The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE. OF LORDS.—TUESDAT, MAY la.
Vie Loan CrturrentAna tank his seat at 6 o'aleisk.
PETITIONS PItECENTE
CRYoTti. rAL ter.—By the Hal of GALLOWAY, Era
Whitchurch, against the opening of the Cry-tal r.:aes as
Sundays.
Ay N of) rii.—By the Earl of GALLOWAY, from seve-
ral places, against continuing the grant to Mayn-mh.
Otriatticcuts Or Tut Jews.—By the Earl er GALLO-
WAY, Sous a place not heard, against thv ci5:521.9110t
the Jews to parliament.
5H6111141. Couars.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from a
place in Scotland, in fsvour of an ezteu,:cn cr the juris-
dictioa of sheriff.'

courts.
CONFERENCE.
A meetsge was delivered from the House :f Commons,
requesting • conference on the subject of the Tent mouth
election. Their lordships consented to an :sr.,: 'date con-
ference, which accordingly took place.
TRANSPORTATION OF CONVICTS.
Furl GILEY,in rising to move • resolution.: which he had
gives notice on this subject, said that he wu not actuated by
Key spirit of hostility to the present government. The dif-
ficult subject of peconil-ry punishments couiil lay • no cos-
anion with party politics. It had occupied his ittenties
in and oat of office for more than 20 years; and wishing
generally to support the present government, he hoped he
should not be charged with inconsistency in contending
with reference to the present subject that they had fallout
into an error which was calculated to lead to a serious pub.
lic evil. Ile should not have troubled their :ortliiip. with
the motion he was about to submit, had it cot been for as
intimation from his noble friend (tee Duke of Ns weutle)
that it was not the intention of the government to bring for-
ward any measure on this subject, at the same time. how-
ever, he expressed an opinion that a discus :At on this ma
snentous question was highly desirable. Ile had thereto,*
ventured to undertake the task, and should submit a motions
the object of which would be to enable their lordship W
pronounce a judgment on oue particular part of the q NO.
tion which urgently required immediate ectitideratiens
The object of his motion was not to call on them to express
an opinion in favour of that system of secondary punish-
ments which was adopted by the government with which be
was connected. He did not ask them tc say that trate*
partition should be continued, but to address her Msjestg
for the purpose of praying that she would be pleased in
issue her comments that a vital change in cur system et
criminal jurisprudence and our punt policy, as establidsed
for two centuries, should not be made until their lordships
and the other house of parliament had been Trade acquainted
with the measures proposed to be adopted, and should
have borl an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion apes
them. In the speech by which the present Parliament wee
opened, her Majesty was advised by the noble earl opposite
to call the attention of parliament to the subject of
puniahments, and she stated that she should rejoicelsotlia
at possible to devise means by which transportation to Van
Diemen's Land might be, at no distant period, altogether
disoontieued. In conformity with that speech the late
Secretary of State for the Colonies en the 14th
of December last addressed • despat:h to the
()peeper of Van Diemen's Land, informing him
of the intention of the government to discontinue
transportation to Van Diemen's Land ; but he added that
it was not in his power to fix a date for effecting that dis-
continuance, as before it took place it would be necessary
that some alteration should be made in the law, and parlia-
ment must consider what arrangement must he substituted.
A change of government subsequently took piece, and it
was then announced that the government dil not concur in
the opinion of their predecessors, but had come to a deter-
mination that transportation to Van Diemen's Land
should forthwith be discontinued, and that Lot another
convict ship should be despatched to that cdony ;
and it was even stated that Western Australia
would not long be considered a+ • convict settlement.
He was not present on that occasion ; and he ex-
pected when he came to London that the government would
have brought forward some measure on the subject, but
having waited a considerable time, about ten days ago he
put a question to the noble duke on the subject, and was
informed that precisely the difficulty whiclo he had antici-
pated bad arisen; and that upwards of one thousand con-
victs were already in penal establishments, who, under
former arrangements, ought to have been centered to a
colons, but who were still kept in custody. And it was
further stated that it still remained under the considers.
lion of the government what ought to be dose with those
convicts. It appeared to him that • c osaiderable mistake
had been made . the government had decided that trans-
portation forthwith should be discontinued to Van Diemen's
Land, and shortly to Western Australia, but they seemed
to have overlooked the fact that they could not make •
pause, acid that a constant seri am of couvictiocs was taking
!dace at the sessions and assizes. (Hear, bear.) Before
they discontinued one mode of disposing of those ;tenons
they ought to have settled upon another. And it
was • little remarkable that not three months after
they were told that transportation to Van Diemen's Lead
was to be discontinued, they were told that the govern-
seat bed not yet determined as to what was to be
dose with the convicts thus thrown en their hands.
This difficulty he wee afraid was likely to increase.
It was quite clear, and indeed notorious that men dis-
charged, after suffering punishment in this country,
were rarely able to return to decent society. Vpoa the
other baud, in the colony, many criminals had
respectable members of society. So awash was this the ease
that he was able to inform their lordship two yeses ago
that, according to the best information, there was at that
period not km than 48,000 men living at large in the Pio-
Peas who lied at use time or another been convicts. Of these
fw dat gasalloatpart were maintaining themselves honestly.
That altamsat had savor been doubted in all the various
dinenedeMit erhielli had taken plies upon the subject Surely
whether the hawse Weed to the welfare of individuals or
censibuod tbe ttast lepartaaos of again bringing back into
satisfy dime lobe haw hese drives from it by their crimes,
it woo saaally *prima that this large number of men,
who, if Hwy had rosalasd at home,would, in all probability,
have bees skiff ill, should be in a situation to re-
tries their lost gesitien. They should remember
hew great were the evils which resulted from
the presence of His dams of persons, where they
mold not be watched sr gestrelled. Their lordships knew
that is France this elnes had beta the eagle ct much civil
discord. (Hear, hoar.) la a country neighbourhood no-
thing was found to have as evil as effect as • returned
convict. Such a man was the Pose of mischief, setting on
the young to crime, and making them look upon punish.

opinion was, that transportation cease. But when he was
till that the inhnhitants of Van Diemen's Land and West-
ern Australia would rebel, and that the example of the
American colonies would be followed, he could hardly for-
bear from 'milieu( at the perfectly ludicrous contrast be-
tween the two co,es. What similarity was there
between the strong; feeling which had led to the ejection of
tea into Boston harbour, and the feeling which did not
prevent the scenes which took place at the arrival of the
convict ships Why in a recent piper there was a most
graphic monist of the tuntult which such an event occa-
sioned. Even the assistance of the military had to be in-
voked, to restrain the crowds of rich and poor who stum-
bled, not to drive away the cmcicts from their shores, but
to secure their PtitiM. (Rao, Whgt a arngra;;
between the persons who bad indulged in this foolish talk
in the colonies, and the !treat men of the American reeo-
. .

