The Express.
London, England, 1851-06-18 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAYHAMING, JUNE 18, 1851,,

in obtaining
Milani Inis
el for
a
netted to seems VA'
iward freWea.emil lad
large seus of
amen Llfirtees had
..... explisneed Mlee. elms
was in the sumenx sad eUrgeA a of isse=t
bo had leseneedissi to *IA eat la the 're-
fine pole itt dote* as rate. letwithnindiad
ea elient atilhe sable lead, the forpolar sheagaele
.fittiparllt slip✓ lin awe wise elf
1)21
and e• bad Ito gam
he had adegartaeweiel. be wee frequently
obliged to eagle, the est of their regular
tares. (Hew. bun.) Masan dasheat shipowner, whit
had bean a of the repeal of the
navigatien tentiNlZZlPllialle
__to be ruined by that
issessarsh W.el be 0.4 .... e.) was informed, in-
amed bb Am Ile aped gem 16,000 to 30,000
lb. Wiehissm,_ &Alp builder, who in
Ibis before the committee desieeM that if the nevi-
laws wererepealed he should be ea= t4leaz
Et :watry, led established anathar poll ea
whine be tree new building a stag et ;,NS NW Wks.
hullo Mbar large vessels. With these het Wore Ma be
dad al admit that the shipping interest was depressed is
enrsponse of the repeal of the navigation laws. AR
the avideaire that he had been able to collect weat
to wee that the shipping interest generally was far frost
lift in that state of depression which the petitioners and
aims illeusi. It appeared to him that the real principle
area add* leg cation should proceed was to promote the
god of lie peat bulk of the community, and not the it
• any one class only. (Hear, bear.) And if he had
been able to show, as he thought he had, partly by the
ellibenesta of the noble lord, ma partly by his own, eat •
genhernumberof British ships nine employed, at Oa as
• freatter demand for ships, sad that we were seelled to
Mew catemore safely, sane easaosnically, asd Ida
pan h than formerly, tat mght to be staging
to pee, ones--(hear)—but if he Wed to this at a
=rare extending their Wises in all dieslisesh
at lithe shipwrights were la • alipdarlissiesepseas
eladidion, he thought he was est =swami bete tact
that freights were less nor by As allopike the ship-
owners were in great :distress.
Lord HARDWICKE presented Ina various
ports, complaining of the repeal of laws, and,
after :complimenting Lord Granville soanittbi la speech,
declared that be had never heard a statement so litue cal-
culated to restore confidence in a drooping interest. Go-
vernment would do all it could for the shipowners in the
way of negotiation, but it would do nothing else. The
noble lord then dwelt at some length on the decay of the
shipping interest, maintaining that the proof of prosperity
deduced from the increase in our shipping was illusory,
since that of other countries had increased in larger pro-
portion. He contended at much length on the justice and
necessity of obtaining reciprocity from other countries, or
enacting it on our own parts, and concluded by warning
the house against the decline of our maritime force.
Earl GREY believed that the shipowners were sufficiently
good men of business not to persevere in a losing trade, and
therefore saw in the increase of ship-building and employ-
ment an irrefragible proof that the trade was not in so bad
• way as the petition affirmed. We had already obtained
reciprocity from several foreign countries, and among others
from the United States, though he admitted that the posi-
tion and wealth of California gave the Americans many ,
natural advantages over us in certain directions. As re-
garded
France and Spain, which still retained their differen-
tial duties, he was convinced that any attempt to retaliate
would inflict an injury on our own trade. There were retali-
atory clauses appended to the act repealing the navigation
laws; and no doubt, if a ease arose, the government would
be bound to put those clauses into effect. Those clauses,
boasts, bad been introduced with a view to make use of
Om emirh when it was found that British ships were sui-
t/ring Is competition with the shipping of other countries,
is consequence of the restrictive regulations of those other
countries. There had never been any intention in intro-
ducing those clauses of exacting reciprocity. The very
principle of the act tens this : we made a great concession
at once, fully and completely, to all the nations of the
world, because we found that that concession would
be advantageous to ourselves; and we only reserved to
ourselves the power of retracting the concession and inflict-
ing retaliatory measures in the event of disadvantage arising
to our mercantile marine hereafter because of any restric-
tions which might be imposed or maintained by foreign
vestries. The only possible effect of the resort to such
weessnres would be to stop the legitimate trade comuletely,
and to place the traffic in the bands of smugglers. lie was
persuaded that the result at which they all aimed would be
best attained by following up that wise policy of liberality
which had of late years been adopted in reference to all
other commercial matters. That policy had been adopted
for our own interests, and irrespective of the conduct of
other nations. Until the last eight or nine years the theory
of reciprocity bad been firmly believed in. Mr.
Ricardo had, in the House of Commons, ex-
posed the fallacy of that theory ; and although he did
not at the moment succeed, he made an impression on the
public mind which yearly deepened. The administration
of the late Sir Robert Peel perceived this fallacy, and com-
menced the policy of relaxing our commercial code without
reference to the chances of other nations imitating ear
example or meeting us on equal terms. The result had
been, he (Earl Grey) maintained, beyond measure success-
ful. For a quarter of a century before, we had been en-
gaged in endless and fruitless negotiations with foreign
countries in the hope of impressing upon them the expe-
diency of liberality. Since we had taken the wiser and
bolder course, our own commerce had made the most ex-
traordinary and rapid advance which had ever lama re-
corded of the commerce of this or of any other people, and,
more than that, we had the gratification of knowing that
foreign nations were beginning to follow us, with slow steps,
no doubt, but still surely and certainly. The alterations
made of late yearn in the tariffs of foreign countries, though
not excessive, were in the right direction, tending to the
reduction and removal of all those duties and restric-
tions which impede and destroy trade. More than
this again; it was becoming every day more ev:dent
that the nations which refused to follow us would fall far-
ther and farther behind in the race of the civilised world.
Referring to the comparative progress of France and
England he would take from the year 1842, when
England first decidedly began to relax her protective
system, to the year 1849, the last year up to which he
had been furnished with any exact return in respect
to France. The total tonnage, inwards and outwards,
in France in 1812 was 3,217,000. In 1849 it was
3,373,000; showing an increase in those seven years of only
120,000 tons—that was to say, not quite 4 per cent. The total
tonnage, as regarded England, iu 1812 was 7,347,000. In
1849 it was 12,620,000 ; being an increase in those seven
years of 5,273,000 tons—in other words an increase of 71
per cent.
