The Express.
London, England, 1847-05-01 00:00:00

thewholoof thiscountry were excluded. Oe what ground were
other demevingrail way undertakings to be told, " We will not
only withhold similar assistance from you, but we will ren-
der it more difficult for yon to raise money in the market,
by•the assistance which we acted to certain other schemes."
(Hear, hear.) Ent it had been stated that, so highly woe
the Greet South-Western Railway of Ireland thought of,
that it was not dependent on Irish eapitelists for advance',
but that English capitalists readily came forward to aid it.
If this were really the case, if it belonged not to those desti-
tute shareholders' of whom much had been said, but to men
ofsubstance, like the right hon. gentleman behind him, the
Lordityor of York—(laughter); ;—sagaciont men, who
as
were speculators to the prost of gain ; upon what
part s grounds were they to be allowd to borrow money
at five per cent.,_ when everybody else was paying eight ?
(Hear. hear.) He thought this a most improper occasion
for • general debate on the currency—a subject Into which
the single member for Birmingham had entered. (Laughter).
Mr. SPOONER—I did not introduce it.
Sir R. PEEL. said it was quite clear that that hon. gentle-
man was the chief authority for the doctrine he professed ; he
had studied the question more than many other persons ; he
represented that constituency which had the strongest feel-
ing on the subject ; end, though ho had not commenced the
dominion, he had lent the unction of his high authority to
it. He (Sir It. Peel) did not wish tube provoked into 'general
discuriun, but it was impossible he shorld observe an entire
silence sr acquiescence in his arguments. He ( Mr.S pooner) had
made a sort of promise that dim (Sir Robert) would tell him
what a paund was at the time of the conquest, he would tell
him what he (Mr. Spooner) or any other banker meant
when he issued a note to the public, and said, " I promise to
d mend 61." His (Sir Robert's) question was,
InVha on
de
mend
is the .51. which you promise to pay ?" That seemed
a very simple question ; but the hon. gentleman said that he
(Sir Robert) was an insidious man, and that he could out
trust himself to answer. (Laughter.) A pound, at the
conquest, and at various subsequent periods, mi,,Mt have
varied as to the quantity of the metal ; but, at sea y given pe-
riod, it had always meant a definite quantity. Treat quan-
tity was at first regulated by weight ; and he apprehended
the pound had taken its name from the circumstance of its
corresponding to a pound weight of silver. However that
might be, and however the quantity might have varied from
time to time, " a pound" had always signified a definite
quantity. Since the reign of Queen Elisabeth we hod cer-
tainly had both a gold and silver standard ; and though the
coin might have been occasionally debased, and was constantly
worn, still the intention of the law had always been that " the
pound"should denote a definite quantity of th • precious metals.
The hon. gentleman said, that if Mr. Pitt asked, in 1797,
" what was a pound," this country would have been lowered
in the scale of nations. But, if any man said to Mr. Pitt, in
1797, " Is it your intention to have an inconvertible paper
currency ?" he would have have said, " God forbitt !"
(Hear, hear.) It never was his intention. No man would
have deprecated it more than Mr. Pitt. But here was the
evil of a first departing from principles. (Hear, hear.) Once
involved in it, even Mr. Pitt could not go back. (Hear,
hear.) Whether the glories of the war wore owing to in-
convertible paper or not, this he would say, that the social
condition of the country was impaired by it Oleic, hear.)
He would tell his hon. friend who suffered most from it.
It was that class who received the wages of labour—(hear,
bear).—for though the wage, of labour might nominally
remain the same. the command they had over the necessaries
of life was very much reduced. (Hear, hear.) But not-
withstanding all the glories of the war, the currency before
1819 was moat imperfect. In what respect? B. cause it
was inconvertible. (Hear, hear.) He understood his hon.
