The Express.
London, England, 1853-07-16 00:00:00

II

all probability have been acquitted before any jury. He i The hon. member moved an amendmi eit to i his effect:
felt certain that they would bo acquitted by the fur and im- 1 but the discussion turned for some time on other points, and
partial juries whom he was in the habit of addressing. A the cenfusion which resulted was the °cease oof Tout
more unfounded statement than that made by the noble i laughter.
lord in reference to the conduct of the Roman catholic 1 Mr. HUME recalled attention to his amen :Ms sit ; and,
clergy of Ireland he had never heard—(hear, hear)—made being put, it was understood that it was rejectie
hesupposed for the burpose of reconciling the hon. gentle- Mr. BRIGHT put it to the house whether it was not
man opposite to him to the course which the government worth while, here, where there could be L.. pernicious
detetmined to take. The noble lord thought it proper effects, to test the alleged advantage of deceit Lions over
to make a charge—a charge which it was impossible oaths ? The noble lord (J. Russell) had RR. t. i "acres that
for him to substantiate—egad:lst the whole body of evening of his intention to propose the &bailee ••n of par-
the Roman catholic clergy or Learnt:.
Did not the noble lord know that notwithstanding all that gnestion of the desirableness of the change ii. this cleave
ar, e lle:e.) i`""^"'" ...7.t11: :II 5t s."!!! f'?sfa; and there ot.zlit to bo
." ja
had been said of the interference of the Roman catholic proposed by Mr. Hume. Generally, as they diminished
clergy, but one county election and one borough election oaths, they raised the standard of truth ; and lie WWI
had been set aside. (Hear.) And with regard to the deci- upon the leaders of that house to support the newstinient.-
rion in the ease ef Sligo, he must say that a more doubtful The committee divided—
decision was never presented to the house—(hear, hear)— For the amendment ll9
and if it were referred to another committee it was most Against it
probable that their decision would be different from that of Mr. J. B. SMITH then proposed as an aineielment the
the former one. He was quits surprised at the course pur- insertion of the words " oath or declaration."
sued by the hon. member for Montrose, who seemed to Sir C. WOOD was understood to consent to the adoption
think that the ballot was the only remedy that the people of these words.
of Ireland asked for. But he could tell the hon. gentleman Mr. BRIGHT said the only effect of this onuld be to
that as long as the grievance of the established church in its allow Quakers, Separatists, and eome other geese bodies to
present form continued—a grievance which was a scandal take the declaration instead of the oath. It would not
and disgrace to the protestant people of this realm, and the give a general relief. After tl.e division jest token, which
removal of which was essential to the tranquillity of Ire- resulted only in a majority of 30, obtained by oie members
land—the people of that country would not be satisfied. of the government voting with members oppueii,, he hoped
(Hear, hear.) No doubt the ballot would do good, because this point would be conceded.
it would protect the voter from the scandalous interference Mr. E. BALL said he hail votes with Mr Bright, not
of the landlord, but it would not restore tranquillity to bar title he objected to webs altogether, but bei .use he con.
Ireland as long as the other great grievance re- entered that the more seldom they were ad.i.i ...tried the
moaned unredressed„ The noble lord eccusel the more solemn they would be.
Roman catholic clergy as a body with interfer- Mr. HEYWOItTII observed that some memhi re even of
ing at elections. There were 27 bishops in Ireland the Church of England objected to oaths, ne the ground
How many of them ever took part in politics I Why not that they thought tee text, " swear Lot at all," ought to be
wore than four or five, and not so many now. The literally construed, and they would not be r, Ii red by the
Roman catholic clergy of Ireland were not die- existing law.
posed to take part to political agitation; let but Lord STANLEY asked if the bill would al'. 4 Quakers,
the grievances that they felt be removed and they Moravianseand separatists to take the declarao. i. ?
would take no part whatever in political agitation. Sir C. WOOD said that the oath he prof., d was the
He (Mr. Serjeant Shee) stood two contested elections, one existing octh, leaving out merely some now 10,1.1111 y irrele-
for Marylebone and one for Kilkenny, and he could say Tent matteorelating to the commercial 'filet, of the etwa-
that the conduct of the people of Kilkenny was at least as pony. WI-clover any person was relieved from :irking oaths
peaceable and tranquil as that of the people of Maryle- by the present law, they would be relieved under the bill;
bone.
