The Express.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS. WEDNESDAY EVENING. JULY 11, 1849.

The Earl of HAREOWBY,on presenting
the petition
from Newfoundland, said he should on a future day, call
attention to the subject.
IRISH POOR LAWS.
Lord MONTEAGLE asked when the annual report of the
Irish Poor Law Comen,sionen would be presented. This
report ought to be presented before the house discussed the
, subject of the Irish poor laws. The returns hitherto had
1 been very inaccurate.
The quaint was notanswered.
THE RIVER PLATE.
Lea COLCHESTER asked what bad bun the roguese
of
the atheilati be her Majesty's rummest and th
piemo ons
seat a Basses Apes relative to the pacification
ef the anotries hadering on the River Plate.
He was biros& that there war some prospect of a treaty
bobs radmied • ihe brie if Mr. Hood's intrados'.
He hoped Ws wee the say wit wee of the greatest impat-
iens to the eammerce olfilathrod that the navigation of the
doer Plats should be o
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the French go-
-1 enomeat sad ours had offered their mediation, and ire
1 thieved that we shield soon become joint parties to an
MoMiesmica, elfish wield be of great advantage to our
essemeree w that part of the world. He entertained a san-
mina hope that, by the joint action of both governments,
shat sleet would be attained. (Hear, hear.)
Lad HOWDEN was aware of his irregularity in sa-
tiric = lortaaEtbis occasion, but he must throw •
their . As some ansionhad been made
le him la thrwese and ae he was not In the house
when *1 snidest was last under discussion, although in
the roes of that debate his conduct was much =Ord-
vestal upon, he perhaps might be permitted to trespass on
their lordship' attention for a very short time. He had
ban area the subordinate task of mining into effect
the instructions of others ; it, therefore, was no pat of his
duty to defied these boarnetices. He, had endeavoured
Theirto
ray them labs szeration to the beet of his ability.
lendadge were probably aware that at the first blockade of
arm Aby the French, General Oribe was deposed
hams hem
reined to allow Argentine prim to be eon-
domed In the pets abases Apes. His weeteseor, Gene-
ral Mien. wee mot or rengekom. There was no legality
ia thesis blotkede, in OM mss,bloczada, is
Ilea, oar own essurook Mr. Hood
was ant eat with iniewethas fee effecting the peel-
Imam of the eitaseant Median( ea the river Plan
That geedbmeo was set a sioisat station to make heed
spirt the two anther plesdpieweday, who were opposed
to his views. In the spring of no her Majesty's minister
at the Janeiro wee trzstr.a to the River Plate to
eadesavoor to make a of does differences the um
godatiregreseeith froureblyeall daycare to the clauses
=meth the River Panora. Gooiest Ewes required
mere than had bees settled by the Beglisla and
Fara saionneats. Ho ielifbet ithis views with respect
to the Parma were adored, then the question as to the
Grew might remain to be settled by the governments in
Bangs. The chief object of the negotiations having failed,
the two pinipotentisnes went to the other side of the River
Plate to offer an armistice, until an answer could be received
from Flame. It wee stated to Gen. Oribe, that if he speed
so the armistice, the blockade would be raised ; bat the
blockade of Braes Ayres was not effectual it did not pre-
vent the fist-bottomed boats of the counter from trading, but
kept out the 'Amens. rigged vends frost Luidon and Liver-
pool, and the innumerable WOWS belonging to AMAMI. It
was arranged that these vessels should pay a sum to the
Custom-house at Moat* Vida, aid then they should be al-
lowed to proceed to Brace Ayres. Black mail was thus
levied on Esilish ships, for the support of a horde of
1 marauders. Only one man was disinterested, and he was
"lad to pay him a posing oomplimint—a man who had
throe °coupled a prominent position in Italy. He meant Oar-
IbeldL With regard to the Independent* of Monte
was an suer to suppose that its indepeadones
had been reergabed at the congress at Rio Janeiro. In
conclusion, he might perhaps be excused for observing,
that he bad received from her Majesty's government the
highest approbation of his fondue.
The Earl of BLARROWBY, who was all but inaudible is
the gallery, said be understood that the armistice which bad
been proposed, and to whisk the noble lord had referred,
was in effect that the town aldose" Video should be opened
to the whole of the country in:tag the esatiasesse of the
armistice, and thme terms were naturally attailed to by
(bibs, the receding general. After seam ether observations,
which were quite inaudible the noble earl eeld that the
noble lord (Rowden) had ;nen anogly of the indepen-
dence of Monte Video not bonen beta guaraisteed by him.
