The Express.
London, England, 1851-05-24 00:00:00

Sr 0. GREY, Ia answer to the statement which lei imillishis find some argument. for proposing what be had!.
km Blade regarding the attendance of a guard of pollee me ohm; bat it was obviously impossible to declare that to be
tragaa honear upon the bishops, and which statement lad Mw, which every lowyer denied to be the case. (Hear, !I
Seestalso made by the boo. and learned member for Enwh- !hear) The noble lord had spoken of matters which were I
killer, said that he was uuw in the position by merely spiritual; but they had been told that the whole :
the authority of the Lord Lieutenant to give the most ex- brief WA. in every part of it a spiritual thing ; and there-
plicit contnuliction to that statement. Ile had received a fore this was cooly en indirect mode of askiug the house to
report from the head of the local constabulary of Ireland, declare• that be taw which every lawyer affirmed was not.
and the truth of the mutter was that the police was iu- (Cheers.)
Creased to the number of -Si), and sent to the place where Sir WW. BARIION thought the speech of the noble
the bishops met on the Lkh of August, simply because a lord (Lord J. Russell) proved that the government had
large assemblage of people from the country was amid- shown themselves exceedingly imprudent in adopting any
patcd, and the police were there to prevent any breach of portion of the him. and learned member for Midhurst's
the peace, as was must in large assemblages of the people, ' proposals whatever. If what they wished to enact were
and for no other purpose. (Hear.) He hoped that they law, why did they seek to legislate upon the subject ? The
would hear no more of this accusation of having given their very fact of their doing so proved either that they wished
Sanction to an illegal assembly. (Hear, hear.) Ito give new force and new power to the existing law of•the
Mr. WHITESIDE maintained that the appearance of land, or that they were doubtful whether it had not, as it
coeconnott sanction had been given to the Synod of were, been repealed by antiquity and disuse. He won-
Thurles. A regular procession hail taken place on the dared, after the declarations of the noble lord, he could in
Occasion, the prelates had appeared in their full collet:ilea' honour, in justice, and in common honesty, refuse his
dress, and had made quite a public display in entering the assent to the amendment (lieu, hear.) The policy of
cathedral. From the circumstances of the police having government had already produced one fruit, namely, a pro-
lined the road, and the magistrates and other authorities posal for the formation of a new catholic as-
having been there, when nu apprehension existed of any soeuition, and they surely could not forget the ,
disturbance of the peace, the catholics had undoubtedly been old society which bore that name. (Hear, hear.)
led to believe that the attendance of these parties was fur Ile understood that eminent prelate, the Archbishop of
the purpose of giving the proceedings their sanction. This, I New Yerk, recently appointed cardinal, was now in the
however, had not been the only inoonce in which the sane. w house, and was a witness of the different manner in which
Lion of government had, in Ireland, been given to the use this question was treated by the British legislature. (Hear,
of titles. (lkar, hear.) I hear.) It was idle to talk of this being an invasion of the
Mr. ROEBUCK, in reply to what had been said by the royal prerogative, or an insult to the nation. Why should
right hon. baronet (Sir G. (Jrey), asked if the Lord-Lien. the nation be insulted, after petitions had been presented
tenant had not given precedence to these Irish bishops ? fur years praying for Hornet' catholic bishops in this
Sir G. GREY said the hon. manlier (Mr. Roebuck) had country—not by Roman catholics only but by others who
now changed his ground, and had charged the government were anxious for the independence ut that b sty in this
with giving precedence to Roman catholic bishops. it was country. It was well known that vicar-apostolic were
quite true that they had given this precedence, but the completely at the mercy of the Pope, bishops would be
precedence had out originally Lean given by the present much more independent. But it was said by the noble lord
government. 'l'he hon. member could out show him an act that this was part of a great eouspiracy against the liberties
of parliament which could prevent the government from of Europe. Did he mean to assert that the Roman
ft 1199( a catholic archbishop " your grace," and a bishop cotholies of this country were involved in any such con-
"my lord," and, although he (Mr. Roebuck). said that the slime]? Ilad they not, for the last fifty years, supported
government hod exceeded their duty in giving precedence the extension of liberty to all classes, including dissenter,
to the Roman catholic tuat totally dif. and all who had laboured unit any civil or religious dio:
ferent thing from what he hail charged them with pre. ability? If the noble herd meant to assert that the Roman
oicously, vit. a direct violation of the law. catholic' of this country had been guilty of any such con-
Sir E. IliESlfiElt had been advised by his hon. friend spiracy, he would tell hint ei his face it was u base false-
the member for Buckinghamshire and others to withdraw hood—it had uo foundation. (Loud cries of " Order,
his amendment ; hut, after all the arguments he hail beard order.)
advanced, his mind was unchanged. Mr. BERNAL—I am sure the hon. baronet will, on eon-
Lord J. ItUsSELL said there had been a doubt as to sidenation, be sorry that he has used the wonl he did.
