The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-14 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 14, 1853.

and Lad greatly usisted in its debates., (near) Sir Wm.
Grant, whom he was old enough to remember, had sat
in that house as Master of the Rolls, and he and those who
succeeded him acted with great independence and had
brought great learning and extensive information to guide
their deliberations on matters of great importance with re-
, gird to which the members of the house generally had not
by previous study acquired that particular knowledge which
Ought he of material use in deciding the questions brought
under their consideration. (Hear, hear.) It could not be
unties d to the Masters of the Rolls that they had been
swayed by any particular bias; on the contrary, they
always preserved perfect independence of character, and
only took part in the debate when they thought they could
contriloste to promote the object for which it was commenced.
He did not think, therefore, they would be either serving
their own interests or the interests of the country in ex-
cluding the Masters of the Rolls from that house. But it
was said—and this was the chief argument relied upon by
the noble lord who introduced the bill—that the (Hester of
the Rolls, a wed as other judicial officers, might be called
on judicially to determine questions affecting the interests
of his constituents. If this was the argument to be relied
on, then they ought not to stop where this bill ,topped. If
the Master of the Rolls was to be excluded on this ground,
he did not see why the Cursitor Baron of the Exchequer,
the record, re, and even the chairman of Quarter Ses-
sions, should not be also excluded. (Hear, hear.) He called
on the house therefore to weigh well the grounds on which
they were asked to take this step, and to consider whether,
if they pawed this bill, they would not be establishing a
principle, which, if worked out, would oblige them to go
farther than many might be prepared to go. lle called on
them to reflect whether, under the presumption that they
would be c utributine to the independence and utility of
the house by this exelesion, they would not rather detract
from its character and dignity by carrying the principle of
exclusion to a degree which was manifestly absurd, and de-
priving the house of tne advantage of those persons who
were, on mazy subjects, best qualified to assist them. (Hear,
hear.) Ile should therefore move that the bill be read •
ace Ind time that day six months.
Mr. HUME said he had been always an advocate for the
exclusion from that house of persons who held offices, the
duties of which he thought were incompatible with their
duties to the house,and ea that ground he should support the
second reading of the present bill. The duties of members
of parliament obliged them to be in the Rouse of Commons
day and night, and he thought that the eblieations of the
Master of the Rolls were not compatible with an efficient
periormance of those duties. (Hear.) Row could a Master
of the hulls, fir instance, discharge his duties on an elec-
tion consrei!tee or any other committee? (near, hear.) lie
mut either neglect los duty as Master of the Rolls or his
duty in that bowie. No one would be more rejoiced to see
the present Master of the Rolls in parliament than he,l
If he did not think it would bo a violation of a'
sound principle. On the same ground he w3/1 opposed to
Dr. Lushington being a member of that house and judge of
the Admiralty Court at the same time, although nu one was
' a more distinguished member of parliament than that
learned gentlemen. On that ground also he was opposed
to the Recorder of Dublin holding a seat in that house.
They should not look to the individual, but to the principle,
and vote accordingly. (llear.)
Sir F. KELLY regretted that the government were going
to oppose the bill of his noble friend. lie thought that it
' would be inconsistent with the dignity of the judges, and
tke high estimation in which they were held, to be obliged
to go about canvassing electors, and subjected to the qutie
tiouieg of constituents, who, however excellent most
of them might be, contained others who were no
hitter than an unscrupulous rabble. (Hear hear.)
The Muter of the Rolls was neat in dignity he believed, to
the Lord Chancellor and Chief Justice of the Queen's
Bench, and it would ye most unseemly to have him going
about through a large constituency selecting votes, and sub-
jected to the treatment which candidates had sometimes to
submit to, in his canvass. (Hear, hear). Besides, the part
he might be called on to take as a member of that house
would be calculated to lower the estimation in which ajudge
ought to be held. For instance, the house decided a
question last night, by a large majority against the weight
of legal opinion expressed in the house., in reference to the
construction of a particular act of Parliament. If the
Muter of the Rolls had been a member and had
been asked to give his opinion on that question,
would it be calculated to secure the high judicial respect
and authority which he ought to hold in the country?
