The Express.
London, England, 1849-05-18 00:00:00

derably altered, would not at all answer the purpose intended.
A committee had been appointed to inquire into the matter,
sad, singular enough to say, the government had proceeded
to intrieluce legislative enactments without waiting for their
report. The Indies features of this bill embodied the stag-
pintoes of the ministerial members of the committee, wholly
regardless of the opinions of those who were most
conversant with the subject. The enactment of a 6s. maxi-
mum rate, to be followed by one of 75., on the whole union
would, he feared, be an encouragement to insolvent districts
to strike the former rate at once in order to beteg in the
whole union. This he hoped would bus prevented in any
amendment piths law.
Mr. P. WHOPS took the principle of this bill to be the
establishment of • maximum rate, so far es that went, upon
the electoral division; to spreading the excess, when it rose
above • certain sum, over the union, he did not object, be-
lieving that the union rate on the whole, both for Ireland
and England, was the best foam that could be adopted. All
objections might be removed by fixing the maxi-
mum so high, that it would be brought into operation.
Of the oche r provisions of the bill he generally approved.
There were, however,. many omissions ; one was, that there
was no improvement in the way of securing that which the
bill professed to have for in object—vie., the more effectual
relief et the destitute poor in Ireland. The bill was confined,
as far as peal', to workhouse relief ; bat, to reconcile work-
house relief with pieeiples of humanity, it must be admi-
nistered in well regulated workhouses ; but there were few
workhouses in Ireland at present which could claim that
character. (Hear, hear.) In some of them the destru
of life now going on was most alarming, and the condition
of the paupers moth awful. In Ballinasloe workhouse they
had heard that of four thousand inmates four hundred and
ninety had perished within one week. At Kumar' the
paupers were without any change of clothes, living and
sleeping in .the filthy rags in which they had enter“. In
Skibbereen six and eight persons were crowded together in
one bed three and a halt feet by six feet. Was it to be
wondered at that under such circumstances people preferred
rather to die out of doers than to enter buildings under such
regulations? (Hear, hear.) He suggested that in admi-
nistering the relief, a greater responsibility than now existed
should be thrown upon ,ome person or another. In Rog-
land formerly the magistrate had the power of ordering re-
lief, such order being imperative. He would not say that
that plan should be adopted in Ireland ; but he wished that
some person should be appointed whose duty should be to
give compulsory orders in oases of necessity, for it was not
sufficient security that the relieving officer might be dis-
charged if the pauper died. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE thought that some member of the govern-
ment should inform the house why this subject bad been
referred to a committee up stairs, and that committee not
having yet reported, the bill was brought forward at this time.
Tkis appeared to him an extraordinary proceeding, because
if they ware not to wait for the committee's report, what
was the use of appointing a committee at all ? Why was
not the bill brought in on the first day of the session ? The
ninth clause of the bill which gave a man seven yeses to pay
for agricultural improvements, was no bonus, and he hoped
that in committee twenty-one years would be substituted.
There was another point: crown and quit rents were now
exempt from the poor rate altogether. They amounted to
between 60,0001. and 70,0001., moat of which had been spent
in ornamenting Trafalgar-npuire. He saw no reason why
these lands shou'd not be subjected to rates, and the produce
devoted to the relief of the destitute. The hoe. gentlemen
(Mr. &rope) talked of reclaiming the waste lands. That
experiment bad been already tried at Mount Mallory and
failed. It was merely deluding the Irish people to suppose
that they could support the poverty of Ireland by any such
system of poor law as now existed, or by any peddung change
such as that now proposed.
Lord C. HAMILTON complained of an omission in the
bill of all reference to the question of settlement, and called
upon the government to take that most important subject
into their consideration, and to legislate upon it while the
present measure was passing through committee.
Mr. CALLAGHAN did not rise to offer any opposition
to the bill, but merely to make a suggestion, which he had
been asked to do by several individuals who felt themselves
aggrieved. It would be in the recollection of the house,
that the former per-law bill exempted the occupiers of
crown property in Ireland from the payment of poor rates ;
but he humbly submitted that this exemption should now be
done away with, aad ht the occpiers in question should
be made to contributtea their fair proportion towards the
relief of distress.
