The Express.
London, England, 1853-03-01 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, TUESDAY MINING, MARCH 1, 1853.

. . .
i UM ref* clothing perquisites, colonels should have an 1850 the number was only 9—(hear, hear)—the ge
mutant ivanee of 1,0001. a year, bubthat In conskima- strength being about 11,000; in 1851 it was 9, the strength
dote( di distisomithed services of the Dark* of Welling- being more than 11,000; and in 1852 the number was 5,
los,
_the umelememle a his regiment, the Grenadier Guards, the average strength
rova 12,000 men. (Cheers.) There
be he saissiiet daring his lifetime. The change was car- was one point in to the education of the rutti-
est elelliMemyother regiment, but the committee conelder-• levy upon widish, probe ly, the house might consider there
ing that there might be meritorious officers entitled to Mrs was some reason to complain—that was the absence of a
G
reward*, left two regiments, the Grenadier and Ist Cold- sufficient practice ground. It was true there were practice
Mimi uards,_ at allowances of 3,0001. and 2,0001. a year grounds, but they were so limited that there was great diffi-
usperitinly. It was expressly intended that these regi- nifty in giving the men that practice which was necessary
mints should be reserved se rewards for distinguished milli- for their perfect efficiency. In the commissariat and bar-
' Wry services, and on that understanding be (Mr. Hume) rack supplies there was an increase of 71,6281. over
had soneentoi to vote for them. He was sorry to find how- the vote of last year, wkieh was occasioned by the
ever that these regiments had been given to Prince Albert forage of one thousand extra horses, the increased
and the Dyke of Cambridge, neither of whom had any price of rations, two months' forage for Ireland, which
claim to distinction in the military service of the country. last year was provided for by the commissariat department,
He thought he had • strong right to complain of the sea- the clothing for the militia, and an additional charge fur
duct of that government which had thus defeated the inten- great coats to make up the stock, which at the commence-
dons of the committee. He admitted the merits of Prince meat of the year was lower than necessary. In the next
Albert, and the efficiency and ability with which he ful- vete fur salaries and contingencies of the ordnance office
filled the duties of his exalted station, but still he thought there was a decrease of 1,6111., but it was occasioned chiefly
that these appointments, which the committee had re- by the transference of certain parts of that establishment to
Mimed for military services, should not have been so die- the Tower. In the 4th vote, establishments at home and
pond of. (lieu, hear.) He did not know whether any mem- in the colonies, salaries, allowances, and contingencies,
ber of that esmunittee was present—a committee which there was an excess over the amount granted last year of
Miluded Lori Hardinge, and the most distinguished mill- 3,3441., a portion of which was occasioned by the transfer
try MB SSA shillalas of the day—but if any member were of certain charges from other departments. For the este-
pmemst be NOM bear him (Mr. Hume) out in his assertion blishments at home 4,6441. more was required than in the
that them were expressly reserved as rewards for last year, but 1,3001. less would suffice for the establishments
distinguish military services. (Hear, hear.) The next nbroad—the increase at home being made up by the charge
point to which he wished to call attention was the mode of of the establishment of the Tower. There was an extra
carrying on the civil administration of the army. In 1835- charge for storekeepers consequent upon the establishment
36, when military reform was under discussion, the septum- of a convict establishment at Perth, in Western Australia,
Lion of the ordnance from the rest of the military depart which had rendered a military establishment there necessary,
runts was universally condemned, and it was recommended but there was a reduction in the charge for barrack masters
that the Secretary at War should be a member of the in Canada, Jamaica, Halifax, and Hobart Town. The next
Cabinet, end have control over the entire military force. vote was for wages, and the amount was 141,4371., while
•eseemidon was appointed in 1837, including Lord J. Ras- that of last year was but 124,3461., the excess being 17,0911.,
MI, LeedPabserston, and Lord Howick, and they confirmed which arose principally from additional works at the va-
this resenunendation. He thought the present a most rious manufactories at Woolwich, the charge fur which
fitting time for bringing these matters before the house, was over 19,0001. That amount, however, was reduced by
which might see whether the useless establishment in Pall- about 2,0001. in the colonial charge arising principally from
mall might set be abolished, and whether the consolidation the decision to which the government had come, and to
ressmmomidol by the committee, many of whom were now which his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Entre-
neemlim of the government, might not be effected. For quer, had alluded, vie., to at once terminate the expendi-