_Ulcer, hear.) and if the legislature should think fit to eat, e• that relief
Dlr. MALINS agreed with the noble lord that it would still further, it would be extended also to East India dl-
be better to draw the curtain of oblivion over what bad rectors; but ie did think, that if ever oath, were to be
passed, and not carry on the prosecution of these parties at taken at ail, they ought in the present rose.
this late period. After the emphatic disapprobation of the After a few words in reply from Mr. burro,
conduct of the Roman catholic clergy prunouuced by the The committee divided—
noble lord, he was disposed to believe that the government For the insertion of the words B5
would in future repress any similar proceedings on the Ageinet it l2l-59
pr.rt of that body. (Hear, hear.) He should be quite The words were teerefore not inserted, and the clause
prepared to abide by the test referred to by the learned ser- we.- then agro d to.
:keno and would, with full confidence is the result, leave On clause 13, which provides that bye-lows 4,41 be made
the decision of tho ease in the hands of such juries as his against canva.sing fur the directorship,
learned friend was in the habit of addressing its this Mr. BRIGHT suggested that the Chairmai. should now
country. Ile was not a supporter of the ballot, but he report progress. This clause was so absurd hot, if they
thought either that the elective franchise should be taken went into it, they must strike it out.
away from the people of Ireland, who showed their incapa- Sir C. WOOD remarked that too heuis had been
city to exercise it withindependence,or that the ballot should wasted on irrelevant discussion. He hoped tit, y should be
be given to them as a protection from the clerical influence allowed to go on.
and intimidation to which they were subjected. (Loud Mr. HUME thought it would be better to have • statue
cries of " Hear, hear," from the Irish liberal members.) tory declaration against canvassing than a bye-11w.
Lord J. RUSSELL rose for the purpose of asking the Mr. BRIGHT said the clause would reit prevent can-
house whether it was desirable that this discussion should vassing. if a candidate could not canvas-, i e could get
be any longer upon the formal motion of the adjournment some one to canvass for him.
of the house till Monday. (Hear, hear.) The question Sir J. W. lIOGG observed that if they precluded pro-
'had been brought forward and answered, the two learned prietoi e from canvassing they precluded the candidate,
gentlemen had expressed their views upon it, and as it was because no one could be a candidate who W. 1.• not a prc-
not possible to come to any other result than the agreeing to Prietae• In point ef fact, though the clauso did not appear
the motion for tho adjournment of the house till Monday, to be effectual, it did all that could be din e, and he
he eructed that they might be allowed to turn their atten- thought if they got the proprietors to pass a bye law to put
lion to the more practical business of legislating for the an end to what all admitted to be an evil, that and public
people of India. (Hear, hear.) opinion together koild prevent the binding of yetis fur
Mr. MILES said ho thought ke had discharged Isis duty two or three vacancies which now occurred. L would be
by pursuing the course that he had done. (Hear, hear.) much better that the candidates should send iii their testi-
Mr. LUCAS hoped the noble lord the member for menials to the proprietors and that the pro; r.eturs should
Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) would not follow the advice of then go the election without canvass.
the hon. sod learned member for Wallingford (Mr.Malins). Lord STANLEY quite agreed with the hon. baronet
If the Roman catholic clergy were ever guilty of violating that public opinion might do a great deal, but public opi-
nion would do as much without this eletoe a, with it.
went
the law or of inciting the people to *kirk it—if they ever
What reason was there why parliament sheuld not take
beyond the fair and legitimate proceedings of a con-
tested election, he would not be the man to stand up and the matter directly into its own hands and erohibit what
defend them, or to ask that they might be saved from the was proposed to be prohibited by a bye law?
