The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

0—'411.1 —WEDOESDAT
NOOSE OF LI/311N1 . .. . ,
The 6 222222 {OA the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE US! NESS.
The shaflield and Olussop Turnpike Road Bill wag Ma
• second time.
The Caledonian Railway 0.312141°11* "Illibil• a" °NS:
bridge, Pena and (forma,
&e., Bad .. pea
nonnaoation, ihe.) Bill was read a ' 111611•11113wIllsollsows.1
The Lords' amendments to the
Clitheroe mad West Riding Torkehke way- WE
to.
were considered and
Pt. lt BUSINESS.
HARWICH ELECTION.
Sir 0. CLERK. brooght up the report of the Committee
of Selectios. appointing the following members as the com-
mittee to try the merits of the petition against the
Sir Ht
return of Mr. Crawford for 'Harwich: r. Fewrginao,
4,
mHt.
Willoughby, Mr. A/harried, Mr. Yemba ,
Denim.
PETITION FRESENTED.
Tau Clreret. Peldicl.—By Mr. BASS from the mayor
ma iiimbit.ta of Derby, with 400 signatures, praying the
house would do all in its power to prvierve the Crystal
as a national object and one in which the petitioners
Naretuliar interest, owing to their relation with the arehi-
taet used builder, Messrs. Patten anal Fox.
ATIOUNEYS AND
DUTY.
SOLICITORS' CERTIFICATE
Lord R. GROSVENOR brought up the bill for the abo-
lition of the duty on *Berner and *elicirs' certificates,
which was read •• lint time, soul ordered to b toe
read a second
limp on Wednesday, the 'Gird met.
TILE 11181101' OF GLOUCESTER.—THE 110 Rs
Fl ELI/ ESTATE.
Mr. lIORSMAN bagged to say a few words in reference
to th, statement he hall mode a few days ago as to the
Bishop of Gloucester. It was only yeitery that he had
seen the latter of the hon. member fur Bristol in the news-
papers alleging that there were Certain inaccuracies in that
statement. On reading it he felt that the house had aright
to dens mil some explanation from him (Mr. Bergman) on
the .object, and he hail intended to be in his place at five
o'clock yesterday to give it, but not meeting with the
hon. member for Bristol at that time he did not
do so. Ile heal since conferred with that hon. member
he thought it would he toe most fair and satisfac-
course that he should not now allude to the subject,
her than to give notice of the time when he would offer
such espla nations as were necessary, in order that the hon.
member might he present to make what statement he
pleacied. Accordingly he would now give notice, that on
Friday neat h. would move for copies of all the WW-
opontlusee relating to the subject which had pewit. That
motion he hoped to be allowed to bring forward at five
o'clock, when the hun. member would probably make it
goon nivel to he present.
Mr. E. MILES said he should be quite prepared on
Inds, to answer every charge that bad been brought
agtt the Bishop of Gloucester.
ni.:ONIAL PROPERTY QUALIFICATION BILL.
On the motion for the committal of thin bill,
Mr. V.:ENI:IJ. rose to move, pursuant to notice, that
it he an instruction to the committee to provide for the
abolition of any property qualification for the election of
Members to were in parliament. Ilia object was that they
should revert to the ancient constitution of this country,
which required no props rty qualification for members of
parliament. 'that principle had first been infringed for
party purpose', and to facilitate the return of
the Stuarts. In Scotland there was now no pro-
perty qualifieation, and every attempt to impose
upon that country an act for animilatina; the law there
with that of England in this respect had been successfully
tiaisteel. 'fht whole popular voice of Scotland was opposed
to such an interference with the free exercise of the elective
franchise, anal if the appeal were made to it the popular
voice ad this country would also be pronounced against it.
