The Express.
London, England, 1848-07-08 00:00:00

CI 1 0
O 18 8
O It 0
O 5 3

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ing to 'deficit, he felt it necessary to. examine the right
hon. Mtleusen's explanation. The right hon. gentleman
said tUt there would be a saving on the estimates, which,
combined with the militia vote, would be equal to 685,0001.
Then M spoke of an improvement in the revenue. He (Mr.
Oladstme) was at • less to reconcile that with thy statement
of the revenue published yesterday ; but supposing tee right
hon. gentlemen to he cerreet in both respects, as to the demi-
nimedexpenele ure and increased revenue, it would appear that
his staement in February. But with regard tothe.nezt item,
,0001. better tbanhe calculated upon when he made
he ware,ooo
that U the credit side of the account they were merely taking
the 6t 0,
from the appropriation in aid—in piecing
from ere r. venue of the next year to fill up the deficiency of
this. (Hear, hear.) It was • mere financial expedient,
and i: would be a fallacy to put it forth to the country as •
saving to that amount. This half million would be more
than covered by the loss on the sugar duties and the vote far
navy, new, which he supposed would be made as usual, and
add 3:10,000e to the estimates. Looking the question fairly
in tie, face there was a deficiency of 1,600,0001. on the year's
reeerue. And it eras not as though this was the first deficiency.
Then was a fatal tendency in one deficiency to create another;
and I the home refugee to make up the deficiency in one
year. it was always more reluctant to make it up in the next.
Lastyear they had to raise a loan in time of peace. The eo-
verment had appealed in justification to extraordinary eel-
cumeances, and they promised in the next rear to equalise
the expenditure and income so as to make provision for the
repel absorption and payment of the loan. Of this, how-
ever, they had heard nothing this year, while there wee se-
ethes and a large deficiency in the accounts. And when it
was noel:wed to meet that deficiency by an increased income
tax the holm objected, not because it del not desire to
equffise the income and expenditure of the country, but be.
thdouted there a •fa considerati on
came, as the ri tht hon. member for Portsmouth had said,
the part of thewhether governmehntd tobeen ir
what was due toon the
principles of public ecowimy, and because they had
not confidence in the estimates brought forward.
'film he believed was the reason why the proposal of mini-
sten had be en dceli. cd. Az the circumstances of the last
yeas were extraordinary there was the more reason why they
shosld look with diligence and jealousy on the state of affairs
nom If having arrived aan ordinary year they allowed a
deficiency to pees, what prospect had they for the future ?
(Hear, hear.) What right had they to exeect mere courage
freer the government 6r the house in another section ? Sup-
poeng this depression in trade should continue, and who
Gould say it would not. what would be the consequence ?
The last five months showed no improvement as compared
with the corresponding period of tee two previous years.
The exports of the first five months of 1846 were 20 1:90,0001 ;
of the core epondeig five monthsot 1847 they were ee,300,0001,
end of the first five months of the present year they were
17,946,0001. This did net show that we war re progressing.
He contended that we were beund to look our financial dif-
ficulties in the face and provide for them, and even if mote
provision were made then necessary no evil would be dine;
but if, calculeting on improvement next year, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer allowed the deficiency to remain, and
it should ter-. out that the circumstances of 1849 were worm
than those of 1818, he would have but too plausible an argu-
ment for tolerating a still further deficiency. He contended
that neither the government nor the house would have die-
charged its duty to the country if it allowed the session to
close without taking effecetal measures to equalise the in-
come and expenditure. (fleer, he sr.) It was for these res.
sons he thought it necessary to protest &debut voting away
the large sums of public muney which the plan of the
Chanceliur of the Exchequer would undeubtedly draw
from the revenue during the first year of its operation
until they had a distinct pledge that ministers
did intend to propose measures for squalling the in-
come and expenditure of the year. It was an excellent
feature in the plan of his hon. friend that it did not tamper
with the revenue at a period of deficiency, and that it did
net propose to vote away money every farthing of which
was already pledged to the expenditure of the country. In
justice to the West ladia body some modification of the go-
vernment plan was necessary; and if they did not ge farther
than they had done in this respect, though be objected to
increase the differential duty, he should feel bound to go
with his hon. friend in the ulterior stapes of his measure;
but, however that might be, he thought they were asserting
by this MC,111,4f, of his hon. friend • financial principle of
the highest imp...fleece, both to the present and future wel-
fare of the coolers', and therefore he should vote with him.
