The Express.
London, England, 1853-08-10 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 10, 1853.

was restricted to offences of the more serious and flagrant
character, while secondary punishments were subs,ituted for
the greatest number of cases. But the question of secon-
dary punishments was also one of extreme difficulty.
Now, owing to our extensive colonial possessions
we had hitherto been enabled to dispose of our,
effenden who were subject to secondary ptinishmenn
by transporting them beyond the seas, after a certain
period of preliminary imprisonment at home; but we I
are now reduced to the necessity of altering that system. I
In the first place, those colonies to which hitherto our
offenders had been transported have become thriving and ,
wealthy commuuities, and their feelings had led them to ,
rivolt against being, as they conceived „ made the recep-
flea' of criminais„ who were deemed uufit to be lilt in the •
mother country. Whether this feeling was unfounded or nut
it was unnecessary to inquire ; we had conceded to these
colonies the principle of self-government, and having made
that concession we must submit to its cons, Tame, The
refusal of these communities to receive henceforward the
criminals sent from this country would of itself be suf-
ficient to compel es to alter our system. But, indepen-
dently of that consideration, a great event had happened
in these colonies, and even if the colonists themselves bad
made no objection to receiving convicts, this great event
alone would necessarily have led to a reconstruction of the
previously existing s- stem. Because, although it was ad-
visable to send the criminal out of his native 'country to
pass a certain period of qualified servitude in a foreign
land, and to follow up that qualified servitude
by a conditional pardon, involving the necessity
of perpetual banishment from his own native coun-
try, and although it was a punishment which had a
great influence upon the minds of both the accused per-
sons and their families, as well as their friends and neigh•
hours ; yet when it turned out that the lands to which
these criminals were sent were places where wealth
abounded beyond the previous imagination of man, where
the exercise of a small amount of manual labour was likely
to create a splendid fortune for the man who employed it,
the aspect of things became entirely changed. If the only
object was to provide • place of detention for offenders during
• period in which they were to be kept under a qualified
imprisonment there would be no difficulty whatever. No-
thing would be easier than the establishment of such a
penal colony in the Falkland Islands ' • nothing would be
easier than the establishment of suet • colony much
nearer home, where the expense of sending out the offenders
would be infinitely less and the expense of keeping them
not so considerable. But the object which had hitherto been
sought for by transportation, and which he thought he
might venture to say had in • great degree been hitherto
fouad, was the subsequent reformation of the culprit.
Well, then, he was afraid that we had no choice at
present, at least, except to make up our minds that that
portion of our offenders who might be sentenced to
transportation, and who, under the former system, would
be sent to the colonies with ticket of leave and the
hope of conditional pardon, must be partly dealt
with in some other . Well, then, be could assure
the house, that the great subject of reformation had not
been lost sight of by the government, or those
who preceded them in office, nor could he think with re-
tried to a great portion of persons sentenced to diff.rent
periods of transportation, that reformation was by any
means a hopeless object to aim at. There was nothing
which bad struck him more forcibly, in the short period
during which he had had the honour to- preside over the
Home Department, than the great diversity of punishment •
allotted by different authorities, to offences which he might
say were of the same kind, or rather to the extreme variety •
of judgments exercised by different courts, in allotting
punishments for offences. What he meant was this—on I
the one hand he had frequently observed very severe punish- 4
ments inflicted, for what sppeared to him to be compare-
tively • trifling offence : while, oa the other hand, otfences I
of • much g character bad been treated to • much 4
lighter punishment. This was an evil which must necessarily
arise from the various judgments of men, and when they
considered the great number of courts before which crimi-
nals were from day to day brought, it was impossible that
they should not expect, either from the diversity of judg-
menta or from circumstances known to the court at the

