The Express.
London, England, 1853-06-28 00:00:00

DOCKYARD APPOINTMENTS.

But as the Conn of Directors were paid by estrange and
not by stipends, they of name disposed of that ;tannage
to their friends in this country. He vented to see a larger
number of the natives brought into the employment of the
government. (" Hear, hear" front an hen. member.)
Yes, but the same thing was promised in 1833, tad it was
reentemplated in the act of parliameet, but it us •
serried out, sad it never would be as bog as the patronage
was disposed of in its present form. (Hear, bee.) But
fenny got rid of the double government and wade the
valuate r fur India responsible fa the government
let India then public opinion in this country would be
beseght to beer upon him, and he would be applied to
distribute more of his patronage amonot the natives, be-
cause the people of this country would rot endure that the
vast patronage of India should be in the sands of the minis-
ter of the crown for distribution amongst his political sup-
porters hen. There was another poiot *Lich was a used
the preeieitaney with which the measure had been brought
for se arel,aud he believed it was not noticed before in the course
of the ilehate. Ile referred to the state of the relations be-
tween the vessels of war in the Indian waters, and the govern-
ment of India; and in illustration of what be meant,
he stated what had taken place on the breaking out
of the Bunn( ee war. Now the :mint which he
wished to illustrate by this episode was this, that
Lord Dalhousie had no power to give orders to Commodore
Lambert on that ,cation, aced all he could do was to solicit
the co-operation of the (lee n', ships just as he might solicit
the co-operation of the ships of a friendly power. IC the
order had been tent out by the First Lori of the Admiralty,
would Commodore Lambei t have dead to disregard hie
order*, and violate the precise instructions he had received ?
(flee, hear.) Lord Dalhousie himself sent a communica-
tion to the President of the Board of Control (Load
Broughton) expressing a hope, that bathe renewal of the
next charter act this anomalous state of the relations be-
tween her Majesty's vessels and the government of India
would be provided for. (Hear, heat) But there was
nothing on this important subject in the present bill, and
was not this &nether ground for delay till they had °b-
eldam' further information? (Hear, hear.) lie had now
to say a few words on the subject of the
finances of India, and in speaking on this subject
he could not separate the finances of India from those of
England. (Hear, hear.) If the finances of the Indian go-
vernment received any severe and irreparable check, would
not the resources of England be called upon to inset the
emergency and to supply the deficiency? (Hear, hear.)
Three times during the present century the Court of Direc-
tors called on the house to enable thorn to get rid of the
difficulties which pressed upon them. (Hear) And did they
suppose that if such a case were to occur again that England
would refuse her aid ? Why the point of honour, if there
were no other reason, would compel them to do sin Did
they not hear it said that their Indian empire was con-
cerned iu keeping the Russians nut of Constantinople,
which was GOJO macs distant from Calcutta, and if they
were raising outworks at a distance of Geo° miles, let
no man say that the finances of England were
not concerned in the financial condition of India
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Guildford touched
on this subject on Friday night in a tone that rather
surprised him : he taxed those who opposed the measure
with a readiness to swallow anything, and twitted his hon.
friend (Mr. Bright) with saying that the debt of India con-
tracted since the last charter act was 20,000,)001. The hon.
gentleman (Ur. Mangles) said it was only 2,000,000/.: he
said that 13,000,0001. was the increase of the debt, but that
there was 4,006,0001. is the exchequer. He (Mr. Cobden)
would quote the evidence of Mr. Mcßae who eigned all the
papers that came before the committee on ads point. Mr.
Melvill, being asked what the amount of the debt
was, says :—The amount of the debt is over 20,000,000/.
After this answer of Mr. 31elvill, what became of the
statement of the hon. member for Guildford ? (Hear, hear.)
But he must say, that there was a very great difference
in the opinions and statement of Indian authorities. He
appealed to the house, whether the management of India
should he entrusted to those who took stock in a waysthat
would not satisfy a commissioner of bankruptcy in tho case
of the humblest retail trader? The amount of defalcation
in the course of the last twenty years was 28,000,0001., and
if the company went on in the same manner for the next
twenty yam, they would have run up a debt of nearly
100,000,000/. Hs saw no benefit which could arise
to the man of the English people from their con-
nexion with India, except that which might arise from
honest trade; he did not see how the millions of this
country were to share in the patronage of India, or to
derive any advent/tee from it except through the medium
of trade; and therefore he said emphatically that if they
could show him that the East India Company was the
reality which many persons supposed it to be, he should
not be the party to wish to withdraw their responsible trust,
and to place it again in the hands of a minister of the
British crown. But when he saw that this vast territory
was now being governed under a fiction, that the govern-
ment was not a real one, but one which one of the most
able se nuts of the company had declared to be a 'ham, he
said—Do not let the people of this country delude them-
irises with the idea that they can escape the responsibility
by putting the government behind • screen. lie wished,
therefore, to look this question fairly in the face; he
wished to bring the people of this country face to face with
the difficulties and dangers with which he thought it was
beset. Let it no longer be though; that a few gentlemen
meeting in Leadenhall-street could screen the people of
England from the responsibility with which they had in.
vested themselves with regard to India. Since the
granting of the last charter more territory bad been
gained by conquest than within any similar period
before, and the acquisition of territory had been
constantly accompanied with a proporioeate increase
of debt. They bad annexed Sattara, and their own blue
blooks proved that it was governed at a loss ; they had
annexed Seinde, and their own hooks proved that it too
was governed en loss; they bad annexed Pegu, and their
own authorities said that that annexation also would
involve a loss All these losses must press on the mere
fertile provinces of Bengal, which were constantly being
drained of their resources to make good the deficit. Let
him not be told by and bye that the annexation of Pere
and Burmah would be beneficial. What said Lord Dal-
housie ? (Hear, hear.) He said in his dispatch—and the
dictation should not be forgotten—that he looked upon the
emulation of Pegu as an evil second only to that of war
itself, and if they should he obliged to annex Bur-
math, then farewell to all prospect of amelioration
in Indian affairs. (Hear, hear) Well then, believing that
U this fictiou were destroyed—if this mystery were exter-
minated—there were alreally the germs of a better state of
things in reference to this question ; and believing that as
yet they were profoundly ignorant of what was wanted for
India, he should vote for the amendment, that they should
wait for two yearn; and he hoped sincerely that the house
would agree to it. (Cheers)
Sir J. GRAHAM said— I hope the house will permit
we to address them on the question under their considera-
Aire. (Cheers.) I have long given my attention to the
subject; and it so happens, that when on the last occasion,
dos renewal of the term of government for twenty yews was
Needed to by parliament, I had the honour, as a member
lid Lord Grey's government, of being associated with
the Mennittee of the cabinet which considered the
'eilleselierm in that scheme. My hon. and learned friend the
siaelmir for Beth (Mr. nine) spoke of what be considered
sty desertion of whig principles in reforms' to the genre-
'sent of India. Now, it so happens that la the committee
to which I have referred, I was associated in pmr,pexllg the
scheme with Lord Lansdowne, with Sir Jenne Xsedantosh,
and with my eight hon. friend the member for Edinbusgh,
whose voice I, in common with the house, have rejoiced to
hear again within these walls—(cheers)—and the mimes
was adopted by the united voice of many distinguished
members of the administration to which I now belong.
