The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-17 00:00:00

THE EXPRFSS, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 17, 1849.

tfoa of the medical &ewe, in consequence of the inereavd
duties to which they were 'objected by the Board of Health,
sad which were not included in their original contract foe
attenuate on the sick poor.
- •

Mr. BAINES was understood to say that the subject wee
wader the confide ration of the board, and to request that the
question should be repeated on a future evening.
INTRAMURAL INTERMENTS.
Lord ASHLEY, la answer to a quer ion from Mr. NAo
imeori, stated that the eonsuiss:oners of Insley had entered
into an agreement with the authorities of a certain parish
(the seats was not beard), for the saspeasion of interments
for the present.
VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
The Earl of LINCOLN said be bad given notice to move
entails retulatioas on this subject on the motion for going
in o committee of supply ; but as they stood low on the paper,
be feared he should not hare an o7portunitp of bringing
them ea.

--- ---
PROPOSED REDUCTION OF SALARIES
Mr. HENLEY said that in proposing the motion he was
about ro submit'. he kid no wish to cut reflections on any of
the 'deers employed. either in the ordnance or other depart-
/outs The trommittee which had recently sat en the ordnance
es *metes had dadiaed to reconunead gay rodoetion of seta
rise, ea the starved that each redaistioanizatio to form a part of
some general alteration in the salaries to public eflicen.
It happened to nations, r to isdivid to he called on at
time. le take a view of the position in which thee stood. The
Mot time this had bees dose was in 1830 or 1831, at the
easing la of what was called the Reface governmeat,l
when • termites was appointed to revise the eateries
of Or higher oaken of state. He, therefore, proposed to ,
ash the attacks el the house in the state of the country at
that time and this, sad to the elifferates in the price of pro-
ebleas. (Hear, hear.) la 1831 the gross expeeditun of
tM ountty, Including the charge of oullecing the ue,
was 51,700,0001. In round graben; la 1848 it was
58.990.0001., being en Meson of alma 14 per cent. It was
true the tattoo had Increased 18 our cent.; but if the
expenditure were measured in cotton, corn, or
say of Use staple productions of the °Gentry, it would be
found that the rause was musk greater ; nosared in corn
it was sot bee thee 44 per cont. Hesse, the expenditure,
though it lad sot greatly isairesed la mosey entoeint had
bear it.
isereased
la 1831 la roil prewateepalation r beyond O
of eem d (be e the prower_ the =a::
the fi
liaised, its eciadltion being so CCM f tient WM 12,11117 me;
and the erimleals were 10,647. Ia INS pinholes hod
ern to 17,497.000 ,• het the eriminals were then x,889.
(Hear, Mar.) This he attributed net to any deorralksikm,
but to distress. (Hoar.) Poe years past it leas the
lot of Chancellors of the Exchequer to have •
sad he feared, notwithstandiag the favourable baker cheat
recently preentsd, that the eau would not be shawl le the
resat yeer. fines 1831. when the public Weeks were
Let esesed, there had been • reduction of nearly 10rp
rat. la the pries et almost all the newswires if
Ufa. If, then, the gaieties were reduced 10 conk,
that would be • fair partition of the
In rbripisg this ratios, he could make no
between the higher awl lower grades of officer'. This was
perhaps the meat nornelons tees that any individuel could
aadetruke. He had been appealed to whether he would
wry this Moors din to the lowest grade of servants,
who, he believed. were the country letter-earriers. The
bias:trate of salary whit* be head was rid to say govern-
ment servant not • mecomeis was to the letter.eanier, who
Weird 12s. a week. (flaw hes. member said 75.) In his
seishboarhecel it was l2s. TM Leternwriers were taken
from the labouring simes, end, apse as avenge, walked
18 miles a day, whisk more a very hard day's work. Now
-the weir of the laboarkeg rem from whom these letter-
carriers were labia, had loess reduced at least leper sent. of
late, and he saw mermen why tie letter-carriers should be
exempt from the Ist of their class. (" Oh, oh," and hear.)
The tell in prices whisk had taken place during the last 20
pun would hies occurred had there been no legislative in-
terference—is feet it was isuitable. Then were many
causes for this fall. The supplies of food and of the roma.
ries sad luxuries of life were grater; then bad been great
Improvements in maehinery; the duties on artio s imported
were lower; and, indeed, the only thing that he knew of
that had maintained its price during the let 20 years was an
ash rick, for he paid bd. for it then, and be was asked GC
for it now. (A laugh.) He would go tone
the different heads of the public expenditure for sals-
as@ and allowances. The custom department showed pay-
ments in salaries and allowances of 1,041,0001., the excise of
618,2441., the stamps and taxes 378.1251.. the post Oleg
5.521001, the woods and forests 44,0001., making in all
2,644,0004 • year. He collected from the financial report of
1848 that the annual charge in the miscellaneous estimate
forte civil departments of justioe, the colonies, paid coin-
minions, and other charge* was not leas than 183,0001. In
edditint to this, the civil erahlislunents of the oedema" and
military unites cost 810,0001., and the diplanatie envies
goat 140,0001., making in the whole 4,700,0001. in round
numbers.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Hoes the hon. member include in
this sum the pay of the army and navy ?
HENLEY—Certaialy not. Nothing has been esti-
mated but the pay. of the Urinate, clerks, and others em-
ployed in the various dockyaids, ordnance and military
offices ; and this did not embrace the shipwrights, art'.
fleets, or mechanics. He next come to the con-
Mention of the difference in the pries of the suer
wire, the conveniences, and the luxuries of life, whisk had
taken place between 1831 and the present time. He found
that in 1831 the price of meat was quoted from 4s. to 4a. Id.,
and from 4s. &I. to sa. 3d. per stone. According to the retail
prices of meet sow, it was selling atefrom Id. to ltd. per lb.
cheaper than it then was, a reduction in prim amounting to
from 10 to 15 and 17 per c,nt. The next
article was bread, which had fallen during !be last 20
haars at least 23 percent. If he examined the pries el gractries
found the same reduction in pekes, or even •party one.
In the whole there was • redaction of 30 per ask
With respect to serthenware and glue, he ford a
diminution in price of 20 per cent. In furniture,
feather beds, mahogany bedsteads, chairs, tablea,bilf=
earpets, tr., there bad been • diminution of 20 per cent.
La all these ears he had obtained his data from Sneers
tradesmen, as the rate of profit which they charged was
not so high as that charged by inferior dealers. Call had
diminished in price 25 por cent. • ' cotton manufscturee, from
26 to 30 per cent. ; liars, 15 per cent. ; woollese, 10
per cent. ; hosiery, from 15 to 20 per cent. Having
now ps• through the various priees of the articles
of food and clothing, he would only observe that the cost of
locomotion had very much diminished of late, as arty one
would know who bad travelled in an omnibus for 3d. where
he had formerly to pay Gd. ; and that reduction in
price was universal throughout the kingdom. The
principal that had been laid down as the modern guide
for economists was, that there must be more work end
has mosey paid for ie. (" Oh, oh," and hear, hear.)
Tog, that was the basis of modern economy, and in one re-
spect he must admit the principle had been carried out in
the public offices, for much more work was now exacted
from the persons employed there than was formerly thecae.
He saw no reason why the public servants should not be
made amenable to the ether half of the condition, end be
;al less money than they sow were. Is all the relatioes of
life lees money was now paid for more work than formerly
was done, and he caw no reason why the public
servants were to be remied from this condition.
Even with --- the -

