The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-14 00:00:00

1/?!..NIIiG,.3.WARCIA 14. 1849..

.
ornate diet thin date/tea
1:124111111Aospr beest remeedit. gelfilo • eleistitst
co• fell as was k its preempt . mewl.
_settled.
Ail the matter .iltied. after the ' . tinsifinftifts be blooms,
slabld gins— err the result le •w •'
be 'lad -'acre
was this, that either the fabric' of Omni must be
maintained by funds derived fon& ea I, whisk
-Welt Wooly practicable le the *awed musespeet nasal
sindioli-geoparey itself, At the steep sus nark es It en et
W some It eassesat egifteista sad Wit Immolbersior and
Isatilltier, seta Use meallinetthe amok elottelves, for
their own sake, cossetted to melanin disk MI *grebes,
ft, k all wreak es anew the rate for that pewee le be a
Mary rate. (Hear, hear.) Already this was dlegmition '
the question assumed ft many pyrislase. In dm petite
of Masekewer, far example. a very large perish. •
oompulsory ram; had not 'been levied for Duey years ; the
fabric of eke church bad been supported altegetber by 'oleo-
easy contribution • yet the eburch of Manakestor—tbe Ca-
thedral, he should rather say—was now in, to say the least,
as good a °Dakhla+ u when the rate was compulsory.
(Hear, beer.) In Rochdale. main, the eltureltwourdens
spent, some yea" ago, 7001. or 8001, • year of chunk rates, no
sae haw bow, but it was rnmeund that much of
the money went in jovial Seism ; after a wtsik, by
Met et "loser supervision this 7001. or 8001. was redacted to
Mlll., and this eight to 2001., and 1840 saw the last contest
isr demob rates that ever disgraced the borough and in-
land the cause of ehristianity throughout that district. (Hear,
hear.) A disgressfid sesee, indeed, it was. Mote than
12,000 votes were given ou the occasion. Bight or ten
rains of country around were in a state of excitement never
approached by that of any p.rliamentary election that
he had ever wietessed ha It, Previous to the clam of the
poll the streets were crowded with thousands of
Cand the view: and the magistrate celled out
lhsi esoge. The vices had kept the poll open, seder some
posiest or other, longer than the time at first announced ;
the dimetioat was doubled by this proceeding, and after the
dim st the proceedings the vicar was to be seen, es be passed
Wthe town, surrounded and followed by 8,000 or
et than whom the law called his flock, hissing and
besting him, in &manner that must have been distressing, age-
mis aM esi one who had the slightest care for the church or
for C . (Hear, bear.) This was a seenesrbieb, with
ordain Menaces, according to circumstances, had been
acted ia many parishes throughout the country, end would
le mead in many more, unless, sad until, the system was
obannol. (Hear, hear.) It was not long ago that a wasp
was pursued for church rates by the churchwardens is the
town of Cambridge. They did not distrain on him, bat
bunted him into the ecclesiastical court; and, finally, ins-
pinned him, on the ground of contempt of court ; and he
was only liberated by the intervention of the Secretary of
State. And in this city a piece of worship, belonging to a
body of diameter', is almost annually stripped of its hurl-
tare—chairs, tables, and forms are taken away by the agents
of the law acting in the collection of rates on behalf of
the established church. It was with no hostile feeling to
the larch as a religious body that he would ask the house to
.snider this question as more important than it might
seem from the rather brief discussion upon it that had
taken place on the present occasion. He would ear-
nestly de.jre to impress upon the house his sincere
conviction, that, never since Christianity began, had there
been a ME, or set of men, able enough or wicked er ough
to do that injury to Christianity which was done to it by the
system which be now soothe to put an end to. (Rear, hear.)
He was persuaded that, wherever them abuses existed—
wherever a disregard far religion—ea indifference, not
to say a coot mpt, for Christianity existed—this feel-
ing derived strong argument from the conduct of those
who, professing and c.elli ,g themselves Christians, put
as arbitrary law in force as the means of forcing the
consciences and despoiling the property of their fellow-
Christians.
