The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-06 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS—FRIDAY, F. b.
The Sosexis took the choir shortly before four o'clock.

PRIVATE Buspaes..

lamemeisis; Ira Wi
011".

7;aT.Thedwd Ra.lMl.ray; La

gni Sp& lyabs Inaide ?Away

aad Aug Ferry; Meet Imam awl M awl Iced,*
briestas, sad Soma orair Railings Aaaelposike; DMll4&ft Rec-
tory &video ; Olewpow, Airdrie; awl lisakkaida Jamaica Railway
(Coyish*, Oarnyie, Cashed Jumada; sad Caplaw-Idll Brandies,
ad Mastraiwairert busbies); Obarow, AuNirle, an Rook-
hada J. Railway Marlin Breach) ; Oleagow, Bus-
lay, itilaismak, sad Ayr Railway, ad Araks and
el Weir BillerazZo.;. Dandifsi, wad Calirria&
Rawl, sod owl Ayr Rad-
atsjaaatior, serja.Areneeralleaprewirayse imaitl7,:
amilkelbareslura Sanwa, (warm at lir Bret at Wee-
nier's bleirat latiollesphrber ANdiabus
gawk Liimelawl Lameweas lemalllallwag; Um sod 11yRal)way
i=w-R liiallel •bra R.li=„(aaa
ez-
Llaselaihtteriely 1/1181111.
tale (1a ad wed Harsiales rod bit imam
Breairs); Nabob; its ftivw pula TWOS
to tbe Saws, war vill • kiosk le WO.
weethaValunt Raw Olvadmi.
and ; aranall raw.LOWSktiala.:rl
=4 I Was Aaelilaid, awl W
Rand" sod Wear sad Dement Railways, art
Ardpirrice
PUBLIC BUSLNEBII. _ _

nennower,ft 14:16;r7- fiat- eh oily st ImAaa,
Wear et as of sopftel im.mia—W. O. Damn km
a ram abs,
la wow Os par rasseal while. J. Mimi MN
the d et Loa*" kr Os of pt
dols. mod kin edi ingsmaom er Limit ir Vis sholleakA at
inbaftre imerp—mr. maws Mr es beviiint
Med 11 pun% etretral et =Now riot 1,11.11=
maim. raked ben animal by piar.bat eurals. I
Ekes% ma kr Mist; frolaiiiMadl. lab awl smell Ow I

places In favonr of the ten hooks' PC111A1•111 hum Omni.
wood ageing the poor removal net—Mr. V. Bursar from Northamp-
ton for an alteration in the lunatic aiDituns act from the Oranstone
Duke spina the poor removal sil.—fle. ErwaLL from Moekbridge
the kw of settlemint act. —Captain PscriELL from shipowners
lajn'ArLdel for abolition 01 light dues ; from Brighton in favour
of the claims of tba Rajah of &tiara ; from a lady, the repro-
ketatim of a lieutenant In the navy, who had diod in a
Meath asylum, eldraing ids half y, which had been withheld
for pgkea ram; Irma WskehoY, far the repeal of the duty
on tea.—Lord KAN,EIO4, from Mr. Stidolph, profc.4or of
eduraPon for the blind, !Willi; that three were between twenty and
thirty thousand blind pet cnts in the kingdom, and that the means of
education existed only for two thousand, and praying the govern-
ment either to take them coder their protection, or grant a sum of
money towards their maintenance and education; from the distillers
of the south.cast district o; Scotland, against the reduction of the duty
on rum. —Mr. Airkwonni, from Bolton, in favour of the Ten Hours'
Hill.—Mr. S. CRAWNIID, from the guardians of the Drogheda
Union for elteratknot law of ejectment, and remuneration to tenants
for outlay.—Mr. Wool:Bono, from Norfolk, against the Poor Re-
mand Act.—Mr. Hoar, f, tiro Forfar' against the reduction of the
duty on rum.—Mr. R. PAL 4104 from guardians of Abingdon Union
ag-ainet the Law of Settler int Act.
REPORT.—Destltutc Persom Ireland) Adenoma Bill,
NEW MEMBEItS. . .

