The Express.
London, England, 1848-07-04 00:00:00

SLIGO ELECTION.
Mr. 0. GORE moved that the petition of John Delany,
which was presented on the 18th of May list, complaining
of certain proceedings for effecting& compromise in the cue
of the Sligo election petition, be referred to the committee
of privileges.
Sir G. GREY thought the inquiry a very proper one. He
had been informed that the particular question involved had
not been gone into by the committee.
Mr. V. SMITH, in stforene,, to his formes swgzstion that
the evidence oefore the Sligo committee need not be printed,
thought that at least the printing of the evidence might be
suspended, until the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. O. Gore)
who had said he believed there was something in it valuable
for soother purpose should point out what portiou he wished
to have printee'.
Mr. 0. GORE had not as yet read the evidence.
Mr. BANKES suggested that it might be sufficient to re-
fee the evidence to the committee of privileges.
This suggestion having been adopted and acted upon,
Mr. V. SMITH then moved that the order for printing
the evidence be diacharged.—Ordered.
PENINSULAR MEDALS.
Col. DUN NE asked whether the survivors of the troops
engaged in covering the operations of the row
ate is employed
in the storming of St. Soh ,stian, were to participn the
diatributiou 01 rnetla's lately ordered ?
Mr. F. MAULE said that the survivors out of these
actually in the trenches, engaged in the work of storming,
would receive medals.
SUGAR DUTIES.
The house then went into committee on thes'
enitdm- duties.
which
Alter enure conversation re,pecng an ammt
Mr. Bagshairi• had given notice of, but which had not been
printed in time to come regularly before the committee on
this occasion,
The CHAIRMAN put the resolution, that on sugar or mo-
lasses, the growth and produce of any British po.scssion
which the importation of toreign sugar ii prohibited, Icing
imported Iron, any soch possession, there shall be imposed
be duties following, that is to say

ihe fluff( s following, thistli2l.72_________
and • grunt and Wow and
after sth after 3th after 3th Front
July. 'l6, • July. '49, July, '5O, and after
to to to sth July,
3July, '49, 3July, '36, sJuly, '5l, 11351.
inclusive. nicht:ave. inclusive.
d. s. a. i a.
Candy, brown, or white'
double retitled surar,,
or augur equal in
quality to double re- IS 0 16 6 If
11n.41, for every cwt. ...• 6
Other rained augar, or
sugar rendered by any
prove" equal iu quality
thereto, foe every ena.• 11 4 16 0 14 6 13 4
White clayen wear, or
sugar rendered by any
process NU in qu.eity
to white eltyed, not
be retitled, for every
cwt.g .............. 13 2 14 0 12 10 11 SI
21 ossos.ulo, or any other
sugar not being equal:
in quality to whitel
11 0 10 0
cloyed, for every cwt...{ 13 0

thought fit to depart from the law of 1846. He had thought
that law a final question, and he hoped that hereafter they
would never have to discuu the question, except as one
of public revenue. But for every word that had been said
about the revenue of the state ten had been spoken about
the revenue of private individuals. West India distress
wu not • question that ought to be discussed
in • debate upon the sugar duties. The West
Indian was not the only distressed interest iu this
country. Had they had no otber bankruptcies—no other
failures? (Loud ironical cheers.) Ile understood that
cheer, but he was merely stating • fact. (Renewed cheers.)
But did the commercial men of -England cone to that house,
as the West Indian did, in form pouperis? The cotton-
spinners of Lancashire alone had suffered last year I tyres as
great as the value of all the produce of the West Indies. But
they hadlout of their capital, msintained their labourers,
and they had not come down there seeking rebel and crying
out every night for additional protection. (Hear, hear.)
