The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-03 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY

the crommitatiezzalieg las Lat..
coed to laZile. igiriTINOS• 411•00111•111
seated lewithdrak dat if the' should afestlia,
detains :lir: Mane • masks, '
1•40•118. Seel =Eike 0141
home, b. the balsa I ph
not, however, intead at the moat thus to
skin es the sabjest of the maziama rate. I maligleswPraft
wait for baker widens bin the
it la dedadly the opin a the
the le. end 2a. be the prams tor na, who?
titer the twit of klieg the-krat east kil-
ling be thalweg expedient lam et mot —that tract
skometesete of Inlaid a nuadmia rate k sad 1
ihre by adeptket it we Wok best 1111111blas with the se '
destkusin mesenageseentaisdreary nerd die pmenales
Oda iradvatin sit. Iwm reseed to atm
alterations whisk the government bad in
wk.* I have not asked the opiales of he
AWL 'I eves; at a More period, M Waal
haus One of dime attention ft that where Ikea bait
bees apieultaral impenemente, there should, not be
for a mad* amber of yeses any lesmaied valua-
tion at moan ot the.. imprenmeata (Hear, Mar.)
Marker the teem be seven or tai or for a
leaptopi peeled, I
sh ould is a past
think ea whink
awe le mask dilemma
of ate. ka yam ht. to be
utmost Halt. Peaks seem mane mildestoug But=the
that asked there is meek dillimisse opinion.
attendees have been oessidined, hat MO msseipadellYi
whisk thai has hum a Ansa dent at skinks. dead by the
diamicas whisk bass Mks plan es hams the ermines-
meat of the sanded poor law in 1847, and a whisk I
withal to Lie way peserrel views to the essmatise-11 fa
wish Napa* le the area of taxation. Many are el opielseiv
mg a Ibma I believe the majority of the bilk mar
here sidVillts einamittee, that It would be desirable to
Ban a mamma begged which the peer sok amid
lit go ; that by sash a plan the swam a
i would be far mere likely to expend his cap&
than if there wen to be an ualimited rate
and that ia the ease of the sale of property, a pudemer
amid be more readily found if be wen certain that the sede
weal he Halted, and that the whole rant would met be
swallearalap to support the poor. With the same
and ko the same resew, it is considered that the are sir
texallim should be mask net. limited, with the view that
lasilhdisse Maks re swab limited amount of labourers
wishes medal •MWs4 dad being meters of that district
mks nikeZ mkt semema
desk tat
to be gins
ddta desk tat up= surrhk,
esd singly Zeit Veins eg t&re, if they
wen ad
ammel Oboe ether preprieton In their knee-
Akio adghbarateed and subject to similar des as as theamikes wens not able to refase all
omploymene fe Me labourmi a their district, and thus throw
Imam who were employing all the labour in their power
an the Inds they possessed, the whole burden of taxation.
Wile thesis a very amiable view of the subject, I think
it is kapessibk to look at it in all its bowlegs without seine
that if tihe pliaciple were adopted that each property should
form a seem ana taxation, and be liable 'only for the
support of own poor, very great sad serious evils would
(Ilene, bear.) In the fleet place, you could not
justly ram to the very small proprietors what you grant to
the large OMB. In • stundrawn by the clerks of the
Limerick union I And ono large property of 3,000 aerie' and
I dial know how you can say that you will protectt the
mars asset properties from being swamped by his neigh.
heir, tad yet allow a property of 30 acres to be swamped by
the emir of the no*.ghag property of 2,000 or 3,000
mak ' Then would be no justice in sash a preposition; and
Nyera storied your subdivison to such an extent as te make
19rest, it b obvious that great confusion would be the Gorm-
less" and the dildeulties of carrying the poor law into
effbkpe many es to make it almost impossible. But there
tee Meracmger objections to it ; and one of these objections
k that aldaoagh one news of landlords might wish to
do their duty by employing a number of labourers on
their estate, and by adv capital for its improvement,
satiated that they would be ultima ny rewarded by snag
the labourers who were so employed happy and cheerful,
and their own estates rendered more valuable
themselves, Ireland, according to the testimony of Irishme_
there is another class of landlords who would take a very
different entree, who look only to the immediate returns
they receive ; and whose first nap, upon (ladles that their
laud was to bear the taxation of supporting those readopts
ea it wise were Winn, or who wanted employment, would
be to rid it of what theywould consider an ircumbrane upon
is—(her—(her)—to throw the email tenants at will, aad all who
he a burden on them, out of employment—thus driving
ma* in large ambers frees the agticultural district.,
as any knit been driven during the last 30 years—(bear,
bear)—lato the suburbs of large towns, to live there as men-
dicants for a short time, end the to perish of disease and
starvation. (Hear, hear.) Again, if you adopt the :-
meat of making each property subject to its own rates fr
the support of its own poor, you would be obliged to estab-
lish a musk Mister law of settlement eve* than there ends
la this
whe matey. (Hem
empl , km.)oyed You meld find, that If
those penes! were by Oak nes kndlorde,
err by mull oemplers et laid, attempted ter meek elsewhere
to better worm a few miss off, or eves Isis than a few
idles, they would be drives task teraidais *sitarist from
whisk they we, sad would thankem, sot the he. and
ladependent lassuren bathe perk a the katkeMe whe em-
ployed thew, (Load arks ear "Hear.") Thies ere the
erection., Wad as it seem to me the insuperable:akstion
which 'toad sgalast the subdivision a the area of taxation
which haw bus proposal-by Mae poor law reformers in
Inland. news is at di km time no doubt that conies
dues 1e lassamaisme grime hem the sire of many of the
salons In Wand. Ile emestkiners to wham / alluded
hat akikit 111T0 hkal kat salami lido their essilimaimi.
