The Express.
London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

GOVERNMENT SCHEME OF EDUCATION.

On the report on the grant of 100,0001. for the purposes of
education being brought up,
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to explain a personal matter,
with reference to which a statement had been made by an
hoe. friend of his on a former night. The bon member for
Carlisle had stated that, on the 14th or 15th of this month,
application had been made to him (Lord J. Russell) on the
part of the catholic bishops, that they were anxious to see
him before the 19th inst., but that he had declined to grant
them an interview. He should be sorry to be *apposed to
have been guilty of any went of courtesy towards the Roman
catholic bishops; and he would, therefore, state what really
had °marred. On the 17th inst., after a meeting of the
cabinet council, and when he was about leaving town to peas
the Sunday a few miles in the country, carrying with him a
large bundle—(a laugh)—of pamphlets on the subject of
education--(hear, and laughter) —he received a letter from
Bishop Grifilths, in which he requested the honour of an
interview on the subject of the education of the children of
poor catholic", before the introduction of any measure on
the subject; the note was dated, Bloomsbury-square, 17th
April. He (Lord J. Russell) understood that the applica-
tion had reference to the education of the children of poor
catholics; and having, on the following Monday morning, to
meet his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
on some matters of finance, and to state the measure which
intended to propose on the subject of education in the
afternoon, he did not think it absolutely necessary that he
should see the Roman Catholic bishops either on Sunday or
Monday morning (hear, hear) ; and if he had done so, he
could not have 'Bumbled the members of the Privy Council
and made any alteration in the minutes. He, consequently,
in reply, rested that he would receive the Roman catholic
bishops before he introduced say measure with reference to
the education of poor catholic,. He would only add that he
did not intend to be at all uncourtectus to Bishop Griffiths,
for whom he had great respect, or any other of the Roman
catholic bishops. In moving the order of the day, he begged

leave to state that nothing was farther from the intention of
the government than the exclusion of Roman catholic@ from
the benefit of grants for the purposes of education; but
they thought it necessary to have fresh minutes on the
subject, and consider it very carefully. (Hear, bear.) They
had declared that they did not think it right that any cler-
gyman of the Church of England should receive any part of
the grant which had been proposed as it would appear like
an endowment of the established church under another
name—(hear, hear); and similar provision must be made
with respect to Roman catholic,, but he understood there
were orders of Roman catholic—of whom the christian
brethren was an example—who were not in holy orders, and
who undertook the business of education. It was a matter
which would require a great deal of consideration, and any
minutes on the subject must be framed with great care.
The government would shortly pay attention to the subject,
but whether they would be able in a short time to frame
minutes, or whether it would not be necessary to have some
inspection and report, he was not then prepared to state.
He could only say that they had no intention of excluding
the Roman catholic', and he hoped the measure would be
made as generally beneficial to all closets as possible. (Hear.)
Bir Cf. CLERK begged to ask the noble load whether the
parochial schools in Scotland would derive any benefit from
the measure ? '

Lord J. RUSSELL said that point had net been sub-
mitted to the privy council. The intention of the grant was
that aid should be given to support voluntary societies and
increase voluntary contributions ; and he should therefore
think that the schoolmaster who had a stipend by law would
not be entitled to receive any part of that grant. It might,
however, be a subject for conaideration whether the stipends
of parochial schoolmasters in Scotland might not be increased,
and whether they might not be allowed some retiring pen-
sion.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH, in moving the amendment of
which he had given notice, said the noble lord had not read
the last passage in his note to Bishop Griffiths, which was
that the government had no immediate intention of promul-
gating minutes on the subject of education with reference to
Roman Catholics. He was not actuated by any feeling
of dislike to the government measure; on the con •
teary, he advocated the interference of the state
in the education of the people, and thought the
government plan was a step in the right direction.
The simple object of his resolution was to enable the Roman
catholics to participate in the grant for education—a proposi-
tion so exceedingly fair that be could not conceive what ob-
jection there could be to it. It might be said that the
Roman catholic did not want asaisiance. On the contrary,
he believed that the Roman catholic population of the coun-
try stood more in need of assistance than any others. (Hear,
hear.) He was informed th It 10,000 Roman catholic chil-
dren were unprovided with daily instruction in Manche
mer
alone. In Liverporl, at least 6,000 were in want of iruitrue-
lion, and the same want existed in other parts of England.
In London there were from 150,000 to 200,000 catholics, of
whom 120,000 at least, or four out of every five, formed the
most wretched portion of the community. It was evident ,1
that the cathoLcs stood in great nerd of education. But it
was said that there was uo application for assistance made on
behalf of the Roman catholic!. Now, on the contrary, the Ro-
man esthetics did apply for assistance,through Mr. Langdale,
who acted under the authority of the vicars apostolic in the first
instance to the right hon. baronet in June last, and after-
wards to the noble lord on his succeeding to office. The
whole tenor of the correspondence which passed between
Mr. Langdele and Mr. Shuttleworthahowed that the Roman
catholic were not only willing to receive assistance, but
were under the belief that they would receive it and it was
only on the 16th inst. that Mr. Shuttleworth brought
the negotiation to a close by referring to the minute of the
3rd of December, 1839, which required " that a portion of
the scriptures should be daily read." And this, oncoming to
Mr. Shuttleworth'e interpretation, meant " the entire bible,
in the authorised version." This, of course, excluded the
Roman catholic' from any portion of the grant. He could
understand the feelings of the slaveholder in refusing educa-
tion to his slave ; he could understand the feelings of the
bigot, who would make all believe like himself . he could
enter into the feelings of their forefathers, in their contests
for civil and religious liberty: he could understand a great
and wise statesman like Cromwell forming the project of
destroying the Roman catholic' of Ireland : but he could
not understand the feelings of those who, in the present day,
would exclude Roman catholic, from the minor rights, after
having been admitted to the highest rights and privileges of
citizenship. The right hon. gentleman the member for
Edinburgh had called this a measure of perfect impartiality.
He hoped the right honourable gentleman would
vote for admitting 800,000 of his fellow subjects into this
most important system. He agreed with the right hon.
baronet (Sir R. Peel) that the present grant made the
greatest difference with respect to the Roman catholic, and
that if they alone, of all christian sects, were excluded,
they would have just ground of complaint. The noble lord
the member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, and the
right lion. gentleman the Secretary of Stare for the Home
Department, admitted in their speeches the justice of the
claims of the Roman catholic' ; and if the noble lord the
member for London distinctly declared that he would take
their claims into his consideration this session, he would
withdraw his motion. He thought with the right hon.
baronet (Sir R. Peel) that this ought to be done before the
general election. (Hear, hear.) Let them not go before
the people OA craven cowards shrinking from a great question
—let them tell the people their honest convictions--let them
show by their votes that they were in earnest—boldly meet
them on the hustings—call upon them to ratify their conduct,
and (said the hon. member) " by heaven they will do so in
the teeth of their own prejudices." (Hear, hear.) The hon.
gentleman concluded by moving, " That any minutes of the
committee of the Privy Council en education, or other regu-
lation', which exclude Roman catholic, from participating
in env grant of public money for purposes of education by
requiring in all schools which received such grants of public
money the use of the authorised version of the Scriptures,
are inexpedient, and ought to be rescinded."
Sir G. GREY said he had hoped, alter the declaration of
the government and of his noble friend that night, that the
hon. gentleman would have been content to leave this
matter in the hands of the government. (Hear, hear.) His
noble friend stated, sod he again pledged himself, to take
the subject into his early consideration, with a view to carry
out the declared intentions of the government, and also what
be believed to be the good will of the house. (Hear, hear.)
He did not think, however, that the hon. gentleman adopted
the mode which was most likely to lead to a satisfactory
settlement (Hear, hear.) The only matter to be
considered was not the minute of 1839, an the hon. gentle-
man seemed to think. Whether the interpretation of that
minute was correct or not, whether the " whole Scriptures"
would include the Douay version or not, the government would
have to consider many other matters in framing a minute for
the purpose of admitting the Roman catholic' to the benefice
of en educational grant. When that minute was underoonsi-
deration, it would then be time to express an opinion upon
it. With respect to bringing Leeward such • minute this
sesaiou, he could give no definite or distinct pledge. He
could assure thc hon. gentleman that the government did
sot do so in order to get some advantage at the coming
election. On the contrary, if they looked to their own in-
terest'', it would be better if they could state at once the
specific and precise terms on which the grant to the Roman
esthetics would be proposed, than that they should go to
the hustings with a vague apprehension that they were going
to do something which they had not the courage to avow.
(Hear, hear.) He could only say that they pledged them-
selves to an early consideration of the question, and that no
delay would take place in laying the minute, when it was
prepared, on the table of the house. (Hear, hear.)
Lord H. VANE said it was impossible not to conclude
alike from the speech of the noble lord at the head
of the government, en well as from the whole tone and temper
of that of his right hon. friend (Sir G. Orey), that tier
Majesty's government would allow but very little time to
elapse before they introduced a minute for the purpose of
effecting the object contemplated by the hon. baronet.
Sir It. INGLIS said that whether introduced by the hon.
baronet who had just called their attention to it, or by the
noble lord, the present, or by the right hon. baronet, the
late, l'rime Minister—introduced, in short, under any cir-
cumstances, at any time, and by any man, the motion would
have his determined opposition. The hon. member had claimed
support in no measured terms from his right hon. friend the
late Prime Minister of England, who, as he (Sir It. Inglis)
grieved to think, had in the present instance bid mere highly
for popular applause (hear, hear) and for the support of
the Roman catholic bodp, and perhaps of the extreme liberals
of every sect or persuasion, than his noble friend at
the head of the government, as he ventured to hope, would
ever permit himself to do. (Hear, hear.) Seeing that the
two great leaders in that house were united in this cause, he
was sure it well became the people of this country, and it
became the house as representing the people, to bear fully
in mind what was the intention, the deliberate and expressed
intention, of those to whom the confidence of the country
had been so largely conceded. (Hear, hear.) First of all,
the education of the people was, by the constitution of the
country, confided to the church ; next, it was confided to
those who used the authorised version of the scriptures;
now, it was proposed to extend it to all christians. (Hear,
hear.) There, at any rate, his right hon. friend the late
prime minister stopped. In reference to Roman catho-
' lie christians, the right hon. baronet said, in substance, that
he world not be a party to any compulsion which might
place the noble lord, his successor in office, in any difficulty
on that occasion. He hoped he might tell his right hon.
friend that, so far from that being • legitimate apprehen-
sion, he indulr,ed the hope that not even all hie (Sir It.
Peel's) participation and support would enable the noble lord
Murry into operation a system so repugunt to the original
genius of the constitution of England, and to the feeling pre-
vailing amongst the great mass of the people, if tested at that
moment. Ho could not but feel, after hearing the
statement made by the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, by the First Lord of the Trea-
sury for the present administration, and by the
Secretary of State for the Rome Department of the
last, that so far as the combined forces of those mem-
bers could secure such an obiect, the measure
of which he bad spoken would be carried; but be believed
that the feelings and principles of the people of England
would be found absolutely and most strongly opposed to any
measure for endowing or supporting education in the ROOMS
catholic religion at the expense of the state, whence it must
follow that they should educate and support priests of the
Roman catholic religion. He could conceive no claim in
favour of the one which would not equally apply in favour
of the other. (Rear, hear.)
Sir It. PEEL said—Sir, when my hon. friend exorcise,
any opinion in this hose's, however emphatic may
be the declaration of that opinion, I have such respect
for his integrity and character, that I always believe he is
expressing the opinion which he sincerely and minden-
thusly entertains—(hear, hear)—and I cannot but think
that my bon. friend would show more of true toleration if
he would en tend to others that principle which others are
willing to apply to himself, sad to gave them wait for
haying no other object in view, la espreseies epees= which
may differ from his own, than to premed tee amble interest
land do justice between differed dress of her Majesty's