In principle he would go the length of saying that any man
who presided in • court of justice ought to be excluded
from parliament, but as this would have an injurious effect
on the whole bar of England, he did not think it would he
injudicious to carry it out in practice to the full extent. He
made these remarks without the least reference to the pre-
sent Muter of the Rolls, for whom he felt the most un-
feigned respect and regard, hat for the protection of the
high officer who filled the office of Master of the Rolls, as
well as for the good of the people who were interested, an
well in the dignity and estimation in which the judges wets
held, as in the purity of the administration of justice, he
thought that he ought to be excluded from sitting ia that
house. (hear.) lie should, therefore, support the sum'
reading of the bill.
Mr. V. SMITH mid that the whole argument of the
hon. and learned gentleman went to prove the statement of
his noble friend, that this bill, if it was to be, efficient, must
tee )carried further. The Recorder of the city of London
hid given an opinion on the question which had been
raised last night, and decided by the house in opposition to
the weight of legal authority. He ought therefore to move
that that right hon. and learned gentleman should be put
into the schedule of this bill. (Hear, hear.) All other
recorders and chairmen of quarter sessions ought likewise
to be included according to his principle. (lleu, hear.)
The hoe. and learnod gentleman said that the
candidate who sought the suffrages of large con-
stituencies lowered thereby his personal dignity.
He (Mr. V. Smith) never heard a statement in that house
which cast a greater slur on representative institutions.
(Cheers.) He thought that a judge might become a candi-
date and at the same time maintain his personal dignity.
(Hear, hear.) He did net know what the experience of the
hen. and learned gentleman might have been—(cheers)—but
I he knew that the position of a candidate was not the miser-
able situation which the hon. and learned gentleman repre-
sented it to be, and that there was no necessity for a candi-
date to forfeit hes personal dignity.. (Hear, hear.) If the
Master of the Rolla neglected his judicial duty he was sub-
ject to the same cheek that all other judges were subject to,
and if he neglected his duties in parliament that was the
affair of the constituency who elected him, and it was for
them to tell him so. (Hear, hear.) He never heard that
Sir W. Grant neglected his duties as Master of the Rolls or
as a member of that house. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINOTON thought that the case of chairmen
of quarter sessions stood on different grounds from that of
Master of the Mulls. (" Hear, hear, and laughter.) In
the first place the chairmen of quarter melons were not
appointee' by the crown, and they were scarcely recognised
by the law and the constitution of the country. Besides,
the chairman was merely the organ of the assembled magis-
trates. (Hear.) They had excluded by recent acts the
Commiseloners of Bankruptcy and the county court judges
from sitting in the House of Commons. He would support
the second reading.
Mr. EWAIt I. said, that by the constitution of the coun-
try, as it existed in former days, judges might sit in parlia-
ment. Judges sat in the house in 1605, and they were
excluded afterwards solely on the ground that they might
be called en to give their opinion in the House of Lords.
If in recent sets they had proceeded on a different prin-
ciple, end excluded judges, it was rather an CICTIIIMMICe on
the constitution. In the United States judges sat in Con-
gress, and no injury arose in consequence. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not allow the debate to
close without expressing his view of the tendency of the
course which they were called upon to pursue. It was
quite tea that for some years pest the tendency had been
to exclude persons holding offices of a judicial character

tween this country and Russia in the ease of the Vixen—
questions intimately connected with the law of nations—
it would be of great use to the house to have persons (be-
sides the law officers of the crown) posaesetp • certain
degree of weight from their independent Vern, and
likely from their study and knowledge of • law to be
well informed, who could state to them what tic
doctrine of the law of nation was. (Hear, hear.)
