The Express.
London, England, 1847-07-20 00:00:00

of from 6001. to 1,5001. a year, is commends*, to eke oat
their incomes. Another evil was, that several clergymen
held various dignities and preferments: for inolance, 15
clergymen held 64 pieces of preferment. A commission,
however, was appoinud in 1831 to inquire lets the evils
existing in the church ' • and Hest of all they applied them-
selves to the incomes of the biihopa, when it eppeared to
them that it was desirable to do away with the heliliog of
benefices and Brief/. in commendion to matte up their in-
cornea, and it further appeared that some of the larger
bishoprics might be diminished, and afford better lucomes to
the smaller once. They proposed that the income of the
Bishop of Durham should be reduced to 8,0001. a year.
Another abuse hail been put an end to, namely, the fre-
quency of tranelation. Next, as to the each, deals, it appeared
that a considerable diminution might be made in the cum-
ber of dears, canons, and other cathedral offices ; and by
the reductions made a fund of 131.000/. a year had
fallen in, and the real amount on the expiration of existing
lives and the completion of ether arrangement., ultimately
would be little lees than 300,0801. a year. They had very
greatly diminished the patronage of the crown and the high
dignitaries of the church, and had not been, as it was said,
utterly neglectful of the working clergy, for this sum of
134,0001 (and which, aa he had before said, would ultimately
reach 300,0001) had been devoted to the augmentation of
email benefices. Then, as to pluralities, they hod been re-
'Witted, for a measure had been passed that no clergyman
should hull a second benefice more than ten miles from
where be hoed. (Hear, hear.) He really thought these
things bad been u'terly lost sight of—(hear, hear)—and he
was not row propcsing that the whole surplus revenue of
the church should he devoted to the creation of four bishop.
rice, neither was he responsible for the opinions of the bishops
of London and St. Aleph. He did not wish to detain the
house, but he trusted he had shown that in these reforms,
which had been conceived by the government of Lord
Grey--afterwardo put in motion by the commission of
Sir Robert Peel—and subsequently carried into effect by
eats of parliament—be trusted he had shown that
what was due to the efficiency of the hierarchy, and the
best mode of providing ler the spirituol wants of the great
body of the people, had been duly considered. (Hear, hear.)
Though the right hon. gentleman, the member for Tam
worth, and the right hon. gentleman, the member for Cam-
bridge, and be, differed on other questions, with regard to
question; of eeclesiutical reform he had great satisfaction
supporting them ; and again, when he was is office, he
always received cordial assistance from them. (Hear, bear.)
The right hen. gentleman, when lately in office, proposed a
measure for appropriating 008,0001. to the building ot dis-
trict churches, with moderate incomes attached, and to that
Tatifa(4l 4. gave a cordial support. What he wished to
•

