The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-27 00:00:00

EXPRESS, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 27, 1847.

attend to the teermunendatioe of this commission. He
should also recommend the establishment of at least one
Seaman's Home. With regard to the merchant seamen's
fund, he wished to ask it the government intended to ame-
liorate the mode m which it was dealt with, as if not they
had better repeal the bill. As respected the registration of
seamen, it was said that the tickets which were given
to them did no good, but he had a letter
which showed that the system had had the effect
of decreasing the number of desertions in the merchant ser-
vice, and be thought it would he unwise, after only two
years' experience, to put an end to it. Under the Enlist-
ment Bill, in time of wier, seamen were called on to serve,
and even one who answered to the proclamation in fine
days, received double bounty ; but he objected to another
provision of cue bill, which gave a bounty at the same rinse
to all the men in actual service. He thought it would be an
improvement if the men were celled out in classes. lie
thought the government should take the present composition
of the Hoard of Admiralty into consideration, tor there
would not be so many errors in the service if the first
naval lord had not too much on his hands. lie might have
the fleets in his department, and give the dockyards to an-
ti member of the board. With regard to the manning of
ships he thought the late Admiralty deserved great credit for
sending out mt not-ear with their full complement of men and
guns. lie perceivedthatthere were 4,000 men °Teethe comple-
went, and, if they were paid off, how were the ships to be
put in MORIIIi4iIOR to be manned ? He was informed, there-
fore, that there were 4,000 men less in the estimates this
year. After apologising for detaining the house on giving
his opinion on these matters, the gallant member went on to
say that the noble lord (G. Bentieck) had said the other
night that he (Sir C. Napier) was, anywhere but on the
quarter deck, like a fish out of water. Now, the noble lord
had • quarter deck of his own at Newmarket, and when he
left it for his present position, he must have felt like a fish
out of water too. (Laughter.) The noble lord had spoken
of the Sidon. Now, she would be finished on Saturday
and if the noble lord would take a cruise with him round
the bile of Wight he should be glad to sec him, and he
would promise to give him a bottle of the best port in Eng
land. (Laughter.)
Mr. CORRY would not go at length into a reply to the
speech of the lion. and gallant member, for he had made the
same objections half-a-dozen time', and they had been replied
to as often. There was one point, in which the conduct of
the late board of admiralty was invoiced, on which he must
observe. He alluded to the extensive experiments which had
been said to have been made in iron ships of war. It was an
important national question, inasmuch as the greatest portion
of the timber of which our ships were built was of Minus
growth ; and it was important, if possible, to iron, one of
our own productions, fur the purpose, particularly as in ease
of • sudden necessity it was impossible for the dockyards to
supply a sufficient quantity of timber. The hon. and gallant
member said that there were 33 of these iron ships, but
those ordered by the late Admiralty on amounted to 24.
It was fully proved that iron was well ad*pted for the con-
struction of vessels for ordinary purposes. He had
• communication on the subject from an iron ship-
builder who had built 250 of these vessels and
it was not likely that that would be the case,
unless they were found to be valuable, at least for ordi-
nary purposes. The Great Britain, which had been exposed
for months on the shore at Dundrum without injury to
her frame, was a proof of it. In the 24 vessels ordered by
the late Admiralty, six were of the Bloodhound claws, and
were not intended for men-of-war; three were intended for
packets for the lonian Island', one was her Majesty's steam-
yacht, and another, the Dwarf, was an experimental screw
steamer; and of the whole 24, levee only were intended fen
war-ships; two of these, the Lynx and the Sharpshooter,
were of small size; and the Birkenhead and four other steam
frigates were the only ones of importance ; and therefore the
responsibility of the lee Admiralty with regard to iron
vessels of war was limited to these seven. The hon. and
idlest member said that they had never been tried, so as to
know the effect of shot upon them, but the Nemesis, an iron
steamer, had been employed ia the China war, and
a Mexican ship of war, the Guadeloupe, commaaed by en
English officer, Capt. Charleville, had been tried also. As
to the experiment of an iron steamer under the guns of the
Excellent, that was one which was only intended originally
for carrying shipwrights from port to port, and was of so
slight a construction that it could not be considered a con-
clusive experiment. lie had letters from Capt. Hall, of the
Nemesis, and from Capt. Charleville, of the Mexican ship,
the Guadeloupe. Capt. Hall said that the Nemesis had
been struck by shot fourteen times in one action, and "only
one pseud through the vessel, and it made asmall clean hole;
another only made an indentation, and there were no splinters.
