The Express.
London, England, 1851-03-12 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 12, 1851.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

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new, on the appointment and promotion of officers in the
Indian army loot been aduptNl, or sea, eimtermilated, in
conformity with the system of examination 4.f officers slaw
adopted in the British army; and whather the subjechaofl
each examination would be laid before Ana Was t •
Mr. WILSON said that fur some tince-Pllnt all ofidirC
entering the Indian 110,iCe had undelaussasaminit,ioa,
and that within the last three months is risnalation hattbieria
to
establi,hed whereby a strong' that. be was lat
aniiiwahit
these officers, and that all oft were eet to that
test. (Hear.)
METROPOLIS BUILDINGS BILL.
Mr. LUSHINGTON expressed
paw. y that this bill
would not by hastily discussed, particularty at a late hour

HOUSE OF LORDS.—TresnAT, 11.txcli 11.
The Luau CH ANceLlarti took hie seat at o'clock.
PETITIONS PRIISEN TEO.
PAPAL AGUILLMION.-11.1 the lie.hok, of NOILWICIL
Dom Northunalwrbutd ; and Lord STANLEY, from N'or-
-4sl,ttn,t P.t141 atgriasien.
Away enr eaAt. Histniss.—Cy Lord STANLEY, from
Wakefield and a place in Suffolk, complaining of agricul-
tural distress and fret trade.
Jawten lit,..usittrß Lord STANLEY, front a
plaee not heard, against the • uf Jews into parlia-
ment.
Li.OrTIIOLD TINUUIt. —By the Muis of LANS
DOWNE, from Bath, for the tnfranch.,emcnt of copy-
bolds.
PAPAL AfiGRESSION.
Earl lITZWILLIAM hail been entrusted with a peti-
tion Henn Cork against the Ecele-instical Ilia, which
he could not lay on the tables, IP tan.. that lell hail not yet
le
their lordships' bower but he differed altogether
Iran the opinions calocsosl by the petitioners, and he
wished to state hi. en., on the subject of that bill, which
the ordinary channels of information (to which they could
snit shut their eye.) told them had been materially alts nil.
He was ;Loan., iron the source. he had alluded to, that a
moasure had been introduced into the other house for pre-
venting tie ie.oiniption 01 titles by the newly-appointed
Roman atholic lle highly approved of that mea-
sure, but thieight it would be render, d quite ineffectual by
the rourse whie.i it apps-anil the government had taken
with referent— to this dl :and he could out believe, with
the sidatinieuts which he knew their lordships entertained
on thi sob jei t, that Hoc would give their are-ent to such a
measure. 111-hoped, `if their lordships legislated at all,
they would legislate cite Wally. (Hear, hear.) lie was
sorry to leant that the I.:AUNIA likely to give effect to the
measure .eft• to be omitted. lour hundred members of
the other how., voted fur the bill tog:Oust the sixty or seventy
who voted against it, and therefore it was clear what the
Feeling of the other house and of the people of this country
was 011 OW subject, and he was se.tunished to hear that
the main features of the measure were abandoned by
them who brought it forward. if the clauses proposed to be
°nutted were atrandoued the measure would he inoperative,
and tin gi.lature would be txposisl tu ridicule and con-
tempt. (Ili hear.) it wan to be lain, anal that this
course hail Iran taken, and that parliament and the eteeu-
titre woual this. disappoint the expectations of the country
at large, .11.1 gee to the catholic hierarchy that power
which the bill sought to deprive them of. (Hear, hear.)
He oohed to ask whether it was true that this course was
10 ire perostil in) Ile could hardly belicte it ; but if it
wan, it might well recite the apprehensions of the people.
11 no ineitoin, had been introduced, it would have been •
doff riot Omar, hut the ripe tuitions of the people had been
tacited and, to soma extent, satedied, by the introduction
of a bill which partly tact the evil, and which was now
Vibe r.sluceil to a mere clause, declaring the assuniptiou of
the tide. illegal. (Hear, hr are
The Marlins of LA:43IW )mrsE, in reply to th, ques-
tion 01 the noble earl, had no hesitation in stating that
curtain alts rations had been announced as intended to be
mode ir the lull in opirstem. How far three alterations
wool.; stbse the preaciplc of the measure was a queetion
who their lord.haps would have to entertain alien the
bill, .0 altered (41141 nn rup• could Usti with what other alte-
ration.) reached their liirdshilei. house. Ile could only say
that he theorist the alterations which hail been referred to
did nit mat, ',ally affect the principle of the bill, which he
thought lio noble Intuit misapprehended.
FIIAWILLIANI ...Oil thy alteration% might nut
affect the principle of the hell, but they rendered it utterly
inerfietise. (Hear, hear.)
MEItCANTILE MARINE.