I He, however, begged to say that if there was • positive and
hredisg
tsenec,. the, honour of this omatry was pledged to
iM
The Had el ABERDEEN was happy to find that the
table theripie had termed himself with so much emit-
thine se to the probable termination of Ibis matter. He
however, the probability of snore depended
=ll4 en whether the queen' to be resolved
wee to be finally determined by England and
Farm If it was. he had little doubt but that
they weal& some to an agreement ; but if the qua-
' ties wee termer back to Buenos Ayres he bad no doubt
tbae the libels swotted= would fall to the ground. Tbe
I nob& ineeen aimportance to news, the security of the
bibillefillbell Si OS " Oriental State!'
Isaff 11101A1311ONT said he had in a former debate on
snidest due:NA the pumas who had raised the loan at
Man Tithe as mere jobbers. Since that time he had
esesibised that they were all households'', and that their
objet wee not so much to farther their pecuniary interests,
uto keep the bone Wean government ming; but NT-
tanly not out of love to that government. He believed that
what thine persons had done wee in so way disc:ratable to
them.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a first time, sad the Marquis of Law&
owns gave notice that he should move the second reading
on Friday next.
MARRIAGES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES FACILI-
T BILL.
On the motion of Lord EDDISDOILY, this bill was reed a
seared time.
Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter before 7
earth

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Tus3OAT, :tax 10.
Thu Eirissits took tho chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
SECOND READING.—RoyaI PoriHos (Brightsa)
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
PAILIAIII3ITART AND Mr.
RITORX—By
080 Mo B, from Finsbury, In fay. taFINANCIALr of that* obirote.
Tao Psorts's CNAITSII-131 Mr. C. LUSHINGTON,
(2) hem Weismiastar, is favour of dm pe-ple's charter.
PNOTTCTION OT WONSN Bitia—By Mr. C. LUSEING.
TON. from amain Wesleyan' ot Westminster in favour of
this bill.
Tin Rotas Emusuo—By Mr. G. THOMPSON,
from Finsbury, is favorer of the resopitica of ths Raman
repnblie.
Bursavrrer LAW CONSOLIDATION Bus.—By Mr.
BAI24ES, from London, is favour el the bill.

BRIGHTON PAVILION BILL.
The bill was read a seeped time, and ordered to be
refused to a select onsawittee.
CHOLERA INQUESTS.
Mr. Alderman HU bIPHERY said that be had been
smi by his oonstiturnrs to ask whether the Secretary
Ile W Inv Department bad isespd any directions to the
aumeor for Burp y to hold inquests in all oases supposed to
be deetbe frem cholera. Bach a coarse would entail much
espouse es Ow distrlet.
Ilk G. WM said he bad given no direction on the sub-
lest. He bed received sev•ral application. from districts
bath In Leaden and in the country, to know whether it eras
neon/are to all eases of death by cholera, inquests should
be held; 'the only answer be gave was. tha he had no power
to control the ditcretion
ES af the
AT CARDIFF.e cuoners in th matter.
ASSIZ
In reply to De. NICKOLL,
Bir 0. GREY said that he believed the assizes at Cardiff
bed been poetponed ineoneumnos of the messes of cholera
in that town.
THE IRISH CONVICTS.

In Imply re. Mr. Ammer,
sir 0. GREY saiA that two ernes of cholera had averred's
the ship in which "(sews. Watts sad Diberty hal b err
thusly embark, d, and .t-her errseements were wade for tiv,
eenveyenes of the wesalnien omens,. No further aim bad
tweurred en board tits ship in which Mews. lairds sad
Doherty were.
FRENCH DUTY ON COALS.
Loyd IL VANE sibs" the 8 crew, of 8 ate for Foreisra
Affair' whether hi• attention had been directs." to the high
duty lapsed hy France on coda itsperted int* that wintry
by sea, waspersd with that levied on soils isvetod on the

land frontier by the Meuse, and through the deportment of
1.19 *Sale ; studio in the event of hie attendee
been ilWeensd to that subjeet, he entertained say
haaatlat W Finish goy/newt woad consent to equalisei
Mount PAM/RUSTON said that the attention of the
Meerrement bed been long directed to this subjeistoled mu*
iseglegrenfleeee had takes place with the French mint
dm the porpses of effecting .)nearer approximation to the
I eigms el tile
the ot 1826, and he could enure the
odd* beril that the efforts of the government to effect this
"Wet weld not be relaxed.
