The Express.
London, England, 1847-05-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—MONDAY, MAT 10.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at 5 o'clock.
THREATENING LETTERS.
_

Lord DENiAiimo;;dilte See;;l;e;firog of the bill to
amend the law relative to sending threatening letters for the
porpoise of extortion.
THE TOWNSHEND PEERAGE.

Lord BILYIJOHI4 introduced itar WelU.2d the act
passed three rears ago relative to the Toenshead peerage.
SCOTCH SCHOOLMASTERS.

The Earl of ROSEBEBY asked ifitusritb;duksopposite
(the Duke of liureleueb) intended to move for the re-ap-
pointment of the committee en the subject of Scotch school.
masters ?
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH said it was his intention to
do so.
SCOTCH BILLS.
_ _

In reply to a cordon from the Duke of Bucctsocn,
The Earl of MFNTO stated that it was the intention
tithe government to proceed with the Births, Deaths, and
Maniere (Scotland) Bill, sod the bill relative to the law of
entails.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
•

The Win then resolved licit into committee on this Dill.
On claim le being reed, the Earl of WICKLOW was
about to AWN, en onewidnient, of which he hod given notice,
when

Lord STANLEY asked if the government would=
to give power to the poor-kw eanustiesiowees naewsly
the boundaries of unlock but atm of eleetoad divisions ?

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said web a power
existed before, but he doubted the expediency of re-enact-
satlt.Earl of WICKLOW then moved that in the clause
the following words be inserted : " that it be lawful for the
oomminioners when they shall see fit to form iato separate
electoral divisions towns with a population of 3,000 or up-
wards." He complained of the injustice of making towns
support the paupers of the rorrouading districts.
After a few words from Lord Brougham, lord Monteagle,
sod Lord Campbell as to the wording of the clause,
Earl ORE] said that there could not be framed a more
eocuprehensiye clause, and that the amendment of his
noble friend would isdd nothing to the powers of the
poor-law 00012.11iSILOWITI.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE mid that if the amend-
tarot of the noble earl had any effect at all, it would be to
restrict the powers of the comma loners.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said that he would smart *
amendment, believing that the commissioners amid net
exercise the powers given them by the clause as it at pout
stood.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE opposed *it amenth
meat, on the ground that he did not see why the pthelpia
ebould be applied to towns containing 3,000 inhabits*,
more than to pariabes or town-lands containing the lam
amount of people. The amendment was thee put and asp-
tired.
Clauses 21, 22, 23, were then agreed to, the last-mentioned
with some verbal alterations.
. .

On 71,71;e1;14, which hid to the school for the
North and South Dublin Uniens, being propceed,
Lord MONI EAGLE suggested that the poor-law cam-
missionen should have the power to make an union of unions
for the purposes of education, and to establish houses for
education, in which the children may be provided for, and
the adamant of industry should be superadded to the original
mama et alhemeitei.
The els of LAXSDOWNE was understood to admit
theoflMwens of instruction recommended

