1948-06-18

Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: I rise to a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, in order to call the attention of the house to the fact that a report in a Toronto morning paper states that I opposed the amendment of the Lord's Day Act to repeal the Ontario preconfederation statute. I did no such thing. As reported at page 5360 of Hansard, I said:
I agree that there should be a repeal of the pre-confederation statute.



PHYSICAL FITNESS ADMINISTRATION-FINANCIAL STATEMENT PLACED ON RECORD JUNE 16

[Stage Direction]
Mr. DONALD M. FLEMING (Eglinton): I rise to a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. As reported at page 5348 of Hansard of June 16, I asked the Minister of National Health and Welfare if he would put on Hansard, with the consent of the house, the financial statement of the national physical fitness administration for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1948. Permission was given for the printing of that financial statement. But page 5349 of Hansard indicates that the statement which was put on Hansard was the financial statement for the previous fiscal year which ended March 31, 1947. No doubt that was a mistake. Probably the minister, with the consent of the house, would put on Hansard the financial statement for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1948. (See also page 5628.)
Hon. PAUL MARTIN (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: I will have the matter looked into at once.



ONTARIO WINTER WHEAT-REMOVAL OF PRICE CEILING AS OF JUNE 18

Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I have been asked by several hon. members to state the policy of the government with regard to Ontario winter wheat.
In considering Ontario winter wheat policy for the crop year commencing July 1. 1948, the government has decided that the price ceiling
on Ontario winter wheat can be removed and this action will be effective as of today, June 18. The present treasury payment of eight cents per bushel is discontinued with the removal of the price ceiling. This means that the price of Ontario winter wheat will be free to find its own level under prevailing conditions.
I am unable at the moment to state whether export control will be necessary or not in the case of Ontario winter wheat. If an international wheat agreement becomes operative on August 1, 1948, the export of Ontario winter wheat or Ontario winter wheat flour will be included under all the terms of such an agreement, and export control will be necessary in this case. The government hopes that this issue will be clarified prior to the harvesting of the 1918 winter wheat crop.



QUESTION AS TO RATIFICATION OF INTERNATIONAL WHEAT AGREEMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, notice of which I have already sent to him. Has the minister's attention been drawn to the London dispatch in the Globe and Mail of today, June 18, entitled, "Britons feel wheat agreement for world producers doomed"? If so, would the hon. minister make a statement to the house in regard to this important matter?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has just sent me an extract from the Globe and Mail. The difficulty to which he refers is that the United States government has not as yet ratified the wheat agreement. Whether that government will do so before the first of August is a question that only the United States government can answer. It will be the intention of the Canadian government to proceed with ratification of the agreement, but obviously, if the United States, one of the three producing countries, fails to ratify it, it is unlikely that the agreement can come into effect. Our information is that Australia has ratified the agreement with the proviso that, unless Canada and the United States do the same, the agreement will not become effective as far as it is concerned.
Inquiries oj the Ministry



INSURANCE COMPANIES


[Stage Direction]
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance) moved the first reading of Bill No.
350	(from the senate) to amend the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932, and the Foreign Insurance Companies Act, 1932.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance) moved the first reading of Bill No.
351	(from the senate) to amend the Quebec Savings Banks Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 352, for the relief of Samuel Lankszner.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 353, for the relief of Audrey Maude Victoria Giles Findlay.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 354, for the relief of George Elias Heydenreich.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 355, for the relief of Guiseppina Cannuli Catalfamo.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 356, for the relief of Ann Laurie Willett Allan.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 357, for the relief of Leon Schechter. -Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 358, for the relief of Beatrice Evelyn Tutill Bobinsky.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 359, for the relief of Una Mary Phillips Slavin.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 360, for the relief of Margaret Laidley Lawrie Burke-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 361, for the relief of Albert Ken worthy,-Mr. Maybank.


[Stage Direction]
The house having reverted to the order for motions:
Mr. RALPH MAYBANK (Winnipeg South Centre) :: With reference to the senate bills which have just been given first reading, and others of the kind, I should like to move:
That for the remainder of the session all private bills from the senate when received from that house be read a first and second

time and be referred forthwith, and that standing order 105 respecting the posting of bills be suspended in relation thereto.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: On division.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. CHESTER S. McLURE (Queens): I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Will the minister provide immediately a tug to assist the ferry boat Charles A. Dunning in docking at the Wood Island pier, as difficulty is found by this boat in docking during the completion of the construction work?
Hon. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Minister of Transport):: I do not know that there is any urgency about this matter, nor do I know just what the responsibility of the department is in relation to the Wood Island-Cariboo ferry. However, I shall be glad to look into the matter.



FLOOD CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Alexander Cruickshank: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Has he yet had any report as to what equipment is being secured or has been secured to repair and reclaim the Fraser valley dikes?


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker-


George Alexander Cruickshank: I will make it clear and loud enough, Mr. Minister. Has your department yet made any arrangements to secure sufficient equipment to repair and reclaim the Fraser valley dikes? If not, why not?


Alphonse Fournier: I may assure the hon. gentleman that the Department of Public Works is doing its utmost to have proper equipment to dredge the Fraser river, and it has been doing that since 1886 with some success. We -will continue to do the same.


George Alexander Cruickshank: 

INCREASE IN COST OF BEEF TO HOSPITALS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. L. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: I should like to address a question to the government. It may be rather difficult to answer at the moment, but perhaps they can accept it as notice and reply at the next sitting.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Next year some time.


John Lambert Gibson: The question arises out of a telegram I have received from H. E. Taylor, administrator of the West Coast general hospital. He advises me that in July, 1947, that hospital paid 22^ cents for a side of common beef. Today the price is 40 cents, an increase of 75-8 per cent. He asks me what I am doing about it. Not being a member of the government, there is not much that I can do about it. What does the government intend to do about it?



COARSE GRAINS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. CASTLEDEN (Yorkton):: May I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce a question. What is the amount per bushel adjustment payment on oats and barley authorized to the western grower?
Right Hon. (C. D. HOWE (Minister of Trade and Commerce): An announcement will be made shortly.



SALARIES ACT


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend the Salaries Act so as to provide an increase in the salary of the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward1 Island from $7,000 to $8,000.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: Perhaps I
should say a word on this resolution. As hon. members know, the salaries of lieutenant governors are fixed by the parliament of Canada. They vary in different provinces. For some time past the annual salary of the lieutenant governor in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec has been fixed at $10,000, and in six
other provinces at $9,000. The salary of the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island has been $7,000.
During recent years, as hon. members know, the expense of maintaining government houses has risen considerably, and after reviewing the situation carefully the government felt that the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island, while he had not as many duties as some of the other lieutenant governors, had nevertheless to meet increasing obligations which he has not heretofore been called upon to discharge.
I would mention particularly that the lieutenant governors pay income tax on their salaries. In some of the provinces, government houses are provided by the province. That is the case in Prince Edward Island. That is also true in three or four other provinces. Where government houses are not provided, the provinces make other arrangements in the form of providing official quarters, allowances for expenditures and the like.
I understand that in Prince Edward Island the lieutenant governor has himself had to meet practically all the expenses of the maintenance of government house and secretarial expenses. While that is so, his obligations have increased materially during the last few years. In reviewing the whole situation, the government felt that parliament should be asked to grant an increase of $1,000 in the salary of the lieutenant governor of that province.


Mr. BRACKEN:: Will the Prime Minister indicate when the last adjustment was made in the salaries of lieutenant governors?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I understand there has been no adjustment for forty years.


Mr. McLURE:: May I be permitted to
make a few remarks with reference to this resolution? I was pleased indeed when I noticed that this resolution was to be brought before the house, but I was disappointed in the consolation increase of S1,000 being provided; because, as the Prime Minister has already stated, in six of the other provinces the lieutenant governors receive $9,000, and in the two larger provinces the salary is $10,000. When we compare these salaries with those paid to judges of the Supreme Court of Canada, the salaries of the lieutenant governors are really on a very low scale, in view of the duties and responsibilities pertaining to the office.
With reference to the salary of the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island, I suggest that if it is based on the cost of living, his salary is out of proportion to the
Salaries Act

others, because the cost of living in Prince Edward Island is just as high as it is in any of the other provinces, including Ontario and Quebec. What is the price of butter today in Prince Edward Island, as compared with other provinces? The prices of cars and many other commodities are much higher. When we look at the position the lieutenant governor occupies as the representative of the king in the province, we wonder why the salary should be on such a low basis. In addition to the executive work the lieutenant governor of our province is called upon to do, he is the salesman- of the province to visitors who come from other provinces and countries.
I should like to see the resolution changed so that it would increase the salaries of all lieutenant governors; and at this time we should make the salary of the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island equal to the salaries of those in other provinces.


Mr. POULIOT:: I am glad to support what has been said by the hon. member for Queens. Actually lieutenant governors are like the united nations, in that there are small and big ones-small powers and big powers. So long as there is a lieutenant governor in that province he is representative of His Majesty the King, and I cannot see why there should be any differentiation in the matter of salaries. Many visitors go to Prince Edward Island, and I suggest respect-full}'' to the Prime Minister that if he decides there should be an increase in salary it should be uniform for all lieutenant governors.
Most of these men are gentlemen of means -and rightly so, because the ordinary man could not fulfil the functions of the office. I do not see why we should be so stingy with lieutenant governors in any of the provinces. They should be on the same footing as representatives of the king, carrying the same honours and the same salaries and wearing the same uniforms.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Mackenzie King thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 365. to amend the Salaries Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
On section 1-Salaries	of lieutenant
governors.
Mr. KNOW'LES: Mr. Chairman, I do not object to this bill, and if we are to have lieutenant governors and pay them salaries, there is perhaps a case to be made out for

the point- suggested by the hon. member for Queens and supported by the hon. member for Temiscouata.
Mr. GRANT:: We had a hard time to get that much for him.


Mr. KNOWLES:: I wish also to say that any remarks I shall make in the next few moments are not to be taken as any reflection upon the gentleman who occupies the position of Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island. It does seem strange to me, however, that it has been so easy during this session to have so many of these salaries increased to meet the increased cost of living and increased obligations of public officials, as contrasted with the difficulty we have in getting increases in pension benefits, veterans' allowances, superannuation for retired civil servants, old age pensions and family allowances to meet the same increased cost of living and the same increased obligations of Canadian citizens generally.
Almost every bill that we have put through this session


Mr. LENNARD:: And you get up and say the same thing every time.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I hope that is on the record. Almost every bill we have put through this session has had in it a provision for raising salaries from $6,000 to $8,000, from $10,000 to $12,000, or from $12,000 to $15,000. It seems to me if the government admits that Canadians in these upper brackets are hit by the increased cost of living and by increased obligations, it should also recognize that the same is true right across the board. Either there should be an increase for the groups of people I have mentioned, or a serious and aggressive attempt should be made by the government to bring down the cost of living.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, if I am permitted I should like to qualify what I have said. I have suggested that the salary of the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island should be raised to the same level as that of the lieutenant governors of other provinces. In my view however the question was not so much one of increasing salaries as that of putting all lieutenant governors on the same footing. There is a good deal of truth in what the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has said-and, by the way, this is his birthday, and I offer him my good wishes and congratulations.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Thank you-and move on.


Jean-François Pouliot: The Prime Minister may consider the reduction of salaries of lieutenant

Salaries Act
governors who receive more than the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Hear, hear.


Jean-François Pouliot: At the present time it would appear that the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island receives 87,000. I do not know the gentleman, nor do I know who he is.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If he is a Prince Edward Islander he is a good man.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have no doubt about that. I see, however, that there is considerable discrepancy in the salaries of these lieutenant governors. Those of Ontario and Quebec receive 810,000, while those of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Manitoba, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Alberta receive $9,000 each. Under this measure the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island would receive $8,000.
If the program of austerity is imposed on the lieutenant governors as well as on all other Canadians, they would probably curtail their receptions and save money thereby. To start a new trend in austerity, why not reduce the salaries of the lieutenant governors in all provinces to $7,000, so that their salaries would be equalized? Then they would be on a par with Prince Edward Island.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I had not planned on entering this debate, but I had not read the measure before. It seems that the Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia receives only $9,000, while those of Ontario and Quebec receive $10,000 from the coffers of the people of Canada-and this at a time when my people are under water. There is not a chance in the world of my agreeing to that. The Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia five days ago was out with his good lady going through the water to help flood victims. And he should be underpaid? Nonsense! I agree with the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, that we can raise the salaries of members of parliament, including myself, of the board of transport commissioners, and of everybody else in the higher brackets, but we have to fight to get increases in war veterans allowances and veterans pensions.
If there is to be any increase, then I believe with the hon. member for Temiscouata that all lieutenant governors should be paid the same, or those in the higher brackets should be reduced to conform with those in the lower; and if it is possible to move an amendment to that effect, with these Ontario members, I shall be delighted to move it.


Mr. SINNOTT:: Mr. Chairman, it is not often that I have anything to say in this house, but this is one time I am going to say a few words. While I have no objection 5849-345
to increasing the salary of the gentleman mentioned, because it would seem an increase is justified in order to meet conditions as we find them today, I must comment upon the increases that have been made in the salaries of those in the upper brackets during the past few months, increases of $1,000, $2,000 and $3,000. Those salaries must be paid out of the receipts from income tax and so on. I cannot sit here and take it when I see that the poor man is receiving no alleviation this year from the burden of income tax. I will fight with every drop of blood I have to see that some alleviation is provided for the poor man by way of reduction in taxes so that he can at least make a living.


John Lambert Gibson: When I listen to the hon. member for Springfield I wonder if we are not looking at this thing in the wrong way. Under our democratic system we have a governor general and lieutenant governors. The latter are paid salaries of $9,000 or $10,000 a year, but I believe we are getting $25,000 worth of services.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: Nonsense.


John Lambert Gibson: Everyone knows that a man must have considerable wealth to be able to accept one of these positions. The lieutenant governors are willing to carry out these duties which we feel are necessary under our British system, and they sacrifice from $10,000 to $15,000 a year to keep up that tradition in a manner befitting representatives of the crown. I feel that we are getting a tremendous bargain, as it were, when these gentlemen are willing to act in this capacity.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I just want to say one more word. I think what has been said by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni about the right of these people to carry on the tradition of their position applies equally to the ordinary Canadian. Every citizen of this country has the right to carry on his tradition, and the government should take steps to enable him to meet the rising cost of living.


The CHAIRMAN:: May I point out to the committee that this bill deals with the Salaries Act and refers to an increase in the salary of the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island. I doubt if it is in order to discuss the questions which have been raised with regard to income tax and cost of living as they affect other people.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I have heard some persons speak who are aspirants for the position of lieutenant governor of Ontario some
Excise Act

time in the future. We have an excellent lieutenant governor in British Columbia who is spending from $25,000 to $50,000 of his own money every year. We had great difficulty in getting a citizen of sufficient means who was capable of handling the position. The members of the government know that.
In spite of what has been said by some who have aspirations to fill the position of lieutenant governor in the future, why should one be paid any more than the other? I have the greatest admiration for every one of these people and what they stand for, and I think they should all be paid the same.
(Mr. SHAW: I agree with the principle of ' this bill. I do not think increasing the salary of the Lieutenant Governor of Prince Edward Island by $1,000 will make any difference as far as the treatment of Canadians in other categories is concerned. We can do this and still do the other. But I do not think that we should pay one lieutenant governor one salary and another lieutenant governor a different salary. They occupy comparable positions. It is true that Prince Edward Isla'nd is a smaller province with a lesser population than Ontario, but after all, one member of parliament may represent a constituency ten times the size of another with possibly fifty per cent more population. If we are to apply the principle that is being applied here, we [DOT]hould do the same thing for members of parliament. They are all paid the same because they occupy the same position and bear the same responsibilities. I hope that before long the government will take action to the end that all lieutenant governors will receive the same amount.


Mr. CASE:: Is there any other consideration that goes with this office by way of expense allowances?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The federal government provides only the salary.
Section agreed to on division.
Bill reported.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING moved the third reading of the bill.
Motion agreed to on division, and bill read the third time and passed.



EXCISE ACT AMENDMENT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. J. McCANN (Minister of National Revenue) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendment made by the senate to Bill No. 228, to amend the Excise Act, 1934.
Mr. FLEMING:: Explain.


Mr. McCANN:: The amendment is to section 31, and provides that that section shall come into force on May 19, 1948. The bill was to come into effect upon proclamation, but this particular section had to do with the removal of the tax on vinegar. As that became effective on the date of the budget, it was necessary to have this amendment.


Mr. BOUCHER:: I suppose you are tr3'ing to justify the vinegar budget.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.



CANADA SHIPPING ACT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROBERT H. WINTERS (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Transport) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendment made by the senate to Bill No. 300, to amend the Canada Shipping Act, 1934.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. WINTERS:: Mr. Speaker, the definition of "sailing ship" in the act as it was received in this chamber from the senate was "any ship propelled wholly by sails." That meant that all ships equipped with auxiliary engines and sails came under the act for steamship inspection and for certification of officers. Maritime and west coast members thought that would result in hardship to our fishing fleets, which by and large are still of the sail type although they are all equipped with auxiliary engines. We therefore sought an amendment of the definition, and the minister was good enough to bring in a new definition, as follows:
"Sailing ship", except for the purposes of the load lines rules, means a ship propelled wholly by sails, and a ship solely employed in fishing not exceeding one hundred and fifty tons, gross tonnage, provided with masts, sails and rigging sufficient to allow her to make voyages under sail alone, and that in addition, is fitted with meehanical means of propulsion other than a steam engine.
The senate considered the wording of the amendment too stringent, with particular respect to the words "Sailing ship is a ship solely employed in fishing not exceeding one hundred and fifty tons, gross tonnage." The limiting phrase "solely employed in fishing" means that fishermen such as, for instance, the Lunenburg salt fishermen, who in the wintertime run their salt fish to the West Indies and other coastal ports, and other fishing vessels employed part-time in the coastal trade, would be obliged to submit to

Diplomatic Service Superannuation Act
steamship inspection and certification. The senate therefore struck out the words "solely employed in fishing not exceeding one hundred and fifty tons," and substituted "principally employed in fishing not exceeding two hundred tons," raising the tonnage to two hundred, because there are certain schooners engaged in the trade which are slightly over one hundred and fifty tons gross tonnage. That leaves the spirit of the amendment the same, making it applicable to the same type of vessels but to slightly larger vessels. The amendment in that form, Mr. Speaker, is acceptable to the government.


Mr. HACKETT:: What is the final wording of the amendment? We have had the explanation, but the bill has not been distributed.


John Lambert Gibson: Mr. Speaker, from the explanation just given by the parliamentary assistant it would seem to me that the hon. gentlemen in the other place in making this change were solely concerned with the east coast codfishing schooners. When the bill was before the house the provision was that as long as a ship could make a voyage under sail it was to be exempt from steamship inspection regulations. Our ships on the Pacific coast have greater power and are really more seaworthy than those on the east coast, and the senate amendment differentiates between the two types of vessels used on the east coast and on the west coast. I am prepared, however, to accept the senate amendment, with the reservation that if it does not work out to the satisfaction of the west coast fishing operators an amendment may be brought in next year to make the act equitable to both east and west coasts.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.



DIPLOMATIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. E. HARRIS (Parliamentary Assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs) moved the second reading of Bill No. 349. to amend the Diplomatic Service (Special) Superannuation Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
On section 1-Withdrawal allowance to public official upon retirement or resignation.
Stanley Howard Knowles: The other day two or three members asked the parliamentary assistant a number of questions. Perhaps he or the minister could answer them at this time.
5849-345*


Mr. HARRIS (Grey-Bruce):: A number of questions were asked on the resolution stage. This amendment to the act of last year does not extend to any group of people who were not covered by the original act, but there are certain provisions in the bill with respect to widows. At the present time thirteen diplomats are enjoying the benefits of the act passed last year. None of them has retired on pension under the provisions of the act. When any of them do, they will receive the pensions set out in section 3 of the original act. Altogether thirteen could elect under some of the provisions of the bill before us, but it is not likely that more than two will at the moment.
The question was also asked whether anybody had been appointed this year who would take advantage of the act. The answer is that since the passing of the act one year ago, Mr. Turcotte has been appointed consul general at Chicago.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The parliamentary assistant says that the amendment does not extend the benefits of this act to any persons not already included. May I ask whether it extends to the thirteen persons already included any benefits additional to those granted by the act of las' year.


Walter Edward Harris: The only
additional benefit is that under the amendment, if they choose to retire, they can get back the moneys they have paid in, just as civil servants do under the superannuation act.


John Thomas Hackett: With or without interest?


Walter Edward Harris: Without
interest.	[DOT]


Mr. MacINNIS:: The purpose of section 1 is to permit the withdrawal of any contributions made?


Walter Edward Harris: That is right.


Jean-François Pouliot: Will Mr. Turcotte, Mr. Scully and Mr. Senior come under this?


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Scully and Mr. Senior do not.


Jean-François Pouliot: The principle is the same as that governing the salary of a lieutenant governor. Does Mr. Turcotte come under this?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes.


Jean-François Pouliot: Here we are again-consuls being put under the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is there any other country in the world where consuls are not under the Department of Trade and Commerce? Ambassadors, high commissioners and officials of that
5424	COMMONS
Diplomatic Service Superannuation Act__
kind come under the Secretary of State for External Affairs. But there is no country in the world where a consul is considered a diplomat. These consuls are not diplomats; they are trade agents. The same thing is true of a high commissioner, but there is some latitude concerning the high commissioner. I do not see how in the world Mr. Scully who must come under this-*


Walter Edward Harris: No, he is not. I answered my hon. friend before and said he was not. The persons who are under it are defined in the original act as being ambassadors, ministers, high commissioners or consuls general of Canada. It does not include consuls.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Scully, then, is a consul general.


Walter Edward Harris: He qualifies under the superannuation act in the normal way. He does not come under this act.


Jean-François Pouliot: It does not make him a diplomat. A diplomat is a gentleman-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will not say that Mr. Turcotte and the other consuls are not gentlemen. I know them as gentlemen. A diplomat is a man who has special credentials. He is a man who wears a uniform, decorations, and things like that. A consul, or even a consul general, is a plainclothes man-. His interest is not to serve the policies of his government except in trade matters, and trade matters only. That is the business of Messrs. Scully and Turcotte and Senior. The consuls who have been promoted should be under the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I do not say that to be unpleasant, but it is my deep conviction that the Department of Trade and Commerce should be a complete unit with ramifications outside this country. The Department of External Affairs is an entirely different unit. There is a lot of confusion about it. The finest seats in the gallery have been given to trade agents and so-called diplomats. We have been deprived of those seats for our relatives, friends and supporters who come here. They are empty today. These people pay no attention to our deliberations, even when we discuss matters that concern their confreres. I would say "colleagues" for the diplomats, but I say "confreres" for the consuls. What are they doing? Yesterday we heard something about the triangular trade between Great Britain, the United States and Canada. We have practically no trade with other countries except the gifts that vre make to them.

What is the purpose that is served by these consuls? I shall be answered and told that Mr. Turcotte is in the United States. Very good. He may do a very good job there. But he must not come under the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and he should not enjoy the benefits that are given to these so-called diplomats.


Mr. MacNICOL:: "So-called" is right.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes. For instance, there is a man named Greene 'who was appointed high commissioner to Australia because he was president of the Rideau club, and LaFleche was appointed to poor Greece. He was mentioned in the press as having a yacht there. What does he need a yacht for? It should be abandoned. We go on like that. Some of these diplomats are very useful. I would mention Mr. Desy, for instance, who did a lot for Canada in South America. Mr. Chipman is doing very well in South America. I am sure that our friend Mr. Vaillancourt is doing the best he can in Yugoslavia. We go on like that.
I find it rather funny. These so-called diplomats remind me of comic opera, of the Student Prince, with their uniforms and all that stuff. They should have small uniforms because Canada is a small country and therefore we should not have them too big, and they cannot work on stilts.
The other day the Ottawa Citizen had a very good article about the promotion of a high commissioner to ambassadorial rank. The conclusion of the editorial was how could the king raise the standard of men who are representing him to himself. It is a fine and subtle distinction on the divisibility of the crown. A Canadian ambassador would be the ambassador of the king of Canada, to the king of England, who is the same person. The ambassador is the representative of the head of the state to the head of another state. If the high commissioner of Canada to England were promoted to be ambassador he would be the representative of the head of the state of Canada, His Majesty George VI, to the head of the state of the United Kingdom, the same man, His Majesty George VI, but to a different crown in each case.
Of course, these men want promotion. It may be well deserved. It would raise their standard. It would raise them in importance and they would walk immediately after the royal family instead of walking after the dukes and barons, and all others, in important processions. It would mean a lot to us, and then it would change the status of Canada. Instead of speaking of commonwealth affairs
JUNE 18, 1948	W25
Diplomatic Service Superannuation Act
we would speak of universal affairs and world affairs, and Canada would be changed. We would have another so-called promotion and our diplomats would pass ahead of the king like pall-bearers passing in a funeral procession. The first man in a funeral procession is the undertaker. He walks ahead of the funeral procession. Some of these ambassadors are so conceited that they all want to pass ahead of all royal processions like the undertaker in a cortege or the drum major in a regiment.
I find it funny; I do not find it serious. I find that these men who are there enjoy their positions so much that they do not deserve important recognition. I do not see why LaFleehe is the ambassador of Canada to Greece. He did not deserve any reward. Greene did not deserve any reward for being president of the Rideau club, an institution that is nefarious to sound government policy in this country. Some are good; some are no good. Why do we not weed them out before increasing their privileges?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The hon. member's speech may be very amusing, but this is merely a bill to correct three errors that I must confess we made last year. When the bill was brought before the house last year it did not provide for the rule that if one retires at a time when he is not entitled to any pension he can get his contributions back. That is now the rule which has been put into all the superannuation acts, and this bill proposes to include it here.
Another provision is to correct another error which I must admit. We provided that those who would want to have past service counted should have their contributions based, either upon the actual salaries they received, or the salaries they got when they were first appointed to external affairs. We found in two instances it gave the appointees the right to make contributions on less than the actual salaries they had been receiving, and we do not think that is proper. Therefore we are just taking out that and making it a requirement that their contributions will be based upon the actual salaries that will serve as a basis for determining the pension they will get.
The third point is this. Hon. members felt last year that this was going to be a very generous pension scheme. There are two or three of the thirteen who were appointed who have other military pensions, which means that they would get no benefits out of this. Therefore the third provision is that anyone who is appointed to External Affairs need not make the contributions if he will renounce any benefits from the act. These are the only three things that are provided.
The hon. member has said that some gentlemen appointed to diplomatic rank did not deserve any reward, and he mentioned two.
I can assure the hon. gentleman that they were not appointed with the idea of giving them any reward. It was after considerable pressure had been put upon him that Mr. Greene consented to become our high commissioner in Australia and warned us at the time that he did not expect to be able to serve there for more than a couple of years. He is one of those who would be entitled to take advantage of this bill. Since this bill was passed the only appointee who was not taken from the civil service was Mr. Turcotte, who was appointed consul general in Chicago.
The hon. member for Temiscouata says that consuls general should be under the Department of Trade and Commerce and not under the Department of External Affairs. That is a view as to which some good arguments might be advanced. But I can assure the hon. member that the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Trade and Commerce co-operate closely and that exchanges of personnel have been made. We have appointed to diplomatic rank, gentlemen who have served efficiently as trade commissioners. The trade commissioners are still under the Department of Trade and Commerce, but the consuls provide excellent service to the Department of External Affairs.
The hon. gentleman mentioned Mr. Scully in New York. The offices of Mr. Scully in New York would have had to be duplicated for the service of our delegation to the united nations if we had not had those facilities there. Elsewhere so far we have limited consular service. The consuls of course assist in the promotion of trade, but they also render assistance to Canadian nationals who happen to be abroad. In some places we require to have representatives of the Department of External Affairs who can come to the assistance of Canadian nationals who happen to need assistance. This house places at our disposal each year a revolving fund out of which we frequently have to make advances, which are returned, to Canadian nationals who happen to get into difficulties abroad.
The suggestion that there should be a division and that the consular service should be under the jurisdiction of the Department of Trade and Commerce is one that is worthy of consideration, but no solution could be arrived at on this bill. This bill does not provide any extension of benefit beyond that one which, I think it was two years ago, the house generally approved. Hon. members of the house will remember that formerly if a civil servant were dismissed, he did not get back his con-
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tributions. The house, I think unanimously, felt that it was improper for such a situation to exist, and that if the contribution for a pension did not mature into a pension, the one who had made the contribution should get it back without interest. That is the only benefit extended here.
The other two provisions are rather restrictive. A man can choose to stay out, not make any contributions and not get any right whatsoever under the bill. The other provision is that he will not have the right to make a smaller contribution than that determined by the actual salary he gets in the period for which he is making the contribution.


