The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEA T.

H(111Se. tIF L4IRDS.—MONDAT, JULY 31.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at fly. o'clock.
PRIVATE. BUSINESS.
BECONtI RIeADI SGS. New Grand Canal Company (Ireland) (
mod
2)- Edinburgh Police (amendment and dation of seta and
police and watery Improvement) ; New Rosa Poet and lisartour ;
'TiIRY) RE Aril NGS.—Dunhar Customs, Water, and 'Wismar Duos
Amendment; Cal dolman Railway (branch across the Clyde and Glees
gow station) ; Aherarou Market ; Wiahaw and Cohn... Railway (de-
viations, conneetom brooch, and improvement) ; bah muniep.tity
rzeucc Trusts, Markets, Paving, and titaltary Impeovements;
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
SECOND RV ADING.—Com Markets (Ireland) nun.
CONI trri:Ks..—Deelarat,ry Sun s ; Wolverhampton Curley; Ad-
mlnhurto iota al Cantina) Justice ; Mils
TLIIRD HEADINGs. —II:Oland Road and Bridges fiioutbuul) ;
Trustees Relief ,Irelsntl) ; 11111..
COMMONS' AMENDMENTS CONSlDERED.—lncumbered Es-
tates (Ire and) Rill.
COMMONs' REASONS POR DISAGREEING TO LORDS'
AMENDMEN feS CONSIDERED.—Evicted Destitute Poor (Ireland)
PETITIONS.—By the Fart of HARROW BY, from several places,
nattiest the sale of spirituous Betimes on the Lord's day.
NOTICE. Ole MOTION.—Scers or Imo too—Lord HEOCOGAM,
on Thurnlay neat, to move for a return of the proclan”tions el the
Lord lieutenant, and call the attention of the house to the state of
Ireland unless tranquillity was previously restored.
COPYIIOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
The Bishop of LONDON asked the noble and learned
lord on the woolsack to allow this measure, which involved
some very important points, to stand over until next session.
He did not ate why the Charitable Trusts Bill should not
also be postponed, because that was also introduced at a late
period of the sessian, and there wan no time now for its dis-
cussion. Ile might also mention that many of his right
rev. brethren could not be present again during the re-
mainder of the session.
he LORD CHANCELLOR did not apprehend that
there could be any difficulty in passing the measure during
this session, as all the public business of importance had been
disposed of. It there was a strong kelieg, however, against
preeeeilins farther with the bill at this late period, he would
not press it.
Lord STANLEY condemned the practice of postponing
measurss in their lon:slips' house until n., late a period of
the session. Three months airq the government had been
asked it they intended to Drina in a bill to regulate
charities, and now, in July, for the first time (having then
stated that they hoped to take the matter up), the noble
and learned lord had laid the Charitable Trusts Bill on the
table, which was an important measure, and which it would
be impoesille to discuss fairly now, inasmuch as many of
their lordships had left town, especially those connect,
with Ireland. lie hoped the government would not, for the
remainder of the session, prets forward important measures

introduced for the first time.
Atter a beislconvereation,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that, considering the
period of the session, he had carefully avoided introducing
any maters in the bill which would lead to controversy.
Thera were parts of the measure which it would be very in-
eonveniant to postpone; and really he believed the noble lord
(Stanley) had not read the bill ; when he did so he had no
doubt that he would see the nett-m.4;y of its b ing passed.
He repeated, that he was ready to strikeout whatever might
be likely to lead to much discussion and opposition.
IRISH REPEAL MAGISTRATES.
The Earl of OLENOALL wished to ask whether enrtain
magistratss for the borough of Kilkenny who attended a
deputation to Dublin from some clubs in that baromth acre
still in the commission of the peace ? if not struck off,
tl.ese eltOr'st maaistrates might swear in special constables
of their own sentiments.
The Margot. of LANSDOWNE was not aware that any
alteration had been made in the magistracy of the borough
referred to, ~ut the whole matter was under consideration.
SAVINGS BANKS.

In reply to a question Iron a Noucz Loan,
The Ma,quis of L.kNSDOWNE said it was not the
intenti n of ~he government to introduce any measure on
the subject of savings banks without previous inquiry.
