The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-20 00:00:00

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mu•t say decidedly that he thought there was a larger
enipcodittu• than WM aicetw, for good sod efficient govern-
ante. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, thinking. as he believed
meat in a thought, that there must bee reduction of 'upset-
ho have so ohjs Miro to vote for the boo.
Mena •:'s present motion. His hmourable friend, the
Mimal.er ter Montrose, had alluded to the Civil L'et,
was a delicate question, and much maunder-
Stood. A 1 tree porthm of that list was Appropriated to the
payment p lineal officers with whim the crown had lade
to du. Parliament had imposed upon the croon the duty of
disposing of the civil list in a particular way, in certain
penis.. °eves, and it his hon. friend could show that these
WS its a. :e not necessary, he would not be acting incon-
nistotalt with a desire to maintain the dignity and honour of
the t rite , but merely acting on the principle u on which
the parlament had previously dealt with than in desiring
that 11.:.1P. places should be abolished. (Hear, hear.) If
be een:d show that the present officers were not useful
pnbliz Aileen, and that useful public servants might be paid
est of thy tied list, instead of such officers es the master of
the Dockhounds, be would be in no way trenching on the
elmetitutionel principle. He (Hr. Gibson) was sore that
every gentleman in the hoses would ha ready to affirm that
there were needless Omsk estraysgant salaries, and optimal-
Miry puhlie works going on. (Hear, hear.) There was no man
who could conscientiously my that, ia the United Kingdom,
there existed at the pr. a at time so se• diem places, no
trevagent nilaries, no unnecessary works. (Hear, hear.)
Valero a man was prepared to make that solema assertion,
be could hare no objection to vote for the motion of the
ben. sn-nab r for Surrey. (Hear, hear.) As to neeffien
plane, he meld mention ono is a moment by which a
melee of from 100 to 140,000 i. a-year might be effected.
He mart the Vies-Royalty of Ireland, with its mockery of
a court in Dublin. (Hair, hear.) He did net believe it
woe in ■aardaace with the necessities of the times, that we
shou'ri ki*p up a second court and establishment in Dublin,
the communication being now so rapid, that the executive
}onetime of government could be carried on just as well in
this (-matey. (Hear, hear.) He knew the great talent and
ability, and bad the highest respect fur the character of the
mew Lord-Lietitenaat of Irelind. lie was only speaking
et ta. system, sad be believed he was 'peaking the
ointments which were shared by great stetermen and many
imistwrs of that house when he advocated the abolition of
the nth ~ There was another great establ'ahment which
effected no practical good, and was a serious detriment to
Oa tale of the eanntry by creating misunderstandings
with foreign powers—la alluded to the slave trade squadron.

Lori! R. GROSVENOR objected to the motion as giving
the it e. that the government were not anxious.to reduce the
tar ti.o of the country, with which he did not think them
fairly tie irgeoble. Alter a pease, the noble lord then moved
at ar am 'lomat, a resolution to the effect, that whereas no
greater 'wont of tastati in ought to be allowed than was
oaf cieat for the good and efficient government of the im.
pire ; sod that it was expedient that certain inquiries should
the Sere to ascertain whether some places might not be-
anie as lees, whether some salaries were not too high,
whether slate of our establishmeics were not um
M was the opinion of the house that • general supereien=
mile shaeald 1.3 exercised by the government in ell depart-
menee, ia ceder that every reduction might lie made that
mid he made without detriment to the public service.
The mention having been put,
Mr ROEBUCK objected to the anunda:entu an identical
prepare!. e, "that whereas it mig be that tome plates were
too w. h paid, therefore the house ought to to vigilant." He
could undimmed the moti in of the hon. member for Surrey.
CIVIsr it dietiredy and there was ma and so; that there was
to, grcid an expenditure, and that it ought to be diminished.
Surely the country was not in a position to go on se
it had ...no of late years without any are of the expenditure.
With ty ry pretence of saying money they were increasirg
the tte die ex oe hurt without the ill, h oist :maul t Never
sine- Erieland had been a kingdom did she stood in so
secure • peition as now. The very distractions and divi-
sions whirls were going on easo.:gst neighbouring ratios*
were to thee maestri a scum of strec.h. (Hear, hint.) It
toss.therefore. an pretence, merge
fantastic Idea that we
meld riot reduce our establi.Lments. He feared there would
he an chasm. for the better while that house was constituted
es it se.w. It pre amts a most curious combination. He was
sitting by accident on the opposition side of the house, and
lie Nunn it absolutely cut in twain by proteetiosists doc-
trines. He could not sit here (the protectionist bench), and
there (pantie' is Sir It. Pc el's seat) without feel'eg that It
wits liks positive and negative electricity. (Laughter.)
The hones was, in tut, a nest of partisans,
and th sy were impr. sod with no other feel.
inns en in if they were engaged in a game of
chi so, ...hick consisted of four piece., the eneeavour being
to poi one of them in checkmate. He should be glad to had
there w»i a checkmate, and that they might get a strong
and I.e. nine goverment by it. He would even leave out
the wind " popular" for the purpose of getting a strong
gotetramcnt, who, when they knew they were right, would
do right, Intl not like the present tovenimen", evincing a
paltry eitation—a shrinking from their work, and hiding
their heads, like ostriches in a bath, and fancying
they vire. sled their bodies too. That had been his
taper'. • rii of them for the lost few months, and
he shone! vote for this motion, hoping that it would tend
to fore.. at the present imbecile government and tome a
stem g g iv, tomcat in.
