The Express.
London, England, 1851-02-08 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 8, 1851.

..--.... _ -
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. WINDOW TAN.—By Mr. lIOLLOND, fraealliddeMl (mete% in reference tostigly win read, the vote fur grant-
Mr. LUSIIINGTON, from the Westminster nallenn Mee ; ing the supply was ago to, and theeresoluCon reported
eiety; Alderman SIDNEY, from Stafford; Mr. PIGOTT, ito the house.
from Reading; Mr. W. ILSON, from corporation of TIIE PAPAL AGGRESSION.
Clitheroe ; Mr. BASS, from corporation of Derby; Mr. I Lord J. RUSSELL, in moving for leave to bring in a
PLOWDEN, from corporation of Newport, Isle of Wight; ! hill to prevent the assumption of certain ecclesiastical
Mr. MOFFAT, from corporation of Dertmouth—for the , titles in respect of places in the United Kingdom,
I repeal of the Window Tax. said: The house will, I am sure, readily believe the
THEI
COUNSEL TO SPEAKER. anxiety with which I approach the important subject which I
Mr. W. PATTEN moved for a select committee to eon- : have promised to bring unders its consideration. The deep
rider the mode in wbkh the duties heretofore attached to' interest felt in this country by all classes, of persons, the
the office of counsel to the Speaker, with regard to the' numerous petitions which have been presented to the house
private business, shall be performed; and to propose such' praying the house to resist IDeraachluents on the part of a
regulation. respecting pnvate business; generally as they ! foreign sovereign, the addresses which have been presented
may think fit :—Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Vernon Smith, to the crown—all make it matter of deep responsibility to
Mr. Bernal, Sir George Clerk, Mr. Evelyn Denison, Mr. uudertake the task of bringing such a question under the
Henley, Sir John Yank Buller, Sir Robert Ferguson, , notice of the house. Sir, that anxiety is not diminished,
Mr. Hume, Mr. Sotheroa, Mr. Brotherton, Sir John Duck- but increased by the symptoms which appeared the other
lwerth, Mr. Deedes, Mr. Briancon, and Mr. Wilson Patten. I evening of the disposition of a great portion of the house in
Mr. V. SallTil said the recommendation of the corn- reference to the motion which I may have to make. One
mime., over which he had the honour to preside in 184$, ! gentleman (the boo. and learned member for Sheffield) who
wan that on a vacancy oecurrine, the question of the ap- : spoke nu that occasion warned me not to teke a retrograde
',ointment of cuuosd to the Speaker should be reconsidered.l step on this question. (Hear, hear.) Another hon. gentle-
Ile thought it was also decided that in case of the appoint- I man, the member for Buckinghamshire, warned me, on the
mein of a clerk to the house, some gentleman should be I other side, not to introduce anything less than a complete
appointed who would he capable and a Wing to perform the code for regulating all the relations which might occur
duty of counsel tothe Speaker, as well as clerk also. (Hear, between the court of Rome and her Majega este's
ra to subject" in
of
hear.) the United Kingdom. Now, sir, with r the first
After a few words from Mr. I.abonehere, Xr. J. Stuart, these observations that I should not take a retrograde step,
and Mr. Patten, the motion was %Weed to, I will say that the only retrograde step I propose to take
BOARD OF TRADE. ie that natural action it, man,who, feeling a blow aimed at
Mr. DISRAELI said it was his intention to renew his his head, steps beck% el to raise his arm in a posture of
notice of motion to inquire into the constitution of the defence. (Cheers.) With regard to the other observation,
Board of Trade. He had made that motion last y; ar ; and I will not now enter into the conside rations which induce
from what hail since transpired, he felt it imperative on him me to differ from the hon. gentlemen who made it. But,
to again bring it forward. in the course of the' speech I shall have to make, I shall
COMMERCE WITII SPAIN. address those observations to the home which appear to me
In reply to Mr. ANDERSON, as to whether the geeenn ,to belong to the subject, and submit those motives which i
meat of' this ennotry had been able to induce the Spanish I have induced the government nit to pursue that course
government so far to reciproeate the comae reed policy of which the hon. gentleman suggested as the most proper on
this country, as to abeindon the Weber deities in the pores this occasion. In bringing this subject before the house, I beg
of Spain sod her dependencies on goods, when imported and the house to r, collect some of the ter. eminences which have
exported in Bri
tish ship's, than when imported and ex- occurred of a very recent date. In 0.•• course of last year the !
ported in Spanish ships, nomination of an archbishop in Ireland by the Roman see
Lord I'ALMERSTON sail he was sorry to have to was made in au unusual manner. It was generelly under-
state that, up to this present time, be had nut been able to stood, and never contralicted, teat these who usually
elected to the office of archbishop oe Cie part of the Roman
induce the Sponieh Forerun>e it to adapt that policy.
