The Express.
London, England, 1848-07-12 00:00:00

some sort to do so by the observations of the bon. member
who had just addressed the house. He had understood that
hon. member to say that he approved of the bill as it had
come down from the House of Lords but that subsequent
alterations had very much changed his opinion. Now,qu his
(Sir J. Graham's) observations had led him to a conclusion
almost the converse of that of the hon. member. (Hear,
hear.) As the bill had come down from the Lords it had
not satisfied him, while the alterations of the Solicitor-
General had filled him with hope as to its ultimate success.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. member had spoken rather dis-
parseingly of the speech of the hon. and learned Soli-
citor-General. On that point be was also at issue
with the hon. member, his opinion of the bill
being that it should not be framed in obedieece
to the technical scruples of conveyancers. He had heard
with the greatest pleasure from a gentleman bear-
ing the name of the solicitor-general a speech worthy at
once of the lawyer and the statesman, not exclusively legal
in its character, but also taking that large political view
which was alone worthy of the subject, (Cheers ) He was
not prepared on that occasion to go at length into the juris-
prudence of Ireland, in the manes of which the hon. mem.
ber for Carlow seemed so much to delight. That hon. mem-
ber had told them some extranrdinary facts as to the
pos.sessian of Irish estates. He (Sir J. Graham) lived on the
Scottish border, where it was possible for a man to be mar-
ried without his knowing it, but that it appeared was our-
pained by many things which happened in Ireland. (A
laugh.) 'The various other matters to which the hon. mem-
ber had shaded were, no doubt, very important, but they
were certainly not germane to the matter they had in hand.
The objection which he had to the bill as it had come down
from the Lords was in immediate connexion with the expenses
of the Court of Chancery. (Hear, hear ) As the bill came
down from the Lords, it offered only three modes of , Ifs cling
the sale of incumbered estates; and it should be re-
membered that in the bill as it had come down
from the Lords everything remained untouched. No-
thing hail been withdrawn by the honoureble and
learned Solicitor.Geneml. The bill, then, as left by the
Lords, provided for three modes of operation. First, the
tenant for life might make an arrangement for sale with the
incumbrauceraand having effected his bargain might appeal
to the Court of Chancery to give it ratillaition the second
mode allowed him to sell without a bargain with the incur's-
hewer, and a simile:. appeal ; and by the third mode, the
first ineumbrencer might appeal to the court far leave to sell.
Now, with respect to the first mode, he saw great objection
to the delay and expense attendant upon confining to the
Court of Chancery the sole machinery of sale. (Hear.) With
regard to the two Isst modes he did not see the same objec-
time ; hut still the objection with respect to delay and expense
seemed to apply with considerable torte. (Hear, hear.) And
if the bill still stood as it had come down from the Lords, he
should have very much doubted its producing much frac •
tical effect. (Hear, hear.) Ile now came with great seta-
faction to such portion of the hill as, since its arrival in that
house, hail been engrafted on it by the lion. anti learned
Solicitor-General, and he must say that, in his opinion, these
alterations were an immense improvement on the original
measure. (Cneers.) They avoided altogether the expense
and delay of applications to court, a point on which
be had beard with great pleasure the observations
of the hon. member for Limerick (Mr. Monsen),
who seemed to him to have taken • soused and
intelligent view of U e subject. (Hear, hear.) He was as-
tithed that if the re-adjustment of property in Ireland were
left to the Court of Chancery and the lawyers, no practical
good would be effected. He was convinced that every twi-
litv must be given for the conversion of land at its full
value into money. (Laud cries cf " hear.") Care must
be arisen to pay all creditors, leaving the residue to the inhe-
ritance; but, at the same time, every possible facility should
be given for sale. He must say that is that view were sound
the S &case-General had gone very far in effecting his ob.
ject. Every' encsuragement ought also to be given to the sub-
division of land. (Hear, hear.) He was most anxious to
re-unite to the soil of Ireland the Roman catholic capital
of that country, which he thought would be one of the great.
est securities tor its trarquil'ity. (Hear, hear.) Ile believed
that the Irish Roman catholic', through their industry, to-
gether with their long exclusion from rights as to land, had
accumulated capital, and that they were not unwilling to
invest it in the land. (Hear. hear.) Unfortunately the
large (-Maus held through confiscations by protestants were
for the meat part heavily incumbered, and those incum-
brances prevent, el the nominal holders from doing th it duty
as landlords. (Hear, hear.) He would relieve them from
this painful position, and provide for the payment of their
creditors, but above all would give facilities for bringing the
land to market in such lots as would attract the investmer,ts
of small capitalists. (Hear, hear.) lie must say that he
looked at the government measure with great faith.
He considered it to be sound in principle, as violating no
principle, and one from which, if successful, great results
both political and social must necessarily follow. (Hear,
hear.) He should go into committee with an earnest dmire
to make the bill as efficient as possible. All rights should be
protected, and care should be taken that the value of land
was not depreciated by precipitate sales. (Hear, hear.) It
was also ia.portant that a mortgagee panic should not be
created, and therefore every step must be taken with cau-
tion. But, in the present circumstances of Ireland (said
the right hon. baronet in conclusion), you must not be
guided by caution only. you must not take your steps
timidly. tHear, hear.) The time has arrived when some-
thing decisive respecting this measure must be done. For
it as a whole I feel highly grateful to government ; I cor-
dially support it, and shall give my humble assistance in
committee towards rendering it as efficieut as passible.
