The Express.
London, England, 1853-07-30 00:00:00

PUBLIC BUSINESS.

distinct and separate subjects bad been introduced to the
notice of the committee, which it was renesaary that be
should touch upon. Two of these subjects would hereafter
demand a fuller consideration than he could now give to
them ; but the third, which related more immediately to
the resolutions under discussion. lay in a much *sneerer
scope. The two other subjects, however, which had re-
ference to the merits or demerit., as the ease might be. of
an act of parliament paned at an early period of the pre-
sent session, extended no doubt to matters of far ;greater
eonsrquence, but with only • partial and limited khow-
ledge of the circumstances attending them they
could nut give it that full discussion which its
importance demanded, much iris form an opinion
upon it. Still it was necessary that he should inci-
dentally touch upon these two ether subjects; but fiat,
with regard to the prevent resolution.' it appeared from the
speech of the right hon. gentleman, the member for Buck-
inghamshire. as well as that of the hon. gentleman, the
member for Stockport, that the main objection to them was
this. It was said that they ought not to resuscitate a plan
which had become defunct by ME ring new terms for the
commutation of stock to parties who having already hell the
offer made to them laid not thought fit to avail themselves
of it, but there was no attempt ma& by these resolutions to
resuscitate the former proposal. There was no intention
nor proposition upon the table of the b• tas. for
offering to the holden of stock a power of cAninutation
which an act of parliament passed this session invested
them with, hut which they had declined to Avail them-
selves of. (Hear, hear.) He was desirous that this point
should be dis'inctly undentood, both by the committee and
by parties out of doors, not that the enurement hid done
anything to create an errone sus impression on the subject;
but the speeches of some hon. nembers were calculetea to
do s', and for that reams he was most anxious the• the
misapprehension to which he was referring should be en-
tirely ;oat an end to. It should be distinctly understood,
then, that it was not the individuals who had the option
offered to them by the act of the present session, to whom
the offer was now prepared to be made. Some of the
statements which bad been made upon these resolutions
had greatly surprised him,becanse a slight inspection of the
letter of these resolutions would show that there was no
foundation for them. It was stated, for instance, that hea
proposed to take power to make arrangements with these
parties for an unlimited time, but it would be seen from the
!mintage of the resolutions that the power was only to be
'aten for • limited period. The course taken by these
resolutions was precisely the same as that which former pre-
cedents suggested. and nu doubt this misapprehension
had arisen from their being over-crowded with formal state-
ments which rcuilered them much less yeadahle and int I.
ligible th in they would have been if they had been left ant.
In point of fact, the meauirg of the second resole. I
then was simply this, vise that certain parties being
holders of South Sea Stuck, but being diequalthed
by law from taking advantage of the late act of parliament, j
had now an O'er made to them, analogous as far as it
could be, considering the change of circumstances in the
time, to the ofFr that was made to the other stockhol•li es.
That was the true meaning of the second resolution ; but the
hon. and learned gentleman, the member for lk,
com-
plaine that the power of commutation was given to the
South Sea Company as a body, and not to the particular
individuals whom the resolution declared to be the exclusive
objects of the proposal. The honourable and learned
gentleman's professional experience, however, ought to
have suggested to him what the law officers of the
crown had declared to him, that in the case of an
incorporated compaey it would he difficult for the house to
establish direct relations with individuals who were mem-
bers of the company. The terms of the resolution in this
respect, th• n, hero meet the legal technicalities of the case ;
but if it were thought to be necessary—which be confessed he
did not think it was—a change might be made in the resin
'alien to meet this objection. On the wholerhowever, he
thought the resolutions were sufficiently clear and intelli-
gible as they stood. The South Sca Company would not
have power to move in the matter without the Consent of
the parties themselves, and although ho could insert
words to that effect in the resolution without inconve-
niently adding to its length, he thought the committee'
might for the moment rest satisfied with the assurance
which he gave them, and leave the objections to he
finally disposed of in the bill which was to be
hereafter brought in. (Hear, hear.) Well, then
swim it was said yesterday that the power which was
asked by this resolution on behalf of the Treasury was un-
precedented, because it was unlimited. He confessed he
listened to that statement with a good deal of surprise, be-
eline it must be perfectly obvious to any one that a certain
amount of discretion must be reposed in the Treasury, or
the Finance Minister, in matters of this kind. With regard
to the disposition of the public money, parliament was in
the habit of reposing such confidence in the minister for
the time being, and, in his opinion, parliament did
not do • rong by doing so; for whereas, while
the minister exercised the discretion with strict pro-
priety, it greatly benefited the public, on the other
hand, if he abused it, he was yet answerable to parliament
for such abuse. (Hear, bear.) But he had neither the in- I
tention nor the desire to go be and the limit which the law I
prescribed in this respect; and what he asked in the present I
instance was that certain portions ol South Sea Stock should
be converted into a Three-and-u Quarter per cent. stock ;
the amount which it was contemplated would be thus ex- • I
changed not being more than two millions sterling. The
committee might perhaps wish to limit the power of con
Ii
-
version to this amount ; well, if the committee strongly de- I
sired it, he should offer no decided objection to such a pro-
