The Express.
London, England, 1848-04-14 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 14, 1848.

(A laugh.) When the Alien Bill was net before the house,
he made a speech on it,- now he had dwelt on other sub-
jects. (Hear, hear.) It waa • saying that it was good to
leave well alone ; and perhaps it was es well to leave alone
for fear of making it worse. He thought the Holy Father,
if as infallible in temporal as he claimed to be in spiritual
matteve, would not thank his noble friend for his defence.
He (Lord Brougham) believed the King of Sardinia to have
acted out of fear of his Geoueee subjects, and from a desire
to make himself king of the north of Italy. To the Holy
Father he ascribed no worse a motive than the v and per-
the
nicious desire to make himself popular. This had given
impetus; but his subsequent motive had been the basest
that could sway a ruler—the fear of the Roman populace.
If anything could draw down contempt on those entrusted
with temporal power, it was the fear of(Hear dotng
he thar.)eir.
duty, lest it might render them unpopular. ,
The history of Europe for half a century had shown the evil
effects of succumbing to a mob, and betraying a solemn duty
to popular opinion. He was sorry to accuse Pius IX. of
having acted thus. As to Charles Albert he did not doubt
his capacity for effecting that movement technically called a
retreat ; this he would doubtless effect very quickly, and get
out of the enemy's way. He mug either do this, or conquer
Radetzki before he could poison Lombardy. (Hear )
After the treaty of Vienna bad existed a quarter of a cen.
wry, and become the statute law of Europe with vegsrd.to
territory, it became the most imprudent thing to disturb it ;
but if without such disturbance the freedom of Italy could
be assured, no one would have a right to complain. It wee
the greatest mistake to suppose that the Austrians were not
iusufied in doing what they did at Ferrara. Heel the Pope,
instead of appealing to considerations which might increase
his popularity, merely insisted on the Austrians keeping
within the fortress, they must have done so; for Austria had
as perfect a right to that fortress as the Pope himself
had to his castle of St. Angelo. Thus much in
reply to what had !ellen from his noble friend op-
posite, who, he hoped, would have no difficulty
in obtaining absolution from the Holy Father for this extraor-
dinary defence of him. The noble lord then referred to
something which he had said on Monday evening in re-
ference to the French Provisional Government, and said that
he:had meant no disrespect whatever to M. De Lamartine
in
his remarks on the answer which he had given to the Irish
deputation.
Lord ORANVILLE said he must protest against the
opinion that the politics of the Pope had been influenced, at
home or abroad, by any base love of popularity. (Hear.)
Lord STANLEY said that while he gave his cordial and
hearty support to this bat, he must say the government had
not been over hasty in introducing the measure, nor did he
think it was likely to be so efficient as they desired. It being
admitted that the provisions of the registration act were net
and could not be strictly complied with, it was evident that
this bill could nutoperate efficiently. To this no answer had
been given by the noble lords opposite, who bad merely
alluded to vexatious Interference with private life. Why, the
bill itself was am interference—he bad almost said an unconsti-
tutional interference—with the ordinary law, with private ar-
rangements and comforts, and with the ordinary laws of hospi-
tality; but, as such, it was justified by the circumstances of the
time', by the necessity of providing for the safety of the em-
pire, and by the fact that there were, perhaps, 60,000
foreigners in this country, though the number was not ma-
terial—theiointhience and disposition was everything. These
were the grounds on which the noble lord opposite had de-
fended an interference, which was confessedly inefficient.
Either they ought to have interfered effectually, or to have been
restrained from doing so by the considerations he had cited.
