The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-23 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 23, 1848,

SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
On.the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Lord G. BENTINCK said that all he asked by the present
motion was that the Englishman who bonded sugar should
be put on an equal Luting with the subjects of Holland, Bel-
gium, and Hanover—that be should be permitted, whether
the sugar was British colonial sugar or foreign sugar, to en-
ter It paying the highest foreign duty on all that sugar. He
eked that he should be entitled to enter his sugar, paying
that duty, without betel{ obliged, as he new was, in
order to obtain equal pm:lege, with the Dutchman, to
carry over hie sugar to Anrsterdsm and then bring it back
here. He did not think that a British House of Commons
should allow such a • ',stem to continue— that the
should be obliged to carry his sugar
t to be entitled to the same privileges as the
He was not asking for protection, but that
ire felt play to the industry, skill, and. energy

of their own countrymen • that they would not put • ban on
the refiners of England whilst they left freedom t
nubleo the
lord re-
finers of foreign countries. (Hear, hear.) The
concluded by moving the following clause :
And whereas It is expedient to admit sugar, without payment
of duty, to be relined for home consumption, under the lock
of the crown, be it further enacted. that it shall be lawful tor
any perron or persons who may be now, or who may be here.
after engaged, under the provisions of the nets of the S & 4
Will. IV., c. at, and 6 & 9 Vie., g 91, in the trade of relining
sugar in bond fee exportation, to enter the producta extracted
from
the Fame for home consumption,anything in the aforesaid act
or ode, or any other act to the contrary notwithltandmg, at
of dunce tern. if won foreign sugar, as rot forth in the third echedule
of this act, under the same re:warrens as are now or may hereafter
DO applied by her Mointy'e ofticers of custom, to the expel...rano of
such vegtr; provided always, that such person or ',wens as afore-
paid ebail previously give bend to V c satisfaction of
h her M jaestbeen
y's
commissioners of customs to use such lOW only as eal hav
imieated in grips privileged wider the navigation Uwe to impart
sugar for entry to home consumption.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he had on:y the same answer to the noble lord that he gave
before. He was not then going to give any opinion on the
subject of a general system of refining in bond, but if any
change was to he made it must be a general one. lie seid
before, and he now repeated, that her Majesty's good' meat
would devote their attention to the subj, et during the recut.
There were great practical ffifficultics its the way e f the pro-
posal of the noble lord.
Mr. BERNAL thought that the noble lord, in proposing
this clause,, had been &etre. d by those who instrunted
nun to more it. He did not ask for that clause, but fie de-
manded as en act of judice to all that all descriptions of
sugar should be admitted to be refined in this country. He
did not leek up.n this as • romantic or hypothetical ea-
sure' he believed it to be perfectly practicable. Wnh
geed to the general question of the Sugar Bill, le t him tell
the house list by their merle of dealing with it they were
playing with an important interest, and bringing ruin on
tin se who were interested in the production of sugar.
(Hear.) Since the late de ussions on this, subject the sugar
market had been dries a down tt the extent of 31. per cwt.
He spoke as a practical roan, and he said that by those dis-
cus fauns they bia to a certaia extent extracted from the
re elects of those who were concerned in the growth of sugar
50s. or even 3!. for every hogehead of sugar.
laet them come to some definite conclusion on the subject.
Let then determine whether their colonies were worth pre-
serving or not. Ile asked no more than that they should
virile to some decisive conclusion. (Hear, hear.) lie bed
his own opinions. Ito did not blame ethers for having
different skews; but, so help his God, he was pr, pared to
assert 'hat they would not have their COi011ie• for three year,
longer so es to be worth preserving. (Hear, heir.) They
wo
uld
be redte e thm te such a state uf elistrese and
nistead ot beinge a credit to the mother country, tie,'
be her disgrace. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN agreed with the right hon. gentleman
all to the necessity :or framing some general system, and of
passing a me •sure embracing the whole question of refining
sugars It bond, as well foreign as Braise colonial produce.
huh el, he regretted the government had not thought
proper to take this question into consideration at an earlier
p. rival of the session ; but, as it was too Lee new, lie should
lea' it his duty to vote against the amendment of his nole
*fiend, b.cause it only elected a partial auu riot a general
change.
