The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-19 00:00:00

BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.

Lord John RUSSELL asked the honourable member
for Kilmarnock. as well as the other honourable members
who had preoedence after him over the order of the day
for committee of supply, to waive same in order that the go-
vernment might be able to proceed with the estimates. In
return for this courtesy he wou.d be willing to give up
Monday next, from twelve o'clock, to those honourable
members who bed precedence oil the present occasion, and
he trusted that the business of the house would be so far
transacted by four or six o'clock, as to allow the honourable
member for Cockermouth to proceed with his motion when
the house resumed, which would be after the speaker had
hal his customary lots real of rest for two hours. He hoped
the :„house would secede to his proposition. He
knew that the honourable member for Montrose was
anxious to bring on the mo inn of which he had
given notice, but be had 111 doubt. he (L^rd J. Russell)
would he able, by waiving the prudence which the govern-
ment had on supply nights, to afford the hon. gentleman an
opportunity for so doing.
Mr. BOUVERTE consented to forego his right of prece-
dence, provided all the other hon. members, who were in
the same position as himself, did so.

Mr. HUME said he was at lions for the supplies to be
granted, knowing that atter th. y were voted, an interval of
eight or ttn dsys must elapse before the business of the
session could be elrged ; all he 10 dof the government was,
that if they determined to give no relief to British Guiana,
he might have an opprtunitv cf stating the case of that
colony, and if the noble lord would insure him this, he
would at once Rive way.
Aft, r some further cenvcrtatinn,

Mr. HORSM AN said he had no hesitation in giving way,
provithd he was assured of being able to bring on his motion
in sufficient time on Monday, to elms the debate that
night.

The following bills were then poetponed until Monday
next :—Clergy Relief, Sunday Trading, Cruelty to Ani-
mals, Protection to Women, Marriages, Chattels Partition,
and Cumpnurd Houßahnlders;

Mr. SOTHERON withdrew his Friendly Societies Bill.

SUPPLY.

The house then went int;commii.ee of supply.
The sum of 163 3731. was p-oposed to complete the amount
squired to maintain the ordnance establishments in the
United Kingdom and the colonies.
Mr. HUM K proested ag Inst the system of keeping large
perishable pions in marai'ms in tropical elimates. There
w.rr upward+ of 2,000,0001, worth of storca thus howled ; all
of which were liable to he sp died. and to be rendered
useless,. Instead of diminishing this item of expenditure
in accordanmi with the report of the commit•ee of 1833,
the govern-rent bad gone on accumulating perishable swill
In the colonits. The item of gunpowder for salutes and such
like nonsense was a very Idle ►nd heavy charge. A bishop could
not move from one Wand to another viithnut a royal salute.
He had ri ccived a lett( r from an effirer, stating that the coat

,
of the approaching Petite at Chatham wnuld not be leas than
20 0301 Now this waa a watann w.ate of the public money.
Take the rear. 1833, 1834, and 1835, the watt of pet+ miles
only was 3,221/. ; in 1836, 1837, and 1839 it wee 32,0001..
more than t. n time. incr....id II tween 1,500 and 2,000
- .

shells, whit h cost 16s. 61. each, bad been expended in a time
of peace. In the nave the annual consumption of shot, in a
time of pace, was 160,0001 liverrhing was on the same
scale of war expenditure. Re was himself awoke every
morning, after being late in the house, by the beating of
drums under his window, as if London was in a state of
siege. (A laugh.)

Lord J. RUSSELL dia net mean to lay that farther
effort+ of economy might not be merle, hut he complained
that his hon. friend never took notice of any changes in the
way of economy. He retnemlinri d a time when a peer of
th. realm who went on board a man•of-war was received
with a regular salute. He did not deny that there might be
further reductions in that respect. With Trap' et to the hon.
member saying that we were living almost in a stete of war,
c rtsinly the hon. member had a very diffi rent taste from
Mr. Burke, who said t' at oro of his remons for regretting
the loss of r film was, that when he was Paymaster of the
Forces he hail an opportunity of hearing the Tritis;c in the
park, which, to a paymeeter.gencral, as he well knew, was
a very 'tremble sound. Putting mile that matter of taste,
he thought hie hon. friend wee too much in the
habit of viewing those things as if all the some
that were expend, d in military end naval defences
were foe• in consequence of our being in a state of
peace. With regard to the assertion which the ho-
nourable member had no frequently made, that this
country wan under a load of taxation which it was not able
to support, he must ref rto the ara•ement made by the hon.
member for Stamford (Mr. Henries), when he compered t►e
thane, s of this country with those of France, and showed
Chet sir,ce the pear* thirty-nine m'llions of taxes had been
reduced. He (Lon' J. ItoonnI) ,houcht 'het the psymon,
of thirty-nine millions a sear leas than in 1816, was r duvion
tasatien. It was proved by the right hon. g wiener's,
and an body vonturi dto con' redid his stetement. He there-
fore did not believe that we wire labouring under the pets
sure of an Menem(' amount of texition.