EVICTED DESI ITUTE POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
The Ms qui. of CLANRICARDE, it moving that the
cos'miroo reasons for dissgreeiqg to the Lords' amend-
ments he considered, said he hoped that the hone• would
not insist on their amendments, because the House of Com-
mons, with scarcely any dieen•sion, and without a division,
had (Inland them to lie inesp, dient.
Lord MONTEAGLE thought, without the amendments
of their lordships, the bill would he very inefficient.
Aber a frw words from the Earl of GLENOALL, which

were inaudble in the gallery.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE 'Paid that he could not
understand why any noble lord should think it better to
give notice to the relieving officer 12 hours after the persons
had be a disponereed in a large union which might enteral
for a distance ot 50 miles, instead 0198 hours previous to such
eviction.
Alter a short discussion, the motion for abandoning the
Lords' amendments was screed to without a division.
INCC BERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the consideration of the
Come amendments in this bill. The noble and learned
lord proceeded to explain the effect of the several alterations
made in the bill by the House of Commons, more especially
as to the clauses for the security of tenants in reversion, the
power to a 11, on certain condition., without the intervention
of the Court of Chancery; the securities against collusion
and fraud ; and coecluded by calling on their lordships to
agree to the amendments.
Lord STANLEY expressed his surprise that a measure
which had been introduced by the government, on the au
thoritv e f the Lard Chancellor, shou'al have been so ma-
terially tut. red in the other house, not in consequence of any
ooidtien there offered to it, hut at the instance of the
SoliciterCie neral; and that now the Lord Chaneelb r hould
propose toot their lordsiiins should agree to amendments
which would go to set aside all those sake aniseed defences
which the noh:e and learned lord hod previously declared
were indispensable. This was a most unsatisfactory course of
Initiation as between the two houses. (Hear, hear.) This
bill materially and deeply affected every proprietor in Ire-
land. It was passed in its original she: e in the
presence of almost every Irish peer (when es'ates were
mainly concerned), who had the opportunity of statieg any
objections that might be entertained against it. Now almost
all the Irish peers and member of parliament were absent
in their own country attending t.) than important 'luta s
which the present state of Ireland imaosed upon them. It
was under these circumstances, when not more than five or
six Irish p rs were present, that the house was called upon
to assent to this bill in its altered farm—those who wire
chiefly inn rested in the measure having no notice, and being
in satire ignorance of the important changes which had been
made in it. He believed there was not a member of either
house who would be prepared to pass the bill in its present
shape, sod apply it to England. (Hear hear.) He knew not
whether titter was precedent for curb a course; but if not, it
was an occasion on which precedent might properly he
established; but it did appear to him that when a
bill was returned from the Commons at so late a period of
the session, so ahercd in principle as well as in detail, that it
was in point ot fact a new hill—it was not an unreasonable
prole skim' that the amendments should be refer.ed to a
*elect committee, to inquire into and to report to the house
their technical and practical effect. As the bill stood, it ap-
peared to him that the perpetra• ion of fraud would be easy.
There was no sufficieet provision for giving notice to the
parties interested to prevent the estate being sold without
their knowledge, and being forced into the market at a time
when all Irish property was materially depreciated at a prica
much below its ordinary value. It was true the re was a pro
vision against the estate being sold for less than a fair selling
price. lint did that mean ten, twenty, or twenty-live year:
purchase ? Then any incumbrancer having a mortgage of
2001. on tile estate, =alit apply for a sale. How easy would
it be unds r this clause for • party to buy up a number of
small mortgages on differeet estates, and by bnnging themall
into the market at the same time, reduce the market value,
and enter into a collusive sale with a willing purchaser
for a price much below what would be necessary to pay off
the incumbrances the only check being the certificate of
the govern lent °Nicer appointed by the Lord Lieutenant,
that the pri^e offered was a fair one according to the market
value. It did appear to hiss that these amendments re-
quired a more eon and accurate exsmination than it was
possible to give them in the house, and though he should
not then make any motion, yet it he should find any dispo-
sition on the part of their lordships to adopt his suggestion,
he should be prepared to move that the amendments be re-
ferred to a select committee. His object was not delay, but
believing the object ot the bill a good one he was desirous
of making it as t fficient as possible.
