The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-16 00:00:00

INDIAN PRIZE MONEY.

Captain LAiiiiiiaskedaquestioi distribution
of the Khelaut and °hornet prise money, to which
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE answered that the prise money
resulting from the capture of Kbelaut,:was now in coarse of
distribution in India. With regard to the °hum.* prize
money, a difficulty had arisen, which had occasioaed some
delay. He believed, however, that orders had been given in
December last which would remove the difficulty, and the ,
money would be very shortly—if it was not greedy—in
course of distribution. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. li. J. BAILLIE inquired when the prise money re-
rolling from the capture of Scinde would be paid ?
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE observed that difficulties had
arisen also in that cue, and the matter had been referred by
the prize agents to the Court of Directors and the Beard of
Control. The Court of Directors had already come to a
decision, and the questions referred were now under the con-
sideration of the Bard of Control: their derision would
also be given very shortly, and the money would then be
Paid-
RELIEF WORKS (IRELAND).
Captain HARRIS had read, circular that day in the
papers from Captain Gilbert, the officer at the head of the
Bard of Works of the Sligo' district, which was a document
containing eraggesidons, which, under the present cireum-
Mentes of Inhibit, were of a very valuable Ware. The
ekcialar was as Mows:—

aro, Meer areaterre iseler rim Werke bred
Oa MI perm ire ism k is art row win arearse Yrs&
ear ac pr Nei Ire Ike prell. New gess lisle wow sallerl
ea Sr pear works le Serer striding ea lie oces lerl. Mb et
11tur ea sal seml sr at lie Ina*lic wet Is sler
vlce wires Is Mee are et i Yaws =Ss ries
=Sir esqleurer, Awn way Is re Ewer err=
ece es rag se he mg worm sirs lin alrellYar e ret
es/s. les mar wYIMYer rem owe ft re purees uls-
userlas ear sr. Darr IM lelle feserilsgeller M awe
re blemsere eerie tele wedby say Ore Ibek
erre le Mrollsedy ark elf lbe wiresr
Imre be ea reedit sirs. Meer Tesplers Mrs to
riot Is Ire WS mg snip le Or Nem =Ord es
th• wine alltkul *ln kik welttap re earnre-
ter Ile re dr* Meer wM ip ilidsrpoll Ira
the wore. P. Y. Onaer. hopeedss
He was anxious to know whether this bed been real es a
general document by the Board of Works, or whether it was
confined to Sligo ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that the eircullr, nada

the circtunatimece of the country, was Meet judicious and
proper. He would make it • point to inquire whether the
circular had been issued as a general measure by the direc-
tions of the Board of Worla, or whether it was confined to
Sligo. H. hylieced, however, that it was not general, hut
that it had pr. needed solely from Captain Gilbert, in refer-
ence to the Sligo district.
Captain HARRIS hoped the notice would be made to a:-
ply generally throughout the country.
Mr. LABOCCR ERE had no doubt directions would be
given by the Board of Works for that purpose.
NAVAL SERVICE AND PRISONS.
_ . . .

Mr. WARD gave notice of the introduction of a bill to
extend the period of service for boys in the Royal Navy, and
of a bill to establish naval prisons, and to prevent desertion
from the navy. Ile also gave notice of the postponement of
the committee on the Docks, Harbours, and Piers Classes
Dill from Tuesday to Thursday next.
THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
•

Mr. C. siiiilLiTinfiuTn-31;luTt;;;;;tie final inten-
tions of the government respecting the removal of this statue ;
and whether, in the event of its being rc moved, they had taken
any security for throwing the expense of removal en the
Wellington committee
Lord MORPHIM said it was the intention of the govern-
ment to remove the statue from its present site, and that men
were sari any rngugcd in doing so.
ETON MONTEM.
. .

Mr. JAMES asked if the decision of the provost and
heed master of Etuu College to discontinue the montem
was likely, as was suspected, to be reversed by high intlucnee,
and if ao, whether it would not be desirable and proper
to introduce a bill to exempt the young gentlemen who
were engaged i t those diacreditsble triennial proceedings
om the penalties to which they thereby su I ected themse Ilea?
Thee went about collecting money; and for that were
liab:o to be apprehended under the vagrant act—an offence
which, if accompanitsl by threats, would amount to a charge
of highway robbery. (Cries of " Order.")
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that when the provost and head
master informed het Majesty of their intention, they la-
quires' whether he (Lerd J. Russell) would advise her Ma-
jesty to interfere so as to induce them to forego or suspend
it ; and his answer was, that the provost and bead master
were the beat authorities by which such a question could be
derided; and he therefore certainly would not advise her
Majesty to interfere with their decision. (Hear.)
SUGAR DUTIES.
In reply to a question from Lord G. BENTINCO,
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was perfectly true, when he
proposed thu measure fur making the sugarduties permanent,
that ho stated it to be the intention of the government not
to alter the practice of allowing clam to be annually reviewed
by parliamuut. Since then he had received representations
from various quarters, alleging that considerable public in-
convenience would flow from such a courest; the subject was
taken into consideration by the cabinet, end since the com-
mencement of the sesaiun, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had declared that they hail arrived at the determination net
to propose that the present duties should be made annual.
But there were various vote. amongst the miscellaneous and
other estimate', and afterwards the Appropriation Act,
which gave the house sufficient coetrol over them.
EXPORT OF CORN FROM PORTUGAL.
Lord J. MANNERS inquired if the government had
received any authentic information to the °fleet tlmt the Por-
tuguese government had prohibited the exportation of corn
from that e• ry ?
Lard J. RUSSELL replied that some information had
been received, hut declined to state the amount of it till to-
morrow (this day).
VAGRANTS (IRELAND) BILL
In reply to a question from Mr. FITZORRAI.II,
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was his intention to introduce
a vagrants' bill for Ireland before, or immediately after,
Enver.

DRAINAGE OF LAND BILL.
Mr. CAYLEY observed, that of the 2,000.00f1f. to he
granted under this bill, three fourths were for Sea:land, and
one-fourth for England. This was very unfair, and he
wished to brow wht User any further grant would be made
hereafter to enable the landed proprieters of this count, y to
derive the same advantage front the public money as those of
Scotland?

Sir O. GREY said that so far from thrre being any un-
fairness in the &unbutton of the grant, there was not a
single application before the government, if the party mud.
out their ease, which would not be granted to the extent of
10,000 f., the amount to which the loan was to be limited.
THE CUSTOMS BILL.—THE RAILWAY BILL.
Lord 0. BENTINCI: inquired when these bills wouldbe
proceeded with ?
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER maid that,
in consequence of the poor-law debate, he could not name an
earlier day than Monday next, although ho had intended to
take Friday ; but the government would tint proceed with
the Peer Relief Bill in committee.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL-ADJOURNED

DEBATE.

