The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

augmentation of the salary of masters. Special cases then
came to be considered ; and it then appeared clear to me,
that if these special owes ware multiplied, and if the rule of
connexion with one of the two societies was departed from,
the question in which we are now involved would arise, and
it would be necessary to decide whether, under the head
of special cases (it being shown that for the popula-
tion of the place, the means of education were wholly dcfi.
Meat, and that in consequence a large number of
children were in the most degrading ignorance ; that the
education of tl.at portion of the community was in a state
quite unworthy of the country and the see)-1 say it ap-
peared to roe that if those special cases ware allowed with
respect to one class of dissenters, it would be quite impos-
slide, on any principle of lei:Rees, impartiality, policy, oe
religious liberty, to make an invidioust exception with respect
to any one class of tb: community. (Cheers.) That rule
steadily maintained while I had any share iu the delibera-
tions of the committee; that rule wen adhered to by my
colleagues; and though we had then the power of con-
sidering " special cases," we voluutarily folluwei the exam-
ple of our predecessors in the government, and rigidly
abstained from the exercise of that power, thinking that the
rule could not Inc departed from without makimo it known to
parliament, and feeling that, in the midst of the religious
dissensions of this country, any attempt at that departure
would give rise to a struggle much to be deplored. (Hear,
bear.) However, the preeent government, pressed by the
notorious tact of the inadequacy of the means of education,
and it. effect upon morals, has thought that the time has
arrived when some relaxation rf the rigour of this rule has
become absolutely necessary. This led to the proposal last
year of the order in council which we are now du
cussirg. Am I sorry that the Weslevans are admitted
to partake of the aid of the itite ? For from it. I
rejoice that they, who have done so much without govern-
ment assistance, should now receive that aid which I am
confident they will use to advantage. But this I am bound
to say : if you depart from the ierict rigour of the rule, and
admit that dissenting bodies are entitled to aid from the
at to in conducting their respective schools, in connexion
with their respective creeds, I cannot—considering the posi-
tion of my Roman catholic fellow-subjects—recollecting not
only that they are my fellow-christians, but that their chris-
lion doctrine is the christian doctrine professed and believed
by the larger portion of the civilised world in which chris-
tianity exists—l cannot, for one moment, assent to the doc-
trine that the Roman catholics should be an exception to the
extension of the grant. (Loud cheers.) The paition occu-
pied on this particular point is the least tenable of any. It
is the revival of the old Roman cutholic question under the
most unhappy circumstances. (Hear, hear.) The Roman
catholics were admitted to equal privileges and rights Mother
respects long before they were admitted to seats in this house,
from which they were only excluded by an oath which, in
their consciences, they could not take ; though apparently
a flimsy, it was an effectual, barrier against their admission
to parliament. I tun not prepared to argue as to the inter.
pretation of the words " bible," " testament," or " scrip-
tures," in the order of council of 1839, as meaning the
authorised version ; I will assume that it was intended the
authorised version only should be used in the schools to
which aid was granted ; but that is a most unfortunate
ground on which to rest the exclusion of the Roman catho-
lics from this aid. (Hear.) What is the authorised version
of the scriptures—and what is the version used by the Roman
catholic* ? It is that bible from which Boman and Fsinelon
drew their texts, when they preached ; it is that version
from which Pascal drew his immortal "Thoughts." (Hear,
hear.) And shall we, in our protestant zeal, set up this ver-
sion as the sole barriet against the participation of the Roman
catholic; in the grant? (Hear.) Not only have the Roman
catholics no difficulty in complying with the other requi-
sitions of the order of 1839, but they are prepared to show
that the very terms used admit their claim in the strongest
manner. As hon. member has alluded to Mr. Langdale. I
have had an intimate acquaintance with that gentleman
from my youth ; he is incapable of deceiving any one ; his
word is implicitly to be received. (Ilear, hear.) I have had
various interviews with him on this subject, and he assures
me that in such places as Manchester and Liverpool, and even
in this metropolis, large maws of our Irish Roman catholic
fellow-subjects are congregated in great destitution, and
utterly deprived of the means of education. And Mr.
