The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-07 00:00:00

lemur caves or handier efts should be required in port of the prison
discipline.
'lb wah a clew to punishment awell no teformation,
evil senro-
tion with I hour should in proper cm •oe effected, but not doer
ecsainemint. unte-s for pylon °gimes and for abort period. ot time.
that both with a view to economy sod to tomidosot. dete"knO
and reforming, it is espedient to award time sentences with compel.
wry Libor indeat of time sentences ondy. and to melte the durstion
of iramisonment and the quality of diet depend upon ths prisoner's
conduct and the amount of his labour, due rived Wing bad to ffiMe,-
wee of ors, , and pereeMb.
That in prisons dee attention should be always phis to yell-
tosau.kand mewl Women" end a prover Prowls" of wow kcal
That as in an mesons the
the' of demob more on
the Red aed knowtedes of oaken dean mis
rules and ssechuical
woogemenes, u le of the high" "au"' to °elect each sleeve
with g red ewe, and so to rentwatime them as to command the most
efficient femme.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE mid that his noble and
teemed friend hal not overstated the importance of the sub•
ject to which he thought fit to call the attention of the houth,
Rev unfortunately had he overstated the diffleulties which
accompanied it. And it wee, perhaps, a sufficient proof of
these OA:allies, that for now three quartets of a century—
free tie period when the illustrious Howard first acquired
that repot sties wbieh still attached tv big name—when he
endue.. k what Mr. Burke called " that circumnavigation
of cearity " in which be laid bare the 'bun of the prison
spite m %high then press led—the attention of the country
hal, been constantly directed to this subject, and the nee s-
ilty et legislation and of en improved adminioration of the
prison. recognised, and that during all that time so
grea blame could be said to bare attached ei her
to the crown or the legislature, or to thee'
pert.re who both in and out of parliament bad I
peeve I melees moms on the &mei en of the public for I
sot bevies me ye t found one to satisfy the wishes of the sole-
meshy is tbs. particular department. He, in mammon with
Maim, had Ms attention celled at various times to the &feels
el s mining systems ; bat he had never men that eyelets of
which it 'plea emelt limey be said that it had succeeded in
attaining the greet object which it is the duty of all Maids
eon to took In erennezion with this subject Bat their of rig
during the period he bed mentioned were not entirely um-
lees. insomuch as certain conclureas bad been arrived at,
which would lay the foundation of somethith like en ex-
perimental science. which might be succeratully applied in
blare testes. With roped to the resolutions of
the o
nble lor there wee m uch in them of which he entirely
opprneed, andd, la which he weditlly concurred, though pm- '
hap. eimmeed la torus stronger than he should have thought
it r phi 10 employ The two first resoloti ots applied to the
clarification of effendi's, and the newel. yof enfsming it.
He minuted the importance of classificatioa ex far as it
could be stubbed, bet hie objection to it was founded on his
hetf that it wee ispeesible to obtain a perfect system f
elemi&a ion is soy. other mode than by that of a sepsiso!'
sittslof each individual. (Beer.) Were persons who
eises
toms the same crime to be clamed together ? Bat per-
Was el the most abandoned character, and others who had
severlea vigil/ of an cases. eccePt in this Particular
iestance, mirth& be ism:Mimed for the same crime. (Bear,
beer. j Would it be right to put thus together? Was it to
be • clmsificatioa of age? But here main Peaces of every
age might be guilty of the mine crimes. (Hear)
athificatim by sex was liable to the objection that the
young would be contaminated by **old. He wee of opinion
that any either classification than that of separate
sent must be abandoned ; and he was hippy to say
that this ',stem prevailed •ant only in the model
prison at Pentonville, which he inspected himself in
essapany site an illustrious foreigner, the Duke de Broglie,
who waste satiefl d with the system, that he had been since
summed In introducing it into Fiance, but that it had been
Introduce I into 50 or GO other prisons in this country, and,
as he believed, with success. It must not be eel:teased that
the senate system wee applied in every particular case.
