The Express.
London, England, 1847-07-21 00:00:00

TONFIREIWE WITH THE COMMONS.

Sir eTiiiwt ad caw; limsmbmifrOni—tieUOmmons
appeared at the her. and nereseted a °Deference with their
lordships, oa the subject of their lordships' amendments to
the Peor-law Amendment Bill.
The Marquis of Lansdowne, Lord Strafford, the Earl of
St. Germans, the Bishop of St. Asaph, Viscount Lorton, and
cther peers were appointed to manage the conference on the
pert of their lordships, and proceeded to the royal gallery for
that purpose. On their return the result was stated to their
lordships.
BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.

Lord 13R151JeliLcliaaii he rose i.;;ll;a;neion to the
course that had been pursued in conducting the business of
the session now so near its close. He maintained that his
own conduct proved him not to hams been actuated by any
desire t• oppose the government, but to have opposed certain
measures solely from the belief that they would be injurious
to the country; and he, therefore, claimed credence for the
statement, that he was actuated by no hetious design or feel.
ing whatever, but solely by the desire to emote the highest
interests of the cluntry. He brewsla forward this motion
with no vague desks of cooling Moan Oa She government—
much of which he easphised beimeimshigat, almost necessary,
to the way in which the bushier el the country was can-
ducted. Liu sole object was to gather wisdom from the past,
and to prevent, if possible, the calamity of another such sea
sion ever again occurring. He would first allude to the ay.-
twat bills which had pared—he was going to say unhappily
but a very limited compartment of the picture he had to
present ; but be would say happily—for worse measures than
those which bad become the law of the land, especially three
measures relating to Ireland, had never passed in any previ-
ous session. He had a right to call these measures calami-
tous, not only from past experience, but from the results
which had arisen sines those measures bad passed.—[Hero
the noble and learned lord was interrupted by another
conference with the Commons, which had been requested
on the subject of the Passengers Act Amendment Bill.]—
The following peers were nominated as managers of the
conference :—Earl Grey, the Earl of St. Germans, Viscount
Lorton, the Bishop of St. Asaph, Lord Camp, lord Straf-
ford, and Lord Sudeley. On their return,
Earl GREY communicated that the conference had deli-
vered in the Commons' reasons for disagreeing with the
Lords' amendments in the bill. _ _

Lord BROUGHAM then resumed. The noble and
learned lord said that when interrupted he was about to
state shortly what were the substantial measures which had
passed, and which really formed the whole produce of the
session. In the first place, there was the English
Poor-law Bill, upon which he had already given his
opiaion, and, therefore, would not now trouble their
lordships with • single word beyond the expression of
his hope that the measure might work well. In this re-
spect, much depended upon the appointment that was made
to the office of chief commissioner. He trusted that the
individual who would be appointed to that responsible office
would be possessed of two qualities—first, firmness to carry
into effect the great principles of the law, and of being
utterly incapable of being deterred by clamour raised, either
by the press or in parliament ; aid next, that he would have
the capacity to explain and defend the measures and orders
originating in the department of which he was to be the head.
The next measure of substance which had been passed had
relation to the sister kingdom. By that measure this
country had taken upon itself the duty of lead-
ing the people of Ireland for a time, which was
undefined. It was said that the distress in Ireland
wss local, but seeing the amount of relief which was
now afforded in six counties of Ireland, it seemed that some-
what more than one third—something between one third

