The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-03 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMM
The Sraolos took tko chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
_ _

a, MAY 2.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
THE BUDOET.-117 Mr. SULLIVAN, from the Mayor
and citizens of Kilkenny; Mr. ALEXANDER, from in-
habitants of the borough of Carlow; Mr. O'FLARERTV,
meet numerously signed, from the Yndownits and graphi-
te's of the cosrts of the town of Galway ; against the intss-
*ice of the income tax in Irelaml. Mr. L. GOWER, from
. .

;
Ireland. Mr, L GOA a. ,
the working moo of Bunion, ia Staffordshire, in favour of
the budget. Mr. MOFFATT, from Bradford, Yorkshire,
praying for the immediate passing the resolutions for yrluo-
tiow of Customs' duties. Mr. TUFNELL. from tobacco
dealers of Storehouse and Devonport ; Lord ANNESLEY,
from the traders and shopkeepers of Great Grimsby; Kr.
C. FOIIZTER., from Walsall ; against the increase of the
license payment on tobacco and other eseisablo
Sir B. HALL, from Rutlandshire, in favour of the Anemia
measure.
OPINING OP TEN CRYSTAL PALACE ON SUNDATS.—By
Mr. DUNLOP, from inhabitants of the parish of All
Saints, Liverpool ; Mr. J. NEELD, from the inhibition
of Wootton Bassett, in egunty of Wilts; Mr. C. TURNER,
from the inhabitants of Liverpool, and of the district d
Windsor, Liverpool; from the minister!, churchwardens,
and members of St. John's Church, Liverpool; from -the
' congregation of the church, and inhabitants of the district
of St. Bride's, Liverpool; against.
Ihtivaasirr Ts/m.—By Mr. E. LOCKHART, from the
Conimissionen of Supply of the county of Fife ; Mr.
BAIRD, from a congregation in Scotland • against. Mr.
A. HASTIE, from the Session of the United Presbyterian
err egation, Eglington street, Glasgow; Sir J. ANDER-
SOH, from the Glenkens, Galloway; Mr. HUME, from
Montrose ; in favour of the bill.
MAYNOOTR GRANT.—By Col. BLAIR, from the emigre-
nation of the free church of Scotland, at Curnnock (Apr
shire), against.
OCCUPATION OF Roma ET TRE FRENCR.—By Mr. T.
BUNCOMBE, from inhabitants of Paisley, Glasgow, Shef-
' field, Manchester, Bradford (throe), Secular Society, Derby,
inhabitants of London (five), Macclesfield, Warwick,
Waltham Abbey, congregation of Woking Chapel, in-
habitants of Guildford, congregation of Perry-hill Chapel,
'Wepplesdon, Surrey, congregation of Horsell Chapel,
Burley ; against.
OCEAN PENNY POSTAOI.—By Mr. MOFFATT, from
Wiebech, in favour of.
PUBLIC-nousts (SCOTLAND) BILL.—By Sir E. BERING
(two petitions), and by Mr. LOCKE (one) ; Mr. DUN-
LOP, from the free presbytery of Ayr; in favour of this
bill.
Vrranste SOLDIERS.—By Mr. A. HASTIE, from 46
old soldiers, whose average age was 64, stating that they had
, gone through the Peninsular war, had been at the battle of
' Waterloo, and had received several wounds; and praying
that their cue might be taken into consideration. He gave
notice to move that the petition should be printed with the
votes.
ADVERTISEMENT Dury.—By Mr. FRENCH, from two
editors of newspapers in Ireland, praying for the abolition
of this duty; Sir J. SHELLEY, from a person in West-
minster, who described himself as a contractor for adver-

