The Express.
London, England, 1849-05-03 00:00:00

Sir G. GREY would ask the liscontlemea if he could
prea
the an instance of any legal being taken against
• clergyman for abstaining treat Off ? (Hess, hear )
He meant abstaining from tab in the church of
England, if he 'atomise& a us objection to do
so ? 01 come, if he retained say peoferment or living be
mast perform the duties Attu:Wag to its bat is was open for
any man to abstain from taking any active port la the minis-
try without bolos compelled to separate from the church
altogether.
Mr. SPOONER mid he knew an butanes of a clergymaa
who, foiling that he could not oonsoiendously remain in the
church, bad left it ; bat afterwards, tMeldag he was wrong
leaving the death, and his conscientious scruples being
removed, he bad retuned to the church and had become
cm of the most useful members in it.
Mr. W. J. FOX could supply the right hoc. kismet with
•me precisely in point—that of John Wesley. Though he
might set have been exactly presented, he wog; In
the psalm fa which the right hem. baronet no
clergymen Whets pissed. He eased hem his la
the ibureh, yet Making his masaltmeMp of tholliMmreb, sad
his attnelmeat Wes ; sal zee
admitteely iseerelor, bat the ea-
tire body el theleyan Mrelhe Weir
of its busier, was melody la the ems
certain emblems different from that shank it wee yet idia•
practise to repair, once • year, to their peril amen to se-.
wive the ihilialmits hadimtlag by that eimiem that what-
ever might
_be the Ogled mime ad ask inesisism Mm the
choral' efd it was use swab •me se abegeffiert die-
solve their einnes4n with its communies. &sae esdadia
arose, he theoght, in consequeses of desseibiag eitsweimma
and dhemlieli es bodies between whisk it was reel* Maras
a dieting& Imo eldroarestlas. The dmedi allured a Waft
latitude to Os niewasers whithft did use snow to its giblets's.
But there were may who might desire, from the me* sem-
scientious sestivekte retain sae character, but est ta au-
dun the Ohm Take the ems of John Mikes. He was
prevented in his youth from entering the church of England
as a 'Mister, bemuse be mould not, as he says in his writ-
fte. skis himoif Niue " Yet he bad no desire to break
gelds ounsftis• with She cheek as one of its members.
These sad kindred unpin were entitled to respect, and he
thought his hen. Mond (Mr. Benveris) is big own esti-
mate of the grievous, bed net shown that the remedy he
proposed was ananmasuate with it. Men might demise to
retire from the mishap ea other than do ..saal grounds.
A person taking holy orders early in_ life Weft afterwards
feel that he was sot quailed or suited for the
ministry. Various motives influenced the minds of parents
in diming professions for their some, and it often
happened that .the profusion *elected was that to which
the party was the least adapted, and that it beanie seas-
eary-file the afterwards to alter his views. It was but the
other day that he read the following advertisement :—" Pro
vision for :a son in the church, the next presentation to a
living, the incumbent aged 76, population of 150, glebe 60
acres, value 3001.," and so on. ft was in this way that many
• yours g man was led into the church, and if of he
found he was sat for it—U it required duties which he had
not the mural energy to discharge, what more honourable
thing than for him to retire / But unless this hunt:union
were agreed to, relief in suck • case could not be granted,
though he was in every respect as much entitled to it as
those the bill sought to relieve. By keeping individuals
against their will in • profession which more than any other
reqnred the devotion of the whole heart and soul of the party
embracing it to his duty, the character of the church was
degraded, and those feelings which it was the object of reli-
gious observances to promote were obliterated, if not entirely
destroyed. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY observed that if he rightly understood it,
the proceedings against the Rev. John Wesley were not to
compel him to officiate in the church, but to prevent his
oftleianog in it. (Hear, hoer.)
Mr. BOUVERIE wished it not to be inferred that he was
opposed to granting relief in such eases, but to the ante&
lag upon this bill a provision which he felt would defeat it
I mibird,,,,,,,.
.Mr. ACILIONBT—It had always appeared to him de-
grading to the ehurcb, the having men in its pale wholly
mat to officiate in its communion. He had seen men in
the church who were actually • disgrace to it. He should
support the amendment.
Mr. G. THOMPSON would cordially support the instruc-
die, and hoped, if the bill were passed at all that it would
give a fall measure of relief to all who entertained conscien-
tious maples on the subject of aemaining in the church as
mialaten. If the motion were lod, he should be disposed to
throw out the bill altogether.
Mr. &dust TALFOURD dialled altogether from the
hon. gentleman who had just sat down. If the instruction
to the committee were carried, it would impose upon him
great difficulty as to supporting the bill, iassmuch m that in-
struction involved tions of avert' serious description.
If they permitted every young man, as had been suggested,
to take upon himself holy orders as a mere experiment—
(hear)—not with regard to Ms ultimate atom for the Miss,
but as to his success in that as in any secular employment,
they would withdraw from the entering on holy seams
that check which required the gravest couidersMon wpm
the pert of those who were candanel for them not to taker
a step from which they could sot draw back without weigh-
ing all the conseqaences ,• and this bill, which was intended
to relieve these who desired to ram from conscientious
churchmen to conscientious dissenters would effect altera-
tions of • much more serious and important character in
the law. (lieu, beer.)