whether the hon. and learned member (Sir F. Thesiger) Sir 11. W. LIARRON—I tint sure, sir, you did not hear
Intended to pros his amendment, but as he had now de- my words. (Order, order.) I said, suit I repeat it, that
eland his intention to do so, he (Lord J. Itussell) trusted if the noble lord Charges the itiOll4ll catholic* of this house,
that the committee would keep to the discussion of the or of this country, with a base conspiracy against the liber-
amendment, and nut go into the general
.question involved ties of mankind, it is a lIASO imputation. (" lieu, hear,"
in the bill. (Hear, hear.) Ile agreed with the argument and laughter.) I say that it has no foundation in fact. I
which had hero stated by the Solicitor-General. The bill call on him for his proofs. I have a right to ask for
as it stood 07400411 y stated that there had been them. I have here the noble lord** words. In
Certain persons m this country who had assumed speaking of this appointment of catholic bishops by
the titles of archbishop and bishopon the authority of the the Pope, he used these remarkoble words It
see of Rome, and declared that an such assumptions were was a part of a conspiracy to prevent the extension of
void awl illegal, and proceeded to enforce penalties on the civil and religious liberty in Europe." (Hear, hear.) Now,
Moloturs of the law. It hail been said the bill did not point sir, mind it was the apppintment of the Mouton catholic
90 directly as was di 'plod& to what bail been the great cause bishops in this country thot WAS a part of this conspiracy.
of offence, that which hail excited so much indignation and Dues that, or does it not, cunnei•t the Roman catholice of
discuss* thripuol t the country, viz., the letters apostolic this country with a conspintey mailed the civil liberties of
received from Home The government hail cowidered that Europe ? (No. no.) Then I mu wrong. (Laughter.)
there Was some forte in this argument, and although the The hon. and learned baronet coucluded by urging that
preamble cuutainea a general declaration of the illegality of the amendment of the nolple lord (Arundel) was a test of
such :assumptions, they had agreed to introduce amend- the sincerity of the professions heretofore mode by ministers.
melts which went the length of declaring illegal and void The committee then divided—
the particular rescript of the l'ope iu queotitm. (Hear, For the amendment 6l
bear.) By acceding to the amendment they would take Against it
aw iy the strength which the measure possessed in dealing Mr. SADLEIR then nese to move an amendment. He
with a particular reecript end act of the Pope, and would said the noble lord did not appear to hint to be justified in
dilute and &PCT., the declaration of the preamble, in- assuming that the law Was what this clause declared it to
atead of making it more effective. be. Ile submitted that, inasmuch as the 'lonian catholic
Mr. ANSTEY held that if the amendment were agreed religion WAS an episcopal religion, and could not be per-
to it would be impossible for the Roman meditates to Pertly eleveloped except through the intervention of a re-
carry on any ecclesiastic:li organisation whatever. gularly-couetituted hierarchy, the legislation of 1519 gave
The clause under eonseleration was, in its pro- a full guarantee for the sanction and maintenance of on
sent shape, centime' to England, and in that ceisonory ; and he was anxious that the committee should
respect was honourably distinguished from the rest of the not "go beyond a simple declaration that briefs and re-
bill, Web extended its operatippii to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) scripts of the l'ope were unlawful and void fur temporal
To some parts of the present bill he (Mr. Atistey) objected, purposes. In 1816 the noble tont spill it was impoosible to
but Ono.• objections ho would state at tlw proper time. The prevent the introduction of bulls into this country. " Them
real qua anion, however, at present before the house• was, whe- are," said the noble lord, " certain bulls of the l'ope,
thee the bill should extend to Ire laud; and, looking at the which were absolutely accessory for the appointment
Matter ae lie did in this light, he must oppose the amendment. of bishops and pastors —(hear, hear)—belonging to the Ito-
Mr. WALPOLE bail prepared his amendments with man catholic church. Every one knows that now thy are
great care, and had fronted them with a view to the ape- not preveuted, but are, in fact, introilueol into this
ciecoffenee with which they had been dealing—the par. country." The noble lord went on to say that if bulls con-
e/him/ out of the kinioluin, and the interference with toe taincil anything seditious or Ova- enable, the introduction
weliouseticaljuriolict of our bishops by a foreign power. of theia would subject to:puu:Masent. This was an ;mete-
Me had thought that the proper method of meeting the ease rate description of the &tete of the CAMthe c.ause, If
was be a declaratory cuachnent. Ile had to remind the P•oo's°l as it stood, the practical result would be to prevent
noble lord (Lord J. Russell) that the original preamble the bishop from exercomo his authority where it was ne-
would not suit the bin itself; but he contended that his ceseary to do so for canoisical reasons. Ile thought that the
(Mr. Walpole'.) amendment, would bring preamble and addition of the words he proposed would meet and obviate
bill into it state of consistenc?.. (Hear, h,..„.) The many of the difficulties of the CAW, lie moved the insertion
amendment proposed by his lonourable and learned of the word., " for all temporal purees. ,"
friend (Sir F. Theeiger) made the measure of a less deli- Sir G. GREY said that this amendment was identical in
nib- character, and this error he (Mr. Walpole) had ull along spirit with that of the noble manlier for Arundel, which
heist auxious to guard against. for lie had avoided, as Cll. as had just been negatived by the committee. Ile therefore
proilde, words of a general bearing, lest they should by felt bound to oppose it.
