The Express.
London, England, 1851-05-31 00:00:00

could he beginning of the reformation, and when the sovereign of
quoted this country had induced parliament to meek a reconciliation
gentleman then quo
admit her jurisdiction and authority. In
contended. (The hue. and learnedl
gentlemen opposite with Rome andto
restored the authority of Rome, I & 2
the
preamble.)
lie
app
de
htaod not discussed the matter the very act which .
(Irish members) ; and., if .
he trusted ho had done so Philip and
with them to their eatisfaction,
catholic aucestors, iii reconciling this nation no Rome and
d he hoped, however pro- .
dared. He could not conceive how the contrary
gam
traria these debates might he, the warfare.
of law the reigns, still enacted that the privileges whichoobtained before
he amicable—whether they could deny i point
'Yes.")This was the "_oth yearof the reign
of Henry VIII , or at anytime since,
recital of the preamble? (Mr. Keogh:
ble that it or which should thereafter .
.. be obtained by the see of 'thine
the first question. They recited 1-nateredly—(bear, hear)—an
in the preamble
Majesty to assume certain not containing matter othe authority, di City, prejudicial t
would always repealing everything that had beeu done in protestant
ce royal or imperial of this realm, moist Ise
was illegal for subjects of her
titles under col,
declared this as to the acts done put in execution. Now he contended that this rescript did
surely, when they.
it followed, as a neces- , contain
and pre-eminence royal or imperial of this realm.
der a certain rescript,
un
consequence, that the rescript was void too. , dignity,
Had I That was section 46 ; but in section 53 it was declared
wry
which the whole matter turned. orpre
-eamii,:te:r—contrar y and prejudicial to the authority,
nothing contained in the act should he construed to
with territorial titles , that
'the Pope, archbishops, and bishops,.
privilege, or jurisdiction which be-
authority. And,
and jurisdiction withiu this realm, without
to the crown of
r, he wished to ' longed this e realm
provisions what their
Hire was the fact.ounr of
Fe-
the
crew"
? " the
Pellehad
not
this
Pet"well to that Henry VIII. These wer the
declared. It le:1,1 very say
catholic ancestors thought out unworthy of them;
have that expressly
had not previously been law, Roman
it not unworthy of their free spirit as English-
this claw' made legal what
that it simply they thought
but he (the Attorney•Oeneral) contended
t provisiuns to guard
denied, he would men to insert in that act of parlianten
dea d the existing law, and if this were
And the liberties and privileges of this country, and this aut a•
a eerfainh out the authority of i take away any liberty,
An
itt
th.,
.n,th
~a,
of
lie Wished no greater
'most m hati- city and pre-eminence of the crown.)
showed
at
here he must again take the liberty. to say, e
Pt t spirit to be shown at this present day t ran they .
ally, that he denied that any foreign prince or poten i e
that time. lie admitted it eras a matter to lie sifted by
t and confer territorial titles
but which they had sifted by argument during
hail the power to gran
argument,
within this realm, without
come to issue with them on that point. (Hear, hear.)
the consent andauthority of these debates—that this was a:matter which
at the pre- the course
concerned both the authority and pre-eminence of tho
moment a rescript from the Pope
appointing Crown, and the liberties and privileges' of the people of
archbishops'e and bishops in Ireland was in point oflaw
right this realm. Ile now put to them the alternative to which
legaland valid ? (Hear, hear.) He asked if the
right hon. gentleman hail fairly brought them. 'They
• •correct in *tying, that spiritual power the
ofntthecrown. Would any one say that
hon. gentleman were
Itoan
could only be conferred on the in
of Rome s Did any inan to be lawful and operative,. t but that when any
bulls and resscripts from the Pope .
legal in this papal rescript came into this eons' ry, is papal
rescri a
I h P
tell him that the Pope's bulls and rescripts were
t Sir however it might abuse the character of the pop e— ow-
country now ? for although it had been the intention 0
EliZ ibctli, ever it might contradict the itutliority of the crown—bow-
catholic clergy by were now to decide either that this rescript was not only
Robert Peel's government to repeal the act of
but they would have no riaht to find fault with it, hut they
attached to the measure had doubtless been
dune away,
itoman catholic authoritimi whether,
in the most must go and ask some .
the offence created by the statute had been
Cheers )
had according to their views, it was a matter spiritual. ( . .
