The Express.
London, England, 1848-04-08 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, APPAL 7.
Tke LORD CRANCILLO& took his *eat at 6 o'clock.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
SECOND SEADINGs.—BaiI for idsallauaiiter ; Unnecessary
SECOND
Prevention; Bills.
COMM ITTEZ- —Property Tax Bill.
TAXED READINO.—Stamp Duties Assimilation Bill.
THE NEW CLERK ASSISTANT.
The LORD CHANCELLOR announced that le
er Ma
jesty
MaGeorae
jesty
bad been pleased, by letters patent, to appoint J
Shaw Lefevre, Esq., to the office of Clerk Assistant, in the
roots, of Benjamin Currey, Esq., deceaaed.
Her Majesty's letters patent were then read by the clerk,
after which Mr. Lefevre took his seat at the table, and was
congratulated by the Lord Chancellor and several of the
other noble lords present.
BAIL FOR MANSLAUGIITER BILL.
Lonl DENMAN moved the second readingn of this bill.
He had been induced to propose it from finding a
in prison who had been incarcerated for a long time because
the coroner could not take bail in cases of manslaughter,
when in fact, if the par'y had been found guilty, he would not
have been sentenced to a term of imprnoninent one-half as
long as that which he had endured before his trial. The
bill was then read a second time.
Their lordship+ then adjourned at half-past 5 o'clock.

i■N

1

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAT, APRIL
The SPEARXR took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BESINESS.
REPORTS CONSIDERED.CIifton Bridge; Leicestershire Lunatic
Asylum; Magdalen llcariga Antterra;
13F:COND READEXo.—Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill.
REIM IRT.—Mutiny and Marine Mutiny Bill.
NOTICES OF MOTION.--lb Mae Acrovers.—Dr. Bovraireo, on
Tuesday to move, "That it be recommended to the committee sitting
ca the eatimatea to consider whether the sums applied to the public
se without previous parliamentary sanction, and • nun appear
to have amounted lust year to 7,438,010., should not be paid into the
exchaer, and the Mum of the same be subjected to the vote. of the
house.'
CM' Nene, ASP Citterl.4 SMTLAND.—Mr. COW on \Veda.-
day, to move for leave to bring in a bill to promote an csmitabie
ariangemenr of the existMa differences on the subject of the churches
and tWipels in Scotland, commonly known by the name of quoad sacra
churches
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. Romllly, introduced by Kr. Tufnell and Mr. Ilayter,
took the oaths and his seat for Devonport.
BODMIN ELECTION.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON reported, from the Bodmin elec-
tion committee—"That James Wyld, Esq., and Henry C.
Lacy, Esq., have ben duly elected burgesses to serve in the
present parliament for the borough of Bodonn." The
co com-
mittee had also come to the following resolution t a
practice has prevailed at the last election for the borough of
Badmiu, and also at former elections, of io,uing printed
tickets, bearing the value of five shillings each, to voters,
after polling, which tickets were exchanged for re-
freshments, to that amount; but it has not been
proved that these tickets were iasued, or refreshments given,
with the knowledge either of the candidates or their
agents."
WORKMEN EXPELLED FROM FRANCE.
Sir D. 1.. EVANS wished to put a question to the hon.
gentleman the Under-Seeretary for the Colonies, respecting
the workmen who had been so cruelly expelled from France.
Many of them, he understood,
had suffered great cruelty;
some had been driven away without their clothes ; and
most of them had altogether lost their furniture. Many
of them were meet industrious and intelligent persons, who
would be extremely useful in any country. He unrstood
they would not be indisposed to emigrate to the colonies, if
encouragemetit were held nut by the government. He there-
fore wished to ask what facility and encouragement might be
afforded them by government for doing so ; and whether it
would be possible to obtain some reparation for their loss
from the Provisional Government of France ?
Mr. HAWES said the subject had been most anxiously
th coneir sidereobd bi y the government, with the view of assisting
object f possible. Though the hinds colonisation
were only strictly applicable to agriculturalfor labourers, yet,
from the intelligence displayed by these men, there was
every desire to give a favourable consideration to their claim.
Communications bad been made to the colonisation com-
mittee, which had taken up their case, and it was suggested
that, provided some contributions were made for the specific
purpose, government might be able to effect their removal
In all probability these contributions would be cheerfully
raised by pasties connected with the workmen in the dis-
tricts from which they hail gone ; in proof of this, he
might refer to a late public meeting at Nottingham. There
fore he hoped that the object in view would be accomplished.
In answer to a further question from Lord Mantis,
Mr. HA IVES said that many years ago an act had
paved, celled the Land Soles Act, which appropriated a
portion of the funds arising from the sale of lands in the
colonies to the sending out of labourers. All the operations
of the emiaration commitaners were founded on that act.
Mr. GROGAN wished to know whether like assistance
would be extended to those workmen who bad been landed
in Ireland, and were now in the large towns there ; and how
much would be applied in each case ?
Mr. HAWES was not able to specify the amount, but
might do so, if the question was repeated in a few days. He
was not aware that any large number of these workmen had
been sent to the torte towns of Ireland.
Sir D. L. EVANS said the hon. gentleman had not
answered the latter question, este reparation from the French
government.
Mr. HAWES said that was a question which would be
more properly answered by the noble lord at the head of the
foreign deportment.
PRICE OF ORDNANCE MAPS.
In answer to Mr.
Col. ANON said measure, hail been taken for reducing,
in about two months, the present price of ordnance maps of
4s. to So. a sheet, to 2s. the whole sheet, or is. (id., each
quarto sheet. (Hear, bear.)
MANUFACTURE OF PIKES IN IRELAND.
' Mr. J. O'CONNELL said he had givtn notice of a ques-
tion which be intended to put to the thief secretary for Ire-
land, whether the attention of the government had been
drawn to a case in the head police-office of Dublin, whereby
it appeared that an order for the manufacture of pikes had
been traced to an officer of government. Was the hon. gen-
tleman also aware that that man (Kirwan) bad attended one
of the meetings so much denounced in that house, and had
uttered cries of a most seditious character ? Great anxiety was
felt in Dublin on this subject, where the people had suffered
so much from spies. He also wished to know what course
the government meant to pursue—whether that officer would
be retained in the service or not ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE wished the question had been
postponed, as no official account of the transaction had
reached him, and he knew nothing of it beyond the accounts
which had appeared in the public papers, some of which
were extremely contradictory. Therefore he would rather
not commit himself by saying anything abeut it. (Rear,
hear.) Ile might add his belief, that a more meritorious
officer, or a more upright and honourable man than Colonel
Browne, was not to be found in any portion of her majesty's
service, civil or military. ( Hear, hear.) He knew nothing
of this transaction. The man, Kirwan, had alluded to what
be called d irty work; and be must be excused saying that there
was a great deal of strange work going on in Dublin at present
(hear, hear,) which rendered it incumbent on all those who
loved their sovereign and their country, to exercise a more
than ordinary amount of vigilance at the present moment.
(Loud cheers.! He wished not to be understood as offering
any opinion as to the particular transaction alluded to, for
he had really not the means of doing so. (Hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said his principal question was,
whether the notice of the government had been attracted to
the matter. As to "the strange work going en in Dublin
just now," he knew of nothing much more strange than that
an officer of the government should go about ordering pikes
to be manufactured. (Hear)
POOR LA% OFFICIALS.
Dr. BOWRING wished to know if it was the intention
of the government to create a superannuation fund for poor
law officials, sad whether a clause would be introduced into
the biil before the house for that purpose ?
Mr. C. BULLER said that the subject was deserving of
serious consideration, and that it was desirable that there
should be a superannuation had but in consequence of
the pressure of other business he not been able to con-
sider the subject.
SAN JUAN DE NICARAGUA.
Mr. HUME wished to ask whether the account which he
had seen in yesterday's newspaper@ was correct, namely, that
her Majesty's forces had been engage:. in hostilities with the
state of Nicaragua; and whether those hostilities had taken
place with the sanction or under the orders of government
Lord PALMERSTON said that there were no special
orders given by the government. There were general orders
only. The expedition in question was undertaken to recover
two British subjects who hut been taken at San Juan de

Nicaragua.
Mr. lICME —What is the use of diplomacy, if we are to
hose recourse to WaT for such a purpo•ehear.)
Would the noble lord lay the corrapoudt nee on the subject
on the table of the house?
Lord PALMERSTON said he had already promised to
do se.

