The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
-
HOUSE OF LORDS.—TrEsDAT, MABCU 27.
TM Loam CitoncsLios took bk seat at 6 °Week.
PUBLIC MOM

SECOND READDIO.—Potty floooloss
EMU) IEADINCL—Out DJOII lyupn flesh.
PEITIOIIII.—Dy Ow Earl ti b flabar.
Foyle, kir peetestioa to oirletatunt—ebs, d
from dereymes Widows% we tbs
—Earl of ERNE, from the haelitanerarite ha
thn sway et Alldars. payleg she hem le
to the wilful friary of Meow of a "bee
Mt heed, creams RoLsense maws to petsa oresetelhoo—
Ma AR f, an Dowioublayss
oog alyreen and the wiamoy of Mats, whoa a nee
=TEfit ORDNIUM.—On the maim si Zed III2WILLIAI4,
cmle andeserion of former rooms Matto a paths weeks In
NOTIEIta OF MOTlON.—Laranes lemano.—The yep of
WATERFORD.= • . Meek aIISOOWWWISt
teamed to karat reef sets themserirtht
eiwarry, under the mineasset the tamminse d sem. edamstra.
nosseom Iteeserwrns or Resareoar.-lard sTAIIILIFT. on Wash
apnea • politica hen Slooltotrt, ccoltPlallgalt a• *Worn wr
arab eugktrake la WA Waugh.
PETTY SESSIONS BILL.
Lord CAIiPEELL, la scovitig the teoond reeding a Ede
bill, said its °Diet% was to place dies iod baseughs me the
emus footirg as essaties with regard to pep seedess; and
to enable the magistrates to same saitalleglases is eddel
to bold their petty serden. The 'die sod lemma limit
Stem the retorns while bulls= pidented en lbe swam if
the Marquis of slistary, spend several listened el the fa-
ellamuieuce to which inaglitnies had been subjected for
Eat want of proper amosusedadoo. The Val propcsed that
the expenses should be paid out of the county rate.
TM Illegals of SALISBURY said this bill was brought
is far the bluetit of certain gentler:ea who were very useful
to the eouatr y, but who were wended in providing paces
for the potty seeded to the number of 730 throughout the
satire ands,. The noble marquis complained of the great
oat which it mast entail on the 'stemma. The smallest
east &the erection of any of these Wlys would be bOOl. ;
and under any circumstances it ought not to be paid out of
the Nasty rate, but It &call be a charge ea the consolidated
feud. Ile did not think any matted been made out for the
=of tkis ; he therefdzstled to move that it
• second time that day six
Tee led of MALE/10MM said the noble and bursa
feed bed slimes • moss unfortuaats time fee Wash, be-
want 'stet a useseere. He eland like ram the "dm of
had Wades seftensed, far it had become aimed intolerablex
The peer sate and aunty rate in hie own wish of Club%
Chards bid issemeed to as derides siM within the lit
. twelve yeses; sod he was sot is dined le she magistrates •
further ebeineskamey pewee to increase them rates until the
raper:tram diesel rotes bal been amer.ded. He thenght
peeped, shouM be liable to the payment of rates as
well as reed ',sporty. Personal property was that which
was generally shies, notwithstanding which the cost of
Illeistaisisi she gesh was thrown entirely oa the land.
After a ftw weeds ban Dud Comm,
Lard STANLEY thought Owe was so subject more
worthy deb& lershilips* ornsidnatioa than the rapid d-
ame of esudy:sates. I. his own county, these rates bad
rhea from TIMM he 1823 to 179,0001. is 1849 ; sad it must
be remembered that they were asieseed by the local magi.
steaks, without any influence being exercised over each se-
moment by the ratepayer". The rates were thus levied
without any constitutios, check, and it was a matter which
required serious coesideratius. The bill was oaly
dm, but still it gave the magistrates the power to hareem
the county rates to erect buildings kw their own ocesefort
and convenience. They ought to guard carefally spinet
profuse and lavish expenditure; and it was • matter which
deserved the attention of the goverment, whether they
would not erase that clause which authorised the magistrates
to erect buildings where they did not now exist, and restrict
them to the hiring of suitable places. A provision should
also be inserted in the bill, that notice should be given at
the quarter swims of the intentioa of the magistrates to
hire any building. The object of the bill seemed to be a
laudable one, bet it west beyond the necessity of the cage.
