The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-06 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDA'

Bat it appeared the convicts were to go where they
pleased; and perhaps, tht refwv, they would prefer
going to the nearest piece—Calais; but whet was to
prevent their toMing back .again ? the Liverpool
man would return to London and tie London man to Liver-
pool. He should like so see a cargo of convicts landed at
Calais; what would the 'French poli.o say to such an impor-
tation when they ware told that they were highway robbers
I and pickpockets, and other felons from England? But then,
' again, there was the advantage of recipe-city—they might
mud all their rogues to us, and that, by toe way, would not
be very likely to increase the entente cordial . (A laugh.)
The only case of punishment of a similar character was that
enacted by one of the six acts, the pawing of which his noble
and learned friend opposite (Lord Denman) and himself
(then in the other house) had vainly endeavoured to pre-
vent. The banishment there was for political or blasphemous
libels, and persons guilty of such °Cocas the French would
not have so great an objection to; but it was never once put
in force, and, in fact, there was no instance of prosecution
for a second offence of the kind. He approved of that part
of the noble earl's statement which referred to the improve-
ment of prison discipline. He hoped there would soon be
an addition to the number of gaols, and that each would be
provided with industrial employment, either in the garden,
the field, or the workshop; and to ta k of the expense
attending such an improvement was moestrous and absurd.
The abolition of transportation would put at their disposal
600,0001. a year in the conveyance uf comic's, betides the
expense of the penal colony itself. He was glad to hear the
account which the noble earl had given of Gibraltar, namely,
that ten t r twelve pounds a year was the clear gain of •
convict's labour. It was the greatest encour igement to ex-
tend the system, and make all confinement in prison subject
to the exereige of similar industry. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY said there were but few of their lord-
ships who were not more competent to address their lordthips'
house on the subject before them than himself, yet he might
find some excuse for doing so from his recent connexion with
the Colonial-office, and the interest which he had always felt
on the subject. He thought the government, in contem-
plating the existing evils, were adopting too summary and
hasty a measure, by altogether departing from a system
which, he would admit, had beeen suoject to considerable
abuse. He regretted that the present was the last
opportunity on which parliament could interfere; for al-
though it was competent by the exercise of the royal prero-
gative, and the practice of the judges of the land, that sen-
tences of imprisonment should be substituted for transport-
ation, yet, it did appear to him, when the object
was not to affect individual cases but to adopt •
general system of a very doubtfal character as
to its results, that it should be the subject of
en act of parliament, most carefully and deliberately li
considered. He entertained great doubt es to the policy or
prudence of abrogating altogether the punishment of tran-
sportation—sot only looking at it as a punishment to deter
others from crime, but also pa a means of reforming the cri-
minals themselves. In the fint instance, he believed that
traasputation for long periods was • punishment most
dreaded by culprits, who would look upon shorter terms of
trar.sportation or imprisonment with comparative indiffer-
ence. He also thought it was a punishment capable of being
worked most efficiently for the purpose of reformation. lie
feared there had been too hasty a condemnation by the com-
mittee who inquired into the subject of the system of the
assignment of convicts in 1831. As the noble earl had said,
much depended on the caprice and character of the indivi-
dual master to whom the convict might be assigned. In the
cases of some masters, it might be a heavy punishment,
whilst with others, it would be but trifling, and, with some,
no punishment at all. Yet his (Lori Stanley's) conviction
wee, that after a period of penal labour in the colonies, the
system of assignment was generally beneficial ; it brought
tconvicts into combination with men of integrity and
character; it introduced them again to private life,
which was calculated to p•odui e the most signal
advantages to the character and disposition of the
permos subjected to that punishment. He thought, again,
that • hasty step was taken in 1840, when her Majesty's
government announced that transportation to the colony of
New South Wales was for ever to case. He considered
they had sacrificed a great advantage in giving up for the
purposes of transportation a continent almost as large as
Europe—and more or less settled—to all parts of which
they might disperse the vast maw of contamination and
crime, which it was necessary for the safety and welfare of
this country should be poured out from our shores, and
which the noble earl admitted must lse sent away, although
in a different manner. He did not deny the great incon-
venience resulting from the great extent of transportation,
all of which was directed to Van Diemen's Land. At the
period at which the system of probation gangs was intro.
