The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1853.

he had received his information from Sir Elbert Peel. The
archbishop did not contemplate the secolarishig of the
clergy , and he (Lord J. Russell) did not remember
that any such contingency was mentioned by him. As to
the other point the Archbishop did not take on himself to
answer for the church of Scotland. He believed that either
the Archbishop or Sir It. Peel had communicated with the
Commissioners of the General Assembly of the church of
Scotland, who ropy tented that church, sod who had autho-
rised the negotiation.
Mt. lIICHE said that if it appeared that by law the Con-
solidated Fund would be liable is any of the c'ergy ap-
pointed subsequent to the passing of the bill Me gave notice
that after the third reading be should move the reinsertion

of the third clause, in ora'r to girt a security against such

claims.
THE PICTURE CLEANING AT THE NATIONAL
GALLERY.
Mr. SEYMOUR begged to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer if the government will give orders that until
the select committee shall have reported to the house on the
National Gallery, no cleaning of the pictures therein coa-
-1 Mired, except careful dry dusting, shall bs permitted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
Mt cognisant of the circumstances referred to in the extract
Past read until he was made acquainted with them by the
Martesy of the hon. gentleman. The bon. gentleman wu
Mare that it had been the pleasure of parliament to direct
that the care of the pictures in the National Gallery should
be placed not in the government, but in trustees appoir ted
for the purpose. He had not had en opportunity of making
himself muter of the circumstances, but he had instituted
an inquiry, and he bopcd on an early day, perhaps en Mon
day, to give a full answer to the question of the hon.
gentleman.
CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL.
Sir J. PAKINGTON gave notice that on Monday, be-
fore the third reading of the Clergy Reserves (Canada) Bill
he should repeat the qiwation he had put this evening to
the noble lord (J. Russell) with regard to the opinion of the
litar officers of the Crown.
BOROUGH OF RYE.
Sir J. PAKINGTON wished to put a question to the
sight hon. gentleman the member for Deoonc art *ith re-
paid to a notice he hod given for a motion for the issuo of •
mew writ for the borough of Rye on Thursday next. lie
wished to correct a misstatement which the right hon. gen-
tleman had made in giving his notice and presenting a pe-
tition signed by a large 1111 tuber of the electors of Rye.
That petition was directed against one presented by him
(Sir .1. Pakington), and it was stated that the latter was
signed by very few electors, and those principally in the
employ of the gentleman who was a candidate for the
borough. Now, although the signatures to that petition
were few, yet it was signed by a clergyman and magistrate
and • landed proprietor, and it recommended that no writ
should issue pending the inquiry into corruption in the
borough. Although there had been some delay, the further
inquiry would be proceeded with as soon as possible, and
only yesterday he (Sir J. Pakington) bad signed no less
than 60 summonses to witnesses. Ho thought that, per- '
haps, under the circumstances the right hon. gentleman
would not press his motion far the issuing of the writ.
Mr. TUFNELL said that he had given notice of moving
for the issue of the writ in consequence of the petition,
which was so numerously signed ; there being no legal im-
pediment to its issuing during the inquiry ; and the peti-
tioners were apprehensive that there would be a long delay
is the issuing of the writ. Under the circumstances stated
by the right hon. gentleman, he should not press his motile ;
and he only hoped there would be no undue delay in the in-
vestigation.
METROPOLITAN GRAVEYARDS.
Mr. SEYMOUR put the question of which he had given
notice : When the graveyards and burial-places within the
city and metropolis of London are to be bully closed, and'
what further steps have been taken to provide the means of
extramural interniont ?
Lord PALMERSTON—I will repeat to my hon. friend
what I stated to the House on a former occasion. I have
inetiucted the proper medical officers so make inspection of
the graveyards of the metropolis, that inspection is now
going on as fast as circumstances will permit ; and the ye-
..
•slt hitherto lb—

;tilt ._ has been that, in every Case, I have applied to
the council office for an order in council for the purpose of
closing the graveyards. (Hear, hear.) I think that the
probability is that the same course will be pursued with
regard to almost all the graveyards. (Hear, hear.) With
regard to the arrangements for burials beyond the defined
limits those arrangements must, of course, rest with the
parishesconcerned ; but I apprehend that the great extent
of the ground which has been taken for that purpose near
Woking, would be amply sufficient to meet all demands of
parishes (or a long pen, dof time. (Hear, hear.)
IRISH NATIONAL SCHOOL BOOKS.
Mr. F. SCULLY put the question of which he had
Riven notice, whether any arrangements have been adopted
to insure the sale of books intended for the use of the Irish
National Schools, to the promoters of schools and the public,
in an authentic form and at a moderate price.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to ray, that an ar-
rangement, with a view to promoting the sale of these
books is an authentic and available form, was in progress,
but that at present it was not desirable to state the nature
of the arrangement. The papers showing what was done
would soon be ready, and the hon. member could then
move for their production.
