The Express.
London, England, 1848-04-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, APRIL
The Loma CsaurceLLoa took his seat at 5 &cloak.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
FIRST READING.—Smoke Prevention Bill.
SECOND READING.—Leame of Mines (Ireland) Bill.
THIRD RISADINOS.—Mutiny ; Marine Mutiny ; Eine.
ELECTION RECOONISANCES BILL.
On the motion of Lord MOSTEAOLS, the second reading
of this bill was postponed until Monday.
PREVENTION OF SMOKE.
Lord REDESDALE laid on the table of the house a bill
for abating the nuisance of smoke from ferneries and chim-
neys, which every one who lived in the metropolis or other
large towns must have felt to he a great annoyance and in.
jam'', to the public health. (Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was very seed the noble
lord had turned his attention to the subject, and be should
be most happy to give his assistance in poising the bill into a
law. (Hear, hear.) The bill was then read a first time.
CORN AVERAGES.
The Duke of RICHMOND, in pursuance of notice, rose
to ask a question as to the corn averages, and said it was of
great importance that they should be carrect, as the tithes
were often commuted according to these averages, and many
gentlenun let their farms on the same data. Corn inspectors
were appointed (some ot whom were ladiei, the wives of
electors who had served members of parliament)—and
many of them were very careless in making their returns.
He did not, however, think they wished to deceive the go-
vernment or the country; and he should be glad to know
whether the corn inspectors kept any books of their returns,
and, if so, whether the Board of Trade ever sent down to in-
spect such books' He thought there ought to be some addi-
tional check. There was a general opinion among the bar-
men of England that theca had been great mistakes made in
the prices of wheat and barley. He, therefore, wished to ask
if the noble marquis (Lansdowne) was aware whether those
returns could be depended on, and whether the government
would take some means into consideration for obtaining •
mote effictual supervision over the corn returns. (Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the Board of Trade
was not aware of any inaccuracy in the returns. In many
cases they were made by excise officers, who were very
responsible persons, and there erns no reason to suppose that
the other inspectors had neglected their duty.
BUSINESS OF PARLIAMENT.
Lord STANLEY ought perhaps to apologise for comment-
ing on the mode of transacting the public business of the
house, as he had only for a short period had a seat in it. In
bringing forward the subject, of which he had given notice,
he should be obliged to use very plain terms, and he hoped
that he should be forgiven both there end elsewhere, as his
only object was to facilitate the business of the legislature.
He did not mean to touch on the privets business of the
house, but he wished to direct attention to the mode of in-
troducing and carrying through both houses of parliament
the laws of the land. He had had a seat in parliament for
the last twenty-live years, and within that period there had
certainly been a great alteration in the constitution and cha-
racter of the House of Commons, and also a great alteration
in the feeling in which their lodship% and the other
house of parliament were regarded by the public at large.
There was now much greater attention paid to public legis-
lation threughout the country than there was some years
ago; but in proportion to the increasing knowledge there
was also a eon• ral soil self-complacent belief on the part 01
almost every individual in the community that he himself
was a fit and competent judge of every measure that
could be submitted to that and the other house
of parliament. There was less deference on the
part of the public for the individual and collective
opinions of their lordships, and the representatives of the
people in the other house of parliament. In the other house
a great change had also taken place there was a far greater
independence at private opinion, and a far less deference to
the authority of those whose experience and station gave
them • right to speak in the other house of parliament, than
there used to be when he fint had a seat in that house.
There was also, and he rejoiced to see it, a much closer con-
nexion between the representatives and their constituents.
The elector* watched their members more closely, and perhaps
they required too frequently that the representatives should
submit their own judgment to the preconceived opinions of
their constituents. (Hear, hear.) The representatives sought
to recommend themselves to their constituents by increased
!peaking, which did not at all advance the public business.
They had a great desire to see their names in print, but it
did not tend much to the edification of those who listened to
their orations, and still less to the advancement
of the public business. (Hear, hear.) An adjourned
debate some years ago was a rare thing, but now it seemed
to be the rule and the conclusion of a debate in one night
the exception. (Hear, hear.) Again, it seemed to ate
expected by the public that the government should provide
remedies for all public grievances, real or imaginary which
greatly increased their labours, and caused an additional
responsibility to be thrown on them. But the government
had also less facility in forwarding their business than they
used to hare. They had but two nights in the other house
of parliament, the remaining three mehts being given up to
individual motions. (Hear, hear.) They had not, in fact, the
command of the two nights, for upon the motion for going
into committee of supply it was in the power of any
member to bring forward any subject he thought proper.
