The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-02 00:00:00

unsomfertade under, and very much dimetiafied with.
Bat if it were asked how were they to extend the use-
hassle of the thank upon the principles st church-
man, he would say they were not justified fa
rasintalaing 600 clergymen a Suffolk, 699 in Norfolk, and
607 in Lincoln, when so man churches could not be wanted.
If 160,0001. • year were distributed among 27 bishops.
and soothes 160,0001. to the deaaa and =apt' s, who
made a very gmdensely living, though he neva could tell
what they for their money—Oar, bar)—it would eer-
Shill be ajorlisious thing to apply a portion of this money
lesostagneeczoses whisk the motion of the noble lad
From his (Yr. Bright's) knowledge
of • eatheind city with which he was once can-
noned, though there wen excellent men belonging
to the mamba there, yet he believed the sum of
seem dlioleibutad amongst them was frightfully in exams of
cry setrisse they could render to the country in their situa-
tion. Bat there was a difficulty with which they were hardly
able &Cement to cope. Of the livings of which be bad
spoken, 6,096 were in the gift of private individuals, and
were, therefore, involved in some degree in the question of
private . It was a great misfortune that this system
should Save been allowed to grow up : it was a very difficult
thing to one with ; but he believed the time was coming
when it would have to be met and looked at in • very dif-
ferent light to that in which it had been heretofore regarded,
and when parliament would find acme way of getting out of
the difficulty. He would give the noble lord one word of ad-
via, lost he should be too sanguine. He believed that no
effort of that or the other house could draw back the main
portion of the on of England to subjection, either
religious or to any priesthood which could
be esta by tke lsislature or paid from any
public fund. (Hear, hear.) That time was altogether gone
by ; cad it would be well that the attention of parliament
should be turned rather to the question bow to gat oat of the
enormous and complicated difficulty of • state estaldisissent
which had under its administration an annualises's' ef her
or five million', and probably, if well applied, a penal* ems
of not less than 160 millions sterling. A church so formed smi
so organised mast disappoint the expectations of all Wane
seientious adherents, and be at the same time a sutdest of
political contention in almost every part of the comely.
He hod no hostility to the church as • religieus lady;
he never would say a syllable against any one of its NNW
ben because he was • dissenter or against any of its dap=
or principles; and he only ventured to speak on it hems= it
was a great public question—political in that house, be be-
laved, muck more than religious. As representing a es-
stkuency, and being connected with a district, where non-
conformity prevailed much more than Church-of-E @glands's,
he had thought he might be permitted to state what the
non-conformists were doing, and to show that the present
organiiation of the church, and its connexion with the state,
was a state tithing. which could not long be endured, and
which did not fulfil the requirements which churchmen,
such as the noble lord, expected at its hands.
Mr. W. P. WOOD warmly supported the motion ; and, in
the course of his illustration of the number of churches built
by the exertions of bodies of persons and by private indivi-
duals, alluded to one partly in St. Margaret's and partly in
St. John's, Westminster, which had been erected by' the
munificence of a lady " whoa praise was in all the churches"
(Miss Burdett Coutts), and who was about to endow it, to
build a parsonage hose, to build schools, and endow them
also.
Mr. HORSMAN contended that there was nothing either
in the tone or object of the noble lord's speech which could
be considered of en aggressive character as regarded the dis-
senter ; here was a large field where All might meet, not for
the purpose of sectarian hostility, but for the higher purpose
of pure christian rivalry.
Mr. E. HERBERT hoped the hon. member for Montrose
would not press his amendment.
Mr. HUME said he had been misunderstood. He dif-
fered from some of the statements made by the noble lord,
and with regard to the result that would arise from the
building of churches and the appointment of more atm -
men. He did not deny that spiritual destitution existed •
but when the noble lord said that the providing for this
spiiritual destitution would be the means of removing physical
distress, he begged leave to differ from him. Now, if he
agreed to this inquiry, it would be considered that he ad-
mitted that there was nothing else to be done. (Order,
order.) The first amendment which he proposed was that
the inquiry should not have reference to the whole popula-
tion of a perish, but to those of the inhabitants in it who
beleaged to the church.
Mr. BRIGHT hoped the noble lord would have no objec-
tion to the amendment for uniting small parishes when it
would be practicable and advantageous.
Mr. OOULBURN hoped his noble friend would be cau-
tious before he admitted such an amendment. There were
two modes of defeating a proposition ; one was by positive
resistance. la the present instance there was evidently no
hops of name from that method. The other was to impose
on the oommioioners to be appointed such a mass of
duties as it would be impossible for then to execute within
any definite period ; and as the whole importance of the
present question depended on giving it a speedy solution, he
hoped his noble friend would not consent to adopt the
amendment, which would lavolve the commierionen in legal
questions as to the power of consolidating livings under dif-
terent kinds of patronage, and other questions of that =tine
relating to property which it would take • very long time
to consider. (Hear, hear.) It was gratifying to him to find
that oae whom he so respected on public and private grounds
was the promoter of objects which he believed would be
most beneficial, not only in a religious, bat in a civil point
of view. (Hear.)