This bill and another in the other house had been introduced
with the view of passing them before Easter; so that the
time was too short to discuss either of them fully. This
measure in pariicular demanded the most careful considera-
tion, and investigation of the existing law. It went to re-
cognise foreigeers by name, while the government confessed
that they had no means of knowing those names. This was
avowedly a temporary measure; but the one in the other
house was not au ; it was a measure for a great and perma-
nent alteration in the law of sedition and treason. With m-
ama to this latter measure, their lordships had a right to
complain that unless they would contest to pass the bill
hastily, they might he told they were responsible for the
consequences. Looking to what had passed here
and in the sister island, the government was highly cen-
surable for not having brought forward these important
measures until within a week of Easter. They might have
been certain of the support of large majorities in both
houses; they might even have relied on the cordial aid of
their political opponents to neutralise any opposition from
their political friends ; still they had delayed these measures
most unwisely. (Hear.) He was fully disposed to support
these measures, but he must complain of the delay. He
must complain of another matter. If the government of
Ireland, with the open declaration of the intentions, hopes,
and desires of a body (not a numerous one, certainly) in
that country—with the recommendation to the rondo to
arm themselves in resistance to the government, was content
to sit by and see all this go on unchecked, and even to
allow the manufacture of weaposa 'oefore their eyes, which
could be used for no legitimate purpose, he must condemn
such a course. (Hear, hear-) For the first time, not only
since the union, but for a much longer period, all restriction,
on the carrying of arms in Ireland had been removed by the
present government; and hence the difficulty in which they
were placed with regard to the measures necessary
in that country. lie regretted that no new powers were
asked for by government, and that even no efficient attpi
were taken for carrying out the provisions of the bill passed
before Christmas. The number of arms hitherto given up
was extremely small compared with the number that had
been manufactured. It there was to be an outbreak there,
it was inconceivable folly not to take steps for securing a
well-armed population in support of government and order,
and to disarm the disaffected, especially with the lull warn-
ing that bad beet. given. To the bill before the house he
uttered no oppoti.ion ; but be thought it his duty to call their
lordships' attention to a state of things so fraught with
evil, with the view to prevent the general arming that was
going on in Leland. (Hear.)
Lord DENMAN said the bill before the house had his
cordial support. Still be must express his regret that powers
so extensive and alarming were found necessary. the Se-
cretary of S:ate would be bound to act on any information
conveyed to him, from whatever quarter, and however
founded. The repeal of the Alien Bill in 182(1 had been
hailed with shouts of applause; arid it was most painful to
be compelled to entrust such dangerous powers to any go-
vernment. Be regretted that the noble lord oppo-
site (Smutty) had nought to divide opinion on
the conduct of the government at a time of
such imminent peril. (Hear, hear.) Ho thought the
government well entitled to their lordships' thanks for the
prompt steps they had recently taken, especially in the last
few days. (lieu, hear.) Their conduct with regard to
Ireland led him to the gratifying conclusion that they did
not deem any further powers necessary for the preservation
of the peace la that country. With regard to the bill now
before the other house, he hoped its provisions would be well
considered, and that their lordships would be able to give it
their undivided support. It was most important, in times of
order and quiet, to prepare for any disturbances that might
arise. As to the meeting on Kennington-common, he con-
sidered that the government were perfectly justified in the
measures which they took to put it down. Such assem•
blagee were highly dangerous, to none more than to those de-
luded persons who were led to suppose that their liberties
were invaded by the steps that were taken to preserve order.
(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said there appeared to
have been a mistake as to the object of this bill. It did not
at all relate to the system of passports ; but it effected that
which it proposed—namely, to give government the power of
excluding from the country individuals whose conduct might
render their presence here dangerous. ((tear, hear.)
The noble lord opposite (Stanley) thought the bill did not
go far enough; but it was most important, on such a subject
es this, that the government should strive to carry with them
the opinion of all claws ; and this would not have been the
case had a mere rigorous measure been proposed. He would
make the same remark with respect to the measures adopted
in Ireland; and he thought the noble lord (Stanley) had
gone nut of his way for the purpose of prematurely condemn-
ing the course of government. The events of the last few
days had, he hoped, shown that the attention of government
was fully called to the state of affairs. (Hear, hear.) On
Monday next he should he prepared to state what course
the government meant to adopt with regard to Ireland. He
could not make that statement now ; for he was not so much
in advance on these questions as the noble lure opposite
(Stanley). Excep ioual laws of this kind were necessarily
founded on the cireamatances of the moment, and cou.d not
be justified or condemned by precedents. A much more
seveie 1. w might be required at one time than at another ;
if ever one moment was strongly distinguished from others
by the peculiarity of its circumstances it was the present ;
and it was the part of a statesman not to look to the former
opinions of himself UT others, but to judge from existing
circumstances what measures were necessary. (Hear.)