tisanenis in omnibuses, against the reduction of the duty
on advertisements in newspapers.
Lincoates.—By Mr. M. MILNES, from Pontefract,
against say reduction of the duty on the impost of this
root.
LAW or MARRIAOII.—By Mr. KERSHAW, from Chas-
ter, Stockport, and other places, in favour of a bill to le-
galise marriage with &deceased wife's sister ; Mr. BRIGHT,
from 3,000 inhabitants of Manchester, landing several dis-
uniting ministers, and upwards of 300 married women ; Mr.
TUFNEL, from several places in the county of Devon ; in
favour of the same object.
COMMITTEE ON INDIAN TERRITORIES.
A further report from this committee was laid on the
table, and ordered to be printed.
TOTNESB ELECTION.
Mr. LASCELLES brought up the report of this com-
mittee declaring that Mr. Mills had been duly elected for
the borough of Tone's.
RETURNS ORDERED.
On the motion of Mr. TOLLEMACHE, return of the
amount of postage money actually received by the Post-
office, for mails conveyed by steamers and other vessels
under contract with her Majesty's government; specifying
the particular lines of such contract steamers and vessels,
and the countries to and from which the mails are con-
veyed.
On the motion of Mr. HUME, lists of all articles on
which customs duties were payable in the year 1851 on
importation into the United Kingdom, showing, in columns,
, the name of the article ; the quantity imported, exported,
and retained for home consumption in 1851; the net
amount of ditty received ; the present rates of duty ; and
the proposed rates of duty. And, of all articles imported
duty free in 1851; and of inch articles, then subject to
duty, as it is proposed shall be admitted duty free under
the new tariff.
ISLE OF MAN.
Mr. EWART asked whether the measures proposed to
be adopted in reference to the fiscal champs its the Isle of
Man are yet prepared, and if so, when they would be laid
before the boast. Also, whether any snmenne had been
adopted to promote a more frequent communication by
mail with that island during winter.
Mr. WILSON was understood to say that the proposed
changes with regard to the import duties in the late of Man
were in a state of great forwardness. He was not yet pre-
pared to say what they were ; but the increase a duty
would be exceedingly small. The other matter, du to the
mall communication, was under the consideration of the
Post-office authorities.
PRISON DISCIPLINE.
Sir H. HALFORD asked, with reference to a petition
from the justices of Leicestershire, whether the government
intended to introduce any measure for adapting the law
regarding prisons to the system of separation of prisoners,
as applied to those under sentence of bard labour, and gene-
rally in order to carry out the recommendation of the
select committee of that house on prison discipline in 1850 ?
Viscount PALMERSTON said it appeared that the ma-
gistrates of Leicester had established a rule in the prison
that persons sentenced to tura labour should be employed
eight hours a day in turning a erans ; end that if they ob-
jected or refused to do so, they should be deprived of some
portion of their daily meals. It had appeared to the late
Hems Secretary that that regulation was not borne out by
law, and he behoved that opinion was well founded. If the
hon. baronet asked if it was the intention of the govern-
ment to bring in an act to legalise such a punishment, be
would state that such was not their intention. (Hear.)
BOLTON ELECTION.
Lord R. GROSVENOR reported, from the committee
in this case, that Mr. Barnes and Mr. Crook were duly
elected, and that the petition of George Greenhalgh was
frivolous and vexatious. (Cheers.)
PIRACY ON THE COAST OP BORNEO.
Mr. T. BARING asked whether any measures had been
adopted by the govethimmt to protect British commerce
against piratical proesediess en the coast of Benno.
Sir I. GRAHAM seta that representations had been
made to the government with respect to certain pro-
esedinip said te be pirating ea the coast of Borneo. In
eseompisse of these tions, orders had been ten
to the sanded esminw that if similar representations
should be mist& to him, he was to exercise his discretion in
taking preenetions for tie sepressioa of such proceedings.
At the same time, cadets bad been given that he should
take care in his lestreedeas that evidence of piney should
be obtained before has was used, such as would he sails-
factory before any boort of Admiralty. Further, that it
was not the policy of the government to establish any
colony, or seek for any acquisition of territory on the main
land of Borneo. (Hear, hear.)

SAVINGS BANKS.
Mr. WHALLEY asked whether it wee intended to afford
further protection for savings banks deposits, sad generally
to provide for the mote economical administration by go-
vernment of these institutions ?
Mr. WILSON said it wee the intention of the Chancellor
of
the Exchequer, in conformity with a premiss made in an
early part of the session, to introduce a bill on the subject.
HACKNEY CARRIAGES BILL.
Mr R. INGLIS asked whether Mr. Fitzroy would con-
`l refer this bill - sect committee t

at the came time with reference to no long a period of seven
year', I think that great difficulty would int
Thereforimy hon. friend will not interpret me as giving
any pledge on tits subject.
MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
In answer to a intion from Mr. SPOONIIit,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the miscellaneous estimate+
would be brought forward after the financial meuures had

been disaosed if.
THE DUTIES ON SUCCESSIONS.
Lord A. VANE asked whether the duty on successions
would be levied on property under settlement ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am not
aware of any distinction between property under settle-
ment and property under trust. Certainly, it is the main
object of the bill of the government to take away the ex-
emption which property obtains from legacy duty by that
means. (Hear, hear.) By the bill of the government pro
petty under settlement will hate no preference whatever as
such.
THE INCOME-TAX RESOLUTIONS.
The house then went into committee of ways and means,
Mr. Bouverie in the chair, and the adjourned debate was
resumed by
Sir W. CLAY, who expressed his belief that the feeling
of his csinstituents and the rest of the metropolis was deci-
dedly in approval of the measures of the government. He
thought the scheme wise and prudent, as well as bold and
comprehensive, and held out the prospect of laying a sound
foundation for our fiscal system. The scheme rested mainly
on the property and lucerne tax, and must be abandoned
if the resolutions before the committee were negatived.
The abolition of the income tax would create a deficiency
of 6,000,0001., and he had not heard any one state by what
means such a deficiency was to be supplied. The main
pound of contention was the extension of the income tax to
IrUad. He confessed it was not without embarrassment
be approached that question, not because he enter-
tained any doubt as to the wisdom or the justice of such a
measure; but his difficulty was, that he had to address
himself especially to the representatives of Ireland. While
he would not dictate to those hon. members, he must tell
them that it would be matter of regret, should it become a
prevalent opinion in England that there was an inclination,
ea
the part of Irish members, to resist on slight and instil/11-
' dent grounds, the extension of the income tax to their
own country. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the bon
member for Kerry, that nothing but the strongest ease
et necessity or of justice, could warrant them in seeking
*save their countrymen from a just share of the burdens
el general taxation—(bear, hear) ; and, as yet, he thought
no such case had been made out. The right bon. gentle-
man, the member for Portsmouth (Sir F. Baring), said,
that whereu they were making a large remission with re-
gard to England and Scotland, they were making no cor-
reeponding remission with regard to Ireland. He went on
to say, that in 1860 the relative state of the two countries
would be this, that whereas England would have been re•
lieved by the remission of taxation to the amount of
6,715,0001., Ireland would only have been relieved to the
extent of 245,0001. per annum, the charge for the consoli-
dated attitudes. minus 198,0001. for the increase of the
_ _

