The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-09 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS. TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 9, 1847.

musks. (Hear, bear.) But he hit that thirpoiox they were
' then discussing, both on its own account, and with reference
to its Incidental bearing on permanent legislation, was cute of
very great importance indeed. (Hear, hear.) He would
observe that the origituil Irish Poor-law imderwent s very
material change in 1843, when with the concurrence of a inajo-
rityof Irish memhs rs, and ailecided majority of that boos., ne
introduced into it r'principle similsr to, if not identical with.
the law of settlement in England. It was then provided
that a peron who had not lived eighteen months within an
electoral district as tenant, or slept within it the greater por-
, tion of a year, should not be entitled to relief Prim the divi-
sion, but when claiming relief without these requisites,
should be relieved at the expense of the union. He wan of
opinion that in deciding on this temporary measure it should
he ki pt quite distinct from permanent legislation, and there-
fore tie should reserve fur future discussion his opinion
u t• whether the relief of the ahle-bodiei in work-
houses should fall ou the electoral divisions, or on the
unions. This clause, which was of a temporary nature,
did not give power either to the poor-law coinmissioners or to
the guardians, but to a temporary relief commission sitting
in Dublin, appointed by the lord-lieutenant, and to relief
committees in each electoral division. They must consider
the present circurnstani es of Ireland. Ile teared that with
all the assistance thy could possitile give, the present mea-
sure would be apprt esive on the rote-payee. Five hur.dred
and eighty thousand men were now employed on the public
works, wnoen legitimate emplovmetit was the tilling of the
soil. Seed time wet approaching, and it was most im-
portant that these men should return to their legitimate
labour within ten weeks. The present m asure had that
object in view, and, therefore, tartlet* he heard strung reasons
to the conte try, he thou d give it his support, and resist the
amendment of the hon. member our North Northampton-
shire. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW suggested that, under present circumstances
his hon. friend should withdraw his amendment. (Hear,
hear.) As a ix naanent fueeeore he should oppose the sub-
stitution of 111110,111 for elect ral divisions.

......
Mr. LABOUCHKRE expressed his hope that nothing
would be done unnetaesitrily to protract the discussion.
A short discussion followe.l, in the course of which Mr.
Smith O'Briee, Mr. D Browne, and Sir W. Verner spoke
in favour of the amendment, and Mr. B,:lew, though agree-
ing in principle with Mr. Stafford O'Brien, stated that, fer
the reasons given by minister., he should vote for the claute;
when Sir It. Ferguson, who warned government against
spreading the rate for these advances over the unions at
large, urged upon the hon. member tot Northamptonshire
to withdraw his amendment ; which he consented to do,
urn the understanding that he and those who agreed with
him on the subject should nut be consider•d as pledged to
the principle of the clause in any general measure that
might be hereafter brought forward. Lord J. Manners,
Mr. Osborne, and Mr. Gregory subsequently expressed their
opinions that the effect of throwing the rate over the union
at large would be to stop the contributiobs of the landlords.
The clause was then agreed to, as were climate. 13 and 15.
' On Clause 16, which provide for the repayment of loans,
Mr. HAMILTON observed that when he waited upon the
noble lord ; t the head et the government, as one of a depu-
tation, he stated that the Irish landlords were desirous of
repaying whatever advances might be made, and he was now
anxious that the most stringent measures for the due repay-
ment of the money should he provided. There was every
disposition on the part of the Irish people to pay whenever
they had the ability to do so. He would suggest that word.
should be introduced giving to the relief commissioners of
the government the power of requiring the repayment of the
advances by instalments. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
would be se -c-asary, in another bill, to provide for the re-
payment ot• the advances, and to take the necessary powers
for that purpose. As to the present bill, it was proposed that
a rate should be levied en presentment upon the rate-payers
when they were able to pay, and that it should be made by
those who had the distribution of the fund. If the subscrip-
tions should be sufficient the rate would be unnecessary, if
not it would be resorted to. . .