Mr. HERRIES complained of the great injustice done to
the sugar interests by the frequent changes made in the duties
by the government. Those asterations had had the effect of
disoreauting the colonies and of renderiug them disaffected,
and every packet brought fresh news of increasing disaffec-
ti.ei throughout the te est belies, He sbould give his vote
for the clause.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would not enter into the general
question, as that had been suflicieutly debated, hut he would
enly say that he differed materially from the rigl.t hon. gen-
tleman or posite, in thinking that the only means of relieving
tee to est Indies we.s by imposing a permanent high protective
duty. The ample:nig made by the noble lord of the pros-
tration of the sugar growers in the West Indies might be
true to a c rtain event, but if he would look at au article in
the Times of yesterday he would find that raw sugars were
rising in price at Jamaica, (or a parcel was queted at 175. a
cwt. which had only a few days before b ,en offered at 12..
Lord G. BENTINCEI.—If the right bon. gentleman will
read a little further he will find that the cause alleged for
this rise in price is that the whist government was expected
shrilly to he turned out. (A 1-ugh.)
Pr. LABOUCHERE.—That expectation roes not alter
the tact that sugar has risen in price at Jamaica.
Mr. HUME declared his intention to vote for the clause,
as the cffinitted reason for its rejection was the ditheulty
mete by the customs cellars in respect to levying the duties.
If the right hon. gentleman chose he could compel those
Aticers to do their duty, and not to impede a wholesome
reform by excuses of that kind.
Mr. IfAILLIE net that he found upon censid, ration that
the sugar refiners were treated with great injustice by the
eel' before the house, and he should therefore support the
clause of the noble lord.
Mr. MOFFATT also stated that he could discover no
valid niecin for not insertir.g the clause in the bill, and he
sheik' certainty feel it to be his duty to vote for it.
Mr. M'GREGOR said that unites some general measure
for refining Britian and foreign sugars in 'mud for home con-
sumption and for exportation was uevised no good could be
effected, and he sheulis therefore vote against the partial
proposition embodied in the present dense.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had made every inquiry with respect to the possibi-
ity of allowing refiners to reties in bond for home as well as
f foreign consumption, but at present the difficulties were
found to be so great as to oppose insuperable obiectiatis to
such a plan. He hoped inn Car days to be enabled to lay
the most recent despatches received from the West Indite ou
the table of the house, when he should be prepared t state
the views which ho entertained with respect to those colo-
nies. 1 Hear.)
Mr. G. THOMPSON said that the English refiners in
bond had • right to be placed in as favourable a position u
the Dutch refiners, and he should, therefore, vote for the
&ALM, as ing one step towards effecting that object. He
believed the re was se me Dutch influence at the bottom of the
government opposition to the clause, for on no other grounds
could be explain the conduct of ministers, (Hear, and •
laugh.)
Mr. J. WILSON said that the clause was brought for-
ward by the noble lord, not in consequence of the wishes of
the body of refiners on general, taut at the instance of a
single house, which combined the two trades of refiners is
hood for the export market, and of refining for the
home arket, e whou peculia business the elates was
expreesmly framed to accommodate.r Se tars l
being in
accordance with the interest or wishes of the other sugar
refiners the clause was strongly opposed by them, and he
had only that day presented a petition signed, amongst
others, by one of the first sugar refrain:, Louses in London
against the proposition of the noble lord,
The house di,idtd.—Fcr the clause 4O
Against it 7O-30
The clause was consequently rejected.
Died G. BENTINCK moved, in schedule 2, " That the
brown cloyed duties be severally reduced to 16s. 6d., 15s. 11.,
145., 12,.9.1., 12.. 31., Ils. 64. ; and, in schedule 4, in the
first column of drawbacks, 16s. 4d. be reduced to Ifs. 3d.
With respect to the second part of his amendment, the
noble lord said that the errs: it sought to remedy was of no
commercial imeortance, his object being merely to correct a
blunder of :he R etht lion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the noble lord was wrong in hie calculatious ; but, whether
or not, on the noble lord's own aemiasion the matter was
of no commercial importance, and therefore he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) would not take up the time of the
house with i:s discussion.
