The Express.
London, England, 1853-04-07 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 7, 1853.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. '
HOUSE OF COMMONB.—WEDNESDAY, APRIL 6.
The house met at 12 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Titian Re %tit:4o4.—S.Nord Extension sod Improvement
Bill (an amendment to be proposed) ; Whittle Dean Water-
works Bill (ill amendment to be proposed).
SacuNti RIADINO.—LudIow Cattle Market and Slaugh-
terhouses Bill. _
....

_____
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
RUNDAT OPINING or CLITSTAL PALACE.—By Lord
CHELSEA, from minister, warden, and congregation of
St. John's Chspel, Layer ; Mr. CHILD, from inhabi!ants
of Stone, Staffirdshlre ; Mr. DODD, from parishes in
Shropshire; against.
I'ItODATILS GT WILLS AND 011•NTA Or ADMINI4TRATION
BILL —By MV. GEORGE DUN DAS, from the Edinburgh
and Bathgate Railway Company; in favour of.
UMITIRIITT TUTS Is SVOTLAND.—By Mr. CR AU-
FU RD, from visited prosbyteriancougregeoun of the parish
of 0:el Cannock and Oirvan, Ayrshire; for repeal of.
(Scats PE:Ar POSTAOE.—By Mr. DANBY SEY-
MOUR, from Shinbones ; in favour of.
RATING MINES.—By Mr. BAINES, from Illogan and
Permouttee, Cornwell ; for an improvement in the law of.
CONAULIDATILD ANIIVITIZA.— By Mr. LUCAS, from
die Navas Board of Gravities; fur the remission of.
Pan ND INcosa TA: —By Sir GEO. GOOD-
MAN, from 61
_physicians and surgeons in the town of
Leeds sad issiiedUite vicinity ; for • modification of.
FARLI
from members of the Brainier? Mechanics' Institution ; for.
Atiotsstost or Jaws To PARLI , . . By Mr.
DODD, from Bola', in Shropshire; Mr. MOODY, from
Sampford Budleigh; against.
ANNI AL CIIIITITICATI TAIL—By Mr. MOODY, from
solicitors of Crooks nu ; for repeal of.
PROBATES OF WILLS AND GRANTS OF ADMI-
NISTItATIO'S BILL.—GOVERNMENT SCHEME.
Os the order of the day for the second nailing of this bill
being read,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said—lle thought it ne•
CSISAIT that they should have a very clear understanding of
the grounds on 'which this bill should be admitted, on the part
of the goverumeut, to be read a second time. The purpose of
the bill suers the impott ince of which could seemly be ex-
aggerated. It would be in the recollection of the house
that he had stated, on 'Corrine occasion, that in case the
report of the commission which was sitting on this and
cognate subjects was not presented within a certain period,
he would consider it his duty to lay on the table of the
house a measure which wouldsmbrace the whole 'object—
that subjeet upon which there bed been incessant but fruit-
less attempts to legislate ever since 1830. The present bill,
it would be observed, was directed only to a very fragmen-
tary part of that extensive subject. It was directed exclu-
sively to th:s particular mischief; the necessity which at
present ezisted,in consequence of very defective machinery,
of having, on many muting, probates ranted, and admi-
siitratioc. taken out, in different ecclesiastical courts. By
way of introducing the matter, though he believed it was
familiar to almost every hon. member, the house would
probably indu:ge him while he sketched the present state
of our ecclesiostisal jurisdiction in this respect. There was,
at present, the Prerogative Court of the Archbishop of Can-
terbury and the Prerogative Court of the Archbishop of
York ; and the probate of a will or an administration granted
in one province was now of no avail in the other
province. Then were. besides, the Diocesan Consistorial
Courts of the Bishops of Dioceses; and, again, independent
of these jurisdictions there were, at least, 300 smaller tri-
bunals scattered over the country, which were called Peet-
liar's Courts, reek of which, over a particular area had a
right of jurisdiction of granting probates of wills and letters
of administration. The consequence of such a complication
not unfri queenly was that a will had to be proved, fint in
Canterbury, and secondly in York, that then a further pro-
bate wit required in Scotland, and even again in Ireland;
and by the evidence which came before the commission
he had, retorted to, it would appear that there were
numerous casts in which it was requisite that the same will
should be prated, in different courts, not less than sin times.
To this description of mischief this bill to • certain extent
addressed itself; but, unfortunately, it was so badly worded
and so imperfectly expressed that, in the attempt to remedy
the evil, it would, in point of fact, render the evil ten times
more insufferable than it was at present. Mese, hear.)