THE NATIONAL DEBT RESOLUTIONS.
Mr. DISRAELI would make a suggestion which might
conduce to the advantage of public business. It would ap-
pear that the resolutions of which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had given notice on Monthly relating to the re-
duction of the National Debt, and which had been distri-
buted yesterday (Thursday), had this day (Friday) under-
gone seine important alterations. Since he had entered the
house he had received, by the courtesy of the Secretary of
the Treasury, a copy of the altered resolutions ; and he had
ob d that some of the alteradons were of a very im-
portant character. (Hear, hear.) Under these circum-
stances, perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
confine himself that night to makinar his statement, and
would not ask the house, which would his unprepared, to
come to any conclusions on the subject. (Hear, hear.)
--‘0 CHAN(' 7XCHP-11.7ER.—That

The CI ACELLOR of theEXeHEQL
• question which must depend on the feelings of the howl.:
after they had beanl his statement. The opinion which
the right hon. gentleman had expressed would no doubt
have great weight ; hut in his statement he (the Chancellor
Exchequ ' • into the - of

statement to WWI at that time; but he had uu-
derstood that UN hon. gentleman did not think
that the statement wee in a State to ho offered now with soy
probability of • satisfactory conclusion. But he quite
agreed with the hon. member for Montrose, that the subject
was a very important one, and one which the house should
be prepared to go into. (Hear, hear.)
[At this point in the proceedings, which, it will be ob-
served by the report were of a very irregular character,
the contusion was greatly increased by the evening having
deepened into decided darkness, and, no lights beiug,forth-
coming, it was a matter of great difficult to see
what was going on. After loud calls for light,
and the ringing of signal belle in various direc-
tions, a blase of gas was at last It in ; and the elf.:et
was theatrical—Lord J. Russell, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. J.
Wilson, and Mr. Patten all beita• detected on their legs. at
the same time. Mr. J. Wilson was moving that at its rising
the house should adjourn to Monday ; Mr. Patten, cheered
by the members around hies, was about to make the state-
ment Mr. Hume had invited; and Lord J. Rossill was
pointing out to Mr. Bouverie, who sat nett to him, that he
should take the chair—the Speaker having by this time
left—und Mr. Gladstone being ready to proceed with his
resdutions. Mr. Bouverie having risen Mr. Paten gave
way, Mr. Wilson sat down, and, amid cheering, Mr. Bou-
eerie took the chair, and regularity was thus restored. The
order of the day being read.]
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then pro-
ceeded to slunk as fellows— It is now my duty to explain
to the eorn,uittie, as well a. I am able, the nature of the
propositions which, on the part of the goverament, I have
to make to them with respect to operations on the inie
clonal debt; and the course which I think would be most
convenient to the house ter me to take would be this: that
I should, in the first instance, state the plan such as her
Majesty's government recommended for adoption; and
that I should put together, before I sit down, suchodtera.
times as have been made in the draft of the resolutions
since they were ant distributed ; and the house will then
see both the plan, as it is, and the alterations, separate
from the plan ; and they will then be best enabled to judge
whether it will be most for the general convenience to
proceed with the discus-ion and take a vote to-night, or to
postpone that vote until a future evening. I will nut com-
mence these explanations by dwelliug iti any degree on the
importance of the subject to which they refer. I would
rather, if I could, after view jog the amount of public in
tercet which it has excited, endeavour to moderate each ex-
pectations as may have been formed in the public mind
1 do not recommend the prspoeition which is now before
the house as a proposition which can effect any sweeping or
fundamental change ; but I ven•ure to recommend it as a
proposition which is just and prudent in itself, and which
will probably lay the foundation ter more extended future
improvements. (Hear, hear.) Now, the committee ought
to understand that there is the broadest possible distinction
between our position at the present time and the position
in which former finance ministers have stead when they
have proposed extensive operations of this kind. Every
oue of these operation. between the peace and the year 1814,
when they were worthily wound up under the auspices
of my right hon. friend, the member fur the University
of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn)—by a plan inferior is wis-
dom to none that had gone be fure—(hear, hear)—have had
an issue comparatively simple to deal with ; and they have
marked the successive stages by which you effected a great
transition in respect to your debt, frem a state of prolonged
war, when money could only be raised at high rates of in-
terest, to a state of peace, commercial progress, and the
general stability of our institutions. The case ROW is widely
different. Anti new I come to the description of the plan
itself. It consists of three portiere. The first of these is
what I may call cert duly a minor portion of the
scheme, and I will enter upon it first in order to
dispose of it and put it out of view. It is the
liquidation of certain minor stocks which appear
on the schedule of the national debt, the very existence of
which is unknown to a great portion of the public, nnd per-
haps to a great portion of this house. These minor stocks
are chiefly those connected with the South Bea Company.