The house divided, a separate division being had on each
sent.
amendOn
first—Against
On the second—For IG
Against
The bill then passed.
SUPPLY.
The report of the cerereitme of supply (Irish miscellaneous
estimates) was brought up and agreed to.
The house adjourned at half-put 3to half-past 5 o'clock.;,
The house resumed at halt-past 6 o'clock.
THE INDIAN MAILS.
Mr. OSBORNE wished to know from the Secretary of the
Admiralty—
Whether any and what tenderewerereceived by the Admiralty foe the
converance of the Calcutta mails, monthly, betneen Southomoton and
Alexandria, in oonaequenoe of their advertisement of the 17th day of
April laid; and it one, from whom, and the amount of each tender re.
apectively :—also, whether soy tender, so received, has beetsacctepted,
and, if so, nnme the party and the sum agreed upon 1 Sod i have
so hap' enrol that no tenders were received, then state wine. other ars
nngements have been made for performing the service, so the
with the Peninsular and Oriental Compaq expares on the 31st day of
Dec. next.
He should also wish to know whether the report that the
mails were to he conveyed by war steamers was correct?
Mr. WARD said there was no intention on the part of the
government. to convey the mail by war steamers. Two ten-
ders had been received in answer to an advertisement from
the government, but both had been rejected, because it was
considered that they were much higher than the government
bad a right to expect. As there were negotiations going ea
for a performance of the contract on more reasonable terms
the house would excuse him for not entering at large epos
the eubjeet. But he hoped to effect a considerable saving et
the public money.. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME wished to inquire of the President of the
Board of Control why the same facilities of send'ng and eh,- ,1
misting parliamentary papers by mail were not afforded is
the case of India and China as of any other possession ell
the crown ?
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said the reason Was, that In
con-
sequence of the rate of postage those papers were sent in
private vessels round the Cape. With regard to the charges
in India, any papers welt from one place to another were
charged by weight, and the home government had no right
to interfere.
COUNTY COURTS.
Capt. PECHELL wished to know from the Secretary of
State what were the intentione of the government with re-
spect to the remuneration of the bailiffs of the County
Courts?
Sir G. GREY said that considerable difficulty, was found
in providing due remuneration for high bailiffs in the sgri
mattered districts. If a general table of fees WB5 adopted, it
would raise the remuneration in populous districts beyond
all prop •rtion. (Hear, beer.) An inquiry was now going
on, and he hoped the result would be that the high bailiffs
would be rendered unnecessary. As the ditties were per-
formed by assistants he d.d not think they had much ground
of complaint.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that several complaints had
Leen made in the district which he represented that different
clerks of the County Courts resided at a great distance from
the immediate locality of the courts.
Sir G. GREY said that several complaints had r-aehed
him on that subject, but measures were in contemplation
which would remedy the evil.

Till AltelAH OF SATTARA.
In reply to the following questions by Mr. 0. TUOMPSON :
Whether any Info:toad= Ims reached this country relative to the
intentions of the Inchon government respecting the succeseion to the
vacant Cladeeog &Wars; ender what circumstances the adminiatra-
ton of affairs re Sextant la at present conducted, and who are the
parties responsible for them anagement of the revenues of that tel
by
re.
they: for what reason the sum of tiny thousand rupees ioisigned
te government of India for the payment of charges ounnectud situ
the funeral obsoluic a of the late Rajah of Setters, Pertsub Sing, his
been withheld fro, ehalem Slaharoj, the adopted run of hie highnera;
why the eilowanee of ten thou.nil mine monthly, puidmut of the
revenues of the :Intern state, to the late ROA Pertaith Sing. for the
maintenanc of himself, his family, and hie dependents, has been
suspended piece Ms higliners'a death; whether, in Uu event of re-
fusing to allow of the SUCAOSAWI of Skshoo Stahare): the adopted son
of the late carob, to the (Melee of Saluda, the gave' nment will wel-
der themselves of liberty to ranetion the annexation of the Sattura
territory, without the previous coment of parliament ;
Sir J. C. HOBROUSE said that in geyser to the first
question he had to sly, No. In reply to the second, the an
ewer era., that at present the Bondi Resident at Saone
was conducting the government, and eras responsible to
the government of Bombay. lie employed the native
agents who hart lieen employed during the lifetime of -he
late r jab. With regard to the third ,vowquestion as per-
lectly true that a lean of 60,000 rupees (5 00014 allowed,
and a very handsome allowance it was, for the funeral of the
rajah. But hie widow roused to tette that s ens, and would
not give a receipt for it unless the mine 1.11111 was given to
the adopted son of she raj as was Oven to the late rajah.
