The Express.
London, England, 1847-06-02 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 2, 1847.

Becalms the right hon. gentleman says, that is the way in
which the Germans conduct it. He says that although we fail
in colossizatioe,our failure is not to be attributed to the change
of times or eircumstances,because a neighbouring country does
conduct it exactly on the principle of ancient tame, namely,
by men of capital taking out whole villutes, accompanied
by their spiritual directors, and thus giving the colony at
once en te character. I think it is at least worth
inquiry, whether or not we might adapt something of a simi-
lar plan. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentlemen's next
argument was, that if my noble friend withdrew his motion,
he would be only pursuing the course which has always
been pursued with similar motions. He says that gentle-
men have been in the habit of bringing forward mo-
tions which disturbed the public mind, have shown
themselves masters of the subject, led the public
to believe that great advantaged were to be de-
rived, but at last hen) withdrawn tour motions in despair,
in consequence of the ditcoungement thrown in their way
by the government. The right hon. gentleman's mom-
stendatioa to my noble friend is, to follow io this Inter.
track of all who Piave precerieU' :align) It appears
to me to be a conclusive reason why we should depart from
that track. (Hear, hear.) This right hon. gentleman pro-
ceeded to review the course of gentlemen who have success-
ively brought this question under the notice of the house.
Firs; there was the scheme of the judge-advocate. He,
according to the right hon. gentleman, laid down general
principles, but the government challenged him to produce
kis particular scheme. He was unwise enough to fall into
the trap, his scheme was referred to the colonial office,
where, with the aid of official and technical experience, it
wag completely damaged in all its details. The right hon.
gentleman blames my noble friend for taking warning from
this example, and censures him for not having his plan
ready—that plan which the honourable Under Secretary
was also disappointed in not receiving. (Hear, and a laugh.)
But my noble friend, taking warning by this example, sug-
gests only the appointment of &commission ; and let me re-
mind the house that there are now in this country able men
from the colonies who could furnish such commission with
valuable information. As to the objection that my noble
friend's motioa might have the appearance of a cen-
sure on the Irish policy of the government, I trust we
are not now going to abandon the temper with which
Irish questions have hithe to been discussed in this house.
We have fully recognised the difficulties under which
the government labour, and even when they have failed
we have attributed their failure to circumstances which it
was impossible to cent:rout. It is not, therefore, likely that
we should, just at the close of the session, bring forward a
motion which could be fairly construed into a censure on their
policy. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the noble lord at
the head of the colonial department, as to his ability for
forming a judgment on questions of this kind, I know no
man on whom I should be lees willing to cast reflections, on
the score of ability, than on that noble lord. (Hear, hear.)
But the reason why the matter has not been proposed
to him particularly is, that the overwhelming mass
of official details render, such an inquiry as we
want wholly impossible in the Colonial Office. The
right honourable gentleman quotes Lord Grey. Now, if
Lord Grey had been the proposer of a successful plan
I could understand why his name should be introduced
as a reason for not appointing this commission. But the
right hon. geutleman says that the noble Secretary ler the
Colonies proposed a plan of colonisation in December, which
he was obliged to abandon in January. That is no
reason why we should desist it only proves the
great practical difficulty of dealing officially with this
question. The right hon. gentleman turns next to the Irish
members who are willing to contribute nine millions, end
doubts their ability, under the responsibility of their heavy
rates. I do not think they will be called on for anything
like that amount. (Hear, hear.) It is unwise to sanune
that Mr. Godlcy's plan is to be carried out to the full extent,
but it is important in a discussion like this, to find that Irish
members expect such immediate and future benefits from
emigration, as to express their readiness to take
upon themselves so large a portion of the charge.
The right honourable gentleman, looking at the incum-
Deuces on landed property in Ireland, doubts their ability
to pay this nine millions. But hi it not possible to realise
some advantage from the plan, even if it were made avail-
able to only 300,000 persons, instead of the 2,000,000 pro-
posed ? (Hear, hear.) If we locate that number in such a
manner as to enable them to report favourably to their
friends at home, we shall do ten times more good than we
should if we sent the 2,000,000 out at once. (Hear, hear.)
If you establish even 40,000 happily, you will have
laid the foundation of much good for Ireland. I
must here observe that it is most gratifying to see
such large remittances coming from Irishmen in Canada and
the United Stales to aid their friends at home in their diffi-
culties. (Hear, hear.) It is most honourable to their cha-
racter, and most encouraging to colonisation. (Hear, hear.)
It shows that Irishmen, when planted in other countries,
are not inferior as colonists to other men; nay, in Australia,
as we are told, Paddy is called on to lead the way. (Hear,
hear.) But I do not speak only of the Irishmen in the
United States; I must also say that the conduct of the
citizens of the United States in raising subscriptions
for Ireland is in every way entitled to our gra-
titude. (Hear, hear.) Some persons may have
done it for a mischievous purpose to make a parade, but
much has been done in the most unostentatious manner.
