The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-24 00:00:00

~t F

oese--.--------
begged.to ask the government if it would not be desirable to
'lesbian' • particular board in London to which applications
from the colonies might be made, and thus abetter system
of management be enured? He was confident that this
would effect an enormous saving of life and property, and be
prodective of the greatest benefit to the commerce of the
JiInABOUCHERE said the question was far too im-
portant to be incidentally discussed in a mare anae-
mia"' of this kind. The whole management of the beht-
keine, required revision and alteration, and with that
view he had introduced a bill, which, however, he had not
bad a °hence of proceeding with during the present seesion.
With respect to the colonial lighthouses, he had no difficulty
in stating that, in conjunction with his noble friend the First
Lord of the Admiralty, he would, during the recess, give his
best consideration to the subject, and endeavour to devise a
remedy for the evils attending their management.
Mr. 0. h. ROBINSON bore big testimony as to the diffi-
culties the colonies experienced from the want of a distinct
department to whom applications on the subject of thaw
lighthouses could be addressed.
Mr. DRUMMOND (Surrey) thought that Alpena' did
not so much arise from the mismanagement of lighthouses as
was supposed. There was another more important point on
which the right hon. gentleman the President of the B ard
of Trade would do well to legislate, and that wee the prac-
tice of building ships for the purpose of their being wrecked.d
The conversation here dropped, and the hones resolve
itself in a committee of
SUPPLY.
Mr. BERNAL (in the chair) put the next vote of a sum
'of 3,0001. towards completing the amount necessary to
defray the expenses of the Foundling Hospital, Dublin.
Dr. BOWRING complained that in Ireland the public
institutions were supported by parliamentary grants, wnile
in this country they depended upon the voluntary contribu-
tions of benevolent individuals. The system in Iceland was
pernicious to the institutions themselves. The present vote
was meet objectionable, as it encouraged the aban-
donment of children and the disregard of maternal duties.
Twenty years ego a select committee hod recommended that
the vote should lee discontinued and he hoped the govern
scent would give a re-arsuranu that this should be done.
Col. SIBTHORP supported the vote, and thought as it
was to maintain unprotected foundlings it ought to be rather
increased than dinsiniehed. He was surprised that any man
with a sense of hum unity or good feeling should object to it.
' Mr. HUME said in 1829 the select committee on the Irish
estimates had unanimously recommended that this vote
should be abolished. In that opinion he concurred. On the
subject of these Irish estimates generally he would only say
one word. They required reconsideration, inasmuch as they
had been granted originally at a time when there was no
such thing es a poor law in Ireland, and they were under
the treaty of Union to continue for 20 years. They had
gone on. however, for 28 years beyond the time specified
and as Ireland had now a poor law, it was a question whether
in respect of these charities she ought not to be put on the
game footing as Ragland. At all events, if the grants were
to be continued, they ought to be limited to the amount
raised in each cone by private subscriptions.
Mr. PARKER said in all those grants there had been
made a gradual reduction. In 183 t, for this eh tree the vide
taken was 27,e241. ; the present vote was only in all 4,0001. ;
thus showing a considerable reduction.
After a few words from Col. Dentin, the vote was agreed
to, as was also 6,9751. to eomplete the sum necessary to de-
fray the expellee of the House of Industry, Dublin.
The next vote was 1,0001. for the Female Orphan House,
Dublin.
Mr. B. OSBORNE objected is the vote en the ground
chat the (11161 was for protestant orphans to the exclusion
of the Roman catholice.
Mr. HUME said, if that was the csse, he should, unless
the government gave some promise that the system should
be charged, o.iject to the vote altogether.
eel. SIBTHORP said he ob.erred amongst these Irish
estimett s • vote to Emily Suhthorp, a retire d matron of Medi-
cal Hospital. (Laughter.) Now, he begged totally to disclaim
any reletionship with that lady. (Loud laughter.)
Lord MORPETH said nob ody could object more than he
did to exclusive establishments. (Hear, hear.) He thought
that public money voted ought to ne for the benefit of the
public at large. With respect to this vote, however, it was
in aid of a large contribution raised by protestant venom'
in Ireland.
Mr. OSBORNE said the select committee had recom-
mended that it should be reduced one-half.
Atter a conversation, in which Mr. Hume, Mr. G. A.
Hamilton, and Mr. Keogh took part,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said it was finpaaible to defend
an institatim which was of an exclusive character, and he,
therefore, thought it right tbet some inquiry should be
made with respect to this institution.
Mr. MUN IZ mid that if the government would not give
an assurance that for the future both religious sects should
be admitted, he would divide the committee against the vote.
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY was understood
to say that the rules might be so altered as to admit both
sects.
Loyd J. RUSSELL did not think that possible, but he
would take care that before next year the matter was fully
inquired into and fairly considered.
Atter a few words from Sir J. 'ryrell, Mr. Goulburn,
Mr. Drummond, and Mr. Wawa, the vote was agreed to, as
were the following
2,5001, to defray the expenses of .he Westmorland Lock
Hospital. Dublin.
1,0001., fur the Lying-in Hospital, Dublin.
1,5001., for Dr. Stevens's Hospital, Dublin.
8001., for the House of Recovery and Fever Hospital,'
Cork-street, Dublin.
5001., for the Hospital for Incurables, Dublin,
On the next vote of 27,8371., to complete the sum neces-
sary to defray the expense of non-conforming, seceding, and
protestant dissenting ministers in Ireland, being put,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD raw to oppose this vote.
The object of these grants was to maintain power
over the presbyteriene of Ulster ; and he considered
them to be impolitic+, unjust, and injurious to
the true interest of religion. In his judgment, all
attempts to make the ministers of religion subservient to
the state were injurious to the cum of religion. Though
some of the presbyterian body might desire these grants
there was a large and influential class who considered that
they ought not ;o be made by parliament or accepted by
their clergy, and, in 1833, two memorials to that effect had
been addressed to the government—ose from Belfast, and
the other from Londonderry. •He was a friend to religious
liberty and an enemy to all state provisions for the purposis
of religion. On these grounds he objected to the present
vote, and would now move as an amendment that it be
reduced to the sum of 3661., being the amount paid to the
fund for supporting the vrldows and orphans of the ministers
of the Synod of Ulster.