There was a great deal, too, about the testimony as to Weo
Indian distress, that he frankly owned he entirely dis-
trusted. The parties examined by the committee were
only interested parties, and they based all their calculations
of their hues upon very ample estimates as to the cost of
their production. "Remunerative prices!" Why, what
had the landlords told them ab ,ut the prices.at which alone
they could grow corn? (Hear, hear.) All that sort of
evidence had been sufficiently disproved ; and surely they
must allow an ample per centime upon the evidence of those
who cam before a committee that never saw • sugar cane
at all, and told them at what price alone they were able to
produce a cwt. of sugar. (Cheers.) Why, in the blue book
he held in his hand, ho found witnesses who gave evidence
cuictroytchoencceusilvaefb
lerlr-ic-e".Tlie:rl;ei:..2wrrwehmicehnfi';hdo liiCirthea;
could grew sugar at 4s. a cwt. ; others who declared they
could not produce it at certain periods under 161. • cwt. Now,
he owned to a preference for official evidence,and he was rather
pleased to have it in his power to quote Lord Harris. Lord
Hurts said that in " the best managed estates" (ironical
cheers)—well, they were not there to protect bad manage-
ment—(much cheering) "on the best managed estates,
(said Lord Harris) planters cou:d produce sugar at 10s. a
cwt." (Hear, hear.) Well, that was just the amouit of
protection they proposed to give to the West Indians. The
suggestion from the other aide, therefore, was nothing leas
than to give the planters their sugar fur nothing. What
they proposed was to let him have his suear as if he had
utoltri it, or ae if it was given him. Why, surely it was
monstrous under such circumstances to ask for protection for
the West Indians out of the hard earnings o the industrious
classes in England. (Cheers.) A right hon. gentlemen
opposite, thought that the West Indies tied n just claim, but
he doubted how we were to pay it. Now he (Mr.
Gibson) took just the converse position. He denied
the claim, but, if he admitted it, he should be prepared to
say that it ought at all hazards and sacrifices to be paid.
(Hear, hear.) But he denied the claim. The West India
proprietors had had 20,000,0001. from us for their slaves.
That sum represented the capital of 800,0001. per annum.
For the lest nine years the Went ludics had exported about
21 million tons of sugar yearly. The interest, therefore,
amounted to a bounty of about (M. 441. a cwt. on every cwt.
of sugar exported since the paseieg of the Emancipation Act.
(Cheers.) It he deducted this bounty from the expense, it
would be, according to Lord Harris, no les: than h elf the
cost of production. Take the cue of Jamaica. Jamaica, on
en average of the last nine years, had exported 731,039 ewes.
iof sugar a year. The proprietors of that island had received
6,109,0001. in the shape of compensa ion. Why, the iroereet
' on that sum amounted to • bounty of no less than 73. on
every cwt. of sugar exported from the colony. The house
had nothing to do with mortgages or marriage settlements.
In 1830, during the period of slavery, it was stated that the
cost of production of a cwt. of sugar in our West India
colonies was 16s. aa., less by 51. 441. than was stated by
many competent witnesses to be the coat of production now.
As to the money compensation now proposed, how was it to
tie applied to the case of persons who hal mostly purchased
estates is the West Indies at nominal prices? -eVere these
parties to set up a claim to compensation in respect of these
estates, as though they had been proprietors in them at a
time when great dividends were realised from this source?
(Hear) It was raid that free labour could not compete with
slave labour; the production of indigo &Horded a proof to the
contrary, for it was well known that free-labour indigo had
entirely driven slave-labour indigo out of the market. (Hear,
hear.) He denied that the slave trade nad increased. The
speech of hie hon. colleague had thoroughly disproved the
allegation that such was the case. He protested against the
proposition that our foreign trade was to be proscribed, or
even crippled, to suit the purposes of our eolonial agriculture.
It was out of the question to suppose that by any legislation
I they could do that for the colony's which the colonists would
not do for teemselves. As to the slave trade, public opinion
would in the end put it down throughout the world, as
public opinion had put it down in the British dominions.
Meanwhile our great principle should be to do our best in
attending to our own real busffiess.
Mr. T. BARING said that everything that occurred
showed him the danger of sudden and sweeping changes.
He coirended hat the case of the British West Indian cell).
