The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-15 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 15, 1851.

to destroy my character.
friend had. without
miasma station in Rs
country skk in body,
any expression of
dear to him wider
(Cheers.)
The Bishop of 7
souby concurred
on behalf of the Bit_
impugned in
-T " mother ,
Then bject then
HE midavAT FLORENCE.
Earl FITZWILLIAM gave notice that he would to-
morrow ask his noble friend who represented the govern-
meat It the statement which had
uipeared in a newspaper
was true, that government in to discoatinue the mis-
sion at Florence.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said there wss no inten-
tion whatever of discontinuing the mission.
Bari FITZWILLIAM said be was glad to hear there
was no truth in the report, and he was therefore relieved
from putting the question to-morrow.
COURT OF CHANCERY AND JUDICIAL
COMMITTEE BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved that this bill bo
read a first time.
Lord BROUGHAM said his noble friend bad given him
sew ea opportunity before he left town, which be was
21tdo on account of his health, to state his ;opinion
to
bin. It was true that it was unusual to make any
statament on the first reading of a bill, but as he should
not address the house again this session be should
tabs the op_porataity of expressing his opinions in favour of
the bill. His approved of the bill as far as it went.
Hs alasidered that it was a step in the right direction, but
is sammittes WI hoped that some changes would be made
ia te. With newt to that portion of the bill which re-
howl te the Ilfrellate jurisdiction of the Privy Council,
theme 111116 them Maven which ought to be carefully cos-
atiMed Wire this bill passed into a law: first, whether
the preeeesa ought to be reduced, an this bill proposed, from
argefit Am. Ile had a very strong feeling in favour et
tour. He considered that all the experience of West.
minster-hall was strong and clear in favour a
four. It was indubitably better that, where then
was a difference of opinion, there should be 3to
1 rather than 2 to 1. With respect to the danger di
basing 2 against 2, all he could say was, that in the
Judicial Committee, which had been in existence now 18
years, that accident had occurred only once. The other
point which he hoped would not fail to receive attentive
consideration was, the necessity of having a constant pre-
siding judge in the Judicial Committee. His noble friend
the president of the council, when required, never failed to
attend and preside over them. He thought, however, they
ought not to have a lay president, but a lawyer. No pru•
vision was made in the bill to supply another and material
defect, in ewes which rarely occurred, but which he feared
were likely tobe more numerous hereafter. Ile meant cases
Involving spiritualquestiune, cases which might he of 'highly
important and execediugly difficult nature, and which were
very often he might be allowed to add, of an exceedingly '
ebscure nature. They, of the Judicial Committee, were ad-
mirably adapted to treat of questions of the common law;
they were oenversant with the doctrines of the Coiviistorial
Court and of civil law ; they were well adapted to deal with
all classes of evidence takes in a court of law, or taken in
another court, to which he would not more spetifkally al-
lode. They felt that they were able to deal with all these,
but there were other questions, of a spiritual nature, with
which they felt themselves wholly unfitted to deal. They
did not wish to have a body established which should
dictate to them on this subject, but they wished
to have the opinions of men learned in that teem&
of the law. Ile had said that this bill Ira • step
in the right direction ; hut it was not a very long
Ile did not think that any structural alteration in the
Court of Chancery would lay the axe to the root of the
greatest of grievances which this country lay under. It '
might enable them to get rid of the arrears,but it would sot
do that justice to the suitor which he had a right to expect
—namely, that he should obtain that which was his right at
a moderate cost of money and of trouble, and, above all, of
time. Ilaviug instanced several casts of actual
as well as suppository abuse, delay, and inurdi-
nate expense, his lordship would say to them, in
the words of Lord Chatham on the subject of soo-
ther kind of reform, "If you don't carry that re-
form yourselves the people will come in upon you and you
will be reformed front without with a veugeance." (Hear,
hear.) Ile was not, however, one of those who wished for
violent reforms of any kind. lie hail always consistently
maintained that to make reform wholesome they must make
it safe. And to make it safe they must have it left in the
hands of skilful and well.informed men. One thing, how-
ever, was certain, that is proportion es they delayed re-
form the greater was the danger of the good being swept
away with the bad, and, as he had on a former occasion
said to their lordships, " having the good and bad swept
away together, the judicature of the country would be re-
duced to such a state of ruin as would afford and spectacle
of the vanity of human affairs and the instability of man's in-
etitutions, but a wholesome wnrning to those who from fear
of granting moderate and safe reform, exposed them to the
hazard of violent abolition." The present measure would
remedy existing evils so far, and he trusted that a long time
would not elapse before they would experience the bene-
ficial effects of those most valuable nteasures of legal reform
' which hail lately been sent down to the other house. The
County Courts Extension Bill and the Law of Evidence
Bill, would, when passed into law, be productive of much
good. In addition, however, to this, the public mind would
he pointed to the adoption, as far as possible, of a combine•
tion of the two systems of equity and law, by what was
technically called a fusion of the two branches. Ile hoped
that the time was not far off when they would have the
happiness of acting this amongst other reforms in our juris.
prudence, and that they should be able to say that they lad
made a real and effectual progress towards the amendment
of the law. In conclusion he had only to thank their lord.
ships fur their kind indulgence.
The LOltD CHANCELLOR regretted the cause which
rendered the absence of the noble lord from the house us.
avoidable. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had shimmed
the house on matters of great importance, and he would
hut then follow him through his numerous statements. There
had been already laid on the table a report from the com-
mission in reference to the improvement of the common
law courts, and a measure founded on that report would
speedily be introduced, and would, he expected, pass this
session. It was out likely that the Chancery reports would
be ready in time to be acted on during the present session,
but they might rest assured that no time would be lost con-
sistent with the consideration due to the subject. The sug-
gedions made by the noble lord (Lord Brougham), would
receive the greatest degree of attentive consideration. As
to the present bill, it was addressed to the remedy of a
particular evil. The unfortunate illness of several of the
judges had lead to an arrear of causes, end it
was to remedy this evil and prevent its recurrence
in future that the present bill had been introduced. Whet
the commission hail tiuished its labour* a general remedy
would he proposed.
After a few words from Lord 131W1:0111111,
The bill wan read a first time.
Oa the motion of the Marquis of CLANItIeAItDII,
The Waterford and Teaks: Railway Bill was read a second
time.
WREXHAM IMPROVEMENT BILL.
After some conversation between the Earl of GALLOWAY
and Lord CANOTA, regarding a breach of the standing
orders in connexion with this bill,
Earl TALBOT was understood to give notice that at the
proper time he would move for its recommittal.
IR:MASSES AND FREEMEN'S PARLIAME`--
FRANCHISE BILL.
On the motion of Lord BIUVISONT the above bill passed
through committee and was reported.
LODGING HOUSES BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of 811•171,6111:117 this bill
was read a third time and passed.
Their lordships adjourned at eight o'clock

7ARY

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MoXDAY, JULY 14.
The firzazza took the chair at a quarter to 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

EAST ANGLIA:IitAiI:VAiIia, ELECTRIC
TELEGRAPH BILL, AND THE VLYERSTONR
AND LANCASTER RAILWAY BILL.

