The Express.
London, England, 1848-03-24 00:00:00

mutation of game (hear, hear); but to the remedy of the
hon. gentleman he did not think the hones ought to assent,
because it would not remove those evils. He thought that
the hon. gentleman would have submitted $Olll9 plan which
would have enabled him (Sir G. Grey) to consent to the in-
troduction of his bill with • vie w to discus-
sion at • future stage. But having clearly and
fully stated the nature of the measure he ounceived that the
house was in • position to pronounce upon it at
once. The hon. gentleman had connected all the evils which
he had so well portrayed with the operation of the game
1 laws, altogether overlooking the fact that many of those
I evils arms from the accumulation of game. He quite con-
curred in his denunciation of the practice of publicly an-
nouncing as a matter of commendation the enormous quan-
whic(hcirtivoier
.a.thaard.,b;reonmans tpoakrtsill
of
fithtiiine
tiahtoyguEfe4n time.
iwa.
glad to find that that practice was so gene-
rally discountenanced by that house. The hon. gentleman
asked for the total repeal of the game laws on account of the
injury they did to the tenants and the crops. There was
be believed, no doubt, that great injury was done to crops,
especially by hares ; but he could not go the length of ad.
mining that that injury alleged by the hon. gentleman ex-
tended to the stock of food in the country. The real evil
and injury was that this game which was used as food by
one man should be maintained out of the property of another.
(Hear, hear.) But vow net that the consequence of agree-
ments between landlord and tenant rather than of the law i
And agreerneats between landlord and tenant regarding the
mode of cultivation, the ploughing up pus land, or the re-
gulating of game, parliament had never yet touched, and
any attempt to do so would he absolutely futile. (Hear.)
He hoped the time was not far distant when the farmers
would make such agresments with their landlords as would
protect them on the best terms. But the most important
part of the question was that which affected the morals of
the people, arising from poaching and other crimes, said to
originate in the existing game laws. The hon. member
(Mr. Bright) has stated, that in this respect, for years past,
matters hail been becoming worse—that the number of con-
victions and consequent demoralisation was on the yearly in.
creme. His (Sir G. Grey's) information on the subject,
however, did not lead him to the same conclusion. Though
the offence arising Flom the unlawful pursuit of game were
frequent, yet there had been a diminution in their number,
arising from the discussions which had taken place on the
subject in and out of the house, and which had induced the
public to look more into the subject. But speak-
mg of the number of convictions, the hon. mem-
ber for Manchester had not adverted to the die-
tinction between the convictions under the game
laws and the violent cases of assault, manslaughter,
and murder, arising from poaching conflicts. Under the
statute 1 and 2 Will. IV. c. 102, for offences strictly under
the game laws, no sentence of transportation could be pared;
but the act 9 Geo. IV. c. 69, commonly called the Night
Poaching Act, mado any person under the moat serious class
of convictions liable to transportation. Now, from the dam
of the report ot the select committee of 1846, there had not
been a single person sentenced to transportation under that
statute until 1847, when three persons, who, while in the
unlawful pursuit of game, had committed acts of violence,
had been so sentenced, though in the preceding periods the
number had been much greater. With respect to summary
convictions, the last return won that of 1845, which showed
the number for that year to have been 2,796, which was be-
tween 1,500 and 1,600 less than that of the year preceding;
and in 1847 there had only been 48 convictions of any kind
in England and Wales beyond that of the three men sen-
tenced to transportation, to whom he had already alluded.
While he (Sir G. Grey) should cheerfully give
his best attention to any attempt to remedy and
diminish existing evils, he most say he thought
the bill now proposed would utterly fail to accom-
plish that object. The bill proposed absolutely to repeal the
Night Poacbieg Act and the statutes 18; 2 Will. IV. It
did not meddle with the law of trespass, and, in effect, it
would offer a direct premium to crime, and would create still
greater evils than any that had arisen under the existing law.
Ile wished the hon. member hail made a mote moderate pro
penal ; but he (Sir 0. Grey) was new ready to give his best
attention to the subject, and to pledge himself that at no dis-
tant day a Mil should be introduced (which, perhaps, ought
to have been done before), founded upon the report of the
select committee of 1816. (Hear, hear.) With respect to
the loos of life in conflicts wish poachers, he must remark
that there prevailed a deep feeling among a large portion of
the population, who regarded poaching notas a moral crime,
but who alai looked upon murder committed while poaching
as not amounting to a crime. He was sure the hon. mem-
