The Express.
London, England, 1849-03-07 00:00:00

THE NAVIGATION

lIBRIIIIB liisiesiiorWeeatthequietioa he had put
to the km. gentlemea the Under-oometary kr the Colonies
diejSmehelme, Namely, whesher an Wane,
peace
from
held Emailten. Weal Meade, paying her Na.
net to enemies a repeal of the Navigation Laws, and to
give probed= to Canada, had been received in this country,
and, if SO, whether there was any objection to lay it on the
table of the Mum ?
Mr. HAW= replied that he had no recollection of such
a doeunmel, but that should it be found anscept the papers
it would be predased es speedily as possible.
Mr. BERRIES observed that the noble lard at the head
of the government bad promised to make an intimation to
the homes relative to the resumption of the debate on the na-
vigation laws. He wlibeil to know whether the discussion
would be renewed on Filmy ?
Lord J. El7l/ILL replied in the affirmative : the navi-
gation laws would be takes on Friday in preference to any
other business bean the home. (Hear.)

POOR LAWS (1111LAND).—ADJODENED DEBATE.
Idr.MONSELL wished to ask a question of the noble lord.
He understood that the important evidence given by a Mr.
Griffith before the poor law committee on Thursday was to
have been laid ea the table on Friday. but it had not es yet
been pr vented. He wbhed to know when it would be sub-
mitted to the hones. end why it had not been delivered
before ?

Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the government were not
responsible for any delay which might hate taken place, the
matter being entirely oat of their hands.
The hones then resolved itself into committee on Poor-
laws (Ireland), Ur. Bantus. in the chair.
TYa Citazzawt having read the original resolutions and
eandment,

Kr. GlibOAN opened the adjourned debate. He said
lig the pit the noble Nord at the head of
the goverment was to the effect, that the northern
mg seam puts of Ireland, which were peaceful and in-
dustrious, abeedd contribute to the maintenance of those
western puts which were indolent and disaffected. He felt
that me we had bean made out for the impoeition
of the rate in aid, but he was strongly of opinion that the
time had arrived when the pea-laws in Ireland ought to be
▪ y aseimilated to those In this country. At present the
sysOsms adopted for the rating of property in England and
Iralead were exeeediegly unlike, and, so far as the latter
anantry was concerned. manifestly unjust; and until a change
for the better were effected it would be impossible to have
that contentment amongst the landlords and farmers of Ire-
land. It was said by the noble lord that the proposed tax
would be temporary. The same promise was made respect-
ing the income tax in this country, and it was evident to
him, whatever views other gentlemen might take of it, that
if it were ease lapses& se far from being temporary. it
would beams as peema s.t as the income tax seemed to be
in England. Thelsa member having read tome correspond-
ence and ether dersaments in proof of mismanagement of the
poor law funds's antein UIAOIIII, proceeded to observe that the
law had not had leir play, and that the authorities who
carried it into operation had not done their duty. Now
it was his deliberate opinion that if proper and competent
Alan bad been appointed, and more attention given to
the details of the measure, such wasteful ex.ravaganes as
be had described would not have taken place, and they
would not now be sailed on by the government to consent to
a most unjust tax. The right hon. member for Tamworth
contended that Ireland was bound to contribute to the present
distress became the sum of 1,200,000 L, which had been ad
veined towards erecting workhouses had only been partially
paid. If that non-payment arose from the neglect of the
authorities, it would be manifestly unjust to make other
unions pay for them, and if from inability they would be
equally unable to pay the sixpenny rate in aid.
Huck had been said in favour of a more limited area of test-
i ion • one effect of this would be to make the rates In rural
districts permanently higher than those in towns, owing to
the greater vale* of property in the letter. Still the principle
of a limited area of taxation was so consonant to justice that
a small amount of inconvenience ought not to weigh against
its adoption. The whole of the return went to show that the
present system of electoral division rating, so far from tending
to reduce the burden of pauperism, bad a directly opposite
effect, and would lead ultimately to the ruin and bank-
ruptcy of all parties ooncerned. In reference to
emigration, be thought a partial emigration might be
necessary from Nees districts in the west, but not
from any other part of the country, where, indeed, the po-
pulation would be found rather tco small than otherwise.
Ho contended that no ground whatever, beyond an
alleged necessity, had been shown for the imposition of this
rate in aid ; and he implored the house to pease before
levying such a tax on a reluctant people. It was most
imprudent, now that the proprietorial class in Ireland were
suffering so severely, to call on them to contribute to this rate
in aid.

Mr. D. CALLAGHAN said be readily acquitted the go-
vernment of the charge which some hon. members had
brought against them, of an intention to ruin the proprieto-
rial class. (Hear.) lie had listened with great attention
to the statement of the noble Premier, but it had failed to

