The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-23 00:00:00

Deal be decided. He did not succeed ; and
ARP
aware was afterwards taken up by. succeed-
governments. He (Lord John Rumen) Introduced
qty ls on that subject--seyeral others haying the same
introduced by the right hon. beronet the
bee° h ha • r
member for Tamworth, an t e question ling test been
Wen up in 1824 or 1825, it was not until the y
env ear 1846 that
meow, passed on the subject ; and it was not until
weenies the last month or two that the measure so paned had
been brought into operation. (Hear, hear.) If, then, there
had been so much difficulty with regard to • question which
did net excite religious prejudices. sues it not allowable for
the gommment to wait for some years before they introduced
e p eminent bill on so difficult • pion ion as that of nttior.al
education. (Hear.) He thought Vast by the introduction
of this vote in the present ) ear, and the improvement of the
ratcm hitherto acted upon, had tended tu bring out and to
elicit many useful opinions on this subject. It had above all
shown thin the disposition of this limos was favourable to
the principle of ednuition being aided by the state. ( Hear.)
Melly of those who would tote with the hon. member fur Fins-
bury in femme of a resolution which would put an end to any
grant for the present yeer, were :API favourable L
ouseg
education by the state ; and the m ijority of the h, he
trusted, would show that they were nut only in favour of
the pn yet vote, but else in favour of state educatiou. Ile
teeteent likewise that many intricate points had been da-
red of by the disposition evinced by the emitter part of the
members who had spoken to lave the question decided
one way or the other. He thought the proposition of
the hoe. a• sl teeniest member for bath ( Mr. Roebuck) that
there should be a system of at. eu'..tr education, wax so en-
tiron. entsounistic to the opinions of the present bowie, as he
believed it wool 1 be to any succeeding Douse of Commons,
that its sneciss was impossible. (Hear, hear,) Ile Wan of
opinion that any future 'mohair, such as the hoe. and
learned gentleman imagined, who came down to exceed the
present gori =mem m liberality, might so, but would not
be likely to have a very lorg tenure of office if he proposed
that education should be without religious instruction, and
that seheu.s entirely secular should be established by the
state. (Hear, heir.) With regard to other matters there bad
really men so much support riven to the proposition of the
gw,rnment—so much handsome and generous support oy
bees. et who had spoken tomight (Sir W.
James, ; tie noble 1, MI the member for Liver-
pool ( Lord Sandon) ; by the noble lord the
member fair Hertford ( Lord Sinhon), and by man' other
boo. nimbus that he (Lord J. Roved) would cone.wle by
=attain; them and the house for the reception which the
propesiti,a intended to raise the character of the people of
this countre had met, and with that support t °did not think
the pa-imminent wou'd be disappointed in the expectations
they entertained. (Cheers.)
Colonel bill IHORP next aildrened tbe house, mid (Ic-
eland the as he on not eupport the amendment of the
hen. member for Fin bury, anti as he eoull not conscien-
tiowly stection the praniteition of her Majesty's goverumenr,
mein! the ulterior object they had in view, as distinctly
declared by the noble Iced who had ju.t sat clown, he should
best discharge his duty to the country by retiring from the
house, and declining to vote on the present occasion.
(" Hear, bee..." and a laugh.)
Sir H. PEEL—Although l feel it to be wholly unneces-
wry to add anything to the arguments by which Coe motion
of the rode lord at the heal of the goveromt nt has been
supported, yet I should be unwilling to permit the house to
proceed to • division without shortly stating the grounds on
which my concurrence will be given to the 111.3t10U of the
neble lord. (Hear, heir.) Considering the position which,
for five years, I held in the route Is of the crown ; consider-
ing the connexion I had with tine appropriation of the educa-
tion vote during that period, as a member of the Committee
of Council on Education; considering the oppoioon which
the present government has had to el:mounter in pro-
posing a measure, the main outlines and principles of
which I cordially approve; I think it is incumbent upon
me not to shriek from taking my full share of
any unpopularity which may attech to this course of pro-
ceeding. (Item, hear.) I am perfectly willing to admit
that there are circumstances connected with that measnee
which I think are deserving of mature eon,ideratiou. In
1839, I fuily shared in the objections which were urged to
proceeding by a single cote of this house in reference to a
measure of such importance as that of devising even an im-
perfect scheme of geccral education. I still think that the
same objection exists. I think there will be meat advardage
in 'dieting to the ordinary course, wad in submitting to the
deliberation of both houses the regulations under which the
education of the people was intended to be conducted, I
think, Nether, that there is an evil in excluding the house
of Lords from an opportunity of full consideration of this
subject, by leaving to them no alternative but a complete
acquiescence in or a peremptory rejection of the =ensure.