The Earl of MALMESISURY said that he and his poll.
ticsd friends had supported this bill from the fairest and most
patriotic motives, and it was unfair to impute to them any
other. While willing to share the responsibility and odium
of the government, they had a right to see that the measure
was effective.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said a few words in reply,
which were inaudible in the gallery.
The Duke of RICHMOND wished the bill had been more
efficient; but he hoped it would answer the purpose desired.
lie supported the bill because he believed that prevention
wasbetter than cure. He could wish it were a more efficient
measure, but he would not, on that acc-unt, offer any oppo-
sition to it. On the contrary, looking to what took place in
other countries, be was not prepared factiously to oppose the
government, but to give them his feeble but hearty support
to enable them to carry on the affairs of the country.
Lord REDESDALE ca.led the attention of the noble
marquis to the loose way in which the provisions in the bill
respecting the service of warrants were drawn up.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, that when the bill
was committed would bs. the proper time for discussing the

objection.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Monday, and the standing orders suspended;
upon which their loruships adjourned, at 20 minutes before
8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tausepay, APRIL 13.
The Srzaiiiia took the chair at 4 o'clock.
--•-

_
PRIVATE BPSLNESS.
REPORT CONSIDERED.— Morse Mer New Gas Light Company
(additional capital and amendment) Bill.
THIRD READLNGS.--Oswestry Markets and Fairs ; Shrewsbury
Market ; Satlaranoe Wharfs (Southwark); Bills.

PUBLIC BUBINBILS.
PETITIONS.—By Mr. WILLCOX. from attorneys of Southampton,
against the certificate duty.—Capt. JONIFE, from Londonderry, playing
the house to par a bill to compel landlords to grant sites for free
churches in Scotland.—Sir G. STRICKLAND, from Pre6te4 againstcar.
fain parts of the health of Towns BilL—Mr. J. O'Cossiam., •everal
petons, from various parts of Ireland, in femur of the repeal of the
union and tenant-iight.—Mr. DCNCAN, from Dundee, against the
Diplomatic Relations with Rome Bill. LiscoLN, from Falkirk,
' praying for a till to compel laudkola to grant aims for tree churches

in Scotland—Yr. B. thicwrruati, from Rochdale, praying fare yard=
for YHVH, Williams, and Jonse.—Lord Monetwa, several pea. ,
time, In favour of the Polak Health P. wPAT-
oo.,
from Oxiird, in favour of the PlOcith Charter.—Mr.
110071, from @Warns of Leaden in favour of an extension of
the elective franehoe to every man poetising or renting a dwelling
who Is unataimed ty crime, and does not receive paroshial relieL
Mr. 0. A. Hawatroe, ten petitions against the system of national edu-
cation in Ireland.—Nir. 0. Tiwonreon four petitions from the Tower
Honshu seeing the Crown and Ocrve.nsnaink Smutty Coo-
son, from Barnsley to the MOH effect; also, lath:ions against the
Gams Laws and the sale of aviation Bundaya.—Lord CAHrLARILAI.II,
from Downpstriekt praying the house for the renewal of the Party
PTOOMMiOOO SILL—Loral RAIVIAID, from 'victim plum in Cork against
the system of national Mutation.—DO. BOWillllo, from Baton against
the Crown and Government Mood :y Bill, end praying foe the dis-
robing of minister. SOH An HltAllgol2 of the Mitrege.—Mr. &MUT.
kelp TiHrTAI7, in favour of the repeal of the union- —Mr.llthas, frooi
Kilmarnock against the Crown and Government Security dill.— Lord
kAILIVIOTOM, three petitions from London in favour of the Public
Health Bill.
FIRST READING.—Horsham Borough Bill.
