The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-20 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 20, 1847.

of the government had brought forward a plan be which he
hoped to gain strength out of doors. To the members at the
church of England the noble lord said, " I am ftr the &Autho-
rised version ;" and to the 'Worm Catholic remons'renee,
he replied, " Oh, never mind the minute about the autho-
rised version ; you know that sa the minute was made, it
could be unmade ; le; us get the money, and go through the
general election which is now near at hand, and theo you
shall see what we (the government) will do." Wu this the
sort of proceeding the government ought to follow ? (Hetet,
hear.) Was nor this an attempt on the part of the govern-
ment to conciliate interests which were totally imconcile-
ble ? It had been said by the right honourable
gentleman the member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macao-
r
ay) that there might be schools for the ltonian
Catholics, schools for the independents, schools for th. bap-
tists, and schools fur the members of the Church of England.
This might he in populous towns, but what would be the
provisions in villages and rural districts, whe re it would be
impossible to establish these separate schools? There no
school whatever could be maintained. If it was necessary
to have religious as well as secular education, he wanted
to know wltst was the business of the hierarchy of the
Church of England? what the use of its enormous
wealth and pow: r but to teach the religion of the Church of
England ? The members of the church ought to receive their
religious in.truction from the beneficed clergy of that
church, and, therefore, they were already provided ter. Not
so the dissenter, who would be excluded from the stat,
schools by the system of degmatical teaching. (Hear, hear.)
With Ti gard to the vote proposed, he objected to it because
its application was not specific, but lett to the irrevpotisiblv
mauageraeut of the government. Oa the whole he was of
opinion that, by this proposition, the government had
strengthened the bow and sharpened the arrow of faoaticim.
The noble lord at the head of the government might hare
achieved a great name by a different course. The right lion.
gentleman had appealed to posterity.—he might out live to
hear it, but the tone morht arrive when posterity would ay
'hot there had been in England an administration which h.ll
religious liberty on its lips, but that when it came into
power, and had the means to enforce their liberal opinion.,
they halted and Rembled, when they ought to here
advanced with a resolute step—that at the rah,
meut when they ought to have exhibited courage,
they turned tail and deserted the people. (Heir, hear.)
He would venture on a prophecy, that some one stepping
before this administration, teeing the great fault they had
committed, would constitute himself the liberal minister,
who would do all those things &hat the whim hid littlest t
do ; as the past was a directing index of the future, the same
hand which struck down the cons-laws might be the use to
erect a reel scheme of education; and g.n:lemen on that
Aide of the house who mistook the termer of the times.
who mistook the clamour of the ignorant, the discwo
tented, and interested, for the national with and who were,
afraid to do their duty, would find some more sagacious and
courageous minister occupying the pnsition cubic, they
might have occupied, but of which they were unworthy.
lie (Mr. Roebuck) said that the principle of the gover talent
plan was not that which the right hoes. gentleman lei( down
he assorted that this plan was not based on the principle wish
which the right hoe. gentleman had started, hut on a narrow
sectarian principle unworthy of the great end which shoo:.'
be &tamed ; but if they had had the courage and sagacity to
follow it, the pith was open to them by which they might
hare psedurated their duty —that of teachi, g of the perple.
On the motion of Mr. EiVART, the debate was tneu ad-
journed to this day, and the other orders of the day havi.te
been disposed of, the house adjourned at le minutes past 12
o'clock.

would quota what was said by Mr. Edward Beings, not •
year ago, on the 16th of May lest, in movieg the adoption of
the report of the committee of the c ingregational union : be
declared that the Kate of education in this country was such as
ought to make us ashamed, and to present a sad spectacle to
enlightened foreignen. (Hear, hear.) This was perfectly
true ; and under what system had it oecurrred ? Under the
system of non-interference and free competition, which, it
was said, would do all in time. But in how long ? It had al-
ready been triedsiace 1830. Were we M go on till 2847 or 3e47 ?
