The Express.
London, England, 1851-02-08 00:00:00

but I will state generally, that there is no Roman catholic I bull" or such writings. Accordingly we might have proceeded
power, so far as we have been able to ascertain—before I say to prosecute, though with the probebility which I have stated
this, I will say that the Emperor of Austria in the last year, as to the result, under the statute to which I have referred. •
lelo, has made a new constitution in respect to the clergy, ! But, then, a further question arises. If those statutes have •
and that he has permitted intercourse by hulls between his ! to a certain degree fallen into disuse, would it or would it
reclesiasticel subjects and them without the knowledge of', not hr advisable to make a new enactment on the subject
the government—l am afraid this is an imprudent of the introduction of writings Irma Rome. Now, this is an
concession on the part of the temporal power— ! important part of that great subject to which the hon.
(hear, hear)—but I was Finillif on to my, with regard to' member for Becks alluded. I must own it appears to me
the Roman catholic powers of Europe, that there was no one ! that you could alter the law hat in two wayo. You might
of them, an far as I an aware, that would admit any bull to I re-tortet the law, making a general prohibition, ouch aa
be brought into the country without the previous sanction there is in the statute of Edward 111., and such as diets in
of some cis il authority of the state. Such is the ewe, as we the laws of some of the countries of Europe, emoting that
have been told very lately, with regard to Portugal. The no bulls should he introduced pnjudicial to the K ing or to
minister of her Majesty at Lisbon inquired of the minister the welfare of his people. That ss one course. But that
of her Faithful Mmeoty, and was informed at once that she course would, I think, leave the law exceedingly vague.—
weeld never permit any bull to be published and circulated (hear, hear)—and it would always he doubtful whether or
at Lisbon to which she had not given her previous sanction. not any particular writing fell within that &scrip-
But now, sir, with regard to the Protestant powers ; we Ron. Sir, there is miuther velem which might have
hive inquired of the Protestant governmental whether they . been taken, and it is one welch has not only been
wend have admitted a hull or writing of the Pope creating adopted, but has been very generally sulopted, by the tonn-
a new sec within their territories. We are told by Prussia, tries of the continent of Europe. It is that of saying that
the ftlmitest of these powers, that although with respect to every hull and every writing of Rome shall be submitted to
her 'tom= catholic territories she has not concordats, but some civil authority, and shall not have currency, or be
agreements with the Pope, by which the appointment of allowed any force, without either some meitive sanction or
bishops is regulated ; yet, when it was proposal at Rome . the absence of any objection to its publieation. Now Ido
that a Bishop of Magdeburg and some other bishops should I not say that there is such a paramount objection as should
be created in the protestant territories of Prussia. Prussia , prevent the legislature trout adopting a measure of that
immediately referred to the articles of the treaty of West- ' kind, but at the same time I teatime conceal from myself'
' plualin, and refused totally and entirely her consent to the that very great evils would !dhoti it. (liver. hear.) With
Introduction of such functionaries. Sir, there was an respect to a certain clam of hulls—it cannot be denied that
agreement Pons' 20 yeses ago, I think, between the King of the regular die ipline of the leonsui catholic church, the in-
the Netherlands and "tome, with respect to bishoprics in tenet! concernsof that church, very often cannot be regulated
some cities in Holland ; hut the agreement, or conconlat, without the introductionte writings of that kind faom Rome.
which was made intbia respect excited an much indignation But then there are writings of taw+ a deeeription ns to be
in liollaitd that it has never been carried into effect, and I considered by some permassa to be d: nee to the state,
remain.: a dead letter to the present day. (Hear, hear.) ! which some permit. may Ink upon aoconstituting en undue
Well, sir, what is at least one inference which may be I interference with the temeoral Melee of the kingdom, but
drawn from the narrative that I have given? I which others, although they de nut approve of them en-
think this inference may be drawn, that there is tirely, yet consider to be entirely within the scope of reli-
MI country in Europe. however great or however small, Mous communications bete cen the head of the catholic
no country which values its own independence, upon which church and the persons of that communion. (Hear, hear.)
