The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-27 00:00:00

ORDER OF BUSINESS.

Lord J. RI!! SSELL moved that the standing orders re-
specting committees of ways and means be read.
This having been done,
Calmat SISTHORP expressed a hope that ample time
would ba afforded for a full disenevion of the budget, and
particularly of the legacy duty.
Lord J. RUSSELL they awned that so much of the

standing orders se rendered it neces.ary to give notice of
committees of ways and means on the previous Friday be
dispensed with during the present week.
Agreed to.
L trd J. RUSSELL said he bad promised the right bon.
gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) that he would on this day
state at what time her Majesty's government would propose
their measure with respect to the government of India. The
house would not be surprised to hear that it was their deter-
mination to proceed with the propositions contained in the
resolutions which had been prepared by his right hon.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not to let those
resolutions be interrupted by any other business which the
government might bring forward. From what he (the
noble lord) had observed, he trusted that the whole of the
material parts of the budget would have been considered
and decided upon by the house in the course of a month ;
and therefore, in moving the adjournment of the house for
the Whitsun holidays, notice would be given at what time
between the 20th and 30th of May his right hon. friend the
President of the Board of Control would be prepared to
bring forward his propositions.
Mr. DISRAELI, as there had been some doubt upon
the matter, bogged to ask when the debate upon the income
tax would be resumed.
Lord J. RUSSELL answered that the adjourned discus
'ion would be taken on Thursday.
THE VINEGAR DUTY.
Mr. FAOAN asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether, in the event of foreign vinegar being admitted
into this country duty free, it was the intention of govern-
ment to remove the excise restrictions on the manufacture
of the article, and to allow a drawback oa the malt used by
the manufacturer, so as to enable him to enter into free
competition with the foreign maker ?
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
then in a position to give a positive answer, but lie would
take care that the parties interested should be informed of
his intention before his proposition was discussed.
THE LEGACY DUTY.

Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that on Thursday he should
put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer before
the adjourned debate with regard to his measure for the
extension of the legacy duty to real property was taken ;
and that was, whether all corporate property was to be in-
I eluded in the measure or not? Many persons would be
I willing to accept the extended legacy duty in lieu of that
which they had expected; and they ought to know on
what footing it would stand before they went into the qua-
tion of the income tax. (Hear, hear.)
Lord A. VANE begged to ask the right hon. gentleman
a question with regard to the legacy duty on property under
settlements. The hon. member for West Surrey seemed
to treat this as a question of elder sons; and he (Lord A.
Vane) wished to know whether if an elder son inherited
property charged with settlements for the benefit of his
mother or her younger children, the legacy duty of the
whole would be charged to him ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHECIVER said be
could easily understand the anxiety of the noble lord on
this point. (Great laughter.) He presumed that in the
case which the noble lord had supposed, the elder son would
be liable to pay legacy Linty only on the net value of the
property to which he had succeeded; and that the persons
who were entitled under settlements would be liable, as
they were now, to pay duty according to the interest which
they lad in the estate. (Hear, hear.)
POLICE OF ENGLAND AND WALES.
Mr. RICE rose to move for a select committee to consi-
der the expediency of adopting a more uniform system of
police in England and Wales. At present the greatest
diversity prevailed in different counties, according to the
decision of the magistrates. He referred to the in-
troduction of the metropolitan police by Sir R. Peel,
from which the greatest benefits had flowed. The
recent prevalence of riots at elections proved the
necessity of a better organisation of the police.
The suppression of riots ought not to be left to the military,
who could only act under orders ; while the poke could
go among a mob and use persuasion with them. A French
writer bore testimony to the excellence of the London
police, and to the support which they derived from the too-
relation at large. In 1839 a commission was issued to con•
eider the best means of establishing a constabulary force for
England and Wales. The report of that commission
contained some most valuable information, and recom-
mended that the force should be trained and placed under a
uniform system, as a means of giving greater securitr to
property, and freeing the country from mendicancy. The
result was the bill of 1839 and 1840 establishing the county
constabulary. It had been adopted in 29 counties, partially
se in 6, and not at all in 22. There had been three subse-
quent acts, and a bill was now before the house for consoli-
dating their provisions. This bill provided for the payment
of pariah constables, though the object of the original Con-
stabulary Act was to supersede them; and there was great
objection to a mixed description of force. The time
was come for the adoption of a general system, which
ought to be formed on the responsibility of the government.
He believed the inquiry he proposed would have the con-
sent of the government as it had of the late government ;
and he trusted that a good measure would be the result.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Lord LOVAINE spoke to the good effect of the system
in Northumberland. One difficulty in the way of its ex-
tension was the variety of jurhdictions which existed in
some counties.

Mr. RICH hoped that with uniformity of practice there
would be combined a certain independence of action in
certain localities. There was one other point which he
trusted the government would consider. The armed consta-
bulary of Ireland was the molt perfect body of police in
the world ; and though he had no wish to see an armed
pollee introduced generally in this country, he thought it
essential that every policeman should be practised in the use
of arms. He hoped that would not he lost sight of.
Sir J. PAKINOTON thought the subject one rather for
the execative government than for a committee. Nothing
maid be more thoroughly unsatisfactory than the state of
the police of England at this moment.
Viscount PALMERSTON admitted that this was 'a sub-
ject on which the government might fairly originate a mea-
sure, but he thought that, with the view of collecting in-
formation, and of showing the advantages which had arisen
in some places from the establishment of a police force, and
the inconveniences which had arisen (in others from the
want of one, the committee moved for by his hon;friend
would be a very useful preliminary to legislation on the
subject. (Hear, hear.)
Captain SCOSELL hoped the inquiry would be a real
one and not a foregone conclusion. He admitted that all
the towns should have a police, but not that every hill and
valley In the country required policemen. Even a force of ens
policeman to every thousand of the population would maks
twenty or thirty thousand men in all, and throw immense
expense on the country. He hoped that education would
precede police.
Lord D. STUART was very glad that the Home Secre-
tary had assented to this motion, believing that a great
deal of useful information would be elicited by the inquiry,
and that it would tend to the establishrient of a police
force in all the counties which were now without that ad-
vantage ; but he would deprecate such a step if he thought
it was the intention of the government to establish a gene-
ral police for the whole country, emanating from the me-
tropolis and placed immediately under the Home Office.
Mr. MACKIE moved that the inquiry should be extended
to Scotland.
Mr. HASTIE seconded the amendment.

