1948-02-25

Mr. PARK MANROSS (London):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege affecting not only myself but sixty-four members on this side of the house. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in its eight o'clock news broadcast this morning stated1 that Bill No. 3 yesterday had received approval of the House of Commons by a vote of 102 to 32. Actually the vote was 102 to 92 and, on the amendment, 104 to 96.
My point is that I trust the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation will rectify this error at once and make clear to the people of Canada the actual figures which show that, by these votes, the government had the closest shave in its history.



WAR SAVINGS CERTIFICATES


[Stage Direction]
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT .(Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement in reply to certain questions which have been addressed to me concerning war savings certificates.
On February 19 last the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked me whether consideration had been given by the government, in the interests of convenience on the part of holders of war savings certificates, to the cashing of these certificates at local post offices.
I wish to assure the house that this is a question to which we have given serious consideration during the past year. As hon. gentlemen know, the terms under which these certificates were issued and which are printed on each certificate require that they be endorsed and forwarded to Ottawa for redemption. On several occasions we have considered whether we could not overlook this requirement and allow them to be cashed at local post offices or banks. On each occasion we have been forced to the conclusion that it would be impossible to justify such a procedure.
The primary reason for this decision is the very large number of duplicate certificates which are outstanding. During the last few years a very large number of certificates has been reported lost or stolen and in order to save a lot of trouble and expense to their owners who in so many cases are persons of small income who have not previously owned securities of any kind, we have followed the practice of duplicating the lost or stolen certificates without the production of a bond of indemnity. Hon. gentlemen may be aware that before a bond or coupon which has been reported lost or stolen may be replaced, the owner must arrange indemnification for the Bank of Canada and the government of Canada against any claim in respect of the items reported lost or stolen. This enables us to provide for the cashing of bonds or coupons at local banks.
The number of certificates reported lost or stolen is much too great (it is of the order of sixty thousand) to permit bank tellers or postmasters to check through a list before making settlement, nor could such a list possibly be kept up to date. Even the publication and distribution of such a list, which would run into the size of a book, would be of no use to safeguard against overpayments as it would be perfectly possible that identification would not prevent duplication of payment if the original certificate and the duplicate certificate were presented at different times or different places. The only way in which such overpayment can be prevented is to have the certificates sent to Ottawa and to have them checked against a central registry maintained at Ottawa before payment is made.
I have now explained the main reason why the suggested change in procedure cannot be made. I wish to go on and emphasize how simple and inexpensive the present procedure really is.
All that the holder of a war savings certificate needs to do to get payment for it at maturity is to endorse it on the back as required, insert it in an envelope addressed to the registrar, war savings certificates, Ottawa, and drop the envelope in a mail box. He does not need to send a covering letter, he does not need to send the certificate by registered mail, and he does not even have to put a postage stamp on the letter. If there has been a change of address, it can be noted
War Savings Certificates
[Stage Direction]
on the certificate. Cheques issued in redemption of certificates may be negotiated free of charge at any branch of any chartered bank in Canada upon satisfactory identification.
It is all as simple as that and I wish its simplicity were more widely realized. Perhaps we should have taken steps by advertising or otherwise to explain to the public generally how simple it was, and on this point I would welcome the views of the house.
For those holders who may feel it inconvenient to mail certificates to Ottawa, even though the letter does not require registration or a postage stamp, the banks have offered to provide a collection service for a modest charge. Any person may present his maturing certificates to a branch bank and for a charge of five cents a certificate, regardless of denomination, the bank will forward the certificate for collection and credit the proceeds to the account of the certificate owner. Of course, if the owner wishes safekeeping services as well, there is a standard scale of charges which has been in effect for some time.
A suggestion was made to me that the charge of five cents a certificate made by the banks should be assumed by the government. There are many certificate holders who have no banking accounts and some who are very remote from any bank. A great many holders will in any case prefer to send their certificates directly to Ottawa rather than take advantage of the service offered by the banks. It did not seem to me therefore that the government could justify making all the taxpayers of Canada, including those who perform the service for themselves, assume the cost of a service required by a portion of the public.	[DOT]
Another question about war savings certificates was asked by the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) on February 17 last. It was as follows:
Owing to the fact that it - takes from two weeks to two months from the time a war savings certificate is handed in to a chartered bank for collection before the proceeds are forwarded to the bank from the Bank of Canada, will the minister check with officials of the Bank of Canada to see if the handling and clearance of these certificates can be speeded up so that the holders can get their money promptly without loss of interest?
I have checked with officials of the Bank of Canada and am advised that it is difficult to understand the statement made in the middle of February that it takes from two weeks to two months from the time a war savings certificate is handed in to a chartered bank for collection before the proceeds are

forwarded to the bank from the Bank of Canada. When the banks began taking war savings certificates for collection and sending them in to Ottawa, there was some delay because it took time to get the necessary forms distributed to the head offices and branches of the banks throughout the country but there should no longer be any delay due to this factor.
I am advised that the Bank of Canada made a test examination of the time required to handle maturing certificates received from financial institutions during the current month and found that if the certificates received are all in order the redemption cheques are mailed not later than the fourth day after the certificates are received.
It sometimes happens that certificates are received in advance of their maturity date for redemption at maturity. In these circumstances it is the practice to return the certificates to the sender if there is time for them to reach him and be submitted again by the first of the month in which they mature. An explanatory note is returned with the certificates. If time does not permit of the above procedure, it is the practice to hold the certificates until the month in which they mature and mail a cheque in time to reach the sender or on about the appropriate redemption date, namely, the fifteenth of that month.
I may add that maturing certificates may, if desired, be forwarded by the individual holder as well as by a bank to reach Ottawa on or about the first day of the month in which they mature and the cheque itself will be mailed in time to reach the payee on or about the maturity date of the certificate.
Mr. FRASER:: I would ask the minister to check again because I have specific cases where it has taken from two weeks to two months to receive payment of certificates that have been sent in.


Mr. BURTON:: Is it the minister's considered opinion that it is wise to have these certificates sent unregistered with the sender having no receipt?


Mr. ABBOTT:: It is perfectly proper to do it. As I indicated, we have issued thousands of duplicate certificates. If a certificate is sent by ordinary mail and is lost, on receipt of evidence that the certificate was issued we would issue a duplicate. As I say, that has been done in thousands of cases. The odd one may be lost in the mail, but if the holder wants to make sure he can spend ten cents for registration.

Questions


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The holder would just have to wait another couple of months to get his money.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 1.	Did any officer or agent of the R.C.M.P. investigate or question any students attending the veterans' conference held in Toronto, December 26 to 28, 1947?
2.	If so (a) for what reason; (b) how many were investigated or examined; (c) what conclusions were arrived at?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


PUBLIC BUILDINGS
Mr. McLURE:: 1.	Has the federal government applied for the purchase of a block of land on Queen s square, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island?
2.	Was the application made to the provincial government or to the city council of Charlottetown?
3.	Does the dominion government own the land where the Charlottetown post office is located, and what are the dimensions of same?
4.	What steps are being taken by the government to build a dominion building in Charlottetown to house the federal offices located there?


Air. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	(a) Yes.
(b)	The definite dimensions of the area acquired were never established. According to information on file the property is that upon which the building is located, plus additional yardage and driveway areas.
4.	No steps are being taken pending decision as to a suitable site for the building.


STORAGE FACILITIES FOR P.E.I. POTATOES
Mr. McLURE:: 1.	Has any action been taken by the dominion government to build potato 'warehouses in Prince Edward Island?
2.	If so, what are the specifications required for such warehouses?
3.	Under what policy will these storage facilities be constructed and operated?
4.	To whom will applications be made and at what points will they be located?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Vote 714, further supplementary estimates, 1947-48, provides $100,000 for assistance in
construction of potato warehouses under regulations to be approved by the governor-in-council.
2.	The specifications are those approved in each instance by a committee, with dominion and provincial representation, set up under the regulations as approved by order in council P.C. 4638 of December 3, 1947.
3.	The regulations provide for reimbursement to any province of one-half the share assumed by the province of the completed cost of potato storage warehouses to be erected by growers co-operative associations to previously approved specifications, provided that the undertaking by the province does not exceed seventy-five per cent of the completed cost of the warehouse.
4.	Applications are made by growers' cooperatives to their provincial departments of agriculture; location of the warehouses will depend upon the applications made and approved.


JARVIS, ONT., BOMBING AND GUNNERY SCHOOL LANDS AND BUILDINGS
Mr. ROSS (Hamilton East):: 1.	Has the bombing and gunnery school at Jarvis. Ontario, been declared surplus?
2.	If so, have any of the lands and buildings been disposed of?
3.	What are the names of the purchasers and what amount was purchased by each of them?
4.	What are the details of the lands and buildings remaining at this point?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	(a) Building No. 49-officers' quarters: purchase price, $368; purchased by Norfolk agricultural society, Simcoe, Ontario. Sold for removal and1 restoration of site.
(b)	Building No. 21-drill hall: purchase price, $5,000; purchased by W. F. Kolbe, Port Dover, Ontario'. Sold for removal and restoration of site.
(c)	Building No. 1-headquarters: purchase price, $1,100; purchased by department of education, Province of Ontario, Toronto, Ontario. Sold for removal and restoration of site.
(d)	The following sold for removal and
restoration of sites:
Building No.
2- G.I.S	$ 3,160.00
3-	Officers' quarters	
2,280.004-	Officers' mess	
1,600.005-	N.C.O.'s quarters (40)	
880.006-	N.C.O.'s quarters	
880.007-	N.C.O.'s mess (80)	
1,520.008-	WD's quarters (156)	
1,360.009-	WD's mess (150)	
880.0010-	Hospital (25)	
4,000.00
Questions

Building No.
11-	Canteen, large	
800.0012-	Canteen, small	
640.0013-	O.R.'s mess	
5,360.0014-	O.R.'s quarters	
1,360.0015-	O.R.'s quarters	
1,360.0016-	O.R.'s quarters	
1,360.0017-	O.R.'s quarters	
1,360.0018-	O.R.'s quarters	
1,360.0019-	O.R.'s quarters	
1,360.0020-	Recreation hall	
1,240.0022-Supply depot	
1,400.0023A-M.T. Section,	repair	
320.0023B-M.T. Section,	4 Bay	
160.0023C-M.T. Section,	4 Bay	
160.0023D-M.T. section,	8 Bay	
384.0024-	Workshop	
520.0025-	A.M.L. bomb drop teach....	440.0026- -Turret and inst. bldg	
540.0027-	Spotlight trainer	
1,120.0028-	Compass swing base	
80.0029-	Watch office	
720.0030-	Camera obsoura	
80.0032- 25 yard range	
N/C33-	Dental clinic	
440.0034-	Bomb storage	
160.0035-	Bulk gas storage	
960.0036-	Pyro stores	
120.0037-	W. & B. maintenance	
1,080.0038-	Service garage	
300.00
Hostess house	 464.00
43-	O.R. quarters (136)	
1,600.0044-	Fire hall	
760.0045-	Incinerators	
36.0050-	Detonator stores	
80.0051-	Officers' quarters	(24) ... 1,100.0052-	N.C.O.'s quarters	(48) ... 1,480.0053-	O.R.'s quarters (304)	
4,200.00
Miscellaneous small buildings and improvements (also includes buildings No. 40 coal storage and No.
47 oil and paint stores)	 7,405.00
Hockey rink	 32.00
Purchased by Housing Enterprises Limited, 395 Fleet street, Toronto, Ontario. Purchase price, total: $58,901.00.
(e)	Site of the power sub-station: Purchase price, $100. Purchased by the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario.
4.	Assets remaining: Hangars one to six inclusive, sewage disposal building, pump house, water tank, building 31-guard house and post office, skeet range, house and addition, barn and addition-Lot 11, house and addition and bam

Lot 10, flagstaff, water and sewer services and 598 acres of land.

advertisement "answering tour questions


ABOUT IMPORT CONTROL&quot;
Mr. FULTON:: 1.	In how many (a) daily papers; (b) weekly papers; (e) magazines, both English and French in each case, did the government's advertisement "Answering your Questions about Import Control" appear? In how many issues of each respectively?
2.	What was the total cost of this propaganda?
3.	Out of what vote or appropriation was it paid?
4.	By what member of the government or what official of wThat department were the publication and payment, respectively, authorized?


Mr. BELZILE:: 1.	(a) Daily-90 English, 10 French, 6
Foreign language
(b)	>
Weekly-673 English, 94 French, 40
foreign- language
(c)	Weekend newspapers-2 English, 8 French
(d)	>
Financial publications-10 English, 1
French
'(e) Farm publications-30 English, 4 French
(f>
Labour publications-23 English, 4 French
All the above publications were used once.
2.	'$43,225.00. As all accounts have not been received1 this is the estimated cost of disseminating this information.
3.	Vote 498, wartime prices and trade board.
4.	Hon. D. C. Abbott, Minister of Finance.