The Earl of WICKLOW observed that the reasons put
f'rward by he noble earl against agr eine to the amend-
ments, viz , the abseece of the Irish peen, was equally appli-
cable to his motion for referring tae bill to a select com-
mittee. (cleer, hear.) He did rot feel justified, for
the reason steed by the noble lord, to refuse his resent to
these amendments, which, while they in many respects im-
proved t'.c measure, obi not in a'y wayaiff, et its principle.
Lord MONTEAO LE thought it bad that their lordships
should be obliged to swallow all the Commons' amendments
without being allowed the smallest time for consideration.
(Hear, hear) In his opinion the best count for their lord-
ships to take would be the appointment of a select committee,
as suggested by the noble lord opposite.
The Earl of DEVON should support the second reading.
The Earl of ELLENDOROI3OII found it impossible at
that period of the session, and in the absence of the
great majority of the Irish peers, to consent to these
amendments. The house had already agreed to the principle
of giving every reasonable facility for the sale of incum-
hired estates, hut the principle of the amendments went to
giro unreasonable fa ilitics for selling up the Irish landlords.
(clear, hear.) He saw with deep regret a disposition grow-
lag up to get rid of the present race of Irish landlords.
(Hear, hear.) He must say that, in his opinion, no body of
men had been subjected to greater difficulties through
which they had conducted themselves on the whole much
better then he believed English landlords would have done
under the circumstances.
The Earl of OLENGALL thought it impassible that
government could refuse the proposition of his noble friend
for referring the hill to a select committee. He ILA a great
many amendments to r repose, and if government persisted
in pressing the bill he should give it every opposition per-
mitted by the forms of the house, even at the risk of being
considered factious. lie looked ut on the bill as a scheme of
robbery, sad surely faction was justifiable against robbery.
It was a mast cruel scheme to drive the estates of the
Irish lan'Uurds iuto the market, at a time when it was noto-
rious that nothing like a price could be obtained for tteas
He believed the measure was turd on mainly by a party
of persons who had a scheme ati ier fur purchasina up the latd
at a low rater and then retailing it at considerable advance.
He believed tt to be a scheme at the head of which were s x
quakcrs—(u lanah)—and he hell in his hand a paper whict
bad
,been circulated ammg their lordships, and which was
strongly confirmatory of his suspicions. It emanated from the
quaker., and strongly urged upon their lordships to pass the

bill with the Commons' amendments. Now, what business
had these English quaker' to interfere with an Irish bill? (A
laugh.) They were great capitalists, and their plan was to
buy up the land at a low price to sell again. The only
hope he had for safety was, that in the present circumstances
of Ireland, the estates would find no purchasers.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that so far from its
being the desire of the government and of the supporters of
the present bill to injure or get rid of the actual landlords
of Ireland, their only object was to strengthen their hand,
and to better their positions by enabling them to dieincumbei
their landed property. At present the Melt landlords were
unable to discharge their duties praperly to the occupants of
land in Ireland. Enormous tracts of territory were suffered
to remain uncultivated which the present bill would bring
into immediate tillage. The noble earl opposite misconceived
the objects of the bill and the powers which it conferred
He (the Marquis of Lanadowne) must oppose,the proposal to
send the bill before a select committee. The object of the
amendments introduced in the other house was to lessen th:
cost of transferring incumbered estates, sodas these costs in-
variably came out of the owner's pocket, the alteration
was in so far a boon to that class.
' Lord STANLEY vindicated himself from the charge of
having sought to frustrate or delay the present bill by
f.ctious opposition. With respect to the opinions of the
noble anu learned lords on this bill, he would he satisfied it
the noble aed learned lord on the woolsack would rise in his
place and say that it was a measure which in his opinion it
would be sole add prudent to extend to landed property in
England and Scotland.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that with respect to
the bill, it was the same as when it left that place to go to
the other house of parliament. The only alterations ware
that another and less expensive so well as less tedious method
of effecting the object of the bill was introduced in lieu of
the machinery proposed by the framers of it.
Lord LANGDALE said that the hill was only to be justi-
fied by the necessity which had called for its introduction.
At the same time, it was probable that it would fail in
effecting the object proposed.
The question was then put: That the Commons' amend-
ments be taken into consideration.
The house divided.