(Loud cheers.)
Mr. D. BROWN supported the bill as being calculated to
release the landed proprietors of Ireland from very painful
embarrassments, and to enable them to do their duty to-
wards their tenantry in a mare efficient manner than at
present.
Sir J. WALSH opposed the hill and observed that the
house, though it was not indisposed to enter into a considera-
tem of the means by which the law of En 'land and Ireland,
in respect to mortgage., transfers, ant other matters con-
nected with real property, might be assimilated, he hoped it
was not prepared to cut the Gordian knot of the difficulty by
invading the rights of private pro erty, or, by a side wind,
sweeping away that law of succession which was recognised
by the soundest principles of political co esomy, as well as by
all and constitutional practice, and on which the pees-
perite of this country mainly rested. If they dealt with Ire-
land by • measure which would confiscate the property or
Ireland and sacrifice the rights of individuals as certainly as
the most violent and sudden revolution, instead of laying the
foundations of permanent improvem, set, they would add to
the feeling of insecurity, prevent the investment of capital,
and altogether destroy dime springs of industry it was their
object to revive.
Mr. B. OSBORNE believed the government had been in-
fluenced by the purest motives in bringing forward this mea-
dssure. (Hear, hear.) But what he complained of was the
lay which was allowed to interpne in respect to all m, s-
etae' really calculated to improve the condition of Ireland.
On three distinct occasions had such a bill been recommended
to thew in Queen's speeches, bat because the moneyed inte-
rest of this toiletry was supposed to have a direct interest in
preventing the passing of such • measure, the people of Ire-
land had been sacrificed. He gave great credit to the Soli-
citor-0e aeral for the improvements which had been made
in the bill since it came down from the House of Lords. As
it came from that house it was a complete nullity; and his
only fear now was, that it was brought forward in its im-
proved form so late, that the amendments were not likely
to pass the other house before the and of the session. lie
believe 1 that the only way to carry nut the measure effec-
tively was by a commissian appointed for the purpose; it
would be useless if left to the Master's-office of the Court of
Chancery. If the bill was worth anything, it was to enable
incumbered estates to be sold, not merely in gross, but in
portiere+, and to make it operative for that object they must
make tae transfer of property cheap. Upon this point he
had consulted two eminent solicitors —one being a con-
veyancer —and t film out o hope that the transfer
of land would ybe de n
cheaper by this bilL
If they desired the measure to be really bsneficial to Ireland,
they must discard the views of solicitors, attorneys, receivers,
and nee those parties whose inter.st lay in the law's delay. I
(Hear, hear.) And he we uld say further, with regard totMl
landlonls, that 'Mane was now in that state when it was
necessary to commit some injustice to do a great public good.
Again, if they desired the bill to do goad, and it they wiehed
to create a class of small proprietors in Irland, they must
reconsider the stamp duties, which now bore must dispropor-
tionately on emelt transfers. He was aware that some Eng-
lish members looked with alarm on this measure, as an arbi-
trary interference with the rights of private property ; and,
were In land in the same state as England, nobody, he be-
lieved, would recommend or support such a bill. But it was
not so. The whole state of society in Ireland was diseased ;
and the taws relating to Wei we re at the bottom of it. (Hoar,
hear.) Of the Irish landed aristocracy those only resided in
that country whose property was encumbered ; and t' ease
from the pressure et their embarrassment", were often driven
to hard and selfish acts against their tenants. The
greatest boon that could be conferred on these proprietors
would bs. a measure allowing them to sell portions of their
estates to pay oft tho incumbrances on the remainder.
The system of receivers under the Court of Chancery in Ire-
land was monstrous—the persons appointed fur the most
part knowing nothing of land, and caring nothing about the
perm:tient interest of the proprietor or the welfare of the
tenant?, their only object being to drain from the estates as
much money as possible. Of upwards of a million sterling,
received by the Court of Chancery on account of the estates
in their hands, it appeared that only ss. 4d. per cent. was
spent in improvements. The mismanagement of property in
Ireland by the Court of Chancery had been denounced by
the present Master of the Rolls ; and the Right Hon. A.
Blake, the late Chief Remembrancer, had recently stated
that a measure for sweeping out that court was even more
necessary than sanitsry reform. It was only in December,
1817, that a receiver applied to Master Murphy for some
portion of the proceeds of a certain estate to improve the
property, repair the boos, s and buildings, which were failing
to decay, and so give employment to the tenants, and though
the receiver stated that a large number of the tenantry had
died of starvation, and GOO had been buried in two holes dug
on the property, the application was refused. Such was the
state of things in Ireland that unless some stringent measure
were puled, they would soon have a state of anarchy there
which must end in universal ruin and destruction. The proxi-
mate cause of the murde r of Major Mahon, at Strokesto wn, was
that his property had been for a long time previously to his
coming into possession under the control of the court of
chancery, end the tenants left to themselves; and in the
me of Mr. Roe it was said that there was a meeting of Lis
tenants to decide whether it would not be better to shoot
him, as in that case the estate would be pieced in chancery,
and they would not be called oa to pay their rent. The hon.
member for Carlow bad a measure which would have the
effect of throwing more property into the market, and had
added that there were 4,000,000/. worth of land now for
sale in Ireland. But that was because under present cite
eumstances capitalists would not invest in that country. But
the statemen's of lawyers and thou who were Interested in
Maintaining the law as it stood with its uncertainties