The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-17 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 17, 1849.

bed irrusimputie• of the extra expe it
senmyss net • peram for time wore her pia with
whoa be Meads sa aromas thaw his dew hem
Mend Me Obanseller of the Inelemeer. 41„wismat3
demehrem or other, in say seder bstwout the tummy sad
Atialielty, the lamer always had the het of as intgain.
Velar these eireasailemes, maid the home weeder it the
ibet, ant the roam emir Nos. I and 2, had in the list
pear ernenated M I/44421. He had sever attempted to die-
gabs dr hes--imired, he had stated last ear-that the
wailer of eams brae had greatly a the number
amid, mad Or isles it meld b. brought down, •
imps MOM WY inevitable. Elora et the causes
of the same had been in operation daring the
racos.sr. spd From a return made up to the Ist
1848, wt instead of the sump cost having been
IR 11d. per seas, It had been durirg the Int tea wades
d the par VIL and it had taken ten months to
IPA dews Ma sumer of 8,07 earn above te vote
le Sib saw baker k. Whatever responsibility was attached
M Met mama lea demnsi entirely to Lord Auckland's ad-
minlinationof 01111 Aliaillaty. tits right bon. friend near
Ilia (Sir F. Baring), had nothing whatever to do with it.
To bin (lir. Ward) it had bees • subject of peep-teal
seilletf. es impair, If not eadangering, the administration
einem' affairs by his late lam ntod Mend Lord Auckland,
which had, he believed, been °Deducted with as pore a spirit
seed with as ggrreat a regard for the publio iaterest ea had
ever bees masifuetad by say man holding a public situation.
(Hear, hear.) And he would take that opportunity of &-
dares, as the malt d two years' experience, that he had
sum knows a public man who had a better sense of
tic resposeibilities which attached to office than that sable
het By his untiring industry, by his haparlleliz
sa
la the da, pettemare, and by lb perfect self .osa
he had the highest esteem both of his Filial
awed of sad he regretted that his departure Omit'
have robbed Ilm of the credit of a more commaiell deli
Onion at affairs. (Cheers.) Every cause which bad led to
earn is part years bad now been removed. While the Ad-
miralty had area a sufficient margin we regarded the
▪ her of am, they bad also brought the number within.
Ms Emile of the vete, and he felt sure that his right keel
dismi would maintain his ',safest-ground firmly end
dgeressly. He should be very much surprised if the pass
year was not the last one aerosol in a time of peace. (Hear.)
With regard to the estimates of the prow= year, the ells-
morsels which had taken place on the national expenditure
had enikeratly warned him that in sober. tins them to the
hems be had no easy task to perform. (Hear hear.) Ns
0d ant soy that they would please no party ; Miami he be-
lieved that there was both there and in the country • petty
of medial and moderate men to whom any goverament
might rashly appeal, if it showed en honest desire to emalete
meneeny Ira efficiency in the public service. (Hear, hear.)
He knew, however, that there were also two parties, one of
whom always thought that the government had done too lit.
tie' while the other were constantly complaining that they
had does too much. He was aware that there were MINI
who thought that, however the circumstances of this word
might vary, in dealing with the great bulwark of England,
not a ship or a man should be Usselsed • mad he
knew too, full well, that be had it li Immmlire
neighbourhood bon members who would tel Ilia that rice
redactions which he was about to =epees were merely a
miserable instalment of what the country had a right Ist
expect. Hoer, bear," from Mr. Hume, succeeded, by a
laugh) He had thought so. (Loughter.) Such gentleman
would not be satisfied with anything short of the stusdarded
1835, a standard which, so far as the navy was sonewasell,
had been selected with us little regard to past =pales= as
to the present wants recd requirements at the seastry.
(Cheers.) It was not a very creditable coincidence that,
while all parties in that house had concurred in taking thill
stembed at the moment, because they were engaged in a
Mures for popularity and place, no party bed subsequently
adhered to it. In the very nest year, without the slightest
=, the number of men was raised, under Lord
o's government, from 15,000 to 22,000, and under
the administration of the right hen. baronet the member fur
Tameworth it wan further increased to 26,000. Tile somber
was then released to 27,500 m+ n, and in the year 1846 49
the number was increased, with the addition of marry, to
43,000 am. It was impossible to swigs specific reasons for
sash inshaations. Something must be take& ea trust, some.
thing yielded to discretion ; but certain it was that the
Hems of on had acquiesced in every harms (Hear.)
New, happily, leered of leaving the house to either of the two
entamees, theetemmittee of last year had recommended a mid-
kessure, in the propriety of adopting whiat, al lie stated in
August lest, the Admiralty entirely concurred. Re then
stated that the Admiralty agreed with the committee that
the navy was the prop, r arm of Eastland, and that twain
bat an examive and ill-managed expenditure could deprive
its( the respect which it had previously enjoyed. He far-
ther mid that the Admiralty were prepared to adopt the
reemamemistra of the committee, that there should be a
gametal raisins of the naval eta. ions. The 'swims bad besa
revised, and be thought that with a reducion of 3,000
men the Admiralty could provide satisfactorily for
the honour and protection of the country. (Cheers.)