ltvion—men not lees dirtioguished for their moderation
than their firmness; men whose moderation was such,
th it had there been the smallest infusion of poli•ical
wisdom in the councils of this country, the calamitous
struggle, and the secession of those colonies, would never
have taken place. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
amendment which be understood the noble earl (Lord Chi-
chester) intended to propose. he trusted that it would not be
pressed. If he wished to take the tense of the house upon
it he hoped the noble earl would bringit on as a substan-
tive motion, because it was entirelybeside the ques
tion he (Lord Grey) wished to place before the house.
If, however, the noble • arl did press his amendment, he
(Lord Grey) trusted the bout would deal with it as merely
an indirect way of evading a question which the government
did not feel prepared to meet. Was it right, three months
after the ships bad been chartered which should have taken
convicts out, they should be diecussing whit to do with
them? Surely the course the government had taken was
an erroneous one; but it was still not too late for parliament
to interfere, and he asked them therefore to agree to the
resolution of the term. of which he had given notice, vis.:—
" That an humble address be preseated to her Majesty,
praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give
directions that the arranaements with respect to the punish-
ment of erimioals sentenced to transportation, which were
in force in the year 185'2, may not be changed in such a
manner as to prevent the ultimate removal of such offen-
ders from this country until a full account of any contem-
plated alteration in the above arrangements shall have
been laid before parliament, and till parliament shall have
had an opportunity of considering the measures it may be
intended to adopt previously to their being carried into
execution."
The Earl of ABERDEEN said it would perhaps be con-
venient for him to state thus early in the debate the views
of her Majesty's government upon the subject ; and he did
so the more readily, becalm, notwithstanding the appeal of
the noble earl, be could not help entertaining $OlllO hope
that be (Lord Grey) would not himself be disposed to press
his motion upon the house In the first place, this motion
was one of a very unusual character. It was an inter-
vention of a description rarely exercised towards
the legitimate use of the prerogative of the crown,
and of the executive government. (Hear.) The noble
earl thought the government had done something which
required the sanction of parliament to authorise. They had
done no such thing. (Hear, hear.) Had they been disposed
to take any step requiring the sanction of parliament they
should most readily have reeuested the house to authorise
or refuse their assent to such a proceeding. Bat they had
done nothing of the kind. All they had done was that
which, right or wrong, wise °entente' it was perfectly com-
petent for them in the exercise of the discretion of the exe-
cutive government. (Hear, hear.) lie agreed with the
noble earl that this subject had always been treated as not
belonging to any party considerations. (Cheers.) The sub-
ject was one which interested our social condition so nearly,
and was so important to the welfare and happiness of such
vast numbers of our fellow-citiz ms, that it had been very
properly put aside from all considerations of party; and he
(Lord Aberdeen) had certainly no reason to imagine that
the noble earl at all wished to Rise it that character. (Hear,
hear.) He was ready to admit that the noble earl and his
colleagues had made great improvements in the treatment of
convicts and in their discipline both at home and abroad. At
the came tii:e he must be permitted to observe that the dif-
ficulties under which they were labouring at that moment
had been mainly created, however unintentionally, by the
noble earl himself. (Hear, hear.) The practical question
was,after all, notwithstanding all that the noble earl had
said, could transportation be continued? and ho would
show that the noble earl had made that impossible. And
For this reason—when, in 1816. Mr. Gladstone was Secre-
tary for the Colonies, he found the system introduced by
the noble earl opposite bad led, however well devised (for
he was not inclined to find fault with that system) had
led to such abuses, and that the country had arrived at such
• state of horror and abomination that he (Mr. Gladstone)
found himself under the necessity of suspending all trans-
portation for two years. Shortly after that declaration a
'lunge of government took place, and the noble earl suc-
ceeded bins. The noble earl, on the 6th of February, 1817,
wrote to Sir W. Denison, in Van Diemen's Land, to this
effect :—" I have to inform you that it is not the intention
of her Majesty's government that transportation to Van
Diemen's Land shall be resumed at the expiration of the
two years for which it has been already decided that it shall
be discontinued."
Earl GREY—Read the former part.
The Earl of ABERDEEN was quite ready to admit that
the noble earl intended something different from what be
mild. (Earl Grey (loudly)—" Hear, hear.")
Well, if the
noble earl would bear, he would state what was about to
say. (A laugh.) Whatever intrepretation the noble
earl might put upon this letter now, Sir W. Denison
understood it in its plain meaning, and he announced
it to his legislative council, as an intimation that no more
convicts were to be tot to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear,
bear.) It had thus become a question of good faith, be-
cause the inhabitants had attached that meaning to the de-
claration of their own governor, founded upon the despatch
of the noble earl. (Hear, hear.) Now, he (Lord Aber-
deen) knew very well that what the:noble earl meant wee
that transportation should not be resumed in the same
manner as had been the practice before. But neither the
governor to whom he wrote, nor the colonists to whom Sir
W. Denison explained it, understood it so. They undoubt-
edly received a fixed impression that the late government
intended to abolish transportation to Van Dieneen'eLesed.
(Hear, hear.) Well, but with that canted= em
their part, it would be difficult to diabase them
of their belief, which had been confirmed to them
over and over again by the declarations, the em-
phatic declarations, of their legislative council. (Hear.)
The noble earl in one instance had written that the go-
vernment of this country had en right to send convicts to
any coloni against the consent of the inhabitants.

tying the advantages derived from the system of tour
portation in comparison with other modes of esamdlary
punishment, for he seemed to think that transpulMfma
was for those who were dtterly irreclaimable, an t the
reformatory influilice was only to be applied through a dif-
ferent system. Ile, however, was of opinion that there
was more chance of amendment from transportation than
from a reformatory system in this country, followed up, as
it unit be, by a recurreece to former habits and associates.
Aad so far from wishing to restrict transportation solely to
thoee with regard to whom hut little hope was to be en-
tertained, still less with regard to the must aggravated
oases, he thought there was a class of persons who, after a
reformatory system in this country, might obtain signal be-
- .
transportation to the colonies, and who
MM" ••
might be•,... an advantage to the community to whom
they were sent. (Hear, hear.) Transportation, there-
. . _ " • • valuable

