The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF CONIMCWS.—WEnmEsDAi,Antn. 20.
The rtrameza took the chair at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

had Just sat down. The lime. gentleman proceeled to read
from a petition, which ho had formerly presented to the
beim, statistics illustrating the est. nt of drunkcane‘e ir.
dm.tland ; for instance, one statement beirg that 41,000
persons had env_re I one public-hou,c in one day. Ile tug-
g.-sled exceptions in the appt:eation of this particu:ar part
of the bill to small country places, otter:. there might
be only one general piece of business for groceries and
spirits.
Mr. CItAUFURD thought that the magisuates of Scot-
land had 'already to a great extent the power of restraining
mutely of the evils pointed out.
Mr. DUNLOP thought that the magistrates must be
made, by compulsory posers, to exercise a better discretion
than they had so far exhibited. The great evil Was that
people could Rotor wh slaty into a grocer's shop ut.der pre-
tence of gettiug grecerits, and that thus the shame which
would follow tippliog habits was to a great extent pre-
vented.
Mr. FF.RGUS—Free trade had nothing to do with this
bill, the question was eatirely one of police. Cheere.) Ile,
theretote, called upon the hon. gentleman (Mr. Mackensie)
to persevere with this proposal to legislate against grocers'
shops which e, toted whisk J.
The LORD ADVOCATE.—The evil attainst which this
bill was directed was the national sin of Scotland—a sin
which overshadowed all the other social evils of that coun-
try. lint it was a moral evil, and this bill would not, he
thought, reach the root of the evil. It would, however, be
rfl etual to a great extent, so far as this clause went, and
he could not, therefore, refuse his assent to that clause.
Mr. L HEYWORTH was glad as a teetotaller to see
such a bill introduced. The soli was not only a moral evil,
it was a physical evil, awl as we legislated against poisons
by limiting the sale of arsenic wo should legislate also
Against the solo of intoxicating drinks. Something far more
stringent than this hill wail wanted ; but it was the thin
end of the wedge, and he would live in the hope that the
time would come when the House of Commons would
legislate in the spirit of the Maine legislature. (Laughter.)
Mr. STAPLETON approved of the bill, and would vote
as a free trader without supposing that ho was being in
any respect inconsistent.
In answer to some taunts against his inconsistency,
Mr. lIUME sued he would go farther against this evil
then the hen. gentleman opposite (Mr. Mackenzie.) He
would vote for the introduction of the Maiuo liquor law.
(Great laughter.)
Mr. JA)IE9 14 GREGOR would heartily support the
hon. member for Liverpool.
. .

-
Mr. SOTIIERON moved, that is the ease of the London
awl South Western Railway (Basingstoke and Salisbury
Branch). petit.en for a bill, the standing order, No. 151, be
dispensed with; and that the petition for the hill may be
presented to the house, notwithstanding that more than
three clear days have elspeed since the Mlle was endorsed
by the Elusion of Petitions for Private Bills; und that es
the presentation of the said petition, the report from the
Standing Orders Committee thereupon be read. and that
leave be given to bri in the bill, notwithstanding enure
then three char days have elapsed votes the said report
from the Smutting Orders Committee has been presented ;
and that Mr. Francis Scott and Mr. DAbby S.ym.ur du
prepare and bring it in. The presentation of the petition,
he s od, had been omitted by accident.
The motion was agreed to.
Ou the motion of Mr. CRAUII-Rll. the oiler for the
second reading of the Ardrossus It iilway Bill was dis-
chad.
O the motion of Mr. Witavos, the following numbers
were nominated the 'the sonnsittio oo Wl.ichwood bar
vest Rill—Mr. Watson, Colonel North, L,rd Seymour, Mr.
Granville Ilerei-utt, the Marquis Chaialoa, Mr. Lang-
ston, and bre members to be added by the Committee of
Belt ethos.