the Pope would have attempted to pass this insult which he I cannot hut think, that if euy diieretiam were Waged in the
hue offend to the kingdom of England. (" Hear, hear," Secretary of State, or in it hoard appointed for the purpose,
and chem.) In some instances the matter is regulated by he or they would he brought bite frequent discussions us to
treaty between the two powers, sand everything that takes the propriety of allowing leper, to be punished which bad
place is done according to the provisions of the treaty. In emanated from the head of the Roman catholic church. In
other instances it has been proposed to introduce into many Marine, ait would be thought that the Secretary of
protestant countria x hiohopries, and when permission has State had dealt unfairly by the It 1111 l an catholic hmly, while
been refused the Court of Rome has at once desisted front in other instances it would be mid that he had allowed
its intention. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I now come, then, to the to be published writings which were prejudicial to the
character of the document which has been introduced into state, and thus, Uko other metiers in this free country and
this country from Rome. That document purports to issue free parliament, the question would he made the
without the smallest reference to the fact of the United "abject of party delete and of party hostility. (Hear,
Kingdom being an independent state, from the plenitude bear.) I own I cannot but think that there would
of the Pope's power. It is not made a question, from begin- be very great evil in introducing such an additional
ning to end, whether there can he any authority or stock of laritating topes into our parliamentary
power existing in this country, the consent of which debates. (Hear, hear.) therefore, after ninth delibera-
ought to be °Aid, or whose lawful power thande be ree tion on this subject, after very anxious discussion., with a
"`Meted in the document which is thus issued. (Hear.) view to come to the bat possible decision that could be
Not a wore of that kind from beginning to end. The formed on the subject, we have thought it best, neither
/
archbishop is named—named from this metropolitan cit to propose to repeal the statutes I have mentioned, nor to
(hear, hem)—where the Queen holds her court—(hear propose such alteration er substitutt sea those to which I
where she meets her parliament. Other bishopric*, of er have alluded. I come now to the inimetliate question of
sees, are pretendeil to lie created in various parts of tee the amumption of titles, mid I think it is useful, while on
country which arc now under the established behove of the this subject, to refer to that which was given as the reason for
church of England. In the document which he owed in the prohibitory clatters in the Roman Catholic Relief Aut.
pursuance of the letters of the Pope, Dr. Wiseman declares Sir Robert Peel, in inteuducing that great measure, spoke
at once, " We govern, and shall continue to govern, the to the following effect, roopreeing the teatime affecting
teemed of Middlesex, ESSCS. and Hertfordshire, together ecclesiastical titles, " A pnu•tice lots of late ocemtienally
with five other creme's, and," lest anything should he prevailed in Ireland which is calculated to give great, and
omitted, •• the adjacent islands." (Hear.) Now, sir, I cannot I may odd, just offence to protestanta. 1 allude to the pew-
ee.: in these words anything but an assumption of tire, on the part of the Roman catholic prelates, I.i' W.UIIII-
- sovereigety. (Cheers.) It is not a dime ing the names and title, of the bishops of the church of
tion that a certain per-on should govern the persons Etteland. I prepare that the telt', which belong to the
belonging to that communion, situated within a certain bishops of the church of England shall nut be assumed by
district, and that he should afford them the benefit of his the bishopsuf the ltomtm eatholie church. Bishops, 'call them,
spiritual function.. These English counties are territories, for bishops they are, having bee their right of ordination
subject to the Queen's dominion, and the only . excuse, aeknowledeed as valid by our eau churele but I maintain
when any excuse is of eerie is that there are certain forms that it is neither eamay nor deem -one to use the style and tither
belonging to all documents (laughter)—and that it which properly belong to the prelates of the established
is according to the forma of the church of Rome that this church, and ouch essumetitno shall be altogether prevented .
