The Express.
London, England, 1848-03-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARL lAMEN 1.

- -
110 USE OF LORDS.—TURBDAY, FILBAUARY 29.
The LoaD Canacaugta took kis seat at 5 o'clock.
PUBLIC 111/BINUM
PICTITIONS.—Lard Sasvitoirr, from a lodge of, odd fellows:Prof-
lag that the/ might be included within the operabon of the Bonen,
thesistase BW.--Illahop of Osman, from several places, against the
adealtalcs of Jews to peal lament.
MOND ItIiADIMINew Zealand Gmerenseat
THE CLERK ASSISTAN
The LORD CHANCELLOR proposed • resolution ex-
pressing the thanks of their lontships to J. W. L. Birch,
Seq., on the oei mien of his resigoation, for the frithful and
able manner in which he had performed the duties of the
once of clerk luaistant for the hat 40 years.—Agreed to.
The Duke of RICHMOND heartily concurred in the ex-
prersion of thanks to Mr. Hach, at,d hoped he would
lire
long to enjoy his retiring pension.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then proposed that Mr.
Birch be allowed to retire on a pension tf 2,0001. a year.—

Agreed to.
WRECK OF TILE AVENGER, &c.
In answer to • question from the Boil of MALILIABVICT,
The Earl of AUCKLAND said that tokens of approbation
and rewsz.ls had been given to the Bey of Tunis, the captain
and crew of the French ship, and every one concerned in
saving a portion of the crew of the Avenger. The noble earl
had also r. ferred to a family on the west coast of Ireland,
who, during the winter, had shared their scanty store of food
with six survivors of an American crew, whose vessel had
been wrecked on the ceast, and he bed asked whether the
government would not reward them for their noble and de-
voted conduct. He was sorry that he could not answer the
question in consequence of having heel no previous notice omf
it; but he believed it was in contemplation to give the
some mark of approbation for their praiseworthy conduct. I
RUSIOURED DES tRUCTION OF THE INDIAN
MAIL IN PARIS.
The Duke of RICHMOND wished to ask the noble marquis
opposite whether he had received any information which
ha could communicate to the house on the subject of the ru-
moured destruction of the Indian mail in Paris ?
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he bad good au-
thority foe believing that the report was false. The Indian
mail left this country on the 25th inst., and reached Paris on
the '27th, sod after some delay in that capitol, for which
neither the postal authorities nor the provisional government
of France were responsible, it was duly forwarded. M.
Etienne -erase (now at the head of the petal department in
France), who had aommuoittated these facts to him, also
added that every effort would be made by his department to
ensure the speedy and safe transit and delivery of letters.
NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
Earl GREY, in moving the second reading of this bill,
was for some time inaudible in the gallery. The noble earl
bore testimony to the conduct of Cept. Grey, the governor
of the colony. The change of affairs upon his arrival was
no less graphic than gratifying. The public revenue had
dwindled almost to nothing—the natives entertained con-
tempt for the government—the British settlers themselves
were desponding and discouraged. But in tee course of five
or six weeks the whole face of 'Gin was changed, and the
rebellion was soon put an end to, and from that time to this,
uniform success hal attended the measures of the govern-
ment. The natives felt the greet et confidence in the gover-
nor; public works had been carried oo to • great extent—
the state of finances had improved, and trade was sow
in • most flourishing condition. He mentioned
these matters not so much, to praise Governor Grey—
who, however, deserved all commendation—as to show
the importance of attending to the suggestion of • person so
wall acquainted with the colony and the mode of governing
it successfully. (Hear, hear.) Accordingly, the measure
which he seas about to propose was founded almost entirely
upon the recommendations of Governer Grey. (Hear, hear.)
It was thought desirable iii the year 1315, that the settlers
should have more control over their affairs, nod the governor
less. When her Majesty's present advis,rs came into office,
there did not appear to him any reason for alterino that
opinion, which ha, in common with others, had entertained.
It seemed to him that without some popular form of govern-
ment in the colony, then was little hope of reviving the
spirit of enterprise there, and again directing tne stream of
emigration towards it. And great as the diffienlties appeared
to be, it did seem desirable that some effort should be made
with a view of farthering that object. A measure
was, in consequence, proposed and sanctioned by parlia-
ment, which he now pun osed partially to suspend.
The object of that measure was to found a system of repre-
sentation, and to form municipal bodies in the colony to per-
form duties which would otherwise devolve on the central
government. Thera was great difficulty attending the
adoption of a system of representation in New Zealand,
principally from the wide distance apart from each other of
the towns of that colony, Auckland and Wellington being
400 miles distant from each other. It bad, therefore, been
suggested that there should ba • legislature in each ; this
plan, however, was attended with many difficulties, besides
the objection of having two independent legislatures in the
same colony. To meet than difficulties it was suggested that
there should: be a joint deputation from each to agree on
the amount of import duties ant other important measurer.
