The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-17 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 17. 1847.

must also have gone forth to the country in the I
wily newspapers on no lege thin three ocasasions.
separated a week from each other. He thought, therefore,
there could be no pretence for saying that there wee any dis-
guise in the matter. He had been sebused* of feloniously
attempting to impose a burden en the ocoupying tenant.
The clauses were not intended to come into operation until
1849, and therefore any occupying tenant upon whom the
burden mig:lt have been imposed would have incurred it
with hiseyes open. (Hear, hear.) He had no connexion,
either himself or through his connexions, with the land
of Ireland; he had sought only to do justice to all parties,
and he believed that the occupying tenant and the poor
of 'reload would have been benefited by the passing of the
clause is question. The object was to secure the aid of those
immediately above the peasantry in administering the law
and checking abuse. By the second clause he did impose an
immediate burden but it was on the landlords, and not on
the occupiers. What he had proposed was that from the
time of the passing of the bill the own** of all tenements
not exceeding 61. in value, and comprising 76,029 occupiers,
should pay the entire burden, and the occupiers should be
altogether relieved. Nothing could be more unjust than
the representation which had been given of his intentions.
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought the noble lord had corn-
pletely cleared himself from the imputation of having
brought forward the clauses without due notice. He re-
gretted, however, t• perceive that there was still a disposition
to bring forward the question at some futile time ; for it was
his firm conviction that such a clause as that which related
to occupying tenants, would greatly increase the difficulty of
administering the law. Ile entirely concurred in the belief
expressed by his right hoe. friend, that this measure would
issue in the permanent improvements of Ireland, provided
all classes unit. d to ensure it an efficient working.
Mr. GOULDURN said it was impossible that she law
could be useful unless measures were taken for securing Re'
proper execution. Not only should all classes be called
upon to co-operate in carrying the measure into effect,
but the governaten• must lend its aid to protect those who
performed their duty. In Ireland the question was not so
much what was the law, aa how was the law executed. He
had seen a published letter from the hon. member for Roch-
dale, eating that a passive resistance would be opposed to
the measure. If the government permitted any resisttuce,
whether active or passive, it would be impossiblo to carry
out the measure with benefit to the country. (Rear, hear),
Lord J. RUSSELL said he coacurred in what had fallen
from the right hon. gentleman. It would be necessary that
the government should protect the persons who would be
' concerned is idministering the law, not only in the granting
of relief, but in the refusing of unfair and unjust applica-
tions. Those who had represented this law as so very ob-
jectionable and so very ruinous to the property of Ireland,
seemed to him (Lord J. Russell) to have altogether miscon-
ceived the administration of a law of this kind, and the

