The Express.
London, England, 1848-02-26 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 26, 1848.

oud not give a precise
atured statement of the aocoent,
bat be would state gen ly that as to the drat grant of
8,000,0001. of stock, that amount was carried to the
credit of the Consolidated Fund, secording to the
practice of late years. Of the whole amount
re-
of
10,040,0001. that had been granted for the purposes of
lieving the &steels in Ireland, 9,000.0001. had bee
1.
n ex-
pended, leaving a sum of between 900,0001. aad 1,000,000
which wee applicable to the purposes of land improvement
in Ireland. -Ili. further sum of 1,500,0001. wee appropriated
also to land improvements, so that there now remained un-
expended of the 10,000,0001. grant rather less then 1,000,0001.
With respect te the other question of the hon. baronet, he
begged to state that last year some of the China money was
applicable to general pummel and he (tkn Chancellor of
the Exchequer) bad hoped to have so applied it ; but it had
been appropriated by the Commissariat Department, and if,
as he hoped. he got the two votes which ho proposed to move
in the committee of supply of that evening, he would be
able to repay the conunisiariat chest for the advances made
by it on account of the Kaffir war, and thus be able to drew
the China money and place it to the account of ways sad
_ _

means.
Col. CONOLLY asked the right hon. gentleman if be
could state how much of the money advanced to Ireland was
a eft, and how mach bad been advanced morel on loan ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after
leaking a calculation, said that, as nea as might
amount be, the
amount advanced on loan was 4,150,0001 r
~ and the
granted was 4,270,0001.
Mr. W. DENISON asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer what he meant when he said that 9,000,1.0001.
Ihad been
applied to Irish purposes, and that 900,000 or ,000 ,001.
Aid remained applicable to those purposes ?
The CHANCELLOR of the RKAIEQUER saided thatto
the future expenditure of the grant would be onnin
land improvements He had already procured a readvance of
1,600,000/. on account of this branch of economy, for in that
direction the great demand for money now existed.
KAFFIR WAR.
Mr. Y. SMITH asked whether it was the intention of the
right bon. gentleman to persevere in proposing the vote for
the Kaffir war in the committee of supply that evening, as
the papers relating to:that war had only just been laid on the
table of the house, and no hon. member could have hail time
an yet to read them ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
given notice of his intention to take the vote fur the Kaffir
war that night a week ago.
Mr. 13, COCHRANE urged that he required time to read
the papers just presented, before he could understand the
vote which was to be brought before the committee
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
rapers refereed to had nothing whatever to do with the vote.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL P. was resolved that
house, at its rising, do adjourn to Monday next.
FOREIGN TARIFFS.
Mr. BANKES said that a return had been ordered lot
year of the lists of customs' duties imposed in all those count
trees with which England had any commercial relations. On
looking over that list he found there were no returns of
cus-
toms' duties levied is Spain, nor were there any of those
levied in Portugal.
Lord i'ALMERSTON said be would inquue into the
matter, and give a reply on Monday.
FRENCH MINISTRY.
Mr. lIINDLEY begged received e noble lord, the foreign
secretary, whether he had any official intelligens'
from Paris respecting the present state of affairs there ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the date of the last as
counts which he had received from Paris was halt-past six
o'clock on the evening before the last. Those accounts con-
veyed to him the retirement of M. Guixot from the ministry,
and that the King had sent for Count Mole to form a
government.
EXPENDITURE OF THE COUNTRY.
The order of the day was read for the house going into
committee of supply.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. HL'lst E said he was sorry that an imperative sense of
duty celled on him to offer an inarference with the service
of government, but he could appeal to the house, whether,
when it was agreed to advance 3,700,0001. on account of the
army and navy, it was not distinctly understood that they
were not to be called on to vote any further sum until the
select committee had been enabled to meet, and to examine
and report upon the expenditure.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to
state to the hon. member that he had, on being told that the
vote granted last Monday was only on account, distinctly
said tnat on that understanding he should bring forward the
two votes for the navy excess and the Kaffir war on the
next supple night.
Mr. HUME had no doubt whatever, since the right hon.
gentleman had asserted it, that the fact was so. But he ob-
cted to any esmates being
je brought fawned until the
house saw how thtie matter stood with respect to the expendi-
purpbow fir it was neceesary to impose new taxes tor the
ose of increaming the establishments of the country. His
object, therefore, was to pledge the house to grant no
addi-
beet' tax until the committee had reported on the
expenditure. (Hear, hear.) In the year 1835 he
had protested against the additional expenditure
which was incurred then. Ho said on that occasion, that
the time would come when they would all be brought up,
to use a common expression, and the time had now arrived.
