The Express.
London, England, 1848-06-02 00:00:00

THE EN PRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 2, 1848.

Holland as a country that had formerly a large commercial
1 marine and navy without a navigation law. That war true ,•
but then them was ne analogy between the case of Holland
in those days, and the cue of England at the present time,
because there was not then the ISM competition which ex-
isted now, and moreover Holland was not burdened with a
debt of 800,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) Ile could assure the
house, that if the government prevailed en it to adopt free
trade measures to such an extent, this country would not be
able to compete with foreigners, and the effect would be to
displace a great part of the commercial marine of this coun-
try. (Hear, hear, ) But tome persona might may, what
consequence was that of. And a naval tinker of some stand.
ing said that the commercial marine was not neceseary to the
manning of the navy of England. If he ha I nut read the
evidence of Captain Stirling, he could not buve believed that
any naval officer would have given such art opinion. Ile
believed that the evidence of naval men would be given be-
fore the committee, which was eil,..ting..r.e.vl:Or:fh that erti. that I
subject, which completely 7
Tho h°Q., r.ed gallant member for Christchurch (Capt.
11".69 clad contradicted it already, and declared
at was impossible to maintain that tlai corn-
, P. :mild marine was not instrumental in manning the navy.
How, he would ask, was the navy to be manned,
in cue of emergency (Hear.) It was true Capt. Stirling
had a plan of his own, namely, to keep up such a large naval
establishment in time of peace as would render it indepen-
dent of the commercial marine. But would the hon. morn
her for hlontrnee sanction such a plan ? Would Cie country,
in a period of financial embarrassment, cowmen to keep up
ian mmense navnl armament in time of peace ?
Ile had to complain that it wax sought to connect the eysteni
of impressment with Bluish shipowners. They had nothing
to du with it. It was the naval authorities of the country
who were responsible for it. lie was opieued to the system,
but he did not see how they could do without it in time of
war. How would they fled men then to man the navy if
their commercial marine was so much reduced as he •.x.
penned it would be under this hill? The hon. member oppo-
site (Mr. Ricardo) accused them of entrapping apprentices
for the purpose of transferring them to the navy. Why, it
was the naval authorities that forced apprentioi's upon them
much to their disadvantage. (Hear, hear.) lie con-
t. uded that if this measure stisscil, the English
shipowner would be pieced in a disadvantageous
position with respect to the foreign. r. Meer, hew.)
The British shipowner would not be on an equality with
the fereigner. Ile could not, for instance, import timber to
build hie ships duty free. Ile had also many other runic,
tines imposed on him for national purpose.; but ho did not
want to shake off thou ri unctions If protection was conti-
nued to him. The commercial marine of fnreign countries
had greatly increased of late years. 'I he difference between
vessels entered inwards from the United State.,
Denmark, and Sweden between the years 1824 and 18111,
compared with thou • of (heat Britain, was in favour elthose
states by 3,T0.) weasels and 70,700 tons. Ile did not with
t exaggerate the nutter, hut as the capacity of foreign tui-
tions, and pirticularly of Franco and America, to compete
with them was growing greater and greater every
day, it was in his opinion the greatest act of folly, if nut
et insanity, that could be committed to give them the addi-
tional advantage which this usea•ure will.' afford them.
(Hear, hoar.) Then, as to authority, it was all in favour of
the navigation laws. Mr. liu,skixin and Lord William
whibt they were in favour of the reciprocity art. m, would
not consent to abandon the fundamental principle of the mu-
vigatien laws. If he went hack to the days of Sir Joshua
Child, and even Adam Smith, whom gentlemen opposite
were so fond of quoting, it would be (.nand that they were
fur maintaining those laws. Indeed, nothing could be etronger
than the opinion of Dr. Adam Smith in favour of them.
From beginning to end the anatomy of the navigation
laws was a nuue of ribaldry lend prejudice. If government
succeeded in carrying this measure they would add
hundreds and thousands to the may of paupers at
pre ant in our country. And all this would to done
only to secure an uncertain advantage; for, if the altera-
tion did increase commerce, it would he the commerce
of other countries. If such a bill was introduced, he
should watch it very closely, and cite it every opposition in
Lis power. Even it it thould pug that house, hr hoped there
would be sufficient patriotism to nject it in the House of
Lords. . .

