The Express.
London, England, 1848-09-12 00:00:00

SURPLUSAGE OF OFFICERS IN 111 E ROYAL

NAVY.
The following extract from the evidence given by
the Right Hon. Sif-ney Herbert, to the committee on navy,
army, and ordnance estimates, on the 10th of July last, is
important and interesting, and will be found to have • strong
bearing on the argument la the second leader of our pooh-
alio& of this day
Mr. Corry. —I believe that theplan of retirement alopted in
1646 was the same in principle, though differing in details, as
that proposed by yourself when you were Secretary to the Ad-
miralty ? It was.—ln your opinion, has the government ob-
tained that advantage from the plea which you anticipated
front it ? Yes; sky expectations of it were very moderate.
The evil was • very crying onej and from the extreme age
which out flag •fficen had attained, my expectation
wee that it would have no effect for seven or eight
Imam It has, however had • much more rapid
effect. I find, on looking at the Navy List, that
there are now within three peen of their Bag, supposing the
' mortality upon the lit to continae as at present, several
°Meer* who are young ow, and some of the very best
officers in the service. There are the Captains Martin, the
eldest of them being but 46 ; Captain Dundee is 46, Captain
Seymour is 45, and Sir Henry blackwoud is 46. There are
revers' young officers who have bees moved on about ten
years, in fact, through the operation of that system of retire.
sent.—How did Captain Martin stead moon the list before
the retirement, and how does ke stand upon tie list at
presmt ? He was 280 from the top of the I.st ; he is now J
87. But in dismissing the subject of retirement, I would
also beg ken tomy that I adopted the present my stem be 1
j cause I found that the feeling in the prelessew and in the
House of Commons was so strong against that which would
be the legitimate and the proper way of remedying the evil,
in my opinion, which was the selection for • beg, under
some restrhtion, that we were forted to adopt that se the
only alternative.—The effect you think has tees, without
having mousse to the compulawy removal of of i.ors from,
the flag lit, and by means 01 a voluntary retirement, to
advance those young °Shwa, and other offloers in the same
proportion ten years nester the flag than they would
otherwise have been T—Yes ; and ultimately the retirement
will effect a saving, bemuse at times there were diminu-
tions made Ia the way of limitations of the number in the
different ranks, and although there may have been an ex-
pense at first, yet I think la ten years from the time that the
retirentriat was aeespted the expense will have disappeared,
and a saving will have eeeemesessi, but at the moment it
was • heavy expense.—ls not it prebable looking to the
lot rate tf mortality in the Sag list, that Cepa Martin
will be an admiral is three years ? Yes ; that would bring
him to the age at which L and Hews was mode an admiral ;
Lord Nelson was an listened younger still. It would be
more I:kc the age of our admirals during the war.
Chairman.—Did you =Wider the maiden of the navy
when you were at the Adiniraity, in reference to
the sge of the °Morn ? Yee, I turned my
attention • good deal to it.—With • view of ren-
d ring the service more effective, and at the same time Se-
ducing toe dead weight of the navy, do you think it wou'd
be advisable that there should be • limitation of the number
of enuie• is the fist instep.* ? Most certainly one of the
raidortuse a of the navy has been, I think, • went of finite-
uon or at least • want of system. Hoards at Admiralty have
acted on, after the other with very little thetem in retertoce
to whet I as been brought before them. When Lord Minto
was First Lsrd of the Admiralty, he rained very much the
ebb, M navel cadets ; perhaps it was carried too tar, an., the
result was, that there ewe great complaints tram all ships
that they could not carry on the service. I think our board
went 1..t0 the opposite extreme, and admitted too many. As
our ships are now °Mei red, compared with the army, you
will hod y. nag men totradwad at the bottom in such hum-
b•re th A these is no possibility of observing them afterwards
for the rupees of i mplopnent and promotion. It you
take a regiment of 1,000 men and a line-of battle chip of
1,000 men, the nisenber ot superfAr officers titu,K much the
name, the ~umber s f ,oneltess e filter in the ship is about
eight more than in the r. glossae, Item the great number of
midshipmen and naval cadela.—Do you town ti.at it
would he advi•able, fur the purpose of obtaining
an rffeciies hooey of iffioirs, that there should be • further
list of r, tired end effective of cers created, as there was in
former timer ? It is • matter wench, I think, looks more
important than it is ; it is more • matter of tag; than any-
ibiog . I-e. The men witi be thews whether put them
upon the one hat or the other. In Facia our e ff.cave list
ahout I,io, and there me about 40 nuts, ffective admiral*,
be) are 11. a-effective, however, only by prec.iee; there is
nothing to oweioeleiy shwa 170111111ornee; they are. very ohm
y,,uuser than in. tires:dive admirals. Their only aoqualin- '
cation, which is a very sampan dipisalificatiou with .1 oar
them, is, that Irate the copulae list being se large,
I they are hot kept In easploymeat.
Mr tlusue.—Woy is that rule continued which prevents
j the promotion of any aloe, %alas he ha- served
• tenant number of years in a lice-of. barle ship
if it is lowed to be prejudscisl ? I do not cry thzx it
is prejudi.iai ; it is to be regretted that th. re should
be so mee y, even of those who are not disquadtivii, WOO
hare had se Ma. service. It you .ems to a man who
has not commanded • ship at W, ha man obv.ously be salt