*tit duties, making the net relief of Ireland only 47,000/.
If the argument of the right bon. gentleman were fully car-
ried oat, it would render the remission of taxation impossi-
ble. There was neither a soap tax nor a house tax fa Ire.
land to be repealed ; the spirit duty, even with the proposed
increase, would not amount to half the duty in England; and
if the argument of the right hon. gentleman were
_good for
scything, it went to this extent, that there should be no
emnission in England because there oould not bt a corns
spading one in Ireland. Great stress was laid on tba fast
eat the Consolidated Annuities were created on meotat of
a calamity which was said to be imperial. It should not be
itipitass, however, that 10,000,0001. was voted by patlia-
sost for immediate relief, that there was a grant of
1,110,0001. for the construction of union workhouses, and
that the subscriptions from private benevolence amounted
to no leas than 2,000,0001. After this, could it be right
that England and Scotland, in addition to paying their
own share of the burden of taxation, should be called upon
for that of Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) He admitted that Ire-
land had past wrongs to complain of, he even admitted
that there were some still unredeemed—(heer, hear) ,--but
these wrongs were net financial towards Ireland, though
England herself had suffered in a pecuniary point
of view, by the misgovernment and oppression of
that country. It was said that Ireland ought not
to pay the income tax because she had two churches to
maintain. The nonconformists of this country were in a
similar position ; yet who ever heard of their urging It as a
reason why they should not contribute their fair share of
taxation. (Hear, hear.) The anticipated extinction of the
income tax in 1860 involved, he conceived, the most impor-
tant questions, as well social as civil. The reduction of
customs and excise duties between 1831 and 1851 amounted
to 22,662,0001., and it was not too much to say that it was
the working classes who had received the largest there of
benefit; and though he did not say that they should not pro-
coed in the course which they hadbeen pursuing, be thought
there were abundant grounds to justify the right
hon. gentleman in proposing to place it in the power of the
house to exercise a free voice on the whole 'abject in 1860.
(Hear, hear.) After the remission of the soap duty, and
the reduction of the tea duty to the extent of Is. per lb.
bo doubted whether it would be possible to show that any
isoulderable portion of the working man's wages went to
sopport the burdens of the state. (Hear, hear.) At least
is might be said—what could not have been said formerly—
that as small a proportion of his earnings was thus taken
as was required from those who had incomes of 160/. •
par and upwards. To this he must add that the prospect
at the labour market was such as it bad not
been for half a century, perhaps such as it had
sever been known to be before in this country.
(Hear, hear.) Looking at the facilities of commune=
Mon with rich and undeveloped countries of the earth, and
at the evident tendency to a rise in wages, he thought no
man could doubt that in the next few years the working
man would be enabled to protect himself and to secure ade-
taste remuneration. He rejoiced at this prospect, but it
certainly bore on the question whether the income tax
should not be reduced if not abolished as soon as practicable.
He bad abstained from going into the merits of the budget
sea whole; but it was his opinion that as a whole the
edema was useful and valuable, that it combiaed with
the relief of taxation the closing of more than one ques-
liaM of great financial difficulty—(hear, hear)—that
at =lord from the minds of large duns a well-fininded
hasp of injustice; and that it tended to lay a sureCand use-
-1k) basis for our future fiscal system. With these views,
it was his Intention to support it, and he thought it deserved
the support of the house and the country. (Cheers.)
Sir F. KELLY said, an hon. gentleman to whom they
might naturally have looked as a leader in that debate, had
chosen to become a follower of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer ; he referred to the hon. member for Montrose.
(Hear, hear.) Ministers had, with one or two exceptions,
observed a miraculous silence. The right hon. gentleman,
however, in his gigantic oration, pointed out most convinc-
ingly how the owners of land under the income tax were
made to pad no less than 9d. in the pound, whereas
by law and in justice it ought to be assessed only at 7d. ;
and when hon. members on that (the opposition) side bent
llerwatd, arreefis =rano, to hear from a sympathising
Obotellor of the Exchequer what remedy was to be ap-
plied to this great grievance, they were suet with the oon-
'Watery assurance that if the house would consent to the
budrt, ministers would heap on the owners of land an
additional and permanent burden of something like
2,000,0001. per annum—(opposition cheers)—this being ac-
companied with some gentle and encouraging indications
of an Increase of the malt tax. This, when those who were
connected with land looked to the government for redress,
they were met with the promise of a large increase of the
already intolerable weight of their burdens. (Hear.) He op-
these resolutions the ' that *"

sent to refer 5...t0 a
Mr. FITZROY —safdl he should certainly very much de-
precate reforricg the bill tea select committee, as that
would be to give up all idea of paring it this session.
(Hear, hear.) It was a bill which he conceived would very
much contribute to the illiterate of the public; he should
therefore take all the means in his power for getting it
passed as early as possiblot (Rear, hear.)
In answer to a Dirthet question from Sir R. Inome,
Mr FITZROY said be proposed to take the committee
on the bill next day, not later than 12 o'clock.
THE BUDGET.—ORDER OF PROCEEDING WITH
THE RESOLUYIONS.
Mr. MOFFATT inquired when the tea duty resolutions
would be introduced.
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I