T. A. MITCHELL said that when the hon. envie-
man the chairman at Lloyd's expressed a fveling in favour
of carrying cargoes by British ships in prefirence to carrying
them in those of foreign nation+, he was impressing an opi-
nion entirely oppoeed to that of ovary underwriter in that
house. Two of the underwriters of Lloyd's had been exit-
mined before the committee last year, and had given decided
evidence in favour of the superior desirability of carrying in
foreign bottoms. In a recent case at the Havana two cargoes
of sugar for St. Petersburg, one a British the other in a
foreign ship, had been insured ; sod whilst the foreign
ship's cargo had arrived safely the cargo of the Brinell ship
was so damaged as to require all the premium to he
refunded in order to make good the loss. At the
present time there was ahvolutely no security for
the merchants /against the captains of ship., and in
eases of vessels going shirt voyages the captains were fre-
quently men of very indifferent skill and conduct. This
wee, aceording to his view, entirely a question of free trade.
The elect the monopoly had had on our commerce was most
tearful. Look at our Canada trade: flour was brought from
New York at 2s. Id. per barrel, whilst from Canada the
barrel cost for freight upwards of es. His opinion was that
if these laws were repealed the carrying trade of the world
would he increased, and that consequently prices of freights
would he increased rather than diminished. Delay in chip-
menU would also be avoided. It hal often hap-
pened to him at Wee that he was quite un•
able to obtain British vessels to take his cargoes.
His conviction was, that if facilities were afforded for the
importation of goods, England would become the great
commercial depot of the world. Employment would he
given to our dock., to our ships, and to our laourer, in
every department; lodes d be could not attempt to state the
benefits which would result as a consequence of the repeal of
the existing inertia With regard to competition, not one
single argument had he beard to prove that British ships
would not be able to compete with the ships of every
other nation of the world. Ile believed, for his own part,
that no country in the world had such advantages in
building and outfitting ships as we had. No country poe...eesed
such advantages of obtaining teak, oak, lir, end the new
woods of our Australian colonies. As regarded outfits, the
cost of outfitting in the north of England was only about If.
per ton for canvas, 1/. per ton for cordage, 10.. per ton for
iron work, sod fri. per tin for copper work. There was no
other country that could compete with these prices. Then
as to sailors, we pail higher rates for the captains, and it
was most desirable that we should do so. But as to the
common seamen, though in the itaitle trade the Swedes paid
less than we aid, yet the cost of the American marine wan
quite as great. Then as to provisions, we had all the advan-
tage of provisioning our vessels cheap ; and with all these ad-
vantages surely it would nut be contended again that foreign
competition was likely to injure us. We were competing
at the present time with foreign countries under all the dis-
advantages of the ap,irenticeship and other systems ; these
would be entirely or in rein repealed, and if they were,
could there be any doubt of our being able to compete with
the greateat success ? He had considered the question
with the greatest attention, and lie was fully assured that we
should he great gainers by the repeal of these laws.
The Marquis of ()HANBY said that the hon. member
after denouncing our short-voyege captains as of interior
character to the East India and China captains, and as con-
sequently lowering the position and injuring the interests of
our eanying trade, proposed, most illogically, to remedy the
matter by destroying our long-voyage traffic altogether, and
to restrict the business of our ships to the coasting and fish-
ing trade. lie wholly denied that our ships could compete,
under the contemplated change, with the foreign carrier.
The difference in the lost of our ships, and our higher rates
of wages, as evidenced by Mr. George Frederick Young and
other eminent authorities, wholly precluded the possibility of
our successful competition, unless protected by statutory re-
gulations. There was no necessity for altering the navigation
laws. There had been no general outcry for any such inea-
sure as the present. On the contrary there had been mani-
fested a strong feeling that the navigation laws ought no- to
be tampered with. The only cry that had been raised was that
which had proceeded from foreign nations. And were foreign
nations to be listened to on such a question as that under
consideration o Ile entreated the government to pause be-
fore the final step was taken. In the words of the I
preamble of the act of Charles 11. he entreated '
ministers not to repeal an act, the object of which was
to increase the shipping and 'Timm of navigation of the
country, on which, under the protection of Orel, the wealth,
the strength, and the safety of the empire were so much de-
pendent. (Cheers )
Mr. PI. GIBSON said that he must venture to tell the
noble marquis who had just sit down th..t if it had been
unwise to embark in the policy of free-trade meneurex, it
would be still more unwire, to stand still, and after having
exposed the agricultural and colonial interests to the unre-
stricted competition of foreign producera, to refuse to adopt
the same course with respect to the navigation laws. (Cries
of " Oh.") It was necessary to call upon parliament to go
forward and not to allow itself to be stopped by the impor-
tunities urged on behalf of a mistaken self-interest.
