The Express.
London, England, 1851-06-05 00:00:00

THE NATIONAL SOCIETY.

THE EXPRESS; THURSDAY - EVENING, JUNE 6, 1851.

bees =dais another pinee he the premetion et what woe
calked meant ethiestkm; sad was riot • thing which they
SS Chillehmen would like to see prevail ? (Cheep.) Would
:km
Ike to have excluded from their schools every sort of
bathing ; and was not thii, then, another element
Izmisiazdea which ought to make them desirous, by
to their own peculiar views, so shape their
SPUN as to enable them all to act cordially together?
(Cheers) In spite of the management clauses every new
Wiwi enabled the clergyman to get the education of his
lbsk mere into his own hands. (Hear, hear.) In the first
SSW every clergyman must of necessity be the chairman of
the committee, and his curate, if he had one, must
oleo be a member of it; in addition to which a great
deal of power had been given him in connexion
with the pupil teachers, whose certificates the clergyman
must sign. (Cheers.) Ile spoke entirely in the spirit of
peace, and if Mr. Denison would withdraw hie amendment,
he could not propose his amendment; but if that gentle-
man persevered, he should move the following.
Earl NELSON could understand that it was perfectly
den for the hon. baronet to make a speech on Mr. Deni-
ms's motion, but it appearcd to him that Mr. Robins's
amendment ought to be taken first.
Mr. GOULBURN being again appealed to, expressed an
opinion that it was perfectly in order for the hon. baronet
to move his amendment at that time.
Sir J. PAK INGTON then asked Mr. Denison if he
geoid withdraw his motion ?
Mr. DENISON.—I beg to say that I will not withdraw
it. (Loud cheers.)
Sir J. PA/CINGTON would therefore move the follow-
ing amendment: "That the cause of sound religious instruc-
tion and the interests of the church demand, at the present
juncture, the friendly co-operation of the National Society
and the Committee of Council ; and this meeting, satisfied
that such co operation must be for the advantage of the
National Society se well as of the church at large, desires to
deprecate any renewal of the witation which has charac-
terised the recent meetings of the Society, and to express its
earnest hope that the two bodies may act cordially toge-
ther." (Cheers.) •
Mr. CHILDERS said before he proceeded to second the
amendment he wished to know what reply Mr. Denieon
had to make to the suggestion that ho should withdraw
his resolution.
The Rev. G. A. DENISON begged to sae that he would
cost withdraw it. (Cheers and disapprobation.)
Mr. CHILDERS regretted very much to hear that re-
ply, and would now second the amendment. Mr. Denison
had brought forward a milder resolution than heretofore,
hut he doubted whether, if he had not known that oppo-
sition wag arising, he would have tempered his motion
as he had done. (Cries of " oh, oh.") In the Morning
Chronirk of the 20th of April, he found bins using these
expressions, " Organising training institutions which shall
be altogether independent of state !assistance." That did
I not indicate a desire for very cordial co-opera-
' tion with the state. (Hear, hear.) He hoped
the meeting would rescind the resolution, passed at the
three last meetings. If lie knew anything of the feelings
et the great majority of the laity, perseverance in the
asarse hitherto pursued would deprive them of lay assist-
ance. Ho knew one noble lord, a distinguished senator and
statesman, who, having subscribed 100!. a year to the
misty, had withdrawn both his name and his subscription.
(Meer, hear.) With such a warning before them, he hoped
titer mould not for the fourth time pass a resolution to dis-
gust se many of the society's moderate supporters, and so
many of the best churchmen in the country. (Hear.)
The Rev. S. ROBINS said he had, as the incumbent of
a pour awl populous parish, formerly received gre:d
soutane° from the committee of Council, and he
could belie his own convictions if he did not
state his belief that every. movement which that body
had made since was in the right direction. (. Hear, hear,"
and " No, no.") It was most important that harmonious
nditisas should be maintained between the church and the
state. There was an ens rmous work to be done, sod, if he
might so express himself; they could not afford strife.
(Cheers.) The assistance which the state had thus far ren-
dered to the church was exceedingly great; and there was
net a lawn or village of any importance in which the effect
of the educational movement might not be seen. (Hear.)
i Since January, 1017, no fewer than 630 schools had been
built through the aid of government grants. (Hear, hear.)
During the last year—the year last reported—out of Vi,oool.
of public money granted to aid the building of schools,
20,000!. went to church schools, the remainder being divided
amongst dissenters and Roinanista ; and in the same period
of 96,000/. granted to masters and teachers, 65,0001. was dis-
tributed in the established church. He felt as strongly
as Mr. Denison himself that they were not at liberty to
make any compromise of truth, even if the benefits wore
tenfold, and the necessities infinitely greater. (Hear, hear.)
But there was no use in saying one thing, when, in reality,
they meant another. (Hear, hear.) lie believed that no
compromise was asked—(hear, hear)—ho believed that in
accepting the grants no sacrifice of principle was made.
The government imposed certain conditions. But what
were they ? The first condition was inspection.
Now inspection originated about the year 1540.
