The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—TUZSDAT, itilLY 10.
The Berl of EINAIIZIBUIT (Deputy Speaker) took his
seat at 6 o'idock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
SECOND REA DlNOS.—lrish South Easters Railway
(amenstrat of acts) ; Taunton Town and Market Improve-
ment; Lancaster and Preston Junction Railway Acts
s
Asleadiaent (power to alter tolls sad for appoiatmeat
awn) ; Easton Comities leaseorfolk Railways Amalie.
sinus ; Hone Reservoirs ( of rates and amendment
et
avizel
Allen an Dante/alias Railway (deviatios
to Allem Barbsur, diversion of certain works. eats.-
sin at time for eoup'ating line and taking load, sad ansad-
ment ants) ; Caledonian Railway (lease or.purolaame of the
Okminaw, Bari bead, and Neileton Direct Railway); J.
THIRD READlNG.—Laneashire and Toddy, Beii-
way (Wean= of Ashton breach of Clifton brands, as.
SRL
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PEIITIONS PRESENTED.
Raman or Turned.— the Bishop of ROCHESTER,
Been clergy of dill of Colehei ter ; also from the
Berg et the rani &many of Hocking, in Bases ; the
Bishop of ST. Af3APII, from slams in his diocese, eon
Oolong of the swim in which tithes are rated.
NIVITOIINDIAND.—By the But of HARROWBY, from
the House Amend! of Newsosadlad, calling the attn.
dos of the hoses to the • saner la which portime of the
king 011111M4 had boss gives up to the French and Amni-
ons, and the bonny given to them, in ocasequenoe of whisk
the patitioners could not samento with them.
The Enclosure Act (Bstonelos of Powers) Bill, and the
Mtn for Schools Bill emerally paned through committee,
end ware reported to the home.
NEWFOUNDLAND.

church has. The church which he attended was put down
ea having 100 sittings, when the congregation was only 35.
Number of churches in diocese of Erni, l2
Ditto of sittings
Itathroosau, diocese of Lend" 100 dttinp...No protestant/.
Daeonebmore ditto No protestant".
Ontragh ditto No protestant'.
And he got a letter this morning in which there was
mention of a parish In the county of 'Waterford which bad
not one protestant. He came now to the dio-
cese ef Glary, and Ossory was a remarkable
diocese, because you would expect to find more pro-
tostants there, the great bulk of the pioperty being held
exclusively by protestant proprietors. He referred to a
pamphlet published by a gentleman well known in the law,
Mr Serjeent Skim, and he recommended it to the perusal of
the government and the church of Rome in Ireland, and he
wrote as follows:—" In Callan, in the diocese of Chatty,
there was (+bathroom for 256, the income was 2,1971. Ifs. 7d.,
and the congregation 871 During the progress of the late
trials at Clonmel whilst the Roman catholic chapels were
full the congregation in the protestant church was
eight -seven, besides tea soldiers belonging to a regiment
in the town. The established church of Ireland
bad the care of 852,000 souls, and for that duty the state
provided 2 are-bishops, 10 bishops, and 2,207 clergy. One
of the archbishops had 12,0671 , the other 7,7861. per annum.
Clogher, 10,0001.; Derry, 8,0001.; the clergy, amongst them,
680,8381. He did not reckon palaces, parks, or glebe houses.
The estates belonging to the bishops consisted of 6,692,247
acres. He looked upon Dublin University as being one of the
engine' of the church, end found there had been no less than
3,361,6001. advanced since the union for the support of the
protestant church. Was this state of things to be allowed
to continue? What was the case in France and Scotland ?