But, sir, with my view of the importance of niskir.g some
prefaces in mitigation of the monstrous evils which have
tended to the neglect of public instruction, and seeing the
probable consequences of insisting on the opinion which I
gave in 1839 in refusing my :latent to any measure connected
with education, unless it had the legislative sanction of both
houses of parliament, in the shape of an act of parliament.
I will not now incur the risk of further delay by insisting on
the objections which I urged at that period. I feel,sir, that
1 cannot with propriety now insist on these objections, for
during tho six years that have elapsed since that time
there has not oily been acquiescence on my part, hut
on the part of this house, in giving to the privy
council the exercise of those powers. (Hear, hear.) In
1842, when the late government assumed power, the vote
given to the Privy Council did not exceed 30.0001. ; anal it
was by our advice that it was iaereasei to 75,0031., and after-
wards to 100,0001. We, being charged with the re-pon Dai-
nties of government, and having the support of • great ma-
jority, did not think it necessary—parliament having ac-
quiesced in 1840 and in 1811, after the debates of 1839, and
after the majority declared by the House of Lords in favour
of proceeding by a bill—seeing that parliament thought an
arrangemeit had bean made between the government and
the chief authorities of the church, and that in 1810
and ISII there was no disposition to renew the &s-
-cessions of 1339, we did not think it necessary to adopt
another course, and I say, considering those things, and
the increase of the rare by the ndvico of the crown
to parliament from 30,0001. to 100,0001. a-year, without re-
quiring any alteration in the channel is wh Ai it was to he
appropriated, I should be pursuing an unworthy course if I
now attempted to throw an impediment in the way of an
imperfect application of a remedy of the evils of which we
all complain. But has nothing occurred since 1842 ? Have
we not made the attempt to proceed by bill with reference
to education ? and what was the result ? When the late
Secretary of State for the Homo Department, from a deep
sense of public duty, exposed himself to the obloquy with
which he was mailed in attempting to introduce •
measure respecting the education of factory children,
he thought he should mitigate opposition if he
proceeded by public enactment; and we did not
then proceed by vote--we made the attempt to introduce
some further facilities with regard to education by legiela-
tire enactment ; but we met with no greater encouragement
with respect to the bill than the noble lord has met with
now; and my right hon. friend, very much to my regret,
was obliged to abandon that attempt to unite all parties in
devising some scheme by which, without the violation of
conscience, greater facilities for education might be pro-
vided. (Hear, hear.) Now then, in 1847, seeing the
failure of the attempt to proceed by legislation—seeing the
evidence which exists, that for the thousands
that swarm in the course of every week, there
is son sufficient provision for their education, either
intellectual or religious, I am ready to consent to
consent t r any measure which, without violating the con-
scientious scruples of any cla-a of christians, afford+ some
remedy for this monstrous defect. (Hear, hear.) In the
course of this debate there has been much and most able
argument with reference to the authority and duty of the
state to interfere with respect to the education of the people,
and in this house there has been but a faint denial of that
duty. And I should apprehend on the part of the great
body of her Majesty's subjects who dissent from the doc-
trines of the church of England there is no disposition to
deny the importance of education or to deny the right or
duty of the state to promote that education by evert.
