The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-13 00:00:00

proposed. A noble bird had rece-dly spoken of; " the new
and fantosical principles of political economy " but he
doubted whether, even in those happy feudal times to which
such fregiu.nt allusion was now made, such thing, as largo
loans of public money from the public p :rat were
so commoi as some hod. members appeared to suppose ;
(laughter,l he doubted whether the feudal lords advanced
money to their tenants or the peasantry. The word "
sallt-
age," in the records of the neighbouring country, referred to
vary different stet, of things. (Hear.) Now, advances of
loans by toe state were generally positive parties
could give good aceurity for the money required, it was very
seldom that any difficulty would he experienced in obtaining
it. The Roble lord said, that these railroads would afford
security of the mot unexceptionable character. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no wish to depreciate the
value of those undertakings, but wheu he looked at the
advances which had ben made for public works of
various descriptions in Ireland, and at the result, he did
not feel very sanguine as to the value of such
security. Can Its had at cue time been in a very similar
position as regarded internal communication to that occupied
byailways at the present time ; and on looking at the ad-
vances made to them, he found that not one of the advances
had been repaid. He might refer to the Laggan Coosa as an
illustration. Again, a deputation from the proprietors of the
Ulster Canal had waited on him the other day, to represent
that unless the whole of the debt due to the government were
remitted it would be impossibl, for them to proceed. The
whole cost of the canal was 160,0001.; 130,00 W. had been ad-
vanced by the public, and no payment whatever had been
made either of principal or interest. (Hear.) There was also
the case of the Grand Canal. It was not three years since an
act was passed doctoring that whereas a sum of 40,0001., an-
other sum of 38,0001., and other amounts, making altogether
98,0001., had been advanced for that canal; and whereas the
undertaking was utterly unable to pay either principal or in-
terest, upon the receipt of 10,0001., the 90,00 W., with interest,
should be forgiven. (Laughter.) Other advances had been
made to the largo towns and cities of Ireland, with a
similar result. There was at that moment due from the city of
Dublin 24-5,0001., which was considered quite irrecoverable.
Advances hail been made for the widening (as was under-
stood) of the streets of Cork-13,00W. for principal,
10,0001. for interest, but no repayment had been male. The
sum of 51,0001. had been advanced to the city of Limerick,
upon which there was now due a large amount for interest,
but no payments of any kind had been made on account
i
of either principal or nterest. Thu-, if they conoidered
advances made either fur internal communications, or to
the three richest towns and cities in Ireland, the same result
would be found—no repayment of either principal or interest,
and all the advances and the interest sacrificed. A distinction
eoisted with reapect to the advances in Ireland made to
private individual, which hail in most cases been repaid,
but the advances made to private companies and under-
takings of this description had, generally speaking, not been
paid. The advances made to the Dublin and Kingstown
Railway had. however, been all repaid. (Loud cheers from
Lord George Bentinck and ether members sitting near him.)
He thought the noble lord would not be able to discover that
that railway and the railways proposed to be con-
structed all over the country were in • parallel psi-
tion. It was then by no means so clear as the
noble lord had supposed that the security to be afforded by
these railways was of so unexeeptioaal a character. (Hear.)
There was another objection to the measure of the noble
lord, namely, that, considered as a comprehensive scheme,
it would put both good and tad schemes upon • footing of
equality. If the proposed examination of the Board of
Works were to be of any avail, and the board rejected
all those measures which would not afford adequate
security, then the measure of the noble lord would not
amount to muck—(laughter)—but if the board should think
flt to recommend all the schemes, a grievous injustice
would be inflicted on those schemes which were really solid
and good ones. He had been informed that on the best of
the lines now in course of construction, in which the company
had advanced sums sufficient to enable them to borrow under
the terms of their act, the parties had been for some time
borrowing money at 41 or 5 per cent. Upon the announce-
ment of the noble lord, that the other railways would be
able to obtain advances at 31 per cent., the value et
the shares immediately fell one per cent. ; he
referred to the Great Southern and Western.—
He would now trouble the house by readier an extract from
a letter which be had received from a wealthy gentleman in
Dublin, whose opinion was entitled to great respect. This
gentleman said " If the government were to lend money at
31 per cent. fur railway projects, the effect would be to
render the most bankrupt concerns rich, and to put them on
a level with the best lines. If the government should be
insane enough to yield to the cry for assistance for railways
in Ireland without the mo-t stringent conditions, and
the most satisfactory explanatioos, as to the proprie-
tary and the paid up capital, the railroad, of Ire-
land will be sinks of peculation, improvidence, and ruin."
(Hear, hear.) He confessed that when he looked
at the bill he thought some of its provisions appeared
as if they had been introduced expresely to suit cases in
which gentlemen bad been induced to advance their money
on speculations which had not afforded quite such good se-
curity as they expected, and in which such gentlemen now
desired to throw the responsibility on the state. For
instance, the 29th clause enacted, "That all parties holding
securities in these lines might give notice that they should
require the company to pay off all such securities." No
doubt that was a remarkably good provision for those who
held shares—(cheers)—but it was not so well calculated to
ensure employment to destitute persons, or to give security to
the public. Then, again, there was a clause which provided
that in the event of a company abandoning works, those
works should be taken up by the state, who should be liable
for all the debts and engagements of the company. He did
not think such propositions calculated to provide for the em-
ployment of destitute persons in Ireland ; but he admitted
that they might be remarkably beneficial to shareholders.
(Hear.) In fact, a great many of the provisions of the bill were
better calculatxt for the relief of destitute shareholders than
destitute persons. (Cheers.) There had been however, a
much more tempting project before the house than that of the
noble lord. Some time before the introduction of the mea-
sure of the noble lord • meeting was held in Dublin by
shareholders in different Irish railways' who agreed to •
petition, which was subsequently presented to the house,
asking—not for so large an amount of money as the noble
lord sought—but for a much less sum. It was proposed that
no advances should be made to companies, unless they had
expended 20 per cent. of their capital, and that the govern-
ment should advance 30 per cent. when they had expended
501. per cent. of their capital. (Hear.) Thus the plan was,
that for every 501. per cent. of the capital expended on
the works, the government should advance 301. per
cant. The amount asked for by the government at • former
period, in 1839, was 5,000,0001., and he doubted whether
even that could be raised without deranging the money
market. This brought him to the questiou of the amount
of employment to be afforded by the noble lord's measure,
and it was remarkable that this did not exceed that which
was expected from the expenditure of 5,000,0001. He
thought the noble lord must have included in his cal-
culations some railways already constructed. He was led to
this conclusion by the account furnished by the Irish
railway companies to which he had referred, and if
that were the Casa • deduction must be made. He
doubted whether there was as much as 1,600 miles of
railway sanctioned by parliament yet to be constructed.
Without presuming to enter into competition with the hon.
member for Sunderland on this subject, he had done his
best to ascertain the number of persons per mile usually em-
ployed on railways. A person of great experience in such
matters had informed him, that he calculated that not
more than 25 per cent., or 1,000,0001. a yearof the 4,000,0001.
would go for labour • and that the average number of la-
bourers employed per ;tile, for the whole year, would be from
20 to 30 men. He wou take the hihest figure: that would
give five and forty thousldand men for g
the 1,500 miles. If the
calculation were correct, a coasidemble dehesthn met late
made from the number of persons who would be
even through his own =moue. Again,the noble lea
that there were five persons to a family, aMil that
550,000 persons would be supported if 110,000 balsearare
were employed. He thought, however, that the ben. gen-
tleman opposite (lir. Hudson) would bear him at in dat-
ing that there was little probability that, for able-
bodied person employed, four other persons would 'n a
subsistence. Any one who bad ever lived in the vielalty of
railway works mud be aware (that 'the persons einp
upon them were not generally family men, that they be-
loaged to • different clam. Few of them were in the clue
of destitute persons in Ireland. The hon. member for the
University of Dublin had stated the other night that, in a
part of the ceuntry where he had been exceedingly anxious
to obtain labourers for the earthwork of • railroad, it
was found impomible to employ the unskilled ant
destitute persons who were the objects of this measure.
That was the case in other parts of the country. It was
only the other night that an hon. member stated that the
works of the Waterford and Kilkenny Railway had been
executed by the contractors with labourers brought from
distant parts of the country, and not forming a portion of
the destitute persons whom it was desired to relieve. (Hear,
hear.) Early in November lad the Treasury had Witted a
minute connecting employment on railways with the ivlief
of distress, by enabling baronies to pass presentments for
earthworks. Great difficulty, however, had been expe-
rienced in the execution of this scheme, and it had originated,
se he was told, with people upon the spot. He was in-
formed that few railway companies were in a position to
obtain possession of land• but when they were, this diffi-
culty occurred. The baronies were ready enough to pre-
sent; but they connected with their presentment this con-
dition, that, afterthe execution of the line, the whole amount
of the presentment should be defrayed by the companies. The
railway companies, however, objected to this. They argued,
and with some realloo "If we execute with skilled labour,
we can effect the Aped at less time and cost than if we em-
ploy your unskilled erthens, and it is, therefore, unfair to
Make as pay you • imipa sem became we employ your an-
d dle& +Grimm than we should pa if we were left to
ahem our own lahearers." The however, refused
to simmode. flay rafted, even for the ;eke of employing I
their own peer, submit to the loss et the trifling diffusor*
balms,a the met of emention by the empany's labourers,
and the cost of mention by
_thsh, own meaty;
(Hear, hear.) This was a dillealty, there/ we, whisk
not from the ==.:Let with the government,
but with the (Hear, hear.) There
wee ems ihio—deet hem Weenellerd to Limerick, in favour
of
whisk, the firer beroniss thrommt which it pared had
sob pammentesents as the ammant e/ 78,000!. But the
..meat time ents were mots, and the contracts
osowhes. *or (the government,) received a letter from the
seigetary el Os sompiliy, stating that they did not fled it
meal& salt their pamper to employ as labourers the destitute
yawls et the otrostry, seed that they must be permitted to
teeth& weelimen where they pleased. (Haar, hear.)
mos ea soda they of the argument that this measure
was wholated te garnets the employment of the destitute
people et billed. It was notorious, also, that the great
isms dies vellereys yhshodwhether formed or to be
hems& were lass et the east side of that country. This
wee set the past at Ireimi la width the dimities was the

