The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 38;.1847.

ten. If such a course lied be aillijeetie4 ago the bane-
raw* of the lisndletels. Is 111.11 t Sea Is their totems,
wentbinithave beenftustintedleytWVneememia,loetknow-
ling eowle avail themselves of it. :les emeeniese, he mew
only say, that without • system oreenignelms is would be
utterly is vain to attempt to deal with the Meng calamity
which tbeheren ailsdeplere. (Hear, hear)
The Mas4uis of CLANRICARDE Ina glad I. hear his
noble friend (Lord Motiteagle) conclude with the idea teat
instruction should be given to the people in agriculture, be-
came he understood him in the commencement of his speech
to my, in reply to the noble marquis (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) that, however great the improvements in agriculture
might be, hafted of creating more employment it would
cause less ; but his own opinion was, that when the resources
of a people were increased, it must necessarily lead
to the encouragement of employment. (Hear, hear.)
The greet argument of the noble lord against out-door relief
was a comparison between the unions of England and the
unions of Ireland ; but when he complained of the size of
the Irish anions, it would have been but fair to have called
their lordships attention to the 20th clause of the bill they
were then discussing, which provided that they might be
diminished, as, from the operation of the act, might he found
necessary. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl (the Earl of
Clan-arty) had said that the principle of the bill was moat
unsound, and he had a right is oppose it on authority, and
he afterwards advocated a national rate.
The Earl of CLANCARTY made some observations is
explanation, which were totally inaudible in the gallery.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE had so 'Understood the
noble lord; it was exactly what he had said : when out. ,1
door relief became necessary, he advocated a national rate.
The noble earl was fond of appealing to authorities, he
would, therefore, refer him to the report of the Archbishop
of Dublin, and the other commissioners, which re-
commended that a rate should be made for the re-
lief of the aged, the infirm, orphans, other help-
less persons and casual paupers. (Hear, hear, hear.)
This bill would relieve all persons who came under that
category. His noble friend had spoken of this measure
as if out-door relief was to be given to all classes of persons
—but this was not so; it was only under certain circum-
stances that the poor-la v commissioners in Ireland could by
this bill allow the guardians to give out-door relief for a cer-
tain time, and, therefore, he could not understand on what
proem& ft could he said that if thin bill passed, that out-
door relief snivel become the rule. lie totally denied that
such an expectation was well founded. It wep admitted that
destitution and desperation existed, and, therefore, was it
net better to risk even such a ruinous measure as this bill
had been described to he than to peewit the continuance of
the present state of things in Ireland. It would have
been necessary to take strong measure' with respect
to Ireland, even if the calamity she had lately ex-
perienced had not befallen her. That vices and evils
existed in that country had been shown by the commission
issued by Sir R. Peel's government, of which commission the
noble earl near him (the Earl of Devon) was at the head.
That commission exhibited difficulties with which it was
necessary to deal • and the late government had been pre-
vented from proceeding in consequence of the faiiure of the
crops, and from other causes which would have been aggra-
vated if the measures recommended by the noble earl had
been proceeded with. The present was not a passing emer-
gency, and the home was bound to legislate tor the future,
looking to the effects which the late emergency had created.
Those effects rendered it the more ttectsaars that the landed
proprietors, great and small, that the farmers and labourers
should look the state of things firmly in the face, and be pre-
pared to deal with any pressure that might arise. He
thought there could not be a stronger argument in favor of a
poorlaw in Ireland than the statement made by his noble
friend as to the mass of pauperism and vagrancy which was,
somehow or other, at present supported ; and he asked
would it not be better to afford relief under proper legal re-
gulations calculated to induce habits of order, industry, and
discipline, instead of leaving them, as now, by working on
the religious feelings, to extort money out f the innate be-
nevolence of their fellow-countrymen. With or without a
Poor-low, it was absolutely necessary that some amendment
in this respect should be effected, though he could Rot agree
with the most rev. prelate (the Arcbbieliop of Dublin) in
the allegation be made in a speech some time back, that the
Irish labourer was desperately improvident. 'lbis was de-
nied by the reports of the best engineer*, employing large
masses of labour on public works. Those reports showed
that the Irish labourers were actuated by sound principles of
economy, and that they were willing to work well when
they were well paid. Noe, the leading fault of a poor-law
was, that it reduced mea to a minimum of wages and of sub-
sistence, thus bringing them moreor less to a state of slavery.
But what raid the most rev. prelate in the speech to which
be (the Marquis of Clanricanle) referred? lie stated that he
did not give high wages to the b at men.
The e-rchbishop of DUBLIN.—I never said so. I said I
did not give as high wages as they usually earned.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE resumed. The words he
would read e I did not give laze wages because I preferred
employing a larger number at moderate wages." This was
just the mischief which existed in Ireland—the people were
employed not because their labour was wanted, but in order
to give them relief. It was objected to the proposed out-door
relief that, once established in principle, it would become the
rule which the guardians would be unable or unwilling to
set ride after the necessity had ceased. Now he was may
to contend that if the farmers would not unite with the
Centre