As she would not gi • conmen rece it was
resolved that she shove uld eat have theipt money.
With rcepect to the fourth question, the reason was that
the rajah was dead, and it was never intended or stated that
the personal allowance to him should be continued to his
son. With respect to the filth questiop the simple snows?
was that the government of India were entrusted by parlia-
ment with those high function; and therefore a previous
sanction was not n em ssarv.
SUGAR RETURNS.
Lien 0. BENTIN C K rose to nerve for returns, showing
in sontigueets columns the impoiset ions of !Mesh po.seislon,
and of for, ign sugar", as given respectively in tiala monthly
returns of the Board of Trade, and of those of the customs
for the months of September, October, November, and
December of last year ; and showing the importations of
these various descriptions of sugar, at made up by the cus-
toms in each of the above menthe, thatinguialling the amount
of sugar imported into the five ports of London, Liverpeol,
Bristol, Hull, and the Clyde, from the anieunts imported in
the same p riots trim the remaining ports of the United
Kingdom. lie ware induced to make this metier%
because he found that great decrepancii s existed be-
tween the returns of the Board of Trade and what
wire called the customs bills. In one case the Board of
fora retur "Mowed an importation of West India augur
r the months of Decent ter and J entity, to the amount el
23,72.1 tons, whilst the customs bills shewe d an entry of only
14,019 tons, being a difference ot no lem than 9,1,73 bins.
The customs made up their returns from day to day, whilat
the Beard of Trade dill sot intervals of three or four weeks,
so that it the latter were wrong, these woe the less excuse fur
it. At all events, there must be errors on some side, and it
was right that they should not tick,. place, b eeus, such fal-
lacious returns had effected the ruin of many prudent specu-
lators.
Mr. LAI3OUCHERE said that the noble lord had in the
present 1. stance made one of those discoveries which went
by the name of mere's nests. It wou'd be very surprising if
the returns of the Beard of Trade and the customs bills did
tally ex ictly. The customs bills were made up 'rum officiel
documents. But they were published by a committee, and
so there were no means of testiee the it acetic icy, the cus-
toms was by no means responsible :or their accuracy,
althouith he had tio eoubt they were in the main comet.
What they tad in the Board of Trade waste eild the heures
given them by the custom.. There woo no room for
charging either the 13, and of Trade or the customs with in-
accuracy. He hoped the noble lord would net press
the former part of his motion; to the letter he had no
objection.
After a few words from Lord 0.
Mr. HUME said that it would save tune, trouble, and ca-
per,. , if whaler forms were prepared by each department of
the public service, which could ha filled up whenever returns
were asked fr.
Mr. ROBINSON did not think tint the explanation of
the right hon. gentleman had ac. merited for the great
6ifference which wee ahowir tot sine by the noble lord in the
returns of the Board of Trade end customs.
After a few words hem Mr. Ileeeev, Sir C. Wool',
and Mr. SitouNnit,
Mr. WILSON t xplaffii el that the apparent discrepancie
s
between the two lists referred to by the noble lord arose
from the circumstance that the one nag copied hoe the
ships' manifests tee they we re reported, whereas the customs
or official returns were only compiled ;Jeer the ships' cargoes
had gone through all the entries reeuired by the customs
duties laws.
Mr. 111•OREGOR said that he was quite convinced that
a total change must take pl.e.e in the mode of making out
official returns.
Mr. 'DISRAELI said it had been his lot to hear the
noble lord charged with discovering n.ar. 's erste no less
than nix times dominghe preseet seesion, eut it so hapeerted
that every one of those nests had turned out the reinarkal•ly
prolific. Thus the Chancellor had admitted the truth of the
noble lord's proent enarge, and another hon. member had
admitted that the noble lord's statement proved that great
Worms were requisite and would be effected in the motoms
department, so that the noble lord's mare's nest had again
proved resonant in a very striking manner.