They esoryieell the rhos el the south and NON and
Abseil et the *yokel CITC111•01110•11 illlbr, y
are yet of that the greater subdivielen of ile
seek sue were itvembie te the Itsvolopmest sir talvalty,
and shy sheiks, premed VW there Shedd be a gnaw
divWn dos beretehee be the leap mime al the south.
That k squeaks whist oby Ihistyle seastiesed. If the
samelase ham Ike whims* dame paean who ban bees
-egsgsd La tank, the Mar diets& ctivbises, they may be
sebesi Li 'haste!. owes he. already been taken;
they say amyl* ems ellieellues la that course. That is a
ties be s It dellbselha sad &melee, bet
nest* set be allyelsg tie yawl* to which I
Imo adverted. tbsse aissadmee et the preesat else-
total diadem, more mold* eselideelag that they
ware mei for a different peer /ow would be ree-
sombk sad juin, hat mek a as I ban
just Mad the eirjestiens Is weak bee swims evil sad peal
the 'gift et the law. (Hear, bier.) There are some
ether eateadmnts to whisk I need set new more pertkakely
allude—with the exeepties sine to which the govennesat
hale given Oak orardss, and en which I atiac to
slate It his hem segps*l that
She MOM of the pima pm law, it is met
thin Imes hod Is leks& which were not in
althall law, should be subject as the tors of
rake to the poor sate. (Hear' broil Now whit
in to vest it would be quite fa Ids to subject
the& le It 11a ran being a sharp that must my be
Ns mkt% set Asks rated for the ezehermr, bet
he Leal IMlmmediateeffeet d narks*
neelgages liatla to it mad be the withdrawal of the saw
lest, and onestarat &anis baked of benefit. But with
nepierte Jingly *rim the cam k different. Where they
have set been mode la eostangialka of a poor-law, bit Ist
the least that the loadinner would have a certain 1•13114
from the sell, earl ehersioathat a carton etargecculdibkly
be put on the lanA as a asgLwsnt, it would he just sad prac-
ticable that thin sloymbl bosom dedemtias ea sigma of the
rate. But Ido think Weal beyond the
settpocre-/meats hitherto ma ma
itde. It bast@bead
sow Mown thee the
pesky midis settlesenes will be made emeakily,
and I Oman" think tart there sisal be a re.
'daLien he mat them saltiest Ie the rate. how-
ever, ia a het w OM under crer erseliesedea ena
Lie sesuiss. maw pelt of the saket which
has lid to a great deal el doubt, but remselfsg whisk some
prevklen met be made. I slab to land Meseppied for •
ensiderabk time, now lying mole, and an whisk these were
onsideesbk mean of peer rate due. I believe it would
tend to the future occupation and enkinticra ettimelsad,
thcise imam were to be for one ressfatoL (Hese, hear.)
Isar peetatir, to state that white k pertienkrly the
of mantles, that renoludia
is mike: the mane yam Imre paid by env
=lnked a smagielte a rese dilemmas lbe penile MA
ill Silk Mill% IOW•140 I ping am ear the rad
thereal, Sawa; kit arena ma Is pia to a @sprats
aiiimt at the Raft of him/, In the name et Leta
Mot mama a shit
savision bai and, aadall be applied In sash mom espeniunmt
+kb _ _

IL the meet oldie sommiedcmers is a letter addressed by
them %Lewd Clemedee, dated 11th Deo., 1848, is *hick
°Taft whew et ulna ISt Mee re parr=
redo la origerel espenerie hoe the rordollia r
peedier AMINO& mere i & seed oar oar ragas leer It
lora, la err the prase rarer of order nada rarirablo.
bat la dlat of =arm mire ibrodsl aorienveraalo
=4 awl the aralataia at las moo am be
rater Weer sit Otago nisiderg Irma sigybtlii
awn ra is wide as mart le aroma gaga_ pee of the wort-
h:mot 'lathe 00810111111401111 M WOMAN. Ina Warr Ile Ira art
ratorlia=grepla WA eat Mr r
arerglatizeCt weget;
toe tie worldera irrarrobllia la taw
raw isherled le arot a warldstrio Wire re
aatni rpm*" adortro orderwill be again r
The *pinks gibe esassiseiseers, therefore, is, that est of
131 union this. are net more that 10 he whkh they expect
mese Mena 614 will he required. As I said on a termer
sesselen, we meat le sonsidering this question sever put oat
alight tim elegem of the pest biters in the supply of that
whisk has bees the stopple hod et the ese..(Heur, bear.)
It is, thershre, impossible tor es to ee.uWat them animas
as ariblag is the lOW is which they were in
18367, when The peer-law eamoshelemses of inquiry
made their report. At ea were,
however wretched it
ndght have append that they were, kusdreds of families
had le Misseabb* mud sables, eseeisting of only one room
—the* make as bum ahmed most grievously fur the
mem by the yeimehe Of that toed apes whisk thee sub-
IMMO, depsehed—(ltear, ben)—ter, be it remembered,
that them people sever resolved, sad sever expected to re-
• n, to
wages le the merle of the yew se valid enable
them to live, b. tar @testily ; and they were, therefore,
forced to depend epee the little crop of potatoes seljoidog
W wretched calims they inhabited (Rear, bear.)