Langdale assures me that, with respect to " special came,"
with the exception of the single requirement of the autho-
rised version, no body of dissenters would hare so little diffi-
culty in proving irresistibly their title, under the rules of the
order in council, to a full participation in this grant. (Hear,
hear.) Be this as it may, I certainly am of opinion that an
effort should at all events be made, by commu:iication with the
Roman catholics, as well 131 other classes, to ascertain whether
an accommodation may not he effected on this point, and that
terms may be made with the Roman catholic body for this
purpose. (Hear.) I do not gather from the speech last
night of the right hon. the Secretary of State, that he is
opposed to this view ; on the other hand I believe he is
decidedly wilting that such accommodation should be
effected. (Hear.) Then it becomes a question of time.
(Ilea:, hear.) And I ask
.myself, is it just to the Roman
catholic, to postpone the decision of this question ? (Cheers.)
I can see some expediency in ppetponing it ; but I am bound
to say that I can see no justice in it. (Cheers.) If we were
only about to pose a vote of 100,003!., and if no new rule
was to be established, I could very well comprehend the
postponement of this question to a later period. But this
vote, taken in connexion with the order in council of 1846,
is an adoption by parliament of an entirely new principle.
(Cheers.) Various estimates have been formed of the con-
tingent cost of this vote ; no one estimates at much less than
a million in a short time. (Hear.) I do not speak this grudg-
ingly; I shall rejoice if the spread of education in conse-
quence of this grant lead to so large an expenditure for a
purpose so beneficial. But if the house, after what has
occurred, passes this vote in connexion with the order in
council, it is not only a virtual but a positive adoption of the
order in council with all its requisitions. (!leer, hear.)
All dissenters are, by that vote, admitted to par-
ticipation. It is not left doubtful whether the Roman ca-
tholics can possibly be admitted or not. The goverument
tell you that the terms in the order in council, " Bible,"
"Testament," or "Scriptures," mean the authorised ver-
sion; the Roman catholics have an insuperable objection to
the use of that version ; that is, neither more nor less than
to avow that, under the new system, extended to others in
a spirit net only of toleration, but encouragement, the Ro-
man esthetics will be excluded from all benefit. (Hear.)
And what is the prospect held out to them ? Thee at pre-
sent they are not to partake, and that at some future period,
which is left indefinite, their single case, insulated almost
iavidiously, is to be taken into the consideration of the
house, When is the right time ? I say the right time to
do justice is now. (Cheers.) And I never can believe that
it is politic to postpone any conception which justice, equity,
the spirit of toleration and of freedom, alike imperatively
demand. (Hear.) I do not wish to press the matter further.
1 have stated frankly my opinion. I shall not vote with
the hon. member for Finsbury. I think the course taken
by the government, in all respects save this question, of the
participation of the Roman catholics, is not only ratifiable,
but prudent and judicious. I think it is infinitely
better, in the present state of religious feeling in this coun-
try, to proceed by order in council than to attempt by act of
parliament a uniform system, which would not be in accord-
ance with the public sentiment, and would be perfectly
imposihlc. I think greet good will arise from the course
government propose to pursue; but I cannot purchase that
goad at the expense of what I consider an act of injustice to
my Roman catholic fellow-subjects. (Hear, bear.) I
warmly advocated the system of national education in
Ireland, where extracts from the scriptures, for the age of
both protestants and catholic., were substituted for the scrip-
tures themselves; sod the late government proposed and
carried through parliament a measure with respect to col-
leges in Ireland where secular education only is given. I
do not advocate that system fcr this country; I greatly
prefer the course pursued by government; and I entirely
approve of their plan, with the single exception of the exclu-
sion of the Roman catholic,, whom I think entitled to the
favourable and immediate consideration of the govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was very considerably relieved,
after these three nights' debates, from any apprehension be
might have entertained an to the course of the discussion.
