The Express.
London, England, 1851-04-01 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY kVENING, APRIL 1, 1851

.----- ._..
eratigated the matter in the a%il of the -104 1 (the Cbsbeellor of4le Efterassqueryied 'Misapprehended his
Chancellor, there being no parent{ to reptesent l first qdilltlgialle.(Met`Fseliblefield).did not with the right !
him, and they came to thetra=ltr, forasoths 1 lion.Weittl to decilothe point of law as to what MU- I
that it was desirable that the pa ld 1111000 a I Raided's" °newspaper. Hie question had been whether a
from the •Lerd Chancellor and was to the Fitatberd
shied monthly peffilicattAs cosigning Daiwa was a newsrapar ? 1
the Treasury. (Hear.) Ten
it was miff that *shied i The CHAY.n.:ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the I
Chan sellor was originally an euelesiaetia, onllthis pa
point Newt tate of laW, and he must decline giving en
was vented in him to enable to him reward his officers. 'Why, opaline' On it.
SAVINGS BANKS.
no ecclesiastic bad filled the office for more than 200 years.
He had thought it necessary to state these facts preparatory I Me. 11. HERBERT sake& the Chancellor of the Ee-
to the question which he was about to put to the noble 1 chequer whether the Registrar of Friendly Societies was
lord opposite. He wished, then, to know why the untal . authorised by the government, or by the commissioners fur
practice in similar easel had been departed frum—why
ad this the reduction of the national debt, to state at a public meet-
measure had been divided into two bills, and why oat hing, held at St. Helen's, In April, 1850, that a bill would
been brought into the other house of parliament, and the without doubt be immediately passed by the legislature
other, of which they at present had no knowledge. was to giving to depositors in savings hanks government security ,
be introduced into that house ? He should be glad to re- for their investments ; and whether it was under the
ceive a reply either from the noble earl (Grey) or the noble sanction of either the government or the commissioners for
and learned lord on the woolsack. (Hear, hear.) the reduction of the national debt, that the said Registrar
The LORD CHANCELLOR, though not so well ac- of Friendly Societies recommended at St. Helen's the for-
quainted with the rules of the house as Lord Lyndhurst, mation of a new institution (the old one having failed), and
could not help thinking that his noble friend had entirely advised parties to deposit their savings, on the grounds that
forgotten those rules. The bills which he had been con- future frauds would be impossible ; and whether the govern-
menting upon were no hills at all, for they had not yet been ment will be responsible for any losses that may accrue to
introduced into either house. The question of Chancery depositors, either at St. Ilelen sor elsewhere, who may
reform was one of immense difficulty, and discussions on it have been induced by the advice of this public officer to in-
hail often taken place in their lordships house. Under vest their money ins savings bank?
such circumstances, he did not think it extraordinary that The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
Lord Jahn Russell should have brought forward a similar the government were not responsible for any statements
discussion in the House of Commons. Ile would only add made under the circumstances referees' to. He could not
in conclusion, that he thought the course taken by his of course then state what views the government might hold
noble friend, in plunging into this irregular discussion, was on the various questions relating to savings banks ; but this
little calculated to increase the respect felt for their lord- he might say, that although the registrar spoken of had in 1
ships house. his private capacity made statements at a public meeting,
Lard BROUGHAM said that the Lord Chancellor had the government were not to be bound by them.
called Lord Lyndhurst's question irregular and extraordi- I METROPOLIS BUILDINGS BILL.
nary, but he thought his noble friend's answer still more YY 1
Mr. B. OSBORNE begged to ask the noble lord at the
extraordinary, inasmuch as it was no answer at all, for ter-
head of the Woods and Forests (Lord Seymour) what course
tainly there must have been a reason for introducing the I
bill into the House of Commons in the first instance, and 1 . intended
.. pursue he towith regard to the Metropolis Build-
ings Bill, which was set down on the paper for that night ?
yet they were not told what that reason wae.
It was a question in which some discussion would be neces-
After some further discussion, in which Lord GREY and
mew and it was to be trusted that the bill would not be
Lord REOESI.AI.II joined, the matter dropped. • t
brought on at so late an hour that discussion on it would be
Their lordships asljournedshaetly before seven o'clock.
----._ prevented.
1 Lord SEYSIOUR replied that he would not bring on
• the bill in question at an hour when discussion on its merit,
would be precluded.
THE ARMY IN INDIA.