Mr. K BOOR did not rise to support the proposition of the
hon. member for Rochdale, but to offer a few observations
en the Regium Donum, aid on behalf of his hon. friend the
member fir 'fippuery to bring under notioe the cue of the
preebyterien minister of Clonniel. It appeared that the
amount pa. able from these grants to that gentleman on the
29th S ptember last had not been paid, but had been stopped
by order ..1 her Majesty's government. Now, no one would
dispute the proposition, that if there wee to be any state pro-
vision it ought not to be encumbered with factious restric-
tions or improper interference on the part of the government.
In this care the facts were these s—Every presbyterian minis-
ter was required, at the beginning of every year, to fill -up a
certificate setting forth that his congregation comprised more
than 12 families, or 50 persons in all, and that he
received from them voluntary contributions to the
amount of 361. per annum, before be could receive
any per ion of the government grant. At the commtnce.
meat of 111-17 this gentleman, Mr. Gill, filled up the certifi-
cate ae usual, and it was sent to Dublin Castle duly vouched,
and in July following he received that quarter's proportion
of the Revues Donum. Tee quarter ending 29. h Sept. was,
however, not paid him by the agent of the government, Dr.
Cooke, Who stated he had received directions to stop it. Now
he (Mr. Keogh) apprehended if Mr. 0.11 had been guilty of
any omission, it would have been more courteous on the part
of the Alcor. of the government to hove . pprised him ot it,
then if he was contumacious to have stopped his proportiou
ef the Regium Doman. Ile slowed the matte to rest for •
month or two, and then, on application to tore
government
officer, was informed that he ought to apply elsewhere. That
he must have complied with nil the requis te formalities was
evident,from his having received the first quarter's payment.
Ti e cmgregatien were perhaps more inceneed e an himself.
A deputation waited on Mr.Redington, who said that neither
he nor the eovernment knew anything about it. Subset-
sequently, in a letter dated 31st December, Mr. Redington
tout new erouud,and widths refus a of the Regium Thrium
was owing to the certificate not sawing the number of fami-
lies in his congregation, in cemplience with a return called
fin try parliament. But it turned out afterwards that no
such return had been called for ; and this was admitted in
the corresponden-e which had been published by order of
the house. Hence, the clergyman. had been most
unjustly kept out of his stipend, on ass allege d ground which
had no founds ion. The certificate did state that the con-
gregation hen consisted throughout the year, "of more than
twelve resident presbyterian writhes, or more then fifty re-
•i !ent pr et.yte, van individual.," rod this was pre cheat in ;
cold sanity with the form sent out by the government. The i
whole affair appeared to hove arisen from the officious and
impertinent interference of a Mr. Matthews, a subordinate
Alter of the Irish secretary, who bad taken upon himself to
obtain certain returns, which were not slued for by any
authority. When this was dieeovered, Mr. Rediugten
ought to have mode the amende honorable ; but instead of
doing so, be supported the unauthorised demand of Mr.
Matthews for the precise number of families in the congre-
potion. A. the case stood, the bounty remained unpaid, the
narrespondenee having passed so long ago as December and
January last • and it was now contended by the
nt 'that they had the power at any
one atop the stipend, thus placing the presby-
Iselin body in a state of the utmost eerviiity, a state wholly
at variance with the conditions oa whch the region donum
WS origi, aLy granted. The enforcement of such a prin.
ed*e would be most fatal to the independence of the church.
The congregation had been continued on the estimates, a
woof that the requisite conditions had been complied with;
why then hod the payment been withheld?
Mr. OSBORNE said he should take the presbyterian
'ministers at their word, and sate with the hon. member
for Rochdale. If these ministers did not want the Regium
Donum—
Mr. CRAWFORD said he had not stated so. Many
I numbers of he bedy might" be oppo-ed to receiving the
ananey, hot-they w. re not oppOsed to it collectively.
• Mr. OSBORNE said he could eertify to the great res-
egeglebility of the Clonmsl congregation aid their minister.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE regretted th..t the hon. and
lamed member bad brought thus subject before the house.
It hod recenaly been brought under the notice of the general
assembly at Belfast, who had appointed a cesimittee to com-
municate with the government ; and their represeritat,ons
vio...td be received with tht greatest resp• ct, an they alw aye
ral been, by the governmei.t. No one who knew Mr. Re.
dington vrould accuse him of want of courtesy in his official

amendment with-
on the principle
money witho t

by giving rise to numerous appeals, bat would support the
woad reading.
Mr. C. BULLER said the difficulties apprehended might
ujuet easily arise under the old
migrations ofWhilst dis-
posed to guard against extensive Irish
paupers te Liverpool and Manchester, he felt it right
to give Irish pipette the same ri. hts of settlement and
appeal as were enjoyed is this country. At present, paupers
were sent to Ireland without any statement ea to whence
they had been removed or the grounds of removal ' • time de-
priving the Irish parishes of the means of appeal. Bo far as
the bill went to remedy this defect, be approved of it, and
hoped the house would give it a second leading, leaving the
clauses to be modified in committee.
Mr. GROGAN thought some immure of the kind im.
peratively necessary.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the bill would
dently require government amendments in committee, and
p,inted out several defective provisions.
S.r H. WILLOUGHBY supported the bill.
Mr. THORNELY said that Liverpool had been taxed last
year to the amount of 10,0001. for Irish paupers. lie should
divide against the bill.
After • conversation, in which Mr. Hume, Mr. M. J.
O'Connell, Mr. Roynolds, Sir G. Grey, Mr. F. &rope, Col.
Dunne, Sir It Ferguson, Mr. Clements Capt. Harris, Mr.
Henley, Mr. Thornily, Sir 1). Norreys, and the Attorney-
General took part, the bill was read a second time.
The house adjourned at a quarter-past two o'clock.

.