("Oh," and hear.) Dist the opponenteof the pmposed change
mean to say that the weaker the British ships were the
stronger was the necessity for driving the foreign ships
away; or that if a British ship was no better calculated for
navigating the seas than the Chinese junk she ought to be
employed in preference to the finest vessels in the world ?
What was it that the hon. member for Poole had urged in
defence of the navigation laws ? Nothing else than the im-
possibility of building ships in England as cheaply as they
could be constructed in other parts of the world. And
what was the answer which he found recorded in the blue.
hook on the navigation laws by a gentleman who was Lloyd's
surveyor at Sunderland ?
Mr. ROBINSON.—The surveyor of registers.
Mr. M. 0113 SON.—The surveyor of registers, as the bon.
member had stated. That gentleman, in his evidence before
the committee, minted that a ship might be built at Sunder.
land of oak imported from Daritzic cheaper than she could
bo built at Dantzic. Ile would Rot dwell on the question
of competition, which was no more an essential element of
the discussion than the price of corn was to the debate on
the repeal of the corn laws. There was one satisfaction which
he bad in considering the present question, and that was,
that the Navigation Aft could not stand as it was. But then
he might be told that in making the necessary changes in
the navigation laws they ought to be fateful not to
surrender those great principles by which were guaranteed
the superiority for which the mercantile navy of England
Ind always been renowned. Now, what was the guarantee
for the superiority of England's commercial navy ? It was
based on the act of 8 and It Victoria, which only applies to
the import+ into the kingdom. Experts might be sent in
ship. of any nation, and ships of all nations might also im-
port goods, provided those goods were not consumed in Eng-
land, but merely remained here in infante. If goods co
imported in foreign bottoms were to be exported, then they
were outside the navigation laws. But if they were for
home consumption, then those goods must be imported in

the way which was laid down by the prohibition lows.
N w, he would say boldly, that let a ship come
from whatsoever place she might, laden with
produce, he would not drive that ship away. Was
England to he afraid of receiving imports from foreign
countries Were they to fear PO increase in her revenue ?
Ifnot, why seclude the produce of foreign countries ? Was
notnthat exclusion doing a serious injury to the manufac-
turing Interests, and could much a course of policy be
justified ? Ho had stated that the navigation laws
too-ro confined to the policy of prohibition; but they were
not exclusively calculated for the protection of the British
shipowners. There wee another mid a distinct feature to be
obeerved in the operation of those laws. The noble
marquis had quoted Mr. Iluskisoon, and in donate
so had suppli d an important omission which had
been made by the hon. member for Stamtairl on a
Omission lens, Mr. 11"*I''''" Lc:o 7.': ration that; whilst fo-
re, formereeceveetrn renen quoting the same auth aity. The
countries might
le
permitted to carry for themselves,
they wcro not, in that abdomen's opinion, to be permitted to
carry for others. Now, ho must be permitted to Bey,
that a more antiquated or obsolete maxi.:: o;;Z:
cited in defence ot a had route. Per the only meaning that
could be attached to it was, that in so far as the navigation
laws were concerned one country was to carry g.nels for all
other countries ; and the question was, which country ? Wan
America to be the carrying country fur tho rest of the world ?
It would seem as if the object ot the British parliament was
to nurse navies fur every country in the world. But the
point to which he wished to call the attention of the hums°,
was the real practical character of the government proposals.