(Hear, hear.) It was necessary that provision should
be made for the financial affairs of the country, and that the
annual Mutiny Bill should be passed before Elder, and
therefore the legislative acts, the law-making, could not pro-
perly begin until the month of May, when the business of
the other house commenced in right earnest. Measures
were brought in by wholesale, and pressed forward with
great haste. (Hear, hear.) They were generally referred
to a committee, and the business of that committee was
either interminable, or, to remove objections and save loss
of time, the government were obliged to submit to various
amendments from different members, to the manifest injury
of their bills ; and these amendments, it must be remem-
bered, were made by members on separate clauses, without
reference to ether pore of the bill, which often led to the
e
greatest absurdities. ( Hear, hear.) bitanres so made w
often, to use the words of Richard," Sent before their five
into this breathing world." They were made up, and that
so lamely and unfashionably, that, if the dogs did not bark
at them, the lawyers carped at them ; and the noble lord on
the woolsack, with the other learned administrators of the
law, must often, in the language of Milton, feel
"Chaos Ala supreme,
And by decisions more embroils the fray."
(Much laughter.) A much larger proportion of Scotch than
English bills was passed into acts, solely because there was
less talk about them. (Hear, hear.) Ile feared their lord-
ships were fast sinking in public estimation, because daring
the first five or six months they had to sit without having
any business to do, and during the remaining five or x
weeks of the session they had a mass of business thrust be-
fore them which it was impossible they could properly at
tend to. (Hear, hear.) They must either, therefore, pass
magnets without proper consideration, or drop them, on the
ground of the late period of the session at which they were
introduced into their lordships' house. The result WU, that
they were often obliged so to treat measures upon which the
House of Commons had bestowed great pains, and they were
oonsewrently regarded by the country as a mischievous in-
tervention, to prevent the passing of good measures. (Hear.)
He did not apply these observations to any particular go-
vernment ; in fact it was a subject which could not
partake of party character. (Hear, hear.) The three last
years would afford a fair example of the evil of which he
complained. The first was under • conservative administra-
tion, when he had the honour of being a member of the ad-
ministration, and he believed that would be found to be the
worst, the greater evil having taken place that year. In the
second year a change of government took place, and in the
third, as far as the parliament could be under the control of
any government, it was under the control of the noble lord
opposite. In 184-5, 130 acts of parliament were passed, of
which 23 originated us the House of Lords, and 107 in the
Commons. Tne bills sent up from the other house of parlia-
ment and printed amounted to 91, and they came -before
their lordships as follows : In February, 1; March 5 ; April,
12; May, 4; June, 9; July, 59 ; August, 1. SO that in
the last six weeks of the session of 1845, no leas than 63 of
the 130 acts, or nearly one-half, were, for the first time sub-
mitted to their lordships' inspection, during the last six
weeks of the session—(hear, hear); and he then excepted
the acts which their lordships did not think it 7
acts neces-
of
soy to print. In the year 1846 there were passed 11
parliament, 12 originating in the House of Lords, and 105 intim II
Commons, of which 26 were not printed, and he would,
therefore, take the remaining 79. Of those 28 had been sent
to their lordships up to the end of June, 15 were sent up
in
July, and 36 in the month of August, so that their lordships
were called on to consider no lass than 51 distinct bills in
two months. (Hear, hem.) In 1847, 115 bills were passed,
11 originating in the House of Lords, and 101 in the House
of Commons, 7 of which were not printed, leaving 97. They
were fortunate enough last session to prorogue on the 23rd
July, which in these times was very unusual—(hear, hear);
and in January they had 2 bills; in February, lithe in March,
7; in April, 10 ;in May, 15 ; making 40 to close of
May. In June 28 were brought up, and in July 29, making
57 bills in the last two months, of which 45 were in the
Wt six weeks, and 28 in the last three weeks. (Hear, hear.)
Now, it was impossible to look at this and say it was credit-
able to the legislature ; sad the consequence was that acts to
amend such hasty legislative measures were constantly being
introduced, and all part:es were interested in endeavouring
a remedy,. '• such an evil. (Hear, hear.) One great
- • that it was hardly possible to cols-
that house, because they would clash
of the other house. He could not tm-
their lordship: house, but he sincerely
louse of Commons would relax their pent.