time, which could not be recorded upon their proceedings,
but which, tireless, influenced the judgment, that
there should he an apparent inequality in the punishments
inflicted. Fortunately, however, the constitution provided
• remedy for these cases in an appeal to the S.cretary of
State, whose duty it was to inquire into each matters and
decide whether there were any instances where the
severity of the punishment could be mitigated without *-
jury to the public. The inference to be drawn from this was
that a great number of those persons who were sentenced
to periods of transportation had not committed crimeed
such magnitude as indicated such a degree of moral de-
pravity as to prevent any great ree.irmatioa of either their
minds or characters, and every effort had unquestionably
been made for the purpose of accomplishing that object.
But then, when these persons were to be released upon this
conditional ticket-of-leave system, the great question imme-
diately occurred, what were they to do, where were they to
go in the hope or expectation of obtaining employment ? Be-
cause there was, of course, in the minds of men a disincli-
nation to employ persons who had been sentenced
by the law for °lleum. Men would prefer, if
they could find such agents, those agaiust whom
no charge, no delinquency, had been establi•hcd.
The apprehension teit, then, was this, it you released at
once persons of this description, though they might carry
with them some little accumulation of wages earned by them
in their work during the period of their imprisonment, yet
that money would soon be gone, and, from the difficulty
which they would find in obtaining honest employment,
they might be driven back to their old associates, or laps*
into those habits which had rendered them amenable to the
law in the first immune. Upon consulting, however, with
those who had charge of this particular department, ho had
reason to think that there could be found, and there would
be found, means for giving to all these persons employment
upon the public works separate from the convicts, and
the, placing them in this country in a state ot transi-
tion in some degree analogous to the one in which
they would have been placed in the colonies. And thus
these released convicts might, during the period of-their
ticket of leave service, find employment which would not
attach any stigma to their character, and from which they
might easily slide into the ordinary avocations of industry
in the country. So far, therefore, as that consideration
west, he hoped and believed that ample means would be
found for smoothing the passage from the condition of the
convict to the condition of the free and honest labourer.
(Hear, hear.) Welt, then, another objection which had
been raised to this plan was this. It was anticipated that
the detention of se many convicts in this country would
naturally lead to an additional expense being thrown upon
the counties from the necessity which would arise for pro-
viding places for them. Upon that point, however, her
Majesty's government felt it to be their duty entirely to
relieve the apprehensions of the counties, because it would
be the duty of the government, aad it would be in their
power to do so, to provide, at the public espense, every
additional accommodation which this altered system might
require for the custody of the criminals daring the period
of time that they would be undergoing their various terms
of imprisonment. it would be perfectly unjust that a
change of which they were totally independent, and io
which they could have had no hand or choice whatever,
should subject the counties of England to any additional
expense whatever ; but, as he had already stated, no such
apprehension as that need be entertained for • single
moment. Well, then, generally speaking, that was the
nature of the change which the government proposed. It
was a change, as he had said, not resulting from any will or
choice of the government; but it was a change imposed
upon the government by the course of events, and
which appeared to him to be • mode of meeting the
course of events the least liable of any that ho was aware of
to objection. There were a great number of public works
connected with harbours of refuge and defensive works on
the coast, on which employment might be found for a
great length of time, both for those convicts who were still
working out their sentences, aad for those who were sen-
tenced to hard labour, and for those who might be in the
condition of ticket of leave men. Those operations would
be well performed by these men, and he believed that those
habits of industry might be cultivated in them which would
eventually tend to their future reformation. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the general• question of expense even
making allowance for the expense of providing additional
accommodation at home for the convicts, the change would
still be found to produce a considerable saving of public
money, because if they set on the one hand the cost of
erecting additional accommodation for an increased
number of convicts, together with the charge for
the maintenance at home, and placed on the
other side of the account the cost of sending
these convicts abroad, and maintaining them in the
colonies, it would be shown that • considerable annual
saving would in the end result to the public from the
change. That, of course, was not an ingredient in the de-
cision which parliament might come to, but, at all events,
it was an incidental circumstance, which was so far satis-
factory as to show that a chance which our necessities im-
posed upon us would not be attended with any additional
expense, at least to the public. (Hear, hear.) In conclu-
sion, he invited attention to this bill. It had been framed
with a good deal of attention; though no doubt the
whole system must be considered as experi-
mental, in a great degree. If, in the working
ef it, fresh suggestions should occur, or other im-
provements should appear likely to be easily accomplished,
then her Majesty's government would be most happy to re-
ceive any suggestions from others, and to profit by the
lessons of experience ; but he believed, on the whole, that
this was the best mode that could be devised for meeting
that great change in circumstances which prevent us from
pursuing the course which had hitherto been followed.
Mr. WALPOLE (who was very indistinctly heard) said
he agreed almost so entirely with all that had fallen from
the noble viscount, that he would not detain the house at
any length, but would only refer to one or two points which
he thought ought to be considered. It was clear that
transportation must cease ; not only on account of the oo-
lonise, hot also from the altered circumstances of Aus-
tralia, which induced convicts to prefer going there to any
other punishment. Not long ago at Gibraltar, an outrage
was committed by some convicts on a keeper, for the pur-
pose of their getting themselves sent to Australia.
These facts ought to be borne in mind when
considering the prudence of doing away with transportation.
If that was to be done, the difficult question arose, how
were the convicts to be dealt with. He concurred
almost entirely with the plan proposed by the noble viscount.
He did not think it would be prudent to create new penal
settlements, for the reasons so forcibly stated by tho noble
viscount. Again, if it was intended that reformation of
criminals should be effected, it could only be done by
putting them into a country where the moral character of the
population was far above that of the convicts. Besides, if
new penal settlements abroad were crested the expense
would be so great, that supposing that provision could be
made for convicts at home, in an economical, as well as in
a moral point of view, the mode proposed by the noble lord