Sir W. CLAY resumed the debate on the question of going
into committee on this bill. The opponents of the measure,
he observed, had overhoked ore important consideration by
dealing with it as if it conferred at once upon the
:461e-bodied nn immediate and absolute right to relief,
whereas it contained no such provision, and only gave them
a right to relief through the intervention of the poor-law
commissioners, in whom it vested a discretionary authority
to • most unusual :text. It also gave to the executive go-
vernment large and extraordinary powers, but not greater
than the =entity of the ease required. This country had
shown its lei:howlers to relieve the suffering poor of Ireland
in their present extremity; but there existed in it at the
same time a strong feeling that Ireland should eventually be
compelled to support her own poor, as in England and Scot-
land. Previous to the fusing of the present law, ever
country in Christendom had a poor-law in some kern, excep
Ireland. To the eternal disgrace of that country, as well as of
England, it was passible for human beings to perish in
it of famine, without any law by which they could obtain
relief; and yet surprise was continually expressed at the
soezal condition of Ireland—at its secret aseciations and
agrarian outrages, as well no at the failure of the measures
which were pawed to put down that state of things. Bat
there was to be observed, through all their legislation, the
greatest neglect of the condition of the Irish peasantry ; who
could not be expected to rest contsnted with law. which
merely checked and controlled them, but which brought
them no additional comforts cr means of support.
He was not one who was diapered to speak harshly of the
conduct of landlords in Ireland, as it seas as unfair as unphi-
losophical to lay the blame on individuals which belonged to
a system. It was, then fore, in no spirit of hostility to the
proprietors of Ireland, that he supported a poor-law, hut be-
cause he believed it would add to their prosperity and
wealth. The compel-Mon made by the right bun. gentleman
the Recorder of Dublin, between the counties of Norfolk and
Mayo, might hare been carried further, and it might have
been shown that if the poor in England had not the security
which they now possessed, Norfolk might be in the same
situation aa Mayo. The principle of out-door relief had
been preserved in the Amended Poor-low Act, for England,
though it was placed under the supervision of a central
board, and the experience of thirteen years had proved that
it worked well and that out-door relief was the most effec-
tual relief that could be given to the poor. The report on
the poor-law of foreign countries in 1834 showedjthat while a
poor- law of some kind existed in every country, yet that af
England was the most effectual for the relief of the poor ;
and this opinion was stated by Mr:Berger in that report.
He was not prepared to adds, all the vituperation
which bad been cast on Dist heiMords by some news-
papers, or in the unmeasured lingeige used towards them
by hi.: boss. friend the member for Bath. Yet 'tritium them
might be fairly set the unmeasured language uttered in Con-
ciliation Hall fur a series of years. Yet he thought that was
not the tone in which these subjects should be discussed.
He was desirous that the landlords of Ireland should be mole
the main instruments of the regeneration of Ireland, and
therefore he gave his willing assent to the Landed Property
Bill. He believed that tho treasures of the government
were for the benefit of Ireland, and he should support them
as he would have done others of which he entertained the
same opinion which came from any part of the house, and
believing also that they were actuated by the best intentions
towards England as well as Ireland, they should receive his
cordial support.
Captain JONES, who was very indistinctly heard, was
understood to say that it had been raid by the noble lord at
the head of the government that the rating in Ireland was
Sid. in the pound. That was so in 1846, when the number
of paupers in the workhouses was 43,764; but in 1847, when
the numbers were 101,889, the rating was 14d. in the pound.
He was not a party to the resolutions which had been passed
by what was called the Irish party, for he thought those
resolutions should have admitted that the poor should be
supported from the soil, and not be leg entirely to the can
of the government. He was long ego of opinion that an ex-
tension of the poor-law system in Ireland was n
and that every man had a nght to relief subject to thlernitri'.
house test, but he was not then an advocate for out-door re-
lief. lie feared the result of general out-door relief would
be to place the rate-payer in a worse position than the pau-
per. But he was now for an extension of out-door relief in
Ireland, and if he rightly understood the noble lord (J. Rus-
sell) it was intended that no out-door relief should be
given until the workhouses were full; and if the bill was
altered to that effect. he should have no objection to It.
Mr. V. STUART raid that while he was quite ready to
concur in the measure which was now propounded hy her
Majesty's government, he would not be a party to the blame
which, in the course of the present debate, had been cast
upon the boards of guardian, in Ireland. It should not he
forgotten that in Ireland the poor-law commissioners, instead
of meeting the views of the guardians, had seemed to desire
to act in opposition to them i the selection of Bites for work-
houses was an instance of this, and the consequence had been
that a lad feeling between the two bodies had been gene-
rated. Still he maintained that the boards of guardian. had
properly discharged their duty. With respect to the poor-
law itself, it was not at all suited to the feelings of the Irish
people—it was contrary to their habits to become subject to
the restraints which residence in the workhouse entailed,
and to this cause, coupled with the fact that the poorest
dew was ready to share its last potato with a distressed
neighbour, was to be attributed the circumstance that the
weelthouaes had not been full of inmates. (Hear, hear.)
Materlthstanding this, his impression was most strong in
Seem of a measure which should enable the boards of guar-
dian. in Ireland te administer out-door relief. The present
law, on the failure of the potato crop, Lad proved a perfect
fame, and believing that the measure now brought forward
ley her Majesty's government was absolutely necessary, he
dimalel give to it his hearty support.
Mr. O. A. HAMILTON complained of the manner in
which charges had been brought against individuals who
were not in parliament, and, therefore, unable to meet them,
by the hon. baronet, the member for Marylebone, (Sir B.
Hall) and by the hon. member for Mayo, and still more
gnat he complain that from these charges inferences had
been drawn, inculpating the whole class to which the parties
charged belonged. The hon. hart. had also indulged in attacks
• upon the supineness of the residents in the union of Kan-
, turk in the county of Cork. In reference to these attacks he
(Mr. Hamilton) had received a letter from a gentleman mai-
' dent in that district, Mr. Leader, the son of a former member