posed . _. on , ground _ they were part
of a scheme of taxation which was pregnant with new and
enlarged and intolerable burdens upon the already oppressed
landed interest of this country. He opposed them because
by them it wu sought to extend the income tax to Ireland
without any justification, and without any necessity. He
opposed them because they would continuo the in-
come tax in this country, unmitigated and un-
changed, for a further period of seven years.
He would not enter upon a discussion of all the various
topics and interests which were touched by the scheme of

the right hon. gentleman. In common with the entire
country he concurred in several parts of the scheme of the
right hon. gentleman. He 'greed with him in those re-
ductions and remissions of taxes which he proposed, but it
must have occurred to many minds as somewhat singular
and strange that whereas the right bon. gentleman pro-
posed to reduce or remit 2,500,0001. per annum of taxa-
tion, the whole of that amount was to be levied in the
shape of aew taxation from the owners of land in this
country and from Ireland. (Hear, hear.) And it was no
lea strange that the very time selected for imposing
these new burdens on Ireland, and on the owners ef
land in this country was when they were recovering from
a state of great depression. (Hear, hear.) He had not
heard any reason, or anything like a reason, assignei for
selecting this particular time to an income tax or

The
quite aware of the impeennes of the question which the
hon. gentleman has pat, and am desirous to answer it. Bat
the house has it in its own discretion to prolong or curtail
those dismission. on which our proceedings must depend,
After the vote on the ineome tax resolutions, we shall pea.
pose the legacy duty resolutions. After those resolutions
are agreed to, we shell propose the second reading of the
income tax bill. We shall then propose the second reading
of the spirit duties bill, when it will be competent to the
gentleman who notice of his intention the other
--- • - .

. impose
Ireland, where no machinery existed for carrying the sys-
tem out. He now came to a most important
part of the subject—the inequalities in the schedules. The
right hon. gentleman proposed to continue the tax In its
present form, that was to Bey, with all its admitted inequa-
lity and injustice, for seven years. To that he answered
that this was a violation of the fundamental principle of
taxation in this country—that every man was to be taxed
according to his ability. (Hear, hear.) The committee
' to bear in mind that this we.' the principle of taxation

The following resolutions were agreed to:—
On the motion of Mr. T. PARKER, that the standing
orders, NJ. 170 and 174 be suspended, and that the Freston
Waterworks Bill, es amended, be considered to-morrow,
provided amended prints shall have been deposited this

On the motion of Mr. DROTHERTON, that the report j
from the select committee on standing orders, in the case
for additional provison in the Holm. Reservoirs (No. 2)
Bill be read; that it be an instruction to the committee on
the bill, that they have power to make provision therein
pursuant to the prayer of the said petition.
The following bills were severally read a third time and
pared
.—Norwich Waterworks ; Reading Market; and
Weston-Super-Mare Waterworks; Bills.
The following bills were severally read a second time
Barnsley Waterworks (No. 2) ; Sidney Susses Estate:, sag
Witham Drainage ; Bills.
The following bills having been considered, were ordered
to be read a third time :—Belfast and Ballymena ;
Bytom Counties Railway (Woodford and J.,oughton ;
Ilaslingen and Rawtenstall Waterworks; Le,. 43" (No.
2) (Amman:elite to be proposed) Manch, ster, Sheffield,
and Lincolnshire Railway (alteration of capita)); priws
l'atent Candle Company 1;4o. 2) ; and Vi igen Waterworks
and I'olicc ; Bills.

farmers whose profit% quite equalled their rent, while there
were others who by no means obtained half in annual profit.
(Hear, hear.) Unless some alterations were made in these
points he should oppose the resolutions in every staite. He
knew that the g, ntle.nen with whom he acted did not pm-
sees the ability of those who on the opposite side combined
in such str.ingc harmony and concert. lie and his friends
did nut possess the facility of allowing principle to? give
of Ironical

way to the exigencies .._ a ministry. .(l. ~ cheers).
They were however identified with the feelings and interests
of vast numbers of the most industrious of the people. It
was in the name of those classes he told the ministers, that
they would be ultimately forced to yield to necessity that
which they now refused ;es ji.siee, and that the voices of
the people of the United Kingdom would before long insist
that these numerous inequalities should cease.
Mr. LOWE said that, considering the part of the country
from which the hon. and learned gentleman came, it might
be inferred that he intended to support the amendment of
the boo. baronet the member for Hertfordshire ; although
by what legal ingenuity his speech could be supposed to
have that effect, he (Mr. Lowe? was totally at a loss to dis•
cover. The amendment said that st would be unjust to continue
theincome tax tor 7 years without redressing its inequalities.
and that it was unjust to extend it to the classes net now pay-
ing it without first removing those inequalities. That, too,
was the purport of the bon. and learned gentleman's speech.
But if he had proved anything, it was not that there were
inequalities, but exactly the contrary. To prove his case,
the hon. and learned gentleman should have established
that there were inequalities between the different 'schedules,
and that persons assessed under one schedule were better
off than those who were . d under another ; but what
he had established was something like a sermon on the
vanity of human wishes, and the fleeting nature of human
treasures. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) The hon. and
learned gentleman had shown that according to his view,
every one of the schedules was treated with inequality.
He began with land, which he said paid 9d., when it ought
to pay but 7d., and then he added that which was net cor-
rect—that the legacy duty would fall upon land, whereas
he must have known that a large portion of that duty
would fail on other property. (Hear, hear.) And
the honourable and learned gentleman went on to say
that the land was pressed down by so many burdens that
he (Mr. Lowe) expected he would conclude by showing
that all the schedules were better off than land, and nut
that he would have gone on to prove that trades, proles-
sloes, end other incomes, were equally badly off. Nothing,
the hun. and learned gentleman said, could be more
miserable than the condition of the farmers, who were as:
messed upon their rents, although they were making no
profits; but he forgot to tell the house that if the farmer
was making no profits, he was not awned on this rent at
all, and would pay no income tax. (Hear, hear.) But the
point of the hon. and learned gentleman's argument as to
schedule 13 was that the hardship merle it even us great as
those under schedule A. Next in this army of martyrs—
(a laugh)—came the fundholders, and the argument in this
case was that to tax the funds was a violation of the act of
larliamept and of the national faith. But the hon. and
earned gentleman was not more happy in showing that
schedule E was more unequal in its operation than schedules
. _
• schedv

