The Express.
London, England, 1856-06-24 00:00:00

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then were ee`to,te :neigh for the ideation of childrea
of every Cenominatics, they would attend their
7eatil to all, provided that it wee usderstood
the groats would be immediately withdraws if the prin-
ciples of the b and were violated. Other relaxatioss might,
an doubt, be devised. (Hear, hear.) Then the question
swore, what he (•h. right hole. gentleman) was to do with
regard t o this motion ? If it went to ober *stem of rettiod
iog the rote of the house the other night, be could by no
means agree to it ; but he had shown that it did not, god
that the address ot,gt-t be worded without bele, sub-
versive of the existing system. (Hear, beer) He bad
shown that the &ditties sad the motion might very well
stand together; eel be thought it only resaleable that they
shoats ; far be believed the principles embodied in both to
be sound—(riser, 11.0—that there might be difficulti:s in
startyiug the ei it t t efleet Its did not deny ; bet he believed
that they night 1 c overcome, and he thought they ought to
be overcoat. (Hear) The question bad lea( agitated the
y Alit mind, but it was now in their power to settle it. If
however, that was to he door, he was sere it could oatf be
by portents and mol.ration on both sides. The noble
vutosnt had achie•ut many triumphs in his tine ; but if he
add. d this to fu list, it woeld not hr the least bright of the
lolanda the or b!, :,,rd had woo (Cofer') Tim right hoe.
patent's cos eluded by announcing his Wootton to support
the action.
Mr. LAM:CHIME accepted Mr. Walpole's assuranee
that he had no iareata.n to overeat the system of national
edueaticie la Ireland, but conteaded teat his motion would
practeally have that effect.
Mr. CAIRNS aces" d the ministry of a watt of condoor
and courage is provraieg an indirect revelation instead of
boldly challeeeing the bogie to rescind its previous vote.
Lord J. RUSSELL state I es a matter of fact that he bad
himself been urgent from the division on Tuesday night,
seder a per.nasion that the debate would have been ad-
journed. He regretted the vote that was then curried, es-
pecially as fr urn is peculiar form there was no opporteoiry
afforded for rev.sion or reccusideration. He mussented to
.

