The Express.
London, England, 1851-06-13 00:00:00

TIIII KAFFIR VOTE.

She CHANciaiiiilti;EiiiiliQUEß, in order
to prevent mistake, wished to state tkat he had given no-
tice before Whitsuntide that he would take the Kaffir vote
to-morrow night la the committee of supply.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS asked whether the Kaffir vote
would mine ea ant to-morrow

-The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
dhr /rat vote in committee of supply to-morrow would be '
that for the Kant war. (Hear, hear.)
M.MANUS, O'DOIIERTY, AND O'DONOIIUE.
Oa the order of the day being read for going into cow
emitter of supply,
Mr. C. ANSTBY moved, m an amendment, a resolution
condemnatory of the conduct of Sir William Dimino, lieu-
tenant governor of Van Diemen', Land, in the matter of
the revocation of the tickets of leave lately held by Messrs.
O'Dolierty, and O'Dosiehue, The hon. and
Monied sthatleman colorist into the circumstances under
which the tickets of leave had hum withdrawn, and which
as. already known to the public, and contended at tome
length that the conduct of Sir William Denison was ex-
tremely arbitrary and harsh towards these individual,.
Sir O. GREY" said he bad no °Mend informetion what-
ever on the subject, and under these circumstances he felt
Convinced the house would not consent to peas a vote of
reason. against Sir Wm. Denison, who would, he had no
doubt, satisfactorily explain the part he had taken in
these transactions, and the principles by which his conduct
was guided.
Mr. HUME hoped Mr. Ansley would withdraw his mo-
lion, and call for the prodection of the official documents in
Reference to the matter in question.
Colonel DUNNE also hoped the motion would be with-
drawn, though willing to admit that in the ease as it was
stand there did appear to be considerable harshness prac-
E.n..1 towards throe gentlemen.
Bir L. O'BRIEN complained of the dismissal of the go-
vernor of Maria Island by Sir Wm. Denims. owing to the
attempt made by his brother (Mr. W. S. O'Brien) to effect
au escape.
Mm ANSTEY would withdraw the motion, and on
another il,sy would move for the papers required, and which
Sir W. Denison ought to have already forwarded.
The motion was then negatived con.ent.
SUPPLY.—NAVY
The Speaker than left the Wan, and the house resolved
itself hoe seas ire of
Sir F MAIM° smo the bat vote, which was of
715,6171. half-pay sad retiemseat M sicers of the navy
and Royal Marines.
Mr. NUMB regretted tint he had Wes a little two late,
and was set able sow to Mai
_es Ws self= of whisk he
lad giresentlemert which weebilbsvewaii sespsemas maw
lion of the eatiskialloweeno to ails% lominied is this
rote. lie hod asposiod that %shoe psysikay this sup the
right hors. perdenna Weal law web a digenest as to
this point, mid his mum In the deny whisk the Ad-
miralty_ haill pm* leplel.
