The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-02 00:00:00

rient ig thie•
bore, yes ey side aid Ware puke
evarks. lir • soverament, en an importer trier
will not eir Asie lend with the home, but reels bre
Masi wishibirarseireseire, se mesh ae earner bar
Ines Prey writ dry sommeersi to Irelesd—uhaa. ear
oreartive hewn pen ms be ear of the prey they will
mom bore to preemmend. I arse reesem my hes
Mir net to divide the bow, bat nese I will
hope that ben. goademen on both sides will take ihir
trig eforneelog their spieler on this keratoid sia
(Reer. bor.)
Lesd S. RUIMILL —I own I meet that the hes. redo-
mem who has jest sat down sherd bail a ere of ens bloc
ellestiag the eziater• of a great potties of the r
la • matter it party wader. (Hear, beer.) Thea&
ratleme• mot knew fell tae l that when a
✓ats lete be ~sed. the iseeser wad time ef it is
11 the amor of the whole beer ; thatanil
segohilliss of this bones de sot allow eny pr epsilon to be
premed is the here; that if I pow were to perms IMI
series Irish I love Dr en the Brie pore, I sherd lo
tameiltbiy reppl b It Brehm endlsla that it ins
istisopeteet ihr me to propos it, end *SR he newt
Mew, es I err net peeper It be the here, it
was but natural that I shield wish is recoopeny the
Metwith the reasons whisk I thought soreary.
er. .) Had I been aerie be ip Lrias
eampeseat ter the ben. mamba he the Uoirmity of
or now err how ratisman lobar shown Wain
we nailer or ea the serene wield parole seek
that the here sera net to rept it. That loser Mr been
isbief
a his erste to tab with riper le the yawner, be
yea
Weeper is tide siege be soy shot will lot go ire sem-
mew ad nit do ft se the groasd that the hes. pandints•
says that delay is required, that bag deliberation is
oesseery. He talks of war ailing with our re-
patriate ; I must my that he is trilling with the
yeah's of the eammuaity. (Rear, Sir, what
do the parr in the boor tell you with retard to assn few
of these union ? With regard to &aril, t t the Wilt rigid
sorely into eircemetazor, if nerserry, we. rode, end sot
en applicant was relieved whose claim was not irresistible—
mho wee not really destitute—whilst the workhouse test we.
Crred to cheek imposition ; that the want was such, that
• were mere skeletons of met. I. another union,
Stri, It was said that the anion was disunion in the ex-
treme ; that the small laadireds were becoming exhausted,
and applying to England and Scotland, and She-
min", and leaving their wives and *Siren to
starvation ; that few was prevalent, and the
destitution of the people wee utterly indescribable.
It is la such circumstances se these that the hen. member
ells for delay—that be sells upon us to go minutely Into
wiry question sonaected with the administration of the poor
law in Ireland—and to investigate every nicety of area and
of valuation befo:e we apply a temporary remedy to a tern
but most appalling .strews. (Cheers.) The hon. and
learned member for the University of Dellis doses to say
that I have In omen forward this resolution r • single mea-
sure unaccompanied by any peas al prminition for the
amendment of the poor law. But the boa. and learned
member must know full wall that in the Irish poor law com-
mittee I 'wed several peopedtioos which I thought it would
be the duty of goveremso to submit to parliament, and if
I were permitted to go into Committee, I should be prepared
loteretirtlittitri: .6`."noosteveP,""tri'ti the iron.
and learned member, after having himself beard some of
them discussed in committee, to come dean to the house and
say that this was the single proposition of the government.
(Hear.) But, sir, the hen. sad learned member goes on to
say—and this is a toes which I hear has been taken by per.
sons of weight and authority—that urlesa we lay before the
