The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 5, '853.

Mr. DISRAELI begged to ask when the noble lord pro-
posed to state tbetetentions of the government with regerd
to the Win kg ovaromelat of our Indian territories ?
Lord T. RUMELL mid be could not state the meet
day, but as soon as the measure was prepared, be would
state its substance to the house.
EDUCATION.

On the motion of Lord J. lixecar.t., the orders of the
clAy were postponed until after the statement on the subject
of education. The orders were accordingly read and post-
poned; after which

Lord J. RUSSELL said—l now rise, in pursuance of the
notice I have given, to state g Ily the intentions of the
' government with regard to the important subject of eduta-
tion. la doing so, I certainly do not think it necessary to
sok the attention of the house, for I am sure that, however
inadequately I may perform the duty I have undertaken,
the sutject is one so important, and affects so deeply the
morality, the religion, and the future well being of the
Country, that the house will readily give its attention to
any statement which is made, or any proposition of the
government, on a subject of this nature. I shall begin by
' stating what has been the course taken with respect to the
education of the poorer classes in this country from
the commencement of the establishment of public
day schools. Those schools were commenced in the begia-
niog of this century. At that time two persons oho bud
paid great attention to the subject of education, and who
are deserving of commemoration both for their intelligence
and their laudable efforts in that cause, Joseph Lancaster
and Dr. Bell, were instrumental in causing a large establish-
ment of day schools for the education of the you-er classes.
Both those persons proceeded on the system of having mo-
nitors hi the schools chosen from among the boys attending
them, by whom lemons should be given to those children
who were nut sufficiently advanced to obtain the entire at-
tention of the masters. It was believed,and indeed it has been
the fact, that by this means a larger number of children
would be educated than could be attained by adopting the
method of having a greater number of schools each of them
having a separate master. But no doubt the system was
exceedingly defective, for it only used the instrumentality
of tomes who were themselves but little adverted in
learning, and who had no peculiar aptitude fur teaching,
and who could not give instruction in the same rapid and
intelligent manner as persons who had devoted themselves
to instruction were capable of doing. A difference also
arose on a topic of a most exciting nature with
regard to the system adopted pursuant to the
advice of these two persons. The system of Lan-
caster was adopted by a society, called the British and
Foreign School Society, which was established in 1805, and
proceeded on the principle of teaching the Bible to all the
children, and that was the distinctive feature of the system.
The King, George 111., gave his immediate and liberal
patronage to this plan. Many persons who were anxious
for the promotion of education, among them the Duke of
Bedford, my father, combined in placing themselves at the
head of institutions of this kind. Lord Brougham, Sir
Samuel Romilly, and many others, aided them by their
ability and support. At the same time, while the establish-
ment of schools was promoted, there arose an objection
among members of the established church, that although
the Bible was taught in the schools, no instruction was
given in the furmularies of the church of England ; and ac-
cordingly et a later period, about the year 1811, I think, a
society, called the National Society, was formed for the
purpose of giving instruction not only in the Bible, but in
the Catechism, and a rale that the children attending the
schools should also attend the established church on Sun-
days was established at the same time. There was of course,
geeing this dill:J..llw of opinion that existed, immediately a
hot contest with regard to the principles on which the
schools should be conducted. I will not enter into the
merits of that controversy further than to say that we to
this day feel its effects, and while it is admitted that each
of these societies has contributed largely to the
cause of education, yet feelings were produced by
the contests of those days which render it now
difficult, if not impossible, to unite the poorer classes in one
general system of education. On the one hand, the National
Society, connected as it is with the established church,
insisted on the children's learning the chatechism, and on
their attending the church to which they belonged ; and to
this the dissenters conscientiously objected. On the other
hand, the dissenters, forced as it were into opposition to the
system, called together great bodies and formed schools on
their own principles, and this system was organised in a
manner, which enabled them to bring great power to bear
against any plan of education which those societies which were
chiefly composed of dissenters, did not approve of. The edu-
cation carried on by these two societies produced a number
of wheels all over the country, and caused a great increase in
the means of education. In the year 1831 or 1832, a pro-
posal was made for the first time to the House of ommons
by the government to Lord Grey, that the state should aid
the education of the p weer classes, and at the same time it was
proposed to grant 10,0001. a year to each of those two so-
eleties in aid of their efforts. This plan was continued
until the year 1839. The Treasury conducted the aid they
gave according to the rules which, as the Board of Trea-
sury, it was incumbent on them to adopt ; and they gave
the grants according to the means which had been volun-
tarily subscribed, and distributed them in proportion to
those sums, and took no note of and paid no regard to the
kind of education which was adopted. In 1839 the govern-
ment of Lord Melbourne proposed a change in the system.
It VIM proposed that a committee of the Privy Council
should be formed, which committee of the council should
take a more enlarged and discriminating view of the busi-
ness of education. Holding at that time the office of
House Secretary, I wrote a letter to the Marquis of Lans-
downe, and that letter and the answer to it was laid before
parliament, as showing the ground of the proceedings then
taken by the government. It was intimated in that letter by
sommand of her Majesty that it was the wish of the Queen
that the youth of her kingdom should be religiously brought
upend at the same time that the ril hts °Cr:mimetic. should be
respected. Among other pro s for increasing the means
nima of al= r and furthering t is object it was proposed to
i
found normal or training schools, in which persons of
different religious persuasions might be educated and at the
same time that a chaplain of the church of England should
instruct those who were members of that church. The
proposal excited considerable apprehension and alarm, and,
after much threatened opposition, it was withdrawn by the
government ; but the proposal to obtain a grant to be
placed for distribution in the hands of a committee
of the Privy Council was persevered in and sanctioned
by a narrow majority of the House of Commons.
In the year 1646 a further step of considerable
importance was taken. That step was an endeavour to
improve in a great degree the quality of education. In
stating in the year 1839 the views the government took
with regard to education, I declared that in their opinion
the main object to be had in view was the improvement of
the character, knowledge, and general condition of the
iindeedasostee, for as sehoolinaster is so is the school. Un-
less Me meld so improve the character and condition in the
sieseissater we could hope for no great Improvement in
the education of the poorer classes. (Hear, hear.) The
adman which were then agreed to, in 1846, were
Anwar& the foundation of the grants proposed
to Oil house; those grants were carried into effect;
and I do not know that since that time there has been any
great change in the matter. The house will thus perceive
that the education of the poorer classes in this country has
been conducted, generally speaking, by the voluntary
efforts of the great religious communions; that they have
had the 'mistime of the state, partly to increase the quail-
Itity, hut more especially to improve the quality of that
education ; bat that the state, as a reeurrence
I. a view of the history of them grants would
prove to be the fact, has not materially interfered
with the nature of the instruction. Great Improvements
' have been made—l may say a great revolution has been
accomplished—in the instruction given since the commence-
ment of the schools under Lankaster and Bell v but those
improvements have taken place almost altogether, at the
suggestion of the various societies who managed the edu-
cation for the bodies over which they presided—or it has
been the managers of the schools who have in-
troduced such improvements. But, sir, what I wish
now to call the attention of the hones to, is
the point at which we have mind with respect to the edu-
cation of the country generally ; what it is in amount, in
its character, and in its nature; before I proceed to men-
tion the further steps it may be desirable to take. I re-
ceived only yesterday a statement from the Registrar-Ge-
neral with respect to the number of schools, and the num-
ber of children receiving education in this country. This
return comprises the public day schools and the private day
schools; the number of both sexes belonging to the
schools, and the actual number attending the
schools on the 31st of March, 1851. The total number
of day schools is 44,898; public day schools, 15,473; pri-
vate day schools, 29,420. The number of persons of both
sexes attending in the day schools is 2,108,473; those at-
tending public slay schools, 1,407,569; those attending pri-
vate day schools, 700,000. The number of both sexes at-
tending on the 31st of March, 1851, was 1,754,976; of
which there were at the public day schools, 1,115,237; and
at the private day schools, 639,739. It is stated in this
table that the proportion of scholars on the books is 11.76
per cent., or of 1 scholar to 8i persons. The proportion of
those attending to those on the books is 33 per cent. ;
or that s.6ths of those who are on the books attend.
It also appears from this account that the number of scho-
lars in what is called private schools does not average m re
than 27 ; but that in the public schools, with which we have
more immediately to do, they amount to 93 ; and we may,
therefore, take 93 scholars as the average of pessons attend-
ing at these public day schools. I will now state, from
different sources, that which I believe is a very correct esti-
mate with regard to these schools, of the number of per-
sons, boys and girls, who belong to each of the communions.
The number, it will be found, differs Irons the total
numbers returned by the Registrar General; and this lilly
arise partly from there being many of these schools not con-
nected with any society, and partly from the date at which
these accounts I will now read were taken, being previous
to 18.51, it being obvious that since they were taken there
may have been an increase to explain the discrepancy. The
number of the schools of the church of Englaud as meet.
Wised by the National Society, in 1817, I think, was 17,015.
The British and Foreign Society's Schools were 1,500 ; the
Wesleyans, 397 ; the Congregational Schools, 89 only; the
Roman Catholic Schools, 585; the Ragged Schools, 270 :
total 19,1116. The number of scholars, of the Church of
England, was 955,86-5 ; of the British and Foreign Society,
2'2.1,000; of the Weshyans, upwards of 38,000; of the
Congregational Schools, 7,000; in the RUEOII/1 Catholic
Schools, 31,000; in the Ragged Schools, 20,000: total,
, 1,231,077. I will now state, as faro may be ascertained, the
i incomes of those different religious bodies appliid to the pur-
poses of schools. In the church of England schools, in 1817, the
sum was .317,0811. ; in the British and Foreign Society's
schcols, 161,2501.; in the Wesleyan schools, 27,3471.; in
the CongregationA schools, 4,9u11.; (with regard to seve-
ral of these congregational schools the sum is not given so
completely as in the others) ; in the Boman catholic scisoole