Work wee also supplied to the prisoners—to the industrious
es
asp- cies of solace, and to thou who were not industrious
es
a punishment, in order to deter from the trommiesion of
crime. Tue c including resolutions of his noble and learned
friend mewed to him to be at variance with the principle
which he tail down in the 4th, namely, that the
prisms thoold be made a place of terror, in Wm to dett r
from the commission of crime. That seemed to him (the
Marquis of Linedowne) to be the inundation of all prison
discipline, for if limy did rot make the prison a piece of
terror, they must fail entirely in the object they had in
view. Tears could be no doubt that the amendment of the
criminal was • desirable object ; but, in his opinion, there
was • primary object which should take penedence of that
—mar ly, to mike the punishment such as would deter per-
sons from the CO2IIIIWIMOU of crimes which would subject them
to that punishment, becalm*, whilst the restoring of indivi-
dual. to the path of virtue could only apply to hundred*, or
at the most to thousands, the principle of der g
from crime would apply to millions. When the criminal
wee mobjectod to that puni•lonent of separate confinement for
• sell, wet time he would be removed from it, but his lo-
pes nicest would be prolonged for ooze time longer, in
order that those palliatives which might improve the mind
of the prisoner, and repo.: him fur hie return to society,
night be applied. This syst-m was now adopted in
amity prisons, and he hoped that the time was not din
thot who ea it would be uniformly practised. After the
separate confinement had been g no through, the prisoners
would, under certain circumstances, be employed on
public works and other memos of reformation such
as his noble friend suggested wonid be used.
Hu% he thought the suggestions of hie noble friend
anplied rather to the atcondasy siege of punishment,
and not to the fl-st, (Hear, hear.) The amount of punish-
ments for oflenees committed in the prison was infinitely less
tower the separate system of confinement than under any
other. Not one-fourth or ene-fifth of the persons who were
under the separate system received ouch additional punish-
let tat, whereas in other prisons the number of punisher ore
-ea'ly exceeded the number of prisoners. Every 01110 of
thew poresbneests tented to atop the progress of reform, foe
thee ten-le dto summate the mind of the pris nier, whereas
end, r the separate system the mind was kept ia
that state in which they could afterwards work for the
purpee eof effecting a complete reform. Thin was in itself
a greet be weir, but the value of the separate system emu still
forth r proved by the fact that—although he admicted suffi.
Mem time had nut elapsed to justify a decided conclusion—
the recommittal., where that system prevailed, were fewer
than were it did net. (Hear. hear.) It in the progress of
time the was found to be cue, it would bee most satisfactory
proof of its success. But he could SWUM their lordship'
that the subject would attract, as it had attroctod, the atten-
tion of the government. He would only refer to moodier sub-
ject, Lamely the subject of the prim nets' food, and on that
point he agreed with his noble and learned friend, that it
woe desinthei thatthe food should be kept down as low as wee
connivent with the health of the prisoners. Hear, hear )
In many comities the food given was something like a luxury,
and the accoents spread of it by prisoners when they elms
cut ot pa I were such that they attracted persons of sensual
sod profligate character to commit crimes for the purpose of
enj eying it. (Hear ) His tight hon. frieod wasnow instituting
inquiries en thisauttject, and whilst everything would be done
that was consiotenit with humanity en the one hand, on the
other the principle of • just severity in respect to the deterring
hem crime would be adhered to. He did not wish to
meet the resolutions of his noblt and learned friend with
a detect negative. He should therefore ocly move the pre-
vious qoesticn if his noble and learned friend pressed hie
reselutions, which he hoped he would not do. (Hear.)
Ater a few words in explanation from Lord BROUGHAM,
The Earl of CHICHESTER said that the want of a
uniformity of system and of • controlling power wee greatly
to be reeretted, sad although the right honourable gen-
tleman (Sir O. Orgy) made meat efforts fur this purpose
he did not tt ink it meld be effected without a comprehensive
set of parliament. He entire ly concurred with the noble
and learned lord opposite that there ought to be a different
system for juvenile and adult offenders. With regard
to the emirate system—it moat be recollected thst it
was adopted many years ego, after a thorough investigation,
end after the gommement had ample opportunity of seeing
low it worked in the United States, from the able report
of the 'enamel& who had been seat out tn that country.