In proposing such an arrangement the government hail
also felt that it would not be easy to impose such
a local government on the natives, and to meet
that difficulty it was proposed that the power of
the municipal authorities anould only extend to those
districts where the settlers principally resided. If it
were prudent to establish popular government at once in
New Zealand the governor did not deader: to uprose it ; but
he had certainly shown that, at the present moment, it was
impracticable. The main objection he urged was. that the
natives, although not sufficiently advanced in intelliezllCe to
take part in such municipal councils, wera sufficiently acute
to view with great jtalouey and dissatisfaction the appro-
priation of a revenue raised on imports partly collected from
themselves, 61241 in the distribution of which they had no
voice. (Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, thought desirable
to suspend for a time the measure which proposed to confer
legislative power on New Zealand; and, as long as
the colony did not pay her own expon-es, h
did not think the settlers bad as much cause of
eomplaint fur not having a representative govern-
ment as they otherwise would have. He, therefore,
proposed to su-pend the constitution of the colony for five
years, after which, bo hoped it would be in a fit suite to re-
ceive a popular government. At the same time, it was de-
sirable to extend the elements of representation which now
existed, but the amount of representation to be conceded it
was not easy to determine ; and, in feet, 0 .verrior Grey
strongly recommended that this suhjict should be settled on
the spot. The bill on their lordships' table authorised the
governor to increase the legislative council which previously
existed, and give them the power of making ordinances to
create subordinate legislatures when it might be thought de-
sirable. These appointments would, of course, be subject to
the approval of her Majesty. Then as to the municipal in-
stitutions, he saw no reason for suspending them. The act
of 1846 provided that no one should be eligible for muni-
Opal offices unless they could read and write English.
The government had however stated, that whilst many na-
tives could read and write their own language, and speak
English, they could neither read nor write the English lan-
guage._ He thought it most desirable to encourage the
With language in all our colonies, as he believed it to be
the strongest bond of union that could exist between the
natives and settlers. (Hear, hear.) lie considered it was •
great error fur the missionaries to have reduced the barba-
rous native dialect of New Zealand into a written immune,
suitable to the purposes of civilised man. Ile th..ught after
a reasonable period the rule requiring reading and writing in
English should be enforced so a qualification for any muni-
cipal or political office; but at present it was desirable to
suspend this rule, and the bill therefore contained a clause to
that effect. The period, however, of suspension, would beleft
to the decision of the governor and the legislative council.
He had purposely abstained from introducing any topics not
immediately connected with the actual question before their
lordships ; but he was quite prepared to answer any rem
rarks
which might be made by any noble- lord upon any othe
topic connected with the colony of New Zealand The noble
earl then moved that the bill be read a second time.
Lord STANLEY must cones that with every dispositien
to support, when p esible, cthe measures proposed by his
noble friend, he felt some difficulty in the present case •
for be did not see, even upon the statement of his
sable friend, any necessity, for this bill. Had he
been present on the occasion ho should have sanc-
tioned the measure of August, 1846, on the principle that
the less the executive government at home interferes with
the colonial governor, and with the colonial minister, the
better—his principle being, further, that the less the colonial
minister interfered with the colonial governor the better.
Still he regarded the measure of 1848 as a hasty and prema-
ture proposition, not fully adapted to the particular cir-
cumstances of a colony, where the application of special pri-
vileges to a special class of the community was matter of con-
siderable difficulty. and very considerable risk, and conse-
quently involving in the greatest imbarrasament an officer
whose chief business it was to act as mediator between two
muter and origin, and with a tendency
.es as dissimilar also in interests, (Hear.)
concurred in the high eu!o_ium which the
d upon Governor Or v—a culegium pe-
himself as corroborating the opinion
him to select Captain Grey for the
it office he filled ; hut he must, at the
regret that the noble earl should have
fully acknowledged merits of Captain
nvidious contrast between him and his
bear.) He must be permitted to say
not at all timea approved of the mea-
Captain Fitzroy—theugh he thought he
us acted with considerable imprudence—
found it necessary ultimately to recall
a that no public officer had ever been
his conduct liy a high principle of
ast devotion to his country's service, than
been—(hear), who, in undertaking the
a.had made a very considerable pecuniary
r.) It must not be forgotten that
. at the diepcsal of Capt. o:ey, for the
er and the protection of the subject, far
than Capt. Fitzroy had ever enjoyed.
hen the colony was first estanlislicil the
in the distinct priu, iple that it was to be
sorting colony, which o ould re mire no aid,
money, from the mother country ; yet in a
. found necessary to assign to it. on the
country, an annual aid of 36.0001., an
to 2,500 soldiers, and one or two ships
to us that any new settlement—pur-
on its own resources is merely a new
every new establishment of our court-
inevitably the occasion of an increase
' military and general expenditure.
' to Capt. Grey, however, Capt. Fit —coy
of, a circumstar.ce which should never
considering Capt. Fitzroy's administration.•
se great mistake with reference to New
) underrating the power, the means, and
native population ; a mistake, however,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TWISDAT, FEB. 29.
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
NOTICES OF MOTlON.—Pansurawr or F.WART
on the 14th of Mach, to move foe leave to bring in a bid for the abo-
lition of the punishment of death.
