The Express.
London, England, 1848-08-12 00:00:00

Mr. HENLEY said the hon. member for the West
Riding had not included the whole expense in his estimate
ot a million, for there was the additional sum paid by the
Indian government. He thought it a great hardship that
the public were compelled to pay the higher postage on their
India letters once a month,
Mr, M'GREGOR said the line of packets from Liverpool
to the Urited States fully repaid the expense.
Mr. HU tdE would unuert ike to contract to convey the
mail from Southampton to Alexandria twice a month for
the same amount as was now paid for the monthly convey-
ance. (Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. COWPER said it would not be fair to the hon. mem-
ber to accept hie very generous offer. He could not do the
service for the amount now paid, as the vessel which would
otherwise be lying idle at Malta was now sent on to Alex
andel. • therefore the only additional expense was the cwt of
the coals.
The vote was then agreed to.
MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
On the first v0te,4,t:e231 , part of a sum of 120,9231., for
the repairs, &e., of public buildings ; furniture fur various
public departments; cheeps for lighting and watching, and
rates and taxes • also for the maintenance and 'epee,' of
royal palace, and works in the royal gardens,
Mr. V. SMITH complained ot the meaner in which the
estimates were brought forward during the present session.
What appeared to him to be the result of the inquiry into
the naval and miscellaneous estimates, was that there was
wanted in the governmental departments of the country a
proper financial check. (Hear, hear.) No committee of
that house, i yen if they were all as well acquainted with the
subject as bin hon. friend the member for Montrose, could
control the estimates as well as an executive department.
(Hear.) It was the custom to prepare the estimates at a
much larger amount than was necessary; but on the other
hand it often happened that a much larger expenditure was
incurred than the estimates would warrant. A considerable
portion of the expenses of the country, the revenue boards
for instance, never came under the supervision of parliament.
It was very doubtful whether those boards were necessary at
all. But at all events a great portion of the expenditure of
the country never came before that house. (Hear, heat.)
There was one question of importance with which the com-
mittee had not dealt, except partially—namely, the ques-
tion of public salari, s. He was of opinion that that queetion
should be dealt with as a whole, and nut separate') . ltthey
took the report of 1831 as a basis, all they would have to do
would he to consider whether the circumstances ol the pre-
sent day differed from those of MI, as regarded the ex
pease% incident to official life. Ile believe d that they did, for
railroads end other economic improvements had been ex- I
tended since that period; besides that, the tendency of their
recent f. gislation was to diminish the expenses of living. I
But the largest question of all was the question of the colo-
nial estimates. When those estimates came under discussion
he hoped the hon. gentleman the Under Secretary for the
Colonies would be able to say that a greater proportion of
colonial expenditure would be thrown on the colonies them-
selves than was hitherto the case. It should
hey the duty of
the•government also to take care, when reduced the
number of aim" and made superannuation', not to make
any new appointments, but to call in such persons from the
superannuation list se might be still capable of discharging
their duty. lie hoped the tight hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor ot the Exchequer would state how many of the re-
commendations of the committee he was prepared to adopt,
and if he rejected any, on what account he did so.
Mr. OSBORNE did not keow whether the right. hon.
gentleman addressed his observations to the house in his
capacity of chairman of the committee, or whether he had
been deputed to make them by her Majesty's guy, rn-
meat, because the usual practice was for a minister
to come down and make a atatemert. (Hear, hear.)
he report on the miscellaneous estimate was in singular
contrast with the report on the naval estimates. (Hear,
hear.) It was bare and meagre • in parts there was some
pretty writing and a great deal of bad grammar. (Laughter.)
The committee decided on the salaries of the ministers of the
crown and of a few clerks, and that was all. The right hon.
gentleman would not go into the qua stion of the salary of
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but the committee recom-
mended the abolition of the Queen's plates in Ireland. A
more disgraceful estimate was never submitted to the house.
The most opposite things were put together, as Windsor
Castle andPhe Hackney Coach-office. Every item ought to
ne distinctly set down, instead of which all was con-
fusion. He did not see why there should he any,
distinction between public and private accounts the
present estimate was a fraudulent one, anti contained
positive mierepreeentstions. He called on the committee to
insist on some :planation of the various items. The com-
mittee evidently gave the go-by t everything useful. (Hear,
hear.) Their report, however, recomme niled a more eco-
comic superintendence of tl.e Woods and Forests de-
partment.
Mr. H. DItUMMOND must confess that he was called
on to vote on a document on the present occasion to wetting
which it was utterly impossible for him to form any opinion.
(Hear, hear.) Ile had no means of forming any opinion as
to the soundness of any one of the items contained in the
papers before the hon. gentleman who sj»ke lase
papers out some extraordinary blunders. Here was
onother incongruous it, in all in one line, "far oil, gas,
and light in the House of Commons and St. Mar-
tin's public baths and wash houses." Certain lie was,
that many things which were now brought forward in
this way would not have been tolerated in former times.