express terms continued. (Hear, hear.) Whatever
the They must look through papal decrees to see how far the
that act hail not been repealed. The penalties which hail ever it might jar with all their feelings of independence,
bees the intention of the legislature, or the framers of
measure, 'the net of kditabeth was
• authority had declared this was a matter
of the Roman catholic
as far as related to the making the introduction
right hon. merely spiritual, the authority, the power, the jurisdiction
Pope's bulls into this country illegal. But the
of parliament vanished. (Cheer..)
gentleman had said that the bill effected a great change,.
still in force, definition of spirituality extended; and when once the
d touched to a most serious degree,
Now,
anlo I formed was, that the spirituality was nut exceeded in this
Roman catholic ecclesiastics
in Ireland. Nby the t a
of Geo. IV., the assumption of episcopal titles
void. It Mr. M. O'FERRALL expressed his conviction that
the functions of Sir J. GRAHAM explained that the opinion he had
with the names of existing sees wee declared to be
as
nothing
hail been further from the intention of his Holiness
was, therefore, quite clear that these assumptions, so far
sive to this country. He would admit that it was a ditli-
spiritual jurisdiction, were illegal and void—weret contrary,i
h froin culty which had puzzled the greatest lawyers in Europe to
to the express terms of the act of parliament.
If
.'which draw- the proper laninction between the spiritual and the
1 i
the law went, and all at pnaeut assumed for the purposes of than to offer any insult to her Niajeaty, or du anything °Wen-
this clause would follow all those civil inconveniences
l wouldilad lion of cathodic, and protestant, to allow uo power—whe-
,
What titer spiritual or temporal—whether Pope or emperor—to
these civil consequences actually followed
mar- interfere with the rights and liberties of the empire, he
riage
were dreaded by the right hon. baronet, they.. temporal ; but if a declaration setting forth dm deterni ina-
a equally follow from the existing statute, 10 Geo.
single ordination had been invalidated ? a% hat
wwould undertake to say that it would be signed by every
hail been annulled ? What offspring
in the ' •
been bastardised ? None whatever. (Hear, hear.)
• . then for such a course to be pursued, and
Sir J. (SHAHAN! read front a jinn • ted record the words not too late even .
one such a de-
was
that " there he felt sure that if any gentleman would pro!, ee
catholic empire. (Cheers.) Ile hoped that it was
of Sir J. Remaly to which he had referred, el tion it would be unanimously adopted in as short a
was nothing in ties law to prevent the Pope from parcelling
time as the ordinary forms of the house would admit,
the cuuutry into archbishoprics end bishoprics."
taint), ; for if it were pawed it would not depend upon the
fidence froui the government, in consequence uf the intro-
rpretetion of the statute hut upon the will of the mi. late His objection to the precut hill was its lancer-
nister, whether the Roman catholies should be molested.
pEel,t.eleteAtLhLilif,e.ltleotiemhthicelleede:edwedithaedrahlhinisecothne. (Cheers.)
• of (Cheers.)
Mr. HATCHELL contended that the assumption
A loud cry fora division wad now raised and strangers
territorial titles hy Raman catholic
duto,uNicttrio. nio.fljticilli:
pernicious and dangerous tendency.
prelates was illegal.
were ordered to withdraw, but
After a few words from Mr. Moues:,
Mr. HOBHOUSE rose, and amidst some impatience con-
Mr. WALPOLE argue& from historical and legal peen-
temporal jurisdiction of the crown. If the Romieh autho-
of nations and contrary to the law of the land, constituting
rities were really to trespass upou the sovereign power of
. tended that the papal policy W.Ol 110 interferructo with the
ceiedusen:p,,, tthaiotetehee
tlh'aeppaleereerwareitpi:
the Queen of these realm+, he trusted he should hue the first
e ehment on the rights of the nation. He believed that
man to resist these attempts; but, on the other hand, he
but for the repeal of the act 13th Elizabeth, and the clumsy
cwoafsthreepcurgownann,tatnod thean law'
-
he conceived to be improperly called invasion as if it were
heard of Papal aggressions.
such. (Cheers.) He ventured too predict that this question
would not be induced by public aisuour to treat that which
manner is which this was done, they never would have
Sir J. GRAHAM again addressed the committee, and
part of the country before misty years had elapsea ;and ho
of a declaration of war against 8,000,000 of our fellow- Part
be looked at in a very diffen•iit manner by a great
stated emphatically that lie regarded this bill as little short
countrymen. should like then to hear the speeches that would be de
Lord JOIIN RUSSELL said the right hon. gentleman those who
the had:endeavoured too . w the :mint...inc. vet the
when he commenced his first speech confessed that ac viewed weed by the hon. and learned member for Midhur,t, and
wets against Roman catholic religion. (Hear, hear.)