fore, he thought, might be "availabli as a
sequence to a reformatory process. He thought, however,
that the time bad arrived when we must look to the aboli-
tion of transportation to Van Diemen's Land. The feeling
which existed in that colony against receiving convicts
might be partly produced by the encouragement given
in this country to the notion that a colony which received
coevicts was* degraded colony. He thought that to be a
mistake—(hear, hear)—but the idea weep strongly im-
pressed on the people of Van Diemen's Leak *ea he did
not say we had not the right or the power to mod esaviets
there, but he thought it would not be good paw re sea-
tinge to do so. (Hear, hear.) They had given Via Die-
men's Land an independent government of he own, sad
from that time they must take the legislative body to be
the representatives of the people, and the organ for ex-
pounding the feelings and wishes of the colonists. (Hear,
bear.) And where there was a strong feeling pervading
the whole of a colony, especially on such a subject es the
admission of convicts, it was nowise to run the risk of re-
peering in Van Diemen's Land scenes such as they had
witnessed in other colonies. (Hear, hear.) The field fur
transportation would consequently be limited to an extent
which would be found inconvenient, and it would
materially diminish a large portion of the reform&
eery principle. Thinking it necessary to make an immediate
I preparation for meetiog that emergency, he did net the lees
agree with the motion in regretting the precipitate manner
is which the government had given effect to an intentios
which he thought might safely have been carried out mare
gradually, and which he and his late colleagues fully ese
tuetsined, but the execution of which they were willing to
postpone until they made the necessary amusements.
Having alluded to the changes which had boss
made, he must express his regret that the govern.
smut had now made another sudden change, leading
She public mind, perhaps, to believe that there would be •
greater change than was contemplated. ;He would not
dwell on the individual injustice that would be done to
maviets, for he wee sure that the government would do all
*eye-could to limit and prevent it. But when the present
system wee introduced he pointed out to the noble earl
that, as to deportation, he was only postponing the evil day,
and that the pressure would come as soon as the con-
victs were entitled to be sent out of the country. From an
expression which had dropped from the noble earl at tho
head of the government, he did not think there was much
difference between his views and those of the late govern-
ment mato limiting the amount of transportation and the
offences for which it should be inflicted. He thought it
desirable that there should be some locality, not tar from
this country, in which there should be a prison (or persons
of whom there was no hope of amendment, and who should
net, therefore, contaminate a colony. (Hear, hear.) He
did net mean that they should always be kept
within the walla of a prison, but within a nar-
row space, subject to illance, even for life.
That might be a substitute for transportation, and he
thought he inferred from what had fallen from the noble earl
that he did not differ widely from those views. (" Hear,
hear," from the Earl of Aberdeen.) In conclusion, he
must say that he saw with regret that the government had
taken a course likely to lead to embarrassment, having the
appearance of yielding to popular feeling in Van Diemen's
Land against transportation there, and that they had
adopted the discontinuance of the present system before
they had matured the plan they had intended to propose as to
secondary punishment. He complained, moreover, of their
taking a final and ultimate step without first consulting
parliament on the subject. Entertaining those views he
should support the resolution of the noble earl on the cross
benches. (Hear.)
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that the noble sal (the
Earl of Derby) had expressed his intention of voting with
the noble earl (Earl Grey) who had brought forward this
motion, principally because of the approbation which he had
expressed in reference to the course which the late govern-
sent intended to pursue. At the lame time, the noble earl
(the Earl of Derby) abstained from making any statement
se to what those intentions were. He (the Duke of New-
eastla) could assure the noble earl that however the noble
lard who made the motion might approve of that coarse, he
was only able to judge of it from what was contained la the
speech from the throne, and in a despatch of the right lion.
gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) who preceded him in office.
The noble earl (Earl Grey) had, in his speech, charged the
government with having violated the spirit if not tiro letter
of various acts of parliament. Now he (the Duke of New-
castle) utterly denied that the government had done
this. It had acted upon the power which the
crown had invariably exercised, upon the advice of minis-
ters, to decide to which colonies transportation should pre-
med, and where and in what degree it should be stopped.
are was no set of parliament stating to what colonies
Isamportation should take place. The matter had always
bws regulated by orders in council, and the noble earl
meet know that en more than one occasion an order in
council had been made, repealed, restored, and repealed
again merely upon the advice of ministers. Again, what
had been the practice of late years with regard to transport-
ation ? Latterly, until within a short time, prisoners tran-
sported for seven years had never been transported at all,but
merely sent to the hulks. More than that, ministers had
not only taken upon themselves never to carry the sentence
of transportation into effect, but, even since the late altera-
tion., prisoners sentenced to seven years' transportation
were detained for two years and a half in solitary confine-
ment and upon public works before being sent out of the
country. What was the effect of these alterations by the
government of which the noble earl was • member ? Under
it a man sentenced to transportation for seven years was
virtually transported for life. The noble earl (Earl Grey)
looked amazed at this, but it was the case, for under these
regulations a man was transported and left without the
means of returning. As to the real practical effect of the gold
diggings upon the transport, the return for the first
nine months of the year 1852 showed that no less
than 1,413 ticket-of-leave men had absconded from their

Land, but his ardent hope that transportation
itself might he brought to a speedy end.
The Doke of NEWCASTLE oomplaiaed that the noble
and learned lord was misrepresentiug him. He had n
expressed any hops on the subject ; bat he had candidly !
stated that her Majesty's government had determined to
give up transportation to Van Disman's Land, though they
would cantinas it to Western Australia. Ile had confessed,
however, that he could not hold out any hope—that was the
way the word wee used—that criminals could be sent to
that colony to any great extent or for any very long time.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL appealed to their lordships' reeollec-
tioa as to how far he had correctly given the purport of the
noble duke'i intimation. He (Lard Campbell) could not
but feel the greatest alarm at the prospect of criminals
being turned loose upon the community, which must be the
result of theatres*, proposed unless the government were
prepared to imprison persons for 10, 15, or 20 years, or even
for life. He believed that no secondary punishment had
ever been devised so good as transportation; and though
he had incurred no small degree of obloquy for having stood
up first, he should cordially support the motion of his noble
friend (Earl Grey).
The LOUD CHANCELLOR was afraid that the noble
and learned lord had imparted a somewhat different tone
to a discussion which had previously been characterised by
dimness, dispassionateness, and the absence of anparty
feelings. The simple case was this. There had been •
positive and distinct engagement on the part of the govern-
ment that no more convicts should be sent out to Van Die-
man's Land; and the proposal was that they should ask her
Majesty to give directions to her servants to violate
that engagement. (Cheers.) It was a mistake to suppose
that the government proposal was at all contrary to law, as
the noble and learned lord seemed to intimate. Not to
speak of the Hulks Act, there had been en act of parliament
passed ten or twelve years ago, by which it was made lawful
to commute sentences of transportation to certain periods of
' imprisonment specified ; and by a subsequent act the Secre-
tary of State was empowered to regulate those periods at
his own discretion. (Hear, hear.) lie (the Lord Chancel-
lor) would not yield to the noble and learned lord in his
admiration of transportatioi, were it not that cir-
cumstances had occurred at the antipodes which ren-
dered it impossible. Transportation, in fact, satis-
fied the two great criteria of a good punishment—
it combined the maximum of terror with the minimum
of endurance. (Hear, hear.) The government had still
Western Australia, and they must endeavour to make the
most of it. At present the total number of transports was
about 2,000; whereas Western Australia had only capabi-
lities for receiving 300, or 400, or 500. It was, therefore,
necessary to select for transportation only those crimes
which were of the gravest character. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CHICHESTER explained that though his
amendment had been described as not opposing the motion,
he had intended to express his dissent from the proposition
of the noble earl.

The Duke of ARGYLL, in reference to the argument
of Earl Grey that a colony became fitted to be a penal
colony just in proportion as its population increased, oh-
served that the last census of Van Diemen's Land showed a
population of 31,000, consisting of 18,000 free men and
13,000 convicts. But the gold discoveries of 1831 had re-
duced the free population to 9,000. Would the noble earl
say that this colony was still in a condition to receive more
convicts ? (Rear.)

Earl GREY, in reply, corrected his former statement
respecting Mr. Wentworth. That gentleman had con-
tinued to advocate the continuance of the convict system
until the gold discoveries. The noble lord at the head of
the government had confined himself very much to an ad
hominessargument that he (Earl Grey) had created the
difficulty, and he read a portion of his despatch in support
of that assertion. If he had read the whole of it, it would
have been seen that he stated that government looked upon
it as an experiment. Then it was new to him that any
government could pledge parliament for all time to come.
It had been said that the object of his motion was to con-
tinue transportation to Van Diemen's Land. He said dis-
tinctly that he would assume, for the purpose of argument,
that it was; but, after the • opinion of two
governments that it should be discontinued, that
had quite altered the case. Then the noble
earl asked what was the object of his address. He (Earl
Grey) quite admitted that transportation to Van Diemen's
Land must cease: but he (Earl Grey) did not say that it
was to cease to-day or to-morrow. The noble earl said they
had not abolished transportation. Well, he would not
quarrel about a word ; but they had stopped the sending of
convicts abroad. If this address were carried, government
would have to send those convicts who were entitled to
tickets of leave either to Van Diemen's Land or to Westetn