There were—
Thirty talks Roman catholic* in Trance. Revenues-1,500,0001.
retest emeelird ottbis required is Ireland for less than a m Sion
pr ; the metestent church of France has 150,0001. per
edam& Meath. remossofthe Scotch church :—ln thelime of Adam
Smith theyeeshyMrisaelturebbad 50,0000. per annum. The Scotch
alter* at praise had about 200,0000. In Ireland, 9e0,000 protes-
tant' ; 1,613 Demises with staff ; 2,207 ministers ; '7,000,000 Roman
enthaille 2,861 priwge. The state provision for 1100,000 protestints
smeewtee to MOM. per annum ; ditto for 7,000,000 Homan
ewesnil.
his a state of things which a government, and, above
all, a whig government, should suffer to continue year after
year in Ireland ? In 1835 they took the tithe egistment ; it
was said it was to strengthen toff the
interest. Ia 1831
they confiscated 25 per cent. of the tithes ;in 1833 they
abolished vestry cress, and ten bishoprics. Before the rebel-
lion in Canada there were certain lands appropriated for the
sustainment of the protestant faith. After the rebellion—
and he regretted to say that we never did any of these things
till blood had been shed—an set was passed m this house, by
which these clergy reserves were taken away, and at the
preeent day then clergy reserves, which wee, meant lon the
protestant church, were given for the sustainment and
payment of the Roman catholic church in Canada.
The bishops all consented to the passing of that bill e=%*
the Bishop of Eater, who looked upon it as sacrilege. Is
asking the house to go into committee to consider the tea
poralities of the church of Ireland, he had too intention of
abolishing the Irish church. He was convinced that every
useful reform must be founded in mutual forbearance. He
did not wish to interfere with vested rights, but
was anxious to have the congregational plan adopted
if practicable, as being much more expedient
than the present tetritorial system. He found that in the
diocese of Chester one bishop, until lately, presided over
1,500,000 souls, while in Ireland there were ten bishops to
800,000. (Hear, hear.) That was to say that in Ireland
there was one bishop to each 118 benefices, and in Eng-
land one to 410. Gentlemen were in the habit of crying
out, " More bishops:" his ay was, " More working clergy.'
He should propoee, if they went into committee, to reduce
the church of Ireland to one archbishop, at 4,0001. a year,
and the ten bishops to five, at 2,0001. each. Many, he knew,
would object to this, but he looked upon it as a matter of
compromise. (Hear, beer.) He believed that such a plan
would meet the approval of parliament. The noble lord, the
first minister of the crown, had already given in his adhesion
to the congregational system. The noble lord, in Feb., 1844,
said:
I concur in the plan propounded, es it is said, by Dr. Whitely, the
Archbishop of DORN for making it a church of congregations, not
parishes, as under the present system. I think tho protestant church
ought** be fully provided for, but I do not believe that anything like
the amount at present allotted to it is necessary for the purpose. II
yen sompue amount allotted to the Irish church with that of
Bachand, and in most continental countries, you will say it la sot ne-
-0111•1111.
It might be said that this was not a proper time for enter-
taining-the question. If it were not, when would be the
proper time ? (Hear, hear.) la committee he should pro.
pose the following resolution—" That it is the opinion of
this committee that any surplus that may remain, after fully
providing for the spiritual instruction of the Protestants of
Ireland should be applied locally to the education of all
classes." (Hear, hear.) Het had now, at some length, in-
troduced this motion. He trusted that the house would not
think at unnecessary length—(Hear, hear)—but before he
sat down he must warn the government that they need not
look upon the present state of Ireland as one affording any
real grounds of satisfaction. They had heard of
large and comprehensive measures for that country,
but all ministers had done upon succeeding to office was to
suspend the Habeas Corpus, and to pass an amended poor
law, following in their amendment tho plan of an eminent
pathologist, who attempted to feed a starving dog with the
produce of its own tail. When the poor law failed, they
passed a mein aid. (" Hear," and laughter.) They (the
government) bail lately had a bloodless triumph, and had
paralysed agitation for the present, but they must not think
that in doing so they had extinguished the feelings or sym-
pathies of a nation. He warned them not to mistake the
silence of famine and despair for the tranquillity of happi-
ness and content. (Hear.) If he were allied to the govern-
ment, or had weight with them, he would not urge that this
was not the proper time, but would advise them to seise the
opportunity that Providence presented, and boldly to put
this question which was at the root of all the heartbunnog
and discontent which had too long prevailed in Ireland, on
the footing which their former professions and the history
of their party justified the people in expecting from them.
