The Express.
London, England, 1848-06-23 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING. JUNE 23. 1848.

Mr. LABOCCILARR desired the peat ne.ent of the
measure, as being likely, In the opinioa of the Railway
Baud, to operate injuriously upon the general railway
interert of the ministry, U prematurely assented to.
The experieace of ,the working of the mixed gauge
upon • lengthened line was not yet suf ciently. ma-
ture to enable the house to pate • final judg-
ment on the principle. And until this experience
was attained, it would be in the highest degree unadvisable
to sanction the extension of the principle. The double gauge
was now being tried on two tolerably long lines— the ktugby
and Oxford, and the Wolverhampton, Oxford, and Worces-
ter, sad the experience upon these railways would enable
parliament to determine whether or not the same principle
sheald be extended to other lines. lie moved that the third
reading be postponed till Monday, in coder that the clauses
relating to the double gauge might then be struck out.
Sir E. HAYES supported the recommendation of the
select committee in favour of the bill.
Sr It. H. INGLIS would went to the amendment.
Mr. E. DENISON said that the consent of the house to
Sew measures would involve • breach of the pledge which
bad been given to the Buckinghamshire railways, that the
railways to Birininghem should be upon the narrow gauge.
Mr. MONTY, and that the rule of the house to support
its committees ought not to be departed (rein on the present
occasion, which gave no grounds fur an exception to the
rule. lie considered thtt the double gauge had been suffi-
ciently tried for the purposes of this bill.
Dir. HUDSON said he had the honour of presiding over
the six mike upon which the double gauge was at work, end
he conaidered that it was impossible, from the complication of
the system, to work it satisfactorily. (Hear, hear.) With-
out erupt:tieing of the committee, he begged to exprew an
opinion that, in its search for information on the subject, it
would not have done ill to have called before it the engineer
of the Midland railway, on which these six miles of double
gauge were being tried. (Hear, hear.) Ile was of the cm-
viction that the double gauge could not be worked upon any
length of line. He found it all but intolerable, even upon
six miles of railway ; it would be perfectly intolerable upon
a greater distance. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. cuitisTOPllElt said that the committee hail ex-
amined both the engineers, and then consent d the Govern-
ment Surveyor before they came to any decision upsn the
clauses. That decision was in favour of the two gauges
being worked upon the line of rail.
Mr. HUDSON denied having made any personal allusion
to the hon. member for Whitby.
Sir H. VERNEY (amidst cries of "divide"), said that
the experiment of the double gauge already tried upon the
Gloucester and Cheltenham Railway was not hostile to its
being made with fleeces, upon • longer line of rail.
The house divided—For the third reading .... 147
For peep ming the bill .. 72-76
The bill was they read a third time and passed.
REFORM—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. COBDEN, in the absence of Mr. Hume, postponed
the adjourned debate on the motion tor a reform in the
House of Commons from this day (Friday) to Friday next,
which day the government had consented to give up to the
hon. member for that purpose. 1
WRIT FOR HORSHAM.
Mr. GORING moved that Mr. Speaker do issue his war-
rant to the clerk of the crown to make out a new writ for
the electing of a burgess to serve in this present peril anent
for the borough of Horsham, in the room of John Jervis,
Esq., whose election has been determined to he void.
Mr. AULIONBY (amidst cries of "divide ") said that
the decision of Wednesday in favour of issuing the writ for
Cheltenham had paced the house in a contradictory position
with respect to the suspended writs.
Scrjeant TALFOURD should vote in favour of the motion.
Sir C. BURRELL bore testimony to the honourable
character of the electors of Horsham.
Mr. HAYTEIt said there was ample time for the bill of
the hon. member for Flint to be passed into a law Outlive
the present session. lie should vote against the isue of the
writ tor Horsham, in conformity to the two previous deci-
sions come to by the house with respect to this came borough.
Mr. BANKES said he should be ashamed of the House of
Commous if, on account of two slight caves of treating, they
could be induced to refuse to issue the writ for the borough
of Horsham, lie was only sorry the writ had been so loug

delayed. -
-
The house divided—For the motion ,54
Against it...... —SO-4
The writ was accordingly ordered to be inued.
REMOVAL OF JUDGE MONTAGU.