Australia. What he objected to was, that whereas hitherto
the removal of convicts from this country to a distant
colony had been considered by parliament as • necessary
part of the sentence of transportation, her Majesty's go-
vernment had taken upon themselves, by their own sole au-
thority, without consulting parliament, to make an altera-
tion, the practical effect of which was that a large propor-
tion of these convicts would have to be discharged at home.
He agreed that the hulk acts enabled them to keep the con-
victs at home for a time ; but he said that the spirit of
those acts required that at some stage or other those cen-
victs should be removed. They acted on that opinion in
1846, and he said they ought to do the same thing now.
Their lordships then divided.
For the motion
Against it 64-17
The amendment was then agreed to.
Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUESDAY, MAT 10.
The Srlatna took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords Amendments to the following bills were con-
sidered and agreed to:—Brighton, Hove, and Preston
Waterworks; Cambridge University and Town Water-
works; Cardiff Waterworks; Liverpool Borough Court;
Sheffield Waterworks; Stockport Improvement; Wake-
field Soke Mills ; Bills.
Tutxu READING.—Severn Navigation Bill.
The following bills were considered and ordered to be
read a third time:—Darenth Valley Railway; Edinburgh
and Glasgow Railway; Midland Railway (Leicester and
Hitchin) ; Monkland Railways; Norwich and Spalding
Railway ; Portadown and Dnoganaon Railway ; Thames
Haven Dock and Railway; York. Drainage and Sanitary
Improvement and Fuss Navigation; Bills.
SUOMI) RlADlNO.—Whittlebury Forest Bill.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PLYMOUTH ELECTION COMMITTEE.

Eitel Ot— --Not bring originally a convict colony.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—Very well ; but surely the 4
noble earl ought to nay some respect to the legislatures of
these colonies. Was it only against the church of England 1
that the noble earl supported the declarations of the Legia- I
lative Assemblies—was it only the Canada' that were to be '
supported in the wishes that they expressed, and was I
a colony to protest against a set of convicts being
forced upon them, and were they not to be listened to or
to receive any attention from their lordships ? The noble
earl ought to be consistent, and to give due weight to the
voice of those assemblies which he had helped to constitute
in these colonies. The noble earl had throughout treated
the whole of this subject as if government had taken a de-
cision to abolish transportation. Now, they had not only
done no such thing, but they were anxious to preserve
transportation. Undoubtedly the field in which it could
be exercised was diminished ; and as he had already said,
whether inadvertently or not, that difficulty had been
mainly created by the noble earl himself. (Hear, bear.)
But there were settlements that still remained,
and he thought that by good administrations at
home the number of convicts transported might be
se diminished as possibly to find the means of accommoda-
tion in those restricted territories to which he had alluded.
He did not think it necessary to say more, except to
protest against the notion which the noble earl through-
out his speech had endeavoured to convey, that they
had come to a decision to abolish transportation be-
cause they found it impossible to send convicts to Van
Diemen's Land, for that was the whole amount of his
charge.
The Earl of CHICHESTER then rose to move the
amendment of which he had given notice, " That whilst in
the opinion of this house it is expedieat to retain the
punishment of transportation for some of the g
fences against the law, it has become necessary to restrict
such transportation to a few only of the colonies, and to
places which, from their limited extent or population, are
at present incapable, without prejudice to their own social
condition, of affording employment to any considerable
number of discharged convicts. That it has therefore be-
come the duty. of parliament to adopt immediate measures
for providing Increased means of secondary punishment in
this country. That such secondary punishment ought to
be, both in kind and duration, sufficiently penal to exercise
as deterring an influence as the punishment of transports.
lion, and at the same time of so reformatory a character as
to afford a reasonable hope that the eonvicts who wades°
it will, on their discharge, bee me useful members of so-
ciety. and qualified to obtain emoloyment either in this
country or in the colonies." De objected to the mo-
tion, because it implied a continuance of transportation
to a greater extent than he believed to be desirable,
or, in the present circumstances of the colony,
to be either politic or just. lie concurred in
much that was said by the noble earl, and he also
agreed with the noble earl who had just sat down, that, for
the graver offences, transportation ought to be continued.
Ile agreed also in what had been said with regard to the

meta so liothing. ... should arras forgotten, tc-Ci, that in a
country like this, where labour is set really scarce, the dill-
nifty which a man who had committed a crime expenses's&
is obtainiag employment, threw him bark into iiishoosot
courses. As faro his information went, he was not aware'
of any sufficient reason far abandoning the practice of re-
moving convicts to Van Diemen's Land ; but, for the sake sr
argument, be would concede that it must be abandooid.
Granting that this was so. what was the proper course ? Ha
found no fault with the dispatch written by the Ire Cols-
nisi Secretary, who said he thought that transportation to
Van Diemen's Land ought to step, but that rovernment
could not fix the precise date of the change. (Hear, hear.)
The ;late government proposed to submit certain
in the law, which they thought neemsary in order to
this alteration in the practice, sad at the same 11., to
make certain arrangements by which they thought those
alterations might be accomplished without injury. (Hey,'
hear.) That was a perfectly legitimate course, and Ind it
been adhered to by the present government, it
would have been perfectly practicable, by arrangements
which might have been made, and changes lathe law which
might have been proposed—not certainly without consider-
able esposse—to put an end, at no distant period, to trans-
portation to Van Diemen's Land, and at the same time to
maintain that punishment to an extent sufficient to answer
the most important purposes. (Hear, hear, hear.)
No ulna held higher than himself the doctrine, that if we
would retain our vast colonial empire, and keep its different
parts knit together by mutual affection and loyalty to the
crown, it was necewry that the imperial government and
parliament should deal with justice—any, with indulgence
sad consideration—towards the colonies. But be utterly
denied that government or parliament was bound to yield
to every demand of the colonists, whether just or not, end
to listen to every clamour, reasonable or unreasonable.
Important as he thought it that we should retain oar mo
baits, be said deliberately that it would be far bettor to
part with them at once than to retain them on those terms,
by which we were to have the onerous duty of defied*,
and protecting them, but to exercise no substantial autho-
rity. (Hear, hear.) Ile hoped that an argument so dors-
gatory to the dignity of parliament and to the crown WOW
not be used in that honor. The right rule to nit
upon was this: the legislature must litftn to the do-
mes of the colonists; they must bear their prayers
with every disposition to accede to them and what-
ever was consistent with the common good of all
we were bound to grant ; while those demands which were
not based on justice, and were incensiatcht pith the general
welfare of the whole empire, we were brand to oppose.
The true test of statesmenship, that which made the differ-
ence between a statesman and a mere shlilow
was to be able to discriminate between ono case and the
other, to know when justice required concession, and when
their duty to the crown and the enardre prescribed firm
new. Let them apply that rule .to Van Diemes's Land.
How far was the demand {just, how far was It supported,
not by poplar clamour, but by reason, that the
_y should
not merely - an end totrnnspottarion to Vas 'Miners

