The Express.
London, England, 1853-07-01 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 1, 1853.

bena'llieninish but the sensuroption had immeshed to cated the government of India from the imam—
s.
' Such esq este AIM takiag the usual average of 121 b. charges brought against them. /deny hon. gentlemen
a hey the. I Marl consumption would represent • seemed to forget that the Court of Directors must exist for
q or a million of people. Then game his boo. and the next 20 years, during which the dividends of the pr
the.
le- friend the member ter Bath, who told them that prietors °Crock would be paid out of the Indian revenues ;
e. ple ed India had consumed so much salt, and in sub • as there was no proof of gross mismanagement, it appeared
yeses so much less, and he argued that their condi- to hen desirable to make use of the existing machinery
Vt% so mach the worse. Precisely the same =Luke for that period. In the constitution of the court, however,
was made by him. The revenue was less because the duty there was one blot which almost every witness had hit. It
had been reduced. Then, again, his hon. friend the mem- was stated almost unanimously that the aecessity of a long
' bier for Manchester quoted some document the other and tedious canvass had deterred the best Indian servants
night, showing that 90 per cent. of the produce from offering themselves for seats in the direction ; and that
was taken by the government for the rent of the blot the government wished to remedy by placing in the
land. The hon. gentleman meet have entirely forgotten court six experienced persons ham Indio. (Hoar, herr.)
his own report, because it was stated in it that measures The noble lord did not seem prepared to maintain that the
' had been taken, for the purpose of correcting the over as- Court of Directors ought to he continued as it stood—that
sessments, and that nothing more was required than to take the patronage and the form of government ought to remnin
measures to complete the survey. The hon. member for unaltered ; and he ought, therefore, for the sake of canoes-
Sunderland referred at some length to the con:me:Mel tency, to vote for the second reading of the bill. What his
state of India, sad to their not taking so much of our right hon. friend the member for Edinburgh justly termed
manufactures as other nations did. Why, the feet was, by far the most important part of the subject bad been
that there was a considerable domestic manufacture in scarcely noticed in the course of the discussion ; he referred
lade', and if we sent a considerable quantity of goods to the changes which it was proposed to make in India.
there, it could only be by displacing that menu- Ile agreed with his right ben. friend that India must be
lecture. It was not like Brazil, where there was governed in India, and that what was done in reference to
no domestic manufacture. Nevertheless, within the last 25 the home government was far less important than the fm-
years our imports to India had increased 112 per cent., prevenient in the administration in India itself. His hon.
which was a greater ratio of increase than that to anyother friend the member for the county of Elgin said they knew
country. Then the hon. member referred to a quarrel nothing at present of the government in India.
between a couple of zemindars while the policeman looked Mr. C. BRUCE explained that what he had 'said was
on. He was sorry that such things should take place; that they. ought not to legislate until they had obtained
but be had heard In this country of the inefficiency of the opinions of the Governor-General and the other
parish constables and of faction fights in Ireland, but he governors.
had never heard that either the one or the other Sir C. WOOD continued :—Well, the opinion
was a valid reason for making a total alteration in of Lord Dalhousie had been obtained, and it accorded with
the government of Queen, Lords, and Commons. that of the government, and ho did not know of what see
But what was this, supposing it to be true—was it not it could be to send out the bill and wait till it had been re-
an improvement of the state of things, when the whole turned. As to the remarks made respectiag the opinion of
country was overrun by the I'indarees, and when a ryot Sir Erskine Perry, and other eminent lawyers with regard
could not go out without his matchlock on his shoulder ? to the code, he woaldobserve that the transmission in India
Now, the universal remark was, that from one end of our was to slowest of the very persons referred to—(bear)—
dominions to the other the most perfect security to life and and it was in deference to their opinion the government
property existed, and that though there had been external had postponed till next session the introduction of a bill fur
wars, internal wars were entirely done away with with- improving the judicature and the course of legislation in
in the British dominions in India. An hon. mem- India. (Cries of "divide.") His hon. friend (Mr. C.
bee had given an account of the miserable state Bruce) objected to centralisation. He imagined that his
of the ryots in Bengal, which he quoted from honourable friend was not for reverting to the
the Calcutta Review. If they were to turn to the pages of old system of having different laws for different
a review in this country of no slight celebrity, the Quarterly parts of India; and if there was to be one system of laws
111weisso, or to Blackwood+ Magazine, they might find des- it could only be secured by having one legislative body for
' sirtione quite as harrowing of the miserable state of this the whole country. He would not enter into them quea-
siest'," owing to free trade. He strongly suspected that lions any further. (Cheers.) No objection haying been
r w could find in these peeches of the hon. and learned mem- urged against the bill which might not be fairly and pro
bur for Suffolk (Sir . Kelly), made not six months ago, petty discussed In committee, it did not appear to him that
• description of the misery of this country quite as strong any sound argument could be advanced against the second
as that which the hon. gentleman bad read of the state of reading. He thought if they were to deal with the qua-
the people of India. But, after all, this misery was under tioa as the noble lord proposed to do, they would be trifling
the kind system which the hen. gentleman so strongly re- with the welfare and even the security of their empire in
commended. (Mr. Seymour: No.] Why, the hon. gen- India. (Hear, hear.) That was certainly an empire of •
demise always condemned the zemindary system, but the most anomalous and extraordinary description. If well
hon. member tor Manchester confined his objections to the governed it was one of the strongest empires that could
ryotwarry system, and always spoke in favour of a landlord exist ; if ill governed no one could deny that its situation
system. The hon. member (Mr. Bright) refereed to some must be most critical. What were the measures adopted
evidence taken before the committee, but which had not by the government for promoting its good government)
been reported, of the miserable state of the inhabitants of So far as India itself was concerned, they had adopted the
Bengal. lie (Sir C. Wood) could only say that they had suggestions of the most experienced servants ; so far as the
had evidence, and that from • witness not very favourable changes at home were concerned, they had adopted the
to the company, but who in the strongest possible language suggestions which appeared to them most likely to secure
stated that it was impossible to speak in too strong terms the stability of the empire. Lord Ellenborough told them
of the favourable condition of the people of British that they held their authority in India through the supe-
India, contrasting it in every possible way with the riority of mind on the part of those who were sent out.
state of those who were still under native rule. By the proposed system of competition they endeavoured
But the hon. member far Sunderland !poke of the revenue to maintain that superiority. Mr. Mill said they main-
es being in a state all but bankrupt. Now, he should not Mined their authority in India by convincing the minds of
have thought it necessary to take any very great notice of the people that they were governed better now than they
that, were it not that a statement of that kind, if not con- had been by their own native princes, and the go,
tradicted, might alarm the people of India, or those per- vernment did not forget that declaration. That
sons who depended for their income on Indian debt, and there were defects he admitted ; but they were'
therefore he might be permitted to state what little founds- defects which they did their hest by this measure to
tion there was for the apprehensions in which the hon. gen- remedy ; and there was not, he believed, any defect that
tleman indulged. It was perfectly true that since the last could be amended by home legislation, for which a remedy
charter India had been engaged in very considerable and had not been provided in the bill. The questions of land
extensive wars, and no doubt a considerable addition had tenure, the improvement of public works, and others of a
been made to the debt. He would not go into any long similar description, were questions which must be dealt
details of figures as to that increase of the debt, but the with, not here, but in India, and for dealing with which
whole Indian debt at this moment was less than two in India the government had be this bill provided what
years' ue of India, sad that certainly, looking at appeared to them the best machinery that could be devised.
what we were used to in Europe, was no for (Cheers.)
midable amount. The amount of the increased debt Mr. 1/ISRAELI said the right hon. gentleman had com-
since 1813 was about half a million per annum, pinned of the imaginative powers of the member who
The increase of revenue from the same territories, making preceded him, but he had himself shown that in that re•
allowance for everything his hon. friend the member for open he could successfully compete with the hon.