Toe object was to repeal at the clime time the English and
American navigation laws. Would the hope ri ject that
proposal ? If they did, what would they lie calling down
upon thernselvm in another direction? The fulfilment of
all the threats which they had been receiving from other
countries, from Prussia, from the Hamm Towns- in fact
front ev:ry town in the (iceman confederation. Could they,
even considering the British chipping, hesitate between these
alternatives ? On the one hand they would have free acmes
to the United States from every quarter of the globe, and in
addition they would acquire a considerable portion of the
trade of the Baltic. The value of the imports into the
United States was 75,000,000 dollars, of which 36,000,004.)
came from the British dominions, and 39,000,000 from all
other parts of the world. Under the operation of the navi-
gation lows they enjoyed but one half of the American jet-
port trade, but if they repealed Oleos laws, there would be
every prospect of thi it enjoying the whole. (Ironical cheers
Iron the ommsition.) They would certainly hare the
greatest share of the whole, while they now only enjoyed
one-half. (dear, hear.) The honourable member for
Bridport had milled the attention of the house to the
injurious eifeett of the combined influence of the
English and American laws on English shipping, and hail
shown that under those laws English shippino must continee
to be worst OE The evidence of the collector of the eon of
Lonilou was strong on this point. That officer said that the
effect of confining the import of the produce of Asia, Africa,
and America to British ships, or to vessels belonging to the
countries from which the produce came, had been to confine
einem the whole of the carrying trade between America
and England to American ships. All the liners were Amen
eon, and it was certainly a remarkable fact that hardly ono
of those vessels hailed from an English port. It was, how-
ever, easily accounted for by the operation of the navigation
laws of the two countries, because the English liner would
be obliged to confine himself to the produce of this counter ,
whereat the American could take hack the produce of
all Eurcpe. ( Hear, hear.) If then they rejected the pro-
pot of the government, they would be inflicting one of
the greatest blows on our shipping that could be inflicted,
and depriving them of an advantsge which was almost
within their reach. (blear.) With reeled to the colonial
Interests, which hail been alluded to ne being pressed down
by the principles of free trade, he G. rtainly felt bound, as
.ate who had advocated those principles, and thus exposed
the colonies to the unrestricted competition of the world, to
give them that freedom of transmission of their produce to
this country which wan consistent with the full development
of those principlio. How could gentlemen opposite resist
the justice of such an appeal as that which was made on
behalf of the colonists, that they might be permitted to
transmit their produce at the cheviot rate to the home
noirlset ? lion. gentlemen talked of the risk of losing our
col .nies. Were the colonies likely to become discontente,l if
we removed the restrictions under whi. h they laboured ?
Were they likely to make it a grievance that we permitted
them to transmit their produce to the home market at the
cheapest possible rate? (Hear, hear ) Why not put the
British importing merchant on as gond a footing as the
fen ion importing merchant? (Hear, hear.) Under the
present law, the merchant exporting front Canada to this
country, a as confined to one ship, while the United States
merchant had his choice of two, English arid American. Ile
trusted that h m. gentlemen opposite, who on all occasions
etbibiteti to touch gym, athy for our colonists, would pot
thin on a touting with the foreigner, by giving them
the advantage arising from n competition for their
freights. lie called upon them in justice to these
colonies to free them from such oboes restricione, and to
give them liberty to chip their g nabs in any bottoms they
might think lit—in fact, a share in the privileges which had
been accorded to the tweet country. With regard to the
manufacturing interest with which the town he had the
honour to represent was intimately connected, he should
best explain their feelings by ending attention to a petition
which he lied on that evening presented front the Manchester
Chamber of Commerce. (The right hon. gentleman reaelan
extract from the petition in questior, from which it
appeared that the petitioners, having themselves received
the benefits of commercial freedom, we re anxious to have them
ratended to our colonists by the abolition of the navigation
laws.) It was conceded on all hands that the novioation
laws were not to remain in their present state. The worthy
alderman opposite (Mr. Alderman Thompsen) was prepared
to concede an important change. and thus t infringe on
throe fundamental principles wl.ich the right hon. member
for Stamford was so unwilling to surrender. He (Mr. Gib-
son) very much doubted whether any of the charges offered
could be r Gebel without touching a fundamental principle.
One gnat fundamental principle of the navigation leas was,
that the produce of Asia, Africa, and America should be al.
together inadmissible from the continent of Europe. The
worthy alderman was willing to relax on that point, while
the right hon. member for Stamford refused to touch a fund-
amental principle. If there were such differences amongst the
supporters of the navigat ion limo how could they. reconcile it to
themselves to orison. even the going into committee ? Why,
the changes which they themselves advocated could not be
effected without first going into committee. (Hear, hear.)