.
distress, In iosiated on that Mr. Beate It became news- , ........ —_ , _ _.... __ _ . /NM M bow any extra service/I
eery to know the peed niter number of families in each con- could warrant the pay
grraggment of 2,5001. d.
ation. This information had been generally fur- Mr. WOOD would support the vote on the undershot ing
inked, with the exception of • few congregations; that government would not again make a grant withogt the
se that Mr. Gill was only asked •o furnish the knowledge of parliament.
same return as was received from about 480 congregations. Col. DUNNE said that WAS actuated by no personal
He had alleged as a reason for non-compliance with Mr feelings towards Sir C. Tre het
Matthews's application, tat it was non-official ; but when Mr. P. SCROPE was satisfied of the zest, ability, and in-
it was made by Mr. Redington he still refused the inform• dustry of Sir C. Trevelyen ; but he must protest against the
tims. Afterwards he said be had not the means of furnish- system adopud by him in Ireland.
lug it ; hut why could he not do it, u well to the other 480 Mr. GOULBUBN w sorry that there had been what
clergymen ? In his certificate of the present year he had ae- appeared to him to be as tudied concealment in making this
bully returned the numbers, under an order from the gene- grant. lie should mark his disapproval of that by his vote on
nu assembly. Whenever he chose to make the same return this occasion.
for 1847 as he bad dune for 1848 Ms stipend would be paid; . Lord G. BENTINCK did not think it displayed much
and there was no hardship in requiring from him the same ability on the part of Sir C. Trevelyan to be getting cor•
return as from other clergymen. The case was now in the from Deptford at 181. per ton, when it could be got in Cork
bands of the general assembly, with whom it would most at 141.
properly be left. Mr. MONSELL said that if it was bought in Cork it would
Mr. H. HERBERT said the hon. baronet had overlooked instantly cause the Mkt to rise there.
the main ground of complaint—the manner in which the Lord G. BENTINCK said thatoould not be, because for
return was originally required, on the dictum of a clerk in every ton that was net from Deptford to Cork three tons
Dublin Castle. Had the return been asked in a proper were brought from Cork to the Thane s.
manner, Mr. Gill would have had no objection whatever to Mr. REYNOLDS disapproved of the principle of grant-
furnish it. The presbyterian congregations generally had • ink money without the consent of pert aiaent. The coin-
right to complain of the language used in one of his letters plaint in Ireland was that those who performed least service
by Mr. Matthews, who cherged the presbyterians with not tot most mosey. 'the mist ortune ot Ireland was this, ht
pitying at the rate of a farthing a head to their ministers. Oven time immemorial English quack doctors had been try.
The beat thing for the government to do would be to pay the inc heir nostrums upon her.
stipend, and the returns would no doubt be made properly Mr. BROTH ERTON would support the vote.
in future. Mr. OSBORNE then moved th,st the vote of 20,0001. be
Sir W. SOMERVILLE regretted that Mr. Gill bad not reduced by 4,0151.
thought it consistent with his duty to snake, in the first in- The committee then divided—For the amendment 14
stance, a return, which be now expensed his willingness to Against it
furnish. Mr. B. OSBORNE ranted to know what vies the meau-
Sir R. FERGUSON testified to the respectability of Mr. ing of the item in this estimate for the travelling expenses of
0111, and re gretted thot the ease had been brought forward. the King of the Belgians. Surely the King co the Belgians
He also condemned the style of Sir. Matthews's letters. No when he wasesked on a visit to her Majoty might at least
they apprehended any such Mienbody was morejealoue of governmen: interference than the pay his fare. Then there was au ism fur ornament., and
presbyterians; and had s- what not, for the Master of the Ceremonies. Who was the
' rence in this cave, they would have presented a very different Master of the Ceremonies ?
' memorial to government Iron that which had been re- Mr. PARKER said that these charges were of immemo.
ceived. He denied that this was • politic.' grant at all, as vial usage. The only differeuce was that formerly they had
had been alleged by the hon. member for Rochdale ; the been paid out of the civil list.
well known character of Dr. Cooke, the government agent, Mr. MUNTZ observed that the fact was thatour flnances
was a sufficient safeguard against that. The pre sbyterians were so uncommonly flourishing that he only wondered we
were notetissenters, but a branch of the established church gins,ot prev all the o.her exp. uses of the King of thc Bel-
ot Scotland. and of the Grand Duke Constantine, and the Duke
Mr. KERSHAW said he knew Dr. Cooke and many of of Leiningen,' and of all the other foreign visitors here,
the Irish presbyterians, and was astonished to fled that they whose travelling expenses we were se singularly celled upon
only subscribed about a farthing a week per head to the sup- to liquidate.
port ot their miuisters. Ile believed the exact sum was 41 Mr. B. OSBORNE would take th •• =SW, r that the items
farthings per annum. What could he thought of a system he had specified had formerly come out of the civil list, she
like the regium donum, which led to such results The body could get no better reply. But there was an item of 4001.
of independent+, to which he belonged, repudiated the prin. for presents to the Ruler of Abyssinia. Who was the Roler
ciple of government support, and cheerfully paid their min- of Abyssinia, and what on earth had we got to do with rim ?
users from 1001. to 600/. per annum. While there miserable Surely he was not also an old recioient from the civil lid?
greats were relied on by congregations for the support of Viscount PALMERSTON said there was acme good pro-
their ministers, the proper spirit ot religion would never hability of • considerable trade with Abyesinia, and these
prevail amongst them. It any body in Ireland ought to be preuuts bad been thought expedient. (A Leigh.)
endowed it was the Roman cathelics; but he AS a Mr. B. OSBORNE SAW here a beautiful opening, not for
voluntary, should oppose such endowment. Let any a coneiderable trade with Abyminia, but for another con-
ministry propene such an endowment, and there would be a iderable job, like that of Lsbuan.
feeling aroused which would destroy a ministry much The vote was then, agreed to, as wag a vote of 22,0001.,
stronger than the present one, or a., that was likely to be to dein), the remaining charges„in the commissariat depart-
formed for some years. (Hear, hear.) ment.
