The Express.
London, England, 1853-08-17 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING. AUGUST 17, 1853.

Russia of a large military and nasal force on the frontiers of
Turkey, was a most unfortunate step, and has been one
which has given scope for great elven. in Europe, while
'lt km impaled great set-rakes on the Turkish provinces ad-
joining %min. Her Majesty's government when these rip-
pretences home se serious, thought it necesary to give
directions thee the English fleet should leave Malta and ap-
proach As Dardanelles. The French Beet bid • short time
before been sent to the bay of Salamis, but Wry was a perfect
concert between the two countries on this subject. It was
alleged by the French government, and truly, that while
their fleet remained in the harbour of Toulon, it was not so
much within reach of any demand to approach Constanti-
nople as the British fleet was at Malta, and it was desirable
that the two fleets should be ready to act together if
wanted; that allegation was fully borne out by the factor
because when the order was ultimately given to
the two fleets to go to Besica bay, it was
found not only as easy, but more so, to give
directions from Malta and to convey the English
fleet to Besika Bay than to convey the French iloet from
Salamis to Besika Bay. Therefore the two countries acted
entirely in concert, and they have endeavoured in a similar
spirit, by daily and constant communications, to obtain a
settlement of this question which should be compatible with
the independence and dignity of the Porte, and at the same
time should not lead to an interruptiou of the peace of Europe.
The next step that was taken by the Russian government
was a direction to the armies of Russia to occupy the Prix-
eipalities, with a declaration at the same time by the Roe.
elan government that it was not to be considered as an ins
vision of the Princiamlities as an act of war, and that ft was
intended to occupy the Principalities, asa material guarantee
for peace, and as a means of pressure upon the Turkish go-
vernment in order to obtain those moral securities and gua-
rantees which Russia bad resolved to obtain by negotiation.
It was considered by the English and French governments
and it was considered by the Turkish government even be-
fore they had any communication either from London or
from Paris, that it would be desirable, seeing what great
interests were at stake, to forego the clear and undoubted
right of Turkey to consider this occupation as a
castes beU,, and that it would be desirable to
enter into negotiation, if by farther negotiation
peace could be maintained. No actual hostilities
further than the occupation of these provinces by the
Russian forces has hitherto token place. It was the opinion
of her Majesty's government thit while they placed the
fleet of Great Britain in conjunction with the fleet of
France at the disposal of the ambassadors of the two powers
at Constantinople, to be called up to Constantinople in case
of emergency, it was at the same time desirable to gather
up the broken threads of negotiation, and to attempt to
arrive at some arrangement by which the peace of Europe
might be secured. The different powers considered the
various schemes for this purpose, but more especially the
Minister of Foreign Affairs in Francs, a person whose
talents, moderation, and judgment, it is impossible too
greatly to estimate—(cheers)—who, by consideri.bly modi-
fying the objectionable parts of the demands of Prince
Menchikoff, and those parts of the Turkish reply which
the Russian government might think unsatisfactory en-
deavoured to frame a note to which the two parties might
agree. no Austrian government, which had, as I
have stated on a former occasion, declined a proposal
for interference—l should say declined a proposal from her
Majesty's government to enter into a conference on this
important subject—when the Russian government had,
occupied the Principalities, Austria changed her views on
the subject, as she had declared that she should