PUBLIC BUSINLsS.
PEIIIIONS PUESENTED.

orENINO 0; 7,1;,(.:;;;iL.Fti..;;:i11:.: SUNDAYS.—
By Mr. FORBES, tram Wesleyans of Liveresol, and work-
ing men of Evertoa, Liverpool; Mr. DUNLOP, from
minhter•, oili.,..brarers, and members of the National
Scotch Church, Regenneguare ; against.
Aiim Is.. tote UV JIM,' PLILLIAMENT.—By Mr. LOCK•
HART, from the Presbytery of Selkirk, agaiust.
A IToRN ETA' CESTIVICATEDI'vv.—By Mr.SMOLLETT,
trout solicitors and agents practising in the Sheriff Courts,
Dumbartonshire, in favour of the repeal of.
CLERGY RESERVES SILL.—By Mr. FORBES, from
Presbytery of Peirpost, against.
TAXES ON KNOWLEDOZ.—By Mr. J. MACGREGOR,
from the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge at
Bexley-h. ath, in the canary of Kent. against.
MAYNOOTII.-117 Mr. DUFF, several, from the county
Of Bwr, pines.
F 10711411 UNIVERSITY TESTS.—Bv Mr. lIASTIE,
from v place in Seotleud, for the n peal of the Test Act in
Scotch universities
OCCUPATION or ROME RT THE FIZENCII.—By Mr.
ELIOTT LOCK 11.41tT, from Gelashiels, in reference
to the occupation of Rome by the French troops.
Posture lint see (Stantceu) GILL.—By Sir 0.
MONTGOMERY, from inhabitants of the burgh of
Peobles, in favour of ; Mr. A. HASTIE, from licensed
victuall• to, awl the inhabitants of Glasgow, against ; from
dissenters of the Total Abstinence Seiciety, in hewn of ;
Item the Free Church Abstainer. Society, to the seine
effect; Sir JAMES ANDERSON, from the magistrates
and town comicil of Dunfermline, against; from the minis-
ters and office bearers of the parish of Dunferwliue and the
Second United Presbyteries Congregation, Stirling, in fa-
vour of; also o from the inhabitants of Dunfermline,
against; Mr. HASTIE, from tho St. George's Free
March ministers and office bearers, and from
the inhabitants of the Bridge Mar, in favour of ;
Mr. DUNLOP, from the ministers and office bearers of the
Free Church congregations of St. Theron Greenock, and of
St. Luke's Siberton. havinstrect, and ilolyrood, Edin-
burgh; Mr. FORBES, from Glasgow (6), Melrose (4), St.
Bossed], Earlston, Bowden, Galashiels, Presbytery of
Selkirk, and from almost congregation in Edinburgh,
in femur of ; Mr. SMOLLETT, from inhabitants of Kirk-
infilloch, from ministers and 'office bearers of the esta-
blished church of Scotland in Ilelensburgh, Kilmarnock,
Old Kilpatrick and Marylon, against ; and from the minis-
ten and office bearers of the /gee Church congregation at
Shanden, Old Kilpatrick, and Maryhill, in favour of;
Mr. G. DUNCAN, from the parish of St. Clement's,
Dundee, and from the free St. Andrew's church, Dundee,
is favour of.

Mr. ELLIOT suggested an: amendment to the bill, for
the purpose of preventing the sale of spirits in toll-houses.
Mr. DUNCAN supported the suggestion.
Mr. MACKENZIE did not sec how this point affected
this clause. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. 11. DRUMMOND attributed much of the drunken
habits of Scotland to the excessive and superstitious ob-
servance of the Lord's Day in that country. (" Oh, oh,"
and cheers.) Upon restrained the people from recreation
and walking out of doors, you forced them into drinking in
their houses. Every Saturday night 30,000 men got drunk
in O'issg.iw, and lay in a perfect state of insensibility until
the Monday morning. (Great laughter.) Legislation would
not meet this evil. Common sense only would meet it. The
higher classes must set • good example of graceful and
rational amusement on the Sabbath. (Hear, hear.) They
must find some better way of going on than " tithing anise
and cummin, cud forgetting the weightier matters of the
law."

Hr. ALEXANDER HASTIE protested against this
argument of the hon. gentleman (Hr. Drummond), and
the representations on which it wu baud. But he admitted
that a great deal too much whisay wee drunk in Scotland.
The amendment, after some further discussion, was then
withdrawn, and the clause passed.

Clauses 2 to 5 were agreed to, after some verbal amend-
ments made in them.

Mr. MACKENZIE said that, in consequence of a com-
munication which he had received from the hon. gentleman
the secretary of the treasury, he would postpone the excise
clauses. viz. 6,7, and 8.

