The Express.
London, England, 1848-02-22 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 22, 1848.

were casual, and which could not again occur—such, for
instance, were tne items charged for the transfer of convicts'
establisbments to the miscellaneous estimates. The cheeses
for harbours of refuge, the British Museum, and for the ex-
pedltion in search of Sir J. Franklin, were also of this na-
ture. But in the estimates of the year a considerable por-
tion of the increase would be found attributable to the m-
crease in the wages of petty officers, and in the loss which
the government inctured by givieg up the poundage upon
naval and military pensions. Another erroneous impression
which had been made by the speech a his noble friend
was, that the increase in the taxation was only the fore-
runner and beginning of a permanent increase in the esta-
blishments of the country. There had been nothing what-
ever said by his noble friend to warrant any such conclusion.
There was nothing, he felt bound to declare, more deprecated
by hey Majesty's government than any intention on
their part of making preparations for war. As far
as he understood his noble friend he believed him
(Lord J. Russell) to have said that, in his opinion,
nothing could be so dangerous as to have it believed them
was anythisg_in existing circumstances which might lead
to a war. What was proposed by the government was
merely to maks up a revenue equal to the permanent defi-
ciencies which existed between the income and the expendi-
ture. But there had been nothing whatever to justify the
belief that the government was making a parade of its pre-
parations. The house might rest perfectly assured that
government would do nothing which they did not believe to
be absolutely essential fur the preservation of the peace of
Europe. He felt sorry that so much misapprehension had
existed on the subject. (Hear, aud " Oh.") The govern-
ment had nothing so much at heart es to observe economy
in its expenditure of the public money. (Hear, and " Oh.")
The government wished for nothing so much as that the
country and the house should be satisfied upon this point. It
was therefore the intention of ministers to propose the ap-
pointment of a select committee to inquire into the
expenditure of the army, navy, and ordnance, and this
Inquiry would be proceeded with as soon as the
parties who could give competent information on the sub-
ject and the proper pap: rscould be collected t igether. His
bon. friend the member for hluntroae had asked the noble
lord (J. Russell) whether it was his intention to appoint a
finance committee, to which his noble friend had replied
" No." It was not the intention of the government to sub-
mit to the consideration of the proposed secret committee
what were termed the " income and expeuditure of the
country ;" but they had resolved upon confining the inquiry
to the army, ordnance, and navy ►
expenditure. The course
which the government propose to adopt is that pointed out
by precedents. In the year 1828 the right hon. baronet op-
posite (Sir R. Peel) moved for the appointmeut of a similar
committee. In doing so, he reminded the house that a simi-
lar committee had been appointed in 1796, after which
others had sat at intervals of ten years. He (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) found on record, that in the years 1786,
1791, 1796, 1807, 1817, and 1828, were those in which ouch
committees had been appointed. Those were periods of ten
years; but twenty years had expired since the last committee
of 1828 had sat. Such being the case, the inquiries of the
committee would afford a more complete view of the cir-
cumstances which had rendered the additional expenditure
of latter years necessary. With regard to the focus of pro.
ceeding that evening, he must observe, that on referring to
the year 1845. when the income-tar was renewed by the
righthon. baronet opposite, he foundthere were no estimates
brought forward between the period when the renewal of
the tax was proposed and the passing of the resolution into a
law. The government proposed to follow that example.
But it was necessary that a vote of supply should be taken
on account of the army and navy, and he hoped the house
would not oppose his hon. friends the Secromry-at-War and
the Secretary to the Admiralty in taking those votes.
74r. HUME telt bound to at.ite the reasons which had
caused him to feel so much dissatisfied with the noble lore's
statement on Friday evening. He had expressed himself
warmly on that occasion for he felt so. But he would now
proceed to state his reasons for the dissent which
he had expressed to the motion of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. The right bon. gentleman
(Sir C. Wood) bad asserted that it was the duty of the
house to look at the estimates first without baying regard to
the means by which the money necessary fer the vote should
be come at. He (Mr. flume) had always objected to this i
order of proceeding, upon the principle that the house ought
to know what were the means of defraying the expenditure
of the country previous to consenting to vote any portion I
Of that expenditure. He felt glad to hear it disavowed by
the right hon. gentleman that the speech of the noble lord on
Friday night was a warlike speech. But that was the im- I
premien which be had received from hearing it. The same
feeling was entertained by others ; and he believed it would
be extended to France. Let him direct the attention of the
house to one point connected with the motion before them. I
He held in his hands twe balance.-sheete of the revenue—
one dated 1346, and filmed by Mr. Cardwell , the other dated
1848, and signed by Mr. Parker. The total expenditure of 1816, I
as shown in Mr. Cardwell's balance-sheet, was 51,000,0001. 1
in rand numbers. That of Mr. Parker was 51,340,0001., •
to which must be added 4,000,0001. fur the expense of col- •
lection, making • total levy upon the nation of 56,000,0001.
