The Express.
London, England, 1848-07-22 00:00:00

THE EXPRESS, SATURDAY ETENING, JULY 22, 1848.

2
too), the table earl at Unbend of the government in Ireland
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. would soy he was sure, be suspected of not giving effect to
----- those powerspowers which were more usefully employed
HOUSE OF LORDL—FEIDer, JULY 21. than the ante earl opposite seemed disposed to think for
when be said they had not been so effectual in penning the
The Loan Canttromma took his seat at 6 o'clock.
passed= of arms, he must not forgot that the power exer-
SECOND RRAOINOB. punter Customs. Water. and
Ilum amendment; Hahne and reek* nod; nirkenuese peek 030. cased led to the abandonment of the open use of
saimunits Dressler of powers to now enaminione ego:dater. arms, which bad been productive of the pent effect.
""Pteenta with the Drown. and anaandflod of sem, ho. 2) i woe- The noble earl (Clarendon) attached the greatest import-
s:ester Turnpike Trams; Mils. nos to the act to which ne referred. lie (the Marqtis of
THIRD liYAolBoB.—Truro Tumel___,ha 1f00d0,..; T",„_,,"" and,,.........P"th Landedowne) knew be had abstained as lone as he possi ily
IltsliVAl lusmdcol_utsolioNi : Dood""" ATbn"" "L":r6LX"---i ,pc could Irem applying it to the greet cities in Ireland, and par-
kin. tl Du); Great Northers Railway 3sle of Azhasoe e+ end to nubile. (Hear.) He also knee that hi. noble
arch Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. 2); Rills. "" - .
Mend thought that Sete time had new come when the act
PUBLIC BUSLMRSo.
NECOND READlNO.—Cnsollilated Fund BM. must be strictly enforced, and it would be with all that vigi.
COullelTTEßA—Truetere Relief (Ireland) ; Emboli/0 of Feeleelat- non and sagacity which characterised his noble friend.
Oral ['orange between her Majesty and the Earl of teicestiAmetto. Other act. of parliament applicable to the present emir-
ePOßTe.--AdmintstrAtion of Justice (Nos. I and ej ; gent y
_had been revived by the government of Ireland, one
of he from Vexatious Actions; lens mar. of which against training had already been brought into
TIDRD REANNOtt—uegistering sloths, Be. (Ocotlend):
"or (Swatimill ; Appeals on Civil &Os (Datido ; BMA operation with very good effects, and as it was about to ex-
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL. pire, the government would call upon the legislature to renew
A during the present session. He could not agree with the
This bill was read a second time.
0/I the modem of the Marquis cf LANSDOWNE the stand. noble earl in tninking, that the trial. by Lary wee so ine.ffeciertiele
tag orders were @emended, the committee was negatived, in Ireland as he had represented it to —more particularly
and the bill was reed a third time and passed. in or r that when he recollected the courage and honesty with which the
jurors empanelled during the recent trials for murder had
it might receive oho royal went to-morrow (this day).
STATE OF IRELAND. discharged the functions that devolved on them. 'I be con-
The Elul of GLENGALL said it was his intention to have duct of these jurors entitled them to melee the thanks
proposed a motion which he had on the paper. that day ;but but of their country,
upenond
to it
.wtas.t
ttziey jus
cases attictimr
In consequence of a notice which had Wen gtven by a noble those who were ailed
lord in another place be begged to ask the noble marquis sick, to state that not a single witness shrank. from giving
th fulmaunet, an thus aiding the
.d caubse
opposite if it was true that it ws the intention of the govern his evidencenin a tru
dint to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in Irelond ?If it annum. e entirely coincidedin e opinion tepee. y
was so it would prevent him Dom entering into details the noble earl, that the clubs exercised a power of intimida- ,
upon the question of which he had given notice. Ile was Sion in Ireland over all classes, high and low, rich and poor ;
QUI en prepared to go on with his motion ; but if it was the and notices were universally sread abroad by. these associa.
intention of the government to move the suspension of the none that they considered all who did not join them, and
Habeas Corpus Act to-morrow he should not proceed with act in concert with them, to be their enemies, thus abusing
that motion, because he was sure that nothing but the sus- what they termed liberty, and rendering that term more
pension of the Habeas Corpus Act would remedy the frightful hateful than the worst despotism of an absolute governmert.
condit;on of Ireland ; and that was, in fact, the object of his Wu not this a state of things that ought tribe grappled with
motion. by the government ? (Hear, hear.) Did it not moll for the
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE male some observations exercise of all the powers of government? (Hear, hear.)
which. were very indistinetly heard in the gallery, but he And he would say that his noble friend at the head of the
was understood to say that it was the intention of the go- ministry was prepared to use those powers, supported as he
vernment to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act. hoped he would be by both houses of parliament. (Hear,
The Earl of OLENGALL—Is it the wish of your lord- hear.) He knew it bad been said, why did not the govern-
ship, then, that I should ponied ? meet wait? Why do to-day what might be put off till to-
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE intimated his assent. morrow ?In answer to these objections he could only
The Earl of GLENGALL then proceeded to gay, that, express his belief that they bad arrived at a state
considering the frightful condition in which the well-aftected of things, when any loss of time would be •
people of Inlaid weep laced by the existing state of thinp certain loss of power. Men.) If the power of the goeern-
n that country, he had felt A his duty to lay on their lord. went were now exerted, so far from tendir g to a loos ot hie
ships' table a notice of the followieg motion :move or an impairment of liberty, the very reverse would be the
for copies of reports from the etipendiary magistrates, con- effect of prompt measures. (Hear.) Under these cis cum-
stabulary officers and police, respecting the formation of stances the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had informed the
clubs in Ireland since the let of March, Dia." That moon government that the time had arrived when it was
he begged leave now to make. It was well known that Lamle- necessary to arm him with the power of detaining
lions had existed in Ireland subversive of law and order. ell persons suspected of treasonable or seditious inten.