Ile alluded, particularly, to toe first section, which provided,
with a very inadequate view of the subject, that
any probate of a will or letters of administration " that
shall he granted, in England or Ireland, by any court or
authority having jurisdiction to grant such, in respect to
any part of the personal estate, shall be, in all such cases,
equally valid and effectual, in respect to the whole of the
personal estate ;" and if the bill were permitted to pass is
that form of word., and if the same will must
still be proved in a dozen different tribunals,
the result would be that there would then be • dozen
different probates all of conflicting authority. (Hese
hear.) It was eiear, therefore, that the good intent of the:
bill had been completely marred by an imperfect and in.
sufficient form of expre.sion. He admitted that this diffi-
culty, and the other difficulties arising out of bad wording,
could be remedied in committee, and, no doubt, if the bill
was to proceed at all, it is to the committee only they
would have to look. But he would humbly suggest to the
house that the best c tree would be this—that the bill
should be allowed to be read a second time, but only
pro form!, and on the clear understanding that it
should Tennis on the table of the house' until an opportu-
nity should be afforded the government of bringing in that
larger MUM* on the whole subject to which he had be-
fore adverted; and then, if the opportunity thus afforded
should not be- taken advantage of within a reasonable time,
he would of genres not be entitled to object to this parti-
cular bill now before the house going on into committee ;
sad in committee it would be his earnest desire so to
amend the bill, and engraft on it such provisions, as would
render it at ail events a very considerable instalment of the
much needed and long promised reform with respect to the
testamentary,luriediction of the country. (Hear.) With this
view he would proceed to state, in • few words, the addi-
tional previsions which he thought it would be amasser!
to incorporate in this bill, and in consideration
of the desirableness of which he was alone jus-
tified in makirg his present proposal to the house.
The first thing which they should attempt in this matter
was the total abolition of the Peculiars Court's jurisdiction.
(Hear, hear.), They stood at present in • peculiar predica-
ment.
Legislation had long ago been aimed at them ; and
they were doomed to be extinguished by the act of the 6th
sad 7th Wm. IV., 5.77. In truth this jurisdiction, which
lad ever bees en opprobrium to the eivilizatiM of the
country, bad Item onstiased, from time to time, is • very
extraordinary way, by the mem email sem penal Or
the strangekFee of searsaillas the wrecks 0 that
very act a 6 7 Wm. IV 77, c. .In fact, theme seeds
had been alive by what might he regarded as ea
anneal act of isidesanity. Bat this esuM set he eagetealte
go on meets Roster ; and, If the larger mom* eleanai ma
be brought itt, and if this bill, also, with emeadome Wee-
ducted into it, should set he penal Into a law, he warned
the persons who wen 011111111111811 la bebsizareistlsoes ea-
anal acts of suspends* M. "deo the ef these
mischievous once • he await .mmernalem li• peemeed
to appeal t• the sums eif the Imes MOW the
object of the ad he bed gusted sus_
_lay Mager
be thus avoided;, hear.) The AsMati el then
Peculiars warts es the teitemehimy jedeildka of
the country in • new gmiesa. The Diemen Osuds would
rank with the two seeds of-the gIISSIDSGS of Oimierlary
sad York i aad the mugged whidi he mold hereafter sub-
mit to the lose wend have he he shied, moo other
Zlge, to Men* ellniether the imeespdlart . court of the
edYineVaitemd to MAIM me mart of
M takTbZiet the whdetelatr enln4barit
oat all sedgesle ism
- The phrase
" esatestime kehdiell " wig nobs • little *a-
nimation Am Me hmelt r
ef theme penmen who were not
esamemall WM legal gbeseedegy. There were three forms
of pinks a will. Oa,. whisk am seised is teehnisel ke-
el a will is IMMO alla=bld• to PoolltYi
irrarnartessee thee Woke in as of the do OZ.
main= sod ettestedee MI TM balk, women seisbed ir
Ihe kw ; and then, if, on the foe ef Ile Mem
meat, Ohm appeared se elgesehm leAlte ...bain
of the set, the will wee pined uthineat Perim 111111.
wit proof of • will la common Lis ad WM Ibiesser•
tins of about armtrath er en- et the mils mega
in the country, all wills might be aid Mae Mimi fa Mal
feria. Obviously it wend be very destrabie that thinheabl
be pensituthte be den in the mow most eemessisel
for the purposes of them poem who en redden Ia the
oouatry, and whooped set,, ohm hem pesemenat NSW
miry, be geespelled, fee orb ea sliest, to Newt to the
metropolis. The premed. therefore, would be that there
should nada to the Dieser& °warm who would remain
unaffected by the &Wham of the Peculiars Comte, the
power of eammialeg the "motion of the probable of
wills in commis firm ; not giving them contentious jurie-
dictiost, whisk implied baptise tad complicated pram
dun ; not giving them the pewee of having wills proved in
Wenn form by the elaborate mantiaation of witnesses;
bat leaving them to maim in capes of estates sot exceeding
• limited amount—of about 1,0001. or l,7oo4.—thee power of
receiving and psesiog wills in common form. He would.
