1948-04-26

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, as hon. members of the house are aware, our King and Queen are celebrating today their silver wedding anniversary. It will be the desire of all citizens of Canada to have congratulations and good wishes extended to Their Majesties on this occasion. I can think of no more appropriate manner of so doing than by resolutions of both houses of parliament conveying expressions of loyalty, devotion and affection toward the King and Queen from the people's representatives in parliament assembled.
I have had a word with my hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bracken), and he has kindly agreed to join with me in a resolution of which we have both approved, and which I shall move in just a moment. Let me only mention that never before in the history of our parliament has there been an occasion when it was possible to pass a congratulatory address upon the day of the silver wedding anniversary of the reigning sovereigns. When King George V and Queen Mary celebrated their twenty-fifth wedding anniversary the parliament of Canada was not in session. King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra celebrated their silver wedding anniversary before King Edward VII ascended the throne. Because of the untimely death of the Prince Consort which occurred before the twenty-fifth anniversary of the marriage of His Royal Highness to Queen Victoria there was no opportunity to extend such an address. These circumstances lend a note of added significance to the opportunity which is ours today. I am sure it is one that will be welcomed in all parts of our country, and by none more than by those of us who are representatives of the people in parliament.
I accordingly move, seconded by Mr. Bracken, the Leader of the Opposition:
That an humble address be presented to Their Majesties, the King and Queen, in the following words:
Most Gracious Sovereigns:
We, Your Majesties' loyal and dutiful subjects, the House of Commons of Canada in parliament assembled, beg to offer our sincere congratulations to Your Majesties on the 25th anniversary of your marriage.
As members of the Parliament of Canada, we are happy to avail ourselves of this anniversary to express the warmth of the feelings cherished towards Your Majesties by the Canadian people. Your devotion to each other, the exemplary character of your family life, and your unfailing consecration to public service through years alike of war and peace, have been an inspiration to your subjects everywhere.
We trust that Your Majesties may long be spared to share the happiness of life together, and to enjoy the affection of your peoples in all parts of the British Commonwealth of Nations.
I would ask that when this resolution is passed a copy of the resolution be cabled to Their Majesties by Your Honour, also that the cable be later supplemented by a copy of the resolution suitably engrossed and bound as a permanent memento of the expressions of the Canadian people toward Their Majesties, King George VI and Queen Elizabeth, at this time.


Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the motion just moved by the Prime Minister is one with which I am sure every hon. member of this house will be in hearty agreement. I rise only to associate myself formally with it as seconder.
The silver wedding anniversary of our King and Queen serves to remind us that the crown in British commonwealth countries is one of the few remaining evidences of unity that we have, perhaps the best remaining one.
Fortunately the royal family has set us an example of family life and public service which has gained for them the respect and admiration of us all. At a time when certain political and social institutions are crumbling, and when other monarchies are falling, the British crown has emerged with a reputation enhanced throughout the world and more strongly enshrined in the hearts of the people than ever before.

Congratulations to Their Majesties
Under such circumstances-on behalf of my associates, and I am sure I speak, as the Prime Minister has done, for all members of the house-we join with all the other members in offering congratulations to the King and Queen on the twenty-fifth anniversary of their wedding, and in wishing for them many more years of life together in which to serve their people.


Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have spoken for all members of the house on this occasion, and we of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation wish to associate ourselves with the motion and the congratulations to Their Majesties.
May I take this opportunity of pointing out that a few days ago we celebrated another anniversary, that of the Prime Minister of Canada in exceeding the record of Sir Robert Walpole for long tenure of office as Prime Minister of Great Britain. What an extraordinary thing it is that throughout the last two centuries the British monarchy has remained a symbol of our unity and of the privileges and liberties which the parliaments of the commonwealth have won for us all. Because Their Majesties are symbolic of this unity and this great progressive democratic tradition, it is with pleasure that we join the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in this message of congratulations and good wishes.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to be able to join with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in this expression of our good will and congratulations to Their Majesties the King and Queen on the twenty-fifth anniversary of their wedding day.
I speak for all in the Social Credit group when I say that we are deeply mindful of the high place which the King and Queen hold in the hearts of the people of this country and of the commonwealth as a whole. We wish for them long life and a continuation of the splendid example which as the royal family they have set to all the people of the commonwealth.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the house express its approval of the resolution by joining in singing God Save the King.
The members rose and sang
God Save the King
and at the Prime Minister's suggestion, three cheers were given for the King and Queen.



TORONTO BOARD OF TRADE


Mr. J. A. BRADETTE (Cochrane):: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of privilege, in the name of those members who accepted the invitation of the board of trade of the City of Toronto through its worthy president, Mr. Hugh H. Lawson, to visit the Queen City under its auspices on the 24th and 25th of this month, I wish to take a few minutes of the time of the House of Commons to express the thankfulness and appreciation of the many members of the house, representing every province and every political group in this assembly, who accepted the invitation,
No expression of gratitude on my part could properly record our appreciation of the warm and cordial reception we were accorded by everyone, the friendliness of our hosts, and the interesting instructive program which most delightfully guided all our activities during our sojourn, and which was expertly scheduled and smoothly and beneficially implemented.
The same sentiments are also gratefully expressed to the mayor of Toronto, Mr. Hiram McCallum., and to the city of Toronto for their welcome and the banquet at which we were guests last Saturday evening.
Our thanks are also extended to the officials of the Toronto Transportation Commission for their most instructive demonstration dealing with civic improvements and rapid transit. Special mention should be made of the excellent transportation facilities which were provided for us and which we thoroughly enjoyed throughout the trip.
I should also like to express our most sincere appreciation to Mr. Thomas Rennie, former chairman of the Toronto Harbour Commission, and to the commission itself, for the information they provided us, the well-planned tour of the harbour by boat, and the luncheon given to us yesterday.
We express our most sincere gratitude also for the warm and gracious hospitality extended to us at a reception given by the Lieutenant-Governor of Ontario, Hon. Ray Lawson, and Mrs. Lawson, at their Oakville residence.
I also wish to express well deserved thanks to all the federal members representing the city of Toronto and adjacent districts, and their wives, for the courtesies and attentions they bestowed upon us on all occasions.
We cannot let this opportunity pass without making reference to one of our members who by his constructive contributions to civic and national welfare has left a deep imprint upon the hearts and minds of the citizens of his

Parliamentarians' Visit to Toronto
city, of which he had been the mayor for seven consecutive years; and he has been a active representative in this parliament almost continuously since 1921. We all realize that he is a peer among his people, and that he is held in the highest respect and affection by all. He was our constant companion, giving us practical and illuminating information on civic matters, and, by his wide experience and enthusiasm, inculcating in our minds a better knowledge and understanding of the problems and aspirations of the fine progressive people of the city he serves so well, in both the civic and the federal field. I refer, as all members know, to the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church).
I feel that we should be remiss in our duty if we did not express to you, Mr. Speaker, our sincere admiration for the delicate, efficient and eloquent manner in which you expressed your sentiments when on several occasions you were called upon to speak. The spontaneous and prolonged applause you received in every instance from all your listeners was ample evidence of the impression made upon them by the words spoken by you in our behalf.
As a result of this journey we know that section of the country better than we did before, and there is no doubt that such contacts make all of us feel more friendly toward the people of the splendid city we had the good fortune to visit under such pleasant and efficient auspices, and a little closer to them than ever before.


Mr. J. A. ROSS (Souris):: Mr. Speaker, in order to make it unanimous, having been privileged to accompany the delegation to the city of Toronto, I should like to add a word of appreciation of the courtesies and hospitality we received from the Toronto board of trade, the city council, the Toronto harbour commission, the Toronto Transportation Commission, and all their officials, who contributed to making this a most educational and entertaining visit.
We spent two delightful days in the city, well on into the evening and night, and those who were able to rise early on Sunday morning and go out and inspect the new Sunny-brook veterans hospital found it an experience well worthwhile.
I do not want to take up any more of the time of the house, but I wish to endorse all that the hon. member for Cochrane (Mr. Bradette) has said, and to express our unanimous thanks to all those who had so well planned and organized our visit. In saying that I am sure that I speak for all hon. members As one who comes from the far distant
prairie provinces may I say that the visit has given me a much better understanding of the problems of this great Canadian nation.


Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I do not rise to move an amendment, but I should like to say that w'e of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation also want to make it unanimous. We should like to be associated with the expressions of appreciation that have already been uttered by the hon. member for Cochrane (Mr. Bradette) and the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross). We all enjoyed the *week end immensely, and are grateful for the hospitality shown us.
I should also like to join with the hon. member for Cochrane and say that we of this group, as well as hon. members from all parts of the house, were proud of Your Honour on the occasions on which you were indeed our spokesman. I think Your Honour would probably wish me to add that we were proud last night of the hon. member for Cochrane when you called upon him to be the spokesman for us on one occasion.


Mr. C. E. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker. I should like to join with those who have already spoken in appreciation of the splendid entertainment which was provided for us in Toronto. It is a matter of much satisfaction that on such an occasion all parties could meet on a non-partisan basis in the city of Toronto on the invitation of the board of trade. That all parties were very efficiently represented was indicated by the large number of members of all groups who were present.
Special appreciation should be expressed to the city of Toronto for the manner in which they carried out their entertainment program. It was gratifying to all of us who were there to see the way in which the city of Toronto entertained the federal members regardless of party lines.
The members of this party would like to join with those who have already spoken in extending our thanks and appreciation.



HARBOUR COMMISSIONS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Minister of Transport) moved the first reading of Bill No. 208 (from the senate) to amend the North Fraser Harbour Commissioners Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
Questions


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Acting Minister of Mines and Resources) moved the first reading of Bill No. 209 (from the senate) to amend the National Parks Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. ROSS (Hamilton East):: What publications are distributed by the child and maternal health division o-f the Department of National Health and Welfare?


Mr. MARTIN:: No publications are distributed by the child and maternal health division of the Department of National Health and Welfare.
The responsibility for the production and distribution of all health education material rests with the information services division of the department, and distribution of most books, pamphlets, folders, posters and other similar material is normally made through the provincial departments of health. Where the provincial departments have active divisions of health education the best possible use of such material can be made when it is placed in the hands of public health nurses and medical health officers who are directly in touch with the public, or when distributed through well-baby clinics, health units, child guidance clinics, etc., etc.
Many publications of the Department of National Health and Welfare have to do with the health and welfare of mothers and young children. Chief among such publications is the 232-page book "Canadian Mother and Child" written by the chief of the child and maternal health division, over 800,000 copies of which have been distributed to expectant mothers and others interested in child care.
Booklets, pamphlets and posters published by the department include the following:
"Healthful Living"; "Your Baby's Teeth"; "Your Child's Teeth".
Pamphlets dealing with dental hygiene;
"Polio": A leaflet dealing with infantile paralysis;
"Let's Talk Food Mother"; "Mother! The School Lunch". Pamphlets on nutrition.

"A Children's Charter". A booklet on Family Allowances in Canada.
A set of six posters on immunization.
A series of folders on child training, originally produced and distributed by the Canadian welfare council and now taken over by the Department of National Health and Welfare, is being revised and reprinted for general distribution through provincial channels. Already published are three in this series entitled:
[DOT] "Obedience: How Can I Teach My Child to Obey?" "Bed-Wetting: How Can I Correct My Child's Habit?" "Feeding Habits: How Can I Guide My Child's Eating?"
Three others in this series will be issued very shortly, as follows:
"Temper: How Can I Control My Child's Outbursts?" "Fear: What Makes My Child Afraid and Nervous?" "Sex:	What Should
I Tell My Child?"
A new folder devoted to child and maternal health, which will be appearing soon, is entitled "Ten Points to Remember-Before and After Baby Comes". This is intended as complementary material for distribution when the department's films on child and maternal health, "Mother and Her Child" and "Know Your Baby" and the filmstrips-"Nine to Get Ready" and "Introducing Baby" are being shown.


FLOOD CONDITIONS-TORONTO AREA
Mr. CHURCH:: Regarding the great damage to the federal Department of Public Works breakwater at Wards to Centre Island, Toronto Island, has the district engineer of the department yet reported on this, and what action is being taken to remedy the damage?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: Yes, report dated April 23, 1948. No action is being taken to remedy damage, as recent examination revealed that no damage whatever had been sustained.


AFTON-BAYFIELD-SUMMERSIDE RURAL MAIL SERVICE
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What is the government's policy in regard to the establishment of rural mail routes?
2.	Are the washes of the majority of the patrons respected?
3.	On whose recommendation was the Afton-Bayfield-Summerside, in Antigonish county, Nova Scotia, scheme proposed or inaugurated?
4.	Is it the intention of the postal department to establish this rural route in opposition to the v'ishes of the vast majority of the people served?


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: 1.	Rural mail routes are established in reasonably well settled rural areas to provide


194S
[Stage Direction]
Questions
an improved standard of postal service commensurate with the requirements of the community.
2.	Rural mail delivery service is not placed in operation until at least fifty per cent of the eligible residents have purchased and erected rural mail delivery boxes.
3.	Action in this case was taken on a report, of the post office inspector based on representations of Mr. J. R. Kirk, M.P.
4.	Rural routes are never established in opposition to the wishes of the people.

Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	How many veterans receiving war veterans' allowances have children who are minors? How many minors does this grouping embrace?
2.	How many T.B. patients receive war veterans' allowances? How many children are there in the families of such T.B. patients?


Mr. GREGG:: 1. Records are not maintained to reflect the answers to this question, as war veterans' allowance is not paid in respect of minor
1. 1943 Crop	Bushels
Manitoba	 2,885,198-05
Saskatchewan	 10,660,263-10
Alberta and	B.C	 7,805,234-55
21,350,696-10
1944 Crop
Manitoba	 4,461,677-30
Saskatchewan	 16,898,590-30
Alberta and B.C	 11,459,272-30
32,819,540-30
children as such, except orphans. War veterans' allowance is paid at higher rates to married recipients whether or not they have children, and irrespective of the number thereof. War veterans' allowance is also paid at higher rates to a widowed recipient (a widower or widow), having dependent children, irrespective of their number.
2. Records are not maintained to reflect the answers to this question as, in the case of a veteran under the age of sixty, war veterans' allowance is awarded on the basis of established incapacity, regardless of the nature of the disabling condition, and, in the case of a veteran over sixty, the question of disability is not a determining factor.
-WHEAT PRODUCERS CERTIFICATES


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	What is the total number and amount, by provinces, of wheat producers certificates covering the wheat crops of each of the years 1943 and 1944 that have not been presented for payment to the wheat board?
2.	What is being done to ascertain the identity of the persons entitled to such unpaid certificates?


Mr. McILRAITH:: Value S 340,511 03 1,331,549 14 1.038,660 60	% Unpaid 7-95 6-18 9-55	Number of Prod. Certs* (estimate) . 24,944 97,552 76,104$2,710,720 77	7-38	198,600S 833,961 33	10-63	25,6233,174,364 49	7-73	97,5192,147,024 59	12-56	65,958$6,155,350 41	9-32	189,100
The above figures are as at March 31, 1948.
* The number of producers certificates outstanding is an estimated figure, as an actual count was not made, but the figures stated are approximately correct for all practical purposes.
2. The producers concerned have not yet been contacted directly regarding certificates outstanding in their favour for two main
reasons-
(a)	Both accounts are still very active, as during the month of March we dealt with approximately 2,500 claims (1943 crop) and
8.000	(1944 crop).
(b)	A very large percentage of the outstanding certificates are being held by the producers concerned until such time as they elect to
forward them for payment, and only a comparatively small number are actually lost certificates.
By circular to elevator agents, reference was made to both crop years and the quantities and relative amount outstanding. A poster was subsequently supplied to all elevator agents. Producers who were holding 1943 and/or 1944 crop certificates were specifically requested to forward them to this office for settlement.
Orders for Returns

At a later date, when the accounts become less active and the volume of outstanding certificates is reduced, the producers concerned will be contacted individually by means of a form letter. In the meantime, when we receive definite advice that certain certificates have been lost or mislaid, the producer concerned is forwarded a "Lost certificate application form" which, when returned completed, is authorized for payment without delay.


FAMILY ALLOWANCES-VIOLATIONS OF REGULATIONS
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	How many persons have been prosecuted for violation of the family allowances' regulations since the family allowance act came into effect?
2.	How many convictions were obtained?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	Eight.
2.	Seven convictions have been obtained' to date; one pending.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. ISNOR:: (1)
Based on the volume of freight traffic and the cost of operations in 1947, what percentage increase in freight rates was necessary to bring about an even balance sheet-(a) to the Canadian National Railways; (b) to the Canadian Pacific Railway?
(2)
1.	What was the volume of freight traffic in the Atlantic region of the Canadian National Railways for the year 1947?
2.	What was the cost of operation?
3.	What percentage increase in freight rates was necessary to bring about an even balance sheet?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: I would ask that these two questions be passed as orders for returns. The railways do not operate their accounts on a cost accounting basis, separating their expenses between their passenger, mail and express, etc.; therefore it is impossible to give the information asked for by the hon. gentleman. What we can do is to file exhibits covering, in part, some of the things asked for, which was given at the hearings in the freight rates case, if that is satisfactory to the hon. gentleman.


FILM BOARD-OFFICES, AGENCIES AND STUDIOS
Mr. FRASER:: 1. Does the national film board maintain any agencies, offices or studios in Canada, other than those offices and studios, etc., in Ottawa?

2.	If so, where are these offices, agencies or studios located?
3.	Does the national film board pay the rent of the premises occupied by the above, and if so, what rental is paid for each property?
4.	If the national film board does not pay the rental of these properties, give name of department paying rent, or upkeep, and the amount of rent, or upkeep, of each agency, office or studio.


REPRESENTATION-ADDITION OF MACKENZIE DISTRICT TO YUKON
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: Did not residents of the district of Mackenzie and of Yukon Territory petition parliament or the government not to add Mackenzie district to Yukon ?


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: Return tabled.


WARTIME TAX AGREEMENTS
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What amount of taxes has been collected each year from each province under the wartime tax agreements?
2.	What amount has been paid to each province each year as a result of the above mentioned agreement?


SOLDIER SETTLEMENT
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	How many veterans of great war I took out loans under the soldier settlement board scheme?
2.	What is the total amount of loans ex: tended?
3.	What is the total amount of interest accrued from the inception of the scheme to December 31, 1947?
4.	What rate of interest w-as charged?
5.	What rate was paid by the government for use of this credit?
6.	From whom was it obtained?
7.	What amount of (a) principal; (b) interest, was repaid up to December 31, 1947?
8.	What amounts were cancelled under the different legislation?
9.	What was the total still outstanding at December 31, 1947, of (a) principal; (b) interest ?
10.	Since the scheme became operative until December 31 last, how many settlers (a) signed quit claim deeds; (b) were served with 30-day notices to vacate?
11.	How many settlers still were in debt to the board at December 31, last?
12.	How many of those are over 70 years of
age?


FEDERAL GOVERNMENT-EMPLOYEES
Mr. STEPHENSON:: 1.	What was the total number of employees employed by the federal government as of March 31, 1948?
2.	What was the total salaries of these employees as of March 31, 1948?
3.	What is the number of employees in each department of government and the total salaries paid in each department?

Inquiries of the Ministry
4.	What are the names of the existing crown commercial corporations or boards of the federal government as of March 31, 1948, and what (a) is the number of employees in each and the total salaries paid; (b) are the names of the directors or administrators and the salaries paid each?