Lord couliEsTEkt gave notice that he should, on
Titania:ly nest, ..k whether it was the intention of the go-
vernment to introduce ray measure for the consolidation et
the law relative to the mercantile marine.
Their leredshipi then, at a quarter before six o'clock,
adjourned.

that evening.
Loral SEI MOl.ll said he would postpone it until Monday
next, when be would fix a day for htinging it on.
ASSESSMENT ANDLAW OF SETTLEMENT.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY asked whether the President of
the poor law board could inform the house when the bill
for the more equitable assessment to the relief of the poor
and the alteration of the law of settlement would come on ?
Mr. BAINES said that in the present state of public
Mishima it was impossible to answer the question.
EXTRAMUItAL INTERMENTS.
Mr. MOWATT said the right hen. baronet the home
secretary must be aware that great anxiety was felt through-
out the metropolis respecting the bill of last session for in-
terments out of large towns. Ile wished to know when the
bill would he carried out, and what were the difficulties
standing in the way of its being acted upon ?
Sir G. filtEY said the change effected by the bill had
been • very extensive one, and that many preliminary
measures were neceseary before that change could he made.
The attention of the Boon' of Health was directed to the
subject. and they had made arrangements with a view to
the general adoption of the provisions of the bill. They
must, however, obtain the metropolitan cemeteries in order
that they might be made cemeteries under the act. Nego-
tiations with that view had been going on with the different
companies, with some of whom he was afraid that there
was no great prospect of coming to any voluntara. arrange-
mint Still, it was only right that the board should have
made the attempt; and, if the attempt eventually failed,
' the requi.itc notices would he given, and matters would go
to • jury or be settled by arbitration. The desire, however,
was to bring the act into operation at the earliest possible
period. (Rear, hear.)
W(X./DS AND FORESTS.
Lord DI:NCAN then rose to submit the following
motion, of which he hail given notice :—" Whereas
it appears by returns laid before this house, and before
the select committee of wood., forests, works, &e., that
daring • period of seven years (from 1842-3 to 1848-9)
the gross income derived from the powiessione and land
revenues of the Crown has amounted to 2,446,78)1. and that
out of this sum only 771,0001. has been paid into thel public
account at the Exchequer; and whereas during the same
period it appears that a sum amounting to 1,672,7861. has
been withheld for charges of collection end management,
and for other expenses charged upon the said revenues, it
is expedient, with a view to place the expenditure of this
branch of the public service under the more immediate
control of parliament, that the grins income derived from
the said revenues should hereafter he paid into the Etche-
quer, and that the necessary expenses for collecting and
managing the same should he voted by this house, upon esti-
mates to lie annually .uhari it tell to peril:Linen t her Majesty's
government." lie had most anxiously expected that a simi-
lar motion would have been made by his noble friend at the
bead of the government; and if his noble friend had shown
any disposition to deal with the subject, he (Lord Duncan)
should not have been bold enough to come forward with
the present proposition. But, having sat as chair-
man of a committee of that house on the sub-
ject of the woods and forests, and being well
acquainted with many irregularities in that department, he
should have been wanting in his public duty if he had
failed in bringing forerun' the motion on the present aces-
lien. (Hear.) Now it would be in the recollection of the
house that his noble friend at the head of the government
had last year proposed to bring in a bill on this subject.
Tho bill was brought in and laid on the table; it was, how-
ever, postponed from week to week, and at the end of the
seanon was coneigned to the "tomb of all the Capulets,"
whither so many oilier bills had been consigned before it. At
the commencement of the present session he (Lord Dun-
ll
can) had taken the hherty of asking a qui a-
tom with regard to the renewal of that bill.
Having received an unsatisfactory answer from his
noble friend, he now brought forward his own proposition,
which was calculated to apply a remedy to the evils of
which he complained. hear.) Now, he should wish
to recall to recollection the year 1848—a year in which vari-
ous committees were appointed, with regard to various por-
tion. of the revenue. Committees were then appointed
with reganl to the anoy, navy, Ordnance, and miscellaucoustr
I Coutes ; but one of the moat important provineeeof that house
was to institute an inquiry into the revenue of the Woods and
'Fort-eta, which appertained to the crown, and to her Ma-
jesty, and which were placed under the guardianship of the
House of Commons. He had moved fur a committee on
the subject. A select committee was appointed. That
I select committee placed hint in the chair, though they might
'may have selected a more experienced member. lie hail
never had an opportunity of serving on a public. committee
before ; but he thought it his duty during that inquiry to
I visit various portions of thole domains of the crown, and
be was thus mudded to bring forward in the committee-
room up stairs and to call attention to various irregularities
which hail escaped uotice. Now, he desired it to be dis-
tinctly unilenitood that he wished to make no attack on hie
noble friend at the head of the Woods and Forests (Lord
Seymour?... lit believed that noble lord had done his best to
remedy t varime.irregularities; but his wish im this occasion
was, not to bring any public charge against u public de-
partment, but simply to vindicate a great principle, and to
raise the question,—whether it was for the advancement of
her Majesty's service to expend the public money without
the control of parliament. (Hear.) The control he wished
to see exereinal was not only over the office of Woods,
but over government, for many of the charges in
this department of the Woods was the same us those iu
the miscellaneous estimates; and, therefore, if they wilted
to incur au expense without the knowledge of parliament,
they had only to defray it out of the land revenue, and omit
it altogether in the miscellaneous estimates. The revenue was
3.10,000/., and the expenditure 192,0001.; a sum of 192,0001.
