The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-17 00:00:00

the privy council, is order that the house should tee in what
degree the course of expenditure toil year, which was the
same as the last, should be adopted.
THE TWEED.
Mr. MUNTZ inquired whether it was the intention of the
government to take any steps to mark its sense of the ;tal-
ks% conduct of the Spanish commander of the vend which
went to the rescue of the unfortunate pumpers of the
Tweed ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the government had received
with the greatest satisfaction the account of the very heroic
conduct of the Spanish captain to whom the hon. gentleman
had referred, and Lord Auckland had been charged by her
Majesty to express to that Spanish captai i the satisfaction
with which she heard of his conduct, and to propose to him
the acceptance of a medal, on which would be recorded the
;services which he rendered to the survivor i of that unfortu-
nate ship. Sho also directed that a grant of the sum of 500!.
should be enclosed to him in a manner most acceptable to
that most gallant officer, to show the deep sense which her
Majesty and the government entertained of his heroic
couduct.
PRISONS BILL.
Dr. BOWRING wished to knew when the house would
go into committee on the Prisons Bill, • hich he saw upon
the orders for this day ?
Bir G. OIIEY said thst it was the intention of the govern-
ment to proceed with the bill this day week.
CUSTOMS DUTIES.
Mr. NEVIDEG ATE asked for a return of what alteration
had taken place in the tariff of foreign couutries sines 1844 ;
whet alteration bad been made in the customs duties of the
British possessions, in the colonies; what had been the
exports of the priacipal articles of manCarture for the last
three years; what quantity of provisions had been intro-
duced, and what foreign ministries had imposed prohibitory
or export duties on articles to be imputed into this country.
He had asked for these returns before, and he thought that
it was in consequence of want of information, arising from
negligence, that they were unable and unwilling to furnish
them.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the hon. gentleman and the
house were under a misapprehension if they considered that'
the government were unwilling to lay these returns on the
table. These were to be made by the customs, who stated
that they would require in immense amount of time to pre-
pare them. For the purpose of completing • portion of
them it was necessary to communicate with her Majesty's
ministers and consuls in foreign countries, to which commit-
stations replies should be received. It eras impossible that
th could be received at so early • period as this.
Mr. BANKES said that the reply of the hon. gentleman
was not satisfactory inasmuch u he did not state any definite '
period within which they might have the returns completed '
end hid on the table.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that all the information that was in
the possession of the board of trade could be laid on the
table now, and all that they wanted to complete the returns
wan the replies from the consuls abroad.
ABOLITION OF DUTIES ON BUTTER AND
CHEESE.
Mr. LEFROY wished to know whether the hon. gentle-
man the member for Winchester intended to bring forward
his bill for the abolition of duties es butter and cheese.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said that he had no doubt given notice
of his intention to introduce this bill, but, that, as he saw,
from the position in which they were at pre-cut placed from
the great necessity of keeping up the dues of war, that he
would have very little chance of success, he would abandon
it for the present.
ENCUMBERED ESTATES IN SCOTLAND.
Lord DUNCAN wished to ask the Lord Advocate whether
the government had taken into consideration a bill for facili.,
tating the sale of encumbered estates in Scotland, and, if so,
when it was probable that it would be introduced ?
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the subject was under
the consideration of the government with the view of framing
a bill for that purpose, and such a bill may be introduced
this session.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
On Lord J. RUSSELL moving the third reading of this
Mal,
Capt. CORRY said that he wished to take the last oppose.
Lenity of expressing his opinion on this measure. It was a
measure which was ea dangerous that no one had been
courageous enough until the present time to propose such a
bill. It was not the opinion alone of the most experienced
and humane landlords of Ireland that out-door relief was
dangerous in that country, but it was the opinion of com-
missioner after commissioner. He should like to know,
in the southern and western parts of Ireland, where the
excess of population west far beyond the amount of
the production of the soil, how it was possible for the people
to be maintained by the landlords, when their maintenance
would coat a great deal more than the rental received by the
landlords. It we, his belief that in such districts the bill
would have the effect of confiscating property. He wished
that gentlemen opposite, who were not Irish landlords,
would take this subject home to themselves, and take into
consideration what would be the effect of suck a bill on their
country, where the whole rental of a farm would go to
the support of the destitute en it. After this bill had mused
the confiscation of property, it would not be successful in
affordifte adequate relief to the poor of Ireland. Being un-
successful :n that respect, the noble lord would not then be
entitled e,..1, by what other :eau the people of Ireland
were to be fed ? That question, howes7. he world not
lure any hesitation in answering. If the noble lord merely
Primed to the smiling extrameAnery distress in Ireland, he
lii6el 2!6Burs. adilk twat it was only to be met by tempo.