The Lords' amendments on these lulls were considered
and agreed to.
GENERAL REVER:H9N.ARY AND INVESTMENT

vas
eawer

subectid to
much greater annoyance previous to the mein of the act.
Formerly they wereobliged to tell whither they were going,
and to give notice every time they changed their residence.
Still if the present act were found to be productive of seri-
ous inconvenience, he should certainly be ready to take it
Into consideration, with a view to its amendment. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
leave to state that some Tears ago similar complaints were
made to him, hut on inquiry he could not discover any one
that hsd found the law an inconvenience. (Hear.)
HOSPITAL IN PHIENIX PARK.

Mr. GROGAN asked Sir William Somerville if any plan
for the erection of an hospital in Phonis-park for the use
of the constabulary had been submitted to the Irish go-
vernment, and whether such plan bad been approved of or
not? . .

Sir 7V. SOMERVILLE had received no communications
on the subject, and could give no information. He would,
however, make an enquiry into the matter.
THE lONIAN ISLANDS.

Mr. III; ME asked if it was the intention of the govern-
ment to lay upon the table a copy of the correspondence be-
tween the Lord High Commissioner and her Majesty's go-
vernment respecting the reforms in the institutions iu the
Islands, in continuation of the papers laid before parliament
in the last session ?
Mr. lIAWES replied in the negative.
FLAG PROMOTIONS.

Sir G. PECIIELL asked the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty what arrangements had been made with respect to the
civil appointments of Vice and Rear-Admirals of Great
Britain since the late promotion and the revision of the
list of flag officers; alas, w liether the flag officers now re-
moved from the active list arc to form a separate list, or to
be amalgamated with the retired list of 1846 ; also, whether
the lists of retired officers and the promotion of commanders
and lieutenants, according to the plan lately laid before
parliament, will be announced in the Go:diet
Sir F. BARING said the late alteratims would make no
difference in the caves of the vice and rear admirals, the ap-
pointment of whom would rent not with him but with the
First Lord of the Treasury. These flag officers would form
a reserved list, belonging neither to the active nor the re-
tindl list. Nu doubt that these, like all other appointments,
would be gasetted.
"CATHOLIC VINDICATOR."

Sir W. ViaNig hod given notice of firslntentim to
ask a question of the Attorney-General, but unless the
noble lord (Lord John Itiessell) would answer it himself he
would postpone it until he saw the right hon. and learned
gentleman in his place. (Cries of " Read it.") The ques-
tion was as follows :—To oak the Attorney-General for
England whether Ids attention has been directed to certain
passages in a newspaper, published July .5, entitled the
Catholic Vindicator, and amongst them one to the following
effect:—That if her Majesty the Queen should place her
signature to a certain abominable bill (the Ecclesiastical
Titles Bill), she will compel all real catholics to regard her
in a manner we are certain she will have cause to regret.
Lord J. RUSSELL—My attention had been directed to
the passage in question, and I have had some conversation
with the Attorney-General en the subject; but it certainly
does appear to us that it would be very unadvisable to raise
into importance what seems to be a most trumpery. publica-
tion, and which contains sentiments that, abominable as
they are, we are persuaded are totally different from
the sentiments of the Roman catholic people generally.
(Loud cheers.)
TILE IRISH HOSPITALS.

.....
On the question that the St EACER do leave the chair, on
going into a committee of supply on the miscellaneous esti-
mates,
Mr. REYNOLDS moved as an amendment, a resolution
setting forth the importance and value of the Dublin hospi-
tals as schools of medicine in Ireland, and declaring the
injustice and impolicy of reducing the annual grant which
had been allowed in 1813 and preceding years for the main-
tenance of those establishments.
Sir L. O'BRIEN meondt d tho motion.
The CIIANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER stated the
grounds upon which he resisted the motion. A parliament-
ary committee had recommended upon principle the discon-
tinuance of these grants to the eighteen establishments at
Dublin ; hut it was not intended to diminish the votes to
two of them, which were the principal schools of medicine
and surgery. The Dublin hospitals could establish no claim
for aid from the exchequer while those in England were
supported without such assistance.
The motion was supported by Mr. Roche, Mr. Grogan,
Mr. S. Herbert, Colonel Dunne, and opposed by Mr. V.
Smith.
The house divided :
For the amendment
Against it lO6-63
TILE HORFIELD CASE.

