The Express.
London, England, 1848-07-18 00:00:00

the registration of voters--this was not to be proceeded with.
He could conceive no other result from its having bun
allowed to lie idle so long. As showing the necessity far
some measure of this nature, he might mention that there
were not more than 60.000 electors—he believed the actual
number did not exceed 40,000—in the whole of Ireland,
and in Dublin, though there were 21,000 on the electoral
roll, not more than 7,000 or 8,000 were entitled to vote ; and
he was told there were not fewer than 16 rates which
the elector had to pay before he could vote. It was a fraud
on the Irish people that such a sytens f
franchiseregistration, which
imposed upon the exercise of the every fetter which
the ingenuity of lawyers could devise, should be allowed to
exist. What was the state of Inland now, when parliament
was abont to separate, without having passed any
ter improving that country—and he could not forge t that in
the prosperity or the poverty of Ireland the people of L ince.
shire were directly interested ? Under the bill passed rinse
Christmas, an Irishman had been transported ; but had peace
and tranquillity resulted? Everyday they heardof new arrests
for sedition or felosy under the new act ; day aeerday they
heard of newspaper offices being broken open by the police,
and the types and paper seized, and acts perpetrated under
the authority of the law such as had not been witnessed for
centuries past. Then clubs were being formed and orga-
nised in various parts of the country—in the south to oppose
the government, and in the north to support it. They
heard of bodies of 6,000 or 6.000 men meeting together
armed, and they were now told the Lord Lieutenant
dwis-
as
coming over to 'Englenil, he supposed, for a more close
cussion with the government of the state of the country.
And what was the cause—what was the root of all the
political discontent of Ireland ? The whole question was
one of Roman cathelieigni only one side and prise-
testantiam on the other. (, hear The Irish
church was the roat of the evil, and while it remained
it w, old continue to send forth those noxious branches by
which disorder anil rebellion were spread over one-third of
the empire. The geverament should have considered this
question of the church when they were dealing with Ire-
land—that church of a small minority, which must go down,
and which would bring down the church of England with it,
if it were allowed to remain in Ireland as it was now.
(Hear.) Parliament ought not to generate until these
questions to which he had r, (erred had. been fully consi.
dewed, and until something were done to give hope to that
portion of the Irish people which comprised the great majori-
ty, repealer as well as others, who were net anxious for
insurrection, and to show the people of this country that
i it
met for business. Much depended on the government n
these matters. Had the noble lord declared to.night that
parliament would not separate until the navigation laws
were repealed, repealed they would be. (Hear, hear.)
But the noble lord did not rise to the dignity and influence
of his position. What was the position of the metropolis of
England at this moment ? It was partially disf be-
Callst it had returned a man upon whom the other house of
parliament had set its ban. (Hear.) He could tell the noble
lord that there had been prime ministers not more patriotic
or able than himself, who, were they still at the head of
affairs, would have the courage to obtain from parliament
measures more in ccordence with the wishes and the in-
terests of the people than he bail yet done. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. J. YOUNO hoped the noble lord, if he really intended
to persevere with the Lsndlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill,
would appoint an evening sitting for its discussion, when
there would he a full atteielance. (Ileac, hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH defended ministers rom the charge of
neglect brought against them by the lion. member for Man-
chester. That hon. gentleman complained of the time which
had been occupied in doicussing Irish business, and yet he
blamed government fur not bringing in a hill to abolish the
Irish church, which, it undertaken by them, would be more
than sufficient fir any one session. f ili ar.) The hon. gen-
tleman must have some idea of the difficulty of ministers in
getting through their business by the position in which he
himself was as to the game laws—a subject which had been
in his hands more than three years. (A laugh.)
There were two important questions as regard( d
the poor of this country on which he regretted nothing
had yet been dote during the present session—he alluded to
the questions of settlement and emieratien. Ile hoped the
rielit hon. President attic Poor law Board meant to proceed
with the bill he had brought in on the question of settle-
ment. (Yee) For though that measure did not go the
length he could wish, he hoped it might 1,4 to such a so
lotion of the difficulty an should he 'beneficial to the poor.
With regard to emigration, he thought it might be
sp-
preached with more advantage now than at any former time.
The colonies were most anxious for our superabundant la-
bour, and our unemployed labourers were eux:ous to emi-
grate. Ile hoped his right hon. friend would state whether
he intended to propose any vote or motion on this subject
before the session closed, which would probably give rise to

Lord MORPETH was und:rstood to say that the bill
Would be proceeded with.
CORN DUTIES.
Lord G. BENTINCK inquired what was the amount of
duties on corn which had been remitted, and whether the
noble lord (J. Russell) had env objection to lay on the table
the minute of authority imaer which the remission had
tni.en place ? Ile had further to ask, assuming that the pre
ceediue of government in thus dispensing with the enteority
of parhament in the maer wan illegal and unconstituuonal,
whether the noble lord intended to ask the assent of the
home to • bill of indemnity
Lord J. RUSSELL coul.l not inform the noble lord what
was the exact amount of duties remitted, but had no objec-
tion to produce the minute of authority which had been
given to the customs, and upon which they had acted. With
regard to the last question, he did not believe that it were
uld
be four.d thet that authority at all exceeded the law.
an
it otherwise, he should hue been peepmed to
for a bill take
.onll of hiiem-
self the respunsibility, d to ask the hoese -
demnity, but as the law had not been violated, no such bill
WIN necessary.
SPIRIT DE
WAALERS AND BRITISH SPIRITS
REHOUSING BILLS.
In reply to a question from C .pt. Juntas,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQL ER stated
that he propos..d to take these leek so they stood on the paper,
but merely pro fornui, in order that the suggestions that
had bean received from various parts of the country, and
which had been embodied in them, might be printed; the
bills would then come before the house in 'amended state,
in which he hoped they would be adopted.
ARTERIAL DRAINAGE (IRELAND).
In reply to Sir P. Erosive,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU Eft stated
that the whole of the Worms, ion on this subject would he
contained in tee general relied of the lewd of Works. It
was in the hands of the printer, and would be laid before the
heuse with as little delay as possible.
BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.
Lord J. RUSSELL had, in answer to a question put the
other day by the right hon. member for Ripon, saidbtehaent
the
he
would to-day take that which of late years had
usual curse of stating what were the bills government
hoped to be enabled to proceed with during the present ses-
sion, and what were then they intended to abandon. In
fulfilling that promise he would confine himself to the prin-
cipal of those measures, those which were of the greatest im-
portance; it was not necessary that he should go into any
stateni nt of the minor bills. With regard to the first of
those principal measures, the Public Health Bill, witch had
already peed through the House of Commons, and had
been reed • second time in the House of Lords, it was tbe
intention of government to press tor the decision ef parlia-
ment on that measure, and he trustcd it would receive
the royal assent before the close of the session. f Hear,
hear.) Next as to the Incumbcred Estates (Ireland) Bill,
that measure had come down from the House of Lords, since
when many amendments had been introduced into it by the
House of Commons, and it hid now gone threugh committee
with the almost general assent of the house ; and he should
certainly endeavour to press through the further proceedings
on that bill, with the view of obtaining the event of the Lords
to the ameudments, and to its ',using during the mewed
session, believing as he aid that the measure was one of great
importance, and that its enactment ought not to be delete ed.
There was another bill which he had introduced only the
other night, and which he proposed to move the second read-
ing of on Thursday next—the bill for putting a stop to the
corrupt practices in boroughs. That was a measure which he
thought it would not ho titling to postpone, and which he
should therefore proceed with as he had stated on Thursday,
and he hoped it would receive the assent of parliament.