It was not, at first, very favourably received ;
but it was now found that the schools through.
out the country had benefited by it. (Cheers.) All
parties shared in the benefit. The clergy gained informa-
tion which their peculiar habits and pursuits did not enable
them otherwise to obtain as regarded the technical working
Of a school; the sluggish master was quickened, the active
one encouraged ; while the children rejoiced in obtaining
the approbation of those who came to them clothed with
high authority. Ile thought he might assume that the
working of this portion of the government plan had not
been injurions ; and he would now ask the attention of the
meeting for a few minutes, while he spoke of that which
formed the leading feature of the whole question, namely,
the management clauses. (Hear, hear.) The management
clauses were four iu number. By the first it was provided,
that a managing committee of laymen should be selected
in populous towns from amongst persons who had sub-
scribed a certain amount, and that they should be chosen by
subscribers of a certain amount, and that both the electors
end the elected should be !mai laic members of the church
at England. (Hear.) By the second it was provided,
that in small towns end villages, in which there
ware inadequate materials fur terming suck a com-
mittee, the managing body should be nominated in a deed.
The third clause had reference to places in which there were
SO materials at all for forming a committee; and in that case,
which, as they all knew, frequently arose in rural parishes,
the school, though assisted by the government in the must
liberal manner, might still remain without any lay com-
mittee ut all. The fourth clause applied to small parshes,
whose population was over 500, fur which a committee
might be formed from a neighbouring parish, or from
neighbouring parishes, with a proviso that the managers
should be nominated, and nut elected. lie ought, perhaps,
to add, that the government had recently made a concession,
to the effect that parishes having a population of 700 might,
if it were desired, be relieved from the application
of the first clause. Now, he would ask, what hardship
these clauses imposed upon them? Did the clauses com-
mand them to accept the Leo-operation of enemies in work-
ing their parish schools 1 No ; for none could be members
of the committee who did nut give satisfactory evidence
that they were members of the Church of England. It
might be objected that they were only cold and formal
friends. No ; they proved their sincerity and their interest
by giving their money and their attendance. (Interrup-
tutu.) He wished as far as possible to avoid exciting
topics, but he could not help saying that the real question
at issue was whether laymen should have their due share of
tafluence in church schools. (Cheers, and cries of " No,
se.") By the management clauses there was re-
served to every clergyman the entire control of
all that regarded religion and morality; and were
they prepared to say that fur all the rest, the
laity were not as capable as themselves of managing •
school ? (" Hear, hear," and " No, no.") As regarded
secular teaching, diseiglne, and oversight, and the general
fitness of the master, would openly acknowledge that he
believed any layman wits as capable of judging of them as
himself. (Laughter.) lie was very sorry that Mr. Denison
had allowial himself to speak as if the catholic faith were
la peril—(hear, bur)—or as if it wen less precious to than
who differed from him than it was to himself. (" Hear,
bear," mid sheers.) It seemed to him (Mr. Robins) tki
blight al Wastice to impute to any of them that they were
Nil and order about that to which they had devotesitheie
liweesaSimers)—sad he hoped Mr. Denison would Mg
what be bed said. If the minister wished to teach tot
'alkalis Stith to the little ones of his flock, then
was add* no one to hinder him. The National
&Mem bad again and again expressed their approval ems,
the 0118111. (No, no.) 't he last condition in question was
thm of gimbal. That was a point on which there had been
misconception. On all - '- which involved

ties in which it was placed. Now, If he bad been
ttresponsible for that position, he might have heei-
to take any step; but, when he remembered
that he was not singly responsible, but that a vest majority
et that society had decided the question—C" no, no "), and
that the committee itself had sanctioned that decision, he
hit that it was not his business to give way, and that as
circumstances had placed him in the foreground of the
battle he was bound to proceed. It was with that view ,
that he had given notice of the motion which he should
have the honour to submit to the meeting—a resolution
which was purely and entirely defensive, and he
wished the meeting so to receive it. He had frees
the first taken great pains to put his case plainly end
frankly before the public. and he never asked persons te
affirm more than appeared on the face of hi+ motion; but in
order to avoid any possible mistake in this matter, and in
order to prevent persons from supposing that when he
asked them to protest against interference with church
doctrine and discipline, he asked them to protest against the
receiving of state aid, he had prepared certain words to be
added to the resolution, which he would either propose him-
self or accept at the hands of any other person. The reso-
lution of which he had given notice was as follows:—" That
this meeting deeply regrets that her Majesty's government
continue to disallow the equitable claim of members of the
Church of England, as set forth in the resolution of the
Annual Meeting of this society, June 6th, 1849 —That
founders of church schools, who see fit to place the ma-
nagement of their schools in the clergyman of the parish
and the bishop of the diocese,' should not on
that account be excluded from state assistance
towards the building of their schools." To these
words he now wished to add the following—not to
set himself right with his friends, who did not doubt him,
but with a large portion of the public who did That
this meeting desires to express its sense of the very great
importance of securing the most friendly relations and the
most harmonious co-operation with the civil power, and of
being enabled to accept assistance of every kind from the
parliamentary grant for education, provided always that
such co-operation and such assistance involve no interference,
direct or indirect, actual or virtual, wilh the doctrine or the
discipline of the church." (Cheers.) It was, he
thought, of immense importance that they should show, in
the face of the country, that they did tang together and
hold together fast for the catholic faith. (Loud cheers)
They could scarcely have failed to overlook the steady,
though slow, progress which was being made by the com-
mittee at council on education toward, the establishment of
the office of Moister of Education. (Hear, beer.) There
appeared to he a design to place the whole education of the
country under the control of the committee of council ;
and he held in his hand a remarkable docu-
ment, emanating from Mr. Fletcher, one of the
inspectors of schools, which advocated au education rate,
on the ground that the present system had created a vast
number of punil teachers, who, if they were not suffi-
ciently employed, might prove dangerous members of
society. It was a curious fact that the head of the govern-
ment, in a speech the other day, declared that, as far as he
was concerned, he had very little sympathy indeed with the
National Suei.ey. The reliance of the Church of Eng-
land was on the right arm of her great King;
but the church of England, if she would be
steyesl on that arm, must beware how she sold the truth for
gold—C" Oh, oh," and cheers.). ter how she buttered the
truth away. (Cries of "Oh, oh.") Had he said anything
to offend any one ? (A voice : " It 4 off. nsive.") Was he not
to be allowed to say that the church of England hail a truth
to maintain? (Hier, hear.) Surely the had something
which she must hold last, and for which she was bound to
be faithful unto death. She must bold fast that which she
had, that no man might take her crown. (Cheers.) Had
they not that which they must hold fast, at whatever cost ?
