1948-06-30

Mr. A. W. STUART (Charlotte):: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, a statement was made in the house during the last forty-eight hours about the increased number of C.C.F. votes received in the recent New Brunswick election. I should like to correct that statement. In 1944 the votes received by the C.C.F candidates totalled 13,934, whereas the total number received by the C.C.F. in the same counties in the recent election was 11,131. I cannot see where there is an increase.
Mr. COLDWE'LL: Half the number of candidates.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CHURCH:: What are the total travelling expenses of all departments of the government, outside commissions and boards in relation, to federal affairs such as hotel bills and all other expenses and incidentals, connected therewith, for the last two years of record?


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE-OFFICES, NEW GLASGOW, N.S. .
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What has been expended by the govern- * ment for furniture, fittings and equipment during each of the fiscal years ending March 31, 1946, 1947 and 1948 for use in unemployment insurance and other government offices in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia?
2>. Were tenders called for such purchases?
3.	If so, who were the successful tenderers and at what prices?
4,	In what offices were these materials installed?



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE '


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a few words about the prorogation proceedings. It is always a difficult matter to wind up the business of a session. As hon. members know prorogation is in the
nature of a ceremony and some careful preparation is required before matters can be finally arranged prior to prorogation. The other house has to conclude the business which may come over to it from this house, and the speech from the throne has to have its final printing. The deputy of the governor general will be acting for His Excellency in proroguing parliament, and it is desirable that due notice should be given to him as to the time to be present. These matters are all difficult to arrange unless the business of the house is concluded by' a definite time.
Hon. members will recall that early in the session I mentioned that if the house did not conclude its business by June 30 it would be necessary for the government to seek to have the session adjourned until September.


Mr. GREEN:: The Prime Minister did not really mean that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh, yes; I did. What I am about to say is that I am happy that that step has not been necessary. I should like to congratulate hon. members upon the way they have expedited the business of the house so as to make possible prorogation by June 30. I think splendid progress has been made and, as I say, I am pleased that matters have reached the point where it is not necessary to consider any adjournment of the present session.
I believe it is generally the wish of all hon. members that if possible, and without sacrificing anything in the public interest, we should wind up the business of the session today.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Two o'clock.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend says "two o'clock." That would suit me all right, but I want to make it clear that I should not wish to press the house unduly in the matter of time. I think by mutual arrangement it should be possible to have matters so planned as to permit prorogation at a reasonable hour in the course of the day.


Howard Charles Green: What time has the Prime Minister in mind?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Most hon. members have left already for their homes. Tomorrow is July 1, and I know that several hon. members have obligations in their own constituencies which they assumed in the expectation that the house would be adjourned by June 30 at the latest.
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There is one other circumstance I should like to mention. The staffs of both houses of parliament, of the printing bureau and officials of the government generally have had considerable pressure put upon them during the last few weeks of parliament. As hon. members know, we have been sitting, not only in the afternoons and evenings but in the mornings, and on Saturdays as well. On behalf of the house I should like to express to the staffs that have had this extra duty put upon them our appreciation of the exceptionally efficient manner in which they have discharged their duties.
The house can best express its appreciation by making it perfectly apparent to the members of the staff that when July 1, Dominion day, comes, they may expect that the begin-nining of their summer vacation has been entered upon.
In seeking to arrange matters with a certain definiteness, if there are some questions which are of more importance to hon. members than others, and hon. members will let this side of the house know, we shall try to arrange to bring forward those matters immediately and leave the less contentious matters, if there are any that are still contentious, to the latter part of the proceedings.
That is all I have to say at the moment. It is intended to continue immediately with the estimates of the Minister of Finance. The next item to be taken up, as I was informed last night, is the important health program which has been announced in the house.
Mr. HOWARD C. GREEN (Vancouver South) : Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Prime Minister that the members of the official opposition will be only too glad to co-operate in bringing about prorogation today. We do not want to abandon our duty to give these estimates some consideration. We would be willing to sit right through without any recess for lunch. I should like to suggest one way of hastening the business of the house. For the last few days we have been working against a frog chorus, if I may use that expression without hurting anybody's feelings, from the government side of the house, sometimes led by one of the ministers, the refrain of which was "Carried, carried, carried." If the government members sitting behind the Prime Minister will allow the chairman to do the shouting of "carried," I am sure we shall get along much faster. After all, it is only human nature that opposition of this kind makes us all want to fight back a bit, and the result is delay; so, in the most kindly way, as the Minister of Labour would say, I suggest to

