The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE
Il OF COMM
theONSchair.—WEreasilty, MARCII 3.
The hrlAa took et tirelve o'clock.
NU VATZ BUSINEIII.
PE77IIONB.—By Mr. II how theWellersiot of the Raver
Thome, egoists the iloregerry WILL
SECOND LIKADINOIS— sod lunette° WA.
vm. (deelodes et a.); Birio es* Word junctioe he,
iblarrk oed Illeodbed km) ;71eepaa. v. olverbasoptrA, and
play, (altilealdre to ed Meat ilinxualcbl ; Prate,. c,,,,,,,„
ties Liam/ Penimaaa bl. . 7.11. M. Mult,'.4 llailway
;Lr eod Irs.11.1=1:1 ILE:a. .1 R. 1." and Lynn
at Denim Counties Bail
at las Ifortliriallwa7). Eastern C =
7
IdLattlia. W. awl laabstree Itillway amyase*
aai thilittat Maw and wake I
lend& Ida WIZ .1. lamome• Ralfwer (...o. S) (dormodos its
Bury di. NaIIMMIC• Is Sillibmilli Land= aid Node-Woken Is&
...y (Rinikomakol Lama Ina :a.); Pisaembar.
Mika. sod MOM brace Bair 0 Devmin... lei ai a Bo:
way (ESmisa state Nellighem laid Lamas re* at Lomb);
?tetnienteet aid Chodortkrd Railvay otougdp.o6. admiim
the empeeoo INs do lot ea the Eastern Deondes 2.... A.;.
w............. ~.., Dublin Railway:
eihtaa. d Waititir • London ant rioritMeeteed
.) to Berkswell, .braackee. la); ladle
Praedneeters (Coventry ask Narks brewers) ; rodeo
mad Melba/ellen Italivrey (Mbtaawit oil Wltlarta branch) E.

PUBLIC BUIEWERL
TETITIONS.-137 Sir O. toraumumns. from Dowsboay; Mr. Nom.
DiGATS ((four petit:tom), tram Lard 0, ftrnsce
dry
',endow), from Burg sod 2110tillt Awe ; Us O.ooirt, tram
surgeons ; Mr. Wmadv, hoot ftMilant of the Rept
Surgeons ; Lord lone Roma; from lieuelester,
Bury, md RAMIS ; MAGXIAT. Ikea
and Ourobotousb ; Mr. T. Dulinnonk from !i'rf eel elm lleMe
all he favour of the radars 1111.—/te. me hen tine fru
peruse, moieties, agidnat the oar .1 hi the dlieliellee ef ardent
pints.—Mr. IhnfOONISi, &Qin block-printers la the au* be ea ed.
ante of 30,0004
ofd for emplommeat.—Mr. Wan" tea Luebeth,
for the aboLties l taus co faad.

RAILWAYS.
On the motion of Mr. Stour!, it was ordered, that the
comenqteeein every railway bill shall fix the toile, and shall
determine the maximum rates of charge for the conveyance
of passengers, with a due amount of luggage, and of goods
en such railway, and such rates of charge shall include the
tolls, and the costs of locomotive power, and every other ex-
pense connected with the conveyance of passengers, with a
due amount of luggage, and of goods upon such railway ;
but if tho committee shall not deem it expodieat to deter-
mine such maximum rates of charge, a special report, expla-
natory of the grounds of their omitting so to do, shall he
made to the house, which special report shall accompany the
report of the bill.
FACTORIES BILL.
On the order of the day that the house go into committee
ela this bill,
Mr. ESCOTT rose to move, as an amendment, that
the bill be committed that day six months. Those
who considered that in this measure they were bene-
fiting the labouring population in cur manufacturing dis-
tricts, might be very benevolent persons, but they were at
the same time most erroneous in their views. He himself
regarded it as a =cameo which, in crippling energies and
capital, would inevitably most materially cripple the energies
of labour, and deprive tee workmen of a considerable portion
of that employment which at present scarcely sufficed for
their subsistence. Take the ease of Hare Mills, two-thirds
of the workmen engaged upon them were employed out
of the walls, and their employment wholly depended
01 the =aerials supplied them day by day from within.
What would be their condition when the production
of those within was limited in the way proposed ? With
respect to the foreign trade, the proposed bill was
the maddest project ever thought of. Why, the foreign
trade so much exceeded the consumption of this country,
that reducing the hours of labour would destroy more than
the entire of our home consumption. Besides, this bill was
introduced at a time of European scarcity. Was this a
moment to say to the workman, " You *hall not work."
when provisions were eta famine price, and it required all
his energies to scramble for a subsistence? (Hear, hear.) He
had high authority for deprecating the proposed measure.