proffer purpose and nature of the law itself. It was con-
stantly represented—it was represented in that pamphlet
which was circulated as the *perch of the Archbishop of
Dublin, as if the poor of Ireland had nothing to do but to make
their choice between receiving such wages as the farmers
might choose to give them, and going to the guardians of
the poor and accepting any work which was sufficient for
their subsistence and support. Now, as every one knew,
this was not the poor-law, or the proper administration of
the poor-law. If the landlords and farmers agreed to sup-
pert the labouring man, and offered him sufficient wages for
his enleistence, he had no claim whatever on the poor-law
maim ; he had no right whatever to go to the guardians
as say :" Its true lam offered work but I prefer idlene a ;
is trus I am offered a full subsistence with work but I pre-
fer a scanty subsistence without any work ; I am a
pauper, and u such I claim a subsistence from
you." That was not consistent with a poor-law.
Yet it was represented that such would be the cue under the
proposed law. The people of Ireland, preferring as they
did—like most other people—subsistence withoutwork, were
told that under the poor-law they would have the choice ;
and it was by such representations that the poor-law was
made so alarming to the holders of property in Ireland. He,
however, concurred with the hon. member for Rochdale that
the law was guarded from abuse by very stringent provisions.
When they provided that there should be no relief to the
able-bodied except in the workhouse while there was room
there, and that when there was not room, there should first
be an application to the poor-law commissioners, who could
permit relief only for a limited time, and that relief re-
stricted to food, he did say that very stringent precautions
indeed had been taken against abuse. (Hear, hear.) He
entirely agreed with the right hon. gentleman who had last
spoken, that those who should fairly and honestly carry out
the provisions of the law, deserved the fullest support from
the government. If such persons were exposed to intimi-
dation or undue influence, he entirely concurred with the
risht hon. gentleman in thinking that such persons should
be upheld by the entire power of the executive. He did not
*fine with the right hon. gentleman, and the noble mover
of a clause which lad already been the subject of discussion,
that that clause did not impose an additional burthen on
the occupying tenant. He could not agree with the noble
lord that the case of Ireland was exactly similar to that of
England. It might be quite true that in the case et a rate,
which was not to take effect until 1849, any person taking
land from that period might make his contract with the 1 ind-
lord accordingly, bat then, judging from what had hitherto
been the case in Ireland, and the greet desire for holding
land cebich had always been evinced there, he feared that
such would not be the practical results, but that landlord.
would still be able to let their ground without any deduc-
tion proportionate to the amount of poor-rate. (Hear,
hey.) With the ening conviction that to holding land he
held the means of life, he feared that the Irish tenant would
find himself obliged to submit to the imposition of the entire
burthen. If the noble lord's couclusiona had been correct, the
principle of kis clause might have been a sound one, and the
clause itself might have been useful ; but when the noble
lord and the right hon. gentleman called on government to
support the administration of the law, he thought that go-
vernment might also be allowed to express • hope that par-
liament would not make the administration of the law or
the collection of the rate more difficult than it ought to he,
or make it odious to the people of Ireland by throwing
any legislative difficulty is the way of the collection of the
rate. (Cheers.) He should say nothing further, but to
express his gratification that not only after debate, but after
many gentlemen having been in Ireland, and, of course,
having ascertained the feeling of their constituents, there
was no intention to divide the house on the third reading,
and that, therefore, the bill might be considered as passing
with the general coesent of the House of Commons. (Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI admitted that there was considerable
difference between the case of England and that of Ireland,
but as the right hon. the Secretary of State had confused
that he supported the bill without any great confidence as
to its results, and merely as an experiment, be (Mr. Disraeli)
thought that his noble friend had been quite justified in rea-
soning on the only analogous case with which circumstances
provided him. The analogy might not be strict, but in rea-
soning on what was admitted to be an experimental Irish
poor-law, the only precedent that could be taken was that
which his noble friend had referred to. He was of opinion
that the principle which his noble friend had laid down, and
nearly carried into effect, was a salutary end statesman-like
principle. It was • T.:inch:de Stliich had been very te'dil
misrepresented both and out of the house, but that
did not inspire his mind with any doubt as to
its soundness. It was • principle to which the
right hOneurale the Secretary of State had offered the
weakest opposition ever offered by secretary of state. His no-
ble friendl's object in proposing his clause was, not to benefit
either landlord or tenant exclusively, but to withdraw the
Withal from the small tenant, and to give a stimulus to the
saperior one to carry the law into effect. (Hear, hear.) It
was all very well to talk of throwing the burthen oa a clam,
betas great object was to pas, a law that would operate.
Arils small tenant his noble friend proposed greater indul-
=than was given by the present law. The law excluded
rated up to 41. from being taxed ; his noble friend
alended the exemption to 61.. while, at the same time, he
threw oaths superior tenants what he conceived would act
as • stimulus a them fairly to carry out the law, stipu-
lating, at the name time, that there should be a sufficient
lapse of time to enable them fairly to calculate its operation.
(Hear, hese.) Was it then to be tolerated that, in the ease
of • measure which was acknowledged to be only an ex-
periment, when his noble friend brought forward a whole-
some and beneficent clause, he wan treated with the
severity which had been exhibited towards him oa
that evening? The Irish had been compared to
the Poles ; he trusted they would not lay themulue
open to the charge of being a fickle and frivolous
people ; but certainly the way in which they had on one day
passed votes of unlimited confidence, and on the next of un-
limited denunciation, gave eery little encouragement to
public men to fight their battles. (Laughter.) Whatever
might be the opinion of the people of Ireland, his noble
friend had only been actuated by a desire to do what he con-
ceived his duty, and nothing that might be said, either in or
out of the home, would induce him to swerve from that
course. (Hear. beer.)
Sir G. GREY said that the hon member for Shrewsbury
had accused himi3fr:exireseing a want of confidence in the
poor law. He to state that he had never used an ex-
pression calculated to throw a doubt on the expediency or
necessity of that measure. Ho had said that he could not
predict its results, became they would mainly depend cn
the amount of co-operation given by those claws who would
be entrusted with its execution.

Capt. FITZMAURICE said be had visited many coun-
tries and in none had he seen so much patient industry an
was exhibited by the working classes of England. (Wear,
hear.) He wished he could say as much for the people of
Ireland ; but he was sorry to say that his knowledge of that
country led hint to a very different conchnion. Their con-
duct towards the English people reminded him of the nursery
tale of the pig who came to partake of the little child's
breakfast. 'Mee the latter saw the pig eating up all,
she said, " Pig, take the spoon." He thought it was
high time to say the same to the people of Ireland.
No ass uses deeply regretted than he did the calamity
which has visited Irelend, but be could not but feel that it
was in ths power of the farmers of that country to have
wholly shared its condition by taking men from the public
works sad turning them to the cultivation of the soil. Such
wee the *Won eseiveteit to the farmers by Col. Douglas,
and the gervereatestalsers reiterated the mime sentiments.
He bellies* that the farmers of Ireland were holding back
their nimbi Of corn until famine prices might by chance
arise ; bet be warned them of the consequences. Letters had
arrived tom a former member of the House of Assembly
of Upper Canada, stating that the granaries of both those
provinces, as well as those of America, were crammed
with grain ready to be sent to England in the
spring, in quantities beyond precedent. If, then, the farmers
persisted in holding their supplies, the result would be •
fearful paralysis among the landlords within the neat twelve
months. With respect to the bill now under considentin,
he had given it his bat support; he wished it every success.
As he was upon his legs, and as the hon. member for Lime-
rick (Mr. W. S. O'Brien) had alluded to members of his
(Capt. Finmaurice's) family, es having been deficient in
their duty as Irish landlords, he hoped the house on this oc-
casion would permit hint the opportunity to justify them.