The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-21 00:00:00

bly ; but, being • nonconformist, and being by birth, edu-
ration, observation, and conviction, fully eetablished in his
principles, he felt bound to protest against the policy and
principles of this measure. The real question before the
house had been skilfully kept out of sight by the right hon.
member for Edinburgh and the noble lord at the head of
the government that question was not whether the state
had the right or the power to interfere with education—not
whether it was secular education only with which it had •
right to interfere—but rather as to the object. tendency, and
effect of these minutes upon the position of the established
church and the di-seating bodies. If, an contended by the
right hon. member for Ealinlturgh, the right of government
to interfere was so undoubted, why had nu stateonan yet
been bold enough to attempt that interference ? II it was
the duty of the government to educate the people, it was
equally its duty to enforce their educirien. Vi'diese was the
line to he drawn ? (Hear) The noble lord at the head
~f the government had charged the dissenter. with support-
ing the committee of the privy coined in 1839, and opposing
it in 1847. True, many were then in favour of state in-
terference, hut they had had tome experience from 1839 to
1817. In 1839 the dimentera had regarded the institution of
the committee of council as an abatement of the power
which the church had wished to usurp, of being able to
educate all the people, and that all education ought to be
entrusted to her. But from 1839 to this time, no step had
been taken by the government which had not tended to
aggrandise the established church. In 1839 the noble lord
had proposed a schem • which, from the opposition of
the church and the Wesleyan., had been withdrawn. Is
1813 the late right honourable Secretary for the Home
Department had proposed • scheme in connexion with the
factory bill ; but as it gave undue power to the church. it
was opposed by the d "scoters, and withdrawn in consequence.
In 1847, the noble lord came forward with another scheme
which had the same defect, its object, tendency, and inevita-
ble result being to give enormous and increase f power to the
clergy of the estableshed church. It was a scheme of which
the dissenters could not strait themselves in accordance with
the principles by which they were dissenters; they were
therefore bound to step forward and protest against it, as
against the former schemes. No wonder they should con-
clude that it was dangerous to them as eimentin,g b dins, end
also to the civil liberty of the people, for government to inter-
fere with education, as it seemed they could not do so
without giving increased power to the already dominant
church. From the speeches of the right hon. member for
Edinburgh, and the noble lord who bad just sat down, it
might be supposed that voluntary effort had not only failed,
hut thee It had never attempted to succeed. If the voluntery
principle had succeeded in educating the people, few men
would say that any interference was desirable ; for no prin-
ciple was more certain than this,—that whatever a people
was able to do for itself, it was nut desirable that govern meat
should do for it. (Hear, hear.) It was not fair to say that
the voluntary principle had been tried ever sauce the htip-
tarchy ; it could only fairly be said to date from
1790 ; and even since that period some of the
most distinguished members of the church had opposed
the education of the common people. (Hear.) Fnim the
statistics produced on both aides, it appeared that from 1818
tei the present time, the progress et education had been
something extraordinary. In 1818 there were 674.000 das -
scholars in England and Wales; in 1833, there were
1,276,000; in 1847, 2,100,000; being, is 1818, one in
seventeen of the population; in 1833, one in eleven ; and iti
1847, one in eight. The population had increased only
forty-nine per cent. in this period, while the scholars in our
day•schools had at least increased 210 per cent. He agreed
with the noble lord who had lad ap hen that Sunday-school
education was not sufficient; but in speaking of
the destitution of education Sunday-schools ought
to be taken into account. In 1818 there were
477,000 Suedes, scholars ; in 1833, more than 1,500,00(1;
and there had Mace been a very rapid increase.
