The Express.
London, England, 1849-06-20 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 20, 1849.

we--
outbid evenieg. It war contrary to hie usual practice to
take mach vert in their 1, reiships d. bates, but he telt lm-
...di/1 booed to oppose the WI. He attached no impert-
giter—to hivoloas objections. He quite admitted the talent and
00, ability of the noble earl opposite (Earl Orgy), hut it
fsemed to biro (Lord Lyn Shunt) that the noble earl had
prrresd,huugh the se viral else*, sof she bill. The Roble
did sot go so far es to say that rebels were to he
ptsseyd for their rebellious acts, bat he did *ay that eon-
•j weld be &wade 1 fur all unjust, unnecessary, or
peoo
;bps acts cemerts 4 during the rebellion, and f. r all
Mss sits arced eluting the rebellion—tor the seizure
red timing away Or 4(0.1114. or other injury to pet ptrty.
ware was also a clou'e for the oompeasatim of persons
*boa premiers had been occupied, during the rebellion, by
beau& or military torus of her Majesty. The noble earl
gbeserel those chases in the former act, and copied them
bp this bill. But, n dwithstanding those clauses, there was
ae doubt that the pastors engaged in the la • rebellion would
be /stilled to receive ample compsnsiti en if th. it lordships
buoyed of the bill in its prisent shape. (Load cries of
heir," from Lord Brougham.) He was a, pubes
pee of tr. uhling the house too much—(No, no)—by going
bilker Into the details. (No.) There was, however,
mother class of persons who would come wit' in the opera-
tion of the bill it it beetme an act of parliament. [L rd
pisegham here whispered the noble and 1-ansed speaker.]
As his noble and I. amid fri nd merest d to him, the noble
mil stated it would be most difficult to ascertain who had
taken pert In the rebellion. Now, with respect to 104 per-
sons who had been outlawed far trot art, there could be no
suc.h difficulty as the noble earl apprehends I. The regarded
the outlawry of those several persons coal lbe easily N.
lured to. If it was not in:eaded that they should be ow
titled to comps 'ration for any losses they sustaised by rep
son of the.r own rebellious acts, whets was the dielculty
Ores:owing al doubts upon the subject by expressly ex-
cepting teem from the operatian of the bill? They had
(~,failed their g-ods and chattels by being outlawed, end it
there wa no intention to compensate Item for those its es,
whet objection was there so state that aptc.fically in the bill
itsek ? (llear, hear. lie would therefore pat it to their
lordships to consider seriously whether they were prepared
to sanction such a measure. Unless Castada was to
bs considered an independent stets he thought
it was the i'uty of the house to interfere
for the perms of preventing such a m. slurs becoming
law. It had been stated in another piece, that if the
commission could be issued by the crown, instructions
could be batted by the crown ; but, this would bi al
commission issued under the authority of parliament,
and no person could Interfere with it. The set of parlia
men' could not be qualified by any instructiore of the Oa-
Tensor Get era', or icy directions to the enamissioners.
In
the Canadian debates upon the bill, Mr. Baldwin, the
Anon- 1-Osne rah was represented to have 4:pronely stated
that it was not intended to ecrepensete rebels for their losses.
If it really was iii,ended that they should not come within
the operation of the measure, why was it not so provided?
There was no such intention. It was pufeetty idle to argue
the question, for there could be scarcely a doubt that the bill
was sassed with that view. (User, hear.) Mr. Lafontaine
was pressed, over and over again, while the bill was in pro.
rise, to state west the real intention was, and no eatis emery
opinion could be obmiced from him on the subject. If their
lordships did not wow moan that retools should be canape-
sated why sot have them explicitly excepted in the bill ? 11;they
objected to the amendinect, it might be modified, or put in
some other form, so as to obviate the natural and reasonable
objections to the bill ; bat, undoubtedly, the subject was de.
serving of their I ordships' most orrice. consiteration. The
noble earl asked how it would be possible to identify persons
engaged In the rebellion. Nothing
.wal more simple. The
commissioner' were appointed to Ind sir into the chins ;
could tits y not be empowered to receive evidence of
the aureate of the par i.e pnf. et iog and
that they Amid be ?ejected if they were proved to have
bees implicated in the robe-Hies the noble earl said the
parties cult' not bs examined) themselves ; but it should be
remarked here that the Amway Act had acquitted them all.
The coca elarriewers could Maine epos oath, and if they
were not seti•llid that the parties had not been engaged in
the rebellion, why should sot the bill emirs Ply din et them
to reject the elaime of all such parties? Though the cunt.
missioners, who were to determine eves; claim, might nut.
is every ale, be able to rip rtain whether a semen was en
gaged la the rebelliin, Ihs y could in the great majority of
instance., at all events, be able to Aim a pretty crirrent
opinion. And if they entertained any doubt upon the sot-
), et, they would, a emir, according to the univend
principle, Five the eleisant the benefit of it. There was
nether p in: to which be wished to advert. la the preamble
of the bid it spoe stated that its object was to compensate all
"jest" this. fa WWI proved to have been occasioned fey
the Telballiln. Sash words were not sufficient to disentitle
rebels from a psrtisipati,ll in the beard,' which would be
ntelferte,l seder the hill, and it was irapcsaihle for say one ,o
rove that it could be so. it claims preferred by rebels were
he be considered " unjust." and that they ware not to be in
eluded in the operation of the aisesure, why rot state it ex-
ripely ? Every one at all timelier with acts of portholes/at,
knew that an express exception tit:iodise rebels was &ea
Intel; necessary, if it was intended that they dissaid
be exclad.d. Thi ir letdships• comes was quite Wear.