Lard BEAUMONT said no cue would object to the first
pert of the bill, extending certain acts to city and borough
magistrate', which now applied only to the magi °. of
amities ; and the other question was a mere matter of
pounds, shillings, and pence. If it was a compulsory
bill he
should feel bound to oppove it—hut it was not so ; it was,
in feat, framed an the model of the bill applying to lock-up
houses, with which no doubt many of their dshipe were
well acquinted.
After a few words from the Earl of HARROWS! and Lord
CAWPSILL, which WOO inaudible in the gallery,
The blarquis of SALISBURY, upon the understanding
that eons anstadmints would be introduced ft ittee,
withdrew his amcndasent, and the bill was reed messed
time.
AUSTRALIA.
Lord MONTEAOLE, pursuent to notice, asked whether
it be the intention of the government to Jadedness a bill
during the present sari= for sifted.g ellanges in the consti-
tution of Australia ? Whether, in the neat that such is the
intention of the Secretary of State, despatches or other pa-
pers will be laid before valiant: nr, showing whether such
constitution's' changes Dave been sabosittei to the legislative
council and made known to her Itilejeety's subjects in Aus-
tralia ?
Sul OBEY said it was intended to introduce such a
meassre. The papers on the subject had been hid on the
table of the other house of pulianaest, in compliance with
as address to the crown ; sat tbs. immanent bad reason
to believe that the contemplated bill would meet with the
views of the people of Australia. He had endeavoured to
Wad the House of Commons to relax the rule which
vested his kis introducing the Dill in their lardehips' house, but
his efforts were wholly unsuccessful, otherwise that, bill
would now be before their lordships. But it wet not deemed
prudent to bring it in at the present moment in the other
hove, is consequence of the pressure of business.
Lord MONTEAOLE said that under those circumstances
he hoped his noble friend would produce, as soon as possible,
the papers which had been laid before the other house.
Their lordships then at a quarts? before seven o'clock ad-

theof elotiv'• Ia EDgland the
nneefelpel qualification was lower then Ireland ;
ego eseesquenes wee, that instead of there being 20,000
m in Dublin, there were Daly 2,900, although there
wife 111,000 occupation, 'Dressed to the poor-rate at 800,0001.
At runt, Dublin was tatted by seven wards, sin of whom
were solteleeted to collect 200,0001. a year of taxation,
then were 69 tas•oollecton • and sack ward had its solicitor
be
board of ofilcen. In ihe use of justice and mercy,
Ise asked that Dahlia should be emancipated from this
tyranny. (Hear, bear.) Buds wee the object of the bill he
resoled, on behalf of the corooratioe. Nererthelem, he
was disposed to accede to ths request of ths right hen See-
=Jar Island, end would consent that both the bills
be postponed till the government bill was into ;
and if it w-es found to mortise the broad prisciple of no
Szabo. without representation, it should have his support.
He hoped the right bon. the lord mayor of Dublin would
withdraw the amendment he bad proposed foe the reading
of
the bill a wooed time that day sir months.
Mr. T. O'BRIEN consented to do see, on condition of both
W hills being postponed.
Mr. GROGAN wee willing to suspend, bat not to with•
draw, his bill.
The Berl of LINCOLN did cot think it would be BM*
the government bill a fair chance, if any ote of the three
bills now on the paper were allowed to remain.
Mr. NUMB was in favour of postponing the bins; to V
they were rejected altogether, per baps sondes mere=
be dose this session. He suggested that the sewed
might be postponed for three weeks with the view of giving
the government time to prepare their bill.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he had so* his offer in tbel
scat sincere and bona fide spirit; but It was en indispensa-
ble sedition, that the present bills should be either with-
drawn or rejected. (Hear, tear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said this was placing the iniablb.l
ants of Dublin in an awkward position. The corporrion ef
Dublin, retuned by the free election of the burgesses, had
been for 10 yen liessly (spited by some, who
themselves tios mat respectable of the inhabitants, but whit
however, had net boss able to bring any charge of aegis* of
duty lutanist dot asepteetics. One of these bills was peonolad
by the compaetaina, another by the Chamber of Ossomemer,
sad the Wady an indtillual. If id's, Weyer, withdrawn
and if the govotsatest bill was not opposed,* master;
of these tine would be placed is avery Meadvastegeous

'G, MARCH 28, 18f9.