Newcastle claimed, was upwards of two million per annum, member for Sunderland (Mr. I:ngby Seymour)
independent of the income of the new territories, which (laughter)—for in his reply he appeared to him
amounted to about a million and • hair more. The income (Mr. Disraeli) to have answered several speeches which
of ladia was on the whole an increasing income. An hon. had not previouly been delivered—(laughter)—and he
gentleman corrected him the other night when he stated had constantly occasioned several gentlemen on both sides
the income of India was 26 millions. The income of the of the house to interrupt him in the course of the address
last three years in round numbers was, in 1850-1, 27 which he had just terminated. It would be his (Mr. Die-
millions ; in 1851.2, 28 millions ; in 1852.3, 29 raeli's) lot, in the observations which he should presume to
millions. In 1889-60 there was a surplus. In 1850-1 make, to have to comment on some statements which had
there was also • surplus. In 1831-2 there was • deficiency, preceded his. He should endeavour, however, to make his
and in 18,52-3, paying the probable expense of the Burmese remarks in so fair a spirit as not to call for the interference
war, there was a surplus of upwards of half a million. He of any hon. gentleman before be had resumed his seat. In
could not say that with an income which had increased two considering the all-important subject before them,he should
million within the last three years, with a surplus in three endeavour to imitate the temper and spirit which cbarac-
out of four years, and where the whole debt was leas than tensed the statesmanlike speech with which the amendment
two years' income, he could not say that such a state of was introduced by the noble lord. (Cheers.) He agreed with
things was one that ought to create alarm. There was the First Lord of the Admiralty in remarking with satin-
another remarkable statement of our new acquisitions in faction many indications during the debate of a desire
&Inds. A very able officer had been appointed to the coin- on both sides of the house to come to the consideration of
mend of the irregular cavalry in that country, and they took the subject in a calm and unimpassioned spirit. But, at the
uo their quarters in a hamlet without any inhabitants, and same time, he must take the liberty of observing that he
the benefit of our protection and the energy of our officer in could not but feel that hon. gentlemen, in attempting to
laying out roads and in irrigation had been suck that at 'apron so laudable a disposition, had, he thought, been in-
the present moment there was a flourishing town with tea advertent'', betrayed into remarks which might lead to
thousand inhabitants. Such had been the mode in which very inconvenient, very disagreeable, and even very dea-
ths country bad improved under our rule. Many gerous misconceptions. They had been told frequently in
were the statements made to prove the inefficiency that debate, that this was not a party question, as if a party
of the present system of government, nevertheless question were necessarily an improper question. They had
he thought that the arguments of those who spoke been told that the subject ought not to be considered in a
in favour of the motion of the noble lord told in party spirit ; as if when • subject was considered in a party
favour of the second reading instead of against spirit it was necessarily considered in a partial and unjust
it. He did not think they had in the slightest spirit. Now, as they were all of them members of a house,
degree impugned the authority of Lord Dalhousie, which which was a house of party, and which, if it were not a
was not given in answer to a leading question of e, be- house of party, they might depend upon it would not he
cause he bad carefully abstained from asking it, lest he long tolerated by the country—(hear, hear,)—be thought
should be accused of putting it. But hon. gentlemen who this was a point upon which there should be clearer con-
supported the amendment had reverted, and he thought captions than at present appeared to prevail in that &mem-
justly, to the opinion of the editor of the Friend of India. bly. He considered that a party question was a ques-
Permit him to read a short extract from a letter from that tion which concerned the distinctive precipice of the
gentleman, who was in this country, and knew what the u- two great parties into which • popular assembly was
gement& were for delay. This was the deliberate opinion necessarily divided. (Hear, hear.) Aristocracy, or
which he gave on the subject : " I will venture to democracy—protection, or unrestricted competition—an
assert after witnessing the mode in which the Indian cam- endowed or established church, or complete dependence on
paten has opened, that nothing can be more disastrous for the voluntary principle—those were principles which were
India than the prolonging this agitation for two years, du- perfectly distinct; they were professed by different parties,
ring which the intelligent natives would be led, however they were party principles ; and if they were brought into
wrongfully, to imagine that their representations would be discussion, the debate would be on purely party questions.
welcome to their friends in England in exact proportion to But it was taking a very limited view of a party question to
their virulence. Two years of such agitation, by raising bound it merely by the description on which he had just
hopes width ',must be disappointed, will bring dis ventured. (Hear, hear.) Hitherto, when any great legir
respect to the British government, and might even five difficulty had been brought under the consideration of
end in striking at the tprineiple of loyal obedience." parliament there had been supposed to be a generous emu-
He (Sir C Wood) trusted that those who were not lation between the two parties as to which should solve the
prepared to imperil the safety of our Indian empire, would difficulty in the most satisfactory manner ; and when there
take that opinion of a personas competent to give an opinion had been a question of controverted policy, it bad bola
as any one, and that they would not suffer themselves to be thought that the competition was as ter which should MM.
led away by delay, from which no possible good could mend the WWII that would conduce mat to the haulms
come. He might close the observations he had to address to of the couatry and the welfare of the people. (Hear,
the house by the argument against delay, but after ;the hear.) Sharing in that view, he confessed he could not un-
speech of the noble lord, he would refer to the ann. derstand how a great party in that house could take refuge
meats against the measure, because, after all, in a sullen neutrality on a subject like that before the
the great question they were discussing was the se- house, and shrink from expressing, without the slightest
toad reading of the bill. The contradictions in hesitation, the views which they entertained. If they am
the arguments against the measure itself were as proved the proposition of the ministry, they were
great as those used on the subject of delay. The first oh- bound, in his opinion, to give it their cordial
jection which the noble lord stated was, that there was no and complete support ; if, on the other hand,
fixed term, and that the measure of the government was they believed it to be a proposition of a very goes-
purely experimental; another hen. mother said it was tionahle character, and further, if they believed that
provisional ; and the hon. member for Montrose said it was it might lead to disastrous results, he denied that it was
more permanent even than a lease for 20 years. They (the in their power to refrain from expressing their opinion.