The Earl of HARDWICKE—But we had ns revolution.
Earl GREY—No, but 1819 was after the revolution.
when commerce and trade, the President's election being
over, were reviving ; and, as affected England, 1849 was by
no means a favourable year to choose, fur we had scarcely
then recovered from the effects of the famine in Ireland,
and the commercial confusion consequent upon exerasive
speculation in railways. But this, after all, was an isade-
quate view of the real contrast between the two countries.
In England, at present, they saw every description of trade
increasing, advancing, and extending: the railway commu-
nication almost perfect, and entirely the work of private en-
terprise ; docks and other gigantic public works rising on
all sides, and also being created by private ca-
pital. In France, on the other hand, they saw nothing
but stagnation. Her railway communication was advancing
slowly to completion • and what little was done was done
mainly through the assistance of the state. Her public
i works were few ; and these were not carried on in the same
way as those of England. In every branch of her trade
ea her industry there was the same stagnation. Was this
• state of things to which France was -likely long to sub-
mit? It would not be difficult to detect the causes of this
shame of prosperity. It was, he believed, simply because
eneg aside in France was exposed to die advantage by the
Frame system of restriction. It was not by keeping up
any nenietions on our trade that we would induce France
to remove those restrictions of which we complained. The
wisest policy for us was to wait with patience until we really
saw that we were practically suffering from competition
with that country, and until we could be convinced that
the imposition of restrictions on our part would relieve that
suffering. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then moved the second
reading of the Schools Sites Acts Amendment Act, which
having been agreed to,
Their lordships adjourned at half-past eight o'clock.

Need on this aeseressee
oesned be mad not
us tied whisk thy,
They bad dams
bed gives diem
soda
=aim _
Now, we bad retaised
they retabsed their a-
wing wee the char
asks of Fa Ida Piet i• the nines err—a—stilTool dim*
the oaten Deluging to that . Tb. Almada NW
board WY esseeasearive theft the ; blabs Mit
say it seems* sa el a
trade, whets they MIT% nog WI • 411Z:a5
Bolos to New Yeah, bat hen law Tub la
(" beer," and • ktiab)—a eke bat as
her swathe dlNWeelaff kap
the lamokriA 41/
dila as Ameink dip mead net be hs say mien
whisk bythe knelt strata st eke lessgketise,
tbey seen prolog to eall their owe. (Hear,He-
enan we do aft allow the hasselease to Interim with our
mating trade km Leith to Lembo, es from Liverpool to
Dublin, the/ thought it that eel Ihk to say the rays.
from New Teak to Bea Fivasiese—wbfeli may occupy foga
or five essatko—is sealed szrer yea." ('' Hess," eni
a laugh.) Thildecii. we AUNrian resemble la
registered as vessels, Asserisea built ships,
bsu
by our merehanta, might be registered as Bee
ships. But build vessels at Halifax or Moat:eel,
end they kohl set be sold to Amok= leer-
chants, booms *sir navigation lams gersidbilid th
Now, while we bail Oven the United Stabs the boat el
ister!esenseenillalleM with all our colonial poesetniene. tlw
refused is • negliebetion in the profits &Moil. AIM 111
=auallew York to Ben Prussia & La Arnsiena
eke ask New York eall disibm.st ase sieWet
an risking, did eel return skeet Cap Bws sea Usk
again to New York, but she poloseded to China or the int
Indies and thence brought,. amp to England. She loaded
again ia this , owl sale a reams voles, to New
York--ins labia lksr asilast asialik the feet of which
'being 11110Wi the. ereaskes to per ler asiIISIM and remn-
perste her owners. Am ok% read of the reciprocity she
enjoyed from England, didetsred England from el-
miler reciprocity, for she obliged our shipowasee
to take only two freights, and those tne least remusepatioe,
whereas she took three ; and, therefore, we were beeskaly
engaged in competition with her. (Hear.) This WY • mm-
petition in which one party was loaded with berdsosheri was
not allowed the same privileges as another partembig ex
wily the same voyage. We had now 18 months' experience
of tho working of the repeal of the navigation laws, and
what steps had her Majesty's government taken during that
time to put in force those provisions of the bill ?
provisions which it was not understood Auld be
allowed to remain • dead letter on the statute
I book, to the Jeanne loss and injury of the commercial new
rine of this country. (Hear, hear.) He had been told that
within the hot three or four days • foreign vessel coming
into Liverpool was surprised to find the Cutone-house
authorities there demanding 20 per cent. differential duty
from her. The name of the vessel was the Harems* ; bat
be wild hardly believe the information to be correct, es tbe.
set et parliament required that restrictions should be in.
weed by an order in council, and that such order shoal
hest be laid on the table of the house. Ile, however, had
thought it right to call attention to the rumour, reit/sent
making any comment upon it, and no doubt her Majesty's
government would contradict or explain it in their reply.
In conclusion, he had to ask whether the British marine
was not placed at an enormous disadvantage by this want et
reciprocity ? —how long this state of things was to humans?
—and did her Majesty's government intend to impsis seek
restrictions as would confer justice, and grant fair munsele
tion between the vessels of this country and thoso d ether
nations ? (Cheers.)
[The noble lord was heard very indistinctly throughout
his speech, although he spoke with unusual impetuosity, it
being as difficult to hear loud tones in the new House of
Lords as the conversation, across the table iu which some of
the noble lords indulge.]
Earl GRANVILLE, who was very imperfectly heard in
the gallery, was understood to say that the result of the pe-
tition, and of the noble lord's remarks, was this, that the
shipowner; of this country could not, without protection,
meet the foreigner, and that their difficulties were increased
by a want of reciprocity, on the part of foreign powers.