There is the debt due to the South Sea Company, the
amount of which now stands at 3,666,0001. Then there
are the Old South Sea Annuities, 2,775,0001. ; the New
South Sea Annuitiet, 1,997,0001., within a fraction of two
millions ; the South Sea Annuities of 1751, amounting to
400,000/. ; and the Bank Annuities 670,0001. I speak
of the capital value of these annuities, the amount
of which is about nine millions and a half sterling. Now,
with regard to these, it is proposed that we should under-
take what is called a compulsory operation, that is to say,
that we should tender certain alternatives to the holder,
and at the same time inform him that, if he does not ac-
cept one or the other of the.ie alternatives, he will at the ex-
piration of the proper period be paid off. I think the house
will agree with me that this—viewing its moonlit, viewing
the state of the revenue, viewing the state of the public
credit, and the balances actually at the command of
parliament and in the Exchequer—is a safe operation.
Then I would further represent that this would
effect real economy. I thiuk that with regard to
this portion of the public debt we shall succeed
in effecting a moderate reduction, hut still a reduce
Lion in the interest of the public debt. If on
these nine millions and a half we effect an average reduc-
tion cf only a quarter per cent, in the interest, yet still that
quarter per cent. will represent a permanent annual saving
to the country of 25,000/. With regard to the means of
paying off a portion of this debt, there will be, in the first
place, the cash in the exchequer; there will be in the second ,
place the bonds, the nature of which I will state more par-
ticularly by-and-bye; and there will be likewise the power
which I propose to take of issuing an amount of these Ex- !
chequer Bonds, exactly in the same manner as a power is '
annually inserted with regard to Exchequer Bills, in your
Appropriation Act.. And there will be, lastly, the alternative
stock which we oiler to the party at his optiou. Tile only re-
maining point I have to state with regard to these stocks is,
that perhaps a difficulty may have been raised with
regard to moat of them, whether parliament was
bound in law to give them the benefit of a
notice of twelve months. The case did not appear to us to
be entirely clear. It not being clear, we thought—espe-
cially considering the limited amount of stock and their
comparatively defenceless condition—we thought it better
to give the stockholders the benefit of that doubt, and to
give them the full notice. There is only one exception in
which six months is absolutely defined by law, and it is also
defined that the notice must be in the handwriting of the
sovereign, and exhibited to the public view on the Royal
Exchange. Well, now I have disposed of one portion of
this scheme, and I come now to the second ant the third.
The second relates to the issuing of Exchequer Bonds, and
the third relates to a voluntary commutation depending
entirely on the option of the holder of the Three
per Cent. Stocks, that is to say, the Three
per Cent. Consols, and the Three per Cent.
Reduced, amounting together to a capital of very nearly
500,000,000/. But I now refer to both these plans, because
both of them have in view one and the same ultimate ob-
ject, and that ultimate object is to lay the found ttiou of an
irredeemable public debt—l mean irredeemable at the
option of the holder, bearing 24 per cent. interest. The
modes in which we propose to attain that end will appear
as 1 proceed. In the meantime I wish to impress on the
committee that that is the ultimate end I have in view. I
know that there are some gentlemen who think that this
reduction of the Three per Cent. Stock to a rate of Two-
and-a-Half per Cent., is a very simple matter, which may
be delayed for ono or two yell", but which it se
quite certain will be accomplished at last. Those
persons are more penguin.) in their temperament
than I am. I do not say that you may not
entertain the hope, but I do say it is a subject of consi-
derable uncertainty, and that if you do hope to accomplish
it you ought not to miss using the rational means of !accom-
plishing it, and that you should not trust to particular Cir-
cumstances to effect a great reduction in the interest el
money. It may come no doubt, but the present goneratles
is • good deal misled from the fact that they succeed a gearl
ration that lived in a time when money was dear and we
live in a generation when money is cheap, and not extend-
ing our views so far, knowing that our forefathers burrowed
of the public at 5 or 6 per cent., and that we can borrow at
3 per cent., we assume that we are travelliag down an In-
clined plane. But this Is an important and a curious fact,
and one that ought to be borne in mind, that there was a time
when the public credit was even higher than it is at the
present moment. I think it was in the year 1739-114
years ago; and in the middle of June that the Three per
Cents., which are but just at par now, were at the price of
107; and I wish to call this fact to the recollection of the
committee, in order that they may appreciate the immense
difficulties that attend an operation of the character that