Had they not the teaching of the church of the apostles?
(" No tractarianism.") Did they nut remember that they
had the doctrine and discipline of the church of the
apostles? (Interruption, and tries of "Shame.") Ile
should himself be ready to listen without hissing or zunkiug
any other noise ; and he really thought it hard that he had
nut been allowed to proceed without interruption. (Hear.)
The CHAIRMAN said the meeting must be aware that
interruption did but prolong discussion.
Mr. DENISON was merely stating what hail always
appeared to him to he undoubted facts. (Hear hear.) lie
certainly did not know that any churchman disputed that
they had the teaching of the Apostles—(cheers) ; or that
they did not lament they had not the discipline of the
Apostles. (Cheers.) lie was nut prepared to hear that
any one denied that they had the Apostolic succession, the
creeds, and the sacraments. (Cheers.) But it might be
asked, what had these things to do with their meeting ?
(Hear, hear.) He answered that they had everything to
.to with it. (Cheers.) For they were a society for the edu-
cation of children upon the principles of the English
church; and these were those principles. (Cheers.) By
their faithfulness to them they would stand or fall; unit he
would say to them, " liold feat that which they had heard;
be faithful even unto death, that no one took away their
crowa." (Cheers.) Ile begged to move his resolution;
and, if the meeting would give him leave, he should he very
glad to move the additional words which he bad appended
to it. (Loud and long-coutinued cheers.)
Mr. A. li. HOPP. said that after the decisive, cnthusiaa
tic, and emphatic declarations of the society at its last three
annual meeting% and at that great auembly last year,
which, if no meeting of the society, was one that it might
well adopt and make one of its trophies—(cheep)—he little
expeeted to be called upon once more to reaffirm the Magna
CUrta of free education, and to demand equal toleration
from the government to that national church of which our
Sovereign was by the constitution obneed to be a member,
and from whose chief ministers she received her inaugura •
tion in that royal abbey under which they stood. (Loud
cheers.) Yet this simple claim—a claim so small as to be
almost intangible, and which they hardly knew how to
urge, because they could hat ily know what opposition it
would meet with—they were for the fourth time assembled
to press upon an unwilling and tiic role air jades Commit-
tee of Council. (Cheers.) Against the absurd and mon-
strous denial of justice of which they complained, Mr.
Denison, with that forwardness which was best tor this world
sad for the nest, had determined obstare principils, and in
1848, that memorable year in which they had seen the fruits
et state education and act paternal government in the red re-
poblicanianof which Prussiaand France were each the focus
...en the never-to-be-forgotten June of that year, when
those horrible scenes were being enacted in the streets of
Paris—did Mr. Denison stand forward on behalf of the
Saxon people of England, and of the member+ of their
gore and reformed church, to oppose the establishment of a
system under which in foreign hinds principles had grown
up which had riven society to its very base. (Cheers, and
eels, of "Oh.") Oentlemen who cried " Oh ' and hissed,
were the worst friends of the Committee of Privy Council.
lie called upon the meeting as men, as Englishmen,
and, above all, ae catholic churchmen, to accept the resolu-
tion of his noble-hearted friend. (Loud cheers.)
Sir JOHN PAKINOTON, M.P., rose to move an
amendment, but
The Rev. SANDERSON ROBINS interposed, claiming
the priority, inasmuch as he bad given notice of an amend-
ment upon Mr. Denison's resolution a month since.
The ARCHBISHOP ruled that he ought to have the
, precedence, but
The Right Hon. H. GOULBUIPX; M.P., observing
that, by the practice of another place, Sir John Pakington
would clearly have a right to speak to the resolution, having
first caught the eye of the most rev. chairman, his grace re-
voked his decision.
Sir J. PAKINOTON, after expressing the diffidence he
Mt in addressing arch an audience, said that, with re-
gard to the terms of Mr. Denison's motion, they were
scarcely intelligible to him, and therefore he must tarn to
the former motion of which he had given notice, and than,
he believed, he should find the real cause why it had boas
coved. (Cheers.) It was not, however, has (Sir J. Pa.
hieleta's) object either to criticise the language oleo
Ni. gentleman's resolution, and still per M Lae
wain hisseelf in the intricacies of the
=mittrather to state how deeply he bpeenlai thins
(Cheers.) So deeply dud he eatertaia this
gist he vesemil yesterday to rosamasad to ens
sdih wheels was sating that they shwahl at ease
defer Is Os imaarsbasa by the ossomitese,
which hlr eine bid is a amuse is maim*
that he &said less ft would bars amnia with it
the need easeaties of every geodesist is HSI rose.