emantand when he hemmer a floc akar; but a man
may have jai commanded his ma years during the
thirty-five years he has been a captain, and if that be very
far beck when be comes to his leg he has no fresh experience.
—How are those men sedated ? The Admiralty select those
wham they think will be not it possible tor the
Admiralty by that means to select men for promotion who
have but small claims on the ground of service, and to Have
out ma whose previous service would give them claim for
No ; there is no limitation to the power of so-
rei7tror'iluthe lower ranks, but there is no selection whatever
fa the upper noisier the nay.—There is a selection of those
who are to command Hoe of-battle ships ? Certainly.—
Does not that operate meths.& these who may net pores.
immediate inter at at the Admiralty ? That depends upon
what is meant by the word " interest." I think you will
generally speaking, that the selections made of of to
command ships are very load Indeed in referee°, to the service.
Yon will nod that generally the man are selected foe the
best Looking, for instance, to the list which I read jest
now, the young men at the top of the list, I think all officers
would tell you, are among the best men there are in the
service/ and I tblak you will lied that morn el them us so.
=llly In empl•iment, or have been very lately.—ls not
there a risk of keels% outs number, who, from thiir pre
viuus make ought to be e . played? Undoubtedly. Oar
halt-pay list is ro large, that if you were .o commission every
ship in the navy you would leave out some dearth= men.—
Is not that list made large by promoting more officers than
you want? Yes, by admitting So matey info the service at
the kWh., that you ore obliged to promote a treater number
afterwards teas are necereary for the public *invite.—
What suggestion would yea offer to_prevent the continuation
of that gnat excess of ~fingers? The suggestion I would
make fs this—ot course, as • civilian, I must speak with great
deference en the 'entice, but I should say, from what naval
officers have told me, that it would be possible so to officer
the stops as to diminish the number of subaltern officers, and
to de part of the work which is now performed by them by
the creation of a superior class of warrant officers,
who would take some of their duty.—Are you
ewers that there is no other service is the country
in which there are so many half-pay officers la proportion as
there are in the navy ? The nisuilier of commissioned
officers in the wavy ss 3,948; in the army it is 10,693.
Wbat number of those are employed ? In the army
the number is 6,277, leaving about 4,000 unemployed.
—What number are employed in the navy ? Ido not know
the number actually afloat.
Sir J. Grab on.—You have been Secretary at War as well
al Secretary to the Admiralty ? t have.—You have had,
therefore =opportunity of tempering the suite of the half-
. y and therefor,
non-effective lists of the two services ? Yee.—
Chat is the view yon take of the comparative efficiency in
ear of need of three two baltpay lists, the nay half pay
het and the army half-pay list? They stood upon perfectly
different grounds; the system of promotion in the army is
entirely upon the effective list. No promotioa can take place
=less there Is a use tney la the regiment ; but in the navy
the ships are paid off, and there being no permanent biros
employed, the men are promoted from one reek en ILA-pay
to a higher lank on haltpay. Then %aim, I must say in re-
spect to the army, the amount of promotion is very much
larger is the army, though the reductions in the dead weight
have been greater. The army theme las main. ain
an enormous retirement out of their own pocket by tee
system of purchase. Oid men ate bou4ht out by young
men, end there is a constant stream going through
the army which has prevented their ruffering from the evils
which afflict the navy.—ls there anything in the army which
is in constant operation, in addition to the brevet promotions,
similar to the rule of one in three in the navy t Yes, the
men ore promoted on the rule of one in three, but there is
this difference to begin wish : in the army the three man-
dee are three death vacancies, and three death nand, s
only; but in the navy, practically, it is somethiug
very muck like one is two, because not only one death is
coasted as causing a vacancy, but the promotion of
some one else to • superior rasa. 1, 27 post-aptains die
nine commanders an made captains, and for the nine cm-
menders who are made captains three lieutenauts would be
made commanders, and fur the three lieutenants made am-
maniere one mate would be mad* a lieutenant—The rule
in the army of there being no counting of vacancies except
by death is strictly one in Ora, bat the rule in the navy,
which is nominally one in three, is mach MAO approaching
to a mile of one in two ? It is very nearly one in two.—
' You have stated that you us aware that by the retired
het, as now established, 160 admirals have been St. d so
the number permanently to be kept up ? Yes.—And
you have said that 40 of those are inefficient? They
I ate non-effective ; they are no awe inefficient, very
I often, than those on the active list. They are throes
officers who, no: having served six years in a line-
' of-battle ship, are not eligible according to the males.—
one
Whenever of thosel , whether nominally effective or
nominally yellow, or Ineffective, dies. under the present rule
a post-captain ls promoted ? Yee.—Do you think, with re-
&rotes to the present state of the service, considering that
at the beginning of the war in 1792 there were not 60 ad-
mirals, it can be right to keep up, as • permanent establish.
seat 160 admirals, when this inefficient portion shall nave
dial off ? I think if you could somata the two lots *gain
you amid effect • better system. By keeping up the
admirals' list to 100, and letting the others go off
Ito the retired list, you might have a better eye.
tem of promotion than by indiscriminately putting active
men into vacancies is the inactive liat—Yon put 1110 active
I and efficient man on the list, upon the death of an inefficient
admiral? Yes.—Do you think that a reasonable arrange-
ment ? No L no not —Do you think that some such arrange-
ment as this would be reasonable, that the number should
be reamed gradually, from 160 say to 100, by way of
illustratioa, and teat instead of promotion taking place as
now upon the death of every =aural, the rule 01 one in
three should be continued to the admirals' list, and that
1 there should be only one promotion from the post-
captains' list upon the death of three admirals till it
was reduced to a loose number ? That I think
would be a fair arrangement, and would give about
the same force of • flaunt admirals as at present.
In order to give efficien ty to the order in council lately
pasted, which resumes to the crown the right of selection,
not by seniority, what would you say to the adoption of this
rule, that upon every three promotions the crown should
select one, and that the two others should obtain promotion
by seniority ? I have always been a great advocate for that
system, which existed formerly. I have always thought that
comparing the French system and ours, theirs was the more
rational system. They take by a seniority in the lower
ranks, when in time el pease men having but little opportu-
nity of distinguisuing themselves they cannot know much
about them ,• but whom sea hr pasted through all the
grades, sad hia professional sierwster is thoroughly 'stab-
eid, they then use selsesion, and take the beet men only
to promotion to the flag. We femme that—we select men
when we know very little about them, and take them by se-
niority when ire know the difference between them. But I
am bound to say that, ir. ay experience at the
Admiralty, I have hardly ever found naval offii
An
to have agreed with me la that opinion.—
Considering the feeling of the profession, would you think
it unressocable that • reduction of promotion by seniority
from the amine' list to the admir list should take place
is the proportion which I have mentioned, that two should
still retain their sight of promotion by seniority, end that
the crown should exercise • power el pr motion to the ex-1
tent oleos In three ? I think It would very greedy =crow
the efficiency of the 'swim—And coupled with the re-
ducible of toe list to 100, it would be • saving to the public ?
I do not know that it would be a saving, Weans, those
yellow admirals must exist somewhere.—You keep the
retired list open to them to go on ? I depot think, than-
Malty considered, it would make much diffeeenee. With re-
armee to the efficient admirals' lot, it would nuke that
story efficient.
. - _

