The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING APRIL 23, 1853

ansaciel etheseelons, the Helen eliCemesess acted with suhject. Muth Itielm.) He ethei leis right boo. gentle-
respect to guarantees with ewe. eoution, end 50
with great an theretege net Ispreseeed with Mb question, but to give
'consomme«, el the respeulbiliii of sock yudinj,,k,ope, 'it more cue and sensideration. lie hoped that he would
that they never exceeded/ years ; and in 1814, after the not force him to mho for the amindiment of his hon. sit
(Mt financial 'aperient° which the epoch of the French j ',trued friend. What was that amendment? It woe one de-
It.volution .d taught this country, and after all the ex- I elating that in all changes or conversions ef the public funds
perience of Mr. Pitt, that term was not increased but was it was not wise, or expedient, nr politic., to increase the
mime/ to hie years. (Cheers.) Thee. were important capital of the public debt. (Cheers.) If there WAS a divi.
fact., which the committee should bear in mind, became Ma he mess vote foe that assertion of a principle so sound
alth .ugh the guarantee might not appear to be of so much and so salutary; but at the same time be hoped to be pre-
row,,,ueee se the rite of interest, it would really be fund vented from taking that course by the government's
u.temately to be the mom important element en ell these sr- adoption of the amendment. It would be no condescension
reodegoinve. (Hear, hear.) In 1830, there was • greet on their part to du so ; and it would allow them to give to
r,,,,,,ei0n etieeted ; the lint of tuose great operations this subject more time and more thought than it had
whie'l would elwaye render the name of the right bon. apparently yet received. (Cheers.)
gentlemen the member for the University of Cambridge Mr. GOULBURN sail the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
(Mn. (lowborn) memorable in the financial history of the Disraeli) had statedthat there was • general opinion that
r„.,,,iry. (lb ar.) That right lion. gentleman then dealt the government could deal with 600 millions of debt, and
„,,h a capital of 1.i3,000,0001, and he effected a saving of effect • great reduction of interest thereon. It. would not
of a year, the consideration Riven being • guarantee dispute whether that was so or not ; but whatever th- pub.
of ,„ eer ern:. tor ten yeah. In that instanee there was an lie opinion might be, whenever it was in error on subjects
option allowed of • stock of 701. bearing • 61. per cent. in- of that kind, it was their duty, as representatives of the
tenet—as arrangement very similar to the first alternative people, to bring the matter fairly before the public, that
of tb,• present Chancellor of the Exchequer; and there was any error might be corrected by their suporker knowledge—
thoe remittable circumstance, Lamely, that there waa (hear, hem)—and to afford to the people' what they were
scarcely any aubecriptioo for that alternative.. He believed, always reedy to accept, information better than they
in tact, that not more than half-a-million was subscribed could otherwise obtain as to our financial situtti.n. Mr.
eur. (Hear, hear.) 'fliers was a similar reduction in 1834, Disraeli had chosen to regard the operation as absolutely
t, winch he would not advert except fur the purpose of no- completed, and after mho ing that the saving would be
tiring that though the principle of the guarantee was ap- limited to 600,0001., he had triumphantly exclaimed, " See
pik,il in that c tie it was only tor six years. In 1843 there what • paltry amount of savieg is to be effected by all these
.1 mat r. duction effected by the right hon. geutleman great changes." Ho must have forgotten the argument of
(Mr. tioulburn). It dealt with a capital of 230,060,0001., Sir F. Kelly, who said that the great object should be to
and there was an immediate saving of 621,0001., which obtains reduction of the capital of the national debt. (Hear.)
would of courw be afterwards doable that amount. The If, therefore, Mr. Disraeli thought the 440 millions of debt
consideration given was a guarantee of 31 per cent. fur 10 would be converted into stock et 82/. 10s., he should cor-
year., and of 3 per cent. for 20 years after then. Thus the tainly have stated what would be the amount of reduction
whole guarantee upon that great and successful operation in the capital of the debt, a Raving which it might be sup.