(Har, hear.) Amongst the agricultural constituencies
there hail lien a strung wish expressed that their interests
should be rspresented by members of their own bndy—i.e.,
Unmet farmers. (('heers.) Ile believed much good'
would rosuit from having a fusion of all classes. in thee'
house—(hear, Insar).--but the tenant farmers sler, too poor
to be pieseeeeil of the neptinel qualification of lififil. a year,
and too honest to claim under a fictitious qualification. Al
showing the injustice of the present law, the right hoe.
member referred to the eae of the late member for
lime/Wit (Mr. Prinsep), who was unseated on the ground
of insullisient qualilication, though in East India Stock
gad other property he was known to possess more than there-
qui red aiinual amount. The hill of his him. friend (Mr. Hutt),
although it propiell to widen the Medea the qualification by
inn...luring colonial property, would in effect edit to the
stringency of the i sisting law, inasmuch as he proposed to
throw lite totem prephiwth on the party tenderiwf the qualifis
piton, instead 411 on the party disputing it. Ile thought,
too, the measure would enhauce the difficulty of deciding
upon the sufficiency ur insufficiency of the qualification on
ac Count of the impossibility of arriving at is standard of
value for propeny, whirl' might be in New Zealand or the
Aueklaiiil Islands. (Hear, hear.) The constituencies
and. r the proeut *me WI well as the more extended
constituencies which under the promised bill of his noble
Sri. lel hi• hoped weuld be mated, we re entitled to that
free cl -e in their representatives which, under the law
ho property
poine a pperty qualification, they could nut have.
(near.
Mr. LWAILT seconded the amendment.
The gentian having been put,
Loral .1. ItESOELL Paid —The proposal which my right
has. frilled has now made comes before us, as I think,
in a rather singular shape. The hill which the house has
under its inanimation is a bill tor extending the qualifica-
tion of WlCailire, of this house to a certain other description
of preperty which is not now admitted as formiim is qualifi-
cation for mendsn to sit in parliament; and my right hon.
Friend's proponent is that, by way of amending that hill,
we. should strike out all property qualifieation, :anal aleclieb
the eiestinet qualdieation efficierther. (hear) But that la
a totally dill, rent thing from the preposition involved WI
the bill. It is a totally different question from that of ens
tending the qualification to other d..seripti.ms of properV, I
whither or Hot then is any real utility is keeping up WA
pro-rut qualification for members of parliament—(hear).—
mold I think my rightlion. friend's arguments on that point
are arguments which have in them • great deal of weight.
(('heers.) As my right hon. friend has alleged, there was
in farmer time, reality in the provision that those who re-
presented shine Omuta be knights girt with swords; and
that the• re presentatives foe bonito/h. should be bar-
gees, beluaging to and riding in the boroughs for which
they were elected. That was a qualification which was nu
doubt a reality. and so long as it was in acconlaiice• with the
state if ...sty it might have been desirable to continue
that law. But the state id society as it was in three times
dots ant vend now. The knights girt with swords no
butte r appear here a. the representatives of the ilities, nor
at the representative. ut the boroughs iu general bin-
ge...es noiffing in theme horeughs. (Bear. hear.) So far,
the n, k:lTOWL•talireil have altered--(hear, hear)—and, so far
we they are watertied, parliament hos abolished the provi-
sion with r. moil hi boroughs, so that a person not noiding
Is the borough and nut tieing a burgess may he elected and
sit as its repreoutateve. But in the reign of Queen Anne
parliament, bilitg jealous of the increasing iiittuence of
trade and
.conitacrec. thought of a new licialifieation, and
the restrict then imposed appears to me to he at variance
with the aerie lit formation of parliament : for, as the
citizens mud binge-see repneentine cities and boroughs were
prs 'weedy required to he persons residing and trading in
these e ides sail boroughs. and whose property was only in
their trade—the manufactures and wares in which they
dealt —ct was then insisted that henceforward they should
be tutiiloatiirri, litiiiivasing a certain property qualiti-
eatien .n Maul. That provision I hold was a very
unativisalde one;—(hear)—but it was doubt,, nu in-
tended to strengthen the• hunted interest in this country.
be law became certainly in a more reamnible condition,
Gad was be might MOW iu accooLuice with the. present state
of society Sty the alteration made in it some few years since
at the notaece of Mr. Warburton, a crentlemeo who is no
longer in the house, I.ut who was for many years a die-
timmishi il member of the House of Common, (hear,
heat.) Ile sairiteeted is a manner that convinced the house,
that the Lids of the qualithation should be extended so as
to euaboser persons who hart acquired property of different
deserietivos whteh had grown up sinee the duns when the
revives qualiticution WAS established, and which in the
tone of Queen Alm, ought to have been the ground of the
qualificetion. (llear.) But now that Usse things have been
done, and thes. various alterations made, is there, atter all.
