The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-24 00:00:00

DRAINAGE IN SCOTLAND.

In answer to a question from Mr. Foituns,
Mr.l'. M. GIBSON was understood to say that a bill with
reference to drainage in Scotland Will nearly !lady.
EDUCATION

Sir W. MOLES WORTH postponi d his motion on the
subject of the exclusion of Roman Catholics front partici-
pating in the grant for education until the bringing up of
the report.
LUNACY BILL.

Mr. ROEBUCK uncierst;Jelth;e7rTere some amendments
to be propo-ed in the Lunacy 8.11, and he therefore pre-
sumed that it would not come on that night.
Si, G. GREY said the amendments were only of • formal
character.
GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION.

Lnrd J. RUSSELL having moved the order of the day
for going into committee of supply,
On the question that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Sir W. CLAY moved, that it is expedient that in any plan
for promoting the education of the people by pecuniary
assistance from the state, provision should be made that,
in !schools receiving such assistance, the opportunity of parti.
eipating in all instruction other than religious should be
afforded to children whew parents may object to the religious
doctrines taught in such schools. He would, of course, bow
to the decision et. ch the holm had come to by so great a
majority; but atilt thought the measura would prove a
fertile source cf anxiety and trouble. He should make
no general opposition to the plan, and his motion
related only to the details of the measure. Ilia
object was to secure to all the subjects of the realm a
participation in the benefit of the grant to which
all would have to contribute. (Hear.) He believed that no
moderate despotism in Europe would have permitted such a,.
act of injustice to be inflicted on any clam of its subjects 116
the nonconformists would have to complain of if the mea-

sure passed. In almost every parish in the kingdom there
would be a church of England school, but there must neat&
eerily be very few dissenting schools, because nonconformists
would be unable to comply with the required conditions—he
said nothing about their objection on religious grounds to
receive any portion of the grant, because he believed the
house had no sympathy with such conscientious scruples.
The motion having been seconded,
Mr. CHRISTIE said he approved of the intension
of the proposition of the honourable member fir the
Tower Hamlets, so far as it wen founded on a principle
of religious toleration ; but he believed that so far from di-
minishing, it would increase, the inequality in the working
of the scheme. In the cases where the dissenters formed a
small minority, without schools of their own, he conceived
the declaration of the noble teed that the committee of
the privy council would consider them, to be sufficient. In
those cases, where there was a considerable number of dis-
senters who had dissenting schools, he was afraid that this
measure might tend to injury ; but he thought it would be
increased by the operasion of the proposition of the
honourable member. The dimenten might not be able,
in many cases, to find the sum required, in order to
have the regularly trained schoolmaster; whereas the mem-
bers of the church would have no difficulty in doing so ; and
the consequence would be that the children of dissenters
would go where the better schoolmaster was. The dis-
senting schools would therefore fall away, end the benefits
which arose from the competition between the church and
dissenting body would be lost. There was this fault in the
plan propounded, that instead of being content with general
rules they hampered themselves with inviolable ones. A
great deal had been said about the exclusion of the Roman
catholic'. Ile was as anxious as any one that the Roman
catholics oh iuld participate in the benefits of the grant, but
he believed that the principle of the government was to do
the greatest amount of good they could. (Hear, hear,
hear.) He did not think, then, it should be
said that the Roman catholics were excluded, but
that their time had not yet come. (Hear, hear). There
was another class of whom little had been said—the mein.
berg of the Jewish persuasion. He understood that the Jews
maintained three school, in this city for their power brethren
which stood in need of assistance, and he hoped that their
claims would be considered together with those of the Roman
catholics.
Mr VILLIERS said that the hon. and learned member
hod pointed out the inconsistency of the dissenters in object-
ing to the present scheme, but that was no way to get out of
the difficulties pointed out by the member fur the Tower-
hamlets, who said that, owing to the deficiency of education
provided far the dissenters, it was necessary to make provi-
sion for the instruction of their children in the national
school,. If the dissenters did not accept of the grant, the
consequence would be that more children in the agricultural
parishes would be left without education. The motion be-
fore the house resulted from the inconvenience of attempting
education by means of religious societies. (Hear.) The
difficulty they had to contend with was, how
they were to give education to the poor without
having the impediments resulting from peculiar
religious tenets thrown in its way. He thought that the
principles of Dr. Vaughan had been misunderstood. Dr.
Vaughan did not recommend an irreligious education. He
recommended, as he (Mr. Villiers) understood, a system of
education from which all might derive advantage, and by
which religious instruction would be given to all children
whose parents did not object to it. He did not see why such
a system might not be adopted in this country. He thought
that they were only in the infancy of the system of educa-
tion, and ho was glad to understand that the go-
vernment did not propose this as a final scheme.
(Hear, bear, hear.) He could not vote against the
amendment of the hon. member for Finsbury last night,
because he thought that a proposition of this hind should be
made in a committee of the whole house, and not upon going
into committee on the miscellaneous estimates. He thanked
the government, however, for what they had done, and he
concurred with the right hon. baronet the member for Tam-
worth that they should cease squabbling about peculiar
tenets, and adopt the broad principle of giving Christian
leaching to the children of the state in the Christian religion.
Mr. FORBES said that the measure of the government
had his support, because he thought it a just one, and he
gave the noble lord credit for bringing it forward in a manly,
straightforward manner. (Hear.) lint any proposition for
the endowment of the Roman catholic. would have his feeble
but strenuous opposition.
Mr. ISIUNTZ said he opposed the measure because he
objected that any body of the people should be taxed for
general purposes without obtaining a fair share in the dis-
pensation of the money raised. (Hear, hear.) On the same
grour,d he opposed the grant to Maynooth College. It was
said that a secular education must be a godless one, but he
thought that education might be given to the children of the
poor, and their religion lett to the care of their
parents and minister.. (Hear, hear.) He could say,
from his own experience, that the workmen who was edu-
cated we. better than the uninstructed one. (Hear, hear.)
Kr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that though prepared
to support her Majesty's government on that question, he
would not be doing justice to the division which he repre-
sented (the northern division of Northamptonshire) if he
did not state that in all the coffimunications which he had

