The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

The Lots 1

HOUSE OF LORDS.—Tau939.a, APRIL 29.
looNcaLLos took kis seat ot 5 o'clock.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
—Poor SAW (Ire end); Landed homey
Fatdee (IThead); Prisons (Ire.
AWL PAUPERS IN LIVERPOOL.-THE BANK

SECONDRM
IraWmti:Nds.

RESTRICTION AOT.
Lord BROUGHAM, in promoting the petition from
. Liverpool stated that 180,000 poepert had arrived in Liver-
pool within the last six months, of whom 103,000 had roe
maned is Liverpool. Ho wished to ask the noble lord
opposite (the Marquis of Lowdown) whether it was the in-
. beetles of government to do anything to relieve the premiere
felt in the money market, especially by those in the menu
lecturing distracts, who were thereby prevented from
executing their orders.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to say,
that while lamenting the existing pressure, the government
wtre not prepared to propose any alteration of the Bank
Restriction Act.
Afier a few words from Lord ASH BURTON, Lord MONT-
HS. a LE. and the Earl of Wicxeow, the Marquis of Weer-
mourn said the legislature might pass all the pour laws us
the world, but so long as there was an oppressed class in
Ireland, the evils of that country would never cease, nor
would a single advance be made towards improving the
condition of the country.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it now became his
duty, on the part of her Majesty's government, to propose to
their lordships to give a second reading to a bill far extend-
leg relief to the poor of Ireland, and in requesting their lord-
ships to proceed with this bill through it. several stages, he
was deeply sensible that he was inviting them to follow him
in a path which was beset with difficulties and danger*.
Corupelled by circumstances which had existed far some time,
they were about to embark on a navigation in which, though
it was clear to what port they ought to steer, their arrival at
that port must be effected through men and shoals which
*would require every care and caution to avoid. After pass-
ing this law, it would requite the beet attention the govern-
ment could bestow upon its administration to make it effec-
tual and secure. He need not tell their l•rdships that this
bill had been headed upon the existence of a calamity with
which the house and the country had by this time become
but too Wallin. He did not emotive this bill to be • per-
manent remedy for the *ells to which that calamity had
given rim; on the contrary, he believed that a permanent
remedy must be looked fur from other wurces; and the oaly
ground, on which he asked the house to assent to this bill
was as an important, if not an indispensable palliative for
Ireland--a palliative which they would be compelled by
circumstances to adopt. He further asked their lordships to
give their assent to the messurs, because be had not heard
suggested by what other means the existence of this disorder
could be remedied. Before he proceeded to state what this
measure was, he would first state what it was not. After
what he had beard in that house and elsewhen—after the
statements he had read in the newspapers, and knowing
what were the apprehensions in Inland itself upon the
subject, he thought it material that he should at once state
that this bill was not a bill confined to the general, indis-
criminate, and permanent right to outdoor relief in
Ireland; and, therefore, that it did not involve the
confiscation of property in that country. If it involved that
principle, he should be the last man to propose its adoption.
because he know well, that if false humanity, misguided
philanthropy, or blind confidence in the future suggeste
any attempt to confer the indiseiiminate right to out-door
relief, the attempt would be attended with consequences fatal
le the property of the country, end fatal to the character of
italiteissi(llear, hear.) He, therefore, repeated that no
s was involved in the present bill He would
add, that if each a right was attempted by parliament to be
conferred, Its immediate afflict would be to inereue the
amount of consumers, which was already too great, and to
ditainish the number of producers, which was already too
small. (Hear.) Its further effect would be gradually to with-
draw capital from the country, instead of adding capital to it ;
to diminish indostry, and to disorder the relations which ex-
isted
between landlord and tenant—between producers and
consumers—until at length the result was arrived at that
the produce of the reentry was altogether insufficient to sup-
port the people, and nothing but the right to consume would
remain. -(Heer, hear.) This would be the inevitable result
of a permanent and Indiscriminate right to outdoor relief.