. was altogether excellent. Looking at the systems of punish-
ment, it would be found that one system had done more for
the reformation of criminals than any other, and that was
their employment on public works. The expense of trans-
, portation: wm about 200,000/. a year, and that of prisons
still greater, but public works, such as the
I noble harbour of Portland, were self suppott-
ing. In 1849, the profitable labour on that
I work amounted to 9,2141. ; in 1850, to 14,0671. ; in 1851,
Ito 20,5411. While in 1852, the earnings had far exceeded
the cost of the establishment. Such employment on works,
as harbours of refuge in this country and the Channel
Islands, would be a lasting benefit to the country, and do
more towards the reformation of convicts than tn.,. ctiler
• plan. For these remelts he concurred generally In all that
had been said by the noble lord. The noble lord would,
palms, allow him to observe on two points which bad oc-
correct to his mind in reading the bill. The first was, that
. by the second clause transportation was done away with
altogether where the sentence was shorter than 14 years.
He doubted whether the law ought to be framed in that
manner, and he thought it would be better to leave to the
crown the power of commuting sentences of transportation
fur periods of penal servitude. If the bill became law as it
now stood, it would be impossible to pass • sentence
of transportation for seven or ten years. Ile should
propose to leave out the first and second clause-, and let
the third clause contain a discretion in courts to sentence
either o transportation, or to hard servitude. That was
the more important, as tho only penal colony left was
Western Australia, which having a population of only
10,000, it was doubtful whether employment could be found
there for the 800 convicts it was proposed to send there,
and as there was a demand foe convict labour at Moreton
Bay, you ought net to tie up the hands of the crown so as
to prevent sending out convicts, if it was found necessary.
Then with regard to dealing with ticket of leave convicts.
In order to work out that system, there must be a control
over the criminal, and when once a portion of his pueish-
ment bad been remitted, and he afterwards committed any
similar offence as that for which he was punished, he
ought to be subject to a higher class of punishment. He
(Itir. Walpole) would suggest that in the 10th and
11th clauses, provisoes should be added, providing that
when a conditional pardon had been granted to a criminal
and he abused the mercy of the crown, there should be
awarded to him • higher dtgree of punishment, such as
would have been awarded to a higher crime than that he
had originally committed. Ile would not further detain
the house, but would express his concurrence in the pro-
priety and policy of this measure, and he hoped it would
contribute not merely to the abolition of that which was •
galling infitetion on the colonies, but, if properly and vigo-
rously carried out, contribute materially to the reformation
of criminals.
Sir J. WALMSLHY suggested that there was • part of
the coast near Liverpool where a large number of convicts
might be employed. There was a great depth of water at
Douglas, in the Isle of Man, where the government had
bad some idea of forming •,harbour of refuge, which would
be a great advantage to the Scotch coasts aad to Liverpool.
He recommended this work the more because the Isle of
Man contributed • large sum to the revenue of this country,
on condition that • harbour of refuge should be built.
Besides which, by the recent Consolidation of Customs
Act, • ninth part of the revenues of the Isle of Man
was to be employed on her harbours. There would bo
great advantage in the government carrying out such a
work.

