The Express.
London, England, 1853-08-09 00:00:00

THE HASTEAN QUESTION.

The Marquis of CLANKICARDE rose and alit:-111y
lords, it will be recollected that I took the liberty of putting
a question one day last week on the same subject as that
'which I have now to bring before your lordships, and that
I then received an answer from my noble friend the
Beerstary of State for Foreign Affairs, which I admitted at
the time w is, so far skit wont, quite sails( ictory. ((tear,
hear) But, my beds, I regret to say that I am com-
pelled to repeat the same question now, and in putting it,
to ask a second question of my noble friend in consequence
of inforniatinn which has been very recently received. Ac•
needing to that information which has appeared in the pub-
lie of this country, under date from Jassy, the
28th of July, it appease that tho government of the pro-
vince, of winch that city is the capital, has been entirely so-
penciled, and that a new government has been cstabl.•shed
by the authority of the Russian forms now in that country.
It appears that the Hospodar is allowed :o form part of this
new government, but that three assistants or commissioner,
have been appointed to act with him, and that this council

has the entire legislative and administrative power within
the province. And, I believe, the same ccurse bee been
pursued in Wallachia as in Moldavia, and that these two
provinces are now under • new administrative and legisla-
tive somnolent appointed by the Emperor of Russia. But,
my lords. that iv not all, for it appears that contributions
fur the support of the Russian forces are levied directly
from the inhabitants of the provinces ; and more than thst,
my lord,. it appears that certain Boyar& have been forcibly
compelled to enlist in the service of the Russian Emperor.
Thai, my lords, we Inn these two provinces, if these ea
cruets be correct—we have these two provinces in every
reep:ct under the Me and government of the Cear—the
administrative and legislative functions curled on by
Ite.s:en authority, and the taxation and resources of the
country managed, raised, and administered under the an-
tha..ty of the Russian Emperor and still more than that,
you bare the Russian armies forcibly recruited from then
who are the subjects of those provinces, and under the
direct protection of the Porte. (Hear, hear.) Now, my
lads, the first ques•ion I hare to asL my noble friend I',
whether he Ina received any information on this important
subject, either contradicting cc affirming what I have
stated' and the second question—and it is one which very
naturally cccurs upon the first, $3 naturally, that I cannot I
refrain from putting it, even though I may he considered
by my noble triend indiscreet in doing so—and I em men I
it is one which stupid every man in this country, and meat
certainty every member of either house of parliament, must
be most anxious to hen answered—(hear, hear)—the
second question is, if these facts are true end cannot be
contradicted, what has the goverment of this country done
thereupcs ? (Hear, hear.) This question, as your lord-
ships will pciceive, dividra itself late two parts—first
what beep t.cr Majesty's government done here
at home? and, secondly, what have they done by
thole functionaries abroad ? I have very little doubt

I consider, any proposition satisfactory if it be not for the
immediate and complete evacuation of the Turkish pro-
fvinces. (Much cheering) But under this, which I call
good news, there is news of a very different quality received
: to-day, for it Is therein stated that the Russian /lAMB,
: which commenced operations at Ismail, is in pompanos •of
ithe whole of the upper part of the river, and ocessima of 200
vessels, of which 150 are gun-boats. Thus while we ere
passing notei and sending couriers, we Dave not only the
occupation of the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia,
but the invasion of Bulgaria, and the whole of that great
river, the most important to the commerce of Europe, in
the poseessior. on both sides of a Russian force. These um
things which, while I am anxious to wait with the utmost
patience for the explanations it may be movenient to the
government to give, render it impossible for me to refrain
from putting the question of which I have given notice,
end to which I hope we may obtain a direct answer. I can
. assure your lordships that there is no man in either house of
parliament who has a more sincere ,honor and abhorrence
of war than I have, unless it be necessary. I do not say
justifiable, but unless it be absolutely necessary for the
maintenance of the honour and character, and especially for
the dignity of the country. (Hear, hear.) But at the same
time I do say that if we are to sacrifice our honour and
character awl our dignity as a nation when they are in-
volved, in the face of Europe—then I say the whole
material interest of the country must suffer. (Hear, hear.)
It is for this reason, my lords, that I base taken the
liberty of making this statement before asking the questions
which I am now u'sout to put to my noble friend. Those ques-
tions are, first, I wish to know once more whether my noble
friend has any official authentic information in reference to
the statement I have made of the preceedings of the Rus-
sian authorities in the Danubian prosiness' of Turkey ; and
if that is the case, what steps have been taken by the Bri-
tish government in c insequence of such proceedings.
The Earl of CLARENDON—My lords, I am afraid it
will not be is my power to give my noble friend any answer
materially different from that which I gave five days ago in
reply to the same question. I agree entirely now, as I did
last week, in everything that has lailen from my noble
friend with respect to the consequences that would arise,
bath to Turkey and to Europe, floes any permanent occu-
pation, or anything resembling a permanent occupation, of
the Principalities by Russia. (Hear, hear.) But I must
again inform my noble friend that we have no (Alicia! in-