Ate. LABOUCIIEHE, though he did rot c implain of the
time at which the right hon. gentleman had chosen to question
the fiaancial policy of the government, he did complain of the
manner he had assumed. When ho remembered that the
right hon. gentleman was one of an administration who in-
troduced a measure relative to the timber duties--dealing
with that article of consumption and taxation in precisely the
same manner as the present government proposition did with
sugar, he must say he thought the right hon. gentleman had
a very short memory to attach that charge to the government
measure respecting the sugar duties. But there was an-
other statement of the right hon. gentleman that ho had
heard with still mote areonishment—narnely, that they were
considering the finances of an ordinary year in the history
of this country. Had it been an °rehears, year, looking to
the manner in which the country hail, during that time,
borne up against the pressure of the most extraordi-
nary difficulties, Hs conviction was, we should already
hove been an the spring-tide of returning( prosperity I,
of the most durable character. When he looked to the
manner in whick the country had supported the deprivation j
I of the European markets, so fatal to the industry of our ,
manufacturing districts—the exports having considerably
fall, n off—and when he considered how the home con-
sumption or the internal trade of the country hail kept up,
he thought no country ever exhibited such inexhaustible
resources, or so many of the elements of commercial great-
less. The right hon. gentleman had adverted to returns
laid on the table from the Board of Trade, of the con-
sumption of the country during the last month, which, com-
pared with the corn eponding month of last year, showed a
failing off in the consumption of sugar. But there were
other articles of consumption besides sugar which exhibited
the powers of consumption of the country ; and which ex-
hibited no declension therein. For instance, there was the
article of tea, the consumption of which, so far from falling
off, had iucreaaed. In the month ending the sth of June,
1847, the consumption was 3,690,000165., while in the Cor-
responding month of the present year it was 4,109,000 lbs.
The statement of the right hon. gentleman on the finances of
the country he would not now follow in detail, as it was desira-
ble to bring thin debate, already of such lung contir,uance, to a
close. He must say he di cidedly preferred the plan of the
government to that comprised in the amendment of the hon.
member for Leominster. The alteration of those duties a!
fected in a conceit, raids degre e the interests of both planter
and consumer, which he conceived to be identified ; for it
was to the increased consumption of sugar in this country
alone that the West Indian plant r could, in the long run,
look as the best means of supporting his position and itnerest
as a RIOT producer. He could not agreewith the right hon.
gentlemen that the difference of price between 14s. and 10s.
would be immaterial in its effecta upon the consumption of
this country ; nor could he agree with him in his objection
to the plan of producing a diminution in price, not by
a sudden fall, but by a dropping scale. In making
those alterations, there was only a choice between
two difliculties—either you must have • dropping scale,
or a male terminating in what he might call a preci-
pice ; and therefore he believed that the adoption of the
amendment, being a measure of an abrupt kind, would be
fraught with much more evil than a dropping scale. The
sudden alteration of duty would, previous to its coming into
operation, art as a barrier to check large quantities of sugar
from coming into the market; while, after it came into
orration, it would let in an influx of the article like an
avalanche upon the market; which, he need not say, would'
he a great evil. He repeated, then, that he believed the
government measure was more advantageous than the
amendment would prove to he, both to the consumer and
the West Intlien planter. But the hon. member (Mr.
lonely) did not proles* to put forward his amend.
ment very much on the ground of advantage to the planter.