Within the lest yea. we have seen repeated is
as aggravated shape this calamitous failure, which
at various times had Aided Ireland ; onee is the
middle of hit century, sad oleo in 1822, when great relief
was afforded by psi liameat. The question, therefore, 'ogees
to be, whether that relief shall hi In any shape continued,
OT whether parliament will think it wise to make no provi-
sion whatever for that relied, but to allow those miseries and
the inhabitants to take Ike miserable themes that they may
have of surviving till seat harvest without asking any effort
whatever to tar them. (Hear, hear.) The house hit felt,
and naturally kit, that the efforts made by the people of this

Sibb4 -7; Wei tit,
01 (Ides,
'bud II giceral return ofnature . the "grants and loins of nuns Tor
waits eletepfedbedirtnatite nude)* ISA oar, aSd 1348,
from which ft apposes that there was ad/mama, under Mr.
Labouchere's letter, /00,0001; for reclaiming and draining,
1170,0001. ; ordains seaboard of worts, 180,0001.; harbours
to., 100,0001 ; railways. 620,0001. ; navigation improve:
mess 100,0001. ; for the river Shelters, 123,0001.; which,
with another item of 200,0001 (for what purpose he did not
know), made no less a mies than 2,193,0001. advanced within
three pernfieketpandeetive worts in Ireland.
Hein, hear.) Moreover there still remained 1,000,0001.
under the Lead Improvement Act not yet applied for;
sad width would be applied for from time to time,
far 'alai rag and draining, mating altogether 3,193,0001.
I think, sir to this statmeent that it cannot be said
that the go;rieennella Or padismant have neglected all works
of • reprodnedea Palate, mei that the whole amount of
money voted bee been eateamed kw perpoeea of charity.
(Rear, hear.) It bee beet eland la this house, and with
great hue, that alma* home pants have been made, and
that if it was right tio ee.ti .e this system of relief in any
way It would be batjenathet Ireland should contribute her
share equally to that fend. In looking to the burdens of the
law in baked and England I certainly
pie
that these it sot so great a burden in
any part of Irked as in many puts of England.
Taking the beginning of the guardians' returns for Ireland,
I fiat that in three unions in Antrim the rate is le. 3d.,
Is. 101., la 74d. ; In two unions in Armagh it is le. 416.,
2s. 10d. ; in the county Down it averages le. 3d. or Is. 4d. ;
in Fermanagh, 26. 646., 2s. lid. ; in Londonderry, Is. 346.,
le. 94d.; in several sounds in Lehman it is equally
low; in Kildare, fa three unions, it is 24., Is. 74d.,
ls. 64d. ; and in Meath, Is. 21., 24, 2e. 141. 45., Is. 1046.
These are the suss paid under the poor law in several parts
of Ireland, so that it cannot be said respecting those pule at
leen that they are sunk, destroyed, and ruined by the poor
law. (Rear, Merl On the con it
as
does oppear, cow
them with stay parts of E d, that they as le
Cirrigrued than the colons of W , Suess, and other
perm of England. (Hear, hear.) It does not seem, there-
fore, impossible that they should bear some additional bar.
den for the sate of those distressed unions. (Hear, hear.)
When I propose, however, that there should
be a rate in aid conceded in Ireland generally
for the sake of the distressed districts, I ass
met by the argument that the poor rats being a local
burden it was no sore applicable to the county Down than
to Middlesex, when intended to rapport the purposes of Mayo
or Sligo; that it would be quite es just to impose an
additional poor seta on Lancashire for the purposes of
Norfolk, as ea the county Down for the poor of the
West of Ireland. There would be mueh justice in this
argnesent, if it could be said that Ireland was altogether
taxed to the same amount as England, that she contributed
to the national exchequer in the same degree and proportion
to her wealth, and that all the taxes to which the English
people were subject the Irish people were also subject to
(Beer, hoer) But it is not so. It was put forward with
great emphasis by the hon. member for Northamptonshire,
when we propmed a former grant, that theta were taxes to
a very large amount paid in this country which
were not paid at all in Ireland. He stated their
amount at 11,000.0001., but I have seen a statement from
which it appears that we pay seen more than that.
We pay an theme-tax of 5,300,0001., a land-tax of
1,150,0001., aroma taxes to the extent of 3.400,0001.,
making, in direst taxation alone, 9,850,0001. ; and
we pay to the excise, taxes on bricks, soap,
de., 2,3000001, making altogether 12,150,0001. (Loud
(Cheer.)l think it Is Int just to any, that an additional
taxation on this country of upwards of 12,000,0001 entirely
alters the case with regard to the local tandem which we
wish to impose for the benefit of the western districts of Ire-
land. I and boa. genth men saying very readily at this
moment, impoS ups us exactly the same taxes as Eng-
land, and then we will consent to anything that is do.
evaded. That is sadly said—(bear, hear) ; but if we cams
to propose the income tax, if we said that instead of 300,0001.
we would charge Ireland with about 1000,0001., so that
instead of 6d., something like Is. and le. 6i. would be sated,
I think we would find thou hon. gentlemen changing their
opinions very fast, and having made professions togret rid
of the present proposal, they would than object with Mire
u much fierceness and pertinacity to the one subetitut•d
at their own request. (Hear, hear.) Besides the
71. in the pound in the one cue would be levied off the
tenants of, all piteous whose incomes were over 1501. ;
whereas in the 6d. rate the occupier would have to pay 3d.,
and charge the other 3d. to the landlord. In the other ease
he would charge the entire 7d. So that such persons would
have to pay 7d. in the pound instead of 3d. With regard
to the preposition itself, I certainly have no peculiar fond-
ness for the mode of rating it involved, more than for
any other. Bet I believe if you withdraw it, and
substitute anincome.tax, we should find in another
shape the same okitiodous—that we are charging all Ire-
land for the relief of one part, and the same argument,
that the imperial exchequer was answerable for it.