Colonel DUNNE maid the hon. member for Middlesex had
asked why the present bill should be pressed through the
house while there was a cemmittee sitting up stairs to in-
quire into the operation of the poor law in Ireland. He
(Cal. Dunne) could answer the question. He believed that
that committee would not submit a report, and that they
were doing nothing. It was composed, amongst others, of
the hon. member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), who, be was
convinced, would do mischief—(laughter)—and who had the
committee completely under his Influence. lie should
not oppose the second reading of the present bill, because
it contained several provisions of which he highly ap-
, but he was convinced that in itself it would be per-
fectlyd
futile.
Mr. H. HERBERT speed in the opinion expressed by
other hoc. members, that the details of the present bill
ought to be discussed at a future stage. If it were not for
the awful state in which Ireland was placed, with the poor
law utterly breaking down in that country, he should cer-
tainly divide the house upon the second reading, believii.g
that the principle now involved was of a dangerous and mis-
chievous character. But he should not throw any obstacle
in the way at preseut, hupieg that sonic amendments would
be made in committee to render the bill, what it was not at
present, beneficial. The principle of a union rate was
the main principle of the measure. It was the
most important principle of the poor law, and one
that ought to be brought forward on its own merits,
and not in a roundabout manner. The way in which it was
now sought to be established afforded ground for the com-
plaint so often urged by the Irish members, that they wete
not afforded a tangible argument with which to grapple.
Many hon. members seemed willing to advocate %anon-
rating on its own merits; but he wished that any one of
them would urge it as applicable to both England and Ire-
land, and let it be fully and fairly discussed. lie believed
that the attempt they were now making would be
fruitlees—that it would drag down those portions
of the country which could now maintain them-
selves to the level of the insolvent, and that
this time twelve months, matters would be muse in the
sister country than they were at present. (Hear) Why
should the Irish members be met with • derisive smile when
they touched the subject of the area of taxation, particularly
when they firmly believed that the largeness of the area
was the great cause of the evils of Ireland ? The average of
the electoral divisions over the whole ofd e
amounted
to 986,300 acres of 4,7361. in value ; and the only part of
the country in which there was even an approximation to the
English area, was Ulster. How was it that that which was
good for England, would
ter a
equally good for Ireland
also ? The largeness of the area had virtually destroyed
all energy in several places. This was not an unadvised as-
sertion. He had received, two days before, an account of
the state of the workhouse in his owe union. The numbers
in that house on the Bth of May were 3,232. Houses built
for domestic,
.commercial, and other purposes were obliged
to be turned into common receptacles for the poor. Even
the house of God had been entered by them. The day be-
fore he left home the priest appeared before the board of
guardians at the request of the Roman catholic bishop, and
stated that in consequence of the unruly conduct of
the poor creatures, it was impossible that the service of
religion could be proceeded with, and that he should
be obliged to prevent them from coming to the chapel.
The board of guardians of his own union had for-
warded a memorial in 1847, which had not been attended
to, and the consequence was that there were 13,000 persons in
the union now receiving relief. He did not say that any
alteration of the: w would have prevented peat distre.s.
He did not charghe government with having caused the •
famine ; but he did allege, that if the memorial had been
attended to the landed proprietor would have been doing his
duty at the present moment, instead of being sunk in de-
spair; and that the hundreds who were now in the work-
house, eating the daily dole which was barely sufficient to
sustain a miserable existence, would be honestly earning the
bread of industry by the sweat of their brow. Strong
language of this nature was justified when he saw bon.
' gentlemen opposite listening to vague suggestions and
theorising about the disturbance of • -labour market which
did not exist. (Hear, hear.) The Tr lee union was hope-
lessly bankrupt. In 1847 the board of guardians there
sailed upon the Poor Law Commissioners precisely in the
same way to exercise their power under the act, and to have
the electoral divbioas reduced. The electoral divisions of
Tralee averaged 26,000 acres, and they stated that if their
request were acceded to they would endeavour to meet the
wide. Their language now was, that unless money was
out to them they could neither relieve nor check the distress
existing in that once prosperous union. He, there-
fore, charged the government with having changed the
language of honest self-dependence into that of hopelees
beggary, which now had no resource but the imperial ex-
chequer. (Hear.)
