The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-20 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS', SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 20,• 1847.

be unsupportable; and the tendency of the measure would
be, he feared, to prevent the selereliat.oe to which alone
they had now to look for any extrication of Ireland from her
troubles. It was, in his opinion, an evil augury fur the
future, when they was asked to adopt &system in Ireland
which had been tried with such ill effects in England ; and
he therefore earnestly hoped that the clause would not be
agreed
Lord J. RUSSELL—The right hon. gentleman who has
moved the omission of this clause has, I think, throughout
his speech, proceeded on a fallacy. He took it for granted
that the present state of Ireland was to be its future state,
sad that we were always to experience the same
calamity and misery. Now, I admit at once, as indeed
I have admitted on several former occaaious this evasion,
that I do not think either a permanent poor-law, or any
other law, could provide permanently for • state of things so
calamitous as that which now exists. When, indeed, I hear
the right hon. gentleman say that 300,000 people are now
receive g money from the public works in Mayo, I cannot
accept that as a description of the usual state of Ireland, nor
think that this bill ia to be tried by that test. If we were
to try it by such • Met, how completely would all the right
hon. gentleman's substitutes fail ! lie says that the party
he represents agree Nat the property of Ireland should be
bur ened to any extent for the purpose of providing in-door
relief. Let us try the working of the bill by that test.
Take 700,000 heads of families, new employed upon the
public works, to represent 3,000,000 of people, and let me
ask him how he would propose to build workhouses for
3,000,000 of people ? (Loud cries of " hear, hear.") But
whilst the right hon. gentleman argued to chew bow ineffi-
cacious this provision might be, the hon. member who has
just sat down proceeded on an assumption equally fallacious—
namely, that we wish to establish out-door relief as the
permanent rule, and in-door relief as the exception in Ire-
land. Now, in respect, the hon. gentleman has gamin.
dentood both the bill itself, and the tenor of my observa-
tions. I never argued that it was fit or desirable that out-
door relief should be given as a general rule. I am quite of
opinion that it is not a desirable system of relief. I believe,
with the Poor-law Commissioners, whose report has been
quoted, that no labour-test out of doors can be made a suf-
ficient test of destitution ; and I agree with them that such
system of labour failed as • system, and that it is better to
give relief within the walls of some public institution. But
the Con which we are endeavouring to provide for is the
event of tte institutions being full, and there being a num-
ber of destitute persons who cannot receive relief within
their walls. What, then, is the course to be adopted?
You may erect temporary buildings, if you please ;
but I can easily conceive, without the occurrence of • ease
of such extreme calamity as the present, that periods of dis-
tress might arise, when the number of persona applying to
the guardians fur relief would be greeter than the workhouse
could accommodate. That was a case I put to the house on
• former occasion, and one to which I asked them to fix
their attention, with a view to determine the best mode in
which, under such circumstances, relief could be afforded.
It is, in this respect, that I think the law otEngland is suffi-
cient for its purposes ; and it is on that ground that I ask
the house to maks the law in Ireland conform to it. (Hear.)
Take a cue that occourred in this country not very long after
the English poor-law act wad—the distress in Nottingham.
As soon as the workhouses became full, and it was bound
that then were still many applicants for relief, the course
adopted was to give the applicants some task of labour—as a
test of their destitution—but with such task of labour to
afford them relief in food so long as their condition required
it, in order to prevent than fres starving. That is the
owns adopted In England. But shall we, in the case of
Ireland, deny such relief, without at the same time giving
some sufficient resource to the destitute able-bodied ; and are
the guardians to be compelled to reply to their demand for
assistance, "Our workhouse is full ; we cannot receive you
into it. We know you must die for want of food and shelter,
but the law is such that we are prevented from affording you
any 1" (Hear, hear.) I am much afraid that in the years
to which we have now to look forward, though we may not
experience anything like the suddenness or the extent of the
present calamity ; we may, nevertheless, have periods of
serious distress in Ireland to contend with. The hon. gen-
tleman who has just spoken has said, and said truly, that
there are a greater number of labourers as compared with
the number of cultivated acres by three times an Ireland
than in the best cultivated districts in England, and by four
times, if you take the average counties of England. But
them must be provided for. (Hear, hear.) They have
grown up, owing to the unfortunate confidence that has
been placed by all classes, the richest as well as the poorest,
in the permanence of the potatoes as the staple of food.