cedar of the Exchequer was asking the house to grant money
for the relief of Ireland, and It could not be doubted that he
had not made a calculation tithe expense, or, it he had, it
was so large that he would not tell It.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
hon. gentleman was mistaken as to the purport of the clause,
and it he had waited till the chutes were regularly brought i
up he would have saved himself the asking of this quer.
tion and two speeches. lie (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) woeM bring up a clause which limited advances
tram the Consolidated Fund to 300,00 W., which has been
voted three or four days ago. In the second clause which he
should bring up power would be given to the commissioners
of the treasury to make grants from time to time, which
would be voted by the house in committee of supply, and
they would sot be pledged to any sum beyond that which
was comprised in each vote, but the clause gave ag, neral
power to grant what was from time to time voted. To
30,0001. the house was pledged, and nothing more, hut the
whole SUM required for the year he was not prepared to
state to-night,although he would do so on this day fortnight.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN (who was very indistinctly heard)
was understood to say that he should like to know where
was to be the end of this unproductive expenditure. They
were going on from week to work, and month to month,
spending enormous sums without any reproductive result.
the substitute provided by this bill was not sufficient to pro-
ride for one-third of the people. How were the 500,000
labourers who were taken off the roads to be provided for?
Although the noble lord, the member for Lynn, said he
could find work for 100,000 ; he did not see where was
to be the end of tire expenditure. After the harvest,
unless capital was applied to assist the resources of the
country, and unproductive expenditure was removed, the ex.
pent,c would be greater next year, and there would be no end
to the drain on toe resources of the country and Ireland, for
the drain was as great on Ireland as on England. He again
asked what prospect tine: was of a termination of thi. ex-
penditure ?
Mr. F. FRENCH said that with reference to the expen-
diture which was required from both countries, each of them
would feel an interest in • satisfactory answer being given to
the question of the bun member for Bath ; but he could not
conceive that the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer ought not to be in a position to answer.
He might be able to 'peak of what he ex-
pected for the next six weeks ; but, in order
to attach any value to an answer from the right hon. gentle-
man before he could arrive at any satisfactory conclusion, it
would be necessary to consider all the effect of all the
different bids, regard bring had to the proportion of the
population that could be employed by the landlords under
the Improvement Bill, and consideration being given to the
other measures for the reclamation of waste lands, emigra-
tion, and the sale of estates.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL said that, as loans were to be
granted on the security of the rates, and as it took two
months to make and collect them, it would be desirable to
give greater facility in striking the nitre and getting them
paid, and also to enable the collectors to call on the landlord
to p.iy his proportion first, and not the lenant.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the

Lord CLEMENTS, as an honest man, could not sit there
and hear the poverty of Ireland pledged for the repayment
of these debts. It was physically impossible for them to pay.
He was willing to do his part as a landlord, but he would
tell them, if this money was to be repaid the government
must provide the means for paying it. (Much laughter.) He
did not mean they must give them the money to pay with ;
hut what he asked for was legislative means. (Hear.) He
heard the landlords abused on one side and defended on the
other. He looked with as utter contempt upon the abuse
as upon the—(a laugh t—he begged pardon for saying so,
an upon the means taken to defend them. (Hear.) If go-
verement were desirous that these advances 'Mould be repaid,
and the property of Ireland, instead of being • burden on
England, should he made answerable far its debts, the legis
lature must put the landlords in e position in which they
would have power over their own property. (Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK said it was important to call upon the
government to de .1 with the House of Commons in this case
in the way in which the House of Commons was accustomed
to be dealt with. The two great objects of the bill were not
yet reached. They had decided upon the way in which the
relief should be granted, but not what the relief should
be. He wished to put an explicit question to the Chancellor
of the Exch.:gee r. By the 14th clause of this bill it was pro-
vided that temporary advances should be made out of the
growing produce of the consolidated fund of any sum °retains
of mosey by way of imprest, to be applied by way of loan. By
a resolution of the house, passed some days since, 300,0001,
was to be advanced. By the 17th clause, grants were to be
made in aid of rates and contributions. He wanted to
know if it was in the recollection of any member of the
house—he did not care if he was the oldest in experience
—that any Chancellor of the Exchequer ever came down
to the house on any great occasion and demanded mouev
without explaining that at lust he had 'made a rough esti-
mate of the RIM he required, and the mode of raising the
money so demanded. This was a meat important question.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer knew that if he was to say
that he was about to raise it by an increase of the Income-
tax that he would raise a flame from one end of the kingdom
to the other; not, perhaps, in Ireland, where it was not
paid—(" hear," and laughter}—but it would in England
and Scotland. If the money was to be raised by loan, would
it not have a most important effect ? He wanted to know
how it was to be done. In justice to the people of England
they ought to know. It should nut be lent to Ireland,
for it would not be paid. lie had a right to demand what
the calculation was. Some calculation must have been
made. The Chancellor of the Exchequer could not dare to
come down to the house with such a proposal without it.
