The Express.
London, England, 1847-12-15 00:00:00

STATES.

Lord STANLEY rose to call the attention of the house
to the continued absence of the Lord Privy Seal. Under
any circumstances the absence for several months of a
person holding so high a position as that of Lord Privy Seal
would be a ground to entitle parliament to ask for some ex-
planation from the government, He confessed, how-
ever, he should be lees anxious for any explana-
tion on the subject, were it merely on account of the
absence of the noble earl from England ; but that which ren-
dered a specific answer from the noble marquis to the ques-
tions he was about to put to him necessary was, not so much
the absence of the noble earl from England as his presence
in Italy at this particular moment. (Hear.) There was a
general expectation and belief prevailing in this eountry—
whether correct or not he was unable to say—that it was the
intention of her Majesty's government to endeavour to estab-
lish diplomatic relations between this country and the court
of Rome, and that the mission of Earl Minto was connected
with that object. With regard to the expediency or policy
of such a change of the law—if change of the law were ne-
cessary—as should enable the government to establish each
relations with the temporal sovereign of the Roman states he
expressed no opinion. He said that the noble viscount the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in answer to a Tees-
bon recently put to him in another place, bad stated that
Lord Mint* was entrusted by her Majesty's gore/mimeos
with no mission to the see of Rome. (Hear, hear.) He
understood that answer to mean that Earl Minto was not,
on the part of her Majesty's government, an accredited mi-
nister entrusted with any diplomatic functions at the court
of Rome ; at the same time there undoubtedly was a belief
in this country, which belief had been much strengthened by
reports, whether true or false he knew not, of an interview
of considerable duration with which the noble earl had
been honoured by the Sovereign Pontiff, that if not
sowed directly to establish diplomatic relations, one
portion of his duty had been to ascertain what
would be the feeling of the court of Rome with
regard to the establishment of such relations. (Hear.
But though such was the opinion which prevail::, generally
not only in England and in Italy' but ttninghout the eon-
tinent, he apprehended that a digerent motive might be at-

.