Sir F. 111111110 simmeniod that it wadi In windy
eonipstint he his bee. himsedalit b estesmandi a sense
ohne*. no the when of the Is were • wheelies
to Ms Mint et the mapplonantssy wets. lt was set
intended is aeon the manse et . (Hew, bear.) Thus
oaken wan were to be rewssel be. the waive list weld
still continue to melee the arse pay an the erne In is an
the other. le point of in..., they wand in Set be better
Of than amiss the plea ilannedy propemed. And with to toted', they wand sestins to Aso smindiag to Weis
seniority. nee wee vas der point wIMi should not be
lost sight of—that was that with regard to Misers placed on
the retired list, though there was of coarse no prospect
of their services Wig required doing peace, yet
power wee normal to the emersi is .employ them
In time of war with their own ersea6 He wished
to abstain from renweim thle woraidss with refe-
rence to individual esew-it wok' be bnidlesis to
do so. (Hear, hear.) Bat be Neil sown the beam that
there were as many °Seem of high wok WIND woad be te-
nioved from the active list by the taw Sist as
wouldremain. (War, hear.) He WOW an that
there were cum that would read like baseihip, there
were many questions to be inquired into %saw they mold
arrive at the-actual circumstance, with indleless asearaey
to enable them to pronounce a judgment. Is the some of
Vie last rear-admiral made, that Ulcer had hew ea the
active service list (or thirty-five years, during the Aide of
which he had not been in active employment. Audit .seated
to him (Sir F. Baring) that whatever the previous lonises
of that alter might have been se a subordinate, it weal
be a very doubtful pniemding to place him at °am in esw
owed of a Beet (Hear, hear.) There were Mass
sane so doubt in which the parties had mewed pin
of the remenAl time, but were they roe ant
they might not have served the whets limo
were it see that their own tolimilislise Or
other laths Wooed them to avoid active sorvies ? On
the other bead he was not disposed to Amy that there
were ems' where the wdas had been wlnan and
anxious to mow, but bed been usable to canals employ meat. (Chem.) Smithey sheet& remember that that was I
precisely the hardship be was um seeking to eon he the
future. (Hew.) At
~pneet, drew the great masher of
officers, it wail to *lithe captains their far
share of imbermmt east in I=lll pawn system
continued. se Pint Lied Min vibidows wimp
be his pawns and istestimw smell so asenes lane.
sesslest_wineywest to • Ilmt Oda elimethe sapt
NU= Wes& sink einem &NM be Awed to
leho hit shown etymon's% wie Meuse, like Ws aptains

isoliail of placing • maga alwefteititt, the MO,
rWrIfILLMINO ed.
mwm t.airkeu
siag the 1144
eighbe ea the Aloha leV;le he beam AM
Om sedge me= to
Mr. W. WI of Om right
Ikea. hestmet • reetkel one bat halitosis.,
meat had theetradme dale albwa-
sektw of it eoledesirrw. The Amp ethAlet. sew per
parlimemey out ha saw ameemmill, he._ wee
gullepteci to vele, m it imuldleullesegeodyrobeihmof
be thought Mhos they wood to it they
ilksall=se ass loserity. either by aa enter is meileil or
• omoluiliei et the hawse, that the ultimo would be eeetioil
MeMe LIVITAMS observed that seam! amid *Moen
W emmliaul to his of parte of the premed plea. The
AMA May Atheitelly wee eventual eemeety, aM to pro-
' mete m he se mile ganef as wee m emend elltiesty.
(Meer. boar.) Det he woo ishmeett this fhb mime wm
MOM with • previtioa width was tut aserimmy Mast is
mgmedis mosomy er elheimey. The tight her. haromet
hoe Mated that hied bum imemible he the Admlnity to
lied empliguesst kr the white of Om whe now hid the
ashes he the lite eepelMlL Wee it me, tbllt
as essellig NM them. "Dense we maid
net ampler pea Ira" ibmehre we wM not employ
yes betwafts"l (Meer.) Be treMsh dm, is *doe to
maw aimaileg end eMcient 'Navel Whom, tile part of the
mhos* would be vseemidered.

Cattail PICIIJILL Mum& that Amiens could not be
carried est is the stile' mime it hoe carried °Mat
ease.biles" ef with k wee mid dm retired list
wash earn. he dot doesetweeld be 15,1801. ; and
he mid thew, it he lad doe, low the aeon meld be raised
withoat shim we Avila to the hardens of the country.
There me deal, be many eves of individual hard-
ship, and lebepeh that semething weskit be done for the
gallant oaken whin the lien. gentlemen mratiened.
hr. 8. ligltilliitit mid it was with ppesartt plower' he
beard that tb right her. Wend lei mmdttmlta le ggnnpp
- with Mie emealitil hot he theught it the right .
=wend bestow mere time epee it bepre will ro-
sem% lopeemementa in thighs lobed peesd.int With
sespeet to the peril prowled et plate. the admirals
who lilt met foiled six years of the NO mod asking a
retied lit of dila, he did Nil see the eamilege of it. It
=ItM Wm a matter of doe, Wm dry took from
ellidladily of emnamol. At prat they were
eilmile for weaned. He deraght it a headship to them
is say they shield Ile lodger le Wgible.