kr.ll;U;.—Were you at the Admiralty when the lea
establishment of the edm.rals' list took pace? Yee;
wee then during all the dieetwaions upon the enbieot.—
Oa what principle we that establishment formed ? We
looked beek at the number of admirals who bad been main.
tamed el different periods. Up to a late period in the last
century the number had beta mush_ lam it grew up daring
the war to 240. Of lets pan we Saud it had been about
170, and we took 20 leas team that.—Upon ?lain We lOW
blishasent wee no attectiou paid to the number of admirals
likely to be employed ? Yee ; mad tat of which list persons
wouldbe nista by seniority, wahout reference to qualifica-
tion or to physical ability, Wag very old men ; tut the list
se arranged would probably give us • number fit fer employ-
meat upon the different etatiose.—What was the number
ia usual employment at that time? I forget the
nut number.— Were the promotions made with reference
to the number likely to be wasted, or were they mule be-
cause in former times a certain number having been kept in
the tialtpay list, you thought it right to continue that Lum-
ber? It was made with • view to have &list which would be
likely to yiel.l a sufficient number of effective men for the
waits of the service at the different stations. We were not
guided alone by the number which bad been maintained of
ia:e years, because we reduced the number. Ido trA think
the» was at any time so few as 150 Una the y ~ar 1800 nil.