trouble the house with some additional observations. The
noble lord the mensber for Loudon, when recently int•odue- •
ing the subject of education, laid dos n certain principles '
on the subject, in which he (Mr. Hamilton) entirely con-
curred. The noble lord stated in the first place that the !
odvcstion of the workiug classes in this country was con- •
dusted by the great religious bodies assisted by the state,
dad expressed his opinion that they acted rightly in insist-
log on religious training in the schools. In conformity with
the principle thus propounded by the noble lord, they I
Owl that in this country the education of the work-
keg classes was conducted through the instrumentality
of the National Society, the British and Foreign, and the
Congregational Sotieties. The Roman catholic, hail sepa-
rate schools. In all except the last named the reading of I
the holy scriptures in school was an indispensable condi-
tion, and even in the Jews' schools the reading of the
Old Testament was required. Now, it was remarkable that
In Ireland every condition that was considered indispensable I
is this country formed an inseparable bar to the receipt of
any aid from the state, and the very course that the noble
lord insisted upon as indispensable to religious training was
that course which of all others was considered inapplicable in
Ireland. At all event., if the Irish a yatem were extended
to this country, this much could not be disputed, that no
clergyman of the church of England could insist on the use
of Hie holy scriptures in school during the time for the
general instruction of the children. But the system was
likely to be carried to a greater extent because steps were
being taken by which the parent of any child might insist
on the exclusion of any book containing matter of which he
did not approve. Instead of referring to the rules of the
board he would give the house an illustration of the work-
ing of the system in Ireland. The incumbent of it parish
in Limerick, a warm advocate of the system, went to a
school in which there were GO children, protestant and
catholic and where portions of the holy scriptures were
read daily. He applied to the commissioners for aid for this
school, but was informed that the reading of the scriptures
was incompatible with the rules. This was confirmed on
appeal by Lord Clarendon. The it by which he

... argument , .
hopedi: to sustain this motion was that the clergy
conscientious objections to the system, and
many considered adherence to it 83 inconsistent with
their ordination vows. In the next place, it was urged
that the children of the Church of England could not be
educated in the schools. If dissenters sod Roman catholic,
were allowed separate schools, it appeared hard to the
clergymen of the church of England that the church chil-
dren should not be placed in an equally favourable posi-
tion. It was farther urged that the Irish system could
not be fairly called an united system, and here he would
remark, that the Roman catholic, and dissenters were
as much opposed to indifferentism as the Church of
England. The object of the promoters of the na-
tional system of education in Ireland was to com-
bine the instruction of children of different reli-
gious denominations in the same schools, and thus to pro-
mote good feeling and harmony in the country. But that
object had not been attained, nor, under the system in its
present form, which was one of compromise, was it attain-
able, that being rendered impossible by the deep conscien-
tious religious feelings of both protestants and Roman
catholic, in regard to the religious instruction of their
children. That being so, it became them to look the diffi-
culty in the face and consider whether they should not
abandon the attempt to maintain a combined system, snd
substitute one that would meet the conscientious objections
of all parties. it was a mistake to suppose that the estab-
lishment of a separate system would produce ill-feeling be-
tween the people of different religious denominations; on
the contrary, he believed that the best way to promote good
feeling was to respect the religious objections of all. Of this
they might be certain, that nothing had ever been gained,
and nothing would ever be gained, by unworthy concessions.
(Hear, hear.) He contended that the national system of
education in Ireland was not a scriptural system, even is
regard to the scriptural extracts which were read in the
schools, though it was understood to be so—and this he sub-
mitted was another reason for inquiry. Again, • majority
of the schools in Ireland were Roman catholic schools, and
the doctrinal tenets of the Roman catholic church were
avowedly taught in those schools. He might say, then, that
the system was one that discouraged protestantism and en-
couraged Roman catholicism. He was not now expressing
any opinion whether it was right that the majority of the
schools should be Roman catholic, but what he said was that
if such was the fact it should be distinctly understood, and
that money should not continue to be voted year by year
seder the idea that it was for the support of neutral
schools. It was evident from Mr. Stanley's letter in 18977
that the original intention was that the scripture extract
should be read in the schools when the Bible was not used
but the reports showed that in many of the schools in
eluding some of the model schools, these extracts weseno
read during the hours of religious instruction, and in this
respect also there was such a departure from the original
system as to justify inquiry. Again with regard to the
local funds—Mr. Secretary Stanley in his letter stated that
local funds were indispensable to the granting of public
aid. That he regarded as • wise decision, for he was con-
vinced that no system of education could prosper without
local co-operation ; but the recent reports of the inspectors
Mated that in three out of nine districts the local teachers
did not re rive from local fees 11. a year, and
by subsequent accounts it would appear that their
rendition was becoming worse—eighty-five of the teachers,
astioedkl. to - Mr. *al the inspector, hat •