Clime 9 was agreed to.
On clause 10, which prohibits grocers sending out mere
then one gallon,
Mr. COWAN suggested six gallons; but the clause, as it
stood, was agreed to.
Clauses up to 14 were agreed to.
On clause 14,
Mr. MACKENZIE said that, by the clause as it stood,
he was informed that a new offence was created (or which
there was no punishment provided by the law of Scotland.
Ile proposed, th .refore, to leave out against the said re-
cited act and this net," and insert, at the end of the clause,
" nod every per.on so offending shall for every such offence
forfeit and pay the penalties hereinafter mentioned, that is
to say, for the first off, nee the sum of five pounds with the
expenses of conviction, and in case such penalty and ex-
penses shall not be paid within the space of fourteen days
next after such conviction shall have taken place, the offen-
der a' all be imprisoned for a period of one calendar month
unless he shall sooner pay such penalty and expenses; and
for the second and every subsequent offence, the offender
shall forfeit the sumo( WI., with the expenses of conviction ;
and in case such penalty and expenses shall not be paid
within the space of fourteen days next after such second or
subsequent conviction shall have taken place, then the
offender shall be imprisoned fur a period of two calendar
months, unless he shall sooner pay such penalty and ex-
penses ; aad it is hereby provided and declared, that the
several penalties and terms of imprisonment may be miti-
gated by the court ; provided always, that by such miliga-
tion such penalties and terms of imprisonment respectively
shall not be reduced to leas than one-fourth thereof."

INDIA.—Mr. FEILDEN, from the Blackburn Com-
mercial Association, praying for certain refusals in the
future government of that country, which shall render it
inadmissible for the Hon. Fait India Cumpany to continue
cultivators of the soil, manufacturers of produce, or traders
in articles of commerce, and that thty shall ne longer be
allowed to receivii by hvpothecatiun any produce, nor be pur-
chasers thercof, in conaucting their financial operations ;
and that they be eismpelled equitably to adjust or annul the'
land tax, and to expend, at least, 10 per cent. of their annual
es venues in public works of utility, such as roads, bridges,
tanks, irrigation, rite., to facilitate the growth of cotton and '
other produce of vast importance to the interests of the
public at large.
RETSESENTATION OP DROGHZDA.—By Mr. DI'CANN,
signed by the mayor and 496 inhabitants of the county of
tie town of Drogheda, comprising the hifinential merchants
and traders of the town, praying fur an additional member
to represent its several commercial, manufacturing, and
shipping interests in parliament.

TERMINABLE

On the motionolgiTh;licAiliaisasi.ir,On the part of
Mr. J. B. Snerit, returns were ordered showing the amount
of annuities fir lives and for terms of years 'remand in each
of the years ending the sth day of January, 1852 and 1853,
end the amount of capital stock cancelled in each of the said
years on account of such terminable annuities; and of the
amount of the annuities for lives and for terms of years
which have (*wit in each of the said years, ending the sth
tiny of January, 18a t and 1853 (in continuation of Parlia-
mentary Paper, Nei. 6.57, of Suasion 1861).
POOR LAW.

Mr. VERNON moved for returns of all applications
made to the poor law board, according to the provisions of
so much el the arm 13 and 14 Vie., e. 37, ac relates ti pre-
ventiog the holding of vestry or other meetings in churches ;
such return to specify the application..granted and refused:
of all cases where, under the provisions of the said set,
lands or premises have been taken on lease or porchased,
and sal, a or 'gauges have been effected for the purpose of
obtaining buildings suitable for vestry meetings; of all ca-es
where the poor law commissionen have given authority for
motiey to be borrowed for such purposes, and charged to the
poor rate ; sad, of all appointments of vestry elerks ander
the said act.
TILE IMPORT DUTY ON SOAP.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
wished to make a statement in regard to ea error in the
customs resolutions which had been printed that morning,
for which he bad to take the blame on himself. In these