air J. Graharns—lf you were told that in the yc,..c 1795
there wire only 114 admirals, licluding 27 retired admirals,
would you think that 100 wee an unreasonably small number
now I It mug h tetullected that ►t that time the whole
number of officers in the navy was much less, and of count.-
It bore a proporion to the other tanks, but I quite agree that
100 effective admirals would be amply sufficient.
Mr. Corry.—lf the principle of the promot on of one cap-
tain to a fl it on every three TlCalltiPS were to be had venom.
to tic the dig hot was reduced to 100 would not that in the
intermedi►te tim, cause such a stagnation upon promotions
from the cap- sins' list as to neutralise the effects of the retire-
ment? Idunotthinkto. All which is proposed hat the 'the
tire admirals' jut, which is now 160, should Income 100, anu
that tee relied stenirels should go upon the retired in.
stead of the effective list. If you moved the non effective
off the list now, tea 'unmake would pro tice three ao
pointmente.—Your newer bad reiterence to the removal
of the non-effective admiral. bo are now upon the asset
de to the retir. d Vet ? Yas.-1f that removal did not take
place would not the redaction of pr-motion to the rule of
One appointment for every three vseanciee hare the effect I
have referred to ? To a certain *meat it would.

- -
Mr Hanto—Do you not nominee that in time of race
to be mating throe large promotions et superior officers
adding to be espenes of the country unnecessarily ? It de
prom entirely upou how many men you have efficient. It
you have got a list of lOU men tho greater proportion to
whim me upwards of 70 years of , it lunar the field fro'.
°hien you as riser yoar turn very much indeed.—Boa
can it serve the pianist° wake admirals ut them if they are
fur service T I gal.+ ages. with that; but, uatortu•
natal. hitherto We ha'. not bad the peer or selection. W.
have or. a Mead to take then by minority —H s not the
Adegtrally had the power of mai. g bat arrangement•
they might think ►rat for the publ'e lattOlt I Tne Admi-
ralty, a gnat many years ago, wee beaten out of that. I
very If Loud La Admiralty would be very glad to re-
sume the poe r it they were muliciently banked by public
opinion to enable them to do so.—Yon think al

vision ei Me rate oh& to Mks plUmes to that
respect ? I think so.—Hare you any return of
the number of entries of cadets into the semis. ?
I hare—ls the amber 226 in the year 1848 bandedl
upon any minute of the Admiralty, or on what is It
founded ? The fret was, that till that period ths ships were'
all under their establishment: a (treat many ships were
fitted out that year.—Do you consider that the number 174
admitted in 1847 is more than the swam. an absorb ? I
think certainly more.