1948-02-18

Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) stated on the floor of the house on Monday last that the chief treasury officer who performs the duties of accountant of the house had refused to pay his travelling expenses by air and also those of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Gibson). He said:
I request that Your Honour give the reason which you gave to the accountant of the House of Commons as to why the expense accounts for the hon. member for Comox-Alberni and myself were refused.
This was the first time I heard there was any trouble in connection with these expense accounts; but I took no exception to the hon. member speaking on this matter at the time because he started by saying he rose to a question of privilege. By the time he was through I saw that the main object of his statement was a complaint against a part of the house's administration which is under my control. I then said:
I call the attention of the hon. member to a very well known rule, that the Speaker should not be questioned from the floor of the house.
I nevertheless assured the hon. member that due consideration would be given his remarks.
It is a well known rule laid down in May's 14th edition, page 334, that:
Questions dealing with matters within the jurisdiction of the Speaker should be addressed to the Speaker by private notice.
Payment of members' travelling expenses has always been under the control of the commissioners of the internal economy of the house, who, for the present session, are the hon. ministers of Justice, External Affairs, Finance and Fisheries. Section 16 of the House of Commons Act provides that those hon. ministers shall act together with the Speaker, and section 18 of the act says:
All sums of money voted upon such estimates (the estimates of the house), or payable to members of the House of Commons under the Senate and House of Commons Act shall be subject to the order of the commissioners, or any three of them, of whom the Speaker shall be one.
The commissioners have often considered the members' travelling expenses but they have not yet discussed the advisability of applying section 43 (1) of the Senate and House of Commons Act to travel by air. A meeting of the commissioners was called two weeks ago and had to be postponed because ministers were too busy attending other official business. I will make it a point to submit to them the cases of the hon. members for Vancouver North and Comox-Alberni, which in my opinion deserve the most serious consideration.


Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the statement Your Honour has just made I note that the hon. member for Vancouver North in making his statement said this:
The hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Black) informs me that he regularly travels by air and his accounts are approved.
I know the hon. member does not wish to misrepresent me, but he must have misunderstood me. I did not want him to understand that I regularly travel by air and that my accounts were paid. Occasionally when the adjournment of the house was so short that all of my time in going from my home and returning would be spent in travel, I have travelled by air and presented the accounts to the accountant of the house, with vouchers, and they have been paid. But that was not done on more than two or three occasions, and it is not the regular procedure.


Mr. JAMES SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: I can certainly substantiate that. That was the effect of the communication I received from the hon. member for Yukon, which I think makes our case all the stronger in that there should be no differentiation between ridings. On this matter of privilege, as a member of parliament, I did consider that when the accounts of a member of parliament were submitted to a servant of parliament and were refused, it was quite proper to draw Your Honour's attention to that fact in the House of Commons. I can also say that as a member of parliament I think your statement is not very satisfactory.
Questions



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).
foreign EXCHANGE CONTROL-U.S. FUNDS FROM VARIOUS SOURCES
['1.\t(a) Yes. (b) Yes.\n2.\tNo.\n3.\tNot applicable. See answer to question No. 2 above.\n4.\tYes.\n5.\tPrices received for similar lines range from $1 per garment for badly worn coats up to $10 per garment for new coats.']
Mr. McMASTER:: What was the amount of American dollars acquired by the foreign exchange control board in the period beginning January 1, 1947 and ending on the last day of November, 1947 from the following sources: (a) export of merchandise; (b) export of gold; (c) tourist and travelling expenditures by visitors to Canada; (d) interest and dividends; (e) freight and shipping; (f) the United Kingdom; (g) any other country;
(h)	from other sources, specifying, if possible, the more important ones?
What were the sources of the sums acquired by the foreign exchange control board which increased their reserves from $461,000,000 on December 17, 1947, to $514,000,000 on January 31, 1948, divided under the following headings:	(a) export of merchandise to United
States; (b) export of gold; (c) tourist and travelling expenditures by visitors to Canada; (d) interest and dividends; (e) freight and shipping; (f) the United Kingdom; (g) any other country; (h) gold acquired and held;
(i)	from other sources, specifying if possible, the more important ones?


Mr. ABBOTT:: May I be permitted to answer these questions orally? I wish to point out that the information requested involves estimates of Canada's balance of payments which require a great deal of statistical work, and it is customary to make such estimates only on the basis of the calendar year. To attempt such estimates for broken periods, particularly for such a period as is referred to in the second question, would involve at least a very large amount of additional work, and the information could not be made available for a considerable period of time. A definitive estimate of Canada's balance of payments for the year 1947 will not be available until the report of the foreign exchange control board is published. 'However, I have requested that provisional or tentative estimates should be prepared, subject to correction later as all the details are available, and I trust- that it will meet the purpose which the hon. member has in mind if I table now a copy of these provisional estimates for the year 1917, which have been prepared at my request.



Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	When will the Toronto district be given a steam suburban service by both railways with commutation tickets and new equipment?
2.	Why are not steel cars available on the Canadian National Railways to replace the wooden type now in use to Oakville and Brampton?

3.	Why has the transport board not acted under its powers under the Railway Act to give the Toronto district the same type of suburban service as for years has been available on Montreal island and district by both railway systems?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:-
1.	Commutation fares are available; (a) between Toronto and Oakville and intermediate points, (b) between Toronto and Weston and intermediate points, (c) between Toronto and Port Union and intermediate points, (d) between Toronto and Downsview and intermediate points.
With the number of first-class highways in the vicinity of Toronto paralleling railway tracks and the availability of other forms of transportation, additional steam railway services are not considered necessary to serve suburban communities.
2.	Every effort is being made to distribute available passenger coaches of modern construction in the most effective way, and replacements of cars of the older type will be made as rapidly as circumstances permit.
3.	The Board of Transport Commissioners advise as follows:
No application is before the. board for an order requiring a change in the type of suburban railway service in the Toronto district, and there is no material on the board's files which would justify the board in issuing-such an order.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-COAL
Mr. HANSELL:: 1- How much coal was used by the Canadian National Railways for each of the years 1945, and 1946 and what is the estimated value of this coal?
2.	How much of this coal was imported from the United States during these years and what is the estimated value?


Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:-
1. 1945-6,310,751 net tons-cost $38,432,474; 1946-6.082,395 net tons-cost $38,744,856.
2.	1945-4,336,688 net tons-cost $29,167,064; 1946-4,138,017 net tons-cost $29,751,724.
The above-mentioned costs include mine cost, foreign freight, duty and expense of handling through chutes and are exclusive of any charges for transportation over Canadian lines.


WAR ASSETS-SHEEPSKIN-LINED COATS
Mr. STUART (Charlotte):: 1.	Did War Assets Corporation, during the period February 1, 1947 to January 31, 1948, dispose of a quantity of army sheepskin-lined coats (a) with parkas; (b) with collars?

Questions
2.	If so, were tenders called?
3.	What are the names of those from whom tenders were received, showing quantity and prices?
4.	Were similar goods disposed of through the Montreal office?
5.	If so, what price was received for similar lines?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	(a) Yes. (b) Yes.
2.	No.
3.	Not applicable. See answer to question No. 2 above.
4.	Yes.
5.	Prices received for similar lines range from $1 per garment for badly worn coats up to $10 per garment for new coats.



VETERANS BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL LOANS ACT

Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: 1.	How many applications have been made each year, by provinces, for the Veterans' Business and Professional {Loans Act?
2.	How many of these applications have been granted, by provinces, to date?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1. To December 31,	1947:	
Province	Number	AmountBritish Columbia ...	. 448	$ S65.463 81Alberta 	. 627	1,139,077 51Saskatchewan 	. 359	627,339 30Manitoba 	. 253	481.400 35Ontario 	. 1,428	2,496.536 81Quebec 	. 264	462.025 66New Brunswick 	. 88	128,470 36Nova Scotia 	. 139	206,504 04Prince Edward Island	. 51	70,778 002. Province	Number	AmountBritish Columbia 	. 377	$ 732,171 60Alberta 	. 537	980,541 27Saskatchewan 	. 269	461,281 82Manitoba 	. 174	322,278 04Ontario 	. 1,166	2,030,291 65Quebec 	227	389,747 34New Brunswick 	. 68	98,860 62Nova Scotia 	. 100	141,782 13Prince Edward Island,	. 41	54,707 00



NATIONAL HOUSING ACT-LAND DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS

Mr. TIMMINS:: How many projects with respect to land development have been commenced under the amendment to the National Housing Act of 1947, being new section 11B?


Mr. McILRAITH:: As of February 10, 1948, agreements have been executed between Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the sponsoring lending institutions for six land development projects pursuant to the provisions of section 11B of the National Housing Act. Development has commenced
on all six projects. The location, acreage involved, and number of residential lots expected from each project are as follows:
Mount Royal district, Montreal, 20 acres, 146 lots.
North York township, 122 acres, 383 lots.
Burlington, Ontario, 30 acres, 154 lots.
St. Boniface, Manitoba, 37-5 acres, 205 lots.
South Edmonton, Alberta, 12>6 acres, 75 lots.
Hastings townsita (suburban Vancouver) 9'6 acres, 96 lots.
Five other projects are at present under negotiation.



RENTAL OF BUILDINGS AT AJAX, 0NT.

Mr. CASE:: 1.	How many buildings have been rented at Ajax, Ontario?
2.	To whom were they rented?
3.	How much floor space, in each case, was rented?
4.	How much rental per foot was charged for such space?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Four buildings plus an area containing approximately 180 buildings.
2.	Two buildings to Visco Petroleum Company, Toronto; one building to Gross Machinery Company Limited, Toronto; one building to Novelty Shoe Company Limited, Toronto.
Approximately 180 buildings in an area leased to the University of Toronto.
3.	Two buildings-Visco Petroleum Company-24,000 sq. feet; one building-Gross Machinery Company-56,000 sq. feet; one building-Novelty Shoe Company-1,364 sq. feet.
The floor space occupied by the University of Toronto cannot be computed without considerable time and expense. The lease to the university covers a certain land area in which the buildings are situated and numerous changes have been made from the original layout.
4.	Visco Petroleum Company-24,000 sq. feet at 2c per sq. foot; Gross Machinery Company-56,000 sq. feet at 2c per sq. foot; Novelty Shoe Company-1,364 sq. feet at 2c per sq. foot.
All above space unheated. Charge shown above is per month.
The lease with the University of Toronto covers an overall annual charge of $50,000 without reference to floor area.



VETERANS BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL LOANS ACT

Mr. McKAY:: 1.	What is the total value of loans made under the Business and Professional Loans Act since its inception?
Questions

2. How many loans have been made under this act in each of the provinces?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1. $5,211,661.47 to December 31, 1947.
2.	Province	Number
British Columbia	 377
Alberta	 537
Saskatchewan	 269
Manitoba 7	 174
Ontario	 1,166
Quebec	 227
New Brunswick	 68
Nova Scotia	 100
Prince Edward Island	 41



VETERANS LAND ACT-SMALL HOLDINGS

Mr. McKAY:: 1.	How many veterans have been established in each province under the Veterans' Land Act on (a) farm lands; (b) small holdings?
2.	What has been the total amount of loans advanced by the dominion government to establish veterans under the Veterans' Land Act on (a) farm lands; (b) small holdings in each province of Canada?


Mr. GREGG:: Return at December 31, 1947:
1.	Net loans and grants approved
(a)
Full time
Province	farming
British Columbia	 760
Alberta (*)	 4,957
Saskatchewan	 5,084
Manitoba	2,775
Ontario	 3,336
Quebec	 979
New Brunswick	 574
Prince Edward Island	 458
Nova Scotia	 433
Total (t)	19,356
(b)
Province	Small holdings
British Columbia	 2,514
Alberta (*)	 927
Saskatchewan	 269
Manitoba	 938
Ontario	 6,374
Quebec	 1,343
New Brunswick	 711
Prince Edward Island	 158
Nova Scotia	 810
Total (t)	14,044
(*) Includes Peace River block.
(t) The above figures do not include 578 loans approved for commercial fishing under section 9; 6 grants approved for commercial 
fishing under section 35; nor 689 grants to Indian veterans under section 35A of the Veterans Land Act, 1942.
2.	Net amount of loans and grants approved:
(a) Full time (b) Small
Province	farming	holdingsBritish Columbia	.$ 3,710,566	$12,422,988Alberta (*) 	. 21,514,091	4,732,303Saskatchewan 	. 21,852,185	1,269,285Manitoba 	. 13.915,574	4,881,646Ontario 	. 17.838.887	34,824,832Quebec 	. 5,064,442	7,984,647New Brunswick 	. 2,379,292	3,263,643Prince Edward1 Island	. 2,152,684	716,467Nova Scotia 	. 1,986,271	3,346,077Total (t) 	.$90,413,992	$73,441,888
(*) Includes Peace River block.
(t) The above amounts do not include 82,166,742 approved for commercial fishing under section 9; $13,920 approved for commercial fishing under section 35; nor $1,454,704 approved for Indian veterans under section 35A of the Veterans' Land Act, 1942.
Expenditures out of approved loans and grants (a) Full time (b) Srhall Province	farming	holdingsBritish Columbia.$ 3,030,976	38	$ 9,922,503	82Alberta	
16,112,149	91	4,177,085	02Saskatchewan ...	16,660,843	92	1,167,743	36Manitoba	
12,313,741	98	4,906,789	16Ontario	
15,578,329	91	24,768,148	92Quebec	
4,095,487	94	5,982,701	97New Brunswick.	2,095,031	99	2,740,634	46
Prince Edward
Island	
1,853,104	65	592,342	26Nova Scotia ....	1,821,241	64	2,556,792	54

These figures do not include grants made to veterans on dominion and provincial lands as records are not maintained under the separate headings. The amounts expended for these purposes are as follows:
Province
British Columbia	$	41,842 80Alberta	
1,060,557	54Saskatchewan	
1,316,775	44Manitoba	
'225,776	90Ontario	
21,061	35Quebec	
33,090	52New Brunswick	
16,350	50Prince Edward Island	Nova Scotia

Questions



NAVY AND AIR FORCE-FILM BUREAUS

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	Does the Royal Canadian Navy and the Royal Canadian Air Force maintain film bureaus?
2.	If so, how many people were employed in each of these bureaus during the year 1947?
3.	How many of these people were members of the armed services?
4.	How many were civilians?
5.	What was the total cost of carrying on each of these bureaus during the year 1947?
6.	How many films were produced by each service?
7.	What were the names of these films and what were they used for?
8.	Are these film bureaus connected, or affiliated with the national film bureau?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	The navy and air force do not maintain film bureaus as separate units. Co-ordination of requirements is carried out by personnel of the training branches. Procurements and distribution are effected through the supply branches in the same manner as for other technical equipment.
2.	Navy: Two, part time; Air Force: two, full time; two, part time.
3.	Navy: one petty officer photographer part time; Air Force: one staff officer (full (time), one leading aircraftman (full time), one corporal (part time).
4.	Navy: one (part time); Air Force: one (part time).
5.	Navy: S3,900; Air Force $7,175.
6.	Navy: one now being edited; Air Force: none.
7.	The above navy film is confidential and for service instructional purposes only.
8.	No. A joint service film bureau is now being organized to cover requirements of the department.



FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL-ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS

Mr. KIDD:: 1.	How many enforcement officers are employed by the foreign exchange control board?
2.	Who are they?
3.	What date were they appointed?
4.	Where are they located?
5.	What salary does each receive?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1,	2, 3 and 4. The foreign exchange control board as such does not employ any enforcement officers. Under section 12 of the Foreign Exchange Control Act, "the Bank of Canada in its capacity as fiscal agent for the government of Canada shall, without charge ... (a) provide the board with such officers, clerks and employees ... as may be required by the board . . .". Under section 36(1) (e) the
board may "plan the organization of the board, appoint the officers, clerks and employees furnished to the board by the Bank of Canada to offices or positions under the board and authorize such officers, clerks and employees to act on behalf of the board in the conduct of its operations."
The officers so provided to the board who are engaged wholly or to a considerable extent in enforcement work for the board at the present time, the dates since which they have been engaged on this work for the foreign exchange control board, and their present locations are as follows:
Name-Date-Location
G.	Bousquet, June 1, 1947, Montreal.
W. A. Cameron, Sept. 16, 1939, Montreal.
H.	Cree, Oct. 29, 1947, Toronto.
N. Fergusson, Oct. 15, 1947, Ottawa.
J. R. B. Graham, July 18, 1940, Vancouver.
R. Lang, Sept. 22, 1939, Ottawa.
J. S. Lockie, Jan. 1, 1945, Windsor.
G. Longman, Sept. 23, 1947, Ottawa.
J. L. MacCallum, Sept. 24, 1945, Ottawa.
E.	M. MacFarlane, April 9, 1942, Toronto.
M. Popovich, Sept. 5, 1947, Windsor.
C. A. Rowe, June 2, 1947, Ottawa.
J. E. Rowe (Miss), Sept. 22, 1947, Ottawa.
R. H. Tarr, Jan. 1, 1942, Ottawa.
F.	Walsh, Oct. 30, 1947, Ottawa.
In addition, under the Foreign Exchange Control Act all customs officers and members of the R.C.M.P. are officers for the purpose of the enforcement of the act.
5.	As the officers provided to the board are employees of the Bank of Canada, their salaries are not a matter of government record.



WHITEHORSE FEDERAL BUILDING

George Black: When will the government build the federal building at Whitehorse, Yukon, for which plans and estimates were prepared two years ago?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: Sketch plans and estimates only were prepared in 1946 for use in determining the magnitude of the project. The whole question of when projects such as this one shall be proceeded with is one that depends largely on the supply of labour and materials, which, at present, are being directed primarily to veterans' housing, and, secondly, to the expansion of industry.
The priority that is given to the construction of new public buildings is very low. The present policy is to restrict new construction to an absolute minimum and to proceed only with maintenance and repairs of existing structures. At a later date, when the aforementioned
Questions

demands have been satisfied, attention will be given to the construction of new public buildings.
This is the policy that is being followed with relation to new buildings throughout the country. As the building at Whitehorse is a new project, it is felt that it should remain in the deferred class as there is no greater urgency for this particular structure than for others of a similar nature throughout the country.



R.C.A.F.-RESCUE ACTIVITIES

Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	In the last year, in how many rescue attempts employing aeroplanes, did the Royal Canadian Air Force participate?
2.	How many were rescued?
3.	Were lives lost in attempting rescue? If so, how many?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	41 (Period 11th February, 1947, to 11th February, 1948).
2.	Four persons. In addition 10 lost marine vessels (number of personnel aboard unknown) were located by R.C.A.F. aircraft.
3.	No.



NATIONAL FILM BOARD-&quot;EYES ON CANADA&quot;

Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	Has the Canada Carries On release, "Eyes on Canada" been banned in the United States of America ?
2.	If so, on what grounds?


Mr. WINTERS:: 1.	No. The Canada Carries On film "Eyes on Canada" is the January release in the series. Normally the Canada Carries On films are exhibited in Canada before being exhibited in the United States. It is expected that the usual bookings for the film will be made in the United States. No ban has been placed on this film in the United States or elsewhere.
2.	See answer to No. 1.



INTERNATIONAL BILL OF RIGHTS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Has a copy of the international bill of rights, which was approved by the commission on human rights, at its meeting in Geneva, been received by the Canadian government?
2.	Has Canada been asked for comments on this international bill of rights before it is submitted to the general assembly of the united nations ?
3.	Have such comments been given?
4.	If so, what is the nature thereof and will parliament be given an opportunity to express itself on this matter?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I presume that this question will be dropped in view of the answer given by the Prime Minister on Friday last

to an oral question put by the hon. member for Lake Centre on the orders of the day.
iMr. KNOWLES: Yes, it was answered.


James Horace King: Dropped.



EXPORTS AND IMPORTS, VARIOUS COUNTRIES

Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: What was the amount of our exports and imports respectively, in the year 1947, with each of the following countries: Cuba, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Haiti, Panama, El Salvador, Switzerland, U.S.S.R., United States of America and its possessions, Venezuela?


George James McIlraith: Calendar year 1947	Import	Export
	(Thousands of	dollars)
Cuba	$ 23,751 S	7,502Dominican Republic	8,186	1,914Guatemala 	9,488	1,630Haiti 	227	1,366Panama 	2,107	1,882Salvador 	1,342	665Switzerland 	11,941	14,196Russia (U.S.S.R.) ..	181	4,866United States 	1,947,679	1,034.226Alaska 	744	300Virgin Islands 	16	160Guam 	-	199709	3,299Puerto Rico 	270	2,605Venezuela 	46,688	12.989



NORMAN WELLS-WHITEHORSE PIPE LINE

Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1.	What disposition is being made of the pipe fine laid during the last world war from Norman Wells, N.W.T. to Whitehorse, Yukon?
2.	What disposition is being made of the oil
refinery erected at Whitehorse, Yukon, during the last world war?	.
3.	Wore said pipe and said refinery imported to Canada? If so, from where?
4.	If said pipe and/or said refinery are remaining in Canada for use elsewhere than in Yukon will the purchasers or users thereof be charged customs or other duties thereon as on other foreign goods?
5.	Are customs or other duties or charges being or to be charged or made to the users in British Columbia and Yukon, Canada, of piping imported and installed in British Columbia and Yukon during said last world war known as Canol project No. 2, and remaining in use there, as on foreign goods?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	The United States government sold it in October, 1947, to the L. B. Foster Company, Pittsburgh, Pa., and the Albert and Davidson Corporation, Brooklyn, N.Y.
2.	The United States government sold it, in August, 1947, to Imperial Oil Limited, Toronto.
3.	Yes. The United States.



IS, 1948

[Stage Direction]
Questions
4.	Under the exchange of notes of November 7 and December 30, 1946 (tabled in parliament on December 9, 1947), and at its request, the United States government was authorized to transfer ownership of these facilities without the latter 'being subject to import duties or excise taxes, it being considered desirable to facilitate the disposal of these facilities by the United States government as it had had to expend considerable sums in their construction.
5.	The United States government has made no similar request with regard to this pipe line since it still has title to it. In the circumstances, if and when the pipe line is leased or rented by the United States government for any period to a private individual or corporation, customs duties and excise taxes will be required to be paid.

Mr. BENTLEY:: 1.	Into what classifications are the beef cattle which will be allowed into the United States of America from Canada under the new trade
agreements, divided?
2.	Which, if any, classes will be allowed into the United States through (a) public markets; (b) private sales?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Schedule XX-to the general agreement on tariffs and trade signed at Geneva on October 30,	1947, being the concessions
extended by the United States provides:
Tariff Act of 1930 paragraph 701.
Cattle weighing less than 200 pounds each or 700 pounds or more each (rate of duty) l^c per lb.
Provided, That not more than 200,000 head of cattle weighing less than 200 pounds each entered in the 12-month period beginning April 1, in any year, and not more than 400,000 head of cattle weighing 700 pounds or more each (other than cows imported specially for dairy purposes) entered in any such period, but not more than 120,000 head of such cattle weighing 700 pounds or more each entered in any 3-month period beginning April 1, July 1, October 1, or January 1 within any such 12-month period, shall be dutiable at li cents per pound; and any of the foregoing cattle not subject to that rate of duty shall be dutiable at (rate of duty) 2Jc per lb.
Provided further, That the preceding proviso shall be effective only upon the expiration of 30 days after the President of the United States, after termination of the unlimited national emergency proclaimed on May 26, 1941, shall have proclaimed that the abnormal situation in respect of cattle and meats has terminated.
2.	At the present time no cattle for slaughter are permitted for export to the United States. It is impossible at this time to prognosticate future policy.
VETERANS LAND ACT-REPAIRS TO HOUSES-[DOT] DISTRICT SUPERVISORS OF CONSTRUCTION


Mr. PEARKES:: 1.	Is any construction or repair work being carried out by day labour upon V.L.A. projects?
2.	If so, what officers of the Department of Veterans Affairs are responsible for the supervision of this work?
3.	How many district supervisors of construction, and how many building inspectors are employed by the department?
4.	Where are these usually located?


Mr. GREGG:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Supervisors of construction (building inspectors) who are responsible to district supervisors of construction.
3.	District supervisors of construction-9 supervisors of construction (building inspectors)1-97.
4.	A district supervisor of construction is located in each district office as follows: Vancouver, B.C.; Edmonton, Alta.,; Saskatoon, Sask; Winnipeg, Man.; Toronto, Ont.; London, Ont.; Ottawa, Ont.; Montreal, P.Q.; Saint John, N.B..
Supervisors of construction (building inspectors) work from the headquarters as indicated hereunder:
Vancouver, B.C., 2; Victoria, B.C., 3; New Westminster, B.C.,	6; Kelowna, B.C.,	1;
Nelson, B.C., 1; Kamloops, B.C, 2; Peace River, Alta, 1; Edmonton, Alta, 4; Calgary, Alta, 2; Lethbridge, Alta., 1; Saskatoon, Sask., 1; Regina, Sask., 1; Prince Albert, Sask., 1; Winnipeg, Man., 4; Dauphin, Man., 1; Brandon, Man., 1; Port Arthur, Ont., 1; Toronto, Ont., 23; Dundas, Ont., 2; London, Ont., 4; Windsor, Ont., 2; Guelph, Ont., 3; Ottawa, Ont., 4; Kingston, Ont.., 1; Campbellford, Ont., 1; Montreal, Que., 10; Sherbrooke, Que., 1; Quebec, Que., 1; Hull, Que., 1; Saint John, N.B., 4; Moncton, N.B., 2; Fredericton, N.B., 1; Sydney, N.S., 1; Truro, N.S., 1; Kentville, N.S., 1; Charlottetown, P.E.I., 1.



CANADIAN ARMY-SPECIAL PACIFIC CAMPAIGN PAY


Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	By stations, what is the number of personnel of External Affairs Department at the following points: Oslo, Norway; Copenhagen, Denmark; Stockholm, Sweden; Berne, Switzerland?	.
2.	Apart from clerks, what are the appointments?
3.	Are medical officers on the permanent staff?
4.	Are local medical doctors employed to examine prospective immigrants to Canada?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	Oslo, Norway, 6; Copenhagen, Denmark, 5; Stockholm, Sweden, 3; Berne, Switzerland,
7.
2.	Oslo, Norway, minister; Copenhagen, Denmark, minister and foreign service officer, grade 2; Stockholm, Sweden, foreign service officer, grade 1; Berne, Switzerland, minister and foreign service officer, grade 6.
3.	No.
4.	Yes. Roster doctors are appointed by the mission.


Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Referring to Mr. F. H. Lehberg, Oils and Fats Administrator, wartime prices and trade board, when and where was he born?
2.	When did he come to .Canada to stay?
3.	When was he appointed Oils and Fats Administrator and on whose recommendation?

4.	Where and for whom did he work before and what was his experience (a) in oils and (b) in fats?
5.	What was his education?
6.	What is his salary?
7.	What is his particular jurisdiction regarding the administration of oils and fats?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Mr. F. H. Lehberg was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, February 18, 1908.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Appointed administrator of oils and fats, April 1, 1945, on the recommendation of the chairman.
4.	Previously employed with the Board of Grain Commissioners, Department of Trade and Commerce, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Mr. Lehberg had over ten years experience in the oils and fats field particularly with regard to technological and economic aspects.
5.	Degree of Licencie en Sciences Chimiques, 1923-1927, Institut Meurice Chimie, Brussels, Belgium (State Institution for Chemical Engineering Studies); post graduate work in food chemistry to 1928; special certificates for proficiency in bacteriology, food chemistry, physiological and clinical chemistry. Master of science degree, university of Manitoba, 1939, with specialization in the biochemistry of fats and oils, and the submission of a thesis on the drying properties and behaviour of linseed oil.
6.	Serves without remuneration (formerly $4,500 per annum.)
7.	Overall jurisdiction in all phases of administering oils and fats problems.


Mr. McLURE:: 1.	What amount of subsidies -were paid under the Marketing Support Act to the fur farmers of Prince Edward Island in the year 1047?
2.	Was the grading standards raised or lowered for the year 1948?
3.	What is the ceiling price for grades A, B, C. D?
4.	Are platinums graded by same system as standard silvers?


Mr. McLURE:: Mr. Speaker, the department got in touch with me in regard to the matter, and they said at a later date they would furnish me with full information; therefore I ask that the question be dropped.


James Horace King: Dropped.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. MdMASTER:
1.	How many diplomatic representatives has Canada presently serving abroad?
2.	In what countries?
3.	What is the total personnel in each office and the total expenditure for the year 1947?

Questions
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	96.
2.	Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Chile, China, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Netherlands, Newfoundland, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, Poland, Portugal, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, United Kingdom, United Nations, United States (Chicago, New York, Portland (Maine), Washington), U.S.S.R.
3.	No. of	
	Person-	Expendi-
	nel	ture
Argentina 	...11	$ 83.872.12Australia 	... 11	53.591.78Belgium 	...19	135.516.63Brazil 	...12	73.318.21Chile 	... 9	66,487.07China 	...17	151,602.86Cuba 	... 8	63.740.47Czechoslovakia 	... 6	42,714.22Denmark 	... 6	23,115.55France 	...50	302,429.03Germany 	...15	31.837.38Greece 	...16	87,485.02India 	...12	62,724.71Ireland 	...10	45,193.33Italy 	... 5	15,172.51Japan 	... 8	38,546.73Mexico 	...18	92.736.02Netherlands 	...15	92,855.97Newfoundland 	... 4	40,527.69New Zealand 	... 9	52,650.38Norway 	...10	66,874.21Peru 	... 8	39,681.54Poland 	... 5	36,613.60Portugal 	... 1	8.618.71South Africa 	... 5	48,467.79Sweden 	... 3	7,963.76Switzerland 	... 7	77,780.37Turkey 	... 5	29,389.97United Kingdom ..,	...78	320.770.89United Nations 	... 7	19,404.27United States	Chicago 	... 8	13,388.14New York 	...21	122.696.03Portland (Maine)..	1,109.53Washington 	...62	283,047.83U.S.S.R	...13	102,712.83Total expenditure	..$2,887,805.76
Mr. McLURE:: 1.	How much work was done at North Rustico harbour (a) in 1946; (b) 1947, to protect the property of fishermen and federal government, and -at what cost?
2.	Has the cribwork been satisfactory?
3.	Was the work done by contract or day's labour ?
4.	Will the dredging of Rustico bay be done this year?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	(a) Saw-tooth and sand fence, 860 feet long at cost of $3,515.06; (b) new cribwork on beach, 750 feet long at cost of $4,220.56.
2.	Cribwork has proven satisfactory.
3.	Day labour.
4.	Matter of dredging receiving consideration.


