The Express.
London, England, 1851-12-04 00:00:00

VW Court.

OSBORNE, Dye. 3.
The Queen and Prince. and the younger branches
of the Royal Family, walked in the gardens yesterday.
The Earl of Listowel, Lord-in-Waiting to the Queen,
and Lieut -Colonel F. H. Seymour, Equerry to Prince
Albert, arrived in the afternoon from Hanover, where they
had proceeded to attend the funeral ceremony of the late
King on the part of her Majesty and his llo) al Highness.
They bad the honour of being included in the royal dinner
party, and remained at Osborne.

The Michas of Kent, attended by Lady Anna Maria
Dawson and Sir George Couper, left her residence Frog-
more, near Windsor, yesterday morning for her Majesty's
marine residence, Osborne, Isle of Wight.
The Finance Committee of the Royal Commission for the
Exhibition of the Works of Industry of all Nations in
I&31, had a meeting yesterday at the office of the Board of
Trade.

Major O'Connor had an interview with Earl Grey yester-
day at the Colonial-office.
Sir Henry Lytton Bulwer had an interview with Lord
John Russell yesterday at his official residence, in Down-
ing-street.
Mr. John F. South, President of the Royal Coliege of
Surgeons, and Mr. Cesar Hawkins, Vice-President of the
College, had an interview with Sir George Grey yesterday
at the home office.

NATIONAL PUBLIC SCHOOL ASSOCIATION.

An aggregate public meeting of the friends of this
scheme was held at the Corn Exchange, on Monday even-
ing, which drew together • great number of all classes of
the community. We have already given in the Daily News
a report of the council meeting which preceded this demon-
stration, with the names of the leading member* of the
council who attended that meeting. The attendance at the
evening meeting included the following gentlemen :—A.
HEXRY. M.P., President of the Association, in the chair ;
Right lion. T. M. Gibson, M.P. ; R. Cobden, M.P. ;
R. N. Philips, Thos. Ashton, Geo. Combo and Jas.
Simpeen, Edinburg; Rev. W. F. Walker, Oldham; Rev.
Win. McKerron, Rev. Dr. Davidson, Rev. Dr. Beard, Rev.
J. A. Baynes, M.A., Nottingham ; Rev. F. Tucker,
Rev. J. Rbys Jones li daisy, Geo. Wilder, James
Kershaw, jun.; William Cochrane' Liverpool; William
Heaton and James Hole Leeds ; H. K. Spark, Darlington;
James Simpson, Fothillbank ; Saha Schwabe; Ed. Shaw-
cross; H. J. Leppoc ; Aldermen Moss' Oldham; Alderman
Bradford; Alderman Harvey; S. A. Meyer; S. Pope;
John King, jun.; R. M. Shipman; William M'Cartney ;
F. Taylor ; S. P. Robinson; W. F. Iloyland ; Dr. Braid;
Dr. Urges; Dr. Watts; Dr. Bowman; T. Swanwick ;
William M'Call ; William Yates; T. Salterthwaite ; It.
Ashden ; It. W. Smiles, Secretary of the Association;
Anurew Hall ; Benjamin Lyddall ; William Shuttleworth ;
F. Edinundson ; Oldbrook lid4kell, Warrington ; Benjamin
Glover, Bury; A. Ireland, &c., &c.
The Chairman having addressed the meeting on opening
the proceedings,
Mr. M. GIBSON, M.P., said—Before giving in my adhe-
sion to the National Public School Association system, I
would say that I do so without in the slightest degree desiring
to nisparage the pant efforts of those who, in the main, un-
doubt:lly, actuated by religious motive,, have, by voluntary
subscriptions, given what education the county has, up to
this time, among tho poorer classes enjoyed. They all de-
serve—thaugh we may differ from the principles upon which
many of the schools have been establislied—those who
origin.ted the Sunday-school system—those who, in after
time, supported the different societies for tl,e purpose of
addingto that Sunday-school system a day-school system—
all deserve the thanks of every man who appreciates the
value of knowledge being spread through the community,
because these different societies have sprung, up front the
efforts of generous, of moral, and of religious-minded men, '
who have, from their private means, supplied those funds
which ought to have been supplied, and which I hope will
be supplied for the future, Wins the joint cu-operation of
tho whole country, and be levied in the form of a just and
equable rate upon all property. (Cheers.) But if wo are
to consider the question in this new aspect, of levying an
equable rate on property fur the support of free schools, we
then are, of necessity, compelled to consider, whether the
schooling is separated front that sectarian, that partial cha-

The Marquis of Lansdowne (Lord President) arrived in
town yesterday evening from his seat, liowood-park,
Wilts.

Despatches were received yesterday at the Colonial-
office from the Governor of Canada, from the Lord High
Commibsioner of the lonian Islands, and also from the
Governor of St. Helena.

A Cabinet Council was held to-day at the Foreign-
office at two o'clock.

VISIT OF THE DUCHESS OF KENT TO O,;BORNE.
The Duchess •t Kent, attended by Colonel Casper and
Lady Mary Dawson, arrived at Southampton, ou her way
to Osborne, yesterday, is the royal carrileze, by the train
that reached that town at half-pa 4 one in the afternoon.
The royal carriage proceeded into the Southampton Dock,
in which the royal Fairy yacht was lying to convey her
royal highness down Southampton Water. Colonel Hen-
derson, a director of the South Western Railway Company,
and his sun, Commander Crispin, of the Fairy yacht. Cap-
tain Peacock, and Mr. Levy, of the Southampton Docks,
and Mr. Watkins, the Southampton Railway Superinten-
dent, were at the docks to receive her Royal Highness
when she alighted from the railway carriage. lier Royal
Highness will return from Osborne to Frogmoreon the lUth
instant.

