The Express.
London, England, 1848-04-14 00:00:00

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were not in accordance with the forme of this Louse. (Rear.) The
The
SPEAKER—DidSPEAKER—Wh ehreeed.ipeltheyo,uhs:ehtehimt:
The house. therefore, is satisfied with the assurance of the Capt. GOSSET—I saw him at the Northern 5t,,,,
bar deeply regrets hreirisftrtelhfauodving used any expressions that
Don. member. (Hear, hear.) office.
The motion was then agreed to that Mr. F. O'Connor be
ordered to attend in his place forthwith. the order ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested Capt. GOSSET—No. He asked me what the eons,
that the hon. member for Cirencester ought to be restrained quinces would be it he did not attend. I told re
m that
from leaving the house for the present. (A. laugh.) would depend en the pleasure of the lieut.
THE WARWICK MURDER. The SPEAKER—You may withdraw.
Mr. EWART asked the right bon. baronet a question re- Sir G. GREY said it became his duty, in consequence of
'alive to Davis, who was convicted of the Warwick murder, the refusal of the hon. member for Nottingham, to more,— inand who lies under sentence of death. accordance with the invariable practice of the house, bra
Sir G. GREY said it was true Davis had been convicted
(or Nottingham, having been required by an order served
a member of the house had an order served on him whiach a
'upon him to attend in his place, aed not having attended,
of murder and bad teen sentenced to be banged. It was did not comply with, that Feargus O'Connor, Em , member
attylwthtemeevitdheantcea omfetweloorimeeldteicettliemgefne,rthhadhlitie iennurenceitiy.,edsup.poy,
hirtmed.
He bad in consequence taken the course that was always fol- be taken into the custody of the sergeantatent s attending
lowed in such cases, and had received for answer that this house.
two medical men's evidence had been heard at the trial but Mr. HUME asked whether the hon. member might act
failed to make the jury believe that the man was insane, and be allowed time till to morrow. (No, no.) He knew that
they came to the conclusion that he was guilty, andthe judge it had been granted in some cure.
who tried the case was of the same opinion. Sir G. GREY said that might be done if it was the ho-
w JEWISH DISABILITIES. tension of the party to obey the order of the house. In the
Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to a question from Sir R. present case the hon. member had left it to be inferred that
Teems, stated that the Jewish Disabilities 13e1 would not be he would not comply with the order. When taken into
brought on before Easter ; but he would, on the motion for custody he might appear in the house, and it would not in.
adjournment for the holidays, state the course he meant to terfere with his parliamentary duties.
take in the matter. The motion was then agreed to.
Lord LINCOLN asked the noble lord when, and for how The debate was then resumed by
long, the adjournment would take place ? Sir R. INGLIS, who said that this was not a question of
Lord J. RUSSELL said that in the actual state of the ministers' money, but a question relatiug to that church of
Crown and Government Security 13.11 he could not give any which he was a member. lie believed that ministers'
precise reply to the question, but would do so at the earliest was to be considered in the same light as church rates. The
possible opportunity was not a tax on persons, but on localities, and therefore it
CROWN AND GOVERNMENT SECURITY. was not to he considered as a tax on protestants or Roma'
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the house do meet at catholics. With regard to the statement that there would
twelve o'clock tomorrow (this day) to proceed with this net be the present destitution in Ireland but for the existents
bill in committee. of the established church, he beggedto say that no persomeon-
MIN ISTEBS' MONEY (IRELAND). tributed so largely to relieve that destitution an the menthols
Mr. FAGAN in bringing forward his motion on this sub- of the protestant church. This was not a question of 12,0001,
ject said it had already been brought under the notice of a year, but a question of principle, and it was in that light
former parliaments in the years 1842-3-4 and .5 by his hon. it should be viewed by the house. (Hear, hear.) The
friend 'Mr. Serjeant Murphy. There were eight cities in question was whether the established church was to be re-
Irelan•l subject to the:payment of miaistets' money, red as mined, and he maintained that it was not competent foe
the greater proportion of those who paid that tax were them to decide upon that question, aa it was a part of the
Roman catholics, it was felt to be a very grievous compact entered into at the time of the union that it should
imposition, and also humiliating and vexatious. be upheld. (Heat.)