The committee of the society of Friends, sitting in Dublin,
hare received supplies of food from persons in America, who
never expected to have their names mentioned, to the
amount of 57,000/. (Hear, hear.) My authority for this
statement is Mr. Jonathan Pim, a gentleman entitled to
all respect for his exertions to relieve Irish distress.
(Hear, hear.) I do trust that the noble lord opposite
will, in considering this motion' bear in mind the conduct
which has been pursued towards him and his government,
and, if he have any doubt, give the benefit of it to this in-
quiry. I do assure him that if its success were to be looked
upon as a triumph over the government, I should not receive
it with any satisfaction. I do intrcat the noble lord to con-
sider the demands likely to be made on the property by the
poverty of Ireland. I do entreat him to look at the
chance of the government being forced to the alternative of
sternly enforcing the law, or of abandoning all chance of re-
turn of the money which has been advanced fur Ireland. I
do not wish that country to be taught that she is te draw on
England in her difficulty, and when the pinch comes to be
relieved from her obligation. I should object to it less for
the loss of the money than for the moral consequences.
(Hear, hear.) It is not fair to this kingdom. (Hear, hear.)
1 would rather give a specified sum at once, than lend
with an implied understanding that the loan was never to be
reclaimed, I tremble for the demands which will be made on
Irish property for some time to come. I believe that the
country wants a stimulus, and I think it worth while to in-
quire whether some means may not be found to employ and
provide fora portion of the people. On one side we have a large
population without employment or subsistence, and on the
other we have magnificent colonies almost without population.
We want now to know whether something may not be done
to relieve Ireland by promoting emigration to our colonies.
Your own agents—men upon whom you say yowc an depend
—declare that emigration originates in Ireland. Let us,
then, have the system carefully watched, and let us see if
we may not promote such a wholesome emigration to the
Crusades and to New Brunswick, as is said to be going on to
South Australia. The hon. gentleman opposite says that
SontbAustralia failed at first; but you have since appointed a
governor who has converted a body of despetrtng paupers
into a contented and even affluent population. Why may
we not have similar results in the Canadas ? Captain Grey
is a good man and an able officer, but surely, in the range of
the subjects of the Queen, we can readily find other Capp44tann•
Greys. Yon have Lord Elgin now in the Cenadae—
you admit his appointment to have been a good one. Make
the passage cheaper—make better regulations—provide some
security (or employment for the emigrants on their arrival,
and I do believe that you will have a better chance of success
in emigration to the tausedu than you can possibly have in
emigration to Australis. I say nothing, air, of former
opinions. I believe it is now open to the noble lord volun-
tarily to defer to what is the general sense of the house on
this subject ; and I do trust he will enable us to try if we
cannot, at this imminent crisis, arrive at some plan for the
relief of Ireland by the remove' of her redundant population,
and byplacing them in our colonies in a position maculated
to ensure their affectionate attachment to their queen and
to the country to which they naturally belong. (Cheep.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I am apprehensive that the spirit of
the right hon. gentleman and the course which I shall take
to-night may, when contrasted with the speech of the Judge
Advocate General, and of Lord Stanley, upon a former oseito
sion, give some confirmation to the opinion which bee bees
expressed this evening by the hammember fee Nartinsepina.
I shall certainly regret it that hen. umber's numb ere so
confirmed ; but I het bound bp do infornatiee ft ergy dis-
posal, and by the montnitiss I have had of weighing net
information, to naafi the seeddleeeisme width suer tow me
haying taken Lbsts wilt germ* to colons sties. I skall reel
enter Into the trnornie noble lord's splash, relative to
the number of in Ireland. As his preyed
refers to the aim beirtre Woe, I shall at one. p
that part nth, nilden. I nut ern, that I think the aside
lord took a view mei* was ream water to the government
to which M kinneVilmiseged, a well as to the gee/numb;
whir-km*BolBlml Mowed it. his Wand is not one, @eke
onnern. tiblik los boas mini, aigiseteg. a 1
aoc-
t
lea= meawreeema peen Itwobsea to severe
Sr o 1' a embodied population ilimenr AWOL til lbw
aipste.., we have three cennimanne employed in the
service, watching the NNW of emigration, and
takfag ears that it is ceednend a olootolly as possible for
than who have the nem se eke en willing to emigrate.
' This. agents take the gannet inn to provide the
tallest informed= be parties WWI arrive, with a view
to embark Mon *Mir respective pens. So far as to
the auras Vim with reopen to emigrants from
Annie mamma But in the minks we also take
peosolionip maw. We hate mmmmmby which the sick
ethigmeles tike my be loaded alma a a*' are cared ter in
pews Inopinio i one tau lime mene by which those who
are able to proend 010 INVIIMIId lean their journeys
to than points whew fink Meer is likely to be of the
most value, and wham lisp nia mot likely immediately to
obtain regular and angle names of subsistence. It is not
true, therefore, that this quads, of emigration has been
neglected by the go anent or by the parliament of the
country. Let us now consider how the means are fur-
nished far emigration in cases where the government and
the legislature have not
_provided the n funds.
