The Express.
London, England, 1851-07-23 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 23, 1851.
- I

erect themselves into a corporation withord the content of t
the Cisteen, and here in this document from Rome, it wee !
laid down in terms the most explicit, that all jurisdiction`
incident to the hierarchy belonged to the Pope. No man
could assume the jurisibet'An of administering justice to
her Majesty's subjects or 'arid power of enforcing his judg-
ment. In Lidor's c.,„se he was convicted of assuming
jurisdiction nscienlii r tun
to . Let their lordships tuof7t co
he rescript, and they would find that
it expressed
uasedginge fora
and definite objects in the assumption
of ocelesiaW.cal government ; anl that document had been
sent her.: by a foreign sovereign treating the country
as if it had no church, or, having a church,
it being under the rule of the Pope ; or as if that church
hail passed away, and the people had returned to the dominion
oc the Pope. They had been told that the act of Richard 11.
was an ancient one, and ought not to be referred to. The
same thing might be said of Magna Chute. It had
been said that we might have remonstrated, but what
means were there o remonstrating ? Then it had
been suggested that a resolution of their lord-
ships' house might have been passed. If the
matter had been so passed by every advantage would have
been taken, and when still further encroachments were re-
sisted it would have been said,—See what had been allowed
already ; and if a resolution had been passed, it would have
been urged that parliament had not acted upon it. But
what had been done by this bill ? It had been indicated
that parliament did not intend to allow the Roman catho-
lic religion to advance in any degree that was dangerous to
the church or state of this country. (Year.) The Pope had
sent over a rescript which was an insult in both matter and
manner, and it was met by saying at once, " This shall not
be done." Ile thought that was at once the most spirited
and dignified manner of proceeding, and that the most
legal and proper way was to stop the abuse at the first, and
say it should not be committed. Was it feasible that tho
aggression of a foreign state was to be passed over, and the
people left to take care of themselves, without the aid and
protection of parliament ? Ile admitted that they should
begin with a mild measure; but they should pro-
nounce their determination to do their duty if future

ss.----------- carried out. Whet was the mak I The Roman Who'll.,
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. bishops, not being able to have it fa doll own way, jr,,,,_
—....---- distele we.rulrew the children of the Raman cathol',es. He
stated i'.iis
..afact for the purpose of pedflng .t heir lordships
HOUSE OF LORDS.—TuEsDAT, JULY 22. their with respect to the deg, VII of that
Vie Loin CIIANCILLOW took his seat at five o'clock. chw.ok. lie-- -himself would resit es for ea he axed
PETITIONS PRESENTED. every attempt at encroachment. .___lfo would , St-
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES AssrErTtoN BILL.—By the 9 rind nothing that bad been agog. ir it wet. tp.olie
Earl of WINCHILSEA, from a great many places ; the over again he should pursue the gene mune, bat sli he said
Duke of ARGYLL, from 67 'Weiler= congregations Ir. before, he here took his stand—Prirscipiis auto.. On
Lancashire; the Marquis of BREADALBANE, and
'ne this ground he should vote for the' isssonit main alibisßishop of MANCHESTER, from reveral places i 'Alain bill, and he hoped he had acquitted himself in the inted-of
favour of this bill. his noble friend of any inconsistency in the course which
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSC)IPTIOn BILL. he formerly adopted and that which he adopted now.
'I he order of the day having been read fur i.estiming the (Cheers.'
The
&herr, Lord VACS opposed the bill, and saw no necessity for
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said tl..erO were certain the course of policy which her Majesty's government seemed.
prineiples attached to Romanis= ineon'Atent with religious resolved to pursue.
liberty, and be would,i,PPok its awl, .ce. with all his power. The Earl of WICKLOW adverted to the progressive'
Ancquality of civil privileges never would satisfy the Roman steps by which the biU had reached its present form, ob.
catholic church ; and, if the rorxtenons now claimed were serving that he should have opposed tho first bill which
- . •_ .. . • -vs introduced principally because he tit it un-
. .. .

circumlocution, to speak of him in any other manner.
An eminent lawyer, who was a most attached friend of the
church of England, assured him that hie legal opinion
was that this bill, if paned and carried into effect,
would sca may bavandate the appointment of bi-
sh • dr ordination of priests, but also the
and all ether ritna performed by such priests.
bra said of tho insult offered to the inclepen-
dna crown and country, and they had heard fee-
now cant phrase, this "parcelling out of the
Be cant not see the force of the phrase, be-
gonia not at all perceive the distinction between a
aid* sad a diocese. The kingdom was parcelled out by
tfs MIN authority offending now in 1688, and then with-
in.- Toronotrano or any idea of danger, when it was
dlddsdf Mr alder for vicars apostolic appointed by
dr Pop. TM Weir& was again parcelled out in 1840
when the tour disinter were increased to eight dis-
tricts, still for vitas gonetalie. Therefore all that vas
i done n 1850 MIS to asks a change in words, and to in-
crease the eirterdialdtb of the vican apostolic into thirteen
dioceses for In ordinary. Another corn' laint was

and, if that

a-,-I•''...aittiiire,
proposed
weads,
and of the authorities of the gaol. The noble lord intimated
be member of parliament for the borough of Greenwich, bee-
t!. lien.% Trete. ut
"Thatillsom Dthaetwidorsdaslothma,t,h,
that he should next year move that a select committee .
mat and voted in this house, without having taken the
ing
appointed to inquire into the whole case..
had been subjected at the hands of those very magistrates pwroere
ca
had been form tendered unto him at the table, the Attorney-General
roborated the statement that Mr. Ernest Jones hag
t of England be ordered to institute proceedings against him
subjected to very oppressive treatment, but that treatment
law f such default, pursuant to the Act 6 Geo. 111.,
was altogether operated under the tyrannical rules of the at„ fur
Mr. NV. WILLIAMS seconded the motion. He quite co abjuration oath, in the words contained and set forth in the
p • n, founded on various statutes, and which the visiting e. 53.
dcd his hon. and learned friend
for withdraw his amendment, in order that the amendment
which such ill-treatment ot prisoners could be prevented to
learned member for Aylesbury might
the future would be the repeal of the acts under which these of the hon. and
justice" were not at all responsible for. The only mode in Sir B. HALL recommended
nelson
Mr. Jones, an intereions were in operation. be put.
member for Aylesbury, but could not withdraw
tap
de- that
part of it which opposed the retention of the words
tapes man and a writer,
butinot the the noble lord's resolution.
riving him not merely of the means of writing,
Mr. W.J.. FOX supported the :motion, and especially learned 24r ANSTEY consented to give way to the hon. and
of
dwelt upon the cruelty which had been wantonly exercised
mat innocuous hooks. The amendment having been by leave withdrawn,
Colonel THOMPSON pointed ont:the impolicy in ago-.
would embody the real question before the house.
eternment of making heroes of political opponents by parse- thought
That the Baron Lionel de Rothschild, and Alder.