received from the opponents of the measure, the oppositioon.
had been made to rest, not on the grounds urged in that
house, but on those set forth in Crosby Hall. Many of the
petitioners against the measure were men to whom the charge
of fanatical bigotry, or of political violence, could not properly
be applied; and when they opposed the measure they were
newer the truth, and more consistent with their own principles
than many who had opposed the measure on the principles
advanced there. lie believed it was a fa sounder and more
wholetionse principle that education should be let alone by
the state, then that the state should attempt to separate
secular from religious education. (Hear, hear.) Thoth
who complained that the dissenters had taken them by sur-
prise, appeared to him to have taken a superficial view of the
principles of the nonconformism, who, both politically and
theologicaUy (as was understood), conceived that they had
a right to perpetual progress and constant development.
Considering the experience which had been gained since
1839, the honourable member for Wolverhampton was the
last person who should complain of being taken by sequin
in this matter. How could he expect that those whom he
had addressed so frequently in favour of the lainerfaire
principle in commerce should not desire to have the same
principle applied to education 1 It was unfair to meet the
dissenters with statistics of crime, and to endeavour to cast
obloquy upon them fa opposing the government scheme.
The drienters said to them, We regret this state of
things as much as you, but we tell you that your plan, in-
stead of ameliorating it, will only make matter. wer.;
while our sympathies are with you as to the end to be
gained, our understandings are not convinced that you
have proposed the right means to gain it ; we tell you that
you stop short in the principles which you advocated last

year—that you were right then, and we are right now."
Political economists had evidently felt the pressure sf that
argument ; and in treating the question merely as one of
police, and endeavouring to strike a balance between the
gaoler and the schoolmaster, they had argued the measure on
her lower ground,' than had been taken in Crosby Hall.
Now, he wished that those who were for separating reli-
gious from secular education would tell them what
education was. Was it merely instruction—was it
merely knowledge—or was it the educating of the
better parts of our nature ? It might be all very
well for the honourable baronet the member fur
Southwark, who said that since the days of Socrates and
Plato, no advance hod been made in ethical science—it
might be very well for him to urge the advantages of mere
book learning, but a barge majority in that house believed,
he trusted, that there had been an immeasurable advance
in ethical 'cleat° since the period mentioned ; and, for his
own part, he thought that if they appealed merely to rea-
son, sod trusted to secular education alone, as the means of
securing their own property, their course, founded upon such
poor and sordid motives, would bring down upon them the '
punishment which they deserved. (Hear.)
Dr. BOWHING would feel greatly distressed if
as impression should be produced that he felt less
,interested than others in the spread of education ;
fur he certainly felt thct it was a shame and an oppro-
brium to this country that there should be such multitudes
unprovided with popular education. lie felt bound to
acknowledge that the voluntary system hod not accomplished
what it had proposed to itself. When he heard it rod that
government education must include religion, he could not
but feel that the controversy was a controversy about words.
To elevate the mind, to purify the morals, and to teach the
duties of children towards God and man, was an important
part of secular instruction ; but when he came to inquire
more particularly what was meant by religious educt-
lion, he found that it was instruction in creeds,
formularies, particular translations of the holy books,
and what might be called the external forms of
religion, which did not constitute religion itself.
He had visited countries where education was universal, and
if he had asked the masters what were the religious opinions
of their scholars, theywould have regarded his question with
surprise and indignation. Controversies about " versions "
were, indeed, as it seemed to him, eminently childish. He
grieved, indeed, to think that so many religious animosities
and antipathies should interfere with this great field of bene-
volence. Were children only to be instructed when men
agreed about points of doctrine? Why, he did not know
what was true, but he could know what was charitable.
(Hear, hear.) He. knew that there was in the world much
truth and much falsehood ; but the falsehood, he had ever
found, was on the aide of persecution, and the truth on the I
aide of kindness and of charity. (Cheering.)
If,. TRELAWNY Raid there were many objections to
this measure in which he participated very strongly. At the
same time, however, he regarded it as the best thegovernment
was able to propme. Oa that ground he should support it—
strenuously and unflinchingly—let what might be the con-
sequences.
Mr. BROTHERTON said this was not a question, in his
opinion, between church and dissent. Was it calculated to
be beneficial to the people ?—that was the question—the
only question—.hick weighed with him. (Hear, hear.) lie
belleved thin measure would be of great benefit to the people,
and therefore, although he had voted last night in the mino-
rity, is order to make the measure just, he should to-sight
give his vote in favour of the government, in order
that the measure might peas that house. The volun-
tary system did not meet the wants of the people.
Crime was increasing everywhere. Its punishment cost this
country two millions and a half a year. blillione a year
were spent in intoxicating liquors hundreds of thousands
in prosecuting felons ; and yet the state did nothing for the
prevention of crime (Hear, hear.) Let the people, there-
fore, be educated. Let them not dispute about the " Denny
version," or "the recognised version," but let them adopt
the best system, without hampering it with their prejudices.
(Cheers.) He was much phased that the government had
brought this sul6ect before them is the shape of an annual
grant. If it had been a perfect measure, then they should
hive brought is a bill, but, as an imperfect measure, it was
alike their duty, and for the interest of the people, that it
should be submitted in its present shape.
Mr. T. D. ACLAND was of opinion that, on the whole,
the government had acted wisely with respect to this ques-
tion, and he hoped their measure would be rewarded by
increased prosperity among the people. He considered
that there was much misunderstanding on this subject;
and he thought the dissenters had acted unwisely in opposing
the grant at the present moment. Numbers who attended
dissenters' chapels had no conscientious objection to the r-
vice of the church; they were probably drawn from their
parish church by stimulating appeals to their feelings; but,
if the question were fairly placed before them, they would
prefer to have their children instructed by an intelligent
and educated clergyman of the church. He knew an
instance where, in live schools connected with the Na-
tional Society, and containing 1,120 children, only
350 were the children of parents belonging to the
church; 220 belonged to Wesleyan., 160 to Imn pendent'',
98 to baptists, and 289 to other denomination.. Out of the
two-thirds thus belonging to dissenting parents, only six had
objected, chiefly on the ground of the time occupied, to the
religious teaclaiiig of the school. The clergyman held a
Sunday afternoon service in the school, intimating that only
those who wished to do so need attend ; and the result was,
that nearly the whole were present. (Hear, hoar.) These
and other facts with which he was acquainted proved that
the objections of dissenters to the teaching in the church
'shoots were much ler than many person. supposed. The
clergy, on the other side—at least all those of moderate
views—were prepared to meet this spirit in their mode of
conducting their schools; but they should not be asked to
establish as a principle the giving of different kinds of
instruction, in the same school, to the children of churchmen
and of dissenters. Not all the government grants that
would be offered, would induce the clersy to forego their
religious teaching; end he doubted not that the dissenters
would display the game attachment to their own system of
education. He respected such conscientious feelhags. He
should vote in favour of these minutes f r a reason which
might appear somewhat paradoxical : because he believed
the state could not be the educator of the people. The state
could not educate the people, but it could see that they were
educated; it could foster, promote, and extend education ;
and thin ho considered it the duty of the government
to do. On this subject the church had made
largo concessions. Not long ago, the majority of
churchmen, probably in distrust of the intentione of go-
vernment, contended that nothing ought to be done tending
to take eduction out of the Minds of the church. But that
feeling was now removed ; and one main reason of this was
the judicious selection which had been made of inspectors.
The minutes themselves had been conceived in the moat
practical spirit ; and he thankfully accepted them as evi-
dence of the intention of government to aid the exertions of
those devoted men, who, in all parts of the country, were
labouring in the cause of education. No system of educa-
tion could bo perfect which passed over these men, we:ether
they were thurchmen or disinters. (Hear, hear.)
He regretted the depreciating way in which Sunday
schools had been spukan of; he admired the
christian faith and devotedness which animated the con-
ductors of thee schools, themselves mostly working men and
women. The Rev. Mr. Slade, rector of Belton, In Lanca-
shire, had effected an immense revolution amongst the work-
ing population by means of his Sunday schools, in which
upwards of 1,109 children were taught. lie was far from
underrating the voluntary system, but rejoiced that it was to
be fort-red by the government grant. lie doubted not that
the half million which had been granted lathe last ten years
had called forth voluntary contributions to the amount of at
least a million and a quarter. (Hear, hear) He regretted
the course taken by the honourable baronet (Sir R.
Peel), the member for Tamworth, which could only Increase
the difficulties of the government, by bringing in the question
of the Roman catholic,. (Hear, hear.) The plain English
of this s. erred to be, that those who should seat occupy the
Treasury benches would be prepared to establish a regular
system of state education. For his own part, he thankfully
accepted the plan of the present government. (Hear.) Let
hen. members ally themselves rather with men who had
sincere religious convictions than with those who,on entering
the school door, seemed to leave their religious opinions out-
side. (Hear, beer.) By promoting the formation of normal
schools, the government had seized the real difficulty of the
question ; and the course pursued must tend to increase the
supply, so much needed, of efficient teachers. It was most
important for the church that the Lumber of humble, work-
ing MiII'SIOTS should be increased ; and, though he would
never ask the public money for such a purpose, he was
anxious that really useful men should not be debarred from
placing themselves in a position of greater usefulness.. In
conclusion, be expressed a hope that the labours of christians
in the cause of education would cease to be embittered by
the struggles of party and the rancour of sectarian feelings.
Mr. H. BEItEELEY said that he approved of the
general principles of the bill, but be disapproved of some of
the detail., and regretted that he was obliged to vote in oppo-
sition to it.