althea house. Mr. Leader writes—" I perceive some oh-
es
rvatioas have been made by Sir B. Hall relative to the
smallness of the contributions made by Hancock to the
rebel
fend. Now, before the hon. baronet condemned the rose.
dents of the district, he ought to have let the public know the
fact that, at the October sessions for Kunturk, 51,0001. was
voted to give employment to the population ; that on the
24th December 12,0001, mare had been voted ; and in Fe-
bruary last 24,000/., which had been required to complete
the work., was also agreed to. This gave a total of 87.0001.,
which at the time it was voted it was believed would have
to be repaid with interne" (Hear, hear.) The letter pro-
ceeded to remark that " in the etcetera' division alluded to
by Sir B. Hall, a poor-rate of Is. 6d. in the pound had juit
been made in addition to n rate of 33. in the pound, made in
November last, and now in the course of collection. So
that with the poor-rates, and the monies voted under
the Labour Rate Act, 100,0601. had been contributed by
Hanturk ; an amount which exceeded the rental of the
Union. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him to be most un-
fair and unjust to charge 'nett members with indiffereace
and even/um to the condition of the people of Ireland be-
cause they objected to the adoption of the principle of out-
door relief. All that they required was the retention of the
workhouse test, and with that test they wero ready to sanc-
tion any expenditure of money raised upon Irish property
that might be necessary to meet the exigency which exited;
but he asked the house to pause, and take care not to check
that spirit of improvement which already had manifested
itself in Ireland, at shown from the increased deposits in the
savings banks, and the consumption of articles coming within
the category of customs and excise regulations. It Ireland was
to be raised from her present prostraes condition, it must be
by encouraging the industry of the labouring population,
and by inducing the cattier, to exhibit in their own country
the same industry which chnracterisesl them here, and there-
fore he invited the house not to sanction, by hasty legisla-
tion, a system of improvident out-door relief which would
perpetuate the indolent feeling which already prevailed. He
thought the noble loot at the head of the government had
wholly failed to show that his present measure would remove
the economical difficulties of which he spoke, when the depu-
tation of gentlemen connected with Ireland waited upon
him. Lot the noble lord apply this measure to :he social
difficulties which he (Mr. Hamilton) was about to ex
hibit. To arrive at a just conclusion as to the
social difficulties of Ireland, the census of 1841 af-
forded abundant means. That document represented the
condition of the people of Ireland under various aspects.
He would take as an example, the county of Mayo: that
county had an area of 136,000 acres, and, excluding the
population of town., which had 3,000 inhabitants and
upward., contained a population of 370,000; without deduct-
ing from that number children under the age of five years,
there were out of that 370,000 no fewer than 255,987 who
could neither read nor write. With respect to house accom-
modation, the census of 1841 divided it into four classes, and
of the first clans, namely, decent residences, it appeared there
were in Mayo 217 houses, containing 23t families ; of the
vetoed class, that was farm-houses, them were 3,012,
containing 3,306 families; of the third class. namely
houses built of mud, with mud Soon, and having
windows and chimneys, there were 22,000, containing 22,605
families; and of the 4th clam, namely, houses built of mud,
with mud floors, and having neither windows nor chimneys,
there were 41,000, containing 41,803 families. The next
point which the census furnished information upon was the
means of those families. These were divided into three
daises Ist., families which possessed means without
labour, including professional men and farmers of mot
than 50 acres, of which there were 809 families. The
2nd class eonsprised thou who possessed means to live, but
not without labour, 9,761. And the 3rd class included those
whopoeseesed no means, either in capital, land, or knowledge,
and of this clam the number wu 54,982. (Hear.) That being
the social condition of the county of Mayo, he now came
to its valuation. Including the large towns of Caetlebar,
Weetport, and Bailin*, the county valuation was 299,8511.
f he county rate and grand jury cem last year was 39,1891.,
which left 260,6621. subject to rent cheraes, and to the
labour rate charge, to say nothing of inciumbrances, which he
Mayo are very considerable. t sus, there was a reeled at
260,0001. for the support of 67,000 families, consisting of
370,000 persons, of whom 251,000 above the age of tier
'tare could neither read nor suite ; 65,000 out of the 67,006
families lived in mud houses, and of these. 41,000 lived In
houses consisting of a tingle room, and without windows
(Hear, hear.) This was one of the worst accounts which
had yet been laid before the house. In the town of West-
port, out of 13,000 occupiers, 11,000 were rated under 41.,
and consequently did not pay rates at all. In some of
the baronies in the county of Mayo, where there
were a great number of the cottier holders, it
was stated that there was a change in each occupancy,
on an average, once in two years. In such a state of things
the great mass of these cattier holders being now employed
on the public works, and the workhouses being full, the system
of out-door relief could not hare a fair trial. All who were
now recipients of 'relief would continue to be go ; and how
could that be supported by a country ? It would have been
a wiser course for the government to have made a more cau-
tious experiment. To supply temporary relief to a starving
population was the first duty of a christian community,
whatever might be the consequence ; but when a measure
was brought forward which bore most importantly on the
whole social condition of tho country, it was necessary to
consider whether such measure would be effectual for the
purposes for which it was designed. Instead of introducing
a measure 'calculated to develop the resources of Ireland, to
stimulate the industry of the people, and to en-
courage the spirit of improvement which was ad-
mitted to exist amongst all classes but the lowest,
the government, by the bill now before the house, would dis-
appoint the people by holding out expectations of relief
which could not be realised. The first effect of this measure
would he to reduce the union of Westport to a mass of
pauperism, which would soon extend to „the whole county
of Mayo, and the adjoining county of Roscommon. The
system might possibly work well in the northern counties
of Ireland, but ce,tainly not iu those which ho had referred
to, where the result would be the greatest confusion and
rain.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said he should support this measure,
but not for any of the reasons which had been assigned by
the noble lord at the head of the government. He had not
formed part of the deputation which had waited on the
noble lord; but he would endeavour to state briefly what
measures he thought ought to have been pressed on the
attention of the house, in preference to the one under
discussion. Within the last fortnight, the accounts with
reference to the neglect of tillage were more alarming than
they had been before. (Here the hon. gentleman read ex-
tracts from the Irish journals, and some private letters, in
proof of this statement.) In this state of things he
feared the noble lord would see cause to regret, before
autumn, that he had not taken steps more decisively to en-
courage private enterprise. Ile had understood the noble
lord to say that 20 per cent. of the labourers new employed
on public works throughout the country were to be dismissed
on Saturday next. If this were so, nothing more calculated
to produce a violent convulsion in Ireland had ever been
done, or attempted by any ministry. It was impossible that
private employment maid take up this large moat of la-
bour; the step was one which would be most dinstrous
to the peace of the country, and he implored the noble lord
not to pursue this course. As to the promised Vagrancy
Act, he conceived that any attempt to check vagrancy and
mendicancy, in the present circumstances of the country,
would be utterly ratite and mint dangerous. Again, he un-
derstood the noble lord to propose that all small holders of
land should be dismissed from the public works ; the only
effect of that would be to cause these men to throw up their
holdings, and to sink into the most destitute clam. Al he had
said, he should support the bill under discussion, not for any of
the reasons advanced by the noble lord, but in the hope thatit
might afford some small modicum of relief, might save a few
lives; fur that it would not do more, that it would not be
effective as a permanent, or even temporary, measure of
relief he was firmly persuaded. This objection applied to
tho whole of the measures which had been proposed by the
government. But if the Irish members were willing to
waive their objections to a poovlaw, and accept this measure'
as a forlorn hope, let not the noble lord himself throw diffi-
culties in the way of his own bill which must render in
operation meet injurious. In England, five millions sterling of
poor-rates were required for the support of 1,400,000 paupers,
while in Ireland there were between three and four millions
of paupers to commence with. Any attempt to collect rates
sufficient for the support of such a number mast inevitably
crush all the smaller rate-payers, and reduce them to the
class of paupers, thus swelling the burden and rendering it
intolerable. To the great and almost insuperable difficulties
in the way of this bill the noble lord had added another—
the admission of magistrates to tho boards as ex officio
guardians. The certain effect of this would be to render
the measure inoperative. From all parts of the country
be lead letters from Roman Catholic clergymen
and others, pointing out the dangenaue nature
of this clause, and calling on the Irish members firmly to
oppose it. These communications showed that religious
acrimony and disputes had been engendered in many parts
by the differences between the ex officio and elected
guardians. From a return in his hand, he found that in
every county in Ireland the Roman Catholic magistrates
were in a very small minority. In three of those counties,
Donegal, Fermanagh, and Tyrone, there was not a single
Heenan Catholic magistrate. The total number of Roman
Catholic magistrates in Ireland was 419; of Protestants,
2,611. If these es officio guardians were admitted to the
boards in great numbers, there would be no security for the
education In their own faith of the poor Catholic children in
the workhouses. This grievance was already severely felt,
and would be feit in a still greater degree, if the clause he
had alluded to should pan tato law. If, with the view of
creating a fusion of sects, one sect was allowed to tyrannise
over another, the result would not be conciliation end
fission, but a greater amount of religious animosity
and bickering than hail ever yet existed in un-
Vrtuuate Ireland. Therefore, on every ground—on
the ground of security in their religion to the
paupers and their children (with whom there had beau se-
veral gross cases of interfereace), as well as on the
of rendering the law one that might be worked—be
im-
plored ministers to reconsider this clause which, hoes all
experience, woad render the bill a mockery of the Minket
of the country. Though he had not formed part et like de-
laction to whom the question had been put by dm nab
ord (J. Russell), what measures they had to he
would tell the noble lord that, in his opinion, it wooY bate
been much better to adopt some strong temporary ressanse,
instead of forting a doubtful measure forward, whoa these
was not time foe its fair consideration. He thought that
the loan ought to have been increased three or fonnishl I he
the amount already borrowed was utterly insdegmelle far ate
purpose. That should have been one of the bet aessimes
adopted. If Irish members were to be bunited end at-
tacked, as they continually were, by Regale arawati, and
amused of begging for English gold, he hesitated sot
to say that the money they asked was no mere
than their own, of which they had boa de-
prived by the provisions of the Act of Mike.
He was of opinion that if instead of a poor-law, a bap
loan R ago a gnat of now was Om to Istital, it