But as the exercise of the municipal franchise was Sir G. GREY said that there was a practical grievance in
by the existing law made to rest upon the payment of the present case, for which a remedy ought to be found.
ministers' money, the Roman catholic in the eight towns (Hear, hear.) Both the receivers and the payers of minis-
where it was exacted were obliged to pass under the yoke, ter' money were anxious that some remedy tinted be pro
else to forfeit their municipal rights. There was a substitute vided. The government of the right hon. baronet (Sir
to be found for it in the Irish Church Temporalities Act, R. Peel) agreed, in 1811, to a motion similar to the present
which had relieved Ireland from the payment of church one ; but no remedy had been prepared, and the present to.
rest to the amount of 50,0001., whilst the whole amount vernment were likewise nut prepared with one. Both the
of ministers' money collected did not exceed 14,0001. Having hon. gentleman, the member for the University of Dublin
read the opinion of Lord Stanley, strongly condemnatory of (Mr. Hamilton), and the hon. member for the city of Cork,
the tax the hon. member preposed an a substitute the appli' asked for an inqeiry. Ile saw no substantial objection to en
cation of the surplus of the fund in the hands of the acted- inquiry for ascertaining if a remedy could be found. The
astical commissioners for Ireland, which he contended hon. member for the University. of Dublin ob-
would amply answer all the purposes fulfilled by this jetted to any terms which would imply a foregone
most obnoxious tax. He would propose also that the 40,0001. conclusion that the substitute far ministers' money
now due to the government by the commissioners should be should conic from the funds of the thelesiastiod
remitted to them, as an assistance in carrying out the object commissioners of Ireland. He would propose the addition of
he had in view. He trusted that his proposal would receive general terms, which he hoped would be satisfactory to
the attention of the house. He admitted that it had refer- the hon. gentleman. The wards which he proposed
once to only a small item; but he believed that its removal were " and to inquire whether any other, and what lunch
would do great good in appeasing the feelings of the people might be rendered available for the purposes to which minis.
of Ireland, and convincing them that their affairs were not tend money was now applied." lie hoped the house would
considered wholly unworthy the attention at the imperial agree to the motion belore it, with the addition of thous
parliament. The hon. member concluded by moving " That were..
this house will, on Tuesday next, resolve itself into a Mr. HAMILTON had no objection to the proposed adds
com-
mittee, to take into consideration the act 17 and 18 Charles tion.
11., c. 7, inteuled 'An act for provision of ministers in Mr. REYNOLDS was of opinion that thie question should
cities and corporate towns, and making the church of St. be considered as one of pounds, shillings, and pence without
Andrew's, in the suburbs of the city of Dublin, preservative mixing up with it the disagreeable and obnoxious one of
for ever,' with the view to the repeal of so much thereof as either protestant or catholic ascendancy. lie ob.erted to
relates to the provision of ministers in cities and cerporate ministers' money, on the grounds that Roman catholics and
towns, and to provide from the ecclesiastical revenues of Ire- presbyterians were compelled to pay for the support of a
land a substitute in lieu thereof." church from which they dissented. This was a source of
Sir W. SOMERVILLE Raid that the subject which his 1 great discontent in Ireland, acid brought the established
hon. friend had brought under the attention of the house church in that country into great discredit. lie thought
Was one which no doubt excited considerable attention in that a substitute for ministers' money could be derived from
Ireland. It bad been several times brought under the con- the surplus funds in the hands of the Irish ecclesiastical
sideration of parliament, and several successive secretaries commissioners. He denounced the tax as one of gross in-
for Ireland had Fought to find a substitute for the tax, but, equality, and one which his catholic and protestant conste
up to the present time, without success. The protestant tuents were equally desirous of wishing abolished.
clergy themselves were most anxious to find means of abolish- Mr. MONSON hoped. the hon. member for the city of
ing ministers' money, and seemed bad submitted schemes Cork would persevere with his motion. The abuse against
for the purpose. He (Sir W. Somerville) had given the which that motion was directed was one of the most flagrant
subject his most serious attention, and had come to the con- and mischievous nature. The tax was a tax upon improve.
elusion that, to simply abolish the tax would be, not to meat, and would not be tolerated in England.
serve the poor. but to put money into the pockets of the Mr. NAPIER said tho real question was whether a por-
rich owners of house property in the various towns of Ireland. tion of the church property is Ireland was to be altogether
Earl St. Germans had moved for certain returns, which were abolished. The motion was a direct attack upon the church
in preparation, and which, when ready, would, he expected, be establishment in Ireland.
an efficient guide on this moat intricate subject. lie was MR. F. O'CONNOR.
inclined to support the proposal of his hon. friend the mem- The Sergeant-at-Arms here appeared at the bar of the
her for the University of Dublin for a select committee, as he house, and informed the house that Mr. F. O'Connor
thought that, on a subject of such intricacy, it would be a awaited the pleasure of the house in custody.