Mr. McLURE:: 1.	Was the branch of the Bank of Canada transferred or withdrawn from Charlottetown, Prince Edward' Island? If so, for what reason?
2.	Were employees of said branch guaranteed similar positions and reimbursed for transfer expenses?
3.	Where are said employees now located?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Yes. The premises which were occupied by the agency, Bank of Canada, in Charlottetown are owned by the government of Prince Edward Island. Following repeated urging from the premier of that province, the Bank of Canada felt obliged to vacate the premises, notwithstanding that, as understood by the premier, this involved the closing of the agency and the withdrawal from the province because of inability to obtain other suitable quarters.
Arrangements have been made with the Eastern Trust Company to act on behalf of the Bank of Canada in connection with transfers and exchanges of government of Canada bonds. Facilities are also provided at the Eastern Trust Company for the registration of notices of intention to give security under section 88 of the Bank Act.
2 and 3. Not of government record.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. McLURE;
1.	Has a quota been established for apprentices from Prince Edward Island to learn trades in the Canadian National Railways shops at Moncton, New Brunswick?
2.	If not, when will quota be established?
Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:-
1.	No. Under the applicable wage agreement apprentices are engaged in ratio to craftsmen in the service. Applications are received and dealt with on a regional basis, with no quota established as between provinces.
2.	See answer to No. 1.
Questions


Mr. ZAPLITNY:: 1.	Has any work been done so far in connection with the reconstruction of the government dock at Winnipegosis, Manitoba?
2.	If so, what amount has been spent to date on this work?
3.	What is the estimated total expenditure on this project?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	Yes.
2.	$18,415.30.
3.	$22,065.14.


Mr. ZAPLITNY:: 1.	Has the federal government acquired the timber limit previously owned or leased by the Northern Trust Company within the boundaries of the Riding Mountain national park?
2.	If so, at what date?
3.	What remuneration or other emolument was given to the Northern Trust Company as a condition of transfer?
4.	Does the Northern Trust Company own or lease a timber limit anywhere else in the Riding Mountain national park at the present time?
5.	Are permits for saw-logs now being granted or sold to the general public in the area formerly leased or owned by the Northern Trust Company?
6.	If so, what fee is charged for such permits?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	May 1, 1947.
3.	None.
4.	No.
5.	No, this area was not included in the current year's cutting operations.
6.	See answer to No. 5.


Mr. CHURCH:: What action does the government propose to take in connection with the recommendation of the committee on Indian affairs for an increase of 17 per cent for Indian schools?


Mr. GLEN:: The department has no knowledge of such a recommendation having been made by the special joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on Indian affairs. Some time ago the churches operating residential schools asked the department to increase the per capita grants to take care of the increased cost of living. This request is now being considered by the government and it is expected that a decision will be reached shortly.


Mr. HAMEL:: 1.	Since September 1, 1947, how many ambassadors or diplomatic representatives have been appointed by the government of Canada?
2.	On -what date and to what position was each one appointed?
3.	By whom were the credentials signed in each case?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	Four.
2.	Mr. E. J. Garland, September 11, 1947, as Canadian minister in Norway.
Mr. Emile Vaillancourt, December 30, 1947, as Canadian minister in Yugoslavia.
Mr. J. A. Strong, January 26, 1948, as special Canadian ambassador to the inauguration of the President of Venezuela.
Mr. Charles P. Hebert, February, 3, 1948, as Canadian minister in Cuba.
3.	In each case, by His Majesty the King.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: 1.	How many displaced persons have been brought to Canada to engage in mining work?
2.	Of these, how many were found medically unfit upon examination at place of employment?
3.	What provision is made by the government for further medical aid to such persons and placing them in suitable employment?


Mr. COTE (Verdun):: 1. 727.
2 and 3. Ten were found to be unsuitable for employment in mines; nine have been placed in other employment in co-operation with the national employment service; one is in hospital for observation under arrangements made by the Department of Labour.


Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Are recipients of unemployment insurance benefits subject to investigation while drawing the same?
2.	If so, what personnel are used for the making of any such investigations?
3.	Are any such investigations made by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police? If so, on what authority?


Mr. COTE (Verdun):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Personnel of the regional and local offices of the unemployment insurance commission in all parts of Canada and by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, when so requested by the unemploj'ment insurance commission in certain remote areas of Ontario and the prairie provinces within the unemployment insurance commission's prairie regional division.
3.	Answered by No. 2.

Questions


Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: 1.	Since 1936, has the government of Canada paid any sums of money or subsidies to the government of the province of Quebec in order to enable maple syrup producers to change tin buckets for aluminium buckets?
2.	If so, what amounts have been contributed in each of the years 1936 to 1947 inclusive?


Mr. McCUBBIN:: 1. Yes.	
2. Fiscal year	Amount contributed
1936-37	Nil
1937-38	Nil
1938-39	Nil
1939-40	Nil
1940-41	$106,198.41
1941-42	12,576.79
1942-43	Nil
1943-44	Nil
1944-45	Nil
1945-46	87,784.45
1946-47	194,271.49
1947 (to December 31) 106,902.66
School
Central Arts and Crafts, Montreal
Montreal Technical	
Quebec Technical	
Hull Technical	
Three Rivers Technical	
Paper making school, Three Rivers
Saw mill school, Duchesnay	
Home economics school, Montreal Forest protection-Duchesnay ....
Forest rangers-Duchesnay	
Cap de la Madeleine	
Chicoutimi	
Drummondville	
Granby	
St. Hyacinthe	
Joliette	
Lauzon	
Automobile school, Montreal	
Maisonneuve	
Octave Cassegrain, Montreal	
Rimouski	
Rouyn	
Sherbrooke	
Sorel	
Thetford Mines	
Valleyfield	
Montreal West	
Total


Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: 1.	Has the government of Canada paid, in the province of Quebec, any sums of money for the building of arts and crafts schools, under the youth assistance program, during 1945, 1946 and 1947?
2.	If so, how many projects have been submitted, what were such projects and what federal contribution did each one involve?
3.	For what projects has the government of Canada now paid the contribution promised?


Mr. COTE (Verdun):: 1. Yes. Under Vocational Schools Assistance Agreement.
2 and 3. The following projects have been submitted and approved from April 1, 1945 to February 16, 1948. The amount of dominion contribution and the actual payments towards such contributions made are shown opposite each school.
Dominion	Dominion
contribution	contribution paid
approved	to Feb. 16, 1948
$ 125,000	$ 125,000 00
193,750	42,729 94
177,000	106,190 41
97,500	34,331 98
162,500	
25,000	
57,500	25,315 11
5,500	
6,000	264 23
23,000	3,732 52
62,500	50,091 35
125,000	
100,000	
85,000	59,363 77
206,000	156,000 00
125,000	
45,000	15,904 00
80,000	
200,000	
67,150	29,118 87
150,000	86,271 03
57,500	14,800 85
112,500	
140,000	1,500 00
110,000	42,714 44
28,000	
125,000	
$2,691,400	$ 793,328 50
Questions


Mr. CHARLTON:: 1.	What government boards are engaged in
directing and/or sending Canadian food products to Britain? _	.
2.	What are the names and occupations of the members of the different boards?


Mr. McCUBBIN:: 1.	Dairy Products Board, Meat Board, Special Products Board.
2.	Dairy Products Board-
J. F. Singleton, Associate Director of Marketing Service, Department of Agriculture, Ottawa (Chairman).
John Freeman, Exporter, Montreal, Quebec.
J. F. Desmarais, Producer, Iberville, Quebec.
Meat Board-
L. W. Pearsall, Associate Director, Marketing Service, Department of Agriculture, Ottawa (Chairman).
S.	E. Todd, Managing Director, Industrial and Development Council of Canadian Meat Packers, Toronto, Ontario.
Dr. F. H. Auld, Retired Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Saskatchewan Government, Regina, Saskatchewan.
J. A. Proulx, Farmer and Employee of Canadian Farm Loan Board, Quebec, P.Q.
W. E. Tummon, Secretary, Ontario Hog Producers Marketing Board, Toronto, Ontario.
F. F. Baird, Marketing Service, Department of Agriculture, Ottawa, Ontario (Secretary-Manager) .
Special Products Board-
A. M. Shaw, Director of Marketing Service, Department of Agriculture, Ottawa (Chairman).
R. S. Hamer, Director of Production Service, Department of Agriculture, Ottawa.
W. F. Bull, Director, Export Division, Department of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa.
R. W. Neely, Assistant to the Director of Marketing Service, Department of Agriculture, Ottawa (Secretary).


Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	What disposition is made of the unemployment insurance fund?
2.	Are these moneys deposited with the chartered banks?
3.	Is any of this money invested and if so, what investments are involved?
4.	Is any of this money used for any purpose other than benefits and administration of the act and if so, for what purposes?


Mr. COTE (Verdun):: 1.	The unemployment insurance fund is used for the payment of unemployment insurance benefits and any moneys in excess of the current requirements for that purpose are invested in dominion government securities.
2.	Moneys received as contributions to the unemployment insurance fund are not deposited with the chartered banks. However, deposits of funds from the unemployment insurance fund are maintained in certain chartered banks throughout the country to redeem benefit warrants issued in the payment of unemployment insurance benefits and to facilitate the payment of these benefits by cash vouchers in certain designated offices.
3.	All moneys in the unemployment insurance fund over and above the immediate requirements for the payment of unemployment insurance benefits are invested in securities of the government of Canada.
4.	The wording of this question is actually not in accordance with the conditions in that no money is taken from the unemployment insurance fund to cover the cost of administering the act. The only purposes, other than for the payment of unemployment insurance benefits, for which these funds are used are to provide for the refunds of contributions made in error to the fund and to provide expenses in connection with the pledging of securities or advances to the fund as outlined in section 79 of the act.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CHARLTON:: 1.	What Canadian foodstuffs in the raw or processed state are under agreement of sale to Great Britain?
2.	Are these foodstuffs shipped by private interests or by government boards?
3.	If by boards, which foodstuff is shipped by each board?
4.	What was the amount of the agreement for each product in each of the years for which the agreements were made?
5.	What was the dollar value and quantity shipped of each product to Great Britain during each of the years for which agreements were made?
6.	Are the proceeds obtained from Britain for these commodities collected by the boards?
7.	If so, has any surplus of these proceeds accumulated in -the hands of the boards?
8.	How much for each commodity?
9.	Will it be distributed among the producers?

Orders for Returns


MINERAL CLAIMS IN YUKON-SURVEYING
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1.	Has the Minister of Mines and Resources authorized or instructed any official of his department, and if so, what official, to instruct the mining recorders in Yukon territory to notify the owners of recorded, unsurveyed mineral claims in Yukon territory that they must have said claims surveyed by a dominion land surveyor within one year from the date upon which such notification by the minister to do so may be sent to them?
2.	How many recorded, unsurveyed mineral claims are there in Yukon territory?
3.	How many dominion land surveyors are there residing and practising their profession in Yukon territory?
4.	How many dominion land surveyors are there in Canada?
5.	How many dominion land surveyors are available in Canada to survey said mineral claims within one year from the date of such notification by the minister?
6.	During how many months in each year is it practical to survey mineral claims in Yukon territory?
7.	How long does the minister expect it will take to have all of such mineral claims surveyed by the dominion land surveyors?
8.	Have the same or similar instructions been sent to the mining recorders in the northwest territories?
9.	If such surveys are not made, and if the returns of such surveys are not received and approved by the surveyor general within one year from the date of such notification, are the entries granted for such mineral claims subject to immediate cancellation in the discretion of the minister?


VETERANS LIND ACT-KOOTENAY WEST
Mr. HERRIDGE:: 1.	Under the Veterans Land Act, in the federal riding of Kootenay West, what has been the (a) number of loans made to veterans for the purchase of farms; (b) total amount of such loans for the purchase of farms; (c) number of loans to veterans for the purchase of small holdings; (d) total amount of such loans for the purchase of small holdings; (e) number of grants made to veterans settling on provincial land; (f) total amount of such grants made to veterans settled on provincial land?
2.	What are the names of employees administering Veterans Land Act in Kootenay West in 1947, and what were the salaries, duties and expenses of each employee?
31. What amount was paid for rent of premises, and to whom, in 1947?


Mr. TUCKER:: The records under the Veterans Land Act are not yet prepared by constituencies, and to give an answer to this question on that basis would require a tremendous amount of work. It is possible to give an answer for the sub-district of Vancouver which has its office in Nelson. I have spoken to the hon. member and he is satisfied to have the answer on that basis. Subject to that modification, the question might be passed as an order for a return.


YOUTH TRAINING PROGRAM
Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Has the government made any contributions in the nature of scholarships, bursaries, prizes or similar payments out of appropriations for its youth training program or from any other source to or on behalf of students attending universities or other institutions of training in the province of Quebec?
2.	If so, what amounts and to what persons or on behalf of what persons in each of the years 1945, 1946, 1947?
3.	From which government appropriations were such payments made?


CIVIL SERVICE-TEMPORARY APPOINTMENTS
Mr. FULTON:: 1.	What is the total number of positions for which employment has been authorized or approved by the civil service commission on a temporary basis in each of the fiscal years, 1945, 1946, and 1947 to date?
2.	What is the total of yearly salaries which would be paid in each full fiscal year as a result of these appointments?
3.	How many of the appointments thus approved (a) have since been made permanent; (b) continued on a temporary basis; (c) discontinued and the service of the appointees dispensed with?


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: Return tabled.


TRANSPORT OF FREIGHT CARS, TRUCKS AND AUTOMOBILES BETWEEN BORDEN AND TORMENTINE
Mr. MacNAUGHT:: 1.	By months, in 1945, 1946 and 1947, how many (a) freight cars; (b) trucks; (c) automobiles, were transported from (1) Borden Prince Edward Island to Tormentine, New Brunswick; (2) Tormentine, New Brunswick to Borden, Prince Edward Island?
2.	What was the nature of the content^ of the freight cars?
3.	What were the total charges, by months, during the above-mentioned years on (a) freight cars; (b) trucks; (c) automobiles?


Lionel Chevrier: Return tabled.


BAGOTVILLE, QUE., AIRPORT
Mr. GAGNON:: 1.	What was the cost of the Bagotville airport, in the county of Chicoutimi, Quebec, including buildings, landing fields, etc.?
2. Has this airport been declared surplus assets?
3.	If so, has the government disposed of it?
4.	To whom?
5.	At what price?
6.	Were tenders invited?
7.	If so, what are the names of the tenderers, and the amount of each tender?


NATIONAL FILM BOARD-PHOTOGRAPHS
Mr. FRASER:: 1. Does the national film board employ a special staff for the taking and making of stills, (photographs)?
Motions for Papers

2.	If so, how many 'are so employed?
3.	What are the names of these people so employed ?
4.	How many stills were made in the year
1947?	.
5.	Were any of these stills sold in 1947?
6.	If so, how many were sold and at what price per print were these stills sold?
7.	AVhat was the size of prints in each case and state if black and white or coloured?
8.	What was the total receipt from sale of stilis in 1947?
9.	What is estimated cost of taking, processing material, time, travel and other expenses in taking these stills during 1947?


Mr. WINTERS:: Return tabled.


WAR ASSETS-MOTION PICTURE EQUIPMENT
Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	Did the government purchase any motion picture equipment during the war years for the purpose of war services, entertainment, etc..
2.	If so, what -was the total expenditure on this equipment?
3.	Has this equipment been disposed of and through what channel?
4.	Were any war service organizations given any financial assistance for the purchase of such equipment and if so, what organizations, and what were the amounts of assistance given to each?



GRANTS TO PROVINCES

Mr. HAMEL:: What amounts were paid in subsidies, grants or otherwise to each of the provincial governments during the years 1946-47 and 194 < -48, by the government of Canada?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS

[Stage Direction]
in regard to judicial appointments. This appointment has already been made, and I thought the hon. member would drop the motion.
Mr. ZAPLITNY:: If the minister is not prepared to decide whether the letters should be brought down, I would ask that the motion stand.


James Horace King: Stand.
DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE-* APPOINTMENT OF DIRECTOR OF PURCHASES


Mr. FRASER:: For a copy of order in council under date of November 27, 1947, appointing W. D. Lowe to the position of director of purchases in the Department of Trade and Commerce.


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.