Mr. A. PE LLATT would be glad to know what was the in-
tentions of the noble viscount with regard to the adjustment
of the employment of convicts. The noble lord had men-
tioned public works, and as far as it went that plan was
excellent. lie wished, however, to call the attention of the
noble lord to the prison at Cork, where malefactors were so
beneficially employed that they obtained funds for their
own sustenance, and were enabled when set free to obtain
an honest livelihood. The farm system, the separate sys-
tem, the aggregate systems and the manufacturing system—
were all combined in the systems at Cork.
Sir J. l'A K I NO TON thought there was reason to complain
of the government in bringing forward a subject of such ex-
treme importance, and which had caused a strong feeling
in the country, at a moment which precluded the possibi-
lity of a satisfactory discussion. He (Sir J. Pakington)
had always advocated the value of transportation as a
secondary punishment; he had seen its effects, and
under different circumstances he thought it admirably
answered the purpose of the first secondary punish•
ment slier that of death. But, as things were, he
thought the government, he was going to say .Thad acted
wisely; but, as had been said by the noble lord, the govern-
ment bad no option than the course they had taken.
Notwithstanding the necessity which he believed existed
fur such a measure, he thought the government ought to
have come forward with it earlier. lie had often
in the course of the session put questions to
the noble lord as to when such a measure
would be brought on. The late government, in the Queen's
speech, virtually put an end to transportation; and the
judges were embarrassed with regard to the sentences
which they were to pass, and when this bill came
down to this house and stood fur a second read-
ing at two o'clock in the morning, when he (Sir J.
Pakington) was fortunately in bed, but when the noble
viscount was still watching over the affairs of the couetry,
it was read a second time sub sikntio. It might be said
that anything was justifiable by the government in the
month of August, but still he thought that exceeded even
the license of that period of the session. The noble viscount
had now made a statement which, though satisfactory, was
not so full as it ought to have been ; for which, perhaps, be
would have the excuse of a morning sitting in the month
of August, and therefore under circumstances which ren-
dered it impossible that the bill should be discussed as it
ought to be, so as to inform the country by means of their
deliberations how this greet question of secondary punish-
ments was to be settled, and that the plan did not origi-
nate either with the late or the present government, but
was caused by the course of events comprised in the ob-
jections of the colonies to receive convicts and the disco-
veries of gold, which rendered this course imperative.
Under the separate system of imprisonment the term was
practically only a year and a half, although the law recog-
nised three years as the term. The next step in secondary
punishments was transportation for seven years, which was
too great a jump from one sort of punishment to another.
11e had placed this point before the Committee on Prison
Discipline which sat in 18,50, and they adopted the outline
of a plan by which district prisons were to be erected at the
cost of the government, and an alteration made so as to
substitute large periods of imprisonment for transportation.
He had prepared a memorandum for the late government
, which he lett in the colonial office, in which he recent-
mended a gradation of secondary punishments, and the
employment of prisoners in great public works, so
las to make them self-supporting. That was the
outline of the plan which the noble viscount had
adopted. He need not say therefore that he was in favour
of the plan of the government. Experience showed that
there was no reason to despair of the reformation of offend-
ers who had been guilty of the milder offences, and by
means of an amended prison discipline, they might look to
the reformation of the larger proportion of criminal of-
fenders, and also remedy the evil, which was so much
dreaded, of turning loose on society' persons who had been
criminal offenders. Greet alarm was felt on that point, but
be thought it an unnecessary alarm ; for the public was
not aware that when at one period transportation was sus-
pended, a great many persons who had been sent to the
hulks were let loose at the expiration of their terms of im-
prisonment; and that after a by no means rafermatory
training. By the adoption of such means as were now
Cratt, transportation might be got rid of. There
en a great increase in the number of criminals
who were sentenced to lege than ten years' trans-
portation, and who consequently did not go abroad. It
appeared by returns for the years 1847, 1849, 1850, and
1851, that the average in each year was 673 persons who
were transported for more than 10 years, and 6,249 who
were transported for less than 10 yearn. For this latter
great majority of cams the plan of the government full
provided, and he believed that such reformation would lee et.
acted that society would have no cause to regret the change ;
for the law would be as well administered and crime pu-
nished as heretofore, while looking to the minor element of
expense, he believed the noble lord was right in saying
that punishment would be carried out at a far less goat to
the country. He here cams to a part of the statement of
the noble viscount in which be failed in explaining the
=of imprisonment intended. The noble lord had told
hat there were means of accommodaing prisoners;
het he had not stated so fully as it ought to have been stated
what the system was to be. Now, when a prisoner was
transported, the first period of punishment was passed in
separate confinement in gaol. In the case of a prisoner in
future to be sentenced to transportation for seven years,
how was the first period of punishment to be passed ?—was
It to be passed in separate imprisonment ? [Lord Palmer.-
ton—Yee.] But when that period was passed, where wes
the man to go ? [Lord Palmerston—To the public works.]
That might be, but the noble viscount had presented no
calculation on the point, and it was doubtful whether there
would be public works sufficient to absorb the great amount
of labour which would be at the disposal of the government,
and the noble lord should afford the house some more accu-
rate information on that point. After some further general
remarks the right hon. gentleman concluded by expressing
his intention of supporting the measure.

