The Express.
London, England, 1851-05-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

1101'SE OF LORDS.—FRIDAT, MAT 9.
The Luitu CHANCELLOR took his seat at five o'clock.
PETITIONS I'ILESENTED.
TSLANsPoITATION 10 VAN DIEMEN'S LA NlE—By Lord
LTTTELTON, from Van DitOICICS Land, against trans-
peetation to that colony.
!Irian 1.1( WISES IN SCOILANE.—By the Duke of ELT-
CLEUCII, front Galaadels and other places, on the sub-
ject of s;iirit liceurtv in Scotland.
Aux /Stalin legneouv.—lfy the Earl of lIARIiOWDY,
from Liverpool praying tor more effectual means of arrest-
ing ahaerailing,debtor..
THANSPOItTATION TO VAN DIEMEN'S I..tND.
load LA ITELTON, on presenting two petitions from
Van Dienwn's Land. I raying for cessation of transportation
to that colony, said th woe shoed• by several thousand
persons; obi he was terso entrusted with a memorial to the
{ION n from the cameo of Van Diemen** Loud, on the
flame schj.et. This question of transportation excited
but little interest in tio's a...ovary, hut it was, nevertheless,
one of gri at important •. An anti-convict leogne existed in
the tooloay n .tuetralasia, and a petition was now being got
up to the same ef. ct whirl. would be signed by 50,000
people, and pr.ooenteil before the el.,— of the sewuu. There
was no doubt this had 1.. en suggests 4 by the successful
airtime •of the Cape. ar, hear.) Ile thought the go-
venom, at deo-re esl tli. gr. aest credit for all they had dome
an the seLject of L-aneportiation. The system, as it had
barn r -bons. d I.y t'se goo-imminent. was, however, only an
experiment. The. whole f the severe yr 44 part of the
seat, nr: wa• now itall.A.Al at home ; bat he was afraid this
pistelo could have but :ink deterring effect on the popula-
tion at home. Crime 1-... I inerearal, soil the convicts who
bail arrived in the coiony had toe OVAL exaggerated ideas
of their p. oi ion ant proope et.. The governor of the
(Om, t touloneueltal that the rules which had been in force
in the eolony a. to rompui• cry labour should be continued ;
awl that conviets slemlil he sent out as soon no
they ha I passd the period of solitary confinement.
The mode earl at to I, tol of the Colonial lb pertinent
e itala not expetoil to se tuio..C.• in Pais suggestion lie
lwwtser, lo sal stab 4 that it niiolit Ise ast“Ptid as to the Irish
emoviets. It we. tho• doubtful whether this plan of inflict-
iny all tb- inuoielou-nt at home was to he continuo el or not.
Sir Win. on 44100,4 whether any marked change
bad shikit..il by the convicts who ha I undtrg..ne the
p ort of their Mena- at bone. The state of the II
, .1111.1,t. If s• ry ouploroble, awl notwithstanding
oho clieibrity in the nUllim.l.• of the ones, very few of thew
110na.% of in niarri oge. Sir Win. 1/0141.011,
this, r AV..a'', vAid ti:‘, Vain,: of the colonists was de-
tiill iiiy w,,ein-t transportation. Nu doubt to re was a &el-
ite.: in favour of the ',evicts alai; hut this was only
on the pen of the convict population, which was
Tory 14,011..05U.; but in New it :gland, South Aus-
trate., Port Philip, an 1 Victoria the feeling was de-
loolistly air deist trate-urination. In New South Woks
noo ••••in ha.l tiv,ll do bated at gnat length,
awl 4.c14 .1, without a clisseuti.ut, against ti., continuance
of eniwirotation. .tt ?lonian flay, it .61, true, witte
Yaw's bad been exhibited to obtain eons nes, but it was
Mly in co:swim-nee of the warrity of labour ; and when
that hail poo.-4 away, no dunk they would be as
mach ooppi.asi In n n isiug CultifieN lo the-or neighbours.
What sort oil rosiesounitiis ,hid a- 1641 the colonies to he:
Did we mot oh sire that they 141011111 Is' guod moral communi-
tier, fops', at II :I.i, Li the population of the mother
ermotry A 1,1 no 'i.e' 1,44,1 •t. r gal lout that in a moral
}}.ant of view the pr.-el:nee of convirts must doe del anal.
• badiag ethibitoll hy the roloniirts LPN, from LI dread of
einirmanatimn and norai degradation. (Meer, bear.) From
what lie would he ar th prrolit experiment was not suirveird-
big, awl th.- woo-rosin. It n 404 hod itself bound to deal
with this qustion. and consider whether they could
sot abolish • portatiom to the Ate.ttalian
Own.

experience, that transportation was a benefit to the empire
at large, as well as to the colonies themselves. (Hear, hear.)
If transportation were discontinued, what system of secon-
dary punishments would they, adopt? Clearly they must
make the imprisonment in I ortland and similar establish-
ments—which would require to be multiplied fur that pur-
pose, to an indefinite extent—or else they must provide
employment fur every one of the prisoners when the term
of then. sentences should have expired. Now, the former
of these alternatives he supposed was entirely out
of the question, and as for the latter he would
only ask if any of their lordships knew a neighbourhood
when some ten of these extremely well-reformed
convicts would find a farmer that would take them
into hi, house? (Hear, hear.) There would always be a
suspicion of crime attaching to them, and that undoubtedly
a very grievous one. It was true that they might probably
find their evil companions again in a convict settlement, but
at home that probability was a certainty. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the prospers of the penal colonies,
he :the noble lord) admitted that there were many dila-
, conies iu the way , but we had brought them all on our-
selves by our own recklessness and selfishness. (bear_
,
hear.) Nevertheless, he maintained that the country had
no other alternative, and in proof of his assertion he re-
ferred to the astonishing and interesting monument of
skill and industry coutaited iu the building recently opened
in Hyde-park. Did they think that if they had turned loose
upon suekly 30,0n0 convicts, even as care fully reformed and
trained as they were 25 years ago, when the chaplain of
used i the bulks n hi, yearly report to the House of Commons
to warms as a moral test the number of convicts who had
leara‘al to repeat the Thirty-nine .'erticlee—did they think
it would have been possible to witness the spectacle of calm
order at the opening of the Crystal Palace, when there
we're assemhltal 500,4100 spectators ? (Hear, hear.) In fact, '
it would be impossible to carry on the government unless
the executive retained the power of expatriation. (Hear,
hear.) Thu noble lord concluded by asking if it was intended
to resume the hulk ss stern.