Mr. P. MILES, in reply to Mr. Hume, observed that he
had written a letter, calling on the public to suspend their
judgment on the statements made by the hon. member Mr
Cockermouth till the Bishop of Gloucester, who was absent,
could reply to them. That reply had since appeared, and
whether it was a sufficient answer or not, the public could
now judge. After that explanation, it would be unneces-
sary for him to go into the subject, but he was quite pre-
pared to answer any charges that might be made against
the Bishop of Gloucester.
Mr. HORSMAN said that he had made the statements i
publicly in that house, and in the presence of members of
the ecclesiastical commission ; he also stated that they were
founded on evidence taken before a committee of 0 e house.
(Hear, hear.) No answer or explanation that he knew of
had been given to those statements, for that house knew of
ho letter having been written by the Bishop of Gloucester.
Ile thought the hon. member for Gloucester was justified
in taking the course he had done, and when he
had seen the hon. gentleman's letter, he went to the hon.
gentleman and told him that he would give him every faci-
lity in his power to bring the subject before the house, and
he even indicated the specific portions of the evidence from
which he had taken the statements he had made. (Hear,
hear.) It was impossible fur him to bring the subject for-
ward again, there being ten or twelve other motions on
going into committee of supply, and all the notice days up
to the 29th of July having been filled up. lie therefore
reiterated that no answer or explanation bad been given to
the statement he made to the house. But he heard
with surprise that whereas no answer had been at-
tempted in that house to statements made in that
house, and founded on evidence taken before that
house, another right rev. prelate had set up an answer
elsewhere—in an assembly which had not heard the state-
ment, as they were made, which had not the evidence on
which these statements were made before it ; and set up,
therefore, with all the fearlessness of a man who knew that
what he said could not be contradicted. (llen. hear.) The
public would draw their own conclusions from this. (Hear,
hear.) He was not only ready and anxious to substantiate
the accuracy of the statements lie had made, but was pre-
pared to show that inmost material points the circumstances
were stronger than he had stated them. He had brought
before the house an abuse of the gravest and grossest Mud
on the most serious subject that could engage its
attention, and now the hon. gentleman who asked the
public to suspend their judgment till some explanation or
answer bad been given, says that he did not feel called on
to give any.
Lord J. MANNERS noticed the severity of Mr. Hors-
man'sinvectives, and the elaborate and prepared terms in
which they were conveyed.
Mr. GLADSTONE did not think they could then enter
upon a discussion of this kind, but he thought it was desir-
able, both for the hon. gentleman opposite, whose state-
ment. on all the material points had been so seriously im-
pugned, as well as for the other parties concerned, that
another discussion should take place when the opportunity
arose. ("Hear, hear," from Mr. Horsman.) He was the
less disposed to credit the imputations cast upon the Bishop
of Gloucester, because, as far as he was aware, no
man—no member of the right reverend bench—was
more distinguished for his charity and liberality. (Hear
hear.) He had neither friendship nor acquaintance with
that right rev. prelate; but from what he hail seen and
heard of his liberality, he confessed it came upon him by
surprise to hear that he was implicated in conduct of so
grave a kind. lie considered that the conduct of the
bishop had been vindicated by the letter on every substan-
tial point, and on some points more than completely vindi-
cated—(hear, hear)—fur it showed not only justice, but
liberality and high merit in his trust. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped.
SUPPLY.
The house then went into committee of supply.
The followiug votes were agreed to:-
4,0191. for the civil establishments of Bermuda was
agreed to.
1,5001. for Prince Edward's Island.
7,6771. for the ecclesiastical establishments in North
America.
13,6601. for the Indian department in Canada.
701. for the Bahama Islands
. ; 18.02131. for the salaries of governors, lieutenant-governors,
and others in the West India Islands.
36,0751. for salaries and allowances of stipendiary magis-
trates in the West India colonies and the Mauritius.
13,7113/. for the civil establishments on the Western Coast
of Africa.
10.78.31. for the island of St. Ilelena.
6,319/. for Western Australia, and '
1,1031. to repay expenses defrayed by the naval depart-
ment for the settlement at Purt Essiugton.
Oa the nest vote being proposed—viz., 20,0001., " the
amount of aid required to defray the charge of New
, • Zealand,"
Mr. V. SMITH wished to elicit some information with
, regard to the position in which the government stood with
. the New Zealand Company, having taken the colony with
i all its liabilities.
Mr. HAVES replied that the company had given a
' notice, which had expired on the sth of July, IBA, when
, the government assumed. not all the liabilities of the com-
pany, as his right hon. friend had stated, but all the le:
i liabilities incurred with the knowledge and sanction of the
1 commissioner appointed under the act of parliament. The
papers would be laid on the table ; and, should they not he
I sufficiently explanatory, he should be glad to afford all the
, information in his power.
Mr. COBDEN could not understand why the people of
England should be called upon year after year to defray
these charges fur the benefit of people at the antipodes, who
were far better able to pay them themselves. This vote
was but a specimen of our colonial system. Here was a
charge of 2,500/. for the salary of a governor, 8001. for a

lientenant/overnor, and, not content with that, we must
support those chief Justice, at an expense of. 1,0001. a year •
aNithby 'be it remembered, for a population of some 20,000
or 30,000 emigrants. Then there wen charges
lof 6301. for law-officers and clerks, 0001. for the
salary of a bishop, 6901. for chaplains and schools.
Why did not these people pay for, these things dummies's
Wig were we tote called upon to pay flit their roads sad
public works, and fur the employment of the natives for
their benefit? lie protested against the vote altogether.
Mr. PLUMPTRE thought there was no colony more de-
serving of support from the mother country than New
Zealand.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS moved to reduce the vote by 6001.
Mr. HUME considered it useless to propose such •
limited reduction. The charge for public works was out of
proportion to the number of inhabitants, and he would move
that the item of 10,3351. for public works, and the 6001. for
the bishop's salary, be disallowed. His motion would be
that the vote be reduced by 10,9151.
After • few words from Mr. M`Claeoon,
Mr. HAWES, in defending the vote, alluded to the in-
creasing trade which was springing up between this country
and New Zealand. He was of opinion that in disposing of
a vote of this nature the whole of the population, native
and European, must be considered. It was true that the
European population did not exceed 10,000 souls, but the
natives amounted to between 150,000 and 200,000, and the
colony was advancing very rapidly.
After a few words from Mr. FULMER,
Mr. COBDEN objected to the principle of coming to that
house and asking for money under the pretence of sending
missionaries abroad. Let our missionary labours be vo-
luntary labours. It was not the province of the house to
promote Christianity either by the force of our arms or by
the appointment of bishops to New Zealand. (Hear, bear.)
The fact was that, taking all our disbursements into
consideration, we were expending far more than
100,0001. annually in New Zealand. It was stated
last year in the committee that three ships of
war would be required on that station. We had
a large military establishment there which must be fed and
Hotbed. There had been upwards of 2,000,0001. spent
there by England since the bequest of a portion of the ter-
ritory had been made. He did not think the island would
ever pay 5 per cent. upon what we had laid out on it, for
we could never have a large commerce with it. It was not
a tropical country ; on the contrary, its climate was very
similar to our own, and therefore it was not in the nature
of things that we could have an extensive interchange of
commodities with it. Then, had we not been expending
too much upon it ? We ought not to be expending money
unless there was some prospect of our obtaining a return;
and therefore be protested against the present vote. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL did net think such a case had been
made oat as should induce the house to reject the vote.
What was the stet.: of New Zealand when we first
began to govern it ? It was inhabited by a large body of
natives, and the island was overrun 'er a most abandoned
set of people. It became a question with the colonists whe.
they missionaries ought not to be sent there with a view to
civilise the people ; and the colonists further proposed to
establish, without the authority of the crown, laws which
would enable them to inflict punishments for criminal
offences. lie hail, however, informed them that that could
not be permitted; and he was happy to say that the
opinions he entertained upon that point 4hail been
confirmed by the present Lord Chancellor. It then
became a question whether England should not establish
the authority of the crown in the colony. (Hear.) lie
believed the house had been incurring an expense for some
years with the view of doing a great work--one of those
noble and heroic works which England ought to undertake
—that of founding a colony which hereafter, when its
pulation and resources increased, might be in a prosperous'
state, and that it was not unworthy of England to bring
New Zealand into a condition of civilisation and under the
power and influence of Christianity. It was with this view
that the house had begun and had continued to grant sums
from time to time to aid the colony. The period would
most probably soon arrive when New Zealand would be
in a position to defray the whole of its expenses. lie was
not ashamed to own that he had recommended the crown to
appoint the present bishop of New Zealand, and that he
had promised to propose a sum of 6001. a year for his main-
tenance. It seemed, upon the whole, that we had better
go on for a short time longer paying this sum, and con-
gratulating ourselves that we had succeeded in establishing
a flourishing colony. (Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. Plumptre, and
Mr. E. Denison, the committee divided—