Sir J. PAKINGTON was anxious to state to the house
the reasons why he would not gire his support to this
amendment; he believed that in many instances in church
schools, the principle contended for by the hon. baronet was
fully carritd out. He considered that religious education
should, in all cues, be joined to secular education ; but, at
the same time, be was not prepared to support any vote
which would make that principle compulsory.
Sir B. HALL said that he approved of the amendment of
his hon. friend, and he certainly would vote fur it. As it
wu clear that the proposal of the government would be car-
ried into effect, he thought that the best thing they could do
was to make it as palatable u possible to all classes of the
community ; and he believed that the amendment of his
hon. friend would have that effect. He was not at all sur-
prised at the course taken by the hon. members for Stirling-
shire and Kent, because they approved of education being
entirely exclusive
Sir J. C. HOB/MUSE suggested to the hon. baronet
to reserve what he had to say until the motion of the hon.
member for Southwark was before them on Monday next.
Sir B. HALL said that he was very thankful to the right
hon. baronet for his suggestion, but as he had risen twelve
times already before no wee allowed to speak, he would now
make the few observations he had intended to express. lie
then proceeded to say, that though he had no great favour
for the Roman cetholica, yet that it was his opinion, as will
as that of the noble lord at the heed of the government, that
they should not be excluded. He did not, however, agree
with him in thinking that they tent ht to be afraid of the
" no popery" cry which the Wesleyans were likely
to raise. That was only putting off the evil day. He
thought that the beet thing that government could do
would be to bring forward some minutes of court-
, ell in which the Roman Catholics would be admitted.
He believed the real cause of dissent in Wales was the
practice of sending to the people clergymen who could not
preach to them in their own language; and he thought great
good would arise from clergymen being appointed who
understood the Welsh tongue. The remainder of the hon.
baronet's speech was very indistinctly heard in the gallery.

