The Express.
London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 6, 1853.

in doing what has been done in the ease.
Now, sir, my bon. friend has made merry as to the quo-
ties that arose before the magistrate. whether or not men-
, powder be gunpowder, and the gustiest having now been
decided by competent authority, I may be allowed to say
that I never heard such a miserable quibble as that by
which it was attempted to be proved that the article seised
was not gunpowder, and I think, therefore, the magistrate
was quite correct in the decisioa be came to. Then, with
regard to the illegal possession of the rockets, my hon.
friend asks me whether it is intended by the government to
proceed with the prosecution, and in answer to that ques-
tion, I have no hesitation in saying that we have no desire
to press hardly, or in any way whatever, upon Mr. Hale—
(hear, hear)—and I have no hesitation also in saying, in
answer to my bon. friend's last question, that the evidence
which was taken in the police.court, or any evidence which
we have, does not bear out or justify any proceedings
being instituted against any other person British or foreign,
except Mr. Hale. (Loud cheers.) Then with regard to
the case as spinet Mr. Hale, let the house remember that
as the matter stands the act under which Mr. Hale was pro-
ceeded against prohibits any person from making, using, or
selling rockets salsa with the consent of the Ordnance,
unless such meow belong to the Artillery or any Artil-
lery company, or others having authority to make rockets
for the purposes of war; and the act premed two methods
of proceeding for infringing that act: one by summary
process and conviction before a magistrate, the other by
indictment and trial before a court and jury. The first
course being the simplest. shortest, and least troublesome,
it was adopted. The case was opened before the magis-
trate, the evidence against Mr. Hale was stated, but the
magistrate stopped the proceedings, saying that he thought
the ease was one which ought to be referred to another tri-
bunal, to be tried by a jury. Now he held as a general
rule that it was unbecoming the government, and would be
setting a bad precedent, If, having commenced a prosecution
against any individual, they were to stop the proceedings
before the case came on for trial. Such a system would be
liable to great abuse, and it would be easy to imagine un-
der it that proceedings might be commenced without any
justifiable cause, and for the mere purpose of annoying
individuals, and by stopping the prosecution before going
to trial they would deprive the parties. accused of the
means of defending themselves and clearing their charac-
ters. (Hear, bear.) The person proceeded against in that
way would have a case against the government for a ma-
licious prosecution ; for undoubtedly he had ague for an
evil sustained. But if that were the rule generally speak-
ing, and upon abstract principles, it applied more strongly
in the present mos. For what would be said it this prose-
cution were now abandoned ? It would be said that the
government began a proceeding before a magistrate by
summary process—that it was stopped when their
case was stated, the party accused having no opportunity
of saying anything in his defence. The case is sent to a
jury, but what do the government do then ? They are
afraid to stand on their case, and retire from the prosecu-
tion—they feel satisfied that the case will not bear sifting
before • jury, and so they stop the proceeding in order to
deprive the individual of the opportunity of vindicating hie
character. I am therefore advised that it would not be an
oppression as a general rule, and certainly not in this par-
ticular case, that after the case has been referred by the
magistrate for she decision of a competent tribunal the pro-
ceedings should be stopped until that decision has been
taken. At the same time, I have no hesitation in saying
that nothing can be further from the wish or the intention
of the government than to press hardly upon Mr. Hale—
we shall be perfectly satisfied to have a decision of a compe-
tent court on the law of the case, and, that obtained, I hope
Mr. Hale will not suffer in any degree from the case having
been pushed to that extent. (Heal.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE.—I wish to say a word in explana-
tion. The noble lord seems to think I charged him with
being the tool and the instrument of Austria. I did no
such thing. I merely quoted the words of the Times.
The Times praises the noble lord fur being pro-Austrian.
Now, so far from that being my opinion, I always under-
stood that to the noble lord M. Kossuth was indebted for his
life and his liberty, and I believe that understanding is not
erroneous. (Cheers.) But, sir, I would ask are we to in-
fer that this prosecution is conducted for the benefit and
gratification of Mr. Hale, for the statement of the noble
lord comes to that ? (Hear, hear.) If this be the only ob-
ject of the noble lord, I believe I am in a position to say
that Ur. Hale will not ceosider it to his benefit at all to
be put to a considerable expense in defending himself against
a preffeution, for the purpose of assisting the noble lord to
ascertain what the state of the law is. (" Hear," and a laugh.)
Lord D. STUART—I am glad to hear the noble lord
admit that there is nothing in the evidence at the Home-
office or elsewhere to implicate anybody in these proceed-
ings but Mr. Hale ; and it follows, therefore, that all the
statements about M. Kossuth abusing our hospitality b
entering into conspiracies to levy war against a country with
which we are en terms of amity, have turned out to be
baseless and unfounded calumnies. (Hear.) We are told that
large stores of ammunition and warlike st gyres were discovered
in a house in the occupation of M. Kossuth, and the whole
world was called upon to join in execration of the man
who, having received our hospitality, end hoeing been de-
livered from the dangers to which he was exposed, mainly
by the interposition of the British government, could so
disgrace himself. And now it turns out that all this was
a vile calumny, originating in the imagination of some
persons animated by rancour against M. Kossuth,. and who
had shown themselves always to be in the interest of
Austria and Russia, and had persecuted M. Kossuth by all
the means in their power for having opposed those govern-
ments while defending the constitution of his own couatry.
Every means were taken by the writers to whom I allude to
hold up M. Kossuth to public execration, and in the present
instance, instead of waiting to see the result of the judicial
proceedings which it might be supposed would be instituted
by the government, they, pursuing him in their malignant
spite, held him up before the world as a conspirator, and
condemned him unheard. For the purpose of holding him
up to public detestation, they assumed that he was guilty;
and referring to a place where he was but lately welcomed
on his release from captivity—that room where the muni-
' cipal body of London usually assemble—the y insultingly
pointed out "that Guildhall was not far from the Old
Bailey." (Hear, hear.) 1 cannot any anything of my own
knowledge of what may 'happen. but I should not
wonder much, after the statements we have heard
so completely exculpatory of M. Kossuth from those vile
accusations, if some steps were taken to demonstrate to the
writers of such calumnies that if Guildhall is not far from
the Old Bailey, there is another place called Priatinghousir
square which is still
Mr. BRIGHT—It would appear from the noble noble
lord's statement that in the very undignified attempt in
which he had been engaged to discover a mare's nest, he
has signally failed. (Hear, hear.) I agreirwith the hon.
member for Finsbury as to the extreme paltriness—l should
say shabbiness which has characterised the whole of this
prosecution against Mr. Hale—that the cue as regards M.