The real object of prison discipline Wee, fine, its deterring
effect, and, seeond.y, its Weaning effect. They all knew
what the consequences of the old system were. Now, as to
the effect of the separate system upon convicts, he could tell
their lordships, upon the very best authority, that it
was most salutary. He trusted, and most sincerely hoped,
that whatever changes might be introduced, advantage
would be taken of the experience they had already had, and
he felt cowhand that no system of imyrisonetent could suc-
ceed unless, is the first instance at least, there was complete
esparation.
The B of OXFORD thought the remarks made by
Reply lords daring the debate called se/dolly for • few ob
megaliths from him. Reference bad been made to the
Reading Om I and the discipline adopted in that establish-
lathe The tae's spp-and in the vapors upon their lord
ships' table, and he tbnught the readmits who emducted
that gaol, and edits had intimated themselves for the im-
provement of the prisoners in it, were entitled to the marked
thanks and approval of the country. It appeared try the
evidence of the witnesses examined before the committee that
the pris mem were mineipally employed In sn.dy. Not
merely that they were taught to read or write, but that they
au tied and were taueht such truths as not only prevented
them from sinking from the con'aminating influence of their
sesneiates, but improved their minds, rendered them better
ei 'zone and reimd them considerably in a social and moral
point ("view. Hs believed the system of solitary ethfiem
sent was one of the most severe that could be. It had
the most terrifying effects on those who experienced it.
The Earl of HARROWBY sai 1 that having had omen-
vulture of observing the working of the separate system at I
Pentonville and in the county of Stafford (with which he
NU connected), he could bear testimony to the sillily of the
eyries It bad been in operation in Staffordshire now, for two
years and • half, and it had worked extremely well. Ho
hoped sincerely it would be introduced into parts of the
country where it wee not now used.
Lord BROUGHAM briefly replied. Them wee, in polite
of fats, no Oar rev ea whatever between himself and his noble '
friends when they came to uuderemnd each other. He had
act the least doubt about the edelweisse of the septette
system, when implied in its proper siege, sod amongst the
pones, clue. They could not put untried prisoners in soli
tary cells.
A noble LORD—Ob, It is done.
L-rd BROUGHAM—WeII then, if it is, it is quite wrong.
To put untried prisoners, who limy be totally guiltless and
innocent of the charges alleged against them, into separate
Dells is wholly nojustiiiable. I thought such things
might be dose upon the other side of the than-
mil but it now appears done upon this side.
After the statements which bat been elieited in the
discussion of that evening, he would not farther death
Roble lord., but, with the leave of the I our-, should with-
draw his resolutions. (gear, bear.) In doing ee he would
add, that be most willingly left the aubj• ot is the heads of
his noble Mend. being perfectly saii.li from the 'push
which their lordship, bad beard from that Loh)* lend, that
the matter could not be in better or abler buds.
The neolittlass were withdrawn accordingly.

AUDIT OF RAILWAYS ACCOUNTS BILL. •
On the bringing up of the report on the amendments on
this bill,
A Nooks Para said that he had prepared an amendment
to the 21st clause of the bill, which he considered to be of
some importance, and with a ropy of which be had 'tar-
nished the noble lord opposite (Lord !doter egle). IJader
etending, however, that it was deemed very expedient that
the program of the bill through the house should not be
impeded, he was willing to waive bringing forward the
amendment in question, provided that the noble lord would
assure him that there would be no objection to its being
brought forward in committee on the bill in another place.
Lord MONTBAOLB begged to express tie obligations
to the noble lord toe the manner iu which he bed put
the subject of this amendment to their lordships. On his
part, he had era& pirmeem in being enabled to state that,
having pet himself la eirmutinication with his noble friend
the Vice President of the Board of Trade on this matter, he
found that there would be no objection to this amendment
being introduced is the way and on the occasion referred to
by his noble friend. It nasals° hie intention to have another
claw* introduced into the bill, in like manner, uuder which
the railway oomthesion woul (sow a power tif varying, at
their discretion, the times fired sod specific) at
which railway conthanks should be re quired to make up
their aceounti, Is order to their being puoliely submitted to
audit. (Hear) ) This would prove, be trusted, a means of
frovidieg additional smartly and protection to shareholders
sad the public in general, and an effrosive check upon
the (stare miaow inent or direction of these railway.
The report having been read, the bill was read a third
time and gamed.