(Load then.) Ns (Sir J. Pahlagtoa) was sure that
'ight b bra to their soared airs amid arise best
the dirass..(lsoar, hear)—sad he had thersers see.
with the deepest regret, the uses white hod has elm
in the lot eventful year the result of whisk Wlama Is
impress upon the public %nine a feeling that the awed
meetings were real!), now the snobbiest nose et
' °AT= of contentions hewer

Yesterday (as belay' annotaged in the asale
day's Eritrea.), the fortieth meal ase= was held •t
the Society's Central School IhMetnary,
Westminster. The intenseinterosindeb des Who under
discumion excited amongst the friends and of the
meaty, warn etanifesud in the crowds which 'Goad
the buddies long before asset, at while limes it hoe hew
enuesesed that the done wadi be opened. Then *et
opestien was at length padonnei, a tech teak plass whisk
has hardly ever been surpassed, even during the memorable
Jenny Lind rage. The specious building was soon filled;
and probably more than a thousand gentlemen, of whom a
large proportion were clergymen, were present. At one,
the chair was taken by his Grace the Archbishop of Can-
terbury, who was supported on the right hand by the
Archbishop of York, the Earl of Harrowhy, the Bishops of
London, Bangor, Oxford, and Sodor and Man ; and on the
left by the Bishops of Winchester, Salisbury, and Chiehee-
ter, Mr. Bamford Hope, M.P., and the Rev. 0. A. Deni-
s sn. There were also prtsent the Bishops of St. Maph,
Manchester, Worcester, Norwich, and Moray and Rose;
the Deans of Hereford, Carlisle, Salisbury, Winchester,
Manchester, Bristol, and Battle; Archdeacons Sandford,
Sinclair, Brymer, Hone, Creyke, Moore, Churton, Hone
11. C. Jones, Rushtnn, Burney, Mien, Thorp, and Hill;
Earls Nelson, Abergavenny, Chichester, and Effingham;
Marquis of Lothian ' • Lord John Manners, M.P., Lord
Hodestlale, Rev. Loral J. Thynne, Lard R.ulatoek, Rev.
Lord H. Kerr, Loral Henry Cholmondelcy, Lord Robert
Coen. Viscount Downe ; Sirs C. Anderson, Bart.; J. P
itiorlies, Bart., M.P.; T. D. Acland, Bart., M.P.; W. K.
Panahar, Rut. ; W. Stirling, Burt.; W. Junes,
Dent.; H. Martin, Bart.; J. Gi bbon'', Bart.; B. N.
Buxton, Bart., M.P. ; Thomas Phillips ; Revs.
Sir 11. Thompson, Bat., Sir 0. Provost, Bart.;
Hon. and Rev. G. Herbert, R. W. S. West, Horace Powia,
L. Irby, H. Legge, L. V. Harcourt, C. Twistletun, 11. M.
Villiera, W. H. Scott, 6. Yorke ; Right Hon. Henry fiend-
burn, J. C. Talbot, W. Spring Rice, F. D. Ryder; Rev.
Drs. Jell, Spry ; Revs. 0. A. Denison, A. Wilson, D. Cole-
Vika J. P. Wigram, J. G. Leetsdale, J. Jennings, W.
Hart; Admiral H. Hope; Major-Lleneral Shawe; Colonel
Sheet; Majors hi. Montagu, Stanton; Captains T. S.
Thompson, R.N., Gladstone, R.N., Meson, lt.N., Ryder,
111. N. • lion. A. Gordon; lion. Captain Maude; Captain
Andrews; Mmes. C. Lowther, M.P., W. Patten, M.P.,
W. Deedes M.P., W. Event, M.P., H. Russell, M.P., R.
D. Mangle:, M.P., J. W. Childers, M.P., E. B. Denison,
M.P., R. Cardwell, M.l'., C. 11. Frewen, M.P., Clement
Ricardo, M.P., 0. F. Matheson, W. Cotton, J. C. Coign.
boon, P. Casanova W. Davis, C. A. Wood, W. V. liar-
siert, Lc., &c.
The most Rey. CHAIRMAN having said the collect,
"Prevent us, 0 Lord," the collect fur Quinquagesima Sun-
day, and the Lord's Prayer,
His GRACE stated the manner in which the proceedings
would take place, after which he observed that it was with
much regret that he found notice of certain resolutions had
been given, for he could not but look hack upon the time
when, up to the last three or four years am, their meetings
were rather for the purpose of learning iu what way their
friends from the country were performing the great duty of
Christian education, and in what way that great purpose
mild be best effected. The resolutions had no doubt been
framed with the best intentions, but still, in discussions of
that kind, they had found by experience that it was ex-
ceedingly difficult hot to introduce matters on which men's
minds were greatly excited, and on which a temper was apt
le prevail which was not altogether suited to the
meeting of a society for the promotion of practical
Christianity. (Loud cheers.) In consequence of this,
ioatinued his Grace, (quoting from the manifesto
of the committee) " the committee of the National So-
eiety, to whom the management of its affairs is by the
'Meter exclusively entrusted, earnestly deprecate the dis-
sension which they have reason to expect at the general
tweeting of the wee ty on Wednesday next. They consider
each and all of the propositions, of which individual MOLL-
here of the society have given notice, alike unneceavary ;
and they deem the public discussion of them at t..c annuul
meeting calculatal to embarrass the o,.erations mid to ins-
' pair the efficiency of the society." (Cheers.) In that opi-
nion his grace cordially concurred; but, if it was too late to
hope that the parties would withdraw from their purpose,
he trusted, at least, that there would be no such spirit pre-
vailing as should be inconsistent with a meeting of Christian
brethren. (Cheers.) lie would only add in conclusion
that, supposing the disciecioa to take place, he had been
desired by the committee to state that it win their intention
be close the meeting at six o'clock. (Cheers.)