JUVENILE CRIMINALS.
Mr. MILNES said it had been his intention to have
=&llit under tbe wenderatioa of the house at some
the treatment eadi oesdition of juvenile criminals in
skiseenerry, bat Ills I=tiction of videos returns which
Itail hew wed Ow it impossible for him cm this
WNW te do judge to so important a subject. He abedil,
ffisesdims ausly touch upon the general question. No
EasMali visit any of our prisons without being sensibly
with the wretched cordiiion of the juvenile ie-
Ome broach of the reformatory process which be
&Odd weeireend was the institutioa of a system of flogging
in the me sieges of aim*. The nest was the introduction
of ass a mode of treatment in the prisms as would deprive
them of Hair esetfort, and by mum et hard and centinuous
labrear, lea es oakum picking, to induce in juvenile offenders
WAIN of sadinkrus labour. He would also combine with
rate muse of punishment a system of educates and
d lednetka is the usefal arts whereby youthful aimi.
ash MOM titan the snaps of earning then living honestly.
Under time Weeriasteraces, all be could say at present was
that be bored the government, and particularly the right
hon. beroset, would, during the ensuing release, apply them-
selves to the angiteation of some remedy for the evils he had
demonstrated, and he begged leave to aoudads by moving
for leave to bring in a bill to alter the treatment and condi-
tion of juvenile criminals in this country.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Sir G. GREY said he should have felt disposed to give his
went to the motion, on the ground that it was not aim' the
expression of benevolent sentiments, bat the framing and I
embodying such a system for reforming criminals as would I
offer the maw for overcoming the immense difficalties that
were is the way of legislating on the subject of juvenile
offenders. If the hon. member bad had a bill prepared,
with all the minute details which such a manure most of
necessity consist of, he should have been inclined to allow it
to be brought in, but be must protest against the assump-
tion of the non. member, that the subjoin was easy to be
dealt with, it being, in get, one of the most difficult and
impracticable questions that ever owe under the coosidease
ties of the government.
Mr. BANKES said that the chief consideration in respect
to juvenile criminals was to separate them from felons of a
more advanced age. He was glad to see the "ob-
ject in such good hands ; he had himself prepared a measure
on this important question ; but he had no doubt the hon.
member's bill would produes the desired results, and he
most heartily wished him success.
Sir J. PAKINOTON was of opinion that a committee
would have been the best way of dealing with this difficult
question, as he suspected that the hon. member bad not pre-
pared the bill which be had ask :d leave to briog in.
Mr. HENLEY hoped that the hon. member would go
one step further and bring in a bill, thereby giving the house
the advantage of his wisdom and experience in guiding
them through the immense difficulties that surrounded the
whole question which he had brought under consideration.
Sir G. GREY said, in answer to Mr. Bankes, that the
bets stated by him came to his knowledge for the first time
sow, and that he would immediately inquire into teem.
Mr. M. MILNES espressed his intention to bring in a
I bid Won the session closed.
Lew was them given to bring in the bill—Mr. M. Manes
sad Mr. Ruffian to prepare it.
IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he bad been appealed to in pri-
vate for the purpose of inducing him to put off his motion
en the subject of the Irish church, and he now publicly gave
his answer to that appeal by stating that it was not in his
power to empty with that request, as he knew his only
chance for keeping a house, as far as the whig government
was concerned, assisted in thacircumstance that his motion
was prior in the paper to a motion of the Attnrney-General
for leave to bring in a bill connected with the law. He
had hoped that when the whig government floated
into power they would havo taken some measures
wards reforming those flagrant abuses in the
Irish church which they bad, when seated on the
opposition honcho, so incessantly and vehemently
denounced. When the whirrs were in opposition the abuses
of the Irish church formed their slogan. They were the
gathering war cry of the pment men in office, but for the
last few years that cry had not been raised, and the instru-
ment that had been once so loudlr and so frequently sounded
was now like the fabulous harp of Tara bung up and unstrung.