But, air, the objestiose go farther than this; it is said, and
we were told last *ht, that it is a nutter of feeling, affect-
ing even the loyalty of the loyal protestant, of Ulster. (Hear,
hear.) Now, I de not think that those who represent ULM;
can represent her fairly, when they assert that her loyalty
will be impaired by such a proposition as this. It is no gees-
don of right. And, not being so, I cannot believe that the
loyalty of Ulster is of that nature that it will be hiapaimilit
the imposition of a tax of this kind, for the relied
who are( destitute and suffering the extras tri-71
misery. Hear, hear.) Bat, eir, I am told that this
measure is likely to lead to a permaemit
upon du income of Ireland, sad that a retdrC
aid, a perpetual rate in aid, will be the eons,.
quotes of the proposal. Now_ let us look at
what is the tatted situation of again. We have twenty
miens now, either Le or Lltely to be in, a state of very great
distress. nun is as reran that I know why that distress
&MU In MN 111 antlasease for many years longer. My
:7=l'is that est of two things moat infallibly happen:
4:will find that, the return of good and plentiful
hareeststhere will be sidlideet food and employment for the
people in those distils* sad that there will be such a change
of culture and ends ea employment of capital in thou dis-
tricts, that the people may be plumed in • state of comparative
comfort, and then you are relieved from the burden in that
manner; er des you will find that the people, seeing that
they have so of the restoration of the food upon
which the deppi el, will migrate to othe districts, will
migrate to ether of Ireland, will migrate to Scotland,
win migrate to " Hear, hear,' and laughter)
—will emigrate te ear colonies, to our Australian
colonies, and to the United States of Ametica. That is what
you find they have dear to a great extent, in the
last three menthe. It not without example that great
calasities have befallen a people, is consequesce of a failure
either of their mesperions or of their means of livelihood:
Not many years ago a great population was maintained in
some of the western Wu of Scotland by the gathering of
kelp ; this was greduallmy dhpisesd by ether manures, sad
afterwasillebyelmatioalmettens.
that those people co
That mode nebralibeod bee noTbeenani
restored to them. Great
misery was endured bat there is no leaner, there meld not
be any longer, that people exintienUg is the western islands
without the means by -width they found, enbeisted. Nay,
more; we fled in suet& team of thiseenatry, and in several
pieces en the esetinent, that various humekas of meaufecture
have:eaboisted sad flourished ter a dew, that those bras-hem
of mantifite_ have Wisely um** the plisses in width.
they wore hlhhede that greet miessyhas been endured kg
a time, bet that afliewenis the pZatelhosa those
mannt4tures have employed /MS to other
districts, where there was seem other or the lam employ-
ment found for them; and mentaally theme islasities left no
trams behind them. fistalskilove, sir, will it be with re-
spect to this calamity some of the southern and
western districts of Ireland. livelihood of the people
having been entirely setimated.apla the culture of the po-
tato, end that food having that food muse
beck to es, mime they Sad that there is the same mode of
eabeittanno that they haws hitherto hed,—you will find, after
a time, that other districts will have,—not the harden of
their subsistence, but will have the benefit of their employ-
ment. (Bar, hear.) I have now, sir, stated the reasons
upon which I posed the proposition that I have to Mate to
the hose. I believe that, if you agree to this propositios,
after the coesent of the home has been obtained, if we dad
it InONINITT. item the amounts of increasing destite-
dia,—.• shall he
jeetilied in
adriag some advance from
this hum, behre the rate is eatually collected, with
whisk we monlit supply the more premise wants of
the potpie. At all events, I think it is the
duty ol'an4=amenthe t to lay the cue before the House of
caina
hear)—to ask the House of Commons
wksithereispem, ready. Mmost 41 Owns's, by which
we peoleth to meet this mos of missy and wretchedness ;
detthtip'ffae Mesa elf Cammens, if thry do not take our
seams, emesidisethst titre ere ether meats which ought to
be fat gesibreses; or whether, lastly, it should be
the dNMew will end sentare of the House of Commons
that no moms be made te Milne this distress and destitu-
tion. (Mear,hcor.) As I understood an hes. gentleman
who area lost night, and who resisted the motion for the
Speaker leaving the chair, the last seemed to be the view
which he took of this question. For my part, sir, I own I
cannot take that view. 1 own I think, -although you should
limit your aid although you should take care that it be
spent as frugally sad economically as possible, yet, consider-
ing that the whole social state of Ireland is undergoing a
great transition, sad that you may rave some of the misery
and many of the deaths which are the consequence of that
tiamelliest ky ielerpleiet with relief of this kind,—l am con-
Meat that the hum- was wont at once to the propOsition I
SOW make. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. STAFFORD said, experience had proved to
hint that the policy he had advocated two yawl ago, and ad-
vocated now, was the only true policy for Ireland.