Many emigrants, it is needless to say, go out on t air own
resources; others are provided with funds by their land-
lords; whilst a third class—and they compose a large
body this year—go out with funds provided for them by
relatives and friends who hare already emigrated, and who
desire that they should join them. I understand that no lees
the 200,0001. has been sent to the United Kingdom this year
with this object. (Hear, hear.) It is apparent, therefore,
that great funds are available for purposes of emigration, and
indeed it is declared that this year no less than 120,000 per-
sons have proceeded from our shores to the United States
and to British North America alone. That of itself is a con-
siderable emigration, and one which should make us look
carefully after the security of those who go out. But, whilst

intoner that would enable a dismission to follow upon it,
which sh•uld out exhdiit the characteristics of party feeling.
(Hear, hear.) The proposition now made was intended as
an auxiliary to the pow-law recently adopted by the legida-
tine for the relief of the poor of Ireland ; but in this respect
the intended auxiliary would fail, because the very class of
the Irish population who would emigrate—nundy, the able-
bodied, was the very_clus which it was desirable to retain in
the country. He (Mr. Hawes) would yield to no man in his
earnest and anxious desire fur au extensive system of coloni.
lotion. In general principles he agreed with the noble lord, and
only differed with him as to the expediency of issuing such
a commission as that which the noble lord proposed. There
was no analogy between the poor-law commission, to which
the noble lord had adverted, and !bat which the noble lord
sought to have appointed ; hicause, in the former case, the
information ntLeas iry and desirable to he obtained could be
ttiorded on the spot in this country, while, in the latter case,
information must be looked for from abroad. But he held,
and should show, he hoped satisfactorily to the house,
that inquiry was wince-emery. The noble lord had secured
to himself an advantage, by not having suggested any Om
of his own, or having adopted any of the numerous projects
which, in past years, had been brought under public notice.
Neither had he given any opinion upon the plan of Mr.
Godley, which might be supposed to have been the origin of
the present motion. All the new plans in reference to colo-
nisation were wholly different from those upon which the
chartered colonies had been founded and conducted.
Hitherto, the colonies had been founded and carried out
with great success, entirely by the energy, enterprise, and
public spirit of individuals. Oa the other hand it was re.
mukable that all the various new plans to which the noble
lord had drawn attention, rested entirely upon large grants
of public money being afforded to carry them out, and it
was said that if the government refused these grants, they
ought to be taunted- with being indifllrent to the im-
portant question of colonization. At the present moment
emigration by the voluntary agency of individuals was
proceeding at a rate, and to an extent that was surprising,
and he (Mr. Hawes) apprehended that even if the govern-
meat commenced such an inquiry as that which the noble
lord asked for, such a procedure would materially affect the
extent to which voluntary emigration was now going on. He
hardly thought the aoble lord or the house was aware
of all that had been done of late years by successivz govern-
ments with reference to the great question of colonization.
A review of past circumstances would show that neither
this house nor any government had been indifferent
to the progress of colonization and emigration. (Hear, hear.)
This renew would exhibit that the principles of eminent
men who had written on the subject, had more or less been
adopted, and earned into practical effect, and at the present
moment little remained to be done, unless parliament and
the country were prepared, by a large grant of public money,
to carry out a greater scheme. The noble lord asked for a
commission of inquiry. There had already been numerous
inquiries. In 1826 and 1827 inquiries had been instituted
into the plans of Sir Robert Wilmot Horton, and those '
plans had been carried out at the coetof 221. to 231. of locating
each emigrant. This was followed by the inquiry of which
the Duke of Richmond was the head, in 1836, and next by
a committee of this house in 1842. From these inquiries
various plans had been propounded; and he (Mr. Hawes)
could show how ready every government had been to adopt
any well-considered system of emigration and coloniaation. It
was therefore idle to say that by any government the subject
had been treated with indifference or neglect. So the plan of
Mr. G. Wakefield had been carried out, and by these means
a great amount of emigration to Australia had been effected.
In the same manner the emigration board had been consti-
tuted, and assistance had been afforded in furtherance of
emigration to Canada, conformable to the recommendations
contained in the appendix to Lord Durham's report. He
mentioned these facts to show, first, that the subject was
one which did not call for inquiry ; and, secondly, that every
succeeding government had shown its readiness to carry into
effect every practicable plan that had been suggested. The
emigration which had taken place since the commission had
been established had been enormous. In the last ten years,
nearly 100,1)00 persons had emigrated to the Australian role-
nice; and to the North American colonies, the number,
in the same space of time, had been 740,000. Of the 100,000
who had gone to Australia, 80,000 had been carried out by
the means afforded by the sales of land, and the remaining
20,000 had gone out entirely at their own cost and expense.