Sines that time his hoc. friend the member for
Montrose had taken the matter into his capacious
head. (Laughter.) To I" ill (Mr. Ward's) great surprise,
however, instead of adopting the standard of 1835, his hon.
friend had created a new one of his own. He thought, per-
haps, that if he proposed to go back to 15,000 seamen, 2,000
boys, and 9,000 marines, he could hardly expect the house to
adopt his mmesel. He had, therefore, chosen • very conve-
nts= barmy boos-thirty-five thousand met-where he
branded to stop till he could go further. ("Hier, hear,"
hom Mr. Hume.) Now, of course he did not think that a
recedes of 8,000 men from the number voted
last Ease was so objectionable, so imprudent or so
umafi as the reduction al 16,000 pearl by hi.
honouroble Mend the member tor the Wed Hiding
(Kr. Cobden), but at the same time it was much too large,
much too imprudent, and much too unsafe for the govern-
ment to meat to it. The government proposed a Mu-
ll= of 3,000 men ; his hon. friend's proposition went 5,000
below that of the government, and after his boa. friend's
mums had been stated it would be for the home to decide
between the two. He came now to the changes in form
which would be hand in the estimates. la that respect
every recommendation of the committee had been attended
to. In vote No. 1, at p. 8, the house would find tit.
monthly excess of men during the present financial
year," tads, No. 5, the " scientific branch," inched-
lag the east of surveys ; under No. 10, " naval
stares for the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet," etc ;
under No. 11 "new works, improvements, and repairs ;"
under N 0.13 was an analysis of the expenditure of 1847-48;
under 18 the borne department disappeared from the esti-
mates altogether, being transferred to the miscellanea= esti-
mates ; and seder what wu No. 19 the whole cast of the
contract packet service e as put under the head of Post-
office department, 50,0001. being thus added to the
eaboelleneous estimates. Now the house had here not
only the gross estimate and the net estimate, but
they had also the revised net estimate; in other
words, the estimate from which his right hon. frond the
Chancellor of the Exchequer deducted 288,0001. in August
hatooder votes 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 19, which were given
In • separate table in pegs 2. The house would, however,
pseeske that the gross estimate was the only facer point of
empadama between them estimates and the estimates of last
part hemmis what bad hitherto appeared as appropriations
la di time now paid into the Exchequer, and dee country
readout the benefit. The rose =revised estimate on 19
votes for 1848-9, was 7,518,8101. The decrees* on votes 1.
1,6, 6,7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, and 19
amsaated to no lees than 1,703,3021. • the intros'.
IPS isles 3, 9,14, and 18, emanated to 12,2001. The apps
said maim, was 1691,1021., From this was to be deducted
She mirk et mes is, for the home department, transferred
Mike makialhasses estimates, 63,9501 ; 611,8621. being de-
dueled he morass pockets, and 183,1951. for the packet
emeals, stores, repairs, &a, there was a
80,8071., leaving as the actual Ewing on
votes No. 1 to 17, 842,2951., es compared with the =revised
gross estimate of last year ; the saving on the contract
packets being 25,6481., and on Clama's vereels, storm,
repairs, &0., 75,5151. The do ea the two esti-
mates was 938,850, and if there were deducted
for saving by revised estimate of 180-0,_138,0001., the net
actual savingWOG the estimates of 11040 would mem&
to 730,8661.
these Now, be might be told that there was some
trath la figures, sad that he ed to make a
de 1849
between the revised mature of this year and d
as Musky turd. Many of the ealeaktimas ands milady
tensed es that ppouinmt, and it was to that he edirlhatea
the monstrous dissspeades as to the urea of saving
which, by may been reckoned at upwards Of
900,0001., while others had made it as low se 808,0001.
Bet if the revised estimate end the marl vete of
bet year were compared. the result would be the The
sea wised estimate for 1848-9, with the drafts la aid de-
amounted to 7,6101., ths dedwithe of
MAIM , left 7,518,6101,. a 5726 the actualsad vote Or lest melon.
The mallpeoposed for this year was 8,20,7404 The apps.
sore eavki was 1,278,0001. ; and, deduminethe estimate for
the throe wore transferred, there appeared a eadag on the
net revised naval votes, Nes. I to 17, of 449,9011.; assaying
in des peeked estimate of 66,0841. brought the mead , as
semparal with 1848-9, to 616,9721., and with
I. dd now paid into the Exchequer, aneonatiag
214,1111 M, they arrived main at • nuns Mai of MOIL
He admired firmthe figures were somplient4 sag mama
rikeetmd. bat such was, he believed, the maul saving
as somparts4 with the groan revised rammer et last year.
Ile reek he told primps that the had loon
espishardimmatry, and had &al nom
them had performed. In menroma sou by hum
ea
the of Mark, 1848, be hal shows a saving of
416,111111.. pmkelpelly on wo steam seaddnery, and
mossii.rd le also held oats redesign is sires, ste. of
making a real of IKON& 208,0001.
wee altrumeds shwa off in Auger t mad lam re-
Milelid:KbyNbemothe..o79....soc, weraidia
I:nentrttelmeephat"646lT,lniewhatainstibliewaystairethisitiag4:andehmad
ilsovisavee redeelea leptelaiLdramiabeWileisi
that"ifre oraitteaMisi.m:hismbbs.tralherellld.
1848, when the Admiralty for the bet time arra
ihelaremeths4 isite7erriaterthefo7rValpon,a7 bYtakingib. right hon.
the ego
of merle for (anabolic as the bete of the ad-,
mac he the year. The result had been a rear
ties ands the head of naval pairis of 27,01101.