On the let July, 1839, the noble lord the First Lord of the
Treasury, speaking on the motion of Lord Ashley, said,
Did the noble lord mean to Es the wages while he cur-
tailed the hours of labour ? If he did, he meant to do
what was impossible ; if he did not, the commit.* must
know that to shorten the hoursoflabour, ate time, too, when
provision' were so dear, would be inhumanity. Therefore, he
must vote against the measure." (Hear, hear.) Why had
the noble lord changed his opinion in 1847 ? Were provisions
lower? were times better? (Hear, hear.) Another reason
why they should hesitate in passing this measure was the
had succces which had attended former interference. The
supporters of the bill, said, You have interfered already ;
it is only a question of degree, why not go further ?" In his
opinion that was a reason why they should not go further.
Every former interference was promised to be final, but it
only created a necessity for further interference. The Ap- ,
prenticeship Act only brought about the employment of
unapprenticed children, and the Factory Act of 1832
increased the labour of women in factories to an unpre-
cedented degree. A noble lord, formerly a member
of that house (Lord Ashley), had made many speeches on
the question, generally garnished with dreadful statements
of the horrors of factory labour,—etatements which he
(Mr. Esoott) would engage to get up respecting almost any
system of labour. (Hear, hear.) He contended that the
noble lord had condescended to use garbled statements. On
referring to the commission reports which the noble lord bad
used, be found evidence to this effect. A foreman being ex-
amined, said, Our men sometimes work half an hour
over time. They never grumble at it, and sometimes ask
it." He had never heard the noble lord read that extract.
(Hear, hear.) Again, a working man said, " I like sixteen
hours work as well as twelve, it is very welcome when
the pay-day comes." Another said, " I dont know
that the over-time does us any harm, but I know
that the over-pay does us a great deal of good."
There were many ether pieces of evidence of the same kind,
proving among other things that the children preferred the
factory work in winter. The hon. and learned member
having quoted the evidence of the Rev. Mr. Fielding to
show that there was nothing in factory labour injurious
either to le alth or morality, proceeded to say: The noble
lord should have quoted this evidence, and then the house
would have heard both rides of the question. (Hear, bear.)
There was a memorial which had been presented that morn-
ing, and to which the house could not pay too much atten-
tion. It was signed by the representatives of three-fourths
of the wealth of Lancahire, and stated that legislative in-
terference with factory labour could not be reconciled with
any sound principle. It would only cause the emigration
of capital from the country, and must prove a series' ob acle
to the employment of labour. The memorialists protested
against further interference, and threw the whole respon-
sibility of the measure on her Majesty's tovernment. He
implored the government to refuse their sanction. The
working men were acting under a delusion. He believed
that if they were convinced that reduction of labour must
be attended with reduction of wages they would reject it
at once. This menthre would not settle the question, it
would never be settled while the working clams were
exposed to periodical distress and consequently discontent,
and therefore he trusted that the house would reject the
bill. He moved that it be committed that day six months.
Mr. BECKETT, who was scarcely audible, was under-
stood to oppose the amendment. He believed that the opera-
tives were sincerely anxious for the vuccees of the bill.
(Hear, hear.) They had discussed it in their clubs and over
their pots of ale, and they were convinced that prolonged
labour was most injurious to the constitution. They were
supported in this view by many of the manufacturers, who ,
had petitioned in favour of an Eleven HOLM' Bill. (Hear,
hear.) He was inclined to support that view himself, for
although he should prefer ten hours, yet he was unwilling
suddenly to disturb long-established systems. An Eleven
Hours' Bill would be • great improvement, it would take off
the last hour of toil, and permit the workmen to spend some
time among their families. It would also enable them to
attend evening lectures, schools of design, and other educa-
tional institutions. The petitioners to whom he alluded
had tried eleven hours, it had worked well, and wagee bad
not diminished in proportion. (Hear, hear.) With these
views it was his intention to support the bill.
Mr. WARD said that the house bad frequently, advanced
and retreated on this question. First, the motion of the
noble lord the member for Doraetshire was carried by a small
majority ; and no sooner was it carried than it was reversed.