If this bell was rejected, a' other—an mended one—might
be intredueed and the royal assent given to It. The law
(Awn of the crown in Canade and the OtsVlreer-General
@epee/sly stated there was so intention to compiles its rebels.
That should he pialaly stated, otherwise they would be cam-
peneated and have equal advantages with Weal subjects. If
a hill c, iristeei eials site intentions of the parties
Were istrwlue:a, It would so doubt meet with fair
consideration and be paned. Tnis bII did not correspond
with the intentions of the petits, and why should different
provisions be introduced ? Ile had to apologise to their lord-
alp fur troubling Or at so much. (No, no.) It might be
the last occasion epee. which he should do so, hut as ho had
bail the honour of hulling a high office undes the Coteau
government, and entertained a decid..t conviction 74 to the'
mischievous t nit r.cy of the bi!l, which hs cos side red in
culling not only to the empire hut to the sovereign, he
thought he should he disregarding the imperative 'uty cast
upon him if he hail remained silent upon the subject.
Lord CAMPBELL raid the code and learned lor 1 who
had just sat down seemed to have forgotten that this bid was
now in operation. It had received the as ef the axe
cutive of Canada, and was the law of the lend there. Its
opt r teen could be Bunn pled only by. the direct interference
of the imperial pirlisment—by their die 'Bowing the bill
and altogether annulling what had been formally done by
the legialsture of that country. He should coerces he had
heard with extreme pain the sprech of his noble and learned
friend, who he h. pest bed returned to his olden opinions.
He was old enough to remember well when his noble and
learned blend (Lad Lynelherst) was a staunch liberal—
(laughter, cheers, and cries of " order")—and when he would
be found 'utterly supporting such a measure as that. But
the noble mat learned lord took another turn. (Mention,
question.) He had not only supported the ennacipatieu of
the Bataan catholies—(Laughter and loud nits of " QUI
tins.') lie was speaking to the question, and about to show
their lordehins the otOftsee—(interruption and calls for
" order.") But, without proceeding upon that point fur-
ther,—(bear) —pulpit s his noble and leaned friend thought
of the Pesach p tpulation of Canada as he bad of the
inhabitants of another perils of these realms. That they
avers aliens is blood-06es of "Order" and general int' r.
niptionj—ia language, and in relights. ("Oh, eh," and
loud cries Of "Older" and " Clat Pion.") Yu, his noble
sad learned friend might have thought so, for " Oa reek&
t011)0,111 a vies premiere .moon"—(The remainder of the
sentence was inaudible) He agreed entirely with
his learned friend, that the construction to be put
upon the bill should be expressed in it plainly. the
me, dent for it in the other act was just as much open to
objection as this. The commissiouers to be appointed were to
be governed by the words of the preamble. and they were in-
structs.' that compensation should be allowed for just louts
only The ques•l n w a., whether a man should be called on to
show that he had been a loyal subject, or whether it ihotild
be left to thou who resisted the claim to show that he had
been guilty of treason. It would be most unjust to impose
• condition en a man to prove that bc heel b.en a loyal
*abject. What was to be the nature of the proc.eding ?
What witnesses Was he to call ? How was he to stake out
that he was • loyal subtlest? It would be most unfair and
mist unjust. Thee it was mid that there must be an oppor
soapy twee to prove that he had been disloyal, and that
was the rent quer lost which the Canadian parliament had to
determine, and which by tee bill of the Comedian parliament
was now brou ht before the house. I. when a person came
far compersition for his lows laving been besot, it was to
be proved that twelve yeses he'ote he was dieloval, whi.th
we* the effect of Mr. Wilson's amendment, folios quoti4ta
there will have been a trial for tells treason, it would lead
to interminsbie inquiry and the grossest injustice. This
bill mere gave to Lower Car ada the an
which had beets given to Upper Canada; it made no
invidious distinction between' the two provinces. For thus
reasons he hoped their lordships would he of opinion that the
sanction given to this act by the representative of the
crown ought not to be interfered with, but that most dap
genus fosse-queens would result Irma the iuterference of
parliament on this 0111111101 A.
Lord STANLEY gave credit to the etstrvatke of the
noble and bused lord at the Cufeinftemsent of his speech,
thet he was *bout to reply to a speech t which he had ;is.
treed with eat house but be must sayhimself, and foe
the rest of the , not erupting noble lords oppo
site, that they listened to the able and poser:al speech
of the noble and learned leed (Lord Lyndhurst) with
feelings et admiration for the power of lonelier which
he displayed, i.r the undiminished clearness of his
totalle tt, and the fares with which he p
with the argument before him. which, while it she 'bet
cgs fad in no degree Sepals it the vigour of his poem%
added t the regret which all must feel at the annouccement
which he had made that he intended seldom, if ever Plot
to oceupy their lordships' atteatioo. He should have thought,
howsver, that if there was ono feeling which it was Impos-
e hie for any one to palettes atter hearing the speech of
the sable and learned lord, it was a belies to lead any
One to easy. r such a speech by an unworthy
taunt. (Hear.) He noble friend's high position sod long
experience, lets high thane er, his distinguished and emiteat
ah.litit• might hay. rested Dim, in the decline of his year*,
from any oath unworthy taunt. His en'ele and learned
fri. ad (L m 1 Calspbc.l) heel t thought it beneath kit
on such an oceadon to addition such lsngusge to such a man;
if the noble and learned hod had listened with pain to the
stile statement of his noble and leareei friend, be wee sue
that there wits no one who had not listened with deeper
p lo to the noble and leaved lord's own statement; and
he must code s. with all respect to the noble and
h need lord, that his ease was on * par with
his argument. Before he addressed himself to
the particular eircumatences of this ease, he must
advert to one or two topics adverted to by the noble earl
with regard to the a xerciu of power, by the iniaisten of
the crows, over the advisers of the colonial governor I.
eolety in which responsible government had been introdayed.