house, and settle, in csajanstion with parliament, a plan
with regard to the area of taxation, it will he impossible to
agree to any rate in aid. Now, what we have done is this :
we have appointed • somaimas, consisting of persona highly
competent to the talk ; but, although they have given many
mentbs to the labour, they have not as yet got beyond a prop)
@Bien for ward additional unions and electoral divisions fur
those union'. Theypropow a scheme for diminishing the area of
taxation, eo that persons liable to the to may be able to
reach sad communicate with each other In the working of
the anon, hot they have not thought peeper to say that
every small property shall hem a separate area of testion.
If it be meant, then, that talon we agree that every smell
property shall form an area of Stades, these gentlemen will
sot consider the propesition of a rate% mid, I swot say that
it fa not at all likely we gall to able to submit that propo-
sition. I Lave a letter my pocket from a gentleman who
was some time sins employed by the poor law commission,
bet who is not at present se employed—one in whose ability
and experience we have great ondielence, and that gentleman
says, "While it is desirable to diminish the area of taxatios,
yet, if every property were made a separate area, you would
see evictions greatly increased, and that no distress whisk
has yet been witnessed in Ireland would be equal to the
misery that must ensue if that plan of area were adopted.'
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. 011 BORNE.—Is that Mr. &air ?
Lord J. RUSSELL.—No, it is not Mr. Same
laugh.) The hr. baronet the member tot nzei
be Girded, although not very dearly, the plan that he
tmeslaLr.opose, and coupled with it another
the
. I do not think it proper to adopt
07Zrce; baronet. I think that if you were to melt your
whsle plan consistent with his two proposition., nineleg
the sea to the property of each individual Indian% se that
he wield have it in his power, by driving away every small
basal to clear himself from obligation to pay rates, while at
the sees. time you adopted a largo scheme of e
yeamenld, is the first instance, create great manly Ise-
lei, eel soomilly, you would be the means of driving thou-
oasis of the neeruntate people to a distant shore without
say previden being made he their reception or subsistence.
(Hear, her) Therefore being ready as I should be to pro-
pose the resolution in committee, and to tapir' the general
alterations I contemplate in the poor-law. I men I'M that
they would not
.agree with the plait of the hon. buret,
which, in my opinion, would have ally the effect of beady
Increasing the amount of misery at resent rhapp,:y pre-
vailing In bard. (Hear, hear.)
Kr. U. illellißT said that the noble toed had accused
the hon. membr he Becks of party violins. He( Mr. Herbert)
although oraire~n ray word that had been awned
by tin be ere ,e
all _entire of that de-
He be reberned to that hour without
• seers% and had seismal it determined to give
goveinment air sod irepereet support, bet he had sow
arms le the oinsinsioa that the =lssues of in tit-
hed we imemprible with the rinser of her cry's
Wren tighter.) Its an 1716 "swag's.'
dr= who never asked • shier of the pa mo-
or, bet who had dose his best to rometly the distress of kis
anotey I and, therefore, he tiered that the hoer would
*irks bed seer claim to Great bearing. (HT=
Be held in his band • memenal whisk had bre
to the Pear-law Cootraimiessee hem the Iditowel board of
geardleas, sad whisk err that, tees fell captriere of the
per law sad the red err Sen ere, they had mese to the
eimeluieo that the test sir seeemstry to the proper werkiog
el the measure we a Moses of the area of tares
