The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAM

HOUSE. OF COMMONS, FEB. 17.
The Bramuta took the chair at twelve o'clock.
PRIVATE Besisess.
SECOND READLNGS.—Exeter mad Exmouth Railway; Leeds and
Think Railway (Leeds, Durham, and Newendie Extenakm, fre.);
I Leads and Think Railway (Deviation of Male Line in Crimple Via-
ley. &c.) ; Leeds and Thirsk Railway (Knareaborough and Hirougia.
bridge linuieb); Leeds and Think Railway (Eagleacliff and Stilling-
ton Extenaiwii ; Leeds and Thin* Railway (Harrogate and Pawky
Branch, fre,); Leed. sod Think Railway (Brandt from Melmerby to
Narthallertoe, Ore.); Midland Great Wedeln Railway of Ireland (Ex-
tension from Athlone to Galway) Bills.
PUBLIC BUSINESS._

PrIITTONA.—By Mr. Anenroirrit from Bolton and from Hud-
dersfield ; Lord Geo. Barnacle, from Warrington; Mr. FrARAND,
from Sliagsby, and from a working man in ester, Mr. Et moss,
S 8 petitions loom various places; Mr. T. DVICCONIay. from Bradford,
from United Trades' Aftnelltion —all hr favour of Tat Hours Bill.
Lord Gen. Ilmsriscr, from Bradford, for alteration of Anatomy AM.
Sir W. SOWEIWILLI6, from guardians of Drogheda, for immediate toi-
-1 aviation of groin. Mr. Eaoriesima foim Halifax, for reduction of
duty no le+. DCNCAN from the Chamber or Commerce of Dun-
dee against Legis'Atire interferrmie with factory labour.
BI TURN (MBE RED.—On the motion of Mr. B. 11. Casiocu, of
the expenditure of union workhouses in England and alea, from
1b34 to 1846 inclusive, and the amount paid in web year for out-door
....

IRISH WORKHOUSES.
Lord DUNCAN entreated the attention of the house to a
persklial matter connected with himself. It had been stated
that he had acted with discourtesy. He trusted that he
knew his dirty to that house too well to act with discour-
tesy towards any individual, either there or elsewhere. It
bad been alleged that he had made charges against an indi-
vidual. He would recall to the recollection of the house,
that when his hon. friend the member for Marylehone se-
ferred to statements which had been made with regard to
certain workhouses in Ireland, he (Lnril Duncan) said he
trusted that those statement, would be speedily denied. He
disclaimed having made any charges. \Vhat he before said,
and new repeated, was, that his constituent, would not be
willing to pay poor-rates ualesa also levied in Ireland—(hear,
hear)—and no observations made either in that house or
elsewhere would prevent him from thus discharging what be
felt to be his duty to those whom he represented.

SUPPLY.
On the motion of Mr. PAIULER, the house went into
Cons • lune of supply, and a vote was taken on outstanding
Exchequer Bills to the amount of 18.310,7001.

