The Express.
London, England, 1862-07-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

' HOUSE OF COMMONS.—WRDNIMDAY, mix 30.
(Continued from yesterday's Express.)
MERSEY, IRWELL, &0., PROTECTION BILL.
After some further disinuaion the house divided open
the pigsties " that the bill do pas." The numbers were :
Ayes
Nose 35-48
The bill accordingly
The Earlass ofe& Shrew= Estate Bill was reads third
and_p
VE.NTILATION OF GOVERNMENT SCHOOL&
Mr. JONES asked the Vice-President of the Council of
Education whether any and what 'steps bad been taken to
remedy the defective state of the ventilation M the govern-
ment schools, adverted to in the late report of the sanitary
sommissicieers, and whether the attention of the right bon.
gentlemen bad been called to the system of Mr. Cooke, the
engineer, of Springlardens, which bad been applied to
several public buildings, and iuncingst others the Colonnade
Institution, Clare-market. '
Mr. LOWE said the Committee of Council took the
greatest pains with the veotilatMu of the schools they as-
sisted in building, and he bad no reason to believe that the
ventilation of government schools was at all in a defective
state. He was not aware of the nature of Mr. Cooke's
process which bad been applied to the Colonnade Institu-
tion in Clare-market, but the government were of course
always ready to consider any improvements that were
brought under their notice.
UNION RELIEF AID BILL.
Upon the order of the day for the consideration of the
amendments to thia
Colonel W. PATTEN presented a petition from the
board of guardians of Chorley, stating that they had seen
the bill as amended, and that they did not thine it would
give them the relief they required. They prayed to have
the power of borrowing money upon the rates for the relief
of the poor during the present distress.
Mr. PULLER moved its recommittal for the purpose of
moving clauses to enable guardians of unions to borrow
money on the security of the rates.
Mr. HIBBERT did not think the bill in He present shape
would give that instant relief which was sought ; it would
do away with the great motive for economy ; it would
destroy the independence of the people, and would seri-
scaly affect the occupiers who would be called upon to pay
the rates.
Mr. VILLIERS said the questions raised by the two hon.
gentlemen were the same as these which had been fully
considered by the house the other night. If they were to
encumber a parish with a lead of debt, numbers of persons
would at once leave that perish, and make the burden
much greater on those who remained. By the provisions of
the bill, if any parish exceeded more than one shilling and
threepence in the pound it had a ready means of getting that
mess again. There were 19 unions in Lancashire, including
Manchester, but 7 of the 19 were not likely to feel the dis-
tress. The 12 remaining unions contained 136,600 eau-
panto over MI years of age, and 91,130 under 20 years of
age—making a total of 227,730 persona actively engaged in
she cottoo trade; while the wives and infants depending on
them might be taken as 138,000 more. Putting an extreme
ewe—namely, that those operatives would all require assist-
anc•—at the present rate of relief the cost would be 864,3011.
a year. There were ample means in that county to support
the poor in the Tony worst case ; all that was neceseary was
to duitsibote the charges over a large area. He did not ex-
pect the distress would extend beyond next October, when
• !supply of cotton would probably reach this country from