C

t ranted to the mission in which Earl Mint* was arc en-
gr gad. He used the word " mission," for be mould that
the noble earl was not at this time a mere moat vigor at
Rome, travelling for his own arriessent, and la thr sass
culpably neglecting his duty tor to peresmor and hi
dhow In the government. Amway, thossilo, that is ears
capacity or other he was adios on re par et and perent-
ing the dutif • cif the British sovereiga—
(hear, Mar his now vas to so
of the government
that whisk penlhassut had a right to mik, if it
was to therech to any foreign country ea
officer :te:t= amok end dignity as • member of
the cabinet—the Lord Privy field ? Parliament had a right
to inquire what was the nature of the mission on which he
had been despatched, and the functions he wes supposed to
be entrusted with. Such an inquiry would be right in refer-
ence to the mission of • cabinet minister to any country ;
but, with regard to the Italian states, and at this past' ter
time, it was • matter of peculiar importance that ent
should be fully informed of the views with which Mlllnint•
had been sent out. He was not acquainted with all the is
trimmer of the present state of affairs in Italy, especially the
north of Italy ; but it was notorious that, under the auspices
of the pontiff and pertly under other auspices, there
was • state of disquiet and political movements
going on which excited exaggerated hopes on the
one hand and appreheasioas on the other, the effect
of which was to place the whole of that part of the
continent in • state of ferment, and the several nations con-
nected by political relations with it in • state of considerable
anxiety. It was under the guidance of the ',regent pontiff
that various schemes had been set afloat for the introduction
of • more liberal system of government in the affairs of the
northern states. Similar concessions they knew had been
demanded by several other states from their respective
'sins, and, to a more or less extent, and with more or
less reluctance, those concessions had, by more than one
of thole sovereigns, been granted. What might be the
object of the present movemsnt ia Italy, or the ultimate in-
tention of those who were directing it—if indeed they had
made up their =lads as to any ultimate intention—above
all what might be the meaning of that expression put forth
as the watchword of tho more eager partisans of that move-
meat, " the independence of Italy " he (Lord Stanley)
could form no conception. (Haw.) But the object of the
movement in the Italian stater, so far as it bad taken place
in one or more of those states, was confined, so far as he could
understand, to changes of purely an internalnature—changse
in the popular power in its relations with the sovereign
power as then exercised. So far then as this movement had
anything of an internal aspect and bearing it was, so far, re-
moved from such cases as this country, acting en principles
of good sense and good policy, had any right to interfere in.
It had been supposed that the object of the movement was
partly of a commercial and partly of a political character,
for the purpose of establishing • reseal federal union of all
the states of the north of Italy. II the object were to estab-
lish • commercial uniou which would in any way affect the
commercial interests of this country no doubt it would be a
matter for the attention of her Majesty's government, and
One that should be watched carefully by them at home ; but
it was one that by no means justified the accrediting a ca-
binet minister to the court of Rome. So, if the object were
to effect alterations in the internal political arrangements of
those states, though it might be well deserving the atten-
tion and justify the anxious consideration of the government,
the last twine they should pursue would be to give to that
movementdirect encouragement by the presence of • cabinet
ministerof this country. (Hear.) But it, by the " independ-
ence of Italy" it was meant that no foreign power should
exercise any control over any province situated within the
geographical limits of Italy, that was an object to which not
only this country would not be justified in contributing, but
an object which we were bound by the faith of treaties not
only not to aid but to resist. Though Earl Mint, might not
be accredited to the Pope or to any other sovereign that we
knew of, yet, being the representative of the British govern-
ment, he had, presuming the information which had reached
this country to be correct, compromised the British govern-
ment by his acts, by his words and by his conduct ; and
it was due, therefore, to parliament that they should
have • distinct understanding of the functions which
Lord Mints had to perform, and the character of
the instructions with which he had been sent out.
The reports which had appeared in those sources of informa-
tion, which were open to all, as to Lord Minto's proceedings,
he trusted the noble marquis would be enabled to contra-
dict. He meant, that the minister of Great Britain, so
situated and so circumstanced as Lord Minto was in Italy,
had, on more than one or two occasions, appeared in answer
to the calls of the people parading the treets with flags and
emblems, aad joined with them in the cry in favour of the
" independence of Italy ;" that on the second occasion,
during a procession at Rome, the crowd assembled before
the hotel in which Lord Mints resided, and, recognising him,
not as a mere British traveller, but as the supposed repre-
sentative of this country, and as expressing the senti-
ments of the British government, called for him,
and that, in obedience to that call, he appeared
on the balcony, waved his hand to them, and joined
in the " Vivas I " for the independence of Italy.
He trusted that the noble marquis would be enabled to state
that there was no truth in these details. In a nobleman of
the Earl of Minto's rank such intermeddling with the inter-
nal affairs of foreign states would be highly zeprehenaible,
but it became doubly so when the nobleman so acting was
the avowed and accredited representative of hie government.
(Hear, hear.) For a man so circumstanced, to take any
part in the movement at present going on in Italy but above
all to join in the vague and unintelligible cry of Italian in-
dependence, wu a course calling for unequivocal disapproval,
and he trusted he should hear from the noble marquis that
it was wholly inconsistent with the instructions of the go-
vernmeat. (Hear.) The question he was about to put to the
noble marquis, and to which he hoped he should receive •
satisfactory reply, were, in the first place, whether provision
had been made for discharging the duty of Lord Privy Seal
in the absence of the Earl of Mints ; and, next, on the as-
sumption that that noble lord was in Italy, under the orders
of his government, he wished distinctly to be informed to
what object his instructions pointed, and whether or no he
was accredited to the supreme pontiff or to any other Italian
sovereign, and, if so, what were the limits of his functions,
power, and authority ? (Hear, hear.) He wished further to
know whether the noble marquis, on the part of the govern-
ment, was prepared to state that England had no desire to
interfere—be did not mean merely by force, but by moral
influence, or by the encouragement of its accredited minister
—in the internal affairs of Italy, or in disturbing thaw forms
of government which each particular state might have
thought fit to adopt. These were the questions to which he
hoped the noble marquis would give a distinct answer, both
as to the facts and as to the views of her Majesty's govern-
ment; and he also hoped for • denial of the conduct which
had been attributed to Lord Minto, or, if it were admitted,
he hoped for a declaration that Lord Mina in so acting had
exceeded his instructions and authority. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWHE thomeht that the
noble lord must be sofficiently aware of the duties of Lord
Privy Seal, to know that, although it was undoubtedly an
office e hash rank, yet that, looking to the ordinary
preetimd ribimMeris of affairs, it was not at-
tends4..milli soy spooks of difficulty which required
the maront loaners in that house, or in the
country., of as mom exerciaing It. But the ob-
jection isepir lay Om aside lord in his question not merely
applied to Pm individual selected, but also to the nature of
the Maim Iler which he had been selected to 'repair to fo-
reign ossielse. Now it was the very nature of that mission
which mils la darahlo that a noir kir, who possmod the
trine aanillomos at W saileaguss, sad who wr pseloctly
acgaidnilad rommittnemollser iwld be saiwood. He
(the Ihrierlost Lismilowss) hod so lantaticia, after what
tae sodit lir had stated that oralsg with respect to the
condition et Italy, in rtrinding *Mr lordships of the
inspormso at the saanactions which were taking
place dos that country, leadirj, as they might do,
net only to the greatest moment
—areaperses °Samalskamtsgessm in themselves,
and eriesios to
si=y at ma Italian slur, but
elks esisepasems trompash as
they melgitt %rho tho reistros Vttairtaben Mar with
other seunteas. In dm reourr now prevailing he that
country, whir sill not he ordsimmed bonus Me primed
objects in such individual arts tmedol to a micr o. whirl
had not elk been Ichrhand la Ihely, hat had bra h.
Ir=eng o=tho AyMe= rilyurpietirill"
bat der ot op•—• astrarat whisk had bosom Sand-
Mame, whir was MIN Isimpo MA Irbil*, hoe it cha-
racter, von likely to briars hMuipmalit, wasfrim
that not a moreent should be Witufsh= the
vice nod intorterenoe of England, rasp
object., bat is general Leadsmen's toismistsd at am to M-
eows& the perronaris sad tho populers be tbo ships
they were taking so kr as those steps wee, limbed to or
object, namely, 'the internal improvement of each slate.
(Gibes.) It was important that in sack a state of
ofrilshould be represented in Italy, and that the ill=
atter country shoedd be made looms be her by a
perm valuable so well from Ids high parrs sad authority
as his mesiry hi obtainiakkesit asen. No lad
therein- us Wars la Oa sides that the Ihrl
ot lento wu not in I mariy tsr
staatnito, but that he loft this courry se-
ts all the sovereigns of Italy war ono
to wham, asoordiag to tho enemerstion of this runs;
lete conk not ft les assooditroL (Hesr, hear.) He had
been bruited to isormsralt Ida 11thsovereign, to offer
t he mat Idandfq
co whir liut to trims dr shies to capercastanet with Cho frontel hopeormintot ark stare or
farther, be whim sunk a mum to oar rim r shard yr
vent eloommerner arrows. to thiamine Ara
appalierkes on the part rather power, said air =
mord, inimilinsoe with rights whisk be =aer.d. with tko sirs lord it wigs vitally
=stNo hoped the noble 1:41=1 mainland
ills err that tho Bari et Mir awl the
gowerrmant was' dimply samilio at
int
ortXlllll St
obeirvliti than mar, sad of roar
to avert rellsior between his its of ent of
the exclissmat sow per alllnp—millams whica (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) daymenle4 ger as mash as the
noble lord. The Earl of Mints essmisniested with the
Italian avareigns,and he woe jurist it saying that thaw
wyereigBl hid edien#7 IdPftMell Me met cordial oar be-
rm, materatimg aims be pritilmlo, ateartlng dm ea
&tetrads a erre ris odors bang em
so Warr* Y opperorty of raldmg air waCdlstha
known. Wwevor waft it might hafimarlorildmtte-
aarti.s remit a spier, he was psemersd that dm sr
sums el es Bad of Mint° in Italy had doprossed
any dkpositiem to roam whisk reit have erred
be that and, show all, ha preowned gni
sad amersor rem bawls Ili• gown-
mina does pile it vial" sormiares
sit
shoalelMlL). the whim hod had alts
Ledlll=possemes at Nam No would
say Ilmadhough not nomolkod to the rent of Noms, it
word hire been a gnat 'whir on the part of List MIRO,
If, Wig ice Itply, and Itlernelng the way in whieb Mime was
a." 011 up with ewe possirris to which was ram
, ha bad not ego gimp amil tarn nary pore to