penalties of the law. (Hear, hear.) When, however, the Mr. 01. MILNES thought this a must in, ff, etual clause.
hon. and learned gentleman told [them that after certain If a man sat at table and said to another, " I sheuld be glad
if you would vote for my friend," he would to tined uder
candidates had come forward, at an election, the :priests
the proposed bve-law 1001. This appeared tii him and
is-
were not to bo at liberty to tell Roman catholic that those
turbance of all [h¢ ordinary rules of society, and he should
of their persuasion who voted for them would vote against vote against the clause as impracticable.
their own religion ; he told him, in reply, that it was per-
Mr. BRIGHT said he was in favour of canvassing, and
featly monstrous and preposterous to suppose that such ap- was against the clause on that account. A man might send
peals would not continue to be made. (Hear, hear.) If
a cart load of testimonials, but lie would rather sec his face
any law were enacted to prevent them it would be a dead
and the shape of his head. (Laughter.) Ile had known
letter, and the government would soon find that they had
the most incompetent men produce unexceptionable testi-
entered on an insane course. He was told—he was not in menials.
the house at thisoinie,—that the noble lord had remarked
that the conduct of the priests at the last election was die- The clause was then struck out.
creditable. Ile did not know whether or not the noble On clause 11, which requires that 20 proprietors shall
lord added anything with regard to the conduct of the land- form a quorum, and in which it was proposed to insert
an amendment that it should not apply to mere formal
lords. (Hear, bear.) The conduct of the priests was
business,
purely defensive; it was caused by the oppressive proceed-
ings of landlords. (Hear, hear.) What happened at the Sir C. WOOD said there was certain formal business
which was required to he done by law, and this clause
last election for the county of Sligo ? He did
not know whether the noble lord knew anything about the need not conk into, operation then, but when they came
to serious business it was necessary to have a quorum
spatter, but it was said, in relation to the noble lord's own
estate in that county, that it was thought to be a great present.
Mr. BRIGHT said this was a most curious clause. The
point in favour of one of the candidates at the last election
object of it was to snuff out the Court of Proprietor', when
for the county of Sligo, that the noble lord's influence was
at least not opposed to him. A placard was distributed in any serious business was don. Whey any buskin was
which it was stated that letters had been received from brought on which the Court of Directors did not like, the
the noble lord, declaring that all the tenants on his estate hon. member for Hannon would only have to give a hint
were free to vote as they pleased. That placard had not to his friends to go into the next room, and the house was
been on the walls four-and-twenty hours, when it was fol- up. He did not wish to set up the Court of Proprietors;
they were as near defunct as possibl
ie, and this clause would
as
lowed by another, signed, he was informed, by the agent kill them outright. Mr. Melvin, n his ee ioence, recom-
of the noble lord, declaring that the information was false, mended that there should be a quorum, because at present,
that no such letters had been received, and that the infer:.
when there might be only four or five proprietors present,
ence drawn from the statement was unfounded. (Rear, speeches were made which got into the nee spapers.
bear.) He had no wish to bring any charge against the
noble lord personally,but he mustsay that the course pursued Sir J. W. HOGG said the directors were obliged by law
to lay certain documentshefore the Quarterly Court of Pro-
by many landlords on that occarion was such that the
Roman catholic clergy would have disgraced their sacred prietors, which were then placed in a room in the India
character, and deserved the contempt of the whole world, House, and all proprietors had access to them. Suppose a
if they had not used their efforts in a peaceful and eonsti- meeting, at which there were only four or five pro-
tutional manner, to teach the people their rights and prietors, some one might get up and say there
duties. (Hear, hear.) was not a quorum, and the directors would then
Lord PALMERSTON said as a case had been mentioned not be able to lay these documents before them.