Now I do not conceive it possible that a graver or more
difficult subject. than this could be discussed in any legisla-
ture. (Hear, hear.) I am happy to pantie° that although
there is much difference of opinion on the subject,
there has not been up to the prevent moment'
the slightest taint of party or factious feeling
in the mode of handling it. (Hear, hear.) It has been
objected that the measure has no character of perma-
nence
about it. I admit that, as we propose it, it is not for
any find period, and is so tar iudefinite on the face of it ;
I but it is my opinion that if the measure be found good,
with the alterations that we propose, it will be for the per-
manent
government of India. If the alterations that we '
propose shall be proved by experience to be defec-
tive, it will be fur the wisdom of parliament at any '
time to apply the nee&ary corrective. (Rear, hear)
Now, although I differ widely from the noble lord (Lord
Stanley) on the question which we are now discussing, I
must say that I heard the speech in which he proposed the
amendment with very great pleasure. (Cheers.) It was a
speech of great ability, but was still more distinguished by
its candour and by the absence of anything like pasty taint.
(Hear, hear.) The noble turd has done well in employing
his leisure in visiting the dependencies of this country, and
thereby gualifyirg himself to sustain hie hereditary fame by
the display of those talents which he would he unworthy of
his father if he did not possess. The candour, however, of
the noble lord's admissions greatly weakened his pro-
position. (Hear.) The noble lord seems to approve of many
i of the provisions of the bill. There an, I believe, about 43
or it clauses, and as far as I could collect from the noble
lord's need:, there are only two or three to which be ob-
I juts. But the important questions connected with this dis-
cussion arc two—the question of delay, and that of single or
double government. 'I hese are the real cardinal points to be
decided by the opinion of the house. First, as to the ques-
tion of delay. I have already alluded to the opinion of
Lord Dalhousie, and I may add that the subject is a grave
and important one under any circumstances, but the gravity
Mil difficulty are very much increased by the mecum-
etsenee of the present moment. Look around our Indian
empire and see in what way it is surrounded. China, on
ooe side, what is the state of affairs there ? A serious
revolution in progress, the effects of which are only imper-
fectly developed, a great struggle of races going on between
the Tartars and the natives, and the effects not to tie
foreseen by any present calculation. Then we come to
Burmah. I hope and belit cc that the contest there is draw-
ing to a close, and that the greatest danger has been over-
come, but still there is some uncermainty as the final issue.
Neither can we overlook the position of Nepaul. And all
these considerations point to the wisdom of the advice given
in another place by Lord Elienborough, wee said that the
time had arrived when we should put ewe house in order.
(Hear, hear.) What does Lord Ilardiege fay ? Does he
counsel delay ? lle says, that whatever may be your de-
cision, it is your duty to decide at once.
(Hear, hear.) Mr. Wilberforce Bird is also, 1 be-
lieve, against delay; and again, we have the opinion
in the same direction of the right hen. member for
Stamford. I told you what was his opinion in committee,
and far from receding from that opir ion, the right hon.
member has avowed .t in his place in this house, proposing
that we should proceed to immediate legislation. Hear,
hear.) Sir J. llobhouso and Lord l'anmure are for imme-
diate legislation, and, I need not add, so is my right hon.
friend the; present Fiends:fa of tho Ogled of Control.

K EATING, on the 6th of July, to mon—
" hat, referring to the report of the select com-
mittee on dockyard promotions, and the evidence
on which it is founded, this house is of opinion that
during the administration of the late Board of Admi-
ralty the patronage of the dockyard momoti ins and the in-
fluence of the Admiralty, were used and exercised for poli-
tical purpoms, to an extent and in a manner calculated to
relleet dinewedst upon that department of the government,
and to impair the efficiency of the. terrier. "
THE INDIA IoII.L.—(ADJOURNED DEBATE )
The motion for reeding the order of the day having been
pat and armed to, this debate was resumed by
Mr. COBDEN, who said the question before them was the
whole government of ludia; and the problem to solve was,
whether they should have *hot was called a single era double
government. In discussing that qeestion i.e was met with
this difficulty—he did not see and could not understand
that it was a double government. lie hail sought in vain
to find what power the Court 01 Directors had to entitle them
to be called a government at all. Looking through the act
of 1534 to find what irresponsible power was given to them,
he found they had Lone whatever, r xcept the ilinoosal of
the patronage. The act lett the whole controlling power to
the bested of commissioners tar managing the affairs of
India; therefore, he looked upon the Court of Directors,
not as a government, but as nothing but as a screen, be-
hind which the real government was hid. (Hear.) It was
because ho wished to get rid of that screen, and that the
real government might stand before the house and the
world in its proper character, end take v pen its shoulders
the responsibility of the misgoverament of India—if there
were any—that he wanted to have this matter eimplefied,
and to uo away with the double gereduarnt, i e., to bring
into one office the government of India. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. Hardman, the conductor of the Friend of India, a
strong advocate of " thim,s as they are,' admitted that if
there was no power vested in the. Court of Directors but
the disposal of the patronage, that it was no government
at all ; and that was oil the power they possessed. The
evil of this mystery was, that where the responsibility
of the government existed could Lordly be pointed out by
any intelligent person. (Hear, hear) lhoro could bo
nothing worse than mystery its the forms and proceeding,
of an administration except it were mystery es to the source
whence those proceedings emanated. We bad been lately
simplifying our courts of law and getting rid of fictitious
firms of proceeding ; we had abolished " John Doe and
Richard Roe." (Hear.) Here was " John Doe " and
" Richard Roe " in the form of the Indian government ;
and for whose benefit ? (Hear, hear.) Was it for the be-
nefit of the people of India Mr. Zdarshman himself,
though he did nut speak of carrying on the govern-
ment of India under the crown, distinctly and repeat-
idly laid ,it down that the government of 'oldie should
be carried on in one office, that the President of the
Board of Control, or whoever was the responsible
minister of India, should sit in the same mum
with those who constituted the council, now the Court of
Directors in Leadenhall-street, and should communicate
with them orally, instead of by correspondence as at pre-
sent. But what were the evils of this delusive form of go-
vernment ? The first and greatest of all was this, that pub-
lic opinion was diverted from the subject, that that en-
lightened public opinion was oat brought to bear on Indian
question!, which would be the case if India were governed
in the name of the crown, just the same as the eolonies Lad
been. It might be answered that if India were coverned as
the colonies had been it would be governed badly ; but if
any good had arisen from our government of the colonies, it
had come from enlightened public opinion emanating from
this country, and chiefly brought to bear on cur culonial
empire in that house. (Hear, hear.) If there were any
hope fee the amelioration of India, it must come from the
tame source; and he wanted the Indiau government to
haveittch a tangible, visible form, that the public opinion
of this country might be able to reach it, and that there
might be no mask or screen before it as now. (Hear,
hear.) With an enlightened ;public opinion brought
to bear more directly on the aeries of India, there would be
a hedge chance of avoiding that source of all fiscal ember-
regiment, conatut wars and constant annexations of terri-
tory. (Hear, hear.) In other parts of the world, no Maim-
ter of the crown would take credit for offering to annex
territory anywhere.. Oa the west coast of Africa it might
not be less profitable to extend our territory than in Bur-
mah ; yet a resolution of a committee of that house, many
years ago, forbad the extension of our territory in tropical
countries. Wines au adventurous gentleman, Sir James
Brooke, went out and took possession dimmer territory on
the coast of Borneo, the enlightened government of Ste R.