Now, when Engles/di repealed her navigation laws two
year. ago, her example was followed by several other
nations. It became the duty of the government, as soon
ne
the act was repealed, to communicate with Sweden,
Holland, Belgium, France, Spain, Portugal and the
United States on the subject. Sweden intimated at once
that she would remove all restrictions. Holland also
met this country in a most liberal spirit, and, in a
manner very much to her credit, bad lately communicated
the fact that she would admit our vessels to an equal parti-
cipation with her foreign and colonial trade. If Belgium
impewill a duty of 10 per cent., it must be recollected that
we had imposed a duty of 20 per cent. on her. France hail,
since the time of Louts XIV., protected her mercantile ma-
rine ; and, though the French government were hampered
with duties and restrictions, they bad assured her Majesty's
government of their desire to meet the case fairly. Tea
lest communication received from France offered very eon-
eiderable concessions ; still her Majesty's government did
not consider them sufficiently full, and the Foreign-offiee
Mu now waiting for the rejoinder from the French govern-
swat to the last communication sent them. When their
lardehips considered the extent of the seaboard of France,
bee excellent harbour*, her scientific skill in the building
of vessels, the intelligence of her inhabitants, and the fact
that for two hundred years she had been protecting her
mercantile marine, and when they further considered that
during the last fifty years the number of her vesselsabove
200 tons had diminished, it must be admitted that protection
was insufficient to sustain that marine. •(Hear, hear.)
lie contended that our prosperity was increased by the
prosperity of other countries; still, if the protectionists
understood their own interests, they ought to wish that
France should continue her prohibitory duties, should
continue to deprive herself of that mineral wealth which
was the basis of her prosperity, and should continue to keep
thew reatrictiote on her marine which would prevent her
ism having the general carrying trade of the world.
(Rear, bear.) With regard to Spain the question was
mere important. Communications had been received from
the Spanish governmeut of a favourable nature ; and indeed
it would be strange if it were otherwise, for restrictions
to that country could only °pewee to the advantage
• the smuggler. The United States was obviously
the most important point in the controversey. It
bad been stated by the noble lord, and could not
be denied, that we were placed at a disadvantage in
being excluded from the western ports of America. Still,
although the navigation laws had been repealed, we still
retained a power to enter California, and the English ship-
owner, as the statistics proved, had not neglected to avail
himself of that privilege. Much was seldom to be obtained
from an appeal to the generality of governments. Nations
most stand upon their rights, and there was very little
doubt that the United States' government were techni-
cally right is viewing the trade between New York and
San Francisco as a coasting trade. (Hear.) In many
respects the repeal of the navigation laws had operated
very much in our favour, and one of these was, that
it prevented sorted cargoes from going from one country to
another, and that, in tact. it had created for us a new trade.
We bail the must perfect reciprocity with certain countries.
With Sweden and the Baltic, for instance, tbia reciprocity
existed. It was possible that foreign governments,
when they heard a large and powerful party in this coun-
try, led by • man of such distinguished ability as the noble
lord, stating that all our interests were going to ruin—al-
though those foreign governments might find it difficult to
reconcile such a statement with our extensive commerce and
public revenue—might be induced, though he did not think
they would be, Wide/ their prohibitions with slowness. It was
important to observe that with reference to the commercial
tariffs of other nations, the tendency was generally to a
more favourable revision. True it was that in America
attempts had been made this year to render the tariff more
stringent ; but there, as well es here, it was far easier fur
the protectionists to complain of free trade when they
were in opposition than to run the risk of abolishing
it when they were in power. (Hear, hear.) With
respect to the statistics of the noble lord, he
was quite correct instating that there had been a diminu-
tion of 300.000 tons inwerds still, we had not unfortunately
that full information on this point which was so very die
sirable, though, from the arrangements which had been
made, be believed 04 such iuformatiuu would in future
be laid before parliament and the country. 'fhe official
returns from the United States showed what had taxon
place in that country iu the first six months after the navi-
gation laws hail been repealed. It heel then 6.8,000 tons
employed in the foreien trade, and New York alone had
34,000 tons employed in that trade. It was an important -
fact that there haul been an actual diminution in the United
Sietes of vessels employed in the foreign trade, and that
there had not been that rush of foreign shipping into this HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TIJCSDAT, ittNE 17.
country within the last two years which might have been The S took the chair at half past 12 o'clock.
expected. With reference to the Indent trade, in which it PRIVATE BUSINESS.
was supposed that the Coked Status could entirely sup- THIRD RPM/MOS.—East Anglian Railways; Electric
plant us, the British shies inwards had been, in Telegraph Company; East Statehouse Waterworks; New-
MO, 406,000 tons; and, in 1841, 412,000 tons, ark upon Trent Improvement and Market ; Bills.
showing a very considerable increase. (Hear, hear.) SHREWSBURY AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY
The prognostications therefore that our shipping trade BILL.
would be ruined by the repeal of the navigation laws had Consideration of hill ordered to lie upon the table.
set been verified by the results. He did not deny that Amendments were proposed and agreed to.
there was some pressure on the shipowners, but he AYLESBURY ELECTION,
odd notadmit that it was consequent on the change in the The report of the select committee on petitions of Tho-
law. That pressure was felt mainly on the coasting trade, ems Hughes Bradford and John Strutt was read and con-
trast it arose from the competition in the inland trade. lie/ I deleted.
we thrown open our coasting trade the depression might j The ATTORNEY-GENERAL considered it necessary
have been charged to foreign eorapotitioft, but that was , to call the attention of the house to only one portion of the
sot the caw. Ile was aware also that the peeswn Well report. The committee represented that it was an 'Anwar-
' great on the owners of second-class vessels, who fund it I wettable breach of the privileges of the house for any Per-
difficult now to obtain freights ; but this was a nataral eon- ; SOD to set the name of any other person to petitions pre-
sequence, for in every rue of competition the most seated to the house. He should therefore first move that
tardy must be left behind ; but, with regard the report be agreed to; and in the next place, that John
to first-class ships, the demand fur them was un- Strutt and Charles Cunningham, being the persons who
tonally emcee (Hear.) Another ground of complaint had signed the name of Thomas Hughes Bradford, and
brought forward by the petitioners, was the obligation to thereby been guilty of a breach of privilege, should be
owe their ships with British seamen. lie did n-,t with to committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms.
Ana on that point now, but he admitted that concurrently The report was then agreed to; and it was then ac.