FACTORIES BILL-ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Oa the order of the day for sus mi• ff era adjoarraai des
bate on the second reading,
Sir A. L. HAY lose to address the house. He said he
could not agree with the noble lord the member for the City
of Landon [het the question before the house was now not
one of principle, but only of degree. The interference which
took place in 1333 was not a concession of the principle in-
volved. The factory commission found that the average number
of Noun in the cotton factories of Great Britain was 12, though
in come eases labour extended over 18 or 17 ; they then gave
their opinion in favour of 12 ho•.rs being eauctioued by par-
liament ; and it appeared to hint that the adoption of that
suggestion was merely an adjustment necessary to generalise
the system. He would be told, perhaps, that the opinion of
one eminent factory inspector, Mr. Leonard Homer, wan in
favour of further alteration. For twelve years after Mr.
Homer was made an inspector he was opposed to reducing
the number of hours below 12, and be (Sir A. L. Hay) bad
twelve years' experience at least to set against two. The
experiment was one fraught with danger to the manu-
facturing interest, and indirectly to the agricultural.
The feeli: gin Scotland was very strong upon this subject.
The mill owners there were quite indignant nt this legisla-
tive temperieg with their rights, and one of therefrom whom
he had heard that tn.-ening, declared that they had unani.
mously resolved, if the bill were carried, to work their mills
only eight hours a day, and pay wages at only one-third of
the present scale. (conical cries of " Hear, bear.") As to
foreien competition, the Americans could undersell us even
now in the markets of China and India. And what a time
had they rho-en for their experiment! Never was there a
period when such experiments should be lees tried. On the
part of the masters and workmen both he begged them, there-
fore, to resist this hill.
Mr. BERNAL had always felt strongly on this subject,
and had always consistently voted in favour of the principle.
At the same time he had alwaysdieesraled from his mind the
vulcar attacks which were constantly being made upon the
master manufacturer* in connexion with this subject. The
master manufacturer, ought to be supported. Their industry
was indefatigable: their enemy was daring: their projects
were insenificeet. But he did ask the master manufar•u-
con to divest themselves of prejudice upon this subject, and
to regard as a certainty, that in a few year*, more
or less, the prirciple of • ten hours bill must certainly
be cerried. What slid this bill propose ? It proposed
to limit the labour of young persons between the age
of thirteen and eighteen, and of all females, to ten hours
a day for five data in the week, and right hours on Satur-
day; or, in other words, to mike the week's labour 58
hours, instead of 89 hours, at at present. Now, in dinueing
the adyantagss that would result from the proposed change,
he would deal only with plain areuments and matters of
feet, and discard all poetry•. He admitted at once that the
arrangement would 010 limit the labour of adults in fac-
tories, He thought that was a feet which ought not
to be concealed or evaded. (Hear, hear.) It was a very
important fact; because it woo argued that if the hour'
of adult Labour were diminished, the wages of their
labour must be diminished in proportion. Now, on thin
point, the house should bear in mind that the op- ratives
had, over and over again, express: d themselves willing to
take the measure and abide t •e issue. He recollected two
years ago hieing a two houn' conversation with delegates
from the manufactur'ng district', and when this considera-
tion was seegeated to them, their answer was, " We are
content to encounter the risk. and abide the ehence of reduc-
tion." (Hear, bear.) But he did not concede the point
that there would he a necessary r• diction of wages to the
extent assumed by the opponents of she biil. Between 1813
and 1833 seven distinct statutes had been passed on the sub-
ject of factories, and for the reduction of the hours of labour.
Had the operetion of those acts at all diminished the rate of
wages? (Hear, hear.) What was the evidence upon thin
point? In 1833, Mr. Holland Hoole, a large cotton-
spinner at Manchester, himself an opponent of this
measure, gave evidence on this subject, which was
embodied in one of their blue books up stairs.
What did he tell there ? llc stated what were the wag.' of
labour in cotton manufactories in Manchester in eight dif-
ferent years, and the result showed that whilst in 1813, be-
fore they commenced ',arming laws of this sort, the average
earnings of young persons in Manchester were Bs. 41d. •
week ; in 1833. when seven acts upon the subject had been
passed, their average wages were Bs. 10d. a week. Now,
not only was this an advance in money wages, but when
they came to consider the prices of the principal articles of
consumption, they would find that it was a great advance in
relation to that standard by which alone wages could be
measured. In 1813, for example, the price of oatmeal was
5.5 e, in 1833, 2.55. ; butcher's meat, in 1813, sd. ; is 1833,
31d. ; teem in 1813, Si., in 1833, eel ; candles, in 1813,
1 led., in 1833, 51d.; coal', in 1813, Bld., in 1813, 53.1.
Salt, they were aware, was considerably reduced, and there
had been a reduction generally in calicoes, artiales of dress,
cheese, and potatoes, amounting neerly to ZO per cent., so
that while the young women in 1833 got greater average
eves than they did in 1813, they could supply them.
selves with articles of food and clothine at 50 per cent.
less. Now, if the house took the average weekly earnings
in 1844 and 1845, they would find that the same facts w .re
exhibited. In a speech of the hon. member for Durham,
delivered last session, he entered at some length into tee
question of wages as existing in his own and other factories
in Lancashire and Yorkekire. The hon. member stated the
number of his workets at 518, and their average earnings
per week at 90. Id. ; he said that Mr. Ackroed employed
74.5 workers, at an average weekly wage of Is. 3d. ; while
the worker, in Mears. Eccles' and esker manufactories,
averaged 101. 7d. It was clear, then, that wages in 1844
and 1845 had not been reduced, although since the year
1833 they had passed two other enactments limiting the
hours of labour in factories. (Hear, hear.) lie thought,
therefore, that he bed a right to assume that a doubt
might he cast on the assertion that a reduction of the dura-
tion of labour would be followed by a reduction of wages.
But he now came to a part of the subject which was
of equal, if not still greater, importance. At • period
when the claims of the poor were peculiarly forced
on their attention—when they were called to legislate with
a view to the increased health of towns and large cornmeal-
ties, surely they could not discard from their consideration
that these youthful artisan, were now worked 12 or 14 hours
in • heated and unwholesome atmosphere; and that women
(workenaho in factories) were torn from their domestic re-
lations, and interrupted in the midst of Ness maternal duties
which nature had pointed out as imperative. He wished to
draw the attention of the house to the facts elicited on these
points by Mr. Fletcher, • most intelligent surgeon of Bury.
Mr. Fletcher, writiug to the hon. member for Oldham,
stated that he was startled at the statistical detail* set forth
in various authotitire ; but after he bad himself tented their
accuracy, he was obliged to acknowledge that in no single
instance were they overcharged. He had not taken one
town or district, but had compared one with the other
throughout the textile manufacturing counties. Ile had, for
instance, taken one district in the town of Bury, and com-
pared it with another district in which a different species of
manufacture prevailed. First, in the tows district of Bury,
which be hail examined, he found that the number of years
which each worker was employed in the factories did not
exceed, on an ace age, eight, while in some other kinds of
factories the period exceeded fourteen. He found that the
deaths of infants in the towns averaged sixty-one per cent ,
and in other districts thirty-two per rent. The hon. mem-
ber (Mr. Milner Gibson) seemed to doubt this, but the facts
were accredited, and could be substantiated to the satiefac
lion of rho house. In the district of Bury North, Mr.
Fletcher found the mortality among infants as •54 per cent.
compared to 33 per cent. in other districts. Now, what
was the inference from this? Why, clearly, that the women
could not give the proper and efficient stteneanct to their
infants which t ey were called on by nature to afford, and
that their energies were too severely taxed at a time when it
was requisite that they should devote themselves to the nur-
ture of their young. (Hear, hear.) Much had been said
both in that holes and elsewhere on what had been done by
the master manufacturers by the construction of parks,
and schools, and atheneum* for the working-classes.
He should like to know, however, when were
the working-classes to enjoy them ? (Hear, hear.)
Of what use were mechanics' institutions, and parka, and
atheneum., if the people for whom the atheneum' were
built, and the parks planted, had neither time, sinews, nor
spirits to make use of them ? How was • man working ten
hours a day to fled time for recreation? They would say he
might use these places on a Sunday ! Why, think what a
Sunday was to • man who had been atandiag ten hours a
day at a loom for the six previous days of the week ? It
was his day literally of rest—(hear, hear)—it was his day for
the performance of many little domestic duties he had pre-
vieusly been obliged to neglect, but it was a mockery to call
it his day for enjoying their parks and atheneum,. (Hear,
hear.) This was an hypocrisy which deserved to be ex-
posed. (Renewed cries of '• Hear, bear.") But he now
came to another cundderation. It was truly said, that