The ballotting tickets were then collected, and Messrs.
Luttwidge and Sharpe were appointed auditors to scrutinise
the poll, and Canon Hutchinson and Mr. Wilson to super-
intend their labours.
The SECRETARY then read the report, which was a
wiry long printed document, in which it was stated that
collections under the Queen's letter, in August, 1819, had
been received from 9,002 parishes or ecclesiastical districts,
amounting to 24,7541., a sum about 2,0001. less than that
realised under the royal letter of 1816, notwithstanding the
number of collections was greater. This falling-
elf was attributed to the severe distress prevaitiag
in agricultural districts, the returns from many parishes
amounting only to one half (tithe former collections. The
sum voted out of On, fund since the last report had been
7,a321., and authority had been given to the treasurer to
pay 7,6961. voted by the committee in former years for
works, the completion of which had been duly certifhal. By
this expenditure accommodation for 23,20 b scholars had
been secured, and 107 teachers' houses had been built.
Outstanding accounts, amounting to 3,0981. from the special
fund for manufacturing and mining districts (the whole of
which had now been applied) had also been paid, and accom-
modation for 7,813 children and 18 teachers' residences had
by this means been secured. In the whole, therefore,
additional room had been provided for 31,019 children
during the last year by the aid of the society in 270 schools,
either built or enlarged, and 125 teachers' residences had
been secured. Since the last report schools in 206 place" had
been received into direct union with the society, making the
total number of schools in union with the society 9,629, in addi-
tion to these united through the diocesan boards of education.
The report, after giving other details of the society's ope-
rations, concluded by stating that, on the whole, the com-
mittee bad good ground for believing that the great work
undertaken by the society forty years ago is making steady
progress. On a review of the or erations of the autiety
during the last three years, they had the satisfaction of re-
porting, that additional accommodation had been provided
fur 100,914 scholars in schools built by aid of the society;
that the society's organiaing masters had been fully occu-
pied in the improvement of schools throughout the country
with the best result.; that the receipts fur the sale of
school books and materials in the depository had advauced
at the rate of 1,0001. annually ; that the number of teachers
sent out from the several training establishments of the
society hod been larger than at any former period ; and
that measures had been adopted both to build new training
institutions, and in many caws to enlarge the accommoda-
tion and increase the et&iency of the institutions already in
existence. The committee would do their best to further
she pauper thus made ; and they look with confidence for
as may enable them to supply to the rapidly
iners=ptpulation of this country a sound religious in-
struction based on the principles of the Church of England.
(Cheers.)
The Rev. G. A. DENISON rose, amidst loud cheers,
grwith hisses, to move the first 'iodation. He said
ainy anxieties in add • the meeting; but he
no rester anxiety than this, to might be able to
home the mating with the setisfactinnallWag borne tor
• MN more to a great principla.sollipst having . Ives
NW SUM etellisee to a single penis paean. It was now
three yeas age tante he called the aeialia of the society,
at an annual aeming, to whet eganal* dim to be the
Injustice dons by the committal ETeu sh en aimatioe is
excluding a eertain elan of awe lad= Sea building
Eats. That ezclusion 11111111111.11111111111111 d 1/12S arirwhelne-
at the annul eatelag Meal the 11* 'Chia
al...Vaamittee of the radar bed theladves mar
and ghee ate ; for in thelr andadleg peter la the
effsfaingatee, written as Se ll* of Deferatra
1111* they maid they newillegly dna Zia oessimpon•
data teeente they coed not reeenternad tie miteaperat
dram en the simple pound to which be (Mr. Deane)
wee aim seedne the vote of that day, benne, he
egad ft at he a phaa, mid tatelitgest vote, end
na
mad up with ether *age oda whiall lad* nate
do. The liPmilfti,llo INK lack..' the este
with the aseenitteo etemeeil-
11ev. Mr. WILLIAMS, The of Hendon, age H
odder, and was internees& with lend cries of "Osier,
anam," Chair, chair "- which lireNi mmllnued for sense
dine. The rev. was unamitood to intimate
that he objected to the Isom which the speaker was pur-
suing.
The CHAIRMAN decided that Mr. Williams was out of
order.
The ROT. O. A. DENISON contiansd—Notwithstanding
the dukes of the sea mitere le eine the
and no YAW al 11111111•11111111M1 the miniationfaugg=reoe4
the spindle grwand that the mamba Wawa led bier-
kred with that local freebies ad* beincel did&
founders of schools in thisennalegy, enallathey Mil
dank to be aided by the fteet• las se fink Ina
data were legal ; thet, gap anal thas•
alms in 1861 exactly ia the am painern illy IMMO
Lad this year he would we ay ea aingesta, bat
a now dihealty had arisen ; for time wee a hige taaber
of nasohne of this society who, not Amin it as my gay-
anal Nthemselves to be so excluded, would est dim able,
to esaullabt that feeling. Now, really that was indiesi awe
aseme. Neither he nor those who acted with him bad
or., gilt? interfere, except by advice, with the dimes
Men et Ia taking the management clause* of the Nab.