friend to say that it was unwise in 1819 to restore the an-
cient gold standard; that parer, not being equal in value
to gold, though nominally it professed to be so, and, there-
fore, when they were arranging the currency, they ought ,
not to have adopted, as the standard, gold at the value of
31, 17..10;4. the ounce, but gold at 41. 6s. or 41. 10s. the
mines, or something which might represent the depreciation
of paper which had taken place. But, with the exception
of pecuniary engagements, it web a matter of utter indif-
ference, provided tin promissory note was to be paid in
coin, whether they adopted the gold standard of
Sr. 17s. 104 d., or 41. 2a., or 41. 55., or anything else,
It would be no relief to commerce if the rtannard was now
41. 60., instead of 31. 17s. 104 d. (Hear, hear.) Would not
the fortigner know the value of the currency, make what re-
duction they might? (Hear, hear.) For the payment of
internal debts, indeed, it might make a difference, but it was
a matter of perfect indifference as to the pressure on the
Bank in a time of commercial difficulty, provided that there
MN the obligation to pay at tome time or other in coin, the
whole value of the note. (Hear, hear.) Would his hen.
friend undertake to revise the arrangement of 1819, because
that was the question? If he did not do that an inconvert
ible paper currency would offer no remedy. If they would
have one pound sons, indeed, and encouraged the export of '
geld, that might give some relief for a time; but if they
maintained an inconvertible paper currency, and were
not at the same time prepared to revise all the
tractions which not only preceded 1819, but the
whole of the transactions which had taken place since 1819
it would not have the slightest effect in diminishing these
difficulties. The transactions in the funds since 1819, had
taken place in the appreciated currency, and every man who
purchased en estate since then paid for it in the same way.
Was it possible, then, that the most strenuous oppo-
nent of the arrangement of 1819 could now propose
to readjust the immense transactions which had taken
place since 1819. His honourable friend admitted
that the act of 1844 was necessary to maintain the act of
1819. It was the complement of the act of 1819 ; and those
who supported the gold standard of 31. 175.104.1. were bound
to support the act of 1844. He must say that the act of
1844 was completely misunderatood. The main object of
that act was to secure the convertibility of paper into gold.
That was its principal object ; but another object of
it certainly was to have such a currency as should
ensure to the holder of paper the full equivalent of its
nominal value, and at the same time should not restrict the
ordinary commercial transactions of this great country.
(Hear, hear.) Well, his firm belief was that the act of
1814 did not impose any such restriction. It was erroneous
to suppose that that act contained in itself a self acting prin-
ciple, and relieved the Bank of England from nll responsi-
bility. He totally denied the claim for relief from all
responsibility-on :he part of the Bank of England in carry-
ing out the act of 1844. The issue department contained,
he admitted, a self-acting principle, because the amount of
notes issued from that department was governed by law, and
the Book had no discretion. But the Bank had a discretion
in the banking department. It was responsible for the general I,
tuperintendence of the monetary canceros of the country.
(Hear.) It was bound by prudence, caution, and foresight
to prevent ultimate embarrassment and pressure, to prevent
an undue increase of circulation, but also to prevent an
undue restriction of it—(hear, hem)—and he understood
that the Bank recognised the principle on which the nct of
1844 was founded, and acknowledged the obligation to con-
duct its concerns with some reference to this principle. The
Bank had a right to receive from him testimony to its
high honour, and he must may he
that establishment, without bearing testimony to the high
honour of those concerned in it (hear, hear) and with
the imperfect knowledge he, not being entrusted with the
rnponsibility of government, possessed, he spoke of it with
hesitation. But he felt hound to my, that so fie from any-
thing which now occurred impeaching the act of 1844, that
both the time of prosperity,. and now this present time
of adversity, convinced ham that the principle of that
art was founded on sound policy, and that it ought to be, en
ft: se he was aw.me, strictly upheld and maintained. (Hear,
hear.) He could not help feeling that a rigid ob-ervance of
the general principles on which that act was founded would
have prevented, at least, the temnsity of the evil. (Hear,
hear.) Why, this act of 1844 never professed to teach the
people of this country--at least, it did not inculcate upon
them the necessity of caution ; but, he; must say, that there
had been, en the part of almost all the community, a I
great disregard of those indications of danger which
were perfectly legible since the month of August,
1846. (Heir, hear.) He thought the whole community
had neglected those signs of the times which could not be
mistaken; and, speaking with all deference, the Bank autho-
rities bad been equally unmindful of thomaigna. (Hear.) The
Bank, at the beginning of the year, in January, way exposed
to a drain of geld which continued for some period of time.