Colonel DUNNE begged to ask the Secretary-at-War
(Mr. F. Maule) whether the government intended to carry
out the system of relieving the regiments in India?
Mr. F. MAULE said that as far as practicable the go-
vernment intended to earry out the practice, so that the
regiments might not remain more than fifteen years. Of
course there would be exceptions made where the public
service required them.
The house then passed to the order of the day. On the'
order for going into committee of supply, I
Mr. ILUME said the house would neollect that on F
ri-
day
night, after voting 9/4,711 men, a proposition was ma
to vote 3,521,000/. for the charge of the land forces. He
was a member of the committee which had been sitting fur
three years upon the army estimates. In the committee a
variety of questions had been raised, but nothing had been
decided. 1 heave question+ related to the civil administration
of the army, and as to whether great economy might be et
fected in it. Amongst other matters which were under
consideration were the questions of agency and of commis-
sariat, and clothing. It would be impossible to effect any
reduction if they were at once to vote the whole of the
money. Ile had propoeed to the noble lord to take a vote
en account ; hut the noble lord did not agree to that. He
I moved that no further supplies be granted till the fivan-
, eial statement was made.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD seconded.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, supposing
the only object of the amendment to be the obtaining a re-
newal of Lord J. Russell's engagement that the budget
should be brought forward on Friday, gave his assurance I
that the financial statement should be made on that day,
unless prevented by circumstances which lie certainly could I
not foresee. He therefore urged Mr. Hume not to impede 1
the course of public business.
Mr. E. ELLICE also urged Mr. Hume to allow the
estimates to proceed.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that the complaint was, that
the budget hail not been produced before public money had i
been demanded, and he did not think the govcrnmeut wenl
delierving of the favour their a,ked.
Mr. S. Crawford, Mr. is owatt,asked. and Mr. Wakley said a'
few word., after which
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if he
hail not been distinct enough before, he now distinctly
stated that he should make hi, statement on Friday next.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he must divide on this mo-
tion, no answer having been given to the questions that he
hail put.
Stringers were then ordered is withdraw, but before
they had done so,
Mr. HUME withdrew his motion.
The house then went into committee of supply, Mr. Dru-
mat in the chair.
On the first cote for 3,521,070/. for the charge of her
'-'s laud forces at home and abroad, except in India,

Shan they lisd

Millions a year more upon OUT arena,...--
done since 1828. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. V. 8/41.7111 complained that the debate was very
irregular ; Mid that the hon. member (Mr. Hume) had been
Weak*, neither to the original motion nor to the amend•
moat. lie for on must deprecate the practice of t
aaking
' votes on amount. e (Cheers.) The result he hadalways
found to be, that when the brat part of the sum was taken
the discussion was postponed; and of course when the
other part was asked for it was always too late to debate
upon it. (Cheers and laughter.) Thus there was no dis-
cussion either at one stage or the other.
Mr. FOX MAULE quite agreed with the right hon.
gentleman who had spoken last as to the system of taking
Totes on account having a tendency to stifle discussion; but
he must say that the right hon. gentleman had been
rather too hard upon the hon. member for Montrose (Mr.
Hume), whose remarks had been perfectly legitimate to the
occasion. (Hear, hear.) With respect to that gentle-
man's objection to the maintenance of the Body
Guards, ho entirely differed from him for various reasons.
In the first instance, he looked upon the Guards as part of
the state and royalty of the monarch. (Cheers.) In the
next place, he looked upon them as the guard of this vast
and wealthy metropolis; and with respect to the proposi-
tion of the hon. member to make all the regiments do duty
at court in rotation, he believed that the proposition would
meet with general opposition from the army itself.
After a few words from Mr. HexE in reply,
Colonel REID, who spoke from under the gallery, was
understood to admit that the number of officers In the
Guards was proportionately greater than in the,line but to
contend that the officers of the guards served the state
I gratuitously. They paid very high for their commissions.
Mr. MOWATT wished to know the number of troops left
in New South Wales, when they were likely to be removed,
and when the same system would be applied to Canada ?
Mr. F. MAULE was understood to say that the number
of troops now in New South Wales was 1,000. It was not
the intention of government at present to remove those
troops ; but he trusted the time would come when it would '
be possible to do so. In Canada, they were not prepared at
present to reduce the troops any further. (Hear.)
