.
~,,,,,er 1
*-..,...1 by the house; but unless very much al seed I can-
" ' tto its passive into a law. (Hear. hear.) NVell,
ad ex.!' . . , .
aO. the queens is wh•. at.! we really obliged to do with
~.‘er • to due iliestion of church rates ? For one, I think
""' ::. el. as at present *aiding. has been very much
*--- • ' (II • r hear.) In ISM no
irogrfro, ,a
~doubt, we eon-
sooily bean' or battles arid contests in paru:tes and via.
L, . ind .1 1111 my very seendelons scenes. Many persons,
"*.4- and .uet in at peewee is the Howes of Commons,
:nealit th it 1 remedy was necessary. Different remedies
wen, „j.p.m. I. but none were sanctioned by parliament.
pje„meat. ..n the contrary, chose to remain still upon this
re ,ct. snendl mast say that from 1810 to 1843 I don't
geeis that many great practical evils h eve resulted from
the lIIPStet date of the law. (Hear, hear.) Now, mind, I
•ii-im l'a.4 eel nor that the law might not bo improved. It
aa br, iir instance, be improved by sweeping away the
- 2-1 ion of the Eeelesimical Courts with regard to
Pinehechjle,.. 01, a/ 3 Wtth respect to the act of the 10th
IV
~ I thtek that instead of taking away the tat'inrity
Otte sa.ridrates whine the qurstiuu of the rate's validity
ij..pated, it night be allowed to extend to these eases,
obiurh it might be desirable to have some civil court
3,pe' 1 which might deal with the m without the eit-
-411,,af ..:e. and delay of the present mode of litigation.
ly. bd
Vie.
lt hear 1 That I think is desirable, end that, as
o otssre ed by the right h the
member
1w the l'alverstty t 1 Cmbrid, might be done without
yjragom up. n the general s getate of the law. Ido not
ggak, h.mtser, that we are in • state for legislation even
seas the &leer, became I think it is desirable that the
beagal.oputed and famous Braintree case should first he de.
sided, sal the law laid Mien by the highest judicial mi-
lord, in tee couny. (Hear, Mar.) In almost all
jgo lege towns where church rause have been opposed,
*it errei•wa ha. been successful and no church rates are
gweebtaimel. On the other hand, where there is a wil.
goers, sa in the rural districts, there they are paid. lam
Ida dist the effect of the voluntary principle is likely to be
misty ,lariats what it has been in large towns where
data rates have been refused ; and that there is nothing
ow easy An i simple
,then to part with this 300,0001. or
sopeg.- ',believer it may be—a year, for you will find all
seats supplied by churchmen ss liberally as is done
cittntleetus. but 1 wash the house and the protestant
dastaten themselves to consider that the ease is very
direst hoes those which are cited u examples. The
ileneters raise for thenterlv. s places of worship sufficient to
eressavalre all those who form the reaps tire congregations
sad out claffeult to be kept in repair. But with regard to
*clinches it SUSI be considered that they were not on.
gunly iatee.l4 for • small portion of the community, for
a aegle stet, or even for a majority of the community.
They were place, of worship intended for the oats a at
begs, sad Ido think it would be a hardship as regards
ebsclusea, and • shame and disgrace as regards the
weeny, if a small number of persons were obliged to keep
0 reseal edifices which required great sums to be spent
spa he for repairs. (Cheers.) You provide against
*a by the preset system, and you have • remedy so
beg as the law at present goods. (Hear, heir.)
ydm request the house to beware bow they Give their sn-
owily sal suction to doctrines which, although they may
so appear on the face of the proposition itself, would be
esd MB be carried by votes 3f this his. if you agree to
itpespeitioo of the hoe. baronet. (Cheers.) I han
Ind, sertaisly with great interest, the pamphlet of the
VW hied opposite; but the noble lord states prin.
Oils that would go much further than he
lima himself he dispesed to go. Fur Meant.,
bays, "As a matter of justice it is felt to be wrong to
me apes aces to pay fee the propagation of opinions in
isle* they do sot share." (Loud cheers.) No doubt the
egament is good when used against a anon rigorous en-
inweseat of chards rates; but if yes carry it out to its
deztest it will map the foundations of the established
duet (l.heers.) The suttjeet of establishments is far
be wide and Important to enter into in the present state of
111 debate, bat let not honourable gentlemen conceal
Ism themselves the importance of the princi-
ple laid down by the noble lord, because
it it was involved the whole question of the established
*Mee of England and Scotland. (H. ar, hear.) Ido
Owe. thenfree, while this house will always be reedy to
hos se say practical remedy which may be proposed to
hen the evils attendant upon church rotes, that if they
weld maintain the principle of us establiabssont they will
gin as tounieunes to doctrines whkds are inconsistent
oath it (Cheers.)
lb. BRIGHT said the noble lord had not been so con.
lime Idenell as to coupe criticism ; because, although in
wive Inn spry to a proposition like that of Sir W.
Cloy, and although in 1849 he stoutly opposed a proposal
of 4.r W. Page Wond, similar to that of the hor.
muter fur Taviatock, he now disputed the principle of
Ihe Willians.Clay's proposal, and allowed the bill of the
Ma. member for Tavittoek to go at leest as for as a first
WA*. (" Ilea, hear," and laughter.) In this, as in
eme other matters, the noble heed did not seem to have
pole nub progressduring some years past. (Laughter )
Be (Mr. Bright) was glad to have heard the debate, and
shinned the temper in which it had been conducted—ex.
apt by the members of dm two Ilaivorsities, who seemed
Oho quite obsolete in their opinion. Had the govern-
ing of the country always been sarried on by members
dile anivs ratite we should have been Roman catholic
bon relit/leo and Austrian in Sur politics to this day.
