The Express.
London, England, 1847-03-05 00:00:00

Lord BANDON said that though he could not concur in
WWI of the expressions which had been used by the hoe,
gentleman towards powers with whom they were on terms
of friendly 'ahem*, he believed him to be right in the main
object of his address, and on that amount he felt fully war-
ranted in seconding the motion. Perhaps the most remark-
able part of the whole of these transactions was the disguee
and cautious reserve adopted by the powers alluded to,
which showed that they were engaged on matters on which
they could not fairly face the world. (Hear, hear.) Their
anxiety to keep their movements disguiad from
Europe, and more especially from England and France
as to the course they intended to pursue, not only by sup-
pression, but the expreseion of that which was not correct,
was most remarkable. All the communications which they
made to England and France, conveyed to the mind that
these powers had no other intention than such a modifica-
tion of the mite of Cracow as might snit the eirctuustances
of the case. The point as to the loan was one about which be
should like to hear some further explanation, for there
was great ambiguity in the terms. When in 1831, in con-
sequence of the modification of circumstances, it became ne-
cessary to negociate a new convention to carry out the spirit
rather than the letter of the original treaty, there were in-
troduced these words : "To secure to Russia the payment,
by England, of a portion of the said Dutch debt, in pursu•
ance of the general arrangements of the treaty of Vienna, to
which Russia gave her adhesion, and which arrangements
in full force." The inference was, that the pay-
ment by England of this debt, capital, or interest
was to be regulated by the continued allowance by Russia
"of the general arrangements of the treaty of Vienna,
which arrangements remain in full force," and that, conse-
quently, the arrangements being departed from, England
was at liberty to withhold payment. And certainly, if
England were so at liberty to withhold that payment, he
felt that they would only be doing their duty in expressing
the sense which all parties in the house entertained of the
great mischief of such a violation of treaties asked been com•
mimed bythe three allied powers,and more especially by Russia.
On the noble lord resuming his seat, there were loud calls
for Lord Palmerston, mingled with cries of " Divide." At

length
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said With reference to the
motion which has been made by my hon. friend the member
for Montrose, I shall, without entering into the general
argument which has been stated by him, and by my noble
friend opposite, shortly state the view which I take of this
question. With regard to the argument which has been
stated, that the three powers were not justified by the treaty
of Vienna in cencluding for themselves the oonsideratiun
whether the free state of Cracow should be maintained or
extinguished,—with regard to that argument, I cannot but
concur in the sentiment expressed by my hon. friend, and
the noble lord who sec-Jaded his motion. (Hear, hear.) I
think that it is clear, from the words of the treaty of Vienna,
from the prominence which all the arrangements with
respect to Poland took, both in the conferences preceding the
treaty, and in the articles of the treaty itself, I think it is
clear from such considerations that these articles were not
an immaterial part of that treaty, but that they did form one
principal stipulation, on which the great powers of Europe
had agreed, on the conclusion of a bloody and destructive
war. (Hear, hear.) Nor can I think, that while the ar-
rangements with respect to the Duchy of Warsaw, those
which placed it under the dominion of the Emperor of
Russia, formed the subject of many discussions and of less
correspondence, not only between the ministers, but also that
singular correspondence which took place between the
Minister of Foreign Affairs of this country and the Em-
peror of Russia himself—l cannot think that while
those arrangements formed a principal part of
the treaty, the arrangement which left a small
portion, a mere particle, as the allied powers called it, free
and independent, that that stipulation was an immaterial ass
insignificant point of the treaty. (Hear, hear.) It ammet
but appear, I think, that however small that territory miry
be, however small the population of that state, yet that the
treaty framed first between the three powers, and then by
all the powers who were concurring parties to the treaty of
Vienna, which provided that Cracow should be free and in•
dependent, meant that that freedom and independence
should leave to Poland, at least to some portion of the
Polish nation, a separate existence, and that giving up
much—admitting much—to the Emperor of Russia,
it was yet consecrated as a principle that some portion
of the Polish nation should retain an independent and sepa-
rate existence. (Hear, hear.) For those reasons, there-
fore, I think that its existence as a state having thus been
secured by the general treaty, that whatever complaints the
three powers had to make that Cracow was a foam of dis-
turbance, that revolutionary intrigues there found a centre
and means of organization, that there rose from that small
state insurrections against the three powers, that it was im-
possible to preserve those powers from such insurrectione,
still I think that if these reason were good sad valid, if they
were felt to have been strong, they should have been stated
to England and France. (Hear, hear.) I think that Eng-
land and France should have been invited to a congress,
or some species of conk fence, in which their consent should
have been asked to put an end to the state of things which
the three powers had declared to be intolerable, and which
they could no longer permit with safety to themselves.