The committee then divided—Fur the amendment 13 The CIiANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then pro-
Against it
The vote was then agreed to. mates, being for the relief of Irish and Scotch distress, up to
On the next vote, 4,476/. for the conoordatuen fund, and
the present harvest, by repeating his former statement act
other charities and eillowances in Ireland, what bad been already done in this respect. Li the first nix
hie. CLEMENTS beeped that the two beards which now months of the present year no less • sum than 867,0001. had
existed would he consolidated. been raised in the shape of poor rate, throughout Ireland ;
hut the sun so collected by no means represented in the more
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that one of the boards was
severely: distressed districts the amount required for the
only temporary.
After a conversation, the vote was agreed to. relief of the distress which had prevailed with such peculiar
On the motion being put tor a vote of 3,4001., for the ex-intensity under recent dispensations of Providence. To
penises rat a commiesion Inc the digest of the criminal law, have raised the amount requisite for this purpose in thou
Col. SIBTHORP made some remarks, in which he stated districts would have been little short, if at all, of confisen-
that the commission had been for many years very expeneive, ion. The assistance of parliament therefore ha. been in-
hat
being of ail practical utility. He thought they yoked, and the appeal hid been ea, at generously met
ought to have • statement t.f the real cost of the commission, The whole amount expended by the British Aucecietion,
eised by voluntary contributions, was 236,5001.; of that sum
as well as the reasons why it should be continued. He
thought the commission • grove piece of extravagance, and a 43,0001. was Isio out in rations for grown-up persons,
fraud upon the public. But he supposed that it was of no 80,0001. for rations for children, and about 12,0001. for To.-
us to cnirplain, to the whole co
anion wes a ministerial lething. The preseet vote of 132,0001. was for the purpose
job, a ministerial trick, and a ministerial humbag. of continuing the operations of that association during the LONDON, THURSDAY, AUG. 24.
"Sir G. GREY said he hoped this was the last time that a twee months that preceded the harvest, it being
vote for this commissien would appear on the estimates, as notorious that those three months were the most THE world is on tiptoe to learn the probable solu-
the consmon had nearly concluded its labours. difficult to meet by the Web of the whole year, tion of the Lombard questioo and interested parties
Col. SIBTHORP was afraid that the commiasion would and it would have been very cruel to have are doing all that slummy and argument can effect
break out in a fresh place. withdrawn all relief front the people at that period. It was
Dr. BOWRING hoped that the commission on the crirei- or this purpose
'
that he asked the house to agree to the vote to sway public opinion and influence the final deci-
nal law of the Channel Islands would be extended to the which he was about to place in the hands of the chairman. sion. It is, unfortunately, the case, that in England
Isle of Man, where the law was is a condition which re- The relief operations would ceue entirely atof the few look to purely Italian interests. All hepes aud
quired immediate reform. present month, and *treed,' many of the depots had been thoughts of these were abandoned with the great
, After a few words from Mr. B. OSBORNE, broken. up.,
,Tuhe oepnetrattoions of
e tprti.,:eatedetradinerdl,
.or would
co
rte nt e ea-t
f., tidings of defeat, and the struggle is looked upon as
Sir It. H. INGLIS protested against Dr. Bettering, Peet er'''''ric: ? mc'.
leasing to represent the undivided opinion of the inhabitants werelikely to arise, andmethe housemmight be satisfied one merely between Austria a..d France, in which
silks Isle of Maa. that the great difficulties which had to be overcome our old fears of the latter survive, and true patriotism
After a few words from Dr. BOWRINO in explanation, when the relief eommission began its operations were now is Made to consist in erecting barriers against France,
Bir 0. GREY said that when a judicial office in the island n a fair way of being removed. The right bon. gentle- and bringing hostile powers with their fortresses as
was recently vacant, he had appointed a gentleman of high man concluded by moving that 132,0001. be granted for
near to the French frontiers as possible.
eivaiding to fill it who was likely to give his attention to tee relief of disuses in Ireland and Scotland, to be distributed
This was the old policy of Lord CASTLEREAGH. to
elate sat the laws there. He did not deny that them were throueh the commieuriat
!ems things in those laws which required remedy, and he Mr. P. SCROPE opposed the TOW, onl the grounds that advance and collect every element hostile to France
WAS willing to give the subject his attention ; but he could rants in ai4 ot the poonrate were obiectionable. The RS near to France as possible. Austria WRS brought
not go so far as to appoint a commission for the purpose.rental in Ireland was 13 million', and surely out ot tkat the to the Ticino, Prussia to the Moselle, Holland to
Alter a few words Irons Mr. P. HOWARD, the vote waslandlords might support their poor. To be sure, it was said the Ardennes. No account was made of the affec-
agreed to.that the present WY an extraordinary emergency, but on
On the motley% that • sum, not exceeding 2,50(1., should looking to the accounts, he found the sum expended during ions or tendencies of the populations of the
be voted to defray the expenses of the met
ro
sanitary he lut seven months would give an annual rate of only 2s. countries than chopped, changed, and pa
toe
coudition n the pound. out. Their lack of allegiance was to be
Mr. B.,OSBORNE called attention to the state of the Ser. Sir .1. TT KELL complained that the Chancellor of the made up by the number and strength of fortresses, in
peatine river, which was such as to be Itiobly dangerous to Exchequer had made no reference to remedial measures some isles erected wi*h English money. And this
the inhabitants of the neighbourhood. His belief WM that the Roman catholic religion was icom•
Lord bIOItPETH odd that the eubject had been placed in atihle with the due cultivation of the soil of Ireland. settlement and these precautions were considered per-
the hands of Sir J. Rennie for inquiry, and his report had " Hear," and a laugh.) The loon. and learned doctor manent. How have they stood the test of time ?
not been envie d. (Boweing) would bear him out that in Swezerland there was How do Belgium and its fortresses check France ?
The next vote was for 33,0001. to the 31st of March, 1849. • marked difference between the protestant and catholic Are the Rhenish provinces a strength or a weakness
one moiety of the cost of certain works of navigation con. putt The e rotestanto always looked after their business,What has the duchy of Milan proved to
tinted with railways in Ireland.—The vote was agreed to. the catholies neglected everything fur • funeral, wed.
