The Express.
London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

o be found in the Mediterranean, and yet a naval force wee
,rationed there, the expense of which was greater than the
pronto of the manufactures and the whole amount of the
heights of the British ships engaged in trade, put together.
(~ Oh, oh. ') So much for the commercial side of the ques-
tion. With respect to the political reasons advanced for
maintaining the naval forces, the house wan constantly told
that it was indispensable for England to place herself upon a
level with all other foreign powers, in so far as her navy was
concerned. Now, the only powers that England could
regard as being on the same level with herself in
a naval point of view were France and America,
and in adverting to this subject he must express his regret
at the tone of the speech made by the right hon. baronet the
member fur Ripon. lie had examined a tile of the Moniteur,
in order to ascertain what had been said in the French
Chamber retpt cting the British navy. It might be all very
well for members of that house to talk complacently of the
nasal supremacy of Great Britain, but was it not to be en-
pected that in the teeth of such language France and Ame-
rica should also put forward their claims to be ranked as
high as England ? In the reports of the speeches contained
in the Moniteur of 1416, on the subject of the proposed in-
crease of the French navy, when the report of the committee
appointed to examine into the question was brought
before the chamber, the minister lad 'treacly augmented
the original estimate', and even that augmentatien did not
equal the demands of the deputies, and 93,000,000 francs
was added to the estimate. What were the arguments
urged is defense of this augmentation ?—Monsieur 'Titters,
in hie speech on the occasion, deliran d on the 15th of April,
1846, said:
We pay Eaglets] the compliment of thinking of her, and her only,
when we disease the question of our nays • we de not trouble our-
*cleat about the fleets which sail out of Y Amte or Venice ; we think
only of the chips which leave Plymouth or Portsmouth. Now, what
are the naval forces of England t It la generally said that, when she
has put forth her greats-t strength, they have amounted to 100 ves-
sels of the line. if you examine the facts you will end that she has
never had 100 vessels out of port ; she has had but 60. But on a
future occasion I think she would have more-pa rhape 100. •• • •
When isms speak of 36 ships in the face of e 0 or 100 it seems to me •
farce. It is true the minister has raised the proportion tool ; but
even he can hardly be serious. • • • • 10 he had said France will
aim at having 60 ships, I should have understood him. I think that,
with 60 vessels against a nation with 50 or 100, but with a touch
larger space to cover, it would be potable for us to maintda an
honourable struggle.
One feature of the debate from which he quoted was, that
even the most exalted of the French orators never assumed
for one moment that France could pretend to be able to pat
herself upon an equality with England in so far as her naval
power was conceraed. To demonstrate this, he would quote
the observation• made by soother of the deputies on the
same nay that M. Thiers hid made his speech, namely the
13th of April, 1846. The speaker was Monsieur Ducoe,
who said :
England, which we may he permitted Vi view, if not as a model, at
least as a guide, in spite of the 112 vessels of war of Item 70 to 120
gum which she keeps afloat, in spite of the immense development
which she has given to her steam navy, England still continues to
construct more vessels of the largest dimensions. At this moment
she hoe spun the stocks 13 ships of from to to 120 guns, beside. a
cowiderable number of frigate calculated to carry a powerful artil-
lery. • • • God forbid, gentlemen, that I should so far !Wow
myself to be led away as to demand from Prance the sturifices of men
and mows neeemary for the creation of a fleet equal in tome to that
of England. I know that we are not like Greet Britain, exclusively
a maritime power; but I think l act within the limits of a wise
?clic,/ in begging the chamber not to allow itself to be carried away
ts which, however pleasing, may be deceptive, and are as
st7irrd°lre very far distant. I entreat it not to reduce the number of
our vessels whilst England preserve hers, and even augments the
number.
And the same sentiments were expressed by Mon:.