Lord Robert °reeve or who was introduced by Sir W.
Clay and Lord Marcus Hill, took the oaths and his seat for
Middlesex, in the room of the late G. Byng, Esq.. deemed. ,
Earl Grosvenor, who was introduced by Mr. P. Egerton
and the hon. E. Lame les, took the oaths and his seat for
Chester, in the room of Lord Robert Grosvenor, who had
accepted the ehiltern hundreds.
DETENTION OF CORN AT ANCONA.
Dr. BOWRING begged to call the attention of Lord
Palmerston to the detention of corn and moire in
the port of Ancona, bought for English account, and
intended to be shipped for this country, and to inquire what
measures had been taken in consequence ?
Lord PALMERSTON had had several representations as
to the matter, and to-day had received a deputation from the
City of London on the subject. Inconsequence of the former
representations be had issued instructions on the ?2nd January
to the British minister at Florence to remonstrate with the
Roman government. He believed the interdict arose from
the local authorities at Ancona, and not from tbe Pope, and that
it applied not to corn (mining from other parts of the world
and deposited there, but merely to corn the produce of the
Roman states purchased on English account. The hon.
member and the house night be assured that he should en-
deavour to persuade the l.oman government to exempt from
that order all corn intended for this country.
HIGHFLYER'S BOAT.—RED SEA.
Dr. BOWRING believed the noble lord was acquainted
with the fact that a boat's crew belonging to the Big httyer had
been abandoned on an Wand on the crust of Abjssinia, and
the boat contained a crew of four persons, and amongst them
a young man in the service of the Peninsular and Oriental
Steam Navigation Company. It was suspected that the boat
was lost, hut there was al.o a supposition that the crew had
been taken by a savage tribe, and conducted into the interior
of Africa. lie wished to know whether the noble lord had
received any information on the subject ?
Lord PALMERSTON said the matter had been brought
to his notice by the father of one of the officers, and he had
muted inquiry to be made by the British Consul-General in
Egypt. He had, however, since received a report from the
India-house, containing a very circumstantial detail of an
inquiry made by their rolitleal agent at Aden, who had
sent an expedition to inquire into the matter on the spot,
and, after examining the island where the parties were
landed, and several other adjacent islands, they were satis-
fied that the boat's crew had not been taken prisoners r; but
had reason to fear that in starting front the island they
had been driven out to sea, and the boat had founeered.
MEDALS TO THI: PENINSULAR ARMY.
Sir A. L. HAY wished to know what steps had been
taken to carry into effect her Majesty's gracious intention
of granting medals to the officers of the Peninsular army
Mr. F. MAULE said, the details had been found some-
what difficult, but be could assure his hon. friend, and the
bouts, that no unnecessary time should be lost.
FOREIGN DFITY ON HERRINGS.
Sir A. L. HAY wished to know whether there had been
sny correspondence between the British government and
the governments of Belgium, Russia, and other countries,
on the subject of the duty imposed on herrings exported
from Great Britain and if so, the result ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that several recommendations
had been made to him on the subject from Scotland, and
instructions had been given to our ministers abroad to en-
deavour to obtain some modification of the tariff of certain
foreign governments, with regard to herrings exported from
this country ; but, of course, each country claimed a right
to regulate its own tariff according to its own interests, real
or supposed.
DETENTION OF THE BLACK CAT SCHOONER.
Mr. M UNTZ would be glad to know the act of parliament
under the authority of which the English schooner, Black
Cat, had been detained in the river, and all explanation from
the Customs' refused, for the last fourteen days.
Lord PALMERSTON a.tid the Black Cat—(laughter)—
was detained by the Customs in consequence of an applica-
tion made by the Portuguese minister, who represented that
she was laden with military stores intended for purposes of
hostility on the coast of Portugal in contravention of the
Foreign Enlistment Act. The Treasury and the Board of
Customs had taken such steps as their legal advisers
thought proper, and the vessel had been detained until her
owners could prove that she was not intended for such a
service.
RELIEF OF THE DESTITUTE IN IRELAND.

In answer to • question firolll Mr. O'CONNELL,
Mr. LABOUCHERE raid that although i)ublin wait ex-
cluded from the Labour Rate Act, it would not be excluded
from the act to provide relief for the cl,,stitute.
MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND.

Mr. AGLIONBY inquired whether txrivretnie was to be
proposed by the government to remedy the evils attending
the regulation and distribution of the Merchant Seamen's
Fund?
Mr. WARD said the government were not prepared on
the present state of the information on the subject to bring
in a bill; but intended to issue a commission to make further
inquiry. (Hear, bear.)
FLOGGING IN THE NAVY.
In reply to 1111 inquiry from Mr. W. WILLIAMR,
Mr. WARD said the admiralty were most anxious to
cheek abuses of power in the use of punishment on board
ship, and hoped when the bon, member for Montroec (Mr.
Hume) brought forward his motion on the subject, to be
able to state something satisfactory.
EUROPEAN REFINED SUGAR.
_

In answer to a question from Mr. Ricaano, which was
not distinctly heard,
Mr. T. M. GIBSON said that the law to which the ques-
tion of the hon. member referred, stated that manufactured
goods were to be deemed the produce of the country of which
they were the manufitctures ; and if sugar refined in Europe
be considered a manufactured article, no doubt it would be
admissible into this country as uropean produce; but, of
course, that question must be decided by the customs when
the sugar might be imported.
Mr. RICARDO wished to knot► whether the question bad
been decided by the government ?
Mr. GIBSON—In reference to any decision which the
government may have come to as to a claim on the part of
the Dutch government, i will take the liberty of answering
that question on a future day. (Laughter.)
Mr. RICARDO said he should ask the question on Monday.
PURSERS IN THE NAVY.