NOTICE OF MOTION.-13LaIWIU-IlOtirellf.—MT. WILSON to-
morrow (this day), to lath the Secretary rd State for Foreign Affairs,
whether any ounimunintion bad been received from the i.anish go-
vernment on the suboct of the entrance of Prussian troops into I lol-
stein, with the object of soliciting the interference of tide goveminent
by mediation or otherwise, and whether any Intimation had been re-
ceived by this government of the expected biockade of the Elbe,
should the Germanic Ownfetleration continue their interference in the
affairs of Holstein ; and whether any and what steps bad born taken by
this government to secure en amicable set lenient of the existing die-
atebetween Holstein and gest.* and the government of Cnpen-
itOokti CATHOLIC Rower BILL.—Mr. Aimee, In committee on
this kilt, to move that Homan cathodal be eligible to the unite of
Lord Chancellor.
ROYAL COMMISSION.
Sir A. CLIFFORD appeared at the table, and summoned the
house to the House of Lords to hear the royal anent given,
by communion, to several bills,—for which see Lords' report.
MANUFACTURE OF PIHRS IN DUBLIN.

In answer to Mr. J. O'CoNnEht,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he was in a condition to
contradict the statement that Colonel Brown had employed
any individual to make pikes. He had received a letter
from Cul. Brown, in which he most positively denied
that he had ever given directions to Kirwan or any other
person to entice or induce any blacksmiths or other artificers
to manufacture pikes. But Col. Brown had employed Kirwan
and other peewee to go to blacksmiths' shops arid buy pikes
that were ready-made. He must say, that he thought the po
sitive contradiction of Colonel Brown, a gentleman of high
honour, was deserving of credence rather than a report in a
newspaper which had been taken in a police-office, which
must bo nremeasily liable to mistake. (Loud cries of " hear,
hear.")
Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask whether the govern.
ment would institute any inquiry with a view of protecting
the public from having such persons employed, in order to
draw innocent individuals into crime.
Sir W. SOMEItV ILLE said he did not know from what
the public was to be protected. if the hon. gentleman wanted
to know the opinion of the government on the subject, he •
would read to him a passage of the ai.swer of his Excellency
to Dr. Gray, in which he said ho could not too strongly ex-
press his abhorrer ce of the conduct of any man who should
seek to entrap others into the commission of crime, with a
view of delivering them nto the hands of justice. That was
the opinion of the Lord Lieutenant, and he would act up to I
it. (Hear, hear.)
THE CHARTIST PETITION.
Mr. THORN ELY hr .ught up the report of the committee
on public petitions with respect to the chartist petition, which
was read by the clerk at the table. It stated that :
The ODMMittee on public petitions, in conformity with the inntroe-
tiers of the house of the 16th day of November last, in all canes to
set forth the number of signatures to each petition," and also having
reguid to the power at the same time delegated to them "to report
their opinion and bb-ea vatious thereupon to the hours," have agreed
to the following special report
That, on the loth day of April instant, a petition for "universal
suffrage, At., from inhanitants of the British isles and subjects of the
British crown," was prevented to the house.
Your committee strongly feel the value of the right of petition;
considering the exercise of it so one of the moot Important privileges
of the subjects of the realm, and feel the necessity of preserving the
exercise of such pi ivilegc fr..m abuse.
And having also a due regard to the importance of the very numer-
ously signed petition, lorming the subject of the present report, they
feed bound to represent to the house, that in the matter of signatures
there has been, in their opinion, a prom abuse of that privilege.
The honourable member for Nottingham stated, on presenting the
petition i:. question to the house, that 5,706.000 signatures were
attached to it. Upon a most careful examination of the number of
signatures in the committee room, is which examination thirteen
his statemene clerks were engaged for upwards of seventeen hours,
with the person ordinarily employed in counting the signatures
appended to petite,as under the superintendence of the clerk of your
committee, the number of signatures hue been ascertained to he
1,975,49 G. It is further evident to your committee, that on numerous
consecutive sheets the Ingo at uresare in one and the same handwriting.
Your committee have also observed the naniee of thstinguished in-
dividuals attached to the petition who cannot be supposed to have
concurred in its prayer, and ow little to have subscribed it; amongst
such of cur the names id her Majesty in one plane, us Victoria lire,
April I ; the Duke of Wellington, E.G.; Sir Robert Peel, hr.
