The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-24 00:00:00

OUT-DOOR PAUPERS BILL.

The Earl of CARLISLE moved the reception of the
report.
The Duke of RICHMOND wished to know whether the
sable lord would object to the insertion of a clause in the
bill to give the pane law commissioners power to appoint a
vintetto vialt **hones@ when pauper children were farmed,
frequently, and at uncertain periods, the salary of such visitor
te be fixed by the poor law commissioners. He objected to
this system of farming out paupers, because be thought it
unfair to the children and also t, the ratepayer.. He did
not pfopooo to make it imperative on the poor law commis-
sioners to appoint a visitor, but he wished to give them
the power of doing so.
The Earl of CARLISLE would take the matter into con-
sidention before the third reading of the bill.
The report was then received.
DISTRAINING FOR RATES BILL.

Altar a short oonversetionLin whieb Lord Cimpaam, the
Berl of MALNYIIIMIT, thief/eke of RICHMOND, and Lori
BIAVMOHT took pert, this bill went throualtementittee.

RATE IN AID.
Lord MONTEAG LE rose, pursuant to notice, to move the
an estimate of the tam which it is calculated wed be raised
ander • rate et 2; pee mink on rateable property in Ireland.
He did net intend to raise thlquestion or the expediency or
inexpediency of • rate in mid. There was a point wholly un-
connected with the merits to which he wished to call atten-
tion. He would assume, for the purposes of argument,
that the measure was • just one, end then the ques-
tion was whether the remedy would be adequate to the evil
which they wars called on to meet. The noble lord declared
his belief that the proposed rate in aid would not supply the
deficiency, and concluded with the motion of which he had
given notice.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE concurred in the motion, but
thought the information should be more lull. Instead of
asking for a return cf the amount which sixpence in the
pound would predate alone, he should first ask for a return
of the number of onions in which a higher rate than ss. in
the pound had been struck list year, and then his noble
friend would know the unions to which the return as to the
probable amount to be raised by the proposed rate of sixpence
in the pound would apply.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said it would be quite
impossible that the estimate moved for by the noble lord
could even approximate to that degree of accuracy which, in
matter, of the kind, was exceedingly desiraide. Their lord-
ships must recollect that in making the calculation circum
stances which varied from week to week would have to be
taken into consideration, because the sum capable of being
raised to-morrow might be very materially changed before
the returns sought for were completed. He could not
conceive how • sufficiently correct estimate could be
arrived at to enable the house to decide accurately
on the subject. A general opinion might and must
be formed by the government ; and it would
.be on
' that general opinion that their lordships would have to con-
sider the condition of Ireland when the measure came before
them. There was no objection to grant the returns sought
foe by the noble lord (Wharetcliffe), and, indeed, the next
report of the poor law commissioners would most probably
contain much of the information which he considered so
very desirable for the information of the house. (Hear.)
Earl FITZWILLIAM had always thought parliament
was legislating in a strange manner for Ireland ; and the
Speech of the noble marquis confirmed that belief—who had
stated—a very strange disclosure for a member of the ges•
vernment to make—that the difficulty of making the
return was in coneequenee of the condition and situa-
tion of various parts of the country varying from day
to day. If that were so, how unstable must everything
be upon which the government depended, and how
fallacious must be their hopes that the rating ethane
would be capable of affording relief. The noble earl eon.
eluded his speech by warming those who boasted that they
were desirous of doing justice to Ireland not to be parties to
the over-taxation of the ratepayers of Ulster, Lithium, and
portions of Munster, for the sake of relieving the distress in
Connaught, lest they might create in those provinces a hal-
ing hostile to the government, and cause a system armies
resistance to be raised to the collection of the rate.
The Bishop of CASHEL bore testimony to the
extent of disarm and destitution in Ireland, and
that the proposition of a rate in aid would only take away
fns the later* resothelll of that country, whihi it would
alathvata the evils which it was intended to alleviate. s s