The Nemesis had had holes made in her bottom by rocks,
which were easily stopped by plugs of wood, and, in short,
he gave the preference to iron ships of war over wooden ones.
Captain Charleville, of the Guadeloupe, in the Mexican ser-
vice, in like manner wrote, " my opinion is as strong as ever
in finny of iron ships, provided the vessel is properly built
and I should prefer commanding an iron steamer to • wooden
one." He (Mx. Corry) thought the opinions of two such
officers of experience as Capt. Hall and Capt. Charleville
were entitled at least to es much consideration as that of the
hon. and gallant adm:rsl (Napier) who had not had any ex-
perience on board such vessels. (Hear, hear.) At the same
time he quite concurred with the hon. and gallant member
that the admiralty oughtnot to go further in building iron
steam ships until they had been still farther tested. Such had
been the determination of the late board, and he hoped their
successors would adopt the same course. Whatever might be
the results of the tests which would still be applied, and
even if it should turn out that iron was not in all respect* a
desirable material to use, still the vessels which had been
built would be a great acquisition to the service in being
employed in the conveyance of troops. With respect to
schooners, seventeen only had been constructed, and in one
of them (the Mulatto, as we understood). the screw principle
had been fully anti successfully tested; and with respect to
the block ships, or steam inar•d ships, so much condemned
by the hon. and gallant admiral, he could only say that they
had been adopted for the defence of the dockyards on the
recommendation contained in the report of distinguished
naval and military officers. He should not further detain
the house, but he felt thus much to be due in justification of
the late Board of Admiralty.
Admiral DUNDAS thought that the attack of his hon.
and gallant friend opposite (Sir C. Napier) upon the Board
of Admiralty, with reference to the recent promotions, was
most unjust. He (Admiral Dundee) held in his head a
comparative state of the navy in 1816 and 1816, sad he found
that not leas than 1,4.54 officers had died within that period.
To have done full justice to most meritorious officers, the
recent promotions ought to have been double the number.
Capt. HARRIS said he had often before expressed to the
house his conviction that the armaments of the ships in the
British navy were wholly insufficient for war purposes,
as had been proved over and over again, by the experiments
made on board the Excellent He hoped some alteration
would be made, and our ships of war equipped in a
manner better fitted to meet an enemy than wee
the case at present.
Mr. HUME said that he so far concurred with the bee.
and gallant admiral (Sir C. Napier), that, did he not know
that the present Board of Admiralty was devising means to
put a stop to the enters upon which shipbuilding wee car-
ried on in the dockyards, he (Mr. Hume) should bring for-
ward a motion on the subject. At present the ship-building
for the public service was conducted on worse principles in
this country than in any other country in the world. ,
There had not been any ship built, even for special
purposes, that had answered any of those pur-
poses ; and there had been in the dockyards
a waste of materials and of expenditure and labour in short-
ening or lengthening, or cutting down the vessels then
built quite equal to that stated by his hon. and gallant
friend (Sir C. Napier). He (Mr. Hume) never saw the
right hon. baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) pr sent on the
occasion of the Navy Estimates being brought on, that he
did not feel that the right hon. baronet, when at the head of
the admiralty in 1832, had struck the greatest blow that the
improvement of the naval architecture of this country me
received. Instead of following tho Earl St. Vincent, who
for twenty-four years had taken the trouble of turning the
attention of men of ability and science to the subject of
naval architecture, and had laid the foundation of a college
for the advancement of that science, the right hon.'
baronet, in 1832, has cleared all away and returned
to the system of ship-building by the " Rule of
Thumb," just as it had been practised before.
