The Express.
London, England, 1848-05-27 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY

Windsor Issprovesseat Bin to say messy that would
otherwiee come into the a that house. The Tell-
way 'stoney was in lien o a certain amount of aoootrantods-
tion, by throwing open grounds In the exclusive posesesion
of her Majesty, end without whose ooneent they eon no
mere be interfered with than the private garden of the hon.
member.
Mr. AGLIONBY said he held in his hand an entirely
different statement, on the authority of the government—
namely, that the 60,0001. to be had from a railway company
was public money, and ought to be treated as gush.
Lord IdORPETH had nothinng moreni re to add, es
'thas,
t
before the house was called upohe quail/i
the fullest infortamion should be afforded, and every sadder
tory proof given that it was not intended by the bill te
pose any bosh burdens on the public.
DUBLIN ELECTION COMMITTEE.
The names of the committee (fur which see &puss of
yesterday) appointed to try the merits of the petition against
the return at the late election having been called over, and
Lord R. Grosvenor not having arrived. at 6 o'clock,
Mr. F. MAULE itenitlst some hilarity) said it was his
painful duty to move that he be committed to the custody of
the Scrsteent.at-arms.
Sir R. INGLIS urged the importance of a regular per-
sonal service in these roses; and, afters few words from Mr.
EWAUT and Mr. T. EUNKTON,
The motion was agreed to, but soon after the Sergeant-at-
arm Marius announced that the noble lord wee in custody,
Mr. W. COWPER !said he was authorised by his noble
friend to mate that having been engaged presiding at aI
public meeting, he inadvertently remained too long—(a
laugh)—and regretted his absence extremely. lie, there-1
fore, moved that the noble lord should be forthwith illi-
cit's:teed. (neer. hear.)
Mr. F. MAULE, in seconding the motion, inggestoll,
that considering the noble lord's many benevolent
menu—(hear, hear)—it should be without payment:PlT
The motion was immediately agreed to, and the committee
being called again were sworn, excepting Mr. Bright, who
took the attirenetton, after a short apology from Lord R.
Grosvenor for having delayed the house.
COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES.
Lord DUNCAN, as chairman of one of the committees on
the civil estimates, said (in reply to Mr. Hume) that the
committee were proceeding as speedily as possible, but he
could eel Lily when their labours would termtnate, and, I
therefore, could not promise a repeat at any particular
period.
MARINE INSURANCE.—PROBATE AND LEGACYI
DUTIES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said (I'o
reply to Mr. Wawn) that the government had no intention
of proposing any reduction of the Marine Insurance Duty
and (in reply to Sir D. L. Evans) that he did not consider
there was such an inequality between the probate and legacy
duties as the honourable and gallant member alleged.
INDIRECT TAXATION.
On the motion that the Speaker leave the chair for goimg
into a committee of supply.
Mr. EWAILT rose to call the attention of the house to the
motion of which he had given notice : That the present
eyn-
tern of disproportionate indirect taxation is iejurtous to the
commerce and manufactures and unjust to the working
climes of the country and that the esuiblishinent of • more
direct system of taxation
an on realised property would re
trade and manufactures, and be eventually beneficial to all
glasses of the community. The hon. gentleman made a few
remarks in support of these propositions, but concluded
without making any motion, trusting that the government
would not exclude the subject from their constderation, with • I
view to some practical step in the way of substituting direct
for indirect taxation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
large reductioea had recently been made in the indirect
taxation of the country, while the taxation substituted was
direct. It could not be said, therefore, that the government
had not already prac:ically considered the question. They
had every wish to go further, but in the present state of the
revenue he could not hold out any hope of their doing so.
THE RAJAH OF SA'PTARA.
Mr. G. THOMPSON, referring to the order of the day
for the adjourned debate on this subject, asked if the govern-
ment could sive him an early day for it, if ho consented to
forego it for that evening? A recent death had so changed the
aspect of affairs as to render it necessary to hear the opinions
of the government without much delay.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
make any promise on the subject.