ministers) proposed to put the government of India on pre- (Cheers.) He said they owed it to those who had sent
eisely ,the same footing as the government of this them there—(hear, bear)—they owed it to the country—
country. Was' the government of this country provi- (hear, hear)—they owed it even to themselves, fairly to
renal ? When they were putting the government of India Plan before parliament and the country the reasons why
on the same footing as the government of this country, and they dissented from the course recommended by the go-
as the government of all our colonies, except India, he vernment, and to give to parliament and the country an
could not conceiee that they were putting it on an unsound opportunity of expressing an opinion as to the two pelicans
or unstable footing. The hon. member for Mootrose eer- which were placed before them. He knew he should be told
tainly used the strangest argument—the exploded doctrine that party government led to great excesses. It was his
of finality; he said it was a measure which might be altered opinion that the excesses of party were not greater than,
as time and circumstances required. Such an argument perhaps they were not so great as, the excesses experienced
from such a determined friend to reform he never heard, under despotic governments—(hear, hear)—but, for his
But what said the noble lord, what did he say own part, he preferred the excesses of party government to
that he required, and that the house ought to require ? those of despotic government ; and he believed that the
Why, that a measure should be proposed which more enlightened this country became, the greater and
after having been well weighed, and whether the condition more powerful would be the cheek to piety excesses in the
of India be good or bad, should have a fair trial. Why, common sense of that house, and in the influence
that was exactly what they promoted to do. They said they of that omnipotent opinion, the power of which
had considered this measure, that it was in their opinion they all acknowledged. (Hear, hear.) Well, entertaining
the best measure fur the government of India, that they as he did these views, it was absolutely necessary that he
believed it to be good, that if it were good it ought to be should frankly express his opinions on the subject before
permanent, but it' it turned out not to be good, that it the house. Ile had made these observations because he had
might bz altered as circumstances might require, and were the misfortune of differing from many genntlemen whom
they to be told that that was anobjection, and that they were he greatly respected, and with many of whom he was in
to adopt the doctrine of finality ? The natives of political connexion. For his own part, he could not incur
India had coma to a wiser conclusion than the hon. gen- the responsibility of giving his assent to the measure of the
limas, fee he found a second petition had come from the government. The consequences of that measure would,
Disobey Native Association, in which they said they had sooner or later, be before them. Even if the government,
now iWlipted the opinion so well expressed by Lord which was now being planned, should last for that space of
Broughton, and their petition was, that they should pass 20 years which had so often been adverted to, there were
an act for the government of India without limiting its many present, who would probably be present
duration to any number of years, an act which, like other when that riod was terminated. Probably he
statutes, might, it deemed requisite, be altered, modified, (Mr. Disraeli would not, though it was possible
or repealed as occasion might require ; and they respect- that he would be there ; but—(lsughter)—there were many
fully said that it could not be necewry to embrace all the young men on that side of the house, devoting their time
subjects involved in the consideration of India in one act. and their talents to the service of their country, who at that
Now ministers were taking precisely that course. They period would probably still be taking an active part in
were proposing a bill for the government of India which Public transactions ; and be should be very sorry if, when
did not embrace everything in one act—a bill which, if the time came, they should, on referring to the debates of
good, might be permanent, sod which, if not good, might 1853, have occasion to regret that they were so wanting in
be altered when time and circumstances showed that it re- sagacity or in moral courage that, because party
quire l alteration. Redid not think that he need make any inconvenience might arise, they shrunk from expressing I
observations on the subject of patronage. The noble lord their opinions on one of the most important subjects that
said he concurred in the principle of competition, and he could engage the attention of parliament. (Cheers.)
suggested some alteration in the mode ; all be (Sir C.Wood) Now, there had been some controversy in that debate as to
could say was that there was nothing in the bill the exact subject which was under dimension. The Secre-
te preve,,t their considering the details in committee. The tary of the Board of Control (Mr. Lowe) had accused his
last que eon on which the noble lord stated his opinion noble friend (Lord Stanley) of introducing a second subject
was that ,: the home government. The noble 'lord him- into the debate. It appeared to him that that criticism
self was in favour of what was called jibe double govern- was not well founded. (Hear, hear.) There could be no
meat; in fact there was hardly any one who was in favour miste:ee whatever as to the question before them. That 1
of a single government. His hon friend the member for question As accurately, completely, and precisely
the West Riding quoted Mr. Halliday's opinion, but he repressed in the title of the bill which was
did not quote all that Mr. Halliday said, because Mr. on the table of the ileum. What was that title?
II illiday Oistioctly said he bad a high opinion of the " A bill to provide for the government of India." An
mode in which the government of India was adrainisteree.„ amendment had been moved which in fact said this—that
In the enureof the discussion the government had Mon the ministerial plan of providing for the government of
taunted with the observation—"lf you maintain that Geary- India, while it disturbed much, really settled nothing—
thing is good, why do you propose to change anyt`eing : (cheers)—and that that being the case, considering the late
I
He (Sir C. Wood) admitted that many things were ill done, period of the session, and considering that • parliamentary
and mar, things omitted ; but at the tame tittle he vindi committee bad fur two years been sitting to investigate the

condition of India, and up to that moment bad not half
fulfilled its office, they s►oald wait fur increased iaforma-
bon, virtually continue the existing act for the government
of India, and hesitate before passing a permanent measure
which was not adequate to meet the necessities of the case.
That was the question before the house. ((fear, Ilene.)
I A plan was proposed by her Majesty's ministers. They
(the opposition) could show that it was not an adequate
and sufficient plan—(hear, hear)—that in consequence of
the ►ateness of the session, and the imperfect state of the
• investigation which the house itself had authorised the go-
vernment should pause in its progress. And this was a
proposition which bad been described as something strange
and unreaslnable ; as being dangerous to En;land, perilous
to India; as a weapon borrowed from the enemy; an arrow
from the quiver of Indian reformers; as a course
unheard of, not to be tolerated, and rife with
consequences much to be deprecated. Now, in the first place,
was it an unprecedented course ? What his noble friend
(Lord Stanley) wished was this. There had been some talk
of a term of two years be allotted to a continuance bill, and
some hoh, gentlemen had argued as if two years were to
elapse before they began to legislate for India. On the
contrary, what his noble friend anticipated was, that her
Majesty's ministers, in full possession of the fruits of the
parliamentary investigation, should Like advantage
of the autumnal recess in order to mature a bill—

that considerable indignation was excited against her
Majesty's ministers But, on cAseidering the clause, he
(Mr. Disraeli) acquitted her Majesty's ministers of being
its authors, and believed that the original of the clime
would be found in Leadenhall.street, where there was
very valuable body of papers relating to a quefti, with
regard to which the Indian government had greatly dis.
tinguished themselves, and that was the putting doon or
Thuggee. (Laughter.) Now, it was known that the Thug
was usually a person of very gentlemanly vnd even of fn.
cinat.ng manners, who was on the moat intimate terms with
you; he dined with you, he drank with you, he smO.ed
with you, he shared in your pastimes and pur:mits, and
whatever you wished to be. done he was always rosy to (h.
Ile was the companion of your life, and possibly member
of the some direction (laughter) ; but always
at the moment of the utmost confidence, when be was re.

posing oat your hoscm, the mission of the *.thug was fut.
tilled, and you ceased to exist. (Laughter and cheers.)
Nuw, he confessed, he was anxious—he was curious to sea
which wera the fifteen Thugs. (Great laughter and cheers.)
He wanted to know whu were the innocent victims?

(Laughter.) Sometimes he Pared it might be the vener-
able member fur the City of London (Mr. Masterman).
(A laugh) He would not, however, pursue this hypothetical
anticipation ; but when they met next session, he feared
that there would be a thrill of horror when certain gsntle-
men, who had been members of the Court of Directors,
first entered the house. (A laugh.) But, what had been
gained by this process ? You would have fifteen members
of the old court ; the crown, in the first instance,
was to add three, and ultimately six members;
of the eighteen of whomi the court was to consist twelve
w0,.1d be old members and six would be government nomi-
. .

