The Express.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 12, 1849:

at* 416,04 g
.1116 ibe
all thewilealitz to
mere meet . er the
am In real • are the used
erope, apd false sad misery to every farm bed bean dm
result. That state of things was attempted to De met by tel
sucesedre governments, sad principally by the runt go.
Vermont, by • system of public works. They had, bow-
Sea condemned es too wetly and eumbersome and
l ihey broke down Rader their owa weight. (lies.) Tir
seat system hied was a gratuitous distribution of relief by
maws of food alone. That WWI carried on on a erne seals,
and at me time share were no fewer than three alone of
ha rear of that aid. That was obviously ace a sys-
Fmlased for permanent adoption, sad when than was
relief, in October. 1649, that wholesale system
ef=rmigh the army of the commission over which
Met Meet able park anat. Sir Jelin Burgoyne, made,
els lit=res dose ; aad due that time had been
wine it was thought absolutely nersemary,
Means IS the 141/Mrlltke poor-law alms and in a goestear-
Mr Bum theßmllli of the maims themselves ; and astistrios
lea s partly derived it s& the British Lemeistint, and
prey hem the pubilo funds. _ (Hear, hear) He
4,44 aware that the :Gondar of her Majesto's pavement
had been exposed to condemnation and censure. It was
at for them to pronounes how far that was well deserved
• sot ; but throughout that cycle of misery which led
aired Ireland for the lest three years, one lonia, dew-
matiss had bra kept steadily is view by her !Wait,'"
psmsmest,
yeasseest, and had pervaded all their motives sad pro-
maw and that was, that, as far es they weld hey it, no
Via.sema.ashm:idel
es- dot ems ghee La-
die TIP wore no-
imrelly aware that
1:= he *PM mounsies year,
tee men rope which the ememannes of lbe
W. ern to lees, wholly fefied, it wee quite he
a peremaest, notwithstanding say activity dermight, or
wieniliesses, to save a srest number of pee* hem the op
,Lilideath of starrean. (Rear, hear.) Thy were far-
ng
erese, that is ordinary times it was set Ms proviase
of govereaut to provide for the daily enstmemse of the
people, bat under the 'remedial istad_ezerptional dream
slam which had seared ia Irked, they wen deem-
mined that amover it was monad that serer arida
;11414 SO oirenatared—win the mans of eadeeense
within their mesh were set edermate—whes therms no
=of thsk basal* to pram thest drain—when
was set bevel* Seen adorer a ikeirnallea of
life meat wise—thee they were determined that late kelp
should be brought, that food shard be gine sad that la
should be. mend. (Assn.) The severmase at the sea-
meaut of the penal seampty=: pediment ea
nails of 60,000& Si Os was &dressed teem the
palls Mad; fa anew to meet the aremary oar which
they kit thirstier gelled upon to make dal by day. That
prepashien was submitted Mparliammat. But how was it
rear& by the raker hum efudienessit ? Several members
smarted with Iran beneW were reported to have stated
it as their mars that Meproperty of Ireleni ought to eon
tribute to the nal el the perm of Inland. He ford ft
staled by a seaman who bad rendered great series in the
radars of what might have been thought at one time tn.
n expenditiere—tiat panthers was reported to
have that Is manyeerts of England the rates were much
higher thew May hei been in Ireland. In • parish in
Norfolk, ler biIiMINS, Me rates had amounted to 16s. 6d.
in the paned, sad diem 11•141 away other perishes in which
the rates for the lot he ran lad bass more than in Ire-
land. It was reperell Wham bees said by another member
that every gnat pertain the misery mad poverty of the
muatry, and that the 60,0001. grated would leave Coanaught
men marble than it was balsa ; sad it was farther stated
hustromdcss. dean who held a distiessisked port in the
which preened the prima scoorament, that
this mud be the last gnat, when it we remembered that
Irked paid no property tax, no messed taus, and that the
Rados Cur an erdts was lower than it was in Emboli. It,
earl that gentleman, there meet be rates in aid, they must
ha mimed in Ireland herself. Such seemed to be the general
haling ofthe other house of parliament. Ho had said that
the government were disposed to propose to par:lament to
persevere in the course which had hitherto bees pursued of
applying
for mid from the imperial resources until better days
arrive, and until more permanent and sub-
stantial modes of relief, net only were devised, but had
Maned their hoped-for fruits. The goverassat, how-
ever ware enable to gain the acquires's* of paella-
medi to • aratinuanes ot such • rune. The actual pra-
ises of the Mil of which he bad to move the second reeding
weft very concise. They authorised the pro-s* nasomis.