Mr. MACARTNEY referred to the want of prison ac-
commodation at the depots in Ireland oven now, and urged
that if this measure was adopted the government must pro-
vide means for meeting its requiremeuts M Ireland.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought there was only one essential
difference before the scheme at present before the house and
that which had been under the consideration of tke late
government, and that was, that in the latter case a delay of
sig months would have occurred. What would have bean
the advantage of that delay None. If the right hon.
baronet (Sir J. Pskington) bad attempted to land convicts
in Australia, he would only have signalised his reign in the
Colonial-office in the same brilliant but mischievous way in
which his predecessor signalised his tenure of office in refer-
ence to the Cape of Oood Hope. The chief merit of the
measure was its promptness. Many shrank from the idea
that transportation, as a system, was doomed ; but it would
be better to look the matter fairly in the face, and, having
seen that it inevitably must come to an end, to provide
some other means of secondary punishment.
Mr. F. SCULLY fully concurred in and approved of the
government measure.
Mr. J. 0. PHILLIMORE thought that this bill was a
most useful measure. lie fully concurred with the hon.
member opposite (Mr. Atiderley) in his opinion of the in-
efficacy of this punishment.

Sir W. JOLLIFFE said it was very questionable whe-
ther our social system was in a position to bear the change
proposed by this bill.
Mr. PHILLIPS protested against the idea that trans-
portation was per seen unjust, an ineffectual punishment.
He was willing to admit, that at the present day transpor-
tation might be inexpedient or impossible, but he certainly

thought that, in its time, it had been of the utmost use both
to this country and to its colonies. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. mactiELL wished to be Mformed what were the
contemplated arringements with reference ts the employ-
ment of criminals upon harbours of refuge.
Mr. FLOYEII agreed very much iu the opinion that
transportation was no longer much dreaded. It might be
made so by the punishment to be inflicted in the colony,
but it appeared to him that the class to be exempted in the
11th clause were the very class whom it would be best to
remove to some other country.
Lord PALMERSTON expressed the satisfaction he felt
It tintlitte^ isrt a gonna: this mea-
sure, and that in the course of the discussion assay valualsle
suggestions had been thrown out, and which would receive
due consideration at the hands of government.
- • -••-
• -

The clauses of the bill were then gono through, and
agreed to w.thout amendment, and the house having re-
sumed the bill was reported.
The house then adjourned un:il 6 o'clock.
The house resumed at six o'clock,
SUPPLY.-ItEI'ORT.
_

The report of s;ipnliwas brougl.t up and the various
votes were read at the table.

On the vote for the Naval Coast Volunteers,
Mr. F. FRENCH said he had given notice to the First
Lord of the Admiralty of his intention of putting a ques-
tion to him. The question was whe•her there M4l any
cause why rum should continue to be the only spirit selected
for the consumption of the nsvy.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM s there was only one answer
to be given to the question. It was the opinion of
the Admiralty that it would not conduce to the
good of the service or the discipline of the navy
to issue more than one kind of spirits to the men.
From time immemorial rum bad been used in the
navy. Efforts had been made t 0 induce the men to use
other stimulants, and tea and coffee had been supplied
to them, in order to induce them to give up the we of
spirits as a stimulant. There was only an issue of one kind
of spirits, and it would lead to great inconveuience] if any
other were to be issued. The question then came, what
that spirit was to be. The habits sad customs, as well as
the health of the sailor, induced the Admiralty t decide in
favour of rum ; and various Boards of Admiralty had de-
cided that rum was the best spirit for the purpose. If the
hon. gentleman wished to see the correspoudeuce he had
spoken of, there was no objection to producing it.
On the vote for the maintenance of prisons,
. . .

Mr. LUCAS referred to the abs. nce of religi.ous instruction
in English prisons for Roman Catholic. and Protestant Dis-
senters, and proposed that there should be equality in this
respect in England, as in Ireland and the colonies.
Lord PALMERSTON was of opinion that without some
such arrangement the cause of reformation was hopeless,
and promised that the subject should be carefully considered.
The vote was then screed to.