= ittetweeil. It was rather bard to be Emseasel sei
seal to be held up by all sorts of MM. he
Ida what the committee of the society had amateelL
Ilia it was in that state of things that he stood beam reissitisg. For his own part he would not have gene
lbws at all if he had sot been forced to do so. He was re-
=in his quiet vicarage in fletnersetshins—(" oh, oh," and
ter)—he was waiting with extreme anxiety expecting to
hear every day that the select committee of the House of
Lords which was promised last year was appointed—(hear,
hear)—end he desired that there mmiigght be no necessity for
coming there to intercept the considerate. of those things
which properly belonged to the business of that society.
(Hear, hear) While he was in this state of expectation
and be would repeat, notwithstanding the laugh, waiting
quietly at home, all of a sadden he understood from very
good authority that a protion was circulated all over the
country to purify and improve the committee of this
society by -mating out of it a pertain leaven. He would not
mention WINS, because that might create irritation ; bat
that prooositioa was sent round, and it was accompanied
with an Intimation that a great effort would be made to
rescind everything which had been done daring the last
three yeses and to resent the society from the false pail-

Oruction, and let the National Society, as the chureh's
handmaid, take care fur the dissemination of her doctrines.
(Loud cheers.)
The Rev. FRANK SUDDEN thought that if any gen-
tleman believed the society to be conducted by a party he
ought at once to propose an inquiry into the matter; but
what had • vote of confidence in a government measure to
do with it? (Cheers.) Why then bring up members from
the country to do what was, atter all, merely to op-
pose one or two individuals ? (Cheers.) He should vote
for Mr. Denison's motion because he considered the amend-
ment was proposed for a different purpose than appeared on
the face of it. At the same time he believed that the
management clauses as they had been amended were now, '1
if not perfect, at least greatly improved (Cheers.) That
improvement, however, he attributed entirely to the exer-
tion' of the National Society. (Loud cheers.) But there
was a more serious matter connected with this subject than
these clauses, namely, that the Home of Lords, where the
church was alone represented, had been excluded from any
voice in the matter. (Loud cheers.) His grace's ',redo
ceesor, in 1839, had asked what security they had that this
grant should not, in process of time, be distributed for poli-
tical purposes. s(Cheers.) Lord Ashley, in whom the
hon. baronet (Sir J. I'akington) would have great
confidence—(a laugh)—had expressed similar senti-
ment*, and he might also appeal to the Bishop
of Oxford who had protested against state assistance alto-
gether, if purchased at the expense of religions teaching.
(Cheers.)
A loud cry was now raised for several different speakers,
but the most rev. chairman said that an old friend of edu-
cation who had attempted to speak at an earlier stage was
now entitled to address them. He therefore called on
Mr. GIPPS, who denied the existence on the part of the
laity of • feeling of jealousy towards the clergy with respect
to education. lie considered that the question of religious
liberty was deeply involved in this matter. (Loud cheers.)
He knew a case in which the promoters of a school were
not allowed to insert a clause requiring the master to be a
communicant of the church of England. (Cheers.) The
only answer they could get to their application was,
" There is the law, and you must abide by it." (Cheers.)
The Rev. R. BURG istiS, of Chelsea, amidst loud cries of
" Divide," supported the amendment. Ile charged the sup-
porters of Mr. Denison with wishing to interfere with Slone
who had no objection to the clauses. They ought also to
remember that when the state afforded aid to a school,
it became one of its founders, and was entitled to be heard.
(Cheers.)
Mr. J. G. HUI3BARD, Deputy-Governor of the Bank
of England, said that he was astonished to find in a paper
he held in his hand the amendment, which in the first
instance it was announced would be moved by Lord'
Robert Grosvenor, and seconded by Sir J. Pakington, ac-
ponied by a statetnent to the effset that it would be
moved " with a view either to purge the society of the
offensive principles adopted at its two lost general meet-
ings, or to leave it entirely in the hands of the pricateraft."
(L proar.)
Sir JOHN PAK INGTON desired to know what paper
Mr. Hubbard was reading from ?
Mr. HUBBARD : The Daily News. (Loud cries of
44 ohs.)
Mr. Hubbard was proceeding to read further, but he
was prevented by loud cries of, "We hove nothing to do
with the Daily Netei," and at length a gentleman rase to
ask whether it was in order for Mr. Hubbard to discuss an
article in a public print?
The URAL it.sLkN replied that it was decidedly in order,
but the opinions of the paper had certainly been very much
disclaimed by the meeting. (Cheers.)
Mr. HUBBARD said he sous pleased to see the powerful
manner in which that disclaimer had been given, and ho
then proceeded to discuss the general subject. Nothing
could be mere foreign to the matter than to allude to do-
cuments put forth on former occasions by Mr. Denison.
(011.) The fact was, his present resolution was only a re-
afiirming of the society's previous declarations. It was quite
absurd to talk of the generosity of the state to the church,
because of some 25,01101. which it granted the church bad
got 20,0001. It hail laid down the principle that it would
give in proportion to the private donations ; and the large
share of the public grant obtained by the church only
proved the liberality and zeal of the latter. (Loud cheers.)
He should vote against the amendment as being by inference
a vote of censure upon the previous decisions of the so-
ciety.