convince him that the proposed rate in aid was the proper
method of alleviating the distress. He should have been
ready to consent to a general rate on all the propeTty
in the kingdom for that purpose. In imposing
this rate in aid, he thought the annuitants were a class
who might very properly have teen called on to contribute :
he hoped this paint would not escape the attention of the
committee now sitting. Attacks were constantly made,
both I. that house and by the pram, against the land-
lords of Ireland, but many false charges were brought
Zns:them. It was said they were unwilling to em-
e support the poor on their estates. This was not
so. Nearly all the landlords in the south, in his neigh-
bourhood, had granted leases for three lives of their
lands ; consequently it was not they, but the farmers,
who should be looked to to employ the labourers. (Hear.)
It wee not his duty to propose any substitute for the rats in
aid ; but it wee the bounden duty of the government to take
ate that the people should not mane.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL, though he did not altogether
approve the wording of the amendment of the hon. member for
Longford (Major Blackall), felt that he must support that
amendment. He had rather that the hon. member for Longford
had fixed on a lower Acura than 1501. a year for seserament,
and that he had proposed to put the tax on fixed incomes
rather than on trades and professions. With regard to the
general rating for the poor, Its felt quite sure that fixed pro-
perty—realproperty in land—was the only feasible source of
taxation. Re was opposed to a general rating on amount of
the roe, because be wee ewe the funds would not be pro-
perly adisioistered by local boards. The administration of
the messy by hod boards would be abased unless con-
trolled by a moos of total and fiscal responsibility. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord made a distinction between
property charged withinortgages and annuities. and property
eble to family ineumbrances. He confeesed he could see no
difference between them, although then was a great differ-
ence as to the power which parliament possessed over them.
Whether the one was to be made liable tp the tax sad the
ether to escape, was therefore more a question of power than
of right. He would vote for the amendment In reference to
the propositios of the government ; but, nmieg the
amendment to be lost, then came the question otthe gc4era-
meet by Itself. Wes he, because he could not get that
rof coattemtkeas in aid which was most just, to reject
es
which was Abed t Having considered the question
tree from pity Mee, be felt bound to take the alternative
and to suggest the peopeoftiou of the government, liable
though it waste onsidisrable emeeption. The members of
the north of Wend, Memaisteat in resisting the preposition,
were toe hoe by two years, because they made so objection
In 1847,whin sontsdintimas were raised from imperial sources
to tali limy, of souses. matribw ed. Hen. gentle-
men soli they would moist dde rate in aid, if the present
seer-law Were mosist‘ and the area of taxation settled.
Them meld hardly be asnelimed ebjtetions, bemuse, whe-
ther the peer-law wee amimlsd ex sot the damnation would
cop:Aatisingsn:siile d sees taxation would cu
gentlemen wished r*
have the area of tundem dindeished, and said they would
support their own poor. Who were their own poor ? How
eouM any one say you an ens of my poor ? Heaven save
them, at least, from a pseyerty in poverty I The diminu-
tion of the area of tesatism, and the support of
ose's own poor were spoken of as If the things
were identisaL But they were perfectly different.
Hon. gentlemen said they weal* sayrrt them own poor,
' and at the same time theey tavehed the Eaglish system. Bat
' it was • part of the English grim that one man was sosse-
times Belled to pay for the salmon of the poor from his
' neighbour's property. (Hear, hear.) He admitted that the
' ana was more namable In England, and that the electoral
' divisions in Ireland were much too large. The only objection
to the diraiantion of their size was ono which he had not
heard yet, ameiy, bow they could combine fermentation
with the area. Moue member of the bard of guardians wee
to represent two or more rated districts, he would be placed
in a most unenviable position, and one of the annoyances
which he believed few would like to be subject to. Referring
' to Sir H. Peel's epee* of the previous , the hon. mem-
ber °outlawed. Great advantage would ved from the
infusion of fresh capital and blood into the country. He
I was not tamale to the value of a careful end intelligent
expenditure of public money in Ireland ; but he fait that
one pound spent by a capitalist for his own bees& would
be more valuable than two ponds of the public money, and
tenfold more valuable than the same amount spent in
elornammy std. Hira=rht the Tight hon. baronet
the thanks of for has bold suggestion, and
be hoped it would be taken up by the public mind of this
pantry, in the same spirit ill which he sincerely bellowed
wee proposed. (Hear, beer.) Ho did not think the right
boa. gentleman ever made • more useful suggestion, or one
that was =we likely to reran in benefit to the country: lio

thought that the reference made to religious ezelusion was
quite une at this time; but the observations' of the
hoe. member for Dublin proved that it was by no means un-
necessary, for it appeared there were parsers still walkiog oa
two legs end with eyes opal, who conceived that in the
nineteenth century it would be possible to introduce either
trizedeestak capital Into the country to be checked and
is mll its operations by the perpetuation of reli-
giose dietinetiens. (Hear, hear.) If the suggestion of the
right hoe. gentlemen were worked out by both sides of the
house It would be productive of great advan-
tage. He did not think that the suggestion of
theisilet ben. Waist was made with a view o party
trier es a bid for power, but trots the far higher ob
ject • doing a benefit to his fellow-countrymen and fellow-
subjects; and, if carried out by government in the same
spirit in which it was proposed, it would entitle him indeed
to be considered a real beeefacter to Ireland. (Hear.)