(Hear, hear.) So much I think is clear from the general
construction of the treaty of Vienna, and also from the pas
sage which my noble friend read from the statement of the
Prussian minister for foreign affairs. In that statement the
Prussian minister admits in words, that if the arrangements
of the treaty of Vienna were to be altered and set aside,
conference and agreement with England and France would be
• necessary preliminary. In the next place, with
regard to the reasons given by these three powers, and stated
more amply by Prince Metternich on behalf of Austria,
they seem to me to be insufficient for the violent p eau
which have taken place. (Hear, hear.) I cannot
imagine that there could not have been precautions taken,
which, however they confined and limited the action of the
free and independent state of Cracow, would yet have been
security for the three powers ; that its name and inde-
pendence might have been maintained, while all danger
from refugees—from its being made a place where strangers
from all parts congregated and planned conspiracies—might
have been defeated and prevented. It does seem to me most
extraordinary that this little etate, this mere atom, sur-
rounded by Russia, Austria, and Prussia, those three
mighty monarchies, with such vast military powers, suck
unbounded means, having the :command of all the roads
leading to Oracow—having the power of marching troops at
any moment into the country—having themselves certain
rights constituted and assigned to them in the treaty of
Vienna, should find itself so powerful as succenfully to re-
sist all their attempts to prevent its being dangerous to their
safety. (Hear, hear.) I cannel think that those three
powers had sincerely, earnestly, and vigilantly used all their
powers in order to prevent Crathw being a focus of distur-
bance. I cannot but think that in the latter part of these
transactions, when all government was dissolved in Cracow,
and when disorganization had taken place, that that was not
an unwelcome circumstance • that it was not at all ungsal•-
tab's to the three power*, because it enabled them to say
all means of government is gone ,• Cracow is in a state of
anarchy and disorder, and no remedy remains but the total
abolition of its independence." (Cheers.) I think, therefore,
both as regards the treaty of Vienna, the importance of the di-
prdation regarding Cracow, and also with regard to the reasons
urged for art extinction, that in the first place there woo a
manifest violation of the treaty of Vienna, and Ithiesktlatifthe
question had been discussed in Congress, there bnesollbilat
proof, as far as we can see' that the three powers mil base
shown to England and France sufficient reams hr the
course they have adopted. (Hoar, hear.) Neither am I
convinced by the instances given by the minister of Austria
of various stipulations of the treaty of Vienna which have
been altered by mutual agreement between princes concerned
in this treaty, and whose territories were affected by ft. Small
portions of his principality given by a Duke of Cobourg,
and others transferred for some equivalent to other persons
for mutual convenience, all these things are natural and
obvious alterations of the treaty of Vienna, which might
take place without appeal to all the powers who
signed the treaty, and would in my mind bear
no resemblance to this great and important stipula-
tion, in which all the powers were agreed. (Hear, hear.)
Supposing an arrangement was made between Austria and
Prussia for the annexation to their own dominions of the
kingdom of Saxony, what reason for that act would it be to
say that some little bits of territory had been exchanged
between some minor powers without due reference to the
provisions of the treaty of Vienna. (Hear, hear.) It
would clearly be no satisfactory argument, and upon the same
ground, I consider the extinction of this free state • manifest
violation of the provisions of that treaty. (Cheers.) But
my hon. friend, not Waded with the protest upon this sub-
join
d which the Seastor, of State for Foreign Affairs has
directed to be delivered at the courts of the throe
principally interested, whim this house to concur rit.
e
resolutions which he ken *eel upon paper. Wick
to the first of these neeliaden s my noble friend to is
in accordancewith the media : with regard to the he is
net so entirely agreed, sad be doubts if the house aught to
meant to it. Now, with regard to the first resolution, which
Metes "that this house views with alarm and indiguetion the
of Cracow in the empire of Ausbrier'' I eismild
begial=edmine to consider that them is a wet be-
tween then which has been dons by my sable Mend, in
obedience to the command of her Majesty, sad that whisk is
now proposed to be done by this house. It is the
of the anent to make treaties, to enter into
end sosormosfa, to carry out the oorrespeodenes awl rah-
duns it' ibis oreatay with foreign powers,—so that
every treaty, may en eras, every written and
preens] sommtraskohea link • foreign state, is carried IS
la the name mad by the command of the sovereign. If a
treaty has been signed end ratified, as this treaty was signed
and ratified, by a minister of England, in the name of
George 111. and the Prince Regent, and if any violation of
that tenaty takes place, the person on whom it devolves to
make • representation, or to record a protest, is obviously
the minister of the ervegeign of England, by whom the orri-
sisal treaty wasemideied. But with regard to the functions
rapidiesellear", borrhma4.)inktbimiblirairitilma treatymessof aiswvhishmadeery different nature.