In ,he present state of commercial and manufacturing de-
pression how could the noble lord attempt to impose new
taxes ? And yet he spoke of the matter as if he was perform
ing some most creditable teak, and that the people had only
to listen to him to yield, and to pay any tax he pleased to
propose. The noble lord stated with great sangfroid, that
in the year 1835 the army numbered 150,000 men, and that
in 1547 the cumbers had increased to 135,000, without
telling them why this increase had been made, or offering
any reason for its continuance. The noble lord also stated
that the ordnance had been rai<ed from 8,420 men in 1835
to 14,000 men in 1847. Ile was not surprised at petitions
such as had been read in the house being presented against
the income tax from Liverpool and London, or that the
people should endeavour to arrest the government in
their intentions, and stop their career of extravagance.
It would he a charity to stop the ministry in their downward
course. (Laughter.) The noble lord ought te have furniehed
the Iletlits of the dockyard battalions, the pensioners, and
the police force, all of whom were armed, amounting to a
force of 250,000 men, and actually showing that the govern-
ment had convened a peaceful commercial community into
a warlike and threatening nati,n. (Hear, hear.) lie had
hoped to have berd from the Chanceiem that he was pre-
psred to removea taxes and not to impose new ones.
*rhos, from year to year, the question was put, why is
this enormous expenditure still kipt up, the answer always
given, from 1822-25 to 1828 was, that the state of the con-
tinent was still unsettled, and that France had not settled
down under her monarchy. lie had always been opposed
to intermeddling in the affairs of forciga nations, for such
interference had always produced rancour and ill-will.
(Hear, hear.) And was it now that, after the
downfall of a dynasty of set enteen years' standing,
England was to be so foolish as to suppose that her army
bad ever tended to settle the differences which existed ,
amongst the French people ? (Hear, hear.) So far from
this, he thought the very contrary effect was proluced ; and,
Hall the accounts he had heard were coerce', it was probable
that Louis Philippe would soon make his appearance in
England. He would tell the government that it was not in
the power of any army to support a monarch on his throne
now
against the wish of his people ; and Lois Philippe
found that, after expending 60,000,000'. or 70,000,0001. on
his forts round Paris. he was not a bit the nearer set uring
the permanence of his dynasty. (Hear, hear.) What a
lesson did not the recent events in Paris offer to govern-
ments ? Who were the authors of what had occurred there
The middle classes—the same classes on who-e behalf he now
sniveled in that house against the impositions endured
by them. Why was it, let him ask, that there were between
30,000 and 40,000 more men in the army now than there
were in 1533 ? In the year 1822 he wasted six weeks in
trying to reduce the navy and military estimates, and be
took no less than from 70 to 80 divisions on them. He then
moved an address to the crown, praying that th • establish-
ment of the country should be reduced to the standard of
1792. Mr. Betakes moved an amendment on his motion,
making a very trifling alteration in the wards, and that
was carried. The result was, that the estimates next year
were reduced by 3,000,0001.,, anthe number of men in t
he
army will leavened by 10 ou'o. lid now what he t
stated, that it was the duty of the house to compel ministers
to retrace their steps, and to reduce the army and
navy establishments. He protested against any mi-
Ritter asserting that the revenue had decreased.
Revenue had not failed, but every increase of receipt had
been met by increase of expenditure. Among other
things the Irish estimates required revision. In a few years
they had increased to the amount of 1801. per cent., and
were principally items with which the consolidated fund had,
properly speaking, nothing to du. If all these things were
attended to, not only might the income tees be left without
interne, but many taxes—the window tax, and the ilutiee, for
instance, which pressed heavily on the poor might be removed.
On the grounris be had stated he asked the house not to
agree to one item of the estimates until aft, the debate of
Monday evening. The hon. member concluded by moving,
"That it is expedient that the expenditure of the country
should he reduced, not only tutn an imereass id taxation
is this session unnecessary, that the expenditure should
be further reduced as epeedily as possible, to admit of a re-
duction of the present large ameunt of taxation."
Mr. WARD made allowance for the altered position of the
oonntry, and the distress prevailing in the great mercantile
commuoity, and he knew that great pressure was
exercised on such members of that house as
represented large constituencies. But lie contended that
good reasons could be given for the inert as, in the naval
(ultimates, and that the country had had good value for tho
money expended. (Hear, hear.) Ho was prepared to say
that when the right hon. baronet the member for Tam-
worth commenced that lain expenditure which the present
government were only followitig up, he wee consulting the
real interests and safety of the country. (Hear, hear.) He
would now call the attention of the house to the three prin-
cipal votes in the naval estimates. For works in 1836, the
sem expended was 62 4401. That vote had been increasing
annusty • it was in 1843-44, 214,000/. ; in 'l4-46, 298,000;
in '45-16', 486,0001.; in '46.47, 627,8101.; and in '47-48,
the present vote, it Iced increased to 668.0001 . showing
an apparent addition of 140,000/. lie said an ap-
parent addition, because the whole of the new
wake were included in one vote instead of being spread
over foo .as had previously been the practice The it. mof
stores heti increased in so equal proportion. From 426,0001.