MIMI tan repeal of the navigation laws, it might have been cordingly ordered that John Strutt and Charles Cunning-
-10 remove the existing restrictions on the manning ham be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-
NilletoCc.o3lMtlkBeSolOnNthils3aL.
OM" and in this respect it was not the intention of the Arms.
! camasat to leave
q~egtio thotehßerriectismhpslhair zesrtgen toulanaryf,uwa:
T.ShTe.hA.LBANax T,,Ddli,lß
idreersuhcletioraseduweetir.,onsinhadp
alreadyss. Tbhecenn. theMrre.portß OfiC.NseS committee [tin:yeas utterly inconsisten He
t. Thed
fartherLasitil=" con roe
was another source of pressure on the Liverpool trade, committee declared that the candidate against whom the
which the petitioners bad not adverted to. Mr. Lind. petition had been presented had been duly elected, and at
say. a shipowner of considerable experience and ability, who the settle time declared that they had not been enabled to
had written much on the subject of the repeal institute a full and fair inquiry in consequence of certain
of the navigation laws, had found that, owing to London • material witness having been improperly removed and
being the great vntreput of the world, and the produce of kept out of the way. Ile was far front objecting to fur-
all nations coming to it, there was no dieficulty in getting rber inquiry; on the contrary, he thmight further inquiry
freights to London, but it was not so as to Liverpool, was necessary in reference to the character of the house ;
although that port being in close proximity to the Inane. bat he was also of opinion that further inquiry should

\
b the Ova a manner as not additionally to I
ftlella of the house. The mmmittee
jai until the missing willows's were I
obtelsoillArga amestellies was to be appointed that au-
shads efteild menict al members of the House of Cora-
mane, dad not of commissioners, as now proposed. Hs
objeetel to peserZizi against the parties who had been
=oltand to the party corrupting all the
wtsish he have mimed when he resorted to
ire MOW for Om of procuring his election. He
) alif the one party, undoubt-
edly ; but be elm iminfr.not letting the other party
esespe,rllibist any pasiebsent whatever. The committee
having this bill he would adept it ; but he would
eadeavollergirei nmend the bill; and while he would do all
which dill of the committee desired to have
dose, he would propose to do still more. He believed it
was pmeffeis se ler te emend this bill as to ensure justice
to the , mai lo proem the character of the house.
There Wi loess s resew weber of allegations of ~bribery
areaas the Bolbrm Bill than before that bill
hesel daring this last general election fourteen
boroughs had bess shagged with bribery and comiption.
The noble lord who woe then as now at the head of the
government, undertook to bring In a bill which should
effectually remedy these flagrant offences; and the noble
lord did introduce such a measure bearing the title of a
bill to provide for inquiry into corrupt practices in the
election of members of parliament. Since then three
years hid passed, and although that bill had been
lost in the Lords, solely on account of the details, and
not of the principle it contained, neither the noble lord
nor his legal advisers had introduced any similar mea-
sure in principle to remedy these evils. Thus they
were still without sufficient legal remedy, and were
called upon, when occasion required, to legislate for that
occasion ; the present being an occasion which actually
forced them to some legislation. But any measure that
OtlVshould be consistent with the dignity of that
and likely to meet the approval of the other
branch of the legislature. The government had put
in a clause the names of three gentlemen who were to
be appointed commissioners. Now, the noble lord in his
former bill had assumed the principle that the commission-
ers should be appointed by the judges of assize, but in the
present case he nominated the commissioners himself. The
first was certainly the most decorous mode of effecting the
object, as the noble lord himself had recognised in 1818.
As a precedent the course now proposed was a had one, and
the whole bill was a bad precedent. He (Mr. Banker) pro-
posed what would be a better precedent—that they should
appoint three members of that house as commissioners. He
should propose, in the first place, that the clause be omitted,
and that would raise the question whether the commissioners
should be paid zommissioners, nominated by the government,
and carrying on their proceedings away from the influence of
that house and from the public eye ; or whether they
should be, as they ought to be, under the immediate super-
vision of the house, and under the public eye ? Let them
wad, if it were necessary, till those witnesses who were con.
sealed could be produced. Ile now moved that this clause be
omitted,and if he succeeded he should then substitute another
clause, which should name other commissioners, members
of that house, and selecting those who had been members
of the late committee, if they would accept the service. If
they refused, he would engage to find five members of the
house who would accept the functions, and prove that they
could form a tribune' competent to try questions of thus
nature. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. E. ELLICE, jun., having defended the bill,
Mr. FRESIIFIELD said he should vote against the
clause.
The committee then divided, and the numbers were—
For the clause 66
Against it l7-49
The several clause+, with verbal amendments were then
agreed to, and a new clause was added empowering the
Treasury to remunerate the commission as seemed most ad-

visable..
The house then resumed.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. JOHNSTONE, the newly-elected member for the
counties of Kinross and Clackmannan, took the oaths and
his seat.
•

The bon. member was introduced by Sir 11. Verney and
Mr. Elliot.
AYLESBURY ELECTION.
The Serjeant-at-Arius appeared at the bar, and stated
that John Strutt and Charles Cunningham were in his
custody.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that John Strutt
and Charles Cunningham be brought to the bar of the
house, and reprimanded by the Speaker, and then to be dis-
charged. Mr. Strutt and Mr. Cunningham, from their posi-
tion, ought to have been aware of the provisions of the act,
and oughttohave known that they were nut atoll warranted
in the procedure of which they had been guilty.
The motion having been agreed to, John Strutt and
Charles Cunningham were brought to the bar in the cus-
tody of the Sergeant-at-Arms.
The SPEAKER addressed them in these terms : You,
John Strutt and Charles Cunningham, have been found
guilty of forwarding a petition which was presented to this
house on the 28th of April last, purporting to be signed
by Thomas Bradford. Now it appears from the report of
the select committee, who examined carefully into the mat-
ter, that you, John Strutt, under the sanction, and at the
instigation of your partner, Charles Cunningham,
did most unwarrantably and culpably affix the name
in question to that petition. It is the duty of this house
to protect the right of petition from abuse, and it is deter-
mined by the just exercise of its authority to check any
practices which, by casting doubts on its privileges, have a
tendency to lessen their value and importance. According
to the ancient rules of this house it is a breach of its privi-
leges for one person to affix the name of another to any pe-
tition presented to it. In your case the excuse of igno-
rance cannot be pleaded. But as the house is at all
times inclined to exercise the utmost leniency, consistent
with the support of its dignity and authority, and as the
house is willing to hope, that you repent of the act of which
you have been guilty, the house is willing to believe that you
have been already sufficiently punished in the exposure to
which you have been subject. I am commanded by the
house to convey to you the expression of their displeasure,
and I therefore now reprimand you, and acquaint you, that
you are discharged front custody on payment of the fees.
