The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-27 00:00:00

[ eemmittee of their lordship also sat upon the question lad
year. That committee examined Mr. Cornwall Lewin, Mr.
Senior, Mr. Guidon, Mr. Twietleton, and Mr. Clements, ell
of whomdeclared their belief that the whole property of the
country would be swamped by the introduction of any
ustem of out-door relief in Ireland. He asked their lord-
ships then' to pause and reflect upon the evidence he had
adduced. could the government produce any opposing
fads? But it was said by many—relieve Irish poverty
Irish property, and protect us in England from being charged
with Ste support. Now, in addssng himself to that selfish
argument, he commenced re
by saying that he grieved that
there was a nrceositv for importation of Irish labour into the
English market. IS ut would the application of out-door
relief in Ireland check emigration from Ireland to England?
He believed that so far from checking it, such a systent would
greatly promote it. And he would demonstrate this position.
The southern counties of England, from Kent to Dorset,
were those in which outdoor relief to the able-bodied was
formerly most lavishly applied. It was in those counties
that wages were at that time the lowest and most miserable,
whilst the counties in which labour was best paid were
those counties in which there was least out-door relief.
What reason was there to doubt that the same effects
would follow the same causes in Ireland ? Then, what
made the Irishmen come over to this country ? The temp-
tation of higher wages; and was it not a natural consequence,
that if the out door system reduced wages, the emigration
from Ireland to Eugland would be by so much ineresaed?
When the owners of property in Ireland were ruined—
when industry was deprived of its just reward—when all
security for property was removed—when everything was
reduced to one dreary, miserable waste, unless they came to
the proposition of " scuttling " Ireland and leaving her
four-and-twenty hours under the sea, the pauperism of Ire-
land mud se-act upokEngland, and in their homes, their
parks, their mansions, their palaces, and their hose,es of
parliament, the people of England must fed the dread
effects of it. One subject which he wished their lordship*
carefully to consider was the proposed extension of the rating
district. The union rating would, he thought, be utterly
destructive of all property. To make a person responiiitde
for pauperism twenty five or thirty miles off, was to violet*
the common principles of justice. On such a subject they
ought not to disregard authority and experience. Of all
social experiments, that which they were about to try was the
most awful ; and he called upon the government to lay be-
fore the public materials which they might ponder during
the Easter recess. It should not be supposed that he was
against making Irish property responable for Irish poverty.
Leta property tax of 10,15, or even 20 per cent., be imposed,
if necessary, upon Irish land : what he claimed war, not the
of is Wei from tanatioa. but the proeution of
is country from the misapplication of the money raised.
Lett it should be imagined that he was only indulging in
vague generalities, he would suggest that the system of
medical relief for the sick poor should be extended;
that there should be asylums established for the
relief of every evil to which humanity was sub-
ject--asylums for the blind, for the insane, foe
the decrepid, and foe the impotent. (Hear, bear.) The
workhouse relief should, if requisite, be doubled ; but
let it he remembered that, in proportion to the rental, tee
property of Ireland was making as large a contribution in
the present year, in the shape of par-rate, u was being paid
by property in England. (Hear, hear.) With respect to
emigration, he thought they not only might, but they mast,
go much further; it was impartible to meet the difficulty in
which Ireland was placed without going intiniv ly farther
in that respect than the government appeared prepared to
go. Thanking their lordships for the patience with which
they had listened to him, he called upon them to pans*
before they pronounced the death-warrant of a people,
and destroyed all chance of improvement in Ire-
land. The noble lord concluded by moving —" That
a select committee be appointed to consider and to
report on the recommendations of the aeveral parliamentary
committee* and commieeiona on the state of the Irish poor,
as relating to the expediency of introducing permanently
the system of out-door relief for the able-bodied labourer;
and on the effect of such a measure on the well loeing of
Ireland, the interests of the poor themselves, and the immi-
gration of Irish paupers into Great Britain: and also, to
consider end to report on the effects of enlarging the present
electoral divisions, for the purpose of raising and levying the
assessments under the poor-law."
The question having been put,
Earl GREY said he could assure their lordships that it
was with great regret that he felt it necessary to ask them to
refuse their assent to the motion. He bad great doubt as to
the light in which he should regard that motion—whether
the real object were to institute en inquiry, or to induce their
lordships to express, by anticipation, an opinion unfavourable
to a particular clause in a bill which would shortly come
under consideration, and which, after full deliberation, had
been carried is the other house by a majority even of Irish
members. (Hear, hear.) In either view he considered the
motion very objectionable. For his own part, he (Earl Grey)
entertained the strongest conviction that the bill,
which had been supported by such large majorities
in the other house of parliament, wee absolutely essen-
tial to the future welfare of the sister kingdom. He
did not deny that it was a legitimate and perfectly par-
liamentary proceeding to ask the house to express an opinion
upon a great question by implication, before the bill actually
came before them, but the inconvenience of such a course
was proved by the circumstance that throughout his speech
his noble friend had been fighting a chimera of his own
invention, and not the measure which would shortly be dis-
cussed. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend had spoken as if it
were proposed to establish, as the ordinary course of things a
system of out-doer relief to the able-bodied. That was
very unlike what was redly proposed. The poor-law in
Ireland at that moment made the granting of relief entirely
discretionary, the boards of guardians being empowered,
but not required, to relieve the totally deinitute. The go-
vereunent
.proposed, not, he thought, without grave nem-
Sty, that, in future, boards of guardians should not only be
empowered, but also required, to relieve the destitute. If
that principle of legislation were adopted, it followed that
they must provide some means by which, when the work-
house was full, those whom they believed it a duty to relieve
should receive assistance. Accordingly, in the bill then be.
fore the other house of parliament, it was proposed that
when the workhouse was full, or when, owing to fever or
some other cause, it was no longer available, then, and then
only, under a temporary order from the poor-law commis-
sioner—an order strictly limited in point of time, though it
might be renewed whenever a necessity for renewal ex-
isted under such as order in the pressure of a
temporary emergency, relief out of the workhouse
should be granted to the able-bodied. That was
the real proposal of her Majeety's government; but any one
who had not read the bill would have formed a very different
conclusion from the speech of his noble friend. (Hear, hear.)
Much bad been said about the abuses of relief in this coun-
try ; but his noble friend had forgotten to remark that an
effective poor-law was in itself of the utmost value to society.
When society declared that no man should be left absolutely
to die of hunger, while there were means of relieving him,
there was given to that great portion of mankind in all coun-
tries which must trust tether to labour than to accumulated
property for its subsistence, an interest in maintaining the
laws upon which the security of property depended ; and
that he believed was one of the very first essentials for creat-
ing a rich and prosperous community, and giving an impulse
to industry and improvement. From the very moment
when each a law was_pessed in England, the state of society
began to improve. When security was thus establishW,
property began to accumulate, industry to flourish, and year
after year, and century after century, this great country had
advanced in wealth and proejterity greatly, through the ope-
ration of the same cause. Expenence the other way was no
less instructive. The universal answer to the question,
" Why is Ireland poor and miserable ?" would be, " Be-
cause there is insecurity in Ireland." (Hear, bear.) The
town why Ireland did not flourish, why capital did not ac-
cumulate there, was that hitherto there had been no security
that thou who were industrious should enjoy the fruits of there
industry—a elate of things which had led to a determination
on the pert of the population generally to cling to land at all
hazards, because, if deprived of that, they might be left to
perish on a dunghill, and because that was the one sheet-
anchor which they could fly to in their extremity. It was
this feeling which had led to so much eombsnation, to the
midnight legislation of Captain Bock, and to all those
peculiarities of Ireland which had rendered its improvement
so difficult, if not imposAle. No doubt political camas had
greatly aggravated tU eidie of the country, but be &ebbed
whether there was any gem so powerful as the almesses
i.
any security even for a enbeleassee to ore of the Men
who had been ejected tress Ye
wakaer,4117...1
His noble friend had maim ono
correction ; it was, that under the ii allablik, Mkt
could not be given to the able- peer est date Seek-
house,