Mr. ANSTEY, in moving fur copies of the despatches re-
ceived at the Colonial-office, from the Governor of Van
Diemen's Land, relative to the removal of Judge Montagu,
asked the hon. UnderSceretary fur the Colonies how it was
that the receipt of the important despatches in question had
been kept front his knowledge fur three days alter their
arrival t
Mr. B. lIAWES sail that the hon. member made a
much ado about nothing. The despatches in question bring
very important, and involving I questions of consider-
able intricacy, had been retained by the other under-colonial
secretary for consuls ration (he being a lawyer), before they
were sent to the noble earl at the head of the department.
The return was then ordered.
DIFFERENTIAL DUTIES ON RUM.

Sir L. O'BRIEN liegged to ask some of the hon. gentle-
men on the treasury bench to answer a question which he
had to put to the right hon. baronet the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, whom he did not see in his place. The question was,
whether it was the intention of the right hon. baronet to per-
List in the differential duty of 4d. on rum ?
Mr. B. HAWES begged the hon. baronet to put his ques-
tion tomorrow (this day), as no notice had Seen given of his
intention to put it.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that be had given the Chancellor
notice of his intention to ask the question six hours ago.
SUGAR DUTIES.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day for the adjourned debate on this ques-
tion being read,
Lord O. BENTINCK took that opportunity of presenting
a petition from the West Indian agents in this country com-
plaining of the int tliciency of the government proposition
towards affording any relict to the West India plant, re.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave th,. chair,
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that as he had 'ailed in getting. an
anew, r to what he deemed to be a most imoortant question,
he should feel it his duty to move the adjournment of the
house.
Mr. SPOONER seconded the motion.
Mr. HAWES intimated that the hon. baronet had not
given the usual notice of his question.
Sir L. O'BRIEN.—I gave a written notice to-day.
Mr. HAWES said that that could hardly be considered a

sufficient notice.
Mr. C. ANSTEY said that the intention of the hon. bozo-
net to ask the qa slice was notorious.
Mr. F. MAULE said that the caws was one of a very un-
precedented nature, and one which he could not very well
understand. (Laughter.) Surely the hon baronet did not ,
mean to persist in a motion which, if carried, would cause ,
the loss of an evening for a most important debate. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. C. ANSTEY persisted in thinking that the ,
Chancellor of the Exchequer had had sufficient notice of
the question.
Mr. SPOONER said that the facts were, that on that ,
morning the Irish members had an interview with the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and put to him a question
respecting the differential duty on rum, to which they could ,
get no answer. It was then determined that the question
should be asked in the house, and due notice was given. Lord
J. Russell entered the house.) Perhaps as the noble lord
at the head of the government was now present he would
be able to solve the difficulty.
Mr. ROBINSON.—Perhaps the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer might be in his place in the course of the evening ;
if so, the better way would be to proceed at once with the
debate. (No, no.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—With respect to the question which
has been asked, I have in the first place to observe that it
does not immediately affect the question before the house.
It is part only of a plan of which 1 laid the outline on a for-
mer evening. As soon as my right hon. friend has made up
his mind he will inform the house. (A laugh.) lam not
prepared to make any detailed statement now, but I think it
would be hardly fair to defer a debate on the sugar duties
until the answer had been obtained.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that many votes would depend on
the answer, and, therefore, he was unwilling that the debate
should proceed until he had obtained it. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL.—I am not going to make any state-
ment with a view of securing the hon. baronet's vote. We
made the proposition which we thought best for all the
interests concerned. The hon. baronet will act according to
his own views; we will only propose such measures as we
think best for the public. (Hear, hear.)
Lord G.BENTINCK.—In my opinion the house is placed
in a most extraordinary position. (Hear, hear.) It is pro-
posed to go into committee, to consider the government
plan respecting the sugar duties, but half of that plan re-
fers to the differential duty on West India rum. Now we
hear that, unknown to tne house, something like a bargain
has been transacted out of doors between the Chancellor of
the Exchequer and the Irish members. (" Hear," and "no
no," from the treasury benches) Now, the West Indioni
are not satisfied with the concession originally promised, and
in any case the house is not in a condition to decide until we
are in possession of the whole government plan. It occurs to
me that the subject started by the hon. baronet the member
for Clue goes to the very gist of the whole question.