w' einedientei ~ It he alluded to ',,no viand poverty of
Ireland, heallialhtlint the government would have adopted
a wiser colder It they arigetponed any alterations until they
were in a peeldsmi ea lieher *mead same better system of
poor-law. He amianW by aging that the bill be read a
third time this day dune anethe.
Mr. F. FFRENCH said the attention of the house to
the large amounts of dee* hem fever which were taking
place in Ireland; and the great want of proper medical in-
spection. Memo geoid be taken to compel the medical
officers to attendee the amberge of their duties.
Lord JOCELYN said that he looked upon this measure
with some degree of appaeltemelen. Ifs wished that the
alterations which had bits made might have the effect of
making it operate without &lager to Ireland, yet be thought
that the government thendil have brought in a temporary in
steed of a permanent measure for a temporary distress.
Me did not 11th spear-law could be carried out in Ireland
without the treakhers test, which had been found so efficient
gado wintry. Aegis bill came before the house as part of
wet eisser he the improvement of Ireland, he did not
ash=ain oppesing it,and be fully concurred with his
l the member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinek) that
the walla of this eenntry could not be better employed than
In elialeine the rearana of Ireland. Looking at the mea-
nies which the Mills had at the heed of the government
had aireduced. be bodged that If a fair and hearty sup-
port erniglan to tiro msasm'ae, they would be found to be
mesa berdelsl to baba. He knew that many persona
..annul the 11111011/611 of Or government were too favour-
ed& le the lendleeds et that vestry ; he woe not there to
Mad these pIIONII ; but be believed that there had been
=gagiarellen In many of the charges made again!!
It WO Itinoglit the landlords 111. irel, atone that
they must graltie let the improvement of the country, by
Warding entreenagenant to those who were willing to
their day, end impelling others who were not
so to do se fatal
Eslountry es to I he he believed that the great-
=tweed
ma awl power of Enema ed in a great measure on
the emeift end presperlid et Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He
Honked the gag aid et the head of the government for
the knowledge whisk re had displayed of the want* of
Ireland, and the nemeures which he had consequently pro-
pounded. It waggly by a wise and liberal system of legisla-
tion that Ireland meld be raised to the position which she
fairly ought to oceney with reference to England. (Hear.)
Mr. TRELAWMT did not understand upon what prin-
ciple emigration mkt be offered in lieu of out-door relief.
It must be paid he by the state, and, therefore, he main-
tained that it was oily out-door relief in another shape, and
whether a tax was levied far the purpose of exporting or
supporting the poor, it would 'stimulate population in the
am* degree. He thought, after all, that a poor-law in fee-
ble* nee but a compromise between property and mendi-
, and be thought that an efficient poor-law, with
relict, where it was necitesay, wan one of the best
remedies for the evils of bag&
Sir W. JAMBS geld net understand the doctrine of the
bee. seeenheijm Tubes* (Mr. 'frelawny), inasmuch as
the elta eteg easeshed yam of emigration would be to
send per or of the fromatry, and the effect of out-door
NOM mould be to lump lam in it. Although the proposed
1•10111/1 VI/ aped ate, yet, in order to enable it to work
eeC, It nes that it should be aceompanied by
Mbar essanies, the ' et which should be to relieve the
Ind ease ream lithe population which now premed
gra It.
Mr. P. RC/ROM ingrated many of the alterations which
led been main is the iresay, all of which were intended
to few the hadiedit et begot Amongst the many
loge eneesdens whisk led been made, he would first
allude to the esesell SIMS wbieh had been so altered that
it was new ingsedbio to grant out-door relief unless the
weaklier* was kit, whereas, se the clause originally stood,
the seaselmieges heti the power eteedering out-door relief.