conniption of dominion over elidillerd, Essex, and Hert- in future." (A laugh.' Acconlinely that provisiuu was
fordslaire, is made by this agent who is sent here by a inserted in the Catholic Relief Act. and I find that in the
fon ien prince. (Cleave) Why, sir, that may be • Ido following yet there was puleithed a pastoral address., from
not deny their knowledge of their own forms, but there is the ltoman catholic erchbioloms and be in Ireland to
another form with which I have been acquainted, which is the laity of that communion, and this asides speaks in
" Victoria by the. Grace of Ond—(loud cheers)—Queen of very warm terms of the kindness which the legielature had
Great liritain and Ireland "—(rncwed cheer")—and it shown in pusaing the Emancipation Act. I think it is
anapests, to me that the one form is totally inconsistent worth while elm at the present time, when the language
with the other. (" Hear, hear," lind reiterated cheers.) which hits loen used by Anhltishop Cullen is not quite so
Take which of them you like. (Hear, hear.) Say that reopectful to the crown sod hgelature of tee country, to
the Pope is to be the severeign of this country, and that any real a little to mind what waa the universal :sentiment of
person whom he steels is to govern the Englioh counties, twenty-Isis Remain catholic arilibishoes mad lesatops in 1830.
and that loyalty will be shown by paying obedience to that After congratulatiug themselves that the storm had at length
person. That is a course of which I can well conceive ; subeided, anal that peace and justice were shout tooled thew
but I cannot conceive that any person who is bound by blessings on the county, they said that the K ing,whien they
. loyalty to Queen Victoria can admit that any authority but were hound in loyalty to honour, was entitled further to
her own eon got ern thee counties. (Cheers, partly-, as all the honour and gratitude they can bestow; that the light-
; appeared, ironical.) I kunw not what the hon, gen- future by its etiolate had raised teem (the people of Ireland)
denten mean, but if they mean to say that this is an outho- from a prostrate conditem, giving them equal rights and
city merely aemined, mill that it cannot be enforced,' reply privilege, with their fellow-aulembe and that it also wee
that 1 know that pertietly well, but I owe uo gratitude or entitled to their gratitude and love. 'I hey exposed a con-
thanks to those who do not attern'it to enforce authority'ldea hope that the feelings of the people would lie in
over Middlesex, because I know that it is utterly impowilife unison with their own, and that regret and adlai mace to
for them to enforce it. (Laughter.) It is mete enough the ematitutiou and laws of the eountry, and attaeliment to
, for me that them is the assumption; and if any per- the pereun and government of their most gracious were-
. son had come during the time when the Pretender reign, would be manifested by the entire people. I think
; resided ut Rome and said, " I have been lately named Lord that so far as these es ntiinenta are emicereed it would be
Lieutenant of Middlesex by the Stuart Icing, and I govern well if Bishops Cullen mid Mellitle would refer to the ten-
. —(laughter)—the county or Mid shoe% by his authority ;" timents tiro expressed by their pretleceettra, to WI! what
, I know perfeetly well that the King of, England's lord lieu- loyalty to the crown and what attachment to the legislature
s tenant would have kept his authority unscathed, and that was felt in 1830, and to comities:, whether such eunduct was
. the usurper would have failed in his object ; but still I not well worthy of imitation. (Hear, hear.) But them
. ghoul(' have nail that that wax au unwarrantable ""sump- bishops did not peas without noticing the prolate-
. non, justly subjecting the person making it to any penalty tory clause. They mention it in this way —" We
which he might thereby have incurred. Now, sir, I must rejoice in the result. nuardless of those provisionsrefer for a lOW minute; to what has been dome in former which injuriously affect ourselves, and not only
times—and in Roman catholic times—in this very country, us but thew; religious orders which the catholic church lam
with respect to the power of Rome. I find that in thew nourished in her beaten since the time of the ;trestles.