By rtsponsiMe government he meant the peen/meet of a
party; and whit he hid seen had not tended to Asko or

alter the opinion that government by • party was
by. no means likely to contribute to the good ad.
=migration or successful management of affairs; bet
he freckly admitted that party goviromsnt having been
iattoduced into Canada, whatever might have ban
his a priori impressions or the impressions of any other Se-
cretary of State, he w. bound, u far at he could, to give
effect to the responsible system of government. It
might be asked how ware local self-government end the
authority of the crown to be made to act together. If both
were pushed to au extreme, it was impossible. Local self-
government, entire and without exception, excluded the an.
thority of the crown, as the absolute authority of the crown
would exclude heal telflovernment. The only difficulty as
applied to responsible government was to state the oceasioue
and to form a judgmt at of the nature of the questions on
which it was puldie, wise, and expedient for the introduction
of the authority of the crown through the Secretary of State.
But if it were laid down that en no occasion ought that au-
thority to be interposed, end that • bill which had received
the sanction of the local legislature was theretere
agesseatily to pass, then the constitution of Canada, far
from being the cocuitution of this country, or anything'',
approaching to it, was • constitution infla.itely more demo-
critic, more shecilutt Iv and purely democratic, than that of I
the United States. (Hear, hear.) If the principle were laid
down that the prime minister was to advise the governor on
every question, and that his advice wee to be imp icitly fol-
lowed—that he, being a man who had the full control of
the local House et Assembly, was to advise the crown on all
questions, incladieg the appointment of members to fill the
leteislative council—the result of such a system would be to
subject the legislative council, the governor, the crown ititlf,
to the one icdontlual who, for the time being, =apposed to
have, and was prepared to make an unscrupulous use of, hi 1
influence in the Hoes, of Assembly. (Hear.) The noble earl
((trey) admitted that there might be occasions on which it was
right that the crown should interfere and exercise its autho-
rity i the question was, what sons the nature and char=
ter of those occasions, end wan this one? (Hear, hear.)
The noble earl tint appealed to their generosity, and said
they oughts east oblivi .11 over everything that had occurred
before. He entirely concurred in that policy ; but though,
as the noble earl had observed, it was
were out in the Scotch rebellion Ia 1745, yet no measure had
ever been I. rought in for compensating thou who were out
for the lasts they had sustained from the vi dente of the ,
king's tmops, in suppressing the rebellion of which they had
been the instigators. Had such compensation been proposed
in 1760, would any one have said there was injustice, imece
lig, hardship, or cruelty, in asking the claimants what they
were doing at the time, and how they happened to come by
these lows? (Hoer, hear) That was the cue now before
their lordships. It was precisely beaniee they thought that
We bill did give encouragement to rebellion, and re-
worded it at the cost of thou who had put it down and
had snared in their persons and property, because
Bombed upon them to cdnpensate unconvic ed rebels, be-
anw it encouraged sad gave a premium to rebellion, that
they joined ',mete with tee noble earl on that print. (Hear,
hear) lie must now shortly refer to the history of the hills
that had been introduced, for giving c ompensetion ; and he
Ile be able to show that at no time had the object of the
ritun
of Upper Canada b, en to compensate rebels ; our
believe that rebels had been compensated under
Alum The first act passed by the parliament of Upper
Camila before the union, recited that certain inhabimets
(not using the espressioa " loyal iohabitante") had sus-
tained much loss and damage by the destruction of their
dwellings and other buildings by the rebels; and thereto.
it author-hod inquiry into the 1 este so sustained. A com-
mission having been formed, to inquire into the merits of
each specific case, and to autnorise the amount of compensa-
tion
to be granted, a bill was passed in the following year,
. vending the previsions of the former act to lo see
sustained similarly, but 'II cons, quence of the =bile=
which heel occurred subsequently to the passing of the former
act. la 1839 a bil was passed by the p aliment of Lipper
Canada, which provided for the payment of all just claims
arising out of the late rebellion and nominal, ineluiing not
only lases sustained by the rebels, but by the invaders and
sympathisers from the United States. It was unneensary in
that act to use lb. words " loyal so' jrctr," as the acts re-
ferred to the lows sustained from rebels and from the Met-
ric in invaders and sympathisers. That ect was disallowed
by the goitre meet at home, because It provided Far the pay-
ment out of British, end nut out of Canadian foods. In the
meowing year molter act, obviating that inconvenience,
was passed ; but, owing to financial difficulties, it hod never
come into prectitel operation. The preamble of the act suf-
ficiently showed what was the intention of helium, re It stated I
that.—" Whereat during the late unnaturel =held ,n, and in
the several hostile invamit es and lawless aggressims on this
province, at various points, by fortignere and others from the
United bootee o' America, divers inhabitants of this province
sustained much lose and damage by the destruction of their
dwellings and other builOinge, and by the wise= and carry
tog away of their property by Mods, inwleis, and others •
sa
and whereas the .dinteabitants have ementally cooteiboted
to the effectual drones of the province, by capturing many of
the rebels and invaders, by advancing money, and by sup I
plying meat, drink, arms, accoutrements,, Ac , and by pet-
tormieo many importut services in various ways, fur which
they have not been hitherto paid et satisfied, sad their
claims end demands are rill outstanding; and when.. it is
jut' lad expedient that a'l such claims and demands should
be paid and satisfied ; then fore, be it enacted, that this can
minion be appointed to inquire into and unity such claims."