Then as to the Deeom the Relations w.th Herne
Bill, that, which was also a unsure that hal
coe down from the other itouse, was i the hands
ofm his noble friend the S-cretary tor Foren ign Atreus,
who intended, as soon as lie should be able to oliet'n a d..y
for the purpose, to move its stoma reading, with the view of
proceeding with it during the present session. lie now
came to a question of the utmost importance—a measure
which was founded on a r commendation contained in the
Queen's speech at the opening of the session, but which,
owing to the lengthened deheree on the navy and other esti-
mates and on the Income Tax Bill, though ministers had
hoped to bring it forward et an earlier period of the session
they had not Leen able to do instil May—he referred to the
resolution on which to found the bill for altering the nave
gation laws. (Hear, he .r.) And since the introduction of
that resolution, in consequeoce 'a the lengthened debates on
the ellen duties and other quotions, they hid been Jinni-
pointed in their hope of Leung on continuously with
the diseuesion of the pre' micary resolution, and with
the bill when it should be introduced. As matters
now stood, considering the late period of the year,
the very great importance of the question, and that
the bill could not yet fur some time go up to the
House of Lords, government had most reluctantly come to
the opinion that they could not proce• d with it during the
present session. (" Oh," from the protectionists.) At the
same time he hoped there would be no objection on the part
of the house to go into committee, with the view of assenting
to tile resolution, and en ibline h's right hon. frisud to in-
troduce the bill; so that the house and the country might
have it before them during the recta •, and be in powession of
what wee really the character of the measure mitiku rs pro-
posed. (Hear, hear.) Ho telt that while this measure had
been the subject of considerable discussion ir, the house and
this country the failure of its passing in the present me sion
would be a great disappeintinent to some of our moat im-
pertant colonies—(hear, hear),—and he thought it therefore
his duty to declare that while taking upon himself the blame
—if there was blame, of the delay—without imputing blame
to any man or any body of meat iii that home, it was his
duty to declare that the government props-cd to intro- '
duce the measure at the very earliest period of the next '
session; and of er the diociosion which it has received. and '
the approbation of the principle which has been expressed by
a large majority of the home, the important province of
Caada ad thom foreign poesy, to whom we had hel out
then expectation that our navigetion laws would bed e
repealed
might rest confident that next session of parliament would
see a measure--whether in ell torment exactly the same as
that tee government proposed he would not say—but that in
the next session a measure taking away the restrictions now
imposed by the navigation laws weeild receive the amens of
parliament. (Hear, hear.) With the measure with regard
to the navigation laws government proposed to withdraw the
Merchant Seamen's Fund Bill, which was consequent upon I
that measure. There was another measure which haul
received scarcely any discussion as let—the measure relating '
to the franchise and registration of voters for members of
parliament in Ireland. That was undoubtedly an important
measure ; but at this time of the yeer it was too late to begin
a discussion upon it ; be therefore proposed to postpone that
also to another session. The Landlord and Tenant (Ire-
land) Bill, which was also one of great importance to
Ireland, to the principle of that bill they should endeavour
to obtain the assent of the house before parliament pro-
rogued. lie attached more importance to the assent of '
parliament to the principle of this bill, in regard to its bene-
fieial effect upon Ireland, than to its details; therefore, who-
they they should he enabled to proceed with the details or not
he proposed to ask the boom to affirm the principle. Them
were certain other bills which had been introduced by his
right hon. friend the President of the Poor-law Board,
which it was intended to proceed with ; and on an early day
his right hon. friend would explain the reasons why he
thought they should pass. There were many other bilis in
the long list before him, most of which were of minor im-
portance, several ef which hal not been brought forward by
government, and in which they were not concerned, and to
which he would not advert ; but having stated the intentions
of government as to the principal and more important mea-
sures, he would now propose that the order of the day for
the Merchant Seamena' Fund Bill be read, in order that it
might he discharged.
Mr. GOULBURN remarked teat in all the discussions
which had taken place in either house on the auhject of our
West India collide s, the repeal of the navigation laws had
always been held out to them as calculated to confer irm
meow benefit upon them—a benefit equal to 2s. or 2s. Gil. a
cwt. on their sugar. Had the noble lord any other measure
in contemplation to compensate the West India interest for
the loss they would be subjected to by the continuance of
those laws? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HERRIES entirely concurred in the coune proposed
by the noble Ind as to the measure for repealine the navi-
gation laws ; and lie Louie speak fur others, who, like
him, were opposed to thee. asure, that they would offer
ho objection to the preliminary stagy' necessary to the
introduction of the hill. It must not, however, be under-
stood that there was the slighteet change in their opinions
on the subject, or that they en re to be precluded from giving
to the measure, wren brought forward next session, their
most determined oppeeition.
Mr. BRIGHT thought the present not an unfitting op-
portunity to make one or two observations with respect to
the progrem of the ss it the session, and the course
government were now shout to pursue. He would not enter
into any de ClAS'.on of the advantage of the proposed mea-
sure on the navigalen laws, which the noble lord now said
was to be abandoned. *mirth it had been rerommended in
the Queen's speech, and though he believed the majority
of tall the great msnutaetueing, the commercial, and the ship-
ping towns in the kingdom were in favour either of a repeal
or a considerable alteration of the existing law. (Hear,
hear.) That the measure was not introduced till May was
not the fault of the hose. Hie opinion was that govern.
ment bad not b; en particularly anxious to pass the
measure, he supposed because they feared the hos-
tility it would create on the otherhing side. He saw
need no remon wh if settle of thos ts hail been l
undone which not have been doene, and by which so mucefth
of the scission had been taken up. ministers might not have
carried through their measure for repealing the navigation
laws. He would call attention to otos or two facts which
were calculated to create in the minds of the people out of
doors the conviction that during this session their represen-
tatives had not attended to the duty which had bet n com-
mitted to their charge. The house met before Cbristerms for
the express purpose, IA they were told, of considering the
Bank Charter Act, and also the afflicting state of Ireland ;
but the only measure of importance which was then tweed
was one avowedly for the protection of the rights of property
in Ireland, but in ruddy to disarm a certain portion of the ,
Irish people. That was the only measure before Christmas. I
After Christmas the solos of Ireland was again the subject of
discussion, and he believed that same question—the state of
retard—had been a standing dish with parliament ever since
he oldest member in it wag a boy. t2ear," and a laugh.)
Atter Christmas they passol an tatted to he fur the
purpose of putting dowe die ter antes let Ireland, and
for making that which h ul been before a misdemeanor
a felony. They had also had before there a bill
which the noble lord admitted to he one of great importance
—the bill for giving facilities for the sale of incumbered
estate, in Ireland—and no doubt that measure it passed,
would he the commencement of the work of restoring health
to the 'recital condition of Boland. (Hear, hear.) This mea-
sure had heen eielayeil until it was doubtful whether it could
psis. There was another al of considerable importance in
regard to Ireland—the bill for improving the trauehise and

of the grand Jury laws, the amendments of the law
affecting medical charities, and of the poor law; and,
lastly, the measure for the estecurlon of the elective
franchise in Ireland ? In every respect the people of Ireland
had been deceived and disappointed by the wings, in whose
behalf he had struggled to retain his seat M that house as a
friend to the legislative union, but it legislation proceeded as
of late years, though ho should not become a repealer—for
he was now UM old to change hispolitics—(eries of " no,no")
—yet he could not blame those who advocated the manage-
ment by Ireland of her own affairs. For himself he would
say he did not care how soon the whigs changed places with
tte hon. gentlemen opposite, fee the former were always
better in opposition than when they undertook to conduct
the affairs of this meat nation. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had understood that his hon.
friend had risen in order to put a question, but although he
had made many observations, he had omitted to put the
question he had said he wished to ask. (A laugh.)