'there was one other point to which he must make some
allusion. He had been charged by the noble lord the mem-
ber for King'. Lynn with having waisted in framino returns
which were calculated to mislead the public on the subject ef
the navigation laws. Ile must say that a more unfounded
chimer, or unfounded insinuation, had never been made
against any man. He was prepared to assert, and to prove,
that the returns in questinn were strictly correct.
Lord 0. itENTINCK—I have not made such a
charge yet.
Mr. M. GIBSON had read the charge in the noble
Inure soeech. The charge was that returns had been got
up for the purpose of deceiving the committee, and inducing
them to ill aw erroneous inferences. Ile repeated that a
more unfounded statement had never been made ; the
figures in those returns were cornet in all their parts. The
only object for which them, returns had been compiled was
that of comparing the increase in those trades which were
exposed to competition with the increase in those which
were protected. That was the object, and the returns dis-
tinctly showed that in those trades which were protected the
increase was not so great as in those trades which were ex-
to competition. The heading of the returns had also
been objected to, but that had been adopted from Mr.
Young, who stated that chipping had declined in conse-
quence of protection being withdrawn by reciprocity
treaties, and that the repeal of the navigation
laws would complete their ruin. The tables proved
that instead of the reciprocity treaties having pro-
duced any such evil effects, the very trades on
which they operated hail increased in a much greater
ratio than the trades which remained a close monopoly.
(Hear, hear.) The returns, therefore, which had been com-
plained of were perfectly to the point, and gave a complete
answer to the statement of the witnesses. He could not con-
ceive the possibility of any human being being misled by
them who had any knowledge of the subject, or who was
not entirely ignorant of the whole bearing of the navigation
haste question. lie wanted to ask another question of the
house Were they prepared to assert, that if they rejected
the proposal of the government our existing relations with
foreign countries would allow us to return to the navigation
laws ? (Hear, hear.) Ile spoke of the indirect foreign trade.
How could they hope, with the concessions they had already
made, the departures that had already taken place from the '
principle of the Navigation Act, and with the existing
treaties of reciprocity which contained the favoured-nation-
clause, to maintain the navigation laws, or any great portion
of them? You have (said the hon. gentleman) already per-
mitted foreign countries to use ports for shipping Foods to
this country, which porta are not in therm countries—you
have permitted Austria to use the port of Galatz ; you have
permitted Hanover to use Memel, and the ports at the mouth
of the Meuse; you have remitted the duchies of Olden-
hurgh and Mecklenburg, and the states of the Zollverein, to
depart from the'principle you have laid down in your navi-
gation laws, of making every country confine itself to carry-
ing its own produce front its own ports. Then what will
those countries which have in the treaties by which we are
hound to them the most 'favoured-nation-clime say?
What does Holland say now? Holland says you allow
Hanover to carry her produce to England from Memel. Is
Memel in Ilanover ? we always suppmed it to be in Prussia,
If you allow Hanover to come to the Meuse, and carry her
produce from Holland to England, you must allow Holland
to carry from Memel to England, and give to Holland, as
you are bound to do by the favoured-nation-clause, the
same advantages you give to other nations. (Hear.) What
then becomes of your principle that you will not allow one
country to carry for another to this ? If you allow Holland
to become the carriers from the countnes of the north of
Europe, you break down the very ground on which your
navigation laws were established—viz., fear of the Dutch.
(lieu.) And if you concede the privilege to Holland how
can you refuse it to Sweden, Denmark, and Norway? Then
what will Prussia say when she sees that you allow those
countries to go to Memel and carry Prussian produce to
England ? Will not she demand that her ships shall go to
those countries and carry her produce to England ?
