The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-26 00:00:00

" that this dare stead part of the bill," he was desirous
of having the opportunity of addressing their logishipe uta
the amendment of which he had given "odes in the sl.ase
of • proviso. That amendment was in Itself Nikita, so new
ennable. and it appeared to him thiit the principle on which
it woe founded was of such uuiv geII appllelthosi that hs'
entertained the most sanguine expectation that it swould he
adopted. He felt still more sanguine of such • result if
he could believe that they could come to the cosclusion of
this question setting ate.dis political and pasty cresidere-
tions, and going into it on impartial, if not judicial consider-
ations, because he was satisfied, if they looked at it in •
judicial character, they would find there were principles
about to be infringed by this bill which it was their duty in
their high capacity to protect, and which would
to a certain eaten' be protected by the amend.
ment he proposed. It might be said that the
amendment diu not fully come up to the claims of justice
and equity, but he desired not to meet the bill with any
factious opposition, but so to amend the bill that they
might to some :tent reconcile tho imperative claims of •
judicial principle with those liberal views and oilier' which
I her Majesty's government bad in view, in offering to the
colonial legislature a power larger than that which any co•
losial legislature had ever yet possessed. The effect of
the amendment would be to grant to the Canadian legisla-
tune all that was proposed with regard to the clergy reserves
not hitherto appropriated and allotted under the authority
of grants of the crown, or acts of parliament, for the specific
use of the clergy. Ile proposed to limit the power to be
given to the Canadian legislature, so that it should be
prospective only. A noble earl said, in a former debate,
that the adoption of this amendment would as
effectually destroy the effect of the bill as if they
had rejected the bill on the second reading. Ile entirely
demurred to that statement. If the amendment were agreed
Sy, the Canadian legislature would have the absolute dis-
posal of the unappropriated lands of the clergy, containing
no lees than 1,800.000 acres, valued at 430,0001. He asked
them to take the same course the government had taken in
the measure of 1840, extending that concession, however,
much further and muck more liberally to the colony by
offering absolute control over all future appropriations, but
in regard to the endowments that had been sanctioned by
grants of the crown and by the revisal of the legislature,
by investments in the public funds, and by the
appointment of trustees to provide for their dis-
tribution, be proceeded upon the principle that
even if parliament had the power it had not the right
to alienate them. (Hear, hear.) His argument was that
if parliament alienated from the church these reserves they
would strike at the very root of the whole system oa
which the church was based. (Hear, hear.) If the (tel-
ls.' of the loyal population of Canada were to weigh
with their lordshios, let them not fear that the sense and
discrimination of that population would induce them to my
that parliament bad dealt with them liberally and given
them absolute control over all which it was in their power
to give, but had refused to them from conscientious mo-
tives what they had refused to themselves, for it was not
theirs to give, noises by a violatios of the rights of pro-
perty. (Chien.)
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he was too mindful of
the patience extended to him by the house on Friday night
to treepus at any greater length than was possible upon
their lordships now. He would not follow the *ample of
the noble earl, who had made a speech now which he ought
to have made on Friday, sad which had been reserved for
to-night. The noble earl was • great tactician, but it was
for the house to say bow far tactics were appropriate to •
bill of this kind, and how far it was appropriate to take the
chance of catching • majority in this stage of • bill, on
which there had been no discussion on the second reading,
although they were told that its principle was vicious.
They were told by • right rev. prelate that the bill was
sacrilege, and by a noble and learned lord that it was a
gram infraction of the rights of property, and yet the con-
servative party, as the noble earl Wiwi it, is contradistinc-
tion to that side of the house, were so conservative of
the rights of the church, that for the chance of
a party triumph, they would net divide on the second read.
inc of • bill which they declared to be sacrilege and serous
infraction of the rights of property. The noble earl was
not only a great tactician, but he was air a great artist, for
he had contrived to wrap up and conceal what were the
views and principles contained in his own amendment. The
noble earl bed studiously concealed, if the bill was what he
declared it to be, that his amendment was as vicious in prin-
ciple as the hill itself. (Hear, hear.) What had the
noble earl done ? He—the leader of the great eon-
eervative party—the leader of the landed aristocracy—had
called ea the house to give a stability to realised property
which he claimed to lead ; for he said he was reedy to give
to the legislature of Canada the power of dealing with a
million-end-a-half of sores of land ; he would he ready to
sanction this, r gross an infraction of the rights of
property ; but he would not allow that widish had -
been sold, and the funds derived from it, to be teweltd.
