The Express.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 23, 1851.

amen. With regard to the first accident men-
timed, a eery able report bad been prepared by
Captain Laren. who had been sent down to in-
vestigate the claws of it, and that report would be laid
en the table. With respect to the ether accident, he be-
lieved shat at the Mbeilleat a cormaer's lingoes* was aiming,
in militias to old& a gentleman had been seat down to in-
meggato Ms the ichermthe government. He mast, bow-
„et, taw ebb of antleatai the home against
selopthig the gills the 'stalk security weal,' be in-
creased by Isminhreing• reepeasibility from the bands of
tansy ffrealnef him of the commissioners. (Beer,
heart) It wan leatesal that the accidents which had
recentl osenesni Woes a feeling of alarm ; but,
notwi theme malign% he mast say that, taking
the railway 1111W111010111 11( this country as a whole,
they son easiteeted with a degree of personal security to
travellers whisk weegaits solphing. (Hear, hear.) He
certainly was not as peeteall prepereen to propose any mea-
sure which would she the emoiselotters increased control
over railway atmeN111•111. Meer.)
CAPITAL

*nosiest in the minds of most people to paying for the
inculcation of that which did not agree with their own
yttaalllgbal opinions. But the liniment system, while 14
gave a; *era denial to secular education, patronised
every kind and species of theology, and applied the publie
soeney to every tweed provided it eras a weed. The prin-
ciple on which it proceeded was that reading and writing
were bed unless aceompaaied by what some men regarded
as ; was an evil without theology as a
COM • thithi=ogy being with those who did not
agree with it heresy ; aid decimals were death to the soul
unless neutralised by what some did not hesitate to call
idolatry. In these times of strong protestant feeling could'
they expect that protestant' would be content to pay for the
szE:of schools in which they were told images of the
Madonna were exhibited for the children to worship when
Ant they entered ? Ho spoke of these things with no dis-
respect. (Hear, hear.) Bet where was the wisdom or tho
propriety of calling upon the protestant to pay for propo-
gating those religious principles to which at this time the
country took strong exceptien? Again, in the church
schools, a catechism was taught which declared that there
was no salvation out of the church—and the children were
led to infer that the dissenters were the descendants of the
puritans who murdered their sovereign, starved many
of the clergy, and sold others into slavery—and
was it reasonable that dissenters should be charged to
have their own or other's children taught such things? By
combining religious with secular education everyone had to
pay for this inculcation of something he disbelieved. In
proposing that secular education should be carried out by
means of a national rate, he hoped it would not be consi-
dered that such a proposition would involve a burthen
which the nation ought to shun. From the best calcula-
tions he had been able to make ho believed it would appear
that they were paying as much directly now as would be
necessary for carrying out a complete system of national
education. (Hear, hear.) He had received communica-
tions from various towns showing that the sums known to
be paid for public and private schools together was sufficient
for the instruction of their entire population, although now
half that population, to the extent of from 10,000 to 20,000,
according to the number of inhabitants, were without any
kind of education. lie believed that that class of ratepayers
who were struggling to support largo families would be
largely benetittod by his proposition for adopting a national
rate for the purpose of education—aud if that plan
were carried out, he would suggest that gradation schools
might be established under it in which every description
of education might be afforded, from tho lowest to the
highest. This principle was carried out in America, and
according to the report of Mr. H. Barnard, the United
States' Commissioner of Education in 1046, with great
success. His (Mr. Fox's) resolution asserted the desira-
bleness of local government as well as of local taxation
and ho adopted teat principle because he believed
the people generally looked with suspicion on such
a task being undertaken by the government. Local
...rrangetnent would afford facilities for preventing many of
the evils anticipated from the introduction of a new
system, and would give a stimulus to the work of education
which no ingenious device of the government could create.
He was aware that some persons feared that such a plan as
he proposed would crush the old schools and reduce many
of the teachers to starvation. He anticipated no such
result. He considered that by giving greater latitude to
the local authorities, arrangementa might be made to pre-
vent the unnecessary extension of new schools, and to pre-
serve those now existing, and that in the cud the school-
masters would be placed in a much better-and more honour-
able position than that which they now occupied. But the
noble lord had stated the other day that to annihilate reli-
gion as part of the system of education would be a great
evil. That was not the proposition he had to submit.