' saps* to &my same
that had been established towards the labouring
dames was named in his ease. Hie income had
has. Axed by • ant& invariable standard of value of
produce, and yet the legislature had not hesitated to reduce
the value of that produce, cad, coneequently, to lower the
clergyman's ;moss is proportion. He, therefore, implored
the noble lord and the Chaacellor of the Exchequer, who
were the natural gaardisas of the intense of the public
service, to consider how ter it was wise to resist or to give
way betimes, and with a good gram, upon this
point. With these observations, and %basking the
house for the attaetiou with which he had been bosomed,
be begged to move that a reduatios of 10 per seat. be made
is all Id .pies la the ardaanse department and in the other
tispanmeats of govornmont at home and abroad. (Clams)
The CHANCELLOR of the RICHEQIIER slated that
ho was sure every one who bend him would give him credit
he sot being influenced by any pentad feeling, when he
Pealsted the motion sow made upon general grounds. The
bee. gentleman included all dune of persons in the public
Swim is his motion, fres the 'Lord Chastosllor down to the
peer lattwearvier who roesivorfs. • week.
Mr. HENLEY mid be did sot Welsh them engaged in
the law is hie motion. (Crime Oh, oh," and leagleur.)
The CHANCELLOR of dos RICHEQURR—The hon.
=ladid sot propels to mask the highest paid tune-
in the klagdom ; but the very lowest were not to
be exempted from his modes (Chem)
Mr. 1111311LEY—They will seas afterwards. (Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the BICHEQUER—Then this
was the flat instaloseat. (Laughter.) At the present time
the hon. radium exempted the army and navy, and the
law. (Hear) Now, lie tkraght it would be muck Won
for the boo. petlessaa to Wog iseward • sweeping Namur*
at Gem, soul this die whole swift of his preposition might
be at eine amemeed. (Host hoer.) This question bad
hers los bye oiwislites in 1831, 'thigh mode eon-
a radestiene The Bearettery of the Treasury was
Masai 1,0001. •
the
B•aretsries of State, 1,0001.
• Under , 6001. a year.. the Lord Pre.
stssati VOL a year; Paddent of the Board
of Oentrol, 1,6001.; the Flat Lord of the Admi-
ralty, NOR The Wend paid at the minor Offiellil were
all pissed sew to saw sede-2,0011., sod one of these,
the Paymaster of the rotes% bad base Mimed to 8001. a
year. Ile would my that is the publie diem persons were
paid is a lower proportion than la private simatien• As to
ihe clerks—paths -servants, they were not pad as mesh a
he.. gestalt Y that his.. paid to Wit ism* ser-
vants. Am to »dodos, theretbougbt waft 1800 fads in
eon departmen alone. Re that the
nenaleer furthert ramekins might lied., in
bet be
did woo think it rigid to Mew the sabeht. (Nor.)
He did not rightly nadorseemi tie prisdpio se whisk the
right bon. gentleman promodad. He drew a distention
betowees wages and the salaries of $lllOlll. A shipwright. so
being a mechanic, be did sat eseddsr liable to »deaden is
his wages, while he midi mien the smell slim of psi.
scam employed is the elan guard. Ito meld cot undlorstaal
why the hon. gelatines sada meek a distinction. Talus
the case of persons employed le the omens service. Why,
it was questionable whether the malibms et their Slow-
ness* .4
_pis w eseslipsse_lbin a lemplatises which it
w vety dfiteft to beer)Lail yet all that
stem the hoc. wield wield reduce.w
. fb• ism of whist would mine ItiflLlisaTl:soas for
=ion, aid yei war cuss.;... that that was a service
it woe most mow* lad ria• so SU. Then there
was the poem= Si. emenley lewd, who got 12e. per week,
while, as the his. gondeepta remarked, a carter got bat 10s.
or Ile. Bat was ON 1101911111119 eo great en overpayment as
to sedeation,. pertienbily wive the postman was
obliged to bo able to rem( awl Imre, once t 9 lritetv4rtby

He (the Chancellor of the Excheqeer) very Inch suspected
that, if they tamed to the annals of the time, they would
tad that a large p..rtioe of the higher officers of govern-
ment had rather been ruined in the intblie service than
amassed fortunes in it. (Hear, hear.) The hooonrable
gestkmaa had said that the pro wan of taxation on such
that the people were 00 longer elite ta pay the present high
solarise. But the hoe. path man forgot that a large amount
of taxation bad been taken off principally upon &rejoin
of general eonsumptioe. No less than between 7,000,0001.
end 8,000,0001. had been taken off in that way
within the last five or six years. Tilo pressure of taxation
upon the great body of the people bad thus been greatly re-
lieved. (Hear, hear ) And how had the ue bnis main-
tained ? Why, by the imposition of a direct tat on income,
which tax had, of coon, been applied to persons holding
official situations as well as to others, sad included all who
had salaries at and above ISOL a year. (Hear, hear.) Hs
begged to remind the hon. gentleman also that • majori,y of
the committee who eat last year on the public expediters
refused to concur in the proposal to reduce the salaries of
the chief ((fixers of government. He found that on
division only two gentlemen voted for a reduction of
the salary of his noble friend (Lord J. lkinesell). With
respect to the general run of puhlie servaata, he was
nitrated that the salaries were no larger la proportion
than the minks of penis of • similar description em-
ployed in private establishments. He confessed that he did
sot understand the principle upon which wages and place
were to be distinguithed one from another—he did not see
the evened of that distinction which was nought to be estab-
lished between the coast guard and the sailor—be was not
able to understand hew one was to be enesideved as hold-
lag a pine, Yid the other as receiving wages. Farther, it
Meuse • very serious question whether they ought sot to
make peat marifices rather than expose person eegsged
the lower gaols of the public service to the temptation which
neersearily nose oat of insufficient payment. It was Inte-
-1 fine that many persons employed in the public service were
very insufficiently paid. Toe committee of 1831 gave what cep-
peered to him the best recommendistion which circumstances
r permitted with regard to the salaries of the higher
officers, and It had et all time struck his mind that
nothing could be wane than the perpetual fluctuations
which the plans of the boa. member opposite would have the
I effect of introducing. He did not believe that parties in the
public service were overpaid, sad 'wilting could be men
I to the discharge or the duties attached to that
ieeifere or would, in the end, be more crependve to the
imam than not adequately to pay the person engaged
Is It. Ho must, therefore, oppose the motion of the hon.
patleman.
• ' '

NEWDEGATE would have great pleasure in voting
for the motion of his hon. friend the member for Oxford-
shire. The value of money had been, for come years past,
rapidly increasing under the combined action of our financial
and commercial policy, and the sweeping changes
made in the value of property, called for some
variation in the 'denier and remuneration of offloes.
Let them see how the Americans acted in the metier
of their tariff; they reduced the duties on aff
articles of import which didShellmn not themselves '
produce, while they kept up the h h duties on those which I
they produced, and thus their • claws had the'
benefit of a reduction in those articles which did not come
into competition with articles of their own production ;
whilst their wags* were maletained by the protecting pro-
visions of their tariff. We had weed differently, ant with
what consequences was pretty evident. He wished
to state the grounds ea which he supported his 1
hon. friend; they were, that the policy of government was a
policy of impoverishment of the producing classes; that it
was a policy that enhanced
unjustly the value of money;
that it oppressed Lim whose labour was his capital ; and he
knew no means by which this question could be brought'
before the house on more just grounds than those which had
been staled by his right hon. Mend. They wen making the
rich man richer, and the poor man poorer. Look at the
returns of the income-tax. The last return showed
that the pressure of 1847 fell with the greatest
severity upon the poor. Taking the extremes of
income under the income-tax, it would be found that
there was added under schedule D two individuals to the
inane of then, being twenty, who in 1846 had more than
50,0001. a year, whilst the number of those whose income
had been returned under 1501. per annum had diminished
since 1846,1,481.

