The Express.
London, England, 1851-04-05 00:00:00

try has derived benefit from that legislation, if the argu-
ment be true, it is the utter condemnation of the policy we
have pursued. (Hear, hear.) We were rightly told, Bor
10 years ago, that that which moat presses upon industry
and me m* the accumulation of capital, was not the amount
of taxes paid into the exchequer, but the indirect effect
produced by the existence of monopoly and protection.
(Hear, hear.) Those monopolies and protective duties have
been removed; and the community at large must have
derived a corresponding benefit. (Hear, bear.) My hon.
friend the member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) told us the
other night that there had been put into the pockets of the
community at large 101 l minutes per annum in the price of
their food alone. The noble lord the member for Stamford
(the Marquis of Granby) told us that in his opinion six
millions per annum had been taken from the pockets of the
agriculturists and transferred to those of other classes. I
do not answer for the precise amount of either of these cal-
culations; but supposing that either or both of them be
, tear, to that extent, at least, the community at large is
I richer ;sod better able to bear the taxation which they pas'.
(Hear, hear.) And whether they pay to the exchequer 60
millions or 100 millions per annum, they will be no worse
off than they were when compelled to make this useless
expenditure in the price of their food. If, on the con-
trary, while they have derived those benefit.;' the taxation
which presses upon them has been reduced full ten mil-
lions, it follows, not as a matter of probability or
opinion, but as a matter of absolute demonstra-
tion, that; the pressure of taxation must be infinitely
less now than it was ten years ago. (Hear, hear.) I am
not afraid of hearing such opinions urged in this house;
hon. gentlemen here know better than that ; but it is most
important that they should, entertainiug such opinions as
I are held on this side the house, withstand the prevalence of
a delusion so fatal as this. They ought to withstand the
putting iwo the hands a our opponents so favourable a
weapon as this would be. They ought to withstand the
discrediting their own principles of political economy—to
withstand that delusion, which, if suffered to act upon the
public opinion in this country, cannot but lead to conse-
quences fatal to our national credit and our national cha-
racter. (Hear, hear.) I beg pardon of the house for say-
• ing so much upon this imbeeet. (hear, hear.) I sneak
warmly upon it., because I confess I feel warmly. (Hear,
hear.) I have been told that I ought not to retain a sur-
plus, but to reduce and repeal taxation boldly, even if it
produced a deficieiwy. When I heir of the hon. baronet
the member for Southwark (Sir William Melesworth)
being hiesed in a public assembly when he talked
of the maintenance of the national faith, I say
it is time when those who hold other opinions
should stand boltly forward and express them. (Hear,
hear)—And, how ever unworthily I may discharge it,
with the reeponsilielity which I hold in matters of
finance and coiner me, I feel it my duty to make this early
protest, and to call upon those who agree with me to do
their beet to ceunteract an opiuion ou dishonest and so dis-
creditable. (Hear, hear.) I cannot say that I should
think myself joet'fiell iu altering at all the estimate I
made of our probable income. With regard to our proba-
ble expenditure, that is contained in the estimates laid upon
the table of this house, and the most material items of
which have been already voted. (" Hear," and a laugh.)
I am not u-ing that as any argument, except to this extent:
we laid upon the table of the house the estimates which
we believed to he necessary. After the conduct of the
house two or three nights ago, it would be unfair to urge as
an argument that the estimates had been voted, But we
laid them on the table of the house, believing them to he
fairly and properly framed, with it cue regard to economy
on tie. one lentil, and to the demands of the country on the
other; surely, therefem, I arty say, without exciting the
ridicule of lion. gentlemen, that of a great portion of
those estimates, at West, the house has been pleased to ap-
prise. (11ear, hear.) The probable amount of surplus,
therefore. 1 take to be about what I stated
1,892.0001. Now, lam told that, even with this probable
surplus, I might strike off taxes to such an extent as would
produce an effect on the country, hat that the plan I have
',rimmed will not do so. (Hear, hear.) I plead guilty alto-
gether to that. 1 must conties that when I came to consider
the proposals which 1 should submit to the house, I did nut
consider that which would probably produce an effect upon
public opinion. 1 set demo to consider what taxes were
the must ohjeetionehle awl productive of the greatest mis-
chiefs; and the reiluetion of these taxes I propoeed. (Hear.)
There is one large duty which we have been re-1
wombed fur nut hiving dealt with—the duty upon tea.
I That duty, though high, is test a protective duty.
(Hear, hear.) Whatever the supplies may be from China,
*ere is no comp. tine country the supplies; from which
might bring down the prim of that article; and though
I have, on termer ticcasinns, expressed my opinion that it
would be a ilesinible thing to reduce the duty upon tea,
and though I retain that opinion, yet I think there are
other duties WWI have a prior claim for our considera-
tion. Had I pommel' a reduction of the duty on tea, I
know not whether I might not have been fairly called
upon at the sent.. time to deal with the duty on that ar-
ticle which is suppo,il to conic into serious competition
with tea—l mean the duty on malt—(hear, hear)—and
though the duty on tea is 200 per mut, and that
us malt only about GO per cent., yet I think I
might have been fairly remeed to attack from the
representatives of the agricultural interest, hail I dealt only
with the former. But, independently of that, I think other
duties hell a prier claiun em our consider at. . We hearealls
fur a sae9like of some 120,000/. per annum lli.oll Illeys'
certificates, of 1;11,000. upon advertisements, of 360,000/.
upon newspaper stamps, and the risk of about 100,000/.
upon Irish spirits. Uwe are to go on in this way, diminieh-
iteg the power of the Chancellor of the Exehequerto make a
great reduction of any material duty—(hear, hear)—if the
modern mysteue ie to prevail, that every surplus, however
small, is to be at once expended in the reduction of some
minor tax, neither I. one who tills this place, em