In addition to this species of übane, your com:aittee have observed
another equally in derogn ion of the just value • f petition., namely,
the insertion of name, which are obviously altogether fictitious, such
as Chew," "Pug Now," " butnose"
Then. are other words and phrases which, tlinugh written tn
form of signatures, awl included in the number reported, your coin.
mitt. of not harard offending the house, arid the digit nity ant
decency o their own prieenlingo, by reporting ; though, to he
added, that they are obviously signatures belonging tone human being.
I Considerable laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear," accom-
panied the conclusions of several of the paragraphs and sen-
tences of the report.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he had already been informed by
a member of the government, at 12 o'clock that day, that
this petition had been examined, and that only 1,:00,000
signatures were attached to it instead of the number he had
stated. (Hear, hear.) He hail never said—it would have
been impossible for him to say—that the practices alleged
had not been maned to, for he knew nothing of or about
them. He would remark, however, that there was an old
saying, " He who hides can find ;" and he should not be at
al: surprised to bear that the names and words said to have
been improperly introduced had been inscribed by persons
who intended that they should be made ate of in this way.
(Oh, oh.) lie should certainly move for a committee
to investigate the matter, for he had every reason
to believe that the number of petitioners did not, at all
events, fall much short of what he had represented. From
Manchester and Birmingham alone, be was credibly inform-
ed there had emanated a quarter of a million signa-
tures. Ile denied altogether that 17 clerks, or double
the number, could have counted even 1,000,000 signatures in
the time stated. If the house still doubted that the petition
had received the signatures of five million persons he would
undertake. in a very short time, to produce them a petition
signed t y double or treble the number. (Oh, oh.)
Mr. eIIORNELY, as chairman of the petitions com-
mittee, begged to say a few words. The petition in question
had been received by the committee with all the respect ob-
viously due to a popular petition numerously signed. (Hear,
hear.) And, speaking for himself, he might add, there were
points of the petition, such as the prayer for the ballot, in
which he entirely concurred. ((lean, hear.) The home was
aware that it was a duty of the committee to reportto the house
the number of signatures to each petition refereed to it.
With respect to the present petition, it had been deemed ne-
cessary to call in additional aid for this purpose, and he bad
no hesitation in expressing his conviction that the labours of
the clerks so employed had resulted in an accurate statement
of the real number of signatures appended to that petition.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Nottingham had on a
former night alluded to the weight of the petition : he (Mr.
Thornely) begged to inform the house that the petition had
that morning been weighed, and that its weight had been
ascertained to be 5 cwt. and three-quarters. (Hear, hear.)
' He believed he need say not a word in vindication of the
character of the committee over which he had the honour to
preside—(loud cheers)—and which, he felt assured, had only
done its duty in presenting this special report. (Renewed
cheering.)
Lord J. RUSSELL gave entire credit to the report of the
committee, and thought it well entitled to the thanks of the
house for the course it had pursued. (Hear, hear.) He
might remark that in investigating, as it had done, the
genuineness of these signatures, it could not, of course,
take into consideration, as the house might, the number of
idle persons and heeoless passers by, who, seeing the petition
at the corner of a street, put their names down, without
ever knowing what the petition was for. (Hear, bear.)
The hon. member for Nottingham had suggested that the
spurious and otherwise irregular signatures might be the
work of government spies. 'fhe hon member was so very
full of this idea of a spy system, that he wondered it had
never occurred to the hon. member to view the members of
the convention themselves as part of a government spy
system; seeing the good service they had done to the cause
of order, by the enormous contrast between their very fierce
denunciations at the convention, and their extremely peace-
able deportment when they came forth to make their so-
loudly trumpetted demonstretion. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY would take the
opportunity of coutroverting another monstrous misrepresen-
tation on the part of the followers of the hon. gentleman
opposite. The day after the meeting on Kennington-
common, a proclamation was agreed to at the convention,
setting forth that there had been present at the " glorious
manifestation" in question, a quarter of a million of persons.
