The Express.
London, England, 1851-05-10 00:00:00

modes of action, that lithe government had treated Roman ,
gatieglieswith indulgent..., if they Mete disposed to listen to
any grievance. aud, it puasible, to obtain a remedy, that
Would hardly be a reason for casting an insult on
the crown of this country, far from • inAtifiC3•
tims of attempting, without the consent of the
government to establish papal dominion in England. I
think, on the contrary, it would be a reason fur the head of
the body thus treated to pay some deference to the opinions
of the government which had been so liberal towards
them; to couciliatv them, if necessary, but at least not wan-
tonly to insult then, or the people whose affairs they di- !
meted. I think I should be passing an unjust imputation'
on the Pope if I said tilat he could be influenced to pursue '
such conduct sa. this. 31y belief is that the acts of the lire-
wilt government, or of former government., have not been
at all the Can.., of the papal aggression. lam ready to de•
fend the conduct of thew with whom 1 have acted during
the time that 1 have been in parliament, and of those who
before me achieved the restoration of the civil and political
rights of the Roman catholic+. All the conduct of the 21 years
from BO to 1.29, mill of the 22 subsequent year* down to
the preen th it policy of conciliation to the Roman
catholies-1 believe to have been a wise one, and I am not
disposed to depart one whit from that policy. (Hear, hear.)
But I 410 believe that this ageTession has been part and
parcel of a great plan which hasbeen concocted against the
civil and re...mime. liberties gif every country in Europe.
((Choirs) I believe that, whether this government had
been favourable or unfavourable to the Roman catholic., in
the present eircumstanels of the world, the attempt would
have been made, and I feel that we are more secure in re-
sisting that aggression breause I can say that nothing
in the euuduct of the not moment to which I belong,
Or it, that of its imw, diate predecessor, tend+, in
any way, to make us justly liable to censure. The
hon. suemlem fur Dublin sail that we have proposed •
bill to prevent the him R roan catholic bishops from takiug
their titles ; that. they have a right to take thee, titles, and
that we propose to prohibit them. But it is tog the ease. 1
certainly believe it to he the ease that the Roman cathodic
bishops in their relations with their clergy assume the titles
of some saes which are likewise the Arcs unit dioceses of the
prelate. of the protestant Edablished Church ? If that he the
there is an iiet which was lensed in the 10th year of
George the Fourth, which says that "if any person other
than the persons having authority thereto shall assume thy
title of arelsitishop of any urchhislioprie, or dean of any
di aver)', of England or 'lreland, he shall fur every st.th
otfeuce forfeit and pay the sum of 100/." (Hear, hear.)
Thete is an act whirls applies to Ireland, and which was
passed years hack, awl yet the hon. member for Doh:iii,
and most of the lion. member, who speak front that side of
the house, talk ILN if this measure was introduced for the
Bret time, and as if they had never heard of it before.
(Dear, hear.) Why, they have been living under it ever
since Ise% and when it was pawed they said they were mint
grateful fur it. (CM era and laughter.) But now it ap-
pears to them as a bill of penalties such as was tweet heard
of before. (Chia cs) What we wish to meet, an I what we
are bound to attempt to inect, is the assumption of title.,
and the assumptom of power to govern certain ili.triets in
England, in conospienee of a certain rescript issued by the
rope. (Cheers.) If it lied not been for that reseript I
should have has en pea. rola satisfied with the law us it stood.
I do not think tlmt doultt ful questions with respect to the
Archbishop of Tii sin and the bishopric of (railway would
been at all qu. -tiers for leqislation. I believe that the law
and the administration of the law might have been safely
Jett in the mother lit which it has been lift since the year
DM. It is this ;wore wion upon England—this attempt to
assume titles and a real government of England—aa as-
sumption which all writers of authority declare to he au act
of temporal authority which camsot he denied —it is this
act which, as it seemed to me, rendered legislation neces-
sary. (Loud cheer...) I wish to explain the reason why I
think the house cannot admit the a-gumption of the hon.
and learned gentleman the member fur Dormoshire that
here is a proposition before them, and they must either
Mien it or deny it. It is not necessary either to affirm or
deny that proposition. (War.) If they choose to act in
conformity w ith their former vote they will go into the con-
sideration of this hill—they will discus. its clauses, they will
examine its pnwisions- auol I wiah by no nouns to anticipate
their decision. (Hear, hear.) But if, on the contrary,
they wish to take this opportunity of coming to a
vote ..r censare 4•11 the government let thorn take this
opportunity if th •y- will, but this I will say, they
are under nu obligation to do so in con.equence of
the introduction Or the hon. gentleman'. motion. If
they chums, to take that ,curse undoubtedly it is in their
power to do so, hot I don't think it is surh a course as the
people. of England C‘llt.rt. lehurr..) I think they
expect that wbateser may be our party tlitferene a the pro-
ceeding wills this bill is not • proper occasion for exhibiting
those diffivene •••—(loud cheers)—but that we should rather
turn our attention t., the AMIII/1 reading of the bill, and to
devise. such a measure us may be a security to the crown,
and ...rarity to the country. Whether or not the present
provi.ion is -uttlei, it is another question ; but this we ran
say, we have lute...laced such a ITIC3•IITV a+ we think will