(Cheers.)
Mr. MOORE. in supporting the motion, denied that
there was anything in the oath taken by Roman catholic
members to prevent their legislating( for the temporalities of
the church. The church of Leland was, it was true, a part
of the church of England, but it was a part so diseased and
rotten, as to stink in the nostrils of the whole civilised
world. Could it be said then that in asking to excise the
diseased part they were seeking to destroy the living body ?
(Hear.) Not a vestige of title wall be shown for the presori
applicatia of the Irish church temporalities. The Irish church
was founded not to be the patrimony of a small seat, but for
the benefit end happiness of the whole people. The object
of the first protestant reformers in setting aside funds for the
support of a protestant church was the religious instruction
of whole people—but how had that object been carried out?
In the south and south west of Ireland there were many pa-
rishes from which large incomes ranked where there was
neither church, glelse, nor resident elcaymen. In the diocese
of Tuam he (Mr. Moore) paid tithes in eight parishes, in
neither of which was there church, glebe, or resident ia.
gymen—nor, as far as he knew, a protestant inhabitant—and
where divine service according to the protestant religion had
not been celebrated since the reformation. (Hear, hear.)
He bad received letters in reference to other parishes, in
which the protestant population amounted to 20 or 30 per-
sons, but where no provisi in was made for the religious
wants, though large incomes were derived from those
parishes by non-resident clergymen. Were these the ob-
jects which the protestant reformers sought when they
founded the protestant established church in Ireland? All
the arguments which he had heard in favour of the existing
system were merely in exteneation—all acknowledged the
evil; but it was said that it was not so great as had been
alleged, the revenues of the church were not so large, nor'
were the duties so entirely a sinecure as was asserted.
No one attempted to prove that the protestant
established church in Ireland had fulfilled its mis
sion. (Hear, hear.) The only purpose for which these
revenues were taken from the country, appeared to be
to provide for come twelve resident noblemen and some 2,000
educated gentlemen ; in short, these abuses were perpetuated
to make provision for the younger sons of the aristocracy.
He knew that the majority of hon. members came to
the house bound to vote against their consciences, in olo-
diners to the bigotry out ef doors which they despised.
They acknowledged, indeed, the enormity of the abuse, and
yet they were unable to vote spinet it on account of the
orinediem of the people. He thought this wait unworthy of
them. They should resolve not to be ruled by prejudices
and passions,
befitting but seriouslto consider what was the course of
conduct mint the honour of the legislature, and
mat condtteive to the welfare of the people ; and they
would rely upon it that by adopting the present motion they
would lay the foundation of the social regeneration of Ire.
land, and cement a lasting union between the two countries.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY wished to make an announcement at
the outset, with the view of removing an apprehension en-
tertained by the hon. member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne),
that he should not, on the part of the government, meet the
avant motion by moving the priori ins question. There
might be occasions when to move the previous question
might be a very proper mode of proceeding ; but, looking
et all the circumstance. under which this motion was brought
forward, and the particular effect it might be likely to pro.
duce on the object of the hon. and gallant mover, he was
not prepared to go into a committee of the whole
honer, and therefore he fe't justified in voting against the
motion. (Hear, bear) The hon. member for Middlesex
bad warned the government that they were not to congratu-
late th twelves en the present condition of Ireland, and he
had intimated his opinion that that rendition was not one
of unmingled sa'iafactinn. He (Sir G. Grey) agreed with
him (Hear, bear.) The condition of Ireland was one
which it was impossible to contemplate without deep win
end regret ; but be was unable to see in the motion of the
hon. and gallant gentleman, brought forward under present
circumstances—(hear. heal—the slighted approximation to
a remedy for those model evils which afflicted Ireland, and to
which attention had been and ought to he directed. (Cheers.)
