The Express.
London, England, 1847-07-16 00:00:00

OF LAND IN IRELAND.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he understood there
had been some delay in making advances to the landed pro-
prietors of Ireland, from the sum voted by this Imam for
each purpoae. Ho wished to know what steps the govern-
ment had takes, or was taking, with reference thereto.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the motley for this purpose had been voted long ago ; and be
was aware of no delay, except in one respect, arising from
the misapprehension of the Irish proprietors. The purpose
of these advances was to enable them to improve their own
estates ; bat, in many cases, they had chosen to do nothing,
bat to trait in expectation of a government officer being sent
down to do it for them. This was not at all the intention
of the act. He was aot aware of any cause for delay in the
making of the advances, as soon as the parties applied for
them.
BALL-CARTRIDGE SHOOTING IN IRELAND.
Mr. FRE WEN asked the hon. Secretary for Ireland if he
was aware that large bodies of the peasantry, in the counties
of Westmeath and Cavan, assembled together on Sundays
sad holidays, to practise ball-cartridge shooting ; and if so,
wbsetat the government intended to take any steps to pre.
veal awe proeseilings ?
Mr. LABOUCUERE said he had received no official
information of the practice alluded to. He need hardly say,
is answer to the second question, that it was not the Luton-
gem of gmenienent in the present session to introdace any
aralserollopin a stop to such practices. Thom magistrates
who W imaseal the hon. member of these practices would
ban demo well to have laid any complaints they had to make
beim Mmesecutive government, if they supposed that these
practises portended a breach of the peace ; if any such repro-
mutation woe made the facts would be inquired into, sad
such messuree would be adopted as the government might
think nocessar,
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
Dr. NICHOLL put a question to the right hon. the Home
Secretary, with reference to the operation of a bill recently
introduced in the other house, for defining and is some de-
gees limitiest the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts.
Sir O. GREY said the bill had been introduced for the
removal of certain doubts which had arisen as to the juris-
diction of thews courts; but it would be better to postpone all
consideration of its provisions till the bill itself was under
diem/non.
THE MILITARY KNIGHTS OF WINDSOR.
Mr. B. CABBELL wished to correct a mis-report of his
statement on this subject, which had appeared in the Times
of that morning; but,
The SPEAKER informing him that he could only bring
the case before the house as a breach of privilege on the part
of the publishers of the paper,
The on. lINIMEIER declined to do so.
THE NEW DEAN OF MANCHESTER.

Mr. faiskeii eked whether the Rer. ►lre Bowen,
who had been recently appointed Dean of Manchester, would
be allowed to retain the hying of St. Paul's, Covent-garden ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said if he had bad longer notice
of this question, he might have made inquiry, which would
have enabled him to answer it more fully, but he would state
all be knew. When he informed the Duke of Bedford that
he had recommended to the mown es nominate Mr. Bowers
to the deanery of Manchester—knowing his character, and
the great satisfaction which he had given to the pa-
rishioners of St. Paul's, Covent-garden—the Duke of
Bedford had stated that he thought Mr. Bowers a
very worthy person, but that he greatly regretted the
loss which his parishioners would suffer; his gram
had asked whether It was necessary that he should immedi-
ately fill up his place, or whether be might take a short time
to consider whom he should recommend to the vacant bene-
fice ? (Hear.) He (Lord John) had answered that he did
act believe the urgency so immediate, but that a short
time might be given to select a fit person ; nor did he think
there was anhyaitniiillegal in Mr. Bowers continuing in the
charge of his for a short time. (Hear, hear.) After-
wards, he seen Mr. Ravers, who had spoken of the
duties which would devolve on hie successor in St. Paul's,
Gwent Garden ; so that there was no question he expected
some one to succeed him in that parish. No doubt he
Awn to give up that parish as soon as, or perhaps before,
the Duke of Bedford had recommended some person to be
egpsiWted.
Mr. HINDLEY was rejoiced to hear this statement of
the noble lord. He believed that prejudice and dimatisfee-
ties had been excited in Manchester in consequence of the
report that Mr. Bowen was to retain his benefice in Lon-
des; and this statement would greatly increase the favour
with which he would be received in Manchester. A better
appointment could not have been made. He had known
Mr. Bowers ten or twelve years, and was certain that the
appointment would be satisfactory, net only to the church,
but to the dissenters generally.
DETENTION OF SCOTCH MAILS.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked " why the mails from the po-
pious counties of Perth. Forfar, and Aberdeen, were detained
at the Inverness Post-office sixteen or seventeen hoer daily,
oa their way to the inhabitants in the fishing stations, on
the sea-coast of the large counties of Roes, Sutherland, and
Caithness, where the people were very sparingly employed,
and in great poverty and distress, but which the delays and
bed management of the post-office tended to aggravate."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
very desirable that gentlemea putting notices of questions
on the papa., should not introduce so much extraneous
matter. He would not take exception to this question,
though the statement accompanying it was hardly fair.
With regard to the question itself, the bon. gentleman was
mistaken in supposing that the letters from Perth were de-
tained. It was true that the letters for Forfarshire, Aber-
deenshire, and the places on the eastern coast, were delayed
is their progress northward. The reason was this. These
letters went by a crose.mail, which joined the north mail ;
owing to the acceleration of the north and south malls, from
a further extension of railroads, the east and west mails
Missed them, and were, comequently, detained natal the
next day. He admitted that the parties had just ground of
complaint, but, as soon as the necewary arrangements could
be made, the delay would be remedied.
TRUSTEESHIP OF THE BRITISH MUSEUM.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE complained of the imperfection of
some returns recently made to the house on his motion, re-
specting the trustees of the British Museum. The name, of
certain parties recently appointed trustees were omitted;
bat he hoped that the inquiry now going on into the man-
agement of that institution would throw some light on the
subject.
Sir It. INGLIS said he understood the objection to be that
the names of the three principal trustees were omitted; but
the law presumed them to be generally known, their ap-
latent being made by the Lord Chancellor and other
high officers of state.
r. HUME said the return was evidently imperfect, as
the names were required to be stated.
After a few words from Lord J. RU156111.7., which were not
heard in the gallery, the house went into committee on the
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.
Mr. WORTLRY regretted that the right hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had felt himself bound to withdraw
hie proposition respecting the advance to the Argyle Canal
Company. He hoped that in the next Session the right hon.
earthman would be in a condition to carry that proposal
into effect.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
reason why he had withdrawn it was this as it required to
be carried forward as something between a private and a
public bill, it was impossible to carry it through the honer
before the probable end of the nation. As to the merits of
the proposition, he entertained still the same opinion that it
would be most beneficial to the public, and that it was in no
respect deserving of the character given it by its opponents.
Mr. R. DENISON wished to call the attention of the
boon to the disposition of the funds, amounting to two
millions, which had been voted for the purpose of improving
waste lands in England and Scotland, as a relief to say diffi-
culties in which landlords might be involved by the repeal
of the corn laws. It had occurred, in the disposal of this
fund, that 1,600,0001. had already been devoted to Scotland,
so that only 400,0001. remained to be disposed of in England.'
The bill then went through committee, the report to be
received this day.
TREATY WITH THE NETHERLANDS.
Lord G. BENTINCK said he had given notice to call the
attention of the house to an alleged infraction by the Dutch
government of the treaty of commerce contracted in 1824,
between Great Britain and the Netherlands, relating to the
trade and commerce of the eastern territories of both coun-
tries. It was admitted that the treaty of 1824 with the
Netherlands had been seriously infringed by the treaty be-
tween Belgium and Holland of 20th August, 1846, whereby
• very great injury had been inflicted on the commercial
classes of this country. The nerdy of 1824 stipulated that the
duties on one goods imported into Holland from the East Indies
in British vase's should not exceed double the duty on the
sales goods imported in Dutch vessels. By the recent treaty
with Belgium goods were imported in Belgian bon onis
at
the same duty as in Dutch vessels ; and the operation of this
treaty was also made retrospective, the duties having been
returned for the six months preceding. Coming at
the same time as tho reminnon of duties on Bel-
gian goods, it was peculiarly unfavourable to our
commerce. This advantage was not altogether unre-
stricted, but was confined, in respect to Belgian import',
to 8,000 tans. On the articles of sugar, coffee, tallow, hides,
camphor, copper, and pepper, the duties on British vessels