The Earl of WICKLOW entertained a strong suspicion
that there war ultimate objects in view, and that the
present poposition of a rate in aid was an attempt to get in
the small end of the wedge, with the inbuilt= of driving it
in as much further as might be considered nemeary.
The Narvik of CLANKICARDE denied the principle of
the wedge ; the proposition was a special. one, intended only
to inset a temporary burden.
Lord MONTEAOLE, in reply, said he accepted the
aeintrance of the noble marquis that there wee no intention of
carrying the rate beyond the 6d. in the pound, at the same
time he feared that it they once adopted the principle of a
rate in aid, they would find it impoxible to confine it within
that limit. He denied that it was unusual to call for an es-
timate of the probable receipts from this or any other tax.
Every year the government laid before parliament the pro-
bable revenue at Wag from excise and other duties, and he
saw no reason why the same principle should not be ext-nded
to this tax. With regard to the terms of the motion, he had
no objection to adopt the suggestions of the sable marquis,
and to insert the probable sum which the rate would pro-
duce.
The motion was then agreed to.
Their lordships adjourned at half-past 7 o'c at.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRIDAY, MARCH 23.

The &maims took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE mucus&

SECOND RESDING9.—(Lester sod Holyhead Railway (Income
of capital. with powers to the London and North Western Bellway
Company to subscribe Landonthereto)..._... Corporatlon; Bills.

PUBLIC BUSINFEIA,

81SOOND Mutiny;
001IMITTEE.—NaMpition BiIL
PETITIONB.—By Mr. TUENELL, from Plymouth ; an Hoe. Km-
an, Men an independent asenegatioe at Hannah; praying that
=rnawho, las the Bev. J. Shore, might secede from the Pala-
Church, might not be subjected to penaltim—Yr. MILES,
from solicitors and antenna Mentos, for the repeal of the certin.
este duty ; also a petition from a place in Porsersetalsire against the
bill Mr imegiegve with a deceased wileb slater.—Mr. R.
CURRIE, several petition from Northampke ; Hr. BOIT,
from an independent ceegregation in Caithness ; Mr. SCHOLZ-
FILLD, from as Independent congregation in Birmingham;
Caram=ELL, tram Brighton (GOO signature) ; Mr. CLAY, from
a tke in Hull; Sir W. MOLEBWORTH, from
Southwark ; Tarr (MTN, from places In Ftietshire ; Mr. F.
MALE, from Path and other places, in favour of international
Mantles Instead war.—Mr. , from near Woodetcek,
compile* tint hedge satiate did net BRlGHTfulfil thelr treaties ter put
dons the ghee trade. —Mr. H. HERBERT, from the Mersey
Ada; Mr. M. CRAWFORD, from a parish in the toasty Antrim,
medal* the rate in aid bilL—Mr. P. HOWARD, from the letter-press
printers of Carlisle, praying far the repealiol the stamp duty on Rem-
Wand advertisements, and also of the duty on piper.—Mr.
AN, from Edinburgh, praying for a reduction albs national l
ex-
MidiVam a rebel to the manufacturing interest.—Mr. M. GlB-
iroil aManchester, in favour of a total repeal of the navigation
lswk—Mr. CLAY, from the Hull Chamber at Commerce; Mr.
WAWN, from Shields; Mr. RMBRIES, from a place not heard,
spine any alteration dthe mastoid's Wire.
RILTURNII ORDERED.—Capt. BOLDER% returns of the coat of
Mkg oat two frigates es tempi* ei convey 1,001 troops to Coy-
ism, %either with wp et teemeles ths same; of the wet at
the hansoms:, withw the mane %realm of trzeurit ea avenge
LT% =to Mrees, tbeatilird to the Ceps="l,o6loll
; erase mane of temegs seem may mem-
ting=s aim Messy tie gem attimeng It by the bergert system,
and the lempe ratable ; el the engem bowed by ibe Iset out-
ward ad hese voyage aria Rodgers Deem ship) to theHemillua
with twee% her registered toonspe, Me amble of peel= en board
sad sod homee banding the esmatialie aid mew sad able pom-
gam die temp fer deer me wad imessepledll=
We brag their I=Egwirsidee the washer of
sail odic bet is

NEW MEMBER'S.
The Hee. Mr. &name, for Lynn, in the room of the lite
Lord O. Bentinek ; and Mr. P. &WM, for Sligo ; took the
Who and their mete for these *ow
LUNATICS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

In reply to s question finm gr. Foram,
Mr. MAITLAND said be would not wove the second
reading of this bill natal sites Essen.
COURT OF EXCHEQUER.

