The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-14 00:00:00

THE En

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Em
kle UMW
iliseresteta for'
en; as it was, as the srepthpsolikstbs that ketraitalr
tip • specific paved, la WM
oat shoe sate el stelatekiep relights eat zoo&
lhat whisk saw eakeed. BM dr hes. sad hissed sass-sr
kir Orbell prepand as eissadasst el the idoliest bar
Wide Millabliks so to W
C het
ilmasellsisded. (Hoar, boar.) Om oblation to it MO
that it tread he • madam SI Oink 1t stidht be km
that weal/ ass bums dissesesto kr the mph ,p 1
ovsmq the plyaest et the rata, but whim the rade was •
tag In she had se pens. would puma* him that the pre.
el seek had would sot avail tiesmehh of this
isaaisast te get rid et the rate to whim It they win sew
liable. (Hear.) The hes. ad iseraed gesskrasa sold that
she dkesaluts hal se teat riskt to saphda bosom
sack the had sirbjest to the sae, but U his prepsoliks
was willed • great arheatige would be gives to
Ike dinessters. He maid traprza.the use et a
skereboses ad disaster *Asp liwilool.
whisk bat kr the rats wow* b. want The lead was
sow many liable, but let the prepwitilla et the Ms. gss.
them be serried oat sad it aided to tho yoke er she
laid of tk• diessater. (Hew, less) Whig be maid pre-
pen would be the eakembisussat ofeeekeiamisal Ises.belds,
whisk would phi • iksid irssdistely available kr tke re-
pair aid +miasma* d relipiout edition, and would relieve
all trim esatribstise is the support of any but their wit
elheshes.

ilk G. OUT biped Ms beam would not be led into a
dissmain ea the very idle end intricate question introduced
=pea. Mend, sentsly, whether more mold be amide of
property eeniseently with a due regard for the rights
of lemma. It would be time enough to 'molder whetkes the
charge Ise the emir glebe alias of the church should be
borne by • hod tette meted by the better anaemia of
shank prepay when • Medea promnition was made on
that maigest. Now he email net sonsent to the ab.
strait remiales beige the bow" that church-rates sight
to beabolished. Seed mitumisentend that ashen. friend aid
in view amp distinct mode et esigilieg the deficiency which,
. would be nes created ; end le mad even say that mei
piss anent* mama Si the hones had been minted to by
these who Angel that they bad emesissoises simplest@ the
Firmest greenish raw. As rewind the emenlement.heigatte
smaserred with Ms bes. and banseil Mead the mamba for Os-
tend, that ft me meet desirable Si pet an lei le the made-
/as some whbh elMa marred ie pspialens=l...ibut
looking at the °places expressed by men et
la that house, and at the Mem el every alma bee-e-iii-
made to vide remedy for tit existing evils, he was not
surprised that his hem. end issued friend the mem-
ber for Oxford, with ell Ni talent and inanity,
had not been able to bring derward a better pia than
that proposed by the hon. amber for Finsbury, eight or
pine years ago, when that hon. amber introduced • bill to
exempt dimmers from the payment of dm* rates. The
proposal made at the period to which be referred MY, that
a line of demarcation should be drawn between churchmen
and &sentare, that churchmen should be still liable to the
payment of church fates, and that dissenters, bang ex-
empted from such liability, should be deprived of the power
of taking pert in vestry aiming. at which they were im-
posed. He thought that plan would have been attended
with evil emequenees. He did not say that percent would
profess themselves dissenters in order to exonerate them-
selves from liability ; but, ill that pert of the country for ex-
ample, with which he (81r G. Grey) was beat sequaimed—the
north if Begland—Presbyterians andmemben of the Church of
Begiend were intanniegh d, occupying adjoining farms, arid
living in perfect amity, and the former in may cases at-
toadied the Established Church ; and he thralls it desirable
that sea ma* skald be aluminised, er then that
poshambes amid he aimed to shaft' Christian fellow-
ship with the members tithe Chun et Reiland, through
the abater to be gained by the assertion of their eon-
scientism, wenvieticies. Bend a, though the tenant might
have the benefit ofmeseeptien fur • time, yet, when the leans
fell in, the hadierd weefl be the gainer. Withoat going
into the saguaros, be repotted that his hon. and learned
Mend had est been able to sagest any other mode of wear.
He adaftbril as dillisulties of the ease, bat he coneorred in the
themvatime that the imam should be brought forward in
the shop of a mom Mime to brag In a bin, sad at by
mesas of a resolution a resolution being, whatever coarse
might ultimately be Naiad, • mist eliectioaable made of
(Hear, bar.) He weld deb further reiterate
the whin heedb entrained en fernier occasions, and
which
had ben se kommatly ranted is that house, that it
was meat deeirable t@ avoids upseitien of the evils which
bed so frequently &deem (Var.) Them evils were, he
thought, el leas falsest esserresse new thee they were
formerly, public opinion having rather mitered ea the sub-
ject ; at the sam time, if any means could be devised for
tubing funds for the repair of the fabrics et the church
which would not leave them dependent on voluntary mart.
bathes be should be meet hippy to give his amittance in the
application of such a remedy. But certainly, looking at all
tla proposals which had been nude, and consideeng the
manner in which they had been received, be had no very
siwegane hope of being able to devise a remedy on behalf of
the governmeet. (Hear, hear.) . .