rector, ;inch 'of necessity was iu the only sceiooliug that
count be given in those schools which were supported by re-
EDUCATIONAL MEETING AT MANCIIESTER.—The ligious bodies, and principally for religious motives. If we
National Public School Association's demonstrations on arc reduced to the necessity of considering that point, I
Monday were followed by a great meeting on the following come to. the conclusion,
i that we must adopt the system of
(Tuesday) evening, in the Free Trade Hall, of the friends . .
seearating secu.ar from religious instruction ;nut laying
down any primp.
le of this sort, that education
of the Manchester and Salford Education Society (called
the local, or dental scheme). The hall was not filled, but will
.be complete without the child
.receiving religious.
it was a very large and respectable meeting, and on the teaching—nut laying down any amen amotei or (moue
platform were the Bishop of Manchester and upwards of as that ; but simply laying down the principle that
30 of the clergy, besides a great number of influential mer- in these rate-supported sihovls, we will only give that per-
chants, manufacturers, and other townsmen. The great thin oU°n of education which all men can agree to receive in
pressure of ether news prevents us from giving common,ing a lengthened from one system of teaching, -a d one descrietion
notice of the proceedings. of schoolmasters. (Hear, hear.) Tetnainly do find anion,;
the
PHILANTHROPIC SOCIETY. Yesterday a guar-
bishops and archbishops, sod the clergy, any thing but
terly court of the governors of this institution took place at unanimity upon this point. What is a poor perplex.elchurchman to do, under all those circumstacee, bishops
the London Tavern, Bishopsgute street (Mr. It. Ricardo in and archbishops contradicting each other oute the very
the chair), when it was reported that there were 90 lads in rector of the parish in which he lives telling hint that the
the farm school at Itedhill, and resolutions were passed National Public School Association scheme, which
agreeing to the admission of a few ad litioael inmates. has been condemned in many parts for being an
THE SMITHFIELD CLUB CATTLE SHOW.—Last
evening the final arrangements for the reception of the irreligious scheme, he prefers on religious grenade to
the local scheme ? But what must be his perplexity
cattle and other stock entered fur exhibition at the ensuing when, after being abused in the strongest language for sue-
show of the Smithfield Club were completed. Some few of porting Boman catholic institutions—whether rightly or
the specimens have already arrived, but it is understood wrongly he may have acted, upon that question I will not
that them contributed by his Royal Highness Prince Albert
now
will not leave the Flemish farm at Windsor until Friday or dwell--but how perplexing it is to find the very men
who have been abusing persons for giviag support to
Saturday. It is stated unofficially that an entry has been Roman catholic educational institutions themselves peti-
made in the name of his Royal Highness the Prince of
Wales ; but from the secrecy observed by the officials of the tioning parliament to tax them, in order to support Roman
catholic schools, and disseminate this very idolatrous reli-
club, a positive assertion cannot be made oa the subject.
Pion which they are so constantly abusing. (Cheers.)
Up to last night, a very large proportion of the agricultural •
There we have Mr. Hugh Stowell. (Laughter.) I have
implements intended Tar exhibition haul already arrived, no doubt that he has signed the petition in support of the
three o'clock this day (Thursday) being the latest hour at local scheme, and what does that petition pray ? That the
which any specimens in that department will be received. legislature will tax him directly by a rate, ter the avowed
'Uhe cattle, sheep, extra stock, &c., still be received up to purpose of supporting, among other schools, Boman catholic
six o'clock on Saturday evening. The arrangements alto- schools. Well, I must leave it to him to explain these ap •
gether will afford a very touch increased space for the ac-
commodation of the public as well as the animals. parent anomalies. The hon. gentleman then proceeded, at
considerable length, to examine the merits of the
CONVICTION OF A SI'IRIT ItECTIFIEE, PENALTY various systems of education, and concluded by moving
6001.—Yesterday, before the Commissioners of Inland the following resolution .—" That any system os free in-
Revenue, Themes Greenhon, of 16, St. John-street, Clerk- struetion established in this country, and =detained at the
remade wholesale spirit dealer and rectifier, was charged on public cost, can only be accordant with justice, and prove
an ineirmation containing four counts, anal levels, pe- 'satisfactory in its operations, by providing secular instrue-
nalties to the amount of 1,400/. The first count charged Son only.' The boa. member sat down amidst cordial
him with using a false certificate for the receipt of spirits, applasee.
so that the accounts made by the revenue officers might be The Rev. J. A. BAYNES, Nottingham, seconded the
frustrated ; secondly, with having is his possession spirits motion. Controverting the position of the voluntaryists,
unaccompanied by a legal permit ; thirdly, with having, as he said, if any one would go out to inquire, and come back
a rectifier, an illegal excess of spirits in his stock; and, to say there was education enough in the country, he
fourthly, with having deposited spirits with intent to de- would say that they had gone out only as Nelson delta the
fraud the revenue of the duty chargeable thereon. 'The Baltic, looking tor the signal of retreat with one eye blind
facts were proved by the evidence of the revenue officers, and the other abut. (Laughter.) Chance charity was nut
one of whom stated that a permit for eight gallons had enough to do the work, and did not do it; it was too fitful
been changed to SO. Mr. Commissioner Stephen/ten said and too irregular.