..t the matter would be taken into considers.
committee who were appointed on the subject of
of the other house. Although he thought it
7.. restraints should be removed from their
measures, be did not wish to see measures
ted in their lordships' house, for he
duty was rather to control the
of the other, the popular branch
and he had observed that bills originated
house were not often very favourably re-
sr house of parliament. Now, to prevent
..he beginning and the deluge at the end of '
would be necessary to propose a measure
ceive the sanction of parliament. He might
eing, that there was no inducement to the
rs of their lordships house to attend, because
ad so little business to do ; and they, there-
well skilled in matters of legislation as they
be. (lieu, hear.) The remedy which he
grant to that house and the other house of
. act, the power, if they should so think fit,
et of any bill passed by the other house of par-
previous to the reference of that bill to a coin-
iourn the consideration of the measure nom a
session at which it could not be deliberately
consideration to an early day to be named in
session of parliament, and that the
at liberty to proceed with the bill as if Was!

been thea sent from the other house of parliament. (Hear,
hear.) Such • measure, he thought, would secure employ-
ment at the:oommencement of the session, and at its clout
their lordships would not have the painful alternative east
upon them of passing measures without due consideration, or
rejecting them for want of time to consider them
meas proures, perly.
(Hear, hear.) And with regard to such so
postponed, he thought it would be desirable that their lordships
should have the power to refer them to some competent legal
adviser to ascertain the bearing %ketone clause might have on
another—(bmar, hear)—and who should present to their
lordships, at the commencement of the session, a legal report
upon every bill. (Hear, hear.) By. such means he believed
their legislation would be diminished is amount and improved
in quality. (Hear, hear.) He had endeavoured to suggest
to his own mind the objections which might be urged against
such a measure, and it would be said, no doubt, that it was
an innovation. He wu not alarmed, however, at the term
" innovation ;" and no doubt, to a certain technical extent, it
would be an infraction of the prerogative of the crown, u
the crown had the power of stopping a measure by proro-
gation ; but he could not believe that any government would
advise the crown to prorogue parliament for the purpose of
defeating a measure which had already passed the Howse at
Commons. Such a case certainly might arise ; but the pre-
rogative would not necessarily be interfereewith, ea the
crown would still have the power, by a short prorogation, of
putting a stop to the bill alter it had posed this house. He
was only anxious to give their lordships the power, on re-
ceiving an important bill late in the session, of postponing its
consideration till early in the next session. He had endea-
voured to asrertain whether the privileges of the House of
Commons would stand in the way of the course proposed.
As he did not mean it to apply to bills for levying taxes, it
could not be objected to on that ground. Thinking their
lordships for their attention, he would lay on the table the
bill he had prepared, and, if their lordships thought fit to
give it • first reading, he would let it stand over till after
Baster, convinced that it would apply a remedy to a great
practical evil. (Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to ray
that he could not arsc de to the first reading of the bill with-
out thanking the noble lord for the attention he had given to
• subject, the evil of which had been klt by so many noble
lords session alter session, and which in many cases had
completely impeded important measures. The first reading
of this bill had his most entire concurrence. (Hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM also thanked the noble lord (Stanley)
fat the introduction of this bill. The subject he thou
nt
t
bad escaped the noble lord—how far an bill of pariame
was required for the purpose. Suppose came up from
the other house in July ; this house had a right to drop
it, and in the beginning of the next session take up the very
same bill and pass it through all its stages. The only differ-
ence from the plan proposed was that the bill must again be
sent to the other house, which, however, had the power of
passing it immediately. It should be remembered that the
three readings and the committee on a bill were not required
by any
.act of parliament; each house might pass a bill at
one sitting if they thought tit to suspend their standing
orders. There was nothing either in acts of rarliament or
the common law to prevent this. Bills might be passed at
once or in a lump, as had been dune by the former
National Assembly of France, which once passed 30 or
40 must important measures in • single night. But,
for the sake of avoiding rash and blundering legislation,
some further alteration in the mode of conducting the busi-
ness of the houses, was abeolutely necessary. He thought'
the greatest possible improvement would be the establish•
meat of a bond of learned and practical men, to revise the
drafts of all bills, watch their progress through the houses,
note the alterations made, compare the bills with former acts
and with themselves to see that the same words were not
used in different senses, so that the acts might not contradict
themselves and each other. At present, the learned judges
were called on to put a construction on obscure passages
reconcile contradictions, and to elicit meaning out of alsiur-
dity—a task which might well move compassion for these
learned personages, and sympathy for the unendurable
labours they underwent in listening to subtle and ingenious
effarts perversely applied to the words of the law. (llear,
hear.) Thus was the public time squandered by the hour
and the day, and there was a great chance of erroneous deci-
sions taking place. Such being the case, a legislator could
not apply himself to a mere honourable and important task
than that of improving the construction of our acts of par-
liament. he was compelled to observe that there uses not
now the same veneration entertained for this hours of par-
liament—he would not say for the other—which existed 20
or 30 years ago. This was ascribable, in some degree, to the
total incapacity under which this house was placed
during the first two or three months of the session,
to apply itself to any useful purpose of legislation. The evil
was assuredly grievous, inasmuch as this house could not be '
said to have any agency in law making t for, when the crowd
of bills came up at the end of the session, the house had only
the option of either passing them as they stood or throwing
them out altogether.