only reached 30 Teary- N'w, this was an arrangement posed he and his friends would be glad to encourage (Hest,
which bon • mach nearer resemblance, to the present sr- hear.) But be was evidently anxious to depreciate the
recommit than may of the others; but there were some re- value of the measure—(hear, hear)—and he sought more
makable points of contrast. Consols then bore 31. Is. inter• effectually to depreciate it by contrasting it with similar
rest, and Eschequer bells 21. 4.. 10d.; the balance in the measures, beginning with the administrating of Sir Robert
Exchequer wars 4,100,0001, sod the floating debt about 19 Walpole. He trusted that the house would sanction the
midway. Tag sum dealt with was then 2511,000,0001., and measure, and thus lay a foundation for such • future re-
there woe an immediate saving of 600,0001, with au ulti- duction of the national expenoiture and the debt as should
mate saving of 1.2‘0,00t./. But new what was our present be highly advantageous and honourable to the country.
parities'? Irate-al of Console being at 84, they were at par; (Loud cheers.)
instead of Exchequer bills being at 21.45. ed., they were Sir J. PAKINOTON said be attached the greatest
If Ids. sd. ; instead of the balance in the Eitch.quer bring weight to
anything
that fell from Mr. Goulburn on financial
4,700,0001., it was nearly double that amount, and the matten ; but he thought he had misrepeesented Mr. Die.
testier debt, though not to a very considerable client, null in reference to the reduction effected by Lord Bexley.
was still actually lower. Yet the present Chancellor He referred to the speech made by Mr. Qoulburn in 1844,
of the Eiikeluer dealing with 600,000,0001, un•lef so in proposing the reduction of the Three-anil-s-Half per
much more favourable circumstances, only proposed Cents , and said that he had not then advocated the offor of
making a iniv'mg of Goo,ooUi. • year, if the whole several alternatives to tho stockholders. He bad noticed
affair was completed, and with a guseraidans which would such a proposal as was now mule fur the creation of a Two-
yr ttttt any further operations fur 40 years. (Cheers.) and-alien per Cent, stock by giving a larger amount of
Anil now what were the circumstances of the country that capital, but rejected it, and said he reprobated the idea of
should induce the committee to authorise an arrangement obtaining • present advantage by entailing future burdens
which appeared on the surface to be so improvident and so on the country. (Hear, hear.) It was said this was
limited in its results ? Was the rate of interest lower; or merely an experiment ; and should it prove acceptable to
was the country less prosperous than in 1834 ? (Cheers.) the public, no doubt • further conversion would be pro-
Whit be (Mr. Disraeli) objected to is the right hon. gentle. posed, and • consequent farther increase of the debt.
sane proposition was. last of him*. had settled the Nothing so strong h-.d been urged against the present
terms upon which operations possibly to so:great an client, measure as was urged by Mr. Ouulburn, in 1814, against
seed which went to so great a period of time, should be car- the suggestion then made in some quarters of lowering the
raj on. (Hear, hear.) It was no doubt the duty of every rate of interest bT means of an increase of the
pet. 11 la the inside& of the right hon. gentlemen who (Cries of " Divide.")
oohed to effect such an object rather to throw upon the Sir F. KELLY, in reply. said he had certainly under-
piddle creditor the reeponsibility of offering the terma that stood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to calculate on a eat-
might be agreeable to him (the public creditor), than that •
mg of 100,0001. from the operations to be eructed by this
be himself (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should come bill; and by the
wing
of one plan of conversion fur
down sad say—" Then are the terms which I lay down,
another, that &snug would be subject to a reduction of
and the only terms that I can accept." Meer, lieu.) The
87,0001., There was g 1 and pe h•pa well-founded
roiht bon. gentleman said, " You may impugn and numb- belief in the mercantile community thatr :large reduction
date my reasoning, and the position I hive advanced, bat
a the rata of interest must thartly take place.
. The exia7
tibia I have a sovereign ohnet to obtain. I want to @stab- -
wen he thought qua of this ne sou proved by the calculations adopted
lob a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock."
that the hen. member fur Lambeth wee right. Nothing by Chancellor of Exchequer himself in bringing for-
ward this measure. The great objection to this proposal
could be more desirable, if it was the natural consequence
Was that it held out the promise of an extravagant rate
▪ their financial position. Otherwise there was nothiag
of interest, guaranteed fur an unreasonably long period.
practice/at all shout • Two.and.wllalf per Cent. Stock. A Inasmuch as the right hon. gentleman still persevered in
T•o-uclui-Half per Cent. Stock might he treated at soy
the second branch of the clause—that part of it which pro-
ume, if they chose to pay for it. (Cheers.) If it wee
posed to create • Two-end-a-Half per Cent. stock on a
to he only • fictitious and artificial result, there was .
capital of 1101., nod with • guaranteed interest fur forty
minister, even in times of war, who eisehl not cress ayear, and inasmuch as this appeared to him—indepen-
Twoned-a-lialf per Cent. Stock if he chose to do it. (Hear, .antl of the objection that it erstressed_ the unital of the
btu) It wee, no doubt, tbe duty of • and
the Finance e.
