The Express.
London, England, 1848-02-10 00:00:00

theirs by right of pommies ant of the usufruct. When
the treaty of Waitangi was concluded it was unietroally
construed and understood to stipulate that the titles of the
actives to their lands were recognised, the lands so recog-
nised*. theirs being not only those under tillage, but also
those which he had just referred to. That, without gam
lien, was the construction put upon the treaty of Waitangi,
and the governor of the island had given suopls and just
explanafion of the footiag on which he deemed the matter to
staud at page 16 of the volume of papers laid be-
fore the hoime, wherein he enumerated the various
modes by which the natives obtained their living,
and enumerated the tracts of land in question as being pact
o their possessions necessary for them to obtain subsistence.
The view taken by Governor Grey on this point was in
entire conformity with the interpretation which the treaty
had uniformly obtained as well in the colony as at home.
Now, the great anxiety which he (Mr. Gladstone) felt upon
this point was to be quite sure the despatch of Lord Grey,
dated December 23, 1816, together with the instructions
which accompanied it, were in conformity to the construc-
tion of the treaty just referred to. The natives of New
Zealand themselves entertsined the firmest opinions upon
the subject, and the peace of the island, nay, even its future
possession by her Majesty. was involved in the question
now raised. He referred, therefore, to a former despatch
of Earl Grey, which was printed at p. 69 01
the
papers presented to parliament in August, 1847 ;
wherein the noble lord spots of the pretensions of the tribes
of New Zealanders to the possession of large tracts of un-
filled lands; and in the instructions which accompanied the
despatch in tinettiOn Lord Gill expressly enjoined Governor
Grey to admit of no claim to land which was made, unless
the court should be satisfied by some act of the executive, or
by some proof on the part of the New Zealanders, that they
had pension= and oosupation of the lands, either as an
abode for the cultivation of crops, or the pasturage of cattle,
or for the convenience and suatentation of life, by expending
labour thereon. His (Mr. Gladstone's) doubts had arisen on
the point—that whilst Earl Grey confined his instruction,
to the cession of lands whereon laSour was expended,
a great portion of the lands claimed by the New
Zealanders, and absolutely necessary for their subsis-
tence, were entirely untitled, and, according to the
views entertained by the noble colonial secretary, could not
be ceded to them under the provisions of the treaty. Now
he had shown already, by the admitted general construction
put by both the contracting parties on that treaty, that such
views as those which Earl Grey's instructions appeared to
countenance could not be maintained, inasmuch as many
large tracts of land-the property, of the New Zealanders,
were entirely uncultivated, and what he feared was, that the
courts instituted for the purpose of settling the land claim.
in the colony would so construe the paragraph which he had
quoted as to refuse to award to the natives those lends
whereon they could not show that some labour had been ex-
pended. In the north of the island there was, he feared,
little laud available, save that which had been en-
joyed by the New Zealanders in the manner de-
axibed. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. gentleman
would be prepared to contradict hint in respect to the ap-
prehensions which the language of Earl Grey's despatch
had raised in his mind. The noble lord enjoined on Go-
vernor Grey to respect the treaty of Waitangi by all means;
but then the meaner in which he spoke of carrying it out
wee such as to raise the doubts he (Mr. Gladstone) had ex-
pressed. "Do not," said Earl Grey, " construe the treaty
in the sense that was at first done—namely, in an improvi-
dent spirit ; but do so on the ground that the land claimed
by the New Zealanders shall be shown by them to the satis-
faction of the courts to have been under tillage for the sus-
tentation of life." Such was the interpretation which the
despatch of Foal Greyof 1846, and the instructions appended
to I:, seggested to his mind. In a letter written by Earl
Grey respecting the Bishop of New Zealand, dated Nov. 13,
1847, and printed at page 84 of the papers presented in De-
cember last, the noble lord said that all he advised was
that the theory which gave the ownership of lands to
particular tribes ought not to be made the ground of
future transactions or of concessions, but that the rights of the
Crown should be respected in future when neither occupa-
tion nor tillage could be proved. He feared that the mean.