the members on the government side that they keep still today and let us get on with the business of the house.


Mr. ABBOTT:: It would be a shame to break a long-established custom of the house in that respect.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: I think we might expedite the business of the house by leaving until one o'clock the question of the time of recess for lunch. Secondly, may I join in the expression of appreciation to the staff for the work they have done during the session.



INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a question to the Minister of Labour. Provision is made in Bill No. 195, which provides for the investigation, conciliation and settlement of industrial disputes, that the act shall come into effect by proclamation. Can the minister state when the act will be proclaimed? It will receive royal assent today.


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I could, I suppose, give the
stock answer that that is a matter of government policy which will be announced in due course. But as a matter of fact I was discussing this very question this morning and my hon. friend can rest assured that we shall move with expedition to comply with all the necessary formalities. Of course the old board has to function until the new board is appointed, but we shall proceed as quickly as possible.



REPORTS AND PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. HOWARD C. GREEN (Vancouver South): Mr. Speaker, several returns and reports which should have been tabled during the session have not yet been brought down. I refer particularly to the annual report of the Department of Mines and Resources. The last report tabled was for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1946. I think an arrangement should be .made to table the report for the year ended March 31, 1947, before the house prorogues. Furthermore, I believe no report has been tabled from the Department of Reconstruction and Supply for over two years. I am informed that its last report was for

Inquiries of the Ministry
the year 1944-45. Could these reports be tabled, or otherwise made available to members?
Hon. J. A. MaeKINNON (Minister of Mines and Resources): An inquiry was made before, during the absence I think of the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), for the report of my department, and the explanation was given that it is in the hands of the printers. It is unfortunate that it has not been made available earlier, but every effort will be made in future years to table the report as early as possible in the session.
Howard Charles Green: Cannot some arrangements be made to distribute the report to the members after it has been printed?
Mr. MacKINN'ON: I shall see that the report is mailed to each member of the house.


Howard Charles Green: What about the report of the Department of Reconstruction and Supply?
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister)1: I regret I am not able to give my hon. friend a definite answer, but I shall speak to the Minister of Trade and Commerce about the report of the Department of Reconstruction and Supply as soon as I see him. I will meanwhile give the same undertaking, should this be found to be necessary, as has just been given by my colleague with respect to having the report sent to the members as soon as possible after prorogation.



BERLIN BLOCKADE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JOHN T. HACKETT (Stanstead) : Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether any request has come from the government of the United Kingdom for assistance in flying in supplies to overcome the Berlin blockade?
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not think it is advisable for me to attempt to answer that question at the moment. I would have to consult with other departments of the government, and I should not like to make a statement with regard to a matter so far-reaching as to the inferences that might be drawn from any reply without first having the opportunity to consult with my colleagues.


Mr. HACKETT:: Will a reply be made later in the day?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That will
depend entirely upon what it seems most advisable to do, all the circumstances considered.



DOMINION DAY

[Stage Direction]
INQUIRY AS TO USE OF DESIGNATION "INDEPENDENCE OF CANADA DAY*'
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. PHILEAS COTE (Matapedia-Matane):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister of which I did not give him notice because I thought we would sit tomorrow. I would ask whether tomorrow is to .be called Dominion day, or Independence of Canada day, as it has been named first in the United States press, and secondly in the Canadian press. Apparently an item was given out by the information service.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think in the circumstances it would perhaps be only proper to allow every member to call it by whatever name he prefers.



GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. 'Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Labour?-although perhaps it is a question for the government as a whole. In view of the fact that the government is not proceeding this session with Bill 343, an act to amend the Government Annuities Act, against which there was opposition on the floor of the house, can the government say whether consideration is being given to restoring the rates on annuities to what they were prior to April 19?
Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister
of Labour): I anticipated this question and have a short statement to make.
The Government Annuities Act was passed by parliament in 1908. Therefore it has been on the statute books for forty years. Its purpose was to encourage habits of thrift and provide a means whereby Canadian citizens could make reasonable provision for their security in advanced years through the purchase of annuities, a purpose which carried the endorsa-tion and support of every citizen of Canada. The act was intended to afford facilities whereby annuities could be purchased on the following financial basis: (a) that the purchaser would pay all the cost except administration; (b) that the government would pay the cost of administration. There is nothing
Inquiries oj the Ministry

in the act which provides any other basis. I would like to make it doubly plain that parliament in passing the act intended that the purchaser of the annuity would pay all the cost except the cost of administration.
Now let us examine how the cost is estimated. First there is the question of how many years an annuitant will require to be paid the amount started in the contract-in other words, how long will he live to draw the annuity?
Second there arises the rate of interest which shall be allowed on the premium payments made by the purchaser.
On the question of the interest rate, it is clear from a study of Hansard at the time the annuities act was introduced that it was originally intended that the interest rate should change with changing rates of interest prevailing in the bond market. In the original discussion on the bill, the Hon. W. S. Fielding, then Minister of Finance, stated:
The rate may be changed from time to time according to monetary conditions.
If it was the intention of the drafters of the bill that any specific rate of interest would be paid, such would have been provided for in the act. However, parliament authorized the government to fix the rate of interest by regulation. It is clear that this was done to permit interest rates to be readily changed from time to time to meet changing conditions. It was never the intention that there should be any substantial public subsidy to the purchasers of government annuities other than that provided by having the government pay the administrative expenses.
When the act was passed, the government had the responsibility of fixing the rate of interest. At that time government bonds were yielding 3-89 per cent and the government, in order to fix an even figure, rounded it off to four per cent. I have explained how the interest rate was fixed- and I will now attempt to cover the question of the other item entering into the cost, namely, how many years the annuity will be required to be paid depending on the expectation of life of the annuitant. In fixing the mortality table to be used, the advice of the best known actuaries in Canada was obtained and followed. Life expectancy, as will be appreciated, has lengthened since the act was passed. In fixing the rate which must be charged the purchaser, we have two factors to take into consideration, the life expectancy and the interest rate allowable. From these two factors, tables are prepared and it is on the basis of these tables that the contract rates are set. After twenty-

eight years of operation, it became evident in 1936 that there was reason to doubt the soundness of the rate tables because of increased life expectancy.
A senate committee investigated the matter and recommended a further study by Professor M. A. Mackenzie of the university of Toronto and as a result of his report, the rates were substantially increased on February 1, 1938. Not only that but he recommended the transfer of S8.941,195.84 in order to maintain a reserve in the fund because of the sale of annuities at less than cost prior to that date.
Now, what is the situation as at this date? We find that we are selling annuities at less than cost because life expectancy is greater today than it was in 1936. This is particularly important in view of the continuing trend toward longevity especially in view of the fact that many of the contracts will not become payable for ten. fifteen or twenty-five years from this date. Indeed some will not become payable until the year 2000.
In addition to selling annuities on the bargain counter because of the mortality trend, there is the fact that up to April 19, 1948, an interest rate of four per cent compounded yearly was allowed on money paid by the purchasers of annuities; whereas in the case of citizens who sacrificed to buy war bonds and Canada savings bonds, an interest rate of from 31 per cent to three per cent only was allowed. Such a substantial difference in interest rates is discriminatory and unfair as between different types of people who provide old age security in different ways. One group has been providing old age security by purchasing government annuities but a far larger group has been buying government bonds-victory loan bonds, war savings certificates, and Canada savings bonds.
At the present rate of sales and assuming money to be worth three per cent, if we continue to pay a four per cent interest rate, my actuaries have estimated that there will be a capital deficit of over $100 million incurred from the new business of the next ten years and this does not give any consideration to the fact that sales have been increasing very rapidly. Added to this capital deficit, had we continued on the mortality tables without consideration to the extension of life expectancy, there would have been a substantial additional deficit. Having regard for these facts, I am convinced this parliament would have found me very remiss had I not brought the matter to the attention of the government and recommended suitable adjustments. In arriving at the decisions made and put into

