The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-29 00:00:00

_
Mr. REYNOLDS supported the bill on the understanding
that it was to be on
temporary in its character. He oon-
curved fully in the censure which bad been passed on Mr.
Pratt's report.
Sir D. NORREYS inquired why Mr. Pratt's report bad
not been submitted to the savings bank committee ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
had been submitted to the committee.
Mr. HUME had attended four out of the nine sittings of
the committee, and had heard nothing of the report.
Mr. lIERBERT also denied having seen the report.
Mr. G. CRAIG said that he had seen the report, and it
had excited much of his attention.
Mr. KEOGH trusted that the bill would he postponed to
• future session. The house had not had sufficient time for
the consideration of so important a measure.
Mr. BRO ritERTON deprecated such discussons as cal-
culated to create • great deal of unnecessary alarm. Ile was
oonnetted with ORO of the largest savings banks in the king-
dom, and considered the liability of the trustees quite suf-
ficient.
Col. THO?dPSON was much surprised to hear that 'livings
banks could become insolvent. Ho had always understood
that their etcurity was as good as that of the government. If
not so, government should make it so atouce by ...ndertaking
the liabilit
After somy. e further coeversation the bill was read a second
time.
The house adjourned at a quarter to 3 till 5 o'clock.
The house resumed at 5 o'clock.
CHELTENHAM ELECTION.
On the motion of Mr. roomy it was ordered " That
Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the clerk of the crown
in
to
make out a new writ fur the elecing of a burgesa to serve
this present parliament for the borough of Cheltenham, in
the room of the Hon. Craven Berkeley, whose election has
been determined to be void."
OCEAN MONARCH.
Mr. HUME said that his remarks on Saturday with
relation to the loss of the Ocean Moivrch, had cast what he
then considered a merited reflection on the captain of
he Cambria steamer. He had sines had an inter
view with the hon. member for Anglesey, who had
put it to his hands a letter from the captain of that
steamer, which entirely cleared him from any ioipu-
tenon upon his humanity or his eourege. t Hear, hear.)
It appeared that at the time this officer first saw the
Ocean Monarch in fl imes, he Was on hi . way to Liver.
pool with 200 passengers and a large quantity of cattle, and
that having only just sufficient coals to enable him to get into
p-rt, he could not have put back to the Ocean Monarch,
then distant from him twelve miles, without narrowly en-
dangering the safety of his owe steamer upon that dangerous
coast, and he therefore went on hie way, the less reluctantly
that be saw three ships making towar.'a the burning vessel.
The hon. gentlemaa repeated his question of Saturday whe-
ther the Board of Trade iotend_d to make any inquiry
into the circumstances attending this lamentable catastrophe ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the Board of Trade was
only empowered to ineestigate the circumstances attending
the loss of British steamers. As the unfortunate Ocean
Monarch was an American sailing skip, the Board of Trade
had no jurisdiction in the case.
Mr. HUME observed that had such an accident happened
on the coast of the Baltic. or indeed up almost any
foreign shore, an inquiry would have been made by the local
government.
Mr. lIA.WES begged to inform the hon. gentleman, that
on Saturday one of the emigration commissioners had been
d.spatchea to Liverpool, to render all the assistance in his
power tithe survivors. towards which object lie had taken
with him 2001. out of the funds in the hands of the. commis-
sioners. (Hear, hear.) Arrangements; had lien made to
transmit these unfortunate persons as speedily as possible to
their destination. (Hear, hear.) He regretted to add that
while the loss of life had been so great on the occasion, the
lOU of property also had been very heavy, indeed reaching
to no leas an amount. he I),lieved.than 20,0001.
SLIGO ELECTION.
The SPEAKER informed the house that the recognitanceo
entered into for prosecuting the petition against the late re-
turn for Sligo were unexceptionable.
SPIRIT DEALERS BILL.
On the motion that the house go into committee on this

