The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-21 00:00:00

should, however, support the measure, trusting to the justice
of the British public, who, he believed. notwithstanding the
prejudice against the doctrines of the Roman catholic faith,
would hereafter petition in favour of a grant to
' those who professed it for the purposes of education.
He thought the words fanaticism and intolerance were often
' misused and misapplied. He leaked with pleasure and pride
to the deep religious feelings of the people of this country.
They had come down to them from times of old ; and for his
part he preferred the ironsides of Cromwell to the demons
of the French revolution. Even when they ran in a wrong
direction they should treat them with indulgence and ten-
derness and soothe them with love. (Cheers.)
Mr. K. SEYMER hoped that the government would give
the question, as it related to the Roman catholic., a fair con-
sideration on some future occasion. While listening to the
speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Edin-
burgh he felt that it could not lie answered, and unto the
present time he had heard nothing like an answer given to
it. Any unprejudiced person taking up these minutes
must be surprised at the opposition offered to so
' simple a proposition. He thought that this might
be viewed as an extension of the voluntary prin-
ciple, and that the Church of England made some sacri-
fices of strict principle with respect to it ; but if the govern-
ment were to listen to the chinch en one side, and the dis-
senters on the other, they never could have anything done for
the education of the people. (Hear, In au) They did not
wish to empty the chapels to fill the churches, but there was
ample room for the exertions of all in endeavouring to bring
back from vice those millions who did not attend any place
of worship. If these were reclaimed, it would not he at the
expense of either, but at the expense of vice, brutish igno-
rance, and practical atheism. (Hear, hear.) He would
therefore eurtiolly support the meaeure of the government,
Mr. AOLIONBY would have the Roman catholia
and the members of the jewish persuasion receive
the benefits of education in the schools of the state. He did
not know how far they might avail themselves of schools of
this description, but he would not by any measure stamp
them with a mark of exclusion. (Wear, hear.) On this
ground it was that he would vote against the measure of
the government, but at the same time, he prayed that a
opium of education might he adopted, not one that would
only create h art-burnings and dissensions amongst the sub.
jects of her Majesty, but one that would satisfy all, that
would less n ignorance, diminish crime, offer no impediment
or exclusion on the ground of religious tenets, leaving to
the rs of each denomination, end to the parents, the
duty of teaching their children whatever doctrines they
believed in [hi it voisciwnc, •o be right. (Hear, hear.)
Lord SANDON • lued the propocil scheme most
highly on two grounds: first, becau..e it was founded
on the principle that it was the duty of the state
to see that the great, et possible amount of edu-
cation existed ; and secondly, because it recognised
the fact that religion was an essential part of everything
worthy of the name of education, and that the education of
the moral men was that which was moist important. (Hear,
hear.) lo this country it appears d impossible that the state
should provide for the education of the people. That
might be done in countries where there was greater unifor-
mity and servility of opinion, but, in a country like our
own, where there was so much freedom of opinion, and
where the habit of giving effect to those opiniocs prevailed
so exte..sively, state education seemed to be impossible of at.
tainment. What this state did under those circumstances,
was to rake the means which the country had itself
chosen, and to arsiat in making them effectual. He
thought that was a wise course ; anti, in his judgment, it was
the only one which could be pursued. (Hear, hear.) He
was nut prepared to give an unqualified assent to the
minutes, or to aiy that every regulation was the best that
could be adopted ; he considered the scheme as part of the
process which had been going on for three years, in which
they had been going on rep by step, feeling their way,
taking care if possible to do no harm, and that every step
should be a good one. As to the argument
that the duty of religious teaching might be left
to the ministers of religion, he believed that it was
im-
posible, if merely on the ground of want of time, that the
duty could be performed by such instrumentality. How could
a clergyman, having five or ten thousand people under his
charge, give religious instruction to all the children in the
schools of his parish ? Such a thing was physically im-
possible. He hailed the proposition before parliament as a
very greet step in a very good direction; and he hoped that
it would be further extended hereafter, for good as the plan
was, there were many of the humbler and poorer
districts to which its benefits might not extend, in con-
sequence of the inadequacy of their own resources. (Hear,
hear.) So far from discouraging the voluntary principle,
the scheme was a direct stimulant to it—(hear, hear)—it
was the principle of this scheme which gave, as it
were, a case to those who rested on the voluntary
principle. Hs should be exceedingly sorry to see the
voluntary principle superseded. He believed that the
voluntary principle was a most essential element in
the English character and in English habits; and one of the
advantages of this measure was, that it would tend to draw
out that principle into still more extensive operation.