(Hear, hear.) It was from no desire to
et iumph over the church, or pecuniarily to relieve the
dissent n from anything they could in justice be called upon
to pay, that he sass d to have this question settled en •
just and amicable basis, bat because he believed that for the
well-being of the country there could be nothing worse
than the divisions and hostilities and bitten...4os which
arose from religions bickering., and believing further, as he
did, that there was • largo portion of the people who judged
Christianity much more by the acts of those who
prof seed it, than from the principle, whirl were laid down
in the Book whams. was drawn the knowledge of it (Rear,
hear.) It was gedeselyelear that all attempts to Christianize
them, to elevate Shea 'morally or religiously, were counter
acted to an alarming degree by such Kenos as those to which
he had adverted. (Hear, hear.) He should give his
vote in favour ef the motion of the honourable
memos r for Twits*, beesees he considered it desirable
that the home should express an unequivocal opinion
on the MOW He would only add that be was not ono
of those who dotted that the fabrics of the church should
go to decay ; all he meant to say was, that he believed the
property of the church itself was fully sufficient to meet the
charge, and that he considered the church should meet it.
(Hear, bear.)

Sir R. PEEL usid the hon. gentleman had justly ob-
served, that the dismission on this most important subject
had hitherto proceeded in a spirit of great moderation, with
an evident desire to consider it maturely in all its bear-
ings. The very spirit so evinced rendered it ad-
ditionally desirable that the house should not allow itself
to be hurried into the adoption of a mere resolution. The
resolution which they were asked to Mitres, was in point of
fact, a condemnation of the law as to church rates, but
surety the hones ought not to deal with as nemeliested and
difficult a matter as this by resolutioo. (Hear, hear.) The
Brat, the second reading eta bill, did not commit the house
1 to its ultimate acceptance, but the affirmation of a resolution
placed the house in • position whence it could not recede,
without exposing itself to the clear imputation of flagrant
inconsistengi(Hear, hear.) Suppose the resolution
adopted, most at once proceed to the Introduc-
tion of • Suppose that bill rejected, in what a
position woull the conatry be 'plated as regarded church
rates. (Hear.) As yet no distinct proposition had been
I made as to a substitution for the church rate proposed to be
abolished; true, various Fleets had been suggested, but
the very Rumber and vagueness of these suggestions should
operate as • warnings to the house not to commit themselves
on the present seem. (Hear, bear.) As to the proposi-
tion of the hon. and learned member for Oxford,
he amid not conceive a greater evil than to lay
down the proposition that persons calling themselves
dissenters might exempt themselves, rot from a religious
feeling, but merely to escape a small payment. (Hear, hear.)
Ms years sines it was proposed by Lord Allhorp to repeal
church rates, and to transfer the burden to the Consolidated
Fund, perhaps the most obvious alternative ; but, looking at
the opposition to the payment as • question of religious
scruple, it appeared very clear, that the feeling would
be infinitely 'shagged by a transference of the charge
to the Consolidated Fund. (lieu, hear.) In the country
districts the mere would most assuredly be so, the main
burden of the payment being there sustained by the laltied
gentry, the large proportion of whom were members of the
church. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that if this reso-
lution wets adopt( d, and any person professing to be a dis-
senter were to be exempt from the payment of this recognised
obligation, there would next week be a demand set up for
exemption from tithes on the same grounds. In what state
would they leave the law if they adopted this resolution
They would have condemned the law, and not have founded
any law in its stead—(hear)—and would have given to the
agitation against church rates • redoubled excitement.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentlemen opposite sugges•ed that
the church property itself, if improved as it might be, was
fully adequate to the payment of church rates; but the
hon. gentleman did not take into consideration the large
demands made on the church by tenon of the present im-
perfect parochial system, the increase of the population, and
the daily rising demand le all directions for extended
spiritual Instruction. (Hear.) Improve the value of church
property as you might, these demands would more then ab-
sorb the whole result. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir R. Peel) wu
not one of those who opposed the redistribution of the re-
venues of the church; he had given prooh to the contrary in
his proposal to apply the revenues of sinecures in the church,
and otner ecelastioel funds, to the extension of livings,
and the improvement of livings already created. But, still,
he would express the hope that the gentlemen of England
would never congest to relieve themselves from a burden to
which they were properly subject, in order to transfer the
burden to other shoulders. (Hear, hear.) He would en-
treat the house to reserve the matter for more mature Donal-
&ratios.