Within the last three or four year., the free church of Soot-
land had raised more than a million reeling, and had pro.
posed to build, or was budding, schools in 600 or 700
parishes. It anything was more honourable to the people
of Scotland in this generation than another, it was tee mag-
nanimous and wonderful effort which had 1/1011 made by the
members of that communion to establish for themselves •
church free from the trammels and embarrassments at-
tendant upon a connexion with the state. In Wales, seven
or eight years ago, not one of the 73 parishes in Angles.* in
which there were churches, had Sunday-schools connected
with them; whilut there were in the county 156 Sunday-
schools kept by the various denominations of die-
teeters. (Hear, hear.) In the six counties of North
Wales, 1,022 dinenter's places of worship had Sunday•
schools connected with them: the Calvinistic Methodists
had 479 schools; the Independents, 260 ; the Baptists.6l •
the Wesleyan', 202; altogether attended by about 140,000
children. In that part of the kingdom, the education of
the people had been altogether the work of tho dissenteis ;
not an bon. memb r from Wales, on whichever side of the
house he eat, could deny that something like nine out of ten
of the whole of the labouring classes in Wales, who had
received education within the last 50 years, hail received it
from the dissenting bodies. A COOlOll4lOll of inquiry was
now at work in Wales: he ventured to foretell that their
report would corroborate this to the utmost, and show, that
where the church had educated one child in Wales,
of late years the dissenters had educated eight or ten.
The noble Toni seemed to differ from the hon. gentleman the
member for Edinburgh. lie stated that he was of opinion
that the voluntary principle had done a great deal to pro-
mote schnois sufficient for the wants of the people. So that
they had the authority of the aohle lord to this effect,
that the voluntary system had provided schools in sufficient
abundance ; and now they asked fit power to improve the
quality of the education. Was it likely that a system which
had built up schools sufficient for the education of the people
should be now wanting in the eetality of the education ? He
did not think that the trade lord was very in-
genuous when he said that he could not under
stand why any dissenter should refuse to sup-
port this plan because it would educate and endow
persons connected with the Church of England. It
was not because members of the Church of England received
money that they objected: it was because the dissenters
themselves could not, in accordance with their own prin-
ciple., receive money for the education of their schools in
their own religion. That was the re won why they objected.
Great advantages would be confrihutid to the Church of
England schools,. and the nonconformist schools would labour
under great disadvantage*. The hon. gentleman, the mem-
ber for Edinburgh, did not speak with very great courtesy of
the dissenters and nonconformists. He heard him speak of
the braying at Exeter-Hall, and last night he spoke fre•
lineally of the clamour that was raised out of doors. (Cheers )
It was a very old story fur gentlemen in office to say, that
any opposition made out of doors against their plans won
clamour ; but he would ask, whether it was likely that 500
men from all pare of the country would come to London,
and take the trouble that they had door in opposition to
thin plan, notwithstanding all the obloquy that had been
heaped on them, if they did not believe teat there was some-
thing in the minutes which was injurious to them ; 11.111 i he
thought that the right hon. gentleman was the last person
who ought to say that this was only the clamour of an un-
reasonable elms of persons. He said that the noncon-
formists were abandoning the principles which were fill.
lowed by their leaders, and alluded to the doctrines
of Penn, Washington, and Jefferson, and to what the Mato
of Massachussets hail done. But he would like to ask
whether there was any analogy between the two countries ?
lied the state of Massachussets any state church ? Let them
give them, if they pleased, the same state of things as
existed in the United States and the state of Massachumem
—let them she them freedom from the trammels of a state
' church—let them make it popular if they ail!, and discon-
nect it with the state, and then they would find that the
nonconf irmeos would be as harmonious on the sues] et as
the various seen. in America were. When he heard them
accused of netting a clamour he, an one of them, begged
to say that he objected to the g verament mixing hold of
the fends of the country to endow the teachers of any sect,
or to endow the teachers of all. He thought that one wait
as bad 21 the other, though one was more politically unjust
than the other. They objected to receive the funds them-
'elves, and they found these minutes of the privy council to
he contrary to their principles. The government wised to
endow a system of education by which young persons should
be trained in certain religious tenets. In the church schools
there were 9,000 or 10,000 children who were to have the
catechism taught to them, and the holy scriptures and liturgy
read to them. The whole of ties was to be dose under
the cognizance of the clergymen of the parish, and the
inspectors to be appointed by the government, were to be
siso clergymen. The minutes did not say so, but by •
compact entered into between the government and the eerie-
seismical authorities, the latter would have the appointment
of the inspectors, and they had suds power over the govern-
ment, that if they did not like the inspector they could deo
oharge hire. lie admitted that this was only to be the cam
in Church of England schools. (Ironical cheers and
laughter.; The government would not dare to propose such
a plan for the dissenting schools, which wore not quire
so humiliated as the church schools. because they could
not carry it out. But if they could carry it oar,
the dissenting schools would not be free from intmee-
boa and examination by the clergy of the established
church, because by the comp act entered into by the govern-
ment the inspectors would be all eleritymiin of teat church.