duced by the noble lord now at the head of the government,
there was every reason to believe that as the convicts came
out from the probation gang they would be absorbed in the
population ; but unfortunately that period was coincident
with the sudden collapse of the prosperity of Van Die-
men's Land, which reduced persons who would have been
employers of labour to a state in which they could
not employ that labour. Nothing could be more unfortunate
than the period when the system of probation gangs was
applied ; and yet, under all the dioadeantsgee, it had acted
beneficially. He did not mean to say that in the papers
oi bcre their lordships there were not recitals of great hor-
rors, but that was not the general character of the sys'em of
transportation; on the contrary, it was confined to two or
three localities of the probation gang and in the absence of
proper superintendence and watchfuls, nems—in fact, the most
ordinary precautions appeared to have been most incon•
crivably neglected, and the state of things described was
such as to render it hardly a matter of astonishment that
such consequences should have arisen. But, he would ask
their lordships to look at the picture drawn in the papers
before them of the character of the convict population of Van
Diemen's Land. There had been a misinterpretation of the in-

InientionsofgoVernmentwith regard to theciinditional pardons.
It was intended that the governor should have the power of
issuing pardons in all the colonies iu Van Diemen's Land, so
that the men might be diffused over the whole continent,
without a violation of the engagement that the
government would send no more convicts there.
As to the degrees of punishment—the preliminary
discipline—he believed the noble earl and himself
agreed. (" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) The in.
&Won of severe punishment at first, and successive stages of
greater er less restraint, until gradually, by good conduct,
the convict should emerge among the free and uncontami-
nated
population, was a subject upon which the noble earl I
and himself agreed; but the question wee, in what !manner I
could the preliminary punishment and discipline be best
carried out ? It appeared to the government that the object
would be best accomplished by the preliminary punishment
Wring place in this country, and that transportation in name
only should follow. He thought the difficulty of finding
severe penal employment at homawould be greater than in
a penal colony. The maximum term of imprisonment would
be eighteen, and the minimum ail, months. Now, he did
not think that due distinction would be made either in the
minds of the convicts or the public, as to the nature of the
offence or severity of the punishment, when to all trans-
portable offences the principle of short imprisonment was
applied, followed by food and good wages, and ultimately
succeeded by emigration with their wives and families. He
believed such a punishment would cease to be a terror
to evil doers —(" Hear, hear," from Lord Den-
man)—but, on the other hand, would rather be a
something desirable to be obtained. (Hear, hear, hear.)
He admitted that the question of expense was a matter of
minor consideration. The expense amounted to about
200.0001. or 300,0001., per annum, a sum which was looked
upon with comparative indifference by this country. The
first application of the first step of this plan was one of great
difficulty, The number of the adult male population now
sentenced annually to transportation (and he did not think
that the noble earl contemplated diminishing that number)
amounted to not much more than 4000 persona. Nowthey would
have to begin by finding accommodation for that number in
the prisms of Pentonville and Parkhurst. In every year 4000
on an average would have to be provided for. Five years would
be the average period of time in which they would be em-
ployed on public works. Then, setting aside the calculation
of casualties and mortality, they would, at the end of that
time, have 20,000 male adult convicts, nut for one year or
five years, employed on public penal works in England. He
would venture to say that a system so revolting to the feel-
ings of the people of this country would most saturedly
break down, as it would seriously interfere with the demand
for labour, and throw the whole government employ. ,
ment into the hands of this convict population, who would
labour on these public works well fed, and well kept, '
and with the further promise, that at the expiration of their
sentence they would be sent as free labourers to some of the
colonies. Such a system would operate as a grow injustice
on the bonnt, industrious, and unconvicted portion of the
population. 'They now had hundreds of thosasads begging
for that free labour which they were going to confer on con-
victs. (Hear, hear.) It may be truly said that emigration
would form no portion of the sentence of the convict, because
after he had gone through the penalty, he would then be
played in a situation in which many of his industrious and
honest fellow-countrymen were trying to be placed; a situa-
tion in which, through motives of economy, the government
now refused to place them. Looking further into the qua-
teen be thought that they should have some little feeling as
to the presence of convicts in this country, that is, assuming
that they were not to be sent to France or any other
country, but that after the period of their sentence, they
were to have the mesas of emigrating with themselves and
families, and to be compelled to emigrate. To whom, then, wee
the choice of a locality to be left ? Was it to be left to the
convicts themselves? and were they then to be free men
under no surveillance, uncontrolled, and restored to society ?