Lord ItEDESDALE would not object to the first reading
of the bill, but thought it involved so serious an alterasion of
the law that it demanded very mature consideration. A
measure might be passed by one house, and suspended in
the other for consideration next session, when it was passed
without opposition, and became the law of the land—what-
ever might be the altered opinion towards it in the house in
which it had originated. This was sufficient to show that
the subject was one which demanded very grave COW&

The Duke of RICHMOND saw no difficulty in carrying
out the principle of the bill, which he thought very desira-
ble. lle believed the noble lord who had last spoken was
needlessly slimed as to the ea .:et of the bill.
The bill was then read a first doh,.
The house adjourned at seven o'clock.

ratory act to prevent hail being taken fur the second offence
if committed while the party was out on bail for a first of-
fence. lie had consulted several lawyers, all of
ahemw agreed
that if atter the act passed ony person, whether mb
parliament or not, should at any public meeting, or at his
own table, say that the time had arrived when without in-
jury to England or her colonies, but with benefit to both, al
eeparateen might take place, and such separation should in
any way affect the style or title of the reissuing sovereign, he
would be guilty of felony. (Hear.) This was a power which
had not been e
nd in mach more aterming times-4a
1795—when the French revolution had set all Europe In a
state of convulsion—when this country was hid of secret and
treasonable clubs, and when the life of the king was attempted.
The time would come when guvernmeut would rue being
thus urged on by a majority acting midis the influence
alarm to piss this bill, which was a monstrous violation of
one of the fundamental principles of the constitution.
Freedom of speech and freedom of the press were the two
fundamental principles on which our liberti.s rested—(hear)
—both et which this bill violated, lie would warn the
house of the danger of enlisting the sympathies of the
people on behalf of these who were guilty of sedition ; and
sympathy always ace =partied undue severity. it was the
duty of government to consider not only the effect but the
cause of the people's discoutent.
The Marquis of GRANBY admitted that there was a
wide distinction between spoken and writteu sedition, and
thought the words necessary as a means of preventing the
offence, and of punishing not merely the hand that executed
the crime, but him who imagined it and incited its commis-
sion. lie thanked the government for introducing this bill,
and for their admirable conduct nn a recent occasion when
the public peace was threatened; but he deeply regretted
that they had not continued their confidence in the almost
unanimous support which they were receiving from all parties
in that house, and had chosen rather to make so important •
concession to the small minority who opposed this clause.
?dr. J. CLAY tied voted for every stage of the bill to the
present. But to this clause he must object, as branding with
felony two crimes which were essentially different, not only
in their megnitude, but in their influence upon society.
Mr. EwAivr took the same course.
Mr. AO LION BY had also supported the government in
this measure to its present stage ; but to those words he
objected.
Mr. BAINES opposed the bill, as establishing, even though
temporary in its character ar. unconstitutional precedent,
which meths at a future period be seined on, to the preju-
dice of public liberty.
Mr. Serj. TALFOURD was of opinion that it was abso-
lutely necessary to retain the words. lie could not but think
that there was a great defect in the existing law, and he,
who had witnessed the distressing scenes which followed the
unfortunate 15th of August, 1842, in the county of
Stafford, deeply felt the necessity of having that de
feet supplied, so as to prevent innocent persons from
being made the dupes of designing age...acre. (Hear, hear.)
Those who had been instigated by Cooper and Frost to vio-
lence cared very little, he would be bound to say, about the
six points of the charter. (Hear) He was of opinion that
those who, by advised speaking, incited ignorant multitudes
to the commission of outrage, were more criminal than those
who did so in written language,
became, in the first place,
(nip those who could read would he tempted to violence by
such writing; ; roused the next place, their pinsions were
not likely to be to such a degree as by words spoken.