maw la most seem doable these em Belgian vessels, and in
Eimeanoss the disproporties was greater; for on sugar
lam there was a duty of d pm lent. on British vessels,
la Helen vessels they men bee. He wished to ask
the lAN Mid (Palnauton) wham his attention had been
magi Is the infraction of this Meaty, whether any remon-
strances had been made to the government of the Nether-
lands, and whether there was any prospect of redress being
Waal ?
irleamt PALIOMISTON said that the matter had been
Mill Yes maw the aemdderatioa of the government ; and
mu at dm paimat sameat the subject of frequent comma-
shades mllb lisievensent of the Netherlands, which her
gtre gournesist would continue to follow up. It wen
y true, assails" by the noble lord, that, by the treaty
at 1824 with the Nellerlands, British subjects ware plead
ibseingizir
em tie of the vent favoured nations. It was also quite
doer test, el IS Oil advantages guaranteed to Belgium
Iby tee NOM teemed to by the noble lord were not
endeadel Is desk entirety to British subjects, the stipule-
, are P' Se *may of 1824 were not fulfilled. Therefore, a
Just penal of complaint existed on the part of the British
gevaneasea. Bot'he owed it, in fairness to the Netherlands
seveemmaa, to state that this demand did not rest on single
sail atm& pass& : for, at the same time, there was in &s-
-eries lofts*" the two governments a counter demand,
yid& ball kola semis by the government of the Nether-
lands in 1146—fended en the treaty of 1831—ss demand to
be mighled to the come privileges, with regard to shipping
sad nevigaties, as had been granted to Hanover end Meck-
lenburg -by treaties entered into with those powers. These
two counter claims were still the subject of investigation ;
and he hoped thlit the j ust and honourable feelings which
animated bee Majestys government, and no doubt equally
inspired the government of the Netherlands, would ensure
the conclusion of this communication upon a footing equally

asEdmMfLMr beilk esestries.
TREATMENT OP BRITISH

MApRIRA..

Sir R. H. INOLIS wished to esk the right hon. Secretary
for Foreign Affairs if he would consent to lay before the
hours certain papers connected with Ike return of Dr. Kelley
from Madeira, so em to show the circumstances under which
that gentlemen had been expelled from that Wand, and the
way in which he had been treated?
Viscount PALMERSTON said the subject was one of
great importance to British residents abroad, and also one of
great &nosey in reference to our relations with foreign go-
vernments. Whilst it was the duty of the government to
secure the utmost freedom to British residents abroad in the
exercise of their religious opinions and professions, yet when
these individuals set themselves to proselytise and °onset t the
subjects of other nations, then there arose a question of a
very different nature from that of the simple protection of
the lives, property, commerce, and opinions of British sub-
jects, and one which involved a just regard. to the feelings
and prejudices of the natives of other countries. If a party
of Spanish or Portuguese *nits should come ever to this
country, and openly practise the conversion of British sub-
jects to their tenets, the public feeling would be so wounded
by =eh a proceeding, that the question would assume a very
different character from the mere assertion , on the part of Spain
or Portugal, of the right of its subjects to the five and unmo-
lested exercise of their own forms of belief. The case ad-
verted to was one of this kind. He had no hesitation in saying
that Dr. Kelley and other British subjects in Madeira
had bean ill-used, and that compensation was due
to them from the government for the outrages and insults
they had suffered. Dr. Kelley had been compelled, not by
any act of the government, but by the danger to which he
was exposed from:plar tumults in Madeira, to quit the
Wand. This tumult,' m the Information received, appeared
to have been exci by a priest of the island, and not to
have been the result of the general feeling. However, Dr.
Halley was compelled, for his personal safety, to quit the
island. His house had been taken poesession of by the
authorities and held by them. A commissioner had been
sent from Lisbon to examine into the matter • and the gover-
nor and the lieutenant-governor had been dismissed for their

misconduct in the eles...-A trial was instituted of some of
I the rioters ; bat the were acquitted, owing to some of the
jury with them by family ties or personal
p. Since that time, a revolution having taken
irrois Madeira, end a junta in connexion with the junta of
having been substituted for the regular government,
• wernnt bad been issued by the government of List, in
against the chief of the rioters, who, when apprehended,
would be brought to trial. All Dr. Kalley's property in
Madeira had been restored to a person authorised by hint to
take possession of it ; still he demanded compensation for the
ill-usage of which he complained. He (Viact. Palmerston)
had called on him to state the particular grounds and amount
of his claim; till that statement was received, no further
steps could be taken ; therefore, it would De premature to
lay any papers before the house. If, when the legal advisers
of the crown were consulted, there were found grounds for
compensation, and that was conceded by the Portuguese
government, nothing further would be required. As to Dr.
Balle's return to Madeira, there was nothing to prevent
thatbut his own apprehensions. He, of course, would
enjoy there all the protection which the treaties of the
crown could afford, and which the influence and rightful
demands of the British government could give him—all the
protection which the consular officers of the British govern-
ment could afford. But if he asked him (Viscount Palmer-
ston) to tell him beforehand, as a prophet, whether, if he
returned, and pursued his system of conversion, which was
evidently, against the prejudices and feelings of the people,
he would be exposed to danger, that was a question which it
was totally Impossible for the government at London to
answer. He might rely that whatever protection could be
afforded beforehand would be granted, and that, if he sus-
tained any inry, redress would be demanded, which was
all that could be - din any beforehand.

ProloWda a
TAUSTBESItiIIY
LiEF

On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. J. STEWART said he could not allow it to pass
without drawing the attention of the house to a serious ob-
jection which he entertained to it. By one clause • majority
of the trustees were empowered to pay messy into okammey,
although the testator had dingle& lot hreadmemt the son-
, sequence sou, mon t7it.tios paid io, beiogiometed la Ike duvet
per cents., suffered • on in proportion to the depre-
ciation of that particular stock. Thus the **dui pie friss! was
injured; and had the bill been discussed earlier, he did not
believe such a clause would have been allowed to pus. As
the matter stood, he would not divide the house.
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
BISHOPRIC OF MANCHESTER BILL,
On the motion that the house do go into committee on this
bill,
Mr. FREWEN said, that if the dioceses of St. Asaph and
Bangor remained separate, as they would if this bill teased,
it would establish the principle that no other small dsooeses
should be consolidated. If the act of 1836 we. broken in
upon, more bishops and smaller dioceses must be made. If
government was not prepared to do this, they ought to abide
by the existing arrangement. Three other bishoprics were
roorl. In two of these ca, St. Alban's and Bodmin,
ed ms
and chapter existed. consequently, the principle of
comp' crelire could not be maintained. Perhaps it would be
Si well to abandon this course altogether, as was done during
the Reformation ; and at present nothing of the kind pro.
railed in Ireland, the bishops being appointed by letters
patent from the Crown.
Mr. HUME said, if the government was determined to
press this bill, so strong was his objection to it, that he would
make use of every form of the house to oppose it. (Hear,
hear.) Some time ago, be had asked whether an act of par-
liament was necessary for this purpose, and learning that it
was, he had relied on having ample time for the discussion.
Before going into the question, he wished to know what ap-
plication had been made to government for these additional
b•shops —whether. of thei=us districts had applied,
trElmtoile°2;B, it had
*bees thama ?t
sb)ould fetnheo
MOM bishops, per no mom money than 138,0001. applied to
episcopal purposes. This bill was an infraction of that solemn
agreement with the public. The abolition of the ten
bishoprics in Ireland had met with general support ; and on
a late proposal to continue the bishopric of Kildare, the
noble President of the Council had objected to it,
on the ground that it would infringe this compact.
Instead of increasing the number of bishops and augmenting
their salaries, the revenues of the church should be se allo-
cated as to give a sufficient income to the poorer incumbents,
to cut down the revenue derived from large boneless, and
to do away with pluralities altogether. Suck was the prin-
ciple acted on in Scotland, where no clergyman had an in-
come of less than 1501. a year, or more than 3001., except,
perhaps, in a few inetances, where clergymen in large towns
received 5001. per annum. Instead, therefore, of applying
the surplus revenues of the church to the increase of the
number and salute' of bishops and the adornment of their
palaces, such revenues should be appropriated to an equalise,
tion of the incomes of the clergy. He had no desire to take
any of the revenues of the church from the clergy, but he
was most desirous that those revenues should be fairly ap-
portioned. He urged the propriety of postponing the bill
till next session. If the government did not do so, he should
oppose the bill in every stage, and he should now move that
the committee on this bill be postponed till this day week.
Mr. Id. PHILIPS seconded the motion. He thought
there bad bean unusual haste in pressing forward this bill,
and he should like to know from what quarter the noble
lord had received encouragement to bring forward the mea-
sure ? There was amongst a large body of hie constituents
a feeling of the inutility of the measure, and they were
opposed to the manner in which the funds of the church
were at present distributed. He thought the bill should be
withdrawn. Persons of all classes in Manchester were
opposed to it. Ha did not believe that the moral and reli-
gions instruction of the people of Manchester would be pro.
moted by the appointment of a bishop, and he was sure it
would give rise to great discontent to see a bishop enjoying every
luxury whilst thousands were in want of the necessaries
He did not think that the noble lord would gain any reputa-
tion by persevering with this bill from those who usually
opposed him. (Hear.) No persons WOW mere active in
their canvas. alpine the liberal interest than those who were
the most zealous advocates of this measure. (Hear.) If this
bill paired, other bishops would be in store for them, and if a
Bishop of Manchester was once created he would before
many years became a member of the other house of parlia-
ment. (Hear.) He saw no use, in a moral or religious poiat
of view, in the creation of the see of Manchester, and there-
fore he would join his hon. friend in asking the government
not to proceed any farther with the bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL mid he could not complain of the
opposition mimed to ibis bill by the two hon. gentlemen who
had just spoken; but, siaildering that its second reading
was carried by a orejoritp of 124 to 15, it was not surprising
that he proposed lagomeed with it. He thought that the
speeches of both ths hop. gentlemen proceeded on a mis-
apprehension, for there was no compact by which the bishops
were to be kept at a certain number, or by which their re-
venues were to be 135,0001. But if there was any such com-
pee on which they could not infringe, it was a compact by
which the bishopric of Manchester was to be founded. His
bon. friend spoke as if this was a new question ; a hereas a
bill passed some ten years ago by which parliament assented
to the creation of a bishop of M ,nchester. (Hear, hear.) It
could not be said that the bill came by surprise and was her-'