REPORTS ON TRIBAL DESTROYERS

Mr. LENNARD:: For a copy of the reports on tribal destroyers submitted to the Department of National Defence in 1947 by the following officers: Lieutenant Timbrel], R.C.N.; Surgeon Lt. Robinson, R.C.N.; Rev. J. L. Graham, chaplain (P) R.C.N.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 
Mr. DORION:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the Department of Public Works and any person or persons, during the last twelve months, regarding the telegraph line on the north shore of the St. Lawrence river.


Alphonse Fournier: Return tabled.



APPOINTMENT OF JUDGE FOR DAUPHIN, MAN., JUDICIAL DISTRICT

Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the Department of Justice and any person or persons since January 1, 1947, regarding the appointment of a judge for the judicial district of Dauphin, Manitoba?


Mr. ILSLEY:: Does the hon. gentleman wish to proceed with this? I wish he would allow it to stand. I do not .think there are any letters at all except letters to the minister, and such letters have always been regarded as privileged


James Horace King: Dropped.



STRAIT OF CANSO BRIDGE OR CAUSEWAY

Mr. GILLIS:: For a copy of all correspondence, engineering reports, estimates of costs and other documents, from January 1, 1945 to date, related to the project, bridging or building a causeway over the straits of Canso, between Cape Breton island and the mainland of Nova Scotia.



SUPERANNUATED CIVIL SERVANTS-COST-OF-LIVING BONUS

Mr. KNOWLES:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and memoranda exchanged between any organization representing superannuated federal civil servants and any cabinet minister or depart-mentaTofficial dated since January 1, 1947, with reference to a cost-of-living bonus or other supplement for retired federal civil servants.



SUSSEX MILITARY HOSPITAL

Mr. BROOKS:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, orders in council, and other documents exchanged between the Department of Veterans

Motions for Papers
Affairs. Ottawa, and any officials of the Department of Veterans Affairs in the province of New Brunswick, or any other person or persons during the past two years, regarding the closing of Sussex Military Hospital, and accommodation of veterans in Lancaster Veterans hospital, Saint John, New Brunswick.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I have no objection to the hon. member's motion, with the proviso that documents exchanged between the Department of Veterans Affairs, Ottawa, and officials of the Department of Veterans Affairs in the province of New Brunswick shall not be disclosed. I am prepared to have the motion passed on that basis. I have spoken to the hon. member.



HONG KONG-EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE DUFF COMMISSION

Mr. BRACKEN:: For a copy of the evidence taken before the Duff commission in connection with dispatching Canadian armed forces to Hong Kong.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: I am informed that the evidence taken before the Duff commission in connection with dispatching Canadian armed forces to Hong Kong includes communications received through and from the British government, and that at the time they were received the United Kingdom made the information available only after the Canadian government had given an undertaking that it would not be published in any form even by the commissioner himself. The United Kingdom government has been asked whether it still objects to the publication of that information. We have not yet received a reply from the United Kingdom government. The government has been informed that we are anxious to receive a reply that I may inform the house of the exact position. I hope meanwhile the motion will be allowed to stand.


Mr. GRAYDON:: May I make an observation in view of the Prime Minister's statement? I would suggest to the Prime Minister that this is allied in a sense to the letter, which is also under consideration, between the two governments. What I would like the Prime Minister to do, if he sees fit, is to give some indication to the British government that this government wants this evidence and this letter tabled. It is one thing to suggest to the British government that we do not care about it-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Gordon Graydon: *-and it is another thing to indicate the desire of this government-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Gordon Graydon: Oh, well-


An hon. MEMBER:: You are out of order.


James Horace King: The hon. member knows he cannot make a speech on the motion.
Mr. GRAYrDON: Mr. Speaker, am I to be denied the right to make some observations, in view of the Prime Minister's remarks? This is a most important and vital matter to people throughout Canada and I am not going to allow anyone over there to howl me down. I will allow you, sir,-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Sit down.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, so long as-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Sit down.


Gordon Graydon: So long as this noise is going on over there I will stand where I am. I am not going to sit down while they shout over there.


James Horace King: Order.


Gordon Graydon: I will sit down when you people keep quiet over there.


James Horace King: I call the hon. member's attention to the fact that these motions are not debatable.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, you allowed the Prime Minister to make an observation, and I was making one in return; I think I certainly ought to have that right. After all, if I may so suggest, Mr. Speaker, we ought to have this government say to the British government that they want these things tabled. It is not enough-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


James Horace King: Order. The hon. member knows the rules very well and he knows that these motions are not debatable. I thought it was his intention merely to ask a question of the Prime Minister. I cannot permit him to make a statement.


Gordon Graydon: I shall not make a statement now, but I have a right-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Gordon Graydon: I have a right to call for a vote on this notice to produce.


James Horace King: Motion No. 11 was called and the Prime Minister said "stand", so that the motion is not before the house.


Gordon Graydon: Certainly the motion is before the house. The Prime Minister cannot determine what is going to happen to a motion. The house has to determine what will happen to it, and I am going to ask that this be put to the vote of parliament, because
58 IS-87
Motions jor Papers

the British government ought to know at least that there are some people in this parliament who want this evidence tabled.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Graydon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, neither the Prime Minister nor anyone else in this house has a right to say whether a motion of this kind shall stand or not. It is for the house and for you to determine, Mr. Speaker, not the Prime Minister.


An hon. MEMBER:: Appeal.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, all I asked was if the house would allow the motion to stand, because I had not been able as yet to obtain a reply from the British government as to whether they would remove the objection they had, for reasons of their own, to the tabling of the evidence. I do not know what their reasons are.


An hon. MEMBER:: Wartime secrecy.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am stating to the house the facts. The United Kingdom government gave certain evidence to the commission which the United Kingdom government asked that the commission itself should not make public. It was not this government that made that request. It was the government of the United Kingdom. They gave certain evidence to the commission and asked that the commissioner himself should not make it public. I maintain that particular evidence cannot be brought down until the British government themselves say whether they are agreeable that it shall be brought down, because it was given to the commission only on the understanding that it would not be made public. There are other things besides the Drew letter. As a matter of fact the Drew' letter is not in the evidence.


Gordon Graydon: I did not suggest that it was.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is entirely a matter for the British government. Certain parts of evidence they did not wish to have disclosed. I certainly do not think that this House of Commons would ask the British government to disclose information which they themselves gave to us on the condition that it would not be disclosed, unless the British government itself is willing to remove that condition.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the Prime Minister if he has suggested to the British government that this government wants this
[Mr. Graydon.J
information brought down and placed on the table of the house?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In the messages I have sent to the British government I said there has been a request for this information, that we wished to be in a position to table the information but before doing so we wished to know whether the government would remove the objection it had to its disclosure.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the Prime Minister when it is expected there will be a return from the British government?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I wish I could answer my hon. friend's question but I cannot. I have sent a couple of cables. Within the last few days the Canadian high commissioner has been here from London. Since he has been here I have asked him if he would again communicate with the British government and say that we were anxious to receive a reply. He has done that, but thus far the reply has not come.


Mr. ROWE:: In view of the fact that Colonel Drew's letter-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Sit down.


James Horace King: Order.


William Earl Rowe: I am not going to sit down until there is order on the other side.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Earl Rowe: I have just as much respect for you as any other hon. member, Mr. Speaker, but until those on the other side stop yelling I will not sit down.


James Horace King: Order. I would ask the hon. member to resume his seat.



ST. MAURICE RIVER-FLOATING OF TIMBER

René Hamel: For a copy of all contracts, agreements or leases concluded between the government of Canada, or any board or agency thereof, and the St. Maurice River Boom and Driving Company, from 1000 to date, with regard to the floating of timber on the St. Maurice river, in the province of Quebec.



CONSTRUCTION OF HOUSES-INFORMATION FURNISHED TO MAYORS OF MUNICIPALITIES

René Hamel: For a copy, in English and in French, of the information sent by the government of Canada, or any department, board or corporation thereof, on October 10, 1947, to the mayors of municipalities with a population of 5,000 or more, regarding the construction of houses.

Veterans Affairs



VETERANS AFFAIRS


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Might I give a reply to the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) to a question he asked me on Monday, to which I said I would give him a reply a little later on. The question was whether it was the intention of the government to send to the special committee on veterans affairs the bill to amend the Pension Act. On consideration, the government feels that a decision on this point should be postponed until the bill has been introduced and has received second reading. The government is as anxious as other hon. members to get this legislation through all stages as quickly as possible, so that there will be no undue delay in making the retroactive payments to pensioners. It may well be that once the bill has received second reading, it will be the general feeling of the house that the interests of all would best be served by considering the bill in committee of the whole. In any event, the decision will be left until that stage is reached.



HOUSING


Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction and Supply):: I wish to reply to a question asked at the last sitting by the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton). It concerns veterans occupying some four hundred housing units in Ville St. Laurent in Montreal. I might point out that this is not a veterans project. It was built during the war to house munitions workers, and if there are any veterans in the project they have moved in to occupy the vacancies which have occurred since the war.


Mr. FULTON:: There is a large number of them there now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The number is not very large. I have the number. There are not many.
On June 13 last an agreement was reached with the municipal officials concerned that the four hundred wartime housing units situated partly in Montreal and partly in Ville St. Laurent, and known as the Cartierville project, would be made available for sale to tenants. Prices ranging from $2,900 to $3,725, depending upon the size of the housing unit, were then established by the corporation. These prices include the cost of permanent concrete foundations which will be installed after sale.
The terms of sale are adjusted so that the monthly purchase instalment approximates the monthly rental that he has been paying. To date, sixty-two sales to tenants have been made or are in the process of completion.
It has been suggested that tenants have been told that unless they buy the houses they will be forced to vacate. This is not quite the case. If the tenant is unwilling to purchase the house, he may remain as a tenant, either in that particular house or in another house in the same project. In some cases, individuals in the project are anxious to buy certain houses, and exchanges are effected to look after the wishes of the purchaser by offering comparable accommodation to the tenant.
A committee of the tenants of the Cartierville project is today meeting with officials of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in Montreal.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, February 13, consideration of the motion of Mr. J. A. Dion for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Bracken, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell.
Mr. P. E. WRIGHT (Melfort):: When the house adjourned on Friday last I was dealing with the position in which agriculture found itself in Canada today, and I may say it is a precarious one. There is a constant rise in the cost of production of agricultural products, and most of the major agricultural products-., are under what amount to price ceilingsp. therefore agriculture's share of the net income-is being reduced. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) has noted this and has stated that the protection which agriculture has is-under the Agricultural Prices Support Act.. As a matter of fact in a previous debate Ite said, as reported at page 807 of Hansard of the present session:
The policy which protects the consumer is sound because we have said in the prices support legislation that if the time ever comes when the bottom falls out of prices we will tax every taxpayer in this country to help to the extent provided in the Agricultural Prices Support Act. that is $200 million, to maintain the price levels.
I was pointing out that in my opinion, under the Agricultural Prices Support Act as it exists at the present time that protection is not there. I have a copy of the act before me. It states that it is an act for the support of the prices of agricultural products during the-
The Address-Mr. Wright

under our present system. Those were the farmers, the grain handling firms, and the millers. He also admitted these people could not use the Winnipeg grain exchange unless there was a speculator there to buy their hedges, and admitted that if the speculator went off that market the market would of necessity collapse.
I do not think that in Canada three of our major groups-farmers, millers and grain handling firms should be at the mercy of a bunch of speculators on the Winnipeg grain exchange. Surely we can devise intelligently some other means of handling our grain. But he made much of the argument that the co-operative organizations of western Canada, which handled more than fifty per cent of our western grain, use the Winnipeg grain exchange and have been using it for years. He said that they have seats on the exchange, and have their men on the floor. That is perfectly true.
Co-operatives in western Canada, operating under our present system, must of necessity use the Winnipeg grain exchange, either themselves or through the medium of a commission firm. It is much more intelligent for them to use their own people on the exchange than to have commission firms doing their business for them. But the hon. member for Calgary West did not say that the men who have headed those organizations for twenty-five years, who came up through farm organizations-first through their local pool committees, then as delegates and then as	directors-were
unanimous in saying that to use the Winnipeg grain exchange was not the best manner in which to handle our western grain.
I like the hon. member for Calgary West. He admitted that his only experience with the "Winnipeg grain exchange was when a few years ago he took a flier on the exchange and lost a couple of thousand dollars. Yet the hon. member advised the house that we should [DOT]continue the Winnipeg grain exchange. I would rather take the advice of the directors of our pools who have had twenty-five years' experience, who have bought and sold many millions of bushels on the exchange, and who are satisfied that it is not necessary for the successful marketing of our western grain.
I say we should close the Winnipeg grain exchange, and that our grain should be marketed through the wheat, board. If our coarse grains are to be marketed through some organization, then that organization should be either the wheat board or some other board set up by the government to do for coarse grains what the wheat board is doing for wheat.

I should deal for a few moments with the question of seed grains. I am receiving letters from the west stating that there is a shortage of seed grain in western Canada-I am referring to registered and certified seed. There was more confusion last November in western Canada in connection with seed grains than there was over the matter of coarse grains-at least that was the condition in the part of the west in which I live, where we produce perhaps the greatest amount of seed grain.
We had been exporting our seed grain during 1946 under quota permits. In November the method of exporting under quota permits was changed to a blanket quota system whereby our exports of seed grain were increased tremendously. Some time in August we found in western Canada that the seed grain handling firms out there were sending men through the province in an effort to get contracts with farmers who were growing certified and registered seed. Apparently these men who were sent out had a list of names of all the certified and registered seed producers in western Canada. The result was that a tremendous amount of seed grain in western Canada was signed up under contracts at a price of approximately $2 a bushel. The farmers did not know at that time that the wheat contract price for 1948 was going to be $2 a bushel. They did not have the information the government had that there was going to be a tremendous demand from Europe for seed grain, a demand which was out of all proportion to demands in other years. For instance, I believe Switzerland placed an order in Canada for 10,000 metric tons of seed wheat, something that was unheard of formerly because Switzerland normally sows fall wheat. But because of conditions over there, they found that their fall wheat crop was a failure and that this year they were going to have to sow spring wheat, with the result that they placed orders in Canada.
I do not know whether these seed firms had prior information on this matter, but I do know it was mighty strange that these people proceeded to divide up western Canada and went out to get contracts from the farmers. As I said, they succeeded in getting contracts for hundreds of thousands of bushels of our certified seed wheat at about $2 a bushel.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Was that seed grain exported outside the wheat board?


Percy Ellis Wright: Outside the wheat pool?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Outside the wheat board.


Percy Ellis Wright: Yes, absolutely outside the wheat board. The wheat board do not handle seed grain.

The Address-Mr. Wright


Clarence Decatur Howe: Then an export permit would be required, would it not?


Percy Ellis Wright: As I said, the wheat board do not handle permits on exports of seed grain, as I understand. This permit system was changed on November 10, if my information is correct.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would be very much surprised if export permits for seed grain are issued without the advice of the wheat board. That was the reason for my question. I intend to look into the matter in the department.


Percy Ellis Wright: I thank the minister for that. I certainly think it needs looking into. These firms signed up thousands of acres of this grain, some of it before it was cut and some afterwards, at $2 a bushel. Then the quotas were changed, and immediately these same farmers began to get letters from other firms offering as much as $3.65 a bushel for their seed grain. I think the government made a serious mistake. They should have notified the farmers of western Canada through the press that they were going to change the quota system and that there was a demand for seed grain. But apparently certain groups of people had this information long before the farmers, and made a nice profit out of it.


Mr. GARDINER:: I do not want that statement to go out unchallenged. As a matter of fact, there was no discussion with anybody as to what the prices would be for 1948 until weeks after the date mentioned by the hon. member. Discussions did take place after I went to Britain at a much later date than that.


Percy Ellis Wright: What date was that?


James Garfield Gardiner: Toward October.