(cheers)—which probably both houses of parliament
would approve; that they should introduce it
to the notice of the house when parliament
met in February; it would probably pass in a month,
and receive the royal assent before the existing act wuula
expire. (Cheers.) That was what the opposition pro.
posed, what they wished, and that was considered an
unprecedented proposition. In reply to this alleged charge
he referred to the cue of 1813, and the conduct of Lords

nees. It was said that the object of appointine of the
- -

government nominees was to secure a certainty of superior
knowledge of India and its necessities. Did you gain that
object ? He had looked over the list of the presect East
India Directors. lie took the twenty-four names, and he

Grey and Grenville, when ministers were "as ministers
generally are—nun isely obstinate," and to that of 1833,
and the recommendatioes of Mr. Charles Wynne; and he
urged that Lord Stanley was merely advising the course
recommended on both those occasions when India Bills were
in question. Twenty years had passed. What did we find
now 1 There were still great complaints. Were there not con-
stant wars—(cheers)—constant deficits—(cheers)—no edu-
cation—(cheers)—few public works, and a maladminis-
tration of justice. (Great cheering.) When then they
found that in 1853 the same complaints were made as in
1833, did it not become parliament to pause and act with
great consideration in this matter? And the evidence
taken before the committees both of the Lords and Commons
bore out these complaints. The most experienced servants
of the company would not come forward and state that there
were not continual wars ; that the natives of India were
wealthy and thriving ; that the condition of the country
was changed; that means of communication existed ; that
the native population was educated ; and that the adminis-
tration of justice was satisfactory. What they did say, how-
ever, let in a flood of information upon the subject ; and it
was not putting a prejudiced or extravagant opinion upon
it to say that the complaints which existed in 1833 might
be fairly echoed in 1853. Under these circumstances, was
it possible that the house could proceed to provide a govern-
ment for India as if it were legisleling for a railroad ?
Were they to be told that this was a question in which dis-
cussion was not to be indulged,?—were ministers to be
allowed to triumph in the idea that parliament and the
pesple of this country took no interest in this question ?j If
that were true, he would warn the house that the time
could not be far distant when they would lose that India of
which they were so careless. If he were a minister, and it
was impressed upon his conviction that the house was not
interested in the discussion upon India, he would not ven-
ture to triumph in the fact, nor continually to remind the
country and Europe that it was so. It only proved
that year by year the house was becoming more and more a
meeting of delegates, less competent to fulfil the part of
imperial legislators, which was formerly its pride. (" Hear"
and " oh.") It was now the duty of parliament to endea-
vour to discover what was the cause of the misgovernment
of India. He did not presume to fix that misgovernment
wholly upon the constitution of the present Indian govern-
ment ; but generally speaking, if a country be misgoverned,
there was a prima facie proof that its constitution was de-
fective. Chronic misgovernment could not exist, unless the
general scheme of administration had in it some-
thing essentially defective. When he considered the form
of the Indian government, he found it cumbrous,
divided and deficient in that clear and complete responsi-
bility which was essentially the source of all efficient go-
vernment. That was a charge which he did not make
without reluctance, nor indeed had he stated a word which
he did not think the justice of the ease strictly would defend.
Her Majesty's ministers had continually reminded the house
that but a few members could be got together to listen to
the debates upon the question ; he had, however, observed
that all the speakers were gentlemen who had local expe-
rience in, or were connected with, the affairs of India. (Cries
of dissent from the ministerial benches.) He (Mr. Disraeli)
was quite ready to be corrected, but he certainly thought.
that with the exception of himself and the First
Lord of the Admiralty, all the honourable members
who had spoken in this debate were either connected
with India, or had local experience in Indian affairs.
At least he was not going to quote any gentleman who did
not beloni to that category. One gentleman, a director,
said that it was a great mistake to suppose that the Court
of Directors did not exercise a lona fide authority. That
was the fact. The second gentleman, a man of equal au-
thority, said there was no use talking about the India Com-
pany, whose authority—using a phrase which had now be-
come classical in the House of Commons—was all a sham,
and that the real power lay in the hands of the President
of the Board of Control. What happened next ? A
right honourable gentleman, • man of the very
highest authority, who had been Secretary to the
Board of Control, and subsequently a member of
council in India, rose and said it was wasting breath
and time to talk of either the Board of Control of the
Court of Directors, because the Governor• General was
alone the government of India (Cheers.) Now this was
a subject of very great interest, and it was remarkable that
the highest authorities should in so remarkable a manner
contradict themselves. (Hear, bear.) He mentioned
these things to show how difficult it was to 8: the point at
which lay the government of India, but he had still to
come to the most important point. He bad ob-
served that • very short time ago, when many
gentlemen whom he was then addressing were
members of that house, and even if not members the matter
mast be still fresh in their memories, and the state of India
was most perilous, when the British arms had incurred the
greatest disaster of recent times, that this country was
governed by a strong ministry, consisting of some of the
ablest men in this country. These men were summoned to
the council board to consider what steps should be taken to
rescue India from her peril, and these two men,
the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel, se-
lected as Governor-General of India, and at
the greatest personal sacrifice, one of their colleagues
of great talents and eloquence in the other house of parlia-
ment. They sent him to the scene of imperial danger, and
his mode of administering the affairs of India gave entire
satisfaction. That nobleman succeeded in everything he
undertook, but this he (Mr. Disraeli) also knew, that in
the very heart of his enterprise he was abruptly recalled
from his government, and by whom ? By his sovereign ?
By her Majesty's ministers ? By the President of
the Board of Control? Net at all, but by the Court
of Directors. (Loud cheers.) This was a startling
fact. Lord Ellenborough, the selected minister of
her Majesty's government, was recalled by the
Directors with every circumstance of shame, and
the next day his sovereign elevated him in the
peerage, and elevated him with a red ribbon ,
(Cheers.) He wanted to know then who were the real.
governors of India, and where was the responsibility.
(Hear, hear.) But the directors would have the same
power still He had read the bill, and in as far as he could
draw any conclusion from it, the directors could, if it be-
came law, renal • governor-general to-morrow, and there-
fore to tell him that they did not govern the country was
absurd. (Hear, hear.) Here was • case in which
they had changed the policy of Sir Robert Peel
and the Duke of Wellington, for who did not
know that to renal a governor-general was generally
to alter a whole system of policy. Well, he thought he had
shown that the government of India was not that simple
instrument of polity it had Deco alleged to be during the
present debate. (Hear, hear.) They had been told that
the Board of Control was the government of India; he had
shown a memorable instance of recent experience in which
they had defied the Court of Directors. (Hear, hear.) He
was not making this a charge against the directors—if they
had the power they were right to exercise it; but when he
was told they had no power, and had shown them to have
exercised the greatest act of power, and when in
the bill that power was still reserved to them,
he thought it an important element in the consideration of
the mode in which the future government of India was to
be formed. (Hear, hear.) Remember it was not •
question confidently thrust forward during the debate,
whither the present form, or some great change was to be
adopted, but sooner or later they must face that great
manic change which they were now taught to consider so
f4volows. You might terminate the power of the directors
*morrow, but whether you did so or not, at a stated period
thg Court of Proprietors must cease to exist ; and of course
Age arepresentatives would be banished from the scene.
Sooner or later, therefore, organic change must be met; but
the q stion was, whether the present was the proper time
for meting it, or whether by proposing it they did not
place themselves in a worse position than before ? Remem-
bering the hour of the night—(hear)—he would compress
his observations as much as possible, avoiding all interference
with those parts of the bill that referred to the local govern-
ment of India, although there were many clauses to which
he must object should the bill ever reach the committee.