Peel and his colleagues resolutely resisted all attempts to
indace them to occupy as territory there. Recently,
when it was announced in the house that orders had hese
given to the admiral on that station that on no account
should any fresh territory be acquired, the announcement
was received with loud cheering. (Rear, hear.) We had
arrived at a point when public opinion in the house and the
country would prevent any such thing ; and he believed that
the leading statesmen en both sides would resolutely
set themselves against any extension of our territory in
tropical countries. Then how was it that this went on
constantly in India, to the loss and dilapidation of the
finances ? With a declaration in the journals of that house
and in an act of parliament never repealed, that the honour
and interest of this country was concerned in not extend-
ing its territory in the east, still these continual annexations
went on intact's'. Why did these things happen? it was
because at the present time all the authority in these mat-
ters was left in the hands of the Governor-General of India.
lie said virtually, because he believed they rested in point
of law with the President of the Board of Control. No-
thing could be more conclusive than the distinctness of the
avowal of Lord Broughton that he was responsible for the
war in Affghanistan ; and Lord Eilenborough declared that
when ho was president of that Board, he knew that he
governed India. He was, therefore, astonished when be
heard the right honourable gentleman opposite (Mr.
Berries) state that neither he nor his predeces-
sors in office were responsible for the wars in India,
but that the governor-general was the person responsible
for them. When there existed such differences of opinion
on such an important guidon, • question which involved
not only the fate of India, but of England, was it not
high time to come to some definite understanding on the
subject ? (Hear.) Was it not right, when such differences
of opinion existed between men of the highest authority,
that there should be a little delay, in order that they might
all come to an understanding on so vital a point ? (Hear.)
Practically he believed that these things were carried ;on
in India where the governor-general was surrounded by an
atmosphere of a warlike tendency—where the mere rumour
of twat was received with favour by all that constituted
public opinion in that country. (Hear, hear.) Even
Lord Dalhousie himself nays on this subject, that
it was his deliberate opinion that in the exercise of
• wise policy nothing could be said against acquiring
new territory or revenue. (Hear, hear.) Yet this
was aid in the teeth of an act of parliament which
declared that it wan contrary to sound policy to an-
nex any more territory to one dominions. (Hear, hear.)
And this declaration of Lord Dalhousie came out before the
declaration of the l'resident of the United States, General
Pierce, who made a qualified declaration that the Uuited
States would annex territory by every just and lawful
mean*, and which declaration of litho l'resideat of
the United States was received with great dis-
favour in this country. The English people and
parliament were apt to regard the government of India
as something apart from their own interests, as romrthing
for which they were not responsible—froas which they were
to anther fruits without tho responsibilities that should
aceurnpany them ; and it was his firm opinion that nothing
would awaken the people of England to a full sense of the
responsibbity and peril which attached to them in this
matter, bat a due appreciation of the state and prospects of
the revenue of India. (Ileac) He would now refer
to the aeeret committee of the India House. Ile should
like to have the cross-examination of every member of the
• and to ask them what did they know of this tecret
committee. It was composed of three gentlemen from the
Board of Directors, to whom all the communication: front
the Board of Control were made. It was in the power of
the President of the Board of Con trot to tit down and pen a
despatch to this secret committee, ordering the annexational
China. And they wore bound to obey, however much they
✓alet disapprove of such an order. (Hear.) They were
obliged to send out the order, and the Court of Directors
themselves would know nothing on the subject till perhaps
the public papers brought back the news from India, for
the secret committee were sworn to secrecy. (Ileat.
bear.) I:nder such circumstances, they did not deserve
the name of a government. And what could be the iss•
five for inducing then twenty-four gentlemen to endure
being taunted with the evils of a syatcm where they were
held to be responsible and yet not trusted with power ?
(Hear, hear.) The reword which they received (or sub-
mitting to this humiliation was the patronage of India
and this was another evil arising front the system of double
government. It was one of the evils of this system that
the patronage ass in a great many instances given to
Europeans where it ought to be given to natives. (Rear.)

The chairman of the committee also—who can forget the
impressive manner in which he delivered his opinion, when,
as the result of two sessions' experience in Nominee, he
warned you against the danger of delay ? (Hoar, hear.)
Ndw, so mach for opinions ; but I would also plaice at the
reasons which, as it appears to me, ought to influence cur
decision on this question. It must not be forgotten how
slender is our tenure of India. (Hear, hear.) It is
in fact mainly an empire of opinion, and if you shake confi-
deuce in that country as to the permanence of your rule or
the steadiness of your government you are certain to
damage the very foundations of your power. (Hear,
hear.) So much for the question of delay, and now
to turn to the important question of the single or double
government. I admit that the Court of Directors, acting
in concert with the government and as an instrument or
the government, is an anomaly, but arc we not surrounded
with anomalies, both in this country and India? Is not
our position in India the greatest of all anomalies ? (Hear,
hear.) But the system of check and cJunter-check and the
balance of power is not a principle which will be found ob-
jectionable in a British lrgi.la.ure, and besides, you have
the experience of 80 or 70 years as to the advantages of
this mode of administering the government of India.
The noble lord who moved the amendment made an
admission, to which I have not before adverted. He
said, " t the tree be tried by its fruits." I am willing to
have the government of India tried by that test, and to
assert that, on the whole, the double govern-
ment has worked well for that country. (Hear, hear.)
First let us look to the evidence. The noble lord thinks we
hare not had enough, and my hon. friend the member
for the West Riding would crossesamine every member of
th;s house on the subject. But every person capable of
giving evidence has been called before the committee and
already examined. You have had two Governors-General,
Lords Ellenborough and Hardinge, and also Mr. Wilber-
force Bird. In the civil melee you have bad Sir George
Clerk, Mr. Mill, Mr. Prinsep, Mr. Trevelyan, Mr. Halli-
day,' and Mr. Marshman, to which I may add the distin-
guished member for Rochester, who sits opposite. In ad-
dition to this we have had the evidence of two of the very
ablest men who ever gave attention to Indian affairs,
Messrs. Melvin and Mill. Mr. Mill is intimately ac-
' qusinted with the whole machinery, and, therefore, al
most competent person to give an opinion on the sub-
ject. It may be said that he is the servant of the com-
pany, but surely all who know him know that he is far less
dependent on the company than the company is dependent
upon him. Dime is one answer of his which appears
to me conclusive as to the value of the double government :
Ile is asked—" What are the advantages of the division of
the home government of India into two distinct bodies, the
Court of Directors and the Board of Control ?" It affords,

pre•
sent system by its effects, and with that view _ just
glance at this question of finance. In 1833 the public debt
of India was 38,0./0,0001. Now it had risen to 53,000,0691.,
being an addition of 15,000,0001. ; but then in 1833 there
were only 8,400,000!. of balances in the Indian exchequer,
whereas now the balances in the Indian exchequer were
15,000,0001.; so that deducting this surplus of 6,600,0031
from the 15,000,0001. apparent increase, it followed that the
actual addition to the debt was only 8,400,000/., and that
after the Affghan war, the Burmese war. the Punjaub woe,
and the war in Scinde, four of the most expensive and most
important wars in which we had ever been engaeed in
India, and all of them conducted to a most successful con-
clusion, with an addition of only 8,400,000/. to the public
debt. (Hear, hear.) But the debt must always bear some
relation to the revenue, and when they were told there
was so much due on the one hand they naturally were
led to ask, " What have you on the credit aide
of the account to meet it?" In 1831 the debt wrs as he had
said, 38,000,000/., and the revenue was 18,500,0001. Now
the debt was 53,000,0001., and the territorial lucerne, the
revenue of the East India Company in India at this
moment,was 29,000,L001., so that if the debt had increased by
40 per cent., the revenue had increased by 55 per cent.
