The Express.
London, England, 1862-04-01 00:00:00

THE EIPItESS, TUESDAY. EVENINI

bra neeerly te. be her up at • very heavy
east, and wadi he sealed be bar fora certainty what
the add emanative el likesEttl- would be. (Hear.
The objeders to the genesel of ids s*e
hale this—that thee omM net small vessels for forage
weir because of their ha. the oily remedy for that,
mii re eheaper in the ad, mil be to reastruct graving
desks at our trip Mar, sad the erase of these would
be small compared with the oast of bringing ships home for
repair, Si it was now nessesary so do whenever an accident,
however slight, ooeureed. He was hese oat in this opinion
by Admiral Robinson, the Ceeptrollsr of the Navy, who
said ia his evidence last year, "(deem, good gravingdocka,
ad sea ship will do the work of two." Until they adopted
some ykon el this kited with regard to ships on foretell
deism il our impossible that our steam navy could be
bet hem Arai state. He hoped after what had taken
yam In Ameba that the government would be induced to
bra *dr ofilation more seriously to the matter, and that
they SPOOK pew before they proceeded further in building
abler dead small wooden vessels which would be utterly
Mideesand unable to cope with such vessels as they might
mutes foreign shores.
Yea. GREGORY said it appeared to him that the events
Ha bed recently taken place in America would create an
mike rewebitiou in the art of naval warfare. What
was the use of spending money upon the fortifications at
Alderney, when a battery could be brought from Cher-
bourg, walk into the harbour, and knock every one of the
rips there into Inciter matches ? Cherbourg was a nota-
ble ample of the absurdity of these fortifications,
for mar could edema) within 400 yards, and shell every
Ship under its protection. He most sincerely trusted that
her Majesty's government would consider this most tre.
meadous subject, and accommodate themselves to the ideas
el the present day. Do not let them go like pottering old
sniffling after the traditions of Blake and Benbow,
tletthem derive experience from the sigefiltant fact;
that had occurred in the James River. They would
la able then to provide for the security of the country, and
diminish her naval expenditure, while they furnished • line
of defence which the whole of the powers of Europe would
be unable to break through.
Sir J. HAY said that whim the defame comminiee
pm their report he was of crake that the farts
to be built at Spatter were absolutely . Tar e,
opinion had been changing from day to day, and he was sow
confident that however aserary then farts might be It
would be much more for the
_wed of the wary 11 the
lacer wen spat upon SIM& Ci the new dr error
(Her, hear.) He was mariner that vessels could be reeds
as roes r the forte, and moveable forts moat be Mil
more valuable a• instruments of war than fixed fortifier
tires. (Hem hoar.)
Mr. G. DUFF did not think it bad been clearly shown
that land bathers would be of me re in future navel war-
fare. Ile therdere biped lia prornuituit would corral
the were at Patiumath. when Will water was so raw
beam
at time thst MINI, aura _ pea sot bed.
he leavened that IMAdislialy wpm* isamid be He lest be
take advantage of sew lavettimis, ma that they allead
thnosebres to be onteletprei Vold, who bad sew
staled Ls Grin bebop the s ems:dais%
ad byre Assmiseee, who led thMontitor. although
the Admiralty were rower Osrat _Osies's invention.
L A. YLNE.TEMPIIII' simmtedi that the Mariam
as ealy intended for river wades, sal east she ail IBA
Ike le • ass. The Nair_ areal is be Me te meet a
sent ens Theeprohes few was one of grad lin
ewe be hoped lie semeramest would take it into geritroci:
ellsratioe.