passibility touch any functions or practices which were Mr. MONSELL wished to know from the law officers
purely religious. He would advise his hon. and learned of the crown what wintld be' the exact bearing of the
friend (Sir F. Thcsiger) to withdraw his amendment. Ile clause without the auwitillueut of the hon. member fur
(Mr. Walpole) by nu means o Oohed to exclude Ireland from Carlow.
the operation of the hill, for lie held this to be an imperial
The SOLICITOIt-G ENEUAL said that the bill made
political question. (Ilear, hear.) wapuio..) no Law, it merely declared the law as it stood at present.
amendments certainly refernal in !cuticula to England, Mr. SCULLI said the bow officer, of the Crown hail
and he did not wish to bring in Ireland unless the Pope stated that the law nopectiug the church in Ireland would
took on hint to do that which they condemned in England. be the same under the bill as it had been for the last liftv
(Hear, bear.) years. But he wished to know would this bill make all
After a few word. from Mr. SAI/LIER and Mr. Ileettv, reacripts from Rome null and void?
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that the government, by con-
Sir F. THESIGEII said he would withdraw his amend- renting to adopt the clause of the hon. and learned member
seating
sent on the unarnetanding that if the amendments of the fur Midhurst created alarm, lest the hill would affect
bon and learned member for al iplhuro were negatived, he the spiritual arts of the l'ope. The government
should ht at liberty to bring hirword his amendments sub- declared that it was nut their intention that it
sequently should have any such operation. If they were
After a few words from Mr. lli roe it, who charged the not satisfied with the wools which had been proposed by
bon. and learned nwinlier for Abingdon with inconsist- the noble lent the member fur Arundel, or those of the
eery is having supported the bill of 1816, repealing the hon. and learned member fur Carlow, they might take the
statute of Elizabeth, furbieliliag the introduction of l'opish matter into their hands, and propose a damn of word. of
bulls into this country, mid a statement frum Sir F. THE-
Lieu own, the more clearly to carry out what they de-
su om in expLanotion, dared to be their own intention. (►hem, hear.) If they
The clause was withdrawn. were not prepared at that mom-ut With such a clawo,
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY then moved they might take time till Monday to consider it. (.• Hear,
to insert in line 23, after the word "thereby," the words, hear," and laughter.)
"save in so far a, the exercise or use of such jurisdiction, Mr. KEOGH thought the suggestion of the hon. mem-
authority, pre-eminence, or title shall be necessary for her for Limerick a very reosonable one. (.• Oh, oh," and
spiritual purposes." According to the reading of the laughter.) The government had taken lour months al.
clause as it at present stood, a Itonein catholic bishop was ready to make up their minds to this clause, and an ad-
liable. to he indicted for misdemeanour for performing ditiunal week would be wanting. (" Ileux, hear," and
his spiritual futictinru, and as government had avowed lauglitio.)
that it was not their olqect to interfere with spiritual fine- Mr. WALPOLE said that they had been completely
tents, he trusted they would agree to this amendment. It wasting the time of the house for the last forty minutes—
wiLt quite impossible fur Itinuou catholic% to have bishops (hear ), because any person whip examined the clause would
unless they came from the Pope, and they could not have see that it had no COUlleXitill whatever with Ireland.
views apostolic, because they were abolished by this brief. Mr. SCULLY said that he had taken down the words of
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, they proposed by this the Solicitor-General, in which he said that this clause WAS
clause to declare that certoin briefs and resenpts addressed to applicable to all bulls. (Hear.)
certain bodies in this country were illegal and void; hut Mr. SADLEIII said that the Solicitor-General, a few
if they adopted this amendment they would declare that nights ago, in answering a question put by the right hon.
these briefs and rescripte should be legal and valid fur cer- gentleman the member for the University of Oxford (Mr.
taro purposes. If the main object of the rescript related Gladstone), said that the recital would comprehend such
merely to spiritual authority. he could understand it, but bulls as that Whirring to the see of Ross. (Hear, hear.)