- .
employments daring that period to go to the gold fields;
of these 738 only were apprehended and brought back. In
a despatch, dated about the month of February last, he
had explained the views of the home government to the
seeernor of Van Diemen's Land, and informed him of
ihe intention of her Majesty's government to put a stop to
then system of transportation. He (the Duke of New.
'Mae) had seen nothing to induce him to change his
upfaion since the writing of that dispatch, on the contrary,
be was sure that to ease the colony from its then
inked state was a thing of primary importance. With re-
gard to the committee presided over by the noble and
Gamed lord near him (Lord Brougham) he could not find
In the report of that committee, that absolute ap-
proval of transportation to which the noble earl (Earl
(trey) bad referred. The committee had come to the
conclusion that imprisonment in this country was not out-
latent as a secondary
.punishment ; but since their report
was made, prison discipline had been greatly improved, end
would be still more so. The report recommended that new
Methods should be found of dealing with juvenile offenders,
also that the education of the poorer classes should be im-
=veld. Both those objects had been attended to ; and he
the effortathat had been made would go on increasing.
The noble earl (Grey) had stated, on a former occasion
that 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 would be let loose on this country
before the end of the present year. But supposing the trans-
portation to the Australian colonies abandoned altogether,
the whole number would not amount to more than 2,000
far the year.
Earl GREY—Do you include those sent to the Ano,
belies colonies from Gibraltar and Bermuda, or (sly ilea
sent from Great Britain and Ireland ?
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said his statement only in-
cluded those sent from Great Britain and Ireland. The
average number sent out for the last five peen to Australia
from Great Britain and Ireland was 1,945; if those sent
from Bermuda and Gibraltar were included, the average
was only 100 from each place. The annual number of
vacancies was 400 in Bermuda, and 200 in Gibraltar.
Therefore, were transportation to the whole of the Aus-
tralian colonies to cease at once, the total increase of the
criminal population poured upon this country, in addition
to those annually poured upon us by the liberation of pri-
soners at the expiration of their sentences, would be 1,945
in respect of those convicts now sent from Great Britain
and Ireland, and 200 from Bermuda and Gibraltar. In 1846,
when this inquiry was made, all the convicts sentenced to
seven years' transportation wore sent to the hulks,
a system which it was universally admitted bad demo-
ralised the convicts instead of reforming them. Yet the
whole of these convicts, so demoralised, were thrown upon
the free population of this country ; not one of them was ever
transported. There was no pretence that we had suffered
from this; but we were now dreading the effect of a far
lesser number being thrown upon the population, though
reformed by the improved system of prison discipline, and by
the system of labour and separate confinement introduced in
1846. The government hoped to be able to carry out
such measures as would meet the wishes of the colonists,
. .

- - -
Mr. AGLION BY brought up the report of the committee
on the Plymouth Election, which declared that Mr. Collier
was duly elected at the last election for the borough of
Plymouth, and that Mr. Mare was not duly elected, he
having been by himself and his agents guilty of bribery.
(For further particulars see the report of the ermmittee.)
PEGU.
Mr. COBDEN gave notice that on this day month be
would bring under the notice of the house the annexation
of Pegu to the territories of the East India Company.
LAND TAX.
Mr. WODEHOUSE,asked the following questions of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, relating to the proposed
measure for giving increased facility to the act for the re-
demption of the land tax—viz., whether the measure now
proposed is intended to supersede, or in any way to preclude
the consideration of the question of • periodical revision ;
also, whether a more extensive inquiry should not now be
made, by means of which the evils complained of might be
in a great degree lessened, without infringing the benefits
already realised by redemption.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
measure now proposed was intended for-no other pur-
se, except to facilitate the redemption of the land tax on
behalf of those who desired to rid their land of the burdens
laid on it in that particular form. That was the sole ob-
ject of the amendment. It was not intended to interfere
with the question of periodical revision. That wu under
judicial cognisance at the present moment, and it was pro-
bable that judgment would be given in the course of a few
weeks. The present, therefore, was an unfortunate moment
to interfere in the matter. It was not intended to institute
a more extensive inquiry for apportioning the land tax be-
tween different parties.
DUBLIN EXHIBITION.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN wished to know from the Secretary-at-
War whether it is his intention to recommend to the noble
lord, the Commander-in-Chief, the propriety of granting
leave of absence to such officers of the army as may be de-
sirous of viewing the Great Industrial Exhibition in Dublin,
similar leave having bean granted during the holding of the
Great Exhibition in 1851.
Mr. S. HERBERT said thi Commander-in-Chief was
the person woo had the power of giving leave of absence.
At the present time there were camps forming, so that leave
of absence would probably not be given ; but at a later
period of the year it was possible that leave would be given
u in the case of the Great Exhibition,
FARMERS AND THE INCOME TAX.
Sir F. KELLY wished to ask the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether it was proposed on the part of the go-
vernment to introduce any clause into the Income Tax Bill
which would give farmers • choice or option of being as-
sessed on the amount of their rental or on the actual profits
made, as was done under schedule D. Having understood
tho right hon. gentleman to refer to some relief of that
hied, he thought it would be satisfactory if, before the dis-
cussion took place, he would distinctly state what it was
to be.

,
Land, but that they should do it so precipitate., as set to seoesmity of the interference of parliament is.ix this pies- and would promote the interestsof this great country, with- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
leave themselves time to consider and discuss any other Non ; he believed it to be quite necessary that there should out doing anything to destroy that security for life and pro- aware that there was any occasion for introducing a new
mode of punishing convicts, nor time t 3 take parliament be some alteration in the law, because transportation could perty here which it was most essential to maintain. (Hear.) clause on the subject. At present farmers had the option of
into their councils, as by the constitution they were bound not be carried out to the extent that the law allowed, and Lord CAMPBELL asked whether the mover of the being assessed according to the rule provided in schedule
to do. How far was it just that Van. Diemen's Land that was another reas.m why he could not c ncur amendment meant it to be added to the resolution, or to be IL and had the power of appeal, and of requiring to be as-
should demand from us, not only concessions, but Met*. in the motion of hit noble friend. He believed a substitute for it. If the former, it quite concurred with sesied on their actual profits; and he did not think any
mons so hasty and precipitate as that i Ile would that a variety of suceessful experiments proved the m ttion ; the y were perfectly harmonious. more lenient arrangement could be made.
remind them that the whole population had been that they bad discovered a satisfactory system of secondary The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had pot it as an SCOTCH SPIRITS.
created by the transportation system, without even punishments equally applicable to convicts who were to be amendment ;to leave out all the words of the original re- Lord NAAS said, seeing the Chancellor of the Exchequer
excepting New Zealand—(hear, hear)—for distant as seat to the colonies, or who were to he discharged in this solution after the word s. that." in his place, he begged to ask him whether it was the in-
it was, it would not have been available for set- country. Ile thought great blame attached to parliament The E irl of CHICHESTER stated that he bad so pro- tention of the government to propose any alteration in the
tiers but for the wealth and resources created in and to government for not having made more adequate posed it. present malt drawback on home-made spirits in Scotland ?
that part of the world by the system of transportation, provision for secondary punishment, when everybody knew Lord CAMPBELL said in that case, he should advise The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
They might talk till they were tired about the moral di,' that transportation was always becoming more and more their lordships to adopt the address and reject the amend- recently understood it to be the desire of the Irish distillers
advantages of a convict population, but with such prospects difficult. The noble earl concluded by moving his amend- meat. (Hear, hear.) Asa judge of the land, and having that the malt drawback in Scotland should be abolished,
they would never prevent persons from going there. Cer- mt nt. a seat in their lordships' house, he thought it his duty to but he should bo very slow to make any alteration without
thinly if he (the noble earl) were contenaidatieg emigration, The Earl of DERBY said the noble earl had entered into take that course. It was clearly the intention of the legis- previously giving the Scotch distillers an opportunity of
Van Diomen's Land would be the colony Le should choose. a detail of the course parliament had pursued for some lature that sentences of transportation should be carried being heard. The government would not preclude them-
But if transportation ceased, any man that expected to years with regard to secondary punishment, and no one was into effect ; this was evident from tho various acts passed selves from considering the matter on its merits ; but as at
'sake his livelihood other than by the labour of his owa better qualified to speak on th- subject of transportation at different times limiting imprisonment in this country present advised they had no intention of doing what was
hands, would be insane to tie there ; !teat's' it wasobvious and eecondary punishment than the noble earl. He must to three years ; and such was evidently the intention of desired.
that no produce he could raise by the means of labourers, soy, however, that in the greaot part of his speech he had both the houses of the legislature. (Hear, hear.) The The Exchequer Bills Bill was read a third time and
ro whom he must pay such wages as winal.l deter them given the go-by to the question, as his amendment did to government were meditating the substantial abolition of passed.
from going to the,diggings, MONASTIC INSTITUTIONS.
would have any lance of cons- tt.e resolution of the noble earl on the cures trenches, transportation. Two months ago, when he was about to
poling_ in the market with that brought it ,m America or Ile heli -v v 1 that there were many offences to goon the circuit, he asked the noble duke (the Duke of Mr. T. CHAMBERS said, in rising to introduce this cob-
one England. (Hear, bear.) dlowevsr, Ls thz legislative selieh the I.unishment of transportation was sow applied Newcastle) whether that punishment was or was not to be ject, he felt inconveniently, and even painfully, the ditficul-
rimed had spoken, he must asume that it expressed the hr which it would not be convenient to Continue it. The continued, and the noble duke intimated not only his opi- ties of his task ; and it teas not the least of those difficulties
episnens of the community ; and, right or wrong, that noble earl who had jest eat down went farther in dispe- nion that it was no longer possible to send criminals to Van that he roes for the first time to claim the attention and in.