LatUreooc.r.-
ot die bar It it usual to NIL bur that
emosommoo 1 is the tom reaivetsoltakkor Gomm%
it is she .aril to ink /sr dot ermestesee. BeS Is albs a
resolution white is not duo Wu& of airmadlir bike the
House of Commons--a remind= ISerely an
opinion of sleds home on the eniesot of a treads= of
is not
a mad as a ardor course of proceeding in this assembly.
(Kw, Um) It appears to me, sir, that, whilst it is
obviously incumbent on the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, and on the advisers of her Majesty, to declare their
sense of any violation of a treaty, it is not advisable that the
House of Commons should affirm • resolution with respect
to the conduct of foreign pewees, unless it is intended to
follow up the resolution by some measure or mike,
on the part of the executive. (Load cries of " Hear,
hear!") I never admired the conduct of the French
Chambers in this respect in regard to Poland. It is usual
for the Chamber of Deputies, at the commencement dovery
session, to record their protest against the acts of the
Emperor Nicholas, and to make • declaration of the

nationality of Poland. I own I think the opinion of that
assembly loses much of its weight and potency by being sa
made without being in any way followed up,—by the record
of such a resolution, without any action following the dn.
claration. (Hear, hear.) Let it be observed how great a
difference there in between such a re-olution and the COQ-
duet of a sovereign. The sovereign, by making the treaty,
is forced, in the event of its infringement, in some way or
other to signify either favour of that infringement, or tan
acquiescence in it, or else to remonstrate or to protest
against it. But the House of Commons, not being
under the treaty, is in smithery. cases not necessitated to
make any declaration of opinion. I see no advantage
which can attend such a declaration. I think the home
would train nothing in dignity, in force, or in respect, by sa
alteration of its usual practice in these exam. Whilst, there-
fore, I have no objection to urge against the words of the
first resolution itself, this is the reason why I do object to its
being made a resolution of this house, and why I should be
disposed to move, if it were persisted in, that the house do
consider "the previous question." (Hear.) With regard
to the second and third resolutions, I should be disposed to
act in a like manner; bat with regard to the last,
" that this house is of opinion that the payments from this
country on account of the Russo-Dutch debt, should be
henceforth suspended," that resolution raises another and a
differeut question. Sir, the arrangements at the time of the
treaty of Vienna involved a union of Belgium with Holland,
and there having been a debt in Holland payable by Russia,
Great Britain took upon herself the payment of the interest
of that debt, in consideration of Russia being a party
to the arrangement by. which Holland and Belgium
were united, and agreeing to maintain it. (Hear, hear.)
When, alter a lapse of yearn, the two countries of Holland
and Belgium became separated, Russia, of course, no longer
attempted to maintain the arrangement, and therefore, by
the letter of the treaty, England might then have said to
Russia, "As you do not comply with the letter of the
treaty, we are free from the discharge of the interest of your
debt." But, although that might have been in accordance
with the letter of the treaty, it would have been most
inconsistent with the justice of the case • for the country
which, of all others, especially promoted the separation
of Belgium from Holland, was England herself—(hear,
hear)—and, therefore, for England to have said, " be-
cause you do not maintain that union which we have
wished to see dissolved, we shall not pay the interest of
this debt," would have been such an evasion of the
engagement under the treaty of Vienna, that I certainly
could not have taken part in it. (Hoer, hear.) But, sir,
the engagement under the treaty of Vienna was not by na
evaded. England, being tree from the letter of that engags-
meat, made a new engagement with Russia, by which the
agreed to continue the payment of the interest of this debt,
The real ground for continuing that payment wee.
that Russia had abided by the general arrangements eft&
treaty of Vienna, and that it was only in con.equeueo ad
acts sanctioned by England herself, that a different state of
things had arisen. But, undoubtedly, in this second agno-
men% words were introduced which secured to Russia the
payment of a portion of the Dutch debt, "in consideration
of her adhesion to the general arrangements of the Congress
of Vienna." Those words were introduced at the request of
the representatives of Russia herself, in order to show that
whilst Russia had departed from the original meat,
yet that she was not to be accused of any arrange
Eith or
violation of the general treaty. But still, as I think, the
original agreement, and the original reason for it, remained
in force. That original agreement was, that Russia should
corcur with Envland with respect to the territorial division
of Holland and Belgium, and, arising out of this particular
arrangement, there wee no other question referring
to the other clauses of the treaty of Vienna. Ruin
chose of her own accord to desire these words to be
inserted, but so fur as we were concerned, we did not wish
them to be recorded. I sac, therefore, that having rifled
to the spirit of this arrangement, I do not think it
would be just to take advantage of the insertion of the
words; and Mara having, so far as Belgium and
Holland are concerned, faithfully observed her
meats, I do not think, that in point aornC
dealing or of justice, we should be justified in
refusing to pay for her the interest of this debt. (Hear.) I
do think, however, that according to the wording of the ar-
rangement we might as fairly refuse payment. We might
say " you caused their insertion ; it was with your sanction
the arrangement was thus drawn, mid we will take ad-
vantage of those words and refuse payment of the amount."