this question with alarm. Now he (Lord John Russell) He considered that the Pope hail a perfect right to pursue
at the language used by the right hon. baronet, say that a gentleman should uot regulate his conacience as
confirm fears and apprehensions with respect to the exercise
likewise confessed that he felt the greatest alarm the course he had done ; and to deny it was in reality to
fist
In the ma place that language tended to excite and
hear in the latter part of the nineteenth century. (Ilear,
of the Roman catholic religion which had been belhre ex- he pleased, a thing that he was certainly not prepared to
hear.) In fact, he thooight that the foreigners who had
gentleman, and which arguments he (Lord John Russell)
mooed by persons of far less authority than the right hon.
ace the Exhibition would be gat this hill. (Cheers.) lie 0,01 liltogether opposed to
thought had been successfully met. The authority and come over toreatly astonished
weight of the right hon. hart he thought would add to this*• extend it to Scotland, even it they were determined that it
apprehensions. Then there was another cause of alarm, the bill, hut at all events he thought they ought am to
which he derived from the speech of the right hon. gentle- should pass. (Cheers.)Mr. GRATTAN protested, with great energy, against
man. The right hon. gentleman said, quoting from Mr.
Burke, that persons belonging to a sect were very bad the legislation of buth
sides left ( very little) hardly
the measure, as renderin proer in Ireland of which
g p
judges of that which was requisite for the conscientious worth having. If they wished tio make reptalerathey could
exercise of the religion of a sect from whom they might hardly have had a better rscruiting eerjeaut than the noble
differ. Applying that dictum to the question bctore the lord. (Cheerio.)
house, the right hon. gentleman said very truly that here Mr. REYNOLDS quoted the old adage about doctors was a question upon which there was very great difference
of opinion among parties in that house, whether or not lawyers. 'I he Attorney-General and Solicitor-General bad
disagreeing. and said it hail been fully borne out by the
it was a question affecting the regality, whether it was a
question affecting the rights of the crown and the inde- hon. member for Ilidlimat had said just the contrary.
declared that the first clause exteuded to Ireland, but the
penitence of the nation, or on the other hand, whether it The right hon. baronet (Sir James Uraltam) hail made the
interfered with the exercise of the religion of the Roman matter
so perfe"tly clear as to have ended the religious con-
catholic subjects of the crown. That they did not wish to
interfere with the exercise of the Roman catholic religion, troversy, and lie thanked hinafor doing 110. Notwithstand-
ing this the lawyers on the opposite side stood up and at-
he believed the supporters of the bill unanimously said.
On the other lewd it was fair to admit that tempted to answer him, but they tailed to convince any
e
,d those who objected to the bill bad said they claimed one even of the humblest un emanding. Suppose th
only the full exercise of the Roman Catholic religion, they Catholic Archbishop of Dublin to die—as lie must at some
time—and that three names wire chosen by the priests,
I claimed the organization which was necessary for that
exercise, and that they did not claim any power or juris- and sent to Rome for the Pope to select one, would the
Pupal butler rescript amsointing one of thine three not be a
idiction of the Pope to overbear the authority of the wee- bull or rescript within the meaning of this net, and coasts-
, reign. Well, then, a difference arose in this question, quently illegal ? is
should repeat this question till it was
1 whether the rescript from the Pope did in any way inter- fere with the exercise of the sovereignty of this country, fully answered. What had the eatholies of Ireland ilono
to merit the insult offered them by this bill ? The noble lord
lor whether it was intended merely to promote the
spiritual welfare of the Roman catholics of this (Russell) hail stated that night that he would proceed with
this was, tit
Jew Bill as soon as the Papal Bill got through commit-
country. (Hear, hear.) Well, upon that question
tee. The inference front hat as 1,0011 /1.1 time eUthel
the right hon. gentlemen told him that those who did nut
belong to the Roman cathodic religion, fur that was the lies were enslaved, the Jews were to be emancipated.