in round numbers. On the sth of Januaty, 1847, he found 1
there was an excess of income over expenditure of 3,807,000 t,
whilst in January, 1848, he found registered an exeees of 1
expenditure over income of 2,950,0001., making in the whole I
au excess of 6,757,0001. between the balance-sheets of t
January, 1817, and January, 1848. Now, he asked whether
such an account justified boffin assenting to a fresh increase
of expenditure ? Was it not time to make a stand ? He cer-
tainly did ask ministers whether it was their intention to ,
proceed with the imposition of the income tax, without giv- I
mg the country an opportunity of examining, by means of a
committee of that house, whether no reduction of the I
expenditure could be effected ; for, if the inquiry were made,
the government could not be in a worseposition than it at
present occupied, for in that case their estimates would be I
confirmed. But, when he heard the speech of the noble
lord, and his proposal for an increased income tax, the sur-
prise he felt drove him to make the observations be had I
done. In the present state of trade and commerce, the pro- 1
ceedings of the government were more unjustifiable than he 1
could express. Tradesmen could scarcely pay their way, I
and the country generally was severely suffering. Under
such circumstances, was the government justified in distri- I
bitting the public revenue as the estimates before the house
showed was their intention ? Look at he returns of the
mode in which the ships of the navy were employed. In a I
return which had recently been made, be found that there
had been stationed for upwards of ten months 10 ships of war I
in the Tagus, with complements of men amounting to 7,000. 1
The cost of the cruisers on the coast of Africa was enormous,
and worse than that, the preventive service there was highly
irritating to the French and the United States. All these I
circumstances only proved how reasonable a demand he made
in proposing to appoint a committee to inquire into the
whole question of expenditure. The right hon. baronet (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had only granted half what
he (Mr. Hume) had asked; for his committee embraced
inquiry into the civil, military, and naval exediture, the
feet pert of which had been refused him. Then cost of the
two establishments of the customs and the excise was
1,800,0001, The expense of maintaining the customs was ex-
&alp the same as before the tariff was altered, and the
labours of the officers reduced and simplified. In the excise
department there had been a *eying effected of 57,000/. dur-
ing the last few years. Why, therefore, was the Custom-
house establishment still kept up to its original level ? When
the proper moment came for exposing this wrong system
he would do so. The government could not refuse to enter
into these subjects. There was also another important
breach of inquirylto be gone into—namely, as to whethxation.er the
country ought not to altar its present orstem of ta
There was • great difference of opinion existing as to
the questions of direct or indirect taxation. That might not
form a subject of inquiry ; but at least the country had a
tight to look into its expenditure. The right hon. baronet
bad reminded the house that there was a committee ap-
pointed on the subject in 1828. But that committee had
been burked. The first year of its sitting was devoted to in-
quiries into the whole subject of expenditure in the various
departments of the public service. The next year the Duke
of Wellington put an end to it. Had that committee been
allowed to proceed with the inquiry, and to complete the
task assigned to it, he was prepared to assert a great
reformation would have been effected is the col-
lectien and expenditure of the income of the state.
Sir H. Hardinge did mike some excellent alterations in the
arrangements of the War-office in consequence of the infor-
mation he derived from an attendance at the sittin:a of the
committee, and the mode in which Lord Hardinge effected
those changes was highly creditable to him. The right hon.
baronet had stated that the commee was brim a secret one.
He saw no reason why it should be a secret committee. He
submitted to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that such an
inquiry would not be satisfactory, and its labours would not
values the conviction on the public mind that all had been
done that could be effected towards lessening the public
burdens. It was not his intention to oppose the motion for
the house to go into committee of supply. All he asked of
the government was not to take ton much money, but to be I
contented with • grant for six weeks, by which time the
proposed committee would perhaps have had time to inquire
and to report on the subject of expenditure.
Mr. EWART said that, as the excise establishment had
diminished its ex penditureov i n the last year or two, 50,0001-
or 60,0001., he begged to know how it was the Custom
house had not dose the Name. He bad listened to the
speech of the noble lord on Friday night, and he must say
that he did not consider it to be fraught with pacific senta-
ments. He should be glad to find he was mistaken in so re-
garding that speech but he must confess that the right hon.
gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not suc-
ceeded in removing his apprehensions.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD entered hie protest against the
financial proposition of the go ver nment. The noble lsenti-
ord's
speech was in direct opposition to his own recorded
ments on the subject of reform, economy, and retrenchment.
His ( Mr. S. Crawford's) opinion was, that the expenditure
ought to be reduced.
PASSENGERS BILL.
Mr. CARDW ELL begged to ask the right hon. gentleman
the President of the Board of Trade, what course it was
intended by him to pursue with respect to the Colonial Pas-
sengers Bill ?
