The Express.
London, England, 1849-02-06 00:00:00

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=bid not been reechoed Cr taunted su to ofir
of that kind, sad tits logliolk =sobers o the lamb.
lease ought sot to oppress Disk landlords with that
taltiffi. Admitting the principle that property should
snorer& poverty, why shoeld not the property of
dealers and lawyers be rated ? Why should meet-
Crsad anaultauts esespe ? (Hear, hear.) He
Mae to the conclusion that a very oonsidershbo
feria might be established, without ratted* ono shilling in
the pawed. Let oat-door relief be abolished, and let work-
bilmetsbs aide self-supporting, and the entire expense would
be seined to about 600,0001. a year. Let a tax be levied
iltellidest to employ the able-bodied, and to develop* the
sensuress of the country, while it meshed the speculative
elleleriese. whether of companies or of individuals. Saab •
Ism would be cheerfully paid ; hardly a single person, pro
lboisoal or otherwise, would refuse to contribute to it. In
that way, and in that way only, was it possible to most the
difficulties of so importaat a question. It was utterly im-
possible that the present system should continuo to exist.
Mr. FAGAN said he knew from experience that a variety
of opinions were entertained on thissubiect. He had before
stated that at a meeting of nine members of parliament held
in Dublin five distinct opinions were expressed with regard
to it. He now reiterated that statement, and he would run
over their 'event opinions. (Laughter.) The hon. mem
bee for Waterford was in favour of a town-land rating ; he
(Kr. Fagan)) was against it. He (Kr. Fagan) was in favour
of the modification of the Labour-rate Act Boggs/Se d by the
hon. member for Stroud (Mr. P. &rope), his hon. friend the
member for Meath (Mr. H. Grattan), and the chairman of
this meeting, was opposed to any poor law at all (Guest
laughter.) His hon. friend the member for Ti.perary was
is favour of a general union rate for the aged and infirm, and
a local rate for the able-bodied. Thus there ware five dis-
tinct opinions.
An HON. M 1311111: Only four.
Mr. FAGAN proceeded to say that he thought *omens-
bars who were opposed to the existence of any law at all
were influenced by the extreme oppressiveness of the rates
arising from the abnormal condition of the country. Bat
for the famine of three years ago, which had abstracted
nearly forty millions of capital, the poor rate would not he be-
newel have averaged more than 6d in the pound. In fact,
la the year 1646, previous to the commencement of the
famine, the average rate did not exceed that amount; at
present it wee from 2s. 6d. to 21. 9d. He did not think it
fair as respected the poor law, which was decidedle beneficial
is its general operation, to protest against its cntinuance on
the ground of the distress in which it involved landowners,
when that distress was clearly owing to the visitation of pro-
vidence in the failure of the potato crop. (Hear, hear.) He
i.ereed with the hen. member for Itosoommon that the pro-
vine of Connaught was in a different position from the other
provinces of Ireland, and that the efforts of the house should
be mere particularly directed to the relief of proprietors in
that portion of Ireland.
Minor BLACKALL expressed his satisfaction at the course
pursued by the government, and he trusted that one result
of te.e inquiries of the committee would be to show that
Irish members in a-king fe r an investigation had not been
actuated, as they had been accused of being, by a wish to get
rid of the poor law altogeth, r.
Mr. BRIGHT said, although he had no fault to find with
the appointment of the committee, but, on the contrary, was
of opinion that, considering the feeling which prevailed in
Ireland, it would be wholly unjustifiable to refuse inquiry,
yet he was anxious to state his belief that Irish
members deceived themselves when they fancied
that the evils front which they suffered resulted from the
working of the poor law. The great complaint made
by Irish members was that an excessive amount of pauper-
ism existed in certain parte of Ireland. The Enelish poor
law was at present comparatively lime complained of ; bat
if pauperism existed in any English county to as great an
extent as it did in some ' pans of Ire:an I, the English law
would be complained oi'just as loudly as was the Irish. An
bon. member (Mr. F. French) had declared that Irish
people having property were not indisposed to surport the
poverty of their country. He was exceedingly glad to
hear that statement, but he believed that the la-
bours of the committee would lend to the conclusion
rthat no shifting of the burden of poor rates in Ireland from
me district to @Pother, and no readjustment of the poor law
MA however expensive it might be at present, would save
Ireland from absolute ruin, from a state of things in which
one half of the population would eat up the other, which
was. in fast, nearly the existing conditiou of many parts of
the country. The hon. member for Roscommon (Mr. F.