17sikr vete No. 2 there was a decreer me meaparedwith tar
name Tees last year, of 115,0511. Thine they obtained the
whale beads,/ the ream:time, both in the number ram
mod in the seat efLrcivirons. In vote No. 8 there we. sa
imam of 9111., AV in the surveyor's depmelmemd of
re Admiralty, of which was to Wpm that
sad la pima' it from being se tp/treat as
=llllramt a ponied &sages. (Hear hear.) He mmo
a= oldie
lora peaseerwirveyer, without saying beci
be lad Menai be for :m
the ad vemteges whito his rim. Meh the ha had
trot Wasniess was a greater efficle- In a the =remand_
elkla d fie delkyartie. The vote for the aestie expedition

M.M. Met* dead quite imedelliat eat wash for
sea sm emedffilem, *we was am to Me effiimate d
24,11231. Time mesh* an *ea of he the sioney
the great Lamm. maim parallel th the Bight of
It bad been, bads quertabsed that the country had, as usual,
rid dearly the sequisitien el eeogrephisal knowledge ia
Africa. The Nib a my. Midileten, by whom the ram was
int wide/takes, had been sourileed ; but soother geolie•
man, with • nem homilite ametitutica, who mompaird
kiln, had sunived, sad was Retort out again to complete ffice
Moen which had beta sownseseed. Under vete ll—Me
erahlihmeats at bens—there was a reduction of
arising principall feem diminished superlatendesee VC,
dockyards, as twitsmmaded W the committee of last per.
Oa vote No. 8, under the bead of wain paid Ia the dock-
yards, there was a »deaden of 866M1. ; but of that sea
40,0001 was reduced by Me revision in August last. The
estimates fry this year issimied 8,9261. for additional here
in the dockyard smithsriss. mod 8,0001. for servers of the
yards, suctioned by tke semaktee. For this the public had
r aired mon than ea equivalent in a redaction of wages
to the assmat cf 62,6091. On mote No. 10, re-
ferring to stems there was • reduction of 342,8021.
as compared with last year. Last year the vote
wag 1,611,6211 • this year it was 1,168.8891.
The reduction was composed of these items. The timber
vote of last year was 489,0001 ; this year it was 386,0001.
The vote for other stores lest 75u was 655,0001 ; this year
it was 492,0001.—the total saving on these two items being
161,0001..er hi& we effected without trenchieg at ellen the e
Mau of the establishments. The reduction which took place
mosisted in the amount of consumption. Instead of 28.000
hods of timber, the estimate was for 21,860. On hemp
there was a saving of 12,0001., principally owing to a tall in
the price. Under the head of coals there wee
an increase of 7,000!. The estimate for contracts for
24-eliterraneen steamers was lees than last year by
108,0001. The Admiralty began the year with •
army liability for engines, amounting to nearly 160 0001. ;
20,0001. was put down to meet the wants which might arise
in restrict of steam machinery and steamers. Under vote
Nn. 11, for new works, the gross diuresis was 296,6671.:
but 620,0001. having been etre& off la the revision of lest
year, the net durum for the meson year was only
234,6671. Those who examined the estimates carefully,
would find the effillalla possible improvement in the
maner in which the items were stated. 'There was no nays-
ti fication or uncertainty about them. It would be satisfactory
to the house to hear that nearly all the great
works in the dockyards were complete. including those at
Woolwich, Chatham, Pembroke, and Deptford. Very little
remained to be dote at Portsmouth. The only heavy works
remaining were thus at Devonport, at Keyhans, and at
Bermuda. Though the amount proposed for Keyham
(120,00014 might appear large, the Admiralty bad
had great difficulty in inducing the contractors to re-
duce the amount below 160.0001, making the total
i xpenditure on that account 599,000/., or about
half the sum originally contemplated. We had now,
however, got Into a better system of keeping accounts
in the dockyards, which be was confident would lir
attended with the best results. As to the works abroad,
th..se at Bermuda were in the least satisfactory condition of
all. There was no place where so much money had been
spent, with so little to show for it. (Hear, hear,) The
works at Bermuda had been going on ever since 1815, and
up to three or four years since no one had ever heard any.
thing like an intelligible notion of what had been done, was
doing, or wee about to be done. Then bad been ell
sorts of plans proposed, all of which had been tried,
and all of which had been surcessively abandoned. During
the past three or four years, however, the operations had
proceeded upon • distinct and intelligible principle ; the total
cost of completing them, it was ascertained, would be
143,0001., but this outlay, if the house so pleased, could be
spread very well over several years. That the works at
Bermuda, so long and expensively in lemma ought to be
completed, weak, he thought, be admitted on all hands :
the importance of the place as • naval station with
relation huh to the Weet Indic a and to the
United States was beyond dispute; the house, how-
ever, bad the matter in their own hands, and must cur-
elms their own judgment upon it. Speaking generally with
refer noe to the public works under this department, be
would Omens that during the years which the hon. member
for Montrose insisted upon as the pattern period these works
were wholly suspended, with this dangerous result in pros-
put—that, before long, Great Britain, as far as her naval
stations wore coneereed, would not only loss her claim
to be considered a great naval power, but would
be in • position exposing her at any moment to a
moot perilous blow from any other naval power that chose
to assail her. (Hear„ hear.) Even in the extravagance
which had followed that period of excemive parsimony, the
outlay of public money had not been at all characterised by
that noblemen of expenditure which had been exhibited by
many of cur railway companies, whoa affairs were directed
by men reported of the highest mercantile sagacity.