Hntra's amendment was then put, and negatived
without • division.
Mr. HUME would now propose to insert the words " and
to unite pariahs" where practicable and advantageous."
Lord ASHLEY said he concurred in the object lathe hon.
member for Manchester, because he believed it might be
desirable in some instances, particularly in London, to unite
parishes. Bat as be believed it would have the effect of
impeding the inquiry of the comminionen, he hoped he
would not press his amendment, although any proposition of
that sort, if made independently, he would support.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would object to the pro-
position of his noble Mend, if he was willing ti add the
words proposed. He thought it better not to add those words
which would give rise to difficulties counseled with questions
of property. The object might be desirable in itself, but it
ought not to be a matter of inquiry by this commission.
Mr. BROTHERTON hoped his hon. friend would with-
draw his amendment.
be F. BUXTON made a similar appeal,
Lewd ASHLEY said he had been grievously misunder-
stood in his former statement. He had been charged with
not making mention of the stints of the dissenters. In
bringing.fensard a question of this kind, which was purely
one relating to the church and its tree action, he did not
think it necessary specifically to refer to what had been done
by the absentees. (Hew, hear.) Had he been asking for
a grant of public money, or making a general statement re-
specting the spiritual destitution of the country at large, it
would be his duty to set before the house all that had
been demo and all that win doing by the great body
of nonconformists. (Rear, hear.) The hon. member
for Montrose bad been unjust to him in saying
that he coupled ragged echo= with the church exclusively.
He did no such thing, and it would be most unjust if he
wen not to say, on behalf of those who wire Interested In
schools, that they were deeply indebted to that body,
tamed
many of whom he acted on terms of the meet perfect
trecedance. (Hear, hear.) He must also allude to what fell
fres the hon. testator for Stockport he should be
sorry that say impression =AU exist on this mind that he
did net mama to the full the great efforts of the body to
width be belonged. (Hear, hear.) There was no one con-
nected with the manufacturing districts, and particularly
with the West Riding of Yorkshire, who must
sot see that, as vitriol' and as Christians they were moot
deeply and inexpressibly ladebted to the pious efforts of the
Wesleyan body, were haat for whose exertions he felt bound
to a whole districts would be worse than if in a state of
heithenbm. (Hear, hear.) He hoped he had now done
just= to the efforts of the dissenters. He did not say, as
was attdbated to him b the hon. member for Montrose,
that the providing of destitution would' do away
whit physical . What he said was, that if
=Lwere to sosteis wily 4,000 individuals, the physical
aof the es cost be necessarily better kaown to
the awes= and pa district visitors, and that the very
fact of—this knowledge would contribute much to the
alleviation of that distress. (Hear, hear.) At present die-
tress Ismail most in them =Sidi which were lead known.
Mr. BROWN said, that as the feeling of the house was
evidently against the amendment, he hoped his hon. friend
weld not peas it; although, as it was he who suggested the
wade, he should vote for it if his hon. friend insisted on a
Mr. HUME said he would pram the motion for • &rialto.
The house then divided, when there appeared,
For the original motion
For Mr. Hume's amendment lB-03
The original motion was then agreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL appealed to hon. members who had
notices en the paper to waive them, in order that the house
might go into committee on the Irish Poor Laws.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said be would not press his motion
for the levying of • rate upon the church revenues of Ire-
land, provided the hon. member for Rochdale would follow
his sample.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD sat= press the motion which he
had placed on the paper.
lord J. RUSSELL suggested that the hon. member had
better introduce his caption on the question that the Speaker
do leave the chair.
NEW BILL.

*Kr. PUSEY meted for leave to bring in a bill " to im-
prove the relation bet rem landlord and tenant in Ragland
and Weiss." The, has member said the bill wu in con-
formity with the moped of the Agricultural Customs Com-
mittee presented het yew. /Inept with regard to buildings,
it wasentirely an enabling bill.
Mr. NEWDEGATE would remind the hon. member
that, if there Wm anything all compulsory in the mea-
sure, it leas so far at with the report to which be
had refereed. He would, °waver, reserve all objections
until a future stage of the bill.
The motion was then agreed to.
POOR LAWS (IRELAND.
Lori 1. RUSSELL said that as the motion which he had
to make related to the report of the *Dimities appointed by
that hews to eassaider the subject of Irish poor laws. and as
that amiss had been embed by a large majority, he ni ed
then only ask the lumps to go into committee; and when
the house was in committee he would state whit he had to
propose.
Oa the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
P. CRAW FORD said the noble lord at the head of
the government had given notice of his intention to move
the following resolutions : " That in each of the next two
pen then shall be paid by nosy union in Inland 4 PM