Captain PEC HELL wished to know what steps bad been
taken with regard to the petitirn of the pursers and pay-
masters of the Navy, complaining that the recommendation
of the commissioners., respecting the increase of their half
pay, in the expectation of which they surrendered 43 per
cent. of their emoluments, had not been carried into effect.
Mr. WARD said it was the intention of the Admiralty
Board that the receommendation of the committee of 1841
should be carried out.
SUGAR IN BREWERIES. . . .

Sir H. W. BARRON wished to ask the right hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether there would be any
objection to the use of sugar in breweries for colouring beer,
instead of patent rash. He understood it would effect a con-
siderable saying of foxl.
The CHANOELLLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
was • clause in the bill relating to the subject.
NAVAL CAPTAINS LIST.

Sir C. NAPIER wished to know, from :the Secretary of
the Admiralty, whether, 100 captains having been taken off
the list under the order of last year, and 72 fresh ones put
upon it since then, it was the intention of the government
to promote any more captains till the hot was reduced to 000?
Mr. WARD said he would answer the question on Monday.
M 1 LLBANK PENITENTIARY.
. .

On the motion that the house, on its rising, should ad-
journ till Monday,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know whether the right
hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home
De-
partment was prepared to lay on the table the report re-
specting the Millbank Penitentiary ?
81r O. GREY said he had not received any document on
the subject since the last conversation in the house on the
subject.
Mr. ESCOTT said the right hon. gentleman knew he
could have the report at any time. But the right hon. gen-
tleman wishing to have the substance of the report in the
form of a letter, he (Mr. Exton) consulted two gentlemen
at the bar—one of them being Mr. Serjeant Manning—on
the subject, and they were of opinion that he should make a
report. The latter said that if he• took any other course
he would be acting in disobedience of the Queen's coin-
rsrnds
Mr. DUNCOMBE—The right hon. gentleman being de-
tamable& to receive only a letter, and the hon. member for
Wbeheatar that he would only write a report, the cense-
gnaws was that the public were left in the dark. lie would
move as an assimdment that the hon. gentleman be called on
to lay the report on the table.
Sir O. GREY was ashamed that this subject should
occupy so much of the attention of the house. (Hear, hear.)
He was informed that he could not consistently with prac-
tice receive a report from the hon. gentleman ; but if the
hon, gentleman put him in poissision of the facts in a latter
he would lay it before the house verbatim of literatim. As
he mid before, be had no new document on the subject.
[Mr. Bacon hem walked up and handed the right hon.
gestionsgA pipe grail aka of " Divide.")
Mr. HUMI hoped the boom would not be called on to
dleido. (Rear, hear.) What AM it signify whether the in-
human was contained la a Mitre or sprat ? (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GRIT said a eisommat bid been put into his
hands that semoit L sik misal mils, ins weed of which
he had not dm to rod (Hear, hear.) Ha did not think
he would be disaharging his duty if, without having read its
meMe. be LB it en the table. (Hew, Mar.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE said the right hon. gentleman had the
dammisst three times before, and he relumod it each time.
He oho road it.
After a Mr words from M r. Escorr, disclaiming any dis-
courtesy towards the right hon. gentleman, the amendment
was withdrawn, and the motion of adjournment agreed to.
Mr. DUNCOMBE signified. kb intention of bringing the sub-
ject before the house again. (" Oh
ES. , oh.")
C EI A HIT I

Mr. HUME wished to know the government in-

tended to bring in a hill in the present session to regulate
the charities of the country ?
Sir G. GREY was understood to say, that the subject
was under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) ADVANCES
BILL

On the motion that the report be received,
Lord CLEMENTS begged to urge on the government
the necessity of looking alter certain funds in the Bank of
Ireland, and also the funds of the Reproductive Loan
Society, and other societies, which could not be touched ex-
cept by act of parliament, for the relief of distress in Ireland.
He wished to know what bad been done with respect to the
encoura,aement of fisheries.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
5,0001. had been voted from the Reproductive Laan Society
for the encouragement of fisheries on the western coast of
Ireland. . -