Entertaining, as he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) did, so great
ajealouryand mistrust with respect to the right to out-door
relief, he might be asked on what ground he proposed, even
in a quefified degree, tho adoption of the principle, as on-
donbtedly wee propotedunderoertain guards to be adopted
by the bill ? That question he was bound to answer—he was
bound also to vindicate the course which her Majesty's
.government were about to pursue. It wastrue that a great
elegem of risk was to be encountered by the application cf
this nem ; bat then, where was any other remedy to be
hand suitable to the condition of Ireland, as affected by its
peerless habits and state of society ? Most of their lor&hips,
•eithor from personal knowledge or hoot description, were
well acquainted with the state of Ireland ; and he thought
se noble lord who heard him would hesitate to come to the
conclusion that there was no remedy for the condition or
safety of Ireland except by effecting a great, extensive, and
permanent change in the pursuits and habits of society in
titan country. (Hear, hear.) To regulate, to promote this
ch tnge—to make that safe and innocuous whisk at present
was dangerous and injurious, ought to be the great object of
their liehips. (Hear.) And what was the extent of the
ctionge that must take place? No man would say, that
upon the potato crop the prospects of Ireland must rest for
the future. (Hear, hoer.) There was no safety fee Ireland
but bye change in the habits and pursuits other population.
That change must be large and most extensive whole die-
trin must arum a new character—whole inane( country,
which, up to the prevent moment, had only been touched by
the spade, mart submit to bear the pressure of the plough—
whole bodies of the people who had heretofore assumed
the character of farmers, and earned a miserable existence,
dependent upon the accidents of nature, and without
resources or the means of subsistence, if nature failed them,
must undergo the dreary discipline of learning that such a
condition and state of things was practically gone. (Hear,
hear.) Whole masses of the people mut be taught only to
rely upon their independent labour, and the proprietors of
/eland must abandon those habits which led them to
indulge and protect those of their tenantry they must be
taught that this species of cultivation must cease and give
way to an improved, more enlightened, and more active
course of management of their property. (Hear, hear.) It
wes only by creating a sufficient number of stimuli to the
landed proprietor', and to the tOSSRSI of the people, that the
gent change could he effected, by which the production of
ore staple should be substituted for another; and who was
bold enough to state bow much longer time would elapse
before this change in the elements of society should be set to
rights, and a new creature substituted in the place of those
now existing? (Hear, hear.) He would venture to say it
would be as wild and absurd to state exactly in what number
of years this change would be effected, as it would be beyond
presumption for any geologist, however eminent, to state
what was now peering below the surface of the earth. He,
therefore, appealed to their lordships whether, during the
time this transition was going on, Anil until the elements of
society bad settled down into a state of tranquillity, it was
not necessary to provide for the perpetually occurring dis-
tresses of the people, and especially for the existence of those
In estate of transition, until they were enabled to provide for
themselne, after improvements had been effected in the
agriculture of the country. (Hear.) Where were they at
present to find that assistance sad support? Where was the
machinery now existing which, when camel but certain dis-
tress arose, would be able Weave the persons so exposed from
all the horrors of famine ? Some provision therefore must
be made by the legislature. Their lordships had seen a
great calamity pervade Ireland within the present year,—
• ^y had seen that calamity met by a degree of liberality—
he an extent of means which did honour to human nature.
((tear, hear, hear.) But was the safety and condi-
tion of Ireland to be left fur the next three, four, or live years
to the supplies furnished by the generosity of this and other
nations ? Certainly not and hence, after a careful survey
of all the difficulties of the subject, the present bill was sug-
gested as a palliative—a measure which provided a qualified
ay tem of outdoor relief—temporary in its nature, and
guarded in its operation, so as to prevent those abuses which
he admitted were the necessary concomitants of the system.