In the Australian group of colonies returns showed .most
satisfactory advance in the amount of population and ex-
ports. In 183.5 the populati,n was 102,900, in 1845 it
amounted to 295,976 ; in 1835 their exports were 1,004,0001.,
and in 1845, 2,175,0001. This was an unexampled proof of
prosperity. Again, with reference to emigration to Canada
the government had not Diet sight of the interests of the
emigrants. This year an additional 10,0001. had been voted
for emigration agents, who received and protected emigrants
on their arrival, and directed and forwarded them to districts
where labour was in demand. Hence emigration was not
so devoid of system as the noble lord seemed tosuppose. The
noble lord had perhaps wieely omitted to notice Mr. God-
ley's plan, but he (Mr. Hawes) could not allow that plan to
pus without some observation. The plan had been put
forward with a good deal of manifestation of a note of pre-
paration. It had been forwarded in the shape of a memorial
to the prime minister, and sent out to attract notice in
Canada. In Canada, speaking on better authority than the
Canadian newspapers, he could state that the au-
thorities were unfavourable to Mr. Godley's plan.
Could any one imagine that such a scheme would be advan-
tageous? And yet this was the scheme which had hitherto
mainly occupied public attention. Looking at all these facto,
and at the great stream of emigration now going on, he
feared that the proposed inquiry would tend rather to cheek
it than otherwise, and would be most prejudicial to Ireland.
It would also prejudice one important species of funds now
available for the purposes of emigration. In a letter from
the emigration agent at Montreal, written on the 7th of last
month, it was stated that settlers in the Canada were much
in the habit of remitting money to this country to pay for
the passage of their relatives, and that if government aid
were afforded for that purpose, it would materially tend to '
check the disposition thus evinced. Between 3,0001. and
4,0001. had been thus remitted to this country ; and it was
mist important that nothing should be done to dry up the
source of voluntary emigration. Whatever inq=tseet
place, it must be a protracted oae ; and what were te
and the Irish to do in the mean time ? Already 111.7,000
pewees had emigrated in the present year, and the stream
was still going on : let the legudatare beware of doing any-
thing to check it. (Hear.) Concurring with the noble lord
in his general views as to the importance of colonisa-
tion he could not but feel that the existing
Mats; of the money market presented an obstacle
to any government aid being afforded. As to New Zealand,
much had been recently done to render that colony desirable ;
the granting it a constitution was a most important step,
and a bill had been some time in consideration for giving
representative governments to our Australian colonies.
(Hear, hear) All this tended to encourage emigration, and
was much more important than sending out a few ship loads
of men. (Hear, hear.) But the main object of the noble
lord (Lincoln) seemed to be to ascertain whether government
was really devoting its attention to this subject. It was well
known that government could obtain all necessary informa-
tion much earlier than any commission; and emigration was
now going on under the existing system much mare effectually
than at any former period. Recollecting the feasible plan
which had barn framed and matured some years ago by the
hon. member for Liakeard, and the serious objections by
which it was met in Canada, he felt convinced that the
interests of emigration could not be promoted by govern-
ment laying down abstract plans. Calms the commission
could devise the means of providing adequate funds for emi-
gration, their inquiries would be utterly fruitless. The
means of benefiting the colonies by promoting emigration
now occupied the most assiduous attention of the noble earl
at the head of the colonial department, who had every die
position to weigh the merits of any scheme that might be
proposed. Under existing circumstances, he hoped the noble
lord opposite would not press his motion, but would be satis-
fied with the assuminge that the subject would receive the
utmost attention from the colonial department.
Yr. GREGORY said the present motion had not ben
salmllled with any hostile feeling towards the government,
bet eddy in toe hops of assisting in the alleviation of the
dillsellies of Ireland ; he therefore regretted that the hos.
geniensa who had just addressed the loam had met the
miss with a direst negative. No, sea; has
Wig Ismodunns the minis-
) Is the existing state et to Wand,
the whole therm of snaky being broken up, hand of a
nmemniml wee required to remould and settle it ; od
=lleelesintime might rare effect all that be seeded, it
11:ela_a powerful auiliary, and would be prothetive
eremite width the measures of the govennesat Maine
arant thil to attain.
.;17. SMITH said the great objection to the
of the noble lord was, that it exhibited as perdP
isrerris:
whereas, from a p of the noble lord's high char
andacter
noth
asses ing d
he
mo should havee nee= it
ef
aan ie:Z. dell of oolosimeion, but there was nothing
in the theorise he developed which, in point of
fact, was seionsatices. • He did not conceive that
the people of Englund, who had so liberally gins
their maims to Ireland, with a view to raise bar hies bee
dote of degmemion by one great exertion, would bites to
any other imminent, mush less a vae one, until the ex-
perimat than o& emented to make had been fairly tried.