F. T. BARING explained that what he said was that
be *eight it might be MADAM, bet with regard to the
admirals, and more especially with regard to subordinate
ellenes, that in ease of war the crown might bare the
pewee of replacing them on the active list with their own
eament.

Mr. 8. HERBERT mid that was in cue of war, big it
did eat give them it in time of peace. He was not one of
those who stood up for individuals as against the good
of the *orrice. But in this case they did not get •
man younger up. If they looked to the number of
officers who were entitled to their flag they would find that
in the first instance, so far from diminishing them, they de-
cidedly, increased them. There were now 110 active ow.. s,
end 40 inactive officers on the list. They were going to
buy up 10 by giving them pensions of 1501. • year. Then
they were to be promoted from the captains' list by
seniority, and each officer who was promoted would carry
to the inactive list more of his own standing. When the
list was tilled up to 100 of active officers, and of SO inac-
tive, there were, say five captains; the four seniors, who
had not served sic years, were not entitled to an active flag ;
the fifth, who had served, would go on the Admiralty list
and he would carry up the four with him, There were
man in that condition; out of the tint 100 the number
wee of, and out of the second 84, and therefore, instead of
having • decrease of the inactive list, they were likely to
have an increase. He thought that where no clear
and decided advantage was to be gained to the
public service the rights of individuals ought to be
respected, and, in this instance, he could not see
any advantage in separating them beyond its being
made clear on the face of the navy list those who could
not serve; and that was precisely what these officers com-
plained of. lie thought it was worthy of consideration
whether they could not allow tic exating officers to die off.
He did not understand whether at present the Admiralty
considered that officers retiring from the active list on to
the retired list made vacancies which enabled them to
promote ono in three to the admiral's list ?
Sir F. T. BARING—Yes, owe in three.
Mr. HERBERT said because in his proposal he proposed
to reduce the captains on the active list to 400, and to have
a retired list of 300. Ho hoped that some intimation would
be given sa to the numbers to which the retirement would
be extended—a point at which the retirement list should be
closed. The system of promotion in the navy, which was
considered as one in three, was in fact, and practically, one
in two. In the army, the promotion RIO one in three, vir-
tually ; but in the navy, if 27 captains died off, 18 promo-
tions would be produced, and that was one in two, rather
than one in three. The right honourable gentleman
concluded by expressing a hope that the suggestions he
had made would receive the consideration of the right
hon. gentlemen.
Sir G. TYLER thought that the placing on the inactive
list those officers who might not have served all their time,
was an act of injustice ; and, indeed, he could scarcely con-
ceive • greater injustice to the profession than that. But if
they wished to reduce the list of the captains, there were
ways of doing so without committing that injustice. It
might be dune by giving to the officers who were willing to
retire on a retiring half-pa at least the option of retiring.
He would urge upon the Lords of the Admiralty the pro-
priety of re- considering the proposition that was now laid
before the committee, for he was Burs that alter what had
fallen from several members, and the suggestions that had
been made, the Admiralty could so amend the plan as to
render it more palatable and more congenial to those officers
in the service who would be affected by it.
Sir F. BARING was not unaware that he should be met
from all quartens with sdasiseitee of the evil sad com-
pliments apse h biped_ beemtiens ; but at the mai time
with the utmost iMeelinedest to pre ass be that would
really abet • metals deft which monde ai teat. Ta-
rt =boas had hem made, and he bad been told to
the lee that, roma
ea
ho schema. esaidderatles, heshoulwhile
d
be able et se smasepl lbes
this hodle h torese said be had nag lewd heat any cm; of
these la immtlentee emy prepaid which they disekOt
would bare a wed fist_ The principle wee this
—that the list wield be !edema is omen-
messurate with the wants of the mmise,, sad >Be that
purpose those Miens would be marred been the of list who, sorterlieg to the cress of the sortie% or
from other eirmuneffistam were set able to he asnMeyed.