greatest : the peasantry residing on the western onset were
those on whom the calamity pressed with the utmost seve-
rity. How were these people to be employed span railways
c instrectieg in the east and north of Ireland? (Hear, hear.)
If an attempt was made to bring labour from other parts, I
the result would probably be riots and faction fights, assaults
by the peasantry of the locality either on the labourers
brought to Interfere with their employment, or upon the
overseer. and superintendents who brought them. (Cheers.)
He thought then that he had shown that this measure, as a
measure of relief, was utterly worthless. But he knew that
in tun opinion of many Irish members the scheme hail a
peculiar charm. (" Hese," and a laugh.) Now if there
was no other plan before the house—if the government were
doing nothing whatever for the benefit of Ireland, some
weight might attach to this proposal to afford employment
and relief to the sufferings of the people. But if there were
other schemes before them—if there were plans for their con-
sideration which would place money and food more directly
is the hands of those who most needed it—if there were
plain effecting all that this plan proposed, at far less cost to
Onset Britain—then he did say, looking at the sacrifice the
people of this country were called upon to make, that it was
right to be just before we were generous. (Renewed cheers.)
Now, the measure which they hail passed that evening,
would, he believed, have a tendency to afford immediate
assistance to the people of Ireland, whilst it had, at the same
time, a tendency to develop her resources. That Ireland
poewssed resources—that she might do much for her popu-
lation from her own means—wa. proved by a statute which
ha held in his hand. There was a barony in the Queen's
County, in which the relief committee had made a collection
for the poor ; 1761. was received. Of that sum 1301. was ob-
tained from the policemen and small formers, and
only 401. from the owners of land. (Hear, hear.) The
same post which brought this account, brought a statement
from the county Mayo. In that county so far from sub-
scribing to maintain the people, the landlords were pursuing
their tenants with processes to an extent exceeding every-
thi before known. At the Bellies quarter seesions no less
than 6400 processes for rent were entered, 4000 of which
were at the suits of landlords. (Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") The people in that county were said to have
pledged everything they possessed to pay their rents. Whole
tracts of land were unpeopled. Ilence, no doubt, the
thronged quays of Liverpool with labourers landed from the
Sligo steamers. If this system was to be pursued, they
might indeed despair of Ireland; but if, on the other hand,
the course pursued in the Queen's County were followed, at
any rate those who were better off would have the gratifica-
tion of feeling that thousands had been by their means pre-
served from the effects of famine. (Cheering.) Tin hon.
member for Bath had asked him the other night to make
the country acquainted with what, no doubt, they had a
right to know—how it was proposed to meet the expenditure
which the measures of the government would entail. On
an early occasion it would be his (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer's) duty to give an answer to that ques-
tion. (Hoar, hear.) In the meanwhile, however, he
must express his surprise at h acing the inquiry
followed up by the hon. member for Limerick, who wished,
L forsooth, to know " when this profitless expenditure was to
menc." (Ironical cries of " Hear. hear," from the ministe-
rial side.) " Profitless" he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) could not consider it, whilst it had the effect of
saving the lives of those who would otherwise perish from
starvation—(hear, hear)--and he could not help observing
that whilst the bon. member for Limerick was finding fault
with this " profitless expenditure," which was saving the
existence of thousands, he (Mr. S. O'Brien) _proposed no
plan for saving those lives himself! (Loud ministerial
cheers.) But the measures of the government must in his
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opinion go far beyond
the relief of destitution. A change—a men' revolution—in
the state of Ireland had taken place. He (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) believed much good might be derived
from that change, if proper advantage were taken of it. The
failure of the potato crop might, in its ultimate effect, turn
out a blessing to Ireland. Without the potato the
plot of ground ceased to be of its original value for the main-
tenance of the people, and as its value ceased so would cease
that agrarian outrage which followed a desire for its posseseion.
The people would be no longer maintained by the food they
themselves produced, and if advantage were properly taken
of this, the peasant of Ireland might be transformed into a
peaceable labourer, earning the wages of his employer—
than which no change could be effected of gri atcr benefit to
the nation. But this, they must bear in mind, was a dif-
ferent state of things from collecting large masses of Irish
labourers together, and working them in gangs in the con-
struction of railways. That which the Irish bad yet to learn
was eteady employment on the land fsr the daily wages of
their labour. That should be the object to the promotion of
whichtheir legislation shouldbe addressed. A bill prepared by
the government was now before parliament with a view to this I
object, by advancing money to landlords for the
repro
ailed ve-
ment of their estates. If the landlords properly m
themselves of that bill they might hope for the commence-
ment
of a better system. The labour of the Irish would •
then be employed for reproductive purpose*, and in the im-
provement of that land, from the tillage of which hereafter
they were to derive their means of subeistenee. The other 1
measures intended by the government had all the same aim I
and object, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was I
prepared to call on the people of England to contribute to- 1
wards the promotion of that design. When, however, he
read from day to day heartrending accounts of distress given
in the metropolis, when he beard of the stoppage of mills