16,0101. • and in the sagged schools, 20,000/. ; total,
1.046,6791. In reckonieg the sources of income it as been
calealeted that the local endowments are about 69,5371. ;
the local subscriptions, 366,8231. ; the local eollec-
! time, 114,1001.; and the school pence, 413,0141 ;
and from other sources 83,0761. I should state that in
none of the accounts of income, except in those of the
Roman esthetic schools, is there any sum placed to the ac-
count of private schools, which are entirely supported by
the contributions of individual persons who wholly niain•
loin these schools. It is 2,0001. for the Roman catholic
schools; and I have thought I should make so estimate a
good deal under the mark if I lidded 61,0001. from other
communioas to the other sources ; and the sum then ap-
applied to the maintenance of these schools would then be
1,100,0001. Now there is one sum in these sources of income
to which I would wish particularly to call the attention of
the house, via., the 413,0001. from school pence. I have no
doubt that is an underestimate; and that if we were to
say that 500,0001. is contributed by school pence wo should
not be relying on ea excessive estimate. And I think the
house will feel, considering that halt a century ago there
were only Sunday schools which cauld be called public
schools for the poor, that the efforts made by the pour
themselves, as appears by what I have stated,
are striking and likewise satisfactory. (Hear, hear)
That the pour and working classes of this country shoal
contribute milt million sterling a year towards the ex-
, penile of the instruction of their children, I think the house
will consider a most gratifying fact. (Cheers.) I confess
that it is a fact which induces me to believe that the steps
we ought now to take should be such as would strengthen
and improve the system of education which has
grown up chiefly by voluntary efforts rather
than set up anything in its place, which, while disturbing
the existing system, might fail in supplying its place by
anything like an equal scheme for the support of the in-
structiou of the poor. (Loud cries of „Hear, hear.") At
the same time I think we are bound to consider, while
large sums are thus given, and while there are a great num-
ber of persons who receive instruction, that a great part of
this instruction is deficient and inadequate, and that with-
out disturbing the existing system, we may still do
much to develop and to improve it. (Rear, hear.) I
will state to the house what has occurred, chiefly under the
minutes of 1846, hut partly before those minutes were
issued. I have already stated that the plan which was in the
contemplation of the government of 1831—et having one
training school under suite direction and control—did nut
meet with public favour, and was not persevered with
The consequence was,thc erectionof a great number of train-
ing schools in different parts of the country, the greater
portion of them belonging to the church, but others to other
denomination; and these institutions have proved of the
greatest value and utility. Indeed, it is impossible to deny
—what is said by one of the most intelligent of the inspec-
tors appointed by the government—that in many respects
the dispersion of the pupil teachers and of the apprentices
under the present minute, and according to the present sys-
tem, has an advantage over a system which would combine
in one, two, ur three training schools all those who are about
to be educated as schoolmasters. The plan adopted, and
now is force, is this. Ose of the boys or girls, as the case
may be, who shows intelligence and capacity for teaching,
is retained as a pupil in the school. The pupil teacher is
retained for live years in that capacity ; .-nil a sum is paid
from the grants voted by this house, and applied by the
committee of council, beginning at 101. and rising to 201.,
before the papil teacher leaves the school. There is then
an admission to the training school or college,
as some of those training schools are called;
and the school teacher becomes a Queen's scholar,
and fur two years 201. in one year, and 25/. iu the
next year, is devoted to the purpose of enabling such
Queen's scholar to become a schoolmaster or school
teacher. For this purpose not only is the best special in-
struction given, but an opportunity is afforded to those
pupil teachers and Queen's scholars to show, by practical
example, their capacities ter teaching. In this
way a large number of them are educated pro-
perly and specially for the purposes of ful-
filling the office of schoolmaster— an office which
long ago I declared in this house was out held!
in sufficient estimation—(cheers),—but which is now rising '
in the just estimation of mankind—(cheers),—and whiett ts
certainly oneof the most sacred and responsible offices which
a man can hold. (Cheers.) I must say, I think it an ad-
vantage, with regard to these pupil teaches, that they come
from families scattered over the country, some of
them of the middle orders, same of them be-
longing to the working-classes, who have a pride,
and a just pride, in seeing that their children by
dint of the intelligence they show, by dint of
industry in learning, and by dint also of the religious and
moral conduct which they evince, may obtain from the
masters of schools, and from the inspectors appointed by
the government, honourable evidence of their fitness for
the office of teacher. (Hear, hear.) Since 1811 up to 18,51
it appears that the total outlay for training schools was
3'53,4021.; the grants made by parliament 137,6231-;
the income of twenty-one training schools in POI was
44,0001., the annual grants at that time being 4,334!. On
the whole, however, 40 of these training schools have been
established, and the number of persons educated as pupil
teachers has much increased since that time. In 1852 the
total expenditure ujider the Committee of Council was
188,0001., solely for the purposes of the improvements of
training schools and gratuities to schoolmasters; andspt
is in that way, I think, very great good may be done.
I now then conic to the question—the question which has
been discussed with great ability, and has excited great in-
terest throughout the country—what we should do with
respect to this system ? Shall we continue it, improving its
efficacy, augmenting the amount of aids given by the state ?
Shall we abandon it altogether? Shall we adopt another
system in place of it? (Hear, hear.) I will take these two
last alternatives before I consider the propositioa which it
will be my duty to lay before the house. It is said
by persons of very considerable talent, and who
have thrown great light on the discussion, that it
is not the duty of the state to interfere at all in the
religious and moral training of the people; that that is a
matter which ought to be left entirely to voluntary efforts,
and to those who choose to undertake religious instruction.
I own I never could subscribe to the reasoning by
which that view is supported. (Hear, hear.) That
question, however, was argued very fully in 1847.
This house decided, by a very considerable ma-
jority, in favour of the aid that was then sought
by the government for the purpose of promoting edu
cation. (Hear, hear.) Since that time it has not ap-
peared to me that the opinion of the house has been changed,
and certainly it has not appeared that the country agrees
with those who support what is called the voluntary system.
But there is mother system proposed for adoption
as a system which ought to influence the •state in its de-
cision on this subject. I mean that which is proposed for
the establishment of what are called secular schools. The

