The Express.
London, England, 1848-06-02 00:00:00

BOROUGH OF DERBY.

Mr. COLVILE rose to move that Mr. Speaker do issue
his warrant to the clerk of the crown to make out a new
writ for the el,ctingtwo burcesaes to serve in this present per-
il iment for the borough of Derby, in tho room of the Right
Ifora.E. Strutt and Hon. E. F. L. Gawer,whose elections had
been determined to be void. The hen. member concluded by
moving that the writ do i sue.
Mr. A. STAFFORD seconded the motion ; and asked
how it was possible that any man who had read the petition
which had been presented from the inhabitants of Derby, a
town containing 43,000 population, mould be prepared to
suspend the writ for an indefinite period of time ? Since the
discuasiais which had token place on tiles.: subjects s 'me
light hod been thrown upon the con-equences which had
resulted from the course pursued. The refusal of a writ of
election for a constituency, whether small or large, on the
ground of bribery, treating, and corruption, had been at-
tende 1 with tlis result A offers • bribe to 13; B accepts
it; C informs by petition modest both, acd is the end all
three are disfranchised. Such was the justice which the
house bad dealt out. (Hear, hear.) In future, if C pos•
seeks an rive rage amount of common sense, he will, after
the course the house has taken, withhold his peti-
tion against A and LI, seeing that the remelt will
be, after much trouble and expense, his own die-
franchisement. And this was done by three who stood up
for fair and impartial justice—who wished to be considered
the models of purity, and who asked the enlargement of the
constituencies of the kingdom. Wien those on his (Mt
Stafford's) side of the house asked the house not to deprive
the innocent of their political rights and privileges, because a
few were guilty, boo. members opposite chanted them with
toeing in favour of bribery and corruption. If this system
was carried out further, it would compictely eilene2 the voice
of petitioners, becau-e if it was shown that the certain result
of a petition was, that neither the innocent petitioners nor
their fellow-townsmen should have a voice in that house, it
was not in human nature or common sense to expect that
these delinquencies would be exposed, because men would say
let bribery and corruption go on, rather than we should be
deprive: of cur voice in the legislature. Seeing the petition
which had come up from Derby; the number of the constitu-
ency, and also the small amount of brinery reported by the
committee, bethought the writ ought not to be longer with-
held. If it was r. fused to-night he would bring it under
the notice of the house day after day and time after time, in
order to test who were those who, under a pretext of purity,
withheld political privileges from so large a portion of their
fellow.eitirens. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME said be had thought that the almost unani-
mous expression of opinion of the house on • previous occa-
sion in favour of the propriety and justice of suspending
this writ would have prevented any attempt to renew
the motion for its issuing. The hon. member (Mr. Staf-
ford) accused those who objected to the writ with acting tin
jusey in deprivinz their fellow-subjects of their political
rights. His (Mr. Hume's) object was to aseerLin fully to
what extent these corrupt deeds and malpractices had been
carried on, and not in the meantime to enable these constitu-
encies to repeat th,se malpractices, because they were unjust
to the rest of the community.
Sir G. GREY said the question now before the house was,
not whether there ought to be en inquiry into the extent of
the corruption which it was said had prevailed at Derby at
the last and previous elections, but whether the circum-
stances apparent from the evidence which the election com-
mittee had submitted to the house were such as to justify
the suspdheion of the writ fur an indefinite period. (Hear,
hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) might be open to the charge
of throwing a shield over corruption and bribery, hut he was
prepared to meet that charge rather than consent to an in-
definite suspension of the political privileges of a large con-
stituency, against the greater portion of which no charge
whatever attached. (Hear, hear.) The report of the
Derby committee slid not, as the Yarmouth committee
had, recommend the suspension of the writ until measures
were taken for
.the disfranchisement of the freemen; but

