The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-30 00:00:00

awe Which was oen Ike subject, and he could only
trooleda, for blemelf. He allmight it was highly probibse
that they ~puysi lay before the house their views dun
il
present seedoe,"-
lr. RICARDO did not ask tbe question with regard to
the committee, but wi.:ll regard to the government
Mr. CARDWELL cola only repeat his answer, namely
that he thought it was probable the government would state
their views THE subject this susion.
" GUNPOWDER PLOT."
Oa the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn till
Monday next,
Sir J. WALMSLEY roes to repeat a question he had put
to the noble lord, the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment-, relative to certain statements connecting the
name of the late Governor of Hungary, Louis Kossuth,
with the seizure of warlike stores at Rotherhithe. It
would be in the recollection of the house that when he had
naked that question a fortnight ago he was informed that
legal proceedings were then pending. In consequence of
that answer he had withheld a communication he had in
his possession from M. Kossuth, in which that gentleman
unequivocally stated that he had no connexion either
directly or indirectly with any warlike stores in this
country ; but as statements arising out of this affair were
gaining credence in this metropolis, es he (Sir J. Waite.-
fey) thought, to the great damage of the government, he
wished to repeat his question. He begged, therefore, to
ask the noble lord whether the legal investigation into the
seizure of arms and warlike stores at Rotherhithe had re-
sulted in substantiating the charges or insinufttious that
Louis Kossuth was connected therewith; and whether the
police had been employed to watch the residence of Louis
Kossuth or the houses of other political refugees ? (Cheers.)
Viscount PALMERSTON.-Bir, the house is aware that
one of the proceedings at the Bow etzeoteoiSce with regard
to the seizure of gunpowder is closed, and that a decision
has been given; but that with regard to the other proceed-
ing upon the case of the rockets, the magistrate at Bow-
street interrupted the case and stated that it ought to pro.
teed before auother tribunal. The hon. gentleman has asked
me what is the result of these latter proceedings as regards
certain imputations which have been cast upon H. Kossuth ?
Now really, I cannot do more than say that what has taken
Bplace is all before the public, and that every man can form
iz judgment upon that which has been stated in evidence.
(Loud cheers.) When the further proceedings which have
been pointed out by the magistrate shall have takes
place, and the case shall have been determined, then
the public will of course have better grounds
upon which to come to a decision. (Renewed cheers and
laughter.) With regard to the second question, it is the
duty of the police, accenting to their general and according
to their special instructions, to watch the proceedings of
any Persons, whether Englishmen er foreigners, who may
be supposed, rightly or wrongly, to be contemplating any
breach of the law; and neither the residence of M. Kole
oath nor the houses of the other political refugees in this
country can be exempted from tbou ordinary precautions
which are taken with regard to any individual—whether
British subject or foreigner—under such circumstances.
(Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT also wished to ask a question. The noble
lord, both in his reply now and in his answer the other
night, wished the house to assume that this was one of those
ordinary cases which areas in the police-offices in London,
where somebody went before the magistrate at Bow-street,
or elsewhere, and made a declaration that a certain person
had done something contrary to the law, and where it was
therefore, and as a matter of course, the duty of
the police to interfere. Now he (:dr. Bright) wanted
to ask the noble lord whether the proceedings
which had been taken by the police in this matter had not
fa the first instance been initiated, or had arisen from di-
rut or indirect instructions proceeding from the depart-
ment of which he was the chief? (Cheers.) He (Mr.
Bright) was not at all afraid to say why he put this ques-
tion. The noble lord in hie answer the other night, and in
his answer now, had taken a course which in his (Mr.
Bright's) opinion was not becoming his position, or the
government of this country, with regard to Kossuth. He
(Mr. Bright) had never seen H. Koesuth since lie
was at Manchester, he had never spoken to him, nor heard
from him, nor seen him since he came to London, and he
looked at this matter just as he would have done if it had
regarded the humblest, instead of the most distinguished,
of the Hungarians. (Hear hear.) They spoke in this and
the other house, as if they offered a refuge to the exile of
foreign countries. They allowed him to live here ; but it
was stated broadly in the public press that either directly
or indirectly the government act spies upon his house—
(cheers)—and upon all persons going into his house, or who
were supposed to have any communications with him.