Mr. HENLEY Hkid, the noble lord at the head of use
government had spoken in tavour of the motion, by saying to
war a hardship that the children of dissenters attending the •
church of England schools should be forced to learn tho
church catechism and liturgy. Hon. gentlemen on ok
(Mr. Henley's) side of the house had also advocated the
principle iavolTed in the motion of the hen. baronet, and nip
he supposed they intended to Tote against it. (Hear and
laughter.) He, however, disapproved, under the plea •
conscience, of compelling persons who might set up Church
of England whools, by receiving into such schooh the
children of dissenters, to do that which in th. it conscience
they believed it an evil to do; and he warned the noble lord
at the head of the government, that it he ever attempted to
force on the Church of England the education of her people,
in a way which her convictions told her was not right, he
would create an opposition which he little calculated apse,
If the church war not allowed to instruct youth in her own
religion, he believed she would have nothing at all to do
with their tuition.
-•- - - -

Sir G. GREY would have addressed the house earlier it
the debate, hut from the time at which the hon. member
who moved the amendment addressed the house down es
the speech of the hon member for Droitwich, not one word
had been said about the specific motion before the house;
but all hon. members had dealt with the general queen*
and it was in fact a continuance of the debate of the last
three nights. He wax, however, unwilling to interrupt hen.
gentlemen who wished to state their opinions on the gem*
question. The hon. member who had just eat down had
confined himself strictly to the motion, anal he theinked him
for doing so. But at the same time he widely differed
with him so to the course which he thought
should be pursued by the clergy and the church ; he us
rather disposed to adopt the advice given by the hon. mem.
her for Droitwich, and that of the hon. member for Somenu
shire, which was contained. in a speech full of just and
honourable feeling. (Hear, hear.) Although it was not the
intention of the government to impose it as a condition that
all the schools should he extended to the children of Num.
who objected to the religious instruction of the church, still
he hoped that the system of not enforcing the reading of the
catechism and the liturgy would be universe!. Owing to
the expression of a similar sentiment by his noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) the honourable member for Oxford-
shire teemed to think that it was the intention of the
government to enforce some such provi.ion. This
would be inconsistent with the course which the govern-
ment thought it their duty to take. It was nut propene/ to
enfotee any new condition in the schools that received pm.
liamcntary aid, but to met existing institutions, and to
I raise the characters of the schoolmasters. It they were te
I adopt the principle of the hon. member fur the Tower
ffsmlets, it would be inconsistent with those voluntary
I efforts which, while the government did not eutimly trust
to them, they did not intend entirely to discard. But if
they were to say to the British and Foreign School Society,
or the National School Society, or the Wedeyans, or the
Roman Catholics (whom he hoped to ore included in the
grant)--(hear, hear)—" You must conform to these con-
ditions." the British and Foreign School Society, and Na-
tional School Society, would be obliged to alter one of their
fundamental rules, and the same thing would happen to all
the voluntary societies. He should therefore oppose the
resolution.