even if that had b.en so, the house had been told on a
former occasion that the number of freemen in Derby was
only about 110, while there were 1,400 electors under the
101. household suffrage, against whose purity no charge
whatever was made. Ile should, therefore, vote for the
issuing of the writ.
Mr. RICE inquired whether, if the writ issued, it would
have the effect of excluding Derby from the operation of the
Borough Elections Bill, introduced by the hon. baronet near
him ? (Sir J. Ilanmer.)
Sir G. GREY replied in the negative.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that he could discover no dis-
tinction between the eases of Derby and Yarmouth, and he
thought the house would stamp its course with the character
of vacillation, and would create in the minds of the people a
doubt as to its sincerity in putting down corruption, if it
consented to the motion now before it. (Rear, hear.)
Bir J. BANNER said that after the speech of the right
hon. baronet (Sir G. Grey) he thought the SIVNIPIIII of his
bill very doubtful. It was said that because Derby had a
large constituency it ought not to remain unrepresented ;
but did the extent of the constituency show its purity ? On
the contrary, had not the house that very day heard of
another large and important constituency, that of Leicester,
where the committee reported they were so corrupt that the
case was recommended to the especial attention of the house.
(Hoar, bear.)
MZGOULBURN was prepared to assent to the motion for
the Mining the writ for Derby.
fdr. MUNTZ opposed the motion.
Col. SIBTIIORI also opposed the motion.
After a few words from Mr. Cotvlte and Sir J. BAN-
NER, in explanation,
The house divided.—For the motion

Against it
it of this result was received with loud

SPANISH AFFAIRS.
In answer to a series of questions from Me. BAtLLIE
(which were not heard in the gallery owing to the confusion
caused by members leaving the house),
Viscount PALMERSTON said—l have to state in the
first place, that the Spanish minister, ',turd; some time
ago, announced to me the arrival of Count de Mirasol in
London, for the purpose of giving exp'anations and state-
ments with regard to recent transactions at Madrid. My
reply to that was, that whatever communications the govern-
ment of Spain wished to make upon those matters to her
Majesty's government, I should be quite ready to receive
from the official and aecredited organ of the Queen of Spain
in this country—(hear, bear)—but that I thought it my
duty to decline entering MO any communication with the
Count de Mirasol. (near.) 1 also stated that, considering
the nature and character of the
~_evouts. to. which thes°
communication, were to relate, p :nought desirable, at
Gil events, in the lint place, iht t,; "b communication,

should be made in writing. (Hear, hear.) I have received
some communications from the S minister; upon
those subjects I am in communication with him at the pre-
sent moment; but I do tot feel it my duty at resent to
state anything upon those matters to the house. Whenever
:hose communications are brought to a close, probably I may
feel it my duty to lay the correspondence on the table of the
house ; but of course it is not for me to say on what day, or
at what time. that will he.
Mr. BANK ES wished to ask the noble lord whether he
would next day
i move that the house should go into commit-
tee of supply, n order to give him (Mr. Danko") the oppor-
' inlay of bringing on his motion on the Spanish question ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said, if the resolutions on the naviga-
tion laws were agreed to and reported that night, mud the
hill founded thereon brought in, he should propose to go
into committee of supply the next day; if not, he should
propose to go Into committee next dot, with a view of con-
ridrnng these resolutions, end in that case, should take the
committee of supply on Mondsy.
COPPER DUTIES.
Mr. WYLD inquired if it was true that ships laden with
foreign cooper. which had recently arrived, had been allowed
to discharge their cargoes ;Ari payment of the Is. duty pro-
posed by the bill now passing through the house.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE said it world prevent me ;At incon-
venience if notice was alwaya given of questi-4„, of this
nature. lie hail no knowledge of the ma.t'.r beyond the
general practice which had always ohtaine's in all cases of
remission of duty—namely, that as sour. as the house had
atlirmee the resolution for a rernissi,,n of any duty, parties
were allowed to enter their gm ds at the lower rate, giving a
bond Mr the payment of the difference, should the house not
tonally sanction the reduction. Ile had no reason to believe
that a ditlerent course had been punted with regard to
copper.
Mr. WYLY, said he' must contolain of this course.
(Order, order.) Ile would move the adieu' nment of the
house, to be in order. Ile suspected, f tom the unusually
larg- importations of foreign copper which hod recently beta
made, that the parties must have received some intimation
of what the govenim nt were ',taut to whereby a serious
loss had been entailed on the copper miners of thin country.
WEST INDIA COLONIES.