There remained, however, another great interest to be cons&
dered—namely, that of the revenue. He was not sanguine
enough to believe that, spread over a period of years, and
introduced gradually as it would be by the plan of the
government, the increase of consumption would be such In
to make up to the revenue any Ines which might arise from i
the diff, rence of the two plane. Every one conversant with
the subject must be aware how very sensitive to diminution
of price was the article of auger. The noble member for
King's Lynn, who had laboured with great ability and zeal
upon this subj ct had collected a list of prices for a series
of , ears, by which they were able to ace the operation of
prices upon the consumption of sugar donor the last 25
years. From that list it could he at once seen how strongly
any fall of price affected the consumption of sugar. But
something even beyond that could be seen from those lists ;
and that was the great tendency, iudepeudently of any
diminution of price, which existed in this country to in-
crease the coesump•ion of sugar; for in some cases, even
where there had heels no diminution of price at all, a com-
parison of one year with the preceding would show an in-
crease of col ..iii: Oen. For instance, in 1837, there was a
fall of GS. 3.1 in the price, and an increase iu consumption
of '22,000 ten+ in round numbers. In 1839 there
was a rise of ss. Od, in the price, ar.d the quer.-
tity consumed was diminished by 5,900 tens. Again,
in the }ear 1840, there was a rise of 10A. 41. In the price,
and a diminution in the consumption of 11,800 tons. In
1811 there was a faller Rs Bd. iu the price and an increase
in the consumption of 23,000 tons. It. 184.5 there was a fall
in the price of Ils. 9d., and an increase in the consumption
of 38,000 tons ; while in 1846 there eras no change in the
price, and yet there was an increase in the consumption of
not less than 17,000 tons. He thought it was very plain
that there was • great disposition in this country to increase
the consumption of sugar. It was very clear, then, that the
plan of the hon. gentleman, though it might nut make up
to the revenue at once the exact Sores which it might lose
in consequence of the alteration, yet that it would, in can-
sequence of the great increase of consumption, in the long
Irun cause the revenue no great loss; and he considered
upon all thoee grounds that the asure was founded
upon a just and sound principle.me It did nut, as
the right honourable gentleman had said, wildly tamper
with the finances of the country; and he considered tat
the view ,if his right honourable friend (the Chancellor
of the Exceequer) on the financial aspect of the measure
was the just and the true one. There was another paint to
which he wished to advert. The right hon. gentleman had
reproached them that consideraele quantities of foreign
surer bad found their way into our markets, at • rate of duly
which was rot intended by the government. Such mistakes
as those were rather unfortunate ; and certainly it was de-
sirable that they should not occur in our commercial legisla-
tion. But, in the present case, it was not their fault if any
inadvertence of that kind took place, because, when they
sought to have the debate closed, in order to have the pre-
sent measure pasted in time, an hon. member connected
with the West Indian intgreet—the hon. member for
Leominster—rese and moved the adjournment of the
debate, and was supported by the noble member
for King' Lynn, who took a great interest in

West Indian affairs, and by the right hon. gentleman
the member for the Universit materxford himself
very a
therefore any reproach in thiscame with • very bad
grace from that quarter.
Mr. CAYLEY felt bound to support the proposition of I
the honourable member for Leominster. They
knew how committees of that Louse were packed, but in
spite of the packing they saw how the committee, thanks
to the energy of his noble friend the member for Lynn,
bad reported. They might condemn the West Indian
colonies, but they would eventually find that they wer • in
error in thus lendemning that body. The rule of the poli-
tical economists 'armee to be the old quotation : " Get money—
honestly, it you can—but, at all events, get money."
He contended that wherever there was a failure there ouaht
to be a reaction. The hen. member fur the West ft ding
(Mr. Cobden) had stated that his constituents (at least, so he
had undersmod the hon. member) preferred cheapness to hu-
manity. From that smtement he (Mr. Cayley) differed, and
was confident that if the question '• as properly explained to
them they would cast away cheapness in order to get rid of
slavery. They thought that freedom was better than free
trade, and that humanity, justice, equity, and the
maintenance of good faith were preferable to cheapness of
any commodity (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CARDWELL said the right hon. gentleman, the
President of the Board of Trade, before he had sat down,
after addressing the house, memo,' to have recovered from
the cloud of dissatisfaction which he had manifested at the
commencement of his speech, and had arrived at that equable
and general state of mind which was his wont. He (Mr
Cardwell) thought the cloud had originated is the pained
analysis of the financial state of the country, which had
been made by his right hon. friend the member for the
University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), and the recovery had
arisen from the answer the right hon. gentleman opposite
(Mr. Labouchere) had been enabled to give on two points.