Mr. V. SMITH said that as he had been placed in a very
prominent pcsition on the committee from which the hon.
gentleman opposite bad quoted at an early period of his speech,
he hoped the house would escape him if he stated his view
of the case as recorded in the sentence which the hon. gen-
tleman had quoted from the report. The main reel-
In.ion proposed in committee was fur a reduction of
the salaries of the principal ofilcen of state, and many
members declined to vote because they said thi y had
not all the estimates; that If the house meant to
reduce salaries they should reduce them altogether.
At that time there was ose of those great popular
outcries for general economy which sometimes pervaded
this country, the committee was given by the ministry who
had jut then changed, and their object was to cut off the
high salariis, but tans was no adaptation of the salary to
the work to be performed. In the present salaries there
was a great anomaly. The Secretary for the Treasury was
paid 2,5001. e year; the Under-Secretary of &ate
had only 1,5001. a year. The pay of the president
of the Board of Trade was only 2,0001. a year. The
office of president of the Poor Law Board was moat
laborious, Irksome, and responsible. His payment
was en anomaly. Although he differed from the hen.
gentleman In some parts of his speech, he thiught the
county was indebted to him or any man who brought for-
ward this economical question; because, in this year, which
began with so high a tone they had hadi less discussions on
the estimates then any. year that he had sat In parliament.
As reseeded the principal (flees of state there was
a considerable difference in their expenses at the present mo-
ment and what they were in 11131. There was einsicierable
difference In the manner of living and in the pomp of
high office. In 1831 his noble friend, if he had
had to go to Windsor, would have been obliged
to go in a chaise and four. Now he took a day ticket, and
saved 200 and 300 per cent. If the hoc. gentleman had con-
fined his motion to a reduction of per center on these sala-
ries, he should have been happy to give him his vote, but
when be came to the other part of the question, the question
of total reduction, he shrank from his own conclusion, be-
cause he assumed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and
a letter carrier were en the same footing.
Mr. HENLEY.—They were patent plass.

Mr. V. SMITH.—Did the bon. gentleman mean to ex-
clude all patent places? The Chancellor's was not a patent
place ; he was changed with every ministry. If the hon.
gentleman meant to carry his pruning kilts into the incomes
of those who had accepted their situations on the faith of the
country that they should have an income during their lives,
with a proportionate ri.e, he could not follow him. His hope
we. that government would thotneelves undertake the inquiry
into the anomaly of the payment of dam, and into those
offices where reductions could be made. Tempting as was
the opportunity of coalition on the present madam, he
ventured to deeds" to vote with the resolution new pro.
posed.
Mr. ROEBUCK would say • few words upon this
motion, because he did not mean to vote upon it. His
reason for not voting was, that he might be mistaken. The
mason why he did not support the hoe. gent. was bemuse be
sincerely believed his motion was an unjust cue. He did
not Mb to impute motives to the hon. gentlemen, but it
appeared to him to be what somebody bad called " a flash in
the pan." It appear.d to be exceedisyy deceptive: it
bons economy ea the fees of it, yet it it was
real is Its character, it never would be opposed. It was op-
posed now. Why ? Because certain things bad been done
in this house with respect to various measures of the govern-
ment by which corn and other things had been made cheaper.
And this, them, was to be the counter blow to the adminis-
trades who had been supposed to have rendered cheap
various commodities. Could the hon. member for Oxford
really inlaid this to be a practical motion ? It be badmen*
to the Mau and said, here is a thing which is on.
neemeary, will you vote against it? he (Mr. Roebuck)
would have gone out with him. If he had come
and said, here is a place overpaid, he would
have gem with him ; bat whoa he ease and said all
,salaries, without exception, are to be taken and reduced 10
per ant., was not be (Mr. Roebuck) bound to inquire whe-
ther all Marks were overpaid—whether all working men were
overpaid ? He was bound to say that it was not the case.
Was a poor man, who worked carom 10 to 6, to be redieed
in his salary and expectations, and sent home 10 per cent.
poorer ? He said it was • Mau upon the hussy, it was •
shame epos common honour and hoseety, when they se
eompaaled it with such a mode of proceeding regarding
higher "Saes. The hon. gentleman mired the DM
Chmealler, and said it was • patent plum. He (Mr. Roe-
buck) did net eon whether It was a patent pram or not.
The question was, was the ma overpaid for the labour
whisk he performed? If he were etv=: cur
to kim down the proper sad just and
every one that had mere than enough the
purpose, cut him down. altogether, bed to take this whole
sale way precluded their &sting upon it, and that was his
great objeetim to who/male proceeding. To show the hon.
gentleman's inceasisteney, ke took the ease of • letter-
surfer, whom be coiled a plea-holder ; he said that ids
outer did as muck work ae the letter-carrier. What was
the difference between an artisan in a naval dockyard and
the letter-carrier ? They both did certain service, and
good service, for which both were paid. The hon. gentleman
reduced the letter carrier but not the artisan in the
dockyard. He must Inv one thing about one
dam of Willa servants. There were • great number
of public somata so called who were engaged to maintain
the splendour of the throne, and the splendour of the Fr-
menuseat. He ebonite that the honour on that mama
was quite 'efficient pay. There was so much of distinction
in Ms matter, that be could well allow distinction ti be the
reward; and if the hen. gentleman would only beela with
them high offices, he would get much more popularity than
be was likely to obt•in by his present promedieg, and, he
would answer for it, more justly. Let him
with thou curious offices, 'the remain" of b"&b:
feudal times. The °feces of grand falconer, the
master of the horse, the lords and ladies of the bedchamber.
If he would begin with that dam of official servants, he
(Mr. Roebuck) would anew* for it that he would meet
with a vast deal of sympathy. When he vote of the poor
letter-carrier, he owned he had no faith in his notions of
economy.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND was surprised that the hen. and
learned gentleman should have concluded his speeds with
a proposal to curtail the salaries of persons whom he had stig-
matised, who were not paid out of the public puree.
Some whom he had enumerated were not paid at all.
If then was any fault in this motion ‘ it was the fault of her
Majesty's ministers and their friends. They had boasted
that Ore bad reduced the prime of all commodities' 60 per
cent.—he was not blaming them for it ; he accepted it—but
wan sot that raising their own fined salaries ? The lien.
member 10 Northampton had said it was a notorious can,