time 10111111111/ he wished to ask the Secretary at War, first, Lure, as far as this country was concerned, on account of
for information respecting the disposal of the two regi- the Rideau Canal. (Hear.) The next vote was for stores ;
ments to which he had alluded ; and secondly, whether but before proceeding to that, he would shortly refer to the
there was any intention of abolishing the ordnance as a coarse now pursued by the Ordnance department in regu-
separate department ? lating the stores at the various depute. It would be recol-
Mr. S. HERBERT said that, although the commission lected that great dissatisfaction was expressed by the coin-
alluded to had recommended the abolition of the ordnance mittee of 1849 at the accumulation of obsolete and unur-
'Unable stores, and the attention of the principal store-
department, and although several members of that COralnit-
keeper was directed to the subject with a view to the re-
, sion had since occupied positions in the government, none
10f them had endeavoured to enforce the views of the Wm- moval of the anomalies that then existed. The
mission. He believed that official experience had come. house might not perhaps be aware that half-
derably modified their views as to the expediency of carry- yearly returns ware now required from all the establishments
ing Cut that recommendation. As to the cue of the Sure- at home and in the colonies of the quantity and description
Lary at War, to whom it was proposed to delegate the fune. of stores in stock, showing what were serviceable and what
lions of the Secretary for the Colonies
were not. But in addition to these, triennial returns were
have the disposal of our forces at 110411111 supposing him to
and abroad, required more elaborate and searching, to test the manner
he must consult the Home and Colonial Secretaries before in which the half-yearly returns were made out. The qua-
doing so, so that the same results would be attained by lion, however, was, whether the system which had been
means of more cumbrous machinery. Seeing the number established had succeeded or not ? lie believed it bad, and
of practical difficulties there were In the way, the govern- he would state why. Ho had called for returns of unser-
ment could not give any pledge that they intended any al- vicoable and obsolete stores at Quebec, Gibraltar, and Dub.
tendon. (Hear, hear.) lin, and in each of these stations there were hardly any of
that description. The unserviceable stores had either been
Mr. ELLICE confirmed the statement of the hon. mem-
ber for Montrose as to the intention of the committee with *old on the spot, sr, if worth the expense, sent home. for the
purpose. He believed in the other colonies and stations the
respect to the two regiments of guards. He wished not t o
same remarks applied, and that no stores were now in stack
be understood as pushing his own views to the full extent
which were not serviceable, and a Treasury committee ap-
wasof the report of the committee, but, unless some approach
pointed last year had reported that the system was now so
made to a system of responsible government and control
complete that they did not think any improvement in the
over the military expenditure of this errantry, it was in
mode of keeping down surplus stores could be effected. One
vain for them to hope for that economy and efficiency which great item in the excess of this vote was the
the constituencies demanded. (Cheers.) charge for arms consequent on the introduction
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to of a more efficient description of small arms
say a few words to prevent a misunderstanding which might in the service. There was also an additional sum
else arias as to the statement of his right hon. friend (Mr. for guns, gurn-carriages, and for 200 new shot furnaces. In
S. Herbert). His right hen. friend the Secretary-at-War the vote for works, buildings, and repairs, there was an
had not, he thought, been rightly apprehended by his right excess of 246,6271. over the vote of last year. This excess
hon. friend behind him (Mr. Ellice). It was not his right was chargeable chiefly for fortifications—one of the prim-
hon. friend's intention to say that nothing could be done on pal items in it being the fortification of our naval arsenals,
the great question of consolidating our military establish- necessary to place them in a state of perfect defence against
hostile attack. Since 1815 the average amount expended in
meats but to maintain a prudent reserve as to any planthat
might! be under consideration on this subject. (Hear, providing new defences of this nature was only 13,0001. a
hear.) His right hon. friend (Mr. Enna) had, however, year ; and ever since the attention of parliament and the
travelled into a larger subject, one Of great importance government had been more directly called to the subject—
undoubtedly. But in his belief the mem and principal that was since 1846—only about 32,0001. a year had been
ground that the house would be justified in indulging • expended for that purpose. He believed there was no other
hope as to the reduction of this class of expenditure depended country which had not expended much larger sums on
upon measures to be taken in our colonial system—(hear, single fortifications than we had on the whole of ours.