Last year, after a full disc-union, the =canes was negatived
by a majority of 10; and this year the second reading pawed
by a majority of 108. The house then divided in favour of
a ten hours bill ; the hon. member for Leeds now proposed a
mass termine, in the shape of an eleven hours' bill, hoping
thereby to settle the queetion. He (Mr. Ward) did not be-
lieve that it could thus be settled; his honourable friend
the member for Oldham would not accept each a
settlement. (" Hear," from Mr. Fielden.) The whole
question was, could they pass the bill without reducing
wages ? If they thought they could, if they were certain of
it, he would go the whole way with them and vote for a ten
hours' bill. (Hear, hear.) He knew that in the view he
took of this question, he differed from many of his constitu-
ents and from several members of the government, but he
had the deepest convictions as to the course he ought to take.
He had last year pointed out the danger of encouraging
delusions among the working classes, and also that the home
was giving a legislative sanction to the proceedings of the
trades' unions. He believed that there was sot one of the
working men who would take a ten hours' bill if they were
sure of a reduction of wages. (Cries of " Olt, oh," and
" Hear, hear.") Let them be asked, and his state-
ment would be found to be correct. (Hear.) In some of
the statements he had made last year, relative to the trades'
unions, he believed he had overstated one point, namely, es
to fathers being prohibited taking their own sone as appren-
nose. It bad since been explained to him, that except in
some insignificant branches of trade that unnatural metric-
non did not exit. lie felt bound thus to correct publicly
his former misstatement. (Hear.) He was quite willing
to admit that in one town, where short time had been tried,
it bad worked well hitherto, and bad produced temporary
advantages to the working cloves. By arrangements
amongst themselves wages bad bean kept up, but the
question was, could this be done permanently (Hear.)
In hardware, cotton, and others of our mcietwisistioetant ma-
nufacture*, 2 or 3 per cent. would turn the cosiest us
in neutral markets, and if by raising the coat production
this result should take place, we thou* permanently shut
out this great source of employment for mar working classes.
Even the warmest advocates of the working clams looked
upon the measure as an experiment only, and not one of
them did more than hope for its mew= and it was for the
home to ponder well upon the probabilities of that hope
being realised before they consented to Incur the risk. As
to the argument about the ingratitude of the free traders in
refusing this boon, as it was termed, to the operatives, it
ma be remeab-red that free trade was not a name merely,
has a Wag. Free trade was a measure, the benefits
at which would develops themselves gradually, not at once.
He ohm idetre his vote in favour of delaying the operation
414 r Ups .tile reminding, the vote to which the house had.

sable believed, most unadvisedly came the other day ; for, of
all times, 'as thought that the most unhappily chosen far an
experiment of this nature, when the scarcity end high price
of corton was occiaioning a diminution in the demand for
labour, while the price of provisions was rising. Seeing the
Cfficulties occasioned by dear cotton—dear teed—a great
calamity in Ireland, which was now spreading its influence
over other parts of the world—an influx of fresh labour
coming in from every quarter—he mutt say this wes a moat,
unhappy time to attempt by enactment to limit the hour.; of
labour. Though no one could hope more sincerely 'tan he
did that the experiment, if tried, would be succee4n), yet,
entertaining the views he did, he should be neceding his
duty if he did not give his vote in favour of delay.

Mr. BROTHEATON contended that the question for
the house to consider Aas whether females and young per-
sons from 13 to 18 years of age should be compelled to work
thirteen hours every day in • fetid atmosphere without re-
tention ? He could of his own knowledge my that the
operatives themselves were generally in favour of the mea-
sure. (Hear.) He admitted that it was most desirable for
the state to avoid as far as possible interfering with the
employment of labour. Bat if the House of Commons I
were to Inn, everything to the roles of political economy,
their la'aoure would be very much curtailed (Hear.) Thoy i
interNred with these rules every day. They had interfered i
witlathetu in their legislation as between landlord and tenant
—roaster and apprentice—shipowners and seamen, and in a
hundred other cases. (Hear.) Political economists argued
against all legislation on the subject of factory labour. Why,
then, was a factory bill ever passed? Because it was found
that working in factories was an exception to the general i
rule. When, in 1815, the late Sir lb. :'eel brought forward
his bill it was ascertained that many of the mills were kept
ruaning seventy to ninety hours • week, and that
children of six years of age were often compelled to vdorie
that number of hours in the same time. 1 hat, the house
thought, was a sufficient ground for deputing from the
rules of political economy and interfering as between the
employer and the employed. If all men were humane
there would be no need of legislation—or if they were to ley
it down that the working classes were made to eat, to drink,
to work, and to die only, they might then safely leave these
things to the strict rules of political economy. (Hear.)