and everybody else admitted, that the fixed salaries of pub-
lic servants had increased 60 per cent. It sea • mete firm
of speech to talk of reducing their salaries; they
had raised their salaries. With respect to the
judge', corals ly, the hon. gentleman who brought
forward the motion was perfectly right in excepting them,
because he remembered the time when their salaries were
raised; and the ground of raisiag their salaries we, this.
that no men, eminent at the bar, could be got to 811
thee situations. He had but one objection to this
motion. It looked to him something like ekes legisla-
tion. He had much rather that the Chancellor of the
Eschequer shook' boldly graph with the question, and
adopt a measure which should redoes every ions from the
very highest to the lowest—he wruld not exclude the income
of any rib man, whether he held public, office or not. He
had alluded to this subject but abghtly on • former oece-
du, and he was more and more convinced that m must
shift the pablie harden from the low to the high; you
must take, nowt the high, all Shoe, who had large in-
comes, celled the rich, and upon them you mast lay a ninth
larger burden than you did at present He could not refuse
to vote for the motion of the bon. gentleman ; he knew that
a great number of persons, when matinee of this kind were
brought forward, said, " We are delighted with this motion,
but—". There was always a " but," and, no matter who
brought forward fioancial reform of any kind, there were
always 19 " buts " out of 20 votes.
Kt HUME said that the various bon. members who had
addressed the house had wandered front the real question.
He trailed that no one would mix up questions of
currency and of recent changes in value with the sim-
ple Tr Won before the house. In its general scope
sad intention, it could not be celled an toue motion,
and he would ask his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer), who opposed it on that pound, whether he
considered that the public musts were properly paid in
1848 and 1847. (Hear, hear.) It that were conceded, and
that sines that time relations had been altered between those
who paid and those who received, it could hardly 'de called
unjust to alter the scale of salary accoedinely. Since that
time the price of every article of consumption bad been re-
ducel 20 or 30 per cent., and sorely public servants could
not complain of what was virtually an inn in
their salaries to that extent were not permitted.
He could not therefore agree that this was an unjust motion,
although he thought that his (Mr. Home's) own motion, if
he had had an opportunity of bringing it forward, would have
answered the purpose bettor. The object of that motion
was to pledge the government to keep in view the reduced
prices of articles of consumption, and the circumstances of
the country, in all future arrangements respecting salaries.
(Hear, beer.) That was a motion to which no one would
rave objt cid, but he we, absent at the time it should have
come on, and of course lost hi opportunity. He did net
agree altogether with the present motion, and yet he should
vote for it. (A laugh.) He voted for It, although
disagreeing from it in part, because it would be
a pledge on the part of the house that it meant to reduce
the public expenditure. (Hear, hear.) The Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer had not noticed what took place in
1822, after a motion for reduction. That motion called for
en &deletes to the crown, to make all peseible redaction in
the army and other public establishment', and in compli-
ance with it the government appointed a committee of their
own, which went into every public department and laid
upon the table a large volume, showing that very consider-
able redactions had taken pies. Those reductioos were not,
however, salleient to meet the inure of the times now,
although then they were generally approved of, u the
creased prime were still maintained. In 1831 a motion was
brought forward under different circumstances. While oat
of office the waists joined in full cry with him for reduction.
(Laughter.) When they took office he called upon them to
redeem their pledges, and Lord Althup frankly admitted
tits) obligation. A committee was appointed, of which he
(Mr. Home) was one, and they endeavoured to lay down
such rules a would meet the neceesities of the ease. He be-
lieved that ea that committee there was a general feeling
that no person should be planed in a public situation without
the means of maintaining hi proper rank in society, bat
yet there was a strong impression UM salaries had gone far
beyond their proper amount, and had consequently induced
an extravagant mode of living in all noes of sodete. He
could recollect the time when a man who had 1,0001. •
year in land we, somebody ; but when men came
to be collectors of excise with 1,5001. • year and some
Maiale with more Yr. Croker had 4,0001. for ma
years things uned • different aspect. He repea
then, that he supported this motion, not as that which he
would have proposed himself, but as one giving in some seat
a pledge for economy. He trusted it would be adopted by
government, who could alone carry out effectually any plan
of retrenchment. (Hear, bear.)

Mr. HERRIES regretted that hie sense of justice and of
the necessities of the public service compelled him to oppose
the motion of his hoe. fiend. The hoe. member ler
Montrose supported it as a pledge fa the direc-
tion of economy, but it was a pledge that
could not be carried out without injuot,ce to the
public service. To reduce all salaries of public servants in-
discriminately ten per cent. would be most unjust and im
proper. His hon. friend (Mr. Henley) said that be-
tween 1831 ar d the present time there was a soot difforer.ce
in the price of commodities, sad assumed therefore that
there should be a proportionate difference in salaries; but
the main failure in his hes. friend's statement was, that it
assumed a thing as a fact which was not a fact—namely.
that there had been no reduction in the salaries of public
servants since 1831. (Hear, hear.) With respect to these
great departments, there had been, sines 1833, great
reductions. In one department the number of per-
sons employed in 1833 was 9.053 ; in 1819, 7,087
being a reduction in persona of 2.051, while the salaries were
reduced from 962,0001. to 715,0001., being a differenoe of
247,0001, the ratio of diminuti .n being 26 per cent. In per-
cents, and 22 ins lary. (Hear, hear.) It might be as well
here to remark, that the seeress of salary in the excite
stamps and taxes was only 1011. 14.. for each person, and
from that it was now proposed to take ten per cent. The
fact was, that there had been a gr 'dual decrease going on in
the public department, since 1831, so that it was quite a
mistake to deal with this subject as if it were a new creation.
(Hear, hear.) He contended further, that the subject had
been carefully attended to ever since the peace. In 1331 them
had been searching inquiry, and the result had been a
reduction in one department of 20.0001, out of H 3,0001.
salaries, or about 16 per cent. He believed that that
committee was convionad that reduction could not go far-
ther, lint since that there had been successive commissions
of revision, and great reductions were effected. In the
custom. as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had informed
them, ;eduction' had been effected to the amount of
80,0001. It should also he remembered that when
these salaries were in worse of adjustment corn was
much lower than at present, heist only 39e the quarter,
and that afterwards it media 1839 to 70e. (Hear, hear.)
II they reduced salaries= this ground, they must also Mae
them when corn increased in price, and they would have to
determine a corn salary instead of a corn rent. Than such a
rule, nothing could be more prejudicial or unjust, especially
to the lower clue of clerks, with salaries of 601, 701., or 901.
a year. The greater part of the repulses of persons in that
class of life were of a hied character. They could not go
to their landlords, with whom they had agreements or limes,
perhaps, for a term of years, and say, " my salery is reduced,
you must reduce my rent in proportion." Nor could they
expect the (aroma company to reduce the annual pre.
mium on the policy, by means of which they were snaking
some provision for their families. (Hear, hear.) They could
not reduce these nor the various other Reed charges on their
incomes. His hen. friend (Mr. Henley) did not, like his
other hoe. friend the member for Warwickstire (Mr.
Newdegate) rest the proposed !sanctions in salaries on the
effects which recent changes in our commercial policy had
had upon prices, but took generally into account all the dif-
ferences between the circuenstmees of 1831 and 1849. But
those variations bad already beet taken into eonsiderati au
by the committee which had met neon the subject. and by
the government. (Hear, hear.) His other hon. blend (Mr.
Newdegste) supported the proposition on account of the re-
ductious in the prices of all articles of consumption, coose-
quent on the policy of late years. New, without in any way
ing his opinion in respect to that policy, he (Mr. Har-
riet.) was not prepared to admit that it had prod's:ea the
effects his hon, friend ascribed to it, or that it had
resulted in so much relief in such a cheapening of pro-
visions as to justify him in agreeing to a motion for
reducing the salary of every public officer 10
goodea (Hens, hear.) If the principle was a
good one, why was it not to apply to all public salaries and
public pay of every kind? (Hear hear.) If all public see.
vAnts had, as his hen. friend said, been benellted 20 per
rent. by the alteration in prices, it w:s proper that the Iv-
auction in salaries should extend to all who received their
Income from the public pure—'o the army, the navy,
the judges, and the lord chancellor, as well as the ,
public serrates in ether departments. (Heim hear.)
Ho went in this respect with the hon. member for Montrose,
. and could not see bow they could Whet these redactions on
the government officers and exclude the Lord Chancellor.
The average of the whole o/
film salaries in the Excise,
Stamps, and Tuts, was 100/. a Pter ; but the salaries ie
the Eloise alone, averaged only 1131. a year. And what
would be the. result if they gave a pledge to take
10 per oast, from those, without inquiry es to the duties per-
formed—whether the parties were underpaid or not ? It
was on these grounds that be could not concur in the mce,
tim. H 4 hoped the house would 'cons der this question
with a due regard to the interests of those whose Interests
were, after all, the Jaen*s of the public, and bat for whom
our revenue could not be collected us it now wag at 61 per
cent. He believed if tuck a motion were carried we could
not expect the same devoted attention, the same seal and
fidelity to the duties of the various departments as was
given now. (Hear, heir.) • very few years ego a very
full repot was made by tha Minister of Finance in France,
in which he endeavoured to explain the.reeesas why in Befr-
iend the revenue wee 'Greeted at 6 per cent, while in
Prima, when they were yet eeosomiml, they could not col-
lect it at less than 14 per cent. That minister hid attributed
the difference to the character of our public somata. (Hear,
hear) He warned them how by any set of the house they
removed that safeguard and that element of economy; and
, concluded by expri ming his determination to vote against
the motion of his hon. friend.
Mr. HEINTZ observed that the pants onaplained, sad
with reason, that while everything else was reduced the
• salaries of the government and government officers had not
been reduced. He should vote for the motion, but wished
it had gone further. Knowing the feeling of hit constituents
on the subject, he should not be doing his duty if he failed
, to advocate every fair and honest reduction in the public
. tixtriv;ftere. He therefore should vote for the motion.