But these had nothing to do with the second reading, and
therefore he should concentrate his criticism upon the
system proposed for the home government of India. lie
found such objections in that plan as justified him in re-
sistance, because it continued the disadvantages of the exist
ing system without preserving any of its advantages. Ile
must, in the first place, call the attention of the house to
the new constitution of the board of directors. The first
objection he made to the scheme was, the introduction of
government nominees, which would have the effect
of at once making the board dependent. It was
unnecessary for him (Mr. Disraeli) to remind the house of
the peculiar arrangement by which the number of direr ors
was to be reduced. lie adverted to it with reluctance be-
cause he saw so many members of that body present, but he
trusted that the freedom of discussion would warrant him in
making the allusion. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Hon.
gentlemen would remember that it was proposed that the
directors, thirty in number, to meet and select, on the
15th of April next, out of their own number, they being
themselves the selectors, fifteen, who were thereafter to
he members of the Court of Directors of the East India
Company. At first there was an idea entertained
abroad that the President of the Board of Control
had dealt rather hardly and cruelly with the directors
and this device of his thought so ruthless and remorseless

observed that the majoity of them were men of local and
official experience in Indian affairs. More than halt of
them were either eminent as lawyers, like the hon. member
for Ifoniton, or had had great experience in
the military or civil service of the country;
so that at the present moment with that ex-
tremely criticised court of directors you had a mass
of Indian knowledge and experience represented by about
half the members of the court. But even lithe arrangement
of her Majesty's ministers was complete, you would only
retain one-third who would be men who ',mussed know-
ledge of that kind. For it was obvious that when the
change now projected took place, none of the members who
were to be elected would be chosen with a regard to their
Indian experience. You would always have them elected
from Lombard-street, and from the directors of assurance
societies; sad when a City director was wanted you
would go upon 'Change for him. lie said that
the two great elements of an Indian council, whatever
might be its form, whether it was called a court of directors
or a council for the government of India, were its indepen-
dence and its permanence. (Hear.) Much of its useful-
ness must depend on its knowledg.• of India, and
that was only to be obtained by its permanence. For
that reason, and for no other, if he was to have to choose
between the existing system and tho arrangement of the
government, he should choose the existing system.
Remarking that no member had risen te defend the bill
except gentlemen in office (and Mr. Mara ilay,whe defended
his clients), and many who would not support the amend-
ment hod taken care to say they utterly disapproved of the
bill, he addressed himself to answer such advocacy as had
been offered. Mr. Macaulay's he described as one of the
most agreeable of speeches and the weakest of
defences, and Sir J. Graham's as a more un-
qualified panegyric on the East India Company
than any pamphleteer bad ventured on, and in its
conclusion as the culmination of inconsistency. " The
home government is perfect," sai 1 the right hon. baronet,
"therefore I propose to vote against it." (Hear, hear.)
" The army of India is perfect under the company—think of
Pollock and Nott—therefore I propose to introduce what
shall make it subordinate to the military authorities
of the government. (Cheers and a laugh.) The
right hon. baronet next said, " I acknowledge that the
state of Indian finance is not satisfactory—l cannot deny
the' there is a great debt (though not so great as has been
represented by :the Indian reformers)"—the right hon.
baronet should have some pity on the raw statistics of these
young and inexperienced men—(" hear," and laughter)—
" I know the deficiency is great, though not so great as has
been Said ; that there has been an annual deficit (but, I be-
lieve, in one year there was a surplus)—but we are now
going to settle all that—we are to have an Indian budget
—you will have a financial statement for India every
year, and you will have the advantage in the next year
of haying that statement presented to you by one who
has been a Chancellor of the Exchequer as well as a Pre-
sident of the Board of Control." (Hear, hear.) This was
the plan of the right hon. gentleman. But, observe on
what small grcunds his happiness was based. Indian
finance was not satisfactory, and was to Ise brcught
under the control of parliament. They were to have the
statement of the ways and means annually, though they
were not to have the control of a single shilling. (Hear,
hear.) They were to have a budget; and that was all.
They could receive nothing, and they were not to have the
control of a shilling of the expenditure. He would
say nothing about taxation, further than he
thought there would be a considerable tax upon
the members of that house on the night when
the India budget was to be debated. (Oh, oh.) He was
anxious to condense his observations into the smallest pos-
sible compact, but he was anxious before he sat down to
touch upon the arguments which bad been urged against
delay, for they were, for many reasons, of the utmost im-
portance. First, they had the arguments on the ground of
authority. Now he had said before that arguments drawn
from authority was an argument efficacious but to
a limited extent. Tley (the opposition) recog-
nised authority—they were duly influenced by it,
but they could not be influenced by it against the
strong conviction of their reason. The first authority
brought forward is support of delay was that of the present
Governor General of India. He yielded to an authority
which was like one of the Homeric contests, clothed in a
cloud, he could not struggle against an authority when he
was not aware of the language in which it was couched, or
at this moment, what it recommended. (Hear.) It would
be held unparliamentary for a minister to appeal in debate
to a state paper not midst the cognisance of the parlia-
ment, he did not wish to urge that objection, but be
must protest against the authority of Lord Dal-
housie when not a single member present, except
those who had the despatches in the red box, knew
what that noble lord had said or the data upon which ho
expressed his opinion. (Hear, hear.) Then there was the
authority of Lord Ellenborough. True, Lord Ellenborough
recently said he was in favour of immediate legislation ; but
when he femembered that three months ago that noble lord
was against immediate legislation, and that he had given no
reason for his change of opinion, he could not, under the
circumstances, very much appreciate his authority. (Hese,
hear.) He wanted to know upon what reasons the noble
lord had changed his opinion, for those reasons might be
such as in his mind were not of sufficient force to
justify the change in the noble lord's views, he might be
proceeding on assumptions which he (Mr. Disraeli) thought
wholly inadequate. Therefore, in his mind, the opinions of
Lord Dalhousie and Lord Ellenborough on this point were
mere shadows. Then they had the authority of a third
governor-general, Lord Hardinge. But in his evidence
before the committee that noble lord glare no such opinion.
If he had given an opinion in favour of immediate legis-
lation for India in his evidence, it would have been open
for any member of the committee to bare asked the grounds
of that opinion. But that was not the case, and they were told
that in conversation, the noble lord had so expressed
himself, but he had not so expressed himself before the
committee ; and if they wanted his opinion to influence
them, the government ought to summon Lord Hardinge to
give evidence at the bar of the house. They bad one or
two other authorities quoted to the same effect. The first
of them was the authority of his hon. friend the member for
Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring). He acknowleged his hon.
friend was a great authority oa this question. He was the
chairman of the committee, and as such had exhibited there
talents and that ability which those who were intimate with
him had been prepared to expect. But his hon. friend, if
he did not misunderstand him, was a supporter of the eyes
tem of home government in India as it at present existed,
and, therefore, the view he took would he that the sooner
they had legislation the better, because as soon as the mea-
sure passed they would be establishing something like it, if
not exactly the same system which at present prevailed.