this ass a very serious °fleece, especially as the defendant GEORGE COMBE, Esq., was received with loud np-
had been formerly convicted in penalties amounting to plause. He staid, I shall confine myself to offering a few
1,4001., which, on petitions stating his contrition and a remarks on the question of what is secular education—
promise not to offend again, were mitigated to 2501. The (hear, hear)—about which we hear 60 much. At present,
court should, therefore, now give a judgment against him
and practically, as relates to the people, it means reading,
final and conclusive, and which would be immediately retitle , a little arithmetic, and the catechism. This is the
levied, in the sum of 6001., with the forfeiture of the spirits
that had been seised. generS idea which is understood of the secular instruction
that should be given ; and that this is all that is needed to
DESTRUCTION OF THE NORTH SHIELDS THEATRE be given to the people. Now, it appears to me, that we
BY Fl Within the space of two hours, on Tuesday must enlarge our notions of secular instruction prodigiously
morning, the North Shields Theatre was entirely destroyed beyond this point. (Applause.) Reading means knowledge
by fire. The fire was discovered shortly after midnight, of words; but words do not convey Heir own meaning.
and by two o'clock the building and " properties " were They don't convey instruction unless the mind has been
one mass of ruins. But for the exertions of the fire bri- informed concerning the things which they indicate, be
gade and the military, a large block of buildings in the those things material object', their ngencies and rela-
same street would have met a similar fate. The loss to Mr. tons or be they thoughts and emotious of the mind;
Earthy, the manager and the proprietor of the building, so that if you teach children merely words, you de nut
will exceed 1,0001. raise up their mental faculties, anal you don't thereby
MELANCHOLY Loss OF LIFE IN BATTERSEA- educate them. Yeu provide them merely with tho means of
rnetnt.—Yesterday an inquest was held by Mr. W. Carter, acquiring education from some other quarter, and at some
at the board-room of the Wandsworth Union, on the body other time. This is so trite an observation that it is perhaps
of Harriet Frances Rennet, aged 32, a milliner carrying on scarcely necessary to elucidate it. But allow me to mention
business, with the aid of several assistants, in Clarence- that in the Highlands of Scotland, where we have about
place, Clapham-read.—Samuel Crowder, a plasterer, de- 400,000 Celts who, at one time, did not understand the
posed that on Monday morning, about half-past 7 o'clock, English language, it was reckoned necessary fur the master
he was going along the
_path by the river side which leads to teach them English, and they taught them Englieh, and
from the watcrworks to Battersea ; and when about half way how did they do so ? They taught them to spell, to pro-
be saw a man, about:6o yards above himelstop, anal when he flounce, and to read the words; but it never occurred to them
got to the spot, the man showed him a fur muff and a that words did not convey their own meaning, and did nut
lady's handkerchief lying on the bank. There was a ditch tell them the signification of the words is the Gaelic lan-
on the right side, and about 20 feet higher up he saw the guage. They therefore read English as Milton's daughters
body of a woman lying in the ditch. She laid on her back. are said to have read Greek, pronouncing the sounds, which
All her body was under water, with the exception of part Milton understood, but they did not. Now, this strange
of her head, her face being covered with water frozen. anomaly went on for nearly half a century, and it was dn.
She had no cap nor bonnet on, and he saw no part of covered and its consequences brought to fight only within
her dress. He left the other man with the body, and these twenty-five years, by mr deceased friend the late Sir
went after a policeman. He had since examined the oppo- George Stewart Mackenzie. He was at the examination of
site bank, and found that the deceased had evidently made the Highland school in tho parish in which his property is
great and desperate struggles to reach the top of the bank, situated, and he made the children read Shakspere, and
which was on that side six feet from the water. The water Milton, and all the English classics in the collection-book,
was about two and a half feet deep, and the grass and earth with wonderful fluency. But he had the impression that
of the bank were much disturbed by the poor creature's there was no meaning in the minds of the children attached
efforts to release herself from her dreadful situation. Police- to the words that they so cleverly pronounced. And be
constable Richard Mayne, 192 V, deposed to receiving in- brought this to the test by addressing them in English, and
formation from the last witness, and went to the spot. After putting some simple questions to them about the meaning.
seeing to the disposal of the body he returned to the ditch, The schoolmaster turned round astonished, and said, "Sir
and with a rope recovered the remainder of the deceased's George, you need not take the trouble to put these questions,
clothing, she having only on her person when taken out of because the children do not understand the words yen
the water her boots, a red plaid silk dress, the skirt being address to them." " What!" said Sir George, "do they
torn away, stockings, and stays. He found the skirt, not understand what lam now saying to them ?" Not a
the bonnet, and a tartan Scotch plaid petticoat, syllable," was the answer of the schoolmaster. "Do they
and a cashmere shawl, embedded in the mud, not undontand the meaning of the words in this panel
and in her ears were two rings set with stones, and in her which they have read ?" " Not in the least." Sir George
pocket two keys, one • door-key, and a note merely relating turned round—the presbytery of the district werepresent as
to holiness. There were no marks of violence apparent the auditors and examinators of the school—and ho turned
either on her head, face, or neck, and he considered her round to them and said, " Gentlemen, is this possible ?"
