The Express.
London, England, 1848-05-16 00:00:00

et the injurious effects produced by the want of capacity and
knowledge In the masters, and the consequent absence of
diselpliae. (Hear.) These evils were very mush the growth
of the system of protection, by preventing the parties from
ezertiog themselves in other ways ; and the usual result of
a little stimulus arising from competition would soon be
visible in the Improved character of the masters. (Hear,
hear.) Other questions connected with the merchant navy
of thin country deserved attention ; two of thou, relating to
light dues, and to the regulation of the Merchant Seamen's
Fund, would be submitted to the house in the course of the
session. There were other not less important measures
which ho had no hope of being
c able to bring forward in the
present session ; but he hoped no lung time would elapse be-
fore parliament would eal with them advantageously;
amongst them were the pilotage question, and any means
that might be adopted for ensuring better and more com-
petent instruction for ship-masters. Of one thing he was
quite certain, that the maintenance of the present restric-
tions in their integrity—which too many connected with the
merchant navy believed to be beneficial to them—would
avail nothing for the remedy of the evils he had described ;
for they only narrowed and confined the general commerce
of the country, on which its navigation must depend. To
suppose that anything which systematically and in the long
run crippled acid narrowed the commerce and manufactures
of the country could be favourable to its navigation was in
reality an idle vision. (Hear, beer.) This class of the com-
munity, as well as every other, would find their true inte-
rest, in the long run, in being allowed to compete on unre-
stricted terms with the other countries of the world, to fet-
ter themselves with as few restrictions and impediments as
possible, and above all, not to encumber themselves with a
system of protection which did them no good, and which
was deeply injurious to the rest of the community. (Hear,
hear.) He bad now gone through this great subject very
imperfectly, and he humbly and respectfully recemmended
his proposals to the delibi rate and impartial consideration of
parliament. If adopted, he believed the it effect would be
greatly beneficial to the country at large, and to no
interest more an than to that which he valued as
much as any man—the commercial prosperity and the mari-
time greatness of the nation. These alterations, instead of
discontenting our chemists, exciting the jealous rivalry of
foreign nations, crippling trade, and contracting manufac-
tures, would give us freedom, good-will, prosperity, and
peace. ( Hear.) And they should be placing the prosperity
of England upon the safest as well as the noblest basis, if
they ceuel connect it, an he believed this measure would do,
erten the general interests, the extended commerce, the con-
tinued peace, and the advancement acid prosperity of the en-
tire civilised world. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ELLIOTT was understood to ask whether that regu-
lation would be repealed which required ships to carry fire
men for every 100 tons of registered tonnage ?
Mr. LABOUCH ERE said the present state of the law
was this: provided the proportion of three-fourths English
to one-fourth foreign seamen was maintained, they might
carry en many or as few seamen with regard to the tonnage as
they pleased. It was only when that proportion was violated,
and more then one-fourth of foreign seamen were employed,
that the regulation as to the propertien of English seamen to
the tonnage came into play ; but practically, he understeod,
it had no effect.
Mr. FORSTER said he had expected that the right hon.
gentleman would have taken this opportunity of stating
what measures were to be proposed with regard to the light
dues.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should afterwards ask leave
of the house to take the preliminary steps to enable him to
bring in bills, both with regard to the light dues and the
Merchant Seamenee Fund. Though these were highly use-
ful measures they did not eecerearily form part of the
measure now proposed a- affecting the navigation laws.
In answer to Mr. Miele
Mr. LA BOUCHERE said that Ceylon would be treated
exactly the same as any other British colony ; there would
be no particular law for Ceylon alone.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought it would be better for the
' committee not to enter into the general question of the nevi-
gation laws until they had bad an opt orturetv of considering
the plan of the right bon. gentleman. lie would therefore
merely trouble him with one or two questions. One was, as
to the rights of Mime, enjoyed by British vessels on certain
shores, and the importation of feat from 'biota Was it in-
tended to continue the existing restriction, or would foreign
vessels he allowed to come here direct from their fisheries ?
This was a very important question, particularly with respect
to the whale fishery. .lle Mee wished to know whether it
was the intention of government to provide any system of
education for sailors, and to extend the system of examina-
tions for masters and mates established a few years ago ?