LABOUCHERE said that if the bill were delayed
until the seams for emigration had arrived it would be
utterly useless. Recollecting the scenes of misery and horror
which had occurred last year he was most unwilling to post-
pone the bill. His intention was ti have the bill read a
second time that night, and to refer it to a select committee
up_ suers. He hoped the hon. member and the house would
offer no opposition to the course he pointed out.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN asked whether it was the intention of
the Canadian government to levy a tax on Irish immigrants
thither, and whether the government had any objection to
lay any correspondence which had passed on the subject
before the house ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the information required
by the hon. member had already been laid on the table of
the house. He begged to as;: the hon. member for Liver-
pool wheter he had any objection to permit the Passengers
to be rhead a second time, as be Lod proposed se

Mr. CARDWELL said that all he was anxious for as
to
secure to those interested in the bill *proper time for consi-
dering its details.
Mr. STAFFORD said that • very strong objection te the
bill existed in many quarters, and on his own part likewise.
Mr. HUME suggested the propriety of amalgamating and
consolidating all the acts relating to emigration into one bill.
He had given • notice of motion on this subject.
Mr. BROWN begged the right hon. gentleman to Peet'
pane the bill for some days.
Mr. DISRAELI objected to making such a hill the sub-
ject of an inquiry before a committee upstairs. The question
was one which ought to be openly and freely diecuneed.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not know whether the
hon. member opposite had read the shocking details re-
specting the results of the Irish emigration which took
place last year. The government had not thought proper
to frame the present bill until the whole of the de-
tails were before it. It was now of contra that the bill
should pass at an early. period, for thects were being
made with the emigration agents. At the same time he act•
witted that it was quite fair the shipowners should know
what the bill proposed to''o. If therefore the bill was read
a second time that night, and the committee fixed for Fri-
day. that might have been • reasonable course; but as his
right hon. friend had ascertained that the proposed arrange-
ments would not do, in consequence of other subjects being
before the house, he bad proposed a select committee
upon the bill, reserving power to the house to
consider the whole subject in committee afterwards.
He prayed the house to recollect that it was most desirable
speedily to diminish evils of which nobody could think with-
out horror.
ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND).
Mr. BRIGHT wished to kaow when the Encumbered
Estates Bill was to he brought forward.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it had been introduced in the
House of Lords, and would be read a second time in the
course of the present week.
LEASES (IRELAND).
Mr. S. O'BRIEN asked what progress was being made
respecting the bill for regulating leases for lives renewable
for ever in Ireland.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the bill was in preparation,
but he trout
JEWISH not immediately
DISABILITIES Hs a da
BILL. for its introdnction.
Mr. BANKES said it would be a great convenience to
many bun. members if they could be informed on what day
, the committee on the above bill was to be taken.
Lord J. RUSSELL--Friday next.
NAVAL AND MILITARY ESTIMATES.—SECRET
COMMITTEE.
Capt. HARRIS said that the committee of receipt and
expenditure which had been proposed by the government
had very mm..h the look of a compromise with tbeir friends
behind them. He thought that a much better course would
be to let the matter stand over until Monday, and then to
take the discussion in the usual manner.
Mr. HUhl E disclaimed all idea of a compromise. Ile had
heal no communication verbal or written with any member
of the government.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The house having resolved itself into &committee of supply,
Mr. WARD trusted that the house would allow him to
propose a vote of 24.3,4101., which was absolutely necessary
for the public service, being the amount by which the Ad-
miralty bad overspent the last year's estimate.
Mr. liEßßlEb*said he had not understood that any votes
were to be taken without discussion. Ile protested, there-
fore, against the present vote. He should also protest against
the committee, but that was not the proper time for discussion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER concurred
with the right hon. gentleman that it would be improper to
take any whole vote pending the discussion, but the present
was • very inconsiderable one, and could not be affected by
any reduction tl:e committee might recommend. it was
merely a vote to make up an arrear of 1847.
Mr. BANK ES wished to know whether this was the item
on which the controversy had taken place between the Ad-
miralty and the Treasury ? If so, he thought it • subject
on which explanation was imperatively demanded. (Hear,
hear.) He wished also to have some information as to the
nature of this secret committee. Would there be any means
provided for ascertaining how the members voted ? In other
select committees the house was made aware of all the pro.
coding', and an accouut was kept of the votes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
perfectly true that the present vote woe that one respecting
which the correspondence had taken place between the Ad-
miralty and the Treasury, aud the whole fts hail been
laid on the table. In former times it had beenac the practice
to hold over wh deter balances had been left of former votes,
and consequently departments hail a full power of applying,
and sometimes of misapplying, those balances. But now no
balance could be held over after the sth of April, and there-
fore there having been • deficiency last year • subsequent
vote was necessary. Gentlemen must know that it was nut
always possible to keep accurately within the estimates. As
to the next question, the secrecy of the committee, it was
only into nded that all the world should not be made ac-
quainted with its price dings. At the termination of the
committee the whole of its proceedings would be laid on the
table.
Mr. RISME said that the proposition for a secret commit-
tee was on many accounts most objectionable.' With respect
to the vote, he thought it would be much better to take •
certain sum on account.
Col. SIBTHORP objected most, strenuously to a secret
committee.
Lord G. BENTINCK said he was anytbiag but satisfied
with the explanations which had been given by the noble
lord, and the right bon. gentleman, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. He thought it highly unjustifiable to propose a
octet committee. (Hear, hear. )
Lord 11. VANE said that any select committee might ex-
clude the public ; but he thought it would be inexpedient to
have the present a secret one.