WHEAT BOARD ACT AMENDMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day;
John Bracken: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. It has to do with the matter which was brought up by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) two or three days ago, but to which at that time the ministry was not in a position to answer.
In view of the press reports on the judgment * of Chief Justice E. K. Williams of the Court of King's Bench of the province of Manitoba, in which the chief justice held invalid the powers exercised by the government with respect to barley under the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, I desire to ask two questions. First, is the government taking steps to have the judgment appealed, and second, what effect will the judgment have on existing controls that derive their validity from the same act?


Right Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the first question, instructions have been given to appeal from the judgment of Chief Justice Williams. In answer to the second question I would say that, so far as I can ascertain, the judgment has no effect on existing controls that derive their validity from this act. The validity of the act itself was affirmed by Chief Justice Williams. The authority of the governor in council to pass a certain order in council appropriating properly was denied in the judgment of Mr. Justice Williams. But I am not aware of any prejudicial effect upon any other controls.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Did not that judgment decide that the bare reference in an order in council that an emergency existed was not of itself sufficient to permit emergency legislation?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I cannot discuss the judgment here, and therefore I am unable to answer the hon. member's question. Probably the answer would have to be given with many qualifications, if I did attempt to answer it. But I am answering the question of the leader
of the opposition (Mr. Bracken), whether the effect of this judgment is to unsettle existing controls. My answer is that I think not.


PENITENTIARIES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre); Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Justice, arising out of the murderous breakout today in Kingston penitentiary, following as it does so quickly on the recent successful breakaway. Does the minister intend to have an investigation made and drastic measures taken to prevent such things from recurring?
James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, I wish first to get a full report on the circumstances. The convicts who broke out this morning at 9.40 have been apprehended by the penitentiary staff who pursued and caught them, and who have them in custody at the present time. Nevertheless it may be that a careful investigation is indicated.


INCOME TAX
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. E. STEPHENSON (Durham):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Revenue. In view of the fact that rural law offices and auditors' offices are overwhelmed by requests from farmers to assist them in connection with their income tax returns would the government consider extending the date for the final filing of the returns so that the returns may be completed?


Hon. J. J. McCANN (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any authority at the present time for extending the final date at which returns must be made. I have not had notification of the question; but if there is any change from the usual procedure it will be announced.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Revenue, and I do so because of the number of communications I have received from central and southern Alberta. In view of the fact that, according to this morning's paper, there is another tremendous storm reaching from central Alberta to within fifty miles of the United States border, will the minister give consideration to postponing the date of returning income tax forms? I
Inquiries of the Ministry

can assure him that the roads in many sections during February and March, and even now, have been impassable; and they will continue of course under present conditions.
I make the request seriously because I know many people are anxious to make their returns, and if they cannot do so will be subject to severe penalty.


James Joseph McCann: In view of the representations made by the hon. member, and of the extraordinarily bad conditions which appear to have obtained in the last month or so, I shall certainly bring to the attention of the government the matter about which he has spoken, and will later indicate the decision arrived at.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Saskatchewan and
Manitoba are in the same position.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I shall send the minister one letter which I have on my file.


SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE-REFERENCE TO PRESS REPORT OF BROADCAST BY MR. CLAXTON
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to ask a question on a matter of privilege, rather than to make an inquiry of the government. I wish to lodge a protest in connection with certain matters precedent *to the calling of the committee on house rules, which is to be convened for the first time tomorrow.
As Your Honour very well knows, the idea behind the calling of that committee was that it should consist of as few members as possible, and that those members should be as representative as they could be, having in mind certain circumstances and conditions in connection with the political parties. Two members of the committee were to be from the government, one from the Progressive Conservative party, one from the C.C.F., and one from the Social Credit party. At best, the getting of agreement on certain necessary changes in house procedure and rules will be difficult enough. But, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Clax-ton) in a broadcast which was reported in the press on Friday-I could scarcely believe it, or I would have raised the question then- puts entirely upon the Progressive Conservative party the blame for the necessity for revising those rules, then I must protest. And more than that, I say to the minister that, after all, if he wishes to beat his leadership drums around through the country, or on the air or elsewhere, I do not want him to do so at

the expense of trying to get agreement while the rules committee is sitting. If that is to be the attitude of the government, they can get ready for a first-class fight when the committee convenes tomorrow.


SOLDIER SETTLERS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ROBERT FAIR (Battle River):: Mr. Speaker, today the Prime Minister moved a motion extending felicitations to Their Majesties the King and Queen upon the celebration of their twenty-fifth wedding anniversary, after which the members joined lustily in singing God Save the King. A little later, well-merited thanks were extended to the Toronto board of trade and others in that city for their hospitality on the occasion of a visit of parliamentarians to Toronto. Since coming into the house I have had handed to me a copy of the Western Producer, which contains a letter dated April 22 over the signature of Walter Tucker, House of Commons, in which he deals with the question of clear title to soldier settlers. I wish to read three or four lines from the letter, and then to ask a question.
This is in reply to a letter entitled "Tucker and the Veterans" which appeared in a former issue of the Western Producer. It says:
If he is I can only say to him that I have urged, and am continuing to urge, that these old S.S.B. accounts should be settled on an individual basis so that in those cases which warranted it clear title could be given for a further perhaps nominal payment, and other cases adjusted accordingly on a fair and generous basis.
I want to ask the Prime Minister and the Minister of Veterans Affairs if they will be good enough at. this session-not later-to see that all those 3,000 veterans are granted clear title, without delay. I do not want the House of Commons to have to rise and sing God save our old soldier settlers of great war I. Let us give them clear titles instead. May I ask the minister for an answer?
Hon. MILTON F. GREGG (Minister of Veterans Affairs): I shall study carefully the question asked by the hon. member.


NATIONAL DEFENCE
[Stage Direction]
CHANGES AT NO. 5 EQUIPMENT DEPOT On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. R. EMMERSON (Westmorland):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence. I would ask him what action his department has taken with regard to No. 5 equipment depot which

Unemployment Insurance Act
would warrant the headlines in the local papers and warrant local radio announcements referring to the closing of that depot.


Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, No. 5 equipment depot has an establishment of nine officers, 137 other ranks and 221 civilians. That establishment is being reduced to eight officers, 102 other ranks and 195 civilians, largely due to the removal of the instrument repair section consisting of one officer and 11 other ranks. The purpose of its being moved is to promote efficiency and economy by putting that section in close working arrangement with the corresponding civilian industry and also to put it in a centre of population, industry and military activity in Ontario.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, April 20, consideration in committee of Bill No. 203, to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940-Mr. Mitchell-Mr. Golding in the chair.
On section 1-Exempted persons.
Stanley Howard Knowles: The other night at a previous stage of this bill the minister indicated that he had an open mind on one question that I brought to his attention. The question had to do with the request of certain labour bodies that provision be made for three umpires instead of one. I see no provision for that in the amending bill now before us; hence my question at this time. Can the minister say whether further consideration has geen given to this request, and if so, with what result?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: While it is true that I said I had an open mind on the matter, I should like to point out to my friend that sometimes all wisdom does not necessarily come from national organizations or national political parties. The resolution to which he refers came, I believe, from the Winnipeg trades and labour council. Provision is made in section 53 of the legislation giving the commission power to appoint additional umpires, or deputy umpires, as they call them. But the commission is of the opinion at the moment that the volume of work is not of sufficient magnitude to warrant the appointment of additional deputy umpires. Last year the umpire dealt with 136 cases. While it is a matter of judgment and opinion, I still think there is something to be said for one umpire, where you do not get a difference of opinion
in interpretation of these problem cases. My hon. friend may rest assured that should the volume of work become such that the commission and the government feel it is necessary to appoint deputy umpires in order to expedite the work of the commission, we shall be glad to do it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then I can take it as definite that no change in the act itself is needed in order to make this possible?


Humphrey Mitchell: No. Section 53 permits the appointment of deputy umpires. That had slipped my mind. It is already provided for in the act.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 21 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: Shall I report the bill?


Humphrey Mitchell: I should like to thank hon. members for the quick passage of this bill. The work which has been put into its preparation in the last twelve months is, I think, appreciated by the committee.


Arthur Leroy Smith: All good legislation gets the same treatment.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In view of the appreciation just expressed by the minister, might I suggest to him that he refrain from asking for third reading today.


Humphrey Mitchell: Yes, certainly.
Bill reported.


Mr. SPEAKER:: When shall the bill be read a third time?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Next sitting.


James Horace King: Next sitting of the house.



DOMINION ELECTIONS ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. COLIN GIBSON (Secretary' of State) moved the second reading of Bill No. 198, to amend the Dominion Elections Act, 1938.
He said: This bill, Mr. Speaker, is to be referred to a special committee of the house after second reading. A special committee has been set up to consider it.
Mr. JOHN R. MacNICOL (Davenport): I know it is to be referred to the committee, Mr. Speaker, but is it in order to make comments at this time?
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Certainly.
Dominion Elections Act


Mr. MacNICOL:: I will not be long, Your Honour. I have had a great deal to do with election acts. I am thoroughly familiar with the election acts of all the democracies, particularly those of the British empire. I am glad to say that on the whole the Dominion Elections Act, which came from the committee and is going back there, is in my opinion the best election act in any of our democracies. I do not say it is perfect, but it is better than any other act in operation in any component part of the British empire. It is a monument to our chief electoral officer, who has studied election acts more than anyone else I know of. He was a very great help to the committee, as was also the chairman. I did not notice the hon. gentleman in the house, but I can repeat that statement. He was an excellent chairman and kept the committee going forward all the time.
I might mention just one or two things the act does, which lead me to say it is a most excellent piece of legislation. In some parts of Canada when an election occurs we may have both fast and slow time. The act now makes it specific that at all times during an election standard time governs. I believe that is something new.
The part of the act dealing with advance polls has been improved to permit sailors, mounted policemen and government officials who are to be absent on government work, to use them, all of which should have been done in previous acts. It seems to me that for years * the chief electoral officer has been keeping notes of things that should be done to bring the act right up to the minute, and so far as I have observed he has not left out anything. It was not his fault we did not adopt the Quebec system of manning and conducting the polls. I brought up the matter, but the committee did not see fit to adopt the suggestion. I believe it would have been an improvement, and when the act is again revised I hope the Quebec system will be followed. There the government of the day names the returning officer, while the party receiving the next highest vote names the clerk. I have advocated that for years in this house. I am not now going to complain because my suggestion was not adopted; I am satisfied to let it go through as it is, but on another occasion I hope we may be big enough and broad enough to adopt this change. It simply means that you take politics right out of the polls, and it would obviate the necessity of other parties having scrutineers, because with two parties represented there would not be much chance of crooked work.
Another provision in the act permits all lapanese who served in our forces during the

last war to vote. Not only that; they are accorded the same privilege that our own people are given, namely that their wives may vote as well. I am convinced that this is a step in the right direction. The same thing applies to Indians, of whom several thousand served in the last war. Those Indians and their wives are also permitted to vote. The Indian committee has not yet reported to the house; we do not know what they will recommend in reference to permitting all Indians to vote, so I am not going to offer any comment on that at the moment.
Another clause permits all veterans of the late war under twenty-one years of age at the time of the election to vote. I believe that also is a step in the right direction. Perhaps by the time an election comes along there will not be any veterans less than twenty-one years of age; but if there are, they too will be able to vote.
Another section deals with students at universities or colleges. If they are registered at the university or college on the day of the issue of the writ they will have the privilege of registering to vote either in their home ridings or at the university or college they are attending. In the past many students have been barred from voting merely because they were away from home at the time of the enumeration.
Another provision which I think is very good pertains to soldiers in hospitals. A soldier is allowed to choose whether he will register in the riding in which the hospital is located or have his vote transferred to his home riding.
One section perhaps will need some amending; that is the section which refers to contract workers away from home. I know the chief electoral officer has been written to about it. At the moment it is not quite clear, but I am satisfied the committee will rectify that and make it possible for persons working in ridings in which by-elections are to be held, to vote there if they were residing in that riding at the time of the issue of the writ.
I like the section referring to enumerators; it really is to the credit of the chief returning officer. When the enumeration is taking place two enumerators shall be appointed, one by (he government of the day and one by the party which had the next highest number of votes in that riding. This will not mean that all parties will be represented in the enumeration, but one of the enumerators will be appointed by the government and the other bv one of the other .parties; and the act has been amended to provide that the enumerators will have to do their job. We had instances in connection with the enumeration in the last election where one of the two enumerators

Dominion Elections Act
might say, "I have to go down town for the afternoon. You go ahead with the enumeration." That sort of thing will be stopped now, and the enumerators will be compelled to go in pairs and staj' on the job until it is done properly. This is another step in the right direction.
I want to say just a word about the riding of Yukon-Mackenzie, though I do not know whether we can do anything about it. We did thresh out that question thoroughly in committee, but we were not unanimous on it. Some of us felt that Yukon-Mackenzie is really an impossible riding for size. It covers over 700,000 square miles and consists of two very large areas. The activities of Yukon are not in any way related to the activities of the Mackenzie district, and there is no connection between them by air, road or railway. I cannot see how in the world any candidate can contest that riding. I have been over it myself, and I know. You cannot go straight through the Mackenzie area to Yukon. I flew there in a powerful American plane. It had to go over two high ranges of mountains, flying sometimes at an altitude of eight to nine thousand feet, and I do not think ordinary commercial planes can do that. Anyone going from the Yellowknife to the Yukon would have to go away south and then come north again; therefore I do not know how in the world the candidates contesting an election in the Yukon-Mackenzie riding can get around the riding.
The people in that area are strongly opposed to this. I am not speaking now in the expectation that anything can be done, but I would remind the house that a census will be taken in 1951, only three years hence. Then there will be a redistribution, and I hope that at that time the committee dealing with redistribution will give direct representation to the people in the Mackenzie district, as well as to those in the Yukon. As I said, the people up there are opposed to these two areas being put together.
I think I should place on Hansard what the local paper in Yellowknife has to say. I should like to quote from the Yellowknife Blade of April 5, 1948, the editor of which is .John Murray McMeekan. He has been a stout advocate of separate representation for these two areas.


James Horace King: I suggest that the hon. member confine his remarks to the principle of this bill.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not have to read this editorial, because I know what is in it. This editor points out that there is nothing in common between the two areas.


James Horace King: I would point out that we are discussing the second reading of a bill to amend the Dominion Elections Act, 1938, and I would ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the principle of that bill. He will have an opportunity to discuss the bill in detail when it has reached the committee stage.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I shall not continue, because I have no intention of holding up the bill. I am on the committee and I shall reiterate in the committee what I have had to say here.
I will close by saying that I think the country is to be complimented upon having such an excellent chief electoral officer.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I hope that the committee will deal with the section relating to Indians and Eskimos. Five thousand of these men fought in the first world war and even more in the second. They should be treated as human beings and given the full rights of citizens. I hope that when the committee considers the bill this section will be dealt with.


James Arthur Ross: Mr. Speaker, the minister has said that this bill will be referred to the committee, but I am almost certain that I shall not be a member of that committee. I have glanced over the bill and I cannot find any provision for the transferable vote in single constituencies. This has been a strong contention of mine, although I know that some hon. members do not agree with me.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am absolutely opposed to it. I hope there will never be anything like that in the Dominion Elections Act.


James Arthur Ross: I want to repeat what I have said in many past sessions and point out what may be the result in this country if we do not make provision for the transferable vote in single constituencies. In the federal election of 1940 seventy-four members out of 245 were returned to this house with minority votes of their constituencies. In the 1945 general election approximately 150 members out of 245 were returned to this house with minority votes in their constituencies. I submit that before a member is finally declared elected he or she should have in the transfer at least a majority of the votes cast in the riding.
This principle has been in operation for many years in Manitoba and I believe also in Alberta. If anyone wishes to study the acts and how they work out he can confer with the officials in those provinces.
Dominion Elections Act

I trust that the members of the committee which will be studying the act will consider this matter very seriously.
I can picture the possibility in the future of a government coming into office after obtaining only a small percentage of the votes cast. I am democratic enough to say that I would be satisfied if even an extreme socialist government came into power provided they had obtained a majority of the votes cast at the time they were elected. I do not think we should make it possible for a government to be brought into power with perhaps only a quarter or a third of the votes cast. I am thinking of the years ahead when such a thing might easily be possible.
I hope that the members of this committee will give serious consideration to providing for the transferable vote in single constituencies.


Mr. E. B. McKAY (Weyburn):: Mr. Speaker, I have only a few words to say on the second reading of this bill. While we in this corner generally approve most of the amendments provided by this bill, we were disappointed last year because the voting age was not reduced to eighteen years. I hope that the committee which is to consider the bill will reconsider its attitude in this particular matter and provide that the age qualification be so reduced.
I shall repeat in committee the plea which I made last year in this particular regard. I feel that persons eighteen years of age who are old enough to don a uniform and fight for this country ought to be considered old enough to exercise the franchise. Since the government has the power in an emergency to declare that these young people must fight for their country, I feel that these same young people should have some voice in the selection of the government which has that authority.
I hope that this matter will receive more favourable consideration this year than it was given last year. The committee which was set up last year to review these amendments did a very good job. They worked long hours over a considerable period, and on the whole, with a few minor exceptions, what the committee accomplished was approved by our group. But I hope the one point I have mentioned will be given careful consideration this year.


Mr. L. W. SKEY (Trinity):: I rise to put on record some suggestions which have been sent to me by one of my constituents who might be described as a shut-in. He is, however, a man who despite some physical handicaps has achieved considerable and commendable success in the business world. He has spoken to me on.behalf of those who are
[Mr. Ross (Souris)P
handicapped or shut in. His name is R. S. Macdonald, and I should like to put before the minister one or two of his suggestions so that they may be considered by the committee.
The first is that the directions to district returning officers should be published in two booklets, one for urban and another for rural constituencies. This would make it easier for new returning officers to familiarize themselves with their duties without having to search through a long and cumbersome instruction booklet.
A second suggestion is that a candidate's party should be mentioned under his name on the ballot, and that he should be permitted to label himself as the official candidate of his party. I believe that that suggestion is a good one, especially in these times when we have as many as eight candidates in a constituency. Some voters are anxious to support a party with whose principles they agree, but they are confused when they find eight or ten names on the ballot.
Another suggestion is that some effort be made by the returning officers to clarify the occupation of the candidate. For instance, after a candidate's name there might be just the word "president". He might be president of anything. Perhaps the returning officers could be given instructions in that regard.
His final suggestion, and this is the one for which I particularly plead today, is that the enumerators be instructed to take the names of shut-ins, bedridden voters, who have no chance of ever getting to the poll. He suggests that when the enumerator calls at a house he ask if there are any shut-ins or bedridden people there, and that the enumerator make a separate list of such people for the returning officer, who could then mail each of them a ballot before election day. The shut-ins could mark their choice of a candidate and return the ballot in. the self-addressed envelope sent by the returning officer. The returning officer would know how many ballots he had sent out by mail and could check that number against the numbers that come in, to prevent any voting by ineligible persons. He would then credit the ballots to the proper candidates and deposit them in the box.