Col. DUNNE said the large proportion of officers in the
Guards was most unjust. The evidence taken before the I
i committee on the estimates showed that, in the Guards, the
proportion of superior officers to the men was 1 to 74; while
in the cavalry it was 1 to 337 ; and in the regiments of the
line Ito 617. That was a most unjust disproportion; and
the result was, that the higher ranks and rewards of the
service were given chiefly to Guardsmen. The pay of a
colonel of the Guards was 4961.; allowances, 1271.; making
a total of 6231.: whilst those two sums in the line only
amounted to 331/. In the Guards majors of the highest
class received 6701., of the lowest 532/. Ifis., besides allow-
ances. The captains in the Guards, who were lieutenants-
colonel, received in pay and allowances 434/. ; in the line it
was 239/. It was said the officers in the Guards paid more for
their commission ; but thew got the advantage in rank and
higher pay. rutting all these things together, it would be
found that they were a very expensive corps.
Mr. MACGREGOR wished to make some observations on
11 this as a financial question. Considering that three millions
of the taxes were involved in that vote, he thought it would
be trifling with the constitution to pass it hastily. The
statement of the Right Hon. Secretary-at-War was as
satisfactory as any he had ever heard; still he thought it
possible greatly to reduce the amount of the vote by limit-
ing military duty in this country and also in the colonies,
especially in the North American colonies. In the Canadas
there was a militia of 120,000 men, all as good shots as any
in the British army. In addition to these, a few com-
panies of regular troops stationed at Montreal and
other large towns would be amply sufficient. In New
South Wales, 100 or 200 men would be quite sufficient. Ile
dial not believe that the inhabitants generally had any wish
for the retention of the troops on account of the money they
spent. In Ireland, exclusive of the regular trains, there
was another army in the shape of the constabulary force.
Mr. HUME said he should not withdraw his amendment,
and repeated some of the arguments which he had urged in
its support.
Colonel LINDSAY said the rank at present enjoyed by
officers of the Guards had been given them at a time when
there were only 17 regiments in the army, of which 11 were
only raw levies, hastily raised by noblemen to resist
the Duke of Monmouth. While the Guards had only
one general officer, in the line there were three. He
contended that there was no cause to complain of extrava-
gant expenditure in respect to the household troo;:s.
Col. ESTCOUICF, who spoke from the hack bench, com-
pletely under the gallery, was understood to complain that
the system adopted with regard to good conduct alto s-
auces was such as to operate very injuriously on a very me-
ritorious class of non-commisaioned officers—the sergeants.
Col. DUNNE denied that he had made any misstatement
as to the relative proportion of officers in the Guards and
the line.
In answer to Mr. HENLEY,
Mr. F. MAULE said that, as regarded savings banks,
the number of depositors up to March, 1850, according to
the returns was 7,8.59, and the amount deposited 94,9611.,
and comprehended neither those interested in the benefit
societies nor the funds belonging to them. There could be I
s wish to conceal in any way. the funds expended; I
' - would be most • to give an annual account of

Majesty's''-- —, - ,-
Mr. HOME said the house would recollect that during and he ...,-___ _ happy to give e.
the last two seesions they had adopted the course of giving how the funds were expended. In no case were they ex-
a vote on account. If that course were taken now, there pended without the consent of the commanding officer, and
would be time to consider the recommendations of the sanctioned by the Secretary at War.
committee before the sestina was closed. He moved, as an Sir D. L. EVANS said it was important that the
amendment, that two millions be granted on account. difference between the Guards and the regiments of the
Mr. FOX MAC LE said on fOrmer °cued ~,, * he had not line should be noticed. It appeared on the minutes of
the least objection to taking a vote on account, but on this evidence of more than ;one enininittee that officers of the I
oceassion he slid not see any advantage in going into corn- Guards obtained higher rank eight or ten years .caner than
inane again on this vote. Supposing the estimates corn- did officers of the line ; in other words, the highest steps
mime were to report that a change should be made on the 1 in rank were obtained by officers in the Guards in one-
subject of clothing, or of the commissariat, the arrangements I third of the number of years they were in the line. (Hear.)
neeemary fur making that change he did not think could The inference was, that an average of twenty years' service
be made in the financial year. The only thing he could on the banks of the Thames was equivalent to thirty years'
meanie: would be that the government would be prepared service on the banks of the Sutlej or in Kallirland.