(Hear, hear.) It was said that words spoken should not be
taken as evidence on which an offence ought to be
founded, because it was not always easy to hear words
distinctly, and they were liable to be misreported,
But he would beg the house to remember that many convic-
tions for murder had taken place, which had rested on words
spoken. The hon. and learned gentleman who had pre-
ceded him said that a person found guilty as an accessory be.
fore the crime might be punished as a felon. Brat then,
again, the crime of such an accessory coneisted of the words
used. (Hear, hear.) It was said that words spoken did not
constitute treason. Supposing that a person should say to
another, " I will put you in a place where the sovereign
will pass by, and will put a gun in your hands by which you
may shoot her," would not that constitute treason ? (Hear,
hear.) He had no apprehension that freedom of discussion
would be injured by this bill, because it was only
such open and advised speaking as indicated trea-
son in the heart that would be affected by
it. He felt gratitude to the government because they
removed by this ball an inequality teem the law, and did sub-
stantial justice. He did nut think that the guilty instiga-
tor should be allowed to go unpunished while his less guilty
dupes were made the victims of the law. Of the deluded
followers of Frost who rushed from the hills of Monmouth-
Afire at his instigation to be slaughtered, while he like a
coward tied and left them to their fate, which he afterwards
lamented with unavailing tears, not use knew anything of
the " six points." They had no political principles, no poli-
tical knowledge, no political hopes. (Hear, hear.) They
might have some idea of higher wages and less work, and
of those principles which were now agitating the continent
of Europe, and which would, he believed, only end in failure,
disappointment, and distress. But whatever their success on
the continent, he entertained no fears for the crown, the
government, or the church of this country. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. hiOORE expressed kis intention of opposing the
measure, as one affecting every subject of the realm, as giv-
ing too great a power to the government over the free ex-
pression of public opinion, and as opposed to the principles
of the British constitution.
Mr. OSWALD (Ayrshire) said that, if the bill were ne-
cessary at all, it ought to have been continued • permanent
measure. If not necessary, the country ought net to have
been alarmed by its introduction.
Mr. M. tdILNES expressed his determination to mist
the retention of the words " open and advised speaking." •
For his own part, he considered that the insitutions and
good order of this, country were never so secure as at this
moment.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that the opposition of the hon.
member for Pontefract to the government, was a very
alarming proof of the rapidity of his progress in the mose-
ment
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that the compliments which
this measure had gained for the government, and which en-
couraged them in their course, came, for the most part, from '
a most insidious quarter, from a quarter which the noble lord
ought to be assured would spare no means of damaging
him in the opinion of the country. The hon. member de-
remixed the proposed words as of the most fatal eff et upon
freedom of speech. He instanced, as an illustration of the
manner in which ignorant reporters might involve a
speaker in a criminal prosecution, a passage from the Sim
newspaper, in which he was reported to have said that
within a week a hundred secret associations would spring
up, and that he would be one of the first to organise such
associations ; whereas what he had said was simply this—
that he thought it not unlikely that, it open speaking were
suppressed, secret societies might take their place.
lie vindicated the character of the chartists from
the aspersions thrown upon it by a venal press, and
mentioned the case of the Times having denounces a chartist
as having uttered the most seditious language at a meeting
on Blackheath, whereas be (Mr. F. O'Connor) held in his
hand a letter from General Napier, stating that no such
meeting had taken place at all. (Hear, hear.) The go-
vernment seemed under some unaccountable infatuation, to
be making a retrograde movement, at the very moment that
the late absolutist powers of the continent were advancing
in the career of liberalism. The press was to be en-
slaved in England at the very moment that it was
being emancipated elsewhere. lie denied that the term
" advised" was capable of being safely introduced into any
act of this kind. The fact was that this government was
the most truckling to its foes, and moat unyielding to its
friends of any government that ever existed in this country.
That government, however, would find that their very
truckling to the men on the tory beuches on this question
would lead to a (1, aided combination of feeling and purpose
between the labouring and the middle classes, which would
after Easter manifest itself in the form of a pressure of con-
stituencies on representatives which it would be impossible to
resist. This bill had been said to be temporary, oohed the income
tax, but he felt convinced that when once it was placed
upon the statute book, it would become permanent. Under
it the Attorney-General would become a mere tool in the
hand of the government, and those who hurried for Russell,
would escape its penalties, while on the other hand it would
be used as a coercion against the chartists. If the bill
passed, he should not hesitate, night or day, to cry " down
with the base, bloody, and brutal whip."