Robert Fair: Mr. Speaker, I was a member of the committee in 1936, 1937 and 1938 when the Dominion Elections Act was being overhauled, and a pretty good job was done at that time. I also was on the committee which dealt with the Dominion Elections Act in wartime. That committee w7as on a non-political basis. Again last year we spent many days making minor changes in the elections act, and I do not

Dominion Elections Act
know whether we have had any more friendly committee than that one.
I understand that this bill is to be referred to a committee for consideration. So far, few fundamental changes have been suggested, but there is one which I think should be made to ensure that the candidate returned will have a greater proportion of the votes of his constituency than often happens at the present time.
In Alberta we have in the rural ridings what is called the single transferable vote. I think we could very well adopt that s\-stem, in the rural ridings at least, for the purposes of the Dominion Elections Act. At the present time, where you have five candidates running in a constituency, one may get only twenty-one per cent of the total vote and yet be elected to parliament. I do not believe that is good business, either for the candidate himself or for the country. I suggest that the government or the committee do something to remedy that unsatisfactory situation.
I hope that when the committee meets we shall all use the best judgment of which we are capable in dealing with the amendments which come before us.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Mr. Speaker, I want to endorse what the hon. gentleman who preceded me (Mr. Fair) has just said. In Alberta we have had the single transferable vote for a long time, and in Manitoba too, and I have never in all these years heard a single complaint about it. Most people confuse it with what is known as proportional representation, but that is not the same thing at all. The single transferable vote simply means that we do what we do at a political convention which is electing a candidate, where the low man is dropped and his votes transferred until finally the person elected is bound to have fifty per cent of the votes plus one. If that system were adopted in our federal elections it would mean that the candidate elected would not be a minority representative. I am one myself, though not by very many votes; nevertheless I am.
I do not see how we can continue to talk about the grand principle of majority rule when the most of us who are here-150 of us, I am informed by an hon. member-are here without the support of the majority of the people within our ridings. There were five candidates in my riding, and on that basis a person could be elected, theoretically, we will say, with one-fifth of the vote plus one. I do hope that the committee will give consideration to the suggestion.
There is one other matter, and only one, that I wish to mention. I have not read the bill, but I do not think it contains a provision to enable permanently disabled persons to vote. I may say that being very much interested in this matter I communicated with the chief electoral officer. All of us I think will realize the justice of it, and it is only a matter of working out a rule or the conditions under which this could be done. I have had not many letters-I have had three

from my own home city, with respect to three persons there. I should not tell you their politics, sir, but perhaps you may be able to guess it; so I am helping myself to that extent.
But leaving that sort of thing out, it might be impossible at the moment in some constituencies which are far-flung and sparsely settled. It might present difficulties there but it seems to me some arrangement could be made by which we could carry the ballot to the person. It would not be a very expensive matter. I think I represent about half the city of Calgary. I am quite sure that so far as numbers go it would merely mean the employment of one or two persons and one motorcar for the day of the election.
I merely make the suggestion, sir, in order that the committee may examine it and see if it is not-to borrow the expression I hear from my friends to my left-physically possible to permit these people to exercise their franchise.


Mr. W. GARFIELD CASE (Grey North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to endorse the principle of the single transferable vote. When I was first returned to the House of Commons I was a minority member; I won a majority of all the votes at the general election. There is no guarantee that that situation will prevail, therefore in passing I should like to say that I believe it is fair and democratic and would result in returning the people's choice as their representative in the House of Commons.
My principal object in rising is to speak for a moment on behalf of the Canadian Indian. I have served on the Indian affairs committee for three years and I know there is a sense of fear on the part of the Indians themselves in seeking the franchise. They fear that they might be required to give up some of their treaty rights. The Indian was disqualified partly because he enjoys exemption from taxation. We all know of the mounting taxes which we have today. His exemption was on the land on the reserve, and is his by treaty right. But today the average Indian contributes a great deal in taxes. He pays the eight per cent sales tax; he pays the tax on gasoline, and a multitude of other taxes. On
Dominion Elections Act

the money he earns off the reserve he is subject also to income tax. The evidence presented before the Indian affairs committee has indicated a still further desire on his part to be relieved from the income tax; and yet some of them are making substantial incomes. It seems fair to say that if they are to work off the reserve and take the. place of one who might otherwise earn this income, they should be subject to income tax. However, I am prepared to say this: if we were to grant them the right to vote in the dominion or provincial elections it would be educational in itself. It would break down the feeling of inferiority, and I do believe it 'can be done in a practical way; that is to say, I can imagine that some of the Indians living in the more remote areas, where they might be considered more or less primitive people still, might not have the necessary qualifications to exercise the franchise. But I do believe the act can be so worded that the Indian on an Indian reserve within or adjacent to certain electoral districts, where the Department of Indian Affairs are acquainted with their standard of education and their educational facilities, could be given the franchise.
These reserves are all well known. The Indians should be given the franchise because, as I have already said, they are making a sizeable contribution in taxation to the national exchequer and to the provincial government as well. The Indian is not prepared to accept this if it means giving up any of his rights, and yet one of the principal objects of our committee is to encourage the Indian to become a full-fledged citizen, prepared to accept his full responsibility. Such a move would be a step in the right direction if he knew in the beginning that he was not giving up any of his ancient rights to enjoy the franchise.
As the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) said, these people made a tremendous contribution in both wars. I can think of the reserve adjacent to my own riding, Cape Croker, where their enlistment on a per capita basis was far greater than that of any other community I know of, and many of them made the supreme sacrifice. I realize that provision is made here for the Indian veteran to vote, and I am pleased to see an amendment to the act to permit that Indian's wife to vote. I hope that in considering this bill the committee will give serious consideration to the suggestions I have made with respect to the Indian reserves adjacent to or within electoral districts, where in the opinion of the Department of Indian Affairs the inhabitants of that reserve have reached such u xatis-

factory level of culture and development that they might exercise intelligently the franchise, even if in the beginning it is granted only to male Indians. There is a degree of backwardness amongst some of the women which I think could be corrected in due time through the educational advantages they are enjoying. In the beginning the franchise might be granted much on the same basis as we first enjoyed it, and after a time the women could be included, to make the job complete.
I want to say a word as to the suggestion offered by the members of the C.C.F. party with respect to young persons eighteen years of age. I have never been able to support this view. All too soon the burdens of national responsibility fall upon the shoulders of these young people. I wonder whether my hon. friend appreciates entirely what the franchise means or should mean. If we provide the franchise to the eighteen year olds, along with that franchise should go the responsibility of citizenship, the responsibility for debt, the responsibility of being sued in a court of law and subject to judgment being executed against him if one was obtained; the right to hold a liquor permit, the right to frequent beverage rooms and cocktail lounges, and everything else. I doubt whether we are prepared to go that far.
So far as the young men who enlisted are concerned, I can look back and take this view. I know that the young man of seventeen or eighteen who is full of enthusiasm, healthy and robust in physique, venturesome and willing to take a chance, would make an ideal soldier under the leadership that is provided for him. Because some of our greatest airmen were willing to venture and take a chance they made great names for themselves. The same thing applies to men in other branches of the armed services. But provision is already made in this act that even if the soldier were discharged from the armed forces, because of his enlistment he would still be entitled to the franchise irrespective of what his age might be when the election was called. Someone might say:	Well, that
will soon pass away; but I would be more impressed by the advantages of extending the franchise if those who now enjoy that right would roll out to the polls in greater numbers and exercise their right to vote. In other words, unless we can encourage our people to believe that the franchise holds something of advantage for them; unless we can impress upon them the great instrument the ballot really is and have them vote in larger numbers than thirty or forty or fifty per cent, why extend the franchise to those of younger years?-although I must say in my own riding

Dominion Elections Act
in both the by-election and the general election we polled well over seventy per cent of the eligible voters.
Of course, as the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) and the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Skey) has said, there are those who are shut in and unable to get to the polls. I am not prepared to say we should call for compulsory voting at this time, but I do believe that through the educational approach we should try to impress upon our young people the advantages the franchise offers. As the parent of young children I cannot think of anything of greater importance.
I believe that a man reaches mature judgment-I do not know that I would use that word literally, but certainly he reaches a stage of better judgment at twenty-five years than at twenty-one. I question very much if the youth of our land are prepared to accept this responsibility, subject to a poll tax and all the other obligations which go with it, at eighteen years of age.
I do not believe I have anything further to say, except to leave my appeal with the committee with respect to the Canadian Indian.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to mention only one or two points in connection with this bill. First I would point out that there is a principle in the act by which a person is deprived of the franchise because of his race. There is a section in the act which states that if a provincial legislature deprives a person of his franchise because of race, then automatically such person is deprived of his federal franchise.
I noted that in this connection the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) mentioned that persons of Japanese origin were allowed to vote if they had seen service in the armed forces. However, the principle I have mentioned, which applies only in British Columbia, does apply in that province. Despite that, of course, the Dominion Elections Act provides that if a person has seen military service he is qualified to vote.
However I would draw attention to this fact, that the right to vote in Canada is not based upon military service. The right to vote in this country is based upon citizenship. And in my opinion every citizen, regardless of race and regardless of any provincial law, should have the right to vote in a dominion election. If a province lives in the dark ages, that is no reason why the federal government should *lso live in the dark ages. Consequently, if
the committee does not change this provision then I hope the house, when the bill is before it, will remove this stain from our elections act.
I should like to say a word on the plea made by the hon. member for Grey North (Mr. Case) in connection with the vote for the Indians. I believe he suggested that some way should be found by which the Indians would be given the franchise and still retain what he described as their ancient rights. However, in view of the fact that the Indians are wards of the state, I do not see how they can be made citizens of Canada and remain wards of the state at the same time. It may be done; but it does not appear feasible to me. A citizen has to be a citizen with all his rights; and if he is a citizen with all his rghts he cannot be a ward of the state. On the other hand, if ho is a ward of the state he is not a citizen with full rights of citizenship. However, as a member of the committee I shall be glad to consider the question in the light of any information that may be brought before us.
The hon. member for Grey North also opposed the proposal made by the hon. member for Weybum (Mr. McKay) that the franchise should be given to citizens at eighteen years of age. He supported his opposition by various arguments, and indicated that if persons of eighteen years of age were to receive the right to vote they should receive various other rights such as having liquor permits, going into beer parlours, and cocktail lounges, et cetera. I assume that if he were to give the Indians the franchise they, too, would be able to have liquor permits and to frequent cocktail lounges. However, at the present time Indians cannot have those things legally. I should like to point out that we give a person of eighteen years of age the right to vote, if he has seen military service. If he is called upon to defend his country in time of need, then in my opinion he should have some say as to why that need arose which necessitated his risking his life. He should have some say as to why his country is at war. If we are to call upon young men and ask them to risk their lives in defence of their country, then surely they have reached sufficient maturity to vote for their representatives to parliament.
I should like to say a few words upon the other matter which has been discussed, namely, that of different systems of voting. Those members who praised the use of the alternative vote in Alberta and Manitoba for some reason or another were ignorant-if they were not ignorant of it, they did not mention
Dominion Elections Act

it-of the fact that in both those provinces they have not only the alternative vote but also proportional representation.


James Arthur Ross: Not in the same ridings.


Angus MacInnis: Of course not in the same ridings; you could not have proportional representation in a one-man riding. But the purpose is the same. The single transferable vote provides that before a person is elected he must have a majority of the votes cast. When the votes are counted the low candidates are counted out and the second and third choice go to the candidates in the field. That is continued until one person receives a majority of the votes cast.
It is interesting to note that this question of the single transferable vote has come to have such importance in the country at this time. I have been interested in proportional representation for many years and have advocated it. If we are to have the single transferable vote in one-member constituencies 1 suggest that in urban constituencies, where constituencies can be bunched, we have proportional representation.
I say that because there are two important points in connection with representation in parliament. One is that as nearly as possible the government in office should have a majority of the people behind it. The second is that significant groups within the country should have representation in parliament and in the legislatures in proportion to their members. Let me point this out, that with the single transferable vote, although every member elected might have a majority of the votes in his constituency, yet a government could be elected with the minority of the votes in the country. Consequently we may not be any farther ahead than we are at the present time.


James Arthur Ross: A minority of votes cast?
Mr. MadNNIS: A government could be elected; even with only two parties, a government could be elected with a minority of the votes cast, having regard to the total population. That is quite possible. I quite understand the attitude of my Conservative friends in this regard. They feel that their chances of being elected are getting less-


Mr. LENNARD:: Do not worry about that.


Angus MacInnis: -and that if they are elected at all, they will be elected on the second choice, of Liberal voters.


James Arthur Ross: Who had a minority of votes the last time?


Charles Elwood Stephenson: All the hon. member has to worry about is the communist vote. The communists are going to vote for the C.C.F.


Angus MacInnis: We are the only party in this house that rejected the communist vote-


Charles Elwood Stephenson: That does not help you. They are going to vote for you anyway.


Frank Exton Lennard: The hon. member for Vancouver East is wrong.


Angus MacInnis: -as has been pointed out.


Frank Exton Lennard: That is an absolute misstatement which the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Madnnis) has just made. He said his was the only party in the house which had rejected the communist vote. That is a misstatement.


Angus MacInnis: I say I cannot find' on record anywhere that any other party rejected the communist vote.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: The leader of the opposition said we did not want it.


James Arthur Ross: And that will be found in Hansard.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: The C.C.F. is the only party in the house the communists are going to vote for. That might malce a difference.


Angus MacInnis: At the proper time I will give this house an exposition-I believe that is the proper word-of what the communist word is worth; and I will quote chapter and verse.
As I said, I have been interested in proportional representation for quite a long time, and1 have been gathering information on it. I have in my hand an article which appeared in the Ottawa Citizen on February 4, 1943. It is a reprint of an editorial in the Winnipeg Free Press of January 19, 1943. This is what the Winnipeg Free Press had to say on the question of a new system of voting. I will not read it all, it is fairly long. This article is advocating both the alternative vote and proportional representation. In regard to proportional representation it says:
The election of the best men of all the groups could be practically assured by having them nominated in the cities with P.R. in operation. That is the effect of the larger multi-member constituency in which the single transferable vote is used. Leading government candidates and leading candidates of the Conservative party and the Labour party have been regularly elected in the provincial elections in Winnipeg.

Dominion Elections Act
Earlier in this article the Free Press had this to say:
It is significant to find support for this reform coming from the Montreal Gazette, usually not keen for new experiments.
Here we have the Conservative Montreal Gazette and the Liberal Free Press in full agreement and for the same reason.
The article continues:
Now it sees that the two-party system is gone and that "there are many ridings in Canada where the C.C.F. will win if Liberals and Conservatives both enter candidates and thus divide the non-Socialist vote." P.R. would remove this danger, it says and "it would prevent the extreme left from gaining power, or the balance of power, on a minority popular vote, an eventuality which appears increasingly likely under our present ballot system."
In another place in this article I believe, the Winnipeg Free Press pointed out that the old system was all right as long as it worked in the interests of the old parties; but the moment the old system has begun to work in the interest of the new parties, then the old system is bad and it should be changed. I have no objection to change when change is desirable; but I should like to find people advocating changes on principle, and not because the old system no longer favours them.


James Arthur Ross: Example: Saskatchewan.


Angus MacInnis: The Saskatchewan government was elected on the old system, and it is still going to the country on the old system.


James Arthur Ross: What did they do about bringing in this change they had in their platform?


Stanley Howard Knowles: They had a clear majority.


Angus MacInnis: They had a full majority, and I do not know what change my hon. friend is referring to.
I do not know that there is anything further I wish to say on this point. If it comes up in the committee I shall have something more to say on it. I am not opposed to electoral reforms that will assure the people of Canada the opportunity to exercise fully their democratic right of electing members to this house. But I would just warn my hon. friends to my right-and any on the opposite side of the house who think as they do, if there are any-that they might save a few years for themselves in office with a move of this kind, but eventually-


James Arthur Ross: Some of us have other things in life to do than this.


Angus MacInnis: -it will catch up with them and they will be in the position in which
they find themselves in British Columbia. No matter how much the Liberals and Conservatives hate it, they must work together if they are to prevent the C.C.F. from coming into office.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: And the communists.


Angus MacInnis: The communists will be with you, I say to my hon. friend, whenever they think there is anything to be gained from you.
I was greatly interested when in Victoria recently. A provincial by-election was being held close by. The seat that was to be filled had been held by a Liberal. A joint nominating convention was to be held, on this basis: The Conservative wing of the coalition could attend the nominating convention along with the Liberal wing, but the Conservatives could nominate only Liberal candidates to contest the seat. Before the nominating convention was called the Liberals nominated a candidate. When the Conservatives saw that, they would not attend the convention at all. In British Columbia the old parties are in an uneasy position. I do not wonder at my hon. friends wanting to keep out of it as long as possible. They are not going to keep out of it for long by merely changing the method of elections, although they may decide to abolish elections altogether. Who knows?


James Arthur Ross: We know who would like to do that.


Frank Exton Lennard: In these days, Mr. Speaker, it seems popular in some quarters and with some people to suggest that teen-agers should be given the franchise. I am not clear as to whether or not they want that privilege. As far as my own riding is concerned, only a few months ago at the Westdale collegiate, a large high school in that riding, this matter was taken up by the youth organization. It was ably argued against and voted down by a considerable majority. The same thing happened in the town of Dundas, in which I live; the high school there voted it down almost unanimously. So, as I say, I am not at all sure that these teen-agers are in sympathy with this movement on the part of a great many people who feel that it would be to their advantage to have this change.
I could not remain in my seat and allow this discussion to continue without stating that I am not at all sure these young people want the franchise.


Mr. RODNEY ADAMSON (York West):: Very briefly, Mr. Speaker, I want to oppose the single transferable vote. Despite the fact
Dominion Elections Act

that I personally am a minority representative, having received I think forty-four or forty-five per cent of the votes cast, I still believe the single transferable vote would complicate our voting procedure and furthermore would lend itself to a duplication of candidates with complex instructions to the electors how to cast the second vote. From the point of view of my own constituency, which is a large industrial constituency in Ontario, I see nothing but complication, confusion and a general lack of efficiency in the taking of a vote under this system.
I have not had any experience with the single transferable vote or with proportional representation, but I must also oppose proportional representation because almost always you find that the man whose name heads the ballot stands the greatest chance of election. So much is this the case that in many instances the names are jumbled alphabetically after every thousand or so ballots, so the people will not be influenced by the names at the top of the list and vote as they really wish. Proportional representation may be all very well for those of us whose names begin with the early letters of the alphabet, but I feel that individual contact between the elector and the candidate for whom he wishes to vote is the important contact to maintain. To confuse the matter by complicating the electoral machinery would, I think, not give as direct representation as we have at the present time, despite the faults in the present system which many of us in this house recognize.
I should like to mention one other matter which has to do with the boundaries of constituencies bordering cities, though I do not think it comes under the Representation Act. Certainly this matter concerns the four York ridings and probably a number of others contiguous to metropolitan areas. In almost all cases, for the purpose of constructing streets, the city boundary does not run down the centre line of a street bordering a city. The city boundary runs one lot, or sixty feet, behind the outside edge of the street. In other words, in the case of York West, people living in the front of an apartment house on Bloor street will vote in the city riding of High Park, while those across the hall in the same apartment building will vote in the county riding of York West. I want to suggest that this anomaly should be corrected, if at all possible. Certainly it confuses a great many voters who live in apartment houses, part of which are in one riding and part in another. Despite the fact that the city boundaries are not the same as the boundaries

of the ridings, I suggest that, in order to simplify the matter, whenever possible the centre street line be used as the constituency boundary.
Then I should like to add one word to the remarks of the hon. member for Grey North (Mr. Case) with respect to the eighteen-year-old having a liquor permit, and so on. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Mac-Innis) pounced upon that, which I suppose was to be expected; but the point is, are you going to make the eighteen-year-old, who is in many cases a high school student, a legal entity? Are- you going to make him capable of being sued and responsible for debt before the courts? Are you prepared to do that or are you not? That was the important question raised by the hon. member for Grey North, and it is an issue which I think should be decided. There is no question that the man who enlisted and fought obviously must be given the vote. That question is not pertinent at the moment, however, because the war has been over for a considerable period of time and those who fought in it will now be over the age of twenty-one.
Then it has been suggested that the ballot should be so designed as to indicate the political party of each candidate. That might be a useful innovation, despite the fact that in British countries we do not recognize political parties as such. Under our type of government these parties form the government and the opposition; unlike the United States, we do not recognize the political party as an entity. The United States system is to have political parties definitely shown on the ballot or, in their case, in the voting machine. This is an innovation which might be studied, but I would hesitate to give an opinion on it at the present time.


