The Express.
London, England, 1847-06-04 00:00:00

sad by preperel to offer some plan of their own by which the
staid( dm oats system would be removed. He was sure
k piths goissat wish to effect an improvement in the
"Mei of prima discipline, and he trusted the efforts now
swede to achieve that most desirable and important object
willd be more efeetnal than any that had heretofore been
awls. Meer, bear.)
Loni MAIION aid he should deeply condemn himself, if
he ',prose-hod the discussion of this great question with any
feelings of party spite or political hostility. On the contrary
it Abided hiat the highest plessure to offer his tribute of
prime of and rupees for the great ability with which the
tilt has. barest egpeeite (Bir G. Grey) had discussed the
wrier is his spew* to-night, and in his letter addressed on
**Mit January, to his noble colleague Earl Grey. There
wee, however, some points of the plan to which he had
serious objections. In the first place he thought the comma.
tstt:n of sentence ought to be left with the crown, without
the interveniion of ejecta( parL.".ntent; sad most he objected
to any arrangement by which a sentence of transportation
should nominally be pronounced in a public court, when it
never was intended to be carried into effect. (Hear.)
All remembered the 11l effect produced, some years ego, by
passing capital sentences which were never designed to be
szecuted. It was, in fact, treating the courts with disrespect
to call on them to peas a sentence which they knew the
government would not permit to he carried out. He was
aipowd to think very favourably of the proposed preliminary
confinement on the separate system, for periods varying from
ix to eighteen months; but he doubted whether that system
bad yet had a sufficient trial to warrant its being generally
introduced and acted on. The reports of the inspectors,
with regard to its operation at Pentonville, were not ab-
solutely to its favour; it was by no means clear that it
might not tend to produce imbecility or insanity. As to
the existing prison accommodation, a recent return showed
that that accommodation was extremely limited. The right
had quoted two favourable places Woke-

hon. gentleman had quote.
field and Reading; but intim majority of placis, the magis-
trates were complaining of want of prison room.
Sir G. GREY said that Col. Jebb had reported that ac-
commodation might be found in the different county gaols
for 1,000 convicts, in addition to 500 in Pentland Island.
Lord MAHON end he must bow to so high en authority
as that of Colonel Jebb ; but he knew that in Scotland, so
far front there being a sufficiency of accommodation, them
was a want of 800 cells. But if there was only accommoda-
tion in the existing gaols for 1,000 convicts, how could 5,000
or 6,000 be provided for ? Another effect would be to in-
crease the number of prisoners in the hulks, in opposition
to the expressed opinion of this house. It was proposed,
also, that a system of public works should be established,
which he conceived would be similar to the system of bander
in France, so much deprecated by the statesmen of that
country, and the effects of which were so injuriously felt by
the inhabitants in the neighbourhood of Toulon and Mete.
There, the competition of this forced labour with the free
labour of honest operatives was an important consideration ;
and after so much had been said about the low wages of la-
bourers in Dorsetshire, the inhabitants of that eountymight
well object to the establishment of this system. He had
recently conversed on this subject with the Bishop of Tas-
mania, whose experience in Van Diemen's Land entitled his
opinion to great weight. The right reverend prelate thought
that the system of public works at Pentland Island, would
entirely neutralise the effect of the separate confinement
which ought to have come second, end the public works
first. The third feature of the plan was that, at the expira-
tion of their term in the public works, the prisoners were to
be sent abroad to our Australian colonies. This was a dif-
ferent proposal from the one which the right hon. gentle-
man had made in his letter to Earl Grey of the
20th January, wherein he condemned the project
of making large deportations of prisoners to Australia,
as tending to perpetuate the same state of Ithings which now
existed there. lie did not complain of the right hon. gentle-
man having altered his scheme ; he thought the alteration
an improvement—(hear, hear)—but it was desirable that'
the house should have had some intimation of the change
intended to be made. He gladly accepted the alteration as
removing many of the objections he had entertained to the
original plan. It was most desirable that the state should
decide early on the colony to which the convicts were to be
sent. But it was a most important question, how fur the
existing salutary fear of transportation was likely to be
diminished by the alterations now proposed ? Every one
knew that thus fear operated most effectually as a preventive
of crime : many instances of this were given by the
Rev. John Clay, in his reports of the state of the Preston
house of correction. It had been declared by high autho-
rities in another place, Lord Ashburton and Lord Den-
man, that the abolition of transportation would go far to ex-
tinguiah this salutary terror. A committee of the other
house had sat on this subject, but their report had not yet
appeared. He understood that the opinion of a great number
of gaolers and chaplains of gaols had been sought on this ques-
tion ; and they were uniformly of opinion that the alteration
would be most injurious. Ile regretted that Earl Grey
should have made this important alteration before these
opinions were obtained. The right hon. baronet had ac-
knowledged that the system proposed was by no
means free from difficulties and objections ; but
he had referred to the greater objections incident
to the existing system of transportation. But though
this system might have been abused, must it neces-
sarily be abolished r Was there no possibility of its being
modified and reformed? Might not transportation, under a
new form of discipline, be made instrumental to the reforma-
tion of the convict and the benefit of the colony ? Sir Jehn
Franklin, whom the right hon. baronet had quoted on the
evils of the existing system, had declared, in his despatch of
January, 1839, when Governor of Van Diemen's Lend, that
reformatory discipline could only be successfully conducted
in a new country where tabour was valuable; he therefore
thought the continuance of transportation necessary. It was
true. in a subsequent despatch, in 1842, he had expressed an
opinion unfavourable to the system ; but subsequently, in a
osaversation with him (Lord Mahon), he had declared his
sdherence to his opinion of 1839. Toe Rev. Mr. Fry, in a
Later from Australia, in August, 1846, said that he regarded
transportation as a blearing to the country. But, it might
be asked, if transportation cos an advantage to both the
aonvicts and the colony, why were such loud complaints
beard against it ? The noble lord considered that much evil
bad arisen from the inadequate payment of the functionaries
in penal colonies. A salary that might be fully sufficient in
• colony free from a convict population, was not enough for
the officers entrusted with the painful and onerous cares of
superintendence in penal colonies. He did not regard the
experiment of transportation as having been at all fairly
tried. No doubt great evils resulted in our convict colonies
from the disproportionate numbers of the sexes, but he
thought this evil might be materially modified by •
judicious application of emigration. (Hear, hear.) He
did not blame Lord Grey for the proceeding he had
adopted with reference to Norfolk Island, but he
entirely objected to the noble lord's policy in North Aus-
tralia. He felt it to be not the least blessing accorded us by
Providence, that our vast colonies in remote quarters of the
globe afforded us a means of giving reformation to our cri-
minal population ; and he deeply regretted that from the
want of judicious management this blessing had not fruc-
tified as it might have done. He would not divide the house
on the question, but he would protest, and he hoped other
gentlemen would protest with him, against a proposition
which he believed fraught with ruin and national disaster.