In answer to Mr. Hymn,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that on the ITith or 11th of the
present month some member of the government would lw
prepared to state the enure whirs was meant to be 1 ursued
ith regard to the West India colonies.
NAVIGATION LAWS—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. J. WILSON craved the indulgence of the house in
r ference to some observations which lie had made on Mon-
day. On that oecasion he had referred to a letter from ID°
Janeiro, stating that Desired British ships were lying there
unable to obtain cargoes, and to a corroborative statemant
which had subsequently been posted at Lloyd's. The hon.
gentleman opposite, the chairman of Lloyd's (Mr. O. liu•
binson), had s.tid that was altogether untrue.
Mr. O. ROBINSON—I said it was atesoltvely untrue.
Mr. WILSON wished to afford the hon. gentleman the
opportunity of stating whether his words referred to the
fact °finch a document having been posted at Lloyd's, as the
house apparently underst sod him, or whether he redeemd to
the Con of the vessels lying unemployed at Rio Janeiro.
Mr. ROBINSON sail as he should afterwards address the
ho.ise on the general question, ho would rather defer his
aplanation till then. (Ns.) If it was the wish of the
house ho would now give it. There was no difference of
opinion whatever as to a certain letter or extract basing
been posted at Lloyirs—thear, hearl—or as to the pert ct
accuracy ul the statement mule by the hon. nsemlier for
Wt gamey. (Hear, hear ) His denial was strictly meant to
be confined to the inference drawn from the fact stated, of
there being eight first-class vessels at Rio Janeiro un-
freighttsl, whilst all the foreign vessels were obtaining
teights; that inference being that the reason of their re•
mailing unfreisrhted was the bad character of the ships and
the masters. (Hear.)

•
Mr. MITCIIELL said he knew the writer of the letter.
It was entirely a letter of business, written without any
reference whatever to the navigation laws. The denial of
the hen. member for Poole having gone before the public, a
gentleman who had recently returned from Itio Janeiro had
emu.. nit yard, and Mattel that the matter was precisely as it
had been represented by the hon. member for NVestbury, and
that the rea,en why the English ships were unehartered was
the general '•ad conduct of the English captains. He added
thet insist houses in Europe had given directions to their
agents there not to charter English ships at all if they could
get foreign ones. (Ilea:, hear.) Such was the statement
given by parties who had no interest whatever in the naviga-
tion laws. . . . .

Mr. ROBINSON.—I shall he prepared to show that the
statement with respect to the but character of the masters
cud the ships is alt otether untrue.
Mr.MITCHELL.—I mid nothing the badness of the
ships.
Mr. I.IOFFATT regretted that the forms of the house had
prevented biro from presenting a petition from his consti-
tuents against any alteration of the nav;uation laws. He did
not same in the sentiments of that petition ; bat believed,
from the favourable effect of past changes during the last 20
rears, th it the altem:i in now prop would be benelici tl.
}'rem the mom, nt that our tonnage had been in caress of
the quantity required for our coasting and colonial trade and
f•r the fisheries, the benefit of the navigation laws had erased,
but the obstructions which they created had continued.
Many hon. members had expressed great alarm a. to the
cilia of this meisure, but they had failed to show any
ground for it. He did not believe that the measure would
be detrimental to British shipping, and he would, therefore,
give it his cordial support.
Mr. ROBINSON did sot think there ever was a measure
submitted to the house involving such momentous Cons!.
quences which was supporteel by such fee hie arguments.
The right hon. gentleman presented a petition the other
yenta", signed by 272 bankers, metchanth &c., of Lot don,
in favour of the measure. He looked over the name at-
tached to that petition, and he found that there were but
few of the large merchants of London to be found in it.