Nor could it bo said that this addition to tho revenue was
consequent upon increased taxation. On the contrary, the
most oppressive tax—the salt tax—had been reduced since
1831 by 25 per cent.; and the next in importance, the
ectroi duties, had been remitted, and the whole of thee
transit duties had been abolished. So much in reference to
finance—but his hon. friend had adverted to the patronage
tithe directors—he (Sir J. Graham) had already expressed
his opinion of how, in the main, the patronage of the direc-
tors had been exercised. Ilis hon. friend the chairman
of the committee would correct him if he was wrong,
but he thought he might boldly state that with every desire
to bring evidence of malv:rsetien in the distribution of
patronage before the committee no such evidence had been
brought forward, while on the other hand ho had shown
that in the case of the civil as in that 'Atilt) military service,
the most distinguished servants of the company, if they had
not been dra vu from the aristocracy,
Cunha' parvis et pauper° terra
Missies in imperum magnum.
—Malcolm Munroe, and others—they might change
the system and remove from it if they could 'those
imperfections of which they complained, but his belief was
that better or more able men would not be sent out under any
system than those who, during the last &O years, had been
employed in the civil and military service of the Indian
government under the system that at present ex-
acted. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the system
of canvass, he did not think it had been shown
that it was for the advantage of the compary. And why ?
Because some of the most distieguished men in Indian
affairs had been excluded by it. That system had been
condemned by Mr. Shepherd, the vice-chairman of the
East India Company, and Mr. Willoughby. Mr. Wilber-
force Bird and Mr. Robertson had declared against it; and
in short, the whole weight of authority was decidedly
against it. After expressing approval of the mode of open-
ing the patronage, and drawing a distineiou between the
military and scientific appointments', he said be thought the
patrouage of the army might safely be confined as pro-
posed. But his hon. friend (Mr. Cobden) had said that the
arrangements in respect to the disrosal of patronage would
be fatal to the extensive employment of natives. lie had
mentioned the names of Elphinstone, of Malcolm, and of
Munroe, with reference to their advocacy of the employ-
ment of natives, and he might remark that Lord Witham
Bentinck, when he went out to India, found that the natives
were scarcely ever employed in the service of the govern-
ment, and it was his firmness that gave c fleet to the pro-
posal for their further employment. But did the East India
Company reject his interference in this respect? Far from
it. The hon. member for lioniton had read a despatch to
the house in which they gave their entire approval to the
system introduced by Lord W. Bentinck. And with regard
to Malcolm, Munroe and Elphinstone, he believed, if it
had been stated to them in 1833 that the native' of India
would be employed to the extent they were employed in
1853, their most sanguine hopes would not have led them to
believe that so great a change would have been quietly
effected in so short a time. (Rear, hear.) lie would not
weary the house by arguing in favour of the covenanted
and uncovenanted service of the East India Company. Ile
attached the utmost importance to the maintenance of this
distinction. Ile believed they could not depart from it in
the civil service, and retain it, in the militia., service. lie
knew not, a priori, that he should have been disposed to draw
the distinction between the covenanted and uncovenanted
service if the system were now to be formed fur the
first time ; but finding it drawn and maintained up to the
present time, he said it would be the greatest indiscretion
to break it down. lie did not believe they could open the
covenanted service to the natives with regard to the civil
appointments, and not open it also as to the military ap-
pointments; and, in the present state of India, he thought
few would be found to advocate the opening of the cove-
nanted appointments in the military service to the nativee.
(Rear, hear.) lie would not push the topic further, but
left it to the natural sense of discretion of every hon. mem-
ber who heard him, whether his conscience would not tell
him that we ought to be careful before we interfered with
the present system in reference to the distinction between
the covenanted and uncovenanted services. With respect
to the judicial appointments, in 99 cases out of every
100 they were adjudicated upon in the first instance by
native judges—that was 95 out of every 100 of the original
--- and 99 - '• '•

I think, a great additional security for discussion and con-
sideration. By rendering tho consent of two distinct
authorities necessary, you, in the first place, secure dis-
cussion between these two. The initiative being given
to ono body and a veto to the other, and the body over
which the veto can be exercised having in reality no sub-
stantial power, except that which it derives from the force
of its reasons, it is under very strong inducements to put
reason on its bide if it can. If the despatches which origi-
nate with the Court of Directors are not well grounded in
ream n, they carry no weight with the board. The Court
of Director.) doe s not anti cannot exercise any effective
share in the government, except in so far as it takes care
to have reason on its side. Having this instrument of
power, and no other, it has the strongest motise to use that
instrument to the utmost ; and in doing so, it is a most effi-
cient cheek upon the body which has the ultimate power,
because that body being sure to have all subjects brought
before it, with the result of the full consideration and con-
centrated judgment of a body which, from its constitution,
has commonly that special knowledge and information which
the President of the Board of Control in general has not,the
president is under great inducement not to set aside the judg-
ment of this comparatively well informed body unless he can
give as strong or stronger reasons on the contrary side."
That is the exact check that exists, the check of the rea-
soning of an independent body, over aservant of the Crown
who in the last resort possesses all the real power. I do
not believe that any secretary of state possesses more real
power in a moment of emergency than does the President
of the Board of Control over our Indian empire, subject
only to the cheek, that if those well informed upon Indian
questions offer well grounded objections to any coursche may
feel inclined to take, he must urge adverse reasons, and
his ultimate responsibility will be very much in-
creased by his rejection of the reasons tendered to him.
There is the principle of double government stated in terms
more forcible than any I could hope to bring to the elu-
cidation of the subject. But to revert to the test of
judging of the tree by its fruit. I bad tho good
fortune to assist the Duke of Wellington and a
late right honourable friend in the government in
a moment of great danger. There had been failure,
almost for the first time, in the history of our Indian wars
in Afighanistan. At that time Jellallabad was besieged,
Candabar beleaguered. The fate of the future, the move-
ments of the advancing army, was held in the balance, and
what was the proud result of the proceedings that then
took place ? We have heard something about a question
put elsewhere as to whether the son of a horse dealer might
be sent out to India. At this time the officers of
the Queen's army had met with a great disaster ;
but there were two of the company's officers in
command on the opposite frontier of Affghanistan—
one General Pollock, the other General Nott. (Cheers.)
Who was it retrieved the disaster of the Queen's officers ?
It was General Pollock, who I believe will not be offended
when I state that he was the son of a humble shopkeeper
in the City of Londoa, while General Nett was the son of
a publican in a remote corner of Wales. (Cheers.) How
did General Nett ictrieve the honour of this country?
It was left open to hint either to retreat through the Bolan
Pau, or to advance to the capture of Ghuzoee. He hesi-
tated not a moment, his decision was to advance, and the
world knows the result. (Hear, hear.) What
was the decision of General Pollock in a situation
of equal difficulty ? He found his army dispirited,
and be was pressed by the garrison of Jellallabad,
to advance to its relief. but he bad the moral courage to
resist all such pressure until the confidence of his army bad
been restored, and never were the expressions " cunctando
restituit rem " morejustiy applied than in his case, for it
was his fate afterwards to retrieve in the Bala Hisser the
fortunes of the British army. (Cheers.) Let us judge of
the tree by its fruits. I had the advantage of being the
colleague of Sir R. Peel and the Duke of Wellington when
the government of India was last settled ; and I am sure
that if they were alive they would be the first to counsel
you cot hastily to tamper with a system & Bich had
produced such fruits. What then took place? After
the disasters of Cabool the army retired, snd we
had to encounter that which I will not say was
appalling, for British hearts in India never were ap-
palled—but still a danger which would have daunted moat
men. We had Delhi threatened ; our forces, not surprised,
but for a moment finding it necessary to retreat ; two bat-
tles fought with results not decisive, Moodkee and Fenn-
shah ; but then came the triumphant victory of Sobraon,
when it fell to the lot of Lord Hardinge to decide the fate
of an empire—
"— Super et Garamantas et Indos
Proferet imperium."
