The Express.
London, England, 1851-03-15 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 15 1851.

, soothe the excitement which the recent attempt at the , !tension. (Hear) Now, the questions submitted to Mr. i
hierarchy in England Bothell, of the Vice-Chancery bar, . r. Bramwell, and Mr. 1
f, might he sdthe ge'
"h.tl.4"aaut uuunalurtheallyikmerertede,4"timeiet thee prepared Surrid were these--" First question. Whether, in ease
second clause be omitted, a deed executed by any per
calmly to deal with any evil which un appily oxi tcd, ain.h
to direct their attention, as it was their duty to do, to o son in or under any name, style, or title which such person!
consequences which might ensue if the evil were not cur- is by this, or the recited act, prohibited from using, would
tailed. (Hew, beer.) Thu noble lord at the head of the nevertheless be void ? Answer. We are of opinion that any
taking a step back- such deed or writing would be void in law. Second ques-
goavredr,ailinds"det nb.ringbrienatitaunteceterentws,"tahndhadbeen told that tion. Whether, in case the third clause were omitted, '
he had rendered himself unworthy of the great liberal an endowment by will or gift of any Roman ca- -
party over which, with so much ability, he had tholic archbishop or bishop-in manner in to •
hitherto presided. But, with the opinion which be prohibited by same-would nevertheless be void..
be had before formed of t'w noble lord's character, By first section, any gifts or endowments for the benefit
be aepreheneled that. in the imperative discharge of his of support of the office of any ltainan catholic bishop, by
duty towards his country, the noble lord would not be de. or under the nnme or style 01 his office, would become void,
terred from the free exertise of his judgment, even by the ; because they become Rats to an office abolished in law,
consideration of his politieal antecedents or by the risk of , being forbidden to be assumed, and all
incapable of being ]
(Cheers.) To his mind, it Appeared the noble lord best exercised, for the grantee or donee has no longer any re-
eonsulted, not only the intereets of the party which it was • nernised legal character or existence. The first section, in
alleged he was deserting, but, what was of greater impor- . feet, involves the second and third, which are declarations 1
Lance, those of the country at large, by acting as he had . only of legal consequences resulting from the first ; and it
dune. (Cheer..) Although he regretted that parliamentary ' seems to us a mistake to suppose that by omitting the
difficultiel had induced the noble lord to modify second and third sections the acts thereby proposed
the provision which he first propowd, believing that to he prohibited will remain good and legal. He should
such enactments would in nowise interfere with the legiti- be happy to show them to any hon. gentleman who
mate exereiw and enjoyment of religious liberty, but wished for further information on the subject. Thew rea-
merely tend to control ebuset,he should, in the absence of lOUs went to show that although nominally the second and
more stringent proposition., give the noble lord his bumble thinl clause were proposed to be left out, this house was
but most cordial support. (Cheers.) Ile might perhaps dealing with a question of lim:llan catholic endowments,
be permitted to add, that it was not without • deep feeling and taking into consideration • bill which still virtually
of menet that he had found himself unable, after much contained the two clauses in question. Under such or-
cen.ideration, to aeries at conclusions in unison with !cum-dances he trusted the bill would continue to be looked
those which hail been recently expressed by one toward, I upon by the people of Ireland with feelings of aversion. l
whom, as that housewhom, would readily understand, he bore He trusted that, whatever the consequences,
. the people of 1
considerable political attachment-(cheers)-and to whom Ireland would never accept of a compromise so long as,
he booked to occupy a place unhappily vacant in connexion whether the present bill or an abridged bill were persevered
with measures act public int rest. (Hear, hear.) By the in, the evil principle which is embodied rem:Lintel to insult
model of hie political principle's he would readily fashion and to injure. (Cheers.) lie trusted, in conclusion, that,
his own views, and happy war he to think that on most whatever its shape or Lorna the representative, of Ireland
subjects he was not, as an that instance, compelled to differ would know their duty, and, regardless of all the taunts
from him. (Cheers.) It was, huwever, precisely because directed at them, continue to offer to the measure the most
he was an ailvorate of civil and religious liberty, which he unceasing and strenuous opposition. (Cheers.)
held to be so ime-paraley united that von could not deface Mr. )100RE moved the adjournment of the debate.