Capt. JONES said he would not detain the housethes, but
he had abundant documents to prove that proper means
had not been taken to collect the rate in the distressed parts
of Ireland. His objection to the proposition of the govern-
ment was that it was Insufficient. With regard to the
amendment he would my, if Ireland did not bear her fair
shore of taxatioo, let an income tax be Imposed, but he
would have it ppaalid into the imperial exchequer, and not
levied for any distinct purpose in Ireland.
Mr. F. FRENCH perfectly agreed with his hon. friend
(Capt. Jones) that this rate would be objectionable in
painsiple, insufficient in amount, and ruinous in its cense-
epssome, not to Ireland alone, but ultimately even to this
'sentry. (Hear, hear.) As a landlord of Connaught he
bad no hesitation in saying, that if that assembly would deal
with the people of the distressed districts of Ireland in the
same spirit and in the same manner that they had dealt with
the commerdal and agricultural interests of this country, he
would ask nothing more. The great want of Ireland was
want of employment. The province of Connaught was
adlisiently large, and, ware its resources developed, would
be sidligently wealthy to maintain its own papule-
dew ro The grant of ma and the rate in aid would
oily keep the people alive in the distressed districts
he nine or ten weak,. They were wasting their means, like
the old woman who when she wanted to cook her hen
learnt stick after stiediof her faggot, and then hand that tho; ,
bird was still raw. The want of capital in Ireland was not
attributable to the want of energy or of industry on the part
el the Irish people ; it was more attributable to the legis-
lative policy of that house. Furious to the revolution of
INS, the Irish exchequer was in • flourishing condition, the
meal income exceeding the annual expenditure by five or six I
landredthousandpouncia. Almosteverystatemianofemineece
had borne testimony to the injustice of the lure sub-
asqueni to that period. Hs did not know why the
lof Ireland should not be induced by the government to
mum forward and lend money on mortgage at 4 per cent. I
No asked for no donation to Ireland ; ate he required was a
teenemary advance, to enable the unions to recover from
their dMultTes. Let the noble lord be amused of this—to
maintain the present system would be the utter and final
ruin of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CONOLLY had some diffidence In addressing the
home ca this, his first oceasion—(hear, bear)—but the eir-
eumstaseas of the ease before them were so peculiar and so
Important that he felt he should not be doing his duty to his
constituents, or to bimsell sea landed proprietor, did he not
stand up and give the measure under consideration his most
strenuous and determined opposition. (Hear, hear.) He
regarded this rate in aid as wholly unfair, unjust, and impo-
litic ; as contrary to all sound lecrialatioi;, as calculated to
produce the most disastrous results ; as involving, in fact, a
revulsion of the whole ground-work of society, the ruin of the
=entry at large. At this rate in rid was to be levied on all
the unions of Ireland India' erbainately, let him ask in what
condition were those unions? Of the 131 unions constituting
the entire number, 20 were confessedly in a state of utter
bankruptcy, of sheer destitution ;10 others, if not absolutely
hopeless bankrupts like the first 20, were, at all events, in
to miserable a condition, that anything beyond paying their
wen debts was perfectly out of the question, the payment of
their ow* debts being, in point of fact, nearly as much out
of the question. Of the remaining hundred, how many
were flituishing enough to advance money for other people's
debts ? Why, of the 100, more than 40 were so burthened
with a heavy weight of debt on their own account,
that, on all the ordinary principles of justice and common
sense, it would be monstrous to my they should pay the
debts, of other unions until they had liquidated their own.
In how many unions, then, of Ireland, &appraise the rate in
aid fair at all, which it was not, would it be fair, or even
practicable, to levy this rate ? Not in 131, but only in 50 or
60—(hear, hear,)--ito that 60 or 60 unions were to be made
to pay the debts and charges of all the unions of Ireland.
(Hear, hear.) The simple statement, then, was that the
unions which had paid to: themselves, and were prepared
still to do so, were to be made liableabo for the debts of those
which, from extravagance or other cause, had not met their
liabilities, a principle most unjust in its immediate character,
and most pernicious in its tendency. (Hear, hear.) It was
not a rate in aid from all Ireland, it was a rate from Ulster
and Leinstar, and to a very limited extent from Munster, in
aid of the rest of Munster and of Connaught. (Hear, hear.)
It was a delusion, therefore, to call this a general rate in aid.
There was another delusion in the proposition. The noble
lord announced that it was to be a rate for two years, giving
his distinct opinion that in two years the destitution which
occasioned the rate would have disappeared, or have become,
at all events, so infinitely mitigated, as to remove the existing
pressure. Now, from the facts within his own immediate
oomusantio,he (Mr. Conolly) would unhesitatingly express his
conviction that unites some very decisive means were adopted
of another nature, this destitution would not be removed or
scarcely
modified in two years, and that, consequently, the
allegation for this rata in aid would be as effective then as
now. (Hear, hear.) To remove or even modify that des-
titution there wu no other mune than for the government
of the country to come forward with some large and cora-
prehentive measure to inset the manifold evil of the ease.
No other course under the canopy of h would have
the effect of relieving the misery which prevailed in the
more distressed districts of Ireland—(hear, hear)—and not
even tke better cultivation of the land, or the general
emigration inculcated by the noble lord, would, he be-
lieved, clear off the evil completely in so short a space
of time as two years. It was proposed that In certain
parts of Ireland the land should be transferred from the pre-
sent holders to other hands. At all events, this was an ope-
ration which would be encountered by a severe struggle on
the part of the present possessors, attached to the soil by
some of the dearest ties of humanity—a struggle which
would not be over for more than two years to come. He ob-
jected to the rate itself as unfair and unjust. Let him take
the ems of the county which he himself had the honour to
represent, and compare it, as to this point, with Clue.
Donegal (with the exception of one of its unions,
which was peculiarly situated) asked no rate in
aid; Clue • county situated In all respects more
favourably than Donegal, demanded a large rate in aid, which
Donegal was to be made to contribute to. Now, the valua-
tion of Clam was 301,3091., that of Donegal 276,8841. ; the
population of Clare was 286,394, that of Donegal 296,448,
the proportion in favour of Clare being thee—in population,
10,064, in valuation, 24,4521. On what principle, then, was
Donegal to be =de to suffer for the mismanagement pro-
daetionif the misery of Clue ? (Hear.) The rate, too, was
int tie, highly impolitic. Ireland at this moment was
ris g, very gradually indeed, but still rising, from the effects
of the unparalleled calamity with which she had been
affilettd. Was this the moment for the imperial
legislature to impose a tax upon the growing ener-
gies, the struggling industry of that country alone,
which would effectually cramp those energies and cheek that
industry ? (Hear, hear.) Moat peculiarly was it impolitic
in its tendencies with relation to the county which he repre-
sented, and to other districts similarly circumstanced. If
proof were wanting of the impracticability of carrying out
this levy, it wee presented in the executions which had been
necessitated In the collection of rates already demanded. On
what principle were the poor to be put to the sword in
Donegal, in order that the poor of Clare might have a rate
in aid ? (Hear, hear.) Something had been said as to the
political feeling which this proposition miiht arouse in the
north of Ireland; be bad himself strong doubts as to the
constitutionality of alluding to the possible effect upon poli-
tical feeling of any law under discussion, but, as to the mat-
ter of hot, he had no hesitation in expressing his opinion
that vary strong political belief would be aroused in the
north of Ireland by this proposition. (Hear, hear.) It was
ZEs:that the loyalty even of the north of Ireland would
rid were this injustice enforced, and he, for one, should
sot wonder if that loyalty did suffer, and materially eider,
did the measure proceed. (Hear, hear.) He did not be-
lieve that anything but the grossest injustice could affect the
loyalty of the north of Ireland, but he was not at all clear
that it would stand that test. (Hear, hear.) He himself
was not one of those who thought the worse of that loyalty
whidi stoutly and stiffly stood forward in opposition to what
It believed to be Fast and scandalous injustice. (Hear,
bear.) The more highly tempered the blade of the sword,
the keener its edge, the brighter its surface,
the lame sensitive was it to the slightest stain.
a .m. .white had a tendency to foster indolence sad
mart be looked at a wrong one; and
the Arlen:rarepssel, gemlike asas
it did after a calamity of
free duration had pressed upon the resources of the
of Ireland esuld not but produce the most calamitous
eillases. The time iimr adopting temporising expedients was
gene by. The home must grapple with the evils that pre-
sent t emselws, sad the government must brinigetier-
ward esemenhendve measures. Ireland must no
be seen Ita the attitude of a beggar seeking for the cheeky el
Reellard. for the resew which he had elated he looked apt
tie mew= bases the emosebtes as one which was contrary
to need mond ringsides of legislation. It would have the
▪ d sompting that portion of Ireland which was:fres
hem the taint of insolvent pauperism, and of introdacing
efseffier evils into the north. The measure was also
elemftieen to the charge that It was calculated to give rise to
wry esrions evils of an unquestionable nature. What he
had said reepesting the loyalty of the north would not, he
be deemed unworthy, by the Treasury bench, of
1111111riditados. If there was one section of Ireland
whisk diedeed protection and encouragement on the part
41e 'lead time than any other portion of that country, it
yea northern provinm. The inhabitants of that
province bad ever shown themselves anxious for British
connexion. They had adhered to England through good
and evil fortune, and amidst the fierce religious strifes that
had taken place Ulster had ever been foremost in display-
ing a determination to maintain the established church and
the great institutions of the country, so that the religion
of the country should remain unshaken. (The hon. mem-
ber concluded his speech amidst loud cheers by reading an
eared from a speech, of which neither the name of the
qualm, nor thapurport of his observations reached the gal-
Lord
C/.BTLEREAGH.expremed his regret at the course
taker, by Nix R. Peel feeling assured that when the right
hon. baronet tarew his weight into the ranks of the oppo-
site 1, ,sty, the fate of the landlords of Ireland was sealed.
Much hod been add during the debate of the loyalty of the
people of Ulster, and sure he was that they always would
ha .oyal, bat he was prepared to maintain that the feeling