doers to levy • rate in aid upon all unions and electoral
divisions of tread for the relief of such unions or electoral
divisions as they should conceive at the time stood in
need of such ester* aid—that the rate in aid
should be limited to the amount of sixpence in the
posed of the peorlaw valuation for the resent year and
the year immediately pereding. The Semester of • county
we authorised to impound • half army rate which might be
collated for the relief of the poor mar the amount of six-
pence in the ppaouunnd had besa obtained. The amount which
it was akalated this rate would prodnee it it should be
raised throughout the whole of Inland was 323,0001.,
and that coupled with the 60,0001. already voted for the
present year would Mbar-and the amount of contributions
out of re fund to which it was necessary to apply, fromexclu-
sive sours, in sid of the distress of Leland hat year. Every
union had been 11114141 liable under the bill turn rate in aid.
If the entire sum raised by the rate in aid should not be suf-
frier to meet the expenditure which the government
deemed it necessary to incur, still it would be the duty of
ber Majesty's ministers to expend a further amount for the
=of praying life on the credit of the rate in aid.
111 the exact case, then, the government had to deal
with ? There were a number of insolvent micas to the west
of the Shannon in Ireland. Thom anima were utterly im-
potent as to their self-support Minister thought that in all
ark anions support ought to.bs given, and for their relief
MIS government considered they had a right to look to Irish
41111.111f0111. Twenty-one of those unions were absolutely de-
peasat on relief from without. Ten or a dozen more were
is a seedy similar condition, and one hundred unions in
baud parsed a greater or lees degree of capability to al-
gid the insolvent unions. The volumes of many, if not
the majority, of the eras' in Dieter did not Mina Is. Pd.
to the pound. In Muster It was Ss. Md., and in
Waiter le. 1144. in the pound. dad ia order
Ma dire should be no room for believing that
the aims in these three provinces were unfairly
leer* he would rate that there were many unions in Rig-
hted Midi were not in • mere prosperous condition than
semi of the Irish animas were. There were, according to
the returns of the poor law aonamissioners, twenty unions in
=::1 where the rates were 4s. Id. in the pound ; twenty
paying 81. 1144. in the pound; sad four or Iva
trwhere the rates were as high as Ma lie. IL to
in the pound. The opposition to the resent as-
sure arose, as he conceived, from an objection to the par
airs of the bill. Re could sot adroit that it was prepay
asked why Antrim and Belfast should be called upon to ear
tribute to the relief of Connaught any more than Warta-
shire. Thor who made this rowan ought le es-
collect that Ragland paid 12,000,0001. of ammesed
sad other taxes, from which Ireland was totally
enseept. Was there anything unfair, therefore, Is
mating the more favoured porticos of Ireland, whir wen net
so highly taxed as Ragland and Sesdand, to contribute he
a limitedlsial to the alleviation of so unpartisan and se
saute • es of disteem as was oshibited at their own
errs ? T e isle is all man no &Milken
machinery fur its collars, me may extra staff, or ether
expense ; the whole paraphermlia fee He easy and cheap levy
was at head, and it chairs myeared to be the reediest
mesas of meeting a dread whin could not be withstood.