It was the duty of the Bank especially, as superintending the
general monetary concerns of the country, to have made
artier provision foe the danger which it was clear must arise.
He could not understand why they did not raise the rate of
discount sooner. Many brokers nod other discount houses laid
me novo to the Bank on account of its 'great. respectability.
These parties, when a time of difficulty came, expected ac-
commodation from the Bank of England, and if the bank
suddenly turned round and refused that accommodation, it
was an act of great harshness, and one which would be
motion the interests of the bank itself. It was true that the
bank had a right, in • c. rtain degree, to influence the mone-
tary transactions of this country, but if, in January last, the
bank authorities bad raised the rate of discount to 6 or 6
per ant., rather titan impose any arbitrary restrictions with
reference to the date to which bills for discount were to run,
and by timely precautions in other respects, he (Sir It. Peel)
believed that the difficulties which now existed, if notentirely,
would certainly very materially have been avoided. (Hear.)
But the whole question really at issue was, whether
there should be a eon vettible paper cur • icy—whether there
should be a at indard of value to regulate that currency. He
might be supposed to have a prepossession hi favour of the
measure which be had some years ago introduced ; but if
the house thcmght it could adopt a real remedy for the pre-
sent embarrassment, or cure the existing panic, no paternal
regard for the measure which he had some yearn since car-
ried would prevent him consenting to en alteration of the
system which that measure effected, but his firm belief was
that no relief would be afforded by any intermeddling with
that measure. (Hear, hear.) The exchanges would not be
benefited by an increase of the currency, and therefore care,
and motion ought to prevail, lest in the hope,
of relieving present difficulties permission was given
to the bank to mine 16,000,0001. instead of 14,000,0001.,
and thereby the currency should be depreciated. (Hear.)
If it be true that the present state of trade—of speculative
trade—was good—supposing that the Bank was perfectly
solvent—supposing that the paper currency maintained its
value---supposing that the wages of labour were paid in
paper, which was cult to he eqeseded in the purchase of
provisions—he entreated the home not to be tempted by the
hope of solving this dillselay to encounter the greater
danger. If the currency shield be so depreciated that the
Bank should not be able le maintain the patent of its paper
in the gold in which that pager was to he paid—if
the cautery had spit to encounter ell done eta from
which, since 1819, it bed esseped with is Era pain and ent-
ering—in his opinion *lit enewentat email men he ask with-
outebaking to the teswistienthepreeperkyetthe nentwa, and
with it the happiness, seselbet, and preeperity of the great
mass of its isolustrions population. (Chew]
Lord J. RUSSELL—After the speeds of the right hon.
baronet, especially as it referred to the Mall of the resolu-
tion which was in the Speaker's hawk I art a* the
attention of the house for a abort time while I none die diffi-
culties of the position of the governmeet, le order that they

might eemeider the merits of the question before them, not
simply as a question solely affecting general principles, but
as a question relative to the present condition of Ireland, and
the enormous calamity with which that counts./ has been
visited. The hon. member for Wycombe (Mr. B. Osborne)
has put to me a question. The hon. member said there was
an immense amount of surplus labour in Ireland, and
inquired how did we propose that this surplus labour should
be employed? Now, I must decline, on the
.part of her
Majesty's government, assuming the responsibility of pro-
viding far the absorption of any great mass of labour that now
exists in Ireland, to answer that question. lo the
course of times past, we bare, owing to the faults of kgisla-
tion—owing, perhaps, to the faults of landlords—owing to
the faults of tenants with long leases, and, perhaps, owing
to all them circumstances combined, arrived at a state of
things in Ireland in which an immense class of the propels
-
lion living upon agriculture are not paid the wages of
labour sufficient for their subsistence. (Hear, hear.) An
immense calamity happens to that omatry—the destruction
of its produce, according to the estimate of the Under-
secretary' for Ireland, amounted to not less than 18,000,0001.
sterling. It is supposed that the food—potatoes the chief
nutriment of the population—could not suffice in future.