Austria ?—a source of cruelty, discontent, disgrace,
to. Prussia?
On the next vote tieing out, for 1,1841. for the works and ding, or a saint's day. Unless government made a deter-
repaint tel the British ambassador's house at Paris, mined stand, these demands upon the purse of this country military and political weakness. Surely the let
Mr. B OSBORNE ohserved that it was a very expensive would be repeated from time to time. ti.irty years have shown that it is not extent of
house. It b add originally cost 36,0001., and in six years Mr. B. OSBORNE remarked that throughout the argue territory that gives force to one country, or the pri-
-15,0001. had been spent on it. ment of the hon. member for Stroud there was this fallacy, \ration of it weakness to another, unless the wishes,
that the Irish landlords got their rents, which was rot the
the energies, and the loyalty of the inhabitants be
The vote was agreed to.
taken into account.
On the vote being out for 3,0001. for the works and re- et
After an observation from Mr. CLZMENTS,
"
pairs of the British ambassador's home at Madrid.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY asked whether this money wee If we wish to erect a bulwark against the French
Mr. URQUHART thought this sum more excessive than
the vote for the ambassador at Paris. He thought a eutil to be paid out sat the runlets of the relief loan ? in hale, that bulwark must be an Italian not a German
cleat reason why it should not be voted was the fact that The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER acid it one. Fax German rule in that country can never be any-
would he taken Icons the funds which had been voted for thing but provisionahand never anything but a source
there was no tenant. There was no ambassador at Madrid,
and there was no reason why there should be one. lie the relief of Ireland.
moved that the vote be reduced to the same amount es that In reply ton queetion from Lord H. HEINTINCI, of weakness and mierule both to Italians and to
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said Germans. True conservatism, therefore, the conserva-
tor the British Ambassador's house at Peri..tion of the balance of power, should consult na-
Mr. B. OSBORNE tied that Sir H. Beirut. had hired 10,000,0001. had been voted, and somethieg more than
the hoose tor 5001. a year for 20 years. He coneluded that 9,000,0001. bed been expended. . tionality, and raise up an Italian people and an
Sir H. Bulwer had let it, and hewondered whether any ro_ Mr. P. SCROPE attributed the pauperism of Ireland in a
Italian,.pruce.
duction was to be made on that account. great degree to the misconduct of the landlords in neglecting
Lord PALM IeRhTON said that Sir li. Bulger he ingthis only be done
and otherwise It is plain that ts can by an exten-
to employ the poor in reclaiming waste lends,
sion
of
_,
~,
obliged to leave the I owe whicii he formerly orcupied, tie improving their property.
constituting his race monarchs of an empire to ex-
could not find another hoots. suitable without difficulty aid Sir D. NORRRYS defended the Irish landlorde, and de-
without taking a lease of it. It was, therefore, neceseary dared that he as one would prefer any amount of taxation to tend from the Lower Alps to the Mincio or the Adige.
We are not blind to the defects a CHARLES
that government should undertake the alterations and repairs coming to that house for aid.
Lord J. RUSSELL
.said that, in the present circum-
ot the house. Tree expense of the rent would not fall upon
the pablic stances of Intent, with an nacres'. 4 charge by poor- ALBERT'S character, or to the spots upon his
Toe amendment was withdrawn and the vote agreed to. rate of from 400,0001. to 1,800,0001., and a threat- reputation. We are well aware how much, in the ,
later movements or the campaign, he has laid himself
ens d tenure in Val potato crop, ;he did not think
37,5001. wee then voted for steam communication to India t would he wire to lay down anv definite plan
by the Red Sea; 15,0001. for militia and vo'untetra in with ~ open tosuspicion and distrust. But we believe the
tto the condition ot Ireland. The government o 6 '
Chief points of the accusation utterly unfounded, and
Canada ; 20001 tor a liahttiouse at Barbed°. ; 22,6001 to
i'a encl. In'eow to what • :tent that tailu're prevailed, or how
defray the exp, was of medal Ito reg:ate the services •.1 th • much of the crop might ' e paved comparatively with last the betrayal of Milan, for example, a pure calumny.
army and nave from 1793 to 1814; 10,0001. for further ex- year. They could not tell either what might he the amount It is very natural that Italian troops, overwhelmed
pelisse probably to bo ineurre d Inc the mainten trice of eon-
oso they by the superior numbers of the Austrians, should, after
view; and 1,5001 for Lieut. Waghor-, for hi. services in ••-- ( deetitution in the present year, and that being
Ave days' hard and unsuccessful fighting, be unwilling
must on ask for the cottfidence of parliament, not however
certaining th,.. ptactnehility of the refute to Alexenetria•
without promising a due regard to economy. If the extent The state of his army
On the motion that 12,0001. be voted for the completion of
of the calamity should reach such a point as to demand ex- to renew
was excuse theenough strugg
for CHARLES ALBERT'S with-
le.
the rebuilding of the British ambassador's house at Con traerdinary measures they would call parliament temether,
stantioople, but they did not prove- hew. the end ot the union to drawal behind the Adds. It was evideotly not his
Mr. URQUHART complained that 45,000!. had been lay down any general plan by which to provide against • first intention to defend Milan. And if he did hasten
already spent her that object. He moved :hat the rose be me calamity of which they could not foresee the extent.
duced by onebolf, thither, it was with no determined or trustful hope of
The vote was then agreed to.