It should not be his fault if the notes of that instrument did
not again resound within the walls of the house. The ques-
tion he was about to enter upon was of the utmost cone*.
queues. Many hon. gentlemen would recollect that in July,
1846. his hon. friend, the member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Bun-
combe), in
of the noble lord, the first minister of
state, on what principles his government would be eon.
ducted? The noble lord was very much astonished at such
a queen, and with some tautness he replied, "upon the
opinMm he had always professed, and the priaciples he had
always acted ou." (A laugh.) Well, many thought that
answer was more cart than explanatory ; others, how-
ever, thought that the noble lord had only to get his feet
firm in the *drupe to settle this much vexed question. f
he (Mr. Osborne) had had an doubts at that time, they
were dispelled when he saw the constitution of the noble
lord's cabinet, for it was compoud of noble lords hadtlmen who from the year 1823 down to 1845,given
constant votes and made many able speeches to prove that
the Irish church, as by law erablished, was the root of all
discontent in that country. (Cheers, and laughter.) The
noble lord had now been three yew in office, but he main-
tained a most remarkable silence upon this subject. Ire-
land was only to be renovated by measures in detail, and
not one word was to be beard about the Irish church.
(Hear•hear.) In 1823 the question of the Irish
teupoialities was first moved in that bow by
that pioneer of all insprovein •nt, the member for Montrose.
In 1833 Lord Althorp brought in a bill to amend the
laws relative to the Irish church. By that bill the vestry
ease was abolished, and 10 bishops were removed ; but the
principle of the bill, the great appropriation clause—the
147th dame, was, as his thought, in an evil hour abandoned.
In 1834, Mr. Ward, not at all daunted, conjured up the old
shade of appropriation, and with so much success that, like
Batman's ghost, it broke up the cabinet of the noble lord.
(Hear.) That cabinet, however. was patched up again, and
on March 30th, 1835, the noble lord at the head of the go.
venimient brought in a motion on the Irish chuck, is the
course of which he said :
Otter* was a totem compact between thepargament of the United
Kingdom and thepeople, gives by the King. ressind Wiles
and approved by the Lords •.—The dated trend Wbog=
sow la amerced greet embarrassment to everystatemierithiessems
try ; there is nodoubt that the moral as well es Oriel coodidea of
the people is one of great degradation. The quesien I Inn le sea.
elder is their moral ourtition, and low far the ahem& sehablieheased
in Ireland bears on that condition. You are net le l
us WO
alit
cannot listen to the well-founded !grievances et bdii. Nil see
prepared to do her justice; and yet ii.sist on is mamma te the
legigative union.
That was strong lain coming guagefrom the dolt
minister of the day, and accordingly the hew
Owed upon that occasion an appropriation clause. I
In 1843 Mr. Smith O'Brien, who, however the home
again blame him for his rashness, would at least be admitted
to have been an boom member of parliament—(hur, hear)l
—brought forward a motion to inquire into the causes of
Irish discontent, and be found that upon that occasion the
right hen gentleman the Chancellor of the Esohoquer (who
be sees sorry to see was sot in his place) the Chancellor of
the Exchequer—then Mr. Wood, and 'Ming opposite—made
ass of twee nerds—sad he trusted the right hon. gentleman
the President of the Board of Trade would take them down
in order that he might tell his right hon. friend what hie
sentiments had been in 1843. (A laugh) Well, the Chan-
delle' of the Etedbruator upon that occuien said ;
Ms evils of berme an usdbmand, sod of greet =pita,. I
Wompt the Inc we the lute ot thee_ awn- he did set Weals
amen paws mummy. liat if
et the Rune Whelks er Weld end little
es inn seadenees did bee bed arrived at. 111
adstamincelt threw% mentries et ffiweps, they wed=fiZ
ef them win* ma endildemeit melentnee he the heed' sr
awe of the pepnlnbm. It toes nst he hos. =Wm ea
bb PM I aft le /•••••• • gelhar; %nese aet or die
se rowendlle porde. weighs% a mob be at els
=at. Se mead lend* bel been Old dew. It was ear
an air meilders of as eppentbm le wpm measures sad
perils a reedy for the ed.
He (Mr. Osborne), however, skean go teethe' than the
eight hoe. gentleman, and should emleaveer to repent a Mr
Indy. and a remedy, ton. to which the debt les gentlemen
had already assented (Hey, hear.) Well, then, the right
bent. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Sir W. Somer-
ville) got up and mode. for him, upon that occasion, a mot
animated speech. (A laugh
) He did not say that invidi-
nerdy ; but the right hon. gentleman was highly mind.
He said,
another great Flews* of Imbed um the Zetablisteed (hutch of
the minority. Be had heard it said that the !government would net
moven that giteetion. He would ask the eonsereative and ,hristian
isotherms at England. if they were in the situation of the Id*
would they submit to it I Would they not must it t They would.
