The Express.
London, England, 1847-12-03 00:00:00

NAVIGATION LAWS.

Mr. RICARDO inquired when government proposed
to bring forward any measure for the repeal or alteration of
these laws ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said, certainly it would not be before
Christmas. After the recess he would consider the state of
public business, and inform the house when he hoped to be
able to bring in a measure on the subject.
JOINT STOCK COMPANIES.

Mr. CARD WELLasked whether the bill which it was
understood would be introduced to amend the act of 1844,
relating to the winding up of the affairs of Joint Stock Com-
panies, was prepared, and if it would be proceeded with
during the present wagon ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the hon. gentleman would
recollect that his right hon. friend the Vice-President of the
Board of Trails bad introduced a bill in the last session of
parliament, which, owing to the late period of the seuion,
and the nature of the opposition by which it was met, did
not pass. His right hon. friend had since directed his atten-
tion to the subject, and consulted with those best qualified
to give an opinion upon it, and he trusted that in the course
of the session a measure would be matured and submitted to
parliament, calculated to effect the object in view, and
which should be at the same time free from the objections
urged against the former bill.
THE TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.

Sir J. lAlll46f4ssll;isicedtZ be informed of the man-
ner in which those convicts, who had been sentenced to tran-
sportation daring the present year, had been dispesed of ;
also what course would be in future adopted for the disycnal
of that class of convicts, and whether an steps had been
taken to establish the convict station at Portland ?

Sir G. GREY said the subject was one which had engaged
the careful attention of government. No doubt, since the
suspension of transportation to Van Dieman's Land in 1846,
considerable difficulties had arisen in satisfactorily disposing
of prisoners sentenced to be transported, and in order to dis-
pense with a point of law, a considerable increase bad been
made in the number of this class of convicts employed under
the admiralty and ordnance departments in the dock yards
and animals of Woolwich and Portsmouth. With re-
gard to the establishment at Portland, he had hoped the
arrangements would have been complete by this time ; but
an unexpected cause of delay had arieen in the claims of
parties who powered leasehold interests in the land required
for the necessary buildings. His noble friend (the First
Commissioner of Woods and Forests), however, bad oorifi-
dent bore that these claims would soon be adjusted, when
the arrangements would be carried out.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.

In 131.11WertOTC1
Mr. LABOUCHERE trusted that in the oourse of the
session a measure would be matured and submitted to
parliament, he should be enabled to collect the most valuable
and accurate statistical information. . _

, - -
Mr. A. STAFFORD asked whether the right hon. gen- I
Hunan would move for the appointment of a committee of
inquiry p,evione to the introduction of the proposed bill ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE would consider that point ; but his
belief was, that sufficient information might be laid before
the house without entering upon any such inquiry.
CONDITION OF IRELAND.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL would postpone his motion as to the
consolidation of the several government departments of
England and Ireland, which he had put on the paper for the
purpose of bringing the state of Ireland generally under
consideration, if it was the wish of the house that be should
do so, in order to give precedence to the adjourned debate
on the commercial distress. (Hear, bear.)
FEES IN COURTS OF LAW AND EQUITY.
Mr. ROMILLY moved for the appointment of a select
committee to inquire into the taxation of suitors in law and
equity, extending the same to all courts, including the Eccle-
siastical and Admiralty Courts, by the collection of fees ; the
amount, mode of collection, and appropriation of such fees,
and the salaries and fees received by the officers of those
court,, and whether any means can be adopted with a view
of superintending and regulating the collection and appro-
priation thereof.
Sir G. GREY.—Understanding that the object was simply
to continue the inquiry commenced last session, at the in-
stance of the hon. and learned member for Kinsale, would
not oppose the motion. With regard to the County Courts,
inquiries were now in progress with a view, if possible, to re-
duce the fees generally.—Motion agreed to.
POOR LAW ADMINISTRATION ACT.
Mr. G. BANKES roe. to mete for leave to bring in a bill
to amend this act by reducing the amount' of charge to
which the public are liable under its provisions. It would
be remembered that a committee of the previous session re-
ported that, with regard to the existing commission, their pro-
ctsedinge were in many respects irregular, arbitrary, contrary
to the statute, and calculated to shake public confidence.
But he was not entitled to say that this report had °Eva-
eloped the chance in the views of the government, though
such an impression had prevailed in the minds of many
members of the committee. At all events, the government
had themselves introduced a bill, which, after considerable
discussion, had been passed in June laid, changing the mode
of the administration of the poor law ' • but from that time up
to the present its provisions had not been brought into ope.
ration. He therefore called upon the government to explain
why this was the ease. The hon. and learned member con-
cluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill.
Mr. A. STAFFORD seconded the motion.