•
Mr. ROEBUCK said there was one thing which mast be
gratifying to the friends of liberal education, who fur lean
had been desirous of forwarding it, that there was one uni-
versal feeling among all in that house whose opitdotu weft
worth hearing that there was necessity for some education,
and that eventually it must include all clam'. But these
bad else been an opinion expressed in that house that person'
entertaining the sentiments of the hon. member for the
Tower Hamlet", and even of the right hon. baronet the
member for Tanaworth, and the noble lord at the
head of the government, were open to the impu-
tatiou of being infidels, because they did not come op
to the strict letter of certain opinions. Every one had said,
and the principle was universally acknowledged, that it was
the duty of the government to educate the people. He
discredited the intolerance which existed out of doom, sad
the opinions that the government were not justified in inter-
fering with education, and would assume that it was theirduty
—but he would also assume that it was their dutyte educate
the largest number possible. The right hon. baronet the
member for Dorchester and the right hon. gentleman the
rem member
bfaer
p'll'arzew_oratnhd, saidi(
(M r.
. Roenoth uBcik'e) whoaulflde4ruuncoavieirit—lby
another," Do not educate half the people." The noble land
(J. Russell) however, would educate half the mule, and
leave the rest in ignorance. The right honourable
baronet (Sr R. Peel) said, speaking of Manchester,
he wished for such • spirit of tolerance as regards autisticn
that we might be relieved from the savage ignorance white
now oppressed society. But the noble lord (J. Russell) did not
go so far; and this reminded him (Mr. Roebuck) of a pro-
phecy which he uttered the other night, that, go as far as the
noble lord would, the right hen. baronet would go farther.
(Cheers, and " Hear, lieu.") A firtunate thing it was for
England; for they should haw the people educated in spite
of the hon. member fur Kent, and have the people cad
chrietians ; and while the noble lord and the right boa,
baronet were manning the neck and neck race of morality,
he did not care which came in first. (Hear, hear.) He
wanted to know whet that religious education meant '
which was talked of by so many members who differed se
widely ? By education he meant the fashioning of the mind
to fit it by morality fur the pursuit of happiness in this world
end by eionsequenee in the next. Ho set before hinivelf the
various adjuasts by which it wag possible to talkie the
minds of the people. That they were to be given knew-
ledge—it might be geographical, historical, or any other—
was not dispu, ed ; but then come the fashicniug of their
habits. There was the opinion of their families, the opinion
of society, the law and • future state. All these were ad-
juncts from which their habits were to le formed, and the last
was called gien. What was now raked ai • bug-bear? What
did they differ about but those feetastio dogmata whirl
caused separation between man and man. Every one must
wish that the exp. ctation of a future state of rewarloand
punishments would act on the conduct of men so so to lead
them to virtue; but this was not to bo done by religious
hatred. What he asked was, that knowledge should he
communicated, about which there was no difference. All
dirference was on the subject of religion. Were not the Ro-
man catholics, the baptists, even the Jews, good fatherly
good brothers, good citizens ? Then their religion
did not prevent this were they not all good
men in spite of their differences of religion ? II
so, what did the noble lord (J. Russell) and the right
hon. baronet (Sir It. Peel) mean, when they said teat
religion must be taught? He (Mr. Roebui k) did not
object to that ; but they raised a standard of religion which
was their own ; and the hon. member for Kent would have
them take from his mind the steadied of religion he who
said that all who did not agree with him were doomed. Put
an " A " in the place of the " 0," and that would give his
real meaning. (Hear, and laughter.) Ile had no such extra-
ordinary estimate of the intellectual and mural capacity of
the honourable member, as to induce him (Mr. Roebuck)
to take the hon. member as a type of excellence, although he
set himself up as one. The Wesleyan said the were
not content that error should be taught in
the schools, so they objected to the admiaioa
the doctrines of the Reman catholic', and they
ended by saying that they. hoped the time was comic g wiles
there would be full religious tolerance. But by tolerance
they meant their own religion. They entertained a draft
about the minutes. because they extended some of the good
things of thin world in the shape of a grant to the Romaa
catholic., and they applied to the noble lord ; sad, after
some consultations, their minds were partially eati'ficd that
the Roman catholic were excluded; that setisfoction must
have been diminished by the proceedings of the last few
days. The noble lord said that this exclmion would not be
for a long time—it might, only for this 100,0001. What said
the right bon. baronet? The noble lord and the right
honourable baronet were like boys chalking on the
table—John chalked up to the catholics, but Robert
chalked further. (" Hear, bear, hear," and laughter.)
The good sense of the house had put an end to any hallu-
cination on this point. It would be impossible fur soy
administratioa, whether that of the noble lord or the right
hon. baronet, to resist this principle ; or even in the event d
the realisation of such • wild and wondrous supposition se
that the noble lord the member for Lynn should form ma
administration. (Cheers and laughter). Nay, even if the
hon. baronet who sat near him (Sir R. !Nth') were in olB* •
he would he so pressed by its remonsibility, that for-
getting all the warnings and feelings of Oxford,
he would have to leave it and seek some borough.
He could not at the same time represent the intolerance of ,
Oxford and be the prime minister of England. (Cheers.)
Then as regarded the practical consideration of the queened,
the hon. member foe the Tower hamlets might rionaider
his motion as carried; for there were but two 'rayed
evading the difficulty. In a country like ours, which well
full of religious differences, it was impossible to create XL
united feelieg with respect to religious dogmata so as to tack
children in the same schoolroom. It could not be doss.
(Hear, bear, hear.) Therefore, this result followed,
that there must etther be a multitudinous division d
schools, or these religious dogmata must be excluded
from them, and be taught by the religious testae'
of each psi titular sect. The noble local " I will pro-
ceed step by step, as much as the people of England MR
permit me." The noble lord had that mimics of conscience
—(he could amaze the noble lerd he did not mean it offer
lively, fur he had the
ehich was
greatest reep:lsti
respect forug
the(
,nobhletevlorsi
aen English )
d
was a sort of caoutchouc ball, which foil meal the course
the pressure applied to it. (Laughter.) "twill," said the
noble lord, "include the catholic' in my embrace. It eo
cogemttiengio
the
ee
syt.eameluft4l,B;thilel I.l,B47wlithermot do
..
and
die.bakiutnl
the
government will expand—l will have a larger sirs
end.by, and the catholic' will be received into myesrdml
embrace, as they are within the math of my mind shoat
(Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Roebuck) wanted to know if tkie
was communicated to the Weeleyans ? (Hear, hear.) It
was not. (" Heir, hear," from Sir 0. Grey.) Did the n."
hon. baronet who cheered mean to say that, when the cow
naunicetion was made to the Wade an connexioe, se they
were called, they were told that in 1848 the Roman alkalis
would be included? (Hear, hear.) No such drag. TAd
was • knowledge unknown to them, and they were tat
8M
the tutor, would be like the hippy '47, and
they would have their exclusive intohranoe. (ChtteL)
But were they not certain, and were not the el'esleysos
gnu
taro, of what was coming ? There was • large majority is
favour of the 100,0001., and they would go to their
tuents, when some of them would be turned (Run
hear, and laughter.) When some came hock and had sera
years before tnem—he did not say " us" (laughter) —cut"'
and benevolent feelings would be more gener .1, and all pa-
ties would be admitted to the benefit of education. He
pledged his good faith to the prophecy, that the next Wiii"
would see the catholic' included in that vote. (these, hoc)
But what would they think of the men who entered ate
communication with the government, and whom be even asw
shadowed before him with white cravats. no shirt collage
and black coats—(laughter)—and who raised the 'Matti

