The Express.
London, England, 1847-01-20 00:00:00

sloes, an,' multiplies all her miseries. ledge the man who
is to be con. idered as representing the people of Ireland ?
I believe that he does no such thing. I believe the people
et Ireland to b..• a great and an honest people, and i cannot
believe they wou:1 elect such a representative." But what
they, the parliametit of England, now required, was security
for what Ireland woold do for herself. Was it to be sa2d
if Providence v sited a nation with famine, that, they. fore,
all her population were to become beggars for the bounty of
others ? Had they not a right to expect that these people
would have some energies within themselves ; would exhibit
some power of maintaining themselves? Among a people
who cried out for nationality, was there not one man who
could raise the standard of independence in the simple shape
of not being a beggar? The English had had too much of
this. If it had not been for England, the Irish, instead of
now being a people afflicted with the chronic dis-
ease of famine, might have been a people doing
something for themselves. Ireland was in just the state in
which he had known many a country parish in England
which was so unfortunate as to have a resident " henevoli nt
lady." The" benevolent lady" naturally created a body of
paupers around her. And so with Ireland. The English
had been an industrious and a successful people, and out of
their abundance they had fed the people of Ireland, 'till
they became a race of pauper beggars. Such a state of
things, however, could never last. Our benevolence could
only be a passing benevolence. To maintain eight millions
of people on charity was impossible ; and it was just this
point that he wished to press upon the noble lord who sat
before him—that it was impossible to maintain a people by
" government regulation." (Hear, hear.) The mainspring
of exertion—the jack-weight of social enterprise—was pri-
vate interest. Take that away, and the system became dis-
located—the machine would not go on. He warned the
noble lord to bear this in mind, and exercising that civil
valour for which every one gave him credit, not to yield to
the clamour of his Irish supporters, but to consider that he
was legislating for three kingdoms and not for one, and that
it was necessary to establish this great leading principle that
a people to be maintained must maintain themselves.
(Cheers.) Depart from that rule, and he (Mr. Roebuck)
said emphatically that there would be no end to the misery
they would create—no termination to the direful consequen-
ces both to Ireland and to England. There was not a
pauper in England who would not then have a right to
rise up and say, " You fed the people of Ireland, now feed
me." (Cheers.) But he knew it would be said, "If you
impose a poor-law on Ireland you ruin the landowners."
The present landlords were merely the nominal powessurs
of the Irish land ; the mortgagees being the real possessors
of it. Institute the English poor-law in Ireland and the
consequence must be that those who were called Irish land-
owners would in nine cases out of ten be swept out and the
mortgagee would take possession. What would be the conse-
quence? The mortgagees would have to take the responsibility
of the landlords and to meet the circumetancesof the pc mle.
" Oh !" but it would be said, " you would sweep away from
Ireland all that is elegant, all that has leisure, all that contri
butes to the civilisation of the state." What he (Mr. Roe-
buck) wanted was a " happy " state ; and he did not see
bow, at present, the landlord system contributed to it. This
was all h. wished to say on this subject. As to any tempo-
rary expedient for opening the ports, he was quite prepared
to adopt it; indeed, he thought it ought to have been
adopted two months ago. Not that he thought it would do any
good—n'ither did he believe that much benefit would arise
from the permission to use molasses in the brewing of beer.
But, the hon. member continued, he could not sit down
with( ut one word as to the paragraph in the speech advert-
ing to our foreign relations. In the present state of Eng-
land peace with all the world was of the greatest moment.