&theme of the boom (Cheers.) h. the statement he was
about to make, he wished to respect 'W e
Y Ims religious
I opinions and belief, and he would on no sia: none willingly
wound any hon. member's susceptibilities. But although he
desired to avoid introducing a theological discussion, it was es-
sential to the purpose which be had in view that he ahnuld
' state with the candour that befitted a member of parlia-
ment and with the fidelity of an English protestant, the
grounds on which he asked the house for legislative re-
dress. Those who had seen the notice on the paper would
have gathered from it that he was of opinion that there was
in this country a class of persons who were subject to un-
due coercion and restraint, and that the existing state of
the law was not adequate to their relief. That impression
prevailed in the country to a great extent. Many of the
most thoughtful, careful, philosophic, and benevolent per-
sons were of opinion that there were institutions existing
in this country alien front the free spirit of our
constitution; that such institutions had multiplied very
greatly within the last few years, and were now multiplying
with increasing rapidity, and that it was necessary that the
law on the subject should be amended. Ile did not wish
to conceal from the house that his motion was pointed more
especially against monastic institutions. (Hear, bear.)
There was nothing novel in the introduction of a measure
contemplating such an object; there were provisions in the
Roman Catholic Relief Act which were directed specifically
against monastic institutions, though they remained a dead
letter. (Hear' hear.) He knew that those who were in
favour of such establishments were in the habit of describ-
ing them as places of calm retreat and seclusion, where
ladies might retire from the world and enjoy a peace and
tranquillity which they could not obtain amid the busy
scenes of life.