For Mr. Ilume's amendment 23
Against it
The gallery was immediately after cleared for a division
upon Mr. Williains's amendment, but none took place, as
that amendment was withdrawn.
The vote was then agreed to.
Upon the motion that a sum of 5,0001. be voted to defray
the charge of the Falkland Islands,
Mr. COBDEN asked what wos the population of these
islands?

---- •
Mr. HAWES replied that it was very small—only about
120. (Loud laughter.)
Mr. COBDEN believed it was only 100; so that the
committee were voting d,OOOl. for the government of 100
people, or at the rate of MI. ahead. Ile advised the com-
mittee to withdraw from these islands.

I iMr. HUME said that although the Falkland islands were
extremely small, the surveyor's salary was 300'., and the
surveyors department cost no less than 1,1671. Resides
this, the governor received 800/., and the magistrate 400/.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought it monstrous to take
5,0601. a-year out of the pockets of the people of England
to pay for the government of these islands, whereas the
islanders themselves only paid 750/. a-year.
Sir J. WALMSLEY asked whether there were any
troops there, and whether, in the 120 inhabitants, the
governor, chaplain, and surveyor, were included ?
Mr. HAWES said this vote was, in point of fact, bene-
ficial to the general trade of the empire. There must be
some government to manage the islands. He presumed the
magistrate there carried on the administration of justice ;
and, if so, he ought to be paid for it. The question as
regarded this vote resolved itself into this—was or was it
not of commercial and military importance to retain this
station? It was quite certain that if we gave it up there
were other governments who would be quite ready to
take it. There had been on the part of the Colonial.
office the utmost anxiety to reduce the expenditure in this
direction to the greatest possible extent; and since 180
and 1816 the expenditure had been diminished from 0,0001.
and 7,000/. to the present estimate—namely, 5,000/. While
making this statement he might take the opportunity of
mentioning to the house that the present governor of the
Falkland Islands had dune much to promote the interest of
the colony.
Mr. SPOONER—There is • surveyor, costing 1,200!.
What are his duties? (Laughter.)
Mr. lIAWES—A surveyor is necessary in every colony
where the land is let out to immigrating settlers. (Ironical
cheers)
Sir J. WALMSLEY—The hon. gentleman has as yet
avoided answering my question. What is the number of
troops in the colony ? (Great laughter.)
Mr. HAWES—There arc no troops whatever. (Renewed
laughter.)
Mr. E. DENISON—I find the sum of 2501, set down for
"emigration." Of course, the population of 100 find it
extremely dull, and must be in want of a little change of
company. (Laughter.) Are we to understand that the
Colonial-office gives a bonus to the new comers?
Mr. HAWES—The 2501., I believe, is spent in paying
the expenses of pensioners going out from this country.
Mr. WILLIAMS—I find that the local revenue in the
islands is decreasing. Does this arise from a reduction in
taxation, or from the impoverishment of the people?

The CIiANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER—I am
afraid the falling off arises horn reduction of taxation.
(Laughter.)
Mr. COIIDEN asked how many merchant vessels touched
at the Falkland Islands last year? The year before nut a
single vessel bad touched there, according to the report of
the governor.
Mr. IIAWES—I am not prepared to say how many ves-
sels touch at these Wands in the course of a year. But I
do know that more vessels touched there last year than in
the year before. (Laughter.)
Mr. HUME-1 will not maintain that this station ought
to be given up ; but I do put it to the government whether
the station might not be kept up at a considerably less
expense than at present. In my opinion, everything ne-
cessary could be effected for one-fourth of the present ex-
pense. Spain and Holland always make their colonies pay
their expense*, an! we ought to do the same.
Mr. IiANVES—I do not altogether oppose the general
amendment of the hon. gentleman. I believe that the ex-
penditure in this colony is, indeed, rather large—(laughter)
—and I may further state that the subject is at present
under the consideration of my noble friend the Secretary
for the Colonies. (Laughter.)
Cu!. SALWEY—I want to know what is the religious
persuasion of the majority of the 100 ? (Laughter.) I ask
the question, because I find that 4001. is given to a chap-
lain. I should think that there cannot be more than ten