It was, "
Mating them.
alomons having taken the oaths of allegiance and
Mr. BOUVERIE said there were no rules or regulations man s SMr BETHELL rose to propose an amendment which he
d also oathofabjuration,in the manner
te" h in which the house was bound by law to administer the
political
offences, a distinction not known to the law. it .
entitled to take their seats as members of the
practised said oaths, arc
reference to the oppressions alleged to have been
house." (Cheers.) This would in effect he a declaration
in force in prisons affecting specially prisoners convicted of supremacy,
Mr. Ernest Jones, it was true that Mr. Jones had beenan the
upon
confined separately, but that was at his own request,
his which the house was bound by law to administer them. At
the only alternative within the power of the justices to
present the question of law had not been discussed with the
being mixed up with other offenders with whom he was
assistance that was to be derived front a more perfect ex-
being that these gentlemen had taken the oaths in the manner in
anxious not to associate. The position in which Mr. Jones
..
came to the prison was within the second class of
judgeby The 9th Geo. 111., the statute to which he more partied_
meanants, and was upon the direction of the
laxly wished to reer, threw on all subjects of the realm, it,
whom Mr. Jones was tried ; and pursuant to that direction
• Jews f th • obligation of taking the oath of
the justices and prison authorities were bound to act in eluding o couree, e
mimic- gemination of the statute book than had yet taken places,
as he could not take that oath in the term
the fact was that the justices had rather relaxed than ag-
prescribed for those of the Christian faith, the
rated the rules. Hon. gentlemen seemed to imagine
obli non rested upon him that he shoed() take
their treatment of the prisoner. So far Wilt was practicable, abjuration,thw under certain circumstances, and with regard to
that all persons sent to prison fur offences called political— . .
he allowed to take an oath, that was,
interesting George the First was
..
dared as haying withdrawn into a genteel and
in that form which was binding upon his cons eicnce. The
retirement, in which they were entitled to all sorts of indul- . .
legislature Laving imposed upon the Jew an obligation
a term of extreme elasticity—were forthwith to be cone,- it !Can the form and manner in which by tise Ist of
genres within and applause without.
' the taking of an oath, he could not fulfil,' same to his relief
and Mr. Henley thought the petitioner had been harshly
by a declaratory enactment—the 10th of George L—
treated.
which was a parliamentary dcelarati, M rmanent as
Mr. G. Thompson, Sir 11. Willoughby, Sir D. L. Evans, which, as the law had been previously w aderstood as to
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it
that the law in regard to the administering
applicable to political offeeders, for no such class of offenders other respects)
in
of judicial oaths as it existed court a of justice, should be
was known in prisons.
would be quite impossible to produce the rules of prisons far as the Jew was concerned, though temporary in some
therefore, which prevailed in courts of justice in ad-
lion to "prisons in which political offenders have been con- rule,.r
for judicial must bo
ministering oaths
.purposes,
Lord D. STUART proposed to alter the terms of his mo- adopted, in administering political and civil oaths. The
fined."
hout a difference. political purposes. This 1 from the words
was clear,
teration suggested was a distinction wit
should n. of the statute. The Ist of fleorge the First created the
Mr. BRIGHT proposed that the government colt.,
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said the al- abided by elsewhere in a, aministeriag oaths tier
fe ene to certain political and civil
' l in prisons where prisoners of this class were ment and also in re r c .
rn es certain
rights by other persous. The 9th of Geo. I. made the obit-
usually confined.
lean to a return, to be moved for on some future day, of t • obligation to take. particular oaths by members of parlia-
gation to take the oatte universal. It was then for the first
' Mr. BOUVERIE consenting to this understanding,
The motion was withdrawn. time extended to al'. classes of the subjects of the realm as
to Ihere th • Jew was recog-
previleges were is: exercised. c.
brought up, and the resolutions were agreed to.
raised as a subject entitled to political and civil rights, and
The house then adjourned till 6 o'clock.
The report of the Committee of Ways and Means wall then the. condition on venich certain political and civil rights and
The SPEAKER resumed the chair at six o'clock. afterwards by a declaratory act the legislature prescribed
THE GERMAN CONFEDERATION. the mode of taking the oath, viz., that it should be the same
I 'entice in regard to judicial
from Mr. Axrrev, that the representative of her .)lajesty oaths. The 13th Geo. 11. recognised the same rulei
down in the act of Geo. ~
at the Gerinanic Diet at Frankfort had, along with the re- as was thus laid
In. .
Lord PALMERSTON stated, in answer to a question as was followed in courts o j
oath whichf
ah'uration enacted that that
the non-German provinces into the Germanic confederation. mentaryuform t
be uwithu due.' observances'and •
No answer, however, had yet been received to this protest, oath oho Id taken. .
presentative of France, protested against the admission of and the Pith of Geo. , contained the last pulle-
t' a or do-
t could not went to the doctrine that this was before mentioned, or any other act now exis. ins.,
government
dared, or enacted. If they recognised the obligation of the
but he expected one by the next messenger. Her Majesty's securities of the same provisos and indemnities. as in the ace.
a purely German question.
AN UNSTAMPED NEWSPAPER. Jew to take the oath and the obligation of parliament to
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD wished to ask the Chancellor of administer it—if they recognised the binding effect of their
the Exchequer whether the Board of Inland Revenue had own resolutions, enactments. and precedents, it followed
had it, attention called to the publication of an unstamped that they desired the right of altering the formula ot
sheet of the Times newspaper, containing a reprint of the the oath so as to comply with the exigencies of the
plan and description of the Great Eeliihition, originally law and the statute. They were bound to administer
published on the Ist and 2nd May ; and if so, whether steps the oath, and the Jew as well as all lath. r persons
had been taken to recover the stamp duties on the number was bound to take it as the condition for entering upon cer-
of copies issued, or to sue far penalties. fain political and civil rights and duties to which he was
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that entitled by law, but if they ruled that they were bound to
the attention of the Board had been called to the matter, administer it in a way in which they knew the Jew could
and when the Times proprietors were written to on the not take it, that would be an admission that the law had
subject they expressed their readiness to pay the stamp placed them in this anomalous position—that they were
duty. bound to act, but were unable to do so—and that the Jew
THE CAPE CONSTITUTION. was bound to take the oath under pain of certain serious
Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to a question from Mr. consequences and penalties, while it was so constructed that
Annentee, stated that the draft constitution for the Cape lie could not take it. (Hear.) He trusted the question of
of Good Hope would be sent out complete in all its details, law would now be brought back to the true ground on
and that it would combine the various suggestions that had which it ought to be debated, and that if necessary it would
been made upon the spot. It would not, however, contain be further considered by the aid of a committee. Ile had
any provision for effecting a separation between the two embodied what he had considered to be the true propos'.
proamees ; it would be left for the legislature of the colony lion in the words he had read, and which he now begged to
to consider such a separation. As to a change in the seat submit us an amendment to the noble lord's motion.
of government, that was a matter for the prerogative of the r he amendments having been put from the chair,
crown, in which the government would act according to The ATTORNEY GENERAL apprehended that their
the instructions received from time to time. duty on the present occasion was strictly a judicial one. They
REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL. were bound to protect the rights and privileges of the house,
In reply to Sir J. ['ARINGTON, who inquired whether and as far as they could those of the individuals in question;
the government would proceed with the Registration of but they must net judicially, according to the true construe-
Assurances Bill, to which there was considerable opposition, non, as far as they could ascertain it, of the actg. of par-
at that late period of the session, liamcnt. The simple question, as it appeared to him, was
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he felt greatly disappointed this:—The legislature has iug imposed a certain oath to be
at not being able to bring in the bill that evening. lie taken by every member before he sat and voted in tho
would state to-morrow or Thursday the course the house, which oath contained a certain form of words, wero
government meant to pursue with regard to it. those words intended ae a mere formal pan of the inci-
THE CASE OF !SIR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS. denre of the oath, or us an essential part of it ? He ad-
Mr. ANSTEY wished to know whether the letter which mitted that that question was not altogether free from ditfi-
the hon. member for Greenwich addressed to the Speaker, culty and doubt—(hear, hear)—but that was the question
complaining of the omission from the records of the house they had to decide. Thine who had contended that the
of the demand which he made to subscribe the oath of ab- wording of the oath might be moulded and modified from
4uration placed that matter sufficiently on its records, and, time to tune, to suit the circumstances of those by whom
if not, whether it was competent for him (Mr. Anstey) to it was to be taken, had hitherto otnittcd all reference
move that the hon. member should come to the table now, to the history of the oath, and the objects for
and that be be questioned at the table, in order that he which the legislature originally imposed it. But this was
might signify his reasons fur omitting the words, " on the an important element in the consideration of the question.