such a cis*. She pronounced that, in conformity wilt i
spirit of the treaty of 1841, it was absolutely necessary r
the repreeentstivos of the powers to meet in conference and
,to endeavour to obtain some amicable solution of the
difficulties which might otherwise threaten the peace of
Europe. The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Austria took
the proposition of the French government as the ground-
work of the proposition which he made. I have already
stated on a former occasion that it was an Austrian proposi-
tion, but that it came originally front France. That propo-
sition was propos:d to be taken into consideration, I think,
about the 24th of July, and no doubt information was im-
mediately conveyed to Turkey of the intention of Austria.
Her Majesty's government requested to see the note as it
was proposed, with such modifications as the Austrian go-
vernment might think it necessary to introduce. That, or
course, led to explanations, to further communications, and
it was net till the 31st—that is a week after the conference
—that the final conference was held, at which the form of
the note wan completely arranged, and settled to the satis•
'nation of the representatives of the four.poware and of their
respective governments. The house has already heard, and
the intelligence has been confirmed by subsequent informa-
tion, that the Emperor of Russia had given his adhesion to
the note of the four powers. The Emperor of Ramie no longer
insists upon the exact form of Prince Mexehichoff's note,
which accading to some of the state papers which have
been published by Russia would have appeared to have
been the case, but the Emperor of Russia considers that
his object would be attained, that his honour would be saved
if that note, as thus prepared, should be acceded to by the
Turkish government. I have stated already that it was on
the 2nd of August that this note was sent to Constanti-
nople. There has not hitherto been any communication
from Constantinople with regard to the reception of that
aote, but this I will state, that on the 23rd of last month,
the Turkish ministers were prepared to send a note
to Vienna, and, subsequently, to Petersburg,
differing from the former note, and with regard
to which, I think, having agreed to that note, they would
find themselves in a condition to agree in the note which
has met the assent of the four powers. Sir, supposing
what I say is yet unsettled, supposing that note be finally
agreed to, if that communication should be made by Tur-
key, and it should be satisfactory, there would still remain
the evacuation of the principalities. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it
is quite evident that no settlement can be satisfactory
which does not include or immediately lead to the evacua-
tion of the principalities. (Cheers.) According to the
declarations which have been made by the general com-
manding the Russian force (Prince Gortchakoff), that
event will immediately follow on satisfaction being
obtained by the Emperor of Russia from Turkey. I
willing, say further that it is an object which her Majesty's
'ornament wander essential, but with regard to the mode
in which that object is to be attained, with regard to the
mode in which that mad is to be 'vented, I must salt for the
permission of parliament to say nothing further on that
head, but to leave the means—the end undoubtedly, cer-
tainly, one to be attained—to leave the means in the bands
of the executive government. With regard to the question
as to the fleets of England and France, for that of course
UM, cannot be made any provision, because we ought to
have it In our power at all times to send our fleet to
the neighbourhood of the Dardanelles to be ready ;to
assist Turkey in case she is in danger, and not to consent to
any arrangement by which it should be stipulated that the
advance of the fiesta to the neighbourhood of the Darda-
nelles should be considered as equivalent to the actual
invasion of Turkey. With regard to the future station of
the fleet, of coarse, if peace is secured Besika Bay is not a
station of any advantage to the government either or
England or France. With regard to anything further, I
can only say, that while I regret not to be able to state that
the whole of these transactions are terminated, yet I do
think that there is now a fair prospect, that without involv-
ing Europe in hostilities, the independence and integrity
of Turkey, which, from the very beginning of the negotia-
tions I have always stated to be the main objects of the
policy of her Majesty's government with regard to the
affairs in the East, that that object, I may say, will be se-
cured, and that in no very long space of time. lam sure
this house will feel, I know that this country feels, that if
that object can be secured by negotiation without involving
Europe in the calamities of war, it will be an object which
this whole country will value, and upon which we shall
have tenon to congratulate ourselves. lam quite sure
that my noble friend at the head of the government may well
congratulate himself, notwithstanding any attacks that have
been made upon him that by a mixture of judgment and
firMlll4l,l we shall be able to attain the end which we seek.
I will only say we think that this question of the mainten-
ance of Turkey is one that must always require the atten-
tion,
and, I may say, the vigilant attention of any person
holding the conduct of foreign affairs in this country. I
will say further, that I think it can only be secured by a
constant union between England and France—(cheers)-1
and by a thorough and constant communication between
theme two countries. Sir, I have now taken a general out- I
line of the past negotiations that have been entered into. I
have stated the present position of the question. I have
not entered into any argument on the subject. I do not
think this is the proper occasion to do so. If, hereafter,
upon the papers being produced, any member of this
house should think that the conduct which has been
pursued, that the policy which has been adopted requires
lengthened observation on his part, then I shall be ready to
meet these observations—l shall be then ready to defend