Lord i. RUSSELL remukel that those who had spoken
in favour of the motion had done so, saying that they did not
altogether like it, and that they wished it had bees soma-
thing different to what ft was ; yet that on the whole, see-
ing that it went for reduction and economy, they thought
it desirable to support it. If that was the opinint of those
bon. gentlemen, he must owe he did stet OM it was a
proper mutes for the House of Comical to pan a motion

which ins supporters eassidered onjeetionable, leaving It to
be found out afterwards how it could be carried into effect.
(Hear, hear.) Taking the salaries of the p iacipal M-
oire of state, as reported on by the committee of 1831, he
found, fi st, that the First Lord of the Treasury had 5,0001.
a veer, which they said 555 the lane as was paid to that
oak" in 1750 Bat in 1780, and previ on to that year, it
was usual fee the First Lord of the Treasury, or minister of
the day, to hold some other office, some sinecure (sometimes
to himself, and at others such offices were given to his sons),
reducing, perhars, 3,0001. or 4 0001. a year. And with
regard to the Secretaries of the Treasury, their salary is
1730 was upwards of 6,0001. a year each. The Secretary of
State for the Home peps:taunt had, in 1782, a salary Si
8,1481. ; and M 1793, 8,793/. The Secretary or S 'ate for Erreizn
Affairs had, in 1782, 8,1481.; and the Secretary for the
CelOnies• when the office wee first established, 6,0001. It
would not, therefore, answer the honourable gentle-
men's purpose now to say, let as reduce these
missies to what they were in 1780. Since that period sone
of these salaries had been reduced to 6,0001, and thence to
5,0001. in pumice of the report of the committee. With
regard to these salaries, and the duties on account of which
they were paid, the principle on which the committee of
1831 bad proceeded, and on which the house ought to go, was
totally the reverse of that now proposed. The committee
considered whether the service would be sufficiently well paid
and efficiently performed at certain salaries, and having
formed their opinion, they proceeded to fix those salaries at
much below what they were in 1782, and much lower than
they had been at any previous time. But if they were now
to go on any other princip'e, the hon. gentleman must see
in what confusion he would place all the public Aloes.
There were some in which the salaries were fixed beforethe
war, others which were inquired into only tiering last year,
and the salaries fixed according to the estimates
Oren made of what the duties were which were
required to be performed; and if they took ten per cent.
from all thus alike, it was obvious they would not be doing
thessine Justice to all these different officers. (Hear, hear.)
1 hat which would be fair and proper to one, the boo.
gentleman could not think would be equally just to the
other. With regard to the salary of the Secretary for the
Home Department, that was inquired into last year by
official persons appointed for the purpose, who re-
viewed the whole duties of the office, mid settled
the salaries of all the persons connected with it.
He rem'mbersd that the right boa. gentleman the mem-
ber for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) said, when he proposed
his brooms tee, that he would take 3 per cent. from every
income over 1501. ; and that by the measures he then pro-
mised, and other measures he meant to propose, he thought
such • reduction of 3 per cent. would be compensated for in
the lower price of provisions. (Hear.) That was a fair
estimate and a fair expectation, but it was to apply to all
classes ; and if they took 3 per cent. from the office clerk or
the secretary of state, they took the same from the man
whose income was derived from property in the funds or
in land. (Hear, hear.) But take the case as
now proposed.. lieu was a man, perhaps, who
left property, filmier a certain. yearly leams to one son;
but another son, by superior intelligence and ability, ob-
tained an appointment in a public office at • salary of 1601.
or 1701. a year. From the first they would take 3 per cent. ;
that was their law—(hear, heat)—but from the second the
would take 13 per cent.-3 per cant. as income tax, and 10
per cent. under this proposition. That was not, in his opi-
nion, a fair or &jut estimate of the value of the public ser-
vice. (Hear, hear.) He did not think a man who endea-
voured te obtain his livelihood in a public office, and showed
seal, intelligence, and industry in the discharge of his duties,
should be treated in a worse manner than a person who
chewed no such ability and made no each exertion. (Hear.)
If the ton. gentleman meant to contend that the clerks in
the public offices were too highly paid, that was a subject
fee inquiry. (Hear.) No one could reasonably object tol
Institute such an inquiry into the excise or any other de-
partment if it should be found necessary ; but, as he had
stated, as to some of the public departments -as to the
Home-offier and the Treasury—there had been inquiries
eery recently, and reductions had been made in consequence.
Le the stamps and taxes many reductions had also been made.
Another office had been inquired into in 1831 and 1832, when
Lord Althorp was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and many
sad rest reductions resulted from that inquiry. It might
be fair and proper to inquire again into all these various
offices, sad when the reductions already made were found in-
saffi4ent to reduce still further. Bat to come with one swoop
and say all salaries shall be reduced, and that those salaries
which are now hardly 'efficient as a remuiieration for the
duties performed, and which if a committee were to inquire
into the subject would probably be declared insufficient,
should be all cut down in the same proportion as those which
night possibly tarn out to be excessive, was a proposition se
unjust and so absurd that he was sure the House of Cont-
emns would arra sanction it. (Hear, hear.) The hoe. gen-
tleman said be would not touch the law (Hear, hear.) He
admitted that the hoe. member for Montrose went on •
much better principle. lie would not touch those law
officers who had salaries for life, as the judges, but
with regsrd to ail future appointments, he would reduce
these salaries as well as others. If the salaries of the judges
and the lord chancellor—though this would not apply to the
lord chancellor, who was an officer during pleasure—if the
salaries of the judges were to be reduced, that was the prin
stele on which the reduction should take place—not on that
of the hon gentleman the member for Oxford (Mr. Henley),
who would exclude this clam of public. officers altogether.
If the clerk with a salary of 801. a year was to be reduced,
there was surely no *dace in exempting the judge with
6,0001. a year. (Hear, hear.) There was another question.
if they determined to set the salaries according to the
duties performed, the labour undergone, and the responsi-
bility required, they might come to the oondution that it
was necessary to reduce the salaries of the civil officers—
(Ley might say they WIMP too highly remunerated, end only
a certain sum should be paid to them in future ; but
it would not bas right to reduce the pay of the
army and the navy. He could understand that it might be
just to adopt such a principle ; but if, on the other hand,
they took the ruling price of provisions, and said all public
pay and all public ealarii s shall be reduced in proportion to
the reduction in the necessaries of life—if they went into the
oat of clothes, of a table, a chair, and the price of food—
taking that as the principle of reduction, there would be no
justice in reducing the salaries of those employ ed in the civil
service of the state, without they reehiced the pay of the
military °fame and the pay of the army and navy generally
at the same time. (Hear.) If this principle, therefore, was
to be carried into effect, those who were for reducing the
pay of the soldier and the sailor, and of the military and
aural officers by 10 per cent., would have a case which it
would be impossible for those who brought forward this pro-
position to answer. (Hear, hear.) But it was a very dif-
terent question—their taking 10 per coat. from every soldier
and sailor—and it was a serious question for the house to
consider whether they could adopt it. (Cheers). It ap•
peered to him that the proper mode of reduction—the true
path of economy—was to sweet:tin what were the services in
which the pay was too large, or the salaries too high, and to
make the reductions necessary to bring them down
to that which would be a fair remuneration for the
duties to bs perfumed ; but to make a reduc-
tion of 13 per cent—three per cent. for income-
tax, and ten per cent, under the vote now proposed,
'—on every salary was a principle in which it applaud to
him there was no justice, and one which, if carried, would
involve them in other questions which might be exceedingly
difficult, and perhaps leave them in inextricable confusion.
(Hear, bear.) He hoped, therefore, that the house would
sot 'cogent to adopt the plan now proposed.
Mr. WODEHOUSE contended that the prospects of the
enemy had been 'utterly changed by the adoption of the
policy of 1848. He should give his support to the motion.
Mr. SPOONER believed the currency question had
very much to do with our present state of distress; and
at the pro; Sr time he would be prepared to discuss it. But
at present they must bear in mind that the motion had no
reference to the currency. They. had established the prin-
ciple of low prices. They had said to the producer—" You
must be content with low prices for your produce." They
had said to the labourer—" You must not grumble with
your low wages." They had carried out that saying to every
glees in life except themselves; and he, for one, protested
against such an exemption and called upon the house to do
an act of justice by adopting the isogon. (Hear.)