aar tam sem any one ..
ever do that which the house or the country. demand - make to be added to this for V-- present year halt the
considerable reduction at once. If that be the wish ut the amount of the window tax, because there is a half-
house, they must co-operate with the Chancellor of the years' window tax now due, and it will be re-
Exchequer, and enable him to do that which they require. evived in the July quarter. That will amount to
Sir Ch ides then went on to observe that he had been .1014,000/., nod on Ow present year, therefore, there
charged with hosing no principle in his budget, but he re- will be an amount of 924,0001. to cover every im-
plied that his principle had been to benefit the mass of the foreeeen expenditeire. But this will nut be the permanent
working classes, remembering that government W:l4 insti- margin. Now, Sir, 1 cannot say that I would be justified
tuted tier the. advantage of the many, and nut of the few, in proposing any further embed' than 'hose
This had been the key of all his arts, and he had never I have mentioned. I must aerniad the house again that
sought to study class interests. He had sought to give the there may he a possible demand upon us in consequence of
masses chi ap rood and cheap clothing, and, those objects the hostilities at the Cape of Good Hope. (Hear, li.ar.) I
having been accomplished, he had sought to improve their say possible &mud, and, if made, it is impossible to say
dwellings. For their wakes he had, lust year, reduced HOW what the extent of that demand may he. I cannot
the duty on bricks, and this year he had proposed to reduce help thinking and hoping that the placed at the
die
that upon foreign timber and upon windows, and when port of Sir 11. Smith may put a speedy termination to
that 'dynast be aecomplished, he should tandeler that he had these hostilities ; at the NOM' time we cannot forget the
closed Iris career well. After defending, in detail, the alio- time, trouble., and cost, which the firmer 110Ailitil, at the
s awl alterations of protective duties proposed in his Cape cost this country ; and under these eirtuinstancee,
former statement, he said that two of his proposed ar- no persons would be so unwise and prodigal cm to throw the
=nutmeats had been most unfavourably received— means of meeting any demand that may be made upon us
namely, that affecting the expense of lunatic asylums, nod away. (Hear, hear.) Besides, there is the positive de-
that of the duty en clover and grass seed, and mend, and the possible amount of the demand, made upon
these he might not fist it his duty to p.n.s in opposi- this country on the part of the East India Company.
hem to the wishes of these they were intended to be- I have great hopes that the real amount of the &-
tient. I am aware (the hon. gentleman continued) that mend of the East ludic Company may not be so large as ,1
a loud demand Iran been made for the unconditional it has been stated. There will Inclnca careful investigation
repeal of the wiudow duty. (Hear, hear.) The amount of into the matter, but if the demand is correct we must he
revenue derivable from that source is 1,816,090/.; whilst prepared to meet it. But I think it would be uuwi.e in me
the probable surplus is about 1,89'2,0001. Now, if I assent to be under the necessity of meeting tine demand which the
to that abolition, I leave myself a margin of some ham gentleman (Sir J. 'Hoag) may think proper to make.
and it 1 add to that the least possible expenditure tin account The house is now in possession of what I mean bi propose,
of the Keith. war. (Laughter, and ironical cries of o Hear," in the event el the house agreeing to my proposition for a
from the protectionist benches.) Du bon. gentlemen sup- renewal of the income-tax. But I hope the house will
pose that this house will suffer Britieh subjects vibe slaugh- allow me to advert strictly to the proposition of the right
tared and not protect theta? (Hear, hear.) Do they sup- hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. liveries.) The house should.
pose that those who have gins to that colony on the faith of know that that is the first step in the policy which Lord
our protection in u foreign land shall not be protected ? if' Stanley 11111101111 CA. (Ileac, hear.) The right hon. gentle-
st', I trust their opinions will not meet the approval of a ma-' malt very inuperly proposed to reduce the taxution no
jority of this house. (('heers.) Well, but if I add the small- I more than was consistent with the maintenance of the
est poisible demand on the ground of the Kaffir war, I national faith. I quite agree with the right hon. gentle-
thus umucessarily create a d I eficiency, which I hope no man that if the taxation is to be reduced, it is impossible
hon. gentleman to this house will require me to do. (Hear, ito reduce it at once by so large an amount us the amount of
hear.) Cur my own part, Ido not think 1 should be acting' the income lex. The right bon. genthanan's proposition is
justly, were Ito do so. (Hear, hear.) That which presses the first step towards that object. The difference between
upon the labouring population is not so much the amount us is, that I think that policy is wrung. (Ikea) I will
of the tax as the mode iu which it is levied. (Hear, hear.) admit to him that the tax when first imposed was
It is the reference to the number of Wi11,10.14, and not for a temporary purpose—(a hear, hear," from the protee-
to the value of the houses, of which they complain ; and if I tionists)—the temporary purpose ut meeting in de. ficiency.
I were to reduce the whole of the taxation so far as it But that purpose was accomplished. It was accomplished
presses on house property, I should postpone a claim of far in 1545. (Hear, hear.) But in 181.1 the income-tax was
more pressieg importance as regards the benefit of the tam- renewed for a different purpose—(ht ar, hear) -Mr the pur-
munity. Now let me re mind the house of the re- post' of enabling this house, to make improsements in our
quests that have been rank of the government an this I financial legislation, of removing impolitic restrictions, of
subject. One of the earliest parties who promoted this reducing the price of articles of consumption, and of re-
movement was a gentleman well known in this metropolis I moving duties which checked the development of the in-
as are owner of house property, Mr. Hicks. 'that gentle- dustry of this country. (('heers.) I admit that many
man. in a deputation to me, stated that they did not desire ;of these objects have been accomplished, but others
the abolitiou of tax as mirth eat the ground, i f p(cuniary remain to he accomplished. (Hear, hear.) My opinion,
as sanitary eausiderations; whilst a house tax he rep re- I therefore, is that we ought not to repeal this tax till
senteel as certain to fall, not on the occupier. but on the' these objects are accomplished. (Hear, hear.) I admit,
proprietor. What WAS the motion of my noble friend who that any material reduction of the income-tax ought to be
brought the question forward: Not that the house pro. followed by its extinction. (Hear, hear) I think it would
pride'r should be relieved from the taxation, but that no be highly impolitic to retain a small amount of income-tax.
restriction should be placed on air and light. (Hear. hear.) (Hear, hear.) I think that the present amount of income-
:he ' held me even by members of I tax y not a v.- - heavy one, either upon persons who hold