MEXICO.
Mr. URQUHART wished to ask if her Majesty's govern-
ment had taken measures to secure the rights of British
bondholders in Mexico in the event of a cession of territory
to the United States?
Lord PALMERSTON said that the government did not
think it right to interfere officially, and no steps had been
taken on the point to which the hon. gentleman referred;
but it was evident that, if a state gave to a foreign or a
domestic creditor a mortgage en its revenues, that mortgage
would apply to whatever portion of that state remained, and
no partition of the territory of such state would lessen the
claims of the creditor.
BELGIUM.
Mr. I.:n(IuHART wished to ask if her Majesty's govern-
ment had entered into guarantee of the crown of Belgium,
or in any way had compromised themselves in engagt ments
to maintain, in consequence of recent events on the continent,
the existing Male of things ?
Lord PALM ERSTON said that her Majesty's govern-
ment
had entered into no new engagements whatever with
regard to Belgium or any other portion of the continent.
(Hear.) The house was in possession of the treaties of 1531
and 15.19, which contained certain engagements and guaran
tees on the part of France, Great Britain, Austria, Russia,-
and Prussia, rehiting to Belgium. What those were any
oue might tmiew who referred to the treaties. (Laughter.)
THE CHARTIST DEMONSTRATION.
Mr. H. DRUMMO.ND said that he wished to put a
question to the hon. merri!w? for Nottingham as to the course
he meant to pursue next 100ndaY.. lie bad seen in the
public papers that it had bee's agitated at the meetings
which that hon. gentleman atten,led, wlAit was to be done
in case the house refused to receive the petition to be then
presented. He did not believe that a !Ingle individual in
:rid. It would be
that house would say no to its being rece:
receiyod Nft matter of coarse. (Order, orde.)

sataitientleman
In the petition before the house.
Mr.O'CONNOR said he had given notice on Monday week
last that he would make • motion on the st next Mon-
day on going into committee of supply. He here since learned
that there would be no supply on that night. Came, there-
fore, the noble lord at the head unitye government was kind
enough to give him an opportty he could not bring the
subject forward on that night, and would be obliged to give
notice for another night. As the petition was one of great
importance, and signed by millions of persons, he hoped the
noble lord would consent to his bringing forward the subject
on Monday.
Lord J. RUSSELL signede should be unwilling that •
petition so numerously s should not meet with every
consideration from the house. (Hear ) Ile did not think
it would be advisable, both because there was other import-
ant business fixed for Monday, and for other renews to which
he would not then refer mere particularly, that the govern-
ment should give up that day. But considering, the im-
portance of the petition, and the circumstance of its being
signed by such numbers, and that every petition of such •
character should have an early consideration,
to he
th woue
sld con-
sent, at the sacrifice of the public business,ubject
being brought under the notice of the house on Fridays
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT wished to put a (motion relative tothe
notice which had been published touching the meeting prto
posed to be held on Monday. (Oh, oh.) Ile wished
know whether the notice applied to both the meeting and
the procession, or to the procession only ? Ile asked the
question because very intelligent parties held different
opinions on the point, and the newspapers themselves did not
agree in the interpretation to be put upon it. He was afraid
that a difficulty might arise from say misunderstanding, and
the right hon. gentleman would admitat hurt)he w
re as • dif-
fsrence between the two cases. (Hear, lf the people
might meet quietly, it was one thing, and if they were not
permitted to march through the streets in great numbers
it was • different thing. (Hear.) If there was any misun-
derstanding on this point there might be a risk of collision ,
and disturbance, which every member of that house would
wish to avoid. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that the government endeavoured,
is the notice which they publeshed yesterday, to state
as distinctly as possible what the common and statute
law of this country was with regard to assemblages.
Aesecablages, for whatever purpose convened, which
were attended by circumstances calculated to strike
terror into the minds of her Majesty's loyal and peace-
able subjects, and tsmultuous meetings assembled for
the purpose of bringing petitions to either house of par-
liament, and accompanied by an excessive number of per-
sons, were, he believed, illegal. (Hear.) The hon.
pro-
mangentle-
asked whether the meeting, separated from the
sedprocession, would be illegal? That would depend
altogether on the circumstances under which such meeting
was held. Any meeting held under circumstances such as he
before alluded to—that was to say, calculated to inspire
terror and alarm—just terror and alarm into the minds of
her Majesty's loyal and peaceable subjects was, he appre-
hended, against the common law of the land. (Hear,
hear.) And any meeting held for the express purpose of
coming in procession to that house, accompanied with ex-
cessive numbers, for the purpose of petitioning either house
of parliament, was, he apprehended, a violation of the
statute law. (Hear.) But the question of legality or
illegality must depend on the circumstances of each ease.
In order that there should be no misoike, he hoped the
house would allow him to read the dictum of Lord Mans-
field, one of the most able judges that ever sat in the
Queen's Bench, ou the XtiiSioll of the trirl of Lord George
Gordon, in 1781. In his summing up to the jury he said
that a doubt had been thrown out as to whether it was law-
ful to .resent • petition to the House of Commons which
was attended by more than ten persons. But, in conse-
quence of the dear-bought experience of the consequences
o hich resulted uuder pretence of' presenting petitions, an act
of parliament had passed in the reign of Charles 11. forbidding
more than 10 persons from accompanying the presentation
of any petition to the king or either house of parliament.
It was said that the law was repealed by the Bill of Rights,
but he said that be /poke the joint opinion of the judges, in
declaring that the act of Charles 11. was in full force. He
then alluded to the case of the Seven Bishops, and decided
that neither the Bill of Rights nor any other statute had re-
pealed the act of Charles 11., and consequently that the
cteuding a petition to the house, accompanied by more
than 10 persons, seas criminal and illegal. (Hear, hear.)
Such was the open on of Lord Mansfield. But he wished,
as the case of the Seven Bishops had been alluded to by Lord
Mansfield, to refer the hon. gentleman, not to the letter of
an act of parliament, but to what the constitutional law
was. This subject was discussed in the 12th vol. of the
"State Trials," namly, that for the year IbBS, when
this trial took place. Judge Powell, who was dismissed from
bis office for asserting the right to petition, drew a distinc-
tion between the right to petition and the right of tumul-
tuous petition accompanied with a large demonstration of
physical force for the purpose of overawing the legislature.
(Hear, hear.) The subject had an undoubted right to peti-
tion, but it should not be in a criminal or en illegal manner,
and be hoped no idea would go forth that the course the
government was taking was founded on any desire to restrict
in the slightest degree any portion of the people of this
country from petitioning that house. (Hear, hear.)
In answer to a question from Lord It. 0110S1ENOR,
Sir G. GREY said the only notice he had received of the
meeting he had collected from the published announcement of
the chartist body themselves, and signed by three indi-
viduals, one of whom represented himself to be the secre-
tary. It was announced in that notice, that the object of
the parties who issued it was for the purpose of assembling
the people to the number, it was said, of 300,000; but with
regard to that he expressed no opinion—(cheers)—in order
to make a great demonstration of physical force in faviur of
a particular question, and to accompany a certain petition to
the door of the house.
Mr. O'CONNOR—WiII the right hon. baronet allow me
to ask him whether he has received a deputation to-day from
the parties who issued the notice on the subject ?
Sir G.GREY said that three individuals, who represented
themselves to be members of the national convention, at-
tended at the Home-office to-day, and saw the Under-Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department, in the presence of
the Attorney-General and Mr. Hall; but he, himself, was
not able to be present. Ile had, however, received a letter
from these three persons, which, with the permission of the
house, he would read. (Hear, hear.) The letter was dated
—" Home-office, half-put two o'clock, p.m.--Sir We, the
undersigned delegates appointed by the national convention,
beg to inform you that the national convention never has
advised, and they repudiate:the idea of calling, an armed as-
semblage or procession, and we can assure you, on the part of
ourselves and the national convention, that we shall discoun-
tenance any attempt to create disorder or break the public
peace. We, therefore, avail ourselves of this opportunity of
informing you that the procession will take place on Monday
next, and in the event of any disturbance taking place, be
assured it will not be caused by those who join in the pro-
cession. We are, &c., G. W. M. Reynolds, E. Clarke, and
J. Wilkinson." oh.)
Sir R. H. INGLIS—I wish to ask the right hon. ba-
ronet whether, through his undersecretary, he condescended
to receive three individuals as the representatives of a na-
tional convention sitting is London ? (Cries of " Oh, oh !")
Sir, the house may cry " Oh, oh !" but I respectfully insist
that I have a right to ask the question. Does the right hon.
baronet not recognise the existence of • national convention
existing in London by condescending to receive a letter from
three of its representatives?
Sir G. GREY—The answer I have to give the hon.
baronet is, that the three gentlemen who attended the
Home-office to-day were not recognised as delegates of the
national convention. (Cheers.) It was distinctly stated to ,
them by the under-secretary that they were not received as
delegates of the national assembly, but as coming from a
meeting held at a certain house, and in that character only
they were received. (Cheers.)
Mr. WAKLEY wished to put a question to the right hon.
baronet in connexion with this subject. During the last
month it had been publicly stated that this meeting would
take place, and that there would probably be 500,000 pre-
sent. (Olt, ob.) Hon. gentlemen might cry " Oh, oh,"
but he believed there were 500,000 people in this county,
and 500,000 who felt that they were not represented in that
house. (Cheers.) He wanted to know how it was, if this
proces-ion was illegal, that the people did not receive infer-
=alien from the government on the subject before. (Cheers.)
Sir G. GREY—Simply because I had not received that
information which the hon. gentleman, better informed than
the gaverament, seems to have had. (Loud and protracted
cheering.) It is true it was stated some time ago that a great
meeting would take place in the metropolis about the 11th
of April, but the first published advertisement which I saw
of any such intention was only received the day before yes-
terday, on which a cabinet council was held, and the notice
which was published yederday decided on. (Cheers.)
Mr. WAKLEY--As the right hon. gentleman has more
than answered my question, and alluded to me particularly,
and as the cheers which his remark elicited—(order, order,
chair, chair)—
Sir It. INGLIS—I rise to order.
The SPEAKER. said, if the hon. gentleman rose to put
another question he was quite in order, but if he rose to
debate the subject he was out of order, there being no ques-
tion before the house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY—Then I move that this house do now
adjoura—Haugliter), in order that there may be a question
before the house. (Hoar, hear.) The right hon. gentleman
said that be had a better knowledge on this subject than the
government possessed. He could state positively that he
attended no meeting whatever on the subject of the petitioho
n,
and lie had no direct communication with those persons w
called themselves the National Convention in relation to it.
He derived his information the subject from a newspaper
which was the property of an hon. member of that house.
He had no other source of information, and he could not help
thinking that the people had been unjustly treated in being
allured—
Lord INGESTRE—I rise to order.
Mr. WAKLEY, in being allured into the supposition
that their meeting would not be interfered with, by reason
of the government not giving
.any earlier announcement that
they would suppress the meeting on account of its illegality,
although such meeting bad been announced for some weeks.
He regretted such conduct because it was likely to be at-
tended with great public calamity.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR seconded the motion. The persons
who were concerned in getting up this demonstration had no
right to suppose that their meeting end procession would be
interfered with, because in 1643, when the right hon. baronet
was inuffice, a procession of a similar nature, for similar
()hints, and announced in the same language, had taken
place. At the time of the Refo:m Bill from 100,000 to
1:.0 000 persons filed in procession before the Home-office.
In Ma a petition, accompanied by 100.000 persons, Was pre-
sented in favour of the Dorchester labourers; and a slhort
time since they SaW the procession of sailors. The natural
conclusion to be drawn from Chao precedents was that the