viz., that in relation to the amount of the delivery of
sugars at the lower rate of duly, and the condition
of the revenue as bearing upon the question of the sugar
duties. The right hon. gentleman had stated that the oar
take which had arisen was not the fault of the government,
far that they had taken care to apprise the house of the con-
sequences which must ensue from delay. Now, what were
the circumstances? On the 30th May the government had
plainly told the house and the country that no change
would be made in the act of 184 G, either en to the amount of
the duties or in their duration ; and on the ((Mewing day the
mail went out to theWeat Indies, conveying that intelligence.
The mutt was attributed by the right hon. gentleman to the
hon. member for Droitwieh (Sir J. Pekington); but ht it
not be forgotten that the attention of the government had
been called to the position in which the question would be
placed on the very first night upon which the house had been
invited to deceits the government proposition. And could
any man, in or out of the house, believe it possible that be-
tween the 10th Juno and the sth July the principle of the
proposition of the government—that fairly mime by the
hon. member fur Droitwieu—the amendment of the hon.
member for Manchester, and all the other amendments
Lafleur. ced to be moved in cosumittre—c.'uld be discussed
and disposed cf in that ehoreinterval ? (Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Cardwell) denied that the analysis of the financial
condition of the country which had been made by his
right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) was devoid of fairness as
ha l been alleged. His right hon. friend had contra- ted the
present year with the year of the Irish famine and of the
8,000,0001. loan, and he spoke of this as an ordinary year as
compared with those years. The rerlit hon. gentlemen
(Mr. Labouchere) had himself said that the present was
a year in which the country had shown great buoy ancy—that
but for the events which had taken plate on the continent
el Europe, this country would now have been in the spring-
tide of prosperity, and in an extraerdmary etste c! ::.tune.
But on the 18th februery, a deficiency of 2,000,000/. had
been predicted, though the events in France did not happen
until the 24th of that month. The question of the timber
duties bore no peraliel to the questi n now under considera-
tion—they were not arallel cases because his right hotel
friend (Mr. Gladstone) had contended justly tent the
government had n right to come down to the house, heeler
uo resources, but standing upon an empty treasury chest, and
take credit for • reductem in favour of the consumer, when I
they knew that in ease of a deficiency in the rev nue, the
consumer was the person upon whom the beeline of taxa-
tion to supply that deficiency must be placed. He
'therefore repeated that the descending icale proposed
by his right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) in the dude-
' in favour of Canadian timber had no parallel with the
present question. In February, the government were deh
min«i to maintain the law of lblo —a law which, he con.
tended, was more favourable to the revenue than the change
in it now proposed by her majes'y's ministers, and from
which they might have calculated upon a larger amount to
be derived from the sugar duties than would be the case
under the proposed change, and yet with the state of the
continent affecting the productive industry of the country,
the government came down and took comfort in an antici-
pated increase of revenue from the change. For this there
was no basis beyond the hopeful anticipatioca of the right
hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who supposed
that because the stocks were large, these would ae
an increased consumption. But were the stocks
large ? On the contrary, the returns made up to
the Ist of June last showed that in •11 the principal
[ports of the kingdom the stocks were pima r than they were
at the same period last year. But it had seen said that his
right bon. friend had not been clear in the announce-
ment of his remedy for the exciting state of things in relation
to the West India colonies. In the select committee it had
been agreed that, for the permanent benefit of the colo-
nies, protection was not necessary, and the bon. member for
Westbury (Mr. Wilson) had proposed resolutions to the
effect that the remedy ought to be applied directly to the
planters themselves in some other shape than in that of pro-
tective duties. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding this, the
plan of the government off"red the planter no other remedy
but protection. Ilia right hon. friend had pointed to other