Angus MacInnis: I think the Secretary of State for External Affairs has explained the bill satisfactorily, and there is really not much to it. Last year when the bill was introduced, we in this section of the house opposed it as being that sort of class legislation that we so often get in this house. However, the bill being passed, I think these amendments are quite proper.
The hon. member for Temiscouata evidently does not like diplomats. I imagine he would agree with the old definition, that a diplomat is an honest man who is sent abroad to lie for ?his country. He would make an exception and perhaps say they were not all honest men before they left. However, while we could find fault with the appointments made by the *government, I think that once an appointment is made it does not serve any useful purpose to criticize it in this house. It does not increase the respect for or the prestige of our representative abroad, wherever he may be. Therefore I think comments along that line would be better left unsaid.


Jean-François Pouliot: I wish to thank the Secretary of State for External Affairs for the information that he has given. As usual, he has been clear and concise; he has explained the purpose of the bill. We may differ, and at the same time respect other people's views. But when there is something funny-and I do not say that in order to discredit my country;
I say it because I find it funny, and people from other countries who were witnesses to the fact must find it funny too-we should be allowed to laugh. I am sure that if the hon. member for Vancouver East saw some of the diplomats and the pictures that are taken of them, he would laugh heartily. Nevertheless, he would be a good citizen.
The Secretary of State for External Affairs knows that I have great admiration for him, and he admits the views of people who do not share his own. But I understand that Mr. Turcotte will benefit from this bill because

when he was appointed he was not a civil servant ; and that Mr. Scully who was a deputy minister, and Mr. Senior, who was with the department, will be seconded to the department of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Is that so?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: They are not precisely seconded. They are appointed to the staff of the Department of External Affairs. But under the bill passed last year, only those who did not have any other superannuation rights are entitled to the rights provided for by last year's 'bill. Mr. Scully and Mr. Senior were already under the superannuation act in the civil service and continue to remain under that act though becoming members of the. staff of External Affairs.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the minister for the explanation. As I understand it now, the bill applies to full-fledged diplomats and to consuls 'who were not previously in the government service.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Consuls general.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, consuls general; it applies to consuls. The minister spoke of Mr. Scully, who is doing a good job in New York. That may be so. I heard the same thing said by many others. I hear that Mr. Turcotte is doing well, and I am sure that Mr. Senior will do well too. The thing to do is to centralize the good dispositions of the people of another country and to make them understand the great possibilities of Canada. But I do not think that the positions of consuls and diplomats are interchangeable. The position of trade commissioner is a full-fledged job which is of the utmost importance to this country. What iwe get through the services of those men, consuls and trade commissioners, is much more than we get from the services of the so-called full fledged diplomats. Our diplomats could disappear and the country would not suffer in consequence except perhaps theoretically; but good trade commissioners, good consuls and good consuls general, with all the assistance of the government, are needed in every part of the world, not only in the United States and the United Kingdom.


Mr. FERGUSON:: This nation is associated with all the other nations of the world, and we have a government which appoints diplomatic representatives and trade representatives. I am expressing not only my own views but, I believe, the views of others when I say that it neither decreases nor enhances the ability of our representatives in foreign fields whether they occupy this or that position in a cortege. Whether it be at a duke's funeral or at the funeral of a king, it makes no difference

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whether one follows the hearse or the gun carriage; such order of precedence has not much to do with the efficiency of our foreign representatives. I do not believe this is the place to criticize these men personally, and I presume they are all Liberals if they are appointed by a Liberal administration.


Jean-François Pouliot: No.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Well, I believe that there are good men in my own party and if that party were in power I would try to select men of the greatest ability for appointment to these positions. If I could not find them in my own party I might go to the other party.


Jean-François Pouliot: You would do much better.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: The usual course is to appoint men with the greatest ability and the best brains irrespective of whether they are members of the Rideau club or any other club. I do not think it is the wisest thing to have it broadcast from this House of Commons that a man selected for one of these positions to represent this country has been chosen because he is a member of the Rideau club. I cannot conceive that even the Liberal party would resort to that sort of selection in making appointments.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
On section 5-Election not to contribute under section four.
Mr. PEARKES:: Would any official who had earned a pension under some other act draw that pension while holding appointment under the Department of External Affairs?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: No. He would not receive both pension and salary. The salary would be adjusted in the light of the amount of pension that was payable.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Golding in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
532. Departmental administration, $2,253,340.
Hon. MILTON F. GREGG (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer to a speech made by the hon. member for Lethbridge on June 8, as reported at page 4903 of Hansard, on a motion to go into supply, in which he made certain charges
and asked specific questions relating to two cases which have been brought to my attention.
I think the reply would come more properly under this item, which covers general administration, than any other. I regret that I and other members of the parliamentary committee were not in the house when the hon. member made his speech. The committee was in session on veterans affairs and was busy at the time. Neither did I have knowledge that the hon. member intended to discuss these matters. I did not know that he was interested in the two cases to which he referred. If I had known that, I would have been very glad to give him correct and complete information regarding them.
It will be noted that the complaints made by the hon. member the other day were apparently based upon representations made to him by Captain Walter H. Kirchner, of British Columbia. The committee will remember that in times past a number of serious charges had been made by Captain Kirchner, whereupon my predecessor appointed a commission composed of Doctor McCann, Doctor Blair, Doctor McGarry, Mr. Probe and Mr. Winters, all members of this house.
Last fall this commission went to British Columbia and conducted a thorough investigation into all charges made. Both cases referred to the other day were looked into by the commission at that time. The commission submitted its report to the government shortly after I became minister, and on March 9 last I tabled that report in this house. Although the report has been available since March, the hon. member made such unwarranted statements the other day, at the same time demanding replies to his questions, that I feel I should place on record the actual facts regarding these two cases. I do so, Mr. Chairman, much as I deplore the naming of individual veterans in this house, unless it is absolutely essential. But since they were named with regard to the complaints, I can do no other than follow suit now.
No. 77732, Sholto B. McClellan: Mr. McClellan is a veteran of world war I who served from November, 1914, to May, 1918, part of his service being in France. On enlistment his age was thirty-nine years. Following discharge from service, entitlement was conceded for myalgia and pension was awarded in accordance with the extent of disability resulting from that condition. Disability was assessed at 15 per cent and pension went into payment accordingly. Early examination took place on four subsequent occasions, but there was
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[Stage Direction]
no indication of any increase in disability. In December, 1923, application was made for treatment in respect of haemorrhoids and the commission conceded entitlement for this condition, which improved with treatment, and there was no resultant disability. In 1926, following discharge from treatment, it was considered that there was increase in the disability resulting from arthritis and pension was increased accordingly to 30 per cent. Again, in 1928, following treatment, there was considered to be further disability and pension was increased to 50 per cent. In 1929 he applied for bronchitis, which the commission ruled to be a post-discharge condition. This claim was heard by the pension appeal court in March, 1931, and was disallowed, as bronchitis was ruled as not attributable to service. During subsequent years he has been examined on different occasions and the pension continued at 50 per cent, which was in accordance with the degree of pensionable disability.
In 1939 he was in receipt of war veterans allowance, which was discontinued in 1942 owing to his having secured employment. As a result of representations received on behalf of this pensioner a re-examination was ordered, and this took place in August, 1947. The x-ray of both knees, both shoulders, spine and pelvis showed moderate hypertrophic-arthritis, and reports indicate that examination showed joint movements as practically full range. There was no evidence of haemorrhoids at the time of this examination, and pension was continued at 50 per cent, which was again considered to be a very fair one for the degree of pensionable disability.
It should be pointed out that the pensioner by this time is seventy-two years of age. This pensioner appeared before the McCann commission in Vancouver in January of this year, and on February 18, 1948, forwarded a statement regarding his case to the members of that commission. The statement was forwarded for the consideration of the commission, and instructions were issued to the Vancouver office on March 22, 1948, to recall him for pension medical re-examination with particular regard to his complaint regarding the assessment of any disability resulting from haemorrhoids.
In a letter which is dated April 2, 1948, he refused to appear. To sum up the case, this veteran of world war I has been fully compensated at all times in accordance with the degree of pensionable disability found on medical re-examination. It must be remembered that he is now seventy-two years of age, and age alone is quite a factor in his present

condition. I might add that there would appear to be no reason why he should not now apply for war veterans allowance.
We come now to the second case, No. V-52017, Connorton, F. W. (R.C.N.V.R.). Mr. Connorton served from December 1942 until March 1946, his entire period of service being rendered in Canada. Following discharge a condition of spondylolisthesis, which I am told by the doctors is something approaching difficulty with the lower spine, was diagnosed. And this I might say is a constitutional developmental condition. The commission ruled it to be pre-enlistment in origin and aggravated to the extent of three-fifths during his service in Canada, which was in Canada only.
His last examination was in January of this year when, to quote his own words, he made the following complaint:
My back feels fair except if I bend over any length of time it becomes painful at the upper part of the fusion and tends to stiffen up.
_ As a result of reports and specialists' opinions on file and a very thorough examination, his entire disability was assessed at 30 per cent. He has entitlement to an aggravation of three-fifths of that amount, namely IS per cent, and pension is in payment accordingly. It is of interest to note that when he reported for examination on March 15 of this year he stated he was working.
Questions were asked by the hon. member for Lethbridge, as reported in Hansard for June 8, 1948, at page 4903, with reference to Frank W. Connorton. The first question was: Did this man's condition partly result from an appendix operation in June, 1943?
The answer is: The man's condition had no relation to the appendectomy performed in June 1943, while he was in the active forces.
The spinal anaesthetic given at this time, for which eight punctures were alleged to be given, was investigated, and competent medical opinion states that there is no relation between the incidents surrounding this operation and his subsequent back disability.
The second question: Did his tragic final condition partly result from his effort to do work for which surgical bungling had unfitted him?
The answer: Careful examination of the medical treatment shows that there was no "surgical bungling" of this case.
The third question: Did his condition result in any considerable measure from a spinal fusion operation on November 15, 1945, apparently unsuccessful, and subsequent mismanagement on the part of government officials in the army?

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The answer: While the Department of Veterans Affairs was not responsible for this man's treatment until March 18, 1946, a review of his treatment that is available on his army file does not disclose any mismanagement on the part of government officials in the army.
The fourth question: Was his misfortune partly the result of a second unsuccessful spinal fusion operation on or about September 18, 1946?
The answer: The unsuccessful spinal fusions done on November 15, 1945, while he was under the medical care of the armed services, and again on September 18, 1946, while he was under the medical care of the Department of Veterans Affairs, are not unusual happenings in the treatment of such cases. These attempted fusion operations did not increase his disability even if they did not completely do away with it.
The public inquiry held under P.C. 4980 to which reference was made earlier, included investigation of such cases in Shaughnessy hospital, Vancouver. Connorton's case was one of those investigated. Some of the conclusions arrived at as a result of investigation are contained in the report of January 8, 1948, paragraph 9 of which states:
The commission is satisfied with, and finds no basis for complaint concerning the organization, operation and facilities of Shaughnessy hospital and the other institutions inspected.
The commission is satisfied with, and finds no basis for complaint concerning the qualifications of departmental doctors. In two cases veterans harboured resentment against the psychiatric service. Some lack of experience on the part of a junior psychiatrist and the inability of these patients to understand the reasons for psychiatric methods-although allegedly the reasons were fully explained to them -were factors which led to this resentment. The commission is satisfied however that this did not detract from the professional value of the psychiatrist's work nor from the adequacy of the treatment. On the whole, the commission is fully satisfied with the high degree of competence of all departmental doctors.
The commission found that the medical and surgical treatments and the results attained are quite satisfactory and of a high calibre-as high as in any hospital in Canada. The percentage of successful operations at Shaughnessy hospital is, in the opinion of the commission, well in line with that obtaining anywhere in the profession.
The commission examined fully the cases of low back pains and resulting disability because of the emphasis placed by Mr. Kirchner on this group. The commission concluded:
It was established to the satisfaction of the commission, after detailed questioning of professional witnesses, that while the operation is not alw-ays completely successful, the percentage of successes at Shaughnessy is at least as high as
that obtaining elsewhere. Back fusion is regarded as a major operation and is only undertaken at Shaughnessy hospital after a consultation at which it has been decided that the operation is in the veteran's best interests and is likely to lead to improvement of his condition. The commission wishes to comment particularly on the high qualifications and exceptional competence of the neurosurgeon specialists at Shaughnessy hospital.
I may say that the part of the report that I quoted was from a unanimous report of the commission.
It will be seen that the commission investigating the type of case of low back pain and investigating specifically the treatment afforded Connorton concluded that the very best of medical attention is afforded this group of cases in the Department of Veterans Affairs and that this treatment is not always successful, but the percentage of successes in the department is as high as in the best treatment institutions in the country.
Further direct questions were asked in the House of Commons on June 8, 1948, page 4906 of Hansard, second column. I believe it is the opinion of the best medical men in the dominion-the report would indicate that this is also the opinion of the commission set up under P.C. 4980-that the treatment services given to veterans by the Department of Veterans Affairs are of a very high quality. I do not feel that from a treatment standpoint there are injustices done in the case of Connorton, and I believe that he, and cases similar to his, have received and will receive the best of treatment without the alleged injustices.
Frank Exton Lennard: I wish to assure the minister that we do not want to hold up the veterans affairs estimates, but I should like to make a suggestion. The final report of the veterans affairs committee has not been made to the house, and possibly will not be made for several days. I think it would be better if the first item was held over until the report is received. We could pass the other items that could be passed and in that way make headway. After the final report of the committee has been received and we have had some time to study it, we can then deal with the first item, possibly in a short time.


Mr. GREGG:: I agree with that.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: I know it is a comfort to the committee to have the minister give this report on these two men. The committee will have noticed, however, that the complaint made by Mr. McClellan was in the words which I read into Hansard, as reported on page 4903, as follows:
What we are complaining about is that our records have been mishandled, or, in real truth.
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falsified, to make it look as if we were not entitled to pensions.
My evidence clearly shows that the charges are true.
The committee was entitled to expect that the minister would adduce evidence in the McClellan case to show that there was no foundation for his complaint, namely, that there had been falsification of the records as far as McClellan was concerned. The minister has said nothing about this serious aspect of the matter and I submit that the committee is entitled to a thorough treatment of that phase of dealing with veterans. I will leave the McClellan case for the time being.
I return now to the Connorton case. The committee will have noticed that in dealing with the Connorton case the real challenge of the material which I placed on Hansard was not met. I think it would be well for me to give a moment or two to that matter. The report presented by the minister is accurate, it is moderately worded, but it does not meet *the challenge. I stated that this young man Connorton was well and strong when he joined the forces.
In order to aid the minister in going still further into this question, which I am sure the committee will want him to do, I should like to ask four questions. First, was Connorton formerly an apprentice machinist who for two years prior to enlistment had been serving with the Vancouver Engineering Works Limited? Second, as such was he engaged daily in heavy lifting work and classified by that company as being well above the average of the employees engaged in that class of heavy lifting work? Third, was he classified by the manager of the Vancouver Engineering Works as a first-class workman, intelligent, cheerful and co-operative, and also as one who had demonstrated that he possessed the qualities of a first-class machinist? Fourth, was he classified by the director of apprenticeship of the province of British Columbia as one who would be a valuable asset to the armed forces at his trade occupation?
If the answers to those questions should prove to be "yes", and if it should be established that there is unchallengeable documentary evidence to prove that the answers should be "yes," then the problem which will confront the minister's department will be to show the committee and the country how it came about that a boy who was eighteen years of age on enlistment and who possessed those qualifications should be turned out of the service in 1946 an almost complete wreck as far as doing the kind of work that he had done before was concerned, and yet was ruled as being the victim of a pre-enlistment disability.

That is the question. We can use technicalities and doctors' terms and all that sort of thing, but the simple fact remains that that boy of eighteen years of age went into the service in apparently perfect physical condition, at least as far as practical considerations were concerned, and he left the service a wreck and yet is reported as suffering from a pre-enlistment disability.
This young man was discharged broken in mind and body. I shall not ask questions on that aspect of the case at present, but would point out that according to the man's own testimony he was suffering on discharge from a prostate gland; he had a bad leg, with muscles tired and locking and the leg aching all the time; he had lost the use of the toes of his left foot after the first spinal fusion; he could not even stand the work of oiling on the Princess Elaine. Oiling is a kind of work that does not require heavy lifting. He also says that after his operation for spinal fusion on November 15, 1945, he wore a body cast and a leg cast until approximately the .middle of March, 1946. After that he wore a Taylor brace until June, 1946, and he never again was able to do anything like the heavy work which he had been able to do
The minister said in his statement that the boy was working on March 2, 1948-the minister will correct me if I have not the exact date-but he does not tell us what the boy was working at. I will wager that the boy was not able to do the heavy machine work that he was doing at the age of eighteen before he enlisted, and I make this general observation: that in view of the amount of money he is receiving he would simply have to work or starve. The minister's statement was vague and general.
The next question I asked was: Did this man's condition result partly from an appendix operation in June 1943? In order to enable the minister to go into this matter more thoroughly may I ask him to prepare and give to the committee at a later date answers to the following questions:
1.	Did Connorton undergo an appendix operation in the service in June, 1943?
2.	Was he given a local anaesthetic for the operation?
3.	Was the anaesthetic administered by a departmental medical intern?
4.	Was a needle inserted in Connorton's spine eight times before the anaesthetic was effective?
5.	Did the man suffer excruciating pain in this anaesthetic operation?

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6. Did the medical intern instruct the nursing sister and an orderly to "pin the man down"?
7.	Was the man fourteen days in bed after this appendix operation?
8.	Did he complain of his back being sore ail that time, and did the departmental doctors inform him he would experience back trouble for about two months, when the condition would "clear up"?
By the way, it is rather unusual after an appendix operation to wait two months before the condition clears up.
9.	Did they say this was the usual experience of men receiving spinal anaesthetics to localize an operation?
10.	Was he given pills to relieve the pain in his back?
11.	Was the man bothered with prostate trouble after this operation, and was he given sulphanilamide drugs, penicillin and electrotherapy treatment for this condition?
12.	Does the man claim that prostate trouble is still with him?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Would the hon. member permit an interruption? I do not question his sincerity in asking the twelve questions, but he will appreciate that the questions he asks refer to an operation conducted in 1943 while the man was within the armed services and under their medical care. The questions relate, I take it, to conversations in the operating room and afterwards. I can assure the committee that it will be impossible for my department, and I doubt whether it will be possible for the defence department, to answer all these questions at this time. I have tried to give the hon. member, as briefly as possible, such information as I have at this time on both cases, and I shall attempt to give him any further information I have. Now that he has put the matter forward, I think that should cover the situation fairly adequately.
While I am on my feet I might refer to one statement he made as to the falsification of documents; I presume he meant army documents. Any evidence there may have been on that question was looked into by the McCann commission, and nothing has been brought to my attention, in the report or otherwise, that would lead me to believe that there was falsification.


John Horne Blackmore: I am glad that the minister has made that statement, because according to the terms of reference of the McCann commission and the press release which was made from Ottawa concerning its activities, I gather that the commission was not appointed to examine the question of the
falsification of the records. The press release dated December 6, 1947, concludes with these words:
The terms of reference call for investigation of adequacy of treatment in D.V.A. hospitals, qualifications and competence of D.V.A. doctors, and the adequacy of pension considerations.
May I submit to the minister-and I do this in all kindliness, not with any desire to criticize him or his department but simply to get at the facts-that the McCann commission was appointed apparently to investigate charges which had been preferred by the member for Acadia and the member for Swift Current in 1947, and those charges had nothing in the world to do with the efficiency of the doctors in the department; so that when the McCann commission by its terms of reference was given the task of investigating the efficiency of the doctors, that was something that was utterly beside the main point at issue which everybody supposed the commission was appointed to investigate.
I shall have a good deal more to say about this matter as the days go by. From what I have been able to gather concerning the McCann commission, the reasons for its appointment, and the way it did its work, as well as the terms of reference to the commission, I have a suspicion that quite a lot of explaining is necessary on the part of a good many people in the department before this house can be satisfied with the McCann commission.
The next question I raised was:
Did Connorton's tragic final condition partly result from his effort to do work for which surgical bungling had unfitted him?
I should like to ask the minister some questions which he might submit to his department on this question. But before I do that may I refer to one thing that he said in his reply a moment ago? He said that all such matters as are called for in the questions which are asked under the last question would have to do with conversations which would take place in hospital and elsewhere. That is true; but the important thing is that Frank W. Connorton has submitted a deposition in which he solemnly declares the facts as called for in each of these questions. Unless the department can show that Frank W. Connorton was falsifying in his deposition it will have to accept Connorton's words as being valid. That would be my general opinion on the matter.
Now for the questions in respect of my ' second question:
1.	After hospitalization, did Connorton join the minesweeper Outard as stoker, November, 1943?
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2.	Did he complain that his back was then still bothering him?
3.	Did he complain that his left leg also began to bother him when doing heavy lifting, the muscles becoming tired and locked?
4.	Does he complain that his leg condition is still with him?
5.	Was he given a one-man board by Doctor Whitelaw in July, 1944, and X-rayed, and subsequently classed as A-l physically fit?
6.	Did he subsequently complain to another departmental doctor, a Doctor Prior, that his spine was still bothering him?
7.	Did Doctor Prior state that he would charge him with "malingering" if he complained again?
8.	Was he also examined by other departmental doctors at the 'Givenchy barracks, Victoria, British Columbia, and did they say there was nothing wrong with him?
Probably the minister will have to say that he has not the information in his department with which to answer these questions, but they are vital. If they suggest the truth, and I am sure they do, then they suggest some pretty serious charges against the men who had to deal with this splendid young man.
The next question I asked was this:
Did Connorton's condition result in any considerable measure from a spinal fusion operation on November 15, 1945, apparently unsuccessful, and subsequent mismanagement on the part of government officials in the army?
I should like to ask several questions to help the minister get the facts concerning that matter for the committee. They are as follows:
1.	Was Connorton examined by Doctor Ross Robertson, neurosurgeon, Shaughnessy hospital, Vancouver, British Columbia, and did that physician allege the man had an immature spine?
This is the first of a series of questions. May I just stop here to point out that if the answer to that question is found to be. yes, then everyone in this house and in the country can see that there has been culpable blundering on the part of the medical men who had to deal with this soldier before Doctor Ross Robertson came to him. I continue with my questions:
2.	Did Doctor Ross Robertson tell the man he would need as remedial treatment a spinal fusion operation to knit the spine?
May I pause here-


The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: Order. The hon. member for Wentworth suggested a short time ago that the item should stand, and that the hon. member who is asking the questions be given an opportunity to forward his questions to the minister. I wonder whether it

would save time if the hon. member would consent to sending his questions to the minister so that he could properly answer them when the committee meets again. If the hon. member would do that, we would save a lot of time.


John Horne Blackmore: I can understand the desirability of sending these questions and having a private answer given so that the country as a whole would not know about these questions.


Frank Exton Lennard: That is not it at all.


John Horne Blackmore: I should like to point out that I have the floor. I want to fight this thing out with the hon. member who just rose and interfered. If this young man can be found to have been the victim of a miscarriage of justice through the various agencies which this parliament has appointed to give such young men justice, then there is only one place where hon. members can weigh that matter, and that is before the high court of parliament. Therefore these questions have to be asked and answered in public so that the people themselves can determine the justice of the treatment of this young man. All I am doing in speaking at this time is taking up the case of this young man. I should like to ask the hon. member who rose a moment ago how he would feel if this man were his son.


Frank Exton Lennard: On a point of privilege, I should like to answer the hon. member who has just spoken. I want him to understand that I am just as much interested in all these cases as he is. I merely rose to correct a false impression on his part. There has been no suggestion in this chamber this morning that the questions should be privately answered. The chairman suggested that the hon. member could send his questions to the minister, who could answer them later, publicly, in another meeting of this committee. That is all I said when I rose. I want the hon. member to understand distinctly that I am just as much interested in these cases as he is, and always have been.


John Horne Blackmore: I apologize to the hon. member immediately and unreservedly.


William Henry Golding: The hon. member has a perfect right to carry on this discussion if he so desires. The only thing I had in mind when I made the suggestion was that it would save some time. We do not want to interfere with the hon. member.


John Horne Blackmore: I appreciate that. I am endeavouring to do only what I conceive to be my duty in the circumstances.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.

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The committee resumed at three o'clock.


John Horne Blackmore: Before the committee took recess for lunch, I was asking several questions bearing upon the question I asked on June 8: Did the condition of Connorton result in any considerable measure from a spinal fusion operation on November 15, 1945, apparently unsuccessful, and subsequent mismanagement on the part of government officials in the army? I asked two questions. May I ask several more:
3.	Was Connorton given a spinal fusion operation on November 15, 1945?
4.	Did the man lose the use of his toes in the left leg as a result of this operation?
5.	Has subsequent remedial treatment for the toes proved ineffective?
6.	Was he subsequently examined in the Shaughnessy hospital, Vancouver, British Columbia by the neurosurgeons, Doctors Boucher, Naden, Starr, Thompson and Black?
7.	Did these neurosurgeons turn him over to Doctor Stanley, departmental psychiatrist, and did Stanley state that there was nothing wrong with the man except in his imagination?
8.	Was the man then discharged from the Shaughnessy hospital without pension for his condition, and did he accept employment as a fireman in the engine room of the CT.R. steamer Princess Elaine?
9.	Was he compelled to give up this employment after two weeks on account of his back giving out?
I submit, Mr. Chairman, that when those questions are answered, the answers will have an important bearing on the question whether or not this young man's ills are the result of military service. I asked one more question on June 8. It was this:
Was his misfortune partly the result of a second unsuccessful spinal fusion operation on or about September 18, 1946?
I have three questions to ask that will help the minister in his investigations pertaining to that question. They are as follows:
1.	Was Connorton again admitted to Shaughnessy hospital on September 18, 1946, and subsequently given an exploratory operation by opening up the spine?
2.	Was he in consequence given a second spinal fusion operation? If so, when?
3.	Has the man stated he cannot face the operating table again because of the suffering he has undergone during those two operations and because his powers of resistance are now undermined?
I believe, Mr. Chairman, that when the minister finishes answering those questions, in so far as the information will enable him to answer them, he will be ready to agree with
me-and I believe I am only one of the total membership of this committee who has this opinion-that this man is certainly suffering as a result of military service and not as a result of a pre-enlistment disability.
I should like to ask the minister one or two more questions which do not bear particularly on the questions I raised on June 8. The first one of these has to do with Connorton.
I should like to ask the minister to conduot a careful examination into the whole situation which is involved in this question and then report to the committee all the details of evidence and considerations upon which the Canadian pension commission, after studying the case of Frank W. Connorton, concluded "that this-the condition of prespondylolisthesis-is of pre-enlistment origin", as stated in paragraph 1 of their decision of May 10, 1947, dated at Ottawa.
Then I wish to ask a question on the case of another man who was under review by the McCann commission, whose case somewhat resembles the Connorton case. I refer to Stanley L. Walsh, V-86097. In this case, after considerable correspondence had taken place, Brigadier J. L. Melville wrote a lettei to Walter H. Kirchner, dated September _2, 1947, in which he used the following words in paragraph 2:
. . the condition under review is partly due to a constitutional defect and under the circumstances must be considered as of pre-enlistment origin . . .
I should like to have all the details of the evidence and considerations upon which the Canadian pension commission arrived at that decision concerning Stanley L. Walsh. ^
There is another matter which I desire to mention at the present time. On June 8 I had some rather harsh things to say concerning psychiatrists. I wish to ask several questions on the matter of psychiatrists and to have the minister get the answers and inform the committee and the house in detail with respect to these gentlemen. The questions are as follows:
1.	Has a psychiatrist in such a position as,
say psychiatrist to Shaughnessy hospital, power to destroy utterly a veteran's chance for pension by simply reporting "this man is definitely neurotic"?	_
2.	Can a key psychiatrist free the commission from the responsibility of furnishing either the applicant or his representative with a summary of evidence?
3.	Does this arrangement give the psychiatrists a stranglehold upon the medical profession?
4 (a). In order for the psychiatrist to exercise over the veteran such fearful power as is

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indicated in questions 2 and 3, is it necessary merely for the psychiatrist to label the veteran a "psychotic"?
(b). If a psychiatrist labels a man as having "emotional instability", will that fact also deprive the man of pension rights?
5.	Do psychiatrists use what is called the pentothal test?
6.	What is the nature of this test?
7.	Do psychiatrists use what is called the truth serum test?
8.	Is there any difference between the pentothal and the truth serum test?
9.	If so, what?
10.	Does the patient under the truth serum test go into a sort of trance, a state somewhat resembling hypnosis?
11.	While the patient is in that state, can the psychiatrist make the patient answer questions according to the way they are framed, thereby causing the patient to say almost anything he, the psychiatrist, may desire the patient to say?
12.	Can the answers of the patient obtained in such a trance be used to defraud the veteran patient of his rights to pension and proper treatment?
13.	Was this very technique employed against certain Hong Kong veterans so to deprive them? For instance, were Hong Kong men who survived the terrible tortures and privations of Japanese prison camps told in their examinations that they were not suffering from those most harrowing experiences but that they were suppressing childhood fantasies and fears?
14.	Did Doctor J. P. S. Cathcart, while in office as a sort of official psychiatrist for the Department of Veterans Affairs, publish the following statement?
Popular belief to the contrary, mental diseases are not common hazards of war even for men in the field. If a man is mentally sound on entering the army, navy or air force he runs no greater risk of having his faculties upset than if he continued in civilian life.
Did he declare the belief that wartime service brings mental upset is unfounded and arises from ignorance fostered by ill-advised propaganda?
15.	Did the Department of Veterans Affairs for a time base the treatment of veterans policy upon the principle laid down in that pronouncement, namely, that psychosis or neurosis was automatically a pre-enlistment disability?
16.	If so, for how long a period and between what dates was this principle used as the basis for departmental treatment of veterans?
17.	If not, when and by what pronouncement was the principle and the policy announced in Cathcart's statement changed?