We were fast c .ming, he hoped and believed, to that state
of things when there would be a full understanding of its
blessings, and a full understanding also of the mischievous
conduct of that iran who, for idle purposes, desired to dis-
turb the tranquillity of Europe. Her Majesty's speech re-
ferred to the maniage of two young ladies in Spain, one
occupying the position of queen and one the position of
infanta. As an Englidi politician, he did not think that we
had anything to do with the matter. It was said that
the Minister of Foreign Affairs having taken some umbrage
at the marria,gesof these young ladies had thought fit to enter
a solemn protest against the right of the children of the
Infanta's marriage to occupy the throne of Spain. Now, ha
passed by the question whether the noble lord had been out-
witted or not: he (Mr. Roebuck) thought most probably he
had ; but although this might be some excuse fer
despatches (not indeed such despatches—such an undigested
mass of compilatien, so bad in style and execution as those
he had seen—but really sound despatches such as a foreign
minister should write)—though, as he had said, the fact of
being beaten might be some even. e for writing despa•ches,
yet surely it could scarcely jive ify the entering of such a too-
test as that to which he (Mr. Roebuck) had referred. Why,
what had we to do with the throne of Spain ? What had
we to do with the question whether the Queen of Spain was 1,
likely to be fruitful or not ? Such matters might be interest-
ing to old gentlemen of 60 and young ladies of it, but, he must
say, that for a foreign minister who was out of his teens to be
entering into such discussions was rather beyond the line of
his official duties. What right had we to interfere with the
succession to the throne of Spain ?
- -

Mr. GRATTAN questioned the prudence and discretion
of the speech of the hon. member fur Bath. His satire
might be severe, but was it just ? Ills allusions to Ireland
were certainly not calculated to pour either oil or vinegar on
the wounds of the Irish people. Let the hon. member re-
collect that the houses in Regent-street, and Buckingham
Paluee itself had been built with Irish money. (Hear.) Let
him recollect that 100,0001. was annually taken from Ireland
to beautify this metropolis, And yet he called the Irish
people a nation of beggars. Why, all that had been grouted
hitherto was 11,000/. The hon. member's allusions to
Irish landlords were particularly misplaced. No set of men
had ever been so grossly calumniated as the Irish landlords,
who had actually not only given up their rents, but, in many
cases, sold their horses and other things,—all for the sake of
relieving their distressed peasantry. In one distillery in I
Dublin (Mr. Rose's), 1,000 barrels of oat, were consumed'
daily, which would furnish 16,000 stones of meal f r the
starving people. The hon. member for Bath had come, like
a blasting evil spirit, to sow sedition amongst the Irish party,
but he was convinced those gentlemen would not
follow either the advice or example of that honour-
able member. In reference to the principle which
had been acted on by the government, in affording'
relief to Ireland, he observed that it wait too bad to make
people die by hundreds upon the principles of political
economy. Government might have gent the experimental
squadron to Odessa, or Smyrna, or New York, where there
were 300 millions of bushels of Indian corn that could not
be exported for want of ships. Had government done, three
mouths ago, what they were now about to do, they would
have saved the lives of hundreds.
Mr. D. BROWNE said that he would not address the
house, but for the bitterness of the hon. member for Bsth,
who in order to void the acerbity of his waspish disposition,
stated that Ireland was a curse to England.
Mr. B. OSBORNE defended the conduct of the landlord..
of Ireland, and said that it could be proved that for the last
two centuries they were an improved and an improving
class. He condemned the government for placing Into the
hands of her Majesty such a speech as that which was de-
livered by her that day. There never was a speech of a
more thrilling nature as regarded Ireland. It congratulated
the country that outrage and disorder had been suppressed
as far as they might be by military and police. The proper
way to repress outrage was by pouring in food. He was of
opinion that somebody more competent than himself should
move a voteof want of confidence in her Majesty's ministers.
Sir R. INGLIS was glad the address woiild be presented
unanimously to her Majesty. There were, of mune,
dis-
puted points, but he would tint refer to them at present. Ile
hoped the session, which had opened with to title prospect
of comfort, would be blessed by the providence and grace of
God, so that the evils which now appeared inevitable might
by His mercy be turned away.
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to address the house at a period
when a great calamity affected a part of the kingdom, end
he must thank the house fur the disposition whteli it had
shown; not only to agree with unanimity to the address,
but to consider the extent of the calamity, and the measures
it might be thought proper to introduce, in a fair spirit, and
without any mixture of party bias. Ile could not wonder
that the hon. m irober for Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien) should
condemn the conduct of the government, because his opinion
was so diametrically opposed to theirs; but he had to
maintain as to the policy of the bon. member for Li-
merick, and which, he thought, was supported in a simi-
lar spi tit by his noble friend the member for Lynn (Lord
G. Bentinck), it was a course which no government nughl to
pursue, and it would certainly have led to a greater number
of deaths front famine. The opinion of the lion. gen lemon
was that the government ought to hare ransacked the world
for foal, that they should have appeared as bidders in every
market in Europe and America, and should have attempted to
fiaid the people of Ireland with the produce thus procured. No
sooner would such an intention have been deelar.d than
there would have been an end at once of all private enter-
prise and of the application in this great country of the means
and skill of our merchants—(hear, hear, hear)—and all
would have been abandoned to the care of the government
who had been so presumptuous as to undertake such a task.