It was said, leave this matter to the parties themselves, and
they will come to an arrangement, but had they done so ?
Nothing ef the kind, nor was there any hope of such •
result. (Hear, hear.) It was in consequeuce of the pre-
poaderance of females in factories that this further legis-
lation was necessary. They had legislated to protect the
children, because they were weak; and they must now, for
the same reason, interfere for the protection of the females
In factories, the weak worked side by side with the strong,
and, while the one might beat up against the labour without
inconvenience, the other would sink under it. When he
was a boy, he knew what it was for the weak to work those
long hours, by his own experience as • factory worker. He
had feelings and sentiments then on the subject, and formed
the resolution that, if ever he had the power, he would use
hie utmost endeavours to bring about a diminution of the
bears of labour for women and children. (Cheers.) And
be was proud to say that this feeling of his boyhood was
retained in his elder age. (Hear, hear.) He did not accuse
tits masters of inhumanity in working their hands long
beam Capital and labour were so combined, and compe-
tition was so powerful, that it was impossible for any master
to resin the temptation to do so, unless all were com-
pelled to take the same course. Even the honourable
member for Oldham, rich as he was, were he to carry
out in his own mills the humane principles be advo-
cated, would, onkel there were a law requiring all to
do the same, soon be in the Osseo.. (Hear, hear.)
The working dames would not be alarmed by the statement
that a reduction of wages meat necessarily follow • diminu-
tion in the hours of labour. They knew that the greater
part of their work was said for be the niece. and nut by time
They looked to what had been the result of former changes,
emd they bead that whereas, during the last thirty years, the
pries of the welds bed thestasted more than 40 per cent.,
wages hod mot deeremed 1111111 than lor 2 per cent. Nor
did he I=l the larr contemplated bye to non. mem-
ber for in doe ling off of our exports, as resulting
frees the eedustion in the hours of labour. The
man entered during the last year, would more
Mena all such reductions. The prophecies
albs limiters se to the ruinous effeete to our commerce of
aWilliting the hours of labour, had not been borne out by
the mink of the previous enactments in that direction. On
the eontrary, our exports bad gone on increasing, and last '
year we exported 26,000.000 of cation yarn more than during
the previous year. The export of cotton goods had also ma-
terially ineemend in that, as compared with the preceding,
year. no codnetion of the cotton-tax alone, which was
wild to M. • week in the wages of the operatives, would
mew lima muspensate the masters for any decreased produc-
' Men eemeetnest on a diminution in the hours of labour. It was
a meeker, and a delusion to tell the working classes that
CRP:rwas anxious to promote their physical and moral
erun by establishing parks and institutions, while
1 they were compelled to labour twelve or thirteen hours •
day. He did not believe the statement that if this bill mooed
—which he had the highest authority for saying was not to
decease wages. but to advance wages at the expense of
oapital—that the working classes would continue to agitate.
He believed the measure would be advantageous to all
pees, and when the operatives once felt the benefit of it he
vie convinced they would cease to be agitator,. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM had listened with muds pleasure to the
speech of the hon. member for Salford, the more so as he was
not till then aware that, as a factory operative, he had admi-
nistered with his own hands to his own wants. (Hear.)
That circumstance reflected great honour upon the hon.
gentleman, and it afforded him (Sir J. Graham) not a little
gratification to sit in that house with him on terms of
perfect equality—(hear, hear)—fer the speech of the hon.
gent. was of itself the most convincing proof that from the
very humblest classes of the community gentlemen might
rise to stations of the highest importance and influence by the
exercise of honest industry and unblemished integrity (hear);
but the course of life to which the hon. gentleman owed his
success bad been compatible with long hours of labour; and
he was himself a proof that, by careful employment of time in
that branch of industry they were now discussing, the moat
useful and honourable acquirements were compatible with
long hours of labour. He could not admit the doctrine that
when you could not convince the multitude you should give
way to them. (Hear.) The question was not as the hoe.