On the vote of 486,415/. for the militia,
Colonel NORTH called the attention of the Secretary-at-
War to the fact that various clerks in the Ordnance depart.
ment had had a great deal of extra work in connexion with
the militia, for which they had received no remuneration.
This vote was then agreed to.
The report of the committee of supply was then brought
up and received.
METROPOLITAN SEWERS ACTS CONTINUANCE

BILL.
Upon the order of the day for going into committee upon
this bill.
A long disens•ion took place. The state of the sewerage
called forth loud complaints ; the commission, es were
duly attacked as the responsible persons; and strong
reasons were urged why the commission should be placed
on a bett.r

The house divia-d
For the motion
Against
The house then went into committee on the bill.
On clause 1,

Lord PALMERSTON said he did not wish to enter on
any lengthened answer to all the objections which had been
urged, but he merely wished to say that he should deem it
his duty to act on the suggestions which had been thrown
out, and that nothing should be done with the money
raised, which was not approved of by the consulting engi-
neers, Sir W. Cabin and Mr. Stephenson, in whose judg-
ment the house and the country could confide. (Ileac,
hear.) Ile agreed entirely with those who said that nothing
satisfactory would be effected until some general system
was adopted which would relieve the Thames from the
ignominious duty of being the sewer of London instead of
its ornament—(hear, bear)—and he thought such a system
should be combined with the advantageous use of the sido
sewers. lie hoped also that measures might be adopted
which would connect the tunnels and gullies into what
miners called downcast furnaces, which kept the air down
instead of expelling it upwards, and that the atmosphere
would be relieved from that constant source of
pollution. Ile must say that while on the one
band the ratepayers had great cause to com-
plain that they were left without relief, yet, on the
other, he could assure the house that the commissioners

....
also had cause to complain, for they were men of ability,
who, seeing what ought to be dune, were not able to du it
for want of funds; and the only wonder was that they had
not struck work altogether—(laughter)—and refused to be
responsible fir what appeared to be caused by their neg•
lect, but which, in fact, it was an impossibiiity for them
to do. He could again assure the house that no works
should be undertaken which was not approved by the two
eminent men h, had named, and that those works should
be of suck a nature uto connect places which were not
now drained with the outlets, and that those places should
be brought into connection with any great system of drain-
age which should hereafter be adopted. There were about
2,000 miles of streets in the metropolis, and of that only
900 miles was draiaed, leaving 1,100 miles without drain-
age, and, as Milton had described a town, as a place

Where homes thick and sewers annoy the air,
what must it be where you had " houses thick without
sewers," as was now the case in London ? (" Hear, hear,"
and laughter.)
Sir W. CLAY objected that this money to be raised was
going to be spent, not where drainage was wanted, but on
a system of arterial drainage.
Sir B. HALL said, that as his noble friend proposed to
have a general system of drainage, he would suggest that
directions should be given to the commissioners forthwith
to map out the metropolis, for the purposes of any scheme
of drainage that might be adopted.
Sir J. SHELLEY advised the noble lord to beware how
he trusted Sir W. Cubitt, for that gentleman had stated
before the London Drainage Committee that the Thames
was the best of all sewers, and that everything should go
into the river. lie should have more confidence in the way
this money was about to be expended if the direction was
left solely to Mr. Stephenson. He, however, admitted that
the prospect was bettered by the promise of the noble lord
that no works should be undertaken unless certified by Sir
, W. Cubitt and Mr. Stephenson.
Mr. A. PELLATT wished to say • few words to the
noble lord with reference to the South Metropolitan Drain-
age. He had seen the plan, and he would suggest that,
working as it was proposed to do, from Wandsworth to
Deptford, it went too much to the south of the densest part
of Southwark.

Mr. PKTO suggested that in borrowing the money it should
be spread over 30 or 40 years ...Leo that the whole expenditure
should not fall on one gennittion. The mode of levying
the rates also was most unfair, as it often happened that the
poorest parte of London paid not only for themselves, but
for the richer district, also.

The clauses of the bill were agreed to, and several danses
brought up and added to it.
Sir DE L. EVANS asked what was the opinion of the
noble lord with regard to the suggestion of the noble
member for Norwich as to spreading the burden of the
money to be raised over 30 or 40 years.
Lord PALMERSTON said it was intended by the com•
missioners to raise the money on annuities in the way
described by the hon. member, for which power was given
in the bill.