means in its power. (Hear, hear.) I apprehend the chief
objection of the nonmonfonning body to this proceeding on
the part of the government, is not so much a denial of the
right of the state to promote education, as a doubt whether
or not the measure proposed is really calculated to promote
that end. (liver, hear.) The non-conforming holy, if they
are consistent with their former declarations on this subject,
can only object to this measure on the ground that the volun-
tary system is better calculated to promote education than
any interference on the part of the state, and if I could believe
that non-interference oat the parlor the state was calculated
to facilitate education more than such interference, I should
at once admit that in this country, with such a difference of
Itinistoantoon "
might yes, Itbjweeotiulpdrellailloi;:r twhatwiatsu e
avoid evehrin.tehrt-
ferenee ; but I think the evidence is conclusive that the
voluntary principle has failed. (Hear, hear.) I believe, if
we could know the real extent of this evil—if we could have
presented to us a full amount of all the crime that has been
generated by ignorance—if we could know what has really
taken place within the last fifty years—if we could know
how much the evil example of the 'parent has introduced
infection into the character and disposition of the
child—if we could know how much of violence
and of rapine, how much of crime against both
life and property has been caused by the neglect of educa-
tion—if we could know how many immortal souls have
during that period been ushered into the presence of their
creator and their judge, ignorant of the great truths sad
principles of Christianity, I think, sir, if we could show all
this, we should be disposed to shudder at our own neglect,
and to endeavour without delay to remedy the evils of the
past. (Loud cheers.) Sir, Ito to the volumes of evidence
which have been presented within the last few years—and I
hold in my hand one of those volumes—tho report of the
comrainioners who were appointed to inquire ii do the state and
condition of children employed in severeldistricts. This single
report refers to the condition of the children in north
Someraetshire, the west riding of Yorkshire, Cheshire, Der-
byshire, and North and South Wales. The evidence has
been collected and the opinions are expressed by men of the
highest integrity and the greatest talent, and they uniformly
came to the same conclusion, that there is complete degrada-
tion in many parts of this country on account of the neglect
of education. 'Hear, hear.) I believe we are little aware
of the extent to which that neglect prevails. We see returns
of the number of children educated, but we hardly inquire
what is the real state of the education of these children.
We see that here is a population containing some 400.000
or 500,000 children, and that 300,000 of them are educated
and 200,000 are without any education whatever—and we
are shocked at the disproportion—but if we were really ac-
quainted with the nature of the education which has been
given to the 300,000, our reflections would be still more
bitter. (Hear, hear). I have not come to a conclusion on
this subject without having maturely considered the weight
of evidence. I know that a reference to documents of this
kind is not very palatable, but it is of much more import-
ance than mere speculative argument. (Hear, hear.) Now,
I will take • district of great importance—the district of '

Oldham—and I look to the evidence of a gentleman
who is the curate of St. James's, in the parish of
Oldham ; and, Sir, this is the account which he glees of
the state of the educated dunes in that famish, the provision
made for education, and the neture of the education they
receive. lam now considering the question, which is the
akin one, whether it be safe to trust to the voluntary prin-
ciple for the education of the poor, and whether or nut we
can safely assent to the doctrine that the state ought not to
interfere. (Hear, hear.) This gentleman says: "There is
in this district no public day-school whatever. I have made
several attempts to establish one, but in vain. I hose had
assietanre from the national society and the parli ..mentary
grant to establish a public dey-school, and I have had a '
building erected, but an attendance of scholars cannot be got
so set° pay a master, and it is now our years since all hope of
success has been given up. One of the roams has been
lately let to a person to keep a school on his own responsi-
bility, but three masters have attempted it without senoras -
the hut glee up last week, saying, "he could get plenty of
scholars, hut no pay." Now, ols.erve, that district, and it is
not a bad specimen, Iwo no public day-school whatever. It
is teas there are Sunday schools—the persons emeluyed in
aide; and collieries have lees objection te their children
attending the Smiley schools, loomed it aloce not interfere
with their working during the week ; and, therefore, they
are returned as clurated children. (Hear, hear.) But
this is his statement of the attendance at the Sunday
sellout. Ile says, "Asa means of religious instruction, it as
obvious that schools composed as these are must be imper-
fect in the coon use; as secular schools they do harm by low-
ering the people's estimation of the value of secular instruce
don, and making them contented with less than they ought
to have." Therefore, you have co day• schools ; you have
none of the habits which a day-school would bateau; and Oct
these are among the clue end returns (hear, hear). and I
think the clergymen of whom I speak may well draw the
concise ion, th at attendance.on Sunday schools alone is not
only en unpile feet mode of education, but that it does
more harm than go ; toot seculer instruction there is worse
than usdees, and religious education is almost as imperfect.
The evidence of the loss themselves is most imeortaut.