The motion was then agreed to, and the house went into
a committee of supply—Mr. GREENE in the chair.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. WARD then rose and said he could not but feel
that be had a difficult duty to perform to-night in laying
the navy estimates for the ensuing year before the
house,—first, on account of the largeness of the expenditure,
and secondly, from the great variety of matters over which
that expenditure was distributed, and of which he wished to
give a clear and intelligible account to the house. The gems
estimate for the year exceeded
net, the estimate pro-
posed for the last year, and the vote would exceed that
of last year to a Mill greater amount, because the credits in
aid (which were a sort of running account, from year to
year) amounted this year to 175,0001., while last year they
were 190,0001. So that the apparent excess was 77,0001.
more than the money required to be voted last year. Now,
be (Mr. Ward) perfectly agreed with the observations
made the other eight by his right hon. friends, the mem-
bers for Portsmouth and Coventry (Messrs. T. F. Baring
and Ellice) upon the financial statement of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, when they impressed upon the house that
nothing was so deserving the watchfulness of parliament as
this perpetual tendency of estimates to increase. (Hear.)
They referred the house, as a standard, to the estimate. for
the year 1834-5, when the nayy estimates were only
4,24.5,0001., but he (Mr. Ward) might ask the house to go
still further back, and to refer to the year 1817, when the
number of seamen and marines voted was only 19,000
in all. His right honourable friends did not do
that, because their own common sense told them that
which was the justification of the present government *for
the vote they were about to propose, namely, that no country
could fix the standard of its own expenditure with reference
to that of other countries. It was clear that all power was
relevant—that it was matter of comparison—it was power
only when met by power greater than itself, and, therefore,
that which might have been an ample provision 20 years ago,
after a war which had borne hardly upon every continental
power, but from which the country bad escaped, might be
wholly inadequate for the defence of the country now that
other nations bad had 20 years of peace during which
to develop° their own resources, and to bring them
asp to the level of the resource. of this, country.
When he said inadequate, he meant so strictly for the pur-
poses of national defence, not for purposes of aggrandisement
of any kind. He estimated the blessings of peace as much
as any man in the country ; but he was perfectly sure that
the only way of preserving those blessings was to be in a po-
sition to defy attack. (Hear, hear.) We must keep up the
Beet stay of our national importance, as • security for peace
with other powers; and this consideration was sufficient com-
pletely to justify the vote he was about to ask. He had to
, show, ui the firs-Instance what the increase really was in
the Davy estimates ; whit poet of tho wool to be voted

yards ; and about 4,000 had already entered at Deptford,
Sheerness, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and
nav
y
had been considered ; bat it was imporaihle to
make any increase in the present year ; I.e hoped to see it
done before long, believing it would be the last preventive
of offences. With regard to the marines, a bill would be in-
troduced by the right hon. the Secretary-at-War, for limiting
enlistment in the army to one year ; and it would be difficult
not to give the marines the benefit of that: it was the wish
of government to place them on the same footing as the
army. A bill would also be brought for eqablishing second-
ary
punishments in the army, on a system precisely similar
to that which had worked so admirably in the army. An-
other bill would be brought in to legalise the apprenticeship of
boys for seven years,thus introducing anew systemof training
They had also endeavoured to get rid of the system of break-
ing
up the crews of ships at thi ir first lending, by giving
them six weeks leave, with pay during that time provided
they kept their names upon the hooks, and by providing
facilities for tho deposit of their kits and clothing. At pre-
sent this plan was new to the men, but he trusted and be-
lieved that as they became used to it it would work well.
Now the next point to which he had to refer, war a new sys-
tem they were striving to introduce with a view to better
inspection in dockyard'. These improvements would cost
5,0001. ; but when the house remembered that the salariee
and wages in the yards had averaged 810,6641. for the last
ten years, andthat this item was perpetually increasing, and
when they considered, also, that stores of more thou a
million in value were annually consumed in these yards, and
that the other charges of the yards.arnounted to upwards of
a million more, they could not fail to see that this question
of dockyard superintendence was well worthy their attention.
Indeed the necessity for that superintendence became more
evident when they reflected on the increase which would be
occasioned in thig department of the public eervice. At the
present time France could repair her steamers in case of
accident at Brest, Cherbourg, L'Orieet, Toulon, or Rochfort,
whilst we had only one dockyard, Woolwich, at which say
repairs of steam vessels could be effected. It wan this con-
sideration which had led the government of the right hon.
baronet to commence the extensive works now in progress,
and an they increased there would obviously be some necessity
for vigilant inspection. The only way in which that vigilance
could be obtained woe, as it seemed to him, by adding to the
personal inducements of those emyloyed. Hitherto no emu-
lation had been excited in our dockyards. Promotion there
woe a lottery. It was a thing canvassed for, not earned; and
it was a well known saying that a ten pound house wen •
better recommendation for dockyard promotion than the
highest merit, skill or character. (Hear, bear, hear.)