Mr. REYNOLDS said that in the count of the debate refer-
ence had been made to the year 1795, when a bill of a similar
character had been brought forward by Mr. Pitt ; but on re-
ferring to that ball, he had no doubt that, as far as punish-
meet for words spoken, thin bill was of a more severe and
unconstitutional character than its predecessors. In the
former bill "open and advised speaking" was made a mis-
demeanour—by this bill it was declared felony, punishable
with transportation for life, or for 7 years, in the discretion
of the judge, or as the modification proposed, by imprison-
ment for two years, with bard labour. The former
bill had been denounced in 1795 by an ancestor of
the noble lord now at the head of the government, though'it
did not make by any means so great an inroad upon the
the present measure.
What were
liberties ties
circumstancesor the people
tat asdemand
for could justify the
nre
for the bill? Was there at present anything bordering upon
disturbance in Ireland? In his conscience he believed there
was not. He was free to admit that there was in Ireland •
great deal of intemperate writing and of intemperate speak-
ing ; but the great body of the people were not involved in
either one or the other. There were certainly two news-
papers, the United Irishman and the Nation, both of which
were eery violent and intemperate; but all the other journals
were exceedingly temperate and moderate in their tone. lie
was reminded of the Freeman's Journal as a piece that
published strong articles. lie denied it ; and, on the con-
trary, thought toe Freeman's Journal was as tame as the
Court Journal, as innocent as a mouse, and as polite to the
higher orders as a lady's lap-dog. (Laughter.) This being
so, why was the entire population to be indicted for treason
or sedition by passing such a measure as that now under
consideration, because a few mad-caps had got possession of
a printing-machine, and by violent writing were in these
times following an exceedingly profitable trade ? In other
words, why should the whole of a loyal people suffer for the
misdeeds of these few individuals ? On the whole, he was
convinced that the result of this bill would be to increase the
discontent already existing, and would be injurious to the
public credit of Ireland. lie and those with whom he acted
were not actuated by any factious motives in opposing the
bill, but they felt they should deserve to be branded as
traitors to the people if they did not attempt, by every postai-
ble means, to retard its progress. (Hear, hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL remarked that it was a
somewhat disheartening task to have to explain a clause
which had been explained over and over again. lie
repeated that by this bill no new crime or offence
was created; in fact, it dealt only with that which
was an offence under the existing statute arid com-
mon law of the laud; and the only thing which
this bill proposed to do was to make an alteration in the
steps necessary to be taken previous to trial, and also to
make an alteration in the punishment after conviction, The

observations made by the hen. and learned member for Pee
tafract (Mr. Mandel) had other 'peelers, applied to the law
as it now stood, and this bill only provided the mode of
making the evidence precise, in order to ascertain it the
party charged was really guilty of the offence of which he
was accused, He agreed that the law of sedition was rem,
too vague and uncertain : but this bill, so tae from ague.
eating that evil, would make it more precise, for it weak(
provide distinctly that it would be felony for any per.*
who deliberately wrote or spoke with a fixed and mow
intention and design of :eyeing war, by which he (the Soh,
citor-General) meant raising armed bodies of man, for the
purpose of putting constraint upon the institutions
and counsels of the country or the metierte.
This was all the bill proposed to do, and it did not make the
law of sedition one bit more smingAit than it was at present.
He believed that the operation of the bill would be to pet sg
cad to all prosecutions for sedition, and the real questim
now to be discussed was whether or not it was desirable to
alter the punishment prop wed. At present a person em
witted of sedition was nu; natlablo, but when in prison could
continue to write sedition though incarcerated, and thui he
was enabled to keep up the character of a tort of martyr
Now when in prison the law ought to give power to keep
him silent, that he should not be allowed to commiuneate
with his friends, and so perpetuate the offence for which
he had been COM m itted. Siletnre enforced on such a man would
be the severest penalty that could by possibility be iutleted.
In his ointlien, a greot deal of the language which hat beta
used in reference to the probe-le consequences of the bill
had arisen from a sympathy which was eutirely misplaced.
Was it not better to put is stop to language which was calm
laced to mislead and delude the people by the ensemara
proposed, than to wait until it was necessary to act violently
against the people, in consequence of having suffered them
to be so misled.