Sir Z. PEEL •. tank that all the arguments which could
egoism the motion of my noble friend, may be
to have bees adduced by the right hon. gentleman
has just sat down, one who is perfectly acquainted
with all the details of colonial business, and who
has also had the advantage of retirement from dace
to enable him to consider the question. (A laugh.)
lie has brought to the question all the aatAseaa
of official experience with the inestimable advantage of lei-
sure for reflection. (Laughter.) I shall take the right has.
gentleman's objections in order. First of all, the right boa.
gentleman says that the party in opposition always take up
this question, making plausible speeches about colonisation,
but when they get into office they make speeches against it,
it dwindles down to emigration, and all the '
raises resolve themselves into • very small and buff=
certainty. But what is the reason ? Why, that case is
so burthened with details, its holders have no time to make
the proper inquiries. (Hear, hear.) The right hes. gen-
tleman says that Lord Ilowiel and several others have hen
Teaches which have created a great semation on etdoeins-
two, but in office have done nothing, Is it not time that we
should adopt another system ? (Hear, hear.) Is it not
time, if the scheme is really impracticable, that it should be
conclusively proved so, and that the alternation which the
right hon. gentleman describes between promise and per-
formance should cease. (Hear, hear.) The second argu-
ment of the right hon. gentleman was, that in this country
we conduct emigration very badly, that we leave it to loth.
vidnals, who go to a desert country, and that colonization by
individuals is no colonization on the principle on which it
used to be conducted, namely by a person of distinction
going out, surrounded by his dependants, and forming a
regular colony. He says that each was the practice in
ancient times. Is it impossible now, is it not worth in-
quiry? (Hear, hear.) Why should we think it impossible ?

we do so, we must bear in mind that however we may view
this emigration in England, it is not regarded with entire i
satisfaction upon the other side of the Atlantic. (Hear,
hear.) I mention this more especially, because when we I
come to di cuss a particular motion of this sort, it is of
peculiar importance that we should not indispose
the North Americans (whether the people of the
United limbs, ar of our own colonies), to receive I
emigrants, by forming the notion that we are get-
ting rid of the rubbish of our population, and not allowing
those to proceed who, under other circumstances, we should
not gladly retain in our country. In the United States we
have lately seen measures taken of a very stringent nature,
requiring owners and masters of ships bringing emi-
grants to enter into securities—nor for months, but for
years—that they should not become chargeable to the relief
of the poor. These steps have been taken in Boston and New
York, and, no doubt, their tendency is to check immigration.
The Governor-General of Caned:, in a letter which I have
seen, state' to my nob' :riend to the effect that the Cana-
ciistia; great confidence in the are and prudence of
their neighbours in the United States, are thinking whether
it will not be proper for them to establish similar checks
upon the influx of emigrants as have the people of that
country. Then what it the testimony of the governor of
New Bruuswick and the governor of Nova Scotia ? The go-
venter of Nova Scotia, in • letter to Lord Grey, said, " ex-
treme privation and misery would undoubtedly ensue to
those emigrants who come here, and have not the means of
supporting themselves for two years at least." They must
not rely on the assistance of their friends who have come
out before them, for they will often be found in
as much need as themselves. Then the governor of New
Brunswick, in a recent despatch, said, "a measure has been
submitted to the legislature to provide for the allocation of
everyd ce n conduct emigrantso,iton to
coincideh ei r labours b
he gu.
t
appointed to inquire into the subject, whisk committee hvweeasF namdalleann'tis,with'thsne measure was abandoned, and a committee
re-
ported that though employment might be given in the culti-
vated districts to some extent, there would be greet dull-
cultiee attending the employment of labourers in the back
woods; and the despatch concludes, " I have no expectation
that any considerable number of emigrants would find employ-
ment in this colony." We have, then, the fact on the one
hand, that emigration is being carried on to an unusual extent
During the months of May and June the greatest amount of
emigration takes place, and we have the account up to the
middle of May, showing that 120,000 persons have emi-
grated un to that time ; and there is every reason to believe
that the emigration of this year will not fall much below
200,000 in numbers. (Hear.) And, on the other hand, we
have the fact of the restrictive laws which have been enacted
by the United States, and the testimony of the Governors of
New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and of the Governor-
General of Canada, stating that while there is a disposition
on the part of those colonies to receive emigrants with
kindness, there is reason to believe that employment
cannot be provided for them on their arrival in
these provinces, and a doubt is expressed whether
any facilities should be given to their introduction. Under
these circumstances I should be sorry to countenance the
notion that we were about to proceed with some vast plan
which would throw a large number of emigrants at once,
not on the shores of the United States—for thus laws have
been passed to prevent their arrival—but on the shores of the
British American provinces, which have as yet made no
similar laws ; and I hope the house will agree with me, that
in whatever vote we may come to ,or whatever resolution we
may pam, it would be most unwise, and in the end obstruct
the object which the noble lord has himself in view, if we
were to give countenance to the opinion that we were about
to give effect to come very extensive scheme, founded chiely
on our desire no longer to be burdened with a number of poor
persons who have not the means of subsistence in this country,
and not with the view of combining their advantage with the
advantage of the colonies at the same time. (Hear, hear.)