and one half of the whole population'of Ireland were in a
destitute condition; and that, at the present moment,
2,900,000 and odd persons were receiving the means of suste-
nance doled out to them from the coffers of the Treasury, by
paid officers appointed for that purpose. When was this
system of relief to cease? He (Lord Brougham) looked
with deep alarm to its cessation. That was the most
perilous part of the question. It was said that in a month
or two the system was to cease, and that the people of
Ireland were to be thrown upon their own resources.
If so, when be preyed God to help these poor
people, he must add to his prayer, that peace and tran-
quillity would be maintained. The evil had been com-
menced by training the Irish population to become beg-
gars, and much was to be feared if the eleemosynary assist-
ance which had in their destitution been afforded them was
suddenly withdrawn. Of the 10,000,00 W. lent to Ireland,
but never to be repaid, according to the odious and des-
picable doctrine of repudiation imported across the Atlantic
into another place, not mere than from 300,0001. to
400,0001. was now available, and yet with all the probabili-
ties of distress and destitutioa continuing to exist in Ireland,
a vote of credit had not been asked for. He contended that
having begun this system of relief, the government ought, se
was the case during the war, to have asked for a vote of
credit to be applied to the contingency which might
arise. In fact the government had provided for the
months of April, May, June, July, and August, but
" wormer" months were to come, and for the contingencies
to which they might give rise, be (Lord Brougham) con-
tended that, before the session closed, the government ought
to take a vote of credit. The next measure of substance
which had been paled was the Factories Bill, a measure, in
his opposition to which he (Lord Brougham) had received
the support of his able and learned friend on the woolsack
(the Lord Chancellor), of his noble friend the Pint Lord of
the Admiralty (the Earl of Auckland), and of his noble
friend the now Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland (the Earl of
Clarendon). Within the last three days, events had hap-
pened which showed a result that did not require •
prophet or a seer to foretell, namely, that if the hours
of labour were reduced, the reduction of the wages
of labour must follow. The hours had been reduced
from 11 to 10 hour; and waft had been consequently re-
duced from 12d. to 11d. These were the great measures
which the legislators had passed in the course of the session
about to expire, and without wishing tosay anything disrespect
ful to tbeirlordshipe, he must wish them joy of the three very
worst measures that ever received the sanction of parliament.
HA had now disposed of measures which had • substantial
existence, and he now came to deal with the puny infants
which had been abandoned almost at their birth. The
first of these was the contemplated provision by the
state for the Roman catholic clergy. The abandonment,
of that measure he deeply lamented. He desired, unpopular as
the sentiment might be, not only thatsuch a provision might
be made for the Roman Catholic clergy, but also, that there
should be established amicable relationsbetween this country
and the See of Rome. Another measure, which had not
pained the threshold of the legislature, wee the Polling at 11
Elections (Ireland) Bill. That measure only saw the light
on the 24th of June, and its premature fate could not be
doubted. The next measure was the Parliamentary Electors
Bill, containing provisions which were highly equitable and
most appropriate to be passed now that the country was on
the eve of &general election. This measure, important es it
was, had been abandoned by its unnatural parents. Then,
again, the Ineumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill had shared
the same fate; and, lastly, there was the Railways Bill.
The reason why parliament interfered with railway oonoerna
and not with others, was, that the country was stored with a
network of those undertakings; in the next place, that the
old mode of travelling had heat done away with, besides
which, the t risk of awidasts, so fatal in their extent,
suede a police superintadaes absolutely asseesearp ; and
lastly, because the legislature a wenopely is railway
companies which were Wiliam apital, and
taking away'people's peop rtyia • asepnbery manner,
which the legislature ahem eould lThei a railway
undertaking had the power of genie a Mad& Hoe,
that could only be done by mospolling poem to
allow them to go anomie theirland, awl this
gave proilantent an adsobtewl power to ialsolbse with
thew. Aceordingly a bin ems brought in, midi bed been
put of till next sashes--thot morrow which might never
ONO% bosoms the next andea woad be the first of a railway
; and if there vat me ehanee of carrying such •
new,:rbat would then be then ? There would be no
hops that it would paw soma ludo& ; and he lamented that it
was put of dll the. Ho new same to another subject,
which had been veseeemeelledla tba yes* hem **throne,
in which postnasal was aosameatial to wispt mammas Ike
improving the memo of froardise @Oast postnestiel dis-
ease. and generally to esomider the subject of the Health
of Towns. (Hear, beer.) A bill was brought in en
the subject, and very early. Now, of all tie towns in
England, the one which most required this, and called meet
imperatively on parliament to accede to the recoramendatim
in the speech from the throne, and which felt most the effects
of close pecking, filth, stench, and pestilence, and which
ought to have been the most thankful for the recommenda-
tion from the throne, and for its adoption, was the City of
London. What was the first thing that was dons ? His
noble friend at the head of the government, being member
for the City of London, withdrew that city from the bill ;
and although London was the original cause of the bill—of
the appointment of • committee and a commission to inquire
into military reform—it escaped from this bill. But still, the
omission of London from this bill was no reason why it
should not have been applied to other towns. However, the
bill, after lingering in a state of exhaustion, and then of Ma-
pended animation, suffered a death-struggle, and went the
way of all the bills of this session, except those which were
not good, and which had a pernicious vitality about them.
He had a great esteem for his noble friend who had charge
of that bill, and he was serer to see him so roughly handled;
but he believed he only yielded to the necessity of his situa-
tion. Then there was another bill of great importance—the
Thames Conservancy Bill. It was one almost of national
importance, for it concerned the navigation of that great
river, which was of such great importance to our mer-
cantile interests. That bill also was withdrawn, as was
the Prisons Bill, and two bills of lass importance,
the Scotch Marriage Bill, and the Bill for the Registration of
Births, Deaths, and Marriages, in Scotland. He had now
come to the last, and he round himself surrounded by a
whole troop of the ghosts of bills. All these shades of bills
gave a painful recollection of what they might have been
had they lived. It wee most unfortunate that this wholesale