Lord PALMERSTON stated that the original estimate The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the being able to defend it. There was infirmity of pur-
IMS 4,5,0001. That estimate had to en met Only exceeded, next vete was the tut which would be asked for the pur- pose, not treachery, in his conduct. And whatever
but there were many reasons why such a house shotd_d cult pose, inastnuth as Canada, the colony to which the vote had was the spirit of the Milanese, we think it fortunate
more than one at anosher place.
reticence, had undertaken the cot ~f future cmi ration. The that the city did not hold out against the overwhelm-
Mr. OSBORNE would like to knew the teas-nee Ile
vote he asked was to cover the charges which the provprovinces•
mg force and artillery of RADETZKI.
hoped that this ambassador did not adopt none habits
bed undertalt n, to meet the tliit.e.o and destitution which
there ? (Laughter.) had been brought to the American shores by the influx or Our press, however, uuites with Austria and with
Lord PALMItRS lON explained that some of the reasons France in running down CHARLES ALBERT : in so
Trish emigrants. II tr Mejesty'e government had felt bound,
were that roving to being enefitied to the originia sit- it had en Feint sensations made to them, to defray the ,:pease thus doing, it doesthfientwhletoarlFkyre,ohntethiele,civ.enihAto:LiarctsieoAfaLmlßtabLiißitaniTousferee-v..0
been necessary to make a great depth of fcundation : end it eittailed upo I the colorists to an extent they were unable to
had been requisi o also to use iron etuetete, and to Weedote.
Predominating Iho
Dear, on the'unuerstan.ling chat for tan future the celoniets
other ierecautions against Hee. aural
vroul.l undertake the burden. He therefore mov.d th.X
The amendment was withdrawn, and the vote was worse than Austria, and dielike hie rule of North i
130.9691 103 War:L.4 to her V. &testy tu el tray the expenses
ill keep up the
ngreed to. •iicurreei in tho British North Ameeicse pr-vinces on account Italy even more than that of a German vioe-
On the vote of 20,0001. for civil otntingencies being mi., t the sick tool destitute emigrants to those c-loth s from I roy. For German role w
status quo of Italian diecontent till st.ch time as
Mr. OSBORNE. teltiected to the gratuit.tes rid sem,. for Ireland.
wooss employed in relieving distress In Ireland, which Me. HUME supported the Tote, and wise that this country the French are ready to take advantage of it. An
amou Aim to 4,0451. He complained that the Irish owed ade p debt of gratitude to the Canadian. her their Italian monarch would commence -
coast guard envies had been neglected, while Mr. conduct en the trying calamities by which they had been
tCrollthuAßnadtLhaEionB A
Italian
theus e t r roktnihnl aygt
kingdom
irosum to
ly:
y an tutogetrer new
ctelitheer
eanofacf
Trevelsan had obtained rewards and honeurs. lie had visited. system and career. And for this, it. is cot ro much
been made • K.C.8., which be thought was dragging that Mr. M'GREGOR mho supported the vote, which was an
t.; . thealcoi personal s
iddyl.
d.cihyareas.
distinction in the dirt. Why not make him a privy couch act of justice to the Canadians.
caller ? Nobody would object to that. (Laughter.) He Mr. P. SCROPE thought this expense bad been thrown
might deserve the distinction of IL C.P., kmght commander on the country from the careless and negligent manner in
of
potatoes—but certainly not that of K.C.B. The govern- which Irish paupers had been sent out from this country to any of the others, Austrian, or Tuscan, or Bourbon.
meat had acted very differently towards Sir H. Pigott, to the Canadas. The whole evil arose trom the want of proper can but found semi-national and ephemeral and local
whom they censidered the honorary distinction was enough, arranitements in the conveyance of these people to that jurisdictions.
notwithstanding his great services. colony. We think, therefore, that the policy which is moat
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not Mr. HENLEY supported the vote as an act ofjustioe to consonant to English, to European, and to Italian
review the debate which had taken place on a teenier mein the Cateadiaio.
Won, but he would say that the reward bestowed upon Sir The vote was then agreed H
su as alm a vote of 500,0001. to intetests, hi consulted by the proposal to the Austrians
C. Trevle yen was not unprecedented, and was no more thee discharge the like amount of pplies ranted for the year il P
to ive u Lombardy to CHARLES ALBERT. And if
htt deserved. 1847. they give it up at all, it must be to him; for no one
Dr. BO
hoped that the hon, and gallant gentle. The house then resumed (amidst loud cheers), the CHAIR- imagines that a Lombard republic could exist, or
man would not divide the house. MAN reported the resolution, and the report was ordered to would to allowed to exist, or that the region is worth I
Mr. J. A SMITH bore testimony to the extraordinary be received teemorrow (this day). erecting into new and independent prinmpalit W
devotion of Sir C. Trevelyan in dee ributing and superintend- POOR REMOVAL (ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND) _ ___ ~. •.. ,_,_,_ I-, e 1
ing the money that was given for the relief of the Irish poor. BILL nem not say WMA neither tue eo reo ven the trench 1
Sir it. INGLIS felt it his duty to beer similar testimony to momM moved the second nading of the Poor Edvernment g? to that of Vienna with a blustering
the conduct oiSir C. Trevelyan. Rl (Eoglend end Scotland) Bill. order, saying, ' Cede this, or we will. make war upon
Col. DUNNE protested against the reward to Sir C. Tre- Mr. HENLEY mewed that the debate on this important TIM." It is neither the duty nor the character ot
velyan. Othcts had done a great deal more than Sir C. measure should be adjourned.
Tendrils, and they received no reward. He bad brought No MONSELL could not see any objection to the prin• England to make or to menace war. But Austria
libellous charges against the Irish people, and east unworthy eiple of the bill, the details of which could be arranged in must feel, that, for her give
aspersions on tne gentry of that country. ere was . committee.
Tt blhortations of France and England, and to persist •in re-
Soyer, who displayed great zeal and ability in the Mlle of Mr. BROTHERTON objected to the hill being proceeded tainiog the Italian status quo as ;he arms of Ba-
the people of Ire:and. (Laughter.) He thought great in- with at this late hour. It was a measure which would have roam have established it—neither Austria nor
Mites was done to H. Boyer to not getting some reward. He the effect of pauperising the districts with which he was cone
would vote for the punier of his hon. frietul, also, because he neeted. any one else deceive themselves as to the result of
thought Art by conferrina the distiaction of K.O B. on Sir After a few words from Mr. 0. A. HAMILTON. awl a refusal. No one can suppose that the peace of
C. Tr velyan that honour had been degraded. Mr. %V. BROWN moved that the bill should be read a Europe can be permanently maintained on such a
Mr. U. DRUMMOND theuebt it was impossible tea over seemed time that day MIL months. to. intople. LOUIS PHILIPPE himself avulse rot '
rate the services of Sir C. To. e.dy in in ow:rooming the op- Capt. HARRIS thought the immure would be injurious, to) SO,
were he on the throne of Fratre to-mort ow.