Mr. Strutt—Allow me ono word. I regret very much—,
The SPEAKER interrupted Mr. Strati, and said he
could not be beard.
The prisoners were then removed.
PREVENTION OF OFFENCES BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
The several clauses of the bill were agreed to, with some
verbal amendments.
The house then resumed, and at half-past 3 adjourned
until 6 o'clock.

The SegaKea resumed the chair at five o'clock.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Petitions were presented by Mr. ELLIS, from Lei-
cester; Mr. COBDEN, from Bury (Lancashire), Eye,
South Pethcrton, Halstead, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, from a
congregation of Baptists at Boston (Lincolnshire), and from
inhabitants of Halifax, Egerton (Lancashire), Tureen (Lan-
cashire), Rochester, and Ipswich ; and Mr. LOVEDEN,
from Aberystwith, in favour of international treaties for the
mutual reduction of armaments.
Tag Battor.—Mr. H. BERKELEY postponed his
motion on the ballot till the Bth of July.
TH6 NAVIGATION LAW REPEAL Act —Mr. lIERRIES,
gave notice to move, ,pn Tuesday next, au address to the
crown, praying her Majesty to give such direc-
tions as might seem meet for giving effect to that
provision of the act repealing the navigation laws
whereby her Majesty was empowered to adopt with
respect to those nations which continued to give any
preference to vessels of their own nation over British ves-
sels, either directly or indirectly, such measures as might
' appear to her Majesty necessary to countervail the disad-
I vantages to which British vessels were thus subjected. The
hon. gentleman said he gave this notice less in the hope of
being able to bring on the motion on the day he had named,
than of making some arrangement with the government,
whereby a time might be fixed for its coming on.
TRANSPORTATION.—Mr. ANSTEY, to move an amend-
ment on the motion of Sir W. Molesworth, praying that
transportation to Van Diemen's Land should immediately
cease.
TUT Rtnirst DOM:M.—Mr. BRIGHT, on the grant to
protestant dissenting ministers, commonly called the
&giant Donuns, being proposed in the miscellaneous esti-
mates, to move the withdrawal of that grant.
HARWICH ELECTION.
Mr. BANKES moved that the petition which he had
preunted on the preceding day from the electors of Har-
wich should be printed with the votes, and stated that on
Friday he should submit • motion to the house thereon, as
a question of privilege.
Sir DE L. }.VANS rose to order. Ile submitted that the
petition was not a proper one to be printed, as the merits of
the Harwich election had been referred to a parliamentary
committee.
After a few words from Mr. RANCES and Mr. ILATrza,
Mr. BANKES said be would now merely move that the
petition should be printed with the votes ; and he would
take the sense of the house upon that motion.
After some discussion,
Mr. BANKES withdrew the motion, stating that he
should renew it if in the mean time the petition was not
printed by order of the committee on petitions.
THE ST. ALBANS ELECTION.—IMPRISONMENT
OF EDWARDS.
Mr. SPOONER moved that Henry Edwards, now con-
fined in Newgate by reason of his agency in the removal of
certain witnesses, whose evidence was required by the St.
Alban's Election Committee, from the jurisdiction of the
house, be brought to the bar this day to be discharged. Ed-
wards, he said, now came before the house with a full, ab-
solute, and complete confession of his guilt, throwing him-
self upon the mercy of the house, pleading that his pro-
longed confinement would be ruinous to his affairs, and
pledging himself to appear and give evidence before any
tribunal.

Mr. flume, the Attorney-General, Sir G. Grey, and Mr.
Anatey spoke against the motion, which Mr. Newdogate
supported.
The house then divided:

i.;14;713p00n erVnotion
Against

CEYLON.
On returning to the gallery, we found
Mr. HUME addressing a question to the Under-Secretary
for the Colonies, in reference, as we understood, to certain
proceedings in Ceylon connected with Captain Watson, and
wishing to know when the papers would be laid on the
table ?
Mr. HAWES stated, in reply, that as yet they had not
been received, though expected; but, when 'Traced, they
would be laid ou the table.
MALT TAX.
Mr. BASS, in submitting the motion of which he had
given notice, the repeal of half the malt tax, after the 10th

October, 1852,
possessed by other nations at the same
elfeberitte cossideration of the question at pressat. But he of naval strength
the
said he would Mai at proms eater Into any j only natural course of regulating the force by the amount
that his proposition did not, in any way, involve the also on the same occasion, after showing
that the naval ex-
ex tressed h
should take the earliest opportunity of assuring the house time. And the noble lord ut the headgovernment
alluding and it had never
with that view, named a day beyond the financial 1 been the custom to allude, to wrhitemeigeht be the military
revenues of the current financial year. Not desiring that penditure of France had greatly increased, im.
his proposition should involie those revenues, he had, , self to this effect, that he was not g,
year, • namely, the 10th of October, 1852, and force of foreign countries, and he_ dd. not advert
Exchequer might make himself easy on
on and ought to be brought within
therefore the right bon. gentleman the CthhaantcpoellionrtofTthhee I
ftoortheigenstmanuttnigya;rzyt
akgeprLutpinicnre/LacnienethoreiA,
nuastvryia,,atior.aarti.y.
