The Express.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

...ear -----
which comprised the great bulk of the emigration of
al
see year, there went to the North American colonies 42,404
weson_Ls to the United States 67,792, melting a total of
now T 1 le-7--poriTr—orit Ceara kin -Dial the elstien'ter
the emigration was very nadir to MI of the two previous
Mons. Mr. Ilserkes said :—. I am not aware that the
number of additional settlers this year has been much
greater than before, but there is certainly. a much larger
of Irish emigrants in a state of destitution as to
clothes and bedding far exceeding anything that I have
before witneased." He went oa to say that the reports of
the emigration agent. in Canada West stated that there
*as little, if any, distress among the emigrants in the
west; and that although some of the works would
shortly he completed, there would probably be a
demand for a large amount of emigrant labour. Now,
seeing, in the first place, that there had been so Large 1
en
amount of emigration under the present symtem ; seeing, 1
in the next plate, that it was observed by the agents for
emigration that there were still a gee it number of pauper
families iu Ireland, he owned he should be afraid
of attempting o gave a stimulus to emigration in
Ireland, and in other parts of this kingd ram, which might
have one of two effects, either sending to Canada a great
numler of paupers who onukl not Bud employment, or what,
perhaps, would be equally objectionable, involving a great
waste of public money upon those who, nor, by their own
means, find their way to the colony. In this latter case, many
persons would come upon the public purse, and, instead of
asking their relatives in Canada, or some other colony, to
send there the means of going out, numbers would con-
ceive that there might be an end of all providenee and fore-
sight, because the state was undertaking to pay the whole
expense of emigration. (Hear.) There ware some difficulties
with regard to ernieratiou shipments, under the provisions of
the Panne' re' Act, which it might be desirable to remove.
He did nor, however, propose that there should be a
great government plan cf emigration ; sod. whatever mea-
sure he might bring forward to promote emigration in future,
he wished to give no hope that a rich. me of an extcneive
nature would be introduced. (Hear.) Sir (continued the
noble lord). I know not whether the caleulatinns of Sir
Robert Kane may he taken as a sober estimate, but he main-
tains that there are such Trauma' in Ireland, such aericul-
tarsi resources, independently of mineral resources, and other
means of employment by water power for manufactures,
that not lea than seventeen millions of people could be main-
tained in that country. I do not enter into this calculation ;
but this I any, that if a good system of agriculture were
introduced ; if grad security were afforded for the investment
of money inland ; if the proprietors themselves undertook the
task of improving the country, and the other clams co-operated
with them, I tin not think that the present population of
Ireland would be an execs/sive population. (Hear, hear.)
Sir, I am speaking in accordance with the opinion of some
who have very well weighed tho rat:weer. of Ireland. (Hear,
hear.) And now, before I conclude, if the houn will so far
bear with me, I will venture to allude to countries which
apparently have been in abed a state, so far as their general
mends ion was concerned, u Ireland is in at present,an;l which
we now see flourishing, and in the poneesion of order, peace,
and security. (Mar, hear.) I thing there may be some
good in that retrospect ; became. I know that, in the view of
so many evils which have afflicted Ireland, and especially in
the view of the present calamity, there are some who are
disposed to despair. (Hear, hear,) I am not. (Loud
cheers.) I see no reason unconnected with laws
which I hope have ceased to exist, unconnected with
Unhappy circumstances to which I do not like to
advert, but to which the Poor-law Commissioners of Ireland
have frequently referred—unconnected, I any, with those
circumstances, I see no reason why Ireland may nor, at a
future day, rise to a state of great prosperity. (Cheers.)
