The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-06 00:00:00

The honourable member fix Mama amoned to think
that it had been intreisemil by bin noble friend
at the bead of the goverimeat wry suddenly
and without any prior intimation. Now, if the
hon. member had made himself acquainted with the pro-
ceedings in the committee, he would have known that his
noble Mend was there inked if he had any plan to preys*
for the relief of Irish distress, or any permanent alteration
that he was prepared to make. He then made the announce-
ment that he should be ready to lay the present proposition
before the house ; and so fax from it having cones suddenly
forward, his noble friend had stated his vim.' to the commit-
tee, and their minion was not asked upon the resolutions
until they bad been afforded sufficient time to consider their
import. (Hear.) But the main objections to the
proposal were of two dusts, and some were ex-
in the house, and others out of doors.
Cit a. member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Staf-
ford) had led the van in the house, but he had hardly re-
deemed his promise to point out its injustice, impeactica-
Witty, and impolicy, for although he bad occupied &conside-
rable portion of time in proving its Wanks, he had said
nothing on the other two subjects. (Laughter and applause.)
He maned to have lost himself upon the question of the
area of taxation. But he bad strongly contended that these
peeliamentary grants ought tomes., ; and here the hon. gen-
tlemen was perfectly censistent, for he had voted against the
femme grants. lie had voted against the 60,0001., upon the
ground that extrinsic aid of that nature um de-
ateastite of that self-reliance which he thought so
for the social elevation of the people of Ireland. He
1417:17.1Ilivy) agreed with him most fully, that the principle
of self-reliance could net be cultivated too highly ;d and the
gawrement had induced the inhabitants of the atresd
districts to exert themselves for their own support, and to use
ell the means within their reach for the relies of destitution,
before they felt themselves justified in applying to parlia-
ment for a grant of public money. But when the principle
of selcreliance was used as an argument at a time when the
house was endeavourieg to prevent starvation,
those who put it forwerd ought to remember that
self-relience was of slow growth in Ireland, and
that however much we might wish to cultivate that
principle we could not expect to reader it immediately
available. (Hear, hear.) Then the hon. gentlemen went
en to say that he was in favour of equal taxation in Ireland,
all over the mummy, for the purpose of relieving the distress;
bat how was that proposal consistent with the cultivation
of the principle of self-reliance ? If the money
were to be raised and paid into the imperial
Memory, and if it was then expended in the shape of grants
to the unions, the whole principle of self-reliance would be
involved and destroyed. The proposal, however, was one
that answered itself, for the hon. member had admitted the
policy of taxing one part of Ireland for the support of an-
other. He (Sir G. Grey) CMlCUrftd with him in believing
that an indefinite 'on of parliamentary assistance had
• most injurious effect on the habits of the people ;Utile
entertained a hope that as parliamentary grants would be no
longer the system pursued—(hear, hear),—tbese indefinite
expectations would die away and the principle of self-reli-
ance would be cultivated. (Hear, beer.) He now came to
the speech of the boo. member for the county of Limerick
(Mr. Mansell), with regard to whom he might say that he
always listened to his addresses with profit and instruction,
because his opinions were not only sincere but of an ex-
ceedingly practical nature. (Hear, hear.) He admitted
that the necessary funds ought to come from Ireland, but
he objected to • rate in aid, and inclined rather
to the opinion that en income-tax would be less objection-
able. The hon. gentleman who moved the amendment
would also substitute an income-tax for the rate in aid, but
he would apply that tax to local purposes,—emigration pro-
bably being one of those purposes. What was the differ-
ence in principle between that and the pr. sent proposal ? It
was said that the rate in aid was a new rate ; that the whole
of Ireland had not before been called upon to contribute in a
similar manner, and that in England and Scotland the applica-
tion of it was not so extensive as was now propesid. But it
seemed to be forgotten that an income-tax for local
purposes was in fact a rate in aid. (Hear, bear.