Percy Ellis Wright: Then these people were doing a lot of good guessing, and from the information I have they held meetings at which they discussed the matter.


James Garfield Gardiner: They were listening to the grain exchange and not to the Department of Agriculture.


Percy Ellis Wright: For once they made some money, if that was the case, but the farmers of western Canada lost thousands of dollars on their seed grain. This seed grain is now going into the export market and there is not tnough certified and registered seed grain to supply our own western market. I suggest that the government made a mistake in allowing that to take place. There is certainly room for an investigation of what took place with respect to seed grain in western Canada this year.
I said at the beginning that the farmers were alarmed at the rising costs of production. Today three things largely determine the cost of production of agricultural products. These are farm machinery, gas and oil, and fertilizer. They are the three largest items that enter into our cost of production.
We have had a lot of talk about prices of farm machinery. A committee of this house inquired into farm machinery prices in 1937. I have here the evidence taken and the committee's recommendations and I may say that this is why we were suspicious of the effectiveness of the present committee inquiring into prices. We wonder if we shall not get the same results that we got from the farm machinery inquiry. That committee did at least make recommendations; the present prices committee cannot even go that far. I wish to quote a few of the recommendations of the committee on farm implement prices:
(4) That the companies engaged in the industry, over the period of their operations as a whole, have made substantial profits on the capital invested in each company.
(14) That freight rate increases have contributed to the increase in the price of farm implements.
(12) That the matter of freight rates is of vital importance to the provinces more distant from the manufacturing centres and this is emphasized by the fact that the three prairie provinces absorb at least two-thirds of all farm implements sold in Canada.
Certainly no action has been taken on that last recommendation. Indeed, the indications are that there may be another increase in freight rates, and there has been no indication from the government that if a freight rate increase is granted to the railways it will not apply to farm implements. Other recommendations of that committee were:
(16)	That it is the opinion of the committee that the cost of cream separators to the consumers should be reduced and with that end in view recommends that this item be placed on the free list.
Cream separators were placed on the free list and the price went up. Another recommendation was:
(17)	That reduction in the tariff should and does, in the long run, tend to lower the price level to the farmer, depending on the extent of free price competition in the industry.
I call to the attention of the house that last statement, "depending on the extent of free price competition in the industry". We have no tariff on farm implements now; yet prices have constantly risen ever since that time.
(19) That the provisions of the Customs Act and the Customs Tariff Act affecting the importation of farm implements should be clarified and simplified.
That is just as necessary today as it was then. The present customs tariff schedule on
The Address-)Ir. Wright

farm implements is antiquated. You can bring in an old cradle for cradling grain, but some of our newer implements in agriculture still have to pay duty. I had an experience of that last fall going home from the session. I went through the United States and bought for S108 a small gasoline engine such as is used on almost every farm. When I came to the customs officer at the border I went in to clear what I had. I thought I could bring in $100 worth of goods free anyway, and I told them I had a small gasoline motor. The customs officer asked, "Is it to be used in a pleasure boat?" Very foolishly I said, "No, I am going to use it on the farm". He said that if I had not mentioned that it was for use on the farm but in a pleasure boat it would have come in free. As it was, I had to pay a tax of 25 per cent plus 8 per cent sales tax, and it cost me $42 to get it across the border. Our tariff schedules certainly need revision.
Other recommendations of the committee were:
(21) That these regulations have resulted djrectly and indirectly in the retention in the United States of profits arising out of the operations in Canada of certain United States companies and that these profits have been subjected to income tax in the United States instead of in Canada.
I suggest that the Minister of Trade and Commerce look into that matter.
(24) That the companies should encourage the further standardization of replacement parts in the same implements manufactured by different companies and in addition standardization of the implements themselves.
Nothing has been done with respect to standardization. If anything, the position is worse today than it was then.
(28) That the profit to the farm implement companies on the sale of replacement parts is excessive and the price of these to the consumer should be materially reduced.
As a matter of fact, their profits have increased instead of being reduced:
(30) That over the period 1891 to 1936 retail prices of farm implements have been maintained at too high a level as shown by the financial returns to the companies engaged in the industry, during that period.
There is conclusive evidence that there was need for action then; yet no action was taken at all. At that time we had a Liberal government in the province of Saskatchewan which realized that no action was being taken; so the legislature set up a special committee to inquire into farm implement prices, and that committee in due course tabled its report in the legislature. I quote from this report:
Early in 1936, the companies announced an increase of price in farm implements amounting

to 4-4 per cent as found by the Ottawa committee. It was this particular increase announced after a substantial reduction in the tariff from 25 per cent to 12J per cent that
ave rise to the Ottawa inquiry. Despite a
urther reduction in the tariff to 7i per cent and despite the findings of the Ottawa committee that this increase was not justified, that the prices of farm implements had been, over the years 1913-1936, too high, despite, too, a definite finding that there was an excessive mark up over cost on cream separators and repair parts and that the prices of these should be particularly and substantially reduced, this committee finds that none of these findings were given effect to and that in addition further price increases occurred in 1937.
Later in the report the committee made recommendations, and I draw recommendation No. 2 to the minister's attention:
That the provisions of the Combines Investigation Act of the dominion appear to have been violated by the major companies in the industry and consideration should be given to instituting proceedings under the said act.
What action has been taken? So far as I know, no action whatever has been taken. After a committee was set up here and in Saskatchewan, and after recommendations were made, together with the statements that appear in the report that they believed there was a-


James Garfield Gardiner: May I ask a question? The hon. member says that no action whatever was taken. Does he not know that the three provincial governments in western Canada did take action?


Percy Ellis Wright: Certainly they took some action to endeavour to get the co-operative handling of implements established in western Canada, but so far as this government is concerned, so far as investigation with regard to combines, with regard to tariffs and with regard to freight rates are concerned, over which the provincial governments have no control at all, no action has been taken. I am speaking in this House of Commons and asking for some action here and not in the provinces.


James Garfield Gardiner: If my hon. friend studies the w'hole report he will find that the same kind of action was recommended here.


Percy Ellis Wright: Recommended!


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not know whether he did as I did myself, but I bought shares in that particular company.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: So did I.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think most hon. members over there did, and I think we are asking questions now as to whether or not they have done something.

The Address-Mr. Wright


Percy Ellis Wright: I am pointing out that this government has not done anything. Individuals have done something. We are trying to do something in western Canada for ourselves, but we are not getting much support here. What I am asking for is support here.


James Garfield Gardiner: This government did the one thing it could do. It took all the duties off farm implements.


Percy Ellis Wright: After taking off the duties, the government did not see that the benefit went to the farmers and not to the companies. That is where the trouble has come in.


James Garfield Gardiner: We took them all off, whether it benefited the farmer or the companies.


Percy Ellis Wright: That did not solve the problem, because prices kept on going up. Prices of farm implements are going up all the time. They went up 12i per cent when the government-


James Garfield Gardiner: So has wheat and everything else. It has been going up all the time until lately.


Percy Ellis Wright: We have a pretty close ceiling on wheat and a lot of other agricultural products. That is what we are objecting to. Other prices are going up. I hold in my hand a copy of the U.F.C. Information. In this issue one of the directors of the organization gives an indication of what is happening today.


James Garfield Gardiner: Just to keep the record straight, there never has been a ceiling on wheat at any time.


Percy Ellis Wright: Well, I am not going into an argument with the minister on that. We have all heard the price of wheat discussed in this house.


James Garfield Gardiner: Discuss the facts. There never has been.


Percy Ellis Wright: Hon. members know what the situation is. There is a pretty effective ceiling on farm products at the present time, as far as the farmer is concerned.


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Golding):: I must remind the hon. member that he has exhausted his time.


Percy Ellis Wright: If I am permitted to conclude this argument I shall take my seat, although I have several other things that I wish to deal with. As I said, the price of farm machinery went up 12^ per cent a year ago. Here is a report which shows that the Dries of-
531 :t S3


Walter Adam Tucker: May I ask the hon. member a question? He has coupled in with the taking off of the tariff on farm implements the price of farm implements today. I have heard that argument made by people before.
I should like to ask the hon. member if he is against the removal of the tariff on farm implements and if he believes the rise in price was due to the removal of the tariff on those implements? By coupling them together, he must intend to imply that one had something to do with the other.


Percy Ellis Wright: The hon. member is just trying to draw a red herring across the trail. He knows the position of this group with respect to tariffs.


Walter Adam Tucker: Why does the hon. member not answer?


Mr. ARGUE:: Why does the hon. member not make a speech on coarse grains?


Percy Ellis Wright: He knows the position of this group with respect to these matters.


Walter Adam Tucker: Why does the hon. member not answer the question?


Hazen Robert Argue: Make a speech on barley?


Percy Ellis Wright: The hon. member has been making a lot of speeches in western Canada, but I doubt that they will have much effect.


Walter Adam Tucker: Some of you people will not be back in the next house.


Gordon Graydon: I pity the western farmers.


Percy Ellis Wright: If I may continue I shall put on the record the most recent increase in the cost of farm implements. I have a list here compiled by a director of the U.F.C. in Saskatchewan, which shows that the price of a Cockshutt 80 tractor complete rose-


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Prior to November 1 and since.


Percy Ellis Wright: Yes. This list shows that a Cockshutt 80 tractor complete was worth today in western Canada at the local dealer $2,258. Two or three months ago it was worth $1,703.90; a Cockshutt 6-foot tiller, 11 blades, on rubber $605, a year ago $545; a Cockshutt 12-foot self-propelled combine, $3,843 today, formerly $3,458.85; Massey-Harris 10-foot self-propelled combine, less cleaner, $3,328.75 today, formerly $2,739. I am not going down the whole list. The makes are all here including the John Deere. I quote the following from the report:
The above figures show an average increase of 15-1 per cent on those particular implements over the price prior to early November of last year.
The Address-Mr. Wright

That is another increase of 15.1 per cent in the cost of farm machinery. Under present conditions that is unreasonable. I have evidence in my hand showing that the profits made by these companies have been increasing every year. The same thing applies to fertilizer. I do not need to go into the price of fertilizer. The price has increased to such an extent that the government has admitted it was unjustified. The government has said that the price should be reduced.


William Henry Golding: Order.


Percy Ellis Wright: The government has not done anything to solve the problem. It has not done anything to see that the companies' wings are trimmed so that they cannot do the same thing again.


William Henry Golding: Order. I must remind the hon. member thaf his time has expired.
Mr. GRA1DON: He was interrupted.


William Henry Golding: Order. If the hon. member has the permission of the house he may proceed.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go ahead.


Percy Ellis Wright: I would suggest five things that the government should do at this session. First, we should pass a dominion natural products marketing act, correlating the agricultural products marketing acts of the provinces to give agriculture an opportunity to organize itself to solve its own problems. That is all the farmers want. They do not ask the government to solve their problems for them. They want the proper legislation under which they can work to solve their own problems.
Second, we should amend the Agricultural Prices Support Act, and place in the act some formula for the determination of fair prices for agricultural products in Canada, so that the farmers will know that they are not dependent on the minister or the government. They will know that there is a definite formula which will establish these prices.
Third, I suggest that coarse grains should be placed under either some section of the wheat board or other board, and that the price should be fixed in relation to other grains, so that we can ensure the production of these grains that is necessary to give us the dairy and meat production which we should have in Canada.
Fourth, we should investigate methods of fixing prices. I do not say it is a monopoly, but there is certainly an agreement in the 
fixing of prices of agricultural machinery in this country. There is an agreement in the fixing of fertilizer prices, and there is an agreement in the fixing of the price of gas and oil.


Walter Adam Tucker: Is the Co-operative Machinery Company a party to that price fixing agreement?


Percy Ellis Wright: Certainly they are not a party to it. I am suggesting that these things should be investigated so that in Canada we should know whether we are getting a square deal in these things. I know that these combines are international, but we have not even made an attempt in Canada to solve some of these problems. As a matter of fact, when they started to make an investigation in the United States and they found that they wanted information from Canada, I would say to some of our people from Ontario that they have apparently tried to do their best to stop them getting the information.
Fifth, I think the board of livestock commissioners should regulate the livestock industry in this country.
If these five things were done, I am sure agriculture would feel safer than it does at the present time.


James Allison Glen: I had not intended to take part in the debate, but- one hon. member has referred to a matter relating to the administration of my department which I cannot allow to remain unanswered.
I have always had the highest regard for the member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness), but his action on Friday last in attempting to sully the record of a member of the department who next May will have completed thirty-five years of service is certainly not in keeping with the standards I had set for him. The hon. member knows, as all hon. members know, that statements carelessly made in the house or elsewhere, once given publicity, can never be fully retracted. The story spreads, becomes exaggerated, and the real facts never become fully known.
Notwithstanding the hon. member's reputation for fairness, he prefaced his remarks by stating:
I have received information which I hope is not correct.
Then he proceeded to make statements which were wholly incorrect and the truth of which he could very easily have checked. The hon. member has always had free access to my own office or to any office in the department. I am sure he enjoys the same freedom of access to the civil service commission.

The Address-Mr. Glen


Mr. HARKNESS:: On a question of privilege, the minister has just attacked my fairness in the remarks I made on Friday last in regard to a certain appointment in the Indian affairs branch. He has put my remarks on the basis of attacking a civil servant of thirty-five years' experience. I did not attack any civil servant in those remarks. I had no idea of attacking any civil servant; I made my remarks on a different basis altogether, the basis of improving the personnel of the administration in the Indian affairs branch, in which I have long been interested. The minister, I submit, has totally misread and misunderstood the remarks I made. I should like to read the remarks I actually made at that time.
Some lion. MEMBERS: Order.


Douglas Scott Harkness: To keep the record straight. 1 should like to read what I said at that time.


James Allison Glen: I will read what the hon. member said.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Oh, no. I will read it.


William Henry Golding: Order. It is not in order to interrupt any member who has the floor unless he consents to answer questions.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Privilege.


William Henry Golding: Just a moment. It is in order, if the hon. member is rising to a question of privilege, for him to state his privilege.


An hon. MEMBER:: He did.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I have stated the privilege. This is what I actually said1-


James Allison Glen: Order.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I am
speaking to a question of privilege, and I submit that I have a right to put on the record the actual words I used, which will be found in Hansard of February 13 at page 1198.


James Allison Glen: The hon. gentleman has not yet stated any question of privilege. He is endeavouring to make a second argument on what he has already stated1 in the house and that is not a question of privilege.


William Henry Golding: Up to now the hon. member has not stated the q -estion of privilege.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, my question of privilege is that the minister has totally misrepresented and misinterpreted 5849-88)
what I said in the house on Friday last, to which he was referring and stating that I was very unfair. This is what I said:
I know the private secretary. I have a very high regard for him and nothing in the world against him. But I think a job of this kind, particularly in the Indian affairs branch, should be given to a man who has acquired, over years in the department, the experience which is necessary in order to carry on the work.
I submit that I made no attack on the minister's private secretary or on any other civil servant.


James Allison Glen: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman was entirely out of order in his statement. May I read only one sentence on page 1198:
They have also changed the qualifications, and 1 understand the general idea abroad is that all these changes have been made for the purpose of securing the appointment of the minister's private secretary.
If that is not a charge against the integrity of my private secretary I do not know what it is.


William Earl Rowe: It is against the minister and the government.


