The Express.
London, England, 1851-03-18 00:00:00

had not yet been made. The bill would be introduced, in
that or the other house, before Easter.
METROPOLIS BUILDING:: BILL.
Alderman SIDNEY asked when this 101 l would be pro-

the hon. member for Bucks was most wrong, for he was
totally unacquainted with the whole matter, but wanted
to get up some charge against the Colonial-office, and he •
actually made out a reason on behalf of the Imo. member
for Inverness which that hon. member himsell had never
indicated. lie honoured the man who would bring a
great criminal to justice, but he could not say that he ho-
noured one who, when he had made his ne:usation, skulked
from the performance of his pledge. (Hear.)
Sir B. HALL thought the house would feel that the
noble lord could not bring forward the financial and other
great affairs of the country while such a motion was pend-
ing.
ECCLESIASTICAL T
ITLES
TE.ILL.—ADJOURNED
Mr. MOORE resumNl the debate on the second reading
of this bill. He said that the right hon. baronet the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department, in moving the
second reading of the bill, had professed that he would clear
the ground for the house to come to a proper understanding
on the subject. The hon. member then animadverted on
the shabby trickery that had Men manifested, and he then
made an attack on the maiden speech of the hon. baronet
the member for Tantworth, who hail raised such a dust
that he had rendered the whole question more obscure
than ever, and must have imbibed his opinions of the
Roman eatholies from the low Jacobins of the continent.
In addressing himself to the general question, he would
ask, find, had any aggression taken place—had the late act
of the l'opc been an as
and hail it been expressed
in language of an arrogant and insulting character? Second,
hail it been a temporal or a purely spiritual aggression ?
Third, if the Pope had been guilty of an aggression, had
that aggression been one which he had reasonable grounds
for believing would he offensive to the government and the
country, or bail he not just masons for conceiving that it
would not only be thought innocent, hut would he accept-
able ? Fourth, if any misconception or any error had arisen
in the mind of the Pope, not with regard to the intentions
or wishes of her Majesty, but with regard to the wishes,
the prejudices, the feelings, or the opinions of the English
pelple, had the relations we had maintained with
the government or the court of Rome been at all
calculated to remove it? In other words, did the blame
lie with the Pope or with the government of this country?
Fifth, in case the house should he of opinion that the case
called for interference to protect the crown against foreign
invasion and to vindicate the country against foreign insult,
was the present proposition of her Majesty's government at
all likely to elect those objects ? With regard to the first

cfvded with.
Lord SEYMOUR would flu an early day for the bill.
GOV ERN a/ENT BU SIN ESS.
Lord JOIIN RUSSELL—I wish to ask the hon. mem-
ber for Invents., (Mr. H. Baillie) whether he has made any
nrramtement with other members for bringing forward the
motion of censure on Lord Torrington and on the govern-
ment, in reference to the affairs of Ceylon, of which he has
given notice for the 25th ?
Mr. IL. BAILLIE—I have in the first plate to express to
the noble lord my regret that I should have been absent
from the house on Friday when he wished to put this roes-
tint to me. And in answering the question now, I must
take the liberty of observing that the course which the
noble lord has thought proper to adopt is one of which, I
think, I have great reason to complain. The noble lord has
stated that the motion of which I had given notice was a
motion of censure upon her alajesty's government,
and therefore that it is not his intention to bring forward the
Meat financial measures of the government until that sub-
ject is duly disposed of; thus placing me not only in the
invidious position of obstructing public huainess, but placing
the motion itself, not on its real merit., but as involving a
question of confidence or no confidence in the government.
And I am represented as taking up this position at • time
when the noble lord is well aware that no other party
in the country is prepared to take office. (A laugh.)
Now I beg to remind the noble lord that this is • question
of long standing. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has
shown much virtuous indignation within a few days; but the
noble lord must, neverthelesa, have been looking forward to
this identical motion for the last two years. I myself gave
formal notice of it last session ; and it was only in conse-
quence of the extraordinary course pursued by the govern-
ment in refusing to produce the evidence on which this
motion is founded that it has been delayed so long. (hear,
hear.) 1 think, therefore, that under these circumstances
the house will he disposed to admit that I am not liable to
the charge either of factious motives or of having
brought forward this motion with any view of
impeding important and necessary public business.
(Hear, hear.) I can perfectly well understand the
difficulties of the noble lord's position. 1 ran perfectly
well understand that the noble lord is anxious to (scope
from that position, and that, perhaps anticipating defeat on
this motion, he does not wish to be put to the trouble of
preparing and bringing forward those public measures
which, us minister of the crown, it is his duty to lay before
this house. But the noble lord is mistaken if be thinks
I shell allow myself to be made the instrument of enabling
him to escape from those duties which the situation
he has assumed, and the great public exigency of the
country, imperatively call on him to perform. The
course which I shall pursue is perfectly clear. I shall,
for the present, remove this notice from the books;
reserving to myself the undoubted right of bringing it for-
ward again whenever I may think proper so to do; that is
to say, whenever the public business of the country and of
the house is in such a state that I may be enabled to do so
without rendering myself °lino:jou; to the charge of inter-
rupting those most important measures—the financial mea-
sures of the government. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord
had stated the other day that he had a question to put to
him (Mr. Ilaillie). Bid the noble lied Mateo to ask any-
, thing at this time?
Lord J. ILUSSELL.—The hon. geatleman is a little mis-
I taken with respect to the ground upon which I stated the
views I took of the motion he was about to bring forward.
The hon. gentleman has for the last three years attended to
ithe affairs of Ceylon, and he stated at the commencement
on moving fur a committee that lie wished to pass a censure
upon tine conduct of the Secretary of State and of the
local governor, and the hon. gentleman has continued in
this opinion until now, and he wishes to luring forward 11
motion in conformity with his orinion. I cannot object to
any hon. member taking that course ; I have no objection
to it whatsoever—no one could object to it. But that which
Ido object to—and that I have a right to object to—is, that
any hon. member of this house should bring forward • pro-
position involving a charge of wanton cruelty against the
late governor of one of lie r Majtst y's possessions, and that such
cruelty hod been cenmitted under the full sanction of one of
her Majesty's Secretaries of State—that that hon. member
should make such a charge and then should not immediately
bring forward his motion. (Cheers.) I cm say that nut
only among the numerous precedents of accusations, but
I among the motions of censure which have been brought for-
ward in this house, there has never been a single instance in
which an hon. member of this house has brought forward
that which is clearly a vote of censure on u great depart-
ment of the government, when a Secretary of State at the
bead of it has refused or refrained [ruin bringing forward
his motion immediately afterwards. (Cheers.) 1 con-
cluded from the speech of the hon. member for Inver-
ses., that he was anxious to bring forward his mo-
tion—he had framed his own motion—upon that
day which he himself had named. (Hear, hear.)
1 could not have supposed that he would not have brought I
it forward on that day. What I did suppose—and was
.011(11114 in supposing—was that a government with such a
thing as a vote of censure hanging over their heads, and
such an opinion expressed as that which had been pro-1
nouneed against them, could not begin any great nunisure
that hail not yet been introduced into that house; but that
they must pause; and deter those proceedings until that
motion had been brought forward and settled. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to the late transactions it has
been said—and justly said—of all the parties in this
country, who may b. expected to desire or to assume
the administra ' of the government of this country, that
their conduct has been perfectly fair and honourable—
(cheers)--that in their conduct there was no passim', or
animosity, or personal dissatisfaction. (Hear, hear.) I
rejoice at this being the opiidun of the public, and the feel-
ing of those who were engaged in those transactions. But,
with respect to the conduct of a great party, who say thin
they have a elisirwu of great cruelty against her Majesty's
government, and against a noble lord lately the governor
of one of the colonies of this country, and that they hare a
charge also against the Secretary of State for sanctioning
that cruelty, and who say also than they will keep that
charge 'suspended over us, indefinitely, avowing that they
will nut tell us when they will bring it before the house
hear.)-1. must say that, in my °tannin, such con-
duct, tested by the principles guiding ordinarily fair and
honourable conduct, mast, in regard to such a motion as
this, be greatly blamed. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI said he must remind the house that at that
moment most important documents which had been subs
mitred to the committee on Ceylon were not before them,
together with a mass of evidence, recently given, all of
which must be necessarily produced in order to enable any
hon. member to form an opinion on the subject. Nor was
that all. These important documents would not be ready,
as he was informed. for a fortnight. Under the eirtum-
stances the noble lord nerd not he surprised that his hon.
friend, the member for Inverness, hail brought forward this
motion. Let the house remember that this 1111/1 a grave
judicial inquiry; that his hon. friend was about to ask them
fur a verdict on the conduct of a governor of one of the
colonies, and upon the administration of the government
of Ceylon, and that hon. members would not be in a
position to entertain the question if the documents neces-
sary to enable them to form an opinion were not produced.