The Duke of AlifiT LE disagreed with the noble lord,
who stated that the system of transportation was
inevitable, and because inevitable that it must la
right. In the first place, that was is false argument,
awl in the m email place, it was not true that trans•
portation was invvit tille. The arnumeuts of the noble lord,
he did red m• an in a personal or invidious sense, were of a
selfish kind. They rel ited to the inc rovenience, Its, would
rather say the moral evils, which we should suffer by keep-
ing the convicts in this country. We could keep these
cons iets at home if we chose. Ile contended that it was
on a balance of the convenience and inconvenience which
must result to us and to the c lonics, that they must decide
this question. 11,- ooli,itleretl that the objections to send-
ing the convicts to the colonies, notwithstanding any rt for-
suatory discipline to which they might he subject, were some
ob thenuat strong almost as the objections to keeping them at
I home.

Alter a few words from the Bishop of Ox YOU° and Lord
Wolotttorsr,
Earl GREY said his noble friend asked whether the
system of hulk. wa, to be resumed. It had never been dis-
continued. lle wi.hnl it If 411 possible, WI a floating prison
was necessarily a bad one. But they could not create a
mlotitute for the hulk, in a day. They had hitherto had
them at the dockyards and at Bermuda, but they wished to
ir.t rid or them a. fast as they could. There was a very
large prison in the tour.. of erection in Bermuda, to which
the ems lets would be transferred as soon as it was com-
pleted. In this country the associate labour which he htul
de-crib...l as the seesonlary punishment would always he
peci'onned by convict,; but until the pri.ons wery
It w.es absolutely neee•sary to continue the hulks. No pri-
soners now went straight to the hulk.. All prisoner. '4 ho
wen able to underuo punative treatment were made to
undergo it for a shorter or a homer timo; then they went to
tin...as...elate labour which lie had dr.eribed.

---The petttann wa. th, n ordi red to lie on the table, and
their lurilahips adjourn. d.

The An•Illonhop of DUBLIN we. anitiosti. to bear tedi-
loony to what h. had won of the working of the polite.°
tiar• in In•I Ile had ~sited the Mount Joy HO). SE OF CONIMONS.-FRIDAT, MAT 9.
sa..kg iv, t0.....”e.h0i.. for rather I.•nothene4 period.. Ile The Sraaaaa took the chair at 4 o'clock.
W.V. satisfied that they hod oh rived great benefit frorn the I'ItIVATE BUSINESS.
meal tiny had leen subjected to. (Bear.) 1 The following were severally read a third time and
Ile ea bathest the whole of the prison, and be thought passed :-Alserdeen l'uhlic lkoords; Dundee and Arbroath
Its working 501y...1 many difficult problems ou the . Roilway ; Huddersfield and New Rey District Turnpike
sal ici lof prism Th.• ..lent it •1.-in was looked Rood ; St. Andrews' Railway; Bil a.
ou nob dr.-ad, hut it did not opt.• er to )•a.e affectol the The Scorburough Gas 11111 was read a ant time.
intellects of the prison -r., Ile Yea. convinced the it bad PUBLIC BUSINESS.
ben a en..., .4181 rep 'intent, and had poked the problem RELIGIOUS HOUSES.
of whetter cony Ole nold he disposed of at house. Sir It. 11. INGLIS printed a petition from John George
o 11;1; o tlo pion now offipted was to itithot a short Bartley, a meeiher of the human cetholie church, and ...le
and .harp phichluuent at home, anti then scud them ohneol. legal jo•nonol r•preoutative of two Wiles, now deceased,
Teti. thigh: Is. 4jeeted to he the colffiliste, but what alter- I formerly none of a (.reign convent, imbeequently trans-
stir in mho ie. Me rejoieed in the teetimithy , fernd to England, complaining that the property of the
whirls had been lion, by the right rev. prelate a. to the , odd lodine though trot...fere...l to the prioress to be managed
elf it of It. M,Putej.l .y-t..rat ; but, from On' experience of , for the ben.-lit of the said lathes, bad been treated Al the
1'•1,4,,1 ilk. 01//4 r pri -.ie.. the moot uniunit , oloolute property. of the same convent; and praying the
n 0.... seri of tot %to that 14 month, was the lonotot perio.l house V. inquire into the ,•onstitution of convents, and par•
of ....lit oe effiffin :wail that sould he indicted without per ticolorly into the circumst kneel comploined of by the peti-
t...rine hoer} to the in •ntal faculties ; sewd in the majority I time r. The petiti •r Jested that he repeatedly requested
if ca* • IO mouth. ova. os long a eeriffil a. could to hi made aware of the fgt. connected with the property
?hoe period. wen- too short for the whole punishment ; of his decc.awal echoic..., but to no purpose and,
the rt.:is iris were then•fore removed to liermoda and finally, lux dud to rile a bill in the matter.