the coon• which has been punned, and give the house
such a statement as is consistent with my public duty•
(Chinn.)
Mr. LAYARD said the noble lord commenced by stating
that he bad DO sued to defend the conduct of her Majesty's

government. es it had not been attacked in that house. I
There Out been a very good reason for Its not being at
tacked, for than had been no opposition. (Hear, bear.)
At the some time he had shown no factious wish to force a
discussion on the subject. He trusted the Ammo would
believe that he should not address them on this subject, did
he not feel that he could throw some light upon the
subject. At the beginning of the session he was under the
Impression that a discussion in that house, and a state-
most of the position they were in, would prevent much
misunderstanding on the subject, and contribute to keeping
her Majesty's government in • wise courn. The noble
lord at the head of her Majesty's government on all occa.
sions said that his policy was founded on peace. He did
not think that that was language worthy of the position of
the prima minister of this country. He should say that his
policy ought to be that policy which was for the interest of
this country. If that policy and interest demanded war,
there was not a men in this country who would not gladly
make the sacrifices which war would entail upon him. If,
en the other hand, that interest required peace, there was
ao man who would not make similar sacrifices to preserve
peace. If the noble lord the member for Tiverton had been
at the head of Foreign Affairs we should not have heard
language of that kind, not because this country was for
war, but if we hod shown to Europe that we were deter-
mined to maintain our own rights, and cot only our own
rights but the rights of other parts of Europe its which the
)glance of power was assailed, we should not have been

to the condition in which we now were. And that

contended was the only attitude worthy of this country.
He confessed it appeared to him that in this negotiation two
very grave errors had been committed. In the first place,
when Colonel Rose found, in March in this year, that
Prince Henchikoff had commenced on his arrival to enter
into a secret treaty with Turkey, and at the same time
warned the government of Turkey that if they disclosed
his intention either to England or Franco it would be equal
to a declaration of war, and when at the same time Ituesia
was forming large armies on the frontiers, he did say that
the mere assurances which were given in this country and
in Turkey were not enough. They ought to have called on
Russia to have disarmed; they ought to have made prepa-
rations to resist her if she did not. Then there was a second
mistake. The very moment the Russian government
threatened that its forces should cross the Pruth we ought
to have stated we should consider it • emus bar. If they
had told the Russian government that they would put an
end to true treaties by which it could interfere on the
part of the Greeks if its forces crossed the Prutb, his belief
was that Russia would not have dared to order
her force, to crow that river. As it was, the Rus-
sians bad proved to the inhabitants of the princi-
palities that they could be invaded, without making a
cases belli in Europe. By acting as we had done we had
lost the opportunity of placing these principalities as a
barrier to the further advance of the Selavonic race, and
placing them on their proper footing, and making them a
barrier to Russia and a bulwark of freedom. He did not
think we had gained a victory. On the contrary, he be;
lieved that Russia, without firing a shot, had gained a
victory which was worthy of • great campaign. We had
exposed Turkey to all the expenses of • war; we had
ruined her finances, and we had humbled ourselves in the
eyes of the populations of Russia and of Turkey. And
what had we done ? Having encouraged Turkey in resist-
ing the demands of Russia, having plunged her into these
difficulties, we;now turned round on her and said—" You
shall not make the invasion of the priecipalitise a coma
Belli, you shall accept almost the very terms that were
offered to you previously." It appeared that a draft of the
note which was to be proposed to settle these differences
was first sent to Russia, and that she approved of it. Of
'curse Russia jumped at it, but of course we did not know
whether Turkey would accept it. If she did not Russia
would say to England—" You must fight with
us to make Turkey accept the terms." (Hear,
hear.) If Turkey were placed under this terrible pressure
of course she would accept the proposal. Supposing the case
were reversed, and that Turkey had invaded the provinces
of Russia. Why, we should have forced Turkey to pay the
whole expenses and to make an ample apology. Re said
*hat nothing less than that as applied to Russia would
satisfy the ends of justice. In this question we had placed
Ourselves in the position of a second rate power, cad we had
placed Russia in the position of a first rate power. With
the alliance of France, and backed by the opinion of
Europe, we weft in a position to place this question noon a
solid basis. But what was the result ? We had humiliated
Turkey,:tand we had enabled Russia to strike her a
►low (ram which she could never recover, and
any attempt to make her an independent power
again was utterly hopeless. Why Sweden, Denmark, and
all the smaller states of Europe, which had depended on
the character of thiscountry to preserve their independence,
would see that it was utterly impossible t 3 struggle against
the power of Russia.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said they had reason to complain
of the shortness of the conics on which this question had
been brought forward. After the repeated postponements