Mr. GISBORNE wished to explain the reasons which
would induce him to vote against the measure. It was not
that he desired to join in a vote of censure, or entertained
any idle apprehensions. He had no hesitation in saying
that he thought there was no limit to the duties which a
government might perform, except its ability to perform
them beneficially for the community over which it presided ;
but he had come to the conclusion, find from analogy,
and secondly, from experience, that government could
not interfere beneficially in the business of educa-
tion. First, as to the paint of analogy. He had
listened with admiration, ria indeed every one must
hare done, to the speech of the right hon. gentleman the
member for Edinburgh, on the previous evening ; but it
I seemed to him that there was nut a defile syllable in that
rposeek which would not have Oren equally applicable, if, in-
stead of simple education, they had been discussing the
graver matter of religisn. His speech was quite as much a
speech in favour of an estabeshed church as in favour of ea-
vernment undertaking the education of the people —( hear,
hear)—and the steps taken to remove religious ignorance
should have been exactly those contended for in the present
case. It might have been argued that there should he a
grant for building places of worship, places of worship having
been established, the right hon. gentleman would have been
obliged to take such instructor. as he found ; and having
obtained the aid of these instructors, he would have de-
sired to secure reports from uncrecorrot, with regard to the
instruction which had been &Corded. We would, no doubt,
have received from rwurientos Watkins inch a report.
An How. MEMOIR here moved that the house be counted.

Strangers wets ordered to widebaw, but en one readasis-
ion to the mMery,
Mr. GISDORNE hod resumed. He was about to say
that one of the church inspectors might report, as the Rev.
Henry Marley had done, that in a certain diocese the school-
rooms were little more than half full, and that great igno-
rance prevailed : and the conclusion drawn might
have been exactly like that which had been drawn by
the right hoa gentleman, including, of course, an
increase of the number of bishops to oriel° tic the clergy.
Well, then, he asked whether the Church of England had
answered the ends of religious instruction ? Why the noble
bird (Lord J. Russell) bad shown that thousands in this
seentry did erat know the name of their maker or of
Christ, their Redeemer, and it appeared clearly that the
working classes generally were passed by as far as the church
was concerned. lie, therefore, deduced from the analogy of
the church that a national system of education was
sot likely to produce the results expected. Re drew
the same conclusion from the experience of the
assistance which had been given in national education for
the last thirty years. It appeared, from the report of the
Rev. H. M zley. that children who were questi ned said
that the Queen of England was the Queen of France;
that England w•s in Africa-(laughter)—and that in going
to Siotland it was necessary to travel southwards; and Mr.
Watkins related a case in which, when the question was
asked Who collected the Scripturea into a volume ?" the
reply given was, " Gomorrah." As far, in short, as they had
had experience of the results of the efforts mode for the last
thirty years, experience did not lead him to the conclusion
that the government could inteurre beneficially in the
matter of education. Now, Mr. Ray had United Switzer-
land and France i.e the purpose of witnessing the systems
in operation there ; but though he found admirable ma-
chinery at work, he seeme i indignant at the hare idea of
any one expecting good results at present. In answer to
the objection that the people of those two countries were the
most d 'affected and turbulent people in Europe, he said
that the present linden's of educatoin were only introduced
in 1833, and that t ey must not look for any beneficial
results under seventy or eighty yearn. He spoke confidently
as to the results by the end of that period, hut all they
had to set against experience was Mr. Hay's prephe ty.
Mr. Kay, too, was far from being always right. His
opinions *ere ...doily tweed to Ouse to Mr. David Lung
and Prince Puckler-Muskau. Indeed it appeared frem
everything that was known, that the morality of Prussia,
the best educated c .entry of Germany, was lower than that
'gene ocher art of Germany. Neither could he agree with
Mr. Macaulay in his estimate of the Scotch. He had spent
many weeks in Olawrow, Oreenuk, and thr Highlands, and
he had never seen west- r ignoruce or want of cleanlinees
in any country. These things proved that education was
not the universal panacea for the ills of a nation. He was
not dig:to-ea to think it ea. Ey n at the present time the
church, disposed as he was to think of it favourably, was not
the educ ,to of the people. The church educated the
higher clavier, hut the catholic,' and the Wesleyan were the
educators of she lower.
