The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-13 00:00:00

day afternoon the trmunittee =twisted their report. It
mould be printed and in the heals of the house ea Saturday ;
bat between feesday and S ouiday—that interval of three
days in which it was impoesible Ur the house to real that ,
Import, es to learn what the committee bad ta-n doing for
the last live months—was just the interval seised on by the
hob!' lard fur b:ioping en shies estimatis.
Lord .1. RUSSELL denied that ►e ►ad attempted to take
abe house by surpesat. He agreed with t►e right hon.
gentlemen opposite, that ft was not vovernment or the cos-
*See, but the haste that w e to deckle upon them estimates.
♦t the ease time be mast remind the right hea. in ut
that the government was respoi.sihle for wait" theme pro.
petitions to the house—(hear, hen)—sad w►ea he spoke of
pimp nine the minute. till August, he meant that some
time would be required to (I t staler that report, when it
Should be ',resented. C.r.sidsting the crest importance of
these in laths, the gr tat imp sranee of keeping our ser-
vices 4 did. at on the one heal, and of not making too gre.t
retreachineutit without say consideration on the uther head ;
be thought it better to per pone the coesid:ration of that
report until seat seraloo. •Hear, bear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM agreed with the noble lord, considering
the great hearth el the revert, the vast inter. at it renamed,
end the cotan'era•ioa that must be given to it by the
meat, that it would he airing). e to proved at ones with the
4111t19441 up to the 6 ► of April lot—fu: that was al they
were now &dna—tali g the period of the reams, fully to
41,411144.1 the vulamintais cep rt of the committee. He was
%site sore that a emseiderable cerise mitt t be effected if the
prittnineat would receive and co. tiler that report is the
spirit in which it was vifered ; bas: he did not think, it they
prietponed the estimates until Wenday, that any gool wed
gouda be @erred, as it would be impossible to con.ider that
large and important report between Saturday and Ma day.
(Hear, hese.)
Mr. HUMS contends.', *alma it verve intended that the
report of the committee was to be a p. tfeet force, that they
aliciald not now proceed with the estimates. He (Mr.
Num) had been detained in the house by the Bootch
OM he bias If, though a member of the committee, min-
ally did sot ken+ one of the conclusions to which they had
1111M41. The ruebt hon. Aar net epoosite thought it better
for them Waimea t. ese estimates in ignorance than in know.
dge. It he possibly could, he should prevent their proceed-
ing with the estimates at this ri.sitr, and h.. begged to move,
therefore, that the coaami•t.e report progems, and obtain
leave to sit main.
Mr. F. HAULEsaid it would be neither just to the house
OW to the commis. e to attempt spa Monday to dint's,
the contents or report f tit it nature, delis...red wily on the
previous Saturday. The report had been very carefully
drawn, and he was sure that those who took any interest in
the matter would be as snzt .us to see and consider the evi-
dence, as the concluder.' drawn from that evidence.
Mr. HeME said that the light hon. rentleasan wanted
them to grant the many fir4t. end to have the information
site:made (Hear, Liar) He looked upon that as mite
childish work, and should ri peat hie former audios for re-
porting mattes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER recom-
mended the bouts w t.rce sat at once with the present esti-
mates upon the respowily.lity of the government, and this
at the commencement of nc at ti anion they could present such
revised and amended estimates as a full consideration of the
report of the c mtnittee might enable them to do.
Mr. HERRIES spited whether they were to abandon all
hope, then, of Hinting wi his the present yea any of the
reductions which the committee recommeuded ? (Hear,

hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL anti the right hon. gent. bad en-
quired whether they were to abandon all hope of effecting
any reductions within the present year. His answer to
that was, certainly not. When the report of the committee
should be seen and considered, it might turn out upon.