His noble friend must not, in that case, so far deceive himself
as to think that they would not be well known as *ankle
wherever they went to. He could not send them in triplets,
in entsabins of 3000 or 4,000 at a time, without every
ensigns* ship well knowing that it carried with it a con-
siderable portion of convicts ; if it were not known, they
would he prestising a fraud on the hoe* persons going out
with them, and if it were known, there would be a separa-
tion between the hosed emigrants and the convicts in the
emigrant alp, mil awe would be a marked disinsdee—eo
much so mist the egindeal would be leaked upon es a sea-
Met seed war is tins fsbilment of his palliasse. He Ter
collected tint when he was Colonial ilesrelsey he made
an experiment by essilling est a Hutted umber •of
Pentonvllle and Parkhurst primers to some of the cabanies,
and it was with the greatest &Musky that they were got to
Karst M the shr of sheet se of them. It was the
woos 'yew rested yeedtle semplabit, sad petitions were
seat frees every Mlle esker, fedi praying that it may not
be sellestel le the etwlembelies'et babe made a convict
oohs,. Tlsy bet *..mere
os Now South
Wales amid be no a assvict missy, and he wished
to ask damsdidthey that they would be keeping faith
with the askew when they sedistituted lir the present sys-
tems hapsieement bee WWI din Nerlbik Island or et Van
Lita4:l6l,:t swpitslies of that time the
melookfm7 • of 4060 or MINI emlis to the
wee askew / Stay astiai emir pram* /ILO= 0167
would lane ememelreases fromevery early. The edge
esti dfd est lea limn' when Obey mat to seat thee ass.

fG, MARCH 6, 1847.

nets, Bat if the menet, were left to their own option, they
rd did they think that either place would be satietied at
would be only too glad to be sea: to Canada and New York ;
beim made the receptacle of convicted criminals ? It may
be well for them to say that they would allow the eonvicu
them to go, and then they imagined that foreign countries
but they did more, they camp, Bed
go to these colonica;
would be deluded into the belief that this we, not a virtual
renewal of the system of ttansportation. (Hear.) In the
expense than would be incurred by a due preliminary step they would involve themselves in far
grater
adminis-
tration of proper euperintending officers in the colonies.
He must say that it would be far more advantageous to limit,
if they pleased, the extent of transportation, by nut applying
it indiecriminately, and above all by, not applying it in
cues of juvenile offenders, as was hitherto the practice,
and making imprisonment a more frequent sentence.
If they made transportation more infrequent, and sent out
of the country a diminished number of convicts, and insti-
tuted a more efficient corps of officers who could controul
and superintend the discipline of the convicts, and were
capable of giving them in their differert calling+ useful,
profi,able and laborious employment in the colonies, they
would not in that cue interfioe with the demand for private
individual labour, because individual free labour was not in
the market. The noble lord concluded by expressing a
hope that nn final or immediab!e step would be taken with-
out the p ifliament and the country having a full opportunity
of expressing their opinion as to the details and the probable
working of this system which her Majesty's government
intended to introduce, and which must seroualy affect the
redid and moral state of this country. (Hear, hear.)
