The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-10 00:00:00

bit has saiditheito and it has appeared in all the paper, I I not issued what remedy was to In adeeted. poet.
submit, whetherm justice to the boo. member forWestmeath objection which was now made that had the effect of pose,
and to the house, he should not state the grounds on *shish he poning the bill would postpone the issuing Of Cie ants toe
made that statement, and who the secrelited agent was. boroughs effected by the bill. The bill applied to Chatkamo
(Hear, hear.) I think some elucidation of these points will Rochester, Sandwich, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Harwich,
be satisfactory to the house and the country. (lean) and Pembroke ; and it awi it was moved for fur oily of they
Mr. MAGAN—With regard to the notice which has been 1 places it must be suspended till the Lill was p ...ed. hoe
given me, I certainly heard a rumour that it was the in-
at'
some of the questions which were now before the Doen.
tention of the hon. gentleman to put the question, but at yard Committee must come before the house, he e mild pow
the same time there was a rumour that it was to be openly , pone the introduction of the bill until Friday se', might, bat
pat on the paper. It has not been put on the paper. lam not for any longer time.
placed in an awkward position. I might name a gentle- Lord A. VANE here rose, and was understood to he •
mat, who was absent. I will not do so until the question is about to ask a eitiestion, when
put on the paper. I will nut strike a man behind his back. Tho SPEAKER interposed and said that the ruble lord
(Cheers, " oh," and confusion.) I will answer the ques- I had already put a question oar going into comme ee.
hon if it is put on the paper. Sir F. KELLY said he understood the noble lord to •
Lord A. VANE (amidst much noise and confusion) was pone the introduction of the bill in question tint 1 after the
understood to say that the hon. member for Westmeath had report of the Dockyard Committee was brought up.
used the words "accredited agent," and he should have ord J. RUSSELL—No, until Friday se'aniieit.
thought the government would have been anxious to have Sir F. KELLY was understuo Ito ask if toe writ fur
the question answered. (" Oh," " question," and cheers.) Chatham would issue ?
Colonel DUNNE (who spoke amid much confusion) Lord J. RUSSELL-1 propose that the writs oil be sus•
thought the scene now going on was not very creditable to pended.
the house. As an Irish member he had felt deeply the THE INCOME TAX.
observations made in the newspapers with regard to the The house having then gone into committee ri ways sod
conduct of the Irish members. If the Irish mem- means, the discussion on the income tax reselut. ni was To-
bets had made such a bargain as had been alleged turned by
he did not think it was dishonourable, for if I Mr. It. PALMER, who moved the ten, Jelment of
he wasabout to support a government, he should which he had given notice—viz., after the word. •• for every
expect some pledge front them as to the measures they 20s. of the annual value or amount thereof." he'll ° such
would introduce, and, if he had been a party to such a bar- annual value of any lands, tenements, or le r• •iitainente
gain, he would not shrink from it. But, as it was all over being the net annual value thereof, atter One allows
the town well known who was alluded to, why should ante made for repairs, insurance, and monieement."
not the question be answered (as we understood) ? Ile The hon. gentleman spoke in so low a tone of yoke as to
thought the way in which Irish members had been spoken render it impossible for us to fu nish a tonneau, report of
of in the public prints, said to be the organs of the govern- his remarks ; but the purport of his observations, es we un.
ment, was shameful, and he felt it moat deeply. The allu- derotood them, was this. Ile had fully made uo his mind
sions which had been made to certain members were so that this was to be a permanent, and not a tereourary tax;
clear, that it would be better for the members who were and, as they were about to renew it for seven so ars, it be:
' known to be aliuded to to get up and say that they had log quite certain that in 1500 it would be imam renewed,
I done what it was stated they had. The matter ought to be this was the obvious opportunity for the eerie eltural into.