we have now in our view. Now, sir, the Exchequer Bonds
that I propose, on the part of the government, to issue will
have the following leading characteristics, which I will
state in the first instance concisely, together, and without
comment for the clear a; prehension of the house. In the
first plaee, they will be transferable by simple deli-
very, and without cost of any kind. (Hear,
hear.) In the second place, they will bear inte-
rest in the first instance at the rate of 21. 15s. per cent.,
and subsequently at the rate of 21. 10s. per cent., and I
propose that the number of years at which they should bear
interest at 21 15.. per centum shall thus be dealt with—that
a limit shall be fixed by parliament beyond which the rate
of interest shall not on any account be allowed to extend,
sad that a discretion be given to the commissioners of the
treasury to reduce that limit before they come to the actual
period for the issue of the bond., so that you may give the
government the full advantage of the latest information,
and the most recent and the freshest views at the time they
are eelled upon to act. Tee committee will see the dis-
advantage under which wo should be placed, if we
Wee absolutely to tie up our hands so that
me could not depart from any given course. The
beads will, after the Ist of September, 1861, at tweet,
bat perhaps at a period earlier than that bear interest at the
sate of 21. 10t., to lst September, 1891, that is, a period of
40 years, during which 1 propose that these resolutions
should operate, and after the year 1894 they will be subject
to redemption, whether by the ...tate, or whether by the
holders, is another point to which I will by-and-bye call
the attention of the house. But toy propene] is, that the
question at whose option they shall be redeemed, shall
not be decided by a vote of this committee to-night,
bat shall likewise be confided for the present to the
discretion of the government. I propose lastly, that
these Exchequer Bonds shall not exceed, under any
authority to be conveyed by these resolutions,
thirty millions in amount. Tnere are many other
miser questions, but at the same time questions of cone'-
, dereble importance with respect to these bond., to which I
' will only refer in the fewest possible words, in order that I
may not load the discussion; hut still they are questions
which will bear ea the value and the popularity of the secu-
rities The form iu which the bonds are to be drawn, the
mode in which the interest is to ho paid, will probably—l
say probably—be by coupons attached to the bonds;
the places where the interest is to he payable, that is to
say, whetht r only at the !link of England and the Bank
Of Ireland, or lila:wise at the branch ; tht mile of

securieg these bosh against the possibility of
forgery, and replacing them when lost-these are
all matters of an executive character on which
it is not necessary for me to detain the house at the
present
moment. These bonds may be issued in the follow-
' ing modem, and I am quite sure the committee will forgive
me for stating, in as plain language as I am able, consider-
ing the necessity of devising a mode of framing resolutions
.116,,
fkind e irnulser
ofh a
the mannerhouscaswtiothsarter
g'itiYr ci he
Ito
operrtions of this sort, and vet forming a plan and what is
jealouse subject
dem ea f
demands
called a readable document--I therefore venture to put
before the house the principal resolutions in • distinct
form. I propose that there Exchequer Bonds shall
he capable of being deposed of in four different
merles. The first is that they shall be exchaegealele
&menet Exchequer hills. There may be gentlemen who
may say.. Why not let the Exchequer Bills alone, surely
you ought to he content with the conditions on which you
now hold a suns of ne ei ly 18,000,0001 at a rate of interest
not rising above the very moderate figure of 11 per cent."
I aria perfectly satisfied with the prevent condition of Ex-
chequer Bills ; but the condition of Exchequer Bill+ is like
a summer's sky-it may be varied, under tne influence of
circumstances, in a very short period. The funding of Ex-
chequer Bills, when you have a fair opportunity uf doing
so, is • wise oeeration. I do not say it would be unwise,
if we could, to issue these Exchequer Bonds at the rate of 2i
per cent.for the purp.ae of fandingExchequer Bills for which
we pay lj percent. When yore get the quantity of Exchequer
Bills very low,then the condition of Exchequer Bills becomes
strong, but you likewise greatly strengthen the condition of
I government, and enable them to go into the market with
an advantage e !rich you crud scarcely pOSAUS it the state,
the price, of Exchequer bills was low. And 1 state this, not
1 that I am anxious that we should rued Exchequer Bills, hut
1 that we should have power to do so, and I wiil just stem to
I the house the price at which previous fundings of Exchequer
Bills have been effected. In 1820 there was &funding of
Exchequer Bills when 1001. in Exchequer Bills was
funded for 1071. stock, representing a rate of in.
tenet of 41. Os. Sd. per cent. In 1823, 1001. of
Exchequer Bills on being funded brought -1001. 10s.