and manufactories in the great towns of the north, he did
think they ought to be careful not to press unduly upon
the people of this country. lie should be ashamed to ran
the risk of imposing any burden on the people of this
earsagrefte:inmgezutzuw, haincldi ;easti:rat ;soli,: intenot,
efisr, , the ur. -
peae
biß be read a second time this day six months."
The question having been put, •
Mr. H. J. BAILLIE (who sat immediately behind Lord
George Bentinck and next to the Lord Mayor of York) rose,
M a Scotch member, to enter a protest against the appropria-
tion of any public money to the construction of railways in
/Mind unless they were prepared to apprspriate money to
the aseetnuniase of railways in Scotland also. (Hear, hear.)
Is Seethrel they were suffering the same evils min Ireland ;
imt freesseeetker were doing their duty—because they were
Eigiesisege‘of efforts to save the population from
, it essmed they were not to be supported, and they
nothing a any appropriation to them of any portion of
the to
swab. (Hear.) Now, there was no reason
la the weeM why the landlords of Ireland should
not adopt the nos measures for the reliof of their dependents
as the Image bad done in Scotland. With respect to the
measure of thimble lord , he could easily conceive that the Lord
Mayor of Yeah might readily conviree himself that railways
were a univenne pennon for all the ills that flesh was heir to;
but that the adds lard, the member for Lynn, should adopt
such an idea—that he should suppose that a people were to
be fed not by working the land, but by turning their
attention to the construction of railcar, was a circumstance
whisk he owned astonished him. Hear, hear.) If the
of Ireland were to subsist in reland, it must be by
s better cultivation of the land of Ireland; and when
that land was improved and rendered productive, then he
(Mr. Baillie) did not doubt but that railways would 'se con-
structed to meet the requirements of the people. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. STUART entirely agreed in all the compli-
ments the hon. member had paid to the Scotch proprietors.
He depreceted the manner in which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, forgetting his own maxim, had imputed per-
sonal motives of no creditable character to the promoters of
this measure ; whereas no names were more honourably
regarded by the country than were those which appeared on
the back of the bill. The measure was denounced as one
which proposed to invest the government with the character
of moray- enders. What were all the measures which go-
vernment themselves had this year proposed in reference to
Ireland, but, like the present, measures for advancing money
or aiding is advance for the extension of railways, and the
employment of the poor in Ireland ? Nothing could be
' more erroneous than the proposition that the public
money heretofore expended in Ireland had been
unavailingly spent and had not been repaid. As to the
proposition before the house, it would really seem, from the
speeches of the hon. gentleman that what the noble member
for Lynn proposed was, to take four millions of money per
annum direct out of the pockets of the English tax-payer,
whereas all the noble lord proposed was, that in cases where
the proper government officer, responsible to parliament for
the upright and proper performance of his duty, should re-
port particular railways to be eound and beneficial ,
end when constructed calculated to be security foP;:o&eerrt7e.
payment of the advances, that in such cases, and only in such
aces, governmeat should lend its credit for the advance of
money to such projects. The mode of affording this aid
might be either by Exchequer bills, which, if the govene -
meat officer did his duty, the companies would
never require the government to meet, or by debentures.
It was not the first time that government had given assist-
ance to a public work. In the case of the Caledonian Cana,
the public money bad been actually lent for its construction.
(Hear.) He had been surprised and grieved to hear of some
right hon. and bon, gentlemen who intended to oppose this
bill. He would salt them how they could, recollecting
what they had done themselves, stand up and taunt the
noble lord, the member for Lynn, and the hon. member
for Sunderland, with bringing forward a measure to cart
away the receipts of the tax -gatherer. (Hear.) In France
and Belgium, governments had interfered with railway
speculation, and with the greatest advantage. In thole
countries government bad taken the railways into their
own hands, and become railway speculators themselves.
What said the free traders when speaking without party
prejudice ? (Hear.) Mr. Pcirter, in speaking of the Belgian
railways, stated that, although the government hardly
realised interest on the money advanced, yet the general
advantages to the country were so great ea amply to make
up the deficiency. (Hear, hear.) Thus had spoken the
honest free-trader, when uninfluenced by party considers
tions, and when no screw had Men applied to coerce his
opinion. (Loud cheers.) It enured that now, no matter
what might be the opinions has. members, no matter
what might be the merits of the MINN they must shut their
eyes to the light in obedience to the seise minister, led a
great calamity might follow. (Hest, beer.) If they did not
do eo they mad expect • cabin* walls than the !ammo
in Irstusi--ethle thaa the &eats from hunger of its
nellig%tkl emi lattglier.) He emese ehouttl ;7;1.11
lammes at the premeat asomee emelt resignation
Ma MIMI goat and aldose wesbasmateasat. But it was
lama* verb She while ethweil goveveseest, while it was
a Mien belkseelea et • wee. se weipe such topics on
drat Wass (lisse.) lb lespil bas areiben who might be
"lirtirsagthesaW:dretortedallhalt :bajme,ll.7:entd , ar
ha need lid. "pi iEI 7 hise
rsib hon.
'in
of '.*
“pensalledby, ear.
large.") Th...ie
enter, prime
tministerh.,
...had, afterdowaa vote
a large maloty of that house, esma down and
tehl kis supporters if if thm did not rescind that vote
ha would reign. They yielded, and, in doing so' et
*pat very diamszeses results, while they 171.
sans the minister. (Hem. hew-) Again, on the Irish
Coercion bill, um wore asked to pursue the same OD Tee •
they mewed, sad the tight hon. member for Tantßerth