- - - -

Here again, I say, we may. judge a system by its fruit.
(Cheers.) In the civil service we have heard of Malcolm
and of Elphinstone, whose achievements in peace were no
less valuable than those which I have recounted to you in
war. My right hon. friend the member for Edinburgh al-
luded to a speech of Lord Grenville respecting the civil ser-
vice of India. Give me leave to allude to a speech made
by my right hon. friend the late Sir Robert Peel 20 years
ago of wkich I cannot recollect the exact words, but of
Which the following is the substance Under this sys-
tem you have had men administering government
to millions of your subjects. You bare had
some leading victorious armies and dictating terms
of peace to mighty natiens. You have had
others administering the revenues of vast provinces, or
residing at the courts of tributary kings, and yet these men
have returned to their native country with 13tle more than
a docent competency, and sometimes even in absolute
poverty." (Hear, hear.) That was the bead of Malcolm,
and it is to this hour the boast of Moan:BMW Elphinatone ;
and I can only say that if you are to judge of a tree by its
fruits, your Indian system is a tree that ought not to be
hastily cut down. (Cheers.) Dig up the ground ; trench
it if you will, but do not pull it down, for believe me, it is
sound at heart, arid on the whole is the type of good
government. (Loud cheers.) It may require improve-
ments, and we have endeavoured to improve it. I have
already shown how extensive ere all our alterations, but I
will not waste your time by going into details. I should
like, however, before I sit down, to make some observations
reepecting what fell from my hon. friend the member for
the West Riding. He said he could not call to recollection any
cue in which a Governor-General had devoted himself to the
improvement of India, but that all had been engaged in
constant and expensive wars. Oa that point I can speak
myself as a witness. It has been my fortune to know five
Governors-General, and my earliest and valued friend, Lord
William Bentinck, went out determined that his go-
vernment should be peaceful, and it pleased Pro-
vidence Oa he should be enabled to carry out
his resolution. His whole period of office was pacific.
I have known four other Governors-General. I have known
Lord Auckland, I have known Lard Ellenborough, I have
known Lord If ardinge, and I know Lord Dalhousie—and
I can speak positively of these four Governors-General,
that their intentions were most decidedly the same as those
of Lsrd Bentinck. It was their firm intention on
entering upon the government of India to avoid the cause
of war, and peacefully to administer the affairs of that
country. Upon this point I entirely concur in the testi-
mony of my right hon. friend the member for Stamford,
and believe that one and all of these Governo:a General
took every care to avoid war; and I am equally confident
that it wee not the home government, not the Queen's '
ministers, nor the Court of Directors, the:, urged upon those
Govemors•General the policy of departing from their
peaceful intentions. It was not British policy, but Indian
necessity, that induced these wars in which they were
forced to engage. All of them were undertaken from a
sense of coming danger—from an oiawhelming necessity
acting upon the Governors-General on the spot, overriding
their peaceful intentions, and iu the discharge of a duty
from which they did not shrink they reversed their pacific
policy by the necessities of the empire they were governing,
and were driven to war. But my hon. friend, the member
for the West Itidieg, quotes from the declaration of Lord
Dalhousie in favour of annexation. That is the very cir-
cumstance to which I allude, as Indian necessity—the ne-
cessity of such an empire as we havo in India, which
despite the self denying ordinances and the determination of
the Governor-General to maintain a strictly peaceful policy,
drives him to the adoption of a contrary course.. It is in
the nature of au empire so large, with a frontier
so extensive, and so exposed that with the
strongest desire to avoid war, and net needlessly to add to
territory already almost unmanageably large, the very
necessities of the case will overturn all preconceived

cases,a-iia 59 out of every 100 in the whole were adjudiCisted
upon in the first instance by native judges. And, whereas
in 1833, there was scarcely a native holding a magisterial
appointment excepti one, at this moment the chief magis-
trate of Calcutta was a man of colour, receiving a salary of
1,5001. a year. At present the great body of the native
judges were in receipt of salaries varying from 1,5001 down
to 3001., while in 1833 he much doubted, if there was any
native magistrate receiving a salary equal to the lowest of
them sums. Upon the whole he was persuaded that the
desire on the part of the government of India, as upon the
' part of the Governor. General, was sincere, gradually to in-
' traduce more and more, the native+ into the public service
of their country, andj he entirely concurred with his right
hon. gentleman, the President of the Board of Control,
that no apprehension of imaginary dange- should induce
them to act with injustice to the people of
India by withholding from them any share of
the management of pubhc affairs for which their education
and talents fitted them; but, on the other hand, he hoped
that the house would not, from fanciful notions of equal
Fovernmett, for which the country might :be unsuited, be
induced to sanction any innovations of an untried and dan-
gerous character, but that they would consent to the second
reading of the bill, the government having every disposi-
tion to meet, in considering its details, in a spirit of perfect
candour, those who might differ from them upon points of
detail, but he was satisfied no more dangerous course could
be taken in critical circumstances like the present than to
reject the measure, and rejection would necessarily be the
result of the adoption of the noble lurd'e amendment.
(Bear, hear.) (The:whole of the latter part of:the right bon.
baronet's speech was most indistinctly heard in the gallery,
owing to his turning round and addressing almost every sen-
tence to the hon. member for the West Hieing, whose argu-
ments he was answering.)
Sir H. MADDOCK thought that the throwing open of
the civil and scientific services to competition was the best
part of the bill. Ile would also have wished to see • much
larger number of military upponements taken out of the
hands of the directors. The Gaverner.Oeneral ought to have
enlarged power. in all administrative matters; old to the
present restriction of his powers was to be attributed the
neglected state of the public works and defective educa-
tional arrangements. He gave aqu :Med approval of the
bill, and supported the eccond reading in tee hope that
the objections would be remedied in committee.
The house, which had been rapidly thinning' during Sir
Herbert's speech, was nearly empty at its conclusion, the
opposition side, from which Sir Herbert spoke, being occu-
pied by only five members.
Mr. G. J. PUILLISIO HE next mode a long speech, in
which he took a general review of Inchon grievances, as
calling imperatively for redress, and for wlach lie con-
sidered the measure of the government wholly inadequate.
Mr. Philiimore, who had made a way similar speech in the
course of a former debate, did not cautribute materially to
fill the house.