in which he was personally concerned, he wished to say The hon. gentleman the member for Manchester hail re-
one word in regard to it. The facts were these. lie wrote ferred to the importance of the debates which took place in
to his agent to say, that, so far as his wishes were con. the Court of Proprietors, but he could assure the hon. mem-
corned, he wished any tenant of his who was disposed to her that these discussions, which sometimes extended over
several days, or to an advanced hour of the night, were ex-
attend to them to vote for the two sitting members • but be
ceedingly inconvenient, because they obstructed public
also stated, that his tenants were of course at libertktovote
as they pleased, and that no ill consequence to business, and were generally carries on by only two or
them whatever would ensue if they did not vote three proprietors. The business of a quarterly court ought
not to be stopped by discussions of a useless character, and
as ho wished. Well, four or five days before the
election, a number of his tenants wrote to his agent in the he hoped the precautions which the clause provided against
town of Sligo to say, that if he did not come and carry such obstructions would be agreed to.
them away, and keep them from violence--(laughter)— Mr. HUME objected to the quorum, and contended
the priest and his adherents would fall on them and pre-
e- that it was only right that an occasion should be set apart
vent them from voting according to their wishes ; and life- once a quarter upon which the grievances of India could be
rally about 40 of them had to be maintained in a house in discussed. He had often been present at these meetings,
Sligo to keep them from the violence which they antici and he could bear testimony to their usefulness.
pated from a reverend priest. (Laughter.) Be was in- Sir H. WILLOUGHBY suggested that stringent powers
formed, too, and had no reason to doubt the fact, that when should be given to the chairman of the company to preemie)
a candidate to whom be was favourable was going to the order in these quarterly meetings of the proprietors.
nomination, he was told that there were 2,000 persons The words were then agreed to.
waiting for him at the entrance of Sligo, all armed, and Mr. HUME moved the insertion of the words " kelt-
headed :by a priest, with a doable-barrelled gun in his sive of any directors present," which would have the effect
hand. (Laughter.) of rendering the quorum more easy of attainment.
Mr. BRADY teat persuaded that the Roman catholic Sir J. W. HOGG did not think there was any necessity
laity were far too intelligent to be influenced by the priest- for these words ; while, with regard to the suggestion of the
hood to the extent stated by the noble lord (Lord Palmer- hon. baronet the member for Evesham, he did not think it
sten). He regretted that the noble lord should have was possible to devise any reasonable means by which it
fostered the spirit of bigotry which pervaded this country, could be accomplished.
and thought he would have as much cause to regret the Mr. BOWYER reminded the committee that a vast pro-
expressions he bad used that evening as the noble lord the portion of India proprietors were women and minors, and,
member for the City of London had to regret his celebrated under these circumstances, he submitted that a quorum of
Durham letter. (Laughter.) 26 was too high.
The motion for adjournment was then agreed to. Mr. GEACH concurred in the view taken by the hon.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. member for Montrose upon this subject, and thought the
open Court of Proprietors ought to be continued easy of ac-
The house then went into committee on this bill.
appointed by her
On clause 10, providing that directors "as' a°
that the grievances of India might be freely and
openly discussed.
Majesty should be eligible to seats in parliament, Mr. HUME said he would not press his former amend-
Viscount JOCELYN moved an amendment, giving the meat; but, nevertheless, he felt so strongly upon this
Crowe the power of removing any director, on address from point t
T ofa he.
quorum
should move that the consisted of 10
I either houso of parliament, declaring that his object was, instead
to prevent the directors from being ever actuated by party After a few words from Mr. DANDY SEYMOTR this
spirit. amendment was negatived without a division, and lit was
Sir C. WOOD admitted that it was moat dedrable that agreed that the blank in the clause should be filled up with
the directors should be as independent as
,ible. Taking the figure 20.
the words of the act, with respect to judges, ' guansdiu se
The clause as amended agreed to,
was then and the
bens gesserint," he had endeavoured to use the best English chairman was directed to report progress.
form for the purpose of providing that the directors should The house accordingly resumed, when the chairman
continue in office as long as they. did their duty. The words reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on
which he had adopted were, in fact, borrowed from the Monday.