George Black: Mr. Speaker, earlier in the debate it was ruled that only the principle of this bill could be discussed, but I would observe that sections of the bill refer to the electoral district of Yukon-Mackenzie. There went through this house last session legislation which was entirely unprincipled and in favour of which no argument could be advanced. It was legislation that it was not necessary to enact. If that legislation continues on the statute books it will involve the legislation included in the bill now before the house.
That legislation set up as an electoral district two separate communities of people, each having nothing in common with the other. There was no community of interest. The people of Yukon trade with the west coast of Canada, whereas the people of the Mackenzie

Dominion Elections Act
district trade with the centre of Canada. The people in both these districts were unanimously opposed to that legislation, and they still are. A government majority in the house crowded that legislation through without regard to the wishes of the people concerned.
There was not one voice in those districts in favour of that legislation. It created a constituency of over 700,000 square miles, if one can imagine the immensity of that. It will be practically impossible for a candidate to get around the district and it will be impossible for the election officers properly to discharge their duties. It created' an electoral district as large as British Columbia and Alberta combined, or equal to the province of Quebec; yet it is to be represented by one member. That was done without any request being made to this government or to this House of Commons. It was passed in violation and regardless of the wishes of the people of the district.


Colin William George Gibson: What my hon. friend is saying really has nothing to do with the elections act. He is dealing with the provisions of the Representation Act.


George Black: We are dealing with the principle of this bill and there are sections in it which refer to the Yukon-Mackenzie constituency. The vote in favour of that legislation was sixty in favour and twenty against. The votes against were made up of nineteen Conservatives and Social Credit members. There was one Liberal who refused to be a party to that nefarious legislation.


Colin William George Gibson: I must object to the hon. member referring to legislation that was passed by this house last year as nefarious legislation. The matter he is dealing with does not come within the purview of the elections act. In referring to a bill passed at the last session of parliament I do not think the hon. member should refer to it as being nefarious legislation, because that is a reflection upon hon. members of this house.


William Henry Golding: It is not in order for an hon. member to reflect on legislation which has been approved by the house. As the minister has pointed out, the representation bill is separate entirely from this elections act. There is a section which refers to Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and the Yukon-Mackenzie constituency. It may be that the hon. member is referring to some point covered by that particular clause. If that is what he is trying to do I suggest that he confine his remarks to the clause and not deal with the representa-5849-211J
tion bill which was approved by the house. As I said before, it is not in order to reflect on legislation already approved by the house.


George Black: I know of no authority which says one cannot reflect on legislation passed by the house at this or any other session. It is not too late to undo the cruel wrong which was done to the people in these districts. The principle or lack of principle in the bill which was passed created the constituency of Yukon-Mackenzie, and I say it is not too late to undo the cruel wrong that was done by this House of Commons with a small majority. There were less than 100 members present when the vote took place and one minister of the crown was too manly to put through legislation in violation of the rights and wishes of the people.
If the government chooses it could now take out those sections that deal with the Yukon-Mackenzie constituency. That could be done at this session of parliament if the government chose to do it. It would be an answer to say there is not the requisite number of people in the Mackenzie district to entitle them to representation. The fact is that Yukon has never had the requisite number; but because of its isolated position, which compares with that of the people of Mackenzie, this parliament saw fit to give them representation. The same representation should be given to the people in the Mackenzie district. The government can do so if it wants to and undo the wrong that has been done.


Mr. BENOIT MICHAUD (Restigouche-Madawaska):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a few remarks, which I hope will bring about comments in one direction or another. In this country we have a strong belief that we live in a real democracy which is endowed with the best in the way of democratic institutions. That statement is probably as true and accurate in Canada as it would be anywhere else, but is it as true and accurate as it might be?
Many definitions have been given of democracy, some at variance with others. It is hard to decide which definition best serves the purpose; but perhaps a common one is as good as any other; that is, government of the people, by the people, for the people. "By the people" of course means the majority of the people, particularly those who express their views on the proper occasion.- People have the opportunity to express their views through agencies such as the radio, the press and different bodies and organizations, but by far the most efficient and decisive manner in
Dominion Elections Act

which the people can express their opinion is through the ballot on the occasion of an election.
Since this unique opportunity of a general election does not arise very often, it is of the utmost importance that we should have a government faithfully reflecting the opinion and views of the majority. Great care should be taken to see that the general expression of opinion given at a general election shall be given with the greatest possible degree of freedom.
In order to make democracy workable, this greatest possible degree of freedom in the marking of the ballot should be followed up with an equal degree of freedom when the elected representatives of the people are called upon to cast their votes on the floor of the house. In this debate I cannot discuss this latter aspect of the problem of the freedom of the vote on the floor of the house except to the limited extent to which it may be met through amendments to the Dominion Elections Act. I may, later on, refer to it.
Let me first deal with the suggestion which in my opinion would lead to a freer and more accurate expression of opinion on election day. This could be brought about only through further amendments to the elections act. In the first place, there is a serious problem, the matter of election costs to candidates or to whoever supplies the campaign funds. Campaign funds are no secret. It is a fact publicly known to the people of this country, and it has been admitted, without great criticism. But I think today we are beginning to meet more criticism on that aspect of our democratic institutions. I feel that I could put up a fairly good case to defend and justify this modern institution of campaign funds. I am prepared to admit that there are two aspects of the problem. At the same time, in an academic discussion or in a public forum I think I would rather defend the other view, namely, that party funds should be eliminated. This need not necessarily affect personal contributions coming from personal friends of the candidate within the county. I think there would be no great objection to that provided that fact were known to the public.
In order to bring about this much needed reform, I feel that the elections act should be amended in many respects, and in such a way as to provide under the act for more financial assistance to candidates. With that object in view, I should like to suggest that the elections act be amended in such a way as (1), to pay reasonable remuneration to the election agents of all candidates, not more than one per poll; <2) to pay reasonable amounts for publicity,

be it through radio, the press or otherwise; (3) to pay reasonable expenses for the use of halls and travelling expenses. What are reasonable expenses for radio, the press, halls, and so forth, would depend to a large extent upon the size of the constituency, its locality, the density of its population and the publicity agencies therein.
In order to offset to some extent this increase in election costs, I would urge that the amount of the deposit of candidates be raised from $200 to $1,000. This would discourage straw or nuisance candidates. I would urge that deposits of unsuccessful candidates be disposed of on a slightly more equitable basis. Refunds could be made on the basis of a percentage of the votes obtained by each unsuccessful candidate as compared with the total number of votes collected by the successful candidate. For instance, suppose that the elected candidate received 10,000 votes and the runner-up 8,000; the runner-up receiving 8,000 would be entitled to a refund of 80 per cent of his deposit. Another candidate receiving 4,000 votes would be entitled to a refund of 40 per cent of his deposit, and one receiving 1,000 votes would be entitled to only a 10 per cent refund of his deposit. If that principle had prevailed in the 1945 election the government would have collected larger amounts of forfeited money. For instance, in the constituency of Verdun forfeited deposits would have amounted to $7,800, instead of $1,800. In the constituency of Vancouver South they would have amounted to $3,240 instead of $800, and finally in my own riding of Restigouche-Madawaska forfeited moneys would have amounted to $2,200 instead of $600. I submit that these sums would go a long way toward the payment of the additional election expenses which I have just advocated.
On the other hand, this deposit of $1,000 required from each candidate would not constitute an undue burden on him because he would receive considerably more than that amount for his benefit in the nature of paid publicity and other election expenses. At the same time this larger deposit would act as a deterrent to straw or nuisance candidates, such as the one we had in the Glengarry byelection.


Mr. PROBE:: Which one was that?


Benoît Michaud: The total costs of the 1945 general election amounted to $2,850,000. With 255 seats it should run to approximately $3,000,000. This amount spread over a five-year period gives an average of $600,000 a year. This amount of $600,000 a year represents only three-hundredths of one per cent

Dominion Elections Act
of the annual budget of, say $2 billion. The cost of the election in Restigouche-Madawaska amounted to approximately $11,000, which is a very fair average compared with the total cost.
The payments by government which I have advocated would probably average between $2,000 and $3,000 per candidate, and in the case of a four-cornered fight, these would give a total of approximately $11,000. In other words, it would just about double the cost of the election, without taking into consideration the additional forfeited money which might result as I have explained. If we assume that it would just double the cost of the election, the total cost would only be six-hundredths of one per cent of the annual budget, and I submit that this is not an exorbitant proportion. I submit that those expenses are warranted because they would offer greater freedom of action to the candidate, and I think they would go a long way toward restoring the confidence of the people by assuring them that no funds of unknown origin were used to help candidates. Some will likely object and say that this is another impossible dream, and that it is impossible to change the set-up. It might be difficult of achievement under the present state of the law; but if the law were amended, if sufficient teeth were put in it, I submit that it should be possible to bring about these amendments which I consider desirable.
The time has come when this matter of election funds should be looked into a little further. Under the present set-up, many good candidates are prevented from going into politics on account of the difficulties experienced in financing an election. If the facts were laid before the general public I believe they would have no objection to the reforms which I am advocating.
There is another suggestion which I wish to make before concluding, and on which I should like to have the opinion of some hon. members in the course of the discussion. I understand that the bill will go to committee and that we shall have ample opportunity to discuss the different sections. The time has come when we should have in this country some mitigated form of compulsory voting. Some countries have compulsory voting but I do not know how it works out. Possibly we could have something a little less stringent. Some people take no interest in public affairs. They do not want to be bothered; they do not want to go to the polls. Others take the view that politics is so complex, so difficult to understand and to follow, that they would rather refrain from taking an interest and from exercising the right of franchise. Well, that
is the privilege we enjoy in a democracy. The fact remains that in 1945, 24 per cent of the Canadian people did not exercise their franchise. On the other hand, in some provinces, for instance, Saskatchewan, a much larger percentage did go to the polls, and in some constituencies of Saskatchewan, and even British Columbia, I think the vote was as high as 93 per cent. If we are to believe the reports that we read in the press in connection with the recent elections in Italy it would appear that approximately 90 per cent of the people did exercise their franchise.


Mr. LOW:: Did they force them there?


Benoît Michaud: I do not know; I do not believe they did.


Solon Earl Low: What good is a compulsory vote?


Benoît Michaud: Well, my suggestion would be this. It would simplify the work of candidates from all sides if this mitigated form of compulsory voting were exercised somewhat along these lines. People abstaining from voting would be given, let us say, three months to appear before a county court judge or perhaps the returning officer to show cause why they did not vote. If they were in a position to show cause, then everything would be well done.


Solon Earl Low: Didn't they try that in
Australia?


Benoît Michaud: I am sorry; I am not familiar with what has been tried and done in Australia. Then, at any time prior to the calling of the next election those who defaulted or refrained from voting at the previous election would be given an opportunity of paying a small fine and qualifying themselves to vote at the coming election. Failing that, I suggest that if they are not interested, if they have evinced no interest in public affairs, their names should be deleted from the election lists of that election.
These are a few suggestions which are strictly of a personal nature, particularly those referring to election expenses. Election expenses should be considered with a view to improving further our elections act which I believe is commendable in many ways; but since we amend it before every election, it shows that there is room for improvement. I suggest that there is room for improvement to some extent along the lines of the remarks I have just made.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words only because of the remarks which have been made by the hon. member for
Dominion Elections Act

Restigouche - Madawaska (Mr. Michaud). Sometimes one notices that when novel suggestions such as he has made are put forth on the floor of the house and no one replies to them, the stories that appear in the press indicate that they were well received. I feel that it would not be wise in this instance for hon. members to let that happen, and I for one would like to express opposition to some of the suggestions of the hon. member for Restigouche-M'adawaska.
I thoroughly agree with the purpose that he indicated in the early part of his remarks when he spoke about the fact that people do not know the source of some contributions to campaign funds. I would go along with him in urging that legislation such as we had in the Dominion Elections Act at one time with respect to this matter be restored. I have not the act in front of me, but if my memory serves me aright there was at one time a prohibition against political parties or political candidates in the federal field receiving contributions from incorporated companies. In due course, by amendment, that ban was struck out of the act. Whether it is that which should be put back or something else, I am not prepared at this moment to say; but I agree with him that in many instances there is a loss of confidence on the part of electors because of questions that arise as to the sources of campaign funds. I fear, however, despite all the research that the hon. member obviously has done in this matter, his suggestion does not fill the bill.
The hon. member proposes that under certain specified headings the government pay the election costs of a candidate's campaign; perhaps that the official agent receive certain expenses and that the candidate receive expenses for certain specified items such as halls, advertising and so on. He indicated that, as he was working it out, it might mean the government paying each candidate a total of some $2,000 or $3,000.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: There
would be plenty of candidates.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is exactly the point. The hon. member for Restigouche-Madawaska proposes that this extra expense be offset in part by increasing the deposit from the present figure of $200 to the figure of $1,000, which in my view is a step in the wrong direction. The hon. member said that this would have the effect of keeping nuisance candidates out of the field. I think the hon. member for Comox-Alberni has it in the back of his mind right now that if by putting up
[Mr. Knowles.J
$1,000 you could get $2,000 or $3,000 out of the government the number of nuisance candidates would greatly multiply.


Arthur Leroy Smith: A three to one bet is not bad.


Stanley Howard Knowles: 
James Horace King: When the minister speaks he will close the debate.


Colin William George Gibson: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair) spoke about the harmony and good will which existed in the committee last year. I should like to go farther and congratulate the committee upon the excellent work that it did in studying and revising the act.
I would point out that this year we have practically the same personnel on the committee which will consider the bill. The chief
electoral officer has some further suggestions to offer to the committee, and we have received other suggestions in the house this afternoon. I have no doubt that when the committee sits it will show the same diligence and the same spirit of harmony and good will which existed before, and that it will bring down a bill which will receive the approval of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the special committee on the Dominion Elections Act, 1938.	.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Fisheries) moved the second reading of Bill No. 35, respecting the provisional fur seal agreement between Canada and the United States.
Mr. W. CHESTER S. McLURE (Queens): Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a few brief remarks concerning this bill, about the principle of which I have spoken on several other occasions.
This bill has for its purpose the carrying out of the pelagic sealing provisions between Canada and the United States, as set out in the agreements of 1942 and 1947. The bill represents something more than the mere carrying out of those agreements. Its purpose is to put into the Pelagic Sealing Act such teeth as for the future will assure both the United States and Canada that pelagic sealing will be a thing of the past.
I am not going into the history of the fur seal trade, because there are other hon. members who will discuss that part of the subject. I would point out, however, that the United States purchased Alaska in 1867 and, as they term it, made the greatest territorial purchase or bargain ever known to the world. At that time they paid for Alaska $7,200,000 and, while it was a large territory about one-fifth the size of the United States, there came with it a herd of fur seals numbering almost four million. This then was the property of the United States. There were, however, entanglements with other countries bordering that area. These have been dispensed with through the years.
After the purchase in 1867 by the United States, nothing was done in connection with maintaining the herd until about 1911. It was found that, because of extensive pelagic sealing, from 1867 the herd of about four million had been reduced to 125,000. The danger facing them at that time was the extinction of this great fur seal trade of Alaska.
Provisional Fur Seal Agreement
[Stage Direction]
In 1911 the English, the Russians, the Japanese and the United States governments put into effect a treaty which gave the United States entire control of the seal herd of Alaska. Today there are only two partners, Canada and the United States. The United States get 80 per cent of the herd seal pelts that are taken off each year, and Canada is entitled to 20 per cent. If we do not have a proper, strong Pelagic Sealing Act that will take care of this great, industry, Canada's 20 per cent will not be worth much to her in years to come. That is one reason why I hope the committee of the whole, in going over this act, will examine every part of it in order to make it as strong as possible, both in our own interests and in those of the United States.
Since 1911 the United States have taken over one million pelts or skins, which have brought in to them more than twelve times the amount they paid for the whole of Alaska and the fur sealing trade.
One more thing I wish to emphasize in reference to this matter is that today we have more interest shown in the House of Commons with regard to the fur seal trade than we have had for a good many years. Interest is being taken in it because it produces quite a large revenue to the fisheries department of our government. I might say that at the present time, even when furs in general are at a little lower price, the recent sale of furs which was held on April 19 showed that the three types of seal skins, in which Canada as well as the United States, has an interest, sold at wonderfully good prices, even under today's fur depression as we might call it.
The dyeing and processing of these fur seal skins is done in two different countries: London, England, and St. Louis, Missouri. During the war the processing was not as good in London as it had been in St. Louis, because of conditions over which they had no control. However, the processing in St. Louis has developed so much that today it is acknowledged to be finest processing system for seal skins anywhere in the world, and this is shown by the three classes of skins they process, machine and dye. The skins are put out in three colours: safari, matara and black. The black is a glossy skin, and in the last sale averaged some $47. The safari is a unique kind of colour. It might be called a rich seal brown. It nearly held the spotlight, and averaged $65 per skin. The matara is a kind of neutral colour, brown with a bluish cast, and in the sale of some 10,000 skins it averaged S75 per pelt. I mention this just because Canada is greatly interested today. Some
5,000	skins are today being processed in St. Louis. Three thousand of them have arrived

in Montreal already, and will be sold at an early day-some time in June-for the benefit of the fur manufacturers of Canada.
In connection with this I might also say that the government or the fisheries department at the present time stand in the position that, by looking carefully into this industry, they have and can have a net revenue of at least a million dollars a year. Perhaps some of it may be swallowed up in duty on the skins coming into Canada because, when these skins go to St. Louis to be processed and are brought back into Canada, the national revenue department take away from the fisheries department some 12-[ per cent by way of duty. However, it is just going into a different pocket in the government.
Although I am not quite certain as to the amount, I think the cost of processing these skins is somewhere around $14 per skin. If I am wrong in this the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. MacKinnon) will correct me. It may be a little more or a little less. What I wanted to say in reference to the matter is this. We might in the future consider a proposition to have the processing done in Canada. The only way we might approach it is to ask the fur company in St. Louis to place an extra factory in Canada for processing our share of these pelts.
Again I want to repeat that in this act there are some things which might be made a little bit more drastic. For instance, I notice that, under certain conditions, certain individuals living in the north-the aborigines, the Aleuts and others-are allowed the right themselves to take on pelagic sealing. Personally I think that when we come to committee of the whole, those are things which we should look into carefully. As I said at the beginning, let us put all the teeth we possibly can into this act in order to save one of the greatest industries in the fur trade of Canada.
Hon. J. A. MaoKINNON (Minister of Fisheries) : I had intended, Mr. Speaker, to make a short statement on second reading of this bill. However, the hon. member for Queens (Mr. McLure) got ahead of me for the moment. Before making this statement, I should like to compliment him' on the speech he has just made, and for the knowledge he shows he has with regard to the sealing industry.
While my statement is short, it is longer than might be required under this bill; because, as far as I know, and as far as I can see, there is little of a contentious nature in it. But in making the statement I want to anticipate questions that might be asked me later.
The purpose of this bill is to carry out Canada's obligations under the provisional fur