Mr. P. 110 R fli WICK said it did not follow that the
Scotch were uneducated because the man who car. ied the
hen. member'', gun in the Highlands collie' not spa'. He
believed the present measure provided the best means of
education fir the people that i., was ;swage for the governs
meat to provide. There was an admitted evil to be reme-
died The government proposed a scheme which had in it
some 'toed. The amendment proposed a plan for postponing
that scheme indefinitely. He felt himself bound to Rapport
the scheme of the government. The speech of the noble lord
(Lord J. Russell) was worthy Mellen days nf EnglAnd'setateat
men. Hewished the nehle lord's measure had been equally bold.
In producing' the present state of non 'dilution, he thought
the church bad been much to Mime. in the non-observimee
by its ministers of the dut7 enjoined upon them by the
rubrics— constantly to examine the children under their
charge in the catechism, and the first principles of the
Christian religinn. He was of opinion, that had the curio-
evasions of the clergy been duly held, they would have done
much to remedy thin omission, and promote the advance
of epirituel and moral education among the people. The
me 'sure before the house, though it did not effect all that
could be desired, did very much, sod in every point its
course was in the right direction.
N!ineount MORPETH 'mid, that after the full expnsition
which this rat enure had received, on its first introduction
and since, he nhou'd not trespass long on the attentitin of the
boas., het, a. a member of the itheolinu. Privy Council •
as o.•e who had sheen. taken at. anxious part the quiotinr:
of ednestioe ; nett, eh ell, ere one who founts himself in
the painful petition of being separated in opinion upon this

point from many with whom he had heretofore acted, he
WAS desirous of making a few observations. He had every
need of the consciousness of a good came to support him oe
this occasion, for not only este the petitions ho had praeented,
wan the immense majority advene to.the course he was pre-
pared to adopt, but he had to act counter also to the views
of many, his regret to differ from whom could be estimated
by no ordinary rules. He WAS supported by the ConstiOWS.
nen of a good cause, and the conmedon that the different
parties or denominations were fighting the whole battle on
lower grounds, and with weapons of a coiner temper than
befitted the nature of the case ; that they were too intent
upon counting the num,ers and weighing the interests of
church or chapel, tabernacle or sanctuary, instead of riving
the main ettention to th. flock—to the people. (II ex, hear.)
He rejoiced to find, at least, that the doctrine so rile
out of doors, and which was the burthen of so many
petitions, the doctrine, namely, that the state had no right
to interfere with the education if the people, eas nut ad
mitted within the walls of that house—(near, hear)—
though nightly advocated by the hon. member for Der-
byshire. That hon. gentleman had been particelerly severe
in his strictures upon the Pressler s, but a.th 'ugh no
doubt Mr. Laing's opinion, quoted by the hon. gotta-man,
was unfavourable to the Prussian system of state education,
the majority of writers and travellers gave a very different
estimate of that system. At all events we w. re now roue
to a period when the Prussian people could no longer be
stigmatised as wanting the characteristics of a tree nation.
(Hear, hear.) As he had before observed, the doctrine that
the state had no right to educate the people found no echo
in that house. The hon. member for Finsbury had nut
touched upon it, end the hon. and learned member fur
Bath distinctly repudiated it, expressing his readiness to go
much further than the government proposed to go in thi
matter. The hon. and 'learned member It id also had the
candour to treat with the small considerat'on it deserved
the bugbear that the present measure would have the
effect of unduly increasing the infi tence of the
crown, and the patronage of the ministry. Never was there
a more preposterously absurd proposition than that the
rewarding a few Behoolmasters, and the encouraging and
training some promising scholars, could be teeneu into a dark
and insidious engine of corruption, such as lowered beton
the eyes of some of the opponents of this measure. The
hon. member thought that a more effective scheme mad
have been devised, a scheme less sectarian in its tendeacies.