Pin) He (Mr. Bright) could not quite agree with
eilir plan. Stall he did not think the objection to the
gin of pew seats was tenable, because it already existed
Carey great extent both in churches and ebs, eb, and
he did a* *Mk any nun going to a plies rf
=la • pm* spirit would be deterred by bevel •
he._ levant according to his mean:. (11. es
1111) With regard to Mr. l'hil'imore's pia;
Is should have still greater objections to it
Mr were • chillier's*, because it repudiated he
lithe of the aiiikeidity of the altu.r:hdlilidt w supposed
nein of that eummwates wend be Laden to maintain.
Om hears) Far his nut geld he nesimmesied the
*nee of the erns width bed bees Mewl to Ire-
▪ with regard to numb ease. By the martsUment of
am *Me items of expeadiemes in omistiessiail objects,
skin follra.P liked to keep the din* Melia
h_weir. he ams, lINSIIIMPOS semi
Idebed ben Lid snap*im egkeep* al adiebeam—mum set
Sedint with SO meantime and shaplicity which Choir
doily te lie dismal by the professors. Beelike
Iptst =gin =meg *et was raised by almeeb
Wee
beT=traLow. la the
_2OO *
he ) as ism them 711*. a yen
man le* nursed to the stem TIM had bees *eight
ins to 16014 and lON OW dein& nen hail bin abo-
Ided, and the fend hisame odor manner.ls believed that thaeliZambry *WPM was adieling. "
' amet=otsek tiers es
ase rirzaisetkrads. bodies.
{bat woo an gowned by rbe wirer, outwti h.elms :I:lonely
thar:batint (Hear, beer.) In Rochdale, out of 15 or
&Itches, there was only one that was ever supported
rates; these rates were now abolished; and still the
of that churl* was supported. (Hear, hear.) If
vent to Scotland, they saw what the free church had
la the last tea years. (Cheers.) At a meeting at
hit was stated that the voluntary principle,
r in
bet
Sise Madman more to pereide pions of lot-
-Ist
ae
for the seek libes the 'stab-
dime during the wide course of
Mai(Ole* beer.) All the, saw throughout
wee a grad bee wildly assmismary ecepulsory
=were for the egged el ter to any sect. Is
that perdue elf aspoyp which was
fle Poorest bad psi bra
+pas in ass me and ba
se of wage bsilt
so g plasm; it
les purling to km. lees.Moreben . they eldelsed the
than tkeebuilt In many places
his churches and cat the seal of the
Pule and the way in whiebilli, Md, out of their
'el Poverty, M rapport the aim *Ohl& they were at-
kind. (Chests.) In Weise, whim alien siOtr tenths of
b IPOPIIIIIIOtI line seemened with oimeatkie begins they
ai eapphed e Zga.a7 &bell:gall."' scsscrtree. lylan
&WM or •
Tydril, a Ildie mis slily one ens-
numb ; Imo =lin nearly ready
IM stoned ; mad* bad Ir=limealill dose; but there
me seteally s ihisalks slob. of built Mg
111elltd entiill the set the
Au r, tis. (B hear. Thel=ConflelO this was net
k nom ef raise, if the wee disposed *
Pede with it, wee really a very doge, Illins nos
oft 'sly tiro ways ia which it add be sellikil.
lon me that by the mermen of veil lie
the lieu (gosesPZldiaellassather, whew they ihemeld ID ,
hewn the • d ettereh_ rarity. The es* '
he weimated a mmentry fir man th` f•bri" el
hind was WOlOOl. • year. But if the beam wadi
at 'assent to that—if a bill were paned 19 abolish Aura
um, trittintitmay ether providos whitener, he would at
leheite to say that by the voluntary esstribadess of per-
. las atteatl.ag cherub** throughout Raglamill sad Wake,
periodical or anneal emstribadems ea some particular
. . obis sermons might be preached ter that special
they would raise in every parish is easel mosey me
a_a lell "roak ;To to support the fabric of the ebsreb. (Cheers.)
'ma sse re a diarrhea& at that memem, such wee his
bUlear in the liberality of those who attended church,
bib, &Geld have no objection whatever to 'vote fur such
111 IL (Hear, bear.) In his own perish (Rochdale)
61111
_sh..eure..h, wee a very old one, and required to
romi::_u_i end a young man in that town, of
taxed t.nou , !flat of
.great seal for the church, had ob•
3ot Fate," eau specifications; the estimated cost was
• L., •,., ft.soutof his moderate income he offered to sub-
"'taZlAmtivri!.. and be called on the churchmen in the parish
be the remaining sum. (Hear, hear.) That woe
teen of great zeal sod great liberality; and though it
utletta onbemeee than many would de, yet if the church wore
its own resources, that church would not be
wont, suppertio" smother hour if it had sr deadened the
k'l•tle.ttoyed the vitality of the people, and made them
C. r3reltss of their own stud, that they would not do that
5111hie,,li the
o free church of Scotland, which the poor people
, Males. and which the trodden down and insulted catho-
:lo.ol,3l,.eand bad long done for themselves. (Cheers) The
1-41desse, , t come either from a better administration of
1..111. • prupsetir, or from the voluntary contributions of
,' watchmen. Did anybody believe that • vote would
ner
jpea that home for • sum of 100,0001. or 510,000/.
Ojes: fur the support of the fabrics of the church 1
k (Vest, hear.) 'There was not a man there who believed