Yidebt—appeared • nationsto him to be • bargain unjust anal
to consider the interest of the debt; and the right hon.
gentleman cmcccd much creditfur haying turned extravagant as against the state, and in favour of the public
he would divide the committee upon it.
his able and crashes mind to the subject ; but
The eommittee then divided :
he knew full well that there was no *teat originality in
For Sir F. Kelly's ameadmon• 176
attempting to deal with the interest of the national debt. Against it
The gnome was to deal with it at the right time, and in
suck • manner as that they ssiOt be able to deal with it An 110 N. MEMBER gave notice that on the bringing
when the prupf time arrived. gje (Mr. Disraeli's) opinion up of the report he would move an amendment in the
was that the right lion. gentleman had been ingenious, but clause the object of which would be to provide that the
premiere. (Hear, bear.) It was totally impossible by 30.000,0001. should not tell due in larger sums than
any methination, however deter, or by any device., how- 6i000,0001. in one year. Meer.)
ever somplieeted and inge•Mss, to make the publics take a Mr. T. BARING said that the minister of the day might
lower ester of interest than the state of the mosey market be placed in a very embarrassing position if be should be
would offer. (Hear, bear.) It was quite Impossible to all_lod an at the and of 1891 to find large • sum as
suppose that they could succeed in digging pitfalls or da.(wo,••••
making mares for the public creditor, for there was no man The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed with
crafty creature is existence than he. (Laughter.) They the boa. 'enflames.
might give him all the etternadue that ingenuity could The clause was then agreed to.
emeeive, bet the pubilessideller had • test of the vane of Clause up to 11 were agreed to.
Ins money ; for be email ge end find out in- On clause 11,
eerily what it was worth. (Hear, .) That brought him Mr. SPOONER said that the clause gave power to the
to • point which the committee aught to coaaider Wage trustee to bind the rest/non trust, but supposing be held in
they agreed to any of these ernapments. They might ninnies, and mei jun, did the clause give the trustee
dipped upon that all indirect attempts to And with the power to dispose a the ito-k without the consent of the
d.bt—be did not say they would always fail, bat they 'executor ?
would always be difficult. Bat their arrangements as a rule The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mid that
aunt be simple. if the state of the money market the clause was drawn up in accordance with the provisions
enabled them to deal with the rate of interest, of previous sus. He apprehended that the trustees would
it wee manereary to act in as indirect manner; bat if, be bound by the general rule of law.
toonaideriug thee artificial safeguards surrounding the debt, Is reply to Mr. BAIIIIIIO,
they felt it resseemy to do so, he did not think there mu The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
say mare legitimate means, if they wanted to establish it OS bringing up the report he would move a clause for pro-
Twoesed-e•Half per Cent. Steck, than to go fairly to the 'riding • &inking fund.
public, and auk them whet was the guarantee, muidering The clause was then agreed to.
the relent state of the market, they required ? Now, Clauses up to 16 were agreed to.
that was a simple proposition, and one that the country Outlasts 13,
wield asidentatid. It is very possible that they would sax Mr. I. BUTT asked why power was given to enable the
a very Mag guarantee —possibly longer than the forty years executor or trustee to change the character of the stock. It
which had been offered ; bet then they were in the clear left it open to him to increase or diminish the life interest or
minion of being abbe to consider whether it was espedient, the reversion. (Hear, hear.)
clietiotior wise to give that gement**. (Hear, hear.) That The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be
is t them the real point which wee to be considered would moulder the uggestioo. He would certainly not
beam they decided es this meiseure—ossely, what were exclude trustees from the liberty of doing what would be
their prospects with regard to the rate of interest in this moat advantageous to the parties they represented, but he
essatry. (User, boor.) Now, he would not enter into any thought that the consent of the Court of Chummy should
guards= es that subject, for it was one that had be given.