true faith of a Christian," namely, that he took the oath in (Hear, hear.) They found the oath is the first place iu tho
the form prescribed by the let and 2nd Victoria, which dis- statute ot the 3rd James I.—a statute passed immediately
tinguishe a his ease from that of Baron Rothschild ? after the great Gunpowder Plot—au act fur the better dis-
The SPEAKER said that the letter of the hon. member cowry of popish recusants. That oath, which was a cons-
for Greenwich was the best possible' record of his opinion hination of the present oath of allegiance and of the abjure-
on the subject. No further record of the proceedings could, tion oath, was introduced as a test of a man's religious be-
of course, be admitted till the hon. member was sworn at lief, and us a protection against the machinations of the Je-
the table of the house. suits. It was well known that the Jesuits were supposed at
After a few words from Mr. DISREALI, the time to have been the instigators of the Gunpowder
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Having held out the expects- riot. Those who had read the trial of Garnet would re-
tion to the house that those hon. members who take a cif- member that the greater part of the questions of Sir Edward
tercet view of the law them that which was taken last year Coke, who prosecuted, and of the commissioners, were di-
should have an opportunity of stating their opinions, meted to the supposed doctrine of the Jesuits in regard to
I now proceed to make the motion of which I have the sanctity of an oath—whether their doctrine was not that
given notice. The motion is, "That David Salomons, Esq., an oath might be taken by a Roman catholic under certain
is not entitled to vote in this house or to sit in this house circumstances with mental reservations, which would enable
during any debate until he shall take the oath of him to violate it afterwards. In fact, Garnet avowed that
abjuration in the form appointed by law." When this that was his view ; and that he believed if any person put
question was before us last year, the matter was so an oath to him that lie was not entitled to put, and tho
much debated, that I certaiuly shall not take keeping of which lie considered would be prejudicial to his
dt
omnour more
tothanrclounictee
thatt h l t
portion
abjurationm e ke
underavliic h
these
so wouldcircumstancesavoid
up ranch of its time on the question of law. religion, that he might take it with a mental reservation, by
it
haveiincumbent
stated
the obligationsstatute o fi t
Jamesiimposed. It
plats s7dag,
oath, "on the true faith of a Christian," to he taken, are to pmvent popish recusants sitting in parliament, and the
the acts quoted in the report of the committee which in- oath was framed as stringently as possible, in order that it
stinted into this point, namely the 10th Geo. 1. chap. 4, and might not be evaded. The latter part of the oath was
the 13 of Geo. 11, chap. 7. There are certain provisions remarkable for the stringency of its words, which, after
made with regard to Jews taking the oath; and it is stated declaring that the oath was taken according to the plain nose
in the first of them that whereas the following words con- of the words, without any mental reservation whatsoever,
tamed in the oath of abjuration, "on the true faith of a finished by saying, " I make this promise heartily, willingly,
Christian," arc objected to, it gees on to enact that they arc and faithfully, in the true faith of a Christian ;" the
in certain eases to be omitted. It was, I think, rightly con- object being to make the oath so binding on the con-
tended by the hon. and learned gentleman the member for sciences of Roman catholics that they could not evade it.
Abingdon (Sir F. Thesiger) that this is not an act of a per- (An hon. member : " What has that to do with it is) Ho
manent nature, referring to all persons who may have to referred to this to show that the legislature, when it framed
take the oath of abjuration, but a temporary act, referring the oath, and imposed the obligation to im it, intruded
to certain cases in which the oath is appointed to be taken. that the whole should be taken. It was most certainly in-
The second set, 13 Geo. 11., is " for naturalising persons tended as a religious test. The next statute on the subject was
who are settled, or who shall settle in any of his Majesty's the 20th of Charles 11., which was imposed to exclude
colonies in America ;" and there again the framers speak Jesuits from parliament. Next came the act 13th William
of the oath, and say, " Whereas the following words are 111., and they all knew that that was passed fur the Fur-
contained in the latter part of the oath of abju- pose of keeping Roman catholic, out of parliament and out
ration." Now, it certainly appears to me, that if of power, and in passing it parliament took the act of
parliament thought it necessary, in order to enable James I. as its model, and introduced the same words into
Jews in certain casts to take the oath without those the oath, the opinion still T with d th •doe-
prevai ing regal to 4. words, that an act of parliament should be pasaed for that trine and intentions of the Jesuits. Then, he contended, it
purpose ; it follows an a consequence that where parliament was clear the legislature intended the words in question
has made no such provision, the oaths must be retained. should form part of the oath, and in this the CON: under
Without gulag into any further argument on the subject, I consideration was distinguished from those which had been
own that I have felt the strength, of this; argument to be referred to by the hon. and learned member, where so lung
such that I am unable to come to the conclusion that we did as a man took the oath in substance he might mould and
in the case of Mr. Pease, and to say that the words may be modify the form in such a way as should be most binding
omitted. Some members of this house hare made it
a upon his conscience. The question in this caw was whether
question how it was possible that we should have admitted the words " on the true faith of a Christian " were matter
Mr. Pease to take his seat in this house, and not have of form or of substance. That was what they hail to decide,
allowed Baron Rothschild to take his beat. (Hear, hear.) and he confessed when he looked at the history of the oath
Certainly I was inclined, until • coannittee sat upon the and th objec
t of the statutes by which it was imposed, he
subject, to think the house might have been in error with could not bring himself to consider other than that tho
respect to the admission of Mr. Pease; but I must say that legislature did intend that the words should form a sub-
very great distinctions were pointed out between the state stantial and essential part of the oath. But it had been
of the law which existed witli regard to Quakers when Mr. said there is a subsequent statute that alters that—the 6th
Pease came to take his seat, and the state of the law as re- Geo. 111., which the hon. and learned member (Mr. 13ethell)
gents Jews when Baron Rothschild came to take his seat. said enabled the oath to be taken with all the immunities
Without going into any further questions or arguments on and indulgences of the previous statutes then in force the subject, I think it ill clear that by the 20th Geo. 11. all lie admitted that that was so. No man could have a. persons who were required to administer oaths had the greater respect for the opinion of the hon. and learned
power of administering, in the case of Quakers, an afilrma- member for Aylesbury than he (the Attorney-General) had,
tion. There is no such general law with regard to the but then that hon. gentleman was fallible, and, in the pro-
Jews. I complain of that state of the law ; I think it a seat instance, there was very little doubt that he had made
very great hardship upon the Jew; but there is a clear a most grievous mistake. how, the 9th Geo. 1., after re-
difference between the state of the law when Mr. Pease citing that the safety of the throne was endangered by
came to take his seat and the state of the law when Baron Jesuit and Roman catholic plots and consp' i s, and that
Rothschild came to take his scat. As I do not intend to therefore it became essential to ascertain thee number of
dwell any further on the subject, I will now move—" That
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TmeatT, JULY 22. Roman catholic" in the country and the property of which
David Salomon", Esq, is not entitled to vote in this house, they were seedenacted
pone , that all persons should take
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly after 12 o'clock. or to sit in this home during any debate until he shall take the oaths of allegiance and abjuration. In the subsequent
The St. Andrew's and Quebec Railway Bill was read a the oath of abjuration in the form appointed by law." year it was found that the Jews were placed in this difficulty
third time and passed. Mr. ANSTEY said he had looked in vain in the speech —that, whereas they anxious take these
PUBLIC BUSINESS, were to
of the noble lord for reasons to justify his resolution. The words "on the true faith of a Christian" interposed
PETITIONS PRESENTED. only act under which Quakers could now sit in that house an impediment to their doing so. The legislature CRTSTAL PALACE.—By Mr. LOCKHART, from Selkirk; was one Passed since Mr. Pease took his seat, in that year granted a further indulgence of time
Kr. T. EGERTON, from Chester; in favour of the preset- It originated with the government, and was proposed to the Roman catholics, and enacted that the
vstion of the Crystal Palace. merely with the view of making the practice of the two Jews might take the oath of abjuration omitting
LOCAL REGISTRATION OF DEEDS—By Mr. BROTHER- houses uniform. The hon. member for Greenwich had the words "on the true faith of a Christian." If the cow-
TON (10), from various building societies of Manchester I asked to have the vacation submitted to the proper legal mon law ran concurrently with the statute law if no sta-
sal sword, In favour of a system of local registration of ! authorities, and he (51r. Annoy) could not understand why tutory oath was to be moulded andmodified— tie' by s
dewls• the government had refused that appeal. The noble lord operation of the common law, so to. adapt it to the con-
THE CASE OF ERNEST CHARLES JONES. said—he (Mr. Atutey) knew not on what authority—that science of the party taking it—whata . `
necessity was there for
Lord D. STUART called the attention of the house to the when parliament had legislated in a specific manner he was this last statute. (Hear, hear.) Then there was the stituto
caw of Mr. Ernest Charles Jones, as stated in his petition to , bound to conclude that at common law there was no general with regard to naturalizing Jews in our Ame •
man colonies,
the house on the 26th of May last, and moved for copies of 1 power going beyond the letter of the act. The noble lord andprovidingthat the
Jew might have the benefit of that
all tales and regulations which, at any time from the year I was, he believed, mistaken. The common-law right and act, taking the oath of abjuration without the words "upon
1134 e to the present time, have been in force within the 1 the statutory right existed together unless there were words the true faith of a Christian." Where, according th
to 0
several prisons in England and Wales, so far as they might I in the act abolishing the common law right. He asked the argument now raised, was the necessit for that statute ?