He (the Duke of Newcastle) meintained that it walla lave
been more just, right, and becoming to this age and
to the colony to have rejected the bill on dm Mead me&
jag, than to go on with It with this Ale
Why had the set of 1840 arreersaidbeasso
it was an arrangemeat either unjust or bad In itself, hot
because it was made by the British parliament, and not by
the Canadian legislature, and he would ask, why repeat that
experiment ? Yes woad eel, abseils hail tie property
in question for srishisi ; yea watch wet have gained
pear or conciliated the esisay, which die aside earl said
it was his desire Is male happy and asteated. The sable
seal bed made a farther distinction., eel said that roe had
no right to Wadi the realised fed Nth& lawmpied pro-
perty, and se swains wee het* metal the bill heat haw a
boos to the eeleay, that be wesM welded& what the hag
Itself was. He could understand the saki earl eighty be
would take the land and give you the ear he seM net
cry shall you enure, in their , the invested
funds to the churches in Corr Zit Ile lie t trusties,
but that all the nets wombs ben the iwi sow devised
for tensed years shall be sternly eggespristod. (" No,"
from Lord Leiniardo) He esti& glee no ether wwialag to
It, and two eminent lawyers wham be lad asasalled had
told him that that would be the Alit d the Inelltininst.
The Earl of DERBY said, ahhowsh be tadettook to
cai vare the slam, he did not man; 10 amine for its
but they wars Goyim! relates st 4411/11‘611
Iran act of _

The Dub. of NEWCASTLE kaew that it was dear
that hie interpretation was correct, and that that would be
the easel which he had stated. The obis lard had copied
aeriadhe et klaratio front the act of 1840, end in the 4th
dna al the asseadusat it was said "lands sold or to be
NM." Bat he would tall tie eoble out that no
awe Mb would be odd, sad that mu bed
Meet odd than was allowed sod= the eat But
he wend sot dispute about wards. He would odor
deal with the claw itself, sod be would naiad lite sight
L ei;zia,aa who oa Friday night talked so atedi about
sad the anie sad Issued lord winsome the seas
=l4admen Owe as ammo= abut sights of pro-
' tie be =elision =ass be subleined universal,"
due if Soy ebbed seadalsooy is this quid=
disk nest Me amadmat. (Hear bisrs4
Teas noble kno nesidiered is Os dklera of dare the
874: =I:)" linataVWS
they would at the same thee be sips and et tau
to opus* the bill eflowards a the dird reading.
Mar, burl
The Burl of WICKLOW agreed with the principle of
the WU, bat, dose they were to kayo a reorvatias to that
pellasipls it rested with their lordships to dead. to what
east= the roaryatioa amid go. (Hear. hoar.) He or
ilined‘ O however. that bed bpropsood bat, not bad
Mdse to understand
AMM sow its eet was
simply le provide that the property oft preseet
ineudisale abed mania ualoasbed, he was reedy
to give the wader lb rapport.
Lord WHARIICLIFIM awn mist the SMOSII6IIIII4 sad
" tbe bill in its doge. (Hear, beer.)
WSW of MART would .des oar to protect the
wish
paperls es the numb, sad he nut there-
e _

The-limbs, et ST. DAVID'S said the noble earl who
nerd the arming admitted that it was huts rare sear
penis, and it sour arise hue ezpsdlesey. sable
sad, therefor, esiled rilMst le wigs s oreiSseThe el gds.
elpie, at beet He replied w esseskaliese views of
the if his right rev. brother who irked wen this quo-
ties is a different aspect ; but le thought they lad over-
nest whet they egged the porkies, serelseseee el the
mese" lad altogether hoe slab! el NO des *aft
shish a had es the tiewel of Mrft free Iva
esaseies this °Deasy. (Hear
The Uhler of LONDON rid his right rev. brother and
ethers bed treeted the eet ea if it were only a ratter
of right. It was admitted that the almost immediate Ns-
rimer lithe ps g ef tide hill wadi be the seadarlea-
ties ef shed is Canada. He cratended that by
gieg the • tare this power they were n.
