The Express.
London, England, 1853-02-24 00:00:00

p

THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 24, 1865._

very good reason. Protestantism was making great pro- with regard to Maynooth bad failed. The avowed object
gress when the order of Jesuits was founded, and they ac-
,of that pest statesman was to put an end for ever to the an-
rested ih g egreii. They were aim opposed by seversigas, sad dismission on this subject. (Hear, bear.) His wish
and Why ? use the Jesuits, had always ben sup- was that they 'timid not every session ;mete two valuable
porters of the derneeratic psinctiple, and they were nightlife' abusing each other's religious doctrines. In that
the first to promulgate the axiom that alli power Sir Robert Peel bad certainly failed. How "odd they es-
proceeds from the people. He maintained that no order of pect the people of Ireland to be tranquil it the house
Fes men had. dose so much for social order and the adapted resolutions which placed them ander a ban and
'lithe oomsaanity at large as thatisartmaligned order, put a stigma upon their religion ; and if in consequences of
Awaitscal opinion of certain hon. gentlemen they
IA. b. XILIJI diddled say desire to attack the Ro-
could not do them justice in a matter of pounds,
,ausaands baa . oho notice, a., and pen ? (Cheers.) Hs would not condescendshawl
Was}
wow ao tbsag~t Est smiaa as a ...wiz, awn the hon. member's (Mr. Spooner's) imputations. Om
wee4egradbrite the Itemnwinity. In milli on_ would have unwind from his speech that the cathoHe re-
etase pail,..
.rt,!tia, ha had ewe the „Amy manolana ligion w.e something new, and that the educated gentle-
of that system; and be, for one, would never participate in men of England bad to learn what was the religion
say measure which should hare for its object to en-
of their forefathers, under which they had acquired
dow any institution which was founded to maintain
that political ascendancy, and all that upon which they
that system, which he believed in his conscience were accustomed to glofify themselves. He would n
to be prejudicial to the well-being of the people. enndescend to vindicate the church, of which it was the
They heard much in Ireland of religious equality, but en- greatest pride to be the obedient child. (Laughter and
(lowing this institution was not religious equality. He be- chars.) The hon. member for North Warwickshire bad
Hosed there was much truth in an address presented to made out no ease whatever against Maynooth—all his argu-
the city members at the election in „July, which stated that meat was against the catholic religion. Any charges against
no meet in Ireland but the Roman catholics had the privi- 'he management of Maynooth he (Mr. Lucas) was ready to
lege of having their priests educated at the expense of the I meet ; but the hon. gentleman's whole cue was, that May-
State. _ _ 'tooth could not be a good catholic college because it was
catholic. f" Hear," and
_cries of " Divide."). He would
. .