ber for Manchester was the last man who would encourage
that feeling, but would lend his iutluence to show that persons
who deliberately committed murder while in the
pursuit of game were liable to the punishment
awarded to that offence. In some cases the juries
had properly pronounced verdicts of manslaughter, but
at present there were two men under sentence of death
at Durham for a murder committed on the estate of the
Duke of Cleveland. That case had occupied his (Sir G.
Grey's) most serious attention in the most painful duty that
could occur to a person in his poeition. His anxious care
was to do his duty, and not to shrink from it ; and that
while the law remained as it was, not to proclaim to the
world that because a man took the life of another while
poaching. he could not be subject to the punishment allotted
to the crime of murder. (Hear, hear.) He assured the hon.
member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) that he opposed the
introduction of this bill, not from any want of respect for
the hon. member's motives, but because he thought the re-
=dies he proposed would be utterly unavailing, would in-
troduce greater evils than any now in existence, and would
not be productive of the successful results which the hon.
member seemed to expect. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that allusion had been made
to a case in Hampshire affecting a gentleman with whom
he was connected. He could appeal to many hon. mem-
bers whether that gentleman did not deservedly enjoy the
highest reputation as an excellent landlord. He (Mr. B.
Cochrane) did not entirely agree in all that had fallen from
the right hon. baronet opposite (Sir 0. Grey), hut he
thought the present motion a most injudicious one, and he
viewed it as another blow aimed most maliciously at one
class of the community—the landed proprietors.
Mr. W. P. WOOD rose amidst loud cries of "divide."
The hon. and learned member said he felt so strongly on
this question that he was determined to express his senti•
ments, even if, in order to do so, he should be com-
pelled to more the adjournment of the debate. He
had listened with great anxiety to the speech
of the right hon. baronet at the head of the
Home INpartment, and he had hoped to have
heard him propose • remedy. The grievance had Laken a
deeper root than the report of 1846 contemplated, and the
evil was that no class of the community, not even the
game preservers, could be superinduced to believe that there
was any malum in se in the course of poaching—on the
contrary, it was merely regarded as a realism prolsibitum.
How could men consider poaching as an evil when it had
been proved before the committee of 18t6 by one witness
that he was in the habit of continually supplying peers,
meunmbers of
with parliament, clerame
and gymen, and
with tee Beggs which
had been obtained improperly and illegally ? Such
being the case, how could the poacher believe himself
morally guilty.? (Hear.) The legislature could not make
property of anneals which were wild by nature. There was
a strong feeling in all classes of society for this particular
amusement ; and in the attempts to quell that feeling de-
moralisation had arisen. (Hear, hear.) Blackstone had
described the game laws as a banter I offshoot of the old
forest laws, founded on the same unreasonable ground.
There was not a city feast on the 29th September where
they had not pheasants on the table, though they could not
legally be killed till the Ist of October. (Hear, hear.) As
to the administration of this branch of the law by the magis-
trates, there was no confidence in it whatever. The late '
Mr. Kenyon, of Gloucester, never would sit on a game case,
because he felt that he could not dojustice. Many othersmight
ibe equally Wined without knowing it. When a person was
I once charged under the game laws he became a marked
man. A boy at Woodbridge, in Suffolk, having been blamed
I for destroying pheasants eggs, an order was given to the
farmers generally not to employ him. (Hear.) It had been
said that if the game laws were abolished the gentry would
leave the country. This he could not believe, for he was con-
vinced they had higher objects. An objection had been made
to the bill that it did not provide against trespass. It was
no part of the measure to do this ; hut nothing would be
more easy than to bring in a bill specially directed to that
object. He would have the trespass lawn entirely discon-
nected with the game laws. (Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEOATE (amidst cries of "oh," and
"divide ") said that the game laws could only be abro-
gated by enacting a trespass law, which would be more
oppressive.
Sir H.VERNEY said that • change of the game.laws was
the only important benefit that the legislature could center
on the agricultural interest.
Mr. G. THOMPSON moved the adjournment of the
debate.
Sir G. GREY hoped the house would consent to a divi-
sion. He did not know when the debate could be resumed.
Mr. BRIGHT said he knew that several hon. members
yet wished to speak.
After a conversation the house divided on the question of
adjournment.
Ayes B2
Noes B7--5