ceeding ; but, at the same time, ho did not think it would
be an advantage to the public interest that such ;
a limitation should be made. Let the committee
remember that the discretion he was now ask-
ing I I
for war insignificant in comparison with the t'
power which he already ecjoy ed as finance minister, for at j I
the present moment, by a vote of the committee of the '
whole house he had the power of disbursing 30,000,0001.
of public obligations under the name of Exchequer Bonds.
That was a power which the Treasury enjoyed under an
act of parliament, while, under a recent statute, it was
likewise in the power of the Treasury to saddle the public
with the payment of additional inters st upon these /Lithe-
quer Bonds, and this power the legislature did not hesitate
to renew from year to year with regard to Exchequer Bills. I
What power bad parliament given the Treasury this year I
in the ease of Exchequer Bills ? Why, it had authorised
tits T ry to raise 17,000,0001. of Exchequer Bills, to '
wry interest at the rate of one and a half per cent.;
but it had placed no limit or control upon
the Treasury with reference to the repayment of these I
bills, on the contrary parliament had given the Treasury
power to raise the interest to three per cent. At this mo-
ment the interest paid upon 14,000,0001., some odd Exche-
quer Balls amounted to 210,0001, but it was in the power
of the Treasury so to raise the rate of interest as to make
the total amount 630,0001. instead of 210,0001., and he
thought these facts, with others which he could mention
if there was time, pretty eonclusive ground that parliament
was accustomed to proceed in iti financial legislation upon
the assumption that a large and permanent discretion was
to be left in the hands of the executive. Still,
if the committee felt that it would be impossible
to pass these resolutions without fixing the limit
to which the discretion of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer should extend, he would not say positively that
he would resist it, but In should urge upon the committee
that, considering the insignificance of the amount at stake,
it would be much better to leave the power of the finance
minister unfettered in any way, as it had hitherto been the
habitual custom of parliament in all similar cases. (Hear,
hear.) It was stated yesterday that this was no party
question and an intimation was given by an bon. gentle-
man behind him that on that account he should exercise his
own option and vote against the resolutions which had been
proposed. The hon. gentleman seined at that conclusion
from an erroneous impression of the object of then resolu-
tions. The bon. gentleman seemed to think that the
object of the resolution was to resuscitate the former offe • ;
but now that that erroneous impression had been removed, he
born the hon. gentleman would experience no difficulty
In eseoasidering the determination which he had come to.
(Hear, bear.) The right hon. gentleman the member for
Buckinghamshire had, however. given en entirely different
diaareter to this discussion. That right hon. gentleman
Won his objection to the resolutions, not on the same
ground as that of the hon. member to whom he had just
referred, but upon the incompetency of the government to
deal with financial questions. That was a challenge which
the right hon. gentleman had frankly given. That was
the issue which the right hen. gentleman had raised, and
upon that issue he was perfectly content to be tried. If
that was the point which the 7 had arrived at, no
man was less disposed to flinch from trying it
than himself. If that should be the opinion of
the House of Commons, no man would be more de-
sirous than himself that they should peened to make a
better arrangement, by calling in the aid of a more efficient
administration- (near, hear.) Hiving noticed—briefly
he admitted—these objections to the resolutions, he next
proceeded to urge the reasons why it appeared to him the
committee should adopt these resolutions more as a matter of
compulsory justice, than of expediency. He could not, con-
sistently with his duty, and would not—he said it with re-
spect—enter into any defence of the government, or of the
results of the scheme, whatever amount of attack he might
be subject. d to from the nigh hon. gentlemen opposite ; be-
cause he was convinced that to du so at the present moment,
when those results could not possibly be judged of, would
be prejudicial to the public interest He would say, how-
ever, that he anticipated no difficulty : and, so far as he
might presume at the present time, and from present pro-
spects—supposiog no estraordinery circumstances to happen
in the interval—he was confident he should have no diffi-
culty in meeting the demands which would be made in
January and April under this op, ration. But he had
never pretended to the character of a prophet—he was
not the master of the ele.nenta, nor was he gifted
with second sight—he could not control the course
of events, nor would he presume to strike out • course eon- I
trary to that which had ben pursued by former ministers I
in former times—he was content to work in the way of ,
tradition and precedent, and alien he could net do great
things for the public he was content to do small things. It
might reem a humiliating confession, but he e oald not say
what might be the results of the coming harvest, or what
quantity of corn might have to be imported from abroad.
This he knew, that they had four millions of bullion less
now in the Bank of England than they had twelve months
ago, and he could not say how much of that might have to
go to pay for that corn. The right honourable gentle-
mail concluded a long speech by summing uo his argu-
ment as follows:—He had shown the different ele-
ments to be taken into consideration in forming an op':
Ilion as to the success of the geverninent plan—he had
shown that the convenience of the South Sea Stock, the
ewe of the tisane.., and the state of the unfunded debt,
also sto•••1 in intimate relation with each other, and that
judgment oar the success of
they could n d form a correct
this limited operation until it was Heathy completed next
year; but, with regard to the attack made by the right
hon. gentleman in reference to the unfunded debt, he said