Inly upon it, the best argument that diplomacy could
use to check the angry passions which the wisest nations
were subject to, was to show that their indulgent* would be
dang.rous to those who yielded to them. (Hear, hear.) In
the 13th voter'hfisoellaneous, there was a decrease of 13,1421.,
occasioned by the relinquishment of the plan of coast guard
drill, the mons already expended upon which, however,
under the d of Capt. Stewart, had been most use-
fully employed. In the 14th vote, for half pay, there was
an incases* elf 2,6121., or, upon the revised vote
of last you. :of 12,6121., an Increase oreadoned
by the umber of ship that had Mu p.W off. As to the
half pay there milted grave misconceptions; the hon. mem-
ber for Meatemse sensed to regard the half.pay list as a sort
of government for the sone, and nephews, end what
not, of the . God help these parties, if they had
no better resource than half-pay ! (Hear, hear.) The sim-
ple fact was, that the officers whose rams occupied the half-
pay list were, to a large extent, the very men who, having
served their country during the war against France, had, when
that war ceased, been deemed to have merited their country's
grateful ears. Of the 3857 officers in receipt of half-pay, no
fewer than 1916 were wholly incapacitated, as the result of
their gating cervices; and the hon. gentleman need not her
that the number was not diminishing. Between 1830 and
the present time death had been at its work with these old
servants of the country. In that period 2,034 names hod
been struck off the list by death. The government would
take good are that no improper augmentation in the list
should take place; but it must be remembered, if there was no
prospect of promotion, or of future benefi's to be arrived at,
no man who could get a crust in any other profession would
enter the service. (Hear.) To the next vote, 9,7571., for
good service pensions and snowiness, he believed not even
the hon. gentleman behind him would object. As to the
=lnner Ia which they pensions had been allotted doting
the put thee years, he would readily appeal to the judg-
ment of the whole service. (Hear, hear.) In the vote for
civil pens there was an increase of 6,3131., necessarily
oe
d by the reductions which had taken place
is the various yards, involving, as • matter of more
Patin, superannuation allowances in • number of cases.
Its the 17th vote, for transports, there was a diminution of
700,3001., arising from the cirmierstance that there would
this year be fewer reliefs than bad been known for many
years past. The Post-office vote spoke for itself. He would
only, in reference to it, state that when the Holyhead Dem-
psey should think fit to propose reasonable terms, the go-
verement would willingly transfer the whet service between
Holyhead and Dublin to the Holyhead Company. (Hear,
hear.) As to future changes in the dockyards, these would
in future doped in great measure upon tie respective heads
of the mils. And, in their selection of the heads
themeless, the Board of Admiralty must look lea
to the mere unties of past services than to the
psueeut aptitude he active and energetic work in the
easffidene. With rekeenes to the building of ships
that took pines Let per, material errors were circulated.
We berm, sertaiely, is 1816, with an immense capital of
Mtalottot
and we bed meat it lavishly. Sines that year, the
ca vessels et all rates was 176 ; there having
been 403 Mina op, or cat down, or lost, and 304 built,
the smoky he sew building was clear. There had been
sin satire imp is the calibre of the guns mounted by
*hoe monstrise, wassitating a Make change on our
mater
sod the pdadpie of ship-bedhling itself had, es a
of mese, boss to an humbug extent changed.
The battle d tbe Nile was haght with 18-pounders ;
sew, 60 ma 411-emsders wore mama in all skips
The at which sides wen building had been very much
exaggerated reeently. Meet bus. memben would have seen
• dada which it was snorted that there were oe hue
them OT dips of all classes on the stocks. This was set emir
en absurd enemies, but it was impossible to be true. Therm
were emly 38 Minot all rates sow building, and dummy
moss prebehty ems in the writer of the statement MM.
taken into his eakadatioa ships, the orders for lenildhqr
whisk had hem long since cancelled. It was the
Means& of the Admiralty to adhere to the pro-
taTrlaid down by the surveyor of the navy
nest
Ave years, and to carry n oat in all its_parts.
Then was another point on which he must touch. It had
hem asserted that ships, if used well, would last 40 or 60
years. This was a mistake. The ammo duration of ma
of war was 15 years, and at the ad .1 that period they ero-
de:went large repairs, which won shaft as good as rebuild-
ing them. The Canopus had been hold qq as a medal of
what a ship ought to be, and the Midi of
time that meal had endured bad else hum& the woods of
meek miessamiimm. It had been ask id why ddps eta simi-
lar Mild, mist bating as long, had set been constructed.
The Campus was taiga is 17911, sad she cost almost
immediately after the was matered 16,0001. to put her into
repair. At Ave different perish enhespently—namely, is
1816, 1826, 1831, 1842, and 1841—she had undergone repel=
which amounted in the aggregate to 136,6231, a sum whisk
would have seamed to have bunt two similar ships. The
Nelson, main, bad been cited as another example; but the
mousy wasted is deesenticas sad caudate of that vessel
was eat 1111•1104 NA thus she wee war it it service. TM
beastifel system of 'WHAM Seppingd, of penny semi
sterna to men-ef-war, had cost the country 1,500,000 L,
which was entirely thrown away. (Hear km.)