He maintained that these clergymen were prone to meddle
with everything. They could examine the children, litter
fere with the teachers' bookie and could intent c riiticetes;
and he did not believe thst the clergy of that church
were not zealous enough to use all the means in
their power to iefhtence the children who attended these
sehnols. If there was anything wanted to show that this
measure was one which would he advanteg. pus to the church
of England, they had only to lo at the triumphant manner
in which the proposition was received by the clergy of that
church. There never yet was a measure passed against the
nonconformists at which they did not exult. • The lady
would nut be found favourable to this plan, for it would
place too much power in the hands of the clergy, and there
was nothina more hosti e to public liberty and the progress
of the country than giving to the priesthood any sorb power
over the people ; they bad power enough by the hulas
and the terrors of religion, and if they added to it bi
legislative en,ctmeats, thee would the niece tend to degrade
the people who wets subject to their influence. Atwitter
point which he alluded to was, the argument in I of
the impartiality of the scheme umil by the r ght lion geed.-
man the member for Edinburgh. If he 1 mked rev, r the
minutes already made, he would find the Let of 149,0001.
basing been during. the last three years disiribut ill he rh
privy enuncil committee, and out of that thelolll of 141,0007.
was received by the church. (Hear.) The die.enteis it may
he said could have the money if they ask it for it, bus
they did not separate from the establide'd church that they
should come whining fur money to support their religious
establishment. The nonconformist principle wee this, that

the government had no right to d. vote tit., public flitadt to
the purpows of religion. (Hem, hea...) The right hon.
gent'. m.o.' spoke of the impArtisiltte of the principle. but he
w .uld like to AA whether of the principle tit* et d twintt on. -
tenth of the pnpul 'Jinn with money 'or e lueution wt re two-
reed, hoer it would be received? It would be juot

as impartial where no state church existed, as it was
in this coentry. The (get was, that the dissenters
refused to take this money. It was very clear that any non-
conformist who took the smallest portion of it for the
purpose.* of his own religion. could never afterwards complain
of the domination and usurpation of the established church.
That was a point which the noble lord and the right bon.
gentleman did not look to. Here the government were
holding out large temptations to the dissenters to abandon
their principles, swift they did not succeed in inducing them
to do so, the established ceurch would have • great advan-
tsge, which would be unjust and unfair towards the noncon-
formist body. The noble lord who lets ceded him spoke of
the manner in which the Roman catholic* had been treated.
Now he would ask the Secretary for the Home Department
If he would answer this question? Had tfat committee of
privy. conned communicated with any of the authorities or
dignitaries of the Roman catholic chesrch with respect to the
lospeeturs or examiners of these public schools ? He feared
&et, if they hod, it followed of course that when the
utinutea were laid on the table it was the intention of her
Majesty's government to make grants to Roman catholic
seltools. There would be something noble and bold in their
owning forward to offer these advantages to all classes of the
people. (Cll. rs.) He had, on a former occasion, heard
members of that house attack dissenters for their bigotry
towards the Roman catholic population. The dissenters
seceded to whatever they asked, and they never denied
them their civil rights; for the Roman catholic members
would not have their seats in that house that moment
Au.. for the efforts which the dissenters made for obtaining
It :milt catholic emaaeipation. Every member of the united
kingdom ough, to he thankful to them fir having been in-
strumental in obtaining BO liberal a system of government.