Sir W. MOLES WORTH said that there were two ques-
tions for the house to consider in reference to this subject—
whether transportation shoald be continued; and
mead, if it were abolished what system of punishment
should be introduced as its substitute. The noble lord who
had just sat down had argued for its continuance,
and contended that it could be made a good and
proper punishment. The noble lord complained that
the penal colony contemplated by Lord Stanley had
been abandoned by his padaissar. He (Sir W. Moles-
worth) undertook to show that transportation was
altogether a bad system, whether prostieed as the assign-
meet prindpie, or ea the probation and meal system of
Noefolk Island. He believed, farther, that no legislation
imudd make it a good system, and that every attempt to
Improve it must end in total failure. For these reasons, he
=that Bari Grey had acted wisely in refusing to
the system of penal colonies, and is adopting •
sperm of punishment, which, although in some »-
spa objectionable, was yet mars in coneenimae with
the tidings of the English people. The ease.
Edam of inquiry, which sat in 1837, had collected
moil information on this subject. The report of
Mee oematittee, whisk was unanimously adopted, MOM-
amlsol dr sherismeee of the assigathest symem. It had
bees tried dot the galenists themselves were anxious for
the verreblidemat of that system. He would ask how
• _ _ . _ _

ens that smarties borne out bj the hem? Last year, Mr.
Mann directed Capt. Fitzroy to get the opinion of the
Wed* on them*et. The latter gentleman referred the
Mint to the colonial legislator*, a select committee was ap-
petaled, and a report ens seat in. In addition to this, the
I=lireceived nonorisis, dined by 9,000 colonists.
report and nanseisle answered in deprecating the
=ll/be bract having read lengthy extracts
.be rant stain osisedel lIMMIW in support of this
dew st, the essestiew preneded to say, that if the
First Lord of tits Treasury had remained
use First
as Colonial lisentszy, he would have
eels eel the transperMiles swami within very narrow
links, but that midertamately Len Stanley succeeded him
sod neatly inereani die number of convicts. (Hear, hear.)
Theineble load hid enablined what was eallei the proba-
ton splems. under whisk convicts wen Int gent
to Worts& Wend, sal sabstensally Isenelliered to
Van Dieemm's Lassa. That roam had been proved
to be one which USW Null brads a good system
In order that the enema *sad week IPA sa cadent super.
inteadence was n eel • snielsst 4111MINd for labour.
Both Lord Stanley and . Oniassme are of Opinion that
than was no sonsfainay enines apes either point. On
the eeateary, cad the esss tiny "esidend proved the penal
ednin to be la a mot dinissdisd data, and the labour
nadisi to be esrenissioni. Aldtangla, therefore, the noble
lad eppedie had Nana the penirnment for abolishing
to Van I:llnanes Land, he (Sir W. Moles.
trta=r6l=y hoped it would never be revived. Next
with reopen to Norfolk Island. Three systems had been
tried there—the cruel system, the indulgence system, and
the lax system. Under the first, frequent mutinies
had occurred among the convicts. The indulgence
Britain, on the other hand might nattily have suc-
ceeded, had it been differently carried out, but
under Captain Maconeehle it was nearly sore to fail.
The indulgence system was serried to an extreme. It was a
fact that on one occasion the prisoners were regaled with •
dinner and the representation of a play in the evening.
Captain Gipps, who visited the Wand, reported favourably of
the good order ng the convicts under this system ; but
he reported that gambling was prevalent and that vice was
raging. Under the lax system, on the other hand, Norfolk
Island was • very hell upon earth. The accounts given of
the colony at this time were absolutely horrible. An attempt
was made to change the system, and the consequence was a
general uproar, in which stores were broken open and the
police violently attacked. These were the consequence,