General LINDSA Y thought the statement of the right
bon. gentleman ought not to go forth as one which the
house would be glad to see adopted in its literal and practi-
sed sense. He complained of what the operation of the hill
would be in the town which he represented (Wigan). That
town would have to pay its proportion of the union rating
for Preston and Blackburn, and yet would get no credit for
key* its own poor off the rates.
Mr. CRAWFORD said that, according to react ac-
counts, there was 60,000 more bales of cotton on their way
from the East to supply the wants of Europe than there
were at the err lime me year.
Colonel W. PATTEN said that since he last addrered the
house on this question he had been in communicatios with
his constituents, and he had that morning received from
them the expression of a wish that they should be allowed
to relieve themselves by way of loan rather than by the
means proposed by the measure of the government.
Mr. COBDEN said that unless the house understood
more fully than they did at present the question before
them they could not dispose of it fur a fortnight at least.
He had Leen astounded at the calculations made and put
before the hereby his right hoe. friend the President of
the Poor-law Board, from whose opinion' he was obliged to
differ. The right boo. gentleman bad stated that there
were 313,000 employed in the cotton trade, and that they
would he throws out of work. Nothing would induce him
to speak of the right honourable gentlemen as
being hard-hearted or inhuman. But his fallacy con-
sisted in this, that that large quantity of persons
would Le thrown out of employment and that the
rest of the population of Lancashire would be in their
normal condition. But the prosperity of the whole people
depended on the prosperity of the cotton industry—in fact
the employment of the whole population was like the works
of a clock, and if the main-spring was broken the whole
works would be stopped. The people of Lancashire would
be distressed if the cotton trade was stopped. The argu-
ments of his right hon. friend were so fallacious that he
should Dot have thought of referring to them if be had not
seen such a large amount of ignorance existing in high
quarters. The way to view the question was that every
part of Lancashire was engaged in the cotton trade.
Some honourable gentlemen talked of separatiog the
manufacturing parts of Lancashire from the agricultural,
but those parts which were not engaged in the cotton trade
were very mull indeed. (Hear, hear.) If there were •
rate in aid over soy part, it would soon raise the rates to the
same amount es in the more distressed parte of the country.
The rateability of the distressed unions was at present
3,165,000/., but the whole rateability of Lancashire was
1,449,001 k. Then it was assumed that after deducting the
distresied unions all the rest of the county was agricultural
But it was nothing of the kind. The returns before the
house did not, it was true, include Liverpool, Warrington,
Todmorden, and other places; but he might assert that
there was not 1,000,000!. of rateable property in
Lancashire which was purely agricultural. If they
pared this bill as it stood, they would dis-
tress and impoverish the other towns in the county.
The town which he represented had asked the house for the
power to raise money to maintain their own poor,
bat the house and the government had obstinately
refused to grant that power. He could not see
why it should be refused. (Hear, bear.) He had
that morning received a telegram stating that the
bill as it stood would be only • mockery, and entirely
useless to them. (Haar, bear.) It was really monstrous
that they should push this bill so rapidly through the house
in the last few days of the session, as that the people hail.
no time to make known their opinions on the subject except
by the telegraph. (Hear, hear.) Assuming that some
some portion of the people must have extraneous succour,
be would ask whether it would not be better that they
should allow the guardians to borrow money. The
very fact that some parishes had small poor ores
in prosperous times was evidence of their being elle to
provide for their poor by the aid of • lone. What was
wished at Rochdale was the wish of all Lancashire. (Hear,
hear.) There might, it is true, be some crotchety *uxli-
vidnals who were opposed to the principle, but the boards
of (guardians generally and the newspaper prase were &deo-
rang tbegrantiog of thin power of borrowing money on the
rates. (Hear, hear.) He had received • letter from the
Town Clerk of Stockport stating that full powers of bor-
rowing money ought to be given by the MIL Then why
should the house keep the responsibility on themselves and
refuse to give this power which the people themselves asked
for. He was quite prepared, r the flamer' all Lancashire
—he would not speak for Derbyshire or Cheshire—to give
up the rate in aid altogether unless the bill contained borrow-
ing powers. If the house did not sanction an option—
if that should be found imprectioehle—then he would be
prepared to peas a bill gristle* borrowing powers and so
reject the rate in aid. (Hear, hear.) Bat the bill ought to
contain both powers, and he thanked the hon. member for
Hertfordshire for bringing the question forward so that the
opinion of the house might be taken on it at once. (Hear.)
Mr. J. B. SMITH was opposed to power being gives
to the gaudier to borrow money for a short period, se
the repayment would be atteedel with embarrassment.
Mr. NEWDEOATE was in favour of the power of
raising mooey by leen.
Mr. HENLEY supported the plan of the government, and
contended that it was better to stand on the old principle,
and suit it as far as possible to the necessities of the ease.
If in three months the scheme did not answer, then it
would be for the government to call parliament together to
devise • mere efficient measure.
Mr. 0. LEON expressed himself in favour of the principle
of • loom.
Lord PALMRBSTON rid be hoped the house would
come toe dickies on the question before them that evening.
That question was, udder the form of moving • recommittal
of the bill, whether the house would adhere to the principle
of a rate in aid, or whether it would. recommit the bill for
the purpose of ietrodueieg the principle of borrowing on the
security of the rates. It was no doubt plausible to propose
that such a power shouldbe granted, and it was the easiest
mode of getting money, but it would be shifting the burden
of present difficulties to • future time, and it would be intro-
dmang an entirely new principle into the administration of the
poor-law of this country. He would remind the house that
no argu meek that bola heard would not apply to any other
pert of the reeky in distress as well as to isocashire at
the present pried. (Hear.) Is far, the principle of borrow-
ing would apply to every parish In the country where the
rates ware higher sow thaa I. Lancashire. There were
many parishes *ow paying higher rates than any parish in
that rusty. (Haar, hear.) No principle could be worse, and
it was opposed to political and dotnertic economy thus to
borrow snowy to meet current expenses. Well, was it em
eessery to do so? If it mild be shown that there was no
other way of meeting the em it it might be permitted:
but it had ben demoestrated that -the smith of Lancashire
and Cheshire was able to meet any demands which might.
to throws moos it. He believed that the rateability of
Lemonlike was as much as 10 or 11 millions, and it was idle
to suppose that ft would sot berate to contribute fully to
the drier. There was • Isms class of mannfeeturers and
espilskide 'rho tied mode large fortune*. and some of them
bad, retied of relieving.the erring pimple at the d 04141.
$4114 out of the country the raw material which they