MOUNT HOPE, ONT., ELEMENTARY TRAINING SCHOOL LANDS AND BUILDINGS
[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROSS (Hamilton East);
1.	Have -the buildings and other assets at the elementary training school, Mount Hope, Ontario, been declared surplus?
2.	If so, have any of the lands -and buildings been disposed of?
3.	What are the names and addresses of those purchasing same and what -amount was purchased by each of them?
4.	What are the details of land and buildings remaining -at this point?
Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Nine buildings only have been declared surplus.
2.	Yes, eight buildings of the nine declared.
3.	(a) Building A2-O.R. Mess, purchase
price:-$3,808.44; Building A4-O.R. quarters, purchase	price:-$4,180.78;	Purchased by
Housing Enterprises Ltd., 395 Fleet street west, Toronto, Ontario.
(Buildings sold for removal and restoration of sites).

Questions
(b)	Building A25-flame float and sea-markers, Building A26-practice bomb stores with which was included one 1,000 gallon fuel oil tank; Purchase price for the whole:- $105,00, Purchased by S. Feldman & Son, 25 Kent street, St. Catharines, Ontario.
(Sold for removal and restoration of sites).
These structures sold by tender.
(c)	Building A23-O.R. quarters, Building A30-detonator stores, Purchase price for the whole:-$4,340.00, Purchased by the city of Hamilton, Hamilton, Ontario.
(Sold for removal and restoration of sites).
(d)	Building A37-O.R. quarters, Purchase price:-$2,547.17; Purchased by the McMasteT University, Hamilton, Ontario.
(Sold for removal and restoration of site).
(e)	Building A19-Large Canteen, Purchase price:-$1,360.00; Purchased by Housing Enterprises Ltd., 395 Fleet street west, Toronto, Ontario.
4.	The ninth building declared surplus has not yet been sold. This building is known as A5-officers' mess (only that part of the building that includes the two northern wings with the connecting section, namely, one wing 30' x 77', one wing 30' x 89' and the con-


MERCHANTS BANK BUILDING REGINA- RENTAL OP SPACE
Mr. PROBE:: 1.	What area of floor space is leased by the Department of Public Works from the Bank of Montreal, known as the Merchants' Bank building, 2124 Scarth street, Regina?
2.	What annual rental has been paid in each of the years that this building was leased by the Dominion of Canada?
3.	What additional maintenance, insurance, repairs or other costs have been paid annually with respect to these premises?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	Whole of ground floor having an area of 4,459 square feet, and1 1,802 square feet of space on second floor.
2.	Annual rental paid for ground floor: Nov. 1, 1941, to Oct. 31, 1942-$3,600; Nov. 1, 1942, to Oct. 31, 1943-$3,600; Nov. 1, 1943 to Oct. 31, 1944-3,600; Nov. 1, 1944 to Oct. 31, 1945 -$5,400; Nov. 1, 1945 to Oct 31, 1946-$5,400; Nov. 1, 1946 to Oct. 31, 1947-$5,400; Nov. 1, 1947 to Jan. 31, 1948-$1,350.
Annual rental paid for space on second floor: Sept. 1, 1944 to Aug. 31, 1945-$1,800; Sept. 1, 1945 to Aug. 31, 1946-$1,800; Sept.
necting portion 31' x 24' have been declared 1, 1946 to Aug. 31, 1947-$1,800; surplus). to Jan. 31, 1948-$750.				Sept 1, 1947
3. Fiscal Year 1941-	42 	
1942-	43 	Improvements and Repairs 	
$4,931 90 	
129 07	Salaries $ Nil it	Furniture and Fittings $ 904 47 1,565 83 678 39	Light $ Nil 321 091943-44 	
254 87	826 62	332 691944-45 	
383 07	1,300 08 1,245 49 1,487 83 769 02 seal years.	641 97	457 511945-46 	
176 00	2,137 32 107 21	588 971946-47 	
487 35	652 61 229 191947-48 (to Sept. 30) .. The above expenditures	
Nil are only available by fi:	67 77	IMMIGRATION-SELECTION	OFFICERS AT 2.	Ottawa,	Ottawa, Montreal,	, Saskatoon,


HEIDELBERG
Mr. ROSS (Hamilton East):: 1.	What are the names of the six selection officers from the Department of Labour stationed at Canadian Immigration Mission at Heidelberg, Germany?
2.	Where did each reside previous to appointment?
3.	AVhat is the racial origin of each of them?
4.	Were they appointed by the civil service commission or by order in council?
5.	Were the positions advertised?


Mr. COTE (Verdun):: 1.	Mr. V. Cyril Phelan; Mr. C. R. Lee; Mr. J. Lucien St. Cyr; Miss Edith Amas; Miss Beatrice Sauriol, Mr. R. H. Davidson.
Toronto, Ottawa.
3.	Irish, English, French, English, French, Scotch.
4.	All were appointed by the civil service commission with the exception of Mr. Davidson whose re-assignment to this work by the commission is now pending.
5.	Messrs. Phelan and Lee are permanent civil servants on loan to this activity from the Department of Labour and Mr. St. Cyr and Misses Amas and Sauriol are temporary civil servants on loan to this activity from the unemployment insurance commission. Mr. Davidson has been temporarily employed by the labour department on appointment
Questions

through the civil service commission for several years, first on mobilization work at Toronto, and later looking after prisoners of war placements, and at the time of his selection for this work he was on leave of absence pending cessation of previous employment.


ST. MAURICE RIVER WHARVES
Mr. HAMEL:: 1.	Is the government of Canada the owner of certain wharves or piers on the St. Maurice river between Shawinigan and Rapides Blancs?
2.	Since 1935, has any work been carried out on the said wharves ?
3.	If so, what amounts have been spent for such construction or repairs, and to whom have the said amounts been paid?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	Riviere aux Rats, wharf repairs, $12,661.20; St. Roch de Mekinac, wharf repairs, $2,207.41; Grandes Piles (St. Jacques), wharf repairs,
$1,474.84; St. Jean des Piles, wharf repairs, $2,163.31; Grande Anse, wharf repairs, $942.58; Grand'Mere, wharf repairs, $1,460.19; Levesque, wharf repairs, $2,060.92. All of the above works were carried out by day labour.


ICE-BREAKERS
Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	How many ice-breaking ships are owned or controlled by the Department of Transport?
2.	What are the names and cost of operation of these ships for years 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945?
3.	From what ports are these ships operated?
4.	For what period were their services required during the years 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945 in connection with breaking ice and clearing the St. Lawrence river, and what was the cost of each ship during siaid periods?
5.	Were these ships required at any time during said periods for use in Halifax harbour? If so, what periods and what was the cost of operations?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	Eight lighthouse supply and buoy vessels, which are used part time for ice-breaking.
2.	The expenditures for operational expenses were:
Fiscal years ending March 31
Vessel	1940-41	1941-42	1942-43	1943-44	1944-45N.B. McLean 	.... $ 92,272	$ 98,632	$142,082	$136,585	$178,424Ernest Lapointe 	102,796	73,500	93,616	93,331Lady Grey 	.... 29,425	(nil being rebuilt)	57,562	55,857	56,848Saurel 	.... 80,698	109,948	153,711	135,722	140,685Citadelle 	.... 50,940	47,094	47,692	51,900	60,790Brant 	.... 31,053	37.971	33,624	34,845	48,040Dollard 	.... 80,661	93,613	95,719	114,227	144,047Franklin 	17,478	63,314	30,4153.	N.B. McLean, Lady Grey and Ernest Lapointe, Quebec. Citadelle, Halifax and Quebec. Saurel, Charlottetown and Halifax. Brant, Charlottetown, Halifax and Saint John. Dollard and Franklin, Saint John.4.	Separate costs for ice-breaking, clearing the river, transporting supplies, performing mercy trips, assisting ferry boats, standing by, etc., have not been maintained.
The N.B. McLean, Ernest Lapointe, Lady Grey, and Saurel were assigned for such purposes in the St. Lawrence River area from time to time during the following periods:
December 1, 1940 to April 13, 1941; December 1, 1941 to April 17, 1942; December 1, 1942 to April 29, 1943; December 1, 1943 to April 21, 1944; December 1, 1944 to April 1, 1945.
5.	Yes, during the winter of 1943 the Brant and the Franklin spent about 100 hours breaking ice in Bedford Basin and Mill Cove.
TMr. Cote (Verdun).]


PENITENTIARIES-NEW WESTMINSTER, B.C.
Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	How many persons are employed on the staff of the penitentiary at New Westminster, British Columbia?
2.	How many employees left the staff during the calendar year 1947?
3.	How many were (a) dismissed; (b) resigned; (c) retired on superannuation?
4.	Of those resigning, what was the reason given in each case?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	123.
2.	22.
3.	(a) 1; (b) 18; (c) 3.
4.	13 resigned to accept positions with higher salary; 1 on account of ill-health; 1 on account of ill-health in family; 1 for personal reasons; 1 did not consider himself suited to penitentiary employment; 1 no reason given.

Questions


EMPLOYMENT, BY REGIONS
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What is the total number of employed persons in Canada, by regions, as at the latest available date?
2.	What were the corresponding figures as at the same date one year and two years ago?


Mr. COTE (Verdun):: 1 and 2. The total number of employed persons in Canada, by regions, at the latest available date and at corresponding dates one and two years ago is as follows:
Nov. 8, Nov. 9, Nov. 17,
Region	1947	1946	1945Maritimes ....	421,000	421,000	372,000Quebec	
1,353,000	1,322,000	1,236,000Ontario	
1,726,000	1,654,000	1,490,000Prairies	
937,000	944,000	888,000Pacific	
410,000	392,000	342,000Canada	
4,847,000 4,733,000 4,328,000
These figures are based on a sample labour force survey which is carried out by the dominion bureau of statistics every three months.


INCOME TAX-FARMERS-MANITOBA
Mr. MILLER:: 1.	What is the amount of income tax collected from the farmers of Manitoba in the years 1944, 1945 and 1946, and what were the costs of collection?
2.	What is the amount of income tax collected from all sources in Manitoba in the same years, and what were the costs of collection?


Mr. WINTERS:: 1. No information, as the taxation division does not maintain records of tax collections by occupational classifications.
Gross	Cost of	Percentage2. Fiscal collec-	collec-	costyear tions	tion*	of collection1943-44 ..$64,149,085	$ 470.350	0-71944-45 .. 78,540,011	572,186	0-71945-46 .. 77,370,178	643,905	0-8
Exclusive of any apportionment of head office cost to Manitoba.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-FREIGHT CARS
Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	How many new freight cars were ordered by the Canadian National Railways during the year 1947?
2.	What are the names and addresses of firms with whom orders were placed?
3.	How many have to date been delivered by each firm?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	5,700.
2. Canadian Car and Foundry Co. Ltd., Montreal, Que.; The Eastern Car Company Ltd., New Glasgow, N.S.; National Steel Car Corp. Ltd., Hamilton, Ont.
3. Canadian Car and Foundry Co., Ltd. -884 cars; The Eastern Car Company Limited-1,526 cars; National Steel Car Corp. Ltd.-355 cars.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
[Stage Direction]
Ml-. DIEFENBAICER:
How many persons (a) male; (b) female, by provinces, are in receipt of payments under the Unemployment Insurance Act?
Paul-Émile Côté: Province	Male	Female	TotalPrince Edward Island	1,078	213	1,291Nova Scotia 	9,200	1,265	10,465New Brunswick 	4,257	992	5,249Quebec 	32,605	7,565	40,170Ontario 	25,769	7,612	33,381Manitoba 	6,125	2,359	8,484Saskatchewan 	4,644	1,150	5,794Alberta 	4,816	1,172	5,988British Columbia ...	15,259	4,717	19,976Total 	103,753	27,045	130,798
These figures are taken from the unemployment register for the last six working days of January, 1948.


QUESTION OF PENSION TO WIDOW OF CANON TURNER
Mr. CHURCH:: What action, if any, has been taken by the government for the payment of a pension to the widow of the late Canon John Turner, arctic missionary, who was fatally injured in the arctic last fall?


Mr. GLEN:: The late Canon Turner was not an employee of the Department or of the Canadian government and consequently no action has been taken to pay his widow a pension.


SOLDIER SETTLEMENT-INDEBTEDNESS OF SETTLERS OF FIRST WORLD WAR
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	How- many soldier settlers of great war I are still in debt to the Soldier Settlement Board?
2.	What was the original amount of their indebtedness?
3.	To December 31, 1947, what amount has been paid by way of (a) principal; (b) interest?
4.	At December 31, 1947, what amount of (a) prim-inal: (b) interest, did the above settlers still owe?
Questions

5.	Figured on the basis of past performance, how long will it take the above settlers to pay off their indebtedness?
6.	What is the average age of those settlers? _ 7. At December 31 last, how many of those in debt were over (a) 80 years; (b) 75 years; (c) 70 years; (d) 65 years; (e) GO years?
8.	How many have in their homes (a) electric light; (b) running water?
9.	How many farms are fully equipped with a full line of power machinery?
10.	How many require complete new outfits?