Portion:), when th.o. wen. plon el in woociatesl , There convent. wo being the law of the
v Rang.. trained . labour of the nuot uo ful kiwl, colt...rations recogniod by law, the petitioner hail
with a strong ethisulu. to exertion, in the hope of been totd that he should nut alone bring his action against
eliore I their n ah•nte. The sery best effect, hod the prioresa, lieu also against every professed member of the
Frothed wow the stowm phreseel at Vuctiand. The nest convent. (.1 laugh.) such a proceeding he regarded as a
etep was Ole reasornl to the runty with wit it w.ss eallcd a grierauce and a denial of justice ; so ninth so that he then
“e:•et of lee:." It woe 34 al, why ilia Ole government , upon that house to take notice of the existence of
not oilly•re to their town ey.tein of 14181, wild them out . thew institution,. not controlled or recognised by this
as eta.... The horOine of that eystens was against it, Ow , country, hut regulated by laws of their own, 811141 having a
narks. were ffieffil.• to support themselves by thee ten.lency to disturb relations by the perpetration of
lehour, a- they shield .10 when hush r notraiht ; they con- Irma. (Ilear, hear.)
tisocel in II..• I woe Joins, and massy who had forms,) tie! ISE•kTIIS OF Iltloll PotrEltS IN IVOIIK fled:ono.
st room. to- had fallen into ;heir old pre,latory habits.; Mr. P. SeILOPE ai,lied to ask the right hon. Secretary
ley the to let of I -as,-.ydeal the cousins were dispersed ; for Irelond whether any coroner's inqueet had yet been
on,-r .; nq, mod r, Addy got employment a. ..heisbetls !beld nu the bffily of any one of the paupers that hail died
and 1., .k.oper• - they were noninal to par a certain mum within any of the workliuuees of Ireland, many of whom,
oat of to it wage.. lu the lint Instance, lia•Girt the system a oppeored by the report. of inspector., died within a few
was fatly ilsinght 06A-ration. it usiglit have given rise minutes of their adnuoion. And.. eu Law the reply were iu
ii ineaks. Utile,. amt tb, dial, tally • islianced by the the negative, to ask whether the reef-law Culitni.lion had
Lain ssuellor of Irish ...Wrt. 0h,,, nun- at first rent out et. r given any dinetion• thereupon.
Witt...! through that r. formatory eliwipline whit h Sir W. SOMERVILLE was understood to reply in the
th • Engliffi sonnet., were whiskey-41 to. 'Phis, however, affirmative.
would h.- pot an end to by the reialffislitue•nt of the Mount DANUBIAN PILIN(IIPALITIES.-lIIONGARIAN
joy 4.14664, to which .10 !I goo iij hut retOretwe haul tern mole. REFUGEES.
A: 6.utm IA n tad I-. 161 practito to remit portion...l'th, ; lord P.II.MERSTON, in reply to a question put by
oleo eon. its.. on ....edition of their while away ; 'Mr Unveil:aro stated that, according to the hot advice ,s
where r...rted to do I .niteel state.; hut .1 lan 14341'6.4 Is., IA j Of the littsWalt troops had beams their march from the
le* the Stotts imposing 3 line ihipl Danubian Principalitie, and that within a fortnight the
'lO lasing COOS tl•t• mans of them hod n.turtie .1 . whole wouhl have reached the. (routine. of Wallaehig, thu
to tatt.l.t. The noble heel consploin, .1 that the convkitsi Turkish troop. s•vocuotino principolities simulffineostely
Is. re not et-metal) dile roe). This had 1.311 itypos..ilik. With 00,4. 01 llU•sia. ith ox.ot to the tern:lining Hua-
i., two, -,.0,.;111g..y.14-flit now 0rt.41 it. 11.141 iv.,it .alte.• fritriall refugee., he said the- endeavour. of the English and
11i.•13.41 by path ins at and then. Was a tlithellltr in getting Entsch government. to obtoin their lilorotion had not been
plic*t.• rool-i4r es.:l.i.t.. 111. Isslive44l that the convicts, successful, the Turkish :government not having, at the date
wish r the n4rat,on. now in f . force. would ultimately prove •• of the 1 e.st 4i-counts. oleo rmiaed upon their chase.
aI. t. 81. t.. the colonots. Many of • Vier.- coining Ot..I•I."I'ATION OF ROME BY THE FItENCII.
mood :.$ thit ..oinitee: 411.14 t a great meeting "r t. non at To a,o.3tion. lie Mr. I'. 1k:414. /in hr,
TLK t.... U .y.., ono.: dioire hod Icon e xpr,•sosl diet Atli- Lord V.\ LNIE Ito IfON replied that the occupation of
twat: helnurers .ffie..ll he wid there. S., onnig was the R.ll/1, by the French troop. had thou undertaken by the
teliter tei the sulOert. that they were shout to petition to gos: rument4 France up m iti own ili.cretion:and judgment ;
A• sop it.:. I from the not of th.•
...il colony in this rosin. One I the British goy, nament wi. no party to the measure, but,
ells nail .41.1 the roatirt• 1,4 111.• Ite4t s. ninth he ever though it multi 11.4 t In.• said to concur in the orcupotiou of
, flew.) In 0,44 111 Australia. a enhay which I the city. and hal an "pillion upon the subject• it had no
phase to t'te fealty priuripho tat which it wa. founded, partieulor right to inter: re. though lie could not eay that
111 al Is •-n illetlittilkt in prnsperity every year. there had n•- 1 the result of the °cremation had been the establishment of
11. illy holt a racrl.e.l change. °wine to oh.' ittereaw• of wood guyerument. With reveal to the prelottnatiOn Of the
13h3nr; I hat' •.‘..n nu the shoo. wo. ...Ilia./ at a. mach 1 moult-At:on, communications had taken place he•
a. a 413 i... ant. TM.- belt it Win. or the coronets thew I tween her 313j.-4) • n034.4-111114.11t grad that of Promo. but
Mod li,-,11 hoot cosensplory and their Lalerur wet ; the latter basins our, occupied Rome, the withdrawal of
a.•.., p • .14,1,•,.. 5,41,-, oho had alwely obtoinel I it. garrion might hod to the n-occupation of the city by
" • e. hoe-, had ~act, t•-. 1 the-ovine to the , ...he other power, which might prove less advantageous to
sou nt .sti.fartons of the inhabit.uste. The government , the ',semi,• and to the gem cal interests of Rump... The
•• allSis4ll. In p 1.4113.44. the welt ire of Vast Dienun's Lind French government, which never entertained any project of
I'-.. it hod no Mail to el, ea end the diernatinuonce of Oil. territorial ocquieition, 1411141jtiolge fur itwlf, with due regard
.• •as •-f ilio•oisig ieto aser.-ly berm- it Might t.l all 01e hat nests concerned. as to the period when the
►s. it •"a n ....nese. es.., without any near.' to Coot of the ix-rupee ihoutd 1, nuinated.
