The Express.
London, England, 1851-02-11 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 11, 1851.

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nexion with the National Ethibitirm. With regard to the
expense the Royal Commissioners had agreed to pay for
that portion of the expeele required tor the custody of the
various articles sent to then xhibition ; and, also, for the
expense of the increased poe. force in the neighbourhood
of Hyde-park, and the avenues in the vicinity of the Exhibi-
tion. W ith regard to the expense of any addition of force
which would be necessary for presersing order in the streets
of the metropolis, that would be defrayed just as the
expense of the ordinary police force WIL defrayed. No
intimation had been made to foreign powers with respect to
fors igners wearing military uniforms and side arms,—
(laeghter)—as so apprehensions were entertained on that
account. No additional president had been thought neces-
sary for the custody of persons charged with police offences
dazing the Exhibition.
STAMP ACT.
Kr. M. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask if it was the in-
tention of the government to brini, in • bill to amend the
Stamp Act of last session (13 & 14 Vic., e. 97), or *to much
of it cis counties the trial of all stamp appeals to her Ma-
jesty's Court of Esau:quer at Westminster, instead of al-
lowing those ari•mmgg in Ireland to be tried in that country- ?
The t:H.SNCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER said that
the question to which his hon. friend alluded arose out of
one particular clause of the act, and it in uo way applied
to offencsc generally under it. Before the act of last session
there was no mode of determining what the proper amount
of stamps fur deeds was. If the question was raised in a
court of law the judges alone could determine what should
be the proper amount. 1 hat hid given rise to great incon-
venience, and in order to remedy it power was triSTU by the
act of last session to enable parties to send any deed to
the Commissioners of Stamps iu London, who were em-
powered to 44.4,4 the proper stamp upon that deed, and
their decision was to toe binding on all the parties.
To make the matter certain, an appeal was given to the
Court of Excluquer at Westminster ; and it wit obviously
more convenient that the court of appeal should be one and
indivisible than that there should be three courts of appeal,
introducing diversities tel practice.
TILE PATENT LAWS.
Sir D. L. EVANS wished to ask the :secretary of State
for the Home Department whether the government in-
tended to bring in a bill to uncoil the law with regard to
British invention. in the present session; also, whether it
ISM their intention to introduce a measure for the protec-
tion of patents shown in the Great Exhibition of this year?
Sir G. GREY said the subject of the law of patents had
unite "mine much coosideratieen, and he and other members
of the government had reecive el many representations from
parties interested. 'the matter had been placed in the
howls of his hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General,
by whom he beeped a bill would be introduced at no distant
period. With regard to the pate nts in the Exhibition, he
believed a bill would shortly lit intreduced in the other
house of parliament by his noble frioid the V ite-l'resident
of the Baud of Tenth..
PAPAL AGGRESSION.
On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned
debate,
Lord ASHLEY presented a petition from Halifax against
papa aggression.
Mr. REYNOLDS, in opposing the motion, attacked the
the tempuralitieml the establisheilchureh, whiCh church, and
not the- Pope, hr contended, had Is-en the ugressor in thiscase.
The hon. member fir Norwich (Mr. feet') had observed, in
secondeng the address, that this measure was intsincled to
benefit, not merely the protestant., beat ale, the eatholies,
of the United Kingdom. Asa catholic, he begged to de-
cline the document. lie protested against being bound by
the art. of the Duke of Norfolk, or by the opinions of Lord
Carney*: and if there were one catholic peer whose opinions
in 'althea lie especially dissented from, that peer was Lord
Ilemunont. But, then, he had another authority forces! upon
him, namely, the hon. and learned member fur )(oughts' (Mr.
Anstiey). IVlten that hon. member was delivering his
speech he said triumphantly, and the statement was cheered
to the echo, that there were two descriptions of cathielic-s—
-edtholics of the church of HOMO, sled catholic.* of the
court of Rome; met that he belonged to the former.
Now, without pretending to lee very well read on
matters tel orthodoxy, he thought he understood all
the cardinal points connected with his creed; he
WWI not • convert, but he must confess that until
the hon. and learned member infiirmed him of the fact lie
was not aware that there we-re two descriptions of catholic..
But, on refection, it occurred to him that if there were two
sections of catholic', the hon. and learned member him.. If
belonged tee both. He was a catholic of the court of Rome,
fur the late Pope Gregory XVI. contierred upon hint the
order of St. Gregory, and therefore he was the hon. and
learned Sir Chi- holm Anetey member for Youghal. (Great
laughter.) He would ask the hon. and learned member in
• parenthesis, what services he heed rendered to the Pope in
order to deserve that honour? If the hon. and learned gen-
tleman did nut explain the matter to the house, he (Mr.
Reynolds) would take the earliest opportunity of cluing
W. It was impossible to dismiss this question with-
out referring to the memorable letter of the noble
lord to the Bishop of Durham; and he had a double
right to refer to it—first, because it contained phrases not at
all complimentary tee his creed ; and, accenting, because in
consequence of its publication be had suffered a pecuniary
loss. When he read that letter he thought that it could
not be genuine—that it must lee a hoax. Happening to say
to to a friend who was in the habit of betting, his friend re-
plied " I'll bet you a guinea it is genuine." Ile (Mr. Rey-
add.) said " Done," and he need not tell the house that he
was done. Ile could not approve of an CJ post foe to law
against the vicars-apostolic, founded on precedents drawn
from the reign of Henry the Bth. As regarded thee' Lord
Chamberlain and Bee catholic Archbishop of Dublin, lie
thought lee could state what was material in considering the
I question. When Lleorge the -tile visited Dublin iie 1821,
Lord Liverpool being prime minister, he was MCOntlllinird ,
by the greater minion of his officers of state, amongst
whim was Lord Sielmouth, then Secretary of State leer the
Home Department. What did Lord Sielinouth do ? Ile wrote I
a letter, under the authority of the King, n.veignising the
titles of the catholic bishop. of Inland, who were. received at
court in that capacity. lle addressed them as "My Lords,"
and gave them their prop erpoesition eight years before catholic .
emancipation was curried, and an apology was now other:4
because a similar course was pursued in 1840. Why, within
the last week he lied attended a ler,e ut Dublin, at which
the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin was present, and the
position assigned to that prelate was superior to that of some
of the protestant bishops and that of the Duke of Leinster.
lie had hoped, when coming over to attend parliament, that
he should be called upon to .issist in the repeal of the window
Ms, or the knowledge taxes, or the malt tax, and how
much, then, was he amazed to behold on his arrival the
House of Commons occupied during the first five nights
with this miserable, absurd, and mischievous subject called
papal aggression? (Hoer.) lie would give the bill every
, opposition in his power, and in every stage, Lind he pro-
phesied that if ever it should become law it would be a per-
fevt and complete failure in esecution. The right hon.
member fur Ripon had admitted that Ireland was essen-
tially a catholic country. Ile (Mr. Reynold/1) thanked him
for the admission, and trusted that she would remain so. pier
clergy were not clothed in purple and tine linen, but in sack-
cloth and ashes, and he hoped they would remain so (Laugh-
ter.) In that country seven millions of Itomancatholies support
2;100 priests, while the clergy of u million had a state pro-
vision of 600,0001. a year. WAS this bill to be added as a
ii ew source of discontent ? The noble lord had spoken of Arch-
bishop Cullen as of a man totally unacquainted with the state
uf Ireland. lle could assure the noble lord that Dr. Cullen
was a man bone and reared in Ireland, and extensively con-
nected with the wealthy middle classes in that conntry.
The ATTORNEY-OENEItAL, perceiving that hon.
members were inclined to debate a bill whose formal
provisions were not before them, thought that he .
might du service by giving them some information on
the subject. lie held it to he a sound maxim in
politics, that you ought nut attempt to introduce any
remedy more extensive than the evil complained of, and
that then-fore if in this case you passed a measure which
should effectually prevent persons holding those sees being
called archbishops and bishops of pretended dioesses,the real
object of legislation would be obtained. He believed that the
bill would effectually prevent the evil complained of,fur which
object it had been framed with considerable care ; and it
would be for the house to decide whether that cure had been
successful. It was important to draw a distinction between
the two branches of offence which had been committed by
this bull. One branch, and a very large one, was the insult
which was conceived, and justly conceived, to have been
cast on the sovereign and people of this country. Another
was the injury inflicted on certain classes inhabitants.