I French) s dd he did not see why mortgagees and annuitants
should not bear a portion of the burden. Was not the hen.
members's are that if any one borrowed money of a capitalist in
this °poetry, ha must, as a matter of course, pay the rare of in-
wrest bargained for, and that if he required a mortgagee to
pay a portion of hie rates. the only result would be, either
that he would be obliged at the same time to offer a larger
rate of interest, or else that he would be unable to obtain the
loan i (Hear.) There was, in fact, no more hopeless delu-
sion than that of supposing, as many hon. members did, that
they might by such moans as them get rid of the pressure of
he poverty by which they were surrounded. (Hear, hear.)
He di I not know whether or not the committee would be
allowed to go into other questions besides that of the poor
law itself ; but the attention which he hat paid to the sub-
ject—though not an Irish memoer, and though he had
not lived in Ireland, the question was one which had
not been neglected by him—had led him to the
conclusion that, unless the resources of Irish land were de-
vel iped, the people, haying no power of supporting them-
selves by their own industry,
.Irish landlords would remain
fora time in their present newton, and would, in the end,
infallibly be eaten up. (Hear, hear.) There was no cm
here who could relieve them ; there was not wealth or in-
dustry enough in Great Britain to save them. (Hear, hear.)
He had no doubt whatever that there were many districts of
Ireland—that there were, in fact, many counties—which, at
that moment, were in such a position through incumbrances,
mortgages, and settlements of various kinds, that it
was quite impossible for the land, in the present
state of things, to support the population. A bill was
=last session, for the passing of which the government
great deal of credit ; and hon. gentlemen would rood-
lest that there was great difficulty in carrying it at all.
When the bill same down from the other house, it was
bavery mmb by the Solicitor-Gene ral, and was in'
maidenbly liamoved. But when it reached Its %art
Mara, a dense was added to it, by the consent of the
gemeemest, having reference to the serving of notices,
whist prevented mass im-twentiethe of any good that it
Might sawlike Mee produced. He had understood that
that risme wee Meseta for the purpose of ensuring the we-
bs of the hill in the other house of parliament. He did not
resitively affirm that such was the ease, bat he had heard the
Mallnment on pretty good authority. He now asked the go
mennsent if they were aware of any eonin which the MS-
me, having been put in force, had done one particle of good
in the direction la which it was intended to operate. (Hear,
hear.) They could not, he thought, point out a single in-
stance. He had heard of me inseam, in which there having
been an attempt to t the bill in forte, it was found impos-
sible to do so. Another coma of attempt he had been informed
of, in which considerable mischief had arisen ; and he be-
lieved that no one had derived the slightest benefit
from the rameare except the Irish lawyers. (Laugh-
ter.) Unless the hones could grapple with the
hula question, no Landlord and Tenant Bill, no Poor Law
11111, and no shifting of taxation from one district to another,
end no taxing of mortgagees or proprietors of moveable pro.
puty could produce any beneficial effect. The people must
be set to work by some mesas or other, or else the pauperism
of Ireland would eat up its property. (Cheers )
Mr. STAFFORD said it was not often that he had the
satisfaction of declaring:that the hon.'munber:tor Manchester
(Mr. Bright) had made a speech in every word of which he
entirely concurred. (Laughter.) The hon. member had
stated a great deal better than he (Mr. Stafford) could that
unless parliament dealt with the Irish land question, and
unless the poor law were made a stimulus for the tip
velopment alike resourossef the country, the expenditure of
• a after =Mks woad afford no real and lasting relief.
The whole system of electoral divisions required re-
vision. Nothing meld be more arbitrary than the man-
ner in which the conmaissioners, sitting perhaps in their
carriages, on the nearest road, marked the country
out into offhand divisions wholly regardless of parks or pro-
perties, or parishes, or unions, or baronies, or even of coun-
ties. The tesdeney of the Boundary Commissioners' report,
ameating to rumour, was to make a considerable reduction
in the area of tandem for poor law purposes. It was matter
of serious complaint that government bad net laid on the table
before this some bill for the consideration of the committee new
proposed, at all events, that the right hon. gentleman had
not now speciasel what part it was of the existing law the go-
vernment designed to abide by. He trusted that before the
debate closed, some other member of the government would,
by a more distinct declarative, remove this impression.
CM DUNNE observed that the resolutions to which
the hon. gentleman had referred were not, in point of fact,
resolutions, but simply suggestions, emanating from various
parts of Ireland. He considered that the government
were adopting a wise course in appointing this commission.