Provisional Fur Seal Agreement
seal agreement made between Canada and the United States in 1942. The terms of this agreement are printed as schedule A of this measure.
In 1911 an agreement was reached to regulate, by international action, the killing of fur seals in the north Pacific. In that year Canada, acting through the United Kingdom, entered into the first pelagic sealing convention with the United States, Russia and Japan. All parties observed the terms of this convention until 1941. As a result of its abrogation by the Japanese government, this initial agreement came to an end about the time of Japan's entry into the second world war.
Canada and1 the United States were anxious to continue their joint efforts to preserve and protect the seal herds. A provincial fur seal agreement was therefore entered into by our two countries in 1942. But the Canadian legislation giving effect to this agreement was based on the War Measures Act. This meant, of course, that the life of the agreement was subject to a definite time limit. Accordingly the purpose of this bill is to enact legislation extending the life of the 1942 agreement for an indefinite period.
In the main, provisions of the original 1911 international convention are incorporated in the present Canadian-United States agreement. The principal changes may be briefly summarized as follows:
(a)	An increase in the Canadian share of fur seal skins taken annually at Pribilof islands from 15 per cent to 20 per cent.
(b)	A provision for enabling pelagic sealing under emergency circumstances. Details regarding conditions under which such emergency sealing might be conducted and the sharing of seal skins so taken are to be the subject of consultation between the two governments.
(c)	A provision for permitting the taking of fur seals for purposes of scientific research.
(d)	A provision that the two governments consult from time to time regarding the level of population at which the seal herd is to be maintained or other important phases of management or policy.
I do not propose to review in detail the extensive and interesting background of this sealing question. Briefly, the situation is that the breeding grounds of the fur seals are located on islands in the north Pacific. The seals breed during summer months and then swim to about the latitude of southern California before returning to the islands in the spring. The term "pelagic sealing" refers to the killing or capture of these fur seals at sea when they are migrating to and from their northern breeding grounds.
An international agreement was necessary in order to prevent the complete extinction of
these seals from the effects of unrestricted slaughter. In 1867, when the United States took over Alaska, there were nearly five million such seals. By 1911 the population had dropped to less than 125,000. By 1947, as a result of conservation measures, this number had increased to 3,600,000. These figures speak for themselves.
Canadian revenues as a result of the treaty and under its provisions have amounted to $5,482,141.15 since 1912. The consolidated revenue fund of Canada benefits in the following manner. Every fifth barrel of raw skins obtained by the United States government at the breeding grounds is stencilled for Canada. The skins are brought to Seattle by the United States and shipped from there to London, England, or to St. Louis in proportions governed by the decision of the Canadian government. When the skins are dressed and dyed at these centres they are returned to Canada for sale in Montreal through the Canadian Fur Auction Sales Company, which acts as government agent in these transactions. The proceeds, as I have indicated, go to the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.
The provisions of this bill follow closely the contents of the Pelagic Sealing Act of 1938 enacted by this parliament to carry out the terms of the 1911 convention. The 1938 legislation came to an end, of course, as a result of the abrogation of the treaty in 1941. The only changes made by this bill are those required by a few modifications of the original 1911 agreement and the necessity for clarification on some minor points.
There is one principal exception to the restrictions imposed by the treaty. This relates to the provision that pelagic sealing may be carried on by Indians and other aborigines dwelling on the coasts of the waters to which the agreement refers. These sealing operations so permitted must, however, be carried on by means of canoes and without the use of firearms. These conditions are provided, because the existence of any large scale catching or killing equipment in the hands of the exempted persons might well open the door to serious abuses.
These are the main provisions of the legislation now before the house. I should add that Canada, under the treaty arrangement, undertakes to give the United States 20 per cent of any seals captured on Canadian territory.
Mr. GREEN:: Is Russia under the agreement?


Mr. MacKINNON:: Russia is not under the agreement. As a matter of fact, however, practically no seals are captured or killed on
Provisional Fur Seal Agreement

Canadian land. On the other hand, as I have stated, Canada receives 20 per cent of the total catch from herds on United States territory as compensation for prohibiting Canadians from sealing activities on the high seas.
There is little doubt that these treaty undertakings have saved the Pacific seal herd from extinction. Nearly a million pelts have been taken since the first treaty was signed, but without harmful effect. In 1911 the seal industry was drifting to absolute ruin. Today, because of what has been done through international action, the industry is in a healthy, thriving state and soundly established on a permanent basis.


Howard Charles Green: When did Russia drop out?


James Angus MacKinnon: In recent years; during the war.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. G. R. PEARKES (Nanaimo):: Mr. Speaker, I crave your indulgence this evening to speak on this bill because I am one of the few, if not the only member who has seen this animal in its natural environment. I have seen the islands which are alike its breeding and1 killing grounds. This treaty was made in 1911 between Great Britain representing Canada, the United States, Russia and Japan. At that time we were at the close of a century during which the fur trade had played a tremendous part in the economy of the world. As hon. members know, Baranoff, the great Russian fur merchant, colonized the Aleutian islands, the Pribilof islands and what is now Alaska. He entered into a treaty with the fur traders of America. As I say, furs played a tremendously important part in the national economy of all the countries concerned and provided a most lucrative business.
The early fur traders built up a kind of mystery around this seal fur trade. They started off by giving extraordinary names to the various branches of their activities. Pelagic sealing means nothing more than the killing of seals in the water. It is a ridiculous name. When citizens of Edmonton come to spend their summer holidays on the gulf islands in my constituency we do not refer to them as pelagic Edmontonians.
I think it would be worthwhile for a moment to investigate the reasons why these treaties were first made. They were made with the

idea of preserving the seals, so that the rich skins might be sold to the aristocracy of Europe and the newly made millionaires of the United States. It was found that you could not control the killing of seals if they were killed in the water. As soon as they come on to their breeding grounds, there is an opportunity for wholesale slaughter of these defenceless animals and there is also an opportunity to control the slaughter.
The seals come on the land for breeding purposes. An old bull seal will collect around him a harem of some sixty female seal cows. Those are not the animals that are killed. Because of the peculiarities of natural history, the younger males have to remain back from the breeding ground, contenting themselves as best they can until they are old enough and are able to entice some of the virgin cows. These are technical names used in the trade.
The younger males are kept back from the breeding grounds until they are old enough to gather a harem. It is at this time that the native Aleuts and Indians drive them away a short distance and knock them on the head. This business of killing is a messy one and very few white men will indulge in it. But it can be regulated and the numbers killed oan be controlled by government inspection, because the carcasses are laid out in rows of tens and hundreds and so forth. It is all controlled; so many are killed each year.
When they are killed in the water there is no control as to what sex of seal is killed. It is quite impossible to distinguish a young male from a young female, and you may kill a mother who has a pup on the land in what are called the rookeries. The mother suckles the baby seal and does not take it out into deep water.
Great destruction was done in those early days. As was mentioned earlier this afternoon, at one time before the treaty was made the herd numbered over 4,000,000 fur seals. Then the indiscriminate killing occurred and the number in the herd dropped down until in 1910 there were no more than 133,000 fur seals. At that time restrictions were put on the number killed and the herd increased, until today it is estimated to be in the neighbourhood of 3,000,000 animals. I want to call the attention of hon. members to that increase since 1910 from 133,000 to 3,000,000 animals.
Why are these animals preserved? That is the big question. They are preserved so that their skins may be sold to make expensive furs for a very fancy trade. It is still a lucrative trade. The last figures which I received from

Provisional Fur Seal Agreement
the department show that in 1947 some 12,289 skins were delivered to Canada as her share and these brought $994,061 in profits to Canada. The question I want to ask is this: At what expense was that $994,061 worth of skins obtained?
I have pointed out that at one time the herd was much larger than it is now, and that it is very much on the increase. These animals live on fish. They are on the Pribilof islands for only a couple of months during the summer when they live on shell fish and decomposed matter. During the rest of the year they range the Pacific ocean, some travelling across to the Siberian shore and others going down the west coast of the continent of America as far as California. While they are moving back and forth they are living on the fish which constitutes the food for the people of this world-fish food that is caught by the fishermen of British Columbia. From estimates which have been made of seals in captivity and by various expeditions which have been carried out by the United States, it has been calculated that the seal herd of a few years ago ate more than the total catch of commercial fishing from Alaska, British Columbia, Washington. Oregon and California. I quote from a report which was produced by Mr. W. McLeod Chapman, who is a biologist of the department of fisheries of the state of Washington. This was published in the California publication, Fish and Game, of October, 1942:
The herd of fur seals now includes more than
2.500.000	individuals. From such data as are now- available it would appear that this herd, at a minimum figure, consumes in excess of
2.500.000	pounds of fish each year in the area from the Pribilof islands to California. This is roughly the annual production of food fish by all the commercial fisheries of Alaska, British Columbia, Washington, Oregon and California.
Millions of tons of small fish are eaten by these animals. A full grown fur seal will weigh anywhere from 350 to 600 pounds. It consumes, so it has been estimated, no less than forty pounds of fish a day, when living on what one might call an austerity diet; that is almost a starvation diet.
We find that Russia has withdrawn from this treaty and Japan has withdrawn from it. Why? Russia has a fur seal herd smaller than the Pribilof herd and it has its rookeries on the Commander islands off the coast of Siberia. There is a smaller Japanese herd off some of the islands off the main islands of Japan. Russia and Japan have withdrawn from this treaty because they realize that these fur seals destroy far more fish than the value of their skins is worth.
5849-212J
There has been in recent years a distinct reduction in the catch of certain types of small fish. I am not suggesting for one moment that a fur seal tackles a full-grown salmon. Oh, no; they eat the smaller fry; they eat the herring; they eat the pilchards. There is a big demand now for herring and a market is opening up again in Asia for the salted herring of British Columbia waters. Those are the type of fish which these marauding animals devour in great quantities. I say that the figures show that there has been a distinct reduction in the number of fish of that type caught in those waters in recent years, in spite of the improved equipment for catching fish of that type. I am not suggesting that the increase in the fur seal herd is the only cause of the reduction in the number of herring that are caught, but I claim that it is very much one of the contributing causes.
I feel, Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of maudlin sentiment created around these fur seals. It all started when Rudyard Kipling years ago wrote a delightful little story in the "Jungle Book" about a dear little baby fur seal. I suppose every hon. member, when he was a child, saw some performing seal balancing a ball on the end of its nose. Oh, we loved the dear little seal. There have been all these fantastic names to describe the rookeries and the pups. Whoever heard of a pup being born in a rookery? A rookery is where rooks nest. Pups are born on the ground. But all these romantic names, the bachelor bull, the virgin cow, the rookeries and all the rest of it, have been created, with the result that, I suggest, a maudlin sentiment has been built around these poor little animals.
What did we get out of this agreement at an expense equal to the total catch of all the commercial fish on the Pacific coast from Alaska to California? We got 20 per cent of the kill; 20 per cent of the hides that had been cured. Does that give us any employment? Last year, 1947, there were as Canada's share some 12,289 skins. We had no part in the killing or stripping of the carcasses, that was all done by the Americans, done with native labour, by the Aleuts and by the Indians of Alaska. Those hides were shipped past Canadian ports, past Prince Rupert, past Vancouver, shipped in United States bottoms to Seattle, where they were transported by rail. From Seattle we pay the cost of transportation to a United States firm of furriers. Of those 12,000 skins last year, some 8,602 skins were cured in the United States, the remainder, or some 3,687 skins, were cured in Great Britain, in London. No Canadian labour was employed in the curing of those skins. Canada
Provisional Fur Seal Agreement

paid for the curing of those skins, as has already been stated this afternoon, at the rate of $14 or more per skin. Then at Canada's expense they are sent to Montreal, some but not all of them, because I inquired from the ministry the other day as to the number of skins which were sold outside Canada, and was informed that last year we sold outside Canada, from Canada's share, some $66,450 of skins which never reached Canada at all. I suggest that this is giving no employment whatever to Canadian men in the curing or selling of those skins until they reach the auctioneer in Montreal where, I suppose, he draws his salary for selling them.
During the last war it was found that the skins which were being sent over to Great Britain could not be cured, partly because the manpower of England was required in the services. An attempt was made to ship out equipment and to send a limited number of trades specialists to Canada with the idea of starting the curing process here. The question 3 should like to ask is this, why cannot we *obtain the patents for the special process of curing these skins? I believe there are some fourteen different processes through which these skins go in the curing.


Mr. McLURE:: One hundred and twenty-six processes.


George Randolph Pearkes: The skins go through 126 processes before they are actually cured. That will give the house some idea as to the highly technical nature of the work and the difficulties there would be in establishing the industry in Canada. But these difficulties are not insurmountable if we are anxious to develop this luxury trade. I feel that this is probably a lucrative business; if I might be pardoned for making something of a pun, I would say that we- are concealing big profits made by the company as well as low-neck dresses under fancy sealskin coats for Hollywood actresses, and if that is to be done, why should we not carry out this process in Canada? Therefore I suggest to the minister that he refer this bill to the standing committee on fisheries, because I believe that far more investigation is required than this house is competent of giving at the present time. I think we want to get the reports from the cruiser which has been sent out by the state of Washington to examine into the exact diet of these fur seals. Remember, there is a distinct difference between the fur seal and the hair seal. The hair seal lives in the waters close to the shore; it inhabits the mouth of the Fraser river and does a great deal of damage to the salmon as they go up to the spawning grounds. But

the fur seal is able-again I use this horrible pun because I cannot think of a better word- to conceal its activities by working some fifteen, twenty or more miles out from the coast.
At the present time I understand that an investigation is being carried out by the fish and game department of the state of Washington in order to ascertain the amount of damage which is being done. Therefore I wish to suggest, in the first place, that this bill be referred to the standing committee on fisheries, which has not met during this session. I think we can get much valuable information from a detailed examination of the various clauses of the bill.
Then I should like to suggest in the interests of the fisheries of British Columbia that a definite limit be agreed upon as to the size of the herd. The minister referred to discussions taking place as to the population of the herd and said that it would be agreed upon from time to time between Canada and the United States. That is not good enough, because under the old treaty, and I believe it is in the present bill, the United States has the control to say what regulations may be imposed and the number that will be killed. It was only a few years ago that the United States prohibited all killing of seals on the land as well as at sea. That, of course, meant an increased growth of the herd. If the predominant influence is to be the production of fancy sealskin coats we may find again that there is a demand, or pressure is used-, to increase the herd. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, at this time that food is far more urgently needed than sealskin coats. What I should like to see is a definite ceiling placed on the size of this herd.
My third is this:	I should like to have it
definitely agreed upon that the seals will be delivered at such Pacific coast ports as Prince Rupert and Vancouver. I know they have to be delivered in United States bottoms. United States ships will have to pick up the sealskins as they are killed in the islands, but they can be delivered there and can be transported to Canadian factories either on the Pacific coast or in Toronto or Montreal, where an industry, as was suggested by the hon. member for Queens (Mr. McLure), could be established, so that the curing process which is used either by the London firm or by the United States firm could be established in Canada to give emplo.vment to Canadian furriers, instead of our merely having these skins cured in the United States.
Finally, I should like to suggest to the minister that in many parts of this country we are building a fur breeding or a fur farming industry in which in captivity various animals such as muskrats, mink, foxes and so forth are

Provisional Fur Seal Agreement
being raised. One might say that we are producing synthetic furs. That is a growing industry. Should we not be encouraging that industry, which in many parts of the country is still in its infancy, rather than specializing on the production of skins from an animal which spends the greater part of his life, and which lives to the age of eighteen or twenty years, in consuming food which eventually would be fit and desirable for human consumption?


Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to have to keep you in the chair for a few minutes longer, but this discussion has intrigued me. I recommend that the caption on today's Hansard should be "The love life of the seal", and it would be widely read. After listening to the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Pearkes), I want to compliment him upon his knowledge of the subject.
He must have made quite a study of it. However I was more particularly interested in the latter part of his remarks, where he dealt with the agreement itself and the mechanics of the marketing of this product, in which the government is so much interested.
I support him in his contention that this bill should go to the fisheries committee for further study. This afternoon the minister made an interesting statement. In his statement today he advanced an excellent argument for government ownership of industry. First he told us that this industry, under free enterprise as it existed up to the agreement between Russia, Canada and the United States, and the later agreement between the United States and Canada, had been freely exploited, without any regard for the perpetuation of the seals. They were killed off, and the industry had practically died.
Free enterprise killed them, as it is doing with many of our natural resources in this country. Free enterprise is merely exploiting them, and not thinking about those who will come in the future. In connection with the sealing industry, the government stepped in; indeed I should say two governments stepped in, those of Canada and the United States, and rescued the sealing industry from those who had wrecked it. The facts are there; the minister said so this afternoon. And they have done a fairly decent job. Not only have they provided fur coats for those who can afford them, but they have pretty well rehabilitated the industry.
I was particularly interested in the point which was brought out to the effect that the Canadian government pays for the shipping and pi'ocessing of the raw furs. Also in the
United States they pay for the shipping and processing. Those furs are sent to Great Britain and, as the hon. member for Nanaimo pointed out, this provides in this country no labour which would serve as compensation to our people. That is money spent on the outside.
The point I would ask the minister to clarify is this: why cannot that raw fur be processed in this country, thus saving shipping charges to Great Britain and the United States? Secondly, if the government pays the shot to put that fur into a condition in which it can be marketed, why should it ship that fur out when it is ready for market to some private firm in Montreal, permitting that firm to sell it and make the profit from it?


John Lambert Gibson: Oh, oh.


Clarence Gillis: This subject of whales and seals is the subject of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni. If he will just let me finish with the mechanics and the economic end of the industry, then he can handle the blubber.


Stanley Howard Knowles: He will be wailing before the night is over.


Clarence Gillis: I would ask the minister to explain why these furs cannot be processed in Canada, particularly as the government pays the total cost; at least that is my understanding of it from the statement made by the minister and by the hon. member for Nanaimo. Why cannot the government market the product through a crown company? Why should it be handed over to some private company simply for the purposes of sale, so that, they may make the greatest amount of profit from the transaction? These are people who have nothing to do with this agreement at all.
Ihere is no section in the agreement which compels the government to do this. The ministei stated that the exchequer has benefited to the extent of some $5,000,000 since the inception of the agreement. I should like to know how much money this private company has made through the marketing of the furs for the processing of which the money was paid by the government. If the minister can give us that information and if he can tell us why the government cannot follow through and market the product, and why the raw fur cannot be processed in Canada, then there may be no necessity to send this bill back to the committee.
Otherwise, however, I think the committee on fisheries should have an opportunity of overhauling this bill. This is too important a matter to let it go through with only the short explanation we have had with respect

Provisional Fur Seal Agreement
to it, particularly after the doubts which were raised in my mind by the hon. member for Nanaimo.