And what would have been the prices asked when it was
known that the British government were the Wide), for the
seho`e quantity of grain ? The noble lord had talked of a
rise from 3s, to 95, in the price of Indian earn, but what
would have been the rise in the price of wheat if the Enelish
government had been obliged to buy it at whatever price
it might be sold ? (Hear, hear.) But supposing such a course
to have been adopted, there wee next to be undertaken the
whole retail trade of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) They had
heard of the great staff of officers at press w required,
but what would it have been if they hail had to distribute
this food in all parts of Ireland, and that of caws, must have
been done at somewhat under the mat price ? lie would
next ask what would bare been the course pursued with re-
g ird to the rest of the population of the United Kingdom ?
By robbing the other parts of the country of the corn which
would naturally have gone to them, the price would have
been enormously increased, and how could such a course be
justified? (Hear, hear.) Would not the labouring popula-
tion turn round and say, " Don't do this by halves—if you
fly in the face of all the arguments of Mr. 'on and Mr. Pitt
on the subject, let the work be wholly done, and let all
the Ishouring claw* of the three kingdoms procure their
food at fair prices, and you make yourselves responsible far
the whole nit these operations ?" (Hear, hear.) With regard
to some parts of Ireland where there hail been no trade in
provisions, it had been said there might have been art inter-
ference on the part of the government. There were cases of
exception, he admitted, and the government, in twenty-one
or twenty-two places on the west of the Shannon, had esta-
blished depots where torn could be sold. and supplied them
by government vessels. But he would not say that even
that interference was without its evil, fur he had seen
letters with regard to one of those places which stated
that the government depot had caused a person who
intended to set up a place for the sale of meal and flour to
abandon his object. (Hear, hear) 101010 nu irr.,r, of corn
h.,. neva puro...ssed Irons saw: to uwo Svc b‘lepi lug tubas

depots. Than there were complaints male with reference
to the employment of the poor under the Board of Works.
No one could be more aware of the imperfections of the
scheme, and the difficulty of remedying them, than he was,
but at the same time be must say the principle WAS smad
and just, because the question was not whether the works
were useful or not, but whether it was a good mode
of aseertaiuing who were the destitute, and furnish-
ing them with the means of procuring food without
destroying industry. (Hear, hear.) It was a common
mode of relief in this country to set men to break stones for
a considerable period while distress prevailed, in order to
keep the people supplied with food without interfering with
the ordinary trade and labour of the country ; but immedi-
ately there was a demand for labour, the people left that em-
ployment which was the hardest and worst rewarded, to go
to private employment and thus, when trade and industry
revived, this demand on the poor rates had been relieved.
(Hear, hear.) In Ireland the government had had to
contend with two difficulties. At the commencement
of the eperatiorus the number of persons employed did
not admit of any effeet:ve labour—they were idle and
loitering on the roads. (Hear, hear.) To remedy that
evil task-work wan introduced ; but then, by means of task-
work, and weekly wages for its performance, a great portion
of the men earned mere wages than they could get in the
ordinary employments of industry ; and, therefore, instead
of its being, as in England, the worst market into which
they could bring their labour, it had been the beet, and had
been preferred to any other. He mentioned these as instances
of the difficulties with which the government had to contend.