His opinion was that, when tir.t the minutes were laid on the
table, the government int. nded to open these grants to
persons of all religious persuasions. The whole thing was
concocted, and it was supposed that the dissenters would take
tlee measure without asking • question, but then the
Weal. yare. proposed to join the dissenters against it, and it
was then feared. Tue government then entered into sego.
tiations with the former, and they were supposed to be under
the delusion that the Roman catholic* would not be in-
fluenced by this grant. This, perhaps, was in accordance
with the m ixim which lowed that the next pleasure
to cheating was that of being cheated. He would again
repeat that the noncontor.nista denied the right of
government to bestow, and refused to receive their offer.
They offered them that which win of no value to them, and
the church, being less scrupulous, received it. He wished
t impress* upon the house that this was not the period when
the apple of diecotl should he thrown into their political
ar. na—at a time when they should be employed wi h ques-
tions of far more vital imptalAnce which the ablest statesmen
of Europe could nut solve. (Hear, hear.) He trusted th.t
if he used any expressions against the church which
might be considered warm, the house would remember
that from the commencement he avowed himself to
be a member of a neeconformist body ; and that

his (mei ahem languished in prison under the direction
of that establishment which they were now asked to sg-
eghraunndhiee.,hanichd thheati wast was fresh fereshlaibiint
,hdis tkithude little
bt„n
within the last two year* stripped of its furniture to pay the
fmreeqmueoiraifinthga,
salary of the Church of England clergyman of that parish.
It was impossible for him, looking back to the history of
that church. and rotting that it had been hostile at all times
to the progress of public liberty, not to protest in the
strongest mariner potently. against the outrage now about to
be perpetrated by the government on the nonconformists of
this country, in adding to the aggrandisement of a political
and mischievous institution, which he expected to see this
country some day rid itself of. (Cheers.)
Sir f. GREY said that nobody could regret more than
he did that the elements of angry discussion should have
been introduced into the present debate; but, notwithstand-
ing the difference of opinion entertained by different bodies
and different individuals on this question--notwithsrending
the difficulties which had to be met in dealing with this
subject, he joined in the satudaction which now seemed coati-
timely to be felt in hearing no more of those fears and ap-
prehensions which, at • former period of the history of this
country, were entertained and expressed as to the dangers
to be apprehended from as extension of knowledge and the
means of i..atruction among the lower classes of the people.
No fears, he was happy to find. now prevailed, that the in-
stitutions of the country would be endangered by the adop-
tion of the widest engine of popular instruction. (Hear.) The
hon. member who had just spoken had contended that
it was not the duty of the government of this country to
educate the people—he had argued that this was a matter
which ought to be left to voluntary exertions, and he had
sahmitteo as a fact that none of the greatest.stateemen of
this country had ever attempted such an object. lie (Sir
G. Grey) feared the hon. member was not as well read in
the modern history of his country as he ought to be. (Hear,
mad a laugh.) It the hon. member would look back even
for the very few years that be had been in parliament, he
would find that this was not the first occasion upon which
great statesmen had endeavoured to lend their aid to effect
the removal of popular ignorance and to raise in its stead
sound knowledge, effected by the general education of the
people. This effort was made forty years ago by one whose
memory, on more grounds than one, he (Sir G. Grey) must
ever hold most dear—he alluded to the late Mr. Whitbread
—(hear, hear) —who, in reference to parochial schools,
lenient by the aid of public money, to lay the foundation of
an improved system of popular education. The bill he intro-
duced for that objet received the hearty support
of another distinguished and not lees celebrated
meenb r 1 this house in those days—he meant the late Sir
Samuel Romilly. (Hear, hear.) The measure so introduced
and supported was paned by this house in opposition to sues
arguments as those to which be had already adverted, but
which h toed), were now no longer heard; but unfortunately
the bill wee lost in the other house, owing to the prevalence
of thuae apprehensions which happily had a ter wholly
vanished. (Hear, hear.) If the elements of discord had
entered into the present debate, of a certainty the govern-
ment were not answerable for it. (Hear, near.) Those
elements condeted of assertions made out of the house, but
echo d within its walla by one hon. gentleman (Mr. I'.