The house had only that moment received the evidence
of two years, and then the Under Secretary said he
would not be able for upwards of a fortnight,
to produce all the documents in possession of the cont. I
mince. The house being in this position in regard to
the evidence taken before the committee, the noble
lord got up, and in • tone of virtuous indigna-
tion complained to the house of what he called
the unfair conduct of a great party. (Ilear, hear.) The I
noble lord would have wished the house to arrive at a judi-
cial decision in the absence of documents and in the ltb-
sence of the party whose policy was peculiarly implicated ;
hut his hon. friend the member for Inverness had taken
the course which good sense and right feeling dictated—
(hear, hear)—and he appealed to the verdict of the country
for his justification. (Cheers.)
Sir G. GREY adverted to the difference between the
arguments and conduct of the hon. member for Inverness,
and his friend, letuler, and protector. He (Sir G. Grey) was
in the house when that hon. member occupied a place atthe
table, standing before the front bench of the opposition, and
read distinctly, in answer to his name when called upon,
the motion which he distinctly said he should submit to the
house on the 2.5 th of the month. The hon. member might
have named • more distant day, but he solemnly and em-
phatically rose upon his feet, and said that that was the
proposal he should submit to the house on the 25th of the
present month. (Hear, hear.) And now, when his
noble friend asked the honourable member if he was pre-
pared to submit his charge against the government
to the hoose, he did &sot say he was nut prepared to put It
forward, but he said that he would not stand in the way of
the important business which it was the duty of his noble
friend at the head of the government and his colleagues to
bring forward,—whereas the real reason now came out,
that he was not prepared to bring it forward, and that he
dared not, under present circumstances, bring it forward—
but claimed for himself the right to bring it forward on
some future occasion. But the hon. member for Bucks had I
let out that when that motion was put on the paper
the hon. member for Inverness knew there was not the
slightest chance of bringing it forward on the day he had
fixed. (Hear, hear.) He was justified in animad-
verting upon such conduct on a question involving a rru.t
serious imputation—(hear, hear)—and he hoped that this
proceeding was not an indication of the spirit in which this
inquiry would be commenced and acted upon by the hon.
gentleman and his friends. (Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK said that thezro,wllenahole transaction gave
higowanim.edthrnm.gruj:,h,tuwptcrediainheTnasthhtoeaehtfhinue.ecw.tinnigieptyntrythhbepeearred.f. good fnifdeitnithhwee:orif
uppthe
reropay.dd reevoileonial
now,
bring to
tnrh o:21. ni.
administration c,
hie
yho saft bringingcharge
ohe t large
d: itnt against
n o,e
orafil forward,tdhr
that e
trulyt hTh administrationeuor,nondbl4l, e
that ln
charge
hr lord had.7lile,ttah
swi
otiwticceah h:givend,ninootf
fact, affected the whole of the government. He was not
prepared to say that under the circumstances the noble lord
had not a claim upon the house as in former days. But the
noble lord spoke of present weakness, and beeiuse of that
treaties* the great interest* of the country were to be sacri-
ficed—(hear, hear)—and the hon. member for Inverness was
allowed to hang over the head of a man who had long re-
presented this country in one of the colonies thereof with
vague charges yolich he solemnly stated he was prepared to
rpoaes—be(lino,uuthdrui:echeens)—
tthhhaeen dcg
great
buteit
character
sowf fur
t...n eoc
make. and the knowledge of which he had stated before-
hand
or certain
ite
hnecoP
representativesnr tt
party
country wereu ccoedlonaine!
held up to odium upon statements and quibbles. # ap-
peared to him that both parties were wrong. The hon.
member for Inverness had made a distinct charge, and it
was wrens to withdraw it. But of all who were wrong,

particular, he (Mr. Moore) acknowledged that on act of , .eir church,
spiritual aggression had been committed, and that in the well as the two others. He was opposed to this bill also
most decided manner—an act of aggression the object of because it was a retrograde movement—it was going hack
which was to facilitate the conversion of the people of the to the intolerance of the past century. He also up-
country to the Roman catholic faith. He contended for the posed it because the net would be a delusion upon this
right of every man in a free country to make such aggres- country. Let him ask her Majesty's government, or any-
shins, and promulgate his own opinions, provided these lowly who knew the responsibility of government, whether,
were recognised and tolerated, and in religion particularly if they extended this bill to Ireland, they were prepared to
such a license became a necessity. Aggression was the carry it out in that country ? Did they suppose or were
vital principle el every Christian religion. It was they confident that, acting upon that bill, they would get
the agaregive principle of Christ's teaching that any conviction from a Roman catholic jury in Ireland ?
caused him to Ise nailed to the cross ; it was the Would they venture to appeal to them or would they
aggressive nature of the preaching of his disciples which take the worse alternative of packing a protestant
subjected them to persecution, and the Christian faith on jury to try • Roman catholic in that country ?
earth would cease to be Christian when it ceased to be ag- (Cheers.) it was only the protestant bigotry of the
gr.:give. It ill became the English to talk of spiritual ar- country, stirred up and fomented by the protestant
ragtime, for there was no arrogance at all to be compared bishops and clergy themselves, es:eking to oppress
to that of British protestants. What did they think of their rivals, which hail made the great outcry
the language put into the mouth of their own Queen, they had heard. (hear.) More absurd still than even the
to whom the Human catholics owed and were willing non-application of the bill to Ireland was its extension to
to pay the must loyal obedience? Hail this ag- Scotland, where the only point on which persons of every
grrasion been a temporal as well as a spiritual aggression on creed and every denominatiou were agreed was their utter
the part of the l'ope ? It was impossible to over-estimate abhorrence and repudiation of the Queen's supremacy. The
the importance or this branch of the subject, because if the right hon. baronet the Secretary for the Home Depurtment
recent act of the l'ope were proved to be an invasion of the had told theist that the protestant bishops of that country
sovereignty of the Queen, he did not believe there were to be exempted ; but could anything be more unjust
was one in the house who would not protest or more monstrous ? The episcopahan bishop in Scotland
against it, es absurd and insulting. The matter was in precisely the same position es Dr. M•Halc in Ire-
involved a grave charge, not only against a foreign land ; both Ind assumed titles unfounded in law ; and yet,
prince, but a large portion of her Majesty's subjects, and when the right hon. baronet brought in a bill to punish
some onus of proof lay with those hon. members of the Dr. Wattle, he proceeded to put into his measure a
house who called tier legislative interference. He had not clause to exempt the protestant bishop in Scotland from
only listened to speeches made by hon. members, hut he the same penalty. lie repeated that nothing could be
had 54611.61, read theta over, and compared them, lead he pro- more monstrous or unjust. (liver.) lie believed the noble
tested that he could not find a single speech of importance lord had propounded the bill solely for the puriewe
in which it was even asserted the Queen's ravcreiguty had of bolstering up the protestant church in Ireland—a church
been invaded. The honourable member then rep- which had been admitted by the universal verdict, he might
plied himself to the refutation of some remarks made ahuost say, of all mankind, to be based upon injustice,
'by the noble lord, the member for Ilath (Lord Ashley) ; and to be nothing but a badge of cunquen. (Hear, hear.)