;dopt the resolution now presented, though wishing that it
had offered a mom direct negative to the previous address.
The noble lord th- a aoalysed the terms of that address I own
(he esid) it seems to me to go far beyoad, not only what he hes
ezplaieed, but beyond what ha eves seems to have 'steadied.
It appear. to me that the role being equality, he propose.
to introduce inequality ; that the rale being religiose
liberty, he prepos. • to iateodnee religious exclusion ; that
the present nee of thimes being harmony, his aldrem
seethes ea with discord. (Cheers.) That is shortly the
rotor* of the olj .ction which I entertain to the yropoeal of
the right hon. penal/man. New, first with regard to the
eque:ity which now prevails. The hon. gentleman who
spoke last Rave us two or three instance. in which he said
the board bad sot tattooed their owe rale.. They were
not, I think, instances of great isportaaes : I do not
know the t articulate, and I leave It to Oben to refute
them, or if they canuot he refuted, my right hon. friend the
Secretary for Ireland will r o doubt call the attention of the
board to any deviation from the ruler. Bat I observe that
the bon gentlemen and others sitting on the other side of
the hones call them sAvea friends of the system of national
education in Ire!ant. They ars tonality the most candid
friends I ever wet with, Dotson they no sooner declare their
fru mishit) to the resent system than they proceed to paten
out ehn fault liter &ember, which nothing bat the utmost
c odour would induce toes to Ao. Now, what is the plea
laid down by Lord Derby, and which ha been acted once
since. It is that reiini,ms instruction shall not be gives
duri:g.el of hours. There are boon in which religious M-
atra: t o is vies in in the schoolr, during which all children
whose parrots otjter. to their receiving religions instraction,
are et liberty to be absent. The right boa. gentleman says
he will have • modification, that la metals sebco's. which
are celled nos reeved echo ls, being proprietary schools of
protistaar, and chic e, church of Eogiaad, owners, there
shall prevail a rale that the Scriptures shall be mad by all
th• children ettenchog them. N iw, it is obvious that you
would, for the presses at least, introise. Inequality, because,
with regstd to ft 'maa eatholic and preshytenaa schools,
there is no obligation for the children to attend
when rel files iastr-ctien is Sires. Bat then it
may be said that that equality might be re-
stored by all 11, mesa catholic. in the schools
la • bite they have a prevailing is detente, to teach their •
chorott catechism to all the children attending their ash tole.
Bot will this tosses consist to a groat for such a
purl o.e ? What wool t be the holier of the house, what
would be the feel:air of the opuatry, if they were told that
150,001.7. or 200.0001. was given to school, in which the Bo-
sses cello lie religion we. taught, and that orwestaot chit-
dee a were o'olig.d to rename to hear it 1 (Hear, hear.)
Why, the cry ',avid be that they were eadeavouriag to
make proselytes ; sad it would be said besides, If the pro-
te.tant children were all sway, that it was an enormous sum
granted for the prnpegaiioa of error; and if our comedown
would sot allow as to grant 30,0001. • year for the education
of priers at Illeyaectli, how was it poesible that we Gould
grout 200 0001. a year to educate children in Boman catholic
tenets ? ( Chinn) The right hon. pettiest's, however,
said, " will remedy all that ; we will adopt something
like the system that is established In Begfaad, and if there
ors R sass co holie 'tilde's they may gate Boman estimate
schools in the oeighboarhoed. Why that is steam a labeler-
mem of the whole system ; Nis at ease ratlines' end to that
mixed alum of 'duet' on, net mined with regard to reli-
gion, but sited with regard to per out, which at primal
exists. Yon go then and instead of giving theme skald:ea
as impartial rale yea must give them • topographies.' sea-
selatioe. (Cheers sad learner.) Bat let as come nett
to the iairngeneett of rlisious liberty, which would be the
effect of the troposel of the right hon. gentleman. It wet
es* of the veiled declarations of Lord Stanley, whoa he et-
tablaked this system, that the religiose teaching should only
take place whoa the dodders of those who objected might
be absent, aad in aa.wer to a deputation tram the synod of
Ulster, very aeon after the formation of the maimed board,
speaking of the beats for teenler education, said, "them
been, be they mere or fewer, will be allotted to olor
nudes., and in them, of mum, neither the Bible nor
any other book will be used to which the parents would
obje:t, or with regard to which they have reli items
scruples. The proposal to read suck books daring
the ordinary school hours, soapily, when ell the childres
would be obliged to a•tead would be a palpable AOlllOOll of
religious liberty and freedom of consciruce. I have, there-
fore the authotity of Lewd Derby for saying that the prone-
eition of the right hon. pod, man involves in it a palpable
violation of religious liberty and freedom of sonatina,. I •
am told that Lord Derby is not of the same *Maims now. I
am sorry for it. I Innate follow his changes of opinion. 1
hat w what Tie opinion. wheteethen he was the colleens. of
Lord Grey and Lord Brougham. I believe that his oplaious
at that time were the round opinions ; they have bees the
essaesenel °Mahone, end I ehould be sorry for hie own sake,
and far the mke of the country that he should contribute to
the sissioiug of that work whoola den him so mach credit
Well, thee, we an hardly my that the abolit on (debts
rule, by which religious instruction is not to be
given except at certain hours, Is is any way
necessaryfor the purposes of thenadeuel seln-
cotion. The hopoorable pathless who spoke last
said that if he wished to make proselytes, that If the
church of England or the Wesleyan. wished he make prose-
lyte, v e present way was the moat canavebient way ; that
otter the school hours they might ask the children to attend
during the boar of religious iastructios, sad that their in.
fleeces would enehle them to encored. Well, but If that
I. so, .bat is the vegeta that they ask for charge 1 Be
coos be it observed what the presbjtertans have dote
The presbyteries's, in 1810, after various tepreeente-
tl.me, got this or ffer, that sll the children, after
certain hoary, should have the bible read to them,
except such as, having coascientions objectless, wished
to be abttot. Now I cannot agree that the pushy-
terisos in Ireland aro not es good peotesttnts as any to be
foetid in that country, and I ask Irby it is that this whole
system is to be disturbed ? why it is that this house and that
Ireland itself era to be put late dread and commotion, in
order to adopt a plan which the experienae of the presby-
teries. has shown to be uonecceeary ? I mace give them
credit for acrop:a of a Ilitlf•CO, I cannot say it lemon than
pride and love of supremacy which still hassle apes these who
cry cot so loudly I r protestant edweatisse. I cannot say that
they would not have easily the mess el mediag the bible
in the ec.cole, aid allowing the Bumaaelallbelle shUdito to
go away. This Is • quieten that Waal Sallesallasels, and
what you pro: nee is to introdeee a ',INV, wtleb, If sp.
plied to that 2.700 solicit le, would be epreashe to the mi-
aority, and deprive them of the religioes liberty they now
enjoy. I sae, lastly, that instead of harmony this alteration
would produce dibened. Let the house madder for •
sweetest what it is we have been enabled to do.
Half a watery ago, when the Date el Bedford wee
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, he bad • conespondirsc•
with tearer ea to issuing a communises, to Jogain foto the
general state ef *due:stint. la Ireland. That commission wee
appolated in 1812, and the report was produced whisk leu
bees so often adverted to. • report laying dews the euly
Jost principle. namely. " that no plan for edoeutioe Mae
rith poor, however wi•ely framed in other respects, tea be
serried into effectual operation anises it be clearly avowed
se its leading prim iple, that to attempt be made to disturb
the religious tweets of say deoominatioe. I quite agree
with the ho-. gentlemen who 'poke last, that the praetical
proposal of those coannissioaers did not terry into effect
that prinoip:o. b:t iogairise went os, the subject was still
dimmed. and In 1828 the presets' Lord Moatesale presided
ever • sleet toasty.' of this house, is which he gave the
outline of the very plan which bee been sloes adopted. In
1831, I ord Stanley gave the outlines of the plan which was
then adopted by the executive government of Imbued. It
has both said that nos-vested scboA. Menefee part of that
plea, but I h. here that of the first eight aelieete that wete
founded, sot lees than four were nos-vested. Therolore
the plan laid down was on the very pried* that has since
been acted zoos. That there have bees groat varieties of
detail, :hat there have been sinus:isms from time to time,
la order to make the ileum week, I folly admit, and what
plan is there on • subj.'s of this importetiee, tad adapted to
a eouatry in the ',twit is which Ireland we,. in whisk there
wore various religious meta having great suspicion
• f cub ether, and what plea is there that would not re-
medilleation from time to time? (Hear, bear) Noes
• ithese 'noddle twos have touched the sentattal principles
M the plasm laid doers is 1831 You have, bees • quarter of
• asetaey employed in Investigation. with a view to get a
plea for the education of Ireland. You have hied soother
quarter eta oratory, diaries which that plan has bees la operation, sad kith 114,71 lost hat bats predated.* of
(vest.v and increasing hosieings_(,l".")_," haw hsd
the plan notifying religions aa,moeitie.„ giving Ispeevd
hails to the reetile. testbag the yaps( principles of
operate, which, la their own ill-regulatedesheole aev
resehed the lower dames. ia that =cost el
(P.
that yam may found epos that the endemism them
habits at social warier. and whitest*, whist have been
is leas the ralefortane of that beemdful eity mud
ef that people at this time, when by Ibelt •