Sir G. LEWIS said two questions had bee shed
daring the debate—or by the honourable eirember
tar Chatham sad a much wider are by the lhansmalik
samba for G.lway—namely, whether, in omapaes
of the ISMS semoseseet in Antrim we should alter
the while dieslifs owl structure of our naval de-
faces, sod Weed et weed= ship had sorry but ire
use IL Thseesawe bee. member ecrt /hid Ohio would hod to
min the • the Ohs sew ; but
be veatneed to =rem solho et
,hoded se tagmtimm,
ulibel owe mid esyslehashille the Odle Wotwo
ser areemnb wail hod not to a hminatka
bat to ea towseeldi yobbo expswilme—thea,
ta irk rift Is Ito strahro as a
gam rat led to shear ed at arunieests cs • great
=IL Sall at leant hod Ilea the result boseslaiwr It
algid be easemary, in consersale of the nerd
=W sage a pest shoe. le the who el as=
Oa th•Vbe wee wino so
sheep
cf
mull be made wilier a Gary •
public money. (Him bre.) h Wier sot
to enter into that 11 Llamssi dm, wizionsods•
affecting the navy ineten. Ii the Woe be et
opinion that this rawhides was to boalholed, Ye thevild
Ift would be the duty of N. nab triad near
him to propose a rapplemalw By arab el same
10,000,0001. or 15,000,0001. ilateleb4— ler that
would be the practical malt .1 re revolution
which the has. member for Oder sketched out in hie
speech. Meer, bear.) The question of the ha. member
for Chatham wen identical with one keu6t under the
notice of theDefeam Ommaiedne by the late Led Harbert,
on the 18th d Febreery, 1861. and *pea which that coed
mission made ea darn* or at all orate a careful re-
port. The report amounted to this, that the bed plea of
defence was wee which would ambles the system of forts
with iroa-need weeks, sod they came to that conclusioa
with the knowledge of the value el keereased vessels. It
wee true the recent eagaseneet bad sot the bees fought,
and it was rid that by- that ails so much light had been
thrown on the pro stir of hearer vessels that it
pared to • revolution in the mode of naval warfare.
He did not pretend to speak with authority on the
;Zed, He derived his information from those who had
eronelly and technically studied the question, and the
information he reeved led him to believe that in the *-
aka of the wet experienced persons this action threw
little light oa the qualities of iron-amid vessels. (Hear.)
He would state what he bad ma with hie own eyse: He
had seen a model ef the tide of the Warrior made the sub-
ject of experimernt by heavy ordnance at • moderate dis-
tance at Shoeberynese with scarcely any effect produced on
the iron plate. That was as complete a test as could be
afforded of the resistants, of iron-clad reek With regard
Ito the Merrimac, as stated by the noble bed opposite, the
was cot a orgoing ship. The Monitor might possibly go
some distance at sea, bet the Minima@ was not • ship that
could be expestedto cross the Atlantis. The problem they bad
to consider wiethirs—How they could resist troweled vessels
attacking their wed. It MS obvious that media veers
would be at a peat disadvantage, whilst iron reeds would
fry be on an equality ; and the question our whether
form with the improveateata making in artillery, could be
malt to mile& the advantage over floating streams
widdaem=ema (Hear, hew.) It was an axiom
that were inferior to land batteries. Hi
limt line effect of the recent experiment with
111-am' mese would only be to stimulate the invention
and inseulty of persons skilled in artillery to produce •
pieced ordnance strung enough to smash the sides at
them Iron-eased ship ; sod they hoped they might
soon be able to produce that result. (Laughter.)
The engineer would consider it • triumph of his art if he
could produce are which these ships would not be able to
resist, and he brewed there was nothing unreasonable in the
adeniedend tbstedesetbsexpectationdeminentengimera
on this sabler Then wa every reason, therefore, in mem-
ing that the sentergialed revolution in the nude of con-
dudes samineeibee mould not be lad, but that the per
seat pespedisa beareen beating batteries and fixed bat.
torte mid be restablhhol. The hoer member for Birk-
enhenliesieed to a new invades, sad read a letter which
be had sewed from New York es the subject, which
showed tbst the ingpsell(es be Pr G. Lewis) made was
not mid le litiementel. We War said, "The ac-
cess of the Odra ra ben trued oar government to try
the expire's* en • scale still larger ; they are making
&Winds heel whisk will throw shot at I,ooolln. weight,
whisk willamhintherdies of any korplated ship, no matter
what may lo the Mimeos of He refer (Hear.) At the I
NM NMI be admitted that the pessaseent should be
hided* the advise of Nisei& ma He did not think
buy sherd weir iateseselby dome d system on an envoi.
sees et • few doe. bat Ow sevasessat would give every
einelMehe te Se Mini.