In answer to a question from Mr. W. WILLIAMS as to the
mode in which the money would be advanced,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
advance. on the security rates would be made from the con-
solidated fund. He already proposed to take a vote for
300,000/. Whatever other sums might be required would
be voted from time to time in committee of supply.
DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on the bill,
Mr. HUTT said he was anxious to say a few words on the
subject of emigration, the importance of which in connexion
with the present destitution of Ireland, he believed to be un-
der-rated. ( Hear, hear.) He lamented that her Majesty's
government alluded to the subject in a disparaging manner,
the more so because he considered a systematic colonisation
as one, if not the only means, by which the country could be
rescued from the evils that must, he feared, ensue from a
sudden transition from potatoes to corn so an article of food.
(Hear.) Now, the noble lord at the head of the government
had pointed out two means of employing the population,
namely, home colonisation and foreign colonisation. Home
colonisation would give immediate employment to the
people, and an eventual return for the money expended;
but it would not, for some years,alter the relation between
the quantity and the supply of oad, whereas foreign coloni- I
eation would, in the latter respect, even within the present
year, produce some change. (Hear, hear.) In South
Australia there was, at that moment, a demand for at
least film thousand heads of families ; sad the Islands
of New Zealand, and the Eastern coast of the Cape
of Good Hope, afforded similar openings, and, without
saying what amount of emigration could be borne by Canada,
he erns convinced that there existed at home and abroad
ample means of providing for the increasing population of I
ages yet to come. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the
question of cost, he might remark that the colony of South
Australia had defrayed all the expense which it originally
involved; and he believed that systematic colonisatien car-
ried out on the same principles as regarded the population of
Ireland, would be attended with the same result. Unless by
such means as he suggested they could provide the means of
feeding the population of Ireland, that country must continue
to be supported out of the purse of England and &A-
land, through the medium of a poor-law.
Sir G. GREY said that though he was fully sensible of
the importance of the subject which his hon. friend had
brought before the; house, he hoped the house would not be
led into an incidental discussion, but proceed at once with
the bill which stood in the paper. (Hear.)
On the question being again put,
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose, in pursuance of notice,
to call the attention of the house to the propriety of estab-
lishing a smaller territorial division in Ireland for
the purpose of poor relief rating. The hon. member
said that if the subject, upon which he was
about to speak, had not more immediate reference
to the bill than that of emigration he would not delay the
progress of the measure by any remarks. The whole terri-
torial arrangement of the present poor law in Ireland was
based on the town-land division, which was one of the most
ancient territorial divisions in that country. The poor law
commissioners having already full power to do what was re-
quired, when properly instructed, his object was that the
territorial divisions should be much smaller, and they should
not only have regard to the amount of population and the
extent of territory, but also to the share which each indi
victual proprietor might have in the property of a parti-
cular townland. It had been proposed during the present ses-
sion to impose a tax upon absentees. No measure would be
more heartily welcome than the bill proposed by the govern-
ment to secure the sale of encumbered estates; but he must
say, he thought they would act unwisely to say to the Eng-
lish capitalist, whom they asked to invest his money in Irish
land, that the moment he had completed his purchase, they
would impose a tax upon him if he left the sod. Therefore,
they had better let him invest his money first—(hear, hear)
—and impose the tax afterwards. (Laughter.) With
respect, however, to an absentee tax, what was proposed to
be accomplished by that tax he would endeavour to effect by
a different, but he hoped, a superior method. An absentee
tax, it was urged, would interfere with the liberty of the
subject and the investment of capital. His proposal. whilst it
was free from both these objections, would enable them to
draw, in the course of their legislation, a distinct differ-
mice between those landlards who did their duty to their
tenants, and those who did not. (Hear.) He believed
that the good landlords would have a right to complain were
they punished for the mismanagement of others. The
noble lord end the right hon. gentleman the member
for Tamworth unite 1 in calling out to the Irish landlords
"Help yourselves!" (Hear, hear.) Very well! He
(Mr. S. O'Brien) had no objection to the advice; all he ob-
jected to was the course pursued in impressing it, for whilst
they called out to the landlords in words " Help your-
selves;" by their deeds they desired them not only to " help
themselves but to "help their neighbours also.' (Cheer-
ing.) He Called upon the English landlords, with whom