Mr. G. THOMPSON gave notice that in that case, when
they arrived at the order (which was last on the list) he
would put a question to the government, as to what course
they meant to pursue for tilling the vacant throne of the ex-
Rajah.
C kLEDONIAN RAILWAY BILL.
Mr. lie ARD (in reply to Mr. Hume) explained the grounds
on which the Admiralty bad consented to allow the Cale-
donian Railway to cross the Clyde. The authorities at
Glasgow thinking it desirable to have a station at Glasgow,
and the bridge trustees haying withdrawn their opposition,
th Admiralty reconsidered the question, and eig that
noe injury would scums to the harbour consented to the
measure.
The Earl of LINCOLN wee satisfied that the Admiralty
had done its duty in ti e matter, and that no blame could
attach to that department. Ile, however, hoped that care i
would be taken that the parties who had relied upon the
Admiralty should not be damnified by that which was some-
thing like a fraud practised upon the board.
Mr. B. COCHRANE complained that this matter should
have been brought forward without any notice to the parties
interes'ed, in whose absence the noble lord (the Earl of Lin•
coln) ought not to impute fraud to them.
After a few words from Mr. Ward. Mr. Macgregor, Mr.
Hsotie (Ola goer), Mr. Aglionby, and Mr. Hume, the con-
versation dropped.
SUPPLY.
Mr. HUME inquired whether the right hon. baronet the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was prepared, before going into
a committee of supply, to state to the house in what way he
proposed to provide for the deficiency of 3,000,0001. ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he did
not at present propose to make any statement on that subject.
The house then went into committee, Mr. 13sitsisr. in the
chair.
Mr. WARD said he most now ask the committee to give
him a further vote on account, under three different heads,
of the estimates for the service of the navy during the pre-
sent year. He did not propose to take the whole estimate in
any of them, but only a portion of each, and to leave the re-
maining balance for subsequent discussion. The first vote
he moved was, that a further sum of 300,0001. be granted
to her Majesty to defray the charge of the wages of seamen
and marines, the number being already agreed to.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether, after the evidence
which had been taken before the select committee on public
expenditure, the government had adopted any measures to
reduce the expenditure in the department of the navy, which
was now nearly double the amount it had been in former

years.
Mr. WARD replied that, without anticipating what the
report of the committee might be, the government had taken
every opportunity of effecting every practical economy in the
department of the public service with which he was con-
nected. Hired men in the dockvirds, whose term; of service
had expired, had been parted with ; and, from the introduc-
tion of steam sawing-machinery, and by other modes, the
naval estimates for the ensuing year would be reduced by no
less a sum than 600,0001.
Captain HARRIS said he had • suggestion to make,
which be admitted was not one of economy, but still of
great public importance. It was, that firexclaas
line of-
battle ships should be fitted and sent out to foreicn stations,
instead of the clam of men of war new employed in this
branch of the service.
Admiral DtINDAS said, the great rbject of the Admi-
ralty wu to wear out their old ships; but they were now
rending out vessels which would be quite ready to meet any
opposing force.
Capt. PECHELL expressed a hope that, if he abstained
now from bringing forward the claims of the commanders,
lieutenants, and two other classes in the naval service, he
should not he met on a future occasion by the assertion that
ho had omitted to avail himself of the fitting opportunity.
He only now abstained in order that he might not interpose
any obstacte in the course of her Majesty's government.
Mr. S. HERBERT understood that the three heads of
estimates under which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ward) pro-
posed to take votes on account, were first for the wages of
seamen and marines, next for stores, and, lastly, for half-
pay. Was that so ?
Mr. WARD replied in the affirmative.