in effect any security in the property qualification as it now
exist,. 1 1. it nut notorious, as um right hon. friend has
and, that persous elected to this louse, who have any'
ere do at all, or any connexions which can help
them to a qualifisaatiou, hod no difficulty in obtain-
ing ime, sal sit here on a qu,i/itleatiOn perfectly good
in law, although. in Fact, they do not p....s the amount of
property requisite to qualify ? (Ilene, hear.) Every now
and then, bowsver. there occurs a cane in which the office.
tam is ,^aited before an election committee that such •
nit ill'aT h sa no property qualification; and, although there
nu,. he eit or ill eeher member. sitting in the house without
sin-li qualili cation, that unfortunate member is uweated.
'flier. fore. I say. there is no security its the preecut state of
th law as entente the qualification. Another notorious
feet—that win'els has keen alluded to by my hon. friend the
meanie., for Donttiies--ii that all the Scotch members sit
without any pratingly qualification. (Hear, hear.) And I
fug that I should he paying a very ill complhocut to them,
and should make a most undeserved and unfounded state-
ni..iit. if I said they were inferior iu rank, in proeertY. in
intellect, is busincos habits. or in capacity for :egielation to
the mene.ers for England or for Ireland. That being the
case I certainly cannot see why this whole Vestion of
Oualificatior should not be taken into the comic', -ation of
parliatmet. (Cheers) But I own t does notappe.ar• to me
~ that this is the wan in which it should he dons. 'l'..
pro-
Wee to mooed a bill providing a certain new..
qualiiloa• '
lion, in addition to that we now hare, by fag- ' 11
Mier no qualification at all, does mot tate-eIM- towe
win% I
t.° bc a loniser roods: of bringing
under the OWLinleritiOn . parliament.(llethare, hgeaure!)tionl !
think. it rather should be don, • by a4pe cal bill, breught In
peomety qualifications' altogether,
or by a bill fur the georaid purpose of imp's°. nose I
our whole syetem of represexetation. (Cheers.) And I
whether such a bill be int.-educe el by my right
honourable friend or any WIWI' member' Ishall !
be willing. certainly, to glue "
e the question a fa .
able consideration. (Loud cheers.) Then it is to tiecou
nr.-
sidered whether there is any danger at all—supposing this
qualification one uway with—of members being admitted
to this house who arc not in all respects as Perfectly well
eitediti 11 11. thOlie who are now members to ait here. I
Mill It apo irs to me that W.!lat forme in etrcet a road
qmiliticatitnt—whether it be desirable or sot—must 110
matter of dispute. The hon. gentleman opposite--(Mr. '
Newdegate, ho believed)—may dieent from that view ; I

JULIO. It

bet what does form an effective property qualification is the
feet that an peewee without some means—at all events, no
cote who bee het reside in London—is able to maintain
the Mahe add Imo the expense of coming to London,
WNW Ids own business. to attend here as a member of
(Hear.) Take the ease of a tradesman in a
etheld g or • farmer—such as my right hon. friend
lee I have no objection to see the tenant farmer
ha lime, if the freeholders and the electors choose to
Mild= here—but for his own sake I should think his at-
Ivddadcs here during the spring and • great part of the sum-
illiedonld be very injurious to his ploughing, his sowing,
ea Ida other farming operations. So, aewise, with
visaed to the mall tradesman, his custom would very
much suffer if he were compelled to attend here
during the whole of the parliamentary session. We
know as it is that there are many persons with incomes
111111.141110,17 larger than usually pertain to the clam I now
week of, who, after two or three years attendance in this
Wow find that they cannot afford to continue the ex.
and to sacrifice their basiness by remaining mem-
=so that in effect you have by the nature
of things as they exist a real property qualifi-
cation, without requiring it by law. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the proposition that members Of parlia-
ment should be paid, I hope that will never be required.