The Burl of HARROWBY, on moving the second reed-
theof the Drawly of B•tates Bill, begged to ohs. rye, on
pert of a noble duke who had requested him to move
their lordships to give it a wend reading (in the absence
of that noble duke la the country on quarter sessions bu-i-
-sass), that it was his grace's intention runt week to submit
various amendmtuts to their lordships, on the bill going
iota committee.
The bill was read a secrnti time accordingly, and their
lordships adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS.—FILIDAY, JULY 6.
The SITAILIi took the chair at 12 o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
SECOND READING.—EoyaI Pavilion (Beghton) Bill.
THIRD READING.—Louth Markets and Improve.
meats Bill.
LORDS' AMENDMENT; CONSIDERED.—Eat Lo-
thian Centel Railway (abandonment of the railway and
dissolution of the company); Stirewsbury and Chester ELI.
way (for branches to the river ; sgreemect for joint
station at Shrewsbury; (um? to subscribe towards the
Shrewsbury and Hereford Railway) ; Torquay Market ;
Bills.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
PROTECTION TO WOMEN BILL.—By Lord A. E. BILL
and Mr. WADDINGTON, tram various places in Suffolk,
in favour of this bilL
RIMS REGULATIONS (IRELAND).—By Mr. REY-
NOLDS, from the distillers of Dublin, complaining of the
excise es gulatioie.
ATTAIEE or Roan.—By Mr. ROEBUCK, from Shef-
field, against the French interventon in the attain of Rome.
Buza-aocess.—By Mr. GLADSTONE, from the pa-
riehioners of St. Paul's, Liverpool, praying that no new
licenses may be granted to beer-h• uses, and that, those
already gra4ted may Expire with the meant holders.

POOR RELIEF BILL.
On the order of the day latiog read for sl.ssidering this bill
u amended Mthe committee,
Sir G. GREY moved that the following clause originally
suggested by Mr. Nepier, be learned in the hill.
And telt enacted that when any rate for the re:ief of the poor shall
be made after the wring of this act, it shall not be lawful to corn-
seem my roceeding for th.• recovery of any arrear thereof agai..st
say peon not o
cherl to pay the same, uniew within the
period al two years nest the making and putuiabing of the said
rate.
Kr. S. CRAWFORD then moved the insertion of a clause
to the effect—
That so much of an set already pawed and in operation for the
more effectual relief of the poor in Ireland, as provided that whenever
the net annual value of the whole of the rateable property occupied
by are person in any union *hall not meted tire pont Is, the rate on
such property @hellbent tde on the imnudiate imam. be repealed.
He was not at all deiirrais to estahlish the principle that
persons not paupers should be exempt from paying rates. He
did not make the proposition out o: any favouri.imi to land-
lords, he proposed a repeal of the law because he thought it
acted most detrimental to the ()our, who suffered from evic-
tions which were encouraged by the law as it stood.
After a few words Dom Mr. P. SCRAPE and other hon.
members,
Sir G. GREY admitted that the elaum had bern pro.
ductive of very great evils, but at the urns time
it appeared to ham that they should be careful in mak.ng
any alteration, lest they may increase those evils. Mr.
Twisleton was of opinion that, on the whole, it was bet er
to get the rate from the immediate lea' or He (Sir G.
Grey) thought that the house would be very unwise to con-
sent to the repeal of t: e tx sting clause. as it would endanger
the collection of • large &meant of rates.
After a few words from Sir Lucius O'Batet in fay tar of
the motion of the hon. member for R chdale,
Lard J. RUSSELL said that he hord that the house
would come to • division en %hi, question awn. He was of
opinion that two vei y serious evils would midi from the re-
peal of the clause which elided in the set of pirltanient,
one would be that there would be a much less sum fur the
relief of the poor, owing to the difficulty of collection, aced
the other that there would be • much greater chance
of their having frrquilt collisions between the peasantry
and the armed force in Ireland which would be brought
out to enfant. the collection of Vie rate, For
these reasons he thought it safer to leave the clause u it
stood in the act of parli'.ment than to adopt the proposition
of the hon. member for Rochdale.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL acid that this question was attended
with very great ditiLmlre, and suggested that the hon. mem-
ber tor Rochdale should withdraw his motion, i: the voile
lord (J. Kugel]) promised to take the matter into consieers-
ties. If it were pressed to a division he should give his vote
in its favour.