Mr. HUME drew the attention of the committee to the
cue of the asaistint-surgeons of the navy. These gentlemen
were required to have s higher qualification in three or four
branches of medical science than' either the College of Sur-
geons in London or in Edinburgh could require, and yet
these gentlemen who must have attained the age of 2.5 years
were placed on board ship among a parcel of youths, who
were midshipmen or matea. Such being the fact, the com-
mittee would not be surprised to hear that a week ago Si
William Burnett, the physician-general, had not a 'Oriole
candidate for the appointment of evident-surgeon in the

navy,
Capt. BERKELEY said that the Admiralty did its ut-
most to secure the hest medical advice for the men in the
service, and he had never before heard of there being the
slightest difficulty in finding candidates for the office of AM
instant surgeon. It would be impossible to provide for them,
however, in the ward-ronm without interfering with the
working the guns and with the discipline of the ship.
Mr. ELLIOT reminded the hon. member for Mont-
rose that the midshipmen and tea cs were not of the lowest
class, but generally the sons of high and noble families; and
therefore it surely could be no disgrac to any assistant our•
geon to mix in such company.
Mr. HUME could not forget that they were boys, and
that the assistantnurgeons were men whose studies were in-
terfered with.
Mr. COBDEN said he wished to take this opportunity of
referring to a subject which, though in some degree personal
to himself, he should not revert to but that he felt it affected
the efficiency of the service and the economy of the public
expenditure. On a former occasion reference had been
made to a statement he (Mr. Cobden) had uttered in Man-
chester on the subject of a line of-battle ship lying in the
harbour of Malta. When he made that statement he was
speaking in the midst of personal friends, whom he
told that ho had sun a ship lying at Malta from
November to March ; that he had thin gone to Egypt, and
on his return had found the same ship lying there ttilL An
attempt had then been made to make it appear that, instead
of speaking of a matter which bad occurred ten or eleven
years ago, he bad referred to the stlte of things last year ;
but he must remind the committee that he made the state-
ment to persons who knew that he had net been to Egypt
lest year, and could therefore have at once known the state-
ment was false. Though a sort of quarter-deck contradic•
tion had been given in that house to his statement at Man-
chester, the fact that ships lay for a long time in the harbour
of Malta remained unanswered. Since then a perfect
stranger had furnished him with information that the loge of
ships wire kept at Somerset Souse, and that by moving for

them he could obtain • return of the logs of the ships ,
t:
question. He: had piqued .for .. and otrCd.
return id . deisfiE... f Ir. „Llt,
liird=lro i lin , l'.11;•.-Of 1/ '
he sefoltilt • Pri Ch ' id.peraegueolit4
ItaltreFla Sth is( 0 *l's . t.414110th et
1838 c a 'eel OuOthat Oa tdiurrh Mse
Queen, 10 gnu, lay re from the 7th of Ottolter, 1042,
the 16th of September, 1843, • period of eleven months an,
eight days, without ever raising her anchor. He was as.
=red by • friend who had as ward • midshipman on board
that ship, that the expense and demoralipation arising from
the lengthened stay in harbour was absolutely ruinous, and
that when the ship went out•
• vast number of the crew were
so tea-rick as to be unable to perform the ship's service.
(Laughter.) It would be remembered that the hon. and
gallant admiral below him (Admiral Dundee) had on •
former occasion read an extract of a letter from Sir William
Parker, the present commander of the Mediterranean
equadron, expressing hi. astonishment at the stAte-
ment ho (Mr. Celitlen) had made, and et'.:lng an
impression that he had stated :natters which could not
be borne out by facts. Now, these returns further showed
that the Mibertria was lying in Malta harbour from Aug.
26, 1846, to March 28, 1840, being seven months and two
days, without ever raising an anchor. Ile brought thee,
facts forward on public grounds. What he had stated at
Manchester wee, that he had seen a ship I) ing at Malta
with 800 or 000 men on board for six months, preducing
thereby great demoralisation, and a vast expense in every way.
As to demoralisation, they all knew what • region in that
respect Malta was mid when they were told that a line-of -
battle ship had on board from 30 to 40 junior officers, ouch sa
midshipmen and mates, who were the sons of high and noble
families, he put it to the committee whether anything could
be worse than for such • party to remain 10 or 11 mouths
together in such a harbour as that of Malta. Under all
:hese circumstances he thought it would be satisfactory if
the hon. and gallant admiral (Dundee) should state to the
house whether be thought such a practice VIM consistent
with the efficiency of the service, or the proper economy of
the public expenditure.