The
of its
The insult offered to this country by the introduction of a bull
professing to govern the whole country by the immediate
dependents of the l'ope, had produced, he believed, an un-
due alarm as to the amount of injury likely to arise. The
two things—the insult and the injury—had with difficulty
been kept separate; and the great desire for legtslation
had arisen, not merely from the injury feared, but from the
insult which it was conceived had laeu offered to the
Queen and country by the introduction of the bull. With
respect to the insult which bed been offered to the country,
it would be useless for him to say anything relative to the
expression of public opinion throughout the country or in
that house, further than that they were quite *ancient
to repel any insult from a foreign potentate. With respect
to the injury, it principally affected the Roman catholic
portion of the community, and was of a two-fold character,
the one-half spiritual, and the other temporal. He appre-
hended that that house had nothing to do with the spiritual
effect to be produced by the introduction of the bull. It
was said that the effect of the bull in temporal matters
would be to give to certain persons assuming the titles of
bishops power over religious endowments founded for the
benefit of the Roman catholic religion—a power enabling 1.
them to deal with such trusts in a manner totally different
from the intention of the founders. It was important
to prevent any such assumption of power as should
interfere with the rights of any British subject. (Hear,
hear.) But there was this difficulty in deciding such
questions in courts of law —that the courts, taking
cognisance of a Roman catholic endowment, would treat
the appointments of persons connected with it as mere
facts to be ascertained, and would refer to the authorities of
the Roman catholic church to know in what way these persons
were to be appointed in future. Now the bill professed in the
first instance to extend the.provisions of the Roman Catholic
Relief Bill, the 10 of Geo.IN .which imposed a penalty of 1001. I
everyfor offence, in cases where a Roman catholic prelate
assumed the title of any existing see throughout the king-
dam, such penalties to be only sued for by the Attorney
General. The present hill, by its lint section, extends
that clause to the assumption of any title whatever, refer-
stag to say city, place, or district whatever in the United
:=. But they did not stop there, but had added a
mulling every act done by persons holding
anln st that description—done in the characters of areh-
lianga; bishops, or deans--absolutely null and void, as also
talo done by other persons with reference to them, and
ram those titles. If they could effectually meet
I=l•lloseti—if they could effectually introduce clauses
yesdasiag such results—he apprehended that the intention ot

the house would be fulfilled, that intention being to put an end
to a particular thing of which the people complained. It ap-
peared to him that the clause providing that any act or
deed assuming such title or character should be null and
void would have the effect Of completely paralysing, with
respect to temporal matters, persons accepting such titles,
and that it would not be possible for them to do anything,
i effectual in courts of justice towards obtaining possession of
charitable trusts or endowments. The act being declared
null and void, it could nut be given as evidence, and there-
fore could not be employed for the purpose of enabling the
so-called bishops, archbishops, and deans, to do things
which in any other character would be a perfectly
valid and legal act. In addition, they proposed to
endeavour to prevent other persons giving them any such
pave, and for that purpose they prnposed to enact that it,
should not be legal for any person to give any sum of
money in support of any such pretended diocese or see, or
to any persons fulfilling ecclesiastical functions in respect
of such see, with worn, sufficiently large and precise to
provide for any evasion of suck provision, In addi-
tion to that, they provided that every gift or bequest
of real or personal property, or any preferment to any per-
son occupying any of these illegal titlesi, on account of and
by name of such title of the see or deanery, should be for-
feited to the crown, and that the crown should be at liberty
to dispose of it as it might thiuk tit. But while the effect
of this proviso would be, that it would be impossible for any
person to make any such gift or bequest for any purpose,
charitable or otherwise, in which the parties in whom the
administration of the funds would lie were designated by
the titles of bishop or archbishop of any such illegal see,
undoubtedly it would not prevent, nor was it ever intended
to prevent, the making of any gift or bequest for charitable
purposes, or for purposes personally beneficial to the party
under the title ; but to make such gift or bequest effectual,
the name of the party must be inserted in the deed. Thus
the name of Dr. NViseman, if for Dr. Wiseman, or whoever
the trust was to be invested in, if trust property, must be
named by his name ; for if he were described by the title of
Archbishop of Westminster, or by any other of these *m-
ealiest cathulis dioceses, the gift or bequest would be void,
and the funds be disposed of as the crown might direct.
(Hear, hear.) The house would see the distinction: if the
object wale to confer a beneficial interest on the party, os
to make him trustee for any charitable purpose, it would be
properly given to him by his own name ; but if for the sup-
port of any of these dioceses, it could not be effectually,
given, except by sonic name which imported succession. lf
charitabc purposes, the money might he given in trust
to the vicar-apostolic for the time biing,—that would be ,
sufficient for all such purposes. and such a gilt or bequest
the courts of law in this country would recognise and en-
force. They had also endeavoured to prevent any confusion
which might arise from the money being given by the will
or deed of gift to any person connected with or having
reference to any person connected with any such see, that
the crown shall have the power of disposing of it, it being
considered more desirable then tomake the gift void; be-
cause the house could well conceive it possible that a case
might arise when by accident, and without intention, the
gift might be made to or in trust to the Roman catholic
bishop fur the use of some relative to the party executing
the deed, and so against the law. In such caws it was con-
tddered desirable that the crown should have the power of
doing justice according to the intentions of the testator, and
to prevent any barrier to this object it was provided that no
evidence given by any person in any such ease should be
available for the purpose of enforcing against them any
penalties under this act, and that the circumstance of their
being otherwise liable to penalties should in no ease protect
them from suits of recovery in the courts of Equity. (Hear,
bear.) Such was the general scope and object of the hill ;
and if, as he believed, it would effectually prevent persons
from assuming these titles, it would as e tbetuidly prevent
the existence of any of these dioceses or sees. ((hear.)
They (the dioceses) could not exist except in reference to
sonic territorial limits or place in this country, they had
been told by Dr. Wiseman. That was an essential condi-
tion, without which these bishops were merely bishops is
parlibus. If they were exercising episcopel functions in
any district in this country, the consequence which followed
in the canon law to the bishop of a diocese did not apply,
unless there was some reference to territory or place. The
hon. and learned member for llath was not correct in imp-
ressing that the act might he evaded by stating the bishop
or archbishop US " in Westminster," instead of "of West-
minster." If the words in the coutrxt of the instrument
gave any reference to the title, the act would operate.
It had been said by the honouruble member fur
Bucks (Mr. Disraeli), that the bill would not inter-
fere with synodical action. Hes (the Attorney-General)
differed with the honourable gentleman on that Pont. lie
thought, on the contrary, that interference with synodical
action was the necessary consequence, and that the hon.
member himself would, nn mature consideration, see that it
was so. It was undoubtedly desirable, if they could, to
effect that object in the most quiet way; but if it were done
effectually, that was all they ought to seek to do. (Hear,
hear.) It had also been said that the bill would not deal
with this ease—and it was true to some extent, that it did
not deal with the case of a prelate, or any priest of the
Itomieh church, by means of the terrors of eternal punish-
ment, inducing • person to take any step whatever he might
not otherwise desire to take, or preventing him front per-
forming his civil duties, or enjoying his civil rights. For.
instance, that it would be possible for a Roman catholic
prelate to promulgate some bull, or for several prelates
to meet in a synod like that of Thurles, and direct
1 the clergy within any diocese to threaten with the
pains of eternal punishment, or deny the meta-
ment to any man of their eonimunem, who should
enlist in the army, or serve on njury in any court of justice.
It was possible, certainly, that such an occurrence might
take place ; but, at the same time, ho did nett think it wouid
be proper on that account to introduce into the present bill
any measure to prevent it. (Hear, hear.) In the first
place 110 such question had as yet arisen, nor was likely to
arise. (Hour.) And, if it had arisen, he should still have
no hesitation in saying, that according to the existing law
of the country it would he an offence at common law, and
one which, he had nu doubt, the courts of justice would he
sufficiently strong to deal with. (Cheer.) lie submitted,
therefore, that a bill like the present should not be enema-
' beret with any prurisions intended to meet ease's of that
description. The Roman eatholica of this country
bad always professed, and as he believed with great sin-
cerity, their desire to obey the laws of the country; and
that they were actuated by feelings of loyalty AS strong as
those which reigned in all other claws of her elajesty's
subjects. (Hear, hear.) Was it not tit and proper that
they should be protected and tried by such it measure ?