These societies, or clubs, advocating a remit to physical riots or opinions. He (the Marquis of Lanolowne)
force, to obtain political rights, had been established m all thought that this was • power very just y called
the large towns in the south of Ireland, and in for by his noble friend, because the exercise of it would
many of the smaller ones. The object of these strike at the leaders of the insurrectionsry parties in Ireland
clubs was to organise with a view to subvert the authority of (Hear.) The condition of the population of that country
the Queen. Many of such clubs existed in Dublin, and un- ought to be taken into consideration. They had strong
doubtedly it was their intention to rise and take that city. tendencies to commit onuses. They wen marked Tray
They had armed themselves and were trained to the use of incapacity, to judge correctly ot their own condition. e
arms; and such had been 'the condition of Dublin for two were deprived of the advantages of having capital emrloyed
months. lie believed that all persons well affected had the amongst them. and when in addition to all these character-
moot unbounded confidence in the LoretLielittnallt, who iltiC3 he found that they had recently suffered severely under
tied acted with tyre[ t wisdom and determination ; but his a dispensation of providence which had inflicted the horrors
powers were not sufficient for the emergency. When the of famine upon them, he felt that there weft some
clubs in Dublin found that the preparations which were excuses for the population being excited into manifestations of
made there to repress rebellion were too great for them, they sedition, and led away by their teachers and orators. But as
set about organisms the country, and in that they had sec • for these leaders and teachers, who knew the falsity of the
°ceded, he regretted to say, to a great extent, and societies statements which they uttered, and who had taken advan
were consequently formed, which openly said that they in. tag of the sufferings caned by famine to turn the minds of
tended to overturn the power of the government. Moreover, the people against the government, he felt that for each
they intended to effect • *anal as well as a political revolu- leaders no pity ought or could be enter.ained, and it was
tiou. They said, in • document which he held in his hand, against them that the whole power of the government and
that it was their determination to root out the Irish land- of the parliament would be fairly and justly levelled. (Hear.)
lords—to eradicate them, root and brooch, out of the ishind. He was, therefore, of opinion that the Lord Lieutenant of
The extermination of Irish lmudlords, it was said, should Ireland was justified in making the demand which he had
be the first watchword of the council of 300 ; and the done, end he trusted the parliament would manifest no other
English garrison, as it wee called. of 800; and who were feeling on the subject than that they trusted the power so
they ? lVhy the Irish landlord,. And it was sa that to asked for in sate hands—(hen)—and, also, that his noble
destroy them was one of their chief objects. It was so stated friend, having only asked for it at the last moment, was all
in • document called a proclamation, and it was said that the more likely to exercise it prudenLy and witt, modera-
ouch would be the war-cry of the people. lie need not go tion. For the reasons, therefore, that he had noted, he
into the details of speeches which their lordships no doubt hoped the noble earl would withdraw his motion, as the pro-
bed seen in the public print, to prove the state of feeling in duction of the correspondence would only lead to bau re-
Ireland; but he might say that the leaders advocated a re- suite, and could do no good Before he sat down, he must 1,
sort to pikes and other weapon. The people were alto ad- state
is the authority ot his noble friend (the Earl of Cl
to dip hoop in turpentine, and throw them over the don)that,elthouah there were individual instances to the con-
necks of the military. In various parts of the country mul- trill's', the conduct of the great portion of the Roman
titudes of people had gathered in militaty array, and, not catholic priesthood is Ireland had been most meritorious—
satisfiel with organising at home, they were endeavouring (hear)--and they tad exerted themselves most effectually
to organise abroad. In America they were raising subecrip- in opposing the progress of sedition and inflammation—
Cons to aid the Irish in their contemplated rebellion, and in (hear, hear)—and he might add, that many eases might be
France—in Pane—there existed an " Irish national corn. cited where they had made effectual exhortations to theii
mines," which had issued a proclamation calling on the flocks to maintain peace and to prevent the contagion of
people to aid the Irish in throwing ed. the yoke of England. Unison and discontent from reaching them. And these lads
This proclamation said that the people of Ireland were pre. his noble friend was most anxious should be publicly stated
paring —were organiaing—and before the autumn the and a, iversally known.
