The Express.
London, England, 1862-07-24 00:00:00

IMPERL&L PA

HOUSE OF COYMONB.—WZDNENDAY, JULY 23
(Comtism/ hems yesterday's Express.)
NIGHT POACHING PREVENTION BILL.

Mr. WALTER bad great doubts whether the bill would
effect the object, which they all had in view. The princi-
ple did not go far enough. If they made the offence of
patching petty laresoy—if they treated the Exmcher as a
thief, be would no lamer be looked upon by his neighbours
as a hero. (Hear, hear.)
Yr. EN IGHTLEY mid it had been stated that the effect
of the bill would be to make the police unpopular, but he
had always thought that the police were bound to enforce
the laws. He also denied that game had never been con-
sideredie the light of property.
Lard GREY DE WILTON called upon his hon. friend
not to press the bill.
After a few words from Sir B. LEIGHTON and Sir G.
OM. the house divided.

The numbers were :
For the amendment
Against it
The house then went into committee
On clau.e 1.

49
139-90

Mr. STA NILA ND thought they would destroy the effect
of the bill if they left in this clause the words, "sunset
and the hour of eight in the morning." The poachers would
at once take care not to go out before sunset, and not come
home after eight o'clock in the morning. lie therefore
moved the omission of those words.

Mr. N EWDEGATE and Sir B. I:ziGHTos would not object
to the amendment.

GREYOppoised the motion.
Mr. HENLEY said the promoters of the bill had put •
whole string of 33 amendmento on the paper that were
latterly inconsistent one with the other, and no human
being could tell which they intended to support and which to
oppose, or whether it was intended to make the bill more
stringent or lees stringent.
Sir B. LEIGHTON said that as some objection had been
made to the stringent character of the bill he had thought
it better that a police officer should merely have the power
of seizing property and summoning the offender, instead of
laving the power of apprehending persons.
Mr. BASS seriously objected to strong preserves of game,
but on the other hand he was convinced that the preserva-
tion of game was A great national advantage, and tended to
the improvement of the national character. (A laugh.)
Colonel NORTH supported the bill.
Mr. GARNETT said he thought that the retention of
these words would make the bill contemptible. He com-
bated the view that timekeepers, as a rule, were unpopular
characters in the country. In supporting this bill, the pro-
moters had no wish to turn the police into gamekeepers ; all
they wished was to put • stop to the murderous attacks
which had been so frequent upon gamekeepers. He hoped
that a measure on this subject would be passed before the
end of the maim

Sir F. GOLDSMID said ho thought the remarks of the
boa gentleman were • proof of the haste in which this
Ismslaths. was Wag hurried on.
Mr. STANILAND proposed, indeference to the wishes of
the ROOM flearitary, to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. OONINGHAK opposed the bill, which be believed
was calculated to bring on conflicts between poachers and
the police. (Oh, oh.) He said that hon. gentlemen oppo-
site showed more anthusiasm upon this question than if it
bad redly been one of us importance. The serried
ranks of the opposition on this occasion must produce •
profound impression on the country. (Interruption, and
cries of " Divide.") A friend of Ms had remarked that
gni:options about the game laws drove country gent:emen
mad. (Shoute of "Oh, ob.") Hon. gentlemen opposite
were only wasting time, for they would Dot suoceed in
silencing him. (Interruption.) They represented the
monopolists of the country, they were the representatives
of the dirty acres. When • question arse affecting the
interests of their fellow ooTitrymen, these partridge slayers
—(loud cries of " Question and " Divide.")
Mr. EWART rose to order. It appeared to him that
bon. gentlemen opposite had run absolutely wild.
Sir G. GREY suggested that the hon. member for
Brightos was hardly in order.
Mr. CONINGHAM asked whether hon. members oppo-
site were in order when they interrupted him in or, on.
seemly a manner. The supporters of this garna.preserving
bill would have to answer to the people. (Ironical cheers. )
Was it thought that because the government bad turned
its hack upon. reform the people had become indifferent
to having their interests fully represented in parliament.
Hoe. members opposite would repent of what they were
doing. (Cries o Oh, oh.") Their unseemly interrup-
tions would go forth to the country. He stood there not
the nominee of any great landlord but the representative of
an indepeodent constituency. (Shoots of " order.")
Mr. B. COCHRANE rose to order.