He appealed to the Arise hon. gentleman now as " a am-
seevative and a Christian gentleman," would he resent that
hinny ? (Great laughter.) He found that the right
hon. gentleman the member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham)
also admitted the propriety of dimension, for he admitted
that it was a most important subject, and that it was
at the bottom of all their difficulties. In 1844, so
afraid was the noble lord (J. Russell) of the question
being taken out of his hands by Mr. Smith O'Brien. that be
mewed for a committee to invitee ism the stare nf Ireland,
eat thereupon again a mat remarkable debate ensued.
The noble lord said :
Wats the ministers of the crown, now In sSee, shrink from the
inmemlbrtity of maintaining the dcetrineewhieb the, maintaired
who Y earin•hiea. end of huardinw the peace of Inland, by a mess
ilagrust violation of Infilantentary faith, I have no roundemse to wait
kir ether meson?... With regard to the hide rung, the trstein
wide% I should be disposed to adopt would be one which should put
the Established Church, as regards Roman cath..lies and protestanto,
on a footing of per feet equality.
He thought the house would my thet that was pretty strong
Immure t but what would they think of this) He had
pseitively rubbed his eyes when he saw it. Here was the
opinion of the right hon. gentleman the Secretsry of State
should Hew Departuvnt; and it wee the last quotation he
make from the rse eche"' of esbinet ministers, bemuse
it was a climax. (A laugh. The right hon. gentleman
said—
It is impoeilde for any ens who knows the feelings of human na-
ture, to suppose that the Irish people • an look n on the recent .tate of
theeeelesiseleal erten in•Treland witbau, the deenetdeaatisfaction.
I, is not • nuns gratin.' of money, it is one which °ramie the feel-
-I,‘„, of a rode mon rh the creation be beet with difitonttr. I deny
it to be • dill-ulty mdhient to deter a MnMer of the crown from
dealing with R. On this subject I certain, "anemia vary strong

fretless. ris, I wet say, eothing appears to me worse, nothing
more imaMetse then for uthemeat mender. they win not entertain
the .earsies of the Inthisnesh Wme 1t is be= with difficulties.
Us Diem mem ee mmems het •esmptees swim never weld be
ompae=. bute. Ima end inivened Church °gibe
rit =m-
y ealsted. rilow what aid the Mese Wok of that ? (Cheers.) That
was in 1844. The whole of the cabinet voted for that motion
of the noble lord's, awl all the present race of lords of the
treseury. and people of that class. lauh. Bat in the
year 1846 Mr. Ward moved a very remarkable mend et
to the motion of the eight bon. baronet the member for Tem-
worth, on the question of Maynooth, to the effect that all
the funds for the s-stentation of Maynooth should be taken
out of those devoted to ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland.
Mr. Ward was in a very large minority upon that occa-
sion, in which he was joined by the noble lord at
the head of the government, the right hon. gentleman the
Sanitary fur the Haws Department, and the rest of the go-
vernmeut. He hoped whatever course the government might
adept with regard to this motion, that they would not, at all
I mots take the course recently adopted by the right bon.
gentleman, who thought that this was a question of the
"deepest moment," and move the previous question
(Hear, hear.) People out of doors were extremely puzzled
to make cut what that " previous question" meant. If they
wanted a title for the present seasiOn, he should s 7 they
might christen it the session of previous question"— =eau
and laughter)—for never, in all the annals of parliament
had that motion been so frequently made. (Hear, hear.)
Ignorant, however, as people out of doors might be, those
within that house knew very well that the previous question
was nothing more than a parliamentary sleight of hand to cut
the acquaintance of old friends who had been useful in oppo-
sition, but who might bring discredit on the party when
they succeeded to power. (Cheers.) He had now given abrief
and imperfect sketch of the birth, parentage, and abandon-
ment of the Irish church question—(a laugh)—and if be had
attempted its rieurrection he had done 53 because, in the
words of the right hon. baronet at the head of the Home
Department, he did not think it a mere question of money
alone, although he would have tee financial reformers of
England to look about them, and to recollect when the tax-
gatherers called at their door, =considerable portion of their
money went to sustain the army in Ireland necessary to the
support of the Irish church. (Hear.) He had revived this ques-
tion because he thought it fluent, mperial as well as an Irish
question, beam". he felt co whatever measures they
might pus, however beneficial they might be, however they
might deal with the land or the law, that so lon as they left the
Irish ehuech se it was at present, so long would Intend be,
not merely the difficulty of the minister, but the embarrass-
neat of the empire—so long would the noble lord be justi-
fied in going down to that house and telling them, as he had
dose in 1844, that Inlaid was "occupied and not governed"
—en long Ireland would be occupied and not governed by
whatever minister presided in this country,. and so long
would Ireland remain, in the graphic wens of the hon.