But he (Mr. Disraeli) did not wish to see the present sys-
tem of home government continue, nor was that exactly
the wish of her Majesty's ministers. (Hear.) Then they have
another authority—that of his right hon. friend the mem-
ber for Stamford (Mr. Mercies). His right hon. friend bad
stated, as far as he had been able to collect bin statement,
that he approved of immediate legislation; and that it was
his intention to have proposed immediate legislation had he
remained President of the Board of Control. That obser-
vation had been made much of by hon. gentlemen opposite,
and they had taken every opportunity of stating in
their speeches that it was the intention et the
late government to legislate for India immedi-
ately. He knew his right hon. friend would never
make a statement which he did not feel to he correct, or
say anything that he did not firmly believe to have oc-
curred, but he (Mr. Disraeli) was bound to saw, with the
utmestcourtesy to his right hon. friend, that if he beard his
declaration aright, and if it were that the late government
intended to propose immediate legislation for India, that
he himself heard that declaration in the house for
the first time. (Hear, hear.) And he was not [the
only member of the late government who heard it for
the first time, for he was confirmed without almost any
exception by the whole of his late colleagues, and be had
the authority of that one, without whose sanction no such
legislation could have been proposed by the late govern-
ment—his noble friend, who was prime minister in the late
administration, for saying that he never heard of such an
intention, and that he was equally surprised with himself
to learn that the statement had been made in that house,
that the late government intended to propose to legislate
immediately for India. (Hear.) He did not dispute the
high authority of his right hon. friend (Mr.
Mercies), nor would he seek to depreciate it, and he gave
all the advantage of it to her Mejestv's ministers.
but he thought it important that there should be no misre-
presentation on the !object. (Hear, hear) But then the
same observation applied to the opinion at his right hoe.
friend, as to his hon. friend the member for Huntingdon,
that was, he was in favour of the home government of
India without change. (Hear.) He had now answered the
arguments against delay that were drawn from authority.
He must now touch upon two other reasons which
were urged for delay by the right tem. baronet, the First
Lora of the Admiralty. The right lion. gentleman urged
that the present state of India would not permit any delay
in legislating for its future government, but with great
respect for the right hon. gentleman, he must beg leave to

II

1b biteup~m that point. There might be good
as , jogai?, the lawsuit", or there might not,
de l- .1 teat sic goo reason could be found for pip-
es% et -- in 'fie present state of India.
tte h... 0 The right honourable gentleman szke
it wry. a goal country in whic an
I°4 t't would occur the momentthe second edition of
leow,e,"l', weight word that this bill had been thrown
lrbie;trikt the heine just remember that in size India was
•"" a third of haropc, while it wee inhabited by 28
wroth "I
t , rie •in e fettering iu religion, and differing
ee , •
Mu" u• • Where, thou, were the elements of combine
• ; these eireum-truces? Why, not more than four
tee. 5-
aeM a ronhin was attempted in Germany,
e unify, certainly, but not to be compares
• • extent with India. There they had •
is s." byseven or eight millions of the same
11121.,17- one Tripper, and the same language, enjoying
re~6 is efs,es which modern science could preduce for
',..*W-unicetions between men, and assisting the
:ecece—poseeseieg besides an almost uni-
rid yet with all its aids to coucert cad cum-
• ...wean found some four or live years ago that it
• fmeossible fur Aultrians, Psussiana, Savarese',
to combine in any manner whitener
, it lostfl.llia •
• ) Than the inhabitants of the country were
(iv ce the same religion, and ileums
7.,language
yp. IA •
iiit.oe together for • politic prpose, and t
Aillc-.'verement were afraid that if they delayed the row
rint „t eats bdl, as insurrection would take place in a cons-
oe
h has than Europe, and containing 28 nations.
laa
10 toe. sainh
d te right Lon. gentleman, look at the state of
hot,lieu ut merely the state of India, butOhe teepee.
@Weided sod peculiar state of Asia, which should induce
to glen at wee with the measure, said the right hoe.
geatl man • but for his part, tie denied that the present state
fhce caliar ur unprecedented. The eight
64 " el. Pethe
h man adverted to condition of Asia, the con-
• t.en of China, and soul they were peculiar and untie'-
,'4,: Wfar as so the coalition had brought things to
Ihillagg Turkey at least as concern the right
▪ od.so rman ebouhl Lave remembered the rule
.of law
her awe has • right to t eke advantage of Ire own
wogt but it was no argument for the misgovern-
so, belie to say many of the Khans of
ton were making war upon each other, while
Calaz we; being ravaged by • successful insurrec-
gice„ es Lir, however, from the stage of these coun-
ske e„,,,a writhe" and unprecedeueed, he might mei.- '
gm that in 1633 all the circumstances which the right hon. '
e,egt sea fad referred to existed to • far greater extent
au they do now, and yet in that year they were not
bneeeht toward NO an argument in favour of precipitate
,p,m. Asia was continually in a state of ferment;
bee wine was the condition of the Turkish empire in 1833,
which thoi were now told was most perilous ? (Hear,
wit) Why. the Naha of Egypt was invading
she Turkish empire while the right hon. gentleman
hhe member for Edi•Wirgh WU "[diverge,/ his slot.
radieteich' on the date of India. The Pasha had
erred en • esmiunfal battle in Asia Minor which
WI mak ME eargleee master of the Turkish frontier,
ebtltbe Rued= feet bad entered the Bosphorus at least
ea weeks Mime the bill of 1933 was introduced by the then
hevenneent. Nobody thought then that the state of the
Tarkish empire was a reason why they should legislate
basely fa India. No one thought then that the stable(
why or
Hie the
par quarrelliament s of
of Tartar
England s Khasi wu a
read,
should pressed
hurriedly in providing a government for India. Why wen
we not at that time at the commencement of those myste-
rious coa.binations in Central Asia which afterwards led to
the tension of Afghanistan as the only means by which
we veld weenies the perils which threatened our Indies
empire, and yet that circumstance was not pressed ogee
parliament as a reason for passing • measure fee
the government of India. True China was not
is a mate of insurrection in 1833, but already those
misanderstandines bad commenced which made every man
who knew the state of China, certain that a war only could
terminate the differences. And shortly afterwards the Wet
did commence, and it was perhaps one of the most extra-
vagant wars that we had ever carried on in the East ; but
still the state of China was not cited as a reason for passing
the belie 1833. He said, then, that taking the state of
Asia, the state of Turkey, the state of Central Asia, and
the state of China at this moment, they wen as
compared with 1833, far less peculiar and far less
important ; but still no man ever thought in 1833
of cornier forward to support an imperfect and • impo-
litic measure for the government of India, on the
glued that neighbouring countries were is • dia.
terbed state. (Hear, hear.) Well, he had only one more
eteeriation to make upon this matter, and he felt deeply
reefed to the house for having listened to him oolong with
so math patience. But there was one other reason given—
s fourth reason, why they should not sanction
delay. It was because nest year they were to
have a %ewers of parliamentary reform. lie knew
Ifni that ministers were bound, not merely as
Kitten:es. hut as men of honour, not only to bring ia •
measure of parliamentary reform next year, but also •
lane pleasure of parliamentary reform. Ile knew that a
right hon. gentleman opposite, with a candour that well
became him, informed the country that the only condition
so which he could be induced to lend his services to the
sate was, that the Prime Minister should
ittroduee such a measure as early as pos-
sible ; but certainly not later than the com-
mencement of the next session, and it was now said that
unsure ought nor to be delayed on amount of this pledge.