Kossuth is not of the same character, and cannot be so re-
garded by the house. In the one case It was a mischievous
police business, which turns out to be nothing—and though
it has occasioned all this temporary annoyance and expense
to Mr. Hale, for which I am sorry, it is altogether of a
different character to that which has induced me on
one or two former occasions to advert to this subject
The noble lord now says that be has no evidence
on which to found any charge against any person except
Mr. Hale, and as to that transaction, he intimates he would
be glad to get out of the mess he has been led into, but
that he thinks it would not be dignified for the govern-
ment, after commencing a prosecution, to abandon it. But
with regard to the other case, the noble lord knows per-
fectly well the mischievous effect the statement in the
Times newspaper and the statement he himself made in
this house on a previous evening was calculated to produce.
I do not charge the noble lord with having brought an ac-
cusation on the statement in the Times, but the noble lord
has on each occasion when the subject was brought forward
here, studiously avoided saying anything that could be
quoted as clearing the character of M. Kossuth, and has
left the statements in the Times to have their effect on the
world, even when he had the power in this house to have
cleared the character of M. Koesuth—if, as I believe he bad,
then all the knowledge be has now. (Hear.) The Ti....
has been referred to, as it necessarily must be, in speaking
of this transaction, and I will venture to make an obeerva-
tin on the Tines. The Times newspaper is a great power
in a mask—we do not see the person who writes the articles
—there is not a man in England calling himself a gentle-
man who would dare to have mat his signature
to the article which has been referred to. (Cheers.)
There is a gentleman—a member of this house
—he is not present, I dare say, but if he
were, would say what I am about to ay now—
that he direst not—l am speaking of a gentleman intimately
connected with the paper—that he &west not put his sig-
nature to the article in which these charges were conveyed
against M. Kossuth. (Hear, hear.) And I can tell the
Timer that it was precisely conduct like this, by which
scandalousand lying charges were brought against honour-
able men that the press of Franco lost all character with
' the French people, and that induced the people of Faris
during the republic to look with disregard—almost with
, pleasure—when one after the other the newspapers were
brought under penalties of the law, and which induced them
. to look on without discontent when newspaper writers were
. compelled to attach their signatures to every article they
I wrote, and when, lastly, almost all the newspapers were
suppressed. (Hoar.) Now, in the Times of this
morning—l am not particularly thin-skinned, and
I refer to the matter only as an illustration of
the kind of abuse in which it indulges. The
Times newspaper, of this morning, says that 1 had the
honesty not to appear with the deputation before Lord
Clarendon yesterday, in reference to the proposed introduc-
tion of the arbitration clause into the treaty with the
United States, it being known that the United States'
government are anxious for such a clause. They say it is
well I had the honesty not to go there, for I had recently
been defending the manufacture of war rockets and war-
like stores. Now it is not necessary for me to clear myself,
but if Mr. —, I won't name him, I don't know that I
know him, but the person who wrote this article ; I say, if
he came before the public, if he be a man calling himself a
, gentleman, and walked about the streets, do you think he
would ever have dared to write that article ? No.")
Then, I say, it is cowardly that such statements should
, be made—(hear, hear)—and it is doubly infamous, when
they were made for the purpose of undermining and des-
troying the character of a man sufficiently under misfor-
i tune, au cells from his country, trusted by millions of his
countrymen, who aro yet buoyed up with the hope that
he will be one day able to do something for the deliverauce
of his country. (Cheers.) I say, it is infamous
, for any organ of the press to attack a man in this way, and
, thus to attempt to destroy his character, hi, reputation.
and his influence. (Loud cheers.) The noble lord has
admitted there is no charge against M. Kossuth.
Lord PALMERSTON—Or any other person.
Mr. BRIGHT—Or any other person, except Mr. Hale.
The noble lord stated the other night, that as long as he
had been connected with the Home•office, some four months,

the 'emetic* of open* letters had ant beat pesorted to.
(Hest, hear.) Bat another point bad been &shorted to,
that was the system of espionage. On the 7th of Fe%reary,
1850, the noble iord. in speaking of the detention of the
Hungarians in Tukey, said, " The Turkish government
undertook to remove them to a distance from the Austrian
teritories, and there detain them under that description of
observation of which, happily, no English word conveys the
meaning—under assreseillance for a certain limited time."
(Choate.) What I want to ktow of the noble lord new is
this, and if he will give the same answer as ho has given
on the other matter I hope never to have occasion to trouble
him on this subject spin. What I want to know is—is
it true that some policeman, or some person acting as a
policeman, had charge to watch M. Kossuth, and report on
whatsoever they might observe about M. Kosauth's house ?
I want to ask the noble lord whether that be so, and if so,
whether this has been done by the authority of the Home-
office, and whether the expense of this police espionage is
defrayed by the state, or out of any metropolitan rate, or by
the Austrian government, or by the Austrian embassy?
(" Hear," and cheers.) What I desire is, that
the noble lord should clear the matter up. I
believe these proceedings are entirely without justification,
and what has been stated in the papers lately is creating an
unpleasant feeling in the public mind in regard to the go.
vernment which it would be well to remove. (Hear, hear.)
The feeling of the public caused by these proceedings is
that the government is not open and above board, as it was
supposed they were, and that with all our bosstsof freedom,
and the hospitality we profess to afford, we are doing here
precisely what, is done in many parts of the Continent of
Europe. (Hear, hear )
Mr. OT WAY regretted that the noble lord had not,when
the subject was brought under discussion before, taken the
same course he had to-night, instead of attempting to jus-
tify the proceedings of the police in setting spies on the
movemeutsof 111. Kossuth, and twitting the hon. member
for Manchester for not knowing that it was the duty of the
Home Secretary to take the steps complained of in regard
to foreign refugees. (" No, no," from Lord Palmoratoe,)
He had certainly understood the noble lord to say that if
not only any foreigner, but any Englishman, was sus-
pectedo f being engaged in practices hostile to any foreign
country with which we were on terms of amity, the police
were justified in dogging his footsteps and setting spies on
all his actions. That was not always the opinion of the
noble lord, for it was not very long since the
noble lord received • deputation from Isling-
ton, and the answer he gave excited so much
ill-feeling on the part of his colleagues, that he was obliged
to retire from the imbinet, and for the noble lend now to turn
rousd,and speak of B. Kossuth and tho other refugeeein the
tone he did the ether day, was what could scarcely have
been expected by those whohad been led by the noble lord's
previous conduct to respect him and his policy. It might be
satisfactory if the Attorney-General would enlighten the
house ea to whether such proceedings as had taken place in
M. Koesuth's case really were in accordance with the con-
stitution of the country.