which the government proposed to meet the state of things
whieh stared them in the face ? '1 he great facts of the case
were known to them all. It la id been calculated that
900,000 heads of families had been deprived of their
ordinary means of subsistence by the failure of the
potato. Admitting that there was some exaggera-
tion in that ealeuistion, and making eve deduction,
New meld net be lest than 800,000 beads of farm les who
wens deprived etßMie enstomary means of support. Would
emy in Me Um say that 640,000 heads of families
be willesbmil by • poor-law? (Hear, hear.) No
pmenavredd belesidl enough to hazard such an assertion. He
admitted that the mounres proposed by the government to
accompany the poor-law were good, but his complaint was
that they were inadequate. There was not one word in the
noble lord's last speech about the reclamation of the waste
lands: not the faintest allusion lad been made to it. (Hear.)
He did not know if he was to conclude from that si!eutc
that the scheme was to be abandoned. He hoped that it
was not, but admitting that It would be persevered in and
carried into effect, add crowned with all the success which
the noble lord ever anticipated from it, still it would not
have any considerable influence in diminishing the enormous
mass of unemployed labour in Ireland. The noble lord prp-
pmedl,ooo,oool. fur this purpose, and calculated the cost of re-
clamation at 81. per acre. That would enable them to reclaim
125,000 acres. The noble lord proposed 30 acres as the aver-
age size of the farms. This would create a class of peasant
farmers amounting to 5,000 souls. There were, then, these
5,009 heads of familie to be subtracted from the 600,000. Ills
noble friend the member for Lynn, whose accuracy in these
matters was well known, estimated them at only 3,500. But
Mtn the contemptuous jokes of the hon. member for Wy-
combe (Mr. Osborne), and the perhaps still more con.
temptuous jokes of the right hon. b ,ronet the member for
Tamworth, it was to be feared that this scheme would be
abandoned altogether. The noble lord did not propose to
make an extensive grant for the puttees of emigration. He
would allow that 5,000 heads of families would likewise be
provided for by emigration. He would make ample allow-
ance for the persons to be employed in the fisheries and pub-
lic works, and Irons the loans to be 'advanced to the land-
lords, but he could not, upon the mat favourable
calculation, come to the conclusion that more than
100,000 heads of families would be provided for.
What then was to become of the half million families who
would still remain ? The measure of the noble lord, the
member for Lynn, would bare absorbed, both directly and
indirectly, a vast amount of labour. The noble lord at the
head of the zoeerameat had on all OCCAROS/ laid great stress
on the efforts of Irish landlords ; but as the poor-law would
scud to depress theee efforts,the other measures for encouraging
employment must only have credit for the amount of labour
which they would actually absorb. They were bound to
take every possible precaution 'that the system of peer
laws should stimulate, and not depress, the exertions el,
landed proprietors. If the measure under oonsideration
called oat the energies of the Irish pee* they
would hereafter be consoled, in keldesi bask em
the present calamity ; if it had a coateary elect the
feeling would be of a very different kind. He with
his hon. friend, the member for Norton= (Mr.
Stafford O'Brien), in objecting to that a the bill
which put the good and the bed ea the mon
footing, and made no distinction between a pines who it
his estate and attended to the wants of his tenantry,
and one who squandered his income at Bath or Naples
(hear, hear)—and he hoped that every English member
would resist the imposition upon his Irish brethren of a
burden which would destroy in Ireland the last remnant
of that ancient territorial system upon which the grandeur of
E.gland so much depended. The effect of that portion
of the bill would be, that the man who could point
with hones• pride to a contented peasantry and a thriving
tenantry, wosid be told, " True, you deserve well of your
' neigbkmern, sod have dime all in your power for your
dspenimens bus the OM mime broad WU are on yonder
meimileinea who won the steeple-chase last year at Paris, or
OM Chnttehimmimes esliew an without chimneys or will-
ems Whale tomb dig !o_er of the existence of their
Wand thiselth the widow visits of his agent, he has
his duty, and yea must share with him the penalty
:Itetleglect." (Hem.) He (Lord J. Manners) was
berisablo le fie priaciple at ont-door relief; but unless the
Inshihrenee teak 1041 that in making the property of Ireland
eimweraide See ha poverty, it did not depress and annihilate
that upon which all agreed that poverty must depend for its
mahttenarice, they would be inflicting a curse rather than a
bees iii framing an extended poor-law iystam. (Hear.)
the agreed with the noble lord in thd glowing hopes which
be had expressed that the old feuds, the old jealousies, and
the aid hatreds of by-gone years would now be extinguished.
(Hear, hear.) lie sincerely hoped, that in the great afflic-
tion which had fallen on the nation all jealousies would be
buried in oblivion, and that the future historian, after
recounting sad struggles between two rival com-
munities and two hostile races, and after paint.
kV the horrors of this eventful winter, would be
MY, in ememencing a new chapter, to say,
-- henceforth nil discord radii,
Or conunoa woe Lath made two rivals friends.
He trued that the historian would not have henceforth to
reseed what Bishop Berkeley said 100 years ago, that the
eandition of Irelaad continued to be the reproach of the
government and parliament of England.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he would confine himself to
the the
extension main principle involved in the measure, the
extension of the right of out-door relief, however q
to the able-bodied poor of Ireland. He should be
willing to rest the justification of the measure on the
speeches of three gen•lemen connected with Ireland, the
noble lord the member f it Devonshire (Lord Courtenay), the
hommember forWsterford (as we understood)hir. Stuart, and
the hon. and gallant member for Londonderry (Capt.
Jones), gentlemen who had in their respective localities
alwaysac evinced en anxiety to improve the condition of the
p around them. These members, who were no mere
thouvisre, thought tt et in the pewee: onnlitioe e` Defend it
was absolutely necessary that th a house should affirm the
proposition which formed the main principle of the bill. He
had up to that time heard no satisfactory answer to that
most pregnant question which his noble friend had put to
those who were opposed to the ineunre,namely, what alter-
native they had to suggest? (Hear.) Whatever might be
the necessity of making a temporary provisioc no member
had proposed that the imperial treasury should Lo perma-
nently burdened with the support of the Irish poor; it was
admitted by all to be right that the destitution of Ireland
should be supported by the property an 1 the moil of Ireland.
(Hear, beer.) The noble lord who hod just sat down
seemed to rest his objection upon the fact that the measure
was not accompanied with the railway scheme of the noble
lord the member for Lynn ; but while he (Mr. Labouchere)
did not undervalue the importance of railways, be
still doubted that the measure of the noble lord
was a panacea or specific which would have re-
sulted in the cure of Ireland. The honourable member
for the University of Dublin had remarked, that in
certain pare of Ireland, and especially in the county of
Mayo, the proposed system must break down, on account of
the great burden which would be imposed by it. Why, the
property of Mayo could not even now support its poverty,
nor would other parts of Ireland be able to struggle through
their difficulties without exertion on the part of Irishmen,
and the employment of Irish capital. He had never joined
in the sweeping invectives directed against Irish landlords.
lie thought that they had in that respect suffered grata
Injastice; and if as great pains had been taken to
Wag to light instances of landlords who, under circura-
shame of great discouragement, bad exerad thenaselves to
improve the condition sad save the lives of those around
them, a very different imprimis& would have been produced
in this wealry. If they /mew how many of the uaobtrusive
ire et Ireland lad given up their incomes.—(hear, hear)
their books, Mated their expenditure, established
soopicians,and personally exerted themselves in co-opera-
tion with their families to relieve the destitute,
it would be seen that great injustice had been
dew to the possessors of property in that country.
But this was quite consistent with saying, that in essay in-
stances the legislature and the government had not received
that support from the gentry of Ireland which they had a
right to expect. (Hew, hear.) He wished to draw no dis-
tinctions. The exertions of the landlords generally,
vete charity and in rendering assistance to the
neighbours, could not he denied ; but what he bad to ems-
plain of was that some had not sufficiently coesidered their
public duty. Nor was this a matter of surprise, whim they
looked at dill peculiar difficulties' which in legated attached
to this performance of those public duties; while, ea the other
hood, it was well known that charity and munificence
were eongeuisl to the Itish nature. There were instances
of great exudes en the part of Irish gentlemen to alleviate
Vas Mine wields pnrrlLd. And icier beams redeems
osmnselni with licedend bed been mderred te—end whose
names bed been &mensal: mensismed with puke, that he
felt Wine le Inland to nismtien ate name cenneMed with
that erormery swkich would bear the most famed., ems,
purism with the landlords 4 flatland, or of any pert etas
empire. He quoted this MOM sot became there were net
many examples of the SW bird, but bows it happened
to be the last to which his attention had been mina. lie
ought to premise that be knew main el the gene=ra
himself except so far as he bed been ken& wader his
notice by the letter of a goalie ellieer, Captain O'Brien,
writing eillcially to Mr. Walks, The nese is the gentle-
man was Bir R. Booth, and the mese of his exertions wee
Sligo—it. • district where the disarm wee particular severe.
The War was to the following ion :
Or Mad Beathb Wets is law, sad the =Wks he kw'
reed wadi Ism Mae at 10 am veil or eigt, were he
set posed eke le dad Me astahlward lacuna. At his ow*
ykee. Lomb% la Imo Ma/MOM two sem tellers, which
add 00 10 rani Of IMP ; me I edssieted the sem at
Ye saw la web Idler to be skeet Ida N. Hs gives, gra-
adionily.__,_llllo 'Am et di sew par cis y, ea& itg, Is.
Be cgs, elz Mae la the welt. LW laww
prretal=', Way kw sr Wpm dm the Ilimems
lad la Ilip. sell sell by 111M1 at IL prr ML Ls alto
sdk al tow et Mika NM per wt at a ralloorl pal mg aim •
vodka et lalba sera is al wows idly. la Mk wrawastdbe has
VALkr thepeer, sad estALW.Lec:sit ass
le, Ire Oa Mb of IN 4.1711=
kw, le Ine; •Wkellisatdear, i lank 5 ;des, Stew ;
adzes* LI Owe; kW, IC baa lb beseall adaiddest kiosk sad
he Ye ordered ea la sea swaseek la'me's--biles sera, I,WS
WEI j rim seed sate, al lose; ale of is wed. !Sleek Ha
Ms wry et elk deeese k Orewedr, lady la be tklyprd, bat be le
la t.....lessa=tlidgmbelerZeopetamealset
is. IldworlereAt
= Own!, IS kw dad, sad itMetkeleyweeL =wed
veins dem It Ilie wieneint sold wit U. Meet Usk la
kW,* Ilie Wipe garely dived tremenal kW Idea What he
las Was kr Se pert
weld la alai he maw ke
kat se led dwa, Oat I /wars real Moir to =Ms hist
1 lade es!