He bed little mere to lay, save to thank the hoagie he the
indulgesee shoes Whim. He trusted the navy wee k Salk
a state eels lathe all those who desired to see
naiads bee navel superiority. The Board of vimiaNy
was taking 111111111M111 to enure respendbtliqq on Ms pat of
all the hoods el depsrtneests It mil tbe bevmstiee of the sand
envier, eat tbe Ina umber he Mostressermild find melba
pert of the peommat ths stressed dsake to carry out lbe
nandoeismilid mama of econemy, consistently with what they
tbe Me lateens dike country. He begged, there.
he., to coach& by propodng that the number of seamen,
marines, end boys employed in the maim year in the navy
he Ind at 40,000.
beTybreurrimie. HvoUtellhaEhim.vinesigdbilitne piste eandeneftlawbe
beigilbeolchlittbthiasabom. sexton:,
Ma of the eidnvinumos end waste eammithil in the naval
department would be polarised at the sera made by
those who violet to 'RIM a reamed= .1 Ik. expen-
diture. The his. vet tuber hed amend that the navy
was is paha Mee. Se had sever bawl my Mew state.
matt ttesperom sump*. lion boa pallsmatdeustios.

Never was it acknowledged that any errors had been com-
mitted by the navel authorities. But was it not a reproach
to the homes to have sanctioned such a system of =Wave-
games as that which the hoe. gentleman had exposed ? The
hon. gentle man had stated that in 1816 there w.s • large
fund of ships forming the naval stock of the empire. If lit
turned to Hansard,. he would find repeated attempag re
corded therein as having bean made by him (Mr. Hume),
in 1818 to 1826, to order to pat a atop to this extravagance.
Within thew years, no late than 23,000,0001. had been
wasted on the navy. But how was it that the hon. number
had discovered all these extravagances and miedoings ? He
had moved the naval estimates during the last two yeses
according to his own statement, and how was It that he had
before detected the faults he now laid bate? Whence
did the light break in upon him ? The oommittas it was
that had brought all these wasteful proceedings under the
public eye, that erammittee for moving the nomination of
which he had been so much abused. He must say, to the
credit of the noble lord who sat near him, that be de-
served the utmost credit for his efforts and la-
bours, but still there would be very great difficulty before
any results were a' tallied. Every member of the committee
of whatever party he might be, had also dote his utmost
to promote the objects of the inquiry, and to 'afire* the
errors of the past 'management of the navy. But notwith-
standing the hon. gentleman's admissions as to the past, he
must bear to be told that the actual management of the
navy was not a bit better than it halt been. The number of
ships that were building, and the quantity of stores that was
required, did not accord with the professions of economy
that had been made. With respect to one point
on which he bad been somewhat unfairly subjected
to blame, namely, as to he effect produced up=
honest hard-working artisans and shipwrights by the redue
Lion of wen which he proposed, he must beg leave to say
that he had net bean aware of the manner in which reduc-
tions of the establishments bore on individuals affected by

them. All he had to say wee that men were enticed front
other occupations, and led to expect pr rmanent work in the
service, and then the Admiralty in a sudden fit of economy—
(a laugh)—yes, a sudden fit of economy, which con-
trasted strangel and even violently, with their habitual
extravagance, a vest number of these ship-
wrights, and threw them without resource upon the labour
market. When he was told, as a reason why the charges
ger building and repairing ships were so heavy, that the
reentry required a certain lone to be kept up, he must say
that the mode of keeping up that naval force by letting the
@We rot ia harbour was most wasteful. Why not bare
allertain proportion always at tea in turn ? The fault
lay in the house not looking more narrowly into the esti-
mates before they were proposed in committee of supply.
It France and Belgium the ministers were compelled to
justify every item in their respective budgets before com-
mittees of the assemblies, revious to being permitted to
propose them in the Houses of Assembly. He had vainly
tried to enforce the same system here. He could not under-
stand why the estimates should not be referred to a com-
mittee up stairs before they were proposed in committee
of supply. He made these remarks, because he thought
that by perseverance—(hear, hear)—he should be able
to succeed in compelling the minirers to take the coulee
he pointed out. Let there be oblivion guaranteed
for the past, provided the government entered upon a new
course, now the errors of former administrations had been
discovered and admitted. There had also been some very
severe reflections made upon him, as if he had grudged the
half pay of the naval (Meets. He did not grudge any pay
for past services, but he did object to see young men
entering the navy and thrusting aside older mn,
who were compelled to pass their lives in the
receipt of half pay whilst they were burning to
be actively employed in the service which they loved.
His hon. friend (Mr. Ward) had stated that the service of
the navy errs carried on independent of patronage. That
might be true as far as Lord Auckland was concerned, and
he hoped it would pries true for the future, but certainly it
was not so es regarded the post, when patronage was
certainly the governing principle. The hon. secretary
for the admiralty bad expressed • hope that the house
would not support his amendment; he would, there-
fore proceed to state the grounds upon which he
moved it, in order at least to enable honourable
numbers to understand what it was he proposed. He had
taken as the bean of his calculation of the number of men
required for the navy, not the favourite year 1836, but an
average of the five years from 1835 to l inclusive, during
which period the mean number of men employed in he navy
was 31,460. The house was now sated for 40,000, whilst in
the year 1840, when the Syrian war was raging, there were
only 34,000; and when the noble lord, the Foreign Seers-'
Lary, proposed to add 7000 marines to the naval force, he (Mr.
Hume) had unsuccessfully opposed him. But he did not desire
to bring the number of men down to the average of 1835-9,
nor yet of 1840. But simply to reduce them to 35,000. Was he
rash in asking the house to descend again to the level of the
years 1835-1639 ? He would even be contented if this was
effected gradually, provided it was done ; and of that the
hon. gentleman might be quite persuaded the country would
at length make sure. Down the number must go. Would
the house believe that the number of ships at present was
460—namely, 208 in ordinary and 252 in commission, added ,
to which there were 32 ships now building. Let them
put en end to building altogether. The proportion of ships
employed on foreign stations since the year 1835 had very
greatly increased. On the Pacific and south-east coast of
America station there were, in 1835, 14 eltig end 2,091 man.