however, olds
_he in favour of giving the Diocesan Courts
this power mint sertala qualifications. The first c mdition
Irbil* he midi alleali would be of this nature. The Dio-
esemn Courts wow palled seer by the Chancellors of the
Diocese, sad lbw Chancellors were judicial oilers ap•
pointed by the Odle diocese. Is sissy of th•Dissesaa
Courts Sheet were gistlemon who had Meadely
trained in the of the law, and eadeabledkr fal-
as:g:
flied the f of their dime with gnat eldilly, ead to
the emitted eatilhenea of the pewees ahem kennels were
affected by Mese ewers. BM die wee eat the MN uni-
versally ; and trelisCe woo* tokolOwstly. be le allow
testamentary
le the extent be bed meatiemed to
j
be retained in the diseases mad; 'ablest le the 'sedition
that in every diodes the elemeallor shall be • lawyer of •
eertain stapling at the her, sod of certain qualifications in
the profession of barrister. There was another condition m
necessary to be attached. The house would bear in mind
the great advantages that were to be derived connected with
the probates of wills, as indicating the value of estates, from a
system of general registration ; and he would propose that
every will proved in the manner he had stated in the diocesan
courts should be transmitted to the general registry of wills
to be established in London, in which all the wills at present
scattered smog the various diocesan and peculiars courts,
and in future to pass throat/1i the diocesan courts, shall be
congregated, copies only beilg kept for reference in the
registries of the diocesan courts. With thes, qualifLations
he would be for leaving the pawn of proviso wills in
common form in the diocesan courts; and the house could
net but be aware that it would be a hardship in the average
cases of penes. resident in the provinces to make it neces-
sary fur them, for this mopes, to have to vrort to t`..ci me•

tropolis. But even is the peeving of wills in ounnuta
hem gentians and difficulties arose; and it would he pre-
=tint in all such instances the matter should be re-
fer decision to the metropolitan court. Not only,
elm would all contentions jurisdiction connected wite3hp
iissersaiessian of suits arising out of disputed "WM
emitted in the metropolis ; but, fees, all cases that4itlite
wise in course of determination of wills in comma.
would, in the same manner be referred
tb
illealsal tribunal. Connoted, farther, with them d
Ism courts he would propose to extend ttlsleattriffillemip
powers of administering estates; and he would do wro—for
what he regarded as satisfectory reasons. The house would,
he thought, coincide with him in the necessity of '
weibming the powers and jurisdiction in these
matters as much as possible in the same tri-
band ; for the great evil at present existing, in addition
to the other evils of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, lay in the
eircumatioce of the jurisdiction of provicg • will and
granting administration being exercised by a tribunal
which was perfectly distinct from the tribunal to which ap-
pertained the power of administering the estate and effects
of the deceased party. In continuing, therefore, these
powers to the diocesan courts, which it would be de-
sirable to contiose, for a variety of reasons, la addi-
tion to those he had most broadly. stated, it would be
regret that there should be given to the county
MEN collaterally with the diocesan courts the right
Of administering, to a certain amount, the effects of
deceased persons. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the ge-
tropnlitati Court, what he proposed was that that court
should he at once transferred, as it at present existed, with
all its staff of sisperienced practitioners—Vii., proctors, re-
eistran and clerks of the see—to the Court of Chancery.
He said the Court of Chancery for the some mars he
had jut given; for the Court of Cuancery was the only tri-
bunal to which the administration of the property of de-
ceased persons belonged; and, therefore, the only court
which would have the power of exercising the authority to
take cognisance of wills affecting personal estates, and also
lof wills affecting real estates. The house was aware that
there was at present a great anomaly in the system in this
respect. You proved a will in Doctors'-commons, and the
proof of that will, when decided on by that tribunal, is
binding with respect to remand estate; but, then, the
decision of that tribunal as to the whole of the personal
estate is not of the smallest effect or operation with respect
to the validity of the same instrument so far es it affects
real estate. The result, as was only to be expected, was
great confusion, • varier y of conflicting decisions, and of
contradictory detenninatiws--he was not speaking theoreti-
cally—but of what was found to occur in practice ; the
same instrument bring valid as a will as regards personal,
and inoperative as regards real estate. The only mode
in which this evil could be remedied would be to vest in the
one tribunal power finally to determine the validity of a
will as an instrument affecting both real and personal
estate ; and to give that power to the tribunal which has
jurisdiction to carry into effect the direction of the instru-
ment with regard to either portion of the property. The
result of that arrangement of the jurisdiction would be
this : that the diocesan courts must be regarded as courts
placed in connexion and relction with the metropolitan
tribunal, vie., the Court of Chancery, which would become
the great court of probate; and thus another anomaly in
our system would be done away with. At present
the ecclesiastical courts are not regarded as Queen's courts,
but as deriving their power from Nome sort of spiritual au-
thority ; but by a transfer of this ecclesiastical jurisdiction
to the Queen's court, the Court of Chanosry, that anomaly
would be done away with; sad the wh de of the jurisdic-
tion, as to proof of wills, and administration of estates,
would henceforth be regulated and controlled by one tit-
bunal; the whole business would flow in the same cheer*,
and be guided by the same principles; there would be one
court of appeal, with the same course of procedure; there
would, be no necessity for resorting, for the same end, to
different tribunals; the ends of justice would be simply
and adequately served; and all the exigencies of the case [
would be answered and discharged by the same court.
This would introduce not only conformity but convenience
into the system; and would in fact accomolish all that had
been so often and so vainly attempted before. In his (mi-
-1 nion the failure of preview efforts in this direction was
attributable to two 011114111. One Mete was that un-
til the late reform in the Court of Chancery
there had been a great disinclination, whatever
the desire for a charge, to transfer the jurisdiction of the
welesiutical courts into that court, which, indeed, had la-
boured under • degree of discredit hardly inferior to the
reproach attaching to the ecclesiastical courts themselves.