The Rev. Mr. MAYOW, who spoke from the body of the
mom, said Mr. Burgess's argument, with regard to the
compulsory clauses, appeared to him transparently falls
Ciolld. (Hear, hear.) No doubt it was easy to avoid the
management clauses by refusing to take public money, but
there was nevertheless an infraction of religious liberty
and • violotiou of fair play. (Cheers.) All that
the society had claimed was men justice for the
church, and for that justice they were hound to exert
themselves. They were asked that day to pursue a retro-
grade policy, and to give their sanction to the imposition of
the management clauses. Ile, ter one, could not consent
to any such course.
Lord R. GROSVENOR said he rose to say a few words,
is consequence of an allusion which had been made to him
by Mr. Hubbard in connexion with an article in the Dai y
news—(hear) • and he would first explain the position in
which he stood. Some tittle ago he was rsquested by some
friends to come forward on that occasion and propose a reso-
lution to the meeting. lie felt very great disinclination
to do so, because he did not wish the society to
continue the practice of discussing subjects foreign to its
special object as a society. (liear, hear.) When he under-
stood that the committee, in whom he had perfect con-
fidence,
intended themselves to bring forward a resolution,
he immediately stated to his friends that in that case
nothing would induce him to move an amendment. When
he afterwards heard that the committee deprecated all dis-
cussion, he was strengthened in his determination to take
a silent part iu the proceedings; and in this resolution he
should have persevered but for the allusion of Mr. Hub-
bard. Now, he must say that though he had the greatest
respect for the public journals, he would be extremely
sorry to hold himself responsible either for any sentiments
which they might express or fur any which they might
attribute to himself. All he could say in reference to the
article in question was, that nothing ou earth would shuck
hint more that to have it supposed that it expressed, in any
degree, his sentiments, especially in the terms in which it was
couched. Ile greatly deprecated the effect of these angry
discussions. On that occasion the contending 'tunics had
attributed to each other some concealed object. No one
could quarrel with Mr. Denison for disliking the manage-
ment clauses ; the only question was, whether it was wise
or prudent to discuss them in the vague sort of manner in
which they must be discussed at such a meeting as that, and
in the face of such consequences as were likely to ensue.
(Hear, bear.) If the question was to be discussed, let it be
discussed in parliament, which had the power of causing
an alteration. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the resolu-
tion, he could nut help still entertaining a hope that Mr.
Denison would consent to withdraw it, There were many
present who would be greatly pained at being forced to a
division. A suggestion had been made to him (Lord It.
Grosvenor) which he would like to have had some time to
essaider: it was, that he should move, as a sort of inter-
mediate step, the adjournment of the debate. (Loud cries
et
" No, no.") Of course, if it did not meet with general
seneurrence, ho would not persevere.
The Berl of HARROWHY said he should not have risen,
degmating as he did discussion, but for the peculiar posi-
tion& which hr stood. Allusion hail been made, in the
mane of the discussion, to an expectation that before that
lime a committee of inquiry would have been moved for in
the House of Lords; and it was natural that those who had
entertained that expectation should look for explanation.
Now, the great difficulty which he (the Earl of Ilarrowby)
had found in carrying out that object arose from the discus-
sions within those walla. (Hear, hear.) Ile would tell
them plainly that they could not nice distinctions sepa-
rate things from their tendencies-Hear)—they could not
by disdaining certain things, separate a motion on the
emsduct of the Privy Council in the distribution of grants
from the opinions entertained and professed by the leaders
of this movement. That was the practical difficulty which
stood in his way. What did Mr. Denison tell them there ?
He said that those who accepted the public money on the
proposed terms were selling the catholic faith. (Cries of
"No, no," and " Yes, yes.")
Mr. DENISON rose to explain. He had not said what
the noble lord attributed to him. He had expressed no
wish to interfere with any individual ; all that he asked
was not to be interfered with himself.
The Earl of HARROWDY said the charge made was
that parties were selling their faith.
The Rev. 0. A. DENISON said ho had laid down, per-
haps not wisely, the general principle that they were not to
sell the catholic truth for gold. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of HARROWHY continued7Wben general

sects .. songless between dial parties, - __ _ very great
there was no appeal. _ ... _______
rival sects, than of the meetings of men having in view religion e morals
except to his bishop. In all other casts there was an ap- Touy
from the clergymen maxims were laid down on occasions like that it woe natu-
pe . to a court formed in the manner which he had de-posed that they were intended to have some pecu-
an object so sacred, and a purpose re holy as the
liar local application. ("Bear, hear," and cheers.) He
religious amities of the poorer classes of this country. "
appoint one arbitrator, who must be an inspector of schools,
(Loud cheers.) In feet, these discussions had created in the serih?d• The President of the Council wee empowered to recollected perfectly well as being with Mr. Denison within
and as such subject to the approbation of his Grace the
public mind a feeling of alarm—(cheers, and crime( " oh") those walls, what he would have the National Society do-
-an alarm In whisk he entirely sympathised, that if this
another arbitrator whunaiisetfbethuebethneeefieeceedweetoclergyman eAurchbishop; the bishop whether ho would have them refuse aid to these who ae-
imams was persevered in, the society would soon assume thecepted the government grant, and he rose up and replied
of being the rociety of a party—(loud cheers,
who must be a magistrate arida churchman. Was there any it was their statement that they alone represented the
="eire•f. ,a .. „,,, ~.. _my., than of wing,. .it mouse' and these two arbitrators were to nominate a third, and denunciatory language of the movers in this question—
reason to
_d fault with the constitution of this court of
bad been called, the of their church for
(memo H. am die
„el
and
practi.i
re.aito tpplai t
~.(t!ear, hear.) Mr. Denison said "Ym ;" but
tie sacred of the wineatinn of the people.