Lord J. RUSSELL thought that when the house was in-
formed of the facts of the case, hon. members would find
there existed no reason for taking the hasty step the
bon. end learned gentleman proposed. It was true
that there had been for some years three com-
missioners to whom bad been entrusted the admini-
stration of the poor-laws, and whose total salaries
amounted to 8,0001. per annum. What the government
lest year proposed was, that instead of these three commis-
sioners, there should be one president, with a eatery of
2,0001., end two secretaries with salaries of 1,500/. per
annum each, thereby making the cost just 1,0001.
per annum less them that of the former establish-
ment. With regard to carrying that arrangement into
effect, it was not possible for him to explain the communica-
tions he had had with many individual, and the unwilling.
ness persons had shown to undertake so very responsible and
laborious an office; but with respect to the statement that
at present there was only one commissioner doing the
business of the department, the hon. and learned gentleman
had made a great mistake. When his bon. friend the mem-
ber for Hereford (Mr. Lewis) reigned his seat at the board,
I there still remained Mr. Nicholls and Sir Edmund Head,
who continued to carry on the business of the commission
I from that time. He (Lord J. Russell) was, however, happy
to my that the new arrangements were now nearly corn-
pitted, and within a week or ten days there would be a pre-
'sident and two secretaries appointed, in conformity with the
provisions of the act of last session. He (Lord J. Russell)
did not concur in the censure which the majority of the se-
lect committee had passed against the old poor-law commis-
sioners, and he had already on a former occasion stated his
reasons why he did not so concur, and as no member of the
committee had ever asked the house to agree to that
report, and to confirm the censure, he had under-
stood it was because such a proposition would not
I be tenable in that house. On the other point the hon. and
learned member was entirely mistaken as to the course of
the government. His right hon. friend (Sir 0. Grey) ob-
tained leave to bring in the bill for the prevention of mime
in Ireland only on Monday last, and the bill was not deli-
vered into the hands of members until Wednesday morning,
land be (Lord J. Ruda) thought it would have been an un-
fair coulee to bring the bill to a second reading either on
Wednesday or Thursday. He thought it was only fair to,
hon. members who wished to consider the subject to give
them time until Monday next to do so, end accordingly it I
had been settled that the second reading should be fixed for
Monday next. (Hear, hear.) The government had no in-
tention of postponing any stage of the bill ; on the contrary,
believing it to bo necessary for the prevention of crime, and
the protection of life and property in Ireland, they should
proceed with the measure on Monday, and every day after-
wards that was allowed them by the house.
Mr. DISRAELI thought the present government woe
the last that ought to attempt to depreciate the report of a
select committee. Whatever might now be the opinion of the
noble lord as to the decision of the Andover committee he could
not deny that he bad virtually acted upon it, for after the
report bad been made the noble lord came forward end
immediately proposed a great revolution in the means of
administering the affairs of the poor law. (Hear, bear.)
And, therefore, he thought that those who had been diem.
tidied with the previous administration would have been
satisfied with the result which the Andover inquiry
had achieved ; and, that it was quite unnecessary for
any member of the committee to pursue the subject
further. (Hear, hear.) But it so happened that in
consequence of the delay of the government thy
same hon. gentleman last dation gave notice of another
motion on the 'abject unless the delay was satisfactorily ex-
plained. That motion dropped in consequence of the illness
of the hon. gentleman, and the impending dissolution of
wliament He (Mr. Disraeli), therefore, contended—
first, that the noble lord, though he did not approve of the
report of the committee, had virtually acted upon it ;
secondly, that the members of the committee who voted in
favour of the report, did not shrink from vindicating that
report in this house • and thirdly, that as her Majesty's
government had acted upon it, it would have rather had an
air of a vindictive character to pursue that investigation any
further, or to provoke any discussion on that topic. (Hear.)
After • few weeds from Mr. F. Faerecx and Captain
Pietist!,
Mr. SAHEBS consented to withdraw his motion.
LANDED ESTATES (IRELAND).
Mr.B.OSBORNE moved for • return of all leaded estates
in Irelend,under the management of receivers of the Courts
of Chancery and Equity Exchequer in Ireland, dating the
names of the receivers, their profession or occupation, and
residence, the number of tenants, the amount expended on
each property for improvements since the said properties
came under the management of a receiver of the Court of
Chancery, and the arrears which have been allowed to
accumulate. Also, for copies of the general rules or ia-
structiona given since 1843 by the Court of Chancery in
Ireland, for the guidance of receivers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to
the latter part of the motion, on the ground that it was not
included in the notice of motion. If the return wee moved

for in the form set out in Lord Devon's commission, he
should not object to it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the return would be granted u
asked, as he intended to found a motion upon it.
Mr. HAMILTON suggested to his hun. friend the pro•
priety of withdrawing his motion for the present, and giving
a new notice in as amended form.
Mr. GUINNESS said that after an experience of 25 years
as • receiver under the Court of Chancery he could state
that no class of property in Ireland more required the
attention of the house than that which unfortunately was
placed under the jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery. The
control of those estates ought either to be altogether taken
away from the Court of Chancery, or its powers ought to be
enlarged.
Sir G. GREY admitted the importance of the subject, and
said the government did not object to the return moved for,
and they only wished It to be withdrawn for to-night, and •
notice, given of it in the form in which it was desired.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that with that explanation he
would withdraw the motion for the present.
APPEALS IN CRIMINAL CASES.