Mr. AGLIONBY, amid renewed cries of "divide,' said
that this was one of those motions upon which the votes of
hon. membere were very likely to be aisundentood unless
soma explanatiene were offered. He disagreed with one of
the sheet, pelky senassees of the hon. member for Binning-
him (Mr. Iffinnt2), in whisk it wee stated that the whole
country was hacking to this motion. He (Mr. Aglionby)
did net believe that the country cared one far-
thing • about L. (" Oh, oh," from the protectionism.)
He denied that wages were reduced in the agrimlnual coun-
ties. C. 06, eh I * frees the protectionists.) Believing
that the motion would lead to no good, and that
it wee calculated to mislead, he (Mr. Aglionby),
though he might subject himself to some censure,
should vote against it, and one of his reasons for
olaimire it was, that he did not like motions of the sort
coming from those whom he did not trust. (Laughter and
cheers.)
Mr. GOULBERN said that, although the motion had
been very tally discussed, yet he wished to express his de-
cided opinion that the measure itself, as proposed, wee
founded upon ininetice, and that as ouch he could not support
it. An appeal had been made to the higher officers of state,
who held their offices not cmlydering pleasure, but for a very
limited period generally. Now. it was a matter of 'tabor&
nate consideration to him, whether they reduced thous
salaries or not. But he objected to the cutting down of the,
salaries of the subordinate classes. It was for thee*, among
other grounds, that he thought this class of men were not
to be selected as a class far the peculiar infliction of an iej ue-
tics by parliament. And no man could deny that the mown,
if carried, would be an injustice by parliament. •He should
oppose the motion for the reasons already stated, and also
because he had'the utmost confidenee in the fidelity of the
officen 'employed in the anent governmental departments.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN said that on a former occasion, when the
hea. gentleman (Yr. Henley) brought forward a motion
limner to the present, in which he proposed to apply a re-
daction to one office of the government, he voted with him
upon the distioet explanation end understanding that he did
not intend by that vote to seduce the wages of the humbler
servants or clerks. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden)
' now thought it. more imPortint than even then to
explain the way in which- he intended to vote, be-
cause the hon. gentlemen bad gene further than he
did before, for he had professed to carry out those reductions
even to so low a clam of pnbbe servants as the humble post-
Men. He thought the hen. gtntl,men would be disposed,
upon reflection, to depart from that principle. He was as-
enteing that the agricultural Movers were getting 10,. a
week in Oxfordshire, and the postman 12s. a week in Lan-
des. He wished toles the wagai d mermaltural labourers
raised. • (Roar, hese.) He *kind to ~re them raised to
12s. ; bat, awler nor eitenalstaor se: other as a prints •
emPletet, tire a camber of that by oc, au-tlair fAtho

weal, he would not take part in any attempt to reduce
the wages of any man who was receiving 12s. a week.
(Cheers ) He applied the same principle to porters and
messengers. He could not be a party to reduce nose sma.l
salsries by any means; and the boo. gentleman had done an
injury to his entice by dwelling upon that part of the qui s•
tion, for had he pointed attentem to the higher sal • , the
financial reirraen probably would have agreed with him
awl he would have bad much greater success with his
motion. But the bon. gentleman, when he had more ex-
perience as a financial reformer—(" hear" and a laugh)—
would understand better than he did at pre-
sent Vow to frame hie motion. (Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Cobden) was of opinion that the higher offices of this
country were excessively p iid, and that 5,0001. a year for
say cabinet member of the treasury bench was mere Una
sufficient. (Cheers.) He would, as he had stated on a kir-
user occasion, go further than 10 per cent., so far as the tram
sury bench was concerned. (Hear) When the general,
range of profits aad prices were so much like in this country
to what they were in others, why should we pay our official
men double the Faluia of other official man in other
countries ? Take the United States. (" Oh !oh !" from
the protectioni.ta) But the United Sates was a
great empire, second to ourselves in maritime importance,
and therefore he was not speaking of a country insignificant
in extent er influence. (Hear, hear.) The four principal
secretaries of state maned 1,2601. each annually in the
Nuked States. They corresponded with our secretaries of
state in this country. They had men like Webster, and
Clay, aad others, who filled those °filen; and there were
none on the Treasury benches of that house who would
think that he deteriorated from their merits by comparing
them with the men of America. (Hear, hear.) He
would take our diplomatic service. Our ambassador
at Paris got 10,000/. a year. Our ambassador at Austria got
9,9001. a year. Our minister at Spain got 6,5001 a year.
Well, the United States did not pay their -highest diplomatic
functienaries more than 2,5001. a year. (" Hear," and
et;ieen.) Now, bad we one ambassador or minister abroad
who would consider it derogatory to his dignity to be com-
pared with Mr. Bancroft, the American minister to this
country ? Had we a superior man to Mr. B.ncroft ? lied
we a man who, apart from his profession, stood higher as a
readier man ? (" Hear, hear," and cheers.) Why,
then, should we continue to pay our ambassador
at Paris 10,0001. a year, when the Americans
paid their minister here 2,0001. only, and only 2,0001. to
their minister at Paris? (Loud cheers.) Now, he did not
Forme to reduce our salaries for official men to the scale in
America. If they took 10 per cent. off those salaries they
would still leave them twice as high as the Americans paid ;
and if he was answered that this was a monar:hy and
America was a republic, all he could say was, that he wanted
to see functionaries hers do something for their loyalty.
(Hear.) New, this was a class of salaries that he thought might
be reduced. There were others also that he thought might be
reduced, but into which he would not enter at that late hour.
He thought there were many of our public servants who
might be dispensed with altogether, and that the hon. mover
had made a great error in losing sight of the great number of
supernumeraries that we have. (Hear, hear.) The noble
lord (J. Russell) had stated that former prime ministers and
other officers of state 11.1 d sinecure offiese, and that they had
given offices to their sons. Well, but he (Mr. Cobden) did
not think that our ministers et the present day lost sight of
their relations altogether—(. Hear, hear," and laughter)—
and he most say that the great amount of patronage at the
disposal dour ministers ought to be considered some C3lll-
- for the lase of their office. And there was another
poir.t. We paid retiring pensions in this ceuntry. (Rear.)
In America they had no retiring pensions. (Hear, hear.)
Now, whilst he proposed to vote for the motion, he hoped he
would not be thought one of those who would make
a sweeping reduction of 10 per cent. on all salaries.
He believed that the hon. mover did not know
what he proposed to do. ("Hear,' and a laugh.)
We had 20,000 persons now getting under 1001. a year. Did
he propose 10 per cent. reduction on them ? He would have
a general strike among them if he did. He (Mr. Cobden)
was fax from believing that there would not be en advance
of wages. (Cheer.) So far from agreeing with hoe. gen-
tlemen opposite that the alteration in our commer-
cial system bad tended to reduce the demand for la-
bone, he prophesied that we were going to have
a better demand for labour. (Loud cheers.) Under
those circumstances they ces!ild not effect
,this general