He only wished it had been appointed last year when he
raised the question. Had this been done the country would
long sines have been satisfied that the present poor law of
Ireland did not work well. One evil of the present system wee
that it inflicted double oppreedon upon the very men who
most earnestly appled themselves to the improvement of
their estates. The hon. gentleman referred in particular to
the eases of Sir Charles Coots and Lord Farnham, who haw-
ing no paupers whatever upon their own properties, bat on I
the contrary giving constant employment to several hun-
dreds of men, were, by the urejuit distribution of the taxation
area, made to pry enormously, beyond an like their
fair proportion. The whole thing, in fees,- needed thorough
rubies.
Kr. BADLEIIt said he could not beget that the ex-
tremely onerous and important duties of esseetary for Ire-
land, conjointly with those of a poor law exam lmicmer and a
law officer of the WOW all devolved wpm the right hen.
baronet opposite, for wham he Mt ditgased, therefor% to
make very great allowanees. He leged. lowever, that thus
pertinent questions which bad been pot by lie Ma. Mood
the member for Northamptonshire would be distinctly is-
mend before the close of the debate; and in the Meantime
he must complain that the Irish secretary bad altogether ab-
stained from laying before the house thosentatured 'tonsures
the question which he should have thought be must hew
formed as the head of the Irish poor law mineeleales.
(Hear) He should have thought that the right lea.ger
dame& would have shown them something of the unnimilp
that prevailed amongst his colleagues• and that the e
of Mr. Twisleton would have bees laid befobeforethe=
He Wasted, sateever, that tome member of the mist

would explain to the house the principle spat which the
ppoooarr rates were at present collected la Ireland. As he ma-
ths matter, it was dame something in this way—
The guardians met and discovered that the sum 6,0001
was necessary to carry out the of kayo They.
consulted their clerk, and Mg what rate would be
necessary in order to realise that am. He would ,
Whops. le. fa the puma. That ante would be aeeo ly
struck, and the collectors would go forth to collect it. In
ems or eight weeks the 001 l seem would return, but instead of
having received 6,0001., they had probably not got in more
than t,OOOl. What was then to be dem / Another rate
must be struck, perhaps of 4d. in the posed. Again the
collectors go forth, and after another lingthened absence
they rotors with 1,6001., and this enced rasa hes bent eol,
lamed almost entirety host the very pumas who paid the
first rate ; whilst those who evaded the flat rate evaded the'
second abo. This was a direct encouregentent to a certain
set of miserable landlords, whom he need not farther par-
ticularise, to have Rpm th sir estates a elms of tenants who
were able to pay rack rents, but could not pay the poor-rates.
He trusted they should be informed, before the debate
closed, whether it woe the intention of the cabinet to insist
on a system by which they should have the ratepayers repre-
sented by elseted einuciens, end associated with some per-
mits who would represent the poor-law guardians. If
the government were to take into their immediate conside-
ration the system upon which Ireland had been cut into
unions, they would find that no alteration or amendment
that could take place would have the effect of relieving
the destitution or of giving a Wattles to industry
in Ireland.

Sir Q. GUY observid that the bon. gentleman had
adverted to a variety of topics, all of them of great import-
ance but with respect to the details 6f the ope-
adii,' of the poor laws, they were fit subjects
for a reference to a committee, and he thought
it would be mach more convenient fee the dispatch of the
business with which he was entrusted to abstain from fol-
lowing him to the consideration of those details. There
were a few parts, hogre•er, to which he would refer. First,
se to the collection of rates. The hon. member had
said that an estimate having been made of what was re-
quired for a gives parish, the collector who had gone to col-
lect the rates had returned to the guardians, stating that a
considerable portion had remained uncollected, not from
positive inability to pay them, but from an evasion of the
law, and that the law bad not been enforced.
Mr. BADLEIII.—From both causes: chiefly from their
destitution.

Biz G. GREY.—They could net frame a law for the col-
lection of rates where there was a pi sides inability to pay.