Mr. AN DEItSON then Merged to give notice that, on the catholic' of Ireland sent three name sto tome; but instead
18th rat February he would , all the attention of the house of tiny one of the learnt d ecclesiastic, who were proposed
to the differential duties levied on British Aim; in the ports for the office being chosen, a clergyman who hail leen long
of Spain, and to move that w it
a view to the just preec- resident in Rome, and who was more conversant with the
ti
of British navigation and eornmeree it is expedient that habits and opinions of Rome than the state and eireum-
under the provision of the net 12 it 13 Vie., cup. 211 such ',mums of Ireland, was named by the Pope to mount,' the
additional duties should he heeled
and upon goodie ineported or exported in Spanish ship., did that ecclesiastic arrive than he showed very clearly that
and on the tonnage of such ships as may serve to counter. it was not his intention to follow the usual practice ob-
vail the differential duties ms goods and tonnage levied in served by Archbishop Murray and others, of putting him-
, the poets of Spain and her dem ndences on British ships. self in communication with the eovernment of Ireland
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND.) with respect to matters which should necessarily he trans.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL wished to knew from the right acted between them and the government. (Bear, hear.)
bon. gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, whether It was Presently we find that a synod haul been called at Theirles
the intention of the government to bring in a bill to amend and it was stated that at that synod a question was raised
. the relation. between landlord and tenant in Ireland ; and whether or not an address should be issued to the people of
if so, at what time ? Ireland, and that that question was carried by 13 to 12, the
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said it was the intention of mnjority of one consisting of the very person who had been
minieters to introduce such a bill ; hut as to the partieular eent Over from Rome, and who was entirely unacquainted
period, he could nut state. with the state of Ireland and the habits of the people.
STAMP ACT. (Hear, hear.) The addres: was accordingly issued. If
' Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL rose to ask if it was the inten- that address had been confined to matters relating to the
tie, of the government to hying in a bill to amend the internal discipline of the Roman catholic church--if it
Stamp Art of last session (13 and 14 Vie. e. 97), or so much hail been shown that with regard to internal discipline
of It as confine; the trial of all stamp appeals to her Mane', tie re hail been a variety of practice', in different parts
era tenet of Exchequer at Westminster, instead of allowing of Ireland, and that the synod hail met for the
tsar arising in Ireland to be tried in that country. purpose of regulating these mattero—however unusual,
The CH ANCELL(Ot of the EXCHEQUER begged to however entirely without precedent since the time of the
apologise to the hon. gentleman for not being able to answer revolution such a SVDOLI was, it might be reganied merely
the question then; and ghouls', therefore, tequila of him to as a Male of introducing reforms and amendments in the
renew his question on Monday. ecclesiastical system of the Roman catholic church. But
AGRICI: LTUItAL DISTRESS. a greet portion of that WWII,. was taken up with ten sub-
Mr. DISRAELI said that seeing the hon. member for leen. The one was the danger of the system of education
East Yorkshire (Mr. Cayley) in his plate, he begged to nek in the colleges formed by the Queen in conformity with an
him a question, and hoped to receive a favourable reply. He act of parliament. It was stated that, however good the in-
hud given notice of a motion for 'Tuesday next for consi- tentions of the legislature might have beau, these colleges
di ring the dieterss which prevailed in the agricultural din were established in ignorance of the inflexible nature of
tr:ets, as marked reference bad been made to it in her the Rommel catholic ehnreh, and it was pointed
Majesty's speech. However, the hon. member (Mr. Cayley) nut that they could not he attended without danger
had preceded him with a notice for the sonic day in refer- to the faith and morals of those who attended them.
eon; to the considcmtion of the malt tax. Now, as the Another part if the address was taken up with a deecrip.
motion of which he (Mr. Disraeli) hail given notice em- lion of that portion of the poorer classes of the Irish pea-
braced the whole of the cuff rine endured under the malt sentry who heal been evicted from their holdings, and I
tax. what he wanted to ask was whole r the hon. member moot ray no language Neafl omitted which could excite the
would give way to him and peotpone his motion. ids was feelings of that peasantry aff.till.l theca owners of land who
, induced to ask this question became, be believed it would bed been enforcing the process of law against them on that
tend greatly to the convenience of the house did the hon. ocension. (t'heere.) lam not now going to enter into a
, re utlesnaa acquiesce in his (Mr. Diemelin) proposed. deft nee of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland, nor am I going
, (Laughter.) to (homes the question whether the Irish landlord" acted
Mr. CAYI.EY replied that the experience of last version with discretion 1.1, humanity in the use of their legal right.
;showed him that if he once allowed an interruption of his But I point it out as a moat important subject that on a
ipmeeedinge he might find himself obliged to suffer post- question of education, that on a (mention of the occupancy I
ponement for four or five months. (Laughter.) llowever, of hind, the synod, which rotuisted entirely of Roman eatho-
, it was with difficulty he prevailed upon himself to yield to lie crelesiastice, from which all laymen were excluded—
, the neptent which had just been urged. (Hear, hear.) But (hear, hcur)—thought it proper in this their first meeting to
seeing the truth of the hon. gentleman,. observation., and Mad forth to the Irish people and to tell them what should
;111.0 considering his poeition, he thought he could not do he their duty and melte t. on these two subjects. (Hear,
, otherwise than ask the hon. gentleman if, in the event of hear.) Now, I must ask the hon. and h anted rnemler for
hie own motion failing, he emend then take op the malt Sheffield whether these are matters of entirely spiritual
tax ?(e Hear, bear," and a laugh ) concern—(hear, hear)--whether this house and the govern-
Mr. DISRAELI readily aerepted the concession ; and as meat of this country, can be entirely indifferent, when they
it might condom to the convenience of the home, he would see that an archbishop is thus nanwel, purposely of course,
, now state the nature of his motion—" 'fhat the severe die- instructed and aware of the intentions of Rome, and that
trees which centimes to exist in the United Kingdom the first proceeding which he carried is to Mold forth to
amongst that important class of her Majesty's subject", the odium an act of parliament passed for the purpose of edu-
owner- and oremment of land. which was justly lamented in eating the people of Ireland—for the purpose of giving
the eneeeb of her Majesty, renders it the duty of ministers a better education to the higher and middle classes in Ire-
to introduce without delay ouch measures as may be ethic- land, and to excite a hatred of the owners of land amongst
tual for the removal thereof." (Hear, hear.) n great portion of the population of the country. (Rear,
, SECURITY FOR ADVAZICEss AND INCUMBERED hear.) I think this is an instmee, at all events, to show
ESTAT ES 11 REULNIT). that we have not to deal with lill n•ly spiritual concerns—
Mr. SADLEIR wished to know from the right hon and (cheers)—that that interference which is so well known
learned Attorney-Genend if he intended to introduce, be- in all former hiatory—clerical interference with the tern-
.