ing of the noble lord in the different despatches addressed by
him to the Governor of New Zealand was to take as a
criterion of the claims on land the improvements effected by
cultivation. And now, with respect to the letter in ques-
tion, he must appeal to the right hon. gentleman's attention
whilst he adverted to a topic on which he had already
touched. It was that of the Bishop of New Zealand. He
did cot fear that anything injurious to the high character of
the bishop would result from what had taken place. That
right reverend prelate would continue faithfully to serve
the government in his station and canine, whether he were
weal or ill used by them. But the Bishop of New Zealand
had been subjected to blame on the part of the noble Secre-
tary for the Colonies on account of the protest he had trans-
mitted to the Colonial-office, wherein he had declared his
determination to assist the natives of his diocese in maintain-
ing their legal rights under the treaty of Waitangi. The
reely made by Earl Grey in his letter of Nov. 13, 1847, to
which he (Mr. Gladstone) had already referred, was eve
dently written on the supposition that the bishop's declara-
tion had been made pulthe in the colony, and that he had
openly avowed his determination to assist the New Zea-
landers in assertiest their rights against the government.
Now he (Mr. Gladstone; must observe that the bishop did
nos ..ch thing. lie, on the contrary, determined to strengthen
Governor Grey's hands by putting him in possession of a docu-
ment wherein the views entertained by the go. ernor on the
subject of the treaty were corroborated and confirmed. The
Bishop of New Zealand was incapable of committing as act
of imprudence FO great as that of publishing such • docu-
ment in a colony where society was in the condition exhibi-
ted in New Zealand. The government at home had no
knowledge of the fact that the bishop had acted in the man-
ner supposed by Earl Grey; for it was not denied that such
supposition or belief was the ground upon which the censure
of Earl Grey was founded. But if the bishop only forwarded
his views, and expressed his intention to the government,
and to the government alone, then he (Mr. Gladstone) must
contend that the right reverend prelate had done a most
praiseworthy act. It was for this reason he begged
to ask the right honourable gentleman whether the
bishop was known to have published his protest in New
Zealand, for if he did not, then the Censure of the noble
Earl, which was founded solely on the publication imputed
to the prelate, was most unjust : and he hoped not a day,
not even an hour, would elapse without producing some re-
paration to the bishop, for having been subjected to a charge
which, if true, would be a eery serious one ; but which,
if ur.founded, could not render him deserving of blame.
lie should be very glad to find that the views which he
had expressed of the tendency of Earl Grey's policy re-
specting New Zealand, should prove unfounded. lie would
be v,illing to concede to Lord Grey's abstract opinions, pro-
viv'ied he was satisfied there was no cause for apprehension
that the instructions sent cut by the noble lord would
be productive of no praetical evils, not to say
serious consequences. And he was prepared to show that
there did exist serious reasons for his fears. When the des.
patch of Dec. 1816 arrived at New Zealand, its purport
created there the most seeiou3 alarm, and when speaking in
this sense, be must observe that the native New Zealanders
were not to be looked upon as a eass of men who were likely
to be intimidated, or to be induced by fear to cede their just
rights. He hoped, however, that justice would in the end
prove strenaer than fear. and that the government would
not be induced to proceed upon false grounds. Having
thus stated the points which had disturbed the minds
of those who viewed with interest the colony of New Zealand,
he trusted the right hon. gentleman was prepared to give
him the assurances and guarantees which be had requested,
in the absence of which he must invite the most serious at-
tention of the house to the subject. If the fears which he
entertained were unfounded, no person would be more sin-
cerely gratified at hearing such was the fact than himself.
He trusted, however,tthat he should not be deemed impatient
if he pressed for an immediate reply °nail the points nrged by
higm, and he must add, that he hoped to find sympethy in the
riht hon. gentleman's breast. on behalf of the noble people, of
whose allegiance her Majesty had every reason to be justly
proud.
Mr. Isl. MILNES begged to ssk the right hon. gentleman
whether he meant by his observatiors to include the whole
of the territory of New Zealand as bound by the treaty of
Weitungi.
Mr GLADSTONE said that he limited the operation of 1,
the treaty in question to the northern pert of the island ; his
remarks could not apply to any other portion of the island,
as elsewhere in it land was freely sold.