scheme is developed by many writers, with great authority by
Mr. Coomb, and the proposition is this—that very imper-
fect views are taken with regard to religious subjects, and
that very often those rules which the Almighty has
laid down t r oar conduct in this life are far
from being followed, ore wilfully or blindly set
at naught, and that it is the Waimea of the schoolmaster
to teach those laws of social economy and of physiology by
which the youth ot this kingdom may bo better instructed
so as to conduct themselves without danger of those courses
of vice into which too many of them fall. Bat I think it
will be obvious to the house that that is a proposal differing
essentially from the original scheme of secular education.
(Hear, hear.) The original plan is is give tem-
jegal, or secular, instruction only in schools, sad
is leave religion to the professional ministers of
soliglon. But this second view of the subject is, that there
I* a national theology which should be taught in schools,
although Christianity is not to be taught in those schools.
Z, hear.) That is a view more extensive, and un-
ISTedly more dangerous, than the primary one. (Hear,
hear.) My belief is, that the people of this country have
acted with a right instinct when they have, by
their exertions, by their associations, by the sub-
scription of their money, by the devotion of their
time, and of the time of their children, declared
that there shall be religious training in their schools, and
that that religious training shall comprise all the great doc-
trines of Christianity. (Cheers.) I, therefore, sir, could
not, nor ceuld the present government be a party, to any
plan of substituting the secular system of teaching for that
which is at present in force. (Cheers.) I consequently
arrive as the question, What can be done under the
present system ? I do not think, owing to those
difficulties which I mentioned at the outset of my
observations, that it would be possible to unite throughout
the country persons of differeut religious communions in
one distinct plan. There it obviously a very great difficulty
with respect to those requirements that are made by the
National Society on behalf of the established church, and
the counter requirements which are naturally made by the
dissenting bodies on behalf of their own children.
There is, it appears to us, one kind, one sort of community
in this country which might obtain the means of supporting
schools by rate. I allude to those towns which have a cor-
porate organisation, which under act of parliament or by
ancient eliarter have a coporate council who manage the
concerns of the town. In towns of this kind there is not
any necessity for establishing schools of one kind. There
are in those towns generally schools of the various com-
munions, all of which receive some support from the
minutes of the committee of Privy Council, or which might
receive such support. It appears to us, therefore, that it
is possible at all events to give power to the corpo-
rations, the municipal councils of such town to vote a
rate, for the purpose of improving education in such
towns. But in so doing, we should think it necessary to
impose certain conditions, in order to prevent the evils to
which I have referred. In the first place, we think it
would be right that two-thirds of the town council should
agree in the imposition of such rate. If it were a majority,
and that were a small majority, it would give rise to
attempts to overturn the vote, and probably cause dissen-
sion in the town. But, if two-thirds of the representatives
of the community give a vote in favour of the imposition of
the rate, it would probably be the general sense of the town.
In the nest place, we think it necessary that the
rate should be applied, not to establish schools in
substitution of the former schools, but in aid of the volun-
tary efforts of individuals, and in aid of the school-pence
given by the parents of the children. We shall propose
some such scheme as this, that a rate may be applied to pay
2d. in the week, if the scholars provide ed. ; er if 4d. were
contributed from other sources. We shall propose like wise
that the 'snails a hich shall receive that assistance shall be
the schools which under the minutes of council might receive I
assistance, and that the power of the town council should r,
uo further than the appointment of a committee ,which ship', id
distribAr the sum according to the opinion ot the com-
mittee. The committee might be formed partly oe mem-
bers of the town council, partly of other pinup' resident
in the town, who would elicit accurate inforr.,ati„, with
regard to the schools, and see that all the conditions re-
' paired hy the Mate were complied with it. those schools. I
, lust ?a.? th..t I still propose to OPl'. Up- :Lave this evening

