The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-13 00:00:00

14it EiNtitSS, FIiIDAY.: EVPIIII4I. MAY It, 1851

it expedient, and declined, and he thought it more dolly-
aisle to inform the 119ase of Commons of their dtwiatfUn. in
briTkr that the House of Commas an/pfit hike "ugh ether
eqla se a they Might think uxpedient.
e motion was then put and carried.
Lord BE AUMONT sari be agreed in the opinion ex-
pressed by the nate lord ( edeadale). ..
Ile Her/ of ABERDREN had already said he had no
great objection to adopt the course proposed by the noble
lord, although be did not agree with hien. He moved
that a message be sent to the House of Commons, acquaint-
ing them that this bower tinging eenaidered the report of
the select committee of the nouns of Commons, appointed
to consider a petition complaining of an undue election for
the borough of Clitheroe, sod the minute/of evidence taken
before it, do not think it expedient to concur in an address
to her Majnty praying for an inquiry.
The motion was agreed to.
BOROUGH OF MALDON.

Lord ST. LEONARD'S asked the Earl of Aberdeen
what was the intention of government with regard to
the address for an inquiry respecting the borough of
Dfaldon.
The Earl of ABERDEEN said he had read the evidence
in regard to all the other cases in which he had moved for
an address, but he had not read the evidence in this case
yet, end he could not therefore at present answer the
question.
Their lordships then adjourned at half-past seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TntrawAr, MAY 12.

The tiraaaas took the chair at 4 o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
•
The Lords' intendment* to the following bill were eon•
sidered and agreed to --Wakefield Soke Mills Bill.
The following bills were read a third time:—Australian
Agricultural Company; Dundee Waterworks; Great
Northern Railway (No. 1) ; Londonderry. Enni•killen,
and Sligo Railway; Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly Drain-
age and Reclamation ; and Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly

Railway.
The following bills were considered and ordered to be
read a third time:—High Ham and Ashcott Roads; Mid-
land Railway ; and York Drainage and Sanitary Improve-
ment and You Navigation.
The following bill was read a second time :—Upper
India Railway.
LONDON AND FINSBURY IMPROVEMENTS AND

in the leailirie beta which he had eland. hear.)
Per was no secret arrangement at giu; there could not
havo been. Mil right h friend the Member for Wells,
whom 1w mot casually, asked him how he wee likely to vote
upon the budget. (Great laughtei.) His answer was, that
he never gave a tory vote since be had had a seat in chat
house, and that he acme intended to do so. (Laughter.) The
right hon. gentleman then asked him what be thought of
the feelings of Irish members. He said he thought that if
Irish member could have anything like an assurance that
if the former min stern returned to power they would
not propose an income tax fur Ireland, that would have
weight with them. That was said on the steps of the Re-
form Club, just when he was coming down to the house.
The right hon. gentleman referred him to the budget of the
right hon. baronet the member for Halifax, and to Lis
speech in 1851, in which he stated that he was against ex-
tending the income tax to Ireland. He (Mr. M.
O'Connell) said. "Can I mention this ?" The reply wee,"
Certainly?' Ile did mention it, and he stated that he
had the authority of the right hon. gentleman the member
for Wells. Another thing occurred which his hon. friend
hod not mentioned. It wee said, " Will the late Chancellor
of the Exchequer (Sir C. Wood) repeat his statement on
the subject to the house ?" lie (Mr. M. O'Connell)
mentioned the matter to the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Hayter), and the right hon. baronet (Sir C. Wood)
did repeat his statement. (Hear, hear.) This we, an
exact statement of what occurred. For himself ho could
only say that what influenced him on the occasion was the
feeling that the interests of Ireland would be safer in any
other hands than in those of the late givernment.