Contents 27
Not Contents lO —l7
The house then procesded to take into einsideration the
amendments, which were agreed to.
The house adjourned at half-past nine.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, JULY 31.
The SP RAW took the chair at 12 o'clock.
I'RIVAT6 RUSIN EaS.
SECOND READlNGS.—laweett's (or .tlderson's) Estate ; London
Cite small Debts; Bob,
lIIIHD READlNGS.—Clerkenwell Improvement; Root Anglian
Railways (Ely and Huntingdon Railway, extension of time); Ldiv -
burgh and Gtostow Railway and Edinburgh and liabgate Railway
Amalgamation; Bills.
LORDS' AMENDNIENTS CONSIDERED.—StirIing and Dunferm-
line lialway (amendment and relation); Worcester Turniiile
Trust; Bill..
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
SECOND READINGS. Highway Rates; Insolvent Debtors'
Court; Clerks of the Pear (Dublin); Fisheries (Ireland); Loan So-
cieties; Proclamations or Fines, Court of Common Plea, ; Dublin
Politic; Arierssionable Manors Gommimioners (Duchies of Cornwall
and Lancaster); Bins.
COIIMITTLES.— Farmers' Estate Society; Poor Law Charges (No.
2); Fees (Court of Cluiticery); Paymaster General*, Office Consoli-
dation; Bills.
REPORT.—Oanitabulary Force (Ireland) Bill.
Ith:ADING s.—ltegr,stuciive Loan Institution (Ireland);
Juseuir Olfersh rs ;Ireionti ; lend TIM Coinninvionen. Ranier,;
Regent's-quadrant Colonnade; Rum, Re., Daiwa Parliamentary
Elmiors;
' On the motion that the order of the day be read,
Mr. ARKWRIGHT protested against these 12 o'clock
sittings, which wire, generally, continued until 2 o'clock in
the morning.
HIGHWAY RATES BILL.
This hill was read a scooted time, and ordered to be com-
mitted to-morrow (ads day) at 12 o'clock.
FARMERS' ESTATE SOCIETY (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Sir G. 61113 Y the house went into com-
mittee on this hill ; and on the first clause being proposed,
Mr. ft. I'ALMER said he wished to move an amendment
of great importance, namely, the omiiiir nof certain words in
the firth line, and to add at the end nt the clause, " That the
Land Clauses Consolidation Act of 1845 should not be lector-
punted with, t.r form par. of, this act, further than should be
hereinafter provided " On comparing the present bill with
that act, he arrived at the conclusion that it was ins
proper to apply the greater portion, and unnecessary to
apply the remaining portion of it to this bill. The'.
principle of that art made it expedient to interfere
with the usual rifhto of owners of property for the public ad- '
vantage, awl accordingly enabled the owners of land to con-
vey and bind the f, e Pimple with that view. lie conceived
Plot the greatest inconvenience would arise from introducing
that principle into this hill, which was nut to enable a public
company to execute any Rico n act for the public benefit, but
to eroclo:e the oat misers of a joint stock company to deal in
land, aid so to proratee, according to the intentions of its
promoters. the subdivision of land in Ireland. And yet,
arrneff with the compulsory power now proposed, they might
purchase all the land in Ireland, and it would be a new and
unprecedented thing in the history of legislation if parlia
au, nt vested them with such a power. He therefore pro-
posed that the Land Clau-es Consolidation Act should Lot
operate further than hereafter specified.
Mr. MONSELL believed that it was intended to take only
the enable and not the compulsory clauses of that act.
Sir G. GREY hoped the hon. and learned gentleman
would not obj, et to some of the enabling powers of the Land
Clauses Consolidation Aot being incorporated with this bill.
The 35th clau-e would remove the hon, and learned gentle-
man's objection to this clause, and he would therefore suggest
a postponement of it until they came to the 35th.
Mr. PALMER had no objection, but lie was of opinion
that no part ef the act referred to was necessary for this bill.
Mr. HENLEY thanked the hon. and It limed gentleman
for the consideration 11C had given to this bill. (Hear, hear.)
It nave a railway title to the company, and enabled them to
confer that title on threw purchasing trom them.
The first clause was then postponed.
The Hauer s up to 14 were agreed to.