The hoagie then resumed, and the bill we. reported.
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.
The bill was then passed through committee.
CUSTOMS_BILL. _
_ .

Various amendments were added to this bill.
Mr. SAWLE thought that a clause ought to be added to
this bill to do away with the unjust manner fa which the
expense of keeping prisoners who had been guilty of
offices, against the customs was thrown upon towns.
Mr. WILSON was quite aware that a hardship existed.
It was quite true that when persons were taken into custody
for smuggling they were sent to the county gaol with a
certificate from the comptroller that they were possessed of
means sufficient to maintain themselves, and that in many
instances this property was not to be found. He had given
directions that, together with the certificate of the comp-
troller, a statement should be sent showing where the pro-
perty was to be found. However, the whole subject was
at present under consideration, and he promised that it
should not be lost sight of. (Hear, hear.)
The bill was then ordered to be read a third time this
day.
DEFACING THE COINS BILL.
This bill woe reed a third time and passed.
LINEN, de., MANUFACTURES BILL.
This bill war read a third time and passed.
CROWN SUITS BILL.
Some amendments to this bill were brought up, and the
third reading fixed for Friday.
FEMALE CONVICTS BILL.
This bill WAS read a third time and weed.
APPREHENSION OF OFFENDERS ACT AMEND-

MENT BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
MARRIAGES, HOLY TRINITY CHURCH, HULME,

VALIDITY BILL.
The bill was read a third time and pused.
REGISTRAR OF MEETINGS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
SMOKE NUISANCE ABATEMENT BILL.
After a short conversation between Mr. Spooner, Sir .1.
Graham, and Mr. Pellatt, the third reading of this bill was
fixed for to-morrow.

COPYHOLD, &c., COMMISSION CONTINUANCE

BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
COMMONS INCLOSURE (No. 3) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
HACKNEY CARRIAGE DUTIES BILL.

On the motion for the third rending of this bill,
Colonel SIIITHORP, having taken much interest in this
matter, was anxious to improve this bill. Ile had seen so
many accidents through carelessness in drivers of hackney
vehicles, that it was time that some meaaures should be
taken. lie did not hesitate to say that these men were,
generally speaking, ruffians. (Laughter.) But it was the
proprietors who ought to be got at. Much of the evil of

the present system anise from the iliffieult) of get—
et
the proprietors. In order to reined) Cie v..rieus preetical
defects of the present system, he moved the following clatters
" That no omnibus or public carriage of that description
shell be permitted to take up cr set down any passenger in
the middle or centre of any public street, roil, or
thoroughfare, but on each side of the street, raj, cr
'thoroughfare adjoining the pavement or causeway when
going er coming to and fro ; penalty for each n&nee, forty
I shillings or imprisonment fee one month. That the name
and residence of each proprietor, as well as driver, of each
carriage, be printed en each card or ticket that is to be de-
livered by each driver to the person or parties requiring
ruck card or ticket at the time of hiring ; penalty foe
omission, forty shillings er one monvi's imprisonment.
That no driver or other person connected with such public
e'rriea ag eshrraiglaloe dccupu)r. or side of any such cab nr
public ing tl,e time bath Cub or pub-
lic carriage is on the public stand, or during the
period that any such shall be hired ; penalty.
each offence, forty shillings, or one month's imprisonment.
That the polic,i officers on duty in each street or district be
authorised and have full power to take cognisance of any
misconduct on the part of any (driver of any public
carriage, or other person connected therewith, or fur
neglect or deviation from the enactments of the bill,
and either to rectify at the time or make special report
thereof in each case, and act as reflects as to any cum.
plaint by any person or party concerned."
Mr. LOWE was sorry that ho could not assent to the
addition of these clauses. They did not seem to come
within the scope of the bill and, being in their character
highly penal, they ought to have bet n submiled to the or-
deal of a committee of the house, instead of being brought
up on the third reading. Then, these claws were sobadly
drawn. (Laughter.) A penalty was imposed in them, but
it was not said how or where it could be recovered ; indeed,
as the clause stood the penalty of forty shillings would have
to be sued for by the Attorney. General inthe Court of Queen's
Bench. Then, again, in the last of the proposed clauses,
the police officers were to take cognisance of misconduct.
" Misconduct " was a very vague word. (Yeer, bear )
They were to make a report, but nothing was said as to
what was to be dnne when they had made one. (Laughter.)
Lastly, they were to act as referees; but whether with or
without the consent of the parties di nut appear.
Colonel SIBTHORP would rather truss to the wisdom
of a police slicer than to that of the Treasury bench.
(Laughtee.)
The clause was negatived without a division.
Sir D. NORREVS moved a clause, the object of which
was that, in cases in which the distance ws not to be found
in thee official list, the magistrate should have power to
measure it on the map from the nearest public building, or
point of intersection, to Vie spot from which the cab was
hired.