James Allison Glen: I do not know what purpose he had in making this statement; but he has certainly accomplished his purpose, because it is now in the papers all over Canada, and I think the time has come, not too soon, when that damage should be repaired and the record set straight in regard to my private secretary. I think the hon. gentleman could have obtained, without any difficulty, the facts which I am now about to place before the house.
In 1936, when the Indian affairs branch was set up, it was thought wise to establish the position of general superintendent of Indian, agencies, and Mr. Christianson, who at that time held the position of inspector of Indian agencies in Alberta-not Saskatchewan. as the hon. gentleman stated-was appointed to it. After several years' experience it was found that the duties intended for the position were too wide and overlapped the work of the heads of the other divisions. Mr. Christianson was therefore transferred to Regina, and until his retirement carried out the duties of inspector in the province of Saskatchewan. When the position he occupied became vacant the duties were changed to make them more workable and to fill the need for a senior officer in the head office of the branch to relieve the director of a great deal of detail work which was becoming increasingly burdensome. The civil service commission agreed with the new statement of duties and authorized the holding of a
The Address-Mr. Glen

promotional' competition among all the male members of the department throughout Canada. I should like hon. members to note that.
No attempt was made to restrict the competition, and the date fixed for the filing of applications closed in the summer of 1945. The commission, in accordance with the usual procedure, asked the department to rate the candidates, fifteen applications having been received. A rating board was set up, composed of the director of the branch, the secretary, and the chief executive assistant of the department.
The candidates were rated; the ratings were reviewed and concurred in by the then deputy minister of the department, Doctor Camsell, and then forwarded to the commission. Mr. Pratt was given the highest rating.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Would the minister
permit a question?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I am asking a question of the minister.


James Allison Glen: I am making a statement now.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Will you not permit a question?


James Allison Glen: No, not now. I am giving the history of this matter.


An hon. MEMBER:: It is a one-way lane.


William Henry Golding: I hope the hon. member will withdraw that remark. The rule is clear that the member who has the floor must not be interrupted unless he cares to answer a question. I am trying to be fair and I hope the hon. member does not mean to imply that I am not being fair in this matter.


James Allison Glen: I am giving the history of these proceedings and I think I am entitled to make that statement without interruption. The candidates were rated; the ratings were reviewed and concurred in by the then deputy minister of the department, Doctor Camsell, and then forwarded to the commission. Mr. Pratt was given the highest rating. Mr. Randle, on whose behalf I presume the hon. member was speaking, was rated eighth in the competition. In his remarks, page 1198 of Hansard, the hon. member stated that the selection board twice recommended Mr. Randle for the appointment. This statement is wholly incorrect.
The civil service commission, which has the final say in promotional competitions, accepted the ratings of the rating board and notified the department of Mr. Pratt's selection for the

position, subject to an appeal being entered by any of the candidates. Of the fifteen who entered the competition, Mr. Randle was the only one who entered an appeal. In accordance with the procedure established by the commission, a review board was set up and certain evidence was heard. In dealing with Mr. Randle's appeal, the board made the following recommendation:
It is also recommended that Mr. Randle's appeal be denied as the board is satisfied from the evidence obtained, that Mr. Randle is not as well qualified as a number of others who have been given higher ratings than he.
This finding should, I think, satisfy my hon. friend that, regardless of anything else, no injustice has been done to Mr. Randle.
Having disposed of Mr. Randle's appeal, the review board, and I contend without any authority to do so, proceeded to review the ratings of the other candidates. In doing so they took it upon themselves to ascribe new duties to the position, different from those described in the advertisement. Then, without giving the candidate who had been rated the highest an opportunity of being heard, they recommended that that candidate did not possess the minimum qualifications. The commission approved the report of the review board and notified the department that the candidate who had been rated second should be appointed to the position.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Why was he not
appointed?


James Allison Glen: He has had his appointment now. I will tell the hon. member why if he will allow me to continue.
The members of the house will readily appreciate how unfairly this procedure works against the candidate who received the highest rating. Having disposed of the grievance of the candidate who appealed, the board of review on their own initiative disqualify the first candidate and he is left with no right of appeal. Likewise the other candidates who might have complained of the first rating would have no opportunity of appealing.
The matter was discussed at a meeting with the commission in May, 1946. It was pointed out that the review board had erroneously enlarged the duties of this position and that they were much different from what the department had in mind. These duties were fully explained to the commission, and an agreement was reached at the meeting that they more closely fitted the duties usually performed by a general executive assistant. It was agreed, therefore, that the title should be changed accordingly and formal action to this effect was taken in August, 1946. The

The Address-Mr. Glen
department then asked the commission to accept the ratings already made in the other competition and to appoint the candidate who had received the highest rating. It was the view of the officers in the department that the commission had before them the carefully considered ratings of the two senior officers and concurred in by Doctor Camsell. These officers were in the best position to judge the qualifications and experience of the candidates to perform the duties which they had in mind for the incumbent of the position and consequently no useful purpose would be served in rating the candidates again.
However, the commission did not see fit to adopt this procedure, and the matter dragged along without any action being taken until last December when notification was received from the commission that the candidates m the original competition should be rated again. Officers in the department as well as myself took strong objection to this proposal which, in effect, might likely subject Mr. Pratt to further injustices. Further, it was pointed out that officers were being asked to rate a second time the same candidates for the new position when the duties they had in mind for it were not much different from those intended for the other position. The ratings previously made had been ignored. What assurance would there be that the second ratings might not also be ignored?
The commission was therefore informed that it was the opinion of senior officers of the department that there was no other employee as well qualified or who had the experience that Mr. Pratt possesses to carry out the duties of the position. The commission accepted this statement and finally selected Mr. Pratt for the position, subject to any appeal that might be entered by any of those who were candidates in the first competition. I am informed that an appeal has again been entered by Mr. Randle and that a review board has been set up again to consider it. This is his right and no one can object to what he has done. I would have thought, however, that when it was made known to him that there were many other officers in the department who were considered to have superior qualifications and experience, he would not stubbornly persist in exercising this right and thus delay the filling of the position which it was hoped would contribute greatly to the more efficient administration of Indian affairs.
The hon. member has suggested that there has been political interference in the filling of the position. Does he suggest that Mr. Pratt was selected for the position because he is my private secretary, and since I am a Liberal,
his association with me has brought him into the field of politics? If not, then I can only assume that he has in mind the fact that shortly before Mr. Randle was appointed to the position he now holds he unsuccessfully contested a provincial seat for the Conservative party and that because of this fact-


Douglas Scott Harkness: I should like to say this, Mr. Speaker; I do not know Colonel Randle. I have never seen him. I have no idea as to his politics; and that has nothing to do with the matter as far as I am concerned.
The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Golding); Order.


Edmund Davie Fulton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I would point out that the minister in his remarks just said: "I would ask the hon. gentleman". He asked him a question in the course of his remarks. I suggest that gives the hon. member a right to reply.


William Henry Golding: I would suggest to hon. members on all sides of the house that they should not interrupt an hon. member who is speaking unless that hon. member consents to answer a question. The rule is perfectly clear.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The minister asked me a question.


James Allison Glen: As I was saying, I can only assume that he has in mind the fact that shortly before Mr. Randle was appointed to the position he now holds he unsuccessfully contested a provincial seat for the Conservative party and because of this fact-


Douglas Scott Harkness: My answer to that question is that I did not know it. The minister has just asked if I was aware of it. I was not aware of it and did not know anything, about it.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: We grant that.


James Allison Glen: -someone in the department, either myself or others, are attempting to prevent his advancement in the service. I am sure that if I suggested to the hon. member that this fact had something to do with Mr. Randle's appointment to the service, which was in the year when the Conservative party was in power, he would protest most vigorously and say that I was besmirching the name of a loyal civil servant who has given years of faithful service to his country; and I would agree with him. Yet this is exactly what the hon. member has done when he implied that there had been political interference with the filling of the position.
In his remarks the hon. member left the definite impression that because Mr. Pratt was
The Address-Mr. Glen

a -minister's private secretary he lacked the qualifications for the position. I only wish he had taken as much lime in inquiring into Mr. Pratt's record and experience in the public service as he did in listening to the incorrect stories of alleged grievances to which he referred.
The members of the house who are acquainted with my private secretary and know his sterling qualities will expect me to place on record his service. I intend to do so, though knowing it will be embarrassing to him. Mr. Pratt was born at North Gower, Ontario, on September 13, 1896. He completed four years at high school before reaching the age of sixteen years. After attending classes which were equivalent of one year's university training, he first entered the service in the Post Office department, on May 11, 1913. In May, 1915, he qualified as clerk of the second division, subdivision B, ranking thirty-third in a competition in which there were several hundred candidates, many of whom were university graduates. In January, 1916, he was transferred to the registration branch of the Department of the Interior. In May, 1917, he -enlisted with the divisional signals and after his discharge was transferred to the dominion lands branch in 1919. In 1922 he was appointed a principal clerk as the result of a promotional -competition. In 1924 he was offered the position [DOT]of private secretary to the Minister of the Interior, who was also the minister having -charge of the administration of Indian affairs. With the exception of a few months he continued in this position until the government changed in 1930. From 1930 to 1935 he occupied the position of chief clerk in the national parks bureau. Following the change of government that year, he was brought back to the minister's office. In December, 1936, vhen the department was reorganized, Mr. Pratt was appointed to the position of assistant secretary and chief of personnel in the Department of Mines and Resources. At the same time he was appointed private secretary to the then minister and has continued to hold both positions up to the present time. It will be noted from this record that fifteen of the thirty-four years of public service were spent in work not in any way connected with the duties of a private secretary, his service in the latter capacity covering a period of nearly nineteen years.
I should like to point out that the respective ministers under whom Mr. Pratt served in the capacity of private secretary had the responsibility for the administration of Indian affairs. As private secretary during the period mentioned, he accompanied the different
;
ministers on their inspection trips throughout Canada, and in this way acquired a personal knowledge of the problems concerning the welfare of the Indians in every province. Again, as private secretary he became acquainted with the complaints made to the ministers by the Indians, and often had to discuss their grievances with them. Many of the complaints had to do with the service of the field staff, and in this way an opportunity was afforded to judge the services rendered by the personnel in the field.
As I have stated, during the last twelve years Mr. Pratt has not only acted as private secretary; he has also occupied the position of chief of personnel in the department. It can be fairly estimated that one-half his time was spent on personnel and administrative matters, and probably more than this when the house was not in session. It has been one of his duties to interview the field staff when they came to Ottawa and to discuss their problems with them. As chief of personnel it was also his duty to act as the headquarters representative on civil service boards. He also took part in the final preparation of the estimates before they were submitted to treasury board. He had to perform many other duties apart from those as private secretary, but I need not take up the time of the house in detailing them. However, it will be appreciated that his work gave him a thorough and intimate knowledge of the administration of Indian affairs, especially the problems connected with appointments and changes in staff and the expenditures required for field operations.
I think it unwise to discuss in this house the relative merits of civil servants for appointments in the service. However, the hon. member chose to do so, and- therefore I have no alternative'-and it is a privilege and pleasure for me to do so-than to speak on behalf of the civil servant whose qualifications are being belittled. I can assure hon. members that I do not look forward with any pleasure to the possibility of my secretary leaving me. On the other hand, I am not going to sit idly by and permit his qualifications for a position in the department to be questioned. I will leave it to others to judge whether his long record of public service and the experience thereby acquired does not fit him for the position to which the hon. member referred. Knowing his modest and unselfish nature, as many hon. gentlemen do, I am sure the house will accept my statement when I say that never at any time did he ask me or any other senior officer to use influence on his behalf. I know personally that he did

The Address-Mr. Glen
not seek the position and only reluctantly became a candidate when asked to do so. It is to be regretted that when he has almost completed his thirty-five years of service he should be subjected to all this unfair publicity.
I had hoped this matter wmuld have been closed after making this reply to the statement made by the hon. member. However, as a result of his careless remarks, certain .garbled and incorrect stories have appeared in the Ottawa Journal, suggesting that there had been favouritism in the rating of the candidates. It is clear that the writer of the first article had obtained access to the records of the proceedings of the first board of review.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Why was the account garbled if he had access to these records?


James Allison Glen: May I point out that these boards are set up by the civil service commission, The members are sw'orn to secrecy, and the proceedings are treated as confidential. The reasons for this are apparent. The second story which appeared in the Journal, incorrect as it was, again indicated that there had been disclosure of confidential information. I am drawing this to the attention of the chairman of the commission, and I have no doubt he will make a thorough investigation and that the necessary disciplinary action will be taken. If any member of the civil service has broken the oath of secrecy, he should certainly be punished.
After I had read the first newspaper story, I felt it my duty to discuss the matter fully with the two rating officers. In fairness to them and to all concerned, I wish to read to the house the statement each gave to me. This is the statement of Mr. C. W. Jackson:
On instructions from the then deputy minister, Mr. Hoey and myself were asked to rate the candidates for the position. We accepted *this responsibility and carried out out task, and as required certified on our honour that the ratings given were wholly on the basis of merit and without reference to personal or political considerations.
I deny most emphatically that I instructed Mr. Hoey to agree to any of the ratings or that I influenced or attempted to influence him to give higher ratings to some or any one of the candidates. 1 also deny that I made this statement that "Mr. Pratt is the man I wanted appointed."
In giving my evidence before the Board I did. however, strongly emphasize Mr. Pratt's qualifications and experience for the position. I mentioned very fully the reasons why we had given him the highest rating and I did say that I sincerely believed that he was the most suitable candidate. I protested without success against certain members of the board attempting to fix duties to the position which were never contemplated. As there was nothing new disclosed at the hearing to make me change my
mind and it being obvious that the members of the board were not as well qualified as Mr. Hoey and myself to determine those duties or to judge the candidates, the story in the paper *that the board "made little progress with me" is quite true.
I have also the statement Mr. Hoey has given to me, and with this I shall close:
In the press of February 16 there was a news item in which statements in quotation marks credited to me appeared. I have no information that would enable me to discover the source from which these quotations were obtained. As suggested in the article, however, I did appear as a witness before a civil service appeal board in March, 1946. No report of my evidence was taken during the course of my submission and the members of the board acting under oath did not supply me with a copy of the proceedings.
While it is difficult to recall with any degree of exactness the words or phrases used during an hour or more of cross-examination, I can say with the utmost emphasis that I did not at any time state that I was acting under dictation or coercion or that influence in favour of a particular candidate was brought to bear upon me at any time. I most emphatically deny that I stated at any time that Mr. Pratt knew "little about the actual work with Indians."
I have given the record as I have obtained it. I think it is strictly and technically accurate, and that Mr. Pratt has been militated against by this agitation created in the newspapers, and also by the speech of the hon. member. As I have said. I am satisfied that no public servant in the service today is more qualified than Mr. Pratt to undertake the duties of this office; and it is an office we wish to see filled because, like the hon. member for Calgary East, I am also very much concerned about the administration of Indian affairs. We felt- that a position such as was being created w-as necessary for the interrelating of the personnel in the field, and that no man of all the candidates who applied had qualifications as great as those of Mr. Pratt. As I have said, I shall be sorry if the day comes when he may leave me, because I know of no more faithful or more conscientious civil servant, or any man whom it is a greater privilege to know than Mr. Pratt.


Douglas Scott Harkness: If the minister would permit a question, could he give us the results of the examination conducted by the civil service commission w'hen this competition was held? That is rvhat I referred to in my speech. I am not familiar with all these various names, these rating boards and all the rest of it. I was speaking of the civil service examination held in connection with this competition. Could the minister give us the result of that and say who stood first, second, third and so on.
The Address-Mr. Manross


James Allison Glen: As I have already stated, in these examinations Mr. Pratt was rated first, and the gentleman in whose behalf you spoke was rated eighth.


Douglas Scott Harkness: You are referring only to the rating by your own departmental officials. I am asking for the results of the civil service examination.


James Allison Glen: Mr. Pratt was informed at one time that he was to be appointed to the position; then this other question arose.


Douglas Scott Harkness: That was on the rating of your own departmental officials. You will not answer the question.