He could not but think, however much those works might
have been neglected, that the employment of 470,000
persons, representing not is ss than 2,000,000, taking their
families into account, and the payment of 158,000 f. in one
week, which woe the amount of the last weekly account,
showed that the government of the country was anxious, be
it in error or be it in mistake, to mitigate the destitution of
Ireland by the resources of the empire. Ile was (redline to
say with his right hon. friend, that, considering this to be a
national calamity, he thought the nationel resources were
fitly employed in endeavouring to meet it. (Hear, hear,
hear.) But considering what were the ordinary circum-
stances of the labouring population of Ireland for 30 weeks
of the year, and that they lived upon one meal of potatoes a
day no measureswhich the government could devise or parlia-
ment sanction, would prevent severe suffering. They would
not, like the people of England in such circumstances, meet
the calamity by abstaining from comforts, because they had
no comforts, and they never had more than a sufficiency of
food. With regard to the measures which they bad taken,
the government must be responsible; and they would not
consent that any enbonitnate officer should bear any part in
their responsibility. (Hear, hear, hear ) Mr. Trevelyan
was an intelligent gentleman of indefatigable and un-
tiring zeal, and with regard to any orders received
or orders transmitted if blame was to be given and censure
let it fall on them and not on Mr. Trevelyan. (Hear,
yawed With regard to the nature of the measures pro-
posed in the early pert of her Majesty's speech, those relating
to the admission of corn and the suspendon of the navigation
laws, it bad been said that those measures should have been
taken in November. That matter was seriously c nsidered
at the time, but it was considered that it would not be ad-
visable to draw away, at the commencement of a severe
pressure, those persons who had sesta in either house
of parliament. With regard to the corn-law, the
duty was not 14s. or 125., as it was last year,
It was reduced to 41. by the act of last session, and. though
he thought it right to recommend its suspension, he was of
npinion that the quantity of corn which would be imported
in consequence would be very considerable. (So we under-
stood the noble lord.] In the next place, there was an im-
pression at that time that wheat would not be high in price,
and it fell for some weeks from 63*. to 535. On the
whole, then, he did not thiuk they would have been justified
in calling parliament together in November, and still less
would they have been justified, after the deviation from the
act of parliament made by the lord lieutenant, in introducing
an order in council to set aside the law, without calling
parliament together. There was no commensurate advan-
tages for the danger of such an example. There were two
or three other topics in her Majesty's speech, on which he
would address a few remarks to the house. 'f he hon. and
learned member for Bath, entered a goal deal, after pro-
fessingthat he did not mean to enter, into the Montpensier
marriage. He read the translations of some of the papers
which had been read in the French chambers, which
were imperfect and incomplete. He had given
judgment upon those pipers, and he conceived
that the succession of any children of the Infanta would not
be contrary to the peace of Utrecht. He thought it desirable
to maintain the alliance with France, and not express an
opinion on the subject. He did not mean to enter into the
discussion before the papers were produced. lie should be
quite willing to leave the defence of any conduct of his for
which he was responsible, as a member of the government, to
the despatches of his noble friend, which would he laid
licfore the house. But he could not agree to the doctrine
which was entertained in some quarters that matters of this
kind were not worth the attention of the British parliament.
And he was the more inclined to differ from that opinion
because he agreed that there was a general indifference to
foreign politics in this country, and that public opinion did
not take the same warmth and interest which they (lid
in domestic policy, in questions in which their foreign policy
was concerned. But if the government of the country
were to show a similar apathy, and if, some years
after it appeared that injury had been done to the power and
station of the country, public opinion would blame, and
justly blame, the minister of the crown. (Hear, hear.) The
people of the country would say that they showed indif-
ference, because they reposed. confidence in the government
which was charged with their relations, and supposed that
they would see no essential injury was done. lie could not
but think that the matter was one of serious evil, if any ex-
pectation should :be formed by the French government of
uniting the two countries. He could not but think
that the attempts made by Louis the Fourteenth and
by Napoleon to govern the destinies of Spain,
to unite both countries in one system of Cosign policy would
be, if repeated again, more likely to lead to disputes in
Europe than if the governments were conducted separately
and independently, and each only attended to its own in-
terests. (Hear, hear.) He was only saying what appeared
to him to be a general, and at the same limo an incon-
trovertible axiom. It had been their policy to prevent such a
preponderance of any power in Europe as might lead to
war, and he could not think it a wise policy which world
not endeavour, by the efforts of diplomacy, to prevent a con-
tingency which, though it might appear remote,
yet might happen in a few years. The govern-
ment which preceded them took a great interest
in the question, and it was not a mere conference between
sovereigns, as the hon. and learned member seemed to sup-
pose, but it was Lord Aberdeen, the 'Mini-ter for Foreign
Affeire, who entered into a conference with M. Guisot on
the subject. Ile no doubt eonsidered it a matter in which
England had an interest, and he received aseurances which
were so far satisfactory to him that he did not think
it necessary to take any urgent steps on the sub-
ject. But the line which lie took, and which he
(Lord John Bernell) thought be was right in tak-
ing was to toy that if the Queen of Spahr should prefer
a descendant of Philip V., and the country approved of it
England would make no objection, but she conld not pro-
pose any candidate that would be disagreeable to Spain.