TAXATION.- Mr. ewairr,on the 9th of March, to Our the term. of
his motion on the subject of indirect taxation.
EtCLEPIASTICAI. COritrm.-111r. BOUVILIiIL, on the 14th Of MOrel, to
bring the subject of these courts before the house.
LANCASTER ELECTION PETITION.
Mr. DEEDES brought up the report of the select com-
mittee appointed to try the merits of the petition against the
'taunt of Samuel °region, Esq., for the borough of Lancas-
ter. The c tmmittee reported that the said Samuel Gregron,
Esq., was not duly elected for Lancaster, and 'hat the elec-
tion was void; that Mr. Gregson, by the acts of himsi If and
his agents, had been guilty of treating, and that it bad been
proved that briees had been received by several voters, but
not with the Is owiedge or consent of Mr. Gregson.—The
report was agreed to.
CARLISLE ELECTION COMMITTEE.
The followiug members were called to the table, and
sworn in as the select committee appointed to try the merits
of the petition presented against the return of John Di x.in,
Esq., for the borough of ..arlisle Mr. Divett, Viscount
Barrington, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Fellowes, and Mr. Clements.
FRANCE AND THE EUROPEAN POWERS.
Mr. M. MILNES begged to wile the noble lord the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs whether the provisional govern-
ment of France had made any communication to the ambas-
sadors of the European powers resident at Paris?
Viscount PALMERSTON said he had that morning re-
ceived from the Marquis of Nonnanby a copy of a communi-
cation addressed by H. de Lamartine, the French Minister
for Foreign Affairs, to all the foreign ambassadors at Paris,
announcing the appointmeat of a provisional government.
which, however, would effect no alteration in the petition of
France towards her European allies; and that the govern-
ment of Farce entertained a loyal and sincere there to
maintain amicable relations with all those powers who, like
Franee, were determined to respect the right& of nations.
(Loud cheers.)
POOR LAWS IRELAND.
Col. DUNNE, in bringing forward the motion of which
he had given notice, observed, Ireland would never be able
to pay her share of the national taxes until in all respects
she had been placed on a level with the other portions of
the United Kingdom. Every one in Ireland was aware that
the poor law hod failed in Ireland. It bad been called an
experiment ; but he could hardly approve of the policy that
would try experiments on eight miffions of peoplo.
hear.) 'The hon. and gallant member concluded by
moving for a committee to inquire into the working &M.
efficiency of the po. r-law in Ireland.
Mr. O'FLAIiERTY seconded the motion. We under-
stood the hon. member to say that in the west of Ireland
the poor law hail proved a complete failure.
Mr. DRUMMOND complained of the difficulty there
existed of coming to an accurate knowledge of any facts
connected with the other side of the water. (A laugh.) In
the report of the Devon commission he found 340 distinct
contradictions in matters of fact sworn to before that cons.
mittee. (Hear, hear.) Here was a motion for a committee
to inquire whether the poor law was adapted to Ireland.
(No, no, from the Irish members.) If not, what was it ? He
did not see why it should not be adapted to that country, as
it cost much less there than in England.
Sir G. GREY said that although he was far from affirm-
ing that the Irish poor-law was perfect in all its details, or
that local errors of administration had not occurred, yet he
gnat still agree with his hon. friend who had last spoken
that the appointment of a committee would be mischievous,
and likely to prevent the full and fair operation of
the poor law. He confessed that having listened with
all attention to the speech of the hon. and gallant
member for Portarlington could not discover what p
urpose
or object he proposed to gain by the appointment
proposed committee. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant
sesaber's feeling seemed to be, that the poor in Ireland
wad tot be supported without continuous grants from the
I deter country. (" Hear, hear," and dissent from the Irish
members.) The hon. and gallant member urged the lessen-
ing of the area of taxation, on the ground that under the
present arrangement those landlords who employed their
poor were equally rated with those that did nothing. He
(Sir G. Grty) feared that the effect of such sit
alteration would be to withdraw ail relief from those
districts which were unable to support themselves.
lie admitted that the poor law, as it had been administered
in tome parts of Ireland, had failed, and that deaths had
occurred as stated; but it had so failed, not fur want of
funds to relieve the destitution of those districts, but rather
for want of due and efficient administration of those
funds ; and many of the deaths complained of had, be be-
lieved, resulted from the gross neglect of the boards of
guardians. As the hon. gentleman who had just sat down
bad stated, no board of guardians had been dissolved by the
commissioners in which it had not been aboolutely necessary
for the protection of the poet to take that course. The
Cavan union was a case in point. The elected guardians
declared that no rate could be collected, end government
must step in to provide for the poor by other means. The
board was dissolved, and paid guardians appointed, and
though when these entered on their.duties the union was
bankrupt, not having a shilling in hand, arid though these
paid guardians had to obtain a loan of 3001. with which to
comeaence operations, in six weeks after they had coll. cted
poor rates to the amount of 12,0001.., and after prov
i
di
n
g
for a large number of poor within Vie w
and giving out-door relief to betwen 5,000 and 6,000,
they had, besides repaying the loan, about 5,0001.