Dies pre ented an entire exception to the rules even of the
' most rigid free trailer, for our West India colonies were
suffering, not so much from the ordinary nature of things as
from the difficulties which had been thrown in their way by
imperial legislation. The right hon. gentleman over the
way repudiated the proceedings of the committee, of which he
himself had been a member in constant attendance, and said
that no reliance was to be placed upon their reported evi-
dence or their stated views. Yet the right hon. gentleman's
friend (the hon. member fir Westbury) had moved a dis-
tinct resolution that ;he West Indian colonies were in a Mate
of great distress, requiring a decide I remedy lie protested
against the mode in which hon. gentlemen opposite seemed
to treat the West Indian colonies and their into rests, as sub-
ject altogeteer to the varying circumstances of party contest.
The proposition of the government was to give a protection
of 7s. to British sugar, but between the value of British
sugars anal foreign there was a difference of 2s. 4d. a cwt.,
which would reduce the net protection to 4s. Bd. But, inde-
pendently of ail these calculations, the question was, would
the propositions of the government afford a real and substan-
tial relief to the plant, rs Would the measure restore con-
fidence in the colonies ? So far from it, there was hardly •
man there who thought they could struggle on under it.
Even the les. duty would hardly effect any considerable
relief, although it certainly would enable the planters
to carry on cultivation to a greater extent than under the
government propositions. But the protection offered of 45. 81.
was only to endure fur one year. Nothing was more dis-
treseing than a continued state of depression, and one which
annually would become worse ; he felt that this would be
the ease under the pr posed rate of duties, and in voting for
the amendment of the hon. member for Droitwich he was
only actuated by the sincere belief that the govern-
ment proposition was not soequate to the emergency.
The colonists would not look at it as a manifesta-
tion of a real desire to help them. They would
say that the government had called to their re-
lief a gentleman skilful in dealing with figures, and
by his essisteure, they attempted to throw dust in their
es es. (Hear, hear.) The government looked at the colo-
nies not as they really were, but as the Colonial-office
wished them to be. (Hear, hear.) Was it satisfactory that
the measure should be regarded by the colonists as a party
proceeding ? Would it be looked at by them as having pro-
ceeded from the fair convictions of the house, when it was
only passed by • majority of fifteen votes? And was
it teought that the sugar consumer would be benefited by
the change ? Would he not rather be injured ? Was not
the sugar cultivation falling off in the West Indies, and
how much easier was it not to destroy than to testers ?
What was wanted was not temporary but permanent cheap-
ness of sugar. As the right hon. member for Coventry had
said, the question was not one of a penny a pound cheaper
sugar for the consumer, but whether the sugar colonies were
to be destroyed: anti it would become • question hereafter,
whether the colonists would not come to parliament and
claim, not protection, for that was no longer an English
word, but the means of maintaining order and their social
institutions. For all the reasons he had etated, he should
give his humble support to the amendment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that having already spoken on
the former evening's debates, he should trouble the com-
mittee only for • very few minutes ; but he could not let the
hon. geetlemau's observations pass without some remarks.
He must say he was glad to have a proposition set before the
committee in opposition to that of the government. The
hon. member (?dr. T. Baring) bad suggested views and attri-
buted motives to the government which were discreditable
I to them, and he had moreover stated that they had not the
interests of the colonists in view. The hon. member's in-
fluence and his abilities were such as to induce the colonists
Ito believe his statements. But if the hen. gentleman's state-
ments were true, the way to benefit the calonists would
have been to have made a proposal which all
would have agreed in, and not to endeavour to collect into
one body all the discordant opinions, and muster them
against the government propositions. It appeared to him
that the course taken by the opposite party ought to have
teen quite different to that pursued. They ought first to
have discerned the questien whether the house would go
into committee at all, and then the amendment of the hon.
member for Manchester would have been discussed and dia.
posed of. Then they would have taken into consideration
the government propositions, and the hon. baronet opposite
would have made his present amendment. But they
began by first discussing the honourable baronet's
amendments, and afterwards that of the hon. member
for Manchester ; and now they came to the consideration of
the second amendment of the hon. baronet the member for
Droitwich, for substituting a 10r. duty instead of the one
proposed by the government. Now, let him state what he
eesaidered to be the disadvantages of that proposal. It could
not be sound, in the first place, that it would risk no lets
en amount of revenue than 960,0001., for the hon. baronet's
calculations on this head were all conjectural ; and let him
orb whether it was wise, so soon after a serious deficiency had
been made up, to risk nearly • million of revenue in this
way? The hon. baronet's proposal was to impose a 103. duty
tar the period of six years. (No.) What, then, was the
bon. baronet's proposal ?