18.	How many veterans' cases were disposed of by the department on the basis of pre-enlistment neurotic or psychotic disability during the period throughout which the Cathcart principle was in use by the department?
Now, Mr. Chairman, I am afraid 'that when these questions are all accurately answered, and members of this house are able to draw their conclusions as to what sort of treatment our veterans have received at the hands of psychiatrists, there will be something like a sensation in the house and throughout the country.
I have just this general comment to make before leaving this aspect of my questioning of the minister. First, the evidence I have indicates too strongly that psychiatrists attached to the Canadian veterans affairs department are employed occasionally to deprive a deserving veteran of the financial reimbursement to which he is legally entitled. Second, certain of these psychiatrists are of the type exemplified by General Brock Chisholm, a man who gave the definite impression that he was distinctly materialistic, if not crude, sordid or even sadistic in his outlook upon human life. And, third, such so-called psychiatrists, men who should be called rather pseudopsychiatrists, are not to be named in the same breath with those noble psychiatric healers who in Britain, the United States, Australia and other lands are, with Christlike devotion to spiritual values, salvaging wounded souls stricken by the desecrating hand of war.
When I spoke on June 8 I made remarks which had general application to psychiatrists throughout the country who were employed by the veterans department. I know that the true psychiatrists, the men who are genuine healers, can be a blessing to the mentally stricken, and these men wherever they are in Canada will readily pardon me for any reflection upon them which may have been implied, because they will have readily recognized that some of the things which have been done by so-called psychiatrists in this country have brought into disrepute the whole class of psychiatrists. They will recognize immediately also that it is time something was done to rid the country of the pseudo-psychiatrists who apparently are employed by the veterans affairs department as agents to deprive men of their rights rather than to heal them of their mental ills.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Mr. Chairman, during the session it has been my opportunity since January to provide members of the house with a chance to consult with my officers on any individual cases regarding whom complaints have been laid, by themselves or by somebody in their constituency or somebody they knew.

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I would have been very happy if the hon. member for Lethbridge had brought these cases to my attention at any time. I do not complain of the fact that he has brought individual cases before this committee, nor do I mind the work entailed by the large number of questions he has placed on the record this afternoon. I will assure him now in the first place that many of these questions are of the kind that a member of parliament would like to ask of my officials across a desk, or to ask me if I could give the answer orally. If it is his desire to sit in with any of my officials, who are quite familiar with all these cases, I shall be glad to furnish that opportunity.
I would point out that many of the questions are based of course on the service period of the veteran. As the committee knows, we inherit the documents pertaining to that service. We have no authority to go back into army service and seek witnesses who happened to serve at that time, but we will undertake, if he wishes, to make that information available to him personally, and, if that is not satisfactory, then to the best of our ability we will attempt to answer questions appropriate to my department and submit them to the committee.
Having made that statement, and in conformity with the request of the hon. member for Wentworth, I am prepared to permit this item to stand for the time being, especially in view of the fact that the final report of the veterans affairs committee has not been submitted. Before doing so, however, I shall make an explanatory statement regarding item 532.
This vote in 1948-49 provides $633,480 for expenditures of the war service records division which in previous fiscal years were provided for through the Department of National Defence. If it were not for the responsibility for the operation of the war service records division by the Department of Veterans Affairs, the moneys provided in this vote for the year 1948-49 would show a decrease as compared with 1947-48. I wish just to make that explanation. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, we might take up the next item, No. 533.
Item stands.
533. District administration, $3,805,120.


Thomas Langton Church: There is a district office at 55 York street, Toronto, where tens of thousands of cases are handled. I understand that instead of making it necessary to write to Ottawa the district principle is to be applied, so that if anyone has a complaint regarding a pension or some other payment-and after the meetings of the pension committee in the last several years, there are many kinds of extra allowances and other payments-that
person could get speedy adjustment of his claim at district offices. Is my understanding in that respect the correct one?
I see hundreds of people coming out of that building at closing time. Many of these cases come to my attention, particularly in the summer months when some of the other members may be away. Has the district officer and his staff in the building at 55 York street, next to the Royal York hotel, power to deal with a case, or must such case be referred to Ottawa before a decision can be given? It is pointed out in some cases that the regulations are not broad enough to permit the district office to act. This condition may have been changed since the meeting of the committee last session.
If it is necessary to get in touch with Ottawa it would cause a great deal of delay. Some of the soldiers and their families have no houses. That is one of their complaints, among others.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I am glad the hon. member has brought this point to my attention, because it has been the aim of the deputy minister to do just what he has suggested, namely, in so far as possible to obtain decentralization of authority. Only last Friday I had the pleasure of visiting all the offices in the Toronto region and discussing with the administrator and the members of his staff the very point my hon. friend has mentioned.
I am assured that at the present time there are very few bottlenecks.


Thomas Langton Church: Would the minister also consider the matter of telephone service in Toronto government offices? To my mind the telephone service is all wrong, because one cannot find the right number in the telephone book. What I say applies to every department of the public service in the Toronto district. One goes to one building only to find that the office has been moved to some other building. Surely a large business such as one finds at 55 York street, one which runs into an expenditure of many millions of dollars in pensions and allowances, should have a modern telephone system such as would be found in Eaton's or Simpson's stores. Sometimes I have had to spend half a day walking from one building to another before I reached the right spot. Finally I am directed to go to 465 Bay street, where the hon. member for Peel used to have his law office.


Mr. GRAYDON:: And you, too.


Thomas Langton Church: A good deal of time is wasted travelling around because one cannot find the correct telephone number. An office for soldiers has now been opened in the city hall, where complaints can also be made.
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Sometimes I am asked, "How can one find the number, or find the new office, because the number in the telephone book is not the correct one?"
This causes a serious inconvenience. The office at 55 York street serves several counties. Some of these soldiers and their families come to the city on Saturdays and find that the offices are closed. I am not complaining about offices closing on Saturday-far from it; but surely a skeleton staff could be left which could take complaints and thereby save the necessity of these people returning on another day. They cannot afford to make these trips; furthermore, the trains are congested. I believe if the minister would consider my suggestion much time might be saved. In Toronto these departments are moving every day, and the result is that the telephone numbers are not correct. We do not know where to find the different departments. Will the minister consider making the necessary change?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I believe I can understand how this may have happened. It has been our attempt so far as possible to concentrate all the activities in the Toronto region under one roof. The Veterans' Land Act administration was moved to that building within the last month or two. I can understand how in some instances the new location might not match up with that given in the telephone directory. I can assure the hon. member this condition will be taken care of.
As to the matter of availability on Saturdays, let me say that our offices are kept open until one o'clock Saturday afternoon, in Toronto and elsewhere.


Jean-François Pouliot: I want to tell the minister that, up to now, I am satisfied. I consider his appointment a great improvement in the Department of Veterans Affairs. I shall not add further praise, because too much praise sometimes brings trouble.
I have only one question to ask. A friend of mine had a son in the army. The son died. He was a father, and the grandfather has taken charge of the children. In virtue of the legislation about to be passed, will there be some increase in the pension payable to the grandchildren?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If the veteran father was a pensioner over 50 per cent, the children would be in receipt of pension as orphans.


Jean-François Pouliot: How much more will they receive? [DOT]


Milton Fowler Gregg: Their new pension will be increased by 25 per cent.


Mr. MILLER:: There is a certain matter about which I have spoken to the minister on several occasions since his appointment. He has promised to look into it, and I believe he has now done so. Today I am asking him to review the situation so that we may know exactly where his department stands in the matter. I refer to the abandoned hospital at Kirkfield Park in the constituency of Portage la Prairie, outside of Winnipeg.
If my figures are correct, and if my memory serves me aright, when the project was started the government spent about a quarter of a million dollars, perhaps more, in construction. At the present time all one sees is some substantial foundations and rough buildings. Two or three weeks ago the minister and his parliamentary assistant looked over the situation. I have not yet received a report, although I have spoken to the minister on several occasions and one other hon. member has discussed the matter in the house several times. Either the original plan to construct this hospital was a mistake, or the abandonment of the hospital was a mistake. That has never been made clear in this house.
It seems to me that if the government do not intend to proceed with the construction and use of these buildings, some effort should be made to find somebody willing to make use of what has been constructed. In view of the large expenditure of money I think the committee is entitled to an explanation from the minister. Was it a mistake to plan to construct this hospital? Was it a mistake to abandon construction? What is intended to be done with these buildings and foundations which are lying there as a not very pleasant reminder of a large expenditure of money and the use of scarce building materials?


Milton Fowler Gregg: During a recent visit to Winnipeg with my officials I visited the site of the Kirkfield Park health and occupational centre, as it was intended to be. In October 1945 the wartime committee on hospitalization approved this project, which would have comprised 200 beds at an estimated cost of $700,000. At that time there was a scarcity of hospital beds in Winnipeg and patients were crowded at the Deer Lodge hospital. Moreover, the type of treatment which would have been afforded in this centre would have been of inestimable value for wounded veterans under convalescent treatment here and those coming back from overseas.
My hon. friend has asked whether it was sound reasoning to decide to construct this hospital. He knows more about the circumstances than I do. It was the opinion of those who were responsible then that it was sound

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to go forward to provide this accommodation quickly as a health and occupational centre. If it could have been completed at the time it was expected to be finished, it would have served a most useful and important function in the treatment of wounded veterans. That was in 1945. However, factors have arisen which were not predictable at the time which makes the completion of this accommodation at the present time quite doubtful.
Added accommodation was obtained at Brandon military hospital to relieve the congestion at Deer Lodge. Then there were unforeseen delays in construction, and the project was discontinued in July, 1947. At that time relatively little progress had been made. Some $313,000 had been expended, and the completion of the original idea would have called for the expenditure of approximately S600,000 more.
I think it will answer my hon. friend's question if I say that in the opinion of my department it is not considered sound to recommend the completion of the hospital along the lines of the original idea. Perhaps it would answer his last question if I told him that we are actively exploring the possibility of these buildings being used, either by other federal departments or by other public bodies. I shall be able to give a more clear-cut idea of that in the near future.


Calvert Charlton Miller: At the time construction of the building to which I have referred was begun, the department saw fit to close a similar smaller institution at Portage la Prairie. That institution was most favourably located and it was doing good work along these lines. I should like the minister to explain why such a small undertaking as the one at Portage la Prairie would be abandoned when the department was planning for a $600,000 building at the other end of the district. The announcement was made that the Portage la Prairie hospital was being abandoned on the ground that it was not needed, because there were such a small number of beds that were occupied. The hospital at Portage la Prairie was in a much more beautiful location than the other monstrosity on Portage avenue. This undertaking, to cost $600,000, was started and then abandoned. It seems to me that the department must have been working both ends against the middle when they said that they could not use the beds in a small hospital and then started a new hospital at an estimated cost of $600,000. I think my constituents, this committee and the members of the house are entitled to know why the small hospital at Portage la Prairie was closed.


Milton Fowler Gregg: The small hospital at Portage la Prairie was one of some twenty-five hospitals which were part of the camps or other war establishments of the active service forces. It was not considered suitable as a hospital and was discontinued after approximately a year and a half of occupation.


George Randolph Pearkes: In what cities are the district administration offices located?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Halifax, Charlottetown,
Saint John, Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Toronto, North Bay, Hamilton, London, Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, with a sub-office at Victoria.


George Randolph Pearkes: Are the headquarters of the different branches located in those same centres? For instance, would the headquarters of the Veterans' Land Act be located in all those centres?


Milton Fowler Gregg: The Veterans' Land Act offices are being consolidated, as quickly as we can do it, with the regional offices.


George Randolph Pearkes: Are the regional offices and the district offices the same?


Milton Fowler Gregg: We are getting them either under the district office or the regional office as quickly as we can.


George Randolph Pearkes: Are they in the same places?


Milton Fowler Gregg: It will be quite a long time before we can bring all the regional offices in, because they are still in the transitional period and performing local services. But just as soon as possible they will be brought in.


George Randolph Pearkes: Will the minister indicate at what points regional offices are located where district offices are not?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I shall be glad to give my hon. friend a complete list.


George Randolph Pearkes: Is the army benevolent fund being administered through any of the district offices?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No. The army benevolent fund is administered by a semi-autonomous board which includes representatives of the Canadian Legion and of the council of the Canadian veterans association, as well as representatives geographically across Canada. They report to the government through the Minister of Veterans Affairs. During their period of organization, under the chairmanship of the late General Browne, cases of need were coming to the notice of our division right
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across Canada which it would have been appropriate for the benevolent fund to look after if the organization had been completed, and during that interim period the board asked veterans affairs officers to administer the limited amount of funds in the various regions as a temporary expedient.


George Randolph Pearkes: That period has now
passed?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Practically, yes.


George Randolph Pearkes: I know' that representations have been made to the minister by branches of the Legion on Vancouver island asking that a separate district be established in the southern portion of the island. Has consideration been given to those representations and a decision reached?


Milton Fowler Gregg: We have been considering representations, but have not reached a decision. It did not appear to me that the veterans were not unanimous.


George Randolph Pearkes: The decision is unfavourable?


Milton Fowler Gregg: We have not reached a decision.


George Randolph Pearkes: I have another question which I should have asked under the previous item. How many copies of the departmental magazine, Veterans Affairs, are issued to the various districts? If the minister has not the number by districts, can he tell me the total number of copies distributed, and the cost of publishing the magazine?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I shall be glad to get that information and give it later in the day.


George Randolph Pearkes: Perhaps we might have it when we come back to the first item.
Mr. MaoNICOL: Last session I brought before the department a matter which since that time has been under discussion with the Toronto office. I was one of those-there were not very many of us in the house-who from the beginning advocated that the South African war veteran should be given consideration under the War Veterans Allowance Act. After that idea had been promoted in the house for a few years the minister's predecessor very generously brought the matter up in the house and it was provided that the South African war veteran should receive the benefit of the act.
Last year in the house I brought up the case of a South African war veteran whom I have known for many years. I will quote what I said in the house on July 16, 1947, as reported at page 5794 of Hansard:
What is the position of the South African veterans? I know a man who is married. His

wife has a small income. He himself has no income. Would he be entitled to a war veterans' allowance?
Mr. Mackenzie:	If he was domiciled in
Canada before he volunteered for service.
Mr. MacNieol: He was born here.
Mr. Mackenzie: It is not necessary to be born here; if he was domiciled here, if living here, if his home was here before he went overseas to South Africa, then he would be entitled to the war veterans allowance under the same rate.	_
Mr. MaaNicol:	The veteran is entitled to
war veterans allowance?
Mr. Mackenzie:	Yes: I think there are four
hundred of them receiving allowances.
On the following day I sent to the veteran a copy of Hansard containing the minister's reply. Nothing came of it for quite some time and then, on December 11,1 wrote to the minister's predecessor and enclosed an affidavit which had been given to me by the war veteran. I do not want to give his name but will refer to him by the letter "W". I said in my letter to the previous minister:
I wonder if you would have one of your secretaries place in your hands the Hansard record of July 16, 1947, referring to my questions and your answ'ers in connection with the case of the South African veteran, Mr. W. of Toronto.
Mr. W. came to see me just before I came down to Ottawa and brought the enclosed affidavit re his ease.
That is the affidavit I mentioned a moment ago.
I know Mr. W. intimately and am familiar with the serious condition of his health and his inability to work at all on his doctor's orders. As stated in the house, he is wholly dependent on his wife for w'hatever finances he requires. Mrs. W. has a small income, scarcely enough to maintain herself and provide for the maintenance of her small property.
I found it necessary to write the present minister after he came into office-and in passing I wrant to congratulate him upon how well he is taking care of his department. As I have already said, the applause he received in Toronto last Saturday is evidence of the popular esteem in which he is held. I will now read a paragraph of the letter I wrote to the present minister about this case, and I am glad to say that it is the only one I shall bring up on his estimates. In my letter to the minister of February 2. 1948, I said:
Personally, I cannot understand this at all. Here is a man now beyond sixty-five years of age who, in his youth and strong young manhood, offered himself in defence of the empire for service in South Africa. The long marches in that hot climate, so hot in the daytime and so cold at night, undermined his health. During all his life, he has not had the physical strength that he should have had, and now, late in life he finds it necessary to make application for war veterans allowance or pension.
The reason for not granting Mr. W. a pension seems to be that his wife owns a property. I

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know the property well. It is a duplex. Well, everyone knows that duplexes are next to impossible to sell.
If they were compelled to sell I doubt whether they would get $5,000 for it.
The report sent in about the income of the family gives the income much higher than it really is. Apparently the Toronto office has sent down an erroneous statement on the income of that family. I know it is small. I know the family well. At the present time this noted soldier is in a serious condition. Last Saturday, as I walked down my home city street, I saw him being lifted out of a motor car and carried into his home. I said, "Why, are you not improving?" He said, "I have been in the hospital. They wanted to take off my leg. I cannot stand on the leg, it is in such a state." Surely there is something wrong somewhere.
Here is a man who was in the full strength of his youth. He went into the South African campaign, which everyone who was there knows was not the best kind of campaign for anybody, especially for the health of those who came from a northern climate such as ours. He came back, and all his lifetime he has suffered from disabilities incurred in that campaign. But he never applied for a pension at anyr time. His record was good. He marched and fought all the way from Cape Town to where the war ended at Bloemfontein or Pretoria. To me it is a shocking shame that he who is penniless himself, who has not a farthing, has to ask his wife for a car ticket if he wants to go downtown. This country never intended that anything like that should happen. He is not asking for the full amount of the war veterans allowance. He would be satisfied with half the amount, because his wife has a very small income. It is so small that I would not call it an income at all. It would not compare for a moment with the ordinary person's income. She and her home can hardly exist on it. That is the state in which he finds himself.
Last year the previous minister said that this man was entitled to the war veterans allowance. What happened after that? Who told the minister that he was not entitled to the allowance? The present minister has been very good. I am one of those who like to support him. I ask him to take this case into consideration and give this noted soldier a square deal. He has not had it. No soldier has a square deal who is treated as this man has been treated. Parliament does not want any soldier to be treated in that way.
This man is penniless. Why should he have to ask his wife for a car ticket? He cannot work. The minister has a copy of the affidavit
on file. I will send him another copy of it. His doctors, and the others who have been associated with him, say that he must not do anything because his heart is bad. I said a moment ago that when I saw him he had to be carried out of the car into his home. If that is not a disability I do not know what a disability is.
I will leave the case with the minister. I am not going to ask him to refer to it at the moment. I have urged the case as strongly as I can. I have known this veteran for twenty-five years. I know that he has not earned anything, because he has not been able to work. He has been only an encumbrance to his wife. Why should he not have the war veterans allowance for himself personally?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I assure my hon. friend that I shall be only too glad to look into the case. I would not want to make a statement on it now, but I shall see that it is looked into, particularly in the light of the amendments that have been passed by the house this year, to see if by any chance that should change the situation.


Thomas Langton Church: I should like to ask the minister one more question in connection with item 533, district administration, which is a million andi a half less than it was last year. I do not like to delay the passage of this item, but I should like to refer to 55 York street. I have seen women and small children on the streetcar going dowm to 55 York street to try to get some document executed which may have to come to Ottawa. They have difficulty finding the place and getting the proper assistance.
Some people get into minor trouble and are summoned before a magistrate. When I asked this question before, two or three members of the bar association, of which I am a member, said that they were looking after it. On reading the newspapers in the Toronto district I find that that is not so. Many of these young people get into minor trouble over the week end in Toronto and need help. This is an important factor because the department has a very large building with several hundred employees. I admit that this item calls for an expenditure of $1,563,000 less than last year. No doubt a large number of cases have been settled since the opening of the new Sunny-brook hospital, and other units across the country, which will contribute to lessening the item.
Is there a place in Toronto to which these people can go and have these documents issued? Some of them come down to arrange for bringing a relative out from the old country, or a soldier may be in the hospital. They
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are directed to go to an immigration office or tc somebody else. In weather such as we shall have in the next three months it is pretty difficult to bring little children with them. They cannot leave them at home. They have to bring them with them on the streetcar. I should think that some officer should be provided to Look after them. They have to take an elevator away up to the top of the building. The ground floor is the logical place for these offices-or close to the ground floor, I should think, because it is very difficult to find the place. The federal offices telephone system is practically obsolete. It is not up to date. Wrong numbers and wrong buildings are given, and so forth.
I do not like to see young people appearing before magistrates as they do in these days. So far as I know, some of them are fine young soldiers. A great number of them are soldiers. In these minor cases I believe the time has come when some senior officer should be provided to give assistance in the Toronto district. When a young soldier is charged, the parents should be notified. I have had a bill before the House of Commons for the last three or four years requiring the parents to be notified before imprisonment or before the case is heard. Some of these young people come from the west and the east. Some are just looking for work, and they get into some minor trouble. They are just sent down, and their parents are not even notified. Money is being spent at 55 York street, and efficient work is being done there. I appreciate the good work being done there; it is valuable work; it is money well spent, but we should have some organization in the large cities to take care of these people to whom I refer because some of them have never been in trouble before. A large number of them are first offenders. In my opinion, a legal officer should be provided who could proceed to the police court in the morning to assist these young people. Some of the Christian churches have a representative in the police court. The time has come when something should be done. Some of these people cannot pay a fine. I tried to get the law of England, the Summary Offenders Act, brought in here to give them time to pay, both soldiers and civilians. In Britain they have thus closed half the prisons. When I look at the reports of the provincial and federal prisons, the Attorney General of Canada's institutions, I find that few of these young people are getting in there. I believe that if they have a proper defence the magistrate would take a different view of the case. These people have not even the right to communicate with their parents or their guardians to tell

them what has happened. Will the minister look into the three matters I have brought to his attention?
'Mr. GREGG: I shall be glad to look into the points raised by my hon. friend. In all our offices we have a counselling service where a veteran can get advice and find out where things are. If he wants to have an oath completed he can get it done at our offices. I must admit quite frankly that if he or she should get into trouble over the week-end and he or she is a citizen they will probably have to take care of it the same as any other citizen. On any of the things affecting their service our officers are only too glad to provide any assistance they can for any of the minor difficulties of life.


Mr. MATTHEWS (Brandon):: A few
minutes ago the minister made reference to the small hospital operated in Brandon by his department. It was a former military hospital, and was then taken over by the Department of Veterans Affairs. It is now under the control or the direction of the sanitarium board of Manitoba. I think it is only fair to say on behalf of his officers that that hospital, in the opinion of those who know more about it than I do, was very efficiently operated during the time that it was under the Department of Veterans Affairs, and filled a large place in western Manitoba. I believe the words I have spoken in regard to the minister's department hold equally' true with regard to the sanitarium board. I just want to express my word of appreciation for what has been done by' the staff and the department in that connection.


Mr. FRASER:: A moment ago the minister said these district officers would take the oath of a veteran. Will they also take the oath of a war veteran's widow?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They would do that?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And will they instruct her how to make out the application for the war widows' allowance?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes. They do it every day'.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
534. Rehabilitation services,
Mr. McKAY:: There seems to be confusion between "rehabilitation services" and "benefits". I notice that item 553 definitely refers to benefits. I presume that in that item student veteran benefits will be included. Can the minister give us a breakdown of the amounts that are spent on the various types of

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rehabilitation services? I refer particularly to page 291 of the estimates, which gives a breakdown of some of these services, and where temporary assistance is referred to. I should like to know what that temporary assistance refers to, because it amounts to S3,377,000.	Can the minister indicate just
where we stand on the difference between "services" and "benefits"?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Is the hon. member referring to the breakdown on page 291?


Eric Bowness McKay: Yes.


Milton Fowler Gregg: With the stress changing from j'ear to year, by the very nature of things we have within the department the necessity of having on our staff perhaps too many temporary employees who know they are temporary. When the work discontinues, our department attempts to do what it can to help them find their most useful sphere in other walks of life. I think that would account for the temporary employees there and perhaps under some other headings as we come to them.


Mr. GREEN:: Can the minister tell us what facilities are available for giving training to veterans of	the	first	war	who are out	ofemployment but who could be rehabilitated? I know that problem is worrying his own officials in Vancouver. Perhaps it is one of the most important problems with regard to veterans of	the	first	war	in every part	ofCanada. My understanding is that at the present time there is no statutory provision under which these men can be helped by way of training.	Yet	there	is a	great work to	bedone there.	As	the	minister knows, it	is
difficult for a veteran fifty years of age to get a job. Yet I understand from the minister's own officials that if these men are given certain types of training, it is possible to place them in positions which may well be permanent. I believe there is a real job to be done there. I should like to know whether the department is tackling it; and if so, in what way.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes, we are tackling it. It has its difficulties, as the committee will realize. The average age is fifty-nine for world war I. At that age it is difficult for new tricks to be learned.


Howard Charles Green: Of course many are younger than that.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes, many are under that age. We have explored the situation fully and are doing so with the Department of Labour. In these courses which are being conducted by the Department of Labour with
the provinces, every effort is being made, with regard to these older veterans, to overlook any age limit that may exist. Down on my own coast I know of some cases in which courses in fishing are being given. I must admit that it is not widespread. But in the special work that was started in 1946 under Mr. Philpotts, the department is exploring the opportunities for employment on behalf of those of world war I who have not any special skills. I am glad to report that my department has co-operated in it in some small way. A special drive, if you like, has been put on to make more clear to the public the role of the corps of commissionaires which is composed of carefully chosen men of integrity and discipline right across Canada, in their units, available for positions of trust. That campaign has turned out, I am glad to say, auxiliary opportunities for work that does not normally come within the sphere of the men of the corps of commissionaires. I can assure my hon. friend that there is no phase of the work to which we are giving more attention that the one he mentions; and we shall continue to give it attention.


Edward George McCullough: I was about to rise to bring up the question which the hon. member has just asked the minister. I am happy to hear what the minister has had to say in this regard. I realize that for twenty-five years this has been a problem; cases have been brought to my attention in which veterans of the first world war have failed to find employment. I think the program must go farther than merely training veterans who have not employment. Sometimes we find veterans who perhaps have been active in the timber industry, and who, for reasons of health, must refrain from such an active life. They could get work as forest rangers or fire patrol workers. I hope the minister will, as he says, give serious attention to this matter, because a great many of our old veterans have not been rehabilitated.
It has been brought to my attention that on the "medical" of some of these old veterans would appear some such comment as "allergic to work." Unless all those veterans could be brought before the departmental officials, given an opportunity of work and placed in certain employment, it is hard to know just whether or not they would undertake such employment if it was given to them.


Mr. SKEY:: May I ask the minister if he would like to discuss student veterans under this item, or should we wait until we reach a later one?


Milton Fowler Gregg: It will be quite all right under this one.
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Lawrence Wilton Skey: Have the minister's officials any figures on the number of students who have started university courses and who have had to discontinue them without graduating?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Surveys have been made on that point. The last survey was conducted just recently. I remember quite clearly that, out of the 53,000 across Canada who had up to that point gone into universities, approximately 400 had discontinued. Of those, it was indicated in this statistical return that less than one hundred had discontinued owing to shortage of money on which to live. As a matter of fact, I am assured that not more than twenty-five were within that category.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: When was this return prepared?