as to the latter point ; and I hope I shall be told that there
is very little reason to doubt that, at the moment when I
have now the honour of addressing your lordships, the com-
bined fleets are at last before Constantinople, on the other
aide of the Dardanelles. (Cheers.) I cannot believe it pos-
sible th►t the unbasseders of France and England should
have had nay restrictions imposed by their respective go.
cerement' on their dLoretion in regard to the directions
they may think it necessary to give to the admiral corn.
mandiag the combined force, nor can I doubt for an in-
stant that my nob!, friend and relative at Constantinople
will have thought it right to hesitate in acting with that
spirit and energy becoming the representative of this
great nanny. (Hear, hear.) If I ask, then, my
lords, what has been done at home, I hope end
expect that I shall be told that either long before
this intelligence was received in this country, Or, at all
events, since it was received, there has been, not a mere re-
quest for explanation, but a categorical demand that the
Danubian Principalities shall be immediately evacuated by
the Russian forces. (Loud cheers.) For, I say, if we have
undettoken and advised the Porte, so that the Porte has
held back her arm, and not attempted to defend her terri-
tory, we had made ourselves parties to these transaction,
as well by what is doing now as by what has been done 1
under former treaties—(hear, bear)—and I cannot believe,
not will I allow myself to believe, that these statements that
have arrived are in all respects true, because there is no ea-
plaining away what is known to be the feet
—there can be no doubt whatever, if the statements re-
ported be true,—that Ramis, in assuming the government
of than two Principalities, and in taking peesesslma of the
territory in question, has committed an aggreseioa upon
Turkey, in utter contradiction of the circulars voluntarily
Wind by her to the courts of Europe on the subject, as
well as of the manifestoes sued by the Ruth= General
an entering the provinces. (Hear, heat.) I am not, how-
ever, my lords, going to discuss that matter now, of which
notice has beta given for • discussion on a future evening,
but I most say I cannot doubt that the energetic steps I
have referred to must have been taken, beesuse what is
this act, but the atroageat possible proceeding of war en
the part of Russia? (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") We
were told when the Russian forces entered these province,
that it we, not to make war upon Turkey. Why, what I
have described is heel! war. (Hear, hear.) It is either
ern or piracy ; and if it is not war it is piney. (Loud
sheen.) And are we in this position that we ate to seller
war to be waged upon our ally upon such pretences as are
here put forward, or are we to stand by and
au this set of violence eosamitted upon Turkey
without interfering ? If we are to be told that
it is a question of treaty whether the fleet shall
be reside or cystoids the Dardanelles, I say there is cow such
a state of war se abolishes all treaties iso fax as Russia and
Turkey are noutened. (Hear, hear.) There does not ezist
a single treaty binding on Turkey after the aggression
which has been perpetrated upon her by Runin. There
can be no lawn whatever, thes, for not acting. (Hear,
hear.) And what is the state of things told by the answers
we have received from the government in either house of ;
parliament ? That we have sent note,. Aye, but you have !
sent other notes, and we were tell there was anether note
to be sent from Vienna last Sunday or Monday ; but while
you are sending notes the Russian forces ate &dame:cc
and, beyond the Principalities I have named, are taking
possession of another territory. (Hear, hear.) It
may be said, " Good :news hat been rae:ved,
and appears in the papers of to-dry," and I shall
be told probably if that news is true, that tee proposal
which has been sent from Vienna has been received favour-
ably at St. Petersburg. (Hear, hear.) But we do not,
knew what that propoeal is, and before you can esTect that
the fact of its acceptance can give unqualified satisfaction,
we must know what is the nature of the proper:A which
has been made. (Haar, hear.) It is clear, bowers r, that
it is not the proposal which was alluded to list week in the
House of Commons, for we wets then told 11. e 1112,
senger would leave Vienna with a proposal from Et;:snil
and France on the Sunday or Monday, whereas this news
dates from St. Petersburg on the Sal igwant, end it -a ut-
terly impossible that having Vienna on the ;et, it could
hero reached St. Petersburg en the Ird. Thatfore
this news mast elate to some previous Austrien prortsition-
We do not know, thee, what the proposal which has been
aocepted is. But I say, after what has (*tinsel, your lord-
ships' boom will not consider, and the country sr:a not

rity in India having been completed according to law, the
said commissioners shall have directed that such letter so
finally approved by them shall be transmitted forthwith,
and each letter shall not be signed as hereinbefore enacted
within the spate of seven days, or having been signed shall
net have been transmitted to India by the first mail 'there-
after, it shall be lawfuljor the said matmisaionm to Bien the
same, sad such letter 'so signed shall be transmitted to India
by the said commisaioners' and shall have the ease force
and effect as if it bad been signed by the requisite number
of directors as hereinbefore enacted.'

Earl ORANVILLE said that the proposed clause would
not meet the ease cited by the noble earl, as the non-trans-
mission not having been discovered no step could be taken.
Lord NIONTEAGLE supported the clause.
The Duke of ARGYLL suggested a verbal alteration,
which was adopted, sad the clause as amended was
agreed to.
On clause 3,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH moved the insertion of
the following words :—.' Page 2, lines 34, 33. Omit the
words ' before the said second Wednesday in April,' and
insert' after the lsat Wednesday in the month of March.'"
11e said his object was to withhold any information as to
the government nominees until the whole of the elected
fifteen had been appointed.
The amendment, after a short discussion, was withdrawn.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH then proposed another
amendment, providing that governors of provinces who
had returned should not be excluded from the direction.
As it stood at present, ten years' service was a necessary
qualification ; and this would practically exclude the map-'
city of the persons he had mentioned.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the clause agreed to.
Oa clause 4,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he wished to make
the election of 15 directors from the present court com-
pulsory, which it was not as the bill stood, and with this
view he proposed to amend the clause. The greatest con-
fusion would be created if the directors should refuse to
exercise their powers in the manner contemplated.
The amendment was withdrawn, and clauses 4 and 5
were agreed to.
Ou clause 6, which related to the constituency—
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said—Believing the
present constituency to be totally unfit to exercise its fume.
tions, ho would propose to add to it all retired officers who
had served 20 years in India.
The amendment was withdrawn.