facet eter.. (Hear.) Protestant intervenes was
sod of the two alternatives before the govern-
s,4 which was talked of this year, namely, that the
ets were to be taught in different schools, according
varier se- peculiar dogmata,—would be done away with ;
sad °Ws °e°
would have the noble lord proposing the
they
„hit, namely, that persona of all persuasions were to be
together within the national schools. (Hear, hear.)
t"ght
tool yielded to those who said they would not
The 11110ney to propagate error. Ile 11e. Roebuck)
P" IMir • twhat th ber ea
crealdaot take thetr money to propel* e ey err
s es error,
but he would say, " I am going to take your
won to rescue the people from that 'hate or Vl7llO igno.
raw described by the right hon. baronet—l take your
weey ass matter of police,"--hr would not put it on any
higher eround,—and, "till you elevate yourselves to feelings'
higher tonaideration. And, as you allowed me to
of s
creole a police a justiciary, and an army, I will take
your muuey to create schools and schoolmasters in order.
Without any infringement of your conwience, to render you
e and the moon happy." (Cheers.) Such was the
Jaeger e he would use in
thee'th fimt instance till step
andep
be made them met off lough of intolerance, led
them to that bright sphere of tolerance, kindneu, and
remedy in which perfect public education would be
-mei, The noble lord, on the other hand, would lead
them by steps of *irony, rind through sectarian differences
ger sect was forcing the noble lord on to that system. His
erso tots liberality which led, but a liberality which was
weed; a liberality only. liberal when others were mere
ewe' ; which was only right when others were more right.
(Cheers.) He was wrong when left to himself (Hear,
hem.) He should let the people know that government was
without passion, and had no desire to side with one party or
the other, but wished well to sll,and was anxious to advance
the happiness of all setts without battle, fighting.
or agony. and without creating all those ill feel-
ings which every contest, such as was now going on,
must inveritably produce. (Hear.) Could he for a moment
hesitate as to the vote which he should give on the present
oreasioa ? Not at ell. Whatever might he the consequences
to himself. he hal formed for himself such notions as he
deferred. Believing that they were advancing, day by day,
in eirilisetion, he was convinced that every government in
teas country would be forted into the track which he
descrihed—that of perfect toleration, and the absence of all
seas., feeling nn the part of the government, and an
utter disregard of the particular hatreds and differences of
,ace sect; and, therefore, he would support the motion of
the bon, member for the Tower Hamlets. (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not expect that be would
have been called on to address the house again on the pre-
membereect ; hut, after the speeches made both by the hon.
e for Maryiehone and the hon. and learned gentle.
man, he tell it nee-emery to address the h ease again. He
conceived that he had stated clearly, and from the authentic
document what was the statement. made by the secretary
of the committee of privy council to the Wesleyan body,
bat the bon. and learned gentleman lost sight of the whole
statement, and raised up an edifice of his own imagination.
(Hear. hear.) He had stoppered that the Wesleyan' came
to them to ask that the Roman catholic, should be excluded
—that we said there was a time when they might be
admitted—that still they were left with the belief
that they should not be admitted, and likewise
that the government, at lease so far as he (Lewd J. Russell)
represented it, had an elastic conscience—(laughter)—about
tree things, and though they felt great reluctance about ad-
mitting them in the present year, they would probably admi
them ix some future year if there was no objection. He
(Lord J. Russell) could have no objection to the education
of the Roman catholics from the funds of the state, because in
1829 he already agreed rod submitted to parliament a minute i
by which the education of the Roman catholic* in their own
version was to be established—(hear, hear)—and, therefore,
to pretend that he had a conscientious objection to the edu-
cation of the ltomau catholic was impossible. What the
hon. and learned gentleman, therefore, said was the creation
d hi* own imagination. The broad ground on which he had
placed this was that which he had said in 1839—what he said
since—namely, that he saw a strong objection in the public
mind eontrary to his own, and that he did not like to shock
and disturb that public feeling. thinking it more advisable to
wait tile it became more favourable to hie own opinion, when he
'weld propose the establishment of such secleoole. One of
the sentences which he read last night wax, that there would
be other minutes, and that separate provision would be pro-
posed for Roman catholic schools; so far was he from saying
to the Wesleyan' that ne provision was to be made for the
Roman catholics. Any proposition fur that purpose
would come before parliament, and the Wesleyan,
would have the opportunity of opposing it. Really,
how a person of the hon gentleman's acuteness could
say that the Wesleyan' were deceived after the statements
which he had made, almost surpassed his comprehension.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to what the hon. member for
Marylebone stated, that he refused to sec the Roman catholic
bishopa, he could only say that but one of the Roman catholic
biahops cleared to see him before the minute respecting the
Roman catholics was determined upon, and he said that
nothing shnuld be done without seeing that Roman
catholic bishop before considering the minute. That
was not a refusal to see him. (Hear, hecar.) With
respect to refusing to see the dissenters, he mold also
say that he saw deputations from them, even two from Leeds,
who urged various objections to the scheme he proposed.
Having a great many other public matters to attend to, he
thought the hon. baronet should not make those statements
without iufurmiog him of the particulars in order that he
might answer them. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
motion of his hon. friend, if it had been more considered
during the debits, lee did not drink so many members would
have declared that they would support it. Its it observed that
the principle ass which they hied gone, e as that of giving sup-
port to different societies and reboots, supported i the main
by voluntary contributions. They began in 1833 with giv-
ing aid to the National Society and the British and Foreign
School Society. That provision shut out a great number
of the inhabitants of the country, and, as the right hon.
baronet ( Sir R. Peel) observed, the Wesleyan* were excluded
from it so well as the Roman catholic., because, by their
constitution, they could sot avail themselves of the grant.
Last year they lead said—and they had not gone farther—
that they would, in special cases, listen to epplicatione, and,
if the grounds alleged were sufficient, entertain them
favourably. But they must still remember, that the great
mass of applications would come from bodies connected with
one or other of those two societies, and who had already mode
large suiscriptions of their own ; and how did the hon.
baronet propane to treat these ? His proposal was, that in
any plan for promoting education by pecuniary waist-
line from the state, provision should be made that
in schools receiving such assistance, the opportunity
of participating in all instruction other than religious
should be afforded to children whose parents might
object to the religious doctrines taught in such schools.
The effect of such a regulation would be to prevent the
national society from receiving any all from this grant as
being contrary to the fundamental basis of their society.
(Hear.) Then let them look to the British and Foreign
School Society, which was the most effective for bringing to.
tether the children of parents of different religious persurions.
They net down as the first of their
.fundemental rules, that
the bible should be read in all their schools—(hear) —and
their next rule was, that neither need nor catechism should
be admitted. But the proposal of the hon. baronet was, that
the parent. should have it is their power to determine that
their children should receive secular instruction only, apart
altogether from religious instruction of any kind. He very
much deuhted, therefore, if the British and Foreign School
Society could r.tcrive aid from the grant, if it were given on
principles so directly contrary to their two leading rules. I
(Hear, hear.) Tao two main societies then, the schools in
connexion with which it was proposed to assist, would be
prevented from receiving any aid from this grant of
190,000 e, and the effect of such a resolution would be
to defeat altogether the intent and meaning of the grant.
He had before said th it he thought it would be right en the
ease of the church schools, in localities where there were a
number of the children of dissenting parents who could
not be instructed in the catechism, that they should
be received without being obliged to participate in
that part of the duties of the school. There was
one obvious objection which the dissenter would
state against his children being taught the church catechism,
which was—that the answer to the second question in that
catechism required the child to sty that he received his
name from his godfathers and godmothers, whereas god-
fathers and goduothem in his cme had nothing to do
with it. And with regard to Roman catholic children, if it were
objected to their reading the bible, it might be right, in
certain cases, to exempt them, but such exemption could
not be adopted as a general rule, in violation of one of the
fundamental rules of the society. He hoped the hon. baronet
would see that, if he succeeded is his motion, the grant of
100,0001. would he wholly ineffectual for the purp we for
which it was made—that of affording assistance by the state
to education. (Cries of "Divide.")
Captain HARRIS observed that the hostility of that
Part of the deriding body on where behalf the hon.
baronet had brought forward this amendment was such
that, if he succeeded, it was doubtful whether they would
consent to participate in the grant. The agitation upon this
question had emceed a system of bitter hostility to the church
on the part of the independents. (Cries of " Divide.") lie
suggested that with regard to the workhouse schools, some
principle of apprenticing the Isom under the conerol of the
Inspectors might be adopted with advantage.
Mr. P. HOWARD, who was, also, frequently interrupted
by impatient calls fur the divcrion, was anxious to
say a few words in reference to the interview which the
Boma* catholic bishops had requested with the Prime Mi
nister. The Roman catholic bishops were naturally anxious
to see the noble lord previous to the 19th, when he was to
explain his plan. They had heard that deputations from
otter religious hoesies had been received by the noble lord,
and reports had gone abroad that the catholic* were to be
excluded, and that the question of the exclusion had been
made a condition by the Wesleyan' with the government;
and they knew also, that unless they could obtain the inter-
view before Monday, it would be wirier; they therefore wrote
to the noble lord on the 14th or 15th, soliciting an interview.
The answer of the noble lord would show that he declined to
see them berme the 19th, when they believed they would be
excluded. His reply way—, Lord John Russell prewar his
Compliments to Bishop Oriffithie, and will name a day fir
receiving the deputation of catholic bishops, before the intro-
duction of any measure relating to the education of the
children of poor esthetics. Iles Majesty's ministers, how-
ever, ham no immediate intention of promulgating minutes
of the privy council on that subject." (Hear, hear, and
cries of "divide.") This showed that the object was to
delay the interview for an indefinite period. He maintained
that the catholic hierarchy of England—the hierarchy of
that religion—was in force in this country when the
foundations of freedom were laid. (Hear, hear.)
He did not agree with the hon member for Somersetuhire
in his strictures en the right bon. baronet, the member for
Tamworth, for the acne/resents expressed by him in reference
to the children of the Roman catholic poor. On the eon-
trary he thought those generous sentiments did the=
11811. baronet great honour; and he felt we that