What he proposed was the reparation of secular from reli-
gious education. (Hear, hear.) Omit altogether religious
principle from education! It could not be education
without religion. (Hear, hear.) But what he de-
sired was that this schoolmaster should fulfil his
work of secular instruction, and by doing so expand and
prepare the mind for religious training, of which the clergy
were the ministers, and by whom it should be carried out.
There were many reasons fur separating secular from reli-
gious educative. Unless they did so, there was no chance
of any general system of education, for it was the only
principle in which compulsion could be introduced. (Hear,
hear.) But, apart from this ground, was it wise, was it
wholesome, that children should be trained up within the •
lines of sectarian demarcation ? Was it not good that they '
should in after life look back with kindly feelings to their I
old schoolfellows, that they should remember early associa-
nous, rather than that difference of creed should be raised I
up into a barrier of separation. But secular education and
religion were so distinct, that they could not be taught to-
gether. They were not taught together now, though they
were taught by the same teachers. The 59th canon required
every vicar, rector, curate, or parish priest to instruct the 1
young every Lord's day in the ten commandments, the
Lord's prayer, and the catechism of the church. Let that
work be well done, and what occasion was there for this

schoolmaster teaching religion according to his notion ?
(Hear, hear.) The system of combining religious with seen-
lar instruction originated in charity. Mr. Bathes, the philan-
thropic founder of the Sunday school system, saw a uumber
of children in the streets on the Sunday, destitute of all edu-
cation, and established Sunday schools for their benefit.
The provision of religious education would be furnished by
voluntary contributions, and its selection should be left as a
right to the parents. But the teaching provided by the
state for children left without natural guardians ought to
be limited to secular knowledge, and kept carefully free
from sectariauism. Referring to the criminal returns, the
hon. member remarked that a constant decrease of ratio was
found to exist in the wholly uninstructed and in the well-
educated classes ; but was regularly increasing with regard
to those who were entered as " imperfectly educated."
After dwelling upon the imperfection of the instruction
afforded in the present Sunday and sectarian schools,
Mr. Fox enforced the necessity of adopting the plan
he now brought forward, and which was, is its
principal feature*, similar to that he had suggested in
previous sessions. In conclusion, he begged to move
" That it is expedient to promote the education of the
people, in Englund and Wales, by the cstablishmeut of
free schools for secular instruction, to he supported by
local rates, and managed by committees, elected specially
for that purpose by the ratepayers."
Sir G. OBEY could assure the honourable gen-
tleman that while the government could not give their
assent to the resolution iu its present shape, they would
not meet it in any spirit of opposition to the extension of
sound and woeful education among the great body of the
people, or to the prevention of members of different reli-
gious denominations from coming together. Ile concurred
with the hon. gentleman in the importance of the object in
view, and the government cordially agreed with him upon
the abstract utility of extending the means of sound and
useful education. He did not dispute the accuracy of the hon.
gentleman's facts, tending as they did to show that there were
still great deficiencies in our educational system but he
must remind the house that of late years there had been a
great increase in the number of schools for the education of
the lower classes in this kingdom, and that the character of
the education imparted in these schools had been con-
siderably improved. Still, there was no doubt that much
remained to be done, and that the country was indebted
to the hon, gentleman for the attention he had for a long
period devoted to this subject. That great advantages might
in many cases be derived from local management was
indisputable; nevertheless, he (Sir G. Grey) would hesitate
before he adopted a resolution which would have the effect
of raising local educational rates, because the circumstances
appertaining to parts of the country were so essentially dif-
ferent that the principle of rating could not be applied uni-
versally. Everything depended on the character of the
education to be given. He confessed that he felt the same
insuperable objections to the adoption of the present reso-
lution which he had felt to the bill of the hon. gentleman
last year, inasmuch as it was inherent in both the bill
and resolutions that the aid to be given by these
local rates should be limited to schools in which secular in-
struction alone was imparted. ileapprehended that secular
schools supported by local rates would supersede all the
other schools now in existence. If there was one thing
more than another on winch the opinion of the people of
England was clearly expressed, it was this, that the educa-
tion to be given to the nation must be an education based
upon religion, the instilling of an education based princi-
pally on the Word of God; and the instructing of man as
MI accountable being in the duty he owed to his Creator.