The elawc was he; agreed
Oa clause 13, which sets out the oath to be taken by the
directors,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUOII found fault with the
vague and slovenly manner in which the clause was drawn
up. The terms of the oath made the directors swear that
they would be faithful to the company, meaning, of course,
themselves, instead of to the mown, whose trustees they ac.
tually were, but as he wished to bring the directors to
a knowledge of their real position heproposed to substitute
an entirely different oath.
The amendment was ultimately negatived without divi-
sion and the clause agreed to.
On clause 22 being read,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought the Governor-
General ought to have the power of placing a military man
upon the council. He 'therefore urged that the word
civil" should be omitted.

formation—no official information of the character my
noble friend has brought before your lordships—l will
not certainly deny that many of the event' to which he
ha alluded may not have been committed by the Russian
government—(loot I must at the lime time add that I
derive my information merely from the same sources as my
noble fncnJ)-1 will not deny that there has been a sort of
a committee of government formed for carrying on the
government of the principalities together with the Hos-
podus, but we have no official information whatever of
that kind. And lam sure my noble friend will agree, and
your lordships will be of opinion that for the government
to proceed to act upon newspaper reports as they arrive
would be the height of rashness. My noble friend h.as sa'd
that he believes the Danube is crossed and that Bulgaria is
actually entered by Russia. I have no reason to believe—
bet the contrary, (or I have this afternoon received letters
from Galatz of the 23th ult., in which no allusion is made
to that circumstance, though nine is certainly some
allusion to what I will not more particularly ad.
were here in your lordships' house as to the
few gun-boats that were brought down the river and of the
bellicose character of the Russian proceedings. We have
likewise communications from Ivry to the 27th, and from
Bucharest to the 23th, and in neither of thew is there any
mention of this new form of government being established.
It is true it is stated in these communications that the
presence of the Russian troops has led to the infliction of
much hard•hip upon the inhabitants, and that the
peasants are made to do a certain amount of work and
are withdrawn from their agricultural operations, but
there is no mention of any recruiting having taken
place or of any forced contributions, while there
is mention of a large quantity of provisions having
been sent from B 'seeable, which is a part of the Russian
territory, for the use of the Russian troops in the princi-
palities. Therefore I say, and I em sure your lordships
will agree with me, that far the government to ant upset
such information as we see in the newspapers—
and some of the accounts which we have seen since
the question was brought forward last week have
been 'leerily proved to be incorrect—l say for
the government to act upon such reports would
be the height of rashness. (Hear, heir.) I assure
my noble friend that he cannot exceed me, first is
his abhorrence of war, and next in his dean ice
peace, provided that peace be an honourable penes,
(cheers)—and I am sure n 7 other peace can tend to the
permanent interests of this country or receive the support
or sanction of this great nation. (Hear, hear.) But, my
lords, at the point at which we have arrived in these nego-
tiation', and which I do see reason to hope are tending to
bring about a peaceful solution of the difficulty, I am quite
sure you will concur with me that exciting debates in
either house of parliament at this moment are not likely to
aid in produciug that peace, and that particular character
of peace, which alone can be permanently beneficial to this
country. (Cheers.) I can further inform my noble friend
that the negotiations appear to me to be assuming that
character which we all of us must desire. (Hear,
hear.) And, I may add, that the question hes
not been left as ono simply between Russia and the
Porte, it has not been left as a question between England
and France. united closely though they are for the support
of the Porte—(hear, hear)—but it has assumed a European
character ; that is, in all these proceedings net only the
Porte, but Austria, Prussia, England, and France, alt are
acting cordially together in order to chef& designs which
they consider inconsistent with the b.lance of power, or HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, AUO. S.
with those territorial limits which have been established by The SPZAILIIR took the chair shortly after 12 o'clock.
various treaties. (Hear, hear.) This, then, is a state of PRIVATE BUSINESS.
thing which I say is satisfactory to your lordships and to The Lords' amendments to the Bayswater, Paddington,
sad Holborn-bridge Railway Bill were considered and
ebe errantry, because it is likely to lead to • satisfactory and agreed to.
a lasting peace. (Hear, hear.) I hope your lordships The following estate bills were considered and ordered to
I will not press me to enter further into details as to the be read a third time : Chaytor's Estate ; Duke of Cleve-
state of the negotiations now pending between the courts of land's (lians) Estate; Sunderland Town Moor and Free-
m
Vienna and St. Petersburgb, further tban to say that no-
en's Orplum Asylum; Trolley's Estate ; and Pidgeley's
thing has been done at Vienna, except with the full con- lastate; Bills'
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
' sent of the English and French g ents, and to assure METROPOLITAN SEWERS.
your lordships once more that the English and French On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
governments will consent to no arrangement except that Sir J. V. SHELLEY complained of the course that was
which will secure the independence of Turkey. (Cheers.) being taken with regard to the Metropolitan Sewers Acts
The Earl of ALBEMARLE trusted that under the Contar. uanceßill._
M nWILSOi aaid it was absolutely im ible that mea-
present circumstances of the session the noble earl would sures of this nature could be taken until the estimates had
not, on some future day, refrain to give the country been disposed of.
some idea of what is to be the policy of her Majesty's minis- Col. SIBTHORP remarked that they were now called
upon to vote away largehsums of mo
urylly, and vet there was
ten in their negotiations with the Russian government—
rochm.mosse, panrotaesl
(cheers)—and that he would tell their lordships and the againstultrisr ittreatnniteonat oft ethTetegouse ofe
de-
country a little more precisely than he had yet done, that it elated that it was most unbecoming to the ministry.
was to be a sine pus non in any negotiations, that Russia (Hear, hear.)
should evacuate, and speedily evacuate, the Danubian pro- After a conversation, the house went into a committee of
' Time. (Loud cheers.) Anything like a permanent occu- supply'
UPPLY.
potion would be an appropriation of ;those provinces., and On the question that 60 S,OOOl. be voted to her Majesty for
he did not think the country would be satisfied with any- civil service contingencies,
thing less than their immediate evacuation, and he con. Mr. HUME complained of on item of 3W. In the vote
ceived the noble earl owed it to the country to state that the pagrfo.,;vlhe PalliseridofthGeeitelawnaess alairhth.rheCo.; f
en 176.- .
policy of her Majesty's government was to insist upon the consequence of a communication am di:Foreign-edge Ite
speedy restoration of those provinces to their lawful sove- the Treasury. The general was brought over in a ship-of-
reign.—(Cheers.) war, and it was always usual in such cases to pay the ex-
The Earl of CLARENDON—I should be sorry that any penes out of the Treasury.
misunderstanding should go abroad, even for a single day, e Mr.
ileiliLeTeLthfoarht this was carrying civility to an
as to my meaning in regard to the occupation of these nr
lesultory discussion followed on several items of the
Danubian provinces, and I have therefore no hesitation in vote.
now informing the noble earl, without waiting (or any du- The vote was then agreed to.
cussion upon the subject, that I look upon the immediate On the vote of 611071. for commissariat department,
and complete evacuation of the principalities by the Russian thlfrv.olt:iflrriomE saidehe li,essdidinnotrlcoemspolinrof the
o increase
he
force as a Pile gun non in any agreement or in any neva- ; wanted to know why the reforms)
recommendedo provisions
but
elation' whatever. (Considerable cheerios from both tides mittee up stain had not been carried out ? Ile did not see
of the house.) I why the number of officers should not be reduced. The
The Earl of ELLENBOROLGII said it was reported present number was excessive ; for instance, in Canada.
Lord Grey's letter had distinctly promised a reduction ;
i that the government of Russia had demon led a large sum
and h t asked why the vote had not been re-arranged.
lof money from Persia, intimating that they would take Mr. J. WILSON answered that increase is the vote was
1 a province as part payment. He wished to know if that attributable to the prices of provisions. Reductions which
was true ? were contemplated could not be included in this year's esti-
The Earl of CLARENDON—I have seen this report, mv.t.ellyeottehowtet tram rteoductions were not to be anticipated.
and have taken the best means I could of verifying the The veto 0f45,129: tea 'half.pay and pensions in the -
Irecta, but I Lave as yet no official information on the sub- misaariat department was agreed to.
, jut ; and so far as we can draw an inference from the in- On the vote of 3,6001. for jurtion of the salary of Governor
formation we have received, 1 should say no such Mecum- I of Jamaica,
stance bee occurred. (Hear, hear.)
1 Mr. HUME said he hoped that when this present crisis
- in Jamaica was rinsed, we should discontinue this piece-
The Liberated Africans Bill, the Lend Tax Redemption meal method of voting the expense of the government of
I
n:;i, the Newspaper Stamp Dsties bill, and the Conseil- Jamaica, and came to !ODIC permanent conclusions. lie
• dated Annuities (Ireland) 11:11 were severally rsad a second wanted to see the day when all the colonies would pay for
time. themselves in these reneets.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. The vote was agreed to.
The house then went into committee on this bed. On the vote of 50,0001. for the volunteer (naval) force,
On clause 1, Sir J. GRAHAM Paid that he did not expect to be able
The Earl of ALBEMARLE calm laiued of the ',men- to obtain more than 5,000 or 6,000 men in the present linen-
Sine character of the government of Madras and Bombay Mal year ; and he therefore now only asked for half the
se compared with the north-western province, and stag• whole sum which would be required.
misted that the governor and council of these two pun- After some slight discussion the vote was agreed to.
dencies should be abolished, and a lieutenant-governor sub- Oa the vote of 8.35,212/., for Post-office packet service—
' stituted. Mr. HUMS asked what had been the result of the in-
The clause was agreed to. quiry which had been going on ? Ile was convinced these
The second clause basisa been agreed to. soma for packet-service were too large, and slid more harm
The Earl of ELLENBOROUG II propene' to add imme- than good to communication.
diatcly after the following donee . 0 Provided, that in Mr. COWPER said that the whole subject had been in-
ever7 case in which all the proceedings between the Court quired into, and all the materials for coming to a decision
of Directors and the Commissioners for the Affairs of India had been reported by the committee to tho house.
with respect to soy letter proposed to be sent to any autho- Mr. F. DUNDAS said he hoped the government would