Lord PALMERSTON—The hon. member entirely mis-
understood what I said on the occasion referred to. My ob-
servations applied to what ! considered to be an endeavour
on the part of the hon. member fur Manchester to extract
from me my opinion as to the probable or possible result of
certain legal proceedings still undecided. (Hear, hear.) I
understood the hon. gentleman to ask me what I thought
would be the result of those proceedings on the character of
M. Kossuth, and the answer I gave was that it would be a
very unconstitutional thing for me to give any answer to
such a question. With regard to the question whether the
expense incurred by the employment of the police was paid
by the Austrian government or by this country, my answer is
the expellees of maintaining the police, whatever they may
be—the burden is entirely borne by this country. What I
meant to say on the occasion to which the hon. member has
referred in reference to surveillance was that what the
French understand by surveillance is a auto of things not
known in this country. The state of surveillance, where it
exists, is that a person suspected is not allowed to go beyond
certain limits, and is constantly watched by the police to
see that he does not go beyond them. Here, however, the
duty of the police is to see that the law is obeyed, and if
they have ;reason to think that any person is engaged in
any proceeding contrary to law, as they probably thought
they had in this case, it is their duty to take steps to inform
the government. And if the police had reason to think that
M. Kossuth or anybody else was engaged in proceedings
contrary to law it was their duty to take stops to ascertain
whether there was any grounds fur their suspicion.
Mr. BRIGHT—The noble lord has made a statement
which everybody knows ; but I would ask the noble lord
this question, whether he, or any person in his office,
has given directions to any police magistrate, commissioner
of police, or other official, to set policemen to watch the
house and the proceeding of M. Kossuth ?
Lord PALMERSTON—I have given no special direc-
tions in regard to M. Kossuth. It is a general duty of the
police, if they have reason to think that H. Kossuth, or
anybody else—as probably they did in this case, as to the
rockets in question—is engaged in proceedings which are
punishable by law, to ascertain the fact, in order that the
charge may 'be substantiated or abandoned.
Mr. COBDEN—I wish to ask the noble lord a ques-
tion—

The SPEAKER—I must remind the hon. member and
the house that the noble lord has already spoken twice en
the motion before the house, and is not entitled to speak
again. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FAGAN inquired when any measure on the subject
of ministers money would be brought forward.
Sir J. YOUNG said the subject had been for some time
under consideration, sad the draft of this bill was in course
of preparation. He could not at present fix a day for intro-
ducing it, as he should have to make a preliminary state-
ment , but he would avail himself of the first open day for
the putout*.
Mr. COBDEN—I suppose, sir, you are the authority
without appeal on all points of order, but if it be the rule
of the house that the Minister for the Home Department
an only be allowed to answer one question on such an occa-
sion and on such a subject as we have been discussing, I
think it would be well to consider whether it might not be
well to relax it in order to promote the despatch of business.
If, however, the noble lord. the Home Secretary, cannot an-
swer the question I wish to put, probably the noble lord the
member for London (Lord J. Russell) can. I wish to im-
press upon the house that we are not here dealing with the
ordinary case of an ordinary person. We are dealing with
a man who was long engaged in maintaining in his own
country the legality of the constitution of that country, and
' he was supported by the whole body, not of the poorer
classes merely, but of the whole of the aristocracy. I say
that when such • man comes to this country, having held
that distinguished poet of honour, his case is not
that of an ordinary refugee, but it is that of a
man placed under the safeguard of this country,
the incidents of whose life are minutely watched by the
world, and will be as minutely recorded in the history of
the times—and as he is treated by us will honour or dis-
credit attach to us in reference to him. (Hear, hear )
When I first read of this matter, and when I first read
the statement in the MOOS, I thought it my duty to call
on M. Kossuth and ask him if then was any foundation
for that statement, and he gave me hie word as a man of
honour that he had no more concern with the
transactions referred to by_ the writer in that paper
than had the Speaker of the House of Commons. (Hear,
hear.) It was true, he said, he had recommended a foreign
refugee (one who had not done him much credit)—(hear)—
to Mr. Hale for employment, but he had no connexion with
Mr. Hale, or with the manufacture carried on by him. Ile
was invited to call en Mr. Hale to go over his factory as I
might have been, and as I have been invited to go over Mr.
Colt's factory; and I might as well be charged with being
connected with Mr. Colt on that ground, as M. Kossuth
was charged with being connected with Mr. Hale. And
with regard to recommending a man for employment,
M. Kossuth has numerous unfortunate refugees constantly
calling upon him to aid them in obtaining employment,
and I am speaking within the mark when I say I have had
at least a dozen applications from M. Kossuth to assist his
countrymen is that way. This is the whole basis of the
charge. Some prying individual found that a Hungarian
was working at Mr. Hale's, and because M. Kossuth
recommended him he connected that gentleman with
the rocket manufacture carried on by Mr. Hale.
Now, I think it would not have been below the
dignity of the Home Secretary, if he had given the oppor-
tunity to M. Kossuth to clear himself. (Hear, hear.) I'do
not think the Ex-Governor of Hungary is so far below the
dignity of the Home Secretary of England as to make such
a course impossible. (Hear, hear.) And if the noble lord
had done so, if instead of sending policemen to watch M.
Koesuth's house and dog him about, he had taken means
to allow that gentlemen to explain, and if the noble lord
had thus obtained, as he would have done, M. Kossuth's
word of honour that he had no connexion with anything of
the kind charged against him, that would have been
sufficient —for he apprehended IL Kossuth was
as much entitled to credence as any member of
the Orleans family visiting our Court. (Loud cheering.)
I make no distinctions, and as regaris M. Keisuth I think
he is as much entitled to respect and honour as any mem-
ber of the Orleans family, who are habitually received at
Windsor. (Hear, hear.) I make no complaint of the hos-
pitality that is shown to the Orleans family ; but I say that
it would be disgraceful to any man in this country and
more especially to any member of this house, if he did not
vindicate the right to hospitality of this country, on behalf
of those who carry with them the goodwill of the mass of
their own countrymen, which is the case with lit. Kossuth,
and if any one is allowed to dog the steps of illustrious
refugees, and it is found out, we are bound to visit it with
our reprobation, and public opinion will do the same.