Mr. LABOUCHERE claimed the favour of being allowed
to speak a second time on the question before the house, in
order to have an opportunity of reply:rig to the right hon.
did not'g an importanceem tach greater at. Ile could assure bim
to thtt
the conduct he (Mr. of the Gladstongo.e)
erernme at of New Zealand than he himself did; nor did any
oneltheire none sincerely that good faith and generoOty should
characterise the proceeding* of Great Britain toward that
colony. 'the government f?'.*. all the imporivil itac which
and
at- .
tached to the object of y.
rights the cnneterests
rights of the rice of non who inhabited New Zea-
land. The recent accounts from that colony had
stimulated those feelings still mere All who read these ac-
counts, and who had also seen Governor Grey's description
of them, could not but deeply sympathise in the &sire
evinced by the New Zealander-, to adopt the habits and
usages of civilised life. They were found labuuring
dsin Co
disn.
ccrt with whito men--consttucting magnificent roa, -
playing a degree of tractahility never yet observed amongst
tribes deemed Wage; and, amongst other proofs of their ad-
vancement, he found that the New Zealanders possessed 60
small cossting sessele. Who that regarded such details as
those could not but regret that any thine should ever be done
by the goverment which would have the effect of turning
them from the ways of civilised life S. The contrast which
their present state afforded to their former ene was
very great, and it mizht very reasonably excite hopes that
the rice would gradually amalgamete with the whites, and
that the best results would rime. With respect to the do-
dactioes mate by the rieht hoe. gentleman from the printed
doctor • r.ts. he (Mr. Lebouctere) must say. that in his helief
Earl Grey was as reluctant to swerve from the treaty of
Waitangi as tee right bolo gentleman himself. At the same
time, he must say that even for the sake of the natives them-
selves no doctrine less safe could lten.ut forth than that which
affirmed their right to the whole surleee of the land. The sus
peefieial extent of New Zealand was 5,1.000.000 acne, whilst
the natives did not number more than 100,000, and he must
observe that when a claim was made on behalf of their
hunting grounds, the facts del not bear out the case
stated for them. for there were no fourfooted animals in-
digenous to the island except rats and pigs: and their situa-
tion was not the same as teat of the North American Indians,
who subsisted wholly by hunting, and who required large
tracts of ground for their subsistence. Wbat coud be more
eposterous than to suppose that the 100,000 NewsZealanders
existing on the island could occupy the enormous extent of
ground which their tainted embraced? The right hen.gentlee
man had stated that it was not his intention to controvert the
abstract propositions advanced by Earl Grey. But he ex-
pressed hie fears that the noble lord's instructions to Gover-
nor Grey were not in conformity to the treaty of
NVaitangt. The feet was not so. There existed no

difference of opinion between Earl Grey and Governor
Grey upon. the subject of that treaty. If he were
disposed to justify the noble earl's conduct he should at one*
quote the very despatch to which the right hen. gentleman
had referred; for therein his noble friend had reminded
0 reamer Grey that the principles laid down were abstract
peaMiples, and the noble earl qualified them by pointing out
the manner of carrying out the views of government. But
the right hon. gentlemen had said that what excited his fears
were the passages hi the ingredient which accompanied the
despatch of December, 1846. Ile seemed to
oth
think that them
instructions limited the proprietary. rights the New Zee-
linden to lands on which their labour had been ex-
pended, and that no claims would be allowed by the
coown which were not suppo-ted by. proofs that labour
had been employed on the lands in question. Now
Ihe (Mr. Labouchere) did not read the instructions
of Earl Grey in that sense. Oa the contrary, the
very expremion that the claims to lend made by the New
1 Zealanders were not to be admitted unless they were este-
blished to the satisfaction of the court, eitber by proof of
occupation and labour, or of 601110 act of the executive go-
vernment, was conclusive evidence that the treaty of Wai-
tangi was to be fully carried out, inasmuch as he (Mr. La-
bouchere) considered that treaty to be an act of the execu-
tive government, which bound the court to take notice of
the claims founded on it. and therefore the New Zealanders
were not to be excluded from a right to their lands, even
should they not have expended any labour upon them. He
believed there was no teal ditlercnce in the construction
put by the different parties to the treaty. Ile believed
that it would be strictly, adhered to and largely aced upon,
and that the lands would be liberally conceded to the New
Zealand claimants, But even for their own sake ears
ought to be taken not to concede these claims on too
large a scale, as the land would to reby be withdrawn
from cultivation. There was, he believed, no difference of
opinion between Earl Grey and Governor Grey. The latter
was prepared to carry out the instructions sent him, and he
had hopes that all the dangerous parts of the negotiations
would soon be brought to a satisfactory issue. Ile would now
proceed to touch upon another point to which the right hon.