Lord J. RUSSELL, said that the question of the appoint-
ment of the committee wax not before the house, and there-
fore he should not discuss it at any length, but merely allude
to the observations of the noble lord opposite. The noble
lord seemed to think the committee pr-posed • novelty, but
he begged to remind the noble lord that in 1786. 1797, 1807,
1317, and ITN, similar committees were appointed, under ,
the administrations of lelr. Pitt, Lord Grenville, Lord Liver- ;
pool, and, lastly, of the Duke of Wellington. Committees ,
had been appointed to inquire into the whale expenditure, ,
including the army,navy, and ordnance, and all, he believed, ;
were not only select but secret committees. That was to
say, not only were the public excluded, but members of the
house, not on the committee, were not allowed to be present.
Why it should be unconstitutional to do that in 1848 which
had been done so often before, he owned passed his compre-
hension. The course might be inexpedient or impolitic, but ,
certainly it was not unconstitutional. On one occasion Mr.
Pitt gave as • reason for secreo,'that officers of department
were examined, and might disclose fact which it might not ,
be convenient to publish to the world. He (Lord John
Russell) thought that a practical reason, and that it applied
to the present time. His impression was that a secret coin-
mittee would he for the public advantage. As for the pre- ,
sent vote, they merely. wanted such an amount as would
prevent public inconvenience, but he had no wish to avoid
public discussion. On the contrary, he thought it would be ;
right to bring it forward at a time when a full attend-
ance
of members might be expected. There should be a fair
and open discussion on these estimates ; and, for his part,
he took upon himself their responsibility, declaring that they ,
were net war estimates, nor had been framed with any view
to a rupture with foreign countries, with whom cur relations
were at present of the most amicable nature. (Hear.)
Mr. HERRIES said that they were discussing the merits
of a committee which had not as yet been appointed. A
something was proposed to be done, and that something
had not been explained. (Hear.) As to the former coin
mittees which had bon cited by the noble lord, they were
appointed in time of war, when great caution was necessary.
(Hear.) He objected to any vote of money until the com-
mittee had been appointed.
Mr. HENLEY complained that since 1830 the estimates
had been annually increasing. This year there was an in-
crease, and government, instead of having them properly
and publicly ventilated, proposed to have them referred to a
secret committee. (Hear.) lie must say that to throw this
responsibility on a committee, wee, in his opinion, to abdi-
cate the functions of a government. (Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said that it had been his duty, as represen-
tative of the government in that house, to move the last com-
mittee in 1828. Shortly after the appointment of the Duke
of Wellington, and in fulfilment of • promise made by Mr.
Canning, he (Sir R. Peel) proposed a committee to consider
the military expenditure of the country. As the question of
stereo bad been raised, het apprehended that if precedents
wete to be ("Bowel, the present would be a select commit-
tee—(hear, hear)—but would have full power of withhold-
ing any information, the promulgation of which might be
prejudicial to the public interests. Sir H. liardinge was ex-
amined by the committee of 1828, and his examination was
published at length, as was everything that could be published
without injury to the public interests. In this sense he
hoped no committee would be secret. (Hear, hear.) Sir
H. Hardinge in the evidence to which he had alluded,
preyed himself to lee actuated by the same spirit which had
distinguished his career in India, and which had resultehear.d
in a saving of one million per annum. (Hear, )
Important evidence had been given before that committee,
which would have never been elicited in a general dis-
cussion in that house. Some parts relative to the defences
of Canada were withheld, and the committee in their ap-
pendix apologised for, and justified, the omission. He
did
d
hope that no committee would be appointed, which wo
not follow the course of the former one, that wall to say,
give the public as much of the evidence as possible. (Hear.)
Sir F. LEWIS would consent to a select committee, but
not to • secret one. The committees which had been quoted
were all select committee'.
Mr. NEWDEGATE looked upon the appo thent of a
select committee al a transfer of the powers fe govern-
ment to • commission. He believed there would be no
objection to vote a round sum for current expenses ; but he,
for one, could not consent to a specific vote.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
adopt the suggestion which had been offered, and withdraw
the vote which had been proposed (which was a whole vote)
taking a vote onaecount instead. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROBINSON thought, before the home was called
upon to vote any money, its opinion should be taken as to
the whole of the budget. (Hear, hear.) His constituents
would not be mollified to vote the money first and then refer
the estimates. (Hear, hear.) Ile must ask the noble lord
whether any injury to the public service would result from
the tponement of the navy estimates to a future day, as
he understood the only ground on which they were now
called on to agree to this vote, while the estimates generalvern-
ly
were to be referred to a committee, was to enable go
ment to get over some temporary difficulty ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—The house may depend that we
should not ask for money on account of these estimates if
the public service would not suffer were it not granted.
Mr. HILDYA.RD understood that, on Monday next,n the
house was to be called upon to decide upon the permanence
ci` the income tax—whieki tax the government had an-
noueced would be for tarn years at least increased in moult.