ALLEGED CRUELTY IN-A-I%'oRKHOUSE..

Mr. iiiSicoiiiii.;iseediowiti;TWid:.t4 the
Poor Law Board, whether his attention has been called to
• petition recently presented to this house, complaining of
the cruel treatment of paupers in Lewisham workhouse!
Mr. BAINES said the petition in question came from a
person named William Richard Cook, who stated that in
the summer of 1850 and 1851, ho was an inmate of Lewis-
ham Workhouse, and while there he saw "seers' assaults
committed by the master upon some of the inmates. In
July, l&il, Cook tent a letter to the Poor Law Board,
stating that he had witnessed an asmult upon a person
',mod Day, and that was one of the eases complained of in
the present petition. This letter was referred to the
guardians, who were an extremely careful and respectable
body of gentlemen, and within a week afterwards they re-
turned an answer stating that the accusations made b
Cook were totally false. Nothing more was heard of Cook
from that time until September, 18.52, when the late govern-
meat being in office he sent a letter to his (Mr. Baines)
right hon. predecessor complaining of the same facts, and
some others which he had not stated in his former com-
munication, but the right ham. gentleman, considering the
character of the man, and the lapse of time which bad
taken plate since the alleged assaults were said to have
been committed, declined to institute any formal investi-
gation into the 'complaint. When he came into office at the
beginning of the present year, Cook renewed his complaints,
but for the same reasons which actuated his right hem. pre-
decessor, be also declined to move in the matter.