The hon. member would fled no indisposition on the part of
the Poor law Commissioners to enforce the poor law to the
utmost in the collection of rates. They forced the arrears
from defaulting landlords and proprietors before they celled
on the guardians to make any new rate. The commission
had repeatedly applied itsil7 to the examination of all those
details to which the hon. ergotism= had adverted. The first
report of the commis/ion had, within the last few
days, been transmitted to the government, and would soon
be laid on the table. He believed that many
hon. members who had been in communication with these
commissioners could teetify to the diligence and pin ience with
which they had discharged their duties. He would not state
from recollection the general tenon: of their report as it
would be in the hands of members in a very short time. He
would only say that the report had been referred to the
poor law commissioners, that they might report on the ex,e-
diency of carrying it out, as far as it could be adopted.
Gentlemen might be aware of the expe.as of building
union workhouses. There were defects in the unions
end electoral divisions, and as far as appeared
desirable they were anxious to correct them. In
Ulster they did not find that any alteration of the union
was generally desired. In other parts of Ireland, these
unions were formed on a different principle, and he believed
there was a tendency to a.similate them to the principle of
Ulster. As to electoral divisions, he could not (*L.:enrage
tee principle that the rime of taxatiou should be reduced to
the sin of the town lands. That sabject might be fairly
considered by the committee and the house when they were
in possession of :the report of the boundary commissioners,
and he would now express a hope tint the report and the
oviducts on which it was founded, would tend to abridge
the labour of the commit's*, and save them much trouble.
The hon. member seemed to expect that the government
should be prepared with explicit answers on all paints con-
nected with the subject. Why, they might at once produce
• bill to be attacked by all the gentlemen from Ireland, each
holding a different opio ion, and having different arrange-
ments to propose. He was not prepared with answers for
all the questions which had been asked, but this much he
would say, that government were going into committee
without any intention of altering the great principle on
which the poor law was founded, or the principle of relief
which had been added to it l•st year. (Hear, hear.) As to
their falling back on the original law, or taking
away the power of relieving the able bodied, he
felt it desirable to state, that government did
not mean to take away at power. Their object
was to facilitate the operation of the law, at the
same time keeping the main object in view which was, to
preserve Boot starvation thousands of the people of Ireland
—(hear, hear)—for he believed that had it not been
for the poor law thousands would have perished during the
past year. (Hear, hear.) He would not further detain the
bona • he thought he had been sufficiently explicit as to the
intentions of government, and should reserve himself as to
details until the committee had been appointed and was in
operation.
Mr. HERBERT regretted that
.ge+senment bed hot
come to the bun. wish . pictured WI, and the more so as
he thought the principle of the poor law a good
one, and that sone judicious alterations might make
it work efficiently over the greatest portion of Ireland.
He fisted that the committee would lead to no results.

Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN, who was almost intudible, was
understood to deprecate the delay of the government in tak-
ing the alteration of the poor law into consideration.
Mr. MONSELL said that the real difficulty which that
pen of Ireland, with which he was connected, had to
struggle with was, the flight of those tenants who possessed
capital, and the consequent danger of a great portion of the
land becoming waste. He did not object to the committee,
as ha thought it might perform many important ser-
vices, but at the same time, he trusted, that go-
venunent would not delay submitting the report
of the commission to the house fur consideration. If they
did they might depend upon it they would have to propose
a gnat neat year fir Munster, which would by that time be
in as bad a condition as Connaught. He (Mr. Man-
sell) assured the house that there was a vast emigra-
tion now going on from the south of Ireland, potion.
laxly from the port of Limerick, and that that emigration
consisted not of the cottiers, or of persons without capital,
but, on the contrary, that the capitalists were the persons
who wen going away, and that the pions for whom em-
*Taint must be were remaining. (Hear, hear.)
Was it not necessary then, to avert the penis which was
owing the evil ? He thought that her Majesty's
genrnment ought to be prepared in a very few
days to introduce some measure to accelerate the
division of the electoral districts, and to divert
the poor rates to the purposes of emigration, otherwise the
eapitalista would continue to go away, those of them who re-
mised would be left with encumbered estates, and a miser-
able ekes of unemployed paupers would have to be employed,
ast hem the exhausted reseurose of the country, but from the
bads of the Chancellor glebe Roheluer. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN observed that the hon. gentleman who
had just eat down labored under a mia'ake if he supposed
that the evils of whisk he aomplained existed only in the
aunty of Limerick, hr they were pascal in Inland. The
eapitalists ware 'clog away licm army part at the country.
said if the principle wars to be adepta of leaving the able-
bodied to be hd on charity, then the owners had
better lean the vestry at ones. The right bon. baronet
(Ilir G. Grey) seemed to be a sort of red repnblisan—(a
logh)—for he appeared desirous of carrying out in Inland
measures which had utterly failed in France.