..

1

of that ;novices with respect to this rate erson ee o thaw 7
tin, disappointment, and &epee
• s
Mr. M'CLILLAGEI said whatever other complaint
be made of the character of this debate, there was, eattesV
no want of variety in the alternation which had bees eee.'
posed In place cf the plan propounded by on yonniiii
His hon. friends, the members for the city of Lineriek sad ths.
°aunty of Cork, said II money were wanted to feed she mei
that it should be taken from the property of the Iridionideit:
The hon. gentleman the member . fir Middlesex, sad It .
would be better to sweep away all local control aag
to resort al•ogether to a national rate. The hon. ,
akam
for Londonderry and for tho county of Tipperary, edit
with a significance which was not to be mistaken. why nig
not Connaught support her own poor as well as the rem d
Ireland. which meant, if it werecapable of explanation, fled
Connaught, being found involved, might be left with pro.
pries y to her own resources. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
-
her for Northampton and others on the same side of the
house, had asked why the area of taxation should not be Ica
used, in order that as the proprietors of land in Ireland had
grossly failed in their duty, every proprietor should be lento
take are of his own poor. But perhaps the most extracts
dinary proposition of all was that entertained by the hoe. ad
learned member for the University of Dublin, that is coed
to be relieved from • burden of 380,0001., the house "toed
equalise taxation, which would involve a burden of I,IOOXOI,
The noble lord also, in reproachful terms, declared that the
Industry of Ulster should net be called upon to pm.
port the idleness of Connaught. Now he (4.
WCullagh) did not belong to Connaught; but
must say, from personal observation of that part
of the country which had been so sadly visited of Ina;
that it was uncharitable, at least that it was untnely, to re.
preach them with an idleness which he believed was per.
fectly involuntary. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member fee
Northamptonshire, abandoning the townland notion, sew
for a system of estate rating. Now, if anything like a aye.
teen of estate rating were adopted, they must either give o
settlement equivalent to the destitution, or they must not
give a settlement. Without a settlement, this peeped**
meant asystem of clearance' and eviction, and it meant alas
the crushing of the towns, on which after all they ared
depend for prestress, civilisation, commerce, and intelligeoek
(Hear.) But, if they adopted estate rating with a settle
smut, then what would they get ? Why they would have a
system of serfage in Ireland unparalleled in any nation of
the earth, except Russia. (Hear, hear.) They asked pm.
mission to take care of their own poor; but De called spot
them to consider, as men of whom history must speak here-
after, whether it was not a perilous thing for tits
landlords of Ireland to go down to parliament, and to
say, " Lot us take care of our own poor." wen
the famine occurred in what position were the poor os
Ireland when left to the care of the landlords? (Hem,
hear.) He asserted that the landlords never did their duty
to the people of the west—therefore the people were idle
—therefore the landlords were embarrassed, and, therefore,
they must abide now the fearful result, as far as it could be
brought to bear upon them. (Hear, hear.) Everyteimeo
had heard of late from Ireland confirmed Dim la they.
pension that the government were wrong to tempt new pre
primers or new occupiers in the west by promising to forgive
pest defalcations in the rates. By adopting such a step they
inflicted • positive injustice upon those who had paid %)
their rates ; and he contended 'that, before another 6d. were
levied upon those who had paid former demands, Cowmen
should be compelled to make good all defalcation, ma
though recourse should be had to the sale of the fee simpler/
the land. (Cheers.) He would illustrate his reason for is.
lasting upon this by one example. He was pasting, are
long ago, by the estate of a gentleman of large pa.
petty in one of the most distressed LIAM!, and be
observed numerous fields which bad evidently before be,.
under tillage, covered with • green sward. He asked the
keeper of the lands how it was that those fields were main
He replied that the people had been turned off. " Has sap
body got them now?" was the next question. " No," wer
the answer, " they are running into gran ; the ntss went
back, and the people were turned off." Now those Lade
were obviously in process of gradual recovery from the
miserable tillage they had been under ; and though lulled
" waste," were evidently becoming more valuable every day,
Upon the other aide of the road was a dark bog, on whisk
nothing but heath had ever grown ; upon that bog mi.
were building twenty-four wretched huts, with their if
ground marked out behind each ; and be found that thee
were the dispossessed tenantry, who had been unable to my
the poor's rates, and who were now forced into the stets
of squatting there, while the lands which they for.
needy occupied were recovering their verdure. (Chem.)
Now he asked, were those the lands upon which the rain
were to be forgiven? (Hear, hear.) lion:gentlemen oppe
site, who professed themselves the particular friends of the
farmer, assured the house that it was not upon their own se
counts, but for the sake of the friesecoated men, that they
opposed this measure. He felt the force of that woman
strongly, and if the amendment of the hon. and. plisse
member for Longford (Major Blacked') merely mud the
question between placing an income tax upon those who
were able to pay it and imposing a rate in aid upon the
frieze-coated tenantry, he should vote for the amendment.
But be did not conceive that that was the case ; and it they
were anxious to relieve the tenant the ready way of defog se
would be to give credit for the sixpenny rate in the rent.
(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the priociple of an
Janine tax was much fairer in the abstract, and, in the
present condition of Ireland, would have hew much
less heavily felt in practice than the rate in sid ; and if
the amount which the hon. gentlemen sought to levy by is
income-tax, were only the same as was to be raised by the