Wile he then wished to try was, whether the house was did require the attention, , _
i oefluulthislucooteduntthryefsiexePrrgheeirs
redabraliond, at
tf
theany dpuetyriolmtaol
France and
hera wasnotthe naval pro•
proceeding
on a
t entertain
(Hear,
hteheer.)qulenstiborniegiofega
tothesho knowledge
tthat
thef the
governmentho u ae.
of
dua be bad no desire whatever to embarrass her Majesty's ceedings of other nations, and
forward this motion he wished to impress it on the house,
government. On the contrary, he had been many years baseless nesump tion when he said that this had been the
There were two
as bumble, but earnest, supporter of the present ministry. policy of the two countries. grievances. to
navy according tor the force k
• e denied that. Ho policy, and tended to increase the evil on both melee.
a brewers and malsters question. H
that had been done had been grounded
It had been objected to his proposition, that it was allege against that policy ; the first that it. was an irritating
bad not been asked by any one brewer to submit the Almost eeeryt
The countries didnot consult or by
The hono ble member appealed to the published foreign country.
opinion of the Speaker himself, contained in a pam- nicest° with oue another, hut persons were sent out to get
proposition, whilst the maltaters deprecated it altogether. upon exaggeratedi'll
notions of what had been done a
e barley andland captains who were abroad made reports of what was
of this duty would relieve the producer of the
phi t printed some years since to show that the reduction information in a surreptitious way , and then the admirals
consumer of beer without entailing any serious loss to the going on, in which he saw the traces of' great exaggeration.
exchequer. The right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of Onr navy estimates were greatly increased in 1815 and
the Exchequer said, on a former occasion, in reply to the 1846. The French were alarmed ; a committee was ap-
bon. member for the North Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. pointed in the Chamber of fevers, and a report was made
Caylcy), that a reduction of duty was not always produc- from that committee by Baron Dupin, in which lee said
tiro of benefit to the consumer, and alleged, as the that he had to announce a great scheme of the English
season for the falling off in the consumption of beer, government which would have a great effect on foreign
that the taste of the people for their favourite countries—that, under the modest pretence of protecting
commerce, they were converting trading vessels into
ditsteceedrsgein had diminished. dtihmierneish
was e d Now,eor whenenormous
i increase
dutyin
n thew a se
erce
an ships of war; that eight line-of-hattle ships had
gumption of beer. The consumption
had reached its been built is one year, and would probably he
highest point. After 1836 it declined, but that was owing doubled in another. Ile (Mr. Cobden) had stated
to the circumstances that tea, coffee, and cocoa had that the discussion of 1818 had led to a very great in-
been brought into greater competition with beer. People crease of the French navy, and he would give an illustra-
could not drink all manner of things and in the same pro- tion of the wily in which this principle operated on the one
portion. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Although in country and the other, and reacted in England. lie had
1812 there were only 4,185,000 quarters of malt consumed, shown that in 1815 and 1848, we had increased our navy
and in 1817 only 4,200,000 quarters, yet in 1850 there were by a million sterling, and that in 1846 the French chem.
5,300,000 quarters consumed, being more than 1,000,000 bees voted an increase amounting to a hundred million
quarters over the consumption of 1847. The taste of the francs. But again, excited by the example of France, our
people for intoxicating beers had diminished, and they now navy was increased ; and to show the action and reaction
drank beers of a more moderate strength, so that the con- upon this country, as well as France, he would quote
sumption of light beers had considerably increased. He a sentence from the speech of Mr Ward, then secretary
now brewed 10 barrels of light beer to one barrel of strong to the Admiralty, in support of the increase. Mr. Wprri said
beer, and where he formerly brewed three barrels of strong that the naval prececelings of France ought to be a lesson
beer they did not now brew one. (Hear, hear.) It was a to us, and that they imposed a heavy responsibility upon
remarkable fact that beer had not changed its price for 21 those who had power in this country. So that when
years. Whether the price of barley was 305., 60e., or the France had made a great increase of her navy in terror of
average price of 335. tkl., the price of beer was always the the preparations which she saw making in this country, the
same. (Laughter.) There wasa reason for that stability of Secretary of the Admiralty proposed an augmentation of
price with respect to beer which did not apply to all trades. our naval force on the plea that the French were increasing
In the spring of 1847, when the price of barley was 5.55., theirs. Ile held in his hand an extract from a report of a
they tried to advance the price of beer, but it did not last committee of the National Assembly of France in 1819,
ten days, for the retail dealers came in a body. to the which was to the effect that they must see whether
brewers, and told them that they could not alter their retail the foreign force really showed them an exam-
prices; that they (the brewers) must take an average profit plo of increasing the naval armament of France.
and loss, and set the gain of one year against the loss of That very year England had voted 43.000 men for the sea
another. Now if the retail dealers would not be satisfied service. } twice contented herself with 21 sail of the line,
with a change for one year, he would put it to the hon. while the English had 70 afloat, besides those which were
member for Sussex, who had an amendment upon his mo- building. Ile next came to the right hon. gentleman who
tion, whether they would submit toe change every quarter was now, in 1851, at the head of the Admiralty, and he
of a year fur five years, which must be the result if his pro- might tell the house that the remark lie was about to refer
position for " reducing the rate of duty by 11d. per bushel to, which was made by that right lion. gentleman, had in-
every quarter of a year till the whole was repealed," was duced him (Mr. Colden) to bring forward this motion. The
carried. Another objection to the amendment of the bon. right hon. gentleman had said it seas impossible to fix upon
gentleman was that, us the traders would require an allow- what was necessary for our own naval establishment with-
ance for the duty on the stock on hand, the stock would out looking at the establishments of foreign countries, and
have to be taken every three months, and how was it he might observe that a people not far off from ourselves
possible to do that ? He would now show that the revenue did not neglect their naval power. The right hon. gentle-
would not belikcly to suffer from areduction of the maltduty. man then gave a description of Cherbourg, and a formidable
Mr. Bass then went on to support his position that if the account of the preparations there. In the Fiench Chamber
excise were diminished a large increase would take place in on the 11th of April, a month or two after the hon. gentle-
the demand for malt, adulteration would be discouraged, man had spoken here, reference was made to the naval
I and while the enhanced consumption would in great meet- preparations making in this country, and the necessity of
sure replace the revenue on its present scale, the public not leaving the most important spots on the French
would obtain a genuine article at a cheaper rate. coast in a defenceless state, considering the vast
Mr CAMPBELL opposed the motion, avowing that he works which the British government was executing
would prefer a 2s. duty upon corn to a mutilation of the in Jersey and Alderney, which should be made
malt tax. an example for the establishments of France.