As rate in std was she laded in its duration ; and thaw
fere, under all these airmadesses, although be regretted the
necessity for istdm it, minister bed no eompeselim he
having so as With rasped le what bad been mid ni
the unpaid balsams of the unarm he bandies workhouses,
be coon only my that, if the abasksement of the claims for
those winnow was to be made the mess of sestribudag
As
the relief of Irish distress, this waddle • mat nosily. As
rather wished to ass the.. airmen made the mien of on.
tending the rakes of workhouses. Then wen ether am
urea pending for the relief of Iroise& The
Bill ins one • the Important garden amiltiri=
ddealing with snomerred estates was tottbee owl
if he were asked why the rate in aid wee an Simla veer
sure, and why it had not been brought forward ia
with the warns he referred to, he would reply that the
ministry did not dare to delay bringing forward such a bill.
(The sable lord then proceeded te read a series of extras
Ma Me reports of the Poor-law inspector is Ireland, show-
lag the extremity of distress to which the population were re.
third.) Their lorderpecould not bat lay those statements Si
beast. A mighty woo was 111 their prewar; such a woo as
was never yet beheld. Let the government be blamed
if their ,adshis pleased ; bet let them set, is their owes
,setsellesl the resent bill, and thereby mounter risks the
ty of which they would net easily be able M
Tke Illed of RODEN mid that as no noble lord was MGM
istimately regoaketed with the present mejert than himself
he heel bees the feet to rise in order to move that the bill
be reed a mesa time that day six months. He had Ilan
to the Mail earl most anxionsly, being most &dress to
meet them damnifies which he had so graphically described.
Bat Whoa be herd him Jrnpono the nu is aid as
• MIDI of aria dame dimwit m„ sad who he ye.
teal le his swan& against Oho okiesdoes to that
rate fa he meet say that trusties to the shanateristie
in
rand candor of the noble ade ,he certainly did ex-
nitpes him Si vote spied the bill which he had proposed.
But he perceived lam the 'ore *arra speech that he was
resolved to pear= in the major worse by the
ger man% which, as he was aware, had aanifrated great
sandy le meet the Millealthias in Ireland. But the noble
lord bed set gone kr seseg bask is Mea repeati
the distress of Ireland. Ea the yew his
11MA ds
ng
manseion
wee keens the nook of whisk male indue the germ
mena to kraal a peer bill kr Irina, ark mad into
• law. lie ha lam part fa the debates tee that assure,
es their Iseabige would remember, but when it brae law
be did la bed to carry it out folly, fairly, sad
Re was Mama of a board el and ha
must say that the resat sathisetimahad resulted
from the awls of Us board le say ewe the est.
The noble nut gave as an illedesties the ems of &friend of
his own, who bed two estates, the me yielding him 10,0001.
per camas, the ether 2,0001. per smarm; e f thh 12,000'.,
st thaEresst of family and ear Margo. Mere maw to
s his me sues. Out of Me awn, Yew man did
oak sogyees this pars sentanted Mee Maras
per serem. (Rear, bear.) Tie eldest ef Mobil bare
the bass wee set emiyte as** the gramma teary
es tie Poor Law BM, by a grad rats os an the mime
Ireland to be mad to the east of say periods ma.
bi/ aim es he emieri Me le pay the debts of any oaks,
se web as to give rilefr_ Me moo (Rear, hear.) To ea
pareprition be meet dada, .03Yeeted., The landlords
of Ireland did sat In the least object to pay their
jut roma= 4C aweeseary taxation; writ that
taxation was to be, whether m Meow or otherwise,

It was the badness of the EMMONS' Si NT-
taiply it appeared to Wm very ,a ust-
eoaatitsitional, that ill, severnassnA Meld seek the
on the &lea of any putiindsr et/ion, at a meeting pr-
om whether =embers of parliament or otherwise, lie Hit out
of loom (Hear, .ar.) The noble end esseleded by
moving that the bill be read a siesesid time that day Ain
111011' ha. _ _

---- ---
The Archbishop of DUBLIN had foramen and fore-
told that with a poor law which afforded relief
to the able-bodied in Ireland there would he, on
the occurrence of the first great scarcity, a Glamour which
could not be resisted, for out-door relief. He had been told
that this clamour would be futile ; that the workhouse test
would be insisted upon. Mr. Nichols had declared to him
his r i•tiect conviction that it world be utterly fatal to give
oat-door relief; but what he had foreseen came to pass ; with
the first great *comity tune the cry for out-door relief—a
cry which he had resisted to the weiost of his power, regard-
less of all the insinaat one, all the detinnebtious of hard-
heartedness towards the poor, which, epos all such occasions,
persons acting as he had telt it to be his duty to act, were
constantly exposed to. (Hear, hear.) Yet he could safely
say that no ma was less fairly open to the imputation of in-
difference to the sufferings of the people than he was. (Herr,
hoar.) There was no one who had more opportunities than
he of witnessing the sufferings, not only on the part of the
humbler climes, bet en the part of those whose condition
seemed above the probable reach of actual destitution. And
great their sufferings were—greater mullion the public con-
ceived. (Hear, hear.) Among the must distressed, the
clergy saffered bitterly. There were many clergymen
whom he had known exposed to the absolute want of toed.