Bernoux, who, on the pin of the committee, in opposition
to the increase of the armsments, said :
In the great lottery of force and of cli ince, on which side will the
advantige reel?-On the side of the moot numerous. Now, can we
pretend to establish a navy as numerous as that of England'. If
to.niorr,m, we boil 100 vessels, the day alter, England would
have 200.
Mons. de Lamartine also spoke during the debate, and he
would read an extract from the report contained in the
Monitour of that distinguished person's speech :
England has not leas than 700 vessels of war, with which she could
cover the two oceans, at the command of her admiralty. Everybody
knows that as respects those steamers, with which we think ourselves
sufficiently armed in adding 39 to our 72, England has 900 merchant
steam-boats which she could, in ewe of war, arm and let loose upon
the ocean. • • • I confess that today for the fleet time in my
life 1 hese thought with susceptibility, I had almost mid with tee-
lousy, of England. Yes, at the moment when, after three days' de-
bate, we are coming to this great vote, I say to myeelf, and I say to
my colleagues, it is propeeel to diminish the budget of the navy, that
budget which in all mew has been deemed to belong to the very
tature and des'inies of France-it is proposed not merely to weaken,
but to paralyse the only arm with which we might perhaps one day
have to encounter England upon the ocean.
The hon. gentleman the member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward)
would perhaps recollect, that a few years ago the admiralty
had given orders to cut down some line-of-battle ships, in
order to convert them into coast-guard ships. In a report
which was made on this subject by the Baron Charles [lupin,
he (Mr. Cobden) found the following observation addr. seed •
by that gentleman to the French Chamber of Peers on the
15th of June, 1846. After giving a detailed account of a
plan determined upon by the British government for Can.
vcrting four line-4-battle ships and four frigates int•i steam.
ships carrying 312 guns and bombe of th-i largest calibre.
the baron concluded with the following observations :
It we compare this destructive force with the most formidable Mit,
testes ever employed by armies on land to horn fortified towns or
hatter down Wahiawa, we shall know what to think of an armament
got up under the inoffensive and defensivedesignetion of Meant coast-
guard meet.. leis for France an iothepresable necessity to complete
an armament of the same kind and of equal form, so that we may
have nothing to fear for the future, should it eo happen that we
have • misunderstanding with England.

He would now come to a part of the question more imme-
diately interesting to the house. On the 26th of February,
1847, the hon. member for Sheffield brought the naval esti
mates under the consn!eratiou of the house. Ind, after quot-
ing from the report of the Minister of Marine in France,
made in 1546, recommending the builu dig of new ships,
he said :
The great object of this increased expenditure was, that France
might increase the number of her shipss from i 159, whist, they were
in 1016, to 390, which was what 'bey intended to be. Now, he found
no fault with France for these things. France did what she thought
right and necessary for the maintenance of her position. idle tut us,
in many respects, a aoble example. He admired the wise and syste-
matic liberality with which her great naval works had been carried
on from year to year till she had compensated herself for the great
natural dieidsantages under which she laboured along the whole coast
of the Channel.
He then went into particulars of the magnificent works
going on at Dunkirk, Havre, Cala;s,lice.,descritied the dock-
yard at Chernourg containing 231 acres and 16 building
slips. and quoted the case of Brest, whose smithy centaiiiid
127 fires, whilst that at Portsmouth had only 48. The hen.
member wound up his statement by stating
Thew facts, it appeared to him, ought to be alevion to os. They
imposed a very heavy responsibility on those who were in power in
this country. It behoved them to take care, by the proper develop-
ment of our resources in times of peace, to prevent the balance of
power being changed in time of war.
(Hear, hear.) Now if any proof were wanting that England
had led the way step by step to the enormous augmentation
et the naval forces of France, it would be found in the fact
that the English government had subsidised the ship-
builders in order to get them to construct steamers fur the
ostensible purpose of forming a line of communication with
America, and these vessels were to be constructed upon such
plans and scale as to enable the government to take them
and convert them into war steamers in the event of a war.