Lori J. RUSSELL said that the noble lord had greatly
misunderstood him. What he (Lord John Russell) had said
was that government, in their propositions, would be guided
by the public interest alone, and the noble lord pretended to
understand that something like a bargain had been entered
into with certain Irish members. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who had
just entered the house) said—The facts of the cue are these:
1 yesterday heard that a deputation of Irish members wished
to see me respecting the differential duty on rum, and on
other matters, respecting which I had previously had an in-
terview with the Irish distillers, namely, an allowance on
wastage when taking British spirits out of store. My hon.
friend opposite (Sir L. O'Brien) and five other Irish mem-
bars waited on me and stated their opinion, founded on
representations they had received from the Irish
, distillers, that reducing the differential duty on rum from
ninepence to fourpence would be prejudicial to the Irish
spirit trade. I heard the deputation with deference, stated
that I would submit their views to government, and that,
• as to the second portion of their request, that respecting the
wastage, I had fur some time had it under consideration, and
, would, if it could be safely done, concede it. It was certainly
• intimated to me thst the votes of these gentlemen would
depend on my answer, and I Raid that I had prepared what
I believed beat adapted for the public interests, and
' that as to the votes, hon. members must take the course they
thought fit ; that I could not make terms, and that I had
given them the only answer in my power. (Hear, hear.) I
came down to the house early to answer the question of
which I had received notice from the hon. beet., but as a
railway debate was going on I returned to Downing-street,
, where I have been busily engaged ever since.
Mr. DISRAELI said that the Irish members had not as

Yet resolved the answer they required. (Hear, hear.) The
government had announced their plan and should adhere to
it, and not WI upon the house to debate a question, a most
important feature in which was confessedly still under cabinet
consideration. He thought it but sight that the house
should he informed ea to what really was the government plane
Mr. C. BULLEIt complair.ed that the noble lord the
member for Lynn was most reckless in his imputations on the

government.
Mr. BAILLIE said that one of the Irish members had in-
formed him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had told I
them his views were in concurrence with theirs, and that he
would use his ioftuence with his colleagues to bring them
round to a similar opinion. (Hear.)
Mr. HERBERT, as one of the deputation which had
waited ou the government, denied that any bargain bad
been entered into.
Mr. NEWDEGATB raid it appeared to him that some-
thing very like a hirdaio had been g,ing on, notwithstand-
ing the virtuous indignation of the hon. member for Lis.
keerd. (IL ar, hear.)
Mr. HOUSMAN did not think the explanation which had
been given at all satisfactory. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FAGAN denied that any bargain had been proposed
or acceded to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said thatthe
point respecting which he had expressed his concurrence
with tnc deputation was the wastage, and there was an hon.
member behind him who could confirm Isis stats went.
Mr. J. O'BRIEN confirmed the stir ement of the Chancel-
_

for of the Exchequer.
Sir L O'BRIEN raid that the right hon. gentleman still
left the house without information on the must important
point.
Tho CHANCELLOR of tho EXCHEQUER could givo
no further answer.
Mr. URQUHART was strongly of opinion that a virtual
bargain had been going on between the Irish members and
the right hon. Is ironet.
Sir It. INOLIS did not think the question which they
had Leen discussing for two hours wits so connected with the
resolutions, as to r. quire the expenditure of so long a time.

(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BEItNAL differed entirely from his hon. friend, and
considered that a nearer ata:milation of the duties on rum
had a very close connexion with the question. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. STUART said the question they lied to consider
was, whether the remedy proposed by the government for
the relief of the West Indies would effect it, object. flow
could they go on to debate that question without knowing
whether the government would adhere to their.proposition ?
Mr. LABOUC HERE was sorry to be obliged to interfere
in a discussion which had been already too long protracted.
(blear, hear.) The government, in listening to the repre-
sentations of those who had objections to urge against a mea-
sure proposed by the government aliening the trade of the
country, had hut followed all former precedent, and his
right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had only
adopted the usual course in giving consideration to the state-
ments of those whose interests were affected, and in saying
that he would lay the representations snide to him before
the cabinet, and give the ponies the opinion of his colleagues
as will as his own. II this was to be made a pretext for
stopping a bill, they never could come to a decision on men.
suns affecting the trade of the country. (!tear, hear.) The
question of the duty on rum was en impotent part of the
subject, but it was vain to say that they could not discuss
and decide the question of the scale of the duties on sugar
without hay.ng an absolute assurance, on the part of the go-
vernment, whither the duty on rum was to be 4d. or 6d.
Mr. OUULBURN said the question before the house was
in many respects different from a pure question of trade.