in 1835-36 they had increased to 1,511,000/. during the
present year, and dockyard works pri cisely in the same
ratio. The reason of al. this was, that (Letitia the last few
years a new power had coins into existence, for which this
country was bound to provide, not only by substituting
steam vessels for maitre vessels, but by building docks
and factories where such works could 'oe carried on—
those splendid establishments which the right hon. baronet
had commenced, and the present government had completed
with the consent and approbation of the Hasse of Commons.
(Hear, hoax.) The country had paid for steam machinery

alone 2,689,0001., which, with stores, accounted for three
and • half millions at once. The dockyards, which in 1835
were Lt a state of destitution, had been renovated until no
more magnificent establishments could now be found in any
part of the world. (Hear, hear.) We had magnificent steam
factories, besides steam bssins at Portsmouth and Devon
port, all of which he maintained were necessary to the exist-
ence death a steam navy as was imperatively required by
such • country as this, on the principle that every
country should look to ita own interest and ita own
safety. That was wbat the present government had done.
It was felt that it would be most perilous to be without •
steam navy in the possible contingency of a rupture with
any foreign country. Neither could proper places for repsir
of crippled vessels be dispensed with, nor had they been cern-
: planed of, until now that the house was called upon to pay
the bill. (Hear, hear.) Now, instead of treating the matter
es any railway company would have treated it, that was to
my, as an investment of capital, the house merely looked
upon it as an increase in the votes. He contended that it
was merely so much money capitalised.
of Taking out
what was necessaryry for the femurs dockyards,
there was half a million invested in great national
bliehments. Neither were these confined to this coun-
try.esta We had • large establishment at Malta, where the
steamers could be repaired, instead of being sent home for
that purpose. This was a measure which would result in
great economy of money. (Hear, hear.) He repeated, then,
that this country had received value for the money which
had been expended. If it could be shown that these esta-
blishments were unnecessary, that England would have
been secure without following the ease course as other
powers in substituting • steam for a sailing navy, then there
might be good grounds for impeachment. But the
fact was, that for ten years the house had re-
garded this and similar expenditure as absolutely
neceesary for the security of the country, and not only that,
but there had been constant cries for harbours of refuge and
all sorts of demands on the part of hon. members. Now,
however, when the bill came to be paid, every one found
fault with the expense. (Hear, hear.) Ho used the house
whether they had not hail value for their money ? They
had new and splendid works, which, being finished, would
would be an item of expense ; and he heped the time
I oon come when demands for them would cease on
the part of the government. He would for a moment call
the attention of the house to the past and present condition
of our steam navy. In 1835 we had 23 small steam-
vessels employed as packets or as docks ard lighters,
and propelled by 4,153 horse-power. In 1811, when the
right hon, baronet the member far Tamworth cam
oe n
into
power, we had 55 steamers of 9,503 horse-power ; and the
let January, 1819, we had 134 steamvemels, some as fine as
any in the world, and of 35,565 horn-power. (Hear, hear.)
That was a list which he wee not ashamed to lay before the
house, as mode of accounting for increased expenditure.
The hon. member for Montrose had first taken the estimates
for 1835, and compared them with those of the present 3ear,
complaining that an increase wasproposed of 7,622,0001.
He (Hr. Ward) had analysed them and had endeevoured to
arrive at a distinct conclusion respecting them. The first item
he found had not existed in 1835, hut for the sake of the great
commercial interests of the country had been since adopted.
Government had organised a conielete system of packets,
which were included in the Admiralty estimates, atthoug
properly the Admiralty had nothing to do with them, being
simply administrators of the will of that house. (!leer.)
The vote for the contract packets was 611,6621.. and the
double line of packets to New York had caused an increase
of 46,0001.; add to this 61,6981. paid to Queen's vessels em-
ployed as packets, and the packets from Holyhead to Dublin,
which would soon commence running, and there would be a
total of 773,0001. fur the contract service. There was besides
181,0001., which, although charged to the navy, property
belonged to the army and ordnance. Then there eta feel
troop ships, wages, de., 25,5151., and 11,0001. for vic-
walling the conviot department, for which his right
hon. friend the Secretary for the Home Department
was properly respo .sible. (Hear, hear.) These, with one
or two other items for provisions in other departments,
would make a deduction of 1,057,000/. from the seven mil-
Lens and a half. Bat, besides all that, there was the dead
weight over which the Admiralty had no control, and which
had been added to repeatedly at tho suggestion of the house.