•
shoulaeoup., end he thoughtthat
sent wW h ewe all wet Ilhe very wellereeld he hotter Mean
sea a weaken.. The constitntion tree wet to be
with Ms aft* and wealusem. It wee riled hg
Burnet, that Wiliam the Third said to Matti* les
whether a monarchy or a republic was the hest hem of
government, that there were excellent argeneialle en bath
sides, and he could not make up his =hit en the
subject ; but of one thing he was sere, OM any-
thing was better than a monarchy without . So
he (Lord Brougham) said si a ministry whew imps
Miley incapacitated them from performing the duties of
government. A weak government which could net cure a
single measure of itself could not possess that power of
giving protection to the people which was the aresniso of
their allegiance. He sincerely hoped that be might never
live to see such another session, or to see bills meet with
such a fate as the Railways Bill, the Landed lame:mance
(Ireland) Bill, and the Health of Towns Bill. He hoped
he might never sot bills so treated, and especially
one of such importance as that which had been
recommended by the Queen in her speech from the
throne, and which her Majesty's representative at Paris
hurried over to this country to support. He hoped the next
election would see the government strengthened by the voice
of the people, enhanad by its merits in the affections of the
people, and backed by such majorities in both houses
that there should be no doubt of their power—that they
may be a government so supported as to make clear
their responsibilities as a government, responsibilities
which did not now rest upon them, but were divided
between them and the people. His hope and trust
was that that want of responsibility would cease for
ever when parliament was restored to its functions by an
election, and that they would never see again, and have to
I lament over, a session so disappointing sad so ruinous to
the character of the ministry and hurtful to the reputation
lof the country at large. He begged to move that "an
humble address be presented to her Majesty, expressing the
1 deep interest which this house felt in the objects which
had been recommended to the attention of her Ma-
jesty : that it was with pain they admitted that
the whole of the subjects which had been contained
in her Majesty's recommendation, arid which were
of the highest importance, had not been so successfully dealt
with as to produce legislative measures to which the royal
assent could he given that it was painful for the house to
reflect that other subjects of importance which had been
submitted to parliament had been abandoned, without any-
thing effectual having been done : that the house expressed
an earnest hope that no other session will pass without more
having been done to improve the institution of the country,
end for the benefit of her Majesty's subjects, than it had
been found possible to accomplish in the session which was
now near its close ; and that the house now, as always, wil-
lingly and gratefully acknowledged her Majesty's paternal
care for her people.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that, although his
noble and learned friend disclaimed any factious motives in
the course he had taken, he had perhaps unwillingly, perhaps
erroneously, implied so much of blame not only against the
government, which he said he did not wish to attack, but
also against the general character of parliament, that it was
necessary for him (the Marquis of Lansdowne), not to allow
the motion to be put (to which he trusted their lordships
would give a direct negative), without making a few observe:
lions. His noble and learned friend said that there never wasa
session which equalled the present in disappointing expecte.
tion in the amount of measures which had, been withdrawn,
and in the inefficiency end mischief of those which had
passed. With regard to all those measures which had either
passed or been withdraws, there was not one word of con-
demnation uttered by his noble and learned friend which
did not apply equally to almost every session, under almost
every government- It had always happened that a situation
of things like the present, produced by the expectation of a
dissolution of parliament, caused the same unwillingness, if re'.
incapacity, to proceed with certain measures Wheu his noble
and learned friend raid that they must not too readily make
conceesion to popular feeling, he must recollect what was the
inevitable result of that measure which he (the Marquis
of Lansdowne) joined his noble and learned friend in sup-
porting, which was now the law of the laud, and which had
restored to a greet part of the people the franchise, of which
custom had long deprived them, and to the recovery of which
they were entitled, and by the acquisition of which the foun-
dations of government were strengthened. Did not his noble
and learned friend see what that result would be when he agreed
in favour of that measure of which he was so strenuous &sup-
porter, and which was carried after years of failure ? His noble
and learned friend must have been blind indeed, if he did
not see that when it was carried, the inevitable consequence
must be to render members of the other house of parliament
more attentive to popular feelings and opinions. Making no
allowance for this change, which had not operated this year
for the first time, his noble and learned friend said that the
withdrawal of several measures which had been introduced
was peculiar to this assion. Why, that very sanitary met-
sure, to which he had alluded, was brought forward and
withdrawni before, and without that apology which his
noble and learned friend admitted for its being withdrawn.
But the effect of its introduction in the present session was,
that it had materially advanced in public opinion. When
, his noble and learoed friend dwelt so complacently upon all
these shade. of bills, he (the Slerquis of Lansdowne) must
state in the outset, that if his noble and learned friend