when the main object was to establish a hierarchy' with 31r. GLADSTONE said lie rose for the purpose of
titles derived from places in this country, it seemed to him that bearing witness to the accuracy of what WAS stated by the
at the same time they declared them to be illegul and void, hon, and learned mentber for Carlow. (Hear, hear.) The
they admitted them to be valid for certain purpose.. They explanation IIOW given by his hon. and learned friend
bad mid, no doubt, all along, that they did not propose by (the member for Idielhurst) was, therefore. in direct con-
this bill to interfere with the spiritual authority of Homan tradiction with that which ow given two nights ago by the
catholic bishops in this country, unless the exercise of hon. and learned geutleman the Solicitor-Gemeal. (Hear,
authority was followed by ete.ooia„tkid title.. They said heir.) We (Mr. Gladstone) did ask why the bull relating to
so still, but if they asked then, to go beyond that, and to say the see of Ross was not included in the bill, and the hun.
they would acknowledge the exercise of spiritual jurisaic- and horned gentleman the Solicitor-General replied that
tins and Authority by persons taking upon themselves tem- the question could nut prisibly be put except by one totally
poral and ecclesiastical titles, they were asking them to do ignorant of law—(laughter)—because the clause being de-
that which they declared to be illegal and void. It ap claratury the general ,riue-ipie of law was that the clause
peered to him therefore they should stultify themselves by would he as applicable to bull, not named as to those
adopting the amendment. that were named. (Hear, hear.) But his honour-
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said if the hon. able and learned friend (Mr. Walpole) mid the clause
and 'corned gentlemin said they should stultify themselves would have no effect in Ireland. But his hon. and
by passing the amendment, he wanted to know what poso I learned friend was not perfectly consistent with himself,
lion the government stood in saying they would not interfere because he not only said that the clause did not apply to
with ecclesiastical government and then interfering with it. Ireland, but he said that it left the law as it was on the
Mr. 310011 E was at a lots to understand the explanation 28th of September. Then, if that were so, it did not
of the hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat dewy. apply to the case of England. This was but another in-
If he understood him rightly, he meant that the acts of the stance of those contradictions and contusions which met
archbishops and bipihops of the church in Ireland them at every turn when they were discussing the second
were illegal and void. Ile regarded this bill as a reading, and which only multiplied and accumulated upon
breach of notional treaty, as the violation of a solemn' them us they entered more into the consideration of
act of atonement made by • anion towards another, • eh this ill-fined measure. (Cheers front the Irish mem-
had suffered Kreuter wrong than ever nation suffered before. bete) The real fact was this, that the govern-
He warnedlthe houw not to let that great charter of a no. , meat did not think it necessary to point out to
tion's rights which l'itt had conceived, which Burke had the bull referring to the see of Muss in so many words.
proclaimed, of which Grattere was the apostle, and on which , (Hear, hear.) He did nut wish (and he gave them credit
Wellington had set his seal, be overthrown by a bill for the feeling) to refer to a bull affecting Ireland. (Hear,
that was the very heaters of diseordant opinions, and hear.) But the further they proceeded with the bill the
that the house in its returning sobriety was almost ashamed! greater were the di dicultoo in which they plunged them.
to par. (Cheese) If they did. Ireland would take es- I selves. (Hear, hear.) This decimators' enactment, as it
ample by England. The people of this country had ! was called, was inconsistent and unintelligible. (Hear,
h did it el I
taught them how an insult • --- their nations) faith; hear.) if itdaclarrltbelaw.7 ee Ore _ with
_ - -

upon
was to be met ; and they would pro& by the Irma.
England had taught them how a foreign aggression spew
their religion should be resistesl, " and it should go hard
but they would better the instruction." (Cheers.) Thu
bill, instead of being a national degradation, would prove
the alarm bell of their regeneration ; and twenty years
hence the standing toast of Irish religious independmsee
would be, " The Ecclesiastical Titles Bill." (Cheers.)
Mr. KEOGH thought it rather hard that gentlemen who
did not profess the Homan catholic religion should fancy
they knew best what was fitted fur those who did. (Hear.
hear.) The boo. and learned member for Midhurst (Mr.
Walpole), and all those hon. gentlemen who agreed with
him, ought surely, if they were sincere, to support the
amendment of the noble lord (the Earl of Arundel). H.
should like to know how the noble lord (Lord J. Russell)
could reconcile his previous declaration with • refusal to
vote for the amendment? (Hear, hear.)
Lord .1. RUSSELL said the clause as proposed was a
clause declaring what the law was. The boa. and lama
member for Midhurst had said, and he had not been mans
dieted even by the hon. aud learned gentleman who lei
just
inkspoen, that every lawyer would pronounce the cilium
to be conformity. with the law ; and that that whichtha
clause declared to be illegal and void, was already by law
illegal and void. If that, then, was the state of the law,
be (the noble lord) did not see how they could declare that
to be with certain limitations illegal end void which
was by law altogether so. (Hear, hear.) If the question
wee owe of expediency sad policy, the noble lord might