(Hoar, hear.) After so long an experiment, with so little
success. tried too under the most &VI/M..0)41 eircurcet&neti,
the conclusion was unavoidable, that the priee plc we. in-
applicable to education. (Hear.) For another argument
he would look to the north of this island, Scotland. Scotland,
united under the same laws with this country, though
possessing very little wealth compered with this
country, yet presented to it, in the matter of
education, • moat remarkable contrast. In the latter
end of the seventeenth century, Fletcher, of Sal.
coon, • man who fought for the liherty of his country,
proposed a system of education in Scotland, for the purpose
of preserving the peace iu that country. The change whisk
took place ea his principle being carried out, was unparal-
leled by any improvement that had ever token place in any
country in the world. In a short time, in spite of the inele-
mency of the air and the sterility of the soil, Scotland was a
country which had no reason to envy any part of the world.
This change had been effected by a Scotchman, and Scotchh•
men, in consequence, carried everywhere with them the
moral cultivation which they received. If • Scotchman bet
up a shop in any street in any teen, he had the best eludes
on the patronage of the people in the neighbourhood ; if a
Scotchman enlisted in the army he soon became a non-com-
missioned officer. In a short time the feeling, of the English
and Irish, with respect to Scotchman, altogether changed ;
and before that change, even in London, the Scotehroun was
looked upon as very little better than the Emeinnus. Hew
different were their &setup towards Scotcbmen when this
system was enforced; the language of contempt was at an
end, and the language cat encituragemetst took its place. The
Scotchman diereses:meet to rise, just as oil rota in water.
Was this • perfect system of stole education ? For from it
it was a system which wei open to many grounds of objec-
tion, but under this system of education, whatever may have
been its defects, Scotland prospered, and rose to each a
degree, that he did nut believe that any single person, no
matter how much opposed te state education, would say that it
was his opinion that Scotland would be the free, the civilised,
and the prosperous country that it was, if it were left to
free competition as regar led education. After the reasons
which he had given foe the deductions which he brought
before them, was it not envy to me what was the wrong
course and what was the right oae ? The arguments which
he had heard and read in favour of state education had fully
proved to him that he was correct in arriving at a conclusion
which he should not shriek from proclaiming, and which
was, that to take care of the education of the people was the
duty of the state. In arriving at that conchisieta, he weighed
well the objections that had been made to the principle, and
they appeared to vanish on *eery side. The money objeo '
Lion was the first to which he would come. He maintained
that if the education of the people were the duty of the
state, they should not, on account of the expenditure nf !
200,0001., neglect the education of the people, In • linen-
vial paint of view they would be sompensated di ten rare
by the value of the difference between an educated ant an
,uneducated people. (Herr, hear.) What they were
salted upon to lay out would never be equal to what
they now expended in keeping up persecution by !mane of
priests and penal colonies. (Cheers.) Then, as to the ciejeo
ties that this measure would give too much patronage to the
.crown, be would answer, that of all the expenditures of the
mown there was not one which was under such a check as
this would be. Not only must the estimates come before
them every year, as all the ether estimates did, but
when they had voted • grata sum, they should recollect that
the application of the details was under the control of those
in every locality who were the friends of education. It wee
under their control in a most extraordinary manner, and in
order that the government should consider them, they should
contribute also. It was stated, too, that the government would
by means of the system have the power of compelling the
people to educate their children under schoolmatheee who_
were objectionable to them. In the first pleas thews who
made that objection should recollect that the government
would not have the appointment of the masters, nor would
they, in the second place, have any control as regarded their
distaissel. In the third place the masters could be dismissed
only by the managers, tin matter what sect they may
belong to ; and in the fourth place they would receive no
salary, unless these managers sanctioned it. This. was not
a formal matter, for the condition of the masters receiving
lel. • year was, that the managers should pay him 301. in
five portions. He made that statement lest tee notion
should get abroad that a schoolmaster who belonged to a
dissenting school of liberal education a conservative LONDON, TUESDAY, APRIL 20.
minister being in power—could lie bribed by the appoint-
ment to the office of schoolmaster to one of these public . Ova readers will have observed that our well-
ichools. to vote for a coeservative candidate. The fact case,
informal Roman correspondent anticipates the early
that if there was the lee
susnicion of such a thing, the establishment of diplomatic relations between the
dissenting managers coule refuse his appointment. If he court of England and the Vatican. The absurd pre-
had been appointed, and that even two large subs:fibers to jadices which have so long stood in the way of this
the funds suspected it, then down went his salary, natural and convenient arrangement, will no doubt
and he could not get • teething from the xtate.