John Lambert Gibson: Mr. Speaker, I think I should say a few words on this matter, because perhaps I am the only old seal hunter and seal buyer in the house. Perhaps I would do well if I were to clear up some of the misapprehensions which appear to be in the mind of the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis), who is undoubtedly a great authority on coal. But if one may judge from his most recent remarks, the hon. member knows very little about the sealing business.
He seems greatly concerned about the fact that these sealskins are sold in Montreal by a private firm. I can assure him that they are sold there in one of the greatest fur auction markets in the world, and that they are sold to the highest bidder. And despite the success, or lack of it, of the Saskatchewan government's venture into the marketing of fur, I can tell him that I would be greatly adverse to our government settirig up any such agency to handle these few sealskins. I think we do very nicely at very small cost in disposing of these skins at the highest world market prices.
Something too was mentioned about the fact that this industry under free enterprise had finally been run into the ground. There is such a thing as free enterprise within one's own country and also free enterprise within the world. I think everyone realizes that at one time five great nations were fighting for the privilege of getting these seals, and it was not found possible for them all to get together and to decide on a proper procedure. It is only recently that Canada and the United States have been able to go in together with a view properly to safeguard the breeding grounds on the Pribilof islands where these seals have been given an opportunity to propagate, and have developed into great herds.
I might say that I feel particularly sorry for the Indians involved. I was not in the house tonight earlier, so that I do not know whether they have been mentioned or not. The fact is, however, that in the early days on the British Columbia coast the taking of sealskins was one of the great means of earning a livelihood for our Indians there. Schooners from Victoria and San Francisco used to call at west coast ports, pick up a load of Indians and their wives, and take them all over the world chasing seals. They would start off at Victoria, and follow them around through the Pribilof islands, across to Japan

and to the Hawaiian islands, calling in at San Francisco and then back home.
It has been found necessary to stop the Indians from sealing on their ancient grounds out there; this is done in the interests of conservation. We find that the Indians are no longer able to go out and catch seals by using their canoes, or boats powered only by hand, or through the use of spears, as was their custom in the old days when the seals were more numerous than they are today.
The thought has occurred to me that these funds which are taken into our consolidated revenue fund might very well be earmarked for the use of Indians, so that in some fashion or another they might be compensated for their loss in revenue which it was their custom to receive.
So far as the amount of good food eaten by seals is concerned, I believe the department has spent a great deal of time in a survey of this subject. I remember in 1936 collecting a lot of seal stomachs for the Department of Fisheries, and it is my understanding that those stomachs were analysed. It was found that only about three per cent of the stomachs showed any trace of salmon, which, after all, is the only commercial fish that would be eaten.


George Randolph Pearkes: Mainly herring.


John Lambert Gibson: The sea is full of herring. The amount of herring seals would be able to eat would have no effect on the commercial quantities which would be available. If I were convinced that any great depletion of salmon was caused by the ravages of seals I would agree that the hon. member's point might be well taken. In this particular instance, however, I have never seen a herd of seals chasing salmon in any appreciable degree. The seals which are a menace to our salmon fisheries are what are known as harbour seals or hair seals. The government pays a bounty on them, and has been doing a very good job in suppressing the damage done by this particular variety. However, I think it is difficult for the minister to say anything about the matter. I feel that*if there is any way in which we can compensate the Indian population for the loss they have sustained from the way we are now handling the sealing industry, it would be well to get together with the Department of Mines and Resources and see if something could be worked out along that line.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding in the chair.

Provisional Fur Seal Agreement
On section 1-Short title.
George Randolph Pearkes: Will the minister refer this bill to the committee on fisheries, as I suggested, so that an opportunity may be given for thorough study?
Mr. MacKlNNON: I think a mountain has been made of this matter. I do not see any occasion for following the suggestion.


Gordon Graydon: A whale, the minister means.
Mr. MacKlNNON: Yes, possibly a whale. I do not see any occasion really for referring this bill to the committee. The simple, ordinarily expressed situation is that these seals are reared on United States territory and at one time were subject to killing by Japan, Russia, Canada and the United States. For some reason which we do not know, Russia dropped out of the arrangement that had been made. Japan dropped out during the war. That left the United States and Canada to agree on some method of protecting these seals. Canada shares not in processing, curing or any other way except in the profit realized from a percentage of the skins. After they are transported to the United States and cured, 20 per cent of the skins are given to Canada and, on our direction, are sent to the Canadian Fur Auction Sales Company in Montreal which, as all hon. members who have any knowledge of the fur industry know, is a great organization set up by people interested in fur trading, for the handling of the sale of furs. The Montreal fur auction sales company handles these seal skins on a commission of 3J per cent. That includes storage, grading and selling. The government gets Canada's share of the proceeds of the furs.
Only two plants in the world have the secret of curing these furs. One is in St. Louis in the United States of America, and the other is in London, England. Before the war. Canada found it advisable to send many of these furs to London for curing. Canada got better prices. During the war, the London firm was bombarded and destroyed in whole or in part on two different occasions. Since the war. Canada realizes a better price from the St. Louis processing. As I have said, the process is a secret one known only to those two companies. The question was asked, why should we not do this processing of our own furs in our own country? I have answered that question by stating that the process is a secret method not known to Canada.
It has also been suggested that a plant be established in Canada. From time to time the Canadian government has made efforts to persuade both the London company and the St.
Louis company to establish in Canada a plant for the curing and processing of these furs. Some consideration was given to the suggestion by the St. Louis company, but it reconsidered after going into the matter. It found, I believe, that it would be unprofitable to establish a branch in Canada for the handling of 20 per cent of the skins.
I am advised, too, that a London firm actually started a plant in Canada, but gave it up because it was uneconomical.
The matter of the fish consumed by the seals was answered in part by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Gibson). I could go more particularly into the matter and I intend to do so while we are in committee. I do not want to be adamant about it, but I do not see anything to be gained by referring to the committee on fisheries this bill with respect to the renewing of the agreement we now have with the United States.


George Randolph Pearkes: Can the minister tell us the exact relations with regard to Canada and Russia. I presume this treaty refers only to the Alaska fur seal herd. What is our situation with respect to the Russian fur seal herd which have their breeding grounds on the Commander islands. They also ravage the Pacific ocean and destroy fish. I understand that the Russian government is endeavouring to exterminate that herd because of the damage done to the fish there. Do we get an opportunity to go over and share in the skins derived from that Russian fur seal herd?
Mr. MacKlNNON: Canada has no access whatsoever to the Russian seal herd. It is in Russian territory and is not tributary to Canadian sealing operations. We do not know the reason for Russia's abrogating its treaty arrangement with us, but we know that they ceased to have any interest in participating with us. We are informed and we believe that they are endeavouring to process their own furs for sale abroad.


George Randolph Pearkes: While the breeding grounds are on Russian territory, there is nothing which limits the Russian fur seal herd from travelling all over the waters of the Pacific and gaining contact with our fish.
Mr. MacKlNNON: I am told that we do not know the ocean route of the Russian seals, but that the seals tributary to Canada and to Canadian fish are the seals reared in the Pribilof islands.


George Randolph Pearkes: Then might I ask a question regarding the British equipment sent out here, I believe, during the war, when the minister said they tried to establish a curing
Provisional Fur Seal Agreement

and processing plant in Toronto, I understood, but found it could not be done economically. Why was that? Was it because the skins were not being shipped direct to the firm in Toronto?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am told that the machinery referred to, which was shipped from England, is still in Toronto; that seal skins were supplied to this company but that they abandoned the project for reasons of economy.


George Randolph Pearkes: Because the war was on and the personnel were required for active service. Might this not be an opportune time to reopen negotiations? If the equipment is here, perhaps we could have some of the specialists sent out, and it might be possible to have that industry commence operations in Toronto, so that under the direction of these British specialists employment could be given Canadian furriers.


James Angus MacKinnon: The suggestion is very good, and I think it will be followed by the department.


Mr. HAZEN:: Is there anything to prevent either Russia or Japan from killing these seals that breed on the Pribilof islands, while they are on the high seas?


James Angus MacKinnon: When the seals are on the way from the Pribilof islands to the California coast they are under the protection of the United States navy.


Douglas King Hazen: Are they on the high seas then?


James Angus MacKinnon: They are on the high seas.


George Randolph Pearkes: Has it not been established that a portion of that fur seal herd crosses the Pacific when they have left their breeding grounds and live off the coast of Siberia, actually mingling with the Russian herds?


James Angus MacKinnon: I believe it is suspected that this may happen, but there is no definite knowledge about it. Our knowledge deals with the journey of the seals from the Pribilof islands to the California coast and back.


George Randolph Pearkes: There is nothing to prevent Russian fishermen from killing the Alaska fur seal if it is found off the coast of Siberia?


James Angus MacKinnon: I imagine not, but they are not doing so.


George Randolph Pearkes: How would we know?


Arthur Leroy Smith: What is this great difference in processing? That is a tremendous word which seems to mean a great secret. In this country we have many fur

bearing animals that enter the water, such as beaver, otter and muskrat. There is no difficulty in processing them, and they look rather good in Hollywood fur coats. What is this mysterious secret with respect to seals? You pick up a skin and it feels the same as any of the others; perhaps the best way to put it is that it is a skin you love to touch. What is this secret we are so greatly worried about?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is what we have been trying to find out in Canada, as well as in other parts of the world, for a long time. As I said, there are only two firms that have this necessary secret, the know-how, to process these fur seals.


Arthur Leroy Smith: All right, but why cannot the fur seal skin be tanned? That is a word the meaning of which we all know. Has anyone ever tried it? To me it seems like a lot of nonsense, as though someone were running a big racket on us and we are dumb enough to accept it.


James Angus MacKinnon: I am informed that Canadian firms have tried it, but unsuccessfully.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Who?


James Angus MacKinnon: If, instead of being Minister of Fisheries, I were in the seal skin processing business, probably I could give a very good and proper and convincing answer to my hon. friend.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Well, you have a couple of gentlemen in front of you. I do not know what they are there for except to give answers to questions of this kind. It does seem rather dumb on our part that two groups of people, one in St. Louis and one in London, should say they have a secret process for the handling of seal skins, when we have dozens of processes for the handling of skins of other animals which frequent the water. It seems to me very strange that we cannot unmask this masquerade, shall I call it, or whatever is going on with respect to fur bearing seals.


John Lambert Gibson: We have been taking these seals for about seventy-five years, I may tell the hon. member for Calgary West. Hon. members know how enterprising our United States friends are, but it was only about fifteen years ago they finally discovered an alternative process to that used by the English processors. Up to that time the Americans sent all their furs to England, and it is only within the last fifteen years that St. Louis has been able to carry on the same process.

Provisional Fur Seal Agreement


Arthur Leroy Smith: I fully appreciate what the hon. member has said, but all Americans are not tremendously brilliant. Perhaps they were dumb and woke up fifteen years ago. We are being dumber than they were for another fifteen years. That is the obvious answer to what the hon. member has just said.


John Lambert Gibson: On the other hand, it may be that not enough seal skins come into Canada to make it worthwhile for anyone to waste a lot of time and invest a great deal of money in a particular process.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You have said the same thing that occurred to me a long time ago.
Mr. PEARIvES: Has this question been referred to the national research council to see if they can assist the industry in finding a way to cure these seal skins, just as beaver skins are cured, for example?


James Angus MacKinnon: It has been referred to the national research council by the government. I do not know whether private industry has done so, but I do not believe it has.


George Randolph Pearkes: Then might I suggest that it be referred to them?


Arthur Leroy Smith: An ordinary
chemist can tell by smell;


Douglas King Hazen: Can the minister tell me how the United States can protect these seals from Japan or Russia while they are on the high seas, if those countries have not entered into the agreement? I know that a year or two ago the United States claimed certain powers over the seas as far as the continental shelf extended; but these seals must be beyond the continental shelf. I just wondered what power the United States navy would have there.


James Angus MacKinnon: I understand that there was a tacit agreement between Russia, Canada and the United States that Russia would direct its operations to the seals along the Russian coast and Canada and the United States would direct their attention to the Pribilof island seals. That tacit agreement is still being respected and acted upon, though there have been no conversations with Russia on the matter.


Howard Charles Green: How was the catch divided when Russia and Japan were parties to the agreement?


James Angus MacKinnon: Canada was getting 15 per cent; the United States, 70 per cent, and Russia, 15 per cent.


Howard Charles Green: Was Japan not a party to the agreement?


James Angus MacKinnon: Japan was not a party to the agreement at that time.


Howard Charles Green: Japan has never been a party to the agreement?


James Angus MacKinnon: It has never been a party to the Pribilof agreement.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
On section 7-Importation or possession prohibited.
George Randolph Pearkes: I assume, from the Latin names which are used, that the three species referred to in paragraph (b) are the Russian, Japanese and Alaskan fur seals.


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 8 to 20 inclusive agreed to.
On section 21-Duration of act.
George Randolph Pearkes: Will there be any time limit? I think I am correct in saying that an investigation is now being carried on by the United States as to the actual damage being done by these animals to the fisheries of the Pacific coast. If the report from the fish and game department indicates that there has been a great deal of damage, will it be possible to review this act and have it changed, or is its duration indefinite?
. Mr. MacKINNON:	That question is
answered by article X of the agreement.


Douglas King Hazen: Has legislation confirming this agreement been passed by the congress of the United States and approved by the President?


James Angus MacKinnon: It was passed and approved last year.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Schedules A and B agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
[Stage Direction]
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of Bill No. 211, to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, I feel that I need
to add but little to what I said when I introduced the resolution. The bill has been printed and circulated, and hon. gentlemen who wish to question any part of the bill will have ample opportunity for so doing in committee of the whole. The main part of the bill is that which brings the pension provisions for members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in line with the pension provisions for members of the armed forces.
There are other sections of the bill of a miscellaneous nature. There are certain provisions for pension for disability as distinguished from service pensions. It is the kind of bill which cannot be discussed very well by the minister introducing it on second reading, because it has so many diverse provisions which, I assume, can be dealt with in committee.
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the bill was just distributed this afternoon and therefore it is somewhat difficult to analyse the general principles as one would have hoped to be able to do had it been distributed earlier. As far as the general principle of the bill to extend provisions for retirement and compensation to members of the forces is concerned, there is entire agreement in so far as the official opposition goes. On this occasion there are a few ideas that I wish to place before the minister with a view to removing some of the anomalous conditions that prevail and clarifying some matters regarding which there is a critical feeling on the part of members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
One of the main criticisms in the past was that the pay received by these officers was not commensurate with the responsibilities they had undertaken. That was so particularly during the days of war, even though provision was made by means of a temporary arrangement to increase the pay. The recent increases that were announced do not go as far as some of us would have lilted to see them go, but they have been favourably received and have gone a long way toward removing one of the major causes of dissatisfaction on the part of members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Their duties, as your honour knows, were most onerous during the period of the war. Their duties today, having regard to the work they do in connection with the investigation of subversive elements such as communists in our midst, is of grave importance and demands the most serious attention on the part of parliament. These officers-and by officers I mean the general personnel of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police-however much their pay may be increased, still find themselves in the position of being very lowly paid, having regard to the fact that in the main they are on duty 168 hours in each and every week.
In running over this bill, I am particularly impressed with one thing, and that is the care with which these amendments have been prepared and the apparent desire of the minister and those associated with him to remove a number of causes of serious complaint.
I realize that I should not go into any particular sections at this time, and I do not intend to do so except to say that one of the major causes of objection until this bill was introduced was that time served in active service during the last war was not in the term of service of an officer counted for pension purposes under the act. But that has now been covered, removing a serious cause of objection.
I would ask the minister, however, to explain this. What about the position of the men who served in the mounted police during the period of the war and who, at the conclusion of their term of office, decided in their own interests- and by their own interests I mean in the discharge of their patriotic feelings-to enlist in the armed forces and go overseas instead of continuing in the service of the force? Provision should be made so that their period of service should also count, irrespective of the fact that in September, 1939, the statement was made by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ilsley) that no permission would be granted them to enlist in the armed services.
Another matter of importance is that, while part 3 today provides for retirement allowances for members of the force, those who are serving at the time this bill goes into effect are not being compulsorily required to give up their choice in favour of the provisions of this act whereby a compulsory amount must be paid by them if they would come under its provisions.
I should like to mention a few other anomalies which should be removed and regarding which there is considerable criticism. First and foremost, there is the matter that has been brought up on previous occasions, the marriage regulations. We have been losing our trained men in the mounted police, and no man can discharge his responsibilities as a member of