land that if the tax wet, renewed, in sinte of what the I
house should hear on Monday, they would never again be
free from it. (Hear, hoar.) The other parts of the budget
were no doubt improvements, and would be well received
by the right lion. gentleman's friends and supporters; but
they must be taken in conjunction with other great propo-
sitions. (Hear, hear.)
Lord It. GROSVENOR said he had never joined some
hon. gentlemen with whom he usually acted in their
of to the income tax. (Hear, hear.) lie had always
considered it desirable that there should be more of threat
taxation than there had formerly been. In the course of
the debates on the income tax he had declared the principles
on which he supported its imposition; and he would now
again state that nothing would give lion greater satiefaetion
than to see that tax permanently imposed ton the country
provided it were fairly assessed. lie confessed he bed never
'eon more astonished than he was at the outhumt of itttlig-
nation which came front the metropolis when his right hen.
friend proposed to take otf the window tax and impose u
holm, tax. His answer to objectors was uniformly this—
that he should he very happy to put into his own pocket the
amount which lie paid for income tax ; but that so long as
the poor man's tea, coffee, tobacco, and newspapers were
no highly taxed he could nut do so conscientiously. (Ileac,
hear.) Ile did hope that, now that the etterveseeme
had subsided, his couatituents would come to their 10.11Seb
--(laughter)—and he also hoped that his hon. friends the
metropolitan members would come to theirs. (Renewed
laughter.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had that
night proposed what appeared to him (Lord it. Grosvenor)
a very proper substitute for the window tax. As to the
income tax, the house al ld recollect that the working
classes did nut pay one farthing of it. He begged to give
notice that on the earliest day till which he could obtain an
opportunity of doing so, he should move the repeal
of the tax on atturuies' certificates. (" Hear, hear," and
laughter.)
Mr. lIUME said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had, in the commencement of his speech, accused him (Mr.
Hume) of making u proposal calculated to injure public
credit. Ile was left much at a loss by the right hon. gen-
tleman's observations' because he had sat down without any
further allusion to the subject matter. Ile wished latiore
he went further to hear from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, what he meant to do towards the reduction of the
national debt.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was Sur-
prised that vu old a member of the house did not know
that the reduction of the debt was a uniform operation pre-
sided for by act of parliament. That act provided that in case
of a surplus, one-fourth should be lipptupriatcd to the, rt-
(lnstitut of the national debt.
Mr. II UME said that his object was to prevent the opera-
tion of that act by exhausting the surplus on the reduc-
tion of taxation. It was quite idle to talk of the debt
while taxes remained which pressed so heavily uu the poor.
(hear.) There were the taxes on soap, on piper, the adver-
tisement duty, and the tax on newspapers, tilt abolition of
any or all of which he would prefer to the reduction of the
debt. The noble lord who had spoken earlier in the evening,
yoke as if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
merely renewed his budget, but he must admit
that the most offensive part—the unequally arranged house
tax—was properly modified. As to the income tax, he (Mr
flume) --pared to support it, with a view of reducing
. .

Allot was the languve to . very ..c,
deputations who waited on me accompanied by my ; land or on professional men, considering the security with
noble friend, Lord Duncan ? (Hear, hear.) Not that they which they enjoyed their property. (Hear, hear.) But the
came to seek a remiss.ou of pounds, shillings, and pence. • great objection to the income-tax is its inquisitorial chanse-
They rviiresented how the ilwLllings of the poorer classes ter. and that objection would apply to the tux if it was
were atfteteil ; and they esked to be relieved from such only one penny in the pound as muss as it does at its pre-
evils, the existence of which I admitted, and still admit; sent rate. (Hear, hear.) I thick, therefore, if we are to
but they never pretended to a,crt that they had claims to have an income-tax at all, we bllOlllll have the benefit of it.
entitle them to a total renti-,ioa of the tax. By the tax to , tow, my belief is, that if this change is made we
be assessed on houses, instead of windows, I could have may look to a revival of the revenue before long, and that
met all dont:ands founded on sanitary considerations ,• but I with a revival of trade and the general industry of the
should have imposed, at the same time, a burden of so dif- country, it may be possible to repeal or at least to reduce
ferret a nature, and in many cases so much greats rin , this tax. (Hear, hear.) Let me now refer to what took
amount, that 1 should have caused great di-satisfaction. • place in two years. I will take the year in which the in-
(hear, hear.) By a duty of Is. Ukl. in the pound on come tax came into operation, and the last year in which
dwelliut lii
iJuses, and Is. id. in the pound on shops there ; e have any accounts of the amount produ.eed by it. he
s.ch it came ---• oth