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said, that although most of the
hon. gentlemen who addressed the house had admitted that
those matters of detail would be better considered in com-
mittee, yet, at the same time, it was not to be expected that
• measure of this kind could be proposed to the house with-
out exciting considerable diemnsion. The hon. member
for Middlesex had been rather inconsistent in bringing
his charge spinet the government. Hs (Sir W.
Somerville) was told, when he had the honour of
proposing the appointment of • committee to
consider the Irish poor-law, that it was the duty of the go-
vernment to come forward and propose manures—to take
upon themselves that responsibility at once, and not to wait
for the report of the committee. (Hear.) Considering what
had taken place in the last melon, he thought the govern-
meat would have been guilt of a breach of faith, and of the
distinct understanding which had been entered into, if they
had not at the commencement of the present session proposed
that committee. The committee bad now been sitting a
very long time, and if the government had waited for their
report, it would have been said that, at the conclusion of the
session they had come forward with theirmeesure when hon.
members had no opportunity of discussing it in detail.
His hon. friend who spoke last accused him of not answer-
ing the question why the area of taxation in Ireland should
not be reduced to the extent of that in England.
He had no recollection of his having put that question to
hint He had certainly asked hint why the request of the
Killarney board of guardians to reduce the areaof taxation
had not been conceded, and on two or three occasions his
hon. friend proceeded to:do what he had now done—charge
the government with theresponsibility of having interfered
with the prosperity of that union. His hon. friend seemed
to be of opinion that the poor law ousesissiocers of Ireland
were bound to give their meant to any proposal of that kind
when memorialised 'by the union or county so to do.
There was no doubt that the commiesionere were em-
powered to do so by acts of parliament; but those acts

also vested in them the discretion of refusal ; and on and
cc 'anion alluded to by his boa. hiend be thought they had
exercised a wise discretion in refusing to give effect to %I
Daemons]. It wee a very serious thing for an e lenitive body
such as the! poor law commissioners to make an alte "
which would take taxation off one set of men and place it on
another. He bad always been of opinion that if any pit
project should be carried into effect it should be by a een.
mission specially appointed for the purpose. He wild eg
but feel that if the request in the memorial were UMW
the cue collector would have been received with gram die
!ideation by three on whom the additional burden of taxatik
would be thrown. They had tried the experiment in a buth
in the county of Carlow by dividing an electoral division; bit
it gave rise to the greatest dissatisfaction on the put of th*
who had to pay the increased portion of the taxiiiie. 111.
were even accused of unworthy motives in making tyt
division—of desiring to remove a certain amount of lust*
from one genUemen whom he would not name, ill it vs
necessary, and place it upon soothe?. There was set*
slightest foundation for that charge. He, therefore, the
that it would be • a most dangerous thing for the sees
miesieners to undertake to do ; and few that reason was 14
and not through disrespect or contempt of the memorial, tist
its request had not been conceded.

---
V. SMITH maid that all the discussions which hidi
yet taken place were upon omissions from the bill. gowis
wished to make a remark upon something that wash%
bill—something, too, which seemed to him to contain/obit
a novel principle. He did not approve of the clonal esti
hon. member for Middlesex; on the contrary, he tiss
the course of the government on this subject
been most useful, and, more than anything else, eis,,
tributed to exhibit the rotten social state of Ireland. (ate,
hear.) He thought they were right in appoint* th
committee in which the hon. member for Manchester*
with his usual energy, made himself heard and felt; yak*
thought the government would have been justly etungstg,
with delay if they had postponed this bill until the eft.
mittee reported. 'What he wanted to know was, when th
maximum rats was exhausted, who was to contribnte th
amount necessary beyond it for the relief of the poor-4,
land or the consolidated fund? Seeing the hon. mesh
for the county of Limerick take hie seat reminded him*
the subject of emigration was omitted from this bill, eedis
thought it would be a favourable opportunity for has
introduce it.