An get had been a übsequeutly pasted, e xtendlaq
the provisions of the former not not only to
the lowa elllegille,l at the banes of the rebel.,
invaders, and ',nap %goers, but also to those sus-
tained by the destruction or damage of prep( sty occasioned
' by violence on the pot of persons in her Majeoe's service,
or persons assuming to set on the part of her Majesty, aleo
by the oecupsii..n of houses by her Majes'y's forces. That
act was prsed in 1811, but, like the former one, it never
come into practice' operation ; ...a it war not tin 18 it, ream
he had the honour of balling the sods of the colonial depot-
mesas, that Lord Metcalfe had Fretted up a him the extetroe 1
hardship to persons who e claims under these sets were still
unsatisfied, and had pointed out the difficulty of obtaining I
from the unit, d lepialatures a sanction of the compensation
to the extent he designed to make it. He (LIN Stanley)
was fortunate enough to suggest a course which was a'tcr-
wards
adopted—the imposition of • err:ll3 tax throughout
the municipeliti: ain both Upper as d Lower Canada. A
subsequent inquiry took place, with the view of extending
the provisimos of that set ; but it wes put • ttop to, not
because the whole of the claims were satisfied, but
because Lord Sydenham found it nteessery to stop the
inquiry on account of the fitiantiel state of the province.
Be would now st is to the house a case which cccured in
Upper Canada, and which was not provided for by the exist-
ing law. It was the rase of Mr. Isaac Smith, and was coo-
ounce in the statement of Sir R. Jackson. He was a manof '
undoubted loyalty, in a part el the country where disaffection
generally prevailed ; and on lacing told that his property af-
forded shelter to the rebels, teem which they cool I fi-e on
tkeQueen's troops, he eons, flied to its destruction. It was de-
stroyed ; and on the cam bring reported by Col. Taylor, he
received the sp. clel thanks of the Command, r-
in-Chief. But he could not be included nadir any of the
two former bills, and compensetion was refused in that cue,
because the destruction of the property was consented to,
for the purpose of assisting her Majesty's troop.
With regard to the pb logy of the act, be would
observe that under its terms nous but "just losses" were
to be compensated. Now, under the tern,; " just
been," were all penal' who were notorious rebes excluded
from compensation ? If so, ho would ask what was the
meaning of the proviso which specially and by name es-
t:Meet certain portico Us would ask his noble and learned
friend opposite whether be would say as a lawyer that
the 104 persero w o were outlawed, and the 350 who were
taken with arms in their hands would ba excluded ? (Hear.)
Would his noble sod learned friend show him the terms of
the set which exclu b d these persons, or would he &tont the
statement which ~.J luso so well put by has noble and
learned fiiend near, that all those who were not specially
excluded would b' entitled to receive compensation. ( Hese.)
But in order to know what just lanes were they must inquire,
and yet, noble and learned lords opposite protested against
the monstrous principle, as they said, of raking up old
grievances. (Hear, hear.) By the bill as at stood
1 they must Ego ute inquiries an I in= stioate the
circumstances under which the lases were sustained. Sup-
I pose the case of a pm= claiming compensation for the leo@
of a market; they mug necessarily inqulre how he lost it.