Lord MONTEAGLE—Not without work.
Earl GREY—His noble friend had said dutt , "mat
of the {workhouse." (Hear, hoar.) Mrs the hlI MIS
before their lordships it would be trial Salk AR wet*"
pose any necessity of giving relief Minna week; geld
would be given under such precau n Ike,ab soak more.
lationa cc the board of guardians %Or lipispreger la
adopt in order to prevent abuse. Ho OM 111
the workhouse were full, and lie ed
sanctioned the granting of relief la ft I=
bodied poor, it would be well ee segehte week
a test of the reality of Ow Aged deeitalkw,
His noble friend said that the valet eut-dear relief
would be liable to great abuse, sad argued from the expe-
rience of the last six months that the workhouse teat would
be melees. But he begged to tell his noble friend that there
was a great difference in the economy with which people
managed their own money and that of others. (Hear, hair,
The evidence in the blue-books showed that the great rapes
diture in Ireland arose from the belief that those who autho
rued the expenditure would have to pay but a small part is,
it, and he was sure that if the money was raised by rata at
the time, a very different degree of severity would have pre-
vailed respecting its expenditure. (Hear, hear.) But
he had then no fear of that lavish expenditure which
his noble friend dreaded. But, in addition, it was notorious
that the Irish peasant waa unwilling to avail himself of the
workhouse.

Lord MONTIUGLE—But relief wee now to be given oat
of the workhouse.

Earl OREY—Relief out of the wockhorm woe not to be
given till the means of giving Mist vied" the wcokkeess
were exhausted, and there was nothing te preemie the people
of Imbued from taxing themselves to imams, the workhouse
accommodation if they thought it. (seer, hear.) But
till the existence of the present famine, the present work-
house accommodation was more than and theresom
was hardly any workhouse in the whole which
was more than half full. They were now proposing
to apply to Ireland the system wide won Illftilli oat in the
beet regulated workhouse' of Engleat, GA he lad no doubt,
if the boards of guardians did their duty. that it afforded
ample mesas of preventing the ahem of outdoor
rebef. The system bad been In N , when
distress to a gnat attest dine. But t was said—
not by his mobile iiieed—let eleewhere, that the number of
the eirritare la Delo/ was le pest that it was utterly im-
=to id pellabie emplepolot for them, particularly
el i
esentim is tall 'MOM meet. That was an mecumen
which weed to him to proceed on very erroneous grounds.