of the subject the noble lord must feel that his right hon.
friend the member for Buckinghamshire would have de-
sired to have heard any statement which the noble lard
might have to make. His right hon. friend only left town
yesterday morning, and he thought he would be as much
surprised as he (Sir J. Pakington) was surprised yester-
day, to learn that it was the intention of the
noble lord to-day to make the statement to the house which
they had just heard. Deeply regretting that the statements
of the noble lord had not been more satisfactory, land he
said this without the slightest desire to make these momen-
tous interests a subject of party difference, yet he felt bound
to say that, until they were in possession of further informa-
tion, he mast reserve his judgment.
Lord D. STUART disapproved of the conduct of the

government in these transactions, and censured with asps-
rity the proceedings of Russia. If, he observed, we had a
Foreign Minister who was not a minister of Russia or of
Austria, bat of England, none of them deplorable events'
would have occurred which had disturbed the tranquillity
and endangered the peace of the world.
Mr. MILNES thought Lord Dudley bad borne, too
hardly upon the government, though he could not but
say that they would have improved their position if they
had shown a little more confidence in parliament, and
not have kept back their papers when France and Russia
had published theirs.
Lord J. RUSSELL said a few words in reply to Sir J.
Pin INOTON and Mr. LATAID.

Mr. MUNTZ was of opinion th►t if we had had a dif-
ferent government, a Russian army would never have
marched into the Turkish territory. The country felt,
he said, that all sense of national honour was lost,
and that we were governed by pounds, shillings, and
pens.

After some observations by Mr. BIACLnrr, also in favour
of a bold policy,
Mr. COBDEN said he had listened to many speeches,
and he did not exactly see any difference of opinion. Every-
body was agreed that the conduct of Russia in this matter
bad been treacherous, overbearing, and violent. He found
there was a universal assent to that; and it was the most
fortunate result of the late proceedings in the East, that
they had brought about a firm alliance, not only between
the people of England and France, but between the govern-
ments of the two countries. (Hear, hear.) They all agreed
it was a vary desirable thing that Russia should not take
possession of Turkey. Everybody wished that Russia
should evacuate the principalities. Well, the noble lord
had expressed his conviction that all those objects would be
attained. (Hear, hear.) Aad he believed that everybody
in the house, sad out of it, would be quite willing to wait
for a few months longer, and have all those objects 110000-
plished peaceably. He believed that even Birmingham
itself, if it was put to the vote in the Town-hall—notwith-
standing they manufactured muskets there—(laughter)—
would rather support the noble lord in a paci
tic policy, to carry out the objects they all
desired, sooner than precipitate the country into a war to
obtain them a few weeks or months earlier. Notwith-
standing there was • complete acquiescence of opinion,
there was still very great uneasiness on the subject of
Turkey. The reason was obvious, but they would not look
it in the face. It was this. There was a growing convic-
tion in the public mind that that which had hitherto been a
current phrase—the integrity of the Turkish empire—that
which had hitherto been recognised as a maximum of
policy in this country not to be questioned, had now become
a mere empty phrase and nothing more. For, no doubt,
during the last 20 years there had been a growing convic-
tion
in the public mind that the Turks were intruders in
Europe, that their home was Asia, and that the Mahe:me-
dia: could not exist in Europe alongside civilised states.
The progress of recent events bad given immense impetus
to that opinion. The fact was, we could not maintain
independence in a country if the people were not in a posi-
tion to maintain it themselves—especially such • people as

that of Turkey, numbering twenty or thirty 'millions in
Europe and in Asia. Another fact was, the exist-
ence of a large christian population in Turkey in
Europe. That fact was
forward until now; but it bad become the predominant
elements of the question. He confessed he should be