rid through parliament; became, on the 12th IPebroary,
it was stated in a paper which was laid ea the table of the
house, that It would he proposed to keep empeasee themes of
Bangor sad St. Aleph, and to create a Whop et Maaeltes-
ter. From the 12th of February it was notorious, there-
fore, that a bill would be introduced on the sub-
ject. With regard to the parochial state at Mar
cheater, to which his honourable kiwi aihliikett.
was not a matter properly belonging to th.esset
aloe. If they proposed to take away as bum the
parochial fends, and with it to create a B' Xershas-
ter, such an argument might be used; but, as the hods foe
this purpose cams from the diminution of the revenues of
the Me of the Bishop of Durham and the Bishop of Ely,
and other bishops whose revenues were reduced by act of
parliament, it wee no reason, if they were not applied to the
creation of a Bishop of Manchester, why they should be
applied to the parochial wants of Manchester rather than to
any other part of the country. (Hear.) It would be more
natural to apply them to the parochial wants of the see of
Durham and the isle of Ely. His hon. friend said that, as
dissenter, he could not judge of church questions. In
fairness it ought to be allowed that the bishops formed
part of the government of the church of England. It was
not complete without them. (Hear, hear.) It was, there-
fore, no more an argument to say you ought not to have more
bishops because there are many parochial clergy in want,
than it would be to say you ought not to make any more
generals by brevet, but give the money to increase the pay
of the private soldiers. (Hear, hear.) Bishops were neces-
sary for the church government in England, and if the
diocese of Chester was too large for one bishop, that was an
argument for dividing it, and having another bishop in the
diocese. The whole question seemed to resolve itself into
this, whether the population of the country had not in-
creased to such an extent, and new towns and new distriete
having sprung up, it did not become necessary to have an
additional number of bishops. and to see what number should
be created, and what revenues they should have? (Hear.)
He would not argue the question whether the whole fund
for episcopal purposes should be applied to those purposes
only, or whether they should be applied to parochial pur-
poses. That was a question which depended very much on
the amount of the episcopal funds. He was far from think-
ing taut it ought to be sacred. If it was more than sue-
dent for episcopal purposes it ought to be applied to other
church pupates. But that was not a question of principle;
but one to be decided by the amount of revenue. The way
in which they ought to be applied he hoped the house would
show be assenting to this bill. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said he did not think that house was
the place to make a profession of religious faith. The hon.
member for Manchester bad candidly stated that he was •
dissenter from the church of England ; and his opinions,
therefore, in this matter ought to be received with caution
and reserve. He (Sir J. Graham) might be permitted to
observe that he was • sincere and faithful member of the esta-
blished church, and, without making any extravagant pro-
fessions, he was &imposed to think that those who did not make
the loudest and most boisterous professions of attachment
were generally found the surest and firmest friends of the
establishment. (Hear, hear.) He could not support the
motion of the bon. member for Cockermouth, on Tuesday,
because he rested his opposition to the bill on a question of
time. He agreed with the noble lord opposite that there
was no surprise in the case—that there was no compact. He
believed the subject was ripe for decision, and that it would
be injurious to delay it. He was prepared to go into com-
mittee on tke bill for the purpose of proposing or supporting
certain amendments, the fate of which would decide the vote
he should give on its future stage. But there were a few
points of primary importance which the house should con-
eider before they entered into a direuesion of the details of
the bill. He had the strongest possible opinion that the present
amount of property in the hands of the church, whether epis-
copal, capitular, or parochial, formed the only fund on which,
for future church purposes, with regard to spiritual instruc-
tion in counezion with the Church of England, reliance
could be placed. (Hear, hear.) When he considered the
unhappy differences which prevailed throughout the Unitid
Kingdom on the subject of religion, and the weight which
popular influence had on that breach of the legislature, be
did not think that taxes could be levied in future from the
whole population of the country for the purposes of the
established church. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, to him—as a
member of the Church of England, thinking that they had
now to deal with the distribution of the property of the
church, limited in amount, and being so limited, all that
was available to meet the growing wants of that church—
this question became of vast importance. (Hear, hear.) He
concurred with the hon. member for South Lancashire, when
he said that the question now to be decided was, whether, on
the whole, it was moot for the interest of the Church of
England that funds limited in amount should be applied to
the endowment of new bishops, or applied to meet the wants
of the population at large, in the shape of an augmentation
of small livings, and endowing the district churches,
which had been recently both, and which depended
on the pew rents. (Hear, hear.) If that were the question,
he had the gravest doubts whether it would be for the inte-
rest of the established church that, at the present time and
in the present circumstances, they should proceed not only
with the endowment of one bishopric, but commit themselves,
as this bill appeared to commit them, to the future endow-
ment of three additional bishops. (Hear, hear.) He very
much doubted—the episcopal fund being now kept distinct
from the common fond at the disposal of the ecclesiastical
commissioners, and on hon. gentlemen proposing to endow
sixty suffragans out of it, a certain prelate proposing to endow
additional bishoprics in England, and others proposing to
endow colonial bishops—whether it would not be better to
say at once that the number of bishops would not be increased,
and that the distinction between the episcopal fund and the
common fund should be abolished and extinguished. (Hear,
hear.) Till he became a member of the ecclesiastical
commission, he was not aware that this dirtinetion
existed as recognised by statute. In the year 1836, the
first commission was appointed, and in that year, on the
report of that commission, an act of parliament was intro-
duced dealing with episcopal revenues. That act remained
in force till 1840, when an act of parliament, founded on
the second report of the ecclesiastical commitaioners, was
introduced, which dealt with the property of chapters, and
created funds for the purpose of augmenting and endowing
small livings. This act (the 3 & 4 Viet., e. 113, s. 90) con-
tained a clause in these words, " that the former act and
this act are to be construed as one act." The effect of these
words was, to fuse the episcopal fund and the common fund
into one. From 1840 to 1841, the distinction between these
funds did not exist, but in the latter year an act was intro-
duaid to amend the act of 1840, and, at the ead of the clause
of sec. 30, it repeated the provisions contained in the words
he had cited to the house. (Hear, hear.) No notice
being taken of the effect of the words in the ace; of
1840, no attention was drawn to these important weeds
in the act of 1841—the complete fusion of the two funds was
destroyed, and their separation was in this manner created
for the first time. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean to deny
that the distinction was recognised in subsequent acts of par-
liament. Ia the government of which he lately formed a
part, this question of departure from the first report of 1836
—this departure—he would not use any stronger term—from
the understanding that the bishoprics of St. Aleph and
Bangor were to be united, and that a bishop of Manchester
was to be created, waediscuased, and those who were then the
advisers of her Majesty did not think it expedient to advise her
Majesty to depart from that intention. (Hear, hear.) It
was now said that the advice given in 1838 was given only
by a small portion of the bench of bishops. It was given,
however, by the two archbishops, the present Bishop of Lin-
don and the Bishops of Lincoln and Gloucester. But there were
other persons entitled to great respect and attution,who joined
in this recommendation. The revered father of the noble Iced
who represented Liverpool, than whom he did not know a
more sincere friend of the church of England, or a more
judicious church reformer—he alluded to the Earl of Har-
rowby, of whom he spoke with unfeigned respect—signed
that report in 1836. (Hear, hear.) Sir Herbert Jeoner,
who possessed in an eminent degree the confidence of the
Archbishop of Canterbury, signed it. (Hear, hear.) Lord
Cottenham, the Marquis of Lansdowne Lord Melbourne
and the noble bird opposite Lord J iseinU), who he be:
!laved wee aelaated by a siases.dasire to promote the
spiritual wailer* et tire emattlithed *arch, Aped it.
(Item, bear.) They dietiaelly eameameraded that me addi-
tion to the totarbar et tobbep Iberia le made, mad that ems
the want of a blame et Mearbieter Amid remit martin-
fled till the union of two sees, theme of Olosember and
Bristol and Bangor and Bt. &mph. That report did we re.;
main unprodaativ• ead a dead to
; ea the entree', tire
most impartial monger maim' ips that report Were
taken. The smile dile arm of Gloraerter sad Bridal
was carried he. odd. Re would ask, did the Were*
of the chore nee Ilem that union. (Hear, hear.) Oct
of the 24 bishoprics sad 2 archbishoprics there was not ems,
with the exception of those of Winchester, Chichester, and
Exeter, the limits of which had not been altered in confor-
mity with that report. It was contended that the bishops in
their respective dioceses had more to attend to than they
could perform. That led him to consider what the duties of
bishops were. The first duty wee the ordination of priests,
sad thin duty was performed in one of the three ember
weeks. The next duty was that of visitation and confirma-
tion. Until lately, this was done once every three years,
and inanely dioceses that was still the rule, but where it was
perfumed mareardly be did not think, with the presort fa-
cilities et travellinaic, that it could be considered an over-
Whellall4l labour. Hear, hear.) Then there was the most
important deity of , that of holding intercourse with the
clergy. He did not expect that many members of the
church would concur with him is the opinion he held
on this subject, but he was one of those who thought
that a daily intercourse between the bishop and the clergy
was desirable. He held it was important that the authority
of the bishop should be maintained as an appellate authority,
and that being obliged to hold discipline over the clergy his
authority would be better maintained by cotarattalcattens in
writing, than by an intercourse approaching to anythiag
that was familiar. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the eon-
secretion of churches, that bishop was fortunate who was
called on to perform that duty three or four times in his life.
(Hear, hear.) He was the more confirmed in his views on
this point, beanie he saw that these duties were at this
moment performed in the most exemplary manner by an
archbishop above the age of 80. (Hear, hear.) The duties'
of two of the most important sees, those of Salisbury and
Bath and Wells, were most exoellently performed by the bro-
ther of the hon. member for Mahon. He could even conceive
over-activity and over-zeal on the part of the bishop with
regard to the interests of the church. It might be con-
cluded from what he had said that he would vote
against the farther progress of the bill, but he was not
prepared to take that rouse. He considered that the cir-
cumstances of the diocese of Chester were peculiar, and he
was of opinion that, so far from there being a compact that
the diocese of Manchester should not be created, the com-
pact was the other way. He had hoped that when the see
of St. Asaph became vacant that the Bishop of Bangor
would undertake to perform the duties of both sec; but he
declined to do so. And that the erection of the ace of
Manchester should be delayed till the lapsing of one of
these sees he thought would be inexpedient He could not
conceal from himself, that twice in the other house of par. 1