acquire ateurate information. He could state that the
gonesmiat had den most inwetsat information from
Lord Misre's prams» In Rome. The noble iced had guns
tank». mall bad said him whether he thought it donnas»
timid Me DOM government should have • representative at
Preasti •
Lard STANLILY—The noble marquis is mistaken; I did
me ask a quids&
The Mamie of LANSDOWNE—The noble lord had I
introduced Um point into his speech in such a way as to
avoid giving an opinion. He should not follow the noble
lerd's example, but in answering should give an answer at
once. (Cheers.) The opinion which he should venture to
give was, that It was most desirable we should be repro.
seated at Rome. He thourbt it absurd, that while this
country had the means of getting the beat information
through the best channels from every government almost in
the world, there was yet io the very centre of Europe Wart
in which it had no means of Communicating or of Bet-
tis* information, while he believed there WY not a
court in the world In which it would be more useful
to England to have means of communication considering the
peculiar influence of that court in various parts of the British
dominions. (Hear, bear.) At present it could not be done
b 7 law, but he bad thought it right frankly to state his opi-
awn. (Hoar.) There was only en* question more, which
the noble lord bed founded on certain statements in the
newspapers, to the effect that the Earl of Minto had on some
occasion expressed his sympethiliith what the noble lord
had called the vague and taunt* • We cry of Italian inde-
pendence. He could not give e noble lord a positive
answer, because he had no authority, nor any authentic re-
port,,p but.it was
hin his7,...ttattiooLevaner/ is;ix,:taion.Lord Mint bad
had expressed most have been with reform 7niseTch'indie-
vidual state, and not with any fanciful scheme or new
national system. He could not say whether Lord Minto had
or had not sympathised:- but this he was sure, that any ex-
pressions which the noble lord had used had been founded on
• desire for the separate improvement of each state, and
above all, for a well-cemented friendly alliance between the
Italian governments and people. He had only. further to
add, for the noble lard's satisfaction, that the privy seal bad
been placed in commission pending the absence of Lord
Minto. (A laugh.)