Sir 0. GREY briefly explained. He was understood to
y that the government were not appointing the committee
with any view of retracing their steps.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said the reason the forams of Ire-
land were emigrating and carrying away their money, was
basies they had no security for the investment of capital in
lhe why. He wished to call the attention of the govern-
ment t• this point—that, as an accompaniment to any
amisohasat of the Irish poor-law, a aware must be intro.*
dual to give security to the farmer for the improvement of
the sell, which security be did not now possess. Industry
weal wily exist where it had a right to that which industry
erected ; and, in a country where the industrious man had no
rupee of receiving a return for his labour, there could be
no industry and no employment. A want of employment
was the cause of all the evils in Ireland, and employment
would be given if the necessary security were afforded to the
industrious. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. BT. GEORGE said a few words with reference to
the exemption of the small holders of land in Ireland.
Mr. P. SCBOPE expressed a hops that the committee
about to be appointed would be supplied by the govern-
ment with all the necessary statistical cress that would throw
light on the affairs of Ireland, for facts woe mush mars ins-
portant than mere opinions delivered in as ham. Re
hoped that the returns, of which notice bad beem dam hr
a future day would be submitted, tending le shew
movements which had taken place among the pIIP6IIIII of
Ireland during the last few years. The teetrohismil by
clearances throughout the country during metal past
should be stated otherwise the committee would scarcely
know the effect otter narrowing of the area. The committee
should know how many tenants were evicted hem Asir
holdings for the last few yes; they should also be EOM as-
voluted with facts relative to the condition of thopesgh,the
amount of emigration, and the number of Torah
through the country ; and as those several returns were
essential importance to enable a • ht judgment to be
formed, he hoped the right hon. for Intend
would furnish them.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said it was impossible to produce
all the returns to which allusion had been made, but
that every return he could give, calculated to throw light
upon the subject, he should have great pleasure in pro-
ducing. (Hear, hear.)
The motion for the appointment of the select amnia*,
was then put, and agreed to.
TROOPS IN IRELAND.
Mr. GRATTAN moved for " Returns of the mambo of
troops of the line or other forces employed in the heir ise-
800 in Ireland, as mentioned in her Majesty's ipso& !sus
the throne ; together with the list and nesse el the Idled
end wounded, and the number and descriphea et heels
engaged on both sides." Also, " Returns of the meat of
expenses and cost in sending troops from Great Mak to
Ireland, mil in moving the several regiments and other
armed foram in various pans of Ireland an ths occasion
of the said alleged insurrection."
Mr. F. MAULB said that, from the manner in wash tie
army in Ireland was disposed, the manner in white the
Olken bad commanded, and the forborsnce of tio
no collision whatever had taken place between Ow=

balf idettleire amidesta, awd lbalskr..--. be allel—T--""itillat f
ten of Med and weenie& wan Winne* le the fora
maw n.bows to Itekiad, Ike hoped the Imm*
he lima weld not pat the_wwassent d
seavehing the Admiral, and ariaa emblem,
tree..**. fie. use the semenWOlW 00OU 03.1111411
time, end, ff erneresful, would not convey any d
Interest he the RN*. He had no oh lotion to give a satin
at the numbs: of troops stationed in Ireland dar*gtM thish
months cd'ths anticipated eathreak. (Hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN said his object in moving for the noting
was to show that the word ' insurrection" in the Quin ,7
speech did not mean insurrection. ,
ARRESTS UNDER THE SUSPENSION OF
HABEAS CORPUS ACT,
Mr. GRATTAN then moved for a return of the lordyt s.
and names of persons united under the suspension et
the
Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, and fur what alleged miser
offences, thaw' profession or calling. the length of iragragg.
went, and if let out on bail or otherwise.
Sir G. GREY said there was no objection to greet thir
return. He could not give the r (Duces charged against
eaeL
individual, but the number and names of the pereonsarremed
under the sugeension of the act would be laid on the gage
to-morrow. (Hear, hear.)
THE SATTARA STATE.
Upon the motion of Mr. Hume, copies were order* of
the minutes and proceedings of the Court of Directors of the
East India Company respecting the confiscating of thus teed.
tory of the Sattare state ; with copies of all protests sgaigo
the East India Company's confiscating that territory, am
depriving the heirs of their rights under the treatise *urns
the East India Company and the late Rajah of gym
together with copies of the proceedings of the Board of Cue. trot sanctioning that confiscation.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes past 12 o'clock.