They would be deprived of these advantages if the principle
of exclusion were carried so far as was contended. Was it
no advantage in discussing law reforms, to have a person
like the Master of the Rolls, who could tell them from the
eases which came before him what his impression was of
the legislative amendments to be made in the law ? No
person could soberly maintain the opinion that the Master
of the Rolls, because he was a member of the house, would
neglect his judicial functions. If this argument were good,
it was equally good in reference to the members who held
the chief public departments under the crown.
' (Hear, hear.) The honourable and learned gentleman
Thad made the only objection that appeared to
' him to have weight, namely, that it would be
hardly befitting the character of a judge to take
part in the turmoil of a contested election. But this need
' not aecessarily be the case. A particular constituency
might have so much confidence in the person who occupied
the position of Master of the Rolls that they would return
him without any solicitation on his part. Or he might,
like Lord Lyndhurst, be returned by a university, in which
ease the ohjection would not apply. Ile should be sorry to
me the house adopt the course proposed. If the noble lord
slid not prose hie motion, he would not ask a division. Ile
thought that by passing this bill they would be proceeding
in a course which, whilst it showed great distrust of the
people, would deprive !he house of suds men as Lord
Stowell and others, who had sat in that house with great
advantage. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ATIIhRTON supported the second reading on the
ground that they ought to do everything in their power to
maintain the dignity and high character of the judges,
which he thought would be impaired if they were per-
mitted to have seats in that house. Agreeing that they
ought not to restrict the choice of the people, be would con-
fine the exclusion to the judges of the superior courts.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WIiffESIDE thanked his noble friend the author
of the bill for having included Ireland in the schedule, and
expressed his intention of giving his hearty support to the
measure.
Lord HOTHAM, in reply, observed that though from
the array of ministers on the benches opposite he had ex-
pected a strong opposition, he gathered from what fell from
the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) that that opposition would
not be seriously perseverid in. With regard to the objection
of restricting the choice of electors—there must be restric-
tions, and there were restrictions already, and the only
question was whether the restriction he proposed was a pro-
per one ? It was possible the choice of a constituency
might fall upon a most improper person, a partisan judge,
etc a judge who was a strong supporter of the government,
but no one would say t‘!at it would he improper to restrict
their choice in that respect. He admitted the services in
parliament of Sir W. Grant and Sir W. Scott, but sine*
Olen had been a Reform Bill and the principle of popular
election had been so far altered that no one could contend
that what might have been fitting then was equally
so now. And, besides that, the business of the house
since that period had so materially increased that although
a Master of the Rolla might have attended to his path i-
mentary duties in Sir W. Grant's time, it was impossible
be could do so now consistently with
the time and intone
tion he ought to give to the business of his court. They
had already excluded the judge of the ecclesiastical courts,
and the noble lord had concurred in that measure, and it
appeared to him that the reasons for excluding the other
high judicial officers to whom his bill referred were
equally strong. With regard to the noble lord's argu-
ment
that judges sat in the House of Lords, it did Oct '
apply, because the House of Lords was a iadicial tribunal,
wbsch the House of Commons was not. A strong objection
to the admission of the Master of the Rolls was that ho
might, as a judge, be at a moment liable to be called upon
to adjudicate in cases to which his constituents were parties,
end especially iu the local charities of the place
he represented. The noble lord, iu his educational scheme,
had intimated that the government proposed to leave cer-
tain charities to be adjudicated upon by the Vice Chancel-
lors or the Master of the Rolls ; and that alone was, he
' thought, a strong ground for preventing those functionaries
from sitting in the House of Commons. In conclusion, the
noble lord quoted this opinions of Lord Brougham against
allowing persons who eat one day as judges in the courts
Itakimg part on the neat in the turmoil of a contested elec-
tion and that of the late Lord Langdale, who stated dis-
tinctly that the Master of the Rolls ought not to sit in the
House of Commons, but that there was less objection to his
sitting in the House of Lords, though he thought the judi-
cial office was sufficient to occupy the whole of his time and
attention. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to, and the bill was read a
second time, and committed for Wednesday next.
NEW ROSS ELECTION PETITION.
The committee for the trial of this petition was nomi-
nated.
COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITURE BILL.