Probably the Committee of Council on Education might
apply some portion of their funds for this object in the sea-
port town.. He wished also to ask the right hon. gentleman
whether he had any knowledge of the views of other mare
time power. besides those be had mentioned, Prussia and
the United States ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, if the bowie assented to the
measure proposed, it would undoubtedly be in the power of
foreign vessels to bring the prodece of their telery direct to
this country. But the coast fisheries, with all their privi-
leges, would be reserved to vessels of this country. (Hear,
beer.) As to the views of other foreign maritime powers,
the government had not thought it expedient to make any
overtone to other powers on the eubject, until the house had
peened judgment on this measure. It was much better for
the legislature to take an independent course, (Hear.)
The voluntary examination of shipmasters bad been some
years in ripe ration, tine had been extensively adopted ; he
had, therefore, hesitation in proposing a compulsory
exemination until the voluntary system had been further I
tried. (blear.) He attached the greatest importance to the
education of sailors in the seaports. He had long felt the
necemity of questions of this kind being considered
by some department of the government who would be
competent to deal with them ; and he should take an
early opportunity of proposing a new department of the I
Boxed of Trade, to he cell.fi the Board of mercantile Marine, i
which, without causing any additional expense to the t
country, would be the means of greatly improving the con-
dition of our mercantile marine. (Hear, hear.) This was
a subject which could not enteron the too earnest attention
of the belie., so meat was its importance. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. ROBINSON (who epoke amidst great confusion it
keen members leaving the hour) was undertood to say
that nothing could remove front he mind the impression that I
the great interests of the country were most seriously I
menaced by the measures now proposed. The time at 4
which they were brought forward was most Moppet-
tune; why not defer them until the evidence taken
before the other house had been published?
lie saw much in the labours, of the committee to confirm the
views he entertained, namely, that it would be prejudicial to
the interests of the country to alter the navigation laws. He
would not offer any factious opposi.ion to the measure, but
he thought he might predict that it would considerably add 1
to the difficulties of the government. Ile saw no reason for I
pressing the measure in the present union. With respect I
to the representations of the colonies for a repeal of these I
laws, the only inference that could he drawn from them was, I
that those colonies having been ruined by the free trade I
policy, now wished to indemnify themselves at the expense "
of the shipping interest. He could only say that they would I
be disappointed in those expectations. He denied that tne
con-umers would derive any benefit from the repeal of I
the navigation laws. The difference in the amount t
of freight in British vessels and foreign vessels 4
was so small that it could not benefit the home consumers. I
The right hon. gentleman said that all the great authorities 3
were in favour of a repeal of these laws. lie denied that ;
for even Mr. liuskieson himself, the first great commercial
ref inner, advocated that measure only to the extent of the
reciprocity system. The effect of this measure would be to
give a stimulus to the naval power of foreign countries.
The hon. gentlemen then read an extract from the address j
of the President of the United States, which represented the 3
marine of that country as progrensieg at such a rate that if /
it continued to go on in the same way, they would noon be
the first maritime country in the world. There was no I
doubt that the United States was the most forme 1
dable power that this country ever met with on ,
the pea. Besides, a great revolution had taken place ,
in a neighbouring country, the effect of which would be to e
draw cleser the ties of sympathy which existed already he- I
tween France and America. Wu this a time, then, for I
them to do anything which would injure the naval power of e
the country ? He believed that this country would come out e
of a contest with those countries victorious; but parliament 1
ought to be cautious before they committed an act which would
lessen her power. The right hon. gentleman said that pro.
Unction was no longer necessary for this country. He (Mr. ,
Robinson) believed that protection was necessary to give
employment to the working classes, and if the contrary prin-
ciple was adopted, the ruin of this country would be the m-
oult. He did not agree in all the views of Mr.