Never did a vacancy occur in a dockyard without
its being canvassed for by lords, ladies, clergy,
mayors of towns, and a heat of others equally ill-qualified
to judge of the fitness of the candidate; and if the house
wanted to know the influence they had exercised, and the
way patronage had been abused, they might judge of it
from the fact that, for the last 50 years, no outgoing SCRIM
Lary of the Admiralty had left behind him a single record of
the principles or recommendations upon which his promo-
lions bad been based. (Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Ward)
did say, that such a system an this was a demoralizing sys-
tem. As a natural consequence, it occasioned a feeling of
apathy in the yards, which was felt to be a great hin-
drance to all exertion. Feeling, therefore, that the exceeds"
of this patronage wan at the root of the evil, the Admiralty
had resolved at once to sacrifice it. They proposed, is
future, that the patronage should be employed under an
educational test. They would, first of all, have the schools
for apprentices in dock-yards put upon a superior footing,
requiring school certificates of goodeonduct, in order to obtain
admittance to the yard, and selecting the most qualified youth.
for advancement as draughtemen. They intended also to in-
troduce a system of weekly returns in the yards, making the
head men of each gang report weekly as to the conduct of
the people under them, and tarrying the returns from one
superior officer to another, until at last it came to the
muter shipwright, by whom a quarterly table would be sub-
mitted to the Admiralty. Whenever a man wan recom-
mended for promotion, it was intended by the Admiralty
that the whole of the returns thus made should be laid before
them, in order to enable them to judge of his capabilities
and conduct. It was further intended that of all candidates
for such promotion, the three standing best upon the lists
should be selected, and from that number two should be
nominated by the master shipwright to the Admiralty, in
whom the final selection should be vested. lie thought this
was a measure which would give great satisfaction. He ought
also to state that it wan intended to raise the salaries of the
inspectors from 1001. a year to 125/. a year at once,
and that next year a "first clans" of inspectors
would be formed, consisting of one fourth of the
present number of inspectors of each yard. All these
plans, he should mention, had been submitted to the admi-
rals now or lately at [la, head of the different dockyards., and
had received their cordial approbation. (Hear, hear.) So
much, then, for what they had done towards systematizing
the navy of the country. Ile had now to allude to the de-
tails of expenditure under the several votes. The first we.
an increase of 31,0001 ,which would provide for the increased
number of seamen and marines of which he bad already
spoken. In No. 3 there was an increase of 7,3401. for
salaries, ific. in the admiralty offices. This sum would pro-
vide for the augmentation or the steam department, for an
increase in the salaries of clerks, and for an increase of 2,0001.
in protege expenses. In No. 6 there was an increase of
7,2911., which would provide for the payments of salaries to
the engineers in the different yards. An increase of
58,8771., under No. 8, would provide for the wages of a
larger number of artificers, &c. ; 20,000/. of this money
would be spent in training artificers at home; 3,0001. fur
the establishment of the metal mills at Chatham, which,
when they were at work, would save the country 6,000/.
leyear ; 10.000!. for the wages of artificers in the steam fae-
tore at Woolwich ; and 6,0001. for the steam factory at
Portsmouth. Under No. 10 there would be a decrease
of 89,0001., mainly arising from so much steam machinery and
so many iron steam vessels not being required next year utast.
' Under No. 11. there was an apparent increase of 32,790!.
for new works ; but this amount wan in • measure made up
of sums which, in former years, had been voted under heads
Ito which they did not properly belong. lie might observe
that the new works in our ports, both at home and abroad,
wore in satisfactory progress, so hat, in a few years, there
would be comparatively no outlay required under this head.
In the article of iron-steamers there would be a re-
duction of 70,0001. or 80,0001. ; in all probability he
'loped also for a reduction in the article stores, and there
would be a great reduction in the cost of repair-., owi•ir to
the more efficient system introduced into onr yards. In con-
elusion, the right hon. gentlemen said there was the utmost
disposition on the part of the government to keep the
expos= in this, as in every other department, as low as wan
eeacieteat with the safety, honour, and dignity of the
country. (Hear, hear.)