(Hear, hear.) I have seen M. Kossuth, and have advised
with him. 1 told him—" You live under the same law as
I du, but if you ask me what the law of England
is I cannot tell you, for at any moment some
old law may be exhumed for a particular occa-
sion, as has been done now ; " and I advised
him to put himself under the guidance of some shrewd
lawyer. Ho said that if he knew what the law was, he
would take care not to violate it. I believe he has placed
himself under the advice of a shrewd lawyer, and I do not
believe he will be caught violating the law of the country,
for which he has too much respect. The question I want to
put to the noble lord is, whether nay communication has
been made to the magistrates, or the police authorities,
with reference to any proceedings for watching the house of
M. Louis Kossuth. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—Before I answer the question which
the hon. gentleman has put, I must advert to the former
part of his speech, because it is of great importance that we
should have some notion as to what is the policy of this
country towards these and other refugees; tied I quite
agree with the hon. gentleman when he says that we ought
to apply the same rule to all refugees, and I care little what
mvy be their rank or station. It may be a prince of high
lineage who maintains extreme doctrine, with regard to ab-
solute monarchy, or it may be it person of humble station
who holds extreme notions with regard to republican insti-
tutions; I care not which it may be, the rule ought to be

this sum (Rear, bleu.) Then what is
it
I so mot very °hectare in its general principle.
founded in the first plies on the law of England, and In 4
second place it is founde2 on that law in its relation to M.
great international law which governs the intercourse of
nations. The law of England allows refugees, front what-
ever cause they may have suffered, or by whatever pm"
they may have been proscribed, to some to this country awl
live undisturbed. This is the general law, and M accord
anee with that law many persons of various ranks have oi
late years taken refuge here; and that honourable demo,.
tion of this country is not owing to any minister of tee
present day, but it is the ancient law of this country mai
any one can find refuge here, and I will never deport
from that law of just and equal hospitality. But if oe
the one hand that is clearly the law, on the other hand a
can as little be doubted that refugees who receive our hoe
pitality, and who resins in safety under the shadow clour
laws, so long as they aro in safety ought not to abuse that
hospitality by levying war against any other country, woe.
it be a republic or a monarchy, which is at peace with this
country. It has been paid, with respect to the individual in
question, that M. Kossuth was a person of illustrious rank,
who was governor of Hungary. and who had endeavoured
to maintain the ancient constitution of that country. 1 win
not enter into any controversy on that subject; but I may
say that there are some who assert that there are two
opinions on that point. It is thought by some persons that
lie fought on behalf of the cause of Hungary, and that he
did all that a patriot could to maintain her ancient comb-
tution. But there are ethers who think that, from want
of judgment and imprudence, ho had damaged the clue
racter of the constitution of that country, and brought her
into collision with Austria, and so was the author of the
calamities which had befallen her. There are those two
opinion. entertained, and it is not for me to say which is
the right one. However, M. Kossuth comes to this country
and race' ur hospitality ; he comes not like a person
who was unknown, but as ono who came with a liberty
which he had obtained chiefly through the exertions of my
noble friend when secretary for foreign affairs; who,
speaking in the name of England, urged on Turkey to per-
severe in the hospitality which to her honour she had
afforded to those exiles, and even offered the support of the
arms of this country to Turkey if oho should be attacked
while performing the duties of hospitality ; and, finally, he
urged on Turkey not to continue the confinement of M.
Kossuth, but to allow him to some to this country. I say,
then, if any one ought to be bound not only by the general
law of this country, which breathes such a spirit of
hospitality, but by peculiar ties of gratitude to
the government, N. Kossuth is bound to obey the
laws of this country, and not to do anything which may in.
volve her in any cause of quarrel with any =boa.
The hon. gentleman says that M. Kossuth has scrupulously
obeyed the laws which he found to be in force, and has
lived without giving any cause of *theme to those who ad-
minister them. The hon. gentleman is well acquainted
with XL Kossuth, and the fact may be as he has stated it.
At the same time I cannot wonder that suspicions should
be aroused of a contrary nature; for we cannot Mitre.
collect that we have seen in the newspaper to which the
hon. gentleman has referred a letter or proclamation ad-
dressed by M. Kossuth to the subjects of a foreign sovereign,
calling on them to rise against that sovereign, and urging
his soldiers to leave their colours and engage in hostility of
the most deadly kind against that state, and that proclama-
tion was published in connection with the insurrection at
Milan. It has been stated on behelf of K. Kossuth that
he bad not authorised its publication, and that changes
had been made in it. But it is certain that when he was
at Kutayah he gave a paper of this kind to a person, thus
pointing out the duty of insurrection to the subjects of
Austria. I say that it was an imprudent and unjustihabls
act in him, while residing in a foreign country, to give a
paper to any one to be used for the purposes of insurrection.
Not only this, we have seen it lately avowed by M. Kossuth
that it is his purpose to make war on sovereigns against
whose tyranny and whose rule he protests, and who are on
terms of amity with this country ; and when we add to this
that which has been stated by the hon. member for the
West Riding—namely, that several Hungarians connected
with AL Kossuth were employed in the manufacture of
rockets for the purposes of war—l say that when all these
circumstances are put together, it is not to be wondered at
that the police should suspect that he bad some intention of
levying war against a foreign sovereign. With regard to
the question asked by the hon. gentleman of my noble friend
all that I can state is, that the Commissioners of Police
from time to time make reports of circumstances which
come to their knowledge, whether affecting DI. Kossuth or
any other person, which induce them to believe that any
crime is meditated. Ido not think it right for me to say
more than this, fur my noble friend has said that there is no
evidence on which an indictment could be founded against
any person but Mr. Hale. But I shall always maintain,
that while on the ono hand we aro bound to extend our
hospitality to those persons, on the other hand we are bound
by our obligations to foreign states not to allow persons re-
siding in this country to be guilty of that which my right
hon. friend the member for Morpeth, when he was Hems
Secretary, declared to be a crime against the law of this
country—that is,the levying war against foreigu states. I wish
to say a few words more with regard to a statement which has
been made, that all these proceedings arose in consequence
of communications received from the government of Aus-
tria. The nature of the communications which have been
made te us by the government of Austria I will state in
general terms. Nothing in the nature of a demand or spe-
cific requirement has been made by the government of Aus-
tria to the government ef this country. On the Contrary,
the government of Austria has repeatedly stated that they
asked nothing, and wished it to be understood that no de-
mand was made by them ; but they have stated that they
felt aggrieved by proceedings which were carried on here,
but that it was for the government of England, on which
they placed perfect reliance., to take such measures as they
should think fit with regard to them. It was not unnatural,
when insurrection was going on, that they should reeresent
that their government was disturbed, and liable to attacks
from various quarters, and that sometimes attempts at asses-
siltation were made by men connected with persons
who are attempting to overthrow the government of the
country; and we know that many of those who are con-
nected with those proceedings are in England. I do not
say that these complaints are justified, but it is the bounden
duty of the government, while they say we will not change
our law, and we will allow all persons to come to and re-
' main in this country undisturbed, to see that the laws of
this country, and our international relations, are not
violated. (Hear, hear.)