The question was how they could afford relief to the suffer.
ing West Indies, and before they came to a decision it was
important to know whether the differential duty on rum was
to be 4il. or Gd.—that is, whether an additional duty of 60
per cent. was to be allowed or not. (Hear, hear.) Without
being informed on that point, he did not think the house
could confidently pronounce an opinion on the whole plan.
Sir 11. tVILLOCCiIIBY thought the government should
say whether they would adhere to their original provaition.
Lord J. RUSSELL 'aid that his right hon. friend (Mr.
Labouchere) had given the proper reply to the statements
which had been made. But as tne question stood at pre-
sent, the proposition of the government, as originally pro-
posed, must be considered as the question before the house.
The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn.
Mr. fIOULBURN wished to know from the noble lord
whether he had considered the suggestion of his hon. friend
the member for Liverpool with regard to the introduction
of a temporary bill for the continuance of the existing sugar
duties tor a limited period. He thought it scarcely possible
with every activity on the part of that house, that the bill
could receive the royal agent before the sth of July, when
s'te duties would he further lowered.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that whets the house came to a
decision on the motion of the hon. baronet (Sir J. Peking-
ton) lie would then consider the proposition of the hon.
member for Liverpool.
Mr. CARDWELL said that where a bill was a money
bill the house could only take one step every day, and even
if the house came to a division on Friday night—for it was
not expected that the house would divide that night—the
bill would afterwards have to go through seven other stages
before it reached the Ilouse of Lords. If the noble lord
waited fur the issue of the debate before the house before he
took the first step in introducing a short hill of the nature he
stated, he would not have it in his power to pan such a mete
sure before the sth of July, without an unprecedented viola-
, tion of the standing orders of the house. (Hear,)
No member of the government having replied,
- • -

Mr. GLADSTONE said be hoped the government would
give an answer, as the subject was important. (Loud
cheers )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
government could increase as well as diminish duties upon •
vote of that house.

The adjourned debate was then resumed by
Mr. MOFFATT, who said that the effect of the measurs.
proposed by the government would be to increase the cast of
sugar to the people nt this country without bringing any
corresponding relief to the West Indian planters. For the
first year the cost to the country would be 250,000/. ; for the
second, 500,0001. ; for the third. 750,0001. ; for the fourth
and two subsequent years, 1,000,0001., making for the six
years that the bill was to be in operation a total cost to the
country of 4,500,0001. With respect to the reduction of the
differential duty on rum, he thought it was a just and wise
measure, and would prove a boon to the West India interest
without doing permanent injury to the distilling interest
in this country. Ile approved of the 500,0001. that was
to be given to promote the immigration of labourers,
but it would prove of little use unless the relief intended by
it was promptly afforded. The increase of protection given
by the proposition was more than was supposed, because
the duty on the sth of July next would be 14s. for colonial
sugar, and 18s. rid. for foreign. By the proposed duties it
would be 13s. for colonial and '2os. for foreign, making an
increase of protection from 33 to 64 per cent. That was a
material increase, and one which was likely to have consi-
derable effect in diminishing the supply of foreign sugar to
this country. Ile would not object to this if the measure
was likely to be effectual in raising the condition of the
sugar-producing colonies. But he did not think
it would he productive of bent lit to them. In
his opinion there was no justification for the measure as
one of remedy for the West India distr, ss. All the witnesses
who were examined before the committee concurred in stat-
ing that the great difficulty the planters had to contend with
was the want of labour. It was the duty of the govern.
ment to supply labour to the colonies, at any cost, parti-
cularly as it was the government that disabled them from
having a sufficient supply. He thought that the colonists
allowed themselves to be too much frightened by the cheap-
ness of slave labour. Statements had been made that sugar
could be produced in Cuba at rit. 6d. a cwt. But the truth
was, that the cost of producing yellow sugar there
was from 13s. to 16s. The latest accounts from Brasil
showed that the cost of yellow sugar there ranged frost
14s. Id. to 18s. 8d , and that the planters lost money at thews
prices; for the very last mail brought the intelligence of the
failure of one of the principal manten and slave dealers
there. (Hear, hear.) Great complaints had been made
with respect to the classification of sugars, which had proved
ruinous to some of those engaged in the East India
sugar trade, and the doing away with that classification
would prove beneficial. Great complaints were also
made of the cost of the respective governments of the
Mauritius and the West India colonies. In 1832 the cost
of the government in Demerara was only 56,0001. ; but, in
1847, it was 226,0001. (Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the
government had given no indication of an intention to re-
duce the cost of government. He was also sorry that they did
not propose to carry on some large improvements which had
been suggested. For the reasons he had stated he could not
support the proposition of the government. (Hear, hear.)