(Hear, hear.) The honourable gentleman had read
one of the canons of the church, enjoining cateche-
, tical examination on the ministers of the establish-
ment : but the house should recollect that there was
no power of compelling the masses of the people to attend
I catechetical instruction. (Hear.) Then, it was also to be
borne in mind that the hon. gentleman would exclude from
the operation of the local rates any school that recognised
the religious principle, and that even schools conducted on
the Irish system would fall under the ban of his exclusion.
r (Hear.) He ti(Sir U. Grey) believed it to be equally
essential that tills cltes of the community—the rich as well

as the poor—should be religiously as well secularly edu- i
cited. (Hear.) Alluding to the "Manchester education
scheme," Sir G. Grey observed that the catholic body had
' refused to co-operate in it, but still considered that in a
modified and experimental form a trial of that system I
might prove useful. He, therefore, hoped that the
house would not assent to the motion of the
honourable gentleman. He trusted that the subject
would at a future time be brought forward under
more favourable *winces in connexion with that
populous district to which be had referred ; and if
the proposed scheme should be successful in that direction
he had no doubt that it would be extended, not universally
throughout the country, owing to the impossibility of
adapting the scheme intact to many rural districts, but still
y in augmenting the means
of education, and in
Generally
together more closely members of all religious de-
nominations, and in • all in one common effort for
the diffusion of the greatest blessing which it was in the
power of men to confer upon society—the extension of
education among the poorer classes. (Cheers.)
Mr. HUME thought that the right hon. gentleman bad
made several admissions of great importance, but that he
had also offered many objections which were entirely new,
and which would not well bear examination. The right
hon. gentleman had not dealt sufficiently with the great
point mooted by the hon. member for Oldham, namely, the
necessity of a general education of the people as the only
means of improving their moral condition which, as re-
yarded the mass, was admitted to be deplorably low. It was
idle in the right hon. gentleman to speak of the risk of adopt-
ing the system proposed by his hon. friend. The thing was
done—the system was already at work in the United States.
I (Hear.) In the United States this question was understood,
• sad it was there acknowledged to be a* incumbent
on a government to educate its poor as to prevent
starving.itrwpoournleromoololaf this was a
In the United States
otesr was
s
I nomy, and there could be no doubt whatever
that it would be found the true economy in this country to
promote education, whereby they would be enabled

to do without the wetly machinery for punishing
'rime. (Hear, item) His honourable friend did
not mere preolude religious instruction; on
the cootreep,
_de poured was that the minds of the rising
generalise alssoN be pmpared, by moral training and gene-
ral educates. flie the neeption of religious truths. (Haar,
hear.) The other day lb. magistrates of Edinburgh heti-
tutedan inquiry into the past lives of WO of the prisoners in
one of the city prisons ; sad it was ascertained that many fami-
lies, for three or four generations, had at all times contri-
buted one or two, or even three, individuals to the gaols.
All that was necessary was that parliament should give the
country the opportunity of educatiug itself. Let power be
given to parishes to assess property to the purposes of edu-
cation, the inhabitants of the pinch having agreed on the
system they would adopt, and the whole tlithculty would be
got over.
Mr. A. B. HOPE found himself under the necessity of
most strongly opposing the proposal of the hon. member
for Oldham, u being, in his opinion, • measure fraught
with the greatest danger to the liberty and the independ-
ence of religious belief. He contended that purely secular
education was a thing utterly impossible—impossible by the
immutable laws of nature. In the system suggested by the
hon. member they might not teach dogmatic religion ; the
might not teach definitive religion; but they must teach
some religion, or a negation of religion ; and the negation
of religion was in itself a religion. The hon. member for
Oldham asked why they could not describe to children the
beauties of the face of nature without reference to religious
creeds. But they could not deal with things and the
names of things without going to creation and referring to
the Creator. They must therefore, in what was called secular
education, teach either deism or atheism. Either deism or
atheism was in one sense a religion; and, there-
fore, whatever system of education they adopted
they could not avoid imparting some religions
education ? He was m anxious as hon. gentlemen
opposite for the extension of education among the people;
but he denied that this was the proper means of
attaining their object. What he would propose was, that
the government grants should be made more munificent to
dissenters and to the members of the church of England,
and that these grants should be in strict reference to the
numerical proportion of each denomination. At the same
time, let these grants be accompanied by fewer restrictive
Clauses. In this way they might hope to see a national
system of education; and it certainly would be preferable
to the gigantic, crushing, illiberal, intolerant, and anti-
Anglo-Saxon centralisation propoied by the scheme of the
hon. member for Oldham.