Mr. CON !NG HAY said the irregularity came from the
opposite side. He had told them some unpleasant truths—
(ironical cheers)—which he defied them to controvert.
(Cries of " Order.") He was not discussing the provisions
of the measure. The amendment was proposed to be with-
drawn, and be trusted the same fate awaited the
bill. He could not believe that in the middle of
the nineteenth century such a bill could be se-
riously brought forward, and that a deliberate attempt
would be made to force it through the house.
At a time when the people of this country were famishing
for want of bread he thought that a parliament which re-
verted to the feudal and antiquated notion. abodt the game
laws bad better return as soon as possible to ita ooustitu-
incise. (" Divide.,•)
Sir H. FARQUHAR said he should have no objection to
swat the hon. member on any hustings in England. (Hear,
hear.) Anything more unfair, unjust, or unjustifiable than
the hon. member's remarks towards the boa. gentlemen
who sat around him he bad never bawd. (Hear, hear.) He
wee satisfied there was no body of mesa more anxious than
hie boa friends to consider the wants of the people. (Cheeni.)
Mr. KNIGHTLEY objected to the amendment being
withdrawn.

Major EDWARDS exprowed hie belief that the majority
of the working climes of the country would be found to be
is favour of the bill.

The permission to withdraw the amendment having been
refused, it was put and negatived without a division.
Sir G. GREY moved the insertion of the following
words, takes from the statute of Geo. IV., sod also from
that of the Ist and god Wm. IV.:—•` The expiration of the
first hour after sunset and the beginning of the first hour
before sunrise.•

The committee divided, sad the numbers were::
For the motion

Ari"i
The enotson eras

153-76
tuestay loot.

conseql...eatly lost.
Mr. CHAUFURD moved that the chairman should re-
port progress. The committee had exceeded its powers in
turning a night-poaching bill into one of a general character.
Mr. MASSEY said it was quite competent to the com-
mittee to deal as they pleased with the hill.
Sir G. GREY hoped his hon. friend would not press his
motion.

The committee nevertbelee divided, when there a ppeared :
For reporting progress 4l
170-129

Apl nit "

The motion was canaequeutly negatived.

Mr. AYRTON rose :to Make an amendment which
he believed to be of great importance. In this bill
there way no connexion between the provisions and
the epecific evil which it was professed to be in.
tended to remedy. This sort of legislation began some
years ago with the shipowners. The next step was
with the manufacturers of Birmingham with regard to the
dealing in old metals. The arbitrary powers of search con-
tained in that bill were ultimately abandoned. Then came
the government with their Naval Stores Bill. Another
step wu the Prevention of Obscene Publications Bill,
which be had succeeded in bringing within reasonable limits.
Let them not, under the necessity they believed existed o:
petting down these armed bands, go farther, and say that
every man who was suspected or supposed to have game in
his possession unlawfully should be liable to be stopped and
searched by any pohos-constable who might happen to meet
him. The words he proposed to introduce were taken from
the present game-law, sod would give that power only as
against those who li;d obviously made themselves liable
ender those laws—that was, those who should be found
with game in their posesecion when coming from land where
they should have bees unlawfully in the pursuit of game.
Mr. NEWDEGATE opposed the aniendmeut, 1111.1 stated
that he believed this power given to the police to stop and
search would put a stop to the practice of maraud in large
bends which now prevailed. He should he sorry to we the
spirit of sportsmanship checked, but he desired to put an
sad to the system of trafficking in game which had superseded
it, and operated as an encouragement to poaching.
Mr. PAULL also opposed the amendment.

After a few words from Sir S. Nottrncorg,
Mr. CON INGHAM observed that it was the game pre-
servers who were now the trafficker in game, which was
no longer preserved for the mere purposes of sport, and it
was in support of the traffic—the trailing in game by the
squirearchy —that the House of Commons was now celled
upon to interfere.
Sir R. LEIGHTON was willing to accept the amendment
with an alteration to the effect that any person might be
apprehended who was suspected of having game in his
posseaaion, coming from lands where he had been unlaw.
fully in pursuit of game, or any person acting in combina-
tion with such person.
Sir D. DUNDAS objected to the words "acting in com-
bination" as likely to carte difficulty.
Mr. AYRTON was only anxious that the principle of his
amendment should be affirmed, and was content to lease
the precise words to be introduced on the bringing up of the
report after consideratios.
Mr. HENLEY observed that as this amendment would
alter the scope of the bill, it would be well to take time to
consider the wording of it..
Mr. FOSTER, thought they had better adjourn the de-
bate until they were prepared with the wording of the
amendment.

Lord J. MANNERS simr so difficulty in proceeding.
Yr. OBAITFUItD laid the whole difficulty arose from
this fact, that the game preservers wished the house to
make property of game, but had not the courage openly to
ask parliament to do it, and so they had to go into ques-
tions of definition, which must result in oodles' difficulty,
soil the making of the bill a mete brutum Mann, un-
workable in law. He moved that the chairman report
Pisfirc".
Sir G. GRPY did not see that there wee any 1111110, for
Aeon* the discaseioo ; the amendment had bees
reepted, and the only question was at to the wording,
which might be arrested between that and the report.
Sir D. DUNDAJ3 objected to imposing upon the polite

ditties 'which might brim then daily sad nabscamerily
into collision with their fellowonbjecte. He (Sir D.
Dosdes) should Dot allow himself (and he Banned that
would be the poem! feeling) to be stopped and apple.
hooded on the highway by any constable without 110EIIII law ful
moose.