But the imperfections of the Court of Chancery had now I
been nearly, if not entirely, done away with ; and the time
had obviously come to mai; the transfer with the certainty [,
that the junsdictioa in respect to wills and to the property
of deceased persons, dying intestate, would be regulated is I
a manner satisfactory to the country at large. Thera was, I
however, one reason which ernented an obstacle, ape
patently to accomp'ish such a transfer, and that con-
sisted in a difficulty with regard to the ques.
tion of compensating the persons whose interests
would be affected by the change. To avoid this
difficulty altogether, he would ask the hewn to go along
with him in the recommendation theta the presestellosre
of the existing court, the proctors and regissmes, the sleds I
of the see, and others, should at once become Where of the
Court of Chancery, for the purpose of administering *ls
new great jurisdiction, and that there should be gins to
them, fur a certain definite period, the conduct of the he*
ness of the proof of wills in common form. Ile made this I
proposal brans he wee very far from being ingestible to
the value and hapeelemee of retaining the esperiers sad 1
ability of that seederisse body of men, the equity_regbs
tears, and the pear of the Prerogative Coons.
If this anessummt were accomplished—if they
were so hinewiliwed to the Chancery Court, and
the rights essered to them for a certain period, the
duration of shish might be hereafter considered, with re-
spect to the beigusof proving wills in comems fens, thou
he thought would be precluded Item all em.
plaint, ask asthemmere, that their peedseissel smelt
mesas wadi be ihmei met to suffer by the ter mar. In this
way the Wiliam,' would avoid all that lIIIIMMOMeII and
these oblim which on former occasion had Wised is the
way of the dissind reform. In connexion with rho err
saltier, ittomsssseme Is naiad the beer thin es the
lamer andess the had pardied that the
Wren of the erre dra' Ohs their sages
adder to tater shows nye It _
gm sad
sad
should sot, epos nth thaer. ite =MO to sempeasa-
I des ; sad his Messed Ode
_pilot is east eat
lid MO WWI hiss teffil *mat prima to
soma the rap Or mesh a peapseri obi sew melds. The
6th sTO Wm. IV. already alluded be Assad *eh ie
ease reissublitabsige,adles rearm ere alive MOM of
the deers of Bii&.--Welee, with the
easeptin ettlesellhels et the deirille Canter-
bury. allell Immo estai=a ==ll should
Isle. lathe sent elf dr sequin
limp rend_ Weir sompeerties. Teen bs ao dit
"salty, theesisee. la Odle, ea be bad prepeesd with re-
gard to the haiku se ths Diseraia butts, the rights of
ether slims might sehrwlee stead in the way of retorts ;
Ito be appedesemiell thermoset* seemly be as mimeos that
waved aft AU mar tee apart= el the act he had re-
herd le. AU
se Ing these derges leriag bees seemed, the
=ll= er sisigidsal, cm the sada* of
is this trey. Wbsener a more din Its=
s OA pier et esedesse witbis the lfaYO et the jariedie-
Os e~ptir sae debt arras worm ;prided
10 setae See see nosed item ziellegten users% lt will be era-
fee ble la he Is the derma sort of his
; bet_ jr OW sondes erre train she proof, or
Ore b atig.llNerra ar dittos asides the will, the deli-
*Mit the trosedss, wish Os litissides, most be removed
lathe Cent of Probate In IMAM The like ale will
mg, with repaid to the ether of raw dyiag iatiatat• ;
and, is she erns of a peers AVe&bagist so find resi-
ders be a Oars, sr skesi. Or the
will tad Si estate shall
be preyed est sera by the tretrepeldes wart
dish Wills ell ben te be
tilpearesided, whatever
pined, te the Merepelites tesis. Admirers*. will
do be elifeeleed is Ideas; ad Os steer Stift will
the be gnus Or is pert sad martarrisa et thla to
reel sad pond ester; red the rile whin at peewit
=Dam lake rettered, sad bid, slam is-
is tbe Amer depedieres et Mee prseiseld
A
Ira bens=uCal The
will be the the Os Court 'em=
am will pima at elm., as peon eat wady et determining
thelrlik a_ilfeeelagkle be aerial Obi Weet, bat floally
ettlirdballog the ores tel the real as era se the whole of
do gromell mow All wrier will therfen be at oar
trardweed le ere led pros of newt, via., to the lions. of
Lards es the apart at appeal, instead of being derided, as
sash gesedess sew ere, some mthe Privy Conseil, sad
saw fa the
.11nas if Lords, which brag Naively We-
eeriest juswbetiese, est esfreqtratly strive at wids
aserieses. (Meer. hem) He hai sawrit wish drain the
prehisse et the msserre, w ether
van
8=8;
be
dwohlids wino, isressbmit te
the
bear with the less relaresse, tbsaTer yet se more
this bed bra warred et by sesesades earmissiesers,
bed buss =relied lea variety eit ISs, sea had beta tem
tared seed to be deterOs sitseatisse, bra
1830 downwards. ear, hear.) Ma might eels te the
various attempts •to carry such lehmegee IMO 1111616. Is
183,5 a bill was resift is se the lies. if Owner is
conformity with *it sessmseseisties of the emir miners,
who reported is ISIS 4 ter atabilehleg Woad teams in
each province. Is 1836 another hill was flor sho
establislusent of one court only for boa la WA
a bill was brought in fur the establishment au mart
for Eagland and Wales. In the year there was a
bill proposing what he had new 1.111,10114 vis,firir see
central court and a variety of local inalits. In ter a bill
was brought in for establishing a siemlle court of prehiste..