Lord J RUSSELL said that the hon. gentleman who
male ii" motion concluded his speech by saying that he did
not nr.or it a • vehicle for any charge spinet the govern-
ment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he accepted
thr d but nothing would please the lino. member
for fiht Pie Id, but to take the motion in a totally different seam
—itoth:liz would satiety him but to consider it as • censure
span th. gem romentend to conclude his remarks be saying he
sever held such an exhibition of imbecility as the present
over noses trefinted,and wi'hed to see a stror g government.
With rs.ard to a strong government, the hon. gentleman
must Olean it to consist of himself and no one else—(a
laugh) —tor, as far as he could see, the boo. gentleman n
did rn r vs of any opinions am pt those he himself enter-
taincd independently red honestle no doubt. He met r did
happen to agree with any set of gentlemen in that house.
Removing the motion, he (Lied J. Rumen) cwncd he did
Sot chi k it contained a assure upon the government, but
he thought .t rather odd as a resolution of the boom It
said that large SUM were expended in supporting needless
, xtravageot salaries, and unnecessary works and
'stab] eliments, thus uselessly adding to the taxation of the
country. Surely, they, that house had not done its duty in
the t resent series, and the effect of such a resolution must
be, not • censure upon the present government, but upon the
house itself. It was • sort of vote of repentance of their
own c 'educe. The honAtrable member fir Sheffield
▪ i' deed, that it was • vote of censure, and justified
his wes ihe so oa a moat extraordinary ground—namely
en the Imola that Sir H. Parma moved a certain
iresolui .11 in 1830, and that In 10i31, Lord Althorp pursued
certain r oduct respecting the civil lilt He owned he
mob, ~it pee how that could induce the ham to come to a
vote of censure upon those who acted with him in 18.31. It
was a meet strange ground to lay for a resolution in 1849.
Bat the fact was totally different. It had been urged by the
white party fee some years, and especially by Lord
Brougham, that the including in the civil list • great many
espeteer, besides the household and personal expences of the
govairga, was very inconvenient in two weys—it
Md to the maintenance, during the life of the ee
welder of expanses which might be reduced, and
in the seat place, it pave rise to the unfounded
teitertion and representation that 900,0001. was expended on
the dignity of the crows, whereas it.. than one-half that
sumwas the amount that ought to have eons'ituted the
civil list. It was urged by Lied Brospham, Sir H.
Parr 11, sad others, and upon that greasd the house, by •
mai +el' y, armed tOrefer the civil list to a select committee,
and the Duke of Wellington's government resigned upon
that re.olstion. There was therefore no reason for
the prerint tootles upon the ground alleged by the
ben. genCeenan, and rill less upon the facts of the nes.
He believed, although we still have a large amount
of taxation, that the consumers of this country, emweially
the poorer clam* were tar better off than before the
American and French wars, which added so enormously
to our r ht. By the prudence of government since the
WM, they bedlam stabled to take off cr diminish the
dutyon salt, undies, leather, coals carried coastwise,
beer, sad near, all of which paid heavy taxes
before we undertook those unfortunate and mistaken wars.
Having takm off those taxes, and having done so consist-
ently with maintaining a considerable military estab!bhment
—(enale slid moth too lame a military establishment)—and
consistently with the credit of the country—the hon.
moor r he Sauey asked them to adopt muse scheme
by which the eountry might be relieved from that which
he eonswiered a great burden—the lament of upwards
of 28 millions for the interest of the debt. The honourable
gentleman who spoke last said the army wan a great
deal tie, large, and that it ought to be exceedingly reduced.
With respect to the army kept la the United Kingdom and
Ito pennies they had this year proposed arsdretionof no less
than 10.000 saes. Such • redaction is one year was very
consPershle. (Hear, hear.) But the hon, member said—
foilow.im others who had frequently mad* the same um.
lion without anything like peool—tkat if we roomed oar
colon ;et well, sad gave them representative ins itutions, we
should ham so need of armies. (Hear, hen.) Toey ap-
peared to suppose that the army was maintained for the
purpose of keeping down the people of the colonies; other-
wise, why not reduce the army at Portsmouth and Ply.
mouth Troops were not kept at Portsmouth and Ply-
mouth because the people there were disaffected sal re-
quired to be kept down by military force, but to defend
them places which were Seential to our defence. Ia the
same way, we had troops at Bermuda and other places for
the defence of these colonies. Tile hon. member for Mont-
rose said the expenses had gone en increasing. In 1847 and
the la-ginning of 1848 there was an increase of expense ; but
the tr. at increase had taken plan on the estimates cf 1846,
which were very fully explained to the house, and which the
house aimed upon a view of what were the wants of the
country. An intense was proposed in the navy for the pur-
poses of defence ; and the house., without any opposition,
affirmed the necessity of that increase. (Hear, hear.) He
did not remember that there was anything beyond an insig-
nificant opposition to that Menem. At present there was •
dispoetion the other way, and the home now called oa the
government to make ?eduction, in the estimates. But con-
siderable reduction had already been made upon those mai-
mates ; taking the redurtloss of lase year and this year the
total was mere than 2,200,0801. (Hear.) That certainly ab;wed
an inclination to reduce. The budget of 1843-9 showed • re-
duction of 828,0001. ; while is mateis of 1849-60 there was
a reduction of 1,611,46 H., making, together with further re-
ductions in the ordnance, a total of 2,613,8241, (Hear, hear.)
But while making this reduction they had been constantly
told that they were incresaing the :pewee. He trusted,
therefore, that if the boon came to any resolution, it would
be in the terms of time of the noble lord the asembol. for
• Middlesex ; than it would think it far wiser not to tiey avece
in such swerfang terms, which could not lead r;,,e'y practied
results, b' .*.t would show its economy ',mks, by a constant
0 sulPorintendence of the exneadit'lre of the country than by a