by the user lard, and te praise that the eubject should
have the *ordination et perinarimk
Craw Id to 19 were trot ogred to.
Lord STANLEY mid ha biped their lonlidtips would
Mecthe dieerarion of dee important d et Blame which be
gie:ben notice, without brag rfasemedt rearry amide-
rations of popularity, sr by say et thememeidera-
tions to which alludes Mt liter emit demisitiat the
clause he had to propose was a leadird's ornenere, and
said that he should be ethantal if brae& it be papier it
with that view. It was man • Wawa?' lbw a haillord's
conducamendment. (Hpese, her.) The nueolin Ira bow beet
bad to
wisely anore rise t ita enea experiment g• 110114/
as tit =hi the of
Ireland best able to bear the brim as
it, and, at the sere time to rem the peer from
distress, by giro. than emplersost. He was sot
deterred her go opoong this oreadlarat by the ar
from the other beam, will& bed been isaaneedbr Isl:
noble earl on the nom bessioi —do the elitist that the Earl
of Lincoln had changed his Uri.' fLantling.) He wee
not over anxious as to the Abet Mai Mie b=x-,
nonnoment would bay. so their
Heiner was he to be deterred tor.' terwrd this
amerilment by the objorkets weld had urged against
it by tie rile (Lord Lasedowne), and
=
other rib kede7l=l"minisis Mt alluded to the
impression Mirk he rierilen of tith stem would ro-
deos i but the by. eight set to lOM. te oak impres-
sions, but to nest the seeeedin Of the nee; ell he be-
lieved that this eiseadessat *sly could preserve the property
of Ireland from rate. Weald of their lariddpe dare to
legislate era sash a poher he and to pro • poor
law derived of asel a yeertl ewe it that wintry ? With
what shut dram then mad this be Issefor behold ? Let
it be shown that the expedement lad* Wee=
is England aril be mare fa Irbil beige the
cm rejected. Every one Maine& that tbe taireare sow
under discussion would effect a vast deauge in the affairs of
Ireland ; and the object of this ameriment was to relieve the
pressure of the pore rats, bys • stingy, niggardly ro-
omy, and by but to supersede
pauperism by =the der son:labour. As the law
at present stood, the rate wee exclusively levied on the
runt ; but he had a right to deduct from his rent a pound-
ing equivalent to eneralf the rate. Practically, the law
worked in this way ; the r•teable value of the land was every
where much below thereat value; land let at 301. was perhaps
rated at 201. • the tenant, therefore, while paying a rate of a
shilling in chi, pound, or 110 a., deducted 6d. in the pound on
the whole rental, or 15a from hie rent, thus throwing the
greater part of the burden ea his hound. (Hear, hear.)
In the majority ot the tesillenie paid two-thirds of the
rates. (Hear, hut.) lEismalYrrat managed very dif-
ferently in England, it every no knew what would be the
effect here if the fanner bed the power of levying a rats,
and then throwing two-thirds of it on the landlords. What
would be the effect on the increase of pauperism, and on
the emp!eyment of labour, if smith a state of things
prevailed hen? Infallibly, under such a rebel in Eng-
land, the result would be, the demoralisation of the whole
parish, and its being overwhahned with pauperism.
Hear, hear.) The only hope foe the regeneration of
Ireland was by making it the Interest of the occupier to in-
crease the amount of labour ; and this stimulus could only
be supplied by requiring the occupiers to employ the labour-
ers or support them when unemployed. It they could
discharge the labr,urers with impact that their
maintenanee wtrild fall on the wee ee