Now was this committee to be appotated to take from milde-
ws the reopeatibdity of the Getman' which they had made
the Wand of that announcement? (Hear, hear.) Was the
eommittes to be at liberty to reduce the estimates ? If so
it might torn out that after the increased property tax had
' been voted the addition might not be necessary. This would
be to trifle with the country. (Hear, hear.) Was it the
intention of the noble lord, supposing this committee were
appointed, to ask the house previous to their reporting to
agree to the resolution for increasing the income tax ?
Lord J. RUSSELL answered that it was his intention to
Olt OM Mint of the house, eon Monday next, to the resolu-
tion,' he had introduced on Friday last. Hill statement, how-
ever, did net appear to have been understood. H. had said
that if we paid the 'images of thosear war, which could
not well be avoided, seeing that expenses had been al-
ready incurred, and made no other increase in the estimates,
there would be a deficiency of between two and three mil
Boos—to meet which it would be necessary to resort to in-
creased taxation. Hit were possible that the proposed com-
mittee could diminish the estimates by that amount, they
might, no doubt, go on without voting any increase of the
property tax; but as he could not suppose any such reduc-
tion could be made, be should feel it to be his duty to ask
the assent of the house to that proposition. He had no wish
on the part of the government, in appointing the com-
mittee, to get rid of the responsibility which attached to
them. His object was tether to show that government were
anxious, in respect to the estimates, to undergo any inquiry
hon. members might desire to institute by a select com-
mittee, over and above such inquiries as might be made in
toe committee of the whole house.
Mr. DISRAELI remarked upon the silence of hon.
gentlemen who sat below the gangway on the ministerial
side of the house—a silence which he conceived must be
' peculiarly gratifying to them. Ile rose, however, to request
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in proposing the appoint-
ment of a committee to-morrow (this day), to he pre-
pared with some precedent for the step he recommended.
The precedent which had been referred to by the right hon.
gentleman (Sir R. Peel), the committee of 1828, did not
apply. That was a strictly economical appointment, the
object being to ase'rtain whether the expenditure of the
country might not be safely diminished. But the military
estimates of the current year were not referred to the com-
mittee. And the various other cases which had been quoted
were as little germane to the present. (Hear, hear.) \ Vhat
the house was called upon to refer the military estimates
I to a secret committee, no one could suppose that it was on
the ground of economy. The general feeling would be, that
the object was of a much graver character—(hear, hear)—
that it was to inquire into the efficiency of our defences, sad
the extent of military farce which might be made available
in any case of emergency. (Hear, hear.) He gave no
opinion on the general question. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer might be able to adduce sufficient reasons
for the course he proposed, but he doubted whe-
ther he could justify it by precedent. Ile hoped, also,
the right hon. gentleman would state to-morrow fur what
special object the inquiry woo to be instituted—for no one
could suppose it was for economical purposes, or with the
view of diminishing the amount of the current estimates.
(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could, with-
out any trouble, refer to precedenes, but preferred waiting
till to-morrow, whtn he would state the grounds of his
mntion, and adduce precedents in support of it.
Lord D. STUART observed that government could not
but be aware that the statement the noble lord had made on
Friday last with regard to the income tax, was unacceptable.
It had been met with reprobation on all sides, and therefore
they thouget it necessary to conciliate and remove °epee,-
tion. But did the Chancellor of the Exchequer suppose he
would disarm opposition by this proposition of a select com-
mittee? (Hear.) If he supposed that he could in this way re-
concile the country to the permanent imposition of this
odious tax he was greatly mistaken. (Hear, hear.) Those
who were prepared for the continuance of the income-tax, or
even an increase, expected that its most objectionable Jeanie.*
would be removed, and that it would be made tobear equal'y
on all classes. (Hear, hear.) If the window-tax were re-
moved ; if the people had cheap teas or tobacco ; or if some
other boon were given to the working.alasees in the removal
of some of those taxes which more especially pressed upon
them, the property-tax might have been borne for some time
longer. He was glad to find that the present estimates were
not brought forward as war estimates, and he rejoiced to
beer what fell from the noble lord (l'almerston) the other
night, so to the importance of maintaining peaceful relations
with France. Ile wee, however, not ono of those who
would wish to see this country in such a defenceless state as
to offer a temptation to a neighbouring or warlike people to
attack us. He trusted that the squadron now worse than %m-
-ind), employed in the suppression of the slave trade oe t' e
coast of Africa would be recalled. With regard to the vote
before the house, he had no objection to a round sum bee g
taken on account, but he should oppose the vote for the
whole excess.
Mr. WAKLEY remarked that the gratification of ashes.
tern at the silence of the members below the gangway (upon
which the hon. member for Buckinghamshire had observed)
would, he was sorry to say, be but of short continuance.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member, however, ought not to
feel surprised that those members abstained from speaking
on a very painful subject. It was his duty to in-
form the noble lord (.L Russell) that his proposition
had been received by his (Mr. Wakley's) omstituents
with astonishment, indignation, and disgust. (Hear,
The public were not particularly pleased with the right hon.
member for Tamworth (Sir it. Peel), when he tint proposed
his 3 per cent. tax on property and income for three years, ;
but there was so much blaeduess, such a fascination in his
manner of proposing it, and he paved the way to it so
smoothly, that it was impossible to be angry with him.