mother a-tunny. • Selena unimportant quiotioas wc re then asked by various
The Ilishop 5.X.1.1.4111.11V Was glad to he able to add in...Wien and re ohs's' unworn.
104. 1.4../i.itany u. the ••11M1i11.1141e date of the reformotewy pri- 1 INTRAMURAL INTEIDIENTS.
rem at Cornetis4 hiiieh, living within hi. own elione.... lie In reply to a question by Sir l/e L. EVANS,
ha I 1.1'..3 thoaeht it hie slaty to si•it. IL rotas,' then j Sir G. I.ItEY • sid that till the Board of Ile ilth came
tO. •it ••1 i Olen. • h.. heel luau ouilty of yen crow offene..., into pit-nine of the burial grounds in the hand, of the
ei • 6•0. It y 8,84 alto B.ly looted *tinhorn the proud port tad, eeisting cemetery cowitanice. they could not cause the
•1••• we, were now nalent Ono that r -forwatory 'burial mound* within the metropoli• to be doted.
In•onn o; whoh %AO s. well ea1e111414.1 to inspin• hope. oft TIIE RIDE IN KENSINGTON GARDENS.
wares.. At Ike time oh.n he tinted theist they at re re- Mr. HUME wished to know from the right hon. gentle-
ennui:.: fr. u their oat-door lohour, e„11, sat or,lsr, with , in..., .of
tin-v) in the absence of the noble lord at the
else •.-tu! • osantenanno. and ith a e- nee.' appeorannt .h.ad of the w.sol: and forests. whether be would take steps
W:4401 tied that proti -r rare win. token of their bodily nut to allow Kensinotonoronlerui to be opened till after
en Wlon. .3* th.os at their evening Nicol• sad en- I Mondoe neat, when he int, laded to submit a motion to the
Joy. t:o ..see of I. 'Mt mono at their vienina deo.- bonneon this Aillipet. (it,- arc hear.)
Goo., at Vain+ It • affilr. sod to them none obwryatioa. he I Sir O. 1.:1LE%. said tint the orrangements Were not sub-
nnahel oc I would 161. .citable to their raw. Their de, ject to his control. but he would mention to his noble friend
soars e that nit hsof an "Minor; Chi-holm conirregotion. the queerness which hail been put be the bon. gentleman.
an I euelt that I. • 40,1 not but hope they 4114-re in1 l'1101'1:ItTY TA% BILL.
wow 111•444tre wienble of the improving influence., On the :notion fur cutoidering the Property Tax Bill as
auger wheels they h... 1 been Oleic. hear.) ansenikel.
flevet.... 'as.. h.• els;nili belie his Own couvietion. if he were' The CHA.NCELI,OII of the EXCHEQUER said he had
In 443 y that he :the riuitt rev. MLitt hinvelf entertaffied, reeeiveil so many woo 'emotions on the subject of the tax
any r, of a g.iit eel re forinetion of etimi- 1 paid by the occupe iuo tenant, that since he tut addressed
ws.• of oi ou.. yoke.. Ile thought the nohle lord, who' thu homer he had been in communication with the officers
dud do .1t •••• strunaly on the evil. of the pr oent *poem, t of the Inland resenue, with a view of giving the occupying
e 6 howl.' to point oild a wanly by which the difficulties j learnt. wow whet without departing too widely from the
that i.a.l be. a •tµ•ri.'need comic' be more satirnmeturily principle on which the tot was imposed. Ile. therefore,
shah is (eke. re.) proposal to bring up a clause which would suhstantially
The Il.•hop of OXFORD entertaireed feeling. of great carry into effect the °fejt et which the hon. and gallant tnem-
Fenno!, v. th,- nol.k • art (End Ore.) foe a very mat deal leo for Lincoln, and the hoe. members for Warwickshire
if what It, Woo .1 in dealing with slhlkult and. important and Salisbury contemplated by their various propositions.
milli cis. Pour or iit. years aftis he 4tbe right rev. prelate) The clause would provide, that if at the end of the
tow to - Worts ..f sueeeotiag ten thou lortl•laipe tie denim- year of assessment any person occupying land for the
bffity ofsla,lot the. putative part of tile treatment of con- purpose of husbandry only. and obtaining his Lech-
theta t too., at home rattler than affininist. nog it hood prioeipully by husbandry. who should be assessed
ahroa 1 ; out he had to thank the noble earl for hat ino car• under schedule B, •hould prove to the sati.foction of
Orlon; ti se verso putt in this country rather than in the i the commissiancrs that his profits and gains aris-
weloni.s. Marls. however. that the noble earl bad said ing from the occupation of such lands fell short
that nun:: Lint nista hint the in-atilt p.dn. The lof the rum on which Lite assessment was made, it should
gas ter. the paramount evil of troo•pn,n3two under Ibe 'Awful for them, on appeal made within three months
all its a. England had hitherto len liVn it, was that lof the expiration of the year, to cause au abatement
it ,4t.: O. • neatest trust whirls a civilised • auntry could to be made proportionate to the deficiency of his profits.