gentleman had referr d in respect to the bill before the
house. lie (Mr. Gladstone) had said that there were two
parts to the bill—namely, an enacting and a suspensory part.
He approved of the enacting part of the measure, but with
respect to suspending the constitution granted to New Zea-
land the right hon. gentleman hail expressed his disapproval,
and Paid that it would be better at onco to annul the consti-
tution altogether. Now he (Mr. Lebouchere) did not think
that coarse advisable. The legislature had deliberately
granted a constitution to the colony of New
Zealand, and subsequently that happened which
had been foreseen by Governor Grey,—namely, that
the introduction of that free constitution into an infantcolony
would be premature. But he must say that it would not, in
his opinion, be a proper course for the government to take to
to the house to recall a grant which the legislature
Cresreanted • and it might ressonahly he anticipated that
the forms and provisions of the constitution might be gra-
dually applied to the colony in such a Insurer as was best
adapted to the disposition of the people, winch would, in his
°plume, be a preferable course to that proposed by the right
bon gentleman. There was another point to which his atten-
tion had been called, and which he (Mr. Labouchere) edverted
to with pain,namely,the conduct of the bishop of New Zealand.
The right hon. gentleman had asked whether any additional
Information bad been received with respect to the proceed-
ings of the bishop, and whether it was known that he had
promulgated his opinions amongst the natives. There had
been no information on that subject received from the colony
1 since be had last addressed the house. But he must say
that the Bishop of New Zealand, in andiag home his pro-
test, had distinctly intimated his intention to excite tho 1
natives of New Zealand against the course pursued by the
government. The right rev. prelate said that he would do I
his utmost to acquaint the New Zealanders with their rights, i
and to show how inconsistent the government proceedings i
were with their due observance. Ile had a great respect i
for the right rev. prelate, but he must say that such conduct I
was most unprecedented, and that Earl Grey was bound to 1
express his disapprobation when he was informed by the I
bishop of his intention to agitate the colony of New Zealand. I
lie thought that if Lord Grey had not expressed his opinion i
of the bishop's conduct in the manner be had done he I
would have been grossly deficient in his duty. (Hear, I
hear) He had only to repeat that the Colonial-office did i
not mean to take any steps with regard to the ei.posal of i
waste lands inconsistent with the treaty of Waitangi or the 4
jig' is of the aborigines. (Hear.) lie thought that the
hens*, when suspending the constitution of the colonies, I
acted wisely in giving exteusive powers to Governor Grey, c
who had already shown so much pro e,ptitude and capacity I
tinder difficult and trying circumstances, but in saying this I
it. must at the same time express his hope that the time t
would soon come when free institutions might be restored,
and New Zealand be as it deserved to be, and es its great i
capabilities entitled it to he—a free, a happy, and a united
colony. (Cheers.) I
Sir E. N. BUXTON said that the opinions of the Bishop i
of New Zealand respecting the proper constitution of the 1
new charter were not singular. He (Sir E. N. Buxton) had ,
had letters from several missionaries expressing their I
apprehensions of this charter, and further believed it would t
also be found that other parties of high respectability in the i
island were horrified at the construction which they had put 1
upon it. He was glad to hear that the treaty of Waitangi I ,
was to be substantially observed.