to bring in a bill to carry into effect these provisions. We
propose that in these schools the parent shall have the
power of withdrawing his child from the religious instruc-
tion if he should object, but it is obvious that the parent,
on the one hand, would not send his child to • school
where the religious instruction would be repugnant; and
that, on the other hand, the school which has A strict rule
that every child should have religious instruction would
refuse to receive such child. Therefore, all that can be
done by a clause of this kind would be to lay down the
g I principle. Seeing that such a plan could nut be
adopted generally in the kingdom, and for this plain rea-
son, that for many parishes in the country there could he
only oae school, we propose, by means which have been
under consideration, which have not been yet fully ma-
tured, to allow in certain instances, in places which are nut
municipal corporations, a certain sum per head for the
cleildrea attending the school. It would be necessary
to confine any such grant to those schools where
the schoolmaster has obtained a certificate, but
as I have said, the provisions of that minute base not been
fully matured. When it has it shall be laid before this
house, and this house, before coming to a vote on the sub-
ject, will have the opportunity of seeing it. The committee
of council have considered on the propriety of makirg ad-
ditional grants ter building in some pour places, where the
is the greatest difficulty en obtaining a suilicieut sum ter
establishing a school. I should say that the sehouls, tale.
log the country generally, may be dieiled into three ,at-
ferent conditions—one, where the education ie already
sufficient, and where it is of sufficient quality ; the next,
where there is nut sufficient in quantity or mquality ; and
the third, where education has been entirely neg.
lemma The first class is already considerable, gad
is increasing. The third class is, I trust, certainly
not very large, but it is the second class which is the most
important aad the largest class of the *kola country, and,
therefore, requires the utmost aid and assistance. Sir, I
have now stated what is proposed to be done by the bill
with regard to a rate, and by 'Mantes in regard to building
and assistance, but there is a subject of the greatest import-
ance upon which a bill has already been introduced to the
house on various occasions, and therefore it is right that I
should state generally the evil, and the proposed remedy,
but it will be unnecessary fur me to go into any details ea
that subject. I mean the very large anaemia which has been
left by charitable bequests, and which is now the income of
public charities. (Hear, hear, hear.) noble friend
the Lord President of the Council, will ask to iutro-
' duce a bill into the other house of parliament con-
taining the views of the goeernmeut on this subject. I trust
that to whomever that power may be given, ur whatever
may be the extent of thou powers, that we phial he able
otter ten years of attempted and frustrated legislation, that
we shall be able in the course of the present year to legis-
late on a subject of this vast importance iu a way to improve
the distribution and management of these charities. It is
proposed that charities not having au income above IX
a-year shall be referred to the cuun.y courts, lead those
above 3dl. shall go to the Master of the Rolls or the Vice-
Chancellor, who will have special powers entrusted to him
on this subject. I have now stated generally what arc the
views of the government upon this question of the education
of the working-claws, and of the poorer clams in the
'country. The sum that will be asked will appear
In the votes, and we shall then be able to explain
the minutes which we shall have adopted, and it will be
for the House of Comments to say whether they will grant
the sum. There are some other topics upon which I wish
to touch, because they are akin to this, and are matters of
very great interest, though I propose not to go into them
at any length. The one is that the speech of her Majesty,
delivered at the commencement of this season, has occu-
pied the attention of government. The earnest delibera-
tion of parliament was requested on the subject of science
mud of arts, and it was proposed by the Board of Trade
that the sums hitherto granted for the department of
schools of design, and for purposes of science, should be
united under one department, t t be celled the department
of Science and of Art in the Board of Trade. Without
any very large expenditure it will be round that there
will be the means of opening museums fir seieenific objects,
and likewise a great museum of art, which fee the present
will be placed in Malboteagh House. There aill likewise
be the means of giving instruction on questions relating to
science, art, and manufactures, so as to improve art as ap-
plied to 'he manufactures of the country. Dr. Lyon Play-
fair will be appointed to the scientific and her. Cole to the art
department, and under their care and superintendence it is
hoped that great advantage will be derived in both these
respects. What immediately concerns that which I have
had to state to the house on the present evening is that it
is proposed for the department of art, that, in-
stead of sending to certain schools in the coun-
try which had grants, and which will continue
to receive grants from this department the particular forms
and models, the best of the drawings and models shall be
furnished as parts of those grants at half price, and applied
for the purpose of improving their pupils in drawing and in
a knowledge of the art of design. It is a subject to which
very great attention has becalpaid in many of the schools in
the country, and it is one in which great progress has been
made. Sir, I said that I would state on this occasion what
were the general views of the government with regard to
the reports of the commissioners who were appointed by
the crown en the subject of our two universities. The house
is well aware that those commissioners have made reports
of a most valuable kind, stating in great detail the history
of those two universities, giving a great deal of evidence of
a most instructive nature, sad themselves suggesting vari-
ewe reforms in the universities. I will not state any par-
ticular scheme which it is the intention of the government
to adopt. Oa the contrary, the government are of opinion
that they would not fulfil their duty in the best manner if
they proposed any particular scheme for the adoption of
parliament until the matter had Leen much further consi-
dered, and until the universities had had the opportunity of
giving at once their suggestions, their observations, and
adopting such measures as they may think desir-
able to adopt on this subject on the changes
recommended. Speaking of the University of Ox-
ford, in the first place there are some points on which
the commissioners have touched on which I think it is as
well to state the views of the government. One subject
with regard to Oxford which is of the highest importance
is the constitution of the government of the university
itself. 'We are of opinion that a very considerable change
is required in the constitution of that government. (Hear.)
We think it desirable that there should be a greater power
of introducing into the governing body of the university
persons in the situation of professors or engaged in teaching
in the university or in the several colleges. What should
be the particular form of that governing body, as I have
already stated with regard to suggestions generally, we do not
pretend to decide. What we say ie,it is en object to which
our attention will be directed, upon which we shall be
ready to receive any suggestion which may come from the
University itself ; but if those suggestions either do not
some, or if they should fail to meet what we think is re-
quired, it would then be necessary to come to parliament on
the subject. (Hear, hear.) There is another matter upon
which our opinion is no len decided, with regard to prin-
ciple at least, and that is a mere full and free admission to
the teaching of the University. gear, hear.) My belief
is, that these universities were intended tobe andought tobe
educational institutions for the benefit of the country, and
that those objects ought to be fulfilled more completely
than of late years they have been. For this purpose I be-
lieve it: will be necessary that there aborts' be apowcr of ad-
mission and of getting the teacbiage of the university and
el enjoying its privileges other than belonging to and re-
siding in the colleges. With regard to the recommenda-
tions of the commissioners of the university of Oxford and
the different recommendations of the commission for the
university of Cambridge as to which should be taken on
this subject, I will not now pretend to decide. Any
change which shall effect the object, and which shall effect
it without interfering with the discipline of the university,
because that must be taken into account, will be considered
by us. Another evil, as we conceive it, in the present state
of the university of Oxford, is the amount of restriction
which is placed on the attainment of fellowships and other
honours and emoluments. Many of these restrictions, it is
true, owe their origin to the statutes or the will of the
founder, but we have to consider that if these statutes and if
these wills were to be literally obeyed, we should not have
the present state of the universities, bat- a state very dify
ferent, and one which it would be impossible to allow.
Aarther matter deserving the greatest consoleration, and
which the commission both for Oxford and Cambridge pro-
pose, is that all the restrictions as to place of birth should
be abolished. Ido not say whether that would be fit. All
that I say is that merit and industry and ability should have
their due reward when applied to a subject of such a
nature. I should say further, with regard to another
topic, that a greater part of some of the income and revenue
of the colleges should be devoted to the purposes of
instruction, to giving additional income to the pro-
fessors, or hi some other way made conducive to
instruction in the university. No doubt we must keep
in mind on this subject, as on others, the trusts which have
been crested. At the same time, Ido not think it is possi-
ble to lose sight of the times in which many of these foun-
dations acre made, and the views which were entertained
by those who founded them—views which were entertained
naturally and properly, according to the belief of those
times, and perhaps according to the circumstances of those
times, but which no longer apply to the present time. Fur
instance, it was thought at one time that it was most desire-
ble that studious men, perhaps of the ecclesiastical profession,
should devote their time to study and to prayers, and that
they should remain in seclusion from the rest of the world.
Far be it from me to say that they who thought thus took
a mistaken view. I believe that the time when no man's
house was safe, when armed men were constantly meeting
in the plains and valleys of this country, and when there
was no security for lite or property—i believe that the
sacred character which was given to these institutions ena-
bled men thus secludei, to preserve those aorta of learn-
ing, those peat classical work: which at the time of the
revival of letters 'sere found in the monastries and con-
vents, and which amidst the din of arms and amidst that
state of ignorance which might have led to barbarians, kept
alive the sacred flame from which we have derived our eine.
ligation. (Lot id cheers.) Far be it from me, then, to say
that thous tet en judged unwisely, still less that the course
they had Wien was not beneficial ; but the circumstances
of the proteent day are entirely altered; and those men who,
animated by a love for learning, established those founda-
tions would probably if they lived in these times be
the first to provide instruction of another kind.
(lieu, hear). There is a view likewise which they might
have entertained with regard to the localities to which they
eterffined their bequests. It might very well be, that a was
of property seeing that Lis county was in a state of 0%-
ranee, and entirely devoid of letters or science, might
thought that the foundation in the University of Oxford
and Cembridge of a fillowthip devoted ter the iubabitants of
the locality, would turn their wands to the &munition of
learning, and so lead to a general increase in education, aad
eivilizetion. (Hear, hear.) I do sot say that that was sa
unwne view ; but what I say is, that the present elate
cf
our commaaicatiou, and the gemmed dilfusiou of ancaeeitse

