The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—MoNDAT, Aram 26.
The Low) Citaxend.oit.took.lll!eseat shortly after 5 o'clock.

PUBLIC BUSIKD►J.

PETITIONS. —By tisefaeo(liiceaosn, flan • place in
Fife-hire, and from the prOM of Abernwhey, against
the notch Registration of &c., Blil ; Irons another
place, against the Poor Removal Am. Viecuunt Reisocase
sacral petitions to the moo effect. Lord Raoxonsiss Roo;
• body of protestant das enters, against the Edneaeoe eriscote:
Rom wawa pieces In Ireland, for an alteratio• eh the
law of landlord mad tarn!; and a number of other rattans, of
which oaths...the object, nor the pima from wheace they aNlisatedi
mold be heard in the reporters' (gallery.
tiEOON") READING.—Army Semis* Bill.
NOTle F.S OF MOTlON.—ltermacirratiss Pons eon SOMA ND.
—The Earl of iloureron. on Friday next, to more for the appaintemmt
of a select committee on the subject of the Election of Scotch Ram,
@militia Peers.

---
MESSAGE FROM THE COMIONS.-fleveral hills wore brought
up from the Cbeateope, but their take did hot rehab the 'paltry.
--- - - -

POOR REMOVAL ACT.

Viscount MELB4si.ilikliTifteTpresen ling the petitions
noticed above, moved that they should be referred to the
committee sitting on the subject of settlement.
The Duke of RICHMOND agreed in thinking; that much
evil had resulted to the poor from this measure ; but, with
the expectation of parliament being dissolved in a short
time, there was no chance of a general measure on the law
of settlement being broughtforward.
Lord REDESDALE denied that the law had operated
injuriously towards the poor. All must agree that it had
been a useful experiment, and he hoped it would be allowed
to have a fair trial.
After a short conversation the subject dropped.
ARMY SERVICE BILL.

Earl OREY, in moving the second reading of this bill,
said he had declined on a former occasion, in answer to a
noble lord opposite (the Marquis of Londonderry), to enter
into a premature dissuasion on this subject, and had under-
taken, when the bill came before the house, to state the
reasons which had induced the government to recommend
such a measure to parliament. He must first remark, that
this bill ought not to be considered as a single and isolated
measure. Were their lordships to consider it apart from
other measures previously adopted, and still in operation,
they would fail to have an accurate Idea of it. It formed
part of a general course of policy, of a series of measures,
which durum the last twenty or twenty-five yeas", bad been
adopted fur raising the character of the army, and improving
the condition of the soldier. The noble marquis (London-
derry) had doubted the competency of the government to
form a correct judgment on a subject exclusively military
but u the government had always the means at hand for
obtaining the bent professional advice and assistance, with
such advice they were competent to form a sound judgment.
Experience had proved that no injury, but very great benefit
had resulted to the army from the circumstance that the
consideration of its condition and regulations had net been
reserved exclusively to those who were professionally con-
nected with it, but had also occupied the attention of servants
of the crown and members of the legislature who had not
served in its ranks. He differed from the noble marquis in
thinking that there was not only room, but great need, for
improvement in the army ; such improvement had, in fact,
been progressing many years, and oeght not now to he
stopped. Far from undervaluing the achievements of the
British army, no one entertained a more enthusiastic admi-
ration for is great exploits ; but it was perfectly consistent
with that feeling to observe with pain the defects of our
military system, and to be anxious for its utmost im-
provement. In proof of the fallacy of the arguments
of the noble marquis, he might appeal to the illustrious
military authority now amorqpt them (the Duke of Wel-
lington). The noble duke, in his despatches,—the best and
most authentic record of his achievements, and there-
fore his moat imperishable monument,—(hear, hear)—
had repeatedly described the difficulties with which he had
to struggle, in consequence of the defects of the army he
commanded ; and unlesa those difficulties were borne in mind
his great achievements could not properly be appreciated.
He had, to a great extent, to create the means by which those
immortal victories were obtained ; to discipline and instruct
both the officers and the soldiers be commanded; and to
form that army, by the aid of which, in the course of a few
years, he rolled back the tide of tongued that had overflowed
nearly the whole continent, and ended by victory on the
plains of Toulouse, that memorable contest which ha had
sommenced on the shores of the Atlantic. The meet success-
ful army must be called upon to retreat sometimes; to do this
well was a part of their duty ; but it was on these occasions
that the noble duke bad most to complain of the deficiency

