The Express.
London, England, 1853-06-07 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 7, 1853.

different system had been established. One fact would
speak volumes as to the prosperity of the country under the
company's management. It was that during the last fourteen
years sixty millions of arrears of rent had been remitted to
Ike inhabitants of India. (Hear, hear.) Of the question of
public works, a most eminent civil servant had said that the
gmblic fiends were waste.' and misapplied, end that half a
Million*roperly laid out would have produoed better results
thin any they could exhibit. Having quoted the opinions
of 1112. Burke, Mr. Macaulay, and Lord Grenville, as hostile
110
- Ma of the company, the hon. and h
learned
mosher proceeded to say, that now the patronage of the
was to be taken away, but the evil was to remain.
717eri IgK
t hon. gentleman being about to take away every-
thing that was essontial to a government, allowed the coma
pony to remain as a sham with that irresponsibility which
was the oleengott incentive to tyranny. When the right
bon—member bid been told that the system of Indian
government was anomalous, he answered that our Indian
empire was itself anomalous. Why, if that were
es, it was the more necessary to get proper men
to administer the government. (Hear, hear.) But the
right hon. gentleman said that the empire was =omelette,
and therefore the government must be anomalous aim.
The right hon. gentleman was not even original in that, es
they all remembered to have seen in Boswell's "Johnson,"
w Who drives fat oxen must himself be fat." (Hear, boar,
end a laugh.) He begged of the right hon. gentleman to
pause before ha renewed the present system of government'
and if he should persevere, he (Mr. Phillimore) trusted
that he would not receive the support of the house.
Sir J. W. HOOO began by claiming the indulgence of
Hie house, upon which he should not have trespassed had
the ordinary course been adopted with respect to this bill.
But the course of the hon. member for Manchester, in not
'sly arguing against the double system of government, but
M preferring a frightful bill of indictment against the &deal-
Wanton of that government, rendered it necessary that
In should, in self-defence, trouble the house at some length.
There appeared to be some division of labour. The bon.
smother for Manchester had brought forward the indict-
ment. and the different counts were divided among other
gentbusen, and the honourable and learned gentleman
who had just sat down had taken the department of
Mw and calculation. His right honourable friend bad
urged strong and cogent reasons for immediate legisla-
tion. That was the opinion of every witness who had
been examined, and every person competent to give
en opinion, and it was use the opinion of Lord Dalhousie.
The hon. member for Manshester repudiated the authority
dLsed Delhounie, sod loud that hu authority was of no
Pohl r?dgit Ibis foe other person's. He believed that
an me list the hen. gmliessan would make such an asser-
tion. The hon. mowslior for Manchester had asked for delay
Maw a committee se the subject was sitting. That might
at Set sight appear to be a reason, but everyone who heard
the speech of the hon. gentleman knew that he did not
Wu to a tittle of the evidence of any one witness, or to any
dooseasst produced before that committee. His speech
eanieted of shreds and patches, bite which he had read in
eke pamphlets and magazines, and the evidence of witnesses
be nos before the territorial committee, bat before the
Mims committee, four years ago, over which the hon.
umber presided; he referred to periods long past, and to
Maim which occurred long ago, one so long since as
1702, sad to periods prior to the rule of the Bart ladle
Company, and when the war with Tippoo was raging.
The honourable gentleman had indulged in speede-
d.a as to how his right honourable friend had got up
his speech, and be (Sir J. W. Hogg) would speculate on
the manner in which the hon. gentleman had got up his
speech. It appeared that those with whom the bon. gen-
tleman was associated got hold of anything in any book or
pamphlet against India, they caught up the stigma and cut
it out and sent it to the hon. gentleman, who strung it all
together, and, to use a favourite expression of the be..
gentleman, that formed the "hoes poens" of the getting
up of his speech. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Lelia
was not a soled book. There was no act or pomading in
relation to India which was not public ; there was not one
rupee spent or received which was not regularly *cemented
for. Papers were published relating to every transaction;
there had been debates, committees on salt, on duties, on
cotton, on steam, and on every subject in which India was
concerned, and the aggregate of the information contained
in papers and reports tilled 63 folio volumes—and yet they
were told that India was • sealed book. (Hear.) If the
details were not known, the failure was not from the want
of means of information, bat from the want of industry in
these who had it in their power to acquire it. He did not
wish to raise alarm, but he conscientious) y believed that if
there was any delay in legislation it would spread doubt,
mistrust, and apprehension over India as to the future, and
force into mischievous activity the worst elements of inse-
curity. Therefore, whatever was the !legislation, he hoped
it would be prompt and immediate. The hon. member for
it eatheater had said truly that the main question was the
system of double government. He (Sir J. W. Hogg)
Limin that, and it was bemuse he agreed in
principle of double government, that he should
vats for the introduction of this measure. The
hes. member for Manchester had pointed out objec-
tions le a double government. A favourite expression of
BM les gentleman was that double government was a men
dais i that it caused delay and obstruction in carrying on
the gemonient ; and that there was no responsibility any-
where. He (Sir J. Hogg) would state boldly and broadly
that under the existing system the practical government of
India rested with the Court of Directors. Every measure
urinated, and must originate, with the Court of
Er lees. Divided as it was into three separate eon-
every measure pared through • committee,
It was investigated, and then was cosaidered
W Se court, after which it went to the President of the
Nod of Control who hid power to alter it. But he could
she mike alterations capriciously, but must state his res.
stes for any alteration in writing. Was not that a restraint
an the; President of the Board of Control, to prevent the
possibility of the least alteration, unless it was such 111
meld meet with support from the home and the country P
Of all the despatches that finally passed the Court of Direc-
tors net do per cent. were altered by the Psoldest of the
Mudd Control, and those alterations Win fiddly verbal.