Mr. AGLIONBY, as a member of the New Zeeland Com- 1
pang, claimed the privilege of saying a few words. He could I
assure the house that the company sought the greatest pub-
licity for all their transactions, and were most anxious to i
have their conduct subjected to the severest scrutiny. He •
could not admit the principle which some hon. members I
had laid down—namely, that in every nook of the land which 1
the natives had ever visited, or on which they had ever eaten 1
anybody—(a laugh)—they had realised a beneficial interest. 1
He was more inclined to accept the title set up by the right
hon. member for Oxford, namely, that which gave the na- i
tives a right to any land which they had occupied, took pos-
session
of, or cultivated. in the treaty of Waitangi the
words were " may peseta." He would ask, what was tho
meaning of those words? Why the central island, which was I
nearly as large as England, contained only 1;1A0 ,
inhabitants. Was it contended that thew 1,200 na-
tiers had an exclusive right to such a vast tract? (Hear.)
Lord Grey in his despatch had wisely stated that much a con-
etruction would be inconsistent both with relirrion and 1
humanity. (Hear.) Under our rule the natives were
gradually learning habits of industry and peace, they wen
gradually acquiring property and knowledge ; and "gain he
would ask, was a state of things to be returned to in which
they had been bloodthirsty and, ferocious savages ? (Hear,
hear.) Lord Grey had construed the treaty to allow the
occupation of the waste lands by the colonists, and he trusted
that that construction would be adopted by the house. Ile
could assure them that so much had the cupidity of
the natives been excited by the language which had
lately been held to them, that, if the question were
not speedily settled, there would hardly be a posta-
-1 bility of obtaining land for the colonists on any-
thing like reasonable terms. He begged before he
Geist
down to all attention to a ppassagein Governory'
despatch having reference to the western settlement. He
did so, because, after the former debate he was twitted with
having preserved an unjust silence respecting that settli-
ment; the fact being, that he really had alluded to it, but his
observations had not been preserved in the usual channels of
communication. (A laugh.) Theember then read
an extract from the despatch aliuded to into the effect that
the western settlements were favourably distinguished from
other portions of the colony, and fully deserving of the most
extended constitutional rights.
Mr. CARI)WELL would rot enter into any lengthened
examination of the treaty of Waitangi; he should only I
express hie regret that the construction which had been put
on it by nearly one-half of the committee of 1846 had not
been accepted. lie did not think that the tranquillity of the
colony had been advanced by the construction put on that
treaty by the majority. (Hear.) His right hon friend
the member for the University of Oxfordof had interrupted
the vacation of the chair for the purpose getting satisfac-
don upon two points—one being to have justice done to a
most respectable individual, and the other referred to a
great public question 'electing the destiny of the islands.
With regard to the first, he regretted to say that the answer
of the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade had
been most unsatisfactory. The question walll, whether the
government did or did not think that the Bebop of New
Zealand had been guilty of agitating the island, and exciting
the natives against the authorities. The right hon. gentle.
man had read the following passage from the bishop's letter:
" I am resolved to inform the natives of their rights and
privileges as British 'objects, and to amist in asserting and
maintaining them." The right hon. gentleman had stopped
short at that place, omitting the words which followed,
" Whether by petition to the imperial parliament, or other
loyal and peaceful methods; but in so dieing I shall not for-
get the respect due to your excellency or to the peace of tho
colny." (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Why that was
the whole question; and a full explanation was due to the
bishop as the head of the whole missionary body. He (Mr.
Cardwell) believed that not only did the missionaries of the
church of England act in harmony with the bishop, but the
missionaries of other denominations. He had therefore felt
it to be his duty to call upon the government for explana-
tion ; as, if he had thought that the bishop had really agi-
tated the islanders, he should have been the last to vindicate
him. The right honourable gentleman had told the
house that the government had not had any re-
cent information from the islands respecting the effects
of the bishop's letter. He (Mr. Cardwell) contended that
they had negative information, for they had despatches
down to October last, and there was not one word from the
governor nor any one else to the effect that bad feeling had
been excited by the bishop's protest. (Hear, hear.) The
other question was, in what sense or spirit it was intended to
carry out the treaty of Waitangi—were they going to pre-
serve it in its integrity, to break it, or to get rid of it by a
aide wind? In former debates, that treaty had been recog-
nised as the basis on which the executive government was
founded. He trusted that the answer which the right hon.