' at 4 per cent. representing a rate of interest of
41 Is. 2.1. per cent. In 1839, 1001. in Exchequer Bills
was funded at 109/. Three per Cent. Stock, reoreseuting
a rate of interest at 31. 10s. per cent. In 1811, Exchequer
Bill, were again funded ; Exchequer bills for each 1001.
being exchanged for 1121. 2, Three per Cent. stock, re-
presenting a rate of interest of 31. 7s. 2d. per cent. Thee,
the commite e will see that, when you have had occasion to
fund Exchequer Bills, the very beg terms have beer, 3'. 7s.
per cent., and other tr rms hate been as high as 41. Os. 8.1.
per cent., that tate of interest, recollect, not representing
I the rate of interest in Exchequer Bills-namely, a
I rate of interest for which you have made a
temporary bargain for a few months, but a rate
of interest on a new public debt as permanent
as any other funded debt. Under these circumstances I
propose to the committee that we may be authorised, it we
I think tit, within the limits authorised by the resolution,
I to exchange Exchequer Bills fur Eschegrier Bonds, and,
in case of our issuing them for that purpose, they will be at
the rate of 21. 10s, per cent., which will he an average
saving of more than one percent. on the rate at which Ex-
ci.equer Bills have been funded before. The next .purpose
to which I propose that these bonds shall be applicable is
that they shall be exchanged against stock. It is not ne.
emery that we should discuss that part of the proposition
now, because I shall come to it later, but I likewise pro-
pose that these Exchequer Bonds may be sold by
the covernment, and the proceeds applied to the purchase of
stock for the purpose of redemption or applied to the purchase
of Exchequer Bills. They art likewise intended to meet the
particular case with reference to that small portiou of the
public debt which we propose to pay off. It may be found
most convenient that we should sell these bonds and apply
the proceeds as cash to meet the demands of those who
wish to be paid off, which might happen to an extent be-
yond the balances in the it:chequer. Now, with re earl to
the advantage of these bonds, 1 need only `say that the sub-
ject has been a subject of the moat careful and anxious con-
sideration, but one of the great dangers attending ques-
tions of this nature is that they of necessity involve
the arriving at conclusions en questions of great
importance with imperfect iuformatioa. Public feeling
after all, soil the opinion of the commercial classes, are the
test on which ultimately • measure of this nature depends,
and what will be the state of public feeling at a given time
with regard to such a measure, id a matter on which the
very best judgment, even under the most favourable cir-
cumstances, will be uncertain. I cannot blame myself for
not having taken all tree pains in my power compatible with
the strict and absolute secresy which this measure re-
quired to ascertain what prospect*, according to the best
and wisest judgments, there were of bringing out bonds of
this kind into the rocket, but at the same time it was a
matter of extreme difficulty to arrive at such data as would
justify me it absolutely fixing on the terms of the
proposition front which there should be no variation what-
ever. However, the grounds that we have to expect
that the bonds will he a popu:ar and current se-
curity I will briefly state. In the first instance,
there is the easy transfer of these securities entirely
without cast. It is difficult for us to say what may he
the precise a ffect of that easy and rapid transfer without
any cost, because we have no precedent among the various
descriptions of the present public securities, but we have a
partial means of forming a judgment from the fact that
there are many foreign securities current in this country
which are transferable from hand to hand. I by no means
compare these foreign securities with the securities which
it is now proposed to create. I hope that without
any undue pride, yet Englishmen may so far hold
up their heads, that the instruments by which they secure
the public creditor may hold a very high, rank, perhaps the
highest rank among similar securities throughout the world.
But we hero the means of judgment on this matter, for it
sometimes happece that there are foreign securities current
in this country, the game description of security in every
I other respect, but different in this one respect, that they
require a formal process in order to transfer in the one case,
while in the other case transfer is effected by delivery from
hand to hand, and 1 believe I am correct is saying, from
the information of persons having the best knowledge, that
it is found that the Simple effect of transfer by delivery
from hand to hand adds very considerably to the value,
and in some instances to the amount of several peunds
per centum. (Rear, hear.) Then there is this great ad-
vantage, that they will be a permanent security so far as a
long time goes,within which no change shall take place. I do
not meant) say that by issuing an instrument for so long a
period, this guarantee will make a very great change in
the value. More rittaguirie persons think it will. I do
I not urge thae but I meet point out theemportant effect, not
so much in this case as in other cases, tkat this element of •
guarantee exercises in the case of securities. My right hon. '
friend the member for Cambridge, when he proposed that
the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. should be reduced to
Threedind-a-Quarter, and after October, 1854, to Three
per Cent., he likewise provided that they should have a fur-
her certain currency at Three per Cent. fur 30 years, with-
in which period there should not be any further reduction.
