The Express.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 21, 1851.

ducing this bill, I listened to him with admiration, and
with that respect which his tali its always command; and
is he proceeded, occupying such high ground, and laying
his foundations so deep, I certainly trembled for the result,
and shuddered as I imagine,' what was to follow the great
oration. I said to myself (roaterAr aaimit crrleatiMer ire')
how is this to end—is he about to propose the
repeal of the act of emancipation ? Well, the speech
was a great speech ; the measure is comparatively small,
Much disappointment ensued, anger was excited; and not
many hours had elapsed before the Attorney-General rose
and Atchluously end, aroun d to magnify the measure, and
to show that it was neither tolerant nor harmless, that it
did strike at synodical action, and that if it did not altoge-
ther destroy, it did at all events tend to intercept, the
power of granting bequests and beneficial interests m sue-
cession to the Roman catholic prt lacy. In short, the Attor-
ney-General made an elaborate effort to demon-
strate that it was generally a most formidable bill.
After this, too much being proved, the government became
horrified at the spectre they themselves had raised; they
saw the consequences of their creation, and they fit.d. This,
then, is the dilemma : impotence on your part is disgraceful ;
and vigour, in my opinion, is dongeruus. I say den-
gemus, distinctly; I can ill dimemltle it. I think that
danger, as it relates to Ireland, is the danger of civil war.
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and" No, no.") I cannot re- I
tract theiwords ; ands that an empty threat ? Laok bank to
1829. But, it is said, the feelings of the people
of England have been outraged ; and the language
used by the rope and by his servants has Teen'
i
offensive to English ndependence. I will not here follow
the hon. member for the city of Dublin (Mr. J. Reynolds)
into ally artistic comparison of the phrases used by the
bishops of the Roman catholic church, with the bishops of
the Anglican church. Assuredly the complaint as to the
language used is somewhat superfluous. It is as if this were
to happen—a parable somewhat apposite labourer ac-
cidentally jostles me in the highway. I instantaneously
turn round and knock him down. I knock his hat
off and trample it nntler foot. I roll it in the gut-
ter. I beaputter him with mud. I set the boys on
to hoot him and to pelt him ; and, out of breath, with
anger and with exertion, I lastly call on the police, and
give him in charge for the offenee he has committed against
me. We have had acrimonious language here to-night
ith respect to the Roman catholic church, and hon.
gentlemen who rise and express themselves in the heat of
debate, ntly have their excuses. But the prelates of the
English church have used language of which great com-
plaint has been made, deliberately in addressing their
respective clergy. I think they ought to remem-
ber that that religion which they so denounce
is the religion, after all, of a great majority of Christen-
dom. Eminent prelates ought, at least, not to forget that
it is the religion which tempered the genius of tunclon,
which warmed the eloquence of Massillon, which touched
with tire the tongue of Bosauet, wail which inspired the
tolerant psis of Faecal. (('heers.) Now, as to the sub-
stance of the bill. I look first to the names on the
back of it ; and ant I better aotistied with what
1 find hare? What is the first name I we ? The
name of )tuns-11. (Hear, hear.) Is this the Russell
chosen by the City of Loudon as the champion of religious
liberty? (Cheers and laughter.) The Russell, whom
name will go down to posterity as identified with the re-
peal of the Test and Cm ?oration Act, and who, with well-
proved principles and still nobly daring, is even now
striving to unmet the last fetter of persecution which still
bangs upon the Jews? (Cheers.) What is the next?
The name of Grey. Who is he (Laughter and cheers.)
Is this the nephew of that patriotic nobleman who %licit-
heed the ambition of a life, and spent the flower of his
youth in the defence of the great principles of
civil and nligious liberty, more especially in the asser-
tion of the elaims of the Roman catholics ? (Inuit cheers.)
The right hon. gentleman is like him—like hint in his elo-
quence, like hint in his suavity, like him, I might add, in
his brilliance ; and sadly do I regret to tee his name at the
back of this bill. (Hear.) The Milne, too, of Russell is
there—the invariable advocate of civil and religious liberty.
(Iliac.) Besides this bill is nut well formed. It has been
botched. (Great cheering.) And there is a reason for
that. My right hon. friends on that bench opposite would I
not be a urthy of the name and character of the friends of
civil and religious liberty if they were adepts in framing
penal laws— (loud cheer.)--and it shows their want
of personal si.ill in this class of legislation ; and
God forbid they should ever become expert and
dexterous in such a craft. (Ilettewc•l cheers.) lily
noble friend at the ho ad of the government in a late
speech referred to his framer 011ie., friends, and comps-
treuts—among them to tirattam—thot noble spirit fled to
j • with Fox, Canning, Willserforee, and 1 ask my noble
friend, it in his conscience lie really believes that one of
those men, who all tairdially agreed in the principle of
the Emancipation Act afterwards poised, would hove ap-
proved of this hill? (Great cheers.) And if my noble
hiend can my he thinks they would have so approved it,
then I appeal from the dead to the living. Would Pluuket
have vital for that bill? (Cheers.) Would Brougham
have toted for that bill? (Cheers renewed.) Doe,
Denman, I ask, approve of this bill ? (Cheers.) I would
he were here to answer that question. (Cheers.) Then
there is the great historian of the revolutionary period, a
man deeply imbued with protestant principles—l ask,
would Macauluy appruse of this bill? I heat tried it by
the evidence of the detail and the tieing. My noble friend
says that English protestants are faithful and sincere, and
he says he dep-nds upon the warm attachment of the vast
majority of the people of this country to the
asa-
,l church of England. Ile believes that
attachment to be from the heart— that there
may be • movement on the surface, hut that
there is a deep strong under-current of affection ever flow-
ing beneath. He believes that their religion is written
upon their hearts' con!. But, if that be so, then there is
no need or occasion in England for this bill—(hear, hear)
—and nothing in Ireland to toll for or justify it. (Rear,
hear.) I feel such confidence in the wisdom of parliament,
that 1 hope confidently this hill will neser 'MSS into • law.
The right hon. laironet roncluthal his speech amidst loud
and probe:gad cheers from all sides of the home.
Lord J. ItCstsELL then rose, and was n'eeived with re-
peated tires of cheering, which lasted for several moments.
The noble lord, wht n his 'wive could be heard, began, in a
low tone expressing emotion, thus :—Sir, I hope the house
will indulge me with their attention while I make some ob-
servations in defence of the present bill—(cheering, and
answering cheers)—and in defence of the general principle
width is contained iu the bill ; for, however this hill may
be described as insiviticant—however it may he described
by the one side or the min r, commending or blaming ; and
whatever the provisieus eel the bill—it may Ise, when you
examine the detai:s, you would say, here is some great
principle insole ed--sonte question upon ninth it behoves
the Commomt of England delilxrately to pronounce. (Cheers.)
That question is in my view no less than this. Front three
lean since the restoration of Louis XVIII., the court of
Rome has endeavoured to revive partizans--(lieur)--has
attempted to revive its dominion—(cheer.)—and striven to
restore its supeentacy—,rheers)—a supremacy that hod
I been fur ever abandoned. (Cheers.) These circum-
stances indicated a position to be regarded with
anxiety, but not to he treated with contra .t.
More especially since the democratic revolution which
took place in the beginning of the year ISIS,
lual Rome been se eking fur smite place or plank by which
she might forward Came ,levigns which, if sumo—rut, would
be the Nine of the liberties of every country in Europe.
Look at that change which hex been adverted to by my look.
friend the member for Oxford, and by my noble 'friend the
Secretary fur Foreign Albano, which luts taken place of Lite
in Austria, awl you will then see a smahnot and instance of
the abandonment of eccurities which toad beenwisety frame d
—a change of policy in a mate which takes upon itself to be
indefeasible—you will see a surrender to the church of
Rome of that which had better have been retained,
and that one who bears un elevated name, and who un that
occasion proved that he cauld judge from Ids expericace
hod ta t a joined in this course, (its we understood the not
lint who was at this part of hi, speech indistinctly heard
If, after the progress of the feeling which has been est
lofted the :bout this country at the indignity which'
'S been le •

feels not germane to the present matter, but on this great
question of the continuance of our past polity, or the re-
versal of it, I could not refrain from submitting the views of
Uwe di.t in smelted rot it to the consideration of the home. Bet
In men: en nil. matter I think there lois been some eonfu-
AO7l Is t.. 4 n the theological mid legal, between the opi-
ritual awl temporal pert, of the question. There is
no dotal' but that the protestant portion of
the house think the recent act of the Pope
• preposterous assumption of power. (Hear, hear.) .