Mr, I will read a description of a country in which these
"via are said to have occurred:
The batman= lathiest Ma at their inne ar she, either by min
or fraud, or violent emernienem they be put WM it; or by wimp
and injurer they be me weaned OM they be to sell all. By
am means, thirds's. er by the Mho, either UM or by crook,
they miasmas amset my, pew, weinthed mah —men. women,
bushande, wives.
the iliMinn, widem wene mothers with
their !enmeshes, and the whine hoesebold, malt a norstame and
mark in umber; of leadmary legutreth many hands; away tee,
trudge, I my, out of it
losomand accuetomed home Muting no
Kittle rest In. AR their household stuff *hitt In veep
ittle worth,
It might well abide the sale—yet, being suddenly thrust out.
they le constrained to sell it for • thing of nought; and, when they
have wandered about till that b • spent, what can they then do bit
steal, and then, lu..tif, partly, he Wowed, or ear go about a-begging
Sir, that is a melte:wisely description, but a description not
unlike the stories of ejectment in Ireland, which tell of
wretched families' turned out and compelled to sell their little
all, and in a few days either driven to go about stealing, or
And to beg; and yet this description is a description ef
England—the England of his day--written by Sir Thomas
More. If this description may be supposed to be faeciful,
because it appears in a work of imagination. there are other
aecoonts written by megistrates in which the writers state,
that " in every county there are two or three hundred per.
sons who live by thieving, who go about stealing the sheep
and the cattle, so that no husbandman is secure, and no de-
fender is sufficient ; and that in one day no less than 70,000
of them were hanged." There is a description of this
country. in which we now enjoy so much secu-
rity; in which we now see an absence of the
licence which are described by the writers of that period
a proof that it is through the state of society, and not
through the nature of the country, that such misfortunes
aim. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I will read to you a description
of another country at a different period, namely, the end of
the seventeenth century:
There are at tine day in t:cotland (besides a great number of tarsi.
Sea very meanly provided for by the church hoses, with others who,
with living opon bad food, tall into various diatun'eC, 200,000 people
begging from dire to door. These are not only no • aye advanta-
geous, hut a very grieroua burden to so poor a country ; and though
the number of them be perhaps doubie to whatit was fortnerly by ream
of the present rest Mass, yet to all times there have been abnut
100,005 of these vagabonds who haw lived without say
_regerd urn*.
mission either tothe lawsof the land, or even those of God and nature,
hiker incestuously aotortipanvlne their own daughters, the son with
the mother, and the brother with the sister. No magistrate could ever
dinover or be informed which way any of these wretches died, or
that ever they were baptised. Many murders hen been discovered
among them; and they ore not only a most unspeakable oppression to
poor tenant. (who if they use not bread or: some sort of twonsion to
perhaps forty ouch villains In one day, arcaure to be insulted by-them),
but they rob many poor people who live In honed distant from soy
neighbourhood. In years of plenty, many tharande of them mee
together in the mountains, where they feast and riot for many dais;
and at country weddings, inerteta, burials. and other the like eagle
oemione thee are to be seen, both men and women, perpetually
dAmk, fleeing, bieurtiemlog, and Righting together.
Such I. the description given of sober, einlieed, religious
Scotland. (' Hese, hear," and cheers.) Such was that
Scotland at the end of the 17th century. (Hear, hear.) Sir,
shall we say that the particular laws and the peculiar state
of a country have no influence ? that a country which ha.
been without nrder, where robberies have been frequent and
industry hes been interrupted, mar not afterwards become
orderly, civilised, and religions ? (Hear, hear.) I think we
should be unworthy of our position as members of the
parliament of this country if we were to give way to despair
respecting Ireland. (Loud cheers.) I know, however, that
what I have said in relation to the social state of Ireland,
touching, as I have done, upon many important measurer, is
but a part of the case. (Hear, hear.) I am not one of those
who think that, apart from political questions, from political
right., and from other questions connected with political
institutions, a merely beneficent government can
make a country floarish. (Hear, hear.) It is my
opinion that other measures will be required—
(cheers); and when the proper time for propping
such measures artless, I shall be ready to undertake any-
thing which I think will be for the ultimate benefit of Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) But this, Sir. I feel with respect to
these and all other measurer, that there are things which the
Crown cannot grant, which Parliament cannot enact.
(Hear, hear.) There is a spirit of self-reliance. (Cheers.)