It is perfectly possible and easy to give an answer to the
question, " What is the value, under the present circum-
stances, of money and credit, of • guarantee by the public
not to reduce the interest of a particular security below 31.
per cent, within 21 years from the present time ?" Now, it
will be recollected, this is not like the value of a guarantee
against reduction upon a security bearing an interest of 5
or 4 per cent. ; but it is only a guarantee not to reduce
below 3 per cent. The committee has the means of testing
exactly the value of such a guarantee. The present price of
the stock of the right bon. gentleman, which pays 33, and
which will become a 3 per cent. stock in October, 1854,
but which will not he liable to further reduction for 20
years, was, according to the authorised report of yesterday,
1031. ss. at the close. Now the dividends have just been paid
upon the whole of this awls, so that that will not enter
into the question ; but there are still three dividends to be
received at the present rate, namely, those in Oc-
tober next, April, and October, 1854. Toe excess of
dividend which will be received those three times is just
2s. 6d. each, and therefore that must bo deducted in
order to compare a guaranteed with an unguaranteed stock.
If then, we substract the 7e. 61, that will leave 1021. 17e. 6d.
as the price of a three per cent. stock, which is guaranteed
against reduction for twenty-one years. (Hear, bear.)
Now let us see what is the price borne by the best of our
three per cent. stocks, which is not fortified with that
guarantee. I will take the Three per Cent. Consols, be-
cause they are the largest stock, and coneequontly bear the
highest value in the market. From the same official re-
turns I find that the closing price of Three per Cent. Cent-
sole yesterday was 1001. 12s. 6d. But the dividend on
this kind of stuck is payable in July, so that half of that, or
15e., must be deducted from the aepareut price. Therefore
in strictness the present price of unguaranteed Three per
Cent. Centel', is 99/. 17s. fiel. (Ilear, hear.) lint
1021. 17s. 6d. is the price of the same stock guaranteed
against reduction for twenty-one years, and therefore the
value of that guarantee in the market at the present time is
no lees than It. per centum. (hear, hear.) Now I want
to get hold of that value for the public; and, therefore I ask
the house to put that guarantee upon some of the stocks,
and thus appropriate the advantage to the public. (Hear.)
I think it would not be at all unfair to assume that this new
stock would be found very valuable in the commercial
world. It would be found very convenient as a means of
raising temporary loans, fur it coma he uepesited without
expense, and that would be another element of iacreased
value. (Hear, hear.) There is another paint upon which
I look as one of considerable importance. 1 imagine that
if we go back for a certain number of years, we shall arrive
, at a time-and that is by no means a distant period-when
dealings in public securities were almost entirely confined
to the metropolis-dealings, I should add, not only iu public
securities, but in stocks generally. At that time there could
hardly be said to be • stack market out of the metropolis ;
but the immense progress iu public enterprise has led to the
formation of multitudes of joiatotock companies, many of
them of the highest class, arid to the investment in rail, aye
of between two and three hundred millions; and has given
rise to transactions of immense magnitude in the provinces.
This altered state of circumstances has created regular
stock markets in Liverpool, Menclieeter, Leeds, Glasgow,
E linburgb, Birmingham, and other towns, iu which very
large transactions are daily carried on. From these lucid
stick markets, however, at the present time, the public
securities are almost eieirely excluded. I do not mean to
say that nobody in the provinces ever buys them. No el itiht
they are bought to • large amount for the purpose of in-
vestment: but they are obtained principally through the
medium of London clue spend, arts. It you inquire at Li-
verpool, for instance, or at any of the other provincial
markets, you would find that there are uo dealings at all
in the public securities there; or that at all events they
era absolutely insignificant in amount. Now, I must
frankly confess that I am anxious to bring the public secu-
rities into the provincial markets, because if you eidaree
the circle of the demand, you ill^frase the value of the com-
modity. Just as when, with a fixed DUltiller of bus ers, if
you iecrease the amotiat of the ceinniali.y, you diminish its

value ; so when you have a fixed amount V.' the esmtuodity
if you increase the number of the buyers, you augment
the value of the commodity. Let us endeavour, thee, to
give that element of value to the public securities. Bee
some people will say, " Why not alter t to present mode of
trausterieg stuck ? Why do you nut. instead of requiring a
personal attendance at the hank and the signature
of a hook, Permit the parties to sign some legal document
which might be transmitted by post? " Now, 1 confess I
do not eve my way to such a measure. My belief is,
that the present mode of transfer, for Lendum which is the
centre of the monetary trams:settees of Englauad and of the
world, is as nearly as possible perfect. It is the most rapid,
the most cheap, the most secure, and the most satisfactorythat has ever been devised ; and I dread to interfere with
what has proved to be of such immense advantage. There
may no doubt, be mode without bteaking up that system,
of introducing the proposed alteration, but I Lave sever
been tot fortunate as to hear one proposed that seemed
likely to be satisfactory. I think, therefore, it would be a
most serious evil to sacrifice the Mullense attvantage which
the great central market now enjoys, for the *eke of a
contingent advantage to the minor markets. But if, with.
out breaking up that system at all, w e can get the public
securities into the provincial markets, we shall achieve a
double good; because, in the first place, we shall enhance
the value of the public securities, and shall thus give great
additional strength to the public credit; and we shall, in
the next place, introduce a further element of stealinesa.