He felt so sensibly on these matters, he thought them so de-
rogatory to the honour of the crown, so tatul to the interest
of the royal family, that he should only add to the evil which
lie dcp.9,atea by allatt:ng any Itarther to them. Rut ho
would appeal to any gentleman in that house, and sett if he
would like to have many parts of his own establishment
brought forward and made the subject not only of discus-
sion in that house, hot in every pothouse in the kingdom,
end whether it would be a proper way to uphold his dignity
to have his establishment no canvassed ? lie could not
un-
derstand how the public servants of the crown, who
must be brought into intimate personal relation-
ship with the sovereign, could allow such things.
The Woods and Forests had been alluded to. There was a
large property in this country possessed by the e Nereign,
not as sovereion, hut as the largest landowner in this coun-
try. lie knew enough to know now that no one had been
so ill send—no one so grimly cheated —as the crown.
(Cheers.) But he aid not intend to enter into these things;
he merely rose to pmtest against them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then roe.
He said he nester, within his experience, remembered a
speech being made upon the ietroduction of the miscella-
neous estimates. The reason why items were lumped toge-
ther was to afford to the house the fullest information as to
the particulars for which the public money was required to
be paid. With regard to the observations of Mr. Vernon
Smith, he assured him he thought the inquiry of
the miscellaneous estimates committee had been attended
with very beneficial results.. lie agreed with him in
his opinion that the real reduction of expenditure must be
made by the executive government ; and in the greater por-
tion of the general recommendations of the report he en-
tirely concurred. With regard to details, he would not go
into th. it consideration now, for they could be discussed as
, each item was proposed for thel consideration rot the house.
Col. SIIITHORP should like to ask why they were
sitting thee, upon the 11th of August ? A greater rigma
role—a mere unsatisfactory chaos of a speech than that of
the Chancellor ot the Exchequer—he had never heard. Ile
had told them nothing ; he had left them to conjecture
everything. A bong as large as a church bible was laid
upon the [Ode, and they were told to get their facts out in;
that as they could. But that would snot do for him. He
was disposed to irt there de die in diem, and go into every
detail of these estimates before he voted them.
Mr- OSBORNE said the Chancellor of the Exchequer
treated this subject in the j. unting sort of way in which he
usually addressed the house. Ile involve.' the subject in a
cloud of words, and in reality said omelet. It was all very
well for him to get up in the flath•iii-the-pan and jack-in
office sort of way, and talk about the matter as if he was at a
family tea.party ; but be (Mr Osberne) called upon him
in the name of the public to explain. (near, hear.) Now,
let hies ask, what was meant by the Museum of Economic
Geology ? Let him ask what was to be done about the royal
palaces? Let him ask what assurance was to be given that
the estimates should he laid bef re them in a better state
next year ? Unless he received satisfactory replies he should
divide the house upon the first estimate.
Dr. BO WRING should be sorry if it were supposed that
the committee on these estimates had made a complete
report. It was impmsible that they could do en. Their ex
amination w s not into matters of principle, but into quo '-
times of detail. No less than 11;5 matters were re f ored to
them. Why, the committee was not able to do its outy.
The immense mass of matter referred to it precluded the
possibility of a satisfactory performaece of their (twits. It
was very n rural, therefore, that their report should be con-
sidered very bare and meagre. He conteodel fur the neces-
sity of having a central office of Accounts, to investigate.
every item, and that every pound that was paid to the state
should be handed over at once to the State Treasury, no de-
partment being allowed, as now, to intercept millions of
money and apply it almost irrespon-ittly, rendering in a vast
proportion of c ises 1,0 particular account either to the gene-
ral executive or to the House of Commons. lie was glad
to understand that the government was taking meseuri a fur
I carrying into effect one very important auggestion of the
commilt e, that all fees received by public departments
should be paid over in gross to the public Treasury, to be
applied by the responsible authorities to the public service.
The fact was, that every department of the state would
occupy the close attention of a committee, in order to arrive
at any satisfactory result.
Mr. HUME certainly considered it would have been most
desirable to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to
what extent he proposed to act upon the recommendations of
the committee. It was a great defect in the preparation of
public information Within subject, that the question of sala-
ries had not been gone into, and this WB9 a point on which
he shouid be glad to have the virus of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer expressed. There had been a revision of public
salaries under the report of the committee of 1831. Many
reductionshall been effected, and the house was well diem. ed
now again to revise the salaries in all our departments. lie del
not concur with. his hon. friend in thinking that the report
wan all barren ; he considered that it contained much
that was highly valuable. As to the royal palaces,
ho had three months since moved for detailed returns
on this subject, but he had hitherto seen nothing of the re-
turns sought. lie fully shared the objections which had
been stated to the incongruous grouping of the various items
which went to make up the large estimates about to be pro-
posed. There was one stem, which he would at once specify
as most objectionable: the estimate for rents of public offices;
these seemed to be perfectly preposterous in several instances.
As to the Museum of Economic Geology he was of opinion
that, if carried out as announced, this institution would he
productive of great benefit to the public. He repeated his
desire that the government would give some explanation es
to their judgment on the report of the committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think it would be a con-
venient course to apply the example of the Secretary of the
Admiralty to the proposition of the miscellaneous estimates.