saludep ; and she to ache semarke on the charges
whiskered been brewed sneldle friend at the head
if the Onion office. la bat
_am; be must *ay that
it was Viva write that he had heats the hen. gentleman
state at the emailieseseteat of hie speech that hoshnull
ea-
etade item b 4 oonsiderstion. the gut idea what they
were to do with coatis's, • as well as that of
weseassi punishments; 'and his surprise was in-
Waged when he hoard the hon. gentleman express him-
self 41,6148111 y against the whole system of transportation,
which he described as a debased system of colonisation.
(User, heat.) If, after such a speech, the house adopted
the motion, it would pronounce a verdict against the con-
tinuum of transportation. (Bear, hear.) Did the hon.
gentleman intend to propose abutnvicts should no longer
be slat to any of the colonise, should be landed on
some foreign shore and there left to shift for themselves ?
I (Hear, • ear.) Be did not understand the hon. prole-
I man to object to the system of personal restraint. But
did he wish to see • return to the system which had
produced such fearful results in Van Diemen's Land ? Did
he Irish to see crowded into one colony err ry year four or
five thousand convicts, who had not undergone any reforma
tory proms, corrupting each other, and at length being
Vented loess on society ? (Hear, hear.) All he (Sir G.
Grey) asked of the house was, that if they determined that
transportation should be discontinued, they would not abolish
it by • side wind. (Hear, hear.) If they exempt d the Car.,
they must exempt other colouree also. (Hear, hear.) He did
sot deny the evils of transportation. Erns mast
arise from the infusion into any society of a class of
'risme like those to whom the motion referred. Under the
system pursued the object aimed at was the reform of that
I gays, and to send out to different colonies a small
number—us 11 as compared with those who were an-
nually liberated in this country—thus avoiding the evils
which bad arisen from sending out a large mats to ore
colony, and, by inducing the colonists to receive them,
giving them a chance of becoming useful members of
society. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member said he had
spoken without reference to the men which bad
been moved for the other evening. He (Sir G. Grey)
regretted that he had doue so; for bad he seen them,
he would bare abstained from s, me imputations which
he had cast on his noble friend (Earl Gray). There was
one imputation to which ice should not have thought it
worth while to advert had it net been received with a cheer.
(Hear, hear.) Ho teld in his hand the original despatch
cont.ining the three memorials referred to by the hon.
gentleman, dated respectively the 19th and 22nd of Decem-
ber, and the sth of January, and which we: c received cm
the 14th of March. Those despatches were about to be laid
on the table, and had the hon. gentleman waited be would
hare perctived that the imputation which he had thrown out
was sot warranted.
Mr. ADDERLEY said the papers to which he had alluded
were in the Morning Chrolsiels of the 20th of January, and
Lord Grey bed stated them to have been in his pcsseasion on
the 15th of. February.
Sir 0. GREY could only say that they were all received
by his noble friend on the 14th of March. Did the hon.