After a conversation the word was struck out, and the
clause as amended was ordered to stand part of the bill.
On clause 23, appointing the quorum of the council for
legislative business, and directing that the vice-president
appointed by the Governor-General shall preside in the ab-
sence of the Governor-General,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH moved an amendment
providing that in the absence of the vice-president the senior
ordinary member of the council shall preside.
Agreed to.

'Die Earl of ELLENBOROI:Off moved to reduce the
quorum from seven to six, sad to strike cut the words
which required the presence of the chief justice of the
Supreme Court.
Altar a few words from Earl GRANVILLE and the Earl of
11-suaowny,

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause as amended
was added to the bill.

Clause 24 was also affirmed, and clause 21 was agreed W.
Clauses 27, 28, and 29 were agreed to without discussion.
Clause 30.—Appointment of Commander-in-Chief.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUR proposed that the coin-
mani.er4u-Cliief should be ex officio member of the council,
the same to apply to the presidencies.
The Earl of GRANVILLE objected to tho proposition,
which was withdrawn, and the clause agreed to.
Claus,. 38, which referred to the admission of candidates
to Haileybury, led to some discussion, in which Lord
Wharncliffe, the Earl of Ellenborougb, and Lord Mont-
eagle took part, and in which Earl Granville defended the
proposed arrangement.
Clauses 38 and 37 were then agreed to.
Oa clause 38,
The Earl of ALBEMARLE advocated greater freedom
in the admission of native, into the civil service.

The Earl of lIAIIIIOWBY thought that arrangements
should he made in India for enabling natives to qualify for
the civil service by passing on examination there, instead of
having to come to England.
Lord BIONTEAGGE feared that the regulations of
llaileybury would not be brought sufficiently under the
control of parliament.
Clause 38 was agreed to.
Lord BIONTEAOLE moved the insertion of a clause in
this part of the bill, for the purpose of throwing the whole
of the civil service of India open to the natives, irrespective
of caste, colour, or religion.
The clause was negatived without a division.
On clause 44, " the salt clause,"
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he viewed this
clause as an unwarrantable interference with the financial
affairs and arrangements of India, and of the government
was not prepared to move its omission, the clause not being
their own, but having been introduced in spite of them,
ho at least was. He therefore moved that the clause be
struck out of the bill.

The Earl of ALBEMARLE gaits agreed with the noble
earl in the impropriety of interfering with the internal
taxation of the country, but he viewed this as an eseep-
Lions' ease.

_____
The clause was then negatived without a division.
The remaining clauses were then agreed to, end the house
resumed.

The Crime and Outrage (Ireland) Bill vas paned through
co:mine.