Mr. LABO CCHEM: said he had no objection to the re-
turns being made, but only protested limiest the statements
of the noble lord in respect to them.
Sir It. PEEL said it would he establlshing a dangerous
precedent to [sanction returns being laid on the table of tee
house which were not derivt d from official authority. The
semimfficiel returns referred to by the noble fort might be
supplied without Riving them het tamp of official authority.
Lord J. RUSSELL mid that e returns mu.t. be given
upon a very different plan from that tit emote by the noble
lord, and quite divested from all official sanction.
Mr. HERMES said that the returns moved for by the
noble lard would not effect thc object sought for by him ; if
government would agree to supply the informatiou required
it would far better arewer the purpose.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER undertook
to perform this task alit was left to the government by the
noble lord.
Atter a few word, from Mr. BnoWN,
Lord G. BENT I NCK withdrew his.motion on the under-
standine offered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Motion by leave withdrawn.
COMMERCIAL DISTRESS.—REPORT OF THE
COMMITTEE.
Mr. HERItIES brought forward his motion for calling
the attention of the house to the reports from the committees
or this house and the House of Lor is on commercial distress,
end to move that this house will, early in tie next session,
take the same into its serious considetetion, and stated that
he had dune so necause it was impossible that the subject
could be gone into during the present session; and also,
fearing lest the public should suppose that the important
subject of the two reports was to he pas-ed over without any
notice whatever by parliament. The right hon. gentleman
then entered into as historical statement of the circumstances
out of which the appointment of the two parliamentary com-
mittees on commercial distress arose, commeneing with the
introduction by Sir it. Peel of the currency measures of the
' session of 1844-5. All these things might have happened
without anything occuring to bring the theory and principle
of this act to the test for grneratiens ; but it so happened
that it had been fully and fairly tested within the short
pe-
riod of three years.. He thought it might now be asserted
without fear of contradiction that it had not prevented ex-
travagant spenul then or extraordinary fluctuations in the
value of money. (Hear, hear.) They had Yen the Beek
charging at one period three and at another ten per cent.
for discounts. (Hear, hear.) Neither had this measure se-
cured the convertibility of money, which had b en an-
nounced so one of its main objects. (near, hear.) But it
was not enough to show that the act had not done what it
had promised ; he WAS also prepared to show that it had
verified many of the predictions of its opponents. (Hear,
hear.) For this purpose it would be sufficient fur him to
state that within a comparatively short period of its enact-
ment government were obliged to step in and suspend its
provisions. (Hear, hear.) What had parliament done
in that crisis—a parliament summoned chiefly on
account of the emergency it had created? It confirmed
the suspension by the government of the act of 1844. (Hear,
hear ) In the observations he was about to make he should
confine himself to the restrictive clauses of the act, end his
object was to induce the house to give the public reason for
hoping that those provisions would be taken into considera-
tion, with a view to their modification, in the ensuing see-
' Ilea. Government had anticipated him in some sort by
toeing early for a committ-e, but the only effect of that had
-een to throw the matter over to the present late period of
the session ; and, besides, the composition of that committee
had been far from satisfactory. Of twent)-six members, au
unusually large number, oily eight or nine were of views
different from them 01 the government, the rest being indif-
ferent or strong parti-ans of the set. Abut the same time
the Lords had appointed a similar committee, and it was to
the reports of these two committees he wished to draw
the attention of the house, in the hope that they
would induce the house to accede to the present mo-
tion. The Commons hail rep-orted in favour of the act, but,
as he thought he should be able to prove, without sufficient
Justification from the evidence. (Hear.) The House of
Lords, on the contrary, had reported on the same evidence
that the principle of the act of 1844 required amendment, in
as tar as the restrictive clauses were concerned. Here, then,
were two committees reporting in direct opposition. ( Hear.)
Now he should, in the first place, endeavour to show on
how slender a foundation the Commons' report was based,
and how inconsistent it was with the evidence taken.