Cap,. PEC HELL compmi .ed of the delays which had
protrr-• 'd this bill to so late a period of the session, and of
the determination now evinced recklessly to urge it forward
without a due care of the important interests concerned.
Tr, CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the delay had been occasioned precisely by the desire, ex
pre. s d from time to time, to suggest alterations in the pro-
visiors of the measure, and to the desire on the part of the
gov-rtment to give every &tuition to these suggestions.
Mr. MAcomiloott and Mr. BERNAL testified to the at-
tention they hid, on the part of deputations of spirit deal-
ers. esperienced at the hand. of the right hon. gentleman.
Ti.'. house then went into committee on the bill.
PECHELL denied that the delay had arisen from
any narrations made in the ha: on behalf of the spirit
dea:ers, and again complained of the state of suspense in
which the trade had been so long kept.
Clause 25 was then read, whereby a penalty of 251. is im-
poses on any person found carrying one gallon of spirits
without a permit, and authorising a policeman to apprehend
and carry before a magistrate any one so offenling, and on
conviction imposing the above tine or ail months' imprison-
ment with hard labour.
Mr. HUME objected to the creation of so many thousand
excise officers as the present clause called into existence.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that the penalty or the alter-
native confinement was intoleralne and ought to be reduced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed
his willingness to reduce ;he penalty to 101., with three
months imprisonment.
Mr. HUME moved that the penalty be fixed at 1001. with
liberty to the magistrate to reduce it according so his dis-
cretion.
The committee divided—For the original clause 51
For the amendment .. 33-18
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed
that the minimum penalty of 101. oe imposed on each con-
viction.
Mr. HUME moved that the justice be empowered to miti-
gate the penalty to any amount at his discretion.
Mr. HENLEY maid that the system of minimum penalties
was a very had une, sot ought t, be abolished. Magistrates
ought t. have a discretionary power of mitigating penalties.
He entirely agreed with toe hon. member to: Montrose that
it was a monstrous thing to create en many thousand excise
officers out of a class of persons certainly not qualified to ex
ercise the duties of excise officers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
amendment now proposed bad teen already decided on by
the previous division.
The committee divided—For the original clause 56
For the amendment . 31-25
Mr. HUME would retain the maximum of punishment,
but thought the minimum should be sun* out. There
migh, be cues in which the magistrates would wish to dim.
pease with punishment altogether.
Mr. HENLEY was of a simiou opinion.
Mr. FORBES moved that as ... minimum " one hour " be

inserted.
The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took
place. On our return we found that the clause had
been agreed to.
The remaining clauses w,re agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.
BRITISH SPIRITS WAREHOUSING BILL.
On the order of the dory tor the committee on this bill,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL., iti:ttie absence of Mr. Moffatt,
nr,v il as au instruci in 1., :tie committee, " That they have
pow,r to extend the proVIRIO:111 of the bill, so tar as to apply
to spirits distilled in the Uniren. Kingdom, the privileges At
present enjoyed by the Owners (01 foreign and co.onial spirit.,
in r-spect . f the mode and time of levying the dutiescharge-
able thereon." His object wis to give to the British distiller
the same indulgence as was enjoyed by the foreign and
colonial producer. When the privilege of paying duty out
of bond was being granted to the latter it was ascertained
that of 3.50 gallons of foreign brandy bonded, only 29'J remain
ed on being taken out at bond at the expiration of tire years.
From that calculation the house might guess what ware the
loas, suffired by the Briish distillers under tha present
system. (Hear, hear.) Toe right hon. ge
ntlemannte the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, when asked con-
cede this boon, nail refused, on the ground that
ths British distiller had equivalent advantages in
the i seise regalationa. Thin was vrange doctrine that excise
regulations were an advantage to the dealer. Sir R. Feel
thougnt differently, ter, •on removing the glass duties, he
considered the advantage of treeing the trade trout restrih
ti sari greater than the amount of duty repealed. The only
feasible ground on which the alteration was opposed was
that it could be imp i.sible to prevent fraud in the passage
01 Ili. spirits from tilt worm s mouth to toe Iraided win,
bout' but the chairme b.if i •,f cx :iill and ruitorne hid
gm o their opinion that :,,c,,r se urity might bo taken
,irai,..,t freed. One otter ground nn wait, he wised the
ugh' lien. gentleman to accede to his propsition was that
the c Timmer would be much benefited by the alteration.
At present the interest of the distiller was to get his spirits
into c snsumption as anon as possible, whereas, if allowed to
pay duty out of bond be could allow it to remain and acquire
that purity which was only attainable by age.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
Was not he who attached any value, as regarded the distiller,
to excise regulations, but his predecessor in office. With
regard to the motion, his hon. friend, in proposing it, sought
to put the excise regulations on the same tooting as the CUS-
tom , while the fact was tha; they were essentially different.
With regard to the customs, the policy of this country had
always been to encourage in every way the importation of
foreign goods in transitu, so as to make our warehouses as far
as possible a depot for the rest of Europe. la the case of the I ,
excise a precisely contrary principle was in operation. The ,
duty was levied on articles of home manufacture and for , 1
home consumption, and the great object was to levy the duty
at the earliest possible period. no as to relieve the trade from
all restrictions as soon as possible. The boon had been asked
before and had been refused on the opinion of two eminent
distillers, who had declared that if it were conceded the
prevention of fraud would be impossible. On these grounds
he felt bound to resist the motion of his hon. friend.
The maximum lose to the revenue, were the duty collected
as proposed by the hon. gentleman's motion, might be as
much as 118,0001. in a year. 'this was a love which he could
not risk. (Hear, bear.) With regard too the advantage to
the consumer in enabling him to consume old instead of new
spirits, it was only just, if a better article were given, that
a higher duty should be paid. In every other respect but
the period of levying the duty the bill was from one end to
the other a bill of relaxation, and a removal of restrictions
from the British distillers, by allowing the full amount of
duty as draw.oick, the sweetening and flavouring in the
warehouse, the transfer of spirits in bond, and giving other
facilities which heretofore had not existed.
Mr. MONSELL admitted that the relaxations which this
bill would effect were important, and that they had, given
great satisfaction, especially in Ireland ; but the question
was whether the arrangement. which had been made We