the one without disfiguring the other, that he gave his Loud cries were raised, however, to " go on," and hispanic
adhesion to legislation upun this so-called papal aggression. being repeatedly called,
Divesting the act of the Politicalifilluenee which it involved, Mr. P. W 001) rose and slid: He believed that his
and considering it apart from the spiritual jurisdiction hon. and learned friend the member for Plymouth (Mr.
assumed by Rome, there seemed to be no carious cause for Roundel] Palmer) had in the course of his speech that
alarm. Here wey the simple abstract evidence of the vanity evening fallen into many fallacies ; but throughout all
• of an individual priest,who had had the merknees to promote there was one fundamental fallacy, on which the whole of
his own elevation by assurances that the political cense- the argument had been built, and which once being set
queue., resulting thcrefroni would be of :1 superficial and a aside ins olved the nun of the rest. The honour-
merely transitory . nature-Gaughter)i-the simple cireum- able and learned gentleman began by laying down
seiner that Dr. Wiseman had been transmuted as if by the his notion of civil and religious liberty ; and he
stroke of ilarlequici• wiandouidliad*lnifEedoff the sestmcnts said it behoved the house to consider well how far we had
of a bishop Sopa:Mew, to assume the gaudy trappings of • proceeded in that direction, and what were the principles
spiritual prince, and the title of an imagin.ary see. After now governing this country with reference to those most
all, the cardinal's hat and hose had nut been reserved fur important points. He (Mr. Wood) was sure that there
him thus to deal with ; the Medici wore cardinal's hats were few members on his side of the house, certain he was
and petticoats. Did not history point the finger of scorn that he was not one of them, who would not be prepared to
at Julius 111., who gave the cardinal's hut, which he maintain the principles of civil and religious liberty to the
vacated on being appointed pontiff, to the keeper of • me- very utmost extent consistent with the safety of the state.
nagerie of monkeys? (Laughter.) Pio Nono appeared to (Cheer.) But he did believe in his conscience that if they
aspire to the character of Gregory VII., as represented in an remainel neutral in this question by permitting the lope
old painting which he remembered to have seen at Naples, to take to himself this prtvilegemot permitting any of her
with • tweeter in unu baud and a whip in the other, tram- Majesty's subjects to refer to the Pope as the source of
pling snider foot the crowas of sovereigns, and haying jurisdiction, for these were his words-(hear, hear)-of
fishermen's net. by his side. This representation of the permitting one of her Majesty's subjects to refer to the
fiery monk of Cluny Weirded no incorrect portraiture of Pope as the source of jurisdiction, ander and by virtue
the character which l'ie Nono, with all his virtues and of that jurisdiction to govern while counties-they
weaknemes, desired to enact. lle regretted that the noble would be doing that which would take them back
lewd should, in attempting to legislate fur England, have to • period of darkness and intolerance when such a thing
proposed to extend the bill to Irelenel, the eceleemstical as civil and religious liberty was unh:arel of. (Cheers.)
condition of which was so different from that of England. And he must further most conscientioiely say that the
(Hear, hear.) They could not conceal from themselves the speech of a noble lord had in another elace-who, though
fact that the bill, although shorn of its fair pro- he uttered few words on this topic, vas one all of whose
portions, would produce, if indeed it had not words tell with weight-and the speech delivered on a
already excited, very serious hostility iu that part former occasion by the right eons baronet the
of her Majesty's dominions. Experience had taught them member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) in that
how tenacious the human catholic, of (related were of their heuse had dune inure to throw back tin cause of civil and
religion; experieuee had also taught them how futile were religious liberty in England-(cheers)-than any event
all attempts to interfere with what was considered the free which had taken place within the lase 3110 years. (Loud
esereise of that religion which united the great majority of cheers.) It could not but occur to then that the people of
the people in one C 0,11131011 band of sympathy and faith. Let Sardine would read with great pain qpinions comitig from
them cease to apply their efforts in that direction; or, so distinguished a quarter, and eau:mattes front leaden in a
if they must legislate, let them not do that which, country which hail been supposed to ...eve:lope in all its in-
however applicable to England, would be altogether idle tegrity the liberty of the laity as agsenst the usurpation of
and unprofitable as regarded Ireland. The neent display the-clergy. (Cheers.) That nation, Sardinia, was nowengeged
of protestant fueling in this country certainly afforded in a desperate struggle, such as we had accomplished,
something like a guarantee against further aggrewion. No against a power which we had long delivered ourselves
individual cautions were required to induce the people of from. That country, iu the course:of this struggle, now