would be nothing more them doing her justice. lie made
that statement because at the time of the union, it was die-
needy provided that Ireland ought not to be subjected to
English liabilities, unless it was found that Intend had so
improved as to justify that imposition. In 1816 there was
an excess of 16,000,0001. of annual debt charge, of which
Ireland had to pay two parts, and England had to pay
fifteen parts. It was declared by the ministers of the time
that that proposition was unjustly high for Ireland. Thea
the Consolidation Act was passed, which subjected Ireland'
to the liabilities of Eagle ; that act was an illegal and
unconstitutional act according to the terms of the eat of
union; and the consequence was that 'retail.' hail hem
since the act of union subjected to all the debt liabilities of
England, contracted before the union. If that net had nos
passed, England would bane to pay the whole of the
16,000,0001. There was much owing to Ireland on account
of that debt, and be thought that, in consideration of the
injustice that was done them, the small boon of a loan ought
at nest begiven them. Some hon. members spoke of the gene-
rosity el Residua at this time,. but though he admired, revery
body mast do, the admirable instances of charity exhibited by
priests individuals in England. still the conduct of the En-
glish parliament was anything but generous and liberal. He
was of opinion that a large loan to Ireland would be the pro-
per measure, such as that which had been proposed for the
construction of railroads in that country. His desire, also,
was to have introduced an absentee tax, which would
-n eh the rich absentee at • titre when tho rate-
payers were almost reduced to pauperism, and make
the non-resident landlords go home and encounter the
danger of having fever enter within their own hails,
so as to compel them to relieve the people. It
had been asked what would an Irish parliament do under the
existing circumstances. His answer wee, that no matter
what may have been the misconduct of any former Irish
parliament, no resident parliament could bring ti ,e country
to the state in which it now is. They could take pre of the
people, and the public voice would have an influence on them
which it could not have on an English pediment. The
hon. and learned member for Bath told them that he was
ready to allow them to shift for themselves. If they had to
shift for themselves, they had plenty of resources to fall
back upon. In Ireland the duties on customs, stamps, and
those relating to the Post office were equal to those in Eng.
land, yet the produce of taxation in these departments in
England was 27,000,0001, whist, it was only 3,000.0001. in
Ireland. The population was 8,000,000 in Ireland, while in
England it we, 18,000,000, and the receipts in Ireland ought
to be 12,000,0001., instead of 3,000,0001. The contribitions
ought to be as eight to eighteen, if the people were kept in
a proper condition, hut such a result must be expected while
the people were in their present wretched state. It was be-
cause of the poverty of Ireland that their contributions bore
such a small proportion. It was stated that it was the greet
desire of parliament to benefit Ireland, and to put her on an
equal footing with England. But how did they begin?
They he'en by equalising the taxes aid burthene, bat not
by equalising the rights and privileges of the people. The
measures brought forward to benefit Ireland had in most
cases failed, and were generally calculated to heap insult on
the people of the country. Tho hon, gentleman concluded
by again objecting to that portion of the bill which increased
the number of ex-of/leio guardians is Ireland.
Lord COURTENAY rose to express his intention of
porting the general principle of the bill. If ha looked at it
m a measure intended only to meet this ems,
gamy, he would agree with those who felt it air uty to
oppose It at • step which would entail absolute ruin on In-
land under Its present circumstances. Again, if he looked
en it as a single measure, and separate from those various
nremares whisk the noble lord had brought in, and these
Wawa which be believed it was his intention to introduce,
be then rise amid think that it was capable of doing groat
mishists hat imideg as he did on it as but one, though a
wee iummtsed one, of a set of measures introduced by the
moths lead, awl intended by him to work concurrently and
matemporenermody with them, he thought he was fa=
tiled in reoleseing this as one of the most important
meats that weld be adopted for the social and weal
masa of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Ii 'rested with the
Inds themselves to avert that ruin which was impendineliti
them, by availing themselves of the facilities which t
were now affording them of increasing employment, an
promoting that good which they now had the opportunity
of doing. (Hear, hear.) He believed that an extended
poor-law, if judiciously worked, might be the means not
merely of affording a most wholesome and necemary stimu-
lus to landlords to give employment, but would produce a
most beneficial change in the habits of the people. There
wee one question which the noble lord put to the deputation
which presented a memorial to him, to which be referred,
and the reply to which they bad heard from him. That
question was, what were they to do for Ireland in the pre-
sent state oethings ? Many hon. gentlemen attempted to
answer that question, but, he confessed, that to his mind it
was not ntisfaetorily answered. What were they now to do
with the two or three millions of people who were left
without employment, and who had nothing but starvation
to expect ? He was not cue of those who thought that the
Labour Rite Act of last session was sufficient to meet the
distress, but still he believed that it had been the means of
saving the lives of thousands of the people of that country.
Ho was not one of those who described it as
a failure and worse than a failure. If hon. gentlemen looked
at the bill they would see that portion of it which granted
outdoor relief was as well guarded against abuse as it could
possibly be. It admitted the right to relief to all persons
not able to work either in or out of the workhouse, according
to the direction of the guerdians. His opinion was that the
most prudent coune would be to give room to the able-bodied
in the house, and to provide for the aged or infirm out of
doors. If they stopped short of distributing Iv lief in that man-
ner, they would tail in promoting that general respect for
property, and that moral improvement which he trusted
would be one of the good results of the law, and
would thereby inflict a *crime injury en the
country. He supported this bill because he believed
that it was necessary to relieve Ireland, and because he
thought it was a very lmitimate mode of impaling
a tax on the absentee landlord., who would be thereby
equally burthened with these about them, would have an
additional reason for looking after the interests of their
properties, and would be compelled to give employment,
which was the only sound mode of supporting the people.
These were his reasons for supporting the general principle
of the bill.
Sir D. NORREYS said, that in the present emergency
it was better to give outdoor relief than to enlarge the work-
houses for the purpose of receiving an additional number of
paupers. He would reserve kis opinion with respect to
that portion of the bill which was referred to by the
honourable member for Kilkenay, which related to
the lacrosse in the number of ex-officio guardians.
He thought the time was come when all unnecessary expen-
diture should be put down, and them who kept a great
number of homes were as much to bo blamed ss the pro-
prietors of hounds which consumed a quantity of meal—in
fact, be considered those gentlemen who indulged in cham-
pagne were as bad as those who kept dogs. There was
nothing remarkable in the destitute state of the poor of
Mallow—the misery of Ireland wan general. The hon.
member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall), in referring to
the destitution of Ireland, had gone hack to the
time of Dean Swift: he might however have taken
an earlier period, for since the time of Elizabeth the state of
Ireland had been pretty nearly the same. Now that the
poverty of their countrymen touched their breeches-pockets,
they began to look about for the cause of the wretchedness of
the people, and instead of asking if they were not answerable
for it, they adopted a Jewish custom, and made tho Irish
landlords the @cape-goats for their sins. But had not the
Irish landlords ever been doing thedirty work, and been the
tools of English misgovernment ? The pauperism of Ire-
land had been handed down front one generation to another.
The poor-rates in England were levied upon the occu-
pier of the land, but in Ireland they would follow
the landlord, and he thought the proposed system of rating
was open to great objection.
Mr. VESEY wished to state that be did not think the
charges made by the hon. member for Kilkenny (Mr. J.
O'Connell) were just ; but he rose principally because the
I noble lord at the head of the government had said that he.
extended relief for the able-bodied to Ireland, and not to
Scotland, because the Irish landlords had not exerted them-
selves sufficiently. For every one charge of dereliction of
duty on the part of the landlords, be meld bring forward
Smug instances where they had exerted their best energies
it=gedf the existing misery. The first charge against the
wee, that they had neglected the poor ; the next
eras, that they had not given sufficient employment to the
people ; and the last was, that they had not contributed to the
satent which they ought to have done during the present
MM. The honourable gentleman then referred, in
answer to the flit charge to several unions in
for the purpose of to
that they had
ieid relief to all who were considered proper
obilea of relief. As to the second charge, he had seen the
peatet aalietEi oced for the employment of the people,
meridiem the esums voted for the purposes of drainage,
es compared publie works. In the county of Cork,
buena the 10th et Deesmber and the 10th of January,
8,4010 bad be.. Mild for public works, and 8,5001. for
drably. la Desserl,4,7ool. had been voted for the for-
mer rman% awl WNW fait, latter. In Queen's County,
9,OOKAnd hess voted he pal& works, and 21,0001. for
. Now, with miaow tithe Now, last charge, he knew
that when the distress was Mir MIK about 100,0001. had
been subscribed by lord mwswilleee it the relief of the poor,
and very kir ININS,IIIII b 10111•1111111111111 since. Heil this
had been ask why itch as Amen= an expetEmeat as
the bill before tits be le hinal as the Iris hailisede
Captain LAYAND mil that be lad lea ategialsa, sines
he knew Isles/, that an elliedeat pew-law was one of the
most neonnesy swans for that country. Ha was an advo-
cate for giviq onbdoor relief ; and though he was aware
that many MenNm attended the mese" he believed
that it was einintely necessary in the present cir-
cumsances of the country. (Hear, hear.) What
they should look to was not the intent of some indi-
vidual proprietors, who might be crushed by this measure,
but the great body of the population. What he complained
of was, that at pronst the Irbh labourers could not live by
the sweat aerate brow. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the
noble lord dm simaber for Devon (Lord Courtenay) that a
pose.law was the beat oilman tax for Ireland.
Lori I. KANISW Ed& that =lees the government,
fa molls the swan,did a great deal mars
that Itiimpeserrat measeasminsat to it, they might
*l
who bow dem asthim he if tbs number of ea ons
who wave to be depeadms fos t sua se
a
pea-low was ea peas sato Mlle era abseit all the maim
sad satahlatay by whisk that peowlser amid lie carried into i
sank it maned to ban to be a emehery of the Irish people
le my that by this imams they prepaid se ameliorate
fact enedidem. (Near, hear.j No see y
lay I
the Mani pow-law measure ow say eine
osuila I* swami Is the eassea• mots et enemas tette
asalts="
of earim=tioa he the IMMO
• (=ND r berme their duty
i=k, seloalste, seta hales brew the drennesteneas of
mai Its is to seseampiate shammies to a pee-
' aim* wins etpeaplaw Mist 'What wee the assemea