' situreusliedlainlnenn he did
not sten uep alone solely for the purpose at increasing the
number of bishops. He thought that,--making provision as
they hod for the reform of annit, having don* away with
benefice' held its commendam, having done away with the
evils attending the translating of bishops, having done away
with sinecures, having made better provision for the cure of
souls, having applied a remedy to the evils of pluralities,
and those evils which many years ago Bishop Watson
thought so hurtful to the church, they were not —if
they conceived the ministration of the church could be
made more useful by putting more bishops in the dioceses
hereafter to be created—to consider the church and the
coucerns of the church ea finally settled, but that they
ought to leave to that body that principle of life and exten-
sion which belonged to all other bodies, whether lay or
clerical, and which bethought oughtto belong to ecclesiastical
bodies. (Hear, hear.) The plan they now proposed was
only a part of a plan, but it WV 114 distinct from others which
bad' w
stater: to the house, both as related to the increase
in the number of bishops beyond that of Manchester, and
also that these bishops should not have seats is the House of
Lords. In both of these conelusious he had the sanction and
agreement of those bishops who sat on the ecclesiastical
commission. (Hear, hear.) It was to be expected that
many would have asserted, as had been asserted in that house,
that they ought not to allow bishops to be crest, d without at
the same time asserting their right to sit in the House of
Lords which was an inseparable part of their privileges.
He (Lord J. Russell) differed from that conclusion ; and,
as he had stated, the bishops generally acquiesced in it. He
therefore asked the house to go into committee on the bill,
in order that they might discuss its details. Atter what had
passed on Friday night, he thought he was not making an
unreasonable request in asking the house to go into com-
mittee, in order to consider the objections of the hon. mem-
ber for Manchester and the right hon. baronet the member
for Dorchester. (Hear.)
Sir W. MOLESWORTII said that the speech of the
noble lord might be summed up in one sentence, namely,
"we have done much good, therefore we are entitled now
to do some evil." (Hear, hear.) He heard no argument in
favour of this bill from the noble lord, and till he heard
some argument in favour of it he would give it every oppo-
sition. It was well known that two-thirds of the liberal •
members who voted for the bill were really in favour of its
postponement, and that was well known to the noble lord.
He dared hon. members on his side of the house to stand
up and declare that they were in favour of the measure.
(Hey, hear.) He nailed on the right hon. gentleman
the member for Perth—the friend of the free church of Scot-
land—to declare that he was in favour of the waking of more
bishops. He was net prepared without due consideration to
Five a decided opinion on this subject. He therefore thought
it ought to be postponed till they knew what was the opinion
of the people of England. (Hear, hear.) Next session the
state of the church generally could be brought under their
etmaideration.
Mr. TRELAWNY said they seemed to be living in strange
times. They saw free-trade measures carried by tones, and
church extension measures about to be carried by whips. He
would oppose the bill in its various stages, but he would not
offer any factious opposition to its passing. He thought that
at the present period of the session it ought to be postponed.
He did not think it worth while to excite the feelings of the
dissenters for so small a measure as this, and he believed it
would be productive of far more good if the income of the
Bishop of Manchester went to increase the number of the
working clergy. (Hear, hear.)
CONFERENCE.
A conference having been requested with thin House of
Lords, Lord J. Rosana. and several other members pro-
ceeded to attend the conference. On their return, the noble
lord said that the managers on the part of the Lords had
agreed to the resolution of the House of Commons relating
to the bringing up of bills from the House of Lords by one
Master in Chancery.
After a few words from Lord J. Rossett is explanation,
Mr. J. COLLETT thought this measure discreditable and
disgraceful to the noble lord. Though he considered himself
a high churchman—(loud laughter)—he felt compelled to
continue his opposition to the bill. He thought the house
had a right to know what had been done with the 200,0001.
which the Bishop of London received from lessees of the pro-
perty on the other side of Bayswater-road.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE hoped that his hon. friend would
not divide the house, after the understanding that had been
come to on Friday night.
Mr. OSBORNE also hoped that his hen. friend the mem-
ber for Winchester would not divide the house.
After a few words from Mr. Escorr, consenting to with-
draw his amendment, the amendment was withdrawn, and
the house went into committee.
Mr. M. PHILIPS was understood to say that a deputa-
tion of persons belonging to the church had waited on him,
and requested him to urge the postponement of this measure
until nexteenion of parliament, when it could be more fully
considered and discussed. He felt grateful to the noble lord
for being mainly instrumental in enabling Manchester to send
him as its representative to that house. The first vote he
gave in it was against the government to which the noble
lord belonged, on the Irish Coercion Bill, and he should re-
gret if the lint vote he recorded was slto in opposition to
him. He did not think the noble lord ought to fora this
bill on the people of Manchester. He would therefore move
that the words " forthwith establishing a bishopric of Man-
chester" be struck out of the preamble of the bill.
Mr. H. CHOLMONDELEY was anxious that a calmer
and wiser "pint should be introduced into this discussion.
This debate bad been characterised " a riotous debate," and
it well deserved the appellation. Laughter had been excited
on a subject of a most serious character. Never was there a
question in which it was lees appropriate. The spiritual
interests of thousands were involved, and those interests
were of importance to other interests in the proportion as
eternity was more important than time. He trusted, there-
fore, this bill would no longer be made the vehicle for ribald
jest. For his own part, he regarded the measure in two
points of view. First, as a reconsideration of the decision of
parliament for a union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.
he, as a Welshman, could not hut support it on that ground.
Then, as a measure for the creation of a new order of
bishops—in this point of view be regarded it with
favour. The bishops were almost the only body in *1 coun-
try whose numbers had not been increased. Manchester,
he believed, specially required the benefit of a bishop, and
be should, therefore, support the bill on that ground. On
behalf of his constituents, he thanked the government for
the present measure.
The question having been put,
Lord J. RUSSELL observed, with rope* to the amend-
ment, that he saw no occasion for ins Ws this bill
any provisions relating to the chapter of Ma weever. At
the same time, in some future measure, he awl" Yaw no
objection to consider how far the fund" of that eiCsalt
be made more available to the spiritual benefit et
Mr. HUME, addresaing himself to Mr. Cbelneuedbey's
observations, repeated hie denial that either gabs se Mao-
ohistor needed bishop".
Mr. WAIJLER said that he gave a most willing support
to this bill. (Hear, hear.) The diocese of Chester was
much too large even for the present active diocesan. The
hon. member for Manchester, who had spoken, no doubt re-
presented the feelings of the dissenter' of that town ; but he
denied either that by his speeches, or by the amendment he
had now moved, he represented the opinions of a majority of
the inhabitants.
Mr. HORShf AN should vote for the amendment, but on
a different ground from that on which it had been brought
forward. He was anxious that the original arrangement for
the creation of a Bishop of Manchester should be carried
into effect ; but he wished to see it arranged as etigimilly
proposed by tie comminion and sanctioned by parliament,
namely by the union of the sees of Bangor and St. Aaaph.
Mr. SEYMER asked who the opposition to this ball TO-
presented ? Did they represent persons who went to church
or called themselves friends of the church l As for the
argument that the poor clergy of Wales did not want a
bishop, be believed they would rather have a bishop than an
increase of their inmates arising frees the suppression of a
bishop.
Mr. AOLIONBY

preferred poverty
Col. TRIIVOR
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lion put Wore thee
Mr. H. CHOLM
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