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But the noble lord had resorted
to no such expedient. He came out in a broad honest way
with his proposal, and it was quite evident that he thought
it would not be unacceptable to the public. It was his con-
viction that, though perhaps ministers might have succeeded
in passing a renewal of the tax for three years more, it
would he wholly out of their power to increase it to 5 per
cent. (Loud cheers.) He might be wrong ; but, from what
he saw and heard, he believed the people would
make suck representations to their representatives,
that they would not dare to support the govern-
ment in that proposition. (Hear, hear.) Should this
increase be submitted to for two years, what man in his
senses amid suppose that it would be afterwards abandoned
—(hear, bear)—especially after the experience they liad had
of the present income-tax ? The public were right, therefore,
in resisting at once a proposal that involved one of the most
dishonest and disgraceful modes of taxation that had ever
been tolerated. (Hear.) If John Bull was content to bear
this burden, then let government give him more of it—
punish him for his stupidity—(a laugh)—and Ix fore the end
of the session, make it 71 or even 10 per cent. He regretted
the hon. member for Montrose had not persisted in his
amendment, which he should certainly have supported. lie
believed there would be no difficulty whatever if minis-
ters would reduce our establishments to what was
really necessary in bringing the s xpenditure of the
country within the income. (Hear, hear.) What a
fudge it was to talk about war with France or any oiler
country. (Cheers) Suppose a war did come, how long
would it take to prepare for it ? But there was no danger
of anything of the kind. The people of foreign countries
were now too busily occupied in improving their own domes-
tic institutions to think of interfering with others. (Hear,
hear.) If subjects were wise, war was a game which govern-
ments would not dare to play. (Hear, hear.) There was
net the remotest chance or prospect of a foreign invasion.
We were at peace with all the world, and yet our expendi-
ture for the naval and military establishments of the country
was to be increased—(hear, hear)—and that, too, by means
of a tax which, as regarded a large class of the people, was
no better than a robbery. (Hear, hear.) All tase,, to be
just, must be equal; but the income tax pressed heavily
and unketly on the poor man—the man who came just
within its grip—while the property tax scarcely
touched the rich man. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord op-
posed the tax when it was first proposed by the right hon.
baronet, and he had not adduced a single argument for
changing his opinion. (Hear.) Why was not the sliding-
scale—which some hon. gentlemen were so partial to—
adopted in the case of this tax ? (Hear, hear.) lie
hoped between this and Monday the noble lord—who
had given way on one point—would reconsider the
question and propose a renewal of the tax of 3 per
cent. only; and, as he valued the public peace, with-
draw the odious 5 per cent. onthe prefits of industry. (Hear.)
Alter a few words from Mr. EWSII7, the vote wan with-
drawn.
Mr. WARD then proposed a grant of 1,400,0001. in part of
the navy estimates. This included no whole vste, but was
800,000/. on account of the first vote for wages, 400,0001,
on the second (victuals), and 200,0001. military pensions and
allowances. Ile said the Admiralty were most anxious to
carry out the principle of economy in their dep,rtment,
and shouldbe happy to receive any suggestion for that purpose.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he did not assent to thew esti•
mates. He was not certainly very conversant with the navy
estimates, but he was prepared to prove that the army esti-
mates might be reduced by 600,0001., without taking a single
man from the service.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said (in
reply to questions) that on the lat of January, 1848, there
was a balance of the 8,000,0001. raised last year in the Ex-
chequer, but, without notice, he could not state the precise
amount ; that credit would be given for the 450,0001. China
money in this year ; and that 19,750,0001. would be the pro-
Wile amount of customs for the year ending sth of April,
1849.
The vote being put from the chair,
Mr. ROBINSON said he felt it incumbent on him as a
public duty to move that the chairman report progress, and
wet leave to sit again; bat the motion, not receiving any
favour in the house, was not pressed ; and on the question
being again put,
Captain I'ECHELL said he would not delay the public
service by interposing his motion now, but on the fitting oc-
casion he certainly would call attention to the claims of the
paymasters and pursers of the royal navy for a retirement,
end to those of the commanders, lieutenants, and masters,
for promotion.
The resolutions, after a protest from Col. SIBTIIORP,
against them, as unconstitutional, inasmuch as they were
voting money without knowing from what source they were
to obtain it, wire severally agreed to.
Mr. F. MAULE rose to ask for a vote of 1,800,0001. on ac-
count of the charges for land forces, the whale sum required
for which was 3,800,0001.
Mr. B. OSBORNE considered the amount too much to
ask for under existing circumstances, and moved a vote of
600,0001. instead.
Col. SI BTIiORP was of opinion that they ought not to
vote a shilling until they knew where it was to come from.
Mr. R. YORKE moved that the chairman report

progress.