preserve the peace.
fiction that if the people had been told in time
that the meeting would be auppreaed they would not
assemble, but now it was too late, and many of them could
not be prevented coming. He recollected the time when
thaw who were now in office declared that taxation without
representation was tyranny, and ought to be resisted ; and
it was hard that the schoolmasters 'should now coerce and
Hog their pupils for learning too well the instruct
would not
ion
they themselves had given. (Hear, bear.) He
shrink from the responsibility thrown upon him. He was
not the man to sneak out of his determination. It was his
intention to attend the meeting—to come down to West-
minster with the procession. It was not for the noble lord
and the right hon. gentleman the member tor liarwich (Sir J.
C. Holthouse), from whom he had learned his levion,to come
down at the eleventh hour, when every preparation was
made for this meeting, and say that they intended
to suppress it. He believed in his soul and con-
science that those who were to take part in that meeting
Pad no more notion of disturbing the public peace than he
hed--(laughter), and he had no nation of disturbing it.
(Hear, hear.) He had been told by the hon. alderman below
him that he would he the first to be shot on Monday if he
came with the procession. However that might be he
H
should hold it his duty to he with the posple and to take the
lion's share of the danger. (ear, hear.) '
baronet had no right to presume that these who got up this
demonstration—and he was not one of them—did so with a
view of committing en infraction of the peace. (Oh, oh.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the hon. gentleman had truly
said that precedent had a great deal to do with the preoent
question. But what had taken place in 1813, when be
was Secretary for the Home Department, differed in two
points from the present case. In the first place, the petition
of 1843 did not emanate from • meeting publicly convened
in the neighbourhood of the metropolis, and under the cir-
cumstances which the right hon. gentleman opposite said
would attend the meeting to be held on Monday next. The
petition of 1843 Was brought from a private house, and not
from a public meeting.
/dr. O'CONNOR.—It was brought from Lincoln's-inn-
fields.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was ,peaking from recollection ;
but besides, there was no notice previously given that a pro-
cession would come to this house from the place where the
meeting was held. If that procession was attended with
circumstances like the present he certainly should have
failed in his auty —being responsible tor the peace of the
metropolis—it he hail consented to allow a meeting to be held
such as that of which notice w given for Monday,in i and
which the right hon. gentleman declared to be illegalt,
character. lie did not think such a meeting ought to he
counteoanceil. (Cheers.)
Mr. HORSMAN thought the house would act in assn-
just and ungenerous manner if they did nut give every •
once to those who were responsible um the peace of the coun-
try, on the present ocessien. They should form their opinion
of the propriety of the meeting from its character and not
from the objects to be discussed or the numbers whoions at-
tended it. It could not be doubted that great apprehens
were entertained from this meeting, and for the sake of those
who entertained those apprehensions, and for then
of the public peace, he was prepared to plimplicit
confidence in the government. (Hear.)
Mr. AI& man THOMPSON said he was glad that he had
given way to the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, be-
cause he believed his sentiments were those of every mean
her of that house. (Hear, hear, and no, no.) He was not
the person who said that if the hon. member for Nottingham
appeared in the procession, certain cons, quences would fol-
low. (Laughter.) But he was surprised that the hon. gen-
tleman should say that he had no port in getting up the
procession which was to take place on Monday neat.
Ile begged to ask the hon. member for ;Nottingham,
whether he hail not attended a meeting in a certain coffee-
house in Cripplegate, and whether he had not made use of
the following language there ? (Hear, hear, and cries of
" Read, reed.") The hon. gentleman here read a I eport of
a speech alleged to have been delivered by the hon. member
for Nottingham, in which he said that there was no use in
petitioning the Rouse of Commons any longer ; that thi y
must do what America hal done, shake off the yoke. It
was better to die by the sword than live in slavery. The
people of Ireland would not be satisfied with repeal, but
would have a republic. Ile implored of them to rem
demHis
ber
the 10th of April and spoke of it so a glorious desmust ember
do
moral force would put down physical force. They
away with all titles as they del in France, and put down
royalty, as tea expensive to the country. That was the re-'
port of the hon. gentleman's speech, which had been put
into his hands by a respectable solicitor, and it formed agreat
contrast to the language which the hon. gentleman used in
that house. (Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNOR declared solemnly that the report which I
the house had just heard was not what he had said. lie
never was a republican. And he wrote article after article i
against that form of government. So help him God he never
mentioned a word about doing away with titles. lie had
before declared in that house that he was not for a repeal of
the union, but for separation. lie did not think be odd a
word about France. lie would produce witnesses to
show that be had not used the language im-
puted to him, and he could not have done so be-
cause the sentiments it contained were not his.
If such opinions as those referred to by the hon. member had
been entertained by him, he should not have hesitated to
avow them in that place but the fact was there was not one
speech which had been read to the house.
Mr. lit MEsaid that it was of the utmostimportance for the
house not to allow its attention to be diverted towards what
took place at meetings held out of doors, for they were all aware
how liable such proceedings were to misrepresentations, and
how often they had been distorted to suit particular purposes
when occasion reoaired. The hon. member fur Westmoi e-
land before he made such a statement as that which he had
just done, should have obtained a report of the speech attri-
buted to the hon. member for Nottingham trona a short-hand
writer. lie did not deny that speeches had been delivered
at public meetings calculated to create great anxiety, and
urging the people to commit acts of violence. But such re-
ports as that of the hon. alderman ought to be re-
ceived with great caution. They were all aware of the fre-
quent resorts which had been had to spies by the Government
authorities, who were as capable now as they bad proved
themselves formerly to be, of poisoning the minds of the
people and of leading them astray. He recollected having
himself arrested a spy who had gone to create disaffection in
the manufacturing districts, and who carried with him for 1
I that purpose a number of seditious bills, with the view of
I *carding them about those townie. The hon. member for I,
Lambeth went with him in order to 'with this man ; but Lord I
Sidmouth dismissed him, instead of ordering him to be de- I
tained and called to account for his conduct. He was only'
1 the third spy he had been accessory to taking. (A laugh.)
, He regretted to see the house treating the subject with
'hilarity. That showed they were ignorant of what was
going on in the country. There had been a time when the
ministers of the crown ;lad not hesitated to employ spies,
who first seduced the people into acts of violence, and then '
betrayed their dupes to the gallows. The employment of
those spies, and the printing of the placards which they car-
ried about with them, were distinctly traced to the govern-
ment. When they saw men out of work arid starving
in the streets, could it be otherwise than abhorrent to
know that the government spies were poisoning their
minds and inciting them to commitacts of violence? ("Oh!")
lie was speaking of what had formerly taken place, not of
the conduct of the present miniders If he had not confi-
dence in them he would not sit where he did, he would
move to the other side, fur he should not think it safe to be
so near them if he thought they did not despise such con-
duct. If so great a falsehood had been put off upon the
hen alderman as that which he had read for the speech of
the hon. member for Nottingham, there ought, for the satis-
faction of the house and the country, to be some examination
instituted into the circumstances. At all events members
ought to be more guarded in receiving and repeating each
statements. The government ought in particular
hat to be ve
ry
reserved in acting upon any intormation save t which
they procured upon affidavit.
1 Sir D. L. EVANS had never yet been found on the
I side of those who would restrict the public meetings of the
' people, but he was bound to say on the part of his coned-
, tuents, the inhabitants of Westminster, that there were cir-
cumstances which rendered the contemplated pro-
cemion of Monday a peculiar Cat. For 18 years he
had countenanced many public processions and meetings!, but
there were sonic peculiarities which deserved mention—
namely, that it was only a short tune ago that two meetings
had been held, both of a most contemptible character, and
particularly so as compared with the proposed meeting, but
still it was his duty to state that, notwithstanding that con-
tempt, those meetings had created considerable alarm
(Hear, hear.) He could assure the house that not only had
there been great alarm created at those comparatively small
meetings, but also that numbers of his constituents had
suffered materially in their business. (Hear, hear.) There-
fore he conceived it to be his duty to entreat the government
to have some regard for his own immediate constituents, and
if the hon. member for Nottingham persisted in his present
determination, he begged to inform him that it was veiy
much to be wished lie would direct his columns elsewhere
than into Westminster. For even if there were no disturb-
ance, there would be a great interruption to business, occa-
sioning farther loss to tradesmen who were not able to sustain
their present adverse circumstances. Ile concurred with
the hon. member for Cothermouth th the circum-
stances of the times, both domestic and foreign,
were unprecedented, and that the hour was come when
every man—every honest man—(cheers)—every ta:111
not destitute of courage and sincerity, and more espe-
cially every liberal man, was bound to declare what side he
was prepared to take. In that spirit he was prepared to
state that he gave his willing assent to the measures adopted
by the government.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that the hon. member for Not-
tingham had just declared that he had never joined a society
for repeal, but had been a member of an association for ef-
fecting a separation between Ireland and England. He
begged to ask the hon. member how it was that he had for-
merl been enrolled as a repealer and accepted by the society
as suych, and in that capacity alone? He hoped that those
of his unhappy countrymen who had been led away by the
hon. member, and particularly those who contemplatedjoin-
ing the procession on Monday, would take warning from his
declaration of that night, and determine to act as their kins-
men in Ireland ad done, namely, not to have anything to
do with the honh. member. (Cheers.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR rose eon co
He nrrecteve a mistake
enrol com
himself
as a member of a real association. He becam e a member
of a society of which the late Mr. D. O'Connell was a pree-
minent member, and the only engagement he entered into
was that he would immediately provide himself with a
musket and a knapock.