Let him, however, remind the house that the subject of
parliamentary reform was not of so complicated • character
se it was in 1830, and if they were to have a large mea-
lier* of parliamentary reform next year, he had no idea
that its descussion would take up the whole: of the session. The
government might introduce a well matured project for the
government of India in February, paw it through this
bust, and yet be able to bring in their large measure of
parliamentary reform before Easter ; but be hoped the
home would remember the circumstances under which this
argumeet against delay was made. It was two years age
lace the noble lord the member for the City of Leedom,
who was then first minister, announced that since the been,
had prthouneed in favour of parliamentary reform, he was
quite willing to act upon it ; and a measure would be pre-
pared accordingly. Let it not be said now, then, that for the
rake of the personal and political convenience of the minister
a wanes of reform necessary for England ought to be pat
eft for two yearn, and not the slightest delay permitbd as
regards a measure for providing • good governmast
for 150,000,000 of people. If they were to
be tied that India was to continue to be
misgoverned, or that India was not to have the chance of •
better government because parliamentary reform was nem-
ray fur England, he thought it would be most unsaddles.
tort'. The mama for delay were legitimate, were powerful,
were respectable, in comparison with this latter argument
ler delay, sad be could not believe that the House of Com-
mons would misetion it. (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard
the amendment, it was not brought forward in
ecepliaace with an new-tangled ideas, but it was
height. forward in -deference to the highest precedents
sapped by the (conduct of the most eminent men. If it''
was carried it did not follow that it would throw any eb.
rude in the way of providing a government for India bailee
the existing act terminates, although fee earritialesha
would be advisable that • con OW
two ran should hs pared. He dust
kW,
what weal 10 the fate of the SWOMIWIMII
hat in ping Isle the lobby with hi Wide bird, be
shear be asppered with the switerertar that be wee
his dry to Ma seamituata,se be road be thus sew
their names with a cowrie st gdir midge be
weld be bemenrabla to themaed ad WNW
h the eamtry. (Obtain.)
Lord J. RUMILL uses lorry in ft ailloisted state
et the louse that be shard have to trepan upon them
fee a few strreagssa hem they want I. • division ;
hot he remised thus rat be would not make any re-
brace to the wards% of parliamentary reform. (Cheer.)
The right boa. baronet (Sir J. Graham) had said that
this question divided itself into two branches—the one the
question of delay, and the other that of double govern-
aim! That was, in fact, the question upon which the
house would bays to decade; but he (Lord J. Russell)
meld not avoid remarking upon the lesson which the right
hen. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) armed to give to his party
it the ernmesommest of his address. With the general
observations be made upon party he (the noble lord) would
be the last to disagree. lie could conceive nothing dis-
honourable—on the contrary It was highly creditable—that
when two partite had committed themselves to different
Wes of policy, each conselentioualy believing that their
own was moat for the public advantage, they should
straggle for the ascendancy. (Cheers.) But the right
bon. gentleman's ;amities had this difficulty, namely, that
etch pasty ought to have some settled purpose in
favour of which they asked their friends In the
house and out of it to aid and assist them. (Cheers.)
Now, on this particular cecasion, the noble lord (Lord
Stanley) and the right hoe. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) were
both entirely wanting in setting forth any policy that they
aidrecommend. (Loud cheers.) They only told the
Lome to delay legislation, and to continue the present go-
vernment of India in the hands in which it bad hitherto
been pl ,ced by parliament. The right hon. gentleman had
endeavoured—end • painful endeavour it must have been
—to diminish the authority of a right hon. gentleman of
Pat experience, whom the Earl of Derby had intrusted
with the administration of India—the late President of the
Board of ControL (Cheers.) There was one au-
tlerity whom the right honourable gentleman had
endeavoured uneucceset ully, he thought, to im-
page. Another was also one that he would ban
thought the late government would have been the hest
disposed to impeach, the hon. member for Huntingdon
(Mr. 1. Baring), vola unwearied attention as claimers
ef the India committee, and whose knowledge and ex-
penenee the right hon. gentleman would be the last tar
Is dispute. (Hear, hear.) The right be&
having, in fact, no clear view of policy to int=
Party, the more intelligent of that party had Mr mght lbws
seceleary to act for themselves, and they had therefore Ws.
beefed such opinions as they had heard in the swarm of the
debateopinions which,wbile not concurringepeatneydetall
of the bin, were agreed upon this, namely this they ought to
proceed at once to legislate for India, and that that
elialation should be founded upon the main principles and
!pan the Are clause of the government measure. (Cheers.)
Ike noble lerd's motion was professedly to the effect that
the house required more information before it could
Preyed to permanent legislation far the government
Si India. But was that the real meaning of the
msotioa? By no wane. (Cheers.) Hardly • member
the house who had spoken upon the queries
had [rally and sincerely taken up that view of the acsaii
for thin, was hardly one that bad not stated clear MI
dented opinions as to the future course which parliament
might to take. (Hear, hear.) The motion was therefore
entirely fallacious in its terms, and did not mean what it
protegee!. (Cheers.) But they had had an explanation

from • new Idly and supporter of the noble lord—the
Brtigiihist).inoTiiohne
member
rr
tfoelrd tilmanchholitSeer th(aMtr. if
succeeded it was intended to introduce a bill
to continue the government as it was for two year', and he
ventured to affirm, that if those two years were allowed, he
would engage that no government founded upon the East
India Company should be adopted by the
hoax. (hear,'
beer.) He (Lord J. Russell) did not find fault with that
declaration ; for he thought that after two years' agitation
—alter it had been represented throughout India
that the present government was to be destroyed,
end that something more agreeable to the
of that country—some representative body including
the different emotes—something, perhaps, wild and impracti-
cable—was to be put in its place. If, too, every one that
had been a successful lawyer, or who had been disappointed
in his application for office was to lend his aid in keeping
up this Indian agitation, he (Lord .1. Russell) could well
allow that the enactment by parliament of such • govern-
ment would be probable. (Hear.) But was that all ? Would
nothing else be shaken ? (Cheer'.) Would that not be the
case with the empire itself? (neer, hear.) When they
had shaken all existing authority, how could they be sure
that the Biitish rule itself could be maintained in India ?
(Loud chain.) The right hon. gentleman said that if this
bill were defeated, the news would not create an insurrec-
tion against the power of the Govirnor-General and the
army which he commanded. No. Authority would be
gradua'ly undermined—opinions would be gradually
perverteo. (Cheers.) Let the noble lord bowers
that in shaking down the promised fruit, be
might also shake down some of the branches,
and loosen the roots of the tree itself. (Loud cheers,)
The hon. member (Mr. Bright), the professed architect of
of ruin, intended to overthrow the company—would he be
able to stop there ? (Hear, hear.) He (Lord J. Russell)
could undue:aid the hon. gentleman's course. After the
strong and decided opinions he had imbibed, his course was
perfectly clear and intelligible; but the noble lord—if he
would permit him to parody one of his own declarations—
was neither conservative nor reformer. (Hear, hear.)
He was not conservative; for nothing more
alien to conservative principles could be con-
ceived than to shake existing authority; and he was
not reforming, for he could not show by a single sentence
what plan he would adopt. (Cheers.) The right hon.
gentleman had spoken of the dangers that threatened Asia
and China in 1833. But would he follow out that prece-
dent ? Did the government of Lord they is 1833
for two roars—or even for two months—their legi=
No. Amidst the dangers to which the right hon. gentle-
man had referred the bill wait introduced into this house. It
was nail a second time the 9th July. It was
read a second time in the House of Lords Ai
the 2nd of August, and it was soon after passed
through parliament by the prompt decisioa of Lord
Grey's government. Let the right hon. gentleman com-
plete his precedent; and as he admired the speeches and
declarations of Lord Grey in 1813 let him be ready to fol-
low the example of Lord Grey in 1833. (Great cheering.)