' fore Keehn the Securities for Advance's (Ireland) Bill, and pond and civil concerns of the state—ha. been attempted
a hill to amend; the Ineumhered Estate. Act ? lint ne a system, but as a beginning—a hi ginning. no doubt,
The ATTORNEY-OENEILAL replied it was the ham- to be natured by other meaeures, and to tie exert; el ou some
,
. tient of ministers to intneluee a bill for the minion. of future occasion with more potent effect. (Loud cheers.)
, carrying into effect the changes refi reed to in the last There be however, one part of that transaction which
meson, with SOUR' modification; and also some alterations merits particular remark, as it may have excited attention
' deemed necessary in the statute of the incumbered estates, on the part of many, and as I ins nit has excited my eaten-
. FlItE AT THE NEW HOUSE OF PARLIAMENT. tion. n,.. copy which I received of the address of the
Mr. LAWLESS wished to know frog the noble lord the Synod of Thurlce was noted on the little page to be pith-
. member fur Tutnens a le, thee the cause of the late tire in liehed by authority, and purported tube eignedet the and by
. the new house of Parliament has been certainly sneer- "the Archbishop of Armagh, l'rimate of Ireland." (Hear)
tained ; and what precautions, if any, have been taken to I received from the lord Lieutenant of Ireland a commuica-
. prevent the recurrence of ouch a disaster? Why were the lion, stating that his attention had been drawn to the cireum
. water-tanks not available on that occasion, which was the stance, that he had consulted those beet qualified to assist him
camee that eu long an Mt, real occurred before any %tipply of in the construction of the law, and that they informed him
. water was brouhrht to bear on the fire? (laughter.) that though they could apply the law if the Roman catholic
• Lord SEYMOUR said he had meek inquiry as to whe- archbishop had assumed the title; of Archbishop of Armagh
, thee the cause of the fire had been weertained, but was told in any document of which they were in posseemon, yet that
that it heel not. Again that very day he had inquired of the appearance in print of that name would not be evidence
,Mr. Barry, but with no better selectee. It was known, in a court of law, and it was not likely that they would
however, that it originated in a tower where there was obtain from the printer any evidence of the fact that I)r.
stowed away an accumulation of wood and lumber. Cullen himself signed the document. They thought it
With regard to the next question, he begged to observe that probable that he had not signed it, but that he had allowed
every precaution had been taken to prevent disasters in his name to be affixed to it with his consent. (Hear.) On
future, for the wood hail been ninnved. (Inughtere With hearing thow matter., I will now refer to some other occur-
respect to the qutetion why the water-tanks were not avail- mums which took place about the same time, not in this
, able, he begged to state that there were two service's--a country, but on the continent of Europe. One was the cir-
high-water heni -e and a low-water service. (Laughter.) eutnstance which took place in the kingdom of Surdinia.
There were finer tanks of high-water service, but it ap- Until Lately the law iu force in Piedmont was that which
peered that two of them were nearly empty—(laughter)— had formerly been the law in most of the states of Europe,
and the other two were plugged—(muchlaughtcr)—eo that namely, that ecclesiastics could only be judged by the ecele-1
the water was not available. Ile then inquired with re- sisatical tribunals, and that the right of asylum was given to
sped to the lose-water service, and he found that the low- certain churches and places belonging to the church. It
water main, which ought to be charged. was not charged. appears that the Sardinian government and parliament as-
(Laughter.) The main was to be charged either from the sembled at Turin changed the law in this respect, and
reservoir at Orange-street or from the reservoir at Conste made it similar to the law in other parts of Europe—
tution-hill, hut neither of these reeerroir• were available. namely, that creleseuties should he liable to he tried by the
(Laughter.) Ile then spoke to Mr. Barry on the subject, temporal and civil tribunals, and that the right of asylum
who said he thought it necesent7 that more reservoirs and should be taken away. (Hear, hear.) One of the minis-
tanks should be mode—(laughter)—eo as to base a full ten who took part in the bringing in of that law was soon
supply of water for the houses of parliament. (Continued afterwards taken dangerously ill. He was naked, when he
laughter.) required the last rites of his church, whether he repented of '
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. the consent he had given to the new laws, called the Sic-
Sir B. HALL said he wished to put a question to the careli laws. lie made a sort of reply which was not otitis-
. right hon. gentleman, the Secretary of State fur the Home factory to the Archbishop of Turin, and he died without
Department, with respect to the Eceletiastind Courts of this receiving the sueraments of the church, as a person who was
country. In the course of last session he :alluded to the out of ite pale. (Hear, hear.) That was an instance of
appointment whithhad beenmadebythe Archbishop ufCan- the interference of spirit'ual power and censure fur the pur-
terbury to the reversion of a sinecure office in the l'rerogu- pose of controlling, of directing, of terrifying a minister of
tire ('ourt, which was worth 10,0001., and likewise to the the crown, and a member of parliament, for hie conduct as
appointment, by another dignitary of the church, of a child a minister of the crown, and as a number of parliament.