There was another billof the roe Wad be 1844,and eerier
to the same effect ir. 1845. There had therefore bees Ia
point of fact a series of enemies to the preeideas
be bad sketched into effect ; end ke was aware
that then were many caste is width Medd her
to wait for a more full development, yet thsoght they
had both material and information to proceed at ease apes,
as well as being In possession of opinions oftnithitiacsion,
from men of every variety of political GU concurring
in the propriety and necessity of the eat of owe
metropolitan court for the proof and administration of
wills, such court to be aided only and in a subordinate way
by the provincial courts. (Hear, hear.) The other oh
jects that would be accomplished by such a measure were
important in other points of view ; bat in order that be
might anticipate some possible objections he might at once
elate that there would be in that aware a plan for the
regulation of caveat in London al me; so that they m'ght
be entered in London, and then immediately communicated
Ito the diocesan court. Tate result of that would he, that
there would be no necessity fur searching a variety of dirt.
wean courts for the purpose of arcertainum whether there
was any objection to the proof of a will ; the objection
would in future he in the caveat in the metropolitan office.

And there was another important point. The house was
aware, no doubt, of the difference that arose in the adminis-
tration of estates er ration of Cie imperfection of the juris
dietteMpf ecclesiastical courts to provide fur the administra-
tion egjgripeety pending disputcirt Th' would be a y
- removedilytintralisi tak the ce
1
of de.tetzoo the a w the rig 1
id ' 1 th ; before mends
'w w " full to ad der 'es ;
end empeqdtafly no din' y, touchiet the 'Mu a
debnllidrosel takjUloperty, or., 'Mit emboli...Mate
,that anew- nnaNdantlf,sprung up, MUM possibly osier.
(Hear, hear.) He had now completed' his list of the base-
fits that be believed would flow from such a measure as he
would, on • suuent occasion, ask the leave of the
house to bring in.( Hear, hear.) He had only to say, in
conclusion, that if it was perfectly undentood that the pre-
sent bill was to lie en the table until he had that measure
ready, be would not resist the second reading; but if that
were not understood, be could not accede to the second
reading.
Mr. HUME—Would your large measure include Ire-
land and Scotland ? (Hear, hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was obliged to the hon.
gentleman for reminding Hrn of that point. Undoubtedly
it would be desirable to make probates granted is one
country of universal effect in the other country; and by
the measure be contemplated, though there would be moth.
buttons to meet the different circumstences in Ireland, the
probate of • will would he of universal effect and acceptc-
Ema throughout the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY was sure that the house and the country
Mould feel the greatest regret that the honourable
and 1 di gentleman had not given notice of
his intention to make that elaborate and extensive
and mast important speech which he had just
delivered. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The hon. and
learned gehtleman had taken them by surprise, and bad
addressed himself to a thin house, though, had notice of his
intention been given, none of those gentlemen would have
been absent who were known to take • deep interest in this
'abject (Hear, bear.) It would have been a very prefer-
, able course if the hon. and learned gentleman had proceeded
' is the regular manner, in the first place given full notice,
and only made his statement in moving regularly to bring
In that bill which he bad explained, but for which he had
demi so date nearer than very likely the end of the
swim (Hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman had
referred to the commission sitting on this and other sub-
jab ; but he had not said whether or net he would delay
Ms measure until after that commission had reported.
(Hear, hear.) From the elaborate details into which the
bee. and learned gentleman had entered it was, however,
quite clear that his bill was fully matured, that the mind
Mike government was made up, and that the measure was
quite in a state to be laid on the table. (Hear, bear.)
There were some points upon which, however, the hon. and
isnemed gentleman was not fully understood. Were Irish
amd seeteh wills to be congregated in London, too ? Were
1 Probates granted in Ireland to have effect in Ragland ?
' The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—There would be • Court
of Probate in Dublin corresponding to the court io Loudon,
and the probate granted in either would run throughout
the United Kingdom. That, indeed, was • very important
addition to any previous proposition.
Mr. HENLEY would ask another question. Are all the
courts except the Nieman Courts to be abolished ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—The Peculiars Courts,
the Consistory Courts of the Bishop, for the proving of
wills, where the estate does not exceed • limited amount,
would remain.
Mr. HENLEY—When ha said abolished, he, of course,
meant so fez as regarded tostameetary jurisdiction. But of
course the hon. and learned gentleman included in his
sweep the archdeaconal courts? [The Solicitor•Gleneral :
Yes.] That was very important : for those courts were con-
sidered by many persons as of great local convenience.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the chancellors of the
Diocesan Courts, they were; it appeared to be all
barristers; but of the equity or the common law bars ? As
far as he (Mr. Henley) understood the Chancellor had
nothing to do with the proving of wills; it was all done by
the registrar. (Bear, bear.) The hon. and learned gen-
tleman said no compensation would be necessary to the
practitioners in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury be-
cause they would be passed into the Court of Chancery.
But then they were only to have one species of business,
that arising out of the common form wills. (Hear, hear.)
Who was to have the contentions jurisdiction ? That was
to go, no doubt, in common, to the ber and solicitors at
large ? [The Solicitor-General—Yes.] Well, that was
great injustice ; the proctors would thus be thrown into
courts of whose procedure they knew nothing. (Hear,
hear.) With regard to the Peculiar Courts the hon. and
learned gentleman said that there were few or no instances
in which the officers would not have taken office
since the 6 and 7 Wm. IV. But if there was an
instance what would the hon. and learned gentleman do ?