was justly deprived of the government of the em °U./.
Ills noble friend had placed before the hoe a 1111•••
which had all the marks of wralom, considered in the 'es. y'
strut, and all the proofs of wisdom, as derived foam espa
per:ence. Why, then, should there be a question about it?
Because, forsooth, the profits were to go into the pockets of
the Irish members.• It was • mockery to sa so. (Hear,
hear.) Again it was alleged that there were a great many
projects fur Ireland, and that government would be obliged
to pr. fer some, and so cause jealousy. But our whole rail-
way system was one of preferences--the preference of rod
lines and goodarauritv over bad ones. The right hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had also expressed his
fears that there would be created great uneasiness
among railway shareholders. Now, these men were
irenerally speculators, and therefore belonged to a class
for which he (Mr. Stewart) felt very little sympathy. If
the public were served, it mattered little that railway specu-
lators should for some time suffer • little anxiety. (Hear,
hear.) It was acknowledged that the bill would give vasi
employment, but the noble lord at the head of the govern-
ment said that it would only be to the able-bodied Was
that no benefit ? (Hear.) %Vas it no object that the money
was not to be employed, as were the government wages at
present, in giving wages to the halt and the lame ? Would
not room be made for them in lighter occupations, by the
absorption of able-bodied labour on railways? (Hear, hear.)
Besides, did not the wages of each able-bodied man involve
the support of a wife and children, a father, or
perhaps, a brother. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer carried the objection one shade farther
and urged that railway projects would be attracted to the
east come, while the starvation lay all in the west. Why,
fur political economists and free-traders to say that you did
not relieve the condition of the population on the west oust,
whin you created a demand for labour on the east, was an
argument which he could not understand. (Hear, hear.)
Did env one think that the able-bodied men of the west of
Ireland would not travel to the east, or any where else, when
a demand existed for their labour. These arguments were a
mockery. (Loud Protectionist cheers.) The works
now proposed were certain to be useful, they would confer
great blessings in their progress, and he thought that govern-
ment would be clearly justified in pledging the national credit
for their advancement. (Loud Protectionist cheers.)
Mr. F. T. BARING said that the speech of the honorable
and learned member who had just sat down, was no answer
to the able statement of his right hon. friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and he wished that the hon. and learned
member had applied his ability rather to answering the
objection in that statement, than to mere declamation on
the general question. (Hear, hear.) There was one point
which the honourable and learned member had treated
lightly, but to which he (Mr. Baring) perhaps from
former habits was inclined to attach much weight--he
meant the financial bearings of the question. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. member had stated that the plan was to save the
tax payer, but he (Mr. Baring) would require very good
authority for believing that statement. He confessed that
the manner in which that point had been urged inspired
him rather with fear than confidence. lie was not inclined
to underrate the power of this country to meet emergencies,
but here, in addition to all the money already expended or
about to be expended in Ireland, was a proposal to pledge
the country to sixteen millions more, hand over head. It
was to be raised bydoan too, four millions a year for four
years. That was nothing —a mere trifle. (Hear and cheers.)
the hon. member suggested exchequer bills, and was
good enough to tell the house what an exchequer bill
was. (A laugh.) He (Mr. Baring) did not know where the
hon. member had obtained his information. l'erhaps from
the noble lord who had last night expressed his readiness to
undertake the government, and who, from his great statis-
tical knowledge, meet likely aspired to the place which he
(Mr. Baring) had unworthily filled. Hevery much doubted
whether the noble lord would find it so easy to get four
millions of exchequer bills. Those bills were just now
wavering on the borders, and if they threw more into the
market, they might not only raise the interest en the four
millions required, bat on all which were in circulation al-
reedy. (Hear, hear.) If that was the plan of honourable
mmaers opposite, if that was their mode of raising
money, he must confess that he had cot greet con-
fidence in their financial )speculations. (Hear and cheers.)
The hon, and learned member said they were quite sure of
repayment, but when he came to handle the arguments about
security for repayment, the hon. and learned member touched
them very lightly, and glided away to the great advantages
to be derived from public works. He said, that iwen where
loans for public works had not been repaid, still great advan-
tages had accrued ; and attacked the right hon. the Chan
eellor of the Exchequer fur enumerating public work+ in
Ireland which had not been paid for. Why, his right hon.
friend had not denied that government advances might con-
fer great benefits, but had stated these facts merely to show
that loans for public works in Ireland were not
always a secure investment, and when they came
to talk of a loan of sixteen millions, it was
worth while to see what chance there was of its being re-
paid. (Hear, hear.) The Dublin and Kingstown Railway
had been mentioned as an instance in which government-
money had beenlent, and punctually repaid: but was a short
line through the richest district in Ireland to be taken as a
rule for all the rest ? The hon. and learned member said,
that the money was not to be advanced without such
security as would satisfy the railway board. If that was the
cane, it was not likely that the noble lord's plan would come
into extensive operation. (Rear, hear.) But mark how
the system would work. One of the main arguments in its
favour was, that it would employ a large portion of the
population. But where were the best lines—they must go
through the richest portions of the country. Such lines
might get some assistance from the railway board, but there
would be no chance for the more distressed districts of Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) The measure was based principally
on two points from which the honourable and learned
member seemed much inclined to shift. One was
the temporary difficulty in the present distress the
other was permanent advantage to Ireland. His right bon.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken u to the
mode in which the plan proposed to deal with the temporary
difficulty, and be had told them that for every 4,0001. they
advanced,l,oool. only would be expended in the employment
of labour. Had that objection been answered ? The people
of England had a right to ask into whose pockets the other
three would go. The greater part of it would go to the land-
lords in the purchase of land. On the part of the people of
England, he protested against the employment of their capi-
tal to give this advantage to the Irish landlords. His right
Ilion. friend had also shown that the employment would be
tetnin in ace,: reere
railways it waswollgo
nleortruiTittoredui and
the
Bacot destitute districts of the country, it would
tot employment where it was least wanted, and
part of the population which was suffering
die greatest distress would be untouched by the noble lord's
measure. To that objection an answer had been attempted.
It was said, even though this were the case, the taking of a
large number of able-bodied men from their usual occupa-
tions, and employing them in the construction of these rail-
ways, must open a market for the labourers of the western
sad more distressed parts, to fill their places. He admitted
that after a certain time, that which would benefit one part
el Ireland must benefit all the rest : but time was everything
when men were starring ; and so far as immediate relyd
went, the noble lord's plan would be inoperative. Again, as
his right hon. friend had said, railways did not employ the
population of the districts through which they ran. This
the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Stewart) had not
denied., but had met it by falling back on political
oismengs morning that by taking a certain number of men
est of Ow usual labour market, those who were till then
without employment would come in. Again, he said it was
a question of time, and in this case you must curry the em-
ployment to the distant districts, instead of waiting until the
navvies of England and those persons in Ireland who might
be best capable of performing such work were all engaged
ea these railways for the starving people in the west to be
. The general effect of- the reports
.upon the sub-
went to show that the beat way of employing the people
of Ireland was not in large bodies, but by distributing
them, and carrying, if possible, the work to their own
doors that, the expensive plan of the noble lord
would not accomplish. The object of the govern-
ment in the measures they had adopted had been
to find the people, and to a certain extent in that respect they
had succeeded, and that being the case he did not regret the
expenditure incurred for the purpose. He would now call
attention to one part:which, out of doors at all events, would
not hold good. Not only had the bill been described as •
great and comprehensive scheme, bet Mr. Porter had been
quoted to show the advantage of employing the public money
upon public works. It might be admitted to be an advantage
to the government in some cases to give its credit to suck
objects. It was true that in 1839 he had himself voted.
for the late Mr. Drummond's proposal, to advance
money for the promotion of railways in Ireland.
(Cheers from the opposition.) He
for the government he was a member of with more difficulty
than on that occasion, and the difficulties he then felt tubes-
queue consideration bad not removed—(hear)—for he felt
that in England at least it was far better to leave large
undertakings to the exertions of private energy and private
capital. In • country like this he believed that was the
course most suitable to the genius and coutitution of the
people, but on the other hand he admitted that in the case
of railways it was not away, without its inconvenience.
And, with regard to the general system of railways he knew
that other countries had pursued a different course—
s ' course which undoubtedly had its advantages.
But he wanted to show that none of those advan-
tages which other countries had secured to themselves
would result from " this great and comprehensive scheme."
(A laugh.) What was the case in Belgium? Had the
government there advanced money to private speculators?
Not a bit of it. Oa the contrary, the government there had
taken the whole railway communication into their own
hands. Were that scheme proposed for this country he
should have objected to it, but it had its advantages never-
theless. One great convenience of railways in government
hands wee, that you bad • great monopoly that was for
public instead of for private advantaFs. If you charged too
high, the extra profits went hack into the revenue, and, if
too low, the loss of balance to the exchequer went to the
benefit of the people. Thera:was olio another advantage
if you had profitable railways in the hands of the govern-
ment, you might use them to mist in tasking up the loss
from unprofitable ones. You would have the whole net-
work in your hands, and by a combination, a better
might be obtained than when each railway depenrete:
itself. But not one of thou advantages could result from
the noble lord's bill. (Hear, hear.) There was no advan-
tage to be gained from it to the public, as in the came of
Belgium, though care was taken by the railway gentlemen
whom the noble lord had consulted to preserve the monopoly
as secure as it existed is this country. The profitable lines
would consequently go on, and the unprofitable ones would
be ultimately handed to the government. But upen the '
general question—it was not under the pressure of • great
emergency that they alvauld deal with a great and permanent
pablie question. Drat with the emergency first, and 'then
go to the PuMsturat measure. Then what was the ov,e with
the PTA ealtreays ? Did the Trench govocaugoat advance