y in doing their duty, they would be ruined partly
q the operation of this law, and partly by the condition
le which the country would be brought. The well
waking of this measure depended upon the people them-
selves; moll them must lend their aid, and be guided by
*Nis wits were bath able and willing to advise them.
With the existing etas of things, it would become the legis-
lature or the government to pause, and he had that confi-
dence in the people of all classes in Ireland, in the gentry,
the formes, and the lower orders themselves, to believe,
Wit, regulated as they were by the same feelings which
situated other men, they would avoid further evils, sad
therefore that this bill would effect a great benefit to the
whole community. (Hear, hear.)
The Arc ibishop of DUBLIN said he did not rise for the
of entering into the details el this measure, which
e already been eo ably argued on both aides. He rose be
eases an allusion had been made to expmsions be had used
in a former speech, which he was sure the noble marquis did
not wish to misrepresent. But a slight alteration made all
the difference. The expression alluded to described his
practice with regard to the employment of labourers,
and what he had said was, that he did not give high
wage I, but such wages as he wished to see an able-
bathed industrious man able to earn—such wages as
would not discourage a man from finding employment at
the best wages which the neighbouring farmers could offer.
This was to prevent a want of labour in the agricultural
cultivation of the soil. (Hear, hear.) In this way he had
employed many persons, and so had many noble lords now
present, when he had no need of it, but simply to beep the
people from seeking parochial relief. This was a proper and
legitimate way of conferring relief, so long as it wee done
voluntarily and secretly. (Hear, hear.) But the moment
this had been attempted to be carried out by tbe Labour-
rate Act, the whole charm, the entire tqwll, was broken ;
because, as soon never), man knew he was only employed
to keep him from the parish, not only the sepses-
ors hands but all the rest thought they were pelmets,
sad must be maintained without labour. It son
not his intention to detain the house by engaging now in a
All dimension on the hill now before it ; but, as he wee:as
his legs, he must express how strongly he felt the difficult
sndemberraeeing circumstances in which her Majesty's ad-
visers were placed. He must also express bin full coneurreses
in all that had been said in relation to the liberality shown
by England to Ireland, as also by the people of America. He
had himself been the channel through which a liege portion
of the contributions from America had been distributed ; and
only yesterday be had received intelligence of the arrival of
a cargo of corn meal, the purchase of the contributions of the
people of Philadelphia, through the instrumentality of the
episcopal Bishop Potter. Another cargo was on the.'y.
Those already received from the United States, from C
sad from another colony which bad been sent to him, 7ieM
distributed Is such a way am to into effect the intentsaad
peeper' of the government. It had been insinuated that atom
collections mule abroad for the Irish people had gone late
his pocket. (A laugh.) To that, and other imputatless
from time to time cast upon him, he should not trouble their
lordships with any defence, because he acted upon the maxim
which he had declared 14 years ago, that a character which
did not defend itself was not worth defending. (Hear, hear )
To revert to the measure now under consideration, he must
observe that, with the noble marquis who had m 'wed the
second reading, he thought it a perilous experiment, and he
must ask the governments consider carefully and cautiously
how many rocks and shoals there were through which they
most steer their way. In Ireland there was not the requisite
machinery—they had no rudder, compass, or paddle-wheels
by which to direct and work the viseel, although the chart
laid down might be good. (Hear, hear.) This was
the geound et his apprehensions with respect to this
measure. lie entertained a deep sense of the danger and
bossed of the experiment, which once made, it would be
difficult fee the legislature to retrace its steps, and therefore
he trusted the measure would nut be made permanent with-
out the greatest degree of caution and deliberation. (Hear.)
Lord STANLEY expressed a hope that after the discus-
sloe which had taken place, his uoble friend (the E irl of
Clancarty) would not be disposed to press his amendment.
He concurred with the most rev. prelate and his noble
friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne) in thinking that this was
a measure fraught with danger, and which would require
caution in dealing with it, and its consequences would be
more important than even the pecuniary results either to
one class or the other. This bill would probably not have
been brought forward but for the painful emergency in
which Ireland was placed. Whatever might be the incon-
venience of legislating on a subject like this ate time of ex-
"Bement, and with feelings of alarm, which would prevent
its disposeionate consideration, yet, there were some einem-
titaness which gave facilities for effecting a well considered
change in the law, which did not exi t at any other time.
AU claesea in Ireland were prepared for • great change;
then was a breakin up of old habits and feeling;
Stern necessity had forced upon them lessons which
would hove learned from no other monitress. But alt
these facilities existed, it did not exempt the government sod
the legislature frost divesting themselves of all palliosate
feelings, which were calculated to swerve and weep them
from their duty. On the contrary, they were ally ea to
consider maturely while legislating the irsanaiffis sew
quinces and ultimate result of they policy ; to bi as polio
to a measure that would temporarily or permeneatly mom
the property of Ireland to be crushed by a universal pow
perm.. On the other hand, well-considered legislation
might conduct them through perils and dangers to the
formation of a sounder state of the community in Ireland ;
and perhays " out of this nettle danger they might
pluck the flower safety." It was necessary that they
should take no step which they would be called on
to retrace—no course, of the prudence and safety of
Ishkh they were not convinced. His noble friend on the
crose-benehis ( Earl St. Germans) seemed to take an inade-
quate measure of the pecuniary consequences of this saes-