He wanted to know what was the rough calculation ; what
was the sum he expected to require for the present exigency?
It was a fair guration, and he expected an explicit answer;
he demanded it in the name of the people of England. He
would not wait for the budget to hear that which ought to
have been told keg ago. He had been astonished—he
might say astounded at the patience of the bon. member
for Montrose (Laughter.) That hon. member had put
this question in so mild a form that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had said that he would tell him some day or
other. He (Mr. Roebuck) wished that he would show some
of the vigour of his earlier days, and force the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to tell that which he was bound as •
member of the government to do. He (Mr. Roebuck)
wished that the right hon. gentleman should nut merely
enjoy the honour of being Chancellor of the Exchequer,
but that he should be bound by some of the obligations of
the office. Let him meet the question and the difficulty
fairly, and as was his deny—let him say these are the ditli-
culties and these the means by which it is proposed to meet'
them and to ream the money. It was for the house then, if
they did not agree with him, to say so ; but it was not lair
to go on with the petty detail of this bill till that great ques-
tion was settled. No one had been able to get at what the
I expense of this measure would b, to Engird. He de-
mended an answer to this question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. gentleman had put the question to hint in • very
I pointed way, as if he had declined or refused to answer
him ; but the hon. gentleman had not before put the ques-
tion in any way. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
had never shrunk from it, and he did not think there was
any part of his conduct which called for such a mode of
putting the question. It was perfectly true that such a
question had been put to his noble friend at the head of the
government, and he had given the only answer which he
thought he was justified in giving. He (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) did nut think he was justified in stating to-
night that which would form part of the statement he should
have to make a fortnight hence with regard to the MUM re-
quired for the year, and the mode of providing them. He
could state what had been the expenses up to the present
time. The sum advanced since September to the end of
January was 2,000,0001. The rams presented by grand jury
presentments, from Ist January, 1546, war 120,8001.; and
the presentments made from the Ist September were
1,372,0001., of which 476,0001. had been sanctioned by the
treasury. The presentment session, in various parte of Ire-
land, under 9th Vic., had presented 6,127,0001. to be levied
in Ireland. The expenditure which had been sanctioned by
the treasury was 2,600,0001. a portion of which had been
expended, amounting to 2,000,0001. from September up to
the end of January. What would be necessary between this
time and next August it was impossible to say. In the
month of January 1,000 000/. had been expended, but the
sum required would bar reduced in the eprin , when a consi-
derable portion of labour would be absorbed by field culti-
vation, and when another system was auberituted for the
Labour Rate Act; and the same amount of money would
go much further. It was no doubt necessary that there
should be ready 300,0001. from the consolidated fund, and it
was proposed that other soon shoull be from time to time
issued, by grants from parliament, to be voted in Committee
of Supply ; but they would never be pledged to more than
the 300,0001. to which they were now pledged by this bill,
and no more would he taken except by vote in supply. On
this day fortnight it would be necesery for him to elate what
he expected to have to provide for the expenditure of the
year, and the mode in which it au to be raised.