Mr. HATTER trusted he should be permitted to say a
few words with regard to the aonversation which took
place between himself and hia hon. friends the members fur
Roscommon and Tralee. He daresay that what had
been stated by his hon. friend the member for Roscommon
was perfectly true in substance. (Laughter from the oppo-
sition.) Hulled no recollection of the matter, but he did
not mean at all to dispute the facts. (Hear, bear.) He
had no doubt that his hon. friend had a commu-
nication with him in the hurried manner in
which many such communications were made, and
with all of which he confessed he could not charge his
memory. (Ministerial cheers.) But he thought it quite
impossible that he could have gone to the extent that his
hon. friend had stated—that be could have said he had
any authority for stating the opinions of any of those who
might be called the leaders of the whig party, further than
what had been mentioned by his hon. friend the member
for Tralee. Of what really took place between himself and
his hon. friend the member far Tease, be had a distinct
recollection. Ile referred to the financial statement of the
late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir C. Wood). The
hon. gentleman asked him whether he thought it probable
that if the late government returned to power, they would
propose an income tax for Ireland. He referral his hon.
friend to the speech made by his right honourable
friend the member for Halifax, in 1851, in which his
right hon. friend distinctly stated that he thought Ireland
was in too exhausted a condition to bear the imposition
of en income tax. He stated to him, moreover, that he be-
lieved his right hon. friend still retained the opinion which
he expressed in 1851, and that he bad no hesitation in say-
ing that, it called upon to do so, he would again declare
that he considered Ireland, with all the ineumbrances which
were then upon it, in too exhausted a state to bear the
imposition of an income tax. He never told his hon. friend
that he hat any authority from his right hon. friend, or
any authority from any one, to express his opinion ; but
he believed he had a right, as every man had, to state
what his own political opinions were, and also to state, as
far as he knew them, the political opinions of those with
whom he had the honour to act. (Hear, hear.) Now
between the statement of his hon. friend the member
for Roscommon and that of his hoe. friend the

