The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-25 00:00:00

conduct now brought forward as a hugs by the hon.
- -

mbar.
Mr. SPOONER said the wards be used wens that the
canna %liken by the government led the hones to Infer they
did not mean to proceed with the bill this ssesices.
,Mr. IMQIIHARTsaid that the ohjectlons YAM he took to
the bill were so strong, as to determine him to oppose mid to
ritard its progress by every means In his power. The noble
lord oppositeliad not condesoended to notice the arguments
of the hon. member for Toughs' against the MI), but had
contented himself with saying that he had heard the opinions
of Lord Campbell end the Load Chancellor, and they bad
satisfied him with respect to the measure. That was not •
cenetitutional way of meeting the opposition offered in that
house to a bill so important in principle as the pres,nt, For
the reasons he had stated be should oppose the further pro-
gress of the bill.
I.lr. F. HOWARD said that the bill had been brought
forward loug before the events in France bad !waken Europe
to the centre, and therefore any objection based upon such
arguments fell' to the ground. The Cardinal Secretary of
State at Rome, on receiving a copy of toe bill from Dr.
Woe man, h.al written to that right rev. prelate stating the
agreeable impression which its perusal had lefton the Pope's
mind. It waanot light, therefore, to state that the bill was
not acceptable to the see of Rome. lie regretted the intro-
duction of the second clause in the bill, which imposed on a
not very powerful state • condition not exacted from the
most powerful states in Europe. What would be thought of
slew forbidding the Believer of Russia to send a general
officer as ambassador to this country, lest he should attempt
to tamper with the army? (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Howard)
hoped that host•lity to the old taith had so much died away
as to prevent any great hostility being exhibited towards this
bill throughout the country.
Dr. POWER, supported the bill. lie hall the honour to
represent a constituency of 800,000 persons, 700,000 of whom
were Roman esthetics, and although the bill had been five
months helots the public he hod not received • single com-
munication exnerssiy= of hostility to it.
Mr. 11. DRUMMOND complained of the conduct of the
hon. and learned member for Limerick in re.opening a de-
bate on a question, that of the principle of the bill, which
had keen already settled. As to the charge of adding to ec-
clesiastical power, from some of its opponents, it should be
remember. d that from the days of Constantine down
to the present thy the constant habit of the
clergy of all denominations had been to cajole
and coerce the laity by every means in their power.
The bill had also been objected to as a means if
gnverning Ireland through • foreign power. No
difficulty would arise in that direction; the real diffi-
culty in governing Ireland arose from the agitation which so
long had prevailed in that country. The hon. member here
read several extracts from speeches and letters of Irish esele-
siastics and laymen illustrative of his assertion, and con-
cluded by saying that the true way of curing these evils was
by taking every fair and constitutional mode of attaching
the Romeo catholic portion of our lellowsubjects, and more
especially their clergy, to the state. With these views, he
should support the bill.
Sir It. INOLIS said the noble lord at the head of the
government had had a pretty fair intimation of what was
the protestant feeling of the country on the subject. Not
one petition hod bei n presented in favour of the bill, while
hostile petitions had been praentcd by GOO of the parochial
elem. The noble lord could hardly hope to pass the bill
during the present session • and even if he did, was he
sure it would he acceptable to the sovereign pontiff for
whose service it was intended? (Hear, hear.) Or had the
noble lord any hope that whin the bill occame law Reline
would have a TUICT in a condition to avail himself of its pro.
visions ? Looking to the merits of the bill itself, looking at
the state of Europe, and the period of the session at which it
was sought to force the bill through parliament, he felt
oouod to give it every opposition in his power.
Lord If. VANE considered that it was highly expedient
that this country, looking at the number of Roman catholic,
amongst its population, ehould have an accredited 'gent at
Rime. Fer this reason he should give the bill his cordial