see her at stated intermits, but how absurd to 3117:77,
• substitute for the kindly and racial intercou-se of kindred,
a hen the nun could only see her friends in the presence of
the superior. (Hear, hear.) It was, to use a trip
phrase, adding insult to injury, to tall that the
privilege of seeing one's friends. (Hear, h . eat )
The nun passed in fact away from all cont ol elate r of the
law or the constitutiot, tor once within the walls of a can'.
; vent, there was neither inspection, communicates', or car-
I respondence. (Hear, hear.) Out of the light of the ma.
atitution, out of the reach or the law, out of the hearing of
her friends, the poor nun, if diseontinted with her way of
life, was perfectly unprotected and helpless. (Hear, hear.)
In the present state of the law this must be practically,
although not theoretically, the case, for the house must
know that the law stood helpless at the door of a nunnery,
as the emperor of old did at the gate of the papal
palace. It was not possible to get the law of England
into operation for redress on that quarter, and
it was only done in foreign countries ey provisions
framed specially for the purpose. Clear, hear.) The or-
dinary law on the continent had been lItCl stained to be am
strong enough, and therefore in several catholic counties
pronsione bad been made stronger than those which they
were denounced in this country for asking. (Hear, hen
It had been urged—what proof have you tact the Musks
are unhappy ? One sufficient reason to his mind was, that
a nunnery was a place of restraint, where females were
held in a strict bondage and subject to irresponsible power.
That at least could nut be denied—(hear, hear)—a power,
too, which was exercised in impenetrable seamy.
(LcMd cries of " Hear, hear.") What then was
the inference ? It was that the law should be
vigilant in protecting the rights of parties placed
in such a situation. It was said, also, that there was lie
whichystery tihn.ytherosueldemagaeks,e and
complaints,uniites had
need to pass a special law, and that such a law would bo
unconstitutional, but let the house remember that they bad
special laws for the protection of idiots and lunatics, although
lucid
de
intervalsw a
no
in mßut
what chance or interval had the 'lour nun ? She might be
1 happy, it was true, but if wretched she was without soy
power of appealing to the British law. They had passed
laws fur the protection of factory boys and girls, and sailor
boys, and why should there be any hesitation about
these poor nuns ? There was yet one feature in these
Institutions, which was perhaps the most objectionable
in their whole system. The convents in England and
Wales wcre affiliated with inatitutions of a similar kind on
the continent, and therefore at any moment, or under any
circumstances, a person might be deported, transported for
life, and it would be impossible for the officers of justice to
trace out in what direction the exile had gone. (Hear.)
He had said that there was nothing analogous to this in
England, and now he asked bon. members to cite a case in
which there was any analogy. (Hear, hear.) here was
imprisonment for life, seclusion from all social intercourse,
severance frorn domestic ties, and deprivation of the protection
of the law. (Hear, hear.) In addition to that there was
the chance of transportation for life, without offence and
without trial, and witho t the slightest chance of protec-
tion from the constituted authorities. But it would be
said, " You only wake genera) statements, and have not
giien one example." In his judgment, his case did not
rest on *Mete instances, nor could it with half the stability
it derived from the propositions he had stated. The argu-
ments he had used had better foundation than single in-
stances; and beside., had be quoted a single
instance, it wculd be said that the single instance of
wretchedness only proved the general rule of content.
ment. Besides, one ground of his complaint was that they
could not get the facts, and that the Ounce of fiats was
a proof of the secrecy and success of the system. If the
country were covered with refueee nuns escaping on every
side, it might be said there was no need of the law inter-
fering, as the nuns escaped already. That argument bad
been used on a former occasion, but he WOU'AI advise hon.
members not to repeat it now. However, one or two in-
stances he would give, observing that his case was very
much strengthened by what had occurred in another place,
where a most rev. prelate and a right rev. prelate had
spoken on the previous evening and cited examples of the
evils now existing. The Archbishop of Dublin said—. He
would take the liberty of mentioning a case which had come
within his own knowledge, and for the accuracy of which he
could vouch. There was a boy in the service of u certain in-
stitution in Dublin, who resided at the institution. lie
fortunately had a lather and mother alive, and occasion.
ally went home to sec his parents. Not having visited them,
however, for some time, they became alarmed, and in-
quired for him at the institution; bat they were put off
with evasive answers. At last, becoming very much
alarmed, they demanded him at the bead of a body of
police, when he was reluctantly produced, but in so
frightfully emaciated a stste, that it made one's blood
curdle to hear of the cruelties which had been inflicted
on the poor boy. If he had, nit had a father and mother
alive, he would leave their lordships to guess
what chance he would ever have had of being re-
leased. (Hear, hear.) Another instance had also
come to his knowledge. There was a protestant lady
in Dublin, most of whose relatives were Roman
catholic!, and she had formerly been of that church.
She had, however, for many years been a mem-
ber of the protestant church, and was bringing up her
children as protestants. She was frequently assailed, and
offers of pecuniary 333leante (she being in narrow circum-
stances) were made to her if she would return into the
bosom of the church of Rome. That might be all fair
enough ; but he would not have done it, for he would
rather not have converts obtained in that way. (Hear,
hear.) This poor woman was thus assailed constantly, ant
her protestant friends (for relatives she had none) procured
for her a situation in England, and they had even engaged
a passage for her, when just at that time she disappeared,
and had never been seen by any of them since. They
had inquired earnestly after her, and had traced her from
one house to another, and at last had ascertained where she
was admitted to be ; but they could only get messages
from her, laying that she had returned to the church of
Rome, and wished to have no further intercourse with her
friends. This might he true ; but it would have been more
satisfactory if she had been produced, and such a statement
bad come from her own lips. (Hear, hear.) A letter was
at last produced purporting to be written by her, but her
friends all agreed that it was not her handwre'ng." (liter,
hear.) From that time to the present she bad not heel
seen. (" Hear, hear," and cries of " Name" from
the Roman catholic members.) Ile believed the facts
could not be denied, but at all events hon. mem-
bers might have plenty of opportunity for inve-tigation.
He did not believe the statement was the Archbishop of
Dublin's invention; and he could assure the house it was
not his own. The Bishop of Norwich stated the following
case : He would mention a cue which had come under
his observation two years ago. He was residing in the
neighbourhood of Dublin, when an application was made
to him by a Roman catholic mother, who asked him to ob-
tain information as to the particular nunnery in which
her child had been placed. She thought him to be a Ro-
man catholic priest, and he felt bound at once to undeceive
her, or be might have heard more of her story.
He advised her to apply to the late Dr. Murray, the
Roman catholic Archbishop of Dublin." The Bishop of Nor-
wich could give her no assistance. This Roman catholic
mother was entitled by law to the custody of her child, but
the person she consulted could give her no assistance except
by referring her to the Roman catholic primate. A more
recent case had occurred in France, and was
fully detailed in a recent number of the Christie,'
Times. A superior and eight nuns of the Society of St Vin-
cent de Paul had determined upon renouncing the Roman
catholic faith, and becoming protestants. 'the superior was
only under temporary vows, which would expire on the 29th
of last October, but the vows of the nuns were of consider-
ably longer duration. Their intentions were discovered.
The superior made an appointment to meet her friends on
the 29th October, but the nuns made no appearance to this
hour. The other nuns were sent away a hundred miles to
some affiliated institution where the law or their friends
could not follow them. They were to have written, but a
profound silence followed, and their friends would never
hear of them, unless the civil power were put on their
track. One of them had, indeed, escaped, for she was dead.
(Rear, hear.) These statements were often laughed at,
but never refuted—in fact, the time was gone by for
contradicting them. They could be cited out of Roman
catholic books. The other plan would be more candid
to admit and justify them. (Hear, hear.) It was of no
lase pleading the goaeral issue any longer; they had better
confess and avoid. (" Rear," and laughter.) Ile would
now, with the permission of the house, mention and antici-
pate a few of the objections that were likely to be taken.
First, it might be said that the steps proposed would be an
invasion of religious liberty, but they were not going to
compel a Roman catholic lady to abandon her vows, or to
break up communities of religious females, when they were
satisfied with their condition. Their case was that when a
person was not satisfied, when it was a tyranny of mind
and body, person and property, and an invasion of religious
liberty itself, it was proper for the law to interfere. (Hear,
hear.) It was to be remembered that these institutions
were no part of the Raman catholic church, but had often
been persecuted and denounced, although afterwards
taken into favour. It was optional whether or
no the church shoild take them into connexion,
and therefore this could not be considered to be
a religious question. Again, it migh• lie said that it would
be an insult to a lady of high character and station, and so
forth, to trespass on her seclusion. Now if that argument
was to be used, he would beg hon. members to bear in mind
that such an objection could not stand for a moment, be-
cause if there was no wrong there would be no reason for
the bill. On the other hand, if wrong was done, who
would balance the inconvenience of an occasional visit
against the evil to be redressed. They were not to complia
anent away the lives of the Queen's subjects in order Oast
some iady of high station might not bo disturbed, or to ray
that helpless women were to be imprisoned fur life a the
hands of irresponsible authority lest the privacy of a few
should be invaded. (Hear, hear.) Again, it might be
said that this bill 'violated the maxim of British law, which
said that a man's house was his castle ; huh it
should not be forgotten that the law violated that eaactomy
every day. If a Custom-house officer suspected contrataind
tobacco no bolts would be strong enough to pre tent his en-
trance. (Hear, hear.) The law interfered similarly fat
parish apprentices and factory children, and why should it
not do so in this case ? This led him to state briefly the
remedy he proposed. The first anxiety en his mind hest
been to do as little as might be necessary, to do as little as
might be, ant to satisfy the public mina with the, smallest
possible sacrifice of private feeling. (Hear, `aura He
proposed, therefore, that the Secretary of State should have
power to appoint one or two remiss, and t;nat those per
sons having reasonable grounds for belie,' og that improper
coercion and restraint were exercised on fam'aca, might select
a justice of the peace and procead in his company to
ascertain the facts. That was
all he wanted. The law
was strong enough, and all the y wanted to provide against
was the m e, feared
mystery that the
, existed. Re believed
that that mystery magnified the popular apprehension, but
nsaa whenever there WP3 stery there was always ground Ca