In 1848 there were on the same nation ships and 6,431
men, snowing an Juergen of 12 ships and 3,340 men on this
station. On the west coast of Africa and the Cape of Good
Hope there were employed, in 1835, 13 ships and 1,065 men.
In 1848 there were 37 ships and 4,647, making an increase of
24 ships and 3,682 men. On the Mediterranean station,
where, according to Sir :0:51. Cockburn, ono ship-of-the-line
and 2 frigates were a sufficient squadron in times of peace,
there were, in 1835, 23 ships and 6,236 men : in 1848
there were 31 ships and 8,337 men, making an increase of 8
ships and 2,101 men. Now, he would ask whether there
was not on these three stations an excess of ships and men,
and whether 35 ships were not capable of doing all the duty
there was required in those seas ? All he asked for was, that
• redaction of 8,000 espied the proposed reduc-
tion of 3,000 of the government, should be agreed to.
Now what was the proposition which be submitted to the
house? There were 69,000,0001. collected in the course of
the year; and out of that sum, and not out of the 11,000,0001.
he proposed to make reduction,. There were 41 millions
expended in collecting the revenue; but he was convinced
that 2 millions annually would clear the whole expense.
The estimates were characterized by most extraordinary
extravagance ; and the confessions of that night could not
lesen the anxiety to diminish the expenses, for it was now
admitted that they were in a condition to call upon
the government to have every department overhauled.
(Hear, hear.) The cost of collecting the revenue was
as much now that 700 articles had been struck off the list as
when there were 1,100 articles on which it was collected.
He contended, sad would repeat, that 2,000,0001. should
cover the whole charge • but if they employed in one case
nine commissioners, and in another seven commissioners, to
do the work of one, they could not expect to have any limit
to their expenditure. (Hear, hear.) In addition to this, he
would make the crown lands productive, and in the civil list
,he would make a considerable reduction. (Cheers.) Why
should they have three or four pensioned chancellors,
with 5,0001. a year, when one acting chancellor
would mace ? Was it not possible that by abolishing
the meek sovereignty in Ireland they might save 100,0001.
a year? And was it not possible after the exhibitions they bad
had with regard to the navy, ordnance, and army to make
great reductions in those departments ? And In the colonies
again, was it not monstrous that three or four millions a
year should continue to be paid for their management when
the people of England actually needed the necessaries of
life? (Cheep.) He would ask whether out of that
69,000,0001. it could be denied by any person who had looked
into these estimates that a large sum might be spared?
(Hear, hear.) But if they wished to economise they must
reduce the number of their men to the average to which he
had referred, and must determine, as be hoped they would,
that title vote should be reduced to 35,000 men. (Cheers.)

Sir F. BARING concurred with the hoc gentleman who
had just sat down in thinking that it was a great misfortune
that that house sometimes looked with very large and
liberal views at the public expo: &are, whilst at other times
they were inclined to throw themselves into the opposite
extreme, and to reduce the expenditure below what was
absolutely essential. (Hear, bear.) Having been a member
of the committee which had sat upon this subject
he was inclined to admit that owing to irregularities
or a went of system, there had been an expenditure which
might have been sued. Still, they must remember the cir-
cumstances of the case. The introduction of steam, for
example, into the navy, had changed the whole face of war,
and it wu necessary that this country should not be left in
an unprotected state. In April, 1848, there were 45,947
men actually on the books, and they propoeed now that
40,000 only should be voted. It was proposed practically,
then, that there should be a reduction of 8,000 men in the
course of the year ; and the bon. gentleman now proposed •
still further reduction of 5,000 men, making in all nearly
11,000. He did not think, towever, that the hon. gen-
tleman had made out grounds for any suck reduction.
The world was not quiet in 1835 or 1848. His hon. friend
forgot that they were compelled by treaty to keep up a squa-
dron on the coast of Africa. That squadron could not be
got rid of by reducing the number of seamen. That had
been a subject of inquiry before the committee, and he
trusted that the house would not, from motives of economy,
so far give way as to reduce the number of men will a view
of petting rid of the squadron. There was another point
which his hon. friend had likewise omitted to men-
tion. We were bound to keep up five ships in China. These
squadrons ereated a necasity for 2,600 or 3,000 additional men.
In Batten of this kind, • reliance must be placed to a ay-
, tan extent, tea those who were at the head of the govern-
, meta. It would be easy for him to show, by a comparison
i with the force of other countries, that it would not be advi-
sable to have low hands than there were ; but he was glad to
be relieved from any such task, which was always one of an
invidious kind. He thought it better to plus this matter,
cm that which was the real constitutional ground, viz., that
of its being a question of ooufldence, the government
of the day being the beet judges of the star of
affairs. The hon. gentleman admitted that commerce
required protection; and if he (Sir F. Baring) did
not admit it, he should be reminded of it my often. Siena
he had been at the Admiralty he had not been without ap-
plications from different parties, &Wag, under the present
state of affair, not uanaturelly, for the protection et •Bri-
fish ship of war, and he believed the first sot that !ng:-
formed in the haw, since he had held his present o
wee to answer a question of a gallant agar whether he
would not allow a ship to be constantly stationed at Cali-
fornia. There would be abundant opportunities of going
into the other details, and all he asked at present was that
the house would carefully consider before they followed the
motion of the hon. member. He had not himself been
brought up in the school of extravagance, and he treated
that after the large reduction+ which the government had
already proposed to make, the hones would pause before
the, forced goverment to reduce the amount of seen be-

low that which wee ',reposed by the vote. and 1,14
brlieved wax necessary to the real service of the conetry.—/
Mr. WODEHOUSE took a review of various propogtkei
for reduction, submitted by Mr. Hume at twiner "
said intimated his intend( n of opposing the hon. el*
now ar.d hereafter, u hs had done on all former mew",
Mr. MITCHELL dissented entirely from the aineah
thinking that the effective force of the navy, army, of (R.
nance must be kept up. The hon. member proved.'
enlogike Lord Pahnerstone's foreign policy, praising bin is,
backer of the emu of freedom, and that against tee oplii e.
of nearly the whole of the metropolitan press. The way's
prevent war was by having as effective navy.