Mr. ROEBUCK assured the right hon. gentleman that
there was nothing unusual in his mode of putting
his question, nor did he mean to do so in an I
offensive mann-r. He had asked what would be the
probable expenditure under this bill, and he 'as answered
by a statement of the expenditure under another—doe l're.
sentment bill. It was said by the right hon. gentleman that
under this bill the sum was limited to 300,000/. ; but in the
17th clause it was stated that the conunesioners of the trea-
sury might issue from time to time out of the consolidated
fund any sum or sums of money to be granted under regula-
tions and conditions as they thought fit. No definite sum
was named. The right hon. gentiernan could not say he had
given an answer to his (Mr. Roebuck's) cr teatime. He
wanted to know if he hail made a calculation of the expen-
diture necessary for maintaining Ireland 11l long as this hill
was in operation. He could not say it was only 300 0001.,
and the people of England would not be satisfied with thia
answer—a mere technical reply. The house was rhea
to vete money in the dark ; they did nut kiery how much
they would he rolled on to grant under this hill lie he ped
that members who represented the people would require an
answer, and he felt himself bound to demand it. The Chan-

commissioners of the treasury were only to grant loans if
they saw fit.
Lord CLEMENTS thought there should be greater
facility Riven to striking the rate.
Mr. E. DENISON said that as the house was on the
question of voting money under this bill, he thought it a
proper opportunity to Pay that there was another question
which had excited great attention. Reference had been
made to the question of rating, and it was desirable to know
what was the intention of the government with regard to
the poor-law bill for Ireland. He bed woudered at the
silence maintained on this subject in the house. Much had
been said both within and without the house of the inten-
tions of certain parties with reference to that bill. If he
rightly understood the sentiments of the English and
Scotch members, they had acquiesced in the measures
of the government on the distinct understanding
that there should be an efficient poor-law for Ire-
land ; and the Irish members acquiesced in them,
because they met the exigences of the moment, and
with the understanding that the Poor-law Bill, as proposed
by the government, could not pan in its present shape, and
must be strongly resisted. Ile questioned if the Poor-law
Bill, now en the table, was substantially supported by the
government, and would be carried into effect. They had
heard to-night things that looked ominous for that bill. He
' wished to know the intentions of the government on this
subject before the money was voted.
Sir G. GREY thou lot that the hon. gentleman had asked
a very extraordinary question. That bill was ordered to be
brought in by his noble friend at the head of the govern-
ment,
by the Secretary for Ireland, and himself. It had
passed the second reading, and stood fur committee for an
early day, and the government meant to go on with it, Till
the lion. gentleman asked this question he did not know that
there was any notion to the contr .ry.
Mr. SHAW wished to ask the hon member for Bath what
he really meant ? (Laughter.) What d:d he desire ? The
right hon. gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
stated that it was impossible to tell him exactly the sum re-
quirwl under these bills. The landlords of Ireland had voted
6,000,0001. Was that doing nothing ? In his barony they
had voted more than the fee-simple. Did the hon. member
fir Bath desire the people of Ireland to starve ? The land-
lords paid what they could, and as much a, the extent of their
property would bear. Asfia as their inclination was concerned
they did not shrink from liability. Did the hon. member
wish the government to let the Irish people starve ! This
was an awful national calamity, and should he dealt with
nationally. Let the landlords be as bad as they might, was
that a reason for letting the people starve. The only object
of the hon. member must he to impede this measure by
every means in his power. Were the Irish people to die ?
It came to that! While they were talking there, they were
starving. (Hear, hear.) He was unwilling to rise
and say a word, because the government was doing
its duty to meet this crying evil. Did not the hon. member
believe, that in the remote districtsof Ireland, the people
were dying by thousands? The landlords did all that they
could; they bad pledged their whole property. If the p, o.
ple were not to starve let them measures go on—for while
they were disputing de people were starving.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the right hon. gentleiran was a
judge, and he said that he would put one question to him,
whereas, he had put three, and one of them with
an inuendo. As a judge he ought not so put it. Was it
honest ?__

Mr. SHAW : Perfectly.
Mr. ROEBUCK: Was that the way the right hon. gen-
tleman acted as a judge ? (Oh, oh.) Was that the proper
way to put a question ? He wanted the government to
provide efficient food for the people of Ireland to
prevent their starving, but in so doing to pledge all
the property of Ireland for the repayment of the
debt; and when the right honourable gentleman talked
of common prudence, he would say, that the Irish gentlemen
showed more than common prudence in their presentments.