What was to heco'ica of the population, then, in the years
to come i I deny on the part of the government the respon-
sibility of completely and suddenly answering that
question. (firer, hear.) A more difficult problem
for solution never came before the legislature. The evils
which had been growing for ages have now arrived at ma-
turity, and the effects of the sudden destruction of the potato
crop could not be completely obviated by any course the
government or the legislature could take. What both the
government and the legislature could do was, to mitigate the
present sufferings of the people, and to try to edict a transi-
tion to a better state of things. I need not refer to the mea-
sures which were taken with a view to the first of these
objects. Those measures hare been costly—they have been
adepted at the expense of considerable difficulty to
the finances of the country : but when, as some
philanthropists put forth with great calmness that
two millions of people should net be allowed to
perish in the land without any interference what-
ever, it would have been repulsive to the feelings of the
present House of Commons, and to any minister who might
occupy the treasury bench, if we had not attempted to miti-
gate the evils which the Irish population were suffering.
With these views the government had carried measures
more or des directed towards this end; and I do not regret
the attempt made to maintain 730,000 men on public work'
in Ireland, because I believe that those efforts have been
most conducive to the preservation of the lives of
great muses of that population. (Hear, hear, bear.)
The next question, and the moat serious, is one which I spe-
cially referred to in the course of my explanation at the com-
mencement of the session—namely, to attempt, by measures
of a permanent nature, to facilitate the transition to a better
order of things, and to provide for the future prosperity of
the country. I would say at once, in answer to what fell
from the hon. member for Wycombe, that I could not pre-
tend—that I never have pretended, and do not now pre-
tend—to frame a comprehensive measure, or a series
of comprehensive measures, which, without modification,
proposed all at once, could beadopted by parliament to work
infallibly to the end in view. I have no such confidence ; I
em far from being so sanguine as to the effect of tLe measures
I propose. All I could expe:t would be, to propose measures
generally well calculated to effect the object. Some of them
might be adopted, and might be found beneficial ; others
might be adopted in part; whilst many might require
exceedingly to be changed, or entirely to be abandoned.
In my statement at the commencement of the session, I
said we proposed to advance a million for the improvement
of landed estates is Ireland, and a million for the reclamation
of waste lands. In considering the former of these mea-
sures, we thought it advisable to add one-half as much again
to the sum onginally proposed, so as to nuke the loan a mil-
lion and a half, and in that state the measure passed. With
regard to the other pleasure, I have little more to
say than to repeat what was stated by my
right honourable friend in the early part of this
evening. The virtue of that measure—its great power
of effecting good—depended on its being compulsory. Bat,
after the mama' of that measure were stated to parliament,
we heard from various quarters that a measure of a compul-
sory character on the landlords was considered too violent,
and that in this, and more especially in the other house, a
measure based upon such a principle seas likely to meet with
strenuous opposition. (Hear, hear.) We then con-
eidered—and this was before the Easter recede—
whether the measure without the compulsory clauses would
not be so adapted as to effect a considerable good, though
not with the same promptitude or the same certainty. The
measure was undertaken in that shape by my right hon.
friend the Secretary far Ireland ; but the more he went into
it the greater he found to be the difficulty of adapting it
shorn of its 'compulsory provisions. Now, I am frankly
stating what occurred upon this enbject—(hear, hear)—and
the course with respect to it which we deemed it most
advisable to pursue. Having reconsidered it we thought it
desirable that the bill should be laid upon the table for un-
sideration ; but without making it a measure to which we in
any way pledged ourselves, or which we in any degree
determined to proceed with. With regard, therefore, to
these two measures, the house will see that one half-million
of the sum originally proposed to be voted, is no longer in•
tended to be applied to the soil of Ireland under these bills.