13. tore he sat down he thought it right to bear his testimony
to the untiring exertions and the great zeal and activity dis-
played by
.the noble lord who conducted the committee.
He only wished that the West India planters would exhibit
a little of the same zeal and activity. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said that though he should feel it his
duty, in the course of the remarks he was about to make, to
express his dissent in important particulars from the plan of
tl e government, and though he felt unable to vote for their
proposition, yet he hoped in so doing that there was nothing
inconsistent with the admission he must frankly make, not
only that he believed the government were actuated by a
sincere desire to deal justly with various interests, but that
they had to consider and treat a question of extraordinary
difficulty. (Hear, hear.) Few questions could come before
parliament involving such a variety of complex considera-
tions, or one with regard to which the utmost patience, the
utmost care, and the utmost ability might find such immense
difficulties in producing anything like a satisfactory solution.
He felt himself under considerable difficulty, in consequesee
of the forme of the house. His general objection to the
government scheme was that as a measure of relief it tees
utterly insufficient, whilst as a measure of finance it wee
open to objections utterly insurmountable. But to them
views he could not, secorcheg to the forms, give adequate
expression. lie could not vote a negative to the Speaker
leaving the chair, because that would convey disinclination to
reconsider a very difficult question ; nor could he vote for
the resolutions, beanie that would convey opinions he did not
entertain. But these difficulties did not prevent his fully
explaining his views upon the question. Considering it as it
affected the West India colonies, he was bound to say that
he entirely adhered to the principles on which
he bad always acted on that question. He could
not found his argument on the mere consideration of
protection. Hs thought they were working out a great so-
cial problem in our West India colonies. It was impossible
to consider this question without considering the position of
90 per cent. at least of the population of the islands. But
he held also that whites in the West Indies had a claim of
the most distinct manta me the humanity, equity, and jus-
tice of the house. (Hear, hear.) He thought they had a
right to ask for public money as sufferers at the hands of the
legislature. bathe cameo( the apprenticeship we had abolished
a system which was as much a part of the compensation to the
West India planters as the twenty millions of money voted

to them. Even in Jamaica no option could be said to have
been left to the planters at to whether they should or should
not abolish the apprenticeship two years before the statu-
ary period for its abolition. Then, as to immigration,
the West Indians now find the people of England willing to
vote money for that purpose. But the Wept Indians juAly
observed that they had been agitating this question for 12
years, and that every restraint and restriction had been in-
terposed. We at first prohibited wholly the removal of
' coolies from the East Indies. Then we fixed the period for
which contracts might be made with them at no more than
one year. The noble lord, to his honour, tried hard to
restrain that sort of philanthropic movement, but ho was
beaten by the opposition of members who were now the
ministers for colonial affairs. (Hear.) The West Indies now
said you offer us whit we asked to, late: we have been
exhausted by the efforts of the intermediate period. There
could be no doubt that this was true ; and on these grounds,
therefore, the West Indies had, in his opinion, a g iod claim
upon the state. Ile now came to consider the mod, in which
her 111.ijesty's government proposed to meet and satisfy this
claim. As he laid before, he did not think the amount of
relief by any means adequate to the necessity. Their object,
he thought, ought to be, to induce the people of
this country to civo a fair and full trial to the sys-
tem of free labour es carried out in our colonies. Ile

did not think it was well to adopt that principle with-
out going to the full length that justice and policy per-
mitted. Then came the question as to the frm
in which relief should be given. Some members thought it
was desirable that we should retrace our steps with regard
to the question of protection. He felt, however, that there
would be great difficulty and delicacy in imposing again a
very high protective duty. He could not but think that a
great reaction 'with regard to protective duty would dimi-
nida very much the care and the caution with which estates
were worked and labour employed in the West Indies. He
was not of opinion that it would be wise to take a backward
course with regard to the scale. But, at the same time, he
should prefer to the government plan a simple suspension of
the existing a, ale of duties. He thought it by no
means dejirable that we should have minute subdivisions
and alienations of descending scales. The proposition we
wished to make was not she sort of proposition given by the
man who wished to teach his house to lire upon a bean
a-day. Our proposition should rather be that of encouraging
the importation of labour and machinery. (Hear, hear.)
lie must also say that he thought the reduction of the duty
upon colonial sugar from 14s. to 131. was most impolitic as a
question of finance. In consequence of that minute distinc-
tion the noble lord, it was said, was about to prohibit once
again the use of sugar in breweries and distilleries. This added
very greatly to the impolicy of the measure. Then, again,
he was not by any means satisfied with the declaration of the
noble lord respecting vagrancy and squatting in the colonies.