ELECTION COMMITTEES—YESTERDAY.
DUBLIN.—At the meeting of the committee counsel
for sitting member announced that an amicable arrangement
had beenconie to, the result of which was the' his client gave
up his claim for costs on the abandoned scrutiny ; the (Nil
petition against Mr. Grogan to be given up on the same con-
ditions. The committee to make a special report; for which
see yarliamentary proceedius.
LIIELTENEISM.—Mr. James summed op for the
sitting member, and Mr. Gurney replied for the petitioners.
The committee then reaolvid that Mr. Craven Berkeley had
by his agents been guilty of bribery and treating at the elec-
tion of 1847. Committee adjourned to this day (Thursday)
to consider whether the vacated seat should be given to
Mr. Gardner, the petitioner.
HousnAm.—The evidence respecting bribery and
treating continued tl•roughout the day.

Vitt Orpnlo.

AIL&
The overland closed malls, eio Marais, to the Mediterranean,
14ty14 Aden, Ceyka, India, Hong-Kons, se, will be made up on the
evening of the 24th Aug.
The mails for British North America, and the United States
will be made up the evening of the 25th Aug-
Tbe mails for Vigo, Oporto, Lisbon, Modeira, Culls, and Gibraltar
will be made up on the morning of the 2;th Aug.
The rnalla for New South Wale*, Van DienAll'il Land. and New
Zealand will be made up on the everting of the 314 AugusL
The made for the Vi net WWI of Africa and Madeira will be made
up on lbw evening of the 314 August.
The Went India Mails, including Bermuda. Nmaxil, Ilavanna,
Honduras, New Orleans, Vera Crux, Tampico, and Porto Itina, and
excluding thaw for Madeira, Jocose', Cartbogen., Santa Men*
Chugres, Panama, West Coast of South America, and St. Juan.dc-
Nicaragua, will be made up on the morning ol the tad Sept.
The malls for the Brazils, tie River Mete, Monteideo, Pernam-
buco. Bahia, Madeira, and Buenos Ayres, will tie made up on the
ev overland enof the 4tb Sepber.
malls lam
eraltar, Malta. Greene, the lonian islands,
Egypt, Aden, Ceylon, India, Hong-Kong, and China, siM Southamp-
ton, will be node up on the evening of the 20th Sept.

NOTICE TO ADVEUTISERS.
The number of STAMPS issued by the authorities of th.
Stamp-office, during 1847, to the
DAILY NEWS wsa 3,447,009
This, we believe, is within eight per cent of the numb,.
issued to the Morning Herald, Morning Chromele, an.
Wornisq Post, ALL PVT TOORTHIK.
In addition to the above, issued to the DAILY NEWS,
twain,/ Paper, there were issued for the livening Rsisiime
THE EXPRESS 778'714
Which was more, we believe, then were, eauroi vlther to
•ha Globe or Standard. Evening Papers.

II 0H MATTA AT 1.0010/N St ID(111.
DAA-110rete A. Ms-0W I: At 00,... . mi. TA. 10.
•••••••••-iliar•lni IWA. pot 11. Afteres...4: ntl. prl 11.

If, however, Austria ahotild decidedly object to
the giving up of Lombardy to enattua AL-
BERT, the question is, what arrangement amid
the court of Vienna propose, which would allow
Gen. CAVAIGNAC to say that he had concluded as
honourable peace, and to maintain that honour.
able peace belore the assembly and the public
'of France. Suppose Austria made the follow-
ing proposition—viz., to extend and liberalise
somewhat the Bret condi.ions brought by M.
MELAUER. That diplomatist proposed that the
Lombardo-Venetian kingdom should be constitated
apart from the German dominion and go.
yerninent of Austria, that it should have
a representative system and local independence. Now,
we will say, that were the gift of this independence
guaranteed to be real, and were there not only a se.
parate government given to the Lombardo-Vene-
tians, but a prince and a dynasty, even of the
Austrian family—were this prince to govern, like
the Duke of TUSCANY, with Italian ministers, sap.
ported by a military force of Italian soldiers: we do
not know but that such a so'.ution would prove 80.
ceptable to the liberal and constitutional powers—to
France and to England—and finally to the Italians
themselves.
It is quite evident that the only alternatives are
some arrangement similar to this, or Austria's prefer-
ring and persisting is the c.miplete Austrification of
the Venetian territory an 4 capital, and the abandon.
ment of Lombardy to CHARLES ALBF.BT on the condi.
Mon of its undertaking to be charged with a large
portion of the Austrian debt. In a commercial as well
as a military point of view, Austria and Germany
would be stronger with Venetia part of the empire.
To this it is evident the minister at Frankfurt trans,
M. ANDRYAN'S mission being to point out the news.
sity of Germany's retaining not only the two fortresses
on the Adige, but also the two others on the Mincio.
The pure Aus rian politicians may, however, have
other views, and may prefer a solution of tl.e question
more favourable to the dynasty, than to either the
commercial or naval interests of Germany.

WE suppose it may safely be taken for granted
that in the very scanty catalogue of important ma-
nures passed this session, the Diplomatic Relations
with Rome Bill will be included. The large majority
in its favour, on its second reading in the Ilouse of
C0M1110131., renders it very unlikely that it will either
occupy much time or undergo any serious modifica-
tion in passing through committee. Withiu a
week it will be the law of the land; and within
a month we may expect to witness the formal renewal
of that diplomatic intercourse between the courts of St.