naving less
than 1041. • day each. This proved that there was not that
local aid which it was understood was indispensable before
them could be participation is the government grant.
Them there appeared to be no uniformity of rule in regard
to religious instruction. The model school in Dublin ap-
peared to be is no way uniform with the local schools or
with the model schools in the country. He had no wish to
laapute any blame to the commissioners in respect to the
statements in their reports; but if any hon. gentleman
would look into the appendices he would see that there woo
ao sufficient account given of the operations of the national
system, and this absence of what be held to Se neces-
sary information in the official documents was another
reason for inquiry. He had now endeavoured to show
what the system was, and the ground of his
motion. He had shown that there was the issue of
fact to be determined—first, whether the system was a
slatted system ; secondly, whether it was • scriptural
; and, thirdly, whether it was a neutral system ?
Tetrad shown that the schools were, in the majority of in
stances, Roman catholic—that the model schools were not
models of the general schools—and that the reports of the
cuomissioners were not satisfactory; and having done so,
he contended that he had advanced ample grounds for his
motion. He proposed this inquiry in no hostile spirit.
That house was the guardian of the public pane, and when
they saw so large a sum as 2,000,0001. expended
upon this system, it behoved them to inquire
how far that system had succeeded, and whe-
ther it had really tended to promote concord,
good feeling, and loyalty amongst the Irish people. (Hear,
hear.) He trusted that an arrangement would result from
this inquiry that would be satisfactory to all parties. All
parties in Ireland were anxious to have the question
settled, and none were desirous of exacting unreasonable
terms. What they desired was that the benefits of the
system should be extended and the advantages of education
more generally disseminated. That, however, could only
be domsl7 respecting the religious scruples of the people.
He Weld call attention to one fact before sitting down
which had been recently published. It had been known
that for some time Sir Charles Buxton bad entertained ,

The motion, as amended, was then agreed to. strong bias in favour of the naked system, but conceived
COMMUNICATION WITH IRELAND. that its advantages were impeded by the protestant
Mr. H. HERBERT moved for a select committee to clergy. Having visited Ireland, and eenained the operation
examine and report upon the present state of the communi- of the system, he had come to the conclusion that the
cation between England and Ireland, as regards the saps- clergy were right, and that some alteration of the system
ditious conveyance of the mails. the transport of troops, was necessary in order to meet their objections. A noble
mei the convenience afforded to the public, and to the Irish lord holding a high office in the government had stated in
saimmatatives in particular in their attendance on this another place, in reference to the objections of the pretes-
beige, and to report what improvements modern science can tent clergy, that he could scarcely repress the indignation
whimemt to establish • more speedy and commodious own- he felt at seeing the only effort made for many years to im-
Militon between the two countries. He said, it having prove the permanent condition of the Irish people thwarted.
imated to him that there would be no objection on He (Mr. Hamilton) alluded to the observations made by
AO /Wet of the government to the appointment of a coin- the Earl of Aberdeen. Possibly the noble lord wu not now
MUM' be would not trouble the house with an lengthened in a condition to pay that acknowledgment which he
elliffieks. He wished only to state his prises jesis ease for otherwise would do to the motives of those who
frentsliy, which was that while communications with other advanced conscientious objections, and might be
parte of the world had been repeatedly accelerated those glad to see extended to matters of religion
with Ireland had actually deteriorated within the last few that kind of indifference which characterised radical con-
years. In 1860 an inquisy was instituted into the parties- servatism or conservative radicalism. (Oh, oh.) That noble
con-
years. of the contracts between the City of Dublin Steam- lord would not, however, find the people of Ireland ready
Packet Company and the government of that day. The re- to adopt his views. He (Mr. Hamilton) was speaking now
cartnieof the committee exonerated the government from any for the Roman catholic. as well as for the protestants of
in the matter, and it concluded with an expression of Ireland ; both of wkom were as deeply affected by religious
regret, in which he meat heartily concurred, that the question considerations as any people in the world, and would not
should ever have been regarded as a departmental one. be induced to forego them by the noble earl's observations.
When the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) introduced his bill The bon. member then concluded by submitting his motion.
for the abolition of the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland, one Mr. WIORAM, in wending the resolution, said he be-
of the main argument. on which he relied was the establish- lieved if they were to interfere with that which was now
seat of improved communications between the two coon- an established system, they would provoke great hostility
tries. He thought, therefore, this question coula not be to the movement in which they were engaged, and injure
viewed by the government as one which had reference those schools which were undoubtedly producing great
solely to the transmission of the mails. With regard to the good in the country. The object was not hostile to the
conveyance of troops between the two countries, it had evi- national society, but to extend it, so that others, especially
dently a most intimate connexion with the question of the church schools might be partakers of its advantages.
defence. The vessels at present employed were utterly in- Sir J. YOUNG expressed his regret that he was unable
adequate to the purpose intended. He trusted that, under to concur in the motion. The speech of the hon. member
the circumstances, there would be no objection to the ap- had been characterised by great moderation, except, per-
pointment of a select committee. haps, his observations with regard to Lord Aberdeen. He
After a short discussion the motion was agreed to. could enure him that he (Sir J. Young) approached the
NATIONAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATION (IRELAND). question in no spirit of indifferentism. He was certain,
Mr. HAMILTON rose, pursuant to notice, to move for a too, that Lord Aberdeen was actuated by no such feeling,
select committee to inquire into the working of the national and that there was. no man in the empire who was more
system of education in Ireland, with the view of ascertain- ready on all occasions to pay respect to the conscientious
log how far the instructions contained in Mr. Secretary convictions of others. (Cheers.) The hon. member had
Stanley's letter of 1830 have been followed or departed made several valuable admissions. He had admitted that
from by the commissioners, or in the practical operation of the state system of secular education had raised the general
the system t. and whether and to what extent a united or standrad and was a good one, whereas in a paper widely
combined education has been attained under the national eireViated and endorsed by very high authority the direct
rem
; and also to inquire whether, by any farther
eaten- reveue had been stated. The hon. member had also ad-
or modification of the rules framed by the commis- 'netted that the national system was one of the institutions
stoners or otherwise,the conscientious objections which many of the country which ought not to be destroyed. (Hear,
of the people of Ireland entertain to the system as at present tear.) The hon. gentleman had referred to a letter from
carried into operation might be reasonably obviated, so as to Mr. Stanley (Lord Derby) ; but there was nothing in the
enable them to partake of the public grant and render the original instructions which made the scripture extract' a
system more comprehensive and national. The boa. mem . part of the secular instruction. In fact the scripture ex-
bee said be would state as briefly as possible the remade tracts were not included in the list of books ; and to this
that induced him to move for a 'elect committee to inqr,irn day they were only recommended for use as an introduction
into the working of the national system of en nen- to the study of the Holy Scriptures. It was quite true that
tion. He had felt it his duty to press the in some cases local contributions had been dispersed with ;
matter r,n the last parliament, but in a soriewhat but while there had been no general relaxation of the rule,
different. shape, having then moved for an address it was evident that there were cases where it would have
to the crown, setting forth that large numbers of her Ma- been impossible to insist upon it, because some of the din.
jesty'a subjects entertained conscientious objection! to the trice which required education most were quite unable to
aational system of education, and praying that such =odd): contribute anything. Looking at the ordeal through
cations might be made as would remove theiv coascientieus which Ireland bad lately paned, this was warmly
objections, or, at least, that some means of Scriptural ado. a topic that could be urged with much force
cation might be granted. To that motion 200 members had against the national system. (Hear, hear.) With
given their support. It bad been his intention to confine respect to the accounts, if the hon. gentleman would far-
bimself to • statement of the grounds upon whit)* he made nigh him with any particular cases, there should be the
his motion, but an amendment—which, by the way, had moat accurate and searching inquiry made into them. The
mysteriously disappeared from the paper—b.ad been no- most important part of the subject was the last ; and but
tired by the hon. member for Oldham, exteo ding the system for that the house would have beard very little about the
England, which made it neceseary that he Aesid rut. He (Sir J. Youg) believed that a large now