families in the island, and this is rather dear pay fur the
chaplain.
Mr. IIAWES—I can only again say, in reply to these
comments, that the matter is under the coasideration of the
Colonial-office (Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was 15,5001., "to defray the
charge of Hong-Kong."
Mr. SCOTT opposed this vote. Hong-Kong was the
dearest piece of ground in her Majesty's possession. Hong•
Kong was a place of an extent of only twenty miles, with
nut more than twenty acres cultivated. Its population (lid
not exceed 30,000. Fifteen-sixteenths of this Population
were Chinese, only 450 being Europeans and Americans.
And this 14,5001. was not the only expense. In Hong-Kong
there was paid besides 24,0001. raised by the taxation of the
people there ; and thus altogether the place cost 39,0001.
The harbour-master received 460/. a year; yet it
was a fact that hie duty was discharged by a Lascar who
received little or nothing. The governor stated in one of
the papers laid before the house that this vote had been
greatly diminished. Hut there had been no diminution
whatever in salaries, which were enormous. The governor
I got 6,0001., the colonial secretary, 6,0001.; the survevor,
1,'_001., and the harbour master about 1,2001. He (\lr.
Scott) had moved as en amendment on this vote last year,
that it be reduced by 3,0001., and he thought it his duty
to urge the same amendment this year.
Mr. HAWKS saw in the speech and motion of the hon.
gentleman but little encouragement to persevere in a rigid
system of gradual economy. He (Mr. Hawes) had believed
that the papers which had accompanied this estimate would
have satisfied every member of the house that a safe gra-
dual reduction was being yearly made in this vote.
It was quite true that last year the hon. gentleman hid
proposed a reduction of 5,0001. in that year's estimate.
But the estimate this year was less by 4,0001. than the esti-
mate last year, and yet the hon. gentleman again came for-
ward and suggested a further reduction of 5,0001. (" Hese,

hear," from Mr. Scott.) In justification of the pre-
sent expenditure there had been a considerable
increase in the trade of the colony. Comparing 1848
and 1831 the increase had been enormous. With
the increase in the trade, population had greatly in-
creased; and putting these facts together, and taking into
consideration also that the eapenditure had been considerably
disainished,be thought the house would adm;t that there were
no grounds whatever for pressing this amendment. Be-
yond what be had suggested it ought further to be remem-
bered that Hong-Kong was of importance to us, affording
securities to the Engin,. trade in the Chinese seas.
Mr. SPOONER found the sum of 4,9001. set down else-
where for the consul at Hong-Kong. This appeared a
large sum.
Mr. HAWES believed that this included the whole con-
sular establishments for China.

Mr. BCOTT—No, no ; the consular estahlisluneuts in
Mina cost 27,000/. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. lIUME did not consider that the speech of the hon.
gentleman was consistent with the facts of the ease. Facts
which had come to his (Mr. Hume's) knowledge did not
bear out the assertion so to the improvement in the position
of the colony. (Hear, hear.) He was altogether misinniniud
if the colony had not completely failed as respected the pur-
pose for which it had been estaolished. (Hear, hear.)
When Hong-Kong was taken by us, it was with a view of
making it a resort for Chinese merchants, and of removing
the Bntish trade from Canton. Nothing of the kind had
been accomplished. (Hear, hear.) No Chinese of any
position or respectability had as yet settled at Hung-
Kong. An English governor at Hong-Kong hail
no more influence with the Chinese authorities than
a governor of the Philippine islands. In Can-
ton, where some influence fur British interests might
be obtained, we had no representative in the po-
sition to command Chinese respect. Dr. Bowring, our
consul at Canton, was possessed of no influence whatever,
and had never yet been so recognised as to procure an inter-
view with the Chinese governor of Canton. When commu-
nications had to be made between the English and Chinese
governments they had to go from Canton to Hong-Kong,
and back to Canton ; and, of course, in such a CAW, the go-
vernor at Hong-Kong exercised no influence. It was, at
any rate, impis.ible to defend the salaries given at
Hung-Kong. Such a colony as Hong Kong ought
to be made self-sustaining, and being anxious for a reduc-
tion in the vote he would willingly go into the lobby with
the hon. member who had moved the amendment.

Viscount EALNI ELISION said that, as a commercial de-
pot, (long-Kong had answered to a great extent. There
was a direct trade with many parts of China. But it should
not he considered as a commercial station merely ; it should
also be considered in connexion with its political hearing on
China. Is hail been premed upon him by the commissioners
at the settlement of the affairs of Chinn, that some spot free
from Chinese caprice should be secured to this country, and
Chusan was mentioned; but authorities in this country
thought Hong-Kong preferable. It wan, in his opinion,
however, necessary that there should be some spot on the
coast of China, where British merchants could be free front
from Chinese caprice, and not placid at the mercy of what-
ever party held the government of Canton. Of late there
had been a reaction in Chinese policy against Euro Tan in.
tercourse, and attempts had been made even to infringe the
treaty, which, it was hoped, would need nothing more than
remonstrance. But if the Chinese threw difficulties and
obstructions in the way, it was of immense importance to
have a central authority for the protection of British trade
and commerce. The Governor ur Iliing-Kong had civil and
criminal jurisdiction, and that formed a considerable. por-
tion of his duties. Under these circumstances, and seeing
the importance of Hong-Kong in a political as well as a
COalfal !VIA paint of view, he did not think the expense was
greater than the considerations which were pleaded for its

Mr. W, WILLIAMS.—It was not a question of giving'
up Hong-Kong. It was a question of decreasing the cost
of the establishments at Hong-Kong. Here was a governor
getting 6,0001. a year-1,000/. more than the noble lord
(Lord Palmerston) himself got.
Lord PALMERSTON protested against the comparison
of colonial salaries with those of the Secretary of State. For
his own part, he considered that his right hon. friend was
very much underpaid. (Laughter.) Comparing the
salaries paid to the public servants of this country with
those paid by rivate mercantile firms to their agents in China.
he did not think they would consider the former ton high.
Mr. J. CLAY agreed with the noble lord, that it was un-
fair to compare the salaries of one office with those of ano-
ther. Ile knew many gentlemen who would gladly accept
the office of a county court judge at a thousand a year
who would decline that of Lord Chief Justice at 3,0001.
Mr. HUME considered, that to pay 3,000/. a year for re-
ceiving and auditing 23,000/., or to pay 1,2001. to the
Surveyor-General of a rock only 20 miles in extent, was •
most reckless expenditure.
Mr. HAWES thought, that considering the climate, the
salaries were not too large. Besides, they bud already
been much reduced.