They could not resist the appeals of old officers ; but, whoa
the sums were put down in the estimates, then fault was
bund with the government. So it was, however, that with
the help of the house the dead weight had amounted to
1
:493,0721. Take this, and the vote for works, which he I
contended should be looked upon as permanent investments, '
take off 100,0001. from the vote of the present year for
repairs of dockyards, and the vote for permanent works
598,6012, and there would be at once a deduction of
3,041,0001. from the effective naval estimates of the year,'
leaving a total amount of effective naval expenditure of
4,683,0271., instead of 7,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) His
entreated them to believe that there was something more ra-
tional in it then his hon. friend the member for Montrose
had represented ; and that for all that had been spent the
country had received valuable consideration. (Cheers.)
Mr. OSBORNE hoped that the house would not be
led away by the eloquent speech of hie hon. friend the
member for Sim:Meld t> imagine that they were merely
togged in a debate on the naval estimates. The hon.
member, in his able statement hail rather forestalled the
labours of The select committee, for if government was so
satisfied with the present enormous expenditure, why refer
the matter to a select committee at all ? He was
convinced that no other minister would have con-
descended to take such a course. He objected to the
increase of the income tax, which, on its original imposition,
was described by Mr. Tierney aa a system of indiscriminate
rapine. (Hear, hear.) But it was :he common practice of
the whigs to rail at taxes when in opposition, and to double
them when they got into power. He feared that the whole
system of government at present carried on was cal-
culated unnaturally to increase the national expenditure.
The system pursued by the Colonial-oflice perhaps more
than any other required examination. The determination
of the peoplJ was tnat there should be cheaper government.
It was his opinion that the expenditure of the country might
be reduced by at least 5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. a sear, with-
out impairing the efficiency of the public establishments.
The appointment of the proposed committee, however, was
a mere shelving of the question. lie entreated the noble
lord to pause before he insisted on pressing his proposition of
an increased income tax. This country had reached the ut-
most limits of peace taxation. (Hear, hear.) Let the go-
vernment take a lesson from what was palming around them.
Let them take warning by what was taking place on the Couti-
nent—where the opposition to the popular feeling in the
prevention of a dinner had involved the destruction of a
uynasty. The best national defences wire to be found in the
hearts and affections of the middle clue. the best mode of
obtaining which was not the imposition of a war tax in time
of peace.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN was not prepared to admit that I
there was any necessity for increasing the income tax, though'
he considered that a well regulated property tax was the
fairest tax that could be imposed. It appeared to him an
extraordinary coulee to appoint a committee to examine into
the expenditure of the country, and, pending the inquiry, to
comae an increase to the burdens of the country, before
it was known whether the maintenance of the public
establishments rendered suck ire suck necessary. (Hear.)
His opinion was that a considerable reduction might be
made in those establishments without injury to the public
service. England had never been strong unless she had
Ireland with her—and it was fear only, and nut • sense of
justice that had induced her to grunt any concessions
to that country. He called upon ministers to say how
the poor of Ireland were to be supported during the ensuing
spring. The poorlaw would be wholly insufficient for the
purpose. in many districts it would absorb the wools of
the property. It was the duty of the government to take
measures for preserving the people of Ireland from starva-
tion, and he called upon them to state what measure, if any,
they were prepared to propose for that purpose. The hen.
iamber concluded by declaring that his best assistance
ahoeld be given to any effort to reduce the expenditure of
the country.
Lord J. RUSSELL could scarcely anderstand the pur-
pose of the hon. gentleman who advocated this motion.
The hon. member for Montrose thought it a matter of re-
proach against the government that they had not, some
time ago, appointed a committee to examine into the ex-
penditure of the country. The hon. member for Middlesex,
en the other band, thought it a matter of reproach
that it should be appointed new, holding it to be an abdica-
tion
of the functions of the government. Then, again, the
hon. member for Limerick bad told them that he was pre- '
pared to resist any increase of taxation, but called on go-
vernment, at the same time, to propose come large grant
of money for the purpose of relieviog Irish destitution, 'saw.
lag ministers to get out of the difficulty as they might. Ile
was at a lose, therefore, to understand the purpose of the pre-
sent discussion. Great fault had been found in the course
of these debates with the speech with which he had intro-
duced the budget, but it was curious enough that not one of
the propositions he had then laid down had been contro-
verted. lie had raid it was the interest of this country to
keep on good terms with France. No one had con-
troverted that proposition, or end disputed that it
was to our interest to remain at pre-ace. (Hear.)