b 47 sufficient for the purpose ; and I will not go any further
than the neressitig s of the raw require, because I wiult
while repelling ao zres.ion to maintain that religious liberty
which I have al eats upheld. (Loud and enthusiastic cheer-
ing which lasted toe ...no. time.)
Mr. DISRAELI said the noble lord had accurately
placed before th.• house the form under which the quest ion
would be put before them. The noble lord hod said there
was uo neoteoity to sow upon the amendment pmposeil by
the lima mother for Stalfonl, mid that statement was one
the aecur.w) of which could not be disputed. The omelet-
nu lit contained a very important statement, and one which
he (Mr. Disraeli) hail irtually made himself time after
time iu that house during the diacussi.m--(cheers)--• state-
ment which, me nthe. an., when the act of the Pope oc-
curred, he had expressed in a letter to his constituents
(('tters.) When, then, au hon. gentleman not connected
with himself or torn with the hon. friends with whom he
(Mr. Disraeli) hail the honour to art iiimn p lineal 1111.1.-
Clans had placed that statement hefore them, if he (Mr.
Di.r.ie li) were to take advantage, a+ hail hen n suggested by
tht made loth, of the plea of the forms of the house
nod looisl gis ing Mil opinion open the questim,
Ora, holm!. he sl 141 be taking a •• mean" and
shabby" touts, (•fremendous cheers) :Co. The
house had hail the question placed before it, and he
tmuld not avoid ;6.414 all opinion upon the subject. (Loud
cheer.) Ile mold not shrink from (11pr...inn upon this
oes coon the ....Union which hr hail expressed donna the
sesse.n• and of which, after giving evert attention to the ar-
guments which he had heard, and to this statement of the
government, he was 1101110 to say he could not, on hi. con-
Seiellte, *AV any nason to doubt the accuracy. (bind
cheer.) 'Vas it true Of WOO it nut that the aggression had
hem o itrouragell by the. condurt and declarations of her
Maje.t)'s government ? (('heers ) W... it a fog or was it
not that the)' haul heard the minister of the crown himself
hue opinion that there
iu that house
Was no harm in Roman catholic Inshore assuming
territorial titles in the realm of England (Loud chtsos.)
Was that a Lot or was it nut, lingering in the experience of
every member of this house and still in the throbbing
memory of the country ? (('hem..) Was it it fact or was
it not. that a Sccrelary of State in another place expressisl
hi, h.q.• that the Roman catholic bishops of the Coiled
Kingdom should take their seats as peen of parliament in
the House 4.f herd,? (Great cheering.) Was that a fact
or was it not ? (Chem.). Was it a circunotance of %bleb
there was any doubt ? L. it out ran opiaion which still
echoed in the indignant ears of the people of England ?
treat cheering.) Was it a fact or was it not,
ta awiab, a the government and of the cabinet was
sent as a plenipotentiary into Italy, and frequently held ca.
souraging conversations with his Holiness ? ((sheers.) Was'
it a fact. or was it not, that. influenced by his counsel, and
animated by his presence. the Pope kimoif condescendingly
intimated to ben that he was shout to interfere with the
domestic concern of this country? (land chore.) Ilia
llolinessimid to the noble lord, °lien• is something which
touches Eugland," and he (Mr. Disraeli) rem onbered at
the time expressing his surprise that the plenipotentiary
did not inquire about it. (" Hear," and laughter.) Was
it a fart—
Lord J. RUSSELL—I stated that it was true—(bud
cheers, which drowned the remainder of the sentenee) --a
statement had been mule on the other side by those who
Sr..- adversaries of the Pope that much had passed fro.
the Pope, but Lord 3huto has denied that he heard it.
(Loud cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—Wa. it a fact —(a laugh)—or was it
not• that the Viceroy of lechuol was in dire. t comminira-
tion with the Pope ?—(loud cheers)—that he asked his
counsel, and expressed hie reverence for his character?
(Lou.! cheers) If this were en, hr (Mr. Disraeli) asked
the house whether the' conduct of the. Pope might not
fairly be astrilsol to, m it hail been ilescrilf.t in the amend-
ment, the conduet of the minister. ? (Load cheers) He
thought that nothing could he more salutary than that they
should also liaw this amendment.
Mr. ROEBUCK admitted the fact that the conduct of
the government had givens countenance to the act of the
Pope ; but he- would not call that act an :izgression, and of
the ministerial prueeedings which encouraged it he fully
approved. lie disliked the bill itself, and should adopt
every direct means of getting rid of it.
Mr. DEEDES and sir f. D. At. LAND briefly opposed
the resolution of Mr. Urquhart.
The house then divided—

Fur the resolution
Aganut it 2NO

Majority for government
Th. announcement of the division was received with loud
cheers by the ministerialists.
Lord RUSSELL stated that h. would take the bill as
the first order of the day on Monday next.
It ,4a. then agreed thit the house at its rising du adjourn
to Monday.
SEATS IN rARLIAMENT.
1• (r. obtained leave to bring in a bill t. make
property situate in any colony or paisession of her Majesty
qual.ideation for a seat in parliament.
Tut.: COMMITTEE ON 'flit KAFFIR W.M.
Mr. KEOGH moved, pursuant to notice. that the com-
mittee on Kaffir tribes do consist of 17 members ; that Mr.
Reynolds, Mr. Sadleir, and Colonel Dunne be aildisl to the
eutumittv.
Sir G. GREY object d. His noble friend (Lord John
'lumen) had 'mated that he would consent to an addi-
tion of three names of Irish members, and these 11.1011 es
would appear on the votes ou Monday. Ile therefore
asked the house to suspend its decision in the matter until
Monday.
Sir D. HALL objected distinctly to the appointment of
Mr. Reynolds on the committee. That hon. member was
not sufficiently impartial.
After a few words from Mr. REYNOLDS,
Mr. J. WILLIAMS observed that on this committee