hear)—and he should be sorry if government had, as his Under these circumstances, it could be hardly wondered at
right hon. friend supposed, in any way indicated, the first ilia large sum should be demanded when now, for the first
moment after their accession to office, any indifference on time, the attention of the country was really aroused to the
that subject. He would venture to assure him that that was necessity of provi ling for its defence. The total amount
not the ease. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend would which would be required far fortifications was 8.3,9041., and
agree with him that it was impossible fee the ministers who for fortifying the arsenals, 57,4721. There was also 60,0001.
assumed official responsibility only in January last, to adapt required for improvements in the fortifications of the Chan-
the ordnance estimates of this year to the views they wished net Islands, and for barracks connected with those fortifica-
to carry out. It was impossible for them to make the dons, 33,4001., amounting together to 236,8001. There was
requisite communications with the colonies to obtain the also an item of 7,1001. for the re-purchase of a
necessary information to enable them to act, but this he workhouse in Cork, which was originally erected as
would say, that in the principle his right hon. friend had a barna., but had been taken, in 1840, by the Poor-
laid down they heartily and cordially coneurred—(loud law Commissioners, for the purposes of the Poor-law.
cheen)—end none more so than thou who were charged There was 3,5511. for the purchase of the renteharge of
with the management of oar colonial empire. (Hear-) Richmond Barracks, and 5,0001. for completing the works.
It was however impossible for them to go far in carrying There was a sum of 10,0001. for the purchase of ground for
that priselpls into effect in the estimates now laid on the the increase of the Wellington Barracks, which had been
table. The Secretary for the Colonies could not take rendered necessary by the lease of the Portman barracks be-
measures to deal with the military posts in Canada until he log about to expire. There was also a sum of 3,0501. for re-
bad communicated with the Governor-General, and obtained pairs of the r ance-o ea, and another of 7,8681. for con-
the oin ffi
information necessary to place him in a position to In the vacated part of the Ordnance-office at the
examine into &question so important in time for him to Towle into a storehouse. It would be remembered that
have embodied the result in the present estimates. the storehouses were burnt down in 1841, and since then,
(Hoar, hear.) But there was one small charge, in consequence of the accumulation of stores, many of
not a very important one, with regard to Canada, which were kept in tents, and some quits ex-
which he would venture to refer to, sad which his hon. pitied, it was essential that these works should be
friend (Mr. Morrell) would in the Ordnance estimates, proceeded with without delay. With regard to the buildings
which he was about to move, have referred to in due time— abroad, the excess was mainly to be accounted for by the
that was the drugs for the maintenanes of the Rideau necessity of rebuilding barracks which had been destroyed
Canal. The hense would be aware that British money to by a disastrous fire in Quebec, and for which 3,2061. would
an enormous extent had been spent in the construction of be required. The house was well aware of the fatal fever
that canal, and it was pnerslly supposed that a certain which had occurred at Barbadoes, and it was considered
amount of revenue war derived from it ; but perhaps they advisable to endeavour to improve the sanitary condition of
were not aware that up to the present time there had been the garrison by the building of a main-drain at an outlay of
an annual charge incurred beyond the revenue obtained 1,8931. There were also sums of 1,4851. for works in
from it for keeping up that communication, and that since Jamaica' and of 12,9811. for continuing the building of new
its construction it had swallowed up more thousands of Bri- berracksat Halifax,which were progressing vapidly. These
Her were the principal items of exoesa which had been rendered fish money than he liked to name. (Hear, hear.)
