The Express.
London, England, 1847-02-05 00:00:00

an error that DO much was required to be done by the lord
lieutenant ; he thought the committee* should be left to act
themselves, and that the measures should go from the
te,.gsgey without any intermediate interruption. The
government ought either to take the entire management
into their own hands, which it was impossible to do, or to
leave it to the Irish gentleineis themselves.
Mr. H. GRATI'AN defended the Irish landlords against
the attacks of Mr. Beehuck. The han. and learned member
knew nothing of the duties or the wishes or intentions of
that body. The money which England had lent to Ireland
she had borrowed at 34, and lent to her at 5 per cent., and
the greater patof it had been repaid. The hon. and
learned member said he would take care that none of the
money abut to be a (vented under these measures atonal go
to the Irish members—why, the Irish meinlwrs never got the
money. But when there was a surplus in the Irish treasury
it was taken away by the King of England. It was true
that English gold had gone to Ireland, but for what purpose?
To ho distributed iu bribes to bring bought members into the
Irish parliament, and to dssecrate and ultimately to destroy
the uriepentenee of the coumry. The n stilt of
your conduct to Ireland (said the hon. member) is now
recoiling upon yourselves Vengeance is for God; but, were I
revengeful--did I desire vengeance, I should rejoice that
you arc now brought on your knees before Irishmen, and
that you now bud that you must feed the beggars that you
hrve for centuries oppressed. (Hear.) The hon. and
learn. d member for Bath had talked about Irish bellies
being filled with English beef; but did he know anything
about thee:portant cattle from Ireland to this country sud did
he know that every animal Liken from that country deprived
30 people of employment. (Laughter.) The attacks of the
hon. and learned member for Bath he could not characterise
as sarcastic, ho would not call them malignant calumnies,
but he wool I describe them as the dripping poison from the
shrivelled adder. ( Laughter.) Re cautioned English members
from listening to the mischievous and pernicious doctrines of
the hon. and learned member. Ile thought the proposition
of the noble member fur Lynn had much merit in it, and he

thanked him for it.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL had hoped that some arrangement
would have been made by the house to facilitate
the passing of the measures brought errward for relieving
the distress of Ireland, eith rby suspending the minding or-
ders, ore oulnoing the discussion upon them from day to day.
The measure of the noble lord might be geed or bad, but lie
thought it injudicious to interfere with the measures of the
zovernmit. The government had taken upon theme lees
the responsibility of preventing starvation; it was for them
net to divide that responsibility, but to misled the government
in their object. Very intemperzte speeches hail been made
upon the subject ; but he hoped it would be borne in mind
that that interference did not originate with the Irish
members—(hear. bray)—that it had begun with an hon.
member who had unfortunately made himself conspicuous
in
that respect, whose position he did not think an enviable one,
and whose conscienc, if indeed his mind were right, ought
not to be at ease. (Cheers and laughter.) With every emcee!
fax the hon. member for Montroac, up to the year
ISO, there was, einco the uninu, a surplus of
Irish money remitted to England of nearly 20,000,0001.
From re document he held in hie hand it appeared, that of
18,000,0001. advanced by way of loan to England and Scot-
land, only 6,200,0001. had been repaid; while of 17,000,0001.
Issued to Ireland, 9,000,0001. had been repaid.
Mr. HUDSON concurred in the measure of the noble lord
the member for Lynn. He regretted extremely that the
hon. member for Bath had indulged in language which
might reasonably be expected to excite the indignation of
kon. gentlemen from the sister country—(hear, hear)--emil
thought it was much to be desired that that hon. gentleman
would take an evening to himself, in order to have his views
fully tested by the house. (Hear, and laughter.) He did
think that the home was much indebted to the First Lord
of the Treasury for the candid manner in which he had re-
ceived the prop sition of the noble lord, and hopedthe mea-
sure would receive from hint that patient consideration,
however prepossessed lie might be against it, which its
magnitude deserved. (Hear, hear, hear.) He felt satisfied
that the statements and the calculations of the noble
lord who introduced it would be borne out by every
practical man. The hon. member for Montrose might well
reoullect the Caledonian canal—(cheers. )—showing that his
counire, too, had shared in the distribution of the good things
which that house had to offer. Now, if there was one prin-
ciple in this bill more to be admired than another, it was
this, that the government, at least in his opinion, would not
lou one sixpence by it. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord did
nut contend that there was any great prospect of its giving
encoungement to private enterprise. No ore who under-
stood the nature of railway companies, and who had ob-
served the disinclination which exited to embark capital in
Irish speculations, could expect capitol to flow from such a
source. But the noble lord's object was, to offer an induce-
ment to those companies, by receiving support from
parliament, to proceed with the works for which they
were formed. Other countries had successfully excited pri-
vate enterprise by loans from the public puree in furtherance
of such works, which not only benefited the localities
through which they passed, but added to the social hap-
happiness, promoted the social intercoune, and increased the
civilisation of the people. (Hear, hear.) He knew not why
similar results should not take place in Ireland. It was said
that such a measure was proposed to benefit Irish landlords -
but that which would confer a benefit upon one class of the
community must eventually benefit the whole. He trusted
therefore, that they would hear of no more attacks upon the
Irish landlords, but that those who had indulged in them
would confine themselves to the question, whether public i
Mil ought or ought not to be extended for the promotion of I
Irish railways. He confessed that he thoueht it ought,
more particularly as he believed that by such a course the
üblic revenue would not suffer. Some years ago he had
himself carried out a similar plan, A railway communi-
cation had been made as far as Darlington. It became
desirable to extend it northward ; but fincing it impossible
to obtain from the public the necessary amount of capital for
effecting that chject, he got five or six companies to
guarantee the payment of 6 per cent. • the difficulty was at
once solved, and the necessary capital suincribed. He therefore
anticipated much success front the measure of the noble lord.