The hon. member was here interrupted by the appear-
ance of Sir B. Hall at the bar, who stated that he had
been to the House of Lords, on behalf of the
House of Commons, and that their lordships desired
a conference is the Painted Chamber on the subject of the
Tynemouth election. The conference occupied about ten
minutes, the Lower House being represented by Lord J.
Russell, Mr. Disraeli, Mr. Sidney Herbert, Lord John
Mangers, Sir J. Graham, and several other members.
Mr. T. CHAMBERS then resumed. The people of this
country did not believe that the description given of nun-
neries by Roman catholicsjwsui universally true ; and there
were certain grounds for their disbelief with which he
must now shortly trouble the house. His arguments were
derived from the literature, the laws, and the annals of the
Roman catholic church. And here he wished to observe
that his motion was pointed against all monastic places,
whether Anglo-catholic, Mormonite, or Agapemonic • al-
though as the Roman catholic church was the only body
ing such institutions which had a literature and laws
}assaying
only that he could draw illustrations of hie
argument. Now the first reason why he thought there
should be some alteration in the law was—and it was one
Idrat struck the popular mind naturally enough—that all
maventa were built like prisons. (Rear, hear.) They
were bolted and barred, and the windows were grated;
they were enclosed within high walls ; there was a porter at
the entrance day and night, and the architecture seemed
all to have but one object, that of safe custody. In the in-
terior were not only cells, and refectories, and chapels, but,
if report were true, there were dungeons also. (Laughter
from the Irish members.) That was stated, when the sub-
ject was discussed lot, on the testimony of high witnesses,
and no explanation was offered. (Hear, hear.) These
things made the public suspect that such buildings were not
erected merely to be the abode of contented and happy in-
mates, but rather with the view of keeping those who had
once been entrapped. (Hear, hear.) There was another
reason why the public distrusted the character of these in-
stitutions. They knew that the Council of Trent had de-
nounced the most severe anathemas against those who
either induced or compelled a nun to enter a convent uainit
her will; and they were also aware that even church laws
might be broken for church objects, and absolutic
obtained easily enough for the crime denounced—(" Nc
no,")—the motive converting the crime into a merit. The
existence of the law on the statute book was far more con-
clusive proof of the existence than of the non-existence of
the crime ; unless, indeed, it could be shown that the exist-
ence of a law against sheep stealing proved that no such
offence was ever committed. (Hear, hear.) This argu-
ment might not be considered conclusive, but it was one
that influenced the public mind. Again, the people of
England knew that the canon-law denounced severe penal-
ties against a nun who forsook a convent after having once
taken monastio vows ; and ,they thought that no such de-
nunciation would have been uttered unless there had been,
in some cases, a desire to escape from bondage. (Hear, hear.)
The church of Rome held monastic vows to be of sacred obli-
gation, and. therefore enacted penalties against those who
violated them ; but the British constitution knew nothing
about their imperiousness or obligation, and they were
broken with as much ease as Samson broke the grecr.
withes the moment a nun in this country claimed the pro-
tection of British law. (Cheers.) That might not be a
conclusive argument, though he thought it was pretty
nearly so ; but he was now about to state one to which the
ingenuity of hon. members who represented Ireland would
be taxed to find an answer. If there were no dissatisfied
nuns, how came it to pass that page after page of Roman
catholic sacred literature was employed in exhorting and
denouncing nuns who desired to escape, in describing the
heavy penalties they would incur and the enormous sin
they would commit by seeking to be released from their
vows ? How could hon. gentiemen opposite escape from
the inference? Did they mean to say that there was not
in their church such a class of persons as discontented
nuns? (Hear, hear.) Why here was a state of things
assumed, taken for granted, represented as an evil creating
scandal, and requiring the prompt application of remedies.
(Hear, hear.) Hera was a class of persons treated as die-
contented, addressed, remonstrated with, and denounced as
such. (Hear, hear.) It might be said that there were
exceptions. Now it was exceptions that the opponents of
such places were in search of. (Hear, hear.) They did
not want to enter a nunnery and set free from
monastic vows any lady who was deirous of remaining
under them—(hear, hear)—but if they found a class whom
learned doctors exhorted, denounced, and warned, these
were the persons whom they were looking for, and the
British constitution would say to them, " You are free."
No; it did not say that completely yet, but he confidently
predicted that if net in this session, yet at no distant
period justice would be done in this country, as it was done
already in every other enlightened country in the world.
It might be said that these denunciations were written •
long time ago and in other countries ; but, so long as the
Roman catholic system and human nature were the same
time and place must be immaterial to the argument.
He would now state to the house the law in
the most important countries in Europe in reference to this
question. In Prussia no novice could take the veil without
being first examined as to the sufficiency and propriety of
her motives in taking such a step, the examination being
conducted by the civil authorities and not by the church.
(Hear, hear.) In Russia no convent could receive a nun
without first making an application to the synod of Moscow
•the subject, with an affidavit from the party who was
stated to be desirous of entering, declaring that it was of
her own free will and choice that she was about to adopt
that step. In Bavaria vows were not allowed by law for
more than three years, besides which there was a quarterly
'visit of the civil authorities for the purpose of ascertaining
not only the fiscal state of the nunneries, but also
whether there was any nun who desired to relinquish
the seclusion of • convent. In Austria nuns might at any
time address the civil government privately, stating their
desire to leave the convent ; and the application was at-
tended to, and they were permitted to leave or not accord-
ing to the circumstances assigned, and the reasons of the
me. In the convents in France—in many of them at
least—the vows were temporary, and the civil authorities of
the locality might visit them whenever they considered it
necessary to do so. (Hear, hear.) Now, the existence of a
strong public feeling on the subject in this country was
alone, he thought, a reason for doing something ; while the
justice of that feeling was proved by the several reasons
which he had given ; by the character of the buildings ; by
the watchfulness and vigilance observed is them; by the
fact that ingress was never followed by egress—Chair,
hear)—by the decree of the Council of Trent against com-
pelling reluctant persons to enter a convent ; by the canon
law denouncing a discontented rata; by pages of rhetoric
on the subject from doctors of the church ; and, finally,
by the practice of the enlightened countries of the continent.
But it might be said that their object was to invade religious
liberty. To that argument his answer was, that they did
not want to invade religious liberty, but to protect civil
liberty. The whole question was, in fact, not whether
religious liberty was secured, but whether civil liberty
was invaded ; whether against the law and the constitu-
tional rights of Englishmen and Englishwomen, indi-
viduals were not immured within stone walls, deprived of
all communication with their friends, and consequently of
all the blessings of social intercourse. (Hear, hear.) From
some observations he had heard about him, he suspected
that there was a great want of information abroad on this
subject. Hon. members were, perhaps, aware, that
by the Roman Catholic Relief Act, there was
a provision, making it, in plain terms, illegal to
establish any monastic establishment for males in this
country, but there was also • saving clause respecting con-
vents, which at the time the act passed had only about
half a dozen of these establishments to legislate for. But
now, if they looked to the Roman catholic directory, they
would find that there were actually 75 convents in Eng-
land and Wales. (Hear, hear.) 1 hat was in iatelf au im-
portant fact in this protestant country, but it was still more
startling when compared with former years. In ISSI there
were .53; in 1852, 62 ; in 1853, 75—the number having in-
creased 19 in four years-9 in one year and 13 in the last
year. (Hear, hear.) No doubt 'Lenten catholic gentlemen
were perfectly at liberty to multiply their institutions and
to rejoice at their success, but surely they would not con-
sider it an unreasonable request that female s should not be
impelled to be happy against their will. (.. Hear, hear,"
mad a laugh.) But with respect to this uninterrupted hap-
=ilihe would refer those gentlemen to the text of the
n catholic writers, who complained constantly of the
turbulence of convents, and the great scandal that arose to
the church in consequence. Surely they could not
infer unbroken tranquillity when disturbance was so often
confessed, or happiness, when resignation was so often
counselled with the most forcible rhetoric. (Hear.) Ile
had mentioned the Roman catholic nunneries, hut there
wee another class of conventional establishments, the
Anglo-catholic nunneries., which required quite us careful
looking after. (Hear, hear.) Of thee,' they bad unfortu-
nately no return at all, but perhaps they wou'.d not be over
ectiraated at 100, each cuntainin .) thirty io'.nates, and this
would give the large aggregate of :1,000 nuns for
England and Wales. (Hear, hear.) A. young laity taking
the veil might be looked upon as an insignificant circum-
stance, hut it should be recollected that there was nothing
analogous to it in the institutioe,s of this country; there''
was nothing like it, in fact, eXr,pt dying, because when a
passed away entirely, not
hew mast intimate friends.
yonoulyngfrom womanihe
public, took the ebuvtei,✓e !rem* "
It might be urged, perhaps, that friends were allowed to