dress and other garments, as they had been torn away at They hung their heads, or shrugged their shoulders, and
the gather., had arisen from her treading whilst endea- said, " Why, Sir George, this was never previously brought
vowing to save herself. Maria Wright, the wife of John under our observation." Now I should like to know what
Wright, hying at Clifton-villas, Surrey-lane, deposed that their observation was directed to when such a system of
she was returning home about half-past eight o'clock teaching followed. That this is a correct representation of
on Sunday night with her husband when they met the the state of things in the north of Scotland, I had a striking
deceased, who was walking towards Battersea-bridge, and illustration in my own case. I hired a highland servant
she asked the way to She did riot know such who spoke English remarkably well. He fell sick, and he
a place b name before, but understood it was a near sent a friend to supply his place • and although that man
way to the Clapham-road. She walked with them was some few years older, I found he did not understand
to the Rising Sun when they pointed out a path to the de- English. He did not understand what I said to him.
ceased by which she could get into tho Wandsworth-road. When my servant cams back I said, "How does it happen
The deceased was perfectly self-possessed, and wished them that your friend does not unnderstand English ?" " Why,"
good night. She heard nothing of her again till she heard says he, " sir, he was educated five or six years before the
she was found dead in a ditch near the Balloon gardens, change took place at the time when they taught them to
and no doubt, owing to the dense fog, she bad, instead of read English, and did not tell them tho meaning of it.
keeping the straight road, turned down a path at the corner (Laughter.) I had the good fortune," he said, "to come
of the almshouses, which would lead her to the fatal spot. after the change took place, and that is the reason why
Police constable Ontiy, 190 V, and Potter, a policeman in lam able to speak it." Now, gentlemen, this anecdote
plain clothes, proved meeting the demand In the Battersea- goes a great deal deeper. It goes to the merits
bridge-read walking with two young men whom they well of the question of secular education. I say take
knew, their attention was called to her, and she statedshehad a child, and make him read the most beautiful plu-
ton her way, and wanted to go to Nine Elms, so that she might sages in the English language ; he can attach no mean-
get into the Wandsworth-road. They accompanied her, and in/ to any word which goes beyond the ideas which he had
the young men as far as Weller's Farm, Battersea-flelde, received of things, and of feelings, and of intellectual per-
where they went in at a gateway. Potter then showed his oeptions. You must give the words a meaning before they
light, and asked why they were there, and they said they can benefit the child ; and that is the reason, in my opinion,
had lost their way. The shorter man, whose name he did why we have been educating, and educating, and educating,
not know, bat whom the deceased said she perfectly knew, and so little progress has been made in real intelligence, in
was walking away with deceased's muff, when Potter the power of grappling with the difficulties of the world,
fetched him back and restored it to her. Oatfield, the among many ofo ur poorer population. They have never under-
taller man then left, and the shorter man proceeded towards stood the fell meaning of the words which they have been
Nine Elms. The deceased said she would soon overtake taught. Heading was a monotonous, dry, and listless task,
the man, and he would see her home. They saw no more and when they retired from the school they forgot it ; and
of her.—Ann Chandler, widow and inmate of the union, the real education was the practical sensewhichthey learned
deposed that she had washed deceased's body and found in the coarse of their intercourse with society. Those of
many severe braises, particularly on her feet. She toperfor minds acquired by Insensible degrees a knowledge
proved the had not been violated.—The Coroner then of the meaning of the words, and were able to promote
summed up the evidence, leaving it to the jury to decide
what verdict they would return.—The court was cleared. their own advancement ; but the great mass of our pollute-
iioll about which we are so much interested, has remained,
The jury were nearly an hoar and a half in deliberation, anewill for ever remain, untrained, and incapable of ad-
examining fresh evidence, and recalling witnesses, and ulti mating themselves and their position in society, until
mately returned a verdict of " Accidental drowning." we reform our system of education. (Applause.)
OMNIBUS FARES.—The advantages reaped by the The speaker having illustrated this principle by
metropolitan public in the matter of omnibus fares con- several interesting instances, concluded as follows :
tines to be manifested, several further reductions in the Instead of the education which we propose being goalless
fares of the omnibuses on different lines of road having education, as has been said, you must come to that before
taken place for the first time ; the most remarkable instance yea can have a godly secular education. You must come
being that the London Conveyance and Paddington Ann- to teach the structure of the universe and its relations to
elation companies have announced that passengers may man, and yon must teach it as a demonstration of the will
travel by any cos of the omnibuses on the Oxford-street ,of God, as the rule of duty and of conduct, of practical
line of rood gm ens and two penny fares between the Ede- , guidance to man. And you must teach his religious sea-
-1 ware-road sad Fscriegdon-street, a circumstance entirely Bluetits to reverence tho institutions, and to rise pt in
unprecedented. ' devotional emotion' et thankfulness and gratitude to hat

Superior Being who has bestowed such a beautiful and
admirable world upon us, and has given us a body and
mind capable of turning it to account, and enjoying
it and subduing it as his rational and responsible crea-
ture. (Loud applause.) There is no motion entrusted to
me. I have again to express the great delight with which I
have heard the proceedings of this evening, and the utmost
confidence I have that this cause mast succeed. In Scot-
land we are looking to you—l mean that portion of Seat-
land which has escaped from the trammels of an ancient
theology, that portion of the people who have begun to
think—the working men of Edinburgh, of Glasgow, of
Aberdeen, and of Paisley. They have ;met, and they have
considered the subject, and they approve of your scheme,
sea they have petitions parliament in favour of the canto
principles, and they bid you God speed. And in my coun-
try, which has hitherto been celebrated for education
(but it 1s a delusion ; Scotland is a miserably
educated nation, when you come to look at edu-
cation in its proper sense), in my country we are
looking to you. I stand here aft the advocate of educe-
tion,-1 have been advocating it fur thirty years. I never
expected to live to see it so far advanced; and now
should it not be carried before I am called to close my ac-
count, I shall die with the most thorough confidence that
you will work out the secular education in which the reli-
gious sentiment will do its own part, and which will prove a
blessing to humanity. And it would be the commencement
of the real civilisation of England. As yet it appears to
me wo arc in a transitive condition. We are not yet out of
the dark ages. If we were we should hsve fewer of these
contentions ; but this is the day which is to arise to greater
and greater glory, and to bring unspeakable blessing to this
Wand, and make it worthy of the fame which it has hi-
therto enjoyed, and (lithe plate which it holds in Europe.