the hen. and learned gentleman, the member for Ox- If such were really the object of the bill, that alone was a
ford (Mr. P. Worst), the hon. baronet (Sir rt. Inglis), good reason why they should vote fur its rejection. (Cheers.)
land the Attorney- General. He (Mr. Moore) argued that But somebody said that it was intended to protect the pro-
the claim of spiritual jurisdiction by the Pope over testant church of England. That question had been
every baptised man, was the same as was set mooted before the passing of the Emancipation Act in
up by other classes of religionist+ the same ISItl, when a gnat number of respectable old gentlewomen
as the bishops in England and Scotland and the were dreadfully afraid that if they admitted catholic!, within
bishops of the ° anti-national " church in Ireland the pule of the constitution the protestant church would be
hail always act up, and he contended that the limn:in elsiken to its centres to another place an amendment was
catholic body was quite justified in setting up the sane proposed respectieg the assumption of titles by the Roman
claim of spiritual jurisdiction. Ile went on to inquire if catholic*, its principle being very similar to that of the pre=
this, aggression had been one which the Pope hail reason• sent bill. On that occasion the Duke of Wellington dy-
able grounds fur conceiving would be offensive to the dared, in supporting the amendment, that it would be no
English people ? On Olio point he remarked that the noble security ; but the clauses were introduced merely for the
lord (Lord J. Rusted!) had acknowledged that he had satisfaction of those who were disturbed by the assumption
said all lie had bseu accused of saying, and that all lie of such titles. (Hear, hear.) In like manner the Earl of
(Lord J. Russell) was now doing was in direct contradic- Malawsbury objected to the clause on precisely the same
tion to what he had formerly said. Giving instances in grounds. Ile had opposed the bill ; and he said that to
support ofthis assertioa, he cams, then to the next point, and have kept Rumen catholic", out of parliament would have
he asked if any error or iniwoneeptionliad arisen in the mind been a real security. But, that hating been lost, his lordship
of the Pope, nut with recant to the government, bat with declared that to call these clangs* a security was a joke end
reference to the ot ai aa ious of the people of this country; had worse than is joke, because they would tend to keep alive
the mignons we hail maiutained with the court and smvern- that irritation which it Was the object of the hill to prevent.
'emit of Rome been such as to prevent the possibility of (Ilea, hear.) It was quite clear the noble lord would not
such misunderstanding? lie (!sir. Moire) maintained have ikun the steps he had in reference to the papal ag-
that in this agitation those who sought to inflict fresh disa- gression," had it not been for tractarianism. They had all
bilitics on the members of the Roman catholic faith were heard a great deal about the Rev. Mr. Bennett, of whom
fighting with an imaginary evil. lit conclusion, he lie wished to speak with the greatest possible respect. A
would ask if the bill proposed by the noble lord (Lord great outcry had been made about him bccause it was said
J. Russell) was the hest measure to prevent arrommcc. it that he had exceeded the l'rayer-book. 'They were told
appeared to him to effect no purpose' whatever. 'ho enact a that they must screw Mr. Bennett down to the rubric; but
statute :wailed the assumption of ecclesiastical titles was nut lie asked them whether there were not a gnat many more
to pass a law against foreign aggression. (Hear, hear.) clergymen in London whom they ought nut rather to screw
It aft, eted nut the kreign power, but their own subjects, up to the rubric ? (Cheers and laughter.) 11c would
and the real art of which they complained, the division of give them one or two instances. In the first place, every-
the country out" diucuses, it did not affect at all. It rip- hody knew that the Prayer-brook was nothing more not lies
pealed to him that a resolution of both houses, QS suggested thou an net of parliament. (No, no.) Well, it was at all
by Lord Aberdeen, would have met the question of foreign events the appendix to the Act of Uniformity; and
aggwasion and the assumption of titles 'armor,: diractly then the rubric was a part of the statute law of the
this loin. By enacting statutes which were not intended to land. Now, in a commentary upon the Prayer-book,
be earths' into effect, or, what was far more fatal, intended by Mr. Stephens, published by the Ecclesiastical history
to lie carried into effect in one part of the country only and Society, of which Prince Albert, three archbishops, and fit-
not in another, he said they would commit a far greater teen bishops were patrons, it was stated that the holy titbit,
aggression upon the national dignity than was gam/tined at One royal chapel of St. Jamey ~, and at the chapel of
by the act of Which they complained. Trinity College, Dublin, was So placed that it was impos-
Mr. WIGRAM said the great question was how far the sible tor the priest to stand on the north side as directed.
present measure would invade the principle of religious (Hear, hear.) Again, it was well known that in order that
liberty. The measure had been treated as if it were one a. members of the church might obtain correct copies of
of little consequence to the country—as if it were one of the Prayer-book, the privilege of printing it was confined
mere speculative opinion. lie was satisfied, at all events, to the two universities and to the Queen's printers. Mr.
that was not the case ; and he stated that, not from any
Stephens book showed that the Prayer-books pub-
opinious of his, but from history and the examples of limbed by all three were full of inaccuracies, and
nations around them. Wherever they found the It bosh that in an Oxford edition of 17911 there were no fewer
system in operation there they would find the liberties of than 12,41.10 variations tram the scaled copy. (Hear.)
the people supprus=ed, and wherever the aggressions of the The work of Mr. Stephens went on to remark that
church of Rome were checked there they would find the the Attorney-General would only be acting in the strict
liberties of the people upheld. flaring instanced various coon- discharge of his duty if he filed an information against the
tries as showing this to be the case, he said he did not tbr a printers for a breach of trust, of which all were unworthy.
moment say that thew consequences resulted from uny (Hear, hear.) He considered that the noble lord and the
peculiarity of the ltomish faith. lie believed he could law officers of the crown might profitably exercise their seal
sae, ar a protestant, much in that faith which was ex= for religious reform in correcting these abases without ex-
tremely erroneous, but he did not desire at all to impute tending it to the unhappy minority in this country, and to
these peculiarities to the faith of the church of Rome. But the equally unhuppy majority in Ireland. (heer.) lie
he did impute them to the ecclesiastical system. lie supposed that it would be no use to implore the noble lord
found that that system affected uniformly all countries in to pause ; but if he still persisted in his measure, he might
which it was in operation • and he believed the cause to be depend on meeting with opposition in every step he took.
adequate to the results. Ile thought these instances were No doubt the intended persecution was nothing to what
very strong ; they gave an example and instruction to the the people of Ireland had suffered; but still it affected them '
government, front every state in which the Itomish system iu what they held most dear. Anything that interfered with
was found, that without infringing on the free exercise of their religious institutions was not only disagreeable to
his religion by every subject in the land, the progress of them, but they felt that it disgraced them in the eyes of the
that system should Mt watched and put under restraint. world, and therefore that they would be slaves, and worse
But he would go to the question whether the recent move- than slaves, if they submitted quietly to a law such as this.
meat on the part of Cardinal Wiseman, in the introduction (dear, bear.) Ile did not wish to use exciting language,
of the papal bull into this country, called for legislative in- for he had too large a stake in the country; but he warnet
terfirence. Now, certainly, he did not consider that them that this measure would be the straight and open road
anything in that movement, so fur as it was purely and to rebellion in Irelaud. if they persisted in that bill, its
clearly a religious movement, did call in any way for effect would be to declare war with the Irish nation ; and in .
egislativc interference. lie was the last man weo would such a case, upon the government, and not upon them, be
wish in any way to interfere with any purely religious the responsibility. (Cheers.)