Mr. EWART said that lately several cases had occurred
is which persons had been found guilty and punished for a
supposed infraction of the law who had subsequently been
discovered to be innocent, and had received free pardons
hom the crown. The first was Mary-Ann Turpin, who
bad been found guilty at the Central Criminal Court, and
sentenced to six months' imprisonment. She had since been
proved to be innocent, and had received a free pardon. The
next cam woo that of Thomas Whalley, who had been con-
victed at the Stafford Assizes, and sentenced to fifteen years'
transportation. After he had been imprisoned eighteen
months his innocence of the offence was proved, and he also
received a free pardon. There was also the case of Charles
Butler, who had been found guilty of a criminal offence
which afterwards proved to be a civiloffesee, and he received
a free pardon. Among other similar cases there was that of
three men who had been transported to Van Diemen's Land,
and being afterwards found to he innocent had been par-
doned and received a donation of 101. each. Now these ware
most anomalous and tinjuat proceeding,, and he begged to
ark his right hen. friend the Home Secretary whether it
was the intention of the government to institute a court of
criminal appeal, or adopt any similar remedial measures for
such PAWS ?
Sir G. GREY said he should not now enter upon a dis-
(melon which would necessarily occupy • considerable por-
tion of the time of the house. He could assure his hon.
friend that even if there had been in existence a court of
criminal appeal, he did not believe it could have afforded
that speedy relief which had been afforded in the three cases
to which he had first referred. The question of the eatablilt-
ment of such a court was beset with difficulties, as was evi-
denced by the fact that though Sir F. Kelly introduced a
measure with that object in 1844, yet when that hon. and
learned gentleman became solicitor-general he had not
attempted to revive the bill as • measure which ke could
satisfactorily recommend when in office. With respect to
the case of Mary Ann Timely, she WAS convicted at the last
October sessions of the Central Criminal Court of stealing a
watch, and sentenced to six months' imprisonment Now if
there had been a court of appeal she must have waited until
the ensuing term, and at some future session she would
have had to be tried again. But what actually took place
in her cars? The Recorder of London wrote to
him (Sir G. Grey) oa the 23rd of November, stating
that a man of the nuns of Ward had been convicted on the
clearest evidence of being the perpetrator of the crime im-
puted to the woman Turpio, and on the very same day
that he (Sir G. Grey) received that communication an order
was sent from the Home-office for her immediate discharge.
(Hear, hear.) The case of Thomas Whalley had bees this.
lie was tried and convicted of rape at the Stafford Spring
Assizes. Three months elapsed before the cage came under his
notice; but on the 11th of June a petition had been ad-
dressed to him, stating thst the offence was of an improbable
character, and accompanied with many voluminous docu-
ments. On receipt of them he (Sir G. Grey) read them,
and having satisfied himself that they established a prima
facie case for further inquiry, he had adopted the usual
coulee and forwarded them to Mr. Serjeant Gaselee before
whom acting as a judge of assize, the man Whalley had lit en
tried. A very considerable time elapsed and Mr. Serjeant
Gaselee made no report, and in August he was reminded of
the matter, upon which the learned serjeant wrote to say
that he was unable to make any report, in consequence of
the prisoner's counsel having desired him to withhold it
until some further documents were referred to him (Sir G.
Grey). Those documents he (Sir G. Grey) received towards
the end of August, and on the 28th August he received from
Mr. Serjeant Guides a report, which was not conclusive, but
which in fact concurred in the verdict of the jury. mai-
dering however the other documents, and receiving informa-
tion as to the character of the husband of the prosecutris he
(Sir G. Grey)comenunicated with one of the Barons of
Exchequer, who knew something of the case, and requested
him to read the papers and to communicate with Mr. See-
jeant Gaselee; and at last he (Sir G. Grey), on the 29th of
October, received a final report from those learned persons,
both concurring, after mature deliberation, that the verdict
was wrong and could not be sustained. Upon that
the prisoner was immediately discharged. (Hear, hear.)
As to the case of Charles Butler, he was not
discharged, because his offence turned out to he of a civil and
note criminal character, but he was discharged solely on a
medical certificate to the effect that a further imprisonment
would endanger his life. An application bad been made on
other grounds, which on inquiry he had felt it to be his duty
to refuse. With respect to the three prisoners who had been
sent to Van Diemen's Land, and whose innocence had since
been established, it was quite true that they had been par-
doned and brought home, and that 101. had been paid to
each of them, so that when they landed they should not be
penniless. Now, in none of these caws would a court of
criminal appeal have been of any avail, for such a court
could not deal with facia, and though he should be thankful
to get rid of the painful duty of deciding such cases, still he
could not see the expediency of establishing such a tri-
bunal. (Hear, hear.)
BOROUGH LUNATIC ASYLUMS.