allusion to the ,
Id proosedings
had to lay to
'ober had ut-
house that
in a body
' and the

to the - -
--
house would find, on referring to the print - declaratthat
ion,
that such an intention was therein announced, and
printed document was signed by three of the chartist
leaden, Nevertheless, the hon. member now asserted that
such a proceeding was not intended. What then would
have been the effect, if, as the hon. member for Finsbury
had urged, the government bad taken steps to prevent the
procession some weeks ago? Would it not have been
immediately said that tie ministers had acted prema-
turely, for they had nothing to go upon, and the hon.
member's present declaration would be referred to as a proof
that there was no intention to approach the House of Com
mons in vast numbers.? With tepee% to the character of '
the intended procession, ho must first observe that every
case of that kind depended on itself alone. He was ready to
admit that there were occasions when it was not necessary to ,
resort to the strict letter of the law in regard to public meet-
ings and processions. But there were times when such pro-
ceedings produced a most disquieting effect, and the only
question for the house and the government to consider was,
whether the present case should lie referred to the former or
the latter category. Why, the hon. member himself must
be aware of die guilty hopes and designs which had been
raised and created by the occasion of the intended meeting.
probated
at member hod told the house that he had been re-
the meetings whic`e he attended el where—re-
probated for what ?—for improper conduct. For expressiag
Ins attachment to royalty and its institutions. (Hear, bear.)
After such avovrals, perhaps the hon. member would
permit him (Lora J. Russell) to offer him some friendly
advice. He had told the house that he saw '
no reason why the procession projected for Monday
should not be allowed to take place in the same manner that
former processions had been permitted to have effect. The
government, however, looking at the circumstances of
the times and the occasion, had consulted the crown law-
yers, having also regard to the declarations uttered and
printed by the parties promoting the procession and meet-
ing. They then thought it their duty to inform all peeving '
that the meeting was illegal, and to warn them against at-
tending the procession. Had there not, he asked, been a
sufficient warning given ? Were not three days a sufficient
period of time for the penons promoting the meeting to re-
consider and alter their decision ? Those persons might
have thought that the proposed meeting was not illegal—
that there were precedents for it, and that it would be per-
mitted. They now knew that the government had declared
it to be illegal, and that it had excited a great degree
Wof terit
-
ror and alarm in the minds of peaceable persons. as
not the duty of the hon. member for Notting-
, ham, as he did not share the sentiments of those persons
who called for • republic, to dissuade the promoters of
the meeting from holding it? Was it not his duty to
show them an example by publicly avowing his determine-
tion not to join it Could he not state to them with truth
that their petition would be respectfully received, and that
every opportunity would lie afforded for a fair discussion of
what was styled the per charter ? Let it be hoped that
the hon. member would not carry out the determination
which he had expressed, but that he would advise those who
look,d up to him as their guide not to persevere in their
projected attempt to overawe the deliberations of the puha-
ment hy an illegal assemblage and procession. (Hear.)
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL merely rose to say that the hon.
member's statement respecting a musket and a knapsack was
wholly without foundation. The society to which he re-
ferred was put down by an act of parliament passed in lbil.
It was formed upon principles distinctly opposed to the sepa-
ration of Ireland from England, and its views were peace-
able, and not those which a musket and knapsack would
suggest. But perhaps what he said was quite unnecessary,
as the house was probably already aware that the hon. mem-
ber's statements were often compounded more from his ima-
gination than from facts.
Sir R. PEEL said, that if he rose on the present occasion
to say a word, his doing so was caused by the hon. mimber
fur Nottingham having mixed up his name in the discussion,
by stating that the conduct of the government, in 1543,
offered a precedent which ought to be the guide of the go-
vernment on the present occasion. He recollected no set of
the government of 1ri.13 which ought to fetter the discretion
of her Majesty's ministers. lle knew it bad been said that
there were occasions in former years when processions of the
people were allowed to approach the House of Commons.
But that was only be indulgence of the executive govern-
ment. The Spitalfields weavers had been permitted to
follow that course. But under the prevent circumstances the
numbers which it was expeceted would constitute the pro-
jected procession were too great to be permitted to take that I
proceeding. He thought the government had acted pru-
dentiy in not having interfered sooner. He thought it would
have been said, as the noble lord had intimated, that there '
was no intention to violate the law. The present was the
time when the government might properly express its inten-
tions; and, with reference to the precedent said to have
been established in 1843, he must say that, considering the
eireumstances of the times, as well foreign as domestic, and
taking also into regard the state of the public mind at pre-
sent, if 100,000 people were to be permitted to parade the
streets, it was impossible to foresee the consequences, and, in
his opinion, the government hid acted rightly in taking the
course they had done. For it must be remembered that con-
siderations of humanity alone ought to have prompted them
to impose the restrictions on the people which they had done,
and if they had not taken those precautions those who now
denounced them for having done so would be the very first
vehemently to impeach them and, in that case, he admitted
with much more reason than they now had done. (Hear.)
The SPEAKER—Does the hon. member for Finsbury
intend to persevere in his motion that this house do now
adjourn ?
Islr. WAS LEY said that he would, with permission,
withdraw it. Ile must however remind the hon. member
for Westminster (one of whose constituents he was), that he
had not forgotten, and he hoped the people would not forget,
the declaration made by that hon. member in 11431, that if
the Reform Bill was thrown out, he was ready tolput himself
at the bead of 100,000 men, and march down to that house
to compel them to pass it.
Sir D. L. EVANS was quite ready to enter, at a proper
time, into an explanatim of the difference between the two