Mr. FREWEN said that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bass) The English steam navy was increasing every day, and they
*lust be aware that the great point with the agriculturists must be upon their guard against that powerful enemy at
was to have the malt tax altogether repealed. lie wished their own doors. Such was the feeling excited in France
therefore to know from the hon. gentleman whether his by the proceedings in this country. The best thing the
motion was to be taken as a step towards a total repeal? house had done was to stop the works and fortifications in
Mr. BASS said that he had twice voted for the total re- Alderney, which were an affront to Frauce, and specially
peal, and it was because the motions for total repeal had meant as rivalry to Cherbourg. Cherbourg, as everybody
been defeated that he now made the present proposition. knew, was a most useful, valuable, and indispen-
(Hear, hear.) sable port of refuge for merchant ships—the most
Mr. FREWEN said in that case he would not move his valuable on that coast, and so valuable that the port of
amendment. (Hear.) Cherbourg might have been made by the subscriptions of
Mr. ALCOCK assumed that the tax had been already all the maritime nations of Europe. It was under the influ-
given up upon principle, and was retained solely for the once of a panic that the works at Killian', which were to
sake of revenue. He suggested, as a partial reimburse- cost 1,200,0001., were begun, and the works at Jersey and
ment for any possible loss by the reduction of the malt duty, Alderney. Those at Alderney would cost four times as much
the imposition of an import duty on Peruvian guano, which as the fee simple of the island was worth. England had
could damage no one except the government of the pro- not the monopoly of the folly of these things. France ran
clueing country, who kept in their own hands a complete an eager rivalry with us. It was stated in a pamphlet
monopoly of the trade, and sold it here at 91. per ton, written by M. Michel Chalons (as we understood)—written
whereas it might be delivered at 51. 10e. with the view of stopping this national rivalry in waste and
Sir W. JOLLIFFE, ,pleading the severe distress of folly—that whilst England had projected works which had
the agriculturists, entreated the house to abolish the malt cost front ten to eleven millions eterlinge, France had at the
tax altogether. If the hon. member for Derby divided, he game time projected works to the seine amount ; and he
should go with him into the lobby, but it would be with a showed that from 1837 to 1818 England and France had
full determination to aim at effecting a change in the whole mutually augmented their naval expenditure to the extent
system of taxation. of from twelve to fourteen millions sterling, and that the
After a few remarks from Mr. L. Ilerworerit, who sup- amount thug expended by one country was within a few
ported the motion, hundred thousand pounds of that expeuded by the other.
Mr. FRESHFIELD submitted that no boon would be Assuming that there had been this spirit of rivalry
conferred on the Carmen by reducing the malt tax, unless between the two countries, then came the question
they were aseurred that the duties which must be imposed was there a remedy fur it ? Was it possible to
to supply the vacuum in the revenue would prove less in- bring the human reason to bear on this matter
furious in operation. at all. History already afforded us a pattern for his
Mr. SANDAItS also opposed the motion. suggested remedy. In 1817 a convention was en-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said altered into between England and America, limiting,
though the motion before the house differed in form from and practically removing altogether, the armed force
that which was recently negatived by a majority of two to severally maintained on the frontier lakes of Canada.
one, yet substantially and in spirit it was the same ; and if France was the only state they had to consider, and he
be wanted evidence of that he would find it in the declam- asked again was it impracticable that something like the
tion of the hon. member for Peter/Meld (Sir W. Jolliet?), same rule could be adopted with regard to France, as we
that he would not support the motion unless he believed it had with regard to America, or were we to go on as/infini-
te be a steppingstone to the repeal of the malt tax. By lam wasting our resources in the way we dill now ? lie
adopting this motion, however, one of the advantages con- might be told that the state of the times was not favourable
nected with the malt tax would be entirely lost, namely, to ouch an experiment as this. Ile thought this was the
the raising of so large an amount of revenue at as proper moment. Ile might hr told that this was a period
cheap a rate. There was no similar amount of taxa- threatening war; he thought that the experience of the last
tion raised so cheaply. Having stated his views on this three orfouryeareshowed that nations were disposed topeace.
subject, when it was recently introduced by his hon. friend Well, then, the lion. gentleman proceeded to say, what was
the member for the West Riding, he confessed that he was the use of keeping up su enormous a naval power ?
in some difficulty. being unwilling to repeat the arguments Did any one suppose that France would be less willing to
which he had used before. He was not quite satisfied with the reduce its burdens, or rather its deficit, than this country?
substitute which his hon. friend the member for East Surrey He had had opportunities of conversing with the statesmen
had suggested in lieu of the 5,000,0001 raised by a of France, and he had put it to them as he had put it to our
tax on malt. Ile very much doubted whether the agri- own statesmen in private, and the answer had been that the
culturists would be much benefited by the exclusion of plan he proposed was the very best thing for them, and it
a rich and beneficial manure through the imposition of would give them the. greatest possible relief. If our govern-
a duty equal to the present cost; while, if he imposed a ment made a frieudly proposition to the French govern-
prohibitory duty it was clear that the exchequer would not meat they were sure of meeting with a cordial welcome. In
be benefited. lie (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not this case there was no sacrifice of pride on the part of Eng
the slightest doubt that if this motion were carried, the land, as the French admitted that they did not attempt to
price of every description of beer would remain the same. rival England un the seas, but they wieleed to make a re-
Under these circumstances he did not think it would be spectable defence. And this brought him to what he con-
wigs in the house to sacrifice '2,500,0001. any more than it ceived was the strongest reason of all why this system
would be wise to remit the whole tax. should be abolished. It was that this spirit of rivalry was
Mr. NEWDEGATE disapproved of the proposal to mu- displayed by two countries so equal in point of resources,
tilate the tax. Ile had supported the motion for total re- t eking army and navy together, that it was impossible for
peal, believing that such a relief would be sufficient to jus- the one country ever permanently to gain an advantage
tify the trouble of fielding a substitute for the duty. over the other. It they were dealing with two countries
Mr. BROTHERTON objected to every scheme that could one of which must be much etronger than the other, and
encourage the consumption of an intoxicating fluid. which adjoined each other, and in which there was a gees-
Some conversation ensued between Mr. Drummond, Mr. tion of territory, he might despair, but in the case of Eng-
Hume, and Col. Sibthorp. land and France this mutual rivalry was only an intima-
Mr. BASS shortly replied, and the house divided— tion of homage and respect to the power of the other. lie
For the motion
Against 76-45 had to say on this subject. He did not ask hint to do tide
INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION. in any specific form. A proposal was made by Adam
Mr. COBDEN, in rising to propose the motion of which Young towards the middle of the lust century when tra-
he had given notice, said he did not wish to discuss or en- yelling in France, that France and England should take
tertain the amount of the armies maintained on the Conti- their respective navies outinto the Cll4llllel and burn them.