Mr. DEERING inquired from tbe right hon. baronet the
Hoene Secretary, whether it was his intention to enforce the
discretionary power vested in him by the act 7 and 8 Vic.,
c. 126, where an wine* for pauper lanatics shall not have
been begun before August next in any county of Eng-
land.

Sir G. OREY said the act in question gave the corpora-
tions in cities and boroughs, three year, from the passing
of the act to erect asylums. Those three years would expire
in August, 1848 ; when that time arrived, if it should
appear that the justices hid failed to comply with the pro-
visions of the act, he should feel it his duty, if he then had
the honour to hold his present office, to exercise the discretion
vested in the Home Secretary by the statute in question, ac-
cording to the facts and particulars of each case as it might
be presented to bite.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.— COMMERCIAL
DISTRESS.

The order of the day for retaining the adjourned debate
on commercial dietrees having been read,
Mr. URQUHART said it appeared to him that the ques-
tion before the house was one of far greater importance than
seemed to be considered by several hon. members who had
already addreued the house. The existing misery and dis-
tress was to be attributed to the series of legislation which
had characterised the commercial history of this country.
The measure of 1844, when introduced, had been denounced
by some and cheered by others, and he thought its
results justified those denunciations, and disproved
all the reasons which bad been urged in its favour.
When that bill was mused, his opinion was as decided u to
, its result& as they were new that its operation had been
pretty well ascertained. When the right hon. hart. intro-
duced the bill, he said it was of the gravest importance, and
that the country at large would be affected by it. Thecountry
at large had since seen and felt severely its effects. It was
not merely that the bill undoubtedly was of the gravest im-
! pertance, but its results showed that it convulsed the whole
state of the country—it cenfusecl every branch of trade—it
superseded the laws of our constitution—it treated with de-
lfiance every dictate of reason and common sense, and it left
us in the midst of a chaos, as en the morrow of the de-
luge. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) On Tuesday
night last it was said that the present disaster
' was not the result of the Bank charter, but that it was caused
by speculations in railways. Now he would ask what rail-
ways were ? They were undertakings like many other spe-
culations in this country, at least in some respects; all that
could be said of them was, that a great number of people
were employed in their construction, and the yeses those
people received went to pay for tea, sugar, bread, butter,
and other articles of food, as well es clothing. There might
have been injurious speculations in railways ; no doubt there
were; but those were questions of a private and commercial
kind. In railways it should be recollected there was no
abstraction of capital from the country. How was it
that our demand for foreign grain had not called
forth a corresponding demand for oar manufac-
tures? The expectations and hopes held out in that respect
by the advocates of free trade were sadly disappointed—
geld was preferred to our manufactures. The reason was,
because there was a bonus for gold, and an embargo upon
our manufactures. (Hear, hear.) The lamentable result
was, that many millions were drained out of the country,
which had brought it to its present state. He would ask why
was it that the price of gold was fixed ?—why was it that
our gold sent out of this country during the war should
have been sent at 51. an ounce, and now sent out at
31. 17s. 184 d. ? Free trade had been called for—restrictions
were objected Wand denounced. The principle was admitted.
Why should not the same principles be applied to gold ?
The truth was, the price of gold was fixed, and if
the honourable mover of the amendment objected to
the price of gold being fixed, and supported the
present system of currency, he must be guilty
he might be allowed to use the expression) of inconsis-
tency. The next question he would advert to was waverti-
bility, which, he need hardly my, meant t
paper money for gold. During the war weoar
gold at the then market value, but sine*, the e
inflexible that gold should be at the same pries wader all
circumstances sad all changes. People who wow prawn a
U. note to gee ohmage reselme Ise aseerelips lier It, but if
every one Who had metes wished to get thma switesged, and
presented theta for that purpows, there wooldbesseach thiag
as convertibility, (Hear, hear.) He lashed apes the feet
that there was no fixed standard for gold es sae of the mesa'
important topics of that debate. It was said that
a fixed standard for gold would be bad—the ques-
tion was whether it would or not. The mimed*s
of free trade, those who were instrumental in she
late measure removing all restrictions upon e,
that they were in favour of unlimited freedom from restrit-
tions. Mow was it reconcilable that they were
for restrictions upon that (geld) which represented all
=? (Cheers.) Our existing money laws had, in effect, de-
, that to him who had much, more should be added;
while from him who had little, all should be taken away.
Mr. E. ELLICE thought it most extraordinary that, with
the vast iedustry and mineral wealth of this country pe-
riodical convulsions should occur, shaking commerce and in-
dustry to its centre. (Hear.) Host willingly would he sup-