this country to impress their unanimous disapprobation of Muted itself in this position, that oue of its political minis
the step which haul been taken. In an address recently eters was allowed to expire without tie consolations of the
presented, and signed by 400,000 Roman catholic', the pars church, solely on the grounds that he had been instru-
ties stated that they had been taught by their religion to minted in defending the laity against he clergy. (Cries of
give to ('iesar the thing, which belonged to Omar, as they "tilt, oh.") Newby wiehedcarefullytoguard himself against
gave to God the things which belonged to God. That wounding the feelings of any hon. munber with whew re
declaration appeared to hint far from satisfactory, inasmuch 'igloos opinions he dilfered-(hear, ivar`-he desired to
as the words mbnitted of a jeauiticel interpretation. (Ineer, argue this question entirely as a question of civil liberty
hear.) Whether these. Boman catholies had in view the in- and civil jurisdiction-(hear, heur)--ind he had to repeat
teational concealment of their opinions by the hypocritical that in Sardinia they had but very recently seen the me-
use of that expression, he knew not, but this lie knew, that lamina). spettecle of one of its politica. chiefs being left on
the expression haul hjen used by jesuits in a Tolle like the hie death-bed without the conielations of his re-
protect. From his own experieuce when engaged in di- 'igloo - a deprivation which all Sardinians felt
plonatic relations with foreign powers, the critical ens deeply, simply because ho had divised these three
counters he had witnessed arcing out of papal interference Merle laws-that all civil causes 'nosh' be tried by
with the affair* of other countrie*, lie was much strength- 1 the civil tribunalw-that was the first-that all ecclesiastics
rued in that opinion. The struggles he had witnessed in a accuned of crimes should he tried by the civil tribunal.-
land of liberty against a threatened eciii,i.uktical oppression that was the second that the right of asylum, that right
had so acted upon his feelings as to reader übe• which had been so desperately abused in every country in
thence to the instruetione of the noble lord opposite which it had existed should he abolisheel-titiswae the third.
to preserve a strict ueutrality-(cheer.)-a matter of nu 't hese three were the Siecardi laws ; and whilst the Sardinians
easy accompliehment. (Hear hear.) Ile hail Seen in were thus endeavouring to Mlle the tint Step/ in the pro-
a country of little over two millions of inhabitants an army gems toward., the liberation of the laity (rum the usurped
raised of 90,000 men, and that, nut to resist as of old the power of the ecclesiastical courts, they found that an
foreign invader-not to fight another battle of Muntgarten attempt was being made to paralyse and to defy their
-not to crush the power Ur Austria, or to sweep away the efforts by the clergy iu notoriously releasing the last tuinistra-
chivalry of Burgundy-but to control a domestic excite- lion of the church to the minister who had been most pros
mint, stirred up by the artitice-o of the Jesuit., nail to wage minent in the. exertion. (Hear, hear.) Ile did, therefore,
a war of brother ageinst brother. (('beers.) And this bad Bey that et hen continental liberals, such as the Mor-
tara place amongst on.- of the mint gallant races the (bruin, perreived that men in high station, in cha-
world had eier sen, ene on a soil which, like an noes in ratter, and in influence in this country, were di.pufeed
the desert, was the asylum and refuge, of all who fled frum to think these thing. trifles, and to deal indifferently
the despotism and tyranny of continental Ennipe. (Bear, with the neeemption of the Pope to reintroduce here the
bear.) Ile repeated that he had seen ouch things se ren• ecelesiaetieal privileges happily so long abolished among us,
dered it hardly possible for hint to maintain that and which it woe the object of the siceardi laws to aholisle
attitudF of calm and impartial observation which the in 8•0100 a, they could not but feel diebeartened and
noble lord opposite had enjoinol on 'sins. Rome was an doubtful of the success of their TAWS, (Hear, hear.) But
enemy whom it would require all our zeal and attentiuti to let the lame give alittle attention to the fallacies of the hon.
counteract, and he beliceid front his heart that the r. sent and learned member for Plymouth. The hon. and learned
aggression, Although comparatively insignificent, w.“ the first member NW, .. LW& Well to the definitions in these came."
etep in it premeditated attack on our liberties--(cheers)-an Now, the definition of religious liberty was this-the right
organised system of enensiehment, adopted with • view of wheelie-very man has of woNhipping his Creator in the mode
insulting our ("muleteers, shackling our liberties, and ikek- he deems lest, of selecting for his religious and familiar in-
ing OUT alle•j•glee. 0,041 Cheer./ Ile would entreat the structors those whom he is willing to select, and in every
noble lord (J. Itteesell) then. se he respected that religious way exercising in the freest manner his religious oh-,
liberty of which he had so lung been the distinguished ad- ...ream-es, :assays with this safeguard which applied to all.