dike army he commanded ; and in peace those defects were
lemon perceptible. He would endeavour to point oat
*Oar lordalups the improvements which had since been
gradually introduced, and then to show that this measure
was strictly in conformity with those already adopted, and
formed a most important step in the progressive improve.
meat that had been so long going on. The first point in
our military system which had attracted great attention
on the part of the public, was the extent to which cor-
poral punishment existed. The lash was unfortunately
the main instrument of maintaining subordination; greet
and email offences were alike punished by it ; and for greet
offences it was used with a degree of unsparing severity,
from which, at the present day, we should recoil. So recendy
as 1825, there was an instance of a general court-martial
having passed a sentence of no less than 1,900 lashes ; and of
these, no fewer than 1,200 were actually inflioted. This
subject had repeatedly occupied attention ; but it was long
before any alteration was made. Only in 1815 had it been
made illegal to bring out a man a second time for punish-
mint, when he had been sentenced to receive a greater num-
ber of lashes than human nature could bear at once. A con-
siderable time elapsed before any further change took place.
It was not until 1832 that the number of lashes to be in-
flicted by a regimental court-martial had been reduced from
360 to 200, and by a di-trict court-martial from 500 to 300 ;
but, even then, no limit had been imposed on the number of
lashes that might be awarded by a general court•martial. On
the 24th November, 1833, Lord Hill restricted the infliction
of corporal punishment to a very small number of the
more serious offences; and by the Mutiny Act of 1836, the
'Lumber of lashes to be inflicted was still further
',Aimed. For the first time, a limit was imposed
to the power of the general court-martial; the greatest
number of lashes was fixed at 200; and the greatest
n..mber to be inflicted by district and regimental courts-
=Artie, at 150 and 100 respectively. Fiaally, by a general
order issued by the noble duke (Wellington) in August last,
the number of lashes to be given, under any circumstances.
for any offence, was moat properly reduced to 60. Thus, in
21 years, from inflicting I,WO lashes as part of a sentence of
1,900, we had come down to a state of things. when, for any
offence. 60 lashes was the maximum. The practical ad-
ministration of the law had diminished in severity no less
than the law itself. In the last few years, another change
had been adopted with very great advantage. When corporal
punishments first began to be restricted, military offenders
' were emit to the ordinary prisons, where they were neces-
sarily mixed up with felons of all deneriptioni; and this
system was productive of the worst remelts. In the last few
Yvan, enetesesents had been made for the establishment of
military prisons where they were most required, else
cells for the infliction of solitary confinement in barracks.
He would now point oat what had been dose
to improve the condition of the soldier, end by
that means to render punishment less necessary.
One of the most remarkable points was the condition of the
barrack which, especially in tropical climates, were wholly
and alt:gether insufficient for the accommodation of the
soldier. The situations had been badly chosen ; the build-
ings were badly constructed ; and the space allowed was
Quite inedeguste, regard being had to the health of the
men. Only 100 cubic feet were allowed for each soldier,
whereas it hod been found by experience that the lowest de-
gree of since to be allowed for each soldier was 600 cubic
feet. He was aware that the Board of Ordnance bad taken
immense p tins greatly to improve the barrages; but he was
sorry to se.: that improvement was still very far from the
point whir was desirable, and that barrack secimarodation
was still very far from what it ought to be, as the noble mar-
quis behind him (the Marquis of Anglesea), was fully
eemi-
ble of. The noble marquis was anxious to effect im-
provements, and they were proceeding as fast as the pecu-
niary mews of the country would permit. Again, much
had been done to improve the conditsen of the moldier by the
establishment within barracks of places of recreation and of
libraries. Another subject still more closely connected with
the health of the troops was the severe pressure of colonial
service, which was felt to be one cause why service in the
British army was less popular; therefore to diminish the
pressure of the colonial service was an object of the greatest
miportence. (Hear, hear.) In this respect an improved
system had be cis adopted, and with to the supply of
provisions to troops serving in tropical climates a very great
improvement I.ad taken place. So lately as in the year Had
it was the practice in the West ladies to allow troops fresh
provisions olds two days in each week—the other five days
they received r alone of aalterovisiens. Now, however, may
a very small proportion comparatively of salt provisions was
used, and by • id by he should be able to state the actual
effects which tl.is alteration had effected in the health al
troops serving in tropical climates. He would, however,
proceed at press it with the recapitulation of the improvenseees
which had been effected. He must remind their lordships that
until a recent period there was no distinction made between
the good soldier and the bad soldier, except that the former
of course escaped punishment. No doubt the good soldier
had the prospect of promotion, but as to any positive
advantage, the Rood and bad was entirely on a lemi.
Each, after 14 'ears' service, received an increase of turf
pence per day piy, and if disabled was discharged with •
pension. In this respect the advantage was given to the had
I soldier; because the habitual drunkard who, by constant
habits of intoxicaiion, ruined his health, and incapacitated
himself for service, was, at the end of 21 years, discharged
with a pension ; but the good, well-conducted, and sober man,
who had resisted the temptations to drink, and had taken care
of his health, was at the and of 21 years refused his perukes,
and thereby compelled to continue in the service. In the
year 1830, a change had been introduced in this respect,
and the increase of pay was made dependent, not upon
length of service, bat upon good conduct, and the system
they introduced had, by a subsequent warrant passed by
the late Secretary at War, Mr. Sidney Herbert, been further
improved, and increased encouragement given to the good
soldier. Another measure of great importance in reference
to the enceuragemeut of good conduct among the soldiers
was the establishment of regimental savings banks; and,
lastly, much had been done for the instruction of the
soldier. Long aeo regimental schools had been established
the
his Royal Highness the late Duke of York ; but within
the last few years me .snreo had been adopted for improving
the schools, and it was further intended to improve the
course of iostruction of the men themselves. This was of
vast importance, bemuse the %claire of the discharged
soldier depended on the degree of instruction which he bad
received in the service. The old soldier was peculiarly
fitted, from his habits of discipline and order, to fill many
situation., such as in the police and upon railroads, provided
only that be had received the requisite amouut of instruc-
tion; and therefore the plan in contemplation was calculated
to reader the military career desirable to every class of the
labouring population. (Hear, hear.) Having now Noted
generally some of the most important mownow
within the last few years for the beside of dr
soldier, he would now call attention to the practised
effects which these measures had produced. There were
two test which might be applied, to show the real improves
meats which bad taken place in the state and condition ef
the army the first was, the amount of punishment's
inflicted, and the next, she mortality which had takes ploy
in the service, especially in the colonies. In both now"
the improvement was extremely remarkable. Withrow',
to punishments, he regretted that the imperfection dealer=
of an old date made it impossible to make that ciao ewe
perisan which he wished, but from the returns now Wire
parliament he should be able to show that the improvement
this respect had been very great. From the year 1818, be
had the hospital returns of the number of men sent into
hospital, after receiving corporal punishment, &c., in a cer-
tain member of foreign stations. The whole force employed
in these stations was '&,900 men, and of that force the nuns.
her of men sent to hospital after receiving corporal
,ennishment was, in one year, 2,273 men, being at the
rats of 80 men punished for every thousand men nervier
who emu, in the course of last year, the returns showed that
ceep,,,,al punishments in the same stations had been at the
rate of oily four men for every thousand men serving, being
a diminuCon in the proportion of one to twenty. (Hear.)
But what he confessed au rpnsed him when he came to look
into this matter, was to hod not only that corporal, but other
punishments, had, within the last 21 years, diminished to a
very great extent. He lied expected to find that the dimi-
nution of corporal punishments might be accounted for by
the substitution of tithe' modes of punishment ; but this was
not the case; on the am vary, there had been a great dimi-
nution in all sorts of punishment, and especially in those of
the severeet kind. Bete .en the years 1826 and 1835, both
inclusive there had be en no fewer than 76 sentences of
death pained by courts-martial ; of these, the sentence was
inflicted in 41 eases, the remaining 35 being com-
muted to transportatioa. In the five years, from 1331
to 1835, the number of soldiers sentenced to transportation,
exclusive of those serving id the Eat Indies, was 178. Since
that period, except in the year 1838, when a mutiny broke
out in Trinidad, in one of the West India regiments, the
number of capital punishitents bad diminished ; and, though
the army was larger in strength, he found that the number
sentenced to death was, in 1839, three; in 1840, only two;
in each of the next four ) ears only one; and, in 1845, only
two. (Hear, hear.) Transportation had also diminished,
and the numbers eentenc, d to that punishment in 1844 and
1846 were respectively 160 and 126, though the strength of
the army had been increased. With respect to sentences of
imprisonment, he found that in 1838 the army consisted of
96,800 men, and of these 7,900 had been sentenced to impri-
sonment; in 1845 the fore: was 124,400, sad yet, with this
increase, the number of men tentenetd to imprison-
ment remained about the same—namely, 7,861 men.
(Hear.) This was satisfactory evidence of the im-
provement which had taken place with regard to the
discipline of the army—(hear, hear)--and he now woald
proceed to show the diminution which, owing to recent
measures, had taken place in the mortality in foreign sta-
tions. In the year 1833 an inquiry had been made into
this subject, and statistical tables had been prepared with
great are and ability by Dr. Marshall and Colonel Bullock,
showing what had been the progress of mortality among the
troops serving abroad. He (Earl Grey) held in his hand •
document showing a comparison as to the health of the army
in foreign stations during the last two years, up to March
31, 1846, with the state curing the twenty years between
1816 and 1835. This document showed, that in the Medi-
terranean stations in the twenty years between 1815 and 183.5,
the mortality was at the rate of 23 5.10 for every thousand
men, whereas, is the last two years, the mortality had been
reduced to the ram of 14 in every thousand men. In
North America, including Bermuda and Newfoundland, the
mortality had been reduced from 21 2-10 to 13 7-10 in
every thousand, and in Australia and St. Helena the reduc-
tion had been from 15 to 12 8•10 in every thousand. In
Jamaica in the 20 years up t i 1835 the mortality among the
white troops had been at the rate of 128 6-10 for every thou-
sand men in each year ; but in the course of the last two
yearo, partly by changing the situation of the barracks,
partly by keeping the white troops on the higher ggroround
and partly by the improved rations, the rate of motlity had
been reduced from 128 9-10 to 29 7-10 annually. (Hear,
hear.) In short, the result of these returns showed that in
all tropical colonies the rate of mortality had been reduced
from M 2-10 to 42 1-10 fur (very thousand meat annually.
In this statement he (Earl Grey) had excluded India, where
the improvements had not been what they ought to be. The'
subject, however, occupied the attention of his tight hon.
friend the Secretary at War, and he hoped in a few years
the results in that quarter of the globe would be equally

satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) He hared that he had
wearied the house with these statistical details, but
he felt it necessary to submit them to the considerati
of their lordships. Without claiming credit for any p r-
ticular government, the improvements he had detailed had
been carried out by successive adusiuistrations, but still fits
provement had not yet reached the pitch which was re-
quired. The condition of the army was not yet approved by
the better disposed of the working dame, from whom its
ranks must be furnished. True, that a soldier received
7s. 7d. per week in the early stage el his military eareer—a
sum quite equal to that earned weekly by the agricultural
labourers of Dorsetehire, Wiltshire, and other southern
counties • but still they would not embrace the military pro-
fession, because they considered the life of a soldier to he a
tort of slavery for life. This was not felt by the 'soldiers
themselves, but by their relations and friends. Now, if the
soldier had the certainty of returning after a given period to
his native village and to the friends of his youth, he would
shrink far less than he now did from enlistment. It wag
perfectly true that troops in sufficient numbers were ob-
tained, but be wished to see the time when, instead of the
idle, thoughtless, and the profligate, the rural population of
good character would embrace the profession and that re-
muffing parties might be able to say, " 'We will take
no men but those of good character." (Hear, hear)
When that could be done there would be a great change sa
the character of the army, and to produce this no improve•
went was so nemeary as to teach those who were invited to
enter it, that they did not contract an engagement for life,
but were at liberty, if they thought fit, alter a short period oa
service, to leave its ranks, end icturn to civil life. The ergo-
ment of the noble marquis the other night was, that if wen
were allowed to enlist for tan years., at the end of that thee
every one of them would leave, and the beet soldiers would
be lost. This was assumed, and it showed how completely
his argument was founded on the npinions he had formed
from the state of thingeas they masted in his own experience,
when there was lea improvement than had taken place of
late rill. He (Earl Grey) would show how unfouudel it
was; but even if this asuruption was correct, it added ten-
fold strength to his (Earl Orel's) argument as to the
absolute necessity of a measure which would render the
service popular. He thought also that its indirect influe lee
on commanding officers would be very advantageous. When
they knew that the soldier had the power of leaving hie
regiment at the end of ten years, they would study even
more than they did now his comfort and welfare, and try
to render his service so happy as to induce the best melt
to remain. This was the principle of the bill he
ressmassatisd to their sir nips. It was to intro-
duce a regulation that -Iwo aoldlnt in the British
army should in future enlist only for ten years, and not
for life. This simple principle was all they were now
celled on to discuss. If they sanctioned the second matt-
ing, in committee they would have to consider if the time
was too short or too long, and also the special circumstancier
under which the engagement might be prolonged. He
should propose an amendmeet which had been suggested by
a noble earl (Ellenborough), who had pointed out tho ambi-
guity of the phrase "actual war," aerelating to the time when
the men might be detained in the set vice laeyoud the period
named. For the present, however, it would be better to
tontine themselves strictly to the principle whether they
should or should not limit the period of enlistment. Looking
at the question in this light, he had stated the consider-
ations on which the measure was founded. He was aware,
from what had been said on a former evening, that there
was an expectation that he would go further, and show from
experience what would be likely to bo the result. He re •
petted to say that he thought he could not attempt this
with any effect. The only period during which there was
limited enlistment was at 'the time of Mr. Wyndhun's act,
but it was so sheet, end the circumstances of the country
were so peculiar, that any attempt to argue from any ana-
logy with that act would be useless. He thought, however,
that the working of it was rather in favour of the ptin-
ciple. They must look to general considerations, and
reason from what they knew as to what would be
likely to be the effect of this measure. In his opinion,
the most important consideration was, that it would render
the service more popular. But them were others oleo. Ise
the first piece, in the present state of the public mind they
could not look to corporal punishment as the means of
maintaining discipline. (Hear, hear.) He was afraid, how-
ever, it would be premature to part with the power of using
that punishment in special circumstances. Still they mute
all feel that the practical use of it must be diminished to a
great extent. The noble duke on the cross benehts
(Wellington) had taken a step in that direction.
Under all circumstances, it was important that an
efficient substitute should be provided. The best
mode of getting rid of the bad soldier was to
make dismissal a punishment, and to let the soldier eel
the people think it not a reward but a punishment, and
then corporal punishment would be got rid of. In the police
there was no corporal punishment, because misconduct was
visited by dismissal, and it was felt to be a severe punish-
ment. The best soldier hell had the privilege of an early
discharge; now he (Earl Grey) wishee to see that reversed,
and that the bad soldier should be told that he:should not
have the advantage of serving in the army. Another
important *eject to be gained by this measure would
be the having in the country a numerous force of
trained soldiers that could be called on for its defence
on any emergency. All the continental states had
adopted the policy, more or less, of making the period
of service in their armies extremely short, and thus eansieg
a large portion of the population to go through the ranee
In Freesia nearly the whole of the regular army was com-
posed of men who served only three years and then left,
being liable to serve when called on in the militia. The
result was that if she was attacked at ray moment she could
depend on the services of a large number of men trained to
arms. It was impossible not to perceive how greatly this
added to her safety in the event of oggrealion. Nu doubt such
a policy was more necessary in continental nations than here.
Still be thought we had trusted too much for our safety to
our insular position. (Hear, hear.) There ought to ho
more efficient means to meet the danger of invasion by
securing the services of men trained to arms. In a certffia
degree this policy had already been adopted. Five years .
ago a bill was introduced by Lord Hardwg.e, when Seers-
tary at War, by which the discharged pensioners were en.
rolled in companies, and were called out for twelve days in
a year, and when they were required they were to bo called
out at a short notice. Under that bill, the number enrolled
was 13,000. He had been told b officers who had seen
them, that though they had left the army many years, it
was wonderful how speedily they regained their knowlortee,
and that in a few days they were quite capable of going
through their manceurres with precision and facility. Owing
to their age, of course it was impoeible for them to go
through the fatigue of marching heavily accoutred, but all tho
authorities be had consulted agreed that, in garrisons, and in
the defence of our arsenals, they would he as efficient as any
other troops. In case of war, these men might be called out,
placed in important posts, and thus relieve an equal number
of regular troops, who would be available for service in tee
field. Even if the anticipations of the opponents of this bee
turned out to be correct, and soldiers accepted their deciliter'
after ten yea' service, many of them at the age of 2A, there.'
i would be n the country a large body of men thoroughly
trained to arms and sell vigorous, ou whom they might call
in time of need. This was a consideration of much im-
portance, and when the noble marquis (Londonderry) dwelt
on the time that it took to make a perfect soldier, and that
if he Wit diacherged after ten ears, it was the time when
he was most efficient, he (Early Grey) was the more convinced
of the policy and wisdom of taking cure that the men in the
army should always be young, and of letting a large portion
of the population pass through the army, so that a
number of those who had gone through the service should
be ready when called on to serve spin at an
age when they were more capable c doing so.
Titus they would be relieved from the unjust odium of keep•
ing the soldier iu the army against his will, and secure tho
advantage of this reserved force. Much areas had been lee
by noble lords on the inconvenience of regiments loo:.,;
their heat men at the end of ten years. He would not deny
it. He was aware that no commanding officer liked to lose
young and efficient soldiers. Still, the interests of the army
required that they should give an opportunity to the soldier
to retire if he wished, besides the advantage of having a re-
served force. His own anticipations were that a small num-
ber of men would quit the arm, at the end of ten years.
Looking to the pat, he thought that the great majority of
the men, when they had got over the disagreeable task of
learning their profession, would remain. He wasjustified in
this opinion by the experienosof late years. The principle of
free discharges after sixteen years' service was first adopted
in 1829, when Lord Harding. was secretory at war. When
that was introduced there was as much apprehension among
commanding officers as to the loss of men as there was now.
It was, however, adopted, and the period was progressively
diminished to fifteen and fourteen years, and latterly, by Mr.
Sidney Herbert's good conduct warrant, to twelve.
(" Hear, hem," from the Duke of Richmond.) The noble
e cheered. He supposed his argument was, that the
good soldier stayed and the bad one went; but if the good
soldier remained, he (Earl Grey) had no wish that the bad
one should. He would read a passage from a me-
morandum which he had received, and which was
to the effect " that the system of free discharges
after fifteen, fourteen, and latterly twelve years' service, in-
stead of fulfilling the alarming anxiety which had been feat
as to the numbers that would accept it, had oily caused a
number to retire not exceeding fifty-five aanually, between
1830 and 184-4, being less than two to a regiment." In the
face of this, was it wile or prudent to expose the army to the
odium of keeping men as slaves for life / It proved to de-
monstration that there was not much anxiety on the part of
the soldier to leave. At present, oce of the arguments
against this measure was, that if the bad were encouraged to
leave, the good men would become bad ones, in order to go
too. If, however, they acted on the balder policy of not
confining men to the army for life, the great hulk of them
would remain. Many of them might, perhaps, leave for
more advantageous positions, and he hoped it would
be so. It was one of the great advantages of the French
army that men from its ranks were appointed to "gendar-
merie" end to the customs. For every man that was lost
by this means the army would be the gaffier from the en-
couragement it afforded to good man to enter. This 'aid
did not contain any clauses with regard to pensions, but
part of its principle was, that men who were climb:ergs-4
after ten Tears service were to be encouraged to mei
themselves in companies on the same plan as the pensioner,.
But whether enrolled or riot they would form an admirable
thneot
small. They
remenroiLdththem.sawnlvese
iananeiraml paannt'ioeusntwasas
body for the defence of the country. The inducement to
pensioners, mid
those men were always anrions to be enrolled and considered
it a disgrace if they were not. As an instance of it he would
mention that of those who were enrolled to go to Now Zea-
land, only three got drunk ; they were landed again, and it
was considered a severe punishment. It was intended, if the
men who were discharged enrolled themselves when they
attained the age of fifty years, they should be entitled to a
pension of sixpence a.day. Small as this was, it was aped
addition to their means. The benefit societies to which the
labouring claws subscribed seldom gave so much as 3a. 6sl,
a-week to a man of fifty. He was aware • • e pension
was cosaidered to be unduly small, and t • . of
many to this measure would be m. re 7 7, Ater(
meats were meter to the min, "1".. Td •y