Mr. V. SMITE, adverting to the efforts of the hon. mem-
ber for Mon•rose, said that nn one had done more for the
cause of economy than that hon. member, hut he rather
frittered away a good cans*, as when he concluied hi• speech
by introducing the subject of saluting:the bishops. There w.e
undoubtedly a great COO for economy. The government had
kept up an amount of steers calculated for the two yearn ex-
penditure of the hot Euva posit war. On what principle did
they mean to keep up that stock ? Did they mean to keep
up sufficient to ext. rsninate the whole of Europe ? It was
the amount which they had at the close of the last European
war. Could any war break out, on that immense scale, sud-
denly ? In advocating a reduction he was ,peaking entirely
of the approaching session became he still entertained an
opinion, that up-n ti^e present report, it would he impos-
sible for the government to proceed. The general opinion
of the noble chairman and of most of the members of the
' commit...* was that thee should not proceed this session.
lie; hoped that by that time government themselves would
have considered these querions.

After a few words from Lord J. Rummy.. and Mr. an3in,
Mr. COBDEN said that his experience, as a man of busi-
ness, and from what he had seen of the evidence before the
committee, was that government was wider a great delusion
as to the way in which they carried on the manufacturing
eetablishmenrs in every breech of the service. They
had no notion of what alines cost when they
manufactured themselves ; the mrde in which the parties
having the superintendence made their report. was utterly
fallacious, not worth one farthing. Take the case of powder.
Gantlemen brought in a very detailed account before the
commits e, to ehow this* powder could he made at something
lees than it could he bought from a private dealer. He took
the opportunity of questioning these gentlemen as to the
mode in which they ascertained the cost of this powder. He
found that nothing was put down for the cost of the plant;
nothing less put down for the interest of houses or clttages
connected with the plant; nothing was put down for
the intt rest of the money embarked in the floating
stack. There were 100,000 lbs. of saltpetre and brimstone—
noaccount was taken of the interest of the money so invested.
There w.s another manuttatture which you carried on ; that
of the brass ordnance. You said that you could not eet brawl
ordnar.ce that you coulil r. ly upon. He thought it
was • groat stigma on the character of brasrountlers
if much were the fact ; hut he doubted it. (Heir,
hear.) ate word as to the stores on hand; be would
not dwell upon is, because the hon. member for Northampton
bad antieinared him in what he had to say. The number
of the ordnanes estehlishments in England was 3.5.
That number was fixed berate the present means
of rapid elountiniewion existed, which now et allied
us to carve an% thin.t to any east of the kingdom in 11 or 1.5
hours ; and .t was the unanimous opinion of the committee
that Serest wine mieht he effected by dimi..ishin• the
number of the ordnance estnblishmen*s; by doing what pri-
vate de.l ra and merchants were doing—diminishiux the
quantity et as irk, in consequence of the facility of recruiting
stock, and ale, dinti..i.hing the number of stores where they
kept stocks in ei neequence of the facility of getting stock
from the cr. 'sal depot. With the electric telegraph and
railways they miaht oraer any qoantity of stock
they liked (rim Woolwieh or the Tower, and might
get it to any part of Scotland in fifteen hours;
and he did think that to keep up storekeepers, deputy store-
keepers, an-4 All that clam of gentry, was vow ressary.
They were apendeng an enormous amount of money not only
in their &Anil, s, but also in their military establishments.
There was Hong-King; during the last four years we had
spent on that pestiferous rock 123,000/. He would also
refer to Labuse Lut ear the Secretary of State, be
fore thew was ea a t, Wok up kb pew and