IL 111Wiairr spool weiLle right hon. pis.
fineerniurzweothieg should be termed as having
bee concluded by what had taken place in
the Jaws , but the probability WY that some-
Map MI bees seacluded, and it did not require any man
tehe •groat earl authority to see that it was of sufficient
impeetaaos to melts them dill on the government to suspend
webs which bed cent hundreds of thousands, and would
eel millions if they were to carry out the works which had
hem spoken of two years ago. He knew that some persons
seemed that no one was the poorer fur all the money which
our rimed into the Exchequer, but somebody worked for
the cowry-lbeer, hear)—somebody had less of comforts,
gemelieb sweated for it, and somebody paid it grudgingly.
Men, hear.) If that were so, he did not think
the meet determined spendthrift in the house would say
that it wee mammary to spend money on these works
which might prove to be wholly useless (Hear, hear.)
Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Who so dim up-
braided the house with its profligate expeaditure, might
the proposition Mita boa. member for Chatham.
He heard that the mar slims of the year were mach
Saidzie
Ire unfavourable hoes may aed them to bo ;
but ;edging from the eltio Hearth` ater,
it was probable tutee MIS II es eh in
the next return, ad waft them
would know si. boom II we , no bsaiiar and so
much in shwas COM% eale
ists% Mies II Wia
borne in taws, the ism dr
of their suffeeleye—eufferinge At zee harts m=sol
their owe—the Me metal de be ell to
extract ham *es mosey for
tripmrStlitt MAO
authority hlie hese sod in MB wish 4 ilib•
joct r bah and isimet seesder Ciediso-vteld thew
sedkir
not le be swim* ewo) dad* lli oh sa err
in an Unit Way ask the
iiss.7ll IDA.
ndt &mem ,to , tem tar&
the ss* in
sir* borinite erre tha=iseitra'r_
Raw«. this subjeorlom the Ardis WllbehlOwllla He
bird with ti==ser lir fieleirraellne mil
MPM 64 sod
a pima 111111115=o he
them to jatifoi
, lists floOlistameillitthed ' We se raddy voted, be
to
were to se the government to
expedase4the per
S. lam it be, 1 i: money to the
yealllAismreenntry. osr,
Staid the ar uppared to him to

APRIL

be this—what was the use of having solid fortifications built
in the irate ,r when they could have solid fortilicatioos equally
strong in the shape of eon vessels which would more when
they wanted them to do so. (Hess, Mar.) Two years ago
nosily Loa. members totuil fur these defence forts, but in-
vestigation bad since shown it sae an absurd mistake,and he
therefore trusted the right bon. gentleman the Secretary at
War would reconsider the subject.
Mr. B. OaDriltNE said he was in lives, after the nume-
rous conversions they had heard of against the necessity
for building these forts, that they would also have heard
of the conversion of her Majesty's government, but he had
been vary much disappointed with the speech of his right
hon. friend the Secretary at War. He was glad the
present discussion had arisen, but it would be timeless,
unless the house insisted on her Majesty's government not
uprading another shilling on these forts until they were
in a position to know that the forts would be able to
hold their own if the monsters of the deep attacked
them. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J.
had L\
very mach wished the govern-
ment had held out the hope far more than the rpeeth
of the right hoe gentleman had done, that they. were dis-
posed at all events to pause, and consider anxiously what
the real tendency of this intelligence from America was,
before they persevered in the present system of fortifi-
mama.
Lord C. PAGET only wished the house to consider this,
I that the various duties of the navy of England could not be
' performed solely by iron-cased ships, and when the govern•
ment were told they must give up building wooden ships for
I distant service he maintained the time had not yet, at all
events, come to do so. With regard to this quern= of the
forts at Spithead. the house knew very well that all
naval men preferred ships to forts; but It must be
remembered that it we were to leave Spithead entirely
exposed as regarded ships, there would be no shelter for the
Unmade of merchant vessels running up Channel, and
whisk is time of war would naturally wish to run into that
very best of all our Channel harbours. (Hear, hear.) Were
the government to keep s huge number of these iron ships
leaked up between the Isle of Wight and Portsmouth
simply with the view of protecting our assellnit navy'.