They were always told that this was an uncommon occasion
and must be met by uncommon means. The gentlemen of
Ireland had so mat it. They had pr, Dented 6,000,0001.,
which they had borrowed of us. They had heard what was
the expense of one month, and the people of England
knew It; and he was standing there on behalf of
the honest artisans of England against the landlords of
Ireland. He vas not opposing a generous provision for the
Irish poor. He wished it. He agreed with the hon. mem-
ber for Melton, that there had been ominous statements in
that house as regarded the Irish poor. He wished for a
provision for the Irish poor hereafter. He would mortgage
Ireland for iu poor, and care nothing about the landlords.
He had a right to look to the poor of that country
and of our own, fir from our hard earnings would
these sums be 1, rived, and they should go only to the Irish
poor. Every English member in that house was prepare d
to vote this money tur the Irish poor, but not for the land-
lords. The right hon. gentleman esid this was a national
calamity, and let it be dealt with by a national tax ; but
that would not suit him (Mr. Roebuck), nor would it suit
the Irish people. He pledged himself that this session
should not pass without an endeavour to obtain
a stringent poor-law for Ireland, which was most
distasteful to the landlords. It was an insult to him to say
he wanted the Irish people to starve. He wanted no such
thing • ho wan'ell a generous subsistence for them, nod he
would pledge all the property of the landlords for the re-
payment of the money provided for the pour whom they had
so shametully neglected in their wasteful and reckless
Career.
Mr. BELLEW thought the only one of these meas
ureswhich would du go* l was the bill for allowing the sale of
encumbered estates. .

Mr. HUME regretted the angry tone which had been
adopted on the present occasion. The bon. member for
Bath had only asked a common question when money was
abet to be voted, and it was a very proper qui stion; to
inquire if the government had made up their minds as to
what extent the money required by this bill would go; whe-
ther there was any means of stopping the evil which +rasping
on. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave as
distinct an anew, ras he could. At pt cunt, only 300,0001.
was granted, and, when mere was wanted, they must come
to that house. It would be more serious if the 300,0001.
was intended only for one month. It appeared, however,
that the government were going on without having made
up their mind. WI to what steps shoald be taken to
check the casting evil; and he thought the honourable
and learned member for Bath deserved thanks, rather
than blame, for having put the question he did. It
iipp,ared to him that her Majesty's government had hut
little reflected upon the state to which they were bringing
this country, the pesple of which were already almost de-
stroyed by the preroure of heavy taxation.
Lord J. MANNERS was desirous that Irish members
would not fell to discriminate between the tone and manner
of the dal. rent English members who addrewed the house
on Irish difILITM. He could assure them that the language
u-eel by the hon. and learned member for Bath received no
sort of unction from English members sitting on his (Lord J.
Manner.') lode of the house, and he thought it could not hot
have been observed that all the support which the hon. and
learned gent* etwitt received came from gentlemen professing
the same political print les as himself, and sitting on his
aide of the house. He (Lord J. Manners) had listened with
the utmost attention to the multitudinous spec ches which the
hon. and learned member had addressed to the house on this
question, and he was at a lam to discover what measure of
relief the hon. and loomed member would propose for the
distress which pro vaied in Ireland. (Hier.) One proposition
certainly had lt en extrocted from him, namely, the mort-
gage of all the lends of Ireland to the state; but, with all
due re.p et to the hon. and learned gentleman, he did not
think the destitute per of Ireland would derive much hene-
fit from such a eonr.e of legislation; and if that was the only
measure t:.e Lon. end learned marcher had to propose, in
plane of the pia iorneioed by th, government and taut sub-
mitted to the euip.i.leration of the house by hi. noble friend
the menewr tor Lv no, he did not think the English people
would int under the banners of the hon. and learned
member fn. B nth. t Hear, hear.) He believed the people of
England were ready and willing to sequence in a vote of pub- ,
lic money by way ci temporary relief to the population