Sir .1. WALMSLEY said he rejoiced that the noble lord,
the Secretary for the Home Department had stated, and
that the noble lord, the member tbr London, had con-
firmed that statement, that there was no accusation against
the illustrious exile in question. But the noble
lord had made another statement, blaming M.
Kossuth for a proclamation which he had written and
issued in this country. So far from that being the ease,
that proclamation was written at Kutayab and not in this
country, and therefore so far M. Kossuth was free from the
accusation of the noble lord. But the most serious part of
this matter—and the question u hich had been put with re-
gard to it had not been answered yet—was the employment
of spies as had been said to dog the footsteps not only of
this illustrious exile, but of all persons who called on him
or inquired after him. The question did not even rest
there, for if the statements which had been made were to
be believed persons were sent into the house of M. Kossuth
to assist in removing his goods and to spy what they could
find out. They must have been sent by some one—Who
was that person ? If they were not sent by the noble lord
they must have been sent 'by the police. This was a matter
that ought to be inquired into, and if no one else would do
se he (Sir J. Walmsley) would move for a committee of
inquiry, in order te ascertain whether it wet the practice of
the police to watch the houses of any person without any
justification for doing so. The government would have
done much better to have abandoned the charge against
Mr. Hale, and not have revived en obsolete law against a
poor man who had been ruined. The best thing to be. done
was to drop all further proceedings ; for he believed awes
the duty of the government to abandon the proceedings
against Mr, Hale under a law which was paned &hundred
years age.
The subject then dropped.
WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE.—THE

BUDGET.-- -
The house then went into Committee of Ways and Meals,
Mr. Boorman in the chair.

On the motion for the imposition of the income tax to
all property in the United Kingdom,
Mr. LAWLESS rosy to move as an amendment that the
words " Great Britain" be substituted for " United King-
dom." He said he need hardly observe that the extension
of the income tax to Ireland had caused considerable ex-
citement in that country, which would not be allayed till
the question was finally discussed, and settled in a more
advantageous manner to the interests of Ireland than it had
yet been. Ile, however, thought the budget a real POOr
man's budget, and regarding it as an English question, he
votod against the motion of tho member for Hertfordshire.
He was quite in the hands of the body of the
Irish members ; and would modify his emcee-
meet if they pleased ISO as to declare that the
tax ought at least not to be imposed until two or
three more years had passed, in which time the country
might have fully recovered from the recent social shocks.
Col. DUNNE thought that if the hon. member were sin-
cere in the views he had expressed he would have taken
care to vote for the amendment of the hon. baronet (Sir E.
Lytton) on Monday night. The hon. and learned member
for Cork (Serjeaut Murphy) had said that the Irish weat-
hers must either accept the income tax or have a new go-
vernment, and that, taking that view, the present govern-
ment was worth the annuity. He . (Col. Dunne) could not
agree that the members of the government were worth
22,0001. a head. (Laughter.)
Mr. V. SCULLY said the hon. and gallant colonel had
formerly voted fur an income tax for Ireland on Mr.
Blaekall's motion.
Col. DUNNE was understood to deny that he had so
voted.
Mr. V. SCULLY said he took it from Hansard, hut of
course the fun. and gallant member knew best. Ile op-
posed the income tax principally on account of its inquisitorial
character. It that were done away with he should not 50
much mind it; but he did not pledge himself not to com-
bine with the people in England who were of the same mode
of thinking for the purpose of adopting any course of legiti-
mate agitation that might seem likely to remove thetas. In-
deed one hon. member had said he should vote for the ex-
tension of the tax to that country, because ko knew that
the Irish were such a troublesome set that it would the
sooner lead to its downfall. (Laughter.) Ile believed it
was the motion on the subject of the consolidated annuities
which had led to the imposition of the income tax. The
spectacle of all the Irish members, with hardly an excep-
tion, voting on the same side must have astonished the mi-
nister of finance, and led him to the conviction that they
(the consolidated annuities) mutt be removed in some way
and hence the proposal with reference to the income tax.
Well, he was convinced that that tax was inevitable, ;sr,

„anical phrase, "Venit summit et inelochibile tempus”
s lough)—and therefore he should content himself by
sresin4 to make the best terms possible under the Wein:m-
eaner,
Mr. ti. Fa said he unwillingly took part in the de-
t dia not like • aLaot battle. (Hear, hear.) It
Val en:y because he would not emit any opportunity of re-
s.st.ng en income tax in Ireland that he now rose. He
teittid Mr. Lawless with having supported the government
ee
the main question, and now bringing (upward an
amendmeut winds was not boom flue. Allusion had been
mole to the competition between the shipowners of Cork
sad those of Liverpool and London ; end it seemed that
die CAW I' were to be used is order to be better able to
nitre tato One competition. (Hear, bear) Ile had
he ird a lorries' Illefti•el nbautted to this house on grounds
• Joigailicant. He assumed, as he had a right, that
1ee;,5,1 .ad hitherto been properly exempt from the
ii.e.ear We ; and the only two IYIII.IIII of the Chas-
e el the Eachiquer why it should now be imposed,
voo elated to this—that England never had an little need of
ee4i from Ireland as at present, and that Ireland was
so ia to spare it. (Hear, hear.) Whea Sir IL Peel
brat I. the income tax the case w very different;
Elle,:or ;ti as
net near so rich then as it was at this time,
sat Ireland so poor. It was to be observed that the whole
of the halltaillton to he raised by the Witness* tax in Ireland
wood be sheathed by th , militia, of which Ireland would
sot nai et :salt benefit. There was a grins ineonsise
logy n Irish welshers supporting a ministry in such a
menure. after they Led refused to extend the bereft of the
seihna to Ireland. The packet service absorbed nearly a
mullion of revenue ; and of this Ireland hod very little le.