Iluskitenn with respect to commerce and the navi•
gation laws, but that great man never proposed any
measure that was calculated to injure the country. On one
occasion Mr. Huskisson said that when the interests of com-
merce and navigation could not be reconciled, the latter
shnuld he preferred to the former. The right bon. gentle-
man alluded to the letter of Mr. Bancroft. Now, it was a
maxim of the executive of the United States never to relax
in carrying any point which it thought would be beneficial
to that country, and Mr. Bancroft, having an American
object in view, chess • this present time, eels great tact, to
write the letter which lied been read. Although it might
appear very liberal on the part of the United Settee to offer
tV recirfocale with theni, he vete(' recommend to the house
not to be le.l away by that circumstance, because the fact
was, the the United States had no advantages to
oiler to this country if she repealed the naviga
tion lawn, whereas the Untied States had very
great advantages to obtain from their repeal. (Hear )
The advantage would, in fact, be all on one side. He con-
fessed he did not a e the edvantage of keeping any colonies,
at all, if their trade was to be given up to foreigners. They
would not be able to give employment to the people of the
country if they gave up protection. They would be sur-
rounded with a labour question which they would find very
difficult of solution. Chartism was put down, but the ranee
which gave birth to it still ezieed, and would be aggravated
if they mama this measure. He was ready to support any
measures for extending commerce, provi ed they did nut
trench on the fundamental principle of the navigation laws.
Mr. HUMP, add be agreed with the hen. gentleman that
the great question the country would be called on to wive
was the labour question; led one of the reasons which in-
duced him to support the Tercel of the navigation laws was,
that it would tenfetter commerce, and thereby open a field
of employment to the working man. He did not think
much of the e xceptione made by the government, and per-
Mips they acted wisely in leaving the oo icing trade tue
touched, It would, at all event., diminish the alarm of the
shipping interests. He saw no reason why the shipping
tercets of this country could not compete with those of otbe'
countries, provided trey met them on equal terms. The
shipping interest of the courier), 'allowed under acme disad-
vantages which, he thought, ought to be ye moved. For
iestence, the rates of telex ir. ursine were too high, and
ought to be reduced. (Hear, hear.) The restrictions re-
specting apprentices ought also to be done away with.

advantage,
andw oleue (Rear,
could
dlykeen be biflito. That
selveedwieha et b zet t.wt
principleho atuit ed
p btereiffn effect
chtaattllgoifiere:pitihe
were best able to manage their own affairs ghoul:" "
adupted with respect to the chipping interest as will "tbs
a
regard to all others. It appeared, from the evidi neer:rid.
tils
American captains, that they considered their emengailea
laws injurious to them, because they crippled the free angina
of Engiiah vessels. Ile thought that much advantage .nut
he derived from a reduction of the light due,. Nn bea than
400,0001. was now levied for light, when 10,0001. woad
answer the purpose. (H ar, hear.) Ile was satisfied that
the shipping interest itself would have reason to rejoice that
the field of competition was thrown open. The introduce
of the raw material of their manufactures duty tree ear':
great advantage to the country, and the precut measure was
the fitting accompaniment of their free trade policy of late
years. The bun. and gallant certain oppoleite n. 1004114
that only one naval officer was examined befoie the
mi'tee. lie did hot know why that ware a.l; but the Whom
who was examined (Sir James Stirling) seemed to be
thoroughly acquainted with the subject, and he (fir,
Hume) never heard better evidence in his life
than was given by that gentleman. (Hear hear.)As to manning the navy he thought it was a mistake to sa
pose that the' measure would have an injurious effect. OPa
the contrary, if it increased the carrying trade of the
opportunity of
ld
lighthouse:dierc
hi
experience
roun. endruE
,ggi.gsesi
totn,
grounds
aTetoelhEiten:shhiorged
sienicre'l this
ypituolurnnni
pretend
iekesheuri,
nheennyuhi
his
bre
country, it was clear that we should have a much tee
cordialß
had
n
t
ot
eneraincnntnldbh
okudeyddshtteguh:dt orpiemput
the
g,d,iftyree.oste,:td.
feebly
darizi
a:,
a.oftyln
mi that t
t countrye the
t
number of seamen to rely upon in time of war thaa we
t
le
could have at the present time. After expo, ire a hope
that her Majesty's government would take the earliest
g
t
thif raL
ltheodh
n
l
pop.wreasorrtpfad.'gpetitioaing for the change; that the people
present laws; that rates were too high, or that
freights were too scarce. The only rearm assigned for this
measure wits that Prussia, forsooth, was interfering with our
trade. Prussia was the country of which the right bon.