That would be conformable with one interpretation of the
treaty. Those whom we have consulted as the highest au-
thorities as to the interpretations of acts of parliament bear-
ing upon treaties, the legal authorities usually consulted on
such matters have told us that, according to the spirit of the
arrangement entered into by the treaty and the convention,
this money ought to be paid. (Hear, bear.) It in, at the
most, stating it as favourably as you can for the motion
of the honourable gentleman, • doubtful point, ou
which, if we wished to take an advantage, we
might possibly claim it from some words in the conversation,
but in my opinion it would be acting directly againstits
spirit were we thus to take advantage of a plea which in a
court of law might be urged to get rid of a contract, but
which, as between nations, ought never to be used. (Hear.)
We should, I think, lower our position and deprive ourselves
of that advantage we now possess, if we were to reduce this
to a transaction of pounds, shillings., and pence. (Hear.)
I consider that in the late transactions of Europe, though ea
more than one occasion. and by different powers our wishes
have not been complied with; our desires have not
been listened to ; our protests even have been disregarded;
yet there does remain with us a moral strength whisk
no power can effect. No power can charge us with
having violated treaties; no stipulations have we esteem!
into, of which it can be said England has violated
her engagements, or set them at nought. (Hear, hear.)
We are ready, in the face of Europe, however inconvenient
some of those stipulations may be to us, to hold ourselves
bound by all our engagements, and keep the naroo—nie
fame and the honour of the crown of England unsullied,—
(hear, hear,)—and to hold that uneallied honour se • jewels
which we will not suffer to be tarnished. (Hear, keen)
With that sentiment, sir, if I could ask my noble friend
go to the count, and say, to be sure you have entail a
treaty—to be sure you have extinguished an indentation
' state—though we know this to have been done, you ski
have no threats of war frost us—we shall not arm for the
purpose of war—we shall admit the state of Cracow to be
henceforth extinguished, and her inhabitants reined*
subjection—we shall admit that the names freedom and&
dependence to them are lost for ever; but this we wills,
there is • claim of some thousands which we on tab
against you, and which we now pay for you—we willow
throw the burden on your shoulders' and so we will Tenn
ourselves for this your violation of the treaty—l say lir we
did this we should be taking a pent and using bagasse
unbecoming the past character of England, or the poll&
which I would have her hold for the future as ageing*,
world. (Cheers.) Having thus stated my opined is
strongly as I could on this transaction, I ask you now, set
to come, in this House of Commons, which does net samill
without great provocation, interfere with the foreign Ws-
tions of the empire—not to come to any idle resolutesaysn
which you do not intend to act—(hear)—and, is the assl
place, not to look upon the question as a nag
matter of money value—not to go and ask how unit
this Russian debt stock may be worth in the market, en
how mach we shell free ourselves from by refusing MOW
payment ; but I wish you toy reserve that which [Until '
Inestimable value. I wish yen to allow, as the home his
hitherto allowed by its silence, the protest of the Swaim"
for Foreign Affairs to remain in full force, es &doffs:Mica Cil
our part, which will have its value depend on it with re-
rto future transactions, and show that we
eethem the faith of treaties, and thus, with zin
gad to matters that may hereafter himpen,....6alst
go have it to say that we have sought no interest of
in these matters—we have looked at no interest, Wit
petty, concerning ourselves, but have regarded only thee&
interests of Europe in desiring that that settlement, 11110
put an end to a quarter of a century of war and blesithad
should remain in its full force and vigour. We hare nand
that sentiment to the world, and we trust the reprobating&
which this transaction has been met, will, for the Mask*
duce all powers—however they may desire to violate gong
—to consider that they will meet with the dinstmegellie
monstrance and protest of England, and that ear nag&
shall stand before the world untarnished by ally Setae&
(Cheers, and cries of " Adjourn.")
A desultory discussion ensued ; and ultimately, t
siderable opposition on the part of Mr. T. Duncons,
fY
adjournment of the debate until Thursday nett
agreed to.
FACTORIES BILL.
.Tahisoraberldwtoasbecommirecommitted paarodf;.ormothe, reported to the halls
The house adjourned at twenty-five minutes to onseden

FACTORIES BILL.
Dram's on question of going into committee on this NI
Ayst, NM ; Noes, 100.
AYES.
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