spent in the management of a revenue of 3.10,01.10/. (Hear,
hear.) The land revenues of the crown were derived from
three sources 'Ube first was household property in London
(in Whitehall, St. James s, Itagent'a-park, Tower, &c.? ;
leasehold estates in different parts of the kingdom; tee
farm rents, unworn, mince, parks, and other property in the
immediate oceopatiou of her Majesty; the Rolls estate,
and several her snuffler brunches of revenue in Eng-
land and Wale., Scotland and Ireland, cominitted by
parliament to the custody of the Commissioners of Woods
and Forests. 'Elie great national bailiff over all this
property was his bun. friend the Secretary for the Trea-
sury, and coneidering the demands on his time, however
pint his respect for him, he (Lord Duncan) could not but
protest against his having so much property committed to
his management. With regard to much of this property,
when inquiry was made Ly the committee over which
he had presided as to the rental, the answer re-
turned was that there was no rental. There was
no rental from the property in Wales, in Ireland. in
Scotland, or the Isle of Man ; and fee farm rents, which
had been given over to the commissioners in 1834, and
valued by Mr Wilken at 1,0001., had never been collect,
and the rental was lust. The second branch of the crown
property was the royal parks of St. James's, Hyde-park, and
others is various parts of the metropolis, the produce of
which woo 11,026 i., and the gross expenditure, 61,729/.
(Hear, hear.) The third portion was the royal forests, 17
in number, comprising the New Forest in Ilammhire of
60,000 acres; the Forest of Dean in Glouccatershire, about
'NAM acres; and others, containing altogether about
1111,000 acres. This property had been valued at two
millions, with an income of 36,3931., and an ex-
penditure of 37,6811., there being an excess of ex-
penditure in a property of two millions. (Hear,
hear.) Was it not monstrous that that property was pro-
ducing nothing to the national Exchequer ? (Hear, hear.)
But let not the house think that this money was not com-
ing out of the public maw. This property was made over
to parliament to pay the civil li t—(hear, hear)—and if it
was left iu such a condition as to be without preluce, the
house was to blame to allow it. Lord Duncan gave a short
history of this source of thO ancient royal revenues and its
existing system of maatagenicat, and he then pointed out
the great irregularities in the system itradf, as well as iu the
mode of keeping the accounts, which had been discovered
by the select committee over which he had presided. The
tint is it oci. ea a mined was the Earl of Carlisle, thou chief com-
missioner of the woods and forests. The committee had
not pnweeded far in its labours before they became aware
that oneaderable confusion and irregularity existed in the
keeping of the accounts. In order to show this he would
read a copy of a letter from Mr. Anderson, who had been
appointed to look into the accounts. lie said—
.h • fe ea art state aeopunts I. as knows the ledgers of the
&par meet have sal; b en completely posted sad b arced to the
fist of March, In 8 ; all the Winn saitairqueat to rut date ire dr&
c int in eanscparnee of the maim o mi..i in of the roman• of the
agents or .te.mte MUMMA of the department. I need net twirl out
th t such liadato a seect the whole tra it. 'be baits for he lest
nine pars. See sec taste hare orb ham made up art tramonitced
to the eorrenummers of audit or ,I-=nation up to the 31at of
March,king an saves ed five years. Thin. arena mil-
e mice Indians that the system upon which the acceun • are ars fa
puritans in that Amp ally and celeritt which are eweidial to eke
imuoi r &sone' of barano— ; but it it sea defective in other reap cu.
la addition to mole iced transfer between secant., Ostastoistat by
the temp...rosy it, ..f funds belanalla to patileulat amounts to de-
ft. .y services t r she. bum bilasee may be deb.:tent, the ay-tea des
sat Idl m out that c:ear woman of the rums which Is respared is
enable the 4,1 t emulate their sometimes with certainty.
Tbus capital do tour, ble.aled with incase, and der boats do nut
tr taw far tee payments to the hastisquier are Juatitel by surpa. !
tanome.