Under that bill a commismon would have to examine into
each case, to ascertain if the line would be remunerative,
or at least pay the interest of the debt, so that the company,
upon that fact being determined in the affirmative, could
go with confidence to the execution of the work, knowing
that if they paid 11. the government would pay 21. Such
an agreement must not be looked upon in the light of a
gift to the Irish people, because it promised a fair return
(hear, hear); and it was the duty of that house to afford
assistance in the execution of such works as it believed to be
of public advantage. If the noble lord opposite did not
adopt the bill of the noble lord, the member for Lynn, he
felt satisfied he would bring forward a measure equally
practical.
Mr. WARBURTON mid that the question to he decided
was, whether they ought to advance 16,000,000/. for the
promotion of Irish railways; and in the decision of the
government not to engage in such a scheme, he entirely
c nursed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said although
there were topics which had been brought forward in the pre-
sent discussion, on which he shouldhave been glad to observe,
yet as be rose now principally to appeal against the prolong.
ing of the debate, andtorequesthon. members to abstain from
doing so, he was bound to set a good exeruple• and refrain
from making any observations. he noble lord the member
for Lynn. in a very able speech, had distinctly detailed his
plan, and his noble friend at the head of the government had
as distinctly Mated the course which, both at present, and in
the future stages of the bill, he should pursue; and leave
had been given to bring in the measure. There was stand-
ing for discussion to-night a measure of practical relief for
Ireland, and he begged to appeal to the house, and espe-
cially to the Irish members, to allow this discussion clise,
and not to interpose any delay between the proceeding with
that measure.
Mr OOULBURN said that the right hon. gentleman
had stated that the noble lord at the head of the government
had announced the course he ahould pursue when this bill
Come to be discussed. He (Mr. Goulhurn) thought that
that course was not generally understood, and it was omen-
tial that the home should be informed on the point, and that
a question involving such lame pecuniary interests, and
which might lead to much speculation, should not be left in
uncertainty. (Hear, hear.) Such a enures was open to the
greatest objection, both as regarded probable speculation and
the interests of the works which it was intended to promote;
for who would advance money for such works unless the
opinion of the government was known ? He therefore called
on the noble lord clearly to state the course he intended to
pursue. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would answer the question of
the right hon. gentleman, by re-stating what he said before,
(Hear, hear,) which he was afraid had not been perfectly
understood. He said that it would only be respectful to
his noble friend, and he was confirmed in that opinion by
reflection, that he should be allowed to introduce the bill.
It would, however, be necemary, on a further Mane, for the
house to go into coraraittee, in order to approve an advance
of money for the object* of the bill. On that occasion be
thought it would he incumbent on the government, either
to undertake to carry the plan into operation, or at once to
negative it. He had also said that he was not prepared to
carry the plan proposed into effect, and when that authority
to advance money was applied for, he should be prepared,
' on the part of the government, to refuse it.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said, that although he felt with the
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that
this was not the time to proceed with the diecussion of this
bill, he did not think the time which it had °monied had
been wasted. He thought no more practical measure had been
proposed during the present session, and he should feel
that be was wanting in duty to the noble lord, the member
for Lynn, and to himself and those whom he represented, if
he did not take that opportunity of thanking him for the
propetrianl
whichh tma. made—(hear, (1= Ifioerawr ) logr,VallZafor the
spir-
psnied by any of that contumely with which what were
galled boons to Ireland were usually accompanied. He was
not surprised at the course taken by the honourable
member for Fath • for he bad taken every opportunity
'Seeded by the disasters of Ireland of heaping undeserved
amine on every class, abusing the landlords, the clergy, the
middle classes, and the people ; and he left it to the house
to my whether, when a country was suffering as it was,
each a course should be adopted. That hon. member had,
in the fiat clam, stolen the plan of his hon. friend the
member for Stroud, and then indicated his wish to lay on a
property-tax in Ireland; and then he talked of enacting a
law which wee posed two years ago. He was surprised
when his political opponents proposed a plan by which
sixteen millions would be expended in Ireland in four
years, that the noble lord at the head of the govern-
ment did not grasp at it, especially as the noble
lord hod said that be did not care what was the ex-
penditure, but his only object was to feed the people. He
ped the noble lord the member for Lynn would move an
address to her Majesty, praying that this scheme might
be carried into effect, and that the noble lord at the head of
the government would reconsider the determination he had