You cannot expect that the potato will ever again
afford such an abundance of food to the labourers
of that country as it Its, hitherto done. The crop, whatever
it may be that may take its place, will probably, ere long,
though perhaps not at first, supply the same quantity of food
which has heretofore teen obtained from the potato ; but,
in order that the people should be permanently assisted, and
the land better cultivated, you can have no resource so good,
or so well proved by experience, as the charging upon the
property of Ireland its destitution. (Hear.) Both with
respect to the order and peace of the country, and the pu-
nishment of vagrancy and mendicancy, and the prevention
' of those habits of pilfering and immorality which attach to
those professions, I know of no measure so good or so effee
ties. (Hear.) I believe, also, that you can adopt no
other measure so effectual as • means of inducing
the landlord and the farmer to improve the cul-
tivation of their land ; because, it must be obvious
that it will be the interest of all who own or occupy
land, instead of employing the poor on toeless works, or
leaving them to be relieved by the guardians, that they
should be employed on wages in the field. (Cheers.) If
Ireland should flourish as I anticipate, we must expect that
cultivation will be carried on to a greater extent than at pre-
sent. Unless • greater quantity of land is cultivated than is
now cultivated, and unless that cultivation is carried en in a
more a ladifle and profliatio manner, you cannot expect the
people to be in • comfortable or happy condition. But this
as a vast transition—a transition of great difficulty, and one
that must be accompanied by great hasem. I would, how-
ever, recommend landlords to adopt the principles laid down
by Sir R. Kane and others who have well considered this
matter. The hon. gent. says the Irish pemant is not skilful,and
sot likely to adopt the best modes of cultivation, at least for
a long time to come. In that respect, as in others the
facilities of procuring, with little labour, the means of lead-
iag.an indolent and slothful existence—the facilities of pro-
curing • little food—the total negligence of all beyond a
bare sufficiency of food, and the most wretched description
of clothing and shelter, are, I believe, the cause of that want
of energy and skill that prevails amongst the Irish pea-
santry. I look at this misfortune, great es it undoubtedly
is, as no reason why the Irish farmer and labourer
should not so improve in their habits as to bring
about • better system of cultivation in future
years. I believe there are no labourers who are taxable of
being employed to greater advantage than those of Ireland.
(Hear.) I have conversed, previous ha the dilatation on
Irish railways brought on by the noble lord (G. Bentinck),
with those persons who are most conversant with the labour-
ing cleans of Ireland, and they tell me that, though for the
first three or four weeks the Irish labourer employed on
railways is not skilful with his tool, and has much to learn,
the work of instruction goes on so rapidly with him that at
the end of that time he is able to work upon an equality
with the other labourers. And when the Irish labourer
goes to France to work on the French railways, where
it is well known the English labourer receives higher
wages than the French labourer, the Irishman em-
ployed on such works is looked upon as equal to the
English labourer, and receives the same wages. If that be
the see—if such is the industry and such the power of the
Irish labourers—l can see no reason why that power and
that industry should not be turned to the cultivation of the
land. (Cheers.) What is there to prevent his becoming as
good a ploughman, and as skilful an the knowledge of the
rotation of crops, le the agricultural labourer of this country?
(Cheep.) Believing this, I consider this measure will be the
cause of new exertions on the part of both the Irish farmer
and the Irish labourer. There is a very great difference in
regard to the condition of the various parts of Ireland.