Intensity plainly that I should indeed despair of this task were
it not that I think I see amongst the inhabitants of Ireland
symptoms both of a grater reliance upon their own energies
and their own exertions, and of a greater willingness to co-
operate with others. (Hear, bear.) I believe that if they
will encourage thin spirit among themselves; if they will see
what has been done in this country, and in her neighbour
Scotland, by industry, by pereeveraisom by never despairing
of success; if they will go on, not looking always to a go-
vernrnent propotil, and to a parliamentary enactment--( hear);
if they will see what in the task immediately before them.
and set themselves heartily and ritrenuously to perform that
teak,—l believe that there are means, there ere resources in
Ireland, which will bring these matters to a happy Mire.
(Cheers.) There is no doubt of the fertility of the lead ;
that fertility has been the theme of admiration with writers
and travellbrs of all nations. There is no doubt, either, I
most say, of the strength and industryof its inhabitants.
(Hear, bear.) The Pll.llO man who is loitering id,y by the
mountain side in Tipperary or in Kerry, when potato plot has
just furnished him with occupation for a few days, whore
wages and whose pig have enabled him to pay his rent and
to sae out a miserable subsistence, has perhaps a brother in
Liverpool, in Glasgow, or in London, who, by the sweat of
his brow, from morning till night, is competing with the
strongest and the 'tauten labourers of England or of Scot- ,
land, and is earning wages equal to any of them. (Heer,
hear.) I do not think, therefore, that either the ferti ity
of the land, or the strength or industry of the
inhabitants, is at fault. There hare been faults;
there hue been defects. Ilappy will it be
for us if we lay the foundation for the cure of then defects;
happy will it be for the Irish themselves if they take for
their maxim " Help yourself, and then heaven will help
you," for then I trust they will Sad that there have been
some " uses " in "adversity. ' (Loud and general applause.)
In reply to a question,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the government would take
the rates whieh would be levied by the guardians of the
Mon to which they belonged, and that the guardians would
have the power of levying additional rates, To those rates
would be added the subeeriptioxe which might be received
from thi+ eountry and from Ireland.
In reply to a question from Mr. B. °angling,
The Nome Lotus said he had ant meant to imply that
the Marquis of Sligo and Mr. Moore, who were referred to
is bin speech, had not paid the it rates.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN enquired whether it were the inten-
tion of the government to make advances of money for the
?anon of westing railway undertaking'', and whether they
Wended to prelim a Tenants Compensation Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL, said the question of advances for
railways had leen for some time under consideration. There
were various objections to any such steps. and they hal been
"dead from various quarters that it would be un, ise to
sake general advances. The noble lord was understood to
d, that Sir John Burgeyne's attention was being called to
the subject. In reply to the other question, he stated that a
Teraina' Compensation Rill had been framed, and would be
Mtroluerd into the House of Lords when the Lord-Lieu-
tenant of Ireland wag meant.
In reply to a question from Lord Cneweerre,
Long J. RUSSELL mid that the minister for the °ninnies
had written a despatch to Canada its which he informed Lord
lgfe.i.n, that if proprietors or companies in Canada shook! be
'lilleft to construct villages or to provide hula for the la-
bourers employed on the railways, the government would be
*lee to odium money.
Mr. FRENCH said he had been told by a member of the

late government before these measures were introduced, that
they would be very distasteful to most In•h members, and
partacularly so to himself ; but he certainly was not prepared
. •

BELLI3-4.could not permit the occasion to pass
without expressing the extreme satisfaction he bad felt at
healing thalMeenh of the noble lord.
Mr. LEFROY asked if it all the intention of govern-
ment to send supplies of food to Ireland, and under what
regulations it was contemplated to afford assistance to pro-
pnetors heft the grant of 50,0001.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, with regard t 3 the first ques-
tion, that if test hoe. member meant to ask whether the go-
vernment intended to import foreign grain into Ireland, he
at once answered that it wen their intention to do nothing
of that sort. Importations of foreign grain, would, iu his
opinion, be better left to private enterprise. With regard
to the second inquiry, he would rather postpone his answer
for the present.