i her of the laity and three fourths of the clergy
of the Irish church w. re opposed to the national
system. He did not shrink from avowing his be.
ha in the great respectability of these parties, and in
' their greet claim urn the consideration of parliament.
From the Venerable Primate down to the meanest of those
i who att. nded meetings at the Rotunda or Exeter-hall, he
' believed them to be conscientious and sincere. lie believed
there was uo difference between hicuselfand them ea to the
end they had ia view, but simply as to the means. (Roar,
bear.) They wished to draw upon the funds of the state for
, means to support schools in which they should be enabled to
I make the children read the authorised version of the &rip-
, tures ; and they argued that the attend ince at such schools
would be voluntary. On that word turned much of the
t question. They must never forget that two-thirds of the
people belonged t i the Romiah church—a church which de-
pended upon authority and required implicit submission to
I its teaching. Now that church discountenanced the unre-
stricted use of the Scriptures, especially by young lessons;
and they also objected to the authorised version. What,
tberef re, was asked of the state was that it should afford
the means out of the public money to establish schools in
which the Irish people should be compelled against their
conscientious convictions is read the Scriptures. (Bear.)
In many parts of Ireland there would only be one school,
and so great was the desire of the poor Irish peasants to give
their children a good education, that they would use those
schools even at what they felt to be a risk to their faith and
morals. (Hear, hear.) They would also be liable to the
fear of offending their employers, or of appearing ungrate-
ful to those opulent protestant gentlemen who often
afferded them such substantial relief, and who might have
• wish to spread a knowledge of the Bible. N iw, if they
frightened or bribed the poor into sending their
children to these schools reluctantly and against their
convictions, they would be violating their consciences,
and interfering with the principles of toleration. ()fear,
hear ) The system had been established 21 years,
in order to extend to rho poor of Ireland a system of edu-
cation from which should be banished even the suspicion of
proselytism. At this moment there were 520,000 chil-
dren attending these schools ; and, notwithstanding
the millions which had received their education in
them, there had never been a single case of proselytism.
(Cheers.) Though the population had decreased pro-
biddy 1,600,000, the number in the schools had increased
70,000—a proof of the increasing anxiety of the people to
give education tr their children. Ile agreed in the import-
ance of religious instruction being given in the schools.
This was the case ; and the books provided, though not
forced upon any school, but voluntarily adopted by
them, formed a united course of education in Ire-
land—a species of national literature—breathing the true
spirit of piety. (Hear, hear.) They formed a bond of
union amongst the pupils of all religions; and of the thou-
sands of teachers that had been trained in those schools,
there had been no instance of a religious dispute occurring
among them. He had long watched the system, and was
convinced that it was the only means of establishing a really
united education. The national system was in reality •
united education ; it was founded on the best precepts of
Christianity ; and any attempt to subvert it was an attempt
to destroy one of the greatest goods that Providence had
ever allowed human wisdom to establish. (Cheers.)
Mr. NAPIER denied that the object of the motion was
to subvert the national system. The mover had disclaimed
the object in the most positive terms; his object
was, as the motion declared, to inquire into the
working of the system. If the system were such
as was described by the right honourable baronet,
the result of an inquiry would bo an advantage. Why
should the protestants of Ireland be debarred from a share
of the rational grant, such as was enjoyed by the protes-
tant' of this country ? This was denied to protestants in
any part of Ireland, if they put forward that which they
believed to be a principle of the reformation—the unre-
stricted reading of the scriptures. In the trust deeds of
the Wesleyan schools in this country and other sects, the
reading of the scriptures was made imperative ; and they
received the national grant. Why, then, should a member
of the established church of Ireland be debarred from put-
ting forward his claim to the reading of the scriptures
He challenged inquiry, and contended that when they
were offering education to the whole people, they had no
right to exclude any portion simply because hoe could not
agree with them in some conscientious conviction. He
hoped that the church would rather perish, and sacrifice any
gift they might offer it and its temporalities altogether, than
that it should for one moment tamper with that which
was the first basis of the reformation and the foundation of
all their hopes.
Viscount MONCK deprecated the angry tone of the dis-
cussion. He believed they would do a serious injury to the
cause of education in Ireland, if they gave the people of
that country any reason to believe that their con-
duct in reference to the question depended on which
side of the Speaker's chair they sat. He did
not believe that his right honourable friend who
had just sat down wished to destroy education, but two
speeches more damnatory to that system than that speech
and that of his hon. friend he had never had the good
or the ill fortune to hear. Believing that the
system was working well, and that no alteration was either
necessary or expedient, he should vote against the motion.
Mr. LUCAS said that in as far as he could understand
the noble lord and the right hon. baronet who had spoken
on the opposite aide, they had two opinions on education—
an English opinion and an Irish opinion. He (Mr. Lucas)
thought the English opinion sound, and the Irish opinion
unsound. As to what was called the national system of
education in Ireland, he believed that it existed only
because it was one thing in :name and another in
practice. (Hear, hear). The system, whatever it
might be in name, was in substance a separate
system, and it existed only because it was a separate sys-
tem. (Hear.) If by any calamity it could become a united
system, he believed it would be the greatest calamity that
could possibly hefal Ireland. He agreed in most that had
fallen from gentlemen on that (the opposition) side of the
house, but he had great difficulty in agreeing to their mo-
tion, because he could not satisfy himself that the objects
they had really in view were in accordance with its terms.
The motion itself was perfectly reasonaSle, and
had his hearty assent, but he dissented from the
purpose which had been avowed during a former debate
on this subject. He wished to know clearly how the matter
stood, because he would not deny to others what he de-
manded for himself, the right of educating their children
in their own religious tenets, while at the same time he re-
gretted that at present the schools in which Roman catholic'
were educated were established under false pretences. It
would be far more satisfactory to him if there were separate
schools forßoman catholic', presbyterians, and for the church
of England, and he thought that some system of that kind
was the only ones that parliament ought to sanction. He
would now tell the house why he had a difficulty in voting
on this motion. In the former debate it was stated that
the fundamental principle of the system then advocated
was that the children should be daily instructed in the Holy
Scriptures. Ho wished to know if that was what they
wanted now, because, if it was, he was prepared
to give them the most bitter and strenuous opposition.
The hon. gentleman proceeded to refer to the prominent
course which Lord Clancarty had taken on this question.
That nobleman was a shining light on the question in
another place; and it was noticeable that he took the chair
at most of the meetings of the Irish Church Education
' Society, and of the Church Mission. There were six Church
Education Society's schools on his estate; and it was im•
portaat to understand what was the object which such
friends of education," as his lordship was, had in the
proceedings which they took, and in the support which
they gave, to such motions as the pretent. He (Mr. Lucas)
held in his hand • document, signed " Clancarty," dated
Jan. 8, 1853, so that it referred to present facts and inten-
tions; and this would show distinctly the views of the
nobleman whom hon. gentlemen on that (the opposition)
side of the House of Commons accepted as their representa-
tive. The document was a letter expressing approval
of his lordship's agent's conduct in regard to the
schools in connexion with the Church Education Society;
and in this letter, after conveying an opinion that the
children of the occupiers of the land ought to be raised
from their state of ignorance, his lordship went on to ob-
serve that " favours" would be shown to those tenants who
refused to be dictated to by the priests, and who allowed
their children to attend the schools provided on the estate
—those being the Church Education Society's schools, as
distinguished from the national schools. What was this but
the offer of a remission of rent to the tenants who would
consent to the risk of their children's souls being destroyed.
In the same letter his lordship observed that he had been
informed that the priest wanted more sand and stone for •
new school (national), but that he (Lord Clancarty) would
only consent to giving the materials on condition that the
priest would let the children have free access to the Holy
Scriptures—that is would adopt, not the national system,
but his lordship's system. The hon. gentleman went on to
quote from another document, dated 1844, and signed by
Lord Clancarty, in which his lordship communicated with
his agent to much the same effect, and referred to the
" hanging gale of rent" as an inducement to the tenants to
adopt the schools of the Church Education Society's ;sys-
tem. The hon. gentleman further quoted from the letter
of a tenant to Lord Clancarty's agent, in which he
mentioned that though he displeased his priest, he
always sent the children to his lordship's schools " when
the weather permitted." These documents (continued the
hon. gentleman) would sufficiently show the animus with
which his lordship entered on the cease of education in
Ireland. If the assertions were not facts, let them be con-
tradicted; if explanation was wanted, let hie lordship ex-
plain. Lord Clancarty represented the hon. gentlemea who
would vote for this motion, and the motion was to be te-
ed in the light which such facts threw upon it. If he
Mr. Lucas) could thick that the putties was made in good
h he should regret the opposition which had been
raitd
offered to it by the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Young).
He felt no confidence whatever in the management of the
National Board as regarded the future. The national
System was a system which was entirely dependent on the
hands in which it might be momentarily placed. It was a
system not at all dependent on the principle on which it
was professedly based; but on ,the accidental siministra-
tionjof changing parties. A change of men implied, in
that board, a change of system; and he confessed he felt
no confidence whatever in the arrangement. There were
at' present rumours that the protestant Archbishop of
I Diiblin (Dr. Whately) had threatened to resign his seat at
the board unless his good will and pleasure were uncon-
ditionally done ; and that the late Lord Chancellor (Sir F.
I Blackburn) had joined in the threat unless the in-
troduction of certain books, Dr. Whately's books,
into certain schools, were made compulsory. It
was supposed that if the resolutions pressed by
these distinguished
,;persons were not carried the
board would be broken up, so far as the retirement of the
;• archbishop could break it up ; and this circumstance indi-
' sated the uncertainty of the whole system—tbc fact being,
that if the books in question were introduced, the support
of the Roman catholic' would, as a necessary consequence,
be withdrawn from the board. (Rear, hear.) The viatica