Majesty's government thought the time had come when indispensable, and arising out of the necessity which existed
that canal should no longer be a charge is the mother
ems . (Cheers.) A soneepoadence hod taken place on for placing the defences of the country in a respectable
state. The fortifications had been ordered to fall into de-
the std the "mid nadmrldsn Pleiwiwl.„ poverty ay, and if that had not been permitted, the amounts re-
clean%
lee swede all Ownsingf_en 1116.___11_61alatri to repair quired now would not have been or large. fhe next vote
Nelda eine canal led" Goa it •°° wen Trelemed to Film war for the scientific branch, on which there was an excess
of 19,3061. Part of that emu would be found to be for '
• charge in the memat estimates forint purpose. But**
government thought it would have • maul effect in bring- the Ordnance survey, which the government had thought
leg the 41010863° to hose as to the lia'alty of the colony to it best and most economical to have it provided with,
energetically and rapidly, and 10,0001. had been devoted
manilas the mad themelves if they declined to accede to..
that Prellneal, and accordingly the charge hall been strut' towards expediting the completion of the maps, and
out of the estimates. The amount, it was true, was not • other things necessary for that object. There was an
Moreau of 3111. at Chatham for the expense of giving very large one, oily a few thousand pounds ; but the
in-
course the government bad taken tin the matter would, unction to the soldiers of the line in field works. There
he hoped, be received as some indication of their future in- was also an increase for the Royal Military Academy of
tendons. (Haar.) There we. another point with regard to 5731. In the next vote, that for the non-effective depart-
the Ordnance establishments in the smaller West India runt, there was &decrease on the last years' estimates of
islands. It appeared to the government that nothing was 1,1411. He had thus endeavoured to „platn the moo.
more unnecessary in • military, and certainly In • social tint item of diminution and excess in the years' estimates;
point of view, than that these little establishments should and he would only aid that he should be happy to answer
be maintained—(hear)—and accordingly his noble friend an questions which might be put to him by hen. members.
had consented to do away with them, and to concentrate L. the first vote of 17,698 officers, non-commissioned
the Ordnance establishments altogether in the larger ado- officers, and men for the Ordnance core,
nice. (Hear.) He hoped the explanation he had given Mr. MUME (who spoke in a very low tone) was under-
would be received as an indication of the intention to re. stood to say, that having already made some observations on
duce these charges as much as possible. (Hear.) the subject of the Ordnance on the motion for going into
Mr. E. ELLICE wished merely to say that kis observe- Supply, and believing that there was no chance of doing
lions had arisen from the disappointment he felt at the anything to decrease these estimates, he thought the best
terms in which his right hon. friend the Secretary-at-War way would be to let them go on. lie would only say, that
alluded to the subject. Had that right hon. gentleman said if the went on spending money in this way, there could
as much u the Chancellor of the Exchequer he (Mr. Ellice) be no hops of any reduction of taxation. The hon. gentle-
should not have made a remark. man then proceeded to compare the amount of the present
The motion was then agreed to, and the house went into estimates for the Ordnance, amounting t 0.3,053,5671., with
Committee of those in 1834, when they were 1,700,0001. Since that time
SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. they had risen every year until last year, when they
Mr. MONSELL trusted he should be able to satiety the reached 2,529,8211.; and in this year they had again in-
committee that the equation to be provided for in the creased to their present amount. He also compared the
present estimates, though in MUM of the previous year, number of men voted in the present year with that in
could not, under all the cireramitemme, be ram& He 1834 and the subsequent years, and which showed a great
might observe, that almost every renenteasmdmdis mode by increase. After some observations on the non-effective do-
the cohmittee of 1849 had been cessfed out in milmenee to panne/nit, the hon. gentleman protested against the tepee-
this deportment. The duties of sad barrack- dittos en barracks. It seemed, however, that people were
master bad been combined in several adoitkgal instances, quite mad on the subject of defence, and so alarmed that
especially in the West India and other colonise; and, as the no cm in that house could attempt with success to curb
Chancellor of the Exchequer bad cxgS.laede the Wm- this expenditure. The best course would be to put all the
lion of the government in the future ethos@ doC Moms into one vete, and not enter into any particulars.
multi was entirely in accordance with that Semething had been said about the necessity of getting a
to stores, the committee's retrommessi=eind been quantity of great coats, and it was said that it would be
rstZdy followed, and with the most sadsfeatory results. In difficult to get contractors for them when they were wanted.
the item of pay and allowances there was a decrease of Did any_one ever hear of contractors being wanted ?