The hon. member for Mayo (Mr. M •orel said that be sup-
ported the motion. though there was very little in his roach
relating to it, and he also said that he supported it because he
thought it calculated to remove domestic disagreements and
to lessen nolitieal discontent. Now he (Sir G. Grey) be-
lieved that there was nothing in the motion which could
have any ether effect than that of earl log domestic and po-
litical disagreement, and which at the present moment ex-
Wed to a moth less extent than it did at any former period.
(Hear) Toe hon. member for Middles*: had occupied a
considerable portion of time by quoting sentiments ex-
termed by different member' of the house and the govern.
meat, arid he did Inn (Sir G. Grey) the honour to quote
his opinions. He had erroneously stated that the lot
opinions he (err G. Grey) had *'livered were in 1834,
and he observed that. there had hecn art ominous
'Meet.* On the subject of the Irish church ever since, and that
from the time a motion was made by the first lord of the

treasury nothing had been uttered upon the mutter. The
bon. gentleman also acid that it should net be his fault if he
did not refresh the memory of the members of the govern-
meat; but it was to be regretted that in refreshing the me-
mories of otlurs, his own memory had failed, although he
had been cotsulting the pages of Hansard. The hon. mem-
ber must have forgotten the debates in 1135 ties
the motisn of the first lord of the treasury. I)is.
mations then ensued on the subject of the Irish
church, in the course of which he (Sir G. Grey) stated hit
opinion egairtst the policy. and expediency of maintaining in
Ireland a church exclusively endowed, that church being
the church of the minority. (Cheers.) That cpieion he
entertained still, and was there scything in the plm of the
hon. member for Middlesex which affected the principle of
iszclusivenets ? What was his remedy ? What did tee pro.
pwe ? He proposed an humble imitation of what read beet
done by a greater man than himself at any former period
—Lord Stanley. His lordship, at a time when there were
twenty bishops in Ireland, had reduced the number
to ten, and the bon, member for Middlesex now proposed
still further to reduce it to five. He regretted that the hon,
member for Mayo had alluded to the past history of the
church, and that he had not given credit to the protestant
elegy for the exertions they had made during the re-
cent famine, irrespective of creed and plry, to
alleviate the sufferings and to mitigate the woes
of their sufferimer fellowecreetures. (" Hear," and cheers.)
With regard to the Irish Society, he begged to say that it
was not identified with the Irish church, It was a volute-
tary society, supported by voluntary c:Ttril•uti,no, and as
such he scarcely expected to hear the hon. g .ittieman, who
was an advocate for that principle, object to it. I 1,11,4
was to send forth men of a missionary spirit who could 'peak
the Irish language, and by that means et 'lvey spiritual in-
struction to their fellow countrymen. If the he e. pestle-
man meant by alluding to it to charge him (Sir G. Grey)
with anv sympathy for, or with givvg wistrtice to, those
who took advantage of the existing distress to withhold re.
lief except upon the condition of abjuring their faith—then
did he utterly repudiate any such imputation. (Hear, hear.)
As the absence of his noble friend *(Lord Ru•sell) bad
been commented on, he begged to say that it was owing to
domestic causes, but for which it had been the noble
lord's full intention to be present.

Mr. E. B. ROCHE said that the right hon. baronet while
he had totally abandoned the church, bud not at all sue.
ended in patching up whig inconsistency. The right hon.
baronet bad, however, raised a question from which he (Mr.
Roche) felt bound to dissent. The right hon. baronet ad-
mitted that the church establishment in Ireland was a great
injutice, but he thought that that injustice could be
done away with by planting another church esta-
blishment alongside the present. Now, instead of
that being a countervailing advantage, it was °beton% that
when an impoverished country complained ot the burden of
• rich church establishment, the way to remedy tee grieve
ante was not by giving her two instead ot one such establish-
meet. (Hear, bear) The right hon. gentle man had
completely given up the Irish church in argument, thoegh
not practically, and it was therefore needle es to argue
against it ; and they had not yet had a single speech mom
its able defenders on the opposite side of the house calling for
a reply. He wished to know from them upon what ground
was it that they would defend that church in Ireland? Was
it upon the ground of religious truth? (Yes.) An hon.