There were BOOS of clergymen whom he bad known with-
drawn 'lrma college for want of funds to continue them
there, and who had enlisted, some of them se common
soldiers, and had gone, some of them, to break stones on the
roods, as the only mounts easiest starvation. (Hear, hear.)
All these parties attributed timer destitution to the operation
of the poor law—to the crushing pressure of tte rates.
Unless some more decided security were Riven for the stop-
ping of what he mirth call the eating canker of 'Tetrad,
whatever eonfidenee he might feel is the good intentions of
the governmeat, or however deep might he mousse( the ex-
treme distr.'s which prevailed in Ireland, he could not sup-
port the meagre.

Lord BRAIIIION could not agree with the noble
lord who had moved the amendment in la) ing the
whole blame of their pr sent position on the government.
Some portal of that blame mast in justice be borne by Irish
members. Considering the opinion which had been ex-
pressed by their lordshipi' committee, and the views enun-
ciated out of doors, he thought the Prime Minister had
taken • fair and proper course in calling Irish members to
mother, in order to consult them. It had been admitted on
all hands that unless there were a grant of money the people
must starve; and the choice of that something was the only
question remaining for decision. He blamed Irish
members for acting uncandady and ungenerously; he
blamed the 4overnuent for want of resolution. The
&tied of this measure, like that of every poor law,
was to relieve those who were totally incapable of
supporting themselves ; and he felt build to say that he
feared it would fail to effect that object. A malarial rate
of 6d. in the pound would increase the number of those who
could not obtain • sustenance by their own eurtione, and at
the same time diminish the resources of those who would be
called upon to p iy. A national rate Involved the destruction
of local interest la economy. It was of the essence of eco-
nomy of administration that the levying of rates should not
extend over the whole community. The measure was also
opposed to the principle that those who levied rates ought to
be the representatives of those who paid them. Thus were
sacrificed at the same time economy of administration, and
one of the chief inducements to pay willingly. (Hear, hear. )
Such would be the at as regarded the paying districts.
But it should be remembered tba-. there were some parts of
Ireland, the inhabitants of which would have actually an
interest in the increase of the amount of pauperism,
because in proportion as pauperism Increased would
money be the more likely to flow in from less
distressed districts. Coder such circamstanees it was
imposaible to fix any limit to the ex•ension of pauperism.
A great portion of the rate would WI upon lessors. Here
he could not help remarking that the measure was in
direct opposition to that principle of individual responsi-
bility which had been laid down as the basis of lezislation on
such subjects. (Hear, hear.) Individual responsibility. was
an admirable thing, but this measure tended to diminish
and to destroy it. As regarded the capitalist, it was clear
that he would be reluctant to purchase an estate for which
he would be liable to pay a rate out of his own district, and
Ire amount of which would he regulated by the amount
which he expended on improvements. (Hear, hear.) An-
other objection which be felt to the measure was, that it
actually led to the Idea of a separation between the two
countries. He did not imagine that the present
state of Ireland would be her permanent state, al-
though a rate in aid would toad to prolong itsdura-
tion. He believed that Ireland was now in • transition
state. Every day be perceived that she was progressing
towards another state of things. An ceded she would un-
doubtedly have to go through; but he felt assured that she
was on her way to a better state of things, and the very evils
complained of were necessary to the change. Regard-
ing it solely on its own merits, he could not give
a vote wdsh would in effect be a vote in favour
of a system of national ruing. The question was no
longer we to the people being kept from starving; it was
only as to the species of ',corky to be given for the advances
made ' • and, disapproving of that proposed, he should strenu-
ously oppose the bill.