The great objection stated in front of this measure had been,
that the state ought not to interfere with education; the
various petitions against the measure had declared that
principle; the 500 delegates amembled from various parts
of the country had laid it down as a rule that the state
ought not to assist in educating ; or, rather, ought not to
educate the people. But what did he find when the matter
came under the discussion of the house, and when he had
invited attention especially to those objections ? The hon.
gentleman who had moved the amendment, and who might
be considered as the organ of the congregationdists and the
baptists on this occasion—(great laughter)—had in no
part of his speech declared that principle, or defended the
ground, that the state ought not to educate the people. He
(Lrd J. Russell) bad expected to hear the same sort
of indictment as was preferred against the clerk of
Chatham before Jack Cade : " Here is a fellow
whom we have found, who can read and write ;
aye, and cast accounts; and, menetrous, we found him set-
Ong a boy his copy. Oh, the villain!" (Laughter.) But
this charge had hardly been taken up by any one except the
hon member for Durham. Every hon. member that lad
spoken that evening, though each finding certain faults with
this measure, had all agreed that it was the duty of parlia-
ment to assist in the education of the country. (Hear,
hear.) Then it was too much to ask the house to inquiet"
whether the measure " unduly increased the influence of the
crown, invaded the constitutional functions of parliament,
and interfered with the religious convictions and civil rights
of her Majesty's subjects." Such a resolution as this could
only be construed as a censure on government; and yet
some hon. members said they would vote for it
only for the sake of inquiry, and not at all as
blaming government for the measure they had
introduced. Bat the hon. member for Durham had de-
clared himself very strongly against the interference of the
house, and in rather ominous words he had alluded to cer-
tain other consequences which must flow from the adoption
of this resolution. Ile also said that the government, if
they had dared to do so, would not only have sent the church
inspector to the church schools, to make inquiry as to the
religious prineriples there taught, but would also have rent
him to the dissenting schools to make the same inquiry.
What had there been in the conduct of the government to
justify this imputation? (Hear,
hear.) He (Lord J.
Russell) had taken his part, along with others, in freeing the
dine ntersfrom disabilities to which they had long been subject.
When they found them oppressed by the restraints and dis-
abilities of the test and corporation acts, they proposed and
succeeded against a very adverse party in repealing these
acts which imposed these heavy disabilities on the dissenters.
Finding afterwards that they were obliged to have their
marriages celebrated in churches, which was a hardship on
their consciences, they carried through both houses of par-
liament a measure by which they were freed from such obli-
gations, and which allowed them to contract marriages freely
according to the obligations which they could conscien-
tiously undertake, and according to their own forms and
ceremonies. (Hear, hear.) Now, he would ask what''

the honourable member for Durham Aad done obit%
t
i rthTwheigesehn twmohlineutterurfigrescre hisidthhbte.ehneteorefillmiigngionutiths opinion d Imn
tem
them t
of
it
is(tucwrhpueasseenthtle)
dissenters ? There was another ground of opposition tegm
to this measure, wherein it was stated that the gu:eati¢eat
countenanced error as much as truth; that they were my;
pared to go PO far that all distinction between •ruth -
sad
error would be lost; and that their principles were evidently
entirely latitudinarian. When this objection was taken, it
was evident that there was a preparation for great opposidog
to this measure on the part of many of tse
dissenters, because there was no endowment pro
posed
for the promotion of Roman catholic schools; and
for his part he could not believe that many of those, at., in
certain resolutions had stated that they considered that it
was a greet hardship and a great injustice that Roman m.
tholic a shads should not come with in the,provhions ofthe gram
were among those who were strongly opposed to the Nay.
nooth grant. He found among the names of thou olio
voted against that grant the name of the hon. member foe
Durham, and he could not hut think that he, amoncd °thee.
would have objected to that which he considered to h.
aid by the state—to that which lie considered to Le a relieit
error. lie must, after what had been doted by- tps
hon. baronet the member for Southwark, end the eight Inn,
gentleman who had just spoken, enter into so:, fortp"
tsplanathin of their conduct with rev:et to ths motive
The former hon. gentleman had entered very much Mto de.