under six years old to a similar office. (Hear. hear.) Now (Hear, hear.) I beg the house to observe all these things,
he wished to know if it was the intention of the government for they are not altogether foreign to us. (Hear, hear.)
to introduce any measure• which should remedy. these They may not be introduced amongst us this year or the
Omen, and the abuses which existed generally en the next ; hut we are told, in the writing to which I have al-
ecclesiastical courts of the country. (Hear, hear.) He luded. that the doctrine.; of the church of Rome are in-
also wished to know if it was the intention of the govern- flexible and unchangeable. (Hear, hear.) They may not
'Dent to introduce any measure for the purpose of dividing think it expedient to introduce such practices into this
populous parishes into ecclesiastical elistnets. country; but they retain in their own hands the power of!
Sir G. GREY said it was the intention of the government applying there maxims and practices, and of applying this
to introduce a bill with regard to the first part of most formidable and awful spiritual power. (Cheers.)
the question. With regard to ecclesiastical courts About the same time—it may be a little after—there ap-
generally the subject was under consideration, and a peered a rescript from Rome in Belgium, with regard to
bill had beengn preparation for a considerable time. With the conduct of the government of Belgium. Now the go-
regard to the bill fur dividing populous parishes, the govern- vertu:tent of Belgium, from the commencement of Belgian
client intended to'introdure one on that subject. independence, had taken a course more favourable to the
Sir R. INGLI3e hoped the eight hon. gentleman did not independence of the Roman catholic body than anycountry in
mean to imply that the Archbishop of Canterbury had Europe I believe have done, because they allowed the Roman
appointed one of his family to the reversion of a sinecure of catholic ecclesiastical body to enjoy all endowmeute of arch-
-10,0001. The appointment was not to a sinecure of 10,000/. bishoprics, bishopric s, and benefices, and at the same time
Sir G. GREI said his answer was not meant to imply an the civil government was without any powers of interfer-
admission of the facts with which the hon. member for nice with the nomination or conduct of the ecelesituitical
Marylebone prefaced his question. The office was not a body. But it had been found that the secular education
sinecure, and there was little probability that the person which the state professed to give had. through certain ex-
appointed to it would ever get into posseselon. pedieuta which the Roman catholic ecclesiastics adopted.
CHOLERA IN JAMAICA. fallen very much into the hands of the bishops et' the
In answer to • question by Mr. GOVLIIC11:4, church of Rome. The Belgian government, contesting in
Mr. HAWES said the government would lay on the table great part of Roman cathoties, being anxious for the
at an early day such information as they posseesed respect- good secular education of the people, haying taken means
in
the fatal and dimatrous ravages of the cholera in nos- to provide for the security of that secular education, their
=lca. With regard to the steps to be taken in consequence conduct was impugned by the document which came from
thereof, his noble friend was now in communication with Rome, and it was generally believed that that docu-
parties interested in the island, and he hoped that some merit was circulated at • particular time that it
useful and practical measures would be introduced for the might have a great influence upon the elections, and
edict of the sufferer.. that through such influence the Belgian Chambers might
TRADE AND NAVIGATION RETURNS. be induced to come to another conclusion. (Hear, hear.)
In reply to Mr. HER However, it wes much regretted, and when the Belgian
Mr. LAI3OUCIIERE ;said that the monthly accounts re- minister was questioned on the subject, he produced a de-
biting to trade and navigation would be laid on the table on !patch, in which he desired that the Belgian minis at
Monday. . Rome should inform the Secretary of State that the Pope
Mr. BERRIES said that he would not proceed with the had been misinformed, that the facts were not such as had
maim of which he had given notice on this subject in the been represented, and that no course would be taken which
pionsat circumstances of the house. was hostile to the church of Rome by the government of
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. Belgium. (Hear, hear.) This provoked a great deal of
h was moved and agreed to, that the house at its rising elution, but a great majority approved of the conduct of th•
adjourn till Monday. government. (Hear, bear.) 'Now these were salts
SUPPLY which immediately preceded what occurred in this coumby.
The house having resolved itself into a committee of sups (Hear, hear.) In this country, at the end of September,
101, Mr. Ritaltat. la the chair, the paragraph ia the royal letters apatolic were bawd Rua Rome, under what was

HOUSE OF LOHOS.—FRIDAY, FED. 7.
Tkc I.OIW CLUNLILLOit took bit seat au the woolcack at
6 o'clock.

- -
AMENDMENT OF THE LAW.
Lord BROUGHAM moved the second muting of the;
hill f.r amending the law of evidimee,
_end et the same
time ststed the mune which he intended to pursue with
v. poi to a bill whit h he then laid on the table for trans-
f. rring the business in Bankruptcy to She County Courts.
The tilde loot entered into the advantages to be derived
from the in .11AlarP, and conelicled by requesting the Lord
nor to take charge of it.
