The Express.
London, England, 1848-06-03 00:00:00

came law, the ship•builders of this country would transfer
their capital to those kingdoms whence the timber was
obtained. (Ilew, hear.)
Capt. BERKELEY said his must express hie dissent
from the views of Sir J. Stirling, as to the dependence of
the royal navy on the mercantile navy far a supply of
hands. Of the apprentices reared in the royal navy, many
hands. He rejoiced, however, at the system of recipro-
city which took place between the merchant navy and the
royal navy, hut he would not have hon. gentlemen believe
that they ri esived so many men from the merchant navy as
was supposed. At the present time they had 20 000 seamen,
but at the end of the war they had no difficulty in getting
100,000 seam. n, There were, however, from 60,000 to
70,000 British seamen serving in foreign countries, parting.
Lirly America ; and they had it for a Lot, that when there
was a rumour of a war between the two countries, many
men came back and volunteered their services to her Mu-
jests's navy. With respect to the registration of seamen,
he knew that practically it was a farce. It had been suc-
cessfully eluded, and yet it was so hateful to the men that it
had driven many out of the country. He could only say,
tlvit having con.idereil the subjert, sod having esamined thy
arguments on both sides, he had no fear that if the bill
brought in by the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham) had
been carried out, that they should have been able to man the
naty as well and as quickly re they ever had done. (Hear.)
- • - • • -