subjects. (Cheers.) My hen. friend imputes to me that
my object, in delivering my opinions on Friday night, was
to outbid the noble lord, and to attempt to conciliate
Roman catholic and liberal support. (Hear, hear.)
of a personal nature in view, /
Sir, I assure my hon. friend that he does me great Mita-
tioe ; for I have no object whatever of a political kind, late
that of outbidding the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) And if I
up°ountintit objectcarewlyhinethngeraintdbereenpnrundnennitin(asg we
sys tennindo,frstood),
greatly kwaln oyyod
education, to express the opinion. which I took with rimed
to the justice of not excluding the Roman catholic sub sets
from a participation in its benefits. Sir, I think my 'ion.
friend might have remembered the course which I took with
regard to Maynooth, the opinions which I then expressed at
considerable risk, and the great danger which we had to
apprehend of the loss of popular favour or of office; and I
think he might have remembered that between him and me
there must be a total difference of opinion as to the prin-
ciples involved in giving aid to the Roman ratholies for the
purpose of inatruction. (Hear.) I do no: believe that we
are compromising our own faith by geeing that aid.
(Cheers.) If I wanted a proof that my hon. friend ought
to have done me that justice which I am willing to
render him, I find it in my hon. friend's own speech; for,
after hunting out the statistical returns of the region,.
general, my hon. friend find. that we have grossly overrated
the Roman catholic population of this country, and that, in-
fining the total population from the number of marriages,
the whole number of Roman catholic' in England ought
not to exceed 300,000. Well, be it so; my honourable
friend shall be correct there are not more than
300,000 Roman catholic.. Why, what political object,
then, can I have in view in recommending that
justice should be done to the 1213th part of the population ?
(Hear, hear.) Why, I do not find that—l will not use the
worl concession—l do not find that any measures intended
to improve the Roman Catholic population, are exceedingly
popular, even in this house. (Hear, hear.) I recollect that
almost within a week, a measure, which had before been
sanctioned by a majority of only three, was exposed to a
severer ordeal, and was lost, after discussion, by a
majority of thirty-nine. So far, therefore, as the
opinion of the house is en indication or the opinion
of the country, I do not think my hon. friend can justly
charge me with having attempted to promote any political
object in the course I have taken with regard to the Roman
catholic". (Hear, hear.) As to raining the support of the
liberal body, so far as the dissenting interest is connected
with that body, I greatly doubt whether expreesions in
favour of the Roman catholic& are very likely to corciliate.
(Hear, hear) But, in truth, I had no political object. I
believe it to be just and politic to take the course which
I recommended. Well, now, what are the imputations to
which taking that course subjects me? Br the hon. member
for limit there has been a charge made, riot of raslineis, not
of impolicy, but of absolute infidelity. (Hear, hear.) This
is not the place to speak on such subjects, and nothing which
has fallen from that hon, gentleman shall induce me to say
one word which would be disrespectful to him; but as foe
infidelity, I cannot believe that that great God—l Pay it
with all reverence—l cannot believe that that God, who is
the " Author of peace, and lover of concord," who gave us
this commandment, that we should " believe in the same of
Jesus Christ," and "lore one another "—I cannot
believe that that Almighty Being will think that
we are fulfilling that commandment when we hate
one another (hear, beer) and when we allow
thousands and tens of thousands of children who
ought, whatever be their sect, to be taught to believe in
the name of Jesus Christ, to pass through life and to be
ushered into eternity without having ever heard the
name of Jesus Christ. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
present position of education in some parts of this country, it
would be much better for us to make allowance for the ins-
perfections of each other, and to proceed on the assumption
at least, that we are actuated by honest moti.m, although
we may differ, not as to religion itself, hut as to the mea-
sures connected with religion which it may be desirable
to adopt. (Cheers.) I doubt the justice, the policy, or the
true charity of meeting measures of this nature with such
charges as that of infidelity. (Cheers.) Now, sir, it has
been my wish to avoid embarrassing the noble lord by taking
any course which would diminish the chances of ultimate
swans for this measure. I estimate fully all the difficulties
with which he ie surrounded even in bringing forward a
measure of such limited extent. My experience of office is
too recent for me not to be hilly aware that the
position of a minister or a government is different
from that of private individuals. We can state what mea-
sures we think ought to be proposed, and on what principles
they should be founded • but a minister who is anxious for
the success of a particular measure, is compelled to consider
the obstructions which it may meet with, and he must
content himself with something short of that absolute good
which he would aim at were he placed is a different mention.
(Hear.) I am surprised that the hon. baronet thould have
claimed my support on this occasion. On a former
occasion I stated distinctly my sentiments on the general
question, but, at the same time, I stated that I should not
concur in any motiom which would at all embarrass the
further progress of this measure ; that I would not be a
party to any compulsion being brought to hear on the
government if the government showed an unwillingness to
adopt that which I was disposed to support. (Hear, hear.)
Now, I must say that I hope the hon. laronet will sot
press his motion. (Cheers.) I do not my that for the par.
pass of relieving myself from any difficulty, for I feel
none whatever ; but after the avowal which was made by
the right hon. gentleman the Seereeary of State for the
Home Department, not on the compulsion of this motion,
but voluntarily, two or three nights ago, and after the state-
ment made to-night by the noble lord, that the government
concede the principle that Roman catholic, ere not to be
excluded, but that they pledge themselves to bring forward a
minute, when the matter luta been maturely considi red, for
the purpose of including them, I must lay that I think
the government have done nothing to them:aide them to eon-
fidenc*. PO that an opportunity should not be given them of
proceeding with this measure without the obstruction of a
hostile resolution. Sir, the right hon. gentleman sap, I think
very properly, " I cannot pledge myself to the introduction of a
measure at any particular time, but I give you a full &Nur-
ant* with respect to the principle." I can easily conceive
that many communications will be necessary for the purpose
of making the measure complete, end that it is much
more likely to be satisfactory to that body for whose good it
is intended, if opportunity for that purpose be given, than if
the government is at once compelled by a vote of the House
of Commons to introduce • minute. (Hear, hear.) I have
little confidence in impromptu measures on such a subject as
this. I do believe that it is the intention of the govern-
ment to do what is just; and haring that confidence, I
cannot concur in a vote which would imply mistrust, and
prevent them from having an opportunity of giving to the
matter the consideration which it deserves. I do hope that
I have now convinced my hon. friend that I have no such
object as that of outbidding the noble lord. I disclaim any
such intention; and so far from wishing to embarrass the
noble lord with respect to the question of education. I have
seen enough of the difficulties with which he bee had to
contend not to feel desirous of ensuring for this measure
ultimate success lather than making this subject the arena
of any party or political contest. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH expressed his regret that the measure
had not originally included grants to Roman catholtee heals.
Ntr. M. J. O'CONNELL, as a Roman catholic, tend. red.
his thank. to the hon, baronet for bringing forward &quie-
ten, the discussion on which could not fail to be of great
service. He regarded the assurance of the home-secretary
very valuable, but at the same time he must express his
great regret that the government had at all made the catho-
lic* exceptions to their general rule. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. E. LAW said that in his opinion this amendment
negatived the terms on which the measure had receivid the
acquiescence of the house and the country. He thanked
the government for what they had already done, but
he could pledge himself to go no further, and he should cer-
tainly oppose the present amendment.
Mr. LIDDELL said that in justice it was impossible, if
the state undertook to educate the people, that they should
refuse to educate those of the subjects of the state who were
of the Roman catholic persuasion. But be was sufficiently
satisfied with the declaration of the:members of the cabinet,
to feel it unnecessary to vote for the amendment.
Mr. M. °TERRA LL took leave to observe, that no body
of men were more interested in education than the Roman
catholic., who had suffered more than any class from the
want of it. But the question was, was he satisfied with the
declaration of the government or not ? He replied to that
question M the affirmative, and he thought were he to vote
in favour;of this motion, he should very little benefit his own
persuasion, whilst he should undoubtedly do great injury to
a cause which he was desirous of promoting. He should,
therefore, certainlz give his voice against the amendment.
Mr. M. MILNEB thought that when the hon. members
for the universities considered that in India the British
government gave money for the education of Mahometans,
:bey ought not to blame him for voting in favour of the edu-
cation of Roman catholic",
Mr. FORBES said, that, in giving his support to the
government scheme, he was influenced by the consideration
that it professed to instruct children in the holy scriptures.
Mr. AGLIONBY advised the hon. member for South-
wark to withdraw his amendment. There was every reason
to believe that ere long the interests of the Roman catholic*,
in reference to education, would be properly cared fur by
government.
Mr. NEWDEGATE repelled the imputation, thst
those who opposed this giving of education were inflamed
by bigoted intolerance as to the Roman catholic*.
Mr. BELLEW was indebted to the hon. mover of the
amendment before the house, for bringing the *Onset more
thoroughly under the observation of the house ; but he was
so satisfied that the government would itself lose no time in
providing education for the Roman catholic of this °punter,
that he should vote with the government, if the bon. baronet
proceeded to a division.
Sir W. JAMES regretted that the noble lord had not
brought forward a bolder and more comprehensive scheme.
Mr. S. HERBERT thought it would have been well, ua-
doubtedly on principle, to have included the Roman
cathnlics in this "theme; but this would have so
greatly increased the difficulties of the measure as to
have occasioned most unadvisable delay. (Hear, hear.)
There was a difference between the state of this country and
Ireland, as far as religion was concerned. There was one
peculiarity in the case of Iceland, namely, that the peep)*
were not subdivided into a variety of religious denomina-
tions. Speaking of Ireland numerically, it was a Roman
catholic country, and it was therefore necessary they shoald
occupy the largest share of the attention of any statesman
who attempted to educate that nation. There existed is
Ireland the Roman catholic, the preebyterian, and the esta-
blished churches, all them of whom were in some way recog-
nised by the state. But there was such a diversity of opinion
he England, that by adopting the elan which was introduced
in Ireland, they would make the school-room the seine
in which every political topic would be discussed.
It would be unreasonable then to expect the noble
lord to bring forward a measure which would not be
wasaccap atanbinele
stotep thine
inpeo.
pprolepeoff
direnithis suite:

otnd• a Rutin thanks to the noble lord for the
..Meld she was placed by the measure which he pro-
ilwetrusted that there was in this country a growing
that, without tasking say distinction with respect to
tut hey o t
atught to extend to all those wets
wh differed s
from these h education and light which they
That was the very best mode of ppa-
eeeit"rbegli;ltruth, and ridding all other leaf rofrom their
;thei'sod darkness.
.
ROEBUCK was anxious to learn from the noble lord
libigeer the ieterpretation put on his views by the right hon.
who had just set down was the correct one.
rtsrere so, it would remove all the difficulties
„bolt be and other honourable members labnured under.
ne
Noble lord begin his expla
thro, nations but did not finish
u derstuod that alter the 100,0001. had been
sued they would have en opportunity of considering
witeththr toy portion of it should be given to the education
d Emma catholic', or whether, that not being sufficient for
tee issue purpon, a new and separate grant should be pro-
e.r them. If that wen the noble lord's intention, all
a▪ :Acuities would be removed,—they would not have another
wool te sac If otherwise, the whole difficulty remained.
ourewere two Roman catholic gentlemen (alluding to Mr.
glee' end Mr. M. O'Fereall) connected with the government
who, though generally deeply interested in Roman catholic
adees, ware silent on this onariou ; therefore the fight
Kul been left to them. Ile could not suppose
that the petty business of office or the small proceed. of pee-
wee' consideration on this occasion could have tied the
yyatat Lon Rue ; but he must suppose that there was some
that bowed down the giant, and made him as
re""rtawna I babe, -1 ftthis '
anweent and an use cat as • and e great question
these whom the right hon. gentleman who had just sat
down would cell the enemies of his faith. He was not the
way of his faith—he was not the enemy of any man's
hik but he declared that, if it were his faith, he would
ant he a silent spectator while contumely was heaped upon
it The noble lord at the head of the government would
toe praise that he would bring forward a vote for the
education of the Roman catholic' this s ear, but he had
Mated that he hoped tl.at the hon. baronet the member for
Winn would withdraw his motion, and leave to the
prernmeat what ought to be done on this occasion. What
led ben already done towards education in this country
owed a great deal of jealousy. They had been sectarian
oween hitherto. It was bound that, for one national
school, there were twenty British and Foreign schools. Now
they were
it ogre, forgoing to pocket the public money, as
the education of the people, and to
withhold it from the diseenters. He would oppose
any such athp, an I he believed firmly that that was the na-
ture of thii proration which was on the table of the house.
He now wished to ask the noble lord whether be intended to
.mpete .srtking for the Roman catholic* during the preen
;ink& the hon. baronet the member for Southwark was
asked to withdrew his motion • but on what promise, or
ohm condition was he to withdraw it? It seemed that
everybody got up and held out some kind of a promise but
the coble lord, who carefully avoided doing so. The object
el the government was that this grant should pass the
Home of Common., and go to the House of Lords, and that
the Roan catholic, should be heard of no more, and if the
sat parliament be • 4FI one, they should have a chance
of having their c considered. He would ask
the government, the , what was their position as
regarded Ireland ? They came down at the early
part of the session with • grant of 8,000,0001. for the
relied the people of Ireland. They did that with a hope
amonlisting a large portion of the people of that country.
That was their mcde of dealing with them in the first part
of the session, but when they were called upon to look to
their personal and temporal interests, and to give duct-
Ms which was deemed essential to the happiness of the
ople, they made the paltry sum of 100.0001. the battle
deld of preiudiee, ignorance, and bigotry, and an insult to
the whole Irish people, because they refused to let the Ro-
ane catholic' participate in the advantage of that which they
acknowledged to be the undoubted right of every human
being in this country who was the subject of the crown, no
matter what may be his creed. It did so happen that
the people who, most of all others, were in want of
education, were the Roman catholic' who inhabited the
manufacturing and commercial towns of England. What,
in God's name, were they giving this grant of money fur ?
Was it not for the purpose of relieving the people from
that ignornice and darkness which had hitherto unfortio
aately prevailed in this country ? and who were they who
were mint in want of the fostering hand of education?
They were the unfortunate Irishmen belonging to the ins-
subeturing towns in this country. He objected to the
whole principle of this educational scheme. The noble lord
mid to the country, " I will give you money if you give me
money." The parte of the country which were most igno-
rant, and in want of the government money for the purposes
of education, were the meet poor and the least able to meet
the demands of the government for co-operation. (Cheers.)
What good were those cheers ? Why not vote against the
noble lord? There the noble lord sat smiling trium-
phantly, because he felt sure of a majority, and he
did not care how conclusive • man's statements may be, so
long as he had that. The feeling, however, may change.
This cry of " no popery " may yet be converted into another
description of imputation it may be said that there was in
office a body of men placed there by extraordinary circum-
stances, from no peculiar virtues or powers or considerations
of their own, hut placed by the mere fantastic turning of
"Moat eccentric fortune on the treasury bench, without any-
thing to rest upon but the extravagant dissensions of their
most unwise opponents, who thought that all their ingenuity
and intellectual power should be directed to the fashioning
of certain measures which would keep them in office without
any care for the public weal. The hon. member for Tam-
worth said that the principles laid down by the hon.
baronet, the member for Southwark, meigwith his cordial
co-operation, but that he bad such faith us the noble lord,
that he hoped he would not press the house to a divi-ion.
All he wanted from the noble lord was a promise that he
would do something for the Roman esthetics—nothing else
would satisfy
.him. The noble lord was now kindling the
firs of fanaticism, and stirring up the coals of dissension, in-
stead of bringing forward a liberal proposition. It was im-
ponible to maintain that narrow bigotry which we...compre-
hended in this scheme of education, and which lad been de-
stroyed by the debates which took place in the house
within the last few nights. The government, by bringing
forward a more liberal proposition, would not have lost a
angle supporter. He had no fear, by the free declaration
which he had made, of losing the good opinion of one honest
individual in this country. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the hon. and learned gen-
tleman who had just sat down, stated that he began his ex
planation' to the house, but he had not closed them. In the
lag respect the hon. and learned gentleman would not prove
a tree prophet. The hon. baronet the member for South-
wark E:oueht forward, in a very fair and temperate speech,
the motion of which he gave notice, and adduced the
reasons which appeared to him to support it. The right
ben baronet the Secretary for the Home Department, stated
over again what had been stated to the house on a previous
occasios, and stated his grounds for not agreeing to the
motion of the boo. baronet. That explanation was satisfac-
tory to many members of the house ; it induced
many members of the house to say that they
were willing to leave this matter in the hands of
the government; though agreeing with the hon. baronet
in the general opinion, which be expressed, giving him every
credit for the motives which induced him to bring the mo-
tion forward,
.they were yet satisfied with the explanation
given by the right Eon. baronet, and believed that the pro-
misee of the government would be fulfilled, the declaration
"(the government would be made good, and that if the go-
vernment put this question to a division, however agreeing
with him in his general opinions, they must vote against
him. Such was the opinion of the right hon. baronet the
member for Tainworth, the right hon. gentleman the member
br Wiltshire, and the hon. gentlemen the members for
Bilden and Louth. Other gentlemen expensed the WOO
cenldence, and came to the same result. He was
satisfied with the confidence expressed by these gentlemen
le was satisfied with the distrust expressed by the hon. arid
learned member for Bath—(cheers and laughter)—and he
would not consider it necessary to enter into any further ex-
planation. He had done so on • former occasion he bad
shown the statements of the hon. and learned gentleman to
be erroneous by printed papers, and to far from removing
his impressions, he brought down a re-statement of them.
For three reasons he would not enter into any further ex-
planation on this question. He trusted that the house
"greed generally with those members to whims the go-
vernment shnuld be obliged for their expressions
of confidence in the fulfilment of their declarations.
The hon. and learned gentleman, who could not find • good
motive for any act, thought that the government had given
eight millions to conciliate the Roman esthetics of Ireland.
It had, however, never entered into his (Lord J. Russell's)
imagination before, that in advancing the money of the
exchequer, in order to save from starvation an unfortunate
People who had been stricken down by a great calamity,
that in so doing the government were acting as the hon.
and teamed gentleman seemed to think, against the princi-
Pin of political economy, or were consulting the feelings of
any particular class of the people. (Hear, hear.) The
horned gentleman remarked that it might happen
that there might be • ministry in power which, having no
merits of its own, might have attained that power by the
dimensions of their opponents, and might mismanage and
misgovern. That certainly might very well occur as other
things might happen. It mugnt, for instance, happen, that
a city in the welt of England might choose to send for its
representative to parliament a gentleman who, without ever
proposing any wise measure of his own, thought it enough
to cavil at, and find fault with, every other (hear,
heir," and laughter) a gentleman, whose theories
were generally inapplicable to tha country to which
ha belonged, and totally at variance with the opinions
of those to whom he addressed them—(hear, hear)—but
who did attract a considerable degree of attention, because
It was known that one party or another, in short every
luny in that house would come in for a great deal of sharp
abuse expressed in a very epigrammatic manner. (Cheers
and Latter.? It might happen that a city in the west of
Englan might have the caprice to send such • member
(renewed laughter)—and from such a member they might
expect, if he was speaking of the right hon. gentleman who
had been at the head of the government of this country he
would imagine no looter motive for him when he declared
that he wished the Roman catholics to be educated,
than that he was endeavouring to outbid those
who were at present the unspent" of the Treasury
bench; and who, if he was alluding to those in
Power, and to the relief they might be able to afford to the
people of Ireland, could think of no better reason than that
they were endeavouring to conciliate a particular doss.
(Rear, hear.) Such a person was utterly unable to conceive
say wisdom in the plans or generosity in the motives of other
members of that house, whether in office or out of it—
whether they belonged to one party or another--(eheers)—
and he should say that each a member would take a very
false impression both of parties and of individuals. (Loud
cheers.) To revert to the subject before the how', he must
my that although it was to be regretted that the government
had meet unooasciously given nee to a flame of religious