telegket e• le impost ray heresset Mapiereent of laboar.
hue beig ths es" imessesmisti that the inns of proof
tested am Ss gowersmant to show that the bill would work
weilwithent the —whet prepared; Awl until this was
shown. Ist ths btrise beware hew they repotted his proposal.
It Wait be sidltist theisndlenb aline were able to so prort
the weight it penporim, end that this was an attempt
to mom Its - beedee tram their shoulders. It
wee as soh e&g ; he would not lend himself
to may math Amp& He ealight be interfere with no exist-
ing ageeseneato to violets as existing these; but merely to ,
ellinte • mod wed just in itself, that the occupier,
who ahnsilleat means Miming employment, should ken
made respwasilitio he dolase. (Hear.) He did not pro- I
pass to mobs tomawle at liable for the rates forthwith, i
bat only hem the lot et Jasau7, 1850. If, then the
'Principle were sound, the only question was as to its safety. I
Its operation would only be propetive ; two years and • i
half were allowed for means to maks fresh agreements. I
Roninintising the readiness with whoop wholesale charges i
wen mho and believed moist the Irish landlords—in I
moot sew ehoww eft. rommt injestree—seeld it be sup. i
read that the immissosiMbo maestri by kgialation from
this Mehl mgmileip et the hie tiqtrosing it to exist 1
Weald net the Inedishis honsad ionised rent;in future. I
Is 1/11/1" thilliehlll the effects et this bill ? It was ,
Sea OW 111•01/ soaO est pay the ram ; but the fact was,
• did
eit ay thowooWl nom produce their receipts in order
to I
the psepostristr hem their rents. (Hear.) Under :
any limiesdleed would exact the utmost rent the
wee Vain le offer ; and if the tenant was relieved :
hem the 2211/4 his rent would be proportionately increased.
But it ha him said that, if this amendment were adopted, 1
there weal be a nnivenal resistance to the payment of
rates. Seirelysuch an argument as that was not to stand hi ,
this boom against the adoption of a just and necessary prin-
ciple? (Hear, bear.) As well might they at once admit
that all the safeguards of law and order were at an end. ,
He considered that he had now shown sufficient to justify ,
their lordships in voting for his amendment. His lordship eon- .
eluded by moving. " That, save as hereinafter provided, it ,
shall not be lawful for any occupier of rateable property
Welke/ totter any lease or agreement to be made or enema
Meeks the pering et this set, our for any tenant-at-will,
or hem yin te paw, ahoy the Ist of January, 1549, to de
dud ham the rant le whisk he may be liable in respect
of era pospeety, WI MOM A whatever in respect of may
wee widish May bee impend at any period subsequent te the
date of and loam sr wreisLen2l.t to snob lot et
harm, as the else may be.
ma II Nei r vire, Lit MIPIIIII6=
antomhsest et ea ma he die ONO 1101111111111 past of the
helieste pm in Iliad,' he Om Aerie ad recovery of
ma i sipeePglP.t rated Is a met anseal wage not exceed-
• for pehaiy be amid nth Olken to apply to the
, Ise mod to a ast 1111111111111 value not exceeding five
Pledged, nevertheless. 'that no immediate loose
mho. way lease or ameement to be made or entered
thee the paging of this set, shall be authorised to
dolma boa say rent by him payable under such lease or
agrement le has superior landlord, any amount whatever in
magnet (grimy rate which may be imposed at any period
agreemen sub-
IsClthedate of such lease or t."
In
Marquis of LANSDOWNE wished to meet the
amontimmt fully and fairly, and to discuss it on its
owls merits, exclusive of all other considerations. On those
mettle, ad taking the most calm and deliberate view of
thee whisk it was in his power to make, he had no baite-
d= in ging that the adoption of the amendment would be
dithilmthain Ireland-disastrous to the peace of Ireland, and
almshouse to the MOONS of this measure, which he was now
justified is saying the majority of their lordships were de- .
sirens of seeing paned into a law. He used the term, " the
majority " of their lordships, because they bad now gone
thrive' the meet important clauses of the bill ; and yet even
his wide friend apposite, the moot reverend prelate near
him (the Arebbishop of Dublin), and those mat opposed to
the peinsipis at the bill, had not, up to this moment, thought
fit nil toles the tense of the house upon the clause which
ealmeged the operation of the poor-law to the ex-
tent te which the bill proposed to go. Even now ,
Ids mar friend who had moved this amendment ,
was dubs= that the bill should be adopted by both houses ,
Mperliasmet, and should pass into law. The government
add not deny that the measure was not without difficultier,
bash, begged their lordships to consider what was the cha- ,
Old. of the bill. The measure was one which in Ireland
regaind enteneive machinery to bring it into operation; it
required the effort of all thaws of the community ; it de- '
mended the manikin* freely given of both landlords and
tenants: all this united strength was necessary to keep up
and stimulate the industry of the country, and to prevent the
provisions of the bill being run into excess. That being so,
it was the policy of this bill to give persons of all clams, but
above all, the landlords and tenants, an interest in its admi-
nistration in the sounded, most careful, and most guarded
manlier. (Hear, hear.) Hence, the proposition for equal-
Ling the burden of the rates for the relief of the poor upon
all these chums. Ard was there anything new in that prin-
ciple? The principle had been adopted and sanctioned by the
legislature six years ago. Had it worked well or ill I—had it
not reconciled tenants to the arrangement ? And yet, with
proof. of its success, his noble friend proposed by this amend-
ment to introduce a principle which would ensure the ill-
working of a measure which he admitted he was anxious to
see pus into • law. The introduction and adoption of the
amendment would greatly aggravate the burden, which
would thereby be wholly thrown upon the tenants, and not
the landlords. Was this proposition the annunciation—the
herald of peace to Ireland ? (Hear, hear, hear.)
The bill proposed to impose the burden Nosily upon land-
lords and tenants, and he challenged his noble frtend's match-
less Ingenuity, and extraordinary powers of mind, if brought