Mr. GREGG:: 1.	At December 31, 1947: 3,019.
2 and 3. To provide the information called for, an analysis of each account, averaging eight to ten ledger pages, would be required. Advances were made, not only at time of settlement or shortly thereafter, but also subsequently in the form of payment of taxes and insurance. An estimate that two years and twenty weeks would be required by a man working full time, to complete the analysis, is based on an actual trial of six men analysing two accounts.
4.	(a) $3,172,250.36;
(b) $116,993.75.
5.	During the past four completed fiscal years an average of 752 soldier settlers per year have repaid their loans in cash, and an average of 47 soldier settlers additional have repaid their loans by assignment under time sale.
6 and 7. To provide the information called for, an examination of each individual file would be required. A return made on March 24, 1947, gives a close answer to the questions now asked-correction being necessary only because of lapse of time and decreased number of soldier settlers who are still indebted to the director.
8, 9 and 10. Information not on record in the department.
control of sale of flaxseed


Mr. MENARY:: What steps have been taken by the government to control the sale of flaxseed in 1948-49?


Mr. HOWE:: This question was asked on the orders of the day and the answer was that an announcement with respect to the handling and marketing arrangements for flax covering the crop year 1948-49 will be made at the earliest possible day.


EMBARGO ON EXPORT OF CATTLE TO U.S.
Lewis Menary: What action is being taken by the government to lift the embargo on the export of cattle to the United States of America?


Mr. BELZILE:: It is not the practice of the government to announce any changes in policy in giving answers to questions.


LEAFLET &quot;CANADA'S HEALTH AND WELFARE&quot;
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	What was the date of the publication of the first issue of the leaflet "Canada's Health and Welfare"?
2.	How many issues have been published since then to January, 194'8?
3.	How many copies -were published in each issue?
4.	What is the cost of the publication of each issue?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	October 1945.
2.	28.
3.	Approximately 83,000. (58,000 English and
25,000	French).
4.	The regular eight-page issues cost approximately $2,000 each. The sixteen-page special issues in two colours, which appear every second month, cost approximately $4,550 each.


HYDE PARK AGREEMENT-GENEVA TRADE AGREEMENTS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Is the so-called Hyde Park semi secret wartime agreement made at Easter 1941 in an exchange of notes for the joint defence of' Canada and the western hemisphere, and the United States, for the duration of the war only, still in force in its original form?
2.	What economic extension of it has been made since by an exchange of notes, May, 1945, after Y-E day, between the Minister of National Defence for Canada and the United States Ambassador to Canada, Ray Atherton, to widen and expand it for economic purposes into permanent peace terms, and is this widening and extension for a limited time only, or for' ever ?
3.	Has the international trade charter sanctioned at Geneva and announced on November 17, 1947, validated this economic agreement of May, 1945, and its extension into peace for an unlimited time, and how?


Mr. HARRIS (Grey-Bruce):: ,
1.	The Hyde Park declaration of April 20, 1941, which is distinct from the Ogdensburg declaration of August 18, 1940, concerning the defence of the western hemisphere, is not still in force in its original form.
2.	The exchange of notes of May, 1945, extended the spirit of the Hyde Park declaration to cover the mutual problems of the period of transition from war to peace. No terminal date was mentioned.
3.	There is nothing in the declaration and the exchange of notes which required validation by the general agreement on tariffs and trade negotiated at Geneva.

Questions


INCOME TAX-WABOWDEN AND THICKET PORTAGE, MAN.
Mr. MOORE:: 1.	How many persons living in Wabowden and district paid income tax in the following years, 1942 to 1947, inclusive?
2.	What was the total amount of the tax in each year ?
3.	How many persons living in Thicket Portage and district paid income tax in 1942 to 1947, inclusive?	.
4.	What was the total amount of the tax in each year?


Mr. WINTERS:: 1.	No information, as the accounting records of the taxation division are not maintained in such a manner as to show, in respect of any fiscal year, either the number of taxpayers resident in small communities or the total amount of tax which they have paid.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	Answered by No. 1.


UNITED NATIONS-PALESTINE COMMISSION
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Who are the five members, and of what countries, as announced by the UNO appointed as commission for the partition of Palestine?
2.	What stand did Canada take on it?


Mr. HARRIS (Grey-Bruce):: 1.	The Commission on Palestine established in accordance with a General Assembly Resolution of November 29, 1947, consists of: Mr. Karel Lisicky (Czechoslovakia), Chairman; Mr. Raul Diez de Medina (Bolivia), Vice Chairman; Mr. Per Federspiel (Denmark) ; Mr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama); Senator Vicente J. Francisco (Philippines).
2.	Canada supported the General Assembly Resolution of 29 November, 1947, which provided for the partition of Palestine with economic union.


EXPORT OF MALT AND MALTING BARLEY
Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	Were export licences issued to Canadian malt manufacturers in 1948 for the export of mialt to the United States of America? If so, on what date and for what amount?
2.	Was any export of malting barley to the United States of America permitted in 1948? If so, on what date and for what amount?
Mr. MoILRAITH:
1.	Yes, as follows: February 17, 1948-
850.000	lbs; February 18, 1948-85,000 lbs; February 20, 1948-85,000 lbs; February 20, 1948-85,000 lbs; February 25, 1948-85,000 lbs.
2.	No.


IMMIGRATION-CHINESE
Mr. CAMPBELL:: Are wives and families of Chinese Canadian citizens now being allowed entry into Canada and if not, when can they expect to be able to get entry permits?


James Allison Glen: Yes. As applications are received, settlement arrangements are investigated. Applicants are then informed that they will be notified as soon as the immigration office has been reopened in Hong Kong in order that they may advise their family to come forward for examination. A superintendent of immigration will be proceeding to Hong Kong shortly and it is expected that his office will be in operation within two months.


IMPORTS FROM RUSSIA
Mr. DUBOIS:: 1.	During 1947, what kind of goods did Canada import from Russia?
2.	What quantity in each case?
3.	What was the money value in each case?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1, 2 and 3.
Imports to Canada from Russia during the calendar year 1947.
Item
Essential oil, n.o.p	
Fur skins, raccoon, undressed 

Fur skins, fox, undressed	
Fur skins, Persian lamb, undressed
Fur skins, squirrel, undressed ....
Fur skins undressed, n.o.p	
Fur skins, dressed n.o.p	
Manufactures of fur, n.o.p	
Carpets, oriental	
Bank notes, printed matter, n.o.p. . Books, printed, periodicals, n.o.p. .
Books, foreign language	
Phonograph records	
Cameras and camera parts, n.o.p. .
Unit	Qty.	ValueLb.	5	$ 90No.	2,050	4,688No.	1,474	6,284No.	6,998	57,525No.	84,000	66,149No.	8,430	11,173$	-	412S	-	5,780Sq. ft.	13,017	26,870$	-	295$	-	804$	-	5098	-	416$	-	125
Questions

EXPORTS TO RUSSIA, 1947 Mr. DUBOIS:
1. During 1947, what kind of goods did Canada export to Russia?
Exports from Canada to Russia
2.	What quantity in each case?
3.	What was the money value in each case?


George James McIlraith: 1, 2 and 3.
during the calendar year 1947.
Item	Unit	Qty.	ValueWhiskey 	13	S 68Gin 	62	785Haddock, canned 	8,515	186,934Herrings, sea canned 	208,333	2,663,468Sea fish, canned, n.o.p	6,905	151,491Boots, shoes, leather uppers, men's 	
Pair	30,128	45,590Canned meats, n.o.p	
Lb.	3,935,961	702,731Cotton fabrics, coated	
Yd.	2,168	9,617Books, bound or unbound	
8	-	158Gas engines and parts	-	145Cultivators 	5	1,079Threshing machine separators	
s	1,853Farm implements, n.o.p	
$	-	1,354Machinery and parts, n.o.p	
s	-	75,388Autos, freight, new, over one ton	
No.	16	32,600Automobile parts 	
S	-	145Scales and weighing beams	-	86Electric motors and parts	77	577,953Switches and wiring devices	
$	-	49,601Electrical apparatus, n.o.p	
s	-	4,076Glass and glassware, n.o.p	
s	-	2,280Medicinal preparations 	
s	31,891Enamels and lacquers	18Soda and sodium compounds	311	6.132Radium and salts	60,000Drugs, dyes and chemicals, n.o.p	
$	__	1,526Packages 	180Refrigerators and parts, electric	2	1,140Dental, surgical, hospital equipment	
$	-	8,508Scientific apparatus, n.o.p	
s	-	4,840Settlers' effects	. .	6,335Donations and gifts parcels	
s	-	238,384


HEALTH AND WELFARE-LABORATORY OF HYGIENE
Mr. KIRK:: What are the functions of the laboratory of hygiene in. the Department of National Health and Welfare?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	To serve as the public health laboratory of the dominion government.
2.	Under the Food and Drugs Act to be responsible for the safety and potency of all biological products coming under Schedule B, Part III. These biological products consist of preparations such as penicillin, streptomycin, serums, toxoids and bacterial vaccines. The laboratory of hygiefie undertakes all bacteriological analyses of food as required under the Food and Drugs Act.


UNITED NATIONS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What countries or governments have been appointed by the united nations organization for the Greek frontier commission, and of how many members does this commission consist; and do the countries chosen agree to send armed forces, and how many guns and other military forces, to enforce the UNO authority?
2.	How many, and by what government, are to be sent by the UNO to Korea, on a commission and will this commission have any authority or armed force to enforce it?


Mr. HARRIS (Grey-Bruce):: 1. At the second session of the general assembly, at the conclusion of the debate on the subject of threats to the political independence of Greece, a special committee was

Orders for Returns
established consisting of representatives of Australia, Brazil, China, France, Mexico, the Netherlands, Pakistan, the United Kingdom and the United States of America with seats being held open for Poland and the U.S.S.R. The committee consists at the present time of nine members only, since Poland and the U.S.S.R. have refused to participate. The countries represented on the committee have not agreed to send armed forces to enforce the authority of the committee. The terms of reference of this committee state that it shall observe the compliance of Albania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Greece with the recommendations of the general assembly; be available to assist the four governments in the implementation of the resolution of the general assembly; and report to the next regular session of the general assembly.
2. The united nations temporary commission on Korea consists of representatives of nine member states of the united nations. These states are: Australia, Canada, China, El Salvador, France, India, Philippines, Syria, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. At the present time however the Ukrainian S.S.R. is not represented on the commission which accordingly is composed of only eight representatives. The commission was established in accordance with two resolutions of the general assembly of 14 November 1947 and is designed to facilitate and expedite a program for the attainment of the national independence of Korea and the withdrawal of occupation forces. Inasmuch as the functions of the commission are purely advisory it possesses no authority to regulate or administer the people or the occupying forces in Korea. It has no armed force at its disposal.


OPIUM AND NARCOTIC DRUG ACT-CONVICTIONS
Mr. FARQUHAR:: How many convictions were obtained during the judicial year ended September 30, 1947, under the provisions of the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act which is administered by the Department of National Health and Welfare?


Mr. MARTIN:: Province	Male	Female	TotalNova Scotia 	3	-	3Quebec 	18	4	22Ontario 	77	33	110Manitoba 	13	7	20Saskatchewan 	7	-	7Alberta 	5	4	9British Columbia .	74	20	94Total 	197	68	265



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. MILLER:: What amount was collected under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, by provinces, and what was the cost of collecting same, in the years 1945, 1946 and 1947?
Mr. MclLRAITH: Return tabled.


SUBSIDIES OR SUBVENTIONS TO INDUSTRY
Mr. McCUAIG:: 1.	Do any government departments pay subsidies or subventions, or make any other form of direct financial payment to industry? If so, what departments?
2.	To what companies have such payments been made?
3.	What were the total payments to each company in each year from 1940 to 1947 inclusive?


AIR TRAINING SCHOOLS-CHINESE PILOTS
Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	Are there any air-training schools in Canada where Chinese pilots are being trained for the government of China? If so, how many are there, and where are they located?
2.	Are Canadian newspaper reporters allowed to visit these schools and report on them?
3.	Are Canadian citizens allowed to visit and observe these schools in operation?


Mr. GIBSON (.Hamilton West):: Return tabled.


IMPORTS OF RYE
Mr. ARGUE:: 1.	How many bushels of rye were imported into Canada from the United States for each month of 1946 and 1947?
2.	What rate or rates of duty were paid during the above period?