The Turnpike Acts Continuance (Ireland) Bill mu read
a amino time.

The other bills on the paper were) advanced a stage, and
their lordships adjourned at a few minutes after half-put
twelve.

Iloth ee the Post•office services on the short horn.' routes.
l The delay in the mails to Scotland was sometimes very
serious.
Mr. J. WILSON promised that the point should have
attention.
The vote was then agreed to.
Oa the vote of 200,00 W. for defrayment of the expenses
of the Biffir war.
Mr. ADDERLEY congratulated the house that this was
the last vote for this war, but he thought that opportunity
should be taken by the government to offer some explana-
tions as to how matters stood in Kafiri,.
Mr. P. PEEL believed that throughout the colony the
constitution lately sent out had been received with
feelings of gratitude. With regard to the cession of terri-
tory, he believed that it was no new policy that was now
being adopted by the government, but that former Secreta-
ries of Stall for the Colonies had been prepared to follow a
like course, had circumstances permitted. Her Majesty's
ministers were of opinion that, where practicable, instead of
extending, they ought to contract the limits of their
possessions in South Africa. The chief difficulties in
connexion with this colony had arisen from the enor-
mous extent of frontier, and the necessity of providing fur its
defence, and of all policies which had been followed of late,
none, in his opinion, had been more questionable than the
accession of territory which from time to time had been
made. Sir Harry Smith had greatly extended one terri-
tory. That portion of it which was under discussion had
been annexed by Sir 11. Smith in compliance with what he
believed to be the wishes of the inhabitants. During the
whole of tho Ave years which had elapsed since its annexa-
tion it had been found no accession of strength to this coun-
try ; on the contrary, during the last Kaffir war it was a
source of constant annoyance and anxiety both to Sir Harry
Smith and Major-General Cathcart. Of course, in carrying
out a policy of cession like that under consideration u ea-
, riety of circumstances ought to be taken into
1 consideration which could only be justly weighed
by Fawns on the spot. Hence the government
had sent out Sir G. Clerk with general rather
than detailed instructions. He (Mr. Peel) certainly did
not understand by what process of reasoning the bun. gen-
tleman came to the conclusion that it would be lees inex-
pensive to retain this territory than to give it up. Com-
pensation might perhaps be demanded -and obtained in
some few exceptional cases; but it would of course be the
duty of government to take care that the cession of territory
did not interfere with the titles of those holding lands
therein ; and If this were attended to, but very few cases
calling for compensation could arise. He did not hesitate
to say that the expenditure of blood and of treasure which
had taken place in this colony calved for some arrangement
whereby the burden might be thrown upon the colonists.
(Hear.) Judging from the tenor of the hon. gentleman's
(Mr. Addcrley's) speech, he seemed favourable to the
immediate withdrawal of British troops. To take such a
mune would but be to repeat the error of the former war ;
for it was currently believed amongst thOse best able to
judge, that hai not England withdrawn her troops so has
tily upon that occasion the necessity for the last war would
never have arisen. In conclusion, he would assure the hon.

gentleman that every endeavour was being used by her
Majesty's government to lemur the expense connected with ,
the colony. (Hear, hear.)
Sir DE L. EVANS could not concur with the hon. mem-
ber opposite (Mr. Adderley) sc his views with respect to
the cession of the Orange River settlement. That measure
ought to be insisted upon.
Me. V. SMITH protested against the idea that this
would be the last vote upon the question of the Kettle war.
(Hear, bear.) lie believed that still more territory must
be ceded.
Mr. ADDERLEY wished to know whether the aban-
donment of the Orange River territory would be so com-
plete that the Dutch wind resume possession of it?
Mr. F. PEEL could not at once answer that question.
The vote was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress and the house
resumed.
PLACES OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP REGISTRA-
TION DILL.
The farther consideration of this bill was postponed to
that day three months.
The house adjourned at 4 o'clock.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
RUSSIA AND TURKEY.
Sir J. WALMSLEY—The question I am about to put
to the noble lord the member for the City of London, and
of which I have given him notice, is ono in which the
country generally—and especially the mercantile interests—
, are deeply concerned. The dignity and responsibility of
the House of Commons appear to me to be equally inte-
rested in the reply. I beg to ask the noble lord whether
her Majesty's government will, previous to the prorogation
of parliament, submit to the House of Commons a state-
ment of the existing relations between this country, Tut-
key, and Russia, touching the aggressive attitude sosumed
by Russia towards the Sublime l'orte ; and whether the
government will appropriate a day, previous to the rising of
parliament, for the expression of the opinions of the House
of Commons on this important qutstion ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—In answer to the hon. member, I
have to say, with respect to the first question, that before
the prorogation of parliament I will give such information
with respect to the relations between Russia and Turkey
as shall be censistent with my public duty. (Hear, hear.)
With respect to the second question. I cannot say that I
think it would be advisable for the public interest, in the
present state of the negotiations, that there should be any
day named for a general discussion of the subject. (Hear.)
Lord D. nuauf—As the noble lord states that he
will give all the information in his power, is he able to in-
form the house whether there is any truth in the rumours
which have been circulated in the papers to-day, of a most
important character,—namely, that the Emperor of Russia
has agreed to: certain proposals which have been submitted
to him by the different Powers of Europe for the adjust-
ment of the differences between Russia and Turkey ; and
whether we are now to a solution of the question
than we were before ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—In answer to the question of my
noble friend, I have to say, that there is a foundation for
the rumours to which he alluded. (Hear.) A telegraphic
despatch has been received from her Majesty's minister
at Vienna, which is of a satisfactory nature. (Cheers.) I
should say, in reference to the answer expected in reply to
the first proposal agreed to at Vienna, that the messenger
who was to go to Constantinople, who I stated was to leave
Vienna on the 31st ult, and who it was intended should
leave on that day, did not leave until the 2nd of August.
so that the reply front Constantinople cannot be expected to
be received so soon.
Sir DE L. EVANS hoped that the information the
noble lord had promised to communicate before the rising
of the house, would not be communicated at such a time
as to prevent members expressing their opinion on the
subject.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I beg to explain that what I said
was—that I should give such information as it was in my
power, consistently with my public duty, to give ; and I
think it will be more satisfactory that I should give that
I information at the latest moment before the prorogation of
I parliament.
Mr. LAYARD, having placed a motion on the paper on
the subject, begged to ask the noble lord whether he in-
tended that there should be a discussion or not ?