(Prolonged applause.)
Mr. COBDEN, M.P., who was loudly applauded, said,
We are hardly arrived at that point in this great struggle
in which we can venture to say that see will define what
the particular kind of secular education shall be which shall
be enjoyed in the schools which are to be erected, or to Ire
maintained out of the public rates. But when that limo
shell come, I am quite sure that a great deal of that know-
ledge appertaining to our own nature, and to our own
design and object iu this world, as described by our friend
Mr. Combo, will undoubtedly lona a part of the secular
colueetion of this country—(applause)—as a part, anal
only a part of that education, combined, as it will
be, with the religious instruction. But we have yet
to settle this question—shall we have any educes
lion at all in this country, such as is enjoyed
in almost every other civilised country—l mean an educa-
tion supported by all, and free to all. (Applause.)
New that is the question. I hold anything. else hut that
to be short of the real end and object of this controversy.
Shall there be a system of education supported by all, and
*museums to all ? Well, you arc going to settle that ques-
tion, as you have settled so many other important topics in
Manchester. For Ido not coined from myself that upon
the local contest in which you are now engaged will de-
pend the kind of education which is likely to be adopted
iu this country. The application which is about to ho
made to parliament for a private bill eruboalying a scheme
fur giving to Mauclaester and Salford a local system of
education, a system confined to those two boroughs, will,
if it be adopted, I have no doubt in the worlol, be made a
model fur the adoption of all other localities similarly cir-
cumstanced—l mean manufacturing districts, and our great
commercial centres, and that whatever may Ins adopted as
the act of parliament for Manchester, will, as in the Muni-
cipal Computations Act, become a general ant under winch
other places may put theme-lees, just as they now apply for
the benefit of a charter under the Municipal Corporations
Act. I have no doubt of that; and therefore you ore en-
gaged in a struggle of vast importance, not only to your-
/VIM, but to the whole community. Scotland, as Mr.
Combo says, leis its eyes upon yen. Too rest of the country
is equally an:created iu what you ere now doles. I du not want
the National Public School AA:exhalant to think that at pre-
sent their important duties lie elsewhere. Their duties lio
her at house ; and my opinion is, that if their exertions am
not centred here, in Manchester and &lend, we shall fail
to do our duty iu this crisis of the controversy. Now
what is the question at issue between the National Public
School Association, which would apply their scheme to
alaacheeter and Salford, and the Manchester and Salford
Aesucietion, who applies merely for a local hill? Why,
think tho whole deference between you may be traced to
that lone-standing sad almost solo difficulty in the way of a
national system of education is this country—l mean the
religious difficulty. The real question es hichyou are now
disputing is this—shalt tho education be ono in which the
secular shall be separate froth the religious element, or shall
it be one where the teacher iu your schools shall be paid
out of a public rate to teach all kinds of religion, at the
expease of all sorts of people ? (Applause.) hat is the
difference, I mean that is the source of all your differences;
because if you removed the religious difficulty, I du not
think that people is Manchester would be at all disputing
as to whether there should be more or less of self-govern-
ment in your scheme. I believe that the members of the
Manchester and Salford Scheme Association would he just
as much inclined to preserve the municipal self-governmeat
of Manchester as you would he; but they remove a part
of the administration, anal control, and diecretiou' in their
school business to London, simply anal solely because
they think by that they am going to erre ape
the religious difficulty which lies in their way. And it is
DOS a 111/cation whether the schoolrounts that ere ling in
existence shall be used for giving both secular and reli-
gious instruction, because by the plan which has been
adupted by this society this morning at a conference which
met this morning, it is now the rule of this society—it is a
plan which we propose to adopt as a part of our bill for par-
liament, that all schools belonging to separate churches or
chapels which may be allipueed to give education, subject to
inspection, insuring that the secular instruction shall be
good in quality, may receive payment per head Mr all the
scholars educated in those &chorea just in the same way as
it is proposed in the Manchester mid Salford plau, only
there is a stipulation, there is a safeguard, that there
shall be no payment made to those teachers for reli-
gious instruction ; that the religious instruction shall be
given apart nod at reiterate lima, and that it be distinctly
understood that out of the public rates there shall be no
payment made fur iastructiou in religion. Well, then let it
uo longer be said that by the plan which we propose we are
going to sacrifice the existing schools. We propose to take
authority for buying existing schools, or for renting existing
schools, and we now propose, in addition, by the revolution
of this morning, to do precisely what the Manchester and
&Ilford Society proposes to no—that is, to pay for the in-
structiou of children in secular kirowledge, in all schools
belonging to the churches or chapels where they may ho
disposed to give us the guarantee by inspection that they
are giving a proper secular education. Well, then, the
question between this association and the rival association
is simply reduced to this:—they insist that in all schools
religious education shall be given at the expense of the
whole community. Well, now, that involves one or two
difficulties and objections, which I think are insupereble.