(Hear, hear.) This was the general principle of the bill,
which, of course, would be administered by the poor-law
commissioners, under the responsibility of the government, in
Ireland. He now came, severally, to state what were the
provisions of the bill. The fir,t clause proposed, thatbeyond
the existing system of in-door relief within the workhouse,
relief should be granted out of the workhouse to each
dvatituts poor persona as were pennimently disabled
from labour by reason of old age, infirmity, or bodily
or mental delbot ; and it further left it to the discre-
tion of the boards of guardian, to give others
relief in or out of the workhouse. (Hear, hear.)
The next clause gave a power to the poor-law comnaistioners
from time to time to empower the guardians oa a rerresen-
lotion of any extraordinary destitution in a district, to give
out-door relief to ninon' applying for it, but for two months
only; although the relief might be renewed at the end of
that time, by a fresh order, and it was to be shortened if
possible. It was also directed that this assistance should be
given in food only. It bad been found that by the measures
recently enacted the payment of money was an unavoidable
source of abuse. The object of this bill wag to guard against
abuw. He did not say that giving assistance in
food might not give rise to abuse, for the persons receiving
it might sell it and convert it into money, Mot he relied on
the precautions to he taken by the guardians, and some
security would be found in the power given to them
to refuse to continue the allowance to any person detected in
salting it. This relief would be administered only when
the workhouse was full, and the guardians would have
power to require persons to go into the workhouse. This
would elm be a great safeguard. This administration of
out-door relief waste be suppoeted by a rate paid in wawa
proportion by all except die very lowest deseriptise of
farmer., if (semen they could be called. All insuplers
beyond 41. would be liable to this rate, and, as la the bare
Poor Law Bill, the burden would be shared hewer die
landlord and the tenant. He did hope that whatever ahem-
lions their lordships might be indaced to maks In the
they would not throw the whole burden of the rate OR the
tenants. Neither did he wish that it should be Omni ono-
' gather on the landlords. Besides the contibientions awitiz
from the great pressure and overwhelming
which induced him to look to this bill aloes eisTuOlietee
there was another more p iliteal in its nature
which bad induced him to concur in this parasols,
measure. It was well known that for years there had been
ei comrlsint of the number of absentees in Ireland. It was
a favourite complaint, and in many instances a favourite gab-
tea of mimes resentation He had experienced the effect of
that misrepresentation, when statements had been made, the
reveres of truth as to what be had contributed to the relief
of the poor ; and he had also seen misstatements as to the

CZILYof whiel he was pawned. It wee a feeling very I
arise he periods of distress and difficulty, 2bolll thee
at any other time ; and it was believed that absentees 101 l
the preeenre to be borne by the residents, while they were
ezempt themselves. It was a powerfnlpolitial argument that
this bill put an end to that complaint. A101111(0011111 might,
and did rs.ist in England as well as Ireland, and in parts of
the north ; and in Wales it existed in no email degree; but
they did not hear the same complaints, because the proprietor
was made to contribute to the necessities of the poor.
Lord STANLEY—Through the tenant: he pays the rate.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—The tenant paid it,
but the impression was that it was the landlord, and he was
now dealing with impressions. ill. noble friend supposed
that he was addressing himself to the point haw the rate
was to be distributed between the landlord and tenant, but
he was applying himself to the question of outdoor relied,
and his argument was, that by this bill the complaint of the
non-contribution of absentees wax removed. Another ma-
terial point in the bill was, that relieving officers were to to
appointed to meet other cases of destitution. A good deal
would depend on the careful superintoodeme of the guar-
dians ; and he hoped it would be exercised for the sake of
their own interests and 'nun", and he trusted that by per-
mitting this dense to pass, they would prevent any one from
being subject to the casualty of falling dead from starvation
because no one was appointed to afford them relief.