With this difficulty staring us in the face l do not
wonder at the shrewdness of the hon. member
for Westmoreland, for he knows well that the conse-
quence of the concessions already made to foreign
powers is that that part of the Navigation Act which relates
to the admissibility of African, Asiatic, and American pro-
duce is gone—the foundations of it are sapped, and do what
you will, with your existing relations and your treaties
with foreign countries, you are not in a condition to maintain
it. I doubt whether, if the United States were to call upon
you to carry out your treaty with them, whether
_you could
prevent American prOduec being brought through Europe to

this country—(hear, hear); for what saes your Arne..,
treaty ? It says that you shall not impose any prohibition
on American produce which you do not impose on the pro-
duce of other countries ; and if you allow European pro-
duce, the poroduco of one country, to be hroueht through
the ports of soother Europese country to England, by what
right can you deny the claim of America to admit her pro-
duce in the same way ? In fact I believe it is
only the idea that you are about immediately to
deal with the Navigation Act yourselves that his
prevented foreign countries pressing on you for the
performance of the stipulations of the treaties into which you
have entered with them. With regard to the Dutch treaty,
I believe I am right in saying that the Dutch have already—
some years ago—made their claim to this carrying trade
which your Navigation Act wan framed specially to take
from them, and that the justice of that claim was not de-
nied, and, whether you repeal the navigation laws or not,
you must shortly :I.:: z...azossione ;Ist arei other eonti-
nentil countries to which you are hOur.'... by the most fa-
voured-natio:l tithe. (Hier.) I have stated these argu-
ments lo the hope that they may induce the house not to
wee the course of saying that they will not stir a step in
the consideration of this navigation law. It would be mon
sinus, when we consider how parliament has eine-
Vencd the principle of free trade, that we should
now be deterred from takMg this initiatory step on
the ground that it invades the principle of protection,
while there are many who oppose the present motion who
are prepared to suggest alteration' in the law. I may be
accused of omitting the general argnment ae to the bearing
of this question on our national defences—(hear, hear)—and
I will therefore toy a word or two on that point. The hon.
gentleman opposite talks as if every men in the British navy
MU a sailor, whereas, after all, it is only a small part of the
British navy that are seamen. Sir J. Sterling, in his evi-
dence before the committee of the Heuer of Common., tells
us that nut more than one-fourth of the navy on the average
are seamen, and the proportion of the mercantile marine is
so small that it would be possible, air J. Sterling think'', so
to c institute the navy as to render it entirely indepen-
deet of the merchant service. If you reduce the officers
to the lowest possible limit, and put down all use-
less offices, it might I think be possible to increase the
number of firemen in the navy without adding to the
expense. And this evidently is what Sir J. Sterling (who is
• man of expere nee in the profession, and whose opinion is
entitled to be taken as authority) —this is evidently what he
no.ans, though he elms nut assert it in words. Ile rays,
" You have no mode of procuring men from the mercantile
marine except by impresoneet ; they will not volunteer."
Hon. gentlemen opposite say the mercantile =rise must be
protected as a means of support to our naval power, and, at
the same time, they object to the system of impressment ;
but riot one of them has yet told us how the transfer of the
men from the one service to the other, when wanted, is to
be efl, cted. ( hear.) I believe the only mode by which you
can effect it is by force. (Hear, hear.) They do not
volunteer now freely in time of peace, and I doubt whe-
ther they would do so at all were war appreh,
Sir J. Stirling told the committee before which
he was examined that parliament was trusting to
a broken:reed in the mercantile marine as a means of supply
ing the navy, t xcept by impressment, and be pressed on
them the importance of melting the naval power indepen-
dent altogether of the merchant service ; and he added that
he believed it might be so made even in the event of a war.
His opinion was that the best means of promoting the inte-
rests of both services, and of the country, wax to let each
stand upon its own reairces. (Hear.) Gentlemen opposite
plume themselves upon being theshipowners' and the sailors'
triends. Cin anything be more unjust or tyrannical to the
shipowner than to invite him to incur heavy expenses in
ships and in procuring able seamen at high wage, on the
faith of maniaining protection, while you do nothing to gua-
rantee him a larger amount of profit than can be obtained in
any other trade; fur the profits in all trades veil: be the
same, protect them as you may? /Hear, hear.) On
the one hand you take credit for protecting the ship-
owners, while no the other you claim credit for having in-
rented a plan for manning the navy entirely at the ezperee
of this unfortunate interest. (Hear, hear.) And without
giviag them greater profits than other traders can obtain
you claim the right to I.IIIIICC down upon them at any mo-
ment, to take sway their men. knock up their trade, and
perhaps bring them to ruin. (Hear, hear.) If it be possible
' for any man to conceive one plan which is more tyrannical
than any other in reference to British sailors, or an arrange-
ment more destructive to British shipping, it is that plan
which, without bent fiting the shipowner or the men he
employs, exposes him at some uncertain moment to all the tee
inflictions. (Hear, hear.) I have referred to the ',pinion of
Sir .1. Stirling another authority whom we often hear
quoted in this house, Mr. M'Culloch, says that he believes
it would cost less if the navy were made altogether in-
dependent of the merchant service, and he adds he
believes there arc many naval men who consider
that the time is coming when you must, for your own
nab ty, free the navy from the obligation to press men out of
the merchant melee; and that, under proper arrangements,
this might be done with economy to the state. I Inhere
there are many unnecessary expenses attached to the naval
deportment which ought to be put down. It is ale, my
opinion that the worst treated and worst dealt with cla eof
the Queen's subjects are the seamen. (Hear.) What do
you rosily do fur them ? You profess to protect them ; but
you have not prevented the prevalence of great distress from
time to time among both sailors and ship-owners. (Hear.)
