The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-16 00:00:00

esemunie speculation., The same abjection, if it held good
at al, e mild be good against every financial alteration ever
intenduriel; fur them was no change of that sort which did
not More pe less cucourage opeciihition on the port of those
who weraltenceroed. But, then, his right hon. friend, the
Chaniellor of the Exchequer, doubted the sufficiency of the
security. Oa this point, be (Sir W. Clay) must say, that all,
he bad ever heard, led him to think that this was an un-
founded objection, and that well-selected lines in Ireland,
would not only afford good security, hut good remunerative
prolate, (Hear, hear.) Having noticed oricity theo: objec-
tions, he would ask them to look, on the other hand, at the
enormous advantages which the extension of railways to Ire-
land would secure. Coupled with those advantages, the.
question of immediate relief was nothing. It was tba future
of Ireland that appalled him. (Hear, hear.) All England
was willing to assist in endeavouring to meet the present ca-
lamity ; but how to meet the future was a question of fur
greater difficulty. For the future they had a great social
system to build up, the very foundation of which was as yet
unleid. Ireland, as a country, was in the moat elementary
state of human society. What they heard of the condition of
the people of Ireland led them to so pace they were more
like North American Indians, than like a civilised commu-
nity. Each man in Ireland only raised enough to support
himself, and that of the worst description of human food.
It was our duty now to endeavour to alter this condition of
the people ; to endeavour to bring them round to a sound
rate of society in which cspital and labour should each take
their allotted part. That state of society could only be in-
duced by affording safety for the capital invested, whether
it was in the development of the agriculture, the com-
mercial, or the mineral resources of the nation, or of the
Illsheries upon her coast. It was his (Sir W. Clay'.) belief
that one of the best and surest modes of effecting this ob-
ject was, by the formation of railways, and that the govern-
ment might do more, by their extension to open out the
national resources and encourage the application of capital
to Ireland, than by any other means he could conceive. On
these grounds he thought it would be well if her Majesty's
government would take into their consideration some
modified plan for the appropriation of some small part
of the public money to the extension of this system.
Mr. SHAW said he did not intend to enter into any
general details respecting the measure before the house, but
ha was anxious to state the reasons en which he would give
his vote on the present occasion. His feslings would lead
him to vote one way, but his reason and judgment forced
him to vote the other. In all the affairs of life, political as
well as other, they must not lose sight of the practical conse-
quences of their actions. They had been informed by the
noble lord opposite (Lord John Russell) that the fate of the
government depended on the success of the present
measure ; and they had heard the reply of his noble friend
the member for Lynn, that he was prepared for the reepon-
sibility thatmight devolve upon him. But when he (Mr. Shaw)
saw the disjointed and disabled state of political parties, and
that the financial and general aspect of public affairs was
such u might fill the firmest mind with anxious cares ; but
above all, looking to the present calamitous condition of Ire-
hind, he confessed he could not take upon himself the respon-
sibility of being a party to any vote which, at such a
crisis, might overturn the government, or attempt to lona
a new one in the present condition of public affairs. (Hear.)
For these reasons, he would vote, though reluctantly, against
the second reading. (Hear, hear.)
Sir W. MOLES WORTH said, it seemed to be the opinion
of the hon. member for Kilkenny and most of the Irish
members, that money should be expended and spent without
stint in Ireland for the relief of the distress in that country.
He said this without meaning anything disrespectful towards
the members from Ireland, for he sincerely pitied them
(Hear, hear.) Having witnessed in their own country
Peened, of suffering which no language could express or ima-
gination conceive, it was not to be wondered at if
they were carried away by their feelings and readily adopted
every measure that might be proposed in the form of a
remedy. But it was the duty of English members to exercise
a wise and calm judgment. (Cheers.) The people el
England were rady to make every sacrifice to save the
people of Ireland from perishing by stn Trion, but having
done that,they would expect that measures should be devised
in order to prevent the recurrence of a similar calamity.
(Hear, hear, hear.) He did not think the measure
proposed by the noble lord opposite, would accomplish the
objects which he had in view. The parties who would be
really benefited by the measure were the landlords, the
holders of shares, and the mortgagees. He was of opinion
that, before they discussed the question of giving money
to Ireland for the benefit of Irish landlords and Irish share-
holders, they ought to pus an efficient poor-law for that
country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said he would not have entered into any
topics not immediately connected with the question before
the house, were it not for the short and impressive speech
of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Shaw). After thatspeech
the house would not think it impertinent in him if he alluded
to the position in which they etooL The right hon. gentle-
man, with a frankness and good feeling which were creditable
to him, said that contrary to his economical convictions he
would give his vote against the second readino of
the bill, because the fate of the government depended
on its rejection. He could easily understand why part
connexions might not only induce but authorise one indi-
vidual member to vote against a measura which he con-
sidered in the abstract beneficial t . his country—if he
thought it was merely an instrument by which an ambitious
party might ride into power. But that was not the position
of his right hon. friend. His right hon. friend was, and he
hoped he would still remain, with those who now, fighting
against odds, found themselves, most unexpectedly on
their parts, opposed to the existing government. What
were the circumstances which led them into that position?