means of eliciting much useful information. If a committee Sir 0. GREY moved that Mr. F. O'Connor be discharged
were appointed, he should attend it with a sincere desire to out of the custody of the Sergeeneat-Arnie, in order that he
bring the matter to a successful issue. (Hear, hear.) might attend in his place in the house.—Ordered.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said that the right hon. baronet Mr. F. O'Corrteou having assumed his place,
having assented to the appointment of a select committee Tile SPEAKER addressed him in the following terms:
rendered it unnecessary that he should trouble the house at " Mr. Feargus O'Connor, the house having been given to
any length. There could be no doubt that it was a subject I understand that expressions fell from you, previous to your
loudly calling for legislative interference. Even the protest- leaving the house, which least the house to conclude an inten-
ant clergy themselves were most anxious that an equitable tion on your part to take hostile proceedings against another
mode of abolishing the tax could he found. One way in hon. member of this house in consequence of certain words
which it had become a great hardship was from the change which fell from him, I have to express a hope that you will
which time had effected in the value of house propene- in be able to assure the house that you have no such intention.
the Nish towns. In many, what had once been the fashion- It is my duty to inform you, that since you left the house,
able quarter was now the poorest, while the saleable value- the hon. member for Cirencester use intimated to the house
tion of the houses remained as high as ever. He bad thought that it was not his intention, in the expressions which
it desirable that a committee should be appointed to inquire escaped him, to make use of any language not sanctioned by
into the operation of the existing law, and to report whether parliament. (Hear.) Had I heard the expressions whit
any and what amendment could be made in it. The right have created the apprehension to which I now refer, I should
hon. gentleman said that his (Mr. Hamilton's) amendment at once have felt it my duty to interpose. As it is I con-
did not go far enough ; he had, however, no objection to the eider it my duty to call upon the hon. member for Cirencee
inquiry being extended to any point that did not involve the ter to repeat in your presence the explanation which he
abolition of the tax until some substitute wan provided from made after you had left the house. (Hear.)
which the incomes of the Irish clergy might be made up to Mr. CRIPPS —I think that no man can feel I should
their present amount. The hon. gentleman who had made have heard what I considered to be an imputation upon the
the motion had suggested the surplus funds of the ecclesiastical committee of which I am a member, without something of
commission es the substitute, but it should be remembered the excitement which, I will admit, I tapes ienced. (Hear,
that those funds were already appropriated in:providingchurch hear) The question under discussion was, moreover, one
accommodation, glebe houses, and augmenting small livings in which I feel a deep interest. If, however, anything that
in this country, and looking at the large number fell from me under this excitement exceeded the limits which
of applications' it was not likely that thou funds should be observed in the language of one gentleman to
would be sufficient to meet these demands —at another, or the limits of parliameatary debate, I deeply TS-
least for a long time to come—much lees to provide gret it. (Cheers.)
for the deficiency which the abolition of ministers' money Me. F. O'CONNOR said : Mr. Speaker, I beg fully to
would occasion in the incomes of the Irish clergy, those in• exculpate you from any gunmen even of a noon
comes in Dublin and Cork being almost wholly derived from performance of your duties. The words I made use of Wen
that source. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving as these : that I had three d'ities to perform, oar to the house,
an amendment " That a 'eke committee be appointed to the second to the committee, and the third to myself. That
consider and report upon the state and operation of the laws as regarded the house, I hoped the house would believe me
respecting mis.utera' money in Ireland, and to report eche. when I said I would not be a willing party to any delusion
ther any and what amendments in those laws would be upou the house. (Hear, hear.) That as to the cemmittee,
expedient.' I reiterated what I had stated, that so tar from casting any
Dr. I.OWER condemned the impost of ministers' money, imputation upon them, I said, on the contrary, that I fully
on the ground that it constantly brought before the minds acquitted them of blame. This I said in words as distinct
of the people their degraded position. With regard to a sub- as man could use, and havine stated what I considered to be
stitute, it would be hard if one could not be found out of the my duty to the house and to the committee, without further
enormous revenues et the established church in Ireland, observation 1 then left the house. I am able to say,
which amounted to not less than 650,7501. a year. Seeing that having been a member of this house in Tog
that the majority of Ireland was Roman catholic, it was tempestuous times, I have never intentionally
most unjust that she should be called on to support a church fered here any personal offence to any member of
she believed to be erroneous. This was an injustice which the house. I have ever studiously avoided doing so (bear,
was not attempted to be imposed on the inhabitants of either hear); but, at the same time, I feel that I should not be
England or Scotland. worthy of a place in this house, or among gentlemen, had I
Lord BERNARD concurred with the suggestion of the suffered such observations as those directed towards me b
hon. member for Dublin University, as one calculated to the hon. member for Cirencester to pass, if not spot
tneet the case. W ith regard to the surplus funds of the cc- for, unresented. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member, ec-
clesiastical commission, it was clearly shown by the reports ever, has said, that he deeply regrets the language he meds
of that commission that the funds in their hands were wholly use of, and I for my part at once consent to forget that be
inadequate for the objects to which they had been appro. ever did make use of it. (Cheers.) lam not capable of
printed. The hon. gentleman opposite had estimated the allowing anything of the kind to rankle in my breast.