Ha inis baggy le isqthet goverwaseut ha um& the woes-
wiry orrousenesia tar alkedi the masked Sheilides for
traosceethe tee pals se ' by mem of a steam-
brad. (Mos.) 5s ass entitled I. say that Ms Reath,-
easaes enielimedemerred le be somillesed is tom u mutt,
We= aa doss wields boa luau flied is dust of any
El Mbar wiWisman wire been referred to ia
Issue et esmus (Clisies.) was, bowerer, rin-
deadMilly true, that wbfls sew puma who had property
in bawd bed nobly pertiormad *dr duty, by exerting
themedvei W Mine OS MN d walisriag around Lem,

THE EXPRESS. TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 16, 1847.

there were many others mho Aseived lupe incomes from
that unntry had totally seglasted their duty, both to society
enalbsemelves. It was for 'Ws mason that he rejoiced
at that part of the pram* bill which would compel
Roe pdemcn to contribute from their purses to the relief
• u. (Hear, hear.) Arad if they were influenced
by se ether principle, self-uttered must operate to induce
them to keep down that distress by giving employment I. the
people ; as they would be aware that If they did not, they
, would have to pay for their support out of their own pockets.
' (Hear, hear.) 1 no, too, was due in justice to the other
parts of the empire; for though the people of this country
were ever ready to stand forward to relieve special and or-
went cases of distress, they had no right to be called upon to
do so until they were minified that the property of Ireland
contributed its fair share of the harden. (Hear.) These
were the general reasons upon which he treated the house
I would assent to this measure. He had confined his oleerra.
tiuns to the principle of the measure, believing that the de-
tail, many of which were of very great importance, would
be best discussed in committee, when he hoped they would
receive the deliberation they deserved.
Mr. \V. S. O'BRIEN, while admitting that it was im-
possible to exaggerate the extent of private charity in
England for the relief of Irish distress, contended that it was
the duty of the government to take measures to prevent
the people from starving. With regard to the Irish land-
lords, though he did not stead there as their de-
fender, yet, as some honourable gentlemen had, ea
the authority of individual instances, thought proper
to make a general accusation against the whole body,
he was justified on the authority of the instances quoted by
the Secretary for Ireland in refuting that charge. The re-
solution against out-door relief come to by the Irish party
he had been no party to. Since 1101, when he brought
forward a proposition on the subject, he had been the warm
advocate of a system of outdoor relief for the poor of Ire-
land; but, unless accompanied with other measures for de-
veloping the resources of the country, the attempt to give
claim to the able-bodied labourers to relief would, in many
instances, operate as a confiscation of the property.
The proposition to make half the number of guar-
dians ex-officio members would be very unpopular.
With regard to the question of rating he believed it would
be impossible to frame a system by which the good landlord
would be exempted and the bad landlord punished; but if
they were to act upon the suggestion of his hon. friend the
member for Northamptonshire and narrow the circle to
electoral districts, he feared the very reverse would in many
instances be the case, and that they would be absolutely
giving a bonus to extermination. They bad been told that
in Wexford while the rating in one electoral division wee
Is. 7d., in another it was only 2d., a disparity which justified
him in anticipating such a consequence. If there was no
hope of their going beck to the union system of rating which
was adopted after much consideration when the Irish Poet-
ize was introduced, he thought that the government might
direct a revision to be made, if not of the union., of all the
electoral divisions at least, so that property might be fairly
balanced against pauperism. Let the measure be only jest,
and he was quite prepared to abide the consequenece of it.
Mr. ROEBUCK. (who was occasionally inaudible) repo-
dieted the imputation of the Recorder fir Dublin, that he
(Mr. Roebuck) had been influenced by spite against the
landlords of Ireland, by observing, that he bad taken especial
eare to intimate that he did not know who the landlords of
Ireland were. Indeed, for his own part, he believed that
the real landlords of Ireland were the tax-gatherers and the
mortgagees, against whom he could entertain no such feeling.
But he did undoubtedly say that thou gentleman who fan-
cied themselves the possessor of large estates, had better
be removed from their false position, and cease to
be the nominal proprietors; of the soil than remain as
they now were, a dead weight upon the resources of
the country to the exclusion of the real proprietor,,
who would otherwise use their energies to develops those
resources. Gentlemen opposite said they were agreed upon
all parts of the erasure before the house but out-door relief,
and yet made speeches spinet say poor-law whatever.
Ireland was in this remarkable position—that large masses
of her predation did not subsist by wages, but were totally
dependant upon small holdings of laud. To that circum-
games, end not to any national or religious feeling, was to be
attributed those agrarian disturbances which so long cha-
racterised the country. The conspiracies which had been
concocted in it were for the purpose of maintaining those
small holdings against the domination of their landlords.
They found no protection in the law ; they felt that they
must protect themselves ; and, in the exigency of their posi-
tion were driven, through a wild spirit of revenge, to the
crime of assassination ; having no law, as in England, to
which they could look for food and shelter. The present
calamity leads to investigation ; the people of England learn
what has been going on. and, desirous of putting an end to
so unhappy and unchristian a state of things, offer to intro-
duce into Ireland a law calculated not only to have that
effect, but to induce, on the part of the people. obedience to
the laws, and to all that morality demands, when the Irish
landlord; step in and say, "It shall not be." (Hear, hear.)
He could not conceive a more exalted ;preemie than the
represernatires of a great people, putting aside all' selfish
thoughts, and devoting themselves to the considerition of
some well digested scheme of legislatioa for their fellow sub- ,