On the whole applicetioa of this money there was vent themselves in a parting burst of clamour wheia-
the strongest check, far stronger Ulan had ever ever it is finally accomplished ; but we hope that this
been imposed on any expenditure by that house. No person portion of the tribute, which sense pays to nonsense in
dould be • popular teacher, ea • stipendiary monitor, unless the . hypocrisy of statesmen pretending to be more
the wheel was kept in strict cenformay with the preliminary foolish than they are, may, if not before, at least im-
regulations ; and these teachers should give reasonable sem
aban-
city before they would he appointed by the managers, Who nmehately after the general election, be finally
would check every abuse. It was said that this principle cloned. We have the reverse of a desire to encourage
would destroy ill voluntary subscription; but that was false. the growth of popery at home, but when the nation
61a:eternal who made such statements should read the mi- goes abroad into the world it cannot well enforce a
notes of the council, where they would find that the religions test as the 'condition •f its diplomatic
payments to he made by the goverweent would keep e
ninon. There is somethin sus
path with the voluntary subscriptions ; and, there- recoggsuspiciously
tore, it was quite impossible that two evils, as was prudish in our refusal to acknowledge the
attempted to be shown. seemly, the destruction or voluntary acquintanceship. of the Pope, who is at worst a
subscription and the thawing away of public money, could mere demirep in point of orthodaxy, when we
occur at the same time; for if there were no voluntary sue, are intimate with the Sunnite Sultan of the Turks,
scriptious this house would never be called upon to pay a familiar with the Sheeite Shah of Persia, and on no-
farthing for education ; and if ever, an had boon stars d,
they would be obliged to expend 2,000,0001. for that puipne, casionat visiting terms with the nondescript Buddhist
winch he never expected to see, the reason would be that or Pagan who occupies the throne of China.
the volcntary subscriptions would have increued to an
.n *ay be said, indeed, that the misbelieving po-
enormous and impossible amount. The friends of the cause ' teototeh to wham we have referred, are so far kw eh.
would become so zealous and animated in the cause, that ee„,„• „eee„„ 0,,,,, seecessor of ST. PETER that they
4,0:10,911101. would be laid out. He thought that be had Met "'"'""'"`""" T. - •
the objesthas with regard to ezpanditure. sad *eine/ewe claim no power or supremacy over the subjects of
patr=st the crown. The next objection was, that which England t and although the proposition is not strictly
,by the hon. member for Finsbury,. that this cieenplete, inasmuch as the Turkish that= has. more
system cab O:r&rd to the 'PrincltiPl" of the British than once exercised. is our favour the influence or
Fifteen or twenty, 'a"' ~. `" „,, "e °clung the Mahomedans of India which they derive
'et'- epee& he told. them that the committee
' a eat was to be a ea elected body, from their character u representatives of the
itself- ra
ted bodyy and
a self-acting body. Now it was Prophet, we are willing to accept the die-
s. mush • ssigslaeoed body as the Board of Admiralty. The tinction for what it is worth. Dune is no
committee was to be appointed by a commission of her doubt that the court of Rome bears a peculiar and im-
marestyreesseetste to the advice : f her respansible counsel. runt relation to the Roman Catholic population of
Were these sem that they were self-elected. What was the
sonetitutional principle that the adoption of this principle
would Britain and Ireland. And this is the strongest
would infringe ? Ile would next allude to the objet- reason for facilitating in every manner the arrange-
non, that this system would interfere with religious ment of all questions which may arise between the
opinion, but it was impossible for anybody not to admit thit government and the spiritital authority. The restric-
the system which was proposed was perfectly free from par- Lions which law or custom has impued on diplomatic
tialicy. It was impassible to conceive a principle of stricter
impartiality as between the church and the dissenting sects.