But the Pope hm at all time. claimed seiritnal jurisdiction
of e r all loptni .1 souls within these realms. e. Hear," and
a laugh.) That assumption bears date long prior to the
fneinntinn. And wes not withdrawn at the Reformation,
in f. -t, it at Ter had been abated, from the earliest time.
down to the ;invent moment. Now I eon....ive that in coo.
side ring tlie policy of permitting or ignoring this asserted
pew. r, the mule whether, by vicars mostolic as in Eng.
!anti, or by a regularly organised hierarchy as in Ireland,
wh. re it his tented for centuries in the full observance of
the canon law, is a question of secondary import Mee, and
that the real question is, are you prepared ter del with the
power it..: f ? (Ilea.) Our forefathers were wiser, and until
I knew to the contrary I shall believe that you are
wis r, than to seek to uproot the. Roman catholic religion.
(Cheers from the Irish member..) If you wish to take that
course ~'u may, but if you do, away with such • bill ma
this, (11, er, be: You may return to the bkrel-stained
code of Einabeth, which has already signally failed, and
which in my time was by the almost coronetn cement of
men in SO:house, who agreed in nething else, pronounced
to be adisgrare to th. country, andtotally inefficaciou• fur the
IntepaSe for which it was made. (11... a, hear.) But with
regard to the sonfusien between the temporal and spiritual
tiews of the question. I ant of opi • that from the
earliest time, there ha. been very great skill in framing the
statute law of this country, no as to wake a strong
distinction between the spiritual and temporal power
of the Pope. The statutes of proviso and pee-
munire wire not framed in denial of the sues. leacy of
the l'ope, hut in distinct recognition of that supremacy.
What have those statutes done ? Tie y bare coal to the
Pope, " You shall exercise spiritual tower w ithout inter-
ruption or r. straint a. far as it goes, but we must restrain,
you with nett r: nee to the temporal power, especially as it
affects the t. neoralities attached to bishoprics, and the civil
sleets of your spirittial excommunicetiou." (Hear, hear.)
No attetupt was ever made to deny, a.. an incideut of the
spirital power, the right of the Pope to appoint bishops., nor
was then any denial of the spiritual effiets of ezeonununi-
ration in this country. But the stutut. s most particularly
say to the Tope, " If yen appoint or trait-lett bohops with-
out the consent of the crown, then the tempondithe of their
acts-hall not follow your appointment." (Hear.) And further,
without denying the spirituel effects of your excommunica-
tion, we tell you that our court. of Ito' Shall not be made
stiltsitliery to teeing civil effect to that eseummunieation."
(liter, hen.) The appointment ..f bishops is an incident
of they' t smin•niory of the l'ope ; snot the use of ter-
ritorial divieions and titles to give effect to the appointment
of bishop., es an inevitithle and necessary consequence.
(° Ileac, hear," from the Irish members.) The statute of
Richard 11. went to confine within narrow limits this spiri-
tual power, unit left the utmost latitude to the crown and
the court, of law to exercise plenary powers over tem-
poralities and civil rights. The statute of Richard
nest rematkal•le statute, and it is not • dead
l.tte r tin n to the present day. It was framed,
too, in Boman retholic times—when the Pope
in the pit Intel', of his power, end the parliament
was r otipood mainly of men who acknowledged his spi-
ritual juriolictinn. It was then that the statute of premu-
pin. was I stall. (lion, hem.) In the time of Henry
the Eighth, Wolsey was indicteel under that sbitote before
the Star rhamlsto ; but even since the Itefunnation it has
Wit 114 ell a dead letter. In Ireland, in the reign of James
the First, in Leine, a vicar apostolic, cxercining
poser in l'l.ter, was indicted under the statute of
Hilliard, and was ~evicted. Will the house allow me
h. shortly tort ter to the language used by the Solicitor-
tiCll,l4l, the tither night, on thin questiau ? We have nut
yet heard the elate tttt of the Attoriele knees!, but the,So-
licitor-Cent rill distinctly put this question, has the
Rowan lroutf, by the VAIN, he lies taken in pane-
l:, • tots realm of England into mot ince% and dice
eras, and establishing an organised hierarchy fir
the gore ennimit thereof, and establishing rides for
the exercise of the jurisdiction of these artlibinhops and
hishoto, thee, in iitvesled the prerogative of the crown, and
outraged the iidepentlenee of the country. And further,
I ask have theta subjects of her Majesty who have aided
this organieition and abetted this establishment, departed
in any shape fr en the undivided allegeutee they owe to
their sovereign, have they vitiated the law of the land, or
infringed en the spirit of the constitution." If they hue:
truck ,1 of the prerogatives of the enlon, viulatedehe lib. r-
iles of the country, or touched the regality of this realm of
England, thus I nay that the statutes of la.:hard would un-
u
stionahly apply, and WO new laws are necessary.
Ikar, hear.) If your sovereign is attacked you
se a law to which you may appeal and bring
the offending putties before a jury ; but if ruu seek to
put down directly or inehreetly the spiritual supremacy'
of the Pope over menders of the Roman catholic com-
munity iu Loglaiel, th. it soli will have embarked
in a (vertu, touted. (" Ileare• from the Irish sneuiltere) Vim
will re-midweek in that cohost a hi,'h di.eranel England by
shedding the precious blend of Sir Thonme More-.a contest
which for ..•itturies ha. disturb. d ruined
sad tw..ooht shone and Ilisfteael, liennt that Unhappy land.
h•• r The essential part of the papal supremo., is
the right of appeinting bishops with spiritual jurisdiction.
That is a right which the l' p' never conceded to any
Roman catholic sovereign; and the division of the country
into slistri. ts for the more perfect exerri.e of that spiritual
lorioliethist les always teen co-extmisive ith the right
steelf, and both the clone law soil the' euinmon law of Eng-
land have resestistel the right by stiietly limiting its
intent. W.• hare reeently become sery lunch enamoured of
• Waroapereolie, which are directly influenced and 11:n-rted
ltaate. Now obs,•rve the mis lirt retie% of your anxiety.
ur,• jealous of the theist influent, of u spiritual power
which is identited with the supntuacy of a bereign power,
and, as a net... emir comequence, pint should wish to remove
the Rom in catboat• prehat,o of this ...unary from under the
direst iulluenee of the Pope. New the vicare-apeetelic hold
directly from the rime, ate the creatures of leis will, mut
"%hied to all his caprices. Vest hoe also a horror ..f the
canon leer. Why, the Pope has Iran ed a law fur the serial
use of the virareapintolic in this country, partly founded on
the canon law, and partly on the will anal vlerwore of the
If that be objectionable Or uppnesive,
where thee the appeal lie front the virus apostolic ? Tu
the Pepe in person, who in these caw. is not hound by the
nentuen law, hut may do whatever hi. will or caprice die-
(ll-ae, hear.) Contrast that state of things with the
rein.'n of the regular hierarchy in lrclend. There the
Pope cut seethes no such power. The people of Ireland
ate taw 41. grey further removed from his infloetwe than
tie it 1:."m in reheat fellowssuhjects in this country.
(lit ar.) And now with is eAt- to h
..mt...phtraity
the bill. The Pope, in the very year of the rt volution. in llen,
diridel Eitel:end into four dietriets, and Afterwards added
Sitar more. lt,vides, the very act which extended the Relief
Act inutemidated the sery thing that lin reeentlybeen don-
by the rope. It said, e You shall not appoint to any
lees at pnseent held by ore 'stout prelates," and the into S-
isk toncionim i• that everything .Iw' was left open. (liter.)
But li se we sieves desired that the system of sicaret
sh ul.l ee.Ne, and that a regular hierarchy should
lie
establish* d? What ttede place in Isl 2 ? In that year,
when the l'ops. was l. r the demi,nien of the great
enemy of the tountry. Natoteon. the British toverninent re-
quired that its Item in Catll.,lie subject. should be emancipated
by the Pope, and Sir John Cot Ili ,p was emetryed to
prop. e that i‘•41.4 apoetelic al II no longer cart, and
that a r.. .guised hierarchy should be totabliehed,
beer.) taut for a reason, ilium whirls I need nut now
expo iat bet which may not he veer favourable to the people
of l'emlaniehe Pope absolutely refu;celto appoint a hierarchy
in EttelnTil such as had all along existed in Ireland.