After a few words from Mr. 0/115011N1,
Mr. GLADSTONE concurred with his right hon. friend
in hoping that the house would not cane to a precipitate
decision on this Met important question. A mere abstract
resolution, eves ff adopted, could toot at all really expedite
the settlement of the matter. That the question should be
settled, no man more anxiousl desired than himself. Vier,
hem.) He thought the evils attending the system enor-
mous—(huse, hear)—he coasiderad that we certainly had
deviated in pentelos extzessaly from the original principle
and inteation of the law—(hear, hear)—the original inten-
tion of the law was not to impose a mere uncompensated
burden upon any man, but • burden for which every man
bearing it should receive a benefit, so that while each
member of the community war found to contribute
his quota to the church, every member of the church'
was entitled to go to the el urchwarden, and demand a free
place wherein to worship his Maker, in the house of that
Maker. (Hear, hear.) When be sonsidered4sorthabre.contrark
how all the valuable, in other words all the
churches was moesopolised by pews, the property of theWher
and middles classes, and which added la a• way whatever to
the use of the community at large. end the mods* dames,
who found themselves excluded from all AMEN at Peke or
bearing, who, in fact, when called to the ohne& of thtir God
found themselves exposed there to social degradation which
they underwent nowhere else—(hear, hear)—when he
reflected upon these things, he moot awenedly felt that the
whole subject was is a most unsatisfactory emsdition—(hear,
I hear)—and that of consequent* it bekoreall parliament to
I give deep attention to any proposition that should seem to
I afford • protect of • just settlement. While, therefore, he
r opposed the motion before him in its present form of a rem-
. lotion, be should not have thought himself entitled to
reject it had it come before him in the shape of •
t bill, for he should have been willing at all events to
encourage an onward step to that settlement of the
question e hich he deemed it so essential to attain.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the hon. member for Mid-
; dlesex had given very unsatisfactory reasons why the house
I should anent to the preseat resolution, when he stated that
• It had pursued a similar course last year by 'peeing to an
abstract resolution in favour of the ballot, because if a bill
I for instituting the ballot was to be introduced, it would moat
I probably be found that whilst the resolution of the house
I was in favour of the abstract principle, the sense of the house
would be decidedly opposed to carrying it into
r practise. He could not, therefore, agree to the
I resolution of the hon. member for Tavistock on
I those grounds, or indeed on at y other. It the house was
I prepared to pass • bill far tie immediate and total aboll'ion
I of Church rates, it could do so without having recourse to

theapireliminary step et agreeing to • aseolatim, and tbere-
feeak was a usable el -tee iseportariee to agree is it. He
lipid& au% haws e. believe that it would ire expedient ce
'impel le sheikh Mink rates and to make no other pant-
ekes for those wenn for which they were raised. He
flail* Weed he all the objections that had been urged against
church red, end he was ready to join in ally pan by which
they am* be Mee away with conektenty with justice and
qui pregemaglim of churches. The remedy proposed by
Lord Alas*, rfeh wasio charge the church raise upon the
goesolidstsdlegal, would has probably provided • remedy
for sush emit es that *Medea to by the hon. member for
Manciageber, where a clergyman bad been hooted by 10,000
of his puiehiners at a polliag about a cattiest for church-
rates. But another seams of dimension would have sprung
out of Lard ditherers proposed remedy, namely, es to
whether chunk rates could ghtly he charged upon the con-
solidated fund so that it was on the whold coaddered to be
t ' •
not worth tate to get rid of one objection by raising another.
Then there woe the plan suggested for *riding church
rates oat of the funds ef the church exclusively.
But they were required for purposes of a spiritual character.