Th., hon. en. tuber for Middlesex, who had not unwind his
iguree, had found fault that he tied stated them with sang
rosci. He (Lord J. Russell) was nut aware that he had
done se. He had stated the figures, and the hon. member
had not denied their accuracy ; but he complained that he
had cot made his statement with that amount of passion and
enthusiasm which, in the hot,. member's opinion, should
have accompanied it. The hon. member wished to know
' fur what purpose the increase in the estimates was made.
The hon. gentleman should remember that there were many
persons in this country who were of a different opinion from
himself, and who complained that our entabliehments had
not been sufficiently increased; that our navy was at too
low a scale ; that our army was insufficient to meet any cud •
ilea contingencies that might occur; that t.c
ordnance was not sufficiently cared for, and that alto.
gether our establishments were not in that state of efficiency in
which they ought to be. To meet this charge, he had thought
it proper to show what had been done, and what expendi-
ture had actually been incurred, to make those establish-
ments effective, and to show, also, that it was not nee, a.ary
to increase them beyond what he had stated. The hon.
member for Middlesex, it would seem, was himself one of
those who was not long since of opinion that our national
defences were insufficient, for beUre Christmas be placed a
notice on the paper of a motion to call the attention of the
house to the state of those defences—(cheers and laughter)
—showing that, in his view, some addition was required.
(" No," from Mr. B. Osborne.) Perhaps the hon. member
merely intended to make a speech, to prove that cough
had been done ; but, if so, the notion was rather an extraer-
dinary one. (Hear, hear.) And he (Lord J. Russell) had
been told that many of the hon. gentleman's constituents
took alarm at that notice, and wrote to hint remonstrating
against what they thought his project of increasing the
armament of the country. (Mr. Osborne, "No.") The
hon. member had however, it appeared, concealed his real
purpose till now, and it was now found that he had no sutra
intention as that attributed to hint. (" Hear," and a laugh.)

He (Lord J. Remelt) must say, however, that the ambiguity
of the hon. member's motion was to some extent the cause of
lis eousidering it nee emery to explain to the house the
means of defence we had, as compared with those of that
country with whom some persons here, and others abroad,
had, without meaning any offence, thought it possible that a
war might ensue. The hon. member for Middlmex thought
government proposed to delegate to a committee that respon-
sibility which properly rested with the ministry as to the
number of men to be voted for the army and navy, In that
respect the hon. gentleman was mistaken. He believed this
committee, like those which had been appointed from time
to time, and formerly were appointed about every ten years
to go through the details of expenditure, would be atteaded
with useful results as satisfying the country that that expen-
diture was actually and properly incurred, and in other
respects as eliciting suggestions fur future economy. But, as
regarded the number of men proposed for the great 'sta.
blishmeuts—the army and navy—the government was
responsible, said he trusted to be able to defend the votes
for she army and ordnance as effectually as hie hon. friend
the Secretary for the Admiralty had defeuded that for the
navy. (Hear.) At all events, lie should not fear to encounter
the discussion upon those votes, or to stand by them.
The bon. member for Limerick had, however, referred to
another and a different subject. In leaking the home
to deal with tbe condition of the people of Ireland, the hue
member had received in a very ill spirit that which was, per.
haps, the greatest effort ever made by any country on behalf
of a part of its population. (Hear.) That effort was not
the doing of the government—it was not the benevolence or
philanthropy of government—hut it was the act of parlia-
ment, and of the Howe of Commons especially, who, in the
most generous manner, voted the money necessary for
averting the consequences of that famine with which Ire.
land was afflicted, which money was spent in what
seemed, at the time, to be the most economical
sad effectual manner, in giving food directly in rations to
3,000,000 of people. (Hear.) And yet the hon. member
talked of the demoralising effect of giving this relief to
people who might else have starved, and for which ho be-
lieved the people of Ireland themselves were grateful.
(Hoar.) But while this was doing, while England and
Scotland were thus coming to the relief of their brethren in
Ireland, what was the conduct of the hon. gentleman ?