in contact with tenant O'Sullivan, of Kerry, or tenant
O'Brien of Mayo, to satiety them that it was for
their b;nott and advantsgs that they should pay the
whole of the poor rates, and that not one penny should be
osetributed by the landlords. If the ingenuity of his noble
friend could be multiplied a thowiend times, he (the Marquis
of Lansdowne) doubted whether a single tenant in Ireland
would become a convert to his doctrine. He (the Marquis of
Lansdowne) suspected that if this dectriec was maintained.
the tenants of Ireland looking to their landlords would take
the same view that in a similar matter had been adopted by
that eminent and acute philosopher and moralist, Sancho
Patna. (Hear, end • laugh.) Sancho Panes was recorded to
have said " nothing in my mind is so desirable as the hoaour
of leading—nothing so admirable as the possession of charity
—and for these reasons, whenever I get into a fray or a battle,
I leave the whole of it to my master." (fond laughter.) This
equalisation of the burden was not now considered for the
first time. It had been adopted in the settlement of the
tithe question in Ireland, where the church, much to its
honour, concurred with the then government in effecting a
emoidemble alteration in the allotment of the burden, and
I math, its collectioe easy and certain. The same prin-
=dbeen renewed and sanctioned by his noble friend
it 1845. Then the division of the burden had been
made, mg he the last two years had worked well in Ireland;
for fire yard the same principle had worked well in Scot-
land, and yet his noble friend new came forward to detract
the prbeelple, and thereby impede the amens of what some
called • perilous, but which he (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) admitted to be an adventurous, experiment
—an experiment which ought to have the aid and
assistance which the co-operation of all classes in Ireland
alone could afford. Whatever might be the imperfections of
the details of this bill, the preservation of the principle of
eqtudity of rating upon landlords and tenant/ ought to be
preserved. The amendment would be fatal to that principle,
end on these grounds he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) /JAW
the house to dissent from it. (Hear, hear.)
Lord WALSINGHAM shortly stated his intention to
vote against the amendment, and to support the bill in its
present state.
Lord MONTEAGLE regretted that le felt cou.teained
to vote against the amendment prowled by his noble
friend opposite, because he was initialled that, by its
adoption, the remote chance which even now existed
of the successful working of the bill would aot merely
be greatly endangered, but absolutely lost. Even
if it 'had been proved that it would have been prudent
that this tax should have been originally adopted, if it was
an Raciest tax, he should say that the proposal now to cast it
on the tenant would be beyond measure inexpedient. In
some places In Ireland It would be impossible to collect the
rates. This was not the time to augment a burden which
in some of the more neeessitowi parts of the country was
east on the clam lend able to bear it. If they were now
=lfrom out-door to in-door relief, and from a probable
it of 10e. In the pound to Is. in the pound, in that case
the lesser rate might be cast on the tenant, but when they
werepamlng from in-door to oat-door relief, and from Is. in
the pound to 10e. it was impossible to take such a step.
The Earl of HARDWICK?. thought that in voting for
this amendment he was only acting in strict conformity with
what was just, proper, and safe.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS said be felt a strong
opinion of the impolky and injustice of this clause.
In England, if a man was about to invest his capital
in land, he made his calculations with reference
to the burdens which it lad to bear, so as to secure him
a profit ; but in Ireland, if my calculation was made
at all, it was only that he might obtain as much as would
maintain his family. If, therefore, the burdens of the land
were added to, he must be driven to support himself in en
inferior manner. His noble friend (Lord Stanley) bad mad.
an attack on him (Earl St. Oceanus) as being the bearer of
a manage from the House of Commons. He disclaimed
sub an intention. It was true he stated the opinion of
• mile friend of his who had been recently officielly con-
sulted with Ireland, and who did not habitually act with
elvilauty by whom this amendment was supprted, and
opinion he thought might have weight with
this noble lords who were not well acquainted
with Ireland. He had stated that in conversation
' with his noble friend fend, of coarse, he had his
'authority for making this statement), be had said that al-
though he agreed in the principle of the amendment, yet,
from communications he had received from Ireland, he bad
been indeed to change his opinion with regard to it. This
amendment played the liberal and the grasputg landlord on the
same footing. By the existing regulations, the tenant had a
right to deduct half the rate from his rent ; and
the principle had worked well in Ireland. In anti-
-1 cipation of this debate, he (Lord St. Germans) had
referred to the records of former debates, sad In that
which took place in the Irish Poor-law in 1839 is that hawse,
although there was a vehement opposition, and ray strong
I language was used. he could not mad • mingle weed with re-'
ference to this particular clause. He had are rehired es the
debates in the other house, and he tend that in the debate
on that bill Mr. O'Connell moved a ammo by which the rate
should be put on the landlord and oat on the essimise ; sad
his views were nseisk not by the
or demagta
ogue meni ef the hams, hint mw Z
Mr. Loess, the mamba SW Mousers, who spool with
Mr. O'Connell, sod stated his intend= to moms • pm-
Till° which would re the Fermat wanly boa the
complete. Colonel Owolly also agreed wit§ Mr. (nest
and said Oiat the landisrds should be liable for thit Ma.
this optr.ion was sloe gensitted By ILr. Rodastos ma biz.
Shaw. So that in NM bras ne nbriaro int nab to our
a dame, and in the olbor_ ,olliolo won mode to swiss it
more Icarian ca the boiled awl taw a as the tenant.
He (Lard St. Gwanao) war a =WI* of what was abed