If he understood his honouratle friend right, he
wished to know whether it wan likely that the
bill for converting leasehold tenures in Ireland into tenures
in fee would be introduced, and that question had been an-
swered by the production of the bill in a printed form. Tie
hon. member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) had also asked
some questions with respect to the affairs of Ireland, but as
notice had been given of two motions on going into commit-
tee of supply, by 'Alien the whole state and condition et Ire-
land would he brought under discussion, ho (Lard J. Rus-
sell) thought the present was not the proper occasion on
when to enter into the general question of the elate of Ire-
land; but as the hon. member (Mr. Bright) had taken upon
himself to represent the opinions of the government, and had
stated that the government had declined to go on with the
Irish Franchise Bill because they understood it would be
opposed as b, ing a new reform bill, he begged to tell the
hon. member that ho was wholly misinformed on that mat-
ter. With respect to his statement on the subject of
the navigation laws the hon. member was equally
misinfernuil, betimes the government had been ex-
tremely anxious to carry forward their views on that
subject, but it was impossible to have introduced the'
measure at an'earlier period than had been the case unless
they had aniseed the Inflame Tax and the Mutiny Acts to
have expired. The noble lord the member for King's Lynn
(Lord 0. Bentinek) had referred to the reply made to Lord
Elgin by the Canadian people on the subject of the navigas
tion laws, and had inquired why that document had not been
laid on the table. The simple answer was, that the Os
vernor-Oeneral of Canada had not transmitted it to the
Colonial-office. But, as a reply to the noble lord, he (Lord
.1. Russet) would refer him to the original memorial of the
Canadian., in which they state (speaking of the navigation
laws) that " they did not believe that the repeal of those
laws would destroy the relations which existed between
Canute and the mother country ;" thus showing that they
wished to maintain the connexion, and that they believed
the repeal of those laws would tend to that object. The hon.
gentleman opposite (Mr. Forbes) had inquired with respect
to the Scotch Registration Bill, which was now in the other
house. If that bill came down soon his hon. and learned
friend the Lord Advocate would proceed with it.
Mr. FCiltßES—On what day ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not name the day until
the bill came down from the other house. His hon. friend
the hon. member far the University of Oxford (Sir It. IL
Inglis) had remarked that ministers expected to prorogue
parliament in the second week in August. lie (Lord J.
Russell) entertained no such expectation. (Hear, hear.) He
did not think it possible that it could take place so early ;
but of course that would depend upon the time given to the
discussion of those hills which were intended to be proceeded
with. In speaking of Ireland and Irish measures, it had
been alleged that, with respect to the Landlord and Tenant
Bill, the Irish menthers had not been consulted. Now, that
bill had been referred to a select comrotttee, of which a great
majority were Irish members; and that committee had re-
commended the bill in its present form. The hon. member
for Manch star (Mr. Bright), in finding Malt with
the conduct of the g ivernment, had admitted that
the Sale of locumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill was
an act essential to the foundation of the improved social eon.
dition of Ireland ; and he (Lord J. Russell) asked the house
whether a greater compliment could be paid to the govern-
ment who introduced and pressed forward that measure than
the alniissien made by an hon. member when indulging in
attacks and invectives upon the government ? In reply to a
question put by his hon. friend the member for the Univer-
sity of Oxford (Sir It. H. Inglis), he hail to state, with re.
spect to the measure for the alteration of the oaths required
to be taken by members, that public business had to much
increased Once ho had given notice of that measure, that it
was not his intention to make tiny motion on that subj• et
during the present session ; but believing as he did that the
oaths now taken were very unnecessary and almost drew
ridicule on that which ought to he • solemnity, he should,
early next session, renew his notice, with a view to their
alteration. Al to the Diplomatic Relations with Rome Bill,
he believed there would be no great opposition to it, and he
hoped parliament would not refuse its taunt to it before the
pees, rat session wee brought to • close.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said though he agreed that diecussions
like the present were unfit to be entertained, still he was of
opinion that at this moment the houseought not to deceive it-
seller the country with respect to the real state ot 1 reland. nut
was a matter of far too serious import to be dismissed in an
easy off. hand manner, as had been done by the noble lord at
the head of the government and by other hon. members
who had spoken on the point. Ile intended to make no
attack on the government with respect to their conduct
towards Ireland, because on the principle that he would not
vele ill of the deed, so he would say nothing against a
dying and expiring government. (" Hear, hear," and a
laugh.) Ile had resisted the cry for repeal, because he had
thoeght justice would be done to Ireland by the Imperial
Parliament; but he joined with the hon. member for Mallow
(Sir D. N anus) in laming, that if session after session was
allowed to pass—if promises made out of office were not
fulfilled when in office, be would join the Irish Confedera
tion 'o get the management of their affairs into their own
hands. He must say that the conduct of the whigs towards
Ireland hail been a delusion, a mockery, and a snare. They
had induced their supporters t join them in a factious vote
to turn out the right hon. baronet the member for
Tomwerth ; and when they got into office the first
thing they hail done was to pass a coercion bill, and since
November the only remedial measure was the Incum-
bered Estates Bill; and even that would cot have gone on
hut for the circumstance of the hon. and learned member for
Plymouth having succeeded Sir 1). Dundee in the office of
Solicitor-General. The course taken by the noble lord and
his colleagues with respect to Ireland could lead to nothi
but anarchy and bloodshed and he for one cared not how
soon they were out of office. Ile trusted a strong government,
of any party, would turn out the men of straw who were
now in power ; if not the tenure of Ireland by thin country
would be last. ([dear, hear.)
M. NEWDEOATE reminded hon. members that when
the people of Ireland complained that more was not done
for them, they forgot that they did not approach either the
government or the house in a form or method that was at all
calculated to conciliate. Ile was Rum the government and
the legislature had not shown any indisposition to meet the
physical wants of Ireland, and therefore ho utterly repu-
diated the doctrines held by the hon. member for Manchus-
ter (Mr. Bright) as to the destruction of the church of Ire-
land, and the hint that the church of England must
follow the same fate. It was right for the house to toll the
Irish people that while it was ready to meet and remedy any
known grievances, sedition, conspiracies, and the formation
of secret societies against the constituted authorities were not
the means by which to conciliate this country so as to induce
her to extend all her privileges and adsantages to them. As
to an extension of the franchise, it had been refused to Eng-
land and Scotland, both of which were more fitted to receive
it than Ireland, and therefore on that ground Ireland had no
just ground of complaint.
Col. DUNNE regretted that as the Qualification of
Voters Bill had passed a second reading, and its principle been
ther. by adopted, it was not to be proceeded with as one re-
medial measure for Ireland. lie thought the course pursued
by the government would tend to itocrease the number of
repeaters.
Col. SIBTHORP did not rise to fire another volley against
her Majesty's ministers, but simply to state that he should
move, when rereade on, that the Corrupt Practices at Elec-
tions Bill be a second time that day six months. All
those other measures the government were disposed to pro-
mcd with he should oppose, fir there was not one good
measure amongst them. (Laughter.)
The cacr of the day was then read and discharged.
RUM DUTIES.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR OF THE EICKEOLER
the house resolved Mull into a committee of the whole
house on the Rum Duties—Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he rose
to propane the second of the measures which the government
had announced for the benefit of the West Indies by facili-
tating the introduction of thcir produce into this
hetcounry
and he was happy to think that by the measure was
about to propose not merely the interests of the producer hut
those of the consumer heel been consulted. The principle on
which the government proposed to legislate was, that as far
as restriction went the colonial producer should be allowed
to bring his articles into that market on the Lime terms as
the producer of the Fame commodity in this country. Last
year it would be remembered by those hon. members who
sat in the last parliament that his first proposition had been a
rential duty of 6d. per gallon, and that he had not then been
prepared to admit the claim made by the British distqlers
for a differential duty of 7d. per gallon. If then, in 1847.