po
benefit
tnefitht ewievietowsbeof
dthereivelastd
ifrostrystkeouheceruh,nliiinfanghweeiethicthplotio:berh:itptniring::i
Few people, now-a-days, imagined that our evils could
be remedied by a fluctuating standard. (Hear, hear.)
How was such a standard to be used,—how made
neverapplica bbl.e.toreLurte
aacontoditiinon
that country to ruin. (Hear.) One of the meat unfortunate
steps ever taken in this country was, that, after having
mooed such a vast amount of obligations during the war, we
should resolve to resume cash payments in 1819. (gem..)
He bad deeply deplored this course ; but it was now too late
to go back. (Hear.) The object of that measure was to
carry out in good faith that which parliament had deter-
mined on. At that time his only objection to it was there.
duction of the value of the ounce of gold from 81s. to
77a, 10Id,, and on this he had proposed an ameadment bat
without success. Ha had aince felt bound by that IMF
sure, and had been foiemost in seeking to maintain it.
Mr. MUNTZ You cannot maintam it. (Hear.)
Mr. ELLICE : But we were bound to endeavour to do so
as long as we could. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman
then alluded to the crises of 1816 and 1819, and observed
that the bullion then forced out of this country had very
soon after been fouud in the bank of France. Then came the
right hon. baronet's (Sir R.Peers) measure of 1819; and who
did not remember the closely succeeding events of 1822,
when 13,000,0001. of paper was borrowed from the Beek
gold took its departure, and the memorable disasters of 182,i
occurred ? The Bank, with 30,000,0001. of paper out, was
then so near stopping payment, that the directors sat in the
parlour with their watches out, anxiously awaiting the
stroke of four o'clock, to close the doors of the establishineat.
(Hear, hear.) Other fluctuations of less import bad sns
ceeded, until in 1844 the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel)
had proposed his recent measure, doubtless with the view of
checking these fluctuations. To effect this, the principle of
convertibility had been adopted. Though he (Mr. Ellie.)
approved of this principle et the time, be had now gems
doubt,' as to its operation ; and he entirely dissented from
the inference drawn by his right hon. friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, that the measure of 1844 was the safest
that could be devised. Surely recent events could not war-
rant such a belief in the mind of any man. (Hear, hest,)
One recent occurrence had much tended to alter his vial=
as to the security of the principle of convertibility. Re
alluded to the vast importations of grain, both in this
country and in France. While, in France, these trams&
hone, being chiefly transfers of grain from one put of the
country to the otter, had caused but little derangement of
their monetary alleles—here, on the other hand, the whole
of the funds necessary to purchase corn having to be with-
drawn front the central establishment, the Bank of England,
the greatest derangement had been thereby created, whose
effect was probably equal to the withdrawal from the eV.
rency of three times the amount of gold sent out of the
country. (Hear, hear.) Such a state of things could not
possibly have occurred, had our currency been based upon
actual deposits of money. It mattered not to this part of the
argument what was the standard of value—it might be gold,
or tin, or any other metal ; but with a fluctuating standard
it would be impossible to conduct the vast affairs of a nation
like this. (Hear.) He was not so fully convinced as the right
, hon. beronetbelow him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) of
' the security of our position ; probably he should have thought
it necessary to interfere earlier, but no one could forme
events, especially where so many disturbing causes
were at work. There was not only the importation of ma
but the railroads. He was no enemy to railways; on the
other band, he thought the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr.
Hudson), the founder of the system, well entitled to the
gratitude of the country. Still, It should be remembered
that these conjoint causes had been productive of im-
mense loss. Still, great good would arise hereafter
from the railways ; it was impossible to estimate the amount
of that good ; and in securing it we were in the position of a
person who bad crippled his means by the purchase of a de-
ferred annuity. (Hear.) Another disturbing cause was
the connexion of the government with the Bank. (Hear,
hear.) The bill of 1844 professed to provide security
against the Bank acting so as to injure the position
of the ounts7. The right hon. the Chancellor of the
Excheqe,contended that this would net have happened
had the rectors acted discreetly. Why, had the right boa.
gentleman himself been governor of the Bank, probably the
same course would have been pursued. The whole system
of every Chancellor of the Exchequer, since 1819, had been
nothing but an abuse of credit ; they blew the bubble of
prosperity for the sake of the particular budget of the year—
(hear, bear)—though he must admit that his right hon.
friend below him had rather avoided this last year. (Hear,
hear.) But, is the position in which this country had been
recently placed he thought it would have been better not to
have taken up a loan, but to have raised the money by taxa-
tion. He never could understand why we should have any
floating debt in this country when Exchequer Bills were at
par. The fact was, that the whole of our revenue system
was so mined up with the questions of currency and Bank
management, that it was impossible to go into any inquiry
without considering the whole. (Hear, hear.) Were he
asked what system he would substitute for the existing doe,
he must confess he fell himself very much in the dark, and he
believed we were all so. (Hear.) After struggling nearly
30 years with the principle of convertibility, he feared we
must come to the conviction that it could not be maintained,
especially now that it was subjected to the test of failing
harvests and free trade. (Hear, lieu.) In toying this, he
spoke as a friend of free trade ; but he conceived we had not
yet seen all the effects of the system. (Hear, hear.) The
great defalcation of food in Ireland was another cause of
