The Express.
London, England, 1847-05-07 00:00:00

the first amendment, that the guardians were the beet
judges attic necessity of prividing additional builds for
the destitute when the workhouse wan full. He with
the noble lord (Stanley), that it was not d to curry
food to the Musts of the destitute, but there was a remedy
provided againat that by another clause.
The Earl of hr. GERMANS thought that there we, no
necessity for the amtudment props:eery, as the mainatiallencra
had tho power of directing in wbst way relief woo to be
given. This would ; tfvctually prevent the abuse apprehended
from giving fond to the eh at it ute at their houses.
Lord MONTEAGLE said, that without some such ar-
rangement as was proposed, it would be impossible to make
proper provision for the distribution of food. If the opinion
of the committee was taken on the second part of the clause,
he should support it
The Earl of WICKLOW said, that to establish store-
houses in the different unions, in the present state of the
country, would have no other effect than to invite and en.
courage plunder. (Hear.)
The Earl of ST. GERMANS complained of the han.h.
nese of this language. From a tabular statement in his
hand, he found that the majority of the habitations, in all
the unions, were within tau miles of the workhouse. Power
'wing also given to the commissioners to divide and re-
arrange the unions, where necessary, the present amend-
meut was wholly uncalled for.
Lord MONTEAGLE said it would be impossible to pro-
vide for the distribution of food ovar792 square mats, tinier'
the amendment was adopted.
Earl GREY said the argument of the noble lord, who had
last spoken did not apply to the question before the house.
The propoeil was, not to confer a power of building stores,
but to create a elisabi.ity of ramie:fag relict except out of
such storey. In many cases' it might be the best course to
gise relief in this manner; but it would be clearly unwise to
restrict boards of guardians, as would be done by the amend-
meat now proposed, from giving out-doer relitf, where
necessary. in any other manner.
After a few words trout Eel Ftrzwlistram and the Mar-
quis of Wearagavir,
The Marquis of CLAN RICARDE said that if the amend-
ment was adopted, it would neta>sitate the building of a
store in every union before a single iiidividnal could be
tiered. In the nbion where the noble lord resided who had
proposed the amendment, he had ascertained that the work-
house was not full. (Hear.)
After a abort consultation, the Earl of DCOART Con-
sented to withdraw his motion, and the clause wan agreed
to, as was clause 3.

On clause
Lord STANLEY said he thought it absolutely necessary
to take greeter precautions against the jobbing of guardians
in Ireland than was done is this country. Li no particular
was there likely to bee greater amount of jobbing than in
the appointment of officen—(hear, hear)—and he wished to
call the attention of the house to the extremely large
powers which were given to the guardians in this
respect. In England. the average population of the union'
was shoat 21,000 ; in Ireland, it exceeded 6000. (Hear.)
There were no leas than eighteen unions in Ireland, con-
s istia gof above 100.000 acres. If the difficulty of assembling
the guardians were great in England, it must be still greater
in Ireland, and there must be lesa controul over the relieving
officer. It would be almost impossible to find relieving-nfiLl
oers who would discharge their duty firmly and con.cicn.
tiously. In the intervals between the meetangs of the guar-
dians no such officer namely would refuse relief to an
able-bodied man. It was to be feared, too, that the guar-
dians would frequently select their own relations for the
office. The noble lord concluded by moving an amend-
ment transferring the appointment of the rehering-efficers
from the boards of guardians to the commimionen.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought the ease put by
the noble lord was met by the clam, giving to the poor-law
commissioners the power of dismining relieving-officers who
did not properly rotor= their duty. •
The Earl of Ro DEN and the Earl of La:caw supported the
amendment. 4e• s •
Earl GREY said the amendment was contrary to the
whole principle of tho bill, which was to throw the chief
responsibility on the guardians, and nut to allow them to
shelter themselves under the plea that they would not per-
form their duty because they had not good officers. It had
been the habit of the Irish people, for the last fifty
years, to depend fur every thing on the government,
and that wart the reason why local glides were ma-
naged so much worse in Ireland than in England.
Tho noble lord opposite (Lord Stanley) had pointed to
abuses in this respec• hut he (Earl Grey) believed that no
small proportion of those abuses is owing to the circum-
stance that parties in Ireland have been spending the money
advanced from the treasury with, he feared, very little in-
tention of repaying it. His film connetion was, that when
they were called upon to superintend the expenditure of
money to be raised by rates payable by themselves, they
would exercise .1 good deal more care and strictness in the
mode of administration. Trusting to thot chock, and trust-
ing also to the power which the poor-law commiaaioners
ought to pusses, an Ireland, to dismiss, in cases of misconduct,
he thought the house would make an injudicious change in
this bill if it threw the original appointment of the relieving
officers upon the commissioners in Dublin. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CLA.NCeIiRTY thought the .eliusion made by
the noble earl to the boards of guardians was most unjust.
Earl GREY : Why, I have just been defending the
heard, of guardians from the imputations cast upon them by
its noble lord orposite (Lord Stanley).
The Earl of CLANCAItTY considered that the noble earl
had himself attacked the character and disposition of the
hoards of guardians in Ireland is the performance of their
duties. (" No, no.") The noble earl had imputed
0 them the dishonesty of burro., iag public money
without the intention of repaying it (Cries- of
' No• no.") He (the Earl of Clancarty) had un-
derstood the noble earl to say that they were willing to
borrow public money without the intention of repaying it,
and that they would be more careful and thrifty in the ex-
penditure of the money raised by rates to be contributed te
by themselves. If the noble earl had such an opinion of**
guardians, he was surprised he should leave to them the
appointment of the relieving officers. (Hear, hear.) U
such imputations were cut upon them, confidence in them
would be shaken, and they would tic incapscitedand unfitted
for the proper performance of the important duties emended
to them. No more important functionary than that of re-
lieving officer could be appointed under this bill, and yet no
information had been adorded as to the number to be ap-
pointed, the sealants and emoluments they were to receive.
or as to the securities to be required furthe faithful discharge
of their duties. Perhaps some one of her Mejeaty's ministate'
would afford the house some information in these respects.
The Earl of ELLEN BOROUGH said that no man was
more desirous than he was to see the poor-law in Ireland
administered by the local gurgament, Lut he felt perfectly
confident that if the house now proceeded on the supposition
that it was possible to import bodily into Ireland the poor-
Mtn of England--on the suppositiou that the constitution of
society in Ireland was like that of England, or that the
introduction of the same law into the two countries which
were so totally dissimilar, would produce similar effects, it
would create the greatest possible difficulties and dangers and
postpone for an indituao period the best hopes of the esta-
blishment in Ireland of self.govlcoment. (Hear, hear.) Ho
much regretted odthe neoemi. which existed for the
amendment which head 'litfloa proposed byhis noble
friend (Lord Stauliy),• •fine the necessity existed.He
He had reacrwith .deeP .eta•pain, regret, and dismay the
accounts of the state Of •Irtlend contained in the blue-booha
now on the table of theshopee. ,Yrorn those accounts he saw
more grounds for apprehension as to the future than from
the preset destitathoil which prevailed in that unhappy
country. lie saw everywhere a spirit of intimidation which
almost deprived him of evert/hope of the future regeneration
of Ireland—a spirit of ,inUnsidation which pervaded all
classes, from the higbdi to the lowest, with some few bet
brilliant exceptions. (Hear, hear.) The relieving offieno
would be required to.ffie above all local inflate:lee, and not to
be afraid to be shot at every day. (Hear, hear.) How
were the affairs of relieving Ireland now conducted ?
Why, by officers of the army and navy, irks
had the firmness to carry the law into effect, sad
the courage to hazard the consequences of the:
firmness, But if it was determined to select these relieving
officers from a lower department—from a class inferior to