They would see, if they were disposed to obey, a measure
which made it an offence by statute law to take OICSe titles,
or to administer any promrtv under and by right of titles
of this kind. lie believed it would lie found that none
would offer to resist it. (liter.) He admitted the danger
of venturing anything like a prophecy in such a case,
but he thought it but fair to give the catholic clergy and
the catholic body the opportunity of showing whether they
were not willing and ready to obey the law; but he
felt satisfied if they should not, and if, in conse-
quence, it should become necessary to adopt some
further and more stringent measures, the power
of parliament would be found ample and sufficient
to meet any resistance that might be offered, and that the
, power would nut be withheld. Ile admitted that he did
not anticipate any such resistance, and he rejoiced that he
did not. (Hear.)
Lord ASHLEY, after adverting to the importance of the
subject under discussion, observed that the question was
whether they should allow the ceclesiaatice of the church of
Itome to Felite and occupy within these realms a position
they had never before occupied even in the most palmy
days of Romish influence in this country—a position which
they were not permitted to occupy, and would never be
permitted to occupy in any continental nation that owned
the authority of the Vatican. (Hear. hear.) Ile must say
in the first place, that this was no question affecting merely
the church of England—this was no bill to secure her esta-
blishment, protect her honour, or extend her influence.
(Ilear, hear.) The question was whether they would or
would not give that protection which the circumstances
required to the civil and religious liberty of the country.
(Hear, hear.) It was a question that affected as much the
ealeyan, the independent, and dissenters of all denomina-
tions, as the members of the established church. (Hear,
hear.) Ile believed it could be proved that it was a ques-
tion affecting as much the religious liberty of the Roman
catholic laity themselves, and most undoubtedly the liberty
of the inferior order of Roman catholic clergy. (Cheers,
and a cry of " No.") When the hon. member
for Manchester asserted that no movement had been made
by the dissenters in the north of the metropolis, he was not
correct. (Hear, hear.) The most remarkable document
that had fallen into his hands of late was the declaration
of the ministers of the congregational denominations of the
county of Lancaster, written, he should think, by that
great master of the English language, Dr. Vaughan, of
Moorsides (Hear, hear.) So far as he (Lord Ashley)
could understand the arguments which bad been advanced
lutanist legislative interference they reduced themselves to
two or three. The find was, the weakness of the power they
were called on to resist. But was nut weakness to be con-
sidered a relative term ? Might nut the power which was
deficient in material force be stronger in moral force than
those it opened? (Hear, hear.) Was it not possible
that that power (and did not history show it)--even
while the Pope was so weak as to be driven from his capital,
and even his existence to be threatened—wee able to stir
up remote kingdoms and dethrone monarchs; and was it I
not possible that, though he had not a single gun-boat or i
a soldier of his own, he might, by his influence,
he able to rouse half Christendom into hostilities?
Was he not, after his recent abdication, able while In exile
to bring the armies of France, of Austria, of Naples, and of
Spain to his aid ? The movement now made in this ,
country was, not that there wet any fear of the political or
spiritual power of the Pope; but it was to meet an open and
intelligible insult which must be repressed. (Hear.) If
that insult were confined to a manifesto or proclamation we I
might Nimbly pass it over ; but it was not so, it was au se.
suit reduced to facts, and embodied in the persons of an I
archbishop and twelve bishops, who, by their presence here,
and by the daily parade of their titles, were to keep the
Queen constantly informed that she was not the only foun-
tain of honour in these realms; and by the partitioning of
tsthohauhintrc.reic
wnme:FMoonfriniotthhim.hpoegeseh.tl.drutoto7.o
pre, dominion,. (Hear.)
in(t1...1 cHacer2:htoiTuitlhcdehnlike
pietltoeuwease.,,sLithdde
the country into dioceses that she was not the sole governor
Attorney
-General
t helionevethaanty (Hear,P°mLnant.mig.httn.
thise
ornimpurpotry assume
(e any
(Hear, bear.)
he pleased and
)uuthewouidinake it l
pmtTup.lt
and go to the main objection. The great argument against
the bill was, that it was a restriction of religious liberty—
that it was a limitation of that liberty which had been con-
ceded to the Roman catholic' by the act of 1829. Now, he
was prepared to say for himself, and he was quite sure he
could say the same for vast bodies of persona outside of the
house—of course he did not presume to answer for any
member within the house—(" hear" and laughter)—but

having received numerous communications, and taken part
in various public meetings, he could speak for laree masses
of the people out of doors, that they had no desire, as ho
ised no desire, to trench in the least on the privileges con-
ferred by the Emancipation Act. (Cheers.) The question
was not whether we should take anything from the Roman
catholic', but whether we should allow them to take any-
thing from us. (Cheers.) The advocates of this papal
measure contended that it was altogether in accordance
with the spirit of the act of 1829 ; that it was necessary to
the full development of the Roman Catholic Relief Act.
On this statement two question arose. First, was this step
necessary to the development of the Roman catholic Yell-
. gion, nod secondly, was it consistent with the rights
of the Crown, and the civil and religious liberties
of the people of England? (Cheers.) Now, as to the
first, that it was necessary for the development of the
Roman catholic religion, he would observe that, with
1 reference to the act of 1829, it was perfectly clear that tho
I Boman catholic' had full right and ori•-.lege to develop
ti 1r rel!ginn• to 4itrusin, extend. and promote it by any
legitimate means—(hear,hear)—inel he would go fuither,
and say that, though the church had been governed in this
'realm fur near 300 years by vicars apostolic, if the episcopal
functions were so necessary to the government of their
church, he would, as at present advised, go so far as to say
that they would have full powers to convert those vicars
apostolic into bishops. lie knew well the detriment he
1 should thereby .receive—he knew the detriment he should
receive by the introduction of such a hierarchy, but never-
-1 thelo
s it appeared to him that that would be in strict con-
formity with the spirit of the concession made in the year
1829. But no one had proved, or attempted to prove, and
his belief was that no one would be able to prove, that ter-
ritorial titles were in any degree necessary. to the ellieient
exercise of episcopal function. Territorial titles were a
1 worldly and material affair, while the office of bishop was a
spiritual concert. (Hear, hear.) Would any one venture
to say that Archbishop Wiesen= could not exercise his
' episcopal functions in the district assigned to him unless he
was called Archbishop of Westminster? (Hear, hear.)
If Dr. Wiseman called himself Archbishop of the Roman
catholics in Westminster that would leave him full liberty,
for the exercise of all his archiepiscopal functions, but it
would assign the true distinction and impow on hint a just
limitation. (Hear.) Many would say, " Why be so very
pertieular—shy fight with a shadow—what dues it signify
whether ho be called Catholic Archbishop of West-
minster or Archbishop of the Roman Catholics in
Westminster—is it worth while for the sake of this
monosyllable to throw the whole empire into confusion?"
His answer was " yes." (Hear, hear.) In the first place,
the Archbishop of Westminster claimed a universal juries
diction in that diocese. but the title of Archbishop of the
Roman catholics in Westminster would show clearly a re-1
stricted attire. (Hear, heer.) Dr. Wiseman, in his
famous appeal, when defending himself against the charge of
having wantonly and unnecessarily assumed the territorial
title of Arelibiehop of Westminster, gives that which was the
true reason, and so important was the reason then assigned,
that one was almost tempted to think it a response to the
prayer, "Oh that mine enemy would write a hook."
(" Hear," and a laugh.) In that document Cardinal
Wise-
man said, " We don't take the restricted titles, because the
church of Rome does not and never will acknowledge any
limitation of her jurisdiction." And why not ? For this
reason, "That it is a well known tenet of the church of
Rome, which none could Olney, that every baptised soul,
whether baptised by ecclesiastical or lay hands, whether in
the church of home or out of it, every fatalism' soul is the
subject of the Pope of Rome." (Hear, hear.) To state
that he was only archbishop of the Roman catholics in
Westminster, therefore, would have been a restriction of his
claims to that extent, while to declare that he was arch-
bishop of Westminster reserved to the church the absolute
claim to the extensive sovereignty over all baptised Krone,
whether protestant or catholic. (Hear, hear.) This very
claim, he contended, did form a ground on which as pro-
testanta they were bound to make a firm and detenumed
resistance to the step which had been taken. (Hear, hear.)