affect prisoners convicted of political offences. Mr. Ernest ; house to postpone the decision of a question which they (H • ) Then there yVictoria relied
car. was the lot and 2nd of
Jones, a barrister of some ability, and author of several I were clearly inadequate to settle, and to refer it to on; but that did not allow an oath prescribed by statute in
works in verse and prose, having been convicted of sedition, 1 of competent jurisdiction ; and with that view he asheuenujil had Seen sentenced to two years' imprisonment, and his move as en amendment the omission of all thewords ariKirdtacular form to be altered at pleasure. It only pro-
allegations were, that during his imprisonment he had been in the noble lord's first resolution. The g ' that if a man took an oath, demanding to tat,. at in
subjeted to unjustifiably harsh, oppressive, and degrading meat would not consent that the Attorney-General
overn- a particular form, he should be bound by it, and liable to
treatment. A striking peculiarity in the case was, that Mr. should prosecute, therefore he called the penalties in case of perjury. For some men, to evade
Jones had been most unconstitutionally prevented by the to interfere and direct the on the house the sanction of an oath, would say a certain form was binding
prosecution to issue. That alone by their religion when it was nut. (Hear.) .ts for Mr.
magurates from fulfilling his desire to petition the House was the way in which a satisfactory *elution of the question P 'there series
Pease 's case, was a whops of statutes relating to
of Cossatous for redress of the heavy grievances to which he could be arrived at. (Hear, hear.) The amendment he Quakers. 7 and 8 William 111. substituted a declaration for

......; ostrich ; . ---- a. _ e
wee, they would soon find '.hat fresh claims would be minister. intents._ _ e , . —.use he thought is _
tut forward. He knew t'emt the Ramesh religien was worthy of the high character which parliament had long that the Popes ne— ignerred the'Anglican church. Why ell
hangtable snit al U. tolerant now as it ever had sustained, bat that measure had undergone a great course the Po ignored the Anglican church • to re
ken, liege at Intend, and its effects upon that coon- change, most stringent clauses having been added that church would be to acknowledge that his ownrcellatesk
tty. The catholic' tiatre were unable to avail them- during its passage through the other house. Under to supremac-f were an imposition and a delusion. The
whoa of the adva.stages of national education became the Roman Catholic Relief Act the Attorney- lone offence oc the Pope in parcelling out the kingdom foe
the Bible was r;dowe to be read in the schools ; and cal
could alone prosecute, bet the bill in its altered ecelesiestical purposes, and in ignoring the Anglican
d
the Queen"s colleges, which were established to conciliate shape would enable other parties to exercise that church, could by no logic be construed into any greater
the members of the Itomish church, had failed to do so. power. In his opinion, if the alight amendment had offence than that of which the Wesleyans were guilty
The priest% were afraid that education wool.' soon lead the been effected in one of the clauses of the Emancipation in arranging the country into their circuits. It was no
wilds to break the fetter' by which they had been so long Act, a better measure than the present might have been greater offence than that committed by the religious
lemma. Nevertheless, he had watched the progress of pro- produced, for .at was a measure which would create, body to whom the noble Lord Chamberlain (the Marquis
test .ntims in Ireland, and he was sure that, if against the Attorney-General, an amount of pressure& as
from of Breadalbane) belonged, who when they ecceded
th.ere was freedom from the persecution which the
d. without which no public functionary could be expected to from the established church of Scotland, did not hesitate to
&mesh church carried on, hundreds and thousan e resist. Ilefg echoed, - also obj'eeu.d to the bill because the preamble parcel the country out into districts for their own purposes.
of Roman catholics would come over to the asserted a
a no real insult had ever been Ile (the Duke a Newcastle) had been dealing with the
pent stant faith. With reference to the act of aggression intended by Rome, and because the bill would not operate question upon the presumption of the efficacy of the bill.
which the bill before the house was intended to meet, he on the Romish establishment, but against the Roman He had assumed throughout that the biiclnel,twhocopuponsecldonbe,tibeaporlr:bmediu
felt wince! of the inadequacy of that bill. lie would catholic subjects of the Queen ;he must, therefore, give his iunpatonetffhaectt.
ult..tle wptotunlnd,
inßutthehefiwrioturdia,
defy any man to point to any country where so daring an cordial support to the amendment.
Lieyhandd. oppose the bill even though assured that it was the inten-
se of aggression had ever been offered as that of which the
buThtehDaituks.epopaf Netyth-CeAbSiuTuLpoll
tion to render it when passed utterly inefficacious. He
Pape had beets guilty towards this country. No greater ref, r
ara
ii
b.
Walt could have been offered to this country than the out speech. If ntrhterceßineduanntdshacatwthLohoilierdleslchurch could imagine nothing more socially and politically danger-
statement that proteatant England was ready to become had Olerways
.been intolerant,the state of our law.
edwhuicul: . oinuesitthiann
the
ee
sptaastsuitneghooofbla.wsowtheaici,i
hear.)wer intAeln.hdeestlhetropluiet
catholic. It hail been said that the appointment of masted in 1,91 should to this hour are remain
batboy., in °Twomey WV 114. i' et's% for the proper adrni- changed. Suppose that the Roman catholic., instead of into force or not, it would remain the fertile source
nietration of the affairs of h.• mists church in this treating the measure as a dead letter and setting it at sle• of offence and insult to our Roman catholic fellow-subjects.
country ; but he de nie,l the truth of this detcmcat alto fiance, were to represent
titeeretrtothseeripPto.pe, and that (Hear, hear.) And, moreover, if not passed, it would ope-
-
and cancel rate to degrade the dignity of parliament. (Hear, hear.)