Lord DENMAN, who at times spoke quite inaudibly,
said that the breaking up of the establishment at Norfolk
Island was a step wh-ch he extremely rejoiced at, and he
was glad to know that transportation to that colony would
be for a time suspended. When, however, he heard that
the terror of transportation was intended to be withdrawn
altogether from the minds of criminals, be must own that he
retarded that expression of opinion with the very greatest
dismay. He believed that the population of this country
were not either stupid, or foolish, or sinning, because they
did not receive proper instruction, but because there were
certain classes of them linked together in crime. Were
criminals then to be told that whatever crimes they have
committed, they were not to be transported ? Such a decla-
ration would be calculated to create considerable alarm, as
there would be no security against crime. He did nut be-
lieve that transportation was without the greatest ter-
rine. He could state, from his own experience, that
there were, and he believed that they had ill of
them seen examples of the terrors of transportation,
' which were so overwhelming, that no person could
witness them without being struck, and that no per-
son pausing on the verge of crime could behold without
being deurred from its commis ion. One effect of trans-
portation which they lost sight of was, that it removed per-
sons, influential either by their talents, or wealth, or habits,
from clime whom they were employing in, and daily in-
structing in, the commission of crime. The reeeiver of stolen
goods was, for instance, a man of respectability as far
as general appearances went ; he paid his tradesmen, and had
great influence, and was a very great benefactor, perhaps, in
the place in which he resided, but he was, nevertheless, a
normal teacher to a school of convicts. He was convicted
and sentenced to transportation ; and was it no tenor to
him to be told, that from that moment he was no longer •
subject of England, except for the purpose of punishment,
end that he hag no longer an opportunity of corrupting
those whom he had been corrupting, and that he was going
to a place where he could commit no further crime, and one
rapt no furthercriminals? He apprehended that no greater
benefit could be conferred on society than the removal of
that man from the sphere in society in which he
had done so much mischief. Instead of that, what
was the punishment now to be inflicted on such
a man ? The noble lord who hut just spoken had pointed
out the infinite multiplication of criminals which would in
this country result from this system. He spoke of the
difficulty of enforcing penal labour, and it was his (Lord
Denman's) opinion that it would be accompanied with the
greatest evils to society, when he took into consideration
what wee known of Marseilles and other places which were
made the receptacles of convicts, where crimes were com-
mitted of the blackest dye, and where the feelings which
the convicts entertained towards their keepers were none but
those of hatred. The criminal was under this system
told, that if he committed a crime he would be
imprisoned for a period not exceeding eighteen maths.
The prisoner had every hope of obtaining a favour-
able report of his conduct, and from his expertness be
knew that the worst criminals were the best behaved in
prison. If they persuaded the chaplain that they became
extremely moral and religious, the period of their incarcera-
tion would be shortened. To a young person that period
was not very formidable, and he had the opportunity after-
wards of obtaining some property, and becoming a proprietor
of land in a foreign country, where he would become a mem-
ber of soci ty without that sense of disgrace which he ought
to entertain. The terrors of transportation had a great
effect on a criminal, and be also had a great
chance at the end of his period of punishment
of being restored to society by the demand for
labour in those distant regions. The circumstances which
took place in Van Diemen's Land and Norfolk Island were
the result not only of mismanagement on the part of the
officers but also from the position in which the prisiners
were placed. He was frequently deterred from paring the
sentence of transportation from his knewledge of the state in
which the convicts would be placed. The noble lord had
pointed out to them how there would be a compulsory trans-
portation to a place where there may be a demand for la-
bour. They well knew that convicts would choose that oolong
which was nearest to their own country. There was another
ease which he wished to put forward when a man was sen-
tenced to death, that sentence wu frequently commuted ;
and a compromise was then entered into with the culprit, in
which it was provided that if he did not consent to be trans-
ported he should be executed. But in this case the com-
promise provided, that if the criminal did not submit to be
imprisoned for a certain period in this country, and to work
after that period, he should be transported. Here then they
had the difficulty of transportation thrown on their
hands again. He would now take the opportunity
of stating that he held in hie hand a petition
for the entire abolition of capital punishment, and
expressing his belief that the public mind was running
very strongly in that direction. The noble lord con-
cluded by recommending the government to recon-
sider the matter, and to see whether it would not be more
advisable to take steps to diminish the extent of transporta-
tion than to confine themselves solely to this system. (Hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND was of opinion that great
danger would arise in this country if criminals were to be
told that from this moment transportation was to cease.