liiijlish yoke would are got rid of. It then ap- LordBROUGUAM said that he was one of cot a few merit-
ed to the French people, whether they would ben of Oben lordships house who were disposed to ask the
;the ally of Eogland or Ireland—of democracy government why they had wetted so long. Now, however,
or •ristocracy ? A multitude of emissaries were foam time to after the delay o( fix months., they were prepared to act, and
time passing between the two countries; and there was too he cordially approved of their intention, only hoping it was
much 111•6011 to believe that some persons in France, who not adopted too late to be effectual, The only way to avoid
were connected with the late insurrection, were also aeso- the unhappy state of things observable in a neighbouring
Mated with the movement in Ireland. It wasin consequence country was to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland,
of this that 71 peers and landed proprietors in Ireland had or, in other words, to give the authorities there the power to
thought it neenesary to sign a
memorial to the Home Seam imprison persons without having any sworn information
tary, calling on him to put down these clubs and this system spinet them. By so doing the government would have the
of orminisation ; but the reply of the Home Secretary was power of imprisoning the leaders of the sedition, and thus
not satisfectory, and that reason had induced him to bring those would be taken away in whose absence the insurrection
forward this motion. Up to this moment what had the could not peoceed. He would call their lordships' attention
government done ? They had proclaimed several districts, to • statement made by. a penman of high legal authority,
and had
hat, three individuals, and one of them cairn. who gave it as his opinion that the suspension of the
sally. What, however, had been or would be the effect? Habeas Corpus Act was a remedy for the evil, inasmuch as
Proclaiming under the new coercion act was not the estab• it tended to cure and not to irritate. He had been told that
lishment of martial law, but merely the taking away arms he was at liberty to cite the name of the late Mr. O'Connell
from persons unfit to hold them, The proclaiming of dn. as that of the authority to whom be referred, but he had
trine would be unavailable. The people had arms, and they declined to do so unless the conversation wherein he made
would keep them. The government had tried prcaecutions the assertion was committed to paper by the very respectable
under the ordinary. law, and one under the Crown and person who had held it with him. This had been done, and
Government Security Act. In two of those cases„ he would now proceed to read the record of the converse•
although they were as clear as possible, they could not tin. The noble lord then read • statement, to the effect
obtain verdicts. In one case, however, they had obtained a that about three weeks beforeore Sir Robert Peel's coercion
verdict, and had carried the law into effect with prompti- bill of 1546 was brought late Daniel O'Connell deli-
tude. But what had been the effect of the Fe (mention of berately stated to the writer, in the pretence of a learned
Mitchel ? It had made the people doubly furious ; and as doctor and another gentleman, who was since a member of
there were other parties to be tried on the Bth of Augun the parliament, whose names he (Lord Broughsm) would, logo-
people were doubt, vigilant, their object being to raise • re- titer with his informant's, communicate to the noble marquis,
bAlion before the Bth of August, to prevent others from that in his opinionthe true remedy and the sate and constitu.
being sent oat of the country. It was originally intended tonal course to pursue in regard to Limerick was to resort
not to rise until after the harvest i lent that
thermntention was to what was commonly called the suspension of the Habeas
altered, he believed, now. And them:awe n point— Corpus Act, as that would cure and not irritate. And Mr.
would the juries do their duty ? If a Koran catholic gen- D. O'Connell also then stated that if Sir R. Peel made out
tleman acted against agitation, he was immediately singled a case, he would support him in suspending the Habeas
out and termed "an Orange catholic," and when a person Corpus Act, provided he (Sir R. Peel) produced at the same
received that appellation, the sooner Le made his will the time to the house those measure* of relief and justice to Ire-
better. He had received most frightful accounts from many land which he (Sir R. Peel) had so often promised to give to
gentlemen in districts which had n A been proclaimed. the people of that country. In that case, Mr. D. O'Connell
Tfieir own tenants they said had come to them and stated said he would give his hearty support to the suspension of
that the deny of insurrection was tom ng on the Bth of Aug. ; the Haien Corpus, but he would oppose any curfew bit, as
and they were obliged to join theta traitors—they dared not that would irritate and not cure the malady. The writer
resist them. Tumultuous assemblages and most seditious proceeded to state that, with Mr. D. O'Connell's permission,
acts were committed in proclaimed districts, end the parties be had put this conversation on paper and shown i : to Sir
who committed those outrages in some instances had but just R. Peel and Lord J. Russell. Such testimony, continued the
been charged with misdemeanors. Mr. Doheny ought to noble lord (Broughambwas of no slight value in support ot the
have been prosecuted under the Crown and Governmeot measure proposed by the Lord-Lientenant of Ireland and
Security Act. The noble lord here referred to the late proceed- her Majesty's government.
inn at Carrick-on-Suir, and said that, under the-c circom- Lord STANLEY said, that however great the alarm
Millennia* felt confidentpioclametions were notsufficient ; and might be which was created by the knowledge that the
be was glad government bad determined to act with energy government was going to resort to strong measures, there
and determination. (leer.) The English peope would, he was no right-thinking man in the country who would not
was sure, go with the government, and aid them in main- cordially rejoice at hearing the announcement made by her
tabling law and order. (Hear, hear.) He had intended to Mmesty's ministers, and if there was any drawback to that
say much more on the subject, but as the government had feeling of satisfactioa it was not on account of the prompt.