A and B. And with regald to _....adule Dhe could hardly
congratulate the hon. sad learned gentleman on the
aptness of the example he brought forward to prove the
severity with which that schedule operated when lie quoted
the case of the late Sir W. Follett, who he believed was one
of the moat successful advocates that had ever practised,
and had made the largest fortune that had ever been made
at the bar. (Hear, hear.) The bon. and leaned gentle-
man might as well almost have endeavoured to enlist the
compassion of the house for himself. (Cheers and laughter.)
What the hon. and learned gentleman proposed was, that
every person paying income tax, under whatever schedule,
was entitled to a large reduction—that in every case there
was:inequality, and to remove that inequality that an equal
quantity should be taken from cash. (" Hear, hear,"
and a laugh.) The honourable and learned gentleman
seemed to suppose that the problem was to be solved by
the application of the same principle that prevailed in
assurance offices of averaging lien, but that would by no
means meet the difficulty of the case. It might very well
suit an assurance office to take the average duration of
human life, and fix the rate of the premiums so as to secure
itself from loss by a system of compensation—that was
making the lona lives compensate for the short. There
there was a voluntary contract between the parties, and the
parties were willing to bear the inequality; but it was not
so with regard to the income tax, consequently the case did
not apply. It did not appear that the hon. and learned
gentleman, or the other members who had spoken on the
other side of the house, did justice to the argument of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. They seemed to forget that
his right hon. friend started from this proposition, that
it was an income tax, and not a property tax,
that was the immense resource to be kept in reserve, to be
brought out only in time of very great necessity, and re-
sorted to only while the necessity continued. Hon. gen-
tlemen, however, would preserve the tax, and to make it
permanent they wished it to be graduated, and they would
take Schedule D and reduce the tax under it to sd. ; but
when they thus destroyed the income tax, and made it
something else—when they had substituted for the tempo-
rary income to a bad and one-sided but permanent pro-
perty tax, what became of the resource to fall back upon in
the hour of dieleu:ty ? (Hear, hear.) But it had been
welled that the way to preserve the income tax as a re-
,' scares was to maks it just; and that when you had arranged
it ea just and equal principles, then you could preserve it
MI be used in the hour of peril. Now, nothing
could be more fallacious than the idea of making
the income tax "just." You could never make
it jest in the sense in which Mr. Mills and others who
took the same view used it, that was in the sense of making
it bear equally on all. It was said there was no reason
why some of the more flagrant inequalities of the tax which
struck us at first sight might not be removed. Suppose they
entered upon the task, where would they stop ? Take ache.
dole D, and he would put his own case. He was the pro-
prietor of property in Sydney, as valuable, and he believed
it to be more so than it would be were it in London ; he
derived from that property an income, yet he paid no in-
come tax upon it. Would aot the professional man say,
and say with justice, if you attempted to remove these ine-
qualities—" here is a gentleman with as large or a larger in-
come than am making from my profession, and while I
have to pay a tax on the whole of mine, he, because
he derives it from one of our foreign possessions, pays
none—why should my income be taxed, while his is ex-
empt?" they turned to Schedule E there were the
same glaring inequalities. A man who had an income from
Terminable Annuities which expired in 1860 might reason-
ably complain that he paid the same rate of tax as the
holder of permanent annuities. And turning to Schedule
C, the under secretaries of the Treasury might reasonably
complain that they, whose tenure of office depended per-
haps upon an ill-timed word in a debate, or upon the acci-
dent of half-a-dosen members being shut out from a divi-
sion, should pay the same tax as the permanent secretary,
whose office was for life. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) It
was hopeless to attempt to introduce equality, and to con-
tend for such a principle was to throw the apple
of discord amongst all classes. (Hear, hear.) To carry out
that principle they would have to subdivide every schedule
into almost innumerable classes, and the classes would have
to be subdivided again until they came down to individual
eases, in which they would have to take into consideration
the age, health, family, and every incident of human life.
The hon. and learned gentleman had been extremely pa-
thetic in reference to the extension of the tax to Ireland.
lie seemed to suppose that it was in the power of the state
to remit taxes at its pleasure for any class, and that when
they were remitted from one body of the people the money
had not to be paid by anybody else. That was not the case,
for in public finance the expenditure was first fixed, and
then the ways and means must be provided, so
that if any one clue of penou were relieved from