Utmost • proposition kr the creation of the aura Man- '
cheater was carried,amillhottho himileitho abseil of
throug sand thole eponvesen
(Hear, hue) arete 11
then. dna OM Maths
of the episcopal tail end e cs thad. then vas
an available swine oat of the /Mast seas vat
fr the emilearellellt of tits we et Moriellse.
la pang. In wethi adore to whet Ith trot the agile bed
ionothitlf the ofethallo of that had, la whit be laid
down a priiim weenneememil le to ha met
The lON bed eppentradl te dithibno mold be palffhird:
ship fa treasheriag the rondo of bidieries te risty other
purpose than the endowment ohm bitheriee. That ergo.
easst, if pushed to its legitimate extent, would be quite fatal
to the whole basis se ties ecalinhatioal comenindoo. He saw
`he raise Itird_sblip is *press funds arising from the
ODEON& ile the oadewmeat of a cure in Bir- '
or Mosehsehe than fa applying funds arising I
from Ib. pr ebeedoto lad dessothe le met the deficiencies
aeon miatiadostisel distrist. (nor, brae.) He was no longer
le loaintsin the espouglea thattle opleopel
Poem
=mu fund. He thought the tormeem
of a portion se the *Omega fond to the use of the
cosmos feed was mot deniable ; he at owe advanied the
obliteration dell diedathea between do nee hale—(bear,
hear)—and he moll strennettaly vain the peeped of soy
pledge, direst er laireet, that the imam et Sifter should
be increased beyond the biahoprie of Maaelmater. With
that view, if the boo went into Metrinittee, It was his in-
tention to propose that the preesestdo should not be post•
poned, and that the words oaatalaing • recognition of the
intention declared by her Majesty te endow three additional
bishoprics should be struck out. (Hear.) This brought
him to • molt important pert of the subject. It
had been mid that a changed sircumstanoes would
justify a change of purpose with rope* to an augmentation
of the number of bishops. He would IA the attention of the
house to the reasons reigned in the root of the commission
for not recommending an increase. In limed upset, friends
of the church—archbishops and Mims Lend Gottenham,
Lord Lansdowne, and Lord John Rusell—detolled dream-
stenoes which still existed in full force, as constituting rea-
sons why all available resource* should be applied to parochial
purposes, and not to the endowment of any additional bishop-
rics. It mid, " The most prominent of the defects which
cripple the energies of the established church, and dream-
seribe its awfulness, is the want of churches and ministers is
the large towns and populous districts. The growth of the po-
pulation has been so rapid as to outrun every means pommelled
by the establishment for meeting its spiritual wants, and the
result is that a vast proportion of the people are left destitute
of the opportunities of public worship and christian instruc-
tion, even when every allowance is made for the exertions
of those religious bodies which are not fir connexion with
the established church." Not to weary the house with
details, he would select specimens from four dioceses.
There were, the report stated, in the metropolis thirty-
four parishes and districts containing a population of
1,137,000, with church accommodation for only 101,000.
In the diocese of Chester there were thirty.eight
parishes and districts, containing a population of 806,000,
with church accommodation for only 98,000. In the
diocese of York, there were twenty parishes and districts
containing a population of 402,000, with church accommoda-
tion for only 48,000. In the diocese of Lichfield and Coven-
try, there were sixteen parishes and districts, containing a
Population of 236,000, with church accommodation for only
29.000. The summary of the statement was, that there were
108 parishes in four dioceses in England, with a population
of 2,380,000, having church accommodation for °sly 276,000.
Such was the state of affairs in 1836. Immense and most
praiseworthy efforts had been made sines that period to
increase the available means of providing church ministen
and church accommodation for the destitute poor in the
dense muses of the population; but at the same time the
population had been increasing, and he spoke advisedly,
and on the highest episcopal authority, when he said that all
which had been done, in the metropolis and in the manufac-
turing districts, aided even by the meunre of his right hoc.
friend (Sir R. Peel) for extending, with the means of the
church, the parishes and districts in the different coun-
ties fell short of the increase of the population
from 1836 down to the present period. All the
facts set forth in the report were practically unchanged,
and the inference was irresistible, that all the reasons as-
signed for applying all available funds to the increase of
parochial church accommodation, as contradistinguished
from the increase of bishoprics, were still valid and in full
force. But the report did not stop there. It said, " A com-
parison between the amount of the population and the
church room will nut furnish, by itself, an accurate view
of the provision which is made for the spiritual
wants of the people, because many of the chapels
which contribute to swell the amount of church
room have no particular district assigned to them."
The commissioners added that they considered the assign-
ment of a district to each church and chapel necessary to the
establishment of pastoral jurisdiction, and to the carrying
out of the proper objects of the church. A sounder prin-
ciple was, he maintained, never laid down. He attached
the utmost importance to the existence of a resident pastor,
visiting the people daily at their homes, comforting them
in their sorrows, aiding and relieving them in sick-
ness, and winning them by his daily ministrations
to partake of his Sunday ministrations. When the
people came to the church they should not, he thought,
be taxed in the shape of pew rents, but should
have free amem to it without any such charge. Such
were the principles laid down in the report, and which every
sound churchman should wish to maintain ; principles, the
maintenance of which was, be contended, far more important
than any addition to the number of bishoprics. (Hear, hear.)
The report want on to say : " While these evils are the most
urgent of all, and meat require the application of an effectual
remedy, they are precisely those for which a remedy can
least easily be found." If parliament obliterated the dis-
tinction between the episcopal fund and the common fund,
all the accumulations of the former fund merged in
the latter would be immediately available to meet these
evils. The report proceeded ..—‘‘ The resources which the
established church possums, and which can properly be made
available for that purpose, in whatever way they may be
husbanded or distributed, are evidently quite inadequate to
the exigencies of the case ; and all that we can hope to do, is
gradually to diminish the intensity of the evil." The inten-
sity of the evil still existed, and they would leave that inten-
sity unredeemed if they applied the funds of which he had
spoken to episcopal, and not to parochial, purposes. (Hear,
hear.) Under the peculiar circumstances of the are, he
could not but record his assent to the creation
of a bishop of Manchester, bat he certainlycould not advance
one step further in that direction ; and on going into com-
mittee it would be his duty to resist any such proposition.
(Hear, hear.) There still remained an important question
apes which he was anxious to express an opinion. 'Me ob-
jected to that provision of the bill which contemplated the
creation of bishop; with imperfect rights as bishops.
(Hear, hear.) He was decidedly of opinion that if
any addition were made to the episcopacy, the pre-
rogative of the crown ought not in each case to
be limited, and that all bialoops should have an equal
right to sit in the other house. When such principles existed
as thou which the hon. member for Manchester had frankly
avowed, he thought they could not shake the title of the
bench to sit in parliament in a more formidable manner than
by en enactment like that to which he alluded. (Hear,
hear.) What would happen ? Some energetic, faithful
minister would be appointed the bishop of • populous dis-
trict; he would have no temptation to come to the metropo
Its ; his whole time would be dossied a the discharge of hie
sacred duties, no call being node upon bin he the exercise
of political functions. An invidious somprinia wadi be
instituted between the bishop thus Nita. I. end dented
to his see, and thus confining hangar to bit 'Mead dodo,
and other bishops who were placed in a different position.
As if that were not sufficient, the bill secured the drawing of
I a most invidious comparison between a bishop when sitting
the same bishop when not sitting in the House of Lords.
If • bishop went up to parliament, It would be said, it
was impossible for him to denote his whole time
and resources to the cure of bk see, or to exercise
that charity which befitted the ereentel odes; and, as if
even that woe net salLdant, a now bad boa introduced
depriving maths' we of We niasiry et the right which
the elogyntea of these one had den weed thew enjoyed,
tflipidafeezneentled is the Hon of Lee& lob as
at thin whit he led jot anatteasi appeared
to Ida Imo impolitic Item add that whoa as sea of
Dolma end Winchester became vamonit, the Map ethos
no told be deprived of their sen to a oat la polio-
oat Whet wee the ground aexelmiso ? Was it
he on account of the eaperier dignity of dose sees ?
rgavr, bear.) He should that It was ; for Hit were
not, then was there epuiatfon in the exclusion. (Hear,
hear.) But if that were not the ground he would ask why
were not the dioceses of Bider and Carlisle es much entitled
to exemption as any othrr ? He could imagine no defence on
principle for suck an arrangement, and he foresaw that every
pyoossuiible disadvantage would attend it. Let net the house, then.
limit the prerogative of the crown; let themtake their stand and
declare that they would not,
the bench—(cheers)
consent to
any further addition to rs) ;
above all, when the hon. member for Manchester told them
that he was desirous of seeing tho bishops, one and all, re-
moved from the House of Lords, let them not take a step
which, is Iris (Bir J. Graham's) judgment would have •
deeded tendency to shake the title of the bishops to their
seats in the other house of parliament. (" Hear," and amen.)
It was said that the discipline of the bishops over the clergy
was, owing to the inadequacy of their numbers, incomplete.
That circumstance was not overlooked in the admirable re-
port to which he had referred. That report contemplated
the maintenance and even the enlargement of the discipline.
How ? Not by multiplying the number of bishops, but in
their respective dioceses adding to their efficiency by means
of archdeacons and rural deans. The report also pointed
out the means by which that might be done. He was
sorry to have detained the house so long. His course
was plain. Anything like a factions opposition to
the bill he would strenuously resist. He thought
that the bia mooted a principle dangerous to the
church, and that no time ought to be lost in
taking the opinion of the representatives of the people
with respect to the course to be pursued. (Cheers.) He was
quite prepared to propose in committee, to exclude from the
preamble the words which gave an implied pledge that an
additional number of bishops, beyond the Bishop of Man-
cheater, should be created, and he would also propose to
strike out the second clause of this bill. Parliament would
thus be asked to negative all those aspirations which had
been formed for a larger—an indeflnite—number of bishops.
("Hear," and laughter.) The hon. member for the Unirersity
of Oxford (continued the right hon. gentleman), whom I am
sorry not now to see in his place, has commended the noble
lord at the head of the present government, at the
expertse of the antecedent government, as if he
were a better friend of the church than we could
boast of being, Now, sir, it is not always friends,
who are the most compliant, who are the most judicious and
sincere. (Hear, hear.) Requests are often injudiciously
made by the members of a profeesiot, which, if conceded, are
found to have been fatal to those who preferred them ; and I
believe that this is an instance of that kind. I know that