Gd. was a fair differential duty, it was not in the slightest
degree inconsistent with that opinion, that now, under the
altered position of citchrtstances, a less duty than Gd. would
be adequate. In the first place be wished to state that he
did not think it possible to deduce any direct conclusion from
the mere consumption of spirits during the last year. No
doubt that consumption was entirely to be attributed to the
circumstances of the year, partly arising from short crops,
and party to the necessity of diverting grain from the
manufacture of spirits to the purposes of food for the
population. This was proved by the falling off in the quan-
tity of malt brought into charge, and from the fact that
cern imported fur the purposes of distillation had
actually been re-exported to supply food to foreign
countries. This accounted for the falling off in
the revenue from these sources, and proved that
the falling off had not arisen from the introduction of foreign
spirits. The whole amount of foreign spirits entered for
consumption in Scotland and Ireland was shown by the evi-
dence given by the chairman of the Board of Excite before
the select committee. The quantity of spirits brought into i
charge in Scotland in 1846 7, was 6,123,000 gallons, while
the quantity of rum entered for consumption there had been
wily 382,000 gallons; and in irelaud, of home distilled '
spirits there had been entered on charge 6,037,000 gallors,
and only 176,000 gallons of rum entered for home consump-
tion during the same period. Therefore nobody could soy
that any effect had been produced on the consumption of
home manufactured spirits by the inteeduction of so trifling
a quantity of colonial spirits. He would now state why he
thouslit the duty on rui reduced to the point he
eras about to propose. lie tier:ed that in the committee on

discussion.
Sir J. WALSH and rstood the noble lord to say that he
would ask the house to agree to the principle of the Landlord
and Tenant Bill, but did not intend to press the details this
session. Ile feared such an arrangement wculd be most in-
convenient, and he hoped the noble lord would reconsider
his determination.
Lord J. RUSSELL had said that hr would endeavour to
pass the measure, but that he attached more importance to
thatrinciple of it than to any details it might centain, but
he should not therefore refrain from proceeding with th,
details if possible.
Sir J. WALql.—But it was in the details that the real
importance and efficacy of the measure consisted. (Hear,
hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS could not conceive with what hope his
noble friend proposed to proceed with the Diplomatic Rela-
tions with Rome Bill, against which he (sir IL. Inglis) had
that day presented a petition signed by 3,:a./0 clergymen of
the church a England. When the hon. member for Man-
chester told them in a tone of eloquence which he hoped not
to imitate—(a laugh)—that the church of Ireland must go
down and the church of England with it, he would say to
that hon. gentleman that he hoped and was confident that
the church of Irelandaael England would lane survive his sect.
With regard to his noble friend at the head of the govern-
ment, he must ask his what h^ intended to do with the bill
of which he gave notice on the lot of June, for altering the
oaths to he taken by memben of that house. (Loud cries of
" Hear.")
Mr. RICARDO said, that if the noble lord had been sin-
cere in the principles of free-trade he had so often enunci-
ated, he would not have abandoned his measure for repeal-
ing the navigation laws, which was in fact the keystone of
free-trade. (Hear, hear.) But whether he was right in
that opinion or not, certain he was, that it was de-eply wrong
and mischievous to delay the settlement of a great question.
In this case the delay would leave the shipowners,
merchants, and ship-builders of the country in a state of the
utmost uncertainty, which must be productive of the
greatest evil.
Mr. HUME concurred in the hen. member's opinion, and
called attention particularly to the effect of this extraordi-
nary announcement on the colonies, producing, as in this
country, the greatest uncertainty. (Hear, hear.) The con-
duct of the government respecting Ireland was still more ex-
traordinary, for after great promises of measures of amelio-
ration, their chief measure was a wigging bill. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. baronet the member for tne University of Oxford,
expressed a hope that the Irish church would last 11.1 long as
the church in this country. Ho (Mr. Hume) greatly
doubted it—(lowl cries of " hear, hear" from the
Ire ti
members)—for he looked at that church as being the root of
the evil in Ireland.
Mr. LABOUCHERE felt as deeply as any hon. member
the evil of deferring to another session the final decision of
parliament on the question of the navigation laws. Indeed,
he had in an early period of the present session, impr•esed on
the house the necessity of settling that question, and all he
would POW say, after the statement of his noble friend, was
that the decision of the government to postpone it had been
arrived at most reluctantly. lie was happy to think, how-
ever, that the discussion of the question had not been unat-
tended with advantage in Canada, and also in the West
Indies,thepspers relating to which, particularly from Canada,
would, he was sure, do much to convince the opponents of
the measure 'submitted by government of the absolute needs-
sity of a modification of the navigation laws.
Lord G. BENTINCK would not quarrel with the govern-
ment for abandoning the repeal of the navigation laws • but
tie beard with the deepest surpri'e the right hon. gentleman
who had just spoken say that the correspondence from
Canada afforded matter for congratulation, when he found it
stated in a despatch of Lord Elgin,that if the river St. Law-
rence should not continue to be the highway of commerce to
Canada, the inevitable result would be to draw Canada
closer to the United States, and dissolve the ties which con-
nected her wi'h the mother country. (Cheers.) Regarding
the West Indies, he should wait to see what they would say
in their petitions next year to a repeal of the navigation
laws. But he must just observe that there were now no less
than 31,600 tons of sugar in excess kept out of this country
by those laws. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MACGREGOR expressed his deep regret that her
Maesty's overnment should have found themselves in a
position that obliged them to abandon the ir measure on the
subject.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD complained of the non-legislation
for Ireland.
Mr. FORBES inquired what the government intended to
do with the bill for the registration of births, deaths, and ,
marriages in Scotland ?
After a few words from Mr. Slaney, Capt. Fechell, and '
Mr. Henley.
Mr. W. FAGAN thanked the hon. member for Man- ,
chester for the way in which he spoke sf Ireland. Two
measures were passed for that country with the rapidity of
lightning—a coercion and a gagging bill—but the govern-
ment had wholly foiled in their promises of measures
of amelioration, excepting the I ncumhered Estates
Bill. Such a statement would not satisfy his con-
stituents, nor any portion of the Irish people.
With every respect ter the house, he was of opinion, after an
attentive consideration of the manner in which its busieess
was conducted, that it was utterly impossible for the house
to do justice to the affairs of Ireland—in fact it had not time
to devote to the concerns of that eountry. Every succeeding
day convinced him the more of the absolute necessity, in
order to maintain the connexien between the two countries,
that the affairs of Ireland should be transacted there, and
that the laws by which she was governed ought to be passed
by a parliament of her own. (Hear, hear.)
Sir D. NORREYS inquired what had become of the Lill
(for the introduction of which leave had been given on
Friday night) fur the conversion of leaseholds for lives re-
newable for ever into freehold tenures. He had been given
to understand that this—another remedial measure for De-
ism would not be proceeded with. At all events it hail
laideon the table.
ir G. GREY (handing a copy of the bill to the hon.
member), chimed that the bill had not only been intro-
duced, but, as he saw, was actually printed. (Laughter.)
Jar D. NORREYS said, he had not received a copy until
that moment, and the statement he had male rested on
the authority of one of the hon. members, whose name was
appended to the bill. But, apart from that measure, he
must remark that the promises of the government with re-
spect to Ireland had been great, but their performances had
Leen moat miserable. Where were the promind alteration

tlon turned on benefit to the consumer ; the consumer was
not at all interested in • quantity of rum being introduced
in lieu of a quantity of splits of home production. On the
contrary, the introduction of • more *eductive and delete-
rious spirit, instead of being an advantage to the consumer,
would have altogether an opposite tendency. lie should not
object to see the distilling interest of this c Amity. diminished
by the spread of temperance, or by the duty being raised so
high as to lessen the consumption of spirits. In 1846 the con-
sumption of rum in Ireland wasonly 74,000 gallons ; last year,
with a differential duty of 9d., it was 176,000 gallons. It was
gradually increasing • and, should this measure become law,
the people in Ireland acquire a taste for hat spirit, to
their manifest injury. The Irish distiller, in particular, had
great cause for complaint, when he saw that his interest as
a manufacturer was sacrificed to the unryiest of a measure
propounded by government, which had not given satis'ec-
tion to any party—sacrificed. too, in the teeth of
the leaders and friends of the West India party, whose
«pinions were decidedly against the government mea ure.