Investigation that there were some reductions and charges
which might be made in a very short time ; bust he certainly
was astonished that the right hon. gent., with all his know-
ledge of the mode of curry in 4 on the public business, should
expect that on Monday next, there heir g perhaps a proposal
for a reduction of £lOO,OOO in the servioe the govern neat
should at once my th.t it was prepared to make that
reduction without any further considerate:la
Sir J. ORAIIAM said that the amount of the ordnance
"wee had already been sanctioned by that house. All that
remained now to be voted in the ordnance estimates were
stores, and new works, which were sub liviled again into
stores and new works at home, and stores and new works in
the eolenies. He had mute up his mind as to the coarse to be
panned, but thought teat govt element should have till next
memo to consider the recommendations of the committee,
and whet reductions they could make on their own responsi-
bility. (Hear, beer.)
Mr. COBDRN gall the right hon. baronet had warned
the house sot to he rash or body in in Ming reducions; and
far that moon they adverted the postponement of the
estimates till Monday. That would surely be lan rash
than Twine them then. If hon. members proceeded now to
vote tr.is money, they would proclaim trumpet-tautened to
the country that which the country strongly suspected, that
their voting of money was nothing but a farce, and that the
House of Commons, instead of the guardian of the public
purse, wag nothing but a screen for the government.
(Hear, hear.)
Col. ANSON agreed the. the report was most ably drawn
up; but as it contained references to the questions, hon.
members ought to he able to refer to the *silence also.
Mr. SPOONER s'.ould support the bon. Relishes for
Montrose, it he pressed big motion to a division. After this
committee lad sat two years, the estimates ought certainly
not to he voted, in ignorance of their report. It seemed to
him most astonishing that the noble lord at the bead of the
government should be in utter ignorance of the ne•mmenda-
time of the committee.
Mr. F. MAULS said he had been • member of the com-
mittee, but lie had never communicated their proceedings,
erne a e infidence, to any of his colleagues.
Mr. HI LDTARD said. it the committee had been one in
hostility to the government, weight would lave attached
to the anuntenta of the nolue lord; but the com-
mittee having been appointed by the government, being
is bet their owe, it ought not to les assumed that their
recommendations needed watching with so much suspicion.
Mr. I'LUMPTIIE thought time should be given fur the
consideration of slit report.
Mr. W. BROWN vas prepared to go an, thinking the
house would derive as much information from the speeches
of the members of thc committee as from the report itself.
Mr. DUNCAN supported the postponement of the esti-
mates
Mr. HUMII bared the how member for Lancashire (Mr.
W. Brown) mated be disappointed in the speeches of the
members al tin committee, who were wady as unmeant as
himself. He be one could not carry a mess of figures in his
head, whatever he might do as to a 'Mee item. (Laughter.)
Let the government and the committee be placed in a fair
position by these estimates being postponed.
Mr. J. A. SMITH said it appeared to him that they
might proceed with the estimate,.
Mr. HENLEY said he should support the motion for
postponement.
Mr. HENLEY said there was evidently a difference of
opinion between th• government and the committee, as to
these reductions. How then was the house to vote these
estimates? (Hear, hear.) The question was not whether
all the committee'. re c immendations were to be adopted,
but whether the house should not be allowed to see the ra-
pist, and thereby be the better enabled to discus the esti•
male. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the essence of the proposal of the
hon. member for Montrose was that, the report being issued
on Saturday, the estimates should be discussed, and great
reductions made, on Monday. Last year the committee had
reported on the nave estimates; and this year there Ind
been a reduction of 700,0001. or 801,0001. on thorn estimates.
(Hew, hear) Such reductions ought always to be proposed
after dee consideration, not upon 43 hours' redice—with a
view to the real interests of the country, and not for the
sake of a good speech on the hustings. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said ho had never made use of the words
" lame reductions to be made immediately." He had only
stated that a great increase had taken place in this depart-
ment beyond what the resources of the country would jus-
tify. Ice his demand he enrondered he was reasonable in
every point, and that her Majesty's government were un-
ressosable in every point. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.)
Me V. SMITH said he must vote against reporting pro-
gress.
The committee divided—For reporting propels 43
Against BO-37

Mr. J. B. SMITH was surprised that the government
still persevered in pressing this vote. As it would not
mime any real delay, he tripod the government would con.
sent toe pomponemet.t till Monday. If they did not secede
to so reasonable • proposition, be should mere that the
chairman do leave the chair.