manufactures at the present moment were depressed. Now,
what was the cause of it? Why, it could. be traced to the
working of that megnilteent and demon mos cr. the Acorn
engine. By the aid of its powers the mama...hirers of this
country had mere:oo.ml sorry market iu the wc.rld. The
shores of South America were white vri..h their calicoes;
the yellow plains of China were coloured with their prints.
(A laugh.) What was the cure for all this over-production ?
short time. And, as there must necessarily be diminished
production in future, what harm was there in passing this
bill? (Hear. herr.)
Alr. DENNISTOIJN was understood toremark that over-
production was an increase of good ; it was not an evil.
Mr. BERNAL.—Then if it was a good let theta hear no
more grumbling from the manufacturing districts. (Hear,
hear.) But he denied that it was a goad. Could they con-
sider an increateal number of bankruptcies a 1.1 mptotn of
good ? Let them see how frightfully the pruduc in hail in-
creased ? One hicton inspector reported that iii Aim district
alone, between Nov. 161.5 and Nov. 1846, fey new mills were
added to the number previously existing, workine 3,315 ad-
ditional horse power, and employing 13.300 additionalwork-
people. (Hear, hear.) But he had hosed anmething said by
the hon. and gallant member who had just spoken as to the
Americans undenelliug us. Why, they have ken doing this
for years. Yet, if they contrasted wages in America with
wages in England they would find our rates loner than the
Americans, whilst they w: uld also find that the American
female spinners were much snore liberally triatml. I Hear,
hear.) It was a fact, of which, perhaps, some members
might not be aware, that in the aggregate there work women
employed in American factories had much more time
at their disposal than in this country. Generally, they were the
daughters of respectable farmers, and during 2 or 3 months
of the year they had a vacation from work, during which
they retired to their catintry.homes, to renew their domestic
ties and sympathies. (Hear, hear.) t them show him a
penile case to this in Yorkshire or in Lancaahire. 'I here
the work was uticeasiog—never ending. (Cheers.) Well,
then, taking all these facts into their consideration, he put it
to the master manutacturers, was it worth while to contend
now against a principle which was so sure as this was of ulti-
mate adoption? Let them ask themselves, did not the ope-
ratives of Lancashire end Yorkshire des. eve something at
their hands f Their agitation for this hill hail been a moral
agitatian : they had nevi r threatened even a turn-out. And
yet these men, be it remembered, had gond argument on
their ride. If they looked around them they saw no her
elaisses of operatives cumpell,l to work as they were. Not
• smith, not a mason, not a carpenter, an engineer, Waif a
joiner in Landow 'naked es long as they did ;—nay, the very
mechanics in the mills at which th, y lab oirel never
worked ten hours a day upon the average. These
mi-n, then, had a right to say let us exerciie a fete will as
well so our fellows, or if you work us extra hours pay us, as
you pay our feltow workm n, not upon a wale of arithmeti-
cal proportion, but rather en a scale of geometrical pro-
gression. (Loud cheere.) Let them remember too, that
these people were deprived of many of the advantaers open
to their I. Bows. Th re was a chymistry in nature, nod
though the agricultural peasant might labour as 11114( and
might live in greater squalor and earelessusin than the
factory workmen, yet lie hail the adeantare of free air
and of the glorious sunshine. He attained a ripe old age, nn-
depressed in physical or mental energy. How different his
condition from that of the occupant of the crowded, ill venti-
lated, badly lighted facture t. A spirit ofjustive and .airr.em
dictated to the marten that to these men they owed some
compensation for the blessings of which they were so much
deprived; and with every respct, he warned them to yield
in time, lest they might be made to ield hereafter under
greater disadvantage, and left themselves open to the suspi-
cion of avaricious grasping after that which they could not
I maintain, and which the dictates of msrality and Christian-
ity forbad them to hold. (Loud cheering.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD ,aid that he attends d a meeting
of the working class. s, held in the Town-hall of Rochdale,
convened for the purpose of expressing an opinion upon
the subject of this bill, lie asked them what wire their
wishes with respect to it, whether they desired him to sup-
port the measure in that house, and whether they were
willing to stand the chance of any r.duction of wages w hick
might arise from the paring of the measure. One part
of the hall was appropriated to females, and lie asked
the ladies their wishes (a laugh) and received a
most enthusiastic response in favour of the measure. Al-
though the operatives of Rochdale did not coovti'ute the
whole body of the electors of Roehd sle, still he felt it is
duty to pay a due consideration to the wishes of that large
body, and he considered that he max &nine in conformity
with their opinions by giving his vote ni favour of this
bill.