there must be a limit with regard tepests the aim of
has and the thickness of the iron aea el torn,
bat there was not the same limit m esipsits iota U
they could conetruct a gun to carry in d stassout
pounds weight, of course it call he minted in
a fort, sod if they could melee time plane km er
Ave times their present thicinm, they sin mid
be put in a fort, and thseerne above eel&
be no doubt that, as compared with elders. forts OW over
be the stinger of the two. He was net prepared to go into
the question of how far it might hereafterbe for the govern-
ment to modify their plans. All he oral my was, he could
wore bon. gentlemen that *her well esnernestion Sir
Richard Durdas always eruiliseel time hats ilsolutly
necessary for the protection of —.- lamb it was
true that Sir Richard had mitten to the effect that the
French were making such
iorein is irneseed ships, that
it became a matter of we Audi also devote our
energies to the construction inward ernals. He had
been told that the Admaally bad dens rifting with the
view of preparing vessels of the erne class as
the Monitor, but he might say be had been
one of the most earnest advocates of such • spasm. With
mud to the Captain Coles dispute, he believed the plan
of-that gentleman was meals of very large development.
(Hear, bear.) Bat Captain Colas vend, exactly ea this
very Monitor, was not fit to go woes the Atbatie. She
was not a seagoing vessel, but she would be very impeder
to the Monitor, because she would earry her guns Y feat out
of water. They wen told that the Americans bad bolt
this Monitor to bent us, and that we bad moth* like her,
but did any one read the account of her voyage from New
York' There was the account of the engineer, who
said that three seam wen down her horn/. He
(Lord Clarence Paget) believed her ho be • vend
remarkably well rigged for piranha. service, bat
not at all fit to cross the Atlantis. It was, however, •
question for the game ornirnation of the government
whether we might not have vestals of that setae to pro-
tect our waste. Bat he mud pretest again its being mid
that the government WWII not giving due oommiderstion to
them matters. (Hear, beer.)
Mr. H. BEN'TINCIE said all the house asked was that
the government shoal pause before proceeding further
under that system, which might have been pod
last year, but was brought into disrepute by repent
events ; in order that more money might en be laid out on
defences which might in a short thus prove utterly worth-
less. (Hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAY expand his regret that the go-
vernment bad decided spinet reconsidering the system of
fortifications. He believed that the question of the con-
struction of iron-clad men-of-war 1,1111 in its Johan, and
that vessels would be ooestrooted which would *end a shot
through the Warrior herself se if she were a bandbox.
The subject then dropped.
THE NEW TURKISH LOAN.
Mr. HUBBARD called attention to the participation of
her Majesty's government in the proposals for an Ottoman
loan, suggesting that government had gone too far, and
laid a round for a future claim upon the government.
Some remarks were made by Mr. FRILLAND and Sir
R. Currore, and
Lord PALMERSTON said that the government bsd only
acted on the commonest dictates of (headship and huma-
nity in the transactions towards an ally, in the maintenance
of whose independence England
_has a deep interest. The
mission of Lord Hobart obtained full information as to
Turkish finance, and an arrangement was aime to, part of
which was that a portion of the paper money was to be
sailed in - and the Turkish government having failed to ob-
tain a loin for the purpose elsewhere except on terms which
would have been too burdensome, applied to this country ;
and it was stated that it would greatly facilitate the ob-
taining of a loan if the goverment would, not guar-
antee or recurs the loan in any way, but authorise some
person to go to Turkey to superintend the appli-
cation of the revenues, set apart for that object, to the
of the loan. As this would tend to place the
I:27er of Turkey on a earnactory footing, and bind the
British government to nothing, it was a request which they
could hardly have declined with any consistency with the
friendly relations between the two countries, especially
looking to the character of the present Sultan and the
prospect of great reforms is his empire.
UNAPPROPRIATED VOTES. _

- - ---
Mr. WILLIAMS called attention to the fact, that while
the amount proposed for the civil service estimates was
696,000 f., the sum lying over from the votes of former
years amounted 769,0001. He considered that it would be
very desirable to have an aesurance from her Majesty's go-
van:mast that in future all same unexpended on the 31st
of Marsh in each year should be paid into the Treasury, and
fresh votes taken if required.
Kr. F. PEEL thought that the government were entitled
to credit rather than censure for the existence of the balance
alluded to by the hoe. gentleman. It was to be remem-
bered that most of the votes were not passed hut year until
very late in the swim, and the existence of the balsam in-
dicated that the government would not expend money
under the votes until the authority of parliament had been
repaired. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had !already
stated more than once this *Mien that in future the votes
for the civil service should be taken, not for the services be-
longing to the year, but for the payments falling due within
the year.