support.
Mr. NEWDEGIATE believed that the obiect of the
measure was to obtain the influence of the Pope with the
Roman catholic clergy of Ireland in favour of the govern-
ment, an ibject which they had the best authority fur saying
it would not c fleet. The authority of the crown should be
maintained in accordance with tha principles of the constitu
lion, and not by the intervention of any foreign power
whether temporal or spiritual. (Hear, hear.) lie should
oppose the measure.
Sir H. W. BARRON supported the bill, and denied that
it would give any power to the Pope ir temporal matters in
Ireland.
Mr. ROBINSON, as a merchant, denied that this measure
was necessary for commercial purposes, as had been stated
by the noble lord. As the law stood the commerce of the
Roman states will as much mien to British merchants at it
, would be under this bill. Though it might be deemed
fa...*.ious to oppose the principle of the measure after the
1 second reading, the fault lay with the government, who had
delayed a bill brought into parliament in February till this
late period of the le salon. If government could show any
practical inconvenience that would result from postponing
the bill till next session he would forego his opposition ; but
in the absence of any such explanation, and looking at the
present state of affairs in Rome, he felt justified in appealing
to the house to carry the smenoment.
Mr. NAPIER urged the propriety of postponing the mea-
sure until another session. It was moat unfair, when other
and more importee measures, se far as Ireland was con-
cerned, bad been deferred men ly because they might occa-
sion some discussion, to insist upon a measure which he
irontendi d was useless for any good purpose, and in favour
of which the only argument advanced was, that it was ne-
cessary to give railroads to Italy. (Hear, hear.) Preferring
as he did the interests of Ireland to those of Italy, he must
protest against Irish members being kept in town to discuss
such • bill as this, while and when measures bey avour of
which there was almast general concurrence, as ng calcu•
limed to confer benefits on their country, had been abandoned
for want of time.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the hon. and learned
gentleman was defeating the object he declared he had in
view by standing in the way of going into committee on this
bill, because it he succeeded in putting it off until next ace'
lion, there would be the leas chance of those other measures
in which he was interested being passed. (Cheer.) Of all
the extraordinary debates he (Lord Palmerston) ever heard
in that house, the present was the most so ; for almost every
member who opposed the bill did so upon grounds not only
different from, but absolutely conflicting with, the argu-
ments of the bon gentlemen who preceded him in opposi-
tion to it. (Hear, hear.) if there could be one proof more
strong than another that nothing could be said against
the bill, it was to be found in the circumstance
that honourable gentlemen bad discussed almost'
every imaginable question but the ens involved in
it—via, musty theology, feudal history, Irish distress, land-
lord
and tenant, grievances of the Irish clergy—everything,
in fact, but the poor bill itself, which was really so plain
and (Cheers
that no one had ventured to say a word against
it. p
and laughter.) The hon. member for Youghal
said it would destroy the independence of the Pope. An-
other hon. member, that it would destroy the prerogative of
the crown. One hon. member contended that it would
wodestructive of the protestant religion, at it
uld uprot the foundation of the protestantth institu-
tions of the country, and with those opinions he I
adjured the house in the name of protestant Eng-
land not to pass such a measure, while another hon.
gentleman alleged that it would prove a fatal blow to the
catholic church, observing that if that were the object of the
government they nught to re-enact the penal laws again and
effect the downfall of that church by open means and
not by such an insidious measure as this. lie would
leave those two hon. gentlemen and the parties they
represented in that house to fight their battle after
the fashion of the Kilkenny cats. (Laughter.) He,
however, was rejoiced to see that so many hon. mem-
bers had only outlived the fatigues of the session, but
that in endeavouring to prove their mental and bodi
vigour, they had given a sort of rally to the session which
would otherwise decline. (Len:liter.) He hoped he might
see them equally vigorous and ardent in the discharge of
their legielative functions after the fatigues of the recess aS
the bsginniog of next session. (Hear, hear.) Minute's
bed been taunted with postponing other measures, and now
bringing this on. But they had invariably replied to ques-
tions on the subject that it was their intention to go on with ,
it. They were then told that by persisting in that intention 1
they were concocting some deep scheme, some mysterious '
mischief, some hidden purpose. Such things existed only in
the imagination of hon. gentlemen--certainly not in the in-
tention of the government. They were told that they were
more solicitous about railroads in Italy than the interests of
Ireland. Now what he said upon that subject was simply,
that, considering the glowing importance of the commerce of
Italy, it was desirable we should enter into permanent
relations with that country, and with every other throughout
the world. The hon. member far Youghal said we could
do with the present law, and the hon. member for
Stafford quoted several cases in which diplomatic intercourse
bad been carried on between the two countries. That was
precisely the case of the government, who contended that the
very necessity of things compelled us to establish an inter-
course with the court of Rome, by avowed and acknowledged
channels, instead of having a great country like this driven
into holes and corners, and obliged to do stealthily what it
would be more becoming to do openly. (Hear, hear.) With
regard to the assertion that this bill would tend, he knew not
how, to put the Pope under such restraint as was imposed by
Napoleon, Pp that whatever he did would be under duress,
he could only say that both the late Pope and the present had
extremist d a desire to have diplomatic relations established
between thi. country and Rome. Those protestants, than-
fore, who raised that objection showed themselves more
apist than the Pope himself. (Laughter.) ladeed, the
Pate Pope never allowed the opportunity of receiving any
distinguished Englishman to pass without expressing his
regret et the want of diplomatic relations between the two
counti in. They were not likely, therefore, to do any vio-
lence to the Pope by this measure, which he hoped the
house would pass, u simply enabling us to hold that political

intercourse with Rome Which we'hold with every other
country, whether Christian or Mahomedan. (" Hear,
hear," and cries of " Divide.")
Mr. GORING moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. ANSTEY explained that his distinction was this. that
under the present law we could have diplomatic relations
with the Pope of Home as a temporal but not as a spiritual
sovereign, and therefore this bill in his opinion was broutht
is to enable ministers to establish in some shape or other spi-
ritual relations between themselves and the see of Rome.
Mr. BRIGHT said the bill had not one feature in it which
any rational man could object to unless that which compelled
the Pope not to send an ecclesiastic to this country, which
was just the very thing he wculd not have done if left to
himself. Hon. gentlemen ought either to let this bill pass,
or take upon themselves the responsibility of the government
of the country. (Hear, hear.)
Capt. HARRIS declined to nut himself under the gene-
ralship of the bon. member for Youghall—(a laugh)—and
thought that it they put off this measure to next session, they