The Express.
London, England, 1851-02-15 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 15, 1851.

to submit, in

e with their former promise, any

plan for a general revision of taxation?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
not aware that he had ever made any promise to do so.

(Hear, hear - -
.)
Mr. HUME said he had made a motion on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repeated
that he did not remember having given any promise.
Mr. BAILLIE wished to be informed whether it was
the intention of the government to propose the renewal of
the income taa in its present shape, or with some alter-

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would sug-
gest to the house that as the financial statement was to be
made on Monday it was notdesirable that he should answer
any further questions. (Hear, hear.)
TRANSATLANTIC PACKET STATION.
In reply to a question from Mr. M.Cet.Lasit,
Mr. COWPEIt said that the commission appointed
to make inquiries as to the most desirable transatlantic
packet station would soon he able to make their report.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES.
On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned de-

bate being read,
Mr. FAGAN said the subject had, in his opinion, been
already exhausted,—(hear, hear)—and he would not, there-
fore, trespass at any great length. His constituents were,
however, indignant at the course which the government
had adopted, and would expect him to use his best efforts
Ito displace them from their position. It would be his aim
to follow the example of the hon. member for Carlisle,
and to take a Catholic view of the whole question, premis-
ing that he had read none of the 1.50 pamphlets which had,
he was told, been published in reference to the subject.
Notwithstandiug the opening speech of the noble lord,
tho question still remained, had the catholics given
cause fur the course now adopted towards them? Had
there been any. infringement of the prerogatives of the
sovereign, any Interference with the established church,
and, above all, any insult to the Queen ? (Year, hear.) If
there had, Roman catholic as he was, he could not be our-
prised at the proposal of this measure ; but he maintained
that there had been no infringement, no interference, no
insult. if there had been aa appearance of ostentation,
Cardinal Wiseman was not to blame. The pastoral was
published in the newspaper+ without his cognisance, and he
had no desire that any of his pulpit addresses should be
published ; but the press, in their eagerness to
publish everything relating to the subject, had sent reporters
to St. Georges Cathedral. It had been alleged in the
course of this debate that Roman catholics acknowledged
only a divided allegiance to the crown. lie asserted that
theirs was no more a divided allegiance than was that of
the two thousand clergymen of the church of Eng-
land, with the Bishop of Exeter at their head, who
had denied the spiritual eupremaay of the Queen in all
matters of faith and doctrine. it was objected that in
becoming bishops they had usurped territorial titles, but the
fact was, that in no other way, according to the invariable
usage of the church of Rome, could they have been ilesig-1
nated,not could they pmperlyexerceic their episcopal functions
without territorial divisions. But they were in fart much more
independent of the Pope than had been the 'nears apostolic,
who were merely the delegates of the Pope; the latter
being, in fact, the real bishop in all cases. Neither was
the present a new division of districts. The districts had
been always the same, and the innovation was merely in
the title. Ile complained of the noble lord's letter to the
Bishop of Durham, and its charge of insidious practices.
He supposed the noble lord alluded to the recent secessions
as having been produced by insidious practices and having
led to what was called the aggression. For his (Mr. Fagan's)
part, he attached little value to those conversions. His
belief was, that looking to the temporalities of the church of
England,there was much more danger in the opposite direct-
ion. Ile could understand the ignorance which prevailed in the
mind of a bigoted and excited mob out of doors, but he
had nut expected to find in that house hon. gentlemen pre-
pared to assert that the canons of the Roman catholic
church would sanction a violation of the allegiance due
from the subject to the sovereign, or was incompatible with
the duty of a good citizen. Ile trusted the noble lord would
reconsider this question, and pause before he forced upon a
Roman catholic country a law which must involve the go-
vernment in inexplicable difficulties. (Cheers.)
Mr. F. PEEL entirely concurred in a sentiment which
had been more titan once expressed in the course of this
diseumion, that although the debate had now reached the
third day, it was still somewhat immature—somewhat vague
and discursive in the range of the topics it embraced, and
that it would have been carried on with more advantage if
they hail first waited until they had ascertained in all its
bearings and all its details the measure which had been
propounded to them by the noble lord, and which he had
moved for leave to introduce. The noble lord had
hail, as he anticipated, the ill luck of satisfying neither
side, so far as the lower end of the house was concerned ;
for the hon. gentlemen on the twitches below the gangway
on the ministerial side went far beyond what they cond.
dered to be the rtspiirements and the emergency of the case
—(hear, hear)—while many hon. gentlemen on his (the
opposition) side of the house thought that it did not
come up to that emergency. (Hear, hear.) lie had no
intention to offer any observations on the course taken by
the other side, but hon. gentlemen on that side had, in the
course of their speeches, contrasted the measure of the
noble lord with the speech with which he introduced it,
and with the indignant spirit which had obviously dictated
the noble lord's letter to the Bishop of Durham. Ile must
protest against the question being argued as though it bad
been prejudged by the sense of the country, however en-