He held that whatever was done with regard to &andel
natters in Ireland, they ought never to Ices sight of the
culture of that great principle the non-existence of which
was the oases of all helead'intioariee—theuiple of self-
demising*. Moot In eilnidaaef Ina taw course,
ona *shaken te *states of his own touchline, he
had hint night emu& **Speaker's leaving the *hair, and
6110114 eaThistliames, this seams, in every ciao of its
stars. Meer. With reimenes to the government plan
for remedyin evil of Imbed he was convuiced that When
they met perWmat they bad se play at all. It was not till
the committee on the I Peso Law oren appointed that
the noble lord at the lend of the government had declared
his intuition of kph* sem* resolutions before that com-
mittee. Ts
settle- lead had said that distress in parti-

euler dist:lets, arising from local causes, was net altogether
Freadented ; and be bad referred in proof to the
p.gatheras in the Western Islands. Bat them
acidly acquainted with these islands would be able
to mews his lordship that the distress there was
far from bobs wholly removed. It ought also to
be remembered that though the dinars might be in
some degree anidegons to that in Connaught, there was no
precedent in the western islands her a rate in aid. The
noble lord had expressed his belief that either the distress
would vanish er the people would migrate. This they had
already donelargely, m those who contributed to the poor-
tines in Manchester and Liverpool well knew. (Hear, hear.)
As for migrating to North America, that was quits out of
their power; the rate in aid would not entitle them to do
this ; but may would migrate to England, and many to the
piece who the weary were at rest (Hear.) He hoped
some minister would supply the remarkable omissions of the
noble lord, as to the amount this sixpenny rate would rata.
and the length if time over which its distribution would
extend, and the amount of distress which it was
l:Cgto remedy. It was said to be pee-
s rate would produce about 592,000/. • of which
near 400,0001. would be presently absorbed. What then was
to be dens if, ecstasy to all ministerial expectation, the dis-
tress should not disappear ? His objectionsto the government
plan were these—that it was unjust difficult of execution,
and that it would fail of its object He hoped the right hon.
baronet would explain the peculiarly pros circum-
stances in that wintry which now ind him to sleet
for tazatioa that peculiar kind of property which had
been meet burdened and most oppressed, and was
'most nearly brought down to absolute prostration.
With great respect for the intentions of the noble lord,
that did not seem to him to be absolutely just. The noble
lard said that there would be great resistance if Ito had raid
that he was about to propose an hamar-tax to Ireland.
What he complained of was, that the noble lord never gave
Ireland the alternative. Let it not be said that Ireland n-
asal the inooms•tax. She never had en opportunity of
pregame* an opinion. As an Irish proprietor he would
urge the benefit and advantage of equal taxation. (Hear.)
If the income-tax had been extended to Ireland every
fainter who paid lass than 3001. a year would be exempt.
(Hear, hear.) Under the poor-law system ev. ry farmer
who was rated at 51. was taxed. (HHesa.) Whilst they
refused on the one hand to offer to Ireland the alternative of
an income tax, they, on the other hand, declined to take
the bold and manly course of bringing this question forward
as a government question in the Sat instance till they had
*baited the additional advantage which a committee of
their own selection gave them. (Hear, hear.) He blamed
them strongly for the mode in which they dealt with this
question, bemuse they gave an opportunity to those who
wiskedto throw the burden of mantaining the poor of Ireland
on the imperial exchequer. Having 'avidity= unfair net to
propose to Ireland the alternative of an income tax, or the im-
position of a rate on a 'peeks of property which was most de-
pressed, he would now refer to the application of themml..
One reason why he desired to see Ireland in a just
of taxation with this country, was that noon. you'd velts-Zi:
consequence of her suffering this distress, to advance to Ireland
such money as would be deemed adequate to meet say
great emergency. Thus they would have aid from the na-
tional funds under the sautiny of the representatives of the
people. (Hear, hair.) Now they proposed a rate in aid for
local purposes, to be levied by local machinery. This was a
difference of great Importance. (Hear, hear.) How did
they propel's, to check the profuse expenditure of this money?
Would they gid rid of jobbing ? He apprehended they
would not have that strict @mutiny in the application of the
money which they would have if paid from the exchequer.
Very few of those before or behind him would take that in-
terest In the expenditure of this money, which they would if
it came out of the pockets of their constituent,. His wish
was to interest every English member in the expenditure of
the money. Therefore he would prefer public grants from
the imperial treasury, but he did not wish for a single
farthing from the treasury except on the condition
that both countries were equally taxed. That was one
objection to the government plan. The noble lord went over
the arguments against a property rating. He (Mr. Stafford)
did not mean to deny that there was some force in them.
The noble lord said that the principle would tend to moo-
rage the destines system. Of all the arguments against the
small area that showed the most complete, he would not say
ignorance, but want of knowledge of the present poor law.
A residence of thirty mouths out of thirty-six gave a mum
a m ight to be charged in that locality where he resided for
that time. Now if the property area were established, and
a landlord were to tura out his poor tenants, they would be
charged to him. If his property consisted of 100 acres, and
those constituted the whole division, he would have to pay
the whole Is. rate for every pauper ejccted ; if the division
consisted of 150 acres belonging to two proprietors, then a
rate of Bd. would be levied on each ; if it consisted
of 300 agree, belonging to three proprietor,, then each
would hays to pay 4d. for every pauper ejected.
How did matron stead at present ? A noble lord, whom be
would not name, though it was on the tip of his tongue,
ejected between 30 and 40 families from his estate, in the
county of Limerick, which was near his (Mr. Stafford's).
As a magistrate he had one morning to vet to preserve the
peas in consequence, and the very next he had, as chair-
man of the board of guardians, to sign an order on himself
for their maintenance. (Laughter, and " Hear, heat.")