EMPLOYEES IN PUBLIC SERVICE
Mr. FRASER:: 1.	How' many men and women were employed in each department or agency of the government fl) in Ottawa; (2) outside of Ottawa, on December 31, 1946, showing (a) number of men in each department or agency; (b) number of w'omen in each department or agency; (c) number under civil service; (d) temporary basis?
2.	How many men or women were employed in each department or agency, of the government (1) in Ottawa; (2) outside of Ottawa, on December 31, 1947, showing (a) number of men in each department or agency; (b) number of women in each department or agency; (c) number tinder civil service; (d) temporary basis?


GRANTS TO PROVINCES FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES
Mr. MOORE:: What grants are allotted by the government for educational purposes to the provincial governments, other than Manitoba?
Motions for Papers


IMPOSTS OF FRUITS AND VEGETABLES
Mr. WHITE (Middlesex East):: 1.	What are the quantities of the various fruits and vegetables imported into Canada during the past five years, by years, as set forth in items 87 and 92 of schedule I, Bill No. 3?
2.	What are the values of each of the above fruits and vegetables imported in each year?


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. CAOUETTE:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the post office department and any person or persons, during the past two years, regarding mail carrier delivery in the towns of Rouyn-Noranda.


PRICE CEILING ON POTATOES
Mr. HATFIELD:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the Minister of Finance and the Premier of Prince Edward Island, from November 15 to December 15, 1947, in regard to potatoes or a price ceiling on potatoes.


DISPATCH OF CANADIAN ARMED FORCES TO HONG KONG-EVIDENCE BEFORE DUFF COMMISSION
Mr. BRACKEN:: For a copy of the evidence taken before the Duff commission in connection with dispatching Canadian armed forces to Hong Kong.


Mr. CLAXTON:: Mr. Speaker, as the Prime Minister announced in his statement yesterday, he has no objection to this motion being carried on the conditions set out in his statement.


John Bracken: The Prime Minister in his statement yesterday indicated that it would be necessary to paraphrase certain of the cipher messages before these documents could be tabled. Can the Minister of National Defence give us some idea of how long that will take?	*


Brooke Claxton: It will take some considerable time. I have had a search made through the record since yesterday and I find there are over 300 exhibits and 2,300 pages of evidence. The evidence, as hon. members will understand, refers frequently to the exhibits. So far it has been found that more than 90 exhibits are service communications, that is, communications between one branch of the armed services of this country and another, or between the armed services of this country and the United Kingdom. Those will have to be examined from that point of view. It will take some considerable time, but it will be done with all possible dispatch.


Mr. GRAYDON:: In view of the fact that the Prime Minister very quickly seemed to adopt the suggestion made yesterday by the hon. member for Quebec South (Mr. Power) that the British government should be asked to review the position in connection with the Hong Kong evidence, might I ask the minister whether or not that request has already been directed to the British government, and if not does the government intend to do so?


Brooke Claxton: My understanding is that the communication has gone forward, but that is a question that would have to be answered by the Prime Minister himself.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: In view of the fact that the Prime Minister is entering into negotiations with the British government with respect to these documents, should not this motion stand until we know what reply the Prime Minister receives? It might make a difference to the vote of some members of the house on the matter. If the leader of the opposition would ask that the motion stand I think it would be much more satisfactory to await a reply from the British government.


John Bracken: I have heard no objection expressed to the passage of this motion. The Minister of National Defence has just said that the documents would be tabled in the light of the statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday, and I think the house is disposed to accept the motion on that understanding.


Brooke Claxton: We have no objection to either course.


Gordon Graydon: If the motion passes I presume it is subject to the remarks of the Prime Minister and of the member for Quebec South?


Brooke Claxton: The remarks of the member for Quebec South were addressed to the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister said that he would communicate with the British government. The house can rest assured that the Prime Minister will do that, if it has not already been done, and I understand it has been.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. HAZEN:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between F. J. Stock, traffic manager, foreign freight department, Canadian National Railways, or any other official of the Canadian National Rail-

Motions for Papers
ways and Moore-McCormack Lines Incorporated,	YEAS
during the year 1947, with respect to freight	,,
ra,fps.	Messrs:


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, there is an objection to this order passing. A practice has grown up in this house over the years by which the Canadian National Railways are not required to produce correspondence or telegrams of this nature. This is not a new practice. With reference to the letter to which the motion refers, because of certain statements that were made by my hon. friend I produced the letter in the course of a certain debate in this house, but if this motion were to pass and the request of the hon. member were granted he would be obtaining information that other members have not been able to get. I remember last year on one if not two occasions hon. members were refused information of this kind, I trust that because of the practice which has grown up the hon. gentleman will not press his motion.


Douglas King Hazen: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transport when he spoke in the house in the debate on the address on February 11 saw fit to quote from a letter from Moore-McCormack to an official of the Canadian National Railways. I had not asked him to produce that letter, but he saw fit to quote from it, and then he read it into the record. It seems to me, sir, that if a minister of the crown produces one letter in a series dealing with a particular matter between the same parties he should be obliged to produce all the letters, and I would ask for a ruling on that point.


Lionel Chevrier: I think I should explain to the house just how it happened that the letter was placed on the table. The hon. gentleman made certain affirmations that officers of the Canadian National Railways had discriminated against the port of Saint John. The letter was produced in order to show definitely that such was not the case, but that on the contrary the Canadian National Railways officials had done everything in their power to keep within the ports of Saint John and Halifax the business of the Moore-McCormack Lines. What my hon. friend seeks to do is, because that letter was produced in order to answer a charge made by him-


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the minister but it is against the rules to have a debate on these motions. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Mr. DORION:: I was paired with the hon. member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges (Mr. Beaudoin). Had I voted I would have voted in favour of the motion.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I was paired with the hon. member for Algoma East (Mr. Farquhar), who is absent owing to illness. Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.


John Bracken: Out of courtesy to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), in his absence, I did not vote. Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.


Mr. JAQUES:: I was paired with the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane (Mr. Cote). Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.


Mr. GARIEPY:: I was paired with the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton (Mr. Hatfield). Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.
(Translation):


Mr. LACOMBE:: Mr. Speaker, I was paired with the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand). Had I voted, I would have voted for the motion.

(Text):


BUREAU OF STATISTICS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. N. J. M. LOCKHART (Lincoln):: Mr. Speaker, could I have an answer to my question which is recorded in Hansard of yesterday? It had to do with a bureau of statistics return. I just wanted to get information as to why the return was up to 1945 only and not to 1948.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to get the information.


PUBLIC WORKS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South)1: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works, of which I sent him notice. It arises out of a telegram from Saint John, New Brunswick, suggesting that there are eight hundred men unemployed in the dry docks. Has the minister's department been requested to place the order for the building of a public works dredge with the Saint John dry dock in order to alleviate the present unemployment situation?
Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: I thank the hon. member for sending me notice of this question. To answer the first part of the question; requests have been made that we go ahead with the construction of a new dredge to be used on the eastern coast. To the second part of the question I would answer that on January 28 we did ask for tenders for a new dredge. A few days later we received one bid for $363,000, containing an escalator clause as to labour and material. The estimate made in my department for the dredge was $259,200. My officials advise me that later on we should ask for new tenders, on account of the discrepancy between the only tender received and the estimate made by my own department.


Mr. REID:: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Public Works, seeing that he is in such a receptive mood. Will he consider the building of a dredge for the Pacific coast, where he knows at the present time there are only two, and that they are fifty or more years old?

Inquiries oj the Ministry


Alphonse Fournier: The Department of Public Works is always ready to consider a fair request for any dredging. Last year we had a vote in the general estimates for dredging on the east coast, and an amount was allotted for these small dredges of three and a half cubic yards. I would remind the house that the hon. member for New Westminster is speaking of dredges which cost about $2,000,000. We will certainly consider the request.


Mr. WARREN:: If it is true that the Minister of Public Works is in a receptive mood today, may I ask him a question?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Ralph Melville Warren: Is the minister prepared to place again in his estimates an amount to take care of the building of a bridge across the Ottawa River by way of Morrison's island this year ?


Mr. FERGUSON:: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Public Works-


Ralph Melville Warren: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect I would like to have an answer from the Minister of Public Works. If he is not in a position to answer today, perhaps he would do so at a later date.


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Speaker, a delegation from the northern part of the hon. member's riding came to my office to interview me with respect to the construction of a bridge across the Ottawa River beyond Morrison's island. I have instructed my engineers to look into the matter and give me an estimate. I will consider any estimate that would be reasonable. That estimate will be submitted to the government, and when a decision is reached the estimate will be tabled.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Mr. Speaker, we do not want members of the government to eat up all the reserves. Will the minister double the harbour work at Collingwood and start at once the extension to the dock at Barrie, Ontario?



INCOME TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. Is he in a position to advise what the situation is with regard to the investigation that is now taking place in connection with the income tax office in Saskatoon? What suspensions have been made of staff, and whether it is the intention
of his department to take proceedings either against officials or income taxpayers who made returns allegedly incorrectly?


Hon. J. J. McCANN (Minister of National Revenue):: On October 30, Mr. Speaker, owing to certain staff irregularities in our income tax office at Saskatoon, five members of the staff were suspended. Since that time a complete investigation has been made of the irregularities, both by the officers of the Saskatoon division and by our inspector and our staff of the head office in Ottawa. Admission has been made in some cases, which has been confirmed by the investigation, that there were certain irregularities with reference to the filing of income tax returns of certain taxpayers in order to avoid penalties for late filing. The admission by one man who was an employee of the office was to the effect that these returns had been manipulated and that over one hundred returns in all were involved. As a result of the investigations orders in council have been passed whereby the five members so involved have been dismissed from the service.


Mr. R. R. KNIGHT (Saskatoon City):: It would seem that I now have an opportunity to ask my question, after waiting a long time. The question I have to ask is supplementary to the one answered by the Minister of National Revenue. He said that five people at. Saskatoon had been dismissed from positions in the income tax branch. I would ask him if those five were the only persons under suspicion and suspended on that account. If there were others have those now proved to be innocent been exonerated and reinstated in their positions?


James Joseph McCann: I have no knowledge at the present time of any other than the five to whom I have made reference.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. MILTON F. GREGG (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Referring to the first part of the question asked the day before yesterday by the hon. member for Kingston City (Mr. Kidd), may I say that it has been arranged to increase the allowance of the dependent parent or parents of veteran students under university and vocational training by $10 per month as from January 1, 1948. Referring to the suplementary or second part of his question dealing with service pensioners, if he means a service pension accruing to
Reprints of Members' Speeches
[Stage Direction]
permanent force personnel for their long service, as distinct from disability, that part should be directed to the Minister of National Defence.
Mr. T. A. KIDD (Kingston City):: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Gregg) has answered a question submitted on Monday with respect to single veterans attending university and who are supporting dependent widowed mothers. May I ask now a supplementary question of the Minister of National Defence, which is to be found at page 1489 of Hansard for February 23, as follows:
When will the minister make an announcement in reference to extra assistance o-r a cost-of-living bonus to the service pensioners as well?


Brooke Claxton: I am sorry, but I did not catch the question. Was it directed to the consideration of pensions for long service of members of the armed forces?


Thomas Ashmore Kidd: Yes.


Brooke Claxton: Consideration has been given to that question, and the same answer should be given as was given by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott), in a press release dated January 23, which was tabled in the house on January 26. For the same reason set out there, the government is not of the opinion that any increase should be given in such cases. The reason, very briefly, is this, that the pensioners in question contributed to their pension; the terms of contribution were well known, and it was an arrangement over a number of years. Those pensioners are in virtually the same position as superannuated civil servants. I should add that, so far as I know, the rates of pension are the highest of any country in the world.



POSTAL SERVICE

[Stage Direction]
INQUIRY WITH RESPECT TO MAIL DISTRIBUTION OF NEWSPAPER "LE COMBAT*'
On the orders of the day:
Frédéric Dorion: I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General. Will the minister tell the house what measures he intends to take to prevent the distribution by mail of the communist newspaper Le Combat, which was outlawed by legal authorities in the province of Quebec?


Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Postmaster General):: I have not seen in the press or anywhere else that Le Combat had been found guilty by the courts or that it had been indicted. Therefore I cannot, on account of

the offices of this newspaper having been padlocked, order the banning of a newspaper from the post office. We shall have to find something else.