For it was the well-known policy of Rome that everything
which was not resisted she converted into a right—
(hear, hear)—omit she then made it a starting point for
!rah aggrandieement, and fresh exercise of her unwarrant-
able ambition. (Hear, hear.) Now, let him look at the
second proposition —was this consistent with the rights of
tho crown, and with the civil and religious liberties oh' the
people of Englund ? Dr. Wiseman should again answer
this question ; and, upon his own showing, it was not eom-
;edible with the rights and liberties of this realm. Ile hail
told us that the intneluction of the hierarchy was not
simply and solely fur diocesan operations. lie had told us
that it was fur the purpose of obtaining synodical action.
(Hear, hear.) Now, he (Lord Ashley) would not pause to
show what must be the effect of synodical action; and,
indeed, this was done in so graphic and hireible a manner
by his noble friend (Lord J. Russell) iu bringing forward
the present measure, when he described the bearing and
consequeneee of the synod of Thurles, that he should
only, weaken its effect on the house and the country,
if he were to ante-rcpt to enlarge upon the point.
He would simply indicate this—that the synod of Thurles
would be repeated iu the city of Westminster, and that we
should base, unless it was now restricted, an ecclesiastical
umpire sitting here unit issuing its decrees in the very heart
of the metropolis of the British dominions. (Hear, hear.)
But this was not all. The institution of the hierarchy was
required fur synodical action, but synoilital action was re-
quired for the introduction of the cantos law. These were
the words of Dr. Wiseman himself, that " it was for the
introduction of the canon law that he sought for the intro-
duction of the hierarchy." Now, had the house considered
the character and nature of that canon law ? Ihul they
fully considered what they had heard from the lip. of
members at' floc Ratans catholic I.,lly—tow this thing taut
on theist burdens not easy to be home ? Did they not
hear it front the lips of an hon. gentleman of that house
(Mr. Austey) ? Had they not heard from the Duke of Nor-
folk that ultramontaae opinions were inconsistent with the
liberties of the people of this realm ? (Iliac.) Had they
not heard the name from Lord Beaumont in the following
words :—" The Pope, by his ill-advised measures, has
placed the Roman catholic. in this country in a position
where they must either break with Rome, or violate their
allegiance to the constitution of these realms :" 'flies was
the position iu which many of the Romeo catholies were
placed. This was the position in which the whole country
would he placed by the introduction of the canon law,
respecting whose despotic and intrinsic character the noble
lord quoted Tarim,s authorities, and conteuded that eubjee-
non to the canon law was wholly incompatible with ob.:-
theme to the civil law, or the enjoyment of civil liberty.
These were citations from the canon law The laws of
kings have not pre-eminence over ecclesiastical laws, but
are eubordivate to them." (Hear, hear.) Let the house
murk the next provision of the canon law, for nothing
could be more precise than this :—" The statute law of lay-
men does not extend to churches, or to crelesiasticul macrons,
or to their merle to their prejudice." (Hear, hear.)
He then commented upon the encouragement that
must have been given for the act of aggreseient
by the division iu the Anglican church, and the ap-
proaches of a large section of its clergy and laity to the
doctrines and practices of Rome ; and predicted that if those
tendencies were unchecked, a collision wax inevitable
between the ecclesiastics end the laity of this country.
'the noble lord concluded by urging the necessity of mom-
taining the church in its purity, and not in corruption, and
with a view to obtaiuing that end, he was satisfied he was
speaking the sentiments of the vast majority of the church
of England, that they would encounter every risk to bring
back the church that they loved still nearer every day to
the standard of the glorious Reformation.
Mr. 11. GItATTAN expressed his regret that the provi-
sions of the bill were extended to Ireland, and that the in-
Idieidual who gave titles to:the bishops—which was very
often done out of mere courtesy—was to suffer for that
simple act. Did the house intend to have an army of
spies throughout the country, in order to find out
who gave the titles? He begged to remind honour-
able gentlemen that there never was a law prohibiting the
introduction of bulls into the sister country, and therefore
the present bill, if applicable to England, ought certainly
not to be extended across the Channel. He contended that
aggro ions were not now for the first time practised in
England, because they had commenced when the four, and
subsequently when the eight, vicars apostolic were ap-
pointed by the Pope. He denied that any insult was
offered to the Queen, for it was impossible that a mere
change of names could be meant as an insult to her Ma-
jesty. (Hear, hear.) lie agreed with the noble lord who
had just sat down that the Puseyites had done much to occa-
sion the aggression, but the speeches of the noble lord
at the head of the government, delivered in that house in
1845 and 1816, when he said that he saw no objection to the
Roman catholic bishops taking the titles of protestant sees,
had also done a great deal in superinducing it. If their le-
gislation on the subject were proceeded with, be be-
lieved the house would be laughed at, and that it would
become the contempt of all mankind, A learned and an
able man,—Sir Edward Sugden—a man of the highest re-
putation as a lawyer, and whose administration of justice
while he was on the Irish bench would ever bo remem-
bered with pleasure and admiration—had expressed a very
strung opposition in reference to the so-called papal
aggression. Well he (Mr. Grattan) held in his hand a
legal document, which was issued with the authority of Sir
Edward Sugilen, while Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and
which was signed by the officer of his court ; and this
document referring to Dr. Croly, a Roman catholic pre-
late, among other persons, styled hint " Bishop of Armagh
and Lord Primate of all Ireland." Would the Attorney-
General bring in a bill to render invalid all documents sanc-
tioned by the Irish judges, wherein their titles were ac-
corded to Roman catholic prelates ? Such a hill would cer-
tainly be on a par with that which the noble lord was now
seeking to bring in. In the case of Oliver Plun-
kett, an Irish Yeoman catholic prelate, tried in Eng-
land for high treason, the judge who tried him; Chief
Justice Pemberton, made use of exceedingly offensive lan-
guage regarding the Roman catholic religion, and Lord'
'I
Campbell, in his celebrated work, mentioning the circum-
stance, gives in full the titles of Plunkett. 'Well, would
they bring in a bill to prevent Lord Campbell and his
' publisher getting out a third edition ? (A laugh.) Again,
in 1825, in the committee which then sat on the catholic
claims, it was a common question to put to the catholic
bishops who were examined—it was put by the let* Sir
Robert Peel among others—" arc you bishop" of such and
such a place, mentioning their sees. Ile could not, there-
fore, conceive on what ground this measure was to
he extended to Ireland. Let not hon. gentlemen ;pride
themselves too much on their proetestantism. Ile (Mr. Grat-
tan) was a protestant, though he had twice been mistaken
in that house for a Roman catholic—(a laugh)—but he did
not on that account believe, as regarded the Roman catholic
faith, that an immense number of human beings could
have been created, and born Roman catholic', on purpose to
be damned. lie did not come to this question either as a
protestant or as a catholic, but simply as an Irishman; and
as an Irishman he would resist the threatened injury to
Ireland. It had been argued that, after all, it would
only be a verbal injury. But a principle was sometimes la-

volted in phrases ; and it was so in this case. In 1689 the
!Me of the kingdom depended upon the debates of parlia-
ment, and those debates were about two words—" forfeited"
and "abdicated." When a trifle was a symbol it became
valuable. If the Duke of Devonshire had the "garter;
taken from him he was not merely robbed of a bauble, he'
was degraded. Why should the parliament interfere to
take from a Roman catholic bishop the title which the people
regarded with reverence? Ile called upon the Irish
members to look to themselves in this matter,
1 and he would remind the noble lord (Lord John
Russell) that there was something behind the Teem-
sury . bench stronger than the Treasury bench—viz.,
a majority. Let the house consider the circumstances with
I which they had to deal in Ireland. For centuries pmtes-
I tants and catholics had been divided: they were now
`uniting and forgetting all their ancient dissensions and
animosities. Were they now going to separate the people ?
Are they willing to see the ancient dissensions re-created ?