total income of the established church in Ireland at up- (Hear, hear.) I have now a higher duty to perform to my-
wards of 650,0001. ; but he believed when the present Secre- self, and to those who entrusted me with this petition, and it
tary for the Admiralty last brought the subject under the is to state, that after the unequivocal expression of opinioa
consideration of the house he showed that the revenues of on the part of the house, I shall not proceed with the notices
that church were not more than sufficient to give an average of which 1 had given notice for tom mow. (liesr,
income of 2001. a year to each clergyman. This tax was hear.) I shall leave the matter to be settled
not of modern origin—it had been established near 200 years, between the house and the government, and between the
and the houses now subject to it were built by the committee and the petition itself. lam not a mangy
will
proprietors with a full knowledge of their liability to ever permit any delusion to be practised on myor be
pay it. Its abolition would not, as was contended, confer a knowingly the means of practistng delusion on others. 1
boon on the poor occupiers, but would be merely making a cannot admit that 1 am to be answerable tor every signalure
present of so much money to the owners of the property. He which gentlemen may criticise in any peution that lam rit.
believed that, in the agitation on this question, there w quired to present to this house. It would have been morally
something more than met the eye, and that the real as
purpose impossible for me to authenticate every signature in this
was not to benefit the Irish people, but to give facilities to mense document. lam glad I did not mlow myself to be
increase the majorities of the liberal party at the municipal carried away by a similar excitement to that which urged °S
elections. (Oh.) He also thought that the object of those the hon. enemb.er for Cirencester, and I will now sit down
who were so energetic in their denunciations of the Irish repeating my assurance to the hon. member that he we in
church was to estahlieh on the ruins of that church a Roman error if he
and thou ht
ht I intended to cast any imputetion on the
catholic e•tablishment. (Cries of " No, no," from the Irish committee • ' having thus shown that there was ne
liberal members.) For himself, however, being convinced ground for his attack, I trust I have made firmer the basis
that the maintenance of the protestant establishment in Ire- en which he placed his retractation. (Cheers.)
land was the beet security for the continuance of the union Mr. NAPIER resumed his arguments ageing the modem,
and for civil and religious freedom, he should resist all such and said that in doing so he took his stand upon the Act el.
attempts. (Hear, hear.) Union, which once and irrevocably settled the questioe 01
Mr. liU DIE believed that, but for the established church ministers' money in Ireland. Every step taken in the date'
in Ireland being maintained against the wishes of so large a tion which the hon. member for Cork wished the legislatiftre
majority of the people, Ireland would not be in her present to pursue was not only a violation of the Act of Union, bat
state of destitution and disaffection. lie looked upon the was also weakening the protestant church of Ireland. het
church establishment as the chief cause of the evils of that even supposin/ ministers' money was abolished, who colt
country, and they might depend upon it. they would never be the gainers . Those who paid it now woulo not; fe,'...!.'.
have peace or content there until that church was reduced landlord would add the amount to his rent, and put ethos.
nearer to the wants of the protestant population. (Hear, pocket. (Oh.) The motion therefore was, in his opiratcsks
hear.) If the noble lord valued so highly the maintenance an unwise and impolitic and even an indefensible
of the protestant church in Ireland, why did he not pay for upon the protestant church of Ireland, and he would never
it without calling upon his catholic fellow-subjects to share consent to rt. t a
in the expense ?He was informed that this impostof minis- ?dr. SHELL could make every allowance for .
st,
tare' money bore very severely on the poorerclua of occupiers, the hon. member for Dublin University, but h cum he zed
ratted the te"
and so disgusted were many of the clergymen with this help thinking that many of his constituents reg
mode of obtaining their incomes, that many of them, as he signation of the Right lion. Fred. Shaw. It was not ree
understood, were in the habit of Calling in the aid of middle- poled by any one who had supported the motion 2 u",
mm, who paid them a certain sum, and obtained the money house to deprive any clergyman of one &Bldg of his • .
from the poor tenants as they could, often by seizure and it was not proposed even to touch the incomes of theirf:
sale (Attar goods. (Hear.) It was to be regretted that in misers ; because those clergymen were net tn.
the Irish church reform of 1833 ministers' money was not curiata. lie did not know a single Roma