determined to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, he would nem of the determination of the government, but rather be-
congratulate the people of Ireland and England on the fact, muse of the delay that bad taken place. The gauntlet had,
and content himself by at once moving for the papers of however, been thrown down, and now the question was,
which he had given notice. (Cheers.) shall the law or the mob have the upper hand. Every hour
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had not sought to pre- that this question was in doubt added to the numbers and
vent the noble earl from giving notice of his motion. He the strength of the disaffected ; and even men who
had been reported to have stated on a former night that dii- would rally round the standard of the government, did
cession on the state of Ireland would be attended with public they know where to find it, were now driven into the
inconvenience; but, on the contrary, he had said that maks of the disaffected—first, by rem on of being left to
whether he concurred in the motion of the noble earl or not themselvee ; and next, because they dared not refuse to make
he thought it • desirable opportunity for discussing the sub- common cause with their countrymen. He would, how-
joct and bearing the opinion. of the house upon it, ever, not now stop to ask why ma•ters had been suffered to
He considered, however, that it might be de, go the length they had done. lie was only too glad to 1110
nimble for the noble earl to withdraw his motion, that the government was determined to put down the tedd.
although be concurred in the propriety of the attention of lion and treasonable practices
ent of the
ters would Insh leaders with
the
•
the house being called to the subject ; and he was not pre- strong hand. He wa cond minis have
pared to deny the statement which had been triode in any fullest support in that house, and also in the other, however
particular, on the contrary, the noble earl had founded it on inconsistent with constitutional law the remedy propose&
facts which were known to all the world ; and it was conduct might be. He hoped, mnreover, that the details of the
which the parties themselves had in no degree attempted to measure would be as concise as possible, and that govern-
dissemble. It was unnecessary to state in what degree in an ment would ask for a short ano summary power, so that
ordinary state of society, clubs might be more or less per- there would be no occasion for any lengthened .ielay in the
witted, and when they were dangerous and when they were progress of the bill through parliament. lie was satisfied
not. It would be ditficat to take the precise gauge and di- that if the government was determined to restore girder and
mensions of clubs, and point out under what circumstances the power of the crown in Ireland, even though their measure
they might be permitted ; hut, at this moment, the clubs re- were not within the pale of constitutional law, they would
ferred to had reached • pitch in Ireland which he would not only have the support of those who habitually voted
affirm to he, oa the authority of the Lord Lieutenant, and with them, but also of every member of their lordship'
on the authority of all the servants of the crown, subversive house.
of public peace and the prelude to civil war. (Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he hoped the
'Their proceedings were before the public. 'link secret proposed measure would be passed into a law as speedily as
movemi nts be could not attempt to discover, but when possible, and if, as the noble lord opposite proposed, the
he looked at the sy.tematie formation of these clubs, and at house would agree to suspend its standing orders, that course
their increase, and when he regarded their language, and would meet with the sanction of the government. It would
looked at their objects—when he ale observed the military be satisfactory ti his noble friend (Lord Brougham) to recall
array by which they sought to attain those objects—they had to his recollection that, should there be any unfortunate
all 0e elements of insurrection before them, and they only delay in pasting the proposed bill, the effect of which should
wanted an absolute declaration of war. (Hear.) When he be to hurry. the unfortunate people who were now en-
gem the military array directed by a person who went to cited hy their leaders into a state of insurrection, there
Paris with the avowed object of seeing the clube there, and, did extst a statute of the Irish parliament by wnicti,
having been rejected hy the government of that country, should there be any outbreak or other manifestation
went about knocking from doer to door to seek out the ene- of the commencement of a rebellion, the Lord-Lieutenant of
min of his own country—(hear, hear)—and when, return- Ireland was authorised to seize and detain every individual
ing from that minion, he was placed at the head of these whop should be suspected of seditious or treasonable practices
(lub' in Ireland, there could he no doubt of the object. or oinions ; and be took that opportunity of stating that him
(Hear.) When that person wen engaged afterwards, not in a noble friend the Earl cf Clarendon was fully prepared to act
conflict with the government, but with his own imuntrymen, at once upon that statute.
and talked of abandoning what he chow to term " his public Lord BROUGHAM said that it was a charity to the
life"—when he spin returned to r• public life to organise people of Ireland to remind them of the act in question, and
this einem, and when he passed in review at enceinte° to apprise them of the determination of the Lord-Lientenent
intervals persons who, if not possessed of arms, had to act upon it, which he hoped the Berl of Clarendon would
beeninetructed in training and told that it was nothing, unless fearless' do.
they had arms to use, when he observed all this was there The Earl of GLENGALL then connoted to withdraw
any difficulty in seeing the object in view ? (Hear.) He, his motion. He stated it to be his opinion that the govern.
therefore, sold that the notoriety of the case was made ment ought to call on the lord-lieutenants of Irish counties to
oat, and when the noble lord made his motion for copies of repair to their respective counties.
the reports from stipendiary magistrates, he did not object to rhe motion was then by leave withdrawn.
%bat he wished him to substitute " extracts of despatches," PROTECTION OFACT JUSTICES FROM VEXATIOUS
because they inclatled a great deal of matter which it would lONS BILL.
not be fit tolay before the public—(hen, hear),—and which On the motion that the report on this bill be received,
would weaken the ease and defeat the object of the govern. The Earl of
to I GLEN
GALL asked whether this bill would
meat it published. With regard to the powers which ex- be extended reland ?