difficulty ; and this led to the inquiry how were our existing
deficiencies to be supplied? All these things conspired to
make the present a state of transition. lie felt all the dIM.
citifies and embarrassments of his righthon. friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer consequent on this transition system.
By the time the committee made its report, they should know
probably what the system of finance was to be with reference
to the permanent taxation of the country. As to the Scotch
banks, to which allusion had been made, there was nothing
so admirable on the surface as those banks ; and he believed
the great banks in that country were as well provided as the
Bank of England to meet their engagements; they had
always been careful in maintaining adequate security
for their liabilities. The system did not depend
on any ',articular principle as much so on the men who
worked it. He thought, however, that in times of pressure
and emergency the Scotch banks should be able to avoid the
necessity of coming to England for assistance. His right
hon. friend said that the Bank of England was in a very
healthy and flourishing state, and he believed it bad that day
reduced its interest to 6 per cent. ; but it was not the con-
dition of the Bank as much se the condition of the public
which had to do with the question. One of the moot essea-
tial things to be inquired into by the oom-nittee would be the
dealing of the Bank in public securities. The present system
was unsatisfactory and unsound, and he thought they should
know better how to amend it after the inquiry of the com-
mittee. Still, however, he knew the advantages and con-
veniencies of oar present system, but he hoped the legis-
lature would secure those advantages to the country without
again exposing it to the risks and dangers under which it
now suffered. (Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE said it was quite necessary that the
Bank should go Late the market and sell securities, for whet
its deposits were withdrawn, it was boned to sacrifice its
securities at the same time • and they ought not to find
fault with the Bank directors for complying with the enact-
ments which had been forced upon them. It was true that
upwards of 35,009,0001. bad been expended on railways
during the last year, but that ram had not gone out of the
circulation of the country, and the real pressure bad been
produced by the payment of 33,000,0001. for corn. What-
ever might be said to the contrary, be must contend that
free trade had greatly aggravated the crisis, for large im-
portations of corn must lead to large exportations of bullion,
end its effect on the monetary system of the country must be
evident. It was true that America had taken more of our
manufacture., but then it had been at ruinous prices. He
also contended that free trade had deranged the general
balance of trade, and turned it against this country, es
was shown by a reference to our exports and imports
for the years 1845, 1546, and 1847. The exports bad fa/knoll
3,000,0001. in the last year, and 1,000,0001, in the last month.
That a system of free trade was inconsistent with a restricted
currency was proved by these moults, and with the imme-
diate prospect of recurriag difficulty were they to teat con-
tent, pending the proposed inquiry (perhaps for the next 18
months), until our merchants were ruined, and all the
labourers *waged on railway works, and the artisans OF
ployed in our manufactures, were thrown upon the peor
rates ? Mr. Newdegate west on to condemn the terms upon
which we bad been compelled to take gold from Russet
and also to combat the opinion of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer that there bad been no contraction
of currency. He complained, also, of the operation
of the act of 1844, as giving an advantage to the Bank in
the discount market, and as being opposed to the principle
previously recognised, that a contraction of coedit should
precede a contraction of circulation. Them matters, he trusted,
would be investigated by the committee, but hoped the late.
rests of the country would not be endangered by a determi-
nation obstinately to maintain—pending a long and tedious
inquiry—a law under which depression must continue and
increase so long as the balance of trade remained &Oast us,
and that no dogmatic adherence to a principle which 'w-
hence had proved to be erroneous, would induce geom.
meat to refuse to relax an oppressive and dangerous law.
Mr. MITCHELL attributed the commercial data*
lender which the country had been suffering to over-
' Mr. DRUMMOND said that the right hon. b 4
member for Tamworth, must be a wonderful man,ztal bla
bill of 1844 be a most wonderful bill, if either could emmase
pH& one-twentieth part of that which had been attlitnlA
to them. (" Hear," and a laugh.) The right boa. mrsis,
her for Coventry had shown clearly many of the sanomiMidt
had contributed to bring the country to its monk osmillina
He (Mr. Drummond) was not one of those who Montt the
repeal of the corn laws, much as he disliked that samissme
had anything whatever to do with the position in whkalli
country was now placed ; but, with regard to miletedia
confessed that he thought both the late and the puma
government had been much to blame when, having MM
warned by their own respective boards, they ought te ban
taken same decisive measure to check the mania which thin
t since raged. With respect to the bill of 1844, be bad
that it was to be the precursor to the patties"
to the connexion between the government art the
Desk of England ; but it was quite obviot
"tat had recently transpired, that the mode of con
the business of its Bank had been completely
AS to eiver.trading, it was manifest that it had existed Is Off
tormlible extent. In ancient times, when at glair waited
from Venice and Genoa, they carried goods end MOW*
assinnge for produce, and there was in the wesid assail
: Wao leading by paper until this nation bid eissoft
is get rid of its own ram of kings, and to
a Denima. (Hear, and laughter.) Hanoi astS
mast Braising • false credit. It had been said that Meals
esealey than had always been alternations of
and ensue of adversity. But how was it that Cur=
had se mesh increased in its depth and intensity? why
bosom they bad changed the whole relative cendidtan
moiety. Is *mar times the land was considered oval-