their fair portion of the necessary evotribution to
make up the gross amount, an extra burden must fall upon
the rest to cover the deficiency thus occasioned. The hon.
and learned gentleman would exempt Ireland when it was
proposed to levy the income tax on incomes over 1001. a
year, but the hon. and learned gentleman mast remember
that, if Ireland did not pay the 400,0e01. it was calculated
would be thus raised, somebody else must pay it, and that
somebody else was Great Britain. (Hear, hear.) And he
wanted to know what ground the people of Ireland had
I call on the of Great Britain to - her burdens

to --t on people pay her
for her ? (Hear, hear.) The principle of free trade was
one of gradual sad social equality—its object and its
tendency was that no class of her Mejetty's subjects
should be taxed for the benefit of any other class,
and, consistently with that principle, how could any one
get up and justify the levying taxes on Great Britain, and
exonerating Ireland ? But with regard to Ireland, the re-
mina°. or she Consolidated Annuities wt.. a WI yquivalent
hr the tax. It was true that one part of Ireland was not
liable to the Consolidated Annuities, and it was said You
were placing a new burden on the people there." But was
it fair or honourable to the people of this country, that
those parts of Ireland that were prosperous, and had suf-
fered no distress, should be exempt from their share of the
public burden, ? (Hear.) If they wore to exclude
Ireland

from th• present arrangement, they mast
bid adieu to financial reform. They had heard
a great deal lately about tenant right but with
what consistency would the advocates of tenant
right resist a measure the result of which would be to take
the burden off the poor cattier, who was now subject to the
annuity rate, and place it upon thmeof persons the poorest
among whom mast possess 1001. a year. The hon. and
learned member for Belfast had told the house they must
not take credit for relieving Ireland of the consolidated an-

. _
pliant gentleman ..-- gave u- __
___ ought r r . _ -- -- -- -----
day to contest the principle of that bill, to take the opinion in this country. To propose, therefore, for a period of 1 nuities, for the never meant to pay them. (No, no.) That
tax bill into committee, took. i Hear,
. hear," and " No.") What did that amount
of the house upon it. After that bill is read • second time, seven years, with a prospect of its being permanent, an in• was the line of argument the hon. and learned gentleman
we pro to carry the income come tax which levied the
.came amount oa permanent
losing no time, so far as depends on the government, in and precarious Incomes violated the first principles to ? That Insh. gentlemen came to that house and said,
carrying those measures through their successive stages, of justice. (Hear, hear.) The injustice and me- " You over-estimate our credit—you think we are people
After the committee oa the income tax bill, we shall then quality of the tax were admitted on all aides, and who mean to pay our debts, and not to be insolvent—no-
propose at once all the resolutions that relate to customs that 'being so, it wanhis opinion that it would thing of the kind ; you had better write off this debt at
duties ; and those remissions will take effect from the day be far better to look for some other means of taxation than once, for we
on which .:rie resolutions shall be voted and reported to the to an income tax which so obviously violated every prin- laughter, and cries of " Oh" from the Irish members.)
house. (Hear, hear.) dple of justice. (Rear.) The hon. member for Stoke bad Then the right hon. member for Portsmouth said it was
been cited as a great authority, having gone into the cont. a pity to introduce the income tax to Ireland,
SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS. mittee impressed with the inequality, and come out equally for it would tend to demoralise the people, and teach them
Sir. J. PAKINGTON said it wan desirable that the impressed with the impossibillty of rectification. He (Sir to cheat the government. (" Oh, oh," and laughter.)
eon ntry should be informed what were the intentions of F. Kelly) did not deny the difficulty of the task, but that was That argument he thought he might well leave to be
t)'.e government with regard to the important subject of no reason why they should shrink from it. He did not think answered by the hon. and learned member for Belfast.
'secondary punishments. it was possible to do exact justice, but yet such an apprexl. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned member for Belfast
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not name a day for nation might be made as would greatly mitigate the suffer. said this was a rate in aid, but had the hon. and learned
bringing the subject under the consideration of the house ings of the classes who now complained so loudly. In member any right to complain of it on that score, seeing
I
until the commercial questions now before the house were
Den equal tax was levied on certain incomes, and that the rate in aid was borne not by Ireland only, but by
disposed of. on the profits arising from uncertain professions. It was Great Britain also? (Hear.) Were the terms we were
DURATION OP THE INCOME TAX. schedule
said th,t it was impossible to graduate the latter, but he constantly using, " the United Kingdom of Great Britain
Mr. PACKE wished to ask the Chancellor of the Es- would suggest that, according to their comparative precs. and Ireland," meaningless forms and shame, or were they
chequer (having his assurance that the income tax should riousness, they might he calculated in periods at frem sto truth? He took it that in dealing with Ireland we wore
ewe at the end of seven yeah) whether he would give an 10 year!, and • reduction made as compared with the not to be understood as negotiating treaties with a foreign
aption to compound for the future payment of the tax by • Seed incomes of from 25 to 33 per cent. He did not say country, or adjusting terms with those who had rights
payment in one sum, or by instalments. that this arrangement would he perfect, but it would be at conflicting with our own. He wished to see Ireland re-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am least an approximation to justice. The cue of the farmer, garded in allthings as an integral part of the empire. (Hear.)
quite willing to promise to take • matter of this kind into also, required alteration. At present the farmer rented at Wo ought to look upon Ireland as we did upon Yorkshire
---lduation. 1 should be very glad if it could be done ; 400/. a year, was taxed at 2001. But there were many .or Hampshire, and it would be as reasonable to have sera-