Sir. J. PAKINOTON said his proposal was to impose a
10s. duty for three years, but that he was Lot disposed to
enter into any speculations as to the puled to which that
duty ought to be ultimately extended.
Lord J. RUSSELL.—But that would leave the whole
question of the sugar duties in a most unsatisfactory state,
for nothing is to be more deprecated than uncertainty in the
operation of duties. (Hear, bear.) The proprietors might
then say we will work during the three years of protection
and then give up cultivation and abandon our estates.
What would be the state of the colonies? It might be
very beneficial for those who have invested their property in
the West Indies, but not at all encouraging to those who
wish sums' to the introduction of (tee labour. There
would be two serious risks attending the adoption of the
hon. baronet's amendment. One is the risk of losing
960,0001. of annual revenue, and the other founded
on the state of uncertainty in which the colo-
nies would be left at the end of three years, or the loss
which ear years of protection would indict on the consumer.

These appear to me to be sufficient reasons for rejecting the
proposal of the hon. baronet. The hon. mernher ear
Huntingdon asks why has not the government proposed a
middle course ? why refuse to do so merely for the silo of
consistency? Why, if we wished to preserve a reputation
for consistency our coune would have been to stand by
the law of 1846. (Hear, hear.) That would have been
our course, and we should net have been reproached se
we hare been for abandoning that measure, and the pria.
ciple it involves. What we have endeavoured to de was
to adopt the very course which the hon. member for Hun-
tingdon recommends. We have eneleavoured to adopt a
middle course, sensible of its inconvenicnce, not at the
same time sensible that we should satisfy the West
India interest, and knowing also that in deputing
from the measure of 1546 we should incur great
comp aints from those who were satisfied with that
measure. Exposed to there disadvantage r, open to these
objection., we have proposed a measure which we thought
&cm .ntageous to all pasties; rat whatever faults or
omissions it may exhibit, it is one which I submit is better
comparatively than that which has learn proposed by the
hon. baronet. (Cheers, and cries of "divide.")
Mr DISRAELI said he hop. 4 that as he had not ham
taken any part in the present d bate he should be allowed
to occupy the attention of the house far a few moments, espe-
cially so he intended to confine himself strictly to the ques-
tion immediately before the house. (Hear.) He must say,
with reference to the two positions of the noble lord —test 11
regarded revenue, and secondly as to the unsittseeeee,
nature of the hon. member fir Droitwich's
with respect to the first he did Pee the experic net they
had had of the 7,:.;„;,.. lord's calculations of revenue should
—.e hie opinion on that point a matter of very vital inner.
Lance—(a laugh); aed as to the proposition of his hon.
frig nd, he admitted that it was capered to the objection of
being only of a temporary character. But what on the other
hand, was the proposition of ministers? Was it not open to
the same objection as was applied to the scheme of his hon.
friend ? (Ilisr, hear.) His hon. frieno's scheme was a step
in the right direction, and held out a great- r hope of stability
aed certainty than that of the noble lord. He certaialy
thought that the noble lord's proposition,aft roll the inquiry
and eiseuesion which had taken place, was anything bat
satisfactory. And when they had the right hoe.
member for Tamworth, who had had, from peculiar
circumstances, his attention directed to the affairs of our
sugar colonies for many. year., telling them that the com-
mittee which had investigated the subject in 1818 had thrown
a flood of light upon it, he thought that it did not become
the house, or ray of its:members, to depreciate that irquiry
or discussion. There was one point on which they were all
agreed, except the hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies—
namely, that our colonies in the West Indies were in aa un-
precedented suite 01 depression.