The Ben of 1108811 said the practical objections to the
working of the rate in aid lad been very ably stated ; he
concurred is thus objections ; but with him the strongest
argument against the measure was the principle it involved.
That principle was wholly unprecedented; every attempt
to produce a prudent bad entirely broken down; the bill pro-
=dad with property in Ireland on principles totally
hem those which were regarded in England. The
asserary oast of this must bete depreciate the vales of
property, and to render the employment of labour still more
precarious. (Hear, hear.) He item no good reason why
Ireland should not be taxed precisely in the same way se
Zeeland or Scotland—why • man having 1601. a-year in
Ireland should not pay the looms tax and as for the m-
ussed tans and sumptuary tales, he though they had been
rather a but& to this country than otherwise. He re-
potted that • proposal made some years ago for premeds,
emigration from Ireland, had not bees earrisd eat.
It was a great 'mistake to suppose that :the
misery of Connaught was owin to the estates being en-
ounbersed. In Mayo, where Sir it. Farman, anunencum-
bered proprietor, had • large estate, there was as much
MM any other heweverdeeply encumbered. (Hear.)
Cyr apiabs, she first step to by taken was to improve the
admlailamlen of the present poor law. The commis-
11111111N1 bed Idled la their duty fn not giving timely
advice to the boards of guardians, but leaving them very
much to pursue their own course with re.ard to out-door
relief. Supposing that system of relief to be mugged in as
perfect • lumen as parity's' it was inevitable that its adop-
tion would rapidly Ucressethe amount et claimants on the
rates; it consequently ought not to be resorted to without 11
=an. He would propose that five or six able men
divide the mousy into districts, end see that each
mdemawasd a proper course in the relief of the poor.
Next mast get rid of out-door relief as early as possible.
This t be very difilcult ; but in many onions the in-door
amommodatioa might be increased at a light expense. Then,
it was most desirable to separate the administration of the
Irish poor law as much as possible from the Irish executive
(gear, hear.) Having improved the administration of the
pose law, let them then apply the same principles cf taxa-
ilren 10 Ireland es to this country, and treat her,
In fact, as an English county. (Hear, hear.)
He had no faith is the project for the plantation, as it had
been sada dfiesuaght. (Hear.) No doubt at was de-
dyable le IMMO the sole of land ; but it was much more
impeded le Om hailities for emigration. (Hear.) If a
division 116 w labia ea this bill, he should certaisly support
massineeme.
The Many* of CLANRICARDE said that many of the
aidectioas whisk had been urged against the measure ap-
rutto erimi eat of a total rnoneeptioa of its character.
not istegild as • permanent but a temporary Ines-
suro—as an expedient% meet a great and pressing emergency.
With reference to the speech of the noble earl who had
spoken before him, be thought there could be no difficulty
in admittlag to him that it was the feeling of the Belli*
peeps and the Intention of parliament that Irish P
generally must make a great effort towards relievincra
mitigating the general distress of Ireland. Ile (the
Marquis of Clanricarde) had moved for certain
returns, and they had been recently laid upon
their lordships' table, which showed the highest,
the lowest, and the average amounts of poor rate
laded en the various Irish unions. These returns
same down to the month of September, 1848. The
gunge rate aimed on any union did note:seed 4e. a2be7ll
pence—the Wield did not exceed Is. and a traction in the
peaall.bagoit" and expressions of dissent from the mo-
des ) Wes it possible that a district comprisiss
hem Orem fur hundred thousand souls could be converted
into • mica of starving paupers by any poor rate of this
descriptios ? He would now proceed to mention
the highest actual rating that had been made, as
it appeared on the face of these returns; and it seemed that
in March, 1848, it had !sicked so high a point as 11" 6d. in
the pound (Cries of Hear," and , ' Ob.") Noble lords
would be Pleased to revolted that he had already stated his
returns came down only to the month of September.