;ty
_

I

re, as the wintry, render that which might not have been
ee the',, exceedingly unwiee at the present moment.
re•.,:„. ,ear), These then arc four of the objects which we
1-0:1 endeavour to keep in view with regard to the Uni-
i,; °mord : —One t. the improvement of the govern- I
gen— v i
W 4, another the larger admission of students
, Nriging to a particular college—the third is the
wit,'
oval or ma°.bedews of the restrictions which now exist
yes
Ina
re,cad the e Moment.' a the rewards soil honours
gi in particular counties or localities ; and the
eery pan applicatioe of some part of the endowments and
..„,,„ete of the colleges to the purposes of instruction in the
isiirlceesee' which ale not now employed for any purposes
owaseetioa in the universities whatever. (Ilear, hear.)
slither object. which we thank we should have in view is
Nat the teisowthips which a.• obtained by students of dis-
tie,•. • tuned not be held for life ; but that they should
be heffi only fur *certain p. riod, so that there may be a con-
sot( stimulus to exertion nett oat to the etudeuts ia the
Ilea, hear.) I will not go into the mam.
isc•
i.lit:iLs natal have been made by the commissioners
be the l'nietruty of Cambridge. They a ea:maned in •
that those restrictions which I have mem-
os, lA, old as Waiter raja', but they state that the uni-
th -n it haii eenciustly from time to time been endes-
• el eit its institutieas to the present state of the
rT. ....twat they espi et further improvements will
jr..le-en el, i• the mot direction. They say it would be
*great toi•fortasie to the University of Cambridge if it
e,,r; led; short of al, that is required of it by the most ea-
ue!seieJ siew of public attairs; and the greatest advantage
if
rople of this country. At the mime time, with • the
eel as t.i, lc in the university to which they belong, they
slate the) ate hippy to think that stab has been the case sad
will °Mamie to be the cue ; hut, at the same time, they
earn, their firm belief tnat the interpusitian of paths-
aunt gal be required to creosote the University of Cam-
bolo to Malta ell those reforms which, in their opiumw,
might to be made. (lieu, h. are) Now, sir. Im iy Van-
ier. ismylast the persons whom t advised the crown to
linnet apes the tonlati,atolli of Ostord and Cambridge
were Mee ,f very great distinctien. They were men wit I
etten led those etas. rsith .1, and had attained the
greatest hei.ears—come of them in science, sod others for
close-seal leaning. They appruathett the subject with all
Nat revenant for thew* institutions which such men were
re, to have ; when each men advise such extensive
alterable* I dusk it in • ; root that parliament, without
whams, mud without being liable to any charms of indis-
ev," may, with every caution, and considering every
gilthutty, properly legislate for the improvement of the
of O'Neil and Cambridge. (Cheers.) I trust
I Lite male it cleat to the heave teat we shall sot propose
et
the present tame, or without giving lad means to the
unittPl.3l/ to wander all that they ought to do ;
bat at the .ame time that we shall keep in view this sub-
If the univenitits adept and carry into I Ifect as far
Wynn the recosaraindatioes which have been made, and
app., t parliament to greet them powers still further to
prey them out, I shall be happy to leave to them the con-
egemation ; but if they slieu:.l not etc so, and if there should
be penes. who are stall reetr.,ined by their prejudices from
wiling thin reefed alterations, I think that it is our duty
al a government not to hesitate to bring in thee* measures
"Aid we think to be desireble. (Cheers.) And now, sir,
bev:eg ventured to troub:e the house upon these important
se),• ctc, I el that, wide es is the field. which I have had
to :i a; II&S bays quite impressible for me to give an
adi oat,- aotem to the boost, either of the present state of
the piestion or the messing, which the government mean to
y. sr; but I have a firm b, lief that the people of this coun-
try. who themselves have founded these institutions—that the
pec,,,, of this country, who in the course sit the last hen
nanny have eirried out day schools and the instructioa of
the poorer classes to suck en extent as I bare shown you,
will themselves supply any Ladequacy ; and will even
sepply any defects that may he found in our lewislation. 1
fn: that with respect to thew great and very important
seteens, that will happen that we have seen happen in the
material world, end in physical science. We have seen the
vapour which pawed away unnoticed and disappeared, eon-
torts! late the means of giving a brilliant light to our
sweets and towns. We have anti forces of nature which
were once reasideresl to be only noxious' and destructive em-
ployed for the purpose" of giving in a few moments intelli-
rue which a Notary ago required weeks and even months
to celery. We have seen the wonders of phisical science,
which Wealth even the age in which we live ; and I feel
persuaded that whatever to be the state of society in this
country at present, there is a power which will draw from
the destructive elements of society the means of establishing
relation anal morality on • still firmer basis, and which
will make that religion and morality conducive to the per-
manence of our sacred institutions. (Cheers.) I feel that
this is even a still nobler task, is even a still greater achiev-
Meet than those wonders which the acquisition of science
have ambled us to see. (Cheers.) Imploring this house
to pay the utmost attention to the subject, and to take no
words of mine as sufficient for the measure which I have to
propose, but begging them to keep in view those objects
ulna which the future happiness anal welfare of this
wintry must depend, I shall beg leave to introduce the
bill. (hoed cheers.)
IIr.EWAItT was sure that the house and the country
must be very deeply indebted to the noble :oral, far the com-
prehensive views upon the momentous subject of education
to which he had given expression ; but he was sorry to
observe that the noble lord's speech pointed rather to some
great amendment fur the future, than to any great im-
Provement at the present day. He was sorry that the aohle
url had not taken into cins:deration the large public
schools..