(•• liter, hear," and a laugh.) As to the eaten, law, if li
say Roman catholic should feel himself aggrieved by
the operation of that law. he tan at once withdraw
himsell from it. intluence. (Hear, hear.) The ninon law
Is not recognised by the common law of England, and only
incitlently w ith referent,. to trusts in courts of equity. I
do no: profess to be deeply skilled in such matters, hut I
am told that the insatiable course in courts of equity
is to inquire whither the canon law trenches on
the policy of our law.--does it videte any statute ? Is it at
lIII6IIIICC with any statute or with the established rules of
equity ? If it vitilate any of those cuuditions then away
with it. (liver, hear.) But if not, then is it neogniscil
sl) to a mitigated proving the will of It nstator.
(liege) lam not aware that any evil has sprung from it.
use in Ireland, to deter us from permitting the iutroduction
into England. To return to this question of territorial di. is
siou•--have we any authorities on the subject which eun-
sideN them harmless ? I should like to bring under the
notice of the hintse what lean been said by a most distils-
gui.ht d peeler of the established church, at a time when
malty addresses coutaiued expressions to be regretted.
I held in my hand the address of the Bishop
of Norwich to the clergy of his diocese. (blear.)
What dies he say on the subject, anti I quote the authority
of the Right Rev. Prelate with pleasure, for I have the
high. st respect for his reasoning. and tor the truth, fair-
n.•-s, and moderation of his sentiments. (Hear, hear.) In
dist ussing this question of papal aggression, the Right Rev.
Prelate Aaes The moisture, indeed—apart from the man-
ner in which it has been attempted. front the language
which has been held officially and unotfieially regarding it,
and from certain well known principles of Humanism which
give a signitiearicy to what has bon done and written—the
measure itself is nothing of which we have any right to
complain, consistently with our toleration of Itonsanion."
'• led," he sane " an episcopel church is not tolerated if we
interfere with its liberty to appoint bishop., to determine
their number and rank, sad to bestow on them any
title. provided those titles infringe on no existing rights. We
naturally protest, in amazement, however. rather than in
'magnetism, et • functionary of Rome writing from
Home offietally, iu tenni such as these At prevent, and
till such time as the Holy See shall think fit otherwise to l
provide, we govern and el-tall continue to govern the counties
of Middlesex, Hertford, and Essex, as ordinary tbereof,sead
those of Surrey, Sussex, Kent, Berkshire, and Hampshire,
with the islands atioexed, as administrator, with ordinary
junedietion e hut some territorial division is necessary
for every communion of Christians, and (in an episcopal
ehuveh) the term for a bishop's district is diocese.' "
This authority, as it appears to me, is wholly inconsistent
witb the principle of the present bill. (Applause.) This ,
is the opinion of • high chinch authority, but have we no
high lay authority on the subject. I turn from the Bishop
of Norwich to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, cod has the
lord-Lieutenant of Ireland not recognised these territorial
divisions—and that, ton, on a meat remarkable occasion?
I blame not Lord Clarendon for this, fur I think his conduct
was quite consistent with his duty and the policy trans.
netted to Lim by his predecessor—a policy which he has
most honourably and faithfully meted out. Byre is a

letter addressed by the Loed-Lieutenant of Ir.aalicl to
Bishop Nicholson, to he by him communicated to the Pope.
See what are the terme in width Lord Clarendon here
speaks of the territorial division. Lord Clarendon submit-
ted t a Bishop Nicholson certain new regulaticms with ree-ard
to the management of the Queen's Colleges in 'rebind, tube
laid before the l'ope, in the hope of removing the papal
of jec;inns to those colleges. Wli it are the provisions Lord
Clan ndon made with the view of obtaining on behalf of
those colleges the influence of the Roman catholic bier-
itchy of Ireland 3—•• The list of visitors is not yet settled,
but I can have no hesitation in stating that it will inelude
the catholic arclibiehop of the province and bishop of the
di'e L've in which the college is situated. As I entertain a
profound veneration for the character of the Pope, and int-
plie itly rely upon his upright judgment, It is with
pleasure that I now ask your grace to submit these
statutes to the consideration of his Holiness, be-
lieving, ea I do, that they.. may be advantageously com-
pared with those of any nadir institution in Europe."
'fere, then, is a complete recognition by Lord Clarendon
of these territorial divisions. (a 'll. , rs.) Isere we have the
authority of a biehop of the cataldished chug h anal of a
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. But, sir, have I na other
authority? What sa a the prime minister of Enaland on
the subject ? (Cheers. In the mouth of August, 'sin, this ,
letter written by the 111 rd-Lieutenant of Ireland to Bishop
Nicholson was Made matter of question in the house by a
notice bmught forward by my hon. friend the member fur
Oxford University (Sir 11. Inglis). Now it is right
I should remind the house that at that time a ques-
thin had arisen whether there was not an intention
at Rome to appoint Dr. Wiseman to the archbishopric of
Westminster, and a question was asked of my noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) with regard to it. My noble friend on
that occasion denied distinctly all knowledge of any such
intention, and he added that if his assent should be asked 1
to any such arrangement, he shnuld not lie prepared to give
it; but with reference to the terrieeial division of Englund
for crelethietical remotes in tonne tion with the Roman
catholic religion, the opinion which I myself enter-
tain on the subject is In much more forcibly stated
by my noble friend than I could hope to state
it, that I will read my noble friend's words.
The noble lord love, with regard to spiritual authority:
" Whatever control is to he obtained over the spiritual
authority of the l'ope can only he obtained be agreement
for that end. You must either give certain ads antages to
the Roman catholic reliaion, end addain from the Popo cer-
tain other advantages in return, among which you must
stipulate that the Pope shall not create any dioceses in
England without the consent 4.i. the Queen; or, on the
other hand, you must say tlaet A , !I will have nothing to
du with arrangements of that kind ; that you will not con-
sent in any way to give any authority to the Roman
catholic religion in Eneland. But then you must
leave the spiritual authority of the Pope entirely
unfettered. You cannot hind the Pope a spiritual
influence, unless you have same agreement. For
ray own part, I am not disposal to think that it would be
for the advantage of this country, or that it would be agree-
able to the Roman catholic., that we should have an agree-
ment with the Pope, hr which their religious arrangements
should be regulated. Rut, although you may prevent any
spiritual authority from being ca, retied by the Pope by law,
yet there is no provision—no law--my bon. friend could
frame, that would deprive the Pope of that influence
which is merely exercised over the mind, or that would
preclude him from giving advice to those who chum*
to attend to such advice. It is quite obvious that you can-
not by any means and authority whatever prevent the
Polo from comniunkating with the eatholies of this
country. You must try to prevent such communication
from being open, but I think it would he %cry foolish if
you took any mean, of great vigour and energy for that
purpose. lf, however, such erannaunieation is not opt n it.
will he secret. Su long as there are Roman catholic+ in
the country, and so long as they acknowledge the Pope as
the head of their church, you cannot prevent his lousing
spiritual influence over those who belong to that com-
munion." (Cheers.) These, too are my opinions, but es-
premed in terms far more cline, and in lauguage fir
more forcible, than any I could hope to eominaeol,
rind I subscribe to every wag 1 of them. (Hear, hear.)
But, sir, a somewhat old coincidence occurred shortly after-
ward's. Within five days of the period when the notate lord
expressed these opinions, the Atturney-Oeni nil had to dis-
cuss the some question on a measure which had come lwfine
the house. 'flit 11.41. menthe! for Lambeth (Mr. l'eareon)
had oposed to limit the proposed diplomatic telations
with Rome, he inserting the words " touching and concern-
ing international relations." The Solicitor- Oen, nal opposed
the introduction of thew word, on the gn,und that "if
those' aunts were inwited in the bill, in eases where there
was the least ingredient of a spiritual character it would be
injurious. Questions of a mixed character might arise,
though in the reaalt they were of a temporal
Snature, an
the
d
in such no interferenceinterferencecould take place. uppose.
Pope introduced any regulation as to the Roman catholic.
of Canada, this qualifieation would prevent any bitterer- 1
ence." Where, then, is the assault on the rye duty—eiliere
is the attack on the rights and liberties of the subject—where
the attack on the pre rierativi* of royalty? (Cheem.) "As
the law now stand., the Pope may divide the country
into bishopric. unil arclibishopries—(laughter)— and if
the amendmi at va-en. Agnelli to he might do so still; but if
we had free diplomatic relations with him, th • British go-
vernaivut might iuterfeae to prevent .mica a division."