It wee toe that in what were odd " P.C." despolies, or
this. ea which then had bees prnioneommunioadess, the
alemations wore ; Fame NM dhy per ant.
The holy whichregulated' the hedge dies of a state
mod nemiesally have paraissost mind and sod operate
lordly i that was the use is regard to this oustey t and
that was the um is UHL The he.. gentleman ought to
hoes that the bathe of the meet imeiwittee were ended
N=.lz=4, ,7", "avail= tar:W.6.opm
y of 34 with seek mottle, those being mat-
ters remikkg impish es/ maw with a view to
the publie . To base mother system Om that which
sential;smis
prevailed wool be en moo If the greatest embarramiest
to her Ildeety's goomment, ad would Mdses to a cm-
teaks piiipaily °MINA ell a• public iatessele. The great
boasit—sod here he me pwNett the onindes tapes the
Weeded and highest memde--arisisg boa the arable
geormient of Uhl our this. that it Mgt the goveramest
of
,liedia has hots polhied him. (Hoer, Um.) Hy a dos•
lid germanised ahme odd sash a result be seemodiebod t
of that be was Milled. Wee them my other tido of
the BOW desolation goosed without pdilled bin ?
kllonotherity of Lord lifsebessogh had loses
to whit hide milisesmost. But,
wee the ohams of he recalled Governor.
led ia oggodies to * Om wea to be offered
the of Lod Illeshmugh hefts he woe ap-
rated Cismoonwheand (The ben Wind poloodd
meets die miles gives by lard Men brourn is VIA
as Whisk be spoke in high Mon of the thea asinthodin.
pond do emir, and wordsl the Cod of Bfraeliss,
red dialed to say change.] -Wdl. this woo he warm to
the ben.: man's (Mr. Bright%) mom And the hew
My esonblog of nerdy of bodes and brisiren. (Hear,
bor.) Seim end boon I Is wend have boss Ma-
shhad at my mu* of that beam miring at beakers
sad booms t hot sob a neer cams with the least grace
from thee. b. member hr Manchester. (" Hear, hear,'
sad krighter.) The Mostar' were also told that their
p ahem. had bees abused. His answer was a refer-
ee* to Lord Elleabseough's opinion in 1833, Lord
Elienborough having then declared that the patronage
of the directors was most equally distributed. But
he would not step there : be would, on this occa-
sion, reply to the general attacks which had been made
an Ohio mkt, and, amen others, he would include the
hnZllof Captain Meemegeee pamphlet. He held in
:1 return laid Wm. the committee ; he would
sokr to no domande while bad not been laid been the
mosaittee ; every bet smslier could go to the original
mob for his anuenesse; but he would like to know Where
thch ware es hunt he the ben—enter of the hon. member for
Ztsinkestat f This was a roars of the results of the =W-
WI patronage, and has this it ansarO that only one-third
et tie whole military polinage of India went to the sons
of Orilia milifasy seilisie. (Hear, hear.) As to the
she ow& dist was whet really was valuable, the
wall amendado fs rehtstion of the position
Yilitirbes. woke IN desshisior. There had been 688
dell appebtmentishise link; be Omsk this from the records
of
the Isillahosee—nd of them there had been given
thatithe elm ad pissik authors. ad the relati roe of
ljos of ameba, lit t to the me of military servants,
110 ; and the mikes, HA hail boos given generally and ins
dihrestly em mug the mod= of misty. This
be thought wo a Slalligill moor to the &serge
of Weir dherfkilha of phoney. The binsinable
member be llembeitir had also referred a good
deal to the vest madermais of the civil service. He held
in kis hand as &hotrod ea this paint, sad he would tell
the house the &vermin. The avenge emehtmenb m five
years' service, 4701. par annum. Oa he um mpg net
'media' Pik
_9IU. Ihisedisi ten years and set snood.
izZs eLI. t and dm. Moo year, 2,84.4 con.
shwas and the noses involved is the
kit fhb muds. g onaddedsg also the ability
211.brimillySil the deers
deersdeerswhlsh eharadided the
1111111111. NM k•semot the gown Om their
solo Oustry, Olinda the service, be omilmled
hit Om emoluments WWI as the whole taker: to the
esempaillas sumbroals to the eserespondlig stations in
lido . (Hash holm) Vairabtedly, hewer, this
me alMmllea 4111 tend'. Ito 11.11•1111101 not worked
ivill duo was awe Swift ittsh the Minatitution.