gentleman mean to say that the despatches of the governor
were in lord Grey's possession at the time which he had

to do full justice to the bentrarable, energetic, upright
character of the Cape collets's, he could not help
reminding the honourable gentleman who bad gone
with sock unmixed eulogy through their past his-
tory, with the ararent impression that all there had
been innocence and freedom, that domestic slavery was only
abolished &Übe Cape when it was aboished rn the West
ladies. (Hear, hear.) Most deeply sholid he deplore, most
decidedly deprecate, anything that savoured of retrogression
in colonisation. He was fully sensible how desirable it was
for the colonies to have the best possible class of colonists, by
whom to diffuse, throughout all the dependencies of Great
Britain, the habits, ideas, principles, and language of our
country. It was precisely this desire which actuated his
noble friend in the principle which he wished
to carry out in the distribution of our convicts
in our colonies. As to the extent of transport-
ation, let him remind the bon. gentle man himself,
as a chairman of quarter sessions, that every. sentence of
transportation pronounced at quarter sessions imposed upon
the government the necessity of finding a place of transpor-
tation for the convict, and thus complicated more and more
the difficulty of the case. (Hear, hear.) At the same time,
be Mould earnestly desire to remove the impression that
all, or the larger portion, of our criminal population was
transferred to the colonies. Such was by no means the
case. The number of male and female prisoners sentenced to
transportation, in England,Wales, and Scotland, in 1847, was
2,726, of whom 326 were from aid age and other circumstances
reported not removable, so that the total number of persons
sent abroad as convicts in that year was 2,400. What, ois
the oilier hand, had been the number of persons sentecced in
the same year, and in the same counties, to various terms of
imprisonment, varying from a week to three years ? The
number of persons sentenced to various terms of imprison-
ment that year was 15,956, and persons summarily convicted
by the magistrates 68,641; the whole of whom, of course,
remained at home, to be sent forth amongst society
at the expirati nt of their various sentences. He
oonsideted trenspertation a valuable punishment to
retain; but it could not be carried into effect' ranks&
the number of persons to be transported were kept within
reasonable limits, and unless, beyond those limit., some
other mode was observed of disposiog of our convict popula-
tion. (Heir, hear.) He quite admitted that it was most
desirable the fewest possible criminals should be at large,
mixing with society, and, as a matter of course, tainting it
with crime ; but the difficulty was how to avoid it. Yon
could not set rid of the difficulty by the aid of capitol
punishments, and you could not very well institute a general
system of perpetual imprissnmeret of all persons woes
convicted of an offence. He trusted the hovel
would not, by acceding to the motion, prevent
the government from distributing ern convicts amongst OW
coltnirs, in the manner of MUMS least calculated to annoy
the colonies themselves, and best adapted to restore the con-
victs to society. (Hear, bear )
Mr. HUME said the simple question was, would govern-
ment insist upon sending convicts to our colonies against the
express desire of those colonies? The hoc. member who
raised this important point had carefully endeavoured to
keep the question of transportation separate from the ques-
tion before the house, but the hon. member had felt it ne-
cessary to introduce that question, with reference to the
difficulties created by the overcrowded state of our
gaols. He (Mr. Hume) bad for many years past end's.
Inured to impress this particular subject upon the successive
governments of the country. Let him now repeat ems:ibid.
tally that the grand question of all in relation to this subject
was bow to lessen the amount of crime in this country.
(Hear, hear.) He should support the motion before the
house, because he was satisfied that, if carried, it would
force the government to apply itself to the most effective
means of reducing the amount of crime, and as one of the
most' effective means to the extension of education to all
classes—to each individual of the community. (Hear, hear.)
lie did not condemn transportation as • principle, bat
he certainly considered that the hones should exact from
the government &distinct assurance that convicts should not
he forced upon colonies 'against the will of those colonies.
He had no hesitation in eapresslng the belief, that under a
proper system the transmission of convicts to consenting
colonies might be rendered most beneficial at once to the
convicts and to the colonies; but at present chore was no
minister here, no department, whose business it was to make
a proper classification of prisoners previous to their
departure. The whole thing was rank confusion.
What was eminently needed war, a Minister of
Justice, one of whom leading duties it should be to superin-
tend such a classification of prisoners. (Hear, hear.) Had
there been such a minister here, he would never have sent
out to Bermuda as convicts, as there had been sent, numbers
of bays of tender age, quite incapable of the hard labour to
which convicts in that island were subjected. How was it
premed to remedy that overflow of oar pole which every-
where prevail ? It would never do, when men bad once
been sentenced by the laws, to let the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, or the Home Secretary in England,
discharge them from prison merely because there was no room
for them in the gaols. (Hear, hear.) Hire were we spend-
ing six or sev n millions a year for religious instruction; niftily
this expenditure ought to be so managed ae to reduce the
amount of crime amongst us. There must be something
done, and, in order to compel the government to do this
something, he should vote for the motion.