gentleman had given to this question might be taken
as satisfactory, because he had understood him to say
I that whatever might have been the instructions of Lord
Grey in 1846, the government entirely approved of the con-
duct of Captain Grey with regard to the treatr, and that
they intended to carry out the principle w that officer
and laid down. This would go out as a message of peace,
' and would allay the anxiety which was now very general in
the islands. The hon. member here read an extract from
Capt. Sotheby's despatch, to the effect, that two chiefs,
attended by numerous followers, had waited on hint, and
inquired whether government meant to take the uncultivated
land, and ,that he had eased their mind' on the subject.
If the government acted in the spirit of the treaty
they would have peace in the colony, and upon no
other terms. The honourable member fogockout
had alluded to the old charge against the ives—that of
the titles to the land consisting in their having eaten up the
former possessors. The paper then ea the table eve eel,
deuce that the natives, having in a gallant action resisted es
troops of the Queen, found the body of Private Weller, of

the nth Regiment, sad that they read prayers over It and
buried it without mutilation. (Rear, hem.)
Mr. AOLIONBY.—Ittsd the paisage where they ate the
mimedlaugh.) With regard to this particular bill, he was
that It was time to do something, and, having ascer-
tained the spirit in which government intended to aet, he
did not mean to throw any obstacles in the way of the

committee.
The Earl of LINCOLN regretted that there had been no
discussion on the principle of the bill. The general affairs
of New Zealand had been fully discumed, but the merits of
the measure immediately before the house had been com-
pletely overlooked. Under these circumstances, and seeing
that it was nearly 5 o'clock, he should suggest that the
chairman merely take the chair pro furmd, and that the
discussion should take place on a future day.
Mr. LABOUCHERE hoped that the noble lord would
not press for the povtponement of the committee. Seeing
that the strong feeling of the house was in favour of the
principle of the bill, he thought that the sooner they got
into the committee the better.
The Earl of LINCOLN was determined, if the discussion
were nut permitted now, to take it on the bringieg up of the
report, and then to move any amendment he might think
necessary.
Mr. SCOTT would support the motion for postponement.
There seemed to be a greet diversity of opinion as to the ,
character of the natives of New Zealand. One hon. member
considered them worthy of the most extended franchisee,
while others asserted that they only held their lands upon
what was called the kill'em-and-eat'em title. (Laughter.)
Mr. ADDERLEY considered that &measure, the malt of
which might be to endanger the safety of the colony, was fur
too important to by decided in a hasty manner, and without
the fullest informstioe. lie also recommended postpone-
ment.
Mr. ANSTEY, in order to give time for further consi-
deration, would move that the house go into committee on
the bill that day week.
This amendment, not being seconded, fall to the ground,
and the house went into committee, Mr. Bernal in the chair.
On the first clause, which suspends the constitution, being

put,
Mr. GLADSTONE observed that be could not say he was
convinced by what had fallen from the right hon. gentlemen
as to the question of suspendiag the constitution ; at thesame
time he had no desire to offer any obstaele to the passing of
the bill. Should he hereafter feel it to be his duty to pro-
pow the amendment ho had announced, he would give
ample notice of the oreasioa on which he would bring it for-
ward.
Mr. HUME suggested that the period of suspension
should be limited to three, instead of five, years.
Mr. LABOUCHERE, considering the distance of the
colony from the mother country, end the time that must
elapse before the suspension could take place, did not think
five years too much. His hon. friend must remember also
that at any time within the five years the governor might,
if he thought it expedient to do so, bring the colony, or any
part of it, again within the operation of the constitution.
All that was done by the bill was to lay down five years as
the maximum during which the constitution should be
suspended.