County Courts Act.
The committee divided: DUBLIN PARLIAMENTARY REGISTRATION
For the amendment
Against it 9O-47 This bill passed through committee.
On our return to the gallery we found EXPENSES OF ELECTIONS BILL.
Mr. BRIGHT moving the rejection of the clause, as un-
constitutionally On the motion for considering the amendments on this
constitutionally increasing the powers of the minister, and bill,
affecting the independence of parliament. These directors Mr. HUME hoped his hon. friend would postpone the
bill till Wednesday, as he (Mr. Hume) had some amend-
would have patronage to the amount of 12,0001. a year, and
meats to propose which could not be properly discussed at
a salary which, it was not too much to assume, would soon
be increased to 1,0001. Their appointment would be for a so late anheur as 1 o'clock.
short time, with eligibility to reappointment; and under Mr. C. BERKELEY said the main object of the bill was
, these circumstances he did not think they would be desk- to do away with the use of flags and banners, and other
labia members of that house, appointed as they would be by absurd paraphernalia of that kind. He would suggest to
the minister of the day, and removable at his pleasure. his hon. friend to defer his clause till the Reform Bill of
be disposedthe noble lord was introduced.
I Bit C. WOOD admitted that this question was of more Sir H. F. DAVIE thought
Importance than any of the details they hadbeen discussing,
t election scene, without doing any harm. lie should there-
that flags only enlivened an
lat the same time he could not quite agree with very rime fore
that had fallen, not only from his hon. friend, but from the to move that the bill be not extended to
Scotland.
of e
1 hon. gentleman who spoke on the previous part the — Mr. FORBES saw no reason why the bill, which was
1 clause. He could notagree in the term as applied to those gen- intended to lessen the expenses of elections, should not apply
wastlemen in the sense in which it usually understood in that
to Scotland as will as England.
house, who would be the mere nominees of the crown. When
they consider the sort of persons who would necessarily Mr. E. DENISON did not think they could proceed with
be appointed, he did not think they could properly be re- I use,
the bill at so late an hour. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentle-
man, in deference to the opinion expressed by the
.o
a.
' seeded as placed in the position of directors merely because
yßaUhaSallobeL
felt
tidat
the
diaidtrandoutettwenontadetra that
that
spirit,
tb,illaawd
they were the supporters of the government. agreed to expunge the word "emblem," but he substitute
for it the word " effigy," which was more uncouth. (Hear.)
conceivedreeent ul erecommended
itsu
aataLoer
jdealJaaa.
house of six members nominated by the crown. At the sues
she
Mr. MULLINGS said that he suggested the word effigy,
same time he thought it was rather extraordinary to find but he would consent to withdraw it.
that those who a week ago were exceedingly jealous of Col. SIBTHORP thought that the bill was a mean,
nwtsitardrsaawblaslasd(Heexaagrserated
having directors elected by the proprieters, and were in dirty, shabby, low, and paltry one. (Laughter) He did
favour of their being chosen by the crows, should desire to not know what the constituency of Cirencester might thick,
lower the position of those chosen by the crown in the but the constituency of Lincoln would not be humbugged
Court of Directors. by this bill, and those who would deny to them the optsor-
After some discussion, tunity of expressing their feelings deserved not to be re-
I The house divided; the numbers were— turned by them. (Laughter.) In rino reritas. (Laugh-
Ayes 139 ter.) He was ashamed to see that such a bill bad the sap-
Noes 79-60 port of conservaties, for it was only fit for those who hail
Clause 12 having been read by the Cuoutatoet, not a shilling in their pocket.. (Laughter.) lie concluded
Mr. HUME submitted that a " declaration" ought to by moving that the bill be further considered that day three
be substituted for an oath. (Hear, hear.) He objected to I months.
the word "swear" in the clause. Mr. ()EACH said he was opposed to this bill on the