Major BLACK ALL concurred in the opinion that some-
tbiog should be done to effect a proper classification of pri-
soners in the bulks and in the gaols. As to the immediate
question before the house, it did not appear to him "
that the introduction of such convicts as those who
had been described by the right hon. gentleman could
be injurious to the colonists of the Cape in the way they
apprehended; on the contrary, it seemed to him that the
colory would benefit by the accession. (Hear, hear.) The
extended boundaries we had attained beyond Port Natal
rendered necessary a liege additional amount of labour in
the construction of public works in that daemon, and he
conceived that the employment of inelo seen for some years
on these works, under strict discipline, would at once greatly
benefit the colony, and enable the convicts themselves to
n-enter society under creditable circumetanger. (Hoer, hear.)
Mr. AOLIONBY thought that eleatever Mitieht kg the im
mediate fate of this motion, its dimeomien would domuch good.
It was minds' that the Home of Commons should pay more ,
and more attention toour coloaial interests, interests in which
the public at large knew itself to be deeply conoerned. (Hear,
hear.) It appeared to him that the right hon. gentleman
was dispersed to admit the general proposition conveyed by
the motion. (No, no!) He certainly had collected this
impression from the right hon. gentleman's speech. (Hear.)
The experiment that had been tried on what were termed
the Parkhurst boys, who were sent to Australia in 1843,
ought to teach the government • lesson. These " seedlings
of crime," as they were termed, so far from responding to the
expectation that had been formed from their ear. ful train-
ing in the Parkhurst prison, exhibited every degree of re-
Moment is vice and wickedness as soon as they arrived at their
destination. The report which had been sent home to the go-
vernment by Yr. G. Clarke, the protector of aborigines in
Australis, stated that the arrival of these Parkhurst boys
in that colony had proved more injurious than was
imaginable; they absconded from their employments and
went to live in the bush with the natives, who thought they
derived considerabadvantage from haviee Europeans
mongst them, but fall they obtaine as a d wperng owl edge
or vice ; and it was a common trick for these boys to write
obscene words on paper end to give them to the natives,
who heeded them in at tho shops as explanatory of what
they wanted' to purchase. Of the two methods of dealing
with convicts it was by far the more dangerous plan to
transport them, instead of retaining them at home where
they would always remain under the surveillance of ex-
perienced and competent officers.
Mr. SCOTT saidtbat although the'government might have
the power of sending convicts to any of the colonies, it was
not wise to exercise that power against the wishes and desires
of the colonists themselves. (Hear.) It was one thing to
nand out conviats and to throw them upon the g.eneral la-
bour market, and another to employ them exclusively upon
public works. The colonists did not find fault with that
mode of dealing with convicts. What they denied was the
right of the government to turn loose upon society in the
colonies convicts who had completed their term of trans-
portation, a practice whereby the whole fabric of society was
isontaminated and 'polluted, and that was the object of
the motion of the hon. member for North Staffordshire. It
would be a much fairer plan towards the colonists if the
convicts, after completing their terms, were to be made to
work out the amount of their passege-money, in ordee to de-
fray. the expense of their removal to England, previously to
*tor liberation. Another plan ought to be pursued, in all
eases where the colonists themselves did not interfere and ex-
press a wish that individual convicts should be permitted to
Tustin amonget them. The constantly increasing amount of
grime and destitution in England would always cause
a vast annual amount of convicts for transportation
to exist. This was a subject which demanded the most se
rious attention of the Home Seoretary, whose endistroun
ought to be directed towards preventing the colonies from
bang contaminated by a periodical influx of convicts. In
Van Diemen's Lend the convict population wet three-fourths
of the whole number of inhabitants.
Lord J. RUSSELL said be should not have risen had not
the bon member for Cockcrmouth misunderstood and mis-
stated whit had been said by his right hon. friend the Home
Secretary. The hon. member seemed to think that as
the purport of the resolution was to stop the transmission
of convicts to those colonies where their admission was
objected to, his r4ht honourable friend bad agreed to
that construction. His right hon. friend had objected to the
motion because of the terms used in it. The expression
" this hitherto unpolluted colony," if assented to, might I
lead to an inference that transportation to the colonies was to
be abolished. That was a very fair inference on the part of
bk.right bon Mend. But what he had really said was, that
if after convicts had beta sent to the Cape they were obleoted
he, and if when a trial had been fairly made, the colonists
Will continued to object to their reception, then and in
that muss it would not be deemed advisable to continue
to send convicts thither. He (Lord J. Rumen) trusted
this would be perfectly satisfactory. The hon. member
for Cothermouth expressed an opinion, that if bereaftelany
ether colonies INTO to object to the transportation of con-
vict& to their locality, the government would be bound not
to send any thither. He did not assent to that opinion.