Mr. SCUT 1 said they thought 39,0001. was too large a
sum for thegorernment of such a place:

Mr. MACGREGOR was confident the noble earl at the
head of the colonial department would carry out the reduc•
tioms which he had commenced. When he thought of the
coniidencs with which ships went out 110 W to China, he
asserted that Hong-Kong should be by no means held in
light estimation.
Captain SCOBELL said what they had to consider was,
whether the colony could be governed at a chi aper rate. He
thought the salary of the gov..rnor was most extravagant.
Mr. HAWES said it was not as governor alone he had
that salary, but as general superintendent of our trade in
China.

-After a few words from Mr. Ilvrcinivs,
The committee divided—
For•
the amendment
Against it 65-26
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was a tutu of 5,5001. for defraying the
charge of L ihuan.
Mr. ACME asked who was the governor of Labuan,
seeing that both the governors were in England ?
Mr. HAWES said Sir J. Brimke was governor, and Mr.
Scott deputy-govenior ; and that that vote had ken de-
creasing every year. In 1819 it was 7,800/. ; in IMO,
6,7001., while in 1851 it was only 5,600/.
After some discussion, in which Mr. Urquhart, Mr. Wil-
liams, Mr. Hume, and Mr. An4ey took part,
The vote was agreed to.
25,T111., charge of the Colonial Land and Emigration
Board and the officers.

On this vote being proposed,
Mr. F. SCOTT remarked that the number of persons who
emigrated annually was about 280,000. Of these about
12,1100 or 13,000 emigrated under the superintendence of
the colonial hoard, at a charity of 12,0001.,—a charge dis-
proportionately large compared a ith the services performed.
In fact, the expense of the board increased annually, while
the number of emigrants who went out under their super-
intendence decreased. In his opinion, the emigration board
ought to plaee themselves in communication with every
parish in the kingdom, and then the number of emigrants
going out under their care would increase.
Mr. lIAWES said that since 1817 emigration to the Aus-
tralian colonies had very much increased. Parliament had
refused its assistance to such emigration, and it was there-
fore necessary to raise the required funds by land sales in
is the col .s ; but for the increase or diminution of those
sales the commissioners were not responsible; they expended
the whole of the funds placed at their disposal from that
source in furthering emigration. The hon. gentleman said
the establishment had been greatly increased, but that was
solely owing to the increased number of the emigrants • and
believed that no reduction could be made in it with ativan•
tage.
?Ir. SCOTT was understood to say that a saving of
some 1,500?. a year might be effected Ly adopting Swath-
amptuu instead of Deptford.
After a brief conversation, the vote was agreed to.
Oa the vote of 60,0001. for the maintenance of liberated
Africans,

Mr. ICUME asked what was doing, and what govern-
ment was intending to do, with regard to the slave
squadron ?
Lord PALMERSTON said the committee would recol-
lect that discussions took placc with regard to this matter
last year, and that an assurance was given by government
to add additional efficiency to the preventive measures
which had been some time in force ; and in consequence
thereof there was a greater stringency both on the coast of
Africa and the coast of Brazil. These measures had been
attended with great success—almost more rapid success than
could have been expected. On the coast of Africa the
slave trade might be said to be almost extinguished
for the moment north of the line, with the exception of
Jeagas and Porto Nuevo, and in these two places the British
cruisers had spoiled their trade, and the parties who were
formerly employed in the slave trade were commencing
dealing is palm oil and the other products of the country.
Ile believed it to be perfectly true that the propensity to
I the slave trade was as great as ever in the minds of the class
who got presents for the slaves, but the bulk of the people,
who were commercial by nature and turn of mind, were
anxious to have European commodities, and were anxious
to buy these commodities with anything that would be
taken. They had thought for a long time that nothing but
slaves would be taken, but when they found that almost
anything would be taken, they were more willing to
give the commodities of the country than slaves. Steps
had been taken for the cultivation of cotton, and specimens
had been brought to this country, and submitted to the
Chamber of Commerce ut Manchester, who reported the
cotton to be of an exceedingly valuable kind, and one
which would fetch a good price in the market. In the
Portuguese settlements the slave trade had been also very
much diminished. The Portuguese governor had
cordially, and with great sincerity he believed,
supported the British admiral. There were at the
game time among the inferior officers of the Por-
; tuguesc government many who still held to the tempta-
tions offered by the slave trade. On the Portuguese coast
generally the slave trade had been paralysed, many of the
slave traders had stopped their transactions, and many of
them had turned to trade of a legitimate kind. On the
eastern coast of Africa the Imaum of Muscat had during the
last year afforded facilities to the cruisers which he hail not De-
-1 fore given, and the result was that one point in the southern
extremity of his dominions, where there was formerly a
great slave trade carried on for the supply of Brazil baracoons,
had been destroyed capable of holding 5,000 slaves. A
great blow had been struck at the slave trade on that part
of the coast, by their greater activity, by treaties which had
! been made with the native chiefs, which he was happy to
say had been observed in many places with great fidelity ;
by the progress made with Liberia; by arrangements made
with the chiefs of Salinas, and by the co-operation of the
governor of the Portuguese settlements, great progress had
been made. And he was happy to be le to state, that the
most perfect and cordial co-operation prevailed between the
British cruisers and the crubiers of France and America.
IThe chief point to which the African slave trade had been
formerly directed was the coast of Brazil, and the inquiries