tended to.

Lord CAMPBELL said be thought that seek sight pro-
bably bs the Gass at Kens future period.
Toil report was then received.
Their lordships adjourned at twenty nsinuto to 8.

of the crown, parliament should be idtting, or, if not sit-
of 30 days after its next meeting. But this was
the
In of inhabiters themselves, who, though parliament
met In November, and osatinued sitting mere than 30 days,
neglected to lay the act of the colonial legislature, which had
ream the royal mead in August, 1847, on the table of the
house until April, 1848. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, the
colony of Jamaica, acting in dm, spirit of the
as of the imperial legislature, bad passed an act
admitting foreign refined sugar at a duty of 20s.
m ewe Trintdad admitted sugar, refined or not re-
fined, at 55. the cwt., and St. Lucia at 16s. Bd. Then,
he contended that, under the present resolutions, no sugar
coming from those colonies could be admitted into this
country consistently with truth at the 13s. duty. (Hear,
hoar.) Then as to the injury to the British refiner by the
adraimaion of refined sugar from Holland, it was complained '
by the re liners that this mesaure of relief bad already raised
the price of Dutch refined sugar from 2s. to 3s. a cwt., and I
reduced the value of British refined sugar to the same
amount. Witco it was known on Monday last that Dutch
refined sugar could ;ems into w
this country, a complete law
cation came over the sugar trade here. Let the hosiers OW
eider what was the position of the British refiner. A large
quaatity of sugar had come in from Java and eleswhere,
which, owing to the state of the law, could not be refined
here, but might be taken to Amsterdam, thin refined, and
then brought here with the Dutch bounty on it to co
chance hmpead
te
against the sugar refined in this country. What
the British refiner under such circumstances
hear.) lie proposed to submit an amendment in committee
which, as it did not go to impose • higher rate of duty,
the Speaker allowed might be put, though it wits a
nice point ; hut he would submit it to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, whether the best course would not be to
withdraw the present bill altogether, and bring in new
resolutions, upon which a proper bill might be founded ; toe
no one could believe trial government knew s
hoe de y were
doing when they framed the resolutions the se had
passed, anS by whi ili 40 serious a blow was inflicted an dee
British refiner (hear, hear); tor if they did, what emir
could they make foe keeping the trade and the country fa
ignorance of the intention to make so great a change in elso
law t But if ministers etfused to take that course, he was
meowed to unmask a new battery against them (hear(
hear, d laughter); he was ready to open le new budget of
ministerial blunders in respect to this measure. (Hear, hear.)
He was in a position to prove that they had made as many
as twenty.tbree blunders in their cadinhition of their scale of
duties. (Cheers and laughter.) To make himself intelligible,
he must ezplain that all the uifferent rates of duty wets
based on the rides of duty leviable on muscovado- muses
lode sugar, to use a railway expression, was the datum line
of the calculation. Molasses were taken as at 371 Per line
-
of the value of muscovado,i white elayed at one-sixth,
high refined at one-third, and double r,fined at one half
higher than muscovado. With the first schedule, lie had
no fault to find ; but when he came to the second, that
was, the duties to be levied on the sugar of other British
possessions than those where foreign sugar was not excluded,
ne found that the amount fixed by the scale was It. 35. 4d.
whereas it ought to be 11. 3s. 7d. In the meet
item, single refined sugar, in the first four columns
there was no mistake, he supposed, because those
columns referred to old duties, and required no
calculation, but in the fifth column, the duty for
the year 1852.3, the amount stated was 155., while the
proper amount, takin muscovado as the basis of value,
would be 155. 42.,
he next year, 853-4, the duty in
the schedule was set gown at les 2d., instead of 145. Bd.
Then en white clayed sugar for 18,52-3, the duty stated in the
schedule was 13s. 3d., instead of 13s. sd. ; for 1853-4 it was
12a. 6d., while it ought to be 12s. 10d. In the duty re mo-
lasses in the first column for 1848-9, that which was charged
ought to be 6s. for the next year it was
Si. 3d. instead of 5.. bd. • for the third it was 4s. 9d. instead
of 41. 114 d. ; for the fourth 4,4 d. instead of 4s. 6d.; fur the
fifth, 41. Id., instead of 40 4d. ; for the sixth, 1853.4, it was
31. 11d., instead of 4a. lid. (Hear, hear.) On double re-
lined sugar in the third schedule the duty set down for the
year 1862-3 was 195., it ought to be 19e. 6d. ; for 1863-4 it
was 17s. while it ought to be 18s. (Hear, hear.) He was
surprised ministers could not obtain the assistance of persons
sufficiently conversant with common arithmetic to calculate
these duties with !Something like correctnem. (A laugh.) In
the same schedule and for the same year the outy stood for
1b52-3 at 16s. bd., it should be 17s. ed. ; for 1852-3 it 4848
155. 3d., while it ought to stand at 165. Here was a diffe-
rence of Hid. against the British refiner. Then in the arti-
cle of white clayed, for 18,52.3 the amount set down was
14s. 92-, instead of 150. 2d.; and for 1853-1 it was 13s. 2d.,
instead of 14s. The same irregularities existed in the hon.
member for Westbury's pet scale-the " brown clayed ;"
and
gre it, as had been sometimes said, it was the nature
gen
of stnem to be irregular, the honourable -
tleman had certainly succeeded. (Hear, and a laugh.)