CoL THOMPSON said he bad received instructions,
which be felt bound to obey and be should support the mo-
tion of the hoe. member for Tavistock.
Mr. HUME said that when it was formerly proposed that
the burden of church rates should be transferred to the con-
solidated fund, he stresply objected to that proposeL At
the same time, he had always thought it desirable that um,
remedy should be adopted. He admitted that the laud was
charged with the paymeat of church rates ; but, considering
the Week which had been produced in a great many pa-
rishes, he thought sound policy required that such unplea-
sant proceedings should be stopped. He should support the
amendment to the belief that it presented the beat moans of
getting out of the diMeulty.
Lord D. C. STUART said his views on this question ac-
corded in a great degree with those expressed by the boo.
and learned member far Oxford. Though extremely anxious
that &meatus should be relieved from the burden of church
rs*se, he thoneht parliament would hardly be justified in
abolishing this pranks for the maintenance of the t briar
of the church without providing any substitute whatever.
(Hear, hear.) He would recommend the honourable and
learned member for Oxford to withdraw his amendment,
and after that had been done, he would feel great pleasure
is voting for a resolution declaring that church rates should
be abolished, and some substitute for them provided.
Mr. C. W. MARTIN cited the ems of Newport, where
the members of the established church, rather than see the
church of their perish fall about their ean, bad raised a vo-
luntary subscription for its restoration. Unless this principle
were carried out elsewhere same substitute fez church rates
must be found.
Sir W. CLAY protested against the continuance of a t..x
wbieh created an amount of hostility to the church which
more than manterbalancsd the importance of the amount of
the rates raised.

Mr. GOULBURN said it would be difficult for the hon.
gentleman to show that the wealth of the church, however it
might be divided, was more than sufficient to supply the
general need of religious instruction. Yet it was proposed
to divert the means of the church from the purposes to
which they had been destined, in order to relieve a certain
class of landed proprietors from en obligation to which,
as the hon. member for Montrose admitted, the
land had been . subjeeted from the earliest times.
Why was the land to be relieved from that
charge say more than frets other local burdens ? He
was not, Indeed. indisposed to consider whether any means
Gould be devised of plating church-rates on a footing which
would be acceptable to all classes of the community; but,
while he had no desire to press hardly on particular classes,
he thought it would be stoat unwise for the house to sanction
either of the resolutions which bad been proposed. An hon.
member hat proposed a resolution calling upon the house to
affirm distinctly that they would abolish church rates. It
was true that hon. members who had followed him bad
stated that they meant that a substitute should be provided ;
but it the resolution itself were pissed on the journals of the
house, it would be appealed to as the letter W the bond—
(hear. bawl—cod when the question of a substitute came to
be mouldered, whatever might be the difficulty of finding
ow, they would be told that the doom of
Muesli rates bad been sealed. (Hear hear.) The hon.
and leaned member for Oxford proposed to exempt dissen-
ters only from the burden. being open to the ob-
jection urged by, the right hon. gentleman opposite, that
proposal required by the admission of the hon. and learned
stembw himself, 'to be woompaaied by guards and precau-
tions which wall net be provided in a simple resolution.
(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to worms any opinion on
such a maim without first seebg the necessary
Lookieti at what had paned that evening, he
thought the MUNI had ample remiss for rejecting both the
abase reasintina before it. Before any rep were taken
tolllll.4llabelishlog church rates, they nest me how justice
was to be dew to the public, as wiliest those who, haying
Murat rata, demanded that that
"WI" .e2rtke to
ez tapted. He should vote against any
rrslsßria similar to those before the house, until some
smidasfam miniante for church rates had lesentpropmed.
Mr. BRIGHT said it could not have been otherwise
San gratifying both to those hon. ambers who
wwe dissenters sod to those who were sincere mem
ben et the Werth of England to observe the
essemote in whisk the quietism had been discussed.
It was deskalde that this question should be settled
dearly and distinctly, and this with the least possible delay.
There had been venous projects suggested to the house on
hewer esessisos nod la the worse of the prima debate;
mays these Ow esseedies of the boo. member for the city
et Oallard was wild* entitled to greatiattention, though,
tom what he kayo of the condition of the population
in the parishes et the north of England, and he believed
the ems user mai much the same elsewhere, be doubted
gendaseldw Whether any such plan as that of the
yes podemen't Gadd be worked in such a manner as
even to midgets the evils arising out of the present state of
this tweetko. (Hear, hear.) There were many diffieul-
tiss easterradiag the a:atter ; and these difficulties would ow-
tandy not be bowed by the endeavour to separate, in the
wooer suggested, the population of lame parishes
Mere
dissenters and ahtpeople. (Hear, hear.
Moe than thie, there was involved in his hon.
friend's proposition a principle which he would not admit;
he would never consent that dissenter+, because they were
disseatsre, were in soy degree to be shut out from any par-
ti.ipaden which they might at some future time have in
the weesety of the ehutch, or its management (Hear )
It might bemme hereafter a question what was to be dons
with the fonds which the state now entreated to what was
e.lled the natioaal church, and he could not comsat that
dissenters, as such, should be dispossessed of their
„eat interest in whatever course shold then be
ad pied. (Hear, hear.) The difficultke of the subject had
been long since understood and acknowledged, and hat
more especially been the subject of demean in that hosts