Another alteration wee, the gaga., of the number of
es °Akio guardians, which would now treble the
number of elected guarding; that was felt in Ire-
land to be • great emenion to the landlords.
He was of opinion Out the attempt to introduce the clause
for imposing the whole rate es the occupiers—which was
one a the seat diegreeetal and 1111Nostrous propositions ever
tomb In peimane—ereeld, If ansaissful, be productive of
the men tad elan be Irdeind. The argument of the
et Deills, wing granting out-door relief, re-
selstAll=f inellissa leak The fir 4 was the physical
faipeadMilty a talattA too.rt her own poor ; the second
was, get dire giving ef relief would lead to a eon-
bead= a y and =
as third, that it would demoralize
the With reopen to the first proposi-
tion, be ellsant, rye the par et Ireland were now
sappeeted essallwa ; emelt le the second, he would,
ay, that the MINIM a Ireland amounted to 17,000,0001.
end that 110111 net be a sully exhausted. Besides,
Waft et be dld tbeill is peapliar would lead to increment
trbooryord the orp. on of rierismary, he did not
Ark am VIII SW INlMllkureaffellitil that any part of
the 17,101JIWIL w bs ad ern. With regard to
Os ilreepaillits,l t Is kid net known that it emanated
keen nu sielthiliep et Ws own &web, he world not have
that it erne dna • porn wb• had any views of
et aL dlr rat rm. paha impperted this
emcees emiebedy WU bat that if he gam money
le acme tisanes is Oak to It oat their beats they would 1
weed Or urrerisari sot 'rad going out fur the fish. But
he 1
Hi net lay ageriment. (Hear, hear.) A strong
antrestee Nal gay of the archbishop's was the fact that
Hr. Foie., the dotheo, gave money to the fi-h..nne„ of
Galway he the NMI purrs* lad the result was that they
went t• in, Wink 141. sad nude some 800 per cent. int,
eon en the weeny, (Hear.) RN he (Mr. Scrape) admitted

that Irishmen were idle and improvident, and for thin reason,
that they were ground down end oppressed by the system of
society under which they had grown up, and ghat was his
argument and answer to the most rev, prelate. In England,
France, and America, no man worked oetter than the Irish-
man. In the course of this very year the I ri,kmen employed
on the American railways sent home 200,0001. to their dis-
tressed friends. That was the result c.f industry and provi-
dence, and it spoke moreover of the rather moral qualities in
which they were not surpassed by say people under the
sun. (Hear, hear.) It had teem said that this was
a rash and hasty measure. But it was not by
any means a new one. So long ago as 1640, a
poor law was passed for Ireland taken almost rerbarins
from the act of Elisabeth, but it was not, unhappily,
brought into operation, in consequence of the rebellion which
then broke cut. If it had been carried into effect, Ito be-
lieved they would not now have to deal with the present
wretched condition of Ireland. He would conclude in the
words of Dr. Doyle, an enthusiastic and enlightened advo-
cate of a poor-law for Ireland, that they should not waste
their time in political conflicts, and in nicely adjusting the
balance of parties, " till pauperism, like an earthquake, ex-
ecuted on their heads the vengeance of heaven."
•• • •

Sir W. VERNER would not have addressed the house at
all, but for the slluoion which had been made by the hon.
baronet near him to the Archbishop of Dublin. The hon.
baronet advised the house not to be led away by the state-
ments of that most reverend prelate. He (Sir W. Verner)
on the other hand called on the house to pay every attention
to his statements, because they fairly and truly represented
the stets of Ireland, and the effect which this me:uttere would
leave. Allusion had been made to the repeal of the union.