The noble lord said they would be prepared to receive sug-
gestions on those points. It was rather the duty of the
Under Secretary for the Colonies to propose such measures
than to sit in his office, as the noble lord had pictured him,
in order to receive suggestions." (Hear. hear.) Then as
to the loan. He could not help regretting that an exclu-
sive direction had been given to the employment of the loan.
The mind of the West Indies was quite sufficiently directed
lo the subject of immigration relatively with other questions ;
and be thought the money might be as usefully applied
in improvements as in immigration. He then came to a
very important part of the subject, upon which he must
say that he did wish Borne intention had been intimated
on the part of the government to give the colonial legisla-
ture a greater discretion with regard to their expenditure.
In Britiab Guiana, he believed, it was absolutely declared
that one third the revenue was swallowed up in the ex-
pense, of government. The expenses of colonies in
which there were no local governments were con-
siderably less than in those which had such an
established authority. The sacriti'e we were going to
make, whilst it would not save a fraction to the colonial
legislatures, would, on the other hand, add, beyond all mea-
sure, to the burdens of this c ninny. Would there be any
increase of consumption sufficient to compensate fur this by
raising the revenue in Great Britain? Be believed not. He
had observed that whenever such reductions of duty were
made a very small increase of consumption followed. Next yesr
they would lose 240,0001., unless consumption increased ;
that was the immediate sacrifice. They were going to
exclude sugar from the breweries, It was mid 12,000 tons
were consumed in these establishments. That would
involve a loss of 150,0001. more. Then, in future
years this loss might be expected to he still greater. (Hear,
hear.) And under what circumstances was this great sacri-
fice proposed 1 If they looked at the finances of the country
everything was deficiency. Their financial state was most
serious, and it was growing more and more so every day.
They would not be doing their duty to the country without
looking that part of the question in the face before the ex-
piration of the session. They must provide relief for the
colonies, but they must previously see how that relief was
financially to be afforded. lie knew how unpopular a pro-
lomat of relief to a class interest was ; but when members
took him to task, as they probably would do,
for advisin7 it, let them meet the claim upon
the ground of justice, upon which alone he rested it. Let it
not be said that when we set the great example of emanci-
pating our colonies, we took all the honour to ourselves and
left all the cost and responsibility to the West Indians.

Mr. J. WILSON said he had listened to the speech of
the right hon. gentleman with no little interest, and much
surprise. Nothing could be more curious than to reconcile,
if it were possible, his objections to the measure with the
vete he proposed to give. He should be very glad if be had
to meet no greater objections to the plan of the
government than the objections of the right hon. gentleman.
What single reason had he a‘signed for voting for that 10s.
duty which was the object of the amendment? The right
hon. gentleman thought much of what were called \Vest
Indian grievances; but what grievance had the West Indian
complained of a few year' since that had not been wholly or
partially removed? The prohibition of purchasing except
in British markets was removed—the rum duties had
been reduced—the juice of the cane was admitted—
and the West Indians were permitted to refine in
their own islands. But it was complained that immigration
was checked. Why, hon. gentlemen would not recollect the
facts. As far back as 1840 facilities were given for immigra-
I lion, and almost every year those facilities were increased.
There were really no grievances, therefore, which had not
been removed, or which were not in course of removal. But
at the same time it was thought that the distress, from what-
ever cause arising, was very severe in the West Indies.