ups them a leered responsibility which now rested
apse themeless. H. said that no such right was taboret
be the dradiaa legislature. It wee said the other night
that them way no church is Canada. He said there was •
thumb, • legal church,
net d •issed thumb, and ea else-
dye church. He was i? for WtZeldiesfe
Mt for the pro le. He Arid re his vote *it
slightest he Aar the mile earl's unsadeassi
TM Hake ef ARGYLL thought sot °sly that the emend-
✓ent was net soled lift ire Mkt it was in Adrift of the
principles of jesien • It wee amorally weiselesi that
they rearmed lie perelpisef a hill by the aawwsd reed.
ins. He edimitted list the sells earl perested against
that for himself sad kis se the leered tit el this
bill, but the house i reesgehed the mien of the
bill, and this ausenessat would destroy t. We
were soot esseediaLote the Curds* the privileges
of freedom; and privileges wen seeoutpared
:I
burdens—Ant them being the necessity
permitting and tiding re4ioas conflict. For
the ieteresta of the melt he had no apprehensions,
U the church were but relieved from the odious
eel invidious position in which she wee sow ;dead. A
*AY *eel had said In the course of the debate that
raker than consent to this measure he would corer to
rupt re of our Usk with the colosy. He (the
Dale yll) are
spier the theory which such
eiromedise implied. Ile ire r such • separate
miles shad& be la direst soenection with this
eenery an importer inliessee might be obtained
them social sad Okra emoNees which were agitated
is Ilse world ; and lie ieelielliss NM laws of England, as
nefreles and repreeseled arra lie pospie of Canady were
burg et Ws .wart a rest nighty Whims, throughout
that-mot assNeeil es the greeter deli the araments of
ear age—ohst seersoset with whisk the agrees of Wilbu-
r rZyree and Miriam were isreelelly esesserd. (Cheer)
ssxl GREY thought that the mile earl opposite (Hail
of WI by) had given up the whole question of " anapest"
sad " equity " admitting that the presort legislature
could not be held to be bound by the arangesents entered
into by the legislature of 1840. (Her, Mar.) He called
their lordships to pass the bill at tAi stets .in the Asps in

. .
width the bad read it h sowed time; or. %bey wade
sigma it, reject it at the stage of tie third -reading, sad
not Dow, by adopting an aistiodment which multi ha''. Ito
odstantage whatever to reememend it. (Cheers.)
Lord Sf. LEOIiAItDS hlMerved that the noble earl who
Iliad. just sat dowel had not- addressed himself to the
amendment, at all ; and the question before their
lordships was not—were religious endowments expedient ?
It was said that there was no difference in principle between
the bill and the amendment, and if you gave up the lead
why not give np the money which had been invested oho?
Their lordships bad to consider, not whether they would
give their sanction to an set of the Canadian leguslatare,
but whether they would repeal the set of 1840 and undo oil
which had been done by that set, and deprive not only the
established churches, bat all other classes, of the provision
which was made for them. . .

,
' The Bishop of OXFORD said that If any argument was
needed to convince their lordships of the inoonvenience and
ineousisteney into which the noble earl had fallen by pro-
posing his amendment, it would be found in the speech of
the noble and learned lord who had just sat down when it
was compared with that which he delivered on Friday last.
(Hear.) Whether he (the Bishop of Oxford) agreed with
the speech of Friday or not, be could not fail to admire the
masculine understanding, the vigour and perspicuity of the
noble and learned lord ; and as far as he (the Bishop of
Oxford) was himself concerned, the graceful courtesy which
the noble and learned lord had exhibited in the address
which he then delivered—granting his principle—be should
as, that the speech of the noble and learned lord was un-
answerable ; but he denied his
_principle, and so he
had failed to emaciate him. (Hear, hear.) But the
house must have seen that the same masculine tin-
dentanding, vigour, and perspiceity were involved
in difficulty by the case the noble and learned lord had to
argue, for he argued at once that what the house was going
to do was sacrilegious, and yet that they were bound to do
it. (Hem, hear.) The noble and learned lord had illus-
trated the principle he advocated by expressing an opinion
that any one could make a compromise with • villain who
seized his purse in order to retain half of its contents, but
the illustration failed, inasmuch as it was proposed to take
the money of • third party, and that is taking only
half of it you were free from blame. (Hear, hear.) He
(the Bishop of Oxford) was anxious to hear the amendment
proposed by the noble earl, which was; at once to serve the
principle he advocated, and yet avoid all the evils
which he showed would follow what he called an
act of confiscation. But, like other half measures,
it served neither the principle of the noble earl
nor of those on the ministerial side of the home. It
sacrificed both, and was altogether inadmissible. The
sentiment of the noble earl on Friday went to show that
this question was settled, and guaranteed by the legisla-
ture in 1791 and in 1840 ; but did not the amendment of
the noble earl overthrow that settlement, and, as it ap-
peared to him (the Bishop of Oxford), in a more dangerous
manner than if power was given to the Canadian legislature.