member for Buckinghamshire,. in • state of " social decom-
position." (Cheers.) It was impossible, however, to judge
of the present state of Ireland correctly without reference to
, its peat history. He knew there were some enthusiasts who,
adopting the views of Archbishop Usher, asserted that Ire-
land never was really Roman catholic that Se Patrick never
was a Roman catholic bishop, but a regular orthodox divine
of the evangelical school. Be that as it might, however,l
there could be no doubt that St. Patrick was educated at I,
Rome, that he maimed the name of Patricia', and that he
was sent to Ireland by Pope Celestine. No doubt a schism
between the Irish church and Rome did occur as to the
computation of Easter, but the Irish church submitted.)
and was reconciled to Rome. The reformation in Ireland
I wee founded on the question of appropriation. The original
releemen who went there cued very little about the cow
union of Irish souls—their object was confiscation, not ems-
union and they had been denounced by Creamer se greedy
and covetous' reformers. It would be acknowledged that
the Monsen had failed, and that the history of the einettth
In Ireland had been written in blood ; for Elisabeth, thatch
a very good Penults in this country, was a
nen there. (Hear.) In 1635, when L:Zlsellni-
=tete were 'questioned, that nobleman stated in his
that they had not been undertaken alone
IlePral e increase of revenue, but also meet epee.
stilly for the advantage of proteetantism. In 1635,
however, English troops, the army :of occupation of
OM day, were not • very great expense upon this country,
Wenn they were maintained by fines levied on Roman
eathedice who did not attend the protestant church—and one
of the " graces" that was sought for was to be allowed to
absent themselves from the protestant church without being
fined. It was well known that that excellent person, as
many thought him,: Charles I. pocketed 120,0001. for
those " graces," but never kept his pledges. He new
came to the policy of Cromwell, which was written in one
word," extirpation"—(hear, hear)—who gave to the Irish
the agreeable altereadve of being sent to hell or Connaught.
Then in 1732 the Duke of Onifton procured an act to pan
the Irish parliament of a most disgraceful character. By
this act the protestant parliament of Ireland sought to debate
every Roman catholic priest to a level with the unsexed
guardians of • Mehemet= seraglio! It was sent to Ragland,
and Cardinal Fleury remonstrated with Sir R. Walpole upon
it, whosuppremed the act. He would challenge the history of
say country to produce such an Algerine act as that—it wee
known in histonameless act." (Hear i hear.
n) lie
passed over also he question of the union ; but t woeoto-
rious that union votes were bartered for Irish bishoprics
(Hear, hear.) How stood the case now ? After nearly 300
years, that church, in spite of all the advantages of revenue
and political supremacy, stood very much in the same com-
dittos as when she was first planted in that country. Had
they shaken the faith of the Roman cathelio classes of teat
country? He denied it altogether. They might revile
them as beggars, but they could not taunt them as apostates.
There was • Orem which they wed to bear more
frequently formerly than they did at the present mo-
ment " justice to Ireland." He had always
been very much puzzled when right honourable gen-
tlemen used it, to know exactly what they meant. He
knew that there was • large and most respectable party in
Inland and in the house who meant identity of institu-
tions ; he, for one, must say, that he dissented from that
doctrine : he considered it not only to be a fallacy, but a
misfortune. He considered that the endeavour to put
English laws, the result of long commercial pree-
penty, upon Ireland, was most unfortunate. It ap.