Colonel TIIOMI'SON suggested to the hon. gentleman
who had just sat down that he overlooked the fact that the
church of England and the dissenters of England had
already made all the efforts they could to educate the peo-
ple upon the present system, and that they had altogether
failed to supply the requirements of the community. He
could not understand the pertinacity with which:the religious
objection was urged to this proposal.
Mr. TRELAWNY, who would vote for the motion, in-
sisted on the necessity of providing instruction to the fullest
extent, and hoped that no narrow prejudices would stand
in the way of that great result.
Mr. W. PATTEN recognised the depth of the popular
feeling that education should be religious as well as secular,
and so long as he retained any hope that a general system
of instruction could be framed upon that principle he must
oppose the present proposition. Failing this result, ho
should consent to adopt the plan of the member for
Oldham. _ _

Mr. M. GIBSON remarked upon the difficulties and
hindrances that baffled every attempt to provide education
in schools of denominational character. The only resource
was therefore to make the instruction simply secular. It
was not fair to charge the advocates of the proposition now
before them with a wish to discourage religious teaching.
All that they wished was to fill up the chasm that now
existed as far as lay in their power, by providing a certain
proportion and kind of education fur classes which could
not be reached in any other way.
Mr. L. WIGRAM contended that the ratepayers were
already heavily burthencd, and the funds for education
ought in preference to be raised from the public exchequer.
He proceeded to argue against the principle of the propo-
'Rion, enforcing the importance of associating all know-
ledge with the truths of religion.
Mr. ADDERLY, who was indistinctly heard, said he
was not aware this subject would conic on that night, or ho
would have come better prepared. But when he saw that
the house had been the other night counted out upon a sub-
ject as important it seemed prooahle that this would share
the same fate. He should be voting against those with
whom he usually voted, but he felt impelled to support the
proposition of the hon. member. If the house would take
care of the great educational question they would find many
complicated social problems solved fur them. Some gen-
tlemen had proposed delay in order to see how the present
system would work, hut he would ask where was the
hope. They all were agreed that religious and secular
education ought to be combined, but they were
also agreed that the two could not be carried
out without some national rate or tax. Now secular education
' could not be carried out except by a national rate, and reli-
gious education could not be carried out by a national rate.
The religious part could nut be so carried out. And,
because they could not carry out one part they would not
carry out the whole. Some merneers were of opinion that
secular education in this country was in a satisfactory state,
but the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. W. J. Fox) had
Cleary pointed out how it had faded. Crime was created by
want of employment, but there would not be that great
want of employ if there were not so great a want of secular
knowledge. if a knowledge of geography only were really
spread among the mass of the people, so that they could
know where to go, and where they would find employ, the
prisons and workhouses of the country would he emptied.
(Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding what had fallen from the
right hon. the Home Secretary, he did not think
what was now being dons in education at all
met the point he had is view. lie did not
think that what was before the country met
the point as regarded the poorer classes who fell
into the gaols and workhouses. It did not meet
their case, but dew over their heads altogether, and they
know nothing about it. After some further remarks of
a similar kind-, the hon. gentleman observed that the prizes
of the Privy Council went to higher objects, and had been
lavished upon classes which ought not to have received a
farthing. When he saw such admirable systems of education
existing in gaols and workhouses, he regretted that the
honest poor outside the wane were debarred from the ad-
vantage which was bestowed within, and ho wished to
extend it to them. The advantages of the proposition be-
fore the house were plain, and if such a system as that con-
templated were carried out, the burden would not rest, as
it chiefly did at present, only on those who were: willing to
contribute, but we should have the education of the people
based on a pre-eminently unprecarious plan, and all classes
being rated for their support, they would be interested in
promoting their efficiency and success.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL concurred with every
hon. gentleman who had addressed the house on the im-
portance of this subject, and believed with them that no I
subject of greater consequence to the well-being of the na-
tion could come before them than how best to educate the
young of those numerous classes who were at present wholly
uneducated. He had never, however, in the course of any
debate heard so many singular fallacies—so many errors in
fact and errors in principle—brought forward as had been
uttered by hon. members that night on this question. lie
really thought that the hon. member for North Stafford-
shire (Mr. Adderley) would not have made the observa-
tions he had offered to the house if he had had time to re-
flect over the matter. Could there have been anything
more surprising than for the hon. gentleman to have based
his support of the motion on the ground that there existed
insuperable difficulties in obtaining the concurrence of
the various bodies of religionists' to a system which embraced
the religious education of the poor; which ha (the
Solicitor-Oeneral) 'did not admit, and that there
were not insuperable difficulties to the adoption of a system
of secular education, which he (the Soliciter-General) also
disputed? (Hear, hear.) And the hon. member (Mr.