In the first place; why, what a reflection it is anon rho
office of religious teacher ;—they may, " We will make
schoolmasters the teachers of religion." Da they pro-
pose that schoolmasters shall graduate in a course
of divinity in order to bo qualified for that instruction
Why, how they discount and da trade their own
profession, in making a schoolmaster, who is never taught
divinity at all, on equality. with clergymen, and calling
upon him to give religious restriction. (Applause.) But
it involves a greater difficulty than that; and here is my
objection to the principle which requires absolutely and
without exception the religious instruction to be given
in the school. It involves this grand and insuperable
difficul and injustice, that by that means you exclude
from cleans schools many of those whose parents have
been rated to the maintenance of those schools. Now,
in the first place, I find in the local bill US drawn up
here, I find that in all school' to be built out of the borough
rate levied upon all the property of this borough, the read-
ing of the Rely Scriptures in the authorised version
shalt be a part of the daily instruction of tho
scholars. Well, now, everybody will remember that
I took my stand against the exclusion of the Bible
from any schools, when we were settling our points
of faith as a secular association. I said, " I never
will be a party to any scheme that attempts to lay
down in an act of parliament this monstrous, arrogant, and
dictatorial doctrine that a parish or community shall not,
if it please, introduce the Bible into its schools., ' I made
my stand against that, and said I never would put my bend
to any such doctrine ; but, at the same time, lam just is pre-
pared to take my stand against any system which levies
taxes upon Jews and Roman catholics, which sends the tax-
gatherer round to their houses, and as calls upon them to
contribute to the wheal rate, and then insert a clause like
that which says they and their children shall derive no ad-
vantage from those schools. (Applause.) Now, I ask those
gentlemen, have they any scheme by which they propose
to exempt those parties from paying the taxes, whom they
exclude by this clause in their bill? Well, then, I ask
them if they are prepared to carry us back,
not only into a worse state of intolerence anal
bigotry than any that exists on the continent of
Europe at the present time in any protestant country, but
actually to the times when, in towns like Frankfort in olden
limes, Jews were shut up and set apart in the town, and
made to live in certain streets, and be locked up at home at
night long before Christians were required to be in their
domiciles. Why, it is a worse treatment to the Jews than
they received in those countries where they were thus per-
secuted. You educate Christians out of Jewish money, and
you deny them the right of having education themselves
for their children. (Bear, hear.) What would be said—
now just put a parallel case—if, after levying a rate for
lighting the town and supplying it with water, you com-
pelled the Jews to live in some street by themselves, where
there was neither a gas lamp nor yet a water pipe carried?
(Loud cheers.) And I won't say merely the Jews, but
the Roman catholica ; because you absolutely prohibit
the Roman catholic from entering those schools, if
you mean what you say in the close of this
You say " the authorised version or the Bible,"
nine hundred and ninety-nine thousandth part of which is
verbatim the same as the Roman catholic version ; but it
contains two or three passages, in which I yet never could
perceive any very material difference of meaning, and by
retaining those passages, by making that the test, nail
thereby striking at a point of conscience in those who object
to that version of the Bible, you prohibit them as much as
though you put a policeman at the door, and said " No
Roman catholic shall enter here." (Cheers.) Well, I say it
is impartible that such a thing as that can continue perma-
nently
the friends of the other secant joumag jp the principle
ut:nid7htchr;sgovherndrailien:ltyof
try
upon making the schools doe mut 'oval, but
jewheticpiirini cs inpolesw. ww,:wth.re
isdily.......Tffiincualttcoyoul:nefiyouLithe:ps-tt
o calls
a nat le
nl itselft
atagreeing bin a
the
recognisedt
sologuh et ownslightest
t degreet
state
tams f
at the same time they have air Male/ fro stand
which the church formerly that they ow a
scholar to eater other k the
r: • • j
01. t.. CO
1,41

doctrinal teething of those wheals, provided he carries a
written request from his parents to Sc no exempt. Well, so
far they go a great way to recognise our principle that se-
cuter education may he given apart front religious inotruc-
lion, inasmuch as those enildren who are allowed to carer
in their pickets a pass by which they are exempt from this
religious ti aching, at all events are placed very nearly in the
position in which we would place all our schools; and there-
fore, in point of fact, they.recognise the principle which we
advocate, with this exception, that they require absolutely
that the Bible—the authorised version of the Bible—shall
',mead daily in all other mheols. Well, now, do I hope that
the authors of the Manchester and Salford School Society
will address. themselves to-morrow to that question, and see
whether they cannot move one step farther, and abstain
from the attempt to inflict injustice and wrong upon a large
section. and that the moat necessitous part of the comma
nay, by attempting to make them read that which, if they
did read, they could only do it with hypocrisy; and there-
fore, by practising that hypocrisy for the sake of getting
oducetion, certainly could not, in the eyes of any rational
being in the world, become more just or more moral by the
process. (Aepieuse.) Well, gentlerrem, there's the po-i-
-tiers in wiiica we stand, or relieve you stand, in Manches-
ter. I have Mated the amountof difference between your two
scheme., which will CO-n° before parliament. Were I now
living in Manche-Mee, I should addrew myself solely to the
question fur the meant at least, as it aff-cis these localities;
because. I repeat to you, se hate ver is done in parliament the
neat *ewe a will, in my (winters, at very math as a model
for a great part of the kingdom; and therefore it is your
business. We shall have only that strength in parliament