relations with Rome were crigittally intended as per-
Wherever any sect prevailed, there the teachers would for sonal checks on the crown. Ambassadors and foreign
the moat part belmg to that sect The adoption of this .ministers were formerly rather the personal servants
plan of education w.dilt no way injure the dissenters, and Of the reigning sovereign than the representatives of
he hoped that the desolates, when all momentary irritation the flatten at large i and it was thought desirable to
on the subject was over, would unite as Englishmen and
chemises, though they yet continued to be sionoinform. throw obstacles in the way of the intrigues whisk all
We. Every sect was eguelly interested in giving a good the'Sleteetr sovereigns in succession had aerial on
education to the members of another. It was the interest of with the expel court. JAMES I. and CHARLES 1., at
all that the great body of the people should be educated•
different time., held out to the Pope the prospect of
Ho thought he had now gone through the several points to
that change in the national religion which Jena% 11.
which his hon. friend the member for Finsbury hadadverted.
Re, there was one point he had omitted ; but upon that his attempted to realise. It is 'Wadable that any
hon. friend had not offered to the hours any explanation.king or queen of England could entertain au*
That paint was the referehce of this question to a select rum- projects now. Among the peOple pcipery may
mattes. He (Mr. Macaulay) could hardly think it necessary,
after such evidence as that furnished b y the resolution of nuuntisia or extend itself if it can, but it can no
longer be imposed from above by the interference
the congregational union, to which he had already adverted,
that any inquiry as to whether, without education, civil of goveri. ment. The influence of Rome must be
liberty, to such • population as that of Great Britain, eou.d exerted through the priesthood and through the feel-
=he more then a 11•100. (Hear, hear.) To fit the po- loge of the laity, by secret agents, perhaps, it under-
'he the franchises of which the honourable
member had spoken, mentd degradation must be abo- hand objects should be contemplated, but never by
the direct action of public ministers acting between
lbhed—(hear, hear)—and he was • very short-sighted
man who would melte no effort to give the pimple court and
,_court. What we propose is not to
that education, without which the franchise would neither Strengthen MS Priesthood, or to grub facilitlee for
be beeeistel to themselves nor to the scats. (Hear, hear) foreign spiritual influence, but to give the secular
alec(ffilre Macaulay) had now done, and from the clamour
Wilk which they had been surrounded without, he appealed 'authorities of the nation the means of watching,
co-operating with, or controlling, the anomalous but
'with confidence to the country, to which In no long space or . ... •
time the y must render an account of their stewarthhm, and MOVILAWD action of the Roman Catholic Church.
the appealed with still more confidence to future ages, which, If Roman Catholics were unknown mug us, and
afterenjosiag the bleseings of • just and efficient system a Ireland Was a fabulous or imaginary. island, there cpn
sturedesation, would leek back with astonishment et the' be no doubt that an English minister would be
- - Which the Introduction of that system had en-
,and with still more aetonialiment that the resistance
offered in the name of civil and religious freedom. °mai* , .Pope
. ROEBUCK raid, that coucurring rola e did in all the as a min
thought at leapt its necessary at Rome as at Dresden
or Fr The is in a respectable position
minor territorial potentate; but hie political Ica-
eresaises of the right boo. gentleman who bah just sat down, portance is utterly disproportioned to the extent of '
he bed only to show why he disagreed with the eenclusions
the States of the Church. NAPOLEON thought it
which the right hon. gentleman had drawn from those worth
his white to cultivate the friendship of Plea
ems. Ho Write* quarrel with the right hon. gentle. else,
an
alialges Wa eassamits, but he quarelled with ham for . d the Emperor Ntenotss attempted but
ie. kdbabia senclusione, which his promisee lately in vain to court at Rome the chief. of the reli-
did not rapport. Be said the govemment had a duty glens which he persecutes in Poland. It ts, above all,
-te perform ; that they were going to educate the people, ..in Italy that the sovereign of Rome is of weight, as
and that, if they educated the majority, the minority would
he traditional head of the national party. For seven
have no right complain. Now, can supposing the ma. t
to or eight centuries the Guelph, or native Italian party,
jority were to be educated, and supposing that majority to
bil of the church of England, he thought that the require- has periodically rallied round the Pope as the chief
meats of every human being coming to the school to learn opponent of German and Austrian dominion. Under
the catechism was • matter of which the minority would &keyed circumstances the straggle against As Ghibel-
have a fair right to complain. The minority would have line preponderance in Italy seems likely to be renewed.