Dunconthe) last night, anu of which the hon. member for
Durham (Mr. Bright) was this evening the open, manly,
and avowed advocate. (Hear, hear) The hen. and learned
member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had amused his (Sir G
Grey's) right bon. friend the member for Edinburgh
(Mr. Mac iulay) with wasting his talcum in arguing a matter
upon which, as the hon. and learned member said,
all were agreed—namely, the duty of the government to
educate the people. To-night the hon. member for Cocker-
raeuth (Mr. Aglionhy) had made toe same admission, and
no doubt seemed to be entertained upon the point until the
bon, member fur Durham (Mr. Bright) declared that it
was inconsistent with the principles of the nonconformist.
that they should accept money from the state for educa-
tional purposes. The hon. ma tuber said that he was him-
self a nenconformist, because he would not receive or parti-
cipate in public money voted for public instruction. If the
hon, member urged these an the principles which actuate
the nonconformist, he (Sir G. Grey) must request the hon.
member to read again the history of hit country before he
pretended to enlighten the British parliament upon the sub-
ject. (Hear, hear.) If the principles advanced by the
honourable member were those of the nonconformists
of 1847, what had been the principles of the
must distinguished of the nonconformists of former
days of men whose names were identified with
E gliab history, whose liven and sufferings were Was
and
parcel of the cause which they had espoused ? Was the
hon. member aware that Baxter, Oliver, Heywood, and
other eminent leaden of the nonconformists were in favor
of public endowments? and that it was notorious they
entertained no objection to participate in grants of public
money for the purposes of education, but that it was the
act of uniformity which had intervened and had inflicted on
the church injuries from which she had scarcely yet reco-
vered? (heer, bear.) The hon. member for Nottingham
( Ur. Gieburne), alluding to the speech of his right hon friend
the member for Edinburgh, seemed to think he hod estab-
bliothed a reds do ad absurdum, inasmuch to the reasoning
of the right non. gentleman mieh• as the hon. member con-
tended, he applied as well to the Church establishment as to
general education. H (Sir George Grey), could not think
it was a reductio ad absurdum if the duty of the govern-
ment to educate the people was admitted. In America
it had been *hewn by his right honourable friend that
separate grants had been made for educational purnoses.
Therefore, with respect to the duty of a government to edu-
cate the people, the hon. mender for Durham was in error,
and moil he spoke it was diffi ult to discover any tangible
ground of opposition to this measure. But apart from hie
speech, what had the hon. member done to-night? He
hod presented a petition, to which he attached the greats et
weight, because he believed it represented the opinion which
actuated the principal opponents of the measure. The peti-
tion was before Into, and it emanated from a conference be-
tween more than 500 gentleant n assembled at Crosby-hall,
in the city of London, on tne 14th of the premed month of
April, and it stated " that in the judgment of this confe-
rence, the unsatisfactory i sue of the efforts which succee
viva governnsenta had made to extend their patron-
age of public eduction, mast be held to demon-
*trate the impossibility of their d lag so with either
henefit or osfety, and to afford decisive practical evidence in
support of a principle obit+ has already found strenuous
advocates, cud which this conference now avows—namely,
that it is not within the province of government to educate
the people." Such was the petition. and thouth the hon.
memberaerem'nmot"i ttelflmeisat-nritlnykavfamtrn'elhinisthoewpen pre,
dstiplrlei-f
they
aerated hr (Sir G. Grey) would advise him to take one or two
of a series of reeolutioe• tooled at a meeting h Id in St.