After stating this, I must remind the house that the plan of
Mr. Godley, which was recommended to me for consideration
—not for adoption, I must my—by a memorial, signed by
several persons of influence, and which I was given to under-
stand au to be the foundation of the noble lord's motion,
though I find he has, with great discretion, not adopted it—
(hear, hear)—Mr. die'', in his plan, states: " Little real
or permanent good can accrue to Deland unless, during the
next three or four years, two millions of people proceed
from theme to Canada and the British American
pronoun" What would be the result if such an
opinion went abroad, as that we were about to
adopt a scheme for sending forth so large a portion of
the population of Ireland to a place where it is evident there
would be no employment for them ? (Hear, hear.) Desti-
tute as those persons are here, there surely would be no
humanity or policy in sending them destitute and to be
beggars on the other side of the Atlantic. (Chun.) There
is one consideration connected with this subject which has
been well stated by my noble friend the Secretary for the
Colonies, in a despatch to the Earl of Elgin, which will be
laid on the table, dated the Ist of April, and which is worth
attention. He says " It is impossible to read the accounts
by recant writers of the lives of settlers in the backwoods
without being struck with the hardships and difficulties
endured by them—the greatwaut of labour, from the absence
of means to give it efficiency
by combination—we
find bread often in dear where corn is cheap, owing to
the distance of the mills, the want of roads, and the ab-
sence of forges for the manufacture of implements, Bcc."
There are really true acd practical observations. No doubt
them wants may be remedied, but not in the course of two
or WIN years, and no one can expect that the government
sirs= provide blacksmiths' forges, mills, and roads in the
dish= esWeinents of Canada. Even the provincial govern-
moot mold not be expected to do this, and it would be im-
psalblo for the government at home to do so. But the
pseinal progress of civilisation, combined with the ;low of
oodgration, will remedy these wants, gradually, certainly,
and successfully, in the same way ea it has been
dose in the United States and elsewhere. But when •
neatlemen, looking only at the present condition of
Ireland, says there are two millions of people here who must
be conveyed from hence to a distant part of the world in the
mane of three or four years, he forgets that it is not prac-
ticable to do so in the time, and likewise provide for them the
means of carrying on the ordinary employment of trade and
asriculture. (Hear.) This is a reason, not against the can-
alisation of means of colonisation, but it is a reason why
those who have to bear a part in the government of the
eenatry, and those who take a leading part in the debates of
ggs house, should avoid holding out the expectation
a which some of these writers have indulged in ; and why
we should be cautious when we as,, it is our wish to
colonisation, and agree with the noble lord that
rialto a useful subsidiary to a Poor Relief Act, that we
do not at the same time hied these people to imagine that the
tan afford to provide shipe to
i carry them annul
they
Atlantic to a country whereey may live n peace and
plenty, or say to the people of North America, whose inter-
ests we are bound to regard, or to the people of the United
Bates, who have behaved so nobly to us—(hear) " We will
transfer these destitute people to your shores, not caring
what mischief we inflict upon you by so doing." (Hear,
hoar.) Upon the motion of the noble lord I have a remark
to make, founded upon the despatch (which will be laid
before the house) written by my noble friend at the head of
the colonies, and.which would impose on me great difficulties
if it were my inclination to oppose this address of the
noble earl's. My noble friend, in his despatch to Lord
Alga says, " I have only to add that her Majesty's soars-
mat share in the desire which has been =premed to pro.
mote the adoption of some well-considered plan of Mimi=
don to British America, believing it would be attended with
great benefit both to the colonies and the mother country."
Sark Is say noble friend's declaration of the wish of the go-
verment, in the despatch dated 4th April, 1847. The noble
earl's address prays her Majesty to take into her most gra-
ding consideration the means by which coloasation may be
made salmidiary to other measures for the improvement of
the soda condition of Ireland; and by whisk, con-
Masa* with fall regard to the Inaerseishit the
Monies themselves, the comfort end of
those who emigrate may be .1
Now, elr, the government having dashed fo be their
wish. sad =be, if it be the pleasure d Ilms loess to inn-
eiats themselves with that wish and dies mg to *Woe
their readiness to assist the crown in the It MUM
to Maio As object, I cannot resist the et the tadls
lord. (Hoar, hear.) But the nettle hell bee not did that
inteepestalloo gra the mak= and If I do not vas against
it, I anet ha mama= not is waft Is his sapreta-
tion. The noble Wei premed aematien to make briber
inquiry as to the came, et eskohettee which elsdld be
adopted Now, with regard to the Shah—eD that Nair to
If destitution—we have
and it is unnsearry
and with respect to Se
bail: the
I should connive that Or Mrs wwhisk Nect
obtained, and which Teliais Is be °balsa, we mut
from the British Amerind (Hear, hear.) The
only question is how it is to . I think it wee lig
Godley who proposed that a commissioa should ip ovor owl