" Where were you whe , y a lost it?" would be the coos
lion. " Why, oenternen, I wasn't at house." " But whine
did you Its it, aced under what circumstances ?" " Why, I
was standing with a me of my fellow.countremen, in closer
proximity than 1 thought was cemfor able to the Queen's
troops, and I three( away my musket, and now 1 want eons 1
palmation for it "
Lyra CAMPBELL—That would not be a great loos.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY—But then they must inquire. (Cheers )
The noble. and 'rano d lord asked if they were going to in-
stitute two or three hundred tritli for high treason. Now,
this would not be *case of trial foe high tnseou, but the case
of a man coming forward to substantiate a claim against the
government. (Hear, bear.) And surely in that
ere the government had a right, and was baund
M know, the nature of the clam. (Cheers.) About
tea days before he was compelled to leave the post
which he had occupied with such honour to himself, and
advantage to the crown, Lord Metealte Issued a commission
" Pee inquiring situ the looses sustained by her Majesty's
loyal subjects in that pot of the province of Canada which
formerly oonsti.utt d tete province et Lower Canada during the
late unnatural fe'l, boo.' Lord Metcalfe was not afraid to
call things by their right names; he did not shriek from
speaking of tee " wingers' rehellioe." He did not wish to
impute any blame to the noble lad who succeeded him ;
bat it was remarkable that en the 12th of December, only
two days alter the issuing of this dispatch, there came an in-
struction to the erommiesionere, Closed by the Secretary
Daly, which milks et inquiries "into the losses sustained by
her !fajesty's subject'," not "loyal subjects," during not
the uanatiand rebellion," tat o the unhappy owing in
Lower Canada." (Hear, hear.) Though the re was a suffi-
cient variation in the language used immediately after the
steady hand of Lair I Metcelte was removed, yet he heard
there was no ist,naion to limit the extension under that
sommixdoo to persons who bed meta dly been convicted. The
language need by Lewd Elaties advisers in the diecutOons
satigied him (Lord Stanley) that the noble lord
opposite erred in supposing that it was not
at that time the intention of the ministry of Lord Elgin, to
recommend the compensation of rebels. In the course of
this discussion, Mr. Cameron said he trusted there would be
loystar. cham aerutiny as to were and
ne who were not
al • and Mr.ber Drummond, the whosoli citor-ee ral, after ray-
ing that he hoped the decision of the court-martinis would
be reversed, ft was "no bushiest of the house to say who
Were guilty of high Mime; the Act of Idemnity had done
away with all that ; in technical language, the persons
pardoned were in ire same position as before." Bony
ministers went so far as to &had the rebellion itself as •
jest and peeper resistance of arbitrary power, and one gentle-
man, ibe president of the .onntil, actually road in the

small stinerity—no, Its was not aura whether ha actually
voted.
-

Lord LYNDHURfir.—He said he should have voted.
Lord STANLEY—He expressed his conviction that the
exclusion of those who had been convicted and t animated as
Laken was improper. He (Lord Stanley) thought he had now
sufficiently shown that it was the intention of the ministry of
Lord Elgin to compensate persons who had notoriously been
engaged in the rebellion. The question which their kr&
ships had to decide was, whether they would anent to a
bill which, instead of throwing oil on the troubled waters,
as stated by the noble lord opposite, insulted every lord
inhabitant of the province, and taxed them for the benefit
of rams. (Hear, Mar.)
Lord CAMPBELL, in explanation, observed that be
intended to say that there ought not to be an inquiry
into each individual case, but that it would be the du, of
the commissioner, to inquire, and for them to say whether
the loss was a just lose or not.
Eul ST. GERMANS opposed the motion.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE felt it necessary to mike
a few re eke in order to illliftei upon their tort:Wipe the
importance which be attached to this subject. Their lord-
ships were here called upon to show +nether the constitution
which the imperial legislature had given to Canada was a
substance or a shadow. (Hear, hear.) When a e deny hod
attained the growth which the parent state considered as en
titling it to the posses ion of a mit gave:mill
coestitutioe, it was no loeger to be tutted as
though it were still in leading strings. (Hear )
The noble and learned lord opposite (Lyndhurst) had
throughout his speech assumed the whole questi in in dis-
pute, designating the measure before them as a Rewarding
Bill for Rebels. Now he denied the% it was a Rewarding
Bill for Rebels, or a rewarding bill at all. Hauls, sie far
from being rewarded under the bill, were distinctly ex
eluded from the compensation it contemploted to person-
entitled to compensation. If the Canadian Assembly did not
represent the people of Canada. what did? Did theme woo
burned down the Assembly-house represent them ? (Hear.)
L-rd Elgin hod coulee out his government in a strictly cons
a itutional manner; and if we were now to accuse the Fu soh
Canadians of disloyalty or non loyalty we would be going a
considerable way towards destroy ng the colonial influence of
this country abroad. He was for continuing the present
government in Canada—a government is which the English
and French were happily amalgamated. He fu'ly admitted
the evil of a tyrant majority ; but he thought the noble so d
keened mover of the present resolution was unhappy in his
allusions to Mr. Pitt with reference to that suuject. He
also admit ell that the bill in the present instance
might have been more carefully and efficiently
worded, but was that a ground for violating
the constitution given to Canada? lie hoped the vote of
that night would he most carefully considered; for the result
would to tr♦ ry important. Their lordships were called up •14
to tote in direct opposition to the House of Cm:limns, the
Canadian legislature, and Lord Elgin, but he smears ly
hoped:that such &decision as that was not now to be recorded
Lord BROUGHAM briefly replied. He contended that
the discussion showed clearly that the interference of the
house was oarticularly calla for in the present ease. He
still was of opinion ttat the bill would recompense
rebels and not loyal men. With regard to Mr. Lafon-
taine, the noble and learned lord repeated his belief that
Mr. Lafontaine was in this country in consequence of a war-
rant having been issued against Lim in Canada, and that
afterwards, to avoid that warrant, he:went over to France.
He had, it was true, presented a peal At from Mr. Loko.
Caine while he war in this country, but he bed never evinced
any particular sympathy for lice.
Earl GREY believed he was quite correct in stating that no
warrant had ever been out against Mr. Lafor.tainee Of this
there could be no doubt that he returned to Canada who n
the rebellion was over without receiving any indemnity. It
he remernheired rightly, the noble and learned lord had,
when Mr. Letontaine was here, expressed his sympathy fur
him and Lie cause. I" Hear," and a laugh.)
Their lordship s then divided—.
ClAt 2ntt—Pii.e4t
Proxies
Non-oontents—Pres us
Proxies

Majority in favour of govarnmant
The h.use adjourned at a quarter past 2 o'rdosk.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tussmy, Ju9'l9.