gentleman said et was. Then they were in that house re-
quired to assert religions truth by as act of parliament.
b they
u t gh to'4 thete
catbtehoclihcurcrehligoifoLnoewnedroceraednaadtableotttar
(Neer, hear.) They had Hiodooism in India; they bad
the
reveruer of
support of the Roman catholic religion ; and they had the peep
byterian church established in Scotland. Hiv then amid
they say it was to maintain religious truth that they had a
protestant church established in Irelanu ? (Hear, bar,)
The whole system of aggravated outrage in Ireland
could be traced to the church es a political establishment
The wild justice of ge had shown itself against the tithe
proctors, and when they virtually made the landl..rd the tithe
proctor, he was but too often sacrificed in the same way.
then, the Irish church was not to be maintained on religing
nor political grounds, he knew not upon what other pond.
But he knew that the great majeirity of the Irish peo. Is hod
made up their minds that that large establishment should be,
if not altogether abropted, very much mitigated, and that
object he should use bra best exertions to attain.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON offered his acknowle dements to
the right hon. baronet the Home Secretary fer meeting this
motion by a direct negative, for he believed no policy would
prove more fatal in Ireland than any exhibition ot weakness
on the part of the government on this question. There bad
been for some time a great absence ot anything like aerie
monious feeling on the sueject of religion in Ireilend, and if
the question were now to be raised they would have
to contend with the great misfortune and calamity of
a revival of religious and acrimonious discus ions.
With reference to the abuses of the Irish church, he would
' observe that if that estabishment had heretofore failed to
accomplish its objects, that failure was attribu• able to those
abuses which themselves arose from the church haring heft
used by successive governments as a political envine. (Hun
hear.) He would maintain the established church in Ireland
on the same grounds as he would maintain a church up
where—for the rake of upholding and extending the pH*.
ciples of religious truth ; and for this purpose he held that
the Irish church was most efficient. The hon. member who
had last 'Token was incons.stent in the charges he brought
against that church ; he at once accused the clergy of inert-
ness, and of too great anxiety for proeelytizing. The re-
venues of the Irish church had tang been a subject of great
exaggeration ; and no less so on this occasion, when its in-
come had been stated to amount to F-65,0001., the income of
the clergy being 888,838/. He had taken great
paint to obtain accurate information on this ;mint, which he
would verify to any lion. member who might desire it.
The first complaint usually brought against any church mu
the existence of pluralities, and many might auppoee that
they existed to a great extent in the Irish church. In
183 i, the number was 81 ; while in 1843, 34 had Yr en abo-
lished. The process of abolition had since gone on, and no
faculty had been granted for • plurality since 1828. Hence
the pluralities were rapidly in course of extinction. The
next matter of complaint was sinecures. Under the Church
Temporalities Act and the Act 4 and 6 Wm. IV., provision
was made for their abolition, and 60 had been abolished
sines 1834. He admitted that at ens time unions of pas
rishes existed to a great extent. Their origin was the
poyerishosent of the clergy, arising out of the tithe
' adjustment. By the acts just referred to, the Lord
Lieutenant had power to dissolve such unions, and
even to divide parishes whose value
exceeded
8001. Since 1833, 63 unions had been dissolved
in this way ; but it was not possible to dissolve the whole, for
in some eases they were absolutely necessary, owing to the
smallness of the income of certain parishes, or to other etr-
cuinstanees, where, as in Cork, a distillery occupied Gs
whole of one parish—(laughter)—and this was necassrffy
united with other parishes. In Wexford, one parish tem
tained only 40 yards equare, another 200; such parishes were
necessarily grouped into naive*. The next point wee the
non-residence of the clergy. Br returns from four dioceses,
he found that in Armagh, in 1819, 15 were nonresident out
of 82 cleraymen ; while in 1849, only 5 out of 102 were noes
resident. In the other three dioceses the numbers were as
follow:

No. of clergy. Nem.teddest
1819
1849 .. . 107
leis ....•.«...•
147
rent
SS
Cashel and Waterford no
1619
Could he have obtained returns from the other diocess,
be had nos doubt the same result would have been shown.
