The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

SEES OF ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR.

Mr. COLLET 1" moved for copies of all corre.pondvnce
with the Bishop of Bangor, of any cue submitted to the law-
officers of the crown, and of their opinion on the subject
previously to the appsintment of a bishop of St. Asaph is
July 1846. Ha uid that it would be resnem',ererl that, in
the early part of last session, he had asked whether there
was any intention, in the caseof a vacancy taking p:ace in
either of the sees, of uniting both. He Wished now to know
whether such was intended?
Mr. WAK LEY seconded the motion. _ _ _

Sir G. GREY said that all the corresponder ce that had
taken place was quite of a private nature. It was not in-
tended to consolidate the two bishoprics, in case of a vacancy,
without the consent of the survivor. He could not consent
to the hon. membcr's motion.
Mr. COLLE IT said that he should take the st nse of the
house on the subject.
Sir 0. GREY -

said that the hon. gentleman mitht have
—..ouerstood him. What he said was, that no consolida-
tion could take place, without a vacancy in the Lahoprie ;
and not then, without the consent of the survivor.
Mr. COLLETT : Is not it possible that they could die at
the same time ?

[Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and, on our
return, we understood that the motion was negatived,
without a division .1
DRAINAC; I,', OF LAND IN SCOTLAND.

The LORD ADVOCATE moved for and obtained leave
to bring in a bill to regulate the drainage of land in
Scotland.
..ENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.—
ADJOURNED DEBATE. _

GOV

Sir W. CLAY resumed this debate, end said that it was
his intention to rapport the motion of the hon. member for
Finsbury, but in doing so he would state the reasons which
induced him to come to that determination. lie intended
by his vote to es.r.iess his disapnrobation of the goveernmeit
plan, and not to pass censure on the government for intro-
ducing it, nor did he man to denote by that that his opi-
niea was that the st.te should not interfere with the educ
Von of the people. The noble lord said that he did not ap-
prove of every pert of the scheme; indeed, if the noble lord
kid not Val; them so, he would not have believed that hi
di.l approve of it entirely. Ile was of opinion that there
were such objections to the plan, that .it would be much
better to wait until they were able to propound a better
measure, and a more auspicious period, than to press this
one forwardi now. This was not a mere grant of 101,000/.
The government did more than look for that: they naked the
house to adopt a large principle of national education. His
chief objection to the bill was, that it would increase the in-
fluence of the church: he did not at all ague that it would
increase the influence of the crown. It would tend
to place the education of the entire people of
this country in the hands of the clergy of the church of
England, whom it would invest with entirely new functions.
He was told that the advantages offered by the
scheme would be participated in by the dissenters
if they would comply v.ith the necessary conditions,
but those conditions were too stringent to enable them to do so.
For instance the trustees and managers of schools must pro-
vide a house for the master rent free, and a certain sum
veiling from 301. to 60/. a-year, and he would venture to
ask in how many parishes in England the dissenters would
be able to comply with such a rule ? Obviously but in few.
(titan, hear.) It was scarcely necessary to say that the
Roman catholics would tyke no benefit from the measure. If
the noble lord had brought forward a comprehensive scheme
of national secular education, combined with the means of
religious views being inculcated by the spiritual instructors
of the children, it would have been very generally accepted;
meanwhile, so great were the objections to the proposed plan
that it was better to do without it until the country could
get a measure more worthy of the character of the noble
lord and the sanction of the house. (Hear, hear.) He
should feel it his duty to vote in favour of the amendment.
Sir 1. 8. PAKINGTON said he thanked the government
for the plan which they had proposed. The hard-
ship of the children of dissenters being excluded from church
of England schools, in parishes where the dissenters were
not sufficiently numerous to have schools of their own, bad
been complained of, and he thought with some justice. He
thought the time was come when the state was bound
to take some steps to meet the fearful requirements
of the country as to education, but, as an attached
member of the church of England, and .also as a
member of the National School Society, he would ap-
proach this great subject in a Spirit of charity, and
with an earnest desire for religious peace. (Cheers.) He
was anxious to call the attention of the house to one re-
markable instance in this country—to one of its most
splendid institutions, in which 1,200 scholars were educated
annually, who were the children of plants of almost all
religious denominations, and who, nevertheless, were oda-
cated together in perfect harm=y—(hear, hear) ;—and what
was more important, the system was carried out without the
slightest violation of rel igious duty. (Hear, bear.) He alluded
to King Edward's School, at Birmingham. He begged tore-
commend this system to the notice of the government. (Hear.)
As a member of the Church of England, he wished it were
possible to confine religious teaching to that church; but,
whatever were his wishes, he must bear in mind that there
were great religious differences in the country ; and looking
to that, and the degree of ignorance which existed in it, he
thought that much good might be done, that much evil
might be averted, and that religious peace would be greatly
promoted if those who were connected with the National
Society—those who taught on behalf of the Church of
rhigkeacCchh'ear7)remillidthe snake
eghmt mtheatec'insnee''tettiiro obenintghtiniz.
gain advantage by doing so. (Hear, )
He coalesced he thought the piearougit
tolibe on a larger scale. (If present
nt
.)m
after the declaration of the noble lord, that e
muserBtri'
would have been done for education. (Hear beer) At ;lee
sometime, he was ready to allow for the difficulties which
stood in the way of a more extended scheme, and that if
those difficulties were such as to prevent the government