Mr. PARK MANROSS (London):: Mr. Speaker, I intend to take only about twelve minutes of the time of the house. My remarks will be in two sections, unless there are any interjections, in which case there may be some subsections.
The other evening, in discussing a certain tariff item, I briefly mentioned the blind, but today I should like to elaborate a little on that matter because last week was "white cane" week. The white cane is the symbol of blindness. It signifies the desire of the blind for . independence and responsibility. There are a few "do's" and "do not's" in connection with white canes; I am sure all hon. members know about them; but to refresh our memory, let me say that probably the most important "do" outside of watching carriers of white canes and being careful not to blow our horns or race our motors when stopping at stop lights if there is a white cane waiting to cross, is to remember that if you hear a white cane tapping it means the blind person wants your assistance, and you should go to him. That is probably the most important thing to remember.
Among the "do not's", after remembering not to leave tricycles, toys and children's cars on the sidewalks, probably the most important to remember is not to grasp a blind person by the arm and push him across the street. Let him take your arm; let him touch you. This is not because they are fussy but because it frustrates and excites them. They do not want anyone to push or shove them. So if you see a man with a white cane, especially if he is tapping it, just offer him your arm or coat-tail and let him tag along after you.
There are two blind organizations in Canada, which some people find confusing. There is the Canadian council of the blind, which came into being through the desire of many blind people to take an active part in the social life of their communities. Social readjustment is of vital importance to these

people. The Canadian council provides local clubs and groups so that the blind may work together in organizing their own social and recreational programs. In the council the representatives of these local groups can pool their ideas; they can have discussions and make decisions, and this is evidence that these people are capable of thinking and acting constructively and taking their part as responsible, democratic citizens. In passing, I am happy to say that the president of the Canadian council of the blind at the present time, Mrs. Sadie B. Bending, resides in London, Ontario, while the directors are scattered across the country in the various provinces.
Many are apt to confuse the Canadian council with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. They are entirely separate organizations, though they work very closely together. The Canadian council is more or less the social, recreational and readjustment organization. The Canadian national institute is an administrative body, recognized by the governments of the dominion and the provinces as the official agency administering service to the blind and the work in connection with the prevention of blindness. This is the organization that provides teaching and educational staffs, field secretaries, librarians, departmental heads and so on to give the maximum of individual service to all registered blind people, to provide Braille and other educational facilities. At the present time they also establish refreshment booths in federal and other public buildings across the country, which afford employment for blind operators in these localities.
At the present time I believe there are about ten thousand registered blind persons across Canada, so that when we are talking about guiding allowances or additional pensions for the blind it can be seen that there is very little involved, and that no one is talking about the blind in this house for any political advantage, because there are only a few blind people in each riding. Blind1 citizens need better legislation. The Canadian council and the Canadian national institute are sponsoring a six-point program for the purpose of improving the economic welfare of the blind people of Canada. The provision of blindness allowances, which some of us call "pensions" and which is now termed "pensions", and of medical care for eye troubles is beyond the financial scope of any local organization.
The six point program of the blind: is very simple. The first is the creation of a blind persons' act entirely separate from and1 independent of the Old Age Pensions Act. The

The Address-Mr. Manross
reason for this is that for a blind person the blindness allowance is not an insurance against want in his old age, but rather a foundation or stepping stone for his future. The problems of blind people between twenty-one and seventy years of age are entirely different from those of old people over seventy who are getting the old age pension.
Then, of course, they prefer the use of the term "blindness allowance" and the elimination of the word "pension", because to them a pension means that you are pensioned off, that you are on the shelf, whereas the blindness allowance means that you are at the starting point, that you have a chance to get on in life.
Point No. 3 is that they would like the elimination of the means test, and I believe most of us will agree with that. In other words, the blind are interested in getting started. They do not think that when a blind person gets a pension at the age of twenty-one he should have to submit to the means test, because he is just getting started in life. He wants to get his education; he wants to learn Braille; he wants to learn a trade, and they believe the means test should be eliminated. After they have obtained their education or learned their craft, and have obtained employment, they want to be treated exactly the same as any other individual in Canada as far as income tax is concerned. They do not want any special treatment; but they do not believe they should have to undergo- the means test.
Point No. 4 in their program is an increase in the blindness allowance in relation to the cost of living. They believe that, having in mind the increased cost of living, $40 is not asking too much, and they hope it will be made uniform in all the provinces. We do not -think that is too much, either, because they have some expenses the ordinary person does not have.
Their next point is that under the pensions act there is a requirement that a blind person must 'be a resident of Canada for twenty years before becoming eligible for this 'blindness allowance. This is hardly fair. People have come here in good faith from other countries and, after living here for perhaps three or four or five or twelve years, have become blind through accident or some other cause and they find they can get no allowance until they have been here twenty years. They think that period- of residence should be cut to five years, and naturally I endorse that.
They also want adequate provision for medical or surgical treatment for eye conditions to conserve or to restore vision and to prevent blindness.
I felt it my duty to present this blind program because I am closely associated with their work. I know that the blind as a whole are a happy family, friendly and industrious, and are anxious to become independent. They do not like to be looked upon as being wards of the country. In my own little church at home a young blind man reads the lessons from a Braille scripture book and walks blocks in the coldest weather to help serve in his community. I hope that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) will give consideration in his estimates to helping carry out this national program for the blind, which, after all, will cost very little, and I am sure that members of all parties in the house, will be glad to approve the expenditure.


Mr. PROBE:: If the hon. member will permit a question, he mentioned two groups, the Canadian council of the blind and the Canadian National Institute for the Blind as being the only groups operating across Canada. Will he indicate whether or not that includes the Canadian Federation of the Blind as another organization which operates on a national basis?	.


Park Manross: The Canadian Federation of the Blind is another organization which is separate from the Canadian council of the blind and there is no duplication of services. The Canadian federation as a merchandising body and the national council work on a social and recreational basis for the blind.
A word about my riding and the city of London. Somebody will say: Where is that? London is located half way between Toronto and Windsor on the main lines of the Canadian National Railways and Canadian Pacific Railway and on highway No. 2. It is not like Hamilton; you do not have to back into it. It is the beautiful forest city on the Thames river, with a population of approximately
90,000,	and it has one of the highest percentages of home ownership in Canada.
Its industries are diversified. We have a lot of small industries but no really large ones. We do not have big booms or big drops, but things go on, on a fairly even keel. Our industries include printing, lithographing, paper boxes, electric refrigerators, four hosiery mills, paint spray guns, spray motor farm equipment, threshing machines, foundries and tool steels, power tools, radios, two shoe factories, underwear, overhead doors, hardware, concrete machinery, textiles, toys, die castings, fountain pens, financial firms, banking, two head offices of life insurance com-
77te Address-Mr. Manross

panies, and one brewery. We have the kind of industries in London that are perfect examples of what free competitive enterprise should be. In other words, it has not got out of hand, but has kept on its own feet.
An interesting survey was made recently of nine firms in the city of London. They are: Empire Brass Manufacturing Company, Limited
Dennisteel Corporation. Limited George White & Sons Company, Limited Holeproof Hosiery Company, Limited Kelvinator of Canada Limited London Concrete Machinery Company, Limited Richards-Wilcox Canadian Company, Limited Scott-McHale Limited Sparton of Canada Limited
It was interesting to see the results of this survey. The total sales of these nine corporations amounted, in round figures, to $17,000,000. Their total costs, including everything except wages, salaries and taxes, were $9,500,000. Taxes, including sales tax, amounted to $2,000,000, leaving to be divided the sum of $5,000,000. That is what was left after paying the taxes, cost of materials and overhead, and of that $5,000,000, $4,600,000 was paid to the workers and $290,000 to the shareholders, and the remaining $536,000 was reinvested in buildings from machinery and working capital. We were not satisfied with that, so we went ahead to break down the sales dollar to see where it went and we found that it went as follows:
56J	cents	for materials,	et	ceterall|	"	fo-r taxes271	"	to workersl| " shareholders for use of the property, machines and working capital 31	"	into new buildings,	machinery, inventory, working capital and reserves, all of which increase employment
Of the $5,000,000 remaining after all costs and taxes were paid, the workers received 85 per cent and the shareholders 15 per cent. Less the 31 per cent, that went back into new buildings and machinery.
Our free competitive enterprise system in London is not a profit system but a proft-and-loss system, because there have been years when these companies showed an entirely different picture. There have been years in which they lost money and the shareholders got nothing. I thought I would give a description of these industries to show the kind of town it is. The people all work together, and through the community service of our chamber of commerce-I am not a junior any more-we were able to get this information and break it down.

In addition, London is a cultural and educational centre. We are one of the few cities with a drama league that owns its own theatre-not a hall but an opera house. We have a library and an auditorium which is a fine example for Canada and the United States to follow. Many libraries on the North American continent are already being built based on the plans of the London library. It is a beautiful place, with a small auditorium at one end. The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton) is going to have the privilege of seeing that auditorium tonight because it is an excellent place for a small meeting, and lie is speaking to the Liberal association there tonight. Personally I have to hire a hall or snpsk in the market place. The library is lovely, and I hope hon. members will not pass up any chance to see it. We have also a conservatory of music, fine collegiates, a large technical school, with auditorium seating 1,700; that is the one I use. We have also the University of Western Ontario, which is winning a great reputation in medicine and arts and rugby. For the benefit of my colleague the hon. member for Kingston City (Mr. Kidd), I may say that we are developing a junior rugby team so that Kingston will have somebody they can beat, for our senior rugby team has not been beaten since 1939. We have also Brescia Hall, for music and theory; St. Peter's seminary and De LaSalle college, which are turning out high-class graduates; also Springbank park of 1,900 acres at the edge of the city, and Port Stanley. We have many city parks, five high-class golf courses, and we are only twenty miles from lake Erie.
I want to appeal to the government, on behalf of the city of London, to unleash our business district. The city has grown, as hon. members will see from the' few industries I have mentioned, and we need a bigger and better downtown area. But the government, through no fault of their own, but caused by progress, has us fenced in. Our industries have taken over buildings. In every town there is a main corner and a street crossing it. These are considered the two main streets. So it is with London. Our business is concentrated in that small district. At the bottom of the street that runs north and south, two blocks from the main comer in the city, is the subway of the Canadian National Railways. Half a block north of the main comer there is the naval training station and an old post office which is falling down, and an old customs house across the street wdiich is being used by different departments. On the other corner there is a dominion public

The Address-Mr. Warren
building. If you walk two blocks you will find a lot of government buildings. Going west from the main corner for two blocks, you run into the river and the jail. Nobody wants to go that way. Going east, we have a fine wide street. It was widened a few years ago. Two blocks from the main comer you find the armouries. The armouries take up three-quarters of a block.
What we are asking the government to do is this. Dispose of some of these government buildings. Now is the time to dispose of property. We held an auction just recently on a small building. It was not as large as any of these buildings of the government. It was sold in four pieces by the auctioneer and brought in $436,000. The building was seventy-five years old. If the government would auction off some of these buildings they would get sufficient money to erect a new government building on a spot where there is parking space and away from congestion, but convenient. It would be an ornament to the city. The employees would do more efficient work and everybody would be happy. There would be room for expansion as well. I commend this proposal to the government, and I wish they would look into it. If they do anything about it they may take the credit for it, and that would be all right with me so long as we get rid of the old buildings there.


An hon. MEMBER:: Do you not want a post office?


Park Manross: We have a fine post office. I arranged last year for it to be pointed.
I should now like to mention the Veterans Land Act. Various hon. members have made some reference to it in the past. In London we have some houses built under the Veterans Land Act. I agree with the recommendations that have been brought forward. Hon. members know that the administration of the Veterans Land Act cost about $9,000,000, and still some of the houses are not repaired. We have had some of these ultimatums issued. The minister promised the veterans that the houses would be fixed up and that they would not be required to sign anything. The administrator of the Veterans Land Act came along and issued ultimatums, saying that they would have to sign. In fairness to the veterans, this house should agree to the recommendation of a royal commission to investigate this matter fully, so that we shall all know where vre stand and receive information that the veterans will be fixed up.


Mr. R. M. WARREN (Renfrew North):: It is quite a long time since we listened to the mover and the seconder of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. I was accorded the honour of seconding the address on one occasion back in 1938, and I considered it a considerable task for a new member to be pushed into that position on his first visit. Like many other hon. members, I must congratulate the mover and the seconder on the creditable job they accomplished at that time.
My object in speaking on this occasion is not to utter a word of complaint or to make a request. I have no complaints to offer and no requests to make. I have not even any advice to offer. I am going to talk about some of the recent high spots of progress which have taken place in the riding of Renfrew North. I am not going to attempt to go into any detail with regard to my riding, but I will give the house a bird's-eye view of what has happened there recently in the way of progress. Perhaps what keeps communities content and happy is the organization of community groups. We are fairly well established in that respect. In our farming communities we have the federation of agriculture. We have credit unions, women's institutes and co-operatives. Recently we had organized in Pembroke a branch of the Women's Canadian club; a little less recently a Rotary club was organized in the little village of Douglas, and not quite so recently a branch of Rotary and a branch of the Canadian Legion was organized in the village" of Eganville.	Of course, in a town like
Pembroke we have had for many years such institutions as the Kiwanis, Rotary, Kinsmen and numerous others. Then we have the Catholic Women's League, the Alexander club, and many other organizations. In my opinion these organized groups, and others such as the board of trade, are always taking an interest in the welfare of the community in which they are established, and they have a great deal to do with the maintenance of law and order. They have a great deal to do with raising the morale and the standard of living in the different communities.
No doubt all hon. members have heard of a new place called "Deep River". Deep River gets its name from the depth of the water in that part of the Ottawa river. I do not know whether it is true or not, but it has been said that the water was so deep in that part of the river that no person had been able to sound its depth. Not so long ago things began to happen at Deep River. There was a great deal of guessing and wonderment as
The Address-Mr. Warren

to what was occurring when it was learned that a great construction operation was under way. In the course of time not only was there a huge plant constructed a few miles outside the village of Chalk River, but in addition a splendid modern little city began to take shape to house the workers and employees at Deep River. There are about two thousand people living in that modern little city. These people have all the conveniences that one could get in any city. There is a large hotel, a coffee shop, drugstores, places of worship, and so forth. There are also organized groups in the little city. To my way of thinking, it is one of the cleanest and most up-to-date little cities that one could find anywhere in Canada. If you wander around that place and have occasion to meet groups of men you learn that you have to address every second or third man by the title "doctor". I do not mean medical doctor. We have four medical doctors there, a supply of nurses and a good hospital. The doctors to whom I refer are doctors of science or doctors of something or other. One cannot help but be impressed with the fact that with so many highly qualified officials working in the laboratories of the national research council something must be taking place in that little city which will be to the benefit not only of the people of Canada but to the world as well.
If you go south from the village of Cobden a few miles you come to the village of Haley, and a couple of miles east of that village you come to another new station that has grown up within the last few years. At that plant the manufacture of a mineral or metal known as magnesium is being carried on. That site was selected because there is an inexhaustible supply of rock there easily obtainable which is suitable for the purpose for which it is required.
It is claimed that magnesium is 25 per cent lighter than aluminum and 75 per cent stronger than steel. It is a recent development, and no doubt in the course of time that metal will be turned to many thousands of uses not only in Canada but throughout the world. There is a fine modern community around that plant. The officials have all their necessary modern accommodations, and at the plant itself there is a splendid eating place with sleeping quarters for the employees.
Speaking of that particular plant, a gentleman said to me the other day that some day that place will be the Pittsburgh of Canada. The Ottawa river serves as the boundary for the riding of North Renfrew. We all know the deplorable shortage of electrical power; and it is some comfort to realize that at the

Chenaux rapids close to Portage du Fort on the Ottawa river, which is a few miles south of the village of Forester's Falls, a few miles northeast from the magnesium plant, preparations are now going on to develop power there and when completed it will produce 160,000 horsepower. If you go farther west you will find yourself still in North Renfrew when you reach Des Joachims. Work has been going on there for a considerable length of time in the development of power and, when completed, there will be a production of 480,000 horsepower. That development approximates the development at Queenston on Niagara falls. Their nominal output is 500,000 horsepower, and when this development I speak of is completed it will produce, as I have said,
480.000	horsepower.
This required the clearing of 11,000 acres of land to make way for the backing up of the Ottawa river. The water on the Ottawa river will be backed up fifty-seven miles and will require the replacement or the moving of twenty-two miles of Canadian Pacific railway and twelve miles of highway No. 17. It is estimated that it will require the removal of
2.600.000	yards of solid rock, and to accomplish this there will be needed 3,000,000 pounds of dynamite.
Just now there are 1,250 men employed on the Ontario side of the development, and they also have their own modern community, their own hospital, their own recreation halls, and an excellent eating establishment. In fact, in that particular cafeteria there is a sign reading, "If you need more good food all you have to do is to ask for it". That is in North Renfrew. These are some of the highlights of the development, and the progress which is taking place in North Renfrew, and which I think should be generally known.
Hon. members know, of course, about Petawawa military camp. That camp is being transformed into a permanent military camp.
I believe that Petawawa military camp is recognized as probably the best, training centre in the world for artillery purposes. I do not think there is any better spot for the training of bridge builders. In my opinion Canadian artillerymen trained at Petawawa were unsurpassed during world war I and the last world war. I was interested to watch the training of those men in bridge building and later on to learn, when they came home, that many of them had been taken from Canadian corps and placed with other regiments of the British armies because of their expert knowledge of bridge building. During the last war they built bridges all over Europe, including the bridge across the Rhine.