was pr..,
other taxes that pressed upon the people; but be was nut
orepared to maintain it, fur the purpose of maintaining
large military establishments. (Hear, hear.) It was the
expense of those establishments that had caused the defi-
ciencies of former years. The right lion. baronet talked of
the revenue recovering, but the fact was that the revenue
hall never failed; it was the expenditure that had gradually
increased. The right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr.
(ferries) had said nothing about reducing those establish-
ments, although that must be a necessary preliminary to
the reduction of the income tax. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer said very properly, " You have voted my esti-
mates, and therefore must accede to the ways and means."
Ihe right hon. gentleman was right, and those who op-
posed him had no right to complain if they had

would ..... realised 1,800,00014 btit the result' Of that
would have been to double the assessment on many
of the lw•st cl.t•s of houses in :this and other large
towns. though in other respects I am disposed
to think it would be equitable end fair. But
my °Nut has been to giva a considerable relief to all par-
ties. My proposil would have t d'ectc.l a reduction of the
bunhu in A1.:1,i; for I ',rope,. d that no person should
pay inure than two-thirds of the amount which he at pre-
sent pats. (Hear. hear.) I could not apply the same rule
- tho-e that - - r assessed to

tear in which it came into operation, ending 4t.. Apra.
1444, the last year of which we have any returns is the year
ending .sth April, 1850. The ordinary revenue in the
former
,rear, that is to say from taxes, excise, and &tulips,
was 45,43,000/. Between 1841 and last year seven
lions of taxes have been repealed, and yet in that year--
the year ending sth April, 1850—the ordinary revenue
was precisely the same as it was in 18134—viz., 45,600,000. V.
have repealed 7,000,0001. of taxation under the pressure of
the income tax, and notvrithstending the ordinary revenue
has revived. (Cheers.) The same amount of income has

previously agreed to the estimates.- It was dd., gen-
tlemen who had voted with him (Mr. Hume) who
had a right to complain—who had opposed the estimates,
believing them to he four millions more than they ought
to be. 17te Chancellor of the Exchequer took credit
for promoting sanitary measures by abolishing the
window tax, but was there not another important class of
measures—the educational, which were sadly retarded by
the paper duties? (Hear, hear.) He could nut, therefore,
support any reduction of the income tax, but he would
sup its being applied to the reduction of excise and other

to ucelwasCs, because s never were -
the window tat could not be taxed iu that regard. I there-
fire• deemed it the fairest mode of dealing with the princi-
ple to unpile u uniform duty on old and new how".
(llear, hear.) But the Marylebone and Pancras gentlemen
complain of the injustice of my proposal, inasmuch as
0111 say they would have more to pay, and would
be far better pleased to be put on a footing with
the new houses. I must certainly say their com-
plaint,' went more loud than juq. The Marylehoue
parish now pays 90,00111., whilst by my proposal they would

been received notwithstanding the relief that has been
given to the consumer. (Hear, hear.) And surely, with
this proof before us of the elasticity of the trade and re-
0121Vell of the country, with this proof that the income tax
does not su unduly press on the energies of the country, we
arc justified in the confidence, that if we remove this ob-
lectionable tax we may be still in the same position we were
en when the income tax was imposed, whilst commerce has
improved, the revenue remained the same, and whil,t,
what is of far greater importance, the great body

appertits _
oppro.soove duties.
Mr. TRELAWNY mid he had put upon the paper a
motion for applying two millions of the annual resenne to
the reduction of the national debt, and he was still of,
opinion that such a measure would he the hest mode of re-
lieving taxation.
Mr. H. BAALLIE said he did not mean to enter into
the general discussion, but to confine himself to the
proposal for the renewal of the income tax. He had
' heard with regret that it was not the intention of govern-