:brought before the house an estahliebment of 1,000 or fie
persoer, conies ing of posy-vaster, police officers, deptty.
governor, and all the paraphernalia of a sealed and chiles/
dominion. (Hear, heir) With regard to the aunt, le
wished to point out one or two exomples. which hon. genes.
men would at once understand, snit which confirmed the
remarks made by the hon. geotlem n the member fig
Northampton. To show the immense amount of mores es
Apt on and, hoe. gentlemen would by-and-bye receive as
appendix to the report, with the evidence, and statist/cm me
details. We had in hand 142,000 pikes; we delivered
out atonally for use 3,000. So that we bad in bead
• consumption of forty-seven years of pik, a. (Hear, Mete
We had 170,000 havresacks in store, perishable articles ; we
delivered out annually 7,000, and had 24 years' supply ee
havresacke (Hear, bear.) There were 21,000 kettles; we
cousumed 3,000 kettles a year, so that we had eight yewh
consumption of kettles. We had 1,200,000 eandbage in stela
and delivered out 36,000, and had 34 ;toe' supj ly of mad
bags. Them were all perishable stores. The Lon. gentle.
man the member fur Northampton had stated to the beam
one of the evils arising from keeping this immense
amount of stores, viz.—that changes took p.m* Ia
the censtruction of arms, and teat ell the gad;
in hand would become obsolete. II i would give an illustra-
tion of that. In the year 1835 we had 238 percussion =s-
leets in store. We began in 183 e to .dept petcuaion mos.
kets, but we had in store 448,e00 flint muskets. The
448,000 flint muskets became superseded by the mutation
muskets. It would nit have been advisable to havehada
flint musket in store at all, and notwithstanding we had
been going on gradually adopting percussion muskets, still
be found that we had now in store 16a,000 flint nom
kets, and he believed 200,000 were burnt in the
Tower. That was not a.!. We had from thirty
to forty millions of flint cartriders made up. We
had thirty millions of flint cartridges now in store.
These were not adapted for pacustoon mullets. This
showed the absurdity of keeping up such an enormous
amount of stores. Take the article of cannon. When we
adopted the change of our armament, we found that the
French began to adopt 32-pouodcre as the only cohere of
guns to be used. Instantly your cuionades and all your
guns of small calibre were superseded. Trey bad it In evi-
dence that 20.000 cannons became useless by the adoption
of this heavier armament. He saw, from the news-
papers, that in Prussia they hod adopted a musket with
• long range-600 yards—and he saw that elm rime's%
were being made at Cbatham on teat subject. If they
should be adopted, all the stoic of muskets would be use-
less. Why did they keep such stores in this coun-
try with suoh mighty resources ? (Hear, hear.)
There was nothing that you could not get in
this country to almost any extent in two years; if
you paid the price, you might get it in a very few
months. It was stated before the a mmittee
one of the witnesses that if you chose to give him a
small additional price, you might get 4,000 32-
pounders in one week. It was clear that you might get
20,000 or 30,000 barrels of gunpowder in another, if you
chose to pay • little extra price. What wee the effect of
keeping this enormous amount of stores? Last year the
Chancellor of the Eacheqcer disposed of old stores to the
amount of 480,0001. He did not say it was the Ordnance;
and this year he bad taken credit in the budget tor • sum
that amounted to 1,960,0001. Ile aimed the house how much,
did that cost ? He had no doubt that them sores cost three
millions at heat (Hear, bear) It was to prevent the ne-
cessity of this transaction that he wished government to
direct their attention to the necessity of keeping a much
smaller stock of stores ; and as to • remark of the hon. mem-
ber for Northampton as to the course which Earl Grey was
disposed to take on the colonies, he thought teat when they
found • minister disposed to co in the right date ion they
ought to encourage him in that course, and it would be
found that Earl Grey had stated in his evidence his determi-
nation to begin with the Australi cn coloeies ; he had gins
notice to the Australian colonise. that was to sty, M
South Australia, New Sonth Wales,' and Melbourne,
that after the beginning of the next financial year
they must be prepared to take on themselves the
barracks and:ordnance stores, and supply the troops with
stores in (entre. (Hear, hear.) lie thought that was a
very good principle to begin with, but he thouuht the noble
lord might be encouraged to carry out that principle further.
One of the ministers of Canada was now in this
country negotiating a loan. They did not come to
parliament to ask for is authority. There wu Canada
in the market, negotiating nn her own MOUTCII-••
on her own responsibility, without consulting England.
No other part of this empire could raise one farthing
without coming to the house for power to do so. Did he
cotnpiain of this ? No, he said that the only way in whittle
you could keep the connexion which alone was weed be-
tween England and the colone,was to give to a cemmunity like
that of Canada, with a pepul eti in of I.:700 000 of people, the
fullest amount of local self government ; t.ut when he said
that, whilst he was fir the most perfect freedom, ungtudg-
iogly on the one hand, he said to them on the other, yon
will allow us to act as in the case of an individual ; when a
young man rises to manhood and sets up for himself he an
no longer expect that his aged pare= should pay his et-
pence.. We had 8,000 troops in North America,
where there was lets then two millions of people.
The United States had 9,eOJ troops with twenty
millions of people, with a frontier of Indians whom
the troops had to control. We fad 640,0001. of oedema
stores. The American government, if they kept up a singlet
proportion for 20 millions of inhabitants, would keep up
something like eight millions worth c f stores, and he did net
believe that the United States had a greater amount of stores
in all their territories than we h..d in Canada. I am quite
sure (said Mr. C rbdcn in coneheion) that the country will
expect (for we are only on the eve of this discussiou) that
before the next meeting of parliament government will be
prepared to take steps to reduce the expenditure, and it can
be mainly done in remodelling the armament. Is does not
do for the noble lord to say, do not act as a private individual,
who would discharge the watchman who had prevented
him from b ing attacked. Wnat we complain o: is this,
that whilst the government have been telling us, every
year, that we were on the most friendly terms with foreign-
ers, we have doubled the eapetises of the ordnance eines
1835 ; for you voted double the amount last year
that you voted in 1835; ard, therefore, it is like
the case of a merchant, who ef,er fifteen years doubled
the number of his watchmen ; it is not • question whether
you are going to discharce the watchman. Nor will it do
for the noble lord to answer in t` e way he has repeatedly
answered, by saying that he had reduced the amount of
taxation during the lasi ten years. There is a veil in this
which is perfectly well underrood by the country. The
noble lord says that we hays diminished th • nominal rate of
taxation to the amount of 39 miiii ins. lie forgets that it
was done by shifting the taxation, so that the old taxes have
become much more productive. The question is not how
you bare shifted the t x oion, but how much you have
expended, and bow much do you collect from the people.
And I tell the noble lord, as I told him before, that you are
now collecting five million more taxes than you did when
the Duke of Wellington was prime minister, before the pas-
ing of the Reform Bill. I liMit the advantage of shifting
the taxation. I concur that by this scientific arrangement of
taxation, which was created by Mr. 'Leskinen, the people of
this country bear a larger amount of taxation than the
people of say other country, ant I attribute this to the
mien ific alerts made by those statesmen who shifted and
changed the taxation of the country, but the burden re-
mains, and the people wish to dimibish the burden, aid I can
see ne reason why, before the next meeting of parliament,
the country should not expect s large reduction. (Cheers.)