After a brief dimenadcm. in which Mr. ONSLOW,
Honda, sad other members took peat,
The oommittee divided on the motion for reporting
program

.
38
Ayes
Nees lOO-122
The amendment, as altered by Sir B. LticdrroN, was
speed to.

Sir G. GREY observed that there wan no ad defining
unlawful possession other than that which made its posses-
sion by a dealer or other person after so many days of the
concluaiou of the season, and urged that the wads "un-
lawful pomession" might lead to difficulty.
Sir B. LEIGHTON suggested that the difficulty might be
met by substituting the words "game unlawfully ob-
tained."

Mr. BASS moved to insert the word "fish" after
"game," thus bringing fish within the operation of the MP.
Mr. AYRTON remarked that this was molly drawing •
red herr' acmes the scent, for in effect it might justify
the appre • of a man for having • red herring in his
pocket. (A laugh.) Fish would include everything from •
minnow to • whale, and was therefore a very large ques-
tion • and he would remind the house that fish were already
sufficiently protected by special laws.
Mr. BASS said be paid a high price for his fisheries, and
was poached upon every night in the year ; sod be con-
tended that be was as much entitled to protection as the
proprietors of game. He would, however, if the committee
were opposed to him, withdraw the amendment. (Cries of
"No.")
Mr. CRAUFURD wished to know whether it was com-
petent for • member to withdraw his amendment when
others objected to its withdrawal.
The CHAIRMAN explained that the amendment had
already been withdrawn.
Alderman SIDNEY moved the omission of the words
gun or part of • gnu
Sir R. LEIGHTON objected to the amendment on the
ground that the clause only gave • discretionary power to
the police to seize the suspected person who had the "gun
or part of • gun " in his possession.
War D. DUNDAS contended that it was wrong to invest a
polieemes with such an authority.
Mr. HENLEY charact.rised the bill as • sort of arms act.
(Hear.) Usder this clause a man walking along a road with
a gun was liable to have it taken from him, because it was
suspected that the gun had been or would be used (without
any limit as to time) for poaching. (Hear, hear.) He thought
that this was • much stronger measure than even the hon.
baronet who had charge of the bill himself contemplated.
Sir F. GOLDSMID suggested that • volunteer coming
home from drill might be brought under the clause.
Sir B. LEIGHTON said be certainly would if he had been
engaged in poaching. He thought that no danger would
arise from miring this power to the police.
Sir G. GREY said the words proposed to be omitted
were governed by the fact of the party being suspected of
poichrog.
Mr. W. H. FORSTER said as • strong feeling for the
preservation of game existed among a great number of jus-
' tices, it was toeless for the hon. bete:set to assert that there
was no fear of the police, who acted very much under the
control of justices, exercising this power improperly. (Hear,
hear.) He was stroogly in favour of the amendment.
Alterman SIDNEI was satisfied that if power were
gives to the police to stop a poacher on the high road sod
to take his gun from him, it would be • premium on mur-
der, as be was not likely to give up the gun without
strong resistance. Oo behalf, therefore, of the publiti, as
well as io the interest of the constabulary, he objected to
such a power being included in the bill, which he must say
was a suspicious measure, and distasteful to • large portion
of the house.

Sir B. LEIGHTON said the best answer be could give
the hon. member was to refer him to the report of the
chief of the Staffordshire constabulary, who stated that,
with two exceptions, Do resistance had been offered to the
polios by the persons whom they had searched for imple-
ments of poaching.
Sir G. GREY said he thought it right to explain is re-
(stenos to that report that be had received a communication
from Sir Walter Riddell, the county coo,: judge, stating
that several actions hod been brought against the police for
searching poachers, sod that it was very painful to him, as
judge, to have so repeatedly to inform the police that they
were violating the law. He added, that a mutual insur-
ance fund had been formed, and that the police continued to
pursue the same illegal conduct. He (Sir G. Grey) mote to
the chief of the constabulary in Staffordshire upon the sub-
ject, but he altered so explanation, sod only listed that he
had given instructions to the police to discontinue the
practice in future.
The committee then divided :
For the amendment 5l
Against it
The amendment was coamspently
Upos the motion Of Sir J. PAXTON, the CEILIRMAN re.
ported progress.
ELECTIONS DURING RECESS BILL.

This bill Iva; r!;:tlaIF;;;;;Iii.nle:

The Highland Bonds sod Bridges, the Militia Ballots
Suspension, the Militia Pay, sad the Lunatics Law
Amendment Bills were read a third time and passed.