There did not, therefore, seem to him to be any great
weight in the arguments for delay. (Hear, hear.) The
authority of Lord Dalhousie and Lord Harding, might
fairly be quoted, as the opinions of other persons
had been quoted from time to time in that boom.
That opinion added additional weight to the question itself.
Nestcame the great question of the " double government,"
the question as to the nature of the government they were
to give to India. He lagged the house to recollect that
which the sight hon. gentleman did not seem to have kept
in mind—namely, the general argument used on former
occasions, used by Mr. Macaulay, used by Mr. Mill in his
evidence, in favour of what was called double government.
The noble load (Stanky) had admitted that though they
spoke of double and single government, hitherto no one
had proposed anything but a double government, because
no one said that it would be sufficient to have a minister of
the crown entrusted with the affairs of India, without the
assistance of a council of capes ienced person. The ergo-
meut used had been always this—you can have no other
government in India but a despotism; you must, there-
fore, have in this country some check which shall temper
that despotism, and act as a check on the Governor-General,
however wise, able, and temperate he may be—nay, let him
have all the abilities of Lord Wellesley, and ell the virtues
of Lord Wm. Bentinck. You can have no better check than
a body of persons independent in their position, men tho-
roughly acquainted with the affairs of ladle, who shall be
able to go into the details of every measure proposed or
adopted, and who would thereby oblige the Governor-Ge- '
neral to act most considerately." 1 hat theory of the go-
vernment of India, supported as it was by 70 years expe-
rience, ought to have considerable weight. He did not say
that that might be at all times the best government, or that
they might not be able, as in mechanical inventions, when
the object was attained, to simplify the machinery and dis-
pense with unnecessary wheels. But the course of true
wisdom at the present time was to adopt the
government that was recommended by such au-
thorities, upheld by sqgh arguments, and confirmed
by such experience. Two defects, however, had
been oonatantly pointed out, and pointed out by those who
now found fault with the government for attempting to
correct those defects. One was the time and solicitation
required to obtain election to the court of directors, which
deterred many of the ablest servants of the company who
came home from India from seeking that honour. Another
was that the directors had so much patronage, especially
civil patronage, that it had great influence in their election.
It was now propeeed that • certain number of directors
should be named by the crown from persons who had had
ten years' service in India, without going through the pro-
cess of an election., This proposal quite did away with the
objection. It was the proposal of Mr. Chas. Wynn ; and
they had also adopted his limitation of 10 years' service in
India. Every one knew that persons who came home after
along service in India were not such extreme ; the
welfare of India was uppermost in their min ; and whe-
ther appointed by one ministry or another, they would attend
to the interests of India above all other objects. Another pro-
posal of Mr. Wynn's they had adopted, and which Lord
Glenelg wished to adopt in 1833—t0 diminish the number
of directors. Mr. 'Wynn gave an admirable reason for it;
the 24 directors were divided into four unusittees, three of
whom were on subjects connected with Inds; but, as the
business connected with trade and gegnmigne was to be taken
away from them, they would sot used men than ene com-
mittee, and it was not reasonable to keep up the same num-
ber of directors. The other proposal, that the civil offices
of India should be open to general competition, was not only
fousied on sound principles, but it might hereafter be of
*tautest importance with respect to the government of
It would connect the people of this country of all
AIM with the government of India, sad would create •
Iliassienetal concern awl interest in its welfare. It would
daps an and to the fear, which he had always entertained,
Mat perliamast would some day or other pm the man
of India and its vast palssmsga ass.
Ha 10=11$nothing would be sus eniposeso
me noxious to India—(hear, bear)—asaing nose
[ injurious to the constitution of this ormatry. (Haan
hear.) One gestlessan of very siasidarable ability lug.
well sequoias& with India, who had written on tuia
whims (Mr. ( ), said it wadi be a good disallow
Ilia of patrasessi If lodise Aloes was given to peones
amamstendoi by As Howse of Clamatme. He could me
ales nothing UM Washes to IP ammeter at OP
hash (am, Issar.) But if Me phi papal was
alma& mid was sassamtal, whither thus govaireaat
Vas aatiassi in the saapanyLE_lenesland is Sri
IMAM Pen was an sad if the al whisk he bad
spoken, and a ash askoken, was ins W Ai! saisi Oa
patronage. (Hear. bear.) He war asisaiths& at Ilse
,sane panned tg Mr.. Hume, Pig la hasp of
peassinent by the mem int a media whim °b-
ands offset was is weaken, ant emanally waived ebb
gsmninsat by the company. afar, bar.) As to the
minis In which Po government ',of India had bass
asalastei. be tins& the 'passel malts wars a
lissaitag swaths st Jai* iingsemormt of lbo
in the Weis washy,
""gr:asti=orattisselt than awe ewe Wawa before,
and spy spaakbg, s flourishing and ponspan em-
pire,-wboso PM they ban now to ssaider. (Haar, hear.)
It was said we bad not those gnat palls works in India
which the lama sultans and founded, and that
H we were is leas India, we elsouY leave no ammammt et
our power behind us. He mainly differed Ma OW
(Hear, hear.) Looking bark at the governante:WM
empires in India adthe mets he saw Bide 1111 in
theta. 11e saw, undosbeedly.piarerfc.lN=lialfig asia•
Wished that poesy by of all
peat works for glitrellerraistinal re=
ton. (Hear, bens ohne w won the labour of [
Warm taken Is mar. (Chaos.) Thug woe is
fact a roma ed dm mial sal enelnresee of those primness,
who, in one Mtge Ineried with humanity and kind-
ness. The aMsload *asps, an eloquent description et
the beadMs tibia me bsi salsaiall M India, by introdming
European Illasaisis dd asiass, sad contended that Pm
mossimas if an Tale wore miss minable than any_otham
His bast sal hop was that the griemmwe this saw
try wadi lag continue in WM. (Haar, hear.) Bs
alit as se ether power that was Shay to maintain pea
swage the various nations which inhabited it—he ad!
MN MO Mbar power so likely to introduce improvements
has line to time, tending to the civilisation of the poi&
hear),—end believing that such was their great
ginden, he should decidedly, as far as he was concerned,
be no party to putting that power in jeopardy by two years
agitation, uncertainty, and delay, and he should there-
/we vote against the amendment of the noble lord, and
trusted that the hems would assent to the second reading
of this measure. (Neer, bear.)
The house then divided,
For the amendment
Against it 322-182
The bill was then read a second time.
WESTMINSTER BRIDGE BILL.
This bill as amended was considered, after an ineffectual
attempt at postponement by Mr. Taiwan and Sir C.
Bowls.
SAVINGS BANK ANNUITIES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
LEASING POWERS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read • third time and passed.
PARISH VESTRIES (No. 2) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
LIVERPOOL WRIT—ADJOURNED DEBA'r..
On the order of the day for the adjournment .. this

debate,
Lord D. STUART, whose rising was received with loud
cries of " Oh, oh," said he would not detain the house.
Ills only object was to postpone the issue of the writ till
the 20th of July, in order that he might
ballobring before the
house a motion for taking the votes by t, which he
could not move till the 19th.
A discussion ensued, in which Lord PALMIABTON
rioposed that the writ should be postponed for a fort-
night, to allow members to read the evidence, but with-
drew his motion ; and Mr. HINDLET moved the adjourn-
ment of the debate, and then withdrew that motion.