Lord J. RUSSELL di 1 not comolain of the manner is
which the hon. gentleman, the member for the West Rid-
ing, had made his remarks, but he could not allow them to
pans entirely without comment, because the questions he
had raised were not qiite.ionts that concerned this govern-
sent, or any government of this country, but they were
very important questions as relating to the position of this
empire. Theretere he could not piss them entirely by,
without some remarks The honourable gentleman be-
gan by saying that be f iund, upon the inquiry by the
committee, that which confirmed hie previous anticipations
that for the government to midi rtske the manufacture of
any particular article was a very wasteful and extravagant
course, and that it was far b .tier to contract with private
dialers fur any stores. He quite admitted, upon this sub-
j ct, that the ifeneral rule ought to be to contract with pri-
vate dealers, and that the onus probandi lay on the govern-
ment to show, with respiTt to uny article, that it was more
advantageous to the public that they should have a meta-
-1 factory of their own, than reiefr• to a private dealer. That,
he thought, was the gunerial principle; but when
the hon. gentleman went on TO say that, with re-
spect to some of the articles which were essential far
carrying on the defence of the country, and the
defence of our poresaiots in time of war, that there was
no need, as he understood him. of keeping up stores of them
articles, hecause in two ye ire they could he produced by the
manuficturers, he owned he thought that with tegard to
this suhj• c as with rgri to every other subject, there was
an extreme on the one side so crest as the extreme on the
other. Nott iog was more fullacitus t ian to have thirty or
forty stores f an article which probably might be super-
seded by some better inv if ion ; and in such a case it
ought; but on the other hand, if such a war were breaking
out as did brink nut after the pine.. of Amiens; that this
country had tt go to war with sac% a country as France,
and the manufacturers of the non •ry were to come down
and say, there has been .tact, an insult to us, it
impossible for us to remain at peace, but I am
sorry to tell you we AA not be prepared
to meet the eggreesione in less than two years.
Although it might be perfectly right am proper to revise
and reform our store system, still he could not admit that it
would he eqnally proper to leave the country in other then
an &deem,. state of defence. (Hem, heir.) With respect
to the colonies, he weed with the hon. member for the
West Rdi g, in thinking that us a general principle, their
defence should be thrown on the colinies themselves, and
that principle had been annnu'ced by his noble friend
(Lord Grey) shortly alter his entering office. He did not
mean to defend wasteful expenditure, or ammonite in Cana-
dian foridea inns, but on the other hand our policy should
not be amid-only *hanged; the colonies should not have
reason to think that we heti cased to defer.d them, nor
should we he called upon, even by next session, to declare
that government were prep trod to allot a policy which might
sever all connexion b. tweet, Great Britain and her colonies.
He &denim d that there wee q iestions connected with this
subject of the most serious nature, and which parliament
were bound to take into consideration. (Hear, hear.) He
thought th,t the adoption of principles, which had put an
end to colonial protection and mnnoply, and of various
other measures by this country—such as giving to her
colonies free representative instituti ens, must all lead to a
new construction of the ennnexion between her and her
colonies. f Hear, hear)) If measures, conceived with that
view, were conducted with pftl4”.re end gradually, he
believed that the Mune:ion be• w. en hot% might be mad*
more firm and lasting, and moot mutually auvantageona
than it bad hitherto been (Flew. hear.) On ths other
hand, he should be afraid of doing anything calculated

make oar onlordsts thick that we cued no longer abmt oar
eolosiil enn
Mr. COBDEN trusted that the noble lord did not inner
that le, as a man of bearer, could have contended that no
stock of storks Was unaware. All he had erased spinet
was the ever., and yet the noble lord had spoken u if he
(Mr. Cobden) had lugged against stores entree.
Mr. E. ELLICE observed that with ngsrd to out eelenial
system we a ula sot ietrodnee great changes all at etre. To
be male and beneficial such changes at some on by deities
Mr. HUME complained of the ismer, amount set down
Is this vote for hair ..ks. The committee that sat is 1828
found the sum then at down for barracks in the Vatted
Itiegd&m to be 83,0001, and they strenuowly recommended
that so move nimay should be rpent for that purpose. But,
notwithstanding that catnips, the hoer would see that the
sum increased every year. In DM 36 it was 65,0001. • in
1840, 89,000/ '• in 134646, 160,0001. ; and for 184; 49
it was 163 0001. (Hear, hear.) 700,0001. bad been
upeoded foe new terra hr err the peciud when the
sommittee recommended a aeration of such extravagance.
(Hear, beer.) There we, 137,0001. for building a single
bantam at Bolton • indeed the whole country was studded
with narks, rif object was to make England one net
garrison.
Colonel ANBO:4, amid loud eries of " question," said that
it was not his intention to touch on the generl principles
which had born so ably diwussed by his noble Irked. All
In should sty wca that le felt confident that when nest the
Prime Mir ter toe parliament, some important alterations
would have bent elf curd. (Hear. hear) There had bra
relied however wine questions of detail 'unnamed with the
*Meares to which as would be necessary that kip should
make some allurion. The hon. member for Montrose had
set dean the difference between the estimates of
1833 and the present atimins at 1,800,0001., it was
actually 1.130,0001. But the house should bear in
mind. that &lore 1835 new services had been imposed
en hie department to the amount of 300,0001, and then
there was the increase of 30,000 men, which parliament had
auctioned. As to the increase for barracks, it might be
mounted for in the same way : 11. a head for each soldier
would glse3o,oool. At home our establishments oust less by
3,8001., but the alrial had increased—and whyf Blmpy
Decease we hal iacraxed the another of oar aerobe.
The vote wee then agreed to. •
71,330 J. to e replete the sea necessary for defraying ex-
penses and wages of snit/gen and labourers in the United
Elnedom and the coloniee.—Agreed to.
162 418/ , to a mplece the sum nessmary for ordnance
stores, land and va services.