to alt it with these two topics which you give Us by your sup-
port out of graph It is far you hi decide which of them
pl 'bell be adopted ; hut sorry lam to see that • great
portion of those who I th reent were above all other vitally
rine-mid in this question—l mean the dissenting bodies—
(he iieheer)—baire steed new( from thin controversy under
the ia villa and delusive ideas that ever possessed human
brines—that this was not a question solely as to one or an-
se hi me, hat they are under the impression that there
is a passibility in this country of going hack to no scheme
at all. (Applause.) How men moving in society cinbe at all
ander the alt Miami that the re is a doubt about such a sub-
ject, 1 eatit imagine. If there's one point upon which this
great community, I think, has more made up its mind than
another, it it in adopt; et some system of comlined attbin of
public educatieo, under the senction 01 government, through
heal antes and local management, as far aomesible. There's
no doubt bet th it is determined oa by the great roam et
the community; sad however anybody insincerity, wheeze
ao involved in this que•tion as the dissenting body are, can
be nvivirat about toe country and trying to advocate or plead
for that imp ...able cause —nu public education at all—paw
my comprehension. (Appleum.) I believe them to be sin-
cere. 1 e.,o't doubt theyare sincere; but if they were really
Maine at elm ing the game of that party which they have
'ewer% 4...Paltered ..ainecul to their religines interests and
their reliaions freedom, they could not have taken a more
*6 ctual evens, thou they have during the last
twelvemonth, by ignoring the elistence of the National
School Society, mid detaching themselves from that side
of the iteration in which I should have thought, at ill
event., looking upon their principles as they avow thou
themelvie, they were mine interested than any part of the
corniounity. New, I speak with some degree of feeling on
thissubj. et, because I hare takers to this secular school
amiciatem simply and purely, as I have avowed *gain arid
*gain, is cause I thought there was a great act of injustice
perp :treed upon diesenters. I thougot they were going
to be wee iged by another system which they re-
garded as a oystem of endowment.. 1 have again
and again said, that as one who every Sunday
take my children to a parish church, and therefore ant
as it were, upon endowment, I could nut plead foe
a) elf that I hail then conscientious scruples which I was
tutu awl believed the iliosenters had. I took up this secular
spit. m Iseauei I thought while it did no injustice to the
church, it did injustice to dissenters. I find the great body
of dia....titer* nut only holding al vii, but some of them—Dr.
Halley, fur instance, and his trimids, and the great organ
et their nine, the Banner—stating that if driven to take
one Or the other they will take the church system. Do
they underot and their own principles ? Have I done right
in believing oh it they have told me of their principles—
that they ehun the system of endowments ? I was ad-
vocating the American system of education, because I
lime there, in America, it was applied to the satisfac-
tiou of those descendents of the nonconformist' who have
not taupe ten their principles (applause) and where
we know the nysteni work. without injury to the rights
of coned. nee of any belie dual in the country. I speak thus
emphatically upon this subject, because I don't hesitate to
say lam for an education of the people. I believe the
great meet of the people take lest hitt:feat in this sectarian
squabbling than many others of us are apt to imagine.
Tau great mats of the people want education for their
children; are sick to death of these obstacles you
threw in their way. (Loud bursts of cheering.) I be-
lieve that when our eztendeel franchise throws more power
into the hands of the multituee—(prolimeed cheers)—you
will bee that what I say is true, that there is a feeling for
national education which will c set some of these cobwebs
with which you attempt to blind the great mass of the
people ; and feeling this, and having done my lest to do
yn,tic: to an parti s in the matter, I say now emphatically,
I vote for ewucatiou ; I'll support education; I'll do the best
I can for lbs.:niers; but I'll never oppose a system of edu-
cation which promises to give to the may of the people an
opportunity of raisiegthenstelves in life, and benefitingtheir
ehildren, by has ine is share in its advantages, which sa Mr.
tlembe,ys, those alone above them have hitherto enjoyed. I
don't thee fore profess. to ionic here to oppose the heal plan.
I believe if that plait Ise a.hpt.d it would remain where it is.
(Hear.) I believe if we once get a nystem of free schools,
the spirit of a free school will very soon lonsera itself of
the minds of the eivele, that it will lie found here, as it
bad been found in Ireland, under a far severer 'reroute and
test than it ever roll have in this country ; it is superior in
its strength to oliwet all other influences; :rod 1 believe if
we once establish a system of tree schools supported by
rates in this country, it won't be long that you who pay rates
here in %inchoate will allow either human catholic" or
Jew, to be eleltuled 'luta the hem tit' of those rites. (Ap-
plause.) I won't go into the quell ion of hoe far the people
of this reentry want educative. GO and inquire amongst
the people themselves. (Ilear, beer.) Go and ask the agri-
cultural labourer at his plough • test the amount of thought
and . warier that that man instruction imparted
to him ; ask hint where the Fenno he is dealing with as a
manure, day after day, comes from ; he has Ito idea. lie
never heard stieh a s dijert suggested. Ark him whose land
it is he's working upon. Ile cad h4l you the farmer's name, I
levees- the termer pays his wages ; hut nsk him who his
landlord is--ten bi osie he has never thought of it, because !
is England, from want of education, and training the mind
to thought and nalection, they don't learn to note causes of I
any Lied Ask them the geography of the next parish. As
fur the geography of the world, they can't tell you w hether
America is in Feiner or in Spain. It P. unquestionably
true, and cennot be: denied by any one that has travelled, I
that we are the worst educated people of any
protestant country in any pert of the earth.
11r. Combe Mut borne w amen to this ; Mr.