Dr. BOWRING said it would be most unfair to press a
division on the main question, seeing that several hon. gen-
tlemen were desirous of addressing the house upon it, and
that so large a minority had declared in favour of the ad-
urnment of the debate ; be would therefore move that the
hhouse do now'adjourn.
The SPRAYER put the question, which was carried, the
whole of the country party joining with the ayes, to the evi-
dent astonishment of Dr. Bowssng, whose confusion while Mr.
Bright appeared to be explaining to him that the effect of kis
amendment had been to make a dropped order of the mo-
tion, which, to be again placed on the paper, would require
a new motion, elicited • hearty laugh from the opposition as
well as the members of the government.
The house accordingly stood adjourned at twenty minutes
to one o'clock.

ELECTION COMMITTEES.—YESTERDAIT.
HORSHAM.—The committee terminated its labours
by resolving that John Jervis, Esq., was not duly elected
and that the late election for the borough wee null and void.

GENERAL COMMITTEE OF ELECTIONS.
The following committees were struck yesterday:
SLIGO.—Mr. T. C. Granger (chairman), Messrs.
Disraeli, P. Swope, J. Haywood, Sir J. Johnston.
RYE.—Mr. E. Divett (chairman), Sir H. Raiford,
Yalta. J. H. Virian, Hon. F. Charters, IL. J. Blake.

PARLIAMENTARY PAP4'ES.
HOUSE OF COMMONS. (191.)—Woons AND
FOl/88T6.—This return of the income and expenditure of
fifteen of the royal forests will enable our readers to judge
of their value to the nation :
Ineome. Expenditure.
f s. d. 4: .. d.
New Forest
t edee aso 17 10
New Park
th
Parkhurst Forest 413 8 9 925 13
Dees Forest 15,130 1G 1 10,907 5 5
Higiuseadow Words 4,261 0 1,727 16 10
Here Forest
Delaraere Posed 4,706 16 1 2,651 10 14
Whittletrood Forest
Rahn Pored
Whicbwood Forest 426 8 1 303 7 4
Ilsiosult or Waltham Fong 896 13 504 3 1
Alice Dolt Forest. ........
Woolmer Ferret 1,150 8 1500 0 •
DMus Woods ......... -- 0 0 243 7 S
Chopwsil Woods 663 16 1 413 15 41

44,245 13 104 35,838 7

the erpreoo.

MAILS.

The mails for Vigo, Oporto, 21;17fCc,Thiladoira, Cadir, ,and Gibraltsz
will be made up .41 the morning of the 27th March.
The Wart India Mello, Including Ikrmuda,Matl, Maven
Honduras, New Orlean*, Vera Cruc, Tamp.), and Porto Biro, and
excluding there for Madeira, Januel, Carthagroa, aonta Martha.
Chaim*, Panama, Went Coast at SOUll! AI 't. Jumude-
Niearamia, will be made up on the morning of the 27th March.
The mails for New South Wider, Can Gieman's Land, and NeW
Zealand will be made up oh the evening of the 31st March.
The muds for the Wont f.'oriet of Africa and Madeira will be made
up on the evening of the Slot March.
The overland mails for Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, the lonise Is/ands,
Egrpt, Aden, Cl4lon, India, Hong-Kong, and China, via Soutbarep.
ton, will be made up on the morning of the 3rd April.
The mails far the Brazils, the River Plate, Monte Video, Perna,
buso, Bahia, Madeira, and Buenos Ayres, will be made cap on the
evening of the 4th April.
The overland clured rim Marseilles, to the Me litemneen,
Egypt, Aden, Oryloe, India, liong.Kong, ace., will he made up on the
evening of the 24th Mini.
The mails
be
British North America, Bermuda, and the Ended
States, wall be made up en the evening of the 21t4 Apnl.