money to the railway companies, leaving them monopolies
in the end and obtaining nothing in return ? Ile did not
mean ta say that the French was a better ',item than our
own ; but then the:government there got something by what
they did. lie believed, in France, the railways were
:waled to convey the mails, troops, and military
was free of charge—and then, a still more important
nia,„ ter—the lines were all leased to the companies for
a eerie sin number of years, at the end of which they would
fail jet, ,he hands of the public. An hon. friend of his
had said. th,:t had England adopted that course at the be-
ginning, whet. railways were first about to be constructed
here, we shoula be able by that means to pay off the national
debt. No such mode of paying off the national debt how•
ever was provided i'or in the noble lord's bill. (Hear, hear.)
He said, thee this scheme had :lone of the advantages
of the foreign railways, and wee one of the least
wise arrangements, as a permanent one, he had ever heard
suggested. On these grounds, therefore, he considered that
the noble lord's measure was not wisp ted, either to meet
the immediate difficulty, nor as a permanent arrangement
as to railways generally. In saying this, he wished oat to
be understood as desiring to bind the hands the govern-
ment in particular cases, or present their makie:g advances
for the earth-works of railways in particular district s. (Hear,
hear.) This point, he hoped, would receive consideration;
but if they made a great arrangement for these purposes—
if they advanced the capital of the country in this way,
though they might talk of it as a loan—if they took sixteen
millions out of the fund which was destined to employ
the people of England, and transferred it to the employment
of the people of Ireland—let them, at least, take a fair view
of the subject—let them look into it fully, and give some
equivalent advantages to the public in return. (Hear, hear.)
If they followed the policy of foreign governments, let them
follow their prudence also—(Hear)—rand not advance money
in a way that would produce no equivalent advantage imme-
diately In relieving the destitute population of Ireland, and
which for the future would be effectual only in giving strength
to monopoly, without any corresponding benefit to the
country. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. TYRRELL contended that the noble lord's plan
would not only conduce to the immediate but the permanent
benefit of Ireland. With regard to the money difficulty,
the right hon. member for Tamworth iu lilt), when a plan
for assisting the Irish railways was brought forward, held
that there was no fear on that head.
Mr. D. BROWN was not prepared to vote for the measure
of the noble lord, the member for Lynn, because he con-
sidered by that vote he should be declaring his con-
fidence in any administration that might be formed
by him, and his want of confidence in the present
government. Under any circumstances he was not prepared
to support the policy of that noble lord until he should ascer-
tain from him what were his intentions respecting those
matters connected, not only with the social but the political
condition of Ireland. He could not forget that the noble
lord's party bad been for centuries the consistent opponents of
civil and religions liberty—he could not forget that they had
been the consistent supporters of monopoly, both as regarded
the commercial and political interests of the country.
Viscount BERNARD intended to give an honest and in-
dependent vote for thin as for every other measure of which
he approved. (Hear, hear.) If liable to the objections
urged against it he would not vote for it, but he thought
those objections groundless. The railways to which it would
be applied would be subject to • greater scrutiny than at
present, so that instead of encouraging bad speculations,
those only would be assisted which were honestly and fairly
conducted. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Bernard) regarded
the proposition of the noble lord the member for
Lyan, as one calculated to save the lien of the
suffering population of Ireland; and he believed that it
would lay the seeds, not only of the most beneficial results,
but of harmony and peace in that portion of the dominions
of the crown. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CHAPLIN proceeded to address the house. The
hon. member said he should not have risen to address the
house so soon after having become one of its members, but
for the importance of the question no w under its
consideration; and he trusted the short space within which
he should limit his observations, would be a sufficient apology
for his presenting himself to its attention. (Hear.) He had
been struck with the zeal and ability with which the noble
lord the member for Lynn had brought forward • 'measure
which he (Mr. Chaplin) thought put the government mea-
sures, with respect to Ireland, out of all comparison. (Hear.)
He had also noticed the remarkable accuracy as to details
and data which had attended the statement of the noble lord,
and which he (Mr. Chaplin) would say, as a practical man,
were incontrovertible. (Hear, hear.) He fully believed that
iu every particular the cakulations and data of the noble lord
were within bounds, and from the experience he (Mr
Chaplin s had in such affairs,he was sure of success in the pro-
fit/ and likewise in the security of the capital invested. The
same sentiment could not, he thought, be expressed with
reference to the propositions or the demands of the govern-
ment, because their propositions were not only uncertain as
to the produce, but much more so in regard to the security
of the capital. (" Hear, hear" from lord G. Bentinck)
Much had been said in the course of this discussion oa the
subject of commissions for public works. Such commissions
had been aforetime issued in England, and he would in-
stance that carried by the late Sir Henry Parnell, to im-
prove the roads between the metropolis and Holyhead.
Under that commission large sums of public money had been
lavished, and the expenditure continued between Tow-
°ester and Daventry, in the direction of Birmingham, at
the very time the railway was in the course of
being laid down. In the end, the expenditure lavish
as it was, proved uselem, because the railway, when
finished, took all the traffic. (Hear, hear.) It must occur
to the minds of every hon. member, that railways must and
would, under any circumstances, be constructed in Ireland ;
and hence he believed the money proposed to be expended
by the government on the works they contemplated inn Ire
land, would follow the course of the amount expended under
Sir Henry Parnell's commissison. (" Hear, hear " from
Lord G. Bentinck.) Thus far he (Mr. Chaplin) went most
pleasantly with the noble lord, the member for Lynn ; but
here he regretted to be obliged to leave him. (" Hear,
hear," and loud Lighter.) Here he left the noble lord, ex-
cept so far as again to thank him most cordially, as he be.
lieved the country at large would thack him, for the
boldness, the enterprise, the zeal, and the ability
with which he had brought his proposition before
the house and the public. (Hear, hear, hear.) The
ground he (Mr. Chaplin) was now about to take, he
was well aware was a tender one ; but be trusted the house
would not think him unreasonable if he adopted it. He was
averse to interfering with private enterprise, and there-
fore he believed that the government would be able to
carry out a part of the measure of the noble lord vastly more
to the benefit of Ireland and the country at tarp than any
private enterprise. The government, by undertaking works
under this measure, would have an opportunity of employ-
ing those whom they pleased—they could select the districts
most oppressed, and might tura their labourers from rail-
way works to agricultural employment, and then bringthern
back again to railways, when not required in agriculture.
(Hear, hear.) As to fears with respect to the financial
state of the country, he could only remark that the govern-
ment held the key which would control the works to be
undertaken, and so regulate their progress as not to damage
this country, while they would materially benefit Ireland.
In Ireland it was allowed on all sides that the pressure was
great, and it could not be denied that the noble lord, the
member for Lynn, asked for a large expenditure in that
portion of the nation. No man could doubt the efficacy
of these railways in Ireland and their productiveness of
immediate and permanent benefit to Ireland; and he hoped
that the qualifications he had mentioned would
induce the government to adopt the measure of
the noble lord, so far as to commence the works,
and, having so done, he was quite sure that
they would have certain and ample competition both is Eng-
land and Ireland to take the works off their hands, and thus
to develop the resource, which Ireland possessed. All that
would be sacrificed would be the interest on the capital ad-
vanced during the execution of the works—that amount
would be neutralised by the saving of the legal and parlia-
mentary expenses which now attended the obtaining an act
of parliament. 'There were instances of railways constructed
in America at less money than the legal and parliamentary
expenses of procuring a private bill. In conclusion, b.e
hoped the house, when it came to disposie of the details of
the bill of the noble lord the member for Lynn, would
bear in mind that all practical men in the country would
fully and entirely rely on the justice and accuracy of the
noble lord's calculations. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER had heard no contradiction to the
statement of the right bon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
that only 25 per cent. of the money would be expended on
manual labour for the relief of the poor. (Hear, bear.)
Then what description of persona would be employed on the
railways? The proprietors would, of course, select the
able-bodied and the strong. (Hear, bear.) The right hon.
gentleman opposite (Mr. Hudson) would have a great con-
cern in these railways—Gaughter —and there could not be
the slightest doubt but he, looking to the interests
of the 'shareholders, as was his duty, would em-
ploy the best and strongest men he could find.
He understood from gentlemen connected with Ireland that
the labourers there were not able to work from weakness,
and the result would be that experienced and able men
would be sent for to England. (No, no.) He said yes.
(Lugh. Blame had been cast on the landlords
of Inland; but he did not think they deserved it. The hon.
member for Inverness alluded to the differene conduct pur-
sued by the landlords of Scotland; but the circumstances of
the two countries were different; for the landlords of Scot-
land had their estates comparatively unencumbered ; and
the people of that country were more energetic, and more
easily managed. But if the landlords of Ireland neglected
their duty, let the government pass a poor law, and such
other laws, as would compel them to do their duty and
afford relief to the suffering people. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUDSON said he would not attempt to reply to the
personal observations winch had been directed towards him,
feeling it sufficient to ',Mow that he had been actuated by the
purest motives and single-heartednees—the benefit of his
own country and Ireland—in supporting the present mea-
sure. (Hear, ties t.) The gallant admiral said that if the
present measure • was sanctioned, he (Mr. Hudson) would
have a promine.nt part in conducting the undertaking. The
calls on his e; Ate and the responsibility already imposed
him, w.oulre be a imfficieut excuse to him for declining
to embark this undertaking. (Hear, hear ) His advice
and infor nation would ba readily and gratuitously given,
bat as to 'having asingle share, or taking any interest in the
underte.ningbeyond that, he did not mean to have any. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.) Those concerned in seaway specula-
tiOag had beenunoensmonionalycalled a parcel oiSpessisters,
bat he could answer for himself, and he believed sitars,
that they had not entered into railway specalslisms far the
edurposes of gain merely brat from publiemotime. (Laugh-
ter.) He would now addrem himself ta the arguments
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Soule Muse and
the right bon. gentleman the member for Porsemenik The
two main points united by the Chancellor of the Rubsimer,
in contradiction et the statements of the noble toed the
member for Lynn, telated to the amount of money that would
be expended in labour, and the number of men that would