Milton Fowler Gregg: During this session, since the first of this year.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: Do the statistics say there are less than twenty-five students who were forced to discontinue for financial reasons?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: Not twenty-five per cent?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No, twenty-five.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: Twenty-five single cases?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Where lack of money was the prime cause of their withdrawal.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: That is not in accordance with some information which I have here. For instance, in March of this year, when the University of Toronto students came to call on the minister, they reported that seven out of fifty-eight girls taking courses at one college would have to discontinue, and that thirty-five out of three hundred students at St. Michael's college would be forced to discontinue, in both instances for financial reasons. At that time the department said there had been only sixty-five withdrawals across Canada for financial reasons. That was in March. The minister's department said then there had been sixty-five withdrawals, and we are told now that there are only twenty-five. Yet it is reported by the students' association that there are at least forty-two in addition to the sixty-five of whom the minister has spoken. This strikes me as poor economy and a poor investment for the government to authorize university training and then allow these students to get into a financial position where they are unable to continue that training. Perhaps, after a year or two or even three years, they find themselves in this situation. It is most unfortunate that their whole original investment should be lost, as it can be lost in these cases.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I remember distinctly the delegation that visited me from Toronto university and the prophecies and fears that were expressed by that delegation, as indicated by the hon. member and in consequence of which I checked back on the sixty-five figure. I checked back through the universities and I asked: Are those all leaving or have they all left owing entirely to the shortage of money factor? The answer that came back to me, as submitted to the parliamentary committee, was that those who left owing entirely to lack of money numbered twenty-five. I can assure my hon. friend that the fears expressed by that delegation-and I am glad to say this-have not materialized. I checked on that the other night in Toronto with their own advisory officers and learned that nothing like that had taken place.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: It is interesting to hear that, and I thank the minister for the information. But when he says "owing entirely to financial reasons", I would call his attention to something that appeared in Toronto Varsity, a statement made by the president of their veterans' association:
One of the great obstacles in achieving equity has been that the veterans themselves are overly modest and loath to display their financial shortcomings even to D.V.A.
So that the qualification "owing entirely to financial reasons" might be taken perhaps with a grain of salt. One further question on the subject, having to do with ceilings on students' wages. Is there a $75 ceiling on students' outside earnings?


Milton Fowler Gregg: For those at university and under vocational training, what was formerly called the $75 ceiling for the veteran or for the veteran's wife has been removed as from June 1 of this year.


Howard Charles Green: I understand that there is some doubt as to law students. In British Columbia, during the summer, they go into law offices, and one of them told me two or three weeks ago that it looked as though the removal of the ceiling did not apply in those cases. My understanding of the minister's intention was that the ceiling was to be removed entirely, and I think that if the change is being interpreted in this narrow way, in the case of law students and perhaps in the case of other students who are going into offices in their summer vacations, there should be some revision in the methods of the department.


Milton Fowler Gregg: That has been brought up recently. As regards students leaving the cloistered halls and going into hard-boiled

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legal offices for training only and for no other purpose, there is no question about continuation, but there are some complications which we are ironing out and I am sure we shall be able to straighten them out satisfactorily.


Howard Charles Green: But until the student has been called to the bar, he remains in training, and my submission is that, until he is called, the ceiling should be removed. I do not know what justification the department can have for putting on a ceiling in this case. These boys are probably not making much money out of the law firms for what work they are doing. It is unfortunate that they should be subject to the ceiling.


Milton Fowler Gregg: We are attempting to get an answer to that, though in some cases they are doing as much for the firm as the junior partner.


Howard Charles Green: Has the department given consideration to an increase in the allowances paid to university students? Some months ago there was a small increase for married students, and then some months later the ceilings were removed, at least in part, but there was never any increase for the single students. I believe they are still getting S60 a month, but the cost of living is going up all the time, particularly the cost of foodstuffs. These young men and women are using up their reserves more and more, and many of them are getting in a worse position all the time. I suggest to the minister that it is worthwhile granting an increase now, in view of the increase in the cost of living. Most of the students will have only a year or two to go, and it does seem a shame to inconvenience them during their final years when a small increase in the allowance might make things so much easier for them. It might mean the difference between success and failure.


Milton Fowler Gregg: In the parliamentary committee I reported my views on this question, and as we shall have an opportunity of discussing the report when the chairman brings in his final submission, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to forestall the report of the committee on that point. I shall be glad to discuss the question later.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: May I add my voice to that of the hon. member for Vancouver South by putting forward just this one thought: that although students in certain courses of training at the university may have a considerable amount of spare time, there are those in medicine, science and engineering who have practically no spare time; they are exhausted after their day's work because their whole
schedule is taken up from nine o'clock in the morning until five or six o'clock at night. They have not an opportunity to increase their earnings in the same way as some of their friends.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
535. Treatment services, $38,402,200.
Milton Fowler Gregg: May I at this point answer the question asked a short time ago by the hon. member for Nanaimo. The publication Veterans Affairs is published twice monthly at an annual cost of $10,000, or about $400 an issue. The total circulation of the publication is 12,000 copies, distributed as follows: Members of the House of Commons and the Senate, 370; veterans organizations, 2,100; citizens voluntary rehabilitation committees, 800; Department of Veterans Affairs hospitals, 2,600 regional offices, newspapers and other publications, Department of Veterans Affairs district offices, veterans settled under Veterans' Land Act and individual recipients-largely consisting of persons in close touch with groups of veterans-1,400. Those are approximate figures.


George Randolph Pearkes: I think this is a great extravagance; and in view of the nature of the publication and the material included, I recommend that a drastic cut be made in the item.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Item 535, as it appears at page 80 of the estimates, indicates an increase of $14,251,560 over last year. By making reference to the details at page 294, one will see that this apparent increase is due to 822,626,000 having been provided in 1947-48 in a separate vote under demobilization and reconversion estimates. So that the true situation is that a total of $46,776,640 was provided in 1947-48 as compared with $38,402,200 in 1948-49. Therefore, in effect, there has been a net decrease of $8,374,440 in the amount provided for treatment services in 1948-49 as compared with 1947-48. As we proceed, it will be noted that an attempt has been made so far as possible to clear out all those items which were formerly carried under demobilization and reconversion and to incorporate them in the appropriate items in the estimates this year.


George Randolph Pearkes: I believe it would be appropriate under this item to discuss the amount of money charged veteran patients who are taken into Department of Veterans Affairs hospitals, when such patients are not pensioners and when the cause for their admission to hospital is not attributed to pensionable disability.
I believe I am correct in saying that even chronic cases are not accepted in hospitals unless they are in dire financial straits. I
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Milton Fowler Gregg: I do not propose to answer the hon. member's comments, except at two points. One, at the beginning: I would not accept the strong term "dire need" in connection with our acceptance of the old soldier. For a need approximating anything the equivalent of a 100 per cent pensioner, we would give consideration to accepting him under the terms mentioned by the hon. member.
On the other point, a maximum of $9 a day was mentioned. I would point out, however, that this includes medical treatment. It is an all-inclusive figure, which does not apply to the Blue Cross or to the compensation board. Furthermore, I believe that $9 is the maximum figure in Canada, and that it is not as high as that in all hosiptals.


George Randolph Pearkes: I have suggested that it is far too much to ask from an old soldier who comes into a hospital built up by the people of

this country for the express purpose of looking after the old soldiers. I know it is suggested that you cannot admit them all. But I do ask that an extension be made to the hospitalization so as to include men who have fought in either the first or the second world war. There is a great opportunity to provide more hospitalization at more reasonable prices and also to enable out-patients to be given treatment in a more generous way than at present.
If I were asked what the greatest weakness in the administration of the Department of Veterans Affairs was, I would say it was the niggardly assistance given to veterans who are not eligible for hospital treatment because their ailments are not directly attributable to a war disability. We could extend these services a great deal more. Legion branches all over Canada have been passing resolutions on this point, and it is something which should receive the most careful consideration of the minister.


Mr. BLAIR:: Does that $9 ward rate charged to old soldiers cover medical services as well? In the east you can get a private room for $9. Even if medical treatment is included I think the price is far beyond that charged by any average hospital in this country.


Milton Fowler Gregg: It does include medical treatment.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: So does the $4.50 which the health department pays for the Indians, and that includes operations and everything else.


Mr. FULTON:: I am pleased to support everything that has been said by the hon. member for Nanaimo, and I do so on the basis of several cases that have come to my attention, to only one of which I shall refer. This particular case has been taken up with the department. It concerns a veteran who applied for admission to Sbaughnessy hospital; but, because the ailment from which he was suffering was not that for which he was pensioned, it was some two or three months before they finally decided to admit him. The seriousness of this situation can be appreciated when I say that shortly after the veteran was admitted he underwent an operation from which he did not recover. There are good grounds for supposing that, had he been admitted when he first made application, the true cause of his trouble might have been discovered and his life prolonged.
As the hon. member for Nanaimo has said, this question of veterans applying for admission to hospitals for treatment of ailments other than those for which they are pensioned requires the most careful study and sympathetic consideration. These veterans should be able to have the benefits of hospitalization. As

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was pointed out, these hospitals were built by the people of Canada for the treatment of old soldiers.


Howard Charles Green: What is the departmental policy with regard to the hospitalization of veterans for ailments other than their war disabilities? I think we should have that picture cleared up. Apparently this is a new departure, although I believe that for many years a veteran without resources could get hospitalization without any allowances. This charging a veteran the same rate that would be charged in a civilian hospital is something comparatively new, and I believe the minister should give us the whole story.
While he is doing that, will he also say whether consideration has been given to providing hospitalization for war widows? Apparently Australia decided this year to provide free hospitalization for war widows and their children in government hospitals. I have a press dispatch from Brisbane, dated March 1 of this year and reading as follows:
Australia Gives War Widows Hospital Care
Australia's 2il,000 war widows and their 13,000 children under 16 years of age will shortly get free medical treatment at war veterans' hospitals.
Under a new scheme they will get specialist care, a full range of medicines and drugs, and X-ray diagnosis.
At present widows and children receive only limited medical care from the government.
What is the policy of the Canadian government with regard to war widows and their children?


Milton Fowler Gregg: May I deal with the second point first? Up to date we have no authority under our statutes for taking care of war widows or their children.


Howard Charles Green: Has any consideration been given to adopting a policy of that kind?


Milton Fowler Gregg: It was discussed this year in the veterans affairs committee and representations were made there. However, nothing has been done.


Howard Charles Green: Is the government considering the question quite apart from the veterans affairs committee?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes, we have considered it. I should like to refresh my mind as to 'the details of the hospital policy in connection with those who are not pensioners, and I will submit full details to the committee later on.


Howard Charles Green: It would be most beneficial if the minister could give us the full picture of what, is being done.


Milton Fowler Gregg: It has not changed greatly, but I shall do that.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Two weeks ago I asked the department if a veteran who had been ordered by the proper authorities to report to a military hospital for treatment would be entitled to transportation to and from his home, including taxi cabs if necessary. May I ask that question again?


Milton Fowler Gregg: The answer is yes.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: What would 'the minister think if the following were proved to be the fact? A veteran went to Christie Street hospital and received treatment. After his 'treatment was completed, he was told by the nurse to get ready to leave on a certain date, that a taxi cab would be there to transport him to the union station at a certain hour. The veteran got ready and he asked for his transportation and was told that it was not ready for him. Fortunately his son had called at- the hospital for him and he paid for the taxi cab. He inquired from the taxi cab driver who had been ordered by the authorities at Christie Street to pick up this veteran whether he had paid, and the taxi eab driver immediately replied that no such arrangements had been made.
This veteran was completely disabled, but fortunately he had his son with him and he paid for the taxi cab. It took several weeks of correspondence finally to obtain the transportation from the institution. I say in all friendliness to the minister that I hope he will make immediate inquiry about the actions of the men and women in that hospital who are supposed to provide transportation for disabled veterans.
Transportation should be sent to these men before they leave their homes. We cannot surmise that they will all be men able to pay for their own transportation. They may be living on a small allowance. Certainly, when they leave the institutions they should be treated in the same way as we were during the last war. When we left the hospital a pass was placed in our hands and they said, "Good-bye and good luck to you." But here a man is sent to the station in a taxi which has been ordered by someone in authority at Christie Street, and when he arrives at the station he finds that no arrangements had been made for his rail or taxi transportation. It may be discovered that some person is doing something that should not be done, something not according to the rules in the book. If a veteran arrives at a hospital and, not knowing the rules, does not ask for transportation, it should automatically be given to him; or if upon discharge he does not ask for trans-
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UuMMONS

[Stage Direction]
portation he should be followed up with a letter saying, "You were entitled to your transportation and we forgot to give it to you when you left the hospital. Here it is." I am sure that if the minister will make an investigation at Christie Street hospital he will iind that every disabled veteran has not been provided with transportation.
Milton Fowler Gregg: If the hon. member will give me the details of this or similar cases I shall be glad to look into them.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I shall be glad to do that.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: I want to take the minister into another phase of hospitalization which I think is important, and to present it properly I shall have to go back into history. I refer to the domiciliary care of veterans on a small pension or receiving the war veterans allowance who are now hospitalized in such places as the Red Chevron in Toronto. If their pension is not sufficient to provide them with certain necessary amenities they are granted $5 a month for comforts and $5 a month for clothes. This policy resulted from the deliberations of the committee of 1922 and was implemented in 1924. Between then and 1936 the amount was raised to $20 a month; I presume $10 a month was for comforts and $10 a month for clothes. But in 1936 the *department reduced the amount to $10 a month-$5 for comforts and $5 for clothes. It requires no extended argument on my part to convince the minister that $5 a month in 1936 was worth a good deal more than $5 a month is today. All that has been brought out in the veterans affairs committee and in the prices committee. A lot of these old veterans are chronic cases who will probably finish their days in these hospitals; and, as I say, they are receiving only $5 a month for comforts, for such things as cigarettes, toothpaste, and a lot of other little things that help to make their lives happier. There is another $5 a month available for clothes but that $5 is put away in their clothing account.
I rise this afternoon to protest against any pensioner of Canada or any soldier with meritorious service sufficient to entitle him to the war veterans allowance spending the rest of his days in hospital with an allowance of only $5 a month to buy the ordinary small comforts of life. I feel very strongly that the minister's department is placing these old veterans and the younger veterans of world war II in an impossible position in allowing them only $5 a month for comforts, and that a change in the regulations is imperative. The first change I would recommend would be that the minister bring the rates back to what they

were before they were changed in 1936. If the minister cannot do that he could at least make $10 a month available to the veteran to use as he sees fit. If the minister cannot do that, he could at least raise the amount available for comforts just as pensions and the vTar veterans allowance have been raised on the recommendation of the veterans committee.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I did not realize that there had been a reduction in the amount allowed for clothing and comforts. However I shall be glad to look into the matter.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: I am taking my information from a veteran. Of course I may be wrong.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I will check on it. Leaving aside for the moment that question, and without attempting in any way to argue whether $5 a month is enough for comforts for these older men, I should like to say how greatly encouraged I was during the last few w'eeks in visiting some of these homes in the western part of our country, in Winnipeg, in Saskatchewan at the former lieutenant governor's home, and in Vancouver and Victoria. I think I talked with ninety per cent of the men who were resident there. It may have been kindness or politeness, but l must say that none of them raised the point noiv raised by my hon. friend. It may be it was something that they did not want to raise.
But leaving that aside as something to look into, I can assure the committee that the conditions under which these veterans were living were such as to make one's heart glad. Old men who would never be able to work were receiving attention and care from charming nurses and visits from the people of the community, and while I was in one hospital, a group of veterans were listening with great gusto to a boxing match coming over the radio, and showing every sign of living a life of contentment during a period of their years when they were no longer able to work. I am free to admit that there are others who are able and anxious to work, and we are prepared to help them gain that opportunity through the national employment service. I will take the point raised by my hon. friend into consideration and see what can be done.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: With what the minister has had to say in regard to the hospitals, I must agree in large measure. They are ably staffed, and the people who are in charge of most of them are experienced in their work and do a tremendous amount to make the days of these old veterans of Canada as happy as possible. I am expressing today what may be the only remaining irritation of these veterans. It may seem a trifling matter to the government with

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a budget surplus of half a million dollars, but these old soldiers are forced to pinch and scrape on the little pocket-money they are allowed, and their lives would be made much happier if a larger allowance were made for comforts.


William Gourlay Blair: There are places in Canada where every once in a while a veteran is transferred from a military to a civilian hospital. In a case like that, how much does the department pay to the civilian hospital in ward rates?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I am told that the average would be $6.70, and we provide the medical service.


George Randolph Pearkes: Under what terms are imperial soldiers admitted into D.V.A. hospitals?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If they are in receipt of a Canadian pension or war veterans allowance they are treated exactly the same as Canadians.


George Randolph Pearkes: If they are in receipt of an imperial pension, under certain conditions they are admitted into D.V.A. hospitals.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Not unless that imperial pension is augmented by our Canadian pension, indicating that they were domiciled in Canada, but not if it is imperial pension alone.


George Randolph Pearkes: I should like the minister to be quite certain that that answer is correct. Suppose a British pensioner has an ailment which is attributed to his service, and that pensioner is living in Canada; can he not be admitted into our D.V.A. hospitals?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If it is a British pension entirely? I understand that there are cases where we do take them in for treatment and all purposes, but at the cost of the British pension commission.


George Randolph Pearkes: That is what I was asking. Their hospitalization is paid by the British ministry. Permission has to be obtained from the high commissioner's office here, I presume, or whatever office it is.


Milton Fowler Gregg: The British ministry of
pensions.


George Randolph Pearkes: Then they are admitted into our hospitals. Are they charged at the rate of $9 a day?


Milton Fowler Gregg: They are charged at the standard rates of the hospital, if it is $9. Under the other arrangement it would be $9.


George Randolph Pearkes: That would be paid by the British authorities.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


George Randolph Pearkes: I notice that there is no classification of seamstresses in the details. Recently such a classification was adopted by hospitals run by the Department of National Health and Welfare. The department has classifications for housekeepers and waitresses. It is quite obvious that seamstresses are required in our veterans hospitals exactly as they are required in hospitals conducted by the Department of National Health and Welfare. Until recently they were paying their seamstresses', waitresses' or housemaids' pay in the Department of National Health and Welfare. I suggest that we need seamstresses. Can the minister say whether seamstresses are employed, and if so what rate are they paid, because I do not see it in the list of details?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I believe we have seamstresses, but I do not know how they are classified here. May I refer to that later?


George Randolph Pearkes: Yes, if you would, because I do not think you will find it. They should be paid more than the rate paid for ordinary maid service. They should be paid on the same basis as the Department of National Health and Welfare pays.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I will get the information.


Frank Exton Lennard: I have one complaint to make which has not been mentioned so far this afternoon. Some months ago enabling orders were issued by D.V.A. headquarters to permit the employment of optometrists on the staffs of D.V.A. hospitals and in clinics dealing with veterans' cases. Up to the moment, to the best of my knowledge, not one optometrist has been employed'. Are any being employed? These services are now being performed by ophthalmologists, and they are jealous of their position. My point is this. The ophthalmologist makes the examination and the optician fills the prescription. If some optometrists were employed by the department they would make the examination, fill the prescription and be responsible for it. I know that in many cases today chaps are getting the wrong lenses. I am not saying who is to blame. I feel it would be far more businesslike for the optometrist, the man who makes the examination, to fill the prescription and be responsible for it.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I thank the hon. member for Wentworth for his suggestion. I shall be glad to look into it.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: I have one further word on the treatment sidle, and I wish to bring it to the attention of the minister. I do not intend to mention any names, but I have in mind five cases in which veterans suffering from some kind of war neurosis have had great difficulty
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in getting assistance from the Department of Veterans Affairs. I refer to an article, one of the last written by Kenneth Cragg, of the Globe and Mail, datelined Ottawa, January 30. In this article Mr.. Cragg mentions that in the view of the Department of Veterans Affairs pensions should foe allowed only in rare and fairly well-defined instances. He goes on to say that if you grant a pension to a neurotic you may handicap him for life. I understand from the hon. member for Lanark that this is also the view of the United) States government and of the British government. Therefore I have no quarrel with that view in a medical way, because I would not be well enough informed to quarrel with it.
The point I wish to make is a very simple one. These men are genuinely suffering from a war disability. It may be true that to pension them would do more harm than it would good, but there is one thing to which they should foe entitled. I suppose it would require a new definition in the Department of Veterans Affairs. They should foe entitled to treatment and hospitalization, when their parents, their wives or their families, or even they themselves, request it. That seems to me to be the least that we can do for a man who has a disability aggravated or caused in part or in whole by the war. He should be admitted to a veterans hospital, because he should receive a category which will make it possible for him to be admitted to any veterans hospital in Canada.
I have had experience in trying to get two of these men into hospital. They had nothing on their records. They were not sick. They were discharged fit, and all the rest of it; yet they had a history of neurosis in the services which in some cases was quite severe. There is the family background in both cases. It was very sad and compelling. I do not want to go into it. In the one case the hon. member for Wellington South and I were forced to co-operate in order to get a man into the hospital in London, Ontario. My only complaint or suggestion to the department in this instance is that some notation should be made on a veteran's document that he suffers from this type of illness or disability, so that he will have free access to our hospitals, should he require hospitalization.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I should like to say that the problem mentioned by the hon. member is one that our medical people recognize fully. I know of cases myself which come within that category, and we are attempting to find something like an answer.


Lawrence Wilton Skey: I make the suggestion.


Edward George McCullough: I have something I wish to bring to the attention of the minister under this item, and perhaps it is involved in item 537. It has to do with the Canadians who enlisted in the Belgian army. I believe there are about two or three hundred of these Canadian citizens who fought in the last great war.
One case that has been brought to my attention is that of a young veteran who was hospitalized for tuberculosis after the war. I managed to have his hospitalization taken care of, but he has been suffering from ill health ever since. Since the Department of Veterans Affairs does not pay a pension until the Belgian office is ready to pay their pension-in which case the Canadian veterans affairs department will supplement that pension-the situation is that this young veteran has no income. He is invalided. His only way or means of obtaining a livelihood is by remaining at home. Since two or three hundred other veterans might be in this situation, I should like the minister to comment on it. Can anything be done to hasten payment by the Belgian office? I have been in communication with the Belgian office on several different occasions trying to get some action on this matter, but have had no success.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I will consider that matter under item 537. Offhand I do not see that there is anything we could do except attempting to hasten payment. But I will check on the matter and give a further reply.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
536. Prosthetic services, $952,584.
Mr. HARKNESS:: I should like to ask the minister what the situation is now with regard to the provision of hearing aids. I know that not so long ago the veteran who needed a hearing aid was provided with a certain one that the department had apparently adopted. That was the only one he could get, whether it fitted him, whether he thought it worked properly or whether it was any good to him or not. I know that a change has been made in regard to the matter, and I think the veteran who requires a hearing aid now has more choice. But I do not know whether he yet has a more or less full choice among the various types of equipment. Will the minister say just what the situation is?


Milton Fowler Gregg: The situation now is that the veteran has his own choice. If his choice should be for equipment that our people know is not a good kind, they will tell him so. But with that proviso, under counselling they have their free choice.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

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537. Administration expenses, including chairman of the Canadian pension commission at $1,000 and the deputy chairman of the Canadian pension commission at $500 additional to chapter 62, statutes of 1946, $2,364,452'.
Wilfrid Garfield Case: I wish to ask the minister this more or less general question. I understand that representations have now been made on behalf of the Canadian merchant marine. Can the minister say whether or not the department now has any set policy with respect to consideration for the Canadian merchant marine?


Milton Fowler Gregg: That was one of the points on which item 532, general departmental administration, was allowed to stand. That matter has been fully discussed by the parliamentary committee, and it would be premature for me to discuss it here before the committee submits its report. But there will be opportunity to discuss it later.


Edward George McCullough: Will the minister comment on the question I just asked?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Perhaps it might stand until a little later.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
539. War veterans allowance board-administration, $229,903.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have a case in which a veteran is entitled to a burnt-out pension, I imagine you would call it, or veterans pension.


Mr. MUTCH:: Veterans allowance.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes. But he has a sister whom he has kept for some twenty-five or thirty years. This man has a small bank account, and he is trying to keep it so that he can look after his sister and bury her. But he cannot get the veterans allowance until such time as he gets rid of this money. He could easily go out and spend it overnight, but he does not want to do that. I suppose he could give it away and then come under the allowance. Is there any way in which this man could come under the veterans allowance?


Leslie Alexander Mutch: How much money has he?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: About S3.000.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: He has $1,800 too much.


Milton Fowler Gregg: The act was to provide for people who were in necessity and without means of support. The amount mentioned would be in excess of the amount that would enable us to do anything for him


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Suppose this man went out and gave a part of that money away. What happens then? Is he entitled to the allowance?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I think it would be necessary for our officers to say that, if he considered that he could give that money away, he did not have any necessity for it; and consequently that he would not be in necessity in that particular situation.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is what I was afraid of. Could he give the money to his sister, to look after her?


Milton Fowler Gregg: The deputy minister quotes the words, that if he rids himself of the property for the purpose of entitling him to come under the act, he would not be eligible. The matter of intention would enter into it, as it does in so many things.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
5i0. Veterans' insurance, $98,329.
George Randolph Pearkes: Will the minister explain briefly the purpose of this insurance? Is it to assist veterans to take out life insurance without a medical examination?


Milton Fowler Gregg: It is to enable veterans to get insurance who may be in a less robust physical condition than normal people. There are some occasions on which a medical examination may be required, but in most cases it is not.


George Randolph Pearkes: Can the minister say why veterans who served in the allied forces, who are allowed practically every other benefit under the veterans legislation, are prohibited from taking advantage of this insurance?


Milton Fowler Gregg: As it stands now, if they are in receipt of a pension they may be eligible for insurance. As to the other question, I do not know whether that was taken up in the veterans affairs committee or not.


George Randolph Pearkes: It has not been taken up in the veterans affairs committee. That is why I raised it here. Those veterans are entitled to practically every other veterans benefit, with some slight modifications; yet they are debarred from taking advantage of this insurance. I am referring to those veterans who were domiciled in Canada before the war, who fought with an allied force, then came back and are now domiciled in Canada. To all intents and purposes they are Canadians. Why should they not have the benefit of this insurance legislation in exactly the same way as any other Canadian has?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If there should be any demand in that field, the matter might be considered.
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George Randolph Pearkes: May it be considered now? Will the minister take it into consideration? Will he refer it to the committee on veterans affairs either now or in the future? This seems to me to be an unfair restriction.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I shall be glad to consider it.


Eric Bowness McKay: Will the minister say whether or not veterans insurance is strictly a government enterprise, or are policies underwritten by Canadian life insurance companies?


Milton Fowler Gregg: It is entirely and strictly a government enterprise.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Payments to or for veterans and dependents-
5hl- Pensions for disability and death, including pensions granted under the authority of the civilian government employees (war) compensation order P.C. 45/8848 of 22nd November, 1944, which shall be subject to the Pension Act, $80,014,000.
Howard Charles Green: What are the latest figures on applications for pension which have been turned down on the ground that the applicant was suffering from a pre-enlistment condition not aggravated? In the veterans affaire committee in 1946 we were given figures up to December 31, 1945, and they showed that, of veterans who had service in a theatre of actual war outside Canada, 7,810 had been refused pension on the ground that their disability was pre-enlistment and not aggravated, and that, of those with service wholly in Canada, the figure was 54,207. Last year I got figures up to June 30, 1947, and they showed that of those witli service in a theatre of war, the number was 13,321, and service wholly in Canada, 72,340. That was a total of 85,661 whose application for pension had been refused on the ground that they were suffering from a pre-enlistment condition not aggravated. Can the minister give us any- later figures? It will be noticed that the last figures are up to June 30, 1947.


Milton Fowler Gregg: We have no figures later than those, but we could obtain them up to the beginning of 1948. I understand that there would not be a great increase at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: They can be got up to the end of 1947?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: I would ask that that be done.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Perhaps under the item that has been allowed to stand.


Mr. LEONARD:: There is one class of men who should have entitlement, and that is those

who adopted children after the pensionable injury occurred. Usually children are adopted for very good reasons, and certainly not with a view to obtaining the few additional dollars that might be received in the way of pension. Suppose a pensioner is unable to have children naturally and wishes to adopt a child. If the local authorities consider him of sufficiently good character, a man of good calibre, to entrust him with the upbringing of a child, the pension commission turn him down if the adoption took place after the pensionable injury occurred. That is something which certainly does not take place where the child is the natural offspring of the pensioner, even if it is bom after the injury has been sustained. This is a class who, in my opinion, should receive serious consideration by the department.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I have one question to ask the minister and I think it will be of general interest to the committee. An English subject enlisted with the Canadian army overseas. He served with the Canadian army, later married, now has two children, and is a 100 per cent disability case, receiving his cheque regularly from the Canadian government. He now seeks admission to Canada. Is there anything to prevent his coming to Canada?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Does my hon. friend mean, if he comes to Canada will he lose his pension?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: No. The question is, can he come to Canada? He has never been able to come here.


Milton Fowler Gregg: By virtue of his service in the Canadian army, one would think he would be a Canadian citizen, but that would be a matter entirely within the jurisdiction of the immigration authorities, and I would not care to make a comment.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I am bringing up the question because I think it is of interest to the committee generally.