Mr. OSBORNE iiliedihataTscelloi of the Exchequer
whether he intended to introduce a bill daring the present
session for the abolition of the equity jurisdiction oldie Court
of Exchequer in Inland; and. in the wont of not sbolishing
the equity jurisdiction, it he would introduce a bill for the
regulation of equity exchequer in Ireland, and for payiz
Axed salaries to the Mattis in place of the present node
romunmating them by fees, sad by means of stamps upon
the proceedings ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
although head of the department he could not satisfactorily
answer the question, as It was one which could only be
saswarei by the legal authorities. Regarding the epistles"
at has, it being under tho oonsideration of thews:knitter, it
was not desirable to give any information until the result of
that inquiry was made known.
THE ARCTIC EXPEDITION.
Sir T. ACLAND said that papers relating to this expedi-
tion were forwarded nano time vino*, but not yet laid on ski
table. He begged to ask whether the government intended
to offer any encouragement to other parties cannoned whit
the navigation of shoe ssaa, to afford relief and assistanoe to
Birl. Franklin and the expedition under hie command ?
Sir F. BARING said be would present a memorandum
that day and the rest of this lapin on Monday. He could
Min tile hon. gentleman that the subject had nosind
much consideration an the pad of har Majesty's government.
who had determined on offering a reward of 20,0001. In ma
vessel that would afford diciest immistance in saving Mr
Franklin and his squadron. (Cheers.), Everyman. would
bitaken, by oneenuniesting with our masuls add othaneiggiv
to make tkts offer known. (Hau. haat.)

RATE IN AID BILL.
Ia rtply to a gnostic& from Mr. G. HAMILTON,
?bre. GREY acid that if the Navigation Bill po&osl •
ib 11 committee that evening. they would take tt a Roo
in A d B II on Monday ; if not, th.y would go of with the
Navigation Dill on Monday • hut the Rate in Aid Bill Walla ..."4
be the next measure preeieiled with.

,• , 2
GRANTS JURIES (IRELAND).
In reply to Mr. J. O'Cougam.,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he would bring to a bill to
amend ate gland jury laws in Ireland on an early day,
PARTY PROCESSIONS IN IRELAND. :r
Tgeount CASTLEREAGH asked whether it was the in-
watioit of the g,vernmenito propose any aftware with Talle.•
WWI to party proeessions in Ireland, or if they meant to renew
the late act

air G. ORET.—Looking at the melancholy results dams ,
past prottusions I am inclined to think that it may be expedient ,
to propose same Mellfl.3ll to parliament, with the view.
venting public procenions of all kinds in Ireland. Whether
it will be a re-enactment of the act which expired in 1846,
or some other measure, I am net prepared to state ; I only
turns an opinion that nine such measure may be expedient.
THE ARGENTINE REPUBLIC.
Mr. URQUHART repeated the question he had put on
the former mains, as to the authority by which certain
vessels belonging to the Argentine Republic had been seised.
Bir F. BARING briefly answered the question, bat his
,statement was very imperfectly heard. He was understood
to say that the matter had been authorised by the admiral on
the station.

THE CANADA " INDEMNITY BILL"
Mr. HERMES asked whether the government were in
possession of the proceedings in a committee of the whole
house of the Legislative Assembly of Canada, which premed-
legs were preliminary to the introduction of what was called
" Lie Indemnity Bill ;" and whether It did nct appear from
thole proceedings that two motions had been made for the
purpose of excepting from the claim for indemnity all les-
sons who had been guilty of aiding or abetting the provost
of the rebellion, and that those two motions were rejected in
the committee by majoriCes of which the law officers of the
Grown and the public officers of the government of Canada
formed a pert ? (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY.—Not having received notice of this noti-
fies, and in the absence, from indisposition, of my hors.
Mend the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, I cannot speak
with that accurate information which I should desire. Cer-
tainly, it Is the fear that no official communications have
been addressed by Lord Elgin to the government upon the
subject ; and the only information 'which the government
have in reference to those resolutions is derived from the
newspapers which, in common with the rest of the world,
they have reotived from Canada. Lord Elgin did address a
private letter to my noble friend the. fireeetary for the Celer-
ities on this sabject ; but be has postponed addressing an
official communication to the government until this hill
shall have passed through the legislature, when he can state
the form in which it has ultimately received their sanction.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
It was then ordered that the house at its rising should ad-
journ till Monday.
MUTINY BILL.—THE LIVERPOOL FINANCIAL