(Cherie and laughter.) I have already told you it is doubt-
ful whether lay imputation at !oust, the first clause does not
curry fully into effect what in terms is enacted by the
emirate' and third claim.. There is high legal authority for
saying that it does. (Hear, hear.) I have already put it to
yon that if that be so the government must a ithdraw their
bill. But take it that it is not so—is this a question in re-
lation to its effect upon the social condition of Ireland
that can be left in doubt? (lam) cheers from
the Irish members.) I have permission to read to 1
the house a letter of Archbishop Murray's, which I
will do. See if ,vuu shoo chance to make a nib,-
1, take what may lie the effect on the whole social frame-work
of Irish society, so Ear ns seven-eighths of the whole
rrillailtii:," 4anre' hem3le'',l7l-il4. ? Is-il.—Our reclilurbthhoils) Murry says
copal. Our sacred ministry could not be earned on
without priest+, we mild have no priests without
' bishops, and un hielu,ps but through the authority
of the l'ope. It is his business not only to name
our bishops, but to point out the limits within which
this juri.diction is to be eireunmeriMel. The portion
or surface which contains the catholic flock within
those limit+ may Ise called a district, or a see, or a bishopric,
and the Mobs Wail appointed to ordain priests, and to carry
on the other necessary (auctions, of the ministry- therein,
may be a vicar-apostolic or a bishop in ordinary, with this
difference, that the former is removable at pleasure, the
latter is permanent, and therefore one step removed bleu
the immediate act inn of papal influence. Except us Arch-
bishop of Dublin I could nut ordain one of any own priests.
I could nut give a parish, I could not communicate with
the Pope, I coedit nut correspond with foreigu
bidlope, I could not give letters climiesearv, or
onlination letters, or letters testimonial. I have laid my
hand on an obi letter sal onlinution, which was not for-
warded to the bulls Maid for whom it was intended. It
was written in 182 n. Were 1 to issue that letter now I
should he liable to a tine of 1001. 'Matta in many in-
stances we were oblinal to act in elioilnalience to this un-
just law, we knew that government was nut disposed to
act harshly towanls us. The spirit which has suggested
the impose' law .4111L* to lie very differ% nt. From a first
view of clause 2 it might he inferred that were a priest to
depend oil such a document as I encloses, he must appear
before a court of law as a layman; a marriage whioli
he had performed might, on that ground, be declared
invalid ; and a discontentea husleand might take to lim-
pid( another wife without the imputation of bigamy."
This is in regard to clause
2. and although it is true that
the goes:raiment hese consented to witladruw clause 2, and'
understand that pneainition is to he resisted ; but whether
the I lan, *tend or not, if my view he correct, all the evil
conseepieneve paint"' out by Archbishop Murray will result
even if you pass the bill in its amended form. (Ilear, hear.)
The Solicitor-G. nem" now declares that there has been au
inrasion of the prerogative of the crown and liberty of the
subject. (Dear, hear.) I answer if what has been
done is illegal why do you not appeal to the court.
(Th of law ? (Cheers.) With respect to the division
of the country into districts, we have seen for
• long time mot arrangements made for ordaining
priests and e ten ising spirituel jeriedictiou by vitals mo.-
tulle in this country, and by a hiciarehy in Ireland. (Dear,
hear.) I am not aware that these. territorial division+
confer any temit.ral power. Something be said vaguely
about emit, ‘'s"Ye are told that there it great danger
from synods, and that, if we are wise, the synodical action
of the prelacy will be put an end to. Now, allow me to
ask, are sou quite clear, here, as to your interference?
Since the legal and constitutional right of public meeting
exists in fire at Britain and Ireland, show me how you can
present imbatantiar:y the meeting of the Idesurchy being or-
ganised, coneidering the spiritual character and tower which
would always surround such an assembly, with all the effect
of intineneiug, to the utmost tameable extent, the conduct of
those who are ntembers of that church? (Loud cries of
" hear, hear.") My noble friend complained of the Synod
of Vomits, that it had interfered with the question of land-
lord and tenant, and that it had condemned the Irish col-
' legm. I ft 'Mt that this was so. Obviously no person
here can feei a more lively intrest in the success
of these college.; than I du. But I say—and this
was .uggested in the admirable speech of my honour-
able and learned friend the menilwr for Plonouth,
(Mr. Roundel! Palmer)—a speech which I can hut 'follow—
that if there is to be any anembling of the hierarchy of
Ireland, and they are to discuss any subject whatever, I
can tee none more germane to their 'functions, none more
legitimately falling within their sunervisien, than this
question—is the people of Ireland to he. educated in Owes
colleges? (('heere.) But, then, the Roman catholic pre-
lacy ;end the Rontan cat'.nlic clergy intervene in regard to
eufejects of a temporal nature. Well, answering this,
I may ley I thihe I remember. during the Anti-Coru
law agitation, a meeting at Manchester of the dissent-
ing clergy—(low,' cheers)—convened from every part of
the United Kingdom. They came to revolutions at this
meeting which were very important resolutions. They
were return:ll to this convention from their respective dis-
trict• a. this- delegates a the views of their respective con-
gregation-; and their object was, in which they succeeded,
to um the it utmost influence against the existing laws in
reganl to the food of the people. (Much cheering.) Then I
may that if clergymen are to meet, I am not prepared
to legislate for the kittrpeoe of imposing restrictions on their
meeting. I am satisfied that, if you are once embarked in
this course, you will be led step by step, whatever the hon.
and learned member for the city of Oxford (Mr. P. Wood)
may contend to the contrary, until too have been induced
to destroy not only religiouslibertv hart civil liberty al-n.
(Cheers.) Now, I have treated this hill, hitherto, as a real
and formidable measure. But it has been ebanged, and it
stAnds much tuutilatt 41 from its original proportion", Whenmy
noble friend at the header the government rose, in intro-

tical—this bebop Is our religion, to our faith? Could
the bon. and learned member (Mr. Palmer) be satisfied
with any such assertion as this in reference to what is
spiritual and what is temporal in the Roman catholic
church? Supposing they said, education is a limiter which
touches our spiritual concerns, and education le ing
therefore spiritual, the state cannot interfere between
it and the ltoman catholic clergy ? Suppose these
men in Ireland ray that nntioual education is
dangerous to their faith, and that any person belong-
ing either to the clergy or the laity who may assist
in carrying that system into effect shall be excommunicated
and deprived of the rites of religion ? And suppose they
should go one step further, and say with r. mad to the
police and the military, that the persons—(loud cries of
" Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear,")—that the persons con-
nected with their faith cannot remain in the police and the
military. ("Oh, oh," and '"fhat would not he done.") I
hear' an hon. gentleman me, " Oh," admitting by that,
that it is s matter which should not be allowed. That
is exactly what I expected. (Hear, hear.) Because
it shows Mk' that you cannot rest satisfied with the assertion
of the Roman catholic clergy the such a matter is spiritual
or reeks: tetical, but that you will judge for yourselves whe-
ther it is or is not. I hear another honourable member
say, "'that would not he dune." Well, I don't know. I
have read somewhat of history, and having read not only
of history which honourable gentlemen think it wrong to'
refer to in times of dispute between Roman eatholies and pro-
testant., lint of history of mint recent times, I have
formal the opinion that the ace of Rome is rite of
the worst securities. (Hear, hear.) It sous but yester-
day that I was reading—cursorily reading .-a cones-
pendenee which took place in ISM or 1817 between the
secretary of state of the King of Naples and the Pope. The
secretary of the King of Naples said, " I may be wrong iu
refusing you the halfpenny given by the King of Naples to
the Pope ; I may be wrong in refusing certain lands you
claim; but you cannot be jw tified in menacing me with
any spiritual sort of punishment or visitation because I
have refused to obey you in temporal matters." So the Pope
thought that these were matters of spiritual jurisdictiou,
and if we trust to papal authority in these mat-
ters, we shall hear very soon that spiritual juris-
diction is extended over England in a manner of which we
can have no conception. (Hear, hear.) Well, every one has
' said, and my right him. fnend who spoke last (Sir J. Gra-
ham) has said among the rest, in reference to what has
lately is in said and dour, that the language of the " pas-
total" was arrogunt in the extreme, and highly offensive to
I the people of this country. (Hear, hear.) That is an ad-
mission to a certain extent ; but the question is, whether it
is an admission to the extent required by the nation. (Hear,
hear.) I must beg the attention of my right hon. friend
(Sir J. Graham), who, no doubt, has studied this question a
good deal, but who has mistaken some very material
points. I must call his attention to what is really the cha-
meter of this rescript of the Pope, and I beg the indulgence
of the house while I read an extract from an article of Dr.