=red Wier Mem net only in this country, but The dean was then agreed tat, as were clauses up to 27.
the thought of the most Classes 27 to 31 wan severally agreed to.
prethernripetielsol end inquire,' into monetary On elimosa32.
eiresmsteaces that had ever &s wished. But mine sesid Captain LAFFAN asked the Chancellor of the Esther
ilssy that et the meow tier there nem sew phonemes& in quer whether he had any objection to insert in it words
Medea to ibis tratallim no right hen. gestioniss (Mr. which would prevent the sahrof Exchequer Buds below
Osalbeire) bad sever bees phoned it Emma* cireusweasess Par ?
is libigh Say sAhme M the present day iehe hap- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in all
peed to be C the Ifinebettser would be pissed ; such cues, it was necessary to give a certain discretion to
and if any propegges cry this kb* venial hale secs mode the government agent ; and his own opinion wu, that they
hethat right MIL UMW stuns, eiromestuises, had better not blurt slab • emodition. At the sans time,
he (Mr. Disreelki it woad Ims, We
groat gum be thought that to Wee bends of this description consider
time whether %bob/gem soul have sanitithed • guarantee ably below par, would be a very left-handed way of miming
fist forty yew. (Clisoss.) The right hoe. geatimun, who the ;whin. (Hear.)
was the mess espernseed, the most skilful, and the mast Mr. T. BARING remarked that the holding out to the
eseensfal of ear time, and who hid dealt with public • peosibittl oldie bonds being sold below par, would
sum that in di muse have bees sureely lees than kern •pr j iffseti
600,1100,00114, had seta esstempleted • gusrudee for forty The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could mum
years ; for his guarantee was first one for ten yeas, and • dm hes. ragman that be had no intention of holding
woad for twenty yeses ; so that virtually it was no mum out 11.01illwattolliTte (Haul
than me for twenty years. (Has,, hear.) The right boo. Mr. LET nght • thelseatiss that the bonds
gentlemen had to iMsl with • queens" which only mislead would /sot he tossed " sowildasetA7 Ws. Far" wooded
experiencesad jadisent--ne doubt valuable ; but strange front thi lips of • 011eMeller of the Exchequer.
be knew what would be the ptsbehis quantity of the (Hear, hear.) In We ladliolont It MEMO be provided in
maims 'Male is the world ; be bass what 6,4 bees the bill that mono of there aloud be Meld beim per.
re CV: a talltallittalbee abi:gd prosperity to which
deldremOLLlNßarltwhatti,thowler.be
ymeithsp:deleirsolr.itit
also to amidst the imperithil mender of terminable to feeth to the Podia that thus WO e, • PosaMi
••••1004; takin=feileninemense eimmeesimme he is Nathequer Bemis pal. (gear,
us
ems bed s of tempo dureties hear.) He had a to main to the right bon! gee-
than Monty gists ppm. New, what wen the thaws width be smoldered of same impertmee. Many
eireamthatme tender ibM we were now plated? Was of tbs bonds might evestemilly get into the heads of
diem anilhady whe pethead to calculate the 61111•11 et MEWS. and with sash perms it 'tepid be • great °Wee-
dMO athlith Or 14 say what it would be is tarty dem that they lad met that met et mew* which ought to
tees& lit *Mg, he ,es ems tem Mem, heer.) attache le trust property. Re would engem that it would
Tbss tie quenies od onnidges badbeen be admishis, that ia ems of • dathemd- frost trustees, the
by am bememmthie patience sprat* tele bad gives is bonds Mash' he writhe both stock—a Pssedee which
has mammies to the priest* puss, the sake of Chan- Culls' 1007 sub la essatrier, and which be
miler tithe liaaterpeer Into esdomides, ald et delegating would week wall hare.