----
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to address the house enters,
three points; and first as to the question just put by MHO
hon. friend—namely, how, atter the maximum rap m
exhausted, the poor were to be relieved. If the case gm
that the poor of Ireland had been relieved by rates moms
ing to 8s , 10e., or 125 in the pound, and that the emu,
meat were now asking the house to supply the 141
of the excess of !that rate over 7s. by any mm
from that house or by any national rate be Irece
he thought the question might create serious app,
Winston ; but the fact was different. The fact was the
that in those unions in which the amounts of rates war
from being so excessive, sums had been required from%
country to supply the wanteof those unbars. If that sego
it showed that, in the abstract declaration of the law that*
whole land of the unions was liable to the relief of the me
there was no security that the people would be Ming,
was a mistake to suppose that there was a seventy ions
Present law, because the whole property of the salon ea
liable. In the papers laid before parliament of thi
expenditure of 60,0001. for various unions, the *Ma
amount for any one union to the lst of April we
co:ildectedfd, great
yet,
ts thatfrodi thedd
8,2151. to Bailin*, and he found that the last rate, tag
, the second rate, for that union, dated 21st September,l9B,
was • rate of 31. lid. He had desired a return to be le
oished of all the rates made since the close of March,horhald2e.h had
required
and by it he found that while in some electoral dieisims
whic
been
npin s
rata
of
f
house were the unions In which the rates hid bunny
35., Is. 6d., or 4s. 21. If that be so, it wee a proof theta*
had no security against being called upon for aid is that*
strict declaration of the law. It might be slid the
the rate in then unions had not been fairly canid seal
that a much larger amount might have been laid thistle.,
45.; but the inspectors and other perfectly impanel est*
rities hid testified that they had been collected with tle
utmost severity—so far, indeed, as in many instances dm
vent the cultivation of the land. He inferred from the
facts, first, that, with a small amount of rata, the
might be a great amount ed distress; and, stoical,
that the collection of that rate to • severe nue
created alarm respecting the cultivation of the Ind
It appeared to him that there was no way of farthing*
object of giving relief to the destitute poor then by pig
some security in favour of a limit, be it how it might, ehe
tber upon electoral divisions or unions, beyond which the
who cultivated the land should be 'soured that they sell
not be obliged to pa y further rates. (Hear, hear.) By e
doing they incensed the funds of relief to the poor, sad the
was the great obje ct. If there was a declaration that all th
lands in Ireland should be subject to those rates, al
those rates were not collected, they did not elk
their object. But if they increased the va'us of
property from 20,0001. to 30,0004 and had a 7e. rate spa
it, they would do much better than by reducing thong
of the 20,0001. to 8,0001. and getting • rate of 14s. front
The view he took of it was this—that, by nuke cell
certain amount of taxable property, they increased define
to the relief, while they promoted the improvement and*
tivation, of the land. The question still recurs d, that ohm
might Leeman unions in which, after having ccl t code& sad
• 2s. rate, these still would remain an amount of destitution
for which those rates would not provide. If his right his
friend asked him whether he would resort to a national este
aid or to the consolidated fund, his answer would be, thus
a general principle a rate in aid should not be enactede
condoned in Ireland. Rethought it perfectly defensible it
the present state of Ireland, but that it should not oe slops
ed as • system. (Hear, hear.) He would not content loth
further continuance of the bill by which they had e-tabliihn
a rate in aid. Respecting the consolidated lund, he did
not think it would be any ground for calling upon the
fund to say that the 7s. rate had been found insufficient
It would be much better to leave those which were still It
f be relieved to such sources as they had before the poor 10
was introduced in 1837, than to allow that any amount d
taxation should constitute • claim upon the consolidated fag
, The consequence of that would be that there would be great
want and extravagance in the administration of relief, sal
that the amount would be soon exhausted. Whereas,
they retained their maximum, the amount of chi
rate would be administered with economy; there Irak
then be a question as to who would be entitled to relief;
end many persons now receiving relief and not entitled to
it, would be put off the list, and the really destitute hews
better chance of relief. He therefore said at once that de