very sorry to see this country fighting for the maintenance
of Mohammedanism. (Cheers) lie never himself get
uo any enthusiasm for Mohammedanism. It kept the slave
market, fin both white and block slaves, in Europe ; and he
did not see why we should be called on to support slats ry in
the east any more than in the west. (Hear, hear) But it
was said that the preservation of Turkey was necessary to
maintain the balance of power in Europe. Well, let them
keep Turkey as it was—call it Turkey still, if they liked ;
bat let them not suppose t hat they could maintain the Moham-
medan rule io that country. A great deal had been said about
our comm rce. Asa free-trader he begged entirely to protest
against he idea of fighting for a market at all. (Dear,
hear.) He would never give his consent to fighting for a
tariff. In the first place, he denied that they would ac-'
eomplish their end if they did so. Ile believed that
free trade principles would spread by peace ; he be-
lieved that they were making their way all over the
world. We were making converts to free trade by the
proofs we gave of its salutary results Besides the noble
lord had given to the house a most delusive paper as to the
commerce of Turkey with this country. That return in-
cluded our exports by way of Constantinople to the Black
Sea, to great part of Central Asia, and up the Danube.
But that was not Turkish commerce. Constantinople was a
deptit where we sent goods ; but a very small portion of
them was actually consurnid in the country under the domi-
nion of Turkey. Though he was no partisan of Russia, he
was not sorry to see that power, the great representative in
Europe of despotic principles, humiliating and demeaning
itself, as it had done, by the mean policy it had carried on.
But let us not delude ourselves with any danger to British
commerce from Russian ascendancy. All the commerce we
had in the Bieck Sea had arisen from the encroachments of

Russia on the coasts of that sea. What was our coma:rice
in grain in the Black Sea ? We did not get food from
Turkey, but from Russia ; and would not Russia be as glad
to sell us her tallow, hemp, and corn, in future, whatever
mi,;ht be her aggressions on foreign countries It was a
great fallacy to suppose otherwise. We had a trade to
Russia through the Black Sea—not a very large one, be-
cause Russia had followed our example is restrictive tariffs;
but a larger portisti of our shipping was employed in the
Russian trade than in any other we hod. He therefore
discarded altogether the idea that Russia was a country
that discouraged trade. But what prospect had we of trade
with Turkey—a country that was literally without roads,
end where travelling was impossible, except on horseback ?
These was not curb a thing as a pavement in Constanti-
nople, or a lamp, or a scavenger—except the doge. (A
laugh.) Could a country like that contribute largely to the