(Hear.) If the noble lord eta in earnest in the latter oh-
strict interpretation of the dictum that he had quoted,
were Ice[, he ought to proceed with it first, fur this reason. Of
not judges of this question, end that it must be left to
the Roman cetholics themselves. And in what manner the 3.1 Roman catholic members in the house, 31 were in
would the 11011144 catholic* decide that uestion ? During
favour of emancipation of the Jews ; but if this bill of pains
the hot six months they had had prettyq strong evidence as and penalties were passed, the Roman catholic member,'
would not be likely to trouble the house much with their
to the mode in which they would decide it. They would
Presence during the remainder of the session. The noble
, d
declare that there had come a rewript from Rome, whirls lord declared, by his bill, that in a country with 7 millions
declared this was smatter of spiritual interest and spiritual
bound. of Roman catholic inhabitants, the bishops and arch-
no.) That Mconcern, and that by that rescript they were (Oh,
de- bishop.; of that booty should be deprived of their
el the impression he had derived from the religious liberty and prescriptive rights. The fint
bates on this question. But putting it in another way, he clause of the bill was in effect the „het° bill. was not quite satisfied with the declaration the right hon. It was painful to him to make the declaration, on his own
gentleman made. lie (Lord John Ruseell) said the behalf and that of those iii Ireland whose confidence lie had
n wu interfered with by the honour of enjoying, that the attempt of the noble lord
this restript. The right hon. gentleman said it was not
authority of the crow
to paw this bill, coupled with his letter to the Bishop of
for the protestant people to decide that question, but it was Durham and his subsequent speeches, hail sunk so deeply
for the Roman catholiesi theinaelves to decide it. Why if that into the minds of the Irish members and people that they
was the case they had nut the least power whatever; they were prepared to adopt any legitimate course that might bo
who belonged to the protestant part of this kingdom had afforded them to weaken the hands of the noble lord, and de-
prive him of the power of indicting mischief on their country.
not the least power of defending what they conceived to by
the temporal rights of the crown ; they were debar- ilc conjured the noble lord to adjourn the question for only
red altogether from defending those rights that their
th
Roman one week, to consider the advice that had flet it given him.
crown ; ;they had nothing to do but to say catholic ancestors thought inherent in the The session was still young. (A. laugh.) lit would advise
must wait for a Roman catholic interpretation. He did not a genuine specimen of Whig legislation in 1841, enacted for
we him to take his bill to the Crystal Palace, and exhibit it u
feel confident that the Roman catholic interpretation might the purpose of coercing her Majesty's loyal Roman catholic
not be according to some dictum from Rom
of he was not subjects,
funnity with the unchanging and unchangeable (" Divide, divide.")
sure that that dictum from Rome might not he in con-
Polk). of Scotland laid down on this question, seeing that they
of the Pope. Well, was not that cause for alarm ? Mr. OSWALD thought that they should have the law
had had the law of England and of Ireland explained by
Could they say they were to give up at once the law officers of the respective couutries.
Mvad wheer e
and Mr ever all powers of judging for themselves whether The LOltD-ADVOCATE said that the law of Scotland
had no reference to this clause. There was an old statute
penitence of the nation was to beed, or
upheld, and th
that the ble-
t they had
the rights of the crown were
of 1567, called nn act " anent abolishing the Pope "—(a
; and, as the lanothing to do but to look to Roman catholic authority, and laugh)—but that had been repealed. Subsequent acts re-
Ithat when that authority had declared that the matter was peale d all the disenabling statutes law at
altogether spiritual, their hands were to be paralysed, present stood, there was no reason for excluding Scotland
l and that thin great realm of England must submit from the operation of the bill.
degrading they might be. (Cheers.)
to r those
for one, to submit to that decision. Ile thought that they
lie was net dislsesed place. On our return, we found
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took
radii
decrees and decisions, however humiliating and
in the House of Commons were fully able to decide for Mr. OSaVALD in vain attempting to obtain a hearing.
themselves this grave and important question. Ile thought At last the bon. member mused that the chairman report
were bound to hear what could be urged that this rescript
it was • question, no doubt, for argument, and that they progress.
member haul, on a former occasion, culled attention to the
divest themselves of their bounden duty, after they had
Lord J. RUSSELL opposed the motion. The hon.
shown that the clause had nothing to do with the law of
affected merely spiritual jurisdiction ; but they could not state of the law in Scotland. The Lord Advocate had
themselves that which was necessary to vindicate the rights
of the crown and the independence of the nation. Well, but he satisfied,
the law in that country. Surely the hon. member ought to
(Hear, hear.)