Mr. HAWES.—I admitted that they were so.
Mr. DISRAELL—Perhaps the Hon. Under Secretary had
become convinced in the course of the discussion. (A laugh.)
It was also agreed that the hon. baronet the member for
Droitwich had advanced a proposition to the house which
was in unison with the report of the committee, to the effect
that the depression of our colones had arisen from their in.
ability to compete wish slavedabour; and what the house
was then called upon to do was, to give them such
an amount of assistance as would enable them to
compete with slave labour. (Hear, hear) The committee
had decided by a majority that a protection of 10.. per cwt.
should be given ; and that decision was founded oil a long,
patient, and minute investigation. The right hon. member
fur Manchester had said that they all knew how these com-
mittee inquiries were conducted, that certain leading qui-
teems were asked, with a view of getting such aeswers as
would bear out the views of the questioner. Now he (Mr.
Disraeli) did not think that at all a lair di seripti of the
proceedings of the committee, the more especially us his
right hon. friend had himself attended and cross e eamiaed
all the witnesses, being moreover at the time a meinher of
the government. Why, there was one witness who was so
much in unison with the views of the Colonial office, that
he was called Lord Grey's witness. (Laughter.) That gen.
demon was examined for 3 hours and 25 minutes, in chief by
a member of the government, and hie business beiorethe com-
mittee was to substantiate the principles, the acknowledged
principles of the Colonial office, namely, that free labour
could compete eueoersfully with slave labour, that
the great source of West India misfortune was abeenteeism•,
and that the only remedy for those misfortuni s would
be the repeal of the navigation laws. Cheers.) He men-
tioned these facts to show that the inquiry of the committee
bad not been merely a hole and corner investigation, but
that the subject matter was investigated bores fide, and
that every shade of opinion was properly represented.
If, there fore, a body of evidence obtained under such cir-
cumstances had induced the committee to arrive at a conclu-
sion very different from that of the government, it was the
legitimate consequence of such evidence ; and he begged it
to be understood that the representatives of government on
the committee had done their best to substantiate the viewso
the Colonial office as be had before indicred. The gentleman
whose examination in chief was given to prove that free labour
could compete with slave labour, admitted on his cruss-u-
-sminrion that he had on his own estate produced free-
lab .ur sugar at an expense of 521. per ton. (Hear, hear.)
The same gentleman was called on to pr..ve that absenteeism
was a curse, and he ultimately proved that every resident
proprietor was insolvent, and that all the sugar was produced
by absentees. (Cheers and laughter.) He reerred
to the evidence of Mr. Peckwood (as we understood), wbe
was also to prove the third point of the Colonial-
office creed, namely, that the relief for colonial grievances
was to be found in a repeal of the navigation laws ; but his
evidence did not at all lead to that conclusion. Afterall
these witnesses, it had been said that the sugar planting
committee had acted like the navigation committee—(a
laugh)—had heard only the evidence on one side, and then
' separated without agreeing to any report. (Hear,
hear.) He deseed the truth of that assertion. The com-
mittee had patiently heard all the evidence worth listening to.