ben ..00duga.trr. would have great difficulty in proving what church and that what they proposed waa alone consonant
with church principles which constituted the main
of what bad bees dens M time meetings hue been to
ail" "'subject* toe the bishop irides difficulty in the fair and calm consideration of the subject.
creconbduefeotreoflasetauwmintiteonr
.anlelyindanisdpositionto
mad a feeling aimed is the seen try that the intention of
("Mr! appeal
lohinel colinfitdheerethwe
these gentllamem thee were now Swung this discussion uponentirely
reason there should be laid upon the bishops a
them use Mode& the laity of this land—(tremendous up-
edenwtvneahich—he whyto the hands of the clergy, that indisposition had since
ismr, egassiestie dims, and cries of "No, no.") This I - said it with all possible respeet—they were increased tenfold. Even if a committee were granted
nut the most competent persons
ethnics might be dissented from—(cheers)—but he could f , ~_, ._ , to discharge. (Laughter.) in the House of Lords, another must be moved for in the
only my Om such a fear did prevail. (Cheers, and cries of 'if " !Ire. passible i° re
y before the meeting a selection from Commons, and what chance of success was there in the pre-
" No, an") It was a matter of fact, which no one could the title deals drawn before these management clauses were sent state of parties ? (Hear, hear.) He heartily concurred
disputa. Ma afar did preveil that there was a lurking In- Proposed, they would find that it would amply justify the with the committee in deprecating these dissensions. He
' teatime In the pert of the clergy to exclude the laity from committee of council. (Cheers, and cries of "Oh !") There wished to heaven they could return to their former tria-
-1 all shams wren In the secular portion of the education of I were plenty of dads so informal as to be altogether invalid, uillity. If the question were put to a vote be should take
their been (Loud cries of "No' n°, ' and cheers') Si.. I &Jibe tionthhad
and he thought the ecimauttee of council, after the careful fijo part. (Cheers.)
gentlemen said "no ." and he was perfectly aware that the ' ra bestowed upou the matter, and with The Rev. 0. A. DENISON, in reply., said that though
rev. gentleman wbo'had moved the resolution had said that th
e 8"
1 "i
tttioffethe inspectors, would be able to provide the noble lord thought freedom desirable, he appeared
such was net ble intestion—(cheers)--but he (Sir J. Poking- I them w better clauses than any private person could de- anxious to place every obstacle in the way of their getting 1
(Cheers, crim of " Oh!" and hisses.)
ton) would askmagaber, in thin times of anxiety, and when I Ville' it. He would neither have the question discussed there nor
alarm prevailed itheasa the prsteetant members of their I The Most Rev. CHAIRMAN pointed out how much to parliament.
church-01Na ha mdse of -"Olt r)—people would not time was lost by the interruptions. The CHAIRMAN was then proceeding to put the vies-
be inclined mow so ink gs th• gmdeooko of motion. li Mr. ROBINS said there were two discordant elements in tion, when
than to erillebt priderthe esllammmlmas. (Cheers.) He , their society. If they could work together let them re- The Bishop of LONDON rose and said, be was perfectly
would ask she vilialm three hai sell bees during the past joice at it ; but if a portion of them would come there to aware that he was irregular in obtruding a single word on
winter one of du mast sesselmble oredepments of reLi- interrupt their annual meetings, and to impede their has- the meeting after the reply of the mover of the resolution.
te:11111 feeling that bad OM Olin these Ia this country ? monious eo-operation with the state, it was Blear that the He nee net going to say a single weird with regard to the
Cheese and cries of " thiselem") He would ask wile- departure of one side or the other was inevitable. (Loud merits either of the motion or of the amendment, but
_ r fishing ea the/ with de to the effectsof that cheers.) Let them remember that truth was above all thia he must say, that he earn, stir recommended the 1
demapemet, it was nseW that the laity of this country things. (Loud cheers.) The National Society had done a meeting to reject both. (Cheers.) He spoke as a member,
midi ethent to an is which there was even a vast work, and they could not deny it. All over the romp and not an inactive member, of the committee to whom by
elleallieene if their eaalmisa hem a fair share in the educa- try there were schools which would never have been erected the terms of the charter was confided the exclusive &d-
Oka if the away. (Load deem) There was another but for it; and he believed that it would best fulfil its high mioistration. of the funds of thesoiVety a'.d the direction
creates milt
[bet
a."ml " eke" 211.25 ezhibit a .yt
functions,a ndate.,:nerplish.dzrone.wiPrw-at ogerthe age, by
eoff ittliseerenietut:eLredwhase believeds
e srelr (kr:m*l7;7:l7:2f
fitimpobedionAlimilimilloireasata Gbalilswall"easimf♦dum who whose object in mutating the people sou the satireesas their his own feelings—when he said that if a triumphp were
aseggeges been bum amine* upon..
had ) own, the state. (Cheers.) Let, then. the committee .of afforded to either of the contending parties, the operations
There wee another wersist gels( en, salprovide the machinery fa lit ta- of the committee would be most gravely and seriously ena.
•