The reading of that letter alone would have justified him
in maim, a motion for estimates being laid before the'
house. If there had been an unusual report of the accounts,
such letter could not have been written. Atter the com-
mittee had examined the Chief Commissioner, by his aeons.
mencLtion they selected the Forests as the tiro subject of
inquiry, because that branch of the department had not
been inquired into since 1797. The royal forests were origi-
n illy set apart tu places of sport foe our kings, and being
watched with great jealousy, no irregularity took place; hut
in time the honest laws were not so strictly kept. The
forests wise.. governed by officers and laws peculiar to them-1
itelvel. The forest courta were three in number—the At- I
tachment Courts were held monthly, the Verderes'
Court+ held three times • year, and the Court uf
the t:liief Justice in Eyre held once every three scam.
Three sets of others were appointed, the ranger's estaLlish-
'Rent to look aver the deer, the venleren appointed by the
freeholder, to look after their sights, and the third were ape
pointed by the OulaMidolialeff of woods and foreste to look
after the growing timber. The duties of looking after the
cowing timber and attending to the deer did not seem to
Tv, congenial. When he (Lord Duncan) went to Tuft
W Few !veva, he &coveted that the greaten coshuicia

1101:23K OF COMMONS.—TcrArkvr, MARCH
The Seua= task the char at fourE clock.
PRIVATE B U SINS.
Sr.iran Rea mstio.—lkeby and Ashburn Road ; Lan-
erallin and Yorkshire Railway (fifth shares) ; Wexford
Ere.. Bridge *guru.lment ; WWI.
SM IT II VI ELD MARE ET ENLARGEMENT BILL.
Cru the motion of Sir J. Doan the second reading of
this 1.41 po.tponetl to Monday wet.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
WRIT Felt DUNUAItVAN.
Mr. eI.EMENT.s mor.i the hour of a new writ for
the of a member rar the borough of Dongarvan, in
the room of the Right lion. Richard fakir Shed, whn had
accept. of the Ohre asuman! of the Chiltern Hundreds.
Mr. *RAW ItIUIIT a krd when the right hon. gentle-
men had accept. el the .kite in question
Mr. HAYTI.* replied about ten ills ago.
A new writ for the election of a member fur Dungurean
was accordingly ordereoN d to
PET rfls
M r Kt:V.I7ILE MARINE ALT. - By Col. FREESTUN,
from the merchants, shipowners shipmasters, and seamen
of the port of Weymouth, for the repeal of the Mercantile
Marine Act of Iwo .1,411,11 ; and by Mr. HUME, from the
shipping interest of Montt..., praying for an alteration of
thu prejudicial dower* Id that act.
fin ITtt FILL M A —lly.Mf. EV FINN, from Choi,
icy, Ailillratime, and Rgham, in Surrey, and from Staium,
in Miran us; Mr. MASTEIIMAM, from butchers of the
City of tendon; Mr. Ald. SIDN KY (2), from butchers of
the inctropoli., and libui from the Billingraate fish salesmen;
Sir IL PEC HELL, from 49 butcher' of Brighton ; Sir W.
CLAY, from the butchers of Hominy awl Bow ; Mr.
HENLEY, from graticn, in Oxfordshire; Mr. WAR LEY,
ban butchers of Islington and Findoury ; Mr 11. DRUM-
MOND, from graziers in Surrey; Mr. ROutv.icr PALMER,
(non butchers of the town of Hungerford ; Sir B. HALL,
from butchers of Marylehone ; mrainst the removal at
Smithfield Market. By Mr. J. ANIS, from 207 in-
habitant. of the City of London, in favour of its removal.
Trisiteet Merits.— By Mr. lIUME, from WO ship-
wright. on the River Weir, statiog that ships built at
foreign ports of foreign timber were admitted into England
and freely registered, whilst the timber r.ikuirtil to build
ship. in Englund %TA% 41%.4.41 -complaining, therefore, of
unjust competition, and pruyiug for u repeal of the timber

Toe Con. AND NAVIGATION LAWA.—FIy Mr.
BANK ES, from numerous owners and occupiers of land in
Dorset, stating that frie trade had signally faded—that its
Nardi.... on agriculture was injurious—and that the repeal
of the navigation laws had damaged the shipping interest,
and
the
for a revision of the tariff and impart duties,
for the imposition of a tax on the foreign prailueer and
importer, nodal. for a revision of thu art of parliament by
'huh the navigation laws were repealed.
PAPAW. DUTIKA.—By Sir T. ACLAND, from magistrates
of Ikroushire, fur the repeal of the duties on paper.