MPS.
The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILL.
Sir G. GREY deeply regretted that the spirit of sedition
which was displayed amongst certain classes, and the lan-
guage tending to excite an insurrection for the purpose of
subverting the institutions of the empire, had rendered it
necessary for the government to come forward and ask the
houso to consent to an alteration of the law, in
order to enable them to meet the circumstances of
the times. Nothing was further from the intention of
ministers than to ask parliament to place any restriction on
the deliberation out of doors which attended political events.
Still less was it their desire to restrict the liberty possessed
by every Englishman, Seotchman, and Irishman to draw up I
petitions and to approach the house with the expression of
their opinions on the state of public affairs. That right con-
stituted the great basis of the constitution, and to its exercise
were due the liberties of the people, and their power of re-
sisting their invasion by the crown, and to that right alio
was mainly attributable the happy position of England
amidst the universal overthrow of the thrones of Europe.
There existed on the part of the people of England a deep-
seated conviction that the peaceful enjoyment of liberty
which was observed amongst them was the result of the con-
stitution. But there were limits even to those rights ; and
when under
when those houndories were transgressed,
and
pretence of discussing political questions treason was spoken,
was it to be mid that government was to be deprived of the
power of meeting those occasions ? lie would not enter into
a detail of ewe. proofs which he had to offer of the treason-
able lanctuage ich had been uttered at public meetings.
The daily newspapers offered too many examples of that
language. The right hon. Bart. opposite had referred to the
events which had taken place in foreign countries; and al-
though he was ready to admit that those occurrences had
not produced any ill effect in the minds of the mass of well-
informed people, still they had had a very considerable in-
thence over the actions of a great number of persons, and
he was induced in consequence to propose the measure which
he was about to submit to the house. During the last three
weeks, the lanrnage that had been held at certain public
meetings in Ireland was incompatible with the security of the
I peaceful inhabitants of that kingdom, and their enjoyment
of those institutions under which more freedom was
guaranteed to them than was possessed by any other nation
in Europe. The government had bees reproached for not
having taken steps sooner to repress those treasonable
speeches which, he regretted to say, had been too willingly
listened to by those who heard them. The Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland bad directed his attention to them.
At first, he treated them as mere ravings, but
tinning that they had produced dangerous effects,
and that they hail stimulated disaffected persons to avow
their designs, and to endeavour to combine with foreigners
to render the present institutions of Ireland insecure, the
Lord Lieutenant felt that it became his duty to take some
steps to check those proceedings—to put a stop to the sedi-
tious speeches and writings of those who promoted them, and
thus to obviate the evil effects which they produced. Fur
that purpose prosecutions were instituted for sedition against
certain partits. What was done in consequence by those
parties? Was the government met by an intimation on
their part that they would in future conform to the law ?
No such thing. The ministers of the crown were met
by a declaration of an intention to resort to open violence, and
were told that, ism...much as they were indicted for sedition,
they were now anxious to commit high treason. (Hear.)
When he used the word high treason, he was afraid he
might he misunderstood. He might lie asked why the go-
vernment had not prosecuted those persons for high treason.
But, it must he observed. that sedition and high treason were
difficult to distinguish, although it might turn out that those
who thought they were only committin sedition, had ren-
dered themselves liable to be punished for the graver offence
--end to he subject to the extreme penalty awarded to that
crime. But, it must be recollected that the persons who
talked in this manner were lawyers, or law-advised, and that
whilst exciting others to treason, they thought they were
quite safe themselves. But, in this, he thought they might
hereafter find themselves mistaken, for if by those exciting
speeches others had been induced to commit acts of treason,
those who so incited those crimes by their speeches might be
brought within the pale of the law of high treason. However,
as yet no overt acts of treason had been committed, and this
enfunderation brought him to the immediate statement which
he had to make on the subject et the measure which he had
to propose to parliament. In the Nation newspaper would
he found detailed in.tructions for the construction of barri-
e.des, and sheering how the Queen's troops might best be
interrupted and even murdered by missiles from the win-
dows of houses, whilst performing their duty. This species
of street warfare had been studied by these who described it,
and the writers in the paper he had named did not hesitate
to deelarnthat their object waste. drive the Queen's represen-