be charged only 60,0001.• or, under a uniform rate, 71,000!. of the population of this country have improved, sent to make any reduction or modification of that tax,
A tax of le in the pound on houses and 9d. in the pound on in every degree of comfort, health, and independence. but that it was to he re-in-mood with all the original objee-
shops would give 6.4,0001. So that the proposal of which (Cheers.) Sir, this is not the time to refer to any of those lions. Ile had been somewhat surprised to hear some of
the gentlemen complain is less onerous than if their wishes discussions which willtekeplace on Monday, whenthe income the arguments by which the right
shonourable gentleman
were complied with, by putting them on a footing with tax is to he brought under the consideration of the house. sought to rectintmend the measure to the house.
now houses, which would entail on them from 8,0001. to I have stated to the house the proposal which we intend to The right honourable gentleman stated that he had
11,0001. more than would my proposal. (Hear, hear) I offer for its approval. If the house consents to adopt been originally nil-erns to the tax, but had seen
admit my proposal was deficient in the uniform principle, the measures of relief I propose, a great benefit will reason to alter hi+ opinion, in consequence of it having
which, on the whole, I regard to be the most just. be afforded to the whole body ofeeneumere of this country, ' enabled him to i ket large reductions in import duties.
(Hear, hear.) I therefore propose altogether repeal- whilst, if the policy advocated by the right hon. gentleman lie said he had lies ii enabled to reduce the import duties,
ing the window duty—(loud cheers) leaving out of opposite (Mr. Hemet) be adopted, it will lead to the rcimpo- ' and to substitute indireet in place of direct taxation, and ho
consideration altogether the number of windows or open. , 'item of an import duty upon corn. If that policy he carries! then called upon the house to support the income tax, on
lugs they may have, and thus getting rid of every ! out, not only will it withhold from the labouring man the bene. ' the ground that it was his intention to follow in the foot-
objection that may he entertained on sanitary ground., fits we propose to give him, but it will deprive him of many of steps of Sir Robert Peel. Now, he (Mr. 13aillie)
and thus affording raja" to all. (Renewed cheers.) I pro- those which have been conferred upon him elready by our' must protest ageinst the supposition that Sir Robert
pine a uniform rate of 9d. in the pound on dwelling-houses, recent policy. (Cheers.) 1 cannot sufficiently deprecate Peel had recominended the income tax to the house
and ffil. in the pound on hoines having shops. (('heers.) The the result of such legislation. (Year, hear.) I certainly !on such terms as these. Sir Robert Peel, when ho
duty I propose will be a uniform rate ou all old houses as do attach more importance in a political than in a commer- first proposed it, proposed it upon the ground that there
well as new of 9.1. in the pound on the annual value; but vial pent of view to the revered of our policy. : was a great deficit in the exchequer,
l that there had been in
in the case of all houses connected with the occupation of I do believe that it is essential to the well doing several preceding yens an annual iel deficit in the exetimer,
land I propose it eliell only be 6d. in the pound on the an- lof the country that the people should be contented and' that it amounted to e very large sum of money, and, there-
nuel value. (Hear, hear.) The house will remember also happy under our legislation. Ido believe that if they feel' fore, he called upon the house to sustain the public credit.
that I proposed at the same time to exempt from taxation themselves to be the objects of our solicitsule, that their' Ile then propowil the income tax for a limited period, be-
altogether all houses not exceeding '2O/. in value; at present morel, social, and material condition is an object of care to cause, as he believed, the resources of the country
I propose to retain that exemption. (Rear, hear.) Now, us, that they will feel grateful and be attached to the insti- would not require it to be imposed for a longer
let us sec what will be the result. In the first place I get lotions of their country. (Cheers.) If we have enjoyed period than three years. This was. the general ground
rid of all reference to the window tax in every shape. the benefit of that policy—if we have had proofs of its lun which he prepmel it in 11413. But, what
I have reduced the number of houses paying that tax advantage in the confidence and :duck-tient of the people del he propose as the grounds for its renewal in 1413? Ile
from 590,000 to 4110,00 U ; whilst I confer a benefit that did three year+ ago— (cheers)—if we could laugh at the nppre. I then said, s• Ido not wish to say one word in favour of the
not exist under the old house tax to shops, victualling , beanies of disturbances which at least took hold of the ; continuation of this tax beyond the three years. Ido not
/
houses, and houses connected with the occupation of land, minds of hon, gentlemen opposite at that time--if we have ! think the house will agree that the income and proper[
to an extent of 1.150,0001. The tax which I pro se been enabled to bid defiance to those temular insurrections; tax as now imposed ought to be permanent." (Hear, hear.
amount to 720,000 e, instead of 1et)0,0001. (Ileac, hear.) which overspread Europe, and which in many instances I Well, then, what wine the statement of Sir It. Peel in ISt
'there are some few eases in which, by my proposed, the were quenched in blood, I think we leave no reason to' when he promisee its renewal again ? lie then said that
rate on houses will be raised ; but some caws there are so regret that policy. (The right bon. gentleman resumed his "One of his 1.1:astIllS fur asking the house to consent to a
anomalous that it is impossible to deal with them other- seat amid loud cheers.) continuance of the income tax for three years longer was,
wine (Hear. hear.) But all houses will be at liberty Mr. II Ellett ES observed that after what hail taken place that last year, in u time of pea, they had heen obliged to
to open windows to au unlimited number. (Hear, hear.) last night he did not expect the right hon. gentleman add 10,00(1,0001. to the debt, and that on that very account
The relief, as I have said, will be unequal, depend- would have taken the present opportunity of provoking inerineed efforts ouht to be made to meet the expenditure
ing entirely on the district in which the houses are situated. that debate which had by common consent been patterned of the country." (hear, hear.) Now, the present Chan-
In the better class of streets, where the value is high. the till Monday. lie (Mr. Herrieo) would wait till the ',miser cellor of the Eachequer inked the house to renew
relief will not he to the same extent as in streets of lesser opportunity arrived to convince the house that the policy the income tax in order that he might be enabled to remove
value; and houses in the country, where value is less in the right hon. gentleman advocated ought to be rescinded. import duties ; hut, if that were eo, the honse would be
proportion to the number of houses, will he relieved more The right hon. gentleman had provoked a recurrence to very much inclined to perceive that the income tax was
than amities in fashionable localities of towns. (Hear, what he said on the renewal of the income tax in 1815. In likely to remain a penneneut burthin on the people--
hear.) The busses of country gentlemen and clergymen proposing the renewal of the tax Sir Robert Peel 01114:Tied and, if it was te be a permanent bunlen, then it would ho
as also the Griner, paying between 200/. and :Will. that in 1812 he was coutented with propaing the impose for hon. members to eoneder whether there ought not to
a year, will be relieved, which was not the roe tion of the tax for three veers, in the belief that, if it lie some modification of the great injustice which the tax
previously. (Iliac, hear.) At present all farm knees should be found at the end el' the period that the measures undoubtedly worked. (Hear, hear.) lie should like to
above 211111. a year paid window tax, whilst no income by which it was accompanied had not accomplishee their know why theuwners and occupiers of land should be de-
tax was paid until the value arrived at 3001. a year. No purpose, the house would consent to its continuance ; and privet' of the privileges enjoyed by other classes of the coin-
relief would he given by a reduction of the Moine tax he went on to say that it was obvious that the elects con- mutely—he invent the privilege of returning annually the
equivalent to that which will he given by a reduction of the tempi:dot had not yet been prosluced. Now, what did the net produce of their receipts, :mil paying on that net pro-
window duty: whereas, by my proposal, there will right him. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) duce ? Now these owners and occupier. were conipelled to
be a material reduction of taxation, in most eases my on that occasion ? Sir Robert l'eel having stated that pay on their nominal Minnie, which was very different
amounting to almost an exemption. (Hear, hear.) he believed the tax to be one which pressed mainly on the from their net inconie, Liner they had pied all CWllllll.'l.
I shall now proceed to quote some instances of the extent of rich and did not affect the poor, the right -honour- (Hear, hear.) On what ground, then, was it, if we were to
relief, my object Acing to put the case fully and fairly he- able gentleman denied that such was its opem• have this us a permanent tax, that the landed proprietor
fore the house. (Hear.) I. have nothing to conceal, smd it tine Ile would quote from the debate : "Sir Charlie Wood shouldnot be allowed to pay on theme produce I,tha, income ?