Another material provision was a restriction which had
been suggested he a noble friend of his, and of which be
(the Msrqius of Lensdowne) had previously felt the great
importance, and which confined relief to persons not pm
served of land exceeding a quarter of an acre. It was con-
sistent with justice and the interests of the public, that per-
sons applying for relief should give up their land.
next point was that contained in the Ilth clause, which
provided that all expenses beyon'i Is. 6d. in the pawed
should be charged on the union at large. No doubt there
were difficulties connected with this question, and he wee
prepared to discuss them candidly and fairly; but be
might as well state that while it was desirable to give every
stimulus to proprietors to improve their property, if the
rating were adopted indiscriminately, in some places and in
large towns the effect would be to annihilate their resources;
and ustless they gave to particular districts the power of ex-
tending taxation (be would not carry it beyond the
union), there would be, a risk of great social disorder.
Another question was, that of giving asaistance 100
emigration. (Hear.) He could not enter into details
which only carried further Os provisions of the old poor
law, which furnished assistance to emigrants out of the rates.,
This bill carried it further in this respect, that if the propels.'
tors of the electoral districts furnished two-thirds of the ex-
penses for an emigrant, the guardians might raise the re.
mainder in the nuion. The only remaining provision
Im-
portance was the one relating to ex oficio guardians, the
number of which was to be increased, with the limitation that
they did not exceed one-half of the elected gua dians. The
other provisions related to the schools in unions, and espe-
cially in the Dublin union. The remaining clauses were in-
tended to give greater security to the operation of the bill,
and the last but ono secured the complete auditing of the
accounts of the guardians, so that every item of relief must
be brought under the conaideration of the auditor, and
reported to the poor law commiesionen, and be subject to
their approval or discouutenanee. He kad made
himself ill understood, if he had led their lordships
to believe that it was desirable, or that they were required
to pass this bill unaccompanied by other measures.
He was bound to state that is his opinion other concomitant
measures were ineiepensable, and one which he considered a
necessary consequence of this bill, the Vagrant Act, hail
limn introduced in the other house. Beyond that he felt
that this bill should be accompanied by legislative facilliee
which would lead to exertions on the part of proprietors in
the cultivation and improvement of their property. With
respect to that a bill had been introduced by has noble and
learned friend on the Woolsack, and which was now un their
lordship.' table, and stood fora second reading, which gave
facilities to the sale of estates ; it being a great public object
that proprietors, if they were compelled to improve their
estates, should also have facilities for selling them. Another
measure was, that for the encouragement of the cultivation
of waste lands, which was introduced in the other hones;
and there was also another bill for making advances to land-
lords to enable them to introduce improved cultivation on'
their estates. Even before the bill passed into law, the
mere announcement that its provisions would be applieable

to ordinary as well as entailed estates, caused many persons
to be desirous to avail themselves Of it, and surveys bad
been made for contemplated improvements on a large scale.
There were other measures which gave facilities far the
erection of piers and curing etagere, for fisheries- and it
was a fact that some curing stations, which had ally been
established lest entrain, had repaid the sures ezpanded en
them. This was a stimulus to industry ea which the. go-
vernment, the Board of Works, and the etsearaimariat might
themselves; and it promised to become a new
rEhlinolitst; trade. All these measures were to be adopted.
That they would prove sufficient he could not ay; but
d this he must state that, in one important under-
taking,
, the government had applied a greet stimulus to in-
dustry. The large sum of 510,0001. had been advanced for a
trunk railway, the Great South-Western, which would se-
ewe to that part of the country a greater amount of industry
than had hitherto prevailed, and lead to the completion ef
the work in less than a year. Advances had also been made
to the Waterford and Kilkenny, and the Dublin mid Drog-
heda Companies, and this was only when 50 per cent. of the
capital had been subscribed, so that they had the best secu-
rity for their being completed. It was to those measures,
and to the stimulus so applied to industry, and to the im-
provemente suggested to proprietors, and which could only
have their full result, through their own zeal and exertions,
that they must ultimately look. This law was n as
a palliative; but it was only to that arplication and to
own exertions, that they could look for a happy future fez
Ireland. In that only could they find the prospect
"Of that happier hour'
Which darkest clouds that dimly 'oi r,
And blacken round our weary way,
Oilda with a Ceara of distant day."