THE CAB STRIKE.
Sit D. NORREYS seeing the hon. gentleman, the Under
Seattary of State for the Home Department, in his plea,
wis►ed to ask him a question on the subject of the cab
strike. Would it not be better in the existing stets of
things for the hon. gentleman to ask:the house this even-
ing to suspend the handing orders, for the purpose of
passing • temporary set to enable the Commissionen of
Police to license, temporarily, any di:ecliptics of vehicle,
no matter whether cart or caravan, to ply fur hire in the
streets while the strike lasted.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, al-
though the question of the cab-omen* under the department
of the House Oliice, yet, as the licenses, forming a part of
the revenue, came within his own immediate depart-
ment, he might, perhaps, he allowed to answer the
question. (Hear, hear.) Certaiely, then, as far as be
was concerned, he thought it was quite unneeessa7 to
Introduce any such bill as that which the boo. biro-
set Imo suggested, while he felt that it would ;be
rather going beyond the occasion if they were to suspend
the standing orders on a subjc et like this. (A laugh.) The
question of licenses or of allowing cabs, or carriages, or
vehicles of any sort to ply for him is the streets was pecu-
liarly a matter which concerned the revenue ; and the die-
',mhos or duty of enforcing or administering the law along
with all other revenue laws rested entirely with the execu-
tive government. That power was vested in them by im-
memorial custom ; nay, he might go further, and say that
it belonged to them by prerogative, subject of course to the
responsibility of answering to the house for the manner in
which they exercised it. (Rear, hear.) The whole ques-
tion, therefore, of granting licenses was in the discretion of
the government, and he thought it would be better
:f tt.: house, even on this occasion, would consent to leave it
there. As far then as the ministerial means were concerned,
he did not think there would be any practical impedimett.
in the way of granting new licenses, and he hoped that ad-
mission would be a satisfactory answer to the honourable
baronet. (Hear, hear.)
SOUTH SSA ANNUITANTS DISSENTIENTS.
. . . . .

Sir i. KELLY wished to ask ..he right hon. gentleman,
the Chancellor of he Exchequer, whether it wee the in-
tention of the government to purchase stock, or to create a
new Thres-and-a-Quartrr per Cent. Stock for the purpose
of carrying out these resolutions, and, if the latter, to what
extent would it be projoard to inerease the capital debt.
While upon this subject ho wished ►lso to know in what
relation the holders whose stock was invested in the names
of the Accountants-General of the Court of Chancery and
the Court of Bankruptcy, stood toward the South Sea

Compare
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER atil with
respect to the tint question, it was proposed that the com-
mutation should be effected by the creation of new stock ;
but the increase oh.ch this new creation would cause to
the national debt would be so small that it was hardly
worth while speaking about it. With regard to tie second
question, he apprehended it was a question of law, which
be was not well able to answer at the present moment;
but I,e thought the Accountants-General, as trustee., stood
in the relation of partners to the South Sea Company;
and therefore the parties to whom the stock Rally b.:longed
could have no legal right, as partners of -he South Sea
Cot open y.
The committee on the nso!utions was then resumed,
when
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed

that in introclueieg these rtsolutions yesterday to the notice
of the house, fur two reasons be confined himself in the

comments th.at he made strictlyt; the teat of the resolu-
tions themselves. (hie of those reasons wel, that at the
present period o: the seuine and in the pretest state of the
public business, be was r•.; willing, without necessity, to
occupy the time of the al/emitter, and Cart by contribute
tot • prnbegation of a session which hld alreatly been
winos/11y long and laborisus; awl the other reason was,
th.t tit Ins juilgtut.nt the time bu, a full di-cuisine of the
ritesion bad not yet wrist d ; I•ut the spetet • which Wen
sule.equentty mad, gave a mach ihrg..r 'sotto to the sub-
ject, rail had impaled epos bins the necessity of trcubling
the e 'annum, with matters which he did not feel called upon
to introduce into his opening addroie. le point of fact, ti.reo