rate in aid, he said that it would be very hard lithe
proprietary of Ireland could not supply that sum. Bat
when he Fought to extend the income-tax to penonal
property, to professional incomes, and to the commercial
classes, then he thought that the honourable gentle.
man overlooked the fact that the mercantile inter.
tests in Ireland bad suffered during the famine
as inertly as the mercantile interests in England suffered
during the panic. (" Hear, hear," and cries of " oh.") He
repealed it; and in proof of what he asserted, he
would read an extract showing the amount of the
circulation in Ireland during the last three year,. In England,
the circulation which fell with the panic, rose again when
the panic subsided ; but that had sot been the case in Ire.
lend. In the first hill year of 1846 the circulation in bank
of Ireland and all other notes, was 7,424,0001. It grseludly
fell in the course of the second half of that year to 6,800,0001.
In the second half of the following year, 1817, it lank to
6,300,000 e, and in the second half year of Is IS, it had
fallen so low as 4,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) He contended,
then, that the mercantile classes of Ireland were not in the
condition that louvred taxation could be imposed
upon them without considerable risk. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the question raised by the hon.
baronet the member for Tamworth, he felt very re-
natant to trouble the house with any comments ;
but he believed that the great and fundsmental
error of hon. gentlemen opposite, who asked for an
increased area of taxation, arose from the supposition that it
was possible by legislation to substitute the want of indivi-
dual enterprise, reting on the poor-law, for that which
could only bo don b by individual capital, skill, and labour.
He thought the right hon. gentleman who proposed the idea
of a plantation in Connaugkt similar to that which had taken
place in Ulster omitted one circumstance which con-
tributed greatly to the present state of things. When Ulster
was planted the government of England took eats
to send, not merely gentlemen of condition to take postemion
of the forfeited lands, but provided by a system of tenure, a
middle clue in the north of Ireland, to whose continued
existence in that country mush of its order was owing. If
the right hon. baronet, In additioa to the valusble sugges-
tion which he had thrown out, would adopt the principle
that arrears when due, instead of being forgiven, ehould be
made payable out of the fee simple of the land, he would
pass a real encumbered estates bill far more efficacious than
that which they had passed last year, because they already bad
purchasers of • portion of the town lands, and it wes
a class in the country. They did not want adventurers
from England who would buy land at a depreciated price.
He regretted that the secretary for the Home department
seemed to say that the Incumbered Estates Bill bad failed
to work in Ireland, from the conditions imposed on It by the
Court of Chancery. His belief was that it had failed to won
in Ireland because the bill was incapable of working. If
they :were going to have a change of owners in the wed
of Ireland, begin with the class who were alrew//
in the country, and who were ready to become pur-
chasers. They would have many competitors of this den
They would, have no longer an answer such as was give'
by a suffering farmer, whom he met in the county of Mayo
last autumn, who came to take a farm. He asked him bit
objection. His answer was that he had two objections : that
the rates were unlimited, and the charges were too low.
This was his meaning: he had been farming a long time;
he began in England at le. 6d. a day ; he made no of
it ; he never made money till he gave half-a-crown a Is
and he added that those persons who took Is. Gd. were ut-
terly incapable to keep life in them. As an Irishman, nuked
hon. gentlemen, before they came to this vote, w hether hires
not better to give up the pauper policy which they had been
obliged to pursue in the house and out of it, and to tell their
country that at last they insisted on making a struggle
together, one for another, and if It was not possible to go
through the struggle without minuet, at least they would
come to England with better grace for further contribution&
As regarded what had been done by the house, he woad
say that he voted for the grant of 60,0001., as he knew other
gentlemen did, with a sense of the deepest personal asd
political responsibility. He confessed that he felt it a nun
ungrateful linty to perform, but he was told there was no
other way of keeping thousands of his fellow-creatures
He should, however, think it the greatest blessing to_ his
country, and the gregreatestoption which could be enferno
on him as a man, never to be asked to vote for • similar
grant. He did not believe that gifts so given could be
substitute for want of self-reliance and energy in their own
people. This was unhappily a doctrine which would not go
deem in Ireland, but he hoped the time would come whsatt
would be the doctrine of Ireland. Let him not be mina-
derstood as undervaluing the debt of obligation which Ire-
land owed to this country but he thought that the
English bed been too ready to take the rash and
ill-conditioned expressions of • fey men, who fin
no business to represent the feish, in ignorance
of the sincere feelings of all the wealth, intelligence, end
property of Ireland. Why did they give this monerae thief
Twnohotuletyhdhadetowabeggaresoy
nktoecemthiinzthint the anion I:itosdn)beifue(lithreareyto'viatglmeid:lethnisweithnnigls„
appeal to than the loose talk which had been made use of II
the name of the Irish. He had heard, throughout the de-
bate, threat' or menaces, or disavowals of threats and men'
aces, that looked like threats and menaces, of seprets
nationality. He would say to his countrymen who
thought that the repeal of the union was emenhel
to the welfare of Ireland, whether protestant/ orcatholin
that they had no right to hops for success in such demands,
unless they should first learn the duty of bearing one m-
other's burdens in time of need ; unless they would &hew tp,
England that they had something like self-dependence and
dependence on one another. There was no nation rf