Mr. J. BALL considered that that house was not the
proper arena for theological discussion. The College of
Maynooth was just the same with regard to the educa-
tion it afforded that it always had been. It did not object
to inquiry, but rather courted inquiry. He objected to
this subject being discussed in the tone is which it was
discussed last night. The object, however, with which
he rose was to appear somewhat in the cha-
racter in a witness, and to entreat those who would vote
for the abolition of this grant to consider well what they
were about. Statesmen had to set en the great principles of
justice and expediency; and this was no question of grati-
tude, but of justice.
Lord LOVAINE said the honour and good faith of the
legislature were bound to continue • grant of this kind,
unless it could be shown, on mature and full investigation,
that it was proper and right that the grant should be with-
drawn. This it was not proposed to do, and therefore he
could not vote for the motion.
Mr. FORTESCUE was glad that the hon. member for
North Warwickshire had not moved for • commit-
tee of inquiry. He did not think that this
country would lightly retrace its steps. He did
not think it would have been easy to have revoked the
settlement of Sir Robert Peel, nor did he think that the
result of the examination would have been to confirm the
charges so recklessly made. He believed the investigation
would have shown that the college had been going on since
1843 very much as it had been going on before, but
with great r respectability and comfort. He could die
between the protestantism of the heart and the
protest:indent of the vote—the protestantism of party which
could rush in where the protestantism of true religion
would fear to treed—(cheers)—and he should vote against
the motion of the hon. member as the offspring of the
former rather than of the latter. (Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY thought it high time this question was
Nutted, for every hour which intervened only kept open
and irritated the sore which the settlement of 184.5 was in-
tended to heal. That being the case he would not have
risen to prolong this debate bad he not thought that it
would not be satisfactory to the country if it closed without
any member of the late government expressing an opinion
upon it. He would at the outset recur for a moment to the
circumttances under which this grant to Maynooth originated.
It owed its birth to times when the penal laws were in force,
and to a legislature which was exclusively protestant.
(Hear, hear.) He (the noble lord) did not feel that there
was much weigh; in the arguments which had been
grounded on the existence of a real or supposed compact
entered into between the Irish parliament and the imperial
parliament at the time of the union ; but it was, neverthe-
less, the fact, that the great had been adopted without op-
position by the imperial parliament. Nay, it had even
been increased from 8,0001. to 9,0001.—a small sum, it wee
true, but still important, as showing that the animus of the
imperial parliament was not that of men who felt them-
selves bound to the literal performance of a contract which
they disliked. It was true that during the last half eau-
tory the grant was merely an annual one ; but that mob
the case still stronger, because if at the Amiss
a permanent endowment had been made, like that
of 1845, it might have been urged that the successive par-
liaments had not committed themselves to the principle.
This feet, however, was, that every successive cabinet and
every successive parliameat down to 1843, had adopted the
put and given their sanction to its principle. Now what
he (the noble lord) wanted to impress upon the house was
this: namely, that they could not replace the question upon
the footing upon which it stood previous to 1845. (Hear,
hear.) There was only one cam in which they could fairly
votefor the repeal of the Endowment Act of 1845 • and that
wee if they could persuade themeless that the @lrma.
shines of the college had so altered that the of
WI was no longer to be considered ideation milk liep-
meth of 184.5. (Hear, hear.) There were hes. pettiness
who took a somewhat different view of the case. They said
that they were willing to vote for the endowment of the
college in 1845_,_ because they regarded it in the light of an
expenment. 'That experiment they considered had failed,
and therefore they were prepared to continue it no longer.
That was a cline and consistent view to take of the mesa
they could suppose that the endowment of 1845 had beim
granted conditionally; but he seamed he could nee
see anything that could lead Wm to the eonolodite
that any conditions whatever had bees etteeleed to the '
dowment of 1845. ir, hear.) Oa the esumsry, he I
found everything to him believe that the Weed= of
the legislature was that the end/mutest should be uncon-
ditional and permanent. (Hem, bear.) Re mate now to
the amendment. That amendment asked them to 1111111124
to a general expressiwefbehead
le favour of the voles.
tory principle. Now be beamed that there were dram-
Mimes and states of seal* in ebb le that principle might
be net only the best, but Me only pordble one, upon which
to eel. In a new esualry, fee lortinee, it might be both
Idiom' politic to pima all relidess en a footing of perfect
eguelley, and to adept the voluntary principle ; but how
wee that principle to be applied here ? Was their declare-
Wm be be retrospective or prompt:ire ? Wu it to be applied
fel, to annual grants, or was it to be extended so as to pro-
siness all ecclesiastical property the property of the state ?
If they asserted that. it would involve nothing short of the
entire subversion ei neheiestisel establishments—a matter
of for too grave impeelenes to be discussed as a mere sup-
plement to another debar. (Meer, hear.) If they mint
ion:tesiehe amen insee to the matted grants only, than be
amid but. endows lbst the **et
_al all masa
had bees to put Ineseed been men
needy me the same teediss at the establishinewles end thew
▪ would be sabverling all that bad been dine in favour
the principle at ealigiess equali, upon the
bppollmil that at mime Molest day,tythatmerely might pechaps
weir ,00dve, they iflisldAellne venni uraium el
'geologies. (Rear.) Is the Wiest of lisreearth
be (the wide lord) would net opposed a metim-teris-
quit" bar ms ft was the wedeabeed right of paßi mist t•'
see w Ltihw marl bad V."
tCrisa of " Mel .1 the result of an
at min Mist, than be would lay it dense as a prier
eipho that in expillearibm. —"re 'Arra