REPRINTS OF MEMBERS* SPEECHES-CIRCULAR ISSUED BY KINO'S PRINTER
On the orders of the day:


Colin William George Gibson: On February 10 the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) asked that either His Honour the Speaker or I look into the recent circular issued by the king's printer with reference to reprints from Hansard.
The hon. member referred to the second report of the joint committee on printing to be found at page 887 of Journals, dated July 14, 1947, and objected that, as concurrence in the report had not been moved, it was a breach of the rights and privileges of hon. members that the recommendations contained in the report should have been put into effect.
Since that time I have received a letter from the hon. member respecting Hansard reprints, emphasizing that he is quite prepared to accept changes in the regulations that are made and approved by the House of Commons and requesting that the previous regulations be continued until such time as any changes are approved by the House of Commons.
I should like to point out that while the joint committee on printing has authority to decide what papers and reports shall be printed, all matters concerning the contents and distribution of Hansard come under the jurisdiction of the committee on debates. Parliament has left it to the king's printer, under the provisions of the Printing and Stationery Act, to set such charges as he deems necessary to meet the cost of printing members' orders for reprints of speeches contained in Hansard.
Recently there has grown up a practice for which there has been no authorization or regulation. Some members of various parties have ordered the printing of pamphlets purporting to be reprints of speeches as contained in Hansard, but which have been considerably altered, through deletions or amendments, from the original text. In many cases subheadings have been inserted, passages have been underlined and in some cases the cover has been adorned with the portrait of the member making the speech. The printing of pamphlets containing such additions does not come within the scope of the duties of the king's printer.

Inquiries of the Ministry
As hon. members may well understand, a reprint from Hansard does not involve much expenditure of time or money; but the printing of speeches which have been distorted from the original text involves the resetting of type, with consequent loss of time and additional expense, at a time when the staff of the printing bureau is working at high pressure to produce not only Hansard but reports of various committees.
Under the circumstances I instructed the king's printer to accept orders for copies of speeches as contained in Hansard only, and to charge therefor the actual cost of printing.


Mr. KNOWLES:: May I, Mr. Speaker, as the one who raised this question of privilege, just say a word?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


James Horace King: The hon. member knows he may put questions, but when he puts a question he may not make a statement.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the Secretary of State a question? Will he himself, or will he have some member of the government, arrange for a meeting of the debates committee, so that this matter can be gone into and a decision reached on behalf of the House of Commons as a whole?


Mr. COLDWELL:: May I ask a supplementary question of the Secretary of State? I agree with what he said, that there should be no deletions or alterations in the Hansard report; but may I suggest that it would be well to call a meeting of the debates committee. I think that would be a much more satisfactory way of reviewing the matter. I have forgotten who the chairman of the committee is, but perhaps the minister would use his good offices to get the chairman to call the committee together.


Colin William George Gibson: I think any member of the committee on debates can call a meeting.


Major James William Coldwell: We have been informed that the only way a private member can get the committee together is by putting a motion on the order paper. Such a motion would go to the foot of the list, and therefore would be quite ineffectual in meeting the situation.


Gordon Graydon: In theory what the minister says about calling the committee together is quite correct. In practice it is anything but correct. Actually the government has to give the green light for committees to be set up. I think it is a simple matter for the minister to do it.


James Horace King: Order. I would call the attention of hon. members to the fact that the committees have not been appointed.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, they have been.


James Horace King: I wish to apologize to the house. For the first time, I believe, I have made a misstatement.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


James Horace King: I said to the house that committees had not yet been appointed. As hon. members know, it is the practice to appoint committees after the vote on the address in reply. This year, however, the appointment was made before that time. Therefore I must make that correction; and I must add that I am grateful that no one registered an appeal from my statement.



REFRIGERATOR CARS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, and for several days before, some concern was expressed in the house with respect to the shortage of refrigerator cars in the maritime provinces, particularly in Prince Edward Island1. The hon. member for Queens (Mr. McLure) asked a question, as did also the senior member for Halifax (Mr. Isnor). The hon. member for Prince (Mr. MacNaught) has written me a letter, and I have replied to him outlining the situation. I would have no objection to tabling the letter.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: Don't establish a precedent.


Lionel Chevrier: I believe I could answer the questions which have been asked if I were to read one paragraph from this letter, which brings up to date the position with respect to refrigerator cars. The letter states:
During the period February 10 to 22 inclusive there was an average of twenty-two cars of potatoes shipped from Prince Edward Island and there were forty-five empty refrigerator cars ready for placing. It is pointed out, however, that during this past season up to February 22,- there were 4,673 cars of potatoes shipped from Prince Edward Island and for the previous season up to February 22, the total figure was 4,709 ears, and when it is considered that the estimated crop for this past season is
8,000	cars, whereas it was 10.000 cars the previous year, it would appear that the potato shippers have received fair treatment this year
The Address-Mr. Sinnott

as it is estimated that they have only about 3,500 more ears to ship, whereas last year they had 5,500 cars to ship.
The present situation is that there are 250 refrigerator cars now at Atlantic ports waiting for steamer to clear, and as soon as these are made empty they will be forwarded to Prince Edward Island for loading, which should grant considerable relief, and as meat has started to move on a large scale, a continued supply of refrigerator cars should be available.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, February 19, consideration of the motion of Mr. J. A. Dion for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Bracken, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell.
Mr. J. S. SINNOTT (Springfield):: Mr. Speaker, I notice that it is fifteen minutes after four, and only now have we been able to get going; I hope therefore you will give me a few minutes.
In the short time which was at my disposal before eleven o'clock on Thursday last I mentioned that all the hydro-electric developments supplying power to Manitoba were located in the constituency of Springfield. The Winnipeg river, which originates at the Lake of the Woods, Ontario, and flows into lake Winnipeg, has thirty-three falls, of which only three are partly developed at the present time. Therefore Manitoba has an abundance of power to be developed in the years to come. There will be no need of shutting off power and causing inconvenience to customers. The manufacturer who wants an abundance of cheap and reliable electric power should come to Manitoba where there is a steady flow of electricity which does not blink as it does in some of the cities down here.
I always feel at home in this building, and I have good reasons. When you look around the walls and the halls of this building what do you see? You see some of the finest building stone to be found in Canada. The stone making up the pillars and the inside walls comes from the constituency of Springfield. It is known as Tyndall stone, and it is obtained from the Garson quarries. These were founded by the father of the present Premier of Manitoba, who did not live to see his son achieve the high honour he now has. These walls, so well constructed, are a monument to Manitoba; they are a monument to the constituency of Springfield which I have the honour to represent. I might mention that the Bank of Canada building is

also constructed of Tyndall stone. This quarry consists of fifty feet of solid rock with very little topsoil to be removed. The deposit is found over approximately two sections or 1,280 acres of land.
I should like to refer also to dairying. If Canada generally had the energetic types of citizen that we have in Springfield, there would be no calls at the present time for oleomargarine. In my constituency are 108 large milk shippers who, along with many hundreds of others, ship cream to the various dairies in Winnipeg and Beausejour. I want to pay a compliment to the Beausejour creamery which operates in the town of Beausejour for its success in having obtained second place in a dominion-wide butter competition. We have some of the best dairymen, bar none, in Canada. We will not stand idly by if a challenge should come from that great nation to the south.
I have mentioned the energetic type of citizen to be found in the constituency of Springfield. There are Anglo-Saxons of course, but there is a large section of French, Ukrainians, Germans, Polish, Finnish, Swedish and many others. It is one of the most cosmopolitan rural constituencies in Canada. There is no minority problem in Springfield. It does not matter where your ancestors came from so long as you can produce the goods. Not only are the citizens of Springfield able; they are also outstanding in appearance. Just take one look at me and you will know that. Looks and health always go hand in hand.
I notice by the Financial Post that the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) has agreed to act as a judge in a nation-wide baby contest. I hereby invite the leader of the opposition to come to the agricultural fair to be held this fall at Beausejour where the babies are bound to be healthy and beautiful. If that is not sufficient inducement to the hon. gentleman, we will not draw the line when it comes to the age of the babies.
In addition to abundant hydro electricity in Manitoba we have an unlimited1 supply of the best water in the world which originates in the constituency of Springfield east of Winnipeg. By way of diversification, we also have a number of lumber mills and a large paper mill at Pine Falls. At the present time this mill employs about 2,000 men, some of them operating the mill while others are cutting and delivering pulpwood to the mill. At this point I would remind the Postmaster General (Mr. Bertrand) that I have asked him continually for a new post office at Pine Falls. I am sorry he is not in his seat at the moment. At the present time the people of this thriving community have to wait hours for their mail

The Address-Mr. Sinnott
to be sorted because of the congested quarters in which the post office operates. It is housed in a little building twelve by sixteen, making it most inconvenient for the people of Pine Falls and almost impossible for the postmaster and his assistants, who have to handle as many as thirty-three bags of mail in a day.
I am again asking the Postmaster General to realize that it is his responsibility to have this post office built at as early a date as possible, and that Tyndall stone be used. We have plenty of stone, plenty of men available to quarry it and plenty of stone-masons to construct the building-all in Springfield. At the present time the revenue from the post office is within a few dollars of $10,000 per year and I would urge again that the Postmaster General and his department proceed with this work at the earliest possible moment.
As I mentioned before, we have mines which are just in their infancy. We also have some well established gold mines at Wadhope and Bissett. Bissett is one of the larger mines employing many hundreds at the present time in the northeastern part of the constituency. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) for the assistance recently offered by the government to new producers.
We have also a large clay brick industry in the town of Whitemouth.
The eastern end of my constituency, where there are many hundreds of lakes teeming with fish, is a boon to the tourist industry, and is a great drawing card to the many thousands of tourists who come to Canada every year. But at the present time our visiting neighbours to the south experience much difficulty because of the roundabout road which they have to travel. I am asking the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen) to develop tourist roads for the tourist trade, and that considerable thought be given to the development of the vast territory in northeastern Springfield. A tremendous tourist trade can be developed there, and I would advocate the contribution by the dominion government of an all-weather road from a point on No. 1 highway at Whitemouth, Manitoba, directly south through the towns of Elma, Medika, Hadashville, and through the Sandy Lands forest connecting at a point on the United States boundary called Piney, where there is an all-weather road. This would enable the people of Minnesota to have a direct route to Canada and at the same time would provide the people of this part of the constituency with a road which they have been wanting and awaiting for so long. I have also brought this matter up from time to time with the minister of public works in Manitoba.
In the southwestern portion of Springfield constituency many farmers have contributed their efforts to the new beet growing industry which is playing a large part in solving our sugar difficulties. I hope that the government will deal fairly with these beet growers, who have had a relatively hard time in past years owing to insect ravages and a continual shortage of help.
Along the Red River are some of the finest market gardens in Canada. In the spring and summer one can see these hardy gardeners out in the fields as early as four o'clock in the morning and until long after dark at night. They originate mostly from the central Ukraine in Europe. They make excellent gardeners, not being concerned in the least about a forty-hour week.
The hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) made a remark the other day about growing vegetables in British Columbia. While they may be able to grow good vegetables there, they have nothing on us in the constituency of Springfield.
We have another industry of which there are relatively few in Canada, and that is the big moss plant located four miles west of Whitemouth. This particular moss deposit is approximately sixteen feet in depth and covers about four sections of land. The plant employs many men on a year-round basis, the moss being put to many uses, such as insulation, litter for chickens, and many other things. The type of machinery used in this plant is quite odd. As the ground is so soft it is necessary to operate different machinery from the ordinary. A small type caterpillar is used, with very large crawler tracks which enables it to travel over the soft ground marking the blocks, which are later thrown out by hand and left in large piles for a number of weeks to dry. They are then taken to the drier plant, afterwards going through a shredder, thence to the baler, and loaded into cars, approximately 360 bales to a car. A large portion of this moss goes to Louisiana in the United States. At the present time this peat moss is too expensive for use as fuel.
The total commercial marketings of grain for crop district No. 4 which I represent were: wheat, in the year 1944, 1,268,342 bushels; oats, in the year 1946, 1,776,563 bushels; barley, in the year 1946, 1,563,512 bushels. These figures are of local marketings to elevators. There was also about a million bushels delivered direct to Winnipeg by truck. There were also marketed 8,352 cattle, 4,186 calves, and 332,761 hogs, all in the year 1946.
I wish at this time to express my sincere thanks to the government and to the Minister
The Address-Mr. Sinnott

of Trade and Commerce, (Mr. Howe) for bringing down a bill to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act, as I advocated on page 293 of Hansard of December 15, and extending the act to cover oats and barley.
I have listened attentively, Mr. Speaker, from time to time to the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario (Mr. Maedonnell) who I always thought was very conscientious in his thinking. 1 am sorry he is not in the house at the moment for I never like to tackle a man when he is not here. But his statement in Hansard of February 18 and 19 in which he advocated higher interest rates, does not seem to be the general consensus of opinion. I always thought that the hon. gentleman, in his pleading for the poor man was conscientious in his views, but it is easy to see just whom he represents in advocating higher rates of interest.
Does the hon. gentleman say that the policy of the industrial bank was wrong?
Does he say that the loans to corporations and individuals amounting to $13,000,000 was wrong at low rates of interest?
Does he think that the moneys lent to the provincial governments, cities, towns, and school districts, amounting to $78,000,000 was wrong at low interest rates?
Would he say that the $104-9 million lent by the chartered banks for stocks and debentures was not high enough? Would the hon. gentleman say that -the current commercial loans of $1,921 million are not drawing enough interest? Would he say that the loans made to thousands of returned veterans to establish their homes or start in business was wrong?
Would he say that the $31,500,000 lent to farmers under the Farm Improvement Loans Act was wrong because it was issued at a low rate of interest?
It is wrong, in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, for anyone to advocate high rates of interest when be will not take the risk and responsibility of investing his money himself. One never forgets the days of 1930-35-I do not- when interest rates were high and commodity prices were low. People who had borrowed money at high rates of interest were expected to pay their full pound of flesh regardless of whether the commodities they were producing were sufficiently priced or not, and this led many to bankruptcies and foreclosures.
I claim, Mr. Speaker, that high interest is the cancer of civilization, and until a remedy is found to take its place the strong and the wealthy are always bound to swallow the weak.
I maintain that the policy of the government has been sound in regard to giving to

the several thousands of veterans who have returned an opportunity to establish themselves. If any other policy had been followed, it certainly would not have been to the benefit of the men and women who served in the armed forces and risked life and limb in order to save democracy.