in hand. (Hear, hear.) He wished it to be under-
stood that, so far from these paid guardians entailing
any extra charge on the rate-payers, in most cases they had
saved money to the union, while they had administered
relief to the poor in a more liberal manner than the elected
guardians. He did not mean to say that in every union
sufficient fonds could be raised by the guardians, if left un-
aided, to meet the destitution. There were undoubtedly
many unions in Ireland in which the guardians and ell par-
ties had cooperated actively and zealously in carrying out
the law. Those unions might, he believed, in regard to the
condition of the poor, vie with any in England—(hear)—
and contained no destitution which could not be relieved
through the medium of the poor law. With regard to the
area of taxation, the only guide he had as to the intention
of hon. gentlemen in this respect, was a notice of a bill for
substituting town lands for electoral dirricts, given
by the honourable member fin Longford, but which had
not been brought on it the time for which it
stood, and which he had since understood was withdrawn,
Now, with regard to the town-land division the house should
understand how the question stood. There were 130 unions
in Ireland, and there were 2,049 electoral divisions, the
average number being 15 to each union. Were the town-
land substituted for the electoral principle, there would be,
instead of this average of 15, with so many separate sets of
amounts, an average
.of 467 divisions as forming the area of
taxation, each returning a member to the general board of
guardians, and each having to keep its noires accounts.
Such a system it must be obvious would be so complited
and inconvenient as to be impraCtiCable. (Hear.) Hcae be-
lieved, in fact, that the idea had been abandoned, but when
they still proposed to reduce the area of taxation,
house understand what was the extent proposed. Be had
stated last year, and he now repeated it, that he was far
from meeting that the unions were not in many cases too
la be islifht add that that 'abject

d", mu, to, motif, " urUrie coneideralon ; and that with ttia eoueurrenee
vrhllL Ewa}
irmstryd the
,Islgmelisuanstsasnof government
oornxissiou ,IwoinPtrdithetobonimndariutueste as
ps rest enured that in any scheme of govern-
ment far New Zealand the native population must be fairly
ellitallealtd. (Hear, hear.) That population was as alive to 1,1100,-.ezi
wolengroamongreforrvzhanduathoLeulsewtoeyerainoodiVeollnise,neraith tha:l
re=as any one of their lo ps to his own. No nation ,
a course of lemons in political economy to under- and removing the comequent anomalies in the adentet
seeell the alliatil* politico of governor and governed—(uar, tion oTiEiTaw. 'lle did sot, Miniver, wine It to gel
hem) and the New Zealanders were very far, indeed, from that govemment.contemplated the adoption of the town-land
bete
mum this beast eivilised or intellectual of nations. Of division. He ofd) to
lead
prop aedideaeommittee, because
that the law had
the• may teethe, who had been effectively engaged in its appointment might to the
the mum of the Royal Engineer department in failed, and that it was to be repealed or modified, or that the
the ahoy, none had boon found who could not read, rates were insufficient to rel eve the deetitution of Ireland.
and but one who could not write, his native lan- Mr. A. STAFFORD concurred with the hon. member for
gunge: deers was no drunkenness among them, and Portarlington in thatlwhich_ :rasoulthe animus of hie speech,
they almost all put by a portion of their earnings, which that the property of reland h be made to support the
many althorn invested in heifers, which they then put out poverty of tits country. That was the object for which the
to pasture. (liver, hear.) The noble lord proceeded to present motion was made.. Tie, however, contendekthet by
contend that the bill before them was altogether unneces adopting the electoral division as the area of taxation,
vary, since the act of 1846 enabled her Majesty to alter, add thelandlords who did their duty, improved their property,
to, or repeal such portions of the instructions or orders and employed their tenants, were made to bear the burden
lensed un&r it as should be found inexpedient. Why, then, of supporting the destitution occasioned by the neglect of
me rape! instead of suspend that portion of the constitu- othen.
Wit leblik the colonial governor condemned, and the noble Mr. It. M. FOX (Longford) said the right hon. gentle-
himmlf abandoned ? He concurred with his noble man (Sir G. Grey) was mistaken as to the object of the
=rtn the prop:widen that, more eepecially in a settle- bill of which he bad given notice. It was not to provide foe
meat like New Zealand, where the colonists lived in small the support of the poor of Ireland by a town-land rating,
bodies, separated from each other in many eases by four or but of the able-bodied poor only. The infirm poor he :pro-
fire hundred ini•CA, it was desirable to give each town the posed to provide for by a union rating. lie intended to have
pewee of managing its own taxation and its own peculiar propoted the levying of a tax upon all property other than
concern* ; but as to the firm-wrought scheme of the towns landed, in order to create a fuud to be placed in the bends
electing their councillor', and those their aldermen, and of the poor-law commissioners, as rate in aid of that to
these their mayor, and mayor, aldermen, and council their re- raised, where the other rate exceeded a certain amount but
presentative, to serve in one of two assemblies, the as he saw no likelihood of his being able to carry out his
two assemblies being under one general assembly, and views upon the subject, ho should nut bring forward his bill,
the general assemb'y under two deputy governors, and hoping, however, that the committee now moved for would
the two deputy-governors under a governor ; this elaborate be granted.