meant that great and important Inca-ares became shadows
when they were withdrawn, he denied it, provided they
had justice for their foundation. No one knew bet-
ter than his noble and learned friend, for no one
had failed ()ranee in carrying bills, that even when
measures were not carried, if they were based on the solid
interests of the country they were fruitful even when they
were withdrawn, that they left seeds behind them which
fructified and caused the adoption of opinions favourable to
them ; and this was often the means of bills being brought
forward in a more perfect state, and made them better fitted
for operation, by the public being prepared to receive them.
He would admit to his noble and learned friend, that it was
only by stating again and again opinions which were un-
popular that the feeling against them was subdued. His
noble and learned friend knew that time was necessary
to carry such things into effect. Hn noble and learned
friend seemed to think that a strong government might have
passed the bills which had been withdrawn. He (ihe Mar-
quis of Lansdowne) did not know whether the government
to which he belonged was a strong one or a weak one, but
he did know, that there never was, or never would be, a
government so strong as to subdue public opinion, end to
carry, in one session of parliament, important changes.
What was the history of tke great changes in which his
noble and keened friend had taken part, but a struggle
against public opinion, on which it had been brought
to reason by argument, but still involving the loss of
bill after bin, in session after session ? He would mention
the bill which took away the monopoly of the East ladle
Company, at which government after government had
struck, and which was at last extinguished. What had been
the history of the Test Act, and of catholic emancipation ?
What but a struggle against opinion, which was ultimately
subdued by discussion. He said, therefore, that all measures
were carried by long discussion and by time ; and he was not
surprised at the number of ghosts of bills which prevailed,
and which were consigned to the regions of datructioe, but
some of which were destined to be called to lifeagain. Resew
came to the observations of his noble and learned friend with
regard to the actual legislation of the session. His Debased
learned friend had omitted a great deal that had been done
and if he would refer to the catalogue of billr which had been
pared, as well as those which had not been passed, he would
find that many bills of great importance had been passed
without attracting attention. He (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) did not judge of the importance of bills by the length of
speeches. For instance, some bills deeply important to the te-
nure of land in Scotland, had passed without any discussion
whatever. Weretheytocondemnusefulandimportantlegiela-
tien, because it had been effected without discussion ? (Hear
hear.) Then, had his noble and learned friend forgotten the
whole series of bills which had been passed for the relief of
Irish distress, and to alleviate the effects of famine in the
sister country? (Hess, hear.) His noble and learned
friend had stigmatised those measures as deserving the re-
probation of the house, but he had forgotten that they had
been proposed under the immediate pressure of one
of the greatest calamities that had ever befallen
any country. He had not hand his noble and
learned friend assert that famine, misery, and pes-
tilence were not to have been met without some effort to
stay their fearflal . (Hear, hear.) Such measures
as they had pared had met the evil ; no others had been
proposed by any party, and, therefore, he thought it could
not be fairly said that parliament had efected nothing in
this important matter. It should be remembered, also, that
the delay and discussion attendant on such measures, formed
an element in the difficulty of proceeding with others, of
the abandonment of which the noble and learned lord
complaned. With respect to the money advanced by way
of hen to Ireland, it should be remembered that it bore
a interest than could be obtained elsewhere, and see-
inifirrpunctualtty with which previous advances had been
Le thought it hard that his noble and learned friend
make a general charge of repudiation and insolvency
spied an entire nation. (Hear, hear.) His noble and
learned friend had also greatly overstated the number of
psalm in Ireland receiving relief on the public works. His
neileand Wessel friend mast have taken his figures from
ems old statement, es they did not at all correspond with
the hies es they stood at yr geassnt moment. He quite
=l with Me lOW leased friend se to the evil
etelemegisey measure when carried on extensively,
bat sash memo wen be course of rapid reduction in tre-
bled, end he wee begs) to add that notwithstanding the
*sem carrying eat Toffmeasures in furtherance of that re-
&Wks, there vas la sally rapid decrease is the amount
of salvage, maps of outrage spinet property.
(Hear, heart.) • The had been passed, and whiCh
his noble sad hazard Mod deprecated, were as be (the
Marquis atLeeedowne) telltseded essential to the salvation
of Ireland. But had all the legislation of the session been
confined to Irish distress? He found that bills had mused
respecting the importation of corn, and bills ing
the Importatuan of sugar and its use is dis"ttrlkries.
His noble and learned friend might stigmatise them as mere
temporary manures, but those measures bad had the effect
of bringing in an abundant supply of necessaries from every
quarter of the world. He contended on the whole that the
legislation of the session had been most valuable and im-
portant, and, therefore, he felt bound to meet the motion of
his noble end learned friend with a direct negative.
After a few words from Lord Baouoitem in reply, the
motion was negatived without a division.
The house adjourned at a quarter after eight until four
o'clock this day.