beyond ten pars.. er to place their services at the
disposal of the country in some way or ether.
It could not be denied that the subject was one of coasidera-
Ca difficulty in regard to financial as well as other considera-
tions. For many yearn after the termination of the last
European war it was practically allowed to every man after
21 years' eerviee is the army to resin upon • pension of la.
par day. Practically this wan the rule acted upon up to the
year 1429, when it was found that the burden imposed upon
the country by that regulation was so serious, that some
change was absolutely eseessary. The law, in point of fact,
was, that no man should be allowed to retire unless upon the
certificate of his commanding officer that he was no longer
fit for service ; but the man having no inducement to remain
beyond the 21 years, en the pension of Is. • day was equal to
his psy,and being (which would be the cue if he had enlisted
at the age of 18) only 39 years of age, and probably in the
enjoyment of full health and strength, and so the difficulty
of obtaining the required certificate nes not great, it followed
that the number of men who obtained their dis-
charge in this way was very great. At the period
of which he spoke the whole strength of the ,1
army on service was 92.800 men, while the out-pensioners
udder
er no less
head .pan 8
pew5,;720, iormil the
ese rust_tpeto the country
gradually increased since the war until it amounted to
1,318,0001. It was found in practice that the number of
peusioaers inCreased during the peace-service in a greater
ratio than during the war, and the attention of the govern-
ment being directed to the subject, • minute was issued by
Sir 11. Harding*, requiring that every soldier applying for
Lis discharge, and claiming the pension after 21 years' ser-
vice, should undergo a strict examination before the board
at Chelsea; and the eertticate of discharge was only given
when it was found that he was unfit for further service.
This rule checked the progressive increase in the number of
pensioners to some ext.nt, but it was open to the objection
that it operated rather as an encouragement to the had than
the good soldier. The drunkard who hxd ruined his consti-
tution by drinking would be declared unfit for service, and
be discharged with the full pension, while the steady and
well-conducted man, who had kept himself in good health,
would be refused. This was looked upon as • serious in-
justice by the men themselves, end many canes had occurred
where the men, to entitle themselves to their discharge,
would maim or otherwise injure themselves. To put a
stop to this evil, another minute was issued, under
which no soldier who enlisted subsequent to the year
1833 was entitled to more than 6d. a day pension after 21
yearn' service. He was one of those who had always con-
sidered that that was too low • rate of pension. and in
1836 he had the honour of proposing to his late Majesty a
warrant, which was adopted, by which that amount
was increased by the goad conduct money, to which,
under the same warrant, he might, by steady and good con-
duct, be entitled at the period -if his discharge. This war
rant was still further improved by Mr. Sidney Herbert's
regulation of 1845, which allowed the soldier, in addition to
the tid, a day pension, 4d. • day as good-conduct looney,
should his conduct while in the army have entitled him to
the mine; and to still further premium if he served beyond
the 21 park It had been now suggested that it would be
well still further to increase the minimum rate of pension, so
as to make it up with the good-coaduct money to the former
;ate of la. a day, making the minimum rate of pension Bd.; and
that those soldiers who re-enlisted should be entitled to that
amount of pension after they arrived at 50 years of age.
To that proposition he had no objection then to offer—it had
been submitted to the government, and would be considered
by them with favour, and with the view of adopting it,
unless parliamentary and other insurmountable obstacles
intervened to prevent it. (Hear.) There were several
other minor points to which he had been anxious to advert ;
but, as they were comparatively immaterial, and at he had
already trespassed so long upon the attention of the boars,
he world conclude by moving that the bill be read a sewed
time. . .