He siikliiiii that the MO puha the system, and in
peof of Hid dhoti imilmbi the hoses by imitating the
lon, memanilt ibrifilighinene aid entering into minute de.
tails, he wedl PIA* MS Wm; satisfactory figures.
Then had boo • gori isemilla sr territory since 1833.
The arms of thit somilin omennted to 267,013 square
mike; siasequeler, II of 8,672,606. He gave
IMO Ina and been he wished to an-
the all the increased re-
ins. had arises bum ineroased territory. In 1834 the
am mum wissjini. In 1861 the gross revenue
Insitymmt, an increase of nearly 9,000.000!.
Row amok of eat 9, arose from the contributions of
sew territory ? Why, no less than 2,000,0001. i but he
would take the aggregate at 2,000,0001., andhe would then

ha to account how and whence the increased 7,000.0301.
was derived. But it might be said that the increased re-
venue was get from increased taxation. Nu such thing,
however. Many taxes, since 1833, had been entirely
abolished; and a large number had been considerably re-
clean. The export duty had been removed from cotton,
coffee, and other materials ; and the transit duties, which used
to be a large item in the accounts, had been entirely done
away with. Then, the salt tax had been reduced 25 per
cent. g and thus it was shown that increased ue had
gone on with decreased taxation. (Hear, hear.) Well, if
this was so, if they were to take in India the tests applied
to every other country, was he not justified in concluding
that India had prospered (Hear, hear.) There were,
however, other tests not to be overlooked. The house had
heard a good deal of declamation to the effect that
the land in India was going out of cultivation ; that the
land was falling back into ;eagle. What were the facts?
In the North Western provinces of Madras, and in Bengal,
the revenue from land had been, in 1833, 9,115,4121. ; and
in 1831, it was 12,075,4791.; showing an increase of re-
venue from the same territory of 2,960,0671. The increase
of revenue from opium, in the same period, was 2,305,6011. ;
from salt, 86,3751. ; from customs, 206,4281. ; making alto-
gether on increase of 5,557,4741. ; leaving an increase of
revenue derived from other sources of 1,442,6261. ; which
made up the sum of 7,000,0001., to which he had referred.
After such facts as these, ought the house to hear any more
of the misery, and destitution, and backwardness of India ?
(Hear, hear.) It might be said all this was artificial pros-
perity, that there had been a starving people notwith-
standing the flourishing revenue. He would take the
tents illustrating that point. Take the imports
into India : In 1834.5, 6,154,1291.; in 1849-
50, 13,696,6361. He would like to know in what other part
of the globe such a progress was to be traced. Then, the
exports: in 1834.5, 8,188,1611.; in 1849450, 18,283,5431. ;
being an increase of 10,000,0001. in 20 years. This was as-
tounding; the figures exceeded anything he could have
conceived. (Hear, hear.) And this had all been accom-
plished by India herself, and by the policy of the court of
directors ; not only without the aid of the English govern-
ment and of the English parliament, but in
spite of obstacles presented by parliament. (Hear,
hear.) Year after year, for long years, the East
India Company had petitioned that house in vain
to do justice to India by the removal of discriminating
duties. (Hear, hear.) Cotton goods, for instance, had gone
to India en a duty of 5 per cent. from this country ; but a
duty of 62 per cent. was levied, as a prohibition, against
Indian manufactures. (Hear, hear.) In vain, for years,
had the East India Company demanded a fair and equitable
commercial tariff from this country in regard to sugar and to
rum. Only the other day had they got those duties
equalised ; and what had been the testate ? In 1835,
the year before the duty was equalised, 107,476 cwts.
of sugar were imported from India into Great Britain.
What was the ge imports into this country from
India in 1861-2 ? 1,390,188 cwt. If they had had that ad-
vantage a Log time back they would have had a cones-
ponding increase ; but they (the House of Commons) kept
it back. Again, there was the ge importation of rum
before the equalisation 128,000 gallons. Banco the equali-
sation it bad been 685,000 gallons. He left out the odd
figures. He believed his right hon. friend gave them the
Increase of cotton. Well, now, in 1806, during
the time of the monopoly of the calumniated body of which
he had the honour to be a member, in 1806 the exports
from India amounted to 1,460,0001. in vales; and in 1814,
the duty being then 62} per cent., there were imported into
Great Britain from India 967,652 piano( calico and muslin.