The clause as amended was ■greed to.
The other clauses were agreed to.
On one of the schedules
Mr. 9IACKENZIE proposed an alteration, the effect of
which was to prevent hotels, inns, and public-houses, from
selling epirits to be consumed elsewhere, and public•houses
from being opened at all on the Sunday.
Mr. HUME objected to all these interferences. He
thought the people were able to take care of themselves ;
and if they were not, they could not take care of them by
act of parliament. He would not oppose the motion, but
he greatly doubted of its effect. It east • slur on the
people of Scotland, and was a confession that they could
not regulate their ronduct without restraint.
Mr. J. ANDERSON said that all these police regulations
were to be judged of by experience. By the shutting up of
beer-houses in England great good but been effected. He
had no doubt that great good would result from extending
the same principle to Scotland. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COWAN slid that a happy change had taken plies
in Scotland recently, in consequence of the opening of
places of refreshment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME bore testimony to the great moral improve-
ment which took place in London from the same cause.
He thought that it was far better to increase places of ra-
tional amusements for the people than to endeavour to
make them moral by restraints and restrictions. (Hear.)
The schedule, as amended, was agreed to.
The other schedules were agreed to.
Mr. MACKENZIE proposed the following new clause:
—Every offence committed against this act shall be tried and
determined, and all penalties incurred under the authority
of this act shall be recovered and applied in the manner,
and before the courts, and subject to the conditions pro-
vided in the said recited act of the ninth year of George
IV., for the trial of breaches of certificate, and for the
recovery of penalties.
The clause, with • slight addition proposed by Mr.
Dcwi.or, was agreed to.
Mr. ARCHIBALD HASTIE proposed a new clause,
the object of which was to give the magistrates in wile-
mastery boroughs the same power as was now possessed
by roynl boroughs.
Mr. MACKENZIE opposed the clause, and Mr. Deg-
Lor supported it.
The committee divided—
For the clause
Against it
The house then resumed.
ELECTION COMMITTEES.

melte ihns it was proposed that hard seep should be
charged 16s. a ewt., soft soap Its., and Naples 16s. • cwt.
These figures were prepared by him before he had the op-
portunity of submitting to the government the proposition
of abolishing altogether the ezeite duty oa soap, and after
it had been determined to submit that proposition to par-
liament. From the multitude and pressure of business it
had escaped him to strike the soap duties out of the resolu-
tions that were laid en the table, but the intention of the
government was that the duty on the importation of soap
should cease altogether when the 'miss duty ceased. (Hear.)
PUBLIC HOUSES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill ; Mr. Boo-
nate in the chair.
Mr. CRAUFURD suggested that as there were a great
number of amendments which had only been printed that
morning, the consideration of the bill should be postponed
for a short time.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE said a great many of the amend-
ments were mere matters of form. &elan bow difficult it
was for an independent member to get • day, he thought it
would be a little bard if he were not allowed to go on with
the bill.
On the first clause,
Sir H. DAVIE moved the addition of words, the effect of
which would be that persons at present having licences
should continue to hold them during their lives.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE said the hon. member seemed to
think that grocers had a vested interest in their licenses,
whereas it was competent for the justices to take them
away. What he wanted was to put a stop to the system
of servants and the working-Blames drinking spirits at
grocers' shops, instead of takiag any change which might be
due to them. He hoped his hon. friend would not per-
severe in the amendment, which infringed the principle of
the hill. Ile thought that to combine a grocer's shop and a
tippling shop was • very great evil.
Mr. J. M'GREGOR supported the amendment. He
was in favour of a law for regulating public-houses in
Scotland, hut he thought that it should be done by the
magistrates of the town. He regretted to say that Sunday
was is general day for drunkenaess in Scotland.
Mr. EWART said, no one could doubt the desirability of
removing from Scotland the stigma that now attached to it
of being • drunken country, but he doubted whether that
could be effected by this bill. The first clause was to pre-
vent persons from dealing in groceries and spirits at the
same time, which was againq the principle of free trade.
Mr. CUMbIING BRUCE thought it was pushing the
doctrine of free trade rather ten far to say that this clause
would interfere with it. If they adopted the amendment
they might as well throw out the bill altogether.
Mr. HUME was sorry he was not in the house when the
second reading was agreed to, or he should have proposed
a different course. Government was about to appoint a
committee to consider the whole system of licenses, and he
suggested that this bill should be postponed with a view
that the inquiry before the committee should be extended
to Scotland. 1 hey might apply the bill to large towns, but
if they applied it to country towns, and did not allow
poem' shops there to sell spirits they might cause great
inconvenience, and he believed would cause many to have
recourse to illicit practices.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE said the committee would do no
good, htClll5O it was not the licensing system he complained
of. There was a select committee appointed many years ego
which took evidence, and if the hon. gentleman would read
that evidence attentively, he would find that the witnesses
tre, re unanimous in condemning the present system. The
present hill was founded on the report of that committee.
Ile did not want to interfere with the trade of the grocer,
who did not sell his groceries to be consumed on the pre-
mises; and why should he not sell his spirits not to be con-
sumed on the premises ?
Mr. WORTILEY hoped the house would cot be disposed
to accede to the suggestion of the hon. member for Mon-
trose, to delay this measure. The hon. member said it was
not the practice of thinking in grocers' shops that caused
the people to be on drunken. but from their drinking in their
private houses; but where did they first taste blood ? Where
did tie Cl'l'd at t the tint taste of spirit- insteol (.1 the halt
poney si C in rreere in ,at ti:c
grnser's hoop? This L.. 1 w-s not to pter, t.t the grocers
Prom selling spirits, but to prevent them living consumed
ma Cis psalm.
Mr. COWAN agreed with the right hon. gentleman who