motive by any act of the legislature. (Cheers.) Mr. H. D. SEYMOUIt intimated that he should not
But this movement had an aspect of a very different so soon have claimed their indulgence, as a new member,
character. The challenge had been thrown out, and it but that he was anxious to express his opinion upon the im-
was asked how this movement was to be termed an ag- Isortant bill before the house. It was his intention, then, to
gression. lie believed that it was an aggression, and that give his firm opposition to the measure, notwithstanding
it was an aggression on those principles which ought to be that with the general policy of the government he
held very sacred in this country, and especially by Roman cordially agreed. (Cheers.) He was well acquainted with
catholics. The basis of the compact on which the r:manci- the almost superhuman efforts which were being made by
pation Art was passed in 1829 was this , it was admitted by the Roman catholics to spread their religion not only in
Roman catholic, that in respect of temporal matters the this country, but throughout the whole world; but from
Pepe of Rome bud not, and could not have, any power or that circumstance he rather should draw consolation, be-
authority in this country. He could not look at the intro- cause he thought that a by no means inadequate and in-
duction of this bull into this country without considering it judicious effort had been taken to resist them. (Cheers.)
as a direct infringement of that pnnciple. He considered it Ile was aware that this crisis had not come upon them -
so upon the grounds which had been already stated, and expectedly. It had been fur a long time in agitation ;
which could not be too much dwelt upon and studied. It and he remembered that ten or twelve years ago, at
Was stated that the object, and the sole object, of introduc- a time when the Roman catholic, were preying for the
ing this bull into this country, and the cstublislunent of the conversion of England, they were considering that 0 i-
hierarchy, was to introduce into this country the canon nation which was beginning to take effect amongst us.
law, which assumed a direct interference in respect to tem- (Hear, hear.) He thought the bill was wholly n • ffi-
poral matters in this country. Cardinal Wiseman dis- cient. It was a violation of civil and religious liberty to
tiuctly avowed that to be the object. In his pastoral interfere with bishops, but he would have an enactment to
monastic edseetapbilyishamnedincs..."(Headird.)rd Nod custom had
inot
another
re
constitution o 1 two
d
address the cardinal said the canon law could be intro- restrain the number and look carefully into the ge-
chEcoituheldt ,ever me meat
tstruck o f
m it
tdhaecch•ddliyntsi thise.,
e m ust country
loos
only
any
supply all wants, but which would be necessarily limited, ' society on the continent than this. Happily the •
or the complete constitution of the church must he at once I was falling off on the continent, especially in France, and .
extended to England, so far as was compatible with her if the people of this country were so infatuated as to go
social position; but in order to adopt this second and more overtotheJesuit party itwaselesirablethatlegislative restrics
natu ryral course one condition was necessa •, and I dons should be impiric:d. He knew that be perhaps hazarded
that was, the catholic-1 must have an hierarchy, his sent for an E 1. h borough by speaking thus •
1 ng li, out us plainly
as the canon law was inapplicable under vicars apostolic. about the Roman catholic" , he had not dams so in private
It was plain then that the court of Rome determined not life, but now felt it his duty. to do it. (liter
to iutroduee another constitution applicable to vicars epos- I Mr. Gof the OULBURN said that much •.)
speech
of the hon.
tolic, because that would have been difficult, and that member for Cork (Mr. Roche) would have been quite ap-
the hierarchy was introduced solely with the object of en- i propriatc, had the question been about renewing the privi-
forcing the canon law. It was also clear that the canon . ledes of the universities. He could not agree in that hon.
law assumed, in direct violation of the prine:ples of thee' gentleman's opposition to the bill. If he thought it an
on cmainipati act, the power of the Pope of Rome to inter- '
i innovation on the art of ISM, he would note el • it his support.
Ifere in ryniect to tenesoral matters. And the doctrines of : (Hear, hear.) He had been a party to the framing of that
, the canon law were nu antiquated doctrines ' • they were ; compact between the Roman catholic body and the people
I still recognised and insisted upon. Another met t and dis • '
of this country, and be would not knowingly allow either one
, ground for interference was the assumption of territorial - party or the other to depart from its provisions, or consent
titles, which he, fur one, concurred in saving was a viola- to its spirit being violated.ln the •
present bill there was
tion of the prerogatives of the crowns These titles might -no such violation of the compact then made. The act of
be earlesiastical ea part, but they were certainly also tern- 1829 contained a
direct
and specific prohibition of the
pond. It was thl. exclusive right of the Queen to comer ' assumption of the titlesof
territorial titles in this country, and the Pope of Rome had 6 bishop of the Roman catholic church, and it was not pre-
no more jurisdiction to appoint a bishop with temporal • tended that there •
even now was any wish to extend the
power in this country than any fonign potentate had to numberof bishops in
Ireland, or to assume titles not
introduce a foreign noblemaa with e territorial title. -It had lalready prohibited by the act of 1829. And when the hon.
been strongly insisted upon, and he must say that had sum- ' gentleman (Mr. Roche) said, with a kind of threat, that in
prised Jim, that whatever at one time might
have been . any attemptenforcethis
prohibition catholic juries
the effect of papal interference, them Wall IWO ground to a 'would to
P- not be found to convict persona indicted under the

ptehend mischief at the present day, and that the Pope at law as it stood, he did not act fairly by his Roman catholic
the present dey was a religious and not a temporal pontiff countrymen in imputing to them that they would not hr. ss
! But he must say he had been able to find no symptoms ready to fulfil the provisions of a solemn contract entered
that the power of the Pope of Rome had not been as mis- into fur their special benefit In 11e29, as any
chievous in this as in former days. In some countries h nest protestant would be. The act id the popc,
indeed it had not; but that WAS bemuse it had been kept war undoubtedly an act of aggression • but, taken in a,
under due restraint. Then it wan said this bill would be `religious sense, he was not prepared to led with it, for he
an invasim of the principles of religious liberty. The Roman held that the believers in every religion, if sineure in their
eatholiesantnedusif they werethegreatupholdereofreligioue .belief, were necessarily aggressive. He objeutisl to the act
liberty. It was not for him to say that individual Roman !of the l'ope, because it was an act of civil ag-
. catholic, did not entertain thieve views, hut he was sure I gressinn ; it invaded the prerogative of the crown
they were not the views of Roman eatholice generally. by dealing with territorial titles which beh•cured
Ile thought they would protect themselves by this measure Ito the crown wily. it was an attempt, in the
from any imputation of having acquiesced in this move- first instance, to invade the privileges of the established
ment. If they acquiesced in it it would he but the step- church, and assail the protestant religion. The measure
ping-stone to another, and then they would be told that was one utterly unprovoked by any act on our part with
they should have objected to it at the present time. The respect to the Homan catholic... (Ilene, hear.; lie had
right principle in all cases of this kind was rrincipiis (Ado. heard it said that this act of the Pope was in name.. for
One word with respect to the measure. lie did not think some supposed misconduct of the noble lord opposite, in
it ar comprehensive an it might have been. Ile thought it lending himself to some feeling in Rome which the Pope
should have prevented the introduction into this country of was anxious to euppress; but he did not bdil`Ye that such
any bull of the lope, and that it should have given power a feeling had actuated the Pope, though he had heard it
to the government by proclamation to prevent any move- front authority. Be that as it might, the eeelesicstieal AT-
ment of this kind. Believing, however, the measure Wbe rangemeut which it was proposed to introduce here wag
undertaken in a sound spirit, he was prepared to give it his conwyted with a civil power which might disturb our peauw
humble support. and defeat our internal civil policy. (Hear, le .tr.) When
Mr. E. B. ROCHE had the strongest objections to this , was there a period when there was less disposition on the
measure. Re objected to it, first and foremost.hecause the bill part of that house or the country to give t.; the
if they pawed it would be an infringement of the Emanci • Unman catholies equality of privilege, and to with-
pation Act ; and he held that, if there was to be anything draw everything which could look like a cement
like faith in public men and public acts, the Emancipation or distrust of them ? Every year almost had icrn marked
Act was the charter of the liberties of the Roman catholic, by some new concession—(hear, hear)—by the withdrawing
in England and Ireland. The Emancipation Act gave of laws which were obsolete, hut which were supposed to
Itoinan catholic.; power to take titles from any place not reflect on the character of oman catholic*, and the only
occupied by bishops or archbishop; of the established reward for these concessions was a measure from the cove-
church. That was recited in the preamble of this bill, reign Pontiff which wax an invasion of the royal preroga-
which then went on and enacted that they should not live. (Hear, hear.) This measure, unprovoked as it was,
take a title front any place in the United Kingdom. That, WAS not necessary to the exercise of the It.•man catholic
he ands natal, was 1111 infraction of the Emancipation religion. fled the case been such that the Homan eatholica
' Act. The right hon. baronet Roil her Majesty's government could not have eceledastical sup erintendenee without the
said they meant to alter this bill, and did not intend that it adoption of such a measure, he should have been content
should be so stringent As it was when they first brought it to sacrifice much in the way of objection. But that was
in, and that they had omitted two clauses. Now he doubted not the caw,. As to the mode in which this aggress
ye ry much whether by erasing tl wee clauses they hiul improved sion had been met, he did not, by the vote ho
the bill. The right hon. baronet said he had been intormed war about to give, approve of the whole course that
that the thirst and fourth clauses interfered with the robin- had been taken. More moderation on the part of the
tars endowment by the laity of the Roman catholic church, government in the first instance, and le,s disposition
and by erasing thew. two clauses he proposed to take off that to aggravate the feeling thmughout the country in the
restriction. Well now, if the right hon. baronet were sincere minds of the protestant body, would have led to a more
in his desire to enable the Roman catholic laity to endow calm and deliberate discussion than had been obtained.