inquire. I suppose it wax meant that the ammassaof
unpaid commission should go over and bid medley
in Canada and the other provisos. the pins et
colonisation proposed, and elk t itstraeb Ile at m. Tina
such a plan, nothing could be wee saeatYidsey, Penns se
caged together, not having the reirmasibility of leghlaters,
could, on the faith of the epode. by which they wen in-
trodueed, carry the resolution pet bane them,
of the taxes they mightmean. err basnanienZaltE
might inflict. But if you map wish for peed
valuable opinions, you should take int thaw of snob Ewa as
I know
of no man more capable than Lewd Elgin of plaiting =fon
th
inch
mthathemeue Ppgonntires7veernnual;E:dfn"per2licthore;ahnl adadaotuilestiHeirnearldsofladdigail)--thwundid44:nb:a views of
athir
i loco
of the executive council, • body composed of persons Cli greet
experience as to the settlement of emigrants, and the
mode of employing labourers in clearing lads; and,
next, the opinion of the provincial assemblies. Eat
how can you obtain this? Not by a new commission;
for what authority would they have te hamaire
It is necessary that any such inquiry should some from the
crown, or from those organs of the crown in the previa*,
who are accustomed tio transact business with the isgislative
and executive bodies. In that respect the appolatniont at
a commission would not answer the papas which
the noble lord has in view. But would it sneerer the par-
eiabFereoixtfpeilrginuiegerarY.,inwthillio YwhareuetryhbeavinthrbiLthlithaill""allaMit="lassivessite%waskiar-I year
after year to this subject, who are in possesion of all this or-
dinary information, and who can all upon ma et preedial
weight and authority, many of them connected with dif-
ferent land societies, for any special information that may
be required. But there is another objection to
the appointment of • new commission. The noble
lord has referred to several plans. I do not think
that those plans constitute very encouraging precedents for
the noble lord ; for although most of them were framed by
persona of considerable talent, yet when they came to be
examined by men of practical authority they were shown to
be unfitted for the object of sound colonisation. (Hear,

hear.) A better speech on the subject of colon ‘.l[loll thee
that which my right hon. friend, the Judge-Atha-de, made
when he was sitting on the opposite side of the home, I
never heard in my life; but when his plan seas sent to
Canada, it underwent revision by Lord Metcalfe, who alter.
wards gave reasons which satisfied Lord Stanley and his
colleagues in the government, that such a plan ought not to
be adopted. (Hear, hear.) Again, my noble friend the pre-
sent Secretary of State for the Colonies, soot. alter be
came into office, proposed a plan of colonisation: that plan
was sent to persons connected with the colonies, who pintail
out faults in detail, and the great expense that must aria
from establishing the villages in contemplation; and the
result was, that my noble friend saw that the ect j
_pro could
not succeed, and at once abandoned it. Mr. Godley'e selse
has been pretty generally condemned both in mein;
and in Canada If you het a Separate tZiamiraiOn, haying'
been specially appointed to frame a plan of colonisation, Nina
not having laccd oa their shoulders the responsibility of
asking parliament for financial resources for this
object (hear, hear) and entertaining the highest
opinion of the wisdom of these unknown gentlemen
(Laughter.) I think they would frame a very tine paper
plan—(hear, hear),—involving a cost of some millions, sad
then leave it to the government of the day either to propel,
to parliament the means of defraying that cost, or the option
of refusing to act upon the recommendations given. For
these reasons, even if a resolution for an addresa I.e adopted,
I think it far better that, fur the present at least, the pen,
peeing of a plan should be left in the hands of tke executive
government. lam quite prepared to say what, indeed, my
noble friend has already said in his despatch, that we wish
to adopt some well-considered and systematic plan of colo-
nisation in British America. (Hear, hear.) We are
quite ready to direct the Governor of each of the
British American colonies to consult the legi,iatire and
executive bodies as to the plans which would be most useful
in the colonies, and to which they would moss readily lend
their aid; and let me say, I believe that unless you have
their aid and assistance, and, in fact, their hearty co-opera-
tion, no plan which you cm adopt would be. satisfactory. I
should be quite ready to lay the whole result of the recom-
mendations on the table of the house, and to give the opiaiea
of the government on the subject in another session e, pen
liament. I suppose the noble lord does not expect—he L. fat
too able and discreet to expect—that any plan should be
adopted in the present session—(hear, hear)—or that we
should attempt to check that stream of emigration which is
flowing so plentifully towards British America and other
colonies. Of all the plans which have come under consider-
ation, that which appears to me the.,,mag practicable, is that
of aiding and assisting in the conson of puelie waits
in those provinces to which the emigrants are likely to be
directed. But Ido not think the adoption of such a plan
depends merely on general maxims, or abstract policy on the
subject of emigration. I think, that at this particular time,
with the difficulties of the money market—with the im-
mense absorption of capital for railroads in the Unites King.