'slit ; they forgot that Ireland had the most western port in
th, emir.. (Hear, hear) Ile disapproved of other pot-
hone ef the budget; it took off the taiies from turtles and
anchovies, but i ire very little relief to the atrug-
ie,er classes. the tendency of ell measures for years
post had been to deprive Ireland of her own
resources. and to make her subservient to England. (Hear,
bear.) Ile opposed this budget from no party motive ; hie
votes were given irrespective of any minister ; but he must
soy that he believed the present Met Secretary for Ireland
(SitJobn Youn;), wits a man who meant well to Ireland.
(Hear, bear.) He did not know how the gentleman who
brought members up to vote had been able to prevail on so
many to vote with the government. Perhaps many of
them had acted from conscientious motives ; he had no
ileoht some had lone so ; but he did not believe that in
the time of Walpole or the Pelham, more scandalous cor-
ruption existed than he had seem practised under his own
eyes in corrupting the Irish members. (Loud cries of
e Name, name," from the ministerial side.) lam in the
hands of the house. (Renewed cries of " Name," and
N no," from the opposition) Then, sir, 1 will proceed
to another branch of the question. (Great interruption
sad lIICTIMPIrIff env; of s' Name, name.) If the chairman
ells me, on behalf of the house, that it is their wish that I
should name. I will do so.
Mr. V. SCILLY—Sir, I rise to order. ("Oh, oh," and
great uproar from the oppceitionl I must ask you, sir,
whether the bon. memhcr for New Ross is not out of order,
and whether he ought not to be ca!led on to retract?
(Cheer., and " No, no," from the opposition.)
Mr. J. BALL (apparently much ezeited)—l move that
the words of the hon. member for New Roes be taken
down. (Cheers, and "No, no.")
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouverie) rose amidst great up-
roar, and, leaning over the table, was understood to inn-
mote to Mr. Duffy that he might proceed.
DOTY agate rose, but was met with a perfect
storm of interruption, and renewed cries of "Name, name,"
with calls from his own side to "Go on." Them were also
cries of "'lake down the words."
The CHAIRMAN—The hon. member for Carlow hes
moved that the words be tAIIOII down. What were the
words? (Laughter and cheers from the opposition.)
Mr. J. BALL—I believe I am strictly in order (" No,
no," and great interruption from the opposition)-1 believe
I am strictly in order, according to the precedents of this
house, in moving that the words, which are fresh in the
recollection of every hon. member, should be taken down.
("No, no," and cheers.) The course I believe is, accord-
ing to preeedeut, that the clerk of the house should take
down the words.
Mr. O. H. MOORE row, amidst great uproar, and cries
of " order," and " chair." Ile was understood to refer to
some previous occasion, on which a similar motion had
been male ; but the cries of s. Order, order," with which
be was met compelled him to rename hie scat.
The CHAIRMAN—The committee cannot take any
emrse with edemas* to any language that is used by an
bon. member. The house Can only take notice of it when
the motion has been made that the words be taken down,
as has been done in this ease. It will be my duty, if those
words are taken down, to report them to the house.
Mr. G. 11. MOORE again essayed to make himself heard.
He sa:it—lit the debate on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, a
similar m tion was made in reference to words used by the
hon. member for West Surrey (Mr. H. Drummond); and
the Speaker decided that no such motion could be was.
(Cheere from the opposition.)
Mr. F. SCULLY—I must beg to correct the ben.
member for Mayo. I remember the Speaker desii•
fag that, had the hon. member who moved that the womb
should he taken down made his motion at the time the words
were uttered, it might have been done. (Hear.)
Mr. J. BALL—If the hon. member for New Row will
repeat again the words that be uttered, I will move that
they be taken down. But I have a perfect recollection of
the words, and so must every hon. member. He declared
that the grossest corruption ever known in the days of Wal-
pole or of the Pelham" had been practised towards Irish
members under his own eyes. (Cheers.)
Hr. BALL, having written the words and brought them
tip to the chairman (Mr. Bouverie),
Mr. BOUVERIE read them as follows;—" That the
gresesst corruption ever practised since the days of Walpole
obi taw Pelham" has been practised under his own eyes
it should be "my" own eyes)—(laughter)—on
IL larllleratber ." (Hear, hear.) I have now to put the
geodes Om these words be taken down, and, if the eon-
!kW an Wee le will be say duty to report them to the
Wow

Sa D. NORREYS said that he had been a long time a
member of that house, and honorer heard each expressions
used before towards other memben of the house. (Hear,
hear.) The boa. gentleman wee a young member of the
house, end not having the honour of Irish membere so
much at heart as perhaps he (Sir D. Norms) had—(a
laugh)—he would pray the hon. gentleman to withdraw the
wordy, and put aa end to this discussion.
Mr. DUFFY—The words of the hon. member for Car-
low are so nearly what I used that I do not wish to object '
to them—(laughter)—now passing from this subject—
Lord J. lit SSELL said be wished to call to the recol-
lection of the committee the circumstances under which '
this Ann. gentleman used these words, and the manner in
which he followed them up. (Hear, hear.) The words of
the hon. member were taken down, and the hon. member
himself admitted that they were as neatly as possible the
words he used. (Hear.) Oa making use of them weeds
there was an immediate cry of "Name, name." Now, it
appeared to him that if the het. member meant to make
nee of • vague @scion, which he mould not prove, he
might have been estillad in going on to other matters. If,
on the contrary, hen. member meant to cast a rodeo-
tioa on the istegrity and honour of the Irish members, if he 1
meant to say that they were the objects of the grossest cor-
ruption, which had been unequalled sines the
explaining
W alpole and the Fantasias, and then, instead of
that, took the opportunity of saying_that he would pan on
to another part at the subject. (. Hew. hear," sad No
no'). If he wan mew in that hets the his. lambs;
would contradist kin. But he sadentiest the boo. mem-
ber to say, when tie my of " Name, same," was raised,
that if the commillselesized it, aad the Makatea called
ups him to do so. be mead mote. Hear, hem.) Thot
met treks to the plum of the Ashman,( the be pa_Yemen
sell be wait ggto smother sobleft. (Hem beer.) Snot
being the to him that the sematittee in
general, I: sdis a=nill bus is particular, might con-
sider these smeis so general words lased in debate, which
the hen. podemem was not able to prove, and that they
were lousglit forward for the purpose of casting
• stigma ea the Irish members which they
did am dieserm—(hear, hear)—and that he was utterly un-
able to prove adagio word of what he uttered. (Chian.)
If, eis the other land, the hon. gentleman was ready with
the Bpeaker ia the chair to proseed to charge the Irish
lamb= idioldwally with that corm with which he
=them gmerally, then be should not re-
met VIM OS words be takes down. (Hear, hear.)