Mr. M. MILNES followed under more favourable cir-
cumstances, and made a defence of the government measure
in 311 respects, except that relating to competition for call:Ts
in the civil service, which he did not think would prove so
successful as had been anticipated.a

notions, end compel the adoption of a policy the very re- Mr. BRIGHT said it would be well if the houe h.-
verse of that which had been determined upon. My hon. its attention to the question before it—that ques:ion being
friend is shocked at the notion of annexing territory, as wbetber they should take the bill of the right hon.
i
being characteristic of despotic forms of government, but gentleman (Sir C. Wood) or postpone all perms.
has he not heard of annexations of territory by governments nent legislation far India fur two years—passina if
that are not despotic ? I think I have heard statements mere continuance bill which tray to be in force till lafe.
emanating from a republican rovernment of the necessity That, he believed, was practically the meauiug of the
of enlarging their boundaries—having already included amendment proposed by the noble lord opposite. Mesa
Texas and a great portion of Mexico—so as to embrace all hear.) Even if the bill were less objectionable than it was,
the states on the North American continent. These are it would, in his opinion, be desirable to postpone permaa
the necessities of empire, and what is true of America is vent legislation. That was the opinion which prevailed
equally true'of Asia. This brings me to the further clues. almost universally in the house before the measere of the
tion, the occupation of Pegu. My hon. friend upon this government was brought forward. (Hear, hear.) net
point relies upon certain narrow facts tending to the Maze- was the opinion of the best informed, most ably conducted,
diate misunderstanding with Burnish end the government and widely circulated of the newspapers. And if he was
at ;Raagoon ; but the view my hon. friend takes in this not misinformed it was the opinion of the c.binet itself a
respect is narrow and unfair. It was not the answer sent week before the introduction of the measure. Then if
to Commodore Lambert that had been the occasion of the there was any credit to be given to the petitions from Cal.
war—that was but the last insult added to many that had mitts, Madras, or Bombay, whether corning teem the Chris.
gone before; and in the eyes of an Asiatic community tame Vim, Mohammedan, er Hinder) populations, all these
submission to insult studiously offered would beget a feel- petitions either asked for delay or they made statements
ing which might have been fatal to our whole Indian Em- from which they might infer that they were in favour of
pire. (Hear, hear.) Then my hon. friend says the pro- delay. (Ha:l..) Ile (Mr. Bright) suspected that there was
ceedings of Commodore Lambert show that the control of not a single member of the house in favour of the bill, un.
the Indian government over their officers is imperfect; lets it might lie the right hon. gentleman the President of
but if the government had disapproved of the conduct the Board of Control. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He
of Commodore Lambert he would have been instantly would not except even his own secretary (Mr. Lowe) who in
recalled and instantly reprimanded, and if any member of a most ingenious and proper manner evaded expressing any
this house had thought the executive government had approbation of the measure. (Hear, and laughter.)
exceeded its duly it would have been open to him to make a Even the honourable baronet the member for Iluniton,
motion upon the subject, and thus to make the government who spoke fur three hours on the introduction of
directly responsible to parliament. The right hon. baronet the bill, dia not say one word in its favour.
then proceeded to contend that a single government would He said legislate now, and give us the double government;
be no check to the evil complained of in respect to the but he did not utter a word crying that he liked the mea.
making of war. The case put was that the counter-cheek sure. Every one would say that who had any connection
of the East India Company was not efficient; hut supposing with the Court of Dlrectors and the system of government
ghat removed, and nothing was left but the direct action of pursued. The hon. harem t knew right well, if they de.
the government, there might be some greater promptitude, bayed legislation for two years longer, that all the Lord
but there would be no more efficient cheek. But ie held ltalhousies and Presidents of the Boards of Control in the
that they were about to introauce a system whici: would world would not persuade the° poanroliaintnenctanann,,dnp-reoewpleauedf
practically form an admirable check—that was the England to consent to this bill. (Hear, hear.) Ile knew
production in parliament of an annual statement by well that at the end of two years more the system would as
the responsible minis•er of the financial state or found out, and that tho government of the right hen. gen.
our Indian empire. This would give every member of the tleman and the bon. baronet, ol
house the opportunity of questioning the policy of the go- the other in Leadenhall-street, would be put an earl to.
vernment ; and as this question of finance was necessarily (Hear,) For there could be no doubt that the hon. baronet
intimately connected with that of British interests in India was a man of capacity, genius, energy, perseverance, and
generally, and also with the question of Indian wars, a he had by his ambition partly made himself master of the
better cheek, he thought, could not be propounded. (Hear, India House. (Hear.) He never saw an unfertonate
hear.) He wished not to were, Lilo boot° with dotoil., diiootnt of thotoompetiT, that he did not too the ho o mom.
but, as he had said, he desired to try the merits of the • her for Honiton astride upon his shoulders. (Cheers.)
' ' - -' - •he would T' ---- told that the owe— he .

They were that the geivernrucat had preserved the
people of India from external violence. That was true, but
they ought oleo to protect them from internal misrule and
disorder. (Hear, hear.) Ile had on a former occasion given
s one facts with respect to the quarrels of the zemicelsrs in
Bengal. He had since heard of another care in which two
xemindars entered the field with 500 men armed with
guns and pistols, and fought out their quarrels with the law
of several lives on both sides. Thew things, with the ex-
ception of the guns and Mettle, were so common that no
one took notice of them. There were deceits or gains
robbers by night, and zero:nil:ire' gear:els by day. (lleee3
Such was the internal state of Indian society amongst the
Bengalese, who were the weakest and the want docile
people in the wcrld, and the longest under the benignant
rule of the Bast India Company. (Hear, hear.) There
were mere damit era committed new in a single year la
Bengal than in five years 100 years ago. (Hear, hear.)
And such was the state of things on which such high mile-
giums had been passed. (Hear, hear) The hon. member
for Guildford did that which was very usual in matters of
this kind—lie defended the government by clef:oiling the
penile whom they oppressed. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
gentleman denied the competency of the naives to
hold the offices which they said they could fill,
and that the evil which they attributed to
a faulty system of administration was owing to
some inherent and constitutieaul di gravity in the people.
Perjury anti habitual lying were et eilnited to the people,
but he had the authority of Mr. Campbell fat seying
that a great deal of the perjury and lyi attributed to the
people of India was owing to our vicious judicial
(Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. Beielit) had received a
communication from a gentleman oho had been 20 years
in India two days after the right hen. gentleman delivered
his speech, in which he stated the the increase of perjury
was owing to our vicious judien.l =tem, cad that out of
the courts the people of India could be relic d upon for
telling the truth. (Hoar, bear.) Our judicial sys.
tem, therefore, was the fruitful source of this immorality.
They had heard a great deal of the great trunk road and
the Ganges Canal. He did not think they would ever cease
to bear of the erne trunk road. (Laughter.) That road
went from Calcutta to Benue', end for near 200 miles it
passed over jungle. It was, in fact, a military road for the
conveyance of troops, and could not be considered in any
sense a commercial road. Neither tehaceo, sugar, nor silk
pawed over that road, and it was not at all constructed
with a view to economical and cemsnsreial purposes. Mr.
Melvill was asked if the governor of tcngal ever took jour-
neys to survey the provinces, and his reply was th at he did not,
that no such journeys were undertaken for the last half-
century. Mr. a/anthem was asked the same question, and
he said that there were no roads on which he could travel.
clear.) The East India Company bad spent ouly
a,000,000/. on public walks since the act of 1833, whilst in
this country there was an expenditure for railways alone
of 101. per head for every mac, weman, and child in the
kingdom. (Cheers.) In Lancashire, with its two millions
of inhabitants, there were 20,000,0001. expended for rail-
ways alone ; whilst the East Itidia Company, with its
29,000,0001. of revenue, did not spend more than 5,000,0001.
in 20 years for its 100,000,000 of inhabitants. (Hear.)