reduction ef 10 per °eat.; and, therefore, while tee agreed
in wishing to see a general reduction in the higher class of
salaries, while he repudiated what was said about the re-
duction of the humble postman, he would vote for the motion
with this understandine, that the question to be put to the
house would be this—" that the words promoted w be lett
out stand part of the question." If this was negatived, then
the hon. gentleman's motion would be put as a substantive
motion, and he (Mr. Cobden) would propose to add the fol-
lowing words as an amendment "That aat lest committee
be appointed to inquire into the number ef servants em-
ployed, and the amount of salary paid to them, with a view
to the reduction of penalty FO employed, and such a redue-
Vol of salary as was consistent with the public service."
lie would subject each department to a specific ir quiry, and
he would have an honest committee appointed, not by the
government, to carry out the object in view, which was that
of a rigid supervision. (Cheers.)
Mr. PACHIC promised to support the motion, and in
doing to, declared that the wages in his part of the country
had been considerably reduced.
L,rd J. RUSSELL explained. He bad no objection for
an inquiry being instituted into any office with the view of
seeing whetht r any malaria wore excessive. An inquiry had
taken place into the Home-office some years ago, and it re-
united in a reduction being effected of 3,0001. a year. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT felt some difficulty with regard to the
motion of the hon. member for Oxfordshire. if he voted for
it, it would be with the view of expressing an opinirn that
public officers were unneceussrily highly paid. But he
thought the motion proposed by the hon. member for the
West Riding afforded a far better course for the house to
pursue. Au indiscriminating lessening of salaries could not
be justified unless there was an investigation into
every ease ;—(bear, hear)—and that investigation would
be melees into a certain class of salaries
from 12e. to 30s. a week unless it were intended to apply the
principle to them also, and to that he objected. The ten-
dency throughout the country, at prearnt, was to rice not
diminish wages. He understood that the question before
them was that all the words after the word " that " be left
out, in order to add the motion of the hon. member for Ox-
fordshire. If the question, that the speaker leave the
chair be negatived, and the motion affirmed, then he be-
lieved his hon. friend, the member for the West Riding
could propose his amendment in lieu of that motion. If
that be true, then all those members who wished for inquiry
should vote first with the hen. member for Oxfordshire, and
thed, if the holm resolved that the Speaker should not leave
the chair, It would be competent for them to vote for the
proposition of the hon. member for the West Riding.

Mr. T. EGERTON said he had Toted for the abolition of

the corn-laws, and weed 1 vote for the motion of the hon.
member for Olfordshire on the principle he bad laid down
namely, that all things having been cheap( ned by free trade,
it was but fair that all persons in public departments should
suffer a proportionate reduction in their income. (Hear )

Sir W. JOLLIFFE Owned that the hon. members for
Manchester end the West Riding made the same speeches in
1846 they were making now. They then promised the
mschanin and labourers of the country that high wages and
low prices were coming.
Mr. HENLEY said he had been accused of not making
two motions instead of one, but he would do nothing that
was not honest and straightforward. If hon. members
would look to the motion they would not find • word of
wages in it. It applied to salaries only.
The hours then divided on the question, that the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the question, or in the
plainer terms, " That the Speaker do now leave the chair,"
upon which the numoen were—
Ayes
Note

The molten of the hon. member for Oxfordshire was con-
sequently lost, and the house went into committee.
361,8951. being proposed for the pay and allowsnoes of the
ordnance engineen' corps,
Mr. NUMB said he expected as the report of the commit-
tee was before the house, that the government would state
what they stunt to do.

CoL AN SON said it was from no disrespect to the hon.
member or the house he had abstained from rising, but be-
cause the statements or.de by the hon. member en a former
occasion were so contrary to the fact that be thought it
would have been better to explain as they proceeded
with the several votes. As for the report of the committee,
although a very able report, and although comprehending
a good deal of the evidence, he thought it could be of very
little use to the house until they had the evidence as well.
He found in the report, however, a summary of the recom-
mendations of eh • ommeittaerwhich recommendations be
bad no hesitation in informing the house the government
would take into their serious consideration during the te-
ens, in order to determine what course they would adopt in
consequence. But he did not think it would be right for
any one belonging to the government or the ordnance to
pledge themselves to any particular course without the most
deliberate consideration. tinder vote 3, for the ordnat cs office,
they abstained from proposing any *Amur for its future
constitution, because they believed that any improvement
in its practical working could only be effected by the
executive government. They, however, recommended
the remand of the warrant of 1826, and , he saw no
objection to that alteration. Under vote 4,
for ordnance and barrack establishments, they recommended
the number of artifieers to be fixed according to the wants
of the service in time of peace. It was always very difficult
to fix the establishment in that respect.. In 1846 there was
no necessity for any peat work, but since then great alte-
rations had been undertaken in our armaments and navy in
the di seription of our guns and carriages ; and, therefore,
the establishment fixed for one year might be quite intuffi-
emit for the next. But he concurred with the committee,
that no increase should take place without the sanction of the
treuury. The several establishments were now stated ander
distinct heads, as well with regard to wages, as stores and other
matters. No estimates could be prepared in a more simple
form, a form which bad been adopted in 1846-1846, at the
recommendation of some very experienced persons employed
by the treasury in the preparation of the estimates. The re.
enueendation of the committee as to written authorities
being given by the treasury was a very judicious one; hut
hitherto the Master of the Ordnance -being a member of
the cabinet, this had net been found necessary.

Mr. HUME said he bad inquired what was the number
of 'artillery employed. Re believed it was exactly double
what it was a few years ego ; this was a cireutastaace Which
needed explanation. Up to 1835, a gradual reduction had
Wm amide, in eonaequeuce of the strict surveillance exer-
cised by the house; the total amount for the ordnance in
that year was 1,424,0004 while for 1848, it was 2,891,0001.,
or exactly double. • Why was this, in a lime
of profound pace ? Ili UM, a committee • thosilit

the artillery ea roe on too large a scale, and
recommended a reduction; notwithstanding that, the vote
for that tingle item was now nearly double what it was then.
In 1832 the number of the ar, filer, was 8,369; now it was
14,123 ; and th's after a recotnmeodetion of reduction.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the complaint had been on
Thursday evening Out they a ,uld not proceed witht,ut the
report of this committee ; and now the hoe. gentleman bad
made a s wech not at all referring to that report, and which
he could have made as well on Thursday evening. (Hertz,
hear.) As to the am aunt of the force, he M.el no additional
explanation to give. It was a few lea than in 1848, erel in
1548 he had stated at the commencement of the session the
reason why the arti lery had been augmented In suecenive
years. Tae gt n rid reason was, that while the infantry and
soldiers of he line might in no very ling time be brought
into • state of discipline fit to act, the artillery required a
much longer time, and, therefore, it was desirable that •
considerable number of them should be enrclled in each
year. (near.) With respect to the change made last ye ar,
the hon. gentlemen said it bed been done by the master-
general of the eminence, without lis (Lord J. Russell's)
knowledge. The fact was, however, that ate, the order had
been made and carried into effect at the Ordnance
the Master-General of the Ordnance had come to him, and
represented that there was a great want of promotion in the
higher rank* of the service ; and it was his °plena., and the
opinion of tbase acting with him, that the efficiency of the
artillery would be better promoted by having the same num-
ber of men at were proposed to be added to two battalions
with superior officers. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman had not
alluded to the report; but it did happen that the report
spoke in very rrong terms against say considerable redo.-
non in the number of the artillery. It stated, "all the
evidence given to your committee shown the value of an effi-
cient artillery, officered by scientific men. The experience
of modern warfare tends to strengthen this opinion ; and your
committee desire diriectly to state, while they &Wein front
entering upon the consideration of the force to be main-
Weed, that they regard the corps of artillery as the most
important arm of the service, and, therefore, recommend that
the proportion of the artillery to the rat of the army should
not be reduced." (Rear, hear.) Such was the decided
opinion of the government; and he was glad to find it cor-
roborated by the opinion of the committee. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. HUME raid he bad referred to the report, and read
from it. The noble lord must have been asleep, or he would
have heard it. (Laughter.) While agreeing with the com-
mittee that the artillery ought to be efficient, ho contended
that their number should be proportioned to that of the in-
fantry and the peace establishment generally. (Rear,
hear). Considering the strong demand out of doors
far retluct,on, and the enormous pressure of taxa-
tion, the house must make some retrenchment. The
country had now to bear ail the expense of war ; with re-
duced profits in every department of trade, the expenditure
of the government was not only the same, but actually
doubled in the last few years. lie would not divide the
committee at that late hour, but would content himulf with
entering his protest against the extravagance of the go-
vernment.