Sir J. TROLLOPS brought of the com-
mittee of selection, naming the members to serve on the
committee% to try petitions relating to the elections fur
Berwick, Hereford, and Maidstone.
MAYO ELECTION.
Lord H. VANE brought up the report of the select com-
mittee appointed to try the petition ceupplabrism of an un-
due return for the county of Mayo. Tbe eammittee re-
Mathat George Henry Moore, Esq., sad Here Hanley
as, Esq., were duly elected to saw as haiststs of the
shire for the county of Mayo. The ammiditeo tip reported
that it appeared by the evidence that there bed bees agreat
abuse of spiritual influence on the part odds' great body of
the Roman catholic priesthood at the lot ghettos for the
county of Mayo.
JUDGES' EXCLUSION BILL.

_ _ -----..
On the motion that the house go into committee on this
bill,
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said he came down to the house
intending to move that the Speaker should leave the chair
this day siz months. (Laughter.) But, objectionable as he
thought the bill, he had resolved to let it pass through com-
mittee ; but he should give notice of his intention to move
the rejection of the bill on the third reading.
The house then went into committee and the various
clauses were agreed to.
Oa the schedule being put,
HUMR moved, in order that the Recorder of the
City of London, after the present parliament, Huai, during
his continuance in office as inch Recorder, be incapable of
being elected or sitting as a member of the House of Com-
mon., the words" Recorder of London" be inserted in the
schedule.!

Mr. J. S. WORTLEY said that if the words were in-
serte
fyingdth in th
resee scnt hedu
ecord er.
le it would have the effect of disquali-
e p R
Mr. Ht ME said he did not intend that.
Altar some conversation,
Mr. HUME said he would move the insertion of the
words in the schedule, and if necessary bring up a clause
preserving the right of the present Recorder.
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY, after cApressing his acknowledg-
ments to the host. member fur Montrose for his disclaiming
any desire to affect him (Mr. Wortley) personally, acid
that, painful as it was to him to address the house on a matter
personal to himself, be did not think he should be
doing his duty to the house or to the office
which he held, as well as to his constituents, and whose
rights it was proposed arbitrarily to abridge, if be did not
state what were the duties of the office, the holder of
which it was now proposed to exclude from the house.
There were in the schedule other judges, who, like the
Recorder of London, were not included among the superior
judges, and the introducer of the bill only intended it to
apply to superior judges. The principle of the bill was not
in qu, lion to el ,y, and, if it were, he mhouM shrink from
taking any part in the diseutsion on it, and he should take
no part in a division on the present question if one took
piece; but ice was auxitnui to draw the attention of the
house to the distinction which existed between this office

THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 21, 1853.