12,6421., occasioned by there being a leas amount required Mr. MONSELL was understood to explain that it was
for recruiting this year, as compared with the last, though not contractors that could be wanted, but that it would be
there was a larger amount of psi charged. The increase not easy to get the work completed on a sudden emergency,
in:the number of the artillery had been nude at the least and so the great roan were kept in store.
possible espies :no new commiesioned idiom had bean Mr. HUME said that this was the most objectionable
appointed; the additional straw* whisk baillmen given to part of the Ordnance. Why should there be three different
that arm of the service being imilsoll to men and non- contracts for the clothing o the army and the navy ? The
commissioned officers. With regard to the state of the Ordnance supplied great coats tothe army, the rest of their
artillery, it had never been mare ellbetin than at present ; clothing was supplied from another source, and the navy
and some of the eminent foreign came who MI visited was clothed by a third means of contract. The hon.
this country on the occasion of the Duke ilif Weilkiglon's gentleman then ridiculed the attempts of fortifying
funeral, had, dace their return home, expressed their the coast by mesas of Martello Towers, and referred
high opinion of the organisation of our artillery, and of its to the abaurd expenditure of 8,000,0001. during
merits as an effective force. He might add that those im- the last war in fortifying the heights of Dover,
provements to which his right hon. friend the Secretary at and referred to the hon. and gallant member for Brighton
War had alluded on Friday night as having been carried for a confirmation of the inefficiency of such means of de-
out in regard to the general army, had been adopted in the fence as were proposed for the coast of Sussex, and con-
artillery also. The schools, which bad been added to con- eluded by repeating his belief in the hopelessness of op-
siderably, were flourishing ; and besides the ordinary posing the estimates as proposed with any chance of sue-
schools there was one at Woolwich in which geometry, cm, arid therefore they had better be pared at once.
mensuration, the theoretical knowledge of fortifications, Sir G. PECHELL hoped the house would take the ad-
and other branches of instruction connected with the artil- vies of his hon. friend, for they appeared to have made up
lery service, were taught. There were 24 non-commis- their minds to increase the Ordnance expenditure without
sioned officers in regular attendance at that school. There discussion. With regard to the coast of Sussex, the fortifi-
were also similar schools established in the Colonial and cations there, and the great military canal, were entirely
other atatiops. There were libraries at many of those useless, and only used as places of resort for the coast
stations, and at Woolwich. In the Woolwich library for guard. If there was any increase in our defences, it ought
non-commissioned officers there were 3,999 volumes, and it to be in the navy, and not in bricks and mortar.
had 426 subscribers, the public contributing only 301. a The hon. and gallant gentleman then referred to
year towards it, the subscriptions paying the rest of the a proposal of the late government to increase
expense. In the gunners' library there were 4,000 volumes, the number of guns kept in store by the Ordnance when
the number of subscribers was 898, and the cost to the pub- there was already a very large number. He also alluded to
lie only 411. There had been a considerable improvement the great increase its the quantity of gunpowder in conse-
within the last few years is the health of this force. In queue of some thousands of pounds being wanted to fire
1849-60 the mortality was at the rate of 17* in the 1,000. over the dead militiamen. (hear, bear.) Then there
In 18.50.51 it was 161 in the 1,000, and in the last year it was 50,0001. fur clothing sod great coats, and 41,0001. for
had been 121 to the 1,000. With regard to punishment, colours and accoutrements for the militia, making some
there had been a considerable diminution, he was happy to 100,0001. additional to the sum which had been already
say, in the number of instances in which corporal punish- voted. As to fortifications, if there was any fear of Cher.
mcnt had been inflicted during the last two years. (Hear, bourg, there might be some use in fortifying Alderney, but
hear.) In 1819 the number of corporal punishments had he h_oped there would be no more such nonsense as build-
been 23, the average strength of the force being 10,000; in ing Martello towers beyond Rochester-bridge, as was done

_ _
in Mr. Pitt's time. He thought the best things to trust to
' were the wooden walls of this country.