Mr. F. MAULE assured the house that the turn he asked,
which was not a moiety of the whole, was absolutely neces-
, tory fo carrying no the public service.
Mr. BERRIES would record every effort to effect wbat-

ever reductions tumid be made in the esdesatee, but would
be no party to the amendments now proposed.
Mr. B. OSBORNE (after an appeal from Mr. Houswax)
consented to withdraw his amendment, but stated it to be
his intention of going into the minutest details of the army

estimates.
The resolution was then agreed to, as was also one grant-
ing a rote of 500,0001. out of 1,200,0001., on accountd
asked of the
outpensieners. The Chairman reported progress, an
leave to sit again.
The house resumed, and the report was ordered to be
brought up to-morrow (this day).
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
Lord MORPETH, in moving the second reading of this
bill, said that • fair interval mould be allowed before he
called upon the house to discuss its details. Ile observed (in
reply to Sir B. Hall), respecting • bill for the metropolis,
that the question was of so comprehensive • nature as to re-
quire not one but a series of bills, the first of which he hoped
to present in a very short time. The present bill (the noble
lord said, in reply to Mr. H. Benxi:Lev) would interfere
largely with the local boards, but would not interfere with
the functions of the poor-law guardians.
Mr. MACKINNON observed, that great praise was due
to the noble lord for his exertions on this 'abject; and (in
reply to an objection from Mr. Urquhart) said that, so far
from this bill being framed on the principle of centralisation,
its machinery would be entirely in the hands of the local
boards.
Mr. WAKLEY regretted to find that while the govern-
ment were continually
.patronising the legal profession there
was not a single provision in thill bill for the introduction of
a medical officer. He perceived that the general board was
to consist of the chief commissioner and four persons
&r:%:::ledthebynott lord consent wt
has t tthesetwo, t
who would
I
have to do all the work and must be mn of ability, should
be legally qualed meinbers tel the medic I profession ?
Lord MURPETH said that the bill gave the Treasury the
power of appointing a number of superintending inspectors,
who he thought ought to be medical men or engineers.
according to the peculiar exigencies of the case. Again, the
bill gave the local boards the power of appointing officers to
carry out its provisions, and amongst those alma he had no
doubt that medical men would hold a prominent place.
lt,specting the two paid memb.rs of the general board he
could give no more stringent promise than that the govern-
ment would select the beet and mosteffieient men they could.
Lord D. STUART hoped that hon. gentlemen would nut
discuss the details of the bill in so thin a house. He
thought if it was intended to carry the up' rats in of the
bill into the metropolis it ought to be declared ; if it was not,
then a clause ought to be introduced to exempt the metro-

polis.
Mr. HENLEY said, while he admitted the measure had
been much improved since last year, yet he thought sufficient I
care had not been taken to guard against the construction of
too extnsive districts by the inspectors to be appointed in I
the different localities. He also was of opinion that another
difficulty would seise from the mode proposed of tme,,ferring
all the burdens and debts of the existing local conirni.sion, rs
to the new districts, who would not have the power to resist
them. Some amendment he also thought would lie required
in the clauses which had reference to existing waterworks,
which involved great complication.
Lord MOHPETH said the suggestions which had been
thrown out should receive every consideration on the part of
her Majesty's government.
Mr. SLANEY expressed his thanks to the noble lord, for
having had the courage to persevere with the measure, which,
while it benefited the working classes, would, he believed,
prove one of true economy.
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.

ANDOVER ELECTION.
The SPEAKER acquainted the house that he hod re.
ceived a letter from the petitioners, complaining of an undue
election and return for the borough of Andover, stating it
was not their intention to proceed with the same.
The order for taking the petition into consideration was
accordingly read and discharged.
WAYS AND MEANS.
Mr. BERNAL brought up the report of the resolutions
adopted in committee of ways and means, which were
agreed to, and leave given to bring in a bill founded thereon.
JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCITE
QUER the committee on the Jewish Disabilities Bill was
postponed to Friday next.
PASSENGERS BILL.
Mr. LABOUCHERE moved the second reading of the
Passengers Bill.
Mr. HUME wished to knew what course the government
intended to take with respect to this bill ? He regretted to
find the his predictions on a former occasion of the failure of
the enactmentsthen made had proved correct—that failure had
really been preyed, and it had been shown that all the legisla-
tion whichhnd yet taken place had not prevented the abuses
which exist. One point to which his attention had been
called by a letter he had that day received from New York
was well worthy consideration. He alluded to an improve-
ment in the ventilation of the emigrant ships, and the fixing
the cook-house or caboose below, instead of on deck, to
which, when the hatches were battened down in stormy
weather, the poor emigrants could not have access in cases of
severe illness and absolute need of the comforts which even
a supply of hot water would afford. lie had no wish to stop
the progress of the present bill, but to throw out those points
as Dempsey to be kept in view, in order, :or the sake of
humanity, to prevent the evils which at present had bean
shown to exist on board emigrant ships.