If the measure were one of a comprehensive mare, carrying
out the principles of free trade and cheap ming an article of
consumption, it should have his decided support when
' he found that • measure which had neon universally con-
demned in the house and out of it was to he made the pre-
text for ruining the distillers—for such he believed would be
its effect—he must oppose such a measure. There had been
something like a breach of faith with the distillers ; for last
year the right hon. gentleman had stated that a protective
duty of Gd. a gallon would only be a fair one. Notwithstand-
kg this, after receiving varieus ref resentations from the dis-
tiller's, he had made the differential duty equal to 9d., an
the distiller' looked upon that as a settlement. The distil-
lers were ready to carry out the principles of Gee trade
in reference to their own trade as will as
others; and Mr. Cur an emient distler of the
metropolie, whose eviderincee, the right' hon. gentleman teemed
to have overlooked, had stated that in his manufactory
40,000 quarters of grain were annually worked up into
800,000 gallons of Bntish spirits ; but that if the excise re-
strictions were removed he could work up annually 96,000
quarters of grain, and pre Luce his spirits at 11.6 d. per gallon,
the average price, according to the sight hon. gentleman, be-
ing 2s. Hence, the restrictions wire equivalent to an in-
creme of 61 a gallon in the price. He and other Irish
representatives had been much disappointed in the course
taken by the right hon. gentleman : he tht Wore felt it his
duty to oppose this motion. was proposed, in the flint
place, to make an allowance for the malt duty paid by the
distillers; but it should be known that scarcely any
malt spirits were manufactured in Ireland, malt
was little used in the distilleries except in Scot-
land. In Ireland the quantity of malt used by
the raw grain distiller was nearly double that used
by the raw grain distillers in this country ; and 21d. a gallon
would be more like an equivalent for it than the 11d. pee-
r:treed by the right hon. gentleman. After a cful exami-
nation of the various calculaticns placed before the West
India committee, he found the allowance of a penny a
gallon for pl .nt was a fair one ; and that the right hon.
gentleman had entirely overlooked. For the alterations be-
tween distilling and brewing which now nets es: eily took
place, and the consequent loss of saccharine matter, an allow-
ance of 2d, per gallon at least ought to be made. As to the
rectification, ho believed the distillers were quite cornet in
estimating their loss at 314 a gallon unucr the present
system of charging the duty at the worm's end. The right
ben. gentleman was mistaken in supposing that no rectifica-
tion took place in Ireland; the government distillers
distilled twice in order to produce a good article,
and that was a species of uglification. That produced
a loss of another penny, making in all 71d. per gallon.
On the subject of the decreases, the right hou. gentleman
had frankly stated to the Irish deputation that there would
be no difficulty whatever on that head, and he stopped all
discussion. The justice of the claim was so evident on the
face of it, that lie could not do otherwise. The rieht hon.
gentleman had r dmitted that the West Indian distillers ob-
tained a protection of 34,1. through not being charged the de-
creases ; hence, the British distillers were qufte justified in
claim,ng that amount, even if the loss on the decreases did
not reach so much. But the right hon. gentleman had made
a mistake in his calculation. The mode of gauging adopted
when the spirits came from the worm's end differed mate-
rial', from the mode of gauging them wit. n they came out
of bond; and hence the miscalculation. One of the most
intelligent distillers is Ireland state-I that upon an segre-
gate quantity of 225 ,780 gallons of spirits shipped to Eng-
land, the total deficient), was above 4,500 gallons, on
which the duty was 1,8581. 10s., end this they had to pay
in lull. He contended that the sum of 343.. gallon was
only a fair allowance for decreases. II the right hon. gen-
tleman persisted in maintaining the view be now took, he
ought at least, for the sake of the home distillers, to keep
the differential duty at 9d. Mr. Wood had stated before the
committee that he had no means of contradicting the state-
ment of the distillers as to exclee restrictions, though he
marled that where they claimed 31d. a gallon for decreases,
only 4d. was due, and that therefore their claim for exc
ise
ise
restrictions ought to be reduced in the same proportion.
admitted that 6d. a gallon was a fair protection, hut argued
that the excise restrictions ought to be fixed much lower
than the distillers estimated them. Following out the cal-
culations of the chairman of the excise and himsel', the
dis-
tilling interest in Ireland and Scotland would be seriously
injured
or by this measure. According to the report of
noble ld (Lord G. Bentinck), the sincere and able advtheo-
. tate of the West Indian interests, that body had no just
Muse of camplaint against the present duties. He should,
therefore, move as an amendment that the chairman report
progress end ask leave to sit again.
Copt. JONES thought the measure of the government
would prove extremely injurious to Ireland. He should,
therefore, support the amendment moved by the hon. mem-
ber for Cork.
Mr. REYNOLDS said it was the opinion of the Irish die-
tillers that if the differential duty was reduced from 93. to
4d. they would be almost annihilated. He thought the RO-
vernment would not at least have gone below 6d., and that
they would allow for waste and leakage. He understood
the right hon. gentleman to say to the Irish deputation that
there would be no insuperable objection on his own part to
make the duty Gd. Ile thought that a great advantage was
given to the colonial grower over the native grower by this
measure, for it was after all an agricultural question—one be-
tween eats and sugar. The Irish and Scotch manufacturers
had intolerable disadvantages to contend against in the excise
regulations. The allowauce to the colonial importer was 3d.
for leakage and natural evaporation, while the allowance to
the Irish distiller was only a farthing a:.d a fraction of a
farthing. He was a fret-trader, but he was opposed to the
application of free-trade, as contained in the present mea-
sure to Ireland. (Laughter.) The Irish members who voted
for free-trade in corn, and the Irish people who were in
favour of that measure, acted with the utmost disinterested-
ness, for that measure was not for the benefit of Ireland.
Ireland had, therefore, a claim upon the consideration of the
how e. (Laughter.) She had been called the right lisnd of
England ; let them bewere that they did not convert
her into a left arm. (Loud laughter.) He thought
that the colonies were a drag upon this country;
and that she would be better without them.
Mr. DARKLY looked upon the present proposition as
part of the general measure brought forward for the relief of
the West India interest, and he would deal with it in that
aspect. He differed from the noble lord, who deserved so
much credit from the West India body for his exertions
in
their behalf, with aspect to this part of the question. He
could only account for the noble lord's opinion on this sub-
ject by supposing, not that he loved the West India interest
less, but that he loved certain interests' at home more. It
was evident from what had been proved before the committee
how much the price of rum would be under the 4d. duty ;
and he would be much surprised if its effect would
not be to give great benefit to the West Indian
body. As a West India owner, he would cnesider
his situation much more desperate if they did not
derive considerable advaltacte from the change of duty.