Ms patients a sithmilies of the Meths of Csuamme. That elt f• RIMY Ma power wer• given
VIII he* athapiltheepthey to the ability right hes. to nelanant Iddiewraor ash y2l percent. stock,
Itgatimmem opposite; sad certaiisly he Mr. Disraeli) would monZethiehme would well dmmitodwe
vote ageism the rabseitstios el • y committee ORAMCILLOR of Ms EXCHEQUER said he hod
he him. (Rear, hear.) Bat the psalms ef to-nimble beilf—bidewded M give the Twat thenhesed, not only to
mashies bed --cues-' a very different ohmmeter since the flosithla Vat Withers- (Hoor. hear.)
pelt amecik delsocoopme ; and it noodesbefei whether at Glum 32, and the remaining clause of the bill, wen
tifirl=ilintir Tel laljg to dal with
o(p tilheance Wit:lows! Tb: tbsuWtan
it manned, sad the chairmen obtained leave to
The ben. gesdesma mid the Gunnery wield make nest sit GPM as Monday.
eaublemos miss the plea of tamdsable 111111111itiet. Now CUSTOMS, Le., ACT.
be (Mr. Diumali) thought the essetry was disposed to make Os this order of the day for receiving the lepert.
so maw at all. (Chun) No thought the country was JONES stated that the reestaties bt imisaleg
dispersal shear to watch the result of the changes whirl assal duty of Bd. on Irish spirits, posed es the
wag rfrai is around them. (Hear, bur) He would not previous day without his Tritium of what was going for-
give say "globs 44 the setter, but he would ask the out- ward, and musoaseed his Intention to oppose the alteration
Len M issember that they were in the midst of theme at a future aattyyoo..
greet Mak (Rear, hear.) They were in the midst of Tbe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
pb•MIIIINS that were perplexing the profoundest thinkers, that the bee. gestleesan could carry out his intention either
mad disk este aphasics the bouts sad suitieg the hopes es the woad reeding or in committee.
ef thesennist esti mold the emasaittee under such sir- The meet was then received.
semthesthe gummethee a este of interest fee 40 years merely The Taatag Officer Common Law Business (Ireland) Bill
▪ imselhat • itebems which if pet completely is was read a second time.
welt aky oft the country about 600,0001. EDUCATION BILL.
a 'aroma mat mewlss that which is • few mouths Os the motion of Lord J. RVUILL, the order of the day
ahar would musks from the nodsi.g aaaaarliaa Ma" for the emend goading of this bill was postponed till Friday
Matt hes favourable eiteumelemses sae Rpm • capital of ssnaight.
ably halt the .meat / (Cheese.) MsthamM ealy be doing CALL OF THE HOUSE.
~_,_1611117_11111,01m. hv anarthead treep,_ Mr. DRUMMOND postponed lie motion for a tall of
'move Tag maarakwad these 4.1,01101.• They non had the hawses the 3rd of May, is consequence, as he stated, of
three important champs is this meet Important user a discussion on a question of perusal character having been
sem, which partly by as 'bank/ of temper, fixed for that day,
wry unusual es the pert of the setts lead, sad partly by
a very noistintioaat mistake Imo aid Imo azprojoid. . DOCKYARD APPOINTMENTS.
r B. HALL proposed that the following members be
at MI rusts quite satisfactorily to Massif, obey had not Si
been allowed to discus until to-night. Lady and fourthly, this select enmities un dockrd appointments :—Sir Bea-
th, lientstiin of 30,00,0001. bad been eta further limited Jams Lord Seymour, Lord
Bothnia, Sir Henry Fer-
ia 21,000.0001. (lieu, beer.) Now be did net mean to ley gnus Davie, sad Mr. Beckett
that all thee" &Iterations were sot wise, discreet, and proper Mr. NEWDEOATE protested against the re.opening of
left; but he thought they shamed that the scheme bad not the matters involved in the proposed inquiry before em-
bus sullesently matured—(than)—and that there had mitt.' which could not 1111111ffila• witnesses on oath after
not Well to it that considerstiou, that business like they bad been fully investigated by the select committee.
devotion of Ulu and thought which became • gentian of He also complained of renewed attacks in the Tansea, when
the mecum When a Minister of Finance and his colleagues the committee was on the eve of being nominated upon the
dealt with se vast • theme as the public debt, end dealt character of the hon. member (Mr. &afford) who was the
with it swerever sasseeworily— (sheen)—it was just -is party chiefly interested in the result.
will that the Polandaaano.___
_which bay _ _ Pat before the hones Mr. STAFFORD said he had not been aware of his hon.'
di▪
d""ww "00 beiger.
_•vimmil °‘ •f•U°D and care. friend's intesticin to introdue a dismission. For his own
ila
am *eat se law any petty 11"111WW upon such a part he thought the questions which would come before the