opposition--although[lloo4 had been expressed by
protestant dissenters which the government bad had
no reason to expect, for they were at variance with the
sentiments advocated by Mr. Baines and other dissenters
who had been distinguished members of that house—(hcir,
hear)—although they might have ;had that misfortune, yet
an hon. member so expressing himself might have seen
during the course of nearly a week of debate, that there had
been in that house, among all its members, • signal forgetful-
ness et all party ties—of all individual and party interests
—a very general wish to benefit the people of this country—
• desire common to all to see their countrymen raised hy
education to • higher moral rank—(cheers)—a feeling which
did the greatest honour to members of that house,
who had been for years opposed to the present govern.
ment—(cheers)---and who were willingly lending their
11 co-operation ; whilst others who were supporters of the
government en other occasions thought their plan of educe-
tion contained defects —he would say that any person,
watching fairly and candidly the course of the debate in
that house, could not but feel the highest run cet for an
assembly which had thus debated a great question so inti-
mately connected with the welfare of the people. (Cheers).
That was the prominent feeling in his mind. (Hear, hear.)
He thanked the great majority .of that house for the confi-
dence which they had ',down in the declarations of the
government ' • but, above all, he exulted in the proof which
the speeches delivered in the course of the debate had given
that the members of that house had really at heart the
improvement of their fellow.eitixens, and desired to make
no distinction, hut where there was the greatest need they
wished to give the most assistance. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. BUNCOMBE said the noble lord had not answered
the question of the hon. and learned member for Bath, atter
all ; that question was, when a measure extending the grant
to the Roman catholic* would be proposed ? Would tte
government endeavour to bring forward their minutes this
session ? He believed that negotiations had been going on
between religious wets and the government, with a view of
throwing the catholic* overboard. After a repetition of some
of km former arguments, the hon. member concluded by
sillag that he should vote for the motion sf the hon.
member for Southwark.

Mr. BROTHERTON hoped the hon. baronet would not
press his motion to a division, as he belioved it would be
better for the esthetics and the country that the matter
should be left to the government, who, ho believed, desired
to do that which was just and right.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH had, on • former occasion,
understood the noble lord at the head of the government to
say that he intended to postpone any grant to the catholies
until neat year; but as the right hon. baronet, the member
for Devonport, had now said that he would endeavour to
&met minute as soon u he could to enable Roman catho-
lies to participate in the grant of public money for the pur-
pose of education; and as he had been advised from both
sides of the house, and amongst other hon. members, by the
right hon. gentlemen the member for Tamworth, whose
opinion on such matters of policy he always regarded with
great respect ;—(hear, hear)—moreover, as it now became a
questien whether he could place conlideLce in the promise of
the government, and understanding that he had received
such • pro Use, he would brg leave to withdraw his
motion. (Loud unroof " No, no.")
Mr. BRIGHT, with reference to • statement by Lord J.
Russell, that he (Mr. Bright) had voted against the May-
noeth grant because he objected to giving the money of the
state for the propagation of what he called religious error,
explained that he objected to all endowment of religion, but
not more to the endowment of • Roman esthetic, than toe '
Church of England, chapel. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. COLLETT objected to the withdrawal of the
motion.