first fir all the
tether, and cont. nil. il that the vicars apostolic were sul- the lope were e " withdraw
the
waits of that church. The no e the appenntments madeby it, in what position would the A noble lord (Lord Beaumont) had said that he looked on
earl (who throughout was very indistinctly heard) was Roman catholic church stand ? Why, her former position, the bill in the light of a protest only. But was ever yet a
this ant, t...it/At to condemn the Earl of !dialect's miss they were uold, wa alike uatenable—herviewanhaatpzitoeltiief
npmatitcestt
'on of were Sion illegal. In this state of matters, ?pewed(lleaw:,iiehheirr.)k the
ed
shthaePenoofbireproridngeokenasevyntPeto-
I"kthe Bitoiliolllfiegwhkuir;k akneildhrel'ailevtoe
vied hied gieen the lame great encouragement to do what the
elb'thaint the noble. could the Rennin. . catholic church derive from returning to guarantee to the parties protested against protection from
system of vicars apostolic? Hitherto the consent of the penalties imposed? Were there before their lordships
he hail done. Enonsragement had, however, without the crown had not been considerednecessary in reference to a real protest, in a genuine form, such as his noble friend
doubt, been given from another quarter—he meant a party the appointment of Roman catholic dignitaries. In Ire- (the Earl of Aberdeen) had suggested, none would be
in the church of England who were leaning towers', Rome, land, appointments hail been made from time to time, and found more ready than he (the Duke of Newcastle) tosupport 1
been asked, and had it. he might be asked if he objected to any interference
60111 of whom hail gone over to that church, and he could the consent of the crown had not
ry. The noble and learned lord with the exercise of the functions of the Roman catholic
only 5.0.),, WoUII to Gal, they all had. (Hear, hear.) never been bought n
d -o
thte".''l second clause of the hill, and had church in these kingdoms? He would answer—certainly
Nowt what was the measure to which they
were
had
drcenninentef the isno of the Attorney-General, not. Let them prove to him that the freest and fullest
when to give their assent? It was, in his estima- complained of
rejoiced
lion, a mud conts mptible and paltry thing, and would , joienedmthat Isthe legislature was now about exercise of religious freedom by the Roman catholic% in-
be a dyad titter, and treateol with "oven ign con- to speak, and that the fourth clause of the Emanci- fringed upon social order, or upon the general freedom
tempt by the parties against whom '1 t was stirs:o,l. It was potion Act was to be enforced. If this course was and independence, and he would be as ready as any man
a wretched attempt, by a few pounds, shillings, and pence, to the pursued, he (the Duke of Newcastle) regretted that to interfere. The increase of religious houses in Great
to needle:lw the insulted honour of the sovereign and the it had not bean earlier thought of, for the catholics had Britain had been spoken of. He saw no danger in
charach rof the pwould people. Ile neither vote for nor been led to believe that every successive government in that. If those establishments wen improperly conducted,.
against the hill before their lemlshita, because he thought it tended to treat the fourth clause of the act a leen as a dead in reference to the civil or monkeyed law, or the general m-
enu utterly seaworthy of the otsjeetit professed to have in letter. Ile did not hesitate to say that he viewed with tends, he would urge interference with them ; but he
it
vie w— bemuse did not sufficiently vindicate the honour gnat alarm the possibility of any prosecutions sbein insti- would not interfere until that fact wag made clear. He
awl 'bendy of the crown, nor do justice to the insulted tuted in Ireland under the authority of this & g
bill or under hailalready
i stated that he complained frankly of the error
fading, of the protest-nit people of this Treat country. the act of 1129, for they would be regarded by the people of the Pope n avoiding direct communication with the
remark of British government of the intention to take these measures.
Lord LYN DILI. it I', who spoke with great difficulty, of Ireland as insulting and vindicative. (
e complained of thelanguage of the resenp , and,
trusted he should be able to satisfy their lordship. the noble duke led to a distinct denial oniletreheapitrtof the H. also
before he sat down that the course which he had Hamill. of Clunricarde that Archbishop Murray had ever still more, he complained that Cardinal Wiseman, a
in ' I toleration to the Roman assumed the title of Archbishop of Dublin.) Now, fur what 'dent among us, and having the feelings and pre-
hitht do punned .eltocating free
catholic., and their full participation in all the privilege. were they called upon to enact this bill, and on what judices of the people, should not in his official
and liberties enjoyed by their fellow subjects WM nut at del his noble and learned friend (Lent lay' ndhurst), and documents, have used language which while answer-
all at variance or inammistent with the course which his noble friend who bail preceded him, base
t theirt. _sup- ing his
Whe 'ended to pursue that eveninit in supporting port of this measure ? If it were to be ~ ,s el el in a gitation from which so much mischief had proceeded.
the sewed nailing. (dear, hear.) Th.• bill, then, divided the light of security it must be as a seenrity to the (Hear, hear.) This complaint was a national coin-
iteelf into two parts: the tint being declaratory of the established church. Now, he was
.prepared to act in a plaint_ ;
Dukeana at _ the meeting of parliament it_wott'lain
existina law, rued the a-road—to a certain extent, at all matter of this kind on the priseotes f Inherent hes (the of Newcastle's) opinion,have sufficed if the
and
by resolution or otherwise, had recorded
events- enacting a new law. The noble lord who hail in- policy and with reference to the interests of all classes of the
e 1
, 1 repented ted that expression of attachment to
trodneeol th.• rnewinre to their lordships had confined his community; but if it were the proper place, he should fehl. itsp efisrolattekstre,
the p testannt religionr
which had already been heard so
attention almost entirely to the enacting part, end bad deposed to place his opposition on the grounds of his attar
distinctlyro throughout the country. His Note against the
parwel over the amine and re ally the substantial part of the meat to the established church of this country, and he was
eadin would begiven protest • t this bet
as a regains
hill. The pnanible stated that liven other Majesty Alterman confident that in seeking security in a measure of this kind second r g
catholic subjects hail itesumell the titles of certain pm- the interests of the church itself were not prom
oted. The step backward. (hear.)
tended el lofauthority from the we of interests of the church were directiv at variauce with any- Tho Marquis of CLANRICARDE said if the Pope
seer, tin 41 11/ our
Rome. purportiva to he given to them by certain briefs, thing which might place in jeopardy the rights and privi- of Rome could have heard the noble duke, who heel.
tsat down, talk of this as a matter that could be
and spesitleally by a brief dated at Rome in &peens. leers of any claws of our fellow countrymen, Of whatever tee
by . , .
Ur, 1610. Then it went on to state that the religious persuasion. (Hear.) It hail been said that the meta vote of parliament, he was afraid that his Bali-
attempt to establish such igen ndeil woes without Queens supremacy hail been assailed by the act of the Der would . . not entertain a very exaltedopinion of the 'eerie-
the authority of the crown was illegal and void, and Pope. He would not go over the ground troth;by(Laughter.) 11 said
dative sagacity of this country. lout, the
that such briefs theniaelves were likewise illeoal and void. his noble. friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) as to noble duke, this was not an attack upon the rights of the
It went on turtle rto say that all jurioliction, all authority, what the Queen's supremacy was, hut he had a right crown, because it was not a kcal act. Now, really if that
and all 'weer ath united to he contrived by such illegal to my that the Queen's supremacy could only attach to the was a valid argument, how could any prerogative: of the
brava were also illegal and soil ; and it tenoned, therefore, church established by law in this country, and had no juris- crown be assailed, seeing that all attempts of that escrip-
he illegal ? (Hear, hear.) Agent,
as a natural comers nonce, that the jurialiction itself was elictioa over the 'Gomm catholic church except in civil mat- lion mast of ,
necessity
dale n between ail in
illegal unit loud. In the ether house of parliament this do- ten. The reseript had claimed no ecclesiastical jurialic- the noble duke saw no _ e
_peer
in thin
claratory clause heel been intrmluctsl at a lat.. period of the tion, enforced no authority over any persons except those himself a bishop, and he bishopl
n a particular
r paceold a
discussion, awl by. way of amendment; en that it hail not who voluntarily submitted to its provisions; and he was country;but surelyth t them
abbe oni": all. distinction,
The act of the
been as fully coasselered as the other parts of the bill; but then-fore at a loss to conceive how it hail been so often
,wide distinction, must.