With silks and taflhas be would not trouble the house, but
the increase was equal. He remembered on a former occa-
sion, when presenting one of the petitions in that house
which were presented in vain, he heard an account of the
misery and desolation in provinces in which the people and
their fathers before them had maintained themselves
by their industry in the manufacture of cotton,
and from the exercise of which they had been
driven, not by competition, for he admitted that
steam power in this country would have that result ; but he
heard of the misery and desolation of provinces, particu-
larly in the Deccan. And, observe, it was not in India as
it was in this country, where even a handloom weaver, if
he lost employment as • , could turn his attention to
something else. Not so in India. In that country a trade
descended from father to son for hundreds of years. Trades
were mixed up with religion ; and if they took a trade
from a man, they took from him that by which alone he got
his living, and desolation throughout these provinces
was the melancholy result. They then never heard of
the lamentation ; there was none of the philanthropy
which now prevailed. Well, now, observe the case with
India. Had England prospered ? England bad not equally
advanced with India. In 1814, which was the first year of
what, as regarded India, was nicknamed free trade, when
everything from England could go to India and nothing
from India could come to England—(" Hear, hear," and
laughter)—the British cotton manufactures exported to the
East Indies amounted to 109,4871.; in 1849-50, the
last year he had, they had increased to 4,421,9201.
Had Blanchester any reason to complain? (Cheep.)
Well, had the shipowners any reason to complain? In
1834-5 the British shipping amounted to 220 vessels amount-
ing to 108,870 tons. In 1849-60 the vessels had increased
to 425 and the tonnage to 2.32,153. Both the number of
vessels and the amount of tonnage bad almost, without a
fraction, doubled in the twenty years. Where was that to
be equalled ? He should like any gentleman to name any
other part of the world where the increase had been as
great. Even Amities, where the hen. member for Man-
chester had carried his imagination, had not increased
equall7. The hon. gentleman could not help referring to
America. " Oh," said the hon. member, "if India bad
fallen into the hands of America how happy would it have
been." Well, he would tell the hon. gentleman the result.
The result would have been that the whole people of India
would have been slaves. Slavery had been abolished by
British rule.

Mr. BRIGHT rose and attempted to speak, but his voice
was drowned amid loud cries of " Order, order."
Sir J. W. HOGG proceeded. He did not mesa to say
that the hon. gentleman wished India to be under America,
but the hon. gentleman said if India had been under Ame-
rica there would have been prosperity there which did not
exist now.

Mr. iflflGHT—Traversed by roads.
Sir J. W. HOGG said he did not want to have a discus-
sion about phrases. The point of the hon. gentleman, if he
had any point, was that India would have been more pros-
perous under the Americans. He (Sir J. W. Hogg)
wanted to show that India would not have been better
under America, and he said that perhaps they would not
have had slavery abolished, and slavery was now abolished.
Well, he had given them the export; from Great
I Britain, and he would now give them the ex-
port. from India. In 1834-5 they amounted to
4262,3811., in 1849.50 to 7,678,98 W., an increase from two
millions to seven, omitting the odd figures, upwards of
three times the amount. That showed how hard it was to
please the hon. gentleman. The hon. member said there
had been a great increase of exports, but that the whole or
the greater portion of the increase consisted of cotton
pods. That was a funny complaint to come from him, but
he (Sir J. W. Hogg) admitted that in the very breath in
which the hon. gentleman made that complaint he assigned
a reason for it. He said soden were very cheap, and
that the little the native raquisri he Na pement was pur-
chased for a trifle, and Mentheeter mud it cheap.
Ile (Sir J. W. Hogg) did not towpath of that, but
when that was explained the hew gentleman still
was not satisfied, and never would be. (Cheers.)
He believed in his ormedemes if anybody could inflict
ea the hew gentleman the haw of welshed= sad con-
tentweed be would be the dewed mass fre enleMmee. The
bus. member could not asks say mese about imports
and exports is India, but he said, " ase what we send
to the Brazils." He (Sir J. W. Hogg) thought the House of
Commons and the member for Manchester might be satis-
fied if they dealt with the finances of India, and the finances
of this country, and they might leave the Brazils to settle
their own affairs themselves. He had now told them
shortly and chiefly the result of their finances, without
going into detail. Ile bad got the details, but he had given
the result during 20 years. The next thing was what was
their state in 1850.1. At the very time when there was
every temptation to put a good face on it, and they had a
great anxiety, as:well u interest to maks their affairs ap-
pear well, what was the sketch estimate of 1851.2 ? There
was a deficit, but the result was a surplus of half a million,
and that surplus after paying the expenses of the Burmese
war. But were they going backwards; what was the re-
sult of the present war ? What was the sketch estimate of
1852.3? The hon. member for Manchester was perfectly
correct in the amount he gave of the . The sketch
estimate gave a total for the current year of 22,22,82,626
rupees that was 29,228,2821. The charge amounted to
26,317,5264 showing a surplus of 2,910,7261. (ftheers.)
But remember that India paid, and always had paid,
• heavy tribute to this country. But after allow-
ing for that tribute the estimated surplus for
the current year was nearly half a million, in-
cluding the estimate for the Burmese war. He said a little
while ago that if they prepared figures in different cycles.
unless there sou something consecutive, that way of patting
them would confound anybody, and, above all, an assembly
to whom they were addressed. The hon. member asked
whet was the cue in 1835, again after five years, and again
five years after that ; but he did not conclude, be admitted,
with the extravagant statement made by another hon. mem-
ber when he spoke of the bankruptcy of India. His idea of
bankruptcy must have been a whimsical one. When the
boa. member for Manchester spoke of the increase of the
debt what was the use of it ? No we at all. If they
had shown simultaneously with an increase of debt
an increase of
intelligible about it. The revenue had increased in pro-
portion, notwithstanding all the wars, and the proportion
of debt to revenue was greater than at any period the hon.
member had dwelt upon, as he thought, so triumphantly.