The noble earl said this property stood on precisely the
same footing as the property of the chunk of England or
the church of Scotland, and that this bill was setting an
example of eonfiscatioa. He thought the noble earl was
led away by the words appropriation and allotment. In the
case of the church of England the lands were left /1011111tialle
by individuals to particular parishes, and for penlight ge.
ligious purposes ; but the lands in Canada were pasta by
the crown for the maintenance of the protestant clergy ; est
for particular parishes or particular purposes. The olden
of the bill was much mistaken. He had bell
told that evening that the bill gave pow to
strip the rectories in Canada of this gable-
meats. It did no such th=at, of thine
ries recto were similar to those in a lei the bit
dealt only with a common fund w was telleelgaine•
tared by the colonial legislature. There WY Iles=
between the two cases. The amendhest of the and
went in the pernicious direction whin' the bill avoided, he
' the noble earl said to the Canadian legislates% by hie
' amendment, we will secure a part of he Imlid._ but
easfiscate the other part, and it wipe= In
1 lordships' bolt •do that whin it ins nil iambi be sae&
lege if they did it, bat whi' asp egthertiege when it wee
left to be dam by the Cassiine leglieste. As the mu*
meat failed it carrying out the parpensf the noble earl, 11
also failed to starry out the purposes althea who supported
1 the original measure. The bill did sat sealiseat• a single
acre of land, but only allowed the colonel legislature to dal
I with it. The noble and learned lord (St. Latiaardo) did him '
(the Bishop of Oxford) the honour to say that be had laidfiewe
that doctrine is a speech he had made on another oninke,
and that he had failed to establish it—and that as, if any
man could have established it he could, he having failed,
the argument failed altogether. He was much obliged to
the noble and learned lord for his courtesy, but In would
still say that the argument could be established. He did
not say that there was any legal right in the Comedian l►
ginner, to deal with this question, for if tie wes, whet
is the world were they discussing the make hr now ?
(Hear, boar.) If the noble and laarned bni mart that
—wooed, it at once. But • Side 1111 MI stand
as • legal right, but yet stand es thete* a nen
loin
and equitabh right, which amp wilts Ire hear
body, and by such a right the Ommlleis Wee
empowered to deal with this qualm It been ae.
knowledged to the Canadian ig=that haperial use-
does ought to be reserved fur de.
mastic questions confined to he mil milli ;
and they had gene • mop fartimeend glen to se-
spoilable government, and sea a government was a
modm ,p, if, when they were Ogg to use it for • purpose
which the British parliament said was injurious, they inter-
fered to prevent it. The right rev. prelate thin referred le
• part of the speech of the Bishop of Exeter on Friday, In
whisk he that the Bishop of Oxford had diffe, ed
from the principle laid down by his father (Mr. Wilber-
form), and in very glowing and eloquent terms
the disinterested public eaters of that gentleman, mgr
=I his strong vessesties foe him and his pride is
I his mule, sad to say thee in the nurse le
was now taking he boa Ws father's rains,
and denied that thew et=ithe manse gutted was
expressed was parallel to the peasant. net (the almilliaa
of slavery) was • great imperial nudism whit' bed ban
made a great feature by dm ample% and when he sentry
came to • saw of the well and rehmsed the imjuslise, when
the star of liberty rem on bar esissial guldens, is
busier *sleety of this (1•110111. peepers the 1M _for es*
a new state el things. He (*a lb I lop of Oxford) then
proceeded le his indigestion time he Onsedisa per-
lienemt, tbe of a grewies nation, should be um-
pared with the *Matures of sub &mph colonies as the
West ladle Ise min He feared hie light rev. friend want
eke length of Dr. Johnson, whs, is sipsaldng of lb. AMIN&
see Nimble. said that " they were but a nodes of
and it they were allowed to emus hanging' It ;are
esemeake ham." It mast balm boon withCoreetbine;
that that his right rev. ketbor bed been indeed to
Wm, Indian lefildnem with the Claimilles