the relief committees themarlres, the law so administered
would fail--the whole country would be disgusted with Its
failure, and would attach blame to the law itself ; whereas
the blame ought to reed upon the instruments thus selected
to carry it into operation. He confessed that he did not
see, without the adoption of a similar amendment to that
now proposed, the possibility of carrying this law
into execution in Ireland. Thera was nothing me
ruinous or contemptible in legislation, as, having an object
to attain, to shrink from the means of attaining it. It was
desired to relieve the destitution of Ireland, and let the so.
Yernment look the measure in the face ; but if it was ift-
tempted to legislate for Ireland as they would for England
maw similar circumstances, they would accumulate greeter
111111eultie* than even now existed, and increase the dangen
egml calamities of that unhappy country.
' The Marquis of CLANtICARDE said that, with
di respect to the noble earl who had just spoken,
Iss must remark that the government had looked the
engem of the proposition in the face, and did not
skink from the responsibility of recommending this
=mantra for the adoption of the legislature. He, how.
war, contended that efficieutly to relieve the destitute poor
they must have the co-operation of the other claws of the
community. That was the principle upon which the bill
was founded. They knew that the people of Ireland were
somewhat inapt for self government, but at the same time
they were aware that in this respect a great alteration had
recently taken place, end they were not afraid to call upon
the gentry and middle classes to look firmly to their own
interests, and to take such steps as the exigencies of society
demanded. As to relieving officers, no appointment, ft
should be recollected, would be made without the apprebee
lion of parishioners.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that the elegises at
guardian. in the first instance, io Ireland, had been see-
ducted amid infinite violence and fraud ; and there was a•
reason to suppose that there would be less misconduct or has
jobbing in future elections, under this bill.
Lord MONT EAGLE said that their lordships really ought
to consider, at this point, what would be the extent of out-
door relief for which they would be called on to provide.
He would state to them a fact which might surprise them,
but which was nevertheless true: In the workhouse of the
South Dublin union, there were 2,000 inmates. Now bow
many did their lordships suppose had applied for out-door
relief. 2,000? No; quadruple that number, and they
tit:ion:7d
would still be below the mark. The number was no leas
itIONPUTTEI RAI AG. 1 (Hear
they
Inla:rddownid
hcors:u(eltuhltthter.)
were. The feet was the same let them be who they
and it sheered the danger and the peril Into which they
wen
about to enter.

The Eari of lIARDWICHE thought the appointment of
reliecing-offie. rs n most responsible appointment, and con-
sidered it highly necessary that the beet judgment should be
exercised in hi...selection. Ile should rote for the amendment