century of labour you have attained so far, then soma a
gentleman to this house and says, I will brisk la sport all
this—(meeers);-1 will pat an end to this unanimity ; I will
make catholic, jealous of protestant*, and protetsatsjealons
of catholic,. I will induce protestsate again to join sad de-
fece that lair work *halt has boom effeet,d." (Cheers.) I
have no dooM of the sincerity of the right hon. geotlemen.
I have no doubt that he thinks he is satisfying the coneelem
ties. scruples of church of England and other protestant',
and that he is only adding • supplement to the
seheme of national education. I entreat him to dismiss
that thought from his mmd. So far from its being a sop-
Newest, his plan would not be introduced • week bat he
world Sad that huh the eminent Roman catholiee and pro-
testant* who had awed upon the board would dad it impos
'able for them to lrad their had to this plan of compulsory
education, they would rein from that board, and none
would take their place but men who ars exposed to all the
jealousy and hostility of the Roman cathollo popu-
lation of Ireland—of men who are only desirous to
gain an advantage to their pony. I trait that
so !nag as this vverement remotes is power
they well make ao essestial alteration in this system, that
they will adhere mentally to its principles, and that if the
plan is to be altered the right hoe. gentleman opposite and
hie supprrters may be the parties to carry that alteration
into shut, and let them reap the bitter froito that will
. (had Cheers.)
Mr. NAPIER de:ended the church schools, asserting
their right to • share in the national provision for education.
Mr. UORSMAN maintained that the principles embodied
in the former addrets were direetly antagonistic to these as
which the minimal system of education was founded, and
emanated from • party who bad always evinced a flora
hostility against that system. By carrying oat the 'darns,
they would put an end to the practice of combined ode's-
dos, and introduce the denominntiosal Grotto. Whoa

adfoad grants were accorded to ezelasiiely protestant
minds, tho same aid meld not be reflood to catholic
'chocks, and thio consequence would to to break up an or-
ganivation that now worked asofally ad aarmoniously,
and 'abstains for it a series of scholia In each of whl
some particular religion would be taught, and which would
Mears* the organs of proselytism and centrits of sectaries
admiralty.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN supported the resolution' considering
it directly antegonistie to the address adopted a few days
before by a chance majority.
Mr. OROGAN regretted that the resolution had sot been
met by a direct negative, instead of • dractionable accept-
ance from the supporters of the former 'address. He pro-
posed, as as amendment, the addition of a sentence de-
claring that no whoa' should be dimintitled to aid from the
national grants because the Scriptures were read by its
behold,.