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 1847.

from going beyond the present limited plan, that plan could
net be framed on a more judiceoes sail excellent system.
Mr. HUME was anxious to give his opiuion on a subject
which had engaged much of his attention. Ile must say,
with the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, that he telt
disappointed with this measure, after the address of
the nob:e lord to his constituents in the City of
London. He had expected a measure on such
a comprehensive scale as would be calculated to meet the
overwhelming progress ef ignorance and crime in this coun-
try. (Hear, hear.) He also concurred with the hon. mem-
ber in hoping that the Church of England and the dissenters
likewise would mutually concede some of their scruples on
this question, and unite for the suppression of ignorance and
its consequences. When he saw 7,000,000/. voted in the
army and only 100,0001. for the education of the whole
people, it appeared to him to he matter of reproach to them-
selves and the government, for he was sure tut people of the
country would be prepared tie bear a much larger charge for the
purposes of education, and the longer they delayed to grapple
boleti. with the difficulties of the question, the more diffi-
cult would it be found to deal with. - In England crime iu
the well educated counties was less by 32 per cent.
than in the counties where ignorance prevailed. He there-
fere, lamented that this measure was not more extended, and
named so that all Oases might partake of its benefice. Ile
might be told that this was the best measure which the
government could hope to carry. Ile doubted that. lint
the noble Jordon this occasion hart nut shown moral courage.
He was "finking," as it was now expressed. (Laugher.)
Let them understood that the church was opposed to general
education. With all their relies and paraphernalia he
wauld not care a pin for the bishoiss if they attempted to
oppose what was just and right. (Hear, hear.) There was
soother set of mon, the dissenters, which were almost as bad.
(Laughter.) Thcy were anxious to dragoon the public and
the house into their peculiar views, bet let the governmeet
go forward towards what was just, regardless of both, and
he had no fear for the ultimate result. (Hen, hear.) It
was said that the people most not ettly be instructed, but
morally and religiously instructed, forgetful that the first short
step towards morale and religion was to be instructed at all.
(Hear.) He was prepared
. to answer Mr. Baines and his
eleven absurd proposinons not one of which was tenable,
but he would not weary the house. He would only observe
that they could not be maintained for one moment by any true
friend of civil or religious liberty. (Hear.) It was said this
wag a difficult subject. Ile admitted it was difficult, but so
were many other things difficult to cowards. (Hear, hear.)
Let them stand up for the truth--let them have a committee
of inquiry, and have the best of the bishops and the best of
the dissenters before them, in order to ask them what their
case of morale was. (Hear, hear.) Its thought that the
government should have done what experience proved
ought to be done. Ile did not think that they were lees
capable of meeting the difficulties of such a question, than
the people of Holland, or the people of Ireland. (Hear,
bear.) With such examples before them, why not
try to intrudsee the same system? In the schools
in Dublin lie had seen, last year, Preteetant,
catholic, and persons of all religious opinions united; not
the least dissension being raised on the subject of religion.
If her Majesty's government would agree to the motion for
a committee, they would be able to see distinctly what it was I
that the church, on the one hand, end dissenters on the other,
had to urge in opposition to the establishment of a similar sys-