- - -
ware. He had spoken of 7d. or 74d. in the pound as the
amount at which the property of Ireland was charged. AU
he (Lord Stanley) could say was that kis property was rated
at 6s. in the pound for Use next' three months, and there
were more exaggerated oases when even 20s. in the pound
had bees levied for the relief of distress. Whether this
state of things was to continue; whether it was to be modi-
fied ; or whether it was to be done away with, depended not
oa their humanity and kindness, bat on the prudence of
their legislation. Hillis bill contained provisions for indis-
criminate outdoor relief it could have had no stronger
opponent than himself. But if he had read it
right, it practical'y placed a negative on any claim to out- '
door relief; at the same time it largely extended, and wisely,
if safely guarded, relief to destitution from the public funds.
As the law now stood there was no claim to relief as a right.
His noble friend (Earl St. Germans) said that the guardians
of poor-law unions under the present law were bound to pro-
vide relief; but there wan nothing compulsory; if they
thought fit they might provide in the workhouse for the
permanently impotent, and, if there was room, fur the able.
bodied, but none could demand it as a right. This bill made
it mandatory on the guardians to provide for the perma-
nently destitute, the infirm and impotent, either in or out of
the workhouse, according to their discretion. It went further,
and authorised the giving of assistance to the able-bodied out
of the workhouse. But even now, if an able-bodied
pauper applied for relief, the guardians were not bound to
take him mto the workhouse, it it was full, and then they
had no power to relieve hint. As the bill stood, although the
workhouse was full, there was nothing mandatory with re-
gard to relief. But the poor-law commissioners had the
power to call on the guardians, if the workhouse was full,
to give relief for two months inroad alone. If the clause stood
alone, it would not be open to serious danger. But it
must not be forgotten that you spoke of the workhouses
being full ; there was already in the guardians a power to
hire temporary buildings, and no limit was prescribed to
such accommodation. He agreed with his noble friend u to
the want of workhouses in Ireland, for when one spoke of a
workhouse in • district of 80 or 100 miles it was a proof that
the application of the workhouse test, with the present accom-
modation, could not apply to Ireland. The poor-law commis-
sinners had power to increase the number of workhouses, and
diminish the size of the union: but there was nothing com-
pulsory upon them to do so, and the present accommodation
would prove utterly inefficient under the bill, and its in-
crew was a tine qua non to the working of this mea-
sure. He should eutirely concur in this bill, if, by
uniting all the rate-payers and possessors of property
in one common interest, it would prevent lavish
expenditure, and cause a due administration of the
funds. If they had not the local machinery with the know-
ledge and the will to carry out the principle of this term,
that priaciple would break down under a trial of three
months. He need not ask their lordships not to be led away
by the vogue denunciations of the landlords by the press, and
persons in another place ; as tyrants and oppressors. He
would go much further and ask them not to throw
on the property and the kindle:de of Ireland
burdens which they could not bear; not to require
them to do what they would not do themselves, and he
asked them to compare the power of the English landlord
over his estate with that of an Irish one. It was the fashion
to say that the Irish landlord possessed unlimited power over
the tenant, but that of the English landlord was infinite in
comparison. In Ireland practically the tenant exercised
power over the landlord. ' He asked them, therefore,
not to call on the landlords and property of Ireland
to perform duties under eirenkudanees that they would not
perform themselves. He was speakieg with reference to a
provision of the bill, and to another which he had suggested,
he meant the one with regard to the extent of the
union, and the other the allowing the rates to fall prospec-
tively OR the occupiers as was the case in this country.
Their only safety in regard to this measure was in enlisting
the interest of all who were concerned in the payment of the
tax. The present unions cemposed 800 or 1,000 acrcs,but when
they were extended to 250,000 or 300,0U0, the foundation
of reckless expenditure and increased population would be
laid. He hoped the government would reconsider the pro-
position of extending that area of taxation. It had been
suggested that the town-lands should be toe area, but they
•were as much too small as the others were too large.
He now came to the question, by whom the burden of
the rate prospectively should be borne. Under the present
law, the charge was made, in the first instance, on the oceu •
pier, who had, however, to deduct from the landlord what
was ireeeded for a one-half per cent.; but at present, pea-
neatly, the rate was borne by the landlord., because the
tenant had the power to deduct half the poundage of the
rate from his rent. He asked those who were acquainted
with the operation of the English poor-law, if they could
safely commit the management of the rates to guar-
dians who levied the rates, and, as tenants,
could deduct two-thirds from the landlord's? Farms
in this country were 200 and 300 acres, hut in Ireland they
were: and 10 acres, and 30 acres was a large farm. Was it
safe to intrust the unlimited power of dealing with the rates
to such persons ? He looked on this provision with the
utmost alarm. His noble friend, (the Marquis of Lans-
downe,) said that the state of things in Ireland was likely to
diminish /174101 holdings. lie looked forward, and so did
he (Lord S;auley), to the formation of a system something
analogous to that of England, when the plough would be
substituted for the spade ; nor did he think, if
it were adopted, that it would diminish, but rather
increase the demand far labour. But the chance of such a
demand must arise out of the more scientific cultivation of
the land, which could not take place in the limited holdings
in Ireland. His noble friend said, as if it was the easiest
thing in the world, that the landlords must improve their