Though the country professes to have at heart the interest of
the sailor, and claims the right to take him from the service
in which he obtains the highest amount of wages at any
moment, what have you ever done for his advantage ?
Should the sailor fall into poverty and want in cense-
quence of the uncertain state of employment, what have you
dune fax him more than for other paupers ? If you take
the practical operations of the statutes you have
passed---as the Merchant Seamen's Fund—are they worth a fig
to him ? If employment fail, and he fall into distress, tier-
haps, if he is lucky, he may get a pauper allowance. (Hear,
hear.) This is all you have done fee him, and yet you claim
the right to call yourselves, the sailor's friends and the ship-
owner's:friends, while you expose them to the evik I have
alluded to. I will nut say a word in disparagement of the
shipowners, or of the masters or mates, in the course they
have taken on this question—l can forgive men for being
uneasy when they think it possible that their pecuniary in-
terests may be affected—(hear, hear)—hut I will not consent
to allow in parliament the voice of justice, reason, and good
policy, to be drowned by the clamour of any class what-
ever. (Cheers, and " oh.") We must discuss this ques-
tion with a view to the general interests of the British
empire, anu must not be deterred from doing what is right
by the fears and apprehensions of any party. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord asked where was the clamour and where
the petition in) favour of the proposed change. I should
muc .. regret if it was to be understoed that parliament was
never to carry any measure except forced to it by clamour.
(Opposition cheers, and Ministerial counter cheers.) It must
be is subject of great regret to every friend of his country to
think that we have a parliament—if it be as the noble lord
says—which it is in vain to anpeal to unless the appeal be
backed by clamour and threats. (Hear.) But this at least
is a subject in which we are not backed by clamour. Here
we want reason and dispassionate consideration, not
clamour. (Ilear,hear.) And when gentlemen lay such
stress on power, glory, and such things, 1 must
tell them that they are not acting in accordance with the
spirit of the times. (" lieu-, hear," and laughter.) The
spirit of the times is commerce—(hear, hear)—the spirit of
the times is industry—(hear, hear)—it is internal improve-
inent—( hear, hear)—it is mechanical in vention—( hear, hear)
—it is, it you will, political economy. (Opposition cheers,
met by counter cheers from the ministerial benches.) It is
not war—(hear, hear)—it is not clamour—(hear, hear)—it
is peaceful relations, peaceful preen- es, and amicable feeling
among all the nation, of the earth. (Cheerine.) If you
wish to act in conformity with the spirit of the times, you
must abolish those antiquated notions by which you have
been so long influenced. Let the ships of all the nations
of the world bring the produce of the world from every
place—(hear,h.ar)—exclude none. (Hear, hear.) Do
this, and you will carry cut a policy beneficial to your in.
dustry, beneficial to your manufactures, beneficial to your
shipping interest, and to all classes of your fellow country.
men ; do this, and you will add strength to your peaceful
relations with foreign powers, and, by setting the example
of a vast, generous, and enlightened commercial policy,
you will be raising the character of England amongst the
nations of the world. (Cheers.)