Wire, the Lord Lieutenant, out of the kingdom, and to in-
Mal a republican government there. Oa the
as haviag
23rd of
March he found the following speech reported
been delivered by Mr. Mitchell, at one of the meetings to
which he bad referred :
am charged with writing seditioes artklee, having • tendency to
inflamer..th.ticeternltilhodearino:fiothLe.nirpeowel:p6Ntiedniteynithtti.e:.aci:tea::dt,i.,iieconuclie.dfkcTenwtioott-:dnlte.,(hditee:lene_rwriwn:th,.dtc:
they should be wen-affected -towarda the government, of England.
(Loud cheers.) On tbe day this confeleratiun was ormed, 1, as you
remember, came forward and declar, d fay,elf a disaffected subject,
and promised to denote myself continually to excite disaffection in
tat pr ("
an hear," and loud cheering.) I think I have kept
that promise; and, come what may, I will continue to do et. (Loud
cheers.)
person who spoke thus wan one of those who had
been The
firmest by the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland and the
law officers of the crown there, undi T the
e jurguiltyisdiction outtering
f the
law, and who, even if he were fronof
such speeches as the above, would only be subjected, as a
punishment for his offence, to a moderate fine and im
prisonment. Another of the persons indicted, Mr. C. G.
of
fextht sepehat,r,.toiwiehosfocunwdotrht
DhfsodeulidiwffoarmEo'iiilad: dthreewNatht'e."&,ttweasntitohr:
report contained in the papers of that person's
people- guiltys ag.aniityatolef manpt
atommeopwtdi uo saffectionn,
this
government,of t e
which keep. its footing on our soil by .beer brute force, and by
nothing else. (Loud mien of Hear, hear.") And We I tell you,
that until that government he thoroughly upect, I shall not wane to
write, to !Teak, to a, t s
outh. One circumstance alone shall stop
Ime in thia career-my deuth. (Loud awl enthwitustic cheers.) In
tbeir mum of law we shall take issue with them boldly e
vilely. If we do not throw them there, we shall throwthem on a
I brooder field. (Vehement cheering.) It must be dose. The news
this morning announces that Vienna is in the bands of the people..
(Renewed cheering.) Dublin mutt he in the kande of the people it
(Enthwdastie and deafening cheers.) Stand by us, citizens, and
Khali be done. (Crier of "We will, we will.")
Such was the language uttered by thew persons, and those
who were in the habit of reading these speeches would he
aware that the more violent and treasonable the expressions,
the more vehement wait the applause with which they were
greeted. On the same day Mr. Reilly came forward to pro-
' pose the formation of a national guard. lie (Sir G. Grey)
must warn the house against adopting the supposition that
I ibis proposal was merely sedition, fur it might turn out to
be a far graver crime. The speech attributed to Mr. Devin
Reilly was as follows .
Mr. Devin Reilly then came forward to propene a resolution fee the
organisation of a national guard, and in doing so was vehemently
cheered. Ile ould he war eatistled that the country would see in that
evening's meeting a sped beginning. (Cheers) It was his high
privilege to propose, that they ehou.d take that evening the
first ti
a
step in the broad path of freedom-(cheer) -to propose the of
serim of steps for which his soul had long hungered, and for the want
of which tens, of thoammln f his murdered buritrymen had perished
-the formation of an armed national Ruled in Ireland. (Loud
cheers.) This resolution called on the council of the confesleretion to
inquire and report on the best aid mood effectual means of ore:raining
and arming such a body. (Loud cheering.) That watt their
:piece., to Lord Clarendon. (Cheers.) For every one of
them he might imprison, hundreds would be ready to
take their place. Fur every leader of iMpOrtaaCe impri-
soned, they would arm ten thousand men. (Loud cheers.) For every
hour he confined them, they would shorten his rule in Ireland by sue
hundred day,. For every hair of their heads he touched for every one
be hanged; but he would not talk to them of hangine, for if there
wan sufficient manhood and devotion amongst them, long before
things arrived at such a paw they would wen the gaols with their
pickazes and creators. long before that day every street of Dublin
might be a barricade or fortress, and every pavement carpeted with
blood. (Great applause.) Lena before that day they would show the
tyrant out of Ireland by the light of the burning genl.t. (Cheers.) Be-
fore that day every field in Ireland must be fought, every ditch
defended, and every ricer obtain a notorious memory to the
throughout future ages. Aye, and if they were driven into
the remotest corners of their beloved island, they would
make the graves of their murdered countrymen the Diet
nding-ground for the defence of their precious liberties,
(Cheeru) If they were to fall, let them nobly fall-if they conquered,
their must do AO by their own right bandit. While they had arms in
their hands they might defy the whole world-without them .hey
were at the beck of every petty constable. (Dear.) Four months
ago, when the Coercion Bill was introduced, he called on the people
toeat hall to arm. (Cheers.) Now he called on them a second
tim to arm, arm, arm! (Loud cheers.) Had they armed four
months ago, they would be four mouths nearer their liberty thet day.
Let then lira! DOW; and when they had armed, they would be re* is,
and not sooner. (Cheer.) When they were willing to aid themeelves,
God would awist them, and not before. (Cheers.) They had
wanften
been told about Ireland's opportunity, and that the time not
' yet come. Now, he would tell them that no time was opportune
to a nation which was not prepared to go out at any moment
and tweet its rights. (Immense applause.) It wan slaves
only who waited for opportunities-a nation of brave men should
wasaays prepared. (Cheers.) A great movement of the people
musing over the world. (Cheers.) Democracy bad wafted the
Alps and entered Austria. Last week be was in Paris, and there
emashed the strongeet dynasty in the world. (Loud emphatic.) Ile
would preeently came to Ireland. fCheere.) soo,o°o Englishmen,
chartists, would useemble in London next week, and then they would
have London in their hands. ," hear, hear," and cheerful Ile pro-
mired them, :is a brother, that whether that time came tooter or
later, the dirt budge in England would he answered in Ireland. (Loud
cheers.) Let them wait for that day, and prepare for it, by arming
tie inselven; and, tilt that day arrived, lie had but one advice to glee
them, and that advice was, to "P ut their duet in God keep
their powder dry."
From another of the speeches it would seem that a tree,
sortable appeal hail been made to a foreign country to help
these persons to overthrow the established government and
Ito institute a republic in Ireland. The speech to which be
referred was printed in the papers as follows:
Mr. C. O. Duffy, of the Safi ot, then came forward and was re-
ceived with loud cheese. lie ,aid he had newe far them from Mr.
fisnith O'Brien. He thought they knew tint he was no boaster. Ile
believed that they could trust in what he said, and felt that he said
only what he intended to do. lie (Mr. O'Brien) received lest week
en address from a certain Irish club in Pans, and the answer to that
address excited a storm of curiosity. The Morning Chromic!.
received that day exprewed great annoyance that it could not lay
its banns upon it, and the Lord Liententuat would give his eye
out for it but they would be generow-they would give it
to him for nothing. (Cheers.) Here it Wail. Mr. O'Brien said,
anewer to the el
to which he referred, " I have seen enough
of France to eoneinte me that she IS able and willing, if invited, to
make an effort to send so,uto her moot valued citizens to support
the nation in a struggle." (Great cheering.) The =ewer of
Lomartine had been received, and, like all state documents, it
meant not
; but he thought they could be indifferent to it, after
the promisee of one of they truest men ringing in their ears.
(Cheers.) The union Was repealed. (Cheers.) Ile thought so that
Morning, bus he had 34000 tulditknal remain for believing that it
was repealed. (Cheers.)"
He did not read this extract with the intention of having it
believed that he attacked the slightest confidence to the
statement of the disposition on the part of France to send
50,000 armed men to aid the separation of Ireland from
this country. (Hear, hear.) Whatever opinion he might
entertain as to the conduct and views of the Provisional
Government of France, no man could read the answer of
M. De Lamartine to the Irish deputation without respecting
the courage and boldness which dictated that reply-a reply
giving, in the most explicit, ani as he thoroughly believed,
in the most honest, terms, a distinct refusal on the part of
the government to interfere in any way in the internal
affairs of England, or to send any men to this country, or to
Ireland, to aid the deputation in their treasonable
designs. (Hear, hear.) M. De Lamartine had, as a
matter of course, especially under the circumstances
in which he was placed, received these gentlemen with civil-
ity ; but as to assistance from France, the disturbers of the I
public peace in Ireland might wait for it in vain, whatever I
might have been sail to some member of the deputation by
come member of a Parisian club, eagerly caught up by the
Irish emissary in his despair at the wholly discouraging re-
ception given to him by the authorities. (Hear, hear.) Hi
would not impute to a member of the imperial parlia-
ment a design to deceive others, but assuredly Mr. Smith
O'Brien, in his eager enthusiasm, wholly deceived himself,
when he talked of the coming aid of 50,000 French bayonets,
to the designing men et whom he was rendering himself the
tool, and to the excitable band of followers for whose
fate, should they not be in time prevented from
incurring punishment, he would be so deeply responsible.
(Hear, hear.) A Mr. Magee, in seconding the motion,
spoke in still more vehement terms of an appeal to arms in
vie assertion of the cause they had in view. He was sure,
however, he need not read any more than he had read, to
show what was the cuaracter of the advice given by these
men to the excitable crowds they addressed, or what were
the designs which they did not merely not attempt to dis-
guise, but which they unblushingly and fiercely avowed
and lulled in. (Hear, hear) One word he would add,
however, respecting a sentence in Mr. Itlagee's speech,
which described Lord Clarendon as going about and solicit-
ing the protection of the wardens of the Dublin trades, for
he was bound to say, in justice to the large proportion of
the population of that part of the country, that, during the
progreas of this agitation, the Lord, Lieutenant, so far from hav-
ing found it necessary to make any appeal for a manifestation
of confidence in his government, had, so far back as the 27th
March, informed his colleagues at home that an address
hail been presented to him expressive of the fullest confi-
dence in him and in the government, and of the most loyal
attachment to the crown, to the laws, and to the institutions
of the realm, signed by persons of all ranks, professions, and
religious persuasions, mauy Roman catholic clergy and pre-
lates among them, to the number at that date of 140;
and since that date the number of signatures appended,ooo
to
the declaration had been increased to 280,000. (liter, hear.)
He did not, of course, deny that there were manifestations
of much agitation and excitement-that speeches were
delivered to large assemblages of men which greatly tended
to aggravate and extend that feeling of agitation
and excitement - Rpeectles most inflammatory and
tending to most dangerous consequences - but he
had no hesitation in expressing his conviction that, with
regard to Ireland at large, there prevailed in that country a
spirit of loyalty, of devotion to the person of the sove-
reign, and of attachment to the government and to the in-
stitutions of the realm, as vivid and strong as in any part of
the empire. (Hear.) It was for the defence of thin loyal
and well-disposed population, and of the loyal and well dis-
posed population of the realm at large, that the government
-finding the present law too weak for the effectual suppres-
sion of sedition and treason-now came to parliament fur
such an exteasion of the law as would enable them to deal
satisfactorily with cases of this kind-with that political fever
which arose from time to time, and spread terror and
alarm among the peaceful and well-disposed. He
would now proceed to state as accurately as he
could what the law was with reference to offences
of this kind. He would premise that the law in force in
England was not the same as that extant in Ireland on this
subject ; or, at all events, that very grave doubts prevailed
on the point--doubts which bad not before been raised, no
' occasion, fortunately, having before occurred to question the
identity of the law in the two countries. The general law
with respect to treason was that of 25 Edward 111., c. 2,
which, as extended to Ireland by an act of Henry VII., then
applied to the United Kingdom ; so that any deed commit-
ted by a subject of the crown of these realms, coming within
the provisions of this statute, was liable to the penalties of
treason. The acts here contemplated were, the compassing
the death of the king, the levying war against the king, or aid-
ing his enemies to levy war against him, within the realm or
elsewhere. By the 36 Geo 111., c. 7, the law of treason was
materially extended. By that act, which was intended to
inure only during the life of that king, and to the end of
the session of parties ent next following his demise-the act
was passed Dec. 18, 1795-it was provided :
That if any person or persons whatsoever after the day of the paw-
nig of thact, during the rustund life of our most gracious sovereign
lord the Ring inborn Almighty Dad preserve and biter with a long