remedies, but their application was matter of great diffi-
culty, owing to the complication of interets. They in-
volved the state of West India property, the state of the
negm or coloured population, and they involved besides the
whole question of immigration from the coast of Africa, as
well as that of loans or grants of peblic money for the im-
provement of estates; and lastly, they involved the whole
question of the slave trade. It was impossible for his right
hon. friend to bring forward • scheme without
dealing with all these various points, and being
out of office it would have been rash temerity
en the part of his right hon. friend to have under-
taken that duty. With respect to the proposition brought
forward by the hon. member for Leominster (Mr. Barkly),
it did not differ in its operation for the first year from the
plan brought forward by her Majesty's government, but it
would not affect the public revenue at a time when the reve •
nue could not afford to be affected, and, further, it was not
oven to the objection of a continual recurrence to a descend-
ing scale. Before he sat down he could not avoid referring
to one piece of evidence adduced before the slave-trade com-
mittee now sitting,by Mr. Moore, the chairmen of the Liver-
pool Brazilian Association. He (Mr. Cardwell) had
asked Mr. Moore this qn. stion—. Can you tell
the committee whether the Brazilian merchants in
this country expected so full a measure of free
trade in sugar as was afforded by the act of 1840 ?" The
answer was, " I should my certainly not." Do you know
whether their general opinion is that the measure of 1840
extended beyond the justice of the case ? Answer : At the
time the measure was brought forward I was chairman of the
Lives pool Brazilian Association, and I can state we never
sought for equality with the colonies ; on the contrary, we
always looked for some differential duties. I frequently
came to London on the subject, and we said that if Brazilian
sugar was at 17a., and West India sugar at 2.55, there
ought to be a differential duty of Ba." He (Mr. Card-
well) had pressed the examination a step further end
had asked the witness, " In your opinion was there an in-
justice done the West India colonies ?" and the answer was,
" Yes. 1 think so." Such was the evidence adduced on the
pert of the merchants engaged in the cultivation and import
of Brazilian sugars; and the other day, in attending with a
deputation upon the government, he (Mr. Cardwell) had
urged the hardships to which the counties had been exposed.
Believing that the plan proposed by the hon. member for
Leominster (Mr. Barkly) would afford the best means of
giving effect to those sentiments, he (Mr. Cardwell) should
give it his beg support. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILSON said the question before the committee
was whether it should adopt the government proposition of
13s. per cwt. on colonial sugar, or the 14s. per cwt. as
moved by the hon. member opposite (Mr. Berkly) • but in
dealing with that question, it was necessary to Like the
whole scale of duties as proposed on the one side and the
other into consideration. The plan of the hon. member
would operate beneficially for the colony (Demerara) in
which he was most interested, and which produced the
white clsyed or higher class sugars, but would sacrifice
the sugars produced in the other West India colonies, and
the effect would be to raise the price for the next year of all
sugars but Is per cwt. more than would be the case if the
government proposition received the sanction in preference
of the legislature. Taking into consideration the consumers'
interest on the one hand and the state and condition of
the revenue on the other, he was convinced the government
plan as now proposed would effect a great saving,
that
revenueby thew adoptionu b 2400 f,OO
ot
in
themid operate most beneficially for the country at
1.
ltesntosathide
govern-
ment putteep
ai
nt lit
ha
ad
first year, 480,000). in the second year, and 960,0001. for the
Mee remaining years. But what would be the effect of the
plan of the hon. member for Leominster ? Why, in the first
year it would add to the consumer a cost of 435,000/. ; in the
second year the additional charge to the consumer would be
90.5,0001.; and in the third year, while there would be a loss
to the revenue of 720,0001., there would be an increased cost
to the consumer to the extent of 1,350,0001.; and soon, until,
at the end of the six years, the re would be an addition of
2,400,0001. more upon the consumer than would be the re-
sult of the adoption of the government plan. In what posi-
tion, then, at the expiration of that time, would
the West India colonies be placed, when, without
protection, there was no increase of consumption ?