The noble lord said that the electoral divisions were to
be reconsidered ; that,. he supposed, was a soft word for di-
minished, just as the right boo. baronet (Sir R. Peel) used
to say that he would adjust the cern laws when he meant
their repeal. (Laughter, and '• Hear, hear.") But the
difficulty was where to draw the boundary line. There were
two &strings on the subject. One wee, that by the large area
they would sustain the freedom of the labour. WeU, that plan
had been tried in Connaught for 18 months, as on corpore
sin. Was it not so unsuccessful in that province as to induce
the three other provinces to decline having the experiment
extended to them? The other principle ea that of making
the division coterminous with property. It was said that
this would restrict the freedom of the labourers. He begged
of hon. gentlemen not to be sawed by mere word,. Words
which had a meaning in this country had not the same
meaning in a country situated as Ireland was. In the north
• Ireland the principle of divisions coterminous with pro-
arty, had worked well, and had developed the resources
of that part of the country. Gentlemen said that
the English poor law system was applied to Ireland. It
was a mere jingle of words. All the disadvantages of
the English poor law were applied to Ireland, but
the best parte of the system were kept back. The noble lord
must be aware that both Melanie and Ricardo declared that
were it not for the smallness of the area of tuition—the
smallness of the parishes (which meant electoral divisions in
Ireland)—the English poor-laws could never have worked in
England. (Hear, hear.) That was the great advantage
which the English poor law had over the Irish. Another
was, that the Whole of the rate la England fell on the
occupiers • whereas in Ireland, sometimes as much as
two-thirds% and sometimes even the whole rate, fell on
the landlord. What they said, therefore, was, " If
yea give 'us the English poor-law, give no also
the English. area of taxation.' s (Hear, hear.) Now, as
far as he could ascertain, the area in England was
about 2000 acres, excluding the extra-parochial lands which
were not accurately known. Would the noble lord
direct the bonadery commissioaers to assimilate as much as
possible the size of the Irish electoral divisions to the size of
the English parishes? (Hear.) That was to say, that
the area should not be above 2000 saes nor much under
1000. It might happen that this meld not be always
stringently observed, but it should be carried out es nearly
as possible. Until they did this their arrangements
for the relief of pauperism in Ireland would only
acmes population by diminishing the stimulus to exertion,
Till they did this, any bill for the rule of Jneumbered estates
must be vales, far no person would purchase in a division
which sesdated of 17,000 acres, and where, consequently,
he could not calculate upon any return upon his capita/.
(Hear, hear.) The question of the union wee very different
tram that of the electoral division'. The two must be kept
quite distinct, though the boundary emnatiasion tried most
unfairly to confound them. Let it be considered that
it there were to be new unions there must be new
masters, and sew chaplains, and a new staff of oficiab.
Where was the money to coins from for the building of
these new union? The state was to lend It. He warned
hon. gentlemen to take are how they advanced the money.
But if new unions were to ha made, let not those electoral
divisions that were now united together, and wished to con-
tinue so, be separated. He wadi objea to Limerick for in-
stance being sectrwfisom the other electoral divisions, at
the will of the oontsksioners. But in saying this
he did not wish to understood se pronouncing any
opinion with regard to large mans is the country.
If the home let the seed time go ly there would be mere
poverty and misery than there had hems already; and, in.
stead*: a rate of fd. in disposed it would be necessary to
have one of double or treble that amount. The evidence
eves by Mr. Galata before the Irish poor-law committee
ekes's& thuds* imposition of this rate would he very unjust.
Hon. members fended that they were "Wag to impose a
rate of ad. in the pound. But what wee to be the valuation ?
Did they wish the rate to vary from 2d. to 2s. ? Did they
wish it to be collected through a series of arbitrary and
unequal valuations ? As men of business, did they not w-
eave that the kinwerce millainsees of the rate depended on
=lilt of valustiss ? (Rear, hear.) He tended that
members wadi therm the expression of their
opinion on this edmme until they had read the evidence
which had hese kid that day en the table of the house.
Her liejesty'smat had often taunted Irish members
with their He (Mr. Stafford) had euLges.Led
Zffiof lamatisa end a smaller area. What he
ellireeernmeat with was not the proceeding uponTO
=but upon no principle at all, with regard to Ire-
did not believe they had a singlearrangement made
with rope* to the poor law before the assembling of parlia-
ment; be thine* believe they had, as a cabinet, made up
desk Mlle en a //tie question connected with it. There
were differences and discords amongst them on that subject,
the effect of which was tomtits the whole cabinet effete. If
ever them were a government devoid of resources within it-
self, the government in power was in that }eddies ; and,
therefore, though he must strongly resist their plan, yet,
taking pity on their great destitution of plan, he had
ventured to throw out serums suggestions with regard to
this rate in aid.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL reminded the hon. member who
had just spoken that he bad not attemptedi to meet the argu-
ment of the noble lord (Lid J. l 1 ), that to reds,» the
area would be to offer a prendara for extermination. Even
the spa& of the noble lord, however, was not satisfactory.