remarked that as they had put an end to this
transportation of music. they must provide some means,
either of taking care of them in this country or of reouciug
their number. Now he looked upox • proper plan of
really tuitional instruction, as the beat and surest means of
effecting the latter and more desirable of these obj.cts; and
he was therefore very sorry to find that the noble lord
'topped short of the vary means by which generality could
be gives to education. The noble lord had truly stated
that it was very hard to punish men for breskiug the law,
which they had never right them to °tame ; and yet
the noble lord repudiated the only scheme by which educa-
tion could be usiversally diffused over the country. The
utile lord had failed to INe the distinction between social
and mood education. la truth, there were two clams of
men in this counter. who were charged with the duty of
instructing the people—schnolmosters and clergymen; and
there was no reason why the principle of the division of
lablor should not apply in this, as well as in all other
matters. All that • schoolmaster could be required
to do was to fit his pupils for the ordinary busires
of and to maids them good citizens ; but their instruc-
Mao in religious toilets ought to be left to the clergymen of
thus various penurious. (Hear, hear.) He should be glad
to have any property that he might poisons taxed to support
schools; and, indeed, he considered that every acre, aad
all the property of the country, ought :to be made to con-
tribute its quota. His objection to the noble lord's bill was
that it was only a half measure after all, although the sub-
ism was one of the most vital importance.
Mr. M. OIBSON said it would be premature to offer
my opinions gem the plan propounded by the noble lord
lord they►helium the hill itself, and bad an opportunity
ficensidering ite previsions ; but inasmuch as, with other
Mmaben, he MAWS engaged in inquiring before a com-
mittee of the hose into the practicability of supporting
schools of a imeneinational character is towns governed
by maaltipid a, be could have wished that the
gable lard bed any legislation upon that MINNS
ISti: the ripest of that committee had been laid berme Ms
Muse; breams he believed that it would be found to elm-
Mia seam very valuable information on the question. He
my Mich agreed with his bon. friend (Hr. Hume): bat
be was is anxious that esemethlag should be dose, that be
meld net throw my obstacle in the way of any
pima. Nevertbalme, be doubted extremely whethee they
meld MOW IS this attempt to transfer the duties of the
reify of various permissions to the town-emu%
Be my men doubted whether they would fled two-thtrds
de town enema prepared to teach all forms of religion,
red whether they word dad them ready to train up chil-
dren as Homan catholic., as Jews, or in the variou forms
of ChrisLanity. He agreed with his hon. friend that if
they were going to support religious education out of the
fn Is of the state, they wc.ald embark in diSculties from
*Leh be saw no amide of escaping. (Hear, hear.) Ai a
tbotoonan, he thought there was one very important
mimeo in the noble lord's speech. The noble lord
lal est informed the home what had hisses of that mi-
see of the Privy Council, dated Jena 12, 1852, which
thasferred Irons the laymen of the church the management
el Mardi schools to the clergy and the bishop of the d
(Noir. bear.) He thought that the government of which
the noble lord was a member in the year 18103, greatly din.
baraistid itself and made • great step in advance, by ens-
_Vol laymen to menage chinch schools, in conjunction with
,01 clergy, and he considered it was a retri.grade step of
surd Derby's government to undertake to transfer back
the management to the clergy, and to give them inclusive
Ain:Whoa. He therefore wished to ask the noble lord,
whether that minute of couneil had been rescinded, which
onehled public money to be given to church schools, in
oats where the clergyman hat the power of dismissing
desehiolmaster upon other than religious grounds, incases
■ which the clay/train had the power of deciding what
lard. should be used upon other than religious grounds,
and in caw where school. might be built under the new
*em of trust deed, which seas allowed to be introduced by
*late government ? The question was one of vital ism-
*trot ; for oltrosith It might nut affect existing schools,
there was nevertheless • great principle involved, namely,
the education by laymen of the young. lie would never
Pct hat consent as a churchman to go back one iota, and to
trader to the clergymen any powers which had hitherto
Eels enjoyed by the Loy committee. Lord Derby had said
that the new minute should not be acted upon until pairs
are had consented to its principle, sad he (Mr. M. ()eb-
be: considered that this was • fitting opportunity for *ak-
ar whether the minute was to be rescinded, or whether
her Ma esty's governmeat were prepared to act upon it ?
d, hear.)
J RUSSELL said the committee of council had
coto:dered the minute, anti they did not propose to enforce
0. but it would be cancelled. They proposed by •
docute that there shouid he a power given to the clergy.
•in to appeal to the lord ~resident of the council and the
tothlp of the diocese, in eases where the schoolmaster was a
Pius. of immoral conduct or habits It was certainly
Iss.ibie that in some coos. a schoolmaster of immoral con-
Met or Labits might be supported by the partiality or in-
kiere of the committee, and in such a ca..e they pro.
Nod that by a minute the clergyman might apply to the
Ithx,ltnt of the council; and his lordship with the bishop
[ 4:we ot.dentood the noble I 'oil, who was very indistinctly
44)• might appoint the inspector of the schools and an-
,lt intomhent le investigate the complaint, and opals
.‘ re
put decree accordingly.
ltr W. J. PDX said he wished to say • f'w words onftai
Pert of the interesting speech of the noble lord which
'.ocie ore. reed the
la'mass of th, population. lie
ft, Teri :.it indeed to tin: that the noble lord Lad motto-

Wiled the principle of an educational rate ; he thought it is
trust important step in the progress of public instructi,n.
He never could comprehend the objection to the state inter-
fering in order to secure the rights of children, and to
secure its own rights; for the awe had a right to expect
that society should not have turned upon it, from time to
time, large bodies of uniastrueted, semi-eivilixed beings,
ripe far depravity and crime. (Hear, hear) On the other
hand, the child who was totally neglected by its parents
was deprived of that due training of its faculties
human beings might be said to have a natural right to enjoy.
Bat macho( the virtue of • rate for education would depend
upon its being generally levied, and distributed riccoriliog
to recognised and impartial principled. (Hear, hear.)
What was that difficulty? The term "secular
r education " had been roads • perfect bugbear its this
country. The notion had been run away with that there
was a set of persons who wished to exclude religion from the
training of the children of this country. (Hear, hear.)
Sack a notion did not argue se much wrongheadedness as
a total deprivation of the "oral sense. (Cheers.) lie be-
lieved there were no such persons amongst those who had
been most forward in recommending what was called the
secular system. These were as thoroughly convineed as
others that there war no such thing as education without
the religious element—(hear, hear)—but the question was
how that element was best to ha infused. That was
the question, and no other. (Hear.) They thought,
—and they were countenanced by his grace the Archbishop I
of Canterbury in thinking so—that the clergyman wai a':
better trainer in religion than the schnolm tater. (Hear,
hear.) And this difficulty was always surmounted. What
did the noble lord say to the plan which his own govern-
'bent rod other governments had supported in lrcland ?
(Hear, hear.) The difficulty was not surmounted there
only, bat iu oar own colony of Canada. (Hear,
hear.) The system in the United States showed the anise
triumph over this same supposed insuperable difficulty.
He could not but hope that, as the discussion upon it pro-
'Wed, the scheme would enlarge itself, sa as to be come
more comprehensive, more general, more worthy of the
name of minting; and certainly, in recognising the prin-
ciple of • rate, the noble lord had laid the foundation of
an edifice which might do honour to his own name, and
redound to the glory and welfare of the country. (Cheers.)
Mr. E. BALLsaid he should exceedingly rejoice if par ies
could oe brought to agree on a national system ; but lie
should prefer for children not to he educated at all, rather
than sulfide the Bible front the schoule.

Sir 11. IL !SOLIS referred to the sudden clearance of I
the house, which had taken place when the noble lord sat
down; but said he would take the epportunity of eaves'.
ing his agreement with the right boo. member fur the city
of Manchester on on. point—that it would be impossible to
bring any town conned, either in Manchester or elsewhere,
to agree to a rate in favour of a system of education which
should comprise all religious denominations. (Hear, hear.)
lu all that he had said on the universities, he (Sir H. Inglis)
entirely differed from the nohlo lord, and warned him that
he should oppo,e all his projected reforms. To the noble
lord's general scheme of education hr bad also grave objec-
tions which lie should state at the proper time; he merely
wished to guard against his silence being construed into ap-
proval.
Lord J. 'MANNF.ItS said the noble lord's outline of his
plan was Fii meagre that he was unable to form any d cisive
opinion on it He had, however, in answer to Mr. Gibson,
made a statement which was sufficient to show that
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gibson) had entirely
mistaki a the object of the late minute of the committee of
council. Its real object was to secure to members of the
church of England the same rights in the rnanagemi at of
their ach-iils as were possosiied by other r‘ 'igloos bodies..
esp• cially in reference to the appointment soil discharge of
schoolmasters. Ile could not see any possible infringement
of relikous liberty in such a proposal. As the noble lord
stated his intention of prop ming a new minute, and as he
had expert/mid great indignation at the late government
taking sorb a step without the sanction of paid:anent, he
wished to ask whether the proposed new minute would be
first laid before parliament; also whether the hill would
emend to Scotland; whether ragged snails would be
included in its provisions; and some other matters of
detail.

Mr. PILINS urged the importance of a subject respect-
ing which Lsrd J. Russell had been silent, namely, the
compuby.ry education of the lowest classes. The noble lord
had likewise omitted to notice the public schools; sod with
regard to the universities he had been morn tinsti than Ms
own corumisdoners.