SUPPLY. _

The house then went into committee of supply, Mr.
Mass= in the chair.
THE CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
On the vote of 89,510/. for the purpose of maintaining
public buildings sod other things,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE wished to ask whether it would not
be possible to improve the appetite/00e of the fountains in
Trafalgar-square, which had lately been made to throw up
little beta of hot water, which gave out a large quantity of
and prevented the fountains from being seen.
creamAter.)
Mr. LOCKE would be glad to know whether it was in-
tended that the fountains should shoot up the water to any
considerable height. Whether the water was hot or cold
be did not know, but there was very little of it. (Laughter.)
He thought that the fountains ought to be done away with
altogether—(a laugh)—unless they were rendered more
sportive than hitherto. At present they were the most
outrageous failure in the metropolis.
Mr. COWPER said he quite agreed that the fountains
were in a condition that Englishmeo might well be ashamed
of. (Hear, hear.) But he promised that in the month of
May they would be in such a state as that every Englishman
would be proud of. (Hear, hear.) The house was good
enough last year to vote a sum of money for increasing the
supply of water for the fountains. These works were now
in progress, and he believed the result would be to make them
very ornamental and very much to be admired. The water
which now supplied the fountains was water which had
already been used in the condensing part of the engine, and
which was thereby raked to • very considerable heat. It
was then sent out to cool—(a leiegb)—and again returned to
the condensing part of Wo engine. That inconvenience,
however, in future would be ressedied.
Upon the vote of 84,8841. for royal parks and pleasure
grounds,
Mr. STANILAND suggested that the estimate should be
givea more is detail, and moved that the vote be reduced
by MOM
Mr. COX spin protested against expending 1,6831. oa
Kennington-park, and said that when it was a common the
people could disport themselves upon it which they could
not do now, and in fact they were excluded from it.
Mr. COWPER said be fortunately was able to give the
detaibi of the expenditure on lienningtoaimrk. The right
hon. gentleman then read a great numbee at items, amongst
which he enumerated 347/. for police constables, 3501. for
pleating, 100/. for beeping up walks, 651.ferwatatorfootpailia,
soperistendent, 201. ; night watchman, 631. ; snowsuits for
firing for ditto, 3/. ; N. towards funeral expenses —(loud
laughter)--this was a contribution in case a death occurred.
but if it did not occur it went towards medical aid, or relief
in sickness; 501. to the Vauxhall Water Company for water.
(Cries of "Oh.") Well, the water was not all thrown on the
grass or the footpaths, but a portion of it was drunk by the
polies constables—(lesd lang ter)—end the hon. member
for Fiesbury and his constituents might come to the pump
and drink whenever thanked.
Lord SLOB° mid that if the parks were not locked up
at night they would remala loader the attention of the
metropolitan polies. The Green-peek was closed each wres-
ts& sad there was no watcher left in chirps
_of it. If any
part required cam at night that park, situated as it was in
the entre of London, ad. Sir Richard Nam had !alarmed

. 1862.

him (Lord Ilcho), that if it via. not locked up it would lo
under his charge. The right huu. gentleman could avoid
those charges for watchers if he allowed the parka to remain
on^c.
The 001241111tiel they divided—
For the mesweinewl
Against it
Majedey -n
The vote woe lima awed to.
Mr. COX Wes 111111110 i the redaction of the vote for Ken-
nington-park from I,ffi7f. 51.4 d. to 1,0001.
On a point of order,
Mr. MASSEY said that he could not receive the amend-
ment.
Mr. COX then moved the reduction of the entire vote by
a sum of NW. se. 4d.
Mr. COWPER said that if the amendment was carried
public enjoyment would be seriously interfered with.
Alter some Oblerßikei from Mr. Locke, Mr. Malin, and
lir. Hunt,
Lord PALMERSTON observed that he hoped it would
sot be said that after spending a great many hours in dis-
missing sums of every possible magnitude, great and small,
the house, at 12 o'clock, determined to cut off a cam of 600/.
destined for the enjoyment, the health, and the recreation
of a large portion of the community. (Hear, hear.)
The committee then divided, and the numbers were
For the amendment 64
Against
The vote was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the house
rimmed.