Colonel NORTH said that the hon. and gallant member
the other night spoke as if he was glad that the quota of
Militia fur the county of Sussex had not been completed.
He wished to ask the hon. and gallant gentleman whether
every obstaee had not been placed in the way of the young
men's enlisting by the proprietors of that county, who
threatened never to employ any one who entered the
militia? Certainly those of them who were Deputy-Um.
tenants, and whose business it was to carry out the law
ought to have done their best for that object.
Sir G. PECUBLL said he could not account for wha
had been done by the landowners in a county which was
100 miles long and 40 wide. There were great landlords in
that county, and he had heard that there were 100,000 men
ready to march on Manchester or Birmingham. All be
could say was, that every one in the district in which
Ghe (Sir . Pechell) lived, was employed, sataitiitl, and cos.
tented ; and, no longer putting their trust is protectionist
landlords, depended on their own resources, and were
quite ready to meet any one who invaded their hearths and
homes. _

General ANSON, referring to the observation of Mr.
Hume as to passing the estimates its a mats, said
that unless gentlemen took the trouble to analyse them it
was not easy to fellow them, and the !separation of the civil
and military parts ought especially to be regarded.
The vote was agreed to.
The neat vote was 373,217/. for commissariat and barrack
supplies for her Majesty's land forces, great coats for the
army, and clothing for the militia, 1(..c.
Col. LINDSAY said the present system of lighting the
candles was to give out &certain number of candles, which
were utterly insufficient to give light. There was a couple
of candlesticks in the room, and the usual mode of getting
another candlestick was to use a ginger•beer bottle.
(Laughter.) In some instances the barracks were lighted
with gas. He asked if it were intended to carry out the
system of lighting with gas ? Ile would also observe, with
regard to canteens, that the present system of letting them
by tender was not a good one.
Mr. S. HERBERT said in some cases gas had been in.
troduced, but in many instances the introduction of it
would be so much more eapenaive that they had been
obliged to forego it. With regard to canteens, it was a
mistake to suppose than they always accepted the highest
tender. They always inquired into the character of the
party tendering.
Mr. HUME thought they ought not to get anything out
of the canteens, and suggested that they should be turned
into coffee shops, and be under the superintendence of the
officers.

The vote was aped to.
On the vote of i 1,9691. for the expenses of the Ordnance.
office,
Mr. HUME complained that, while 12,0)01. was er-
pended in the management of the department, there was
not a single officer at the head who had seen serriae in the
artillery.
The vote was agreed to.
291,6.574. was voted for the
abroad.

at home and

On hhe vote of 141,4371. for wages at home and abroad,
Viscount MONCK said he wished to call attention to
what was felt by his constituents to be a great grievance--
namely, the exemption of the government property Al
Portsmouth from the payment of local rates. That pro.
petty was used for national purposes, and it was unfair that
it should be the means of increasing local burdens. The
accumulation of large masses of government servants always
tended to increase pauperism; as an illustration of which
he might observe that, in the 13 years preceding 1848, the
average amount of the poor rates was 65., whereas the
average amount in other towns was only Is. d.
Mr. IidONSELL doubted whether the inhabitants of
Portsmouth would consent to have the government tits-
blishment removed on account of the alleged injustice.
Capt. SCOBELL thought the town had sufficient CCU.
pensation in the money spent by sailors.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 371,6971. for Ordnance stores for land and
sea

service,
Cal. LINDSAY wished to say a few won's with regard
to a new musket which bad been recently issued. In many
eases this weapon had proved very defective, and he knew
one instance in which half the supply had to be returned.
It was an old story that the arms served out by tbs
Ordnance were not generally very efficient. (Hear, bear.)
It was observed by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary
at War the other evening that it was desirable to render the
service as efficient as possible ; its efficiency must of coarse
dep,nd very much on the quality of the arms. He had
been informed of a case in which the axes and bill-hooks
were so bad that when trees had to be cut down they were
found totally unfit for use.