sad those to which his noble friend had alluded in intro-
ducing the bill. The principle of the bill was to exclude all
judicial officers wh,sc duties were so absorbing that they
could not attend to the duties required by their offices and
to their duties in this house; and also that their position
was so ex ilted, that it would depreciate their dignity if
they sought to be returned by popular elections or had seats
in this house. Another groand token by the supporters of
the bill was that the judges were in the service of the
crown, and were appointed by the crown. He could show
that the Recorder of London did not come within any one ef
those three character.. The argument on the question he
should now leave to the house, nor should he, as he had
stated, take any part in the division, if one took place.
Mr. III:ME urged, that the ground on which be went
was the iocompatibility of the duties of Recorder of Lon-
dun cod a member of that house. By the act establishing
the Central Criminal Court, sessions were held 12 times a
year, and they gen, rally lasted a week or more, so that one-
fourth of the year was talon up. Ills objection was, that
ju•licial duties were sufficient to occupy the time of any
judge.
Sir 0. ORE' should vote against the amendment, and
he intended to vote against the third reading of the bill,
thinking, as he did, that the principle of exclusion had been
carried far enetioh.
Mr. WIIII'ESIDE wished te Fay a few words with re-
gard to en amendment which he had proposed to the samo
effect with *void to the Recorder of Dublin. Whatever
arguments might be urged to justify the admission of the
j Kee:ruler of L I. e did nut think he should hear any J
jtertiflea•ion with regard to the Recorder of Dublin. The 'j
right hon. ?sir lemoir (Mr. Wortley) said that the appoint.
moot of the ILcurder of London was not made by the
crown; but under the Municipal Corporation Act it was
provided that the Recorder of Dublin should be appointed
by the crown, and be believed part of his salary was paid
:deo by the crown ; so that the argument of the right hon.
gentleman as to the independence of the Recorder of Lon-
don did not apply. T:.e Recorder of Dublin had besides a
very eat( naive jurisdiction and had much to do: he revised
the jury list., heard poor law cases, and presided in a small
debt court, in which a vast number of c .ses were tried,
and all Cilia besides his duly in the criminal court. It
would he difficult to say that such an officer could attend in
that house compatibly with his other duties ; and there was
a marked distinction between the Recorders of London and
Dublin.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would not say a word on
the principle of the bill, but as regarded the amendment
proposed, he thought it was pushing the exclusion of judi-
cial functionaries a great deal too far. Ho could not see
why on the Wine principle all recorders should not be ex-
cluded, as they performed exactly the same functions as
the Recorder of London, although his position was consi-
dered more dignified. As had been said by his right hon.
friend (dr. Wortley) he was similarly circumstanced as
other members, who as serjeants and Queen's counsel dis-
charged the functions of judges on circuit. Would the
bon. memlrr for Montrose exclude all Queen's counsel and
eerjeants from the house ? If he did, he would exclude the
elate of the profession, and although some night think that
the exelushn of lawyers from that house would not be a
bad thing, and although they did perhaps add to the
amusement of the house, still there being some members of
the legal profession might add to the information of the
house on professional subjects. (Hear, hear.) He could
understand the cogency of an argument which had been
urged against superior judges, such as the Master of the
Rolls, laving seats in that house, and which was that they
might be involved in legal discussion with other lawyers in
inferior position to themselves who might differ with them,
and that this would tend to lower their dignity. But that
objection did not apply to criminal judges. As the line
must he drawn somewhere he thought it would be safe to
draw it at the !mint of the Master of the Rolls. With regard
to the incompatibility of the duties of the Recorder of Loa-
don and a member of that house he must remind the hon.
member for Montrose that other gentlemen claimed exemp-
tion from some of their duties as members on account of
their official position, and some on account of their age.
He had heard the hon. member himself claim exemption
from election committees, and would that be a reason for
sayifig he was not as fit as anyone to have a seat in the
house ? and there was no one who would not regret that
that he should be so excluded. He admitted that the Re-
corder of London while he was sitting at the Central Crimi-
nal Court could not attend a committee on a morning sit-
ting of thf house, but the inconvenience must be balanced
against the convenience of having a zertain class of mem-
bers in the house. He should strenuously oppose the amend-
ment.

Mr. LABOUCHERE urged that the question of incom-
patibility in a member to discharge his duties was for the
constituency to decide. As to the general question, he took
the same view as his right bon. friend the member for
Morpeth, and he believed that the principle of the exclusion
of judges from parliament had been pushed not only far
enough but too far; and he believed that the debates
had lost by the exclusion of the judge of the Ad-
miralty Court, as there were often questions of
public law on which he wu competent to give infor-
mation. If it was pushed further to the exclusion
of the Recorder of London, it must be extended to all
Recorders, and they would thus deprive the house of the
assistance of many eminent lawyers. He should be glad if
the bill did net pass through the house, and he should op-
pose the amendment.
Mr. ATHERTON contended that the tendency of the
bib to limit the right of choice in constituencies ought not
to be carried too far; and although he agreed in the exclu-
sion of the superior judges, yet the line must be drawn
somewhere, and if the Recorder of London was excluded,
he did not see where they were to stop, and why all Re-
corders, chsirinen of quarter sessions, magistrates, and all
those who were of the judiel4 due beyond the limit of
the; superior judges, should not alio be excluded. He
should apple the amendment.
. . .