He thought it would be far better to postpone the second
reading of this bill, because he thought it would be hardly
fair to graft on this measure a measure of so extensive a
character as that stated by the Solicitor-General. With
reference to this vast subject he decliaed to offer an opinion
at present. He thought it a matter of that importance that
they ought to see it in detail to be able more fully to con-
sider it.
Mr. R. PRILLIMORE said he hoped that the claims of
the advosates in the ecclesiastical courts would be fully con-
sidered by her Majesty's government, but of this he was
quite certain, that no body of individuals bad a right to op-
pus their claims, whatever they might be, to a great public
improvement. (Hear.) He could not presume te offer any
opinion as to whether the speech of the Solicitor-General
was strictly in accordance with the regular forms of that
house or not, but of this he was quite certain, that no one
who listened to it could have fait any other emotion than
that of gratitude, for a more clear and lucid statement on a
lab t, on which the hon. and learned gentleman was not
particularly conversant, he never had the good
M listen to. He could vouch for the extreme
et the statement which the hon. and learned gon-
Latad made. He was not aware that in any part of
torical narrative there was a single error. With
'regard to this bill be thought the house must be of opinion
that the end desired by the bon. member for Sheffield, who
had introduced it, was a most desirable one, bet it
did happen that the present bill was an instance
that the means used exactly defeated the end, and he
anheidffied to thehon. gentleman that the confusion which
at Moot *Meted would be increased by it. The first
aims kited that any probate ranted by any esiett or
mr~orlty having power should be in all cases available in
Oaf Ma of the missile estate. The mend (knees, omitting
tkinametrant words "in respect of the whole estate,"
that any probate or administration by any court
shield in all eases be prima/46s evidence that it had been
radby an authentic tribunal. Now look at the possi-
onvenience that might arise hen tiro. A person
died,aay in Dublin, baring 500,0001. la Wen. aD,OOOI.
is Dublin, and 201. is Tehire. He semesseate the bank
staCaLtramai fit, and II: 's
Tay* to wies"ira :
IMIIIITall:31; Napa the razz; seal as
£tceagzoolassaheyshba:
0
Pit lettret• of ailibbiballill la Ireland. Now
aswrtuwld obb.rve that,
tbinirri the resent
.systetm;
perm could by • caveat pretest' prX: being granted in
that way. A pessom leg bt knee~aft ta four diNor-
pewrinets, and he 'wee set iimedirisig an imaginery
had
graciossi• iNlilaiiii had WNW *es be bad
of sta AWN& There was a
Iptween seeelemalitheilqualiar i
tieisperaulisre were in sulator abuse Mk The disown
Was wire la number Well Imllllwy ewe is bet
sanely marls Otte dbeis*, ma Ile bliemfma to deem wee
that they *ere in maw eases peculiarly elleered, sad that
ilte bade* is alseharget kg atewmy, and that the existing
MitiaMeos both in them marts, and the metropolitan
swat were wholly hedeleselble. Hr understood the hos.
mud lesesed mahatma to say that the registrar who was
,gat
left with any jurisdiction whatever should have • legal edn-
-1 cation as well as Chancellor. He entirely agreed with
that observitioa, end le thought that toe mock importance
could scarcely he attacked to the elks of ; bat
at pesseafthe registrar was ia the mmeleat habit et an-
, uarsaleatiag with thq _Chamomile* ea all quelling of !Meshy
the* might aries.l del awe et the meet diMeall qrsestiess
dial AI arise were net them whisk sumo k a santested
hem Wore tisialtebat whisk mese ea the lees of the la-
Wawa itself. hoped** flelisiSer-Oeseral would take
' ewe that diem was so deputy sad me &ewe, end that the
penes who meshed the Rai &ma allselmeire the Alm.
The LORA ADVOCATE mil be andante. ge into the
Ircpaertioa, bat he only whist in make as observe-
eial so tar as it affected thoelemil. He understood the
of the eiztla Gismo was set manly te make a probate ltwill is Ilesimil mead Is lisselemi bets dm to amend
a similar preseeding la Seethed to Mislead. Now that
was • very desirable °bleat, and one that he
r *WI be of promoting, but, unketanately, as the
Velem is would am be applisabie le lleetkad.
,It Imes &hirable to lait *et the hem. pestle.
We vibe had brought in the
_to
,fmste
MI6 him in order to make it applimabtne deotknd, and
MeloydOrie thought many alterations were required to make
dasimilleste hall operative, he was quite ready to support the second
lir. COWAN said be had received a petition from mallo-
ws of alumni:es in Scotland, complaining of the bard-
Wpm which existed to many persons connected with them
la respect of the present state of the law. Ho bad heard
the owations of the Lord-Advocate with great pleasure,
said he trusted the bill would be allowed to proceed.
Hr. HUHN said he had never heard a sere able and
comprehensive statement than that of the Solielaw•Oeseral.
He trusted that the bill would make 'revisit* he the um-
, plete abolition of the existing slseeuries bet he did set wish
to meddle with vested interests.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said he had net the least
difficulty in shying that it would be one of the repetitions
of the masses which he trusted soon to bring in to abolish
all these sineestres—(cheers)—which had been the °ppm-
Mies of these courts, and he might say of that house, he-
ssian when they spoke of • sinecure which was at present en-
lord by one whose name had been so often before the public
-.4tr. Moore—let them remember that that house had same-
dened the granting of the reversion of the office, and it
Mould be unfortunately incumbent on him to provide for
dm admission not only of a sinecure in posamision, hut of
ow in reversion, which, must be done at the expense of the
people of England.