Mr. MONSELL had not been aware of any complsiet
with regard to axes, but would cause inquiry to be made
without delay. lie wished he could give the same answer
with regard to the new muskets. A considerable number
of them having been issued to one of the regiments of
guards, one-half of them were returned in consequence of
not being properly sighted. On becoming acquainted with
this matter the board, besides referring it to officer, in the
usual course, consulted two first-rate guninaleers, and
requested them to state in what place the defect ought to
have been first discovered. This question had not yet
been answered.

The vote was aeed to.
Ou the vote of 69.5,6651. for works, buildings, and recalls
at home and abroad,
Mr. M. GIBSON desired to be informed what public
object was sought by the large expenditure which had been
going on for so long a period at the Isle of Alderney. It
could not be the defence of so small an island, and its
thousand inhabitants. All that was asked by this vote for
the defence of London was 5,0001. ; and that they should at
the same time be called to lay out 160,0001, in addition to
all the former expenditure for defences at the Isle of Alder-
ney certainly appeared very anomalous.
Mr. MONSELL said, without going into details, he
would remind the hon. gentleman that a harbour of refuge
had been established at Alderney et a very considerable
expense ; and it must be obvious to any one who considered
the position of this island, that it was exceedingly desirable
that that harbour should be properly protected and defended
in the event of war. Eminent military authorities had de-
clared that with proper fortifications Alderney might be
made as tuning as Gibraltar.
Lord GODERICH asked whether in the new barracks
there was any improvement in the accommodation for mar-
ried men ?
Mr. MONSELL said that the matter had been attended
to in as far as it had been found possible.
127,2131. scientific breach.
Mr. HUME urged the necessity of completing the aid
survey. At present ships were constantly placed in sitar
tions of danger in consequence of the imperfect surreys that
existed of the coast.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had no intention of stopping
the survey, but he trusted to reduce the expense withal
diminishing efficiency.
Vote agreed to.
171,2151. non-effective service, military and civil.
Agreed to.
On the question that the resolutions be reported,
Mr. HUME called attention to the quantity of powder
wasted in firing salutes.
Mr. MONSELL mid that the quantity had been very
much reduced, and was still in course of reduction.
The house resumed, and the resolution was reported.
LANDLORD AND TENANT COMMITTEE.
The order of the day for the resumption of the adjourned
debate was then lead, and the several names agreed to
without discussion.
On the question that five do form a quorum,
Mr. DRUMMOND remarked that the principle of the
bill had been agreed to at the second reading, but now, it
appeared, some gentlemen were nominated on the com-
mittee who were opposed to that principle. The aim-
queues would be that the committee would be shut up all
the summer, and he for one objected to that sort of in-
tramural interment. (A laugh.) The inquiry would be
useless unless the committee understood what they were
going to do. He believed the principle was admitted, and
all the committee would have to do was to ascertain how
best it might be carried into effect.
Mr. CAYLEY observed that the case though nominally
affecting Ireland, would materially interfere with the tam
of land in England.
The SPEAKER reminded the house that the gunfire
under discussion waa not the constitution of the committee,
but whether five should be the quorum. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thought some explanation should be geese
of the views of the government.
Sir J. YOUNG reminded the hon. member for East
Surrey that the two bills, that of the hon. and learned mem-
ber for Kilkenny, and that of the late Attorney.Genenda
had been read a second time and ordered to be referred to
a select committee before Christmas, when the present go-
vernment were not in office, and all they had to do was to
carry out that order. Undoubtedly he had not acted with-
out the sanction of the government in the matter, and in
committee their views as to the bills under consideratioe
would be explained. He believed if they went into com-
mittee earnestly and fairly determined to discuss the difs-
- question to which the two hills referred, and oat of
which most of the grievances of Ireland were believed to
arise, a satisfactory and amicable settlement of the queetios
might be arrived at.
Mr. LUCAS did not consider the right hon. baronet had
answered the question put by the hon. member for But
Surrey, viz.: whether the government in proposing the
committee were to be understood as acceding to the principle
of the two bills, which, he believed, was the same, though
differing in the mode in which it was proposed they should
be carried out ?