That is, I think, an answer to the armament of
the right hon. gentleman opposite, that it is unfair
to the parties from whom we accepted the loan, that we
should contract a new expense. Whilst upon the statement
which I reads at the opening of the session, it appeared that
we proposed to spend a sum of 2.000,0001., it will be evident,
from my. present explanation, that the sum intended to be
appropriated amounts to 2,120,0001. It cannot, therefore,
be ionaidered that we have at all broken faith with the par-
ties to the loan, and I think the house will agree that they
have nothing to complain of But the right hon. gentleman
has other objections to make to the proposition. He says
that either this is a measure involving a principle which will
oblige us to incur a heavy burden and to risk the finances of
the country, or else that it is a measure partial in its effects.
Now, I think that is an argument which, if carried to its
extreme, would apply to all the advances usually made by
loan, under the authority of parliament. There is 1,50,0001.
voted each year for loans to public works. A railway company
comes and takes thislso,oool. Why it is obvious thatthe next
railway company which comes must be content with refusal,
upon the ground that the sum to be leaned for the year is I
appropriated. In the same way, sir, we may surely fairly say,:
We find ourselves able to advance 620,0001., but it Is not
convenient to us, and therefore we decline to advance any
larger sum." (Hear, hear,) These railways, be it
remembered, have applied to the loan commis-
sioners they hare made out their case for as-
sistance to those commissioners' satisfaction—the commis-
sioners say they are satisfied with -the security offered, and
that they would advance the money to the companies if the
money were in their hands. Why, surely it is fair to say,
under such circumstances, that we will grant this loan now,
and that when other parties come in, iu Aamast, if come in
August they do, that we will then say, " We gave as far as
we could, and we cannot listen to any further propo-
sition." (Hear, hear.) I say that this is a per-
fectly fair and legitimate course to pursue, taking
into consideration the present state of Ireland. If we were
to consider this as *common case, occurring in England, our
advance might possibly involve us in obligations to listen to
further claims. Bat, as the case stands, it is one peculiar in
its nature—vast in its magnitude. The people of Ireland being
obliged to adopt another sort of food than that to which they
have been accietomed, the question is, are there any means
at the disposal of the government by which they may
make that transition easier ? (Hear, bear.) I say that for
this purpose it e ill not do to rest upon a single remedy. It
would be a great fault in us were we to say that we had any
one measure which we proposed as a universal ?mum fur
all the ills of the country. It is only, in my opinion, by a
variety of measures that we can hope even partially to relieve
Ireland from her difficulty. If we can must in constructing
piers and harbours which will be useful in promoting the
fisheries of Ireland—that will be a great advantage. If we
can increase the produce of Inland by aiding in the reclama-
tion of her waste lands—that will also be • great advantage.
As to railways, I thought that in my address in opposition to
the bill of the noble member for Lynn, I had taken special
cars to say, with sufficient distinctness, that though I
could not congest, under the eireanastanees of the country, to
drain our finances, by advancing 16 millions of money to
railway companies, yet that I was not opposed to advances
of money for public works, and that, of all public works, I
knew of nom likely to be more useful than Irish railways.
(Hear, hear). And that sentiment, sir, was entirely in con-
formity with the opinion I expressed in 1839, when my
noble friend (Lord Morpeth), the then Secretary
for Ireland, proposed to advance moneys, under
certain conditions, for the formation of railway
works—a plan which I regret the house did not at the time
receive with greater favour, because I feel ensured, thee if
acted on, those proposals of Sir John Burgoyne end my
lamented friend the late Mr. Drummond, would, ere this,
have greatly improved the condition of the Irish peasantry.
Their armament, es very ably stated in their report, is that
railroads will be the means of giving the agricultural pro-
duce of Ireland to England ; that you will thus get a better
market for that produce, increase the agricultund wealth of
Ireland, and thereby increase its profitable and useful labour.