he apprehended that the bare statement of what he had laid urged that the Queen's supremacy was assailed. Therethat would not be in
I ope was an assumption
down would he siffliCient. Ile eppealest to his noble and woo a great difference between a mural and a legal claim, country throughout Europe, and riet noble lords came there
learned iris nil upon the woolsack, awl to his other noble and the Pope had ouly assumed a moral claim. . ear, and said it was no matter at a (H hear.) Tsen,
snot learned friends in that house, whether what he had They were toad, again, that the Queen's prerogu- again, there was no parallel
whatever between
'
Mahal did not necessarily follow? (lime, hear.) A foreign tine at the fountain of honour, had been assailed, and this case and that of the Scotch dioceses or
prows- leaeseest of spintual and temporal power had imaged it was on this ground that the noble marquis (the Marquis Wesleyan districts, as must be apparent to all, unless
an Onlinsatoe or edict appointing biehopries and conferring of Lansdowne) had noted the whole of his argument. But they agreed to ignore all history. (Hear, hear.) But it
various territorial juriedictions. This he hail followed up surely his noble friend would admit that titles we, of two wan argued that because they had given great encourage-
by :wanting is lamest., flow,. bishopric, and giving them an kinds. There Were tele.
'which, everyone of their lordships meets to the l'ope they had no right to protest against his
reek seedierl and spiritual authority, with the view of in- possessed, which were of course derives' alone from the recent aggression. That argument he (the noble marquis)
traducing a code of laws unknown to this country—'cheers) Queen, and attempts to infringe on which had been hooked totally denied. Surely the fact that they had been ready
—a esele of laws which bad been attempted Vibe introduced on with great jealousy. But there were ale, other titles— to extend every indulgence to the Roman catholic§ COnsill-
tlwWll4 re. but which had been universally repudiated. title, which wen. rather than anything else the designation tent with the rights of the crown, the established church,
(Renewal cheers.) Ili. objeat was evidently that those of offices held by individuals, anal these titles he thought and the feeling of this protestant country, was the very
per. els should unite in a eonasheatione for the purpow of could only be derived from those who apaointed the officers. reason why. the l'ope ought not to have offend to us thus
opposing any renewers owe:anat.d or carrier' by the leTiels- Such was the position in which the Roman catholic gratuitous insult. (Hear, hear.) There were some noble
Inc.- which they ;night think touched upon their spiritual bishops in this country we-re placed. They by no nienwi lords who doubted that there was any danger to be aepre-
power, or whale might he iucenvenient to the exercise of came under the application of the first description heeded from the Roman court ; but such he recommended
their power. (Hear, ho-ar.) Teas onlinance or edict was of titles he had referred to. The Queen could not appoint to read the papers neently laid upon the table of their lord-
eninnedi il and kennel, not by the- authority of the Pepe Roman catholic bielimn, neither could she confer on them ships' house, respecting the communications of that court
alone, but by a (emoted of foreign ecelesimities. (Cheers.) their titles, and how then had her Majesty's prerogative, with Spain. The court of Rome had 'towed modes of ope-
Then a person who had been raised to the dignity of a car- come to be invaded ? But the Roman catholic hag not ration against any government to which it was op-
dinal cone int., this coantry, wearing that title without the stood alone, Ile conceived the episcopal bishops in scot- pored, but the most effective of these was to
authority of the Queen, taksug pamoveion of his see, and land occupied a similar position. They, however, were to endeavour to sow discont amongst those by whom
publishing the ordinance of the Puma withmst the least be lonots*Cted by . clause of this measure, and although he they were resisted. For instance, the i'ope hail altered
regard or attentioneither to the parliament or the sore- rejoiced that tlicy were to be protected he must at the same the mode of appointing his archbishops in Ireland
reign cal this country. (Hear, hear.) lie (the noble lord) time say that he looked on that clause as a com- and immediately afterwards the synod of Thurles was held,
would ask whether oath (onetime as this was not a direct plete stultification of the whole bill. (Hear, hear.) But at which it was agreed to condemn institutions that the
violation of the iudepoondenee of the nation, and whether any would the provisions of this bill deal with ltoman catholic, resist respectable of their body had aces-ptsd with gratitude.
lawyer. or any coueututional writer, or any man of corn- alone ? He firmly believed they would not. lie knew This step was followed by the insult which had called for the
non esti... could say that this act was auy other than idle- the risk he run in hazarding en opinion on a law: but measure before the house, and which left no doubt as to the
gal and void. ((hires.) he Was sure that his noble and he would submit to his noble and learned friend motives of the papal policy. Still the gavernment Mel not
laerned friends would not dissent from the opinions which whether the revival of these laws would not extend to wish to take any step that was a bit stronger than the eye.
he hod refire...el. (lies.', hear.) What the clause de. an inclusion of all the purposes for which they had been gemies of the Case required; and he for one regretted the
eland to lk• the law of Erighwel, hail been so from the originally designed and enacted, and whether the time amendment which had been introduced into the bill he
earliest time; ;and the right of the mown in this matter hail might not arrive when the dissenter from the ehoreh—even another place. For that amendment the House of Cum-
never horn disputed. Maytag referred to instances in that respectable body the Wesleyans--would tremble for mons and not the government must be held responsible.
which such meuniption of power on the part of the Pope had the effect which them laws would produce. Ile thought it (('heers.) For his own port, he hail the utmost con-
Nan resided hugs at home and abroad, the noble not impossible that, as they had in days gone by, the Puri- hdeuce in the loyalty of the Roman catholics, and
lord Viol that he did a." approve of quoting tans might en some future day tremble for the consequences he was convinced that if it had been possible to have re-
the law of Richard 11. os to prentootze. adonveer, of laws like these. The l'ope had sent these rescripta, but he strained the popular indignation within due limits, they
,if it was nova to go back to the statute had not sent them in his capacity as the sovereign would have joineel in that indignation. (Cheers.) The
of itsehard 11., it was wholly unneetweary, inasmuch asof a foreign state, but as the head of the !Loraine recent act of the Pope was an insult that would have been
both by Our common hew and h y the rublit• law of Europe catholic church all over the world, wherever that church tolerated in no other country, whether protestant or catho- I
the., arts against which the I bil was elineteel, were intm/ existed. Dist the noble marquis mean to say that two years lie ; and theretare it would not do to tell them that it was
and void, Neither diet he he aptwove of what was called ago, when the Pope was an exile from his dominions, that an imaginary affront. (Cheers.)