cleared up ; but it would be for the advantage of the public rest to endeavour to get the impost reviewed so far as ire
service that such discussions as this should not take place incidence affected them unfairly. His argument WSJ of the
is that house. The newspapers had given a challenge, and simplest character—that the nominal value of pr perty was
'mentioned names, and why should not this question be no criterion of the actual returns to the proprietor; and
straightforwardly answered ? his proposal was that is assessing land a deutietion from
Mr. MALINS said that these proceedings were not the gross rental should be made of certain thanes—such as
creditable to the house. lie had heard the hon. member for repairs, insurance, and management. The Chancellor
for Westmeath say that the Irish members were waited on of the Exchequer had himself admitted that there were
by an accredited agent of the I'eelite and whig parties, who peculiar burdens on the land ; and the right boo. gentleman
made this proposal to them—" If you will vote against Lord would find some difficulty in offering any valet argument
Derby's government, we will protect you against the im- against a proposition to place the farmer on an equal foot.
position of the income tax." Now, either that was correct ing, in respect to allowances, under this tax, with shop.
Of it was incorrect. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) If it keepers. The right hon. gentlemen would probooly memo
was incorrect, it was the duty of the hon. member for that they (the country gentlemen):were not istoled to urge
Westmeath to explain and retract his assertion ; but if it such an amendment as this, inasmuch as when Mr. Disraeli
was correct it was a grave imputation against the great was in office he hod not offered any such con-
party now in office, and at a time when we heard so much cession to the land ; but the answer to tl at was, that
,of purity, and discussions arose as to whether writs should Mr. Disraeli had not brought forward an exteio;on of the
Issue ; when gentlemen were unseated by the conduct of legacy duty; and it was this proposed increased weight of
parties over whom they had no control whatever, when taxation to be thrown on the land that justified sad re-
to-night there was a discussion whether tha writ for liar- quired such a modification as ho (Mr. Palmer) asked the
with should issue ; because the house wished to government and the house to make.
preserve purity of election, he would ask it it was Mr. ALCOCK should have been glad to see the income
decent or proper, when an hon. member rose and stated tax extended to all classes, even to wages; and it would be
that the accredited agent of two great parties had made a remembered that he had given notice of an
proposal which, if it was made, was most discreditable, that amendment to that effect on Mr. Disraell's budget.
tomb a statement should be allowed to pass unnoticed. At present only 5,400,000/. was obtained train the income
There was no one in the house who did not perfectly well tax ; and the proportion of payment was about this—et
know who the accredited agents were, and it was due to people in the United Kingdom paid nothing, and the pith
them that that imputation should either be verified or over- person paid at the rate, on the average, of 13/. per annum.
thrown. (Hear, hear.) lle (Mr. Alcock) would be glad to see a direct too like this
Lord J. RUSSELL—in answer to the hon. member for brought down to persons obtaining wages of ten shillings
Cambridgeshire-1 stated that to the best of my knowledge a week, the result of which would be that 5,000,000
end belief no one accredited by the whig party made any more persons would contribute, and that the average
such compact. (Hear. hear.) I ask the hou. gentleman then would be thirty shillings a head per annum.
who has just sat down whether he believes me or does not If the right hon. gentleman extended the income tax to
believe me 1 (Great cheering.) I ask the hon. gentleman wages, and derived from it 13,000,000/. instead of 5,400,0005.
if he me its to sup that I made any such agreement or bars it would enable them not only to reduce the tea duty to le,
, gain with the Irish members, and, if he does not mean to and to get rid of the soap tax, but to reduce the tobacco duty
say that, let him say whom he means. (Loud cheers.) from 3s. 2d. a lb. to Is. per lb., and to abolish the malt and
Mr. MALINS—Every statement of the noble lord will hop duties. The labour.ng man would be Cn coiner by
be received by me with implicit credence ; but the noble such% change to a considerable extent. Ile calculated that
lord stated that ho had not authorised any one to make the: savings in the year on ten, soap, malt, oed tobacco
such a compact. (Hear, hear.) I wish to impress on the to the labourer, who earned 12s. a week, would be 2/.3i.
house that that is not the question. (Hear, hear.) The per year, so that even if he had to pay income 1..1 he would
question is not whether the noble lord authorised such an gain U. 4s. a year by the change. He w..s surprised
offer, but whether accredited agents did its fact make it. that the right hon. gentleman who expressed so much Tn.