The question having been put,
Viscount COMBEHMERE, who was very indistinctly
heard, opposed the bill, which he contended would tend
rather to impair than to increase the efficiency of
the army ; neither did he believe that it would
be effectual for its avowed object—that of inducing
a better clam of men to engage in that service.
He called upon the house to consider the danger of having a
large proportion of the army (and that the moat experienced
and efficient), while engaged oa active service, petaps in
the midst of a war. claiming their discharge under this bill,
the limited period for which they entered having possibly
t spired at the most inconvenient moment. He also adverted
to the great inconvenience which would arise from having
in the same oinks limited service men and unlimited
service men, and of the injustice which the measure would
cited upon the old soldiers, who would not be entitled to the
sane advantage as those who were enlisted under this bill.
He considered, too, that the rate of pension was by no
means sufficient as an inducement for men to re-enter the
airs ice, and oincluded by moving that the bill be read •
second time that day six months.
The Duke of WELLINGTON.—My lords, my noble
friend who has 'eat sat down has no occasion to make any
apology for addressing your lordships on this subject.
There is no officer in tho British army, who, from long and
distinguished service in all pacts of both Europe and Asia,
is more capable of anticipating the probable effects of this
nomestre than my noble friend. (Cheers.) I quite agree
mile my noble friend as to the importance of this measure
with regard to the state and efficiency of the army, and I
can aware him that if I considered ft calculated to deprive
the army of its old soldiers I should be the first to oppose
its adoption ; but having given the measure my best coon.
duration since its first propmition by the government, it is
my opinion that it will not lead to any diminution of the
number of old soldiers in the service. (Hear, hear.) My
lords, I insist on it that the old soldiers are absolutely neces-
sary to the very existence of the army. (Cheers.) I do
not mean to talk of the army as if on actual service at the
present moment. I ant aware how unpalatable such allu-
sions ore in the British parliament in time of peace, but I
refer to the army in time of peace. I say that you must have
the best and highest state of discipline in the army for the
ordinary service of this country, and I earnestly entreat your
lordships to attend to that point in considering this measure,
and not take any step which shall deprive this country of the
services of its old soldiers. (Hear, hear). My lords, the
foundation of your service is the constitution of your batta-
lions and companies: and here it is that the old soldiers set
the example of discipline, of subordination, and of good
coder. (Hear, hear). They are the men who, at
all times, pat themselves at the head of all that
is good, and it is on them you must rely for the
most important services you require even in time of peace.
I meet say that although this country has been under poli-
tical treaties of peace for the last thirty years or more, I
hays had to take under my consideration military operations
of the greatest extent an I importance, not only in the Medi-
terranean, but in the East Indies, in Africa, and all over
Asia. The army has carried all these operations to •
successful termination ; but, my lords, if you had not had
the highest discipline and the best troops in the world those
services could not have been performed. (Cheers.) Look
at the operations in China. Troops had then to be
brot.ght together from Australia and from various
other places, and were employed on rivers, on
creeks, against fortresses and islands, and in concert
with her Majesty's ships of war. How was all that done ?
By the discipline of your army, and, above all, by the
bravery of your old soldiers. (Loud cheers.) Look also at
recent operations In the East Indies under my noble friend
Lord Harding*, which never could have been effected but
forthe steadiness of the old soldiers. Look at the estimation
in which the Emperor Napoleon held his soldiers, and
indeed the manner in which they are valued all over the
world. (Hear, hear.) I hope and trust that nothing may
deprive us of the services of these old and experienced men,
and thus expose us to disgrace and loss whenever we come
actively to employ our army. My lords, my opinion is, that
the measure befere us is not mkulated to have this effect.
My opinion is, that considering all the circumstances which
acoompany it, the advantages which the soldier enjoys
already, and the others which it provides, the measure is not
likely to be attended with the effect of depriving the service
of its old soldiers. (Hear, hear.) I beg to remind your
lordships that there always has been in the service of this
country • power of enlistment for either limited or unlimited
service. At least, ever since the failure of an experiment
similar to this in 1806, there his been in our service • pewer
of this description, and therefore thepropenition now before
your lordships is not altogether new in the service. At the
acme time I must observe that in point of feet all the men at
=in the army have been enlisted on terms of unlimited
Tir able earl who so ably introduced the measure
to per lesileite notice has stated that the consequence of
ti yam of limited service will be that • superior
of ma will be induced to enlist. I sincerely
...."."-egillt MEV be the result, but I very much doubt it.
W relleen.) Bet this I believe, that tandsr the ad-
E la Wimp soldier, of marks for good conduct,
at different periods of five, tan, and
etardmig, ilei=and also the accumulation of pennon,
time) will be rho of men at the end of ten years ; I think
the fir idil ellierellsa (Hear, hear.) I have no objection
dtea to by Or ambient of limited enlistment, and I beg
of year ' to adopt this measure on the grounds that
it will rake no illibreart as to the number of old soldiers in
the army. It is quite clear that the soldier who shall re-
outlet at the red of ten years, being • well-conducted
man, will bays many advantages. He will have fourpesce
• day as the accumulation of his good conduct money, and
his pension of sixpence, making tenpence. But it has been
suggested to make the pension eightpence, and this will give
the man a pension of a shilling a day, which was the amount
of pension settled in 1806, at the expiration of the periods of
seven, six, and five years. Besides, the soldier has the chance,
if a well behaved man, of receiving • bounty of 51. at the end
of his service, while the warrants Mined by government hold
out every adeentege to non-commkeioned officers,
as well as good conduct allowanese, after having served
that period of years. All these rewards becoming known,
I conclude the men will become so inured to
those habits and qualities which are characteristic
of the British soldier, and ea attached to a profession in
which they enjoy each comforts, and advantages not enjoyed
by men of the same class is other walks of life, as easily to
be induced to re-enlist, and that is all I regain, all I desire,
namely, that we may have the airier el the men dun
the whole period they are canal& of sanitte. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord spoke of emameemilln&dleirs. I do not
argue for the sake of the commemlbeMeses, but I ask for
. the sake of the public service that you de not risk the loss of
your old soldiers ; and I give you we masons for supposing
that they will not be lust by this 1111. It is perfectly true
that some inconvenience was felt Ain the arrangement of
1806, at the termination of the Stet period in 1813.
Sonic initcarsolow was felt siersquenos of men
then getting their i "coo semi a bounty to receive.
It is vas tbli sr,- --•t wee . bat, --.• lords, it
__ .

.a diseharge
snme inonoYenierwe my , •
wee got the bettor o 4 es other isinnw...enteee have been, sod
a. inearrenieuees of that kind will always be, in the British
army. (Chows). The great thing le to haws the servkes of
good men, and It you get that, I costae that I don't an
much fot • little insouyealenea. EOM, hear). As to what
my noble Mend hes elated f the expense and isms-

venison* of bringing home men teem distant colonies, the
government is perfectly aware of it, but such inoonveniences
most be provided for. If this moisture is agreed to, a vast
number at peewee think that it will vastly improve the ser-
vice. Hach be the result, lam sure I shall be veryhappy.
(A laugh). All I can say is, that if parliament pass it,
I will do my best to any it into execution (loud cheers);
and being convinced that it may be adopted without risk of
losing the services of our old soldiers, and being certain that
the wish of the government, as well as my own, is to retain
three services, I earnestly recommend to your lordships to
let this measure per. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl is en-
trusted with another measure respecting the pensioners I
have no objection to their employment, but I beg to guard
your lordships against believing that pensioners are at all to
be compared to the veterans of whom we have been talking.
(Hear, hear.) Thom veterans are the leaders of their
regiments, the mainstay of the service. (Hear, hear.)
Pensioners may be very good men, but they are not
the men of whom I have been talking, who are the
heart and soul, the life and courage of the regiment.
My conviction is, that such men will not be lost by the ope-
ration of this bill, but that they will be induced to re-enlist.
My lords, I entirely agree with the noble ours observations
respecting military punishments, and I sincerely hope that
circumstances may enable us to diminish corporal punish-
ment until at last it be entirely superseded. (Hear, hear.)
The mutiny bill; lately posited, contains a provision calcu-
lated to diminish that punishment, namely, one enabling
the Olken to commute it for another description of punish-
ment. Use will be made of these powers, and I hope the
result will be a gradual diminution, until an end is put en-
tirely to a system which is very disagreeable to the
feeling of this country. (Hear, hear.) My opi- 1
nion u, however, that this punishment, or any other 1
punishment. has nothing to say, nothing to do, with the 1
question of limited or unlimited enlistment, or with the
character of the army. The regularities of discipline, its
necesstry severities, the hardships of the men in distant and
colonial service, are what affect the army, but this or that
description of punishment has little or no effect. What I
wish tone. in the army, as in other classes of society, is,
good conduct produced, not by punishment, but by good
treatment and justice. (Hear, hear.) I believe that these
effects can be produced. I believe that the system of educa-
tion adopted by government will have a great effect in pro-
ducing this good conduct, and in rendering the soldier
aware of those benefits of his position which he en
joys over the mime clue of men in other con-
ditions of life. All these circumstance, tend to
convince me that this measure will not have the
effect apprehended by my noble friend ; and therefore, my
lords, I again entreat your lordship* to pus the bill. (Hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND believed that the intention of
government in pro • this measure was to ameliorate the
condition of the dier, but he very much doubted whether
it would be attended with that result. He denied that
the present system of enlistment was slavery for life; wi'h
two good-conduct marks, the soldier might now obtain his
discharge at the end of twelve years. Though the noble
duke had recommended their lordships to support this mea-
sure, he had only done so in the belief that it would not de-
mice the army of the old soldiers, in other words, that the
limited enlistment would have no effect.

Lord STRAFFORD next addressed the hove at consider.
able length but he could not be heard in the gallery. He I
was understood to support the second reading of the bill.
The Hari of ROSS E expressed his belief that this measure
would not have the effeet of retaining the old soldiers in the
service, and on that ground he should oppose it. His re-
marks applied principally to the cavalry. After the strong
sad impressive warnings that hod been given to their lord-
ships, he hoped they would not consent to the adoption of
the measure

The Duke of CLEVELAND opposed the bill. He be-
lieved that the army never was in a more efficient stare ; and
he had been surprised to hear from the noble earl (Earl
Grey) opposite that such a change as the one now proposed
was needful.