tpsN was, would the House of Commons lend its sanction to
the prism ijdo of separate education? A united system of
edwat,oo mei impossible in practice; and, even if pow
Ada. weed he dangerous: but, though he held this opt-
sin, the teeerests of the catholic poor of Ireland were too
send to be trilled with ; cad he certainly would nut
ace thie Gamines give any vote to sanction a large grant of
aseaey for the purpose of sustaining proselytising schools,
int o which children were to be trepanned by fanatical or
eseetupelons landlords, who could use the screw of a
ti tena,eing gate." (Hear, hear )
Lord NA.t' r-Jrctted that the h n. gentleman who had
jest set down should have introduced a personal question
uto the de hate, and shoulei have made on attack ot which
he heal riven nu notice, on so estimable a nobleman as Lord
Clnearty.
NT. 1.17CM/interrupted, and stated that he had men-
tienel the sulijec: to the hon n hat day, and had
been assere.l that no further notice was necessary.
Lon HAAS thought that whether or nor, an attack ad
that had on a nobleman who bad done such great publie
clad private good could not be properly introduced into •
&bate like the present. (Hear, hear). And most assuredly
be (Lord .Nsies) utterly disbelieved that his lordship had
ever male use of so improper an influence as that which
sew called " landlord influence," or had ever used the
...crew" of a " hanging gate" for the purpose of intimi-
dating his tenantry into an adoption of his views
is p.,:ird to the best system of education in Ireland.
(Hear, hear). With regard to the motion, he (Lord
saw) would give it his cordial approbation ; and he be-
lieved he would be perfectly consistent in taking that
tonne. The right hem gentleman opposite quoted from a
reply which he (Lord Naas) had made, when Secretary for
Ireland, to a question put with respect to this subject; and
trots that rely the right hon. gentlemen bad endeavoured
to show that he (Lord Non) could aot now vote for this
motive. Hut the right hon. gentleman had only quoted an
part of the arewer. (Hear.) Ile certainly had said that the
teen government was cot disposed to propose any alteration
is the eye; eni of national Wm atiou in Ireland: but he had
COW on to say, " if any gentleman on either side of the house
should show that the objects for which that system hail beer,
ellifiliArti had not been fully carried out, and should point
oat where alterations or amendments would he improve.
wets, so far as they would more completely fulfil the
original purpose, thea it would be the duty of the govern-
ment not iany to acquiesce in, but to assist in any such in-
quiry.- (Hear.) having said that much, what other vote
could he now give than oue in favour of the motion ? (Hear.)
He believed such an inquiry would be attended with a most
beeeticial edict. He believed the tenon the national eye.
tem of education in Ireland had obtained so strong a hold
ea the oh, lions and sympathies of the people was that it
was wit a combined system of education. This was proved
by a reference to the accounts of the commissioners. It
appeared from their general summary that of 491,927 chil-
dres attending the schools on 31st March, 18-52, 24,651 were
anthem or the established church, 421,717 were Roman
plantain 40,61 S Presbyterians. end 1,908 other sects ; that
the proportion of protestant' of all sects to the Roman ca-
tholic* was 24 to 427 ; and that of the schools there were
..!.775 under Roman catholic, and 147 under the manage-
ment ot clergymen of the established church, while there
were only s under the joint management of the protestant
and Ronan catholic clergy. Those who had witnessed the
workout 01 the system must admit that it bad been
the means of diffusing woong the people books
of a superior order and instruction in all secular
matters necessary for the people according to their
station ; but the question which now arose was whether it
was sot possible to make it more really national, so as to
enlist in it. !avour the sympathies of the whole of the popu-
lation. Ile idsclaimed all idea of making it a proselytising
system ; but it could not be denied that the effect of the
rain laid down hail been to deprive a large minority of its
adimatages. (Hear, hear.) And when, after 20 years,
they found the conscientious opposition of that minority
continued, it would be unworthy of the house and the go-
Moen at to refuse to enter into an inquiry whether the
system might not be se modified as to remove the objections
upon which that opposition was founded. (Hear, hear.)
Sr J. GRAHAM having been associated with Lord
Derby is the administration of Earl Grey when this system
or national education was founded, and having always taken
the deepest interest in its success—having amidst every
variety of circumstances uniformly supported it, and dif-
fering from the noble lord who bad just sat down in
thinking that there was an attack hardly concealed on the
system itself in the present motion, and believing that
system to be in danger, he should not think he would be
discharging his duty if he did not offer a few words. He
had been anxious to hear from the noble lord some unequi-
vocal declaration with reference to the pertineat grades
put by the hon. member for Meath (Mr. Lac..)—he wished
to hear it distinctly stated whether or aot there was an Sho
opposition side of the house and on the put of the prawn=
of this motion, a desire to suggest for the Church Education
Society in Inland a separate grant. He knew not what
might be the present intention, but he was sere that at as
&mat period those who promoted this Milieu awnight,
when they brought forward a similar modes nn • presto's
occasion, did entertain that wish and did mit metal it.
(Haar, hear.) Now with reference to the poopondisquiry,
it was absolutely necessary to consider ids* bad been
urged by those who had taken a part in the abate. He
thought he was not wroag when he beard, or asight ho
hem] the hoe. member for Dublin University agate Sr
night,that the time had arrived when it was mairavy
abandon the " phantom" of mixed 'education. Suety die
hon. gentleman and that esprearion—(bear, bad}—and if
he did then could be no doubt of his object mad motive is
bringing forward :he question. (Hear, hear.) Then again
the hon. and learned ',edemas the member for Catatin
who wended the motion pat the claim of the parochial
clergy of Ireland as high as this—that it was not only their
duty, but their right, to administer religious education te ,
the whole of their flaks—that was to the children of the
whole of their parishioners. Perhaps this declaration might
he in simordenes with the views of the hon. member for
Heath, but the bee. gentleman said that he was anxious
that the poor of Ireland should be considered. Ile (Sir J.
Graham) was actuated in resisting the motion by the same
motive. (Hear.) It was out of consideration for the poor
of Inland—the peat body of the people in that country—
that be wee lamely acs imss that the system of mixed
education should be preserved. He relied on the facts of
the case, and contended that in the main, considering
the cireumstaaties of Ireland, and the difficulties
which these eisewasstaans occasioned, it was •