If this bill passed, it would be the first decided step towards
that measure ; nor would the people of this country be en-
tirely guiltless of bringing it about, in consequence of their
joining 14 the cry against the Irish landinels, who were the
firmeat friends of British connexion. Thin meaaure would
make many repealer/ who never before thought on that
subject.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE did ant think that this bill
would be the end of their legislation on the subject of Irish
distress. He would not enter into the general question, but
be wished to state that be bad a strong objection to the
second clause of the bill. The argument which weighed
meet strongly with him was the want of machinery which
existed in Ireland to carry out the bill. Ile had seen it
stated in one of the blue-books that in (Dentin, in the
county of Donegal, two of the guardians received tickets of
relief. Hon. gentlemen who wished to apply the law of
England to Ireland, did not pay sufficient attention to the
different circumstances of the two countries. In Ireland
there was no middle class, but few resident gentry; no ma-
nufactures, and very little commerce. The contrary was
the state of things in England. Ile, therefore, thought
that it would be difficult to have a proper check to the dis-
plaid of the funds, and that the guardians would not be
trusted by the poor or the rate-payers themselves. The
great argument in favour of the measure, was that it would
compel the landlords to find employment for the poor, but
he thought that strain upon them might be too much.

Mr. ADDERLEY said that it would be essential to
exercise very great caution in carrying this measure into
effect.
Mr. VILLIERS expressed his cordial approbation of the
measure as ens of the highest humanity and wisdom. It
was an announcement to the people of Ireland that for the
future they should not be allowed to perish by starvation,
and in removing the turbulence of despair from that country
would be the means of introducing thtt capital there which
was n essential to the promotion of industry and national
prosperity. Those who expressed alarm at the introduction
of outdoor relief into Ireland should reflect that at the pre-
sent moment there partially prevailed throughout that
country a system of out-door relief of the most demoralising
and dangerous kind, in the universal mendica,at7 which
exacted relief front the terror of those whose aid was de-
manded. Ireland was peculiarly in that condition, from its
imperfect civilisation, when a syvte•m of public relief for the
distressed might most beneficially be introduced into it, as
formerly it had been introduced into England.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL adverted to the clause proposed
on a former night, by the noble member for Lynn, calling
upon the tenant to pay half the rates, and warned the house
against the admission of any such provision, which, in the
present condition of Ireland, could not be safely introduced.
The Irish landlords, he observed, had always been most
Arise-sighted with regard to their own interests. Thee had
been cursed by the granting of their own desires. It had
been their bane and the bane of the country, that neither
peoprietcr nor tenant had been actuated by a commercial
spirit. Their interests had been regarded as antagonist in-
terests and as it was in this light, seemingly, that this clause
had been proposed, he could not give it too strong an oppo-
sition._

Sir J. B. WALSH expressed the great regret he felt at
the absence, and the cause, of the hon. member for the
county Cork (Mr. O'Connell). His opinions would have
been of great value upon this subject. This was an attempt
to introduce the English poor-law into Ireland, made by
those who bad been such stmluous opponents of the law
that they had induced the noble lord at the bead of the go-
vernment to promise some alteration in it. (Lord J. Rue-
-0111.1.—1n its administration, not is its principle.] He (:Ve
J. Walsh), was glad to hear the noble lend make that
declaration. But the question now was whether the
Eoglish Goor-law was adapted to Irish '
.agencies?
For hit Owls Psil he ;B. Walsh) did not
think it Was. There was little doubt that a cla-
mour, fomented by the p:ess, had been raised in
favour of some such :deature, but their deliberate
judgment in the tunes was not to be influenced by such
clamour. Let them look at the question calmly. Were the
landlords really to blame for the distress at present existing?
He believed not, and he argued that the removal and nun
of the present landlords would confer no benefit upon the
country. If the bill did muss, however, his consoletion would
be that it would not effect all the mischief that was expected
from it.
Mr. S. CRAV7FORD did not believe with the hon. mem-
ber for Armagh, that this bill would make the landowners of
Ireland repeaters. It was not a very creditable argument,
for in his opinion it would be disgraceful to the landed pro-
prietary 'if they objected to pay to the relief of their own
poor. As a landed proprietor himself, he felt that a ilea
in the price of land ought to, and would follow, a proper
provision for the poor. He was of opinion that the limita-
tion as to the reception of out- door relief was too strict ;
but, looking at the measure as a whole, he anticipated that
the beet effects would be produced.