I think they state that about 1,200,000 tons of agricultural
produce are brought yearly from Ireland to England, and
they state particularly that with regard to the railroad be-
tween Dublin and Conk, that that railreat would go through
a country of average fertility, some parts of which are nay
rich in agricultural produce, and that they think that a great
amount of agrieulturil produce would be conveyed by
the railway. Now, I have never been of opinion
that employment on a railway would be of use in affording
a mitigation of immediate and urgent distrem, but I have,
on the other hand, always contended that it would be •
great remedy against the future misery of the country
against that misery which we have seen in t years—that
it would be a means of increasing the agricultagricultural wealth of
Ireland, end thereby giving labour to thouaands, and,
perhaps, in future years to millions, who must, otherwise,
sink under the change which is likely to take place. (Hear,
hear.) I say, then, that considering the peculiar
state of Ireland ; considering the very great dint-
malty with which we have to deal—considering
that the sum now proposed is not larger than that
which I proposed on the 25th of January ; we are justified
in asking the house to meat to the vote. The right hon.
gentleman says it is no argument for giving 620 0001., to say
that it is in the exchequer, and that you are therefore able
todispose of that sum. I entirely agree with Lim in that
respect; but surely he will not deny that the state of Ire-
land, during the present year, does teem an exception to
almost every rule, and does impose very great difficulty,
both upon this house and upon the government—
(hear, hear) ;—and that a measure, trenching on the
ordinary rules of finance, may be justifiable when you
have as great a difficulty to deal with, and when the pur-
-1 parity of a country so closely united with England is the ob-
i met at which yen are aiming. Sir, it appears to me, that
the vote which we ask to-night may on these grounds be

justified. (Haar, hoar.) I feel very heavily—l—
ihe whole of this you, ever since the failure of the potato.
amp was first ascertained, the very deep reeponsibility which
MO upon the government in reference to this question. We
have been attacked on various sides, and on various 6reuoda.
that it is a great waste of the public money--a most unjus-
tifiable demand on the people of this country, to
inalkhlriegtilitiliyfic;:couounndidwmeta:::ii'll;:Pfrunmirttry. sut.(h)ffan,:hridennipse:u,
mriPrea:nwreidladerpeci.aisiB°'"nagliml,hsi(eVaiag.H.l6l:::
land, exclaim against the heartlessness of a government
which would allow any persons to perish while means op
to be found by which food might be supplied to every per-
son in the country. Sir, we have steered between these two
opposite points. I cannot think that either of them is right;
I cannot think that it would hays been right to stand by
with arms folded, arid declare that we would wake no
attempt to relieve Ireland in her present calamity.
Neither, on the other hand, would it have been light,
nor should we have been justified in declaring,
that we would attempt to feed the whole population of Ire-
land, and that we hoped by the means we should adopt to
prevent such suffering and such death by starvation, as can-
not but occur during such • famine as has happened in the
present state of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, air, I moo
say, with regard to this last question, that I believe that
the declaration which we made, (het we should not
interfere with the supply of food from abroad,
has brought food in greater quantities to Ireland
than it would otherwise have come there. (Hear,
hear.) I believe there is no part of the continent of Europe
in which corn and provisions are cheaper than thee are now
found in Ireland ; but it does not follow but that many
must die of want, and many more of fever. Now we have
proposed to put on the property of Ireland the burden which
properly belongs to it. We have proposed that, on the part
of England, • sacrifice to • very considerable amount should
be made, in order to kelp the people of Ireland and the
proprietors of Ireland in this great difficulty. The
honourable member for Wycombe eked whether
we meant to destroy the property of Ireland. 1 may my,
in reply, that our best hops of getting through this diffi-
culty is, that the landlords will be beth able and willing to
assist in the work. (Heat.) There may be some whose circum-
stances are so embarrassed that their best course would be
to avail themselves of the facilites which the legislature will
afford, in order to get rid of their title of proprietors alio-
Esther. But, with regard to many others, lam convinced,
from the exertions they have made, and the knowledge
they pawns of the country, that our best chance of
getting through this difficulty lies in their being able in
haute years to bear the burdens which are imposed open
them. We hope that they will look to the improvement of
their lands as • source of income both to themselves, to their
tenants, and to the labouring chute, living on the lands. It
is to the union of those three classes—landlord, tenant, and
labourer, not to any violent eenvuLion, but, on the contrary,
to a more kindly knitting together of the various orderof
society—that we look as affording the best chance of the re.
generation of Ireland. And now, sir, I will say a few words
upon the question which has been raised in the course of the
evening with respect to the c cumercial state of this country,
and more especially to the state of the currency. With re-
gard to the commerce.] state of the country, my right hon.
friend did not say what he has been represented, in the
course of this debate, as having said, that the danger was
past, that there was no longer any danger to be impreleoded.