to adopt it in the ensuing year. lie, therefore, thought the Sir IL VERNEY tugged to assure the lion. and gallant
house would Mate its time by nt once agreeing to the vote. officer (Sir De Lacy Evans) that officers of the Guards,
whether stationed on the hanks of the Sutltj or the
Mr. MOWAT r asked if the right hon gentleman would
give the committee some explanation with reference Thames, did their duty. (Hear, hem.) As to Katiirliutd,
to the troops for the colonies. The government one of the most gallant officers there (Colonel M.Kinnon)
took advantage of the disposition of honourable gentle was an officer of the Guards.
men on the other side of the house not to permit Captain BERKELEY, as an officer of the line, should
an,' discussion. It was only a little while ago that the say that, when in the army, he never heard the least
noble lord (Lord J. Russell) had made an appeal ad jealousy amongst the line officers in reference to the promo-
mieericeedians to that large portion of the house who teas of the officers of the Guards. (Hear, hear.)
supported the same commercial policy as himself, to lay After a few
by all minor difference*: and he was therefore surprised inaudible in the gwords from Col. Cuettgueue, which were
allure,
that the noble lord should have treated them in the man- Mr. HENLEY uuderstood to sugge't an annual
return of the affairs of military savings banks.
nee he did. After such conduct, he cared not how
soon the noble lord might find himself again in the position Mr. lIUME said that the expenses of recruiting amounted
in which he was a short time ago. In fact, it was partly to 100,12 N., when, by throwing the duty on the veteran
owing to the noble lord's want of the common courtesy, retired officers, the cost would not be half that. (Divide.)
which might have been expected from one holding the same- Mr. F. MAULE said he had had his attention already
lion of a prime minists r, the he hail found himself in that called to that subject. (Divide.)
embarrassment ; and he might depend upon it that if Sir D. L. EVANS begged to say one word. Reference
similar circumstance. should arise, and nothing of more had been made by the Secretary at War to the sanitary
importance showld be involved but the queetion of a condition of the troops at present, particularly those in the
ministry, he (Mr. Mowatt) for one would walk out of the West Indies. lie feared, however, that nothing had bum
house. (Oh, oh.) Ile wished now to ask the right hon. done in the crew of Burbadosai, where, owing to the locality
gentleman it he was prepared to withdraw as many soldiers of the barracks, sickness invariably prevails.
from the colonic', reserving those who were left as police. The committee then divided.
Lord J. RCSSELL rose to reply, and was greeted Fur Mr. Hume's amendment 3l
with loud cheers' which rendered his first observation Against it
inaudible. Ile said that his right hon. friend the
The amendment was accordi
we found
ngly lost.
Secretary at War hail gone at considerable length juts to the g
various questions connected with the army; and he had On returning allery
endeavoured to show what reductions he thought proper to Mr. WILLIAMS addressing the house. It was his in-
make, as well as why it was thought necessary that so large tention to move as an amendment that the cost of the
a force should be retained. Ile (Lord J. Russell) did nut Guards over and above the cost of an equal number of men
understand what the hon. gentleman meant by his charge in the line be disallowed, in support of whirls he would lay
whist himself. (Lima cheers.) some item before the house. After entering into various
Mr. MOWATT observed that a large portion of the statistical details, he concluded by saying that he was
gentlemen who cheered the noble lord were not present on aware that none but aristocrats of the first water or
the occasion referred to, and therefore he could not bow to their immediate connexions had much chance of getting
their decision on the point. The noble lord would recol- commissions in the regiments of Guards, but he did not see
tact that between twelve and one o'cloek, there having been what right they had to greater privileges than the other
only three gentlemen who had made any observations upon portions of the army. Ile thought the tune was come when
the estimates, it was evident that the house—he would nut' justice must be done to those gallant soldiers who had
pretend to investigate the cause—refused to hear any fur- fought their moon's battles, abroad—who went through
ther olgervation or argument whatever upon the subject. the Peninsular campaign and bled at Waterloo. The cows-
Upon that the hun. gentleman (Mr. Hume) said that in addi- try would no longer be content to sec men who had been
lion tothe unusual comae of granting after 12 o'clock solargc a thirty aad forty years in the service of their country unable
I vote as three millions, the house was wholly indisposed to to obtain that promotion which mere stripling, obtained
allow any discussion to take place upon the army ; and the after eleven or twelve years service in theiGuarde The hon.
noble lord appearea to think that that was extremely un- gentleman concluded by moving that the vote be reduced
reasenable. Ile (Mr. Mowatt), for one, had not opposed by 82,1131.