lave p:w -1 noon it -the mat trust of planting coloniet in Such was the advantage be proposed to give taxmen occu-
eliffioseit p trt: tn. of the glohe. (Hear. tine.) That in the pying for the present year. The house had decided that the
sv•:em. which iri. Tie.olls to its Vert, Core, Was that income tax should be limited to • year, and therefore he
she hwleioleasoured to plant colonies formed a the basest proposed that the boon should be limited likewise to a year.
of maolliell. The right reverend prelate concluded by de- \Chat the subsequent arrangements would be would depend
eloriag that it woo infamous for a Christian people to Sow on the committee on the ineouse tot. (Hear, hear.) Herd-
like...A min of eriminals and that England. once enlight- hearted as the Chancellor of the Exchequer war considered.
nod as to • lut wes her duty in this matter. would no or indeed was compelled to be. he hoped that on the pressed
long .r persevere in the perpetration of an evil of such occasion they would be of opinion that he had given duo
In tort ratio (Lord cheers.) consideration to what he must foirly admit welloleweeffil
lor 1 IfINTEAOLE thought they oaelo not to regard the the attention of the house--the complaiuts of tenant fannia cu.s4lhel with solo reference to the colonies. but in relation (" Hear" from the opposition benches.)
to the whole empire, of which they were Italy a part. The clause having been put.
(Hear, hear.) Thorn' in that light, then, he was prepared Colonel SlBTlloltl' remarked that they had bees told
to atoblioh apse the reason of the caw, as well as upon on high authority to joy over repentant maven. (Great

ever, for any Roman catholic not to desire to Fee the disci-
pline of his church controlled and carried out, not by the
agency and interposition of vicars-apostolic, but by the
regularly constituted and established hierarchy, because
it was thus, and only thus, that the Roman eatholics could
obtain security against ill-disposed l'opes. Vicars-apostolic
were a mere temporary arrangement ; they were the Pope's
• mimes fur the carrying out of hie bulls. The present
aseasure fur the putting down of the Roman catholic
bishops was more persecuting and intolerant in its nature
than any of the penal statutes. The noble lord pro-
fessed to be the friend and the advocate of civil
and religious liberty, and that very session, side by
side with this papal bill, he was urging on the legislature
the adoption of a measure the object of which was the en-
franchisement of the Jewish subjects of her Majesty from
the disabilities which still attached to them. But the noble
lord ought to satisfy hint (Mr. Saelleir) that this bill
was not calculated to strike in an unfair, an un-
constitutional, and illiberal manner at the natural
development of the Roman catholic faith through-
out these countries. The question was, were or
were not the catholic* entitled to the full development of
their faith ? Ile imagined that no friend to religious liberty
would affirm that it was a just thing to legislate against the
progress of any particular creed. Yet, in effect this was
the object of the legislation proposed by the noble lord.'
lie was convinced that the Ecclesiastical Titles Assumption
Ildl would be found to amount to inure than a
ofirtepedi•dalamd. y and that the
the government what would be the result in Ireland ?
d
Mr. STANFORD next addressed the house. Ile
actat it of
f oulids24 tic j.
applied.iie botanied" inked
looked at each question according to its real bearings,
and never referred to the issue which another omit might
tell him was inevitable ; for if he believed others and did
not judge for himself he would be perpetually, falling into
mistakes. In this respect, he might describe himself as the
political Pariah of the house. (Great laughter.) Ile always
went according to his own views, and eared nothing for any
other man's views. If, on the contrary, he humid himself
over to a leader, and acted like un humble follower, he thought
that it would be just as well to send his footman into the
house instead of himself. (Laughter and loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") This proposal, at present under conside-
ration, he examined, with a reference to its real meaning ;
and he found that it led to uuthiug. Probably the hon. and
learned gentleman the member fur Sheffield (Mr. Roe-
buck), whom he saw laughing, differed from hint. The
hon. and learned gentleman was also in a peculiar posi-
tion was the political terrier of the house. (Laughter.)
The hon. and learned gentleman was one of those who
held a large soul in a small body. (Great laughter.) Ile
sympathised with the hon. and learned gentleman as little
WI he did with the noble lord (Lord J. Russell)
on this question. The noble lord and the
honourable and learned gentleman had both taken
to letter-writing about the Pope. The consequences, how-
ever, were very different. The noble lord had done the
most popular thing which he had ever accomplished in his
career, and the hon. and learned gentlemau had done the
most unpopular thing he had ever succeeded in doing—
which was, saying a great deal. He (Mr. Stanford) took
no mere party view in regaa el to this question. Ile consi-
dered that the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) was a great
statesman and a perfect parliamentary fencer—although he
thought no man hail ever been so hualibled as the noble lord
was by the philippic of the butt. and learned gentleman
the ntenilser fur Athlone (Mr. Keogh) on a recent occasion
(laughter)—and not desiring to oust any government until
he was certain that a stable government was ready to sue-
reed—(laughter)—he came to the conclusion that the noble
lord was the best man they could possibly get under the
circumstances. (Great laughter.) Ile agreed that the letter
of the whit: lord (Lord J. Russell) was calculated " to wound
the religious feelings of many of her Majesty's subjects,"
and that the expression "superstitious mummeries," was a
most unwise and unkind phrase to be used on the part of
the noble lord. Ile hoped that the noble lord had doue
himself the justice to explain away that phrase. (Hear.)
Nu non had a right to insult the religious feelings of ano-
ther. Religious truth must be left to prevail by argument,
by discussion, and also by charity. (Hear.) The Roman
catholic`, were Christians. They were our fellow country-
men and our fellow subjects, and he believed loyal subjects
too, and it was certainly matter of regret that the noble
lord (Lord John Russell) should have made use of such au
offensive expression. The lion. member concluded by bay-
ing that he felt he must support the motion of the hon.
member for Stafford (Mr. Urquhart.)