Hot es the mealr sow used, unless the bon. gentleman
moat is lo mph* that statemeat, he thought it would be
bathe he the Memmitte• to treat these words with the
" whisk they deserved. (brad cheers.)
847.167CAS sppeehended that what words of this kind
were used—if they were used—(" eh, oh ")--it was quits
path* If his his. friend shoos to go on to prove them,
that be Wed ]wen them to the moral satisfaction of
every gesidemoo, and a great deal of unpleasant state-
ment might Ws place. (" Oh, oh.") But he snarl say
he rather ushooMed the words of his hon. friend in a
different man has that is which they appeared to have
been takes. r(h. oh") What :he understood to be the
clear m of Ids boa. friend was that the grossest cor-
ruption bad
_postist towards the Irish members.
(" Oh, ob," ma MANIA Mar.") He was in the recollection
of the committees sal be would appeal to them if this was
not the wise heal of the words used, and is a matter of
this kind it was of importance that the words be taken in
the strictest hem sad with the greatest exactness, and not
taken with a gloss pat upon them. (Heal, hear.) The
words, as he understood them, contained an accusation
against the government which might or might not apply.
(Hear, hear.) The words were that the grossest corrup-
tion had been practised towards the Irish members.
(Name, name.) By whom practised? Not by the
Irish members on the government. (Laughter.) No
one would pretend to say that they corrupted the
government. (Hear, hear.) His hon. friend drew
a comparison; between the right hon. gentlemen opposite
sad the Walpoles and Pelhams of a former generation, and
he asserted that the grossest corruption since those times
had been practised by the government, and if, in regard to
their dignity and their own character, they thought it
necessary to have the words taken down, with • view to
sonar ulterior proceedings, it was all very well. But the
accusation was made against the government, and the go-
vernment must be the complainants. (Hear, her.) It
was 9oly on coming from them that the complaint could be
entertained. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PHILLIMORE believed that the words were taken
down with the utmost accuracy. (Hear, hear.) But the
hno. and learned gentleman who had just spoken, so far
from mitigating had aggravated the offence. (Chairs.)
The hon. gentleman said that the grossest corruption had
been practised towards the Irish members by the govern-
ment lailer his own eyes. As a member of the house,
then, he thought they had a right to know what member
of the government bad practised the grossest corruption
towards the Irish members urvilr his eyes, in order to in-

fleeces their rotes in that house. (hear, hear.) This was
• matter which concerned the honour of the home, and
demanded en immediate explanation (Hear.)
Mr. °TWAY said that the language of the bon. mem-
ber for New Rosa would not bear the construction put on it
by the hnn. member for Meath. because after saying that a
few of the Irish memben had voted honestly and consci-
entiously, he proceeded to say that the grossest corruption
had been practiced on them generally. (Hear.)
Mr. BALL (Cambridge) said that the words of the hon.
member for New Rose would have t.ci meaning except as
an annuatios against the government. (Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN said he must a.k fur the indulgence of
the house •• the present aeration. (Hear, hear.) The
name which he had to pursue was if the committee so de-
aided, to take down the words and report them to the
Speaker. But he must say that it was hit decided opinion
that the language of the hon. member for New Ross, as at-
tributing corrupt motives, was disorderly. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said that whether this was a matter of
important. in itself might be open to question; but the de-
cicion of the committee on it, as it might form • precedent
fur those who were to come after them, was important. Ho

understood Mr. Bouverie to say that he conside;ed the words
disorderly because they imputed corrupt motives. Now there
seemed to be some dispute about the precise words used
(" No. no.") But if the words did not impute corrupt mo-
tives but contained a distinct allegation of corrupt conduct
on the part of the government, then he apprehended that
to make such a charge—a charge of corrupt conduct against
a government—was nut disorderly on the part of • member
of the house, but was en the contrary the Ant and most
paramount duty of a member of parliament if he could
prove the truth of such a charge. (Cheers.) They should
not declare that • member was guilty cf disorderly conduct
because ne accused • government of corrupt conduct.
(Hear.) To attribute ce,rrupt motives to a government, or
to any individual member of the house, might be and was
disorderly, but wham a member made an accusation
against a ministry of acting corruptly, that member was
not guilty of disorderly coadact, but was acting on his
right, and exercising his duty as a member of the house.
(Hear, hear.) He hoped, therefore, the committee would
be cautious in the proceeding it adopted. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSON said he readily admitted what had
been stated by the right hon. gentkmon, that it was com-
petent to any hon. member to impute corrupt conduct
to the government of the day in any way; but then it ap-
peared to him that the bon. member making such a charge
was bound to maintain his accusation. (Cheers.) And as
far as the charge against the members of the government
went, he challenged the hon. member to prove it.
(Hear, hear.) They wanted no report or taking
down of the words. They had been used, and
re-stated, and he defied the hon. member to prove them.
(Cheers.) With respect to the charge as it affected the
Irish members, it stood upon a different footing. The hon.
member made a charge which, whatever might be the par-
ticular words employed, east imputations on the character
end conduct of his Irish colleagues. (Hear, hear.) In the
heat of debate and argument it often occurred that a
member was led away to make assertions which in his
cooler moments ho would not have made. (Hear, hear.)
But the hon. member was • young member of the house,
and if he (Lord Palmerston), who was a much older mem-
ber, might Teatime to suggest to him a line of conduct
which he thought would redound to his credit, he would
suggest to him whether he would not cut short the diffi-
culty, by saying that—which he was persuaded was in his
innermost mind at that very moment—that he re-
gretted having, in the warmth of debate, cast
reflections on the honour of men which he had

no good ground fee making, and which, if he
bad more time for deliberation, he would not have made.
(Hear, bear.) He thought that the hon. member would
be pursuing a course which was due to himself and to the
representatives of the country, if he fairly, and handsomely,
and candidly avowed that he did not mean deliberately and
seriously to impute any misconduet to the Irish members.
(Hear, hear.) That was the course which he would pursue
himself, and he recommended the same to the hon. mem-
ber. (Hear, hear )
Mr. LUCAS rose amidst load cries of "spoke, spoke,"
and great; confusion. He laid be believed he was per-
fectly in order. (Hear, bear.) He rose to protest against
its being taken for granted that the words which were taken
down bad the meaning which the noble lord attributed to
them. (Hear, hear, and "oh, ott") He maintained that
the words had such meaning, and that they merely con-
tained an imputation on the government. (Hear, and "oh.")