The question, then, to consider was, whether that tax would
be more acceptable to the Irish people generally than a rate
in aid ? (Loud expressions of dissent from the Irish mem-
bers, and ironical laughter and cheers from the English and
Scotch.) He was not prepared to argue that the income tax
should be imposed on Ireland, bet if hon. gentlemen could
show tho government that the Irish members were anxious to
have an income tax in Ireland rather than a rate in aid,
that would be a strong reason why their preference should
be consulted. (Renewed expressions of dissent from the
Irish members, and laughter and cheers from the English
and Scotch.) He confessed that he was not surprised
at these very manifest symptoms of dissent to the
proposition, because he believed, looking at the !arguer
made use of in and out of the house, that tithe government
had come down and proposed an income-tax, even for local
purport., the opposition to that measure would be infinitely
stronger than it was to the present. (Hear.) With regard
to emigration, the hon. gentleman must have meant that as
a mode of relief to the western unions, otherwise no benefit
would be conferred by it upon thaw unions ; and he was
willing to admit that emigration might perhaps be ono mode
of relief. At all events it was a subject that could be con-
sidered hereafter, provided it were made to appear that it
would be an effectual method of meeting the evil. (Hear.) He
must say that an income tax applied to local purposes was a
principle much more new than a rate in aid. To apply a
tax of that kind, for instates., to county purposes would be a
very novel principle, though he did not state this as a posi-
tive objection to the scheme. (Hear.) His noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) seemed to have been mistaken if it were
supposed that he Intended the rate in aid to apply specially
to Ulster. Was the opposition in Ulster to the rate, or to the
principle of any taxes being imposed on Ireland generally for
the purpose of relieving distress? (" To the principle "
laughter.) It appeared from the report of a meeting held in
the county of Tyrone, that the parties teemed to labour under
the impression that Ulster was now specially selected for
taxation, but that was • delusion ; for the rate would be a
general one for the whole of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) In
feet, it would be a national rate ; and the people who ob-
jected to it on that or any other ground ought to recollect
the grants and leans made to relieve Irish dis-
tress already by the imperial parliament. He
begged to call the attention of those hon. gentlemen who
complained that English farmers and capitalists did not bear
a fair share of the burdens for the support of the poor, to a
ninon from Dec. 1846 to Dec. 1847, of the number of Irish
paupers who received relief out of the poor-rates of some of
the metropolitan districts—the numbers being 159,000, and
the expense 76,0001. ; these districts not including the City
of London, nor the union of St. Luke's, for which
the return were not perfect el. (Hear, hear.) And
yet that was but a email portion of the relief
afforded by this country towards the relief of
Irish paupers. By a return he had received from Liverpool,
it appeared that during the last f oirteen weeks no less than
61,000 deck passengers were landed at that port from Ire-
land—the majority, he was happy to say, being for emigra-
tion, of which the people of Liverpool could sot complain,
as it circulated more money, but deducting them and some
others the balance of ahaolute paupers thrown upon the
rates was 15,000, or more than 1,000 a week. (Hear,
hear.) Largo amounts for Irish paupers were also pea
by Manchester and other larger towns, and in the general
report of the Poor-law Commissioners for 1818, they stated
that the poor-rates had exceeded the ordinary amount by
800,000/. ; and that the greater part of that was on account
of Irish pauperism. It could not, therefore, be said that
English fanners and others did not bear a fair share of the
burden of poor rates even for Irish poor. (Hear, hear.)
The representatives of the north of Ireland objected to &rata
in aid, not became they preferred an income tax, but be-
cause they objected to any tax in any shape for the purpose
of alleviating Irish distress. The hon. member for Limerick
(Mr. Monsell) objected to tho inequality of the valuation ;
but surely that was not a conclusive argument against
the rata ? If it were, it was equally so against
the poor law itself as against the county rate.
The objections to an income tax, as a mods of immediate
relief, were very great, on amount of the necessity which
would arise for cresting machinery for its collection; while,
in the collection of the rate in aid not a shilling of extra
expense would be incurred. He concurred in all that had
been stated as to this being a temporary expedient. The
government would certainly not have made this proposal to
the house if they had it not in contemplation to propose a
modification of the existing poor laws. His noble friend had
stated the other night the outline of the modifications which
they intended to propose, some of which would be most im-
portant and leenefidal in their operation. But did any one
suppose that they could discuss and adopt all those sugges-
tions, along with this resolution for a rate in aid, and
do it in sufficient time to make the rate in aid
available for the immediate purpose for which it
was required ? These modifications, however, would be
proposed, and he trusted, astented to by the house, at a
later period of the eassion. Hiked aluady stated that mea-
sures had been taken by the government with reference to
the area of taxation; but before any satisfactory conclusion
could be come to, a great many preliminary steps were re-
quired to be adopted. As to the suggestions thrown out by
the right hon. baronet (Sir R. Peel) he was certain no one
would dissent from his proposition that the government was
bound to look beyond the present moment—bound, not only
to provide the means of relief for the existing destitution,
but also to provide, as far as they were able, for the future,
and :to look forward to the adoption of permanent means
by which these portions of Ireland might be placed in
a condition to maintain themselves, without having
recourse to these continual calls for external assist-
ant*, and whereby the holders and occupiers of property
might be able to support their own poor. lie (Sir G. Grey)
had stated what he conceived to be the saute of the distress ;
end, in looking to the remedies which might- be applied,
though he was less sanguine, perhaps, than the right hon.
baronet in thinking that psrliament er the government could
apply any direct remedy, be most entirely concurred in the
opinion expressed by the right hon. baronet, that the remedy
was to be sought in the transfer of property from the hands
in which it new was to those of others—from landlords who
had inherited their property overwhelmed with burdens,
and with a surplus income not sufficient to ecable them pro-
perly to discharge their duties to those around them—to
men who were possessed of such an amount of capital as
would effectually enable them to discharge the duties of
their pennon, and to provide employment for the people
on their estate.. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet
had not exaggerated the difficultirs of this subject. He
had alluded to the act passed last session for facili-
tating the transfer of land ; and must say that
it was only by slow experience that a conviction was forced
upon gentlemen accustomed to the forms of law and equity,
of the necessity of dispensing with some of those forms
which in their notions derived from education and loug-
cherished habits were essential for the pr .faction of the
rights of property. (Hear, hear.) No doubt those gentle-
men thought it necessary to lay down these rules for the
protection of property, and they would be slow in receiving
the conviction that they were unnevssary ; it was no less
true that tt:e Court of Chancery was tot a court likely to
assist is the removal of the obstacles which prevented the