Lsher's ease. They were agreed to admit views apostolic, there was no longer a sovereign power, and that, if had Lord MONTEAGLE looked upon the bill as a gross
but that ease went to [gore that they, equally with bishops, then sent thew reseripts here, the act would not have bean combination of blunders and injustice. The interference of
were illegal Ana void. (Clusena Besides, in that case, tolerated? Why, the Pope had on more than our occasion the Pope he was not prepared to defend, but no man could
than' was no judg,.w sutssmin,t up, but there was an elabo- been stripped of his temporal sovereignty, but had still con- euceessfully defend the blunder of mooing laws against our
rate oprech of the attorney, whirls he never could tinned to exercise his functions as the head of the Itoman own fellow-subjects to avenge a wrong inflicted by a foreign
hate delivered in a court of justice. (Hear, bear.) catholic church. He felt he was detaining their lordships potentate, and nothing could he more unjust than to
He now tunnel to the provisien which had been too long, and would not therefore enter upon the other punish the innocent in a case where the guilty could not be
intreduceel into the new law. By the Iklief Bill questions which had been touched by hie noble and learned reached. He doubted, however, whether any government
lictudeita were attached to the siasemption of the titles of friead. But this much he must. say; his firm bs lief wee, would fled it expedient to institute prosecutions under this
real sees, rad, surely, that was and lortivri mason why they that is no country in the world had there been exerched hill, since no one government, from the ministry of the
should also be applied to the allinttilotion of the titles or pre- such proliihinory power against the reseripts of the Pope for Duke of Wellington to that of Lord John Russell, had ever
teaded sees. (Hear, heat) At prasent the carrying spiritual porpoises as was now propeenl to be enforced here ventunel to prosecute order the provision, of the Roman
out of the law was left in the hand. Of the government, hat by her Iltit'o7.B go'crunteut• Meats hear.) The noble Catholic Rehef Act. The penal proviaioa of thatmeasure had
though the act hail been iufringed to a conederable eatenmargin* said that the functioaa of the Roman catholic often been regarded as a joke and a farce; he warned the
in Ireland Ito attempt had been made to enforce its prohibi- church had been heretofore effectually administered by house, therefore, to beware how they repeated that farce,
tie n. Tho Attorney-Orneral had been slumbering on his Mean-apostolic. But teat was a question entirely for the even under the guidance of her Majesty's servants, who
past, and therefore. he (the noble lord) thought the pm• eenside nation of Boman catholic* themselves, and if they seemed to be astonishingly ignorant of the RIM of eviderece
rot. el new easement was a very proper one. (Hear, hear.) thought that those functions had not been satisfactorily which existed to show that Roman catholic prelates must
li ' law noble lord) had taken a prominent tsar( in pre- performed they had a perfect right, so long as they be appointed bathe Pope, and that from him alone they
paring and intreklueing the act of 1129, which he did not infringe upon the rights and prerogative could derive their authority. In support of this position
and his cone agues then thought was a measure not of the crown and the religious privileges of other he quoted largely from the reports of the committees of both
only of justice, hat one that, nstudelering the state parties to make any alteration they pleued in the internal house..., and contended that Roman catholic prelates being
of fireland aial the state of lowlier' in the other discipline of their church. It was by no means a new thing as much Christian bishops as those of the established
_ , was absolately necessary. But he wags eatisfied to make a change from vicars apostolic to bishops. S'ican church, he could not understand the policy or the justice
then that tolerathm would Defer satisfy the 11-'man catho- apostelie could be morel at the sole will of the Pope,of attempting to d
lies. Cheers ' • at any
.. destroy the Roman catholic hierarchy in
t a I hey wished fur toleration for the per. moment be chose, while bishops, when once appointeJ, either portion of the United Kingdom. In the Irish par-
pose of tlaemaelvesfnma the inconvenience of those could only be moved by the process of the canon law. The tion of it. he feared that the passing of the bill would he the
laws, to make et the stepping stone towards the attain- noble duke, after alluding with regret to the spread, not signal for a renewal of that
agitation from which they had
swat of power ; but the principle itself the repudiated only in this country, but abroad, of ultra montane "mei- fora time happily escaped.
with coin/lupe. ((Cheers.) In the Popes a letter mints, asked, if the true system of the government of the The LORD CHANCELLOR attributed to the man-
to the bishops of Belgium, he declared that there had been Raman catholiechureh wenassumed, • la
some talk " altahlishiag end enarantecing liberty of con- that church was the bill aimed? Was •
againsttwthi:tehairhyilief nee in which the government had expressed their
Wiens's'. but that it woo an aliened and erroneous doctrine— would call the English ,o againisrtiraitns which he would feeling
regarding
•reg that rescript, the satisfaction of the
• wild notion which his holiness rejected with disdain. call the Roman party? He thought that the effect of the bill country. with so moderate a measure. (Hear, sear.) The
(Chem a Nothing but ascendancy and domination would ever would, not intentionally of con but practically, restrictions placed on the catholic, had at first been die-
m, militate tated more on political than 1. • satisfy the Roman catholic% and it was becao.e hr looked against th , English party . . religious grounds. A. time
e and operate favourably for the however, wore on, all that related to the political part oi
upon this as the first step towards that end that he gave Rom party. The contest between the • system of episco- the question disappeared. The catholic '• - • his cordial support to this bill. (Hear, hear.) The Ronasui pacy2annel that of ricers apostolic had been going - conferred , had civil rights
catholies huh shot kept their promise. When the Retie the' days Elizabeth •
.f Act mete of . His noble and learned friend
on ever on them, and no belief existed in the minds of
nine beton. • - it the majority of the public that they
_would abuse the • parliami•ut was narrowly examined and had told them, as they had often been told before, that the ti e Fitch had been done lue-
eritieiwil. and they had expresseel their SatisfaCtiOn with it. Roman church was unchanged andunchangeable. If cw • those. The old spirit of the
They bad even astialltlYi to the securities, or fancied seen- he couldunderstand how ' not
so, catholic church, however, had again appeared on the su
that the policy of face. The longing of the clergy after powerand dominionr.
cities, for the established church, which had been vicars apostolic should have been for
two hundred years had again manifested itself,
introduced into the measure, and, therefore, they identified with the policy of the and this rescript was a step in
pal government, and the direction of satisfein their Were not justified iu making this outcry. ( Loud cheers.) that now it should be changed and ruperaged by The mask had -if ambition. (Hear. hear.)
An act of rarliament was paused for thepurpose of ester- the appointment of bisho The noble lord
An
co kg,. in Iraind
the , . at the head tempted to establish a hierarchy in England; and if that
coun for awhile ranks in that of the government in 1811 had stated that his policy hierarchy had been allowed
to be established here, the
try. Every care was taken, as he could vouch, to pre- would he to put the Anglican church, the presbyterian Roman
vent any objection on the ground of religion. Every guard church of Scotland, and the Ronan catholic church, catholic' would then
have asked why they allowed
was inserted in that bill to rev • t
either on one aide or the p to a system of proselytism footing of perfect equality in every respect ; and so lately 3/ (Hear.) He would not enter into any
other. Nothing coul I be ment with the noble I
fairly vonsiotered than all the details e more 1846 he had said that the Roman eatholies would not be earl (the Earl of Aberdeen) as to the Queen's supre v I
most beneficent measune But this of that bill. It was a satisfied without bishops. The noble lord, and also the but this he would say, that the Queen -h mu',
was an unwelcome pro- noble lord at the head of was head of i
arch' to the see of item,. On theelection r the colonial department, had all the courts that related to ecclesiastical matter, in this •
archbiehop tee pa._ -
ylactioa.
orid a Y• departed from the ordinary mode' of one had a right to expect such a measure as with courts of justice established in it, and with e c um
' r to Ireland w •
lead fur what e
? as raised to the office. this would be peopled by the present government. at the head of these courts, and a fore' w the Queer
was
necessary
to won..
how
convened a mama It The whole principle of the argument in favour of the bill in and had presumed to exercise the lizwor er had stepped
who had aPProaeol of the rof parcelling . Roman catholic bishops rested on the supposed illegality of the Assumption by all England and giving it an ecclesiastical •
be silenced On by a redelles and who were to Roman catholic prelates of territorial titles. Now, it was and government. Of what kind? Consistenesttablishment
nounced against the colle.. majority tiy:;ond. The
fi aned. joro- an undoubted fact that in all times since the Christian era •. existence of the established church and her Maje:rtyLt'ks pthree 1 '
sion. and the result was that the benefit which won eci- it had been the custom of bishops to designate themselves aa rotative Certainly not. Let them look to this term, of* 1
accrued to the middle classes of Ireland from d have bishops of the chief city or county of their diocese. A the rescript, and they would find that its lang was such
had been totally lost. These instan were beatthe
colleges notable illustration of the reason of this custom R 9/ fur- as implied the sweeping away of the church altogether .