Mr. WALPOLE did not think that they should gain
anything by the second reading et the bill. On the contrary,
as be understood the nature of the proposition which
the Solicitor-General had made to the house, he could
not embody in this measure the large one which he would
propose without a special resolution. For that reason he
suggond that the hon. gentleman, who had charge of the
bill, should consent to its being read a second time on that
day month. Ilia learned friend had announced a
very large measure to improve the ecclesiastical courts.

In those impevesassa as gar as they had been
shadowed teethe- he t say, generally, that he en-
tirely concurred. Ha red hls hon. and loused friend,
that when he wasciads .illealtnfrosith this great subject,
natimply„ the juruflictiori of seclesiestical courts in
teelOorerf, matter*: he would red it was absolutely'
n dent —with the ' indiction of these
i
come* ' all other Matters, he wished to ine-
prom athirst that when he did blies is his bill it ought to
be a bill to comprehend the whale of the questions which
were now administered by the ecclesiastical courts. If the
measure should then beam* so large that it could not be
passed during the present session he would withdraw that
observation for the present. The principal jurisdiction was
the testamentary jurisdiction, and if they took away that
jurisdiction they would not leave sufficient to remunerate
the practitioners. He wee therefore convinced that
ulti-
mately his hon. and learned friend would be forced to deal
with the whole question, and that he might say was the in-
tention of the late government.
Mr. HADFIELD said he thought it would be better to
read the bill a second time. The expectation of the
.
1
on this subject was very great, and the sufferings
families were coasteatly enduring were disgraceful to 1
civilised country. Ile therefore confessed that he was tins '
willing to postpone the bill, but he begged to assure the'
Solicitor-Oenerel that if he would take a month to intro-
duce his measure, he would postpone this measure till the
expiration of that period.
Mr. MULLINOS was surprised that any expression
should hate been used that day to consent to the second
reading of this bill, because he was perfectly satisfied this
bill could net be made to work without determining a great
deal which was matter of principle, and ought to be dis-
cussed by that house. In cases of intestacy some of the
next of kin might live in one county and some in another,
in which there might alas be property, and under this bill
there would be a race run as to which should get adminis-
tration first. Ile thought the proposal which had been
made that this bill should be altogether postponed for the
purpose °fallowing the Solicitor-General to bring in his
large measure would be much more fitting than to allow
the second reading of this bill. For these reasons he should
move that this bill be read a second time that day six
months.
Mr. WALPOLE explained that in what he said before be
meant to state that it was his individual opinion that the
question of the ecclesiastical courts should be treated in one
general measure.
Mr. MALINS concurred in the object of this bill, but
thought the measure could scarcely be . carried into effect
by any private member when it was considered that the
g cut had this subject under consideration by a
commission appointed by government. He thought this bill
should be postponed till the Solicitor-General had brought
forward his measure, rather than that the amendment
should be carried, which would cause the bill to be lost.
Mr. GEORGE said the Solicitor-General, as he under•
stood him, intended that probate should extend not only to
personal property but to real estate, and therefore the ob-
taining of probate for a matter of 1001. in England might
affect large real estates in Ireland; and if that were so, he
thought full and due notice ought to have been given of so
important a measure. There was another point in reference
to Ireland. The Solicitor-General proposed a concurrent
jurisdiction in England and Ireland in reference to pro-
bates, sad then they would have the Lord Chancellor of
England deciding on the title of Irish estates, and an Irish
Lord Chancellor deciding on the title of estates is England.
He should therefore vote for the amendment that the bill
be read a second time that day six mirth*.
Mr. R. PHILLIMORE suggested that the hon. member
for Sheffield should accede to the proposition of the right
bon. member for Midhurst, that the bill should be post-
posted for a month.
Mr. HADFIELD consented, and an order was made
accordingly.
AGGRAVATED ASSAULTS BILL.

The bonieTtitin vein into committee on this bill.
On clause 1,
Mr. PHINN said he should not persevere in certain
amendments of which he had given notice, but he should
persevere in an amendment giving power to inflict corporal
punishments in aggravated assaults on women and chil-
dren.
Mr. BARROW then proposed an amendment, providing
that convictions under the act should only take place in
open petty sessions. He thought two justices, sitting in a
private room, ought not to have the power to convict under
this act. They might open the door and call it an open
court, but the public might not know what was going on,
and the object of the amendment was to prevent that.
Mr. FITZROY said this amendment was tantamount to
the abandonment of the principle of the bill. 'lke object of
the amendment was to give delay, which would defeat the
object of the bill ; as in nine cases out of ten, when delay
took place, women would not come forward to make the

cha
Mr.
HENLEY said delay would be inevitable in country
places, as two magistrates were requited ; and when a
complaint was made to one they could not whistle for
another, es they could fur a dog. (Laughter.) He be-
lieved that in practice, the effect would be to hear the
charges at the ordinary petty sessions. He knew of no
other act of parliament by which magistrates had the power
of giving six months' imprisonment and hard labour. lie
was not arguing against giving the punishment, but for
1 giving it under all proper checks. He thought the clause
should be extended to all aggravated assaults, and the term
of imprisonment limited to four months.