is right that the house should know a hat it is I propose. said grounds had twee stated which had led him very touch to Fanner., again, were taxed upon their euppesed profits.
In Marylehone and et. l'ancrue they now pay 92,000/.. under acquiesce in the propene'. One was, that the tax was one Ile sincerely trusted that the know would enter fully
what I propose they will pay 50.1,410/., being a rtelection that rested exelusively on the rich, and made no reduction into the question of whether the tax was to be penna-
nt' nearly one-half. In Regent-street, which is the strongest from the employment of artisans. So far from its being a nine Ile was not objecting now to its being mole perms,-
case that can be put, the present animmt of the tax is tax exclusively on the rich he believed it pressed on the neat or even to its increine, but he was advocating the
2,2001.; under what I propose 9it will he 1,00/. In Finsbury- labouring population by diminishing the means of giving necessity of its !wing fully and properly adjusted. (Hear,
square the present amount is 725/., in future it will them employment —(e hear, hear," and laughter)—and he hear.)
be ee3/. In Portman-square the preemt amount of did not believe that the right hon. emelt:num (Ste Robert Mr. W. WILLIANIS staid the people of England were
the tax is 725/. in future it will be 61111. In Belgrave- Peel) could think it a tax which •bore exclusively on the now anxiously expecting that smue change, in accordance
square there will he an actual increase of 101. (Laughter.) rich. because if he did, why did he most impow it on Ire- with the expreesed feeling* of the inhabitants of thus
But as the gentlemen who reside there hare for the lam% ?" (Hear, hear.) Did the right hon. gentlemen retain large towns, would he made in the amended budget,
most part houses in the country niece they will be indent- those opinions? There was another reason fur omen but he leilieved that great surprise would he felt at
nifit i
el in that way ; Air the reduction n the Limitary sition given by the right hon. gentleman, and he must state finding that un change bed been made. (Ilear.i Tho
will be more consieerable, and, taking the two together, it because he was answering a direct attack on the mile", Chancellor of the Exchequer had boasted that Le was
they will conme in for as much of the benefit a. their neigh- which he advocated. The right lion. gentleman said now placing the house tax 1111 a rational hooting ; and, no
Aare. (Hear.) It was found impossible to get any returns " they must have the question fully and fairly discussed, doubt, if the principle of a house tax were admitted, the
from exclusively country district., but I hum a return of whether the income tax was to be mended right hon. gentleman had placed it out such a footing ; but
42 of the hest houses in the six southeni counties, and I as a permanent tax. Let it be discussed on he (Mr. Williems) contended that there was no nettesity
find that the effete will he a reduction of the sex its cm n merits, ms its own grounds ; let them not be led on for the imposition of any house tax at all, and
from 2,0101. to 51371. (Hear. hear.) In Liverpool step by step into a coulee front which they might not therefore- lie should give the proposal the most
the amount of the tax now paid is 19,11e0/.. it will find it possible afterwards to extricate themselves." decided opposition in every stage of its pnigrese.
he 9,5001. lo Manchester the present amount is 30.000/. ; ; (('hors and laughter) That was his (Mr. Berries) view ; (Hear.) A mod extraorilinery error had been 111111 b. in the
it will be 15,000/. In Itirminghem it is Its,lool. ; it will ! and on eloniley next he should, with the permintion of the right hon. gentleman's ialculationse for he had assumed
be 8,1001. And in the city which my noble friend (Limit)un- ! knee, advance grounds which, he trusted, would lie that the telling oil in the revenue would equal the amouut
can) represents, it will lie reduced from 23,0001. to 5el)001. ' sufficient to induce the house to pause before they made 11111111, in the reduction of taxation. 'I his principle was
This tax is not a tax on the people but a tax on prnperty.l this tux perpetual. If the house lon the first legitimate entirely erroneous, as would Ise wen suit refieenee to
(Hear.) And if the gentlemen behind me who are CATO- opportunity of fulfilling the engagement of parliament the past. The right honourable gentlemen had laid
caws for direct taxation ore dissatisfied with this tax, 1 do, with respect to this tax—the engagement that it should not greet siren on the great falling off which had taken
not know what direct taxation would eatisfy them. (I leer.) I , be permanent, but 'should only centime for a fixed 'wriest place in the revenue previous to the impaition of the
propose to repeal that which peewee . meth on that: whose • —no man iii the country could be SO foolielt as to believe ineotne tax. But how did that arise ? The comiumeentent
interests lie proems., so much to advocate, and I leave it on! that the tax would ever be taken oft' the shoulders of the; of it wits in 1439, and it continued during 1310, '4l, and
the owners of house property, or, where it is not paid by the, people. In consequence of the understanding conic ; '42, suit ill those four years the expenditure exceeded the
lowans of house property, on thou: who occupy houses in I
to on the previous evening, he would not then! revenue by 9
r 0,200,001/. ; but, if the limited ex-
pportim norms. to their (Hear, hear.) There are enter further into the mantel of the income ' penditure of 1433, '3l, 'II, and '36 had nut been
$,500,000 houses in this country. Of these 3,IOIMM° will . tax. But he could not sit clown without adverting to some of augmented in the subsequent yeant, the income tax would
be totally exempt trent the tax—(wer, hear) —and that j the topics touched upon in the speeeh of the right hon. gen- have been wholly mm ie:nary. (Hear.) Ile had been
' which 1 ',repose to retain will be paid by 400,000 houses I demon. Ile niurvelleil much at the course the right lion. quite surprised to hear the noble lord the member fur
I
which are the most valuable house, in the country. (Cheers.) gentleman had pursued in reference to what was first and Middlesex (Lord IL. (ienvelior) delivering a lecture to the
This, then, is the extent to a hush 1 prepay to retain a' foremost in his train of re:minting, namely, the maintenance metropolitan teembers, and saying that " they had hien
. portion of the present tax out hotly, property—getting rid of of a surplus revenue. (Mar, lean) It was surprising to lout of thier 141111/11/1." (. Hear,' and laughter.) Now this
the most part objectionable pa of the tee, and levying it in ; Hal the right hon. gentleman talking so much about main- stiff:ranee betwe et the :woken( the noble lord and the sinees
proportion to the annual value of the house, the amount taller); the public credit, when, ;wending to his own sate-, of the metropolitan 1111111lX114 was this—that, if the gentle-
of relief athinkel will W 1,136,000/. ()tear.) la the propuee; meat, he was ',repining to reduce the eurplus to a sum not men un the to nury Innehee were in their seines, the noble
tion which I made with respect to coffee and timber, I do exceeding 400,000/. (Mare In the whole coin.: of hesextw- lord was iu his sIIISVS —(•. Hear," acid continued laugh-
not know that I can make any change for the better.. knee he der. Berries) had never listened to anything so in- ter)—but that the tuetrupolitau members were influenced
(Hear, hear.) And I 'eat adhere to the preposition I' eimeistent Did the retention of 3401001. bear out the right by to consideration, arising from. the ..U.,4 of the treesury
made with regard to both these articles. I meat, to adhere i honourable gentleman's lofty pretensione about muiii- benches, but were solely 'guided in their eimilnet by what
to the proposition I then made, namely, a rieluetion of .sne- Mining the public credit, providing amply for the public they considered the interns of their constituents. (Cheer')
fourth of the intoned duty on eoll'ee, removing, sit the !atm..' service, and always having a large milieus to insure the Loral It. GROSVENOR. hoped that after the extreordi-
time, the protective duty to the foil extent on foreign puleic against tensible contingencies? (Hear. hear.) Why nary charge which had just limit suede tie:dust him, the
cuff e. The duty on sawn timber iii Zee, end on hewn his scheme was the reverse of all this; and if the reed hum. house would permit him to say a emit in explanation.
timber tie, and I still adhere to the proposition I muck • gentleman intended to pursue *ltch a policy he should at (hear, hear.) Ile appealed to hon. member* whether this
for retleeing thesek due to 10s. and 7s. Ike (Hear, hear.) ' least have spared his eulogiume on u policy of a different charge was not utterly destitute of fliutoletion. (Hear,
The lon Cu, thew two items will be 40),1100/e and this, ' diameter. (Ileac, hear.) What had the house to do with ; hear.) The lion. member for Lembeth had :lel:WWII hint Of
added to the loss 1111 the window tux, will be a total less to - the iiitentions of Lord Stanley ? (Ikar, hear.) Why did having said thet the inetropoliten mmulieni were e out of
the revenue of 1, 436,0001. There will then be after this the right hon. gentleman introduce them in his speech ? I their west," (Loud laughter.) Now, e hat he (Lord IL
permanent
year a surplus, if Icm cell it surplus, but there I Then? W:114 no iteceesity for doing so in moving the renewal eiresocuor) really did say ass this : le expressed a been
will be a tenement mnein of triseooo/. There is of the income-tax. lle would tell the people of Eng- that the metropolitan members "would seem to their
.. . . • • - i
tee - - ''-- 1 Ir