Here is a boy examined fifteen years of age: he 'lasi he has
been at a Sunday school five or six years, and has only
learnt to reed his letter. Weil, then, there's enotter bey,
who states that he went to a day school—he does not know
how long—can't read or write ; he goes te a Sunday school
sometimes, and sometimes to a 'methodist chapel. Now,
within the course of a few months there have been attempts
made to induce masters to take charge of that school, and
they have left their employment ; the parents have been
unwilling to send their children, or at least to pay for them ;
and is not that a proof that the voluntary principle cannot
be relied upon to ensure the attendance of a competent
schoolmaster? (Hear, heir.) And what is now proposed ?
To elevate the condition of the schoolmaster—to exalt his
condition in society—and to give him encouratefincnt by the
aid of the revernment. ( Hear, hear.) As to the patronage
to be gained by the government, the objection is too futile to
he urged in this house-1 bear, hear)—but I consider the
most important part of these minutes of council is, their ten-
dency to raise" the character of the schoolmaster. (Hear.)
Why any one who has net .3 on the committee of the Privy
Council must know that as soon as a schoolmaster 'nu be-
come competent to his duties, es menus he has dietinguished
himself by his ability anal acquirements, the tenure of his
office becomes precarious. .ranptitions aro held out by
merchante and manufacturers to any one of them who has
acquired a knowledge of arithmetic, end has distinguished
himself by his cepabiiities anal integrity, and he is temoted
by the prospect of double salary and a lees irksome task to
undertake other duties. How can you expect otherwise
of them, seeing that their office is not respected,
and holds out no pro:lmA of permanent provision ?
How can you expect that you can retain the ser-
vices of good schoolmasters, unless you teach them
that their office is honourable, end hold out • pros-
pect that when they are incapacitated from perform-
ing its duties they will obtain some provision for re-
tirement. That part, therefore, of the plan which is in-
tended to improve the condition of the schoolmaster has my
most cordial concurrence. I deeply regret that this minute
is not approsed by the nonconformists. I entertain for toot
body a great respect, and I have *hewn, in the instance of
the Dissenter' Chapels Bill, that I was not unwilling to incur
obloquy cud risk in order to do justice to the daunting
body ; and, attache l as I am to the established church, and
desirous as I am of the pre-eminence of that
church, I should be sorry to gain for her any latent
or increased advantages as regards education, if thereby in-
justice was done to the dissenters. It is impossible to forget
the services which the dissenters have rendered to the cause
of education. When the established church was indifferent
an example of real in that respect was set her by the non-
conformists, and if I thought that their objections to this
minute were just in themselves, deeply as I am impressed
with the neceasity for this remedy being applied to the exist-
ing state of things, though I might give my support to this
proposition, it would be but a reluctant one, and the satis-
faction I should feel in my acquiesence in it
would be much modified. But having deeply con-
sidered those objections I cannot think that they are founded
in justice. The principle on which this aid is granted is •
fair one. The minute adopts the volueta-y. principle. That
principle is nut suspended, but is only set in force through
the intervention of the minute. A voluntary subscription
for the support of the schoolmaster* is essential before a vote
of money is granted to aid in iucreesing their salaries. It
in open to the dissenters to take advantage of this as well as
the established church, and yet they complain of partiality.
That has been the conduct of the established church for the
lest ten years. Impressed with the magnitude of the eviLead
the necessity for a remedy, she hes waived allobjeetions. Noe is
she seeking to obtain any indirect advantage by means of
this vote. But if the church is more zealous, and if she
contributes more, on what principle con you withhold aid
front her in proportion to these contributions? It is said ,
that the established church w ill receive eighteen.twentieths
of the vote. Is it not by her superiority in point of num-
Isers,—and, if so, is it not just that it should be so • and if
she exhibits superipr coal and liberalite, does not that give
her a claim to increased assistance ? Try it by what
principle you wiil, you no objection against this,
or complain of any supisosad advantage obtained by the
established church. II do not deny that the
established church is powerful, and I rejoice that she
is so. I think that power is increasing ; end why ? It
is my firm belief that she has obtained on increasing hold on
the affections of the people of this countey, increasing be-
cause she has awakened to a sense of the magnitude of her
duties. (Hear, hear.) It is my firm belief that the church
has obtained an increased hold on the respect and veneration
of the people by her willingness to submit to timely and
salutary reforms. She has consented to a reduction in the
emoluments of her higher orders, a ol devoted them to the
increase of accommodation and the advantage other inferior
members; and by this conduct she has greatly added to her
power. I think this power la is been legitimately
ruined. It is not by means of government grants that
her influence has 'been lumped. That is a mis-
take. She would hove been as powerful without them.