Mr. HUME salted whether en large a suns as 120,0001.
would b. taken ker small arms, pending experiments with a
sew description o= make'
Cohnel ANSON said it wu necessary to ham a large
stack of p. museum guns.
Str J. GRAHAM wi.hed to call the attention of the Chem-
teller of the Buhr gut r to the mode in which the strre so-
counts of the thr.. great departments of tine army, navy,
sad ordnance were kept. The nab account was kept
Ia In menceptionekle manner; but the method of
limping. the store amount was most unsatisfactory,
as wog every laeday for misappropriation sod
abuse. He bed !limber, introducod the present nude of
keeping the cash tax; on: when in °Sot, sad had intended
to extend It to star. s ; bet now 15 emus had elapeed, and
no improvement had taken Voce. He trusted that the Chan-
cellor at the Etc egoist would tarn his attention to the sub-
ject duriee the Mtn.
The LHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
that the changes iutrodued by the right hon. baronet had
been great improve mute He proaised to tura his atten-
tion to the matter before next see ion of parliament.
Mr. J. B. SMITH expressed a hope that the government
would not go to the r opera of pervasion gnu until they
saw whether they were not likely to he superseded by the
mew invited's*.

Tha OTteliis then speed to.
Colonel ANSON said that on the next vote, No. 7, he ob-
served that the hon, baronet the member far Southwark had
• notice on the paper for a reduction of the vote for works
is Derma 4, the Mauritius, and the lonian Island.. He
wished to inform the hon. baronet that he had deduct. d half
althe amount from the vote for these services, and that the
geveroment inteuied to sop all Walter expense that was not
absolutely att."! Ty.
Thermo of 236,4361., to complete the amount required for
works, bedlam" and repairs iu our cola
Sir W. HOLISWIJK 1H said—After whet has been stated
by the bun. aid idler% cater, I will not make the motion
of which 1 gave ao ice, bet still I feel called on to make
some °canines, upon this satin. The maim I gave no
tiro for was that this vote be reduced by the MCA of 19,1611,
which it es proposed to expend en adman Mons at Bet-
mode, the Hamenius, aid die lonian Made. From 1828
to 18474 inconn ea have spent 183,1461 on ordnance stores
at Berson& Last year w, evessioned certain new works at
Bennada,whisth wear tinted tt son 60022, and we voted
11,2131. en mount of tae m ; this yen the vote proposed is
he 4,948, ; d i. be awed to, 49,7311. would be required t I
empiric, the works in pro. tees ; besides these works there
are others in nos empla ion wl.i la, according to a tough
estimate, will soft 60,000/. I p-opere that this vote for 80--
mud. shalt he asap nJed, fur the reasons rat din the extract
from the rep rt of the onsaare committee, wh eh I will now
reed : t• Earl Oen a wed to your committee that he con-
sidered Bermuda a most iseporrent station for the pr Ratio&
of our trade end far the defense of our Wirt Inhere poises-
eions. 11. is, however, of opinion that no new wake should
be commenced at Bermuda, because he has bees 114mnd
that Lor l Dut donald, the eontiral on the station, sad Capt.
Elliot, the go -ernor. nommen() an alteration in the system
of deteui e. The plan sanctioned in the year 1824 Is said to
be issulacient at the present time, mid it is suggested that a
flotilla or steamer. would *Cord the most effective means of
defence," sad the easisitt.• " recommend that before
120likralltil is leaked the goaroment should reconsider the
actual of this suet dour, and the plan to be adopted."
In the Mauritius 203,9491. have been expended on ordnance
works from 1828 to 1847-8. The year before last we enm-
unwed mean Parthenon for the deform of P.,rt Louis
which were anointed to oat 149,2911. This estimate hes
bees reread, and now amounts to 158,54.51., to which
most be added an additional sum of 68,0001, which will be
required to complete the sea def. nes ; making in ell
216,8361 fur sea detente, eseltrive of land defences. I: is
end that these works are very much wanted ; for it is stated
that the Moorings is an More ant military station, and that
in the last war before • • took possession of it seven millions
worth of prizes were taken into ft. It it also maid that wi.h-
out these fortifications it would be difilault, is the erne of a
war, to retain p asession of the Mauritius; and if we were
to low possession of it, it would be difilcolt to regain pases-
sion of it—in both c sees fur the same reason, because the
intlitential portion of the pupula:ion are hostilo to as.
Hens the alleged necessity tor net and land defences. Fcr
the sea detonate we have voted 10,0001. in the course of the
last two yeses, and it is propond to vote for them 5,0001 a
year. A. they are to net 21b,8351., at least forty years will
slime before they CAD he completed. It was the general