(Hear, hear.) When all your dealings are iu one market
they are more open to the influences of combination; but
where you have many markets in different parts of the
country, it would he much morn difficult to divert them
from their natural course, or to render them liable to urlifis
cial intim:ma. (Hear, hear.) There is yet another point
which deserves consideration. This new stock woull beetle
extremely eligible fur foreigners who might wish to invest
their money in our funds, but who would like to have the
document in their own possession. (Hear, hear.) Theses
then, arc the principal reasons which have induced the gm
veraeuent to me; the house to authorise the creation of a
seek if this kind. But there are two points of considerable
difficulty. 'lie first of these is a point upon which a great
portion of this question depends. Ate these securities, which
you call Ex.:au:quer Honda, to be merely very long-dated
Exchequer Buis, which the public at a certain period,
whetlis r it as ill or will not, and totally irrespective of the
circumstances of the times, may be celled upon to repay ; or
are they to be guaranteed against reduction or interft mice
for a certain time; but atter that, are the public, and the
public only, to enjoy the power of redemption, to use or act
to use it, as they may think fit ? The government feel
the difficulty of this question in the absence of all
that informetion, and all that knowledge of public opinion
which cin wily be elicited by, discussion in the public
journals and elsewhere. Ne ithout that information we
must, as it were, come to a decision in the dark. If we had
said these securities shall be securities absolutely redeem-
able at the will of the holder., we might have run conside-
able risk. The unfavourable circumstances even of a few
posts might here destroyed uur scheme, even at the moment
of its birth into the world : and we might have seen the
essential portion of our plans remain abortive. If, oa the
other hand, we had worded the resolutions to as to de-
clare the bonds not to be redeemable, I believe we should
have been told that the present state of the securities are SO
satisfactory in their character, that as permanent, irredeem-
able securities there might be; many persaus willing to hold
them. In this ddficalty tt appeared to the government to
be the wisest course to ask parliament fur a discretionary
power to use the information which discussion will elicit
between the time of massing au act founded
upon these resolutions and the issuing of the
securities, as circumstances shall render advisable.
It is quite clear, tied if we got out these 1z per cent.
bonds, it might be very well worth the while of persons to
hold them; but then we should not have achieved what I
have described as our great object—namely, the bringing
before the public eye, and into the habits of this mercan-
tile community, the habit of dealing with permauent public
securities bearing 21 per cent. interest. That would never
have been a nermeuent security: it would have been a very
long dated Exchequer. Bill. (Hear.) Another difficulty
is tt.e committee were asked to give the government
pewees to cell these new securities for the redemption of
sock, or the cancelling of Exchequer Bills; and persons
might say, " You may throw them away, or part with them
for nothing, air sell them at tee great a price; or you may
be so stiff end rigid that when men offer their full value you
will not take it." Well, it is quite true, that those who act
for the public may fail to discharge their duties ; but you
will greatly damage our position as your agents, and
prevent us from taking advantage of any circumstances
that may occur, if you insert in these resolutions
the terms upon which, or not at all, these Exchequer
Bonds arc to be sold. We, therefore, thought the but
mole of meeting the reasonable desire of parliament to be-
come completely master of these transactions would be
this—to ask you to coufer upon the government a discre-
tion which should be employed, and which would enable
us to deal freely with the securities that ore about to be
created, but et the same time to limit the amount of the
securities which shall be issued under these resolutions in
such a %ray that you need not fear It commit to us, free and
unhampered, the power we seek. On this account it is, I
have proposed that no Exchequer Bends shall be issued
under these resolutions exceeding 30,000,000/. Another
limitation is that the issuing of these Excite liter Bonds shall
absolutely determine on tie eili of April, 'Set. It is not
that I assume only e 0,000,000!. will be requ.rtd, or that
30,000,0001. could be issued by April next ; but nay object
is this: We wish to bare lower to try an experiment, and
this limitation tall compel us to come back to parliament if
we should ba &spec* to go beyond that mo-
derate extent. (Hear, bear.) Now, the question
is are these bonds constituted upon a sufficiently
broad basis for the operation we are proposing to the house?
I think not. I have said much iu commendation of instru-
ments of this character and form of public security; but as
it is argued in the many intelligent discussions wi.ich have
already appeared ou the subject, these bonds would not be
a security of the most desirable kind fur al: parties who are
at present holders of public stocks. I look upon these bonds
as a commercial and trading security, that will suit the
purposes of classes engaged in commerce generally, end of
course of those who deal pertieulaey in public stocks and in
money. But there are a large class of holders of public
stocks who would reap no advantage from making tranaters
cheap, because they do not wens to transfer at all ; and who
do not wish fur any alteration in the mode of paying the
interest because they are satisfied with the present system.