HOUSE OF OOMMONS.—TursDAY, JULY 20.
The Braixok took the ohs& at 3 o'clock.

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or rawer.
TRINIDAD.
--- -

In answer to a question from Mr. Helms,
Mr. HAWES said that the island of Trinidad would be
divided into districts for the purpose of establishing muni-
cipal institutions, with a view to ultimately conferring a
representative government on the people of that island, who
were not at present considered sufficiently advanced in civili-
sation to have such a privilege conferred on them.
THE BIBLE IN MADRAS.
Sir R. H. INOLIS wished to know whether it was true
that the Governer of Madras had objected to the eetablieh•
meat of a class in the university of that city, the attendance
on which was voluntary, because the Bible was to be read in
such elms ?
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE (who turned his back to the
gallery, and spoke very inaudibly) was understood to say
that the statement was substantially correct, but the Court
of Directors had discouraged the course which had been
taken by the governor.
DOCK YARDS.
_ _

Ia reply to Mr. HrautsT,---
Mr. WARD said that dockyard corps were purtly volun-
tary associations.
COLLIERY ACCIDENT.

In answer to a question from Mr. HINDLE;
Sir G. GREY said that he had been prevented from send-
ing an officer connected with the government to be present
at the inquest on the persons killed by a recent accident at
the Kirklces Hall colliery, in consequence of the ab-
sence of Sir H. de La Beche, whose duty it was to
have attended such an inquiry, or appointed a competent
person to do so. It appeared, however, from the statement
of live magistrates who had investigated the case, that the
accident was caused in consequence of the carelessness of one
of the workmen.