That day might be distant, but he believed that by their
exertions and by legislation they might materially assist the
efforts which were made to find a remedy. He asked their
lordship' to adopt this measure the immediate effect of which
would be to prevent a certain amount of calamity. While
addreraing their lordship+ he had-been painfully reminded in
the place in which he stood, and in which their lordships were
resembled, of the contrast which existed between that place
presenting as it did at that moment the type and manilas.
Cation of all the luxury, all the wealth, and all the power ft
this country, between that scene of imperial grandeur end
the depth and abyss of misery which they were called ore.
end which it was their duty to contemplate. All he asked
was that they init,ht be enabled to look from out the
splawdour that surrounded them with clear and undazzled
eyes oa the prospect of the wants of that portion of the king.
des for which they were called on to legislate, which noose
could doubt existed, and which foisting it was their mania
duty to use every effort to endeavour to providefor. (" Heir,"
and cheers.) The noble marquis then moved the assured
reading of the bill.

The Earl of CLANCARTY asked whether a tem-
porary calamity ought to be made the ground work of a
measure like this. No one wished for an effec-
tive poor-law for Ireland more than he did.
The first section of the bill gave to the guardians of every
union the option of relieving to the workhouse or out of the
wolkhouse, except to the able-bodied; the centering**
of this would be, that the workhouse would he regarded
rather as a prison, or a place of punishmeat, than as a means
of relieving destitution. Another objection was, that in
many districts, notwithetanding out-door relief might be
more economical than relief within the walls of the work-
house, in all cases out-door relief might be refused, and thus
the measure made more unpopular both with the rate-payers
and thepoor. Again, by spring to the guardians the power
of relieving helpless and infirm at their homes, they would
materially interfere with the flow of private charity, and
thus sever one of the most important link, which now bound
the higher and middle with the lower classes. This
evil too, would be aggravated by the clause which
excluded from out-door relief any person who poi.
awned more than a quarter of an acre of land,
for persons in that position would be deprived of the aid
they now obtained when suffering under sickness and help.
lesson", without being provided with any substitute. This
clause would also act as an inducement to the poor to cut up
their bolding, so as to keep themselves within the limit, and
thus still further to increase the evils of subdivision. The
second clause, which allowed the commissioners under cer-
tain circumstances to authorise oat-doer relief to be given to
the able-bodied as well as to the permanently infirm, he
looked upon as a just provision, though in this respect he
was aware he differed from many of his noble friends who
took the same general view of the measure übe did, lie
thought it right, when the workhouse was full, or when
from the prevalence of fever within ice walls it became unfit
for the reception of paupers, that relief out of doors should
be given. (Hear.) To the 11th Notion' which directed
that when the expenses under this act exceeded
in any electoral division of ,union a certain sum on the net
annual value, a portion of such expenses only should be
charged on the division, and the remainder on the union at
lam„ he was opposed. Though he should, as the possessor
of land to a considerable extent is a town division, gain by
such a provision, he thought the injustice of it so great,
especially as connected with the power to give out-door
relief to the poor in their cabins, thus leaving it open to the
middle men to increase the weight of pauperism in the
suburbs, that he, for one, could not consent to it. To the
15th section, which made tithe composition and rent-charge
in lieu thereof a rateable hereditament is rating for the
relief to the poor, he also objected. With regard to the in-
crease in the number of ex officio guardians, he had expected
from the noble marquis, who moved the rand reading,
some explanation of the grounds alike had influenced the
government in making this change hem the existing law ;
butall the noble mergeds had told them was that the whole
number of ex officio guardians would not exceed the number
et elected guardians. This would be • most unpopular
dean, and he lamented its adoption by the government.
la anthem molten ministers had proceeded in • direct con-
trary MIMI tea that which the informations contained
in the emend reports made by them who were acquainted
with Ireland should have inclosed them to take, and con-
trary With* TONIII6IOI which had beau presented to Lord J.