system, to be applied to • population of just 16,000 persons,CONOLLY supported the motion.
broken up into infinitely small bodies, separated by infinitely An HON. MEMBEO, who said he represented a place in
large distances, seemed to him somewhat of a farce in :egg- the west of Ireland, declared that be was not individually
lotion. (Hear, hear.) In point of fact there would be no opposed to a poor law in Ireland, neither was the constitu-
electors ,every man would be a person elected—an alderman, ency which he represented ; Year, desired to see • better
at the least. 'The people had dwelt upon the extreme ins- regulated prima establisbed hear) —by which they
policy, the absolute danger, ot seeking to authorise a small would have more of the managemeitt of their own affairs• in
minority of colonists, dwelling far apart from eaeh other, their own hands, and he hoped, therefgre, that the govern-
to impose taxes and highhanded sway upon the native mint would yield to the appeel of the hon. member for
population. immensely superior in numbers, powerful, keenly Portarlington.
sensitive of their rights, of proud and independent spirit. Mr. FRENCH denied, as was alleged by the bon. mem-
(Hear, hear.) While ready to dispose of the occupation of her for Surrey, that Ireland sea. taxed fur the poor al the
their land, for a moderate consideration tied were same rate only as this country. It was, on the contrary,
thotougly impressed, and justly so, with the knowlge that much mote heavily taxed ; for while Ireland was rated for
the right to the soll wee theirs. (Hear, hear). As to the the poor to the eve et of 2,000,0001. on rental of 13.000,00 W.
Bishop of New Zealand, he would say, that the error with England was only taxed to the exteret of 6,000,00 W. on a
which that most excellent prelate had been charged was a rental of 66,000,0001. (Hear, hear.)
most natural error. and certainly one icto which he himself Mr. HUME hoped the government would not refuse an
had fallen. (Hear, hear.) He would only add that he re- opportunity to the I rich members of proving their case ; and
garded the bill ea unnecemary ; yet, as the noble earl dwelt as some of them laudably olitarved, of moveable their coon-
upon it as • step which required to be taken, and as it was, try from being uny longer a herde u to this. The govern.
at all events, a step in the right direction, he would not op- mem would he acting monist their own principles if they
pose ita progress. fused the committee now MOMMI for.
The Earl of WALDEGRAVE supported the bill, and Capt. JONES opposed the appoitement or n committee es
briefly assigned reasons for so doing; but his words were likely to interfere injuriously wiii, op", stem of the law.
smrcely audible in the gallery The hon. member for Itoeconin ttttt• who aupperted the me.
The Earl of ST. GERbIANS wee mtiefied of the sound- tion, was opposed to the law altegielter. and it was evidently
non of the principle of " self-supporting colonies." with the view ot opposing it that he asked for a committee.
With respect to the measure before them he had some Mr. FAGAN considered inquiry to be absolutely Deere
doubts about is detail., and thought the course it prof/coed
airy respecting the mode of administering relief, the Mgr
to take was marcely the best that might have been pursued.
minion of paupers from F,ng and, the charge upon the
He had no intention, however, of opposing the measure.
Earl GREY replied, and declared that between the pre- occup.ier o, which he considered to be too much, and upon
sent governor of New Zealand and himself there was not sever lother minor matters,
Sir J. WALSH joined in entreating the government
a shadow of a shads of difference. to consent to the appointment of a committee on this mat'
The bill was then read a second time.
important subject.
Their lordships adjourned at seven o'clock.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD contended that the returns
made to parliament showed that an inquiry was impe-
ratively necessary. The evils of the present system demanded 4
that such should he tie ease, and that some intermediate
course should at least be adopted. Looking to the whole
operation ot the law, and its results, he radially joined in
the motion for the appointment of a committee of inquiry.
Major BLACKALL also supported the motion, ob-
serving that the time had arrived when inquiry was
not only Sting, hut absolutely necessary.
Mr. ACILION BY implored ministers to consent to the ap-
pointment of this committee. Their opposition to it could
only rest on information received from officials in Ireland ;
and on that ground it was important that other evidence
should he heard.
An HON. MEMBER, whom we did not recognise, said
that feeling the inconvenience which must guise from with-
drawing a number of officers from Ireland, to give evidence
before the committee, he must °peon its appointment.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the law was imperative
as to the appeiumnent ot relieving officers by the commis-
sioners ,• and yet this had been made a serious ground of com-
plaint by the hon. and gallant member for Donegal (Col.
Conolly). It was also imperative on relieving officers to give
relief in sudden and urgent cues; and if this or
any other of the requirements of the law were
not complied with, the commesioners would naturally
he blamed for not compelling the guardians to do their duty.