Adderley) had said they could obtain both secular and reli-
gious education by impeeing a rate for the former and
leaving the latter to voluntary. effort. Did he (Mr.
Adderley) suppoec that by imposing a rate for the pur-
poses of secular education all difficulties in the way of
having the people properly educated would vanish? lie
(the Solicitor-General) did not think that the hon. member
could arrive at such a conclusion, for being a member of
the National Society in common with himself, he well knew
the difficulties that interposed in the way of obtain-
ing subscriptions. Did ha (Mr. Adderley) not feel
that if • compulsory rate were imposed the difficulties
in procuring subscriptions for the support of those schools
at present in existence, and where the religious clement
had been introduced, would be found insuperable ? Parties
who at present subscribed to the free schools would take the
excuse which the imposition of the rate would afford. Such
a measure as was proposed would be of the most tyrannical
character as respected all the schools in the country where
anything in the shape of religion was introduced, and
people would be compelled to pay a double rate before they
could obtain that species of education they desired; they
would be obliged to pay the rate for the secular schools, and
also to contribute to the support of the religious schools.
He (the Solicitor-General) did not think that the sys-
tam of secular education, as proposed by the hon. mem-
bler for Oldham, was one which the people of England
teen agreed to adopt. The promoters of this scheme seemed
I be be aware that " secular education would not be popu-
lar, for their society had been first called the Association
der Promoting " Secular " Education, but it was now
arced the National Public School Association. (Hear,
boar.) The name had been changed—changed advisedly,
emd the word " secular" had been dropped out.
Mr. COBDEN begged to explain. It had been proposed
flint the word " secular " should be introduced into the
Ws of the association, but he (Mr. Cobden) had urged that
the name should not be altered, and it was the same now as
it had boen since its institution. (Hear, hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was much obliged to the
Ma. member (Mr. Cobden) for putting him right. lie
'Membered that there had been a discussion on the subject
of Manchester, and his impression had been that at that
meeting the word " secular," which had formerly been in
Me title of the association, had been dropped. It appeared,
l•wever, that mainly through the instrumentality of his
boa. friend Mr. Cobden, who had a talent for discovering
what would be acceptable to the people, the word secular
had not been adopted. If it were said that the people were
in favour of " secular" education, he would only refer to
the proceedings of that meeting at Manchester. There
were, however, other parties at Manchester engaged in the
MUM of education besides those who attended this meeting.
A committee had been formed there, consisting of gentle-
men of every shade of politics, from the highest
tory (if any such now existed), to the strongest'
radical, and gentlemen, too, of every relit:
creed. It was quite true that there had
• accession of Reiman catholic priests, bat oar Or
the laymen had seceded. This committee had mood do

Ico-operation of a large body of the people to a system
I which he would not say was perfect, but which accrued to
have met the difficulty which encompassed the subject in a
manner which ho had not previously heard proposed.
They proposed filling the schools already in existence in
the first place, and defraying the cost of educating the
children by uplifting a rate, which should be divided to the
school' of all denominations, in proportion to the number of
scholars they contained. This was, no doubt, a local sys-
tem. It was to be confined to the town of Manchester ; but
it was left to the other towns to adopt the plan. Ile thought
it indeed a valuable suggestion that any system should h'
thoroughly tested before they committed themselves to it.
He (the Solicitor-General) did not think the United States
was an example so favourable to the case of the hon. mem-
ber (Mr. Fox) as some were apt to suppose. All the state,
were not agreed on the subject—all did not exclude religion.