Sir 0. GREY said that the bon. member affixed a
meaning to the words which the hon. member who used
them did not. (Hear, hear.) It seemed to him that they
were engaged in a worthless discussion as to the accuracy
of the words used. (Hear, hear.) The Chairman very
properly, as it appeared to him, when the appeal was first
made to him to have the word; taken down, asked whether
the words banded to him were accurate, and the hon. gen-
tleman himself (Mr. Duffy) admitted their substantial ac-
curacy. When they were proceeding to discuss whether
the words should be taken down, the hon. member for
Meath got up and denied the accuracy of the words.
Mr. LUCAS—amidst loud cries of " Order," and great
uproar—old he did not deny them.(" Oh, ota" confusion.
and epees.) He was as mach entitled to the courtesy of
the ommlites as the right hon. gentleman. What he
said, end whet be shade the basis of his argument was,
that the weeds easitaised an accusation against the govern-
ment. (" Oh, oh.")
Sir G. GREY said he bad certainly understood the hon.
member fur Meath to deny the accuracy of the words—
(hear, hear)—to deny that the hon. member for New Rem
had stated that under his own eyes the grossest corruption
had been practised. It was true that, after admitting the
substantial accuracy of the words he objected to the con-
struction put upon them ; but the hon. member who used
them, and who was sitting by the side of the hon. member
for Meath, offered no explanation. (Hear, hear.) He
agreed with the Home Secretary, that it a wrocg construc-
tion had been pat upon the words, the hon. member for
New Roes should have said so ; he should have denied that
he intended to impute anything disgraceful either to the
government or to Irish members, and he trusted the hon.
member would now either retract the words or being for-
ward substantial proof of their accuracy. (Loud cries of
"Duffy."
Mr. H. HERBERT said as an Irish member who bad
litteatid to this most palatal discussion, he ventured to re.
mind the beam elf the advice of the noble lord by whom it
was led, namely, that they should treat the imputation of
en hew member *be did not dare to come forward either
te peeve his silage or to name the parties against whom it
was nods with the contempt it deserved. (Loud cheers.)
As an Irish member, and therefore one of thine who must
be included is the charge, he, fur one, was perfectly ready
is take the advise of the noble lord—(cheep)—sin cepa-
ally as, elan that excellent advice was given, the Home
Secretary bedsits& an appeal—be (Mr. H. Emhart) was at a
less to game himself, bat he thought the ementittee
weld aadershad him when he laid it whit lave been
amp ended te by wane deserving the nantehe hesitated
to use the weed. (Load chess.)
Mr. 0. DUFFY then rese and said—l amid have
bossed, Mr. Beaver* that. seder the eirmaitemess in
whisk I aewstead, ensiled as I have bees hose—C' Oh,
eh.* gad laii~—adled Wm re _ miler miler amm-
ammo whisk I milder salmi, I ahead have Mad that
I amid be metaid.kom seek offensive isagedge at bee
Mat am le ale. 1//e, I do not Walk mak-
able le ea masa* eflimplish de
me Mkt k andiabie se m mar* sf pandienia
flat such kispeoge skald be under stook
ageggessersa Sir, what are the whisk lam called
maeb amide ? One phrase whisk Me Walden down
ma Ms new somewhat =headstand, is the
"mist my own eyes." I was ebeeniag, dr, that sera:
▪ emperieses of public life wee, I led rem metals thing.,
sal Ile phew "under my ewa ere," meant during the
sthat I have been a member of this house.
ter.) lam not going to reed a syllable of what I
vellisaid. The Mu. gentleman, the Secretary for the
Tteseary, need set sickle out of time. (Laughter.) I
Zd.lhaeldma in assuete,iiion with what lac pro-
s geember of thphet
is house.urtadrise of " Oh, II "
That
▪ tae of the eireemstemess that I wished to ex-
plode. The ether is this. The isterpretadon pat upon
am Medi by Mr boa. misalmit Set Meath has been a sub-
jest ef diessesiim. I wee adeneing the manes of minis.
um. Wapitis, I said, ocimapeal podiums% as history
tells us ; the Pelham did the same. I teas of the cor-
✓aptieseneried en by diaristprim maims, and which
elms beta OP me own time. I with the Mae set to mis-
mdememd she phrase "ands me sum eyes," and the
ern wade. (" Oh, oh.") The shape whisk I gam my
sailemea was this—that it was my ambition that daring
dm time that I had bees Is pediment the yeassat govern-
ment had operated wpm aftein Ida _masse. (Ceat
lereghter.) The staliment which I whit to mike to the
biros. if I may be allowed M aupldn after Mime so often
said aria to do se, is this—that what I meat was, that
Ike mons kind of Manes that was employed by Wal-
=the Pelham, seemed to have bees employed to
the votes of a small Kaaba of Ilia members.
palm of " name.") Well, sir, the halm aspiration
ad* I wish to offer is this—The table Iced Ibis galled,
I Wine, the leader of this hose" has=
ear that I wonted to pass away from thewheat
fast ieslmidaniha(tHeiaff, hear.) Now, ei,r,
asthat nee the
the spa
of the esemitbee, called upon me to name, I woad
imam. There were cries on both sides of the
house of " Don't name." From this I came to the conclu-
sion that it was the wish of the house that I should not
name. I bad no wish to paw the matter by. (Cries of
" Name.") I am, as several hon. gentlemen have re-
marked, not an old member of this house, and am net very
familiar with its forms. I have got into a position in
which I did not expect to be, but there is ose position
which I shall not get into—it is that of unsaying anything
that I have said. (Hear, hear.) If it be the wish of the
committee that I should give any further explanation, and
state the facts which induced me to make the state-
ment that I have done, I shall then feel at
liberty to proceed ; if, on the contrary, it be the
opinion of the committee that I should withdraw what I
have said, then I have nothing to do but to face the ames-
quences, whatever they may be. (The hon. member re-
sumed his seat amidst loud cries of " name.")
Mr. DUFFY—I em called upon to name. Now if I un-
derstand it to be the wish of a large another of members r
will do so. (General cries of " No, no.")
Mr. BRIGHT thought the committee must have dis-
covered a considerable difference between the explanation'
of the hon. gentleman and the expressions which be used in
his original statement. (" Oh.") The hon. member de-
clared it to ere his opinion that governments in
the present day took measures somewhat analo-
gous to those taken by former governments for the
purpose of influencing the votes of that house.
Well, he should be very sorry indeed to base to defend any
government from charzea of that =Sum (Laughter.)