tail, end had alluded to some corresponderco which pad
taken place between the government and the Wesley,
body. There was one passage made by the pavements i 4
grisly to the letter which was addressed to the For, mumt
in cote equence ef an unauthorised communication mods to
that body by Lord Aetiley, which he not only omitted to
read, but of which he omitted all notice whatever. [Here the
noble lord read en extract from the letter of the Coramittee
of
Council clearly showing that though they did not, by the
minutes woieh they had drawn up, intimate any inteditu
to include the Roman catholic' within the sratisions
ag
the grant, they did not preclude themselves from (swain
into a fuller consideration of the matter, so far as Mo
Roman catholic' were concerned, and if they thought proper
of including them in the provisions of the grant. ThAclrrge,
continued the noble lord, freed them altogether from the
charge which keel been made against them of endcavoun4'
to persuade the dissenters into the belief that no aid Ida
be given to Roman catholic schools. The epee ch which vu
lost spoken made it nicessary for him to recall to the wool-
tion of the house the occurrences of the year 1839. They
proposed at the commencement of that year that there
should be model schools, and when the plan was framed, he
particularly urged that the Roman catholics should rot be
excluded; and words to this tffect were inserted, ths: itt
regard to the Roman catholic pupils the Damn seniors of
the bible may be used. These wore. excited great alum
and opposition in the country ; and it was the 'pinion of
the government that the only course to be adopted vas to
withdraw the motion as uue which was not likely
to meet with the approbation of the people. But if he recol-
lected rightly, no one was so strong in oppcoition to the pro-
position which was made with respect to:he Dinar version of
the bible as the right hon. gentleman who last addressed
the house. They on the oa.i.c ground. alandoned the in-
tention now, however desirous tilt sr may be to extsnd II is
grant to Rogan catholic schools, because they Li bred that
it would be opposed by the people of this country, an pref..
resce to giving up all hope of aaristing education altogether.
That consideration shut the Roman catholic, titans the years
1839, 1810, and when the Whigs were in office, but it
likewise shut them out in the several years from 1041
Ito 1816, when the right honourable gentli man ism
in the committee of council. (Cheers.) It did stern to
him that the right honousable gentleman acted on
the rule which was laid down in the years Ittls or, l islo.os
else, if he thought that it was a great injustice that henna
cutholies should be etcluded, why did he not pre, the
matter en the committee of council during that pemod?
(Cheers.) Instead of that, the idea was never suggested to
the house, and the question was never in any shape brought
before them. Their opinion was, that the passibility of
aiding education would be very much endangered by sigh
a preposition, and they therefore thought that some delay
should be interposed before the Roman catholic wheals should
be introduced into the system. How stood the matter now?
The committee of council had declared to the Wesley's,
and the Roman catholic", that they should be mewed a
any future period to consider the matter, and to admit ths
Roman cathohcs. It was desirable that in 1846 they should
be prepared to change the rule, but they added this addl.
banal element of difficulty to those which they had before
to contend with. It. mast say that he; did believe, me
Mg the opposition they had to encounter, that if they had
revised th, it proposition of 1839, or if they had made a wino
rate provision in the menths of December or February lad
for the }UMW catholic schools, that they should have beis
unable to carry the vote they now proposed. (Cheers.) Hs
' had seen in the sours° of this debate a great exhibitiona
liberality, and had noticed in more than one instanee a Mug
feeling on the part of certain parties that the Romaucatholies
btih ,sey tio tobe ttha ought
laboreuireieL.undeornceertainm.deliaofhirlitiliesef,
from
nuld be which
schools similar to the national schools in Ireland. Iles
attempt was once made in Liverpool, and the mestants
were educated in one department and the ettkolies is
another. The school was conducted with great harmony sod
catholic population. Lord Stanley it was that introduced
with great advantage to the poorer perms of the Ronan
the system into Ireland. And when he was no doubt the
best authority on the subject, Le was asked his opinion as
the es:xi:fin:Lent being made here, he said that though the
was entirely unfit for Ireland. The popular opini msystem was one which was fit to be introduced in Ireland, it
England was against the system, and the teaching seas at
length discontinued, and the school was put under a different
ripme. They had this year, also, an instance of the meat
unwillingness of the people of this country tr relieve the
Roman catholic*. There was a bill brought in the other
day, to relieve the Roman catholics from penal*
which, as it appeared to him, it was quite obvtam
ought not to be imposed on them, and against the re
newel of which, no decent argument could be used. There
were parts of the bill which, in his mind,
were questionable, but they could be expunged, w
altered in committee. The right hon. baronet, the member
for Tamworth, spoke in favour of going into conamitteem
that bill, and so did the noble lord the member for hilts
Lynn, and the whole of the members of the govemmeat
voted in favour of it, yet notwithstanding the second reader
having been carried by only a majority of 3, there was s
majority of 38 against going into committee on it. (Chews
train the opponents of the vote.) 116 voted in the minority
on that occasion, and in the majority on the first occults.
The right hon. member for Dorchester was not there on list
hat occasion.