With regard to the general question of secondary punish-
ments, it was far too vast to be entered upon at that moment.
The hon. member for Berwickshire bad expressed an opinion
which was the reveres of that generally entertained. The
general opinion was, that when a convict's term of imprison-
ment bad expired, ha usually found great difficulty in
obtaining employment, owing to the vast supply of labour,
and therefore it was advisable that moth persons should be
transported to a colony when labour was mares and
where the advantage Of character was not denied to them.
But the hon. member was for throwing all such persons on
the home market for labour. For, said he, after their term
of transportation has expired, let them be made to work
out the amount of their passsge money, and thue be trans-
mined to England at their own expense, where they would
earn their bread.
Mr. SCOTT observed that he had midst suck thing.

lima J. RUSSELL at lent so understood the hi.
number.
Mr. SCOTT.—What I said was, that the tontine
he made to urn their expenses as they were ■made nil'''.
Bermuda and Gibraltar.
Lord J. RUSSELL.—Such certainly woo the
;',..t
Bermuda and oihrettar, but it wu net desirable te
the system to Australia or the other colonies. It" L.. 1
to hold out inducements to comic's to stay in those niZt
after the terms of their sentences had expired, sod
there were Wrong reasons why they should do ro,
did exist a feeling against them. He had inseam Zt
cases where convicts had found a great difficulty la CAI
employment after their libera ion. One man is
whom he knew to be a good and religious pi reon.firte,...„
meat after his sentence had excited, and hie yorm7.Bt
Mates, finding out where he was employed, gen eat.."
tion, as they invariably did, to his employer at.
having been a convict, the consequence of
was his discharge from his situation sun his retaliate le
former hgh;ts. Under these circumnacces, as tha lona_
ber had obtained all he hoped for or intended by ha i":
he trusted he would not persist in praising it to a dinm7
which he must of necessity be opposed by her Bah... t
vernment.
Mr. DISRAELI hoped, after the mincer in whin
motion hod been met, that his hon. friend would an
in his motion. The question of secondary p
could not be opened on the present mutton, mitre
parts of the motion had been met, he most ray, is a
fair, and honourable way by the gerommee7o
trusted the government would not,
with the question of transp• nation.he arZa. 111
grounds of expenditure, whether it were for &Refire."'
for any other casual occurrence that might tem 41.1
question of secondary punishments and of tam e,
ought to be dealt with upon general principles. (a4,--,'
conversation respecting the publieuien of the ratinethß
resolutions transmitted from the Caps of Gerd By;
specting the transportation of convicts thither),
Mr. HEYWOOD stated that there was one coke} slim
which desired the transportation thither of comics,
yga
colony was the Mosquito settlement in Junks. (dheo4
There was a great dread of transportation
mavardioeutsecelasse E
lercie
eeof
abenngelifischiesocetrieecty, effect. He
this he
ewas masil=l.
4112
motion.

hoe
Mr. IiDDERLEY begged to
peipenctdolortebeitedndiagazioeio.n.gasitruhtelitlh:.,l;;;,_4:lli.eli
°HPePciiihadte birowughet vfoerrywaurdmhPiseramteotinonplin oneseqt his
,e2,4"--"o*ti.
o
pe,
ph
eth apologise
colonistsh existedlttfh
tw. hgft
ootaer
ehrndi as;
ihmeicaevxotv:hensi
tr irritationa
most
hjanhcuietitpooesoreadymyt
ade.
whenever
iu rlDtedot
ohhner:
right
vitthhceetiengrdrehcmtriohmnsouinu.list:feurosehmmouatnihdeub.pcmduththyereoe
ncossuunidendb
jtryeetTowdbystiii:ao4:,6.:2,„_
se
ninoetii,ith! he (Mr.