baronet below him some time aiuce declared that she " was
coming round"—(a laugt)—that she was about to arlopt;one
free-trade sperm, and to adopt to the full all that the advo.
cats* of that system had proposed. The right hon. gentleman
had told them a story about a ship which had gone to the
Canary Islands for ceeteneal, and on which freights amount-
ing; toed. alb. had been charged. Why, Cl.e alb was about
661. a ton, and would any one believe that at half such a rate
as that plenty of suitable ships could net have been found
read/ in British ports to go to the Canary Islands for a
freight? Why, even "the marines," for whom the right
hon. gentleman evidently intended that story, could scareely
be expected to believe it. (Laughter) Thin the
right lion, gentleman had referred to the characters
of our mercantile marine, and had talked of their immoral
and other vicious practices. lie was not there to say that
among 20,000 men brougat up to au ardrous profession there
might not be found ',ashy of immoral and vicious chareeter
but let the m seek the insurance offices what they thoughtof the
character of our stamen, and they would tell them that they
insured British ships cheaper than any others, because of
the brave conduct of our sailors. Then as to accidents at
sea : why al the returns before them proved that a far
larger proportion of American vessels were wrecked end
stranded than those of vessels belonging to p ,its in England.
But then the abate of our mercantile navy was serenest
to, and Sir James Stirling'a opinions were quoted. Sir J.
Stirling's practice, however, was i pposed to his principles;
for in tee Hound, the vessel he commanded, the greater
proportion of the men had never been in the navy at all.
The right hon. gentleman had not attempted to tell them
how it would be proposed to man the navy if the security
we now possessed was done away with. It was remarkable
that no member of the government had ventured yet to say
what he expe et, d to result from the uperation of these
measures. The hon. gentleman opposite said it would be a
most beneficial mmoure to the British trade. How increased
competition would benefit that trade be (Lord G. Bentinck)
could not sec; but he could see that it would be a measure
for the benefit of Premise shipping, anal for the great ad-
vantage of the commerce of the United States. If the
government knew nothing of the advantage it would con-
ter on that country, at least the United States minister
knew it, for to night he had attended most care
fully to the debate. A return had been cited of the
ship employed and the revereue derived from the protected
and unprotected trade of Great Britain. How was that re-
tarn made eut ? Our trade aRh China was included as an
unprotected treee, as if we wanted protection again t junks
and bamboo bottoms. Our tra lc with Mexico was also cited,
though Mexico had no marine of her own. If they had
looked, however, at other breeches of our general trade they
would have found that the theory of this return was scarcely
borne out. Take the British West India trade, which was
one of the least protected of all bisect ts of our trade, and
they would find there constant decline and constant disap-
pointment. The returns, in fee, were calculated and meant
to deceive. (Hear, hear) And now let him ask what did
the government expect would be the diminution of the coat
of freights under this new system In a newspaper article
written by one of the members of the government they were
told that 2s. ed. a ton was to be the saving derived by the cm-
eumers of this country. The question, therefore, came to this.
Was the house, before they sew something more of the working
of this free trade system, prepared to make a sacrifice of at
'meet a million a year, a: present paid to British shipowners?
(Hear, hear.) During a very recent period, her Majesty's
government and the Times newspaper raised great alarms
about the probable rate of freights in bringing over con; and
the navigation laws had, in conseqnence, heen suspended.
But it I ad now been proved that that measure was unneces-
sary; and not seeing that any substantial reason had been
given for continuing to act upon its principle, he should cer-
tainly give the present measure all the opposition possible.
lie had only one word further to say, and that related to the
effect of this measure in our colonies. It was his belief that
our colonial trade would, if it passed, be thrown entirely
into the hands of the Americans. He predicted the most dis-
astrous consequences to the empire kora this circumstance.
Mr. J. L. ItICARDO could hardly reconcile Berne of the
statem-nts made by the noble lord. What be had said with
regard to the great proportion in the lees of American vessels
over English ones could be cosily accounted for. The time
to which his lordship referred was one of great pressure, and
when it was found necessary to send a large number of
vessels upon the service. With regard to what had been
said by the noble lord respecting the advantages which an
open trade would give to the United States he begged
entirely to dimgree. He did not anticipate that any such
effect would take place. It was a fact that whereas the
United States ships were the dearest built and manned of any
in the world, by the arrangement which this country
now had with them they menopolised two-thirds of the
trade ; and that whereas Prugaia, having her ships built and
manned more cheaply than any other country, was obliged
to give us the whole trade between that country and this.