sent. When he spoke in his resolution of warlike prepare- He (Mr. Cobden) did not propose that they should buru
tions In time of peace in France and England, he alluded to their fleet. All he asked was that they should
anti ations and to fortifications. It was well endeavour to effect a diminution iu the force, and
kaowalLer Our armies bore no reference to the armies on at all events that they should show some wee.
the Continent. There could be nn comparison between had been taken to prevent that waste from mutual rivalry
them. Ile was anxious that this should be die- which was now carried on. Ile should be told, perhaps,
tinctly understood; because, in speaking of the that this was an affair for public opinion. The operations of
enormous armies which were the standing curse individual enterprise and public opinion were doing much to
of the present generation, a question arose which bring France and England together.He remembered when he
was complicated by considerations of a purely do- was in business in Lon lon, '25 years ago, they lad only two
mestic character, for large armies on the continent were not posts in a week between England and lerance, and that it
maintained fur the purpose of repelling foreign enemies, took 34 hours to transmit a letter. It now took 11 hours.
but to repress domestic commotion. He wished also Formerly no man could be heard in our towns and villages
to be understood that his present motion was confined to talking a foreign language but that the villager passing
entering into a negotiation with France, that the him would call him a Frenchman and very likely insult
example might be afterwards followed by other coun- him. They had seen a great change. No ono would have
tries which kept up armies. Ile presumed all would said some years ago that they would ever see what they
admit that a naval force beyond that which was were now seeing. They saw in this city men from
necessary for the police of the sea was an evil. (Mar.) all countries of the world. It was more like a
But it would be said that this naval force was necessary gathering of nations in former times when they came up for
because other countries were armed as well as we were, a great religious festival. They find here men of all na-
and that it was necessary we should be protected against tions, speaking various languages and having various habits
other powers. But, granting that, and assuming that a come together and meeting together iu a common temple
certain force was maintained by France and by England, erected for their reception and gratification. (Cheers.) Ile
not for the purpose of protecting commerce and acting as asked that the government of this country should put itself
the police of the seas, but with the object of keeping up in harmony with the spirit of the age, and to endeavour to
a military attitude towards each other, then he raid do something to follow up that which was being done ill
that was a position of unmitigated evil, and not only some measure by private enterprise and public opinion.
a pure waste of the money that was expended The hon. gentleman concluded by moving an "Address to
for the purpose, but that it would be better far for pur- her Majesty, praying that she will direct the Secretary of
poses of economy that that amount of money phould be State for foreign Affairs to enter into communication with
thrown into the sin, for that amount of labour which was the government of France, and endeavour to prevent in
now kept on board these Olive of war would be liberated future that rivalry of warlike preparation in time of pence,
and more profitably employed. He was not in the habit of which has hitherto been the policy of the two governments,
troubling the house with quotations, but the evidence he and to promote, if possible, a mutual reduction of alma-
had to produce must consist of one or two meats."
quotations. The first was taken from a debate Mr. URQUHART moved as an amendment, " That it is
ta the Chamber of Deputies it. France, in 1846, when it was inexpedient, by resolutions of this house, to move the
proposed to vote one hundred millions of francs for a Crown to originate negotiations on abstract questions." lie
government augmentation of the navy, which was effected thought that instead of casting aside musty diplomacy,
with reference to an augmentation of our navy just pre- it was new-fangled diplomacy that they should east out.
viously. The hon. member then quoted the speech of M. With respect to the motion before them, be accepted the
offensive France w
ea s
referunde underconsiderationeAustria,
Prussia,
iya
eorr eßtunhiniiaitwwheotile
ddebeti.
sonegmouticahtioinnsoppsommituiocnh
to
ot
Thiers, to the general effect that there was nothing offen- hon. member's substantive proposition; but he appealed to
sive to England in citing her example when the navy of him whether he would confide to the noble lord the task of
berating on the strength of the French army. On the Mr. MACKINNON had listened with great attention to
alvlahriaisnicniestwwitihteheeisdecharacter, and
contrary, France paid a compliment to England in the speech of the hon. member for the West Riding, and
thinking of her when determining the amount of naval Ihe considered that that speech, and the efforts which the
force to be maintained. Those were the remarks of hon. gentleman had also made to promote a feeling of cor-
[M. There, when he proposed a larger augmentation of the diality between this and the continental powers, did him
French navy than even the government had demanded. infinite credit. (Hear, hear.) Ile thought the matter might
He would next quote the authority of the noble lord at the safely be left to the noble lord, who had shown his love of
head of the foreign department, as he found it in the peace by having so carefully avoided war. (Cheers.)
ispeech of the noble lord in the debate on the financial Viscount PALMERSTON, in opposing the motion,
scheme of the prime minister in 1148, when the noble lord begged the hon. gentleman not to suppose that he wished
said that, so far from affording any cause of offence to to express, or that he was actuated by any feelings or prin-
France by this augmentation of our navy, any one who ciples at variance with the fundamental principles upon
lowed the debates in the French chamber would see they whicbhis pmpostion had been founded. However much
had opted exactly the same wane, thus adopting tho he (the noble lord) dillexed from his hon. friend (if he

mace ; sad. se fat is 4skletter slip con-, fact * districts then, wait no itiSenity
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ry win pinowl So , 'nip* -*eq. • t'vrith* rilbert
a oven disk , . ws,AWAI litf—Pl7s very leer sm.
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buiwwo perk whictnash boa wales, ege
sers a* • , the ward se as the inward
inn ia ow annin trade, thin, nlliaigiaii en I,9oilass is s
Ir own. Main alai be MOT* fair. Hui arleisibra Isirodeased r% vim& Pled
y 41816#1, eta essang wad•—th• inn la the assessa ; sami siAsk, s
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