He quite agreed with the right Pon. gentleman, the member
foe Oxford university, with respect to the lamentable fact
that in the town churches the chief places were oecupled by
the wealthier dsesse,pothe exc'usion'ot the poorer people, sad
that those alone who were respectably, not to my finely,
dressed, monopolised all the pews. But this was an evil not
to be remedied by abolishing church rates. Agreeing gene-
rally in the proposition that it was desirable to find other
means for defraying the expense of repairing churches, he
must say that he could not went to the resolution of the hon.
member. The hon. member for Montrose had stated that
it was a abase the church rates should be exacted from dis-
solvers. He (Lard 3. Russell) did not so consider the
matter. In the first place, there Wag no shame in levying
chunk rates on dissenters who bought lends, because they
bought them subject to that charge, and it has a.lowed for
in the price. In the sec and place, if diaentme were only
occupiers of land, they wry rigidly calculated the burdens
to which the land was subject in the shape of poor rates,
highway rates, tithes, and church rates, and regulated the
rent they paid accordingly. Therefore, there was no
ju.tice in these complaints. Neither did he think
that the church establishment wee for the exclusive
benefit of
.Charth of England men. (Loud cheers.) The
justificatioa of church rates rested on the fact that the
church rate was a greit tribute paid as a homage to religion
—(loud cheers)—and society would not only not be improved
by the abolition of the church, but would be degraded
thereby. The same reasons that were urged for abolishing
church rates would be equally valid for doing away with
tithes. In fact, he did not see where a stand could be made
upon the principle of abolishing church rates if that were
agreed to. The argument that church rates were not
justifiable contained more then at first sight ap-
peared in it. If any substitute for them were
' proposed, he for one would not object to give it his beet con-
sideration. He did not hope to find en effectual one in the
proposal of the hon. member for the city of Oxford, and be
had alto ady opposed a similar one when brought forward by
the hon. member for Finsbury. On the present occasion he
°nosed the resolution upon principle, and also because it
would, if affirmed, lead to consequences which the house
would never consent to sanction.

Mr. G. THOMPSON told the noble lord, after the dis-
couraging speech which he had delivered, that the dissenters
would bide their time, and watch for the opportunity which
the government could not or would not make for relieving
the church of England from the reproach of perpetuating so
great a scandal as exacting rates from persons not belonging
to that eatsbithment. _ _

Mr. HENLEY said that one of the arguments by whisk
the revelation bad been defended was manifestly a wrong
one. It had been attempted to be shown that the resolution
was brought forward on the strength of former decisions of
the house, which decisions bad been come to upon entirely
diff,not grounds. As long as the question of church rates
was unsettled, the people had a right to dispute their pay-
ment. But the people were naturally inclined to obey
the law as soon as any great question was settled
by the law's decision ; and their refusal to pay
church rates only lasted until the judges bad decided,
in the slating of legislative interference, that church
rat a were legally demandable. The strong opinions which
had been expreese i on the subject of church rates by the
hon. member for Tamworth and others only had reference
te the state of things previous to the decision of the courts
es to the liability of all occupier' to pay those rates, and
that decision being solemnly declared, the eyes of the people
became at once opened to the necessity of paying them. He
thankod the noble lord opposite for lus manly declaration of
that might—(cheers from the opposition)—and he add not
but contrast the views entertained by the noble lord
on the subject of church pews with those of the right hon.
member for the Oxford university. Why, ha would ask,
were the scruples of conscience of the dissenters as to church
rates to be exclusively listened to ? There were other equally
sera us scruples of conscience on the subject of war, and was
the house to pass an abstract resolution condemning war, or
were those who opposed war to be relieved from contributing
towards the support of the army and navy ? He could not
separate the dissenters from any other elan of the people.
There was an impost existing from time immemorial,
founded on the common law of the land, and destined to
defray the expenses of repairing churches. On the other
hand was a set of individuals who had sprung up within the
last 250 years, and who now claimed exemption from that
impost on the ground of their reluctant* to pay it from
conscientious motives. Such he feared was the elasticity of
censc'enee and so au or Obis was it of enlargement, that if
exemption from the payment of church rates was given to
all classes the churches would not be repaired, for no ono
would pay the rates. The dissenters never endeavoured to dud
lands or houses unincumbensi with payments for church
lutes. That was an obj-ction never yet heard from a dissenter
in leasing or buying lands or houses. The fact was that the
entaples of conscience as to church rates were more an allega-
tion than a reality. Again he begged to thank the noble lord
egresite for his manly speech, and the declaration which sic-
semnaand it.
