The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-02 00:00:00

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Lunatic Asylums:Act of the sth and 9th of Victoria, e. 126,
which threw great difficulties in the way of obtaining money
from the consolidated fund.
Sir 0. GREY said that representations had been made
from Wales complaining of difficulties arising from the con-
struction of a claure iu the act. The subject had been re-
hired to the law officers of the crown. He was not prepared
lie say that it would be necessary to bring in a bill on the
abject.
THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
Capt. POLHILL wished to know whether it was the
intention of the government to allow the Wellington Statue
to remain in its present position ? because, if allowed to re.
main, be thought the scaffolding ought to be removed.
Lord MORPETH said the got eroment had signified their
wish to the subcommittee that the statue should be removed
front the place which it now occupied. (Hear, hear.)
LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
On moving the order of the day for the second reading of
this bill,
Mr. %V. WILLIAMS said he did not rise to make the motion
of which he had given notice, that the Irish Poor Relief DUI
should take precedence of the other bills of the noble lord re-
lating to Ireland, for the purrose of throwing any impedi-
ments in the way of the measures of the government ; and if
he thought there was the least doubt of that part of the bill
which indemnified the Irish government for supenediog the
euthority of parliament, he would not for a moment delay
its pasting. He thought all permits were agreed that the
government were justified by the necessity of the ease in
taking upon themselves the reaponsibility of superseding the
authority of parliament. The honourable member for Lime-
rick said, indeed, they ought to he impeached for it; but that
languaee, he trusted, was used only in the heat of debate.
He (Mr. Williams) thought the poor law measure ought to
have precedence, because he regarded it so the Yee-cone by
which the dffieulties of Ireland might be removed with the
least possible expense, and as the only means of preventing
the recurrence of calamity in future. Other remedial mea-
sures would fail without an efficient psor law—they might
rup the sores, but thsv would not remove the disease.
believed that if the English poor law had been intro-
duced last session into Ireland, instead of the Labour
Bate Bill, they would have saved an expense of at
least 4,000,000 e, and the people, instead of being employed
ea useless works, would be preparing the ground for seed,
and thus le sing the foundation of a hope that the ensuing
harvest would produce sufficient for the maintenance of the
people, and that the people of England would not be called
ea
het year for the relief of similar distress. The noble
hid elated that 7,000,0001. would be required for the relief
of
Ireland before the Ist of August; but he was afraid whin
that time arrived the noble lord's eyes would be only opened
"the beginning of the end ;" and that he would be forced
to have recourse to other measures. The resources of Ire-
land were sufficient f. it the support other own poor. It was
he opinion of Sir R. Kane that Ireland was capable of
maintaining a population of 17,000,000. It appear front a
return which be moved for, that upwards of 7,000,0001. had
been received by Ireland for her exports of cattle, sheep,
and swine: and the value of her butter and other produce
goad not be less than 3,000,0001. lie should like to know
Into whose pockets this 10,000,0001. went before they were
called on to vote large sums taken from the hard-earned
memo of the people of England. (Hear.) He did not
approve of the poor law measure of the
.government,
which only efficiently provided for them destitute persona
who were permanently disabled from labour by bodily or
mental infirmity. lie thought the present measure suffi-
ciently provided for that close of destitute persons, because
he found that out of the 93,982 persons in the workhouses
in Ireland, on the 2nd of January of this year, 18,988 were
able-bodied, who, he could not imagine, would be
admitted to the exclusion of persons labouring under bodily
or mental infirmity. But, scanty as the provisions of the
bill were, he had doubts about its being carried. because it
was the only one of the government measures with which it
was reported the Irish members were dissatisfied;
and a distinguished member of the government in the
other house, the Marquis of Lansdowne, stated that
all were agreed that any measure in the nature
of what was called outdoor relief would be unsafe ; but that
provision would be made fur the relief of the infirm and
disabled connected with a provision for the relief of cases or
extreme destitution amounting to the hazard of death. That
the subject required cowed. ration, and would be postponed
till the other more pressing measures were passed, par- ,
tieularly as there were many persons who would be indis-
posed to voting large sums of money. for the relief of Ireland
unless permanent measures fur the improvement of the con- .
dition of the poor wore proposed. lie (Mr. Williams
therefore had doubts about the passing of the bill if the
other measures were carried first. lie wanted to know how
long government would persevere in inefficieut measures for
Ireland. Their former poor-law had been moat inadequate :
it provided workhouse accommodation for only 98,200 per-
sons, although their own commissioners told them that
2,33,5,000 persons were in a state of destitution for a part of •
the year. These workhouses cost 1,140,0001., which was not
likely ws be repaid.
Mr. °TON ELL.—It was being repaid.
Me. WILLIAMS said he was glad to bear that, but it
wound be the first public money lent to Ireland which had
boon repaid. (" Oh, oh," from the Irish members.) Money •
advanced for public works had been repaid, but he heard
leshmen say that es the poor-law was forced upon them
against !heir opinion, they did not expect the money ad-
vanced in order to put it an operation would be repaid.
The whole of the evils of Ireland arose Mum the
conduct of the landlords, their fault consisting chiefly
perhaps in neglect. Upwards of one million of the
people received not more than 2s. or 2s. 6el. per week
in wages, and until a pear law were forced upon Ireland
as it was in England in the time of Elizabeth,
the same restate could not be produced. Teem was nothing
in the character of the Time to prevent improvement, for in
Canada and in the Unite' States the most extrusive works
Were formed by the labour and industry of Irishmen. In
apportioning the poceoatee in Ireland they ought not to
exempt the middlemen and mortgagee,. During the last 40 -
years Ireland had paid, upon an average, only one-twelfth
of the taxation of the United Kingdom, the whole
amount of its taxation not being more than 4,1100,0001.