opinion of the eouersittee, if we could on without them for
so loot • period of time, we could do without them altogether.
Now with regar.l rs the !onion Islands they wire placed
under oar protection in 1816. Lord Bathurst said they
would be valuable to us fir commercial pupa's, aid that
they were to pay their ripener. Lord Lowdown, how-
ever, being a wiser and far-seeing statesman, said they would
be bardiensosse, ex, crier, and of no use. Lord Lans-
downe we ri -ht; our 'sport trade to them hes not ex-
toned 120,0001. • year on the average; and though we
have compelled them to pay heavy contribution., they have
toot as at least 130,0001. a year for troops, &c . or about
four n Mona and a half tines the peace Of that sum
456,0001 have bees for ordnance works. We might with-
drew all our troops Tomorrow without violating any treaty,
and the lonian States would be delighted if we did W. pro.
vided we relieved them from their heavy slithery contribu-
tions. I am *nab'e to state precisely how much the
louden tea are indebted to us. A,return on this suhj et
was ordered by the cheitman of the ordnance committee
some months ago, but it harlot been made. From a return
presented to parliament a me time ago, it appears that, from
the In Nov , 1834, to 31. t Jan., 1842 they ought to have
paid us for military cororihuoions 2.53,7501, or at the rate of
36,000 f. a year ; hewer r, they only paid us 131,5001., and
were indebted to us 121,2701. Since then their debt h,s
gone on Increasing, I toll oe at least in the mane proportion.
I am informed Ont. since 1817, they have paid us 800,0001.;
at the rate of 35,0001 a year ; they ought to have paid us
1,100,0001. ; therefore it is not tape aahle that they ewe
us at the present moment 300,0001. on the whole account.
In fact, if the honourable gentleman the Clerk of
the Ordnance, instead of saying on a former oar-
Mil= that the lonian Bates had paid 3400001 for ord-
nance works, bad said that they owed us 300,0001., he would
have keen the truth. If the committee will refer to
page 53 of the Ordnance Eitimoto a of this year, they will find
again, under the three heads et " already voted," " &heady
expended," and " require t ter completing works," a: Corte,
the word nil; the proposed vote for this year being
9,2061. The question i. whether we shall agree to ten
vote, the facts of the Cate being that in the coarse of the
last tea years we have voted 100,5001. for them : piece tho
commencement we have expoeded on them 346,0001. To
complete them Sir J Burgoyne stated that !a addition to the
vote of this year 37 0001. more would be required ; and even
then 60.0002 additions' would be wanted to make Corfu a
strong place. I will answer Val question by reading a few
sentences from the report of the ordnance committee, is
which they state, that " wording to Lord Grey's views,
these works should 'sever have been undertaken; one of the
great of j. ctions to the fortifications which have been con-
structed towards the sea is, th ttheyrenderotherfortifications
on the land side necessary also; otherwise it may he that
we have only constructed fortification against ourselves.
If Corfu had been left undefended, it could never have been
held against a great naval power; but as it is, being fortified,
it bungles upon too, i• the event of a war, the inooavenient
steetotit7 of maintaining a large garrison there. Then
anon* have satisfied me that we ought to spend
no more money on fortifLations ie the lonian Intends,
and 1 for one will never ay sanction to another vote for
that pupae*.
Cot ANSON observed that the money expended is con-
tracting the mortification would be the means of reducing the
expenditure, as a smaller intalter atriums andel be required
than when they eateaded, as they formerly did, ever the
entire Wand.
Col. THOMPSON bunted to konw of what use We
Cards He had been told it was for the defence of the Gulf
of
Waite, but he denied teat at the diatomite( 60 miles
those fortification cou'd be of any advantage wbetever- The
last military improvements had ceespletely lbws up the
ancient theory that fortresses could have say asks further
than within sight. He wished that gendsraws be ea sew
nosy wombd sib what number of than liras aare AslWds
what advantages we derived frees tads, tbs. "hi ism
their worth, sad what the expense of raskadatits SIM •
Sir D. L. EVANS did sat agree with the hos, lone
the imembet for Sosithmsk as to the healthy el essillying
those WWII bosom they well el post political isagaggia

to this scanty. At the setae time he thought that some
works to prams the towns from the predaury attacks of a
naval foram would be amply sufficient, and that the sum of
486,0001. was far toe mach. lie would suggest to the
goverasent the expediency of considering whetter it would
sot be advisable to forego any arrears that might still
remain due.