Mr. W (GRAM thought the measure of the government
very well deserving the consideration and favour of the
house, the system being founded upon one already tried,
and which bed produced admirable fruits.
Mr. BLACKBTT expressed his regret that the noble
lord had made no allusion to the Calverley of Durham,
which hail contrived in • comparatively short space of time
to arrive at that perfection of mismanagement which distin-
guished its elder sisters of Oxford and Cambridge. ("Hear,
hear," and laughter.) He had no personal experience of
that university, but he understood that its defects, in re-
spect of the abandonment of the professorial system, the
substitution of the collegiate system, and the scanty attend.
ante of scholars, were as great as those which called down
the anidmadversions of the commi-sioners on Oxford As a
school fur minicf purposes, which should be one of its main
characteristics, in such • district as Perham, it was alerted
useless. (Hear, beer.) With regard to the reforms pointed
' out by the commissioners, they divided themselves into two
heads—those which the universities themselves could not
effect without the assistance of parliament, such as the re-
form of the statutes, and those which they bail the power
of effecting without the intervention of the legislature,
th.oueh, as the commisioners said, it must be doubtful if
' they-had the will to make them. With regard to the first
class of reforms, the noble lord fully recognised the import-
ance of parliamentary interference, but he did not say that
he intended to bring forward any measures this year. He
thought this was very much to be regretted, the more id as
it was generally understood from the allusion to the Commis-
sion in the Queen's Speech, that the late government would
at least have introduced this session an enabling act, which,
though insufficient, would have been better than nothing.
With regard to the second class of reforms, he entirely cou-
carted in the manner in which the noble lord had spoken of
them. His views in this respect formed a pleasing centres% to
the language used by the right hon. gentleman (the Chan-
caller of the Exchequer) who in 18.59 spoke of the disastrous
effects produced by the announcement of the commission,
and asked who ever heard of • commander-its-chief or a
prime minister being chosen by examination, as was pro-
posed to be done in reference to the appointment of fel-
lows. He agreed with the hon. and learned member for
Bath that the noble lord was mere timid than his own com-
missioners. He proposed to give the colleges more time in
order to ascertain how they would ant before he asked the
aid of parliament. He (Mr. Blackett) cautioned the
noble lord how he allowed any further delay, for he was
convinced the only use which would be made of it would
be for the purpose of thwarting reform. This demand of
time was not made for the first time. In 1934, when Lord
Radnor breathe the subject before the House of Lords,
the Dubs of Wellington said that the colleges themselves
were seweidering the subject of reform : but from that time
se the present se reform had taken place (Hear.)
Emesekinse therefore, would justify them in refusing
my mere time now. The report of the commissioners did nut
apposes ofdelay. Whoa the commissioners asked for infor-
mant teem the fellows, they often replied that they were
provessied by the oath which they took of observing the
embine—an oath which, in other respects, had been shame.
day neglected. (Cheers.) Now, there were at least from
Ile be 40 fellowships yeast every year, on admission to
which the, oath of perpetual observance of the Aetna' was
taken. Tidies wand be therefore every year a fresh crop of
fellows, whir would plead the oath as a bar to further re-
form. This would be one of the effects of further delay.
Bet every single step taken by the universities sizes the
appointment of the commiesion ought to be a warning to
them not to site more time. There were only three col-
leges and three halls in Oxford that consented to give the
requisite information to the Royal commission. All the
others neglected or evaded the demand for inquiry. The
Bishop of Exeter, as the visitor of one college, called upon
the authorities in • style of ridiculous bombast, to beware
how they trampled on the visitosial power which the law
of the land gave to the bishop. Again, the University of
Oxford paid not the slightest attention to the recommenda-
tions of the commissioners. The university had given
away several soma of mosey for purposes not strictly us.
direnical, and the commissioners recommended that the
fends should in future he applied for such purposes only.
That word to he a moderate and common sense ItCOlll.
mandrakes, yet whim an occasion that certainly strongly
appealed le the Imilme of all felonious occurred, namely,
the fart•enonament to the Duke of Welling-
ton, ft NW. for that purpose. (Hear, hear.)
The commissioner likewise recommended—and it was one
of their mot important recommendations—that the students
should eel be compelled to live in the colleges. This would
enable peer poem es obtain the highest kind of laetrile.
lion, which coniel est now be well obtained without being
launched into the midst of an extravagant society. This
was the only way of providing for that large and well-edu-
rated class of pupil teachers was, possessed of intellectual re-
anemones, were not possessed of pecuniary resources which
would enable theater move with in an expensive society. Bat
the greatest advantage of this change would be that it
I would break the neck of the present ecclesiastics' system of
Oxford. There was now a liberal conservative body of
Ozonises.. They were organised into an opposition known
r the Tutorial A.ssoeiation, and he was afraid the effect of
the delay now proposed by the noble lord would be to post.
posse the period when the differences between the two op-
posing bodies in the university would break out. Ile looked
upon it, therefore, as an unfortunate concession, and he
could not sit down with expressing hie conviction that the
main opposition to an efficient university reform would be
the exit teem of a coalition cabinet. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said that
be did not rise for the purpose of following •he hon. gin-
t)eman who had just spoken with respect to the various
statements which he had made. The hen. gentleman bail
made a particular attack on the University of Oxford and
the resident members of that university. He would only
my of that university that it had great and difficult duties
to discharge, and it deserved the highest honour for the
manner in which, on the whole, it discharged those duties.
(" Hear. hear," and a laugh.) lie rose for the purpose of
giving the noble lord opposite (Lord John Manners) the
information he asked for with respect ts the questions which
he had asked. With regard to the first question tie begged
to say that there would be no objection to lay on the table
of the house the minute which it was intended to substitute
for the minute of the Privy Council of the 12th July, 1952.
As to the minute of June 12,1852, he must ray that its noble
friend did not appear to him to have accurately described it.
The minute did not pay that all founders of schools should
be at alert y to constitute these trust+ in any manner that
they thought ft; its object wits, if it hail any !idioms'
object, to prevent the retention, through 10. al misunder-
standings or feuds, of irernoral or improper persons in the
only of ,6931fligslCri o'nd he believed that when h 3 noble

friend saw the minute which had recently been adopted by
the Privy Council, he would admit that that object was
attained. As to the liberty of founders to constitute trnsu
ba asy way they pleased, it was a li►erty which it would
be very improper in them to claim and very improper
for any government to give. His noble friend had asked
whether Scotland was included in the plan which had been
propounded. lie begged to say that in no respect did it
apply to Scotland, and that the intention of the govern.
sent with respect to Scotland, when their plan should be
suture, would be declared separately. His noble friend
hail also inquired whether it was intruded, in the bill for
the regulation of charity trusts, to provide that every
scheme of reform which might be framed undsr its rem-
, pions should be made the subject of • sperms act of parlia-
ment. Tlae general intention with regard to that bill was
to make it somewhat similar to the Enclosure Act nor in
force. It would be neceseary to come to parliament for its
specific sanction to a scheme of r:forin when the
legatees did not unite in assenting to it ; but
it would not be necessary to come to parliament in each
particular case, and in some instances it might be desirable
to combine a number of schemes in one set of pariernent.
His hon. friend the .ember for Bath (Mr Phinii) com-
plained that no mention had been made of the great school.
of the cowry. Ile believed that io the bid introduced last
year by his hon. and learned friend the member for Abing.
den, there was no such provision as the hon. gentleman ap-
peared to desire; lie also believed that the great schools
were included in the scope of the bill which was to be intro-
duced into the House of Lords fur the regulation of charity
trust., and he thought that it would be premature to enter
into the subject then. A great deal lied been said,
in reference to the universities, and his honourable
and keened friend had not spoken of them in
that conciliatory tone which he felt satisfied was the tone
best adapted to promote beneficial changes, m well as to
prevent dangerous and mischievous alterations. (War,
hear.) The statement of his noble frond the member fur
the City el London required no defence and no elucidation
from him. Whether it were in contrast, as the lion. and
learned gentleman stand, with whet lie (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had said there and elsewhere on the subject
of the universities, wss a question which he would leave
him to speculate upon to his own satisfaction. To the prin-
ciples laid down by his noble friend on that oceision, he
adhered, and he always had adhered. What he
maintained wss, that it was the duty of the
legislature to see that the great endowment& with which
the universities had been provided were made available
for the ends for which the universities existed ; and if
there were portions of those endowments which were lying
dormant, or were kept in abeyance, then, he said, it was
nut only desirable fur the public, but it was essential to the
welfare of the universities themselves, that the •pplica-
tiun of the en :OMMet),4 should be so directed that the ends
would be secured. (Hear, bear) It appeared to him,
however, that such speeches as that of the hon. gentleman
who had just sat down tended to stop the progr.vs of re.
form. (Hear, bear.) If the hon. centleinao were earnestly',
desired to sac beneficial changes, he could not have taken • I
snore unwise course with • view to their accomplish-
ment. The hon. gentlemen had not atopp. d short
at imputing general insincerity to the residents at the uni-
versities; he said they were all asleep until the commission
was appointed; yet he incidentally stated that a great sail
extensive change was adopted just before the appoiatuseut
of the commission.