WINDOW Tax.—Br Mr. MUNDY, from Blackburn ;
Mr. ALEN.. lIASTIE, from lord Provost and magistrate.
of Glasgow Sir W. CLAY, trim Shadwell; in favour of
re the peal 1:f the window tax, without the substitution of
any other impost in ben thereof.
1.4,1,04 r Tax.—By Mr. WAKLEY, from an individual
(name not heard). complaining that income arising from
professional lOLITI/OIDI should be taxed in the vune manner
as realised property, and praying fur the ahulition of the
income tat.
Cocstv Bovidis.—ltd Mr. EVELYN, from the guar•
dents of Its, Dorking Union, Surrey; and by Sir If. OBEY,
from ratepayers of a place in Northumberland; in favour of
comity financial Marla.
I,sw of Sri TISAIENT.—ny Mr. HENLEY, from
Board of Outirdiana en Oztardaltire, for an eztensiun of the
law of settlement, and a more equitable adjustment of the
area of rating.
BORNEO.
Mr. II VME gave notice that he would move on Monday
fortnight that the house do institute an inquiry into the
transactions which took place on the west coast of Borneo,
iu which a large number of the natives were massacred.
CEYLON. .

Mr. ItAl 1.1.1 E gave notice that he would on that day
fortnight call the attention of the house to the ..vidence
taken before the whet committee on the affairs of Ceylon,
and move certain resolution. to the effect that the house,
haring taken that evidence into consideration, was of
opinion that our proeoeilinp, in the island Awl been etre.-
air., and utincossarily oven ; that the infliction of heavy
punishments for alleged °Mme.'s after the disturbances had
been ruppossed was at variance with British rule; and
that the conduct pursued hail been precipitate and injudi-
cious, tending to MAR.& a dangerous precedent.
SCOTC II FORTY-SI! I LLING FREEHOLDERS.
Mr. U. SMITH gave notice that he would on that day
fortnight move filf leave to bring in • bill to enable forty-
atuLLmtttt to vote for shire. in Scotland.
PIIESSU RR ON I RPM AGRI(' I: LTLTR E.
Colonel DI'N'N F. gave notice that he would on that day
fortnight move for an inquiry into the causes of the
preamns on agriculture in Ireland.
'TRANSFER OF 11(1511 PROPERTY.
Mr. SADLEIR gave notice that he would on an early
day move for an inijairy into the causes which impeded the
transferal' property in Inland.
DUNCA' 4'111f:1101.M ulisio GEORGE MATT II lEWS.
Mr. SCULLY moved for copies of correspinulene.. rola.
Gar to the CAW of this individual, an aboomdird clerk (Fowl
the oSes, of the Chief Seeretary for Ireland. -Agreed to.
TRINITY COLLEGE. DUBLIN.
Mr. SCULI.Y moved for a return of all land. and
hereditasi,.nt. to which the bill now pending in the house
infitahQ, •• A Bill to extend the leasing powers
of the corporate body the Provost. Fellows. and
Scholar. of the College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity
of Queen Eliaabeth. near Ihiblin, and a 1... of the Pro-
vovt thereof in hie corporate capacity, and to enable theta
to make- manta of lands in perpetuity to their lessees
he ...main mom—Agreed to."
RAMSGATE AND MARGATE 'HARBOURS.
Mr. MOFFAT asked the }lnt Isirilofthe .kdiuiralty who.
Sher it ia the intention of government to adopt the memos
asendationof t liecleet committee of last mosicni.onitllll4,(9lte
sal MargateHatboara. in regard to the alinlitiim of duo,
or toll* now enacted (non vessels not actually entering the
Mekong of Bassastate
Sir F. RARING said the hon. cosMwr wit pro'ribly
tWife that the government had no contr-I over the auk+ in
—*ram /hay of them had been imputed either by cons-
that house by nettle of art of pArliament.
• engineer to furnish the Admiralty
information on the subject. and
he would answer the hum. gentle-

THE INDIAN ARMY.
- of the Seeretsry ot the Bond 41
47441 a eing4W44. tad 21.