Mr. URQUHART thought the number of men liked fir
requisite, hut only on *cement of the Foreign Seerstm,.
policy ; but before he gave he vote he should require a au.—
rantee that the forces should not be employed se theyliii
been in the Mediterrarean.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that when lest year the bee
member had asked him whether her Majesty's forte
be employed only consistently with the law of nations h
had certainly answered without hesitation in the sill e,t
but new when the qu stion was relented, his answer 'depend on the construction put on that law. will"
entering at length into a question for the diuossion dein*
there would be future opportunities it appeared to him thatSir W. Parker hod been fully justified in the aoudad IR,
cued by him at Messina. The admiral had received ats4
moss instructions, but having interfered between the
of the Two Skillet and the Bidden, on grounds of hassle,
be kad subsequently received the approval of goveramei
for his conduct. The hem. member conceived that ia,
stead of approval, Sir W. Parker should have mei*
letters of recall, as having violated the leer of welt
So long, then, as the government and the hen. member.%
so much at issue as to the construction of the law due*
it would oe quite impossible for him (Lord J. Rama) le
give any pledge on the subject, lie had hoped that tkakm.
member would have imitated the laudable example of the
hon. member for Bridport, and reposed oosildenes ie th
government ; but, eh he to quired a guarantee which ma
not be given, he must leave him to take his own coarse.
Mr. URQUHART expressed his dinatiofaction at thee.
planation of the noble lord, and would bring forelegs
specific motion on the subject.

TH
SiroootheWelhto..:bifrne.OannleLimuknEnedtsmta:S.irWb:etreyOnweAßaniturrefrlawd:eonhuontichnsm:zoookapoltsdiloemh:ae.connhi:tc.7mendhedt,,hoodethhaaciettiervkagovinamothmenno:Riag.r.ltleseisz
Lary for the Admiralty on the ability displayed in his
the presence of abuses in his department Irma
and
odo"
st:
re down
economy2which therefore might be attributed to the eine
Last year the navy estimates exhibited a redact* el
deserved credit for their exertions to reduce expedites,.
but there was still ample room for further reduction,.l
therefore he hoped that they would not relax in their an
titans. With a v;ew of ascertaining what redusiommitht
be made, he wished to cell attention to the ceases Sue
had led to the gnat increase in naval expenditure, Hey
increase might be attributed, first, to the increase of tis
force of the navy ; secondly, to the intzeduetion of use
power; and, thirdly, to improvident expenditure is oz.
nexion with naval works. The naval expenditure mast le
classed udder separate heads—numerical lore, stalk*
meets, and dead-weight. In the expenditure for emend
force, he nom, ly included wages and victual., *Oh*
deafly bore a direct moooreion to the amount of that fens.
For instance, since 1835 the amount of force had inamed
from 26,500 men to about 40,000; and the wages and vier*
from 1,300,0001. to 1,900,0001. It was obvious, thee, tit
if they witted to reduce expenditure in these branches, they
must been with reducing the amount of numerical fees
The next head was naval establishment', under whiek
head were included six votes, ler istablohmeet
home and abroad, for wages of workmen at hone eel
abroad, stores, new works, and repairs. Under pops*
nagemeet the se items would have borne a proponents tit
amount of numerical force, but be found that they hid in
creased in a much greater ratio. Since 1835 the amenity'
for those items had increased 150 per cent., while**,
half had only increased 60 per cent. In fact, the emead.
tore had increased in exact proportion to the number dnr
employed iu the dockyards. In 1834 the number of man
employed was 5 800 ; last year they amounted to 13,800„
(Hear, hear.) In 1834 the expenditure for those stab*.
meats was 1,000,0001. ; last year it was 2,500,0001. (Hesse,
hear.) The First Lord of the Admiralty attributed ti
great increase to the introduction of steam power; bet,
in addition, the lion. secretary had Looney sL
mitted that there bad been most improvident amnion
in connexion with his department. Year after yeutg
had been built, accumulating only to perish of the drys'.
During the last two years 25 line-of-battle ships and 13 he
gates bad been laid on the stocks, involving an emerald
2,500,0001 On the Ist January, 1848, there were tees
mission 17 ships of the line and 32 frigate'. In *any
there were 64 ships of the line and 63 frigates. What*
the use of such an enormous fleet, greater than acmes
' ployed at the Nile, Copenhagen' and Trafalgar all erten?