commerce of the world ? It was a well known historical
fact that the Turks had brought blight, and desolation, and
misery wherever they had come. He did not argue in de-
fence of Russian aggression—he did not want to see them
in possession of Turkey : but let us not deceive ourselves,
and say that we were keeping up a mercantile and com-
mercial people. Let them look at Petersburg—a city that
might vie with London, which united the magnificence of
Paris with the commercial character of our own metropolis,
with a river almost twice as wide; then let them pass down
to Constantinople, and contrast the two cities—the one
occupying the most favourable spot on the face of the earth,
—the other the most disadvantageous. (Hear, hear.)
Constantinople had been well described by an American
traveller as compseed, in the Turkish quarter, of rows of
wooden boxes, with lids that were open all day and shut at
night. (Laughter.) We could have no natural alliance
with such a country as that; and he protested against its
being argued in the interest of England that we were bound
to maintain the Turkish power in the possession of this
country. As to the balance of power, that was a political
question ; but he objected to facts being brought forward
which were not founded in truth, in order to mislead the
English people as to their interest on this question. These
points would have to be developed and reasoned upon for
years. Nobody believed that this question was settled
but no sensible person ever expected war to arise out of
it. A great deal had been said about the Russian power,
and about the danger to England of Russia occupying the
countries on the Bosphorus. He had never shared that fear,
even when people were more excited than they were now, and
were crying out fur war with Russia. lle had visited Russia
then ; he had done so since ; and all events had tended to
confirm the opinion he had then formed. What an absur-
dity it was to talk of Russia coming to invade England. '
Why, Russia could net move an army across her own fron-
tiers without coming to Europe for a loan. It wasjawerful
to its next neighbour, Turkey, because that cos stry was
falling into decay ; and when a country was in oath
a Oats, It, seigibours would go and take Ipossiession
of as much of it as they could get. ►All he could
say, therefore, was that the government did wisely
in disregarding the cry of the thoughtless persons
who cried out for war. (Hear, hear.) Some writers in
newspapers, who called themselves democratic, called upon
the government to take energetic steps. As if democracy
had ever gained anything by war ! (Hear, hear.) He
thought the government acted wisely, in disregarding such
advice. The government had acted rightly, in the interest
of the country and in the interest of themselves, in
disregarding such advice; for if they had plunged
into war, those very men who counselled them to take that
step would be the first to call down disgrace on the ministry.
(Hear, hear.) He would say nothing against the govern-
ment, for the policy they had pursued for the maintenance
of the Turkish empire was a traditional policy which had
I been handed down to them by previous governments. All
he would say was, that when they got rid of this difficulty,
as he was sure they would, the government of the day,
which was at least as peaceable as the people would allow
them to be—(hear, hear)—would not live long when they
would feel that they had reason to be satisfied with the
course they adopted on this question. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERS EON—Sir, I cannot allow the speech
of the hon. gentleman to pass without one or two observa-
tions. I cannot accept the praise which the honourable
gentleman has bestowed at the conclusion of his
speech on the ground on which he has been pleased
to plate it. (Hear, hear.) Nothing is so painful as to see
a man of great ability labouring to bring about a conviction
which he knows to be contrary to the opinions of the great
majority of his fellow-countrymen, and which, therefore.
he is afraid—l will not use a stronger expression—openly to

. .
express, but which he endeavours to conceal under every
specious device which human ingenuity could afford to the
practised orator. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman in
the beginning agreed with every person and everything,
and he ended in differing on all points. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. gentleman said he considered it to be a proper maxim
of policy to maintain the independence of Turkey, and to
prevent Russia from taking a portion of that terri-
tory which belonged to the Turkish empire. But
in the course of his speech the honourable gen-
tleman showed that Turkey was not worth any-
thing, and that it was not of much consequence if it fell
to pieces. If the hon. gentleman stood forth as the advo-
cate of the aggressive and ambition' policy of Russia, as
the advocate of that system of policy which he pretended
so lately to denounce and condemn, in the present state of
feeling in this house and the country, I know not how be
could dare to pursue a course more calculated to defend and
assist and facilitaUi the views which be pretended to op-
pose. (Cheers.) I confess, sir, I never heard a speech in
my life so full of contradictions. (Hear, hear.) At one
moment he tells us that Russia—not as formerly—could
be crumpled up like a sheet of brown paper—
(laughter)—but that Russia is so weak that she
is perfectly incapable of resisting any serious
efforts that might be made against her on the
part of this country; at another moment he declares that
war with Ruda would be ruin to England. How can he
reconcile the two statements ? (Hear, hear.) At on. time
Russia is • barbarous power, with scattered territories,
weak in the interior ; and then he launches oat into praises of
the beauty of St. Petersburg, and because that city is more
beautiful than Constantinople, he thinks that Russia ought
to be possessed of both. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
The hon. gentleman says free trade has made great progress
throughout Europe. He has himself made a tour through
Europe, and because he has been received with the courtesy
and civility to which his personal qualities entitled him, he
thinks that he bas persuaded all Europe to become
free traders. (Laughter.) The honourable gentleman
says that the efforts which this country has made
in former times were in favour of low tariffs, and be uks
what has been the result to this country ? Wby, sir, we
went to war for the liberties of Europe, and not for the pur-
pose of gaining so much per cent. on our exports. (Cheers.)
We went to war, not for the purpose of increasing the ex-
port of our commodities, but in defence of the liberty and
independence of nations, and for the maintenance of that
balance of power, which, however the hen. gentleman may
treat it with contempt, because he does not understand it—