Earl GREY, in reply, said he thought a few words of
explanation were necessary, in consequence of what had
fallen front some noble lords. The noble duke opposite,
and his noble and learned friend behind him (Lord Denman)
had expersed an opinion that such • change as was now
proposed ought not to be carried into effect without an act
of parliament. Undoubtedly, an act would ultimately be
absolutely necessary; but by the existing powers eon-
(erred upon the crown, the
,punithment of transportatioa
could be commuted to Imprisonment for a certain period.
The late government had come to the conclusion that trans In answer to Dr. BOwg/NO,
portation must, of necessity, be suspended for two years ; Mr. M. GIBSON stated that the only new regulation with
and they had thought it best to make the alteration in the reference to quarantine that had been made, was the ex-
way now proposed. The present government had adopted emption from quarantine of ships from Turkey, laden with
the fame conclusion ; and as the law as it stood gave them non-enumerated goods, provided with clean bills of health,
power to introduce this system, and u, for some time, at all and all the crew and pamettgen of which are free from sus-
events, it must be more or less experimental, it would be picion in a sanitory point ofview.
introduced in that manner; and no application would be DRAIN &GB (IRELAND).
made to parliament for an alteration of the law, until it was Mr. P. SCROPE asked whether there would be any
found bow the change practically operated. For the pre- objection to the production of farther returns ss to the ex-
sent, therefore, sentences of transportation would continue pease of drainage in Ireland ?
to be passed, precisely as they were now ; and as Mr. LABOUCHERE said he had no doubt that the re-
a very large number of the convicts so sentenced turn would he given.
at present, were not sent to Australia, but to Gibraltar, ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Bermuda, the hulks, Pentonville, or Millbank, this would On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
continue to be the case, only to • larger extent. For a long it was ordered that the house at its rising adjourn to Mon-
period, prior to 1843, when the noble lord opposite (Stanley) day next,
made an alteration, prisoners sentenced only to seven years' PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND.)
transportation bad not been transported ; his noble and Mr. BOUVERIE said, that seeing in the Dublin Gazette
learned friend (Lord Denman) who had passed the son- proclamations for sixteen asseeement sseriens, which he
tenses might not be aware of it, but such was the feet. The presumed to be with reference to public works, and an
sentence, though nominally one of transportation, did not Act having teased to provide a substitute for public works,
mean transportation, but confinement in the hulks for seven he wished to ask whether these proclamations were sane-
years; and they were discharged at the end of four years, in tioned by the government ?
the case of gnod conduct. That had been the practice for a Mr. LABOUCHERE would remind the hon. gentlemen
long time, till in 1843, his noble friend had commenced the that the act he referred to bad only bean pawed a week.
practice offending abroad a great number of convicts. There was every desire on the part of the government to re-
Lord STANLEY.—It was in my time. duos and extinguish the system of public works in Ireland
Earl GREY mid that all those measures were concerted as soon as pound,.
between the two departments, the home and the colonial ; Mr. HUME asked, had any orders been sent to this effect
and no doubt this had been done In that way. Hereafter, to the government in Ireland ?
should the system of transportation be practically end per- Mr. LABOUCHERE replied that most distinct instruc-
manently abolished, that ought to be done by the • term dons had been forwarded to the government in Ireland on
authority of parliament; but the change now proposed was the subject.
experimental; and, while that experiment was in SUNDAY TRAVELLING.
it would be highly disadvantageous to alter the nominal son- On the motion of Mr. SPOONBR, the petition presented
tence, when the law, as it stood, gave the full power of by him on the 4th inst. from York, against the compulsory
carrying this meanies into effect. The new gover running of trains on railways on the Sabbath, was ordered
nor of Van Diemen's Land, and every one with to be printed with the votes.
whom he (Earl Grey) had convened on the PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
subject, aoreed that, for two years it would be impossible to Mr. EWART wished to learn from the right hon. the
send convicts to Van Diemen's 'Auld. A noble lord had ex- Secretary for Ireland, whether the public works in that
pressed his belief that, in a short time, there would be an country had to yet been suspended.
accumulation of about 20,000 convicts, and that penal labour Mr. LABOLCHERE said that the works were being
would fail them. That calculation might not be very re- stopped as speedily u possible, consistently with the sub.