Mr. HENLEY said that if he could gather any thing from
the speech of the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, it
was that the general interests of the country ought to be
made subservient to a sordid spirit of gain—) hear, hear)—
that, in fact, for the gain of half a farthing additional every
relation of honour, of independence, and of national security,
should give way. (Hear, hear.) It was easy to clothe a
bad sentiment in good language, and to talk of general ad-
vantage, when the advantage of a particular class only was
intended. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman spoke of
the enervating influence of the navigation laws depressing
the raw material ; by which he (Mr. Henley) supposed
the right hon. gentleman meant lowering the price. (Hear,
beer.) if the right hon. gentleman had not withdrawn
from the government, he would not have attempted what
no minister ever yet attempted to do—to separate the com-
mercial marine from the naval force of the country. Oar
mercantile marine had advanced almost progressively in
an extraordinary degree, and had supplied us with seamen
whenever they wero wanted. He could not understand,
therefore, why the right hon. gentleman looked upon them
as injurious in their effect upon our navy. He complained,
too, of there being a great clamour raised in favour of sea-
men. Now, of all the interests in the country, he be
tiered there was none, considering its extent and conse-
quences, that was now, or had at any time been so
weakly represented as the shipping interest, which, in some
sense, was part of the commercial interest. He was not dis-
posed to rest this question upon the ground of competition ;
for, after all, it was a matter of opinion. We had vast pos-
sessions in every part of the world, and he considered it ne-
cessary not only that we should be on an equal footing with
the rest of the world, but that we should have a naval
supremacy. (Hear, hear.) Once log e that supremacy, and
the strength of the British empire was gone. The great mass
of our empire was composed of scattered parts ; and if we
were to have them knit together by the ocean, we mast
maintain the supremacy of the ocean. (Hear, hear.) Com-
petition would not do all that was required. The right hon.
gentleman said we must become one nation by means
of free trade. If so, why did he not begin with
his own constituents, and remove protection from Manchu-
ter cottons ? Ile reminded the house, that if they
repealed the navigation laws they would not be able to
retrace their steps, and be conceived that not merely the
interests, but the honour, the greatness, and the independ-
ence of this country could only be secured by the main-
tenance of her naval supremacy. (Hear, hear.)
On the motion of Lord INOESTRZ, the debate was then
adjourned until to-morrow (this day.)
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
Lord MORPETII proposed to proceed with the further
consideration of the report on tho Public Health Bill, but

The Earl of LINCOLN objected not only on es accoun
alp
tor the latene of the hour (half-past twelve o'clock), but
on the ground that the ST ended hiU had only reached the
bands of members that day ;so that it imp naihie
enter upon the discussion of the amendmetds.
L .rd MORPETH tionsented to postpone the further pro•
erecting with the bill until Monday next.
METROPOLIS POLICE BILL
' Sir C. LEWIS moved the second rea,!i•of of fhii,
which provides for a re-aasemment of the par...hes in LoedTZ
for the purposes of the police rate.
After a few words from Mr. Iludeon, S,r O, Grey,
Henley, the Chancellor of the Exehetio r, and
PolJolliffe
k(whorce),o objected to the conatitut:on of the Metrop,iitg
ice
Mr. HUDSON moved that the delta.e should
mution, an ; hut on an appeal frem Sir G.. Grey .....h4re';l74;
d thlbiliiwvait*.:irelavtlAi
Slr r
..nc s move/ Mt leave to bring it, a hill to stared
brae laws relating to highways in England and H.
described it as supplementary to an act I and in the hat
seaaiou.

In answer to a question from Sir W. Jotter's..
Sir O. GREY said the provisions of th.. i,dt did %aim
tend to turnpike trusts, but might ho made speak's%
them by a F übsequent act. It was not the intention of the
government to bring in any general mea<ur, thi, swim*
luting to turnpike trusta.
Col. SIBTtiORP complained of the hardship wid*
r..ilways bad inflicted on those intertatod turnpike hit&
whose capital, to the extent of thirteen mdlions, had beiii
demi op.
Mr. FRF.WEN recommended government to take Ike
management of highways in Irilatol as the bids of theie
legislation.
Leave was then given to bring in the hill.
The house adjourned at a quarter past on.,

ELECTION COMNIITTEE —YEsTERDAY.
Durst, N.—The scrutiny was pr,loccdtal with, at
evidence was given to the effect that several v dere who had
polled for Mr. Reynolds were Ineligible fr.in not tingle
paid the borough rate.