He defied noble lords to show how the ruin and misery of the
small farmers and all others connected with the occu-
pation of the land and its cultivation could have been less,
when they had naturally anticipated that the crops of the
disastrous ears they had passed through is 1847 and 1848
would be of the game average yield as usual. Bat it wee the
duty of prliament to endeavour to apply some large rues.
did mmsre to this ezirdiag Metres' ; and it was with a view
to mitigate its premed pressare that her Majesty's govern-
ment Ed felt themselves sempelled to bring forward the
presenitalseinicaz end y mann ; end when they had unused
their lead papered this usesure—hadee such
dram_ was that goeseumnat bed brought deurerd a
properidea, nee peekising es be psuaded es sated ere pee
mutat prkle te
_aosomplisk by immediate
.ILII ea Jele but ePtaeshb object (Chews) It
by herfat plallanhat that, whilst this die.
true mast be mu only equitable earl posperthst
Irish property be calledo6 to seeldhitte
its fair guts to tba relief of these Imemaillately
connected with It, heirs any *ether *mod fee
such objects medal be
vis made en the already
taxed bat *di*** pel genntry for the
relief of Id& Adieu - Theyd this
had, thdeare, andeawaseg,
by the sasseeee new meleaseemloi **eh ism/Odle adop-
tion, to nuke ea* ia blind as add aimed
bate its fair to miEptlan of Irbh
He (Lord ) was a lidded Mead to amigos.
time, as one of the usesune beet adulated he the mead
Inland ; tad he had hadplrtlMfaat eauelusa is *s Wow

el essdneting the esellgration of Irish labourers—in adininis-
Uring property wherein he was personally interested. He
was of opinion that money could not be better spent than
on a lugs sedans of Irish emigration, judiciously, cautiously,
and earthilly conducted. LIZ the first four months of 1847
she total number of emigrants who had quitted these island'
for various destinations was 90,742, end epithelia emigrants the
great majority wens Irish. In 1848, the number weseoinewhat
less :it we, deed, only 74,829. In 1849, first four months,
it bad increased to 104,710. It must be apparent to noble
lords, from these figures, that there had been no discourage-
ment, no obstacle, to the course of Irish emigration. (Hear.)
In conclusion, he trusted that the house would gin to the
measure their prompt sweat.
E rl FITZ WILLIAM would ask Heists measure, new in.
troduced as a temporary but indispensable measure of present
relief, was really calculated to produce the effects anticipated
from it, why had it not been brought in in October last ?
Her Majesty's government not having given their lordships
an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon this mea-
sure till, u his noble friend the Postmaster-General in-
*rated them, within a fortnight of the period when the
lives of thousands of the people of Ireland were placed in
jeopardy, he was sorry to be obliged to come to the conclu-
sion that they had not performed their duty to that
hours as they ought to have done. (Hear, hear.) He
would not, however, be deterred by any threat of
that kind from doing what he believed to be
bit duty to the people of Ireland by voting for the
amendment of his noble friend who moved the postponement
ca the measure. Ho entirely agreed with those who did not
think the measure eitherjost or adequate. The sum which
it +u estimated would be rei ed under the bill was about

326,0001. But this estimate was made upon fallacious data,
for it was formed upon the valuation which existed previous
to the failure of the last three years. (Hoer.) Bet did say
one really believe that the Immense mw of persons who
bad to be relieved in Ireland could be relieved under
500,0001. at least ? The funds proposed to be raised under
the bill, even if realised—which he did not think would
be the case—would not be adequate to meet the emergency.