their church, he was bound to withdraw the first clause as (Rear, bear.) And he could not but feel that the die-

crepancy. be'tween the measure now proposed, and
the original excitement, which the acts of the
government had greatly tended to produce, was
calculated to act prejudicially. (Hear, hear.) But he
was not called on to madder what would have been his
first course bad he been called on to deal with the question
oh /neer. The bill was before them ; and after the feeling
that had been eeproweed by the country, and his own judg-
ment as to the l'ope's aggression, he had to consider what
was the safest course to pursue--to adopt the till or reject
it. If the latter, had he the means oof introducing another
measure which he thought better calculated to resit that
power whore progress he thought it his duty to resist? If
not, could he take a better mode of making a specific de-
claration that the measure of the Polk wan line aeainoot
which the country felt itself bound to remonstrate with all
its force and power, and to maintain reetrictions until the
Pope, acting under better advice., Humid reetore the state
of things which existed prior to his making use
of this new weapon of annoyance and thereon' ? (Hear.) 110
night be told that that time never would arrive ; that
when the l'ope hail once Made a rewript it was impossible
for him to withdraw it. Ilistory and precedent showed
that this was not the case. The Pollee if' he ;dewed, coould
recal his hull constituting thew dioceses in England: ho
could, if disposed to conciliate the good-will of this country,
and the feelings of many of the highest members of the
Roman catholic body of this country, who wen' entitled to
the greatest consideration, withdraw the bull he had issued.
Sir 11. W. BARRON feared that these diesertatioms, now
of six weeks' duration, on papal bulls bail ae little tended
to useful legislation an Miss Edgewoorth'e " flee:ly on Irish
Bulls" had tended to improve the breed of cattle in Gal-
way. (Hear, hear.) It had done *come; it had raked up
all the embers of religious diecord ; torn asunder tee, and
set man against man where religious feuds were so tiling
down into quiet. All the musty old decree" and bulls of
he Itoruish church had been thrown in the teeth of Ro-
man catholics; one hon. gentleman had raked up the mas-
sacre of St. Bartholomew ; while another hail anticipated
the excommunication of the Queen, awl the catholic church
taking possession of all the church property in the country,
and turning all the protestants into the highway. (Laugh-
ter.) This would be ludicrous, if it wen: not lamentable,
to see such statements sent forth to alarm obi ladies and tho
vulgar multitude, who were taught to belies., that if Car-
dinal Wiseman was not put down there would in, a renewal
of the fires of Smithfield. But did thew pereons for-
get that the horrors had not been all on one
aide—that there had been horror, of Henry VIII.,
of John Knox in Scotland, moil of l'romwell in Inland?
They should recollect there were two eel., to these eases of
perseeution. It should not he exclusively set down to
Roman catholies or prutietante, or to their respective creeds.
It should be set down to its true meaning, pdities noel the
infamous pawii.ns of man, which tempted them in the name
of their religion to commit those atrocities. Were Roman
catholim to Ike taunted with those horror, which had been
committed in pest tines? It was unjust and indecent
.in
the ee day.: and men should reflect before bringing such
matters forward for disco pion. For hie owe part, he
lamented to see such subject., brought forward there. ( Lieer,
hear.) It had been said that the Pope insulted the Queen
by assuming temporal authority in this country.
Now, he believed there never hail been oinything farther
from the Pope's intention. It would be inipslitic for
him to do 1111, seeing that he was aloout to establish a
hierarchy in her realms. But there were many reasons
why the Pope should conceive he was not ollering an insult
to the Queen. In the first place, the Pope vs as coenisaut
that, as the right hon. gentleman (Mr. fieulleini) had
stated, this country hail been for a series of years engaged
in removing all causes of complaint felt lov the Roman cm-
tholics of those countries. But it was stud the wording of
the bull gave offence. Now the very emote words were
wed in the Galway rmeript that were used in the West-
minster. (Hear, hear.) In fact, the very iroistionot effect
had Wen used by the Pope on all such oceasions daring the
last 300 years. It had been asked, " Why not go on with
your vicar. apostolic, who conducted ecelmiustical affairs
without difficulty or offence?" lii answer to that wm,
that these things could only he judged of by Roman
catholic., who, were the parties to he satietiod. Ile appealed
to the signature of the noble earl (Antitolel unit Surrey). as
also of those of the 3110 noblemen and gentlemen :merited
to the petition to his holiness, requesting NM, three years
since, to establish the hierarchy in the, country ; and which
request at that period disproved the usurtion that
the thing was now done for the purpose of annoy-
ing the noble lord the foreign secretary. (Hear, hear.)
The protestants of this country, according to their ewe'
showing, should prefer independent arelibishoope and bishops
to vicars apostolic, who were dependent upon and remove-
able at the pleasure of the Pope. (Hear. hear.) The de-
graded state of catholic countries, and Italy in particular,
hail been referred to by hon. gentlemen. But every country
had its day. Who hue the popes and ecelesiusittee of the
ldth century raised up literature from the condition in
which it was plunged by the Goths, the Hums and the
Vandals; and that at a period when England was in com-
parative obscurity ? (Hear, hear.) Could they not heist
of Gregory the Gnat? Were not their police the patrons
of such immortal names as Taxon, Ariortn, and Dante, as also
of Raphael, Guido, and Dorninichino ? (Hear, hear.) But
notwithstanding all that they were told, that Romanis=
"confined the intellect and enslaved the soul," Franco
could boast of a Richelieu, a Mar.arin, a Massillon. and a
Fenelon. (Hear, hear.) And, coming home to England,
what were their Henries and Edward., the conqueror. at
Cressy and Agincourt? (Hear, hear.) Who established
Magna Charts?—the proud catholic barons; and the infidel
Hume, who never omitted an opportunity of railing at
Rome, declared " that nothing forwarded the confederacy
of the barons against King John so much as the concur-
rence of Archbishop Langton." (Hear, hear) Was it not
their catholic ancestors who erected those glorious
monuments of piety which studded the country
all over—Salisbury Cathedral, York Minster, and the
glorious pile, Vs edminster Abbey, which stood at
their very door ? (Hear, hear.) But away with such. If
the Queen had been insulted, her government Mad the
power of sending an ambassador to Renee ; but as for the
present paltry and contemptible bill, it wow food for nothing
but insult, and its consequences would be to make Ireland
a still greater difficulty than heretofore. (Hear, hear.)
There would be no insurrections, but there would be a sum
pieinn and n hatred of British domination. (lieu?, hear.)