Mr. ROUNDELL PALMER agreed with the observa-
tions of hie hoe. and learned Mead and could net refrain
from entering his protest against the ;miner in which it was
proposed to interfere with the constitution of the Church of
Ragland. (Hear.). The church was a religious societ.y, and
its inherent principle was, that those who took the so-
lemn vows of ordination should be subject to them as
long as they continued members of the chuck. It would
be a gram outrage to the feelings of all who regarded the
church, not ea a mere state institution, bet as a society having
certain doctrines and certain diecipline, to interfere in an
arbitrary way, and say that those who desired to leave
the church, but not to become dissenters, should remain
members of it, and exempt from all the vows they had
made. (Hear, hear.) The practical grievances suggested
by the hon. member for Oldham was not of a person de-
siring to telinquish his nunisterlal office, but of one who
continued his ministerial labours, but not according to the
doctrine of the church cf England. He trusted that the
house would never allow in a bill which had been read for a
first and a second time to be introduced incidentally • prin-
eiple entirely opposed to that which was intended when the
bill was first brought in. (Hear.)
Mr. CLAY was not prepared to give any opinion on the
=lpie involved in the amendment, but should you tilltle
ass he believed it would interfere with the ran of
a specific remedy to a specific grievance.
Mr. BRIGHT said the proposition of the hon. tad
learned gentleman opposite would entail a very great hard-
ship upon the members of tbe Church of England, because
it stated that the established church was a power in some de-
gree opposed to the civil subjects of the realm. Now, if a
member of the established church became a minister of that
chor', and wished to retire, he might have some good rea-
sons for that wish ; and parliament should not permit any
power to prevent his retirement. He believed that a great
many persons entered the church in the same manner as
others entered dissent* bodies, without that solemn consi-
deration to which reform's had been made. Many entered
because their hullos held peehemsnte, end them persons
might afterwards have the most solid grounds for wishing
to retire. A man, for instant" might be unit to discharge
bill duties, or he might have as bloom insufkiently
mull ; and, therefore, he might desire to retire, and
to enter mate trade or prefeedon ; and the hum ought
not to snow the man who bad made his election to be pre-
vented by any power from following
those useful sad ho-
nourable occupations whisk are open to all dames of the
Queen's subjects. (Hear.) Now, it was on this common
ground of not denying to any man the civil right to make
such change in their probation as they pleased, that he
would support the instruction of the hon. member (Mr.
Lacy). He confessed that as a dissenter he had not the
slightest feeling in the matter. He believed that all the
members of the church were infinitely more interested in it
than dissenters, and that if the truth could be opine to it
would be fond that the clergy themselves were most anx-
ious that the proposed alluvia= should be carried. The
bill was not tor a specific object. If it wen for a specific
object, the house should carry out that object consistently
with civil liberty, and thereby promote the greatest amount
of geol.
Mr. GLADSTONE mid the hon. member far Manchester
was mistaken if he supposed that the church interposed any
power she possessed to prevent a man who had taken minis-
slid sown from following any occupation ha pleased. The
chunk had never persecuted any man who had mowed hie
ministerial labours. Tree it was, that a person who bad
taken holy orders remained • clergyman, in the sense the
church put epos that term, and in virtue of them was sub-
ject to certain disqualifications; but let the house understand
that these dieriAmtions did not arise out of the church
law, but out of the statute code.
Mr. EVANS was of opinion that the bill would be ineffec-
tive for the purpose intended, unless the instruction wen
canted out. •
After a few words from Mr. A. Hors end Mr. LACY,
The home divided—
For the instruction
132-67
Against it
The house then went into committee on the bill, Mr.
BIIXAL in the chair.
Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to, with verbal amendments.
On clause 3 beinjimpd, " Person making declaration
to tree to nit copy
Mr. HENLEY apres:ed a bops that provision would be
made with reaped to Mime Instein who had transmitted
lettere of anises to disk dismisses.
Mr. BOUVERII *Mud to wreaks, the suggestion.
The clause was the. agreed to, as were also clauses 4,6,

- -
and 6.
Os clause 6, No. 2, being proposed " And that so clergy-
man shall be prosseated, or proceeded against, or punished,
am held liable in any action for sr otherwise, in any
mut, for refusing to atimiaister my rite or sacrament of tae
%sited church top, in respect of any such person ;"
Mr. FOX objected to it, m being most persecuting and
Medially' towards a seceding clergyman of the established
theist, sad would even prevent him from solemnising mar-
Mr with a member of that church.
Mr. WALPOLI said the hon. pntlsmaa was in error.
The clause would bete him in rely the ems situation
as other nommbemista
BOUVIRIE said the elms bed been sided by the
committee. Hems of opinion that the disseadng slag's=
should be plated in the position of Mime diseentses.
Mr. PRTO thought the clams eltogether naseessmary.
Mr. GIiADSTONfI said that the slams had been unani-
mously tipped in committee. aztirealmabill they were about
to give direst a sew chancem materiel that by as
kw mild they plus • seestliei be
in the same poi-