. thud our catholic ancestors were at jealous as we could be Thees clauses were, we believe, narrates not required by
in these days of the enernaching power of the Pope. reason or sound policy, but by prejudices holding captive
; (Hear, hear.) I find that the king in the days of C'fi II the 111.111dS ot honest men, and they alit net prevent us
i Wahines the Conqueror, though he made concessions to the rejoicing at the good which hens brell afteeted foe the men-
. Roman eve, would not allow any censure or extommunica- try." (Hear, hear.) They did not, therefuto, while refer-
, lion to pros red without his authority. 1 find that when tees tog to those proviohnut ask for their repeal, or do anything
; were created, they were created by the authority of the more teen express a missing regret that such clauses should
. King, mid not by the authority of the Pope. I fine that in have been introduced. It teems to me then, that if such
. the time of Edward I. a person who had procured an ex- were the provisions of tee 'teller Act, and if those: provisions
. communication against another person was proceeded were posed without objection from the !Wean catholic
; onetime in the King's courts ; that the judges declared that body, but on the cinerary were et:sleet-41 wit!, submission
his procuring that excommunication without the consent of and obedience by the Itontan catholic bishops in Ireland,
the King was no less titan high treason, and that it was that we should be perfectly justified in prem.:sing prove-
' only on the supplication of his councillors that the King re- oions of a similar nature with regard to the resent atreurnp-
c trained from having that very sentence executed. Now the tion of titles in this country. For I consider that whether
s persons who were concerned an carrying on that trial and in the assumption had been that of the title of Archbishop of
r condemning that person were no protestant*, d:-trustful of Canterbury, with jurisdiction as ordinary over Bud arch-
the Roman catholic faith or indisposed to Russian catholic diocese, er as in the preeent CUM', Westminster with a new
r tenets; they were all strict believers in the Ronan catholic diocese caused out, the differ nee is immaterial to the quest-
; faith, lint they would not allow any usurped power to come tion, either being equally an assumption of oupreinacy and
, into England. (Hear, hoar.) So likewise in the time of sovereignty which ought not to he permitted by law.
, Edward 111., a petition was presented to the King to (Clears.) But there are other questions which it elmely
; present letters, belle, processes, reservations, instruments, and immediately connected with the aseumption of them
, or any writing whatever, to the prejudice of the Kiug or his titles. It is believed, and I think not without foundation,
people. Be it observed this is not, as Mr. Bowyer Sari that one reason teethe elsangec from viearo apostolic, under
entirely confined to endowments directly connected with whom the Roman catholic* have enjoyed the free t. xereite
; the state ; this refers to all them relations between man and of their religion, and been satisfied with for '2OO year., into
man which the spiritual power of Rome was in the habit of the new dioceses is not only to make an assumption, calcu-
interfering with and controlling, and it was for this lewd in mane degree to lower the state in England, but
purpose, tht !Terre, that our catholic anteater+ thought it also for the purpose of exercising by such no anti a gnat
necessary to take measures against the power of home. coutrul over the large endowments which are in the hands
The statutes on that subject are statutes which arc well of certain Roman catholic trusts in the, country. (Ilea:,
known, and have been frequently quoted before, especially hear.) Now I do not thick it would be fitting that we
the statute of provisors and that of pramiunire—the statute should allow that control to be exercised by any
of the 16th of Richard 11. I shall not refer at length to of the bottlers of those titles which we are about to prohibit ;
those statutes ; I merely refer to the subject to show that in and therefore I shall, if the house give me leave to bring in
those times there was a very constant, vigilant, and, I be- a bill, introduce in it chutes providing that all gifts to per-
lieve,very who, jealousy with r.apect to the power of Rome. sons under these titles shall be null and void ; that any act
(Hear, hear.) I will now proceed to state the course which done by the holders of such titles shell also he null and
the government took, on being made aware of the publica- sold ; and that, further, that property bequeethed or given
lion of those letters, and the measure which I propose to to such persons and for their purpose., shall puss at once to
introduce. The first proceeding which the government the crown, either to caste trusts in harmony with the in-
took, on coosidering these letters, was to ask the law officers tendon of the donor, or tap be otherwise deposed of, SA may
of the crown whether they came under any known, law, seem best to the crown. I do not think that powers less
and what, in their opinion, would be the effect of a prole- extensive than these would satisfy the justice uf the ease.
cation against those who had introduced these letters (Hear, hear.) For I am aware that, in severel caws there
apostolic. Sir, the opinion that was given to the has been a transfer of property from those who have hitherto
government by the km officers was to the effect— held it to others named either directly from Rome, or per-
lewill not quote the words—thatetith regard to the assume- son. assuming certain titles :IS bishop's of the lemma church.