rof mixed _edemas& that bed Oinanded to the
eteat that its authors could lose_ espeeted. Then
were in that country 625,000 ehillees edumMed under that
system, of which number 70,000 moot pretestasta. WI of
that number of reassume 24,110 mem of the cher* of
England, the rest being prisdpoLly Preehnsdams.
And what had been the result of this system of lied
location? He believed thaws was no other summery,
in Europe at this moment where education was !
ducted on so large a scale, or where he would "ay
withstanding religions differences, Scriptural ksowrmmmo
was so widely diffused by teaching as in Ireland. (Hear.) Ho
contended that a clergyman of the established church, the
patron of a school under the national system in Ireland,
had at this time every opportunity of administering to the
youth in that school, of which he was the patron, nota
instruction in the scriptures, but instruction in the
catechms, and all the doctrines of his church, to the sets
most extent he could desire. If it were set amain the
hoer+ of secular instruction, day by day he Ma the gyps
tanity and the right of adounisteriog Maim im-
struction to all as members of his shwa who
attended his school. And that right wes aid yemalier
to him. Every *did member of all the Mutant
persuasions—prearhs eideelie *the
right of attending shed ma sellednistarks In-
struction, day bylaw, if be theet* to del t what
really was the peetssiss el the OM* Ilasistbs *Way ?
It Will neither use uer Ito Ibis that they should be
put on the sane *elk* me the disentsra of Eagles/
la the cam of the dimming et Ibeglitede it they ses4 Mar
children to the unbind =hide thin they mint be Imo&
the church eatables, air that we the Nub et the national
schools, and they smut mesh. imabumetm In
with its rules. The state of the sellamal eibeeheilask=
wit exactly the reverse. The sheaves mint set be lasight
the church entedidess, or remise rayless isibusess in..
which the pet dissent, malls Neel ablest wee tun obtain
kid ir,mt the public purse, ihr the sepses of tatelibig all
whochouto aitsed the sabeelassil be. the sedan of any
creed the Lea proyertioa of the NM* is Islied were
'tempted. The me, therefore, we the reveres et that of
then nimbi. Wayland, ad be warned the hems
that if they eggeod to this sedis, which
Ommtea
alder the omen pretext of absofirmiag the p
of mixed embeseles, te establith s quint of separate
putts, that the issesesenie weld be that the claim
sit up by the homemaker be Keith would be irresistible,
sad trim die lima esthetes ens be treated in proportion
to their .ambers, los the largest grant, and the smallest
amount be ghost te the church of England; and you
would have the flame se religions discord spread through
the country, and the proselytising spirit raging to an ex-
tent which he should be sorry to see added to the sorrows
of that country ; and he believed that instead of the peace
tad concord whkh this scheme was Intended to promote,
there would be an aggravation of the evils and sorrows el
that gauntry. He hoped, therefore, that when the success of
the system was se prosaidng ; when Lord Derby, its author,
sad who lately bed the opportunity of controlling its opera.
bon or exasstaing into its defects, told them deliberately
that he mold met aontemplate any change in the system
which MOSIdI sin be injurious; when after the experiesee
of twentrtme lure no reason had been assigned for in-
quiry on shish ieleses could be placed except in the word
of the ben. ths member for the university of
Dublin," *1 time bad come when the phantom of
mixed edoesties mit be abandoned," that phantom beins
the reality 'MI he (Sir J. Graham) had stated, namely,
that the system had been most successful, embracing in its
'Pure 1 larger native number of the youth of Ireland
than could be fowl in any other country is Europe, he
hope ii the house would feel that it would be highly inexpe-
dient to agree to this motion. (Cheers.)
Mr. WHITESIDE, who was met by loud cries of " M-
iura," and " Divide," asked for a fa and fair inquiry.
if the present system should turn out to be good, let it be
maiatained; if it could be made better, let them improve
it, sad at the sun* time gratify the lints/4We of Ireland.
(Cheers )
Mr. FAGAN moved the adjournment of the debate.
',Cnes of "Divide.")
Lord J. RUSSELL opposed the motion on the ground
that the question had already been fully discussed and was
Perfectly familiar to the house. The hon. and learned gen-
tles*. (Mr. Whiteside) wished to give protestant clergy.
met the power of reading the authorised version to Roman
embalm children, for that was implied in the "modifies-
/14%C' spoken of in the resolution. If the proposal were
,/nlated, the same liberty with respect to protestant chil-
am would have to be conceded to the Roman catholic
'nary. and the whole system would be broken up, in order
le ere 0,0001. to the establahed church, and 100,00U1. to