the first division—with reference to the number of men, Mr. FOX MAULE regretted that after the discussions
feeling that the period was drawing so near when the army which had taken place as to the relative merits of
could not he kept together my longer unless the money the Guards and regiments of the line, the honour-
and the Mutiny Act were voted. Ile there fore felt more able gentleman had thought it right to renew the
strongly the eta:Armes of preventing the further discussion attack on the regiments of Guards. He hoped, however,
of the subject. Ile did not mean to say the noble lord had the house at all events would nut go into that vexed mica-
himeelt joined in the interruption—looking at the position time Both parties had pleaded their cause. Ile should
he held, it could not he expected that he would—but the oppose the motion of the hon. gentlemen.
noble lord appeared to receive the interruption with great Colonel DONNE said that he could not agree to sweep
pleasure, and he had charged them (Mr. Muwatt's friends) away a number of the items with which the hon. member
with being unreasonable. He therefore slid think that he for Lambeth found fault. What he objected to with re-
was not abusing language when he said the noble lord I spect to the regiments of Guards was the rate of promotion,
availed him...Hof the obstruction to prevent their expressing ' and not the pay which they received. (Hear.)
their opinions. (Hear, hear.) , Mr. HOME said that he never objected to the pay of
Sir D. L. EVANS asked a question with reference to the I either officers or men in the army. He thought that the
allowance to married soldiers. He was aniuous to know pay was not enough either in the army or navy. (Hear,
whether the grant would be made to the six married men . hear.) What he complained of was this, that a cumber of
in every regiment? men more than was necessary for the service was maintained.
Mr. F. MAULE was UltderttOnd to reply that it was in. I The committee divided—
, tended to diminish, ae far as possible, the objectionable For the vote B4
practice of married men occupyina the same room with un- Fur the amendment
married. Now, if he recollected what he slated in evidence, I The vote was then agreed to.
it was this—teamely, that he was aware the allowance was On the vote of 159.932/. for the expenses of the general
insufficient for the purpose of providing them separate ac- stair officers,
lommodation. Ile proposed, therefore, to double the Mr. HUME complained that the general staff officers
amount of the sum; and he intended to ask the house to were kept up to an amount beyond what was necessary.
double the grant for that purpose. At the same time he lie found that there were general staff officers where then
thought that if, by increasing the allowance, three of the were only a few hundred men.
soldiers might be withdrawn from the room, accommodation Mr. FOX MAX LE said that reductions in the general
I might be found for the other three without making them staff heel been effected in Canada, the Cape, Australia, the
the allowance. (Hear, hear.) Leeward Islands, and St. Helena. It was necessary that
I Mr. MOWAT' asked how many regiments there were in there should be general officers even where the cumber of
the colonies, and when it was intended to reduce them? troops was small, to carry out the military law.
i Mr. FOX MAULE replied that the process of reduction : Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained in reference to the
Ikea been going on for some years, and that it had now pay of the commander-in•chief, which was 8,018/., that it
reached almost its utmost extent. (Hear.) was given in consequence of the rank and station which he
Mr. lICME complained that opportunities for bringing held in the army. He thought the commander-in-chief
lon subjects were very rare. lie had been trying for three should be paid a distinct salary for his services, without
years to bring on a single question,—namely, the reduction any regard to his rank or station in the army. He did not
of the number of admirals from 150 to 100, but without make thew observations in reference to the distinguished
success. Their only chance was in going into supple, and individual who now held the office of commander in-chief,
therefore he wanted hon. members to interest themselves in but whenever the office became vacant he thought that a
these very expensive establishments. He wished to know , change should be made.
whether the time had not come when they ought to consider After a few words from Mr. Here, the vote was
how they could maintain these 98,000 men at the least par : agreed to.
Bible cost, consistently with the efficieecy of the force? ; On the vote of 92,71-3., for allowances and contingent
Mr. Hume concludea some further observations, illus. : expenses.
traced by statistics, by protesting against the system I Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he did not see why the coun-
of the 'Guards, or any pet corps, and saying try should be burdened with the expense of a deputy
I that gentlemen might talk as they pleased, but judge-advocate-general when the duties were so light.
it was impossible that the country could be relieved Mr. FOX MAULE said that the duties were not so light
' from taxation so lung as they spent between four and five as the hon. gentleman supposed, seeing that questions re..