Mr. DENNISTOUN confessed that his hem friend (Mr.
Dental) had advanced one argument wit:eh, at the first
blush, would seem to carry, If not convietinn, at the least
great weight, and wire)+, if it were not tort, Arendt place the
opponents to the hill in an awkward position. He alluded
to the point made, that this would not be the first time that
the sate has inter**. red in the hours of labour, and that such
interference had hitherto been unattendi d with any diminu-
tion in wages. Now he (Mr. Dennistoun) dela. d the assump-
tion that there had been any real reduction in the hours of
labour at all. The eduction mad. from fourteen to twelve
hours was only a nominal reduction, and was toot general
throughout the country, for twelve hours Fad been always
the average : thin I clog the fact, the whole arguments of his
hen. friend fell to the ground. (Hear.) The come quet,ce of
thin bill would he to tor a I.mit on the power of means, the
most absurd idea that could o nter into the he ad of man,
What a time, too, had they selected few pr Toning it ! We
were expos d at uremia to a great compenti at in our textile
manulactures. The Americans had an advantage over an
of 10 per cent. in freight and insurance alone, and of 10 per
cent. added to that upon the cost of the raw material. Now,
thin advantage, if applied to the whole cotton trade of Eng-
land, would amount to a million and a half per nom= upon
our annual manufacture. (Hear, hear.) The effect of thin
measure would be to limit the production of this country
by one-seventh. Now, in 1843, we spun 401,000,0001 b. of
cotton yarn, of wiieh we exported 312,(M0,000, leaving
58,000,000 for our home consumption. The result of this
measure would, the refore, be to limit the production
of as much as the whole home consumption of
this country. (Cheers.) But now, en to the argu-
ment about wages. He would take the case of one
mill et Glasgow. Its tett' consumption of yant was
312,0001 b, per annum. Deduct one-seventh, and the y would
have the production of this mill decreased by 41,:t701h. per
annum, or in money s due, by 2,228/. Now, from th:s
2,2281. they must take 8401. for the cost of the raw mato ial.
The remainder, or 1,388/., represented the amount of which
this bill would cause the loss. Now, upon whom was this
loss to fall ? If it fell on the masters and operatives equally,
each would lose 6741 , nod taking this as a fair estimate of
the lons throughout the kingdom, he found Oat the ennrmous
total of 877,5001. per annum would be paid less in wages
if thin bill were passed into a law. Were they prepared then
to take this step. If they were prepared to take it a ith respect
to manufactures, were they prepared to take it will respect to
other trades and articles? The kW of the potato crop in
Ireland was now baffling all our statesmanship alai all our
principles of political economy. Raiment was next in im-
portance to food. Food and clothing constituted in fact the
wealth of the weed. Would they limit the production of
food? It not, why limit the production of clothing? To
talk, in fart, of over-proluction in either, was a fallacy
which could not be too op eddy exploded. There could be
no such thing. (Hear, hear.) He now concluded by warn-
ing them that, if they passed this bill, the day was not far
distant when they would have to retrace their stem. It was
a measure which would never settle the question, whilst it
would most amen illy unsettle every interest in this cone try.
Mr. FERRAND, take adverting to the large number of
petitions presented in favour of the bill, and the few agninst
it, laid it was now 17 years since he find 11001111 C the firm
advocate of a ten hours factory bill ; and at the large
number of meetings which he had attended on the subject,
he bad never yet witnessed one manufacturer who dared to
raise his voice at any of tho.e meetings against them who
had publicly Rumbled to advocate a ten hours bill. He
had never heard one manufacturer who dared to meet his
vrorkpeople and fairly argue the qucstion which was at
issue. If there wan r.n instance of the kind lee should be
glad to hear it. He saw the boa. gentleman the member
for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) in his place. He believed it was
not many weeks since the hon. member visited his consti-
tuents, and was obliged to admit that the people of this
country were unanimous in favour of this bill.
- • • •