Scarcely any country in Europe was so lightly taxed.
If the noble lord would carry out messon s which
would remove the causes of distress and the heart-
leonine which now prevailed in Ireland, he would
tojoy a hate not eurpassed by that of say statesman of this
country. (Hear, bear.) The hon. member concluded by
moving/hat the second reading of the Poor Relief (Ireland)
Bill should have precedence of the Labouring Poor (Ireland) -
Bill. The amer.dment we. not seconded.
On Vie question being put,
Mr. L. OSBORNE said that be would take • brief
review of the measures submitted by the noble lord. He
must first notice. the 9th and 10th of Victoria. it was dill-
cult fee any member who had tern the pernicious operates
of the' act, to speak of it with moderation. It had broken
up -tee roads, impoverished the gentry, demoralised the
people, and burdened the finances of the counsry. It was
not his intention to attack the noble lord for passing that
measere. August legislation was always hasty. He blamed the
noble lord for euffenag five months to elapse without Mere-
Nine parliament, especially as Irish members could have
been much more easily spared some time hack than they
could be at present, when it was necessary to prepare for
this year's harvest. The noble lord said that the opinion of
the heel-lieutenant of Ireland was against were' ling parlia-
ment. Had the noble lord followed the lord-lieutenant's
I opinion in ovezothing, he believed labour would have been
I employed on rep reductive works, and this country would not
teen limy° been required to heir half the burden. (Hear,
•1 hear.) An attempt had been made to throw the blame o.
I unmet itable exoenditure on the landlords of !resod, but
the La t was tket they were entirely in the hands of the
Board of Wore,. with its 11,000 ofacen. It should be rem!-
' it-Med-that in the year 184.5 the landlords of Ireland were
Kellett upon to make great allowances in rent and large sub-
aceiptions is money, and that in 1846 they were required to
onakeaull greater exeotions with decreasing means, voting
enormous SUMS of money,de,sserelewa, ano at the same
time-pro mato public°. .Ahogether they were placed in unex-
ampled circumnances. The noble lord proposed that the
labour-rate set should be abolished. He (Mr. B. Osborne)
did not andenteed how the people were now to be got off
ithe roads. The Lest m buster of the crown was its the Mee
s itaatioa as thenuenager in" Tits Critic • " he had got all
his draentafis personee o n their kami, and he would
now be puseled tooet the am off; It seemed to sim that he
world be obliged to let th.llll go of kneeling. The fanners
who were toemploy these 600,060 persons were themselves
ouffering from famsee. .t more difficult task than that
assigned to Sic JohnO large yne mold not be imposed upon
acy man ; andao to the an, lertaking of the officers of the
corimishriat department, h. on. members had only to turn to
the bluebook to see tat thi les officers were resdy to under-
take anything which .the g overnsuent peeve-ed. (Hear,
heat.) If the peewee-M.4f the next harvest depended on th,i
l~enanat of 5 c foy seed,.theret was indeed little hope for
Iceland; it would not be no Te than twopence per am.
Ho came now to a aubject whi Ch he viewed with mingled
feelings of approbation andeloual Otv,ooo
:Ite tohrerecapipimimpriasi-e
tionmiaad.tedelleanathag
that there
in Ireland. The noble lord
had
wane lands in Ireland ; but Mr- ei neitlis had calculated that
of 6,200,000 acres of waste had, . only 3,655,000 acres were
improvable, of which upwards of : 10000,000 Were only re-
coverable all pasture for sheep. Now 's when he looked at the
great cost of reclaiming land of this • deecription, and when
he considered of how little value the ' land would be when
it was reclaimed, he must say that het Nought they ought to-
look with some caution at the appropria lion of a million of
money to attain a result w hich at the leen a, Mwered to be proble-
matical. Taking the reclaimable waste lane 'eat 4,600,000 acres,
be found that an expenditure of one milli° n over this surhea
was at about the rate of 4s. per acre, whil: vt the land itself;
when reclaimed, would not be worth much more than 2msd.
per AM. It slid appear to him, therefore, that a greater
bubble than this proposal to reclaim waste lands never was
submitted to parliament by any government! f" Hear," deny
the opposition.) And this subject naturally le d him to ano-
ther of still greater importance, namely, the ei Tact of shin
holdings in Ireland. Of all the astounding doeto 'lnc. he bed
ever heard enunciated in that house, the most artottadism
was that advanced by the noble lord, that small hot. Imp Mtn
not injurious, hut, an some eases, were actually be welds" to
the paupers! if the noble lord had ever conversed • for fives
minutes with his noble celleague, the secretary for foreign
affairs, upon this subject, that noble lord could hare Mem
him abundant cs idence, drone from the circumstances of hie
own estates, of the utter fallacy of this opinion. Fos • hie
own part be believed the small holdings to be at the rot 4of
half the evils of Ireland. But he pawed from this entsjeet' to
the important question of out-door relief. When th.fer
talked of outol ,or relief to the able-boduel they nmainelsoe
him of an eminent pathologist's demesephia a lie-
lera—" a disease commencing with deft." IN SW
same way, out-door relief to the glibasiss
Ireland souls be, in his opinion, i'
commencing with revolution." If once they
such a system. he wonted them that they w, stile all
last 'perk of iielependence existing in the bosom
Irish pageantry. And what would they do be the I
Why the renbil of Ireland 14311 estimated at 10&00
to teed 2,500,000 poor would evst 11,500,00

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