The hon. gentleman concluded by etpreasing his deep re-
gr.t at the discord and animosity which had been called
forth; and his deep disapproval of the measure, at the
weakness and imbecility of which mankind would be asto-
nished. . . _

After an explanation from Mr. 11. DLttIIWONTI,
Mr. CONOLLY addressed the house, but was indistinctly
heard. We understood him to say that all countries, Spain,
Austria, Belgium, France, Holland, Prussia, bad one and
all concurred in rendering the same response to the same great
question—that the power of Rome must be restricted within
certain hounds, uud had all proclaimed with one voice that
that power, it' unrestricted, would he incompatible with the
free government null the independence of the people ; and
this country, with those which had the greatest amount of
freedom, were those in which the power of Rome had been
most limited.
Mr. I'. WOOD appealed to his hon. and learned friend
the Attorney-General whether great incmivenience had not
arisen front having gone so great a length into the discus-
' neon of this important subject on a motion for leave to bring
in a bill. He would rather have teen the bill in the house
first. Ile trusted he should he able to show that there
had been no feeling of bigotry upon this question.
dHear, hear," and "Oh, oh.") There bud been a great
eal of earnestness displayed, mid if any bigotry had been
shown by some the answer was, that they were not
to be confined in their judgment of the feeling that
prevailed by the speeches of individuals, or by
examples and specimens of individual bigotry: But be
woo prepared to say—looking to the tone and spirit of the
general views adopted ut the large public meetings that had
heeu held—looking to the resolutions that were passed at
those meetings—that that spirit and those resolutions re-
dounded to the honour, good sense, and sound judgment of
our countrymen. (Hear, hear.) At almost all those assem-
blies they nojected the notion of returning to any penal
laws. (Hear, hear.) Ile believed one and all of them
repudiated the idea; and no man that he had heard
of had been bold enough to propound such a re-
solution at any of these meetings. To his mind
it appeared more satisfactory that these meetings
should for the most part have taken place in a re-
gular and constitutional manner. Resistance was
not bigotry any more than indifference was mora-
lity. Bigotry consisted in narrowness of mind which
could not always perceive that the same truth might
presto, itself to different ntinela in various aspects.
Again, it consisted in narrowness of heart in the want of being
able to sympathise with the errors of others—if they wen
errors—and in imputing motives to them for taking diffe-
rent principles of action to their own. Ile believed that
bigotry prevailed in every division of religion and politics,
yet still he believed that strong earnestness might eziat in
perfect consistency with the most enlarged and liberal feel-
ings towards those who differed in o; . To this prin-
ciple he should adhere that all should be careful in the
mode of expressing their opinions, and he hoped lie
should say no word to wound the religious feeling of
any one who heard him. (Hear, hear.) However
that was the ground upon which the members of the bar
rested, and upon which they originated the document they
signed before they had heard of the, wade lord's letter at roll.
They were told that this was nothing but a chatige
of name, and that sentiment was echoed by the hon.
member fur Sheffield, and it had been asked what was
the difference between vicars apostolic and bishops ; and
what the difference lietween the Bishop of Melipotamus
and the Archbishop of Westminster in exercisiug the same
' functions. The difference was dais vicar apostolic, he
had no jurisdiction whatever; he had spiritual influence
and spiritual power of ordination, and every power that was
exercised in foto ronarientity, but no power to be exercised
in fort, &demo. 'ibis was perfectly well known to
Roman otholies. Spiritual matters, moreover, were
distinct from ceelesiasticial matters, send thus spiritual
might be opposed to temporal, and also to ecclesiastical.
But the bishop exercised jurisdiction, not over only 200 or
300 individual., like • vicar-general in a district, but he
claimed and exercised a direct ecclesiastical jurisdiction over
every individual residing in his diocese. (Hear, hear.) The
distinctions Was tarfectly well known to Cardinal Wisentall
and those oho acted with him. After further explaining
this difference in detail the hon. and learned member pro-
ceeded to argue that the Pope had, in the institution ofeardi-
nal Wiseman in fact transferred the arehiepiscopal see to the
archbishopric of Westminster, and coniaNuently since the
promulgation of the hull there neither existed a see of Can-
terbury, or of York, or of London. C' ilea:, hear," and
laughter.) And in all this there was nothing insulting.
Ile maintained that the attempt on the part of the
Pope to erect these dioceses was illegal at common
law. (Hear' hear.) Every legal gentleman would tell
them that the asoomnption or claim of any title, dignity, or
jurisdiction by a per-see :aging under the authority of o
foreign power was a fault at ....minion law. The offence of
Carlinal Wiseman was that he had acted under the Pope's
assumed authority, and hail infringed the IGth of Richard
11. cad the lath of Elizabeth, and, therefore, to talk as
some hon. gentlemen had done in regard to e.r post facto
law Wit., to talk of what had Ile/ limas ohateser.
He did not think that the object they had in view that
night was to consider how they hail to deal with persons
assuming mere titles ; but they were there to consider a much
graver and wider question,—(hear)—how far they would al-
low persons to set up in this country a power which had dis-
turbed all Europe, and for anything they saw might become
the means of general confusion and disturbance. (Hear.)
He maintained that with regard to all matters ecclesias-
tical the Queen was the sole source of jurisslietion in these
dominions. Cardinal Wiseman and his legal friend
said he had done nothing contrary to the law, and
they had relied on the good sense of the govern-
ment that no prosecution would be instituted. They
had not calculated, however, that there were other
persons who might he willing to bring the cardinal and
his vizier fairly to the test. ("!tear" and laughter.)
They had asked the cardinal to put himself in a osition
te enable them to try the legality of his conduct. Tphey had
called on him tee admit the facts, and they would proceed in
the matter. The cardinal, however, had thought twice
lof it. (Hear, hear.) The assumptions which the present
bill was intended to prevent were such as the people should
I not submit to with impunity. (Loud cries of " hear, hear.")
It was something else than the mere titles which Cardinal
Wiseman and his suffragans desiderated. (Hear, hear.)
Without a hierarchy they had no episodical action—they
could not meet in synods • without it they could nut intro-
duce the. " canon law," and this was what they wished to
do. (Loud tried of "Hear, hear.") He agreed en-
tirely with the noble lord the member for Bath in
deprecating the scandalous conduct of those who, hold-
ing preferment, in the church of England, had thought
it consistent with their duty, when their hearts had gone
over to Rome, when they looked and lusted after her in
their hearts, to officiate in our church, to take the emolu-
ments, and to use the influence of their position in order to
pervert the hearts and feelings of the people. In one ease
an unhappy roan officiated in his church and carried away
with him the two children of his organist. lie knew him-
self another instance in which a young lad, 17 or 18 years of
age, at college, and his father being abroad, was led away
by one of these new bishops, who now affected to hold a
new see in this country, and by the assistance, he
was ashamed to say of a clergyman of the church of
England. He knew a party who had had under
that bishop's own hand a letter to that lad of 18,
telling him to keep it a secret from his family. These
things had excited the indignation of the people, and he
went with the noble lord (Lord Ashley) so far. The noble
lord told them that there were parties in the church who
were prepared to go all lengths in order to, what he called,
purify the church, Now, he (Mr. P. Wend) was prepared
to go all lengths to prevent such abominations as those to
which he had referred ' . hut, on the other hand, they should
bo careful what they did. They knew that in all bodies
there were parties who took different views, and a per-
son who was very warm in his advocacy of one
party wax apt to think that a person who at all
differed from him had gone to the other extreme. lie
believed there were many in our church who were in that
position, who knew its claims both WI a catholic church and
as a protestant church, protestant against the corruptions of
the church of Rome. He trusted, therefore, that there
would be throughout England the same earnest zeal that
had been already shown, taking a proper direction, declaring
that we would not allow our sovereign s rights to be invaded,
that we would not allow any foreign potentate or priest to
exercise control over us ; that we would not allow his
bishops to act under his assumed authority. Be trusted
that we should exert ourselves not by violent agitation,
hut by a calm discharge of all our own duties, by an
earnest zeal which he hoped to see show itself in some
other shape than mere resolutions at public meetings—by
the erection of new churches where needed, and by the
spread of education. Ile (Mr. Wood) had not seen the hill,
but if the bill were framed with a simple solemn
recital, declaring the rights of the Queen, with regard
to these realms, and the illegality of assuming her functions
without her consent, he thought they should have done
what was expected of them by the country, and what was
sufficient for the present emergency. He thought that what
they had to do in parliament was this—to embody in the
' great corporate voice of the nation the voice of all those
assemblies which had resounded from oar end of the king-
dom to the other to require that some stoop should be put to
this insolent aggression—insolent he believed it to be, and
aggressive it certainly was. And now they answered the
people of England by putting on record their determination ;
by preventing the Pope from saying that there was the
least consent on the part of the people of England ; they
should establish their consistency as protestants against in-
terference with their church or with the government of their
country, and at the same time free themselves from the
charge of bigotry, and show an example to the world
of religious tolerance. The whole thread and tenor of our
constitutional history was this—that no power on earth had
jurisdiction, temporal or ecclesiastical, in these realms con-
trary to the Queen. (Cheers.)