(" Uh " and " hear.") He had the statement of the hon.
member for Sheffield as a gusrantee of the assertion which he
made. The steamers employed on Cunard's line, and those
also engaged in the transmission of the West India mails
were all of them coastrueted upon the principles
laid down by the honourable member in his for-
mer statement, and since that plan had been adopted by
England, France had followed it, and the President of the
United States of America had done the same thing, by ad-
vancing the gum of 200,000 dollars for the purpose of con-
structing steam war packets. If the matter wan not so
serious in itself, there was enough in what he had stated to
make him laugh at the imbecility of foreign nations. He
Mild not bat draw the conclusion, from all the facts he had
stated, that there was no desire in Hoch quarters to diminish
the war expenditure of the nation. (" Oh," and " Hear.")
The allusion made by the hon. member for Sheffield to
America, was not a fortunate one. The United States had
existed as an independent power for the period of 67 years,
and during that time they had been engaged for four years
in a war. The Amencan naval estimates is 184.5 were
1,200,0001., or 6,000,000 dollars—one-half or two-thirds
of the naval estimates of Great Britain. What was the
wheie amount of the estituatee of the American cabinet
during the years in which tiley were engaged in war 7—only
11,000,0001., and this sum included the military and naval
expenditure, the salary of the President, and the allow-
ances made to all the foreign ambassadors, as well as every
other charge. The whole did nut amount to twothirde of
the ton of the establishment and civil list of Great Britain
during a time of profound peace. The noble lord the mem-
ber for Stafferdshire had taunted him (Mr. Cobden) with
some ob.ervaions which had fallen from him on a former
occasion iu ani-ther place. lle must admit that be had been
correctly reported on the cecasion referred to. lie did not
mean to be offeaaive to any persons when he said thatTaletts
was a eltulkirg hole far the navy, and the noble lord would
understand that this observation was exclusively meant for
the nautical, But he must state that he had visited Malta

at two different periods of the year, in March and in Novem-
ber, and he had on both occasions observed a vast assem-
blage of ships and sailors, without, at the same time, observ-
ing any correspondeat advantage which they conferred. He
had been told that drunkenness prevailed amongst the sailors.
lie had himself seen the Jack Tars galloping round the
island upon uses. (Laughter.) The hon. and gallant mem-
ber for Tarnworth complained that he had misrepresented
these crews and their ()Seers, because he had stated that
there was a greater amount of idleness and demoralisation
exhibited on board ships of war than could be seen in the
same space anywhere else on the face of the earth. He re-
peated his assertion, and contended that you could not have
NO or 1,000 men on board a 120-gun ship for any length of
time without their becoming demoralised and idle. (Hear,
hear.) Suppose you had a factory, with 1,000 hands coming
in every morning and going away in the evening, without a
wheel being turned or a spindle set in motion, how
long would they remain without becoming demoralised ?
The occupation of our fleets in the Meditm rano= is really
this. They lay up in ordinary in winter, and summer they 1
welt on an excursion round Sicily, sometimes as far as
Athens, and sometimes to Smyrna, coming back after a cruise
of six months to Valetta to lay up. The officers went to
the clubs, or on leave to Sicily, while the lieutenants and
men left on board were put to their wits' end to find some-
thing to do. They hauled up the sails, then pulled them
down, and that with scrubbing the decks formed the ordinsly.
routine of Mediterranean duty. (Hear, hear.) He bogged
hon. members who were discontented with his statement,,
not to lose their time taunting him, but to con-
tradict his facts. Let them disprove what he said,
and to enable them to do so, let them look to
the. navy list, and see where the ships wen stationed in
"""goheri JlOOllll7, and February, and where in May,
June, and
July. Now, with regard to the forte in the
Tagus, the right hon. baronet the member for Ripon had de-
kod.l it by ••••`4.--.., si_ Nelson's opinion as to the eligibility of
the stttion.)4. was willing to take that opinion for what is