The Express.
London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

die reason ropectine the Lehner Rate A. t of laffierision.
the practical appliratem of which had, he observed, atnoaget
after evil., withdrawn a great portion of the population of
Ireland f ore profitable to unprofitable employment, and, to
a great cetera,. paralysed the industry of the country.
(Hear, hear, hear.) He did nce, homey, r. take so gloomy a
view of the extent of the evil op to the present moment as
some noble lords, one of whom said the* the latest period
for snaring oats was the beginning of February. (A lino.)
It was well known that the greater portion of Irish cern was
spring corn, and that the proton of engine might not be
look. d for until the months, of March and April, and even
so lata as Mae. (Hear, hear.) He certainly was still of
opinion that the government would hsve done bitter had
they sacrificed • tattle of their adherence t. the doctrines of
political enseomy and free-trade, and interfered with those
petty ep: culators who, in regions remote from any consider-
able m irket, and where the ordinary speculations of enter-
prise &Mei to reach, bought tip the corn of the country
and sold it at exorbit ant profits. In the prop wed measure
fidr reel aimiter w ote lend. he entirely egreed ; hut here,
again, her Majesty's government were deviating from
their principle by taking upon themselves, in every
respect, the chancier of landholder an one ride, end
land speculistors on the other, purchasing and re-selling
land and controlling the terms upon which it should be m-
itt. With regard to a system of emigre anon, he thought it
wooll be encoded with much difficulty, at least it intended
N be merle,' to each an extent as would have any visible
erect upon the population of the country. Upon the measures
respecting the poor law and the &times he would not say
one word. for fiellitating landed proprietors to relieve
their estates by the sale of portions thereof he considered of
the greatest ivportanee (although the noble marquis did not
lay much atm. unon it), as it would have the effect not only
of relieving existing elites of landlord*, but of tempting the
intrwbaction of fresh capital. The weer merquis laid a
much greater stems upon the offer of loans to landlords at
three-end-a-hell' per cent., and seemed to expect an almost
irnm diate effect from it. Now, if such an offer were made
to the landlords of England they would doubtless
largely avail themselva s of it. But there were cir-
cumstance. in Ireland which might very well be expecte I
to cripple such a measure. The Irish landlord.' position was
not like that of the English landlords. If an Eng-
lish landlord laid nut moue/ upon his estate, whether let
under le me or to tenants at will, lie was certain to have the
co-operation of the tenantry, and to obtain from them a cor-
respond'ng interest upon the money he advanced or ex-
pended. The English landlord, too, would have no difficulty
whatever in removing an unimproving for the purpose
of substituting an impaling tenant. This was not the
case in Ireland. (" Hear, hear," from the Marquis of West-
meath.) There was another circumstance which ought to
be borne in mind in any measnres for improving the landed
Wittes of Ireland, and to which he had heard no reference
made—he alluded to the cane of old tomes where the lands
were held ender middlemen, where the landlord derived
comparatively no benefit from them, and where any im-
provement to be elfeteil would go to the middleman,
although upon the head landlord would rest the responsi-
bility of maintaining and supporting those pauper peasants
who were upon his estate against his will, and over whom
he could exercise no control whatever. This might hove
arisen from previous improvidence, but it was of a very old
date. (Hear, hear.) Ina case upon his own property, where
the lease was granted in 1780, and where the original lone*
had the power to stock the estate with a race of paupers. he
(Lord Stanley) demurred to his transferring a farm upon it
to another party, conceiving that in the lease there
was a positive prohibition, stating, as it did, that
the tenant was deharred from selling, alienating, assigning,
or otherwise than by. will disposing, of the said farm;
hot on taking the opinion of counsel, he wee informed that
there was nothing to the lease to prevent th r lessee, owing
to'rhe omission of the word" sublet," from cutting up the
farm, and subletting it to any extent he pleased. Thus the
government would find in Ireland, what in England ma
easy enough, a great difficulty in preveneing a population
from being( ireol upon a property where the landlord could
have no control over them, although burdened with their
maintenance. It being a distinct and recognised object to
introduce capital into Ireland, he thought that object ought
to be partly attained by making advances to incorporated
railway companies upon fair end indiapteehle security. He
saw no more legitimate mode of facilitating the im.
mediate distributien of capital in Irelend, as it would give
instant employment under a supervision which would he
much more effective than any the government could pro-
vide, as it would be sharpened by personal icaterest. lie
could offer no definite plan upon the subject ; but merely
suggested it to the government as a channel through which
they might pour fresh capital into Ireland, and give instant
employment to the people, and thus assist in meeting the
present difficulty, without any loss to the public revenue.
The noble lord concluded by expressing • general eoncurs
once in the measures alluded to by the noble marquis, and
a hope test they would be discussed with every disposition
to en-operate with her Majesty's government, and a total
freedom frets all captious objection. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM hoped the noble m amain would lay
some estimate before them of the number of melions these
measures would cost ; the amount of the loan that would
be required ; how the interest of that loan was to
be Dud ; and whether it was to be paid by
existing taxes,or whether the income-tax must not of
neceest•y be ereaed for the purpose ? Be had heard the
expense n imated at 15,000,0001., and if that were correct he
should like to know how it was to be had and how repaid.