(Hear, hear.) The arguments which had been used with
respect to the effect of the want of education on crime he
held to be overcharged. No education would make crime
disappear. It was idle to talk of the poor giving their chil-
dren religious education at home. -Parents of this cle.a
came home from their labour worn out end ivied, and moray
of them had not the time even though they poseeseed the
will to impart religious instruction to their children.
Mr. TRELAWN Y—What is the church about ? (Hear,
hear.)
The SOLICITOR GENERAL—His hon. friend, the
member for Tavistoek, asked what the church was about.
The clergy were willing to do what they could for the reli-
gious education of the people, but in most of the manu-
facturing districts their number was so disproportioned to
the popalation,thattheyeould not undertake the instruction
of the people. He (the Solicitor-General) believed that a
child was educated by all he heard and saw, and it was of
the utmost importance that religious instruction should he
imparted to him as opportunity offered. To a schoolmaster
the opportunities were frequently occurring in which he
could imbue the mind of the scholar with sound religious
knowledge. Ile could do it in connexion with gee.
graph'', astronomy and many other subjects. Re
(the Solicitor-General) wished to see the fabric of our
national prosperity based, not merely on the intellectual
advancement of our people, but also on the development of
their moral and spiritual functions.
Mr. COBDEN thought the honourable and learned
gentleman did not deal fairly with the argument of the
hon. member for Staffordshire ; for he went upon the
assumption that the hon. gentleman supported two kinds
of education—an education of a secular, and au education
of a religions kind, both out of the public funds. Now he
(Mr. Cobden) understood the hon. gentleman to say there
was a provision for religious, but not for secular education,
and that he would agree to a system of secular education
rather than have none at all. The hon. and learned gen-
tleman said this system was impracticable, but the hon. and
learned gentleman forgot that his own plan had been tried
for Id years in this country, and had been brought to a dead
lock, and the right hon. baronet, the Secretary fur the
Home Department, admitted that the present spasm bed
failed, and he grounded his argument upon the fact that Som.,
gentlemen had come from Manchester with a new scheme,
and that ho believed their plan would succeed. If they
wanted a proof that the present system had failed, look at the
amount of money they had voted. For the last fit e years the
vote bad been 120,0001., no change, no increase, nothing
to meet the increase of population. And why ? Because
it was a subject that they dare not touch in that house,
because the present system was so unsatisfactory that in
spite of two large blue bookeof correspondence and minutes,
and these details over an expenditure of 124,000/., notwith-
standing all the efforts of the committee of privy council,
and he did not blame them for those efforts, hut he ho-
noured them for trying to do that which could not be done
in that house. No one knew better than did government
that they dare not stir the question with a view of getting
a grant commensurate with the wants of the country, in
order to carry out the system which at present exists. And
now what was it that government was falling hack upon ?
a local scheme in Manchester which had already failed in
precisely the same way as the government plau had failed
on these religious difficulties. The gentlemen who came
to town front Manchester did him also the honour
of calling upon him, and he rejoiced tone them endeavour-
ing to overcome the difficulties of realising a eyetom uf edu-
cation. They told him, 311 they told the right hon. gentle-
man, that they had the concurrence of ail the religious
sects, that the Rumen catholics had joined them as well as
the dissenters, but he received a letter from them after their
return to Manchester, that, to their surprise and regret
they bad to tell him that not two of the Rumau catholic clergy,
as the hon. and learned gentleman had stated, but 18, vir-
tually the whole body of the Roman catholic clergy, but
acceded from that plan of education. And why ? Simply
because the committee that met in Manchester made it
fundamental principle of their scheme, that in all schools
supported by the public rates in Manchester, the autho-
rized version of the Bible should be reed, and
that being a condition which the Roman cetho-
lies could not comply with, that, of course, separated
them altogether from this plan of education. Now, he
asked any one in that house, if any plan of public educa-
tion could be satisfactory in the boroughs of Manchester
and Salford combined, which excluded the poorest of the
poor classes. There were in Manchester and Salford at least
100,000 Roman catholics. They were the poorest of the
population, and if ignorance were au evil they were the
most dangerous part of the population to be left in igno-
rance. And yet this was a plan en which the right lion.