The hon. and gallant mover teelonel Dunue) had laid
much stress on the state of thine. in the union ot Bally-
shannon ; but this, it should be known, had been one of the
most difficult unions in Ireland to manage. In the Donegal
union, the salaries proposed by the guardians for school-
master, porter, an i other officers, had been so ridiculoasly
small-8/. a year for the schoolmaster, and fd. for the porter
—(hear, hesr)—that the commissioners were compelled to
interfere, otherwise it would have been impossible to obtain
proper officers The enrnmiasion, re had been blamed for
dismissing certain boards of giantism'. Let the house read
the papers on this subject, and they would be satisfied
that the commissioners had endeavoured to perform their
duty in the best possible manner. Ile had always
thought that the Irish poor law would require con-
siderable modification before it was made to work un-
exceptionably , but as yet it was quite premature to propose
any alteration—for the law had net been fully enforced. A
committee of inquiry at the present mimetic would be abso-
lutely nugatory; for when the law was brought into fall
operation, a further and fuller inquiry might become
necessary. The area of taxation was not unalterably fixed;
it might become the duty of the commissioners or the le-
gislature materially to reduce it, but not certainly to the ex-
tent of the town-land only. It was most important that the
house should take care, in stimulating employment, not to
decrease the stimulus to labour, nor to relieve the large
landed proprietors from the duty of supporting the poor.
(Hear, hear.) Let them beware of holding out induce-
ments to clearances. (Hear, hear.) On the estates of
many proprietors there was not a single pauper, them
estates being tilled and cultivated by labourers from couti-
goons districts ; and surely it was not intended to relieve
such landowners from the support of the poor altogether.
(No, no.) But such would be the effect if each towoland
were made responsible for the support of its own poor. The
reduction of the area of taxation was a most difficult ques-
tion, and would demand the most careful consideration
The basis of a well-considered po ter law was most essential
for the superstructure of tee welfare of Ireland ; and it be-
hoved the house to be most caretul lest they should take a
wrong step in the matter by disturbing the existing law be-
fore they were in possession of sufficient informatioa as to
how it had worked and how it was likely to operate.
(Hear, bear.)
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said the appointment of the
committee was unanimously desired by Irish me mbei s ; and
if it was denied by an English majority, it would convince
the Irish people more strongly of the necessity of having •
parliament to manage their own affairs.
Mr. CLEMENTS had heard with deep regret that the
government meant to refuse the committee. The unions in
Ireland were, on an average, three times the size of those in
this country; their extraordinary size utterly prevented the
proper working of the law. He disapproved of the employ-
ment of the paid guardians, and hoped they would be gut
rid of as soon as possible. In some of the unions there were
as many u 12 relieving officers, while in no union in Eng.
land ware there more than six relieving officers. In the
north of Ireland, where the unions were only half the a ze
of those in Connaught, the law was found to work much
better. The necessary effect of too large unions was to
diminish the stimulus for the employment of labour, and to
increase the rate in consequence. (Hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE expressed his regret that the
government felt themselves obliged to oppose the motion for
a committee, supported as it was by so large a majority of
the Irish members. (Hear.) They did so because they be-
lieved that if the motion was carried it would have a ten-
dency to paralyse the exertions of those who were now endea-
vouring to carry out the working of the poor law. on which
the subsistence of thousands was at that moment depending.
The Earl of LINCOLN said he would support the govern-
meet on the present occasion, because he thought the grant-
ing of a committee would be likely to counteract the efficient
operation of the poor law. He thought, however, that the
members from Ireland had grounds of complaint against
the government on this occasion, because every member
of the government who had spoken had given a somewhat
differentexplanation of the object of the commission. (Hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that what he stated was that
the COMIIIIMiOII was not to investigate with • view to change'
the area of taxation as a general principle; but he did not
deny that where the electoral districts were incon-
veniently large, especially in the west of Ireland, they
would be diminished in extent, and increased in number.
The Earl of LINCOLN resumed— Did the right hon.
gentleman mean as a general rule to say that there was to be
no re-opening of the question as to the area of taxation ?
Because if that were the ease the government ought to speak
out upon the subject and let their intentions be known. As
to altering the Irish poor law, in respect to substituting
townlands for electoral divisions, no real friend of Ireland
could have proposed such a measure. If the commission
which the government intended to appoint sou to be a work-
ing commission, then it would effect great good. But he
hoped it was not proposed for the mere purpoee of passing
the whole question by. First let the commission get into
operation and show what it was likely to do, aced then
Bit was unsatisfactory let the present motion be renewed.
Sir G. GREY, in explanation, said that the hon. baronet
the member for Clare was quite aware that he had received
an urgent application from several members for Ireland,
requesting him to nominate a commission to inquire into
the Innprnt electoral divisions as regarded the administration
of the A poor law, for the purpose of reduciog their ex-
tent. He had then told the hon. baronet that he had always
been most willing and ready to appoint such a commission,
hut that, having recently been in communication with the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland on the subject, he expected to re.
emthe from that nobleman a plan already marked out for the
ointenent of a commission and the nature of in inquiries.
Two or three days ago he did receive that plan, and then
he had informed the hon. baronet the member for Clare that
a division of unions might be desirable, and that as he and
others were not able to effect that object it might be done
by means of a commission. But, at the same time, he stated
Not the government objected to any proposal to diminish
I the area of taxation, as that might lead to extravagant ex-
, Padatiolla which could not be realised. All the government
could hope to effect:was, to divide large electoral districts
where they were Mind to be too large ; but they could not

EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 1, 1848.