juts. Oa the other hand, nothing could be more degrading
and debating, than to rice the rich banded for selfish purposes
against the poor, and bringing all the powers which their
intellect and 'ratios could command to resist that which
should be an imperious call to beneficial exertion. He asked
the house to
Look here upon this picture. sad on this;
The eounterfeit presentment of two brothers.
The gentlemen of England and the gentlemen of Ireland.
(Cheers.) The gentlemen of England demanded for their
Irish fellow subjects what they believed to be their right, and
he defied gentlemen opposite, with all their verbose talk, to
prove what they averted, that what was fit for England
might at the same time bo ruinous for Ireland. (Hear,
here) Whose the right hon. and leer mienber fur
Dublin University 'alerted that, by the proposed
measure, Ireland would be ruined, what did he mean
by Ireland? Did he mean the millions of her people, or
the narrow sect of which the right hon. gentlemen himself
was the favoured disciple. (Hear, hear.) Ireland woo •
capital country for them, the dogs were in admirable order,
and they must run about although the people were starving.
He (Mr. Roebuck), had been accused, on a former evening,
of stating what was not true, but those who had contra-
dicted him, coafirmed whathe said by their inadvertent admis-
sions. They seemed to him, in their twisting, and turnings,
to reiemble the turkey, who, thrusting his head into • bush
imagined that he concealed his whole body. (Laughter.)
What was it they were fighting for ? They all professed
anxiety for a poor.law, and the only point of difference was
out-door relief. The right to that was generally conceded
in England, and would any one assert that it was to be
denied to the people of Ireland. He had never heard objec-
tions to relief measures for Ireland when England TM to pay,
but when the Irish landlordswere calledon to contribute, then
they called out that Ireland was ruined. Their Ireland meant
themselves, and when they talked about her being ruined,
they only meant that they were about to be called upon to
do their duty. He could not conceive how measures like
those proposed by government could be the ruin of any
country. Ireland was just in that situation in which her
advance might be expected, and although the landlords com-
plained of her being ruined, be saw many symptoms of im-
provement upon which he plated considerable value; he
had lately seen in Liverpool large importations of cattle,
of a very different breed from what formerly had been
common in Ireland, a very significant proof, that notwith-
standing all the lachrymose statements they had heard,
material improvements were going on. The fact was that
no country in Europe had, during the last twenty years,
improved more than Ireland, and her present outcry was an
evidence of that improvement. People did not complain in
the depths of their misery, it was only when they saw
glimpses of a brighter future that they became clamorous.
He rejoiced that they should complain,'but not in the way
in which gentlemen opposite complained. The bon. mem-
ber for Limerick complained that Ireland had not a 'lanceted
parliament. He could imagine the hon. member matehleg
through the streets of Dublin in all the consequence of a
' national representative, but if he would legislate for his
sountry, he must also provide for her wants. (Hear, hear.).
Another gentleman had boasted how much the Irish lead.
bids had taxed themselves; he said, " See, wo have pro-
moted 86,0001. twee over, being 2a. in the pound on our
denial" Very true, but where had the money
NM hem? He believed from the English exchequer.
Tess ..mewling to their own statement, it had been presented
them, and paid by England, and that was called Is. in
IM pound ea the Irish rental—a very Irish way of paying.
(seer. bear.) It wee said it wee to be repaid. There was
miefiting leR to a broken-down man but his promise to pay.
The mummy was not broken down, but the 'outbids woos.
Haim were not, why did they not pay? (" Hear, hese
end laughter.) If tney were not ruined, they terf Mb
ME7. (Hear.) If them was an honest co-operations/MeV
Irishmen of different parties, it would be a subject of
gratulation; hut there was none excepting where
money was concerned, and the moment there was an
really Irish in question they were at once dispersed.
unity was that of parsons who were about to attar& inelhir
man's purse. If he could see those gentlemen
it was a eecterian matter that wu in question
see the right hon. gentleman the Recorder of flag
down like the kid withtlitlion, the hon. and learned megabit
for Cork ; if he could Pee them in friendly conference, Win-
mooed by benevolent intsatkas; then he would believe in
the truth and sincerity. of their reconciliation. But he
found that the smouldering bre et bigotry was still allight in
the bosom of the right hoe. gentlemen (Mr. Shaw) silt we
16 years ago, when be stood side beside with the gentlemen
now on the Treasury bench, in perilag a coercion bill. The
bre el bigotry was not dead, end it was leered, when the
hen. member for Kinsale brought forward a mesas
a Trobled rag of bigotry, for they banded tegethereerpt
pass it. Were not these t indorses et what Tea go.
ins on in Ireland, and did they aot show that the rhgooll
of that sentry was only to be hand la the good ems alas
&OM sad SesiMalt nations ? Was ast this sallignerd to be
b.& IS this sided the channel ? Was not the wear et her
=bare ? Andletthem bowers how they emeredthe data
attached kr to Ws es y. In every pint et the
enaaliry it was asked how an aossably like that representing
RP oi* of this oratory could ask for money
hit *Aped=of-Hold& people who had neglected theft I
dirty. The right hes. gentlemen (Mr. Shaw), in casting
about for his Mr. 'tieback's) =eves, said they were
spite and 7 eetadarity-haalleg ; and that in er to
peon this e was striving to ebb& a poor-law Sr
What did this mean but obtabdes good Noah
by goodies& ? He wished ihrtheapprobstion of corn=
wasort he thought he easy gain it by obtaining a
eldageht geor-law Izeiend, obisk would make the land-
/mil onimatind their own Womb, and provide for their
tetia....stmenymen. If hum propeesint every imetketidaes
that the Whim& Of Ireland should to eon-
-741107.10 have a poorlaw, and pay at an equal rate with
those of England, e hand would be held up in
hexer of the peopoeltlaa. Half of that had been
negatived, but the great principle had been ad-
mitted, and it would and fa the full and complete