Baynes has borne unities : awl 1 challenge denial on
pena.nal investigation. Is that a safe state of things to
be left iu ? (Appinuse.) They tell us, that voluntaryism
hat worked well. I say we are the only people that have
had volueturyisim and we are belied all the world. %What
do they say in Amu erica? 'leer what Mr. Daniel Webster
said, in a speech delis red at an open-air meeting the other
day, In V. aohington :—" The population of the United
States is !M,000,000. Now take the map of the continent
of Europe, and spread it out before you. Take your sods
and pour divider., and lay off an area in say shape gale
please. • triangle, a each.. a peralieleienim, or a tram*,
and of an extent that shall contain 150,000,000 of pimp*
sad there will be found within the United States MOO
persono who do heb.tiutUy reed and write thaw am
be embraced within the lines of your demarkation."
But in the United States they don't trust to voluntaryism.
They mike use of their parochial municipal eaminisatioa to
secure a system of schools free to all, paid for by all, and
not a system of schools inertly fur that clew of destitute
people: to which Mr. Baynes has alluded. The New Eng-
land schools have as grown and improve d, that they have
taken in by degrees trom one class to another, from owe
grade to another, till now, in many parts of New England,
you find no private schools at all. All classes are educated
at the common public rchouls. It is my firm twilit that,
in Otis country, a system of schools once established, paid
for by all, would very soon here—as in the ease of the King
Swinhourne school. conducted so admirably by the Hey.
Mr. Dates—he found that, by degrees, the small farmer's
son would he sitting by the labourer's son; and as you im-
proved still more in your system of education, the small
tensicr's son would be coming and taking his seat
by the side of the rich farmer's son. I have no
doubt in the world that would be the case, be-
cause by combination—by co-operation—you would have a
better system of schools than you could have anywhere else ;
sad therefore I don't look to a system of free schods as
one of charity far the great MASS of the people-1 mean
for the poorest people. Oae of the beneflei we should de-
rive front common school. would be that it would cause that
greater intermixture and blending of society that would
lead the middle and working classes to send their children
to one common school, where they would become nine°
familiars, d in their common views and testes and habits,
mil the boys would be brought up in a genial sympathy and
more interatame than that which prevails at present in this
country. (Hear, bear.) Ido not agree with those gentle-
men who tell us that the voluntary sys.cra has answered,
I don't agree with then. I my, 'Go unto the highways
and byways end termite for yourselves." (Hear, hear.)
IdeattbMb it is safe for usu a nation to be the most igno-
nem protestant people us the face of the earth. This is a pe-
riod an the world's history, when the very security,. the
trade, and the pro,rrem of a nation, depend, not so much on
the contest of arms. a on the rivalry in science and the
arts, which must spring from education. Even lately, we
have been inviting al the world to a great competition.
Did any refl cling man walk through the (Lied Exhibition
without feeling that we were apt to be a little under a riche
sins as to the quality of men in other pain, and their capa-
city to create thine ;afters of utility of which we are apt
to think sometimes we possess a monopoly of the produc-
tion in this country ? Did nabody fe.l somewieit struck at
the vast superiority of the French in articles of taste and
delicate manipulation ' • and were we not equally struck to
lad ourselves so closely trod on the heels in everything
that related to the more rude utility of life, in American pro-
dustless, when we found ourselves beaten in shipbuilding,
in leeks, pistols, and many other things we had to show ?
Did it not make Englishmen feel that they had to look
about them? And how will you be able to rally—bow
will you attain to any improvements In arts and manu-
factures in any way but by improving the education of
your people; and I do net think we can wait. And there
re a reason why. I am Creel to death of this re cularian
carrel, which to preventing the people from balm mis-
timed: year after year is wain away, and the period we
Ys laws le not to be recalled. Why. it has beat stated

in public, it has been stated in our public Tecords, that
the poor peerde do not send their chilaren to school upon
an average more than two or three jean, and in some
vises not mote than ten months. Kell, we have passed
over two or three yeah in this sectarian strife, in which
we prevent the people from having education as they
have in America, by a system of common schools, and
whilst we are doing so a veneration, a section of the com-
munity, passes into mature life without any edueation at all.
One great wave of humanity passes on, and we never get a
eau: of the tide, to have a chance of giving these people
an education. We cannot wait! I hope the people of
Manchester will rouse themselves to a consideration of the
danger and difficulty of this matter. I hope you who have
gained to many victories in other things will find younelves
called upon to exert yourselves not only for your own
benefit, but for the benefit of the people at large. I augur
well from the large meeting I ace here tonight ; I
augur from it that you take en interest iu this
subject. I am told that a still larger meeting is to take
place to-morrow on this subject; all this augurs well of
the interest yen take in this question. If Manchester men
will direct their minds to this question perseveringly and
energetically, and if you consider that in this case, as in a
former atruggle, you are fi,hting the battle, not only for
England, but, in some degree, for the whole civilised world.
I have no doubt you will present such a case to the House
of Commons next session; that • • shall be relieved from
any doubt or difficulty as to the course we shall have to
pursue. fiend up your petitions fur what you conceive to
be the right measure for Manchester anti Salford; give in
your support, and your members, I have nu doubt, will do
their duty in this matter, and most happy I shall be to be
found alongside of them in that which is proved to be
necessary. (The hon. member resumed his seat amidst
great cheering.)
Mr. Stiarsos, of Edinburgh, addressed tho meeting at
considt rabic length.
Dr. WATTS also spoke at some length, and the proceed-
ings concluded at a late boar.