Visconnt MONCK observed that the best mode of testing
a practical question was by experience ; and he thought
that the manner in which the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Stuart Wortley) and the Recorder of Dublin (who had been
chairman of the committee which had decided the important
question between the broad and narrow gauge) bad dis-
charged their parliamentary duties ought to satisfy the
committee that no inconvenience had been occasioned by
the present arrangement.
Mr. HENLEY cordially agreed with the principle of the
bill, but should be sorry to see it extended beyond the line
drawn by the noble lord by whom it had been introduced.
He thought it would be desirable for the hon. member for
Montrose to postpone the contest upon this question, and to
bring up a disuse on the subject on the third readir.g.
Otherwise he would greatly endanger the measure itself.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS objected to the bill, but be objected still
more to the proposed clause, which by the way had pro-
ceeded from an hon. gentleman who had always supported
measures to extend the eligibility of his fellow citizens,
without reference to property or creed. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME assented to the suggestion of Mr. Henley,
and withdrew his amendment. (Hear, bear.)
The next office named in the schedule was that of the
Official Principal and Judge of the Arches' Court of Can-
terbury.
Lord HOTHAM, in reply to some observations of Sir G.
Grey at an earlier period of the debate, remarked that the
Arches Court was one of appeals, and therefore he had
ventured to think that it was a " superior court."
Sir G. GREY said that if they excluded the judges of
the ecclesiastical courts, there were stronger reasons why
they should go further and exclude the recorders; but he
did not agree that those judges ought to be excluded, and
consequently he had objected to the addition to the bill of
recorders. (Hear, hear.) Besides the judge
.of the Arches
Court, the schedule went on to mention the judges of the
Prerogative Courts of Canterbury and of York. Now Mr.
Granville Harcourt bad sat in the house for a long time,
and he (Sir 0. Grey) thought there was no reason for that
prepare].
Lord HOTHAM said that when he had consulted a pro-
fessional friend on the subject, that gentleman said to him,
" What will be said, if, while including the judge of the
Prerogative Court of Canterbury in your bill, you should
leave out the judge of the Prerogative Court of York—and
be a Yorkshiremao, too ? " (Laughter.) He (the noble
lewd) saw the force of that remark, and felt that he had no
other alternative.

Mr. H. VERNON should oppose the bill on the third
reading, but imuonuch as he believed his father had no in-
tention of again seeking a seat in the house, he should be
abeolved from being actuated by any personal motives.
Mr. Serjt. MURPHY thought the fact that there were
five bills before the house for the reform of the Ecclesiasti-
cal Courts was a reason why they ought not to exclude the
judges of these courts at present. When these courts were
reformed, filar judges might be excluded by • clause in the
bill.
Lord HOTHAM was surpriied to hear such a remark
front the hon. and learned gentleman, inasmuch u commit-
tees of the house had over and over again recommended the
exclusion of the ecclesiastical judges, end as clauses to that
effect had been introduced into all the bills on the subject.
Mr. V. SMITH should vote against the bill on the third
reading.
Mr. MALINS said that if they judged of the ecclesias-
tical courts by the extent of their jurisdiction, they were
superior courts. Another criterion was the character et
the advocates practising in them. They were attended by
all the civilians, and by the Queen's Advocate, who was
one of the law officers of the crown, and ranked before the
Attorney and Solicitor-General. (Hear, hear.) He
thought, therefore, that if Vice-Chancellors were ex-
cluded from parliament, there was no pretence for admit-
ting the ecclesiastical judges. lie had no other opportunity
of expressing his opinion on the principle of the bill, be-
cause he had been unable to attend the morning sittings
of the house on Wednesday. (Great laughter.)
Tho remainder of the schedule was then gone through,
and the committee reported progress.
COUNTY ELECTIONS POLLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill as amended was considered, and ordered to be
read a third time.

Zfte ervreiio.

COCKEItMOLTII ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Mr. C. BERKELEY moved that the evidence taken be-
fore this committee be laid upon the table.
Agreed to.
The house then adjourned shortly before nix o'clock.

SAVINGS BANKS 111EFALCATIONS. Somo most
serious defalcations have just been discovered at one of the
savings banks in the Isle of Wight, by which the poorer
classes will be defrauded of their hard earnings to the tune
of about 8,000/. It appears that the entries of deposits have
been falsified, by which means defalcations to the above
amount have been tlTQcted. It is time that government
should prevent these crud robberies of the poor and saving
chases, or the di•writion to be fru;nil wilt be materially
di,clarar,-d. If pie nr.• is lne,Ll invest
their savings in e,t.thlishments under government auspice.,
the government should render such investments secure, b
appointing auclitOrs to periodically visit sayings banks and
audit their accounts.