for independent Members to bring forward motions. The
convent question stood for Wednesday next, and it would
not be possible to discuss it fully, and take the sense of
the home on it without the full day. He could not but re-
pressione present proceedt
ot the house, and be should there-
fore divide easiest the motion.
Mr. SPOONER would rather have the whole question
postponed than brought on at three o'clock on Wednesday.
If they entered at 12 o'clock upon the debate, not in the
spirit of delay but of discussion, he thought they might
bring it to a conclusion on Wednesday. He could not but
look upon tkis motion of the noble lord as an attempt to stop
discussion which he could not meet, and one for which the
country was crying out. Tuis was a psrahel to the conduct
of the noble lord in refusing to admit of inquiry into Roman
catholic charitable trusts, but quite inconsistent with his
well remembered and well written Durham letter. lie
wished the noble lord would show to which he was sincere.
Mr. LUCAS rose merely lest it should be thought that
he shrank from a discussion. As far as he was personally
concerned he was not willing that the discussion should
come on, because he was moat anxious to call the hon.
member for Warwickshire to account for statements made
is his speech on a former occasion, and which he would
wish to call upon him to prove if he thought that anything
practical could result from the discussion at so lat^ a
period.
Mr. MAGUIRE wished even for the discussion on Wed-
nesday, hi:close he desired to disprove, by facts, the mon-
strous statements which had been b:ought forward on this
subject.
The house divided—
For the motion lO5
Against • 52-53
RUSSIA AND TURKEY.
Mr. DISRAELI—I wish to make an inquiry of the
noble lord, with regard to a question which I understand
has been adverted to in the early part of the evening,
namely, as to an account which has been received of the
acceptance by the Emperor of Russia of certain propositions
presented to him, by what I may call the congress of the
great powers sitting at Vienna. I understand the noble
lord has said there would be no presentation of papers or
any day appointed for discussing this important question,
and considering the month and the day of the month, I am
not at all surprised that the noble lord indulged in these
observations. But what I wish to know is whether with
respect to this particular circumstance there is any objection
to state to the house the nature of those propositions which
have been accepted by the Emperor of Russia.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I cannot state at present the pro-
positions which have been made to the Emperor of Russia.
I have already stated in answer to • question put to me that
before the prorogation of parliament I would give all the
information which is consistent with my duty to the govern-
ment. What that information may be I will not anticipate,
• - -

but 1 shall certainly give ax much as is in my power to give
coneistently with the public interests. (Cheers.)
SUPPLY—COMMITTEE.
The house went into committee of supply.
On the vote of 407,667/. for government ptirons and con-
vict establishments at home,
Mr. HUME inquired whether the house would hear from
the government any general plan of secondary punish-
ments ?
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the discussion of the subject
had better be deterred until the second reading of the Trans-
portation Bill, to-morrow (this day).
The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. S. HERBERT then rose to move the vote for the
militia. Ile thought he should !asst coxsult the convenience
of the house by confining himself to &few observations on the
' vote.. The number of men now enrolled was 62,000,
cording to the last returns, hut the whole amount of the
estimate taken was term than was required, but it would
be necessary to meet any extra allowance, and all contin-
' gencies. The whole amount was not applied to raising and
training the militia, but there must be a deduction of
100,00u1. for the old militia staff and the non-effectives,
who were gradually dying off. Ile must take this oppor-
tunity of congratulating the right hon. gentleman opposite
(Mr. Walpole) for the success which had attended his
measures in the raising of the men and as regarded their
t tficiency ; the officers by wham they had been inspected
had been surprised at the degree of efficiency
they had attained during their period of training. Above
all it was gratifying to remark on the uniform good conduct
of such large bodies of men, at an ago when any congrega-
tions of men might be expected to tend to disturbances ;
but on the contrary, in all parts of the country, the civil au-
thorities bore testimony to their excellent conduct. He
also wished to thank the colonels and other officers em-
ployed in raising and training the men, fur the manner in
which they performed their duties.
On the vote of 486,415/. for the militia,
After a few words from Colonel Ste none,
Mr. BRIGHT said that he should not divide against
the vote, but he was so convinced of the folly of the course
they were now pursuing that he would take this the last
opportunity of raising his voice against it. He wished to
ask the right hon. gentleman whether he intended to raise
the full number of militia?
Mr. S. HERBERT said that in the first place the lion.
gentleman said that militiant u became soldiers after 21
days' training. lie (Mr. Herbert) had every disposition to
give credit to the militia force, but it could not be supposed
that a militiaman after one training was equal to a soldier
of the regular army. The militiamen were trained more
quickly as they took more pleasure in the exercise
and devoted themselves more constantly to their drill.
The hon. gentleman asked whether the 80,000 men were to
be raised. The whole of them were taken for on the esti-
mate, but there were deductions on it, and he thought
about 74,000 men would be raised if the recruiting went on
as rapidly as it was doing now. He did not assent to the
proposition that the interchange of convivialities between
the two nations, however it might tend to promote a good
feeling, which he hoped would long continue, was a reason
for reducing our force, for arrt aments could net be allowed
to go up and down from time to time, but the government
must always present a certain force to the house which they
thought necessary to be kept up. The house had expressed
its opinion with regard to the number of the militia. The
expense, too, would not be much diminished by
disbanding the militia for they were engaged for five year:
to pay 11. a year bounty. If the expense had somewhat
exceeded what the right hon. gent. (Mr. Walpole) had
anticipated it was because this beteg the first year that the
militia was raised, they had been made to have 28 days
training, instead of 21, which the right hon. gent. had not
calculated on, and there were additional expenses and al-
lowances which had not been foreseen. The whole vote
was not for raising and training the men, but a part of it
was for nneffectives.
Mr. BRIGHT said the vote was 100,0001. more than
last year, and it would, he supposed, be more next
year, as that 200,0001. would be added to the
expenditure. Was it intended to fill up the number of
men to 80,000 this year ?
Mr. S. HERBERT said the number to be raised last
year was 50,000, and this year 30,000. It was only pro-
posed to raise 25,000 this year.
Mr. HUME admitted that the militia was rather popular
than not with the country ; and as he recognised that fact,
he was not now offering a very stringent opposition. But
he wished it to be remembered that we had increased all our
forces. We had more ships, and the committee had that
day voted 50,0001. (which was to be repeated next year) for
the volunteer forces. And in proportion to population
England sustained a larger army than France. All this
was very absurd.
The vote was agreed to—thus concluding the erduous
labours of committee of supply.
The CHAIIItAN reported the resolutions amid cheers.

Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that, so far as WAYS AND MEANS.—THE DUTY ON MALT.
the government were concerned, it was not their opinion Oa the question that the Speaker leave the chair, to go
that it was desirable that there should be such a discus- into committee of ways and means,
Mr. E. BALL, in a brief speech, moved " that in the
sion. opinion of the house the duty on malt operates most inju-
THE NAVAL DEMONSTRATION AT SPITHEAD. riously to the community at large ; that it greatly tends to
Mr. OLIVEIRA wished to know what accommodation increase the cost of animal and cereal food; that it promotes '
had been made for the members of that house to witness drunkenness, by withholding beer from the labourer in his
the naval evolutions at Spithead on Thursday. He hoped work and driving him to the public house ; and that there-
accommodation would be provided to enable them to take fore it is expedient that the excise regulations relative to 1
their ladies with them. (Hear, hear.) malt be relaxed."
Sir J. GRAHAM amid the question was hardly a par- Mr. SPOONER seconded the motion.
liamentary one, bat perhaps the house would pardon him if Mr. CAYLBY concurred in the motion, but at that late
he gave the best information in his power. (Hear, hear.) period of the session he would only ask the Chancellor of '
He had received her Majesty's commands to place at the the Exchequer to give a pledge that he would consider the I
disposal of each of the two houses of parliament a ship of subject in the recess. (Ltughter.)
war for that occasion; and, in obedience to those commands, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had not
seeing that that house had a larger number of members the slightest intention to endeavour to answer the hon. gen-
than the other, the ship placed at the disposal of the House tleman who had made this motion, for this reason, among
of Lords was one of 950 tone, and about 280 horses power; others, that be bed answered the hon. gentleman by anti-
that et the disposal of the House of Comm°s was nearly cipation. (It will be remembered that a month ego Mr.
1,200 tens, and about 600 horses power. (Hear, hear.) Ball, attempting a ruse, made his motion without a speech,
Considering the large number composing the Beet (about
and was beaten by Mr. Gladstone's successful speaking
30 ships of war) there would be very few ships at disposal.
against time.) He (Mr. Gladstone) thought it very bad ,
The ship placed at the disposal of that house would be taste, u a general rule, for • member to praise
capable of accommodating about 203. If that were thought
his own speeches • but he thought he had eminent reasons ,
Inadequate, members who wished to be present would to be satisfied with the results of the speech which, on the
be kind enough to put down their names, and if evio occasion, he bad addressed to the house on this
by to-morrow at four o'clock it appeared that subjects (Laughter.) He (Mr. 'Gladstone) gave, however,
• larger number wished to attend, he would
unhesitatingly, the promise solicited from him by the hon.
endeavour to make the necessary arrangements. The hon. member for the North Riding. (Cheers.)
member would see that it would hardly be possible to find
Mr. SPOONER was disgusted at so important a question
accommodation for ladies. He feared there would be being disposed of with such levity. (Ironical cheers.) Malt
greater thtticulty in obtaining conveyanceto Portsmouth was as essential for the manufacturers of wheat as was
than in obtaining places in the ships-of-war there. Ile
the raw material to the manufacturer of any manufactured
had made arrangements for a special train—he was almost article. He thought his bon. friend (Mr. Ball) was per-
afraid to state at how early an hour—to start from the reedy right in not going fully into the question, and he
Waterloo station at half-past six, so as to be at Gosport at should advise him now not to press the matter to a division,
half-past nine, for the accommodation of the two houses of
but rest content with having put his opinions upon record.
parliament. Ho believed the accommodation would he Sir J. SHELLEY could not but congratulate the right
ample for at least 500 or 600. bon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) both for
Mr. UUME asked if they were to have a free passaged his speech upon this and on the former occasion when this
(Laughter.) matter was before the house. Upon the former occa. ion he
Sir J. GRAHAM said the arrangement be had made was
had indeed spoken against time with much ability.
that each member of the two houses should pay for himself.
Mr. E. BALL did not think it right to divide the house
Captain SCOI3ELL asked if there would be any train to
un this occasion. He felt sure that what he had said had
bring them back ain ?—but no answer was giv
MESSAGE FROM TIIE LORDS. en.
not been without its effect upon the Chancellor of the Ex-
Mr. Scrjeant MANN cheluer. (Laughter.)lNO, the Queen's Ancient Serjeant, The question was then put, and the motion of the hon.
)
attired in his scarlet robes, appeared at the bar as a mss-
wager from the lords, bringing down certain bills. This I member was lost without a division.
is the first time which the learned gentleman has appeared SUPPLY.
in that character ; and the awkwardness with which he The report of the Committee of Supply was brought up
performed the retrograde steps, afforded much amusement and received.
to the house. PILOTAGE BILL.
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS. This bill was read a third time and passed.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that government orders CUSTOMS BILL.
should have precedence on Wednesday next up to three The house went into committee upon this bill.
o'clock. The clauses having been gone through, the house resumed
Mr. BOUV ERIE suggested that the words till three and the hill was reported.
o'clock should be left out. CUSTOMS ACTS CONSOLIDATION BILL.
Mr. NEWDEBATE complained of the conduct of go- The house went into committee on this bill. The stveral
• velment in appropriating every day, and leaving no time CL,lael were agreed to, and the hill was reported.