Wiseman in the " Dublin Review," which has already
been rehired to in the course of this debate The apos-
tolic see," it is said, "charges those who call themselves
the Arelibishope and Bishops of the church established
in England and Ireland, with being intruders by favour
of the civil power, into the sees of those realms; inasmuch
as they and their preiletessore took possession thereof,
iu spife emit to the detriment of the patriarchal rights
of that see, which from the canons, and by immemorial
untom, bad been exercised in the noraination or appro-
bation of all metroolitans and bishops. Pp to the time
of llsnry VIII. this right was perfectly acquiesced in,
when by his statute 'Si henry VIII., c. 20, toe nomina-
tion was reserved by letters missive to the King, all the
authority of the apostolic arc being set aside. . . . •
Such subversion of the rights long holden and admitted of
this upostolic are; and sae', ussumption of a power never
admitted in any part of the church, were clear infringe-
ments of the canons, and constitute an act of usurpation and
intrusion which is null and void in all its consequences."
Now, sir, that is au assertion to this extent, not noticing at
present historical evil*, I remark that in this statement we
have an assertion that the act of Henry the Eighth is " null
and void in all its consequence.," that the Archbishops of
Canterbory and York, told the Bishops of Loudon, and
Winchester, and others, no longer exist, the ap-
pointnacute being gone. The rescript of the Peqse declares,
that "all general or special enactments notwithstanding,
whether apostolic or betted in synodical, provincial, or uni-
vasal councils; notwithstanding also all rights und privi-
leges of the ancient sees of England and of the missions,
and of the apostolic vicariates, subsequently there esta-
I Wished, and of all churches whatsoever, we expressly
annul and repeal." That is no doubt a declaration to the
effect that our present archbishop and bishops do nut exist.
This rescript is a substitution of the urchbiehopric of West-
minster, and the bishopric of Southwark and others, for
those of our protestant church, which are declared to be
null and void, and entirely abrogated and
(Hear) Now, Ido ask this house, does this fairly come
within the scope of a foreign sovereign? My right hon.'
friend (Sir J. Graham) answers the question at first as if he
had heen taught by Be. Wiseman hintaelf—(laughter, and
" hear, hear ")—a,, if he had really been brought up at the
fret of his eminence—(eontinued laughter)--that the Pope
I hail no doubt the spiritual functions of the: appointment of
all hishopit and the di-, ision of all dioceses. I think it is
proved by various works, and by none more so
than that of Dr. Twiss, a work full of learning,
and stated with a great degree of temper, that the
eireumsenption of dioce.es must be eon-natal to by the
sovereign authorities, and that the appointment of bishops
is not a spiritual but a temporal mt. If that is the
caw., them 1 ask you to look at the nature of this aggres-
sion. It is, at the very emnmencement, an aasump • of
power over this realm of England, at variance with the
sovereignty of the crown, the rights of the clergy, stud the
indepeudence of the nation. (hear, hear.) Well, hon.
gentlemen ray, " Let us have a resolution on this subject—
' Ist us have one as strong cue you choose' and as
deb-bed as you choose. Let us say that the Pope had
wi right to assume such pouer—that he had no right
to interfere with either the temporal or spiritual authority
of the Queen as by law established." That might be done.
But I dun't know that it would be wise fur parliament to
come to a resolution which, when produced in a rutin of
justice, could be of no value. The Archbishop of West-
minster, or the Bishop of Birmingham, as the case might lie,
might appear in court, and, although such a declaration
were produced, it would be deemed utterly worth-
less by the presiding judge, !and he would, sitting
on the bench, pay' no attention to it. (Hear, hear.)
I cannot oasis, that course. The dignity of par-
liament would he compromised if you took such a course.
But, then, my right honourable friend (Sir James Gridnuo)
going to another extreme, says " if the regality has been
attacked and you hate gut the case of I,alor, why don't
you proceed actordiug to the ease of Lalor ?" Imw t say
that my right bun. friend hardly stated the ease against
Tailor as it actually occurred. Ile said that Lalor, who was
tempted to envoi:telt on the temporal prerogatives of the
rotten, was for that indicted and convicted I must after that
statement claim the indulgence of the honae while I read
a hat the charge was. It was an indictment framd in
,terms of which this is the substance; "that he had re-
' c.ivad a bull or brief, purehasisl nr pros ared from the
court of Rome, touching the king's clown and dignity,
and interfering with the royal preneastive ; coubining a
commission from the pope for dividing the kingdom
of heland into dioeemes. Second, that by that bull
he was constituted vicar-general to the sec of Rome, and
tte,k upon himself the style: and title thereof. Third, that
he exercised tcelesiatitied jurisdiction by instituting persona
to holy oriels, by dispensations in cases matrimonial, and
by ether things appertaining "—to what ?—" to episeo-
ptl jurisdiction within the ditesese against the au-
thority of our sovereign lord the king, his crown and
dignity." Clem this indictment Lalor, :.tier u consultution
of half an hour by the jury, was found guilty andsentenced.
It was UpOU the act of Richard 11. he was procseded
against, for assuming epieenpal jurisdiction, not for any-
thing attcmpt,d immediately or directly pima the
temporal power of the crown, but for exercising epis-
copal jurisdiction contrary to the rights that upper-
tam and belong to and are vested in the crown. (Hear.)
r Richard IL, after the commission

I intimated before parliament met, and especially in that . ofEees of which they were capable as freely as mob:stand;
letters° often referred to in the course of these debates-- ' and I am persuaded that these things, under the present
the letter which I wrote to the Bishop of Durham. (Hear, ' administration, have been fully carried out. We passed last
hear.) Now, I am ready to abide by all the ccentiments : year an act with respect to the franchise of Ireland : ail I from
contained in that letter. (Loud and continued cheers.) As 1 the time I came into office, so far as aay patron:we of lathe
it has been so often referred to by others, 1 may be per I has bsen concerned, I have always bean anxious that Ito-
miffed, pe•rhaps, to refer toit myself. (Laughter.) The term- ' man catholics should have any share of that jeurtmage to
sentaion made of it has been, indeed, gristly erroneous— i which their abilities were entitled. Now, I think tisis is a
representing that in that letter I did not look to ' great security ; hut it is a great security, upon thi. emelt-
public opitnon but to some stringent law on this j lion, that these Roman catholics eon as freely actaret 'saline
question. Now, sir, what I said was this, after ;to their opinions as protestants could do under saailar eit-
deseribiug the character of the aggression:—. Even if it ' cumstanet s. (Hear, hear.) If you find that the E11....111
shall appear that the ministers and servants of the Pope in 1 esthetics have been as free as tit' Michael O'Lcghiin and
this country have nut transgressed the law, I feel persuaded . Sir J. ltedington have been, if you find they have been
that we are strung enough to repel any outward attacks. ' loyal to the crown—it you nut' that they have men IniIIIIIIUM
The liberty of protertantism has been enjoyed too lung in to do justice equally to all classes of her Majesty's sal teen,
England to allow of any successful attempt to in a —uretoubtcelly that rule of hew should prevail. aka if you
foreign yoke upon our minds and consciences. No foreign wire to find that these Papal maxims claimed the suare-
prince or potentate will be permitted to fasten his fetters matey in Ireland, and that any Itonran catholic who ear in
upon a nation which has so lung and so nobly viudicated its office was threatened by the priest if he did his
right to freedom of oeiuian, civil, political, and religious." duty freely, it would oblige us to muse thou-
(Haar, hear.) Now, sir, that was it clear appeal, net to the Roman catholics to leave the service of the entail,
powers of law, either as they exist, or to any future law to and to du that which would be a practical nullity, ramd that
be enacted—it was an appeal to the liberty of 'mantel, which the act of IS• contemplated. Vcil, my right hon.
civil and religious, which this country has so long en- friend Lug a eery. simple remedy for this. lie says, if a
1 joyed, and which I considered was the great antidote Roman catholic 14 threatened with a spiritual cenotre. he
,to that aggressien (hear, hear), that sought to fasten on our may have tlte Roman catholic communion. (Hear, hear.)