Ile. COBDEN—Sir, the hon. member who has just sat
down has expressed an opinion respecting the people of the
church of England which I trust will be found not to apply
to them, or to have any foundation. The hon. member boa
told the horse, that if for conscience sake we permit the
people at large to exempt themselves from the necessity of
Paying church-rates, the churches will never be repaired, for
no one would ever consent to pay the rates. (No, no.) I
think the hon. member said, that such was the elasticity of
the people's conscience, that if they were exempted from
paying church-rata the churches would never be re-
paired, because no one would ever pay the rater. (Hear.)
I therefore repeat that I do hope the hon. member has mis-
represented the great body of church of England men who
are in this country. The hon. member began his speech by
thanking the noble lord the prime minister for the declara-
tion contained in his speech, and he ended his speech by
again thanking the noble lord. If that noble lord has pleased
the hon. member and his friends on the other side of the house
threspett to this resolution,he must be prepared toplease them
in many other measures. But I warn him that he will by
so doing lose many of his friends on this aide of the house.
(Hear.) The hon. member opposite argued the question as
if the scruples of conscience which had formerly existed rela-
tive to church rates had been quieted as soon as it was found
that the hw had declared that the rate was legally
demandable. But the hon. member was wrong in
his deductions from the state of the law. It
was true that the rate was absolute'y levied,• and
mild not under the law be refused to be levied;
but the majority of the parishioner declared what the
amount of the church rate should be. There was a case in
point eccurred some time ago at Rochdale, where according
to the law it was indispensable that a church rate should be
made. It was proposed that it Would be one farthing in the
pound. But so strong was the coascientious objection to the
principle of a church rate, that out of some hundreds of men
who filled the church not twelve could be found who

would hold up their hands for the farthing rate, and there
was some danger that it would not be carried until the
amine exclaimed, " Now, all you who are for a farthing
rate, which you will never have to pay, signify the same by
holding up your hands." The consequence was that the rate
was carried, but it was never paid, the expence being more
than the proceeds. The question is entirely one ofpounds, shil-
lings, and penee.But it had been made to appear in a very differ-
ent light, and I shall noticed this over without reminding the
hon. member for Buckinghamshire that the church-rates
are an ancient charge upon the land, and that they are
not a local tax from which the land can claim ex
I empti n. I don't deny that this is an ancient heathen,
I nor do I put it upon the footing of tithes, weak are
a charge upon property. But it is a very different thing
to relieve occupiers from the payment of church-rates and
' to impose them on the consolidated fund, and to remit the
payment of those rates to the dissenters, on the ground of
their conscientious scruples. Church rates are only levied
for the support of the church wherein the Christian religion
is taught to the people. The dissenters' statement is that
they, being likewise Christians, professing, as they believe, a
purer term of faith than the church of England, main-
tain their own places of worship, and claim upon that
ground exemption from contributing to the planes of worship
of others. All the dissenters asked was that they should not
be compelled to pay two rates—not their own rates and your
rates too. (Hear, hear.) The great difficulty in the matter
has been to find a substitute for this impost, end the
noble lord on the treasury bench has said that if any
such ts proposed it skill have his best consideration.
But the hon. and learned member for Oxford city has
done what the noble lord desired, and I think his plan is not
only a eonsistent but a just one. (Hear.) He proposes to
exempt dissenters from the payment of church rates, and to
leave It entirely to the churchmen to pay their own rates.
I aa a churchman constantly pay those rates. (Hear.) In
the manufacturing districts, the voluntary churches abound.
There are In Manchester forty voluntary churches to one of
the established church, and notwith.tanding this no diffi-
culty is experienced in procuring funds for their support and
repair. When men frequent a church they willingly contri-
bute to its support. The hon. member for Oxford said very
truly that if there was not religion enough amongst
the churchmen to induce them to support their own
churches, a sense of honour and of pride would
prevent them from allowing them to fall into de-
cay whilst dissenters' churches were so well supported.
and they would be ashamed to see dissenting chapels well
maintained and thronged with congregations earnest enough
to maintain the fabric of their places of worship, whilst
their own churches were gang to decay. (Cheer) Sir, I
repudiate toe sentiment altogether; I think there fano dan-
ger whatever of churchmen shrinking from tit-it duty of
supporting their own places of worship. I believe, if you
will put these church rates on the voluutsry principle your
churches will be as well supported as they are new. (Hear,
hear.) I do not believe in that low, boas sentiment which the
hon. gentleman attributes to the members of the Church of
England, that they would pass themselves off for dissenters,
that they would play the hypocrite to escape this paltry tax.