George-street Chapel, Liverpool, over which Dr. Baffles had
presided. The Not of these reso'setions was to the effect
that voluntary effort. went sufficient to supply all the educa-
tional wattle; and the next aleclanel that the meeting re-
model the Mu rbreect of thegoeernment with the education
of the people as wholly unneemsery, as wrong in prin-
ciple, at variance with :sound policy. and calculated
—in the present excited 1,14 tr of parties —to produce
serious evils; and, therefore, the meeting could not but
consider that the stem taken in that direction by the legisla-
ture were in error, and ought to he corrected." Now, with
reelect to this second rrs Intl ea, though he oelieved it to he
uretecato try to argue a question which was jitenersely con-
cod. al it, th:a hotter, he must express his conviction that on a
question of such magnitude no the sound education of the
people, the government ought not to stand aloof. It wan
edinfted that the moral and intellectual improvement of the
people was the loot preventative of crime • and with that ad-
Inioion, coupled with the declaration 0 a most celebrated
noncenfertni•t, Ito art Ilall, in favour of the education of
the people, he co.itendrd that the of of the government
might to Its till ,luleavour, without int. rfering with the rights
of console ice, to devise, to foster, and to encourage the means.
best e slculeted to promote an end so pregnant with the best
interest. of the ton r ry On this point the hon. member fur
Nottingham h id admitted the novelty of his Tires. Ile
I not st dol that the g .vernm• tat ball no right to .11111.0.1. that
Ithere would lie ouy groat otjectiam t tom de of 'mole' money
f• or the autp..t, of ...loeciti no. 'ruin wee true. I. anakiee ot
the preoeut pardansent, as now constituted, what grounds

ha I the government for supposing that sum% • grant would
be objected to. In February, 1843, Lord Aehley moved ad
&Mises to the crown, to take into considereemn the best
means of devising and securing to the people the bit mimes of
• mural and religious education. That moron WAS ?receded
by an able speech from the noble lord, in which, by flume-
roue ptaistics, he showed the deficiency of the existing means
of education ; and loundid, by the terms of his minion, as
iaference that it was the duty of the government to ded with
the evil. Hew had that motion is, n me'? 'fbe neer
hon. baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) then at the head of
the government, met it by expressing his corded
concurrence in its general object, sad toe noble led
now at the head of attar; (bird J. 'tuna) sp tk- in
similar sense. The motiun was uusnirnously adopted by the
!mum. The hoa. member for Durham was not a men*r
at the time, or if he had ne wool I have stood alone ; and if I
division had taken place, it would not have been poeihle to
have found two tellers. Since tee hen. member had been
returned, another motion of a similar character, thuueh con-
fined to the principality of Wales, had been brought fereeed
iv the boo. member for Coventry (Mr. W. Williems), and
that proposition had received the sanction of the house; red
the hon. member for Durham, though a aunconfornest, had
not ohj, cted to it. He (Sir G. eery) did not wish to multiply
authorities on this question, but he mast mention that of R obi
Hall, who had described the parochial schools o' Sc Seed As
the source of the superior character, energy, and deposition
of tLe people of that couriers, and who aided that it aced
could enter into the head of any men to met ep away those
school., because they were iecunsistent with the ltherti. s and
independence of the population. He avocet elm quote from
the Leeds Mercury, of the 18th March, 184:3, a leading ern:
de in favouruf factory education, and suggesting the ate.
blisbment by the government of two schools is large
meuutacturing town, and on the principle of the notion.'
schools ; and the other in those of the B itch sm.! For. ign
Schools Society—an article which would not he presumed
have been inserted in that journal except with the appreine
tion of the ablest of the opponents of the government on this
subject—he meant Mr. E. Baines, Jun. (Hear, her,
The hon. member had shod d to the cane of the free ceureh
of Scotland, but if he quoted that church as opposed to
government grants for education he was totally mis.
taken and ignorant as to the view, of that
church on this subject. Could it be doubted that
education of the people was loudly denauded.—
If we looked not only to Leeds but to Wesetuieser, and
nearer at home, a most lamentable want of education would
be found. Every day hrought to light new testes of ignn.