Vr-ciIiTANLEY felt that as he did not belong to the
service, it was almost presumption on his pert to venture to
offer a few observations upon the bill now under considera-
tion, especially as the measure had the support of his noble
friend the gallant duke at present at the heal of the army.
The noble and gallant duke had intimated his intentioa to
vote for the second reading of the bill, and he (Lord Stan-
ley) well knew the effect such an announcement must have
upon the house. Still he must remind their lordships that
the noble and gallant duke had said that this was a measure
of doubtful utility, and of no inconsiderable hazard, (Hear,
hear.) He (Lord Stanley) thought it would fail to realise
the expectations which the noble earl opposite (Earl Grey)
anticipated, and that it risked unnecessarily and unwisely
that state of things by which had been brought together the
best and most efficient army which the world could show at
the present moment. In short, the measure ran the
risk of doing evil without holding out any reason-
able prospect of attaining those advantages which
had been pointed at by the noble earl in his
to-night. If the at was unobjectionable; if
speech
b was right, wise, or judicious ; if it was
desirable to try the experiment of limited enlistment, there
was the means already of making it. The precedent far
this bill was the measure introduced by Mr Wyndham in
1806, • measure which the noble duke at the table (the
Duke of Wellington) had declared to be a failure. And
when that menus) was discussed, objections were taken,
repeatedly urged and never answered, that admitting the
experiment of limited enlistment to be reasonable, the
crown had already:full power by its own authority and
prerogative to make the experiment without seeking the
previous sanction of parliament. (Hear, hear.) The pre-
seat, therefore, was not an enabling but • restraining bill,
by which the prerogative of the crown would be restricted.
The crown had now the prerogative t. declare the term of
enlistment end the mode in which the army should be
recruited, and it was unwise and hazardous thus to interfere
with the executive goverment by declaring by act of parlia-
ment that hereafter men should not cilise except for
limited service. But what were the objects which the noble
earl (Earl Grey) expected to gain by this measure? The
noble earl said it would make the service in the army more
popular, and would introduce a better class of men into the
service, and the uoble earl seemed to consider that it was
not unimportant to have a large portion of the population
trained to arms, ready to assist in time of need. Now the
first hour and a half of the noble earl s speech had been
occupied in statements exceedingly interesting and im-
portant, but still they had not the smallest reference to any
one of the provisions of the bill now ender consideration
—they did not contain the shadow of an argument bearing
upon the measure. On the contrary, their tendency went
to show that in consequence of the improvements introduced
for the comforts and condition of the soldier, the bill was
wholly unnecessary. Could any man, conversant with the
history of the country, hazard a comparison between the
condition of the army in 1806, when Mr. Wyndham
introduced his bill, and the army of the year 1847 ? In
God's name let improvements go on, reduce corporal
punishments—improve the system of recruiting—establish
regimental schools and form regimental libraries—upon
these questions all were agreed ; but these were not now the
subjects for consideration. The question the house had now
to consider was, whether or not the enlistment of men for a
limited period of service would render the *urice in the
army more popular than it was at present? When Mr.
Wyndhiun's bill of 1806 was brought forward, this country
was in the midst of • formidable, bloody, and protracted
war. Recruits sufficient to supply the vacancies created in
warfare could not be obtained, and as a last resource enlist-
ment for • limited period was adopted. But were there any
such difficulties now? The noble earl opposite (Earl Grey)
said that service in the army was unpopular. Where was
the proof of its unpopularity? He (Lord Stanley) knew
that in the course of last year 37,000 recruits had been en-
listed and passed, and that between 12,000 and 13,000 more
had enlisted, but were rejected, Was this a proof of the
unpopularity of the service? (Hear, hear.) It the govern-
ment thought it deakable again to try the experiment of limited
I enlistment, if the noble duke at the head of the army thought
it safe that the experiment should be again made, on God's
name let them do so by an order from the Horse Guards,
without calling upon parliament to interfere in matters
which ought properly to be left upon the responsibility of the
executive government. But the noble earl opposite (Earl
Grey) thought that this measure would make the army po-
pular, and that a better clam of men would in consequence
enter the service. He (Lord Stanley) doubted it. The
noble duke (Wellington), in that pithy manner in which he
always spoke, said he should be very glad to see that this
measure brought • better class of men into the service, but
he very much doubted whether such would be the case, and
with the noble duke he (lead Steal.") concurred in that
r:
Had this country not at the present moment as
well-conducted, orderle, and disciplined an army as any na-
tion in the world. Was it sought to improve the army
by bringing into its ranks a better educated elms ?
In the first plea he doubted whether they would get them,
and fa the next he still more doubted whether, if educated
area smut in, they would makebetter soldiers. The noble earl
mid it would be of great advantage to have the population of
this country trained to arms. This was, however, a question
open to grave argument and serious consideration ; and
though he concurred in the plan adopted by his noble and
gallant friend, Viscount Hsrdinge, with respect to the em-
bodiment of the pensioners he doubted the wisdom of that
suggested by the noble earl. The noble earl had in his
apnea told the existing army that the service was one of
slavery for life ; was that language fitting a member of the
government to use ? (Hear, hear.) Was it not language
calculated injuriously to affect the discipline of the service
(Hear, hear.) In short, was not this • measure founded
upon a precedent which the highest authority (the
Duke of Wellington) had declared to be a signal failure ?
With regard to deeertion ; from whence did it proceed ? Did
it arise from length of service ? Was it meet frequent
among the old soldiers ? or was it most 0301131011 among the
recruits of a single year ? He held in his head a return
which stated that the total number of desertions in the
army in one year (1840) was 1,757, and of these 1,177 were
recruits under the first year who were sick of the laborious task
of learning their profession' 170 were under two years ; 109
trader three years ; and 212 were soldiers of fire years stand-
ing. What ground was there for supposing that desertion
would be checked by this measure ? Let him call the atten-
tion of their lordships to the duties and distribution of the
army, which now, in a time of peace, was sub-
ect to incessant labour and privation, tad more than
half of it wasabroad. It hai been the mai/s wish sf his noble
friend (tlie Duke of Wellington), and of recessive adminis-
trations, so to form the establishment of the army that every
soldier should be ten years abroad and five years at home,
bet that proportion had not been obtained. Foe twelve years
out of ammo, they were abroad in every variety of climate.
Supposing this term of enlistment to be in existence ; after
nine years of service, soldier wee sent to Canada, and when
the period of his discharge arrived, circumstances occurred,
not irer,lint which made it necessary that it should be re-
, fused him, he became dissatisfied, and the probability was
r that such a man, at the most valuable period of his
service, quitted it by desertion. The noble earl said
that they ought to be detained a year beyond
their time:during peace, and two years during war. What

was war ? The operations on the river Plate were net war
..—or the oceureenees in New Zealand were not war; yet
any abstraction from the number, of the army would have
caused inconvenience there. The operations in China were
not war; only an armed negociatioa, according to noble
lords opposite. The noble earl profited to be very much
obliged to his noble friend (the Earl of of EUenborough) for
suggesting an amendment on this point, and he intended to
substitute the word " emergency" for that of " war." He
(Lord Stanley) did not think that this mended the matter.
How was the soldier to know that his commanding °deer
was justified in refusing him his discharge, on account of an
" emergency." There might be peace, but war might be on
the point of breaking out, and it might be desirable to
have an efficient body of men ready, and yet no measures
were to be taken to excite suspicion. Well! a tenth of the
efficient men of a regiment demand their discharge, and they
were refused ; the commanding officer would then be obliged
to state that there was as emergency. The soldier might
dispute that there was any emergency, end might bring his
officer before a court of law, on the ground that he was
unjustly depriving him of his discharge, and the court
would have to decide whether there was such an " emer-
gency" or not, as warranted his officer iu detaining him.
The noble earl in persuading their lordships to accept this
bill, said that it would induce commanding officer, to con-
sult the comforts of the men more. He (Lord Stanley)
should he ashamed to think that any commanding officer
was insensible to the comforts of the men serving under him.
(Hear, hear.) He believed that all the improvement
which had taken place, had been wrung from successive
administrations by the repeated demands of commanding
officers. (Hear, hear.) What inducements to the soldier
had the commanding officer in his power? None, except
those of favour, or relaxation of discipline. (Hear, hear.)
He ought to apologise to their lordships for having, as a
civilian, made so many observations on such a subject. He
looked to the probable consequences of this measure, and the
experience of the pest, in which a bill fur limited enlistment,
which was brought in 1806 and was abandoned in 1808, satis-
fied him that great risk was incurred yet. The noble earl's
argument as to the improved comforts of the sol-
dier, showed that this measure was unnecessary,
and, above all, if the experiment was to be tried,
let it rest with the executive government and be
done by constitutional means; but let not parliament be
forced into an interference with the question, and
be charged with a responsibility which did not belong
to them ; end, es the noble earl would have
an opportunity of trying the experiment whether the bill
was rejected or not he could not complain that his views
would be put in a disadvantageous position, and he called
on the house, notwithstanding the speech and the vote of
his noble friend (the Duke of Wellington), to let the
responsibility of the measure rest on tho advisers of the
crown, and to refuse to meet to the second reading of the
bill. (Cheery.)