I instituted by the committess which had inquired into the
subject showed the dimmest's number of slaves who used
every year to be landed on that roast. In the
early part of last year the Britieh cruisers that lead been
for a long time detained io the river Plate, in consequence
of the untbrtunate differences between this country and
the government of Buenos Ayres, were more concentrated
on the coast of Brazil, and their operatiems heiran to he
much more active and more effectual. Communications
took place with the government of Brazil, and the re-eult was
that the Brazilian government in September last passed an
additional law for punishing and preventing the slave trade.
They had at least exerted that vigilance, noel put forth that
power which it was always his opinion that they could do if
they chose, and the result had been, that in the course of
the eight months during which they had so acted they had
almost extinguished the slave trade with Brazil. The
number of slaves brought into Brazil in the year 18,0 was
not, upon the widest calculation, above halt the number
which had been brought in in former years. The greater
number of them were brought in in the first half of the
year; but in the first quarter of the present year up to
April he believed that very few slaves indeed were brought
into Brazil. The number, indeed, was stated at a few hue-
, deeds, instead of at a great number of thousands. And ho
could state that the government of Brazil was co-
' operating moat sincerely and effectually with the
government of England in fulfilling the obligations
of the treaty with England. We had laboured
under a great mistake in this country in supposing
that the Brazilian nation, as a nation, were clinging
to the slave trade. The fact was that there was a certain
number of Portuguese settlers who exercised great influence
by their capital over the minds of persons in power in that
country, but it was a laetitious influence. There had grown
up in Brazil within the lest few years an anti-slave party;
they had newspapers who espoused their cause; they were
represented in the parliament of Brazil, and he believed ho
might say that a large majority of the people were against the
slave trade. The result had been that the Brazilian government
had co-operated with the English cruisers in seizing slave
traders upon the coast. They hail seized and destroyed
baracoons along the whole extent of the coast; they had
brought to trial persons accused of the slave trade ; they
had seized slaves that were landed, and already dispersed in
plantations ; and they had exercised, in one or two cases,
the power which their constitution gave them of famishing
foreigners notoriously engaged iu Cie trade, but who, from
difficulties which existed, they were unable to bring under the
jurisdiction of their courts. Ile heard that a great number
of these slavetraders had quitted Brazil, and gone to Portu-
gal, and lee wrote to our consuls in Limon and Oporto, who
replied that 140 persons who had Melt engaged in the
slave trade had gone over to Portaged, and were investing
' their gains in buying land and houses and that they had
given up the slave trade in despair. lie was told by one of
, our naval officers that one of the Pons: ics fancily had
lust 8.5 vessels by captures, and that one with another their
value was 2,4004 a pb cc. Another proof that the Bra-
zilisns had given up the trade was that a large floating
capital, to the extent of 1,200,0I;L, which had been invested
in slave trade operations, had recently been withdrawn and
invested in a bank of discount. (Rear, hear.) The other
day, in debates on the Brazilian parliament, the Minister
for Foreign Affairs, Viscount Orlando, and other per-
sons, expressed themselves in the strongest terms, stating
that they considered the slave trade to be for ever
cotelemned and put an e tel to by Bee unanimous
voice of all nations, and tie .y exclaimed in the same lan-
guage that had been froquensiy u-eel ill that house against
the demoralising and slestruetive effects which the slave
trade Shad had 011 their country. It vsac quite la-
mentable to read the accJuatt which the different
memfers of the Brazilian government gave of thee
state of that country in the annual reports which
were Wel the other day on the table of the Brazilian parlia-
ment. There was neither education norjustice, nor any of those
arrangements which were peculiar to civilizeel countries,
and the Brazilians themselves attributed the want of all
these things to the prevalence of slavery in their country.
Therefore he said there did soon to be taking place in
Brazil a change of opinion which was
and gratifying. lie was convinced that if the present
eystern of repression was carried on for some time longer,
that there would grow up in Brasil a state of opinion
which would put it out of the power of the government,, if

it should wish it, to allow of the contiulanec of itio

slave trade. Ile trusted that by long perseverance this
country, if it did nut succeed altogether in putting an
end to the slave trade, would mince it to the very nar-
rowest limits.

Sir J. I'AKINGTON said he did not feel so sanguine
as the noble lord *wenn d to be that the Mace trade would
be permanently iliniiiii.lied to long as we contined to

givi7 it encouragement l v admitting slave labour
produce into this country. The Queens spen), at the
beginning of the session, contained an announcement that
the Brazilian government had been taking important mea-
sures for the repression of the slave trade ; the
noble lord hail just given the first explanation
they bad heard of that passage in km Majesty's sl s
Lord PALMERSTON said the slave trade papers for the
year were in preparation, and would contain all the juror-
motion the hon. gentleman required. In 1826 the Brazi-
lian government enteral into a treaty with Great Britain
in which they stipulated that the Brazilian slave trite should
be piracy, but the Brazilian government did not pass any
law to carry that provision into effect. With regard to Cuba
the slave trade had fur soul, year. beim reduced us compared
with the slave trade to Brazil. He certainly believcd that, in
consequence of the great mortality of slaves in Cuba from
cholera, there had been symptoms on the port of those en-
gaged in the trade to pursue it with greater activity ; but
the Spanish government hail given them (the British go-
ern me nt) to understand that they would exert their
authority to prevent it ; and he had no reason to believe
that any gnat increase had taken place in Cuba.
Mr. E. DENlSON:expressed his satisfaction at the speech
of the noble lord.

Mr. HUME was pleased at the result ; but that was not
owing to their increased exertions on the coast of Africa,
but to the change of opinion rn.mgst the Brazilians.
(Ilear, hear.) He believed it would have been produced
much sooner if their fleet had been withdrawn, and, if tho
Spanish government followed the example of the Bra-
zilian, it might be now withdrawn altogether.
. .

After a few words from Mr. Forsterr, Sir T. Acland, Sir
G. l'echell, and Lord 11. Vane,
Lord J. RUSSELL said after the statement of his noble
friend it was not necessary for hint to detain the committee,
but lie thought it desirable to say a few words lest it should
he misled by the advice of the hon. member for Montrose,
who recommended them to withdraw their squadron from
the coast of Africa—(hear, hear)—and said that the slave
trade could be more securely and promptly suppressed by
doing so. If that were dune he was afraid they might
again behold the horrors of the slave trade renewed.
(Hear, hear.) In saying that he was not stating his own
opinion, but that of Admiral Fanshawe, who had recently
returned from Africa, and whose opinion was that if
they continuer) the squadron for a few years longer it might
he greatly diminished and the expenses thereby reduced,
but that at would not be safe to make that redaction at
present. (Ikar, hear.) There remained the slave trade of
Cuba, in which there were some symptoms of increase.
lit trusted that the house, having given its support to the
government for their efforts to suppress the slave trade on
the coast of Africa and Brazil, would continue that support
for the purpose of suppressing it on the coast of Cuba.
Nothing of importance now remained but the slave trade of
Cuba, and the success in Brasil should encourage them to
persevere in their effbrts as regarded Cuba. His right hon.
friend at the head of the Admiralty had .beon very lately
considering measures for cutting oil the means of carrying
slaves to Cuba. (Rear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
14,6501. was voted tor the expense of the mixed commis-
sion.