' cor.sciences a yoke Irian which we had so lung bean freed. But it is very possible his conscience utav nut alluer 1.:o to
I (Cheers.) But, with regard to any measure' either under do that. Ile miry think that the priests have a power over
1 the existing law, or a haw to be enacted when •••rlistitient hint, as that unfortunate man, Ceuta Santa 'Cosa, did. His
' met, I think that when I read the following won's from the faith in his religion might be unchecked; and, if that Is
' letter, you will wee that I was cautious :—" Upon this sub- the case. it is for the benerit of the human catholic. taent-
jtet, then, I will only say "that the present state of the law selves that you should encourage the spiritual usettraarcy
shall be carefully examined, and the propriety of adopting of title country, and that you should net encou.,me these
any proceedings with reference to the recent assumptions of resuniptions of authority. Well, toy right hare. Iris nil es-
power deliberately considered." (Hear, hear.) It dues felted to men of eminent..., to some who hove deem a• •, ..ad
' nut even say that any proceeding hour been taken j it says to some who are alive, who fought manfully surd en eta.-
1 that the propriety of adopting any preceedings shall be den- fully. in favour of Roman catholic liberttes. 1 wee a
berately considered. (Hear, hear.) And if, at the meeting lunnalt follower of those men, end not taking pert as tire
of parliament, the government had declared that they did debates no that subject in this house, I canstantly 'eaglet
I not think it nee:vary to introduce any bill, or to institute their battles in the country, oust 111/W4:Maly gave my, sot,
11 any pr. eccutions —a 'tether that %amid be wise or on that side iii thar hoes:. I repent ma of any
uuwise, justifiable or uujuatifiable —it would be single tote I than mice. I rejoiee that I was is :my aay
its complete consistency with the letter. ((tear, 'war.) And iustrutnental in procuring reheious liberty to ti. Roman
yet it has been natreeented that this measure falls tar short catholic.. but, if I *Apnea now that you ilia not take
of what I had declared previous to the meeting of p.arlht- those securities which Mr. Grattan said you meld reel:.
went. (Cheers.) Now, sir, I say still, that your 311,11111/%- if I fat' some doubt, wine suspicion, some apron he mai., of
(sauce—that your main security--consists to the liberty of Cie fatnre proceedings of the coma of 'lone, 1 ..a seat
opinion, in the liberty of person, in the political freedom, without tas authority of frienas of freedom who her, l's-
which Tau use so long enjoyed, and which you will main- pressed similar fear* and similar appaleraions. i at, not
twin. .(C nutted elmecre,) But it does not follow from know that I need be ashamed of latter s ewe-
that, that it may not be necessary for a legislative measure what more liberal than Milton and 'make ; I sae ran
to preserve the supremacy of the crown, and the inch- know time I need be ashamed of :laving son.. wlmt
landence of the realm. It doe, not follow that, tellies,. of the temper of Ilamptlen :Intl of l' em, anti of those
your greater security is your civil and religious frectlem, great men who asserted the Internee of this country Mu this
therefore it should he unnecesetry to frame some enact- house against the tyranny of Charles I. Ido not know
ment on this subject. (Hear, hear.) It always appeared to that Ireed be ashamed of feelina somewhat of the.as t..ulas
me front the first that, if any enactuteut was to be prop•twel, and aperchensions which influenced the calm and solar mime
it 11110111,1 be one of the mildest form, and that it would tic of Lan' Somers. These men were friends of liberty. utatty
far better to fall short of what was justified than to exceed of them writers in favour of liberty of ell•ll,C:eret• :red of
in any way that which was uecessary to meet the aggrmsiamt. ttaeration far humid the opittione of their age ; 1... t tiler
(Hear, hear.) I mu, alter all 1 base heard, and atter the felt, hotel ter they. Well, lli,lllll,e'l to admit. that the
proposals of sending a fleet to Civita Vecchia, and various Roman catholic faith might be held All se. ll , stay
tele rpropaeals—l annaill of the Sante opinion, that it is other faith, conscientiouttly and c.nniatently wits the
far better that your measure should fall short of the nor, s- coijoyisit nt of power ; they felt that there was something
mattes of the rate than that it should exceed in thestringency iii the character of the was of 'tome which need, ,very
of its enactments, (Hear and eheera) Now, with respect friend of liberty jealous of its encroachments tall'i tearful
to one assertion, however, which has. been mutat relied eosta, of the establahment of its power. (Chian.) Sir, whet-
I must beg attention to what is a fart. Gentlemen wishing to ever I may have said with regard to particuler nuatsures
oppose this bill have repreanteel it us one of yersecutiou, that might be adopted, 1 have always maintaha a that I
and they say the first clause contains within itself the should be opposed to 'tomtit catholic Imps, macv. I am still
ell:taint:in at the lucent' and third—that pia S4rvin;„ the of that mind. (Cheer.) When I MI- that there :tseareay. of
second and third, or omitting the second and third, will the roman catholic body who feel that this aggression made
make no essential difference, for the area carries the amine without the currant of the Crown Ula agaitet ;he sill of
consequences. Now, without entering into a caws of law, the natioa, is an aggression upon the 'miasma. y et tiu•
upon which many gentlemen of the long robe breve already Crown and the independence of the :oaten—l sae ~.y. juus-
spoken, I will put this to you.) If the first clause is so very lousy is increased when I eta• that temp tr. While; 1 trust 1
persecuting a clause, hew comes it that for one-ana-twenty shall remain a friend of religious liberty, as I taut I hayes
years the Ituntau catholics of Ireland have been subject to eeer been—(loud cheers)—and as Ilmummu natio:ice al !ram
that clause—the ar, hear)--and that we have hardly IKWVI ought to admit —(renewed cheers' —thr frequen. have
niurasur about it—(hear, hear)—that the only /Aaressinn been the rebulia I have met with in the coarse
given was iu the year Hal by the Rumen catholic of popular eitathaas asaataa, I was, in favour „f
bishops, fist that was an eaprentian of acquiescence, the Itoman catholic claims—anxious lel I have
and that, so far from leaving the table of this home bean fur religious libertya I will not confound the caw...-
loaded with petitions against it, the Raman catholic clergy of religious liberty with the cause of tutimal ens aati:msi. et.
stud laity have Leen silently submitting to it? (Loud (Cheers.) Sir, I believe that the liberties of Eisele:al am'
cheers. ) For, observe what this MU 'llea is to say, that, the liberties of Europe will be promoted by ',teeing talc
not only the exieting SVCS but the dicweses themselves useasure. (Loud eluvial.)
shall les protected from this *agree...ion, mid that ltoman The debate was tken fllijOUVWel until the due.catholic
catholic clergymen may nut take their titles from any man The other enters of the day were then rapidly aaisaoseil
or place in the Unite; Kingtlona (Hear, hour.) But we of, and the house adjouneel at one o'clock.
knew that the Bataan catholic archbishops and bishops,
according to the enema institutions utder which they
lived, and in their intercourse with their clergy, rut it sea.
etated, have taken the titles of Arnaagb and Detain,
though they have not done is in public. Why,
then, they have been subjected to all the cow
et:quoin-a of penal law. (Hear, hear.) They have been
.urfering in Ireland all this perseention—they have
beam wounded in their conscieneta, attacked with a
spirit of bigotry, and they have been sulferiug all this tame
and yet for one and twenty years they have suffered all this
and nothing about it have we beard. (.' blear, hear," Mid
laughter.) Only coutreive a whole people sufiariug all tins
tsecution andyet saying 'welsh's; about it! (" Hear,
hhear," and continued laughter.) W ell, thus we show that
this bill is not at all events very oppret.sive. (Hear, hear.)
That questians may arise, with regard to the executiou of
this, Insl if it becomes law iu England, I comet doubt: I
belie-se that is very likely to be the case. But, my Lelia
is, that when the Roman catholies sec that pude. sent
has agreed to ibis enactment they will bow to the :Lethality
of parliament, and nut attempt the assumption of these
titles.. (Hear, hear.) But other questions may arise. I
will nut conceal from this house tiny more than I ensue:awl
before that you may not by this bill meet eve ry dauger yet
may have to encounter. (hear, hear.) Now, I have it not
in contestplatioa to frame any cede by which all the rela-
tions between the we of Rome and the crown of this vain-
try may be regulated. But this I say, that if that spirit
which you haves nen lately is nut check*. d
that if it is nut checked by the great display
of protestant and national feeling you have wen in
this country—that if it is not t•heckett by a siasplo and mild
trueetruent of parliumeut—if another aggression shall
take place—ii it is attempted, for instance, to de-
prive time pe-ek of Ireland altogether of the benefits
of mixed education—if it is attempted to deprive
parliament of its power in this respect, and if thew wha
eclat, the crowu are to be &acne.' by means of their em-
u:inlets, in their:religious courolatious—if they uttemet to
carry out a syetenr. of 'nixed causation which the Rowse'
catholies themselves asks-d fur but two years ago--('hear)--I
du nut deny that in such lAillt other measures may be nee.-
terry. (Loud cheers) And so likewise of similar aggreasioa.