(Hear, hear.) What was he doing but endeavouring to
disseminate distrust and disaffection amongst his fellow-
countrymen ? (Loud theirs.) The hon. member
had asked whether parliament would interfere to prevent
the evils of famine during the spring, alleging that the poor
law was wholly insufficient, and that it would be inopera-
tive. He (Lord J. Russell) could not agree that a rate of
35., 45., or even ss. in the pound ought to deter the proprie-
tors of property in Ireland from supporting destitution when
necessary. But he was aware that the law had not been
every where fairly or justly applied. He was reading that
day an extract from an Irish paper of an s lamination that
took place in a court of justice, in which a man was charged
with stealing a sheep from a farmer, who it appeared was
himself receiving out door relief, though poroeseed of
twenty sheep, three or four sows, and a good store of barley
in his haggard, while the accused, who lived in the same
parish, had been ?awed relief, though he and his family
were reduced to ouch a state of starvation that they were dis-
covered eating the stolen sheep in its raw elate. He said
while such • state of things existed—while persons who
were in compastively good circumstances were receiving
that relief which ought to be given to the destitute, and those
who bad the means of contributing to the rate refused to do
so, it was most unjust to sell upon the people of Middlesex
or Berko who had paid their rates and who proadi d foe
thei r own poor to pay an additional tax for the relief of Irish
des itution. (Hear, hear.) The tax fur that purpose must
be enforced from the Irish proprietors themselves, and
to that tax Ireland ears
)loci for the support of its
destitute poor. (Cheers) It was only in very ex-
ceptionable cases—where the property of the country
did not afford the means for the relief of the destitute—that
public or private charity could be called upon to supply its
place. (Hear, hear.) And let him say one thing wore.
Her Majesty was Boole time ego advised by a person whose
memory ho should long r.gard with revereeee, tie late
Archbishop of Canterbury, as it was expected that much
distress would occur iu Ireland this year, to ease a eleeen'e
letter for a collection in the several churches in this country.
That collection, it tees well known, hail not been so suet, as-
ful as the collection of last year, or anything like it. Same
26,0001. had been collected, whtcb was now being divided iu
various unions in Ireland for the relief of children,
for schools, and other relief purposes. But why was not the
amount collected greater ? Beceuse those who had last year
contributed to the extent of 300,0001. or 400,000/. had met
with nothing but invective and insult in return, and they
were disgusted and disheartened at being held out to the
world as bard-hearted and as enemies to the Irish people.
(Hear, hear.) He begged the hon. gentleman, and others
who had mks n the same course, to take some warning to
learn a lesson from these two acts. ( Hear, hear.) From
the first, that there was no indisposition on the part of the
English people to relieve their Irish fellow subjects when in
distress; and from the second example let him learn that vio-
lent invective and passionate harangue a, and libels upon the
English people, was not the way to improve the relations
between the two countries. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR condemned the estimates generally
as excessive.
Mr. WAK LEY conceived that the motion of the hon.
member fur Montrose, to which he begged to recal the at
Nation of the home, was the mot rational and consistent
motion that could be made under existing circumstances;
for if the house were to go on voting money as they had
hitherto done, putting no cheek upon expenditure. this
country would very soon be Misdeed in a state of universal
ruin. Ile keenly felt the force of the lecture of
the hon. Secretary of the Admiralty. Upon him
(Mr. Wakley) at least that lecture should not be
lost. The hon. gentleman had told them that
increase after increase had taken place without any
resistance on the part of the house, and without a single
division. But henceforth he (Mr. Wakley) would adopt a
Gonne of conduct that would nut subject him to such a taunt
sa that. lie was sure that ministers declined to profit by the
generosity of the house, and that the time had arrived when
resistance must be offered to a profligate end extravagant
expenditure. But he asked whether the leader of that
party (Mr. Hume) had not done more for the people than
the whole aristocracy of the country ? Hear, hear.) The
aristocracy were extremely active when dealing with the
national funds, but had never yet shown a disposition to
economise them. A uoble lord had been appointed secretary
to the poor-law commission, but es long as such appoint-
ments were made so lung must the people be content with
extravagant expenditure. He felt great gratitude to the
noble lord at the head of the government for his Jewish
Disabilities Bill, and other measures; but when he saw his
government proposing such extravagant expenditure he
could no longer offer him his support. In fact he thought that
the radical party in that house ought to establish themselves
as a party, and that the hon. member for Montrose ought
that very night to be installed as leader of it. Ile trusted his
boniriend would persist in the motion be had made, and induce
the minhery to come forward with a remodelled budget.
Mr. ROBINSON said it was an absolute delusion to vote
for this motion until the means of msking good the deficiency
in the revenue were pointed out, and he certainly would be
nofirarty
.VACil°Atil.(Cork) would vote for the motion of the hon.
member for hlontrose, believing that if the pulic expendi-
ture were not now reduced, Ireland would soon) be subjected
to the income tax.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD also declared Isis intention to sup-
port the motion, conceiving that they ought not to vote away
the public money until the grounds upon which they were
called upon to do PO were fully understated.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, while he
concurred in the panegyric bestowed upon the hon. member
for Montrose, could not agree in the reasons adduced for sup-
porting his motion. It was argued that the estimates shout
to be submitted entailed great future expenditure, but if the
house would consent to go into committee he should be able
to show that they were estimates of money actually spent.