Neither could ahc consent that the marriage of the Queen of
Spain should immediately place a memloev of the royal fa-
mily of France on the throne of Spain. They had not
complete information of all that the French government
had done, because much had been done by means of
letters and communications of which no trace was left
behind; but the government agreed in what be be
lieved was the line pursued by the late government, and did
not wish to have any candidate. And with regard to one in
particular, Prince Leopold of Saxe Coburg, they never for a
moment entertained the wish to put him forward, or to sup-
port any pretensions he might entertain with regard to the
throne of Spain. And in any advice which he gave his sove-
reign, he found a ready willingness; nor did her Majesty
ever wish at any time, as he believed, that Prince Leopold
should be a candidate for the hand of the Queen of Spain
supported by England. He said this, because be knew it
had been industriously pent about that it was a dispute
between the French royal family, in an attempt to place a
member of their family on the throne at Madrid, and a
counter attempt on their part to place a mince connected
with the royal family of England in that pu-ition. Now, so
far se he was concerned, or so far as the late government
was concerned, as he believed, there never had been such
an attempt. (Hear, hear, from sir It. Peel.) He did not
know what Prince Leopill I would have said to the proposition
if formally made to him by the government of Spain. Ha
had been told that he was not likely to entertain it. But,
however that might be, he said they would not recommend
to Spain a candidate of their own, or be in any. way con-
cerned in the future internal government of Spain. (Ilea,
hear.) When they thought that the alliance formed so
might be prejudicial to the balance of power in Europe,
they did not hesitate to express their opinions upon A ,• sod,
though the hon. member for Oxford thought they Weida
have made no observations thereon to France, he (Lord J.
Russell) considered that it was more frank and more
becoming to the nation, to state what their objections were.
(Hear, hear.) They by no means, as was supposed, com-
mitted the wovernmeut of the country to future events;
but what they said, is substance and in spirit, was,
that, looking to the dangers that might flow from
what had been done, and that it was possible a con-
test might hereafter arise with regard to the succes-
sion to Spain, and that whenever that cue occurred
Eugland would take that course which was most essential
for her position amongst the powers of Europe, and most in
conf irmity at the Caine time with the wi.l of Spain—(hearr,
hear)—because he perfectly admitted with regard to these
matters, that if the prince who reigned in Spain was not one
to whom they could object on clear grounds of treaty, the
wish of Spain should be paramount on the subject.
(hear, hear.) It was ailftfrftioteii all halide that the treaty
of Utrecht provided that one and the same Nina
ought not to reign both in France and Spain.
Ail he would say, was that he most sincerely regretted that
he found himself opposed in opinion to what had been done
by the government of France, for he Gilt it was desirable
that this country and France should be on close terms of
friendship. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the other sub-
ject of foreign affairs which had been touched on, the extinc-
tion of the free state of Cracow, there was so little difference
of opinion, that he felt it to be unnecesiary to pay more
than that it seemed as if the tai .t which attached to the
first partition of Poland that most unholy act—(loud cheers)
—the moat to be condemned of any act amongst nations in
the history of modern Europe, attached to this last remnant
of a Polish state, and to induce the p swi rs parties to the
incorporation of the free state of Cracow into the do-
minions of Austria, into that forgetfulness of all oblii
gations to that most precipitate, and, as far as
itt appeared to him without any justifiable cause, abuse of
their power without considering the relations of justice which
they were bound to observe. (Loud cheers.) Ile wosld say
nn muse .11 this enhieet sill tee papers were presented to the
house. On Mouway next he would give an outline to the