>
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
this force unless he has training and experience. Only last year I ascertained this fact, that between January, 1946, and May, 1947, 246 members of the .mounted police voluntarily left the force, which number included 109 retirements at the expiration of their respective periods of service, 45 of whom had a matter of only between five and ten years' service. One of the causes of ill-feeling is the fact that marriage is denied to members of the force until the expiry of five years' service. In addition to that, a new rule is made that they must have assets of $1,200 instead of the $500, as the rule used to be. I know the explanation that is given. It is that we must have young men in the force. But surely these young men who serve in the force should not be required to remain in the force until they are approximately thirty years of age before being permitted to marry.
Another matter is the personnel report. As a member of the force moves from place to place a secret personal file is kept of him. He never has an opportunity of seeing that file, but that file operates against him as the years go by, and many of the men in the force find themselves in the position of not understanding why promotion is being denied them. I suggest this-and it has come to me from members of the force-that they should have the right to peruse their file with a view to answering any charges which have been made against them but which have not gone to the point where an actual charge has been preferred under the provisions of the police act.
Just in that connection, I see by the amendments that further provision is made for the trial of police officers. I consider it most unfair, as do the members of the force, that when they come up for trial they are denied the privilege of being represented by counsel. I have not the regulation here-I could find it without any difficulty-but it is a rule which prevents them from being represented by professional counsel on charges that will determine their future.
Another cause of complaint is from many of the younger members of the force who wish to go on to police colleges. Their usual complaint is that, however much they may wish to improve themselves they find that seniority, seniority bordering on retirement, is the qualification for attendance at courses from which improved technological procedures might be learned by the members of the force.
So far as the detective force is concerned, one of their major complaints is that, while they are required to go about in plain clothes, the total amount allowed them as a plain clothes allowance was, at the last information
I have received, twenty-five cents a day, an amount totally inadequate to permit them properly to clothe themselves.
These are just a few of the complaints that, I suggest, should be removed in order to restore a higher degree of morale than prevails today in the force.
There is one other matter and it is of major importance. Today the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in all parts of Canada are engaged in a recruitment campaign to secure 300 to 400 new men for the force. No doubt the reason for that campaign is the fact that the duties and responsibilities of members of the force have been materially increased by reason of communistic endeavours in all parts of Canada. We are in a position where we cannot ourselves ascertain what the members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police consider is necessary to increase their ability to cope with the subversion that they find in so many places. I realize that the mounted police officers are denied the privilege of discussing these matters publicly, although it has come to this stage that in the last few weeks two of the officers have dealt with communism and its danger to our country. One of them, Superintendent McClellan of the intelligence branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police spoke in Ottawa; another one, Inspector Savoie, spoke in Winnipeg before a service club. They placed before service clubs something of what the danger is.
There is only one way in which the people of this country can fully understand the situation, and that is, by being given, within the limits of security, nevertheless in general terms, the information that is possessed by the Department of Justice in order that our people may be aroused and not soothed as so many are today.
I do not know what the mounted police officers believe is necessary to cope with this situation; none of us do, except the minister and those charged with the administration of the Department of Justice. In the United States there have been continuing investigations regarding this situation and as to the proper course that should be adopted. One of the star witnesses before the United States committee was no other than J. Edgar Hoover, head of the investigation branch of the United States. When he appeared before the committee of congress this outstanding police officer advised the people of the United States by placing his point of view before the members of congress on what should be done. We meet in parliament from week to week and all the information we have regarding this problem is what we read in the newspapers.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
The committee of the United States congress dealt with the matter and made certain recommendations which are set forth in an article in the Christian Science Monitor of April 25, 1948. The conclusion which they came to was that communism should be kept above ground as much as possible, but that the party and every fringe organization should be subject to the principle of self-identification; that is, require them to register and to reveal periodically their offices, their connections and the sources of their support. I point out that one of the men who took that stand was the man who has built up in the United States an effective police organization embodying many of the great principles of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police without at the same time having the lengthy tradition of that organization.
I should like to ask the minister this question: will he frankly tell parliament what the Royal Canadian Mounted Police require to do in order to cope with the cult of confusion that is being disseminated by communists in our country? I speak with police officers. They say that the law, as it stands today, is insufficient to meet the situation. After all, what we are trying to do here is to place in the hands of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, under democratic principles and under parliament, the tools with which they can cope with the situation they find. Because the Canadian people are asking for this, I ask the minister if he will place before the house and the country what the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are asking in the way of amendments to the law, and will he make this country aware of the situation, generally speaking, in regard to the spread of communism in our midst?
The hon. member for Portneuf (Mr. Gauthier) made a striking speech the other night, but I cannot refer to another debate in this connection. I do say that, however striking are the speeches which are made in this house, none of us is in the position of the Minister of Justice who represents the law officers of this country, since he is the head of this great institution which has behind it a record and tradition of service equalled by no other police organization in the world. No one is in a better position to place before the house and the country exactly what the position is. No one else is in the position of placing frankly and fairly, and again I say within the limitations of national security, the situation as it is.
I am going to bring one matter to the attention of the minister. It was brought to my attention again today and to the attention

of other hon. members, as indeed to his. I know what the situation is in some parts of our country. We have people who came here from various parts of Europe, and they have relatives over there living today under the shadow or behind the iron curtain. I know there are hon. members in different parts of the house who can bear me out in this. These people are being asked for contributions, if not directly, certainly indirectly, to assist in the spread of communism in Europe. They are loyal Canadians; they have no loyalty other than loyalty to our institutions, and I want to say in that connection that the record of voluntary enlistment in the armed forces in the last war was not exceeded either by Anglo-Saxon Canadians or Canadians of French origin when compared with those whose people came from continental Europe. These people ask, why is it that we are placed in a position of being intimidated?
I place one example before the committee. The minister himself has received a letter along the same line. A group of men representing the council of Canadian south Slavs are today using threats against members of their own race domiciled in Canada that if the individual threatened does not conform to the wishes of the group his relatives still in Yugoslavia will suffer. That is happening to people of other racial origins in Canada. These people in Canada whose loved ones are over there are being intimidated by a form not of subtle threats but of actual direct intimidation.
As I understand the law, there is nothing that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police can do today to proceed against those who, by subversive activity such as that, actually undermine the state. Tire only provision that I know anything about, outside of the provisions covering sedition, which can be used in these particular circumstances is section 748 (2), which deals with the question of threats, but does not deal with questions such as I have pointed out.
What is the situation? Mounted policeman after mounted policeman have told me this, that they go out into these districts and find these activities going on. They find these threats being made against loyal Canadians; and these people cannot understand why, under our law, activities such as that may flourish and expand, and why there should be no law to proceed against the wrongdoers.
I suggest this-and it is just one example;
I could mention several others-that the mounted police charged with this great responsibility did not fail us during the war. They did not fail us in 1939 at the outbreak of war.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
They had complete lists of those who would have undermined the state; and they are not failing us today, operating as they have in the past as a silent force.
But I do feet this, that they have the right to ask those of us in parliament to face up to this issue, and to give to them within democratic confines something by way of teeth in the law which will support them, and which will serve to prevent the uncontrolled dissemination of communism in our country.
I am not going into any further detail at this time. Let me say to the minister that this bill goes a long way toward removing many of the anomalies which have existed for years. It will be appreciated by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police throughout our country. They have been prepared to make sacrifices in the interests of Canada. We in parliament should, as I see it, do our part to place on the statute books laws which are more up to date, laws applicable to 1948, laws that will have some regard to the expansion of the subversive undercurrent of communism in our country, laws which will meet present-day needs, so that our police officers will be able to assure us of protection against subversion, which protection too often was absent in those countries which have recently been overrun.


John Oliver Probe: Mr. Speaker, because a major part of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police has its headquarters in my city of Regina, and because of the tradition built around the work of the mounted police over the past several years, I consider it proper that the member from Regina should say a few words respecting the general principles underlying the bill now before us for second reading.
I have not had an opportunity to study the bill in detail. However it looks to me as though it is designed to remedy those conditions which were brought before the House of Commons when in previous years we have been in committee of supply on mounted police estimates.
I said at the beginning that those of us who call ourselves prairie pioneers look upon the mounted police as our own force. While undoubtedly some seventy years ago it was initiated in Ottawa, the fact remains that the major part of its early work was performed on the prairies from the time of the Riel rebellion, and has had a great deal to do with the attitude toward law and order that those of us who spring from non-British stock have come to regard as the law of Canada. I say that because we see it through the eyes of the mounted police, to whom we have looked for friendship and counsel.
I believe the glamour feature of the mounted police has often been over-emphasized. We could properly leave that to the autograph seekers who come to these buildings during the summer months to take pictures of the men who are on duty outside the building and who are more or less on show.
Sometimes it is said that it is difficult to get recruits for the mounted police, or that the type of recruit today is not of the same high standard attracted some thirty or forty years ago. I believe that in some measure the glamour aspect is responsible; because, while the young men of today are as good and loyal citizens as were their fathers and grandfathers in years gone by, they are a little more hardheaded with respect to the dollars-and-cents aspect of the matter, and regarding the amenities which go with the duties they have to perform.
I would draw to the attention of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ilsley) the fact that the conditions under which the force operates, particularly the conditions of discipline, are in many respects outmoded. No one would say that a police force as much respected as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should not have a high and rigid standard of discipline. But when the disciplinary features become petty, or when a constable or noncommissioned officer may be made or broken by a martinet above him, then I think it is time we brought ourselves up to date. The commissioner and, through him, his assistant deputies are practically the sole arbiters as to the worth or otherwise of a constable who may have served for years on important missions. They are the sole arbiters in respect of dismissal.
Reference was made earlier by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) to the fact that members of the force are not in a position to comment on adverse reports in their files. That is not just, and does not improve the prestige of the force, nor does it improve the attitude of the men toward the work they may have to perform.
There was a time from October, 1918-and perhaps the minister will correct me if I am wrong-when order in council P.C. 2213 was passed, when members of the mounted police force were prevented the right of association, whether through trade unions or through organization of a fraternal nature among their own membership. They were denied those channels through which they might present their grievances on a semi-equal basis to higher officers, or to make comments with respect to the good and welfare of the service.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
That form of rigorous treatment of men as competent as those in the mounted police is as outmoded as are the horses and buggies we used to use on the prairies forty or fifty years ago. It seems to me that the right of association of constables of the force should be encouraged rather than frowned upon by the Minister of Justice.
Tradition in an excellent thing; but when it is hedged in by an obsolete form of discipline, then I think it is time to do away with it. I want the minister, if he will, to comment during the course of his remarks on the fact as to whether or not the superannuation referred to in the amendments to the act will supersede the original superannuation plan whereby constables of the force received superannuation rights without contribution on their own part. We now have a contributory system of superannuation being introduced here for non-commissioned officers and constables. Formerly only commissioned officers were obliged to contribute.
Second I should like to know whether or not the pension plan that had been instituted for non-commissioned officers and constables, which was non-contributory on the part of noncommissioned officers and constables, is now being incorporated into this plan, or whether it will be possible for those who were not contributing to their pension to continue to be free of contribution from here on for the remainder of their period of service; and whether or not those who had contributed to the superannuation plans involving their wives would now have some consideration by having the old plan incorporated in the new.


Arthur Leroy Smith: It is clear in the act.


John Oliver Probe: I may not have read it carefully enough. The hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) said it is clear in the act. If it is, then of course the fault is with my poor reading. I had the bill only this afternoon, and to me it was not clear. The minister may be able to clear that up.
I think that is all I wish to say at this time, Mr. Speaker. But I should like some clarification as to where the old pension plans stand now with relation to the contributory ones that are now being discussed here.
Mr. A. L. SMITH '(Calgary West): Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a remark or two about the police, and then to suggest to the minister three points or three legislative fields which I think are worthy of study, following the remarks made by my colleague, the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker).

To those of us who have watched this force and have been close to it, theirs is an amazing achievement. I refer particularly to Regina whence comes the hon. member for Regina City (Mr. Probe). I do not know that we really appreciate what has gone on in their laboratories by way of scientific study. We always hear about the great achievements of the federal bureau of investigation. They are great; they are not only great but tremendously expensive. The federal bureau of investigation are now recruited from persons who must have professional education, even graduation in accountancy or law. There may be some other profession involved, but I know those two are.
Not so long ago I had occasion to have experience with some of the excellent work which is being done by the mounted police on a number of subjects. One was human hair. It would just amaze you, Mr. Speaker, how those men in that place, having found a bit of hair, and then getting a piece of yours, would show that you were the person who was at the scene of the crime at the particular moment when it was committed. The things they have done with steel and the things they have done with paint are remarkable. I was on the losing end of a case not so long ago where my unfortunate client, in committing his crime, had1 scraped against the wall and a bit of paint came off and fell into his overcoat pocket. The paint was of a common variety, the kind used in painting barns and so on. But the mounted police were able, by an . amazing instrument, to photograph in colour the bit of a crumb of paint in this man's pocket. Then, by comparing it with the paint on the wall, they were able not only to trace it and establish that it belonged to that kind of paint, but to trace it back to where the paint was made and the shipment from which it came; and in that way to trace it to the store from which it was sold and thus identify my innocent client with this crime which had been committed.
Those things have been done, and I mention only two or three. The work that has been done with regard to blood is simply phenomenal. The mounted police, I might say, have matched and in some eases exceeded the achievements of this institution in Washington. It strikes me as strange that the man who is in. charge of all that, and who is a wizard if ever I saw one, is only a sergeant major in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I will not mention his name because he may be getting a medal; and if I mentioned his name he probably would not get it, so I will not do so.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
Then going back through history, I know of so many fine, extracurricular things, if I may use that expression, that have been done. But they all point up this fact, Mr. Speaker, and I think the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ilsleyl has no doubt given it consideration. Our greatest lack in crime detection and punishment in the Dominion of Canada is a central police organization as, for example, England has.
I am happy to think that in the province from which I come we have no provincial police. The mounted police perform those duties. In many towns in Alberta that is the situation and they are growing in number. The mounted police, under contract with these towns, are also doing the municipal policing which is required in these various places. The thing that I call to your attention there is this. Consider what a mounted policeman in Alberta must necessarily know. He must know the dominion laws, outside of the code laws with respect to narcotics and all that sort of thing. The mounted police have been involved -and I am sorry they were1-in the wartime prices and trade board prosecutions. They must know the many dominion statutes. In those towns which have contracted with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police they must know the municipal laws of the community in which they are carrying on. I can think of three places now in which I know the municipal authorities are happy about the change they made. They have no municipal police. The whole thing is carried on by the mounted police.
I said that I intended to make some suggestions to the minister as to a field in which legislation might take place. One is with respect to the field of communism. The first thing I point out is this. There are in the Dominion of Canada thirteen foreign language newspapers which are admittedly communist newspapers. They have a large circulation indeed. There is no hiding the fact-it is admitted-that all their propaganda is obviously of that kind. I do not want to go into detail with regard to matters of perhaps jurisdictional differences, but I mention it merely as a field of study. I have no doubt the minister has already given consideration to that point.
I turn now to something else, perhaps the most important field in which this parliament may operate. That is the pinpointing, if I may use that expression, of communist propagandists, both oral and through the newspapers. That must rest on one thing. I would rest it on the principle that all persons doing that sort of thing for a country other than Canada must register as a foreign agent. Then,
when our people know the person to whom they are listening is a foreign agent they can accept what that person says and evaluate it properly. I spoke on this matter in this house some time ago. Some people thought I went too far; and at times when I am told that by enough people I even doubt miy own judgment. But it does seem to me that we must come to this point in whatever we do, that the person among us who confesses higher loyalty than that to the Dominion of Canada, should, in short order, be regarded and treated and punished as a criminal in this country.
In saying that, I am saying nothing against our freedoms the freedom of a citizen; because what is the pri-ilege and what are the responsibilities of a citizen of Canada? His privilege is the protection the laws of Canada give him. His responsibility is loyalty to the king of Canada and to Canadian institutions. If that person is not prepared to accept the responsibility while he enjoys the privilege, then the equation is broken; the equality is gone. He stands for what he is, the agent of a foreign country. I do not want to go into detail, but I suggest that basis for a study of what may be done legislatively by this parliament in combating that menace.
Another matter which I think requires thorough investigation is this. Are the embassies and consulates of certain countries being used for the spread of propaganda here which, in the final analysis, is aimed at the destruction of this country? I make no charge, but I say this. We have an expression "diplomatic immunity." We even had a couple of dogs barking at our diplomatic immunity the other day. But this big expression, "diplomatic immunity," must certainly be a two-way street. In other words, diplomatic immunity should never permit an embassy or a consulate in this country to be the means of spreading propaganda for the destruction of our way of life, unless in the country from which those people come we have permission to act in a similar way. There is no sense, it seems to me, and no justice in our just hiding behind a formula when we know very well that the immunities we would get over there are not the same as we are granting here. In other words, I think in the legislative field we might find something in the nature of reciprocity on that subject.
Once more I want to say how much I am in favour of the principle of this bill. After we pass it, no mounted policeman will die with a sockful of money, or anything like that. The pay is modest. The reason is just. The time is opportune, and I shall help the minister in every way possible to get this bill, as he has drawn it, through the House of Commons.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act


Mr. A. M. NICHOLSON (Mackenzie):: The points I planned on discussing have already been mentioned, Mr. Speaker, but before you leave the chair I want to urge that greater consideration be given the question of the compensation of members of the mounted police. I have always thought that, if we take into account the responsibilities of the members of the force and the number of hours they are on duty in the course of a week, the compensation is quite inadequate; and the increases that have been given on account of the increase in the cost of living have not been sufficient. I also want to urge that consideration be given those who joined the armed services that they should not be penalized through the loss of seniority.
Then I want to raise the point that has often been mentioned in the house, the medieval ideas still prevalent in connection with the marriage regulations. For some twenty years I have lived in a northern frontier area where we have seen a succession of young men join the service and come north. There they have become acquainted with schoolteachers, nurses and other charming young women in that north country, and decided they would not wait for five years to get married. As a result, they have given up the mounted police and have been lost to the service. It could be understood, perhaps, that regulations of this sort might be necessary before the railways were built across Canada, when men went to their posts on horseback; but now, with modern travel, I can see no reason why a man who is able to measure up to the requirements of the force should not be allowed to get married.
The standards that have been set are high. No officer or constable shall be appointed to the force unless he is of sound constitution, active and able-bodied, of good character and between the ages of eighteen and forty, and unless he is able to read and write either the English or the French language. Men who can meet these requirements should not be asked to wait for five years before marrying, if they meet the young lady of their choice. I would remind the minister that, during the war years, he did not ask young men who joined the army, the navy or the air force to wait for five years before taking on family responsibilities. The minister was able to find the wherewithal to provide allowances for the dependents of those who risked their lives for our country in wartime; and I urge that now in peacetime, in his own department, he remove these barriers which prevent his personnel from living a normal life.

In northern Manitoba there is today no problem in providing air transportation. 1 know of a corporation which maintains a large establishment in the Churchill river district. They encourage women to come into that community, and men to live normal lives, because they believe they get much more in the course of the year from men who come in and bring their wives and children with them. In the event of illness, people are flown out to the nearest hospital, and provision is also made to fly them out for their holidays. I believe the people who live in these northern areas deserve the best from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and I think we should encourage the young men who go in there to marry and bring in their wives.
The final thing I want to do is to put in a word on behalf of my legal friends. I find in the act a long list of offences and penalties. The paragraphs run all the way from a, b, c and down to x. Section 31 of the act provides:
The commissioner, the deputy commissioner and assistant commissioner, or the superintendent or other commissioned officer at any post or in any district, may, forthwith, on a charge in writing of any one or more of the offences mentioned in this act or any regulation made under the authority hereof being preferred against any member of the force, other than a commissioned officer, cause the person so charged to be brought before him, and he shall then and there, in a summary way, investigate the said charge, and, if proved on oath, to his satisfaction, shall thereof convict the offender. Every commissioned officer for the purpose of this section is empowered to administer the necessary oaths in dealing with a charge in a summary way.
I know that some provision has been made in the bill for lesser punishments, but this section still places members of the staff in a position where they can be dealt with in what I consider to be an undemocratic way. I can quite understand where regulations of this sort might have been necessary before the railroads were established and when men went out to the northwest and were beyond civilization for six months or even six years at a time. No doubt it was necessary to give special responsibilities to those in charge of the force, but I can see no reason why the personnel should not have legal assistance.
I know if I were in trouble I should like to have my good friends, the hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Jaenicke), or if I were in serious trouble I should like to have the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) plead my case. I would feel that, no matter how dark the future might seem to be, he would make a good argument for a very bad case. I think members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are entitled to legal assistance.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
The hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) lives in a province in which they have high union fees. I notice that a publisher got a lawyer from Ontario and had to pay union fees in Alberta which ran over SI,500. That publisher probably considered it important that he have legal counsel available to argue his case. No matter how clever a lawyer one might be, I think if a charge were made against you, you would want someone else to argue your case. While the members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are familiar with law and no doubt could defend themselves in most cases, I think they are entitled to counsel to argue their cases.
Many members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have to take on assignments at risk of life. Section 30 provides:
(n) wilfully, or through negligence or connivance, allowing any prisoner to escape.
A man might act on the spur of the moment. I understand that there have been cases where the record was quite clear but where someone who had a good deal of money and held a spite against the police officer took legal action against him. I think it is unfair that a member of the force should have to argue his own case. There should be legal counsel provided for him at public expense as long as he is a member of the force. If he is proved guilty of the offence and is to be dismissed, well and good, but so long as his record is clear I think it should be taken as a matter of course that, if action is taken against him, legal counsel will be provided to see that his case is presented in the proper light.
I wanted to bring these matters to the attention of the minister because the new bill does not make provision for these matters.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, I wish to say just a word on the bill before us. We consider that this Bill No. 211 is a step forward in bringing to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that decent treatment which many of us felt should have come some time ago. I want to congratulate the minister upon having gone into the whole matter. I think it was a year ago that he gave the promise that something would be done at the earliest possible moment.
We are in agreement with the principles of the bill. While it does not go all the way toward the objective that we hoped would be attained, it is certainly a substantial betterment and we are happy about it.
It has been my good fortune to live on the frontier and be associated with the work of this splendid force ever since I was a small
boy. I have seen the changes that have taken place in the force, and my experience from seeing them work in my boyhood home, and more recently in the Peace River country, has led me to believe that the old pioneering spirit of the force has not lost one particle of its vitality. I find the members of the force to be efficient and courteous without becoming obnoxious or obtrusive in any sense. I believe the Royal Canadian Mounted Police can be compared favourably with the finest police force in the world, and that without in any sense being accused of exceeding their duties or of taking privileges such as are taken in many lands. We are grateful to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and for what they have accomplished in this country.
There is one word I should like to say to the minister. I believe it was during the throne debate a year ago last spring I said that in my judgment the special investigation branch of the force was being neglected. I have not kept up to date with the improvements that have been made, but when the minister is closing the debate I hope that he will have something to say about the special investigation branch.
At that time I was of the opinion, from information which I had received from very good sources, that the special investigation branch was being sorely neglected. I did not think at that time-and I think I so stated on the floor of the house-that the best men available were being recruited into that branch. Subsequent events proved that we needed them, because it was not long after that Mr. Gouzenko made his sensational revelations which touched off the communist hunt throughout this country and, in, fact, throughout America.
Reports had been sent in by special investigators prior to that time from various parts of Canada; in fact I would say that some were dated two or three years before the spy probe. These reports from special investigation officers were sent in from areas where it was known that communistic activity was strong, but no attention whatever seemed to be paid to them. The details given were correct and those details were furnished to headquarters, but the reports were pigeonholed. In some instances that I know, these officers were told to tread lightly and not go too far.
When you have an efficient special investigation branch and where it is known there is a strong possibility of communist infiltration, every report sent in by these special investigation officers ought to be carefully scanned and