The clause was negativi d.
Mr. F. SCULLY moved the folioring clause:—
" That the proprietor of every hackney carriage, or metro-
politan stage carriage, licensed to ply for hire within the
limits of this act, who shall withdraw his carriage trout hire
for two consecutive days, or for any two days iu ~ne week,
without just cause, of which the magistrate before whom
the complaint is heard shall be the Judge, shall be liable to
a penalty of a sum not exceeding twenty shillings in respect
of every carriage for each duy he shall FO withdraw the
same ; and the license of suck proprietor shall be suspended
or recalled and taken away at the discretion of the said
Commissioners of Police provided always, that it shail be
lawful for such proprietor, upon giving ten days' notice to
the Commissioners of Police, to withdraw his carriage from
hire."

The clause was added to the bill.
Mr. V. SCULLY proposed to substitute for clause 13 the
following clause : " Where any hackney carriage shall be
discharged beyond the eireumf, renee of • circle the radius
of which shall be four miles front Temple Bar, it shall be
lawful for the driver of such carriage, in auditi-n to the
fare now directed to be laid, under the act of the presiiit
session of parliament, chapter 33, to charge a rum of six-
pence per mile for each mile, or part of a mile, in respect
of the distance between the piece where he is so
discharzcil and the nearest point of such circumference."
Mr. LOWE adopted the clause, omitting the words.
•" the radius it which shall b, four miles from Temple-bar,"
and putting in the words " the centre of which shall be
Temple-bar and the radius four miles."

The clause was committed, and after some discussion was
agreed to as amended. The house then resumed and the
clause was reported.
Mr. }'IIEWEN moved to bring up a clans: giving an ad-
ditional half fare when a carriage shoukl be discharged
between midnight and half-past four in the morning.
The clause was negatived.
Lord 1). STUART moved a clause allowing appeals from
the decisions of magistrates to the Quarter Sessions, revoca-
tions of licenses, however, to continue in force until the case
should hs heerd. This clause he had taken totidem robin
from the Dublin act, which was sent up to the other house
a few days ago, but if the hackney carriage proprietors and
drivers of Dublin were to have the right of appeal he could
not ate why the same right should not be upplii dto this
case. The house had done justice to Ireland in this respect,
and he wanted the house to extend the same ju.tiee to
London. (A laugh.)
Mr. LOWE opposed the clause, apprehending that this
appeal would be a repeal of the act, because it would deter
gentlemen from coming forward to resist imposition in
wrong. So tar from agreeing with the noble lord
in thinking that appeals under this clause could be few
and far between, he felt that they would be numerous, for
the proprietors of cabs and hackney carriages would eOOl.-
bine to make a fund for the purpose, and there would be an
appeal in almost every case. But a similar clause to this
had already been discussed and disposed of in a fuller house
than was present then, and if there were no other ground,
be thought that would be sufficient to justify the rejection
of this motion.

Mr. I. BUTT was prepared to support the right of ap-
peal, believing that it would be an efficient check upon the
decision of the magistrates. The right had been granted to
Dublin since this bill was brought in, and as the judges
of the superior courts were subject to a similar control he
could not understand upon what ground the police magis-
tracy of London should he exempted from it is this instance.
After a few words from Colonel SIIITHORP,
The house divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it
The clause was accordingly lost.
The bill then passed.
CONSOLIDATED FUND APPROPRIATION BILL.
Mr. WILSON brought in this bill, which was rend a
first time amidst cheering ; and ordered to be read a second
time this day.
METROPOLITAN BOARD OF SEWERS.
Sir J. SHELLEY moved fur leave to bring in a bill to
establish a metropolitan board of sewers. His object was
that the bill might be considered in the interval between
this and the next session. It went to establish the repre-
sentative principle, and he thought the noble lord the
Home Secretary would find in it something worthy of his
attention.

Leave was given ; and the bill was brought in and read
a first time.

-
Some returns were ordered, and tho house adjourned at
one o'clock.

erautoxi.