Now, he was prepared distinctly to assert, that the entire
assemblage on Kennington-common, on Monday last, spec-
tators included, did not at any period exceed, at the very out-
side, 25,000. (Hear, hear). The real number, he believed,
to have been no more than 15,000 (hear, hear); but putting
it at 25,000, he would ask whether the country was to be
misled by the leaders of the convention, who, in these gross
misrepresentations, showed themselves false to their fellow-
subjects, as they were traitors to their Queen, and rebels to
their God 2 (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL begged to correct another misrepre-
sentation that had been pat forth on the subject. He had
been waited on by a numerous deputation of fellow-country-
men of his, prominently promoters of the repeal agitation
in this city, who had assured him that it was an utter false-
hood to state, as had been stated, that the Irish repeaters
generally, or as a body, had taken any part whatever in this
demonstration. (Hear, hear.) There were, indeed, as he
was informed, perhaps .1,000 Irish, men, women, and chit
&en, present on the occasion ; but he altogether repudiated
the allegation that the Irish repeaters in London lent their
unction, as a body, to any violent manifestation, Cr any dis-
turbance of the peace and good order of this country. (Cheers.)
Sir R. INGLIS said that really after this exposure the
netition was not worth the paper on which it was written.
There was a great cry against an alleged attack upon the
right to petition ; but the persona who were instru-
mental in procuring such signatures as those now
denounced were the real enemies to the right to
petition. He urged upon government the pro-
pnety of requiring, as heretofore, that all petitioners
should add their profession or trade, and their place of abode.
(Hear, hear.) The boo. baronet took occasion to express
his feeling that while parliament and the government should
not omit to give public thanks to the hundreds of thousands
of our countrymen who had so energetically stood forward
in support of peace and order, they should not omit to offer
up their silent thanks to that power who had so signally
preserved us in our recent danger, and without whose aid
the arm of Beak was as nought, remembering that unless

the Lord keep the city, the watchman %ninth but in
vain. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CRIPPS—Atter what the hon. member for Not-
tingham had said impugning the conduct of the com-
mittee, he must say a few words. He begged to affirm,
without fear of legitimate contradiction, that the com-
mittee lad taken every pains that there should be no
Walks as the subject- (Hoar, hear.) His own at-
tentions bed been directed to the matter from the very
moment when the hon. member made the audacious
b sta
fivte-
ment—Otter, hear)—that the petition wu signed y e
million' and a half of persons. Immediately agar the bowie
had received the petition, be went into the library, and
spent two hours and a half over that interesting document,
the Population Abstract of 1841, making calculations in
and a
con-
nexion with the alleged number of five millions
half petitioners, not aware at the time that the petition had
been signed by women. On investigating the matter, how-
ever, he bad ascertained that, of every 100,000 signatures,
8,200 were those of women. (Hear. hear.) The hors. member ,
had said that the petition weighed 5 tons, whereas in pcint of !
fact, it only weighed 6 cwt. (Hear, hear.) A petition,
weighing 6 tons, would scarcely have come, as this did, in
three crazy phis. He did not wish to throw ridicule on the
petition, but he did wish to throw ridicule and obloquy on
the hon. gentleman. (Cheer.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR rose to order. He had stated in the
outset—(Order, order.)
The SPEAKER said the hon. member must postpone any
explanation until after the hon. gentleman in posstasion of
the house had sat down.