A divide dd e r
perseverel et e
yhyem)
haw ods satisfiedsue beifnuyuoitr,i:
nnneiooitbirmwsmaihemitimi,..itmisteethed:uninia
foil-
,tray
ly
es d
Sir G. GREY said he had already stated that leonine '
to be clearly understood that the government did an ni:
it odeimble to continue to send convicts to the Cusedgud-
Hop, regardless of the wishes of the colonies Belige—in,
given any distinct pledge upon the Idlest, es gs i."-
gentleman seemed to understand, but he meld N. giii
„peewee ntottnitintteionadseud to
th
to the Cape, in opposition to the remonetramm d tio a
Inlets there. Every consideration would be gives eel
stop transportation to any given colony. Rosen, sift,
prd to the Cape there could be no misundersualbl.
The motion was then withdrawn by leave.
MINISTERS' MONEY (IRELAND),
house to take into consideration the low Mang lithe
et ihit
arx. W
ailedF A'
DIA Ni
t i s te rs' movedM
to the repeal of so mush thereof as relates to Miff nee
tax ,• and further, to take into elnsideration the Wel
Will. 4, c. 114, called the ' Church Temporalities/is:it
the purpose of amending the same, so as to ' gal
a substitute out of the revenues of the ego
stoners, as a provision (or the protestant mialiensiseli
corporate towns in Ireland, in lieu of the annual wawa
ceived by them under and by virtue at the Let 17 & IsCe.a,
c. 7." The hon. gentleman read a number ot lett/stem
testant and Roman catholic clerg men in Cabala!
Dublin, and various other parts of Ireland, cosameegl
this impost, and stating that the Remus catieliselep
lestir
population would never be reconciled to the plyeadt
in any form. He felt it incumbent upon him te me%
matter upon the consideration of the house, as end
aware of the opposition of the Roman catholic el
sechicti
the great MIS of the Irish population to the ter, el
that her blejesty's government were deternisedig 0
tertere with it, he it ma who had first suggeited eimi
mint of the Church Temporalities Act, by se
'tante oat of the revenues of the semi
goners as a provision for ministers' money. dad Item
source of gratification to him that the select comiten
pointed by the house to inquire into the 'object tato
roborated his views. From the commencement thistnn
obnoxious in Ireland. It was passed in cons•queow offs
partiality of Charles 11., and alto;tether reguissf
the religious opinions of the people of that couty. S
Rev. Mr. Hellas:is, whose letter was reed to theism,.
a protestant clerzyman of the greatest respectability, eis
recommended the abolition of the tar. In Jeep Nit till
gentleman, the letters read represented that the dna
of collecting it were so great, that in many intestate
not paid at all, and could not be enforced. Solna
testimony of the very men who were interested in then,
of that obnoxious tax. The protestant clergy theme*
pared to be all unanimous in recommending its Ws
while the Roman casholica-both clergy and ley
wal
tested against its continuancein any shape or fon .:
objected to transferring the liability from the ocesperst
landlord or lessor. As they alleged, if any of theelpo
to the tax were removed, it would be gine, it adee
be perpetuated ,• and that of itself they eeteetasilett!
jectionable. The grounds of their objection were
proper certainly. They objected to it as an Mies
tax, imposed for the support of a mielaro
whom they received no spiritual instructios whams .
Roman catholies of Ireland have no idea of subro'
impcsition of this tax to support in effluence a
clergy of a church from whose tenets they. &hogs
But, independent of the feelings and opinions of
catholice of Ireland, there were various griet
out of the mode in which the tax was levied
specially objectionable. By the law in Ireland
Oct, when once a house wasvalued, eventhough,
been 100 yeas. ago, that valuation continued,
pme of ministers' money, although the pruperti
Men deeneaesd to less than half the value in
Yes, even though the property might have teem
=dill tke old
a g to it. valuation continued, sad
mordin In corporate town' .
groat hardship, because the poor were most
and in Ireland it was well known that the
almost all the corporate towns were Roman e
He did not wish to trespass too much on the house
could cite hundreds of similar instances to prove tl
tics of this tax, arising out of the system of vale
collection. He would merely mention one other
to the mode of collection, and he was sure the hos
agree with him in disapproving of it. The tan cell
power to go to any poor man's house without
any tort to distrain, and without notice he edgy
poor man's effects for land than half their Mae.
were anxious to perpetuate the tax should, st
prepared to modify the valuation, and render 1
altert less objectionable. Why should not the
ther cast upon the landlords, and the -
fees, if the substitute suggested was not a
clergy of the protestant church were remittal!.