he had been solely associated, and whom he knew so well,
to aid him in this matter. It was their object to make Ire-
land loyal. At present territorial, ancestral, and aristocratic
influences had more effect on the peasantry of Ireland than
the law of the land. If they desired to strengthen that law
they must strengthen the hands of good landlords.
The government could not inflict upon the landed property
of Ireland a heavier blow or a greater discouragement than
by enlarging the area of taxation in that country.
Mr. LA BOUCHER E said he had weighed the whole subject
most maturely, and the result of his deliberation was, that
it would be impossible for the government, consistently with
its duty to the people of Ireland at large, to adopt in this
matter the principle now urged upon them. (Hear, hear.)
What was that principle—so broadly, so unequivocally, so
nakedly, so earnestly enunciated by the hon. gentleman?
It was neither more nor less than this—that in providing for
the distress of Ireland they should deal, not with com-
munities, but with particular properties. (Hear, hear.)
He had never heard the propoaitaon so distinctly put, as it
bad been that night. He bad indeed, always thought
that it lay at the bottom of the question, but it had not been
so urged upon the government by the Agricultural Society
of Ireland. The hon. gentleman said that he objected to
the electoral district as the unit of taxation. Now, what
was the electoral district ? There were about 2,050 electoral
districts in Ireland, the average amount of the acreage of
which was from 10,000 to 15,000 acres, certainly not too
wide a tract of country, but a tract on which it might rea-
sonably be supposed that the landed proprietors could, with-
out inconvenience, ensemble together, and combine, and
consult, for the public good. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gen-
tleman wanted to down to the townland system, there
being about 600 o I townlands in Ireland, each 00-ile-
terminate with individual property, or, in other words, to
deal, not with the community, but with individual property.
He (Mr. Labouchere) considered that this wasirinciple
whichcould not be safely seceded to, and be regarded it as
fraught with danger and with injustice. (Hear, ear.) The
hon. gentleman asked, will you, by having enormous areas
of taxation, deprive the owners of land of all motive to take
care of their own, particularly in swamping them with
masses of surrounding pauperism ? Certainly, he had no
desire to deprive landowners of a motive for taking
care of the poor about them; quite the contrary. The'
point was to avoid extremes, to adhere to a secure and prac-
ticable medium. By no means are districts so large as to
deprive proprietors of all motive for taking care of the poor
in that district, which was the very object of a poor relief
law; but, on the other hand, do not unduly restrict the
principle, or say to each particular proprietor, We will give
to you the charge of taking care of the poor residing on
your own property, but we do not ask you to combine with
the proprietors around in any comprehensive system of
relief for the district. He considered such a principle
as most injurious in its tendency. (Hear, hear.) It was a
principle which, as he believed, was not admitted into any
Poor-law in the world. It was certainly not to be found in
England. It was a principle, in fact, that did not apply to a
free country, but only to a state of serfage. (Hear, hear.)
It was quite a feudal principle. (Hear, hear.) The noble
member for Newark (Lord J. Manners), cheered : the noble
lord might like the principle all the better that it was a
feudal principle, but he (Mr. Labouchere) who did not no I
highly venerate things feudal, objected to it all the more on
that account, and precisely because it did not suit Ireland
any more than England in this year 1847. (Hear, hear.) '
Besides the objection as to principle, there were many grave
objections to the proposition as to details, He believed that
if they had to deal with 80,000 townlaada, spread over the
country, with separate machinery, separate account., and
separate supervision, in reference to the execution of the
poor-law contemplated, they would find it impossible to
execute the poor-law at all. (Hear, hear.) Aye, or even if
there were only half 60,000 townlands, or a quarter. He
considered that the principle would act most injuriously in very
many cases, and meet unjustly. For instance, some landed
proprietors in Ireland had, by way of improving their estates,
thought it advisable to make a regular clearance of all the
tenants upon it whom they considered ineligible. Upon the
hon. gentleman's principle this process might be resorted to
by any landowner disinclined to support his own poor, and he
would then be exempt from the maintenance of any poor
at all, and the burden would be most unfairly thrown upon
the more humane proprietors of townlands around. (Hear,
hear.) He thought that the hon. gentleman, under-esti-
mated the advantages of keeping up the co-operation and
concert now existing among the members of the various local
committees in Ireland. (Hear' hear.) There had accrued
already the greatest benefits from this bringing together of
men of opposite creeds and political opinions, who, in these
committees, learned for the tint time to know and to appre-
ciate, and to assist one another, and he saw vast future bene-
fit to Ireland from this amicable approximation of previously
discordant elements.
_ .