(Hear.) A resolution to that effect was mooted in the com-
mittee itself, but it was overruled by the dexterity of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, who brought in to vote at the
eleventh hour hon. members who had not previously
honoured the committee with their presence, and conse-
quently heel not heard a tittle of the evidence. He could
not help observing another remarkable circumstance con-
nected with that committee. Six of its members were mer-
cantile men, and of them five voted constantly with the
minority. (Hear, hear.) He should now attempt an
analysts of the evidence taken before that committee, They
had examined 26 witnesses, two only of whom were
connected with the East Indies, reducing the number whine
evidence bore directly on the question to 24. Those he
would distr.bute into five classes. The first and most im-
portant class consisted of the persona delegated by great
commercial bodies to represeat their opinion. This classcon-
taMed lour witnesses—Mr. Bevan, who was deputed by the
London bankers ; Mr. Birkbeck, by the country bankers ;
Mr. Kinnear, from the beakers of Glasgow; and Mr.
hiTarlane, from those of Edinburgh. The opinions of all
those gentlemen were to the effect that the act of 1844 had
hail an injurious operation, and required amendment.
(Hear, hear.) The second class represented what he would
term the co-operative banks, and consisted of eight persons.
Of these gentlemen the governor and deputy-governor of the

Bi
wan k
MrEtina,lnanodn,na,nl;dihMinr.
thCoettoßan,,,
kwoefrei
tint faanvdougrovfetahoeuant or f.
ogfavwe itht neeisTS.opizivonsiotifajvioiunt
dividuals of great knowledge and experience in the money
ot •if limo pei:di °one..? f t hTehe otherth irfdo ur
clanall
market of Linden. Of these, Mr. Gurnee, the greatest
mom y dealer in the world, Mr. Bates. ot the great house of
Bating, brothers, and Mr, Horsley Palmer, gave the meat
decided opinion in favour of amending the act. The next
class represented the provincial monied interest, and con-
silted of six persons. These were Mr. Prow, representieg
the mining int rest ; Mr. Salt and
Turnerr, M. Monts, f
ro erim
lu Ber,in- ,
mingham ; Mr. Hodgson, r. and Mr.
from Metiehester. The right bon. gentleman proceeded to
read extracts from the evidence of the above itsse the
preponderance of which, he contended, was n favour of
alteretem. In short all, he said, even those most favourable
to ti' act ol 1844, gave testimony in favour of some sort of
a relaxing power. (Hear, hear.) Some, indeed, including
Messrs. Mentz and Salt, went against the currency system
ultogetherethe act of 1819 as well as that of 1841. The Melt
no Chwn
M,
contested of those gentlemen wi.o were a ) well k
by their writing( on fikatnee, and comprhed Mr. Jones
Loyd, Mr. Tooke, and Mr. Taylor. 01 th.eo Mr. Loyd was
opposed teeny change, Mr. Teoke was in favour of some re.
taxation, and Mr. Taylor opposed the ant altogether. So
that of these 24 witnesses, 19 were sealing the act, 1 was
of undecided (vitae's, and 4 were decidedly in ferour of
the act. (Hear, hear.) Afier this sisal saes could the Meese
be ether-waft thou surprised at the conclusion to which the
committee had come 1 (Hem, hear.) 'they add " After
a careful review of the evidence we have coine to the eon.
elusion that the act dots not require alteration." (Hear.
hear.) They came to alit conclusion by the force of
no:limes, but cm tainly nut in areord awe with the
weight of t vidence. Now, the Para" persons were exa-
mire d by the Lords an by the Cunmonst the evi-
dence was in effect the saute, Ina. the Leeds came to
a ter different conclusion. There neve these three
elements to be considered in loeking at the operation
ef tine ac of 1844. The first was the le ter of the
Treasury, which the house hate re cegnis el, and which
-ffirm“l line position that the act rt quired amendment.
The L•tr ns• report, pointed to a similar conclusion, and
the preponderating tenor of the evidence, all of which
was iu favour of eheration. The inquiries of u ttli helots to
which oe had hail had two objects. First, to as'er-
tsiu the causes of c .mmereetl distr. ss ; and secondly, in how
tar those causes had bet n aggravated by the operation at the
act of 1814. some attributed the distress to the reduction of
discounts to 21 per cent by the Bank, and the sudden expan-
RIM and sub.equent collapse which was the con ecetence.