senses." ("Hear, hear," and col:rimed laughter.) In
order to vindicate himself, the hon. member for Landreth
had said that he (Lord U. (irevenor) was so thoroughly
tied hand and foot to the present miaistry that, if they were
in their senses, he was in his seises. Now, he did not feel it
necessary tee say more in reply to such un accusation,
than this—that those whin had returned hint to that house
would not return any man who would sacrifice his indepen-
dence in the manner here alleged. (Hear, hear.) Ile had
sat there for many years, and never until that moment had
such a charge been brought against hint. lie haul some-
times differed with the gentlemen nu the treasury
and three he had taken ens independent course, whittle had
been droned deserving the appruhatima of the 14,900
electors who had returned lain tee that house. (Hear, hear.)
Lord DUNCAN said he would nut occupy much of thu
attention of the contortive, us many occasions would bo
afforded hereafter for the discussion of the budget; it gave
him satisfaction to hear, in fir 33333 re eloquent terms than
he could use, and that frau hi, right 1 friend the. Chan-
, cellar of the Exchequer, u detail ut the deep injuries the
: window tax inflicted on the working classes of this country.
(I I ear.) The noble lord the member forMidd lowa had e wowed
lei, surprise ut the burst of indignation with which prc-
viuus budget had been met. Ile (Lord Duncan) haul joined in
' that burst of indignation, but he could not now c .ur with
those who regarded this swop proposition as exactly simi-
lar to the farmer one. (Hear.) On the contrary, the two
prepositions were very distinct, dilleriug totally from one
another; and, therefore, it was very possible that dif-
ferent opieeionwof both would lee entertained by the country.
With regard to the propositions in the first budget it would
be reeollered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad
endeavoured to retain two-thirds of the window tax oil thu
old houses, and that the new house. were to be treated in a
very different manner. That appeared a most unjustifiable
principle, foul one that could not lee defended. (Hear.)
Anotlwr objection to the original proascsel was this, that
the number of Windt/111i in inniStSCOUld only be ascertained by
another assessment tl woughout the kingdom, and then, Inc her
tiered, it would be found that houses bud a far larger number
of windows than was supposed, thus raising the amount of
the tax upon the individual occupiers. (Ileac) There
was another objection—nano ly, that houses w filch
were mow exempt from taxation would be included in the
original plan. (Ileac) Now, with respect to the present
plan, which certainly seemed to prove the truth of the old
WNW', that " seetend thoughts are best," it involved the
total abandonment of the window tax. In the Krona
place, relief was to lon extended to tier amount of Z. 00,04101.
a year mune than the original phut contemplated ;
and, in the third, 1.10,000 houses would be relieved
altogether by the present phut. Without pledging himself
to support this ourund plan, he would content himself with
saying that he considered it far preferable to the former
one. (liver, hear.)
Sir Lt. lIALL said that as he was one of the members who
west thought to bee "out ut his senses"— (a laugh) —he might
he permitted perhaps to make a few observation, tie the
how.ee on this subject. Ile contended that the noble lord
tier member fur Middlesex ought rather to have spoken
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer being "out of his
senses'," than of the metropolitan members being out
of theirs; fur while the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had ehangral his mind very suddenly, the metro-
diWu had not changed their minds at all