Captain HARRIS agreed in a great deal of what had
fallen from the gallant officer who had just spoken. He,
however, differed from him with respect to his oheervations
on the Fegir ration of seamen. Ile believed that the registry
office contained the meatus of maiming the navy without
having recourse to impressment. Above all things he
would advise her Maj sty's government not to alter the law
which riqu,red that at least three-fourths of the seamen
should be Englishmen. (Hear, hear.)
Sir A. 11001) begged teams to enter his solemn protest
ageinst the measure of the noble lard, lie believed that the
effect of it would be to undermine what had always been
considered the bulwark of England.
Mr. CLAY said he did not approve or the details of the
measure. As a free trader he could not advocate the interest
of one class at the intense of another, nor should he insist on
the worn-nut argument thst inasmuch as the commercial
marine was a nursery to the royal navy, the navigation laws
ought to he considered as the pr cc which they paid for the
greatest of all goodie the national defence. Ile abhorred the
system of impressment, and he believed they never could
have recourse to it again, but at the same time the measure
was not satisfactory to him unless they could Deist out
some way of manning the navy in time of emer-
gency without having recourse either to the sys-
tem of impressment or the system of high bounties.
lie believed that the protection of a particular clams war
~ever intended by the institution of the navigation laws.
The present incisors proposed to take away all the privi-
b gee given by these law., and to leave the hardens. This
seemed to him to be very unjust. Much evidence had
been gone into to prove that we vault' not compete in ship-
building with foreign nations, but he did not attach much
importance to the evidence which was adduced on that
point upon either side. lie thought that the practical griev-
ances were what the British as.ipmeners had to fear, and if
those were removed he was not disposed to rink they would
miner by change of the existing laws. Coder these cir-
cumstances' he of course could not give his sup-
port to the amendment, not believing that it was by
any aeons desirable that the principle of the navigation laws
ought to . emain untouched. Ile knew thuti t was •, re likely
his views would be far from accepteele to either party, bat if
he satisfied nothing else he should at least satisfy his own
conscierce by the vote it was his intentio to give that night
in favour of the measure.
Mr. NE W D ATE complained of the way in which this
measure was brought before the house, without complete
evidence being adduced in support of it. He also complained
of the way in which statistics were used in support of the
measure, and upecielly of the way in which they were esid
by the member for Westbury (Mr. Wilson) The hon. gen-
tleman had quoted the returee of tonnage from 1817 to 1823,
to oppose to those of the year 1346. But during the interval
Sir It. Peel's banking hill had poised, and the consequence
wugreateomenercial depression. It was, therefore, an abuse of
statistics to take the years cited by the hon. member. So
different were his (Mr. Newdegate'e) own calculations from
thou of the hon. member, that he believed the Americans in
a very few years, would have a greater amount of tonnage in
their marine than we should have. He called upon the
noble lurd opposite, as he valued the preservation of his re-
putation for statesmanship, as he desired to avert the curses
of posterity, to refuse his sancion to this bill.
Mr. W AWN 'aid that the shipping interest of this coun-
try had very little occasion to be fond of reciprocity trea-
ties, under which its business had so greatly fallen off,
haling, among other losses, sustained the entire loss of tee
South Sea whale fishery, which hod become vested in the
Americans. There was the reciprocity treaty with Russia ;
what had been the effect of this treaty 1 That since its rati-
fication there had been an increase in British tonnage
engaged in the trade of 63 per cent, but in
Russian tonn ige, of 160 per cent. The ministers
had made many blunders in these reciprocity trea-
ties, and many more they would make b lore they
tumbled through. He called upon the house to recol-
lect that what made us iced pendent of foreign
countries during the war was not free trade, but our colonies,
rich, industrious, and loyal, and our thriving mercantile ma-
rine. Let not the house by assenting to this measure destroy
both these sources of independence.
Viscount INGESTRE said that the government had as-
signed no valid cause for the fatal and sweeping change
which they proposed to make in our nuigation system. If
there were defects in that system, let them be clearly shown,
and he for one would consent very readily to remedy them,
hut he did not mid: Mend why, because a man
was ill, he should be poisoned instead of cured.
If free trade was to lie quoted as the reason for effecting
the reopened change, let him ale whi tin r free trade princi-
ples had maintained themselves. The occurrences of late
menthe would too clearly prove that such had not been the
ease. The full effect of the abolition of the corn laws had
not been experienced ; when it was, hon. gentlemen would
not be so enamoured of that change as they now were.
He recollected in the good old fashioned times, when ships,
colonies, and commerce, was a standing toast. The states-
men of that day never anticipated the hour would come,
whin foreign ships were to be allowed to snatch the coasting
I and carrying trade from our native sailors. As for
the Blue B mk, which had been so much quota d in support
of the proposed change, he must say he did not rely upon
the statements contained in that book ; on the contrary he
considered it to he little hotter than a heap of calumnies upon
British seamen collected by the assistanc- of British consuls.
However, there was very little hope that a measure intro-
duced at so late a period of the union would be passed.
If the navigation laws were abolished one of the immediate
consequences would be that British capital would seek invest-
ment in foreign states to the great detriment of the native
interests of the empire. Thy Americans would also get all
the most valuable freights, namely, the light goods, whilst
the heavy carrying. trade of sugars and other raw produce
involving greater risk and more wear and tear would alone
devolve on English shipping.
Lord J. HAY said that the noble lord, and all who had
opposed the proposition of the government, rested their oppo-
sition on the effect it was calculated to produce upon the '
naval power of the country. He was ready to concede that
the naval power of this and any other country must depend
upon its commercial prosperity ; and if he could believe that
this measure would disturb the naval power of England, it
should not have his support. But, after considering it in all
its bearings, he believed it calculated to add to the energy,
enterprise, and spirit of this country, to Mauve its wealth
and naval supremacy. (Hear hear.) It was said also
thst the shipping interest of this country was unable to
compete with th it of oteer countries—that the building and
equipping of ships cost more in England than elsewhere.
lle believed that was true is related to ieferior ships, but
certainly not as regarded firstelsas a' ins, which could be
hui t and equipped cheaper in England than in any other
nation on the globe, cheaper than in the East Indies in the
comparison of 60,0001. to 80,0001, and cheaper than in the
United States by nearly 20 per cent. With regard to what
tall from the hon. member for Oxfordshire respecting the
correspondence of the 11:i lab consuls, he could only say that
he had read every word of it, and theeviden se contained in the
blue book, and speaking front his own experience, was pre-
pared to verify every worded it. (Cheers and counter cheers.)
In 1831 when he commanded one of her Majesty's squadrons
off the Downie they hail o put fromBo t 100 British merchant
ships under the protection of the British flag; and scarcely
.1 day passed that he was not called upon to dc ide a quarrel
Intween the master and crew of one of them, in nearly every
instance the master being wrong, and the men ill-used.
(liar, hear.) In the like manner, in 1843, when he corn
mended a frigate at New York, nine cues of complaint were
brought be'ore him, which he plainly saw had arisen from a
bail state of moral discipline on board the vessels. He had
lately taken pains to make inquiries on the subject from a me
professional men, and every one of them confirmed the
'minion he entertained on the subject. Lord Digester,
at the beginning of his speech, had asked another question,
to whies he (Lerd John Hay) thought it right to inve an
answer. The manly lord uked, what the country had got by
free tra le measure,. Ilia reply was You have got every.
thing you expected, and I only hope the repeal of the navi-
gation laws may be as successful as had been the repeal of
the corn laws" (Ironical cheers from the protectionist
benches.) He (Lord John Ha)) understood the meaning of
those cheers; hut he would tell hon. gentlemen opposite that
he had looked into and understoo •1 well, and was as much
attached to, the agricultural interest as they were, and he de.
tied those hon. gentlemen to disprove the fact that property
had sold and farms been let at higher prices and on better
terms than was the ease before the corn laws were altered.
( Hear, hear)
Mr. HILDYARD (Whitehaven) said, that in spite of the
opinion expressed by his right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) to
the contrary, ho (Mr. Hildyard) held that the onus lay upon
the government to show the necessity for incurring so serious
a risk as their proposition involved, and what rational likeli-
hood there existed nf gain to the country which induced them to
undertake that risk. No boa member on the other side of
the house had remarked upon the immense stake which was
involved in this experiment. The capital embarked in ship-
ping by this country was not lees than 40,000,0001 , irrespec-
tive of the capital enth irked in occupations connected with
shipping. Hon. members opposite had spoken of the owners
of this capital as though they were a protected class, and
could well afford the reduction in their profits which
this measure must inevitably produce. A greater error could
not exist than to supp is • that the capital embarked in ship-
ping was oancentreud in the hands of a few rich individuals;
on the contrary, he knew that in the port he had the honour
to represent a v. ry large portion of oho uadesrnen and all
the retired merchant: • he re had, according to their respective
means, embarked their property in the shipping connected
with that port ; and let the house consider the immense ruin
that must fall upon these individuals it this experiment of
the g ivernment tailed. Lit them remember the number of
hands who waisted a livelihood from shipping, hest.l the
s aloes, who by rensou et a 'ltem° in this ornp‘i:i.tit, would
be involved in ruin. In such en event, what was to become