tem in this country. Let those, whether disierters, or
churchmen, who were quarrelling about points or little csn-
sequence, lay their handset, their hearts and say, if they could,
that by keeping up ouch rancorous feelings, in relation to
educati in, they were not the producers of crime ; let them
show, if they were able, that they were nut the real offenders
and ought not to take the places of those who were punished
by the state. (Hear, hear.) He maintained that such
parties were responsible for three-fourths of the crimes which
were committed. It was painfal to him to see so many of
his fellow-mea, because born in less fortunate circumstances
than others, consigned to crime and all itssircorupar. intents. Ile
thought the country required a more comprehensive measure
than that proposed, son Le should vote for the committee, be-
cause he would undertake to prove that a greater step could be
taken beneficially. He hoped to see the time when there
would be a Minister of Instruction, and a board composed
of members of different religious bOdiet, to promote the
work of education in this country.
Sir W. JAMES said be was in favour of the scheme be-
cause he agreed that they had now arrived at a crisis Su the
fortunes of the country e hen it was imperative that some-
thing should be done on this great subject. Without going
into statimical details, he would sok what could be more
lamentable than the fact that, of every 103 persons in this
realm of England, only about 30 or 40 were able to read ?
hear)—or the fact that between 800,000
and 1,000,000 children were left to run about the
streets, some of whom were brought up to rapine as a
professien, while nearly all were left "without Goal is the
world," and in a condition which must lead to ultimate
ruin. (Hear, hear.) He did n, t, indeed, consider the pre-
sent measure perfect, but ho thought that it was, upon the
whole, the best that could be obtained, while public opinion
preponderated, perhaps, in favour of it. (Hear, hear) When,
such men as Dr. Hook, on the one side, and Dr. Vaughan,'
• on the other, were seen giving up their mutual pre-
judices, and saying that they were willing to adopt a
system of secular education, it was impossible not to admit
that the popular current vies now running stronglyin that
direction. Most unfeignedly did he regret the exeffision of
his Roman catholic brethren teem this measure. The noble
lord at the head of the government, the noble lord at
the head of the woods and foreste, and the right hon.
Secretary of State for the Home Department, had ahjured
their own measure so far as to say that they could not fee
any length of time sit on the board if the Roman eatholies
were to be excluded from participation in the grants ; but
so far as the measure itself woe concerned, it was impossible
to deny that it created a new Roman catholic livability.
With all its disadvantages, however, be had, as he said
before, made up his mind to support this measure. Ile hod,
indeed, heard no arguments against it, and to it he should
give his support.
Sir J. EASTIIOPE deeply regretted the course which
had been taken upon this subject by her Majesty's govern.
ment. There wcs no occasion for the cone-Pion, they had
made. They had given way where they were not required
to give way. But ho voted for the measure Intense he would
not incur the opprobrium of opposing any measure
of education. To prevent was better than to punish, and,
therefore, to the benefit of instruction he was dispaseil to
look before any other meanie. lie seecially trusted
the wesleyans would read the speech of tee noble
lord the member fur Arundel, and learn from it a
lesson of charity and good feeling. (Ilea:, hear.) Ile loved
the noble lord for his boldness ; he loved him for his good
feeling; and were his words to consign him to a private
life for ever, he would add that he landed him for the
sentiment of his address. (Cheers.)
•