estates end enlarge the holdings. Why on an estate held by
the crown, which ought to be a model, they could not oust a
tenant at will, who had not paid aahilling for sixteen. Whet
had the crown done with that estate fur the last 15 years ?
His noble friend said that, as a necessary opncomitaat to thin
measure, tracts of land should be recovered, farms en-
larged, estates improved, and capital found. If practicable.
this would be admirable ; but it was impracticable. The mode
in which small holdings should be diminished was, by de-
creasing the motives of the holders to cling to them, and con-
solidate the farms. The clause of this bill which prohibited
the holder of land from receiving relief was calculated to
have this effect. Many a roan could support himself on
eight or ten acres of land, hut he could never produce any
effect oa the improvement or labour of the country. lie
could not employ labourers. The only chance for tee poli-
tical and social salvation of Ireland was the diminution
of small holders, and the extension of real labourers.
If labour was to be employed it must be by the occu-
piers, not by the proprietors, and it was ridiculous to charge
it on the Irish landlords that they did not employ the surplus
population, when their property was divided into holdings
of 15 acres, none of the tenants being able to give employ
meat to labour. It woe impossible for the landlords to give
any large amount of relief in the shape of labour, and if it
was expected that labour should be employed on the land it
would be through occupiers who must be substantial farmers.
Then what inducement could they hold out to the tenant to
induce him to give employment to labourers ? That which
was the best security for the employment of labour in Eng.
land would be equally so in Ireland. They must, in hying
the land, place additional incusabrenees upon its occupation,
so as to reduce the competition for its poesemion, and in
melting the bargain with the tenant, they must provide that
the occupier shall be chargeable with the poor-rates. Thus
the interest of the tumid would be united with that of the
landlord in keeping dews the poor-rate by the emnloymeut
of labour. He did not himself object to • li-
mited and well-guarded system of out-door relief,
but what he wished specially to urge upon the house was.
to avoid the fatal srror of legislating upon impressions. They
were now entering upon a great soda dangerous experiment :
be entreated that they would not make it more danzerou- by
permitting themselves to be led away against their better
judgment to legislate up the impressions of those woo
could not have the best means of judging what might eta-
ramely be the best for themselves or their country. (Hear.)
In throwing this burden upon property, if they did not af-
ford to the owners greeter means of improving tin it estates
than they now poeseseed—if they did not give them facilities
of obtaining (by fair means undoubtedly) possession of their
land now mismanaged by • number of small owners, a id, at
the same time make it the interest of the occupying tenant
to give employment to labour as the means of keeping down
the poor-rate, the introduction of this bill would be the most
fatal boon ever conferred upon Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Let
them enter upon the experiment like statesmen, not stop
half way, nor 'appose that they could throw a burden upon
the land without at the same time gieirg the land a greater
power of bearing it than fe now pomemeg. Let the govern-
ment look to thc gees% ion, not on the impression of the moment,
for on it would bear the future interest of the country—they
would have no party opposition to contend with—no petty
difference of opinion, no difficulty arising from a desire of
any party to displace them, on the contrary they would find
in that Is in the other house men of all sides anxious to unite
with them cordially in bringing to a successful issue this
great experiment. (Hear, hear.) Let them not be led away
by any impression of what might be popular for the
moment but rather let them consider what might
eltiniately lead to an improved state of society,
in Ireland—a state of society better organised, more har-
monious, and working together more for the general benefit
than that which now existed, or could ever exist while the
present system of sub I irision act land continued. For the safety
and permanent well-being of everycountry,but more especially
of Ireland, there must be a due combination of the three
great elements, land, labour, and capital. Now, there was
in Ireland, he believed, a surplus of labour beyond that
which could find employment in the efficient cultiration of
the hind. They roust first provide in some way for
the expatriation of that surplus labour. He be-
lieved that amongst the middle clam of Ireland there
was now much capital lyinu useless and dormant; this was,
in fact, proved by the large sums frequently realised by the
mail farmer when he surrendered his holding to a man
apparently no richer than himself. The disproportion be-
tween the hinder:ld the labouring population being dimly iiihed,
he believed there was now abundant capital—and in future
there would be much more—for carrying on the due
cultivation of the land ; but it was impossible that it could
be carried on under the present system of distribution,
and the result was that the capital now employed was not
sufficient to provide the re •osty labour to make the cal-
Bill&tiOR profitable. To make that capital, which was now
in a great measure locked up, useful, they must redistribute
the property, increase the size of the farms, and create a
class of people who should hare the means and the inclina-
tion
to employ the labour of the country on a more exten-
sive scale than the present occupiers had. (Hear, hear.)
He assured their lordships he had no disposition to
enter into tie committee on this bill with any
other desire thin to bring this difficult and com-
plicated question to a intocesshg issue. He and his
friends would not grudge it to the government should they
succeed in this important matter; but would rest perfectly
satisfied with the credit of haying supported and touted the
ministry in carrying it through. The auegntions they might
have to make should be stated with frankness and openness,
and with the view of making the bill as perfect as possible;
his earnest prayer was, that out of this perilous measure