the Raman catholic's. There would arise another Maynooth
que-Von. only that, instead of 3u,0401. CPI sum would
Ibe 10t1.0,101. • year. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KIRK should oppose the amendment, but he greatly
• admired the seized system.. He would give the house an
example. In the Newry school there were 83 childrgn of
• the estsblished church, 123 It0013:1 cstholics, 87 presbyte-
risas of the General Assembly, 10 of the Remonstrant
Synod, and 11 Methodists. The population consisted of
3,000 of the established church, with two places of worship
and three clergymen; 10,000 Roman catholic', with three
places of worship and flee clergymen; and 7,000 presbyte-
tient and other dissenters, with eight plsces of worship and
eight minister,. The hon. gentleman concluded, amidst
much impatience, by reading a petition he had received
that day, signed by the protestant Dean of DiolllofP, and by
protestant clergymen and dissenters of all denominations,
expressing warm approval of the national system. Is these
sentiments he fully concurred.
Mr. FAGAN was certainly desirous of addressing the
house ; but, if it was the desire of the house, he would with-
' draw his amendment. (Cheers.)
' Mr. CONOLLY did not think the question had been
' sufficiently discussed. (Cries of " Divide.")
The house aceordinely nivided.
For the adjournment
Against
The house again divided :
For the motion
Against