The Earl of HARDWICKE said thin bill applied equally
to marines u to the army, for their enlistment was con-
ducted on the same principle. He begged to call their
lordships attention to its effect on tbit branch of the
service, and declared that limited enlistment would be most
detrimental to the marines.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (who was very indis-
tinctly heard indeed) said, that in bringing forward this
measure the government bad not done so under the
impression that anything is the eircumstancts of the present
time justified them in incurring any risk connected with the
military branches of this country. Pacific as was the policy
of the present government, and successful as had the late
government beea in maintaining pacific relations with
Europe, they were not the less persuaded that they were in
circumstances, and at a time, which reiuired that the cha-
racter of our defences should be examined into, and that
there was no justifiable reason for reducing the military
power, but rather for adding to their strecgth. He thought
this measure, by popularising the army, and by enlarging
the field out of which it was recruited, rendered it a more
valuable and efficient support to the country. If he had
thought otherwise, he•would have withdrawn his support
from it. Nay, he would go further, and say, that if high
authorities, if the noble duke at the head of the army
had, either in that house fir out of it, held the lan-
guage which bad been put into Lis mouth by the
' noble lord he should have hesitated at agreeing to the mea-
sure, and probably have withheld his support from it. But
not only had no such opinion been expressed by the noble
duke, but experience was in its favour. Under the warrant
of 1R39, which gave opportunities and facilities for discharge,
no difference was made, and there was an average of only
2.5 free discharges annually; nor had he any apprehension
that the number would be increased. He had had an op-
portunity of consulting some officers who had returned from
Canada, and they stated that a large portion of the army
there were entitled to their discharge, and not one of them
had deserted, while all the caws of desertion were those of
men who had no hope of being discharged.

Lord BROUGHAM concurred entirely with, and went
even further than his noble friend behind him (Lord
Stanley), in the alarm he had expreseed as to the conse-
quences of this measure. If he realy felt that his opinions
in this respect were diametrically opposed to those of the
illustrious duke (Wellington), if he could for a moment be-
lieve that this bill was sanctioned by the high authority—
the highest authority in the country upon military matter.
—of bin noble friend, he should feel not only great diffidence,
but absolute shame, in [presuming to set up his own views
upon the subject. But this bill woo none of the noble duke's
—it had not been recommended by the comeose,-- •

chief—on the contrary, the ■oblo' duke was the last
person in England who would have volunteered such
a recommendation. (Hear, hear.) And if any man,
knowing the great and wise caution of the noble duke, his
habitual circumspection, no large and so safe for his party
and his country, if any man knowing thin could have for a
moment doubted whether it were possible for t►e noble duke
to recommend such a measure, with its necessary and all but
fatal consequences, let that man look to the manner in which
the noble duke had given his support, his economic—
he would not call it parsimonious or stingy—but his mode-
rate, his guarded support, to the measure, accompanied by
reasons which, though not absolutely against the measure,
told nothing in its favour, and by warnings evidently
meant to maintain his own consistency, to protect his own
character, and at the same time to deter the government from
the course in which they had embarked; and though in
effect he had told them that if they were determined to
meddle and change he must give them his vote, he had, at
the same time, advised them to leave the army alone. All
experience was against limited enlistment; and it was his
firm conviction, that had Mr. Wyndham lived to see
the result of his measure, he would have changed his
opinion; and it was well known that nothing had so
much endangered the ministry of which Mr. Wyndhant
was a member during the first six months of its existence,
as that measure for limiting the period of enlistment. But
it was said the object of the government in the present bill
was to popularise the army. If that object was to be
achieved by altering the period of enlistment, it might be
done without this bill. As the law stood, the crown had the
power of enlisting men for seven, fourteen, or any other
term. The commander-in-chief might now, if he pleased,
make an order reversing Lord Hill's order, which abolished
limited enlistment, and forbid any enlistment in
future except for limited service. (Hear, hear.) But
he (Lord Brougham) denied that experience was
in favour of limited enlistment, or that th►t was
the means of popularising the army, while, on the other
hand, he believed that it would, by inducing discontent in
the mind of the soldier, who had been told that night by
the noble lord that his life was a state of slavery, er.danger
the efficiency of the service. All that had been said in that
house would be discussed In every canteen in the kingdom
and in the colonies—in every regiment, European or sepoy,
in India; all would know that it was the opinion of the house
of lords that the soldier was hardly treated, and that the pen-
sion allowed was too small. Objecting, as he did, to this
measure, as restraining the power of the crown in
dealing with the enlistment of the soldier, and ss
placing the crown cad the army in an invidious, not to
say a perilous position in regard to each other, believing
that the bill would be altogether fruitier, unless for mis-
chief, he should resist it. (Hear, bear.)

Earl GREY observed, that what the noble and learned
lord had arid in regard to Mr. Wyndham's bill was wholly
romance. The noble and learned lord had said " leave the
army alone, your interference will only impairits efficiency ;"
but the. was the argument which had been used against ell
the various improvements which had been introduced rince the
war. There was one point on which he had hoped the noble and
learned lord would by accident have been right in the gene-
ral tissue of error of which his speech consisted, and that was
the point of law. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) But the noble
and learned lord had asserted that the government had no
right to do what they were about to do by act of parlia-
ment, but should have done it by the exercise of the royal
prerogative. That charge came strangely from the noble
and learned lord who oa a former evening had found
fault with an order in council which was autho-
rised by act of parliament. He could inform
the noble and learned lord that in time of peace the crown
no means of enlisting troops exoept by act of par-
liament, and if this bill did not pass, government would not
have power to enlist for ten years' service. (Hear, heat.)
There was one other point on which he . (Earl Grey) had
been misrepresented, aad on which he wished to otter some
explanation to the house. He had been licensed of repre-
senting the condition of the British soldier as one of
slavery. He had said ne such thing. His argu-
ment had been, that practically men were not enlisted
for life at present, that they could leave at the end
of twelve years, and that, therefore, it wee unwise to keep
up a system of enlistment which appeared to retain them for
life. At that hour of the night he should net detain the
house by any further obeervations.
After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM in explanation,
the house divided.

For th. second reading —Coot este—Present 64
Proxies 44-108
Nos-contents—Present 63
Proxies 41— 94

Majority l4
Their lordships adjourned at hall-past 12 o'clock

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, Aram 28.
The Speaker took the ehair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BURNES&

.....
BEOOND READlNo97loncachire, Menke, and North Wale.
Dralnane and Inolotare Company's Incorporation; Limerick Docks
and Harbour Ma.