(Hear, hear.) Far from ;my right hon. fend stated vari-
ous circumstances which induced him to take a more alter-
ful view of our condition than he would have done a week or
ten days ago. There are other circumstances, of a more
general nature, which may, I think, induce us to look with
hope to the future. I think, in the tint place, that it name
be said that there is any depreciation of our currency from
excess. (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, our erthanges
with the continent of Europe are favourable, and show no
depreciation of that kind. In the next place there ha, not
been that over-speculation in trade and in goods which has
sometimes been seen to produce such an accumula-
tion of stocks, that it was not likely that there
could be any profitable trade for • long tins to come. On
the contrary, the course of trade has been healthy, and, se
far as I have been able to inquire, and to get information
from various quarters, the stocks are not so large as they
have usually been at this period. In the next place, the
nacaufecturers are far from beiug without orders, or obliged
to suspend their trade for want of orders from foreign
countries. (Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly, the state of the
continent—the very high price of food there, must make a
very great different* with regard to the demand from
thence. But with regard to America, lam told there are
very large orders in the manufacturing districts, which I
do expect to see executed, and we shall thus be able, by the
export of our manufectures, to pay for • portion, at
least, of the food which we have had to im-
port. These are all circumstances which are, I think,
favourable as to the future commercial state of this country.
That there has been great difficulty—that there is great d-
culty at the present moment, I am obliged to confess. There
is great difficulty at present in the circumstances detailed by
my right hon. friend, and by the right hon, gentleman oppo-
site, the member for Tam worth ; and there is this gem:rah:awe
for that difficulty, that there has been a very considerable
draia of gold, and that no person is in possonite
of exact information as to the further drain of
gold which may be required. (Hear, hear, hear.)
There is information on this subject in my hands, but though
I feel much reliance oa its source, I should not consider my-
selfjustified in laying it at penult before the house. Hon.
gentlemen have denounced our present system. and, in fact,
any payment in specie. (" No, no," from Mr. Spooner.)
I have heard several speeches on the subject, all pointing
out the evil of the present state of things, .all speaking
vaguely u to a remedy, and all as I understood rum,
bearing out the interpretation I have given them. (Hear,
bear.) One of these gentlemen, however, salt of the act
of 1844, that it was a necessary complement of the act of
1819 ; and, indeed, an improvement upon it ; and I, for my
part, concur in the opinion that it was an improvement, for
whereas under the act of 1819 the pressure would not have
come on until we bad been in a state of extreme danger,
until there had been, perhaps, only two or three millions of
bullion in the Bank, the consequences of the act of 1844
brought on the pressure at a much earlier period,
giving at once the warning and the mean. for
preparation. (Hear, hear.) this I conceive to have been
the effect of the act of 1844. And what was the act of 1819?
The return to cash payments—to the convertibility of paper
into gold. I do not understand what medium the hoe.
monger for Birmingham and his friends would have be-
tween paper convertible into gold and an unlimited paper
currency • what other alternative they would propose (milts
acts of 1819 and 1844 than a restriction of gold and a return
to paper currency—("No, no," from Mr. Spooner).—
The hon. a entleman will, perhaps, take an early opportunity
of explaining, then, what be dues mean : but, fur my part,
I do not comprehend any other alternative to the paper
currency. I take him to advocate payment in specie,
guarded by certain provisions, whether by thous of 1819 or
1844 is not now so material, but by some such provisions, of
a kind similar to those of these two acts. (Hear, hear.)