Mr. McMASTER:: I should like to ask the
last speaker a question.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Too late.


William Alexander McMaster: Who made that statement?


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Golding):: Order. Unless the hon. member who had the floor consents to answer the question the hon. member cannot ask it.


An hon. MEMBER:: Write to him.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: He might not understand it.


William Alexander McMaster: I should like to know if the last speaker knows to whom the industrial bank makes its loans and what interest it charges.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Louder.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Speaker, I shall give the hon. member for Springfield (Mr. Sinnott) an opportunity to answer the question if he wishes to or can do so. The hon. member did a lot of boasting about his riding. I wish to say here and now that it is not necessary for me to boast about the riding that I have the honour and privilege to represent, because the thousands and thpusands of United States tourists who visit the Peterborough riding and: district each year do the boasting for Peterborough. They have been coming back year after year for over sixty years.


An hon. MEMBER:: You must have a good administration.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: We have an excellent
administration in Peterborough; the hon. member is absolutely right, and I am glad he agrees with me.
I agree with the hon. member for Springfield in one thing. When he started his speech on Thursday night, I believe it was, he spoke about a Trans-Canada highway and said he believed that one should be built. That subject has been brought up by other hon. members. Every hon. member should press upon this government the necessity of making plans at once for a Trans-Canada highway from Halifax to Vancouver. This country is losing millions of dollars each year owing to the fact that we have not a

The Address-Mr. Fraser
Trans-Canada highway. If a person wishes to drive from Halifax to Vancouver on hard surfaced, all-weather highways he must travel part of the way through the United States.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: We cannot get enough money to come down here, either.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The hon. member is perfectly right.


An hon. MEMBER:: For once.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: He is right a number of times, but when it comes to a vote, instead of being independent, he votes with the Liberal party.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Especially if the government is in danger.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is right.


An hon. MEMBER:: He has to choose.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: A trans-Canada highway is a necessity; it is a "has to be", and the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen), under whose department it would come, in co-operation with the different provinces, should immediately get plans prepared for a highway from coast to coast. Let us have a highway of which we shall be proud.


Mr. HARTT:: Will they co-operate?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes, all the provinces will co-operate. The provinces want a fair deal, and the provinces of Quebec and Ontario demand a fair deal. Eventually they will get it.


Maurice Hartt: Give it to us in writing.


James Arthur Ross: Who are you?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is the trouble. The Prime Minister will not give them anything in writing.


Mr. GRANT:: Why didn't the Tories build one when they were in?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: A highway such as I have suggested should have picnic tables and parking camps spaced every twenty-five or fifty miles along it for the tourists. That is one thing we lack in this country.


Maurice Hartt: Free coffee.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In Ontario we are getting these things very fast, but we do not have them in other parts of Canada. The United States tourists who come over here miss the picnic tables and parking places along the highways and always mention that when they talk to you about their trips to Canada. Along the highway we should have also proper eating places and hotels. They should be under the supervision of a commission or 5849-103J
board. In Ontario all the tourist hotels, resorts, cabins and so on are inspected each year, and sometimes many times a year. If they do not live up to specifications they must close; they are ordered closed by the health authorities.
I should like to say a word about veterans who are buying and have bought houses under the government plan. This is very important, Mr. Speaker. They are now asking that they be given some kind of protection in case they take sick or there is sickness in the family, or that work does not continue or that wages go down, or that we might get a "bust", as the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario (Mr. Macdonnell) mentioned the other day. We can never tell how times will be, and these veterans want to be protected. I shall read a little excerpt from the Peterborough Examiner of February 16, regarding this question. Perhaps it lays it out a little clearer than I can do it. It reads as follows:
Want Protection
That some form of protection be given to veterans, buying or building under today's high cost that any reasonable equity they may have will not be taken from them unjustly. In the case of sickness, lower wages or work stoppage they should have their equity in the home applied as rent for a period of time equal to half their equity and not lose possession of all they have tried so hard to achieve.
The report showed that the total number of applications for homes, by returned veterans in the Canadian Legion was 585 (that is in Peterborough), and of this number 124 wished to buy and 461 to rent. The average value placed on a home by those who wished to buy was $4,000. while the average rent that the veteran felt was fair was between $30' and $35 per month.
I might say that in Peterborough at the present time plans are under way for the building of 200 houses under the Central Housing and Mortgage Corporation. Hon. members can rest assured, Mr. Speaker, that * these houses will be well built. They will not be shot up as the houses were in the Sarnia district, houses that were unfit for man or beast, let alone a veteran. These veterans protected us during the war years. It is up to us to protect their interests now. I do hope that the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply and the Minister of Veterans Affairs will consider the veterans' plea that their interests be looked after and that they be protected.
I am sorry that the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) is not in his seat because I have something to say about one of his departments. When I spoke on the budget address last year I called the national film board a white elephant. It was only a few days after that I received many let-
The Address-Mr. Fraser

ters condemning me for saying a word against the film board. I had members of the film board or of their staff, employees, come to me and ask me to keep my mouth shut about the film board unless I had something good to say. One of their employees who travels around the country, who is paid over $2,000 a year and who gets travelling expenses of nearly $3,000 a year criticized me. He sat in on one of the local film boards, and that local outfit wrote me a letter giving me Sam Hill because I had spoken against the film board. The secretary of my own home film board in Peterborough wrote me a letter. I believe it originated with a man, who was employed by the film board, and it condemned me for what I had said. For every letter of this kind I have received twenty letters condemning the board. At that time I said that the film board was doing some good in an educational way and perhaps in advertising Canada, but that it was extravagant, that the books of the board should be examined, that they should have a thorough investigation from top to bottom that all non-essentials should be thrown out and the other part jacked up.
We are starting a new session now and I feel it is right for me at this time to say that I was entirely wrong when I called the film board a white elephant. I did not know last year the facts I know now. I did not know that this film board started off in 1939 with a modest $80,000 and that it has now grown and is eating up almost $3,000,000 a year. Last year I should have called it, not a white elephant but a herd of white elephants, because that is what it is, and the the sooner that outfit is cleaned up and checked on the better it will be for the whole country.
The Minister of National Revenue is supposed) to be guiding the national film board, and when I call the national film board a herd of white elephants I can picture him sitting on the lead white elephant's head like a mahout, with one of those sticks with a prong on it but not using it, or perhaps using it from the wrong direction. The sooner direction is given the film board the better off we shall be.
Everyone in Canada, Mr. Speaker, I do not care who he is, is saying today, "We want lower taxes; we must have lower taxes in view of the high cost of living". But we cannot have lower taxes when extravagances are going on in the departments of government. I am bringing up this matter now before the budget comes down so that the ministers of the crown will have an oppor-

tunity to check this outfit and clean out some of the unnecessary stuff. I will come to some of it in a few minutes.
In 1947, $1,442,656.95 was paid to the national film board employees in salaries, according to this return. We have here the annual report of the national film board1, financial summary, and what do we find in this summary? There are only two spots in it where salaries are mentioned. In one place it says, salaries, $319,426 and some odd cents, and under production of films there is another spot where it says, technical department, salaries, $62,135. There are other things besides salaries that are eating up all this money, and this annual report put out in book form must have been brought out by a very clever bookkeeper or accountant because it does not give the picture as it is.


An hon. MEMBER:: Clever.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is. It is very cleverly done. We have, besides this figure of $1,442,656 in salaries, $57,825.06 paid in salaries to employees of the film board employed outside Canada. Most of this money is paid in United States funds. The Minister of Finance brings in a bill to save United States funds while one department of government is handing out those funds like water.
That is only one part of it, that $57,825 paid out in salaries outside Canada. That gives us a total of $1,500,481 paid out in salaries over a million and1 a half. But on the financial sheet which they print and send' out here, there and the next place, they show only $381,561. In the grand total of expenditures in this financial report they show that they spent last year $2,290,148, and when you take from that salaries alone amounting to a million and a half you have left $789,720 for production of films and so on, which shows that the salaries are eating up a great part of that money.
The film board also had a long mailing list of publications such as this piece of-I was going to say tripe, but I do not think that is parliamentary, so I will not say that. I always like to be parliamentary. I will read a part of one little sheet that the film board sent out. They must have a printing bureau or a staff just to do this work. This is in regard to the making of a film on weekly newspapers:
From the national film board Ottawa Cat, dead fish heckle director.
This is the kind of stuff they send out, and we, the foolish taxpayers, pay for it.
Two other characters, innocently but definitely in the nuisance class, were fish

dead

The Address-Mr. Fraser
fish.! Because of the time of year and various other circumstances, the waters in the Vernon area refused to produce fish of the type required in the script, so the NFB people had to import them, frozen, from Vancouver. The shot was set up, with the fisherman just back from a trip ready to display his prizes to everybody and to tell the editor about it. Then, when shooting was ready, the fish were thawed out, the man held them up, the camera got the signal to "shoot." Then the sun went under a cloud!
They froze the fish again and stored them away. Two days later the sun came out again; they thawed out the fish, set everything up again and got ready to shoot. Then the sun went under again! A third time the fish -were frozen. By the time the sun decided to cooperate, the piscatorial characters^ were in pretty bad shape, practically falling apart and producing an aroma that fell like waves of nausea over their human fellow actors.
One member says that the whole thing smells, and he is absolutely right. The national film board sent out, thousands of miles, actors and cameramen and others to the Pacific coast to take pictures when they should have known, if they had consulted some of the government officials out there, that it was not the proper time to take these pictures. The situation here is similar to that which we witnessed when the national film board sent actors and film men to the university of Toronto to take pictures of the university men and girls and boys around the campus. When they arrived there, what did they discover? They discovered that examinations were on and that no one was out on the campus. So they had to take all these extras and film men and women out of their hotels, put them into coaches, parlour cars and sleepers and send them back to Ottawa at the taxpayers' expense. I say that there should be an examination of this outfit. I do not think the taxpayers should pay for this kind of stuff.
The average taxpayer does not know that here in Ottawa the national film board has some 132 telephones. In their financial summary the national film board do not show those telephones. In fact they do not pay for them. Those telephones are not charged up to the national film board; the Department of Public Works pays for them. That cost should be added on. If that were a company doing a legitimate business, it would be in their statement; but it is not here. Why should the Minister of Public Works be charged with that? The same thing happens with other departments. The Minister of Labour laughs, but he knows I am absolutely right.