The revenue is now 29,000,0001. Ia 1834, the total debt,
including the bond debt, was 38,086,0001. Now, in round,
figures, it was 60.000,0001. There they had an increase in
twenty years of 15,344,0001. The Increase in revenue was
in an infinitely greater proportion. In 1839, after some
iears of peace, the debt was only 31,900,0001., and the
ncome from 1839 to the present time was 18,812,0001.
He mentioned that to show what India could do
in time of peace and what India suffered in time of war.
But who was responsible for the war in 1839—was it the
court of directors ? (Mr. Bright: No.) No, said the hon.
member for Manchester ; he cleared the court of directors.
(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bright.) He believed they dis-
approved it, but if that were so, if the minister of the
crown were responsible for that war and for all the wars,
was it not a strange mode of remedying the evil to take
away the power from the court altogether, and to give it to
that power which caused the want (Cheers.) The
Affghan war was not an Indian war; it arose for Euro-
pean purposes, and it ought to have been defrayed out of
European resources. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bright.)
Well, then, restore the 16 millions that it cost—(laughter)---
seaters that 16 millions, and then call on them as loudly as

they pleased to diminish taxes and to i ce s public
works. But oppressed with debt, not oppressed, because
they could not say a man was oppressed by debt who had
the means ot plying, and what was a debt which did cot
absorb two cue income. The Duke of Wellington was
gone, his voice was no Idiger beard in the walls of parlia-
ment, no longer would he guide the councils of his
sovereign and his country, but his wisdom would long sur-
vive, and he would read to them what the Duke
of ellington said when a question similar to that raised
by the hon. member for Manchester was discussed. The
duke said, I will not presume to say how many millions
of people you govern. You have an annual revenue of
twenty millions, and notwithstanding all the wars you have
been engaged in, its debt at this moment amounts only to
forty millions, being no more than two years' revenue. I
do not say that such a debt is desirable ; but at the same
time I do say it is a delusion on the people of
this country to tell them it is a slur on the
proceedings of a government which has carried on
the afar/ of the government with so much success."
He had told them the cost of the Burmese war.
ft great deal had been said about whit would be the ex-
pense of that war. At first it was said the cost would be
150,000/. a month. The cost was 30,0001. When the far-
ther troops were sent, the estimated cost was 50,0001. a
month. lie believed the extra cost would not much exceed
100,0001. lie held in his hand the estimate for the Bur-

mese war for 1852-3. The estimate was a little above
000,0001, the whole expense of the Burmese war. The
hon. member made one complaint about the debt. Ile said
they borrowed money to pay their dividends
in England. Suppose they did ; surely ho did not
complain if they had not money to pay their divi-
dends, that they should borrow it. They liked
to be honest. But the hon. member was quite wrong, as
the dividends were the first charge on the Indian revenues ;
and if the dividends were the first charge upon 20 millions,
how could they say they borrowed money to pay the
dividends ?

Mr. BRIGHT—I said you borrowed as much as would
pay the dividend.
Sir J. W. HOGG—They did not borrow money to pay
the dividend. The hon. member said it for effect ; but his
desire was to take away the effect and to state the thing
simply and in an unglossed manner. It had been said
why were the dividends a first charge, and why
should they be paid out of the territorial revenue ?
He said it was fair, because when the compromise
was made it was estimated, but the amount of commercial
assets spent in government expenses far exceeded any
amount that would be caused by the payment of dividends.
On this point ho would read to them a considerable autho-
rity. Whea something similar was said in the House of
Lords, Lord Bllenborough said the East India Company
gave to India, to its territorial revenue, in diminution of
its charges, a great part of the result of its commercial assets.
He thought India had no reason to complain of that.
The hon. and learned gentleman had said his right hon.
friend had glossed over the question of land tenures. He
(Sir J. Hogg) did not think so. It was true his right hon.
friend had not gone into all the details of those tenure',
and God forbid he should. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.)