Mr. M.6:lElTtilitLL suggested that it would be better
to waive the principle in reference to this temporary mea-
sure, leaving the subject open for discussion on a future
occasion.

H. W. BARRON considered the electoral divi-
ne= far too large.
Mr. BELLEW could not agree with the hon. gentleman
who had just letdown. He thought it better that even some
injustice should be done to the :good landlord than that the
bad should be entirely ruined. Anything amounting to a con.
&cation would injure the peasant as well m the proprietor.
Lori J. MANNERS mid that the right hon. the Secre-
tary for Ireland bad objected to =yams approaching to

feudalism. He (Lord J. Manners) looked upon feudalism
in a more favourable light-..a the performance of mutual
duties and the preservation of mutual rights. (Oh, oh.)
He might be wrong, but it was his firm conviction that tee
eommunht was best served when individual rights and indi-
vidual duties were meet properly maintained and performed,
He hoped that the house would attend to what had fallen
from the hon. members for Kildare and Waterluid, and not
be led away by the imaginary dangers of feudalism.
Mr. OSBORNE wished to call the attention of the how
to the fact that when this bill passed, two systems of re'isd
would be going on simultaneously in Ireland—the peer
relief and the -labour-rate acts. The object was to release
500,000 labourers from the roads for agricultural ptuposse,
and this was to be done by giving relief in food. They
would coat at the lowest estimate 10,0001. a day, and beside%
the food contemplated, namely a quart of soup per head,
would not fit a man for agricultural labour. He must enter
his protest against this temporary bill.
Lord BERNARD thought it of the utmost importance
that the bill should become law as speedily as possible.
(Hear, hear.)
The house then went into committee on the bill.
On Clause I.
Mr. F. FRENCH proposed as en amendment, " That the
appointment of relief superintendents should vest in the
lord-lieutenant instead of Sir It. Routh and Sir Joseph
M'Gregor, s, pr mixed by the bill."
Sir 0. GREY objected to any alteration. The appnizt.
meats were under the bill virtually in the hands of the lord-
lieutenant.
Mr. FRENCH withdrew his amendment.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 and 3 were severally agreed to.
On clause 3, which provides for the formation of the relief
committees, being pot.
M. W. S. O'BRIEN objected that the proviso appointing
justices members of the e iminitteed,wal not sufficiently defi-
nite, and suggested an amendment to remove lf.s objection,
Considering, too, the great service s hich had been rendered
by the clergy of every denomination, acting on the relief
committees, he thought they ought to be members under
[ this bill.
Mr. B. OSBORNE bore testimony to the exertions of the
clergy in relieving the distresses of the people, and suggested
that one, at least, of every denomination should he appointed
members of these committees,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
the great services which bad been rendered by the clergy,
hut the Lord Lieutenant had placed clergymen on the pre-
sent relief committee, and, as the power would still remain
in his hands to appoint them if he thought fit, it would be
much better to leave the matter in his hands.
Col. CONOLLY remarked, if it were a eecessary qualifi-
cation that the juricts should reside in the electoral diris
sion, he and many others would be excluded from these corn.
mittens. This would not he the case if the residence were
required to be within the limits of the union.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL was of opinion that all the clergy of
every denomination residing in the district should be mem-
bers of these committees.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE: If it was provided in the bill
that the clergy residing in the district should be members
it would be inferred that those who did not so reside would
not be eligible, which would be in tact placing a check on
the discretion of the Lod Lieutenant.

Lord CLEMENTS objected altogether to leaving the
matter to the Lord Lieutenant,

The Earl of LINCOLN, while be admitted to the fullest
extent the great benefit that had resulted from the services
of the clergy, thought there would be a much greater cer-
tainty of insuring good working committees by leaving it to
the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant whether they should be
appointed or not. If they did not place more limit to the
number of members, the committees would become mere
debating clubs.
Mr. SIIA W.—Seeing the greet practical benefit that bad
accrued from their presence on the relief committees, should
have the greatest pleasure in seeing the clergy of all deno-
minations appointed under the bill.
Mr. 11. OSBORNE suggested that the proviso should be
struck out altogether.
Mr. LABOUCtIERE considered that some control
should be given to these who represented the ratepayers,
and therefore could not consent to that course.

Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN withdrew his first amendment,
but would divide upon the introduction of the words '• the
dewy of all religious denominations officiating in such
electoral di s ision."
Sir G. GREY hoped it would not be understood that, in
opposing the amendment, the government had the least ob-
jection to clergymen of any denomination being members of
relief committees—(hear, hear)—but the proposition of the
hon. member was, that ministers of all description., should
be members of the relief committees, ex officio. (Hear, and
"Oh, oh.")
The committee divided.—For the amendment 32
Against it l2B-96
On clause 6 being read,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (in answer
to Mr. M. J. O'CoeNett) said that it was intended to give
the power of appointing finance committees, not only in
every union, but in several divisions of one union.
On clause 7 being read,
Lord CLEMENTS said the ill effects of the Labour Rate
Act had arisen from the neglect of the government to define
who were to be relieved, and who were not. He was
of opinion that persons rated at 41. under the poor-
law act should be excluded from receiving relief, because he
knew several farmers who received relief under the labour-
rate bill to the exclusion of the poor. (Hear, hear.) There
melt to be some definition as to who were entitled to relief.
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought it much better that a dis-
cretionary power should be left to the relief committees
than that any strict definition should be introduced into the
bill. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. FRENCH could confirm the statement of the
right hon. gentleman, that in several instances great suffer-
ing would be inflicted by restricting relief to persons rated
at 41.
Mr. BELLEW thought that a large discretionary power
was necessary to carry out the bill. II is opinion was, that it
would be better not to have any bill of this sort, but to teat
to the permanent Poor-law Bill.
The clause as amended was agreed to.
On clause 8, which provides for the issuing of warrants
directed to the guardians, requiring them to pay the amount
of the estimate to the person named in the warrant, being
put,
Col. CONOLLY said it was meet unreasonable to im-
pose on the guardians the duty of finding the money which
they had notoriously not received. (Laughter.)
Mr. OSBOR eiE would venture to say that one farthing of
the rates would not be collected by next harvest. (Hear,
hear.) That was his firm conviction. He would venture
to suggest that it would be wiser to allow the interest to
such unions as were obliged to overdraw their areowitr.
Mr. ROEBUCK said it was now acknowledged that itwse
impossible to raise money in Ireland, though several Irish
membershad undertaken the pleuine duty of abusing him foe
saying so. The antics of the hon. member for Meath could
not be forgotten. (" Oh, oh," arid hear.) If they were to
give money, let them understand what they were about, but
let them not be persuaded to lend money, which some
no doubt highly honourable and honest men, pledged
themselves should be refunded; but which other, equally
honest, perhaps, but more plain spoken, said they would re-
ceive, but without any intention to repay it. (" Hem,
hear," and laughter.) The noble lord (Lord Clements) add
thin money, like the money already expended, would not
be appropriated to the poor, but to minister to the grasping
desire of thou who traded on the misery of their fellow-
countrymen. (Hear, bear.) He put his statement In
stronger language than was used by the noble lord, but fa
substance it was the same as the noble lord's. (" Heir,
bear," from Lord Clements.) The hon. member for Wycombe
(Mr. Osborne) also confirmed the statement which be (Mr.
Roebuck) made. These two propositions then were dear:
that the money of the people of England would be
thrown away on not merely bad and useless,
but on corrupt objects ; and that the means of the
laborious ind istrious people of England, imitate'',
and mischievously employed, according to the words of the
noble lord, would not return into the Exchequer, from
which, under false pretences, they had been withdrawn.
(Hear, hear.)
Lord CLEMENTS must admit that what the bon. and
learned member had said was correct in the main. (Hear.)
He (Lord Clements) asserted that the money was misspent
and misemployed—(hear, bear)—and that the poor man for
whom it was intended, was defrauded of his due. (Hear.)
Mr. ROSS rose to correct the misapprehension under which
the member for Both laboured, as regarded the meaning of
the noble lord and his bon. friend neer-him—as regarded their
statement alluding to the impossibility of collecting the
rates before next harvest. They did not mean to say that
the portion which was to fall on the landlords would not be
Paid.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose to confirm what fell
from the hon. member for Bath, so far that he knew that the
greater number of small owners would pay no rates, and
that it was imposnble to get it from them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the picture which the hon. member had laid before the
house was not very encouraging to this or any other system
of relief that could be adopted. Having had several
modes of affording relief under their consideration,
the government came to the conclusion that this was the
,i
beat system they could devise. There was no doubt what
I was said as to the impossibility of collecting the rates hem
small owners in certain places was correct, but that was not
true as a general position. They, at all events, had no doubt
of being able to collect that rate which fell on the landlords.
It was said that the government called upon the guardian*
to act beyond the powers vested in them. This bill pm
them powers which they had not before to enforce the pay-
ment of a rate; and if they did not put their power into exe-
cution, they should appoint paid guardians to do so. The
object of this bill was to step in to prevent the people of
Ireland from starving. Take the bill as it was, with all Its
faults, and it would be found to be the only means by whisk
the people could be saved.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE rose to express his dissent from
those who thought that the farmers benefited by the money
enixfiejth.dteshc
theßO acePEusaipyciliagthatetnifanthuethyeattesmmeptedwureto levy the
ensue that was caused by the attempt to levy tithes on the
tenantry in 1834. He thought all the rates should be paid
in the first instance by the landlords.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded
the house that the lord-lieutenant had been obliged to stop
the works in the county of Clare in consequence of the riot-
ous conduct of the people, and that it was there that a same
derous attack was made on an overseer merely for dieehaig-
ing his duty. He then read a letter from Capt. Wynne, say-
ing, " The committees have improved greatly this week
the returns will be 3,000 Ices than last, and I fully expect to
strike off 3,000 more next week." It was also cited in the
letter that numbers were returning to the cultivation of
the soil.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN complained that Captain Wyenes
having made a personal charge of partial conduct Mean