Lord PALMERSTON thought the answer to the ma*
tion of the hon. member for East Surrey was obvious
enough. Certain bills had been brought in before the
adjournment, and in reading them a second time the house
determined to refer both to the Stele select committee. It
became, therefore, the duty of the government to come the
committee, but if the hop. gentleman or any other hon.
member asked in what condition the members of the
government mast be understood to be who were to sit Cu
that committee his answer was that they would go into the
inquiry perfectly unfettered. (Cheers.)
The motion was then agreed to.
SUPPLY, ARMY ESTIMATESI
The report of the committee on these estimates was
brought up.
Mr. VANCE hoped the decision of the government 1
regard to Kilmainham Hospital was not final. llis canal
tuents looked upon that decision as part of a system of ces-
traliaation, and his constituents had urged upon him to
insist upon the maintenance of that institution for the rear
tion of in-pensioners. Ile moved that the vote for Nil-
mainham and Chelsea be postponed for re-consideration.
Mr. F FRENCH seconded the motion.
Mr. S. HERBERT hail previously explained that he was
merely carrying out tho course determined upon by hi` pm
decessor in office is accordance with the reconnuendati

el the comini•tee on the army and navy expenditure. Thel
ohjectioo urged against the abolition of Kilmainhara, that
by transferring the resigners to Chelsea, they would be se-
pasted from their relations and counexions, did net apply,
Ingioluch m the in-pensioners at kilrnainhana were not all
Irish, soil those who were natives of that country evinced
Besso disinclination
i g ily to accept the oat-pension and
ide with their frends
Mr. GROGAN said a few words in favour of postponing
the rote.
Mr. HOME supported the rtootosseudetioa et the corn-
mime.
The house divided—
For the motion
Against
The report on that and the remaining vote was then
greed to.
gkAYE TRADE (NEWARG RA
ABIA). NA DA, AND SONAR,
IN
This bill passed through committee.
OFFICE OF EXAMINE
BR (COURT OF CHANCERY)
LL.

On the motion that this bill, u amended, be omuidiereds
Mr. MC LUNGS mind to add to the end of the sewed,
Provided always that nothing herein contained
csihallusel e. :;end or apply to any special esaminer who may be
appointed under the provisions of the last-recited act."
Mr. BETIIELL deprecated discussion on the subject,
and opposed the amoideuent.
Alter a few words from Mr. HENLIY and Mr. MALMO,
Mr. COCKBURN wished to correct an Impression which
stewed to be entertained, that Mr. Villiers was to gain any-
thing by the act. Mr. Villiers, under the set of last session,
was atiited to a petition, and he had resigned his office on
the faith of that understanding.
Mr. MULLING'S pressed his amendment to a division,
when it was lost by 61 to 127.
Certain verbal amendments proposed by Mr. Mailings in-
duced a discussion, in the course of which Mr.Malins denied
Mr. Villiers's right to a retiring pension, as he bad re-
sigma his office for a more important and a more lucrative
one. The hon. member wound up a series of pointed in-
sinuations by ascribing to the proposition something like
the character of a " job."
Mr. COBDEN ridiculed the house fur so quietly voting
away more than three milli as of money in little more than
seven hours, and then taking se much time and trouble
about a small matter. He defended the proposition itself,
and thought that personal feelings had 'mouthing to do
with the opposition.
Mr. V I LLIERS thought it right to explain the position
in which he stood, there being, m he believed, as anxiety
on the other side of the house to misunderstand dm case.
He had held the office of esaminer in Chancery gee alemetken
years, and announced his inteatioa of it, SIN after,
as had been alleged, but before the atiof the priest
government to power. His course thesuslesut hd been
straightforward, and he deprecated any personal attempts
to misrepresent it.
The bill wits ultimately agreed go, with Sing& verbal
amendments, of which the pelsolpal one (par gorlosiaXr.
Bethel], in modification of My. liallbee's Was
to the effect that the superannuation sllo canoe not
be granted to soy person anise the age of 85.
INLAND REVENUE OFFICE BILL.
This bill pseud through committee.

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