(laughter)—everybody else considers to be a point
deserving of mention, and essential to the liberty
and well-being of mankind. (Loud cheers.) I admit
that no man has done more in this country for
the assertion and practical enforcement of the principle of
free trade than the hon. gentleman, and I am the last man
to withhold the tribute of my acknowledgments to him for
the great services he has rendered in that respect. (Hear,
hear.) But the hon. gentleman seems entirely to forget

his principle when he compares the commercial system of
Turkey to that of Russia. Dots the hon. gentleman not
know —and if be knows, why does lIP s 1.( to withdraw the
attention of the public Irons it ?—that the commercial sye•
tem of Itu-sia is a restr:etive end pe .liiiiir,,ey one, while
that of Turkey is the most liberal me that exists in any
country with which we have commercial relations ? (Hear,
hear.) The hon. gentleman says that Turkey is ins-
material in a commercial point of view, because,
forsooth, we had no great commerce in the Block Sea till
the time of the Empress Catherine. Why, sir, I never
heard an arjument from the hon. gentleman less calculated
to support the conclusion which he wished to draw. But it
' is not true that the commerce of Turkey is immaterial to
this country. It is material to this country. (Hear, hear.)
Her natural and internal products ore as impocant as
those that come to us from Russia, and os her natural and
internal resources increase, her commerce will b.curn, more
and more valuable. (Hear, hear.) "Aye, but," says the
hon. gentleman, "you ze under deception ; fur if you look
to the returns moved for by an hon. gentle man, is:: ...•}1 give
us an account of the commerce with Turkey, you will
find that the great bulk of it goes not to Turkey,
but to other countriesithrough Turkey." Well, but would
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view it is of great importance to the commercial interests of
England that Turkey should remain independent, in order
that a liberal system of commerce may exist. (Hear,
hear.) But the hon, gentleman is a great advocate of non-
interference. He says, "Do not interfere at all in the in-
ternal affairs of other countries; do not dictate to other
nations or people their form of government ;" and then ho
says that the state and position of Turkey must be spe.
cially committed to the deliberation of the government and
parliament of this country. (Hear, hear.) He says that
the question which we have to determine is, what we are to
do with the Turkish empire—(" hoar, hear," and laughter)
—that we have to dispose of the relative situation of Ma-
homedan. and Greek, and that we are to decide
who are to be the inhabitants of this part of the
Turkish empire. a says that you are now yielding to a
♦ulgar prejudice ; that Turkey is a rotten fabric that can-
not last long; that the Turkish empire must expire ; that,
as the Sultan, his army, and two millions of inhabitants
aro only encamped in Europe—(laughter)—it would be
I quite ridiculous and absurd to interfere for their
preservation ; and that, on the contrary, we should
conifer how best to dispose of their territories,
and relieve Europe of their presence. That, sir,
is a strange doctrine from one whe maintains the
necessity of leaving foreign countries to decide on the form
of their own government. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, I do
not admit to him that Turkey, as an empire, is in that
state of decay which be represents. I say that the mainte-
nance of the integrity of Turkey is not only an object de-
sirable, but one worth contending for, and capable of being
carried out to a successful result. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
gentleman has been greatly misinformed as to the state of
Russia for the last 3) years. (Hear, hear.) I assert, with-
out fear of contradiction from any one who knows anything
on the subject, that, so far from having gone back, Turkey
has made greater progress and improvement than any
other country in the same period. From the time
of Sultan Mahmoud to the present period, Tur-
key, whether in respect to the system of government,
as bearing on the system of the inhabitants, or in respect to
increrepof power, has made greater advance iu prosperity
than almost any other country. (Hear, hear.) Whether
with respect to the increase of such manufactures as ales
possesses, or to the extension of her commercial relations,
in ■ll such repecta Turkey has made immense progress
during the period I have mentioned. (Hear, hear.) So
far from going with the hon. gentleman in that sort of
political slang—(laughter)—which is the fashion of those
who want to partition and divide Turkey—(hear, hear)—
who say that Turkey is • dead body, or an expiring body,
that cannot be kept alive, I am convinced that if
you only keep out of it those who wish to get