There are sonic few districts the condition of which I can con-
template without feelings of alarm, but in other parts
I observe every disposition to make the great exertions
which the emergency of the case demands. Those who are
beet sequainted with the different parts of Ireland, my that
while in some districts the people are struck down with the
misfortune that has come upon them, and appear to despair
of being able ever to raise themselves from the depth of
misery to which they are reduced, there are others where
the people are making the greatest exertions, when more
land has been sown this year than at any previous time, and
where all parties appear to have made up their minds
to become used to the new state of existence, and the
altered modes of cultivation which they must adopt. (Hear.)
If we look to the Weary of the English poor-law, we fin
that in the fine instance those destitute persons who would
not work were considered as persons who were to be com-
pelled to work as • sort of punishment, and afterwards
badges and marks of disgrace were imposed upon them ;
subsequently, however, when the abuses of the old poor-law
were exposed, the workhouse was made the test, and all who
applied for relief were compelled while there was room in
the workhouse to go in and there receive that food and
shelter they required, but not in such a manner as to
make their life more easy and agreeable than that of
the able-bodied labourer who was not receiving :parish re-
lief. This system, I believe, has contributed much to the
prosperity of England so a nation. (Hear.) I firmly be-
lieve that the existence of the poor-law, by giving a claim to
the destitute able-bodied poor to relief, and thereby afford-
ing the means of repressing vagrancy and mendicancy, and
reducing society into order, was one reams why the pur-
suits of trade, industry, and commerce, had been so mecca •
ful in England. (Hear.) I am convinced that at this time
it is absolutely necessary to extend the same provisions to
Ireland. I believe, that to this bill we may look as one of
the means for the future improvement of that country, and
nothing I have heard from the right hon. gentleman, or the
bon. gentleman the member for Came, has in any way al-
tered my first impression in this respect. (Cries of " divide.")
Mr. LEFROY briefly addressed the house, amidst such
impatience for a division, as to render his remarks inaudible.
He contended that, in the present circumstances of Ireland,
out-door relief was wholly inapplicable, and quoted Dr.
Doyle in support of that opinion. He believed that the
effect of such a measure would be to double the number of
paupers, and to render it impoesible to preserve tranquillity in
the country without the presence of a large military force.
The noise and interruption became so loud and oontinnom
that the hon. members concluding sentences were completely
km.
Mr. ROSS, amid the loudest interruptions, was understood
to say that although about to vote for the clause yet he could
not give the government measure his unqualified support.
He believed that the experiment about to be tried was a
most perilous one, but still the position of the country was
critical, and her Majesty's ministers were bound to try every
remedy. His fear was that without the potato, not five saes
of land but ten, would be required to support a family. In
mash • state of things any Scream in the burthens of the
people meat be looked upon with the greatest alarm. In

many pane of Ireland he feared that the law about Gibe trio,'
would be • hopeless 'liniment. (Divi.de, divide.)
Sir H. W. BARRON moved tne en,ournrnent of the
debate amidst great confusion and cries of " Divide." The
hoe. gentleman did not, however, press bt: motion, and
proceeded to &Mire,' the house amidst mach imp:tien,e. The
question was, whether Ireland was to be m integral portion of
this empire, and, besides, whether she was to be for ever a
drag on this country, which she would be if she was reduted
to a state of pauperism. This was a fearful and dangerous ex-
periment, but stilltrosting to the responsibility of government
he would not do so ungracious a thing as to sots against it.
By • return he held in his hand, it appeared silty-two
millions were rated to the poor, out of which five millions
were paid for the support of a million and • half of persona.
In Ireland there were 2,300,000 paupers, and the coat of
supporting them would he .5,600,0001., from • rental of
13,000,0001. If the principle of the bill was carried out it
would crush not only the landlords but all the rate-payers of
Ireland. (Divide divide.)
After a few words from Mr. FITLOERALD and Mr. SHAW,
The committee divided.
The numbers were—For the clause
Against it 36-206
The house then resumed. The chairman reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday neat.
PRISONS BILL AND CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS
BILL.

Sir 0. GREY, in moritTg7l; second reading of these
bills, stated they would stand for committal on Monday, but
on that day he would state when he should proceed with
them, in order that hon. members might discuss them en the
motion for going into committee.
The house adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.