and PO far from shirking reports, he believed that there
never was a committee which bad produced a greater num-
ber. (Hear, hear.) Well, it was proved to the satisfaction
of that committee that our colonies could not compete
with the 'lave colonies; and it was also shown
moss satisfactorily that the difference between them
amounted to little less than 16s. the cwt. Cer-
tainly the hon. member for Westbury did, on a subsequent
occasion, challenge the accuracy of the calculations; hut to hie
(Mr. Disraeli's) appreh nsion, the hon. member did not ap-
pear to be so happy ut on sugar as he generally was on other
subjects. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) lie c odd never for-
get the tremendous statistics with which on an early night
in the session the hon. member bad come down, as re-
garded beet-root sugar. (Hear, hear.) They had not
heard much of beet-root sugar during the pretest
debate. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It was not
alleged now that this country might be supplied
with the beetroot sugar of the continent. But it was said
that it was unjust to prove that 16s. was the required
amount of protection, and then to de.nand only 10s. It
' should be remembered, however, that all the calculations M
the committee were made before any of the promised
changes had been announced, and before the reduction now
expected in the price of labour was known. If they had
asked for 16s. they would have been subcrquently told " You
forget that labour will be' 5 pet cent. cheaper. You forget
the alteration of the rum duty, and the proposed immigra-
tion of labourers." The committee had anticipated all
these objection's, and in proposing 10s. had given credit for
the items. Well, then, the colonies being in the
position which had been universally acknowledged, and the
sum proposed being conceded to be a just and moderate
wotectiun, he thought that the government were hound to
concede it on their own admission. With regard to the
general scope of the government measures, he admitted
that they were of a remedial character, but wily to
such an extent as to qualify the blunders of
1846 (Hear, hear.) If it were of advantage that
free negroes should be conveyed to the colonies instead
of to Sierra Leone, why had that not been done in 1816? lie
said, then, that immigration was only a remedy fur previous
blunders. (Hear, hear.) It was said then that great bene-
fits were to be derived from a new mode of clauffication as
to clayed and muscovado sugar. Why had that not bees
done in 1846 ? These were blunders again. (Hear, hear.)
Again, half a million was to be given ; but it was onlytwo
months since it had been calculated that 170,0001. would be

sufficient.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—Daly for
two colonies. (lieu, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI.—Oh, it was said that the others did not
require it. But now it seemed it was necessary to grant
670,0001. Could that grant be looked upon as otherwise
than a remedy for the blunders of 1846? (Hear, hear.)
Something bad been said as to the engsgerothts
which had been entered into with our colonies
at the time of emancipation. He had never alleged that a
contract is the vulgar sense had been entered into. He was
willing to admit that no such contract existed. PIA
hear.) But would any one assert that if the West Indians
had not expected a continuance of their market they wou:d
so quietly have accepted the terms they were offered?
It was the principle of protection to the colonies that de-
stroyed the government in 1541—the principle which then
went to the country, and which it was thought was then de-
cided. And were they now to tura round and tell the c do-
nnts that this was all a delusion—that the phraws and
solemn pledges then made, and the words sugar and free
trade, were merely cries as evanescent as the mottoes on
their election banners ? (Hear, hear.) The right lien. gen-
tleman (Mr. Gibson) opposed the propoeitionbecause it went
to support the interests of the colonies and was advent to
the foreign trade. No one knew the importance of the
trade of the Brazils—no one had urged on the house the ne-
cessity for a treaty of commerce with the Brazils—more the the
right hon. gentleman. But he would not ask the right hon.
gentleman for a treaty of commerce with the Brazils. That
was a new subject, and he intended ere long to bring it be-
fore the house—(bear, hear)—but be would ask, where wee
the Brazilian trade which we were told over and over again
was worth more than that of all our colonies together ?
It had been said, if you assist the colonies, why not assist the
manufacturers of Manchester and Bolton ? The reason was
that they had had the monopoly of legislation, and though
he believed they were in as disastrous a state as the colonies,
it was because they had departed from the sound principles of
commercial legislation themselves that they were in their pre-
sent position but in the case of the colonies they had, without
any fault of their own, been made the victims et our legidation.
But after the course which had been taken, after the adop-
tion of free trade principle, be was surprised to hear the
right hon. gentleman, as one of the advocates of this prin-
ciple, now come forward and say that our own manufactures'
had as much right to be protected as the colonies. (" Ob,'
and " divide.') With regard to the Mauritius, as showing
the effect of our legislation in that colony, he had a !tate-
went from the books of Messrs. Reid and Irving, whirls, in
justice to those gentlemen, he would read. It appeared that
in August, 1843, the balance of account aginnee
their principal agent for their estates in the Mau-
ritius was 78,0001., after an immense, a lavish, but
a justifiable expenditure in the improvement of
their property. In the same month in 1845, ayear after the
act of 1844, for admitting foreign free-lobo= sugar, the he'