Mr. HAMILTON defended the Irish Church Educitioa
Sosiely.
Lora BERNARD moved the adjournment of the debate.
Lord PALMERSTON remonstrated against the poet-
'slimmest of a decision on a question which had, he thought,
been sufficiently diseared.
Mr. I BUTT lolieved that the resolutioo was both by
lit otios and senor • direct re 00000 lof the address. The
attempt to reommile the two, made
.by Mr. Walpole, re
gutted thetthem meaaing should be interpreted is a Ma-
uston' sense.

On a division the motion for adjournment wee negatived
by • asks's, of 33110 60-281.
Mr. OROGAN arpsaled to the noble viscount to consent
to the adj .isenearnt of the debate.
Mr. GEORGE said the resolution of the boa. member
for Loath was trosseived so much in the spirit of Loyola that
it was impossible to agree upon the sense is which it was to
be takes. He would appeal to the home bow much hon.
members were sow wiser—(lsughter)—with regard to the
inteatisse of the goverament than they were before ? (Hear,
beer.) He would now, therefore, although it mu much
after the eleventh boar—(laughter)—ask the noble lord to
state the seam ia which they rejected the motion.
Viscount PALMERSTON—Usdesbtedly, eir for those
who wish the debeta to be prolonged,the masa tar the
adjournment of tee house mews not to be flat the beat
mode of accomplishing their °eject, for of semi dm rash
would be that the motion would be dropped. (Laughter
and theirs.) The hoe. gentlemen says he la not such
much wiser for the speeches he has beard. I don't know
whether we should be much wiser for those that are in re•
serve—(laughter)—but I really do hops the house will go
to a divtatea. • (Cheers.) I an inked in what seam her
Majesty's gothrament undierstaad the resolution ? The
sense is• whisk we Indentand that resolution Is that, if
serried, it would express the °Oaths of the hosse—sa opi•
aion upon which her Mejestp's government would act—
that so 4 cheap should be made—( eeeee cheoriog)—no
oblige la the regulations tai practice in regard to pubic
pasta for odetetwa to Ireland. (Cheer) 1 must say. sir,
that eossideriath the great importance of this enbject,the deep
interest which is felt I. it, the great mischief that would
arise from re-mantis, those religious diorites which have so
happily been clued—(ebeers)—l thick that a unanimous
vote of the house noes the reeelatioa moved by my hon.
Mead. sad I must add so boaciambly mentioned by the
right hoc gentlemaa (Mr. Walpole), would be a wiser ter-
mination than say which would be come to even after the
speoshes whisk we are called upon to adjourn la order that
we may bear. (Laughter, and chews.) Every one must
ham made up hie mood Wen now. This question is not a
mew one. and I venters to say there is rot a man in the
boom whose opinion would be isitheaced by anything ha
might hear. sad cheers.) I therefore call epos
the beers to °eternise whether the system of odimat'oe fa
Ireised—the lathed system of oducatios—w Isiah his conferred
swab great heseltes that country, and which, if persevered
is, will seafer still greater,—whether that system, I say,
shosld methane or be put as end to—whether religious
peace is to be established to 'related, or whowhither religious
war rte be deafened. (Cheers.) Them, els, ere the ease/-
tithe ape. whisk this house has to vote, sad upon which I
press fee as immediate deaths. (Load ahem.)
Kr. DISRAELI intended to vote for the motion, but be
protested easiest being supposed to sues the government
aterpretatioa of it. Every hon. gentleman was mast rof
the tease which he put upon any resolution for which he
voted. He approved c f the notional system, lied he should
never have voted with his right hoe. friend if halted throes tit
tut the eddies, agreed to previously was inconsistent with
the fusdauseatal priaciples of that system.
. _