the heads of the church generally, If not unanimously, desire
this augmentation of their ember. I feel, and feel strongly,
that it is not additional ornament for the temple that we re-
quire, but beltausses to sustain it. (Hem, hear.) I
fear that this augmentation of the episcopacy will
excite the jealousy, And inflame the anknoitity,
'ef that dissenting body which looks mem the
shwa with an evil eye. (Hear, hear.) As a eiturehinan,
I Ma from the hue. member lee Montrose whoa he states
theta's& pesperty le gabble property in the seam in which
he employs the Seer& 1 elealler it he bathe at of pious
ma in each tims, set ern to the mow at that Mi-
r whistle moseletel with the state. I would sit ohmage
of see ihethieg of it ; but I think that, se
st=ia
• etrchetelt, I ea entitled, in my loglektive
equity, I. look at the whole question, and to vote he the
eperetekties of the elturelea revenue., limited in amesat,
in the Ammer which I think most likely to do good to the
whole body. (Hear, hear.) lam deeply, honestly, and
sincerely convinced that en appropriation of those re-
venues to an increase of the number of bishops beyond
the addition of the Bishop of Manchester, would bee most int•
prudent and improper appropriation ; and certainly I shall
not fa' on this occasion to give effect to my sentiments in
the manner most likely to be effectual—namely, by. voting
for going into committee, and in committee proposing the
alterations which I have stated. (Cheers.)
Mr. ACLAND was glad that they now knew on what
ground the late government had proceeded as re-
garded the church of England. (Hear, hear.) The laity
of England had loooked fairly at this question, and would
rather have additional bishops without seats in the House of
Lords than lose the benefits of such en addition. The state,
after all, gained more than the church by the legislative
aqsacity of bishops. As the country was now divided on
religious subjects, be did not thick it desirable to ask for
• grant of public money for the exercise of spiritual func-
tions, but he hoped to see the day when all would unite for
the same end.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH regretted exceedingly that the
Prime Minister would not content to withdraw this mea-
sure. It raised questions too serious to be discussed at this
period of the session. It raised questions as to the extent of
spiritual destitution, and how it ought to be relieved. It
raised questions, too, as to whether we ought to add to
the pomp and pride of tke hierarchy without assisting the
working clergy. The right hon. baronet had shown that
the labours of the hierarchy were not overwhelming. What
good reason had been given for augmenting their number ?
If their duties were too burdensome, release them of those
which appertained to parliament. It was his opinion that
bishops could not be both good bishops and good legislators,
and that it would be better to release them altogether front
their seats in the House of Lords.