«vitt to have used in their mills in the employment d
those ethos* fate they were unmindful of. The principle
of borrowing would relieve the rich and throw the burden
on the poor. (No, DO.) Yes, that would be so. Why were
these manufacturers and capitalists not to be called
upon so support the people? They had ample
means for doing so. He spoke not oely of
manufacturers who bad made enormous fortunes,
but of the proprietors of land who had also made large for-
tunes. The county car well able to support the people,
and they ought to be called epee to support them. No-
body could deny that. (Neer, hese) All that the house
had heard was that it would be more convenient to borrow
money on the rates ; th►tt,, however, would only increase the
bunions of the future. He thought the expanses of the
people should be borne out of the current contributions of
the rates, instead of introducing a new principle of borrow-
ing. He really hoped the house would stand by the bill of
the government, and reject the amendment. (hear.)
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said he must enter his
protest against the spirit in which this question had been
treated by the noble lord at the head of the government. It
was true that many gentlemen bad made large fortunes' by
the cotton trade, but many of them had taken themselves
and their fortunes out of the country, and bow could they
touch them! The real question was, whether by raising this
year, and in future years, rates of enormous severity, they
would redoes a great number of the smaller ratepayers to
pauperism, or whether they would take the advice of almost
all who were moat interested in the question, and borrow
the money now needed and repay it when that
prosperity returned which every one anticipated. He
agreed entirely in the observations which bad just been
made by the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets.

The hone° then divided :
For the amendment .