Sir J. GRAHAM.—I win here on every other occasion.
Lord .1. RUSSELL (continuing) inuing).—lle was not there, and
if he had been, he would have seen how strong the feeling d
the house had been nn the subject, and how many member,
expressed their great unwillingness to go into committees
such it hill, and how very difficu't it would have been to per-
'wide them to give any further concession to the Ream
cathulirs. All ha would say was that with such prod
befor.' them it was clear that the minutes which they made
in 1839 should not be altered in 1840. He did Oct agree
with ti.e right bon. member for Dorchester that there ins
any reason why the Roman catholic, should be included ie
this vote, and it was far more likely that if they were is.
eluded in the next or any other vote that the h'sii-e or Ms
country would agree to it. He was not quite sure either then,
Roman catholic bishops would sanction the terms of the nee
Ile knew that many of the Roman catholic, of Inlaid
objected to it. These, therefore, being the reasons whin
actuated the government, it became necessary to preen
the question in order carefully to consider any minutes epos
which sid could be granted; but he (Lord J. Ruseell)entinly
versed with his noble friend the member for the Wei
Riding (Lord Morpeth), and with his noht bon. Mesa°
the head of the Home Department (Sir George Grey). tin
thee could not have any permanont system without excluding
the Roman catholics. But the right hon. Inroad MP
site (Sir James Graham) and many other hon, umbel
who had spoken in the course of this debate nese&
to have forgotten that the government was not now pro-
posing a permanent scheme of education. They merely pre
posed to give further aid, in order to the improvement of the
schools. In 1839 they had introduced a very great altentee
in the matter of education, and that alteration was the sair
tion of a system of inspection of the schools reorient tbs,
aid of public money. Before that time, the votes grans
by parliament were disposed of under the authority, and by
the decision of the Treasury, and many sums of money bed
been given to schools, which, after a few years had falks
into decay, and the money bestowed upon them had bee
completely thrown away. He believed, however, that ne
system of inspection had prevented this, and Lad been mat
useful to the schools. According to the present eon,
it was proposed that the teaching by monitors alg
assistant teachers should be improved, sad that thi
situation of schoolmasters should be bettered; but it did set
follow that because this was done, the measure we bs
permanent, still lees was it &complete system. (lieu, her.)
Ile, however, trusted that as the vote came to be taken yele
after near eventually mine national
agreement would e
etrectid on this subject, than none more important could II
brought under the notice of the legislature. (lien, wsi),
Seeing the general, the almost univenal opinion of
house, that education ought to be sided by the nate,:i
trusted that the opinion of the country would in the ,
• enable them to bnng in a bill which would bring the ene
tion under the consideration, not only of tide. but 01 d•
other house of parliament. (Hear, hear.) But had chi
been wrong in not introducing a bill on then
sent occasion ? The variety of opinions which
been expressed on this subject eonfumed him in !!,'
conviction that they had done right in net introdernegf:
question by a bill, for let those who objected recollect or,
if it had been proposed to grant 160,0001. or 240,0001. eat •
the consolidated fund, by a bill, it would pat it out of SIP
power, except with the consent of the ether hoeseal
went, to alter the ayatem that would be thus
That had been the ease with respect to the grant to Net
nooth, which used to be an annual vote, but which, nos:j
act of parliament, was established in a manner which
not be altered except by the consent of both bane% '7l
(Lord J. Russell's) own opinion was, that the sitnabolls•
the question of general education was not ripe fbr 184112
proceeding. After nearly 50 years' experience
annual votes to Maynooth, the right hon. baronet
out
(Sir R. Peel) proposed a bill to make that
permanent; he (Lord J. Russell) had cordially 'OPT:
that bill, because he thought the time had come when sr'
=anent system, with regard to the education of the .
catholic priesthood, might be eatabliahed in Ireland, P:
the present question, like many others, took a long eltaat;
deliberation, in ripening, and in discerning, bath
house and in the country. He remembered a questios
it would hardly have been thought could have Fore::
much keenness of contention- ]t to the esto.f.,
mint of county courts. When ?dr. Canning
the noe.
of this house, the late Lord Althorp brought fonnud *a_
subject.. in several euceceding years, and endeneoneedato oilt-
bludi county courts, before which questions of O."