But the hon. and learned gentleman had made the most
extraordinary complaint, not of the Court of Directors or of
the local government of India, but of that which was the
whole system of Asia The hon. gentleman said, " Why
you derive your whole revenue from land." To be sure
they did; and it was the custom not of India only, but
throughout the earth—(bear, hear) —and the hon. gentle-
man must recollect that one of the political economists he
had himself quoted said that this system of drawing the
revenue from land was the best system of revenue in the
whole world, for under that people in effect paid no taxes,
the revenue being collected in the shape of rent. He had
heard and read much of late about tenures in India, but he
had heard no single argument nor received a single suggestion
which he did not find more powerfully put forward in the
minutes and reports of the government and public servants
at the very time that this tenure was formed. It had been
the fashion, he knew, to say that Lord Cornwallis settled
this question of tenures rashly, and that he sacrificed the
rights of the ryots. That was not true Whatever might
be the opinion as to Lord Cornwallis's acts they were not
taken without due consideration ; and certainly the rights
of the ryots had not been sacrificed, for no ryot could be re-
moved from his holding while he paid a fixed government
rent. But then it was said there was an annual revision,
and the consequence was that the ryot did not know in any
one year what he would have to pay in the next. It was
true there was an annual revision ; but the object of that
was that the ryot should not be called upon to pay
for land which, from any cause, was not cultivated, and
that allowance might be made in cases of drought
and other circumstances which occasioned him loss. It had
been asked by the hon. and learned gentleman why not
extend the north-western system to Madras and Bombay ?
Let the hon. and learned gentleman ask Sir G. Clerk, Mr.
Halliday, and others, who had spent the greater portion of
their lives in India. Had the hon. gentleman the experience
of those authorities who were asked the question before
the committee he would not have asked the question, but
it was knowledge stone that made a man conscious of his
ignorance. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PHILLIMORE begged the hon. gentleman's par-
don. (Order, order.) He wished to explain. (Order,
order.) He had not asked that question.
Sir J. HOGG—If the lion. gentleman did not say so, he
had misunderstood him, but he had taken down his words,
and certainly understood him to ask the question why. the
north-west system was not extended to Madras and Bom-
bay.
Mr. PHILLIMORE—What I did say was that it was a
proof that the old system was wrong, inasmuch as they
adopted a different one in the new proviaces, but I never
dreamt of saying anything so absurd as that the north-
western system should be extended to Bombay and
Madras. _ _

Sir J. HOOD contended there was a system of revision
in connexion with this tenure. By the law of India every
Hindoo family was • joint family, and the tenure was joint,
and when the man died each member had a right to his un-
divided share, so that the tendency of the tenure
was always to subdivision, but this was • system which
while it was well adapted to a rude state of
society, was not suited to a more advanced stage of
civilisation. The hon. member for Manchester referred to
canon. Upon that subject he would touch very briefly, for
there had been a committee over which the hon. member
presided, of which he (Sir J. Hogg) was a member, and in
the report of which he was happy to say he, together with
the hon. member for Manchester, fully concurred. That
report described the exertions which the India Company
had made to advance the cultivation of cotton in India,
sometimes with more and at others with less success ; but
after all the question of the cultivation of cotton in India
was one of market and of price. (Hear, hear.) The In-
dians cultivated cotton for their own use and for exporta-
tion to Chins, but they did not ship it to this country be-
came it was well known that the market here de-
pended upon the goodness or badness of the crop of
the United States. If the United States crop was
bad there was • market here for Indian cotton,
but if the United States crop was good there was not. If
it was really desired to encourage the growth of cotton in
India, why did they not make the market certain, as was
done in the case of indigo, the grower of which knew before-
hand, that if he laid oat a certain quantity of land in the
growth of indigo, he was sure to be paid for his labour, and
the charge of cultiration. Sir T. Munroe, at the bar of
that house, had said that the cultivation of grain in India
was more profitable than that of cotton. Then the ques-
tions of income and revenue were inseparably connected
with the question of the cultivation of cotton, but if in place
of debating and discussing the subject in that house Man-
chester intelligence and 3laaehwter capital once found its
way to the cotton growing distriets in the neighbourhood
of Bombay and other pens of India, and ensured • fair price
to the cultivator, cotton would be cultivated in precisely
the same way that indigo was. At the same
time it must not be lost sight of, that until
they had • railway to Bombay, the met of bringing down
the cotton to the plam of shipment would operate to a con-
siderable extent against its successful cultivation. The
hon. member for Manchester also said that as they bad
heard nothing of the condition of the 'yen in Bengal,
they were doubtless worse offthan they were in Bombay,
and he founded his statement on the reports of Indian
newspapers. He would refer the hon. gentleman to an
authority of the same description, the Calcutta Review,
which in a recent article said that what struck the eye on
passing through Bengal was the °inherent fruitfulness of
the soil, the total absence of anything like want or famine,
end the comfort and contentment of the villagers. (Hear.)
Then the honourable gentleman dwelt on the salt tax.
That was an onerous tax no doubt, but it was the
only tax the people paid. The honourable gentleman said
the duty had increased, the revenue had diminished,
and the consumption had fallen off. But how was it pos-
sible for the consumption to have fallen off while the reve-
nue had increased with a reduced duty? (Hear, hear.)