CHARITABLE TIII*L'IS BILL.
The bill wax read a third time.

Oti the question that the bill pass,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved an addition t 3
the 13th clause, enacting that any persons refusing t 3
liver accannts or committing other acts or disobedience
should be held guilty of contempt
_and liable to attach.
went.
Agreed to.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL then moved another
clause, permitting. the charities exempted by clause 63
to bring themselves wholly, or partially, under the opera-
tion of the act if they should hereafte: desire.
Agreed to.
The SOLICITOR.GENERAL moved a third clause en-
abling two- thirds of the trustees of the exempted charities
to refer any disputes as to the fitness i r qualifications of
any officer or trustee to the arbitration of the Board of
Cam
miasioners, so as to render unnecessary an appeal to the
Court of Chancery.
Mr. J. BALL expressed a fear lest the clause should after
all have the effect of brining the (sculpted charities com-
pulsorily under the operation of the bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL briefly replied, and the clause w 33
agreed to and added to the bill.
Mr. PRICE moved a clause allowing deeds to be tined
by any five of the trustees where their number should ex-
ceed six.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought the clause wilt
very dangerous one, inasmuch as it might hand over the
preparation and execution of deeds and leases to a small
clique of the trustees. (Hear, hear.)
The clause was negatived withifit a division.
Mr. HUTT moved in clause 5, line 28, to leave cut
" paid commissioner," and odd, et the end of the clause,
the following words :—" And such commissioners to be ap-
pointed under this act, as shall hold their office during
good behaviour, shalt he subject to the pros isions of the
26th section of the seventh chapter of the .t:,tugs
made in the sixth year of the reign of Queen Ani.e."
lie considered that the precedent of the poor law ebtlltele•
lion demonstrated the perfict impossibility of the com-
missioners under the bill satisfactorily performing thsir
duties unless they had seats in the House of Commons.
Mr. J. G. PHILLINIORE suggested, as an objection to
the amendment, that the commissioners might be able to
exercise an undue influence over constituencies.
Lord J. RUSSELL was, generally speaking, in favour of
removing restrictions, but he did not think the insta.ce
quoted by the hon. gentleman, namely, the poor-law board,
was a case in poMt, inasmuch so the functions of the com-
missioners under this bill would be more of a ministerial
character. (Hear, hear.) He could not, on the part of the
government, assent to the amendment at thin stage.
The house divided—

-.--
For the amendment
Against it
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL proposed some verbal
amendments, which were agreed to.
Mr. HADFIELD moved an amendment on clause 4ri, to
omit the words " by any rule or practice of the Court of
Chancery," as applied to any preference or right %Lich the
church of England might have to any charity.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected to the amend-
ment, as tending to unsettle rules which bad been esta-
blished by a long course of decb.ions. Its only tflect would
be to embarrass the COMMiSSiOCCTA, by introduciug uncLr-
tainty into their proccediup.
The house divided. •
For the amendment
Agairst 9O-40 $
On clause G 2, which refers to the exemption of the Uni-
versities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Durham from the
operation of the act,
Lard J. RUSSELL proposed to leave out the University
of Durham. There was a reason for :his exemption of Or-
ford and Cambridge that they were recently the subject of
inquiry, and it would be necessary to apply to then, sepa-
rate legislation. It was not fit, therefore, that they should
come under the provkions of the bill ; but the same reason
did not apply to the Universities of London and Durham.
Sir R. INGLIS did not see any reason for the exclusion
of Durham, and thought it would be better to leave the
clause as it stood.

The house divided
For Lord J. Russell's motion GI
Agriust it 7O-5

Mr. THORNELY said that the house having now de-
cided in favour of the exemption of Durham, he proposed
that the University of Linden be likewise exempicil, not
that be wanted to have it exempted frem the operation of
the act, but that he wished it to ,be put in an equality of
position with the other universities. (Hear.)
Lord J. ItUSSELL said he must oppcse the motion, far,
whatever the grounds on which the house decided
on exempting Durham, serious mischief would arise
from the exemption of the London University.
The house divided.
For the amendment 64
Against it
The ameadment was cot aequently lost.
Sir lt. INGLIS moved that the Royal Hospital in the
City of Lomb's, Guy's Hospital, the Corporation of the
Sons of the Clergy, and the Clergy Orphan Corporati.o be
exempted.
. _ _

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL -ppoted the amendment,
contending that although the funds of these institutions
were no doubt well administerid, yet by itilUeting them
to the operation of the bill a great stimulus would b.: given
to charitable bequests to them in future.
The amendment was withdrawn.

The SOLICITOII-GENERAL then moved in clause 01,
page 23, line 33, to leave out the words "or any lwch-
selling or publishing business carri«l on by cr in connexion
with or for the benefit of any religious exempted society,"
and to insert instead, at page 23, line 44, after the words
"the powers or provisions of this act," the folio% iug "And
no booksclling or publishing business, carried on by or in
connexion with or for the benefit of any religious society, so
far as the came is, or shod be, carried on by means of vo-
luntary contributions, shall be subj: et to the jurisdiction or
control of the said board, or the posters or provisions of this
act ;"—which was agreed to.
The bill then passed.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL.
The bill was read a third time and passed.
LATE SITTINGS.

At this point (half-past one),
Mr. BROTHER:ION made his usual protest against the
lateness of the sitting ; but he wu put down by cries of
" Go on."

Colonel SIBTHORP was sorry the hon. gentleman was
so easily put down. Ho begged to ni9ve the adjournment
of the house. Did the government mean to go on with the
Hackney Carriages Bill that night ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No, not
to-night.
Colonel SIBTHORP—Then I'll go home.
Amid the laughter of the house, the bon. and gallant
colonel accordingly immediately walked out.

CROWN SUITS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
FEMALE CONVICTS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.