MILNES received the concession made by the
government in this bill with the greatest satisfaction. If the
question was before them whether the episcopacy or clergy
were to be increased, he might take a different view ; but
that was not the point now to be deeded. The creation of •
bishopric of Manchester had ben recommended for a long
time. It was well known that the Bishop of Chester had far
too many duties to perform; and he could see no reason why
that right rev. prelate should not be relieved. With respect
to the seats of bishops in the House of Lords, he owned he
essuld see no good reason for not adding a few to the existing
number.
Mr. E. DENISON expressed surprise at the speech of Sir
J. Graham, who was the very member of the government of the
day who objected to all inquiries respecting the ecclesiastical
commission. Why had not the right hon. baronet himself,
when a minister of the crown, arranged for the amalgama-
tion of the episcopal and common funds ? Why had he per-
mitted so large an amount to be spent in his time upon the
erectlea of palaces ? lie could not but feel some doubt
whether they should have heard any of these strong opinions
if it had not been for the committee recently appointed upon
this subject.
Viscount SANDON could not lose this opportunity of en-
tering his solemn protest against the views respecting the
episcopacy expressed by the right hon. baronet. He could
not regard the prelates of the church as a sort of chief clerks
or calculating machines. Could it be possible that that right
hon. baronet believed a christian bishop had nothing else to
do than spend so many hours in consecrating churches, con-
firming, and ordaining ? In his (Lord &Loden's) diocese, it
was very different. There the bishop was the friend and
counsellor on all occasions. Talk of a consecration :
why, could the right honourable baronet realise the
labours of a bishop connected with that church
which was the subject of consecration ? Look at the
correspondence of a bishop. Few statesmen in that house
had • larger epistolary correspondence to conduct. Look
at the diocese of London. At the next vacancy in the see of
Winchester it would contain not less than 2,000,000 inha-
bitants. What labour must not be thrown on the prelate of
that diocese. For his own part, he desired to see bishops not
merely great state functionaries, but the fathers of the
clergy, and the originators of every great and good measure.
He should be satisfied with no episcopacy that did not in-
crease with an increasing population. We did not treat our
army as we treated the church. The larger the army, the
more the generals i but with respect to the church, we let it
increase for centuries, without increasing the bishops. He
did hail the proposition before them as the beginning of
better things. He cared little whether or not the new
bishops had mate in the House of Lords. He thought it a
delusion. that a man could not be • bishop unless he were a
temporal peer.
Mr. NEWDEGATE hailed the measure with gratitude,
and deprecated the manner in which the right hon. ni tu-
ber for Dorchester had spoken of the appointment of a bishop
for Manchester.
. _

Lord CLIVE supported the bill.
Mr. HORSMAN said that he had not suggested the sup-
pression of deans, but merely a modification of their revenues,
and of those of the canonries, which would leave 100,8801.
a year applicable' to effective church purposes. He also
denied that he had proposed the institution of sixty new
bishoprics. He viewed this measure with much alarm, and
be considered the pressing it forward at this period of the
session meet injudicious, and he still trusted that it would
be postponed till next session.
Mr. GOULBURN expressed his belief that if the measure
were deferred until next session, as suggested by some hon.
members, and even if a more extended measure were pro-
posed, the tame objections would be offered as towards the
limited bill then before the house. For this reason, his
advice was, that the government should proceed with the
bill. (Hear, herr.) He felt all the objections which bed
been urged against bishops not having seats in the House of
Lords ; but still, under all the circumstances, he felt bound
to support the government measure. The question was, whe-
ther they should have a bishop in Manchester or not, and he
was inclined to answer decidedly in the affirmative. In coming
to that conclusion he was actuated by feelings far different
from those of such her. somber* as considered the office of
bishop a mere ornamented appendsge to the church. There
were in his mind mat merlons and Inaportaat duties attached
to the odic*. It was the duty Ma blimp to be intbnately ac-
quainted with the character of every peeeskial clergyman in
his diocese, and to be ready on all emessions to give his ad-
vice on questions of doctrine or discipline. Ho admitted
that it was not unnatural for dissenters to feel some jealousy
of any measure which went to increase the power of
the church, but he thought it was a little un-
fair when they were not called upon to supply
the funds, or to make any sacrifice of their In-
dividual opinions, that they should take any active
steps to obstruct a measure which was necessary for the dis-
cipline and efficiency of the established church. The bill
before the house, in addition to the bishopric of Manchester,
proposed to provide for the establishment of future sees,
when sufficient fonds had accumulated in the hands of the
ecclesiastical commission. If he had had the conduct of the
bill,he would ban confined it to the bishopric of Man-
chester. (Hear, hear.) Not that he did not admit the
necessity of increasing the number of bishoprics, tent because
he thought it would have been better to erellme the imme-
diate measure to its immediate objects, and to leave future
bishoprics to a future bill. (Hear, hear.) Haag thee
stated his opinion, he felt bound, under all the climate's's.,
to support the government measure. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. ESCOTT fully concurred with hon. -sale: se
to the importance of the present measure. One of die main
alimnisete to the merest re was, that a compaiet "Ada bed
been interei Ww bad been beam. New via wee the
Ranee alb* ampeet t It we that a bieleple et Um-
elusion should be areatei me soilitios that the tee rose of
Saner and Et. neap\ awl& be imbed. net ampeet bed
ban made when the Aga brim gentleman (lit. Gestlbuni)
was aniaider, and yet he now elm helm& to a bill
kir gresaistg the new bishopric, while as sees of and
Bt Ranh
_remained disunited; sad net only that, but it
was *team* else In die }enable, sad Ike right hon. gen-
tleman IMisportsil the prepeettioe, that three other new
bishopricsshould be eetablished bereelem It was all very
well to say that the dissenters were set interested in this
matter, and had ne right to interfere. But those who
used that argument were the worst friends of the
church, and those were the best friends of the church
who stood up against the position now taken by the
right hon. gentleman. But there was another compact still
more important—en implied compact—between the paths-
meat and the country, when the eoclesistical commission was
first setablished—vis, that the funds which accrued to that

-eases;ja;nWealsi TM &voted to increase the means of pro
Tiding reffigkms thethwelier it the people, and for augment-
ing smell ethee end bemethes. 'That was the object for
which that comethelea was appointed, not the increase of
bishoprics. its maid undertake to say that, if the whole
body of the erecting elergy were polled, 9-10ths of them
would be found oppoNd to this increase in the number of
bishoprics. And, la this respect, the feeling of the laity per.
hotly eohmikial with that oldie working clergy.lfit were not
so, how sit Net there were no Petitiol3l in favour of this
measure either him the aura or the people. The govern•
ment would not be able to cam the bill, and he called upon
them to withdraw it. lie reminded them of the soccer of
the opposition of a few determined members to the Irish
Arms Bill, which, after it had been lost, the lord-lieutenant
declared he could do better without than with it, and in the
same way the church would be benefited rather than injured
by the defeat of this bill.
Mr. WYNN had joined in the recommendation of the
commission for uniting the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor,
with the view of increasing the efficiency of the church,
in that part of Wales, by devoting the !surplus revenues to
the increase of the incomes of the poorer clergy, and the
establishment of additional churches. Although dissent
existed in Wales to a greater extent than he wished, it was
by no means so prevalent as had been supposed. Many
persons who were not dissenters were driven to attend dis•
senten' meeting houses, in consequence of the great dis
Mace of the parish churches. If a new bishop were appointed,
he agreed with his right bon. friend that he ought to posses
all the attributes of the offioe ; but he did not look upon a
seat in the House of Lords as a necessary attribute;
and while there were • sufficient number of bishops
in the House of Lords to watch over the interests of the
church, he could not consider that the fact of the
proposed new bishop not having • seat, was any suffi-
cient objection to the bill. Ile regretted the introduction of
the words in the preamble which pledged parliament to the