'Po that opinion he did not attach much importance. Many
causes had no douet operated, Lut lie in le himself incompe-
tent to give a p ~hive opinion. But the gre.nt Niel of ingutry
was the opt ration on the act of 1814 t on she Me row, and the
mineral opinion was that it had produced great aggraiation.
His hope was that alter all the events art which they were
hignisant the subject was one which the house would not let
bleep, out that they would ultimately niche such changes as
the country demended in our existing monetary es etem.
Bather in the session, when he hail asked (mem= relaxation,
he was tubl that a committee was sitti• g; but what were
they to be told now 1 Perhaps they would he tobl that they
hail the same wisp g .verinment to letterer° as they bad done
in October, 1817. (Hear, hear.) But his answer was that
the government could not so interfere until great mischief
bee been done, and his Mese was to prevent the evil by
timely interference. (Hear, hear.) At that late period of
the as anion lie c mid not call on these members who had gone
aav sy to come back, he could not ask for an immediate deci
6011, but lie thought he was not asking toe much in entreat-
ing the house to promise that early next *melon they
would take so important a subject into their consideration.
Ile had nut leached upon the questi ea of the country banks,
not loeceuse he undervalued their import-mix, but because
his object was to c intim himstlf to the most important
considerations connected with the act of lb
44.
Mr. DEC ►MONI) observn d that the right hon. gentle-
man bad asked the Louse to promise seriously to madder
this subject next session in order to' arrive at a final settle-
ment. lie hid no hope of a thud settletut nt of a question
which had been now in dispute for Ij/0 ),LIV. UV should
• ite ag.ims the motion.
Mr. N EWDEUATE thought tbe lateness cf the session
Was no reason why the house atiould refuse to do its duty in
promising to review a system under the operation of which
143 first-clue mercantile houses had within three months ent
Ist autumn eeen compelled to mom ml proem The
weight of evidence before the committee of the House of
Conanum, and the opinion expressed by the committee of
the Lords, int nn conclusive as to tee limit topes d by the act
of 11441 On the Beek of England en the free use of bullion as
the basis of issue being prejudicial to the Iceitimate com-
merce of the country. lie wareed the house as to what
might be the conseque rice if a deficient harvest this year.
He feared that if ouch a inietortune should occur there would
result disaaters to our commerce still greater teen those
which had been experienc.l last year. Ile hoped, there-
fore, that the house wound not separate without
holding out the hope that they would cousider
the q stein as soon as they again met, art that teey would
not wait for the recurrence of distress before they held out to
the commercial interest the hand of assistance and sueport.
When he looked at the falling off in our exports (the im-
ports nut hoeing decreased) during the last two yeatts, and
the MT:reiation in their value, which was equal to 2G per
cent., and remembered the tendency of our currency lows,
with the prospect of a failing harvest and the consequent im-
pnt of large quantities of corn to Le paid for in gold, he
would a- k whether the prospects of the ensuing autumn
did nut justify the house iii coming to the revolution proposed
by his right hon. friend ?
An lion. Memisett here moved that the house be counted,
but there being 4tl meenb.n present,
Mr. N WDEG ATE proceeded. lie was not desirous of
oecups leg the time of the Louse, and rather than risk an
abrupt termination to the debate, he wuuld take the hint
which had, just been given iu the attempt to count out the
house, and sit down.
The S.HANCkILLOR of the EXCHEQUER could fine
no ground in the reference which the hon. gentleman had
mada to thin ire-torts and exports in favour of this motion.