rased. i° 4°AaamPhainoWialvtar,Zkirstbdt PamrsPr :It°, ttebeeyeesweereete";; The chief popularity of Press IX. is founded on!his
—that was to say, the minorityere taxed for soculat assumed disposition to resist the court of Vienna.
education and for religious education also. But it The interest of England in Italian struggles might be
wed sal, iteit the minority ought not to mm- 'remote; if they were confined to the limits of the
plain 1.6.1.8 by generil educationeat "Tanta" *Wanda; but all history shows the desireof Frau,
nand assaasle the whole community. This he (lir. Roe-. .„ eatead her power beyond the Alpe, and to supplant
Oteek)sleilleil but still he would not acknowkdge that '''''
tffileipapplealfelde country had not a right to deemed midi r
the complications which may
Austria in Lombardy. We have neither the wish nor
spans df oduestinn as should admit all dames to participate the power to anticipate ,
in its benefits'. (Hear, hear) This was really them Ater arise from the possible alliance between the cans♦ of
in dispute, The hou. baronet the tn,vaher cv the Univeni7 Lama& freedom and that of French ambition. We
of Oxford object, dto toy teaching but the teaching of the Mile assert, that in any case England cannot remain
church of England. r. Danes, jun., &ejected to etn,v , .e...,-,0,
teaching which was not according to his own fashion. Ihe Rome , but that we shale'
inneuereet. It may be necessary to assist, to check,
independents would, not -him tiny church of England' 'or to advise' the court of ,
catechism in their aetteblee The It ton Catholics objecte4 have occasion to deal with it in some way is certain;
to the use of the " authorised vernier •r of the Scriptures. dud there seems to be no reason against our dealing
And while all these parties were eontendiag end opp-4i04 „he it by the recognised medium of intercourse
one another, the government supped in, a el titled with the
between independent governments.
t hurch of Engl.. oilier reigious one niuney ad, while every ' it is With refeicuee, however, to Ireland, that an
was by them neglected. (liter.) The noble lad at the bond

Zia epprog.

MMUS;
The overload closed ells Menetlles, to the Meiliterreeeth.
rand. Ade.. 0,1 bib. Half Key, die., will be made up on the
,ening atlas Seth Apra.
doe malls far Vie% 00X:i7Lisliou, Madeira, Cadiz, sad Gibraltar
will be aide we en the of the 27th Aprll.
The mile Olt 14.1/ Sella Mee, Vas Diersea'a Lend, end Nes
Zealand will lubere ye as So snobs at the April.
'the West muds. euetedlattheee Ow idezieo. Hendo*, end
the flatheads, will be mar ealhearandur alba l Mop.
fl ember, inhaler MallikOmees; the Mahe Wei%
Adak Oeykee, WY, liamp.lkeimer dr, Me IhralUempiem.
will be glade up au the man*" sighs May.
'Me mails kr Britheld Iterth hMiNtes, lermerb. lad the Coital
.‘tates, will be made wp an the awing the ard May.
The mails for the Enid* the Mum Rae, Monte Video, reros..
bOOO, Pala Maier'. sad Bowes Ayres, will be made op ea the
feeding of the 41h May.

111011 WATER AT LONDON-MUDD&
Tam 1)44-51043u6g, 23 min. sot 5 ; Afterwon. 44 4416. psrt 5.
To-Muuow—•Yawing, ti lain. post 6 ; Afternoon, 31 tale. put 6.