What is the venom of this increwo of power in the church ?
Why, it is the power which is derived from educating the
poople. Ido not say it invidiously as regards the dissenters,
to cause I believe they are actuated by the same principle,
and that all persuasions attend to this iniportent point ; but
the influence of the church has been anon and by her conduct
in this respect ; it will continue to be so, and it you give go-
vernment aid to the church, her legitimate influence will not
be diminished, and I rejoice that it will be so. The princi-
ple of this grant is one of perfect equlity. It is on this
ground that I support this proposal, and I;nd myself unable
to vote for the motion of the hen. member far Finsbury. We
have had abundant time for debate. the facts are
well-known, If we sift the evidence we possess, no further
inquiry is necessary to convince us that our constitutions
are not capacious cnoueh as they now exist to provide edu-
cation for the countless millions engaged in the operations
of industry. A question of importance wine in this discus-
sion which does not relate either to church or to what are
usually called dissenters—l mean as regards tie Roman ca-
tholes. I am of opinion that no system of general educates's,
even in England, could be comp.ete, which excluded the
Raman catholics. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL, as we beeieve, made some observa-
tion.
Sir R. PEEL: The noble lord ear there is no alteration
of the principle of the minute of 18:19. In this respect it is
different. (Hear, hear.) You are about racticaaly to make
this difference in the principle—you are about te admit to a
particieation in the advantages of this vote a portion of the
di ecnting community which hes hitherto been excluded.
Hitherto the Wesleyans have not practically participated in
the vote. They were not in connexion with the National
School Society or the British and Foreign School Society,
and any society not in connexion with those societiee, was
excluded, and the Wesleyanreceived no pecuniary advan-
tage from the vote. Yon are now about to alter tb it p
ciple in that respect ; yen have assured the Weskyans that
Ike rule is not applicable to them—that their schoils are
entitled to, and that their authorities will be consulted with
regard to inspection. Surely, so far es the Roman catho-
Ike are concerned there should be no materiel difference.
In point of feeling as well as of morals you should
extend the sphere of your bounty, and the gentler that
sphere is extended, the more marked will be any exclusran.
I think the time has come, and I am the more anxious to
avow this opinion, because I believe the avowal will be un-
popular, when justice and geed policy require that you
should give mature consideration to this claim of the Roman
Catholics. I will take the case of the Romeo Catholic popu-
lation of Manchester or Liverpool. Let us look at the ques-
tion, without insisting, on the operation of this or that
minute, or on the exclusion of the ROOM Catholics, because
they are not connected with the National School Societyjor
the British and Foreign School Society. You are gout
to extend the system on which you have been act-
ing, end I do not see how you can continue
the exclusion of the Roman Catholics. (Hear, hear.)
know, es my right hon. friend has said, that it might be
expedient to postpone this question for some months. I do
not wish that there should be a precipitate measure, but yet
I am not dispossed to yield the opinion which I entertain.
(Hear, hear.) Take the catholic population of Manchester.
There is a district called the Irish Town, which contains
60,000 or 70.030 persona. What is the class they belong to ?
They ace distinguished for industry and good conduct, and
they give to the manufacturers the advantage of their labour.
They have no natural yr 'teeters there ere no wealthy menu-
facturers of their persuasion who can hare regard to their
spiritual concerns, er to supply ample means for their educa-
tion, Here, then, are 60,000 or 70,000 of the poor CLIMB,
and how is their education attended to ? I con fees f cannot
conceive • more urgent case, not merely so far as the intel-
lectual advantages of the Roman catholics are concerned,
and in relation to the principle that each a state of things is
productive of crime, and barbarism, and degradation, on
which we are all agreed ; but is it not for the advantage of
the Protestant community that this Roman catholic
population should not be so immersed in ignorance.
So far as their condition is concerned, there could sot be a
stronger claim on the provident and parental aid of the
government. I will not be influenced by any spirit of party,