Admiral DUNDAS stated that .inre the preseet board had
been in office, ships had not been allowed to remain in her.
Lour, and it was contrary to the rules of the service that they
should be so. It would have been well it the hon. member
had Riven the committee the isformation of what the Queen
Charlotte had done after remaining the winter in harbour,
foe then the committee would have learned that she went to
Acre, and led in all the operations there, and had never
been one month at Malta since. Un a former occasion he
(Admiral Dundee) had read the communication received from
the American Consul, and did not retract a word from his
former obeervations, in reference to the statement that the
hon. member had ma a ship lying at Malta with 1,000 men

0o board.
Mr. COBDEN said his informant might have misled him
as to the precise number of men, but this he could state that
the Queen Charlotte, of 110 guns, had on board 1,119 per-
sons, of whom 225 were supernumereries, leaving about 900
as the complement of men on board. But the question was
whether the broad facts he had stated were or were not de-
serving the attention of the committee and the government,
and he hoped he might be allowed to say in an gold humour
that the hon. and gallant admiral had more than once con-
tradicted him in a manner of which any independent mem-
ber would have a right to complain, lie had been contra-
dicted when he stated that there was no ship of war at Can-
ton at the time of the recent murder of the
English subjects in China. Since that contradiction he had
received a letter from China reiterating the fact. That latter he '
had shown to the bon. and gallant admire 1, who merely re-
marked—" Well all I can say 1., it they were not there they
ought to have been there.( Laughter.) However well
this manner might do on a quarter-deck, it was not the
mode in which business ought to be transacted on the their
of that house; and he trusted the hon. and gallant admiral
would for the future be accurate as to his own information
before he contradicted any hont. member. (Hear.)
Admiral DUNDAS meat that since the statement with
respect to there being no ships at Cantos at the time men-
tioned, he had inquired at the Admiralty, and found there
were orders that no ship of war bad any nest there.
Capt. BERKELEY thought the hon. member for the
West Riding ought to have obtained, in addition to theta he
had read, returns of the services which the ships named had
performed while on the Mediterranean station.e If so he
would have found that it was nsnessary as th admiral
was employed in a somewhat dielomatio capacity—it was
necessary his ship should remain at Malta. It would have
been found also that by the mediation of British naval com-
manders (Capt. Codrington, for instance) peace had been
maintained between belligerent parties in many of the ports
where disputes had arisen.
Mr. kiliblE rejoiced that the hon. memLer near him
Mr. Cobden) had thus triumphed over the attempt to run
him down by the impression created that there had been no
truth in his statement. Ile had, however, shown that it was
accurate, not merely in respect to one but to three ships of
war which had beau on the Malts station.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said he hail read the speech made
by the hon. member opposite (Mr. Cobden) on the occasion
which had given rise to the subsequent inquiry and discus-
sions. In that speech he had impugned the character of the
British navy, deseribinE the officers as skulkirg from duty.
He had spoken of the Duke of Wellington as a drivelling
old man, and had spokenof both services in a manner which
was disgraceful not only to a member of that house hut to
o
any Englishman. (Cries of " Oh, oh.") The honoura'i
member had, in the speech referred to, used language which
was wholly unbecoming his position.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER interposed,
and expressed a hothat his hon. friend (blr. Cobden)
would not take an netice of the warm expressions used. It
was uite clear that tbe statements made by his hon. friend
were q
perfectly true• and it really would be a waste of mime
further to discuss the matter.
Mr. BULLING conceived that the hon. member fur the
West Riding bad unjustly abused the navy. if the ships
lay in harbour he abused the admirals, and said they were
afraid to ge to sea: and if they were active they were equally
abused. What would he have them to do ? (Hear.