be employed. The right hon. gentleman said that only 25
per cent., or 1,009,0001., would be expended in labour;
but as the companies were to give 1,000,0001. for
every 2,000,0001. advanced by the government, his esti-
mate upon his own showing ought to be at least
1,100,0001. (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. liudion) would show
that, instead of 1,500,0001. out of 6,000,0001. being expended
in labour, 4,000,0001. would be expended. He would take
the North Midland, the average cost of which was 40,0001,
per mile. The purchase of land cost 5,0001. ; the perma-
nent way cost between 5,0001. and 6,0001. ; the parliamen-
tary expenses, 2,0001. What, he would ask, became of the
remaining 27,0001. ? (Hear, hear.) It was expended in
labour. (Hear, hear.) He would next take the York and
North Midland. That cost 23,0001. per mile. The pur- '
chase of laud cost 1,8001. ; the permanent way oat
5,5001. What became of the remaining 15,7001. ? It was
expended in labour. (Cheers.) The Leeds and Bradford
ami 33,0001. ; the parliamentary expenses and permanent
way were 10,0001. ; the purchase of land between 5,0001.
and 6,0001. ; leaving 17,0001. fur work and labour. ( Hear,
hear.) It might be said that was a large consumption of
bricks. The average for bricks did not exceed 600/. per
mile. (Hear, hear.) Who, then, could doubt the statement
of the noble lord, or who not believe that the right hon.
gentleman was grossly misinformed (Hear, hear.) With
regard to the number of men employed, the right hon. gen-
tleman said that not more than from 25 to 30 persons were
employed per mile. Iris hon. friend the member for Lin-
coln (Mr. Collett) could inform him that 130 men per
mile were employed on the Holyhead line. (Hear, hear.)
The right honourable gentleman the member for
Portsmouth, who seemed to have been consulted by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, rook another department, and
discussed the question of raising the money. The right hon.
gentleman said it was with great reluctance he asked for a
vote of 5,000,0001. in 1830. That ought not to be a subject
of wonder at a time when the system of railway enterprise
was not understood, and tested as it was now, end more
particularly when he recollected that he had not a full ex-
chequer, but, on the contrary, had a deficit of 1,400,0001.
(Hear, hear.) What was the state of the bullion in the
Bank of England / There were only 4,000,000/. in it.
(Hear, hear, hear.) Yet the right hon. gentleman who,
under these circumstances, asked for a vote of 5,000,0001.,
now schooled them for asking 16,000,000!., which was to be
laid over a period of four years. (Hear, hear.) The present
question was one on which he felt strongly, and had thought
of for a length of time, and if the present measure was
passed, he was convinced it would be one great
means of raising the social condition of Ireland,
and giving to that distracted country ;peace, contentment,
and happiness. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, told them the security wes
worth nothing. That was a most unfortunate expression,
and he did not think it was a prudent one. (Hear, hear.)
He did not think, whatever the right hon. gentleman
thought of the measure, that he ought to have published on
his authority that the undertaking could not be advantage-
ous to the proprietors. (Hear, hear, hear.) If any part
of the debate was to be regretted, it was that part
of it. He (Mr. Hudson) felt so strongly on the matter, so
perfectly safe did he consider the investment, if assisted in
the manner he proposed, that he would almost pledge his
whole property to the government that, if properly ma-
naged, net one sixpence would be lost. (Hear, hear.) He
qualified that statement by assuming that an indiscriminate
encouragement would not be given to railroads, but a judi-
cious selection would be made. (Hear, hear.) He had no
doubt that then these railroads would be productive of good to
the country and advantageous to the parties interested. ( Hear.)
He had heard no objection to this measure except insecurity.
It was unfair to represent that it was brought forward in
opposition to the government proposals. The object of one
of the measures of the government was to improve the waste
lands of Ireland. To begin at the right end they must first
construct proper roads—(hear, hear)—and with these lines
of railway they would drain the waste lands at half the cost
which would otherwise be involved, (Hear, hear.) He
thought the government would ,have no difficulty in
obtaining the money. Long ago, in connexion with,
different companies, he had raised a capital of 10,000,0001.
in one week;—(hear, hear)—in that case 10 per cent. was
called up, and within six days not 25,0001. (as was under-
stood) was left unpaid. (Hear, hear.) In this country
there were large sums of money which could not be
invested in any but government securities, and there was
always • large sum of money to be applied in that way. It
was his belief that, if the government were to ram the
whole amount at once, the funds would nor vary 1 per cent.
inconsequence. (Hear, hear.) Ireland had bean a con-
stant source of anxiety to this country ; government
after government had gone on cobbling and spending,
and had never attempted to open up the resources
of the country—(cheers from the opposition benches)—they
had now as opportunity of doing so, and he was satisfied
that if the opportunity were embraced, instead of beieg •
source of anxiety to the minister of the day, Ire-
and would be one of his strong arms, and he would be enabled
to reduce the military establishment, and to raise the
condition and character of the whole people. (Cheers.)
None of them knew anything yet anent Ireland; Ist
means of ready access be afforded, and there were very few
members who would not visit that country once or twice
a-year. (Laughter.) He believed that if the measure bad I
been left to be judged of by the members for Ireland—if,
inatead of being legislated upon in this country, that it had
taken place in Dublin—there would have been an unani-
mous expression of *pinion in its favour. (Hear.) What
an argument it would be for the repeal of the union, if they
refused to entertain a question on which tee people of Ireland
were almost unanimous?--(hear)--when, too, they found
men of the greatest practical experience, including his bon.
friend, the member for Salisbury (Mr. Chaplin) declaring
that the measure could be carried out with perfect security
to this country. (Hear. bear.) As regarded the question
of security, he could not help observing that, in any event, I
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have the security of
the rails, which would amount to 5,0001. per mile. (Hear,
hear. and laughter.) He had no hesitation in speaking with
confidence as to the effect on the money market, and as to
the productiveness of the lines. Why there was scarcely a
railway in England at the present time, which, however ex-
pensively it might have been constructed, was not remunera-
tive. (Hear, hear.) The railway system was much better
understood now than some years back ; and they might
depend upon it that, with the knowledge now possessed,
these lines would prove productive. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had spoken of able-bodied men. He could assure
him that on a great many railways there were boys employed
whose age varied from eight to fourteen or fifteen. Even if
the employment were confined to the able-bodied, it would
sandy be a great advantage to lessen the number of those
employed on the public works. The right hon. weir
man objected to the clause giving to parties who bad WA
money the option of receiving it back. He had suggestedl
that because he knew that some parties who had lent money
to railways might be desirous of withdrawing, in case there
were government security, and he thought they should have
the power of taking that course ; that was an advantage,
not to the shareholder, but to the money-lender. The house
looked gravely on the proposal to lend 16,000,0001. ; yet,
not long ago, it bad voted 20,000,000/. to compensate a
certain interest, for which there was no chance of any »tura.
(Hear, hear.) He believed that by this &dean.e erg
would not lose one shilling, and he was disposed
to pledge his personal security for the result.
Be regretted' that the government had felt it to be their
to
oppose the measure ; they might, at least, have ed-
it in a mitigated form ; they might have consented to
a spent of eight millions instead of sixteen. lie agreed with
the right hon. gentleman, the member for Portsmouth (Mr.
Baring), that railway speculations had been well left to
private enterprise, and they only now called upon the go-
vernment to assist private enterprise. He looked first to
securing to the government their outlay, and next, to se-
curing railways for Ireland ; and although he believed the
measure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have been
successful in constructing a few lines, it would still have
left a large district of country without railways. He was
confident that the measure before the house would, if carried,
hapeove the social condition of Ireland—she would be
for it—and it would benefit both countries. Although
government opposed the bill, he thanked the noble lord
apposite (Lord J. Russell) for the courtesy and kindness
with which he had received it. He had no personal interest
in the measure, but nevertheless wished it success ; he was,
however, content with the throne on which he sat. (Much
laughter.)
Mr. GOBLET:RN was not one of those who wished to
depose the right hon. gentleman from his throes (laughter),
and still lees was he anxious to blame him for any part which
he had taken with reference to the measure before the
I house. He admitted that the right bon. gentleman was a
great authority upon railway questions, and he would evil-
tingly bow to him on all points of detail, but he deduced
from his argument the strongest reason for opposing the
measure. The right hon. gentlemen said he had succeeded
'in establishing in England a complete system of
railways, managed with economy and success, and
he told the house that in the execution of these projects
he had no difficulty in raising by voluntary contributions
the enormous sum by which those objects had been attained.
I That furnished a proof that parliament bad committed no
error in trusting these matters to individual exertion,
rather than by enormous loans inducing persons to embark
in them. Of the total amount of money subscribed for per-
fecting railroads in Ireland, three-fourths of the whole sum
, was contributed, not by Irish proprietors, but by gentlemen
of the moneyed interest in England, who were as ready to
embark their capital in Irish as in English railroads.
(Hear, hear.) He thought it was unfortunate that such ,
a discussion should have taken place, as it was impossible to
avoid stating circumstances which might throw doubt on the
success of railways in Ireland—but those only were respon-
sible for the consequences who brought forward such • mea •
sure without considering the effect which it must have on
the money market of this country, and without its having
received that attention which ought to have been given to a
bill of so much importance. (Hear, hear.) In a pecuniary
point of view it was a question of no trifling character.
(Hem, hear.) The bill called for an advance of sixteen
millions of money ; but who could suppose that even such
an enormous expenditure would relieve this country from
the obligation imposed upon us of providing for the
necessitous and stervizoLoglation of Ireland? (Hear, hear )
Deal with it as they , the question yet remained what
would they do with t part of the population of Ireland
who were beyond the districts through which the railways
were to pins, or who might be incapacitated by age or infir-
mity ? With respect to these, they must of necessity recur
to the measures the government had called on them to adopt,
thus incurring • tremendous expense to be added to the ex-
penditure
of sixteen millions which this bill would authorise.
And when the right hon. gentleman who last spoke taunted I
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer with having been ready
in 1839 to lend five millions towards the construction of rail-
ways under very different circumstances at a time
when there was a deficiency of a million and a half
in the public revenue, it must not be forgotten that
the financial embarrassment with which they would soon
have
theea would in all probability be infinitely greater
than financial embarrassment of 1639. It was argua,n,