• •
Mr. BUTT .aid the right hon. gentleman the member
for the University of Caw Wage had accepted the resolution
In a totally diffsrest sense from that now pat on it by the
noble list
The lasso then d ivided—
For the seljoarsasest
Against it
Tito BPBAKIIII then pat the mein gaieties and the
sassdaaat, on which the house divided, with the foilowiag
malt:

---Ftr Wm antesdnest 96
Assiut it
The «thud resolution use then pat and mug to with-
out a division.

tionottlt Wso meiotid with show flout both skim of dot
loam

SARDINIAN LOAN BILL.
This bill pawed throseh cwitesittese.
Is answer te Mr. BOWTI/L,
Lord PALMERSTON said the psrpose of RIM hill bad
greedy bees captained. It wee sot for purposes of revels.
ties, hat to enable the Sardisias government to hear a part
lithe ezpaue of their essetssids is tbe Crimea. (Row.)
It was the wish of the governsiest to seaport the Statutes
gsverameat, Wheel's It to be minuted by taligbtimed
views. (Cbsers4

TM ether orders tbe day won &Pp reed of, sad the
house aatioaradal at a few "assess to 2 ce, look.

/Mt Court.

The Queen, Prince Albert, end the Princess Royal
reds en borretiaak yesterday morning, socomemaird by
Prises Frederick of Preens. Tice Hoe. Flora
Maadosald, Beton Moltke, Lord Charles Fitzroy, sad Cap-
tain the Boa. D de Ba. &tended.
The Melt Hoe. Charles Pelham Villiers, :edge Advo-
cate Onerel, bad an audience nth. Q 114•11 in the aftierane,
and onlemltned to her Majesty tho proceedisp of somo
coarte-martial.
The Prises of Wales redo on honsback, sad Primo Leo-
pold Seek • dein aa *pen garnets aad fear.
Prises Frederick William of Freesia visited Polon Oscar
of Sweden yesterday at Cigna's', Hotel.
Prises Albert and Felon nodal& William of Preside
redo ea bensbeek in the ertssassa.

-
Me ieety aad the Prise Covert henered the per-
femme ore. Pliiiimarmeeie Cowen with their presease
la the swiss. Her /depot, mod his Royal Heehaw wee
saiseymand by te Primes of Wee the Preens tyal
the Prisms. Alit., sad Prises Piediriek Willis. of
Prue% The Royal puty sad thelmdle and Gestemies
is Weida( ems pied ma of the Queen's serrieseei sad left
&whir ghost Palamat Ave mimeos Mete eight "Week.
The royal suite 'misted of the Deem of Weilingt
the Deem of Athol!, the His. Oneene Caveade, the
Hon. Fiera Maselmuld, Hal Apses% Lee fewerd ; Mar-
lois of Broodiness', Lord Cheeses& ; the Dike of Wel-
-1 elts% Master .1 the Horn; the Marquis of Meters,
Orem of ins ditole to the Priam ; Lird &Tem Lord Hens
Lee% Berea Moitk% Bss Edward Bowater Miner-Gee-
rel W Ado, Lord Clarke Fitaroy, Caetais the Hon. D. de
Rai, leatenet de Sct reelwasteia, Dr. Weiser, sad Mr.
(Let.
At tbe Drawing-rem en the 20tit instant Lady Hay-
wood was piessated to the Pena rpm her marriap, by
the Dowager Lady Hoe, wood.
Mr. Campbell Allatilo4l, Alt,T•ll7-011010fla fw Bahasase,
sad the Hon. &H. W.Bellain,from Hew Zwalead,haii iate
Maw yesterday with Mr. Breretery Laboadtemi. Biz
Curies Nieheleon had ale a letertiaw with the r4ll hoe.
'sateen at the Celenial-edise.
Lee Penman he • dieser petty yesterday at his 'sod-
den'', in fielgre•-wiesre. The seapiay iaslN.L the
Marquise( Lansdowne the Marehiens.a of Breeden%
Lee and Led" &ask; it Aiderley, Si Charles and Lady
Mary Wee Lady Jaw Clbeateris.MeSpairsidr. fiterelsry
Lebanese% Oohed Labe sod ILL Ireoisk Peel.
?Wieldiest Onnesinee of tke Privy Cease eat yeti r-
day. Present—The Chowder of the Daley et Cenwall,
Sr
Jahn Puttee% Si, Wiese Markle, sad Dr. Lathing-
io". Tim appeal hem the Prerogative Cetus W York,
Brows v. Plea," peso hand, was ceeeiede, sadan ap-
e..l tree the Proroopoit Omit. " Fodor v. Lea," was
plrl loud.