Mr. M'CULLAGH said while he listened with delight to
the speech of his hon. and learned friend who had just sat
down, ho was unable to detect in the greater part
of that speech any logical attempt to reason in favour of
the first reading of' this bill. The Attorney-General

I had talked of this uffair of Cardinal Wiseman's as an
offence. if it was an offence, it mist !faro been au offenca

explicitly either against the crown or against wime subjecta
of the crown. If tt WAR an offence against the crown, it was
not fur the ministers of the crown to allow individuals to go
in a sluthhy way for a shabby admission, but it was the duty
of the ministers of the rown to institute proceedings, no

matter what tho issue might be. Ile thought they lii;crighi,
however, in abstaining from a pr2secut ion. fle thought that a

prosecution would hai,e been a. disgraco tothe age, and he rc-
Htoiced that no such step was taken. Hut then it seas too
[ bad to come there, when the passions of the notion had
• • - -*

been roused—it was too bail to come there and use tho

term "offence" again and again wino affecting to make a
simple statement of the nature of a bill. it was a very
unusual course to object when the first minister of the
crown asked leave to bring in a bill. The convenience and
the courtesy of the house concurred on almost every occa-
sion in granting bins that privilege. But this was no
ordinary occasion, and he would venture to say, when the
division was called men who had never before voted against
the minister of the crown bringing in a bill would be found
to vote against him doing it now. The question must mainly
turn upon this—were they justified a., a parliament not
exclusively protestant, not exclusively of any denomina-
tion ? «ere they justified on public policy, and the high
responsibility they owed for the welfare of the nation ?
Were they justified in opening the gate again to secta-
rian legislation. Ile listened to the speech of the
noble lord at the head of the government in mov-
ing this motion with an aneinus attention which he
was sure every one of them did, hut he must say
the rouclueion be came to was this—nut that great ability
haul not been displayed, not that arguments hiel wit teem
resorted to, but the conclusion he came to 'A :Li that the
noble lord hail made out no case for the intereosition of
parliament in the internal discipline of the church of !tome ;
fte nee to ignore by act of parliament the hierarchy of the
catholic churele admitting as they did that the ilieveiline
of that church consisteil of its subordination to the bishops
was to ignore and to overthrow the discipline of that church.
The noble lord (Lord J. Russell) had brought a lent; I.iii of
indictment against the Roman catholic him welly of Irelaad.
He (Mr. 3PCullugh) mid it without hesitation(thwigh cer-
tainly not without diffidence.) that he had never list. nee to
a statement with more pain than to that of the first
mi-
nister of the crown. The first item in the accu-
sation brought by hint was against the catholic primate
whom he charged with having been appointed in an unu-
sual way, and that being a man unacquainted with the ler-
eunestancess of the country to which he was sent, he had
been appointed for improper purposes. Now, the feet was,
that the parish priests having elected a person to, till the
vacant arelthishopric of Ann telt, the bishop, of the pro-
vince., (which was a very unusual thing) had not recurred
iu that election. Under these circumstances fer the Pope
to have confirmed either appointment would have been to
have given a triumph to the one party or the othear. The
l'ope hail, therefore, adopted the wiser and more charitable
course of choosing a third pers,m; and in selecting lir.
Cullen, he had chowes one who from his poeition at Rome
was fully acquainted with the state of In hind, am' elm
' was able, moreover, materially to serve the catholic church
of that country. It hail been rn:nplained against the new
primate that he haul suit put himself in commune. itimt with
the government of Ireland; and no wonder, for it appeared
that one of the first things which had taken place after
his election, was that the government hail consulted
whether or not a pro.. cution should not lie commenced
against Dr. Cullen. Ile held in his hand a doeument
which was a complete justification of the deter. They
would remember that when the Queen was advisea to mitt
her ancient realm of Ireland, and to spend there a few
brief but, to them, hapay days, the Royal Moselle of Aug.
7, contained an account of the order in which her alajo sty's
subject, were preeented to her. The third person was
the protestant Art111)1411. of Dublin, and the fourth
the 1t0111231 Catllolie primate. Now, let them tell
him, would they prosecute Dr. Cullen for 1.18.101-
ing a right which had been allowed to hold loceire
the Queen. (Hear.) The next person invited to the royal
presence, and who Ise supposed was also to be prosecuted,
was that venerable man whose support had been rendered
to the government of this country, with a heroism of which
there could nut he two opinions, he meant Dr. Murray, the
Roman catholic Archbishop of Dublin. The noble lord had
complained of the synodical functions of the catholic
church, and had charged the Synod of l'hurles pith in-
terfering between landlord and tenant, and w ith the question
of the Queen's colleges. With respect to the latter, hu
(Mr. M'Cullogh) would say nothing except this. namely,
that if' any assembly of bishop., were not warrinted in giv-
ing their opinion on the question of education, he could not
for the life of hint imagine what subjeMe they were justified
in discussing. (Hear.) With respect to the other topic,
he would tell them this signal fact, that in the whole of the
26 closely-printed pages in the svitotlieal address to the
people of Ireland, the whole that More any refl.:sync°
at all to the relations of landlord and tenant were six-
teen lines, which had no reference to any political
question, but which regretted the lamentable state of misery
in which the western parts of Ireland had been reduced. by
the wholesale system of eviction which hail been pursued.
(Hear, hear.) He asked the noble lord in the preenee of
this house, and of the country, to remember the words of the
only one in that house who had ever been regarded as his
equal, and who hail been removed from them, to say whe-
ther thy went a whit less fur than those of these bishops,
whose strongest expression was, that the track of the ruth-
less destroyer might be traced in the hovels of the peasantry
which they had reduced to ashes. Sir It. Peel, speaking of
western Ireland, in 1848, said that the state of the
country was more terrible than if it had been invaded by le
foreign enemy. (Hear, hear.) Be proteettel, then, nguinst
blaming these bishops where they were unrepresented and
unpopular for saying no more than Sir Robert Peel had
said. (Hear, hear.) The exposititm of the bill given by the
Attorney-General had greatly increased his (Mr. M'Cul-
high's) apprehensions. Ile bad stated that every act of a
catholic diocesan, done as such, would be null and void.
lie asked them to consider what this meant, in a catholic
country like Ireland? The iippiointment of every parish
privet in Ireland would, by these nullifying clauses, be ren-
dered void. (Hear.) Was this to be tolerated in the year
Deal ? Was this the equality of which they lio era so Much
and enjoyed *o little? The hon. gentleman concliiil“l by
claiming for all equal rights and equal means of enforcing
their discipline; and by warning the house that every es
trograde step that they took they would have to., retrace, and
well would it be if their penitence did nut come too late.
(Cheers.)
Sir 0. OItES thought that the most ample grounds
had been laid for the future cousioleratioon of the
measure ; and that certain propositioss had been esta-
blished and demonstrated fur its basis by the most con-
clusive arguments and the most convineing evidence.