Lord J. RUSSELL se,ii that he had postponed the ord-
nance estimates for a considerable time, in the hope that
the report would be Igi i on the table of the house. That
had been dine to day, ai d he did not think it an unreason-
able propuiti in to proceed with the votes now. No reason
had b en given for postponing the question now, as full
notice had been given that the house would go into com-
mittee this evening, and there was no suspicion that any
obj.e•ioa would be raised.
Mr. RUNE said he mull not agree in what had fallen
from the noble :ord. Thee were not delaying business, be-
cause there +eta votes which the government might now
propose wi•host opys't re. The country would judge whit
they they were right en red tiag the discussion of these votes
without hen aieg what the committee suggested with regard
to them. 11,1 W •m:l putelie opinion be brought to beer on
these questions without knowing this ? He therefore ens-
eorred in the propoiiti n the. the chairman should knee the
chair.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa/d the
as* soda had twee giro thu the ordnance en tomes
would b. brought •.ea to-•tieht.
Mr. HUME—Bat n•Avely could have supposed that they
woull be be.u2ht on with, at the report.
Mr. HAsrus asked wOeth, r there was any objec!ioa to
the rote before the e 'nominee, became if there WU, he
thouga it • fair ground ut p .a.pnunakena, but if tam was
nit, be thou2ht any (1 I.y w..uld be need! se.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mil that
hon. metotwre smolt n .t he is • fair poolion to consider thl•
sahje t without the erAntee. They could not h ire that
sot-mace on Moeda, ; and although they might have the
repot, be did not tr irk 'her e all, on that a-ount, be in a
biter lion to form abe ter judgment. If they did not
proceed with the Fab'. e', they would protr net the esmije tot
• week, which he did not Utak would be advised'.
Mr. HUME slid Vast they were en to be friettettA by
• week or ten days, because they were there to dt the be.l-
- of toe country. and to do it well. (Hoar, bear.) If
the ism. geutlionaa's argument was rod for awhile, It

'moll inducts Mans to postpone the vote till the evidence was
before them.
Mr. SPOONER said lie would not vote far poe•ponement
a mooed time, feeling that he was bound by the decisiun to
which the tome I wl alma ly coma.
The gallery was *gam cleared for a division.
Fur the motiou
Against it
Mr. ROME moved that the chairman do now leave the
chair. When he saw that every town in the kiegdom was
eal:irg for cc tummy and reduction, and when he fout.d Oat
the government would not allow time for further inqwry.
he thought he was lull warrentid in °String every oh-
stxuc to their proceedings.

Lord J. RUSSELL lead that the divloi.n whit+ had
just taken Own showed clearly that it way the opinion of
the bowel that they ought to go on with the estimate.. ; and
that the yeti majority of the house was meal= the
'calliope opposition of the hoe. member for Montrose.
Mr. HAMM said that the noble lord hal no right to
eoesplain of the hoses dividing. He shou'd he glad to
know why they were to pus these estimate+ in inch a bony?
Mr. COBDEN had °heaved the exultation of some bon:

members when the hon. member said that the report did not
revmmsnd an alteration in the estimstss this year. If there
was one thing which war wire established than another, it
was this, that no estimate had ever been altered in the life-
time of any person pr.sent after it had b.en presented to the
hones. These estimates, when once printed, were always
adopted; he ter., remembered a majority of this buns'
varying an estimate. II the hon. genilrmui (the member
for Montrose) persevered from this time to midnight, and
renewed his motion to-morrow, that the printer might have
time to prepare his rep art, he would go on with his oppo-
sition.
- - -

Lord J. MOSSRLL—The hon. gentleman said that they
were endeavouring to ovvrenme oppo ition withotnt
and by in, re brute fore,. He thought they had riven
auth
dent reasons. There were two 'opponent members of the
ensmittee who game their reasons—the hon. member for
Ripon, sad the hoe. member for N rthampton—who both
stated at some lsagth their reagent', th. y being meinhern of
the committee, and having attended careful.; to the com-
mittee, being anzious f.r reduction and economy, that they
ought to go Into there estimates to-night, and not p stpone
them till 31 ends;. The only m mbrr who opposed this who
had *Mended much to the c 'mantles was the hon. member
for Yorkshire. The hon. member for Montrose did not
attend.