Sir R. li. 'NULLS said the question which the speaker
would put from the chair woo, That the Speaker leave
the chair," and the amendment was to leave out the
words after '• that," in order to introduce the proposition
of the hon. member (Mr. Urquhart). Ile (Sir It. 11.
Inglis) would assume for the moment that the amend-
ment would, unhappily, be carried. What would be the
practical result ? Was it a matter of indifference ? On
the contrary, if the amendment were successful, it would
destroy the bill. (Hear, hear.) In other words, the
Speaker would not leave the chair, and the house would
nut go into committee on the subject. That was the issue
which the people of England would recoguise in the pro-
ceedings of their representatives that evening. The bill
was certainly better than no bill, although better still it
might be made ; but, whether it were good or bad,
when he bad merely the choice of the two questions.
whether he should go into committee to see how far lie
could amend the bill, ow resist all proceedings iu
the matter, he could have no hesitation in voting for
the motion to gu into committee. That motoon was to the
effect that they should proceed to further legislation.
There was no man so ill-infurmed regarding the state of
feeling in this country as not to know that the resistance
of the house to legislation un this subject would be this-
tasteful to the feelings, opposed to the principles and abhor
rent to the judgcneut of the largest portion of the people of
England who ever took part in any, public question. The
issue was not as to whether the noble lord (Lord J. Russ, II)
had met in the proper way the reeruirommts of the case,
but whether that house should say" we shall have nothing
to do with the matter," after having phased the bill by
such majorities as 3'Jl on the first occasion, 414 un the se-
cond, and 11l on the last. The minority, too, they would
observe had on these occasions never exceeded Ota Yes,
the united forces of thew who generally acted with the
right hon. member for ltipon (Sir J. Graham) the Irish
brigade, and all the ultra-montane and montane parties,
bad never exceeded uiuuty individual*. (Laughter.) Were
the people of Englaud, after such repeated majorities, to
yield, and submit to have their proceedings nullified and
themselves stultified ? lie would not vote fur the motion
beltore the house; and it' not rejected by as large a majority
as: heretofore supported the noble lord, he hoped the majo-
raty would at least be such as to ensure the house against
further futile opposition. (Hear, hear.)
Lord D. STL ART said, that if the Mon. member for
Stafford had moved An amendment that the Speaker do
leave the chair that day six months, he would have given
his vote nor it, but he objected to getting rid eta bill, which
he considered most oolajo:ctiottable, by a aide-winol. lie ad-
mitted that the papal measure constituted an insult to the
crown of this country, and ascribed it in a great degree to
Austrian influence. Bot if it were of such great import-
ance a+ had been stated by the government, invading the
prerogative of the crown and subversive of the aucient con-
stitution of this country, it should not have been met by
such a futile and:oseltry measure, and would have folly jus-
tified the government of this country in •N tiding a Meet and
army too bring the Pope to reason. Ile mould, however, give
no'countetaance to a hill which he considered to trench on
the principles of religious liberty. Although he was aware
that the course he proposed to take might give
offence to a large body of his constituents, he
felt bound to act on his own views of what was just. As,
hoowever• the majorities against him were so enormous, he
rt
thought it would be useless waste of time to offer fule r
opposition. The time would come when the people of this
*nursery- would be ashamed of such legislation, which he
sanomico.nwve !pt.
out on
oht
regarded us dbocreditable to the government.
nhiee3,,oll!uarelinOttkNtlrKi,inuEekSthhicasidehl nßewltuiglndgeorifilsea'kr the
npoe
the resolution before the house, and to say " aye " " no "
he Muud " aye " was the truth, and he therefore gave his
support to it. (Hear.) lie agreed in some of the express
ut
t tae
could
policy
cdtryi
coedhnt:
Irtei:hh:neieaencu:(atpg:ii
hrtnitirhimdi:.fe)e-t.
sioas of the noble lord, as too the bill being paltry and in-
ue to
govern
nn
nger
. lie
t c'orim; ofnrtidi t (t.h. e gentlemanloTr) sf
wouldah
1:11
tlthtonaftfteoh:ri;wm;rerairn,e,4l;:i.e,
rule t;i:
ittte,en,rolarouit sninbcotril'iol:cri.te,,t‘vh;mieir
lt
al
answer for throughootuttiltilitacihsb.,itillwahiesacand.tt
'noble lord at the head of the government had much to
t, by
en-
*stet catholic`,, itr si
mutilated
ittnhhceeen
roisuraßNo'rieumelanterhlVit'itenru. by
this
return of the noble lord to office, and he hoped to see the
. second and third clauses restored to it.
Mr. I'LL:MIRE should certainly vote for going into
committee. The public had exhibited great patience, and
he believed the strength of the feeling on this subject was
not a jot abated.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that the hon. gentleman who had
just sat down admitted that the protestant people of this
oulutthhe
wf ow-subjects, übj
determinedcto i,
toot'
opposewho heby wase
ver)o
country were impatient to forge manacles for ten millions
meanse
as
• ((Laughter.)
tlesrle•tird:rn:
.tehretehmispoilreecialtatiwo.n
note
ofw ewt against
n,haornb,iithilyo surprisingf tthhittni b
emtoenb,rl.l p311..,1
caloalthhoilsic.lPuo;
oofiEeanrglhaenard.spolouliedimbelieex„c
.ditedthearette
house who were opposed to this measure, but who voted
for it in consequence of the feeling out of doors. (Hear,
hear.) Such members, however, might learn a useful les-
son from the noble conduct of the two members for Man-
chester, who called their constituents together and told
them that they had opposed, and 'meld continue to oppose,
the bill ; and that they would rather resign their seats than
permit this encroachment on civil and religious liberty.