Lord LINCOLN entirely. concurring its the desire shown
to postpone any present discussion upon the noble lord's
statement, desind,neverthelese, to make ones? two inqui-
ries. First, with' regard to the advances to landlords, for the
improvements of their property. Wes it intended to put
any limit upon the advances to be so made, or would then be
to any, amount ? His second question .d no Immediate
refereuce to anything that had fallen from the noble lord,
but he felt the matter one of great importance. Ito alluded
to the anticipated increase of fever in Ireland. The late go-
vernment had parsed a bill called the fever act, under which
lower wax given to the lord-lieutenant of Ireland to consti-
tute • central board in Dublin, composed of medical men.
The late lord-lieutenant had constitutes' such a board, but
the present administration had abolished it. What he

wanted to ask was, if it was intended to reauacitata the
board? and another question to which he should be glad of
a reply was, when it woo intended to proceed with the mea-
sures announced by the noble lord, with a view to their
discarion ?

Lord J. RUSSELL—With respect to the first question,
the government proposed to separate the drainage acts of
last session into two distinct laws the one for Great Britain,
somewhat enlarging the powers now given under it, and the
other having special relation to Ireland ; the sum appro-
priated and, r the latter Oct was fixed, and its amount was one
million, but there would be no difficulty in coming to parla-
ment, if necessary, to authorise a further advance. With
revrd to the second question, there had been some practical
difikultiew respecting the Fever Art which his right hon.
friend the Secretary for Ireland could explain better than he
could. With respect to the last question, he did not know
that he could precisely fix a day for further discussion. The
papers he had alluded to in his speech would be ready to be
laid on the table of the hotter. by Wednesday next. It was
desirable that memhers should have time to consider them,
and perhaps he might fix Monday next for further pro-
ceeding.
Mr. LABOUCHERE, with respect to the Fever Act, said
that the reestablishment of the board instituted under that
act had been a subject of very anxious consideration with the
government. There had bees reason to think that there had
been great abuses ender that act, and some hesitation was
consequently felt in taking any measures for carrying it
further into effect. He did not know either that it was ab-
solutely necessary to do so. The guardians of poor-law
unions in Ireland had authority to attach fever hospitals to
the workhouses, and in any districts where fever prevailed
that authority had been taken advantage of. Under the
Cutaneous Dueness Act, also, local boards were established
which would deal with cases of this sort. The attention of
the government, however, had been anxiously given to the
subject, and whenever they felt that they could take advan-
tage of the provisions of the Fever Act with advantage, they
would not fail to do so. At present, Lowever, the experience
they had had of it had not been satisfactory. Such reports
had come in of fever in districts where it had n .ver existed,
and such grossly exaggerated statements had been made in '
civet where there seemed tot* a prospect of medical employ-
ment—(a laugh)—that the government really felt reluctant
to take advantage of the opportunities the euactmeat af-
forded them. Ile most add, too, that he believed many of
the deaths reported to have taken place from fever were cases
of death from that sort of dysentery which had no doubt
prevailed coneiderably.
Sir R. H. INGLIS thought it would be wrong if he let
pass the speech they hail heard from the noble lord, without
adding the expression of his cordial admiration of en oration
remarkable alike for the singular good taste of all that it
stated, and of all that it omitted. (Loud ministerial cheers )
The noble lord had been sustained by a very singular discre-
tion in advancing that only which was calculated to conci-
liate the confidence of both side. of the house. He entirely
agreed with him in the main principle he had advanoed,
that the property of Ireland ought ••• support the weer', of
that country.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON thought the government might
advantageously give money to small farmers to cultivate
their crops, and he begged to ask whether in the proposed
measures of assistance they had contemplated the adoption
of some such plan as that he referred to ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
the government did not propose to make any advances
which would enable proprietors to carry out whit ought to
be the ordinary cultivation of their estates.
Lord BERNARD said that the distress in the district of
Ireland with which he was connected was appalling. Ile had
received letters from Skibbereen stating that 2.5 persons were
daily dying from want.