they
.legiskted in that spirit they would not consult the
true interests of the country.
Mr. ACLAND explained.
The house divided—For the amendment 74
Against it 2lO-136
The hoses went into committee, and the vote was nursed
to. The house resumed, and the report was ordered to be
brought up on Monday next.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS BILL.
On the question diet this bill be read • second time,
The Earl of MARCH suggested that the charges of the
bill should be defrayed out of the consolidated fund, and
not out of the county rate.
Mr. MILES was of a similar opinion.
Alter a short conversation,
The bill was p nitiymed.
BIRTHS' REGIS'CRATION (SCOTLAND) BILL, &c.
The LORD ADVOCATE (in answer te a question from
an hou. member) intimated that he should move the com-
mittee on this bill, and the Marriages (Scotland) Bill, on
Monday, and that he should hope to be able to take the
second reeding of the Scotch Law Amendment Bills on that
day. _ _

POOR LAW,
Sir 0. GREY obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend
the laws relating to the removal of poor persons from Eng-
land and Scotland. The hill he stated to be rendered neces-
sary by certain difficulties which had occurred in the law an
it now stood.
Leave given, and bill brought in.
FEVER ACT.
. . _

On the motion of Mr. LAIBOIZ 11;11E, the Lords' Amend-
ments to this art were agreed to.
The house adjourned at one o'clock.

he eriirtigo.

MAILS.
The overland Bored mails, rim Mane'llea, to the Mediterranean,
Egypt, Aden. Perkin, India, Hong Kong, Me., will be made up to the
evening of the 2lth ApriL
the mail. for Vigo, Oporto, Lisbon, Madeira. Cads, and Gibraltar,
will be made uo on the morning of the 27th April.
The mall. for New South Wales, Van Lbemenh Land, and New
Zioland will be mad.. up on the evening of the 30th April.
The West India mail., excluding thaw for enrich Bandon., end
he Ilan/malt, will be made up on the morning of the let May.
Tim ',Friday& emit. for Gibraltar, Malta, Dena, the lonian
Kdrept, Aden, Ceylon, India, Boo•Kadig,and China, ma Southampton,
will be made up an the morning of the 3rd May,
The mails for Briti,b North America, Bermuda, and the UrAted
Shawl, will be made up on the evening of the and May.
The mails for the Brealle, the itlrer Plate, Meets Video, Penman-
=militia, Madeira, and Bawds Apes, will be made up so the
(tithe 4di May.

HIGH WATS& AT LONDON-BRIDGE
Tom —144440 r, 14 as prt f ; Altera," 49 min. prt 9.
Toalassow—Manias, IS WA. pot 10; Afterioaa, 2am prt 11.