Measures of relief were to be applied to it, and the problem
they bad to solve was in which way they could apply them most
irefully to the colonists and least detrimentally to the mother
country. In the course of the debate reference had been made
to the state of our West India colonists, and an alarming
picture was drawn of their condition because the average of
the sugar produced in the two years 1846.7, in Jamaica, was
225. lid. per cwt. But the year 1846 was a year of great
drought, and a year, consequently, when the crop was much
less than the average. He knew cases of estates in Jamaica
where sugar was made at 4s. 6d. per cwt., Bs. a cwt., 9s. a
cwt., and 10i. a cwt.; and he believed in not over
favourable years the coat of production had been
not above an average of 16s. a cwt. In 1846, however, there
were estates where the sugar cost more than 31. per cwt..
and he verily believed that the drought of that year had more
to do than almost any cause with the depression in the W, et
Indies at the present time. Now, looking at Demerara and
Essequibo, he held a return in his hand showing the num-
bers of estates told in consequence of bankruptcies, and it was
curious that during the last two years the number of such
aides was much less than during any of the six preceding.
This was a fact of some importance. Let him mention
another cause for the depression in the trade. In conse-
quence of the admission of sugar to breweries and distilleries
large imports had been made of foreign sugar last year, and
the consequence was, • very considerable reduction in price.
We imported in the first four months of last year 79.000
boxes of sugar from Cuba, whilst in the same peeled of this
year we only imported 8,000 boxes, showing that last year
the foreign trade was unduly stimulated. (Hear,
hear.) From 1831 to 1841 the state of the sugar trade in
the West Indies was very depressed ; but from 1841 to the
press at time their produce had been annually on the increase.
He believed there was indubitable proof of the progressive
improvement of the West Indies. (Laughter.) Gentle-
men might laugh, but he believed such to be the fact.
The re-establishment of a system of protection would be
most injurious to the colonies. Had not there been a strug-
gle going on in them for effecting a reduction of wages,
and were not hon. gentlemen aware of the partial success
that had attended thou efforts? In the colonies of Barbadoea,
Antigua, and Guiana—(no)—the reductions in wages
amounted to from 25 to 50 per cent., and would it be wise
in the face of these efforts to reduce the cost of cultivation
to re-establish protective duties, and thus to afford to the negro
labourers a pretext for insisting upon their former high rates of
wages ? Nothing could be more prejudicial to the \Vest
Indies than to follow such a course. The great difficulty, as
he apprehended, in dealing with the colonies was in stimu-
lating consumption, so as to keen pace with their constantly
increasing amount of production. The consumption of
lunar within the last three years had increased from
207,000 tons to 290,000 tons, and this was one of
the direct and palpable consequences of the reduction
of the duty in 1845 and 1846. Suppose, instead of reducing
the duty it had been increased, and the production of sugar
had gone on at the same rate as it had done. What would
have become of the 70,0001. surplus tons of West India
sugar thus thrown upon the English market ? Could they
have been sent into the foreign European market to com-
pete with Cuba and Brazilian sugars ? Then again, let him
point out to the house the fact that there were vast tracts
of virgin soil in Trinidad and the West India
islands which had never been cultivated, and which
were capable of producing any quantity of Boger. In
Trinidad one-seventh only of the land was cultivated as yet ;
whereas, the sugar lands in Cuba and Brazil were worn-out
soil, and not able to compete with the rich alluvial soil of the
West Indies. The same was true of the land in the Bast
Indies. The possibility a restoring protection under these
facts was out of the question ,• and if, by encouraging a
system of emigration, additional labour was thrown into the
West Indies a freak stimulus was given to production,
what, he might ask, would be the condition of the planters
generally, if with an increased production of one half of the
present amount, there were to be no home consumption
equal to the additional quantity thus thrown upon the
market ? How, therefore, could the planters expect that the
home consumption would keep pace with the production
unless at price. which placed auger within the reach of the
mass of the people ? and bow could those prices be kept
within reasonable limits if increased protection was to
be granted on those sugars which were the principal
article of consumption in the home market;? There
was not • man who had sat on the Weat India
committee, and who took a candid view of the wholt ques-
tion, but what was persuaded that, take what measures they
would for giving protection, the West and East India colo-
nies would annually produce more sugar than the consump-
tion of the kingdom could keep with. Therefore, he
said that there was no possible safety for the British planters
but in throwing them open to their rivals in sugar-growing,
and thus stimulating their powers of production to the at-

meet. Entertaining these views, he was not able to ~
port the motion of the hon. bait. the member for DreitwaX
for the first effect which his proposition would produce,
would be to raise the price of sugar, and thus to diminish the
consumption of. that article. Moreover the preposition, if
adopted, would injure the reveuue, either by diminshine alt
ditty received on West India sugars, or else by street],
ening the quantity consumed. And on .ine or other of these
grounds he, as a member of the West India committee, felt
it his duty to reject the motion. lie would now protest to
Fay • few words on the proposition of the government, and
to endeavour to show how far it was more advantageous
than that of the protectionist ie rty. The first object toxic),
government sought to attain was to give such no*.