Mr. S. CRAW FORD asked if he was to understand that
the government meant to propose a vote far the Roman
catholic* this session, for in that case he would consent to the
motion being withdrawn ; otherwise, he hoped the hon.
gentlem►n would persevere in his motion.
Mr. HUME said, the great object of the discussion oogbt
to be to promote L•ermony amongst all classes. (Hear, bear.)
If they divided upon tlapresent motion he thought it would
have the contrary effeeli
The house then divided—For the motion, 22
Against 203-181
Mr. EWART said that he would not bring forward his
motion at that late hour if it were not one of a
practical nature. His proposition was " that in districts
where there is only one school receiving state support,
children, whose parents object to the kind of religious in-
struction administered there, may be admitted to the school
without being subject t. such religious instruction." lie
thought that was a must equitable proposition. Unless it
was adopted, they would hays iojvs'sce done to the dis-
senters in England, and in Wales to the church of England.
Mr. AGLIONEY seconded the motion.

Sir G. GREY said the principle on which this resolution
was founded seemed to him to be the same as was submitted
to the house by the hon. baronet the member for the Tower
Hamlets (Sir W. Clay), though it was more reatncted in
its application. He therefore had the same objection to it.
The hon. gent spoke of these as state schools. They
received the E. s. d. of the state, it was true, but they
were not state wheels. (Hear, bear.) They were voluntary
schools, founded and supported by voluntary contributions
and exertions. and if they were to impose conditions, he wee
afraid that the hon. gentleman's proposition, instead of
accomplishing the object he had in view, would, if carried,
involve the rejection of the grant altogether by the National
Society and the British and Foreign School Society.
(Hear, hear.) He would, however, express his own wish
and gratification that there might be a greater absence of an
exclusive system of teaching in their schools, and that chil-
dren might be admitted without insisting on a particular
relii;icus instruction. (Hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH mid that there was this difference between
the motion of the member for Dumfries and the motion of
the hon. member for the Tower Hamlet', that the former
dealt with n practical grievance, which the latter did not.
Mr. FINCH said that, taking even a/practical view of the
subject, he did not think the house could agree to the mo-
tMn of the hon. member.

Mr. ADDERLEY Wt that the only course which could
be usefully pursued was that which the government had
eelectel, of encouraging individuals and societiesto discharge
the it duty to the poor.
Mr. II ME said that in his own neighbourhood in Nor-
folk there was a population of 1,200 for which no school had
been provided, and none could be obtained if the church in.
gated on the introduction of the Catechism. He did not
know how those who were sensible of the wants of the
country could resist the motion.
Mr. PROTHEROE opposed the motion.
Sir W. CLAY said that if the motion wi re pressed to •
division, he should vote for it; but he thought that the dis-
cussion alone would be beneficial.
Mr. P. HOWARD thought the hon. member should defer
his resolution until some practical griey. nee had arisen.
Mr. E WART said that, after the opinions which had been
expressed, be should not press his mama.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
Sir G.CLERK expressed his deep regret that, according to
the answer given by the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) to a ques-
tion pet by himself (Sir G. Clerk) that evening, the paro-
chial schools of Scotland were to be altogether excluded from
participation in the grants. He saw no reason whatever for
that exclusion, and he hoped that the subject would be
further considered by the government.
Mr. HUME contended that the parochial schools now
ested on a sound principle, being thrown for their support
on the locadin• ; and he considered that the proprietors ought
to be awned in order to raise • better salary for school-
masters.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that when the right hon. gen-
tleman (Sir 0. Clerk) had put to him his question in the
early part of the evening, he had had but • quarter of an
hour to consider the notice, and he could not give any mi-
tuned opinion. He was quite ready to consider the matter
in the committee of council, but he owned it still
appeared to him that they must either take the
principle of giving. to schools for which there was
a voluntary subscription, or, if they gave to Scotch schools,
supported by assessment, they must assist other schools, sup-
ported in the same way ; and then 100,0001. would not be
sufficient. lie was prepared to consider the matter maturely,
and he hoped the right hon. gentleman would not take the
answer which he had given as final. (Hear, hear.)
The report was then received.
RAILWAYS, ire. (IRELAND).
The house having resolved 'self into committee, Mr.
Greene in the chair,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose and
said that the house would no doubt bear him out that in the
debates which had occurred on the proposals of the noble
lord the member for Lyna, he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had never expressed any opinion &demon to rail-
ways in Ireland, but only opinions adverse to the
financial part of the measure which the noble lord
had introduced to them. Toe proposal which
he had now to submit to them was a measure of a very
different character, and of • much more limited nature
than that of the noble lord. His proposal was not to ad-
vance money rashly to any railways that might apply, but
merely to such railways as, under the terms of the existing
law, were in • oonditiou to borrow monies of the govern-
ment. The amount he should now propose to advance was
620 0001., which he should propose to lend to three different
railway companies, which had complied with all the require-
ments of the existing acts. The lint line he proposed to
assist was the Great South Western Railway of Ireland. (A
loud cry of " hear, hear," from Mr. Shell, followed by much
laughter.) The capital of that line was 2,600,000/. of
which 1,400,0001. was paid up. The company premised
to raise by call, a further sum of 600,0001., to
be expended between this time and the month of
December • and what he proposed was, to place at
the disposal of the loan commissioners to advance to
this company in five or six instalments a sum of 500,0001.
to be paid back at each time as the calls were received By
this advance he anticipated that 16,000 additional men would
be employed upon the parts of this line incompleted up to
Cerk, and that the line itself would be able to be brought
into operation before the next winter On • similar principle
he proposed to lend 83,0001. to the Waterford and Kilkenny
Railway Company, which had 250,0001. capital, of which
125,0001. bad been paid up, and which proposed to
raise on calls a sum equal to the amount to be advanced.
The third railway, to which be proposed to advance 36,0001.,
was the line from Dublin to Drogheda, which had 150,0001.
capital, of which 100,0001. bad been paid up. These loans
would be advanced in the terms usual with the loan com-
missioned ; they having, of course, reported themselves lel ie.
fied with the security offered. The house would ate from this
statement that the total amount to be advanced was 620,0001,
which was to be repaid as he said before, in instalments at 6
per cent. interest. Now, he was about to make • statement
to the house which be wrs sure they would receive with
great pleasure, namely, that during the last month there had
been • great diminution at expenditure upon the relief
works. (Hear, hear.) Nothing could be more important
than to substitute profitable employment of this sort for the
employment under the relief acts, and they would, there-
fore, be glad to find that during the last six weeks the re-
duction bad been very considerable, and that the expendi-

tare was now going on at a rata not exceeding
600,0001. a month, being a diminution of 400,0001.
in the four weeks of April, as oompared w ith the four weeks
of the month preceding. In the week ending the 24th of
March the expenditure had been 245,0001., whilst in the
week erding the 24th of April it was only 125,0001. That
proportion had been sustained throughout the month, and a
further diminution, he was glad to say, had taken place
from that slay. Some of the labourers had been taken of
by the new bill, but none had beta taken into employment
by the landlords.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Had there not been an increase under
the soup kitchen expenditure ?
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The in-
crease under that head by no means correspAided to the
decrease under the relief labour act. He was glad to '
say that the gentry of Ireland hid conducted the proceed-
ings under that bill in an economical manner. He really
considered the money to be advanced in this way as the
best possible substitute fur the employment which
they might otherwise have been obliged to extend,
and as the total expenditure in Ireland W6B not to
be increased by these loans, and as no difficulty would be
incurred in the exchequer, inasmuch as the advances would
be made in file or six instalments, extending over the
period between this time and November, he thought be
could confidently ask the house to concur in the rs solution
he should now put in the chairman's hand, that a sum of
620,0001. be advanced by the Lords Commissioners of the
Treasury to the loan commissioners of Ireland, to be by
them applied as directed.
Before the resolution was read,
Mr. HUME rose and said, that having heard the Chan•
teller of the Exchequer's speech, he really must fay that he
had consider:able duubts upon this subject. Let them look
at the state of the money market ? They proposed
to lend these railway companies more than half a mil-
lion at five per cent., whilst they could not get
money in the market themselves under six or seven.
So great was the difficulty at the present time in the City,
that scarcely a bill of the best house could be cashed. Ex-
chequer bills were at a discount, and yet they propsed to
lend this large sum of mosey at a time of such unparalleled
pressure. He really could not agree to vote such a sum at
such a time, end he should therefore move " that the clmir-
man do report progress."
Mr. OOULBUI(N observed that the question openedby
the last speaker being one calculated to give rise to muen
discussion it might be advisable to accede to this amend-
ment.