undertake to lay down rule* for the observance of the tom-
minion, and theiefore, though he would not pledge himself
to such a step, he had no doubt but that the result of the ia-
quiry would he torecommend a division of the electoral dis-
,
'Mr. WAILET said that the right hon. baronet had cot-
fined hit o:planation to the question of electoral divisions;
and the noble lord who had recommended the motion to
He
be
withdrawn had 'leo referred only to the same point.
hoped, however, that on the present, as on recent oceasions,
ministers would see the error of their ways, and relent so
far es not to oppose the nomivation of • committee. After
the statements that had been made that night there was a
greater necereity than ever to nominate a select committee.
When so striking a phenomenon we exhibited, u that of
the Irish members all agreeing upon the motion, it was
treating them with great disrespect nut to grant it. (Meer,'
I hear.) The test applied to the Irish, as it had previously
been done to the E,nglish, workhouses was to render them
as uncomfortable iss possible. (Murmure.) Yes, he re-
peated his assertion. The real workhouse test is
Ireland, as in England, was excessive discomfort ; '
and in order that the teat should be most fully
applied, the guardians of the poor had, he was credibly
informed, sought out the very worst species of food that hu-
man beings could .übsist on, in order to provide that for the
workhouse inmates. (Cries of " Name, risme.") The gen-
tleman from whom he had this information was sitting in
the how* and heard him make the statement, but not hav-
' ing received his permission he could not name him. (The
hon. member for Cork here spoke to Mr. Wakley.) He
was authorised Vs Pay that his informant was the hon. mem-
ber for Cork. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FAGAN rose, and begged to be permitted to state
that he had been informed by a board of guardians in Ire-
land, that as the English workhouses had applied th
eepat m
of adopting the worst possible species of food for t poor,
ID they thought the precedent was one which ought to be ob-
served in Ireland.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that he had visited the work-
house at Cork, and he could bear witness that he wished
to God every poor man out of the English workhouses had
M good food to eat as the paupers at Cork got. The bread
served out to them was as white and as good as that eaten
at the table of any gentleman in that house.
Mr. WAKLEY resumed. The Cork union was not the
one referred to by him, nor could it be, so long as the board
of guardians had amongst theist one se kind and so liberal
beeigted as the hon. member for Cork. The question he
Weald put upon the dietary point was, what was the propor-
tion of animal food served out is the workhouses in Ireland ?
He could answer that question by averring that able-ho led
labourers were for weeks in the workhouse without receiving
,an ounce of animal food. Wee that fit treatment for human
being', whilst the cattle were all sent to England fur sale ?
(Oh, oh.) It might be unpleasant to bear, but what he said
ws asvertheless true. lie hoped the house would nut narrow
the question down to the views expressed by tho right hon.
baronet (Sir G. Grey), but that they would look to it as
affecting the welfare uf many thousands; and in his opinion
the government, so far from opposing the motion, ought to
seek to make the inquiry u searching as possible.
Mr. C. BULLER said lie had hardly thought he should
have had to interfere in the present debate for the purpose
of defending the English poor law, and he did so merely to
show how little dependance was to be placed on information
had at second-hand. The hon. member fee Finsbury had
deplored the intolerable abuses of the Irish poor law, be-
anies, as he stated, the unhappy peasantry were put on a
tem description of food, worse than they bad been accus-
tomed to—the same, in fact, us had been given in the Eng-
lish workhouses. There were many gentlemen present who
were convenient with the working of the English poor
law, and they must be aware of the truth of the honour-
able member's illustration. (Hear bear.)m It had
never been the policy of the Emilish commissioners
to encourage the use of bad food, and when lie told the
house that they were standing out at that moment for four
meat dinners per week in the workhouse., he thought that
very little dread would be felt on that score. But it was a
great misfortune when gentlemen of quick imagination and
eloquence picked up the facts they bad to state in the course
of the speech they were making. (Laughter.) They had
all heard the prompting which the hon. member for Fins-
bury had undergone, and how an Irish union had, in the
course of his speech, swelled from 30 to till miles in length.
(A laugh.) Before an honourable member some for-
ward in that house to complain of the dietary
in the Irish workhouses, he should remember
what the habitual food of the peasantry had
twen—(hear, hear)—in how many cases the honest and in-
dustrious peasant had been unable to get as good. (Hear,
hear.) he lion. member had taunted the government with
!having " harked back" on other questions, and &eked them
Itodoso on the Irish poor law. Ile (Mr. Buller) wished to
ask the House of Commons whether it had 10 far seen the
error of its wile in passing the Irish poor law, as to be ready
hi hark back at the bidding of the hon. member ? (Hear,
hear., Ile asked the question, because it was on that ground
the committee was asked for—it was felt that its appoint.
ment would be a heat y Lbw and discouragement to the p.m
law. (" Hear, hear,' r " no, no," from the Irish m, m-
bees.) Oh, yes, the frith m?mbers of all religions and
polities were unanimous on that point. The broad
plain issue of this motion was not to inquire into
any particular fact, or class of facts, connected
with the poor law, it was to inquire into the working and
efficiency of the poor low in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He
said and maintained that it was deliberately putting the
whole of the poor law again in issue, and its working would
be completely paralysed during the sitting of the committee.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GROGAN supported the motion.