Frank Exton Lennard: In that connection. I should think this would be a matter for the Department of Veterans Affairs to take up with the immigration authorities.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I was going to add that. If the hon. member will give me the facts of the case I shall try to unravel it.


Mr. CARDIFF:: Has the department considered any provision for a man who served at least five years overseas, without any black marks against him, and who now finds himself in the position where he is unable to hold a job, his condition appearing to have been preenlistment? Is there any provision for such chaps? This man served five years overseas.

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and he cannot now hold a job owing to his disability, the department claiming that it is pre-enlistment. He had no black marks against him during his five years of service. Surely he deserves consideration now.


Milton Fowler Gregg: It was for such veterans that special arrangements were made under the War Veterans Allowance Act. His physical condition now, which is non-pensionable, is due to a pre-enlistment disorder, and for that reason he is unemployable. He should make application for war veterans allowance, regardless of his age, if he had service outside Canada in the last war.


Mr. QUELCH:: In view of the amendment passed, to section 11 1(c), striking out the words "wilfully and deliberately concealed", will a review be made of those cases where pension was refused on the ground that the applicant had wilfully concealed disability at the time of enlistment?


Milton Fowler Gregg: That is under way now.


Victor Quelch: Upon application only?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Why should it be necessary for the veteran to apply? There will be thousands of these veterans who will never know that they can apply. One good illustration of the difficulty in that connection is the trouble which the minister's colleague, the Minister of Finance, or perhaps it is the Minister of National Revenue, is having in locating people who have refundable savings coming to them. One would suppose that every person having refundable savings payable to him would let the department know of his whereabouts, but apparently there are thousands of such persons who are not communicating with the department. The same is true of veterans. There wall be veterans in places all over Canada who will never learn that they can get pension in consequence of the change in the section, and I suggest that in all cases in which pension has been refused there should be a review automatically by the pension commission and the pensions granted without the commission sitting back and waiting for the veteran to apply. It is most unfair to hold out on the veteran in that way.


Milton Fowler Gregg: In the matter of making known those changes that have been made in all veterans legislation this session, as soon as the session closes there will be a conference on the part of my officials for the purpose of publishing a summary, and also working out plans which we feel can best carry out the letter and spirit of those amendments, along the lines mentioned here. I can assure hon.
members that no effort will be spared to attempt to interpret those amendments in the best possible way.


Howard Charles Green: The minister will recall
that during the earlier discussions of the special committee there was agreement to recommend to the department that meritorious pensions granted under section 21, should be automatically increased without its being necessary to wait for an application from the pensioner. I am sure that all members who served on the committee would like to have cases which will benefit by the other changes dealt with automatically in the same way, without the necessity of having to wait for applications to be made. If there are other amendments to the act benefiting veterans, then I think those benefits should go out automatically. Such cases should be dealt with automatically, and there should be no need to wait for an application.


Victor Quelch: I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver South. It would be much simpler to do it on an automatic basis than to wait for applications. There is no question that many veterans will never know this legislation has been passed. As we go across the country, we find that many statutes with which one would think people would be familiar, and which have been given publicity, are not well known. There will be many cases where veterans have been denied pensions on the ground that their disabilities were of preenlistment origin. That veteran may still be denied later on, on the ground that it was recorded. I suggest, therefore, that in every case where the pension commission have a file of a list of soldiers or veterans who were denied pensions on the ground that for a time they wilfully concealed their disability, those cases should be taken up and reviewed. There will be some cases where disabilities may have been recorded, and where veterans would not be eligible for pensions.


Angus MacInnis: Since I was not a member of the special committee on veterans affairs I hesitate to say anything here, because there are so many other members quite capable of dealing with the matter. However I would associate myself with the hon. members for Vancouver South and Acadia in what they have said this afternoon. It seems to me that where an improvement has been made in the Pension Act or in the War Veterans Allowance Act, where it is on record that a person would be entitled to the improved benefits of the act, the department should not wait for the individuals concerned to make applications. Those cases should now be taken up automatically by the department. They
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should be advised that they are now eligible for the improved pension or allowance, as the case may be.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I can assure hon. members who have spoken that the object they have in mind is exactly that of the department. Perhaps it has been overlooked, but steps will be taken to do what is desired. The point is this: Is it better for us now to go into files which have been semi-dead, when we have pensions advocates who have under their care cases such as those we have been discussing and who have been bringing them back for review by the pension board. It is a case of having to decide, as I think we must, which appears to us to require priority, to accomplish what has been mentioned this afternoon.


Howard Charles Green: Rut there are only a handful of pensions advocates across the country. They will be working with a very small number of these cases in which pensions have been refused on certain grounds which have now been removed. There will be only a handful of those cases on the desks of the pensions advocates. If the department does not move to grant the pensions it may be years before these veterans receive any benefit from the legislation. I suggest that a staff should be put to work in the Department of Veterans Affairs right away to go over these cases which have been turned down, and to arrange that the veterans receive the benefits.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There is one other point I should like to bring to the minister's attention. As the minister recalls, in respect of the increase both in the disability pension and in the war veterans allowance, it has been made clear that those amounts will be paid automatically. On the basis of that information I have answered letters telling veterans that they do not have to apply for those adjustments, but they need only bide their time and the adjustments will be made. It seems to me that the effect of that will carry over into this stage of the matter as well. Veterans generally will tend to feel that it is automatic, and they will not apply until they discover that it is not.


Victor Quelch: Surely veterans bureaux or veterans advocates will not have complete files of cases where veterans have been denied pensions on the ground that disability was wilfully concealed.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Complete files will be available. But I can assure hon. members that this discussion will be kept carefully in mind in working out the plans to review these cases.

May I reply to a question asked about Canadian ex-servicemen who served with the Belgian forces? They may have their pension awards increased to Canadian rates. They must establish entitlement, and obtain the original award from the country with which they served. There are very few Belgian cases in which decisions have not been rendered. The number is small.


Frank Exton Lennard: Are the service bureaux and adjustment offices of the Canadian Legion being supported by the government?


Milton Fowler Gregg: The veterans bureau is a service provided by the department at public expense on behalf of the veterans. Twelve or fifteen years ago it was decided that it was not desirable to instruct the veteran that he must, as a compulsory matter, come to a government advocate, no matter how impartial that advocate might be. It was made optional that he could go to a veterans' organization to receive help and advice in preparing his case.


Frank Exton Lennard: The reason for my question is that I have had some dealings with the service bureau in the Hamilton district, and with satisfactory results. I believe these service bureaux officers are taking a great interest in veterans' cases, and they are not now being left to pensions advocates. That has been my experience. The service bureau officer in Hamilton is doing a splendid job. This bureau is replacing the old system of pensions advocates who sometimes were not taking the interest they should in cases. If these cases are dealt- with in the manner in which they are in Hamilton I think the situation will be much better in the future.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: To revert to the question asked by the hon. member for Vancouver South about section 21, the situation with respect to a pension granted under that section is that more than half of those in receipt of pension have already-been reviewed; tihe review is proceeding without request from the recipients.


Howard Charles Green: What we are suggesting is that the same procedure be followed in the case of men who have been ruled out because of pre-enlistment conditions.


Edward George McCullough: Are these Belgian soldier cases being handled with dispatch, -or is there any reason why there should be delay in particular cases? In the case I have before me the veteran had to wait for over two years before settlement was made. The answer -that is always given is that the Belgian office is the cause of the delay. Will it be possible to correct this situation in the near

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future, so that some assurance can be given that pensions wild be forthcoming?


Milton Fowler Gregg: We are receiving the utmost co-operation from the Belgian embassy in Ottawa. In some cases reference must be made to Belgium, but we do not anticipate much delay.


George Randolph Pearkes: Are the files to which the minister referred retained at district headquarters?


Milton Fowler Gregg: There is a duplicate file at head office and one at district headquarters.


George Randolph Pearkes: That would account for some of the delay experienced on Vancouver island, because they would have to send to Vancouver for the files. It should be remembered that in Victoria we have only a parttime pensions advocate, although I believe he has recently been given a full-time assistant. This illustrates the difficulties which are being experienced there, and it is no wonder that I get resolutions from branches of the legion such as the Britannia branch, one of the largest in the southern portion of Vancouver island, reading as follows:
That this branch go on record again urging that in the interests of returned men of this area that the D.V.A. be again asked to create a separate district of D.V.A. of Victoria and district, with headquarters here.
I mention this to illustrate the difficulties under which veterans in the southern portion of Vancouver island are carrying on.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
r>//2. War veterans' allowances, $18,085,000.
Mr. ROBINSON (Bruce):: There is a considerable increase in this item, and the details on page 298 of the estimates show that this increase is largely in connection with the veterans of world war I. Is this increase to provide increased allowances to those already receiving allowances, or is it to pay allowances to new recipients? How many new veterans of world war I were added last year?


Milton Fowler Gregg: This amount is to pay the war veterans allowances had they not been increased this year. The amount necessary to take care of the recent increases will have to be provided in the supplementary estimates for the current year, just as an amount had to be provided in the supplementary estimates to take care of the retroactive feature from October 1.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: How many were taken on last year?


Milton Fowler Gregg: On April 1, 1947, there were about 30,000 veterans of world war I, and on 5849-347
April 1, 1948, there were 27,700, or a decrease of approximately 2,300.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: That is not just what I want to find out. I want to find out how many new veterans of world war I were taken on during the past year.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Perhaps that question could stand and I shall attempt to answer it later.


Mr. CHARLTON:: Is there any difference between the treatment given to an Indian veteran and that given to a white veteran?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No. The Indian veteran is treated the same as any other veteran for all purposes.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Is the war veterans allowance made to an Indian veteran on exactly the same basis as to a wrhite veteran, or does the Indian affairs branch have a finger in the pie and make recommendations in connection with the matter?


Milton Fowler Gregg: The answer is no. The Indian is treated exactly the same as any other veteran.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The Indian agent did have a hand in the payment of gratuities and other things of that kind, and I am just wondering if the Indian always got the full amount, or was it cut down because he was getting a grant from the tribe?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I understand that there are no restrictions against Indians as such under the act. If the board, as in the case of any veteran, considers that the funds would be better administered by some body acting on behalf of the veteran, they have the power to order that.


Douglas Scott Harkness: How many Indian veterans are receiving war veterans allowances and in how many cases are the funds being administered by the Indian affairs branch?


Milton Fowler Gregg: We have no record as to the first question, because I do not think that it matters. They are Canadian citizens by virtue of their service in the forces, and I do not think we should keep track of that. I think I can get an answer to the second question and I shall try to do so.


George Randolph Pearkes: Are band funds of the Indians taken into consideration when these awards are being paid? Assuming that the Indians have certain band funds; would it be apportioned between the Indians and the Indians credited with so much?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I think not, but I shall verify that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
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[Stage Direction]
548.	Grant to Canadian Legion, $9,000.
Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: This is a grant to the Canadian Legion out of the taxes paid by Canadian citizens. The N.R.M.A. are Canadian citizens and they are discriminated against by the legion, so that I cannot support this grant. I see members here who voted in favour of conscription. Either that law was good, or it was not. If that law was good, these men who obeyed the law, just like United States citizens, citizens of Britain and citizens of South Africa did, should not be discriminated against. It is time to put a stop to that discrimination. I do not see why parliament and the government could not meet the legion half way and impress on them that this discrimination must stop. The N.R.M.A., I say once again, are Canadian citizens and obeyed the law, and because they waited to be drafted they are not to be banned from social and other privileges. I am not the only one in this country who feels that way about it. I think amendments will have to be brought into the house to put these draftees in the same position as others. Some of these draftees served overseas, and I do not see why they should be discriminated against after having served in a theatre of war. I ask the government to think carefully before making a grant to this association which discriminates against Canadian citizens who are paying their taxes just like other Canadian citizens.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
549.	To provide for the cost of administration of soldier settlement; British family settlement; general land settlement, and Veterans' Land Act, including engineering and other investigational planning and subdivision expenses that do not add tangible value to real propertv $5,285,703.
Douglas Scott Harkness: Has any further consideration been given to the question of giving veterans who took up land under the Soldier Settlement Act or the Veterans' Land Act title to the mineral rights? I took this matter up in the house two years ago and have had considerable correspondence about it with the department. It is becoming an increasingly serious question to certain settlers in Alberta because of the extension of the oil fields there. The situation has been that even when the soldier settler had paid for his land in full and got possession the board reserved the mineral rights, although in many cases the soldier thought he was buying the mineral rights as well as the surface rights to his property. An amendment to the Soldier Settlement Act was introduced in this house some years ago to deal with this matter, but it was defeated in the other place. The

previous minister of veterans affairs intimated to me some time ago that he thought probably that amendment should be reintroduced and the matter fixed up in that way. Is any consideration being given to that, and would the government be prepared to reintroduce an amendment?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I know that a great number of members from the west are interested in this matter. My attention was called to it shortly after I came into this department. We have been taking the matter up in close cooperation with the Department of Mines and Resources, and we have even got to the point of putting forward what appears to be a possible solution for the consideration of the Department of Justice. We will follow that up as soon as we get a ruling from the justice department on the points raised. I am familiar with the history of the former bill which passed this house and died in another place. It ought to be possible by next session, if not before, to bring the matter forward.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Is it not possible to get around the difficulty without having an amendment to the law? In other words, is that what you have referred to the Department of Justice for a ruling? Or is it still considered necessary to amend the act?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If we find that an amendment to the act is not necessary we shall be very happy to carry the plan into effect as suggested.


Pierre Gauthier: 
Milton Fowler Gregg: I shall be glad to follow that suggestion, because the opportunity is still there for those eligible from world war II, since no limitation is yet placed upon the time.


Pierre Gauthier: I ask the minister if he would give greater publicity to it, so that veterans who are not aware of it may profit from it.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I shall be glad to do that.


Mr. FAIR:: With respect to the question of mineral rights which was taken up a few moments ago by the hon. member for Calgary East, I may say I have been playing around with this on behalf of my constituents for nearly two years. Apparently two or three departments of government have been playing around with it also. Since coming here last December, I have discussed the matter on various occasions with the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Only a couple of days ago he told me to come in to see him on Monday next. That is the reason I have not taken the matter up with him today. I have been assured by the minister that we are nearing an agreement. If that agreement is not reached satisfactorily I can tell the minister that we shall have some more playing around with this question.
I understand that up to 1883 mineral rights went with the land. Since that time, the lights have been reserved by the crown. In many cases, 1,200 or 1,300 I believe, settlers who took out lands under the soldier settlement board did get the mineral rights on their land. Section 57 of the Soldier Settlement Act took away or confiscated these mineral rights. In 1940 the government saw fit to bring in a bill, No. 31, which was passed through this house without very much discussion. However, when it went to the other place there was some discussion there as to the right of a farmer to have mineral rights. The final decision arrived at was that farmers were placed on the land by the soldier settlement board primarily for the purpose of farming, and as a result of that they were not entitled to mineral rights. The soldier settlement board might just as well confiscate buildings and other improvements on a farm as confiscate the mineral rights.
My constituency is vitally interested in this question because we have a lot of oil in the Llovdminster, Vermilion, Wainwright and other districts in that constituency. While a number of our soldier settlers are interested, I feel that the time is close at hand when the
5849-347i
government will see fit to return to these people that which they confiscated from them by section 57 of the Soldier Settlement Act.
I am not pressing this question at the present time, because the minister, in whom I have every confidence, told me to see him again next week. I am hoping at that time to get a satisfactory reply from him, but I assure the minister now and the government that unless some satisfactory settlement is made of this, that is, giving back to the soldier settlers that which was confiscated from them, we shall have some lawsuits and some more playing around through the courts, because we have been playing around long enough with the department and with the government.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I have a statement I promised to make in response to the remarks made by the hon. member for Lake Centre which appear on pages 4586 to 4588 of Hansard, in which he made certain comments dealing with the discrimination against certain areas in Saskatchewan, with particular reference to his own constituency. I had intended to send him a map showing the settlers settled in his constituency and in Saskatchewan. I shall send it to his colleagues. With the unanimous consent of the committee, I should like to place this statement on Hansard, so that hon. members may read it.


William Ross Macdonald: Has the minister unanimous consent?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Milton Fowler Gregg: The statement follows: Discrimination against certain areas of the province of Saskatchewan. In the purchase of land for veterans the department makes no discrimination in regard to any particular area in Canada, but great care is exercised to ensure that veterans are not established on marginal or submarginal farm land. Any deviation from this policy, even for the strongest sentimental reasons, would not be in keeping with the spirit and intent of the Veterans' Land Act. It has always been the policy of the department to assist veterans to re-establish themselves in civil life on a sound, long-term basis. Anything less would be playing false to those to whom Canada owes so much.
However, to be more specific, as far back as July, 1943, a policy was laid down after consultation with senior agricultural officials of the provincial departments of the prairie provinces and the western universities, and a number of outstanding farmers. The departmental officials had had extensive experience settling veterans of world war I, and were well aware of pitfalls to be avoided.
Briefly, that policy restricts land purchases to certain types of soil in different areas,
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depending on climatic conditions. It was formulated after an exhaustive study of all available information with regard to longterm crop yields, bonuses under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, relief records, soil textures, and fertility and precipitation data.
In practice, each field supervisor is provided with soil survey report No. 12 for the province of Saskatchewan, and up-to-date soil maps. The survey report gives a comprehensive description of the soils of the provinces, discusses their limitations for agricultural use, and contains a soil rating index for each soil type. Land appraisals are made with great care and include a careful examination of both top and sub-soils. Where available, aerial photographs are being distributed to assist the field supervisor to outline the physical features of the farm. Use is made of the economic land classification maps published by the economics division, Department of Agriculture, in co-operation with the department of farm management, University of Saskatchewan. In addition, the administration itself has records of long-term yields and data concerning yield variations in particular areas. Even with all this information available it is again pointed out that under present policy no farm is turned down until it has been individually examined and considered strictly on its own merits as an economic unit, and in relation to the price asked.
Thus, when a farm is declared unsuitable, having been considered from all these points of view, the administration would indeed be false to its trust if it were to permit a veteran to make what is probably the one big purchase of his lifetime on such a property, however much the veteran himself may desire to locate there at that particular time. In fact, instances have occurred when veterans subsequently established on sound propositions have expressed sincere gratitude for having been saved from the pitfalls of settlement on an uneconomic unit.
With respect to settlement in the hon. member for Lake Centre's constituency a map indicates that veterans have been settled on parcels of land uniformly dispersed and comparable to almost any other section of the province.
Reasons for declining purchase of certain parcels of land. Mr. Diefenbaker has quoted an extract from a letter forwarded by a departmental official to a veteran, in which the veteran was advised that the farm in question could not be purchased, and the reasons could not be given as they were strictly confidential. Admittedly, this was an unfortun-

ate letter, but it is certainly an isolated case. A recent survey of copies of letters declining purchase sent to veterans in Mr. Diefenbaker's constituency during the padt fifteen months indicates that the following extract is more typical:-
However, the committee did state that they considered the land unsuitable, and I think if you had looked over the farm, you would perhaps realize yourself just why it was rejected, especially if you compared it with a good farm in a good area. You can also have a very good idea of the type of farm it is by comparing the assessment with land which is of a good class. In this case, one quarter is assessed at $1,050 and the other at $1,000, and according to the assessment commission, ratings below $1,200 are considered sub-marginal.
It might be pointed out that initially it was a custom to state quite clearly to a veteran why a farm was unsuitable, but it was found that it was causing considerable embarrassment to the vendor and other individuals interested in the community. It was then decided that specific reasons should not be given in order that a vendor whose farm might represent his life's work would not have his property publicly condemned. Admittedly it is a choice of evils, but no doulbt the hon. member for Labe Centre would be very quick to champion the rights of individual citizens whose assets were being publicly depreciated by a government department.
Delays in obtaining approval for settlement. It is admitted that there were delays in the handling of applications for loans in the past, particularly in the fall of 1946 when the regional offices were swamped with applications just before freeze-up. It will be readily understood that accurate appraisals cannot be made during, winter months. It took six weeks to two months to catch up with this backlog in the spring of 1947. This year there was a very small backlog of applications on hand, but as the spring has been very late, with extremely bad roads, there was a hold-up in the appraisals in some areas until nearly the middle of May. The district superintendent for the province of Saskatchewan reported on June 4 that there were only twenty odd appraisals outstanding, and these are being checked rapidly. The district superintendent reported further that for current applications the time from the date of appraisal until the veteran is advised varies from five to twenty days, with the average time being approximately fourteen days.
Increase in the amount of loan as requested by the Govan Branch of the Canadian Legion. The resolution by some of the branches of the legion recommending an increase in the amount of loan to veterans being established under the

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Veterans' Land Act was turned down by the resolutions committee at the recent dominion convention of the Canadian Legion which was held in Saskatoon, as it was felt that to go beyond the present maximum of the act would be loading the veteran with too large a debt, and that it would be wiser to encourage establishment under section 9 (3) of the act, followed subsequently by an establishment under section 9 (1) when the veteran had sufficient funds of his own to supplement the loan in order to buy a more expensive unit.
Veterans settled on small holdings in Prince Albert. Mr. Diefenbaker made reference to eight veterans in the Prince Albert area who signed an agreement to purchase a small holding at a certain figure, and indicated that subsequently they were asked to sign another agreement at a higher figure. It is assumed that all eight cases are typical of the one specific case quoted, in which the circumstances are as follows:
This veteran was permitted occupancy before the house was completed and the actual cost known and, as he requested a loan for equipment, it was necessary that he sign an agreement for what was estimated would be the cost of the house. It will be recalled that at that time there was a heavy demand for housing. and for humanitarian reasons the department departed from normal practice and permitted veterans to occupy houses which were habitable but not completed. Subsequently, due to the increased cost of construction, it was found that the actual cost of the house had been under-estimated, and thus, in keeping with the act, it became necessary to request a new agreement at the increased figure.
The department feels justified in taking such humanitarian action, even though it has later caused some embarrassment both to the department and the veteran.
The obtaining of machinery for veterans. The hon. member for Lake Centre suggests that some provision should be made for priority in machinery for veterans. It is pointed out that this priority system exists at the present time and has for several years, and has been receiving the wholehearted cooperation of the machinery manufacturers and their dealers. For example, as of March 31 this year 8,731 tractors and 880 combines had been delivered to veterans since the inception of the act. In point of fact, veterans established under the Veterans Land Act are much better supplied with new implements than any other group of farmers in Canada. In Saskatchewan 68 per cent of the farmers have tractors of some kind, many of these twelve, thirteen and fourteen years old; 53-4 per cent of veterans being established have
new tractors, and approximately 20 per cent have second-hand tractors of one kind or another.
In order to acquaint the machinery companies with the expected requirements of machinery for veterans settling under the act, their estimated requirements are ascertained from district and regional offices approximately fifteen months before delivery is required. This information is carefully screened and a definite figure as to the quantities of the different models of machines required is established. Implement companies are then approached, and definite arrangements made with them to deliver to veterans coming under the act the machines so ordered at the price in effect at time of delivery, less 10 per cent on general line machines and 7 per cent on tractors and combines. Each year provision has been made to meet the estimated over-all requirements, but there have been many production difficulties which have prevented the implement companies from fulfilling their commitments. Whenever it became apparent that any types of machines had been ordered in excess of actual requirements, the surplus implements were immediately returned to the manufacture to be distributed amongst veterans establishing themselves, or to agriculture generally.
While there were no specific quantities arranged to meet the requirements of veterans establishing themselves outside the act, there has been in effect a working arrangement with implement companies to set aside a percentage of their total production to meet special orders coming from veterans who are establishing themselves and, in addition, when urgent requirements develop, machines are released, wherever possible, from Veterans' Land Act quotas.
Veterans with low disabilities denied settlement. It is certainly not the policy of the department to refuse assistance solely on the ground of a small disability. Already many veterans with high disabilities have been established as full-time farmers. Where any doubt does exist, however, as to the veteran's physical condition, the matter is referred to the medical profession for an opinion. These opinions are, of course, confidential, but if the hon. member for Lake Centre will supply the name of the veteran in question, whose total disability is 5 per cent and who has been declined settlement, the full facts of the case can be made available to him.


George Randolph Pearkes: There was a lot of talk going on at the time you were carrying these items, Mr. Chairman, and it was impossible to follow them. Item 553, which has to do with
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merchant seamen, is one of the matters which is now before the veterans affairs committee, dealing with their rehabilitation. I would ask that this item stand until that committee reports.


William Ross Macdonald: Item 553 was reported as carried.


George Randolph Pearkes: No.


William Ross Macdonald: Order. The item was reported as carried and the statement was sent to the officials of the house. However I think it is agreeable to all concerned that the matter be discussed further in the committee. I say that in order to keep the record straight in Hansard.
Item 532 was not carried.


Milton Fowler Gregg: That was allowed to stand until a later date to permit discussion arising out of the report of the parliamentary committee.


Howard Charles Green: Items 532 and 553 are both standing?


Milton Fowler Gregg: That is correct.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.



DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
HO. Departmental administration, $272,600.
Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: Last night I asked the minister if he would give us the figures as to the amounts outstanding of credits which had been extended. If the minister can give us those figures over the last three years, or since the end of the war, showing the amount of credit which has been extended, I should like him to do so. But if he has them for some shorter period than that, I would not object.
Right Hon.C.D. HOWE (Minister of Trade and Commerce): I have certain rather comprehensive statements here. It might be easier to put them on Hansard, but I will read them just to give the idea. To Belgium the total loan was
8100,000,000; the cash advanced to June 12, 1948, was $67,000,000. The interest to that time was consolidated, so that -the gross debt today is about $67,707,753.42. The balance of the loan is roughly $33,000,000. It expires on December 31, 1948.
The loan to China was $60,000,000. The cash advanced to date-and I will just give the

round figures-was $42,600,000. Orders have been placed at an estimated cost of $8,000,000 against the loan.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does that mean that it would now be up to $50,000,000?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; something more than that, as a matter of fact. Commitments are $8,000,000. That loan expires on December 31, 1948.
To Czechoslovakia the total loan was $19,000,000, of which $15,800,000 has been advanced; and there are outstanding orders of about $400,000.
With regard to France, there was a total loan of $242,500,000, of which $215,500,000 has been advanced; and the $27,000,000 balance has been committed. That loan expires on June 30, 1948 and it is all expended.
With regard to the Netherlands, there was a loan of $125,000,000 of which $119,000,000 has been advanced. That loan expired on April 30, 1948.
To the Netherlands East Indies there was a loan of $15,000,000, of which $13,250,000 has been spent. There are outstanding commitments of $750,000.
There was a loan to Norway of $30,000,000 of which $22,000,000 has been spent, with outstanding commitments of $3,000,000. That loan expires on June 24, 1948. It expires next week.
There was a loan to Russia of $3,000,000, of which $2,866,000 has been spent. That loan has expired.
The loan to the United Kingdom amounted to $1,260 million, of which $1,015 million has been spent. The payments under that loan have been suspended for the time being. It is hoped that they can be resumed before many weeks go by.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: You mean advances?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. It is hoped that advances under the loan can be resumed before many months go by. It depends upon the economic situation in Canada, which again depends on the size of the crop and other factors. There is $235 million unexpended under the British loan. The net result is that we have lent $1,250 million to the United Kingdom, and $594 million to the other countries. I think that is the story.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the situation with regard to the other unadvanced portion? For instance, let us take Belgium, with regard to which the figure is $33,000,000. Would the situation there be similar to that with regard to the United

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Kingdom? That is to say, as to the United Kingdom, the minister said that he hoped to resume advances.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. Belgium is in a rather peculiar position. They have bought about as much for cash as they have bought for credit, and they have not called on the balance of the $33,000,000. Belgian trade with Canada has stepped up quite well, and apparently they are getting on all right without drawing down the full amount of the loan.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What was the understanding as to Britain being able to take up our loan at the time it was made? Have we been obliged to disappoint them, or have they been able to make other arrangements?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. It was intended to be a loan over five years. The drawings have been a great deal faster than were anticipated when the loan was made. It is that fact, that we expected about $250 million a year and we actually got over SI billion in two years, that has thrown our economic calculations somewhat out of gear.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Has somebody else taken up the slack? Has the Marshall plan stepped in, in time to enable them to avoid any serious embarrassment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can hardly discuss the
United Kingdom's position. I know it is difficult.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like to know if I am correct in my understanding that the minister is not able to give us any figure as to the exact savings in United States exchange made by reason of the 25 per cent excise tax. Is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not that figure. I do not see how it could possibly be segregated.


Mr. GILLIS:: I should like to make a few general observations on this item. I know I would not be permitted to do so anywhere else. What I have in mind has to do with the general administration of the minister's department. I refer to the recent increase permitted in both raw and fabricated steel, ranging from $5 to $12.50 a ton.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This would come more
properly under reconstruction and supply, which deals with controls on steel. I have no objection, but I shall have more information when we reach that department, as I hope we shall in a few minutes.