Shay might, by acting together, and listening with Reim.
to eke arguments made on the ou• eide sad the
other, extract that which, though it shorld be nemeaudy
attended with much immediate difficulty, and lead to muck
immediate gaming, should end, ultimately, in the ached
reconstruction of Ireland, and the permanent improvement
of that country ; and if of that, then of all pare of her
Majesty's dominions. (Hear.)
he Earl of DESART, we've was all but inaudible in the
gallery, was understood to argue in favour of some measure
for the employment of the surplus labour of Ireland, es A
would be quite Impossible fur any poor-law teenaged if the
burden of supporting that surplus were thrown upon it. He
also took occasion to express his gratitude at the gene/eta
and noble conduct of the people of England in coating
forward as they had done to relieve the distress's
of their Irisk fellow-subjects, earl condemned In the strong*
terms the language which had been used by some parties
in
that country us speaking of those who were nationally their
brethren, and much more so by their conduct on the occasion
he referred to, as the natural enemies of Ireland, to be hated
and contemned be all Irishmen. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM objected that this measure would
afford no relief to the temporary pressure, while, on the other
hand, it would create a permanent difficulty. He reed's
mended that it should be limited in its operation fee nos
year, or some other fixed period, and if found to onek
usefully, it might then be renewed. Greet
would be the responsibility, and great as would be the peril
to the public peace of doing nothing on the ocessioa, it
would be a mere jest compared to the peril of sending ore,
to Ireland a bill throwing on the occupier of the Lai the
whole burden of this law.