It afforded very little eneoaragementtothe friends of Ireland,
and contained no outline of the large and comprehensive
measures which the haw bad been led to expect. The
noble lord had presented two alternatives with regard to the
future condition of Ireland. The first supposed that through
some magic agency, the noun of which he had not de-
scribed, the potato might be motored end the Irish peasant be
enabled ultimately to obtain a better description of food, but
he bad not indicated any plan of legislation by which the
audition of the Irish people wadi to be thus elevated. The
second alternative was the sweeping away of the present ge-

natation and the planting of the country anew Be how
that this particular measure would be operative for en 1401
inopeenthe fee good; but he would not commit h
a decided opposition until he had learned whethe ova
honourable member opposite had anythina to
in lien of it. With regard to the prop to
irrd.
he mot Nahum that he scarcely knew what comes to
take. He !sew that in the present disposition of the hefts
the menu
must have some pretext when nid ems
any aid *sea be given to Ireland. Bat he esseel ewe
what wee proposed would destroy the poor rate-payee, Who
in these eases was always forgotten, though the resell of leo
oversight wean multiply the numbeed paupers. Tit=
tem of Ireland was little else than a community of
and poor tenants ; a middle slam could scarcely be mid
to exist ; and, under such circumstances, the coarse pro Pond •
could not but operate injuriously. He bad understood the
noble lord to say that annuitann were to be sabjected to a '
special tax, and that, if an income tax were established, is
would in their sate be exceptional. It was impossible to dn. ' •
cuss the matter advasitegeouly without knowing needy •
what the guenuasst had to propose. The noble lend Isee
thrown out a hint of a future equalisation of taxation he
Ireland. Ireland, said the noble lord, was not es
present taxed is proportion to her resources.
Was that representation rawest ? The right hen,
the member for Tamweeth, when proposing en income tag
for England in 1842 stated the fiend ability of Ireland to be,
in comparison with that of this country, as one to nine. If
that woes so, Ireland should of course be taxed only to the
=test of one-niath. Now what was the fact ? On examin-
ing the taxes from which the rename in both countries was
derived, it =peered that the Irish people were only exempted
from terse which tampon& one-fourth of the revenue, sae
that the taxes which composed the remaining three-fourths
were paid lathe same proportion in Ireland as in England.
The argument of the noble lord, therefore, would
not bear examination. Honourable gentlemen were
led astray by the fact that Ireland supplied only
4,000,0001, while England supplied 36,000,0001. The
produce of taxation was less only because the ability to con-
sume WWI less. (Hear.) He did not deny that might
be considered a hardship to the people of Ulster that they
should be called upon to pay this rate in aid ; but the pea.
liar advantages which they had enjoyed had prepared them
to sustain the burden. He thought it would be fair at melt
a period to raise a contribution from the church property
in Ireland. The church itself was the church of a =aft
minority. In 1834 its members were calculated et
seven or eight hundred thousand. Hs did not believe
that the number now exceeded 700,000. Was it net mon-
strous that upwards of 800,0001. should be given annually to
sigh a church ? Though he had no wish to interfere with
vested rights, he thought the government might fairly bor-
row money on the security of the property in the hands of
the Ecclesiastical Corembeionen, leaving it to be repaid out
of the proceeds of lapsed benefit... Again, could aoythine
be more fair than that absentees should be taxed 1 It had
been said teat amongst the absentee Irish proprietors were
some of the best landlords in Europe. Granting this, he asked
whether they would he worse landlords it they were at home.
He demanded that Ireland should be credited the amount of
income tax paid here by Irishmen from Irish sources,
350,00 W. per annum. He demanded, further, that Inland
should be credited the ue arising from crown rents then
certainly not less than 60,0001. per annum, on the security of
which alone the half million spoken of could readily be
borrowed, without having recourse to any new tuna.
As to a poor-law in place of that he would remove, he bed
none to propose. He objected to the whole principle of pen.
awe. England had grown prosperou notin consequence other
poor-law but in despite of her poor-law. It was, indeed, bee
poor law which had checked her prosperity ; and as to in-
land, her poor law had wholly completed that proem=
which so many other causes had tended to prolate. The
hon. member rend a statement from the suffragan VAR*
of the archdiocese of TIMM, setting forth the distress of the
population there. What had occasioned all this distress?
What the misery which was gradually overwhelming the
whole Irish people ? Why, the legislation of the imperial
parliament. The English talked as though they bad been the
saving of Ireland, whereas they had been her (Intranet.
He did not speak of their private individual ben.
volence which had been most nobly exhibited towards the
individual people of Ireland; but for their conduct towards
Ireland, nationally', he protested against it as utter tyranny
and oppression. He demanded for the people of Ireland a
jut system of landlord and tenant, amounting to something
at all events approaching tenant right, so that the
industrious email tenant might, by the prospect of reaping his
own harvest, be induced to sow that harvest, instead
of spending his little earnings on a desperate emigratios.
Viscount BERNARD said, in opposing the resolutions of
the noble lord, he was not actuakd by any personal or pecuniary
motives. The house had been told that if they did not aunt
to the proposed rate in aid, the people of Ireland would perish
by thousands. Upon whom would rest the responsibility sup-
posing what was said should prove to be tree ? He mud
reply, that in his opinion, so long lie the government re-
mained in office, so long were they responsible for the safety
of the people of Ireland. The hon, member for Limerick
had proposed to make the church property of Irelend con-
tribute to the maintenance of the poor. But it was no
satisfactory solution of the difficulty in which the country
was plead to have the appropriation clause rennet in another
form or for the house to be told that because the church of
Ireland was possessed of property It ought to be sacrificed to
a rate in aid of the poor la= The amount of exemption
which Ireland enjoyed from taxation was stated tosmount to
11,000,0001. a year. But if the income tax was extended
to that country it would not realise 600,0001., whilst the
landed property of Ireland was burthened with 3,700,0001. of
annual interest, as the amount of advances on the rental of
13,000,0001. It was said very truly that the valuation of the
different unions was very defective and partial. This was
tree, and it was even now a fact, that Mr. Griffiths's vales.
tion, although not yet completed, was far higher
than the rentals in the unions warranted, so much had pro-
perty sunk within the last few years, and so rapidly us
it still decreasing. There were only 45 of the unions out of
debt according to the papers laid on the table, and if any
additional rate was imposed on then unions they would be
placed in the greatest difficulty. The noble lord had
touched very lightly on one of the chief causes of the
distress which prevailed in the unions, namely, the total
loss of the staple of the Irish people's food by the ruin of
the potato crop. The province of Ulster had been
spoken of during the discussion on the present oar
won ; he must add his testimony to that of other hon.
members, and remind the house that to the loyalty
of Ulster was mainly due the stability of the legislative union.