girth holm sesso the
_notimality whis It ism Ihmaistli en
Re baud that the = itrzese=numt tee Lad be that whist', whilst it go wow
___suss, wes willing to roma all ia • mil* el equal
Ei sat by amiselatiag beams, bat by teal's; the t
isek at this Ouse es a indeabted sun of appeal
caferiag sad diatom.
We A. Sltool[ll, la imphmatient, Meted that his observe.
img/ =siscreferred le Ile Ilferllolßl of those districts who
were ennui anew
'reeled 011.1100LN said that retrasesas aid hut some
111110, et Wier inset be afforded, and be might swam that
'at aid disoft tome from Reload, for there was a 'eased
I eat selonnal sdesistion to that elect. Then two question
shoe waft remain, should this aid ease hem part or the
why of ipftod ; and is what mode should this rate la aid
ft levied l he mead the bet quitiu. if they were to
iately ia this matter he might dhodes any
polies se tow hether this aid Auld be derived bem a part
I, ohs whole of Ireland. It would be meet desirable that
these enisse 1110814 be ordered liable fa the he simple for
tbaugment of the rates. He believed that wee prialigolly
mustatoeXo 1: the par law es it a pout steed. He
sad Hunan more lateremted is the ques-
t= Una ; that those prniame hordeelag is Cos-
aught were mon int/toted than those whim/ were farthest
moos& He believed Lanst,c to he we leaseested the
BMW, sod Muster to be eases kisosted than LaMar or
moor. He could no; agree with the aebis hod at
the bead et the trove-asst that the oft grated fee
oa the tenths of Ireland hr this par-
etsedieletosalis object of in-eedociag an equivalent taxa-
a... He was deeidedly of opinion that eitaivalent taantioa
was eat a mad priariple on whisk they would pressed.
Se had mid that a spoon of equivalut pasties was set
wood, eves if you cull peace it to be real, but he believed
he mall show that there so no reality 1a it. The right
be- fteCheaseller of the Hembenter had urged the rota.
fete ladle sole mud of its being temporary ; and the
Oils lead (Lind J. lieserU) want still farther, sad had
eleilenikel that not only was the asessare to be temporary in
ft spostion, but that the evil which it was devised tensest wee
=is its nature also. He (Lord Lincoln), however,
et admit that the ocessierx for which this remedy was
popoold was temporary. 012 the untrary, be believed they
weft sow about to slept a temporary expellent to
mast set only a perm meat her a gradually ineressing evil.
H. regretted that the nobly: lard had not been able to propound
some measure for remedying this permanent evil, Muer by
Unman from the excherteer, er • permaaeu este In aid.
This Me was put forward on tb• pair tittle of an modutrat ;
aor what was It as equivalent fort It was odd that it
s L was an i Unbent for the income pas, but they wen pro-
ses a enteral, bet se a spoi to l tar,
I:ltilas
ea a single daft of the people only, and sum
that which in this country was ezesspt hoes that very
tax which this was proposed as as equivalent for. Therefore
the priasiple of equivalent taxation altogether failed.
He a sada that the imp' tidal' of the rate In aid
t.ad to unsettle the Wads of many of the
mall 1= in Ireland, for 6d. in the 'mead would to
diem be a mos serious matter, and lase would be eater-
taised by them that the tax would be doubled is the course
of s very sheet time. The rata would, moreover, have the
effect of preventing the application of capital to
the cultivation of the soil, and also of increasing
ma unhealthy emigration, arida' from an apothem-
dm that something was conies upon them which would
Warp the circle of preen distress. The govern-
ment meld not be igacirant of the fast that the plan now
proposed had met with very ooseidereble °pushier, not
only from mom of Ulster anal Munro, bat eves hots the die-
tremeddloiriets —from these who could not be payers, but who
sea continue to be recipieaU The day before he
had presented a petitioa from the salon of Carrieltaiseeces
spinet the rate, and one of the vatic:led facts it contained
mold explain to the house how that salon was situated. The
umber of its inhaohants was 39,000, sad the number of its
um ail 37,000, and from this: circumstances • tolerably
wrest pens might be formed of what its actual state nut
be with rehouse to the mattes of Unties. (Hear, hear.)
The right has. gentleman the &notary for the HOMO Do-
Cblt bad dwelt at great length epos a question which
in.ila touched upon in the mum of a preceding debate
—sanely, the queston of caution. He (Lord Lincoln)
itt that upon teat suojeet the government would also
greatly hit, because 9 was icapertent to the dee application
of say rating plan to Ireland that there should be a uniform
valuation ef that mouthy. The only sound stoolard
to go spot would be a tesenteat valuation ; bet that
was complete oily is one county. They must, teen
hie, tall back on the faulty p Kerley valastioa, the in-
utility of whisk was as great, that in Belfast it wee 20e. ad.
Uses the' towiesad valeatio, arbours., in the township
el
Castleblutey it was de. 3d. below it. (Hear.) He
felt it desirable that Ireland 'boatel, in one shops or
ether, contribute the sum neeceory to relieve the distorters
is her ishabitants; mid, if the deLate stood now as it did at
the oessamiescasset of the night before, he should probably
love gives his vete fa favour of the faulty proposal
of the 110,1111/1 lit, because, undoubtedly, woo-
nested as he wen w.tk either Ireland or the
Webby, he should sot have ha called upon to move an
amesdment. But a proposal had been nude which be con-
glared would be far acre his and just than • rate in aid
end the hen. mown is Daseitik (Mr. M'Culloeh) had
matisfactolly shows that a tax raised upon the innate and
groperty of Ireland—(hoar hear)—would be a far soonOß.
seciens mowof effecleg tits object her Majesty's ministers
had is view; sad that 4 would be mach more jut In its
bearings, sad he 1118 We/Moven in he aeon upon the rest
if the popalation. (Hoar, bear.) Ho would support
the asierinest of the bm. member for Longford,
Meuse he osamidere.l It, al-bough defective, to be •
slop in the direedes of the only sound principle, the principle
el peal emelee ; and it that amendment Mould be carried
ha weld lien he pr. p Jed to vote for essisillehag the th-
eme tea ketoses the two countries, and making Inland pay
714• end me Si la the penal. (Hear, bear.)
Ced. DUNN urged that if the rate were agreed to It would
mouse the Irish people that they had nothing to hope from
the seesemeat, bet suet rely solely spas themselvee.
Hr. MUNTZ said be should vote for the asseadmeat,
=eist to be such more amount with Jetties than the
et the 'eversion.
Mr. Month supported the :ate, which was opposed by
Er. Bt. (Inoue. Alter whisk