Inquiries oj the Ministry
effect by order in council, this government, has not departed one iota from the basic principles of the 1908 act.
I believe I have answered in my statement all the points raised by hon. members in the several debates on this subject.
Something has been said in regard to the fact that persons purchasing annuities after April 19, 1948 will pay more than those who purchased prior to that date. This, of course, is true, but it is not a new feature and is no different from the situation faced in 1938 when the last adjustment was made, nor is it any different from the situation existing in all kinds of insurance business. I maintain that the investment in government annuities is the best investment any one who is looking for security can make and I assert without fear of successful contradiction that the new rates are the lowest at which annuities can be purchased in Canada.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I realize that I am not permitted to debate the matter at this time. If I could I would object to many things that the minister has said; but may I ask this question? In view of the representations that have been received from the public and made to the government on the floor of parliament, will the government still give consideration to the matter of annuity rates?


Humphrey Mitchell: It is the intention of the government to submit the whole question of annuities to a special committee at the next session of parliament.


Mr. REID:: Will the minister give the house the figures as to the number of people who have paid from $10,000 to $16,000 in a lump sum for the buying of annuities? The information I get in the city from which I come is that there are more applications from people who are in a position to pay $8,000 or more for the purchase of an annuity than there are from those in the lower income brackets. These people surely cannot be considered poor.


Howard Charles Green: In many cases they are widows.


Thomas Reid: Large companies are paying up to $10,000 for each employee, the MacMillan *company and others.


Humphrey Mitchell: Obviously we cannot
debate this matter on the orders of the day. I ^hall be glad to provide the hon. member for New Westminster, and any other 'hon. gentleman, with the information asked for.



TARIFFS AND TRADE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Big-gar):: A resolution on the order paper dated December 5, dealing with the Geneva agreements, one of the matters for which the house was called together early last December, has been passed over. What is the position of the tariff adjustments that were included in schedule V of the general agreement? Parliament has not approved the resolution. No bill has been introduced. The announcement was made that this would go into effect. May the position be stated, so that the house may be clear on the matter?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The tariff rates agreed upon in the Geneva agreements have been given provisional application in Canada and in other countries, as is contemplated in the agreements themselves. They have been given provisional application here by order in council. The statutory implementation of the agreements will take two forms. The resolutions, which still stand on the order paper, if adopted, will provide for the formal approval of the agreements entered into at Geneva. When that is done it will require legislative implementation by an amendment of the customs tariff. The resolution which stands in my name under government notices of motion is a formal resolution which must be passed, I am advised by my legal advisers as preceding a money bill. I am advised that an amendment to the customs tariff cannot be introduced unless preceded by a resolution. The amendments to the customs tariff will not be proposed until the resolution standing in the name of the Prime Minister, which is a general resolution asking for the approval of the agreements, has been adopted. In the meantime the tariff changes are in effect, and will continue in effect for the time being. The same position applies in the United Kingdom, and I understand the same position exists in t'he United States.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: Tariff changes, which are changes in taxation, have been made by order in council, although parliament has been in session since the first of the year. Can this continue indefinitely? Will the government always be able to vary taxes by order in council without the approval of parliament?