lightened that general sense might be, as he conceived it
the duty of parliament was something more than to en-
dorse the sense of the country. It was their duty to con-
sider and judge for themselves on all matters brought before
them, and the question they had now to consider was
whether the provocation which had been given by the
court of Rome justified the interference of parliament,
and that to a greater extent than the government sug-
gested ? Ile would not deny that there had been
provocations. (Hear, hear.) Ile condemned as much as
any man the unchristian, uncharitable, the arrogant, and
haughty tone which pervaded every line of the lute pastoral
address of the cardinal, but at the same time he doubted
whether it justified their interference by legal enactment—
or if it did, whether any measure could be framed of a
more binding and stringent character than that now pro-
posed, without infringing on that which he believed ha
was correct in saying it was the wish of every hon. member
to maintain inviolate—viz., the sanctity of religions liberty
in this country. (Cheers.) At the same time he should be
sorry to be supposed to underrate the importance of the
feeling which had been exhibited by the country in the
numerous public meetings which had been held, but the
real value of that feeling was not as the basis and measure
of legislation, but in the circumstance that there was an
overwhelming majority of the people of the country meeting
together and professing and placing on record the expres-
sion of their hem and unshaken attachment to the protes-
tant religion as by law established. (Hear, hear.) And
that not only as regarded the members of the established
church—for they had seen the great body of protestant
dissenters as well as the great body of the members
of the protestant established church meeting together also,
under the influence, as he believed, of that feeling to
which the hon. member for Manchester had adverted—
that they saw in the proceeding of the court of Rome an
indication of an opinion there entertained that the Roman
catholic religion was making or about to make great and
rapid strides in this country. This was valuable for the
purpose of removing all doubt and perplexity, and assuring
part iament that the people were prepared to stand by the great
principles of the reformation, and that they considered the
cause of pure religion and uncorrupted faith to be indelibly
bound up together with the liberties, the prosperity, and
the happiness of the country. (Cheers.) Now with regard
to the bill of the noble lord—whatever might be its merits,
it certainly could not claim the merit of being a permanent
hand comprehensive settlement of the question. (Hear,
hear.) That was not its merit, nor did it lay claim to it.
(, Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) The Attorney-
General had told the house that the only object of the
measure was to provide • remedy for the specific offence
which had been complained of, and the hon. and learned
gentleman said that in taking that course he thought he was
acting upon a wise and sound maxim of politics. (Hear.)
The course might be a very wise and sound one under the ear-
-1 oaraitances, but at the same time it could not he denied
that it would be very desirable if the position of
the Roman catholic clergy in this country in relation
to the government and the people generally could be placed
on such a footing as would render it impossible that there
should be a recurrence of that agitation and ferment to
which the country had been recently subjected. (Hear.)
The Roman catholics might recognise the Pope as the head
tithe church, and the Pope might exercise spiritual autho-
rity and supremacy as far as the Roman catholics were
concerned. (Hear, hear.) He was aware that there were
some persons who considered that the admission of an
opinion of that kind was not consistent with the oath of
supremacy taken by protestant members of parliament.
He (Mr. Peel) felt nevertheless able to subscribe to that oath
with a clear conscience and, having taken, to maintain it.
(Cheers.) He did nut take refuge in the construction some-
times put on the form of words—to the effect that they
implied no more than a declaration that the Pope of Rome
had no legal jurisdiction—no jurisdiction that could be en-
forced in the courts of law. What he understood by the
oath was, that it compelled those who took it to acknow-
ledge that the claim of the Pope to a spiritual headship
over the church was unfounded in sense, contrary. to the
law and constitution of these realms, and unsenptural.
(Cheers.) But as he was aware there were many opinions
on that point. The church of Rome was essentially an epis-
copal one. It was a religious society placed under the govern-
meet of men who claimed a Divine mission for the autho-
rity they exercised, and these men constituted the hierarchy
of the church of Rome. If they prevented the order of epis-
copacy and prohibited the bishops, the hierarchy would be
incomplete, and the liberty of our Roman catholic fellow-
subjects would be encroached upon.(Cheers.) In this coun-
try, for near 300 years, there had been no catholic bishops,
but it was found that the Timers apostolic were capable
of discharging all spiritual functions touching the office of
bishop. (Hear, hear.) The Roman catholic bishop was
not merely the depositary of some spiritual power, as the ,
administration of sacraments or other like directly spiritual
functions—he was believed to have, by Divine institution, a'
power of governing the society, a power of ecclesiastical juris-
diction. They could not deny that some sort of ecclesiastical
jurisdiction belonged to the bishops of the Roman catholic
church. (Hear.) Every head of a society must have suffi-
, cient power to enable him to administer the concerns of that
society. They knew that for 300 years the concerns of the
Roman catholics in this country had been administered by
vicars apostolic under the constitution of Benedict IV.
And if a government of bishops in ordinary were necessary
for the administration of the canon law, he saw no ob-
jection, no ground of complaint, to the Pope's constituting