B. OSBORNE mid he was completely taken by sur-
prise that so important a question as the present should have
boon brought forward at such an hour of the night. (It was
pro twelve o'clock.) For hicown part, he begged to say that
M did not think this proposition any " boon" to Ireland.
Mr. ROEBUCK said his objection to the resolution
affected its principle. That objection was a very strong one
—so strong that he should not consider it right to let the
vote pass, but should take the sense of the house upon the
abject on every occasion that he had an opportunity of so
doing. He should decidedly object to going on.
Lord G. BENTINCK Certainly he should not object to
going forward. " There is more joy over one sinner that
repenteth." (Loud laughter from the Opposition.) Ile
was greatly rejoiced to find that her Majesty's government
bad at length discovered that it was cheaper fir England to
lend money upon reproductive works than on tha
unless relief works recently so much admired. He
was glad to find the Chancellor of the Exchequer
better instructed uow than he was three months ago
as to the number of men to whom railways would give
lllMployment. Ho (Lord G. Bentinck) had proposed to lend
rib millions to employ 110,000 men. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer now found that eix millions would employ more
than 1.4,000 men. The Irish people, when this debate
reached them, would be grievously disappointed to find that
it was an erroneous calculation of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that prevented their having the benefit of the
larger measure three months ago. But he trusted they scald
have the whole sixteen millions at last. This 020,0001. was,
no doubt, only the first instalment. The propositions were
identical, except in liberality. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer talked of his (Lord G. Bentinck'e) proposal as
advancing money without discrimination. No such thing.
Me proposal was to advance money to such Irish railways only
as the railway oommissionen might report of favourably.
The CHANCELLOR of theE XCHEQUER —Butyou said
nothing of capital paid up. Under this arrangement half
at least of the capital of a railway borrowing must have
been paid. You would have lent to them whether paid or
not—whether they were in a coadition to borrow or not!
Lord G. BENTINCK—IIe perfectly understood that
the Government proposed to lend 600,0001. to a
railway which had one hal of its capital paid
up ; but whets n was this better than his propos tion, that
not ailway shout:Venire assistance in which the capital paid
op was not equal ti one-third of the money to be advanced,
and of which the railway commissioners bad not reeorted
that the company would offer good security ? The objections
taken to his proposal resolved themselves, in fact, into two
propositions—first, the plan could not be an effectual
mode of relief; second, that in the then stateof the money
market it was not practicable. The government, however,
had now found out that his calculation as to employment
was an under-calculation ; and as to the state of the money

market, he need scarcely 'remind them that Exchequer Lille,
when his proposal was submitted, were at a con.
amble premium, whilst they were now at an
utter discount! And having touched upon this
point, he could not resist this opportunity of staking the
Chancellor of the Exchequer for some information as to the
state of the money market, and the prospects of the manu-
facturing and mercantile interests of the country. Was it
true that the best bills—if only with some 60 days to run—
could not now be discounted under 7or 8 per cent. ? Was
it true that Exchequer bills were scarcely saleable
at all ? He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if
these things were, and, if they were, whether he considered
them the result of railway speculations, or whether they had
not been ra her trm/lit to such a pass by that drain of gold,
inst ad of manufacturecto pay for foreign corn,which he and
his friends around him had always predicted ? (Hear, bear.)
He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, too, what ho
anticipated would be the effect if still larger exports of gold
should be necessary to pay for American corn? Whether he
would still continue to consider such a drain the effect of
railway speculation ? Whether he would still continue to
think that railways were the cause of exchequer bills being
down to a discount, and interest being at its
maximum ? Let the house remember what was
the state things when railway speculation was at
its height. The year before last the Bank of England
was obliged to reduce its interest to 3 per cent., in order to
get out its notes, and yet now Exchequer Bills had fallen to
4c, and the week before last there were really serious diffi-
culties about the payment of the Bank dividends (as we un-
derstood). He would venture to ask the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, further, whether it was not the
Bank Charter Bill of the right honourable baronet the
member for Tumworth which had thus crippled the
Bank of England, and caused itso to contract the circula-
lation of the country that the trade and commerce of the
nation were being driven to dust—to such a state, that %Idea
relief was afforded to the bank, they would soon have the
manufatturers of Manchester, the trade's of Li verpool, and the
operatives of the conutry generally, in a state verging upon
ruin ? Would the right non. gentleman further state to them
what he contemplated doing under them circumstances? Was
it the intention of the government t a let things proceed in
their downward course till trade could no longer bear it, or
did they mean to afford the Bank of England some oppor-
tunity of relaxing the rigid rules, which over and above
&circulation of 14 millions forbade her to issue a note unless
there was • golden sovereign in bee coffin for every pound
represented by her paper ? Sir Robert Peel's bill in his
(Lord Georges) opinion, might be a good measure for fair
weather, but he feared it was little calculated for such times
as the present ; and be called on the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, before he had thousands of bankrupts knocking at
his door, to give the Bank some discretion to Mae the con-
teaming a rculatiou to expand, and to prevent that ruin to
which they appeared at present to be hastening. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER deprecated
the introduction of a subject of such importance, and quite
irrelevant to the matter in hand, at that late hour of the
night, but as it had been introduced, he would beg to say a
few words respecting it. His nobly friend had founded his
apprehensions of our commercial ruin upon a total miscon-
ception of facts. The noble lord talked of the state of im-
pending ruin in which the Bank had involved our mer-
chant', by the restriction of its circulation, and the
consequent high rate of interest, whereas, in point
of fact, the Bank had not reduced its circulation
at ell, or in any degree given stringent application
to its laws. The ample state of the case was, on the
contrary, :that the bank had not carried what was called
Peel's act into operation soon enough, for if, at an earlier
stage of the drain it had limited its circulation in accordance
with that act, the present state of things would not have
assumed its settle' appearance. Had the spirit of that mea-
sure been acted upon by the bank during the last three
months, he did not, he would repeat, conceive we should be
in the position in which we now were. (Hem, hear.) What
were the acts ? On the 29th Augu-t last, the
bullion in the bank was 16,366,0001 , the circulation
at the same time being 20,426,0001. ; on the 17th
April last, the amount of bullion at the bank was
9,329,0001., exhibiting a decrease from the preceding
Augur of more than seven millions; what was the reduc-
tion in the circulatim at the same time ? Had the letter of
that bill been acted upon there would have been an exactly
corresponding reduction in the circulation, I.,ut, on the con-
trary, the circulation had only been reduced to the extent of
1,420.0001. It was quite extraordinary that, in the face of
the official statements which had been published within the
put fee weeks, in the London Gazette, and in well nigh all
the papers the noble lord should make the statement he
bad propounded to the boas', on this occasion, as to the re-
duction of the circulation. (Hear). There was not the
slightest occasion to augment the public apprehension on these
subject/by mis-statemeats or misapprehension. (Hear, hear.)
As to the accommodation afforded to the public by the bank,
what were the facts ? On the 29t tof August last the go-
vernment securities held in the banking department of the
bank amounted to 12,961,0001. ; the private securities at
the same period were 12,395,0001. ; and on the 12th April
last the government securities were 11,677,0001. ; showing •
decrease of 1,284,0001. ,• whereas the private securities had
Increased to 17,111,0001 ; and on the 23rd of April to
18,627,0001.: exhibiting • vastly augmented ac-
commodation to one portion of the metropolis.
The amount of government securities held by the bank on
the 2nd January, was 12,860,0001. ; on t e 9th January it
was 12,757,0001 ; and on the 16th the same amount. On
the 3rd of April it was 11,990,0001.; en the 10th, 11,574,0001. ;
on the 17th, 11,870,000/.; being considerable lower than in
the corresponding periods of January. the amorist of
gore rnment securities had been—on the 4th April, 1846,
13,146,0001.; on the 11th, 14,437.0001.; on the 18th,
13,0-'7,0001. In 1847, on the 3rd April, 11.990,0001. ; On
. I the 10th, 13,574,0001. ; on the 171 h, 11,677,0001. The in-
. creme in 1146, between the week before and the week after
the payment of the dividend,was 1,300,0001. ; in the present

gitt L' 1 profs.

MAILS.

The nails foe New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land, and New
Zealand will be made op on the evening of the 30th April.
The West India mails, excluding those for :desieo, ilooduraa, and
the flawumah, will be made op on the morning of the let May.
The overland sails for Gibraltar, Malts, Greece, the lonian Islands,
/23-pt, Aden, Ceylon, (long-Kong, and Claim, via doutbarapten,
will-be made up on the morning of the 9rd May.
The mails for British North Americo, Bconuda, and the United
States, will be made up on the evening of the 3rd May.
The mails for the Brindle, the /tiler Plate, Monte Video, Pernam-
buco, Bahia, Madeira, sad Bathos Ayres, will be made up on the
evening of the 4th May.
Inc mails for Vigo, Oporto, Lebow, Madeira, Cadiz, and Gibraltar,
will lie made un on the morning of the 7th May.
The overland dosed mall., via Marseilles, to the Mediterranean,
Lead Aden, Ceylon, India, Hoag Kong, kw, will be made up en the
evening of the 7th May.

HIGH WATV.R AT LONDON-ISKIDGE.
Teo DAT —Morning, 5 de. past 0 ; Afternoon. 27 Oda. DOA 0.
To.lloaaow —Monde& 48 de. put 0; Afternoon, 7 dn. pest I.

LONDON, TUESDAY, APRIL 27.