The house divided—For going into committee 157
Against the committee .. 59-93
On our admission into the gallery we found the house re-
solved into a committee of
SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to
move a vote of 1,100,0001. to defray the expenses of the
Kaffir war. T right hon. gentleman (as far as be could
be heard) took acre view of the grounds upon which the hue.
tilities with the Kaffir tribes arose in the year 1836, and
which were continued until the yea. 1846. The intellieenee
which reached the government did not arrive until the sum-
mer of that year, and it was mon after the secession of the
present government into office that the state of affairs at the
Cape demanded their immediate attention. The intelligence
received was that the burgher guard had been dim red
to their own homes. The e matey was in a state of
difficulty and revolt when Sir H. Pottinger arrived,
who, as governor-general, adopted measuris which were
essential ior the peace of the colony, and which were,
at the . same time, not the were results of caprice.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not
on this orc.si n go into details, b .t he would observe that
he believed teat by the proceedings taken the Chinese coffers
had been reduced, while those of England had been aug
mented. On the acquisition of office by the present govern-
ment they had felt that the expenses of this war ought to be
defrayed out of the colonial treasury. This expecte:ion had
wihappily not been realised, though he believed the first
efforts of the new governor, Sir Henry Pottinger, hod been
directed to that object. The present vote was asked in order
to carry out preceding engagements, and the vote was jug
tified by the documents now on the table of the house.
(Hear, bear.)
Mr. AU ME contended that the house ought to have had
in its possession the entire accounts spin which the vole
proposed wit founded, and he maintained that the house
ought to pause before it acquieseed in the statements which
had been made in support of the motion.
After a few words of explanation b. tween the CHANCEL-
LOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. Ilene,
Mr. V. SMITH supported the amendment proposed, on
the ground that sufficient information as to the origin of
the COM war had not been known to the legislature
Mr. BANKES was decidedly of opinion that the vote
ought nut to be granted at the present moment. A com-
mittee was to be nominated before the rising of the house to
inquire into the navy, army, and ordnance expenditure;
and this item might form a very proper subject for the in-
quiries of that committee. He would, therefore, support the
motion of the hon. member fur Montrose.
Mr. W. MILES said he had understood from the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the public ser
vice required this vote to be immediately adopted. The
country certainly ought. to pay its debts, and then let a MO-
mittee of inquiry investigate the matter afterwards, if that
were thought desirable. Had the governor not done all in his
'power to prevent the plunder and bloodshe I which had been
inflicted on the colonots, he would have been unworthy of
the situation he held. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced in the opportunity of bearing
testimony to the character of the governor. Never had

either • more gallant soldier or a gems humane and con-
scientious man been placed In charge of any colony.
(Hear, hear.) The charges against Sir P. Maitl
Intohod
war, but from his uneilhnirness to involve the
country in such a seated. (Hear, hear.) Understand-
ing that the public convenience required this vote to
be granted, he should support it ; bat its adoption would
not preclude further inquiry. We might well brain to reflect
how large a portion of the world's surface we had now ren-
dered ourselves xv•ponsible for : we were keenly reminded
of it by the vote now proposed, automating to 1,100,0001. ;
and this sum would preliably be followed by others in suc-
ceeding years. Looking to the future, he feared, unless
some great change of system could be devised, that we
might expect the recurrence of wars in that remote colony.
Sir P. Maitland had expremed • similar belief in one it his
despatches. He feared the change adopted 12 cr 14 year+
ago had increased the cost of the colony to thin country ; brit
that change had been adopted from the most philanthropic
motives. The payment of this money would not be in vain
if it led the house to reflect well on the policy of exteniling
our colonial empire. (Hear.)
Mr. IL ELLICE said he would not object to the vote, but
I would impress colonial e house the importance of not longer
treads" these matters lightly. (Hear, hear.) He
differed with the hon. member for Northampton (Mr. V.
Smith) as to the possibility of temporising with the 'natives ;
it was essential that wherever we planted our industry we
should protect it, and do it in a manner worthy the dignity
of a great nation. There was another suggestion he wished
to offer. Why had not the right hon. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, when he knew of this war proceeding, come
down to the house at an earlier period and asked for a vote ?
He ought to have made the hest estimate he could, sod then
the complaint would not have arisen that the house was un-
expectedly called on to vote a large sum, of the expendi-
ture of which they had never before heard. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the vote before the house he would not
SWOPS it, because the government were not accountable for
the war, and because the public service would sutler if funds
were not provided.
Mr. G. THOMPSON did not think that they ought to be
I called on to vote 1,100,0001. without kuuwiug anything
respecting the origin, progress, policy, or character of this
war. The house ought to be allowed time to read the papers
that would be put into the hands of members tomorrow.