, and a
it was distincoomestion hon ad
sense been
wog between tha which was
common
to beca
chit which was pereonal • but of late years the
Doe had been to cry down land, and to exalt cotton;
had put down the landlords goodslt the cotton
(e laugh) —they had cheapened , but they had
.be tam from their customers the means of buying them.
ar, hear.) They had listened to a manufacturer of
m `,....sursate eloquence, prudence, and judgment, who had
and that the towns should rule the country. The townand s did a
es, and much good might it do them. (" Hear,"
wt.) The systeem had enabled them to raise colossal for-
ram amidst a starving population. (Hear, hear.) Under
a die operatives ware lording it over them at one time, and
busing their mills and sacking their peaces at another. It
W been said that free-trade principles pervaded the land,
ad Lawlor' was pointed to as haviag, in maintenance of
*se principles, returned as its representative the noble lord
,the head of the treasury. That was true ; but the condi,
had taken off some of the grace of that charm by
the noble lord with a Jew. (Laughter.) But, on
*other bud, the cosetitneney, pa
exceilete• the most
ishtened modern Athena, had given a reverse judgment,
laraey had toned out that the modern Demosthenes must
met elate here, and they bad sent in his steads gentleman
00 was to teach the house how to behave itself. (Laughter.)
bI'OItEGOR expressed hie general isoncurrence in
* views stated by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of
lie Enhequer, as to the causes of distress, of which he did
am consider the act of 1844 to be one, although he admitted
east measure not to be without its defects. Its restrictions,
"wildly with respect to Scotland, bad operated grievously,
sad bad been attended with great commercial incenveniente
;that country. He regretted that his right hon. friend had
attacked the Seopi banks, to which he (Mr. Iti'Gregor)
believed the prosperity of Scotland, the improvement of
that country, and establishment of its manufactures, were to
be attributed. The beet test, the soundness of the principles
en which the Scotch banks were founded, was the fact that
so very few failures bad taken place, and that even those
which had 'wended would pay fully 20a. in the pound.
He was sum when the whole case was investigated, and
when the returns he hod moved for to-day were before the
beau, it would be found that the condition of the Scotch
banks was sound, and that they were adapted for every