The advantage of a gradually decreasing duty was that it
produced no very marked effect at any particular time, espe-
cially if the alterations were known betereband ; and on this
ground the plan of government was infinitely preferable to
that embodied in the amendment. The mode in which re-
lief was proposed to be given to the planters, namely, by
stimulating the consumption, was the most unobjectionable
that could be devised. For years before the alteration in
1845, the consumption of sugar had been almost stationary;
in 1830, it was 202,000 tons; in 1813, 203,000 ; and in no
one year of that period had it exceeded 206,000 tons. But
after the alterations in 1845 the consumption rose at once to
244,000 tons ; in 1848, to 261,000 ,• and in 1847 (in conse-
quence of the further reductions of duty in the preceding
year), to 290,000 loos. By the amendment proposed the
duties would be kept stationary for six years, and the natural
consequence would be, to came the consumption again to
become stationary ; and how, then, could any increase of
revenue be expected ? The government plan, on the other
hand, by largely stimulating the consumption, would aug-
ment the NITRO SO such au extent as would probably Qom.

pensate for the reduction of duty The hon. ell.mb r re;
Liverpool had dwelt much on the apparent lolling off ag
3,000 tons in the consumption or sueur to May Ine, a, corn.
pared with May, 1847 ; but had he toro twit that, rater the
West India Committee had b en siting for months, lag
reductions of duty were recommei dad, refiners and design
would naturally allow their stocks to .io toe, and 'haematite
the apparent felling-off alluded W ? Ile knew, by comma.
nieations with the refiners, theme, th 4 they had scut
in this way, having their eyes fixed on the angel.
posed reduction of the sth inst. ; and he had no doubt
the quantity entered in the present math would more than
compensate for the post decline. The amount of sugar to be
received from the colonies this year was isely vtimated at
230,000 tons; the imports from the Ma ..ritius end the Sue
Indies might be expected to fall oft from 5,000 to 10,000
toes ; the whole supply would present!? equal 31.5,000 tome
being out,. 45,000 tms I. ss than tee slimes of hut year.
The hon. member for Liverpool odd teat etoces were lower
this year than last ; but tau wasi 0 eine to tee fact that the
shipments were unusuell) I rte ; both iit Bruit red Cubathere
wire large stocks yet unshipped, Ka whettoe they ems
direct to this ountry or t the coutiourital pore, they would
find their way here if th, y re nee zed. ar, hear.)
Thl hon. gentlemen opposite (Mr. Gioistoue seal Mr. Co
well) had dwelt too strongly on the question of revenue,
though the accounts of the preeeilitor day certainly showed
a deficit on the year of 2,400,0001 ; but of this, no lees a
sum than 2,200,0001 was in restaxt of the six menthe
ending in January last as compared w,th the pew
perous half year ending in January, 147. (Hear, hear.)
Comparing the last six mehtlis with the core,-
spondine fill months of 1317—a mach fairer wit of jaeging
of our present position—it would be eie n that eiawithsta.
ing the extraordinary curtailment e Bich our commerce had
suffered, and notwithstanding the ills, urbe d rendition of the
continent, the deficit was only 209,611.1/. Toe tint no
months of 1847 were a p nod of comparative presperity;
and, it the comparison was confined to the last ewerter and
the corresponding quarter of Itsl7, the amount of deficient,
bills amounted may to 35.0001. (near.)) Toe propultion
of the hon, member fur Leomineter (Mr. Barkley, while
raising the price of all sugar, was alai utecti ineele on the
ground of
itagivieg an un.air advanrege to certain celonie;
inasmuch as it only imposed a duty of 14.. on colonial mem
covados tend white-clayed sugars, and would they by istiet
hardship on the r liners of this. country, who pdd a date,/
114. for the raw material which they wrought up.
Mr. BA LY de claimed any niter:AM motive Mistaking
the distinction allude." to ; ar.d
Mr. WILtiON said he had not meant to impute any suck
motive.
Sa G. CLERK said he should support the amendment.