The SYZAKU took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
_ . .

- - -----___
SECOND READlNO.—Borough of Louth and Free
Grammar School in Louth Bill.
REPORTS CON iIDEItED. Lancaster and Preston
Junction Balers? Acts Amendment (porters to alter tolls,
noel f r apooin meat o' officers) Bill.
LOMAS' AMENDMENTS CONSIDERED.— Lindon
GAS Light Cusapway (an Ldment of act) BIS.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
BAIIIIREPTCY LAW CONSOLIDATION BILL. —By Mr.
CARDWELL, from the Lverp of Guardian 13 iciety ; Mr
HENRY, from merchants and traders of Liverpool, in
favour of this bill.
PAUPER CHILDREN.—By Mr. SANDARS, from poor-
law guardians of en union In Yorkshire, for the better edu-
cating of pauper children.
ATTORNEY CERTIVIcATE DCTY.—By Mr. O. BERKE-
LEY, from &Conine f Cheltenham; Ber E. N. BUXTON,
from ttomturd, for v p al of the certificate duty.
Lunatic Asst.' Ms I ScuTLAND) LILL—By Lord MEL-
OUND, Iron Orteneek, against this bill.
I'ARLIAMENTARY AND FINANCIAL 8R101114.—81 Sir J.
WALMELEY, from 440 ratepayers of the parish et Cite-
kenwell, with the addrefs of each perwm ctich .A,e( mplain-
ing el the inevss d burdens of taxation, living their b. lir f
tha• the government of the coun'ry was earrieu on with at
least equal ifficicacy in 1835, at a cost of ten millions len
than at present; that unjuat taxation, and many othe-r na-
tional abysm, arise out of the denial of the people's admitted
eoustitutiona right to be self taxed ; that in equi, the
franchise should be extended to entry adult male, end pro
meted by the ballot ; that economy in the public t xpenditure,
and general good government, will not be attainad without
them, reforms; aid praying that the house will take
early um:urn fur their adoption.
HEALTH OP TOWNS (lartanD).—By Mr. REYNOLDS.
from perishes in Dublin, for en efficient health of towns bill
fur
•

•••• •••--.
NEWOATI GAOL fDtrst.ri) —By Mr. REYNOLDS and
Mr. J. O'CONNELL, from °Meets of this gaol, for prlarr
compensation.
SUPERANNUATION ALLOWANCES FOR Poole-LAW OM.
C111:4 —By Mr. LASCBLLES, from officers .1' the Easing-
' weld Union, In favour of this proposition.
CotNTT Comm.—By Mr. W. FATTEN, from Cobe,
Lancam ire, lot sr ctriau cf the jurisdit lima of County courts.
Pools RATES.—By. Mr. G. ROBINSON, from Lynn,
complaining of the intolerable pressure of poor rates, and
praying for the adepti in of a unif.rin rate.
Pouts Laws.—By Mr. BODGES, from a place in Kent,
for the alteration of Ouse laws.
MARRIAGES BILL —By Mr. F. MAULE, several peti-
tines from enneeportiors of free evirches ; Mr. BOUM-
DELL PALMER, trees some places in Essex ; against

V.ds bill.
81:NDAT TRADING BILL —By Sir B. BUXTON, from
tratiesmen aad oth, r inhshitants oft he ilbes of Christ
Churel, Spitalflelds • St. John's (2), S. Matthias, S,. Jude's,
and St. Matthew, Mile-end New Town (2),
Norton Folga•e and Otd Artillery-grouud, and SL huts's,
Chelsea ; is favour of this bid.

STIRLING AND DUNFERMLINE RAILWAY. ' !
Oa the motion Lr the cousiieraion of the report on Ibis
bill,
Mr. NEWDEGATE moved that the bill should be n-
ear wi ted te toe former committee, with leave to sit and
proeet d n w. day. The around was, that a clause had been
admitted under mis.ppn het.sion as to its effect.
Mr. W. PAT tEN thought some further explanation
nee way.
Mr. LASCELLES, tl'e cbairmsn of the ommitte,, said
that though the clause had been bei...re them, they had not
given a distinct consideration to it.
The motion .1114 then &aced to.
HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY.
Mr. GLADSTONE postponed, till the 6th of July, his i
motim on tiv state of this composny. I
BRITISH GUIANA. I
Mr. HUME porpentil, till the 6th of July, his 'notice on ,
the state of this colony.
OFFICIAL DISPATCHES.
Mr. ANSTEY in:jawed thd, on the dot supply night, I
he would move an amendment to the matLn for going 1100 I
committee, relating to the substitution by ministers of pri•
vats letters in the place of (Saul dispatches.
EXTENSION OF THE SUFFRAGE.
Sir D. L. EVANS postponed his motion relative to the
extension of the suffrage till the 6th of July.
TRANSPORTATION FOR TREASON BILL.
Mr. ANSTEY, in committee on the bill, to move the
omhelnn o' the words " transportation for life or a term of
ye•rs," nn4 the substitution of the words " imprisonment
i daring the Clown's plewnire."

discus.i xe of which it was desirable to bare u lime an
att..ndance as pl.eible of gen•lemen conversant with the
working of the poor law. There null/ be no objection,
after there had be en an evening sitting, for the minor clauses
of the hilt to be cer ridrired at a morning sitting; he, there-
fore, hoped the huhle lord would alter bar intention of going
into committee on the bi:l on Thursday at, rnitir near.