(liter.) I differ altogether from nay right lion friend (Sir
J. Graham) when he says that this matter of educatien is
a mutter upon which the ltunaut catholic clergy may
proceed unchecked to any extremity they may clecea. 1
do nut think you would be right, I do not think you
would be justilled, having declared that )1111 meant the
uati,,nal education in Ireland to procced,—l do out tlsiak
you would be justified in answing spiritual weapons
to be employed for temporal purposes, iie such it 1.1.„1.
lice art to prevent the youth and children of Ircland
from acquiring secular kn.., !edge, because the Rosman
catholic clergy chose to call it •• godless " (Hear, hear.)
I remember saseaking to au excelleut mid mild bishop of the
Roman catholic churish, who underank the superintca-
deace of the lioman cathulin, of Loudon many years ago ;
and I recollect saying to him, with reference to a graa.t
of money from the courreit to the Itoman tali. s:'e
schaoh—" we shall ante your religious in••tructien
entirely. uninterfered with, and we shall 'tut in-
quire in what manner it is given." (liter, hear.)
Ills answer to me Was," I hest, IV) doela that you attend
to do WI, but I do net believe that you know the extent to
which we carry these Leona of religious instruction." Now
this, for example, he said, " the whole of civil history we
comprehend under the term of rs ligioue itestructiou,
and we should nut be waislied with any tart of the
de a or political history of England beteg taught
otherwise titan under. the m uperintendt nee of clergy of
our own persuasion." (Hear, hear.) There wins nothing
arrogant reheat that excellent man. It was merely a .tate-
.

PARLT.IMENT.tRY COMMIITZES --The cominittees
on the following have beta appointed to .it o.t the
lth in•t. :—ssrottish l•entral Railway, Mauchester l'arish
Ilighw“)4, Leicester NVitt:rworkt, Aberdeen l'ulilie Re-
cord'.

Zvi¢ evvreoo.

- - -
TO CORRESPCNI,ENTS.

. ....
A600..9000 -.to interrlvd kw "Tho I! • 'sr p Ter'
nut.,. 1. M: Ow init.*, 10, ISouverte•ttreet, by Two o'c thon
usy of pub.watiuo.

lIIOR WATER AT LON INJ,I BRI I/GE
Tur 1)4,-111otsia4. 4h. :tat 4lterrann, h. :Ate.
Toolotausf —Mums& Wt. . AMMO.. 5•. • 9 .

LONDON, FR IDA 1„11.4 Re H ::I.

--
THE Frcnch, also, it 14VeMS, have their 3iruft ~1'
and their Crit.EN, their Atchhishop 81.7!NEli and
their Bishop Pitatrarrs, and although no c test. of
strife or ad,atation troubles the:r toady intlithi ~ t Lim it,
still a firebrand bishop lilts up Ids voice to (..iw:l-
- and execrate his superior, and display to the
world the odious spectacle of political and rancorous
prelacy.
When the late Archbishop of limns, W oust Igo( ur
IYAF ME, wukslain on the burricudeof tin Fiadsiarg:-.:1.
Antoine, over which he was clambering to in ek i t o pnt a
stop to the effusion of blond. he 11114 sue, teach d by
M. tot: SIM/UR, we heileVe, his coadjutor. The thonii-
union of bishops in Frwie • rests with the s ovt reign
power of the state, which knows the pi..-sw;al dia-
-1 'neer of the French clergy. and does not t. &gate to
Rome the task of creating distorhanee is t..:w howl IT
1 waninuting ultramontaite andiniti-t fallic,:ii ugt tits to
the government and the appointment of ;'..- :'..cu..71.
clergy. A better choice vomit not have ••, ~t ue tuo
titan M. fitnont, who lots maintained the dignity of
I his position without giving. his illii11:11t1. In -•-- '
church portn, or, indeed, itit;:rfe7ing nt t.::
tr,ulded profit if 3 of the dev.
The principles of the Pnuich archbishop are. ~
deed, clearly developed in the intintkatt nt, or Atli... s,
which he mum! to iris elt-rgy in Jr-atiry le: :.
The olojeet of this otenos-oo• et was to wurn al
inch, dastics under his juriedictim to abst.,in serop e-
-1 '.otr ly from joining or mingling thetas( Ives up will',
any political party whitoso,ver. They were neither
to style themselves legitinoists nor imperinlists. Their
• duty was to respect the Ttrenuecots they foiled
estjhlished, "even throe whirl: sprang frua rs,vitia-
. thins, without intisiog inquiry of their o,igin or
their right." "'They were to take tar,' end labia
all Christians to the saeranwat.t. without solvertiw•
in any way to their political tTinior.‘" 'flre pris.7t
owtht on no account t 9 seek or !oo at Tit
r poi:tic/LI functions, such as those of deputy to
the National Assembly. Nor should they seek
• office at court or in the rohninistretion. Icy

b :;:~

-trough,. __ .
been offered, when a bill buss .._ brought befoie the house Now, by this donne of Richer.. ___, Rum ~. .-........_ -
by the government, ptofessiug to contain resistance to cgs of the offence, it is said, that " any person found to be went of what are tin opinion- and doctrines of tail eh nal '''' -
greasion, professing to maintain the assertion of the rupee- guilty shall be put out of the King's protection, cud have But I must say if that were carried to the (swot, tout ii: •
macy of the crown„ if that till is at once rejected their lands, tenements, sod bcr.ditanauts forfeited to our regard to civil Matters, in regard likewise to limners or tag
es o , f social hi, and shaLld forswear C. • digaitioa
their vows they " hall aband.r.d all the advt.:l-
-on the second reading without any char and deli- lord the King, and that process may be had against them physical science, nothing would be taught to the people of 1 and the aft:tip§ of the world." By such eendeet
berate consideration—if you (eel sympathy with the hr peemnaire, in derogation of the regality of our lord the Iceland except under the superiatcneance of the clergy ; ulone, said the An.lthishop, cut religton aureate the
friends of liberty, you must feel that ut addition king." Now', sir, it appears to me, that it is very possible nothing could he better fur the Itinnan Catholics them;
to all her former conquests, in addition to all her triumph 4, that some of ihese new bishops, thus nominated and ails selves than that the state should step
in and deal Katie.. in the cart-varying progress of mankiad.
the Court of home has again gained a conquest, and pointed by the Pope, may have done this year act of which my, that it will not permit that coatis,' of
4.1_
fortune and vicheatudes which nceamurily aefull por
achieved her rust grievous triumph, of conquering the helot was found guilty—that, in cobra of matrimonial li- education. (Hear, hem%) I believe that if what Mr. au it a view of the duties of a (la 'slion priest.
minds of the Howe of Commons. It has bee u senses and other matters appertaining to episcopal juraa Grattan predicted should in time fail, that there would he taken by the Archbishop uf l'al'is, has eltist mad
said in this house by Romily, Ponsunby, Brougham, diction, they may have used the powers for which these no such great bar and security again.st such tails as the to M. Clatusgi. DE CACSSEEtirI:4, Bishop efeltartit s,
Lord Althoip. lord Castlereagh, and Mr. Calming, and ley bishoprics were created. Would it be right, then, with spirit of the laity of the Roman eatholics themselves ; but highly unorthodox and even heretical. And rex...id-
olatry others aho rose afterwards to great distinction—you such penalties to have proceeded against Dr. Wise- this whole question is, as l consider it, not a question be- I ingly the worthy Bishop, like his brother of EXETER,
must have one of them. two things, domestic nomination of man, and to have endeavoured to convict him tween protestant and catholic. It is a question between , ao_ .___,,, ._ __. __
.... ~..,
t,
0.