Mr. GRATTAN comp:ained of the adjournment of the
debate on this most vital question. At all events, home-
dine steps ought to be taken for the transmission to Ireland
of ample supplies of food. The existence of so much ab-
seuteeism was a main cause of the distress of Ireland. If
the large landed proprietors who drew their thousands a
year from Ireland were to reside there, the case would be
very different If Ireland was to be rated for the relief of
the poor, he trusted that the absentee proprietor., the Vita-
wallows, the Buckinghams, the Headlorts, the (Innards,
and so on, would be mado to pay double rates. In
the title-deeds of estates granted to the Orevilles
by one of the Stuarts, the monarch, though a bitter enemy
to Ireland, insetted a clause that the estate should he for-
feited if the grantee did not reside six months a year in
Ireland, an excellent example to be followed. He called
upon the house to be active in meeting the wants of Ireland;
let them recollect that, while they were debating, the Irish
were starving.
Sir W. VERNER compleined of the manner in which
arms were openly sold in Ireland.
Mr. TUITE raid teat wherever, as the noble lewd had
mentioned, the sons of considerable farmers in Ireland had
been paid money out of the relief rate, the relief committee
guilty of such a perversion of their duty ought to be publicly
exposed. He regretted that there should be any delay in
the settlement of the present question.
Mr. HUME said that the project of government taking
up the waste lands would not answer. Government had
never meddled in money matters in Ireland without being
a great deal, and doing a great deal of mischief. If
property were divided into lots of 300 or 400 acres, they
would find that capital is Ireland would develops itself
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN did not wish to enter into a
discussion now of the merits of the proposals made by the
noble lord at the head of the government, but he desired to
record hie firm conviction, that what he bad said with
regard to the owners of land in Ireland was true in all its
parts, and to its full extent. (Hear, hear.) His opinion
was, that they were no more free from the errors of those
who had gone before them, than they were from the legal
enactments which had been pared before their time. Ho I
would also express his opinion the' the utmost exertions of
that house must fail, mikes those who owned land in
country.
Mr. 'ROEBUCK said, that it was not his wish to enter into
any discussion of the plan of the noble lord; but he could
not allow it to go forth to the world that the body of the
howe concurred in the view a:pressed in a certain portion of
his speech. If the noble lord would permit him, he would
express his great and unbounded admiration of the tone and
characteristic feeling expressed throughout the whole speech.
There was a feeling about itof kindness, commiseration, and
manliness that ought to characterise every statesman. But
he could not permit the world at liege to believe that the
noble lord would find it easy to carry out all the parts
his very elaborate scheme. It comprised three sepa-
rate parts. The first wet for the immediate palliation
of the great calamity. That point he would not
touch. The next had reference to the regeneration
of the Irish people, and the creation of a state of feeling
which would put them in a position which would not subject
them to a repetition of this hitherto periodical calamity. In
the end which the noble lord had in new he entirely con-
curred ; but he could not connect with that end the means
which be proposed for arriving at it, namely, by taking in
hand a portion of Irish property, and the concerns of Irish
landlords. It appeared to him that any means by which
money was to be taken from England to benefit the land-
lords of Ireland would be a great and mischievous error.
He had
that it was not afterwards considered as comparatively
given, instead of lent. Unfortunately he had seen a
great deal of money given as a loan to Ireland,
but it had never come beck. And the noble lord st that
moment told them that he intended giving 50,0001. with the
expectation of only one-half of it being given hack. That
was a proceeding to which he wished to refuse his sanction.
As to the next point, the necessity of imposing a new system
of poor law, he had only to my the thing was done, the blow
was struck, and the property of Ireland was henceforth
bound to maintain its poor. He hoped that the noble lord
would continua to unwired the same manliness which he
exhibited that night. He believed, however, that any
attempt to make this an agreeable measure to the
lenrlionla of Inland by taxing the Engll.l people
for their benefit would add to the noble lord's difficulty,
by raising oppositisn to a good measure, and not lenenine
the opposition which he may receive from the landlords of
Ireland. There was a great ebullition of public opinion in
country which the noble lord must consider even when
he legislated for the landlords of Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
before he answered the question which was put by the hen
gentleman opposite, he would take the opportunity of ex-
pressing the pleasure with which he heard the observptions
which he made. He could assure him, that neither he nor
his hoe. friend had any desire to cast any imputation on Ire-
land. The legislature must always know that in a cue like
this they have difficulties to contend with of no ordinary
nature. (Hear, bear.) The honourable gentleman
asked what wax to be the distinction between the
functions of relief committees, and those of boards of
guardians ? It was not intended to alter the functions of the
later. They were to be authorised to levy rates, and to
superintend the administration of the poor-law. Relief com-
mittees were to be formed in each electoral divis on. The
poor-law guardians of the unions were to be es officio morn-
' bile of them, and also the magistrates and lord-lieutenants
of each county, during the temporary duration of this pres-
sure. The rates would be levied by the boards of guardtnis,
and each money as would be required by the electoral din-
!sions would be advanced by them to the relief.