IPTIANDARS said he had beard of venous causes of
lisUese, and various remedies. It had been stated over and
um again that the commercial distress in which the country
was involved was attributable to railways, but he decidedly
taunted from that proposition. He should like to
Vow whether the construction of railways had sent
gold out of the country. Hail it caused the exchanges
is be against us ? Had it caused the floating caeltol of the
country to be converted to fixed capital ? Certainly not.
altar, hear.) It had been said that money expended on
the onstruction of railways—that railway capital, was (all
teed capital. That was not so. If a man, for instance, in-
vested 60,0001. in railways it undoubtedly became fixed, in a
certain sense, but what became of the lawyers' bills, the
same expended in iron, wages, materials, de. ? Provisions
were purchased by the labourers employed, by the iron
founders, artisans, &c. The sums paid in that way were
therefore no drain upon the country—they remained in it
and were tioatiag capital. (Hear, hear.) As to the Bank
Charter he thought it impossible, even in times of
prosperity, that it could be operative : in times of
pressen, he need hardly express his opinion that
the currency of the country was inadequate for its
use. However, he (Mr. Sanders) did not object to the in-
gain, but he wished to suggest that some tempotary mea-
sare should be peered, in the interim, to suspend the opera-
Lieu of the Bank Charter, and remove suspense and uncer-
tainty amongst the mercantile interests. All the mischief
that bad been done was for the sake of convertibility. Had
they accomplished their designs? No such thing! He,
maintained we had no such thing as convertibility, and
what he would suggest was, that silver should be made the
standard as well as gold. He had never been an advocate
for tree trade, or connected with the Anti-corn Law League;
be had been a director of the Manchester Chamber of Com-
merce when that dangerous question was first muted there.
He opposed it, and he penisted in his opposition
I. it during the advocacy of it by the hon. gentleman the
member for the West Itidieg of Yorkshire Z(Mr. Cebdea).
He was still opposed to it ; but he thought, as the measure
bad passed, it ought now to have n fair trial. He did not attri-
bute our recent calamities to free-trade, but to the large and
necessarry importations of grain in 1846.
Sir W. CLAY should decidedly support the appointment
of the committee. With reference to the range of subjects
to be inquired into, he had no doubt that the good sense of
the committee themselves would limit that range within a
reasonable compass. At the same time he would caution
the horse and the country against expecting too much from the
inquiries and recommendations of the committee, or from the
legislation which might follow. Legislation upon these subjects
was rather valid to prevent evil than to originate good. It was
quite beyond the power of the legislature to add one single
pound to the capital of the country. The utmost it could do
was to take care that the country, io making use of a paper
currency, should not overstep the limits within which alone
the advantage of a paper currency might be safely used. The
point of the inquiry of the committee would be practically
this, whether the object of the act of 1814 had been desira-
ble; and secondly, whether that object had been attained.
It should be borne in mind that the framers and supporters
of that measure had never held it out as a menus that
would of necessity prevent fluctuations. Io his opinion, the
experience of the last year had afforded a most convincing
proof of the value of the measure of 1844 ; but the events of
the last twelvemonth had convinced him that something was
necessary to regulate the Bank's action.
Mr. MASTERMAN said he should not have risen ex-
cept for the remark that had fallen from the hen. member
for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W. Clay), as to the recent in-
terposition of government. He considered that the commit-
tee would be the proper place for discussing the causes of
the recent commercial disasters, but he was anxious now to
express his opinion that great credit was due to the govern-
ment for their recent interference, at a moment when, he be-
lieved, the country was never in a more dangerous state.
(Hear, hear.) The evil at that time was not so much a
want of money, as the belief that there was a want of it ; a
panic existed without any real cause. (Hear.) lie bad bad
the honour to form one of a deputation who waited on the
members of the government ; and though, in that interview,
he had advocated some relaxation, he had done so without
any wish to give room for fictitious issues. (Hear.) He
had never been favourable to the bill of 1844. At the time
it was proposed he bad expressed his opinion that no
one could say whether the authorised amount of
fourteen millions was sufficient; and that it might
be necessary to give the Bank power to issue beyond
that amount. (Hear.) From what was said by the right
hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he conceived he was
now convinced that that measure could not longer work
without some modification. If the committee was ap-
potated, its inquiries might occupy a long time ; and he
hoped that some resolution would be come to by the house
in the interim, giving the public confidence that the Bank
would be authorised to extend its issues if neuseery. (Hew.)
He begged again to thank the government for their timely
and valuable interference. (Hear.)
Mr. BLE WITT severely condemned the act of 1844. and
likened its operation to that of an " infernal machine." He
quoted from the speech of Sir R. Peel, iv proposing the act
of 1819, and contended that the right hon. baronet hail
contradicted his own principles in the act of 1844.
He felt disgust at the principles which had hems
prescribed to the Bank as their rule of action.
It would seem front the way the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer treated the matter, that they were first to be ruined
before they were to be saved. (A laugh.) When the letter
of the government was written, bad the potato crop emerged
from its rottenness, had the great houses anion from their
ashes, or had the foreign exchanges altered at the magical
bidding of Wood, the enchanter? (Renewed laughter.)
Not so! though happily now, if all did not go so merry as a
•massage bell, at least the bell that rang the knell of com-
merce had ceased to toll. (Ironical cheers and renewed
laughter.) But he was tiring the house. (Cries of " No,
no : go on.") Well, then, he would state his views on the
subject of convertibility and the standard (Hear, hear.)
What the gold standard was he was unable to:say ; but that
it was something of consequence in the opinion of the right
hon. hart. was clear from the fact that he would not have •
silver standard at any price. All people were entitled to de-
mand gold from the Bank of England at a certain price.
Why should we be obliged to buy gold, sot at its market
price, but at a price fixed upon it by the bullion broken ?
Suppose the Emperor of Russia were to take it into his head
to exchange his millions of gold for iron rails, or any other
product of this country, why there would be no demand for
gold at our fixed price, and it would have to lie in the
cellars of the Bank useless, except, perhaps, to minister to
the diseased fancies of the bullioniMs. (" Hear," and
laughter.) For his part, be could not conceive whence WON
the dread there was in this country of an export of gold.
He could see no reason why gold should not be made an
exchangeable commodity as well as anything else. When
our crops foiled we had real cause for dread, but what was
the use of shedding teen for the loss of bullion, which was
mere deem, and only useful as a medium of exchange. He
was Unions that an addition should be made to the subjects
for inquiry by the committee as to the operation of the act
of 1844, and he trusted that would be assisted to.
On the motion of the Marquis of GRANBY, the debate
was them adjourned.
RAILWAY BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice
that he should proceed with the Railway Bill at the meeting
of the house to-morrow.
The house adjourned at 12 o'clock.