Mr. HOME pressed on the government the neenalty ef
establishing a repreeen•ative government in these islands.
He melted to know whether the expenditure for the Mauri-
tius world be stopped. The Ant lien was 5,0001, and it
involved all the rest. He objected to It until they bad all
the reports betide them.
Colonel ANSON said that there would be a further soul-
legation of the question before they expended any looney f2r
the Mauritius.

Mr. V. SMITH raid that the harm and the country were
week Madam' to the hen. butmet, the member for South-
wark, fen having called the attentke of the committee to
them voter, sad laving obtained hem the government an
mum that their amention woad be directed to the rub.
jest erdp nem emelem, sad the withdrawal of half the
susest of the votes. At the wee Wm he was gm the
hes. hems' did age Odle the wanamittee, bet regarded,
end Wily, the anneweammett es the part of the govern.
war, as a judiseden its set wain his sake.

Mr. W. 1111.1$ wee glell to lei litie the sheaths of the
house lel bees anal t. ilth pilot es sae epplylei to the
Clerk of the Chime. Ile bed eserresised elude the lest
three penal* melees ens thee MOIL had been po applied
to satergeat servisso by the emspiedea of other works. He
referred to the mos Odra 'lmpose Barracks, which it was
aow found would mot WOOL berme the sum originally es-
timated.

Sir J. GRAHAM said the attention of the Una bad
been called to the evil, but not to the remedy suggested by
the committee. Until 1836 there were balances which it
wee in the power of the government to appropriate ; but
under the improved mode of keeping the accounts, all the
unexpended belawies were paid into the exchequer, a power
being memsearily voted in the treasury of meeting
easergensies by a special order. While the committee re-
eommealed that that power should be retained by the trea-
sury, thy went ea to cell attention to the absolute seem
sky, mho* this power was exercised, of a *moment being
gpwisd SD the estimates of the ensuing year, giving an
ae-
enM of the exercise of that power by the treasury, to-
gether with the maces which had seemed to require it. The
words at the end of the report were unfortunately
prided. Instead et" works of which parliament has cog-
labilllew," it should be, " has no eagnimacis." The committee
was meet anxious that parliament should have cognisance of
such works; and they recommended that, in carrying out
the present arrangement, in reference to works of which
parliament h ed no cognisance, a statement should be hereafter
made with the estimates of the ensuing year, and that the
signature of the treoury should be annexed to that
statement. In the estimates for the present year,l
three sums were charged cipuently as estimates for future
expenses, which really belonged to the past—thcse taller
the heads of Hong Yong, Monte Video, and New Zee d.
This was contrary to principle. The committee pointed oat
the emir, end recommended that all them eases should
henceforth be met by a sepplesaaatary estimate. If
these recommendations were adopted, every check that was

really retwasiry would b 3 obtaliad b 7 pahlaseat, while,
at the •••• tiwas, • strict appropriadear wader the provisions
of the eppospiatios act, would be ehmentad ; sod is uufore•
seas serpseits the executive craawassett would have that
%tarsomxrlizewy hioicilgsitwtoitia • view le dm, eflick•cy of the

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
three hon. gentlemen who bad preoeded him had clearly sad
correctly stated the difficulty. It wee one which did not
apply to the ordnance estimates only. The right bon. mem-
berfor Northampton said vary truly that there were etses of
mnergency, but that that plea war t be carried to a very
improper extent. No doubt of it. till no one could deny
that there were cues of emergency, in which parties on the
spot must take upon themsAves to incur some expense. He
might instance the invasion of the Cape of Good Hope by the
Kaffirs, or an attack on any of our colonies by a neigh.
boating power. It was absurd to say that the governor
of • oolooy, or the person responsible for the safety of her
Majesty's subjects, was not to take upon him to do that
which was absolutely necessary for the defence of the colony
at the time. He agreed that the come of emergency ought
to be confined to these of real and absolute necessity; but
that such cars would sometimes inevitably occur, no man
could deny. How, then, were they to be met? Heretofore,
when balances were held over from one year to another,
there was no difficulty whatever in paying off *me unfore.
peen expenses. That system had very wisely, and, as con-
ducing more strictly to economy, been put an end to. No
wally was now ever kept over beyond the conclusion of the
financial year. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume.) Well,
that was quits right. (Mr. Home: "flake right.") But
it did carry with it the inconvenience to which allusion had
been made. If an unforeseen expenditure occurred, and
must be defrayed, from what source could it be defrayed
it no money was left in the shape of balances ? There
were only two moles of doing it; either to vote a sum for
unforeseen contingencies, on the same principle am a sum was
annually voted for civil contiagencies, or to pursue the same
enures which wee adopted at present—when application
was made to the treasury to sanction an expenditure for •
certain purpose, after communication with the department,
to say let this emergency be paid for,and lot some other work
be pet of in reference to the three items objected to by the
right Iva. baronet, who had last spoken, he would observe
that when the application was made to the treasury for pay-
meat for those services, it did not appear from the letter ad-
deemed to them that the money had been paid, but the". it
wee • service where it um required to be paid. Tberefore,
in cedar to bring it before the knowledge of sarliament, he
had dithered an item for thine three services to be include
in the estima'ea for this year, in order that peril ,ment
might have • knowledge of what had been done. Subse-
quently, he receiv, d a letter from the Board of Ordnance, re-
sulting trout what bad taken place in the committee; he then
directed that the two items, fur Hong Kong and Monte Video,
where the *apeman bad been paid, should be withdrawn from
the estimate., ma this had been done. The other item re-
en.ined in the estimates, as it would be a re-psyment. But
he entirely ogre.. d in the principle that a past expenditure
ought to be provided for either by • supplementsl vote or •
vote in excess