(Hear, hear.) If the noble lord has accredited agents who pithy for those who paid the income tax, did not reserve
go so much beyond their authority—(cheers, and cries of some of it for those who paid the malt and hop duties, or
" spoke," amidst which the hon. member sat down.) fur those who paid 4,000,000/. of tobacco duty. It was
Mr. G. MOORE—We have been a long time beating calculated that 56,000,000 lbs. of tobacco was consumed in
about the bush, I will go to the point. (" Hear, hear," and this country, yet only 28,000,000 paid duty ; so that the dd.
cheers.) Loyself know nothing of thistransaction. (" Hear," ference must be either smuggled or adulterated. It was
and laughter.) I ant in no way influenced by the declaration no use to say that smoking was a dirty prectiee, for they
which it is stated was made, for the simple reason that I had a smoking-room in that very house. (" Dear, Lear,
never heard it. But I have heard, and every one has and laughter.) With regard to the legacy duiv, the pro-
heard who the accredited agent is, and I will go to the position of the government was bailed with sen4actiou by
point by asking the right hon. gentleman the member for the whole country, and there was but one opinion as to this
Wells to say
.whether he was the agent for such a purpose. manliness and courage of the right hon. gentleman who
(Great cheering and laughter.) proposed it. (Hear.)
Mr. HAYTER-1 beg to thank the boo. member for , Mr. MILES thought that the budget of the government
Mayo for bringing this question to a point. I have some ' dealt hardly with the owners of real property. 'limy were
reason to complain of the course taken by the hon. mem- now to be subjected to the legacy duty in addition to ton
her for Cambridgeshire. I saw him as he entered the and ether burdens, and under such circumstances he thought
house, and I asked him if he was about to they were fairly entitled to ask the Chancellor of the Es-
put a question to me on this matter? lie replied chequer to assent to the proposition of his lion. triead.
that he had submitted a notice which he had placed on (Hear.)
the table, but on account of some informality he should Captain SCOBELL observed, in reply to Mr. Miles, that
be unable to put the question in the form and at the time the amount of poor rate and other 'barges on the land had
he had originally decided to do so. I begged him to put considerably diminished since 1519, and there was every
the question in a formal manner, so that I might prospect that the landed interest would continue to prosper.
be enabled to give a plain answer to a plain question— Tho object of all parties ought to be to make a fair
(hear, hear)—and had he had the courtesy to have complied and equitable budget. Such a budget he believed the
with my request, much that has passed, and painfully present to be, and such also was the opinion of the reentry
pawed, in the house to-night might have been spared. It was a budget of equivalents, and must be token as a
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman took occasion when I whole. He could not, therefore, support the propoeitiou of
was not present to refer to this matter. Ile knew, for I the hon. member for Berkshire. (Cheers.)
had said so, that I was anxious to be present, and I trust Mr. PHILIPPS said that his own feeling was is favoar
the house will not think that I now shrink from, or at any of a graduated income tax, but he felt there were great
time wished to shrink from, giving an answer to that guess difficulties in the way of carrying out such a eraduation.
tion. Another hon. gentleman, the member for Wicklow, Looking at the budget as a whole, he was prepared to accept
also came to me, and said The would ask a similar question'; it as a choice between something and nothing—between'
and I told hint that I should be obliged to him if he would distinct scheme of taxation and no scheme at all.
defer it until to-morrow, and put it on the paper, as I should Mr. L. HEYWORTH reminded the house that the its.