member for Trak*, there was no material difference except
with regard to the statement of his hon. friend the member
for Roscommon—that he professed to give the opinion of
the leading whigs. He could only say that if he did make
such a statement it was incorrect. His recollection of the
matter was, he repeated, inconsistent with the statement of
his hon. friend the member for Roscommon, although of
course he did nut doubt his hon. friend's word.
Sir C. WOOD was glad that this matter had at last been
brought before the house, and that they bad no longer to
deal with insinuations. He felt grateful to his hon. friend
the member for Mayo for bringing the subject before the
house the other night, and grateful also to his hon. friend
the member for Westmeath for introducing it that
evening. With regard to what he had said on this
subject, he begged to remark that it was recorded against
him in Mansard; and, as he was not in the habit of saying
one thing in the house and another out of it, he begged to
state that he recollected (as was understood) saying to his
right hon. friend the member for Wells (Mr. lisyter) ex-
actly what hie right hon. friend had stated to the house—
namely, that in the then circumstances of Ireland, with
the charges then resting upon it, he was against extending
the income tax to that country. (Hear, hear.) He said he
Ought the partial mode in which the right hon. gentlemen
ztite (Mr. Disraeli) proposed to extend it was not to he
ed—that if it were extended to Ireland at all it must
be applied to land. lie observed that the charge imposed
by what was termed " the labour rate " pressed so much on
the western districts of Ireland that while that charge
remained those districts would not be in a con-
dition to bear the income tax. Any one who
took the trouble to refer to what he said in that house would
see that no other interpretation could be put upon it. That
was his opinion then, and he stated it distinctly. Now, as
he stated a fortnight ago, if it had been proposed to
impose au income tax on Ireland in addition to the existing
charges, he could not have been a party to it; but when the
western districts were benefitted to such an extent as they
were by the remission of the consolidated annuities, he saw
no objection to such a step.
Mr. MALINS thought the house would agree with him
that nothing could be more incumbent on every hon. mem-
ber than to to cautious in stating facts within his own
knowledge involving personal character. The hon. mem-
ber for Mayo (Mr. Moore) had in his hearing stated distinctly
that Irish members bad been waited upon by the accredited
agents of the whip and the Peelites, who declared that if
they would join those partics in turning out Lord Derby's
government, they, in return' would undertake not to extend
the income tax to Ireland. Now, ho at once avowed that
when be heard that statement he believed there mast have
been some misapprehension; for, though he was opposed Is
polities to hon. members opposite, he trusted they would
always act on principles which would entitle them to re-
spect, and he bad told the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) the
other evening that when be said he knew a certain thing
that was in his mind conclusive. (Hear, hear.) The state-
ment of the hon. member for Westmeath, though made is
very distinct terms, now appeared to be erroneous.
Mr. MAOAN—No.
Mr. MALINS continued—lt now appeared that the right
hon. gentleman the member for Wells (Mr. Ilayter) was
not a party to any compact whatever—(bear, bear)—and
that the whole thing had its beginning and ending is one
of those numerous conferences sod conversations te which
that right hon. gentleman was a party. A statement
founded on one of those loose conversations which were got
up in that house, and a charge of perfidy and of unfitness te
govern the country, resting on the same basis, did appear
to him to call for some apology to the house. The characters
of public men were the property of the nation,
sad he hoped that what had occurred that even-
ing would be a warning to honourable members
not to make statements in that house, involving personal
character, which were founded on a mere conversation.
Mr. MAGAN said that the hon. and learned member who
had implied that he (Mr. Megan) had stated what was not
the truth, had fastened on a word which he (Mr. Megan)
had not used. He had fastened on the word "accredited
agent." He had not said that certain members came osten-
sibly as accredited agents, but he considered them—and he
would consider honourable members in whatever light he
thought proper—(laughter)—he considered the honourable
members to whom allusion bad been made as accredited
agents of the Whig and Peelite sections respectively, know-
ing their intimate and frequent intercourse with the respec-
tive government departments. He had not said they were
accredited, but they were looked upon as accredited, and he
had as much right to look upon them in that light
as be had to look upon the honourable and learned
member who had just spoken as an accredited agent
of Lord Derby. (Load laughter.) With regard to the
statement just made by that honourable and learned gen-
tleman—he supposed he must speak of it in strictly parlia-
n.entary language—it was decidedly both malicious and un-
true. (Loud laughter, and cries of "order.")
The SPEAKER intimated to the hon. member that the
two last words were such as were not permitted in that
house.
Mr. MAGAN had no objection to withdraw the
words. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOWYER said he was anxious to give in a few
words his testimony on this matter, the more especially as
he had been present at all the meetings held during the
present session by the Iri,h members, and as he had voted
so frequently against the government he would not be sup-
posed to have any bias in their favour. He could only say
that at not one of their meetings did he hear of any commu-
nication, either by an accredited 'gent, or by any other
person respecting the intentions of the present
government to exclude Ireland from the operation of
the income tax. No doubt there might have been
conversations on the subject, and the right hon. member for
Wells might have given his impressions as to what was
likely to be done in the event of the opposition becoming
the government, but nothing more had taken place, and
for his (Mr. Bowyer's) part, he might say that he had
known nothing of the matter until two or three days pre-
viously, when it was mentioned by the hon. and gallant
member for Westmeath. There was a circumstance which

corroborated his impression on this subject. There were
several among the persons present at the meeting held by
the Irish members immediately before the debate and di-
vision which expelled Lord Derby from office, with whom
a feeling evisted that a communication should be had with
the leaders of the opposition before they gave a vote which
might produce a change in the administration. Others,
amongst whom he (Mr. Bowyer) was one, thought that
such a course would not be expedient ; but he thought that
if a communication such as had been charged had tsk••n
place, this last discussion would not have been considered
necessary. lle submitted the mere facts to the house to
show what were the notions which had really been held by
the Irish members. tilear, hear.)
The proceedings were here interrupted by the Serjcant-
at-Arms introducing a messenger from the Lords, bringing
certain papers. The messenger having withdrawn,
Mr. LUCAS would ark the hon. ands learned member
whether it was worth while to continue his explanations
for the purpose of throwing doubt on the fact of authorised
communications having taken place. lie (Mr. Lucas) would
now state the facts, of which he had a distinct recollection.
(" Hear, hear," and a laugh) After the meeting to which
the hon. member for Rucommon had alluded, another
meeting took place, the hon. member for Tralee being in
the chair, and that hon. member told the Irish members