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 30, 1853

that the results, so far as they had gone, had been favour-
able, and were attended with permanent benefit. The
question new before them was, as to the adoption of the
second resolution ; and a very limited question it was—it
was simply whether they should arer to persons who were
now by law disqualified from accepting the commutation of
stook and the act of perliemeut, and empower the govern-
ment. to a limited extent of the capital involved, to make
an offer to these parties to commute. (Hear, bear.)
Sir F. KELLY urged that unless the resolution was
framed in some other way it would be a dead letter. The
proposed commutation was an act of great injustice to
those persons who were bolder' of stock, and had not
accepted the option given them by the act of the present
session.
Mr. J. B. SMITH objected to the second resolution.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY could not understand what clan
of persons had not had an opportunity of availing them-
selves of the option given by the act of this session.
Mr. GLYN—if he could agree with the hon. member for
Stockport that this was a new offer to the parties concerned
—would have taken the some line as the hon. gentleman.
But the words of the resolution—if they meant anything—
meant that the parties to be benefited were those wh^, by
some oversight when the act of this session passed, bad not
been given the power to accept the option offered.
Mr. SPOONER directed atteatioa t) a curious bill now
passing through the house, with reward to which the com-
mittee ought to have some information. Although in fact
a public bill, it bad been introduced as a Ninth) bill, and
the standing orders had been suspended, in order to pass it
most rapidly, and without its attracting any notice, until it
now stood for the third reading, and yet it gave to the South
Sea Company. the some powers of commutation a. those
which were gisenln the bill now proposed. He hoped he
should hear by whom, red under whose patronoße, the bill
had b.en brought in. There could be no doubt that the
provisions of this bill were like the provisions asked for by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer under other hills. lie
saw that the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. Wilson)
was apparently greatly amused (Mr. Wilson was laughing);
but he (Mr. Spooner) wanted information, not sneers.
Mr. WILSON explained in order to relieve the hon. gen-
tlernan's uneasiness. It was a private bill unconnected
altogether with the government, and brought in merely for
the convenience of the stockholders.

Mr. W. A. WILKINSON wished to know distinctly,
was this a new offer now being made ? Ile quite agreed
with the hon. gentleman (Mr. Spooner) that if them!, were
new proposals the house ought to be put in a position to
consider them. . _ _

' Mr. BPOONER-I[4d not the South Sea Company, in
their corporate capacity, refused the term. offered, and
would not this bill enable individual votes to be given in
order to over-ride the corporate &Cluj, r.
' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No: the
fact was not so, that this clause would have the effect sug-
gested by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. DISRAELI pretested against the new view of the
government, that the state of the weather and of Europe
would account for the financial failure of the government.
Ile repeated—the Chancellor of the Exchequer hod been
warned fully that what hod happened would hove hap-
pened ; and the right hon. gentlem in had had full notice.
Atter some further rem irks fr,,in Mr. DI4RAELI, in
which he iutintatrd that ho would vote against the res4ln-
tion,

The committee divided
For the resolution ll7
Against

On the7neat resolution,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
this resolution was merely for the purpose of effecting &con-
venience.. The hon. member for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner)
seemed to suppose that between this resolution sad a private
bill coming before parliament there was some occult
relation, but he could assure the hon. gentleman that there
wee no intention whatever to ask the house, by agreeing to
this resolution, to prejudge the bill in question. That bill,
constituting the South Sea Company a trustee, was to be
considered on its merits, and the whole Effect of this reso-
lution was, that in case the house should see fit to confirm
that bill, enabling the South Sea Company, if it chose, to
arrange it among its proprietors, to continue public credi-
tors, without going through the form of liquidation and
then re-investment, that the government should have
power under this resolution to deal with the company in
that way. But the house was not now called upon to decide
whether or not such would be a good policy, or whether or
not it was desirable that the company should have a gua-
rantee fund ; that was no.. a question at all affected by this
resolution, which was merely an empowering resolution,
founded on the possibility that the house would adopt the
bill. . _

NEWDEGATE thought that if they passed this
resolution they -eould in effect prejudge the bill referred
to • and thus enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
deal on his own terms with the holders of trust property.
I. effect they would be changing the constitution of the
South Sea Company.
Sir F. KELLY considered that this resolution was open
to all the objections urged to the others ; but be would
reserve his observations till the bill in question came before
them.

In answer to • question,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the bill would be in the hands of members on Tuesday.
The resolution was then agreed to.
The house resumed; and the CHAIRYLN reported the
resolutions.