He quite agreed with his noble friend in all the principles he
had laid down for his guidance. Indeed, he would go a step
further, and say that the government ought not to be a loan
contractor or lender of money any more than a corn-dealer.
miller, or maaufaeturer. If the government of England
borrowed money Prom their Jewish opponents in the mar-
ket, they east pay interest for it ; but that the Irish land-
lora would pay it beck to the government, he was not quite
sure. (A laugh.) He knew that they would wish, and
would make an effort to do so, but he was not quite
certain that they would be able to fulfil their intention.
Without the exercise of the most strict and vigilant supervision
these loans would become the source of the grossest system of
jobbing. There was one subject which he would more espe-
cially press on the attention of the government—the poor-
law. No one could hare a greater repugnance than he had to
extend the miseries and inemseniences which had followed
upon the abuses of the English pour-law to the enter
kinednm. Looking at the vast influx of paupers from
Ireland into Liverpool. Manchester, Glasgow, and other
tows s had at ler.gth brrught his mind to the no is
viction that a well- framed measure, cirefully guarding
against the sham. of the Engli‘h measure, was ab-
solutely necesary for Inland. With regard to the
loans, if the interest upon them was to be paid
by an increase of the property tax or the assessed taxes, he
hoped the slater kingdom would in this matter have some
little regard for her English sister, and be content to pay
her fair proportion, and that the property tax and the
assessed taxes would be an longer for the English only. (Hear.)
He trusted also that in say change that might be contem-
plated with reference to the former of those imposts, the
attempt would not again be made to conciliate the large mass
of small proprietors, sh ..pkeeper., and others, by drawing a
distinction between the can with 1401, and the one with
1.501. a year—(hear)—by exempting the former hen his fair
share of the burden. He suggested also that in the passage
through parliament of any measure for allotting money to
the Irish landlord.' by way of loan, or in any otherform, that
tome such self-denying clause would be introduced as that
proposed by Mr. Whitbread in the measure for the Exchequer
IE6II Loan ; viz., that no commissioner or member of either
house of parliament should he permitted to take any benefit
under the ace He approved of the proposal for permitting
tenants for life to liberate a pa-t of their property
for the benefit of the whole. This would be of great ad-
vantage in bringing a class of independent tenantry on the
estates. lie thought, toe, that the subject of fisheries had
by no means occupied too much of the attention of the
government. Exertion. could scarcely be made in a better
direction than by lending the required capital, nets, and
tackle, and furnishing experienced fishermen to instruct the
people in working the Irish fisheries. But the more imme-
diate question to which their lordships' attention must after
all he directed, was the want of food. (Hear.) The
people were dying by thousands. It was not money that
was wanted, but cern. lie well's' recommend a a ineens of
keeping down the price of flour, or, at least, of preventing
its further rise, to do that which had been dose with the
most beneficial effect in 1795 and 1800, that is, that their
lordships should enter into a voluntary league and covenant
to discourage as much as possible the use of bread and
pastry in their own families, and encourage by their ex-
ample, and all other means in their power, others to do the
same. The noble lord concluded by inquiring if his noble
friend (Lansdowne) had made any calculations of the
amount of money that would be required for Ireland under
the several measures the government proposed ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied that at present it
was imporsible for him to form any estimate of the amount
which might be required.
The Earl of DYSART agreed that it was impossible,
without further consideration, for any noble lord to be com-
petent to give any opinion as to the various measures which
the noble marquis had described. If, as one who had wit-
nessed many of the scenes of distress mining in Ireland, he
found it necessary to touch upon some of the past measures
of the government for meeting that distress with reprehen-
sion, it was with regret rather than censure, for, although
very great evils had resulted from them, he wam quite aware
they had been proposed and carried out with the best inten-
tions. He regretted, when it was first known in August last
that the staple food of six millions of the Irish people was
destroyed, that some more effectual provision for meeting
such a calamity had not been made by ministers. He did
not eny that they should have ransacked the markets of the
world, and, by appearing es purchaser., enhanced the price of
food but, by a well-enesidered and rautious mode of pro-
ceeding, they should have eitablished depots in those
parts of Ireland wher the greatest apprehensions of scarcity
were felt, and where them were no sufficient stores to meet
the wants of the peep's But after all that had occurred,
e did not ask their lordships to forgive the Irish landowners
a farthing of their debt. England might be generous. but
Ireland MOM be honest, and must sown every nerve to die-
charge her obligation. (liar, hear.) But if, regardless of
all remonstrance, E:mgland had involved them in a useless
expenditure, then it mast "e admitted tleet she owed them
some reparation. The measures proposed by government
might not go to the root of the evil. but taken altogether he
believed they were reticulated to do a great deal of good.
The Bari of DEVON, who was but imperfectly audible in
the gallery, was understood to ay that the noble and learned
lord who hid so unsparingly criticised the government mea-
sures mat have been strangely forgetful of many things which
bad happened under his own cognisance and with his own
concurrence. (Hear.) He (the Earl of Devon) fully admitted
that the obligation of supporting the people of Ireland fairly
rested on the land, but the difficulty was that the landlord
did not always represent the land, and then the question
was, how was the liability to he realised. (Hear, hear). He
would remind the noble lord that in a former year the 'o-
verran,: cr Lejrd o:my had thought it desirable that the
Irian landlords should i..te aisistsd by grants of money for