by the right hon.legetnotltezanuituheat those who
however,
He believed that il4ltwedTrtLinsensib
recd
t where they wera gradually and consider.
:a one stiphpisre. value of railways more t'llanllnwUll'
could not fail to confer the
rattly introduced, and were nobtututnhdeurl.y.istinod, uhenntlt,uuralwlasy
grfortestinbetoneefixtsit ‘alCiuthnetrYy,
se enterprise, and that if we did,
anent to which there would be
h gentleman said that
this—that we should n.aver "'tat° from the priootele of
son-interference with price
we should produce emharras.
no limits. (Hear.) The righ.'
the whole success of reassess ds tsended on the economy of
their management, and the way in which they were worked.
Now if one position was more true thi`ts another, it was that
it was dearer to deal with borrowed main ytie
with your
own. And what were the probabilitiesoft Oas of the
lines in Ireland ? The Kingstown Mawr-7 ;two been owe-
fairer criterion of the profit which might be esiPti, led from the
tinned ; but let him cite the case of a line whi 'h presented a
working of these schemes. The line from Beds. to to pron.
heda ran through a flourishing country, and het connected
with it every clement of success. The shares* its that line
were 751. shares, on which 701. had been paid. Et. 'w what
did these shares realise in the money marks*. Oaly
581. (Hear, hear.) The honourable and la trued
member fur Newark had been very anxious to ink, 'rest
on the house the difference between lending money .'red
emending money, and he had laid it dawn as a principle& it
money burrowed by the state was not the money of the stint •
He (Mr. Goulburn) would set enter into a discussion of in&
niceties of that distinction. The hon. and learned memlsr
had referred to America, and had applauded the system of
the United States in borrowing money for the construction
of railways. If the hon. member meant to say that this
country was to pursue with respect to these railways the
example set them by the United S:atisi then
indeed he could understand what he meatst by
the distinction that " the money borrowed by the state
was not the money of the state." (" Hear, hear," and mach
laughter.) But he hoped the hon. member and his friends
did not go quite so fur as that. (" Hear, hear," and re-
newed lanchter.) Nothing, however, was more clear to him
than that if they borrowed money, intending to repay it, they
must impose on the public an annual charge for that purpose,
at least until such time as the railways proved productive.
He (Mr. Goulburn), however, must confess that the san-
guine anticipations of the right hon. gentleman as to the
success of the railways had been not a little damped in their
effect on him by his after observation. that at the end of 30
years, if the railways were unprofitable, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer could sell the rails. (Shouts of
laughter.) To suggest to the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to become a dealer In old iron as a
means of compensating the country for its leases by this
plan was certainly an imagination worthy the right bon.
gentleman. Of all things, it was, in his opinion, molt dan-
gerous that this country should engage in a scheme of this
sort, and should embark systematically in a plan of raising
money by loan in time of peace. Once begin the system of
superseding individual energy and enterprise—once com-
mence lending loans fur railways, and they might be called
on to do the same thing in cases equally specious and promis-
ing—equal advantages, which would bring them, in the
end, to this, that they would be always employing their
surplus revenue in private speculation. As to the
relief of Irish distress by this measure, he thought they
would all agree that the right hon. gentleman had failed in
showing that any relief would be produced. The very' sys-
tem under which the railways were to be assisted. precluded
the possibility of relief being afforded. Those railways were
to be assisted which promised the best chance of return.
Inquiries were, of course, to be made as to that point. Com-
parisons had to be instituted. The very time occupied in
these investigations, wou d preclude the possibility of any
immediate relief being extended. On these grounds, there-
fore, he gave his opposition to this bill, and should vote for
the amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
On the motion of Cul. CONOLLY the debate was adjourned
till Monday.