Mr. BRIGHT said it was desirable for the house to rid
Itself of the idea that the cervices of the army and navy were
sot to come under as rigorous discussion, and undergo as
searching an investigation, as they were accustomed to ex-
tend—he feared too little--to other depertenents. nearing
In mind that by tar die largest portion of the available reve-
nue of the country wee expended in the mnintenence of the
military department, that was quite a sufficient reason why
they, the guardians of the public purse, should have under
their own eye what was doing in those departments. Though
it might be true that the blood of Domeier, could protect
itself, bon. members should recollect that they were tere to
protect the taxipayees of the country ; and he was disposed
to do so.
Mr. G. ROBINSON said, the great complaint against the
hon. member for the West Riding bad been that he had
7irlraescieinte. dwhLhee
those
itipsAmineritc.henaMweeirleitecrtortieanunidilsys
running up and down. There never was a term so misapplied
to the British navy, which had never been in so efficient
a state.
Capt. HARRIS thought the hon. member for the West
Riding ought to have apologised to the country for the terms
in which he oof the navy and the Doke of Wel-
lington, which had excited a feeling of indignation through-
out the country.
Mr. W. BROWN said the speech was addressed to an
audience who knew that the hon. member for the West
Riding had not been at Egypt or Malta for the last ten year.
After a few words from Mr. Hens and Capt. HaefUs, in
explanation, the vote was leveed to.
The next vote was 500,0001. towards defraying the expertise
of naval stores and repairs, which, alter an inquiry from
Mr. Hume, was agreed to.
200,0001. for the half-pay of officers of the navy and the
royal marines.
lIUME said it was most important that this item,
which was in all 700,0001. or 800,0001., should be reduced,
The vote was agreed to.
MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
Mr. PARKER then
the
to take some votes on ac-
count of the items in the miscellaneous expenditure, which
were all necessary fur the public service. Tho totals of the
items on which he now proposed to take votes en account,
would not be greater than they had been last year. The
following votes were then proposed, and agreed to without
discussion :
50,0001., for repairs, &c., of public buildings ; for furni-
ture, &c., for various public departments; for certain charges
for lighting and watching, for rates and taxes; also, for the
maintenance and repairs of royal palaces and works in the
royal gardens.
'2.5,0001., for works at the new houses of parliament.
10,0001., fee works required for enlarging and improving
Buckingham Palace.
10,0001., salaries and expenses in the department of her
Majesty's treasury.
8,0001 , salaries and expenses of the office of Secretary of
State for the Home Department.
Iii,1)00/., salaries and expenses in the departmeet of Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, also Queen's tnrssvngerv.
10,0001., salaries and expenses In the department of the
Secretary of State for the Colonies.
10,0001 , salaries and expenses in the department of the
privy council, and the committee of privy council for
trade.
5001. towards the salary of the Lord Privy Seal.
Mr. HUME said he thought it a lit oppovunity to take
art objection to that vote, as the Lord Privy Seal was absent
from the country ; but afterwards said ho would raise the
objection en a future vote.
10,0001., charge in the office of the department o
ff f Compl
-
troll, r-General of the Exchequer, and Paymaster C
Services.
1,0001., portion of the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners for England.
4,0001., salaries and expenses in the departrnent of Comp.
troller-General of the Exchequer, and Paymaster of Civil
Services.
6,0001., salaries and expenses connected with the public
records, also compensations to keepers of records and others
whose offices have been abolished.
20,0001 , expenditure of the several branches of the Mint.
2,0001,, charge of office of Paymaster of Civil Services in

Ireland.
14,0001., ealaries and expenses of the Board of Public
Works in Ireland.
50,0001., expense' of stationery, printing, and binding, for
the several departments of government in England, Scotland,
Inland, and the colonies.
8,0001., charge of her Majesty's foreign and other secret
services.
5,0001., expenses connected with the prosecution of
offenden ligainit the laws relating to the coin.
Mr. RMIE complained of the extravagance of this item
(the total of the estimate being 9,6001) ; and said he should
move for returns to show how it was expended.
10,0001., expenses incurred by the sheriffs ; deficiency in
fees in. the office of Queen's Remembrances ; and certain
expenses of the Queen's Prison.