(Hear, hear) But a
greater objection than the inadequacy
of the measure was its injustice. He had been anxious, he
had been curious, to find any persons in this country who
approved of it. H. could nut find one. Hs doubted very
much whether any of his noble friends who proposed it
would say that it was a just an,usurs. His noble friend who
had just sat down bad said everything with regard to it, ex-
cept that it was just. Why was it unjust? There were
stunt 2,600 eleetor.d divisions in Ireland. Thew electoral
divisions had done everything they could to maintain the
paupers which they Genuine& Having performed this
duty, on what principle of justice should the electoral divi-
'ion of Antrim or Wexford be taxed over again to supply
the deficiency of Galway or M.yo ? (Hear, hear.) Tney
might with as much justice call upon the parishes of Kent
or Northumberland to supply the deficieeey. The taxa-
tion .of Ireland was more than she could bear, and

she broke down nadir it as a natural censeqnence.
Thee had no right, then, te plead the low taxation of Ireland in
justification of this measure, and yet it was the only justifi-
cation alleged. (Hear, hear.) On whet plea could they tax
the electoral divisions of Antrim or Wexford, and not tax
the par.sties of England ? Did they mean to repeal the
union ? (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Da they mean to
say that Ireland wax a nation? ("Hear, hear.) He
b,iieved that if the House of Commons had the
_

whole case put before them fairly and openly in the
first instance, they would have voted a much larger sum
than the 60,0001. which the government bad biked of them
as easily us they had voted the smaller sum. (Hear.) He
hat said that this measure was inadequate and unjust, but the
greatest objection that he bad against it wee, that it had
nothing about it of what he should call an executory principle.
One of the great arts of the science of legislation, was to make
laws execute themselves—that is to say, that they should be
framed is such a manner that the different parts should
ensure the execution one of another. Now this bill con-
tained no execute ay ;wimple, because it did not invest any
party with either as later, st cr with the power to see that it
was properly executed. The unless of Ulster which were to
be taxed fur the d fluency of Connaught had no control
whatever over the adminitoration of the funds—the unions
- - .

1.3-1 Antrim or Wexford would have
.no means whatever of

checking the extravagance or diminishing time pauperism
of Clare or Racconnion. For this reason he would
prefer to see the income tax imposed in Ireland.
But then he should propose that the distress in Ireland
should be relieved out of the proceeds of the intone tax,
and the surplus should be paid into the imperial exchequer,
which would hold out • strong inducement to the Wiest-
cellor of the Exchequer to see that the funds for the relict
of the poor were economioally administered. He did
not believe that thousands of the people of Ireland would
be left to die by the government even if this bill did not
pass; and, under these circumstances, he should vote for
the amendment of the noble earl. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of St. GERMANS saw no alternative in
the present position of affairs in Ireland than to per
the present bill. If he were asked why he supported
the measure when he was tell that the amount levied
by the rate in aid would fall short of the sum required
to meet the exigencies of Ireland, he could only ally that he
did so because the
_present measure implied a contract be-
tween the people of Ireland and the parliament of England
that if the Irish would make en effort to contribute their
quota, the imperial parliament would step forward and sup-
ply the remainder of what was necessary to relieve the neves-
skim of that coney ; and ih rakes, notwithstanding all his
objections to the principle of the bill, be could not resolve to
encounter the reepnaibility of voting against it.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that the peculiarity of the
present debate was,where to look for the supporters of the
government bill. His noble friend (the Earl of Carlisle)
could not be classed as one, for his whole speech was con-
demnatory of the measure. But this was net all. Both
committees had decided against the bill. Their lordships'
committee had reported an opinion condemnatory of it by a
majority of 14 to 6. Nor was there an individual member
of their lordships' committee, otherwise than officio],
who had not voted against the principle. The com-
mittee of the House of Commons also condemned the
principle of the bill, with one exception. He would not
truth's their lordships with reading the report of the com-
mittee, but he would challenge the government to produce
one iota of evidence in its favour in the whole of the blue
book. Mr. Twisleton also had preferred resigning his office
to carrying out the rate in aid, an act which did him the
greatest honour. AU the petitions that had been pre-
sented on the subject were loud in their complaints against
the rate in aid; and out of 105 Irish representatives, 80
had voted against the bill—and would it be pretended after
such a manifestation of Irish sentiment that justice was don
to Ireland by pasting the Dill ? It had been argued as a rea-
son for agreeing to the measure that 100,0001. had bean
already advanced out of the imperial treasury on the security
of the rate in aid. He for his owe part repudiated a debt
incurred on such security, for he believed that the rata
in aid would be as unproductive as it was unjust, and
it was as unjust as it was impolitic. He called
on their lordships, therefore, to dismiss the subject of the
100,0001. advance from their minds, for that would never be
got back by means of a rate in aiJ. Let there be some-
thing large, something noble proposed for the amelioration
of the condition of Ireland, and then those economists who
stumbled over a grant of 50,0001. would not hesitate to give
millions to extricate Ireland from her present difficulty. He
was not one of these who obji cted to make a sacrifice, but
let it be effectual, let it strike at the root of pauperism in Ire-
land; but as for an advance, or a loan, or a rate in aid for
the miserable purpose of keeping paupers alive,
he would give has assent to no such measure.