Colonel Sykes, wise was . very darigerous !champion of the
company, said that the company expended 300,00 e/. a year
on public works. But the pc plc of Manchester had ex-
pended more for their internal improvement than the East
India Company with their vast empire. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. gentleman (Sir J. Hogg) did not appear to give them
full information on this matter, for there was a return of
the report of the commission appointed to investigate the
state of public works in Madrae, moved for by his hon.
friend (Mr. Hume), and though he understood that docu-
ment had been at the India House for six weeks at least, it
never was produced. (Hear, hear.) In 18+10 Lord Dal-
housie went to Bombay, and the merchants there remon-
strated with him on the state of the roads and public works.
The year before last the Chamber of Commerce of Man-
chester sent out a gentleman of high character and reaper•
tability to ascertain the real facts connected with this sub-
ject. Unfortunately, Mr. Mackay slid not live to finish
his report, hut the extracts from his papers corroborated
everything that he had said on this subject. (Hear, hear.)
The province of Guzerat was that from which the largest
portion of the cotton came ; it was as large as England,'
and had a population of five or six million inhabitants. Mr.
Mackay said, ~1 have mode an exact measurement of all
the roads in it, and they come to exactly 23; miles."
adding, that these roads were made, not fur agricultural
purposes, or for the people, but for the purposes of exercise
and amusement round about the stations where the soldiers
were settled. (Hear, hear.) With Guzerat might be con-
trasted the island of Java. Java was in the possession of
the Dutch, was about the size of England, and contained a
population of 10,000,000. Since 1810, there had been made
in that island 950 miles of excellent roads, travellable at all
seasons of the year. He would be glad to hear the differ-
; once between Guzerat and Java with respect to reads ex-
• plained. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman the
. member for Edinburgh had said all that could be said in
favour of this bill. There was one point, however, to which
• he directed the at.ention of the house without, perhaps,
l seeing the bearing of his own remarks. He told the house
that a collector was the actual governor of a large district,
containing, it might be, a million inhabitants, and that his
1 power was so despotic that he could banish cultivation and
r bring back the jungle where cultivation had existed. Tho
• idea was not original. He (Mr. Brie ht) had observed in
1850 that the power of a collector was such that he cola

either make or mar a district; and surely if there were
hundreds of collectors invested with such power it
was desirable that the government should be established
unsound principles, and that it should be such as would
subject all the civil servants in to cons:ant and watch-
ful supervision. (Hear, hear.) Within twenty years, it had
been stated, the collector of Lundelkund reduced a prove-
' roue province to the condition of a es ilderness. Fir 20 years
the evil proceeded in its course, without any check from the
government. In the province of Guzerat the collectors were
shown to have taken from 60 to 00 per cent. or the gross
produce of the soil. The hon. member for Honiton made
what seemed to him (Mr. Bright) a foolish observation,
when be said that if they could only have Manchester in-
telligence in India, great results would no doubt he obtained.
He could tell him what were the sentiments of Manchester
men ou that subject. If Englishmen clamoured
to go to India for 20, 2.5, or 30 years :it
salary ; if they were willing to give four or five thousand
pounds to buy an appointment, on resigning which they
would come hack on a pension of I,000:. a year, sorl. of
which had been deducted from their salaries, why would
not able, active, and energetic Englishmen go out and
settle down for the same period to agricultur►l pdattite,
the climate b.ing no greater ebjection to them than to the
soldier or the civil servant. Their not doing so was a
conclu,ive proof that it was, at present, impossible to invest
English capital in India to advantage. Ile (Mr. Bright)
said that the prospect as regarded Indian finance was
gloomy; the hon. baronet the member for Honiton (Sir J.
Hogg) said it was not, since with increasing debt there
was increasing revenue. He .(Mr. Bright) would have
thought that the test of good pees nment was increasing
revenue and diminishing debt. (Hear, hear.) The most
onbappy feature of Indian finance was that there was ne
elasticity in it. (Hear, hear.) The land-tax could not be
increased; and ai to the soap tax, which even the hon.
member for Hendon would admit to he meet cruel in its
operation, he saw• no prospect of its being repealed. What
would be tl.e state of thiagt if the opium revenue were
lost? (Hear, hear.) Now such being the fruits of the
tree, he 'reseal ask the house to look for a moment nt tho
constitution of the government; for he was not going to
shirk the examination of the bill, though none of its friends
would undertake to chew the beauty of its proportions,
the excellence of its principles, or the smooth
working of its machinery. They had, first of
all, a representation which violated every principle
of representation ; the constituents not having this slightest
interest in the coentry which they wished to govern. Ho
was told that there was a banker in the City of Loudon
who could at any time muster 300 votes at the India
House, and w hose voice at an election was absolute law.
The hots. member tOr lloniton would know to whom he
alluded. A highly respected member of that house had
related to him a fact which tended to illustrate the srtem.
He said that a relative of his having in India made him-
self intimately acquainted with almost everything that re-
lated to that country returned Lome with the view of
becoming a member of the direction ; but when he found
through what channel he must pass, what sup-
plications ho must make, by what promises he
must bo pledged, he declared that there was n 0

ow4a sit street in Landes that be would
aaer woes, far a livelihood than go into the Court of
-
theeeters en such terms. ( aug tee.) Of course all per-
,- s min not so parecular—(laughter)—but if the hon.
her for lial'olferd (Ile. Mangles) chose to unbosom
.ratelf, be could no doubt amuse the house for two hours
testi eterieset what to. le plan at a canvas.. Here, then,
person having no interest in India, who were to
443 ls gown:tag persons, while upon themselves would
roe 0.. respeasitolity whatever. (Hear, hear.) The general
• of et proprietors bad no control over the Court
;, „mess, ; the Court of Mentors had no con-
trol over the went committee, being genteelly ig-
*ern: Stitt they were about; and the secret
ese..sdite bad no control over the Board of Control, for
the L,n. somber for Ha:ilex could do what be pl used as
ensiled that commit!: e. nutty such a state etchings par-
wine itself was baffled and deluded. He defied any
of that heose to grapple with as Indian question
so be cull with any oreditary ccdoesial questi in ; sad his
vge;:leat alto regard to this bill was that it put a meek
epee the Rover/anent of their Indian empire. (Cheers )
Ile Lee. member for Henna (Sir J. W. Hogg) had asked
.he pirliane id slid not give back to the East India Com-
pity the IteehLooo/. spent in the Affghan war. Ile (Mr.
tirmh•) admittel that an expert.e incurred to gratify some
stac ul mums ul a insister in this country ought to be re-
pmd out of the Eselish exchequer, but he must sheen*
that no dire enr in Letdenball street raised ha voice at the
tine against the Aflghsia war, and therefore none should
Dow neck to throw the Name on the Board of Control.
((been.) Ow, Mike greatest cbjectiuns to the bill in its
rim shape, wee that it was to be passed fur an lode finite
rued. Ile was very much afraid that amid the multitude
sicuestiems that OZZIO up, Indian questions might to
at, -pas ; ter i: was not a modern saying—it ens as old
es the leech., of Mr. barbs—that the people of England
yard se ate noon ta India, unless some great emergency or
esLimity cancelled citation. He did sot like the bill any
get latter because it wee not to terminate at
the meiration of fire 'ears; on the contrary,
if it bed been proposed that it should Uml-
aute at the end of that period, his objection to it
wsuld lane been weakened by the consideration that dis-
cs...ea and additional information might secure greater
So bag as there were two governing bodies, nu et-
her in separate buildings, and carrying on their common-
Miens by mean of "nines documents, so long would then
be no dire: -espeaslaility, and so long would the govern-
ment of ladia, initial of being brought before that Mew.
hare to be sought for in the byeditre. ta anti lieu of Leeks.
