The Express.
London, England, 1847-10-16 00:00:00

where distress existed, in order to provide sinsp:..nlatent
for the poor, for where the distress had ceased so fuslher
adrenals had been made. The advances of money that lusi
been made by the government were not kir roads, but solely
for the relief &Boded by them. He had been looking over
the correspondence of the Board of Works, and the circulars
Wool by that board, from which there could be no mistake
that the .works had not been undertaken as works of them-
selves essentially of importance, but (or the sake of procuring
relief for the destitute and of raving human life.
Col. Vastrinuton said that those works should have been
finished. The deputation demanded money, according to the
estimate of the road erosions, to finish the works which the
Board of Works had left incomplete. The ratepayers had
given their money, and the works had been left unfinished,
and, although the money had been granted, the Board of
Works did not fulfil their own estimates.
His Exestxamer said that the labour rate was not com-
pulsory, as the Lord Lieutenant's warrant for holding ses-
sions was only issued on the application of the ratepayers
themselves: it was the only means by which they could ob-
tain an advance of public money. The ratepayers asked for
money for the employment of a certain number of people,
and the great body of the people haring been thrown on
those works, the money was all consumed upon unprofitable
labour, and moons had been put upon those relief works who
had no right to be put on, and who never should have been
put there.
Sir Lucius O'Bittas said the object all had in view was
to see how they could get out of the difficulties in which
they were placed.
Ili/ EXCELLENCY said nobody could deny that they were
in great difficulties, and, whilst they dwelt upon these, the
should remember the state of the treasury in England, with
a declining revenue, and the distressed state of the working
classes there. Whilst they complained of distress here,where
it existed under their own eyes, they should remember that
there was distress in England and in Scotland also ; and as
they were all in the name boat, end v there was every dis-
position on the part of England to relieve Irish distress, they
should not press it unequally. The case was hard at either
side ; but all should do the best they could.
Mr. FITZGERALD said the roads were in a dangerous
stote, and they desired to finish them. It would greatly aid
in relieving the out-door relief system if the able-bodied
poor could be set to work on the roads which they wished to
finish.
His EXCELLENCY said they would have the whole popu-
lation throwing themselves upon the roads for labour, and
great mischief might arise from that. The plan to get small
loans to fluish their roads might be a very good one, but
where the money was to come from, he could not see,
except from Leadenhall-street ; and when it would be re-
collected that the Funds were at 83, the difficulty would be
at once apparent.
Sir LCCIIJE O'Basan Raid that the suns required would
not be a formidable one, and they would thus get out of
their difficulty.
His EXCELLINCY said that those complaints did not come
solely from the county Clare: other parts of Ireland were
just as bad. They would find the state of the roads in other
quarters something like that in the county of Clare, and
whatever would be done for that, should be done for every
other county, and all these would swell the amount to an
enormous extent.

Sir Lucius O'BRIEN said that a moderate sum monthli
would effect what was required. On some roads 5
would finish the works; others now in a very bad and dan-
gerous state, on which a carriage could not be driven with-
out endangering its springs, would require 201., perhaps
more. The county surveyor, on going through the county,
could form an estimate of what the outlay woult be. His
impression was, that about 4001. or 5001. a week would
provide a great deal of labour, and do a great deal of good.
Out-door relief might be tumid to the purpose, instead of
paying them in provition ; and persons recommended for
out-door relief might be employed at the roads, and if they
could be employed at that species of labour, the money ex-
pended in that way might be profitably used.
His EXCELLENCY said it would be a dangerous system of
employing the people. It had been tried in England, and it
had been found to be perfectly ruinous. It never could be
made to operate for good, and as suck it had been entirely
abandoned in England. If established in this country, they
would have the same work done under the poor-law as
under the Board of Works, and they would have nothing
lift for the really destitute.
Mr. Frrmieriatti, after referring to the extent of the
county of Clare, Cotk, end Mayo, said the question was, was
there any other place from which they could get the money
without applying to the government for it ?
His Excetcetme asked them to put themselves in the
same position so the government, with a revenue falling off
to the amount of 1,400,0001. in one qnarter ; and it might
be that the works they required to execute could not be
done for less than 100,0001., and where was that to come
from ?