Sir 3. OR IMAM said he entirely tip,-roved of the present
mode of votiog the estimate, and should be extremely a wry
to return to the practice of voting either army or ordnance
extraordinaries (Hear, hear.) Admitting that there matt
be eztraordidary items, still if the present form of estimate
was strictly adhered to and earned into affect, the house
wool Ibe perfectly cognisant of all the facts. Three esti-
mates were rightly and delib,Tately framed. There
were five columns, the first containing the total esti-
mate for the work ; the second, the sum already
vetted ; tie next, the sum already expended ; the
neat, the amount required for the current year; and
the last, the further amount new-teary for completing the
work. If all these were accurately filled up, whatever
might be the sum voted, and whatever the sum expended,
even thotkeh there might be some anomalies in the postpone-
, ga.nt, acne expenditure sod anodise appropriation of the
sum voted, the facts would be constantly before parliament
Bat let at be ohs reed, everything depended on the fidelity
and accuracy wi h which these colones were filled up. The
Chanerilor of the Exchequer in hi. evidence before the com-
mittee admitted that the mode of preparing the estimates
had failed in giving the information desired, Deceive it ap
peered. that the columns had not beta filled up, or not filled
up with sufficient serum, ; and hence the difficulty of
drawing any accurate eunclusion as to the amounts.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had not
the slightest cbtficulty in souring the right hon, baronet
that hit attention h .d been directed to the matter, inasmuch
us all the estimates were under the notice of the treasury.
It was perfectly true that un'ess all the returns were
accurately Clod up, the information was not worth a farthiog,
If this were dune, a preens knowledge of all the estimates
would be brought manually Were parliament.
Mr. COBDEN observe' the the discussion had given oc-
casion for many sound principles to be enunciated ; and he
thought hon. meoihers would be satisfied that the legislature
had made very considerable progress in the declaration, at
least, of sound principles with regard to our colonial govern-
ment. A mitts* had been brought forward for stopping
the expenditure in the lenian Islands. 'These Wends stood
in au exceptional state to all our other 'colonies and depen-
cies abroad. It was said they had come into our p dsession
I atter •he late war, for political reason", and for the hen. fit
of this country. But on referring to the debates in 1816, he
found that very eminent authovities protected against our
taking possesdoe of these Wands at all. (Hear, hrer ) The
Mantels of Luo.downe. in meshing of this subject, add
. .

But to Trent to the lonian Hands. be did sot lee Of what ate they
were to this country. They were hortlienconie and trepensiv., but of
no o.e ; and here be should adroit to Wortley of the centre's which
hod run to England the protection of thews quee ; the congress
acted towards tin. count'', u • roan dying without Wow, who left
the prowidiig for a ant to one friend, far a doubts, to snotber, and
the pat 'tient of hts debts to a third. They hod, In het, made Eng.
land the midis:ire It utre under a temantent of b le kind • when-
, ewer an unavailable burthen wee to be bush It ma left. to Ws

Lord (then Mr.) Brougham mid :
Then, nabs. why were the sews or eight lonian bland meddled on
tet! Productive of nothine else. they were elms hotly rich in pa-
tronage. There mud be governor; and aceretarles, and onmand-
n 1 rommiwariet. and pat admiral., and the whole ap-
p irate of patronage. And theme were the latent inducements to but-
tern till. country with their protect.on. . _

In proposing to stop this expenditure, the hon. baronet had
understated the amount that would he saved; for in every
such instance the expenditure went much b rind the es-
timate. A sum in the estimates o 70,00 W. or 80.0001. was
sure to amount to 50 per min,, more; therefore
be by stopping .
these works a taring of 150,0001. would probably beeffected.
( War. ) He hoped the commat at woad direct their attention
to the very imp+ rf, e' data IM which the works had been begun.
How was the house to posed against the great waste which
inevitably arose the moment, we commenced fortifications
abro-d ? The house would not remedy it, nor could any
committee of the house. The entinreriog department had
admitted that they were not formed on a prieriVe which was
likely to remedy it. There was no rowdy but to stay their
hands as much as pomade from astlottakiag any more of
these fortifications. Hear, hear.)
The vote was then mimed to.
On the next vote, 49,8591. for the expenses of the scientific
department of the Ordnance,
_ _

Mr. HUMS asked wPat Weise were takes for snoolring
the public witn the ordnance maps at a low rate of charge f
Col. ANSON was understood to say that they were offered
for sale through the Pete-.

Hr. HASTIE eouilained of the trust expense of the ma-
mma survey, and sad that if the present rate wsa continued
it would be likely to cost about 800,0001. Hs hoped that
Bontlaad would soon be allowed to share in the buefi's of
that sentry.
Col. ANSON slid the sea taken this year wu a little
iviiso Shan lost, Wog 6C,7801., ins ead of 60,0001. The