But the hon. gentleman might have informed himself better
on the subject had he taken the trouble ; for the same mail,
and he in the same envelope, that brought the
paper o the 14th of April, from which he quoted, brought
the number of the same paper of tke 21st; and there, under
an article similarly beaded—the consumption of salt—the
editor wrote, " It has been pointed out to us that our re-
turns of last week on the consumption of salt contain a
mistake so serious as to vitiate all the conclusions
we drew from them. (" Hear," and laughter.) Yet such
were the foundations on which the hon. member for Man-
chester founded his speech. The next point raised by the
hon. gentlemen he would not dwell upon, as they world
have a discussion embracing the revenue raised from opium
—the manner in which it was raised—the cultivation of the
poppy—and the morality of the opium trade. They had
already had a report on that subject, and they gathered
from that document the fact that a very large revenue
was drawn from the cultivation and export of opium, and
their belief that the same amount could not be drawn from
a less objectionable source. It was reported tbat the culti-
vation was about to be legalised in China; and should that
report turn out to be true, it must affect the
finances of India considerably. This ought to be
considered before they talked of transferring India
wholly over to the crown, because when that was done
they would have to take upon themselves all the debts, the
guarantees, and other liabilities for which the India Com-
pany are now liable. He apprehended that, should that
event take place, and the from the export of opium
cease, there would be but little chance of proem' ina very
rapidly with public works and improvements. He did not
know if the hon. member for Manchester saw the papers
laid on the table at the period of the China war. If be
had he would have found the question of political economy
touched upon—amongst others by Commissioner Lion, who
pointed out the impropriety of the Chinese importing opium
while so many districts of China were suited to its cultivation.
Much had been said with respect to public works, and he
would, therefore, state briefly the result of what had been
done. There was the great public trunk road from Cal-
cutta to Peshawar, 1,423 Who in length, and costing

1,m;0/. a mile. There was the trunk road to Agr sn ,s
there was the road from Madras to Bombay, which
cost
a million. In all there were 3,159 miles, the estimated
nearly acolgettebde,witornid
of which was 2,166,0001., and the estimated repairs 99 "-
A great deal of all this had already been made, and the rest
was in progress. Of canals there was the East' ,;
ke ei
side
hanrao, d saw,h_b:ea:ait
at
West Jutuna, SSO miles. and the Ganges 810 17
which bad cost upwards of a million agand
half, of which 780,0001. had already been expended. Then-
was likewise another canal 4SO miles long, which cost half
Ron.
memberf end thefor P.m.ortemeasoniedtcoleoir
inefstatt:ohrf:
seutexihepweiß: o dof COR
a million. In Madras there were works of irrigation i
the only rivers to which they could be applied, the Gods.
tvheory,mthoe Gi.,;vmeerry,
rainveclnth.e..Krevistna. oa
for
ielß:agnh holding
te who
r.
stahnoceethunipeodu theN othwi,rwd,htehne lifers
g I etCixtlep:een cdwolouriprskseallnoweyle:rhWeei olt.l mentioned
oertaendde
had done. Ile went back to hilt favourite credit toss
what
sh trot,rightat tho
they
faction, nor would he
ar
:a member
thateafr: thhbeie:rholoc
Manchester
Gsgtreeenrattl
recommended
im79n112 ,consadni,mdd
test
tbabyt t thata(in a report
(Loud laughter.)
a.
mr c(1 r s
had just been aroused from his slumbers—(great laughter)
—wouldl79S2ir. jr
VehieUilt h:enG.liGikoinde
the government of 18.33 responsible for the omissions
Certainly, the hon. member could not be accused of want
of candour. (Laughter.) It would not much strengthent
his (Sir J. W. liogg's) statement to refer to what had been
done in the times of the Maliontedan dynasties; fur he did
not think there was much weight in " te-quoque" erg"
meats. Bat if he were to tell the house the details of
Mahomedan rule, he should perfectly appal every
hon. gentleman that heard him with the recital of the
miseries which had been endured by the people of Indite
The Mahomedan rulers certainly bad occasionally indulged
in public works, but they were only such as would gratify
their own vanity or minister to their own luxury. (gear,
hear.) If they made a road, it was only because there was
about to be some royal progress, cc because it would lead to
some royal hunting ground ; when that progress had
ceased, and that bunt was over, then those works fell into
decay. (Cheers.) There were temples, and tombs, and
mausoleums and palaces constructed enough, but there were
no works of public utility. (Hear, hear.) If the home
asked him for his authority, he would refer them to the
book of Sir Henry Elliott, wherein it was shown that these
Mahometlan works of which they had heard so much were
perfectly fabulous. (Hear, hear.) The next question to
which he (Sir J. W. Hogg) would advert was ose upon
which the hon. member for Leominster had most dwelt,
namely, the administration of justice in India, and the em.
ploymeat of natives in that capacity. Now the tact was that
the natives of India decided 90 per cent. of all the original
civil suits, and reckoning even appeals, 96 per cent. (Cheers.)
And yet it was said that the Court of Directors had not
honestly carried out the act of 1831. (liear, hear.) Thee
again, with respect to the rerenoes, there were deputy col-
lectors and deputy magistrates extensively employed at
high salaries; whereas, previous to 1834, there were scarcely
any natives holding situations of that kind. (Hear, hear)
The fact was the act eflB3l had been carried out cautious)),
and therefore successfully, because if they had premature!
forced natives into rituatians for which they were unsuited,
all the benevoleat intentions of the legislature would have
entirely frustrated. (Hear, hear.) Then, what was it to
which the hon. gentlemen referred ? The hon. gentleman
meant the covenanted service. (Hear, hear.) Every situa-
tion in India was open to natives, and as far as
they wero Sit for any office they had been and would
be advanced to it. (Oh, oh ) But the covenanted
servants consisted of those young men who had been edu-
cated at Haileybury and sent out to India; and became no
natives had gone through that process, and had been intro-
duced into the covenanted service, that was made a ground
of complaint. But perhaps the house would see that there
might be grave considerations connected with this subject.