Lord J RUSSELL said he should be anxious to make the
arrangement that would be most convenient. He would,
therefe re, propose to go i .to committee on toe bill an Mon-
day evening next, and proceed with the remaining clauses at
12 o'clock on Tuesday. He would therefore moss that the
order of the day for the Thursday morning's sitting be dis-
ebarged.—A.reed to.
LEASEHOLD TENURE OF LANDS (IRELAND)

BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the first reading of this bill,
which bad Jost been brought down front the otLer house.—
Agreed to.

VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
The Earl of LINCOLN said he had placed tie: motion of
which he had teen mote meths book with vet y great regret.
He had hoped, after the discussion of Int year, after the
effect produced by the speech of the right hon. member for the
Ur iversity of Oil ed (Mr. Gladstone), and seer the pro
specie held out by the goys rnment, that this most fatal mea-
sure as regarded that part of the dominions of Great Britain
would have been withdrawn. Strengly feeling, as he did,
the culrebil ty of the transaction, he had been unwilling to
press it on the attention of the house ; he bad helped same
m -ant might have been found of getting rid of the difficulty;
that he charter might have been prave4 to have been in-
formal, and in that case the government would probably have
been induced to revoke what bad been dose and to adept a
very differ. sat and more satisfactory course. It war
manly nee, teary that he should disclaim any hostility
to the Hudson's Bay Company, many of whom were
his personal friends, and for all of whom he entertained a
Sincere respect. He wou'd not meet that this company was
w. oily mai- to carry on colonisation ; but, to far as the ex-
pentnee of this country bed gane, colenisatien by etc ntee
propritto-s had wholly failed. On this gumeion, be must
necessarily refer to the great colonies now eonstimting the
United States of America. Public attention had recently
been drawn to the subject by the highly interesting work of
the hon. and learned member for Sheffield, and to Mr. Bon-
croft's equally interentine "• History of America." Fr. -m
both those works it was clear, if not that all cempani'a were
unfit for colonisation, at any rate that all absentee pro-
prietors wer unfit for it. The colony of Virginia was first
wunted in 11.06, by a company of noblemen, merchants, and
r ntlemen, restdent iu Lomita. A fairer example, an expe-
riment mare likely to succeed, if inch a system could itaire
suns e led, could hardly be suppesed. They were men of high
cta'acter, wealth, and intelligence, sad with ample means
of carrying out their object. Yet, so bad was the mar age-
m y.t of the company, that Mr. Bancroft considered that the
influence of the crown was the coly thing which =inter-
ned its evil effi c's. The colony presented a series of fail-
ures: it struggled on fur 12 yeas under thin management,
and there were then not more than 600 persons ire it ; but
after a charge of system, in one year 1,260 persona emigrated
thither. In 1624, the system having failed, the patent was
withdrawn and the company dissolved. The next attempt
at colonising by a comp.ny was that of Maanchusetts, rn
1629, which was almost a copy of the history of Virginia.
Ere ntually, the company under whose management it was
entgrateu tam London thither; he would recommend the
Hudson's Bay Company to fell ow their example, and go to
Vancouver's Island, and then there would be same chard
for its prosperity. Similar instances were found in
North Carolina and Pennsylvania, while the proprie-
tary were absent. On the other hand, in New
Englend, and other colonies, which were formed
on a different principle, prosperity had dated from
ne very infancy of tho cal-coy. They thurishi d
exactly in jp, °portion as they adopted free institutions,
and were celo-ise'd by par les who went to reside there;
while failure was the certain result of those colonies estab-
lished by proprietors in London, which only began to ffour.sh
when, owing to the signed failure e f the attempt, the eon
minim had kern broken up. Hence he was justified in Say-
ing that such companies were substantially unfit tither to
felted or govern colonies. If there was to be a etipervesirg
poser at all, it ought to be the imperial government, and
not the delegated authority of 'company. (Hear.) In supp .rt
of this principle, he might adduce a statement of the
Lion. the Under Secretary for the Colonies, who, last
year had, yenned to the failure of South Australia under
is original management, and the removal of its embarress-
nitnti when the Colonial-office resumed the government of it.
IIAWES —When the debts were paid.
The Earl of LINCOLN said his decided impression was,
that the hon. sp ntleman had contrasted the state of the co-
Way when governed ley the Colonial-office with its condition
when governed by a proprietary company, and had endea.
seared to prove that the payment of debts alluded to had bee a
greatly promn'ed by the change in the se stem of government
Tree tem pany of New Zealand did not pores% governmental
powers except as regarded the management and sale of laud.
It had been said on a former occasion that government saved
a gnat expense by giving this charter to the Hudson's Bay
Company. It might be true to say that demands on the
truantry lead been saved during the present year, but he
begged to remind them that they would probably be called
on for large sums in future years. (Hear.) In tee course of
lest session he asked the government not to complete the
bargain with the Hudson's Bey Company, at least tid the
charges brought spinet them by the Red River settlers had
been Inquired into and the validity of the charter of
Clinks IL had been asaertsined, what many peewits con-
sidered to he invalid. He did not mean to dispute the
right of the crown to mike the grant, but there was very
grave doubt as to the extent of land conferred by the grant
in question. (Hear, hear.) It was meintaitied by persons
well qualified to give en opinion, that the Iludgen's Bay
Coca; aot• (lamed riette over hundreds of thousands of miles
which hid never leen conferred on them, aced which it was
never intended should be conferred on them by the charter.