According to the plea. what was done with the com-
manders? Those who lnd not nerved for 20 years were
put on the list of the semis half-pay as they now wore, and
reserving to them all the MOO they
_wma have beam en-
titled to if they had remeined es taßley en the active
list, and le them elm the Wrher reek what they
mine to it. No enespisied of or eltleseed te this ;
but he could tell thus that the grievant meet maturlally
existed smog that siege of Misers who appkd hr orrice
and were net able te eblde It. No see sempiained of
putting them epee bell-pay. Het the asemesst the posi-
tion of the allesse Whs.., to the higher chows was
touched the thombliip &Sand to be pennants" and
every sort of diffselly mid abisotion wan thrown in the way.
Now, he would net essmse to deal with ono clam of officers
in one way and with anedier slam in another way. (Hear,
hear.) There wee the asse of Admiral Watts, who had
been 34 TTY • espial., mil daring those 94 ears Capk
Watts had new semed. e. Hear, hear, y " and some
laughter.) Did the has. emd gallant officer expect after a
captain bad paused • peeled of 34 years, during which he
had never been alleatomy Admiralty weld think of send-
ing him out in emosessil et • Stet (Hem)
Sir DE L. EVANS observed that the anew complained
that the right leek pandeme•pahlblied to the world that
he had never been emplimed by having been placed is the
yellow list.
Sir F. BARlNG—Whether it was published or not the
fact was perfectly well known—it was notorious. lie MS
every sympathy with Allem who sight service end meld
not obtain it. But he did net nib to rest lido =lbw mem
personal cases at all. (Her, leer.) Dot when yemmelaree
were quoted against him asdeem et hardship le we OW
polled to emement upon them; sod le was Nimes of
swingthee there had besa miry ewes of Mien who bed
most anzions to Nene, smil lied asnoteatly applied he
mirismenst. which they had been male to obtain. Thum
eke had teem the most hardly dealt with were not the
Crwho bpi semplained the hardest. He believed that
he weebl week well. In regard to the retirement 14
the aremesmeet was to keep it open within the Emil of
Ile men • milmtion took place ; and he could harm
the debt her. gentleman who had made a remark apse
premien without retirement, that there had been no pee-
Roden he that list. He did not intend that retirement
should count ha premelim anti the list came to the deed
number. Then wee no meal*? calamity to the navy them
to have an megrims Dee of Misers who bad not seen
service. (Hear.)
Mr. MACGREGOR said ho ceeddered the
to be of very great impselmese. What woe felled the
active list comprised as fewer them 140 effehil
besides vice and leer Oath* 1,210
231 mestere abegedme there were I,lllMeers
at the list, entries et mead Mhos net ee the 11M This
ought not to be WWI an maim PM It should betlianed
down, reserving the softie* primemise of comemehee and
lieutenants. By the plea prepesoll by the kasha?, the
officers would be pieced in a better position thee they now
enjoyed. There was no immediate economy; the plan
would merely operate to prevent the inamese of the moos
efficient fusee. desk ea mire lit se ems mem be Meshed
at by every lieueley Isefferiema. was the Praia eery
eland I They had ladmirals. 10 vise-adminsh, 20 not-
eilmirele—al is all : all the ethos nose pensismed eig arm
is Ile employed male. They peemehml ante • Ike of MO
mods" who ranked as sepleans et et dyne
these mew supplied hem MS eepleim of ftesse.ma•
she mat et OM beetemets. These wee winghem
600 milk me by seniority, but make), with seamen le
merit' sad spin they fell back apse an entels, tan mein
kept at the naval schools, on • model, semeffien V=
at Woolwich. In all timeworn 1,9 U earn it he
navy, includingm theta at the the maim immab.
The ima in Mho* Domoss
I tad inimam the helm et At only the to.
memberSw wasim
mush lasenso feelmniis. The enlyeemtry hat kept up
s large assimesw estabilehemat
Mr. CORRY mid he• sherd& peed* teem the active ad-
mirals list se deed Is 160: bet, tt the meamillem were
only to he made he the ratio propertied omen throe mew
rim he thee& the Bien the government would be the
best.
d Colonel S
Alan, • fliw weeds hem Re F. Baring, Mr. S. Herbert,
anIMINsp,