(Hear, hear.) As to the alleged excessive wealth of the
church, he would observe that the church property mightbs
divided into that held by the parochial clergy, and that of
the dignitaries and bishops. The evidence given Worse
committee of last session showed that the former amounted
to 453,0941.—the latter to 369,6601. The amount of rats
struck in Ireland last year was 2s. 94. in the pound, which
deducted from the above sum of 453,0941, reduced the net
income of the beneficed clergy to 306,4161. A further deduc-
tion for payments to curates reduced this sum to 249.2084
or an average of 1721. 16s. 2d. for each beneficed clergyana
Taking the whole amount et the church property, and difd-
ing it by the whole number of clergymen, it yielded en an
rage of only 1411. 101.7 d. for each. Estimating the numbs
of Protestants as given in the last census, there war s case
gregation of 590 for each of those clergymen. But it wts
said, though the avenge income was small, great dispuitis
existed. In the 20 largest benefices in Ireland, the net
income was 14,1601., or an average of 7081. for each livied
Of thess, the largest (Templemore) wee a union of *ma 10
tones, where the VON income wee 3,3221., and the nett is
come little more than 1,6001., nine curates being emp
Of another benefice in Armagh, the gross income 116
was returned at 2,2681. the parish contained upward!
3,500 members of the established church ; and the deduction'
reduced the income to 6721. The living of Armagh ves
union of 9 parishes, containing 7,766 inhabitants: atm".
9 churches and 11 curates ; the gross income was 2,1871., bet
the nett income mu only a little over 6001. It war saiditse
in many livings there were small congregslimb
or none at all. This wu certainly an anon*
which it was desirable to avoid. This was en eel
from which England war not altogether exempt. It ell
an evil incident to the parochial system. There well 43
bens flees in Ireland in which there was no congregation be
longing to the established church in 1834. Of these, 2014
alread Ispeed to th Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and 21
▪ exiy uted. But some of these which Ind no congredgfral
in 1831 had congregations now, as Ardfest. But ruppeel
'hat it was desirable to abolish these benefices. whet "1".
it amount to ? Only to 1,2351. Supposing, even, that adf
abolished 100 benefices with the smallest cone. gatione,
would only have a sum of 9,4490. to devote to other P"
poses. (Hear, hear.) Next, with regard to the digaitail
of the established church in Ireland, comprehending
Pe"
archdeacons, and prebendaries, if they were to sus
those not baying the cure of souls, what would OS
the result ? Of the deans 8 only out of 139 had rert
deuces assigned to them. Of the prebendaries, out of 1 .
which w the number in Ireland, not one was a residestts
tight of his prebend ; and 105 out of 108 OCTET had asy infest
at all. The net value of their incomes was only 21,00.
year. Under the Church Temporalities Act 4,0001 ayes:
wee regarded as a reasonable income for a bishop and, Me:
rider Met that he war to hold the state and rank of a nob:.
man, and en maintain a certain degree of homy, be. d
not thi• k 4,0001. a year was too large an iscome for Ina
The judges of the country, who were not euhject to CO
eiPen.eO, received 3,5001. a year. The actual net income 1.!
the bishops of Ireland, not including the archbishoPen
n"w 40,5511. The income of the two archbisluels,M"'
15,9001. a year. Now, with regard to the er.M,
cies of the Irish church, it had been proved, "S,
dens.
the committee on ministers' money, that altbelri
there were 4,050 benefices in Ireland, there were 011 °,4
glehe houses, and that there were 99 tempsratv Ss":
worship. It was also proved that there were 51 ereuTi
cases of the necessi, of building churches—that 240 ap
sUo
t
cation. for enlarging churches had ben postponed, SI

meath

Osiory and Ferns