s creation of three other new bishops. Not that he ;knew
to that increase, but he thought that was a subject o!sas,
tient importance to be considered by itself. With rega.,!,.
the opinion of the clergy and laity to which the hon. malts*
thau(lkinitro.niEle.t°wr johitaldt)twbsltdriameakftereirrebanldedw. iittot wiadtuhebgeZuren uhrligtoyedadtakbyTeethriaerreaftoy:
of the bishoprics, which eould not be compenaated by a...-
improvement in the condition of the poorer clergy
from the surplus revenues. Luc year 230 petitions had bee;
presented against the proposed union—the majority of t.,.
from the dioceses which it was intended to unite. p.
thought it was of importance to prevent the union of the
sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. He should support the no.
Lion for the bill going into committee.
Bir R H. INOLIS said his hon. and learned friend, ta
member for Winchester (Mr. B. Escott), was " alP,thinga
by
turns and nothing long." (Much laughter.) He had ...a
of this, as of other measures, that it was the most ins
po,s
motion of the session—(renewed laughter)—and no osa
would conceive that, on a proposition to create three West
Indian bishoprics instead of two, the hon. and learned gel.
demon had voted for the larger number. (Hear, )
He had not Intended to address the house on that occasion,
but, after the speech of the right hon. member for 80..
cheater (Sir J. Graham), he felt bound to do so. That hoe•
gentleman said the church most look to its own rescuers_
to ita own parochial funds—but he did not alwan
hold that the state ought to be indifferent to the religion
education of the people ; for it did so happen that he one,
acted as if he thought differently ; and it would be found that
on the 15th July, 1840, he was willing to pledge himself to a I
resolution that no altered distribution of the revenues of the
church could remove the evil arising from the fact, that
addition of 6,000,000 souls had been made to the populatica
since the commencement of the present century, and the ter.
solution proceeded to pledge the house to adopt any measure
which her Majesty might recommend for more effectual
providing for the spiritual wants of the people. (sr.
hear, and laughter.) The speech of the hen. manila/
for Montrose, who was always opposed to tie
in these matters, was one which had been ohm
heard from him—a stereotyped speech, which many hoc
members no doubt could repeat. (Loughter.) The ne
member had delivered himself of nearly the same hunt.,
on the 30th ofJune. 1811. (Laughter.) With referent, to
the observation which had been made upon the bishops g
contrasted with the working clergy, he could only say
he knew bishop* who worked as much as any curaten. Ba
believed no individual, lay or spiritual, within his diem,
devoted more time to the good of his fellow.creatures ton
the Bishop of Chester. (Hear, hear.) And upon another
point which had been adverted to, he might remark the
that right reverend prelate had stated that *berm
ten years ago, in Lancashire, the proportion of clergymen n
the population was as one to 4,500 ; it was now one to 3,000,
It had been said there were no petitions in favour of the bill;
why there had been petitioas from every part of the toothy
against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, sod
many of those petition were also in favour of the see
bithoprie of Manchester. (Hear, hear.) He was rejoice
that there was now to be a substantive enactment for the
creation of that bishopric, and he was also glad to find the
the preamble of the bill shadowed forth other measures
equally important for the superintendence of the church by
her constituted and legitimate authorities. ( Ilea,, beso
Reserving to himself the right to amend the bill when is
committee, he should give his support to the motion, that the
Speaker do now leave the chair.
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY said the right hon. baronet (Sixl
Graham) had anticipated the remarks he bud intended u
offer to the house in support of the several amendments d
which he (Mr. J. 8. Wortley) had given notice. He WS,
however, observe that if the preamble of the bit had ben
silent as to the creation of other bishops except the Bahopd
Manchester, all difficulty would have been avoided. Ts
that part of the bill which created the new see of
Manchester be had no hesitation in eiving his sap.
port, but he objected to the provision which would hoe
the effect of excluding the individual appointed to them
from n seat in the House of Peets until by rotation he anal
be called upon io take his place in that assembly. The rots
lion system which the bill would introduce would place the
bishops in a most invidious position, and to such an amass
assent he wholly dissented. It compromised the rights aide
episcopacy, and involved an infringement of the emana-
tional prerogative of the Crown. On this point, therein
he felt great difficulty in supporting the measure as proceed
in its present form by the noble lord at the head of the r
vernment. Further than this, the bill contained no primes
for the erection of an ecclesiastical court in the new dimes
proposed to be created. In that respect he desired to knee
what was intended, for the creation of n bishopric implied the
right of that bishop to hold a spiritual court within thenrit
diction assigned to him; but on this the measure was sint
In the first pine no provision was made for their stens
Lion. Their authority extended over the whole of then"►
tree, but it might be extinguished at any moment by at
hand that conferred it. He did not mean to make any sig
gestion on this subject in committee, but be (It that tb
matter was well worthy of the attention of the gLoverenen
If the alterations in the bill were made such as he sunreati
he would be willing to support it, but otherwise he mil
give the third reading his opposition.
Mr. B. OSBORNE thought that the right hon. gentlest
the member for Dorchester had approved himself on till
occasion a true friend of the established church. The goes
tioo •••••• how eke riaa•plus ro•osoo• of th• rhlvrrb man
applied most advantageously for the church. Ile thos•
that the church would be best served by applying the own
to parochial purposes. He thought that the right ham
able gentleman proved himselt on this occasion a ow
friend of the church than the noble lord, who men
not apply them to these purposes, but to the cm
Lion of new bishoprics. The honourable gentleman de
member f.r West Somereetshire talked of the 'pentane
action of the church; but many persons out of that hem
looked upon what he meant as the spontaneous action doh
church as its spontaneous combustion. (Laughter.)
was surprised that this bill should have proceeded from
present government. He commiserated the position
noble lord ' • became, being desirous of adding the charms
of a church reformer to his other titles, he thought it *
that he would become a martyr in the City of London!
which he was a candidate. They would look there on this Id
with suspicion. (Hear.) He would not be surprised tome
bishop tacked to every new railway boil in future • for, in
the Church of England en inch and she would aka an
He would give his utmost opposition to the progress di
measure. (Hear.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE could not undimmed the *Hew
the government on the present occasion, except on the isr
position that they were eshamed of the bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had spoken.
Mr. DUNCOMBE.—Yes ; the noble lord had epobs,
but he was not the whole government. (Hear, hear.) I
arrangement had been entered into its 1838 on this satin
which the noble lord was now violating. He had no Oil
to feel angry that the people of Manchester considered ohm
selves insulted by this bill. On a former occasion Aiwa
lord was told that he was the unconscious fowl sitting ie
crocodile's egg. (Laughter.) The noble lord was now hanlig
three more new bishoprics. (Laughter.) He had received cm
munications on this subject from the working clergy. (half
ter.) [The hoe, gentleman then reed a letter from a citrons
in W ales in opposition to the bill, and characterising Amain
of injustice to appropriate so much of the church heel
such purposes, whsle he, with a parish population
had only 1301. a year, which his necessary chortle eqol
reduced to 1001., he having a wife and five children.] -11,
(Mr. Duncombe) objected to the bill, on the ground di
patronage it gave the government. They had bad paha.
enough. They bad appointed one commissioner oinfllnfli
poor-law commissioners--
Sir G. GREY: Three colliery inspectors prepseedtg Ith
(Laughter.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE proposed colliery inspeetert,lloB
they were to be protected of human life and be nag, di;
additional bishops would be of no use at all, which item
the difference. The hon. member concluded by lAN
his intention to oppose the bill at every stage.
Mr. AGLIONBY opposed the bill, and thought Intl
should not be pressed this session. The hon. gentling'.
atanced cases in his own neighbourhood, in CamiiMM
where clergymen served parishes on stipends of 701.1114_,
the tithes of the parish being received by the Din og
Chapter of Carlisle; and, instead of such persons Idol
their incomes jar:ceased out of the ecclegiastical fwd. Ng
bishoprics with large revenues were created.
cal..Medr.reaJli.c.b.,,CtOthLi.L.Einis
.dwhaditetothmake
coeunofts:irtT:wihigadrethliPe;,nowPtedneobnlebPielligroc obrdwaishhtmthadofp.orwf:rdasindsmdderl7.l)::pisiTtonsedmiwilliiiiiii
the confederate of the Bishop of London. Sock a WOO
should only have been brought forward by the piety 01'
netted with the noble lord the member for Lynn.
The house divided—For the amendment SI
Against it dr
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that the vote which theism',
had come to was disgraeehtl to a Whig &amnia.'
(" Order, order," "Chair, chair.")
thbereTuniiheuigugStrtEr,iiir:thitßoesaiuideocbtl, jthnaitmohr othtwoeeeveh.oprwer.macihht
rthremiircesemyltem leer
had done.
WhiHrg.
sdT.zaDyi.t.NCOtiMo.l3...E re.peseeteledhis
to the starving poor, and espoially to the dimintme. (411 T,
hear.) There was a twilimme &bees& doe
Roman Catholic body bad been ebeeleri by tbe peoo.
endowments for itself, semi be gibbed tabor free
lord whether the mom onee well Iberia (
iHnwe thoughtnuptad htilzehmadben. msmaloniziphig
weto
Sta:dietkv „t00,a071114,bil
ill wee
The ken. =ember esselegel by Nimbi fa
statement,T
bes Iwo Owl
the debate.
thu
oeLord...thates he
..0
(ELnNtlT"Shttnciird. itttew.uptwwithinwithe err °al
uonlardtothi.J. R.U.SSEreL.L
(Hear,
11:
badthmajeyoransihtoyopuloP:d:tg3Bouniint:tr4co, hmo:imil:l7tteerengd,wia:rohße_fguNalchsratUrlorodadMietilliPth:•tit th.10011.11.1.11111111r---1111
was be to hurry on the measure. but the hem. oris
Finsbury falling into a great passion with-th
him, and in 'quibbling and ',wave manner -7- kor
Mr. B. OSBORNE rose to order. He "L'.' agag
if it was not disorderly, even on the part of • Ow ""
to say that an hon. member had quibbled ?
The SPEAKER—Nothing irregular whale
from the noble lord. (Cheers.) w tr. oi.
Lord J. RUSSELL only wished to oho ••
which the bill was opposed, by showing that.!.,'!
bar for Finsbury, on the eve of a Fenere lb="411
as disgraceful to a liberal administration a_eril=oo
was supported by a majority of 133 to 20.
_7h:rm.
of the bill had not been spokes118•101,2"1.
government had deemed it unnesmsery ons
rr
debate. He should not oppose the motton ot.tr, dew
her for adjourning the debate ; and. only
to observe the spirit in which that motion wee tow.