of the enormous body of sailors who would be thrown int
employ, and who were utterly unfit for any other peer.:
lion ?No one had attempted to deny—on the contrary it
been admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by th
hon. and gallent member for Glouc.ster (Capt. Birkelevi.
and by the no de lord who had just sat down—that the pan'_
perity of the commercial marine was essential to the rgf.
cienry of the naval service. Such.heing the ride, to whirl
capital, the men engaged in the service, and the empire
would be exposed, what was the necessity and what the
adv.ntages reld out by the government to induce sir
house to consent to incur the a risks ? In the first place; it
was stated that the policy adopted by other nati ins made
it
necessary for this country to change i policy, and two
tion•—viz., Prussia and Americ hAte en oamrd. Hie"
n.t whether or not the intimation which had h e girt, ,0
this country was to be regarded as the• at and menace,
eau., there was no probability that Prussia was, or
would be, able to carry that menace into ei„
ecution. As to the soft invitation of America, the ,
Mons of Mr. Bancroft might have been mode in per,
fect good faith on his part, but it did en
follow 'hat the executive powers in America would a,,,
those suggestions into effect, even efier this country IQ
adopted them. America was not rescinding her IlaTiggli,
laws pari passe with this country, hut was wateling the
proci edings of the British legislature ; and in the end, if the
American executive should be telt in a minority, in whir
c •ndition would this country be? Assuming that Amerin
acted with good faith, we moor give up to her oar colonial
trade, and she had nothing like it to give us in retain.
(lii ar.) It might be an advantage to wive up the cosign,
trade of this country if Ana-rice would throw open bees;
he pr,bability was that America could take none of owe;
while h. r immense sea-hoard, with is constantly developieg
trade, would be in some measure thrown into our heed,
The number of American vessels engaged in the town.
trade WAS es great as the whole of those engaged baj'i
foreign trade. As to our colonial trade, it was said theta,
nii a demanded this measure. He denied it. They bei
demsnded relaxation with regard to themsi Ives, and a,
were about to give it to all the world, which,
far from being a boon, would be a positive
disadvantage to tho colonies. Hon. gentlemen had ow
tended that this measure was due to the colonies at a ems.
p• !elation fer the late free-trade measure, ; (-there defendej
the measur.• u a benefit to thecousumer at hon.*. Bat hoe
could it be beneficial to both ? It the reduction of heir*
Twhere
onwouldrne t
member
berhe
awdevnatniwn
to. t
to e
the poetscc
n uomf
blanche-ter had talked of our having arrived at a newer,
etr;aet colonhomeists,
when glory, power, and supremacy had parsed away, 111
the a. ntiment had been vociferously cheered. (Chien.)
He wished the " new era " might prove as prosperous as the
one which he supposed passing away. He (Mr. Ilildyartt)
could not but be reminded of the speculation of one of ear
greatest modern poets, who, stung amongst the ruins of g
cel, heated city of antiquity, had anticipated a like fate for
modern empires. (Hear, hear.) If the house should unfor-
tunately cuntrihute to such a result, they would have the
more ifi cation of reflecting that they had not done so from any
nec alit!, but merely for the sake of na:iiistering tea by,
and hollow liberality. (Chews.)