vocals., to keep an active and vigilant eye over the sacred civil as Well W. to all political temente-thane-Me iiii No ut
interests entrusted to his keeping; and he would entreat 011C1111Ill ne brdas. And that was the whole point in the
that house, by timely legislation, to prevent the intnidue- whole argument-(hear, hear)-and the definition of civil
Lion of abuses which might ultimately endanger the safety liberty iu connection with religious liberty was this-that nu
of the state. (Loud cheers.) can shall he deprived of any civil privilege whatever
Mr. hIPCULLAtiII, who was but indistinctly heard in is consequence of any religious opinions he may entertain
his opening obeervations, was undeniteel to say that he -a definition to which some hon. members would not give
could imagine the feelings with which Roman ra. • ready ur wide assent -the hon. member for Mayo (Mr.
Bettie member, of that house had listened to the Moore) in particular, whole three votes he (Mr. Wooed)
singular addrese wh;ch they had just heard. lle would well remembered against the aehniesion of llama Rothschild
as a protestant *Ay to them, let not the first steps in into parliament. (Cheers and laughter.) '('he hon. and
legislation of one like the hon. baronet be cunclueive in teemed member for Plymouth said; " Look to what
their judgment. Ile (Mr. .I•t•ullegh ) as a pro- you tire admitting in your own country-look
testent protested against this bill, belaU,e he was to the Free Kirk of Scotland, which has not
a sincere believer in the truthe of the prineiplis of protestant- only it, perfect spiritual but its complete ecclesiastical de-
ism, and because he believed that the principle of the refer velopment." The hon. and learned member pointed again
motion was this or nothing--the perfect and unabridged right to diltysnt churches. in England. Now it au. necessary
of private judgment. Fur these reasons he intended to that an accurate distinction should be drawn between eerie-
give the bill his hearty and stunner oppoeition. The siaistical and spiritual matter,. The hon. and learned gen-
right hon. the Secretary for the Home Department, in the tleman bad taken care to point out, 110:001 an advocate., for
sPeech he delivered on that night week, had told the house he spoke with real and evident eurnestneo, but having
that the alterations he proposed to make in the bill would taken a our-sided view, he pleiced it foremost, a great
obviate must of the objections that had been urged against difficulty, but he had kept back the genuine difficulty,
it. If those objections had been really obviated he enould that difficulty which, on this oceteiun, would affect his (Mr.'
rejoice, because he had no wish to see the excitement Wood's) vote. The him and learned member referring to
on this question continue, but he was prepared te, the difficulty raised as to Roman catholic ecclesiastic., that
contend. notwithstanding all that had been said, that they acknowledged a foreign superior, said that we should
the bill was still eeeentially the same in priu- have thought of this when we gave to Rumen catholic% the'
Iciplc, and that its effect* would be substantielly liberty they enjoy, when we gave to the priests the right to
s' persecuting as before the recent alteration,. The hill celebrate the service, and when we admitted the laity to
hail originally consisted of four clauses, and uow, a. they seats in this house. But he did not mention that other
were told, it containsiel only one; but in the preatuliie there difficulty. in connection with the Roman catholic religion
was a recital from the act of Pffig of thee sole remaining which was I.l' far more importance. lie forgot the extreme-
Letter of exelusien then preserved. The four decker had dietary peculierity of their term of eerie-justice, discipline
1 been cut down, but the tette-reel deg of exclusion still hung which made the Church of !fume, (though he (Mr. W owl)
1 from the mast. It seemed to have been taken for granted admitted the laity generally were indispmed to the assump-
that the Irish !Lenten catholic bishops wen., in as- ' g thins) • bushy of ecclesiastic, who ins arieble mixed up .
territorial titles, intenders against the old law, but he woe spiritual stud civil matters in such close conjures- ,
' prepared to show., from the records of all the court. of inn that it was hardly possible to separate them
Jain-Mune ia Ireland, what was really the state of and who, if permitted to introduce (es Cardinal
' the law with regard to these titles. He held in et i•CMJU expre*sly declared was his object), the cannon law
' his hand a document in which John M•liale. Roman into this country, would be in a position to exercise: the
I Catholic Archbishop nf Telma, asked for letters of most 4. xtensiva jurisdiction in purely temporal affairs.