Mr. PACKE did not see the use of the amendment. It
was well known that in all cues the petty session was an
open court. The hon. and gallant member opposite seemed
to have forgotten that at present magistrates had the power
of committing tor six months for stealing fruit orvegetables. I
Mr. NEWDEGATE supported the amendment, and
suggested that it should be extended to the usual time and
place foe holding petty sessions, and this being • judicial
matter, he thought the court should be open. The bill
gave power to inflict a penalty of 201., or six months' im-
prisonment, and they surely ought not to subject any man
to such a punishment without the man's being under such
circumstances that he could get legal assistance.
Mr. BARROW said the object of the amendment was to
mind the case to the ordinary petty sessions.
Captain SCOBELL said this was quite a magistrate's
question, and they should recollect that they were nearly all
magistrates, and they should not be very ready to enlarge
their own powers. He perfectly concurred in the amend-
ment. In ordinary assaults they had no such power, and
it would be reversing the order of things if they gave
greater power at the private house than at the petty
11.1.1011/.
Mr. B. CARTER said the object of the amendment was
that there should not be convictions in private houses with-
out the public being aware of what was going on. There
could be no doubt whatever, from the wording of the
clause, that the court should be held openly.
Mr. BARROW said he attached the greatest importance
to publicity, but it could not be gained without the cases
being heard at the usual place and day.
Mr. PHINN thought that the wording of the clause was
" before two or more justices in open court," and It sleek
him that that would fully meet the object of the hes. pea-
Selma.
Mr. NAPIER said that by an existing statate themeless
were already made " an open court."
Mr. CROWDER greed that the addition of the words
•LM Man" weld, in foot, be adding nothing. He
I Ibie dem as wow. "two justices," the weeds
47.... et a pies, where the petty MISSION, ate usually
illistiontualliT Mr. BAnnoW accepted this sogretlea.
Fir. STA LETON proposed the omission of all words
leieefinies the scope of the bill to asemilts apes women and
1, ohlidem, so as to extend its provision to every case of og-
Pireseed assault.
~orli Mr. FITZROY was quite willicg to omit the words, be-
=,he had himself given notice of an amendment to
the language of the clause less ambiguous, namely,
Ile aim the bill apply to assaults on " all females what
MP , Olden all male children whose age, in the opinion of
dm Mergistrates, should not exceed 14 years." Ihe amend-
, proposed by the hon. gentleman would be maim), to
Napa
and title of the bill.
LOIJVAINB suggested that the age specified
eliould be 16 years, instead of 14.
After a few words from Mr. A 01.10143;
I The amendment was withdrawa.
Mr. FITZROY'S amendment was then agreed to.
Mr. PHINN proposed that powers be nto the nage-
trans to order corporal punishment it addition to the
talties already imposed by the bill. It wee impossible to
Ant their eyes to the fact that the evil which the measure
wet Wended to meet was constantly increasing. Since the
premise debate upon the bill there had hardly been two
soneesative days without emu case of extraordinary vio-
lean offered to women or children appearing in the public
OM. They ought not to Wolfe in any spurious philan-
se mawkish sensibility towards the perpetrators of
milersinlieuryt theought These etroimlesook.soerelelynrhthere
-t
personsisol ad
Ilittl cues; for women rarely complained, and
aseldom brought before the magistrates until
% a bad been put upon a long series of illusage by some
*lied surpassing brutality. Rs knew there was a good
dill at feeling against the infliction of corporal punishment ;
but as he supposed no hon. gentleman who happened
to see • roam ill•treating • woman or child
would very carefully measure the weight of the blow
with which be would knock him down, so the legislature
ought not to feel any particular tenderness towards offenders
Of this deseription. Corporal punishment was by no means
MI Ms wit the statute hook as was supposed. No one
iyotail my that women and children deserved lees the pro-
tection of the law than vegetables, dry wood, or saplings •
and by the 7th and Bth Oeo. IV., sec. 30, persons convicted
a second time of stealing or wilfully damaging them articles
to the value of Is. or upwards were liable to the punishment
in question. lie did not think that the powers he proposed
to give to the magistrates would be used recklessly or
wrongly ,• but he was sure that their decisions would be
supported by public opinion. Indeed, one of his main ob-
i,cts was by affixing to this species of offences a shameful
end degrsding punishment, to reader it utterly scandalous
and abhorrent to the minds of our countrymen, and so to
' raise the public feeling at least to the level of the con-
tinent, for hon. gentlemen might not be aware that in
France to give a blow, even to • man, was considered
• very serious offence. With respect to the safeguards re-
quired, in placing the pewees he proposed in the hands of
the justices, there were, to use a very hackneyed phrase,
three courses open to the house. The first was to give •
power of appe il, but to that there were some very serious
objections. As the hen. gentleman (Mr. Fitzroy) had
observed, in moving the second reading, it would be very
difficult to get a woman to appear against her husband ;
cud the Chairman of the Middlesex Session, had mentioned
to him (Mr. Phinn) a case which had occurred that very
morning. It was a very aggravated assault, and the ma-
gistrate, not thinking his power sufficient to deal with it,
had sent it to the sessions ; but when it was called on the
woman did not answer, and of course a wife could not be