Mr. CRIPPS would repeat the observation that he sought
to throw ridicule and obloquy on the hon. gentleman—
(hear, hear)—and would say that if any hon. member of
that bouts laid himself open to a charge which should
deprive him of a title to credence, that nen. member ought
to be denounced to the house—(hear, hear)—and he
(Mr. Cripps), for one, would say that he should never
believe the ho. member again—(hear, hear)—and he
hoped the poor creatures whom he had so shamefully deluded
would new see, in its proper light, the character of the man
they had to deal with. (Hear, hear.) Were these things
to be tolerated while parties—he would not say immediately
connected with the hon. gentleman—(ers)—but who
availed themselves of the opportunities be placed in their
way—had utterly ruined, by their robberies, ten honest
tradesmen at and near Camberwell? (Loud cheers.) This
petition teemed with obscenity, ribaldry, and blasphemy,
and there were words affixed to it that the lowest strumpet
in the streets would be ashamed of. (Hear.) Upon one of
the sheets were written the words " we could not get paid
for any more to-clay." (Hear, bear.) Had he been aware
of the nature of the signatures attached to it, he would have
objected to the petition being received at the time it was
presented. What was it to get 5,000,000 names to a peti-
tion ? They could get any number, definite or indefinite, if
they chose to adopt such a course. lie hoped the house
would not cast such a censure upon the Committee of
Petitions as to appoint another committee to inquire into
the subject. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said an explanation was required on
three points; on two points relating to the petition, he
should explain in that house ; on a third point, relating to
himself, he should have explanation elsewhere. In the first
place, he attributed no censure to the cemmittee ; al he had
said was, that twice 17 clerks cos Id not count 1,l 900,000
names in the time stated. In the second place, he did not
consider himself rponsible for what might have been
written in the way of signatures to the petition. (Oh, oh.)
lie could not say what any of the sheets contained, for he
had not seen them till he brought them into the house. (Oh,
oh.) Ile considered that with this explanation of his views
he hod relieved himself, as far as the house was concerned,
from the imputation that he was not entitled to credence.
(Oh, oh.) The lion member then left the house.
Mr. A. SMITH said he was present at Keneingtoncommon
on Monday, from first to last, and he could state most posi-
tively that never was there at any time on the common more
than 11,000 persons. The whole area of the common could
not po sib)), contain more than 90,000 persons; and at no
period of the meeting was more than one-fourth of that epee
occupied. (Hear, hear.) The pi rsons composing the pro-
cession did not number more than 8,000. (Hsu, hear.)
Col. SIIITHORP, amid much laughter, vehemently
denied that he had appended his name to the petition. The
signature there purporting to be his was an impudent and
rascally ,forgery. No one who knew him would suppose
that he would ever disgrace his family or himself by mix-
ing up with any such damned humbug. (Great laughter.)
Mr. HUME extremely regretted the highly personal cha-
racter of the discussion (Hear, hear.) lie thought that
the hon. member for Cirencester had taken a very improper
course in the remarks he had made upon the subj. et of the
petition, however gross ax imposition it might be, as indeed
it seemed to be. (Hear, hear.) Ile thought that the dig-
nity of the house would have been much better preserved if
notice had been given of bringing the subject regularly before
the house. It was the rule of the house that every member
should be responsible for the petitions he might
present. He always considered himself so, and never
presented a petition without full examination.
(Hear, hear.) And he certainly considered, therefore,
that the hon. member for Nottingham was not justified in
shielding himself from responsibility by alleging his igno-
fence of the circumstances of the petition he had presented ;
but still the bon. member for Cirencester was decidedly con-
travening the dignity of the house in stating that one of its
members—whatever the fact might lie—was unworthy of
credence. (Hear, hear.'
Mr. It. YORKE differed from the hon. member for
Montrose. He thought the cause of truth was under great
obligation to the member for Cirencester. (Hear, hear.)
It was true he had used strong language, but he thought he
was justified in doing so. (Hear, hear.) He had noel°
statements with respect to the hon. member for Nottingham
which the hon. member had of course denied.
Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to order. He thought that
such assertions ought not to be made with respect to hon.
members when they were not present.
Mr. It. YORKE said that the hon. member for Notting-
ham's absence was his own affair. The assertion of truth was
the first great duty of that house. (Hear.)
Mr. B. COCHRANE wished to know from the noble lord
at the head of the government whether he tho .ght, after the
exposure that had been made that evening, it would be just
to waste the whole of the evening to-morrow in discussing
this petition (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that having stated sonic
days ago that it would he impossible to give Monday to the
comideration of the chartist petition, end having proposed
that its consideration should be proceeded with on Friday, he
certainly did not consider himself at lib.rty to depart from
that arrangement. (Hear.)