Sh. BLACK ETT said he expressly distinguished between
the university and the colleges.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
did not herr that, but if the hon. goitleinau adhered to
that distinction he was satisfied. Still, the university and
the colleges being composed at present of the same persons,
it wus scarcely possible that a spirit of reform should pre-
vail in the universities, and that the same persons who
advocated reformation in the universities, should be
Gable to the severe censure which the hon. gentleman had
cast upon them. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman seemed
to be of opinion, not merely that it was desirable that
Changes should he made in the universities, but that they
should be made by an extraneous authority. His noble
friend, sic !ortling to the boa. gentleman. committed a fatal
error in giving them time. Why, the commirsion, which
was net deficient either in ability or in diligence, took two
years to frame its report; and slid the hon. gentleman
think that bodies of this kind, who had for centuries dis-
charged moat important duties, and who, whatever might
be the opinions which prevailed with regard to improve-
ments, enjoyed at that moment, he believed, the confidence
and respect of the country, as consisting of men who
performed most arduous and useful labours—did the
hon. gualemen, be asked, think it desirable to over-ride
the free and independent action of these bodies., when,
too, free and independent action was essential to the ends
for which they existed? (Hear, hear.) lie did not say
that circumstances might not arise which would justify

such a course, but it would, in his opinion, be
a great misiortune if the required improvements
were not effected from their own free choice.
Nothing could be more undesirable than to hold out threats
as the hon gentleman had done. It was imp issible to eon.
thatl'm! the Universities were in such a sense absolute
masters of their own atf.iri—that parliament bad no right
to interfere with them. It woe the duty of parliament to
rpose fur the purpose of regulating end improving any
such bodies for an adequate public cause; but to any that
it should interfere because much remained to be done, was
as unreasonable as it would be to reproach the House of
Commons for not having done everything that was re-
quired. There were ancient public foundations, with
great difficulties, as the hon. gentleman knew, standing in
the way cf reform. Ile protested against the hon. gentle•
men's doctrine, that such bodies should be at once swept
away. (Hear, hear.) These were questions which wmsY
not admit of that kind of treatment; if they wished is
accomplish their object, they must be contented to
proceed in order, and must give to those who
had important duties to discharge an opportunity
of making beneflciel changes, unless, indeed, they had res.
son to believe that such changes would not be produced by
their free action. The hon. gentleman complained that tho
universities did not at once act on the recommendatioas of
the commission. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
protested against that doctrine as one adverse to liberty.
(Hear, hear.) It was the business of corporate bodies re
submit themselves to reason according to their own view el
reason. It was not their duty to adopt the views of a amp
ntineime of inquiry, unless they considered them rigid. ,
Ulm. hear.) He hyped that the opinious of his noble
Mad would be taken from the speech of his noble friend
himself, and not from the constructions which had been
get span it. (Hear, hear.) Reference. had been made
le what Ms noble friend said with regard to the introduc-
tion Weft universities of students not connected with
the ; but it appeared to be forgotten that his noble
said distinctly that the mode in which they were
to be introduced was to be such as would not weaken or
relax the discipline. This was a most important reserve,
Lion—(hear, hear)—and he apprehended that if the views et
the hon. gentleman were acted upon there would be a re-
laxation of discipline. He had been led farther than be
intended by the asperity of the hon. gentleman'. censures
upon a body of men who, he repeated, were engaged in
performing most important duties. He trusted that the
house, woad adhere to the views laid down by his noble
friend; lihnt they would steadfastly pursue the great end
in view. mad that they would give the universities them-
mho tei mei fair time to propose the measures best
NNebo attainment of that end, of course reserving
be yes the right of requiring these corporate bodies
• doillsoir duty; and if they did it not willingly, compel-
ling these to perform it by act of parliament. (Hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS captained.
• Mr. BLACKETT disclaimed the attention of casting any
eelletehes un the tutors of Oxford as a body.

Mr. APSLEY PELLATT regretted that no allusion
had been made to a very interesting and important
class of her Majesty's subjects—namely, Sunday
school teachers, whose avocations bad been pur-
sued for the lest 70 years with great advantage
to the country. There wet. at that time 2,000,000 Sunday
sob la sad 200,000 teachers, whose instructions were all
voluntary. In Manchester alone them were 90,000 Sunday
scholars and 9,000 teacher.. So far as the noble lord's plan
provided for the handing over of public money to municipal
corporations for educational purposes it had his approba-
tion ; and he believed it would tend to check that spirit of
centralisation which was so much objected to by many of
the trading communities. A suggestion bad been made by
a Derbyshire manufacturer which was, he thought, worthy
of the attention of the government, namely, that a certifi•
rate of educational advancement should be given to
children and presented to employers when application was
made for employment.
Leave wee then given to bring in the bill.
CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL.
Mr. F. I'EEL moved the order of the day for the consi- '
deration of this bill as amended, and observed that the only
material amendment was one which allowed a certain period
(as we* understood) for reference to the home government
'ado,* any alteration was carried into effect; a similar pro-
vision being inserted in every Canadian act.
Mr. lIUME thought it of the utmost importance that all
questions for legislation should be determinable at once by
the government of Canada. Considerable inconvenience
had arisen from delay with regard to Trinidad.
The amendments having been agreed to, on the question
that Monday nest be fixed for the third reading,
Mr. 111:DIE complained of the retention of the clause
with regard to the payment of 9,0001. a year, and said he
believed it would leave discontent in Canada.
Monday next was then fixed for the third reading.
PILOTAGE BILL.
- • - - - -

On the order of the day for the second reading of this I
bill,
Mr. HL ME wished to knew whether it was intended to
refer the bill to a committee, as there were applications to
be beard from tour or five of the outports. He was himself I
in favour of the change.
Mr. CARDWELL said all he wished for was facility in
passing a bill which he believed would prove beneficial to
the snipping interest.
Mr TURNER said, though it was not his intention to
oppose the second reading, ha mast declare that the ship-
owners and merchants of Idverpuol viewed with great
anxiety the provision with 'regard to the licensing of masters
and mates. The pilot hoard of Liverpool was of very
ancient date; and they feared that the effect of the bill
would be to diminish the efficiency of the pilot service, by
diminishing the rune. for its support.
Mr. DEEDES hoped the bill would be referred to a
"elect committee.

Mr. } ORSTr.,It could not undcrst .nd what shipowners
were to goo'. by this alttration, thouah it was of course
thsißiled fr r their relief. No one hut the pilots of the
Citique Yorta would be really benefited ; while shipowners
would b e handed over more convict.. ly than ever to the tender
mereir:s of the Trinity Board.
Y.r, W. M. smnu said having that day attended the
Wart! of Trade on the subject with a deputation, ho was