and irregularity prevailed. The Earl of Carlisle had place,' parliament, had been sold to the extent of 696,000!. One I
him in communication with the deputy surveyor, Mr. J. part had been solil fur 341,0001., and it was a private treaty 1
herd, who was then manager of the forest. Ile had not gone between the commissioners on the unchand and private per-
far
into the lined whew he saw timber lying by the. road, sons on the other. Now, the 10 Geo. I V.,cap. 69, which was ,
hdi pat...agrek with-the, catalogue sent tn the cues- the set ander which the property was manage% provided,
rae
ion ' Mt; Hein, hi reply to his iriries, Petered and very remerly, that money derived front sales of land
to h winker and setifor France. (Laughter.). Ons should be Invested in other property to an equal extent. In
Lis coming and stain/ what he hail soen, the govern- the report of the evidence it would be found in the
*tent appoint Major Freiman to inquire Into the matter, examination of the third commissioner of the Woods
fend who s t ireport,-
r. which stated in effect, ts that a and Forests, Mr. Milne, that the sum of 300.000 L
great quantity of timber was stolen by purchase et the had been invested
Now, iu property whithechhouse had not proved
ld
time of the periodical sales,and that them was a great deli- very profita. who s
eiency in the lobe and that a great many more trees were access be able to explain such a cave as this. The noble
touted to be eat down than the nuniber stated in the reports." lord then thanked the house ter the patient and in-
Major Freeman said that • system of robbery had been dulgent hearing which they had granted to him, and be
going on fur years, and every one in the neighoourhood submitted that he had made out a case. If the charges
named to think that the forests belonged to them. This now stopped out of the annual income of the Woods and
could not have happened if mutual estimate. had been laid Forests were annually voted,
'l the p
the public accounts would be
before the house. He would not go at length into the case much more intelligible. ng contended that the °Mee
of all the forests which he had visited, beginning with of works should be separated from that of woods and land
the New Forest and ending with Chopwell, in the revenue, Lord Duncan concluded by saying that those
county of Durham. In respect to Whychwousl, the corn- hon. members who thought that the preseut management
mutes found that the crown had been at law with the here- was good and effective would be justified in voting against
dreary ranger Lord Churchill, for many years; indeed, the motion he proposed. lint he naked the support of
sinoe 1831 ; ;Ant during that period, though the timber those gentlemen who concurred with him in thinking that
was too ;dice, no wood hail been cut by either party, and it would be beneficial to have annual estimates dare' upon
that the lawsuit, though it had never been heard, hail the table, and that the house ought to demand those
cost the crown 6,0001., and that it had never estimates both for the present good and for the prospective
been alluded to in the annual reports to parliament. benefit of the revenues of the crown. (Hear, hear.) The
The suit had only abated by the death of Lord noble lord concluded by handing in his motion.
Churchill, and it was only a chance that it had not been re- Lord SEYMOCIt said that the noble lord who had
newed long before this. Before such suits were commenced just .at down had given so much of his time in
the opinion of that house should have been taken a. to attendance upon the committee and to everything
whether so great an expenditure should be incurred. With connected with the interest of the land revenues,
regard to another forest, that of Waltham, when he visited and the Woods and Forests that any speech from him upon
it he found it in the greatest confusion, and that almost all the subject was deserving of
the best attention of the house.
the land was appropriated by the neighhouring proprietors (11ear,Isear.) Ilc (Lord Seymour) would say at the outset
land various lawsuits had been commenced. One lawsu that he was as independent in any opinions he might eK-
I had been commenced in 11443 and was going on in ISIS press upon the subject as any hon. member of the house.
which had never been heard of, as usual, and which had For 1848 and 1849 heaves no more responsible fur the Woods
been
the pored from year to year. Ile (Lord Duncan) had and Forests than any other member of the house. There-
asked the solicitor of the Woods and Forests if rilaiiv wit- fore it was obvious he was able to give an opinion nehmen •
mews had not been When to the assizes at Chelmsford, and dentist. Before he went to the office he had thought he
he stated that about thirty had been taken there for the should find the land revenues diminished and re-
defendants. A great expense had been thus incurnd, while duced, and that they had been so mismanaged
the trial of the case had been leistponed, the ma- that whenever they reverted to the crown they
son assigned being that the judge, Mr. Justice would be found seriously impaired. Ile called
Culeridge, had not time to try it. The AttorneGencrul for the gross return of On, land revenues from the time
hail received a special retainer of three hundred guineas from which every reform hail been dated, namely, the re-
besides his brief fee (and this for merely putting on his wig, port of Fordyce and others in 1794, and lie asked himself
for the caw was not tried), and he thought there had been a what was the increase and decrease of the revenues. He
most expensive series of litigation, the great part of which would state a very short summary of that, showing that
ell on the Woods and Forests. The public paid this because whosoever was to blame, the revenues were not in that tie-
ono the accession of the Queen those estates were handed plumbic. and lamentable state and condition which his noble
over to the house ; and, if they allowed this to go on, they friend haddeseribed. In the year 1789, the amount of grow M-
eiotic would be to blame. A hon. friend of his had just cone of lauds in England and Wale. was 19,6001, in 1799,
asked him who paid the Attorney-General his three linu- they had grown up to 21,600/. • in 1809, to 42,0001. • in 1819,
dred guineas. Why, the Commissioners of Woods and to 120,0001. •in 11429, to 183,101.11. ;in 1839, to 188,106/. ; and in
Forests, with the public money. (Hoar, hear.) There 1819-50, to 103,300/. That was the state of the income of the
were five forest. in which the rights of the crown were not land revenues of the crown in England and Wales. Ile
separated from those of individuals, and which remained as had then asked for the account of the land revenues of
they were in 1797. There were other forests in which the Scotland, which hail been transferred to the cominissioners
rights of the crown had been defined and freed from all in 1832. Perhaps they had been mismanaged. But he
intermixture with the rights of individuals. The found that while in 1831-32, they had amounted to 14,9001.,
committee found that the commissioners had per they had risen in 1849-10, to *29,8001. (Hear, hear.) lle
sued the policy of planting oaks for the use had next asked for the accounts of the land revenues of the
of the navy and when in 1797 the commissioners recom- isle of Man, which were transferred to the Commissioner,'
mended that the forests should be kept up it was said that of Wood,. and Forests in 1427-8, and he had found, on
if any other wood should happen to Ise supplied to the 'searching them, that while the income in that year (1827-8)
navy the forests should be cut down and the money pro- had been 1,4011., it had risen in 1649-30 to 5,000/. (Ilene,
dured by the sale lodged for the benefit of the crown. Inoue hear.) lie had thund therefore that, upon the whole,
forest, that of Delamere, this expensive experiment had coot whatever the mismanagement hod becu, there was
the country 45,0001. In Chopwell there was aunnfortunate yet hope that much would be recovered. (Hear, hear.)