Rued' by the esseetation bums es the Irish party. He
had set iefnsi is the diversifies ot that party, not because
he eseidssed that such dimming end union of scion by
netwebsee er different polities& Firths who were particularly
measles' with Irked, were net emineny useful in pro-
duct', the basis et mewl leghiatiee fortl the country, but
booms. ha wee we Is Imam at the time. And here he
wort add that ltdes= the mower given by the prime
relafeese to the who ealmaitted three resolutions
to ham anything bet meetasive, was was it quite fair to call
an thee to
,a 6 me mare they world propose in lieu of
list is whisk objected. It appeared to him that such an
answer fewest the government had not themselves
given due atisetha to the subject on which they proposed to
legislate, Whim the existing poor law was ht

ley b. reasembered that teacart other things it vrla
eansgisieed spinet.- it thst ...it wee the •wrk -of
a viadtmaa who taint writhing of Ireland, erampt
tha# he had glade • short tour is that 'outstay. Butt out of
what inquiry bad the pratent bill sprat* ? (llear,jtear.)
Ile should Uhe to be informed Who MN its author. (Boar.)
Whoever he was, be Ina at leastdietiersiatisd for einem-
dirnry independence of character, foi hebad evinced a total
disregard of every recommendation contained in the cations
reports on the table of the home and the experience of
every one who was practically acquainted with *textual
state of Ireland. (lieu, hear.) tine otlserSisain objection
to the bill was, that, under it, the industrious labourer and
the anima were placed on • level with the iadolent and the
vagrant. To the Drainage Act, the act for reeldimna waste
lands, and the facilities for intending railways in' eland,
he looked sea means of employing lanour to a great extent ;
and if in combination with these Measures same means for
placing the medical charities on a sound footing, SO at to give
to the labourer an assurance of relief in gainer from that
source, were adopted, mach good would result. If the govern-
ment bad attended to the wishes of the people of Ireland,
they would long since have passed an effective measure of
poor relief for the sick and infirm, in connexion with the Irish
medical charities. In 1842, and on subsequent occasions,
this important subject bed been urged on the government,
but without effect. Eatertaining the objections he did to
the present bill, and for the reasons he had stated, it would
be his duty to move that it be read a second time that day
six months.

......
The LORD CHANCELLOR having put the amendment,
The Earl of St. GERMANS rote to support the second
reading of the bill. The present law gave considerable dis-
cretionary power to the boards of guardians, and the only
new principle introduced in the bill before the house was
that which enabled them to afford out-door relief to able.
bodied pounces. Great apprehensions were felt in tome
quarters as to the effects of the proposed change; but he
would ask the house whether the present social coudition of
the Irish labourer was such as to make any change an object
of dread. (Hear, hear.) The social evils of Ireland were
generally acknowledged ; and if be thought the bill ealcu
lated to aggravate them, he should be the last men to give it
his support. He should always resist an indiscriminate
system of out-door relief, but it was hardly fair to
argue front the abuses of a system against its wee;
and he was sot prepared to think 'Chat the
boards of guardians in Ireland would be too witting
to set aside the workhouse test, and to sanction an incline-
minate system of out-door relief. He thought that their lord-
ships, in coming to a decision on this bill, should know
what was actually the amount contributed by the
property of Ireland to the relief of the poor, the
more especially as his noble friend had admitted that it
should be made liable tot the relief of destitution. By tak-
ing the whole amount raised by poor rate is 1846, and adding
,to it all the county rates and voluntary contributions for in.