Douglas Charles Abbott: As my hon. friend knows, all the tariff changes are reductions. I cannot say just how long. I had better not give
Inquiries oj the Ministry

my hon. friend a specific answer, but I have been informed that there will be ample opportunity at the next session of parliament to take the appropriate legislative action before the provincial application expires.
I am informed that no country has yet given legislative approval to the agreements entered into. In some countries it can be done by executive action; in others parliamentary approval is required.


John Thomas Hackett: Is it not a fact that these reductions in tariff duties enacted by order in council prevent Canada from making any further increase in the duty on these items?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is incorrect.


Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: May I ask the Minister of Finance whether he will agree that while it is not his fault that these rumours are circulated, it is the fault of the government that these things that started as rumours now turn out not to have been rumours at all but to have been true?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am going to answer that. These rumours, as I have said before, were unfounded. I have no idea whence they emanated, and if my hon. friend assumes that the report of the prices committee gives confirmation to the rumours, then I say that assumption is completely unjustified.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the minister not agree that the rumours turned out to be almost word for word the same as parts of the report of the prices committee, and does he think that is just an accident?


Mr. FULTON:: May I ask the Minister of Finance a question supplementary to that asked by the hon. member for Stanstead. Would the Minister of Finance reconsider the answer he gave? Our understanding is that under the protocol, once tariffs are lowered, even though it may be provisional, we cannot raise them without a breach of the protocol.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is not correct.



EXCISE TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. E. STEPHENSON (Durham):: I should like to address a question to the Minister of Finance. I think it is of interest to all the people of Canada. In view of the rumour that the 25 per cent excise tax may be with-

drawn, a rumour which is having a serious effect on customer buying and business in general, will the Minister of Finance make a definite statement as to whether the tax will be withdrawn?


Douglas Charles Abbott: My hon. friend was not in his seat in the house last night when I answered a similar question, but I will repeat substantially what I said then. I have nothing to add to the statement I made in the house the other day. It is extremely unfortunate that these rumours have been circulated, because I am aware of the disturbing effect they have on business. As I said last night, however, that it is not the fault of the Minister of Finance, and it is most unusual for the Minister of Finance either to confirm or to deny rumours of this kind. I felt obliged to do it, for the reasons I gave in the house. I have nothing to add to what I said at that time.



EMBARGO ON SHIPMENTS TO THE UNITED STATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Charles Elwood Stephenson: May I ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture? Rumours are abroad that the embargo on cattle may be lifted, and this is having a serious effect on business. Is the minister prepared to indicate whether the embargo will be lifted?


Right Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture):: There is nothing I can add to what I said yesterday.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. S. ZAPLITNY (Dauphin):: May I ask the Minister of Agriculture a question. Is he in a position to report to the house any progress in connection with the proposed conference between the municipalities, provincial officials and his department on the subject of prairie farm assistance?


James Garfield Gardiner: I discussed the matter when I was in the west recently. Some disturbances had taken place in the west. I have nothing further to report at the moment but I hope there will be something shortly.

Supply-Finance



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. RODNEY ADAMSON (York West):: I should like to ask the Minister of Finance a question arising out of an article that appears in today's press with regard to a reported $300 million fund which is lying in the United Kingdom for the use of Canada. Is there truth in that story?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have not the faintest idea. I have never heard of it.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is on the front page of the Gazette today.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald! (Brantford City) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-
Wartime prices and trade board-
87. Administration, $3,990,040.
Stanley Howard Knowles: When the house rose last night I was in the process of questioning the minister with regard to the wartime prices and trade board, and specifically I was trying to find out whether the board, in anticipation of the government doing something about the report of the prices committee, hiad any plans worked out for the reimposition of some price controls and some subsidies.
It does seem to us on this side of the house that it was not an accident that the prices committee recommended the proposal which it brought forward. One of those proposals was for a qualified and selective return to the principle of controls and subsidies, and I would hope that the wartime prices and trade board might already have some of the machinery set up for taking these steps. Can the minister tell us whether that is so?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The existing organization of the wartime prices and trade board is there, but as yet no special instructions have been given in connection with the matters referred to by my hon. friend.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In other words, the wartime prices and trade board will not act of its own motion, but upon instructions from the government.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Quite so.