Lord 1. RUSSELL rise and said, I em airy rhea agar
arable the Masa wish ass übnevations ; bat there were
some remarks mole by the noble lord, the member for Falkirk,
who rake immediattly to the Neat at lave, which I do
think mare rose explanrioa. Ist me my, Is the first
plat, that I think thin hour! has ashisi by mejori-
las w ewe points ; one ie, that some ail be given to
at. distrased season. in the west of Laid, mail the other,
this seek sad ought not to come from the impala' tarry,
bet bem setae tea or rats hi aid levied apes busload iterif.
The quotas then remains of whether thle WNW be done
la ass am ways. Tie one is by reklag he titration of
Inlaid with nip-et so those rapers to whisk the people
of that amatry are not sow exposed, sal appropriating
the ratan to the relief of daskulles ; the
other, the levying of • special Ms Ot, tat for
the purpose. Now, the noble hid says that I
panted the rate in aid as an equivalent to Mame
permanent tisane., but I beg to Rats that I did not so pro-
per it What I said vas that if the taxation of Ire Lad
was raised to the EngliA level the btuthen would be much
11.11VitIr than that or the rate which I proposed. The
sale lord went on to point out a defect in the govern-
ment proposal which he seemed to look upon as al•
meet heal, annelr, the Imperfection of the valuation.
New I had eare's:ly_ considered, before Mr. G Midis
had gives hie tvelence before the committee, •
Paper 4inest identical with that which has been quoted by
the motile teed, but that papa appears to ate to prove, sot
that the poor-law Titivation is imperfect, but that the town-
land abrades I. astray to correct principla. • Mr. Grif-
fiths states, that in &editing the townlend valitatios, he
made so reference to local rents or circularise's. This mode
appears to mu to he capricious and arbitrary, and
sot at an so satisfactory as the poor law valu-
ation. It is true that that valuation I. emet. in are
par of the eosstry than In others, but I think that both
la the north and west it answers very well ia
the fair letting yahoo.: For then rases[donor=
Mr. Griffiths' evidence affords any ground he set progashis
the rate. The tob!o kb! finds other halts; Ire breasts,
that the rate impales a sew tax upon as Wear already
homily burdened (Rear, hear.) No drift that is the
am, bat yet land Is a pro ty which, both be Megiaad sad
Ireleedhas always ban made subject to the euggeset of the
Par There is, however, the farther queries e 7 whether It
would be proper to obtain the sum required by a rate la eM,
is:: the imposition of a property or ina le inane-tax. lir sable
says that if we adopt Murata& we anal get the mosey
andi loam than by the impolitic@ ai the rate in aid ; but
Is song rinsteatbar that whin we trek id • property tan
hen the doh of April we do net tires • tali payable on
est are. It is only in MIAs ft weal be payable, as&
ressest leowiss. the eseteen et
Thee laessdl, le sot reethed ..a1 the
.leafs else dilleolty tibia
= ill the wasesenesuitif w debate,lbst it whirls
sew with the reselsizzgrager he die asilaaties ef as
tassels tan, that ea meat tensest Isle aids at
saes, sad therefore ft hi ray 4.111‘ le akT what
the isms tax would piadase slang dm fintwateers:
Rewests, if the nobie lord anti sassed is lie
ea the preposition et • g tege an lAA
teaantausey the hew shouldt presumes It it ssesdag sait proper
ewe hes this day forward, Inbred ink! be ashjast
Lear tar, I shall be ready to bow to the daellas
bat I ware Irish ratlenten that wheats the nes be di
may be a temporary tax for two years, the papery sad
Mame tax, if ease levied, will artsialy beans a perm.
seat burthes. (Hess hear.) At this hits hoar
I she set eater late ihsePeddlils 111.8"1"rpaal
ifte I heard with great r tenet kaa the right has.
heart Its amber for Tumor& If they bad same
ham stibla the sops of the prevent statics, I *ma settee Ursa
It holds; sad if I do not now sada them, k is set tar
ocesidaratice. I disk that when • gee-
bfs great talent eadisa=les. pawn a seem
b..t_whisis be Weis a great d bind any be tea-
INN prosperous, le waled to the wet
Wiwi' libation from this hews (lieu ham)
Ibis rack I will m wt eirea'nishma
tdbisall as the present daycare sr ilia is Om be
wW e• ellihment of lamal. tete& (liar, hear.)
• ••I.,.__grelse so me to dlfferc nt se to do amplisalks of
Pei* t sitter of extrace • I sake these
wer .wieur sway to Mow that I aim mat Insensible to the
..e dear/ camellia which the_ rilbl hen. Weed rem
=gm to make, avoiding thee Meet d(sesmMs,
6,41-71. the queetian 'poet tibias the hemp Is 'best to
I Isave tt.e cisaa.te sow is Ike lasiarof the bran
ftilithed la my *op Lin inset the groan& of nor
'm ens ve vary that proportion, the rate is ad tell, I
!me be erseLy available he the rupees of the dieser ;
5 lath, after hind tab 0,1-!• lord's views ere sucandel,
los lirshen from Ltlsed will, I have so deabl, feel great