The Address-Mr. Warren
The Petawawa military camp comprises 131 square miles, A part of that military ground, covering 95 square miles, was taken over in 1923 by the Department of Mines and Resources and it is used as an experimental forestry station. Too few of us know of the splendid work that is being carried on at that station. That work is of very great value. Experiments of all sorts are being carried on there, for example, in connection with the protection of undergrowth, the best methods to use in thinning the forest, or the proper distances to leave between trees so as to promote the best growth. There is also work in connection with fire protection and the study of insect [DOT]diseases such as the spruce budworm, the white pine weevil, the heart rot in poplar, and white pine blister. If such diseases can be overcome we shall have accomnlished a great deal in forest protection not only in Ontario but throughout the Dominion of Canada.
Speaking of that area of 95 square miles, [DOT]during the war years an internment camp was erected at Centre lake. I think I am safe in saying that of all of the thousands of prisoners interned in that camp, not one who escaped was not returned in a short time to the camp. Of course a good deal of credit must go to the veterans of world war I who served as a security guard at the camp.
It was an ideal place for an internment camp. These prisoners of war cut their own wood for fuel; they did their own cooking; they looked after their own affairs, and besides that they helped to build roads and in a general way were kept busy. That, I think, was a good thing. At the forestry station, there is a nice community, proper sleeping quarters, and eating places and homes for the officials. A great many conscientious objectors were taken care of there, and much useful work done during their term. It is interesting to note that during the years sixty miles of road have been built through that forest, thirty miles of telephone line and two lookout towers, besides many bridges. But it would be a mistake to think all of that land was going to waste or was not in production during peacetime, because this timber was always growing. Every year a great deal of timber is sold to contractors. Of course any timber that is sold from there must be taken out under the supervision of the forestry officials who mark the trees which they will permit to be cut. Needless to say, all brush and slash must be burned at the time of cutting.
In Renfrew North we have types of soils ranging from heavy clay to light sand. In Petawawa township we have a type of sand suitable for the cultivation of tobacco and
some day we may compete with Norfolk county in tobacco growing. In fact. Major Forgie of the town of Pembroke, who has been doing some experimental work, is fairly well convinced that some day we shall be producing tobacco on an unlimited amount of land in Petawawa township. In 1947 the farmers on the heavier lands were not quite so fortunate as those on the lighter soils. The farmers on the lighter soils in at least some cases had good grain crops, whereas many farmers on the heavier soils, as a result of the wet spring, did not. But if we lose one crop in Renfrew county we are not likely to starve. Every farmer, whether on heavy soil or on light soil, had a wonderful crop of hay. This year any farmer who did not want to feed his hay on his own farm had available a ready market at a fine price.
We grow a great deal of alfalfa. We have hammer mills which transform this alfalfa hay into a meal which is shipped all over the country and exported. It is one of the necessary ingredients of poultry feed, feed for young hogs and dairy feeds. As a matter of fact. I should not be surprised if some of it went as far as Fraser Valley.


Mr. ROBINSON (Simcoe East):: Oh, no.


Mr. SINNOTT:: It does not get even into Manitoba.


Ralph Melville Warren: All right. I thought the hon. member for Fraser Valley would appreciate having some of that alfalfa meal in his riding.


Mr. McCANN:: There is the export market.


Ralph Melville Warren: Yes, it goes overseas; it goes to Australia.


William Alfred Robinson: You must have an export permit.


Ralph Melville Warren: Maybe so. Many scores of our women have turned to poultry and eggs as a sideline; and in many cases it has turned out to be a profitable one. These women, after careful study, have become expert in the handling of poultry and eggs. In Renfrew North this business has become big business. It is interesting also to note that in Renfrew county there was a substantial increase in hogs in 1947 over 1946, a substantial increase in the output of butter in 1947 over 1946, and a substantial increase in the revenue from beef production over 1946. If everything else fails, we always have something to fall back on. We have logging. In almost any community you can mention you will find a sawmill. I often wonder where the logs come from, but they keep coming. This year you may think there will not be any
The Arid reus-Mr. Macdonnell

next year, but next year you find that there are just as many. Something that we sometimes lose sight of is the fact that trees keep on growing. The logging industry in. Renfrew North is a wonderful sideline, not only for many farmers, but for jobbers and contractors as well. There is a market for such timber as poplar. We have such plants as the Pembroke Shook Mills in Pembroke and the Canadian Splint and Lumber Company. The better timber is always going out to various points throughout the country.
We have the most wonderful tourist attractions that can be imagined, almost anywhere one likes to go throughout the riding of Renfrew North. We have lakes without number, plenty of fish, splendid hunting grounds, unequalled scenery, good hotels, good accommodations and good tourist resorts. I would say to hon. members that if at any time they want to have a good day they should go up highway No. 17, or go to Golden Lake, or go in any direction they may wish to throughout the riding of Renfrew North, and I feel sure they will come back happy and pleased.


Mr. J. M. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: I wish to spend some time this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, talking about a danger which is overhanging our country, a danger which is serious now, which could become disastrous, which I think few people correctly understand, and which, for reasons I shall try to make clear, the government seems unwilling to disclose and underline for the benefit of the public. I refer, of course, to inflation. Inflation is- a dreadful thing. I want to quote briefly from the London Economist of January 17, 1948. After speaking about the slow realization in England of what they call the suppressed inflation there, they say this:
... it is obviously true that inflation is the great problem everywhere else in the world.
Then, farther on, they say of England:
Not merely is there an obvious inflation, but it is also clearly reaching the rampant stage.
We have to remind ourselves of what lias happened elsewhere in the world. It is well to remember that inflation in Germany prepared the way for Hitler, because I suppose it is true to say it was the destruction of the middle class in Germany that eventually brought about the conditions of which Hitler took advantage. We are told that today the Russians hope inflation will win for them what they call the "cold war". In that connection it is interest-

ing to read what was said just after the last war by a great economist who became famous, the late Lord Keynes:
Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to destroy the capitalist system was to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some.


Mr. MITCHELL:: What is the title of the book?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It is "The Economic Consequences of the Peace," at. page 220.


Humphrey Mitchell: Thank you; I have read it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Whether we like it or not, we have a considerable amount of inflation in Canada today. Therefore it seems to me it is the manifest duty of the government to be impressing that upon us, to be warning us of the danger, to be calling upon us for the exercise of self-control. Instead of that, however, what do we actually find? We had a resolution introduced a few weeks ago by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) dealing with price spreads. Did that resolution have anything to say about inflation? I do not think the word was used in it. Three or four cabinet ministers, in addition to the Prime Minister, spoke during the debate; and while I will not undertake to say that the word "inflation" was not used by them, I will undertake to say that the point was not seriously made. I doubt very much if it was even mentioned by any of them as a prominent point. In other words, in my opinion that resolution deals entirely with results and not with causes. A witty American, writing about the witch hunt after price spreads, has said, "Inflation is the crime and the government is the criminal." What we actually find is that the government, I suppose because they have a sense of responsibility and wish to divert people's minds, had this committee appointed to deal with profits, hoarding and speculation, according to the terms of reference ; all of which I believe have trifling, microscopic effects on the present situation. In other words, what they are dealing with, as I said a moment ago, are effects, while ignoring the causes; turning away from causes and looking for scapegoats, or a kind of decoy.
How is it, Mr. Speaker, that the citizens of Canada ever allow them to get away with

The Address-Mr. Maedonnell
that? I suppose the first reason is that we in this country have never been exposed to the full blast of inflation. With us it has never been anything more than an inconvenience. We think of inflation as a thing that happens in funny foreign countries where they do not know how to look after their affairs properly. Yet people like the Germans, after the first war, were sensible people and usually able to look after their financial affairs pretty well. I consider it well to remind ourselves that before the first war we in this country used to think about war in exactly the same way. We thought war was a thing that happened in funny, far-off countries, usually inhabited bv coloured people, and we never really believed it would come to us at all.
Let us look back for a moment at this thing we call inflation. In our school books we used to read about the debasing of me currency and about kings who clipped the coinage. Well, we do not have that sort of thing today. In those days, debasing the currency was really much easier to detect. In these days, when we have paper money and the amount of money is limited only by the amount of paper produced by the mills, it is extraordinarily difficult to find out exactly what a government is doing; and, as I shall show, we have inflation now in a very substantial way. If we do not take care and take immediate steps we may have it to a very much greater degree.
The government of Canada at one time had a very sound view on the matter of inflation. I want to read a short passage from the budget speech in September, 1939, which I have no hesitation in- saying was an able document. In that speech, after pointing out that, of necessity, a certain amount of inflation I think it was in the form of borrowing from the banks-was to -be used in order to get the economy moving, because, of course, in 1939 things were pretty dull, the then minister of finance went on to say:
However, as soon as the expansion of employment and production gets well under way and certainly before it approaches its limits, further expansion of the supply of money and credit must be stopped if the danger of progressive inflation is to be avoided. With an economy at full production and employment, the only result of expanding money and credit is to raise prices without increasing production. At such a point commences the cumulative spiral of inflation with all its deadly consequences to the economy.
That wyas the view of the finance department in the autumn of 1939, and of course it is well for us to remember that was early in the war; that we could not expect to foresee the course events were taking, so that no fairminded person would object to the fact that during the war the government was not able to hold fast to that sound principle.
Well, we all know in a rough and ready way what we mean by inflation, the phrase has become current; too much money chasing too [DOT] few goods. A rather more dignified description given by an economist is this; "the situation where the flow of money incomes is greater than the goods and services available for purchase with such incomes at prevailing prices".
I have stated that there is inflation. Let us take a brief glance back now at what actually happened, and see how it arose. First of all, I want to give a few simple figures showing how money and its equivalent in terms of purchasing power have increased since 1939. Of course in that year the country was rather inactive. We should bear that in mind in making a comparison with 1939; otherwise we may reach an extreme view, and I have no desire to do that. The question is far too serious for anyone to want to exaggerate. Here are the facts. In 1939 the money in people's pockets, let us call it money in the till, money in the heel of the sock, or anything of that sort, amounted1 to $216 million. It is now a billion dollars, or multiplied almost five times. Savings deposits, which, of course, are also a means of payment, were then $1 billion. They have now increased to $3,800 million. Demand deposits in 1939 amounted -to $800 million. They are now $1,300 million. In other words, the total of these three in 1939 was $2,100 million, and in 1947, $7,100 million; and as a matter of fact I have seen since then a somewhat larger figure.
You may ask whether I am suggesting that, because the quantity of money is up three times, therefore prices should be multiplied by three. No, it is not as simple as that; it is not a question in simple arithmetic. Nevertheless every serious student of money and the effect of money agrees that the quantity of purchasing power available has a profound effect, and- therefore I wish to talk more about it.
By the way, a moment ago I omitted to say that in addition to the increase of from $2,100 million in 1939 to $7,100 million in 1947 there are also in the hands of the public $6,000 million in victory bonds, which, as anyone will see, really are a means of payment, readily available.
I should like also to say I think it was desirable that there should have been some rise in price from 1939. It is hard to say
The Address-Mr. Macdonnell

what would have been the ideal place at which to stop, but it is suggested that perhaps 1940 or 1941, or somewhere about the time when controls w'ere ,put on would have been a proper time. That is a matter of opinion, and I am not committing myself. But, as I say, I believe we should not regard the situation in 1939 as ideal.
Now', how did that arise? The situation is very simple, as you look back. I read a minute ago the fine intentions as set out in the budget of 1939, that as soon as they got the wheels of industry turning further inflation should stop. But of course that was 1939, and we did not foresee the years from 1940 to 1945.
In those years what happened? We all remember that, because of the war, we got many billions of dollars. You all remember that we paid half of it out of taxation, and for that I give the finance department full credit. I think the way they put taxes on was to their credit. But of the balance, some four billions of dollars was raised by borrowing from the banking system; that is where the real inflation came in. And, again, I am not criticizing what was done during the war. It was what was done after the war that I am criticizing.
Anyway let us see what did happen. That four billions of dollars was borrowed; you get it in the figures I read to you. What did we get in exchange? Well, we got those things that the then minister of munitions and supply was turning out in profusion. We got aeroplanes and ships and guns and shells and munitions; we paid the armed forces; and we built factories.
Then, at the end of the war, in exchange for all that huge amount of money poured out, what did we have? The aeroplanes and the ships were practically worthless. We sold them for a song, if indeed they were still in existence. The shells had been used; the munitions had been fired; the guns had been fired. That was at the end of the war when we had a situation where very little was left, represented by that four billion dollars worth of purchasing power, with the addition of six billions in bonds.
I do not think any fair-minded man up to that time had any complaints about what
was happening. We knew it had to be done, and we all applauded the then minister of munitions and supply. He w'ent ahead and did it; he got the munitions of war, and we did not worry much about the cost. We wanted to win the war.
Then we came to the end of the rvar. There we were-and we were bursting with money, and at the same time short of all kinds of goods. We were short of houses, motorcars and all kinds of household goods which I need not take time to mention. In a word, there was practically an unlimited demand for goods. People's pockets were bursting with money, and we were in very short supply. In other words, one might say that we had material lying around for a prairie fire. What I complain about

and here is where my complaint begins, namely in 1945-is that, instead of damping down this fire, from that time on-and it is still continuing-the government have, in my opinion, added fuel to the flames. And that is very largely the reason we find ourselves in this situation today.
Why did they do that? As will be seen from the white paper of employment and income issued in 1945, they thought-and-I do not think anyone blamed them at that time- that there would probably be a recession. They thought that all the devices which had been used in war would have to be carried forward into peace, and that we would have to have an easy-money policy to stimulate imports. If we read that white paper of the spring of 1945 we see that all the techniques which had been used in war for stimulating the raising of money and keeping exchange rates low' were all outlined, in effect, in that memorandum, as. something that would continue.
On motion of Mr. Macdonnell (Muskoka-Ontario) the debate was adjourned.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Clarence Decatur Howe: Tomorrow we shall continue with this debate and, if it is finished, we shall return to the emergency bill.


Gordon Graydon: Does the minister mean Bill No. 3?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, February 19, 1948