Sir .1. WALSH moved that the debate be adjourned; and
strangers w. re ordered to withdraw; but, belor, the galle-
ries were cleared,
. .

Lund J. RUSSELL rose to express a hope that if the house
intended to take a division on the preliminary rev)lutions
the: they would do so at once, and t of tenter adjourn the
debate, especially as hon. members would have full uppont.
nity of expressing their opinions when the bill was brought
in. (Cries of "adjourn.") It w.•uld be mo-t inennvenientto
postpone the introduction of the bill until after the h,,m0y,,,,,d
as on Monday next it was understood that a committee ofsup-
ply should be moved, in order to give the hon. member fee
I) itsetshire an oppertunity of bringirg on his ormodment
founded on the Spanish correspoi deny, and, as if this de-
note were further adjourned, it could not be resume Won
Thursday, when the dianssion on the resolution could
scarcely be taken before Whitsuntide, he hoped the house
would consent to go to a d vision at one on the amendment
at be right hon. member for Stamford. (Cries of " No,"
" Adi.urn," and " Go on.")
Mr. RICARDO also urged the propriety of dividing et
once ow the main question.
Sir J. WALSH must insist on his motion, as he and
many °there intended to :press their opining' en this preli•
miners, step. (Cries of "Go on," " Adjourn," sod
" Divide.")
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the debate might be
continued when the house went into committee on the roe.
lotions. . .

Lord G. BENTINCIL—But we don't intend it to go into
c mrrittee. (A laugh.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—If the amendment should not be
carried, and hon. gentlemen opposite would allow the &vi-
sion when taken, to be an far conclusive as t 3 permit the bill
to be brought in, he should not object to adjcurn the debate.
(" Go on," and Divide.")
Mr. MERRIER >ti . the noble lord's plan would not do,
as if he and his Sri, nds should be in a maj city, as they ic.
tended to be (a laugh), the noble lord w.,uld not have the
opportunity of enpresaing his opini 3ns on the subj,ctat all.
Mr. CARDWELL observed that it was genetatly wader-
stood teat the debate would be furthe: adjourned. sod
he as well as al other hon. memb ra wnhed to take
pert in it, which they eoula not do if it were brought to
clo.e that evening.
Mr. H. BAILI.IE asked, why not re-time it oa Mondavi
L'rd J. RUSSELL had no other objeclim than that the
hon member for D3reetehire having given notice of a data
vote of censure on the government, it would be mutely pro-
per to allow it to stand over until after the holidays.
(Divide.)
Mr. BRIGHT, who spoke amid cries of "oh, oh," and
much interruption, suggested that if the noble lord lad not
math a positive arrangement as to Monday, the di.batemight
oe risnmed on that day, end the question as to the Sp nub
correspondence might be deferred till a later day in the
week. . . .