Mr. MITCHELL:: The hon. member is taking too much for granted.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In 1947 the cost of all these telephones was $6,760 and some cents. Long distance calls were also made on those telephones to the extent of $7,665.65, according to a return I have here. On top of this, over $5,000 was paid for telephones and long distance calls outside of Ottawa. The average taxpayer does not know that. In certain cities throughout Canada in private homes, there are telephones which are listed in the-telephone book as national film board telephones. Is that right? Should you, or I, even if we were working for the national film board, have in our home a telephone which we do not pay for but which is listed as a national film board telephone which they pay for? I do not think it is right. The film board do not include their salary list in their report or in any other report I have seen. As to financial officers of the outfit, there is a chief treasury officer, chief accountant, assistant auditors, a salary officer-that is the man who pays salaries of these film board employees; 760 I think it is- travel officers, revenue officers and assistants. These are not charged to the national film board but to the department of the Minister of Finance. Last year the travel expenses for this outfit were $242,814.14. Those are travel expenses in Canada. On top of that we have travel expenses outside of Canada- these people get around-of $20,464.10. In order to get these figures I had reams and reams of stuff run through the adding machine, and the figures are the closest we can get. These travelling expenses are not mentioned in the financial report, but on travelling expenses we find under administration and general expenses only $7,500. I do not see any other place where travelling expenses are covered. There is over $262,200 in travelling expenses and only $7,500 shown. The rest is covered up in films they produced. As I said, they must have had a clever accountant.
Another thing that the average taxpayer does not know-in fact perhaps not many members of the House of Commons know it -is that the national film board here in Ottawa occupy space in ten rented buildings. The rent of those buildings is paid by the department of the Minister of Public Works. On top of that, the film board are in two buildings which are owned by the government. These offices cost the Minister of Public Works and his department over $100,000 a year. That includes maintenance of janitor service but it does not include the office work which the Department of Public Works have
The Address-Mr. Fraser

to put into this. Besides this, we have the cost of offices maintained by the national film board outside of Canada, which amounts to $138,959. Most of this cost must be paid in United States dollars which the Minister of Finance, through his Bill No. 3, is telling us that it is the policy of the government to save. Yet they are spending that amount. I think it is about time that the government practised what they preach, or tried to.
A little while ago, Mr. Speaker, I gave you the figure of $789,720 as being all that was left of the total expenditures shown in this financial summary after paying salaries and what not. But when you deduct travelling expenses in Canada of $242,814 and $20,464 outsiide of Canada, plus the cost of furnishing offices outside of Canada of $138,959, this leaves only $387,493 for what might be called the production of films. On top of that you would have to take out the cost of the telephones and you would have to take out $100,000 for offices, which would leave less than $287,000. The people do not get value for their money; and the sooner this situation is rectified the better films we will have.
As I said last year, the national film board are doing good work in some fields, but they are certainly running riot in others. Some of their educational films are good and some are not. Some of the films they have put out for various departments are good and some are not. They make pictures for rural schools, for educational purposes. But what they have here in their financial summary was an eye-opener. I may tell you that I was dumfounded when I saw their figures: films for rural audiences, $26,664, out of over a $2,200,000 expenditure-or more than that; because in that figure is not included all these extras which the Department of Public Works pay for. The film board makes a great play about films produced for school audiences, and they say that the films are produced for the use of school audiences. The amount there is $25,245, and this makes only about $50,000 in films for education. In those films is included salaries, travelling expenses and everything else. So one can imagine what the poor public has got. They are stuck, as usual.
I have mentioned that in some instances the film board is doing unessential work. According to this financial statement there is in the national film board a branch in which stills are made. The board will send out one, two or more men to your town or city, Mr. Speaker, or to mine. Those men will take pictures of some special event. It takes them a day by train to reach their destination- and I believe they go by pullman. It takes

them a day to get back, and they will stay about four days in your riding, if possible. While there they will take pictures of some special event. But those are not motion pictures; they are just ordinary stills, camera pictures. The commercial photographers throughout Canada have learned their trade the hard way; they have worked at it from their childhood. They have made it their profession. They have studied it and they have tried to make better pictures. Then the government comes along and says, "We are stepping into your field. You are not to take pictures of this special event; we do it". The government is getting more socialized and more like the C.C.F. party every day.


Joseph William Burton: Oh, don't say that!


Gordon Knapman Fraser: This is socialization of the worst kind.


Joseph William Burton: We have the best kind.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The best would be pretty bad. The people who go into the ridings sell these photographs, size 8 x 10, for thirty-five cents. The paper, the developing, the flashlight bulbs and the use of other necessary materials are worth at least that much, to say nothing of travelling and hotel expenses. And those men staying in hotels for four days would spend at least $20 a day each in that time. On top of that they have their salaries and travelling expenses. Even if they sold a hundred of these pictures at thirty-five cents each it would not pay for the time they spend in the villages, towns and cities. But the money aspect of it is not as important as the fact that in doing this work they are robbing the commercial photographer of his right to make pictures. Surely that is unfair. It is the worst kind of unfairness so far as the photographers of Canada are concerned.
I have no brief for the photographers and have received no instructions from them. But they are all honest men and women. They are paying their taxes, including income taxes, in their respective municipalities. They are paying wages to their employees. They support their churches and belong to service clubs, which involves the payment of certain sums of money. On top of all this they should not be subjected to competition from the government of the kind I have described. The film board was never set up for that purpose. The sooner the Minister of National Revenue or some other cabinet minister steps in and says: Out you go; wait until we clean house, the better it will be for this country. It as the worst kind of competition these people could have.

The Address-Mr. Fraser
I hold in my hand a return made last year with respect to the film board which shows that in that year they made 170,000 stills. Of that number 79,282 were of the size 8 x 10, and were sold at thirty-five cents each. If anyone in Canada will tell me that the making and sale by the government of 79,282 stills out of a total of 170,000 does not mean unfair competition, I say that he should have his head examined.
We are told that passport pictures were made by the film board. These might have been for government officials, and if so I would have no great objection, although in the past commercial photographers have done the job satisfactorily. Why not let them do it now? It would be done a good deal cheaper than it is done by these film board people.
The film board turn out what they call official portraits. I find that 166 of them have been made. I hope that the only member of the ministry who now happens to be in the house has not had his portrait taken by the board, because they charge only $5 each. A reasonably satisfactory portrait by a commercial photographer would cost a good deal more than that. This is just one further instance of robbing the private photographer. We find that these stills cost $93,270, and we will recall that there was only about $200,000 left of the total budget. If we take the $93,270 away we can imagine what is left for the development of motion pictures for educational purposes for the young, the old, and those who think they are young. I like good motion pictures.
If the national film board has nothing to hide it should be prepared to submit to a full investigation, to have its accounts and its activities checked, to have a check made of its usefulness and of its business methods, and to have inefficient employees weeded out.
In the return I received last year the qualifications required were set out. All kinds of qualifications under the sun were given, ranging from salesmen down to a practical chiropractor.


An hon. MEMBER:: That is the last word.


Douglas King Hazen: How many of them are communists?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: A little over a year ago I placed a question on the order paper on that point. The answer I received was that they did not know, or that they had not checked whether they were communists or not. In my question I referred to one particular individual, and the result was that a week after my question appeared on the order paper that man, who was a known communist, was fired from the film board. They used common sense for once.
From what I can learn here and in the United States, films made by the national film board at the present time could be made more cheaply by a commercial outfit. It would not be necessary to spend millions to make films worth only a few thousand dollars.
When the debate on the budget is before the house I shall have something more to say about these white elephants. I believe I mentioned before that it does some things in a satisfactory manner, but I still say there should be a housecleaning; and a good scrubbing brush used on the whole outfit would do a lot of good.
Before I take my seat there is just one thing more I should like to say. In later years, especially since 1940, the people of Canada and the United States have been thinking more and more of hospitalization. This is because our veterans were looked after in good hospitals-some not so good-while they were overseas and in Canada and because there has been more education along this line. Not a great deal is being put out by the national health departments both here and in the United States, but rather by women's organizations and service clubs. The people of Canada have become conscious of the fact that they should go to hospitals to be checked up when there is anything wrong. I am told that there is an increased demand for hospital beds. I understand the demand today is fifty per cent greater than it was in 1940. The average citizen, I do not care whether he is rich man, poor man, beggar man or thief, has one great fear, that he might be taken ill and have to go to a hospital and with the present shortage of hospital rooms not be able to get in.
I think the dominion government should clean up the national film board. They would save at least a million dollars, and perhaps two million dollars. They could use that money to make grants to hospitals being built throughout the country on the basis of the beds provided.


William Henry Golding: I must remind the hon. member that his time has expired.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have just one thing more to say. At the present time we have very few modern streamlined hospitals in Canada, although some are being built. Many of our hospitals are antiquated, they belong to the horse and buggy days. The Drew government in Ontario is making a grant of $1,000 per room to any non profit hospital that is being built.


An hon. MEMBER:: How much have they given?
The Address-Mr. Bowerman


Gordon Knapman Fraser: For a great many rooms.


William Henry Golding: I would again remind the hon. member that his time has expired.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I do hope that the minister of national health will see that the Minister of National Revenue hands over some money from the film board to be applied for additional hospitalization throughout Canada.


Mr. E. L. BOWERMAN (Prince Albert):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to avail myself of the opportunity afforded by this debate to give expression to what I know is the desire of by far the great majority of my constituents. I know from personal contact and from correspondence which I have received that if they were able to speak personally to this house, particularly to the government, they would do so in the sense of the amendment moved by the leader of the C.C.F. group (Mr. Cold-well). They would no doubt do it in this way:
We the people regret that Your Excellency's advisers have failed to use the powers provided by parliament to control prices, and by their actions have caused alarming increases in the cost of living -and a dangerous lowering of the living standards of the Canadian people.
That Mr. Speaker, is why I am speaking to the amendment moved by my leader, and also because every housewives' league, every women's auxiliary, every labour union, every farm forum, every wheat pool committee and every individual who has written to me from the Prince Albert riding, along with many others from elsewhere, has one and all demanded the reimposition of price controls, the resumption of subsidies and the immediate reapplication of the excess profits tax.
One letter which is typical of the many received contained a copy of a letter addressed to the Prime Minister by the Prince Albert local of the Canadian brotherhood of railway trainmen. The writer states that he was instructed by the brotherhood of his local to inform the Prime Minister that his group were unanimous in their end'orsation of the brief submitted to him by the Canadian congress of labour regarding the reimposition of price controls. They state further that in giving consideration to this brief they would like to remind him that during the war they were repeatedly informed by his government that there would be no inflation this time. They particularly wanted to call the Prime Minister's attention to the many Canadian National Railways pensioners who have given the government railways fifteen to twenty-five years of faithful service and who are now

faced with the absolutely impossible task of trying to exist on $25 per month. They close with these words:
Trusting you will consider the wish of the majority of the people and make every effort to improve their standard of living . . .
Before now they, will have learned once again that their trust has been misplaced. They, along with Canadians everywhere, will have learned that instead of recognizing and implementing the wishes of the majority, the Prime Minister's government has told this house and the country that so far as the government of the day is concerned sooner or later the type of subsidies that have been paid in the past will be removed, that the remaining subsidies that are now paid on different things will in the course of time be removed and that the policy of the government is the removal of price controlling subsidies. The truth as I see it is that this government, because of pressure brought to bear by self-styled free enterprisers, have turned their back on the system of planned price controlling subsidies which they themselves admitted saved us from ourselves and all others in the most critical period of our nation's history.
They have turned away from the principle of each for all and all for each, the principle of planned economic controls, which gave, in a measure at least, to the humblest citizen the right to share in the needs and necessities of life in a period of great crisis. They have turned from the petition of the majority to the cry of materialistic capitalism.
Capitalism is materialistic. It places a premium on greed1, competition, inequality and privilege. It denies the religious concept of the equality of man before God. It rejects the Christian principles of brotherhood and co-operation. It makes a virtue of the amassing of wealth and privilege at other people's expense. Capitalism is un-Christian in its ethics and inhuman in its practice. On the other hand, a democratically planned and democratically controlled society would guarantee and safeguard full economic, religious and political liberty for all.
A co-operative commonwealth federation, a Christian democratic socialist state, if you please, would assure to every citizen that there would be no economic, political or social discrimination because of race, creed, religion, colour or ethnic or national origin. A conservative commonwealth would rebuild society along co-operative principles, appealing not as capitalism does to the greed in men but rather to their desire to work together for the common good. It would rebuild society, national and international, upon the principle that all

The Address-Mr. Bowerman
men are brothers the world over and that all have an equal right to share in the good things that a kind and beneficent nature has created for the use of all men. Going still deeper to the root of the matter this is also why leading church bodies have considered it their duty to condemn the evils of capitalism and favour the reorganization of society upon principles similar to those of a co-operative commonwealth federation.
Through you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to recall to the mind and heart of those members of this house whose religious convictions are deeply rooted in the Catholic faith a papal encyclical of 1931 wherein Pope PiusXI states:
You assuredly know and lament the ultimate consequence of this individualistic spirit in economic affairs. Free competition is dead; economic dictatorship has taken its place. Unbridled ambition for domination has succeeded the desire for gain. The whole economic life has become hard, cruel and relentless in a ghastly measure. It is rightly contended that certain forms of property must be reserved to the state since they carry with them an opportunity for domination too great to be left to private individuals without injury to the community at large.
A pronouncement of the Roman Catholic hierarchy of my own, province states:
It is abundantly clear why the church condemns and abhors the abuses of the materialistic capitalism of our industrial age, with its consequent unemployment for the masses and huge fortunes for the few. These evils are so well known that we are saved the trouble of listing them here. Suffice it to say that materialistic capitalism is so un-Christian in its philosophy and evil consequence that it must give way to a reconstructed social order based on Christian principles.


Ernest Bertrand: Who wrote that, please?


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: This comes from the
hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church in the province of Saskatchewan.


Ernest Bertrand: What is his name?