The position of the home distillers had been much improved
of late years, so that they had less to fear from competition
than formerly. Ho thought the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had completely cut away the ground from the Scot h
distillers. If they were able to compete with the English
distillers in the English market they had a very poor case
indeed against the introduction of colonial spirits. In a
pamphlet lately published, called " Ooservations on the
Evidence befere the Committee on Coffee and Sugar Plant-
ing," by a Scotchman, it was stated that from 150,000/. to
200,0001. was paid to 'five or six Scotch distillers as hush
money. The same observations applied to Ireland, so that
the consumers of this country not only paid the dis-
tiller here, but they also paid for keeping the Irish
and Scotch whisky out of the market. The chair-
man of the excise, who was the best authority,
on this subject, said that 4d. would be a fair differential
duty, and he hoped the government would-not be induced to
act aside an authority of so much weight. The colonies
would watch the conduct of the government in dealing with
the question of the duty of rum, and would test the shi-
cerity of their free-trade opinions by the manner in which
they dealt with it. If the colonists now saw free-traders
linked together in support of a government monopoly they
would come to a conclusion that that body was a very selfish
one. He accepted the present measure as an instalment of

sugars great strem had been laid upon • supposed difference in
the case of the malt distil:ers and that of the distillers from raw
grain. In thatdistinction he could not concur. It was clear that
isoth competed with success with each other, and therefore
both were entitled to equal protection. and adequate
to of
for the one would be adequate protection tor the other.
The malt &stiller' got an additional price for their produe-
tion,in accordance with the additional price of the commodity
from which it was manufactured. lie did
groun not d
pit th
theesier
claims to increased protection on the
adoption of the system of rectifying their spirits.
gallons;ht
mita expense in Englend would not exceed 21d. per
and further consideration convinced him that ne as
he rig
same
ht in
the rejection of these claims on that ground. Iwn
t
way he had resisted the claim of the raw grain distillers on
account of the alteration of the
ime cornd
duty. With respect to
the malt duty they. cl because a certain
quantity of malt was indiereneably necessary to enable
teem to distil from raw grain; the proportion was 1 Ilth
of malt to 11 lithe of raw grain. To that event they
were entitled to some allowance, in consideration or the duty
paid on the malt so indispensably usedlittle mo. They cleimed
the 14d.
per gallon, hut I Id. per gallon was a re than y
were actually entitled to. The next claim rested on the de-
creases, for which they asked 31,11. per gallon ; and this was
the amount put by Mr. Kaley in his evidence before the ee-
lect committee—the same amount as was allowed on rums
but a parliamentary paper to which that gentlemen had re-
ferred showed that in 'retard the deficiency duty allowed
en spirits warehoused in Ireland had only been equal to one
farthing 15-100ths per gallon, while on that war. housed in
Scotland tee allowance WAS Tio.looths of a farthing per gallon.
These figures differed in a very slight degree fr. .m the state-
ment he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had made in 1847.
That statement gave 33 100tbe Ma penny ter Scetland, and
for Ireland inactly the same—a farthing and 15-100ths of a
penny. With regard to England there were not the canes
means of drawing an accurate conclusion; but it was evident
that if an allowance per gallon were made a qual to what he
had stated, it would be an equivalent for the whole loss from
decreases to which spirits were subject in the warehouse.
lie had been very anxious to allow the duty to be levied on
the spirits coming out of the warehouse instead of at the
worm's end, ae at present; bet he was sorry to say the risk
to the revenue would be to such an amount that he should
not now be justified in incurring it. As between the distil-
ler and .he revenue this alteration would incur the risk of
losing 100,0001. of duty, which amount would be sacrificed by
only levying the duty when the spirit came out of bond
instead of levying it at the worm's end. So far
as protection against colonial spirits was concerned, if he
gave the British distillers Id. a gallon—the utmost they
themselves asked—this would be more than an ample pro.
tection for any loes they might incur by. paying the duty at
the worm's end. Taking lid. as an equivalent for the malt
duty, and id. as an equivalent for what they would gain by
being allowed to pay duty on the spirit coming out of the
warehouse—this would be infinitely more advantageous to
them than en alteration in the mode of levying the duty;
for in that case there would clearly be no reason whatever
for putting an additional duty on colonial runs. As in Eng-
land spirits were not warehoused at all, as a large quantity
ef Scotch spirits, and about three-fourths of the Irish, were
sent into this country without bring warehoused, it was
quite clear that a greater benefit would be conrotectioferredn
on the home distiller by giving him this p
than by altering the mode of levying the duty.
lie now came to the lout item, the excise restric-
tions. A most formidable list of those restrictions had
been made out by the noble lord opposite (Lord G. Ben-
tinek ) in his resolutions ; but viewing them in the intelli-
gible, business-like way of pounds, shillings, and pence, they
did not ran up to an amount which need al ran the distiller.
Various documents stated the cost of maeufactuting liritish
spirits at about 23. the Radon, b. fore the duty was paid ; of
this, Is, tide was the cost of the raw material, and ad. the cost
of the manufacture. Ile did not deny that the excise restric-
tions interfered with the manufacture to tome extent, but it
was to an extent much less than was commonly believed;
and, in some instances, that interference had not been with-
out utility for the protection of the distiller himself. Be
that as it might, the suppeeitien that out of the cost of ma-
nufacture, 6(1. the gallon, more than one-third, was
due to excise restriction., was a tupposition that
no one acquainted with the expenses of production would
readily receive. But that calculation wts not borne out by
the information before the house. Gentlemen in stating
their own case always took the me t fevourehle view of it ;
and there were some rem:irkable instances of this in the case
of the distillers claims. To CatiOnik the decreases rat 31,1
per gallon, when he I ad shown that they did not amount to
gentlemen tnok of their owe ease. Two years ago a state-
ment was put into his nand, in which the distidersthemselves
estimated the expensesof rectification at Gel.; but by theirstate-
'tient given before the committee this year the estimate had
dwindled down to 31. Two or three years before, their esti-
mates had been 10d., then Bd. Hence, he was warraeted in
saying that statements made fur the purpose of making out
a case were not made with all the accuracy tut wu di sir-
able. Ile held in Lis hand a statement of a claim
made on the Board of Excise for loss by decreases on
four casks of spirits imported into this country from Leith,
on the 27th March last; aid the amount claimed was id.
and 53.100ths of a farthing per mitten. The Chairman of
Excise was a little astonished at this, and was led to suspect
that the instance was rather a singular one. He accordingly
took the quantities of decrease on certain other casks im-
ported by the same parties (Messrs. Frisk, Browning, and
Co.) about the same time; and he found that upon 20 casks
of Scotch spii its imported tram Leith on the 23rd of March,
four days before the other, the actual loss amounted to
19.lO0the ef a farthing per gall n ; and upon 20 casks im-
ported four days later, the 31st March, the loss, calculated in
the same way, was 43 100ths of a farthing—in both eases in-
finitely less than the average Is estimated by the Chairman
of Excise. That estimate had been formed on 9,591 casks
of Scotch and Irish spirits imported into London from the
6th April, 1817, to the sth April, 1818, and amounted to Ist.
and 42-100ths per gallon-50.100ths less than the average
formerly stated by the chairman of the excise. He did not
deny that the loss might be as stated on the four casks im-
ported on the '27th March, as there were particular circum-
stances connected with that importation ; but it show'
how little single statements could be relied on for forming'
a general; average.
Lord U. BENTINCK.—Hear, hear. Especially with the
excise.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
estimate of the chairman of excise bad been more than
borne out by the fact ; he had not stated the case so favour-
ably to his own view as he might have done. The proper,
course was to take a sufficient number of facts whereon to
found an induction, and then the conclusion would probably
be right. (Hear, hear.) In this way the noble lord oppo-
site would have &end that the conclusion he had drawn
from that single cargo was not borr.c out by the general
average. No man could suppose that, of the whole cost of
the manufacture of spirits -6d. a gallon—more than one-
third was due to excise restrictions. But Mr. Patrick
Chamber, a distiller, of Wishaw, had sent in a statement,
which appeared at page 8:1 of the report of the noble lord's
committee ; he was a highly respectable man, to whose
statement credence might be given.