Mk G. GREY said be wished to say a few weeds before
tete nuseaure under discussion pared the third reading. The
einem of many gentlemen who might have been expected
preeent oa that occasion showed, be thought, that the
poor law question was not viewed by them as a party one,
bat solely in its bearing on the interests of Ireland. (Hear,
bear.) Had he desired on that occasion to enter into the
questmn of outdoor relief he should havedone little more than
to follow in the steps of the hon. member for Wolverhampton,
in whose sentiments on that subject he entirely concurred.
(Cheers.) Ile confessed that he was not entirely without ,
apprehension as to the difficulties which would probably •
attend this experiment. (Hear, hear.) An opinion had
been aapressed that this was not the time when such a mea-
sure should have been brought forward. His own opinion
period
when the system could be
was that that was the
most safely. and properly introduced. If the evils of Ireland
cud not arise from causes which were deeply seated le t.be
social system of the country ; and if they could indulge a
hope that in a few short months they would pass away,
it might have been wrong to pars a permanent bill.
But the failure of the potato-crop had revealed the
true condition of the country, and forced upon their atten-
tion the necessity of bringing about a change ; and in order
to guard against those calamities which had recently affected
Ireland, they were bound to provide, not merely for the tern
porary relief but also for the permanent improvement of the
people. It was necessary by such a measure se this to
endeavour to prevent the recurrence of that periodical dis-
tress which swept sway hundreds and thousands of families.
Honourable gentlemen who said that the bill would be ruin-
ous to Ireland on account of the expectations which it held
out, should recollect that though a pauper might not be able
to obtain out-door relief in Ireland, in a few hours
he could obtain a right to it by setting foot in England
(hear, bear); and on that subject he had received many
complaints from Liverpool, and from South Wales; 90,000
persons from Ireland had entered the former within a very
few months. Under such circumstances, it ems impossible
to refuse to make a more adequate provision than had
hitherto been made in Ireland for the reliefof the destitute poor
of the country He looked greatly, however, to the stimulus
which the bill would give to the owners and occupiers of
land to employ the people, and the expectation of the mea-
sure had already caused increased attention to he paid to
that subject. If, on the one hand, proprietors the down to
watch the course of events, and the labonri
were led to look to out-door relief as their 7tierrad"thate If
support, the consequences would be very sole / bet Im
trusted that a spirit had been aroused among all SLIM in
Ireland, which would avert so direful a calamity. The
hon. member for Wolverhampton had referred to an ahem
of certain landowners of Ireland who set forth the princi-
ples of action on which the salvation of Ireland mainly
depended. The Earl of Courtown was the president of this
body of owners. The address spoke in favour of searching
out means of employment, by enlarging the fisheries, culti-
vating waste tracts, and attending to the drainage ; and it
also contained these words:" • wise Providence blesses
• well-directed activity, while inaction ever produces evil
consequences." It was in the spirit of that language that
all death in Ireland should act; cad if they did
so, he felt confident that this measure, aided by
others tending to develop the resources of Ireland,
would prove extremely beneficial. The noble lord the mem-
ber for Lynn had adverted to the absence at present of that
political feeling and that religious asperity which had hitherto
been the characteristics of Ireland, and had expressed a hope
that all parties in that country would now combine for the
general good. In that hope he meet cordially joined. Aided,
as he hoped the government measures would be, by the co-
operation of all classes in Ireland, and by future delibe-
ration, he trusted that a better day would now dawn upon
Ireland, and that those calamities which were not known
then for the first time, but were almost periodically wit-
nessed, would in future lee averted. Let the measure be
carried Cut generally in the spirit in which the hon. member
for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) bad declared
his intention of acting, although he was opposed to some
portions of the bill, and he had no doubt that it would be
productive of great benefit to the country. (Cheers.)

. •
Lord O. BENTINCE said he bad been informed that in
his absence t►e hon. member fw Kerry (Mr. M. J. O'Connell)
bad amused his (Lord G. Bentlnck's) friends and himself of
attempting to take the house and the country by surprise by
those amendments which they were so nearly successful in
carrying. Now he gave the notice on the 11th of March; the
house went into committee for the fir.t time on the 16th, and
it was not till the 29th of March that the clauses were dis-
cussed. Eighteen days' notice was given ; consequently the
clauses must have been printed in the 'scree sad proceed-
ings of the house no less than twelve tints* i and they