and prosperous reign) and until the and of the nem „,
mem after a dentine of the crown, shall, within the te.irp-
""
compass, imagine, invent, devise, or tutted death ..d,Z.L.,,.ft10
any bodily harm tending to death or destruction mom or sr- 'i 4nt
tupriamoneutoc reatraint of the person of the samesameNo.2:.-Uda
the King, his heir. and oxiccesaoro, or to deprio. '
them from the style, honour, or kingly name of thevrai dedaT.,="
wpd
this realm, orof any other of his majesty's domino., ow
to levy war against his majnty, kin heirs and inieceicom--„„...u.5i
realm, in order by force or constraint to cosy b„-"n or —"..,_ilt4
change his or their measure, or mune la, or in ihents
or oundmint upon, or to intimidote,or overawe, both 5c0ri,;",„!,..1.11
house of parliament; or ramose Or.: it any foreig,,, roe „ ."..rwat
force to invade this realm, or env other hie
.
or countries under the obeisance of his Majesty, hld is .rt---"hass
molsa
ors; and ouch compassing., imagination.%
intentions, or any of them, shall came., utter, or
irkingsoy printing or writing, or by any overt act deed, '714
ti
legally convicted thereof upon Use oaths of two lawful ma/
witnesses., upon trial, or otherwise convicted or dunned le• he.
°ours, of law, then every mirk prison and perm..
offending shall be deemed, declared, and adj0d,,,,,, ,:,
tmitoro, and shall suffer pains of death, and also 14, antlruesil •
mn
in cares of high treason.
Under this extension of the former act any iwnoe
France, and soliciting aid from the I- reoch people
the existing institutions of the country, ran !mg law
liable to the penalties set forth. The 111th Geo. !IL, Le
as he had said, was designed as only ati rupees, 'e
but be the 57 Oeo. 111., c. 6, the brat seiomes ofthitt
Geo. 111., which he had just read to the hone, wwsmys
perpetual. The latter act, passed in 1819. sae, og
subsequent to the union, and consequently diabta hem
very eerieuely entertained whether. as rendering
a special act pusedbefore the union, it could be
applicable to Ireland. The most authoritelie legal • •
were decidedly against the applicability of renewed Id
to Ireland ; and as a matter of course a.outo. thee • -
of any authority on the part of the goverim -nt total:Wet
offences committed in that country to the pi-visions of the
act. The law, therefore, might be fairly 'Awed as being,('
point of fact, different in the two ooti„t„ In peeks d
principle, however, it was quite clear that no d,frsr
ought to exist. (Hear, hear.) The law u, on this selgog
ought n oat manifestly to be equally applies' le to ..11
f the realm. In Ireland, howcror, tics •; ,„ Dr"
applicable *to treason was the 25 Edw. Ili., i.• which he had
already referred. He believed he might •ay that Ittllati
had dented no practical benefit from the escajajoh he het
stated. On the contrary, he was of opinion that the hatch
measures to which Ireland had been from to time .0.
jetted might have been spared her, hid thi more etfectul
provisions of the treason statutes of Georg. If I. been
cable to her as well as to the rest of the ti-aim. (Hest,
hear.) What wu the consequence of tai.-t the
juncture ? Why this that when the goyoment of be.
land, directing its attention to the dang row, „nonage spokes
by agitators, and to the dangerous off. ms ot that begins
upon the excitable persons addressed, t. il to the law of
Ireland for a remedy, it found the powers or at law inado
Larteettoottheeore repression of the evil. The oils ppticib,
h IPin'rce of which the disturber% M. a"" nth,. -
wail a sedition law, under which the °fiend, r. A:ger:G-8:4
at liberty to put in bail, a circumstance placing delay in tilts
way of their trial, and giving them the opixir unity. if they
chose to incur the additional risk, of see kihg. is the em.
throw of the institutions under which they It.. 4, to relies*
themselves from any trial at all—thus colic. ni g their any
crime into a mode of livening its consequeo.c.o. As to the
mode of dealing with the case, it hod been suggidted that the
simple course would be to pan an act, ens iid.ng the Ist ate.
ties of the act 36 Oeo. 111., c. 7, made a perpetual let by
57 George iii. c. 6, to Ireland, whereby toe same law
would be made to prevail in both countis. lie quite
agreed that the same law should be enforced throavhont all
portions of time kingdom. But there ahothi-r point fug
to be considered. The range of the act woo very properly
111110. t sweeping and comprehensive • out it. penoltiel, at the
same time, were, it must be admitted, of extreme severity, and,
as such, altogether opposed to that mitigation or our criniad
code which, from time to time of lace years, had bem
effected by the legislature. (Hear, he_r.) Titers had
rightly been a great change in public opinion n the sat*
of the offences which should meet with capital punishment,
and the government was perfectly ready, in the Arent
smatter, to meet, as nearly as possible, public opinion. fts
did not propose, therefore, to extend the act is it stood le
Ireland, nor to continue it as it stood to England. He did
not desire to perpetuate or to enact any statutory proshim
at variance with the progress of late years in crininallegis.
lotion. (Hear, hear.) At the same ton, ho nad no item
Lion of repealing that part of the statute o loch indicted the
penalty of death for the offence of compassiog or denting
the death or imprisonment of the sovei sign-- I hear, bar)
-though, even were they to repeal it, he bell. cad the ord.
nary treason law would visit such a crime will death. He
proposed to repeal all the other portion. ot the *Win le
fticting the punishment ot death for the offeams reset
therein, and he then proposed to re-enact tile merino is
other respects—for Ireland as well as for the rest of Me
kingdom-substituting, however, for the offence of Willa
that of nigh treason, and for the pain of deo+, the pen&
ment of transportation for life or, at the discnti uof the judge,
for a term of years, not less ;hen seven. This sou the sub-
stance of the proposed manure-(hear, heal-but there en
another material point to which he must advert. The pro-
visions touching the devising or imagining the deposition of
the sovereign, or the levying war wiliest hi r, &c., would
meet mach of the public offence which he was now deem.
shop; to the house, but it would not meet all the evil. It soak
have been observed that, in expressing the mode of such con.
peeling or devising, the act had only prohibited the
publishing a declaration in writing, or by men
act. Now it would he an overt act in a party to so to
a foreign country and invite foreign aid against his own
sovereign or the institutions of his own country,bot a penm
on a platform in Dublin or elsewhere, however he might ad.
vocate the theory of such a change, provided he did nape
forth a declaration in writing, might be exempt from the
penalties set forth under the act. He felt it right that CO
reviewing this act, in mitigating its severity, and applying
it to the whole kingdom, no loophole should be lea at CUhs
these gentlemen-who, while instigating others to died.
fection and its penalties, were extremely careful of their on
safety-should by simply omitting themselves to print de. •
clarations which were regularly gathered from their mouths,
and printed in the newspapers, avoid the chastisement n
which they so unscrupulously sought to involve the crowd[
who listened to them. lie therefore proposed to estend
ike
penalties under the act to all such person. as should "In
open unadvised speaking, compass, or imagine, or promote
the said designs." (Hear, hear.) This wan the outstance
of
the bill which he now proposed to lay on the table of the
house-a bill which had the entire saiietion of his noble
friend, the Lord Lieutenant ; and without the provisions of
which, that nobleman, than whom no mail %ay more ear•
nutty devoted to the principles of constitutional liberty, bad
expreosed his entire inability to administer the affairs 'of the
country in a constitutional manner. With the aid of the
measure, however, his noble friend had expreased himself re
perfectly confident in the expectation of beitig able to moire
tam peace anal order, and to make those quail before their
country's laws, who new wholly set them at nought. There
were other measures, which would be necessary accompeed-
mesas to the 'present bill, mea.sures to meet the appeal now
made to the disaffected to arm, but he would not mislup
these measures with that before the home, and which be
now begged permission to introduce. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL felt bound to oppose the introdeo.
tion of this bill. He opposed it from no sympathy with the
criminal agitation which now disturbad bis unhappy omen,
and with the persons who so unscrupulously promoted tbst
agitation, but from the sincere conviction that while the
laws at present in existence were perfectly adequate to tke
suppression of the evil contemplated, the introduction of WI
measure would create the very highest discontent smal
cleans hitherto well-disposed and peaceable.
Mr. hUME quite approved of the mitigation of the fee
visions of this act, and of its extension, in its amended fog,
to Ireland ; but he should decidedly protest against the ur
trcaduction of the clause, which, as he undersuotd it, wait to
gag the free discussion of political subjects.
Lord J. RUSSELL explained that the provision to wind
the hon. gentleman objected, applied not to the free expres-
sion of public opinion, but to speeches directed against the
person or crown of the sovereign.
Mr. HUME said he had no desire to impede the gown*
meat in it. efforts to suppress unlawful agitation; but St
must protest against any gagging clause, such as he nadir.
stood that now proposed to be. Suppose he were to hopper+
to say at some public meeting that he preferred a republic-
(oh, oh.) Well, he would defer any observations on the
provision till it came duly before them.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that, if he stood alone, he
would give his vote against this measure. He seer
surprised to hear the right hon. baronet propose on*
a bill as he had laid on the ;table at the present Jud aad
stine
He should take example by what had happened abroa,
the concessions which had been made abroad. (Hear, hurl
One of the first of those concessions was entire litierty cf thr
press; and yet here was the right hon. baronet raking up o
statute of Edward 111. to effect reetnetions ot the press alni,
of speech In this country. He asked would the House a!
COMMOIIB egree to such an infraction of the constituties
(Hear, hear.) He warned the government that the
brill
would be ineffectual as their Coercion Bill had been. Ile had
then told them to try a special commission they hoi
tried it ; and had found it amply eutficient for the
vindication of the law. But he supposed that the
was ice of the remedial measures which the government lad
promised. (Hear, hear.) It was a contradiction of all the
former seta and professions of the noble lord at the head of
the government. Instead of proposing new laws for sedition,
the government should attend to the claims imd &offerings,'
the people. It was Junius who had said that agitation
the hue and cry which foretold the change that was coming'
If this bill passed, open agitatiun would be transformed into
secret conspiracy, and matters would be in a worst poti
than ever. As to invasion from a foreign country, he al.',
no fear of that; and if it did come, he should be one 01
the first to oppose it; but he believed it to be a mere cri:
got up to support coercive laws. He asked e
beret members who had been sent to that house by mg
people whether they would support one of the
tyrannical laws that had ever di:graced the .ata!
book ? The principle upon which the government t_
log was, in fact, one of coercion both for England and IT;
land ; and he trusted that the Irish members, at least,vet
not content themselves with giving a silent vote in opposil."a
to it. Let the Irish people have equal laws, and then they
would not fear a few uncomfortable men, who were
tan
fortable from negligence, from idleness, and from !ant. 7
industry. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord might ho?
strong government if he rested on the people, Matted:.
raking up old and obsolete statutes for their coercion: pi
had told the people often that they had
if properly exercised, than any people in Europe; b
pnvileges were freedom of the press and of speech.,
and
these were taken away the privileges
runeswould if.;
at once. (Hear, hear.) At a time when
075.,
tottering, and sceptres crashing around us, it was ra netrr:
• series decent.
to hear the British government proposing • lag
is
laws. Great stress had been laid on articles appear one
certain newspipers, but had bon. memhers looked over
hies of the Morning Chronicle during the aeitaswn _see
greater pnot _
ReMrm Bill ? They might there see how Col. Materone,
instructions in sliest firing, and the best modes of