Mr. FAGAN—Hear, hear.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad
to hear his hon. friend behind him bear testimony to the
character of Mr. Chambers, whose statement was the more
entitled to reliance in this case, because it had been put in
for another pupae. Ile stated the quantity of barley con-
sumed, the quantity of proof spirits produced, the whole
items of the expense of manufacturing spirits, and the result
of his calculation was that the net charge, including the
expense of making malt, amounted to 31d. per gallon. the
had no motive for exaggerating that statement either on one
side or the other ;7therefore it might he taken as a fair state-
ment of the cost at which spirits might be manufactured in
Scotland. Could any one believe that more than one half
of that cost, namely twopence. was produced by the
excise restrictions? Neverthelest, he proposed to allow 2d.
a gallon for the whole claim in respect of these restrictions
and, taking the cost of the manufact ire at fide a gallon—still
more if taken at 31(1., which he believed would be nearer
the truth—it was pertectly incredible that the cost of produc-
tion could he enhanced at the rate of 2d. a gallon by the ex-
cise restrictions. He saw no other grounds cn which the
distillers could claim protection aeainst colonial spirits. In
awarding 4el. per gallon as a differential duty to countervail
the legislative disadvantages under which the distillers and
producers of British spirits were placed, he conceived he had I
given them a full equivalent. Looking at the relative prices
of the two articles, the difference was not greater than would
be compensated by the protection he proposed. In the draft
report of the noble lord, at page 174, he took the average
cost price of ordinary whisky at 2s. 3)d., and of ,rum at
22. 4)d., and the prices of the other varieties ran
very near each other. With these prices there
was no reason is suppose that the English dis-
tiller would be ruined by the importation of rum
at a duty of 4d. The whole amount of colonial spirits
which had been introduced into this country last year was
only three millions of gallons, out of a total consumption of
upwards of twenty-six millions and a half; and no doubt
e of rum last year,

-. , -- - ---
there had been an increased consumption._
owing to the deficiency of the barley crop. But he did not what was due to the colonists.
suppose that, in future years, there would be any such in- Lord G. BENTINCH assured the house that he bad
crease in the consumption of rum as to produce any sensible never heard any complaint from Norfolk barley.grevren on
effect on the large mass of British spirits consumed in this the subject of the spirit duties. The hon. gentleman sp.
wintry. With regard to the question of revenue, he as- peared ao credulous about the matter of bush money that ke
Burned the loss at about 62,0001. ; and he confessed he calcu- really did not wonder at the rest of his arguments. When
laird upnn an increased consumption sufficient to produce the hon. member &dared that the chairman of excise was
that amount of revenue. An additional consumption of the only person who gave reliable evidenc., before the corn-
-150,000 gallons in England would do it, or of 300,000 mittee he probably was not aware that Mr. John Wood had
gallons in Scotland, or of 400,000 in Ireland, map- himself declared that whst he had stated was mere matter
posing the increase to take place entirely in one country. of opinion and that it ought to be taken by the committee
It was not likely that the increase would take with considerable deduction en that account. Mr. Wood
place wholly either in one country or another ; but he took upon himself to arraign the evidence and impeach the
thought he might fairly assume an increase of about 200,000 statements of all the distllers of England and of Scot-
gallons on the total consumption. He hoped it would be land. Ile declared that people as high in station and cheese-
mere, for the sake of the colonists ; and a reduction in • dif- ter as himself—men whose veracity he could not pretend to
ferential duty always operated in favour of the consumer. question—were to he dealt with on the principle of the rule
He befeved the in eeeee t, of both would be emsulted by the of three as far as their evidence respecting decreases
measure he had proposed ; and he thought he had shown to was concerned. (Hear, hear.) This wz.s the whig chair-
any person who would fairly consider the sufject, that in men's insolent way of treating gentlemen and men of unim-
meintaining a differential duty of 4d. per gallon between petehable integrity.
Butt in reference to this very evidence
British and colonial s irate adequate compensation was given of Mr. John Wood :
bon h subject of decrease that indi-
to the British distiller, iu respect of the malt duty, the vidual wite obliged susequently to amend his own evidence,
decreases, the excise restrictions, and the other disadvantages and to admit that he had himself erred in the truth to the
under which be alleged he was placed by the existing laws. extent of 75 per cent. Who, then, was to be trusted—the
With regard to the toes which would be produced in the co- trade, or this chairman of excise? (Protectionist cheers.)
lonics or in this country, he did not profess to go into that at But the Chancellor of the Exchequer made another state-
all; his principle was, as far as legislative enactment was meat respecting the excise gauge, with a view to prove that
concerned, tu allow the roducers in the colonies and in this the trade were wrong and the customs right. But why bad
country to come into compelition on equal terms. That, he not Mr. Wood made that statement to the committee, where
believed, would be effected by the proposal he submitted to its truth or falsehood could have been Lirly tested No,
the committee ; and he would now conclude by piecing in the statement was reserved for the House of Commons,
the hands of the chairman a resolution, the effect of which where of cour:e it was impossible to test its accuracy.
was to substitute for the present differential duty of 9d. a Where Mr. Wood, therefore, gave an opinion, he acknow-
duty of ail. per gallon. ledged himself that his evidence was worth very little ;
The CHAIRMAN having read the resolution at length, whilst where be spoke es to matters cf fact it
Mr. FAGAN said the propo,ition nommade differed ma- was clear that that evidence was worth still less
tonally trona that which the right lion. oentlemen had him- The preamble of the Channel I.lands Act of 1845, framed
self made on a tamer occasion. He did not think this titles- by the right hon, member for Cambridge, fully admitted the

principle of the right of the British diltillet to peeel,,,,a,
ous burden,
he boa m^mbw~
the
their country
t ection, in order
Lhutotibmeituhtoelelebot:shri
nintteriihdintvddetar
il,antrthttyyt:ier:vveatTi,hribi
by
lcapalnliwnithmsuhnhfil, neenrtctnlsrt excise
d.
y. hsbch
i.eGaufovrd,:o stated
dlrcreuiynd f that,
r e nm
l I i acceding
ns st trol i theg
repeale n d t ef r e
but the Irish members hail been fully and distinclly •
at
West Indians, the pretended boon would turn bths
fi
y av
any' hing, better than a mockery. They were the.ret
tte
to do
jbec assess
es,.
leter ddi
tthntuet
hooPen:O'tut oouyhnitevffic themselvese
la
assent
ram, asi
vhre on 4raatnlosrio doatibtnnt4l
sile liedtaalfmreduoraootrpet imypudot. 'tlipuoneue:td:tni heialst:lneaenintilturhoit:be,teurb:nibt:: Tuf:bettrtlial:tebEr
of the
the
eh
the sealugeaniArwadheoofirtehries coatunptrre*ey. nt(ChelPeer"isaßt:Liall the
to the
government proposal were on ac.ount of the earns ',r
Lions, his opinion was that those latter were if asit pin-
rather too favourable to the British distilllers. (Rau, ha;
lie denied the ext nt of hardship co tiplai:.ed of by timbal
as arising from the excise. In some cases the irvi •
might he an inconvenience but in others it was
an advantage, and in no ease mere ro than
that of spirits. It gave a great additional protara,„ tom
manufacturer against the frauds of his 'erne% (gru,
hear.) The heavy penalties had been much dwelt east
e
witnesses before the committee, but they were seiaa„,.,:
filched, bring, generally speaking, merely held up 0,(3';-.
recent to protect the honest portion of the meenifacerm
When the grievances of the excise on spirits were van of
let them consider the case of soap. The excise was 114, as' I
hard, and Id. on soft soap, while the duty on coheir: sea;
imported into this country was precisely the same, sad yet
he new. r had heard an irstenee of a ga4sa
manufacturer complaining of the competition. In jra.
land, also, there was no soap duty, nor was thew aa
restriction on the manufacture, neither was there guy 7
teevailing d ..ty on its importation into this counter And
yet, what was the consequence ? Did Ireland overflew the
country with none? (Loud lautthter.) The fact en, that
England sent 6000,000 cwts. of a ap to Ireland eery 1,0.