On the next vote of 11:4,4091. for the expense of the con-
sular establishments abroad,
Mr. URQUHART moved that the chairman report pro-
_

°T.Orel :J. RUSSELL hoped that the hon. gentleman
would go on.
Mr. URQUHART said it was then past 12 o'clock, and
the house was exhausted. The hon. member concluded by
moving that the chairman report progress, and ask leave
to sit again.
Colonel SIBTHORP supported the motion.
Mr. C. Lewis, Mr. Brutherton, and Mr. Home, having
made a few remarks,
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER remiudcd
hon. members that the session ought to be coming to •
close, but unless they ant on more rapidly than heretofore,
it would be impossible to say when they might get through.
There were estimates yet to be gone over which would
occupy them four or five nights. his had anticipated that
the session would have been wound up about the beginning
of the second week in August, but ut the rate at which they
were proceeding, it would be quite out of the question to
expect that their labours would be brought to a close atthat
time.

After a short conversation, the committee divided—
For reporting progress 26
Against
The vote for the consular establishments having been
again put,
Mr. HUME moved that the chairman report progress.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the sense of the house had
been already efficiently tested. lie would not, however,
object to the chairman reporting progress, as, if hon. mem-
bers persevered, their time would only be wasted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEIt hoped that
hon. members would not in future take up so lunchtime
with motions preliminary to going into committee of
supply.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought their opportunities of bring-
ing forward the motions referred to were few enough.
lii
After some further conversation the house resumed, the
Chairman reported progress and asked lease to sit again.
CONVEYANCE OF MAILS BY RAILWAYS BILL.

On the motion for the s,vorsd reading of this bill,
Mr. REYNOLDS moved the adjournment of the house,
upon the ground that at that hour (twenty minutes to one
o'clock) there were no fewer than nine opposed Irish bills
on the paper.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the hon. member would paid-
pone his motion until the Irish bills were regularly
called on.

The motion was negatived without a division, and the
second reading of the hill was posToned.
MERCHANT SEAMENS ',CND BILL

This bill passed through committee.
MARRIAGES (INDIA) BILL.
This bill, as amend: d, was considered and agreed to.
VICTORIA PARK BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
CONSTABULARY FORCE (IREL.tND) BILL.

On the motion that this bill be read a second time,
Sir It. FERGUSON objotted to the memure,
After a few worth from Lord CLE,LSNTS and !dr. REY-
NOLDS,
The bill was read a second time.

:harasser." (Hew.) . His right ! desirable that the sewers and the water supply should
bout fear or favourtAgsghts we , under eontbigkgsmoggement, if no peasurcipould
in the national churds;.:(sms bad atm
~lIMF•ft.P.IO.I4 alik'sosul.p, k i
body, depressed in spi "t; he tu %propose mires temporary add Provisional am
of their lordshipsK , y jpeemnt sessile.
oder these ant • ' ,__MEGISTEAtION OF ALIENS.
-. Mr. DIVE•I7 asked Os noble lord whether be imp
I London, LA Casaikell• , and La,ll, Zs,. paredds sepal the set of Willie% IV., caned an act far
din believing hat the Justidaation oared registration of aliens ? The greatest anstoyane• was
Bishop of Gloucester, who had lately been penenced by foreigners coming to Folkestone and Dover,
another place," was fa and complete. account of that very absurd and useless law. (Cheers.)
then dimmed. - Lord J. RUSSELL said, that aliens were subjected

OWNERS AND LESSEES OF NINES (IRELAND)
12•1

sir W. SOMERVILLEmoved the second reading of
this Di 11.......

I;I;7IIiIEYNOLDS said that this was one of • romp of
bills manafaltursd iu the Castle of Dublin, and, as they
was like • cloud of locusts, he hoped they would be
rejected.
OTLAHERTY expressed his approval of the
measure.

Mr. ANSTEY thought it a strange objection to say that
the bill had been prepared in the Castle of Dublin.
After • few wordstruse Mr. HAMILTON and Col. Dottie,
the second reeding was postponed to Thunday.
GRAND JURY CESS (IRELAND).
Sir W. SOMERVILLE brought in • bill to ceatinas
certain temporary provisions relating to the collection of
grand jury ens in Ireland ; and also to provide froths due
annexation of ea isolated district, formerly of the minty
of Dublin, to a barony of the county of Wicklow, for the
purposes ef grand jury seas, and other purposes.
POOR LAWS.

Mr. BAINES brought ii a bill to continue the act for
eharging the maintenance of certain poor persons in unions
in England and Wales upon the common fund ; and to
make certain amendments in the laws for tho relief of the
Poor•
SALE OF BEER.

Sir J. TAKINGTON brought in a bill to amend the
Mae relating to the sale of beer.
The boom atbourned sh.atly aftkr one o'clock.

Mr. Scully paired for, with Mr. Bouverie against Mr.
Reynold:a motion on the grant to the Dublin Hospital.
Mr. Stuart Knox was accidentally shut out from voting
in favour of the continuum of the annual grant to the
Dublin Hospital

CLAN TILL—NATAL ANCHITECTIIIIIE. MILITANT ENO!.
NICERINO. XX. WE %PON+ se.
370. LIFE BUOYS, FLOATS, SWIMMING
MELTS. Lc —EDWARD BPUNCER NA Co.
supply army warloty of the rnort OIM"OI buoyant mon.
aro,. tor the PlthrlEtt V ATIoN sad RA Y the
rzitsos In the WATICIt. Their patent Drompart so 4
Wator.torbt Torok moreirom to elm. 0. No. P. M No-
lutotl..n) I. eepeethlle %Wald /kW I, hips popomMaon. sad
NI ralusbtes temoramed re oesarlocb. MIND limmororme
the OM' wham 4111111111 k.
rive e=lrth:i=eillWe law
genre. ieweeelal
attergtloo to tho=ood
Le. se Is IMP ineellellll,l6 mid warn
other bel • ood Sega R. S. sal Co. haft ask BMA
lintroe•intn,t, Is Os Tete 141.•1611 lbw szeliull
mostly rtelufalc=iiegl 14 es lb%
ClIgiNN.. tr. Woroloook 14 Par.
church etreetr MMoNM

Ithe •flrelti.