(Hear.) The intelligent:people of Manchester did not find
fault with them for the conduct they pursued. The right hon.
gentleman told them that the government would regard
this vote as a vote of want of confidence,
and that the home must abide the consequences.
Now they would not require a telescope to discover what he
meant by the consequences, namely, that the nation would
lose the benefit of his official services. (Laughter.) He
(Mr. Reynolds) was prepared even for that national cala-
mity. (Renewed laughter.) It had been said that those
Irish members who had combined against this bill would
vote black was white. An Irish patriot, whom he did not
then see in his place, on a recent occasion observed, "The
hon. member for Dublin has had the effrontery, in a society
of English gentlemen, to avow that he would vote against
her Majesty's government, whether he thought they were
right, or whether be thought they were wrong." (Cheers,
from the ministerial benches.) lie (Mr. Reynolds) would

• repeat his avowal, that from the wriod of the introduction
of this bill of pains and penalties against his creed,
ho could have wished all his votes to be construed
as votes of no confidence in the government.
I (laving appealed to his constituents he had received their
approval ',lbis conduct, and an aggregate meeting of tho
authorities of Ireland, held on the 29th of last month, had
endorsed his political opinions. Seven 14144 of people
had combined together against this bill, and their opinions
were not to be disregarded. It was important that they
should entertain a kindly feeling towards this country; it
would be a dangerous thing to alienate their affections and
• to drive them mad by legislation. lie had heard it said
that an insult had been offered to the 141114.11. Now he was
nut addicted to flattery, but he assorted without the fear of
contradiction that there was no part of the United King-
den in which her Majesty was held in more affectionate re-
, verenee than in Ireland. The catholic, of Ireland had always
regarded her Majesty its their friend 'old protector, and
they would rather lay down their lives rem insult her,
though at the same time they would not
in-
terferencepermit any
with their creed. Ile begged to call the at-
' tention of those who occupied, and of those who re-
fused to occupy, the Treasury benches to the fullowing
resolution passed at the great aggregate meeting to which
he had before referred --" That our deepest gratitude
is due to those Irish members of parliament who, regard-
less of all party ties, have offered such strenuous and un-
compromising opposition not only to the Kerb via-tical
Titles Dill, but also to the adminntra ' by whom it was
introduced." Now, he asked the house whether he had
any right to blush after the passing of such a resolution
as that? (Laughter.) If he were to blush, seven millions
of Irish people must blush also. (Great laughter.)
For they had endorse', his acts. An hon. baronet had re-
ferred to what he was pleased to trim " a band oil Irish
members in that house' • and having also dignified them
with the title of •.the Irish brigade' " said that he (Mr.
Reynolds) was the leader of that brigado. Ile was not the
leader of that brigade, nor of any other, but lie was one of
its numbers, and he said, un behalf of it, that it had com-
bined rod no other purpose than to defend itself against
oppression. What they claimed was the simple right to
worship God according to the dictates of their own con-
science. They did nut envy this country's 10,000,0001.
in tithes and church rates; they would nut accept them as
a prevent. (Laughter, and cries of " Oh, uh," from Sir IT.
Moksworth). Ile begged to assure the hon. baronet that
on that subject he was speaking his real feeling as au Irish
catholic. (Ilear, hear.) They could not contaminate their
bishops and clergy by accepting a state provision for them,
and when any had been spoken of they had always pro-
tested against it. (Ilear, hear.) They bowed submissively
to the law as regarded the Irish church. But the noble
lord (Lord J. Russell), not satisfied with that. had proposed
a bill, by a clause which iu effect declared that if the
most Rev. Dr. Murray signed his MUM to the appointment
oh' a priest, " Daniel Murray, archbishop of Dubliu," ho
should be fined lOW., and in default of payment be sent to a
felon's gaol. Were they to be blamed for combining
against such a measure? ((fear.) It was alleged that
the bill was intended only for England, but hail liven ex-
tended to Ireland on the principle of uniformity, and in
support of this view reference was made to the act of union,
in which the legislature spoke of the united churches of
England and Ireland. He would remind the noble lord of
the incousistency of his legislation. There was 'mother act
of union which related to Scotland, and what did it say ?
Why, that the preisbyteriau relig should remain for ever
the established religion of Scotland; and, iu furtherance of
that object, two acts were passed, one in 16:10, the
other iu 1700, which were termed. •• the Anti-Epis-
copacy Acts." Yet, the right hots. baronet at tho
head of the home department had frames' a clause
expressly exempting from the operations of this bill
the bishops of the episcopal church of Scotland. Pro-
testant bishops iu Scotland mitht take their titles from
phew,' in Scotland ; theemig t take the title, for ex-
ample, of " Bishop of Edinburgh," •• Bishop of Glasgow,"
or " Bishop of Aberdeen," though they could derive no
legal rights from it us against the COrenallter, Why was
a different rule to be applied to Ireland from that which
was applied to Scotland This difference was made
because the ministers of the Scotch suecessfully de•
fended their rights with the broadsword, while tho
people of Ireland were struck down with impunity.