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON observed that the hon. member
for Nottingham had said he had three points to explain, two
of which he had explained there, and the other he said he
would explain in another place. (Hear, hear.) The boo.
member for Nottingham had since left the house, a fact to
which, considering the personal tone which the dimussion
lad taken between the hon. gentleman and another hon.
member still in his place, lie (Mr. Lustiington) thought that
the attention of the Speaker should be directed ; so that, if
it were deemed necessary, the authority of the chair should
prevent any hostile proceedings between the parties out of
doors. (Oh, oh.);
Mr. DISRAELI said it would be exceedingly ridiculous
if, as the result of a conversation about the very innocent
meeting at Kennington-common, a more serious meeting
should take place elsewhere. If such a result were
apprehended, he thought it most desirable that
the Speaker should interfere. (Hear, hear.) If one
member made a statement in the house which ano-
ther member knew or believed to be • misrepresenta-
tion, and of mischievous tendency, it was clearly open to
the latter to bring the matter under the consideration of
the house calmly and deliberately. He thought, therefore,
that the hon. member for Cirencester had done welt to *-
press his view of this subject upon the house, but he must at
the same time express his feeling that the hon. gentleman's
zeal had given somewhat too strong a tone to his expree-
'ions. (Hear, hear.) It might, therefore, be welt ter the
Speaker to interpose his authority.
Sir G. GREY said that he had not himself heard the par-
ticular personality to which references were made, and he
conceived, therefore, that the expression, declaratory of one
hon. member's disbelief of the word of another hon. member,
bad also escaped the ear of the right hon. gentleman in the
chair, or the right hon. gentleman would probably have in-
terfered at the time. It would, clearly, be quite ridiculous
for an expression, escaping an hon. member in the earnest-
ness of his public zeal, to involve two members of that house
in conflict elsewhere. (Hear, near.)
Mr. It. PALMER had heard the hon. member for Not-
tingham say, that besides the two points he explained to the
house, there was a third affecting himself personally on
which he should have explanation elsewhere ; and from the
tone in which the hon. member spoke, and from the manner
in which he bad left the house immediately afterwards, he
(Mr. Palmer) certainly considered that there was occasion
for the interference of the chair.
Lori J. RUSSELL—The hon. member had stated that
he did not mean to be offensive in the sense in which his ex-
pressions had been taken, and of course it was impossible to
doubt his assertion. He therefore begged to move that the
hon. member for Nottingham be ordered to attend in his
place forthwith.
The SPEAKER said that if what fell front the hon. mem-
ber for Nottingham produced the same effect on the hon.
member for Cirencester as on the house it could not have
been considered to carry any personal reflection with it.
(Laughter.) He hoped the hon. member would bear in mind
that the house always placed the greatest possible reliance on
what fell front any hon. member in his place in that house,
and, consequently, that the greatest possible caution was
necessary in ascertaining the accuracy of what statements
were made there. The honourable member for Not.
was certainly responsible that the petition
di treontain anything that was disrespectful to the house,
and that the signatures were those of proper persons. The
hon. member might have been imposed on with respect to
some of the names, but not, it he had taken proper care, to
the eztent that was apparent. The hon. member for Ciren-
cester had certainly denied the statement of the hon. member
for Nottingham with some warmth, but he had not heard
the hon. member go beyond the usual limits of parliamentary
language. The hon. member, indeed, had assured the house
that such was net his intention, and therefore the noble lord
was quite right in making the motion which he had dose.
CRIPPS said that be could not deny having used the
expressions adverted to with great warmth ; and with equal
sincerity he might add, he did not intend to offer any insult
to the hon. member for Nottingham, but merely toassert that
he did not place any confidence in his statement. He had
no wish to evade the responsibility which one gentleman in-
curred towards another by his expressions, but he must
observe that more than one hon. member had been heard by
him to say the same thing respecting the petition.
Lord CASTLEREAGH urged the hon. member for
Cirencester to say something more satisfactory to the house,
and offer a more sufficient explanation than he had done of
his language. The house ought to be careful not to imitate
the example of foreign legislatures in the use of violent or
uncourteous language.