6s. I Id. ought to have been 6s. 4d., 55.4 d. eught to have been
ss. 94., 4s I Id. ought to have been ss. 3d., 4s. 6d. ought to
have been 4s I Id., and, in the szth column, 4s. Id. ought to
have been 4s. 7d. Now, that was the sum total, making 23
errors-(bear, heart and he would ask whether it was too
much to expect of the government to throw out aeogether
this horribly. blunderior piece of legislation, and frame fresh
resolutions in accordance with the intentions of parliament
and the legislature ? (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, as
it would be extremely difficult to go through an the various
points touched on by the noble lord, he would answer them
one by one as they arose in committee.
Mr. GOULBURN thought that, before they went into
committee, it was absolutely necessary to know the plan the
government meant to primose, because, if it should involve
an Increase of the existing duties it might be necessary to go
int* a committee of the whole house.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
map alterations intended were • reduction of certain
duties respecting refined colonial Bulger, and the correction
of some inaccuracies respecting foreign refined sugar.
Mr. DISRAELI considered the statement of
the noble
lord exceedingly clear. le;showed such an agglomeration of
MOT in this bill, that he really did not think they should go
into committee without evincing their want of confidence in
an administration that could produce a measure so saturated
with mistakes. (A laugh.)
Mr. CARDWELL also pressed forgexplanation, on the
ground that if they were thwatisfied with the hon. gentle-
man's explanations in committee they would have no
remedy.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the whole subject was matter of the purest detail, and that
if his expliviitions were not satisfactory it would be compe-
tent for the hon. gentleman to move that the chairman re.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—PRIMAT, JOLT 21.
The Braissi tookß IV e chair at I o'clock.
P thATE BUBINEB4.
'REOOND READlNoB.—Jeascies state;E Marlborough pottage
Chapel; RUM. rustic BusiNEss.
COMMITIT.E.—Sudar Duties MIL.
NOTICE OF NOT oN._Cis,.sr PT PRACTICZA AT ELECTI,ITA BILL.—
In committee on t
iehMU, Mr. ANSTEY to move that the City of Lou-
don be included in t schedule.
NEW MEMBER.
for
LOrd GROSVEN took the oaths and his seat as member
the cit y of Chest OR
er.
NORTH CHESHIRE ELECTION.
The following members were sworn as • committee to try
the merits of the petition against the late return for North
Cheshire, Lord Courtenay, Sir D. L. Evans, Mr. Mangles,
Mr. S. Herbert, and Col. Bolder°.
STATE OF IRELAND.
Lord J. RUSSELL--I rise to give notice that I propose,
at 12 o'clock to-morrow, to ask fur leave to bring in a bill to
empower the Laid Lieutenant, or other chief governor or
governors of Ireland, to apprehend and detain, until the Ist
March, 1849, such person or persons as he or they shall sus-
pect of conspiring against her Majesty's person or
government.
IRISH POOR LAW.
Major BLACKALL asked whether the committee
appointed to inquire into the working of the Irish poor law
had as yet made any report.
Sir 0. GREY understood that the inquiry was finished, as
far as the north of Ireland was concerned ; and that the
committee was about to comments* with the south.
ENGLISH WORKMEN IN FRANCE.
Lord DRIJ hILAN RIO said he had sometime since asked
whether any steps would be taken to obtain the deposits of
English workmen from the French savings banks. He
wished to know whether any correspondence had been re-
ceived from Lord Normanby on the subject, and, if so
whether it would be laid on the table. H.e had been told
that a correspondence between Lord Normanby and the
French government had been commenced, and would
soon be concluded. lie wished to know now whether any
direct appeal would be made to the French government so
as to have the matter settled in a manner at once honour-
able to the French nation and beneficial to the English

workmen 1
84 0. GREY said that if the noble lord bed given notice
of his question, his noble friend at the head of the foreign
department would have been present to answer. Various
communications hail been made to the successive govern-
ments of France, but ho was ant in • position to state that
the negotiations had been brought to a satisfactory conclu-
aion. All be could say at present was that the French
government had promised that the matter should be at-

THE COLONIES.
Mr. HUME salted. pursuant to notice, whether the colo-
nists sat the Cape, at Van Diemen" Land, and in other colo-
nies were to have any representative assembly granted to
them, and for which they bad frequently petitioned ?
Mr. HAWES said that as regarded the Australian colo•
nies, a bill had been prepared for the purpose of being sub-
milled to the colonists for their opinion. With respect to
the Cape, his hon. friend was aware that some time since a
memorial had b. en sent from that colony to the Colonial-
efficsi, which was looked urns with favour by Lord Stanley;
but subsequently the colony had been involved in a stateou of of
war, which rendered it impossible to consider any questi
the sort. However, it appeared from the last despatch of Sie
H. Smith that peace had been re-established, and that that
officer would now turn hi. attention to the establishment of
a representative form ot government. Respecting Van Die-'
men's Land he had no answer to give at present.