THE debate, in which the members of Prussia's first
parliament have essayed their powers of eloquence
and lineal skill is highly creditable to all parties,
and es well for the future. The monarch's open-
ing speech was, in some respects, exceedingly ill-
judged. Nothing could be more natural than that
a monarch of those latitudes should feel "zany mis-
givings as to the important step which he was about
to take. Since its birth, the Prussian nation has been
held in leash, and governed in military fashion.
For a king to let ge this hold, and acknowledge in
one day his subjects as freemen, and their represen-
tatives as sharing in his power, was an act which might
well make the nerves shake, and the will falter, of a
bolder sovereign than Faenxulc WILLIAM.
A speech, conceived in the midst of such misgiv-
ings, naturally caused disappointment. That portion
of it which more than hinted that the regular
summoning of the estates would depend much upon their
good behaviour, especially grated upon the as-
sembly. The old and provisional edict of the
late king declaring that all laws affecting
property or rights should be laid before the provin-
cial states, until such time as a united representative
assembly should be called, manifestly implied that each
general assembly, when called, should exercise and
absorb permanently the functions of the provincial
states. The kings speech, however, seemed to leave
open the possibility of a recurrence to the old system
whilst even the limited duty reserved for the states,
of examining the annual report of the revenue, was
represented as one that might be performed by the
old permanent committee of the provincial states.
This committee might be made to examine and to
sanction mere loans and taxes, and the promised re-
presentative system might be titled in its birth; and,
at all events, its duration seems to be made contingent
on the servility of the deputies.
So strong was this feeling, that on the opening
of the diet for debate loud objections arose to return
an address of thanks at all; one of remonstrance
was declared to be more fitting. Count SCHWERIN
proposed, and BECKERATH, one of the com-
mons of Rhine province, took the lead, and very
ably summed up the. grievances of the assembly
in an address. This address reminded the
monarch that his sire had promised an im-
perial representative assembly, not a mere union of
provincial states; that a yearly summoning of this as-
sembly had been contemplated at the same time, viz., in
1820 ; that the future assembly was not merely to
audit,but to gives co-guarantee of financial operation' ;
and that much as they respected the royal word, even
when causing pain, they could not but deem them-
selves to possess an especial power with respect to
the state debts, such as neither provincial states nor
their committee could fitly exercise.
Such was the address, as proposed by the extreme
opposition, and developed by the deputies of towns,
BECHERATH and HANSEMAN. The speech of the
latter, the well-known leader in the provincial state of
Rhenish Prussia, was most remarkable. Not con-
fining himself to legal or constitutional arguments,
11A.NSEMAN launched into the great ocean of European
politics ; declared that Prussia, without national
unity, menaced by two colonial empires, by Russia
and by France, could never successfully resist
both or either, except by the creation of •
free nationality, in which prince and people
would join. Prussia, free and united, dragged Ger-
many after her, or rather represented Germany ; and
he felt, when he spoke thus, that there were behind
him, not fifteen millions of Prussians, but twenty-
five millions of Germans. What they debated,
therefore, was not merely the freedom and hap*.
ness of Prussia, but those of Germany and of
Europe..
In vain did the Marshal of the Diet seek to repress
this exuberant eloquence, which we are glad to see the
Censor did not interfere with, for the menaces both to
Russia and to France, appear in full in the
Prussian Casette. HANseMMAN s eloquence and BECK-
, ERATH'I3 address were combated by Count ARNIM,
! the most liberal of Prussian statesmen and of the

king's friends. He admitted the justice of the objec-
tions, but urged the disadvantage of insisting upon
them. "If the states," said the Count," call in question
the justice or the right of what the King has granted,
this Is offering to the King the example and oppor-
tunity of himself recalling and considering much
which he has done." The Count therefore pro
toomit:the special objections contained in the address,
and to trust to his Majesty's wisdom and justice to
reconcile the new law and constitution with the pro-
mises of the late King's edicts.
This-seemed by no means to satisfy even the
moderate men of the assembly, who thought the
occasion called for expressions more firm and full.
Accordingly, Baron AVERSWALD, of Konigsberg,
proposed to preface Count ARNIM'S amendment
by the declaration that the states deemed themselves
possessed of all the rights allotted to the imperial
states by the edicts of the late King in 1820 and 1823.
When these amendments were put to the vote, there
were 290 ayes for Count ARNIM'S amendment, 303
noes ; whereas, when Baron ACERSWALD'S amend-
ment was
.put, it was carried by rising and sitting, a
large majority showing itself. The final vote was
484 for the address thus modified; 107 against.
It would appear from this division that the King
and government might count on a large majority,
there being not more than 100, or one-fifth of the
assembly. of ultra-liberal notions. At the same time,
the pure royalists are evidently also in a minority ; the
vest and influential numbe-r of votes consisting of
the liberal class, bent on furthering reform and pre-
I venting revolution.
All, however, will depend on the mode in which the
King takes the gentle remonstrance of his it des. It
is unfortunate that he has to answer the address in
person, for he, too, has get the cacoiqhea of political talk-
ing, as well as his deputies; and it his Majesty
thinks proper to deliver them another mystical lecture
on their impropriety, instead of accepting their ad-
dress simply, and declaring that he meaned to say
precisely what they have said, should he entangle him-
' self in his first constitutional essay with a wordy
war, then he will inevitably be set down as a JAMES
1., a pragmatical prince, that knows not how to
grapple_ with realities.
FREDERICK WILLIAM is closely watched and sur-
rounded by foes. Russia is most hostile, and the
Emperor is about to visit the south German states in
order to prevent their flinging themselves into the
Prussian movement. France, if we may judge from
her journals, looks on the King of PRCSSIA'S efforts
with more suspicion than love. Austria's opi-
nion it is easy to divine. The greatest cause of
delight to these enemies of Prussian constitutionalism
would certainly be any extravagant conduct on the
part of the liberal deputies, any manifest breach be
tween them and the court, and any turbulent mani-
festations on the part of the peop'ee,tker in Berlin or
the provinces. Such symptoms would be thrice wel-
come to the Czar and to every champion of despotism.
And it is therefore that we pat up anxious vows for
Prussian moderation.

THERE is no sentiment, we believe, in which the
whole inhabitants of Great Britain, of all classes,
sects, and opinions, are more heartily and entirely
unanimous than in contempt for those selfish and
thankless Irish brawlers, whom even the terrible
pressure of the time cannot silence in their noisy and
malignant attacks upon England. It is seldom ex-
pedient—it is never pleasant—to encourage any un-
iriendly feeling between different classes of the com-
munity ; but for the sake of maintaining and
strengthening the connexion between the two
divisions of the empire—in justice to England, which
is making such willing sacrifices—and in mercy to
Ireland, which we would protect against the danger
of alienating the sympathies on which her present
existence depends—we feel bound to express the scorn
and disgust with which the speeches at a recent
meeting at Limerick will have been universally
regarded. The bluster of the Conciliation Hall
Rump is comparatively innocent. The tritons
of the minnows who have succeeded the great
ENOSICIITIION of Repeal, must repeat their vapid
fallacies, and vent their make-believe sedition, to se-
cure the weekly pittance of rent which still dribbles
into their once overflowing exchequer: they meet
for nothing else. Those who listen hear what they
came to hear; and public opinion regards the whole
farce with contemptuous indifference, having always
a kind of tolerance for those who labour in their voca-
tion, even though that vocation be disreputable.
. The contempt which the speakers at Limerick call
forth is of a graver kind. They met for an osten-
sibly proper and honourable purpose—to express
gratitude for a proof of timely sympathy, and to
reeiprocrate the international good feeling which
the American people have lately shown both
by word and act; but grapes will grow on
thorns, and figson thistles, before any sound orgenerous
feeling is substituted for the vulgar virulence in the
mouth of that worst specimen of a bad class, the Irish
mob•sycophant. Neither the bad taste of attempting
to involve their American benefactors in a quarrel
with which they have no concern, nor the risk of
checking by insolence and ingratitude the course of
English benevolence, deterred the Limerick agitators
from extracting poison from kindness, from venting
their professed hatred of England, and indulging in
the safe treason, calling for American assistance
against her. What is it to them if foreigners decline
again to furnish opportunities by their benefactions
for seditious attacks on a friendly power? What is
it if a few more thousands of their countrymen starve,
as long as the ill-taught idlers around them cheer
every word of abuse according to its violence, and
every statement in proportion to its falsehood?
The government of the United Stake, as our
readers are aware, liberally commissioned the James-
town, one of their ships of war, to convey to Ireland
a cargo of provisions, purchased by the contributions
of a number of benevolent individuals, residing, we
believe, principally in the Atlantic States. Several
gentlemen belonging to the American merchant
marine volunteered their services sit officers, and
everything which good taste and kind feeling could
suggest was done to make the seasonable gift wel-
come and acceptable to the Irish, for whose relief it
was intended. Mr. EVERETT, the chairman of the
committee for forwarding the relief, was well known,
during his long residence in England as American
minister, for his desire to promote friendly relations
between his own government and that to which he
was accredited, and we have no doubt that he che-
rishes the same sentiments in his dignified academic
retirement
With the courtesy of a gentleman-and a statesman
he anticipated the arrival of the Jamestown on the
coast of Ireland by a letter to the Lord Lieutenant,
in which he requested that every facility might be
given to Mr. FORBES and the other officers of the ship
in the discharge of the benevolent duty which they
had undertaken. It is anseceseary to say that the
Irish authorities willingly and promptly attended to
his request, and we have no doubt that Oil gentlemen
who brought the Jamestown to Ireland have found
that their active kindness has been appreciated as it
deserves. They must, however, even with all their
experience of democratic freaks, have been surprised
and indignant at the turn given to the meeting at
Limerick which assembled professedly to do them
honour. Of course the first attack was upon the minis-
try. " Was there any one is the room," a speaker
asked, "to say one word in favour of Lord Jona
RUSSELL ?" We should have thought it would have
been more to the purpose to have said something in
favour of Mr. Eveaerr, or of Captain FORBES, or if
it was thought fit, of Mr. POLK and his Secretary of
the Navy. But praise, and gratitude, and good
will, are not familiar or easy utterances to a Limerick
demagogue. " What cared he (the speaker) for
lords? -What cared he for the base, brutal, and
bloody whip—the recreant, bribing knaves?"—in
allusion, we suppose, to the vote of eight millions
sterling by which the recreants, and the English
people in general, are now bribing the Irish poor—
to do what?—simply not to starve. The orator
warned his hearers, if they emigrated, against going
to Canada. Let them go any where—" to France,
to Spain, to Portugal, even tO RaMa—rather
than under English despotism." All English were
bad alike—" conservatives, radicals, whip, but the
whip were worst of all." We would not, however,
advise the parties who are praised by comparison to
rely too much on the compliment It is only because
the whigs, from their official position, are at present
more prominently employed in relieving Irish dis-
tress; because their days and nights are absorbed by
Irish business; because it is through their hands that
the stream of English bounty flows ; it is only because
they are from circumstances the most conspicuous
benefactors of Ireland, that they enjoy a superior de-
free of vituperation.
The meetingafterwards proceeded to give three cheers