Clarence Gillis: That is all right if it is more convenient to the minister.


Thomas Langton Church: On this question of departmental administration, I intended last night, when the hon. member for Lethbridge got the floor, to mention two or three small matters in connection with this vote. I will take the opportunity now and I promise you, Mr. Chairman, that I will not detain the committee for more than five or six minutes. I appreciate the work that has been done by the present minister as well as by his predecessor, evidence of which was visible in the international trade fair that we witnessed last week. It was a wonderful world's fair exhibition of our trade and commerce and I hope it will be an annual event.
The minister has effected some improvements in our trade with the mother country. In this connection, I should like to refer to an editorial that appeared in one of the local newspapers this morning, the Ottawa Citizen, in reference to something on trade I said the other night. I would suggest that it would be well if this newspaper could do something to promote the progress of its own city, as the city from which I come has progressed in different directions. This editorial did not quote one word of what I said on trade the other night with reference to preferential trade or the great loss that this country sustained when we tossed overboard valuable principles of trade in committing ourselves to Bretton Woods and the United States loan at Geneva in 1945. All the well-tried economic principles by which this country has progressed ever since confederation have been discarded. The other night I was simply trying to justify the national policy that has been responsible for the growth of commerce in Canada. I was not advocating the national policy of 1878. What I was advocating was a national policy for the living and not for the dead. The national policy, however, has done a great deal for Canada. It got us steady markets with our best customers, not north and south, but east and west. It got us markets throughout the world for our grain, foodstuffs and various other commodities.
I do not object to the criticism of any local newspaper, and I do not mind whether I am called Progressive, Liberal, or Conservative. They may call me whatsoever they like; they cannot say, nor have they ever said, one word against progressive measures I promoted here for many years. If they would get their own town to take some progressive steps it would be better. The city from which I come made progress twenty-five years ago in connection with the street railway, light, power and hydro, and if they would do the same for their own town in housing and in various-
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other municipal ways it would be better for all concerned. Fifteen to twenty years ago we saw the -wooden houses across the river, in Hull, when I was urging a national housing policy for this country and opposing the giveaway of power in 1927 in the Ottawa district.
Progress is what is wanted in this country today. What we want is progress and principle, not peanuts and party. That applies to our friends of the Citizen. One of their staff went to Japan and then founded the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Let them look after their own progress and never mind mine. As I said last night, I do not change my polities, nor do I veer from my principles. I have been in this house for a considerable time and have consistently advocated certain principles, and I stick to those principles whether I am in the house or out of it.
Regarding this particular department, I made reference the other night to certain improvements which I think can be effected, and I never referred to the Ontario election. I never mentioned it. What I did say was that a political party that sticks to its principles will never lack for a following, and a political party that has no principles will get nowhere. I was not referring to personalities but to the principle at stake. In the past, the party to which I belong has consistently followed economic principles of protection that have done a great deal for the country; our own work for our own workmen; our own markets for our own production. I admit, of course, that the government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier also did a great deal for Canada, but did not alter the tariff much. I say that freely because I am not a hidebound party man; far from it. But I believe in certain mneiples of trade, certain economic principles 7hich in my opinion should be carried out l this country; and I do not believe that Sir Wilfrid Laurier departed very much, in atters of trade and commerce, from the lieies of his predecessors, f did not believe in union government, and Jo not now believe in the form of government that is in existence today in Manitoba and British Columbia. But that is none of my business; it is a matter for the electors of Manitoba and British Columbia respectively to choose their own government. I will say, however, that as a result of the policy in Manitoba and British Columbia there is but one alternative for a voter there, and that is the party of our hon. friends to the left.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Hear, hear.


Thomas Langton Church: I fully appreciate the
ability of my hon. friend, who is his party's whip. He is active in the house and is very likeable in many ways. For that matter, so are all my hon. friends to the left. But when it comes to principles of trade and commerce, I repeat, we of this party have never changed our ideas. They can call us anything they like, but we stand by our principles. I was too modest the other night to admit that I was a progressive, but I suggest that there could be greater progress in the city of Ottawa. It is badly needed. As regards a public utility here, the stock was 17; it is now 42J in the stock markets, and it is still going up.
Last fall I delivered an address to the pupils of one of our schools and I spoke somewhat in these terms: "Some of you will very soon find yourselves on the thorny path of public life. Do not forget, while paying the closest attention to the welfare of your constituents, the important principle that nothing that, anyone says should alter your own opinion of doing what you think is right." I said to those students to remember that the greatest crime that had been committed in all history was the crime perpetrated by one who paid too much heed to popular opinion and the populace, and that was Pontius Pilate. One fact that should be borne in mind by leaders in every walk of life, and by politicians the world over in these dangerous times is this. It is not cleverness but independence of character that counts, that independence of character which is so often lacking not only in our own country, among our own public men, but in many other countries the world over. It is the lack of that independence which has led to the present state of affairs. We find that politicians the world over tend to follow rather than to lead public opinion, for it is easy and more profitable to swim with the tide than against it. If you go against the tide you may be submerged.
I do not know that I have much more to say with reference to that article which commented upon what I had to say-without quoting a word of it-about trade and commerce. I have only this to say, that it would be far better if the leaders of all parties decided, instead of keeping their ear to the ground so much, to lead public opinion rather than follow it. That is the attitude we need. It is this cause and effect that loses elections.
I voted against Bretton Woods because I saw what was coming; I foresaw the disaster in connection with our dollar. I knew what the dollar situation would be. I also criticized the

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United States loan. In my opinion, we lost our best customer when we threw overboard the principles of preferential trade. By it, our province, more than any other, western Ontario particularly, did a great deal to improve trade between this country and Britain, as well as between Canada and all the other countries on the seven seas. Those hon. members who saw the magnificent exhibits in the international trade fair the other day at the exhibition grounds in Toronto must have rejoiced to see the extent to which the trade of Canada has been and could be developed with the sterling countries by empire trade.
I wish the present Minister of Trade and Commerce every success in his work, now that he has taken over this department. I recognize that he did a great deal of good work during the war. I appreciate that and I am fair enough to say it. He has worked hard and I hope he will be a success. I trust that as soon as he can he will rid this country of its austerity program, restore preferential empire trade, do what he can to rectify the dollar situation and give to the small businessman and the big businessman as well a chance to flourish and to conduct his business in his own way by free enterprise, which is very necessary at the present time.
I was sorry we did not stay in the sterling area, largely because people voted down these free trade and unrestricted reciprocity policies away back in 1911. Today we have nothing but unrestricted reciprocity, free trade with the United States. So much is this true that Time magazine, which I quoted recently, said that we are becoming the 49th state of the union.
These are very involved matters for trade and commerce. This is the 109th day of the session. It has been a strenuous session and the minister has worked hard. All the ministers have done that. I appreciate the fact that we have in this party today a party which has given the government substantial aid and support since last December. I hope that we shall have a recess from our duties beginning next Friday night, and that the government of today will see to it that as soon as they can they will restore preferential trade with our best customers, the mother country and the dominions. After all is said and done, that is where the cream of our trade is-and when I say that I refer to trade in manufactured goods, food and other raw commodities.
The resources of Great Britain and her dominions both in manufactured goods and in raw materials are far greater than those of Russia or the United States. As was said by Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Sir John A. Macdonald, the mother country, with the dominions, is our best customer. And there has not been much change in policy since the days of those statesmen. We might add the countries of Europe which were with us in the first war, and which served as a market for our grain and other food products.
I rejoiced to see the exhibition in Toronto recently, because I know it will restore much of the trade we had with the sterling countries.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to say this to
the hon. member for Broadview. I have sat in the house with him for a good many years and he has been here longer than I have. I believe the hon. member has made something of a record in the public life of this country, in that he is impervious to newspaper or any other kind of criticism. He has shown many acts of kindness and done many constructive acts of statesmanship in both municipal and dominion affairs. We know where he stands. He stands for the city from which he comes and for the community he represents. I hope he will be with us for a good many years to come.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: A short time ago the minister mentioned that goods to the value of
8400.000	were to go to Czechoslovakia. Are they still going forward? Has there been any change?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Such orders as are placed are going forward. It is about 8400,000, I believe.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What arrangements have been made for collecting that debt?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Payments are being made when due.


Mr. JACKMAN:: Will the minister make his announcement respecting the United States motion picture industry under the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce or those of Reconstruction and Supply?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have nothing much to add to my previous statement.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The minister said he would make an announcement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I hope to be able to reduce it to paper, but I have not done so yet. Arrangements have been made for a considerable amount of Canadian publicity to be put out at the expense and through the agency of the moving picture industry. Certain shorts have been made by the industry and a few by the government of Canada which are being circulated through United States outlets. A comprehensive plan has been studied and partly
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agreed upon. I am not in a position to announce it today; I wish I were. I think hon. members will agree however that Canada is getting good value for the exchange privileges being allowed the industry in this country.


Howard Charles Green: Last night the minister gave figures with regard to trade between Canada and the United States and between Canada and the United Kingdom. No mention was made of trade between Canada and Australia and New Zealand. On the Pacific coast we are interested in that trade. Would the minister give us some information with regard to it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only 1948 figures I have are for our two principal customers, the United States and the United Kingdom. I believe I have the 1947 figures for other trade. The position of trade with Australia and New Zealand is that their imports are being reduced substantially by an austerity program very much like that of England. Certain dollar funds are allocated to Canada, and imports are cut back to keep within the over-all allocation. However, we are shipping the usual exports to Australia and New Zealand, although in smaller quantities than was the case previously. Exports to British dominions, which would be largely Australia, New' Zealand and South Africa, stood at $17,300,000 a month, average shipments. In 1946 the figure was $14,300,000. Exports to Australia in 1947, I find, were $60,294,201, and imports in that year were $14,222,487. Those are the largest exports on record, and the rate of imports is about the average.


Howard Charles Green: I am keenly interested in this, because about a month ago there was a press dispatch reporting a submission that was made to the government by the Canadian exporters' association. The dispatch is dated at Toronto, May 17, and states:
The Canadian exporters' association, in a submission to trade minister Howe, said that the falling-off of export sales to British empire markets is so alarming that steps should be taken to counteract it. Canada, the submission says, finds herself in the peculiar position of being the sole member of the British commonwealth unable to trade more or less freely in empire markets which have become increasingly important to Canada in the development of our world trade.
Then the dispatch goes on to say:
Unless some action is taken with alacrity Canadian exporters feel that they might be faced with the permanent loss of the empire markets.
Would the minister make a comment on that dispatch? If conditions are that serious, are any steps being taken by the government to meet the situation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Our exports to empire markets at the present time are, I believe, running the highest in peacetime history. There is a cutting back of manufactured goods. That has been noticed by exporters who are interested in manufactured goods. When Canada ran into dollar difficulties the first thing that was cut off was manufactured goods such as automobiles and goods of that kind. It is the same in Australia and New Zealand. As a rule, the cut comes in manufactured goods of the semiluxury type. Those industries are feeling it badly, just as are the people who are accustomed to ship to Canada. But our over-all export position to British countries is good.


John Thomas Hackett: Is it not true that
Australia became industrialized during the war and is now producing to a substantial extent many of the commodities that it previously bought in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is true, but not to an extent that would interfere abnormally with Canadian exports. Usually, when new lines are opened up it really stimulates exports from other countries rather than the opposite. The difficulty in Australia at the moment is a lack of dollars and a strict limitation of the expenditure of dollars on this continent.


John Thomas Hackett: When the minister speaks of our export trade and its volume he is including our export trade to Great Britain, much of which is on Canadian credits.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We include exports to Great Britain, because Great Britain is our second largest market. We include exports to South Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand and the British West Indies. The only serious drop is in our exports to Australia and New Zealand and: the British West Indies, and in those cases the drop is chiefly in manufactured goods, although they are also buying less lumber and other raw materials than formerly.


John Thomas Hackett: If we exclude or write off the credits, has there been a drop in purchasing by Great Britain as compared with before the war?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Britain is not drawing on credits at the moment.


John Thomas Hackett: She has been, according to the figures the minister gave.


Clarence Decatur Howe: She was drawing until the middle of April; in that period the total was $52,500,000. At the moment they are not drawing on credits. We cannot say when they will resume, but it may be just as soon as our financial position permits.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Howard Charles Green: Has any attempt been made to improve our trade with Australia and New Zealand? 13 there any way by which Canada can help them overcome their shortage of Canadian dollars?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know of any. We are most anxious to buy anything from Australia and New Zealand that they can ship. We have actually promoted imports from those two countries, but there is only a limited amount of goods that they can ship here. If they could ship sugar it would help a great deal, but all the sugar goes to the United Kingdom. Anything that we can buy there we are buying. Of course that is the only real way to build up trade under conditions such as we have today. The balance of trade is very much in our favour.


Howard Charles Green: Fourteen million dollars as against 860,000,000.


Clarence Decatur Howe: About that.


Howard Charles Green: The people on the Pacific coast are also interested in trade with China. I understand that there have been some difficulties in opening up that trade and the people on the coast are complaining. What is the trouble there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nothing is coming out of China; exports are almost nil. As my hon. friends know, China is suffering from an unlimited inflation and civil war and production has just dropped to negligible proportions.


Howard Charles Green: Are any goods going from Canada to China?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In 1947 we exported nearly $35,000,000 worth and we imported from China $2,300,000 worth.


Jean-François Pouliot: There is something more important- than trade with China and the Fiji islands or other countries that cannot send exports to Canada. I refer to our whole trade policy. I pay a tribute to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I am ready to stand by him to the limit, because I consider that his task at the present time is vital for the welfare of this country, provided that trade is real and not imaginary.
I agree entirely with the hon. member for Stanstead in the questions he has asked with regard to the trade policies of this government. During the war it was impossible for me to find out what exports were being paid for and what exports we were paying for ourselves. That sort of trade was a false trade; it was not trade at all. Santa Claus does not trade with anybody, he gives things away to children. He cannot be called a general merchant
or a businessman. Santa Claus is a giver, and Canada was acting as Santa Claus to the United Kingdom during and after the war.
I do not consider that trade financed by credits which are obtained by taxation is real trade. Our trade policy should be realistic. If countries have not the currency to purchase our products, let us get their goods. Let us trade with all countries in the world that have goods to send us. Let us exchange goods; let us barter goods, and then we can consider paying the difference with some kind of currency.
The idea of trade within the British empire is detrimental to real trade. In matters of trade England is not a friend; the United States is not a friend; France is not a friend; they are all competitors. If Canada has not the ability to sell her products in competition with those of England, to discuss with everybody the purchase of Canadian goods in preference to British goods, then it is useless to have a Department of Trade and Commerce. If Canada in matters of trade is to be like the little porpoise attached to the mother porpoise and following her through the seven seas, then let us abandon the discussion of trade and admit that we are just serfs without dignity, that we are not interested in the welfare and progress of this country.
Why do we have British preference conferences? They were just reminders of the old colonial trade policy when it was forbidden to Canada to trade with any country except England. When those barriers disappeared we had free trade with the United States, during which time Canada was more prosperous than she had ever been before or has been since. Why are we not realistic with regard to trade? Why do we think we have to trade only under the shade of Great Britain? Why do we not give every possible encouragement to our own trade commissioners and consuls general and free them from the influence of the United Kingdom ambassadors? One of the great errors made by the Prime Minister was when he said, at the time the consulate general was set up in New York, that the consul general would confer with the British consul general. What a mistake. Is there any other country in the world that does the same thing? Australia competes with England; New Zealand competes with England; South Africa competes with England. Every country, except small islands in the Caribbean seas or the South seas, is bold enough to face England and fight her in the markets of the world, and by doing that they are more respected by the merchants of London and Manchester and other English manufacturing centres than are the bloated colonials we have here who think
Supply-Trade and Commerce



COMMON,

[Stage Direction]
we should creep under the petticoats of Britain to trade on the markets of the world.
Let us be realistic. I want the Minister of Trade and Commerce to be the big boss of his department, just as I want the minister of external affairs to be the big boss of his department. But the purposes of the two departments are entirely different. The aim of the Department of External Affairs is to keep Canada at peace with all the countries of the world, and the aim of the Minister of Trade and Commerce should be to boost the trade of Canada against every competitor, British, American, French, Japanese or that of any other country.
We should stop that false banking policy of advancing money to those who are to buy from us. It is the Canadian taxpayer who pays for these goods, and now our taxes are piled high just on account of those gifts that I was one of the few in this house to denounce during the war, for they were perfectly nonsensical. The Conservative party then led by the former member for York-Sunbury, right down to the last leader of the opposition, never said a word against those policies. They said, let us wait until after the war to settle accounts. Now it is after the war and the same thing continues.
I said to the leader of the C.C.F. party once when he was complaining about high taxation that he had no right to complain about high taxation because he was in favour of that prodigality which has been the cause of our high taxes and strikes and troubles throughout this country. That is that. We must be realistic and keep sentiment out of trade. I said to a Tory imperialist like Mr. Hanson that we should be economically independent of Britain in regard to trade. We may be politically dependent, if the parliament of Canada desires that; but even if we are politically dependent we must be economically independent of England. That is obvious, but a dyed-in-the-wool Tory, a Tory to the core like Mr. Hanson, had nothing to say when this question was raised by myself during the war in the House of Commons. Fanaticism then ran high; the thing was forced through the house, and it is still through. I hope that the minister will be independent of England in matters of trade and that all the trade commissioners and consuls general under him will not act in virtue of instructions that come from the officials of external affairs but will act under instructions that come from himself, and that they will be independent of the English ambassador and the English high commissioner and of every British official where there is no Canadian ambassador.
[Ur. Pouliot.]
I know the Minister of Trade and Commerce has made enough sacrifices during the war and after the war to convince me that he wants to make a success of his job and that he wants to be just as successful as Minister of Trade and Commerce as he was as Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. I wish him good luck. I hope that he will succeed; but he will succeed only if there are no obstacles in his way, no obstacles because of undue interventions by other departments and no obstacles coming from uncalled for and untimely sentimentality which is most prejudicial to Canadian interests. It has been prejudicial to Canadian interests in the past, but I hope it will not be prejudicial any longer because the policy will have to be changed. I hope that the minister will understand that I want him to succeed by all means, so that Canada's trade will be firmly established and have a chance to develop in order that once more we may see happy days.
Angus MacInnis: Surely this is old-time stuff we have been listening to, no matter how ferociously it is expressed. Surely it is nonsense today to talk about being economically independent in the matter of trade, particularly for a country like Canada. Surely it is nonsense to say that Australia and New Zealand are in competition today with Britain. Anyone who knows anything about trade knows that the trade of Australia and New Zealand is much more integrated with the trade of Britain than is Canada's trade. I venture to say that New Zealand to 75 per cent of her trade is dependent upon Britain. The people of New Zealand today are rationing themselves so that they can sell goods to Great Britain and buy goods from her. To talk today of carrying on a trade war against any country is the essence of nonsense. We cannot do that. The world is becoming aware of the fact that, instead of competitive trade, there must be co-operative trade. New Zealand and Australia are more dependent, on world trade for their prosperity than is Canada; but Canada, because of the nature of her industry and her resources is tremendously dependent on trade with other countries.
If we made loans to Britain during the war, surely Britain paid for those loans with the blood and sweat and lives of her people. We did not give anything for which we did pot get a return. As a matter of fact, Britain took the blows that would have ultimately fallen on us if she had not taken them. We ought to be proud to have been able to do our share.
There is no sloppy sentimentality in Canada's trade policies as I see them. Surely

Supply-Trade and Commerce
it is not sentiment to be realistic and to understand what must be done in the world we are living in. I am not saying this for the minister's benefit, because I am satisfied that he realizes perhaps much better than I do the necessity of co-operation in trade, and the need for building the economic resources of other countries so that they may trade with us.


John Thomas Hackett: I wanted to ask the
minister something about the trade with China, and I wanted to say a word on trade with Australia. I understood that our exports to China were about $30,000,000. Is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, $34,984,000.


John Thomas Hackett: Will the minister mention two or three of the principal items? Are they lumber and cereals?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The biggest item is wheat flour, $7,000,000; newsprint paper,
S4.000,000; fertilizer, $3,000,000; copper wire, $2,000,000; wheat, $2,000,000; metal-working machinery, $2,000,000; railroad ties, $1,500,000; ships, $1,500,000; machinery and parts, $1,200,000; planks, boards, et cetera, $942,000; aluminum bars, $860,000; mining machinery, $758,000; air compressors and parts, $670,000.


John Thomas Hackett: I understood that a substantial item was armaments. That is what I really wanted to know.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, not in this list.


John Thomas Hackett: Is there any other list in which that would appear?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; about $1,500,000 might be considered armaments; that is all, out of $35,000,000.


John Thomas Hackett: Do the preferential agreements still obtain with Australia?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; no change.


John Thomas Hackett: Are sales to Australia still under the preferences which were negotiated in Ottawa in 1932?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I understood the minister to say that there was a disturbing falling-off in some of our external markets for foreign goods. Is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would it be correct that there is no such falling-off in the natural products markets, that that is still good?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Natural products are in a worldwide short supply, so that if there is a drop in one market they are sold in another market. Necessity is driving all countries to buy raw materials to meet their requirements.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That leads me to ask this question. It seems to me that we talk a great deal about the cost of living and are all worried about it. I read a letter today which interested me, in which it was pointed out much better than I could do it, what seems to be the great trouble into which we have drifted. We have, unintentionally, of course, deprived the countryside of a great many of the people who should be raising food, and in plain words that is largely what is driving up the price of food. Are we out of balance? Have we by our policy so stimulated factory plant, and all that kind of thing, that we have drawn people by high wages into the cities and away from the business of raising food? Are we now in the position where we may find that some of these installations which we have built, no doubt in good faith, may get into trouble and not be able to manufacture their goods? On the other hand, those people who have been drawn into that kind of production might have been producing other things which we need so much at home and which we could also sell abroad. Will the minister tell me how much there is in that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a fact that we are raising far more food now than we ever did in pre-war days, and doing it with fewer men.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Not enough.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Our farms are being highly mechanized, and the labour requirements of producing food are not nearly as high as they were. I know of nothing that is badly out of balance so far as demand and supply of food in Canada are concerned. Our surplus of wheat is less out of proportion than it was before the war, because our population is larger and our consumption is higher. Dairy products seem to be touch and go, but I think they always were. That is about the only marginal product that I know of.


John Thomas Hackett: The minister has mentioned dairy products. He may tell me that he is not the Minister of Agriculture. I know that. But I have endeavoured, and without success, to learn from the Minister of Agriculture what justification there is for the policy that has shorn the hills of the eastern townships of their dairy herds. The price of feeds and butter were fixed; the margin be-

Supply-Trade and Commerce
tween the two was insufficient to enable the dairy farmer to live. If the minister can throw any light on that situation I shall be grateful to him.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am afraid we are out of the field and off the subject. I am not an expert on agriculture, as my hon. friend knows; I am a city man.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: The minister mentioned the fact that there was a falling off in our exports of manufactured goods. Is it noticeable in any particular line? Perhaps the minister can enlarge on that a little bit. I would be interested to know in what manufactured goods there is a falling off in exports.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a market for manufactured goods. If they fall off in one market we ship the goods to another market. Anything that Canada can manufacture today, with very few exceptions, can be sold in some market. But in speaking of a particular market such as Australia or New Zealand, there is a falling off in shipments of manufactured goods to those markets.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: No over-all falling off.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; quite the reverse.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: We still have a market for everything we can manufacture?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Pretty well.


John Thomas Hackett: Does the minister want the committee to understand that there is a market for our manufactured goods outside the stimulated and bonused market, if I may use that phrase, to whom we have advanced credits? Are we not dependent upon those to whom we advanced credits to buy our surplus products?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, no. Far and away the biggest market we have, and always has been for a great many years, is the United States. We sell in South America; we sell in the countries of Europe. A good many of them pay cash. Practically none of the credits is operative today. We are still selling our goods and expect to do so. We are an efficient country. Our goods are well priced for any market, we have been able to sell them, and we expect to continue to sell them.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: It seems to me that the record speaks for itself. When the war ended we lost no time in sending help to the United Kingdom and to our old customers in Europe. People talk about this stupendous help being given under the Marshall plan, ERP. Since the war, Canada has been extending relief to Europe, in proportion to our population, at more than twice the rate of the Marshall plan; well over twice. We have a record unequalled by any other country in the world. There was one purpose in it, and that was to aid in the recovery of the United Kingdom and in the recovery of our traditional customers in Europe. I am surprised that anyone would question it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I have one. more question to ask, and it is in connection with the ban which we have placed on certain goods coming from Great Britain. I spoke about this before, and the minister said it came under the Minister of Finance. For instance, I wonder if the people of Great Britain appreciate the reason-and if there is a reason I cannot see it-for the ban being placed on any of the goods that they can manufacture and send to this country. It is all very well to talk in millions of dollars; nevertheless plenty of $5,000 items count just the same. I should like to see that ban taken off British goods coming to this country. I see that ban as something that does not help to foster good will between the two countries. I never could see any real reason why that ban should be on goods coming from any member country of the commonwealth.


Howard Charles Green: What about trade between Canada and Japan? In February of this year the Vancouver Daily Province issued a leading article entitled, "Mac Arthur pledges speed-up of Canadian-Japanese trade." At that time they had apparently been in touch

Supply-Trade and Commerce
with him and he had made some statement with regard to the opening up of trade between Canada and Japan. What is the present position? _


Clarence Decatur Howe: All the trade with Japan is done through SCAP as they call it, or the supreme command, allied powers. It is the American military administration. We do a fair amount of business with the administration, but you can hardly call it trade with Japan. It is trade with the United States army in Japan.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister tell us what the approximate figures are?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a small amount, covering coal, wheat and so on. We shall have the figures in a minute. It is a matter of a million or two, I think, on items such as coal and wheat.


Howard Charles Green: Sales?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Sales or purchases?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Sales.


John Thomas Hackett: Is the coal from Vancouver island?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is from Alberta, and perhaps from Vancouver island. It goes out through Vancouver.


Mr. HAZEN:: The minister has said that there has been no falling off of our export of our manufactured goods; that if we cannot send them to one country, there is such a demand that we can send them to another. Do manufactured goods include processed foods? The reason I ask that question is that I understand that processors of fish are having considerable difficulty in disposing of their products.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have referred to that matter several times. It is difficult to sell fish when every country in the world touches the ocean and catches its own fish. As they get back to normal, fish is the first item to suffer. However, fish from the maritime provinces is being sold and, as far as I know, at a good price.


Douglas King Hazen: I was wondering if the minister would make an exception in the case of processed fish.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does my hon. friend call processed fish "manufactured goods"?


Douglas King Hazen: I should like to know what the minister calls it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not call it that. The hon. member can call it what he likes.


Douglas King Hazen: The minister says he does not call it that. That is what I want to find out. When he used the phrase "manufactured goods" he did not include processed fish. That clears that point up as far as I am concerned.
I should like to ask the minister another question and to get an answer to it, if I could.
I do not know whether I am quite in order but the question is this. I am informed that a certain make of automobile manufactured in Great Britain sells in the United States for approximately 81,300, whereas in Canada the price is approximately 81,800. What I should like to know is how this difference in price is explained? Why must we pay so much more for this car in Canada than is paid in the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not aware of the facts.
I do not know.


William Henry Golding: Shall the item
carry ?


Douglas King Hazen: No; just a minute. I have given the minister the facts.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Is the hon. member sure he has given me the facts?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Show us the documents. We get all kinds of these rumours.


Douglas King Hazen: I have given the facts as they have been given to me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I know; but are they the
facts?


Douglas King Hazen: Does the minister say that
the facts as I have given them are not correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I say that I doubt if they are correct.