Mr. V. SMITH wished to know when certain despatches]
of Sir H. l'ottinger, referring to the affairs of the Cape of '
Good Hope, would be laid on the table. They had been, as
he had understood, referred to the Audit Board. He wished
to know when Use house would be in possession of the Audit
Board's observations ?
Mr. HAWES said that the correspondence was very
voluminous. lie could i•ot fix a time for their pro luction.
BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER'S ESTATE.
Mr. HOESMAN said that a sale was about to take place
of the Bishop of Gloucester's estate, and there was an im-
pression abroad that such sale was to be carried out in a
m inner inconsistent with the order of the ecclesiastical com-
missioners. tie wished to know whether the noble lord at
the head of the government would postpone the gasetting of
the sale until inquiry had ;ACII made
Lord J. RUSSELL said it would be necessary to make
inquiry before he answered the hon. member's question.
Mr. 0. DENISON, as a member of the ecclesiastical corn •
mission, was anxious to know whether he was to understand
that the sale was to be suspended until inquiry had been
made ?
Lord J. RUSSELL could only repeat the answer he had
given to the bon. member for Cockermouth.
DUTIES ON FOREIGN CORN.
Mr. STUART wished to know whether government had
taken the opinion of the law officers of the crown on the
question of the duties levied on foreign corn imported s
the Ist March for home consumption ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had given no opinion on
the aulject.
METROPOLITAN POLICE.
Sir D. L. EVANS asked whether it was proposed to make
any augmentation of the rates for the support of the metro-
politan police t
Sir G. GREY said he did not believe there would be any
votes in the estimates for the support of the police. There
would be no augmentation, but certainly no reduction. Ile
would give a more detailed answer on a future day.
HIGHWAYS BILL.
Sir J. DUCKWORTH asked whether it was intended to
proceed with the Highways Bill this session ?
Sir G. GREY—It WAS not
POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE UNITED
8 f AT ES.
Mr. HUME, referring to the information received by albs
last American mail, that the United States had passed a as.
taliatory an on us, imposing a higher duty on letters ewe-
veyed in British Teasels, inquired whether the correspondeess
on the subject would be produeed ?
Lord PALMERSTON would examine the papers, sod
give an answer on Monday.
Mr. HUME wished to know if any negotiations were mo'
going on between the United States and this country on the
subject of postal arranoements
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied Met
negociations had been kr some time and were still =
between the British government and the American
on the subject.
Mr. M. GIBSON understood the complaint of the Untied
States to be that • duty was levied here on letters breedht
li
by American packets. This was naturally objected to os
the ground that no service was performed to justify the
charge. He trcsted government would consider that as the
establishment of the American line of packets was of great
advantage to the trade of this country, and that SS the more
frequent the postal communication the better, anything
which should tend to prevent that communication, either b
by
means of the American or British packets, could not but
injurious to British interests.
THE REVOLUTIONS IN ITALY AND FRANCE.
Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to Mr. Ansley, maid he
had no objection to the production 'AM* correspondence as to '
the claims of Mr. Milo on the French Government, but has
ing examined the papers on the euhject of then ansfound in
actions
which had tak n place in the Italian states,
them so much of a confidential nature, that in the present
state of affairs in that part of the world, and seeing that
her Majesty's government might be culled upon to interfere
by negotiations as mediator in the transactions now going on,
he found th it it would not be to the advantage of her Ma-
jesty's service or the interests of those countries to lay those
papers on the table of the house. (Hear.)
MR. O'CONNOR'S LAND COMPANY.
Mr. O'CONNOR, in consequence of the aspersion,
which had been cast on his character in reference to his con-
nexion with this company, wished to state that, after the
fullest investigation by the committee. the accountant had
found that, independent of his personal and travelling ex-
penses incurred in respect to the company, there was a sum
of 3,2001. due to him. (Cries of " Order, or ier.") If he
was Interrupted he should move the adjournment of the
house. (Oh, ano cries of " Order.")
The SPEAKER said it was not competent for the hon.
member to refer to the proceedings of a committee which had
not yet made its report.
Mr. O'CONNOR had to complain that in all other eases
the report of the committee was presented on the day It
was
made. (Order.) What he wished to ray was, that the com-
mittee had that day come to an unanimous resolution, after
the fullest investigation, absolving him from the charges
which had ,een brought against him.
SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
The order of the day for the committee on this bill having
been read,
Lord G. I3ENTINCK proceeded to contend against the
position taken on the previous evening by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer and the hon. member for Westbury, that the
British Possessions Act of 1846 over-rode all acts of the colo-
, nial legislature in reference to duties imposed on imports.