Mr. AGLIONBY asked, would the governor have the
power to carry the constitution into effect in the southern
provinces immediately, if he should see no danger in doing
so? (Hear, hear.) Also, whether he would have the power
of making, with respect to those provinces, such alterations
in the charter, in respect to the franchise, as,
with the ions
of his council, he might think necessary ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that the 4th clause gave full
power to the governor to introduce the constitution into one
part of the colony without applying it to the whole, if he
should think tit to do so ; and he thought this was a matter
which might properly be left to his judgment. (Hear,
hear.) If he should here reason to apprehend that his
doing so would excite the jealousy of that part which would
remain excluded, and so endanger the peace of the colony,
of course he would continue the suspension to the whole;
but if, on the other hand, the governor should find that
there would be no danger in the constitution being brought
into operation in certain provinces, excluding the others, no
doubt he would exercise the power given to him in that
respect. With regard to the second question his hon. friend
had put, lie apprehended the governor would not have it in
his power to alter the charter but by ordinance, and in con-
cert with his legislative council he might enact such provi-
sions as might be necessary tor the good government of the
colony.
The Earl of LINCOLN contended that the answer given
by the right lion. gentleman was not borne out by the
enactments of the bill. No subsequent clause of the bill
empowered the governor to grant to the southern provinces
that constitution which was suspended by the first clause
throuzhout the colony. The fourth clause empowered the
governor to grant a legislative council, bat that was no part
of the constitution they were now suspending.
Mr. C. BULLER said it was left to the discretion of the
governor at any time when so advised on his own respon-
sibility, or when so instructed by the colonial secretary, with
the consent of his council, to enact by ordinance that a pro-
visional legislative council should be appointed or elected
for either of the provinces iu well manner as such
ordinance should direct. If, therefore, the governor
should consider that any part of the colony was et
to possess representative institution., he might, with the ad-
vice of his council, order that such provisional legislative
council he elected by the people under the terms of the
former act, and the council so elected w..uld possess all such
powers as the governor chose to delegate to them.
The Earl of LINCOLN objected that the reply of the
right hon. and learned gentleman did not meet the point
which had been raised. The first clause distinctly suspended
the representative powers of the constitution for five years,
unless the Queen in council should otherwise direct. The
subsequent clauses provided a substitute, of a medley cha-
racter, for those representative.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that the consti-
tution provided a general assembly for the whole colony,
composed of a legislative assembly elected for each province.
If in one part of the colony it would net be proper to con-
tinue the power to elect the legislative assembly they could
not have this general assembly. But the basis of the
present measure .11 to place the most unlimited power in
Governor Grey, who might, if he thought fit, increase the
lislative council which wan the body that existed previous
tege the former act,, and was revived by the present bill, and
give a legislative assembly to the southern province. (An
expression of dissent from Lord Lincoln.) Yes, he might
under the 4th clause take verbatim et literalim the in.
etructions of Lord Grey, as contained in the previous
charter, and re-enact them.
The Earl of LINCOLN.—Did the bon. and learned
gentleman mean to say, that whereas the first clause re-
pealed the two houses of parliament, viz., the legislative
council and the legislative assembly, under the 4th clause,
Governor Grey would have the power of re-establishing a
general amenably aswell as a legislative council, or, in other
words, a House of Commons u well as a House of Lards ?
The ATTORNEY-GENEB.AL.—The constitution as it
now stood consisted of a House of Lords and two Houses of
Commons. The llouse of Lords had control over the whole
colony, and was composed of the members of the two Houses
of Commons. Under the present bill there could only be
the one assembly, but it might be appointed by the governor
in council, or elected as he might think fit.
It being close upon the stroke of six o'clock,
Mr. LABOUCHERE suggested, as there were certain
returns to be moved for, that the house should resume, and
the chairman report Progre-e, which was agreed to.
VICE-ADMIRALTY COURTS.
Capt. PECIIELL having moved for certain returns on
this subject, and intimated his intention to call the attention
of the house to it on that day fortnight,
Mr. WARD said he had no objection to the returns, but
would take that opportunity of stating that the whole sub•
jest of the Vice-Admiralty Courts had been UlltiOT the con
sidemtion of the government, and, under the advice of the
solicitor of the treasury and Dr. Lushington, they were now
engaged in completing a new scale of charges, for it could
not be denied that the charges in respect to many of the
adjudications had been enormously high. (Rear, hear.)
The house then adjourned at six o'clock.

16,