ragement to the growth of sugar in the BritiA pal.
stations as would promote a superabundant supply
for home consumption. The mode of best effecting
this important object was, in the epin'on of the goy, meant,
by means of a gradually decreasing duty, and thereby gra,
dually stimulating consumption. Looking at the increase,
in this respect, that had resulted from the reduction of tits
duty in 184.5 and 1846, the government was, in his opinion,
acting wisely in enabling the consumer to look distinctly fro'.
ward to the day when all protection ceased in foto. The
right hon. gentleman the member for Oxfotd Unireraity ese
stated that he shoull have preferred suspending the dues,
for six years from the present time to making a perineum
and gradual reduction in them. But 1:e knew, as all who
heard him did, that the price of sugar was regulated
by the amount of the foreign duty, and not by tee
colonial duty. The suspension or the duty for Rix
rears would cause the consumpion of that necessary
to remain stationary and stagn-nt fur that space of taw
uud thus there would be no means whatever left the govern,
ment of providing for the consumption of the steadily
proceeding annual inertue in the production of free,
labour colonies in the British dominions. Besides,
there was another objection to the right honourable
gentleman's plan, which was, that et the end of
the six years the sudden reduction of the duty Irma
paralyse the sugar market, and throw the whole trade into
confusion. The proposition of the government was there,
fore far preferable to that of the right hon. gentleman.
Another of his obj..ctions to the government scheme
was, that according to his view of the Chancel,
lox's statement tho government was about to ex.
elude sugars from being consumed in breweries
and distilleries as soon as tt.e plan proposed should cone
into operation. He was glad to correct this inisapprehea.
*ion on the part of the right hon. gentleman, and to inform
him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer merely proposed
to shut sugar out from breweries es soon es the ditty fell to
that degree at which a loss would be incurred by its lapel.
ceding lush, and thus reducing the receipts of the revenue
from that source. But this would not bees long as tie
duty was at or above 12s. ; therefore three yam
yet remained before sugar would he thrown out of up
m breweries. In distilleries it wculd continue to la
used. With respect to the duties on colonial rem, the
planters had already been relieved to the amount of 50,17004
by the recent reduction, and taking into account me foram
reduction of sd. per gallon, the whole amount thus presented
to the West Indians was no less a sum than 110,0001. Tine
a,:ded to the whole amounts of former reductions, would
swell the gratuities presented to the planters to
between 300,0001. and 400,0001., taking the whole
export of rum from all the colonies into the account. He hi
felt great surprise when he heard the hon. baronet emelt.
make such statements as he had done with respect to dia
cost of producing sugar in Cuba, Bahia, and Porto Rico, be.
cause the returns from consular authorities in otlvryila
prinxd in the report of the We't India committee, showed
that the figures of the hon. baronet were not correct. Ths
consul general for Havana, Mr. Crawnird, stater
that the cost of producing sugar there, including
export duties, was 17s. Gd. per cwt., and this without freight
and charg. a, or the cost of replacing negroes. In Bahia, Mr,
Consul Porter states the cast of production to be 17_ ,s. 6d
with the same limitations ; and at Porto Rico Mr. Cooed
Lindegren gives the cost of production as 12s. 6d. pee
cwt., without adding anything for replacing slaves,
interest of capital and other charges, The ave.
rage cost of producing sugars in thew three slave
colonies, therefore, instead of being G.. 100., as stated by
the hon. baronet, was in reality 15s. 10d., and if estimated
without adding the export duties, which might at any time
be repealed, the minimum coat of production in the
three slave colonies was 14,. 81. per cwt, and
that was to be looked at as extending over all
the three qualities of sugar produced in those colonies.
Ile regretted that he had so inadequately espresseal his opi-
nions. There were many topics which he had unavoidably
emitted, but at that late hour he could not think of lours
detaining the house. (Hear, hear.) lie should oily say
(unlit r that he felt firmly convinced that there could he no
more effectual way of encouraging slavery than to restore
the protection of colonial sugar.
On the motion of Mr. W. MILES the debate was ad.
journod to to-morrew(this day).