rate accounts with those counties as it was to have separate
accounts with Ireland. (Cheets.) He was anxious to see
the work of the censaidation of the t napire rrogress, and
the first step towards it was the equal:eation of taxation.
(Hear.) Whateva might be the errors hon. g. ntlemen
opposite might discover in the budget he thought his right
hon. friend was entitled to great credit for it. (Hear.) It
had been framed in no mean or servile spirit, but
upon broad and comprehensive principles. It was
true the Chuccellor of the Exchequer might have
adopted the rough justice of the right hon. member
for Buckinghamshire, and introduced a principle which
would have frittered the income tax to atoms and rendered
it;useless, if it bad been required fur any future emer-
gency. lie might have proposed its continuance for three
years as that right hon. gentlemen did, nut, he was per-
suaded, with any intention of their getting rid of it ; but
under the plea of making it more tolerable, though be
knew well that was impossible. Or he might have proposed
to levy the income tax on funds and official salaries only in
Ireland; but he had preferred to come forward fairly with
a plan for continuing it fbr a limited period, and ex-
tending it, while it continued, to Ireland as well as
England and Scotland. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.) His
right lion. friend had never pledgad himself that the tax
would be extinguished at the end of the seven Jean.
(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the opposition.) so one
knew better than Isis right hon. friend that no one parlia-
ment could pledge another, and that in 1860 the question
would again be debated, and be decided upon its merits
and the requirements of the country at the time. All his
right hon. friend did was to show that in 186) the tax
might, according to ordinary computation, supposing no ex-
traordinary occurrence took place,be dispensed with. His right
lion. friend had refrained from courting temporary popularity,
by stating that the tax would certainly cease in seven years,
and motives equally honourable had induced him boldly to
propose that while it continued in operation Ireland should
be liable to it, in order that when the time came to decide
whether the emergency was sufficient to justify the pro-
longation of the tax, the discussion might not be distracted
by a debate as to whether it ought to be extended to Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) He thought the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was entitled to the confidence of the house and
of the country for his budget, and he believed the princi-
ples he had laid down in it would do him even more credit
than the able speech with which he introduced it. (Cheers.)
Mr. I. BUTT, whose rising was the signal for a general
clearing of the treasury bench, from which Mr. Lowe had
addressed the hour, and where Mr. Wilson only remained,
gave a decided opposition to the income tax as an imperial
measure, and a determined opposition to it on Irish grounds.
With regard to the budget generally, he maintained that its
effect would be to oppress the poorer elutes in both king-
doms, while the principal benefits which it proposed were
the relief of those who rode in the their own carriages, and
an increase in the number of attorneys. Returning to the
subject of Ireland (for the third or fourth time), he sug-
gested a select committee to inquire into the capacity of that
country to pay the ox with which it was proposed to burden
her. After a personal attack upon Mr. Cobden, for his
" slander" of Ireland on Friday evening, which he chal-
lenged him to prove, ho concluded by opposing the motion,
whether considered as relating simply to the income tax or
to the budget as a whole.
Mr. Serjeant MURPHY could not see why—as an in-
come tax must inevitably, sooner or later, be extended to
Ireland—he should now assist in turning out a ministry
whom he had contributed to bring into power. It was the
duty of members to consider questions in their relations to
imperial interests, and nut with reference to particular lo-
calities ; and the present was essentially an imperial ques-
tion. He denied that Ireland had gained nothing by free
trade, and had any right to claim exemption on that ground,
and instanced the compensatory benefits offered by the
budget as an additional reason why she should submit to
the tax. The remission of the Consotidateil Annuuities had
been admitted to be a great boon, and so was the reduction
in the tea duties, for so popular was that beverage be.
coming in Ireland, that in some cases (here some hon.
members were observed to shake their heads) it was sub.
stituted for whisky.
There was a general rising on the opposition side when
Mr. Serjeant bitterns sat down, but Mr. CONOLLY was
the successful competitor. He made a long speech in oppo-
sition to the resolution.