REFOlTT73.—Ayrshire and Gelb:may Railway (Smlthnown to Dal-
mellington) ; Colchester, Pour Valley, Sudbury, and Halatead Rail-
way Hams to the Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway Com-
piny); Wolverhampton Bata; Hart:noel West Horton/ and Dock
(Dock Wes)

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
SECOND READWCS.—Inntled Property lasproverneent (Irebind),
Transference of Lends (Soitland), Heritable Securities for Debt (Scot-
land) Ma
COMMlTTEES.—Regietertng Births, kn. (Scotland), Marriage
(Scotland). Service of Detre (Scotland) Bills.
TRIBE) BEADlNG.—Lunatic Asylum. BBL

WESTMINSTER AND LAMBETH BRIDGE BILL.
On Ceptain Ptemiunith proposing the second reading of
this bill,
Sir R. H. INGLIS took the opportunity of presenting to
the house a petition from the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury,
praying that the house would not consent to pass this bill,
which, he complained, would have the effect of giving abso-
lute and compulsory powers to the sole promoter of the
bill, Sir Samuel Brown, to deprive persons of their property
at either side of the bridge, for a consideration, and to con-
struct a suspension bridge. It also stated that Sir Samuel
Brown had, if he pleased, sufficient means to construct such
a bridge without the powers of an act of parliament to assist
him. Ile would remind the house that, in reference to the inex-
pediency of such a measure, there were great engineer-
ing difficulties to be encountered, when they considered that
it was to be a suspension bridge. He never would give his
sanction to the construction of a suspension bridge ; tor their
experience of latter years ought to have taught them that
that ahoy. all other things was one which they ought to dis-
countenance. The right hon. baronet concluded by moving
that the bill be read that day six months.
Sir H. DE L. EVANS said that the arcumessta brought
forward by the right hon. baronet against the bill were argu-
ments which were only fit for the consideration of a com-
mittee up stairs, and were no reasons why the house should
refuse to read the bill a second time.
Mr. NICHOLL said that he believed that the promo-
ter of the bill was one of a firm who possessed iron works
in Newtridge, Glamerganshire, and sought for this bill to
enable him to dispose of their chain cables.
The house divided.—For the second reading 26
Against it
The bill was accordingly thrown out.
COMPLAINT AGAINST A MAGISTRATE.
Mr. WAK LEY presented, according to notice, a petition
from Mary Young, of Fincham, Norfolk, complaining of the
conduct of • magistrate. He wished to ask the Secre-
tary for the Home Department whether he had made any +n-
guinea into the matter, and whether any compensation
would be afforded to the parties complaining?
Mr. R. HO UGSON having presented a petition from the
magistrate in question, praying for inquiry into the facts al-
leged in the petition,
Sir G. GREY said it was the first time the case had been
brought under his notice, and he would cause an inquiry to
be made into the facts stated.

Mr. WAKLEY said he had sent the magistrate, whose
conduct was complained of, a copy of the petition three
weeks ago.
REGISTRATION OP BIRTHS, &e., AND MAR-
RIAGES, &c. (S,OTLAND) BILLS.
Sir A L. HAY wished to ask the Lord Advocate
whether he intended to alter or omit the 12th clause in the
I Registration. &c. (Scotland), Bill ; and whether he contem-
plated proposing an and, if so, what, alterations in the
Scotch Marriage Bill?
The LORD ADVOCATE, in answer to the question of
his hon. and gallant friend, begged to say that it was not his
intention to insist on the 12th clause in the Registration
Bill. (Hear, hear.) The grounds upon which it was intro-
duced had been very much misrepresented, and he doubted
whether the best interests of the schoolmasters had been
consulted in the opposition made to it. He should have
another opportunity of explaining himself ful'y on this sub-
ject, with reference to certain returns to be laid before the
I house. At present he should merely say that he proposed
to withdraw the clause. With respect to the Marriage Bill,
he had to state that he retained the views on which the bill
had been framed; namely, that the only modes of contract-
ing marriage should be by solemnisation in presence of a
clergyman, or by registration the registration in the last
case being essential to the marriage and forming the mar-
riage; and in the former cue, the registration, though not
essential, being enforced by penalties. The object of the
bill bad been in some instances misunderstood, and in others
misrepresented ; but the amendments which he proposed to
introduce would, he trusted, be so clear as to obviate any
possibility of misconstruction. With reference to objections
which had been taken in some quarters to the measure, he
proposed to carry it farther than he would otherwise
have ventured. Though it did introduce great re-
strictions upon the law of marriage, allowing mar-
riage
only in one or other of two ways, and in both in.
stances securing the most direct and irrefragable evidence of
marriage, he had been very strangely charged with intro-
ducing greater laxity into the mode of constituting that re-
lation. He meant therefore to prevent the contraction of
marriage by registration unless both or one at least of the
contracting parties had been resident in the district in which
the marriage was to be registered for a certain number of
days, acd also unless notice had been given to the registrar,
by which a more effectual publication of the parties' inten-
tion to marry might be made then could now be made by
the proclamation of banns. He did not propose to affect by
nullity any marriage which was either contracted by solem-
nisation before a clergyman or by registration, but he should
make otherwise what he trusted would be effectual provision
against the contraction of marriage, unless there had been
previous residence and previous publication. He would not
interfere with the proclamation of banns, but he would give
a more effectual alternative, such as he presumed could not
I be objected to by those who wished some previous publics.
*ion, or who knew st the same time that the proclamation
of banns gave in reality none. If he made it
lees likely that parties should marry by registra-
tion than before a clergyman, he should not think
that an objection to the measure. He would gain at the
same time, an object of great importance—that of putting
an effectual stop to Gretna-green marriages. He had only
to add at present, that he should propose severe penalties
against any one who should personate the character of a
clergyman ; and that courts was the more just and expedient
with reference to the changes he proposed. The bill would
be found, he trusted, fully to explain its previsions, and he
hoped he might be allowed, without interrupting the course
of business which his noble friend had prescribed for the
evening, to go into committee for the purpose of making
pro forma the amendments he had alluded to, so as to let
the bill gn down to Scotland before the 30th of this
month. (Hear, hear.)
In answer to a question from Sir R. H. Nome,
The LORD ADVOCATE said he should press forward
both bills with all convenient despatch.
Sir G. CLERK was understood to withdraw his notice
with reference to the omission of the 12th clause in the re-
gistration bill.
Both bills subsequently went through cornmitteepreforma,
were reported, and ordered to be re-committed.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.
In answer to a question from Mr. FORBES,
Mr. T. M. GIBSON said a bill would shortly be intro-
dusted on the subject of agricultural statistics.
COUNTY COURTS ACT.
Mr. BOUVERIE wished to ask the Attorney-General a
question with reference to the County Courts Act. It ap-
peared that by one of the clauses in the act, litigant parties
and their wives might give evidence under certain dr-
cuniatances in the cause, and it affirmed that a judge of one
of these courts had recently decided that the parties
might give evidence in their own cases, but only when called
on to do so by their opponents. He wished to know whe-
ther this was the proper construction of the clause ?
The ATTORNEY GENERAL, who was indistinctly
heard, was understood to say, that, as bo read the clause, it
appeared that the plaintiff might call the defendant to prove
his cue, end vice versa ; or that the li • igant parties and
their wives might examine themselves in support of their
own calm_

PRISONS BILL, AND CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS
BILL.

Sir G. GREY said he did not intend to propose that the
house should go into committee on these bills, if the other
business extended beyond 9 o'eloek, and he would then post-
pone them until Friday
EMIGRANTS TO THE UNITED STATES.

Lord O. RENTINCK wished to draw the attention of the
noble lord the first minister of the crown to a bill which had
recently become law in the states of New York and Massa-
chusseth., by which the captain of a ship containing emigrants
was obliged to enter into a bond to the amount of 300 dol-
lars, and the shipper to the extent of 1,000 dollars that no
emigrants should become chargeable as paupers for 10 years.
I No doubt the object of this law was to drive all the paupers
Ito Canada and Newfoundland ; and he begged to ask the
noble lord whether he knew of such an act having passed,
and, if so, whether any provision had been made for suck
'emigrants, to prevent their being subject to privation ?
Lord J. RUSSELL had not heard of the paring of the
bill to which his noble friend referred, but he was aware
that such bill had been under consideration, and he under-
stood the shipping interests in America bad been greatly
opposed to it lie had applied to the American mt•
nist,r in this country, who stated that he did not think
emigrants would be refused admission into New York or
Boron, and that they would be subject to the laws which
had hitherto applied to them. Be (Lord J. Russell) had no
doubt that the tendency of such a measure would be to in-
Meese the emigration of paupers to Canada; and the
government had made provision for greater aid than had
been given in any former year, in a votx for taking care of
emigrants in hospitals, and forwarding them on, but it
might be found necessary to propose some further measure
en the subject.