But notwithstanding all this he found that lug yea than
had been placed on the stocks 20 line-of-battle shim sale
frigates. (Hear, hear.) The estimate for these en
, 2,000,0001., and they would require 20,000 men Ti
steam navy was returned last year at 4 lint-otbask
ships, 28 frigates, 48 sloops, and 28 gun sank,
and would squire 14,000 or 15,000 men. The en
penes' in this department had been enormously on
handed by what the Secretary for the Admiralty tad joie,
designated improvident expenditure. The late govern**,
with little knowledge and no experience, ordered no ten
than twenty-one iron steamers, but, when nearly finished,
was found, by experiment at Woolwich, that they wee
wholly unfit for warlike purposes. (Hear, hear.) iket
were abandoned • others were converted into troop-Ihien
but, in these bat cases, the engines were found to be tee
large, end it was not known what to do with then, al,
though they had cost 70,0001. It was suggested to put tbea
in ninety-gun ships. but that project was rejected by than.
va! committee. It did not appear that greater nieces ha
been attained in the wooden steamers. (The bon. ban*
here read a list of the wooden steamers which had all bee
pronounced " crack," or "slow," or otkervie
imperfect, before the naval committee ; but th
noise of eonversation pervading the house prevented on
catching the names.) Such was the report of some of tet
largest steamers: he trusted that there would be betters
count of the 28 built last year. (Hear, hear.) Under ti
pretext of economy large sums had been expended on*
construction of steam factories, it being alleged that in.*
establishments easels could be built 15 or 20 we*
cheaper than by contract. He disbelieved that 'totems!
altogether. (Hear, hear.) In private yards the object es
to obtain the maximum of work, while in government do*
yards it was the maximum of iollenees, to which might be
added the recent insane attempts to convert skilful artists
into very indifferent soldiers. (Hear.) The building sad
repairs of these factories might be set down at' wow.,
the interest on which would pa the whole expense of re
pain if done in private yards. He had endeavoured to step
the further progress of those works, being of opinios
that it was better to put up with the pre•
sent loss then to continue a foolish eared**.
It appeared to him that if they really wished to reduce the
expenditure, they must not only reduce the numerical fore'
of the navy,—the number of ships in commission adds
number of workmen in the dockyuds,—but they must tete
care that no new works were commenced without tall
means to obtain beforehand a good and accurate estimate
the coat. The last head of expenditure to which be *di
refer was the dead weight. he amount of the dead weight
depended on the number of officers employed in the mak
and who were afterwards eligible for retiring allowenceli
twr
Pay, &c. That number it would be imagined would, after
a long continuance of peace, be considerably reduced., It
had been so in the army, but not in the navy. gaol
1823 there had been a reduction in the deed
weight of the army of one fourth, while in the
Davy the decrease had been lees than one-ninth. He
imagined that the number of cadets and admissions intothe
navy should bear some proportion to the force kept upend*
number of men employed. So fee from this being the NA
be found that the number of cadets had been ens tans
greater in 1846 than it was in 1837, though the number of
ships and men had increased only one-third in the erase
time. This lavish admission of cadets could not, he tholgidi
be too strongly condemned, as, besides the increased ups*,
it occasioned, it produced disappointment, dissatisfaction,'"
discontent amongst the offices themselves, as the
natrosi
CODII queen of every rank being overstocked—aad it mace'
eioned further that pressure on the Admiralty for war
motion and war employment, which they found so inetatet
nient, but yet so difficult to resist, and which lid
induced then to put into commission morn ARM
than the number of seamen voted by parliament could 21111.
Hence the continuous increase in the number of NO"
and consequent increase in the naval expenditure. am
the vast fleets scattered over every part of the globe, I*
existence of which afforded to the noble Secretary for /4'
resin Affairs almost irresistible temptation to interfere ia
the
affairs of fore ion states—to regulate the succadon t lho
throne in Portugal and Spain—to enter into a war for the
suppression of the slave trade in Africa—to contest the
divine right of kings in Sicily, and to do he knew not eat,
in the River Plate. By limiting the number of ad-
missions they could limit the future amount of the
dead weight, but only by that means, therefore a
was the duty of parliament to mast that the number of an
voted should not be exceeded. (Hear hear.) 01 late Pen
a bad habit bad grown up of employing more seamen this
the number fixed by the house, and of hiring more neatm
then the number for which parliament voted wages, when Ik'
estimates were under confederation. The consequence**,
seas
that they had, year after year, votes for naval excess,
continuous and growing increase in the naval expenditure.
The fact was, that the Admiralty fixed the navy, not Est
ing to the will of parliament, bat according to its ono I,*
and pleasure. The hones should insist that on no seems:
should the number men and the force. voted be exceeded'
unites good and valid reasons were given immediately oh
the meeting of parliament. (Hear, hear.) He now cane
to the vote before the house, via., the number of yak!!
the ensuing year. Last year the number voted was 43,000 s
end the number employed was, *cording to the hot
gentleman (Mr. Ward), 3,000 or 4,000 mere ; this year
was to be 40,000, being a reduction comically of 3awe
but really of 7,000 men. (Hoar.) This was certain'? s
good beginning. But there was ample grounds for as
tion even to a larger mount. (Hear.) He with
bis honourable friend (Mr. Hams) on this ODMW.,
and would make the reduction on the ships oa
foreign stations. There were in all en (war die
lions besides the Mediterranean (which was not now col-
sidered as foreign), in all of which our naval force bad
ea
much increased since 1841. The force on the East I ,
and China stations, including: New Zealand and 8°61!
Australia, before 1840 averaged 10 ships and 2,000 ter!
When the war with China arose that force was, of mare!
wolgssretuatlyideyarsedincreinost increased; it
nitedtforoshadtogisrnlithisbeia. reiganduced4d,s4:73cproeimtainien.i.