Mr. R. B. ROCHE maintained the justice of the Income
Tax, from which he believed that Ireland would gain, espe-
cially OA regarded her tenant farmers, even more than
England. He supported the budget because he believed it
to be a budget for the working classes, for the farmers, for
the artisans, and for the people of Ireland.
Mr. DISRAELI—Although there are several hon. mem-
bers representing places in Ireland who wish to address
you, and who are desirous of answering the hon. gentleman
who has just spoken (Mr. B B. Roche), still, as this debate
has now lasted for a whole week, perhaps it is not pre-
sumptuous in me to express my opinion and the opinion of
some English members upon the question before us, espe-
cially as, whether we divide to-night or not—and I for one
hope that we may divide—there will be many occasions on
which other hon. gentlemen may offer their opinions, for
Ist present we are only upon the threshold of the
debate. tinder these circumstances, sir, I take
das liberty of offering some observations. In con-
sidering the budget of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer with all that attention which so considerable a
' proposition deserves, I am bound to say that to the general
principles upon which its financial policy is framed, I must
give my entire approbation. (Hear, bear.) I state that in
no spirit of affected i.patronage, nor to obtain credit for a
magnanimity which is not required by the occasion ; but I
say it because I find in the principles upon which it is
framed the identical principles which, only four months
ago, on two occasions, upon the other side of the table, I
endeavoured to impress upon the consideration of this
house. (Cheers from the opposition benches.) Sir, I
said then that I thought the time had arrived when it
was necessary to assimilate our financial policy to our
new commercial system. (Hear, hear.) I do not know who
said " Hear, hear ;" I think it was the noble lord opposite
(Lord J. Russell). I think also it was he who, four months
ago rose, and in a spirit, certainly of incredulity if not of
ridicule, spoke of the idea of assimilating our financial
policy to our new commercial system, as a wild conception
which had nothing to do with the practical affairs of life.
(Laughter.) He said then, Sir, that "in order to assimi-
late our financial policy to our new commercial system, we
must make up our minds to commence and complete an en-
tire revision of our taxation." Will the noble lord say
" Hear, hear," to that? Because I remember, when ha
made the observation before—but four short months ago—
the noble lord said, "It was most ridiculous to enter
upon a complete revision of our taxation ; that our
taxation had been revised more than once ; and that any-
thing like a financial revision of taxation was unnecessary
and out of the question ; that all we could do was to let the
principles which had been established with respect to our
finances operate in a natural manner, and that any effort
to have a formal revision of taxation was a thing that
could never influence the affairs of the world." I am ex-
tremely glad to hear at the commencement of my observa-
tions that the noble lord has changed his opinion. But,
sir, it was not merely the noble lord who held these
opinions. We had a very able Speech, unfortun-tely deli-
vered in a thinner house than it deserved, from a member
of the administration (Mr. Lowe), the Secretary of a Board-
-1 believe the Secretary of a Board because he made a
speech against the last budget—and what did that hon.
gentleman say ? The hon. gentleman the Secretary of the
Board of Control "saw no case made out for this revision
of taxation " in the month of December last ; " all that
they—i. e., the house—had to do, was to continue going on
as they had gone on throughout—(laughter)—and, when
the surplus could be disposed of, it should be by making
further remissions of taxation, upon the same principle as
former remissions had been made. He held that, when
this was done, all was done that a wise government could
do under the circumstances." But, great as was the
indignation of the present government, because I had re-
course to a method which was necessary to carry out my
policy, namely, the creation of a deficiency to be supplied
by new taxation, their indignation was still greater at the
fact that I should presume to anticipate the
management of our finances at a period more
advanced than the termination of the impending
financial year. I must quote upon this sub-
ject again from the words of the hon. member for Kidder-
Minster (Mr. Lowe), because not only is he an hon. but
also a very high minded member. He has told us to-night
be is one of those who will never sacrifice anything for
ephemeral popularity—(hear, hear,)—he is a man who will
sot to-day say one thing and to-morrow another to gain
any temporary end. Listen to the words of the hon. mem-
ber for Kidderminster. Mark that in oeder to carry into
effect a complete revision of our financial system it was
Recesaary to have recourse to two proesailioge. The first
was to create a deficiency by the remission of taxes, which
only could be supplied by others. The second was, that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, engaged in such an enter-
prise, must seek to control the financial arrangements of
more than tie financial year. That, however, did not meet
with the approval of the hon. member (Mr. Lowe) ; he
said, " the right hon. gentleman " (meaning myself). " had
given them two budgets to consider—one for 1853, tho
other for 1854. The wisest man would have enough to de
in attempting to take a correct view of the financial condi-
tion of a great country, even for a single year." (Cheers and
laughter.) And now we have a budget for seven years.
But not content with this we have other financial proposi•
lions which fix the rate of interest for nearly half a cen-
tury. (Hear.) Well, Sir, having given my apprebation of the
general principles upon which the financial scheme of the
government is founded—because, as I asserted, those prin-
ciples are identical with the principle 'upon which my own
was founded. (Derisive cheers.) Tho process is the same
—(oh, oh)—but the application of the principle may be
different ;—(laughter)—and as the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer seems to scoff al my assertion, I shall take the
liberty of establishing the propriety of my observation. I
come now to see whether I can give the same approbation
to the application of those principles. And, first, I will
esnaider the resolution to which the amendment of my
hon. friend the member for Hertfordshire especially
refers, namely, the resolution respecting the income
tax. The right honourable gentlemen proposed that we
should continue this tax for the term of seven years.
(Hear, hear.) It is a tax which never in our time
has been proposed for a term of the same duration.
(Hear, hear.) Irrespective of all other considerations, I
shall advert to the recommendation the right hon. gentle-
man gives to the tax on account of its term. The right
hon. gentleman objects to provisional budgets, or to having
our national finances in a state which is not established and
confirmed, not does he think that any arm of our finance
should be of a temporary or doubtful character. Hers is
a publication, a great authority I am told, which seems to
express a similar opinion. I allude to an article in the
Economitt newspaper. (Laughter.) The article is headed
" The budget, its great polital features ;" and it goes on to
say—" Nothing could be more disgraceful to a great nation,
or more injurious to its best interests, than to permit its
financial condition to be exposed to the uncertainty which