REFORM ASSOCIATION.
Mr. F. MAULE.—Sir, in moving the second reading of
this bill, I wish to give some explanation of what fell from
me on the occasion of my introducing the army esti-
mates. I have received communications informing me
that two of the statements I then made are ques-
tioned by the parties with regard to whom those state-
ments were made. The parties who question those
statements are the Liverpool Financial Reform Associa-
tion, through their secretary, and the statements which •
are questioned ate them First of all, that I complained that •
that association had in their tracts charged the camels and
quartermasters of regiments with combining to cheat the
soldiers ; and secondly, that the tendency of those tracts waa
to diminish the confidence of the 'oldier in his officer. Now,
I should be sorry at any time to make a statement with
reference to any body of gentlemen, or any individual, for
which I had not in my own opinion good grounds. I there-
fore beg to state to the house very shortly the grounds on
which I made these statements. Those grounds are to be
found in the Tract, No. 4, issued by the Financial Reform
' Alienation ; and at page 62 of that tract is the following
pigs:
It Is alai necessary to remark that the clothes provided by the
colonel are only a part of what the soldier wears. Althorn, dames.
hosiery, shoes, hags saps, stocks, brushes, combs, and mull articles,
beside at least me pair of cloth oars ails for dragoons, and, oecsaloom
ally, trams for its are provided by the quartermaster, or his
Wit, the eiolldng and paid for out of the soldier's pay, by
daily des. 'rite to accruing from these regimental clothes
shops Med an induesmest to the heads of departments to be emitina..
ally swum sesames to the style of dren, of under-clothing, of hoots,
of Moen sad the other necessaries, so that the men are obliged to
purchase new articles, and submit to stoppages in payment of them,
while the articles set aside and declared to be unregiunntal, are yet In
good condition—ln many cases not half worn.
Now, sir, I maintain that if any colonel of any regiment,
heelers the power to do this, which he has not, did so in
combination with his quartermaster, be would be guilty of
the act of cheating the soldier' ; and the insinuation is so
strong in this paragraph that the colonels of regiments and
quartermasters have done this, that I think so leafy es that
paragraph remains nnwithdrawn and uncontradieted, my
inference on that subject was a perfectly fair one. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to the second complaint, I have this to
say : After a careful perusal of these tracts, treating, as they
profess to do, on financial economy in the army, I am sorry
to say that, from the way in which the officer is mentioned
throughout in these tracts, and held up in a sort of light to
the soldier as though the army was crested sad maintained
fee the benefit of the aristocracy, as it is stated—the whole ob-
Lin my opinion, seems to be to bold up the officer in an
ama light to the men, which goes very much to relax
disofpline; and I am mammal/ marry that niche body as the
Financial Reform Association of Liverpool should kayo
worded their tracts in such a manner as to induce that opi-
nion on my part. I hope I may infer from the communica-
tions that have been addressed to me in reference to my
stresment, that it is not the intention of the anxieties to
call in question the character of the colonels and quarter-
masters—still less to sow the seeds of dissatisfaction between
the officers of the army and their regiments. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME—On the occasion when the right hon. gen-
tleman made the statement to which he his now referred I
ventured to say that there had been some misunderstanding
on his part as to the objects of the Liverpool Association. If
he will read the whole of their tracts he will find that the
system is attacked, and ;that the officers are mentioned un-
doubtedly, but only as being Implicated in that system. If
he will refer to the report of the committee of 1837, ap-
pointed on my motion, he will find the very same words used
in reference to this system ; the committee say that such is
the anomaly that parties who are not acquainted with the
checks and controls which exist might believe that the officers
were benefited thereby. No one ever paid more attention
to the inquiry than did that committee ; and yet nothing
was elicited against the commanding officers ; on the eon-
trary, it appeared that they had nothing to do with the
matter. But it was proved that if the clothing was made
up cheap, the colonel, get more money than if it is dear •
therefore to a certain degree, their profits depend on the;
price and quality of the arteles. I do cot blame the
colonels ; it is the system that is in fault ; and I hop. the
time is come when we shall as the necessity of abolishing
such asystem. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI.—As there is a great desire on the pert
of the house to expedite the progress of the public business,
I hope this is not only the first, bat the last time, when we
thrill see not merely a member of parliament, but a member
of her Majesty's government, rise in his place to enter into
controversy with a society. (Hear, hear.) On this principle
we may have the tracts of the Anti-Coss law League, or of
the Protection Society, or even of the Tractarians ofxford O,
discussed and replied to in this hones. (Hear, hear.)
I have not given that thorough study to the tracts In
question which the right hon. gentleman has Informed the
country he has done, and I beg to congratulate him on the
results of his study. (Laughter.) I have only formed a very
general notion of the intentions of this society. I have no
doubt that their intention is to throw a stigma on the
British army—(loud cheers from the protectioniets)--and I
should not go out of my way to notice efforts of that kind,
respecting which I think the public opinion, without env ex-
pressing en opinion in this house, has pretty well informed
that society what they think of their labours—(bear, hear)
—labours founded in misrepresentation and exasperation,
the only object of which is to throw a stigma on institutions
which we all cherish, and if possible to lower the tone of this
country. (Protectionist cheers.)
Mr. F. MAULE.—Sir, I differ from the opinion expressed
by the hoe. gentleman who has just at down.
The SPEAKER called the rfight
hon. gentleman to order,
and put the question, that the bill be read a second rinse.—
This being agreed to, and
The SPEAKER having put the question that the bill be
committed en Monday,
W. F. MAULK said, I &anew in ceder in stating that