1.0111) CHANCELLOR declined the proffered
Eis.dir, on the ground that he hod not sufficient leisure to
cuter into the intriescies of the bunkruptry laws, which
were in gnat that neither suitors nor judges could compre-

land them.
Lord BUOCCITIAIf assured his noble friend that the bill
was complete in ib minute detail., not a tittle needed
altrratim.. All that it ri crtired was to be palsied. lir sras
sorry. thertfore, to hear that the noble lord would not un-
dertake chary. of it, so well as to hi ar that the honkruptcy
112.* win' not understood rein by the judges. No wonder,
then, that such ti lays arose in the Court of Chancery, for
when the judo-• won• ignorant the result must be injustice. ,
I ord CItAN WORTiI admitted the importance of the
T 0110.1171., but thotaiht the house was not yet in a position
isl none to any del Wilt opinion on it. There could not he
a doubt of tie satisfactory Vindlill7, of the County Courts,
which hail conferred a grt-ct benefit on the country.

'the bill was then reScl • first time.
lIIER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO TAP. ADDRESS.
'I he cif (MINSTER, the Lord Steward of
the Ilmtselte.lel, said he had the honour to inform their lord-
thir. that tier Majesty had hewn pleased very graciously to
rec. ive the add?... of their lordship..' !posse, stud to return
this answer: " I thank you for your loyal anal dutiful ad-
ds, 1 rely with nutfide nee on your assistance in main-
teasels? the rights of my enorn and the itidepenth nee of the
nation, and I shall emilWIT co-operate with you in measures
ealeuluted to improve men renethen our institutions."
TIIF. EARL OF 31INTO ANI) TILE PAPAL BrI.L.
Lord STANLEY said he svi-Mil to 4,11 the attention of
the lied Pricy Seal to a epie.tiou put to him last Melee by
another noble east, and to the ur.-wer then riven by the
noble earl. 11r 14714 r-toed the noble earl to say, distinctly,
that not only was he not in any &erne cognisant of the in-
tention of the Pope of Reines In Y. Irani to this matter, but
that, although he had fn iiitent rommunications both with
the Pope and the Cardinal Seen tar). of State, the subject
was never broteMil between them; that no clemmunicatiim
wan made to him whatever on the subject ; that no intima-
tion was wit.ru that such an intertion was entertained; and
that, in ond of Met. he wa• p she tly nt n loos to under-
stand p from whence it.. rut:tour oriainattd; and ha
contnidirted it, and said he was no! stoar of the intentions
of the See of 'torne. If he (Lord Stanley) had been quite
emetielent with regard to the fart hr would not have post-
palls' offering any observations on the subject to another
day ; hot ho did not foil suflScie ntly lainfolent to make any
observations *WM it. 1110 t‘totol the noble earl to say
that he wan ot a kng to imagine what could possibly have
given rue to such a belief. But the noble earl would roc-
gist him for saying when he sp:se of this a% being a report
and a rumour, that it was not in rumour, hat that it WWI a
statement made openly, and in an authoritative manner, by
a person in a situation and possessing the means of the
full, st infonnatioss. Now be aas nacre that this had no-
thing to do with the vi ity .4 tht palate who bad been
chanted with the. superintende nee of the morality mod reli-
gion of the Roman ratio/ie.; but, on the one hand, white
ins thouubt of the noble earl, as he vas hound to do, not
only .no at count of the not& earl's pe-rsonal eharaeter, bat
al.° on amount ..f his quaking, with all that weight and
solemnity whirl, settathed In the declaration of a peer in his
place in parliament—• declamtien which was univenelly
gisi,ris,t t.. he of the same sanctity anal solemnity at, state-
m. :nude on oath ; on the other hand, it was an extra-
taalinary fart that a declaration was mail., by Cardinal
Wiseman, made in his own 111011 i., and in direct prr!
positioe to the stab annul made by the noble earl. He!
repeated that he gave implicit eredence to the noble earl.
• But that was not all. (Rear, hear.) Ile held in'
his hand " An appeal,- as it was cancel. "to the re noon
opal spas' feeling of the English people entthe aulnert i 4 the
citholse Isierarthy, by t'ordinal Wt. man." In that appeal
he steles'. " I have 131?..itily 111114111:1 to lord Mint.. Mang

shown the twirl tor the Itit4areby, printed ohout two yea.
ago. 'floe timunistauce may hive I•eaped his memory, or
he Inlay not at the time hate attended to it. ha. ing snore
hootortant matters in hi. mind. But as to the fart that his
attention was called to it, and that be made no reply, I can
have Ito. &wild." This sto.tentent was made by Cardinal
Wiwinall at the of RCM, but the passage was contented
its a It they * Atom from Vienna (41 3nl of Noventher,
awl whirls (*ordinal Witentrin ar. dto e 44'410...50d
to the noble lord at the head of the goternment, and • near
nostnetoom at the noble earl. la that letter Cardinal Whe-
lan) our.. I take the liberty of stating that the =mum
now promulgated wa • tust only ptepared, hut printed,
thnl• ago, and a copy of it was shown to lewd Idiom
It) du fries. oa uveguittak of an audience given to his lord-1
ship by hos twain..." sow, the tint !that he wished to 0.4 '
was • this statement was made ,less :y afi eying the charac-
ter of her Majesty's goys nument, stn.! deeply of sting tho
Moor of an Individual unsold. r 01 that goverinnent.