HACKNEY-CARRIAGES BILL.
This bill was reed a mound time and ordered to be com-
mitted on Monday nest. •
bro
Theught report on the Merchant Shipping Advances Bill was
up.
SOUTH-SEA AND OTHER ANNUITIES COMMU-
TATION BILL.
The order of the dsy for the third reading of this bill
having been moved by the CIUNCELLOR of the Excels-
QLA a' - - - -

Mr. SPOONER objected to the bill being proceeded
with at that hour (it was after 1 o'clock), especially in the
absence of his bon. friend the member fur Suffolk (Sir F.
Kelly), who had given notice of an amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
honourable and learned irember for Suffolk had stated in
the early part of the evening that he would be ready to pro-
pose his amendment whenever the bill might come on.
Sir J. PAKINGTON was surprised that a bill of this
importance should be pressed between 1 and 2 o'clock in
the morning.
Mr. SPOONER moved that the house do now adjourn.
The house divided.
For the adjournment
Against
On our return to the gallery,
Sir J. PAKINOTON was on his legs, appealing to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer not to proceed with the bill,
on account of the absence of Sir F. Kelly.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said what
he had referred to took place in the hearing of the whole
house. The case was one in which every day's delay might
cause the most serious inconvenience. The whole founds
lion on which the property of the parties interested rested
was tobe altered, and the terms could not be declared till
after the bill had been passed. He really thought the bill
ought to be proceeded with.
/dr. SPOONER said he himself wished to introduce an
alteration. He observed the ether night that as the bill
stood trustees had power to alter stock without the consent
of those who had a sionary interest. That case ap-
peared to him to require a special provision.
Sir J. Y. BULLER said they should pt into a dirtassion
on the bill. He moved that the house do adjourn.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL remarked that there had
been every desire to meet the wishes of the hoc. gentlemen
opposite. For instance, a clause had been suggested by one
hon. member which would be introduced. There was a
general understanding that the bill should pass to-night,
and he hoped they would allow it to pass.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
perfectly vain for him to pass a bill of that kind to-night in
the teeth of determined opposition, bat he could not with-
draw it without observing on the character of the opposition.
The hon member for Suffolk gave notice of certain amend
manta. lie was not here ; and then hon. gentlemen came
forward with their injunctions and suppositions. He
should propose to read the bill a third time now, then to in-
sert the clauses, and then leave the further proceedings of
that bill in order to give the hen. member fee Suffolk op-
portunity to move his amendment.
The SPEAKER said the amendment of the hon. mem
ber for Suffolk might be moved on the question that the bill
do pass.
Sir J. Y. BULLER withdrew his motion for adjourn-
ment.

The clauses were then brought up, after which the
further proceedings on the bill were adjourned to this day.

FOREST OF WHITTLEWOOD.
Mr. WILSON obtained Rave to bring in a bill to disaf-
forest the forest of Wbittlewood.

The house then adjourned at twenty minutes to 2 o'clock.

Panic—Ma. 0. A. HAMILTON'S MOTION.—Lord More-
ton against, with Mr. Whitmore for; Mr. Alderman
Csbitt for, with Mr. Brockman against; Mr. Moody for,
with Bir Timothy O'Brien against.
The Hon. A. Pmmonby was sectidentally shut out on the
division.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.
HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 25.
Lard Derby's mingimat ha tonialnie an the Clergy Rearm
(Canada) MIL Agin*, 117 ; far, 71.
MAJORITY (Fannin).
M.P.H. the Duke of Fitswillna Cann
Otatendr, Onend
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- _1
Lord =IS 11lir-Di-any-
Lord Dyson,
Selma Lard Maw lard
Earl of Am Lad Toolordia

rnaires vm WacOiat—Essth

STATE or ',MAIM—The committee of the Jamaica
Association met on the 22nd instant to consider the new
budget in its relation to Jamaica, when, after deliberation,
resolutions were passed declaring that the affairs of the
colony were getting worse under the mired rule of the
Governor, Council, House of Assembly, Home government,
sad Imperial Parliament. That the necessity is urgent for
some more united legislative action, by which subjects of
reform and matters of finance may be efficiently worked
out; that these changes can only be effected by the spon-
taneous act of the House of Assembly, in concert with the
other governing powers; and that no such changes could
possibly benefit her without a guarantee from the Hans
Government to an amount covering the present debt, a
further sum to carry out judicial and other sorsomieal
reforms, and emigration on a large scale.

CLERICAL, MEDICAL, and GENERAL LIFE
ASSCILANCE SOCIETY.
VICE BONUSES has bren decimal ; et the Lest to Isobar?, 184
the PUS or E 131.1.13 Ism added to the /Views, producing a bonus
seeTtng vita tar different us tram 241 to 3$ per amt. on the pa-
mimics paid during the live pars, or from t 3 to Ell Its per cent. on
the sum maned.

iiiieMo.l7.re of prollt d.vieltl. in future ammo: the rhareho:dere
beam now profiled fne. tie AS4PRED will hereafter derive oil the
benefit* obtainable twee a mutual °dim. WITHOUT ANY LIABI-
LITY OR 11141( OP PARTNERSHIP.
One halt the life premium to the pfd dm years may remain on
atwdit.

iFIVALID LIVES mty be assured at ratca proportioned to the

pate thirty day, after pr. of of death, and sr Policies are
Indisputable except in caere of fraud.
The Lot year's Report Just printed) can be otrained he: of
°WAGE H. PINCkAktD, Resident Secretary.
90, Great Unwell-street, Liloonssaury, LAldan.

tur erairtio•