for "Bunker'. Hill,*and for "the men who threw the
British tea into Boston harbour." It is generally con-
sidered ill-bred, in the presence of two reconciled oppo-
nents, fora third party to allude to their former quarrels.
It was not as invaders or enemies that the officers of
the Jamestown claimed and received the assistance of
the government authorities. They were acting pro-
, fiesedly in harmony with the English government,
and in some degree representing a frienily state. If
they possessed, as we doubt not was the case, the
feeungs of gentlemen, they moat have been ember-
, reseed by the attempt to identify them with a silly
and spiteful insult to England.
As to the tea which was thrown into Boston-
harbour, in resentment of the attempt of the English
parliament to levy a duty upon it, we should like to
know what analogy to present circumstances that cele-
brated act presents even to the Irish imagination.
Are we engaged in raising revenue from Ireland ?
Are we stopping the merchandise which is destined
for her shores:? All the harbours of Irelard are
heavy with ships, and the cargoes were purchased
with English gold ; but those cargoes consist of
wheat, and maize, and rye, of all provisions which
could be procured from every quarter of the globe,
and all for the same purpose, to feed the Irish
poor at the expense of England. Eight mil-
lions will, before long, have beeu expended in
this task, in addition to four hundred thousand
pounds contributed by voluntary subscription. And
with this grain, the produce of this liberality, these
patriots would blacken or whiten their harbours—or
rather talk of doing so—because Americans once on
nearly opposite grounds performed a similar deed.
Analogies may be absurd, and figures of speech in-
apt, but at Limerick they serve their turn, if they
only convey insult, ingratitude, and hatred.
We ....bserse that, with his wonted liberality, the no-
ble Parsee merchant, Sir J n MSETJ EE J LEJEEDIIOY, has
contributed :AN/I. to the Bombay subscription
for the Irish. When the Limerick repcalers acknow-
ledge his generosity-, they will probably show their
usual historical and statistical accuracy by identifying
the Parsee capitalists of Bombay with the Hindu° or
Mussulman warriors who have at different times
threatened our power. We have no doubt they will
thank him by three cheers for Ala.% R Mime and the
pass of Jugdulluk, or, if their knowledge reaches so
far hack, by nine times nine for the Brack Hole at
Calcutta.

The unexpected intelligence was received at Paris
on Saturday night, by telegraph, of the complete sub-
mission of the district of Kabylia, in Africa. The
despatches which brought these advices left Algiers
the 20th, aml consequently arrived in Paris in four days.
The mountain tribes have acknowledged themselves
subjects and tributaries of France; they have engaged
that no enemy of France shall be harboured by them.
The tribes and their chiefs are to keep the roads free
and safe, so that travellers without escort may pass
through the country. Oa the other hand, the gover-
nor of Algeria has engaged that so long as the
Kabyles observe these conditions, their country shall
not be invaded by the colonists. The difficulty
which arose in the Chamber as to the supplies for the
proposed expedition to Kabylia, will thus be evaded.
The tract of country which becomes tributary
to France bas the form of a triangle, the base of
which extends along the shores of the Nlediteira-
nean from Delbyo to Bougie, and the vertex of which
is at S-.4if. Bougie and Gigclli, which are the two
ports of Setif, have been blockaded on the inland side
for fifteen years. Henceforward Setif, which derives
its supplies from Constantine, will have the advantage
of these ports. European commerce will also be free
to penetrate this country, hitherto inaccessible. The
rich iron mines of Jurjura, says the Juurnal des
Debate, will be explored; perhaps even French
lengineers will go to teach the Kabyles the processes
of working them on scientific principles. The pros-
pects of Algeria have been greatly brightened by this
I happy convention. The chief lion-:Hasa, the capture
of whom we announced some days ago, has arrived
at Toulon, and is on his road to Paris, accompanied
by the captain of engineers, who was mainly instru-
mental in his capture.
An animated debate took place in the Chamber of
Deputies on Saturday on the subject of the abolition
of colonial slavery. Petitions in favour of its imme-
diate and unconditional abolition without compensa-
tion to the slave-proprietors, bearing 11,000 signa-
tures, were presented to the chamber. The grounds
on which this measure, or some modification of it,
is urged upon the legislature is mainly the fact that
the law of 1845, to provide measures for the gradual
abolition of slavery with the concurrence and co-
operation of the colonial proprietors themselves, has
been utterly ineffective, and rendered dormant
through the bad faith of the slave-owners and their
obstinate resistance in carrying its provisions into
effect. In fact it would seem that hitherto
the colonial proprietors have so managed that
the measure is utterly abortive. The committee
on the petitions had agreed that they should be re-
ferred to the presichnt of the council, and the minister
of the colonies, and the question now before the
chamber is, whether that recommendation of the com-
mittee be carried into effect.

At the moment of adjournment on Saturday even-
ing, the minister of the colonies intimated his inten-
tion to oppose the recommendation of the committee,
and the debate was adjourned till Monday. The op-
position of the cabinet was of course expected, the in-
variable policy being to do nothing. Not a single
measure of amelioration, nor any substantive law, save
and except the granting the supplies, has been allowed
to pass the chamber during the present session.
The speech of M. Jules de Lasteyrie, in which that
deputy, with great eloquence and moderation,
described the atrocious treatment of the slaves in
the colonies, was listened to by the chamber
in silence, but with profound emotion. No
report we can give would afford an adequate idea of
' the tortures inflicted on the slaves, and the monstrous
examples of partiality and injustice in the legal tri-
bunals, whose public duty it is to right their wrongs.
One proprietor, for instance, found guilty of the
murder of five slaves, was sentenced to only fifteen
days' imprisonment. Thus, it appears, that in the
estimation of these
,judges, the life of a slave is equi-
valent to three days loss of liberty of a colonist. The
procureur-general and the presiOnt of the court who
disgraced themselves by this scandalous sentence
were themselves, it appears, slave-owners, and friends
of the wirderer. To these and numerous other
revolting instances, produced by M. de Lasteyrie,
M. de Mackau only stammered some unconnected
words to justify his administration, and announced
that he would move the previous question. A con-
siderable sensation was produced in the chamber by
this disenasion.

The Madrid mails of the 19th have brought little
intelligence of general interest. It appears that the
King Consort has been at length persuaded to adopt
a more becoming course, at least as far as regards
external appearances, for he attended the Queen on
horseback in her promenade on the 19th, this being
' the first time for several weeks he has been seen in
company with her Majesty.
Previous to the public session, the congress assem-
bled on the 19th, to choose the committees to report
upon the different projects of law presented to the
chamber. It was said that the majority of the mem-
bers of the committees were unfavourable to the
measures of M. Salamanca, and many doubts were
entertained as to the support which the Pacheco
cabinet would meet in the Cortes. A general im-
pression seemed to prevail that a further ministerial
change would ensue, and the cabinet was generally
ssppooken of having M. Olozega at its head. The
Hera:do annonnors that 4,000 men were Fiat in
motion towards Badajoz, under the orders of General
Count Vista Hermoza.