Mr. CALVERT (new member) said that he hoped the
house would pardon the anxiety he felt in addressing them
on the present question. First, with regard to the
charge of persecution. No man in that house felt a deeper
interest in the welfare of Ireland. He had often visited
that country, and ha never returned from it but with an
anxious and deep desire to see all the grievance., and cala-
mities which he witnessed in different pouts of that country
removed. (Hear, hear.) And with regard to the Roman
catholic* of England, they were as loyal and exemplary a
body as could be found in the kingdom. (Hear, hear.) Hes
could not forget that in the days of the Spanish armada
great Roman catholic admiral was at the head of the fleet ;
and that men of high rank and distinction, who were de-
alma, to serve as officers in the fleet, finding that the rules
of the service prevented them from becoming officers, en-
tered the service of their country as private sailors and
soldiers. (Hear, hear.) It was therefore with an anxious
desire to do justice both to the Roman catholies of this
country and of Ireland that he approached the subject.
With regard to this being a retrograde step in respect to
the act of 1829, he begged to observe that the act of 1829
we:spatted for the purpose ofestablishing the civil privileges
of the Roman catholics. There was only one clause in that
act which hail reference to the q iuestion of spiritual jurs -
diction—the clause, namely, which laid a penalty on any
prelate who should take the title of any see then existing.
R was mid that this clause did not prevent
prelates from taking titles from other places nut being
' existing sees. But considering that it was hish treason up
to the act passed four yearn ago to affirm that any prince or
prelate had spiritual or ecclesiastical jurisdiction within the
realm, it could not be said that they were legislating against
the act of 1829 if they pained a measure to cripple
the authority of the Pope with respect to the crea-
tion of sees not mentioned in the act of 1820. (Hear,
hear.) They had been charged, with persecution for
' attempting to legislate in this manner. But who
originated the transaction that gave rise to the agitation?
Was it not the person who crone conomiseioned from a
foreign potentate, and who asserted spiritual autho-
rity over him ? (" No, no," and " Hear, hear.") Yes
did not he come under the authority of a foreign potentate?
—did he not erect a cardinal's throne in the neighbourbood
of Lambeth ?—and did he not claim spiritual jurisdiction

-----
over thin country? (Hear, sear.) And it was milled , had aided this organisation and abetted these establish-
persecution to p.m • 121.11.17 re to prevent this sort merits departed in any shape helm the undivided
of thing. it was an abuse and a mockery of 'allegiance which they owed to their sovereign—had
language to tall it by sneh • name. (Hear, hear.) The they violated the law of the land, or infringed on the spirit
principle ins lved in the question before the house had of the constitution? (Renewed cries of "No, no.") Ile
been decided foe the last 150 years in one uniform trusted that he would not be interrupted by unseemly
msoner. Whoever hail read the speech of Sir Edward ; tries; when he was done he would be glad to find that he
Stemless mud be aware that the conduct of Cardinal Wise- ! would he answered. (Hear, hear.) They had hod already
man was • violation even of the letter of the law. r, ationdanee of declamation and invective - and they (on the
It was strange that no Roman catholic member of that ' ministerial benches) had been reproached in unmeasured
house had 4.4 t up and asserted that any spiritual wants of ; terms with intolerance and perseeution. In fact, had this
their wee not satisfied by the system of vicars apiwtolie. : been • bill to re-enact the penal laws, and to sup-
(Hew, hear.) The ha. and lemo' member for Ply- press the Roman catholic religion altogether, it
mouth (Mr. R. Palmer) had said that the best mode of could not have excited more unreasoning pumice than
meeting an insult was to take no 'unite of it if the insult had, as it was, been displayed. Ile called, now, to
wan not attended. But who was to tell them in be met fairly with argument; and fearlessly and firmly
this case whether the insult was intended or not. he challenged an answer to the question he had propounded.
An act hed been lately pawl' to enable them That question plainly was, had the Roman pontiff and
to carry on negotiations with Rome, but, because those by whom he had been encouraged and abetted in the
an folk-siesta: mild not he receive' as ambassador, the act recent establishment of a Roman catholic hierarchy in this '
ermined inoperative, and the court of Rome lent no per- country, acted consistently with the constitution and the
son t. this. country. Yet now, without the consent of the law: 'lie would add another question: when the religion
envenign, tie l'upe sent a person "to govern" in this of Rome was the religion of England, and when the sub-
country ; and he called the country itself " catholic" Eng- jerts of the Sovereign of England owed and paid obedience
land, a term which was peculiarly offensive and insulting to in spiritual matters to the l'ope of Rome. ae the
the people of Eneland. It was not catholic England, but hand of their church, could the pontiff of Rome
protestaut England and the United Kingdom of Great have ventured to do what he bad done on
Britain and Inland. If this was • Homan catholic country this evasion ? Undoubtedly he could not; and that
why were not the Stuarts still upon the throne -".1 was a hold man who, in this house or elsewhere, would
(Hear, hear.) The subject matter at issue, as stated stand up and reply in the affirmative to that question.
by the Pope, was that which was at issue in 1618, and he Traversing from country to country throughout Europe, ha
seemed to think that the present sovereign ought not to be quote.-1 the laws in existence in each, end drew the conclusion
on the throne. Ile felt, then, that he was tight in desig- that in none was it competent to the Pope to establish a hie-
Destine this art of tier Pope se most insulting to the people rarchy or carve out dioceses without the sanction of the state
of this country. There was a constant tendency to en- itself. Withthese elamplesfromeatholiceountries and catho- '
cooriehme id un the part of the 1.1. of Rome. (Hear, hear.) lie times, ti fortiori, the proceeding was illegal in the United 'i
In Ibleium, So Wee eland, and Serdinia, there were evident Kingdom at the present day. It was argued that this was
attempts at eneneachment. (Hear, hear.) It had been tele merely a eaatter of spiritual jurisdiction, and that the only
jetted that this was Il entail measure. It was a small mica- reason in Roman catholic countries that the up-
sure, but he dill not think that it ought therefore not to be pointment of a bishop was required to proceed
passel, (Hear, hear.) Ile had great confidence in the from the government of the sovereign, was that
noble lord at the lead of the government, and in the prin- his episcopal functions extended on some occasions into tem-
elides which he had propoundtel he (Mr. Calvert) entirely pond and civil affairs. lie clearly saw the distinction
concurred. If it should become necessary, as he dare say it between the spiritual conscience and the temporal eons
would if this tourer were persisted in, to have recourse to science of the bishop. Ile agreed that a bishop might be
futile r legislation, still he should not he sorry that they had appointed to twrforrn the spiritual functions merely of his
afforele el alo or proitentior--tliat they had given the pontiff office —as baptism, marriaee,continuatinn,onlination, and the
an opportunity of retracing his steps ; and an hon. member general admini.tmtion of the offices and sacraments of the
having spoke nof the had spirit which was being fomented, church. And if this papal rescript had been entirely confined
he must r, illy that it was the pontiff who hail been to appointing bishops for the purpose of exercising
guilty of this art of aggression who was responsible, and purely spiritual jurisdiction and authority, he could
not those who only performed their duty in resisting it. understand something of the arguments advanced
((heers.) Of all the religious leidie% in this country for by the opponents of the bill. But when, in-
whose sake it was most important that they should be firm, stead of sending a man to exercise only the spiritual
the Roman catholic body was the principal, seeing that if functions of a bishop, as in the Buse of her Majesty sending
they wore not firm, Roman catholic, would become subject a bishop to Jerusalem for the purpose of spiritual jurisdie-
to a grinding tyranny. (lies", hear.) It was most cown. bon over her subjects there—he notate' understand that this
tial that there should be as mob unanimity as possible in would be a case of a bishop without a see or diocese, whose
their deision. Thu •y might depend upon it that the num- duties would be simply of a spiritual character ;—hut would
her 39.5 had operated as a warning at the. Vatican, and he anybody say when the Pope proceeded to do a great deal
would fain PAT a still greater number in favour of the more than this, and to divide an independent realm into
second reading. (Hear, hear.) Ile thanked the house for districts and dioceses and to appoint men to sees, exercising
having listened to him with such kind attention ; and if he complete jurisdiction over them, that this was not
might, in conclusion, tender to them any advice, it would exercising territorial authority ? (No, no.) lion. members
be to stand fast in the assertion of their national intleasen- called " No, no," lustily ; hut he would turn to the rescript
dente and in the defence:of the prutestantem of the country. of the Pope, and what should he find there? lie was
(Ch. en ) reading from the translation " published by authority,"
Mr. CHARTERIS said he had been struck with the which, as he took it, meant the authority of Dr. Wiseman.