LONDON, SATURDAY, APRIL 24

SIR WILLIAM CLAT's amendment was negatived
last night, as impracticable at least for the pres nt,
although so desirably in the eyes of all, that no °Hew-
tunity will be lost for reaching its gradual attainment.
Such, at least, was the general impression.
Controversy on the great question of National
Education is at an end; overwhelming as the majority
was on Thursday night, more than half of the minority
voted against it, not because it went too far, but be-
cause it did not ge far enough. With the doubtful
exception of Mr. BRIGHT, and the still more doubtful
exception of Mr. GISBORNE, no one was prepared to
adopt the resolw ions of Crosby-hall ; indeed, no
parties more emphatically cheered Sir ROBERT PEEL'S
declaration of the right and duty of the State to
educate the people, than the gentlemen who subse-
quently voted in the minority. We congratulate the
congregationaliets on the victory that has been pitied
for them over themselves; they will share largely in
the advantages of that triumph which they have la-
boured to obstruct, asthey would havesuffered severely,
in common with the rest of the community, from that
defeat which they exerted themselves to achieve. It will
require time and prudence for the more violent sec-
tion of the nonconformists to retrieve the false steps
they have taken ; we trust that moderation will re-
turn to their councils, and that they will abandon
their insane project of multiplying the race of the
MIALLS and the STURGES, the plagues of every elec-
tion. and the rejected of every constituency. A sub-
scription to send impracticable intruders to the
hustings of every popular district for the mere pur-
poee of being defeated, is a scheme so utterly absurd,
and so notoriously mischievous, that we should wonder
at its being entertained by sane men, if we did not
know the strength of that vanity which tempts "the
illustrious obscure" to advertise their existence,
and to court notoriety when they cannot acquire
fame. Perseverance in such a project will in-
jure no one but themselves; the opinion of the
country on the great question of national education
!stands recorded by a vote of a larger majority of the
people's representatives than almost ever affirmed
a great controverted question, and nothing short of a
miracle can procure the reversal of that decision.
National education must henceforth be progreasive ;
the present and the late ministers of the crown have
alike declared that the measure affirmed on Friday
morning is only temporary, and calculated to meet
existing exigencies. Lord J. RUSSELL proclaimed its
deficiencies, Sir J. GRAHAM denounced them, Sir R.
PEEL and Lord MoRPETII equally lamented them, tke
statesmanlike speech of Sir W. Ydotessvonvit indi-
cated the course which must be pursued for their cor-
rection. The Committee of Council, by admitting
the Wesleyan schools, has for ever abandoned the
restriction which limited its aid to the schools
of the two great associations, the National
and the British and Foreign School Societies ; the
House of Commons very clearly indicated that no
other restrictions which would exclude any class of
her Majesty's subjects from the benefits of the grant
would be tolerated by the house or the country.
Extension has thus become the law of the measure's
existence, apd before the ink witk which this sentence
is written becomes dry, it is more than probable that
measures will be taken to secure that extension.
It is erroneously assumed that the Wesleyan me-
thodists stipulated for the exclusion of Roman catholic.
from the benefits of the parliamentary grant, and
that her Majesty's ministers assented, or seemed to
assent, to such exclusion. Any one who reads the
correspondence attentively will see that the very
contrary is the case; the committee of council
expressly reserves to itself the power of framing such
future minutes as may comprehend the Roman catho-
lies, and the Wesleyans recognise that power by de-
claring that they will give such minutes their deli-
berate consideration. We happen to know the opinion
of the Wesleyan leaders on the subject; they are not
only willing, but anxious, that their Roman catholic fel-
low-subjects should receive a sound secular education ;
their only reluctance is an unwillingness that any
part of the public funds should be expended in the
inculcation of the special doctrines of the Romish
faith. They have no sympathies for the exaggerated
protestantism of Mr. PLUMPTRE and Col. SIRTHORP.
Now the Wesleyan objection touches the greatest
difficulty which besets the practical working of the
ministerial measure ; a difficulty beginning at its
point 'of departure from the plan which has so admir-
ably succeeded iu Ireland, and increasing in magni-
tude exactly in the same proportion as it recedes
from that plan; we mean, the recognition by the stale
of the doctrinal instruction given in the schools. If
churchmen and Wesleyan° must have a voice in the
choice of the inspectors of their schools, it will be im-
possible to refuse the same privilege to Roman
catholics ; if cognisance be taken of the Church
Catechism, the Westminster Confession of Faith, and
the Thirty-nine Articles, it is not easy to find a re-
ceipt for blindness against the Romish catechism and
the creed of the Council of Trent. This is the dilll-
culty which awaits solution; and no small ingenuity
must be exercised to evade it--for under existing
circumstances it cannot be completely overcome.
A whimsical result of this difficulty, arose in the
debate. Sir JAMES GRAHAM objected to the pro-
scription of the Douai and Rhenish version, because
they had been used by FENELON and BosSUET,
and had inspired the thoughts of PASCAL ; Lord JOHN
RUSSELL retorted that these illustrious diviues had
not quoted from English versions, but from the Latin
Vulgate. The contradiction was more apparent than
real, for the Douai version is a most literal, not to say
servile, translation from the Vulgate ; indeed it is so
literal and so Latin in its style, that it is not unde-
servedly called a translation which needs to be
translated." So notoriously is this the case, that the
present Pope has commissioned Mr. NEWMAN to pre-
pare a new version of the scriptures for the nee of
English catholics.
Sir J. PARINGTON offered the best possible sugges-
tion for escaping from the difficulty, the plan adopted
by the Rev. PRICE LEE in the admirable schools he
has established at Birmingham. Prayers, scripture-
reading, and religious instruction occupy half an hour
is the morning, and half an hour in the evening, no
pupils whose parents object being required to attend.
But this system is too fair and equitable to be gene-
rally adopted at a time when religious jealousy, we
had almost said religious rancour, ie so rife as it is ,
at prevent. Lord JOHN RUSSELL noticed the case of
the Liverpool eorpemtion schools, which were long con-
ducted on the equitable plan adopted by the Irish