gentleman relied iu order to relieve him from the difficulty
he was in. They were in precisely the same difficulty in
Manchester that they were in in that house, fur he maintained
that the little good that was done was done surreptitiously
by the privy council, and not by a vote in that house. What
were the minutes of the privy council? Did they sup-
pose they would stand the debates in that house any
more than the motion of his hon. friend. Bring forward a
vote for the maintenance of Roman catholic colleges, in
which they would be allowed to carry on in their own pecu-
liar way their own doctrines and worship, and did they
think that vote would pees that house ? There was a funda-
mental evasion cud fallacy about the whole of this educa-
tional vote. He asked them, when they talked so much of
religious education, if this 115,0001. was for religious teach-
ing, because he understood when they were passing an
educational vote it was not fur religious education ? When
the vote was first agreed to, in 1831, it was called school
money ; it was 10,0001. or 20,0001. to begin with. After-
wards it was changed to education, but they did not vote
the money for religious education. Could they veto
any sum in that house if it were asked fairly
for religious instruction ? No, it could not be
done, and it could not be one for many years
past, and never more would they vote any money in that
house as an endowment fur religion. And, therefore, when
they talked to hint about voting for religious education, he
said it was not en accurate description of what they voted
it for. He said once for all, he considered there was
provision made for religious training, but not for secular
training, and therefore he wished to give them to secular
training. He wanted people to be able to read
and write—to be able to sigu their names when
they signed a contract or registered the birth of
their children. Ile wanted people to be trained in habits of
thought and forethought, and he did not know any other
term than secular education. But why ring the changes
upon secular education ? He said once for all that he was
not opposed to the bible or any other eeligious book being
read in schools. What he wanted was to have the same
system of education in England that they had in Islassaehus-
sets, in the United States of America. He would not go to
Louisiana or Georgia, but his system was that of Mesas-
chusseta. And he challenged hon. gentlemen to the test.
I Ile believed that when the system of free schools was
adopted, such would be the estimation in which education
would he held by the MASI of the people that it would not
be easy to keep children from the schools. Where was the
difficulty of their doing what had been done in Maasachus-
stets? He would not be driven from that ground. Give
him the Massachussets plan. He declared upon his honour
that the mass of the people in Maesachusseta were as eupe-
rlor to the mass of the people in Kent as the people
of Kent were to the people of Naples. Now,
there had been an objection made that they intended
to supersede existing school-rooms; it had been assumed
that the plan of his honourable friend must neces-
sarily throw to waste all existing schools belonging to
places of worship. Ile saw no necessity for that at
all. Ile considered they might make use of the existing
school-rooms, as well for this system as for any othor, and
he never contemplated such a waste as to render useless
existing schoolrooms. Now, the hon. and learned gentle-
man had told them, and the right MIL, gentleman the
Secretary of State for Home Affairs was of the same opi-
nion, that if they adopted this plan of secular education
they. would shut up all the other schools. That was an ad-
mission, by the way, that they were going to establish some-
thing better than the old system. But they went further,
and said when they shut up the schools they would de-
prive the people of religious education, because the great
bulk of the people got no religious instruction, now, ex-
cept what they got in their schools. When his ho-
nourable friend near him ejaculated what were the clergy
doing ? he thought that was a natural exclama-
tion. They paid 5,000,0001. or 6,000,000!. a year
to the clergy, and it was rather a bold thing for a devotes)
of the church to say if the children did not get religious
training in the schools they would get no religious training
at all. The hon. and learned gentleman, when he an-
swered that ejaculation of the hon. member for Taviatock,
turned immediately to the manufacturing hives, where,
from increase of population, he said, there was much igno-
rance. He begged the hon. and learned gentleman's par-
don, but the great mass of ignorance was not in the manu-
facturing towns, but in the rural districts—(hear, hoar)—
though he admitted there was much ignorance in the ma-
nufacturing districts, because the surplus population of the
Agricultural districts went to the manufacturing district.
He could not help expressing the great gratification which
he felt at the difference between the tone of the discussion
that evening and the tone of the debate last year. For his
own part, he must say that there was no other subject on
which he felt so tolerant towards everybody as ho did on
this subject of education. If he saw the government doing
something—he cared not how—he was grateful for it. If
he saw hon. gentlemen opposite--whether high church or
low church—trying to secure for the people a better educa-
tion, he thanked them. As a matter of economy—as a matter
of charity, goodwill, and kindness, let them all try to get on
neutral ground ; let them try to do so, not only on account
of this good which would thus be done to the mass of the
people of this country, who would never be educated under
any other system, but in order that they might have an
opportunity of meeting as it were out of the pale of those
religious strifes which were now more threatening than
ever. (Hear, hear.)