then know the distinct Charge, which up to this moment I position of a tax of 5,000,0001. per annum had been the
did not know. I told him I was deairous of commas- medium of 'emitting 11,060,0001., and still leaving the
nicatiog with another honourable member before answer- Exchequer iii a better state than it was previously. The
ing a question Involving such • charge. (Hear, hear.) country was every day becoming more and more enlighte
No arrangement was made with me by the two hon. mein- ened on the subject ; and having heard it stated that the
hers, and the question has arisen which I have not for a working classes strongly objected to the lowering of the tax
moment misunderstood, but no positive question has been so as to make it apply to them, he was happy to say that he
put to me. I now understand the hon. member for Cam- had attended meetings at which after hearing the matter
bridgesbire to say that some agent, or alleged agent, of the put fairly belore them they had nut expressed any %los
party now called the whig party, during the discussion of sition•
the financial scheme of the late Chancellor of the Ezehe- Mr. BUCK wished hon. gentlemen opposite would, is
quer, took on himself to attend on • body of Irish gentle- connexion with this subject, eensider the case of one of the
men, amid to state that he was authorised to make this most industrious classes in this country—he meant the
arrangement, namely, that if they gave their votes for the small freeholders, of whom there were not lees than 4,000
purpose of overthrowing the late government, the govern- in the county which lie represented (Devonshire). Here
meat which would be founded on the ruins of the late were persons who for the must part had acquired land by
government would not impose the income tax on Ireland. *Or own industry, and upon senora the burdens al land
Do I understand the hon. gentleman rightly ?—(Mr. Ball fell very heavily.
' was understood to assent.) Then I will say I never autho- Mr. AGLIONBY said they were told that they must
rised any person or body ofpersons to make any such coins take this measure ea a whole ; but admittieg that, be had
munieation to any person—l never attended any meeting never heard, in the course of his experience, that because
?tam life, that lam aware, of Irish gentlemen—l never they accepted a measute as a whole, they were not to ta-
to any person at any time that I authorised them deavour to amend any of its parts. (Cheers from the op-
hi
my name to state, that in the event of the overthrow position.) if they failed in their efforts to maid it, it
of
Lord Derby's government, the government which took would still be open to them to take it with its evils. He
the place of Lord Derby's government would undertake not thought nothing could be more fair and reasonable than the
be impose the income tax on Ireland. I have now answered proposition of the hon. member fur Berkshire.
the question of the hoe. gentleman, and if he had put it Colonel HARCOURT having voted for the proposal of
plainly, as he ought to have done, he would have got that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, for continuing the
answer before this. (Loud cheers!) income tax for three years, with precisely the same provi-
Mr. E. BALL—I bog to say that I did put the question eions as to land and houses as the present measure eon-
fully and fairly on Friday night last, and I do not under- tained, he could not reconcile it to his sense of justice to
stand the right hon. gentleman's saying I never did put it. vote for an amendment which woald, by taking a portion
In the next place, I beg to say that if the right hon. gentle- of the tax from land and houses, throw a heavier tat on
man thought he was the person on whom the imputation trades and professions. If the proposal were however
rested—(" oh, oh," cheers, and confusion)—he ought to brought forward as a substantive measure, he should sup-
have been toe eager to deny it to require notice of the port its principle as one of justice.
question. (" Hear, heir," and cheers.) Mr. SPOONER was not aware the house came to any din
Mr. MAGAN—The mistake which has been made is in tinct vote on the income tax as proposed in the budget of his
taking it for granted that I meant the right hon. gentleman right hon. friend (Mr. Disraeli)—and had the qui stioo bees,
opposite. (. Hear, bear," - --hter, and cheers.) The brought directly under discussion he should have voted, Sr
. . .
',ether, he had always done, s -Met a property tax in time of peaces
. .

, ,
words I used were these—(l spoke in the plural numne.,
and the right hon. gentleman is not in the p 1 .ral number)
—(l..ughter and cheers)—l send certain persons, accredited
agents, and using the word " accredited, ' made this com-
munication. They were three private Irish members.
(" Name," and cheers.) I will not name them till a notice
is put on the paper, so that they may be in the house to
hear me. I believe some of them are not now in the house.
Sir J. SHELLEY had hoped, after what had already oc-
curred, these bickerings among bon. gentlemen would have
ceased. As regarded the hon. member for Cambridgeshire
he was not surprised at the sensitiveness that hon. gentle-
man had shown, for nothing could he so odious and detest-
able to him as promises not fulfilled. The hon. member
must feel that, for when we looked back to the way in
which the wbig government had been displaced—(great
cheering)—by Lord Derby's promising his party from one
and to the other, that they should have protection back
again—(cheers and confusion)—he was not surprised at the
sensitiveness of the hon. member for Cambridgeshire.
(Cheers.)