He admitted the importance of the question, and that it was
one which might rom rly be brought forward next 'mem,
as early as the right hon. gentleman (Mr. llerries) thought
tit : but to minnow a resolution such as that proposed would
be an extra edihary and a bootless proceeding. lie should
not, therefore, meet the motion with a direct neg.'.
tire, but move the previous questions upon it, as ex-
pressive of the view he took, which was that while ad-
mitting the importance of the subject, be deprecated
a course so inconvenient to that of pledging the house in one
session _s to what it would do in the next, the circumstances
of which they could not foresee. As to the charge thet he
had appointed on the committee a great majority of members
pledged to his own views, or rather to the act of 1814, he
must remind the right hon. gentleman that almost all the
decisi Its of the committee were come to by a majority of
two only. This did not show that there was any overwhelm-
ing majority one way or the other. The right hon. gentle-
man had complained that the committee had not taken the
same view as the majority of the witnesses. But it was a
mist extraordinary position to take—when a committee was
appointed to inquire iota rini' report upon any given subject,
test they eh re not to s xercise their own discretion, that
they were to form no opinion of their own; but that they
must be guided altogether by the witnesses, without weigh
ing or considering the relative value art their evidence. If
the committee were not permitted to come to a conclusion
for themselves—opposed, it need be, to the majority of the
evidence—it w. uld be useless to appoint a deliberative body
at all: it would be sufficient to have a shorthand writer to
take notes of the examination. Bat though much valuable
evidence had been adduced be was not prepared to -secede to
the accuracy of all that the right bun. gentleman had
quoted. Take the old, rice of the Governor of the 13 inh of
Ireland, which the right bon gentleman itemised to inter was
not worth much, as that gentleman was doubtful as to the
effect of tie- bill of 1841. On referring to that evidence he
found that the witness mpressed an opinion that the
act had been useful in putting a stop to banks
which should never have been pe-ntitted ; and that
it had effected an improvement in the system of banking
generally in Ireland by giving greater stability to the banes
and more confidence to tie public ; though it was true that
with regard to the Bank of Ireland, he thought it would
have been better had it not been eeprived of the privileges it
previously possessed. The evidence of this gentleman, there-
fore, was nut doubtful, but favourable to the act of 1844.
With regard to the causes of the commercial distress of the
previous year, the report of the lords' Committee, as well as
that of the Commons, was, that the-speculation in railwaes
and the consequent withdrawal of large amounts of capital '
from other pursuits, together with the demand for foreign
corn, had been amongst the chief. This was the view
taken by the hon. member for Westbury and him-
self--(hear, hear) ; and Mr. Anderson, of Glasgow,
in his evidence. stated that the boucle which suspended
payment in 1817-48 were in almost every case more or lee
etwaged in railway speculation. Mr. Gurney also stated
most distinctly in his evidence before the Lords' committee
that in his opinion the act of 1844 had nothing to do with
causing the commercial distress of the country, and that
there were ample causes for the failures which occurred in-
dependently of the operation of that act. He (the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer) thought therefore that he was fully
justified in saying that the 143 failures to which the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Newdegate) had alluded were not owing
to the act in question. According to the evidence of Mr.
Gurney, the restrictions imposed by the act did not operate
at all, but those failures took place before that period. (Hear,
hear.) He remembered saying on a previcus occasion that
the absence of precautionary measures on the part of the
Bank of England had, in some degree, contributed to the
result, and this view was fully borne out by the testimony
of the Deputy-Governor of the Busk. Mr. Glyn, in his
evidence stated, that the alarm which had previously existed
had become aggravated about the beginning of October, but
that a great change took place when the government letter
was issued. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had
stated the same thing as a ground of justification for the
course the government took. Mr. Gurney's evidence Ras
not opposed to the principles of the act, but in favour of
some relaxation of its restrictive powers. But he contended
that the committee were justified, not merely in taking evi-
dence, but in weighing the facts adduced in support of the
opinions of the several witnesses, and if they thought
those facts did not warrant the (minium they
were right in reporting in favour of an opposite
conclusion. (Hear.) With regard to the beneficial opera-
tion of the sot of 1844 when exchanges are adverse and there
is a drain of gold all the witnesses agreed. All admitted
that in the event of a foreign drain and a dimitnution in the
quantity of bullion, • reduction of the issues of paper was
to Mr. Loyd, tended to raise prices and
the only legitimate and safe comic The undue issue of
therefore krestriction of paper issues
ppraopmero,taeoespoecrduiniagtion ;
must be beneficial, and in no respect had the act of 1844
been more beneficial than in limiting the issues of country
banks, especially during the last two years, the evils of
which would have been mischievously aggravated had un-
limited issues been permitted. If this was the cue with re-

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