lion of the particular titles assumed with reference to the I was told only the other day that a priest living near the
present state of the law and the existing statutes, they did sea coast was deprived of an income which he had
not think that, either by the common or by the statute law, long held, being informed that by ecclesiastical authority,
the assumption of those titles was illegal, or could be pro- it has been found by that authority, that the income
tweeted with effect. But with reeptet to a further question, could be more usefully employed for other purposes. (A
they said that the introduction of ktters apostolic was in laugh.) Now, I think we should do everything in our
their opinion an offence; that it was an offence which could power to protect the catholic laity against such aggression
be prosecuted, and that in their opinion the judge would —(hear, hear)—and the chose which I propose will, in •
declare that the introduction of thew- letters apostolic was great measure, do so. If it %hall be necessary to introduce
unlawful, and subject to penalty ; hut they added, going other provisions for this purpose, the matter will be at-
undoubtedly beyond the mere law of the case, that the tended to by the Attorney-Geueral in the bill he proposes
statutes which prevented the introduction of any bull or to introduce with regard to charitable trusts, in which any
writing flom Rome bad not been for a very long period of further security that may be necessary can lie taken to
time put in force, and that if the government proposed to guard the catholic laity from what threatens to be a transfer
prosecute for the assuming of these titles, on the of their property to hands into winch it Va., never intended
ground that it was the introduction of a bull or to have passed. There is a more difficult question which
writing from Rome, the topic of long dismic, amounting perhaps the hon. and learned member for Youghal may
almost to tacit conecut,would probably cause such a presecu- raise, with regard to the means which have heen employed
tion to fail. Sir, I think this house will be of opinion that to obtain a transfer of this property—l mean the spiritual
it was not desirable for the government to instruct its law censures directed against the priests of we 'lonian
officers to institute a prosecution, by which the authority of catholic church. That is a question far mere deft-
the government might have been greatly weakened, and cult to deal with, and can hardly be ruched un-
no useful effeet have been produced. (Hear, hear.) But less I adopt the spirit of some of the ancient
I will say further, sir, that un this, the first occasion on laws to which I has-e referred. In the present hill
which we thought we had reason to complain of the intro- Ido not propose to introduce any provision of the kind,
assumption of any title taken not only from any dioccee now
duction of bulls, I should with very great reluctance have what I propose being, in the first place, to prevent the
existing, but from any territory or place within the United
withouthin drnoatif,,,w.liadenapitparhtd.tr
with
thso
lOrdngereddonae prtithcouuttiolnetor
the tacit consent of the goeernment. But there is Kingdom. (Hear, hear) This provision ia. in conformity
a further difficulty, and I with to state to the house with "proposal made by the Bishop of London, in answer
the whole difficulty upon that subject, with regard to the sal- to one of the addresses presented to him. He said that ho
tutee prohibiting bulls or instruments from being introduced. thought we ought not only to prohibit the
;assumption of
No doubt, according to the statute of Richard 11., in eer- titles derived from existing Kea but also their atteum Won
Min cases the introduction of a bull, and the assumption of with referee 1 ,I 1
et to any p ace within the United Kingdom.
power by virtue of a bull, would be a very grave My proposal ere,. with this suggestion, and perhaps I
offence, and would subject the offender to the may mention in addition, that when I informed the Arch-
len of all his property. That was decided in bishop of Canterbury, that it was • de
not listen by govern-
tlM case of Lawler in the time of lames the First, mein ts, institute
te a proweution, he said, " I do not expect
lawler having procured writings from Rome by which he government to institute a prosseution, hut what I do ex pct
was made a vicar apostolic, with jurisdiction in the diocese is that some legislation should take place the PLsubject."
on
et
Dahlia, and harem exercised turisdiction in various I 'thine
.
owes by virtue of the powers which e had received. There be •
an insult to the crown, an interference with the rights
Y likewise a statutory prohibition—to,l believe, the lawyers and '
pmil eges of the established church in this country,
era agreed—in the 13th of Elizabeth as it now stands with and an attack upon the independence of the Queen our
respect to the introduction of writings from Rome. In the sovereign. (Hear, hear.) In the other clauses to which I
year 1846, that part of the statute which affixed the punish- have alluded, I think we shall obtain security that persons
meat of treason to any offence of that nature was repealed, will not obtain p
session under these titles of any trust
but it was declared in taking away the penalties, that the property which otherwise might have been made over to
repeal merely extended to the penalties, and that there was them. I have now stated the effect of the bill I propose to
nothing in that repeal to render it lawful to introduce such introduce. It is, as the boast will see, entirely different