The •tato ment Was made, not as a rumour, not as
an aUsgatioss, but as a fact within the knowledge of the
writ. r, that the measure had hrs' do termined on, helm
Knott!. and n cups of it shown to 'sad )(into. Now, he
wishtd to koala whether, in nous( gnome.. of that quasi
soffit toil contatunicat,on on tin part of Canlittal Wiseman,
us,!. step was taken 6, the noble tool at the head of the
go to ascertain from his contrail.• whether that
statement was normal as made by the cardinal, and whether
if that a munieation was malty, any steps were triton by
the noble lord at the head of the government to thy:thaw '
the (*retinal of that fact, and to contradict the statement
punk ?
The Earl of SIINTO. who spoke ist so low a tone as to
Ile almost inoselitge, we understood cos say that. with re-
gard to the stay, totem which appeared to hare been made
by Cardinal Wiwnlan. Lord Jobli I:W.4111111a ma Otreasion
to write to him for interntatioll as to the aei•unicy of that
statement, Is eatsW W ae.al as he (Lord Mint.) saw it he
tolltMonit at. dto him that no such iliftormation haul ever
Iw ..n given to him. He believed, indeed he was pretty
sure. that a letter which was after.; ants published in this
new quiets, addressed by Lord John Russell. did state dis-
tinctly that be toed %moo) W. 14 neither a party to nor
cognisant such proceedings. If Ise had aware of the
noble lord's intention.' putting ;sus question' as to the steps
taken by Lunt Jolla Russell he should have been able to
give all aliz•acr, which of course it was not in his power to
it., now. Ile wished to put their lordship., in powieseion of
lel. dryer knowledge he had in sounezion wills this subject.
IL might oboe that, before he went to Italy, a report had'
certainly reached him. in 4.0121111011 with most of their Wed-
eln'', that certain iistenti tttt at that time of eottferring
nn archipiscopal dignity in this country , and such a report
had certainly come to his hearing before hr reached Rome ;
hut during his residents. in Iturne he hail rennin to suppose
that that intention had bent abandons 11. As to appointing
bishops in this country, he could milt repeat that not one
word had ever beta communicates! to (hint ut Rome of such
an intention. (Hear, hem.) Ile hail loan) it said that on
the tweed tttt of same contenation, probably on other busi-
ness, the Pope pointed out a roll of paw rs, and said,
•. Throw eoneelll you," and that he (lawn Minto) appeared
to take no notice of them. and made nu answer. Ile had
no recollection of such a timuustance. It was very possi-
ble that in the mom of discussion on matters of more
interest to him the Pope might hate said, "These concern
you," and that the observation poes without notice ; but,
ass he said before, he had no knowledge. no recollection
whatever, of suet a thing having occurred, and, so far as
anything being understood as even pointing to the subject.
colas twine acquainted w ith the nature of tt, uot one word
transpired.
Lord STANLEY mid the tint part of the statement of
the noble earl was perfectly satisfactory.. But what watt
more extraordinary than that the noble earl in the part of
the government should earning on a confidential com-
munication with the l'opc, ant( giving him, he dared say.
paid advice with regard to the management of his affairs
unit his country, and the Pope, in return, say "here it a
matter that touches your country." the noble earl should'
have been so wrappad up in the matters that courenied the
l'ope that he had not time to attend to what concerned his own
country.
The Earl of MINTO said this was not an explanation
given by him, but was what he understood to i.e au expla-
nation given by somebody else of something that happened.
He could only say that he had no knowledge aud no treol-
lection of 'nothing of the sort; and he would "al, further—
the noble lord said if in the discussion of any oilier subject
the remark was made to him. " these papers concern you,"
he should have asked, what wart it that onwerucd
Their lordship' then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FamAy, FEB 7.

Ths Ser.alts took the chair shortly before 4 o'clock.
TUE ADDRESS.—HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER.
Mr. LASCELLF.S appeared at the bar of the house, and
announced that her Majesty had condescended the following
gracious reply to the address voted her by that house : I
hart received with much satisfaction your loyal and dutiful
address. Your expression of attachment to my throne and
Person is very gratifying to me ; and you may be umured of
my determination to maintain the independence and uphold
the wastitutional liberties of my people." (Cries of
" Hear, bear.-)

PETITIONS PRESENTED.
PAPAL A001120110:4.—bV Sir R. H. INGLIS (screral),
fen districts in Essex ; Mr. FRI.:WEN, from Sussex ;
Alderman HUMPHERY, from Southwark ; MeMOODY,
from Archdeacons". of Taunton, and other places ; Sir W.
VERNER, from Armagh; Mr. PLUMPTRE, from
LlTin Kent, Northamptonshire, and Surrey ; Mr.
ITiDY, from Derby; Mr. NAPIER, from Dublin;
C 44. SIBTHORP, from Lineobs ; 'Mr. MOODY, from
Kent; Mr. MILES, from Midsummer Norton; the Mar-
quis of GRANBY, from Stamford; Sir B. HALL, from
various metropolitan districts, bearing 40,500 signatures--
Sir Ales, HOOD, from three parishes in Somerset ; Sir R.