hurricane by which a large portion of the wood after it was lie then wanted to see if there really was any part of the
planted was -blown down. In the forest of Saluey in North- crown property which had been well munagial ; and ns he
amptonshire, an extraordinary appointment had been made was at that time in a position to ascertain particulars pla-
in the year 1827—that of Mr. Kent. Ile took the account tive to the London property, he called for the returns and
of it from the evidence of Mr. Milne, the weentilcominiesoner. accounts of that district, by which he found that the amount
He (Lord Duncan) wind what was the profession of of crown rents in London was 1.37,8831., and that the cost
Mr. Kent, and the answer was that he had been a of collecting the rents was only 1,0001. (Hear, hear.) Ile
clerk in a solicitor's office in the City. The hon. member could not see that there was bad management in that re-
sult at least. (Hear.) Then lie looked. to the proposition
fur Oxford—a member of the committee—asked if Mr. Kent
hail ever had anything to do with the management of tim- which hail been brought forward by his noble friend,
bee before, and the answer was that he had not. lile. Kent and found his statement to be, that, while the
went down to Solcey and remained there six years. lie gross income of the land revenues of the crown had
sent in annual reports of his proceedings, and about the end amounted, during a period of seven years (from 1812 3 to
of the sit years he sent a letter to the commissioners. 18414-9), to 2,446,7831., out of that sum only 774,0001.'
stating that one of his sureties had failed. On this there had been paid into the exchequer. His noble friend
was an investigation, and it was found that Mr. Kent hail
further stated that the sum withheld for charges of
cut clown timber, and made away with about 4,0001. of the collection and management amounted to 1,672,783/., and
profits. He ran away, and some year after he was taken, concluded that that sum had evaporated because: the House
tried, and transported. The 4,0001. was never mentioned of Commons had no proper control over it. In calling for
in the annual report to parliament. It was in vain to talk a return of the grows income paid into the exchequer it was
of economy if such practices were allowed to continue, also necesaary to call for the balance standing to the credit
and it was in vain to look to the annual report of the Com- of the land revenues. Now, on the Ist of April, 1819—
which was the time at which this paper was made up—by
miesioner% of Woods and Forests for infinmation, because
they contained no mentiou of the mutters which he had the balance-sheet he found that there was a large sum,
stated. Ile did not attach blame to the individuals then which was no part of the income of the land revenue, which
holding the offices of Commissioners of Wields mid Furcate, had been taken, not by the office of Woiels and Forests,
but he did blame the system by which there never was any nut by the government, but by parliament. (Hear, hear.)