pandeman had put it, whether or not they should compel
wanes and children to work twelve hours a day; it was,
whether they should, by direct legislation, restrain large
' misme of industrious persons, who were willing to work
twelve hours a day, for the purpose of earning theirjivelihood,
from doing so. When such large masses were concerned,
he admitted that it might not in all cases be wise
to adhere to the strict rules of political economy
and could he eatiasishimeelf that this measure would be
sonducive to the of those for whose benefit it was
Wended, it woo not adherence to that science, as the
mass of ethinceing and distributing with equality and
Nile, the welbsal wealth, which would induce him to
meet the bill with the firm opposition he felt compelled to
oar to it. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman had made
one observation which was by no means convincing to him,
He had asked, " Shall we lay it down that to eat, to drink,
to work, and to die, only, shall be the lot of a large portion of
our fellow-men ?" He was compelled by truth to say that,
not in this country alone, but in all other, that weeregarded
by the larger number as the sum of human life. And it being
thus, by the dispensation of providence, necessary that they
should work for their subsistence, the question was, !should
they, by legislative interference, assist them in passing
their lives in comparative ease and comfort, or add
to the difficulties of their existence, and still further
embitter their lot? Having given his best attention to the
= and with reference to the political question, he was
by the position which the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had taken up in regard to our foreign trade and the
revenue, while, with reference to the working classes, he had
little to add to what bad been stated by the hon. secretary
to the admiralty (Mr. Ward). The hon. gentleman (Mr.
Brotherton) had referred to the amount of our exports and
foreign trade, and had said that the export' in the cotton
trade had not materially diminished. He (Sir J. Graham)
held in hii hand an account of the trade and navigation of
the country, which contained a statement of the exports of
1846 as compared with those of 1845. The bill they were
disowning dealt with the labour in the four great etude,—
cotton, wool, linen or flax, and silk. He found that the
declared value of the whole of our exports -- the spe-
cified articles was, .in the year 1840, 61,279,0001.
Of this, 37,386,0001., or about four-efthe of the
whale, was in cotton, linen, wool, and silk. Now as to cot-
ton : the export of cotton manufactures in 1846, as compared
with 1846, mm0'817,726,0001. in 1846 to 19,156,0001. in 184,5,
showing • falling off of 1,430,0001. in the declared
value in one year. In linen manufacture, the export in
1846 had been 2,838,0001. against 3,036,0001. in 1845. In
wool, both in yarn and manufactured goods, there was also
a deficiency in 1846 as compared with 1846, the exports being
in 1845—ofyarn 1,066,0001., in 1846, 907,0001. ,• and in
manufa goods, in 1846, 7,693,0001., and in 1846,
6,334,0001. In silk there was • very small increase • the
exports being, in 184,5, 766,0001., and in 1846, 837,0001.
Thus, taking the staple articles of our manufacturing in-
dustry, there was a falling off between 1845 and 1846 of
some 15 per cent. He would refer shortly to certain admim
lien& made by the right hon. baronet (the Home Secretary)
who differed from his right hon. colleague, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer; admissions large in themselves, and, as he
contended, almost conclusive against the right hoe. baronet's
own argument. The first and most important wee, that ha
would not be any party to the delusion that the proposed
alteration would not necessarily lead to a reduction of wages.
With prime rising, and wages having already fallen in mu-
mmer of the falling off ef employment, the right hon. ba-
met sentensplated a still further redaction as the result of
Ms bill. (Hear.) Then, he said, hitherto the house had
boom able to carry with them the concurrence of the masters
is their legislation ; but, in this case, not only was that eon-
curium not given, bat a large majority of the master ma-
nufacturers and eariployera dissented, and said that it was
frhught with extreme danger. Then followed another ad-
Minion, which was also important, as bearing on another
branch of the saltiest ; for if the health of the employed
were seriously_ salami by the present hours of la.
be, it would he A ser demo in their 011111116.
MOM ; but, as ha aohee the et honourable bereret,
Ida all the MMUS mil mess elhadmaidian from illaka
inpemors sad gime. tibia be bars at Ms asereml. he
MIMI to the ensekelen st, mass the apieltsi selphdast.
Ise ahem alit IMMOI. their bed& 11116 not ha
Wm.) Tim ems Pet veisk yes NW more
*Weise eit the deg ben. tersest, that he
spiel eikk bis eileespe dr nobki kid at the heed et dm
weelictilma the temeamion of anon hosus bill weablbe
'me masgefivit nod Aright with eigeor, aid that mow
Crbe wesekse to take his stunilieithedemet beam
am mambas he Oldham, who unfleausnag the
et the warlike elemrramoryerild tell them that the eleven beans
limit would net b• to them, and that they peal
sot male to *Mb awls they obtained the ten hours MIL