On the first vote being proposed that the sum of 1,32.5,8201.
be granted to defrsy the wages of seamen and marines for
the years 1847-8,
Admiral BOWLES expressed his general approbation of
the improvements proposed to be made in the administration
of the navy.
Captain PECHELL cordially welcomed the improve-
ments so ably announced by his lion. friend. He should
have been glad to have found among them a regulation for
properly strengthening oar squadron off the coast of Africa,
for while we kept any squadron there at all, it ought to be in
a thoroughly effective state. lie regretted that no mention
wan made am increase in the half-pay of masters and pursers,
and complained of the delay in launching the Tench built by
Mr. Whits, particularly that which was celled the Termagant.
Competition in ship-building, under certain restrictions,
ought to be encouraged, as far as wan practicable.
(Hear, hear.)
Dr. BOWRINO must acknowledge that he saw great im-
provements ea compared with those of former years in the
estimates, but complained that the accounts of receipt and
expenditure were not kept 'separate. There was one put
improvement here, however, and that was, that the mast
were not prospective estimates, but all were vouched by
receipts.
Capt. FITZROY wished to know what was the use of
taking a vote for 27,500 seamen, when 4,500 more were
borne on the books. It was utterly impossible to have the
number reduced, but still he thought there should be more I
accordance between the vote and the actual number. In the
dock-yards, also, there was great room for improvement.
Mr. WARD said that that subject was under the ear&
deration of the Admiralty.
Capt. BERKELEY said that the 4,500 seamen alluded to
by the hon. and gallant member were required by the
state of affairs in China, New Zealand, and the Tagus.
He was surprised to hear the hon. and gallant member
complain, seeing that he wan one of that board which had
sent our fleet to the Tagus, manned with marines. Since
then the boys enlisted under a late order had been sent
out, and so efficient had they proved, that Admiral
Parker had written home for permindon to rate them as
ordinary seamen. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARD said that arrangements were in progress by
which steamers could be loaded with coal at the rate of
100 tons per hour, instead of 100 tons per day, se at
present.
Sir J. GRAHAM aid, that when he was in office, the
great object he had in view was, as farce possible, to di.
minish the naval estimates when it could be done without
injury to the national service. (Hear.) He viewed with
great regret the present increase in the estimates, and had
heard with alarm the statement of the Secretary for the
Admiralty, that notwithstanding their progressive increase,
they were not so lug* as the interests of the country re-
quired. He should not have risen but for the introduction
of one topic of extreme delicacy, one which he should not
have ventured to allude to but for his perfect freedom from
official responsi, ility. He meant the pay of the men in the
naval service. (Hear, hear.) The Secretary of the Admi-
ralty hod stated that it would be desirable to have the pay
of the naval service approximate more nearly to that in the
merchant service. He (Sir J. Graham) believed that if
once the Queen's service was brought into competition with
the merchant service, every rise is the latter would cause
increased expence to the country. (Hear, hem.) It would, in
fact, create a necessity for altering the arrangements in the
whole military and naval service of the country. (Hear.)
lie. WARD aid he never meant to moot the subject to
which the eight hat. geotimanrdened; and if he used any
axpresions which elaveyol on ides that he did so, nothing
was farther frees his nonaties.
Sir C. NAPIER maid be we. sorry to hear whet fMI rem
the hon. gentleman, beano he was of that the sea-
men in the navy WOWS net sedleistay
Mr. q. HERBERT esti he Aid net llisee the pay in the
navy wan lower than be the ---sent seeks, 1
_they tech
into consideration the mules whisk was Awed to the
men in the naval service, and the peke of ekes.
Mr. M. GORE hoped whatever party wee in 'weer, that
the interests of the navy would sot be
Mr. F. T. BARING WS/ sure no eimagt4 Courier
would refuse the supplies necessary to keep** navy in a
proper state, but partook of the anxiety of the right hon.
baronet at the increased expenditure in the several depart-
ments of the pnblic service. He regretted that the 'reek of
his hon. friend the Secretary of the Navy did net pre any'