strange logical ineemsisteney of the supporters of the hill. He found that the l'ope pr seeded, by his Letter Apoetoli-
They said, e, We give our vote in favour of civil and vela. cud, first to direct the appointment or two new sees or din-
Mess liberty—we support the bill, became we' dread the ceoco in the metropolitan district, being Westminster and
establishment of a hierarchy and the intmsluction of the Southwark. Ile• then came to the northern district, where
canon law "--whereas the measure did nut touch either he found there was to he only out' episcopal see, which was
of those points. (Hear, hear.) Before they discussed to receive its name from the city of Hesham, and this dia•
the hill, either in its principle or its details, it was trict was to be bounded by the same limits as hitherto.
impertant to arrive at • clear understandine of the Then came the York district, which was to form one
nature and character of the /0-Callial papal aggression. The diocese, and the bishop to receive his title from the city of
vie e taken, both within and without the walls of parties Beverley. Next followed the Lancashire district, in which
meta, was, that then• had been en asoumption of temporal there were to be two bishops, of whom one was to take his
power on the part of the sovereign of the Roman States; title from the see of Liverpool ; having within his jurieelie.
while the noble lorel at the head of the goverment had de- tion the Isle of Man, and other places including West
eland that an insult had been offend to the eovereign of Derby ; and the other was to receive his from the city of
thew calms. If this view was accurate, it was not tee par- Salford. The Pope then, after arranging many other di.-
Element that the noble lord should hare applied ;he should tricts came into the east, aqd in the city of Northampton,
lease had recourse to the public law of }:urope. (Hear, constituted a single bishop. Now give hint leave to ask by
hear.) Dr. 'Psis. gated that there wax no position in law what authority did the l'ope of Rome or those who sup-
so completely establish' with reference to the relations of ported him elevate the towns in her Majesty's dominions
the Holy See with the euvereign 110W014 of Europe, into cities—towns which were not cities? It was well
IV that the rx,,,rontor of the crown or royal pined was known that acconling to general wage and general practice
requisite to uuthorise the publication of bulls. If this if a town or place was named as the seat of episcopal juris-
Were a part of international law, and if it had been in- diction, in which a hither exercised his function, it was
fringeel it was not the House of Commons that ought es elevated lIIMI facto to the rank of a city. Ile asked it the
have taken retroisance of the fact,but the foreign Office, and oppments of the bill would deny that proposition ? It was
he war surpriwel that the noble lord opposite (Lord Pa'- uuquesstionably as he hued staid, and the city which ens
nueston) had not adopted some summary pewees. They toyed that name did so on account 14 it being at present
had, howe ter, put the:noel-lyre octet of court by their deal- or at some poet time the see of a bishop The fact
ings with the. Pope. Other countries acknowledged the was so inherent that although the bishopric were
tempera' parer of the pontiff; this country ignored it. elieolved, the city would retain its title. Either the Pope
Ile felt tontielent that had there Morn an English milliner intended to raise these' towns into cities, or else it was coa-
st ItoMI4 they weuld not then Ise elieu.sing the question. tempi:steel that the elevation should be mromplithed by
(Hear.) But he could uot bring himself to consoler this making them the se's of bishop,, but he could not see how
act of the Pope as a temporal earl...Om ; to him it ap- it was that such a preceding did not involve territorial
petered an courtier of purely spiritual authority. jurisdiction and authority. It was alleged to be only a part
Ile was opporosl is. all legislation on this subject, therefore, of the general scheme, and was not intended on that account
for the 'ample ',amen that he believed that our civil rights to aoleuie territorial jurisdiction, or exercise temporal
and 'Owen, were in no danger. What he trusted to, in authority. But he would turn to the brief again, and we
pmr,.n.nee to all mob legislation, was the loyalty of Roman how that mutter stood, and he found that this was what the
catholic., the spread of education, the ton,equent increased Pope directed with regent to theauthorityand jurhalictionol
entightmenient of the people. and, he hoped he' might also thew bishop., and to which he prayed the attention of the
add, th into re.. el .4144rtionS of the clergy. Ahove all, he house. The hon. and learned gentleman then Mil the
truge,l. rather than to such legislation, to the Bible truth following remote. from the Letter Apastolical: " But in the
of th it poet. staid faith which they all prefer...A. A distin- %acne' government of clergy and laity, and in all other
gui.beel stateernan of a former day had said, "If comer- thing. appertaining to the pastoral ottiee "--thus making •
Mon b. popery he an evil, law is not its proper rermely ; and clear elroinetion between the spiritual and temporal go-
if proselytism esists, it is a dintrace only to the clergyman vernment of clergy and laity—" the archbishops and bishops
lie whore parish it tacos olace." A distinguished statesman of of England will he.neeforward enjoy all the rights and
our own day had said, during this debate, that he 'nuked (treaties which the other eatheaie archbishop, and bishops
/pointy for a ii, fe me against papal aggression to the deep of other nations, according to the common ordinance' at
attact• 'set te their protestant religion, both among church- the sacred canons and apnatelie constitutions, AM! and nay'
corn and dos. titers, which had ever distinguished the use." Now, he would ask the difference intended to be
people of tie. country. Ile was awan• of the ton- established between the archbishops and bishop, in Eng-
troy opine .... . prevalent in that house; and with land and other countries, and whether territorial rights and
such opinions he Was :ontious to deal with all respect. authority did not follow spiritual functions in other coon-
But lee Iseult' oppose a hill like this, which, tries. In those countries where Roman catholic bishops
harmless in some results, was most mischievous exercied authority they wielded powers not mertlyneiritual
in eaters. um' se hide. at any rate, wet in appertain(' a hut operating in all functions attached to the pastoral office.
fiat .to p nine:no-tee [mted. the era' of intolerance. At Now, all those power. were intended to be extended by this
the same tom. heweser. hr W. 414141 eonfew. in deference to reeeript to all the Roman estholic archhiehop, end bishops
the fes line.. streng. genuine, and emphatically cernroool, in England. The Popes said in that instrument that these
w hie tu pre, tile el out of doers, that ht• was not prepared to new arehbishops and bishops would la. "equally bound by
W`" ley *Whom a murmur the arrogant and prtountistuout the obligations which bind the other arehhishoops and
end insole to tom of the paled rescript. (Loud cheer%) hishops according to the common discipline of the
Levolatoosi Sc'. ..nr. thing; a declaration was a very dale- catholic church," and then the merlin went on
rent thing ; and a &duration being all that he Ills:4111rd as. thus :—" And whatever regulations, either in the an
e. wiry, he bad collie to the conclusion that it *mall be tient system of the Anglican churches or in the sub-
taking a Si', tourse to paw such oroolutiens in referettee to oequent missionary wane may have been in Mere
the insult sacred to the country, as lead teen props' ley a either by epecial coustitutione or privileges, or peculiar cues
matte kord in another plate. Cmicurrently he would desire to toms, will now henceforth carry no right new obligation ;
see lecislatiem. but legislation of a character very different and in order that no doubt may remain on the point, we,
from that at present tweed On the house. Ile wished to we by the plenitude of our apostethe authority, repeal and ab-
an end put to the alourclity of ignoring the Pope as a tem- negate all power whatsoever of imposing aligution or com-
pered osvereign. lle caniently desired to see. un English (erring right in those peculiar tonstitutione and pris avec% of
minister sent to watch ewer English interests at the court of whatever kind they may be, and iu all customs by %homer
limn, Ile would la• glad to see an alteration in our laws ever or at whatsoever ancient or immemorial time brought
of mortmain, in order that a e might obtain a better control in. Hence it will fur the future be solely competent
user the itecuninlatien of endowment* for religious par- for the arehbiethop, and bishops of England to distinguish
psow. Ile would Is• glad to see the state (as we under- whit things he lotte to the executive of the common cycle- I
stod ! invested with the lower of vititation over munasterim siastical law, and what according to the common discipline !