it wool,' be well to keep in view. Th which Dished in the Dublin Cemeteries Bill, the set so often re- The ekarcb bad returned to the Pope to have a complete ,
catholic clergy endeavoured in these e Rea", timed to. This bill had been taken charge of in the establishment. The old establishment was restored, • co to a& Ottor and it I
tablish Roman catholic professors, and nevi at. hew hy an honourable gentleman whose political was declared that all attempts against it were null and void. i
Mined their object of making them Roman
catholic r !ziples were distinctly different from his (the Duke of And there were some who said that this was no insult to i
colleges. The government obtained some knowledge of
91 o wattles). in that hill, however, the phew occurred our church, nor any invasion of the prerogative of the I
the
this ; they pursued it, and found out the whole h • Homan Catholic Archbishop of Dublin,"—and the crown. Why, it was a maxim in law,
sc eme. rightprelate• that any attempt to ,
The system was aimov en: d, and they prevented its being . _ u was so detonated simply because it would I assume that which the crown alone had power to nave been grant, i
tterly impossible, without the most absurd was an Illegal assumption. A hodof 7 men could not e'en I

occasion should require. The law would be enough unless
the impression should be made that parliament was not pre-
pared to do their duty. If the catholic clergy saw they
had the power to arrest legislation fur the protection of the
church of England and the prerogative of the crown, rapid
advances, indeed, might be expected, but he trusted that
the bill would pass by such a majority as would render in-
nocuous those cheers and speeches which would sometimes
seem to indicate that parliament was not prepared to do
its duty. (Hear, bear.) He denied that at was part of
the religious liberty of England that a religion should
be allowed the fullest development according to its
character. Why, the Inquisition wan a part of
the development of the Roman catholic religion, and
was that to be admitted here? (Cheers.) So persecution
was essential to its perfect development; and was that to
be allowed in this country ? Ile dal not undervalue tolera-
tion; but even toleration could only be allowed to an ex-
tent consistent with the public safety, and toleration was a
word prostituted in the lips of the Pi.rde. The noble and
learned lord then proceeded to ileserihi the substantial dif-
ference between bishops territorial and. bishops in partibus.
lle showed the necessity of resisting the appointment of
territorial bishops, because' they wo aid claim jurisdiction
over temporal matters, inasmuch raa the aim was to admi-
nister affairs coming under the h cads of wills, marriages
and divorces, settlements, &c., ac cording to the canon law
—a
law not admitted in this country. As regarded what
might be the course hereafter n eceitsary, all he had to say
was, that if the catholic clergy baoke thu law, when passed I
- they attempted to raise re ritation and rebellion, and
took a course of defiance nu') tst this law—his trust was,
that parliament would not hos aide to pass such other laws
as in that case would be rend seed necessary. (Cheering.)
Ile believed that this bill was demanded by the public inte-
rests, nail he believed it wo old he a great dereliction of
public duty if their lordships refused to assent to it, and to
pass it iu such a manner as to evince a national determi-
nation to deal with this apicstion at, the serious circum-
stances demanded. (Ch sees.)
The Earl of ST. GErs.MANS was by no means satisfied
with the speech of the Lord Chancellor, marked as it was
by sentiments which he little expected to hear front the lips
of a whig minister '.O the present age. He was an attached
memher of tho eatablished church, hut he could not ignore
the existence of five or six millions of Roman catholic sub-
jects of the Queen. After re-stating the main arguments
against the bill, the noble lonl said that as a member of a
protestant community, he wished to see the influence of
the court of Rome weakened, and for that reason he wished
that the papal rescript hail been carried out. They had yet
no clear information as to the scope of the bill ; the people
of Ireland had a right to know whether it would torah
-
date all the acts of their bishops. The Queen.,
no one could deny, was the fountain of honour. But ho-
nours were borne by citizens of this country not conferred
by her majeaty—as instance the Baron Rothschild. (" Hear,
hear," and laughter.) But the title of bishop was not a title
of honour. It was no more a title of honour than the title
of archdeacon or priest. It signified merely an office of rank
in the church, and not beyond the church. Thinking they
hail no right to pass this bill without knowing distinctly
what its operation would be, and moreover deprecating this
first step iu a course of penal legislation, he should support
the amendment.
The Earl of NIINTO, in few words, adverted to the part
that he had taken in communication with the Pope, stating
that in consequence of the view which his Holiness took of
certain clauses of the Diplomatic Intercourse Bill, it would
not be possible for us to have a minister in Rome. While
in that city he had heard a rumour of the proposed appoint.
meat of au Archbishop of Westminster; but at that time
he had reason to believe that the choice would not fall on
Dr. Winona.
Earl EITZWILLIAM said he objected to the act of the
Pope, not so much as nn insult to the crown or the national
independence, as because he thought it calculated to ail..
sauce the Roman catholic religion in this country. lie
could not look with much approbation on the measure, and
thought it a serious error to have extended it to Ireland.
Ile did not quite we what would be the effect of this bill,
and regretted that more explanation should not have been
affinaled of its nature. He should, however, vote for the

second reading.
Earl HARDWICKE should vote for the hill with the
greatest reluctance, feeling hitimlf driven to it by a desire
to maintain the honour and dignity of the crown.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said their lordships' at-
tention was so much fatigued, that he should not have I
risen but to answer some of the observations which had
been made in the course of this debate. Various as had
been the opinions expressed in this debate, he had not
heard one single sentence which justified this act of the
Pope in the manner in which it had been done ; and even
the noble earl (the Earl of Aberdeen) could find no other
excuse than the habitual arrogance of the Court of Rome.
All he (the Marquis of Lanstlowne)el aimed was that when that
arrogance was of an aggressive character they should be
prepared to resist it. Another observation was, that it had
nut occurred to their lonlships to retrace those steps in
liberality which they had token or to withdraw anyone of
the civil rights which had been conferred upon the Roman
catholics. The noble lord opposite asked what had the
Pope done; and said it was necessary that the Pope should
appoint the Roman catholic hierarchy and that the Queen
had not the power to appoint it. Why it was not because it
was a Roman catholic hierarchy that the Pope attempted
to establish that they resisted it, but it was because it was
a British hierarchy. If the Pope were merely to appoint
Roman catholic bishops over Roman catholic subjects, no
one would object to it. The noble duke said they punished
by this bill not the Pope, but our own innocent subjects.
They punished them fur being the instruments of the Pope.
With regard to the amendments which had been intro-
duced in the bill it was to be recollected that those amend-
ments did not affect its principle, but merely its machinery.
(Cheers.) But his noble friend on the cross bench said
that the government, in sending the bill up to their lord-
ships' house, with those amendments, became answerable
for them. What her Majesty's government was answer-
Idle for was a bill that would meet the necessity of the
ease, and that the bill now would do in its present
form. The measure would not interfere with the
=Misters or ministrations of the Roman catholic religion.
If it was found in practice to have that effect he would be
one of the tint to come to their lordships' house in order to
propose the repeal or alteration of the bill, for he admitted
that the Roman catholic were as fully entitled to full reli-
gious liberty as any other body in the kingdom. (Hear,
hear.) The value he attached to the measure was the
declaration it called forth from the people of this country,
cad the good it would do would be to disabuse the
Tope of the erroneous opinions he was led to entertain of
the feelings of the country. He believed that when the
feelings in which the measure originated came to be under.
stood, when the people of Ireland reflected that they
were admitted to equal rights and equal privileges with the
other inhabitants of this kingdom, the temporary excite-
meat which the measure produced would subside and die
away. (Hear, hear.)
Their lordships then divided—
Contents—Present
Proxies ll9-265
Non.contenta—Present 26

t)

Proxies l2— 38

Majority 227
The bill was real a second time, and their lordships
adjourned at 4 o'clock.