If they passed the bill it would be a dead letter, for they
dared not put It into executiun in Irehoul. (Hear.) Thu
noble lord had been more than once Munted with this being
legislation;sham and he had never denied it, our stated
that lie would put the tall in force. The Attorney-General
fur Ireland, whom he did not see ir. his place, had been
called on over and over again to explain the law ; but, as if
by some Magi(' inthwuce, he had always taken shelter be-
hin•l the Speaker's chair, or lad himself in some of thin
passages. (Laughter.) Thus the house was left in the
dark, and nut sue difficulty was solved by that high legal
functionary. The noble lord at tit, head of the go-
verntuent said he must do something; but 11011. mem-
bers said he was doing nothing. True, the hue. baronet
(Sir It. Inglis) said the hill was a goal bill, tlimgli not so
good as he could wish; from which the infer. nee was that
it was a bad bill for the people of Kingdom and Ireland, Or
it would not have got so good a character from the protted-
out watch-dog of the University of Oxford. But the Irish
people said that a large portion of those senators who were
making violent speeches on this subject were mail. They
said that the people of England Often had been mad; the
Tudors were mad wheal they bend wept,. in Smithfield ;
those who engaged in the South Sea Wilde were mad;
Lord George Gordon awl his mob were mad ; the*,
who had given their blood and treasure, and incurred
hive hundred millions of the national debt to place
a rotten dynasty on the throne of Frame contrary to the
wishes of the French people, were mad ; and the Sallie
Wight be said of some senators. Suppose they passed this
hill and indicted a bishop and packed a jury (tOr they could
hot find him guilty without) to try him, and got Ai pliable—
I he would not say a corrupt judge to pass seutence 011 him,
Ile one dared to lay a fingeron a catholic mitre. Then why
pass this bill ? They might say the cooling army in Ire-
laud should be doubled. They hail had :el,tan) troops there
already,at the expense of the people lit England, it) keep
Ireland in order, when it was not disorderly ; hut the poor
Inslimau would sacrifice his ('sal sooner than his creed,
eivtlei,
tit
k hoblo
, he
ol them
iulplon
hltluie,hvaedna:sloywi
and, touch their religion, and the whole British army woo:aid
nut
to pause before lie proceeded further. Ile Mid no wish to
deprive him of the seals of oitice—quite the contrary ; but
the prueesaliug lie wets now carrying on was 4 declaration' of
war against the creed and country of Ireland ; wed, no mat-
ter what might be the constsmence, he (Mr. Reynolds) was
detenuinol, buth in the house and out of it, to offer this
atnieious bill of pains and penalties all the oppositiou in his

Mr. SPOONER said he could not con4ent to give a silent
vote un this question. Ile did nut thistly that by voting for
the amendment it would have the effect of destroying this
bill. On the contrary, they would then go into committee
with u clearer understanding of what the bill ought to be
(hear, hear,)—he therefore supported the um solment.
Believing that no government could shunt without legis-
lating on this subject, and that this bill. if lush must he re-
placed by a more stringent one, be felt no hesitation ha
voting for the amendment.

Loral J. RUSSECCZ, I should hardly have thought
it necessary to speak at this period of the debate, were
not afraid that amine portion of the house at least might be
misled by the statement which has fallen loon the lips of so
' experienced a member of this how.: a. the hon. and learned
member for I)or.etahirc. The hon. and learned member
said," Here is a proposi,ion laid before the Incase, and I am
obliged to say aye or no to that proposition." Now nothing
could be more mistaken than that asset. . The real ques-
tion before the house is this. A bill was introduced by her
Majesty's government, which hill on its at 1 read-
ing received the support of a very large majori y of the
house, the numbers being, I believe. 130 to
0.1. The house having thus approved of the second reading
of that bill, it is uuw proposed, in the usual murse of pro-
ceeding, to go into committee, and therefore the regular
question bef.ire us is that the Speaker do leave the chair.
Upon this un hon. member gets up and ))))) vis a vote of
censure mt the government, which, as he son's, will sweep
away the government and the bill tw,(ellier ; and the lion.
and learned gentleman opposite takes advantage of lids
paltry and shabby pretence to vote against the bill which
he supported on the second reading. (Loud ministerial
cheers.) The bare technical question will not be to affirm
or deny the pmposition of the honourable member
11rr Stafford. The motion is that the Speaker do
now leave the chair, and the question put will
be that those words stand part of the question. There is,
therefore, out the least foundation fir saying that hon.
members who disapprove of the conduct of government are
bound to vote fur this amendment, and I am astonished
that a member so experienced us the 1 and learned
member fur Donwtahire should make the statement.
(Hear, hear.) With less authority, at an early part of
the evening, the noble lord the member for Colchester
says that it is quite impossible he can refuse his assent to
thus proposition, that it is merely a proposition that two and
two make four, and therefore incontrovertible. Well,
really I hardly think the noble lord is in quite such a
dilemma as he supposes. Suppose that in the case of any
other bill a proposition identical to the present were made,
and suppose that au hon. member got up before the Speaker
left the chair, and said, " I have a curious arithmetical
problem to solve. I wish to know whether two and two
make four, and I must have the quest' discussed before
we go into the main question."(.klaugh.) What would
the house think of such an excuse for voting for an amend-
ment 1 (Hear, hear.) But the hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Dorsetshire, and, lastly, the hon. ;itemiser for War-
wickshire, have given explanations which must be truly
edifying to those members who think they are going to get
rid of the bill by this proposal. They say that this is a vote
of censure on the government, because no government can
remain after such a vote, but that with a new government
we must have a new and better bill, and the honourable
member for Warwickshire delights in the prospect of more
stringent measures. (Hear, hear.) A better bill, iu his
estimation, would be a more penal and persecuting one.
What is this proposition which they say is so valuable, that
it cannot be passed by? It is, that the recent conduct of
the l'ope, in dividing England into dioceses, has been en-
couraged by the conduct and declarations of her Majesty's
government. Now, the hon. member who spoke last says
that these words apply not only to the present, but to pre-
ceding governments. It is propostsl thou to affirm
that all the conduct of the present and re-
cent governments with respect to the Roman catholic,
all their concession, liberality and justice, has been
wholly and completely erroneous. (Hear, hear.) Now,
sir, I totally deny that proposition. I deny that the con-
duct of recent governments, or of the present government,
has been legitimately the cause of the present papal ag-
gression ; for, sir, 1 should say, according to all the usual

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