ranee and vice on the partial Slum woo e ited hurley he held
respoasiele lor their crimes. inasmuch as their m ids were
not formed on the only principle which could he a true pre-
servative treat crime. He (Sir G. Grey) thought he might
assume that education was a good, and that it w e a suhjed
with which the government was b ittnil to co .erna
The noble lord (Lord Merpeth) had sail that Mere
were three courses •open to the government, but he
thought there were only two. lie del nut believe
it would be possible for any government to propose
that the education of the people ghoul.' be platted entirely in
the hands of the established church ; the two eeursts then
open to the government were, the course pr posed by the
hon. aad learned member fur Batb, and the COWIIP that had
been adopted. The one was to estaulish entirely • new
system of education, disregarding the divainns in the coun-
try upon matters of religion, d sregerding the echoed, estate
blashed in connection with dilll rent denominations, and en-
deavuuring to bring all the children together into one system
of education, by which they could grew up in harmony,
peace, and good will. Such a plan would he impreeieehlc ;
it would meet with no cordial acceptance by eny one
denomination of christians, or by that hou.e. He
agreed with the honourable member for Nottingham,
that the earnest religious feeling of the people of this coun-
try would oppose an absolute but to cemb tied educat on, be-
cause it could only be effected by the exclusion of all re.
ligion. (Hear, hear.) He knew that all did not intend to
exclude religion from their imbeds, but thought it might be
introduced through different religious teachers ; such a pro.
position would nut, however, have diminished one iota of the
opposition. (Hear, hear.) Then, what was the other plan
proposed and acted on by the government The principle
on which the measure, it he might so tents it, was framed,
was not to establish soy new system, but to improve
the present schools—the government proposed to rose the
character of the education that is given iu existing eehoole
and improve the position of, and raise the standard of se-
quiremeet in, the ectesolino-ters. What had been done
during the last few years. since parliament hail moved to
grant m .ney for the purposes of education ? These grants
had been applied for the peptise of building 'wheels in cou-
flexion with the various denominations, and that b. ing the
case, the government thought it time to consider h th- chi-
, ratter and quality of education might h- raised in there
schools without endeavouring to supereede the existing agent
at work in any of them. Tne hon, member for N•vitiebem
had said that the plan proposed to direct and centred
education, but, on the contrary, it propoesd only to exist the
voluntary education of the people. It might he more 41e.
simile to see greater union among diffetent classes of reli-
gionist,; but he thought they would
.Ins beginning at the
wrong end, if, while they sass the preiudice of the pe
they waited until it was removed. The better way of de
tainting more conformity of feeling would he to educate the
people first, and trust to the results for the removal of what
they might please to term prejudice. The question to be
asked was, what was the best thing to be done und. r exist-
ing circumstances. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend had
stated that he did not propose it as a eerfeet ma
sure; but he said it was part of the ext. nded oysters
going on in the country—the government was feeling its
way. It it had been presented as a perfect plan, he (Sir IL
Grey) should hove been unable to defend it; but under all
the circumstances of the country, and looking bock to the
differences of feeling on the subject, he th tight it seta the
only plan that could be proposed at present. And what
were t e objections urged to it? One was, that the c dechisen
and liturgy would be enforced by law ; he, however, denied
it. The government had merely taken the exiting ached'
as they were and they merely propeeed to infuse. life and
energy into them, leave)); the instruction giveu in them
untouched. The noble member fir Liverpool had
said he was anxious to see a less rigid enrorce-
ment of the catechism in the church schools, the national
schools, and he (Sir G. Grey) believed that in misty of them
the good sense of the clergy induced them to refrain from
teaching the church catechism to the children of dissenters.