The sumerial Anther sogrobil that the comsksionses bed
thrives the pore, to • rest extent, to MOWN the
dfleralty. The reamimissen seemed this resemble re-
=amen= I= to tree attenticra of the bear to the
which it was made. The anon of
Literrel Wan ens of 9,984 wet, K 911,687 mos,
Mho 20,678 seer while the average of pperish.. was .sly
Wh, shown. that the Ira of the mire wee twain them
Ileb of
(Zoos
that the Wen , Nbe seed leg-
gestismen wee Se eh, was) thisow, reemen junto ?
(fleas, bear.) The cerminionete had merry the power
is remsly this state of think bet they bad re to de
OD, nod by *tit marl err-hoses ppeeasr mw to the week-
beer Amnion to &mho. ami leneri. le aboolete Mo.
(Ms, bur.) Tho semmimisoen might allege that they
hod net widest methesey, U they had not it was their
dry le spry to kw riditirel hese. Now, when
Lersj,wei away Am the !reek el Ireland,
the. that be hod write& a crude-
r& Mot hod that tommias dose t They ked gene to
the meth, awl be an dermas meet tell them that then us
ellseatien was required. Why bad they net gene to the
set. (User, berar.) Tire the area et tertian was era-
raof, there • diminstion we. abort* mammy to
w:eking et the law. The Real of Oberdes had been
seed • dictator, bet then was • worse dionloothAp in the
trismeocate. The peer-law ormaimissme had
bad Ike Wee of die people me the prozZedoif
the leadlore at their disposal, end be
tem with having Mei with bell.
IM tikes remember that may of the -whom it wee
saritutew-aspesed to fez fat the relief the pont of aims
were themegre asiesely • we
seer yr them
wren If the }thirds of the mess sew
wen roe atimer ear earned out, he did se=
what we to prod their carrying oat rimy spurt it
relesty. Meer, heat.) He would tell the arse this if
are err in the poor law each as he hid soggirei
wore net seedie—if something were not less beyond lie
sem= seppoitzte: vicious system wide bad
sod in, would bring down other dere
of the country to that state of pauperism whisk it woo
sought to relieve—he for or would return to the tee the
noble led would thus impose upon him. He weer
set think is.. bit duty as an Irish
bet he should oe bask with the calmness ofPlaimprir;
and Niteassesd by hope at all—by the hope only that the
isseintere would by sore msesere rid him of y, the
pea of whir, when it could no longer be held with
=is to the resistor or the tenant, would become in-
(Hear, hear.)
flit W. BARRON impaired for Ireland when the only
nerdy that could be eraggestod for her many wee ad-
ditional tram Pr -Mit pert if this issesnr" rimed he
shored go hen and age every man is kis employe
mos In ere it Wig able to work any good for his
slaty ter thentioni for all his exertions In carrying out
=tle the purpose of giving employment wee
rim eat them not supper eat thi
use Y eld woad be esnAmed to Bd. ia the pound in
emount ea to Sr rine in anties The creequenese of
Mier a see would seroney be, to raise up afe=
of and nosier, appellees in Ireland, •
at Womb the marbem ef that how; and to in-
crease the mode of bearer rims by twenty or thirty.
Lord CAATLIZZILGII whited to say a few wore,
leareuk se be was memested with the meth of
Ireland, a pert of the errantry that would be
Nlseriously nested by the present rearre.
regretted very musk the sort of Irish ten the debate
had taken ; he aleergred that the noble lord TA the head
at the government hol net been permitted to Patroclus his
resolus, hems if be bad hoc. member, would have
been very milt relieved hem the embereadwarn which
metierlabored under at preest. He obje.itid to the
were
Oa tummies SI Nam pro,,Geed. There
up= that tsosmtteo I Uri* imeabe•te. 6 from wetter, 6
frog liaester
__ hem Hants, aid 1 from
erns& Be believed that ride we* sad already bees
gins Wire that 011111111tts, to the effect that