(Ilea:, bear.) Some of these propositions were the follow-
ing : It had been demonstrated that the act which they now
proposed to have recourse to was an act ou the defensive—
that the step which they called on the house to take was in
accordance with a demand made from one end of Great
Britain to the other—(hear, bear)—and that it had been
provoked by those who new complained of the course which
they most reluctantly felt themselves compelled to adopt.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman the member for Dublin,
who began the debate that night, und the honourable
and learned member who spoke last, complained of the
bigotry of the English people. The hon. member for
Dublin drew a gratifying and pleasing picture of the har-
mony which prevailed amongst the different sects of this
country, but it MILS not they who were responsible for rho
bitterness and discord that had been evoked. (Hear, hear)
It was caused by an illegal act. (Cheers.) The hon. and
learned member for Oxford (Mr. Page Wood) had demon-
strated by his able speech that the act was contrary to the
universal law of nations ; and not only that, Ind that it
was controiry to the statute law of the realm. (Hear, hear)
The hon. and learned member for Dunaulk controverted
that view of the question, but he hail met the hon. and
learned member for Oxford not by argument hut by bare
assertion. (Cheers.) He said that Lord Lyndhurst intro-
duces:l a measure into the house for the repeal of the statute
of Elizabeth, but he omitted to notice the fact that an
amendment was afterwards introduced, when Lord Lynd-
hurst had charge of the hill, though he was not in office
at the time, in which it was declared that nothing
contained in the bill should render the act now done
lawful. (Hear, hear.) But then, they were tusked, why
they did not instruct the law officers of the crown to prose-
cute, if an illegal act had been committed ? (Hear, hear.)
He begged to tell those gentlemen who cheered that there
might be many acts done in violation of the statute law
which the government did not feel themselves bound to
notice by prosecution. Another point, which had been
established beyond the power of argument to contradict,
was, that the act complained of was not a spiritual act of a
spiritual authority designed for the benefit of the commu-
nion to which it more particularly referred, but
wee an act of ecclesiastical authonty—(hear, hear)
—committed by a power which exercised a mixed
ecclesiastical and spiritual authority, the act of a party
claiming undivided sway and absolute dominion over the
realm of England. (Hear, hear.) The best argument in
proof of that was the language of the document itself, which
had been so much referred to; for that document disre-
garded the existence of the Queen of the realm of England,
it ignored not only the right hut the very existence of any
ether church or denomination other than that preside
over by the Pope of Rome and threw who were called on to
exercise authority under him. (Cheers.) The language of
the brief, and the pastoral which accompanied it, showed
that the act was not a spiritual act confined to the mere-
ben of that body of which the Pope was the bead,
but an assertion of absolute and undivided domi-
nion in matters ecclesiastical as well as spiritual, an act
at variance with the supremacy of the Queen, and with
rights and privileges which were dear to all the inhabitants
of the kingdom. (Hear, hear.) Those points had been
satisfactorily established in the course of the debate, and it
only remained for the house to determine whether the pro-
visions of the bill were adequate to the occasion. (Hear,
hear.) During the course of the debate censures had been
cast on his noble friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, for
the conduct he adopted in Ireland, which conduct, it was
said, gave encouragement to this act of aggression, for
as so it justlyw called. (Hear, hear.) A similar charge
had also been made against other members of the government.
These charges he was prepared to meet, and the conduct of
his noble friend he was ready to explain and defend.
These charges might be resolved into three heads. First,
it was said that his noble friend encouraged the Roman
catholic religion and hierarchy by giving titles, titles which
were not prohibited by law but titles of respect to the Ro-
man catholic prelates of Ireland. The second charge was
that made by the hon. and learned member for Sheffield,
who said the government were in the habit of addressing Ro-
man catholic prelates by titles which were prohibited by law.
The third charge was that one member of tbeerevernment, a
member of the house, had a previous knowl of the in-
tention of the court of Rome to promulgate this document,
and that he either gave an express or tacit acquiescence to
the course pursued by the Pope of Rome. To that, how-
ever, bit noble friend now gave a distinct denial. (Hear,

bear) Ile hogged the bowie to bear in mind the distinction
between the two Int charges, namely, the giving of
ewes of courtesy and respect, such m " grace "
to an archbishop and " turd " to a bishop, and
the giving of titles which were prohibited by law.
With meant to the first he was not going mutter any exeuve
or awlogy lie tiling such titles of honour and respect to the
heads of the Roman catholic religion in a country the hulk
of whose population were Roman catholic*, ace lung as they
conformed to the laws under the protection of which they
lived. (Hear. hear.) The hon. member fur Buckle taunted
hi. noble trio rd for the letter which he wrote to the /bebop
of Durham. but the hon. member Mr Buck+ should
remember that he was himself guilty of the indie-
action of writing and publishing a letter ou this
subject. (Plert, hear.) Ile (Sir 0. Grey) would nut
call that letter "a blunder on • sudden ;" hut a greater col-
lection of blunders in or small a compass he never saw—
(hear)--it was a complete muition in pewee of blunders.
The hon. gentleman the member for Buck+ charged him
(Sir G. limy), though not by name, with giving precedence
to the prelates of the Roman catholic church over the
nobility and dignitaries of the national church. Now the
fact wa-, they did not take any precedence over the digni-
taries of the pneertatit church. (Hear, hear.) They m ctrl
took the same place on bring presented to the Queen whit
thor took on the ocemiun of the visit of George the Fourth.
belitecil the person who was re-spur/able, if
my, no what appeared in the Gazette, Was the
Lord Chamberlain, who, being a member, he la tiered, of
the free kirk of Scotland, was not likely to be engaged in
a coneriney fio the undue exaltation of the Roman catho-
lic religion. (" Gear, hear," and laughter.) lie (Sir 0.
Grey) was ignorant of the names appearicer, as they did, in
the Gtur;te, sod so was the Lord Chanel). rlain. Ile be
lieved the thing was done by au officer of the Lord Cham-
berlain'e. who was sent raver to arrange matters with re-
gard to the reeeptinn. lie we, put in conarnuoica-
tion with Mr. Willie, the Gentleman l:eher of the Lord
Lieetenant, and he hail addre-sed the following statement
to the Lord Lieutenant with reference to this mutter :
The right hem, baronet then read the letter. The writer
stated that, in order to elesceibe more fully Dr. Crolly and
Dr. Murray the y were designated ley him (as was under-
lined) Boman Catholic triniate of Ireland and Itoman
Cathoiic Arelebieleop of Dublin. Its transcribing the list,
lee added, foe the fig :elk, from extreme precoure of business
—(ironical cheers)—there having been in three days nearly
Are thou-and persona signifying their intention to conic to
court, and re...paring immediate attention, he, most inad-
vertently and contrary to endow, copied the flan," of the
Zonal' catholic prelates as designated in the lid. ((hers
and laughter.) Lord Clarendon (motioned the right hon.
baronet; knew northing whatever of that entry in their:area,. ;
Ise (Sir I. Grey) certainly knew nothing about it, though
be had the honour of attending her Majesty. Let the he•use
ton, onelentand that the entree am not given oil that nem-
lien, it had been given year, before. 'lle Roman catholic
bishop exercisieg jUri.dietiats within the dionwe of Dublin,
and the Rosman catholic Archbishop of Am:4th, had lee n
bairitualiy received. Their designation wee, he :Omitted, a
most ineurreet and improper role, and if any responsibility
noted upon him in consequence of his having been in at-
tendance mem her Majesc., at the time, he was willing to
bear any censure which the horse might pme upon bins on
that amount. (Item, hear.) But was the, miserable fact -
(loud rh rs) - the only "lend of es blew, on which it was
attempted to lime the amertion that it had been the habitual
practice of the Irish government to violate thou law, end to
a,,ignAt. the Roman catholic joelates by tithe to which they
ha' no right? (Item.) The hon. gentleman went further;
be improted tipmt this story. The hon. gi 'dictum' who last
adder+d the Pause stated, and now by his cheese repeated
the *tat. mint, that tisane prelates were receive. el by her
hlejesty under them titles. Ile did not know whether or
not the 1001. gentleman were there, and spoke (nen his re-
antheti...l ~f what took place. Ile (Sir 0. (in.)) however,
had the howour and the privilege of being near her Majesty.