After a for words from Mr. Escort and Mr. M. Pamirs,
tu debars was adjourned to this day.
BOROUGH POLICE BUPERANNUATIONS.
Mr. BUTT„ btained learn to tiring in bill for authoris.
bag a Boroug Polk* &germanium& Fund. The bon.
ameba mid be did not hope to peas the hill during the pre-
seat seeeion. His object was to Mandate it in the provinces
daring the recess.
The Muse adjourned at half-pest 12.

/USE OF LORDS.-POORBILL LAW ADMINISTRA-
TION

rmaros In tenure of the tilniikmdinirnirthe MIL and signet Lord
Dteo~has's amendment that It be read a third time that day three
FOR THE ORIGINAL MOTION.
pram. Mint° rnicorier. Foley
Bt. Albany De,on Falkland Mindy
GISNAI Suffolk tumor. kinnalrd
Nwebuck Wicklow Bt. Amph Wrottealiry
MAIKICIXES. Bemboronglit Wan&
maricazde Auckland Cottenttant &TAU
Liiiderrne Cluckmont ikagOlt NOMISfri•
Meambater raubdrougb Beaumont Churebiil
VAL& Wattlemsre Monntket Wharncliffe
OM kitatiordusge
YOE TUE AMENDMENT.

Dries. lZiti.; --
itn.;—"".
Germans plaingtilua M. mans Loyelsee ware.
ormnod StrAbrote vtworwr. Brougbau
Radnor Oatabermere
HOUSE OF COM
M
O
N
S
.
PARLIAMENTARY
ELECORS BILL.
. . .._ . . _

Decree. ea the question that C 11; sow ^ read second
sod %pima the eleendment co that cla three mouths
ere, 31; meek 31. Wtsereapon Mr. Speaker der Mose& with
the ayes.
ATM
_ _ _ . . _

=bVi. A.
DriftTtrnC7iturt,PrY' AkL
Nnaeli W.
kyydel and sar.Dunesa, 0. Jervis, Sir J. Shell.
ommonsto. T. N'Cartby, A. Scosserille, SirW.
iminersa Elm E Asada, Su D. Martin, J. SUMS, Kt fin. E.
lbsorlng. Dr. Ebrington, tolitettell, T. A. Ilsornely, T.
BeMberion. J. Ms, W. Monahan, J. IL Wakley, T.
Biwa, W. Dealt, B. Morris, D. Ward, IL 0.
pone, C. Gibe" 111.11n.T.Ogie, S. C. H. Williams, W.
paler, E. Oore, lion. B. Osborne, R. Yorke, IL R.
Dom, O. S. Gower, Hs. F. L.Parker, J.
day-, Sir W. Grosvenor, Id. R.Peabell, Capt. TiLLIMX
Cdsbrooke, Sir T.Hvms, B. Perfect, It. Bram, Sir DL.
Callett, J. sLord M. Philips, AL Hall, SD B. .
De M" W. J. HIMErI. D.
NOES.
_ . _

• CapLM.Denison. E. B. Heeliant. Lad Palmer, R.
Amain CoL Douglas, Sir C. Iloaldeworth, T. Palmer, 0.
Vise. Duckworth, SR JJermyn, Dal Patten, 3. W.
In▪
tmos, T. Do Pre, C. G. Jon., A.
Prime, R.
nsesect, W. East, Sir J. B. Le A oy, . Reid, Col.
s.Egertni, W. T. Lindniy Col. Reptoo, G. W. J
Mannar% R. Farnham, F- B. Lyre, Ito. Can. Round, J.
Bolden, H. O. Faller, A. E. Mackinnon, W. A.TroUer, J.
Beethwick, P. Gardner. J. D. Mahon, Vim. t'ill'er, Vise.
Beeleld, B. Guslail, J. M. Manners. Lord'. Waddington,ll.
lkselca, Adrn. Goring, C. Miles, W.
BraspLey 11. Hamilton, J. H. Moody, E. M.
CUM W. H. P. Hamilton, 0. A. Neeld, J. Crippe, W.
Me, Hon. LH. Hamilton, LordC.Neville, B, Newdegate, C.
Oirington,SirWllenley, J. W.
Nab 4.1034011 put—" That the bill be now rand a se and than"
Ayes, 52; Noes, 33.
AYES.
Aglionby. B.A. Denison, W. J. Hill. Lord M. Philips, M.
Abe., W. HEyneourt, C. Hindley. C. Pinney, W.
Arundel I: Sur- Divert, E. Humpbery, AM. Rich, H.
rey, Emil of Duncan, 0. Hull, W. Mail, R. L.
nor wick, P. Duncorabe, T. Jervis, Mr J. Somerville,SirW.
Douverie, Hn.E. Dunda., Sir D. M'Carthy, A. Strati, E.
Bowing, Dr. Ebrinrton, Visa Martin, J. namely, T.
Bruibertoo,l. Ellis, W. Mitchell, T. A. Wakley, T.
Brown, W. Eaton, B. Monahan, J. 11. Ward, H. G.
Mee, C. Gibac, T. M. Ogle, NC. H. Williams, W.
Vallee. E. Gore, Ills. R. Osborne, R. Yorke, FL
(by, Mr W. Gower, Hon. P. Parker, J. TiLLW.
Oisbeake, Sir T.Orcevenor, LeLß.Pechell, Capt. Evans, Sir D. L.
CAM, J. Hawes, B.
NO
Perfect, R. Hall, Slr B.
Arelsiall„Cap.M. Denison, E. B. Hamilton, Id C.Neeld, J.
Aortae, Col. Douglas Sir C. E. Henley, J. W. Neville, R.
Ilarangton,The. Duckwerth,Sir J.llothant, Lord Palmer, R.
Hamm, T. Du Pre, C.O. Ilsoldeworth, T. Palmer, G.
Bseken, W. East, Sir J. B. Jermyn, Earl Patten, J. W.
Blattstone, W. Egerton, W. T. Jones, Capt. Prime, R.
Sishemote, R. Farnham. E. It. Kelly, Sir P. Reid, Cal.
Marro, H. 0. Fuller, A. E. Leßoy, A. Renton, 0. W. J.
MUM, B. Gardner, J. D. Lindeay, Col. Round, J.
Bowies, Adm. Gs. kelt, J. M. Mackinnon, W. Trotter, J.
Bradley,H. Goring, C. Mabon, Waddington,H.
Carew, W. 11. I'. Greene, T. Manners, Lard.l. remsms.
Clive, Han. R. M.Mamiltcni, J. H. Miles, W. Crippe, W.
Cairington,SirWHansliton, G.A. Mundy, E. M. Newdegate, C.