After • few wor.h from Mr. 8. CRAWFORD, the house
divided—
For the clause
Against it 55-30
. . .

The isitien yes weediest, loss.
Sir R.PERGUSON moved a elates to the effect—
Test as sere as the guardians of any anion shall have received
from the 001011111401itra 01 valuation the wduatinn of all the town-
lands situate in any electoral division of each union all rates there-
alter to be made on 'orb divhion shall he made accordiog to such
valuation, until revised, with a provision that all estahishments,
theme, he., shall be chargeable on such electoral divisions, according
to the net enema value of the rateable property therein, previous to,
and only until, the time such valuation shall have been received from
the commissioners.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he wen not help
thinking that this clause would lead to very great embar-
rassment and confusion, as there was every desire en the
part of the government to facilitate general valuation.
The clause was then withdrawn,
On the motion of Mr. Banison the following proviso was
added to clause A :
Peereed aim, that where any person chargeable to any electoral
riblendrll have received relief, and shall cease to be relieved. and
shalltbammillse.within the period of twelve month.' again begin to
Nola vellef, Sea last-mentioned relief shall be chargeable on the
simisral Arbon to which such person was in the tint butanedmieltaliGAN then moved the addition of the following
previewer rare A :
Provided always that the cost for the relief of the destitu.e poor
who hag me hoe model in the union where each relief is given for
the log those previous to TteCi•IIII such relief, shall be
fwd mil awarding to the provisions of an act prises) in
thews& et mend Mejesty, intituled 'An act to make fur-
ther Ise the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland.'
Vidto sifter a short discussion.
espert was then agreed to, and the bill ordered to be
and ad a third time on Monday, at 12 u'eleck.
gliCit t read
then stood suspended till 5 o'clock.
The house re-assembled at 5 o'clock.
THE ROYAL PAVILION (BRIGHTON) BILL.
Ila reply to a question from Capt. Pecliacc,
Mr. HATTER said that this bill would be postpsned
retil Tuesday next.
THE SCOTCH BILLS.
On the motion that the house at its rising should stollen
till Monday,
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the government
i intended to persevere with the important public bills relating
to Scotland. He could assure them that it appeared to be
almost the unanimous feeling of Scotch members that these
measures should be postp tiled till next session.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the govemmint proposed that
the Scotch hills should come on on Monisy, and they would
then ascertain whi thee or not the feet was as had been stated.
(Hear, hear.) He had been told that several members for
Scotland thought that these important bills ought to be pro.
seeded with.
Mr. HUME said that as members would be engagel in
committee, it would not be fair to proceed at 12 o'clock.
Mr. M'NEILL could not allow that opportunity to pus
without noticing the hurried manner in which Omit bills had
Men pressed fat ward. So many pi trions against the bills had
been presented, he hop d the government would postpone
these measures until neat session, when they might he more
di liberateh diseased.
Mr. DUNCAN joined in this recommenlstion.
Mr. ELLICE felt bound to say that he hal received seve-
ral petitions against the measures, and none in forintr of
them. At the same time, after giving the best considera-
tion to the subject, ha bad not been able to came to the
same conclusions as his constituents.
The LORD ADVOCATE was very reluctant to press
bills to the ineonvenienee of members belonging to Scotland.
These bills had, however, twice passed the House of Lords;
and he drought it of the utmost importance to Scotland that
they should become low. He was perfectly aware that nu-
merous petitions had been presented against them; bat Ise
had not been so inattentive to the subject as not to have
analysed Orr picitiene, end he should be she to show the
house that both the peti. ions themselves, and the grounds
on which they rested, were insignificant and worthier.
Mr. COWAN was perfectly free either to omen or to
support the bills to which the noble lord refire I'd He had
heard with th geet the noble lord's expression of indifference
if nit eontonst4.with regard to the petitions ; for although
many of the camplaints were, no doubt, uareasonable, yet IN
a whole thee were entitled to consideration.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said the hos. member for Pontefract
kid a notion on the paper for nada, next, which preceded