Whether he looked at the acts of the imperial legislature,
the 9 & 10 Viet., cap 94, or the speech., of the supporters
and opponents of that measure, it was plain that it was in-
tended to confer a power on the colonies to repeal prohibitory
duties, or to remove duties imposed by the imperial legisla-
ture for the purposes of protection. Mr. Goulburn, in the
discussion on the act of 1846, observed " that they were called
upon by that bill to give up the great imperial principle that
the trade of the colonies should be regula'sd by the mother
country ," and the Chancellor of the Exchequer answered
" that it would be most unjust for the colonies to be exposed
to protection against them while protection in their favour
was taken away. The noble lord (J. Russell) also said
" that haying established free trade as a general principle,
and made certain exceptions in the application of that prit-
ciple for the sake of revenue, we should treat our colonies as
we would wish to be treated ourselves, and not insist on the
maintenance of any protective duty as against the colonies
which they might think unnecessary or injurious to
them. The best course, therefore, was to give our
colonies as much power as possible in respect to
such matters, and to treat them as ourselves"
How could it then be contended that it was never intended
by the act of 1846, to give power to the colonies to remove
any restriction imposed upon their trade for the benefit of
the British refiner ? (Hear, hear.) If the act of 1846 had
not passed, he admitted that the 63rd clause of the British
Possession, Act would have over-ridden any act of the colo-
nial legislature; but the act of 1848 expressly empowered
the colonial legislative authorities, with the consent of her
Majesty in council, to repeal any customs duty, so far as the
mama might affect them. In this case the only informality
was, that the act of the colonial legislature had not been laid
before parliament within 30 days after it received the anent

port progress.
Mr. M. GIBSON controverted the idea of the noble lord
the member for Lynn, that the heading of the colonial scale
of duties was incorn et, and that the importation of foreign
sugar was not prohibited at Jamaica. But that error, if
error it were; must be completely nugatory., because the
colonial act was ruled by the act of the impenal legislature.
If the noble lord bad given a deeper consideration to the
subject he would have found that the heading of these wales
of colonial duties was perfectly accurate.
After a few words from Mr. BERRIES the house went into
committee.
On the let clause being proposed,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the bill was not open so the chsrges of inaccuracy which the
noble lord so lavishly directed against it. As to what
the law was he had never entertaintd the least
doubt ; but the noble lord having on Wednes-
day last stated that the customs had demanded the
payment of a higher rate of duty from parties importing
Jamaica sugar than was legal, be tent to the chairman of
the Board of Customs, and found from him that no such de.
mend bad been made, and that the entry of no sugar bad
been refused. The general wording of the bill before the
house clearly expressed the condition upon which the sugar
of any particular colony was entitled to admission here at
the lowest rate of duty, and that condition was the prohibThe
i-
tion of the import of foreign sugar into that colony.
reason for that was stated in a letter from Mr. Deacon Hume
to the Treasury in 1839, in which be "It is well known
that the object of the prohibition is to prevent these colonies
in which sugar is produced from being made the medium of
a fraudulent transit of foreign sugar, as the produce of those
of
colonies, into this country." Accordingly, when the power
admitting sugar from the East India provinces was conceded,
a distinction was made, and it was contained in the present
bill, as to the rate f duty on sugar from colonies from
which the importation of foreign sugar was not prohibited.
The sugar imported from such colonies was therefore nada
liable to pay a higher rate of duty, because they did not pro-
hibit foreign sugar; consequently the condition on which
the lowest rate of duty was demanded upon sugar imported
from our colonial possessions was that the importation of
foreign sugar into such colonies should be prohibited, and
this was done with the view of preventing foreign sugar
being fraudulently imported here through those colonies.
Now that was the case before the passing of the last British
Possessions Act. In 1839 the question was raised whether
foreign sugar.refined in England was or was not to be con-
sidered as British produce, and the decision of the overn•
ment WAS that it was British produce, and as such admixsible
into the colonies. But lest any misapprehension should arise
upon the subject. in the British Possessions Act of 1845,
which was introduced by the right hon. gentleman oppoeite
(Mr. Gladstone), and which was the existing act, in the pro-
hibition clause there was a special exception of sugar
not being refined in bond in the United King-
dom and it was impossible, therefore, that any
colonial law could affect that prohibition. If the
British possessions Act were repealed, that sugar might
come in ; but it was distinctly provided that the im-
portation of foreign sugar was prohibited into all the West
India islands, and it was necessary that it should be so to
allow them to send their sugar here at the lower rate of

dandy. BARELY referred to the parliamentary papers of 1
1846 to show that foreign sugar. was practically admitted into
all the British West Indies in violation of, and though alleged
to be eicluded by, the British Possessions Act. (Hear, hear.)
That was the real question to consider—which was simply
one of fact.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the question was
rather what was the law. The hon. gentleman quoted re•
turns to show that foreign sugar was imported into Barba
does, Demerara, and other of our West India colonies in
violation of the British Possessions Act, but the fact of that
importation did not prove its legality. The hen. and learned
gentleman having quoted several acts on the subject. con-
tended that any and every colonial act in opposition to the
British Possession Act must be null and void.
Mr. CARDWELL said that the confusion which had oc-
curred on this subject might have beau obviated if the atten-
tion of the parties concerned had been called at the proper
time to the change which had been made in the schedule by
the Jamaica legislature.
Mr. WILSON said that the act did not come into opera-
. lion until the 12th of this month, and as early as the 15th
t warrants were prepared in oonformity with the sat of puha-
, meet, and he dui not think that much interference to the
I trade had taken place.
t Lord G. BENTINCH assured the house that he knew