into it—(laughter and cheers)—if you only leave
those who are now in it to deal with it as
they now deal with it, so far is it from internal dis-
solution that I consider there are not many countries in
Europe with whom it would not bear a favourable com-
parison. (Hear, hear.) I think it as likely to increase in
power and prosperity, if you only keep other people's hands
offit—(laughter),—as some of those countries to which the
hon. gentleman has referred. (Hear, bear.) '.curkey has
no Nand or Circassia. (Cheers.) Sir, if ever I heard a
speech which, while it ostensibly commended the coarse
pursued by the government, was calculated to damp the
proper feeling of the country in support of that government,
it was the speech of the hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) But,
I am happy to say, it is the only speech we have heard
to-night in that tone—(hear, hear) ;—and I trust it will not
mislead anyone beyond the limits of this country, who
might be deceived by it. I hope that such
language will not excite abroad • feeling that might render
it more difficult for her Majesty's government to bring
about a settlement of the question satisfactorily to the he-
none of the country. (Cheers.) I trust that the great pre-
ponderance of the proper feeling and sentiment on this
subject will have shown all Europe the real sentiment of
parliament on this subject, and the determination of the
British nation and the British parliament to support the
government, and that, though there may be one man who
wishes to see Ramie extend her conquests over Turkey.
that is not the wish of the British nation, and that the go-
vernment of England, supported by the people of England,
are determiaed to maintain the independence of Turkey
—aa independence which we think it essential to maintain
both for political and commercial purposes. (Cheers.) I
do not mean to go with the hon. gentleman into a re-
arangement of the Turkish empire, or to dictate to the
Bulgarians, Slavonians, Greeks, or Mussulmans, who are
to be their governors, or what their form of government is
to be. (Cheers.) But it hu been the policy of this country
to give advice to the Turkish government, with a view to
those internal improvements which we thought would add
to the strength of Turkey, and to the happiness and pro-
sperity of the people who are plated under the rule of the
Sultan. Our suggestions have, I am happy to say,
been attended with beneficial consequences to Turkey.
Oar consular agents in the different provinces of
Turkey inform ns that tranquillity has increased,
I that justice is better administered, that oppression
has ceased, and that those benefits have resulted, which it
mast be the anxious desire of England to promote in every
country which considers its advice worthy of its attention.
If that system is pursued ; if England, united with France,
determine that Turkey shall not belong to Russia or to any
other power, and if that doctrine is enforced in practice, I
am convinced that if no foreign power endeavour to destroy
Turkey, our policy, so far from being ridiculous., as the
hon. gentleman endeavoured to represent it, will prove •
sound policy—a policy which deserves the approbation of
the country, and which it will be the duty of every future
government to pursue. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR was glad that the noble lord
had shown, by the high spirit he displayed on this occasion,
that he, at least, would not consent to be a member of a
cabinet unless a policy in accordance with the honour and
interests of the country was maintained by it. (Hear, hear.)
The motion for adjournment was then agreed to.

RETURNS ORDERED.
On the motion of Mr. E. HOEKTON, the following return
was ordered :—Copies of any memorials addressed from
time to time to successive P,,stnissti.rs-General by the in-
habitants of the towns of Stoke. upon. Trent, Macclesfield.
and Congleton, on the subject of the postal arrangements
of those districts, with the dates of such memorials; and of
any replies to the memorials, and of any instructions issued
to the Post-office authorities in relation to the further postal
recommodation of those districts.

On the motion of Mr. Sornanox—Return of the amount
of fees paid to the Office of Woods, Forests, and Land
Revenues, the Office of the Board of Works, the Office of
the Duchy of Lancaster, and the Office of the Duchy of
Cornwall, by promoters of private bills, in the years 1862
and 184 for or in respect of any duty performed by those
offices in respect of the signification of the consent of the
Crown to private billy, di+tioguishing the nature and
amount of the fees in each case, and the authority under
which such fees are claimed, and their application.

HACKNEY CARRIAGES BILL.
The Hackney Carriages Bill was re-introduced by Mr.
WILSON, and passed through all its stages, with the modi-
fied clause relating to the four-mile circle.