William Henry Golding: Shall the item carry?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Before the item is carried, as I was asked in another session to table the list of availabilities, I might make a little statement on that subject preparatory to tabling the list tomorrow.
I have already given to hon. members the general headings used in these programs, and the information has also been made available to Canadian exporters through the medium of "Foreign Trade", the official publication of the Department of Trade and Commerce.
I have previously expressed the view that it was not desirable to publish the quantities and dollar values because of their susceptibility to misinterpretation. I must emphasize that the quantities are estimates, and estimates only, of what we believe, given certain conditions, our exporters would have available for
Supply-Trade and Commerce

shipment to Europe. The quantities, however, depend1 on many factors: for instance, the weather where agricultural produce is concerned; the availability of steel where manufactured products are concerned; and also the extent to which manufacturers may have made prior commitments. Furthermore, the statement is not exhaustive. The important recovery items have been included) in accordance with the specific request of the EGA, but information regarding a number of other commodities is being constantly made available to participating countries through our trade commissioners and to ECA officials in Washington through the Canadian embassy. With this emphasis, however, I am now prepared to table this statement which, I repeat, is not a forecast of our exports to these countries, but is an estimate of availabilities.
These estimates have not only been made available to ECA officials in Washington-


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: What is ECA? There are so many of these things that I have difficulty in identifying them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Economic co-operation administration. It is the Marshall plan; it is the operating part of the Marshall plan.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I was not
trying to be smart. We have so many of these things that I cannot remember them all.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know'. I cannot remember them myself. As I say these estimates have not only been made available to ECA officials in Washington, but have also been sent to our Canadian government trade commissioners in each of the participating countries. The trade commissioners make this information available to the pertinent authorities in each of the participating countries who are responsible for drawing up their country's import requirements, and they invite these officials to indicate Canada as a preferred source of supply for those commodities which w'e know we can deliver advantageously and in competition with other countries. However, it must be realized that no one in Canada knows more about the availability of Canadian commodities than do Canadian exporters themselves; and the Department of Trade and Commerce has, therefore, repeatedly advised Canadian exporters not to depend entirely on government assistance, but rather to follow normal commercial procedures and sell their produce to European countries through their European representatives. If the commodities are such that they can be considered as recovery items, there is every likelihood that such transactions will eventually be financed by ECA dollars. It follows, therefore, that unless the Canadian

exporter is attempting to sell that type of product w'hich is recognized as a recovery item, it is not likely that he will obtain any direct ERP business. There will, howrever, be other indirect ways in which he will benefit.
I have here the printed list of Canadian commodities available to ERP countries which I will table on the orders of the day tomorrow.


William Henry Golding: Shall the item carry?


Howard Charles Green: I think the main commodities which were eating up our United States dollar funds were coal, oil, cotton, iron and steel; at least those are the four commodities set out in the advertisement published by the government last fall upon the announcement of the austerity program. Can the minister tell us what the position is at the present time with regard to imports of those particular commodities? Has there been any marked change in the quantities imported, or just what is the picture at the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Those imports depend on the economic activity of Canada, which is high.


John Thomas Hackett: Upon the controls, too.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. Those are necessary raw materials. For instance, we must have petroleum, and I am happy to say that the outlook for the future is greatly improved by the new discoveries in Alberta. The Leduc field may make a difference of as much as S100 million a year in United States funds by 1951, and that is encouraging.


Howard Charles Green: By 1951?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, and progressively up to that in the meantime. As far as coal is concerned, our properties are working to full capacity. We are exporting a certain amount of coal for United States dollars, which helps to offset imports, but our geography is such that there is a limit on the amount of coal that can be used from western Canada in central Canada, and I would say imports of coal would be about the same this year as last year.


John Thomas Hackett: Steel must be down.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The reason is we cannot get it. We are short of steel.


John Thomas Hackett: Short of dollars.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have the dollars to pay for it, but we cannot get the steel. It is in short supply.


Howard Charles Green: What about cotton and iron?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Cotton depends on the activity in textile manufacturing, and it is about
the same as last year.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


John Thomas Hackett: We are bringing some from Britain?


Clarence Decatur Howe: These are our basic raw materials and we have to have them.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any prospect of the development of iron ore in northern Quebec making a difference in importations from the United States? If so, to what extent?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Steep Rock has made a difference. We produced over one million tons of iron ore last year. The Sault Ste. Marie Helen mine is stepping up its output each year.


Howard Charles Green: What does it produce?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Around 600,000 tons, I believe; and of course we have a great potential in northern Quebec. The trouble is that it is difficult of access. It means a large investment in railroad facilities and harbour facilities before the product can be marketed commercially.


Howard Charles Green: How many years will it take?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Three or four years of development work.


Howard Charles Green: Do the deposits there compare in extent with Steep Rock?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are much greater. They have proved up over 200,000,000 tons of iron ore already, and it is known that there are over 300.000.000 tons.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Good
quality?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, 64 per cent hematite.


John Thomas Hackett: Has the minister any information about falling off in shipping in and out of the port of Montreal this season, and in and out of the port of Vancouver?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Our Canadian fleet is busy, but I presume my hon. friend refers not to the Canadian fleet but to all fleets. The volume of exports this year is about the same as last, and I presume shipping would be about the same.


Arthur Leroy Smith: One question about Steep Rock. Are we milling, or whatever the proper word is, that steel in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Are we not shipping concentrates across to the other side and buying steel back?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is not exactly a fair statement. Every steel company uses ore from several sources. Different ores are used
for different purposes, and all ore that is mined around the great lakes goes into what is called the great lakes ore pool. We sell the ore into the pool and it goes to dealers who handle that ore. Some comes to Canada, but the larger part goes to the United States. It is good quality ore, sold for United States dollars. We either get the ore or we get the United States dollar equivalent which we spend to buy other ore. There is no great significance in shipping Canadian ore to a Canadian steel plant when you have a situation such as exists on the great lakes.


Arthur Leroy Smith: The major portion does go south of the line in the form of ore or concentrates, or something of that kind, and we get it back here. What I have in mind is this. Where we have fuels in western Canada-I notice the Steep Rock people are draining another lake and hope to double their production within a comparatively short time-


John Horne Blackmore: Would the hon. member speak louder? I should like to hear what
he is saying.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am glad you think what I am saying is worthwhile.


John Horne Blackmore: I always think what you say is worthwhile; you are from Alberta.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am getting
flattery today; I got spanked the other day, I am glad to think these things alternate anyway. What I was saying was this. If we are to develop at Steep Rock, obviously they are not doing that with any small amount of ore, and is it not a possibility that, with the growth there which might easily be expected, and with fuel lying from that point not so far away, one might reasonably anticipate rather a large steel plant somewhere between those two bases of supply? That is not all imagination, is it? Is it not a possibility, the realization of which we can perhaps look forward to?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a possibility, but my hon. friend knows that the Mesabi ore deposits back of the Duluth area have been coming through in great volume, and there is no steel plant near Mesabi, or near Duluth.


Arthur Leroy Smith: It is running out.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Y'es, and we hope that Steep Rock is helping to take its place. I do not know that it follows, because you have ore in the country, that you must necessarily have steel in the country. If you had a combination of ore and coal in the same locality,
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undoubtedly you would have steel manufacture, but it is difficult to imagine either hauling coal from Alberta to the head of the lakes or hauling ore from Steep Rock to Alberta or some intermediate point.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
462. Export permit branch, $124,260.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: When the import-export act was passed we had a statement from some of the staff, indicating the basis on -which export permits were granted and the extent to which the ordinary conduct of business was being supervised by the officials. I wish the minister would say a word or two on that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are two bases for controls; one is the basis of shortage. There are certain commodities we must keep in the country to an extent sufficient to keep our own economy going.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Notably?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Steel is an excellent example. When it comes to permitting the export of steel in the form of manufactured goods we tend to give a preference to the most highly manufactured, for instance, steel for at least
11,000	a ton. Therefore we permit the export of steel in the form of locomotives and in various other forms-


John Thomas Hackett: Machinery?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Machine tools, and agricultural machinery, which is a sort of border-line case. We do not get very much for steel per ton in agricultural implements, but they are badly needed abroad and we allow them to be exported. That, however, is the criterion. If someone wants to export tin cans we are not allowing them to do so. We do not allow manufactures which mean very little other than rolling plate into some form and sending it out.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Rails?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; nails are absolutely
barred.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I said rails.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have rail capacity. It is a finished product made both at Sydney and at Sault Ste. Marie. It is one of the few products they can make; and therefore we allow them to manufacture into rails steel not required for other purposes. If there is an excess
fMr. Howe.]
beyond the requirements of our own railways we allow it to be exported. There is very little exported, though. Most of the rails manufactured at both places are used in Canada.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I take it that the fact that there is a decrease in the item indicates that the business of controlling exports is not growing too fast. May I take it that perhaps it is actually lessening.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have taken a good many items off control, as they have moved into adequate supply. At the end of December we had 520 articles under control, and at June 15 we had only 466. The list is going down.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is fish on the export list? An article appeared in the Montreal Star, which stated that dealers in Puerto Rico or Costa Rica-I am not sure which it was, but it was one of those Central American countries -were complaining about the Canadian fish going to their country. It was coming in short supply, and they felt that this was because the people bringing it in wanted to keep the price up.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is not and never has been any export control on fish.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I suggest that the minister's department should check that complaint.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall do so.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: In view of the fact that several large pulp operators in Ontario are exporting raw pulp, is it necessary for them to get permits to do so from either the dominion or provincial government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Pulpwood, yes; manufactured wood pulp, no.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: Does the minister not think it would be more beneficial if that pulpwood were made into paper here, instead of the raw material being shipped?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: Will the government take steps to see if it can be done?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The Ontario government is doing it now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It means building more paper mills. They are being built right along.


John Alpheus Charlton: What is the situation with regard to the export of wheat, oats, barley and buckwheat?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All wheat is exported and sold abroad through the Canadian wheat board. This being a year of a short crop, it is chiefly being delivered to the United Kingdom to fill

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an existing contract. Any wheat we have surplus to that is being sold in other traditional markets. Our difficulty is not to sell wheat; it is to find enough wheat to fill our obligations.
We had a short crop of coarse grains, and it was estimated that our supplies of oats and barley would not be more than enough to meet domestic requirements. We find at the end of the year that we have a small surplus of about ten million bushels of oats and about the same amount of barley, which at the present time is being sold in the world market at the best prices obtainable.
We have allowed rye to move freely. It is not a food grain in Canada.


John Thomas Hackett: It is a beverage grain.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, not much of that, either.


Arthur Leroy Smith: No whisky is made out of rye now. Do not let us get this mixed up.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Rye has nothing to do with rye whisky, I know.


Arthur Leroy Smith: That is right.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Flax seed has been under control, and under the international allocation. We dispose of our flax seed as directed by the international food organization. Just now we have a small surplus and are selling it freely in the rvorld market.


John Alpheus Charlton: What about buckwheat?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Buckwheat is not an export commodity. It is fed to hens.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Is 'the department still charging for the permit in connection with coarse grains the difference between the Canadian and export prices?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Where there is a pool, as there is in wheat, oats and barley, an equalization fee is charged where grain is sold to other than contract countries. For example, if a man wishes to sell oats in the United States he is charged1 the difference between the domestic price and the export price and pays an equalization fee. The money so recovered is put into the oats pool.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Is he charged for his permit?


Clarence Decatur Howe: He is charged the equalization fee.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Out of the amount of this item I see that $98,400 is for temporary assistance. Would the minister explain why the expenditure for temporary assistance is about 99 per cent of the total vote?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The branch is a temporary one. We hope that export controls are a passing phase of the Canadian economy. Therefore we cannot put on too many permanent employees to administer a temporary job.


John Bracken: How much oats and barley went to the United States from this country last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry I have not that figure, but I shall be glad to make an announcement on the point when the orders of the day are called.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-	[DOT]
1)07. Departmental administration, $1,009,992.
["That pursuant to the special order made this day, private bills Nos. 366' to 391 inclusive be now read a first and second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous and private bills."]
John Ritchie MacNicol: I should think the coal problem comes under the departmental administration item?


Mr. McILRAITH:: That is item 396.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Under the rule we have followed, the hon. member may discuss anything he likes under the departmental administration item.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, I wish to speak about coal. From about the middle of March to the end of the month people in Ontario who were users of coal were still in a daze over the trouble they had to obtain it during the winter. I was one of those people. The problem of coal had a great deal to do with the recent provincial election. People w'ere still exasperated over their inability to get coal, and from reading in the daily papers that they had better place their orders immediately for next winter's supply.
Quite a number of people in Ontario-I have forgotten exactly how many-got together and consulted with some gentlemen in Toronto about holding a dinner meeting here in Ottawa so as to bring before the authorities the absolute necessity for Canada to make every possible effort to produce coal in this country, particularly for use in the two central provinces. The other provinces either have coal or are close to a supply of it.
On April 28, as a result of the organization of coal users, a big dinner was held at the Chateau Laurier hotel in Ottawa. I have forgotten whether the chairman was there-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was not there.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I know the minister was not; lie sent me a note saying he could not attend. However, his parliamentary assistant was there. That evening 206 distinguished men from all parts of Canada, and two ladies,


John Thomas Hackett: How much would that cost?


John Ritchie MacNicol: About 11,500,000 or $2,000,000. That does not mean anything when one considers what could be brought out and what it would save in United States dollars. At the present time we are importing $150 million worth of United States coal. We bring in four to five million tons of anthracite coal from the United States, mostly to the Ontario market. For that we pay $150 million in United States funds, plus the freight charges to bring it to the border, which totals another $75 million. There is a grand total of approximately $225 million in real United States coin that is paid out every year.
We would not be able to save all of that in a year or two, but the sooner we start to try to save it, the better it will be for our dollar situation. Even if Sir Albert Braithwaite could produce only two million tons of hard coal next year, it would mean a great deal. Some people in the department try to tell me it is not ham coal. I have read a report from the department, a report I do not like at all. It does not strike me as an honest effort-I do not mean it is dishonest-to produce Canadian coal for the Ontario market. If we can buy four million tons a year of hard coal from Alberta, what a tremendous business that would mean back and forth between Alberta, Ontario and Quebec, and think what it would mean in Canadian employment and in Canadian freight. The Canadian railroads now get only $5 a ton for hauling United States coal from the border.


John Thomas Hackett: How does the coal compare in B.T.U.?


John Ritchie MacNicol: One hundred per cent. I have seen engineers' analyses, and they show that the coal is very high in B.T.U. and very low in ash, a good coal from every point of view.


Arthur Leroy Smith: And low in moisture.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And low in moisture. I am hoping that the hon. member for Calgary West, who must know Alberta coal much better than I do, will support what I say in this regard. It is a No. 1 coal and would save the situation in the central provinces, and save also many millions of United States dollars.
The last clause of this report says:
The commission is convinced that if these ventures-
That is these two big mining areas in the Alberta foothills.
-result in the opening of new mines, the coals produced will exhibit marked friability, thus presenting serious marketing problems.
I do not think the man who wrote that knows the first thing about it. He was not talking about the coal I am talking about. I take the statement of those who have had to do with it. I take the statement of Sir Albert Braithwaite, who has no axe to grind except to help Canada produce coal. There is a lot behind this story, if it all came out, and it would be a sorry story if all I have heard is true.
At that same meeting a capable minister of this government, the Minister of Agriculture, made an outstanding address. I never heard a better one. I told him afterwards, "If you make an address like that you will sweep the Liberal convention." I am taking no sides in that, of course, but I do like to hear a man talk who knows what he is talking about, and he certainly knew what he was talking about that night. I am going to read what he said. I do not want any minister to think I am boosting the Minister of Agriculture; I am not boosting anybody; but I was overjoyed with his address, as the whole audience was. This is what he said.
I am not going to tell you how little was left of the money at the time that I took it over.
He was speaking of the money that was left when he was made minister of labour and resources in a former Saskatchewan government. He had used some money for the development of coal at Estevan, which was later shipped to Manitoba. It changed over the whole process of coal production in the west by substituting Canadian coal for Manitoba, for coal that formerly came from the United States. He went on:
We know a great deal of him-
He was speaking of Mr. Mervyn Brown.
-in the province of Saskatchewan as a promoter of the welfare of industrial development in the western part of Canada.
The Minister of Agriculture came out strongly in favour of developing these hard coals in the Highwood area for shipment to the central provinces. Like everybody else present, I was delighted with what the Minister of Agriculture said, because that is the program I had been advocating for years and years, to develop our own coal resources in Canada and exchange trade back and forth between our own provinces.


John Thomas Hackett: Does the long haul cause any trouble?

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John Ritchie MacNicol: No. The coal produced by strip-mining, including the haul, would sell in Ontario at $14 a ton, thereby saving the Ontario coal user no less than $5 a ton, which would amount to $40 to $50 during the winter, to the average householder.


John Thomas Hackett: Is it all rail, or rail and lake?


John Ritchie MacNicol: All rail. When the coal is loaded on the train it comes through just as cheaply one way as the other.
I received a telegram from Mr. Greenfield, the day of the dinner, a former premier of Alberta, regretting that he could not attend the meeting. I should like to read it:
Regret previous engagements prevent acceptance your kind invitation to dinner Chateau Laurier April 28. Alberta possesses undeveloped hard coal in abundance proven by analysis and by tests in Ontario household equipment to be of a quality that can successfully compete with American anthracite in Ontario markets and stand up to outdoor storage without deterioration.
You do not need anything better than that.
I trust that the important gathering on the 28th will convince those present of the urgent necessity of developing Canadian coal resources both hard and steam coal for the benefit of Canadian citizens east and west and in so doing make a substantial and helpful contribution towards easing Canada's pressing dollar problem. The time for action is now-not years hence.
I take the same stand. An investment $1,500,000 to bring out millions of tons of coal from Alberta mines to save United States dollars would be a tremendous worthwhile investment for us, besides saving the coal user in the central provinces $5 a ton.
Reference was made to what happened between 1920 and 1925 when a policy of using coal from Alberta revolutionized coal usage in. Manitoba and meant a changeover from ninety per cent of the United States coal that had formerly been imported, to Canadian coal. We can do the very same thing now if we only wake up and develop our own resources. If I were sitting in the minister's chair I would not pay a particle of attention to his coal board, if they say Alberta cannot do it; I would be all the more inclined to tell them to pick up their hats and move on. We want Alberta hard coal and we shall be glad to get Nova Scotia soft coal. By using Alberta coal, the coal user in the central provinces would save $5 a ton; the country would save millions in United States dollars, and freight would go to our own Canadian railways. In a few days time we shall have an estimate before us to make good a deficit of $85,000,000 on the Canadian railfMr. Hackett,]
ways. I am for giving that to them, but the speediest way of getting rid of those deficits is to bring more freight to our railways. One way is by letting them haul hard coal from Alberta to the central provinces, and then they will not need to come to parliament so often for fifty, sixty or seventy-five million dollars.
I know that others would like to speak on this question, and I should like to hear from the hon. member for Calgary West, the hon. member for Cape Breton South, the hon. member for Lethbridge and others. Mr. Chairman, the time has come for action. Canadians must wake up. The money we paid in United States dollars for coal and freight on it from the United States amounts to $225 million a year. That would be one of the soundest ways for the minister to overcome his difficulties. If he gets my conception of this I know he will put his teeth into it and do the job. That is one sound way to save United States dollars, and to save Ontario coal users $5 a ton. One company-there are two of them-guarantees to deliver hard coal at not more than $14 a ton to Ontario users. This coal looks to me to be as good as United States anthracite. It is just as good in every way. It looks to me to be sound business to do that. Besides that it will give Canadian workmen employment.
I was sorry the minister was not there that night. His parliamentary assistant was there, and I am sure that he was impressed by Sir Albert Braithwaite and his statement. If we give him a chance by investing just $1,500,000, and build a short spur line not more than fifty miles long, he will at once invest $1,000,000, and the company would invest $1,000,000, to bring in a million dollars worth of machinery and build tipples, et cetera. That looks to me like sound business. I cannot understand why in the intervening two months the parliamentary assistant has not encouraged the minister, the coal board and the railways to get busy and do something for Canada, so that they will not be coming to this parliament over and over again for more and more money, but will be hauling freight produced in Canada, and spending the money in Canada.
I do not intend to go any farther, because I want others to say something on this. With all the strength I have, I plead with the minister to adopt a Canadian coal policy, of which one program would be moving hard coal from Alberta to Ontario, as well as Drum-heller coal. I use it myself sometimes. I understand that all the Drumheller coal that can be produced can be sold in Alberta and the west and that the companies undertake

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not to try to sell any hard coal in the west but to send it to the east. There should also be a program of moving Nova Seotia coal to the central provinces. Let us have a national coal policy now-the sooner the better.


Clarence Gillis: I started to speak on another subject on the Department of Trade and Commerce administration item. While I listened with a great deal of interest to the hon. member for Davenport, and agreed with everything he said on the subject of coal, I am going to reserve my remarks on that subject until we come to the item which has to do with the operation of the dominion coal board. I think my remarks on that subject would be more appropriate there.
The remarks I have to make tonight deal with a general situation that I think is not covered by any particular item, but definitely comes within the scope of the minister's activities. The reason I am going to make a short statement tonight is that I believe the recent increase permitted in steel calls for a statement and explanation by the minister.
In the light of present inflationary prices in Canada, I cannot understand how the minister or the government can justify permitting another price increase in one of our basic commodities that is going to have a terrific effect on the whole price structure in Canada. I do not think it was justified, according to the figures that I have seen. I do not think it was fair to the workers employed in steel plants who entered into agreements with their employers in 1946, a two-year agreement, and a slight adjustment in wages in 1948, which was done with the view of stabilizing the industry, trying to increase production, lower costs and in general stabilize that basic industry. This increase in steel permitted to the steel companies of Canada, without any consultation with the steel workers' union, was a breach of good faith. It definitely brings into focus what was proposed by the steel union workers when we met with them in the industrial relations committee early in 1946. At that time they proposed that a joint council for the industry should be established consisting of representatives of the union, of the industry and of the government, so that they might from time to time sit in and consider the kind of matter about which I am now speaking, namely, a general increase in the price of basic steel.
That was not done. They were not consulted. I consider it was a breach of good faith on the part of the government in at least not letting them know, in view of the reasonable stand they took in 1948 with regard to the adjustment of their wages.
It is unfortunate that we have to pick up our information in the press in matters of this
kind. Announcements like these should be made in the house rather than through the medium of the press. I picked it up in a press report. I am going to place a few figures on record to bear out what I am saying. I do not think the minister can justify the increase at this time, on the basis of profits or production, to say nothing of the upward trend in prices generally in Canada. The price increase permitted is practically the same as was permitted in 1945. We know when that first steel increase was granted in 1945. In my opinion that was the increase which wrecked the whole price structure. That is my honest opinion. If steel had been held at that time, and controls had been maintained for another couple of years at least, we would not have got away to the inflationary spiral we are now in.
On rods there is an increase of $5 a ton permitted; plate, $12 a ton; bars, $5 a ton; sheets, $7 a ton; skelp, $12 a ton, or an average increase of $8.20 a ton on all steel, both raw and processed. I do not think the increase can be justified for this reason. Three of the large steel producers in Canada are Algoma, Dosco and Stelco. Their profits in 1946 were $4,306,928. In 1947 they were $8,608,447, a terrific increase. The total tonnage in 1947 was 2,155,261.
According to the Financial Post which is out ahead of time-I notice that the paper I have here is dated June 19, which is Saturday-the Dosco company at Sydney have broken all records in steel production. If that is true, it should lower costs and should eliminate the necessity for an increase in the price of steel. There is quite a story in the Financial Post, but I do not want to take the time of the committee in telling it. On the basis of the average increase of $8.20 a ton, the profits of the three companies in 1948, based on the production I have just mentioned, should be approximately $17,673,140.20, or an increase of approximately $9,000,000 in profits to the three operating companies.
How does the government justify its action in permitting the increase at this time? According to the press report that I have here, the government justifies the increase on the ground that it was removing the $2,500,000 subsidy that it was paying on steel. In the face of the huge surplus, the government had in the last budget, it saved the $2,500,000 subsidy that it was paying on steel. The government grants a price increase that will cost money to the consumers in Canada, because in the final analysis it is the consuming public that will have to pay it. The government throws back the load of subsidizing these companies-and it is a subsidy-to increase their profits by approximately $9,000,000, in order to save $2,500,000 by way of subsidy. It does not

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add up. The reason I am making the statement now is that I want the minister to make to this committee some statement as to why this increase is permitted at this time.
The timing is terrible right now when everyone you meet in this country is talking about the price of beef and the price of butter, with prices jumping five to six cents in a day on a pound of butter. When that kind of thing is going on, the minister must have some idea of the mental attitude of the people toward this kind of thing. What I am fearful of is this. I know how difficult it was in 1945 to get a settlement with workers in the industry; and then, being closely in touch with them because that large steel plant in Sydney is in my riding, I know how reasonable and fair those boys were in 1948 in adjusting their wages. The one thing they did not want was any disturbance in the industry. Their minds were made up that they would increase production, try to lower costs, and try to get some stability in the industry after the transfer from war to peace. I know that from going through the shops. I have letters from them in which they say, "Not consulted"; "We know nothing about it"; "This thing is thrown at us through the press. Try to get some information from the minister." They did not think this action can be justified.
I do not intend to say anything more about the matter. I have made my statement. I have set out figures there that I want the minister to try to clarify for the benefit of the general public in Canada. If that process is continued until that increase gets into farm machinery, enters into the cost of the things the farmer produces, and then is reflected in the general cost of living across Canada, it will be the thing that will break the camel's back. The people will revolt against that kind of thing. In my opinion that increase is not justified. The extra profits given these companies by reason of this increase cannot be justified. The removal of that $2,500,000 subsidy and the passing of it back to the consumers of Canada is something the minister must explain. I should like to have it explained.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be happy to explain the increase in the price of steel, but I can do it more conveniently on the item of steel subsidies when I shall have my officers here. If my hon. friend thinks we are free of subsidies in Cape Breton Island, I think I can open his eyes. I would just ask him this question. When the workers get a wage increase of from ten to eleven cents an hour, who pays it? It has to be paid by the cost

of the product? When the freight rates are increased by 21 per cent, who pays that? It has to come in the cost of the product. When various other costs which I will enumerate to him later are increased, who pays it? My hon. friend seems to think it just comes from heaven or something.
He spoke of breaking the price ceiling and starting the spiral going in 1946. I agree with him absolutely. But what caused that? It was because the workers insisted on breaking the wage ceiling that we had at that time-


Clarence Gillis: Mr. Chairman-


Clarence Decatur Howe: -and taking an increase that we said at the time industry could not stand without starting the spiral of inflation. I call that to his attention. If he looks up the facts, I think he will find that two wage increases have been granted since prices were raised. You can stand only so much. The pressure got so high, something had to give; and up your prices went. I fought that increase in the price of steel for two years. I did everything I could to prevent an increase in price. You had so many influences, so many things happening at one time, that the lid blew off and an adjustment had to be made.


Clarence Gillis: I should like to say this to the minister, and he knows it as well as I do. By the granting of a wage increase, it does not necessarily mean an increase in costs. That can be offset.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a beautiful theory-


Clarence Gillis: Oh, no.


Clarence Decatur Howe: >-but you will find it is not true.


Clarence Gillis: It is not a theory at all. It is proved in practice. I have given examples in the house. An increase in production can offset the increased cost of the wage increase, because it does not amount to a great deal in the over-all picture. We showed you where, in the Sault Ste. Marie plant, despite the fact that wages had gone up by about 25 per cent, production had increased so greatly during the same period that the increase in wages was wiped out completely by the increase in production. I think you will find that is true at the Sydney plant right now-


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Clarence Gillis: -if the figures given in the Financial Post for increased production in that plant are true.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What are the figures? How much have they increased production?
Mr.-GILLIS: They have broken all records; doubled production and all that.

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Clarence Decatur Howe: Doubled production.? Nonsense.


Clarence Gillis: Do you get the Financial Post?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Clarence Gillis: You should.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I try to get more reliable figures.


Clarence Gillis: It is most interesting.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If you believe what it says.


Clarence Gillis: There is a maritime section in it. I do not intend to carry on an argument with the minister. If he says he will answer when the proper officials are here with him, I shall be quite satisfied to have an answer then, because I am really serious about this. However I want to say this in the light of statements he has made just now. If you will examine the picture, I think you will find that increased profits for -these corporations are largely responsible for the spiral of inflation we have in 'Canada now; and unless you start to control it, in my opinion you will not control anything.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I want to speak about Alberta coal, but before doing so I cannot avoid making a remark or two in reply to at least a few of the things that were said by the hon. member for Cape Breton South, and to one of them in particular. I have heard all my life about that last straw that breaks the camel's back. I should like to recall to him something that happened in his own union in Nova Scotia. An increase in wages was granted there, on the basis that the employees in those mines should increase their per ton per man production in that mine; and they did, may I say, increase it. But there are other things that may break the camel's back. One of them is this. Any industry which is unable to produce per man a certain volume, just cannot live. In that case-the one I referred to in his own union-that was proved conclusively.


Clarence Gillis: Do you want me to explain how that was done.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Would you mind letting me have a little go? Then you can take all the time you want to explain.


Clarence Gillis: I want to clarify it.


Arthur Leroy Smith: It was because of your men working harder and using their machinery better.


Clarence Gillis: No, it was not.


William Ross Macdonald: Order. The hon. member for Calgary West has the floor.


Clarence Gillis: I am telling the hon. member he is absolutely incorrect; and if he does not want the matter clarified that is up to him. I can tell him how it was done.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You can give me theories, and no one can equal you in this House of Commons in theorizing.


Clarence Gillis: It is not theory.


Arthur Leroy Smith: A moment ago the hon. member said, Mr. Chairman, that an increase in wages did not increase costs.