Me. RUM said that he attended always until the las,
three days. The noble lord was much in err te in taking
credit for the speeehes of his two right hon. friends. 'fbrir
romans were for delay, although their vote was against
him. The reasons of the right hon. gentlemen were much
that any hon. member would bee, eapected that he wou°d
have cam, to a cliff -rent conclusion.
Mr. M. GIBSON said tent be understood that all were
agreed that these votes on the ordnonce estimates, which
were reported egainst unanimonely by the committee,
should be postponed till the report of the committee w.a be-
fore the holm; but the noble lord said, dint if one single
vote were postponed until after the report was printed—viz.,
till Monday next—they could not finish their supply
on Friday, and another week was gone. There nap
no Ice, of time in postponing all the I rimers beyond
what would ba lost in postponing one. Were they
prepared to agree to a vote to-sight, against which a com-
mittee had unankr.ously reported?
The committee divided.
For the motion
Ari'Lat it ....
Mr. HUME again moved, that the chairman do report
progress.
The committee divided.
For the motion
Against it
Mr. MO WATT said that if government remained ingot-
aisle to the ridicule of pressing on thin vote b• fore the
printing of the report, honourah:e members would be quite
jar died in persevering with their opp sition. He moved
that the chairman report progress. The committee divided.

- - -
Ayes
Noss
On our return to the gallery, we toned
Mr. HUME protecting against the course pursued by the
government. There were other estimates, such es the
militia, on which no information was expected from the re-
port, and with which the committee might proceed, if the
saving of time was an object. If government had deter-
mined on the course they were now biking, why had they
delayed their estimates so long ? If they hod br meht them
forward in ordinary course the house might have diseweed
them item by item ; but they had brat delayed for this re-
port, and now it was reedy the house was not to see it
(Hear, hear ) If the government had not intended to take
the house by surprise, they would never have acted in such
maser. It was not he who wee acting a factious pert,
it was the noble lord—(" Hear, hear, and lauelver)—
who persisted in refiring an oprortunity of fairly examinise
the.. estimates. He felt bound to move that the chairmen
now report progress.
11Ir. BROTHERTON could not we that they would be in
a better position to discuss these estimates en Monday than
they were now.
Mr. V. SMITH denied that the committee bad, as
stated by the hon. member for Montrose, hurried their
report in order to allow the noble lord the ehairman (Lord
Heymonr) to leave town
Mr. HUME said that the rule of the committee was to
'kiwis., in each week,vis. on Mondays and Fridays ; but, in
the lest week, in order to press on the report, they sat
on the Friday, Saturday, Monday, and Tu,sday.
Mr. V. SMITH.—At your instigation.
Mr. HUHE.—No, not at my instigation, for I objected
to the sitting on Saturday, and declined to come down.
(Oh) I consider I wee warranted, by the circumstances, in
making the statement I did.
Sir R. PRICE deprecated these fruit/ess divisinum, and
suggested that the boa. gentleman (Mr. Home). if he felt
so strongly on the marter,should leave the house, and so protest
against a course which he found he could not prevent.
(" Hear," and "oh.")
Mr. BRIGHT confessed that the speeches of those hon.
members, who had spoken in favour of the government,
were not sufficient to induce him to vote against the motion
of the hon. member for Montrose. The h,.n. member for ,
Salford (Mr. Brotherton) was • firm ally of the Revere-
mart, and sometimes he appeared in danger of forget- i
ling the large number of persons he represented
down in Lancashire. (" Oh, oh," and hear, hear.) Penult'
pertislities influenced matey hon. members at times, and those
partialities at present seemed to have their effect upon the
hon. member for Salford. The ease before the how. was •
very simple one. The ordnance estimates had been post-
poned for five months, and now the government were
refusing the delay of a day or two in order that the report
might he printed and circulated. Now, he would ask the
noble lord at the head of the government to recollect that
within the last fortnight he had granted two days for the dl..