Lord COLCHESTER should support the second reading
believing it to be the duty of every chrittian community
take care that no one perished front destitution; but he could
only support ths principle of out-door rilier on the mode:-
standing that it should be only given when the workhouse
was full, and there were no othsr means of affording relief-
The question, " that the bill be read a second tame," was
then put, and carried without a division; sod after a short
conversation it was arranged that the committee should hs
taken on Thursday next, and the committee on the Encum-
bered Estateallrelamd) Bill on Tuesday.
Their lordships adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUURSUAT, APRIL 29.
The SwrAuss took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
PF,TMONS.—By Mr. Spouses, from the Doke of Nevemle,
against the Manchester and Leeds Union Railway bill; then mi.
time against the York and North Midland Railway Brandies bill.
R EPO RTS. —Claridge's Patent Asphalte Compel; Colchenter
Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Railway (extension hum Laves.
ham to Bury St. Edmuntl'a); Coackester, Stour Talley, Sudbury, sag
Halstead Railway (Stour Navigation Piushese) ; kinockwar Mar.
kets; Scottish V.quitable Life Anuirance Society; Woharhamptia
the; Wolverhampton Rates; bills.
THIRD READLNG.—Hartlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock
extension).
LEEDS WATERWORKS BILL.
On the motion of Mr. GRIENE thin bill win withdraws,
and a new bill ordered to be introduced.

MANCHESTER AND SALFORD W ITERWORES,
AND MANCHESTER CORPORATION WATER-
WORKS BILLS.

Oi the motion of Mr. DI. Putties it watordered that the
committee on these bills have power to consolidate them into
one bill.

NEW WRIT.

On the motion of Mr. TcrNELr. a new writ wee ordered
for the county of Galway, in the room of T. B. Martin,
Eio detected.
BILLS FOR CONSTRUCTING CANALS AND

DOCKS.

Mr. W. PATTEN said that difficulty arose in at
classification of canals sod docks bills, which sought for tha
power of enabling companies to sell these undtreakism to
railway companies. He wished to know how they were to
be disposed of.
Mr. STRUTT said that DO doubt they ought to be re.
(erred to the railway commissioners.
RELIEF FROM AMERICA FOR THE DISTRESSED