As a proof of that he might mention that France claimed a
legal right to this territory, ;and although it was confirm d
te Great Bawler by the treaty of Utrecht, yet if it could be
proved that France had a 1• gal claim et the time of the
charter, it unite riot now belong to the ceinjetey, because that
which was not in the possession of the grantors at the time: of
the grant could Lever have been transferred to the granter.
Meer, he sr.) Tbis question had been float raised by the
North Weil Company, :ems of the members of which were
now members of the Hudson's Bay Company, who stoutly
maintained the validity of the charier, which they had been the
v ry first to call is question. He now came to the question of
the conduct ut the company in that per ion of their territory,
re.pe cting which there was no doubt. Ile would confine I,i,
uhserratiees on this bead to the conduct of the company es
it affected the aborigines. Two reasons heel been ape ei.ey
mentioned se re.tens for court rring Gine privileges on the
company; the first was the prohi'ini ea of the sale of spirits,
and the attending to the moral and rel'g'oes improvement
of the inhabitants. The Hudson's Bay Company had been
charged with neglecting the fulfilment of these duties.
Another charge against them was that having an exclusive mo-
nopoly they not only elected whims-et, price they pleased for
their goods but gave inadequatentouneration. Anothercharge
brought against the company was, that cans of murder com-
mitted by the company's servants under some species of trial
was of frequent occurrence. Some of these charges seemed
to him to be admitted b) Sir John filly and the officers of
the company themselves. He found it stated in the blue
book before them that in the outskirts of Canada goods wen
said at from two to tenfold less than where the exclusive
right of trading exste I. The sale of spirits was a matter of
the highest consideration. In the year 1837 the Bile of
spirits amcun'ed to 3,000 gallon?. In 11447, ten years atter.
ward., the consumption amounted to 9,000 gallons, altheuth
in the interval the ate rieinal populatin, he wee Sorts to
say, had eiminished. (dear, hear.) If the North West
Company, in consequence of the efforts of Mr. Wilberforce,
reduced the consumption in their territory from 60,000
gallons to 10,000 gallons, no person would say that the
Hudson's Bay Compel%) could not do ths same it they were
inclined so to do. There was the testimony of five men on
the contrary, former servants of the company, that spirits
had been supplied to the natives by the company at several of
the station. (Hear, hear.) With regard to providing for
the religious and spiritual wants of the people, and instruct-
ing them in the Christian religion, Sir J. Peliy distinctly re-
pudiated in one place the statement that there was any en-
gagement entered into by the company to convert the
nerves. All (said he) that the company could do was to
prepare the way for missionaries, and to give them all the
rib they could. But, on other occasions, when the com-
p.ny wanted to eb•ain any privileges, they did not ignore
this obligation, and even Sir J. Pelly himself, in 1840, and
again in 1844, aimitted in a communication addressed to the
hon. geatl-man oppothe (Mr. Hawes) that it wee one offline
duties to Christianise and civilise the native popula'ion. Sinn
the iccoeporation of Lord Sethi's.' rights with their own, the
company had, it appeared, dine but little to neoursge fresh
emigration, by giving to parties already settled there such
rights and privileges es would constitute them free
and independent settlers. From the period of the twofer
to them of the Red River Settlement, this com-
pany, having an exclusive right to the trade of
tee district, had prevent d the influx of any goods
except through their own ships, or he ehould rather ay their
own animal ship. P, ases this enormous poser, they
charged the colonists such high freights that by that means
they completely destroyed the possibility of anything like
trade being carried on in the settlement, and thus aggravated
to a frightful extent the evils inherent in the whole system.
There was a land deed, which every colonist in the Red
River Settlement was obliged to sign before he could enter
upon possession. This deed made those who signed it the
Mtn slave+ and serfs of the company, even more completely
so than the unfortunate Indi ins ; and if that deed alone
remained tine:planed, it would suffice to prove that the
Hudson's Bay Campsny were utterly unfit to be
entrusted with any colonising operations. (Hear,
hear.) As regarded the mar nor in which the com.
ra y treated all those who dissented from their arbitrary
authority in matters of trade, hie right hon. friend the mem-
ber for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) bad, in
the last session, re ad a letter from the company to Mr.
James Simpson. That gentleman, having desired to try the
experiment of a shipment of t Mow, appealed to the execu-
tive government at home against the exorbitant demands of
the company ; whereupon he received a curt letter from
the agent of the company, informing him that no goods
would be shi; ped on his account that year. Wee it tolera-
ble that, for merely appealing to the government at heme, a
respectable gentleman should be debarred from having •
license to use the company's ship ? He could not better ex-
emplify the percent condition of the Red River settlement them
by reeding an extract from a work having reference to one el
the company's own servants, entitled "The Li'e and Travels
of Thomas Simpson." le a letter to his brother Mr. Simp-
son said the former could have no idea of the curious
position of the company ; that ever since 1826 the affairs of I
the settlement bad been managed exclusively by the Hud-
son's Bay Company ; that the company sold the lend at
125.61. per acre, and pocketed the money; that they kept about
a scare of policemen ; that in all criminal cull they virtually
acted as judge, jury, and jailor; sad that the only good