and nunneries. And in thew modes only was there .4 the church is entrusted to the authority of the bishops."
any esseability of emtnellieset that canonic toleration Now he would ask was there not something in all this be-
which we were bind tee concede to our Roman yon' the spiritual functions of the bishops ? (Mar.) And
catholic fellowantejeen. What he objected to in what was the power enjoyed by those' bishops of the Roman
re
the hill before the honor WAS this• that, with an catholic church ? They always acquired a civil stator with
insolent pretenee, it practically did nothing. The hou. their spiritual function.. Suppose one of them instituted
gestleman renewal his seat amid much cheering.) to the cure of souls or the exercise of his functions in a
The SOLICITOR-6 EN Ell AL row and said that he chureh or chapel. to which emolument was annexed, and he,
would endeavour to deal with this queetion disstionately. was entitled to enjoy those advantages; if anyone attempted
In the first place. he would state the position assumed by to deprive him of them his civil status and nghts were such'
the opponents of the bill. There Isere one set of argu- that the courts of law in this country would support and
meat. urged by those who took what might he called the protect him in the possession of them. (Hear, hear) The
!Leeman catholic view of the controserey, and the pith and same doctrine would apply from the beginning to the case
sulotanee of their reasoning might bl• stated thus : an es- of 'lonian catholic clergyman. Here was an archbishop or
.ablished and on:tinned hieranhy, they say, is manilla' to a bishop who had vested in him by this
,papal brief all
the interests of our religion ; we are therefore entitled to right and prerevgatives incident to his authority, giving him
have such on retablithed organisation. We can obtain that power to suspend or depose a priest. Here was a bull
cstablithel and organised hierarchy from the Roman pent atcrodueed. Say a new bishop established Amster the brief
tilt shone: ire art then•fore juetilicel in having re- deposed a priest according to his function, there would be
course to the I'm* for the purpose of obtain- p•radventure a mutt of law brought into conflict with
ing that bierarehy : and the Pope is entitled to grant us episcopal jurisdiction established by a bull unquestionably
that hieranhy, and to do all that is necessary for the pun- illegal. In SO far as the bishop derived his authority from
pose of establishing it. Nuw, that the conclusions arrived this rescript of the l'ope, the authority wan not only
at from these premises were ruling fallacies, he would pre- spiritual, but was a quasi civil and temporal jurisdiction.
eently show. First, he would add to this summary the It wes something beyond spiritual• and extended over
anbetanee of the arguirienm of thaw members of the pro- civil rights and liberties, and he contended that such
Intent community who were not loss strenuously opposed powers should not be granted to any man except
to an leaoslation on this subject. They said: "100 have, by the law of the land. It was an authority
by the Whole 0.111,44 of your legi.lathnt in recent times, which could only emanate from the sovereign or legiela-
eaneedeel to the Roman catholics the right to a full. free, ture• of a country (Hear, hear.) But when he was told
unrestricted esenise and enjoyment of their religion. Now, that the Roman catholic% could obtain their hierarchy by
an estahltdied hierarchy is essential to such exereiee and no other means than through the supreme pontiff, he (the
enjoyment, and therefore you are hound to complete Solicitor General) did not feel on that account that if the
the work you have commenced. and to grant laws of the land would not permit it they were to be
to them the establishment of that hierarchy."flese were trample.' upon and violated. (Ilear, hear.) But the
the complete megawatt. of the two sections of the oppo- ease was nut so, and there were acts of the see of
rents of the bill ; and, aecording to his view, it was impure- Rome itself to show that the authority they re-
tilde to reflect. for a moment, on these' two proponnons milted might be had without this proceeding. What
without deteerting the unormeme fallacies which they con- had taken plan. in other parts of Europe ? In all, '
taiurd. The comment on these propositions was this : that excepting one, bishopric% were established by arrangement
the end choired tet he accomplished might be reametable and between the sovereign and the Pope. It was said that
just. but that the means adopted were not necessarily same- bishopric, could only be established by the acts of the see
titled and made legitimate by that end. Ile would lof Rome, and that such a hierarchy as they required.
assume. for the *eke of the argument. and only for the I could only be establoished by the see of Rome.
in But as the !
sake of the argument, that the territorial ornaniation 4 see fon
had btained on all occasions, thefirst
of a hierarchy W.V. essential to the religions interests rinstance, the consent of the reigning sovereigns
of her Majesty's Roman catholic subjects. and that the see ; for the ntablishment of a hiernrehy, what was there to I
of Rome was the only quart r through which that ontani- ' prevent the Pope from the establishment of a hierarchy on
eat' could be ett'ecteol. But did it follow, therefore, look- i the tame tenses here ? If the catholic* hail any grievance
ing tee the law as it now stood, that the means noorted to :to eomplain of, was there anything to prevent an house
f the athointnent of this object were not illegal and un- r from them to the legislature, or from coming to that house
constitutional, a .iodation of our municipal and erelessias. 1 fix any alteration in the law, in order to phew them in the
position they desired ? (neer, heir.) 'lhere was nothing
tical Isle, a sioletion of the law of Europe, an invasion of
• to prevent the establishment of diplomatic relations with
the Muse nizntr of the state, and an outrage on the national
Ind 151.111.1eV! Were they to toe told that the governru..nt the court of Rome for that purpow, if they were entitled to
and ',wham. nt ef this country, whose bounden duty it it, fur the protection and advantage of thew religion, if they
could obtain it by legal, by constitutional, and by autho-
was to preen: the- sovereignty of these realms inviolate,
and to maintain the national independence and the rind mesns, and not by eneneactunent upon the rights aud
prerogatives of the sovereign of these realms. (Hear, hear.)
0 nulltry'. hennur untarnished, were to see these great things 1 ,
outraged ;ma insaaaa, 1,,,5a„., ea...oath, some maions Under any eircurastanceo, it seemed to he eonfeesed on all
might think one else, of the,
people would be better band. that the Roman ratholies, if they wished the tota-
-1
governed hy arelthishotlS and bishop, than by vicars epos- blithment of a hierarchy, had not taken the right coarse.
*ere ' lie, for ow. would nicer CODerlte 10 monstrous •. it had been said," Oh, but the Pope has done no more now
preposition. The advoratee of Me Roman catholic side o( th he has been doing for some few centuries hack by mean.
‘je3fll apostolic. Ile (the Solicitor-Genera) alto-
the gutstion, bail, it seemed to him, omitted one int- of this
'extant comb', ration in this di,cussion, and he proposed gether denied that proposition. _ Thec vicars apostolic bad
now to ask a erecial answer to • particular quevtion. no sees ; they had n t dioceses. Th nears apostolic were
Ilad the Ilmain pontiff by the course he had taken in par- , not authorised to enforce a law forcipes to the law us Eng-
no power to introduce the canon law.
titionine this palm of England into provinees and dioceses, ' land. They had
and estalea thing seines-hop,, and hie-hope, and an organised I They had nothing but the sample nrini, hear.) Then it
jurisdiction of
blersolry for the government the roof, and establishing rite* I ordinary ministers of religion. (ea
fee el.' 1.. rt.:,, Of the jarisslietion en these arehinee'top. and : had been Said that the requirements of the Roman catholic
lws:nsio, tlweviu ins ad..l the pre meat:, eof the crown. ,1,14 •re Itaion rendered the hstrad,uction of a hierarchy requisite.
ULU, .i.. lOw led, a mien, of the country.? ((tries Of .. No, TI ey had nu proofs advanci.d in favour of this. The Roman
W..") Further, lead theme of her Mapaty's eubjeets wl:e . catholic:clergy, who, according to the knowledge of theta