NAVIGATION LAWS.
On the question being put, nominating the following hon.
gentlemen on the select committee on the Navigation Laws :
Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. Ilume, Sir
Robert Peel, Mr. Milner Gibson, Mr. Hutt, S.r George
Clerk, Mr. Brownrigg, Mr. Bright, Mr. M'Carthy, Viscount
Sandon, Mr. Brown, Mr. Lyall, Mr. Mitchel, and Mr.
Thomas Baring,
Mr. WAWN objected to some of these names.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not see that it was an unfair

committee.
Major BERESFORD said that he had no doubt of the
desire of the noble lord to have a fair committee, but he
could not help saying, that when he came to read the names
of the hon. gentlemen proposed to act on it, he could not
conceive that it was eitber just, fair, or honest.
Mr. HUTT said that hon. gentlemen seemed to think that
every member who voted for free trade must be in favour of
the total abrogation of the navigation laws.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCE said that he was sure that
his noble friend (Lord John Russell) meant nothing more
than to give a fair committee to those intere.ted in shipping.
But it appeared to him that out of fifteen members eleven
voted for an inquiry into the navigation laws.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the noble lord's objec-
tion woo that those who voted for an inquiry into the naviga-
tion laws were desirous of a total abrogation of those laws.
His opinion was quite the reverse. On this committee there
were four who certainly would uphold the navigation laws,
no matter what they may he—(laughter)—there were four
more who made up their minds that they ought to be en-
tirely repealed, and there were seven whose decision it would
be difficult to prophecy. (Laughter.)
Mr. FERRAN]) said that, after what the noble lord had
admitted about the composition of this committee, ho re-
quested that nothing more might be said to him (Mr. Fer-
rand) as to packed committees.
After a few words from Lord J. MANNERS,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed
that the nomination should be postponed until Mondm ,
by which time some progress towards a proper understanding
might be made.
This suggestion having been adopted, the nomination of
the committee was postponed until Monday.
The house adjourned at half-past 12 until Monday.

7: he 461:13effSg.

MAILS.

----•
The nulls for Vigo, Oporto, Lisbon, Madeira, Cadis, and Gibraltar.
will be made up on the morning of the 17th February.
The Wee India mails, including thew for Mexico, Hondo., and
the Havannah, will be made up on the morning of the 17th February.
The overland rends for Gibraltar, Malta, Greene, the lonian blends,
Egrpt, Aden, Ceylon, India, Hong-Kong, and Cliinn, via Southworitott,
la be made up on the morning of the 2,th of February.
The overland closed mails, via Marneillee, to the Mediterranean.
Egypt, Aden, Ceylon, India, Hong Kong, the., will be made up out the
evenaut of the 211th February.
The mails for New Routh Wales, Van Diemen's Land, and New
Zealand toll be made up on the evening of the let March.
The mails for British North Amerka, Bermuda, and the Ceded
States, will be made up on the evening of the and March.
The malls for the Brasile, the River Plate. Manta Video, Perm.-
buco, Bahia. Madeira, and Buenos Ayres, will be made op on the
evening of the Ith March.

TO CORRESPONDENTS.
An Old Subieribor .rill find that the articles to which he alludes we
invariably ted in oar prices current of produce.
Advertremequo nts intended for The Express, Londonewillnit pager.
most be at the Mee by Two o'clock on the day of pabileatice.

111011 WATEI AT LONDON-BRIDGE.
Tato Do —llordar. 0 WA. put 0 ; Altera*" 21 min. put O.
To.blowtow —Mania& 49 dz. pot 0; Alterman, 16 min. pia 1.

LONDON, SATURDAY, FEB. 13.
IN the House of Lords yesterday Lord Mon-
EAOLE, on moving for returns relative to the division
of baronies in Ireland, expressed a hope that if any
bill came before their lordship', involving a departure
from the electoral division, or Duke of Welling-
ton's clause, as it was termed, their lordships would
give it their most attentive consideration. Lord
BaorGitsu highly approved of the clause referred
to by the noble lord, and thought it intolerable that any
question of privilege ariaing out of a money clause should
intervene to prevent their lordships discussing it on
its merits. The Marquis of LANsoOWNE, on behalf
of the Dean of Manchester, read a letter from that
reverend gentleman, explanatory of circumstances
arising out of the debate on the presentation of the
petition of the churchwardens of Manchester, pre-
sented on a former day, on the subject of the Man-
chester parochial funds. Lords STANLEY, BRoUCHAM.
and CAMPBELL concurred in opinion that the subject
was one worthy of consideration by a committee.
The Brewing from Sugar Bill was read a first time.
In the House of Commons, Lord PALMER:no:if, in
answer to a question from Mr. ROEBUCK, As to the
communication of early copies of printed documents
to the daily journala, said, those to which the hoa.
member referred, respecting the Spanish merrier.
were the house on Thursday, and that it
was usually amatter of courtesy that copies should
be sent to what were called the ordinary channels of
communication. The house then proceeded to the
order of the day for the second reading of the Rea-
ways (Ireland) Bill, the speakers in favour of the
motion being Mr. STUART, Sir JOHN TYRRELL,
Lord BERNARD, Mr. CHAPLIN, and Mr. HUDSON;
those spinet, the Crtaxamo• of the Excemarnl.
Mr. H. J. BAILLIE, Mr. F. BARING, Mr. D. Baowslti
Sir CHARLES NAPIER, and Mr. GouLtioax, the debate
standing adjourned until Monday next. The select
committee on the navigation laws was appointed.

all i
THE great BENTINCIE motion threatens after to
ran to seed, or into mere interminable talk, without
unseating ministers, or even putting their existemos
in danger. The Part. party, which is entrenchiuin.%
itself in its, suprnior abilities for finance, and wh
certainly has the knack of withdrawing ii, time from
fuinucisAi scrapes, could not have countenanced the
sixten million freak of Yo England, even thong
t.lre Lord Mayor of York a .. • godfather for ins
wisdom.
‘ The Irish members are evidently preparing le l"