These persons may, in fact, be described as the permanent
heldete ; and they comprise, that lerge class who hold in the
capacity of trustees either for public budies or under
private settlements. I wish to put it to the com-
mittee that the government did not confine their operations
to these Exchequer Bonds alone, because it was obviously
desirable, if it could he dime without mischief, that the re-
solutions should suit all classes of the public creditor. toe
the purpose, therefore, of meeting the case of the permanent
holders, we likewise propose that there should be the means
of a voluntary conversion of the great Three per Cent.
stock—a voluntary conversion iu the strict% st sense, for no
other conversion can be thought of now. In approaching
this great phalanx of Three per Cents„ defended as they
are by their amount, their rate of interest and their right
of twelve months' notice, we must feel like a prudent
general when he approaches a fortification of the first class.
An our operations must be conducted with the utmost eau-
tion. I was not sorry to hear our terms described as too
liberal to the fundholeler ; but when gentlemen say that we
might get better terms, I should be more disposed to take
notice of them if they could show some transactions in
point. and if we had the motley in our pockets. his our duty
to offer to the fundkelder fair terms, but at the same time
we ought to take care tnat we do not commit parliament
to any resolutions whatever, that would involve anything
dangerous or objeceonable. We propose that in the time
between the passing of the act to be founded upon them
resolutions, and the 10th of neat Oetuher, the holders of the
Three per Cent. Consolidated Stock, and the Three per Cent.
Reduced Stock, may have an option of exchanging each
1001. of caoh stock, into any one of the three following forms:
—The first is that of the Ee.eh, quer Bonds at par, upon
which I have enlarged considerably. The second is a
Three-sad-a-Hell per Cent. Stock to be created for the
purpose, upon the condition that each 1001. of perpetual
annuity, now bearing 31. per cent. interest, shall be ex-
changed as against 82/. 10s, of these new Three-and.a-
Half per Cent. Stock. The result of which would be to
Live a present income of 21. 17s. 9d., instead of 31. No
doubt this is a very insignificant reduction. No doubt the
reduction is not a very great one, but the impression*
that even this reduction would not be readily submitted to.
Fur my own part I have no such fear; bat I anticipate
rather that it would be too exteiisieely taken. The cone-
mitts e would form a very inauequate idea of the advantage
to be derived from this proposal, if they limit it to
the 2s. 3d. per cent. These Three-and-a-Half per
Cents. would be fortified by a guarantee for the
period of not less than forty years ; and at the expi-
ration of that time instead of being at 31. defended by a
twelve months' notice, at would simply be a 3/. 10s. stock
redeemable at par by parlianneut. Although I am by no
means bold enough to assert that they would then be able
to effect that redemption, yet the proposal would lead to a
great reduction of the capital at the sad of forty years, and
a small reduction in the annual charge. But we also pro-
pose that in lieu of taking the Exchequer Bonds orthe
Threteand-a-Half per Cents., or 821. 10s. on the lea, the
parties shall have the option of taking 11()1. in Twaand-s-
Half per Cent. Stock. An objection is entertained to this
particular feature of the plan upon which I will venture to
request the attention of the committee. I wish to state as
impartially and tairly as I can the reasons which appear to
me strongly to recommend the inclusion of that feature
in the scheme, and I shall likewise state the precise
limit upon which it is to be acted upon ; as probably the
the thing to which the right hon. gentleman adverted,
when he said that an important change had been made in
the resolution. But now the objection is, that in order to
reduce the annual charge you are going to increase the
capital of the debt. (Hear, (tear.) Now this objectioe, in
my opinion, has considerable force; but it is not true that
we are goieg to increase the capital of the debt, in order to
reduce the present annual charge at the eatense of Pc*"
tsrity. It is not proposed to n.dtrze the 'Merest to two-aud-
three-quarters per cent. fur forty years, iu order that the
three per emu*. may revive with an increased eve.tal at
the end of that time. It is a proposition that will secure
an absolute reduction of a quieter per mu:. open the
annual charge, and it will place posterity under 113 disad-
vantage; because, while we shall tie tap our own hands
against redemption, we shoal leave posterity the optima of
redeeming on certain terms. But they say, you are going
to aid to the capital of the debt as much as your
ere going to save iu the interest during forty peas.
This statement Mett.v%s au arithmetic .1 error; but if at
were true it would he inconclusive; besause there would
still be the permanent saving of a quarter per cent. in the
interest after the 40 years. But the present Talus of I. e
in 1894 is, in fact, very far bel sw the value of so rienuey
of eta fur 10 years; and, therefore, it will cense a tray

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