cession of the hoc. member for Bucki.ighemshire's
maim on the state of the nation, and that there had been
some evenings during the session entirely lost. He believed
that there had been leis obstruction offered to her Majesty's
government in the present session than since the government
had assumed the reins of office. He hoped the noble lord
would womb the report to be printed, and hereafter con-
sidered; assured that not • single objection would be made
to the estimates which was nut absolutely necessary, and
which could not be defended on the strongest ground.
(Hear )
Mr. HETIVOOD thought the estimates relative to the
Mauritius, the lonian Islands, and Bermuda might be voted
on at once, and that the others might be reserved for future
con ideration.
After • few words of explanation from Mr. BROTILEIRTON
and Mr. Hens,
Mr. COBDEN said that they were beside the question in
introducing personalities. (Hear.) The hon. member for
Manchester (b. Bright) had spoken in • kindly
spirit to the government, and the hon. mt mber for
Salford ; and now he (Mr. Cobden)desired to treat attention
to this point. They were going to vote 2.600,0001. with a
report kyleg on the table ; and the noble lord (3, Ru-sell)
had distinctly stated that notwithstanding the recommenda-
tions contained in that report, be intended to take a vote
for the money at once. How could the house ju°ge whether
the noble lord was right in withdrawing money from the for-
tifications at Corfu without having the report printed? The
sum of 458,0001. had been voted for Corfu AMC* the peace.
(Hear.) The report states that according to Lord Grey, the
works should have been undertaken until the question
was reconsidered. Was it not right that they should know
the meaning of this report before they were forced to vote
this money? (Hear, hear.)
Colonel ANSON obeetved that when the boo. gentleman
alleged that he hail had the advantage of the report, he
belted to say that he bad not said a word about it. But he
must point oat what he considered a grass misrepresentat'on
ot the hon. gentleman wisp -icting the lonian Islands. He
said that the expense of new works and ordnance works was
486 0001. ; but he concealed altogether fro e she house that of
that wens the lonian Islands contribute :307,0001., and that
the actual um paid by
.this eouotry was only 148,608!.
(Cheers.) And yet with these figures before him
he quoted the sum of 456,000!. as paid by the country
for those bleeds. The hon. member for Montrose threw
out • wide challenge to him, but es he said it was his inten-
tion to divide the house upon this gulden, he bad not
thnug it is necessary to notice it. His comparison between
1838 and the present year was nearly as erroneous es the
statement of the hon. me mh ir lan the West Riding. Instead
of the odes t• of 1835 being 1.100,000!.. it was 1,470,000!.;
and instead of its being this year 3,000,0001., it was only
2,600,000!.
Mr. COBDEN asked whether what he said was net that
450.0001, had been voted by that house. [Col. Anson—lt was.]
1 hen by what possible pretence did the hon. and gallant
member charge him with misrepresenting? (Hear.) The
Hone of Commons voted that ram, and called on the lonian
Islands to pay their share. They even had it in evidence that
there were arrears due by the lonian Islands which would
be paid.
Capt. BOLDERO deprecated the habit of postponing the
ordnance etiolates to so late • period of the session, as it
was prectieallv dissdvantsgerus to do so, by the suspension
of works which could not be proceeded with for want of
tunes. Bat looking to the determination of boo. gentlemen
eproiee, he thought the noble lord had biter allow the
rennet err come out to-morrow, and the vide be postponed
till Monday.
Lint J. RUSSELL could not allow the debate to close'
eitnout repelling the imputation of the hon. member for
Mulches er, that he (Lord J. Hassell) most hays a dishonest
m live hi refusing, on the 12•11 July, to pretpowe the con-
siderdi in of these estimates. If his motive were dishoneet, he
certainly "ad n,a taken a ea" atureir.aful mode of achieving it,
by delaying the Indrawn: :Wastes so long in hope of having