Bit R. INGLIS was as glad of the alteration in the tone
a the discussion as the hon. member for the West Riding;
bat, powerful an that hon. gentleman was as an advocate,
be must say that he had not proved himself a very good
advocate for the resolutions before the house. He rose, as
be understood, to support the proposition of the hon. mem-
ber for Oldham, but had he not that very evening proposed

that the Brie should be read ? Had he not declared that
ha was unwilling that a school should be established in
which the Bibb was not road? (Rm. boar.) He said the
bria. member for Oldham was not do rasa who would oh-
jest to that, mad he affectionately baud the shoulder of
ohs hoe. member as if to ask h moot, but the
Imeirablo mender he Oblong leeks& es be looked then,
semonable. (A lingh.) Fran the karratledge whisk he
hmd &bind of the no amber ballasesib to believed
b wail rat emut le the mindea el the Bible from any
asked me whisk he hid saff karma. Hs had atm
bon a am philosiumor a mien pmennal opeseh,
ens owe Saban ni dm b the* of the definer-
bausrel ; sad he the meement on having
their views defended by inn an adosits. Ho (air IL
yajlie s) had alldosimed it to be his opinion that know-
without wee am taninixed evil.
r. 8. H T r most say, in reference to an obser-
vers& of the has inambor far the West Riding. that in his
Oh. & Herber* *roe, any peon veiled in the de-
form ef that hem Mon, if present that evening, well
base esnevived Hot sae object 011ie Men washer fie Old-
Mon was to abellathe mound shrub elths eseshis
snit print against persona ar=risiagutienneste
they were the emblems' ho rail;
tested Anon Ilmt these whow did net at MOO adapt their
worms ware onslng at betimes and vice. (Hear.) The
=T r abbot ionismns Oft there must bc general
and that of that edaeation religion must ,form
es dement. TM bas. gentleman (Mr. Cobden) had
sadists a wrong paws bracaodntinually eontemslating Hs&
andramets intend , and herring that a system
wide/ was appirehle in the one reentry might Az, inap-
=in the esker. He said, however, that in the schools in
meets the MI6 was errenaliy seed. TM, was con-
fer yr the eyeless Otto' bow winks flerOklham. Besides,
if the bible were Mg deductions omit be drawn from it
by the mullet.. He would defy any MO to read the bible
without note Or osmaasnt ; they Taliht just so well put
Greek or Hebrew hate a boy's hands and tell him to read that
without note or reanser. He believed that a little mutual
accommodation lei rht do a great deal, but the great mum-
bling block was the general relecemme existing in this
country to take prercmptory instructions from • central
board. It was contrary to our habits of self-government,
and while people would gladly receive suggestions from
competent persons, they would be reluctant to take any-
thing which assumed the shape of dictation. Something
bed been said of the amount of heathenism in great towns,
sad also of the number of Roman catholic, who were con-
greg. sting in those localities from the sister country. Ile
confessed that attached as he was to the established church,
he felt snore alarm at the advantages which that communion
would have in consequent., of the absence of other
/religious instruction for the people. He felt, therefore,
that instnd of destroying, they must increase the amount
of religious instruction, add lie could assure the hon. mem-
ber for Oldham, that in depriving his schools of religious
instruction he would deprive them of all attraction for the
working classes, or if not, would deprive the children of all
chance of instruction in the very elements of Chri.tianity.
finch a system was opposed to their very highest authority,
who said, " Suffer the little children to come to me," and
therefore he felt obliged to give his opposition to the
motion.
_____

Mr. 1.. IIEYWORTH would oppose the motion, as de-
structive of the voluntary principle, which had already'
effected so much good. It was a farce to talk of giving the
people a free education if a rate was to be levied for the
purpose. Ile subscribed 2001. a year to education, and
should be sorry if such streams of voluntary contribution
were closed up by the substitute of a tax.
Mr. Fox, in replying, briefly touched upon the chief ar-
guments offered in opposition to his plan, remarking that
many of them touched only collaterally upon the education
question, but turned upon the relationship between church
and state.

The hove then divided:
For the motion
AL'aing 135-90