Mr. IIERRIES integrated that it was not impossible that
the discussion on his hon. friend's (Mr Bankes') motion
might conclude at an early hour—(a laugh) ;if so, the ad-
journed debate might be taken afterwards on the same night.
Lord J. RUSSELL, who again protested 'Rains. any de-
lay which should retard the introducti m of the hill beyond
the period when the house adjourned for the holidays, es-
pressed his concurrence with the right li..n. gentleman's
suggestion, and, supposing the debate should come on on
Monday alikr that on Spanish affairs, he bocci hon. gentle-
men would permit it to be brought to a cmclusion on that
night. He should have occasion to detain them but a very
short time.
The qu. stion that the debate be adjourned till Monday
next was then pat—the Speaker declaring the "ayes" to be
the maj .rity ; the " noes,' however, demanded a division,
and the house divided.
The house divided—For the adjournment .. 236
Against it ....... 73-163
Lord J. RUSSELL proposed to tin the adjournment of
the debate for Monday, after the debate on Spanish affairs.
Mr. RICARDO said it was hopeless to expect the debate
would come on on Monday in that case. It was better,
therefore, to fix a precise day for the resumption of the
debate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it bad better stand at all events
for Monday. Taey could then d,cide when the debate
would come on.
The debate was accordingly adjourned till Monday.
PRISONS.

On the motion of the Souctron-GENsust. leave was
given t 3 bring in a bill to facilitate the raising of money
by corporate bodie. for building or urnlr,nir prisons.

INCLOBIJRE OF LANDS.

On the nintion",7i:l;.. L 1.3,71; it ire was gisen °C. bring

in a bill to authorise the inclosure of certain land+ it
pursuance of the third, and also of a ep, cial, report of du
Inciosure C unraissieners at England and Wales.
The house then adjourned at a quarter put 1 o'clock.

Ih Orproo.

MAILS..

The mails for the Braidla, the River Male, Monte Video, Penna.
bum Wind, Madeira, and Buenos Ayres, will be made up on tM
evening of the 3rd June.
The mails for Vigo, Oporto, Lisbon, Madeira, CAM, and Gibraltar
will he made up on the morning of the 7th June.
The overland clo-ed motto, run Marseilles, to the 31editerrancon,
Egypt, Aden, Ceylon. India, Hong-Kong, dtc., will be made up on tha
evening of the 7th June.
The mails for British North America, and the United States,
will he made up en the evening of the 9th June.
The West India Mails, excluding Bermuda, Namoa, if3Vanla4
lloviduras, New Orleans, Veen Crux, Tampico, and Porto Rico, and
including those for Madeint, Jacmel, CArtharetl.t, SAM. Martha,
Chagres, P.insimn, Went Coast of South America, and St. Juan.dt,
Nicaragua, will be made up on the mot fling of the 17th June.
The overland mails tot Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, the lonian Islands
Egypt, Aden, Ceylon, India, Hong-Kong, and China, ria Suuthamp•
ton, will be made up on the morning of the 20th June.
Ine mails for New South Wake, Van Inemairs fand, and New
Ze eland will be made up on the everting of the 30th June.
The mails for the Went Cannot of Africa and Madeira will be made
up on the evening of the 30th June.

NOTICE TO ADVERTISERS.
The number of STAMPS issued by the authorities of the
Stump-orbs, during 1347, to the
DAILY NEWS was 3.447.009
This, we believe, is within etgla per cant at the number
Wend to the Morniny Herald, Morning C4ronicle, and
Morning Post, ALL PUT voavtitha.
In addition to tne above, issued to the DAILY NEWS,
Mornaus Paper, there were issued for the Emma, Edition,
TUE EXPRESS 778.714
Which was more, we believe, than were issued either to
-he Globe or Standard, Evening Papers.

BIOM WATII AT LOI.IION OKI ME.
tote IDAT—liereleg. N Wapiti S. A1m.... M mic NA 3.
Monts& 42 pot {t Aft 44.4•4. I Nut.. 04•4 4.

LONDON, SATURDAY. JUNE 3.

Ir is curious to note what different tactics parties
adopt in the House of Commons when a debate on the
navigation laws and when a debate on parliamentary
reform is in progress. When the latter subject is
under the cousidetation of the house, its advocates,
knowing that they address men who are quite aware
that under any other system of election than that
which at present prevails they woull have little or no
chance of being where they are, tool themselves com-
pelled to address the public out of doors, in order that
the pressure of its opinion may bo brought to bear
0011 their auditors ; its opponents address themselves
to the latexes' and wishes 01 their immediate tie-