Mr. Halliday. a gentleman who had been secretary ta the
government in India, said that among tolerably-informed
1,1197n0 is 'cell there was a growing desire that the two
'yeomen b elite might he made to act with greater har-
Reny and unanimity. He further said, " I should wish
tho entrant' at to be carried on avowedly in the name of
gee mow. ; I think it would very mach increase the weight
and authority of tee pavers:gent in India." ° Every
d .y'," he said, "I bare seen 14 disposition to exalt every-
thaqr that belongs to the crown over everything that be
logs fo the company." Was there a man in that home
wee disbelieved that? (Clams.) Was it not natural ? If
er .referied to India would not they thenseelvee rather live
LIUr the dignified power which ivied over their dossi•
than he ruled over by eighteen or twenty-four gen-
tlemen who had no sympathy with the people of lour` ?
(Hear, hear.) Ile believed that perilous lit WAS now lush..!
a ens: opportunity. He regretted that the messure bad
fallen into the bombe of a minister who did not appear
esp. Ne of comprehending the vastness of the question
wh:ch belonged to 11,a department; he wished he bad had
ev.n the anil.ouout to connect his name with a great,
gold, end comprehensive pleasure for the government of
their ledian possewiens. (Hear, hear.) By the course
they were taking they were ignoring their own constitu-
tion; they were ceetrog mud on those representative in-
stitutions which they professed to value so highly.
(Hear, bear.) It was said that the course pursued by the
opernents of the hill was factious. He did not believe a
word of It. To the contests which had been waged in
that house he attribut:d the vast superiority of this coun-
try over many others—(bear, hear)—and if there were
anything goad in any colony which was better or
more secure than it had been ho ascribed it to
constent essauhs of members ..f that house on the
governmeet of the day, and constant appeals to the
intellect, the judgment, and the benevolence of the
people of this country. (Hear, hear.) And, with re-
gold to the Indian empire, if it were said that having beta
conquered by force of arms it was to be governed only by
force and terror, and that the people of England were to be
shut out from considering questions which intimately cm-
ctrued the greatest dependency of the Crown, then, he said,
the glory of that house would have departed, and the nation
would have proved that, having conquered a country by
arms, they had not the intellect, the benevolence, or the
power, to govern it as it deserved. (Cheers.)
Mr. 11AltDINGE would vote for the second reading of
the bill, because he approved of the principle of double ge-
"element, and was anxieus for immediate legislation. He
was anxious for immediate legislation because he had fa.ih
in the opinion of Lord Dalhousie, of one whose acme he
was proud to bear, and in that of Lord Ellenborougb, who
had said it was time we put our house in order. He be-
lieved that most of the petitions which had been presented,
complaining of the rule of the company, contained greatly
exaggerated statements, and as he believed it would be im-
possible to overrate the danger of delay he should vote
against the amendment of the noble lord.
Several member; roes together, mid there was a general
soy of adjourn."
Sir 1. W. HOGG addressed himself particularly to
MI. Bright'. ..ennes..... *ea, vs eserarded the East India
Com any, repudiated with scorn an observation mad.. br '
that gentleman, that they were " revelling in corruption.
Me. Bright had quoted some points from the eridenc.) of
the late Mr. Alexander Mackay, with regard to which
Sir James now asked, Why were not Mr. Mackay's
papers produced ? That they had not been wee sag-
rune of a suspicion that this gentleman, the agent
of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, bad made
out a ease unfavourable to the Manchester view. Sir
James next referred to the attacks made on the judicial
system in India, and while admitting the imperfections of
that system, denied that the general condemnation was jus-
tified by any of the facts adduced. The great principle of
the bill was the Intervention of the East India Company
between the crown and the people of India, and this WM-
Potion he believed to be esuatial to protect that country
from the blighting influence of party politic., and the man..
Mance of the greatest, the richest, and the mightiest of
our benign posit salons.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR moved the adjournment of the,
debate, which was .agreed to.
CUSTOMS, &c., ACTS.
The house then resolved itself into committee on these
acts.
Sir R. INGLIS reminded tho Secretary of the Trea-
sury that there had been an understanding that there
should be a separate bill for the Isle of Man, whereas now
it appeared that the Isle of Man was to be incorporated in a
general customs law.
Mr. J. WILSON admitted that he bad given enemies
to the effect suggested ; but it had been ascertained sines
that it would be better to consolidate the whole of the Cus-
toms Acta into one measure. He had communicated with
the authorities of the bele of Man oh the subject,
and hail received their suggestions, which would
be attended to. The bill he proposed to bring
in wend be let on the table of the house,
that the country might have an oppottenty of fully con.
sidering it before the home was called upon to read it a mend
time. Great pains and attention had bees taken to aonso-
Late the customs laws into one act, and, though the lefee-
sun was a long one, it did not occupy one-fourth of the
space of the acts which it embraced and. consolidated. The
bill would be printed and in the hands of members on
Wednesday, and the government would then be happy to
receive any suggestions on the subject of it. He concluded
by moving the formal ',whin= for leave to introduce the
bill.

Sir J. WALMSLEY said that the people of the Isle of
Mari were decidedly adverse to the customs law of their
island being Melia& I in any general bill. They considered
tech a step an infringement of their privileges.
Mr. EWART believed also that the peoplo of that island
wen dissetidnl with the proposed arrangement.
The motion was then agreed to, and the bill Ma
brought in.
WEgTMINSTER BRIDGE BILL.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH moved the committee on dilo
bill.
Mr. ALCOCK objected that the proposed bill would is"
Wen with the navigation of the river, and urged the poet-
gatemen: of the h;11.
Si, W. MOLESWORTB replied that the bill had been
maturely considered by the select committee,_ and urged the
superior importaree of the entitle over the bridge to that
ping cider the bridge. The only vessels that would be
saccunineded by the new bri, ge were a few straw barges,
wltch would have to puck their cargos somewhat
lower to pen through the arches. The number
of vehlees that paned over the present bridge between 8
is the owning lad tf at night, was 4,441, dawn by 9,600
honer, vain the number of vessels passing under it was
Vs only, of which 11l were steamboats, 122 boats, 114
barges, and 42 or.ty were sailing barges and billyboys.
Aster a brief discussion the house resolved itself into
enntatttee.
D.NORRE YS considered the mite a/the new bridge injn-
iLe.oas4 chosen. It ought to be placed near to Charing-cross.
In answer to a question put by an flux. MEMBER,
Air W. MOLLSWOMTM stated that the new bridge
would be built of stone and iron.
The remaining chines then passed through committee.
NEWsPAPER STAMP DUI lES BILL.
Mr. WILSON moved that this bill be read a second
time.
Mr. M. GIBSON of to proceeding with it at so late
an hear (half past one), and
Mr. WILSON withdrew his motion, and appointed
Thonsdsy nest for the second readiag.
MALICIOUS INJURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion that this bill be read a third time,
Mr. FITZGERALD proposed that it be read a third
time that day sin month,.
(I. Di:NNE tht.ught that it would he better to adjourn
tae cessideration of this question, and he therefore moved
fist the debate be adjourned.
The mtiouniment of the debate having been negatived
without a division,
IL: house divided upon the third real:ng. The numbers

---
For the third reeling
Apiest
The bed was then read a third tante.
ASSISIANT JUDGE (MIDDLESEX SESSIONS)
DILL
The report on th',. hill was brourht up and agreed to.
L'Al tEIISEA PALM BILL
Tail bju went though committee, and the hope
seemed.