(4 ...mil', ants c.
not stand in the way of a division, and he would therefore
now conclude
Mr. DRUMMOND (amidst loud cries of " Divide") said
that his constituents, of every class and degree, had
charged him to vote against the continuance of the grant.
But he would not vote against it, because he would not do
an act of injustice. Let there be a motion for inquire, and
into that inquiry he would go. His constituents, like the
people of England, were not a pack of blind bigots, that
did not know what they were talking of and
cheers)—but what had aroused their indignation was a
statement which had been put forth by a person who called
himself Paul Cullen. He said, " Our venerable hierarchy
and clergy, in the fulfilment of their duties, will inculcate
and direct as a religious duty the selectionurepresentatives
of the people those men who are the best fitted to support
in the Imperial Parliament our religious rights." Now let
them see what Paul Cullen's master called their "religious
rights." The Pope said, "He bath taken this principle for
basis, that the catholic religion, with all its rites, ought to
be exclusively dominant, in such sort that all Other worship
shall be banished and interdicted." (Cheers.) Englishmen
might be coarse ; but they were an honest and plainspoken
race ; and they would say that, for these words to rims
from men who talked about " religious equality," was •
gross fraud and imposture. (Cheers.) If he (Mr. Drum-
mond) had time, he could prove that for the first
time in the history of the church the doctrine'
of the Jesuits were alone authorised. (Hear, hear.)
Let them not shake their heads; let them give him time,
and he would prove that, for he had all the extracts there
—those pocket-pistols, as they had been termed. (Laugh-
ter, and cries of "go on.") No, he would not go on, be-
cause he knew the nature of the adversaries with whom he
bad to deal, and he would not stir one step without making
good his ground as he went. He knew the cleverness of
the Jesuits. He knew that they had beaten a dozen popes,
and he did not suppose that he could beat them. (Laugh-
ter.) Well, he would give them just one sample. Bellar-
mine was one of those obsolete men of whom they had
heard; and Bellarmine wrote "Pontifes potest kgens Dei
mutore." Now, that was • very startling assertion, and the
King of France, after a great deal of trouble, got the Pope
to place it amongst the "propositions. dannabs/es." Well,
how did they get over that? They inserted a word or two,
and said " Pontifez non, eke juskt cause, pant legem Dei
sentare." (Cheers.) There were a dozen instances of the
same kind. (Hear, hear.) Well, he would give them a
few more, just to oblige the hon. gentlemen. (Laughter.)
For instance, they must know that these Jesuits had taught
three sorts of falsehoods ; and one of these sorts was mental
reservation. Pope Innocent the Eleventh, a very good
Pope, tried hard to put down this mental reservation, and
they divided it into pure and impure—one of which they
allowed.
Mr. BOWYER—Where do you find that ?
Mr. DRUMMOND—In the fifth volume of " Liguori,"
page 268. (A laugh.) Then again, they encouraged as-
sassination. The King of Spain turned them out of his
dominion on that account. They said, " They only are to
be accounted as assassins who commit assassination for a
bargain in the shape of a temporal reward ;" so that, if a
man committed murder, and was not pad for it, he was
not an assassin. (Hear, hear.) But this was not the sub-
ject he wished to bring before them. He wanted to bring
before them the subject of witness.. and false oaths, be-
cause it was perfectly impossible to carry on government
with liberal institutions where such doctrines were taught.
" Liguori" (vol. 4, page 384) laid it down that it was law-
ful for a witness to state what was untrue, provided he
added the truth in • whisper that might be heard, although
it was not, in fact, heard. (Cheers.) He (Mr. Drummond)
did not wish to treat this as • question between
Roman catholic and protestant. (Cries of "Oh !") It
was • question of the conspiracy of these men against the
rights of mankind ; and every country was equally bound
to expose and defeat them. (Cheers.)
Lord C. HAMILTON rose and, after making in a tssy
energetic manner a few remarks which were prevented
from reaching the gallery by the loud cries of " divide 1 "
moved the adjournment of the debate.
Capt. MAGAN then rose and sated the noble lord *
whom he was referring when he spoke 61 " the miserable
delegates of slaves ? (Hear, hear.)
The question was not answered.
Mr. MOORE said that his bon. friend (Mr. Leese) bed
abruptly concluded his speech solely in defer** to Ike
calls for a division proceeding from gentlemen ea that Ohs
Opposition) aide of the house.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that on the contrary be bed
called out "Go on " (Hoar, hear.)
Sir R. INOLIB protested strongly against the expel-
'ions which had been made use of by the boa. member
(Mr. Lucas) with reference to the church in Ireland. Lea-
guage mom bitter, more insulting, more unlike what bad
ever been tolerated in the house, he had never heard.
(Cheers.) And it had proceeded from an hon. gentleman
who had only been allowed to take his seat in that assem-
bly after he had solemnly sworn that he would do nothing
to disturb the settlement of the church establishment.
Mr. LUCAS briefly explained that he bad made use of
the expressions complained of by the bon. baronet solely
with reference to the church in Ireland as a political
Union, and not with reference to it as • church. (ta
Mr. CLAY said the cries of "divide " had p
from all parts of the house. (Hear, hear.)
Serjeant SHER thought it due to himself to take some
Make of what had been said by the hon. member for
Math. The hon. member had inamated that if the amend-
ment were carried out to inch** the Irish established
he would vote for it. Now he (Serjunt Slum)
to say that so beg al the eath required of catholic
=l:enounced the law be would not vote for the
t. (Cheers.) He greed with the hon. member
es may subje, but tapes t the hon. gentleman did sot
speak for hint. (Loud chem.)
After a few weeds hem lir J. !snip, the question et
adjournment was pet ami negadved by a large majority.
The boos the. divided 's the 'Agora motion :
irea
162
s
192-30