Mr. WARD denied that he had ever made such an
amnion.

------•
Mr. FERRAND said the hon. gentleman hsd admitted
on the occasion referred to that the factory operatives were
unanimously in favour of a ten hours bill. The working
populace of Sheffield cutirely differed with the hon. member
in his view of the question. The right hon. baronet the
member for Tamworth had informed the house that be felt
it his duty to vote against the bill, in consequence of his
anxiety for the interests of the factory lsbourers. By the
permission of the house he would read some details of the
present state and suttee ings of those operatives. The extract
to which he was about to refer was from the writings of a
Lancashire cotton4pinner. Out of the mouths of those

manufacturers who opposed this bill he would judge them
in that house. lithe statement was true, and there way no
doubt of it, he would ask if there was say hon. member who
had the audacity to stand up and say that he was pre-
paredto perpetuate in a Christian and civilised
a state of suffering and degradation such as
that which he was about to read to the house. This
great Lancashire cotton-spinner stated that, as individual
manufacturers extensively engaged in trade, they should not
be su.pected of wilful exagiteration of the evil. of this system
when they made the follawin a statement. (The hen. mem-
ber then read several extracts, which stated that children of
10 and 12 years of age, after being employed for a short
time in factory labour, lost the elastic step of youth, the
blooming cheek, and the vivacity of intellect, under the
severe employment and the prolonged confinement, often re-
sulting in permanent debility or premature death.) The
gentleman who thus spoke of the factory system was no
other than Mr. Greig, one of the largest cotton spinners in
Lancathire, who, at the time he made al. se statement., was
in favour of the relaxatton of the hours of labour ; but now
his mind had changed, having been poisoned by the prin-
ciples of political economy, and he was associated with a
small and decreasing band of cotton-spinners in Lan-
cashire, who deaied the factory operatives that
.pro-
tection to . fully This
gentleman
of work,

seven and
atmosphere
use of artificial

highest wages
particularly or
in besotting t
quantity or r
was painful .
this practice.
they resorted
large extent
form of pills,
anodyne, which
ose when wages
stimulant. The

five in the

which they were ea lußy entitled. 'this
went on to state that from long hours
and from its severe nature—rwelersd. more
exhausting by As often beingpeeforresilin iftioss
e—the workers found it nrezeiry to resat td
ficial stimulants ; that manpokhent rewiring the •
gee spent the greater portio IV their leiiiire.morir
y on Saturday evenings smoldering the Sund_ays.
Lig them/nisei with ale, ant'iirer, still gin. Tier
gin drunk in this way win tones; X
Ito see children, even giglg, sing inltlnted Into
ce. Art:ent spirits were, tray stimulants
rted to, as many of *bilged to 'As
ent in opium, which -y took it( tri
pills, sad in other forma, h \dist celled
which was cheaper than gin. It 'much in
wages were low, but now it would be an habitual
The renorsl hones of work were from half-pest
morning until half-past seven or eight at night,