fftmaries and dispensaries, he found that the property of
Ireland contributed to the relief of the poor in-the whole
about tespence-halfpenny in the pound. Surely there was a
wide margin between this and absolute cosfiscation, (Hear,
hear.) Besides, it should be recollected, tkat there was at
the present moment in Ireland an immense masa of mendi-
cancy, which pressed heavily on the farmer, and even the
farm labourer. This would soon be got rid of, as he
was happy to learn from the noble marquis. oppo-
site, that • bill was in preparation for the suppression
of mendicancy and vagrancy in Ireland. With respect to
the number of az officio guardian in each union. it should
be resollected that the LlOlOlllll in Ireland were much hug, r
than those of England, and for that reason contained a
greater number of justices, so much so, that he knew some
cues where the ex officio guardians would exceed the elected
guardians in number. For this reason he would nines;
that in any case where the ex officio guardians exceeded the
elected guardians in number, the poor-law commissioners
should take order for increasing the number of the latter.
(Hear, hear.) He also thought the ninth clause, denying
relief to persons holding above a quarter of an Isere at land, too
striogenr. While upon this subject he could net refrain
from expressing his hope that their lordships world not
agree to an amendment which had nearly suceeded in
another place. lie believed that the success of that amend-
ment would be entirely fatal to the objects of the bill. (Hear,
hear.) It might be very well to say that all burdens must
fall ultimately on the laud, but the ease of the Irish and
English farmer were widely different. In England,
when • person went to take a firm, the first
, question he asked was the amount of the rates and
taxes, and if he found them excessive he declined ;taking
the farm. But in Ireland land was the first necessary of
life, the man must have it or starve, and therefore he would
submit to any rent the landlord might choose to demand.
He feared that the success of the clause would be the
signal for a renewal of the tithe war, and that there
would be a total failure in the collection of the rate.
He trusted their lordships would agree to this measure, as
ancillary to ether measures introduced and about to be in-
treduced by the government. It would be better to reject
the hill at once than to emasculate it by the adoption of the
amendment. (Hear.)
Lord IsIONTEAGLE said that this measure was brought
forward in an emergency ; and was the house now to pass a
permanent measure to meet the requirements of an emer-
gency ? (Hear, hear.) The time of outrage and insurrec-
tion was not the occasion on which to legislate in reference
to the liberty of the subject ; neither should the legislature
attempt to enact permanent measures, applinible to the
social condition of the people, founded upon the necessities
of the moment. And yet, rearly all the arguments by wbich
the noble marquis (Lansdowne) bad supported chi( bill,
were drawn from the exceptional state of affairs now deistiag
in Ireland, and were consequently not to be relied on in the
CABO of • permanent measure. On a former -000apion, he
(Lord !dente/Tie) had shown abundant authority from the
Union down to the present time. for refusing to establish •
system of oar'-door relief to the able-bodied poor ; while on
the other side not the shadow of an authority had been
adducer. The bill already passed for the temporary relief
of the poor, contained the same dangerous principles as were
embodied in and perpetuated by the measure now before the
house ; but the former bill had been adopted with little oppo-
sition, as &necessary relief in a case of emergency. 'The effect
of that MOWS would soon become known ; and had the
government waited until then, before proposing the perma-
nent measure, they might have been able to disarm much of
the apprehension with which the present measure was
viewed. Much had been said about the necessity for the
workhouse as a test of destitution ; but noble lords appeared
to have overlooked the difference between the extent of
unions it England and Ireland. In the latter country there
were only 150 workhs uses, and some of the unions comprised
from 250,000 to 600,000 statute acres; while in England
there were very few unions anything like so large. A work-
house, to be a test for the poor in the union, ought to be
adjacent; if at 40 or 50 miles' distance, it was no practical
test whatever. He was acquainted with four unions in
Sligo and the adjoining counties, containing from 600 to
800 square miles; and the great six! of these unions would
effectually prevent the application of the test as proposed.