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
sent on to the commissioner or assistant commissioner, and a note taken, with action wherever it is recommended.
It seems to me that, in selecting men for the special investigation branch, full cognizance should be taken of the experience of the men and of the effective work they have done over the years; and further, that in a specialized branch which requires a particular type of investigational sense the men should receive pay comparable with the qualifications which are necessary to the attainment of a high degree of efficiency in that branch. I do not believe, from my experience with that branch, that these men have been given quite a fair deal in years past.
I recall particularly, when we made the change-over in the province of Alberta from the old Alberta provincial police, there were some misgivings about making a contract with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. We were uncertain as to the abilities of the force to police the province generally. We did not know how efficient their special investigation branch would be. But after ten years of quite close association with the acting assistant commissioner in Edmonton, and with the force, generally, I want to pay tribute to these men for what they did accomplish, both those in the general force and in the special investigation branch. Those officers were splendid men. I think it is time that the minister and his department strengthened the whole force, as well as the special investigation branch by getting in the very best men they can get, men who are trained in all the modern techniques of investigation and report, and that adequate pensions be provided and payment be made to them commensurate with the services they are rendering. We are very happy, Mr. Speaker, to support the principle of this bill.


George Randolph Pearkes: Mr. Speaker, as a former member of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police I should not like this bill to go to the committee without expressing my appreciation to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ilsley) for having introduced the bill, which will improve the service conditions and pensions of the force that now perpetuates the tradition of the force to which I belonged. I should like to say from my personal observation, that I am convinced that the younger men who are in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are in every way upholding the highest traditions of their former comrades.
I have not had an opportunity to study the bill in detail, nor should the details be discussed at this stage, but there are three

points which have already been mentioned in part that I should like to emphasize and perhaps illustrate.
The first is the effort to intimidate certain groups of Canadians who have come to this country from Europe. Only today it was brought to my attention that a disturbance had occurred at a meeting held in Nanaimo and presided over by the mayor of that town, when a gentleman who had recently come from Europe was endeavouring to explain to some of his fellow countrymen and the citizens of the town at large the conditions as they exist in Europe at the present time. The greatest difficulty was experienced in trying to maintain order during that meeting, because a group of some thirty or forty hooligans, mostly of foreign extraction, were endeavouring to prevent this gentleman from telling of conditions as they actually exist. They were accused of being communists, and actually four of them stood up and admitted that they were communists. But they were holding out threats to their fellow countrymen that their relatives in Europe would be persecuted if they listened to the words of advice which were being given by this Canadian gentleman of foreign extraction who was speaking to the meeting at that time. I understand that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the law officers of the crown to take any action against people who threaten to do bodily harm to relatives of other people when those relatives are not resident in this country. Whether it is possible for the criminal code to be amended in order to take care of that situation I do not know, but I feel that the task of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police would be made easier if something could be done along those lines.
The second point. I wanted to bring to the minister's attention was touched upon by the hon. member for Regina City (Mr. Probe), who expressed the hope that there might be some means of harmonizing the various pension schemes that existed during the long service of the various forces, the Northwest Mounted Police, the Royal Northwest Mounted Police and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. There are men living today who joined the Northwest Mounted Police and who served for years at fifty cents a day, that being the rate of pay at that time. I received a letter not very long ago from a warrant officer of that force who joined in 1905 and served until 1935, when he was asked to make way in order to speed up promotion. He had done thirty years of service instead of thirty-five years. By agreeing to the request of his superior officers, he forfeited the full

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
pension that he would have obtained had he stayed on for another five years. I should like to read an extract from his letter. I prefer not to mention his name, although I shall be pleased to give it to the minister if he so desires. He says:
I have to date contributed the sum of $2,609.75, leaving a balance of $249.53 still due on the full amount.
After he discussed his retirement with his senior officer, he was informed that he would have to pay the sum of S219 yearly for the rest of his life. Actually the words which are written on his discharge certificate are, according to my information, these:
A clause should be inserted on the discharge board to the effect that Sergeant (So-iand-so's) pension will be subject to a monthly reduction of $18.25 on account of prior service contribution to the widows pension fund for the rest of his life. Please exercise care in seeing that this clause is inserted on the discharge board for Sergeant (So-and-so).
It seems to me that is a hard case, this old retired police officer who joined up when the pay was only fifty cents a day.
I hope that the details of this bill, or any amendments which may be suggested during the discussion, wrill harmonize these various pension schemes.
The last point I wish to make has to do with the question of whether provision is being made in the bill for those ex-members of the force who served overseas in units other than the No. 1 provost company, which was a unit in which men of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police enlisted directly, to count their services overseas toward their police pension fund if they rejoined the force after taking their discharge from the navy, army or air force, as the case may be. I understand that this was permitted in the case of members of the Royal Northwest Mounted Police who served in world war I and came back and joined the force. Unless it is included in the amendments which I have not had a chance to study in the short time since the bill has been distributed, this provision has not been extended to former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who served overseas during world war 11.


Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, I do not suppose that I can really add a great deal more to what has already been said. I appreciate the remarks of the leader of this group (Mr. Low) who has made our position quite clear. I appreciate also the remarks that wrere made by the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith). We favour this bill because we believe that the magnificent work which the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have done in the past and are doing today deserves great consideration.
The particular thing I had in mind, and which called me to my feet this evening, is that I believe there should be inserted in this bill somewhere some assistance to the unfortunate widows of those Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers who were perhaps, shall I say, unfortunate enough to be non-pensioned. I do not know to what extent that situation exists, but I do know of one case, and perhaps if there is one case there must be others, where a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police died, leaving a widow. She is now growing old and is in need. Her husband had a good record, but because she did not come within the scope of certain acts that are already in existence she was unable to be the recipient of any assistance. I do not know just how far this bill goes along that line and I cannot pick out the section here and discuss it now, but when we come to that section I wish the minister would elaborate on it a bit and tell us how far we are: prepared to go in that direction. These cases cannot be very numerous; there cannot be many of them. It surely should not take a great deal of money to look after the few that there may be.
While I am on my feet I want to pay tribute to the work of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, because I am inclined to believe that, while they may have been lauded to the skies in fiction, when perhaps it may appear that they have made a bit of a mistake here and there someone in the country is too quick to pounce upon them and besmirch them. I say that what we have to remember-and this goes, I suppose, for any police force-is that the police are in reality our protectors. Let us not forget that. I know that among some of them there may be those who appear to have that police complex, shall I say, and if the word is not too expressive, that bludgeoning aspect; but I am inclined to think that perhaps it might be a matter of the nature of the particular individual, because you cannot stereotype human nature, any way.
Generally speaking, I believe that they are doing work to protect the country and to protect the citizens, and not necessarily running out and hunting up a lot of trouble for the sake of doing so. Let us remember that. While my little voice here will not get very far outside this chamber, I am quite certain it might be well for parents in this country to teach their children just that very thing. Children do not need to have the attitude of being just a little frightened of the police-

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
man. That does not need to be. I can say, from experience and from my association with some members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in our province of Alberta, and in my own constituency-and I am not going to mention any names, because like the hon. member for Calgary West, I say that if there are any medals to be passed out I do not want to prevent their getting what is coming to them-I have received many comments from police magistrates to the effect that the officers are very helpful in solving cases, not necessarily or particularly as would-be prosecutors but with regard to the administration of justice as well. I have been told that many of them are very helpful to police magistrates in arriving at a rightful and just decision in respect of their duties.
I know a good many officers. I do not want to over-elaborate. I know some Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers who are' highly respected in their communities because they take an interest in community life. They recognize that an ounce of prevention is much better than a pound of cure. Through their community activities they command respect, and the young people look up to them. They are not afraid of the mounted police, but look upon them as men who are interested in the welfare of the community. When that situation exists it is a healthy sign, particularly when we know they are our protectors.
There is an attitude among some people in the country to besmirch the mounted police and to attempt to make them look ridiculous. When our young people hear that sort of thing it is not good for them, nor is it good for our country. I remember an occasion a good many years ago when I attended an open-air meeting at which a soap-box orator was speaking. One or two mounted police constables were standing around; and this speaker actually pointed them out and said, "There they are; look at the yellow stripes down their trousers. The only thing wrong with that is that it should be down their backs."
I do not think that sort of thing impresses sane-thinking people. Perhaps people of the kind I have described should be thankful that they live in a free country, where they can make statements of that kind without being molested. Re that is it may, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police do not deserve anything like that, and there is a responsibility on the citizens of this country to see that that sort of thing does not happen. We must take people to task if that sort of thing is done.
We are behind this bill, and would be pleased if it went farther. The members of this group believe that these pension schemes

could be well-handled on a non-contributory basis. I shall not go into the economics of the matter, more than to say that these men deserve all we are able to give them, not only in pensions but in pay. I do not believe their pay is high enough in view of their responsibilities. However, that is another subject which does not come within the provisions of the bill. We cannot forget, however, that the cost of living is constantly rising, and these men deserve even more consideration along that line. My last note would be a request for the government to reconsider their scale of pay.


Mr. J. E. MATTHEWS (Brandon):: Mr. Speaker, my remarks will be brief, as they generally are. I shall not refer to any particular sections in the bill, and shall not do more than in a general way express my approval of this important legislation which will redound to the further advantage and further protection of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
I join with all other loyal and law-abiding Canadians in paying respect to this police force, a respect shared not only by the people of Canada but by many thousands in other nations of the world. These men perform their duties midst greater dangers than most of us realize. I know for a fact that often they are ferreting out crimes when most of us are at home and are comfortable, probably asleep. No matter what dangers they have to confront, it can always be said that the mounted police acquit themselves like men.
I believe that in late years they have been successful in doing their work with a greater degree of smoothness and a lesser degree of irritation than was the case some years ago. The hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Hansell) referred to their work among the young people, and their addresses to groups in the different communities. I know a little about that, and it- is my belief that the results have been far-reaching in creating better understanding between these officers of the law and ordinary citizens.
It is not necessary for me to speak at length; but one of the previous speakers suggested that, while a number of anomalies in the act have been remedied, some still remain. I would add to his remarks that every reasonable step should be taken to remove any anomalies which, he suggests, remain in the act. I am in favour of anything within reason that would redound to the advantage of the force.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: Mr. Speaker, I should like briefly this evening to express my approval of the action of the Minister of

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act
Justice (Mr. Ilsley) in bringing this measure before the House of Commons so soon after his taking over his new post.
It was in 1946, shortly after I came to this twentieth parliament that I made the suggestion-I suppose it had been made before, but the fact is that I did make it-that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should be put on a pension basis comparable with that of the armed forces. I am greatly pleased that the minister has done that, and I hope that the armed forces service of those now in the mounted police will be counted immediately for pension purposes, and also for marriage privileges and benefits.
I am advised that service in one of the armed forces is now only counted after the constable has given twenty years of service with the force. I may be wrong in that, and if I am I hope the minister will correct me. I would make one further recommendation, one which has been made by several other members this evening, and it is that, now that the principle of equality with the armed forces in the field of pensions has been recognized, the minister will ask his department and his officers to compare the ordinary pay of mounted police constables and officers with that of those of the armed forces. If anomalies are found, perhaps in a short time he could put them right.
I believe, too, that there should be special pay for certain posts in this service, perhaps for the special investigations branch. Then, consideration might be given to the cost of living in urban centres for members of the force who are posted in large cities where the cost of living rises sharply.
I shall not delay the house much longer, more than to say that, from the speeches tonight, it seems clear to me that further legislation is required to give our mounted police the power to fight the battle in which they are engaged today, the battle against foreign agents and communists in Canada. I believe we must have legislation to give the mounted police power to protect our people and to protect those who are threatened by the agents of a foreign power, who would approve engaging in subversive activities or belonging to subversive organizations in this country.
I am another member of this house who has the greatest admiration for what the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have done for Canada, for their great services to our nation and for the high reputation they have maintained for a number of years. I will close my remarks by saying this. The members of this force are now in the front line of the cold war.
It is the duty of every member of the house and of the government to support them in every possible way.
Mr. NORMAN J. M. LOCKHART (Lincoln) :	Mr. Speaker, there are two points
I wish to bring to the attention of the minister. I will not delay the house by repetitive remarks on our pride in the work that has been and is being accomplished by this force. I will associate myself with most of what has been said. Personally, I would draw to the attention of the minister that at the present time, and back over a period of a year or two in particular, organizations are continually approaching business people for the purpose of raising money under the pretence of some alliance; perhaps they have the name of their nationality or racial origin attached to them. I am satisfied and convinced, from investigation, that this money is going back through these channels into lands where freedom is a thing of the past.
I suggest to the minister that something might be done to bring organizations of this kind more out into the open. They are not only taking money out of the country but are organizing to the extent of getting people of their own nationality and others to join them. There is no accounting for these moneys which are raised. As I say, the activities of these groups should be forced out into the open. The officers of these groups should be known. These groups should be forced to publish the officers' names on their letterheads. I could produce a letterhead of a so-called society, which gives no name of the president. You cannot tell who is who or anything about it. The result is that these organizations often perpetrate things on the community which, I say, ought to be stopped. I do not know whether there is any law in the land which would stop them, but I am drawing the matter to the attention of the minister.
I want to go a step farther, and this is all I intend to say. These same groups at the present time, particularly with respect to displaced persons who are coming into this country, are making it their business to follow every individual under pretence of teaching him the language he is expected to learn. These groups are bringing these people to meeting places under that guise and are teaching them communism in its worst form. They go a step farther. They point out to these people who are loyal citizens of Canada-and I know many of them-that it is their duty and obligation to join these subversive societies, and indicate what will follow if they do not join. I point out to the minister that there

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is a sinister threat to people of this type who, as I say, have made their new homes here in Canada.
This matter was referred to by previous speakers; I believe it was referred to by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Pearkes) in a way. I know of cases within the past three weeks in which it has been pointed out to these people that their safest procedure is to join up with these groups. They are reminded that back home in the land of their origin their own people are living under the type of discipline which they are suggesting to our Canadian citizens that they should follow. Something should be done to strengthen the enforcement of the law through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and every other way possible, in order to bring this kind of thing out into the open more than it has been over the past few years in particular.
This thing is growing, Mr. Speaker. I am sure the mounted police know it. I am sure the minister has a good deal of knowledge of what I am referring to. Those are the two points I wished to make: the question of the raising of money and not having the identity exposed, and using a sinister influence to coerce displaced people and others of racial origin other than ours, in order to bring them under an influence which is not conducive to what is best in Canadian citizenship.
I propose to give the minister or some of the officials some details in this connection from time to time. But I urge those two points upon the minister, so that some provision may be made somewhere in order to bring this matter more to the fore than it is at the present moment.


George Black: For the past fifty years, Mr. Speaker, I have had an opportunity of observing at close quarters and associating with the Royal Canadian Mounted1 Police. When I first knew them, they were not called the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. They were called the Northwest Mounted Police. That was the force which opened up the middle west.
I saw them in the gold rush of 1898. I went through part of Alaska to get into Yukon. In Alaska there was no such thing as law and order. There was murder and robbery, and crime of all kinds was rampant. When you stepped across the boundary into Canada, you were in a different world. There disorder ceased. If a man came into town packing a gun, the mountie would say, "Let me see that gun." He would say, "Old man, I don't think you will need that. You might hurt yourself with it." And the man did not get the gun

back. No one in Yukon carried a gun but members of the mounted police, and then only under exceptional circumstances.
I do not think most people understand or realize the variety of duties performed by the mounted police. They are always ready to go to the rescue of anyone in trouble, no matter what danger or exertion is involved.
This bill is all right as far as it goes, but it does not go far enough. This wonderful police force is underpaid, having in mind the value of the services it gives the general public. The pay is out of all proportion to the importance of their duties, and I say we should pay them better. They are not paid as well as those in other branches of the civil service or the public service generally. The work they do and the services they perform entitle them to more pay than the great maj ority of people in the employ of the government. It is a force to be proud of, the greatest police force in the world, and I am glad that to some extent the minister recognizes that in this bill tonight.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker-


James Horace King: If the minister speaks now he will close the debate.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I have just a few words to say. I know that the many tributes which have been paid to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have been heard by the commissioner with feelings of gratification, as they have been by myself. During this debate ten or eleven speeches have been made on a wide variety of aspects of the work of the mounted police. Suggestions have been made for amendments to the criminal code, which perhaps were hardly in order in this debate, but all of which will be given respectful consideration by my colleagues and myself.
Some questions have been asked as to the principle and meaning of the bill; but, as I said in my opening remarks, I think those questions can be best answered when we are in committee of the whole. The general nature of the bill is well understood by hon. members, but the details can hardly be advantageously dealt with in a speech on second reading. So, without taking more of the time of the house now, I suggest that second reading be given and that we go into committee for a few minutes, so that we may resume the discussion on another occasion.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding in the chair.

Business oj the House
On section 1-"Member of the force."
James Lorimer Ilsley: This section may as well stand. It is late, and I move that progress be reported.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. ILSLEY moved the adjournment of the house.
Lionel Chevrier: Tomorrow we shall
resume the debate on the motion of the Minister of Finance to go into committee of
supply, with the amendment moved by the leader of the C.C.F. party. We hope, with the co-operation of hon. members, to be able to dispose of that debate early in the day. If we are successful, then we shall go into supply and call four departments, agriculture, external affairs, trade and commerce, and transport. We shall proceed first with the Department of Agriculture, and then, if we dispose of it, any other items on the order paper.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 10.55 p.m.

Tuesday, April 27, 1948