The house having resolved Walt into committee on this
bill,
On clause 4,
Sir J. PAKINOTON expressed a strong objection to that
part of the clause which went to deprive the magistrates of
that control of the finances of the county which they now
had, and stated that the object he had in view in proposing
the amendment he did when the bill was last in committee,
and the discussion on which was now about to be resumed,
was to preserve to them that power, but to secure
the object of popular representation by adding to
their number certain:persons to bo elected by the
ratepayers in each union to form • county board
for financial purposes. 'rho ratepayers and the magic-1
trates had one common object—via., the economical admi-
nistration of the rates ; and it should be remembered that
none could have a greater interest in such economical ad-
ministration than the magistrates, who were generally the
largest landowners in the county, and consequently the
largest contributors to the rates. It had been argued that'.
if the board were constituted as he suggested, the elected
members of the board would be swamped by the
magistrates or the ex officio members; but it was not so in,
the GPM of the boards of guardians, when the ex officio and
the elected members acted together harmoniously for the
benefit of the ratepayers, and he had no doubt it would be
the same in reference to these county boards. By adopting
his amendment they would avoid the necessity of suer-
fering with many existing acts of parliament and of creating
a new machinery ; and instead of a bill ef 135 clauses,'
which it would be difficult to carry into practical operation,
a simple bill of three clauses would be sufficient.
Mr. BARROW opposed the amendment, which he said
was opposed to the principle on which the bill proceeded,
viz., that taxation and representation should go together.
At present the administration of the county funds was in
the bands of au oligarchy. What he desired was, to put
those who had the control of those funds under the respon-
sibility of the influence of the representative system. The
right hon. gentleman said that the magistrates, being the
largest landowners, had the greatest interest in keeping
down the rates. But who paid the rates, the landowner or
the occupier ? Why, the occupier. ("Nes, no.") True, if
the rates became excessive, the rents—(hear, hear)—might
in the end be regulated accordingly, but there was no power
on the part of the tenant to deduct the county rate
from the landlord', rent. (Hear, hear.) There were in
England 18,700 magistrates, who were es-officio manager.
of the county rates, but of this number only 7,000, or about
one-third, were qualified, how then could it be said that
the tonactry were represented at those boards? There
was no virtual representation as regarded two thirds of the
whole number.
Mr. IL DRUMMOND apprehended all were agreed that
others besides the were to have the control of

_ __... magistrates..
from sitting in that house. It was now proposed to the county funds. (Hear, hear.) At present, those funds
proceed further in this course and when it was pointed wereenanaged byasub-committee of magistrates—he would
out that anomalies would still exist, the hon. and learned proceed on the same principle—but instead of having the
gentleman opposite said that he was prepared to committee nominated by the magistrates, he would have
go still further, and remove the Recorder of the City of it nominated by the ratepayers, each union to re-
Lawton, and establish a total exclusion against all persona turn two members, one a magistrate and the other not a
having &judicial character. Hie first objection to this pro- magistrate. He proposed also, that the general lady of the
posal was that it limited the choice of the constituent body. magistrates should have power to deal with the report
(Hear, hear.) Ho confessed he disliked all those restric. of such committee, which was to be laid before
dons on principle. (Hear.) He did not think it right them the first day of the session, as at present;
that a man otherwise competent should be disqualified from and further, that if the recommendations of the committee
sitting in that house because he might not have the exact should be overruled by the board, there should be an appeal
amount of property required by law. (Hear, hear.) He to the Secretary of State, and that if a small number of the
objected likewise on the same principle to increase the board, say five, disseated from the decision of the mojority,
number of restrictions by which the people at large were they should also have the power of appealing to the same
prevented by law from electing men of eminent ability to authority. This would serve the principle of represents-
represent them. (Hear, hear.). He thought they were tion, and at the same time give the magistrates that control
proceeding against the people in taking a course which which they ought to have. He proposed that the appeal
would restrict them in their choice, and in saying that they should be to the Secretary of State, because he was the
were unfit to declare who were to represent them. In the cause of the whole difficulty, for it was his orders, and not
neat place he thought this coarse would tend to the extravagance and jobbing of the magistrates that occa-
&grade the house. lie thought that having the 'Meted the expense. Were this plan adopted, a bill of three
assistance of eminent men, men who were most quali- clauses (as the right hon. baronet opposite had said) would
fled by their learning and ability to give lustre be sufficient, and they would avoid the cumbrous machinery
to the house, would be of great use, not, perhaps, in re- of the present bill.