.

Mr. W. T. FACiAN condemned the endeavours of the
noble lord to cream jealousy and to sow divension amongst
dames in Ireland by praising the loyalty of the province of
Ulster at the expense of the remainder of Ireland. That
was the way to set class against elan--a course which the
noble lord so much deprecated is other hon. members.
The hon. member for Limerick had denounced the poor laws
in Ireland, but he would like to know what Ireland would
have dons during the last two years but for the poor laws.
England was as much interested in the condition of Ireland
as Ireland was herself ; and he contended that on WPM
principle of Ireland should be relieved out of the im-
perial treasury. He had often been met by the argument
that if Ireland were to be relieved out of the impend trea-
sury, she ought to contribute to the general expenditure by
means of the assessed taxes ; but this, he asserted, would be
a direct violation of the act of union, and would be, in fad,
calling upon Ireland to pay more than eke was able to pay,
and more than she was in justice felled upon to contribute.
He was in favour of a national rate in aid ; but be wu of
opinion that the present measure required many modifies-
tams, and he believed that those who would be called use
to contribute would be found in many cases to be as poor ai
those for whom the contributions were levied. Still, for his
own part, he must confess that, but for its inquisitorial dr
ratter, he should prefer an universal income tax to this na-
tional rata fn aid. -

Mr. BANHBS said that there were some very ominous
soutanes@ which fell from the noble lord at the head of the
gavernment at the conclusion of his speech, when he Weal
broadly that after all we had been called on to pay, we wars
to advance the money and take oar chance for the amity.
And what was the security of the noble lord ? The security
for the money was the rate in aid, which some Irish mem-
bers said they could not :pay, and which others said they
would not pay. This was the position itt which they were
placed by her Majesty's government, and he must
say that his hoe. friends who took the precaution to
have • preliminary explanation from the noble lord,
were wise in the course they punned, for if the
noble lord had made the statement then which he made
now, he (Mr. Bantu) doubted whether he would hare
got his committee. It wee a difficult matter for those
who acceded to 50,0001. to be implicated in a vote
on a security which the Irish repudiated. lie had
understood that the vote of 60,0001. was to meet the difficult
emergency of these peculiar times, when they were to colan-
der the proposition of relief. If that were not sufficient, why
did they not ask for • larger sum, which might have been
sufficient; but, above all, why did they not all parliament
together at an early period, when, from the papers which
were laid on the table, it appeased that from the 29th
Sept they were aware of the emergency ? That being the
case, how could they charge persons with delay, when they
asked only for the delay of a few hours, to
moulder the nature of the proposition ? When
government did call parliament together, they did not think
at their dutyto_put in her Majesty's Speech any one expres-
sion which could lead the house to believe that the state or
condition of Ireland was of the nature which they now pro-
fessed it to be. Such delay was chargeable upon
the ministers of the crown, and not upon those
who performed their duty, representing constituencies
not yet reduced to the condition of thou in Ire-
land, to exercise the right of considering the nature of the
proposition submitted to the house. He must say that when
called on to advance a Anther large sum of moaey to meet
the immediate exigenciee of the' wants of the people of
Ireland he was called on to look at the security offered to his
constituents and he said that the rate in aid was an insuffi-
cient one. He was one of those who voted in the last session
for a property tax in Ireland. He thought it was but an act
of justice ; he wished the act had passed, end these fiscal
difficulties would not occur. As to the mused taxes, it was
a different question. There was every inducement to en-
mange those who had property in Ireland to live there,
and nothing would induce him to propose sr
seamed taxes. As at present advised, he could not say that
he thought that the people of England ought to be called
upon to snake further advances anima on most approved
security. The security which government offered was one
which be could sot Inept. They must bring forward some
other plan.

Mr. MONSELL trusted that hon. gentlemen would pause
before they consented tothe proposition submitted to them by
ent, for he thought he should be able to show toem
ft°l7nstr:Ajast. The ministerial proposition was to lay an addi-
tional tax on all rateable property for the relief of
certain discredited districts. lie objected to that proposition—
first, on the ground of its insufficiency for the pupae. in-
tended. Did any one believe that 350,0001., the sans which
lit wu expected the rate would produce, would be Baldest

EVENING, MARCH a., 1 ,9..
.m
tit* inairidelstissasihltirsill 'A ' I
mail, tei eavelEak ear*,
.11
Ido not el Mg It e. w . I wee
Oren again tho. brobieb; people,
of Mlievelesk I , Imp,. rellentett sac
A nothing Whe dose thipeeLL( I Mink
were Mims eir, tint that ;imillideld—Albleri.)
Bat I must remind those ham that that. were
also great ezertioes nude to stimulate. the indutry of Ire-
Watsplant bis _in a better gosition to withstand faults
at the sued datum. Meer hear.) I hold in my