soldiers in cities. T
the nob:e lord and h
wonderful resemble
present moment. I
courtesy, first rea
the present occasion
to the government I
Nit. R. M• FOX
restore the PrnePeri
for that purpose.
join with him •n a
treason or sedition
shell and Meagher
the landlords of I
harangues entirely
in one month be
would come forwa
their distress, and
must also extend tt
tires. It they won
house the much in.
tranquillity would
Mr. GRATTAN
loyalty of the Irish
that loyalty, but ft
vernment, and the
been established in
had been misled
made in filling e
troops. Ile shoe
for alarm, except I
he nut seen an
pike-maker to the
similar in Lime
hind the chair
for pikes, turne,
it was reviving
tem. (Hear, Ilea
bills had (Ailed. at
jug Ireland. Tilt
attuy, a system w
could not maintai
which should gen,
who bad said that
became the prey
the case in fret*
the frieze-coated
ing, but th y had
only republican
north, while t
directly opposit
were neither rep
remember the tr,
Preach revolutic
mending amelim
dies fee the prey
Lord D. STU I
for the batter psi
he thought the
vernraent would
people. (Hear,
the observatim
land, and Je...1
one of dame
changes, but h
not long be con
nor would they
seated by the si
and important
see such bolot
wanted was a I
they believed i
lion. In lrele
a right to dem
that some urea+
necessary, fur i
abroad througl
to suppress It
measures of co
company them
the people, an
he had expres,
he had voted
would lose no
sures. That
been misplace
ception of a I
complicated tl
snake it work,
lathe oth r lin
ward. That It
dress, could n
representatim
and many otl
redressing wl
lance and sea
their loyalty
depended on
Montrose in
should oppos
with freedom
one of the an
and it could
could assure
would regari
picion. In s
that the ma
be should ret
second readii
Mr. THEY
its nature sh
the governor
fail, and the
measure tha
The object
for offences
sow:dent.
atitutional c
the Attorne
of transpor
in the mom
he might TV
against hit
say Ireland
—(a Liu&
governmen
lie might
comraissior
make piki
the Freon
depended
ixformatio
passed in c
which ha
cares, he 11
the case r
believe wt
tioned his
moment •
1,000,000
necewaric
from the
made for
when sufl
in Engla
doubted
aides. If
Roman c

power of
m that
man aCa of
tion. Le
which Ir
most thre
lotion of
land. 1
jibing ;

to a nam
had the
Me woul
the right
were the
ing tram
be tried
would I
goner co
the man
former
(Hear, I
it affect
now we
would a
He hop
determi
of mild
tribune
followe,
who we
this me
terrupt
ple wa,
and wli
flghtio
he bell,
would
of the
more h
and it
them
speech
Mr.
this hi
in con
haying
u rare r m
that ol
that tl
might
which
punish
land,

2 TTIE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 8, 1848
------------------atedthatthehon.gentkman must **artiste would not be prevented, and it was taking them by Lord J. RUSSELL would abstain from all allusion
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENI. confaniEseAtEtoapuintting the question. surprise to prevent them now at the eleventh hour. It w►+ hon. membehr for N•ot.tioeughumeon'sfinsopewechh.thane
hdisroosto
Mr. DRUMMOND wished to know in what way the not their intention to come to the door of the Bowie of Com- out of that owe, and. fa
• HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY, APPAL 7. hon. gentleman meant top ring the different subjecta con- mo_ , but to pass over Westminster Bridge. All the those observations which the honourable member h
- his oast at 6 o'clock. %tined in the petition before the house.
plicoeriolhemonlyh4eclarto influence that he could exert would be employed to tared in his plane there. lie now informed the how
la. rr (ult./NOR said he had given hiweeonk trict7or:e
flat
te ndooetnitheofinthtenetihonolf th..eßortoetheaseiongotorcomtvnia
el
dd t 7, to the
ir"thee•
_,.. enovro•aed they would not house would find, on referring to the printed ec I
an intention was therein announced, ai

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