G. BOOTH, from places in Sligo ; Mr. G. A. HAMIL-
TON, from places in Antrim, Kilkenny, and Tipperary;
Mr. BANKES, from places and baptist congregations in
Dorset; Sir W. VERNER, from 1,800 protestant in-
habitants of the city of Armagh ; Mr. EVELYN, front
places in Surrey ; Mr. COCKS, from Reigate—against papal
adT=t.Dres.—By Mr. HUTCHINS, from Lyotington,
fee repel of the eacia-dati ea paper.

called the Fisherman's seal, altering the ecclesiasti-
cal arrangements which hitherto prevailed in this
country—altering it from the arrangement of vicars
' apostolic, who were generally bishops in partitm,,
and proposing to establish an archbishop and twelve
bishops amongst whom the country was to be divided.
' (Hear, hear.) Sir, I shall hereafter state the view I
have taken of that document. What I wish to state now,
is that that change was made entirely without the cowent,
I may say without the consent or knowledge of the govera-
. meat of this country. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member
for Sheffield referred the other day to a speech of mine,
and he may possibly have found that in August 1818 in the
' course of cliseussiqm I said in answer to an observation or
' question of the hon. member for Oxford, that I did not
know if the Pope intended to create an archbi4mprie or
bishoprics in the country, and that I had not
i given my consent to any such division, and that
' I should not give my consent to the creation of
any such division. (Hear, hear.) I had indeed been told
some time before, by a private individual of the Roman
! catholic persuasion, that he believed some such project was
! on foot; and he asked me if I should approve of it, awl I
. .

replied that I should not. (Hear, hear,) I heard nothing
more on the subject, and I certainly concluded that the
government of Rome being a friendly government, having
no hostility with this country, would never think it possible
to create an archbishopric and bishoprics in this country, to
divide the country into dioceses, without communicating
at least their project. (Hear, bear.) I could not believe
that it would be attempted to insult the Queen. (Loud
cheers.) I may have la.-en like the ignorant Italian shep-
perd:
trbeat, pram dicunt Itomem. Melibee, potash
StuAtis ego bale novo' siruilem.
(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) I may have thought un-
wittingly and imprudently, that the see of Rome would
observe such relation,, such discretion, such euurtLsy in
their conduct towards this state of England, as all other

states widish were friendly observed towards each min r, or
as she herself observed towards every otht r state. (Choi es.)
I know it has been said in a letter of Dr. Wiseman, I

think it has, if not been directly said, at least insinuated,
that Lord Miato when at ltonte ga‘c some kind of sanction

or consent to this proceeding. 'Lord Minto has given a
positive denial to that stat.mient—(hear, hear)— and, as I
heard the story, I understand that the utmost that is pre-
tended is that at an interview with which Lord Mioto was
honoured by the Pope, the Pope observed, " there is some-
thing them," pointing to a paper on the table. " which
concerns ou.'• and that Lord Stint() did not look at the
paper and did not make any observation on the subject.
(Laughter.) Lord Miuto did not recollect the circumstance,
and he may well have forgotten it if it took place. (Hear,
hear) Bat even if it took place as related, it L. a most
astonishing inference to say that he consented because there
happened to be a paper on the table which had never been
read by him. (Bear, hear.) Having stated this with re-
gard to the measures which have been taken, it is expe-
dient, before I proceed further, to state what has been the
conduct of the different powers of Europe and what has
been the conduct of our own country with regard to matters
of this kind that have been propeacA to be imposed on them
by the papal see. And, let me first say, it is of the nature
of all ecclesiastical bodies to attempt to trench on the tem-
poral power (loud cheers), and that I have myself resisted
with regard to the pouts stants of this country, and with re
gard to the church of England itself, matters and proposals
which, I think, tended to Five an undue power to ecclesias-
tics over the temporal subjects of the state. (Cheers.) But
if this is true of one ecclesiastical body, it is more especially
trueof the church of Rome. (" lieur, hear," from Mr.
- •

Roebuck.) I think this for two principal reasons amongst
others. The one is, that the avowed infallibility of the
church of Rome with regard to matters of spiritual doctrine
give her an influence and power over the minds of
those who belong to that communion greater than
is praaesseal by auv other church. (Hear, hear.)
But, in the next place, Rome has had her periods of power;
she asserted her power in the middle ages, often contesting,
perhaps, in favour of eivilisutiou or of learning, and at cer-
tain periods she was able I,y her ambition to obtain a place
over kings and states which made them entirely tiuhicet to
her authority. Sir, when this power was asserted in the
fullest and most arrogant manner by Boldface the Sth,
Vatted has recorded in that part of his work which relates
ba this subject, that pontiff said to Philip the Fair of France,
"It is fit you should know that you ore subject to us in
temporal as well as spiritual things." Now, sir, the coun-
try which has had must to contest this ',elver, lasing a Ito-
man catholic country, which I should say has most success-
fully contested it, but at the some time amidst repeated
dangers, is that very country of France. I have lately had
oecisaion to read a most able treatise upon what are
called "Gallivan Liberties," the liberties of the Gal.
lican Church, but which, as the author most
justly observes, are more properly the liberties of the
tiallican state in respect to the church. I moan a work of
M. Dupin. M. Dupin is at this time the Prosiident of the
Legislative Assembly of France. Long before he held that
post, long before he held any public post, hr was a man dis-
tinguished for his great logical powers, for his great legal
learning, for his authority upon all matters to which his
attention had been Own or ill`, studies dire eted. Now, sir,
in the beginning of this work upon the liberties of the
Gallivan church, M. Dupin makes some observations which
are, I think, well worthy of attention. (Inc of these ob-
servations is, " that although Rome has for the present re-
laxed many of her pretensions, she never entirely loses sight
of them; that she is a power which has fonrotten nothing,
and has learnt much ; that she is a power which has neither
infancy nor widowhood, and therefore can struggle with
temporal states at all trims with means of which those states
are not possessed ; that therefore it requires the utmost vi-
gilance, the utmost attention, to guard against the ag-
gressions of the church of Rome, and to preserve the tem-
poral liberties of a country with which she is connected.