He woo therefore in favour of making the
bill a permanent measure, in order to place in the hang oe
the government of Ireland the power of interfering to p,
serve the people of th et country from the icflucnce which
bad been exerted against them. But, under any circum-
stances, as it was proposed to enact the measure for two yes,'
only, if any mischief arose from it they need not revive it—
(hear, hear) ; and on the other hand, if the
.neeessity for
its continuance wen apparent, it would be equally easy%
render it permanent in its character. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CAVENDISH briefly explained that certain expel.
sions which he had used in a previous part of the debates_
epecting the hon. member fur Finsbury, had been uttered by
him in perfect good humour and without any intention of
giving offence.
Mr. WAK LEY expressed himself perfectly satisfied with
the explanation given by the hon. gentleman.
After a few words from Mr. WILD in support of the
nendment. the committee divided, when the mambas

were—
For the words
Against 79-109
On our return to the gallery,
Mr. E WART moved, as au amendment, the insertion of
the word " pubdc" before the word "speaking,' in lb,
phrase " open and advised speaking."
The ATTOILNEY-GEN LEAL assured the hon. gentle.
man that the ward "open,' in its legal signiticatim, in-
cluded in its meaning the term "
Mr. EWART stated his wil,ingness to withdraw the
amendment alt gather, on the understanding that the clone
should not apply to any, speaking which was nut addre.sed
to a meeting excee.liog fitly persons.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to suggest that the National
Convention consisted of 49 members only. (Loud laughter.)
After a few words Irons Sir 1). L. EVANS in support of the
amendment,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had hoped that the tea.
mittee more generally understood the purport of the bill.
It was not a bill against general and advised speaking si
public meetings, but a bill against certain offences now nom.
prehended under the term of Isiah treason. (Hear, hear.)
Toe hon, gentleman had proposed an amendment, according
to which, if it were adopted, a treasonable pan to carry out
the invasion of the country might be proposed at a meeting
of 49 persons, and might be sent forth as the plan of that
convention without the hazard of any punishment felling
upon its proposers, merely tecause there were not Ninnies
present. (Hear, hear.) Nuw he should certainly rote
against the preposition of the hon. gentleman.
After • bile' conversation, Mr. Ewnar withdrew Ins
amendment, but expressed his intention of moving it in the
shape of a resolution on bringing up the report.
'I he CII AI ItalAN said that it was proposed that the follow.
ing proviso, of which Sir George Grey had given notice,
should be added at the end of the third clause :
Or to be ittlltislollCli for any term not exceeding two pars, witk
win:tut bard labour, as the court retell direct. Provided always, sad
be it enacted, that no person *mill be presecutml by virtue of this.{,
for any words spoken unless info: manna of such words be pain
upon oath to um or more Justice tor justices of the radix within three
days after ouch words spoken, and the prosecution eg such offence be
within three months aster such information, and within two year,
after the passing of this Jet and that no person shall be convicted by
virtue of this act fur any such words spoken but by the oaths to tin
credible witnesses.
Mr. /LINDLEY suggested that the fact of informations
being lodged against • party should be communicated to
the accused persona within the three days of the alleged
speaking, as well as to the magistrates before whom the in-
formations were swore.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the inform-
dons should be sworn within three days tram the time of

speaking.
Mr. HUME was inclined to think that it should be in.
perative on the law officers of the crown to give intimuir
of the filing of informations to the sccusea parties.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR reiterated the suggestion of Er.
Hume that the party accused ought at once to be furni•Led
with the copies of the depositions and the names of the en-
uresis, as otherwise an accusation of this nature might sleep
for ten weeks and then might be suddenly revived after the
accused had totally forgotten the whole transaction.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that by the law u it
stood parties were entitled to copies of depositions and name
of witnesses in prosecuting for high treason.
IiIN DLEY understood Mr. F. O'Connor had stated
the law correctlyss it would stand iu the hill.
Mr. MARTIN would take ti.e sense of the committee on
the point raised by Mr. F. O'Connor.
Sir G. GREY urged that if notice was given to the party
accused he would have time to escape.
Mr. MARTIN : Then make the two proceedings center
poraneous. Hold the accused to bail at the moment that
the information is laid, and don't let it sleep for weer while
he is unconscious of any accusation being made him.
Mr. DISRAELI said thee the object of theadvocates of
liberty seemed to be to have as many of their fellow-subjeets
arrested as was possible under the act.
Mr. Ald. SIDNEY said that a magistrate ought not to
have the option of issuing a warrant for speaking seditious
words ; but it ought to be made imperative on the facto(
spoken sedition being brought under his notice.
Mr. BRIGHT approved of the suggestion made by the
hon. member for Pomfret for altering one clause.
Sir G. GREY said that nu amendment on the proviso had
been yet moved.