Ever since 1819, this has been the point of controversy
between these who woald have a currency
on bullion, and those who an in favour of a paper
currency, irrespective of bullion. (Hear.) With respect to
the minor point, whether the act of 1819 was satisfactory in
itself, that is not now the question between us ; fur the hon.
gentleman himself admits that the other act was a necessary
complement of it. Upon that question, therefore, I will only
Of at I believe our present system of currency is founded
isgemsound principles. (Hear.) I believe that the measure now
le operation has had the useful effect of inducing the
Bank, at an earlier period than it would have done under
the act of 1819, to take measures of precaution, which mea-
sures, thus taken, I further believe will save ea teem mach
imiamoa.ipreasureve
tanth,:drtdasdisnytressopit.d.iniub;futhtitirtee..Lideubew,
oproh:l7...d.)bel:dyobilt
LIM as the allowing the act of '44 to have its
legitimate operation. (Hear, bear.) This is the first
time it has been bologht into actual operation,
and its effect has been te lead the Bank to many measures
of precaution, mamma Alai believe to hare been most
essential. I think llMEheloga d the B ink will in future
have the means of mashing the operation of this measure,
of adopting either ego* stringency or giving such relaxa-
tions as it may csoollfise useful or necessary ; and therefore
I hold that, thee. a morrerey founded on bullion I. a
currency whisk ta fiestreemlar ellended by inconvenience
in times of elogetbi genus, it is the safest and Met
currency this miff gin adopt, and that there is no coarse
we could talkie* OM er so wise as to declare that we will
not alleviate pewee pressure at the certain out of making
that prams severe hereafter. (Hear, bear.)
' Mr. ill=i considered that the blame cut noon
the Beek was altogether unfounded. 'He
ansigolOsi st with this right hoe. baronet in think-
. begfh• of giving government elinciinoe to private
see Swett with danger to the country.
611111 seems he should vote against the pro-
ration hnhee die berm. (Question.)
Lord O. BENTINCH rose, bat the cries of " Question,"
e Divide," became so general, that he with some difficulty
ebersedi a beerier. He said that no one could eon-
et puss taken by the right honourable
tAs imeaber for Tamworth on that evening,
tebe=he • mem whieb the right bon. bar..net had taken
doss aralbsolass, as Ms (Lord O. Sentinel's) motion, was
bons la rosollsothst. The right hon. baronet's conduct was
consistent. 11. (Lord G. Bentinck) did not deny
at the present moment, there was great pressure on the
amay-sasskat, and great embarrassment throughout our
MenealffilislOnelallealt but he did not think, or fear that
ghee he meek dew stir industry, would at all add
ar that embarrassment. (Hest, hear.) It
Sp brown that in simulation a Ave pound note ins
lasMd Pee thirteen times in the worse of a year, &edit
might be peommed that a sovereign turned over a gust
many PP but it was also known that a sovereign,
if seat clawed did net Pim in lees than twelve
lAe &Me Me' iaalat s frenthaer the time it would
take *him a sowaript be* *ea America. (Laughter.)
Having edvemeed tMMs aoistiass for all Irish railwate,
he trintall be dew* not be deemed inconsistent in giving
his supple to the mom PPM. He looked upon it as the
small CO/ of dm wedge, sad be Wined that a little the.
was ma that was naesseary to amble them to drive Blow.
He meld oak heaver, help ebeerving, that the her mil-
lions whisk he hal pep seed to armee the yew tordallve
Wear. end ea geed -am weeM ity,have beer heir do
sr *Sol hr mild aa the popoillsad lb. posamsat
If his means boi beat aispiallbros mad. age, usher he
a minks a matb, *fish had been lira sa•
=il in useless weeks, would have been saved, and ag
of Ireland veil ve equbeneted by the sato
arispm%trisc Wks& it wee hasaid the Beak offi Begland shwa
have put en the .mew eammr—ldir holism so in Ismifirg
last, at whati%re Rainsiafellklls aro wadi (ll*4
hear.) Re la vat eastalis lair to imps th.lsab
of thst the assioat of the leak had bow
iallairmal by a * tho goy small& To say *i
*in was ago ssearity to Nab Inieept in the Bank Charter