Mr. G. MOORE wished to explain that in putting the
question he had to the right hon. gentleman the member
for Wells he did not wish to point him out as the person
indicated, but he had heard everywhere that he was so in-
dicated, and he thought it fair and right to terminate a
matter which must have heen exceedingly annoying to the
right hon. gentleman. That was his sole reason for putting
the question.
Colonel KNOX wished to ask to know whether three
Irish members did not wait on the meeting alluded to, and
were authorised as a deputation to make the offer which had
been mentioned?
Mr. HAYTER—I wish the hon. gentleman would put
his question on the paper. llowever, I will answer him
now, by saying that no such thing ever occurred. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY said his right hon. friend must be
greatly obliged by having the question put to W.', and he
hoped that the matter was now done with. (Loud cheers.)
lie did not think any one ever really entertained any belief
in the truth of the statement—(sheers, counter-cheers, and
confusioe)—and as it hail been denied, he hoped the house
would now proceed to the business Wore it (Loud cheers.)
The matter then dropped.
DISFRANCHISEMENT OF PERSONS IN DOCK-
YARDS.
Sir F. BARING put a question to his noble friend
friend (Lord John Russell) with reference to shill of which
he had given notice for disfranchising labourers and per.
sone employed in dockyards.
Lord J. RUSSELL (who was very imperfectly heard)
said that in the lint place the bill he propo.e.l was not at
all lquiiiled on the inquiry now going on hi f,ro the com-
mittee, but on the report at the committee which sat on the
election for the borough of Chatham. When that report
was brought before the house there was some question
made as to the issuing of the writ, and it was asked if it was

-"Y, &trail
The tax was peculiarly severe as against land—for, while
there was a deduction on acceunt of houses for loss of writ
when tenants ran awk,, in the case of land no deduction
was allowed.
Mr. DRUMMOND observed that it was admitted on all
hands that land bore mare burdens than any other class of
property. (" No, no," from Mr. Bright.) Oat hon.
member dissented from this view ; but it was generally ad-
mitted by the house, and it lied been acknowledged by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. (near, hear.) The right
hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proposed
to allow certain qualificati,ns in imposing the tax on land,
one of which was a deduction for management. This, how-
ever, could not affect the ease of the large proprietor; the
small freeholder would obtain no benefit from it. He
thought it would be more advantageous to discuss there
details in committee on the bill. (near, bear.)
Mr. BRIGHT had heard the statement as to land ',deg
so he wily taxed ever since he had been in that house,.tld
the course of legislation of late years bad limn to diminish
the exclusive privileges of land, and now they found the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was about to include a large
number of farmers under the if:come tax, and ti impose
the legacy duty on real property (" Hear, hear," from
the opuosition.) Ile applauded the right hon. gentleman
or so doing; and that, being convinced the course he
ook when a young man was wrong, ho was determiued to
bandon it, and carry out what he felt to be the oolitic'
prind; le. But the right lion. gentleman appeared to be 1.11
somewhat of a difficulty in this matter. When he brought
forward his budget he stated that land paid on the eerie,
instead of on the net income, and therefore paid Pd. iii.tcad
of id. is the pound to the income tax; but, at the same
time he urged that no discrimination should be made In
the case of land, and that all incomes should pay alike-
There wan, as it appeared to him (Mr. Bright), greet
discrepancy in those two statements. He however thought
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had committed a sleht
mistake. Ile seemed to look only at the mode in which
land was charged, forgetting to take into account the wide
in which other property was charged. If the right hos•
gond, man would turn his attention to trades he nisi gulf!
sure lie would find that they required an eV"
deduction to land. Take for instance the manufactunag
traders. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had re
fermi to insurance as a charge upon land. But Montana
was the smallest charge the landowner had to pay. Land
wanted no insurance, and all he had to pay u; na the
farm-buildings, and even for them he was earned tram the
stamp duty. The manufacturer was equally eonte to
pay iiieurance and to a far I weer exteut, but
the income tax no allowance was made for it,
but he h.,d to pay upeu is ito profit. In 5,015, Cl the
menufacuter paid Po/. or :at a year for incur mi.'.
of this, 100. would go to tho exchequer. But the at!t
regarded it all as profit, and upon every pound thus pata