the rate la ail weld not be Gerrie& late Watt ia the dater
eastatay ;and he deeply emitted le thia that*. moat pre-
paid's wee dienetrica4 append toes et Mimes
eak42ertiellW, is whidt Ibe miss betwesa awl
see beiniel 1e be euselei eat He urea the
getemmeat w latish's, empliteesive abeeeent mei aft
N *aim themeless haled the seggettisee et etemillese
up del% sal le mewed than that it wale east as Nadi se
Whet She ates la mid es the rats itesii, evea U it were eel-
lamed. mid peetiblyreelise.

Af s brimeedmfrost Mr. P. Pam,
Mt. J. (YOONNELL said that nothing pmetitable could
arise oat of tot resent diseesakm, es it only stead in the way
of the statement of the goventmeat pien, until he heard
which he MOM not give moralism (Rear hoar.)
Mr. CLIKIRITS was aim of opinion that they should
hear the etaleneent of die noble lord before they reseeded
to disgust the eabjact.
Col. DIINNE opposed the motion. Although the propo-
sition wee net before them officially, he was sure as one in
that ham was ignorant of it. (Hear, hear.) H. thought
they were teas good a position to discuss the question as it
the sable kid had made as hoar's speech upon it. (" Oh.")
At host is as goad a polities to resist the reposition.
(Laughter.)
Mr. KERR maid that so strong a feeling existed against
the proposal of a rate in aid in the part of Ireland he repre-
sented (Downpatziek), that if the government succeeded fa
earryieg it, every gentleman in the meaty holding the can-
mission of the pram would throw it up.
Mr. OROOAN said the offset of going into committee now
wadi be to sassed= only a part of what ought to be the plan
of relieving the Irish salomwhich was not only to vote a rate
in aid, bet to Hs a maximum rate.
• •

Mr. REYNOLDS, referring to • statement on the other
side, that this rate in aid would shako the loyalty of Ulster
to its foundation, said if this were true, the loyalty of that
provines might be called sizmiony loyalty. (Laughter.) He
had always understood Ulster was a very religious province,
and was still more remarkable for its loyalty and love of
British connexion. It had always opposed the other three
provinces in their demand for Catholic emancipation and
repeal of the union ; but now it was said the rate in aid
would convert these ultra-religious and loyal subjects into
something link short of rebels. (Hear.) Thair loyalty was
nothing but conditional loyalty, if it was to be destroyed by
the proposal to relieve their starving fellow-countrymen. In
the name of his constituency he protested against this being
tree. The highest rate ever laid in Ulster was 3s. in the
pound, so that they could sever be injured by this rata in
aid. He had voted for it in committee, and should de so
mow; but only because it was absolutely necessary. He was
told that no more imperial votes for Irish distress would be
granted ; sad knowing that the rates collected in Ireland
last year amounted to 1,600,0001., and that twenty-
on. unions were in a state of distress, he would
ask the gentlemen opposing this vote if they were
prepared to let the people die in the midst of plenty, with
food at a drug prime (Hear, hear.) Another reason for
voting for this rate in aid, he wag tired alluring his country-
men celled beggar,. (Hear, bear.) Ireland was perfectly
capable el supporting her own pauperism, but to do so she
must be fairly treated. When repeal was asked for, it was
said Ireland was as much part of this country u Yorkshire,
and So be treated the tame; but now they were told
that, h coonected with this country, the
were y separated from it. He would vote for this
rate in aid, on condition of its being spread over a large mu-
tate of property, including funded property, annuities,
and other kinds of property. This country received nearly
nine mililons per annum from absentee rents; and it should
be remembered that that amount paid the income-tax to
this toiletry. (Hear. hear.)
Sir W. VERNER reminled the house that the loyalists
of Ulster had twice received the thar ks of parliament for
their loyalty in times of disturbance.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that though he voted for this reso-
lution in the committee, circumstances to re so changed that
he must now withdraw that support. He voted fort in the
committee as • part of a series of masseur's; but he must
now decline doing to till he heard what other mourn it
was to be coupled with.
Sir T. D. ACLAND said they could not at that hour of
the night come to a vote on • resolution fraught with
so much consequence. (Wier, hear.) He would rota for
going into committee because he was milieus to hear
the statement of the noble lord; but he wished that his vote
should not be considered es indicating any opinion with re-
gard to the resolution itself. He thought it better to take
that course, than discus • subject of such importance in the
rambling way that it had been dimumed for the last five
hours..

The house then divided:
For going into committee
Against
The house than went into committee on the proposition for
imposing a 6d. rate in aid.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would t )-morrow (this
day) move a Tot, of 200,0001. on account of the naval esti-
mates, after which be would make a statement in com-
mittee oa the 'abject on which they bad jest now divided.
Mr. HERRIES wished to knew whether the question of
the navigation laws would be brought on on Monday, 'op-
posing tkat the debate on the Irish poor-law was adjourned ?
lewd J. RUSSELL hoped the debate would be concluded
to-marrow eight. If nut, he would bring on the question
of the navigation laws as at first advised.

CA. 811THORP objected to the mode of voting mosey
on ...oast.

TM bows adjesreed at bolt-pod sac