(Rear, hear.) And this, notwithstar.ding those treateadar
excise restrictions of which so much bad been mid, 14,
therefore, excluded from consideration any allowance te iy
distillers on the ground of excise restrictions. (tjaar,jaa)
The next point to which the noble lord had alluded was da
question of decrease; and here he must express bis diweas
from the noble lard's estimate of the value of the "jam
given by the chairman of the excise. The noble lad I
attached no value to that gentleman's evidence, beam, ¢ .
had been given with diffidenee.
Lord O. BENTINCK.—What I said was, that I ludfral
the evidence of the chairman of the excise board, in whir'
he expressed himself diffidently as t the restriction, bat
I most positively as to matters of fact, and that in enema(
fact he wan wrong in the proportion of four to act. flint) I
Mr. GOULBURN had understood the noble bed tom.
press himself as attaching no importance to the claumm.,
opinion. For his part, he should attach the more Tonto a
I man's evidence who expressed himself with chtbiene ma
caution. (Rear, hear.) But to return to the deaease.ly
differences of opinion which had ~ten exhibited on this mai
arose from ono party relying on an isolated case, sad any
I other taking a fair average spreading over a ressonable ma.
her of years. What he (Mr. Goulbure.) contended emu
takings fair average of years—the allowance made by t!,
Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely—three (otitis
I gallon, was a fair and reasonable allowance fer deans&
lie therefore saw no reason for opposing the connate
proposal on that ground. If there was one duty more he
another with which the excise authorities ought to b, star
fled, it was the excise paid on spirits in England: it me
1 them no trouble, being paid by night great houses; mint
both the late and present chairman had told Itimtbetiade
opinion the advantage of the British distiller was too Brie a
over his colonial competitor. The noble lord objected tb*
government proposal would give a boon of only 64,0111.1 e
annum to the colonial producer. Be it so, and if theses
tape to the colonial producer were small, so veldt be th
injury to the British distiller. If the latter could is
1.50,0001. to keep his Scotch competitor out of the metheill
could hardly be injured by • sum of 61,0001. conceded**
colonial producer. (Hew-, hear.) Ile should ass fah
detein the house, save by expressing his full concurrent:
the justice of the proposal which givernment had mem
Mr. FORBES refire tted that he could not give lineup?:
to the proposal of her Majesty's ministers.
Mr. FAGAN intim ited that as his object bad bent.
tained by the discussion which had taken place, beret
not call for a division.
The CHAIRMAN—Then, will any hon. gentleman%
that I leave the chair
Mr. FAGAN—I will move that you Inn the CZ
(Cries of " Divide.")
The committee divided—Ayes
Noes
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL declared his intention of r*
every opposition to the main resolution.. R
The
te
propositionthan the colonial distiller.
CHANCELLOR he
Itithe E2s,uucHuEQ.Lorell
proiiiims
erould
sod 11t P.
HOWARD,
the
eutuchainnsrtr
Amfrte. rmalufeNwsEwLorLdsmfroveomd
tbMart.

Ir. IL J. O'CONNELL suggested to his Me. frind
that at this period of the session he would not damn a •
defeat the government by adjournment, but take these
the house on the main question. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCIIERE hoped also that that 034110
rash
be adopted. The whole subject had been fully `seer
bet, re a select committee. He hoped that a mom vari
used to be the exception, but which had lately bemusing
the rule, would not be persevered in. It was silo ota
plained that the government were not active enounkiap
sing the measures thy brought forward, but if ennlmi
met by that mode of opposition it was impossible kraal
do so. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. KEOGH thought the motion of the hon. eawkri
Limerick not an unreasonable one; for Irish =emboli
been induced to believe, on the occasion of a deputes
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that no such propMe
as that before the house would have been brought form
They had on the contrary been led to suppose that the tea
meet of last year, which was one of gnat impediments
distilling and agricultural interest, would not be:i
tubed. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEHUSU rep!
the reasons which had induced him to bring torus:ll
present resolution, and denied that any such hope hid St
held out to the deputation alluded to. Rethought:Ma
further consideration of the question moan to be apes.
After • few words in explanation from Mr. %too
Mr. H. J. O'CONNELL,
Mr, BARELY said, that in justice to the ram osier
Irish members ought to suffer the que,tion of the cliffeica
duties to be as speedily settled as p amble, tar the moms
ty that had prevailed err long had been very injurious tone
who dealt in rum.
Mr. ',l). CALLAGHAN urged the hon. meshes
Limerick to persevere in his motion for an adjoartamf
I the question.
Col. DUNNE said that the evil which the present es
sure would inflict in 'viand was so great that, next
standing he regretted the loss of time t'ic. would was
must urge the hon. member for Limerick to pond ea
motion to report progress. lie had another reason ta'
lug the debate to be adjourned, which was becalm: etc!
Irish question was brought on in the house MIMI
absence of the representatives of Ireland.
If
Lord G. BEN TINCE admitted that there was one tx,
in the hon. and gallant member's last observation, feat
was not an Irish member on the West India committer.t.•
withstanding the interests of the distillers of thst roc!
were involved in the questions discussed by that •
If the hon. member for Limerick persisted in his wax)
(Lord G. Bentinck) thought that both the Irish and Sus:
distillers had a claim to a postponement of the debate.
After a few words from Mr. 13011LBCRN,
BUTLER denied that the deputation of Ist
members bad waited on the Chancellor of the f.so
quer with any dishonourable motives, and urged de t,
jou -nment of the debate on a question of much noes
importance than some hon. members seemed to ape!!
the ground that so many hon. members were absent .7
discharge of paramount duties at the amine in Ireland
The committee then divided on the amendsneatthS7
chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit eel
For the amendment 4B
Against it .. 127-79
During our absence from the gallery we understsar,
Col. DUNNE moved as a further amendment da
chairman do now leave the chair,
The committee *gain divided—For the aruendmestS
A:4mq it .......
Mr, CALLAGHAN again urged delay, and MOT,
the government would fix an early day for tesustie
discussion.
After a conversation, in which Lord G. Bement'
Cardwell, Mr. M'Oregor, and Col. Douse joined, •
Lord .1. RUSSELL appealed to the house, on theft
of public convenience, and said it would be Quite imps
for the business of the country to be carried
ea
it was to he deferred from time to time,
certain members were absent. Could not do!
be discussed, because Irish 11116iVNI were re
duths
ear, hear. It seas the duty the
of those hon. bit
were
absent )to attend to their duties in the h use. (SM. ,
.
would, however, move that the chairman do report fr_ri
on the understanding that the debate should be rtwl
12 o'clock this day. (Hear.) aux fa'll°
Atter a few words from Mr. DUNCAN, an • ,
the gallery was cleared fur a division, but eon, tostg
The conversation was continued while the doors were

I:l7.er;e7rds
Mr. D. CALLAGHAN again moved that the MO
should report Progress.
The gall.ry was again cleared, and the committee
ou the main question as we were informed.
Fur the resolutions ..................116
Against d to, and the
................ . ........... 37—:9
The resolutions were then agree WO
journed at a quarter to 3 o'clock.

ELECTION COMMITTEE.-lEs/00
DUBLIN.—The objection as to grand j
pl
again raised, and the entire dayOCCLIet wita
arguments. The poll suff.red no diminutira.

THE OCEAN STEAMER BEEIIANN, Cap t. C
arriyed at Southampton yesterday, trots 11frtiltse
port •Ite left on Saturday. Sbe has brouthl tO.,P
100 of whom are for New York. She leteWass He it
• for
place on the 20th. The Washington will
for Southampton, on the 20th.