midwifes at Mein Maimed Mk eidast. (Cams sad
issobisr.)

Tim eMandatee divided—Pet the siassideasat 164
4111114
The original ?gaieties was Men pat, on which
Kr. REYNOLDS was anlipaqvthat the rate fit aid
of 6d. la the
_pmed he ea all salaries of
government 'Mem at aet ems alear. on all is,
comes desired ras the pubis kola M akertgares, and as
all incomes dahal trim la Wm& He thought
it only jam sad reassaable the feed he the relief of the
destitute fa bawl ilaeld he aassasartall b, intending the
rate to these seeress of Mame. (Hack beer.) It was sly
right that Ireland should ham the bereft Oohs $ per seat
inmate tax paid late the minsolidated fund from Weems* de-
rived trompaparty la thatematry. When belied wasthrown
111 bey own ramaraw it was but Met Istive *a basalt
fig aid thus resestrws. (Hear, Mar.) The hen. member for
Lemmshire (M. W. Brown) amok a babas. of 200,000,0001.
rrlnked. It he (Kr. Reynolds) were se eater upon
ekulatlea el es national esseame between the two
manales he Wald mike tithe ether way. (Laughter.) But
.omitting that ibe !gang were cermet, and that they owed
this 100 000,0041, be doubted whether it would ever be
paid. (Lanittee ) He ought to have sold that he had no
doulr. at all oa the subject, salees they 'opposed to be made
a present of as electoral divisioa in Celifornia. (Laughter.)
The CHAIRMAN—WiII this amendment be put.' a sub-
stantive mules ?

Mr. RILYNOLDB—I intended it to be added to the ruo-
When. (No, ae.)

TM CHAIRMAN—Dote the boo. rollout moo it to
be oittiod to elm totolution ?

Mr. REYNOLD/I—Makeover is most itonsistent. (A
laugh.)
Lord I. RUSSELL thought It would be better to Mks the
original lialltdoll as It stood. (Hem, bear.) Afterwards
the hen. radon= might move to impose the tax on other
kinds of property.
Mr. ROCHE world suggest to his hew. Mend to pat his
I motion as a oralretantivir resohdlon. He wished to vote for
the proposition of the government ; he was aho disposed to
vote for the motion of ale hoe. friend, bat he did not know
how he could vote for them if added together. (Laughter.)
It might be well for hon, gentlemen who did not wish to
nuke any provision for the poor of Ireland to laugh ; but
Mn were two separate and distinct resolutions which ought
to be pat esparately, for if joined together they would only
produce confaskin. - (Hear, bear.)
Mr. SPOONER said that hoe. memben es that dde of
the house had objesta to the resolwries proposed by the
nibble lord, hamlet they conceived it oaf* to tea one kind
of property slosh He now called upon the hoe. member
for Dublin to show his Mowery by peneveriag in his pro-
posal to append wertain words to the original resolution.
Mr. STAFFORD mid that having been defeated on the
main question, without abandoning his opposition to the
bill, he thought it would be most respectful to the majority
not to persevere in opposing the proposition before the
honor.

Mr. REYNOLDS said he ceeld assure the has. member
for Warwickshire (Mr. Spacer) that there was no misessity
wt ateeer to mil wpm him to give a prime of his sincerity.
He could nat he guilty of anything so discomposed to that
home as the Keperig. especially at that late hoer, a notion
in which he was wit *won; and having had the benefit of
the Chairman's advise. memberated by that of the hen. gen-
tleman, he Amid porarrom la his propos!.
The cosumilen Sin Moidod.
For Mr. Reynolds' moles 6l
Against It
The home then divided on the main question.
For the original solution 206
Ageing it
The ressainlag resolatose were aaggreed to.
The hoes, then resumed, the ebelrman reported progress,
and leave was given to bring in the bill.
Tee Petty Simians Bill and the Distracting for Rates Bill
were read a third time, and the house adjourned at a quarter
befure 2.