heard all that could be said on that subject to decide for Scotland, and, in addition, had explained the whole state of
what was the alternative ? The alternative itself, as his
anrigidli.tihf otah.oyfritenntdorfdoectodlarewdi,thwtuhatsuoffihctioehrtowlyasalsarmgfriitun4.
thlolye
mincel:etri.yeeCjaStr:ctAhlarelswryP(o7fal:Seott:nitloadinn:ol".:l'yllsofwhuo-radsadndlecttagltachatteolttoStothaetbeni
That was a most &thinning declaration. He (Lord J. Russell
wglrs.,,elelecereeeshoulhmd,netntelehatrhoeur:deppzhitibeiete tehfatthwe which he
haTdhfeenhAeTTrlyoeßZileEdY-thG,,Et Nisco.titia.,:d. 'hued ) He should persist in his demand, and throw upon the go•
declared war against a portion of the people of this country. what the law really was which was about to be declared.
tthheotugwhhtiewhohseanthienetegrhfterweleeewhithegtgheeeersiigehet,seoefd the crown, had :,idtedhethaietteteleicet clause
thought must steer as steadily as he could between these two pan- vernment the responsibility of n•foisiug an answer.
nTilai ne ihre°•:t. that in
the
question, but nictehwaid"tesi:cre tubeSC:itimlll'idi.e
, endeavour to do so without interfering with the exerene of universal feeling of that country was engaged, and, there-
the Roman catholic religion. He believed that that could fore he trusted d that friend would see the iznpro-
,be done; he believe(' that this bill did not exceed onside ' his
hon.
or the other in that respect. He knew that in a great part of h
else priety of persisting in his opposition.
lie hoped that his
on. friend would withdraw his amendment.
the United Kingdom it would not be thought sufficiently Mr. REYNOLDS objected to the eithdrawal of the
stringent; he knew that in another part of the United amend Ls He wished to know if this clause should
Kingdom—in Ireland—it was thought to go far beyond the in •men ' ' pa"
its present shape and a vacancy should occur in the ca-
legitimate exercise of the powers a legislation. His belief tholic see of Dublin, would the election of a successor to
was that it did not in on one side or the other ; but at all bound to
events, the present archbishop be illegal under this clause ?
as he had said, they were
exercise Mr. DISRAELI rose merely for the purpose of prevent-
their own judgment on that matter. Ile thought le
they ought not to be satisfied with learning f g the necessity of a dii Won if partible. The IliVillloll
any Roman catholic doctor or barrister what was their '
eons might be obviated if the Lord Advocate would give the re-
quire(' information
duty in this matter. But be could not conclude without Lord e RUSSELL *'
•
said that his hon and learned friend
referring to a declaration he had heard that day from the wo id have* I• ed but that •. 4 .
right hon. gentleman the late Governor of Malta (shunt house u cep am , . the general sense of the
administrative talents the noble lord tonic the opportunity of
seemed to be against it.
acknowledging), who said that he (Lord John Russell) had After an observation from Mr. \Vassar,
certainly lost his confidence by the • manner in which h had Mr. OSWALD again row, but found it impossible to ob-
c tam a hearing.
taken up this subject. Now it had always appeared to him •
that the line he had taken we, one which nught have been Ihe LORD ADVOCATE repeated his assertion that the
taken by • minister of the crown in days when this whole ace of 1567 bad been repealed, met that the law of Semiarid
had no bearing on the clause.
eol3lMaaltY was Roman catholic, lie believed that that Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to the hon. member for
which would not be submitted to at this day in Pru • um. a Dublin said that by the 10 Geo IV no Roman •th li
protestant country, or in Saxony, a protestant country with ' . . ea
o CI
a Roman catholic *overeign, would not have been sithmit- Archbishop of Dublin could be uppoisited.
ted to in former times by our Roman catholic ancestors, Mr. REYNOLDS was aware that the territorial title
(Hear, hear) In the course of this disc as' th had had
u ton ey could not be assumed, but wished to know whether the
occasion to allude to what was done in ancient times in . usual bull would be illegal.
this country before the Reformation was conceived Mr. OSWALD said that, having now got an answer to
or pro. pcoed. But there was • very remarkable act paned his question, he begged leave to withdraw his motion for
*Au the reporting progress; (Hear, hear.)