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: Continuing, I wish to place before this house another pronouncement which was made at a World-wide conference of Anglican bishops at Lambeth, England, in 1930. It reads in part as follows:
An outstanding and pressing duty of the church is to convince its members of the necessity of nothing less than a fundamental change in our economic life. This change can only be effected by accepting as a basis of individual relationships the principle of co-operation in service for the common good, in place of unrestricted competition for profits and sectional advantages.
Furthermore the late Archbishop of York, William Temple, declared:
The vast system of beliefs, practices and policies which may roughly be called western civilization . . . was admirably adapted to the production of wealth and power. But its motives were non-Christian, self-interest, competition, the struggle of rival forces. If it is to be a blessing, not a blight, its motives must be transformed.
Still further, in 1939, the report of the committee on social service of the United Church of Canada stated:
We are driven to the conclusion that the only thing that will solve our present day social and economic problems will be the absolute Christian socialization of the means of production and distribution of all the necessities of life.
The twenty-first annual report of the board of evangelism and social service of the United Church of Canada for 1946 said:
This board recommends the control by the federal government of any industry in Canada whose degree of concentration or monopoly is such that it can enter or has entered into cartel agreements, believing that the holding of such concentrated economic power in private hands is contrary to the interests of the Canadian people.
Your Honour, what an indictment-the world's great spiritual leaders both at home and abroad condemning in no uncertain terms uncontrolled materialistic capitalism, an "ism'' that all down through its history has brought war and rumours of war, famine and pestilence to those peoples who adhere to its system of uncontrolled rent, interest and profit. Is it any wonder, sir, that these great church bodies to whom vast multitudes look for guidance in spiritual and temporal affairs, seeing and knowing the distress that so-called free enterprise has wrought, have cried out: we condemn and abhor the abuses of capitalism? Free enterprise is dead. Dictatorship has taken its place. Our duty before God and man is to convince all people everywhere of the necessity of nothing less than a fundamental change in our economic life. We are driven to this conclusion-the only thing that will solve our present social and economic problems is absolute Christian socialization of the means of production and distribution of all the necessities of life.


Gordon Graydon: Does that include the farmers?


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: That would include everybody.


Gordon Graydon: It is interesting to hear that.
The Address-Mr. Bowerman


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: 
Mr. RINFRET:: Will the hon. member for Prince Albert permit a question?


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: Yes.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I believe he cited a papal encyclical a moment ago. Would he be kind enough to give me the title and the date of the encyclical?


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: This encyclical, Mr. Speaker, was issued in 1931 by Pope Pius XI. I presume with the intelligence the hon. member has he will be able to find that particular encyclical.


Joseph William Burton: I should think he had read
it by this time.


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: I think he has.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Quite a number were
issued in 1931. May I have the title of it?


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: You may look it up; I have not the title of it here.


Joseph William Burton: I should hope you had read it by this time.


Mr. J. M. DECHENE (Athabaska):: Mr. Speaker, as I rise to ask you, sir, for the privilege of the. floor in this august assembly I am reminded of a piece of advice that I heard some years ago given to a lot of our young men in what was at that time and
The Address-Mr. Dechene

still is our wealthiest and most populous city in Canada, Montreal. I believe it was in 1928 that I had the opportunity of visiting that city for the first time in many years. I was invited by a friend to attend a church gathering to hear one of the' great pulpit orators who at that time was addressing the young men of that parish during the lenten season, the season we are in now. He was speaking to thousands of young men, whom we called the golden youth of those days, the sons of families who were then mostly millionaires on paper, during the great stock boom from 1926 to 1929. It was only a few years after that that many of these same millionaires were gone, only a memory.
I heard this great orator accuse these young men of killing time. They thought their future was assured. They thought they did not have to press their studies with the same vigour as the sons of poorer men. This orator said to them, "Now young men, remember that the time that you kill will not die without taking its revenge". I commend this thought to some hon. members who at times appear to some of us to be killing a lot of time. I had this thought in mind when I was debating whether I should take the floor this afternoon, but I decided that I had a duty to perform, one, sir, that I felt might be performed either on the orders of the day or prior to the orders of the day, on a question of privilege, because I consider that the ability, the character and the orderliness of the members sitting in this chamber were being attacked and that it was the duty of someone to stand up and defend our institutions at this time when the curtain is again descending upon a country which until a few hours ago was free, when every institution that we love is facing the greatest trial ever seen. I felt that when those institutions in which we believe, and which all of us have been sent here to serve, are about to perish unless we are very careful, some comment should be made on the attitude of some of our public men and some of the press who go about this country stating and publishing that the character and the merit of the House of Commons of Canada, and its ability, are not to be compared with these qualities as displayed in the past.
When the assertion is made that the same ability does not exist in this parliament as was evidenced in the past, I think it is the duty of someone better qualified than a humble backbencher from the far north of Alberta to stand up and refute the statements of one man and all those who like him are doing their best, unthinkingly but effectively nevertheless, to lend support to those elements

in our country who are at this moment active in an effort to destroy our democratic institutions.
If you listen to the noise as I do in my humble way, you can hear the rats gnawing at the foundations of the edifice that we have erected in this country. I would have kept silent if the statement made by one man who is very much in the public eye, the chief editor of one of our great daily newspapers, had not since been reprinted in two other newspapers, one circulated in Ontario and one in western Canada. I thought, however, that for the honour of this house I had better stand up here and point out the danger of this kind of propaganda. The article to which I have reference, as reported from Toronto, January 13, states that Mr. Grattan O'Leary, associate editor of the Ottawa Journal made this statement:
One of the things that impresses me over the years is the steady decline in the quality of parliament, and with it a decline in its authority.
When business and professional men refuse to join a political party or go to a nominating convention, then it is inevitable that you get a weak parliament. When you get a weak parliament, you get a weak executive, and when you get a weak executive you get a strong bureaucracy. That is the most disturbing trend at the present time.
I never read speeches in this house, Mr. Speaker, because I think my speech sounds better when I do not read it, but I should like to read what I said over the radio in reply to this statement by this gentleman. I spoke over the radio, addressing an audience in the city of Edmonton, and I believe it is of vital importance, if we do not wish to be behind the curtain ourselves in a few months- and do not feel any too safe about it-that someone should reply to a statement such as this.
I do not know about now, but a few weeks ago meetings of communists, fellow travellers and believers in the communistic policy of Russia, some of them members of the civil service, were being held in the city of Ottawa, preparing to sabotage the service in case a call should come from overseas if the occasion arose. That is not far-fetched. You will therefore not be surprised at what I said on March 17, 1947, when I read an article of the same kind, making the same kind of pronouncement on the part of public men in this country, who were talking about how poor we in this parliament were.
I have been in public life for many years. I was a member of the legislature of Alberta, which at one time was led by a man who was considered one of the most brilliant that ever

The Address-Mr. Dechene
came from western Canada, except perhaps the right hon. the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). I have had the honour of a seat in this house, Mr. Speaker, associating with members who have listened to me courteously, and therefore I think I have fair enough judgment in matters of this kind. I have belonged to town councils, village councils, and school boards, and I am prepared to say that I am proud to be associated with the members of this house, of all parties.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We are proud of you.


Joseph Miville Dechene: I am proud to be here to serve my country in my own humble way. This is what I had to say on the occasion to which I have referred:
I have always been surprised at the attitude of a lot of our people in Canada and of an important pTess in their attempt to belittle our parliamentary institutions and the ability of the men who represent the nation at this time. Some of these criticisms coming from, for instance, the Conservative press, are difficult to understand as they lend comfort and support to a class of the imople who by their insidious teachings and agitation are doing their utmost to bring about the destruction of these very institutions on which depend the security and prosperity of Canada. These subversive elements take advantage of these unwise statements. In the opinion of men and women V'ho have been acquainted with members of parliament for many decades, this one is undoubtedly one of the ablest ever elected by the Canadian people. It is untrue and unfair to state differently. No less an authority than the present clerk of the House of Commons, whose experience extends1 over so many decades and whose knowledge of parliamentary institutions and of the men who have represented them is unequalled, is on record as supporting the declaration just made. The character of the men and women charged with the onerous duties of representation in this difficult period of after-war adjustment, is undoubtedly of the best and should stand high in the esteem and regard of the Canadian people.
I believe that the time has come for some member of parliament at least to raise his voice in protest against this propaganda which, it will be admitted by all real Canadians, is of a nature to do a great deal of harm, particularly when the young men and women are just emerging from the terrific experience of the bloodiest and costliest war that has ever afflicted humanity. I can only express the hope that the present parliament will be allowed to live its allotted time and that, whenever an election is held, the calibre of the men and women elected to office will be equal to that of those in the present one. I repeat with emphasis that in that lies the salvation of the parliamentary institutions that we have built up with such care and with great- sacrifices and the ceaseless efforts of
many great men; and I say to the young men and women who soon must pick up the burden that the enfeebled shoulders of the old, like myself, will no longer have the strength to carry, that they need have no doubt as to the value of parliament to the people of this country and of the opportunity that it provides for these young people for the continued advancement and betterment of our great Canadian nation.
In my estimation this is vital and I voice the sincere hope that writers and speakers will keep in mind the danger to the oncoming generation of lending ear to those who would convince them that there -are better systems of government evolving elsewhere in this world. Do we ever stop to think that this nefarious idea is being spread throughout the world by some nations with a form of government and an ideology born only yesterday in strife and in bloodshed; that its application to the government of men is of very short duration and is taught and broadcast by men whose experience in that line of endeavour amounts to only a few years and from a country which has a very limited conception and knowledge of what is involved in the glorious words liberty and freedom? How can anyone attempt to teach our young Canadians that the work and endeavours of generations of free men in Britain, the United States and Canada is of no account as compared to this alleged superior knowledge of men who only yesterday were living in a state of ignorance and slavery? As I have said, Mr. Speaker, I am one of those who must pass the burden from my enfeebled shoulders to those of the young men and young women of this country. Oh, that my voice were eloquent and loud enough to reach all of them and to teach them the beauty of the democracy we have evolved in Canada, copied from that of the mother country; to tell them that it is wrong to say that this parliament is not equal to those that have preceded it. There might have been a greater star here and there, but I doubt it.
Before I move the adjournment of the debate-because I have something else to say-I want to repeat that I personally am convinced-and this is borne out by the opinions of those who have seen other houses in session in Britain and elsewhere; one of my sons some years ago attended the sittings of the congress of the United States and reported to me that we in this parliament do not have to bend the knee or take off our hat to any other organization of its kind in the world.
The Address-Mr. Dechene

I have a few more minutes, Mr. Speaker, and since my remarks tomorrow will be confined to what I wish to bring to the attention of parliament and to the country with regard to the tremendous possibilities of Alberta and what I think we ought to do in order to develop those resources which [DOT]will make us independent almost of any other [DOT]country I wish to remind the house of something I have had in the back of my mind for over forty-two years. On September 1, 1905, Sir Wilfrid Laurier in Edmonton, on the old fair grounds down the hill, launched Alberta-as he did Saskatchewan a few days later-on its political course as a sister province of this dominion. The setting was magnificent. I can still envision the old Hudson Bay fort which we unfortunately allowed to be demolished since then. I can still see the big house on top of the hill, a few feet from the assembly house in Edmonton. I knew that big house well. As a boy I played there many a time. It was built by Chief Rowland of the Hudson Bay Company, a great man. He was known all over the west. When he erected that three-story big log house, it was known all over the west as "the big house." It stood there when Laurier was addressing the gathering. Just below flowed the magnificent Saskatchewan river bringing water from the glaciers of the west and prosperity to the great plains which it watered. Twenty-five thousand people had come to town. There were not many motorcars in those days; I believe there were only three in Edmonton. People had come in from all over by train, by horse, some even by oxen. I shall never forget the message that this man of vision brought to Alberta, and I am asking myself how it is that our
public men, businessmen and farmers have not yet succeeded in bringing about the thing he predicted, namely, that some day the coal from the western plains and from the foothills would heat the houses of the country as far as the city of Montreal and would provide fuel for the manufacturing machinery in Ontario and Quebec; that the gas and oil-and how he knew of those things in those days may be seen by perusing the reports of the old department of the interior-would one day make Canada independent of any other nation.
Just one last word. I can still hear the echoes of this vast crowd composed' of our Ukrainian friends from the first settlements,- from Star, Shandro, and Wostok as far as Vegreville-the French Canadians from north of Edmonton and the south, Anglo-Saxons from all over the province, cheering to the echo the message of hope that the leader of Canada in 1905 had brought to newly-born Alberta.
On motion of Mr. Dechene the debate was adjourned.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Bracken: Is it the intention to proceed tomorrow with the debate on the address?


James Joseph McCann: Yes.


John Bracken: If that is finished, what
then?


James Joseph McCann: We shall go on with the measure of the Minister of Finance.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, February 26, 1948