The present measure suggested itself to his noble friend
some time ago us one which, after being well and maturely
digested, he considered would be peculiarly eluded to the
circumstances of Ireland. The Queen's speech directed their
attention to measures for the relief of Deland. His noble
friend came down on the first day of the session to propose
his measure, but seeing that the government were prepared
with certain measures also, his noble friend de
dined to run the chance of appearing to oppose
the governmeat, whine general policy he was inclined
to support, and therefore he did not bring his measure for-
ward on that occasion. When the government brought
forward their measures for the relief to Ireland his noble
friend did not give the least intication of hostility, though
there was encouragement from more thin one section to view
the measures in a captious spirit. They considered the cir-
cumstances in which the noble lord succeeded to power, and
the unexampled emergency which he was called on to con.
trol, and they therefore thought it would be an un-
worthy part to criticise in a petty spirit the
conduct of the government. (Hear, hear.) His
noble friend having supported the government mea-
sures, and believing that the measure which he had under
his own consideration would be of great importance and
benefit to Ireland ; he brought it forward not in as anta-
gonistic spirit, hut in a spirit ancillary to the measures of
the government. His noble friend told the government, and
his were not words of lip rhetoric for the purpose of in-
fluencing a superficial public opinion, for in private
as in public he expressed his sincere convictions on
the subject —he thought that his proposition would
have been received in a friendly spirit by the government,
and the noble lord, when he first spoke on the subject, did
not indicate that the existence of bin government would
depend on its passing or not, but if that was his intention he
ought to have told his noble friend that it was a measure
which the government could not accept, and that he would
divest himself of the responsibilities of office if it was carried.
(Hear, hear.) For all that happened afterwards, therefore,
the noble lord was responsible and not his noble
friend, and his noble friend ought not now to be brought
forward as a person of rampant ambition, who wished
to upset the gnvernment. (Hier, hear.) His noble friend
had done nothing but what a man of honour and spirit must
have felt himself obliged to do after the bill had been al-
lowed by the government to be introduced and read a first
time. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend said he did not
think there was any probability of a vote adverse to the go-
vernment onthe preeent occasion. He (Mr. Disracli)saw per-
.oll9 on both side., of the house wbocame into parliament about
the time that he hi mselfentered it. At that time they were told
that the government of the day would not last because they
were going nut on an Irish question, but they did not go
out on as Irish question. Two years after that the leader
of the mint powerfol party in opposition that ever existed in
this country succeeded to office, but in three days he resigned,
announcing that Ireland was his great difficulty. (Hear.)
The government which suceeded were in a mino-
rity in that house as regarded England, and
though they were not able to govern England, which
generally governed itself, he confessed they seemed to be the
only party who were able to govern Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
But the Irish question before them was not the Irish ques-
tion of 10 yeas! ago. (lioar, hear.) The question then
was how Ireland was to be governed, the question was now
how Ireland was to be fed. (Hear.) He thought it would
be well before entering into a discussion of the merits of
his noble Mend's project, to bring clearly before the mind
the social condition of the country to which his measure was
to be applied. They were not now to discuss whether
political franchise should be increased or diminished, whe-
ther municipal privileges were to be sustained or abolished,
but if when they were discussing these subjects, they found
that all this time they were discussing the state of a country
where the population was the densest of any coun-
try in the world—where the population as regarded the
arable area was denser even than that of China ; if they also
found that the population subsisted solely on the land, and
that the most intense poverty existed amongst that dense
population--that the circulating medium averaged only 1/.
or 30s. per head, while in sterile Scotland, it averaged
161. per head, and if they were aware of all these
things, he thought they should hare paused before
, they spent so much time in discussing what the
number of members of parliament ought to be, what the
number of qualifications of electors ought to be, and what
the number of mayors and aldermen pught to be, while the
social condition of the country was in such a state. (Hear.)
lie believed that throughout the country there was but one
opinion, that it was a mere hallucination to imagine that any
political panacea could cure the griefs of Ireland. The noble
lord said, the other night, that the present couditioa of Ire-
land presented a famine of the 13th century with a popula-
tion of the 19th. The image was picturesque, but fallacious.
The nearer parallel would be, with a famine in a country
under her Majesty's sway—with a country whose popule,-
lion rivalled in its density theta Ireland, with India at a sea-
son when her rice crop had failed. As to the cause of all
this misery, it did not at all do fur hon. gentlemen oppo-
site quip tly to assign it to • dispensation of Providence,
by way of excusing their own Inches no, the calamity had
been foretold long since, by men whose opinions were enti-
tled to the greatest weight ; Lord Wellesley had distinctly
progeoeticated the gradual deterioration of the potato crop
to the final subsidence of the eaeulent into a pernicious
lumper. Mr. Drummond, too, had clearly foreseen and
foretold the coming event, hut no measures had been triton
to meet the contingent evil. The government, indeed, had
its measures, and, in themselves, these measures had his
arum support ; but they did not meet the actual pres.