Ile w itie -nest the inge:rtial grams and condescension w ith
which else ne. i wed all claw% of her sulcjecte,without regard
to (Wien-nets of treed. ((:heere.) Ile saw, elm, the uni-
tive...el loyalty which pervaded them, and beheld with eatir
faction the irrelates of the lininan catholic church addrem-
ing her tlajedy, not by titles prohibited by law, hut by
till. • moeue el in strict conformity will, law, designating
them., We, the umicreigned bishops of the
Romeo' satholie :church of Inland." (lime.) The hon.
rasoihs r f 4 Barks, not satisfied with two errors in his
emerge se to rosekmn the government, rated that " the
guvernimut oitTenll the oilier of abater to the Queen's Col-
kires ter Dr. tidbit, the Pope's eleharatee and pseudo Arch-
bieho;e M Armagh, and to th. the pseudo Arch-
bishop of Imam." The same staterneut won made in the
most distine t berms, as if in juetilicatien of the act of the
Vulg., in a leemehlet of Mr. Bowyer. If the bon. gentleman
aseuet that the office of visitor Wall of to those two pre-
lan., la was quite right. And Item again, lie (Sir (i. Orel)
would .l- I lull' that he conoti-actuleit to no cardr or apology.
lac ofr• ring the to two Lord
Clarendon may act.sl in the ',filet of the govenimesit which
brought fore :gel the meneure for establishing thine colleges,
and to the spirit of the act by which the legislature sanc-
tioned the. scheme. (('lover.) But if he meant to say that
the refer er the appointment was Emile to them under the.
title of •• Archbishop of Armagh" and "Archbishop of
Timm," 11l what was decidedly contrary to the fart.
what th• dielit.strefen nee to deitment- would show
to lo• here ware not a jesragraph in the hon. gentle-
man's 1. ti, r shah did not cunt .in None blunder. lle said,
"The t,, ,-, Ow the whole question has been surrendered,
and el. tided in favour of the Pope, by the present govern-
ment and the minister., who recugnieed the tomtit° Anti-
bishop of 'I mem we a per 111111 a pr. late, cannot ohieect to the
appoint co "f a pseudo Areleleeducp of Westminster, even
though he 1.. a egnlingl. On the (unitary, the loftier dignity
should. umording to their table of pnatedenee, rather billet
hi. t- see with a still higher patent of nobility, and
permit Itha to hist- tlw wall of hi Grate of Canterbury and
the. leigh t nobles of the land." Now really this recogni-
tion es
a LOA. )ai.a le he could handy base cone.: i• sl would
issue thee g, utlenian *i well illhleinelt as the bon. mem-
ber 6.r the I. It was an ado:Mani of the vulgar notion
which
tool you made hint a peer. (Laughter.) Lent Clarendon
ara, a., tee dof insetting the eleseen'e pr..netative in that
cris,i I bet h. re avant the hon. gentleman was wrong, for
it vt.ia net mile matter of Cwt. but of history. that these
lid.. arr. ,ell. en d lone la fore Lewd Clarendon had any-
thieve to .10 with the goseruntent of Ireland. (Ile ar, hear.)
lied-e, lie r heel bee n mule it, the Bequest Act. It was not
true that that act gas.. ou.h titles to the Roman catholic
bideops, neither was it true that they were meth rod by an
order iuc
of the eommj...i..l4l'TS under the Bequest. Act that long before
Lord Clare:dm, hail mything to do with the government of
Inland, on the. 'Jth of Januarv.lS4S, Archbishop t'rolly was
theignat, el •• llis Grace Arehlsiehop William ('roily." He
thought the government was right in conferring such titles,
while they n-pected the institution., of the country,
trent hid upon no pri‘ilege. of the established church,
tranegrees. cl no law. But, he remated, if there was Maine
let it ma fall entirely on the present Lord Lieutenant of
Inland. (Gear. hear.) Lord Clarenelem acted in the same
Joel spirit of roue:diadem towards his Roman catholic fellow
subject. a. his pnsteetesors haul done; but he toted- -per-
haps both :tend —with too little onepieion, in too confiding ,
a spirit. toward., he would not soy the gr..at holy of their
Ronian catholic fellow-subject' ; he acquitted them of any
isspeemr feeling, but there were some, it now seemed,
who haa built On this a fabrication of acquiescence on the
part of the government in measures which certainly uo
member of the government had the plighted reamn to
suepect w ould ever emanate' (nen the court of ROW.
(Ite m. I. ar.) With regard to the tide " Cardinal," which
the hon, gentleman (Mr. Dierreeli) thought would justify
Wisaitate's taking precedence of the Archbishop of t'ati-
tether!. let him he reminded that it was not necessarily an
emlesiastival title, but might be conferred on a
layman. Reference hail been made by the hon.
member for Surrey (Mr. 11. Drummond) to a eon.
tielential communication between pool Clarendon and
the Pope. On that subject he had a letter of Lord
Clarencion's, hut he really did not consider it neeesmry to
read it. (Cries of " read.") With regard to one part of
the charge. to which this letter referred—namely, that the
ceneununication wets adeinwerd to " the Archbishop of
Dublin," he had thought that that was completely aban-
doned. The words " Ili, Grace the Archbishop of Dublin"
were • complete fabric:diem ; they were not inserted by
Lord Clarendon, but he believed they were first introduced
at Rome. The following was Lord Clarendon's letter on the
subject:

a Viceregal lodge, Jan. W.
" . . . In the autumn of BSC the Ward us Presidents eltftg
la Addis were occupied in framing the astute' fur the colleens I
we. in ronitint eounnismeattas with them, and I oleo caught the ad-
vice of chtfnent persona, whose It owledge end esprit...nee might aid
In enabling the canned compote, and thereby Welling the Wen-
Wiwi uf the go‘erninent whin had founded the colleges. cot. the le-
gialature which had saw toned them. 1 woe also met *salmis to
remove the charge of ' goiter' Newt,' which had hero brought spinet
the college. is England, and eagerly adopted by the ens mire of these
laatitutiovis in Ireland; and 1 moreover thought it a outman obligs.
Ben that the moral training and reLgiona instruction of the nudents
frequenting the colleges should he guarded with the moat Vrupalaus
gam I ago rilMely consulted several eienr!"." of "mat d"
eamisatios', and anicsag ethers. Dr. Bardnuallion. the Nadlalar-
Arctitnehop of Carl* who had mat Wind la Ireland. and having
Waned v me time at Boor on his way, was cognisant of 4.1 the un-
rounded rum ware current there. regard* the collet". which bad
leu to the onodemastics of them by the Pope and as he was shortly
about to return to Borne I woo glad at the oppoetunity to show him
Imo the Werra* of religion and morality won Irtutfalttrad for all
ilescenanantons alike (by th. aggebenost ataimese of reeklenre and
We entshinihrnent of taareline honltle. 60. sad "'"" "4"1/
the utter tetwhood of the repot tbeilles wages had been errablhhed
tor the purpose of undermining the SlNlMagelliebe religion. . . .
When the statutes were completed sad wed toDr. Michel-
e= woo stout to return to Costa * the way of Rome, and I
willingly ware him an /street hen this, which related
le wool discipline and religions teeeradese. he the belief that
It wee the bait mode of eneenuelailai the troth to the
rOff, mad 4 restating the unjsi WiwitelleeMataldsme made to
Wm. et.d I here no Melted= is Set Two M'ho's to elect
Ink leis., the eendemnatker of tha rail r...• ..., 1111117
to deprive m.tor of Me Illeimmagibelle leer Debra of the Waft-
tor' ' geed to them by Will lestelseane. I Whist. thwefote. *at he
alatioul home and 'weldor Ina possatlona Wee. le wise that he
might tn. tonne awere of tbeeiggesigna genii Ile eseileseettee hell
Won founded. If I nai Wen opal et =147. =aegmedllia
lea matter et AMsetlo esillepoinint. I Mar
ant as lir tri=deed ions selboseillee Nelda le Ihereee
Mine ;bee ow ; liel is lbw% MS, dry gen eeee.
=laze woke Se seas meehreet. thee wee One le Dr.
wee Ihrertie time le she hods el rereeet opkitosl
eathartees et the prolestant. Sanaa ealleal% and yeestriterlan
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sea. I es I, at his mord. In vette him a whole
Is. widen &nil germ If namolop. es • guano's* SW
the e melee he leek with Min we. /cams' AM that when the
let of vistiala we bawd Some eriellemeleirdes el the use
ask ...sour shoved be ellegeL . limo been lima Me go
%el
Im la Ideal gad telikase4T Mho *stags. ad
=Niet Ile Pep. bee I mist I Ves• INK eel
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I eilleilftlaq MIN *Pe. 311115111118