taxation of the Irish landlords, both for the nationnl exche-
quer and for the poor. It was because he felt that it was an
act of justice to Ireland and to England too, who had so long
fostered the domination of the Irish landlords (for it was
from England, who had so long done the wrong, that the
right would come), and that Ireland would reap the full
benefit of this poor-law, that :he supported it. The time
would come when he would be able to criticise that great
mass of legislation, which was called the Irian poor-law, and
to show how inadequate it was at prount ; but as it was full
of hope fur the future, he should support the bill.
Sir W. VERNER thought that it was unjust, when
the land was borne down almost to confiscation, that this tax
should be laid upon it, when tradesmen and others in a like
situation were exempted from it. In order to make the
measure fair and just, there should be no exception. Ile
thought it a bad argument to say that this bill should be
supported because no better was proposed, and he also
thought that there should be an opinion expressed upon it
from all sides of th' house.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL deprecated the unlimited and
indiscriminate abuse which some hors. gentlemen in that
house lavished upon the Irish landlords. He considered
that the attack made by the hon. and learned member for
Bath upon the right hon. Recorder fur Dublin was most un-
just. Ile (Mr. M. J. O'Connell) regarded the conduct of
that right hon. and learned gentleman upon all Irish ques-
tions throughout the present session so most patriotic, and
doers ing of all praise. As to the out-door relief clause of
the bill, a' (Mr. O'Connell) was prepared, upon the gravest
consideration of the subject, to support it. It was his in-
tention, when they came to the 10th clause, to support union
rating. Hon. gentlemen oprsite seamed to direct all their
declamation against the second cl luse of the bill; but he
thought that by far the most perilous clause was the first,
and that its provisions should be made more limited.
He regretted the determination to which what war celled
the Insh party had come against out-door relief. The hon.
member for Bath had spoken of lamentable exhibitions ; he
(Mr. M. J. O'Connell) thought that the most lamentable
exhibitim of the session had been the attempts made by the
hon. and learned member to rake up the old sectarian and
political animosities that had heretofore divided the Irish
representatives among themselves, and to throw the apple of
discord anionoliem;at a moment when they were so disposed
to forget all th.ii ancient differences, and to work
together for the practical good of Ireland. (Hear.hear.)
Mr. CALLAGHAN said he knew no reason why the
people of Ireland should not be entitled to the same protec-
tion and relief from the proprietors of the soil as the poor
of England enjoyed, and with this view he was willing to
accede to the proposition of' the noble lord at the head of the
government for granting out-door relief, but he could not
sonde to the alteration in the constitution
.of the boards of
guardians, by the introduction of so many ex-officio mem-
bers, which was proposed.
Sir A. BROOKE observed, that while he was willing to
recognise the right of the poor man to look to property for
his maintenance and support in times of distress, he
could not assent to the proposition of the noble lord
opposite (Lord J. Russell). The principle of out-door
relief had • demoralising tendency, and those who were
now employed on public works in Ireland would expect to
be maintained under th., provisions of this measure without
making any adequate return by the application of their
labour to productive purposes. Neither did he see that the
bill contained any security that the poor should derive a
maintenance from the property is the district where distress
prevailed. He did not think it would either be
just or fair to saddle neighbourhoods with the dieted.'
which existed elsewhere. He could not but express his dis-
approbation of almost every word that had fallen from the
hon. member for Bath. His continued attacks on the Irish
landlords were un-English in the extreme ; for it had always
been held the characteristic of an Englishman not to strike a
man when he was down. (Hear, hear.) The landlords
generally had been charged with contributing little to the
relief of the distress ; but he knew numbers who had sub-
scribed most liberally, and the charge ought, therefore, not
to be made in this general way.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had stated, in the course of
his speech on Friday evening, that, when he asked the
deputation who waited caponm what coarse they would
suggest, he had not heard any alternative proposed,
except the private charity which prevailed in Ireland and in
this country. He had since received a letter from Lord
Monteagle, reminding him that he had omitted to state that
one of the deputation referred to the willingness of the
landed gentry in Ireland to bear any charge which might be
put on their property for indoor relief and the extension
of workhouses fur that purpose. (Hear, hear.) That
suggestion had not made much impression upon
his mind ; but had he recollected it at the time
ho spoke (Friday), he should certainly have entered
into some argument to show that the proposition was not a
practicable one. (Hear.) But Lord Monteagls was per-
fectly correct as to this !suggestion having been made.
The house then went Into committee pro forms, and im-
mediately afterwards resumed, the committee being
appointed, to sit again on Friday.

AGRICULTURAL TENANT RIGHT BILL.
Mr. P USEY said he was very anxious that this bill should
pass before Easter, and, if them was no objection, he would
fix the committee for Friday.
Mr. C. BERKELEY said be had every objection; be
thought the bill a very bad one, and he hopd that as distant
a day as possible would be fixed for the committee.
Lord G. BENTINCK said the greatest alarm existed on
the eunject of this bill, and he hoped some little mere time
would be allowed before going into committee. One clause
in the bill would render it null and void, as either landlord
or te• ant might, if they chose, pass it by altogether.
Mr. E. DENISON said the bill had parsed through s s. lect
committee, and it contained no provisions calcalated to excite
any such alarm as bad been spoken of by the noble lord.
After a few words from Mr. Ackland, Mr. Stafford
O'Brien, and Sir J. Y. Buller,
Mr. PUSEY Axed the committee fit. :d id week,
the understanding that another day would then be filed.
DRAINAGE OP LANDS. . . .

The Earl of ililaiiiVatiinecTeio bring in a bill
for facilitating the drainage of lam'a in Great Britain: a bill
similar to one he had introduced in a previous session.
PORTLAND HARBOUR COMMITTEE.

On the motion of Mr.theitdic;Crini—inembers I
were appointed • select committee on Portland Harbour of
Refuge and Breakwater Bill :—Mr. Ward, Admiral Dundas,
Captain Berkeley, Mr. Dinka', Viscount Morpeth, Mr.
Bernal, Mr. Christie, Sir James Graham, Mr. Parker, Mr.
Seyiner.—The house adjourned at one o'clock