James's and the Vatican which, for nearly three cent's&
ries, has had no legalised existence. In a less uncertain
and turbulent time than the present the event would
be a striking one, and would call fur the warm con-
gratulations of all who deplore the religions dissen-
sions, of which, though the worst enormities be abo-
lished, the spirit is still too rife among a consideral le
portion of our population. But now, shorn as the
Rennin pontiff is of the " divinity that did hedge "
him round—stripped of many of those emblems of
authority which the least respected of his pro:bees-
sors had managed to retain—thwarted in the govern-
ment of Lis own dominions by a refractory parlia-
ment and a sea-cely less refractory ministry—risking
the utter loss of his temporalities if he keeps on terms
with Austria, and perilling his spiritualities,—ma-
naced with the still more fearful alternative of a
Tedescan schism,—if he quarrels with her, the present
condition of the Pope is one which the moat acrimo-
Moue frequenter of Exeter-hall may naturally rejoice
at, but which he has no longer any plausible excuse
fur pretending to dread. So that really we cannot
point to the very faint and desultory opposition
svtich has been offered to this measure during
the five months that have elapsed since its rapid
passage through the House of Lords, as the
cheering and convincing evidence of the predomi-
nance of a tolerant spirit in these islands which
at an earlier period it would have been. The events
of the last few month, have made it perfectly plain,
that whatever mischiefs the Roman catholic church
may be destined still to do the world, must proceed
from some other source, and have some other centre
of vitality than the inordinate influence of the Bishop
of Rome.
Glad as we are, therefore, to see this measure
passed ; creditable as it is to England that she his
determined to get rid of an absurdity which had so
long prejudiced her character and interfered with her
interests ; we cannot help tearing that, except as an
atonement for past forties, and as a testimony of
her common sense, this tardy recognition of
the expediency as well as the justice of maintaining
with the spiritaal head of the larger half of Christen-
dom, the same friendly relations which she does not
object to cherish with Mahometans or Pagans, has
come too late to be of that essential service, which
has been the principal, though not the most generally
acknowledged, motive for its introduction by the pre-
sent government' If indeed Sir ROBERT INGLIS and
Mr. ANSTEY had as much foresight in regard of the
future, as they boast a preposterous and indiscrimi-
nating attachment to the past, we might conjecture
that a measure which they concurred to oppose, mist
be pregnant with immense advantages to the people of
these realms. But the duration of the papal power
on its present basis, or in any of the positions in which
hitherto it has been formidable, is precisely the last
subject on which we would be inclined, even haruspi-
L ally and by negative inference, to consult the tears
or the prejudices of either of these gentlemen. Not
but that the objections which they severally made to
the bill, and the consequences which they anticipated
• from its being carried into effect, might fairly be
pitted against each other as ludicrously incompatible.
Under no circumstances could events prove Sir R.
Deems a true prophet, without Mr. ANSTET being
equally proved a false ot,e, and vice versa. At e
doubt if any, the most unanimous, acceptance of
this measure by the House of Commons would be
so strong a testimony to its policy (if not too late) as
there being no opposition to it, but one composed of
such heterogeneous and conflicting elements, and
championed by such antidotes to common sense and
to each ether, as led that opposition on Thursday

night.
It will be curious, certainly, if, as Lord &MINTON'S
amendment (excluding ecclesiastics from representing
the court of Rome) proved the cause of five months'
mortal delay, alter the triumph of this bill
in the House of Lords, so the Duke of WEL-
LINGTON'S amendment, which substituted the term
" sovereign of the Roman States" for ', sovereign
Pontiff," as it originally stood—should, by the pro-
grese.. of events, have the effect of negativing the
principal objects for which the bill was introduced
It was, we cannct help thinking, a weakness on the
part of Lord LANSDOWNE to yield so readily to the
Duke of WELLINGTON'S recortmendation. and intro•
dune into the bill what wee so palpably a subterfuge,
unworthy of an EnAish peer to suggest, and of the
English legi-latore to sanction. What a pity when a
good and sensible thing is to be done by man or nation,
and a tardy homage rendered to ju,tice an ! common
sense, that it can so seldom be perform•d with
that good grace and frankness of demeanour
which lend uew lustre to the noblest actions! It
would be a merited retribution for this pusillanimous
blinking of the real question, if the bill, obtained by
such concessions, proved by this change ions title to
be an utter futility. It will not need for that, what
some have gone so far as to forebode, that the Pope
should be driven from Rome an exile and a vagabond,
without a shelter and without a home. Any
material progress in revolution further than
what has already occurred at Rome, can scarcely
fail to eever the spiritual authority of that
state from the temporal, and place the Po
at
in a position analogous to that which, by a
transition, the GRAND LAMA of Thibet, and
Caliphs of Egypt, occupied, after the decay of their
temporal power. The innovating zeal of Italy, or the
republican fervour of the Homan populace may,
aught any one can foresee in this year I of the new
revolutionary era, abolish in Coto even the title of
Sovereign Pontiff, which Lord LANSDOWNE SO DAP
taously to the House of Lorda, and discourteousad
lY
his holiness,e, consented to suppress. Heen
the Roman catholic faith, and spiritual
vereign of one-half the Christian world
COlatin—
the successor of ST. PETER will ?.
to be. But secularised Rome may refuse to reooo..e,
him in any other capacity than that of Primate
Italy ; and as such lie would, in a temporal 141 d, sti
no longer a sovereign, but a subject of the state
which his see may be placed. Whether in a.DY to
event he is likely to retain the tame authonty
with
the Roman catholic subjects of other states, wh,ePo:
now enjoys, it is diffi mit to say ; but 't or.
that it is not exftetl'3 through an emba,aador, or kill;
officer of that raLk, that the sovereigus of tu

• .
4,...
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TSB
rf ' s tis
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. .
espidel
sacifer be
error u Mr.
of inrgfon. S°.
21STer•InietitrniunitbailPidl:caitb;e: ‘willitl'' ..!d!l‘.............mscarlarti•ll4l4ll3ehß'vdQ.U°LlrAiairßT4nTo:::::ll)); the a:e:cilinr4efent vtrii
Sir C. 'Srinlyan, on the primil
for in consequence of to application mode, Poly io the
by Mr. Morgan,74:istir..th.:st..th, e amount
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be.be @ulna.
neceili . th""111:1"1""tairt 7.
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by the orgreg.ati at should not, on account of the prevailing thibip_rell.,str4,7o747Zuc9"7:ve how
any aim nut,
-