On CLAW 14 a discussion arose as to the insertion of the
following provision in the clause, " Provided always that no
lot be sold er disposed of in such a way as to enable more
than ot.e ptrson to be the owner ur occupier of more than
30 acres."
Mr. P. SCROPE objocted to the insertion of the word
occupier ; he moved that it be omitted.
After some ilieeussion, in which Mr. CILLDBTONE and Mr.
F. O'Coxsou took part,
The house dividel—For the amendment 3
Against it
The proviso as originally irroposed was then agreed to,
and ordered to stand part of the bill.
Col. DUNNE moved the addition of a proviso rendering
the support of parties ejected from the company's lanes
chargeable on the rates out of that land.
A'ier a conversation the proviso wan withdrawn, with the
uniterstending that it should he proposed as a substantive
clause on bringing up the report.
On the question that the cause as amended should stand
part of the bill,
Mr. S CRAWFORD said that the extermination of small
tenants was the rule and principle of Ir oh landlords. (No,
no.) It war, therefore, moat essential that the house should
guard against encouraging or stimulating this desire. Small
occupancies might be attended with evil; but this was not
the case with small proprietorships.
Clauses 15 to 17 were then agreed to.
On clause 18, which inflicts a penalty for dividing the
farms into smaller quantiries than 30 acres,
Mr. HENLEY augur:sled that this prevision would open
the door to greater evils than it would remedy. It would
cause the farina to be held in common by a number of par-
ties, and would allow of tneir being incumbered to any
extent.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the evil might be
met by the insertion of the words, " otherwise than by
descant." . .

Col. DUNNE said the clause had been ingeniously de-
vised to prevent the subdivision of land in fee, hut het aced,
owing to the inveterate habits of the people, that It would be
for a lone time inoperative.
Mr. P; SCROPE objected to the addition proposed by the
Attorney-Oeneral, me the ground that it would operate as a
premium Co parties not to make a will.
Mr. M'CULLAG II placed butt Bile faith in the policy of
settling by statute the size of farms. Ile did not object to
sales being n.ade by the cainpany of thirty acres, or any
other amount; but to say that the original allotments
never should be broken up, or changed in their dimenrions.
did nppear to him needless and nugatory. He was for free
tr.,de in Land—(cries ot " hear ") ; but by free trade he did
net mean that ee.mpanies or landlords should be held wholly
irresponsible for the use they made of the power which, in a
er.untry like Ireland, the ownership of landed property con-'
(erred upon them. He was of (minion that there hail been
of late tar tee many evictions for the safety and credit of
property itself, to say nothing whatever of the welfare or
contentment of tho people. (Hear, hear.) lie never would
coeseut to increase this power, or to stimulate its ex, rcise.
The landlords of Ireland, as a class, did not de-
serve the indiscriminate censure that had been
sometimes dealt out against them. The majority of
them he believed were free from any charge of reckless or
' cruel diseossessian of tenantry. But he must c intend that
when they were considering the measure of power to he
given to a company professedly formed as a profit.ble specu-
lation, they ,hould remember the exceptions as well as Ito
rule. A corAra:ion was 'aid to have no soul ; and a com-
pany had only a collective conscience. (Hear, hear.) The
individual landlord wee. reatrnined by feelities set sympathy
with the sufferings and pity tor the privations of those whom
ho had known for years, and whom he desired to get rid of.
A company could be influenced by no such consideration,
and would be restrained by nothing but prudence. lie
would therefore desire to furnish some check upon its exter-
minating powers, and he knew of none more efficacious or
reasonable than that of making t!,e lands from which
persons bad been evicted by the company .specially chsrge-
able for their maintenance for a certain period. (11. ar, hear.)
Ater a conversation, in which Mr. O'Coicson, Sir J.
Y. DULLER, and Mr. H. Pat vett joined, the amendment was
agreed to.
Mr. O'CONNOR, u one who had devoted much attention
to the subjset of small firms, expressed his belief that the
clause preventing subdivisions would operate to deter parties
who had small capitals from investing them in land.
Mr. MONSELL said the sole object of the bill was to
create a rlass of yeomanry in Ireland, which existed here
and in o'her countries, but were there entirely unknown.
De clause as amended was then agreed to,
Clauses 19 to 26nn. mr.T.3.4l.toqind.the.finu.se resumed.