A. thought, tee, _ in-
quitey s ess—cated—la wt. at least—by members
skits Bemis eked* filth. These peerless ke thought
ere sauddj bat, it they wan award le, he &sold
lime no te legairy. Oa the madary, he sired
advocate it ; lee II amid AIM be deified that a etzersg
did exist swirl the mew, sad the beat posted* mode
Oa which to Owl tbehpnindise was to lay the rafted=
klr and waif* before the public, beetles the
et fib Kest it sight( ban
riglilnd. see 1. assn.)
nibillivel that bah the nu aadygeuasadment
well lie NOMA by a huge sada* ; OR he wee glad to
Ni that lbws we as banger of the tumentasit of WA being
ablu Khan elm be ihsaK sothwaV h hor
Or ltsi.
sahtp of al our ualesieslishsi astablaitsats.
(Obsess. and had Wass' "Divas.")
Kr. LUCAS was sawelai Is &dm* divide.; but ha
Iwo still mere ha hay deeraN diet& until be
lad bid aa apgratalllg of way a hw weeds upsa to
amain mat hi messaleasat. Am Ise the heessr, IS was ,a
seedudes whisk as sae balAtai tbe madmen% be Mee.
=raid he • asemsats=t sad be would ass Vat
the staselosat la hst, it
we me, ibe tetra attain ia •
Illa ball salbbi to amid& at in the memme the
bets. member irse MT. if#4Bl_ bad bat"'
awed evamdmest; hat it wee empemenenM mama
dam diemethei that ft was a reielatra, a_ gnat part of
the Suppers whisk it weld& resew Imola be dictated
solely by • bootleg 40Kmiest eathelisity. (Cries of
" Ka, aft.") It wan hirable missakesteed tie het,
that the liberal iteadkasala et a pad meg memilse
ln Begland and Ordeal wore jar as
would
pseebelt eatbsifdly es them hoe. gestressa who
evert the melba et the hen. mambo, he North Wu-
lff* Olk. Lame) had taken a little pains to
huh drunk fat intsemer g Negate: " Dod's Compaaion,"
and bid stambisd ea the mars of Mr. Rieaakd, the
rm. masker dun Perth, who was said to be " A liberal,
sad eggs* to th. Mayne** av t." (Rear, hear.) Re
(Kr. Leese) bellhepaathat hem gmalemea, who
had delimeed se = a ire* Ike other ails weer a
fasip gatellsa al religious Isea. weal have limeared
the how with his views alma Ode lassie. of dsinelis re-
deem treed= ; bat he regarded Ile be.. mater en an
=et a elms. whom miss week' le glees Pm die
An appeal bed beta made to the aikido
menhass by as hen goademea tube esperrted lbe masa&
Pand Wile bad said that der, e te M see
le naive this " punt' et WOW.
it he (Kt. Dams) was awabeaVribeaS: robbing
them et" as isanisass debt et Judea, he one he
weld sever keep, and he the dam
ea dusk gratitude which, eallitaralletailk thin bawdy
ease, hod been attempted to be set R; hat be did at* ogres
with the abstreet views that bad dictated the 111111.11.11 A,
ea the greaad of volontaryiem Why it did not emu deal
with the question of Region's Dome.; and thus, if it were
carried, it would take away the grant from Maysooth,
while it would rave the grants made yearly to the preeby-
Wiens of Ulster. It would not even affect that great
Etl injustice which bad been conceived in fraud and
forth in robbery, the endowment of the established
in Ireland—not by the funds of the state, but by
plasderittg the catholic:l of their own funds. (Cheers, and
odes of Oh.") Hon. gentlemen had made almost an
appeal ad mistrwordiant to the catholic members. They
led begged them not to take the money of protestant., and
yet they had not scrupled themselves to seize the money
which bad accumulated by the piety of their catholic fore-
fathers, to teach doctrines contrary to dime which
the donors had professed. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Lucas)
would admit that the object of Six Robert Peel's legislation

Mr. Spooner's motion was therefore lost ; but it being
pest eta the amendment was not puts and the hones ad-

NEWLY

ELECTION COM-

Yesterday the General Committee of Elections met
again, and appointed the following members to eine on
the following oommittoss:—
Faows.—Mr. G. A. Hamilton (chairman), Mr. J. T.
Deverens, Mr. Samuel Iston, Mr. Granville Vaunt, and
Lord Claude Hamilton.

—Fatt-ss-t-no- i7.-4;:Nrerson Smith (ehairman), Mr. Had-
ard, Sir J. VWien Shelley, Hos. J. W. Pertly, and Sir
R. W. Balkeley.
WATIIIFORD COVNIT,-HCC. W. 0. Stanley (chairman),
Mr. G. P. Swope, Hem Colonel Lindsay, Vieecautt Monk,
and Colonel Harwood.