(Cheers.) . I do not suspect the world art much practical
hypocrisy at all : men generally are i i earne,t in matters of
religion. At any rate, if they be hypocrites, they in general

take their wares to a better market than the Lea Y -
the pitiful amount of the ohareh rate. T ono auto
my itds will support the original motion, I, being a chum&
man, and anxious to show my desire to prevent disinters
paying the rates of the church to which I hekng, shall have
moshosleasurs in supporting the amendment of my him )dleers friend, the member fur the city of Oztord.
The house then divided. The numbers were—
For the original motion
Against it
The house again divided immediately, when the mambo
MVO—

For the amendment B4
Against it
The Original motion and the amendment coastline),
both fall to the ennead.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS—THE ADJOURNED
DEBATE.
On our return to the gallery, we found
Lord J. RUSSELL on his legs, urging the hose. land*
for Buckinghamshire to arrange for the conclusion of the
debate on agricultural distress on There thy evening.
Mr. DISRAELI said if the debate commenced teentenon
(this day) and had precedence on Thursday, no dawn,
might be concluded upon Thursday evening.
Mr. E WART said he could not consent to put off his ass•
eke. with respect to the public libraries' which stood fins
ter Thursday. He promised, however, that his statement
should be as brief as possible.
Mr. DISRAELI said, to cut the matter short, the ed.
joarned debate would, at any rate, commence to-sorrow (this
I day).
CLOSING THE DOORS BETWEEN DIVISIONS.
Mr. BOUVERIE said the house would no doubt recollect
that, in the course of last session, he had called their atton
fine to the practice of keeping the doors closed between two
divisions—a practice contrary, certainly, to all principle; be,
cause it might well be that a member might wish to take
part in one division and not is the other. (Dm.
ham) Upon the examine to which he referred lan
session, the Speaker called the inejeant to the bar of the
house, and desired that the door should be kept opened
between divisions. The same thing had 'courted this ens.
ing. Ilitatelf hied several hon. members were present
at
the time the first division closed, and he submitted thst the
officer should have proceeded directly to open the dune
(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER said certainly the door should hen been
opened atter members returned from the first dinette. A
very small interval, however, had elapsed between the doss
of the first division and the commencement of the second,
end it was possible that the officer at 'he outer e.ooe mien
not have been aware that the first division had terminated.
(Hear, hear.)
The matter then dropped.
SMALL DEBTS (IRELAND).
On the motion of Mr. W. FAGAN, leave was givers to
bring in a bill to prevent actions in the superior mark in
Ireland, where the debt did not cereal 20' , and to improve
the measures for the reciwery of debts.
ILLEGAL ORDINANCES. —VAN DIEMEN'S LAND,
Mr. ANSTEY rose to move an address to her Majedyea
the subject of certain illegal ordinances or acts of council for
the taxation of the people of Van Dieme.i's Lend, the
attempts of Lieut.-G wernor Sir William Denis:a to intistie
date the judges of the Supreme Court of that island into de.
cluing inch erdinanci s or acts to be legal, and the grim
emcee complained of by the colonists of that island in deck
' pe ition presented I ,st year to her Majesty, and printed by
order of this house ; and that her Majesty may be please:lb
direct the hod authorities in future to respect the inde.
peuder.ca of the judicial functins cf that court, and also be
signify her disallowance of any ordinance or act subs( comely
r passed by the said lieutenant-governor in council, lot giving
' to such illegal ordinances or acts the force of law. The
bon. member was proceeding to detail the penicillin of the
case when an hon. member moved that the house be coasted
' and only 38 members being present, the home adjourned et
20 minutes past 11 o'clock.