Then certain warlike stores were seized by the police at
Rotherhithe, and the newspaper which was the great organ
of the government 'published most defamatory charges with
regard to M. Kossuth. The noble lord, who must know all
the facts as much as any man in the kingdom, was asked,
not to state all he knew, but he was asked distinctly, was
there any evidence in his possession which could con-
nect, or did connect, Kossuth with the proceedings at
Rotherhithe? (Hear, hear.) Then the noble lord rose,
and spoke in an evasive manner. (Hear, hear.) He said
he did net east any imputation either upon Kossuth or any-
body else. No, of course not. But the noble lord—who
was the man of all others who could do this if Koseuth had
not been well treated, as he (Mr. Bright) was inclined
to believe—was asked to say whether there was a single
particle of evidence that could bring home the charges 1
against M. Kossuth, and ho studiously avoided saying any- 1
thing that could lead to the possible belief that i
there was no evidence against him. (Hear, hear.) Now, 1
he (Mr. Bright) did not think that this was the way in •
which we ought to treat foreigners in this country. His I
own opinion was that H. Kossuth intended honestly to I
obey all the laws of this country while he was in this oesa• I
try. They had, moreover, his own assurance as a tea et i
honour—aad his honour had never been challenged—
(cheers)—that he had at no time been connected with these /
transactions. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, while these I
charges were circulated, if there was no evidence connect- 1
ing him with them, let the noble lord say so; and if such
evidence was forthcoming let hint be as amenable to the
laws as any other man. (Hear, hear.) As, however, these i
statements were intended to damage the character of Hoe- 1
suth, he (Mr. Bright) begged to ask the noble lord whether
the Home-office had instigated these proceedings, and whe-
ther any evidence had been obtained to show any counexion 1
between M. Kossuth and any infraction of the laws of this 1
country ? (Cheers.) ,
Viscount PALMER3TON—Sir, I cannot but express I
my extreme surprise at the ignorance of the honourable 1
gentleman—(loud cheers)—u to the constitutional princi 1
plea which ought to govern not only a minister of the crown, I
but member of this house. (Renewed cheers.) The
hon. gentleman takes me to task because I did not choose
to answer a question which no man had a right to put to
me. (Great cheering.) The question which the hon. gen- i
Semen asked was, what is my opinion as to the effect of the
probable or possible result of judicial proceedings which are 3
now going on ? (Cheers.) Sir, I say, that if I were to give 3
an answer to that question, I should be departing from my
duty ; and I should be doing that which neither I nor any
hon. gentleman has any right whatever to do. The inves • - ]
ipta
clone and proceedings before a court of justice are now ag
on. The results of those proceedings will explain themse ves ; t
and it is not for me or for any other man tici::aziirtat will I
be the effect upon an individual of those pr • when 1
they are completed. (Hear, hear.) So far for e con- I
stitutional knowledge of thei hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) ,
Sir, the hon. gentleman asked me whether the proceedings I
were authorised, initiated, or directed by me? They i
tem. (Loud cheers.) I don't mean to shrink from the 3
responsibility which may attach to any act I may think it I
duty to do. (Cheers.) As to the refugees that are in '
die country, they are as free as the air they breathe, and I
as safe as the lend they tread. (Cheers.) But on this t
eentlition—that they do not violate the laws., nor •
, alms the hospitality which this country throws over all ,
men who may seek shelter from oppression within ,
the limits of this country. (Hear, hear.) But I hold it to
be the duty of a Secretary of State, if hp hes reason to I
think that any person, whether he be a foreigner or a
British subject, is contemplating the violation of the laws, i
or is likely to abase that shelter which has been granted to i
him by the hospitality of this country, to take steps for ob- 1
taining information of the fact; and also to take steps for 1
the punishment of any man—be he Englishman or other— •
if he violate the laws and renders himself amenable to any •
of the tribunals of this country, (Great cheering.)
Mr. BRIGHT rose to explain. The noble lord assumed i
that he (Mr. Bright) had asked him about transactions to
which M. Kossott. was a party ; but the charges that were
pending were cheeps against Mr. Hale, and H. Kossuth
was entirely outside. (Cheers.) M. Kossuth was never-
theless charged by • powerful government organ with a
gross crime, and therefore he (Mr. Bright) thought he was
quite justified in asking the question. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN did not know what constitutional princi-
ples were, if it was not competent for any member of that
house to ask a secretory of state in his place to explain the
conduct of a judicial officer. (Hear, hear.) He knew no
way in which to make police magistrates responsible ,
to that house except it was through the Secretary
of State for the Home Department. (Hear, hear.)
Be had never heard that plea set up before. He had
heard questions put as to the conduct of a magistrate, in
the case of an unfortunate female, and a not very grave or
sedate answer given by the noble lord; but he never heard
the plea set up diet the Home Secretary was not bound to
give some explanation of the conduct of the magistrate in
that ease. (Hear, hear.) In this case, if Mr. Commis-
sioner Mayne undertook to set spies to walk backwards and
forwards before his house, or before the house of Kossuth—
and he had as much right to do it in one cue as the other
—(hear, hear)—if that were known to be the practice,
there was nothing unconstitutional in a member of that
house rising in his 1 lace and asking the Home Secretary,
after giving him due notice, not taking him by surprise,
but giving him, as in this case, weeks of notice, for an
explanation of the circumstance. There was nothing un-
constitutional in that. (hear, hear.) And he thought the
answer of the noble lord, taunting Mr. Bright with
constitutional ignoraece, looked very much like an attempt
to evade the question. (Hear, hear.) But the noble lord
hod not been se cautious and discreet as he sometimes was,
lie had admitted that the instructions emanated from
him—that they went from the Home-office. Thou he
was responsible. (Cheers.) This was no ordinary ease.
If the police were set to watch Kenneth's house, it was to be
presumed the noble lord had sumo knowledge of the causes
why this WAS done. (Hear, hear.) If he had instructed
the p dice to watch liassuth's house, they had • right to
ink him why he took that step. ((leers, and "No, no.")
Let not lion. gentlemen on the other side unnectesaelly put
themselves in the attitude. of standing between Ate,trian in-
fluence
and an unfortunate but illustrious refugee.
(near, hear.) if Owe were wise they would he quiet in
that muter —(leughter)—they would gain no popularity in
the ccun'ry by it. (lieu, hear.) What he wanted to
know was this—were the beastings of this country, that we
were different from Austria, that we were not like the
Ytenth, that we possessed rights tad libertie.a woTe dim