Sir A. BROOKE could attest the lively interest felt in
Ireland on this subject. Ile felt it his duty to support the
motion.
Col. DUNNE, in reply, said that he could not have made
out • more complete case for his motion than that for which
he was indebted to the hon. members who opposed it. No-
body could deny that the poor rates of Ireland were rapidly
absorbieg the property of the country.
Mr. WALTER did not rise to detain the house by any
observations on the Irish poor law, with which he was free
to confess he was but imperfectly acquainted, but merely to
congratulate the government on the fortunate appointment
they had made in the selection of a gentleman as president of
the poor law commission who had had the boldness to assert
in that house that it was not the object of the new poor law
to offer to the poor of this country a worse diet in the work-
house than they could obtain out of it. To sty nothing of
the famous document which had been exhibited in the house,
and which was thrown out as • feeler as to what
lowest diet the poor could exist upon, had the righhon.
gentleman forgotten to what cireumstaoee he owed his ap-
pointment?—had he forgotten that it was to the practice
which was preyed to have prevailed in the Andover union,
where, in consequence of the insufficiency of the diet, the
poor had had recourse to gnawing raw bones to satisfy their
hunger ? (Hear, hear.) Ile (Mr. Walter) was glad to bear
that the hon. and learned gentleman bad, since his accession
to office, been engaged in an endeavour to improve the diet
in the workhouses; but whatever might be the case now,
that could not affect. the merits of the original object of the
law, and he should have been wanting in the duty he owed
to his constituents, and the respect he owed to that indi-
vidual who, while he lived, was always the determined
oppenent of that law, if he had not risen in his place to ex-
press his astonishment at the extraordinary statement of the
hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. C. Buller). (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. WAKLEY,
The house divided, and the numbers were—
For the motion
Against it 16.5-64
TENANT-RIGHT.
Mr. NEWDEGATE moved for the appointment of a
select committee to inquire into the law and custom of
different puts of the United Kingdom, u between out-go
and hi-coming tenants, and also as between landlord
cad
tenant, in reference to uneeheusted improvements or dete-
rioration of land and premiers occupied for agricultural
purposes.
Mr. PUSEY seconded the motion.
Col. SIBTIIORP opposed the motion, it being his
opinion that these matters should be left to arrangemesel
between the parties concerned. He moved that the question
be adjourned till that day six months.
The SPEAKER, however, having intimated that thlll
amendment wee informal,
Col. SIBTHORP moved that the debate be adjourned.
Sir 0. GREY said that certainly if there was to be a de-
bate on the motion, it had better, at that hour of the night,
be adjourned.
Mr. PUSSY thought that inquiry on this subject would
be useful.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER, on the contrary, was clearly of
opinion that legislation upon the relations in question would
be only leading the agricultural interest still deeper into
the mire.
Mr. W. MILES hoped the gallant member for Lincoln
would withdraw his amendment.
Mr. HEATEICOTE was as much against the suggested
bill as any man, and be thought the clearest way to settle the
question would be to appoint a committee.
SIBTHORP withdrew his amendment, and the
motion was then agreed to.
EXPENDITURE COMMITTEES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER postponed
the appointment of these committees until Friday.
ELECTION RECOGNISANCES BILL.
Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring in thia bill.
The house adjourned at half-past 12 o'cloek.

ELECTION CO NIMITTEES.—YESTERDAY.
BOLTON.—lvidence respecting the charge of
treating heard during the entire day.
LANCASTER.—DECISION.—Having heard Mr. Ser-
jeant Wrangham in reply for the titling member, the room
was cleared, and the committee came to the follow* deci-
sion :—That Samuel Gngson, EA., was not duly elected as a
burgess to serve in parliament for the borough of Lancaster.
That the late election (in so far as it regards the return
of the said Samuel Greron, Esq.) is a void election.
That the said Samuel Gregson, Esq., did by himself or agents
commit acts of treating for the purpose of unduly in-
fluencing the electors. That it was proved to the com-
mittee that John Hartley had been bnbed by the payment
of 21. 10s.; Richard Carson, with the payment of 31. 10s.;
Thomas Wood, with 11.; James Dodson, 21. 10s.; Robert
Ilad,eio, 21. 10s. ; but that it was not proved by evidence
that the said acts of bribery were committed with the know-
ledge or consent of the said Samuel Gregson, Esq.
LYME, REnte.—Mr. Serjeant Wrangham propeeed
to conclude the petitioners' case by calling Sir F. Kelly to
answer upon ostb the charges of bribery that had been made
against him.—Mr.Serjesat Kinglakc objected, on the ground
that Sir F. Kelly was a party to the record.—The cornraittos
decided that Sir F. Kelly could not be exaathied,—The
committee Man adjourned to this day.

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