Mr. LABOUCHEUE concurred with the hon. member
for Montrose (Mr. Hume) in the opinion he had expressed
that something must be done by the government and the
legislative to prevent a recurrence of the evils to which
Canada had been exposed by the emigrants who had arrived
in that country during the last year. The evils he alluded
to had arisen not merely from the state of fever with
which emigrants from Ireland had embarked, and which
they had carried with them into Canada, but from the groan
mismanagement on board ship, and the absence of proper
regulations and :control on board the vessels in which the
uaiortunate creatures were crowded. In this state of
things, the Colonial-office and the commissioners of emi-
gration had applied themselves to the consideration of what
alterations of the law they would recommend, and the re-
sult of their recommendation was the bill now before the
house. The main alterations which were proposed were as
follows: In the first place, the bill increased the space
allotted to each passenger on board the emigrant ships,
and the space was increased from ten feet to twelve
feet for each passenger. Another alteration proposed was
with reference to the quantity of provisions carried out. At
present the owners undertook to provide a certain quantity
of food for each emigrant during the voyage ; and it wan
expected that every emigrant would bring on board some
provisions of his own. Now last year, from Ireland, the
emigrants crowded on boars without food of their own,
relying on the provision made for them in their passage ;
but that provision only amounted to a wretched pit-
tance per day, and was wholly insufficient. It was
therefore proposed by this bill to provide that every
emigrant ship going to North America, should be
obliged, like the ships to Australia and elsewhere,
to take out provisions sufficient to sustain the lives of the
passengers during the whole voyage. The next alteration
proposed in the law was one which had excited the greatest
opposition on the part of the opponents of the measure, but
to which he (Mr. Labeuchere) attached the highest im-
portance. It was a proviso that in every emigrant
ship there should be appointed a responsible govern-
ment officer to protect the emigrants, to see that the
rules and regulations were strictly obeyed and complied
with, and, if necessary, to exhibit complaints to the proper
(Hear,
authorities on the arrival of the ship at its destination.
hear.) At present the evidence before the house
showed that nuke what laws the legislature pleased, they
would be set at nought and derided, unless some such su-
perintendence was provided. These superintendents would
be selected from warrant officers in the ?levy. It had been
urged that a surgeon ought to be provided on board every
emigrant ship, and he wished be was inea condition to re•
commend the house to pus a provision to secure that object.
His noble friend at the head of the colonial department
(Earl Grey) had been anxious to make such a proposal, but,
after the fullest inquiry, it bad been found to be
impossible to venture to make it, inasmuch to a suffi-
cient supply of medical men could not be found to
undertake the duty. His noble friend and the emi-
gration commissioner had reluctantly abstained from
rogosing regulations to that effect,. but they were not
wit out hopes that if the house sanctioned the regulation,
requiring a superintendent to be taken out on board each
emigrant ship, it would be the indirect means of inducing
captains and owners to take out a surgeon in more in-
stances than at present they did. If for instance they ap-
pointed a surgeon who was a well qualified and experienced
man, the Colonial-office would appoint him also to the office
of superintendent, and thus the ship would carry a surgeon
at half the expense that now was entailed upon the owners.
The estimated expense of each superintendent was for the
I voyage 201., and ls. per head upon the passengers taken
out, and 10/. for his return passage home. Such were the
general features of the bill, which it was of consequence
Should be passed before the emigration season commencethed.
With that view he should propose,
to refer
bill to a select committee to examine its details,
by which he trusted any lengthened discussion upon
it would be saved. Before he sat down he must state
that he had received an account of the state of an emigrant
dtip given by Mr. Stephen Dc Vent, a brother of Sir Aubrey
Delfere, who last year had gone out as a steerage passenger,
with a view to ascertain the real condition in which that
dam were placed. His account showed fully the necessity
of this or a similar measure. Under such circumstances he
(Mr. Laboucbere) Dusted the house would accede to its
second reading, and also to his proposition that the bill be
I referred to a select committee. As to the consolidation of
the existing law, it would requires bill of at leapt 70 clauses,
which he could not hope to pass in time for the coming sea-
son of emigration. He was, however, willing, after the bill
had been read a third time, not to move that it should pass,
but to withdraw it, and embody its provisions in a bill of
consolidation, provided the house would enter into a com-
pact with him not to re-open the discussion of the details,
but to deal with the measure as merely a consolidation bill.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL could not understand why this
bill was to be hung up in a select committee. Above all
measures, it ought to be passed through the house quickly ,•
emigration had already commenced; 4,000 persons had sailed
for Canada since December; and he believed that emigration
from Ireland, instead of being checked by late events, would
be increased. No one but the owners of emigrant ships
could disapprove of this measure ; and, therefore, unless the
government were dissatisfied with their own bill, why should
they send it up-stairs for at least a fortnight? As to the
consolidation proposed, he trusted it would not be tried with-
out ministers ware quite certain of success.
Sir G. GREY thought it would be better to past the bill
through all its stage, at present, and defer the proposed con-
solidation till a later period of the session. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH consideted the consolidation of the passen-

Act to