Mr. AGLIONBY saw no reason for postponing the vote.
It was the duty of the government to protect the settlers
from the savages and murderers in their colonies. The
I whole of this war had arisen because the late government,
"yielding to a vicious influence in the Colonial-office, hod
set aside the recommendations of Sir B. D'Urban.
lo the despatch which Sir H. Pettieger sent home, he de-
, (dared, in answer to the petition of the settlers, that they
were blameless in what had occurred.
' Lord DUNCAN thought they should he allowed time to
read the papers before they were called on to vote so large a
sum of money.
Alderman SIDNEY thought the motion of the hon. mem-
ber for Montrose rational and consstent. They should not
be called on to vote money in a matter of which they knew
nothing.
Nit. I-LINDLEY said tl.at he had been informed in last
September, by a gentleman who had come from the Cape,
that the war was an excellent thing for the C.pe, because it
awned the expenditure, of a I irge sum of money. That
house ought to have some control over the expenditure of
money. It was not right to spend money without the sane.
Lion of the house, and then come to it and -ay the money
has been expended, and you have nothing to du but to pay.
After a few words from Mr. lIVME,
The committee divided—For the motion 252
Against it
NAVY SUPPLIES.
Mr. WARD then moved a vote of 245,4101. 19s. Id. for
the navy excess in 1846. The hon. gentleman add he had
already explained the importance of this vote. Ile said that
the Admiralty had made complete arrangements whereby
no sum would be expended in future that did not come
within the estimate• for the current year, nor world any
N'urks be catered upon in any dockyard witeuut the previous
cognisance of the house. The hon. gentleman was proceed-
ing with hie details in an inaudible tone, when
Mr. ELLIOTT rose and called the hon. member for Sun-
derland to order, as his voice drowned that of toe hon. se-
cretary for the Admiralty.
After some further converation.
Mr. HUDSON rose and repudiated the idea that he had'
interrupted the hon. member in his statement. He had
been most uncourteously interrupted by the hon. member,
whose name he did not know, and whom he never wished to
know.
Mr. ELLIOTT disclaimed any intention of behaving un-
courteously to the hon. member, but his voice had certainly
prevented him from hearing the statement of the bun. secre-
tary for the Admiralty.
Mr. T. F. BARING said that the vote was a very im-
portant one, and he could not let it pass without some nb.
servation. Last year there was a naval excess of 10,0091.
on • form vote He had made some observations at the
time, but, as all economical observations were in the last
House of Commons, it was " pooh pooh'd " (A laugh.)
This year there was • further excess of 210,000/. ; and he
thought it a course that should be arrested. tle confessed he
was rather struck with the loose mode of transacting business
which seemed to prevail in the Admiralty with respect to
arrears. (Hear, hear.) However, atter the candid confes-
sion of his hon. ft the Secretary for the Admiralty, and
his promise that such things should not occur again, he did
not feel it incumbent on him to make any further observa-

Lion.
The vote was then agreed te, the chairman reported pro-
guts, and the house resumed.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved the second reading of the
Landed Property (Ireland) Bill. The object of the bill was
to enable landed proprietors in Ireland to borrow money for
the improvement of their land from individual., on the same
terms as the set of last year authorised them to borrow it
from the publie.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not
oppose the present stage of the bill, but resumed his opinion
as to the future stages, until he had received a communica-
tion from the board of works in Ireland.
The bill was then read a second time.
TREATY OF ADRIANOPLE, &c.—ADJOURNED
DEBATE.
Mr. ANSTEY said be had received a communication
from the noble lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, to the
effect that he would not he able to fix an earlier day for the
adjourned debate on his (Mr. Anstey's) motion, than We-
nesday next; and although he feared there would be little
chance of its conclusion, he would, in compliance with the
noble lord's wish, postpone it to that date. The order was
then postponed.
ELECTION PETITIONS.
The SPEAKER informed the house that he had received
deters from the agents to the petitions against the rsturns
for Colchester and North Stafford, stating that it was not
their intention to proceed with the mid petitions.
SELECT COMMITTEES ON THE ESTIMATES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pi atponed
until Tuesday next the nomination of the committees on
the navy and miscellaneous estimates.
LAND TAX.
Mr. WAKLEY moved that the petition of G. L. Hutch-
inson, relative to the land tax, be printed with the votes.
Messrs. THORNELY and BILOTIigaTON severally opposed
the printing of the petition, on the ground that the yeti
tioner merely eitight to print his views on the land.tax at
the expense of the public.
Mr. Waxi.Ey persisted in his motion, and the house di-
vided, when forty members not being present, the house ad.
journed at half-paat 12 o'clock.