Mr. LABOUCHEItE—The governor and deputy-gover.
nor of the Bank of England.
Mr. ROBINSON.—It was principally signed by solicitor.,
tradesmen, and shopkeepers. But what would the right hon.
gentleman say to the petition which had been presented to
the house by the right hon. gentleman the member for
Sti *fiord, which was signed by I poi) of the principal hankers,
merchants, and trailers of London ? ( Hear, hear.) Ile
would find that the names attached to that petition far out-
wei and those appended to the petition he presented. And
1..:1 regiad to petitions generally on the subject, those
against the measure were far more numerou. than those pre-
sented in its lavour. ( Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle.
man said that Jamaica end Canada petitioned in fan, ur of
the measure. That was true ; but their object in doirc so
was to indemnify themselves at the expense of the British
shipowners for the low which they suffered from the free-
trade legislation of that house. He therefore att iehed no
importance to the application from those places. The right
hon. gentleman then spoke of a menace m Pringle if
they did not alter their navigation lees. Ile hoped that this
country had not yet fallen into such • position that they
would be required to alter their policy with respect to com-
merce and navigation at the menace of Prussia or
any other state. (Hear, heat.) Prussia had nothing
to offer them in exchange; besides that, the policy
of Prussia, as the principal state of the Zollverein, was
not such as should induce them to pass a measure
for her benefit. The right hon. gentleman said also that the
United States promised to reciprocate if they passed this
measure. He had watched for several years the legislation
of that country, and he cculd not see anything like a liberal
commercial policy in her measures. After the intelligence
of the intention of the government of this country to alter
the navigation laws had reached America one of the most
respectable papers of Washington expressed its delight
" because," it said, " the enterprise of our merchants, and
the advantages we enjoy, will enable us to acquire a large
portion of the trade with the British colonies." (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Robinson) believed the effect of this mea-
sure would be to throw the whole of the inter-colonial
trade into the hands of the Americans, because, situated as
America was in respect to those colonist, it would lie im-
piwsible for the British shipowner to compete with her.
From the time of Washington to that of Mr. Polk the ob-
ject of the American republic was to create a powerful
marine force ; and this measure, if unhappily it should
pass, would greatly contribute to that result. As America
bad not the least advantage to off.r them in return they
were not called upon to pass such a measure as the present.
lie complained of the mode and means adopted by the go-
vernment to carry their measure—he alluded more particu-
larly to the letter which had been sent to their consuls
abroad. So far, however, from the consuls having reported
universally against British ship-muter., they had frequently
giv• reports favourable to them. He maintained, however,
that British consuls, who were generally persons who once
beonged to the army, were not the fittest judges on surh a
subject. If the government wished for corrert information
they should not have sent the leading letter which Mr.
Murray wrote. (Hear.) Was it worthy the government to
tied( to blacken the character of respectable men ? (Hear.)
There were some amongst them who might be liable
to animadversion, but on the whole the masters of
British ships were as respectable as any other class of
person.. ( Ilear.) The hon. gentlemen then proceeded to
read c etraets from the letters of the consuls in reply to the
letter which had been addressed to them. Mr. Brooker, the
consul at Cronatadt, said that for 59 years only two cases
had occurred there of master. obstructing the custom-house
officers. Two men had been accused of theft. This was all
that could be alleged against British seamen in Cronstadt
for a period of .-19 years, although there were .500 ships a year
there on the average, with crews amounting to 295,000.
(Hear, hear.) Col. Whitehead, of Archangel, said that
there were a few cues of charges against British masters,
hut they were comparatively rare. Col. Wright, of Rigs,
Mr. Games, of Odessa, Consul Liddell, of Memel, and Mr.
bl'Oregor, of Elsineur, made reports of a similar nature.
An Hos. Mem ItElt here moved that the house be counted.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but the requisite num-
ber of memben being present.
. . . . .

. -
Mr. ROBINSON continued his address by saying he was
surprised that on so important a subject—one which it was
desirable to have fully discussed—an attempt should have
been made to count out the house. (Hear, hear.) He
would read no more of the consul's reports, but would ob.
serve merely that they were not generally unfavourable to
British shipmasters. Now, in reference to the statement of
the hon. gentleman opposite, that British vessels could not
get freighted at Rio Janeiro in consequence of the bad cha-
ratter of the vessels, whilst foreign vessels readily get
freighted, he begged to say that be had received a fetter,
dated the Ist of April (the very date to which the hon. gen-
tleman
referred), in which it was stated that the reason why
the British vess.•ls were not freighted was, that the masters
would not accept the low freightage offered them. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member had accepted his information too
readily and too credulously, and he ought to have taken
same pains to ascertain not only that the fact was correct,
but that the inference he drew was warranted.

Mr. WILSON—It i. not my inference.
Mr. ROI3LNSOII—Tha right hon. gentleman referred to