mote from the truth; but it was no
_part of the present absence of the people.
scheme to reduce the transportation to Bermuda, Gibraltar, POOR RATES (IRELAND).
and other places. Government would do what they could Lord DUNCAN called the attention of the Secretary of
to improve the system there ; but convicts would continue State for the Home Department to a letter which had ap-
to be sent as before. But this large number of peered from Mr. Otway, a clergyman in Mayo. Mr. Otway
convicts must be confined to penal labour some- stated that two-thirds of the rate due is the Castleber
where or other ; and the question was, whether Union was payable by solvent parties ; •and farther, that the
were the facilities for this labour greater at home, rates had been refund to be streak, In the to that govern-
where there was abundance of wealth, and where the con- mess would make advances. He wished to know whether
victs would be under the immediate eye and control of the government meat le mate mimosa en the rate, and ales
government,—or in Van Diemen's where it was almost whether any attempts were to be made to recover tke rates
impossible to exercise an efficient ? If the now due.
inherent abuses belonging to the mires of melgoassut were Sir G. GREY said that the poor-law commissioner' had
properly looked into, no man would ash be seek a detestable issued explicit order that all defaulters should be summarily
system to be re-established. Like every system of slavery, dealt with. The milemen tbreeelsout the country had been
it was not some injurious to the convict than to the master directed to Tequila immediate psgmmt
to whom be was assigned. (Hear.) In the majority of Mr. B. ESCOTY wee to know whether Lord
cases, it had the seine effect upon the mutual relations Lucan bad as yet paid his rates, end if be had net, whether
between muter and servant, as the system of slavery he sought to be earned ea the sews of poverty? (A laugh.)
had had in our own colonies; and the evidence brought Sir 0. GREY nil be bed wrienteed that lord Loma
before the committee, over which Sir William Moleeworth believed that he had se led tight to pay the rata He bed
had presided, had convincingly shown that the system was no doubt that whale tie noble lard had amertalned his ?kr
most degrading and demoalising Penal labour, in some bllity he would pay them.
place or other, was the only puniahment that we had to THE CANTEEN SYSTEM.
rely upon ; for transportation was neither more nor less Col. LINDSAY woe, puissant to notice, to mine that
than penal labour in the colonies, instead of in England. an humble address be preeeneal M bee Maiesturtipeas is ing that
But it was said that transportation had such horrors that, she will be grasksalst Ideneed aims -to —.ego
Rif were abolished, society would be no longer safe • aad the ales diet tin preens wwwee• omega woe the
allumon had bees made to the cue of a receiver of stolen way; ant wbelber M geoid wet be giwgsf cis db.
goods. He would mention another cue, also of a receiver ciplfies &Mind Oboe e Weeps,
of stolen goods, perhaps the greatest receiver of stolen goods to mow the of bre= In canto,,,,itkin
in this country, who had made Immense wealth. the possimate or goolwity of the beemedui. He said that
This man was sentenced to be transported; and the prom. motion gets wee beegbt with moral'

he found no difficulty in evading the law so
fir as to 'preserve his wealth, and to transmit it to New
South Wales. He bribed some one there to apply for him
as ea assigned servant ; he was maligned 114xordingly ; and
he lived as well, and was as rich, and carried on as great •
trade In stolen goody, in Sydney, as he had done in London.
Lord STANLEY—But that could not be done now.
Earl GREY said that, under the existing ej stem, men
sentenced to fourteen years' transportation were sent to
Bermuda, and there put to penal labour; at the end of
eight years, if their conduct was good, they obtained a con-
ditional pardon, and might go to Mexico, the United
States, China, or any place except England. Under the
system, the convicts, instead of going direct
for Bermuda, would go to Pentonville, there to be placed
under meat strict and severe discipline for 18 months; they
would then he put on public works in this country, and be
subject to the same regulations as in Van Diemen's Land,
with this only difference, that here abuses might be Imme-
diately exposed and corrected, while there, two or three
years might elapse before the facts were known, and nearly
• year before a remedy could be applied. At the end of
eight years, the convicts, if they had conducted themselves
well, would receive their conditional pardon here, and would
then be sent to Van Diemen's Land, where they would be
precisely in the same situation as if they had under-
gone their penal labour in that colony. It would not
be denied that, in a new and comparatively unoccupied
country, a wider field existed for their labour ; and advan-
tage would be taken of this by sending the convicts there on
receiving their conditional pardon. Such a state of things
as bad existed in Van Diemen's Land and Norfolk Island
for the last six or seven years, could not have existed six
months in this country, without public opinion being de-
clared against it, and • reform forced upon government.