Very possibly • but the question for the government wee.
what was the tint scheme they could now eury into smote.
tion. (Hear, hear.) There were, w usu.-1, three courses
be putsued. (A laugh.) They might Lave adopted ein
exclusive scheme, adopting one particular mode of religions"
teaching, which, in such a eau, would. in all probetsditer
have been that of the established chui di of the country.
To this he could not have assented. They might, next,
have taken what he would call the uniform scheme, in
which the state would prescribe the same course to all
alike, without permitting any special mode of reli-
gious instruction ; but this would not have met with
the consent either of parliament or of the country.
The third plan was the co-operatic • scheme, which
built non. that which it found, and ms tented itself with
voluntary efforts; and this had been adopted as the most
practicable and as the most likely to do good. He had
heard with much pain the spet ch of his kinsman, the
noble member for Arundel. But how did they stand with
reference to the Roman Catholics? When he became a
member of the council, he found certain principles laid
down and established. It was proposal by the present
minutes to enlarge and extend those priteiplea, hut not to
change them; ere they could be changed, it would be
fitting to give fair notice, to cake due application to parlia•
went; and certainly to adopt the Dousy vt rsion, or to admit
exclusively Catholic schools, would be a change distinctly re-
wiring such notification and such application to parliament.
(Hear.) It was somewhat curious, by tl.e way, that many
of those most inclined to complain of ea arnitrery power
and discretion vested in the council, were precisely these
who also complained that the council had not adopted more
decided changes, with tut any reference to parliament. He
believed that catholic applications to pardament for assist-
ance had hardly as yet assumed any distinct form, and be
did not at all know how far the catholic hip rushy were pre-
pared to submit to that inspection which was an essential
feature in the government plan. For one, however, he
would say, that of no committee which should reject a
catho ic application for assistance, solely en the ground of
its being catholic, would he be a member. (Hear, hear.)
He would not enter much into the gaieties of the question.
The advocates of the voluntary system had themselves ad-
mitted that a most grievous uumber of young persons were
wholly without the means of education, and that the
evil was one which should be remedied as soon and as
energetically as possible. lie would, however, refer to a
communication from a valued correspondent at Bradford,
who had been making extensive inquiries ices the state and
means of education in that town, a locality, le it observed,
where voluntaryism was promoted most energetically,
and, to a certain extent, successfully. It appeared that there
were in the wish of Bradford 13 townships, the population
being 119.000; the public schools were 40 in number, the
private 111 ; in the public schools there were 4,267 day-
echolars, in the private 8,789, in the Sunday schools 19,000—
the education in the latter schools being by nu means sate-
factoiy, first, because it was incomplete in itself,
and secondly, because, if rendered more effective, the
time occupied in the inadequate application to secular
instruction would trespass on the sabbath, hot*, on the cha-
racter and on the leisure of the day. In these sehools the
great proportion of teachers were remake, not more than tee
of whom received any salary beyond the Id. or lid. a week
paid by the respective teachers. Mane of the bible schools
required 21d. or 3d. from each scholar—a sum which, in
times of pressure, the poorer climes could not Fire, and the
children were accordingly at such periods withdrawn. He
trusted that the effect of the present measure would be to
render the means of education so regular and so cheap as to
enable even the poorest people to keep their children at
school. Then, as to the quality of the education now given
to the poor. Three years ago, the factory inspectors laid
down that the educati n of the chil lien in the greater
number of the schools that had come under their
notice was altogeteer feeble. Many of th t schools
erected by government support were going to decay.
In eon school, wnere there were 70 children, the master
had nothing but their pence, and paid the rent of the school
himself. Another school was in a cottage-house ; it was
often full, and there were two beds in the room, where the
children of the family slept. In another, estahlished about
eleven years, the master made 17s. per week, and the mis-
tress 124. '1 his school had been for a long time in great
difficulties. In another established four yearn, the funds
were derived from the peure of the children, which flue.
tuated very much. If the attendance diminished the master
had no funds to fall back upon. He expected his income to be
reduced this year on account of increased expenses He
did not feel called upon to add anything to what had already
been so impressively stated with: respect to the position of
the schoolm Atter. But his extremely dispu ming position,
and the urgent necewity of giving him the appearance of
respectability in the eyes of the community amongst whom
he lived and discharged his important duties, would alon'
justify more than all the house was called upon to vote.