Such a measure as this would n be permitted in Eng-
land. The effect merely of the announcement of the rate-
in-aid had already been to put a practical end to tenant right
in the path of Inland. They must introduce an Encumbered
Estates Bill, bet unless this rendered Ireland an eligible
habitation, they would find no customers for the disencum-
bered estates.
Lord AUDLEY said that having heard no proposi-
tion of a more practical nature for the relief of the
distresses of Ireland, he should support the bill. This
measure should not be regarded by itself, but in connexion
with others which were, be trusted, to follow.
The Earl of WICKLOW could not admit that there had
been any disposition on the part of Irish landlords to shift
burdens from their own shoulders. Every Irish landlord in that
hones who had spoken on the subject had expressed a readiness
to boar his share of taxation,- the objection was to the pro-
peed mode of levying it. The measure had, in fact, been
condemned by the government. The noble marquis (the'
President of the Council) had declared that no consideration
could induce him to propose such a measure, bat for the p.-
eulier circumstances of the can. Each of her Majeat
ministers had condemned the measure, end stated that
would not support it without giving security against ors
extension of its principle ; and yet it had now been admitted
by all in debate that, If the measure were poised, it would
be impossible to prevent the extension of the principle. If the
government would propose a substitute for this measure I.
the House of Commons It would, he doubted not, be
without difficulty. Coisidetiog the large number oirdst
members who had opposed the measure he was surprised I
that they should proceed with it.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he felt bpund to
explain distinctly the grounds which had induced the
government to proceed with this measure, and what they
did, and what they did not, expect to result from it. If he
thought that by voting for this measure he would be affirm-
ing the principle of a rate in aid as a permanent mode of
providing relief, nothing could induce him to take that course.
But it was one thing to condemn the permanent adoption
of a principle, and another thing to vote for it as a temporary
expedient. What were the circumstances ender which the
measure had been proposed ? At the commencement of the
session it was proposed to the cher house to provide by •
grant for the relief of the extreme destitution which then
revelled in the watt mad the south west of Ireland.
The argument most urged by those who had opposed
such grants was that there appeared to be no disposition on
the part of Ireland itself to make any contribution towels!s
the object. Connected as he was with Ireland by the pee-
session of property in that country,
he thought that Ireland,
not being taxed equally with Great Britain, the inequality
constituted a reason why a special ffort should be made by
bar to relieve the prevalent distress. (Hear, hear.)
A noble lord (Lord Beaumont) hod spoken of Ire-
land as in the sot of puling through a Iranian
state, sod had observed that there were certain necessary
evils connected with such a state. He (the Marquis of
Laudowne) would remind the noble lord that • part of the
transition was the transition from life to death—(hoar)—
and that while they bowed to the decrees of Prnideaes, at
was their duty, as a Christian legislature, to endeavour to
mitigate the sufferings of their fellow-subjects, and, if pos-
sible, to prevent the destruction of masses of the population.
(Hear.) It was because her Majesty's government had ob-
served is the other house an indisposition to moist Ireland
eaten some effort wan made by Ireland herself, that they
had introduced this imannt, notwithstanding all the objec-
tions to which it was liable. A noble friend of his asked why