Mr. S. CRAWFORD said be should vote far the amend-
ment. Be was friendly to education, and friendly moreover
to education by the state. But if the state interfered with
education she should do so in a manner useful and oilcan-
teems t 4 el. She could not do so under these minutes.
Why had they not adopted the system in force in Ireland ?
union in education was of the greatest possible importance,
and it was because he entertained that opinion that he so
much deplored the course the government had taken with
' reference to Roman catholics. The government had invaded
the rights of Roman catholics, and on that ground alone, if on
no other, their proposals ought to be resisted. If the go-
vernment had acted toward the eatholics out of deference to
the Wesleyan', he believed they bad been deceived as to the
feeling of that body. Methndiste were very numerous in
the town he represented, anti they were very liberal in
their feelings towards their fellow-subjects, of whatever
persuasion. Believing the measure opposed to t'm
peinci-
l.le' of civil and religious liberty, he should decidedly vote
against it, although he should undoubtedly giro his vote
with great regret, both because he was voting against the
government and against a motion on the question of edu-
cation.

Sir W. MOLBSWORTH said he could not agree
with the propriety of of the motion of the honourable
member for k icebury for a committee of inqairy. The
hoc a was competent to form an opinion without any such
fisqt.:ry. But u they were to take the general debate upon
his e nendment, the first question to discuss wal whether the
date ought to interfere at all with the education of the
wopin ? Only two members, the members for Durham and
Nottingham, had argued in the negative of that proposi-
tion, and the arguments of both of them had been completely
answered. Wu there any reason on the other hand
why the state should not interfere ? Was the subject
unworthy the consideration of the state, or was the state
uninterested in making her children good and obedient nib-
jects 1 Education seemed to him to be the highest duty of
the state. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were of that opinion,
and we had advanced little beyond their views in ethics or in
polemics. The better instructed the people were, the richer
and better they were likely to become. We were at this
momenta'. our wits' end as to the best mode of checking
crime. We had tried all sorts of punishments, and all had
failed. Why not, then, try prerention, instead of punish-
ment / He felt persuaded that though a good system of
punishment might somewhat stay the progress of crime, no-
thing would diminish its amount so effectually as good
schools and good schoolmasters. (Hear, hear.) We had

also tried • pier-law to check poverty, and bad failed in that.
Let ua now try education to prevent it. (Hear, hear.)
Well, then, having disposed of that argument, he came to
the next point : what was the best mode of educating?
The education at present afforded in the schools for the
poorer classes was for the most part wholly inadequate—the
masters and =strews alike infirm in body and in mind,
many of them, indeed, having sought the office as a
last resource sga:nst penury and starvation, and been ad-
mitted to it as an act of charity, without any sort of refer-
ence to their qualifications. The advocates of the voluntary'
system said that in time they would give education to all,
but when was this time to arrive ? How much misery must
be undergone, how much crime committed, ere the millennium
of voluntary educators was attained? It was asserted
that the working classes repudiated the idea of state educa-
tion. He might certainly be mistaken in the matter, but
his belief was that the great body of the working classes
would infinitely prefa to have their children educated by
the state than by pi irate charity. (Hear, hear, hear.)
As to the extent to which education should be dd..
fused by the state, it appeared to hint that every child, the
poverty of whose parents presented them from procuring for
it instruction, should be enabled by the state to attain, at all
events, the elements of moral ani intellectual education.
He now came to the c,uestion of the exclusion of Roman
catholic*. (Hear, hear.) Their exclusion had not been
heard of until within the last few days. (Haar, hear.)
There was no indication F fit in the minutes of this bath of
last year; no mention in it in the reply madiagatar. K.
Shuttleworth on the part of the council, to the st
Mr. Langdalo for assistance to several Romaa edesale,
and that letter was dated en the 6th February bet, de
the contrary, that reply expressed. the Radium et the sound)
to receive applications equally frem Roman estholic schools
as from any others. (Hear, hear.) There was also another
letter, from Dr. Shuttleworth to Mr. Langdale, of the 18th I