(Hear, hear.) In reference to the connection of crime with
toe watt of education. he would confine himself to the dis-
trict he represented. In the West Riding of Yorkshire, in
1846. there were committed to the geeing 417 prisoners;
only 3 could read well ; 120 could read ; 145 imp-rim:6y ; and
149 not at all. The calendar for the last session of the
county of York contained 66 prisoners : 10 could not read,
34 imperfectly, and 22 not at all. In the borough of Leeds.
whence the most energetic movements against the cause of
education had proceeded, 212 prisoners had been committed:
8 could read well, 73 could read, 61 imperfectly, and 74 not
at all. (Hear, hear.) The punishment of come had cost
the barough of Let fil lest year the following items: con-
stabulary force, 6,6781, • quarter sessions, 2,8121. ; mainte-
nance of prisoner., 5,01301. ; York manes, 1,9001. 1 the. re-
corder, 2001 ; the mistier, 2371 ; interest on money borrowed
for the gaol, 2,0001.; total, 18,926/. (Hear, hear) Thi.
correspondent added, with perfect rea'on, "There were, a:
the time e.l the census, 31,000 houses in Leeds; and as the
rate of increase is about one-seventh in six years, there are
now 3.5,000 house', which gives an annual cost per house, for
the punishment of rime within the harough, of 10s. Bd. per
annam. Will it cost the borough 10s. 811. per house, in
direct taxation, to educate their people rather than punish
them ? And if it cost them as much, how great a
tat of tears would it save !" Much had been said out of
doors as .1) the effect of state education in controlling and
curling the national intellect and mind, and putting it in
a sort of groove in which the state might hold it convenient
that it should run. Considi ring the great variety of dis-
pates and discussions which hod subsisted since the founda-
tion of Christianity,—whether of Arians and Athsnasians, of
Augustinians and Pet tgiacis, Catholic. and Protestants, Je-
suits and Jansenistn,Caleinista and Lutherans, High Chun*
and Low Church, IK.ngellcals and Puseyites,—he could not
refrain from occasionally wishing to see the experiment of a
boy or girl of fair intellect, well instructed and informed,
growing up to mature age without any prepossessions on
such subjects being instilled into their minds, or any bias
e tmmultiemed from without, and then seeing to what decision
their unbiassed and unassisted judgment would cow-.
(Hear.) But there were, unhappily, too many potent
counter-influences for evil acting upon the human heart

to make this elm rintent a safe one; few p.rents would
like to make it on one of their offspring; and no community
would prescribe it for its citiz. ns. (Hear.) But he had vet
to learn that the minds and intellect, of the infant and
youthful p mutation were not liable to be eh niu:l influenced
and put into the groove by the iteration either of a Church
of England or Wesleyan cstechitm, or by the dr II of h grist
or independent commur.itirs, as they could be by the most
rigorous tuition, even of Prussia herself. (H •ar, hear.) In
the 'scheme proposed, the state officer was not permitted
to interfere, in aoy degree, to mould the principle of re i-
ntent teaching which he found laid down ; and if he did,
probably the teaching of the state would be found
cramped and coillned than that of its trier iw dissi•
dents. In addition to the concern he felt at being separated,
on this subject, from many en his constituents, he could not
but feel regret that the old protestantlissenting denomins-
tiona of England, associated witk so much that was precious
in our common history, should have committed themselvis
to the course up in which they had now entered. (Hear,
hoar.) He regretted it, because be believed that the cause
which they had refused to sanction, and which they were so
resolute in opposing, was emphatically the cause of the
working men and the working women of this country.
(Mar, hear) He regretted it, because he believed it was
the only means now at the disposal of the legislature for
tartest,* e ibutieg to the eduration of the poor. (Hear.) He
regretted it for hmiself, indeed, because lie alto:ill miss the
stnonurageinent and the companion hip to which, through a
political wive:ion, now of some duration, he had hear
customer! ; hut he should regret it fir their sakes also, be•
,ass he believed sincerely, and not arrogantly, that they
wars in the wrong, and, therefore, however this opposition
might embitter the struggle, he believed that in the end
they would most surely fail. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT add Ise was sensible be was defensUng men
and principles which were nut very popular in teat tirem-