The must importeut port of the pia.. of the hon. te. Door
fur Leominster was the omiesion of the do ineuve they on
white clayed sugar. In 1847 only 30,000 ewt. had paid the
high duty of white-clayed, of which 11 000 wee (mein and
16,000 was East ladle sugar. This nistinction then alferded
no benefit to the West Indian coemies. .fhe rivet hoe.
gentleinun the Chancellor of the Exehequ. I' a omitted that
he would lose 210,000/. at firs,, it th. pl.n of tee government
were adopted. but he expected that it ',route b, suede up to
that amount by the inert ried c •nsumpi eat of 'toter. did
not think that expecation was Likely to he reel Lee, bee mein
the five months ending the 6th of J unelvd, the consumption of
sugar had fallen off 1.000 tons as compared with the quan-
tity consumed is. the corresponding five month • of 1817. And
this falling off had taken p.ace, nob met' the strange price
fer the five months of the year 1848 wan only 21.. wnilst the
average price of the five menthe of 1847 we- :114 He slid sot
think this *hewed that there was buy ti ieleeey to increase
the consumptiou of the sugars. The principal differtece be-
tween the plan of the governraor. vet that of hie hon. friend
was, that has hone friend proposed t retain the differential
duty at the same amount for six peat. 11. m. gentlemen
opposite said that the drooping ee ele woule afford time to
the West India planters to prepare for the cormetie
tion with the foreign growers. That argument surpriwd
him as coming from the author* of tee Act tit
The drooping scale had this disadvantage, that it produced
irregularity in the trade, because ruercuants always regu-
lated their transactions accurdius to the gradual tall. In this
respect he thought the plan of the tom. gentleman we
superior to teat of the goy. raiment. But whir appeared to
him to be the great advantage of the plan of the hon. gentle-
man was, that it would nut diminish tee rev/ nue. Ginn
the right hen. gentl. man the Chancellor of the Exchequer
credit for the improved state of the finances, there would be
still, according to his statement, a deficiency ir 1,500,0001.,
and in such circumstances he slid not think it would be wise
to give up 240,0001. He admitted, wee „ever the state of the
revenue could afford it, that ne tax c .old be reduced
with so much advantage to the great was+ of the people
as the tax on sugar, but until the state of the revenue had
greatly improved they should not du any thee; that wetikt
still further diminish it. The right hen. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer told :hem that he would get
350,0001. beyond what be expected trot the malt duty. It
should be recollected however that the superior quality
of last year's malt would occasion less sugar to be
used in brewing. (Hear.) Then the right bon. gentleman
said that he expected to save 300,000/. on the army,
navy mei ordnance estimates, without at all (drain-
ishing the efficiency of thoot servic e. At the bed
he believed that a large proportioe of this alleged
reduction would be merely a pes.ponercent of accounts until
next year, but how stood the actual fact ? Why, thus : that
in the put financial year" the government had expended on
the naval service 400,0001. beyond the vote a hich they had
obtained under this head, which 400.0001. they must conse-
quently set aeainst the 300.0001 , leavtne adeftC.t of 100,0001.
in this Item instead of a surplus of 300,000/. Nothing meld
be more mischievous than the myititie own of expenditure
and income accounts which the goy. raiment was to, made
in the habit of attempting. lie should ire his coeditl sap
port to the amendment
Mr. C. BRUCE should give his vote for the amendment
of his hon. friend.
Mr. BAILLIE said that a duty pat on an article of con-
sumption did not always impoie a fresh burden on the people
who consumed the article e i treated. He felt this defficutly
with respect to the amendmentof his bin. friend, that if he
voted for it he could not bring forward the amendment of
which he had given notice. (Diside, divide.)
Mr. GODSON said that the choice which it was for the
committee to make at present, wes het viten the plan of the
government and the prop-al of the hon. member fer Leo.
minster. In his opinion the plan et tee government was pre-
ferable.
Mr. MOWATT, who was interrupted by loud cries of
" question," " divide, 'expreved his re.ret that government
had departed from the principle they had themselves laid
down in 1848. (lieu, bear.) lie bed no faith in it as a
measure of relief to the planter., neither did he approve el
the amendment of the hon. member for Leominster. Under
these circumstances he had made up hie mind to take no
part in the division ore way or the other. (Laughter.)
Lard G. BENTINCK =veil the adjournment of the
debate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the home had lately ap-
pointed a committee to consider upon the best mesas of ex-
pediting the public business. (" Hear," and laughter.) He
could have no hope of the recommendations 01 that commit-
tee proving effectual, unless the house, having entered upon
a discussion, made a determination to go on at once to i s eon-
, elusion. They were then sitting on the 7th July, in coed-
nnence of a debate which had begun on the 10th Jane.