committees. (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to what fell I
tram the noble lord opposite, he had only to say that

there were in the west of Ireland for the last three or tour
weelsa tweaty-six food depots which were open during the
period& which the tralasactions he refer:red to o' earned. In
the county oeCork, Clare, and Leitrim they were estahlalied
in all directions. Belief was not suspended until the passing
of these hills. The government had sent about steamer.
with • lane supply of boilers for boiling seep, and there
were 500,000 quarters of corn in Dublin during the passing
of the late bill for the suspension of the 4.. duty.
Lord J. RU sSELL said that one bill was a bill which
rendered valid the proceedings which were stated in Mr.
Labouchert's letter, and he wi-hed to ask for a second
reading of that bill on M"nday.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that he altogether agreed
with the expression of the hon. member for Bath, as to the
tone and language of the noble lord's speech. Into the
measures themselves he would not now enter at any length.
But he bail not any fault to find with them that they
did too much, except inasmuch as regarded to the (em-
pulsory powera intended to apply to the sole of waste lands
in Ireland. If he found any fault with them, it was that
they fell far short of the necessity of the occasion. When
his noble friend spoke of 50,0001. to supply the wants of
Ireland with seed, he should recollect that it woo scarcely
sufficient tosow five baronies, It would sow about 25,000 acres
of oats or about 5,000 acre* of potato, a. In the present state of
matters, giving 50,0001. would be like doing nothing. Al
respected public works. he thought that his noble friend
would have brought forward some measure by which the
employment of English capital would be stimulated in
Ireland. (Here, hear.) There was one sphere open for the
employment of English capital, namely, the construction of
railways, and he did hope that his noble friend would come
forward with some well digested scheme to promote and
stimulate the construction of railways. He knew no other
scheme by which, on so short a notice, so many persona
might be brought into prodahle employment, and he begged
leave to state that, as f.r as regarded the promotion of
railways in Ireland, he was prepared to introduce
a measure, to which he hoped his noble friend would gine
the same consideration, end the =me chance of being
considered in parliament as they were willing to give to all
his lordship's measures. He did not propose to introduce it
as a measure in hostility, or even in rivalry to those of his
Roble friend, but as an auxiliary ts the measures proposed
by her Majesty's ministers. The hon. member for Bath de-
l:weeded the idea of fostering the Irish landlords in their
estates as a mischievous error. He dissented from him in
that respect, for he knew nothing that would be more advan-
tageous. There was the ease of Lord Dufferin, whose pro-
perty was made worth three thousand a year more than it
was originally, by an advance of 24.0001. England could
net separate herself from Ireland, and if they were enabled
by such advances to obtain a profit to the amount of ten per
cent., he saw nothing that would tend more to the
improvement of Ireland at large, than by continu-
ing such advance*. With respect to the altera-
tion in the poor-law, he thought that the house
must concur in that propoeition. He was not one of
those who thought that the best way to strengthen an
empire was to transport her beat men to a torrid. country.
Nose hut men of enterprise, the bone and sinew of Ireland,
would be got to leave that country. In respect to the faci-
lities given to the sale of estates and lengthening of the
period of leases, ha looked upon that step with great satis-
faction, but he regretted that his noble friend bad not
brought forward some great measure tor the promotion of
railways in Ireland. He was prepared with a bill for that
purpose, which he asked leave to bring in. Leave was
granted.
Leave was also granted to Lord John RUSSELL to bring in
his bills, which he said would not be ready for a first
reading before Friday.