A letter which be had yesterday received from a clergyman
in the north, living in an extensive parish near the border,
stated that such was his practice in reference to the
children of presbyterians. It had also been timed against
the measure that the inspectors who were to insp. et dissent,
ing schools mast be approved of by the Archbishop; but
such a statement was utterly absurd and inconceiv-
able. It was further alleged that it would destroy the
numerous educational establishments. fie would only
notice such an objection by saying that the object was, on
the contrary, to encourage those educational establishments,
and to give to some of them in a declining st ate new life and
vigour. (Rear, hear.) A pamphlet written by a gentleness
long connected with the British and For. ign School Soc'ety,
in his individual capacity, and who had had the experience
.if many years in the case of education in conned in with
the dissenting bodies stated that the assistance which
the government plan would afford to the schools weuld
be productive of the grestest benefits to tee commu-
nity, tending to the improvement of elementary educ lion,
and facilitating all subsequent endeavours for to edvencement.
He also said that the measure in no de ree favoured the
established church and that the whole measure would he,
even in rural districts, f rourable to protestant noncon-
tormists rather than otherwise. (Hear, hear.) As to the
extension of government influence, he would pees that over
for it had been justly ridiculed in that house, and he toped
they should hear such statement to more out of ie. Vs had
next been objected that the terms offered to the church were
more desirable than to dissenters—it had been said with
reference to plat granta, that the greaterportine or them had
gone into the hand, of the church, and he was inc.:fitted to think
that muck of the objection made to the continuance of this
system arose from this result. Nothing could be sill as to
the impartiality of the system on which the ratite were
administered, but the members of the churh greatly . xe• edei
the d.ssenters and it must follow that the application foe
schools would be gr, ater from the church than from dimes.
ices. (Hear, hear.) In addition to this there but been is
many instances an objection on the part of dissenters to re-
ceive them grants. Upon the subject of the R nnan cadea
lies, he was bound to admit, and he did it with great sin-
cerity, that there was just ground of complaint. (Hear,
hear) He admitted there were parts of chi: country—fie
instance, the town of Manchester—in which there were •
vast number of Roman catholic., and in which, by law, tht
children were compelled to go to school as a condition of
fact ry labour, and it was a hardship of which they hid a
right to complain that they were excluded fn**
the grants for education. After twit); li•tened
with talesman) to the speech of his noble friend behind him,
his desire to remove t rose objections was strengthened ; but
it was not a difficulty seining from those mlnutts—there use
no more money voted this year than lase. The esthetics
were not excluded by name; and he did not kno• of more
than one district from which an application had been malt
for a grant to a Raman catholic school. It was certainly a
rule that there should be the daily use of the ecripturm i 2
the schools, and although there seemed to be a daub[
whether it was to be the authorised version or not, he was
sure the committee of council who proposed the minute ie.
tended that it should be the authorised veision; rod
either of the committees of council hail, without corning tear
parliament and announcing their intention, put nny
constructi to on the terms used, they would hove bra liable
to the imputation which had been thrown upon the present
government, namely, that they had acted without authority.
There was, therefore, to new grievance against the Rower
wholes. Ile (Sir ill, Grey) however rejoiced 'that the see'
ject had been brought before the house, and he had ad
heard any one member assert that the Raman esthetics
should be excluded front the benefit of the grant. But a
government must always defer to public fedi g in • great
degree. There were many persons in this country who
le led with apprehension at measures which were in favour
of It 'man catholies, and r. girded with apprehension any
extension of their principles; and he conlmsed he was him-
self not free from them. Still he would nut be a petty to.
unfair treatment of any body of persons, however he might
differ from them. (Hear, hear.) If the house voted
(pante for educatien, he thought that the Rest*
catholies should participate in them,—(h. ar)—no one lordd
more rejoice than he should to see the difficu ti. s which
wed
in the way of their participating in them removed, end he
would ch. erfulty co-operate with his noble friend in framer
minutes which would enable them so to partieipate where!f!
they ware collected in such large numbers as to come wire!in
the special eircumetences originally intended to he met by
the government. Ile had nut touched on the derail• of the
measure, for so little had been said in opposition to thee;
so little had been mid except as to the imperfection of
_Tett
Alen, an to its not going far ehougn, and its tot being a fi
l
ineestire, that he wooed not be justified in occule tee ibe
hon. members who had made objections to it, or who *
time of the house in replying to the obserestioes of these"