calling to account of these officers on the part of parliament, Parliament had taken considerable sums by acts of purls-
aud he must again say that if estimates had been laid before ment, so reducing the balances in the exchequer. Some of
parliament there would have been none of these irregulari- these were old transactions, dating in the time of Charles
ties. These unfortunate persons were the victims of a 11. There was one instance in which the amount of Pays
ments ordered by parliament, within a series of seven years, I
temptation they could not racist, and it was the want of
control by parliament, of which the house ought to be amounted to 138,600/. Nut only that, parliument had
heartily ashamed, which hail enabled them to commit itself interfered with purchases, and in other ways, as in'
case of the minister's stipend in Dean Forest ; and ut other
these irregularities. There were no maps or surveys of the
forests before the meeting of the committee, but all the land Vases, and fur ether pummels parliament had appropriated
hadbeen converted into plantationeof timber fortheusenf the 78,0001. more, making a sum of 216,0001. tnat must be de-
navy. That beingsnletthe houacjudgeof Ins surprisewhenbe ducted from the balance. Now, all thew sums had been
moved for a letter addressed by Mr. Barrow, the Secretary taken by act of parliament ; and yet the house was now
to the Admiralty, to Mr. Milne in 1833, in which he stated, called upon by hie noble friend to declare, by resolution,
" 1 am torntnanded by my Lords Commissioners of the that a awn of 1,672,783/. had been withheld for charges
and expense% of management, and charged against the
Admiralty to send you herewith a comparative statement of
the expense of proeuring oak timber from the Kings forint., revenues. But by whom ? Why by parliament. (Hear,
and by contract. and I am to acquaint you that it hear) In all these old and past transactions he (Lord
is no longer the interest of the public to pay Se Seymour) hail of course no interest, but the gentlemen
a load with all the attendant expenses for timber sup- who had preceded him in the office were equally, of course,
plied to the dockyards from the King's forests." Mr. anxious that the statement should be fairly made. (lieer,
hear.) Hie noble friend at the head of the government had
Barrow stated that the cost of a load of wood from the
Woods and Forests Was 8/. 12s. 7d.; whereas it could he stated what was very true—that the wisest course would be
got from a contractor for 6/. Is (Hear, hear.) This was to divide the office of works front the Office of woods and
out stated in the reports presented to the house, and they land revenues, and that whatever expenses were incurred
hail not been able to judge if it was worth their while under the office of works should be voted by parliament,
to incur such an additional expense in the rearing and that the laud revenues should become more within
of timber. 'There had been no opportunity of debating and subordinate to the functions to generalrevenue. Raynor
the question or entering into an examination of the true been told of the charges that had been alleged against the
Woods and Forests he had been anxious to make himself
state of thinms when they only had such reportsas thine, and
which never came under the eyes of members of the house, acquainted with the management so les to enable him to be of
The question he had now to ask was. whether with such in- Use in the house, and he had not only availed himself of the
stances as he had given of the position in which the woods opportunities afforded in the office but had visited meet of
and Forests stood, the house would allow the crown estates these forests. (Bear, hear.) When the Reputation was
to remain in the condition in which they were a year and a made, and when the house had to pars votes lin a large
half ago ? (Hear, hear.) lle now came to the question of Istrt of the expenditure, he did not believe that they
the niaitattentent of the estates, and he thought he eliould would eueeeed in reducing it. If they would look
le alile to show such results as fully to juoti:y him in malt- at the hut report of the Commissioners of Woods
iug this motion. Previously to the appointntent of the corn- and Forests they would see what they would have
mittee, the present Duke of Newcastle, who had been chief to vote upon, and the details they would have to
commissioner of the Wools and Forests, mood for a return attend to—such as the propriety of the drainage of property
of the income and expenditure of the Wools and Forests in one spot—the reduction of a fanner's noes iu another
district—the assistance to be given to a fanner on some
for the last ten years, which had been !aid before the
committee, and he would read the results of that return:— other property to drain his lands ' • and matters of that kind,
The gross income of the Woods and Forsist% for 7 year, all of them small aunts and small affairs, ever which, he had
1842-3-1848-9, was 2,446,783/. • the sums paid into the much doubt that parliament would exercise, an efficient con-
Exchequer duringthe same period were 774.0.10/. ; the differ- trot. (Hear, hear.) Ile had found by his experience on
cafe, or amount withheld, was 1,612,7851. l'he expendi- committees, and learned front those who hail served with
tore by the return appears to have lawn durino the same him upon committee',committee',committee',that if there was one principle more
period, 1,556,085/. ehe difference is an increase of the clear titan another it was this—that the House of Commons
might lay down good sound principles for the general guid-
Isalanee in hand 117,7001.; to recount far the expenditure
of which no subsequent returns have yet been laid before mice of the conduct of a department, but that the house
parliament. The gross receipts for the land revenue in itself could not exercise efficient and independent control
s' ........ —...- - over the details of the departments of the country. (Hear.)
. . . , .. . .
would de '

year' On round numbera 2710,0001. per annum) was
t,983,921/; the expenditure charged on the *ame (about
00,000/. per annum), 637,6141.; being a charge of
that 11.- ' the crown revee

it was a hopeless built for them, and they . do better
to confine themielves to their function in laying duou good
era, , , fur the management of the property and
.. . ...
had

f them
• In -...:,,0mratt'1t.7t., h..
He had authorm‘l the vizi
with some neetwou7 in
whoa that was furnialted ,
ma's question.
OFFICERS Di
I ]lr. EVART inquired
Gated *Was mg spat