dom, to ask this house for some fresh drain of money, some
large division of capital, in order to aid public works 311 Britieh
North America, would be to make a most inoppirtuae and
unreasonable proposal. Such a proposal is not be maimed
merely by abstract reason or justice, but is to be cousidered
with reference to the particular time at which it is made; at
the same time I contend that is principle it is far better
than many of those plans of making villages aid settling
small communities in them ; and this I say, not ou accowit
of any reasoning of my own mind on the subject, but be-
cause it is the universal testimony of all who are acquainted
with the progress of colonisation in North America. It
is truly said that if you send out able-bodied men
who can earn wages whether -'by labour, in trade,
on roads, or on public works, and who, by obtaining good
wages, come in time to buy their little property, those men
will do well ; you will find them useful settlers end good
subjects, and they will promote civilisation in the colony,
But if you send them out at once, with all the habits which
they have formed in the United Kingdom, to the backwoods
of Canada, you will fled them so disappointed by the diffi-
culties which they meet with, such as that of having a spade
mended or corn ground, that instead of a primmer
village being created, the settlement will perhaps be
deserted. I agree with my noble friend in a statement
contained in his despatch, that great as would be the adras-
tages of suck a measure, they would be lees than the evils
which would follow from the hasty adoption of an ill-matured
and impracticable scheme, and that it would not be practica-
ble to proceed without the hearty co-operation of the provin-
cial legislature. lam quite ready to consent to An address
nearly in the words of my noble friend's despatch, but I can-
not advise the crown to appoint a commission for this special
object ; for my opinion is, that the effect would
be to give rise to extravagant expectations 'on one
side of the Atlantic, and to extravagant apprehen-
sion' on the ether. I think that the commission, after
going through many ill-digested schemes, would lay before
us a plan, which, however specious in appearance, would
hardly bear the sifting of practical men ; and I hold, there-
fore' that it is far better that the subject should he left in
the hands of the executive government. At the sines time
I fully concur in the noble lord's object. I quite admit the
ability, temper, and moderation of the speech in which he
introduced his motion, and I give him the fullest credit
for not wishing to embarrass the government, or to
throw any party obstacles in its way, and for being artaated
solely by a desire to aid in releasing the tourney from the
mighty difficulties by which it is encompassed. (Hear.)
Mr. G. W. HOPE said he had looked with sonic alarm
upon the emigration which had been going on for the last
year, fearing, as he did, that it had gone on without any
reference to the means of employment or subsistence (Hear)
He did not believe, with the noble lord opposite, that the
appointment of a commission would, in the slightest degree,
tend to stop the stream of emigration now going on from
Ireland ; but he thought it probable that, unless some good
provision were made for the employment and maintenance
of those who emigrated, the voluntary emigration of this
year would destroy that of subsequent years.
Mr. HUME said that the whole mistake of the debate
was in considering colonisation applicable to Ireland only,
and not to England and Scotland. He believed that one
great preventive to colonisatthn was the manner in which
the colonies were governed.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL was glad that something
was to be done on this subject, but the believed
that the credit of whatever was done would be due to Mr.
Godley, who had been so much censured for the part which
he took with regard to so important a subject.
Lord J. MANNERS said, there was one observatioa re-
peated twice by the noble lord (J. Russell) with reference
to the plan of Mr. Godley which required remark. He said
that plan would throw two millions of emigrants destitute at
the 'bores of America. Nothing in Mr. Galley's pamph-
lets or plan could warrant reach observations, and the accuse-
tion was perfectly unfounded.
Sir W. JAMES wished to understand if any special in-
quiry would be directed to the subject?
Lord J. RUSSELL said, there would be special liquifier,
but not by a special commission.
Sir W. JAMES, in supporting the motion, said, that
the noble lord by refusing to consent to the words of
this motion, and agreeing to ita principle, had got rid of it by
a side-wind.

After a few words from Mr. F. Scorr and Mr. AOLION
The Earl of LINCOLN said that if this debate had stood
in the position in which it had been left at the close of the
speech of the hon. member the Under Secretary for the Co-
lonies (Mr. Hawn), he should have felt it necessary to have
addressed some observations in reply to the hon. member,
but as the noble lard at the head of the government bad
acceded to his (the Earl of Lincoln's), MAIM, he did set
think it necemory that he should trouble the house with
any observations in reply. It had been said that themetita
was thus got rid of by a side wind. If the noble lord et
the head of the government, in adhering to the VMS tithe
motion, intended to avoid its spirit and intent, he (thaw,
of Lincoln) was not answerable. It was not for him to ler
pow what advice the noble lord, as tint minister of the
Crown, would tender to her Majesty in reference to die
addreM, any more than he could imagine who might bo
commissioners who might be appointed. However, ha (the
Earl of Lincoln) adhered to the views he had endeamerei
to explain to the house at en earlier period of the evesiode
and he was not without hope that this &curial "maid ime
to some good result, and that through it the goverammt
would be led to pay more attention to the important me*
to which it referred, than otherwise would have bees the
case.
The motion was then put and agreed to.
WARMINSTER UNION.
Mr. BOUVERIE rose, and wee promoting to mere kr
copies the correspondence between the guardians at at
eradiates' Union sad the Poor-law Comouroonsta
tire to the iefueal of the vicar of the parish to perfots the
banal service over the corpse of Sarah Garrett, • eloPir.
when
An How. Mmunia moved that the house be conatod•
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and only 31 mem
ben being found to be present, the house at one.tieloth
stood adjourned to 12 o'clock this day.