stances, scarcely any portion of the tas. sad I' ~
had not declared that it must be paid to •
burgess to his franchise, they would receive ad
He maintained that the sale of perpetuities shoed
dered as income, and if that principle was whistle',
Church Temporalities Act admitted it), it weekly
there would be an ample surplus for providial'
for ministers' money. Every encouragement !e•
to the tenant to purchase the perpetuity.
was this : The owlesiutical commissioners .
sum of 100,000/. of the government; they bed
and they still owed government 40,0001. Osei
for borrowing this money was to psy it one t
If government admitted that ministers' -
mice, and if they were disposed to est
their committee, they were bound at oral
sum [litre an hon. member moved
counted. Strangers were ordered to settle
found that 40 members, the required nut
and the house resumed.] lie had '
if the house consented to this re
to have the bill printed and submitted ..
the house. He begged to move, in con
mitt.. of the whole house do to-morrow
tion the subject of ministers' money in
Mr. J. O'CONNELL seconded the •
Mr. GROGAN said that the quest
self into this, that ministers' money was
statutory enactment. The truth was, th
willing to pay anything they could avoid,
vernment, to obtain a fresh tax, had or
property of the established church, the l
sanction the proposition of leaving 600 •
provision or maintenance. The committee,
of a majority of members entertaining the'
member for Cork, had made a report
boldly maintained was based on r
sophism. Some of the witnesses de
the inequalities or injustice of the tax to
cause it would render the tax less obnoniom
had arrived at a resolution that the boat
'loners were adequate to the existiog Mid
was clear that they were not adequate to
There wore grievances attending the I
which he was anxious to see rectified. -
the motion was, in his opinion, not to resort
rpmf
for
a iratteontheeed
if too rfw,
settlement tu i
ntr
ek
jonen ceguoofds
of
the , awwht ova
su Wee
thatia 0
ne
when
riff
,
deny was adopted. Under these
that the house would pause before
Lion of the hon. member for Cork. .
inseilOiStucoonhß.ensiOlytyll(dHuslNerareartediEsthi,othbihniwuoEgh.o)honiltaglyliilthrhewataktesunitpibi:scrubmw:::,..,or
of religious liberty, not argued in the pa
thmeanheethomatierghbolr.idomeld'opstlelasarhaberlivaknee.dhoittodemrheeadbeel)rdeubrreed2::b°?n Ili

,t as en Wig
r •
tidos trbelne
ea of sabwillelli
flumes endiwnll
pinions thell
'owl pima*
levied AA.
. Ireland spleen
nthoughittle
=tinned, ise
to property
e value lathe
have *ems Ilet
nued, end Ow
see town Oats
Were neat de
sun that the le
ero Boman •
on the ha" te
el to peeve 61,
patent el vale&
in one ether elo
s sure the bowel
, The tar colo
cute without We
otice he ernhl
their flier. TM'
dytuld, at all reW
ad render the or?
add not the
Ind the 0000071
ma not earl
receiving, I
he tar, receiving,
be paid 0 se:
old receive
etuitits shoath'
le was adwittell.;
it), it wealit
or •
' providiel
ragement
e
'etuity. The
winners had t,10,1
• they hadtoB4'.,
,0001. °IA",
ay it OW t 0..":,
igen' went/ Ili%
t de
cseel c*,
it once tow"
ggTed that 01,..;
to withdraw, w
red nusher_lr.
bad pc•*o-0
is motion in ,
tted te tits ' go
in conclesita.
torrel,*ll°'"
sy in Irslend:
the modal.
raestion nmplf
ney oaf ,01‘
a was chef
had 10*
th_thg'Mg."--
;rug ow
:000000 r..-
inieg WI!
port OW
odnecialettityli
b. tai be
obsoSi. 01111
t the reoul
Gdng
degas** g g
g the gcc ti tteL 1.118
gK
tot to row*
different cheese°
t when
I/
ti
a lewthet.
fa subm
wit(
o a &W
costes"
to eit ac;*d'a loth •
c. toso
it this was a
as
glop
raped" 6f 01
entice
e a it
mostoer.
won up ,
in the Pelw"""rai
knot the In ar
—an
blue-booh
id read it linos
rat oirt d c