T

himself, and that charge having been investigated
and disproved by Captain Wynne's own confession, that
gentleman had not made any report that the charge was not
substantiated.
Mike MACNAMARA said that he was chairman
of a raief committee in Clare, and that committee had
sever been visited by Captain Wynne.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL mid there was a great probability
that the rates would not be paid before nest autumn, and '
that the attempt to levy them would produce great disorder.
Mr. W. 8. O'BRIEN thought they should give up all
idea of collecting rates from persona holding tenements under
101. a year; at present the amount at which payment began
was D.
Mr. DISRAELI referred to a letter from Capt. Wynne
(page 308 of the published correspondence), complaining of
the extraordinary conduct pursued at a presentment sessions
is Ennistysion, at which Capt. Macnamara, M.P., had pre-
sided, and charging that hon. member and his colleague with
abetting the feelings of the mob.
Mr. C. O'BRIEN denied that anything had fallen from
hie colleague or himself on that occasion which could justify
Capt. Wynne in writing such • letter.
Mr. LABOUCH ERE regretted that charges of this na-
ture should have been introduced. In the absence of Capt.
Wynne, he felt bound to say that, in common with every
member of the Irish government, he believed no officer lad
more distinguished himself, or acted a more gallant and de-
voted part, in circumstances of unparalleled difficulty, than
Capt. Wynne had done in the county of Clare. He might
not have acted judiciously in every instance, but the general
scope of his exertions entitled him to the warmest thanks of
the house, as having been mainly instrumental in preserv-
ing the peace in the county of Clare. (Hese, hear.)
Mr. SHAW said it was a gross misrepresentation that
Emmen in comparatively good circumstances had been placed
on the relief works ; the ilia was that no more distres.ed
class existed in Ireand than some who were described
as timers. . _ _ . . -

Alter a few remarks from Lord BERNARD and Mr. 8.
Co \WPORD, the clause was agreed to, as were also 9, 10, and
11. On clause 12,
Mr. 8. O'BRIEN asked the government to postpone the
consideration of this clause until Monday, as it was one on
which considerable difference of opinion existed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER truggested
that it would be better to take the discussion on bringing up
the
Lord repo LINCOLN raised some objection to the clause, and
sassier/notion ensued. Ultimately
Mr. ROEBUCK moved that the chairman do report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. DISRAELI had no wish to impede the progress of
this bill, but as the money clauses followed, he concurred is
the motion of the hon. member for Bath.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said if such
was the general feeling of the house, he would at once ac-
quiesce, (Hear.)
The house then resumed ; the CHRIRNIAN reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday next.
Tne committees on the subjoined bills, vit., the Brewing
from Sugar Bill and the Distilling from Sugar Bill were
postponed till Monday next.
The house adjourned at a quirter-past l± o'slock.

Vie Oppreoo.

MAILS.

The malls foe Vigo, Oporto, Lisbon, Madeira, Cadiz., and (fibrellea
will he made up on the morning of the sth Ifebrnary.
The overland Closed mallo, via Mantilla, to the Mediterranean,
Egypt, Aden, CAlloa. India, Hong Kong, Be., will be made up on the
evening of the sth Februari .
The West India malls, including those for Mexico, Honduras, and
the tlavannah, will be made up on the morning of the 1 7th February.
Tb• overlent mails for Gibraltar, Malta, Greece, the lonian Islands,
Aden, Ceylon, India, (long-Kong, and China, via Southampton,
will be made op on the morning of the 2oth of February.
The malls for New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land, and Mier
Zealand will be made up on the evening of the Ist March.
The malls for British North America, Bermuda, and the United
Stater, will he made op on the evening of the 3rd March.
The mails for the Brazils, the River Plate, Monte Video, Pennine.
Duce, Bahia, Madeira, and Buenos Arai, will be male rap on the
evening of the 4th Morel,