Certainly if such a proposition ever should be
brought forward, I shall feel it my duty to
vote against it. But with regard to the matter
of the abolition of the property qualification, though I can-
not consent to the present motion, when that subject shall
be brought forward as a whole and a separate question, I
shall give it my support. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. NEWDEOATE thought it evident that there was a
perfect scramble among the zealous reformers on the other
aide. The right hon. gentleman's motion was singularly
timed, and strangely brought forward. What consistent,
was there in abolishing a property qualification for the
elected if it were to be retained for electors ? The law as k
stood might be defective, but the true remedy lay in defining
and perhaps enlarging, the qualification.
Mr. HENLEY contended that restrictions on the repre-
sentation of some kind had always existed in this country,
and that the proposed change, on which the noble lord
looked with so much favour, could only bo beneficial to

political adventurers.
Mr. V. SMITH supported the motion.
Mr. TUFNELL said, after what had fallen from the
noble lord, he would leave the matter altogether in his
hands. lie withdrew his amendment, and he hoped
that the hon. member for Gateshead would withdraw the

bill.
Mr. ACTT then withdrew the bill, and the order of
the day for tho bill going into committee was discharged.
110ME-)LADE SPIRITS IN BOND BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this
bill,
Lord NAAS prevented a petition from 139 spirit dealers
and rectifiers in Manchester and Salford in favour of the

bill. -
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER presented a
petition, signed by the principal distillers of London, against
the bill. lie must say that to any person who investigated the
subject there would appear no claim of justice whatever on
the Ride of those who advocated the second reading of the
bill. There was a claim of justice on the pert of those who
opposed the hill. What was asked was that duty should
be paid on home-made spirits when they ware taken out of
bead as in the CAW of colonial spirits. Now the principle
we- with regard to customs duties to levy them at the latest
possible moment, hecause the articles might be exported ;
bat the principle with regard to excise duties was to
levy them at the earnest moment in order to
relieve the producer as soon as possible from excise
supervision. Consequently, with regard to spirits, the ear-
licit possible time at which the duty could be levied was
when it came off the worm's end, and from that time the
supervision of the excise officers ceased. If they were to
levy it at a later period they had a continuance of the su-
pervision of the excise officers, and they reversed the prin-
ciple on which the excise duties had been regulated. Ile
quite creased that there might be some ground of complaint
if the spirit which came into competition with the home-
made spirit was unfairly levied, so as to give a boon to the
colonial producer ; but a difference of 4d. a gallon above
the duty on home-male spirit was levied on colonial : and
this differential duty, which was levied in England, Scot-
land, and Ireland, wee imposed in ISIS, after a lenetheneal
inquiry before a committee of the bowie. It might be said
that was an unfair settlement, but the reverse was the case.
It cnutil nut he proved that that settlement was unfair, be-
CRUM' ele consumption et colonial spirits in Ireland and
Scotland had fallen off since that time, and the consump-
tion of home-made spirits hail considerlbly increased. He
COMM sire reamms for raising the duty in trelaual and Scot-
lend, but he saw no reason why an advantage should be
given to the Irish and Scotch distillers. 'then there was
another point. At present warehousing WAX allowed even
in the most remote districts, hut if this bill passed he could
not allow it. Another consideration was, that this bill
would have the effect of breaking up the small distilleries,
and concentrating them in few hands in large towns, which
however, he must admit, would promote the collection of
the revenue. But there wee another party concerned, the
English distillers. What was really sought was that the
Irish and watch should gain an advantage one the English
distillers. Fur these reasons lie trusted that the house
would not sena to the second reading of this bill.
Lord NAAS mill he thought nothing hail been said by
the right hues gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
to induce the house to alter the opinion which it had already
enpreesed. His lordship described the manner in which the
measurement of Irish spirits was conducted, and obeerved
that, although the Irish distillers had been no parties to the
arrangement of ISIS, he did not propose es interfere with
it. If that arrangement could he affected by his bill, it
could he only to the extent of id. per gallon ; and, with
PM., i to any loss of duty, the Irish distillers were reedy to
ml ' next year to any additional duty. which the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer might deem equivalent to the loss.
They did not esek any unfair adventage over the letielieh
distillers, who poesiseel :Ovate:lees over those of Scotto-el
anal Ireland which gave them a monupoly of the English
trade.