spool to any particular question, but in preserving the ge- Mr. V. SMITH coasidered the proposal just submitted
neral authority and dignity of the Commons House of Par- to be an entirely new scheme, and if so, it was
hawing. (Rear, hear.) Many men who sat in the House surely improper to discuss it in committee on the
of Commons while Master of the Rolls were men of great clauses of the present bill. Ile objected to the amend-
ability, and distinguished ornaments of the house. Sir J. merit as being contrary to the principle of the bill.
Jekyll and Sir W. Grant were most distinguished men. lie did not enter iato the feeling of those magistrates who
(Hear, hear.) One of the meet celebrated debates in that said this bill was an imputation upon them. lie believed
house was when Sir W. Grant stood front to front against that the guardians could furnish im.ormation to the magis-
Mr. Fox. A person who heard them mentioned to him traces winch would bo very useful to them, and
that it was one of the most extraordinary displays of Intel- that the y could work well and efficiently toge-
lestaal power and of the philosophy of the law that ever they. One objection had been taken to the bill which
occurred in the house. (Hear, hear.) Lord Lyndhurst sat seemed to be a strong one, and that was that it
in that house while Master of the Rolls, and a remarkable was a bill for particular counties, like Lancashire,
debate: took place at that time, the ability of where it was wanted, and yet it had been applied to the
Mr. Canning, Lord Brougham, and feord Plunket being whole country. lie (Mr. V. Smith) objected to the
ranged on one side, and that of the Muter of the Rolls on remedying of local deficiencies by general legislation. In
the other. (Hear, hear.) Debates of that kind, in which many of the midland counties it would be difficult to get
eminent men took part, tended to maintain the character ratepayers to act on the Financial Boards. lie was, there-
of the house, and electors should not be restrained from fore, glad to bear his noble friend (Lord Palmerston) express
electing men who ars re capable of displaying such qualifl- a wish that the adoption of the bill should be optional, and
cations. lie might remark also en the present occasion, that it should be left to the counties which did not desire
, that the House of Commons was increasing in power and any interference with their present li &eclat boards to adopt
i influence, while the other house of parliament bad infused its provisons or not IP they ',lessee Ile hoped such an
into it great weight of learning and ability, without any option would be allowed by the bill.
corresponding increase of power and influence. Ile thought Mr. PHILIPPS, as connected with Wales, wished to
that this great contrast between the power and influence of state a difficulty which would arise in its working there. In
1 one house, and the learning and high station of the other, several counties—Pembrokubire, fur instance—in South
was a contrast which ought nit to be kept up. (Hear, Wales, by local act, the administration of the county Rolls
hear.) Besides questions might arise in which the Court was entrusted to a beard consisting of In members,
opinion of men of this kind would be of great use. while in the preseut bill the board was limited to 1.1. Now,
Mr. Pitt said that he should not like to sit with the former camber of members he had found a diffi-
here as first minister of the Crown without cult in getting a board together at all, so that it was ad-
having men qualified to give an opinion on the visa le to ascertain whether the 'poem proposed by the bill
kw 01 "tone It Wl. on this ground that he mainly wall work in carrying on the flaancial administration of
rest, il his objection to the bill which excluded the Judge of the affairs of counties.
the Court of Admiralty from that house. Supposing that Mr. M. GIBSON said that the speeches which had been
qatri.,na were to arise such as hail arisen between this • made had been directed rather against the general prim-
, innintry and France in Cue case of 31r. Pritchard, awl be- eipie of the bill than in relation to tles +unclad-