Against it BB-7
Colonel PATTEN suggested that the house having now
, come tea decision on this point, government should take
the matter up, and not leave it to a private member.
Lord PALMERSTON said his right hoe. friend had
stated at the beginning of the debate that however strong
the opinion of the government might be is favour of the
plan that they had proposed, yet if the house should be of •
different opinion, the question was of such a nature that they
, would bow to the decision of the house. He agreed with
the bon. member (Colonel Patten), and thought it would be
better that his right bon. friend the President of the Poor-
law Board should frame • clause embodying the principle of
the amendment which bad just been agreed to. He did not
think it could be got ready for a morning sitting, bat it
could be ready by the afternoon.
Mr. DISItA.ELI said he thought they ought not to be
called upon hastily to give a decision.
Mr. UOBDEN said he must take this opportunity of
saying • word or two in reference to • remark that had
fallen from the noble lord. It was one of greater scope
than might be supposed from the levity of the words which
fell from the noble lord. The noble lord alluded to manu-
facturers' rich manufacturers with starving people at their
doors, and said they were so unmindful of the fate of these
working people that they were sending their cotton abroad
instead of working it up in their mills. Now as one con-
nected with Lancashire—and he spoke for all parties—he
knew that 99 out of 100 of the spinners had been working
their mills and manufactories for many moothe at • loft,
some of them at a great lois. He had read • letter from •
person engaged largely in that manufacture, who stated his
own cue. He had a stock of cotton on which he could get
a profit of 20,000 f. if he sold it, but he preferred to use it
and employ his workpeople, by which he would lose 20,0001.
He (Mr. Cobden) believed that not only cotton-
spinners, but farmers and others in the north of Eng-
land, would do the mme kind of thief', and that
them was no employer who would not in a ngorona season
employ hie workpeople though he lost by it.. Such a re-
mark was calculated to produce envenomed relations be-
tween two classes of persons intimately connected, and
who were doomed to severe peril and distress, and was
language highly to be reprehended. (Hear, hear.) It
was not simply an unjust assertion affecting the character
of • large body of men, but it was made with that habi-
tual recklessness and incorrectness for which the noble lord
was remarkable. (Murmurs.) Now, with reference to the
measure be would add higurgent request to that of the right
bon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) that this measure
be dealt with with the utmost are and caution. He
should suggest that if there were • clause giving bor-
rowing powers, the government, in framing that
clause, should bear in mind the spirit in
which the amendment was carried ; because if the govern-
ment dealt with it in their own spirit they would have a
clause which would not be satidaotory, and would cause
lengthened discussion. The spirit io which the clause had
been carried was this, that it was desirable to allow the
people of Lancashire to tide over this difficulty on the
assumption that it was • temporary difficulty, and that
they should be enabled to do so as promptly as possible
without causing that ruin which would prevent them rising
stain when the arrival of the raw material enabled them to
set to work again. Therefore he suggested that there
should be no limit at all as to the amount of rate to be
reached before the borrowing power, came into operation.
He should prefer to see the original principle of a multiple
of all ratan because the position of the different parishes in
the north of England was so diverse. They should have
confidence in the people to manage their own concerns, and
they might depend upon it that the parochial authorities
would manage these nutters better than the house would.
General LINDSAY said he gathered from what fell from
the noble lord that he understood the house had decided on
tee principle of • loan instead of a rate. He (General
Lindsay) did not understand that they had arrived at any
such decision—he understood that the question of the loan
was decided by the holm in the way of an alternative, and
if he had understood otherwise, he should have voted with
the government • she power to contract a loan.
Mr. VILLIBBS aid the spirit in which the house, be
thought, had voted in this matter would be collected
also from the discussion. It certainly was not to interfere
with the provisoes of the bill ea introduced by the government,
but to admit into the bill an alternative proposition to raise
money by way of loan, and in that *pint he could under-
take to propose a clans, which would not be complicated,
and he trusted it would be printed and in the hands of
members in time to discuss it to-morrow evening.
Mr. BOUVERIE said be hoped the house would not
listen to the blandishments of the hon. member for Roch-
dale, and quoted a speech of Mr. Bright in 1849 on the
subject of distress in Ireland, in which the hoe. member op-
posed the raising money by loan, and described the distress
in Staffordshire in 1842, which had been got through with-
out any smolt aid, though the distress was much greater than
that which now existed. or which he (Mr. Bouverie) be-
lieved was likely to be experienced again.
Mr. DISRAnI asked what would be the course of busi-
ness, and suggested that the discussion on the clause should
be taken on Friday.
Lord PALMERSTON said they proposed to meet to-mor-
row afternoon, and his right hon. friend would submit a
clause, and the house would deal with it as it thought fit.
They might however discuss the matter on Friday.
Mr. LYGON asked, in the event of the bill being recom-
mitted and the bill passing through committee to-morrow,
what course government would take no Friday.
Sir G. GREY—We will state that to-morrow.

Theiiii;a;ilsenreet;MMttted prof;;Mi,;Artiihe chairman
was ordered to reportzurees.
The house thenares

POLICE AND IMPROVEMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The house ocsisidered the Lords' ameodments to this bill,
sad some d them were disagreed to.