• rated greatly that the right hon. gentleman had
re.
not seen the expediency of proposing the renewal of this
income tax under a new time; hut he would postpone what
he had to say on this *abject until the question came to be
morn regularly diseussetl. With regard to the proposal
of the right hon. baronet the Chanceiler of the Exchequer
in reterence to the window tax, he would only any that he
wa, of opinion that by ',rumor ccuuonty and reduction of
expenditure that impost might have ht'ee entirely repealed
without the necessity of bringing forward any substitute.
Mr. SPOON lilt thought that the right hon. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought. nut to let tic night
pass without some mute distinct intimation than he had
Yet offered, as to tin modifications he had to propose,if any,
cu the income tax.
N(''

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that the proposal WM, to renew the income tax fur the 64M0
term for which it had hitherto been renewed—vie., for three
years. With regard to the details of the schLdule,lw thought
the hon. gentlemen would see that it was latter to reserve
the diseu,sioa on these points. There had been numerous
objections uttered that evening, to schedules A, 14 and 1);
and to unravel the complicated WO/ would obviously Ivo
very iiimuvenient on this occasion. !lc was prepared to go
fairly into the fullest discussion of all these matters; but
the house, he hoped, would ive that it was not cape-
.

perceiv,
'heist to cater on such a debate at present. (Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY cow,idered that the extraordinary state-
ments made that evening by the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer were of a tendency most destructive to public
credit. The right honourable gentleman 'started with
a theory that it was indisiwnsable, for the preser-
vation of public credit that, in all financial arrangements,
a large margin should always be left available at the din-
po,al of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but he had
totally ailed, in his present proposals, in carrying that