1.0.
the bishops. or a r.to, and use it in the hands of the crown. on this statute ? (hear, hear-) 1 ask, if we the crown and the people of this country and the ce ut , Pena. no,: .P"'"7'.".' tn. utv:a.•, t n idea .I .
or, failing that, you a ill see the whole of theltumancatlialic bad done so, what would have become of that regard for Rnme ; hut in another respect it is a question as it re- 1 specting gm ernmcnis, tam set mg from ll tevolute.n,
Lll,Lansessetundieinng:E.hulmat ilsikainbadnihalon,lngtosogiert6ur
itinse.harluiet,,,
clergy ineurporatad with the we of Rome, and the Roman religious liberty which we are accused of being wanting in gat& the Roman catholic laity and as it regards the I appears to him little slur.: 0. an unnoisation of
cafficaie laity disccraorated from the people of England. (Hear, hear,) If we had sued, and obtained a conviction, attempt to impose the favourite ultrantontane doctrines o.
Recent events show the truth of Grattau's predictien. b' which Dr. Wiseman should have been deprived of all /tome upon the Roman catholic,. Now, I have olseerved
iltrshop, unlike his metropolitan, L'All stn no dini mum,
You have not domestic nomination, and you have an ag- his goods and chattels, and imprisoned during the plea- that gentlemen who have opposed this bill on the ground
gremion. You have that which did not exist in form. r cure of the crown, would there not he a feeling that we that no legislation whatever is required have entirely failed 1 _
~
times; instead of two very distinct bodies namely, were pushing to the utmost the force of these ancient in making this distinction—a distinction obvious and strike , between
cureand tdhuetypromfattliit:decti.lttem.ei,tl-7ale
that,
iaintdhe tithe:iirmulin-.
Roman catholics who were Roman catholic, ta religion, hut statutes, that we were using oh-oletc laws, which had not ing enough to every one who has read any part of the his- , teraxt in polities, except that these arc even mote tins
1.
(N)yir,,- ahauld not prelotts be srlt,snem ? The (!ouncil
who had no Tent ration, for the laipc, as • temporal been used for two centuries, to the oppression of the sub- tory of laurope or of religious controversy. My right hon.
power; and who hal, by the declaration of the Duke jeer, and would not the cry of the violation of reliious friend referred to Roam( t and other high authorities...
of Norfolk, Lord Be aumont, and Lord Camoys—(hear. liberty be ten times greater titan it is now ? (" Hear" and Why, many of these high Roman catholic authentic
hear)—who would se ',orate themselves from any pretension . cheers.) But, air, I then find that gentlemen who of modern tunes, like our ancestors, while they were Min
.r Try. nt, indeed, insists that: the -clergy shall re-
i tsertal' in the
dßisuittiachet mnlitilditerejAartehf:fahnegulet ofs atishrseitrolio7al
advanced in this country by the church of Rome, and who 1 hare spoken on this subject, and who admit that of strict and undoubtiug Roman catholic faith wen: at the
We to take tare of the cure of seals, ecclesiastics wit h
would not abet Muse prewnsions whatever they might be. some measure ought to lee taken, are very much same time the most spirited, the most independent, the
Let me then again repeat that this was the prediction of , divided in opinion as to what ought to have been most able, and the most constant en: nines of the tesurpu-
Ana yet I perceive that Inv- more leisure may trtl,e a lead in political affairs, and
Mr. Grattan, the mats to whom my right hon. friend oppo- I done, and state various courses which they think would tains of P
asopery. (Cheers.)
site refers. and riehrly refers, as the greatest authority have been batter than the present bill. Now, without going teatants ho now spi•ale on this subject do not
[that could be quoted in this house upon the subject now ! into all those suggeStions, lat mc submit one observation to take the assertions of a eh men as ISOSstler they . thus the church and the state may hild earls other a
' before it. If that he true, as he prcdietcsl, and that you !the house, Dere is a question, upon which there is hardly do not take the assertions of such men as Pas- muttud aid,att they did uuder XIA ..s:.s arid I.l..rim.ree.
' will have all the catholic clergy incorporated with the see a difference of opinion, with respect to the aggression itself cal—but they take all the assertions which come I It would be quite idle to odd anything by way of
'of Rome, and that the catholic laity will be diworpmated having been arrogant in the extreme. (Loud cries of" Hear, from the see of Rome,
"wit"' which in former comment to this exposition of the doctrines of the
from the people of England, it behoves us to see what evil bear.") There has been no alternative proposed to one days, and even in the present day, have been scouted by
we now encouraar, and whether we mold ever have course in • hich there has been a general agreement, or , the most able and most learned of the Roman eatholies, and • politi th 1' I .1, 4' -,-.11 by tFe Bishop
the 111:3111 et reeetira the consequences of that evil.' which many would say is vastly and clearly ,referable to ' they take all these amertions of Itoman catholic doctrine, of elhtnTleas. The prrla: s: as itot only an avowed
' Now, sir, I cannot botany that I have been greatly struck : the present hill. The course ri50,,,,,,ed by
.Lord Stanley was Roman catholic faith, Roman catholic discipline. I horror of the irpuldre, and is prepared to combat
by the various theories propounded to this home ou the I that youshouldhavearesolution,butlikewtsethutyou should think when we conic —us I am afraid we mast
subject of religious freedom. The hon. and learned mum- ' have inquiry with regard to future legislation, and he shows —to discuss these matters a great deal thither : declares lumself tquailv antme `:,i-tie to a ronetita-
tiny auth prineivlis in tl.e mind of his Sock, but ho
bcr for lavntouth (Mr. Itoundell Palmer), in a most able his belief that you arc not at preccut prepared to legislate that that distinction cannot fail to be made,
nini t trona m arctic, hosed on the
‘vs and the monarchy
e will of the people.
speech, his told this hour that if you have that rellaious upon this whole subject, by declaring that one year or per-however it may have bleu .obliterated fur a time, Ido ---m- Ile scouts the bonne of Or.te
in Mom you must allow those who chant it to take tech:- hap' two years must elapse before a sufficient measure , reel confident that, having passed the great act of Ina, the
siastical organisation—allow them to have that organisation ' could beprepared. Now, that is a course which, if Lord I great charter of the Catholics, that we shall see the spirit of ,of July. And nothing save the restoration of this
complete—mid that. therefore, you must permit uncentra- ; Stanley had been at the head of the government, though I 1 the laity evoked against them pretensions. (Hear, hear.) , legitimjat niece could at all sati..fy the political
dieted anything which belongs to the faith which these , might prefer my own course, I might have taken in defer- Sir, I have been always of opinion that it was not only for the
persons maintain. Now, sir, how far dues this manurial I race to the authority of the government. (Hear, bear.) benefit of the Romani Catholics', but fir the security of the • The
I ethics of the Archbishop of P Mrs are quite as
go ? Became the re-al question. which the hon. and learned , But, then, I repeat if there 14 one course, and that the I state, that the. concessions made in 1829 should be enacted by •
member (Mr. Palmer) aid not touch on, is, who is to decide I course of the government, and you have no other clear , act of parliament, but that they should be carried out sn ' 4 as his po'l`ies M -
abhonent to him of ell %Ell*: , . ut,
: religion of the Bishop of ClUtitZßEs.
what is ecclesiastical and what is spiritual in this I coure before you, is it not better, if we wish to do ass,- I spirit awl effect. For that purpose I thought that the seigneur Stlioun says in his ..:11.0u1t.0. ad, " \l'hoi a
matter ? Are the ltaman catholic', on the ground that . thing against this aggression and assumption—(hear, hear), . Roman catholic people of Ireland herald have a large Fran-, moral being executes volunt-al:v that law, which he
it belongs to their ecclesiastical arrangements to make ito agree in the course proposed, even if it should not be the . chise. I would have them on that it should be clear they has discerned by his reason, lie is in the path of
any assumption they please ? (Hear, hear.) Are they to ; best coupe, rather than reject this one in the hope that should have the power of choosing their own reresetaa-
pcot„.stint landlords. a : order, for his will is conformable to tiro Divine mind,
be allowed to claim any sway over this realm of Ems- I same other course will be submitted at some future time. tires out at the dictation of their
1
out the spirit of . and the exercise of his freedom. i... in accordance with
laud ? any suer..maty over the Queen of England? and (Ilear. hear.' Now, it has been said among other matters thought it was necessary likewise to carry
arc we to be aue.stlet with their saying this is metal:is- that that which is now proposed falls fur short of that' which that act that Roman catholica should bc chosen to civil the will of Goy." This is a cl.4ree cf tolerance and