Mr. FITZGERALD said that the government might not be
fully aware of all the circumstances which the deputation
represented.
His EXCELLENCY (smiling) assured them that the go-
vernment were perfectly in possession of those things, for
they could not occur so often without his letting those at the
other side of the water know every circumstance connected
with them. He asked, would there be no chance of raising
the money on the rates of the county ?
Mr. Firzonitams said, he did not see that there was.
The banks were very chary about making advance, to poor-
law boards, as they were ail in debt. The poor-bowie test
was what they had been desirous to establish ' - and to do so
it would have been well to have made room for additional
numbers, in order to test the really destitute; but the means
of enlarging the workhouses was not in their power. Great
abuses wool 1 be practised by a man working himself, earn-
ing, perhaps, 101. a week, and sending a portion of his
family to the poor-house.
His EXCELLENCY said, the case referred to would be a
most gross abuse of the poor law ; but it was the intention
of the government, in order to effect a good working of that
law, to increase the number of inspectors, by which
means the law would be rigidly carried out, and abuses pre-
vented. He recommended them to make exertion to in-
crease the workhouse accommodation. It might not be very

- - - -
expenaive to hire a house, or to erect a temporary place like
the fever hospitals, for the purpose of carrying out the work-
house test as far as possible. The officers of the Board of
Works might aid in increasing workhouse accommodation.
When he was at Ballinuloe lately he found that the board
of guardian. had hired a house that had been occupied as a
barrack, which was capable of holding a thousand persons—
and if by hiring a house in the same way they could provide
workhouse accommodation for them, instead of feeding them
at their own houses, they could apply the workhouse test to
the able-bodied and the destitute.
One of the deputation said they were all in debt.
His EXCELLENCY said, if the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer wanted money for their relief, he would have te
go in'o the money market for it. The government
was at desirous as they themselves could be to relieve
the countrylrom its difficulties, and it was only the want a
means that operated against their desire to do it. If they
would give him an estimate of what the county surveyor w
require, he would submit it to the government for their Cu..
sideration ; but he could not then give them any answer en
the subject. Neither would he give them any encourage-
ment as to the hopes they expected to realise from their sg.
plication.
Mr. Flrtoutatn said he feared the government was la
aware of the state of the country. The lands had been Ma
uncultivated lest spring. With the prospect of the potatoes
not growing again, the people left their lands unfilled sad
uncropped.
His EXCELLENCY said Surely it would be a hard 41111811
that the industrious classes in this country and in England
should be made to pay for such disgraceful and criminal neg-
ligence as that.
Col. VANDELEUR said the people had been told publicly
not to till their lands—that the government would till and
provide seed for them—and the consequence was, that almost
every second field in some parts of the county was uneulti~
limited and unsown. .

Sir Lucius °Tater; said the suggestion of his excellency
was the best thing they could adopt. Let the county surveyor
produce an estimate of wh►t the county would require, and
in submitting it to his excellency they would hope for a
favourable result. .

illsixcitilTEtrcy wished to guard himself against creating
an impression on the minds of the deputation that he had
been giving rise to any hope, or exciting expectations
that might not be realised. When he should receive their
estimate for a moderate loan, founded upon some positive
data, he would transmit it to the government.
Mr. FITZOEBALD said, that if driven to out-deor relief, it
would be better to set the people to werk on the roads rather
than not get anything at all in the shape of labour for
their support.
Ifis ExCELLENCY : It would increase out-door relief fifty
fold. With respect to the Land Improvement Act, what are
the landlords doing in the county of Clare ?
Mr. FITZGERALD: Trying to exist ; they have their own
embarrassments, from not getting their rents.
His EXCELLENCY: In several parts of Ireland the rents
were extremely well paid. He had had letters from gentle-
men in Leinster and Munster, who informed him that the
tenants were paying their rent', and, in some cases, offering
them without their being demanded, lie asked was there
nothing doing in the way of improvement /
Mr. FITZGERALD—Nothing. One part of the county was
composed of lime-stone gravel, which did not require drain-
ing ; other parts would require draining, but they were oc-
,
occupied by cottier-tenants, and he could not see how it
could be done. He considered that townland rating would
be preferable to district rating under the poor-law.
His EXCELLENCY feared that would 'eels a large num-
ber of people unprovided for. Taxation had hitherto not
premed heavily upon the country. The first repayment of
the advances which had been made in 1846 would not be de-
manded until the let of January next, and that could not be
looked upon as a grievance. He feared it was impossible
that a great visitation of Providence should pass over the
land without leaving traces after it, although the means of
relieving the people from that visitation had been made as
light as passible.
Mr. FiTzOERALD said the visitation by which the country
had been afflicted was an imperial calamity, and It should
have been borne by the imperial resources.
His EXCELLENCY said the Labour Rate Act had been
carried into operation by advances from the imperial treasury
to the amount of five millions ; the imperial parliament
raised a loan and relieved Ireland from the payment of half
of that sum, and extended the time for the repayment of the
other half over a period of ten years, and surely that was
treating it imperially. His Excellency concluded by re-
questing that they would have the goodness to furnish him
with an estimate of what they required, and he would for-
ward it to the government, in order to make their memorial
more complete. But, he should repeat what he before
stated, that he would not excite their hope of succeeding,
nor raise expectation founded upon anything except the
merits of the case, and the anxious desire of the government
to contribute by all means within their power to the relief of
Ireland.
The deputation then withdrew.