Mr. MARTIN moved that the words " A summons a
warrant do issue" be added to the proviso. The wording of
the clause was exceedingly obscure.
Mr. MARTIN recited h.s amendment, which was to the
effect that the summons or warrant upon the itiformation
should issue forthwith.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected, on the grounds
that a party might offend once by " open and advised
speaking,' and it might not be worth while to prosecute,
but if he frequently repeated the offence prosecution might
become necessary.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR—It appeared, then, that the bill pm-
vided for cumulative felonies. Every explanation ohs
learned Attorney-General gave only made confusion war
confounded. (blear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY said that every step taken in the
toll
only served the more plainly to show its dangerous and us-
constitutional character. He could not look upon it as any
thing but a trap to catch the unwary. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mid that
under the bill parties would not be indicted for words, hie
for the intent. (Oh, oh.) If the hon. member lookel upon
the proviso's/ a trap, the better way would be to leave it
out, and then the party indicted would be w immediaten
if his words had been taken down and recorded ly
upon their utterance.
Mr. HENLEY was not satisfied by the explanation of tha
Attorney-General. He thought that the moment Worms-
tions were received a warrant should issue. Nothing could
be greater tyranny than to keep a man's case hung up ia the
manner contemplated by her Majesty's ministers. (lieu.)
Mr. W. H. MOORE also protested against the un co nsti-
tutional character of the proviso, as explained by the los
officers of the crows.
Mr. R. PALMER said that, but for the explanation of
the learned Attorney-General, he should, as a rasgierna,
have thought it his duty to Moue a warrant immediately ce
receiving an information. Any other course would, he con-
ceived, place the magistracy of the country in an mental
position.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that this proviso win
taken from the statute of Anne, and all he .:ould do err, a
give his opinion as to the construction of that statute. We
opinion was, that the magistrate's duty was not to rue
warrant upon words deposed, but upon his coestruction
the intent of such words. (Oh, oh.) The charge wan rat
the words, but the " compassing and imagining' which were
to be proved by several things. (Oh, oh.) It was manifest
that the charge, being comparing and imagining, the eri
dente should be kept until that offence was ascertained, et
then that the warrant should issue. For that it sou neer
wiry that words should be perpetuated and recorded.
Mr. DRUMMOND wished to know what eras the augie
trate to do if words were deposed to before Lim? ROW'
to wee not a court of record. (Hear.)
Sir 0. GREY—lnformation might be taken in t'nta
senses—the legal and the popular. (Oh, oh.) lieftar,!t,„
could not come to a conclusion as to compassing 01"
without having a series of facts before them.
After a few words from Sir W. CLAY
AA boa
Sir F. THESIO ER expressed his regret that be o.e---a eta
concur in the interpretation given to the proviso by
and learned friend the Attorney-General. (A .
proviso ordained that no man should be prosecuted
sped of any words spoken. lie apprehenci:d that thrg..
viso referred to the crime indicated in the clause, noet
apt'..
the offence was to be established by depositions before
gistrate. It was the first time ho had heard of depetilif,
sworn to before a magistrate, not to establish an Or_,
but to accumulate evidence which at some future ta2o'a',7l
to establish an offence. (Hear, hear.) He oPlae!,,beei
that the true meaning of the proviso was at onee to 7.
an offence, and not to make the magistrate a mere r
peat
of cumulative evidence. If the latter were the oPlee‘,.
erlaae ",„
the proviso it would, in his opinion, be highly obj
If that was not the object he should object to the pro!mrdoa,
agreeing with the view of the boo. member for Oslo
he thought the amendment unnicesaary. tak,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was willing to tte
construction of his hon. and learned friend, and °PPP`
amendment on the same ground.
Mr. MARTIN thought it intolerable that two short-11ga

• r
111' i to apply a remedy to at
cause of this evil wee tl
licence measures in thi
with the privileges of
gest a remed in then
misted that the HOU&
leges, and that the mi
tion by the committee
'.
1 • the pair& gee
desirable that these Tel
lordships' original met
generally originated
considered their si,
hasty legislation O
of the legislature ; an
in their lordships' hoi
seised in the other he
the drought in the bi
the session, it wout
which should receive
mention, in passing,
younceorrdmsll'impsbraci'fa
their
fore, were not so wet
otherwise would be.
to gri
Pr°w(vby an su
parliament,upon the receipt of 1
liament, and [neva)!
mittee, to adjourn t
period of the sessiol
taken into consider
the neat sessio
i , • house should be at I.
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