Clarence Gillis: I did not.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Well, I am sorry if I misunderstood.


Clarence Gillis: I said it could be offset.


Arthur Leroy Smith: The hon. member said it did not necessarily increase costs. But it does.


Clarence Gillis: That is where lawyers are at fault. They do not know economics.


Arthur Leroy Smith: What I have said applies to every intake product in your operation, whether it foe labour, goods or anjdhing else. Simple arithmetic is still good, and that indicates that if your cost increases for the things you buy, then, of course, it increases the cost of your product. Never until tonight have I heard that principle departed from anywhere; and I had to come to this House of Commons, this place of such a high level of intelligence, to hear that principle disputed tonight.
With respect to our coal position, I am not unmindful of the fact that the hon. member for Davenport had an excellent dinner, and I am not disputing the fact that there is a problem to be solved in this coal business in my own province. I wonder if I might take a moment of the time of the committee to explain geographically what the whole situation is out there. On the prairies, practically wherever you drill holes in the ground, you will find lignite coal, which is a soft coal containing plenty of moisture, and of course when you ship that coal you ship moisture. It is rather hard to pay freight on moisture when it does not help to heat your house or anything of that kind. But going back into the mountains, on the eastern slopes of the rockies, you begin at the south and fortunately it does not extend beyond the United
5478	COMMONS
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States border. I am not being unkind to the Americans, but fortunately for our economy it does not.
If you go along the Crowsnest pass a matter of twenty miles or so, you will find coal seams exposed through there, all of which are being worked at the present time, and that is what is know as bituminous coal. In other words, it is industrial coal used in our engines. Then you follow that line north, and the next place which is worked in quantities is at Nordegg, which is west of Red Deer. You go farther, following the same line pretty much, until you come to excellent bituminous mines in what we call the coal branch, which is the branch running out of Edson, south of Edson, Edson being roughly 150 to 160 miles from Edmonton.
There we have good bituminous coal. Of late years, particularly in the northern area, strip-mining has become something of real value. You see, Mr. Chairman, it is all right to talk about strip-mining at Estevan, Saskatchewan, because the over-burden is soil or clay or something of that kind. The operation is a simple one. You do not need to be a miner. You go out with a big scoop, and you throw the stuff to one side and scoop the coal out with the same kind of machinery and throw it into boxcars and ship it. Then you fill the trench you have made, and on and on you go. They have an over-burden that is rather heavy but easily got up. These better quality mines in the mountains have an overburden that is mostly rock, which is difficult and much more costly to remove.
And so, up in that northern area, we have some strip-mining, but on account of physical conditions it does not amount to a great deal. At Cadomin they have new strip-mining and at present they produce five tons to one with deep-mining or shaft-mining. Anyone therefore can readily see that that operation is a comparatively cheap one.
That coal varies greatly in that sweep from south to north. Some of it will coke. They are coking, and they are using it at the International at Coleman and a good deal at Michel, the Crowsnest Pass Coal Company property some miles further away. Then you come to Nordegg, immediately west of Red Deer, midway between Calgary and Edmonton, about 100 or 200 miles. It is right in the middle. There you have good coal, but it is so fine that they have had to put in a briquetting plant, and briquettes are produced because they mix with this very fine coal in order to have it made useful in the running of locomotives. The product is almost completely sold to the railways.

At this place, on these rivers which are southwest of Calgary, and of which the hon. member for Davenport was speaking, there are two rivers coming out; one is the Sheep river and the other the Highwood river. They rise in the Highwood range close together and then spread, one going through Turner valley; and the Highwood, which is farther south, goes through High River, the Sheep into Highwood, and the Highwood into Bow, and that ends the confluence of the waters there. The mine which the hon. member for Davenport spoke about is on the Sheep river which is directly west of Turner valley.
The other property or mine, if you like, is on the Highwood river, and I would think the distance between the Sheep river mine, which we know as the Burns mine, and the other on the Highwood river, which we know as the Ford mine, is about twenty to twenty-five miles. I am guessing, but I would think there is continuous coal between these two mines.
When I speak of continuous coal, I have no personal knowledge of the mine which has been discussed tonight. All I know is hearsay. But this other property on the Highwood I have visited. I have been there and stayed for days, and there are five seams on that property which I have seen, varying from five feet, which is the narrowest strip, to forty feet in width. I do not know how high this chamber is; probably it is twice that height, or something like that. Conceive, Mr. Chairman, a seam of coal half the height of this chamber. I have seen them mining some rather thick seams, and the only way they can do so is by building benches in it. In that way they take down the coal.
I was surprised to hear the hon. member for Davenport say-at least I got the impression from what he said-that this coal may be mined in lumps. That may be so, but one thing I know about the Highwood end' of the picture, that is the Ford property, is that it is coal which is very friable. It breaks up into fine particles when it is mined. We also know that in your market here in the eastern provinces, in Ontario and Quebec, you have been used all your lives to dealing with Pennsylvania coal which used to come in pieces which were about half the size of an egg and were bright and shiny black coal. That was years ago. Even from observation of coal ears as I ride in the trains, I know you are not getting that now or anything like it. You are not getting the Pennsylvania coal you got here some years ago.
I think I should say I know something about the heating quality of this coal on the Highwood. I was there with the chief engineer

Supply-Reconstruction and Supply
and he asked me to watch him and time him. In the cabin we had a round little stove. It was not a Quebec heater but an ordinary little stove made of tin, I thought, or thin iron. At night he put in the stove a shovelful of what appeared to me, used as I was to Drum-heller coal, to be lignite, which is mined in big shiny pieces as big as you want. He put that in at eleven o'clock at night. I never was a very early riser, and I was not then. But at ten o'clock in the morning there was the grandest little cone of very hot fuel under the ashes in that stove that one could ever see. So let no one have any doubt about the heating qualities of that coal, or about its ability to maintain a fire overnight.
I now come to something of which I am not sure. We hear of lignite, bituminous, subbituminous and anthracite coal. I know all about B.T.U.'s. One B.T.U. is the heat required to raise a pound of water one degree, if my memory serves me correctly. But to most people the difficulty is this. Is that coal an anthracite? The division is an artificial one. I am not sure about this; but I do not think we have any generalized term, such an anthracite, which would apply to a given coal. In other words, if your volatility, your lack of moisture, your lack of ash or your British thermal units-B.T.U.'s-are of a certain quality, it means that this coal is just as good as the coal over there which it is said has those various qualities within the coal itself.
A coal commission sat for some considerable time. Two of the members came from my own province. They were, and are, close personal friends. The man Brown, to whom the hon. member for Davenport referred, appeared before the hearing. It is part of the record of that commission that the solicitor for Mr. Brown wrote to the commission saying he would not appear further before them on account of his objection to two of the members at the commission-those two being my two personal friends I mentioned a while ago.
I am sorry that- attitude was taken. I am not giving an ex post facto judgment. I am not saying anyone was right or anyone was wrong; but I do know that this coal which the hon. member for Davenport has introduced into the discussion tonight is not thoroughly considered in that report. Let me say in passing that I am not placing fault or blame anywhere. Certainly I am not in any position to do that. But at one time my office acted for this Highwood end of the picture, which was supported largely by a man from New York, one from Cincinnati and one from Montreal. I may say it is years since my office has been solicitor for this concern.
5849-348J
It is now largely in the hands of Mr. Sweezey of Montreal, and they are trying to build their own railway.
But what I am saying is this, that from the observations of an amateur like myself, I have no doubt whatever as to the heat there is in this coal. I have no doubt whatever as to its ability to maintain a fire for a long time. That, of course, is not true of our lignite coal. I also have no doubt whatever as to its ability to be stored for some considerable time because, as I say, it is almost completely lacking in moisture.
Many of us have travelled up and down our railways in years gone by, and we have seen immense piles of coal stored along the rights of way of both the railway companies. It is true that- occasionally we have seen some smoke rising, and we know there was fire down there. But the railway people will tell you that that loss is practically nothing; it is only one in ten or twenty piles that ignites at all. The loss is nothing because, as the minister well knows, coal burning without oxygen, or practically without oxygen, makes very little progress.
We have mines afire out there in the bitu

minous field. For example, the first Cadomin mine has been afire for many years. True, they abandoned it; and yet the progress of that fire has been practically nothing. It is a very, very slow process. That is the mine- and let me say, it was a wonderful mine- which was on the top slope with the railway right below. They never had a tipple; all they had was a coal chute. They mined it and took it down onto the cars. Then the thing caught fire. What did they do? They went up top, took two creeks and diverted them into the mine, closed it up at the bottom and shut the works off for a month. When they were through, the fire was still going, so they abandoned it and went across that great ravine the minister knows is there to do their mining on the other side.
What is all this about? I am not going to repeat what was said by the hon. member for Davenport, except to agree with him most heartily 'that this coal program, particularly for people in eastern Canada, is one of the most serious problems with which you are faced. I can remember the minister telling us, either last year or the year before, when we had some difficulty with shipping, that he was trying to get cars to bring it around the end, or through the middle, to avoid water transportation, to keep this province of Ontario from being cold,, or even from freezing.
So I repeat what I said before, that to me this matter is one of grave concern to the dominion. We should not be dependent upon.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the information that has been given on the coal situation, but I suggest again that the proper place for me to discuss this subject will be when we reach the item concerning the coal board. The ofiicers will then be here, and I shall have the figures at hand. However I think I should say a word about the remarks of the hon. member for Davenport, which have been referred to by the hon. member for Calgary West.
Everyone seems to think this is a new discovery. I think it was thirty years ago when I first visited the Burns leases in southern Alberta. I have been on the ground and, like the hon. member for Calgary West,
I know the area. Everyone has known about the Burns leases; they have been on the market for about that long.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Quite true.


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
John Ritchie MacNicol: This would be strip-mining.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There were other strip-mines started in Alberta during the war.


Arthur Leroy Smith: They are all out on the prairie.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Soft coal.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Not hard coal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not hard to open up a strip-mine in Alberta.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is not hard coal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us analyse the thing. Hard coal is not something that is subject to anyone's guess as to whether it is hard or soft, as to whether it will burn a long time or a short time. It is subject to absolutely accurate analysis. When an industrial firm buys coal it buys it on a B.T.U. basis and knows its value down to the last nickel.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I agree with all that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is a low volatile bituminous coal of good quality, but it is just that. We have reports in the office which give the B.T.U., which are all right for that class of coal. My hon. friend resents this coal being called friable. The hon. member for Calgary West knows this coal and referred to it as friable. That quality of coal is always friable.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I spoke only of the south end of Highwood.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That bed is continuous, I think, from Highwood. We had samples in the office. The coal is all right. There is nothing wrong with the coal or with the project, and if someone went in there and built a railroad and developed it he would do very well.
There is another fallacy in discussing this matter, and that is talking about coal in Alberta as being analogous to coal in Toronto. The two have no relation. In the war we had a serious shortage of domestic coal in Toronto, and I went out, regardless of expense, to bring western coal to Toronto. I think I used every transportation facility that was

Supply-Reconstruction and Supply
available, and the best I could do was to bring about half a million tons of Alberta coal to Toronto a year. We have never moved as much as one million tons of Alberta coal into Toronto in a year, and unless the railway facilities are tremendously increased we never can. Coal is bulky and a carload of coal does not contain many tons. The number of carloads involved in moving a million tons of coal presents a serious transportation problem.
I wish we could get enough Alberta coal to fill the requirements of the prairie provinces. Today the Alberta mines are working to capacity twelve months in the year, and still we have to move United States coal back as far as Saskatoon.


Arthur Leroy Smith: There is an answer to that. Alberta coal during the war has gone west. Before the war we moved it into two divisions beyond Kenora.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know it was able to fill that market, but with the great step-up there has been in industry, all the coal the mines are producing is being used and we are still moving United States coal into Saskatoon. Let us take care of the western problem before we get down to Toronto.
The government has a policy of subventions; that policy is sufficiently elastic and will be administered so that all the coal that Canada [DOT]can produce both east and west will be moved *to Canadian markets, and we will move it as far as is necessary. But that is not a national coal problem. Alberta is capable of a far greater production if we could get more miners. All the coal that Alberta can produce will be marketed. It is not a question of this particular mine being related to some particular market. We can find a market without any difficulty whatever for all the coal we can produce.
The only difficulty with Brown and his associates is that they want someone else to furnish the money to develop a mine. They had the idea and they want someone else to furnish the money. That is laudable, but the problem is 'theirs, not the government's. I am quite frank in saying to my hon. friend that I did not go to his dinner because I thought I would be getting a free meal under false pretences, for I have been following that situation for two and a half years.
Mr. MaoNIOOL: That was not the answer the minister gave me. I thought the minister told the truth always.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am telling the truth today. Sometimes one has to be diplomatic. As a matter of fact, I went out of town.
fMr. Howe.]	.
That is the situation about the leases. It is not a government problem. If there were a great national interest involved in that particular operation it might be a government problem. But it is just like any other mine. There are lots of mines in Alberta and in the mining sections of British Columbia which are very much alike. They may mine a slightly different coal in one mine, but not very much different from the coal that is mined in the others. The problems are the same, and we think this particular project should be treated like all other projects in the area. That is a plain statement of the situation.


Calvert Charlton Miller: What railway facilities are short for moving this coal?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Boxcars.


Calvert Charlton Miller: No steel cars required?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If Alberta coal was shipped in open cars it would absorb moisture, and if it absorbs moisture, it will not store, so that it is no longer a domestic coal. Boxcars are required to move it, and the movement comes about the same time as the wheat movement. Both wheat and coal are moved in the autumn of the year, the coal before the heating season, and the wheat after the harvest, and they compete seriously for the same type of railway equipment.


Howard Charles Green: Could coal be brought around by ships through the Panama canal any cheaper than across Canada by rail?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would not think so. It is a long haul from the coal mines to the Pacific coast, six or seven hundred miles.


John Thomas Hackett: There is coal on Vancouver island.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just enough to keep Vancouver island warm.


Howard Charles Green: There is coal in northern British Columbia.


Clarence Decatur Howe: But it all involves movement. We have no trouble in marketing the coal that is brought to the Pacific coast. We deliver coal to Japan and South America. I do not think you would bring it through the Panama canal to eastern Canada, because you can market it nearer home.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I accepted Sir Albert Braithwaite's word. He is an outstanding coal producer. I accepted the statement he gave us about the number of tons he could produce with machinery and equipment and his willingness to bring in the necessary machinery and invest $1,000,000 of his own money.

Supply-Reconstruction and Supply
I thought that was a pretty fair offer. The money is lying in New York and he is willing to bring it here, but he does not feel like building a railway too.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There again we should be clear on that. I met Sir Albert Braithwaite. He is a contractor. His business is to strip-mine coal, just as the business of a building contractor is to erect buildings, and he expects to get paid for his work. He expects to put
81,000,000 worth of equipment on that property and expects someone to pay him for operating it, which is fair enough, which is like any other contractor would do. But I was not greatly impressed with his offer, so far as showing confidence in the property was concerned. There is lots of coal there, the seams are thick, and it is a fine mining proposition. I wish somebody would go in and develop it, but it is not a job for the government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and conversion-
J/OS. To provide for the Liquidation of contracts, including commitments of previous years related to the acquisition of assets operated by the department or an agency of the department; and for miscellaneous and unforeseen expenses, $500,000.
['There again we should be clear on that. I met Sir Albert Braithwaite. He is a contractor. His business is to strip-mine coal, just as the business of a building contractor is to erect buildings, and he expects to get paid for his work. He expects to put\n81,000,000 worth of equipment on that property and expects someone to pay him for operating it, which is fair enough, which is like any other contractor would do. But I was not greatly impressed with his offer, so far as showing confidence in the property was concerned. There is lots of coal there, the seams are thick, and it is a fine mining proposition. I wish somebody would go in and develop it, but it is not a job for the government.']
John Thomas Hackett: I want a little information from the minister with regard to contracts which have yet to be liquidated. I should like to know what were the principal amounts paid and how far the contracts have been liquidated.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was going to make a statement on the work of the department; and since this is a disappearing department. I think I should do so. I have a preamble dealing with the greatness of the department which perhaps I can omit. This shows the present position pretty well.
The Department of Reconstruction and Supply resulted from the amalgamation at the end of 1945 of the wartime Department of Munitions and Supply, and the Department of Reconstruction, established in June, 1944. The department was considered necessary to discharge certain temporary functions in connection with the liquidation of Canada's war effort and the re-establishment of Canadian industry on a peacetime footing.
The department has been in process of dissolution from the time of its establishment. ^ The department's staff and functions have continued to contract during the past year. In some cases this has taken place because work has been wound up. In other cases functions of a more continuing nature have been transferred or are in the process of transfer to other departments.
The liquidation of the war program involved four responsibilities: (1) the termination and settlement of war contracts and the renegotiation of war contracts where participating firms had realized large profits; (2) the liquidation of surplus war plant and other forms of war equipment; (3) the dissolution or other disposition of crown companies established during the war, and (4) the disposition of controls in existence at the end of the war.
This is what my hon. friend was asking for. On the first point, as indicated before, war contract cancellations, in the closing phases of the war and immediately thereafter, involved $2,500 million. In many instances these cancellations have not involved any claims, but where claims were made they were dealt with by the contracts settlement board of the department. This board has now approved claims for the settlement of these contracts for about $290 million, which represents about 96 per cent of all the claims submitted. In other words, we have about four per cent of the claims still to be settled.
The department has also been engaged in the renegotiation of contracts made during the war. The result of these efforts was to reduce war contracts by over $475 million, of which all but $80,000,000 have been fully settled.
On the second point, the liquidation of surplus war plant and other equipment has been in the hands of War Assets Corporation. This corporation has now disposed of most of the war surplus in the hands of the Dominion of Canada. Sales of war surpluses brought $430 million to the treasury by the end of May, 1948. However, it will still take some more time to clean up the tag ends of disposal work.
On the third point, the disposition of crown companies established during the war has been completed by now. Of the thirty crown companies operating under the Department of Munitions and Supply at the conclusion of the war, twenty-six have now been liquidated. The four which continue to function on a peacetime basis in the same or altered form are:	Canadian Arsenals Limited; Polymer
Corporation Limited; Eldorado Mining and Refining (1944) Limited; and Wartime Housing Limited, which has now been absorbed by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. These companies have hitherto been reporting to parliament through the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. Since this portfolio is a temporary one while the crown companies have continuing functions to perform, arrangements are being made to have these crown companies report to parliament through the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Similarly, the dominion coal board,

Supply-Reconstruction and Supply
established last year, will henceforth be reporting to parliament through the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
On the fourth point, we have abolished all controls formerly exercised by the Department of Munitions and Supply and its successor, the Department of Reconstruction and Supply, except for allocation controls over steel, timber and building materials and the use of priorities to assure an adequate supply of building materials to priority projects. The administrators of the controls are finding it possible, by negotiating with the interested parties, to obtain the desired allocation of materials on a voluntary basis. These informal arrangements work very well and are much more desirable from the point of view of both the government and industiy, and give a flexibility that could not otherwise be obtained. These allocation controls are continuing on a temporary basis, and we hope to dispose of them as soon as economic conditions warrant it. We are hopeful that this will be possible at the time when the Department of Reconstruction and Supply is folded up.
In connection with the administration of the foreign exchange regulations brought into force on November 17, 1947, an emergency import control branch was set up in the Department of Reconstruction and Supply to control the import of capital goods. Personnel for this division have been recruited within the department, and in the Department of Trade and Commerce. Under the Emergency Exchange Conservation Act, provision was made for the Minister of Trade and Commerce to administer import controls over capital goods. This is an advantageous arrangement, because it permits the co-ordination of import controls with the work done by various commodity officers in the Department of Trade and Commerce. Therefore, as soon as administrative details can be dealt with, the personnel of the emergency import control branch, now with the Department of Reconstruction and Supply, will be transferred to the Department of Trade and Commerce.
The rest of the statement refers to other continuing functions which can be dealt with as we proceed with the estimates.


Howard Charles Green: When is it expected to dissolve the Department of Reconstruction and Supply?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Some time between now and the next six or seven months.


John Thomas Hackett: The minister has said
that the cancellations amounted to $2,500 million; that settlements had been made of 96 per cent of the claims, and that $290 mil-
lion had been paid out in settlement of these claims. Can the minister mention a half dozen claimants to whom the largest amounts were paid?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is a brief statement from the settlement officer of the contracts settlement board.
The following is a brief summary of the operations of the contract settlement board up to May 31, 1948, which may be treated as supplementary to the report dated May 29, 1947, submitted by the secretary of the board.
The board received a total of 3,252 termination notices up to 31st March, 1947. All contracts current at that date were taken over by Canadian Commercial Corporation.
The board has received a total of 3,707 claims, of -which 455 were cancelled or withdrawn, leaving a balance of 3,252 claims amounting to $301,183,453 to be dealt with.
A total of 3,251 claims amounting to $289,142,367 have been approved, or 96 per cent of amount claimed. The value of the uncompleted portion of the terminated contracts was $2,479,339,070, and the total of claims approved represents 11-6 per cent of this amount.
One claim for approximately $2,037,411 is awaiting final review. The production under this contract for maintenance kits for wireless sets was only recently completed. Included in the amount approved are seven claims by one contractor totalling $1,148,397, which are being amended as result of further audit investigation. There is also one claim outstanding awaiting further audit investigation which may take some time.
Payments have been made to contractors in accordance with amount approved, and the contingent liability due to revision in the claims is comparatively small and should not exceed $150,000 in all.


John Thomas Hackett: I suppose the minister has the names of the companies and individuals to whom the $290 million was paid?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry I did not hear that.


John Thomas Hackett: I say the minister must have the names of those companies and individuals to whom the $290 million was paid.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, but I do not think I should put it on Hansard. The amounts have to do with the state of completion of the contract, when the claims were made and would be large in one case and small in another.


John Thomas Hackett: This is public money. It being public money, Mr. Chairman, I thought it would be a matter which might be required to be made public.

Private Bills


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is public money. If the hon. member asked for the total expenditures to any one contractor, I would say that is all right. But when you ask for termination claims of a contractor, that is a matter of coincidence. It has no relation to the total work done or anything of that sort. It just represents the stage of the contract at the time the war ended.


John Thomas Hackett: Yes, but it represents a payment made of taxpayers money. I submit that the minister should make available the names of the persons and companies to whom these amounts have been paid. Will the minister have that at the next meeting?


Mr.   IIOWE@: There are approximately
3,000	of them. I do not know that I want to put them on Hansard. There is nothing secret about it; if my .hon. friend wants to know about any particular one, I shall be glad to give him the information.


John Thomas Hackett: I asked the minister if he would give the names of the six to whom the largest amounts had been paid.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is on the termination
claims?


John Thomas Hackett: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Or on the contracts?


John Thomas Hackett: The minister said the contracts aggregating $2,500 million had been made and 96 per cent had been settled for $290 million.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. I said contracts totalling S2 billion-


John Thomas Hackett: Two and a half billion.


Clarence Decatur Howe: *-had been cancelled.


John Thomas Hackett: And that claims had been made arising out of the cancellation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Thomas Hackett: That 96 per cent of the claims has been adjusted, and that to effect the adjustment $290 million had been paid out by the government to the claimants.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


John Thomas Hackett: I asked the minister for the names of the six companies or individuals to whom the largest payments had been made.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We will give you the names of the six.


John Thomas Hackett: And the amounts.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I do not think there is any particular objection to that.


William Henry Golding: Shall the
item carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.

Mr. A. W. STUART (Charlotte) moved:: That pursuant to the special order made this day, private bills Nos. 366' to 391 inclusive be now read a first and second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous and private bills.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 366, for the relief of Esther Leibof Kaufman.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 367, for the relief of Harold Clarence Simkin.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 368, for the relief of Winnifred Emily Ford Salmon.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 369, for the relief of Arthur Herbert John Louth.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 370, for the relief of Frank Potts.- Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 371, for the relief of Kenneth Wright Williamson.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 372, for the relief of Ida Goldman Adelstein.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 373, for the relief of George Cohen. -Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 374, for the relief of Katherine Lillian Cornish Mullin-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 375, for the relief of Orville Lester Bennett.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 376, for the relief of May Holmes Martin.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 377, for the relief of Georgette Mathias-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 378, for the relief of Gladys Odella Sweet Elliott.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 379, for the relief of Robert Charles Delafosse.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 380. for the relief of Adelaide Jardine McDonald.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 381, for the relief of Edith McLachlan Ward.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 382, for the relief of Eva Lamothe Paquin.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 383, for the relief of Elizabeth Iris Lobar Kinnon-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 384, for the relief of Jeanne Obodof-sky Newton.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 385, for the relief of Philip Sidil-kofsky.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 386, for the relief of Rhoda Marjorie Beacom Sadler.-Mr. Maybank.
Supply
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 387, for tihe relief of Becky Hersco-vitch Moscovitch.-Mr. Mayibank.
Bill No. 388, for the relief of Veronica Conrick Pelley.

Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 389, for the relief of William Bryan Hazel.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 390, for the relief of Victorien Tremblay.-Mr. Maybank.
Bill No. 391, for the relief of Pierre Behoearay.-Mr. Maybank.

John Bracken: Will the minister tell the house what the business is to be for tomorrow?


Alphonse Fournier: We shall go into supply at the outset and take up the following departments:	reconstruction and supply,
external affairs, labour, mines and resources, national revenue, public works, and agriculture, but I cannot state in what order we shall proceed with them.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister not say which will be first?


Alphonse Fournier: I do not know which minister can be here at eleven o'clock.


John Thomas Hackett: I understood that it would be external affairs. Is there anything to the contrary?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, that was my understanding. But we thought we would get through with mines and resources. That has been up seven times.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Reconstruction and supply.


Alphonse Fournier: Reconstruction and supply. That has been up seven times.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is an important
department.
It being ten minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:	.



DEPARTMENT OP VETERANS AFFAIRS

[Stage Direction]
533.	District administration, $3,805,120.
534.	Rehabilitation services, $4,161,080.
535.	Treatment services, $38,402,200.
536.	Prosthetic services, $952,584.
537.	Canadian pension commission-administration expenses, including chairman of the Canadian Pension Commission at $1,000 and the deputy chairman of the Canadian Pension Commission at $500 additional to chapter 62, Statutes of 1946, $2,364,452.
538.	Veterans bureau, $367,392.
539.	War veterans' allowance board-administration, $229,903.
540.	Veterans' insurance, $98,329.
541.	Pensions for disability and death, including pensions granted under the authority of the civilian government employees (war) compensation order P.C. 45/8848 of 22nd November, 1944, which shall be subject to the Pension Act, $80,014,000.
542.	War veterans' allowances, $18,085,000.
543.	Unemployment assistance, $100,000.
544.	Hospital and other allowances, $5,100,000.
545.	Gallantry awards-world war II, $18,000.
546.	Employers liability compensation, $115,000.
547.	Last Post fund, $125,000.
549.	To provide for the cost of administration of soldier settlement; British family settlement; general land settlement, and Veterans Land Act, including engineering and other investigational planning and subdivision expenses that do not add tangible value to real property, $5,285,703.
550.	To provide for the payment to the government of the United Kingdom on account of losses under the 3,000' British family agreement of August, 1924, and1 the New Brunswick 500 British family agreements of August 4, 1927, and August 27, 1935, $25,000.
551.	To provide for the payment of grants to veterans settled on provisional lands in accordance with agreements with provincial governments under section 35 of the Veterans' Land Act, 1942 (as amended by order in council P.C. 2122, dated 13th April, 1945), and payment of grants to veterans settled on dominion lands, in accordance with an agreement with the Minister of Mines and Resources, under section 35 of the Veterans' Land Act. 1942, as amended (P.C. 1550 of 18th April, 1946), $3,000,000.
552.	To provide for the payment of grants to Indian veterans settled on Indian Reserve lands under section 35A of the Veterans' Land Act, 1942 (as amended by order in council P.C. 2122, dated 13th April, 1945), $800,000.
554.	Hospital accommodation and facilities, $7,750,000.
548.	Grant to Canadian Legion, $9,0-00.
555.	Campaign stars and medals, including cost of distribution, $2,500,000.
Veterans Affairs-Soldier Settlement and Veterans' Land Act-
56d. To provide for protection of security

soldier settlement, $40,000.
562. To provide for purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; refunds of surplus to veterans (section 19); and for protection of security under the Veterans' Land Act, $50,000,000.

[Stage Direction]
440. Departmental administration, $272,600.
461.	To reimburse the Canadian Commercial Corporation for expenses incurred in purchasing materials, supplies and equipment, etc., on behalf of the Department of National Defence under chapter 51, statutes of 1947, $480,000.
462.	Export permit branch, $124,200. DEPARTMENT OF RECONSTRUCTION AND SUPPLY
407. Departmental administration, $1,009,992,
[Stage Direction]
Saturday, June 19, 1948