AFFAIRS OF SWITZERLAND.
Lord BEAUMONT, inquired whether this country ad-
hered to the proposal that a conference should be held, at
which a member of the Sonderbund should be present ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied that Sir Stratford
Canning, who was well acquainted with the whole question,
bed been instructed, on his way through Switzerland, to
place himself in communication with the authorities, and to
gire his advice upon such points as might be submitted to
him, but in no way.to act in the Corm of interference or inter-
vention
Their lordships then adjourned, at 20 minutes past 7, till
to-morrow (this day).

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUESDAY, Dxc. 14.
The SPEAMIR took the chair at four o'clock, when several
members were

PUBLIC WASS:ft
FIRST READING.--Quarter %Mons Bill.
THIRD RMADDlG.—Baihraye Bill.
REPORT.—P•Mie Work" (Ireland) Bill.
NOTICIM OF MOTlONLl.—Cornmacur Dun= wro Ccaamor
Comarra.—lnad G. Ihnrrnon gam notlee that on the motion for
Mi" raft the smillis he should more to omit the ammo of Hr.
ya Wm animal], Mr. alOll,llO, BLr W. Clay, and Mr. J.
aZenbillnin Mom ol Mr. Ham* Mr. D. Brown, Mr. Hen.
icy, Mr. FOAM" ale Mr. Hunts.
Rox.ra Gramm IMism B. O'Bmior to 1700", to
committee on this YR a decree to enable ROOMS catholic' to hold the
Aloe of Lord Claudio of Ireland.