In Ireland there were only 51 unions, with a population lees
then 60,000, and only 10 with • population below 30,000 ;
in England there were 570 unions having • population of
less than 50,000; so that any argument drawn from the
operation of the poor-law in this country was wholly illusory.
How was it pose 4e to carry the law into effect through the
agency of a single relieving officer ? Let any men who bad aver
visited Ireland for the shortest possible period—evea for a
period no longer than appeared necessary to qualify any one
to act as secretary for Ireland—(laughter)—let any one
who had the sligh•est knowledge of the country—be asked
how it was possible that a single relieving office r should dis-
charge his duties in these extensive unions. The relieving
officer was to exercise a discretion, too ; but what kind of
discretion could be expected from a man placed in such a
situation ? This prevision alone would render the bill
utterly impractical/le. Instead of allowing the boards of
guardians to appoint the relieving officers, and thus opening
a door to favouritism, it would be much better thit they
should be appointed as government efficere. It was said that
out-door relief would only rarely be resorted to. This, he
denied : he was convinced it would prevail most extensively.
In the workhouses, at present, there were 50,000 children,
who were receiving a good education ; these could not be
removed, neither could many of the adults. What, then,
was to became of the large mass of persons who, in a very
short time, must be discharged from the public works ? A
flood of pauper labour would thus be cast upon the unions
which would more than choke tip the whole of the work-
houses, and out-door relief must then be extensively resorted
to. (Hear, hear) Whatever government might attempt
to do by any measure fur the suppression of vagrancy,
it was impossible to root out of the minds of the Irish
people the principle, most religiously held, of the right of the
destitute to relief by alms as a moral obligation. The vagrancy
bill might work well in the north of Ireland, but elsewhere
it would wholly fail. He was convinced that • larger sum
was collected annually in Dublin, and distributed in charity,
than in any other metropolis, in proportion to its wealth and
population. If it could he shown to him that this was a safe
and judicious mode of administering relief to Irelands-that
it would teed to better the sondition of the. people, and to
call forth habits of industry, he should consider the money
charge the least important part of the question. He, there-
fore, treated the argument of confiscation so a secondary
gentler. They talked of the confimatioa of Irish estates and
their passing into other hands, but the ties which at prevent
existed between the proprietors and their property could not
be easily severed, arid then not without serious hazard to
the whole framework of society in that country. His noble
friend said that he hoped the land which was at present
tilled by the spade, might hereafter be cultivated by the
plough, but although • better system of agricul-
taro might be desirable, and yield a greater pro-
duce, it was most erroneous to suppose it would
give employment to a greater quantity of the popu-
lation. But it was said a stimulus was to be applied to the
Irish landlords. How was this bill to give such a stimulus ?
Would it be by increasing the rates? Why, the rates in
many cases could not be collected, except from the parson of
the parish, who was, perhaps, the only orthodox individual
in it—(a laugh),—and the benevolent and considerate land-
lords, and, the industrious and orderly tenantry, would not
only have to maintain their own poor, but those of the pan-
penned and neglected parish adjoining. To pass on to
another subject, it was • great delusion to suppose that this
measure would cause a cssietion of Irish emigration into
England. Amongst some of the reasons urged in its favour,
this was one of the strongest put forth is laver of out-door
relief; but such a consequence could not be prWuced staler
the effect of the measure was to raise the rate of wages in
Ireland, and if the result was to lower the rate of wages, the
emigration to tide couunTwould be increased. (Hear.) Ile need
hardly say that from all experience in England the tendency
of out-door relief had been to lower the rate of wages.
(Hear, hear ) Ile did not dispute that responsibility
attached to the fetch landlords, and they were ready and
willing to bear it. Their objection to the measure was not
confined to the amount of the burden, but more especially to
the mode et appropriating the fund intended to be levied
on them. Medical cheriti.■ and the cost of educating the
people might form a just burden on the land. The govern-
ment had promised to instruct the Irish people in agricul-