Captain BOLDERO referred to that part of the recta
which stated what proportion of guns there ought to be in a
military force, and reminded the committee that during the
late Punjaub war Lsrd Gough had expressed Me IMPS of the
superiority which the enemy derived from th.ir having one
gun to every 300 men, whereas the British army had only
one grin to every 700 mem
Toe vote was then agreed to.
The neat vote was for 161,45 a, to complete the tum te-
, quired for the commissariat supply.
Mr. HUME said that the advantage be derived from the
paper his hand was to be al le to show that this depart-
ment bad exactly doubled Mace 1835 in its expense.
-

Colonel ANSON ssid that the increase in the smount of
this vote since the year 1835 arose from the fact that there
was no atore•rooms then in the Tower, and consequently
no stares of clo:hing were prepared ; and it must be recoi-
ls c.ed also that the increase in the number of men,
reckoned only at 11. a bead, would account for a consider-
able portion of the increase.
The vote was then egret d to.
The neat vote was for 45,8811., t 3 defray the t amiss of
the Ordnaoce•ofttee.

Mr. COBDEN asked if it was right to go on after mid-
night votit.g such large sums. He protested against going
on with the estimates at that late hour.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that be bad understood there was
not to be any objection to going on with the vote@ after the
delay en Thursday last. If that understanding was broken,
it would cession great inconvenience and delay.
Mr. COBDEN said that the understanding on Thursday
was that the estimates were to be discussel that evening;
but the whole avanitig, up to 11 o'clock, had been taken up
by the discussion on the motion of the hon. member for
Oxfordshire, which the country would probaldy thir,k far
more important than the noble lord did. He did think the
house ought not to be called on to vote such large sums alter
12 o'clock.

Mr. lIUME said that if anything could show the impro-
priety of proceeding at that late hour, it was the speech just
made which opened up the whole question of the construc-
tion of the Board of Ordnance, for if that hoard wee not re-
modelled during the present year, it would not be remodelled
at all. Ile recommended, therefore, the noble lord not to
persist in forting the vote on the house at that late hour.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if he did postpone the vote
until Thursday, he csuld pay no more than he was then pre-
pared to say. namely, that he would take all the recommen-
datior s and the evidence of the ',vita into consideration
with a view to effect modifications and reduce the expense of
the ordnance. More than that he could not say, even if he
were to delay the vote for a week. He therefor, hoptd the
committee would he allowed to proceed.

Mr. W. MILES said that the Muter-G. nerd of the Ord-
ranee had not been called before the comtni:tee b state his
opinion with respect to the reconstruction of the board of
orgnancr ; nothing, therefore, could be done at present in
this respect.

Mr. F. MAULE said that it had been agreed in the com-
mittee not to proceed in the inquiry u to the ordnance until
the whole subject et' the army had been finitherl.

Sir W. MOLESWORTII intimated his intention to op-
pose the 7th vote, in order to stop the works at 132rmuda and
the lonian hinds.

Mr. HORSHAM hoped that the government would not
force the present vote that night on the committer, is the es.
Cmat, s could not he finished during the present evening.

Lord J. RUSSELL sail, that with re pest to the works at
Bermuda and the lonian Islands, he saw no reason why the
bon baronet should not make his s•atement that evening, as
he did not apprehend he differed much from the hon. baronet
in his views on the subject.
Mr. G. DOD complained that nothing had Leen done for
ihe medical department of the ordnance, although GPO mere
had been added to their farmer patients.

Mr. HORSMAN, on the question being put that the
vote be agreed to, nt,ved that the chairman do report pro-
grew.
The motion, however. was withdrawn.
Oa the vote of 165,373/. for establishments in the colonies,
Mr. COBDEN observed that the hon. member for Mont-
rose had gone awry ; he did not thick that a proper way of
treating the matter, and instead of going away, he should
oppose any furthtr proceeding. Common sense, decency,
lend justice, rtquired that they should not vote money at
the hour of the mornino. Hs moved that the chairman re-
port progrres.
The committee divided—For the motion l4
Against it lO7-03
. .

The vote having bern again put,
Mr. KERSHAW moved that the Chairman report
progrele.
Lord J. RUSSELL Paid that if hon. members meant to
take the course et detaining the house on th, se motion',
small u was the minarty, he thought it better ro agree to
postpone the votes. He should put them for Wednes lay,
end he hoped that hon. gentlemen who had bile fur Wed.
nudity would allow the supply to come on, tad he would
move another day for those bills. He now agreed that the
chairman should report progress.
The house resumed, end theft/11MAX Tapered progress.
ADVANCE OF MONEY (ATHLONE TO GALWAY
RAILWAY) BILL.

On the motion that this bill be committed,
Mr. FRENCH asked fur its postponement, on the ground
of the lut•ncu of the hour, and that, as the bill stood, it
was opposed by a lugs perion of the people of Galway.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it would
be really impassible to pass Wile for the heath: of Ireland if
these postponements were premed.

Col.
BLAKE elm urged a postponement.
Mr. O'FLAIIERTY said that there was no objection on
the part of the people of Galway to the bill.
The house then went into committee on clause 1.
Mr. FRENCH said that the hon. member opposite was
not correctly informed, for he was entrusted with 'petition
from certain proprietor, of Galway to oppose it.
On clause 6 being proposed,

Mt. FRENCH proposed. a provi.o that any money lent
for the construction of the midway should be rt paid before
the sbartbolders dividrd any profit..

The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the proviso, cn the grcur.d that it was contrary to the agree-
ment entered into between the Treasury and the ehrecters,
through whose property the railway was to WS.
Sir I'. BURKE hoped that his hen. friend would not
divide the house. He believed the ratepayers of 0 dway
were in favour of the bill.
After aehort convereation the proviso wee negotived with-
out a division, and the clause agreed to,
The remaining clauses were also agreed to.

The CHANCELLOR°, the EXCHEQUER brought op
a clause, pr)viling that if the whole line from .81uIliagar to
°away were tot finished by 1861, government would be
empower,' to take pee onion of the whole line.
The bill was then ordered to be reported, end the house
resumed. • _

.-RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND, No. 2) BILL.
This bill pined through committee, and was ordered to be
reported.
JOINT STOCK COMPANIES ACT (1840
AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill ice read a di rd time and pass,d.
STAMP, &c., ALLOWANCE

This billwas nati a stionel time: Cf rarnittee to this day.
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE, &a., BILL.

This bill ward through committee, and wile warred to be
eportei.
EXCISE BENEVOLENT FUND iIIOCIgTY BILL.
This bill war rind a third thus and parsed.
REGIN ENTAL BENEFIT. SOLI*. TAP,.

"Whig big was mai a weond time, and ocicr.d to be com -
ague d. this day.

;•"

:4; c% 4)
-t• ! A
•.1 • ---- .