pea°° let Thee who sappers.* the bill mete aimed OM
' emus was hum now why_ there*soli be ea shield's of
the settlement of IMO. It was clew that when
a large share of the ohm rearm was given
to the harsh el Scotland, it was before the the-
napies la thee &arch, and harden those who were in-
tended to pleb by the did net do so because
he peeler amber of thee body mew belonged to the free
shush The Wadi= pediment seeinted that they were
the peeper poseur to alter that sattiommal. and they could
' met be ; bat the amendment of Ile melds end did
mot tbetitcad did not save the beam et tIM Whisk
*he rev. prelate the. peeseind le refer
to a csesides ham Burke mode Vhe BiaLgio elision
. on Friday night. whisk hid ligel cnnowe,. of
I imperial pa4ammuk med mineern B
right lbel if he right rev. prdoe-
late had read a little hither, be meal have hued that
Burks also laid down la the steemesetlmmthe diebt leas pism liberty of the Amadeu mina% owl the Om. duke
eseerlaisad by them for its wejegnents met WWI that if
the whit et Burke could be same Owe them k would be
the attempt made le fellenare with the liberties
of tie at
hlellfeeil seisnide, sad the halal te hem of the
pewee te deal with the andenshale of their own dewy. lie
this meat on to urge, Oil if his ball were posed, the
geodes *bald remain lemelled, that it wevid raise
strew aid warmer Min is Commis en the
ingot. sod that lei sohisament add met Inieg be volumed.
Ur/ maul sot gals • dish yew by dwering ON Oh
hill new, but having thrown It out they wadi lies hat
dilseemeald have alismaled ail the gene._Ai of Canada hem Oh semery. (teen=
WA oinosof f sly ouggoomdl AM be wee ihe obandming
dims sumo abege. bat. shim& AU woe •
be add say, inastessial and simusely, that nth=
sae dr church of at hone INSlltaised la its peer
east position by the of a foreign power he would mash
sooner that it liege* from door to het Ifer the ef
its ululate's. (Ulises) Now, the mania be presbdy the
feeling that would enimete the pm* et Claude If sheer
lordship Moped the amendment, bemuse It would be
tantamount to saying , "We dislnest_ yen; you shall nee
legislate in this matter, but we will iseta he you," and I
therefor, he besought their legible% be the sake of se
airing the spiritual welfare of this peel missy, mu is be
led away by the amesideseat hem the simple question of
whether Canada, with a rupendble pewee and a
local legislature, was set MAW able and betterentitled to
'deal with thee; menu than she Drilide puliement.
(Cheers.)
The Bishop of EXETER repeated the arguments which
he had mad on • former occasion against the blii, and mu-
tended that it was the duty of the iambi Isgisintnre to
watch over and control the preesedisp ef esienid emus-
blies in spiritual as well se impend Aim
The Earl of DERBY replied ; but after the lengthened
debate their lordships had beard, and et that late
hour, it would not be neesseary he him to
detain the house for more than • few minutes.
It was imposaible for him, or his noble and
learned friend who sat near him (Lord St. Leonard')
to accept the definition in the lassim which
the right reverend prelate (the Bishop of 0 had ap-
plied to the aineschment. (Hear, hear.) H• net ad-
mit that in proposing this amendment himself, asd those
who followed hut were either seeking to wrest from Canada
hat rights and privileges, or to shuns them away by chit*-
:g . (Hear, hear,) Upon redaction, be was sure the
t reverend prelate would regret that he had used such
besguage, and feel that some apology was
hedue to those to whomhad • it. For
his own part be disclaimed the 0 waive imputa-
tion the right rev. prelate had nude and however the right
rev. prelate might hays been lead away by the heat of
thought, or the desire to stake a point ia hb speech, he was
comOdest that upon reflection the right rev. prelate would
admit that such expressions were quite uncalled for.
(Hoar, hear.)
The Bishop of OXFORD declared that be had not the
remotest intention of using the terms referred to offensively,
and he was heartily sorry that they had bees taken in so
serious a mese. (Hear, hear.) Their lordships would
remember that he smiled when he used the expressions,
end he scald assure their lordships that nothing wee further