The noble lord had stated that the government had brought
forward the measure on feeble gruunds, and that the mer-
chants and manufacturers of the country had no grievance
to complain of. lie (Mr. Ricardo) confessed that when he
outcon oneside grievanceredthatth thatn oblehle was
orhimreaseldfyhtaod begungive
upbyT
hpoein(tinsirg
Ricardo) could not understand how the noble lord could
maintain the non-existence of grounds of complaint. The
noble lord having given up the point respecting the Lascars,
how stood the case Last year there was a great scarcity
of raw material and manufactures, and idleness, and conse-
quently distress, ensued. At that very time there was great
conmercial distress in this country; failures were taking
place on every side, and, amongst others, an old.
established house in Newcastle failed, as they stated in the
circular issued to their creditors, entirely on account of the
state of the East India trade. He wished to point out the
fact to them, that while suck was the state of affairs in Eng-
land—while the operatives in the manufacturing districts
were starving for want of raw material—while merchants
were becoming bankrupt, to support the monopoly of ship-
owners—these very Lascars were manning the vessels of this
country to support that very monopoly. He would main-
tain that it those ships which were ready to bring those
commodities, which would have saved the operatives
of this country from starvation and her merchants from
bankruptcy, instead of being huil: of Indian wood and
manned by Indian men, had been built in the United States
and manned by Americans, the injustice would have been
equally great, the oppression equally tyrannical. The
evil consisted not in the trade which was Minted, but in the
trade which was entirely etoppei by the restrictions of which
he complained. He would take the rime of Australia. There
were in this country hundreds and thousands of people un-
employed, and animus to go anywhere where they could find
employment; there were in Austria/la thousands of acres un-
cultivated from want of people to culeivate ; but there
was in this country a navigation law which would not allow
them to go there. It was stated to the committee upon that
subject that there'was a great deal of emigration taking place
to Australia. The between-deck fare
,lando that place by the
B emen ships was rather below 12/
this country varied between 201. and 25/. ; and, moreover, it
wes stated that if there was any preference to be given to the
vessls o eith s in oint of acconnnodetion, that
the e
diffef renceer waside in favour of the Bremen ships.
After such a contrast as he had 'hewn, he asked
where was there the justification fur preserving
ouch a law? It Ir.A a great wrievarice for &merchant to
know that his competitor in Germany w.s enabled to per-
chess cheaper than himself, while, when he met hien in
the market with the mmufactured article, he was enmpelled
to sell it on ecptal terms. But the magnitude of the misehief
was even greater than it appeared; it was not found oat
until some ch urge of circumstance a f °reed it upon •
public attention. There wee a beat n track, a 1
whenever it was tried to escape from it then the navigation
laws were, belied of. He would t ske tee case of Jaya As
soon as that house hall opened the trade some ot our neer-
ebanes sent out their English manufactures ; the ships were
obliged to go away and brine back other cargoes, Laic g com-
pelled to trust to some other ship to bring back their cargoes
from the ieland. It happened that there were several :awns,
but no British ships, at the puce, so that the cargo
could not be brow-Oat back ; and tee merchants, finding
the inconvenience thus entailed on them, abeildoned the
trade altogether. Such was the case with cover ore. They
were obliged to have a particular ship to bring it, e r they
could uot brng it et ell. A measure lead be n passed in et
house to lets in coeper ore free of duty. Now he knewth the
case of a merchant who bad a tares &meant of that ore at
Java which he desired to bring to this country, but in conse-
quence of the law he found that in order to do eo be would
be obliged to send it hack to Chili in the first place. lie
considered the restriction to him lye an wejustifieble eacrifico
which they hart in view was exeremed in the title of the bill,
"An Act for :he encourageromet of the commercial metric"
with a view to manning the Royal Navy," Surely Atter 200
iwtshicchonuntiri,uemancei°ufe, wgasmatltog"detshueffir clue:xicuresaarle.waTh"he"oenjectror
years of enooursgemeat the navy ot Shia 97111d1y MAWS