(Hear, hear.) Sir, he moles another observation which I
think may perhaps he of some use to the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck). Ile says, that 'Milo-
sorhy, which is in this instance, he thinks, too presumptu-
ous, is of opinion that there is no need of particular lowa,
or of the study ofjurisprudenee, on this subject—that her own
arms arc quite sufficient to encounter any dangers to which
the country may be for a moment exposed; but it is quite evi-
di nt, M. lhipin proceeds to say, that philosophers deceive
themselves on this subect, fur, although their arguments are
irresistible to philosophers, yet the great moss of men, whe-
ther from religious conviction, whether from habit, or
whether from regard for the opinions of the world, are go-
semed by religious belief, and do not attend to the opinions
and arguments of the pliilosophera. (Hear, bear.) Sir,
after this introduction, M. Dupin states, in a very small book,
but one which contains on immense quantity of learning on
this subject, what the assertions of the liberties of France have
been upon this subject. Now, some of these—and it is so
with regard to other states which I shall mention—some of
these relate entirely to appointments to bishoprics and other
ecclesiastical offices which were endowed, or the holders of
which received salaries and emoluments from the state. It
may be a question whether these would apply to the ease
which we now have, or to any case which we may have, be-
fore us in connection with this subject; but I observe that
Mr. Bowyer dismisses all the precedents of this kind, and
all those which refer to thins before the Reformation, as
not applicable to the present case. Still there are maxims
established in law, established by the dicta of the greatest
judges, of Frauce, which are well worthy of our attention.
One of these is, that no command of the Pope
can he received in Franco without the ',Meet, or, in
fact, without the direction of the sovereign. Now,
this bill applies not only to questions about appoint-
ment to ecclesiastical benefices and bishoprics, but
it applies generally to anything that may be ordered by the
see of Rome. There is another maxim among those dicta
which is likewise of great importance. In order to preserve
the entire temporal independence of the Kings of France, it
was laid clown that if any person should introduce any bull
or instrument inflicting spiritual excommunication or cen-
sure upon any person in the service of the King of France,
for things dune in the service of the King of France, all his
goods and property should be forfeited to the crown. Sir,
that was a very important and a very strong power, but one
which was rendered necessary by the assumptions of Rome
in France ; for it is argued, and most justly argued, by
M. Duple, that if the King had had all his ministers and
officers struck by excommunication he would have been
totally powerless, and his orders would have been
of no effect whatsoever. There, then, was one of the secu-
rities provided. It was likewise provided that with respect
to any spiritual matters the directions and decrees of the
Pope should nut apply unless coufirmed by a general coun-
cil. Such were the general maxims which formed part of
the laws of France du the monarchy. The powers
were exercised by things of France under the mos
narchy—exerciwd by, Louis IX., a saint of the Iloraan
catholic church, by Louis XI., by Henry IV., and by Louis
XlV.—were exercised aa fully as they have been at any
subsequent time. But there is a circumstance which is, I
think, worthy of mention, because it answers the argument
that, with respect to what has once been done, there can be
no change or alteration. In the concordat made by Napo-
leen, at the commencement of the present century, the cir-
cumscription of dioceses was entirely altered by the autho-
rity of the civil government, in conjunction with the
Pope, and those who under former settlements were
legally and lawfully, according to the doctrines of
Rome, the archbishops and bishops of the Roman catholic
church in France, were entirely deprived of the rights
which they porksowed. Now do not tell me after this that
the papal power can never retrace its steps ; that
what is done be Rome must remain for ever unal-
tered, and that *the circumstances of the times, and the
resistance which may be made by a nation to the solemn in-
struments of the Pope, arc not to be taken into considera-
tion, because Rome will not listen, and will not change.
(Hear, hear.) I proceed next, sir, to what was—l am sorry
to say was—the law of Austria. (Hear, hear.) Austria,
too, was a great Roman catholic power, but the laws which
she made were of the most stringent description, with re-
spect to the introduction of papal bulls, with respect to
papal appointments, with respect to papal censures. She
declared that the civil power was supreme and sovereign
that nothing whatever should be admitted, without it had
the placet of the Emperor—that no appointment should be
good which had not that confirmation; that no intercourse
Should take place between the bishops of the empire and
the Pope without the knowledge and sanction of the
civil power ; and that every document by which
it was proposed to indict spiritual censures or
excommunication should be submitted to a mixed
body of clergy and laity, and should not be valid without
their concurrence. Sir, this shows, then, with regard to
another great Roman catholic power, what was 31 jealousy
and what was the result of experience with regard to the en-
croachments which the church of Rome had attempted to
make upon the temporal power of Austria. (Hears Ilea;2
Sir, havincstated the practice of these two great cannel
peweeofl4‘rope, I will not go far iota say Of dm others ;