differ from the hon. geinkman opposite as to the- cause
which it was right that I should take on se occasion like the
present. When I make any statement in this house, which
is either untrained or impugned, or called in question by
any party, I think it lath* most mealy course to explain that
statement, so as to leave no doubt on the mind of any one
what that statement was. (Hear, bur.)
Mr. COBDEN.—I think the right hon. gentlemen, In
noticing this charge of the Liverpool Reform Association,
has alleged rather more against them than the extract itself
warrants. As I understand it, they state that the system at
present adopted holds out the inducement to certain things.
That is their language. But he charged them the other
night with having actually alleged that the officers did do
these things. The extract he has read merely says that the
indumment is held out. Add, whatever may be thought by
many gentlemen in this house, I believe it ls the
opinion of the country generally that the system is a bed
one. (Bear, hear, and " Ns, an, from the protectionists.)
I believe that the system of clothing the regiments by giv-
ing an indirect bounty to the officer is a bad one—(lieu,
hear)—and I have heard the colonels say so themselves.
tiara I am, that if I were a colonel—a clothicg colonel, that
is the prop term—of a raiment—(laughter)—I would in-
finks', rather receive 6001. directly then have 7501. by proit
~eppola clothing. (Hear, hear.) But the hon. member, hr
Bucks has ventured to unsure the right hon. gentleman
for having alluded to the society at all. But the hon.
members with whom that hon. gentleman acts were never
so scrupulous with regard to the Anti-Cern Law League ;
for, If you look at the records of Hansard, you will find k
WAS the subject of nightly discussion for many years. So
far from thinkb4 with the on. member for Bucks that
public opinion has already decided against the merits
of the Liverpool Financial Rehem Assodation, as I am in-
formed, in almost every lugs town in the kingdom—la
London, Edinburgh, Manchester—aye, and in many smaller
towns and viler—there have been kindred sous-
ha tinned, in im teflon of the etzsaie of Liverpool, fee
t:psta=f envying oit thir set. (Mew, hear..)
from the hon. as I do in my esti-
mate of this socieft, Cannot ' the oppletanitY Plat=
nut saying that *ink not only the cotatelbat this
end the Lakin Eteemelvee ,ere.irdiultsly 19 this