posing of this measure with a maximum rate would not
give the least reason or claim for imposing any naked rate ie
• aid in Ireland or for making any charge upon the soma-
dated fund. He thought, on the other hand, that they
would better provide for the effectual relief of the
poor by increasing the cultivation of the land sal
the amount of income derivable from the WA
thereby not only affording. greater means for gine
relief to the poor, but conferring a benefit on other chew
of the people. On these grounds he thought the maximal
rate perfectly defensible. One honourable spotless
after another asked if the government were about to ea*
blish a small area of taxation without defining prectholl
what they meant by a large er 'small area. Then the hat
member for Kerry said he really thought the governata
were guilty of the troubleaand distress now prevailing in as
rain unions, because the poor law commissioners had
sn
• agreed to a certain division of the electoral divisions. Le
the lion, gentleman conceive this case, wherein is
commissioners and the government might sup**
that the distress would be aggravated by a de
vision such as was recommended. Suppose a one
proprietor were told that he was to have an electoral din*
entirely to himself, and not be chargeable with the mod
any other district. Ile might take one of two courses;
sal
the government and the commissioners could not preterite
which. He might think that his land was capable d
greater cultivation, and that it would be profitable to his
self, and advantageous to his tenantry and labourers, to in
out a large sum in labour. (Haar, hear.) Or he nth
take a different course, and, teeing in this an opportunityd
freeing himself from the burden of poor rates, he might de
termine to get rid of the paupers on his estate, and to nab
tome disbursements for the purpose, one of which won
provide for them during more than six months, as the
when the time came to be computed during which the, In
been resident, it might appear that they had been more thus
Ms months out of the electoral division. (Hear.) By thet on
trivance, he would be enabled to disembarrass himself of no
charge of those persons, who would become destitute lieu_
and chargeable to some other union. (Hear, hear.) hid
the government adopted that particular recommended*,
and had such been the consequence, they would have Men
answerable for the distrees chargeable on those very divkiora.
This was not a one.sided quettion; unluckily, it bed two
sides. (Hear, hear.) The charge which had been font
times brought by the right hon. member for Northempto
against the government on this ground had been four time
answered by the right hon. baronet near him (Sir W. So
merville). (Hear, hear.) He conned this wss • riff
important subject, and one which ought not to be waived, st
some hon. gentlemen seemed to say. Some propose!! flute
electoral division of 9,000 acne should be out into foe
equal portions by drawing straight lines emu it;
bat
the operation required much greater care than the
The government had appointed • commission for di
purpose ; the head commissioner had made his first se
port, and he was now returning to Ireland with the intent*
of carrying out the recommendations of those boundary en,
missioners. He would reserve any remarks on the detailed
the measure till the bill went into committee.
Mr. HORSMAN considered this measure as not only the
most important of the session, but perhaps the most imported
that had ever been submitted to the house. He believed the
government bad brought it forward with the very best le'
tentions ; and he agrees with the right hon. baronet the
Secretary for Ireland th, forgetting everything else, the"
ought to unite in securing that which was best for the pool,
of Ireland, and for the country at large. (Hear, hen)
The opinions he might express, therefore, would to
rather in the way of friendly criticism. The
poor law in Ireland, was in reality • reconstruction ofd
whole social system in that country, the well-being ,
existence of every class depending on a wise amendment of
that law. The question was daily deepening in importance.
After three years' experience of suffering and famine, trials
lecidatior, properly so called, had still to be commenced.
Hitherto, the measures of the legislature had only gone to
aggravate misery, and to prolong,. without preserving life
(Hear,' hwy.) He adhered to theopinion he had expressed
the first Irish debate Milne session, that three measures were
essentially necessary, thte sale of ineumbered estates --
limited liability to poor-rates--and amistance to landlords
disposed to make improvements. One excellent measure the
government had introduced, the bill* facilitate sales; but it
would be of no use without a measure to stimulate purchased.
'The bill before the house he feared would have in
opposite effect. In Ireland, regulations were near