adminissration in the Prerogative Court, which letters the Rome, it was boasted. never went back ; and it was true:
protestant archbishop of Armagh, primate of all Ireland, and the consequence of the introduction of the canon law ;
granted him, fully reeeenieine that title. So here thee would he, that it would Ix• put in force by synods, and that ;
; heel the highest prelate in the protestant church acknosi• mild not be done without according to the Pope'
Tait tem- '
' ledirine, in his judicial eapiwity, the title of the Roman pond influence in the affairs of Great Britain. (Ileer.) i
! catholic archbishop of Team. But be would state to : Now, this we. the distinction between the Roman catholic!
' the house sennething still mere extraordinary. Ile held system and the system of all other churches.. The free '
in his hand the particulars of • sharply contested i kirk of seotland pretended to no control over temporalities. '
suit between the old corporation of the town of Droancela ' As to the chureh of Entrlend, if it retained any control over
and their sueeis..r*, the new or reform • urporation.. temporalities, it was a Traol3olt of Rome. *(lcer, hear.)
It appeared that the old corporation managed certain ; Certainly we had still crele•iestiral courts exercising power
tomes in a peculiar manner, and that the new corporation • as regarded the probates of wills-and the Council of Treat 1
• wanted to have them mizaged by a body compesed of half • deelared that it was necessary for the church to have such I
' protestants and half Romeo catholic, When the cow was control-but thew were signs that this residuum of nn an-
seferred by the Lord Cheneellor in the year Deli to Master cleat system would also very soon be dispoeed of in England. Henn,
nn, with the view of directing how the trust should be : ((leer, But this was part and parcel of the cabling'
man aged in (snare without regard to sat, the very first ; ovstem of Rome. (Hear, hear.) They maid not pet rid of it.'
name the latter event:eel was .. The Most WT. Dr. Cnely, i (The hon. and learned gentlemen here went ost to refer to
Archbishop of Armagh. and l'riinete of all Ireland." e serious passages in the anddecri•talsiiiu
t t4h.euvarorimou;rbeujlltz;s
' (Wave hear.) New, the Chaneellor in that ease was 1 whenin the pre-eminence of the sp
neither a Item= catholic -which he could not leeally he-1 the temporal power, was elaborately enunciated.) Ilene, j nee a whip. Ile wee gir Edward Sugeleit and he (Mn, I then, were claims to spiritual jurisdiction•
al•Cullegh`, held in his hand Sir Edward's ecogni• '• • rYthing ; claims to the cornplete subin`an 'a
' Lien of the Mester's report. (Hear, bear.; Last : 'all Roman catholic,. of any nation, to thetb'i
P p," 1
yeAr the late Itimen e ittiolit primate died, and doeThe natural development, the hon. and learned stentlemen---°- '.
that occasion the sante limiter sod-" I hereby !contended. was excomniunieotion, as part of the canon 1
11. atioate the tent leev. Paul Cullen, Arieabishop of Ar- : law. which it was desired to introluee, and it. was the 1
meek, and Primate of all Iretuul, in Dr. Croll)'. room ;" ; natural development to submit to the Poet: according as to 1
and yet he (Mr. M'Cullaghl was to be told, in the teeth , his command, end to what the canon law is sit,i,rit :-7.
of all these facts, that the Homan catholie hiererchy were l say. When his hon. and learned friend
(Hear,! all that, asset that insoluble connection between spiritual I
a novel of usurpers, pretenders, and offeeleee.
hew.) He believed tee right honourable baronet the' and tensoorel thing. in the etrwle.,-.:
lit:m:4l7,
~..1
.1.
Stn i
apt e r
f the ,
... Procne Secretary (Sir 0. Grey) would agree with hint Ihe contend that there was se ""differenceam'heiere,°„%id
in ovine that it was unseemly that millions of her ' those two things-spiritual and
Majesty's subjects elsould be set in • net upon a bill of, tepee? He (Mr. l'age Wood)
) He would say
this description, as . that, in the n une of common d weary, ' development in this stage." (Cheers
helmet, and truth, it was above all things n..cessarc tb it • ' Hest it w is most consistent with the pcae• es and happiness of
measure of thi* kind atould he. plain aol easy of .conspre- this country; for depend upon it if tie Pope were allowed