He relit), could not consent tothe adjournoteet of the debate
lentil the house had testified its opinion by a division.
Mr. GOULBURN was understood t 6 suggest the pro-
priety of accediug to the wiehi a of the cable lord.
'rue commitee divided—For adjournment BO
Against
On our return to the gallery,
Lord J. RUSSELL was consenting to the adjournment
al
the debate until Monday, expressing e hope that the house
would then go into committee of supply.
Mr. HENLEY was glad the ilebe.e was djoumed, for it
was probable the noble lord who moved the adjournment
would have spoken two or three hours. (Omen and
laughter.)
Col. SIBTHORP said if they were to take votes on es-
count to-night they might overdraw.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD should feel it his duty to object be
g s into committee of supply at that hour.
Lord J. RUSSELL asked was it really intended to delay
the business of the country in this way ?
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he bad a notice of motion on
the paper to be brought on on going into committee of inv•
ply, and he objected to proceed at that h
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would sec, on Monday on
*hat day he would go into a cemmitue of supply again, and
then the hon. member could bring forward his mottos.
Mr. STUART thought the object:on to go into supply was
most unreasonable and unfair, but not near so unfair and un-
reasonable as the conduct of the goy, raiment in trying. to
prevent the noels lord the =rah. r ter Lynn from addrainag
the house. (Much groaning, and cries of " Oh.")
Lord J. RUSSELL dented that he had endeavoured to
prevent the noble lord from speaking.
Mr. STUART essayed to op ak again ; but his nice was
drowned amid groans and cries of " Oh."
The Cll4tlllll.ex then put the queetion that he do
report progress, and ask leave to sit again, which was agreed
to; and he then left the chair.
SUPPLY.

The house having resumed,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
the Speaker do leave the chair, in order to go into eommittee
of supply, whereupon
Capt. BOLDEItO said the Chancellor of the Etcha
quer had stated the other night that certain reductions
might be made In the oelnance and other • adulates. He
wished to have &detailed account ~f those proposed reductioes,
showing their character, amount, and the reasons for the
reduction. He should also like to know when the emir
army aad ordnance cstimatis were to be brought fortysms
and the order in which they would be submoted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the votes of the present session had been taken on account.
Until the committee on the army, navy, and ordnance ((in-
mates had made their report, the votes would continue to
be taken in the same way.
Cap`. BOLDER() said his question had not been answered,
whereupon
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that when the estimates were
brought forward, he would state the amount of the reduc-
tions to be made, and, if flies e.ary, print the particulars.
As to the " reasons " for these re,outous, it was more usual
fur this minister to state them than for the government to
put them on paper.
The SPEAKER. then put the question, when
Mr. KEOGH objected to going on, in consequence of
having a motion on the paper.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would state on Monday when
the hon. member would have an opportunity of bringing
forward his motion.
Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to call attention to the fact
that the committee up stairs would not be able to report
upon the army and ordnance carotid, a this year.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he SiOttiCl consider that point.
The 11911110 then went tato committee of supply, when

- - .
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•nn. member fat
rent falling off ef
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for months, and
liners and dealer,
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new, by comma-
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nn the amid.
he had no doubt
would more theta
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si•ly estimated at
hies Rod the But
6,000 to 10,000
lual 345,000 tone.
Lppi. of lost year.
locks were lower
the fact that the
sit mini Cuba there
.hetler they came
porn. they would
d. (liar, hear.)
ne
aiid Mr. Car‘
rotten 0i revenue.
certainly showed
t at this, no lea a
tho sir months
with the pros.
7. (Hear, hear.)
with the corn.
rr cosec of judging
at. tiotwithlllan&
.or commerce hail
ition of the
▪ Tin tint six
awe prosperity .-
e last quarter ahQ
mint of deficiency
Tne proposition
• Darkly), while
jectianao on the
0 certain colonies,
on colonial cue.
d titer by inflict a
Rho p dti a duty of
ant up.