Hence the great advantage of the proposed change. But it
had been said by the noble and learned lord (Denman)
that the free people of this country could not bear the
sight of the infliction of penal labour among them. If
there was any. truth in this remark, how much more
unjust was it to inflict this spectacle upon the small commu-
nity of Van Diemen's L-rid, The period had arrived when
we must extend tke institutions under which Englishmen
everywhere wished to live, to the Australian colonies; and
he trusted that in the course of this cession he should
propose a measure for carrying those views into effect. He
was persuaded that the time had mom. when the admit/um
of representative government must be granted to Australia;
and, when it had given the colony thole advantages, would
the legislature dare to soy that penal labour, which could
not be inflicted at home, should be inflicted there ? It was
impossible. To insist upon maintaining transportation
to Van Diemen's Land would be to drive away the
free colonists at whatever pecuniary sacrifice to them-
selves to take refuge in South Australia, New South
Wales, or some of the neighbouring colonies; Van Die-
men's Land would become what Norfolk Island was, a vast
horde of criminals, 20,000 or 30,000 in number, with no.
thing but their keepers—no society of free men to watch
over the conduct of the officers ; and thus every abuse that
had prevailed in Norfolk Island would break out in that
colony. The noble duke opposite had spoken of the horrors
of transportation' as cutting off the convicts from all com-
munication with their relatives ; but in the case of hardened
criminals, it was not likely that such feelings would
operate; the professional criminal had few family
ties which be regarded. But, if the system of separa-
tion were enforced at home, for certain periods, it was
not improper that the el irainih should be deprived of those
advantages ; and this might be done as effectually in Pen
tonville, or the island of Portland, as in Van Dieman's
Land or Norfolk Island. His own opinion was, that the
wisest and best system was to limit the intercourse with rela-
tives, but to allow it within certain bounds. Formerly, it
had been the practice to send out to the colony the wives
and families of the " ticket-of-leave men;" this was a mast
judicious system, which it was proposed to re-establish.
fears bad been expressed by the noble lord (Stanley) that,
under the proposed system, there would not be such great
facility for distributing the convicts over the Australian colo-
nice ; but, in this respect, the system would possess equal
advantages with the one now abolished, the convicts being
still sent to Van Dieman's Land, at the end of their penal
labour. In Port Philip great anxiety had been expressed to
have some of these convicts sent there, provided they were of
good character, and had acquired habits of industry. A
similar demand was made at the Cape of Good Hope : so
that there would be no difficulty in obtaining employment
for the convicts abroad. As to the want of prison room
at home, so strongly insisted on by the noble duke
the difficulty was not near so great as that of continuing the
prevent system. Arrangements bad also been recently
made, by which • considerable :limber would be received
in the island of Portland. For these reasons, he thought
the change would be advantageous; and he would again
observe that, before it was made permanent, parliameut
would be asked to pass a law for that purpose.
Lord DENMAN repeated his objection, that an octet par-
liament would be necessary, in the first instance, before
adopting the proposed change. He doubted the power of
government to commute the sentence of transportation in the
way proposed ; any more than they could change the sen-
tence of death to transportation.
Earl GREY said, that tiro court' objected to by his noble
and learned friend was precisely the course now pursued.
An Act of Parliament gave express power to send convicts
sentenced to transportation either to Bermudas, Parkhurst,
the bulks, or Pentonville ; the only alteration now proposed
was. that they should all be sent to Pentonville.
In answer to a question from the Marquis &SALTS/WILT,
Esti GREY said, he understood that the number of con-
victs in the present year would not be so great but that they
might be disposed of without difficulty.
The house adjourned at half-past nine o'clock.

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