paired to him that her Majesty's government had
taken for their example, that of the great practical economist
of antiquity, Procreate.; ell their measures were asplied
without consultation to the feelings of the Irish ; because •
measure worked well in England, it wss immediatelyA taken
foe greeted that it would work well in Intend. t one
time your legislative Procreates had endeavoured to stretch
Roman catholic couseionees to true protestant dimensions
by the screw of penal laws, at another to cut short their
purees by an English poor-law, constructed in n-
ausea of the country and the moot extraordi-
nary thing was that this prictice was confined to Ireland
elms. Take the wse of Scotland—compare Scot-
land with Inked. There was no cry of " justice to Seat
land." Why? Scotland retained all her native institutions ;
she had her civil aid criminal law ; we tried to saddle her
with a bench of bishops and a church, but Staked refused,
and we had not only acknowledged her church, but given
I,2ool.syear to the episcopal clergy. What was the consequence
of our governing Scotland through a sentiment of nation-
ality ? The consequence was that Scotland was a quiet end
inexpensive neighbour: that then were at this moment only
2,000 soldiers in Scotland, and Scotland gave no trouble
whatever; but she had her own church and her
own system of law, and if we did hear of a little
discontent when Unlearned lord (the Lord Advocate) brought
forward a marring bill, and which was only carried by five,
he would no doubt withdraw it. In Ireland you had wit
Elea law, English church ; Ireland had not one
native institution except the constabulary. What was the
consequence ? The rich protestant ehurcb was a miaoriry.
They ignored the existence of any other creed, and gave the
regimes dowel to preebyterians, and neglected the catholic";
they busily owned their =beano.. They had as srmy of
nearly 60,000 men, including the pensioners of police, and
they had the native Institution, the eonstabulwy. Com-
pere the two systems. Would it not be more economical.
more wise, more just, to rule Ireland se you ruled Seetnnil,
through the sentiments of nationality and through her affre-
doe. Let the house ask itself, did the Irish church promote
Of did it impede the spiritual and moral improvement of the
people ? We should cot have to go further than that. Theban.
would real the division the other night on national educe-
d's'', and only look at the conduct of some of the heads of the
Irish church en account of nation.] education. Because
they could not teach the people according to their own view
of thinking—because they could not comeel Roman ...thorn
parents to send their children to hear what theY called the
unmediated Bible, they objected to any education at all, like
reconeetOliver l'zisethrad
eerteatnantislahokptddfolouni"needimantheeY;obthrordh'es
measures, that he called these the Devil's school., and that
they had done everything to hinder the clergy from atro-
aiming these schools, he Joked, was the condition of this
chart* slice as to impede or promote the spiritual aid morel
improvement of the people. and he was content to leave the
Question of spiritual improvement on that hese ?
It had been said that this church was of an expen-
sive nature. It was curious, in talking of the expen-
sive nature of proteetantiem, to see how the Reman Whelks
had progressed and how the peon/dents hid diminished in
that artistry, Seder the influence of the estithliehed church.
He would go as tar back as 1672, when Sir W. Petty, in
" Ameileasy of Ireland," ite.
Wel nemlierethemiletants in Ireland be sets down at 1,100.000.
mug mew OWN wan name catholic% and 150,000 legal pro.
geremlst Ae residne nieseof ;mists. Sir W. Petty says : One
Weep is Intend Is move than tbirty it Engliod ; to him he would
gam MOW ayes. To t5O ministers Its would give Mt. each per
Thena"e we cams down rehheßpresent time.d It appeared from
I a return made to the ris num of Lord s that the pewits-
et= in 1728 was 1,700 000 ; 700,000 returned w Protestant'.
In 1734 the Roman catholic. were two tome to testents.
In 1824 there was • curious return made on the evidence of
Mr. Leslie Foster before the House of Lords by the protes-
tant clergymen of the number e' their flocks. Out of a
ovulation of 6,801.827, they rave 1,2E19,358 protestan's.
They took in not only the legal protestant' but the non-eon-
fOrnsists. In 11134 there was another return made, and by
that return we find that the lee.' pretestants had donned
752 064. whilst the Reuses catholic. hael incre to
7 913,940. In 1841, the protestaws wire 852 000, end the
Roman cathodes remained the same. So that the Roman
catholic., in spite of chartered echo, Is, had inereaeed nearly
seven to one. (Hear, hew.) So much for the expansive)
force of prwestandens. He rams now to a very ointerial
point ; be wine now to the return of benefices, which was
made in 1837, of the number ci mote-tants. There ea. a
report of a commission of public instraction in 1837 on Irish
benefices, from whin% it. annewed that there wen
99 benefices, with lees then 29 preernanta.
154 ditto with between 20 and 50 protestant%
41 without °math& protast.nt. •
Here was a meat fallacious way of viewing this question
in reference to the church eviler. 0 iwlerneu tone up
Hell:wen'. Almanac, and site a certain numbn of a:tingt,
put down, and then said, what a large congregation this