Mr. WRAMSTON consialcred that the bill would violate
: the coinpromiee of ISIS, and moved that it be read a second
time that 'fay three months.
11
Mr. lI.ISS denied that the English distillers hal any
advantage over the Irish and Seutch distillers, who enjoyed
a nentopoly of their own markets.
Mr. REYNOLDS said, the question was whether the
I Irish and Scotch distillers were placed upon au equal foot-
leg with the Ea lien and colottiel. Ile contended that
they. were not, and the 4d. duty afforded no sufficient pro-
tect len.
Mr. GOV LBUItN could not consider this a% a question
of maim* importance ; the revenue derived from spirits was
between 8,000,000/. and 9,000,000/., collected easily and re-
gularly; it was no light matter, therefore, to :street by a
change of the law 31 revenue of such magnitude. 'Phis
questien had been settled in ISIS; had the Irish distillers
meta-reel from that arrangement ? So far as dot:lane-lite and
facts could show, the reverse was the c.a., 'there was
another eurisideretion of importance; Irish anal Seoteh
spirits were put iu bend in a I.ollllitioll palatable to the eon-
mimes without undergoing rectilivation, which English
spirit, required. Ili% conviction was that the change pro-
perecd would be dangerous to the revenue as well as in-
jurious to private interests.
Mr. J. A. SMITH was received with loud crises of
"Divide," which rendered his remarks almost uniutelligi-
Ile. Ile considered that it was impossible to maintain
misting inequalities, and supported the second reading.
The home then divided.
For the second reading
Against it
The hill was therefore lost, and the result of the ilivieion
ems received with loud cheers.
ARREST OF ABSCONDING DEBTORS' BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
ECCLESIASTICAL RESIDENCES (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
CHURCHES AND CHAPELS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill passed through committee, and the report was
ordered to be received on Friday.
UNITED CHURCH OF ENGLAND AND IRELAND
BILL.

This but also pausal through eoramittee without du-
cession.
III.‘IIM.I.CV BILL.
This bill was committed pro forma.
Mr. BELL proposed vert.un aiuenolments. Ile stated
that in agreement with the pledge he hul given on the ge-
rund resdine, he would not press the bill further this session.
Should, litowc eve, the house find the bill free from objection
after the amendments were made, he should be prepared to
proceed with it.
The amendments were agreed to, and the bill was ordered
to be recommitb.od on Friday.
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE DILL.
This bill was read a second time.
VALUATION (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. SCULLY stated certain objections to the principle of
the measure. lie doubted the propriety of regulatinor the '
valuation by the price of agricultural produce, as collected
from the averages of certain markets. The law in Ireland
ought to he assimilated in this respect to that of England.
Another objection to the bill was the formation of the courts
of appeal, which were to consist of one or two sub-commis•
tioners and certain grand jurors; but the ratepayers would
have no one ta represent them in those courts. Small hold-
ings of oif.—a very numerous class in Ireland—would be
brought under assessment for the tirst time ; and they would
be wholly. unrepresented. He further objected to the bill
as nocognoing the principle of relative value, and disregard-
, big the actual value. °The entire machinery of the bill was
very complicated, and it would be understood with dia-
lcult,. in Ireland, ccpecially in the country parts.
He hoped the government would not vein the bill fur-
ther this session, and would allow it to be preceded by a
DUI fur properly ascertaining the prices of agricultural pro-
duce.
Sir D. NOR RE YS hoped the bill would not be oressed in its
precast ferns. The bill intlic ted grass injustice on the town pro-
pessy of Ireland, and would create great dissatirfactims in 41
the p opulous districts. A valuation had been taken five yea,
ago, shirk was about 24 per cent. under the real teeing
value. This valuation was to be adopted for the rural dis-
tricts, and the towns were to be ranked up to the full let-
ting value. This was very far from being just. There
ought to be some fair equitheation of the valuation in towns
mu country i:istriets. As at present proposed the town land
valuation was rrfectiv
Au hon. member here moved that the house be counted,
but there being forty members present,
Sir D. NOItItEIS continued, and argued at some length
that they should be sati-tied with the poor law situation
rather than adopt a measure which could net du otherwise
than prove eximediaalgubjeetionable.
I Sir J. YOUNG t Use blow ought to go into coca-