If they introduced natives into the civil covenanted service,
then the question would come, why should they not be in-
troduced also into the covenanted military service ? (Cheers.)
And then the question would arise, how far natives should
be intrusted with the command of our armies ic India?
(Loud cheers.) lie (Sir J. W. llogg) thought the house
and the country would consider that that was a question
which was best left in the hands of the government. (Rear.)
The first statesmen that this country produced were sent
out to India, and it was far better when such questions Irma
that they should he left to the Governor General, who was
as anxious to do justice to India as any gentleman that sat
in that house. (Cheers.) Hon. gentlemen had spoken
much of British misrule, but they had passed by the great
social reforms which had been effected under our sway.
Thuggism abolished, dacoitship, suttee, infanticide, slavery
—all abolished. (Cheers.) He would now ask for
the attention of the house to the state of educa-
tion in India. Much had been done ; but he freely
admitted that much remained to be done. lie
did not venture to say that all had been done
that could or ought to be done. No man or body of
men united for any purpose would assert that. Since 1933,
a vast deal had been done in the cause of education
in India. There were in Bengal—English and mixed
schools, 37—natives, 104 • in the corth-western provinces,
7 English and mixed schools ; in Madras, 1 English and
mixed ; in Bombay, 14 English and mixed, and' 33 native
schools. The number of scholars was 26,000, and the sum
annually expended 66,000/. He admitted that a great deal
more ought to be expended, and no doubt would be in time.
But let the house consider how slow physical and moral
improvement had been in this country, where there were
no obstacles conparatively ; he might instance the improve-
ment in pole and the administration of justice. The last
subject to which he would allude was the ecclesiastical
establishments, and he would mention generally their in-
creme. In 1834 there were 64 churches; in 1832 there
were 115. In 1834 the church establishment cost
81,9541.; the Scotch Kirk, 6,2531.; the Roman catholic.,
I,6o9l.—(hear, hear)—total, 89,9061. In 1852, the church
establishment had increased to 107,700/. ; the Scoth Kirk
to 6,5001. ; and the Roman Catholics to 5,4001. In 1830
there were 116 missionary stations; in 1850, 403. The ad-
vance in the Roman catholic churches was the most marked.
In every station, where there was a European regiment,
there was a payment to a Roman catholic priest. The
bishop was not paid as a bishop ; but he received 250
rupees a month for attending to the registry of baptisms
and marriages, and so on, amongst the Roman catholic..
Within the last few hours he had seen a boot published in
India called the Missionary Intelligencer, which stated that,
looking at the country politically, there was a remarkable
opening for ministers of the gospel ; there was nothing to
deter any prudent faithful man from travelling about in all
parts, or settling in any place, and preaching the gospel.
It stated that the government of the country had
done much to establish this state of things ; the
governing board were well known for their high
principles, and their spirit and example pervaded
all the oicen of the government, who seemed to have been
selected for their talents, habits of business, and uprightness
of principle. The rapidity of improvement in the country
was really most wonderful ; a few years had done the work
of ages in the Putsjaub ; and the people were released from
all petty oppression. Men of talent and rank were all in-
tent upon their work, and all alive and progressing onward,
roaring no labour of either body or mind. They seemed to
have their eyes open to everything going on in the old
country, making roads, building bridges, and planting trees.
(Hear, hear.) This extract coming from such authority
was valuable as to the state of moral religious feeling in
' the country, bearing incidental testimony to the energy and
capacity of the servants of the company, more particularly
in the Punjaub. He regretted that he had detained the
butte for such a length of time ; but the subject was one of
great importance, and he felt that he was bound to speak
at some length, as the body with which be was
associated had been assailed, not only been charged with
mismanagement and errors of judgment, but even had their
motives and intentions impugned. He believed he might
say that the Court of Directors cared little for the :decision
of p 'lament, so far as regarded themselves, but their
arishand their anxious prayer was, that the Supreme Dis-
poser of events might re direct their councils that they
would select that torm of government, and those instru-
ments to execute it which were best calculated to advance
the interest and happiness of the people of India, and to
promote the honour and glory of this great country. (Loud
cheer.
Ou the motion of Mr. Beaeam,

The debate was adjourned till Thursday next.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (E 4,000,000) BILL.

This bill was read a third time and asted.
SUCCESSION TAX BILL.

Lord J. RUSSELL stated, in reply to Sir John Trol-
lop*, that he would take the debate on the Succession Tax
Bill on the first order day after the debate on the intro-
troduction of the India Bill was over.