Stanley Howard Knowles: So that the basic question is still whether or not government policy will be changed to meet the recommendations passed by this house the other night. May I ask the minister what has happened to the staff of the wartime prices and trade board in the last number of months, or for such period as he may have the figures? Has the personnel been maintained at the strength of a year ago, or has it been increased or reduced?


Douglas Charles Abbott: At April 1, 1947, the staff of the board' was 3,920; at May 31, 1948, it was 1,277.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does the minister or the chairman of the board, who is in front of him, feel that the present staff of the board can dlo an effective job in implementing the recommendations of the prices committee?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Well, the recommendations of the prices committee were pretty guarded in their terms.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No doubt about that.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Naturally, the extent to which it may be considered advisable to re-embark on price oontrol will govern the number of employees and the type of organization which the board will have to maintain. I repeat, however, that it is not anid never has been the intention of the government to go back into an over-all price control, or wage control, which is a necessary corollary to that. I think it is fair to say that any ceilings which may be reimposed will be very limited, and that is my understanding of the recommendations of the prices committee.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister said that the recommendations of the prices committee were very guarded. Not half so guarded, may I suggest, as the comments which the minister himself is making on this question. It would seem that the most apt comment on the work of the prices committee was presented to us yesterday in pictorial form in a cartoon in the Globe and Mail. Most horr. members saw it.
Air. MaoNICOL: Which way was the soldier going?


Stanley Howard Knowles: The cartoon showed a brigadier in charge, namely the Minister of National Health and Welfare-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It was a field marshal.


Stanley Howard Knowles: All right-a field marshal. He was standing there giving commands to his three soldiers, labelled "recommendations",
Supply-Finance

to "forward march" and there they stood with their faces up against a brick wall entitled "government policy". That seems to be the position, and the people of Canada have to take the rap.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have not seen the cartoon, but I want to look at it; because in my judgment, the cartoonist for the Globe and Mail is one of the beslt in the country.
While we are on this question of price control I want to bring something to the attention of the committee which I think is important. I refer to the situation which has developed in our fellow commonwealth of Australia with respect to this question of price and rent control. I have had occasion in the past to refer to the constitutional position in Canada and the constitutional power of the dominion government to continue to impose price and rent control. I know that there has been the tendency in some quarters to consider that as a rather legalistic conception and one that does not have very much practical importance. The reason I want to say what I intend to say now is that the committee and the country may appreciate its practical importance; and I want to illustrate that point by outlining to the committee just what has happened in Australia.
As hon. members know, the federal government in Australia has been controlling prices and rent, over a number of years, under wartime constitutional powers which are not unlike those possessed by the federal government in Canada. Some months ago the Australian federal government-which is and has been for some years a socialist government-introduced a law into the commonwealth parliament to amend the commonwealth act, by adding to the constitutional powers of the federal government an additional power to be known as "XIVA". That power was to be inserted in section 51 of the constitution, which reads:
51. The parliament-
That is the Australian parliament.
-shall, subject to this constitution, have power to make laws for the peace,-order, and good government of the commonwealth with respect to:
Then there is a long enumeration of the powers, and the power to be inserted was: (XIVA) Rents and prices (including charges).
The situation in Australia is this. The federal government exercises such powers as are specifically given to it under the constitution, and those which are not mentioned there belong to the state. That is the reverse of 
our position here in Canada. Nevertheless the situation is analogous in this respect, that since "property and civil rights" is not in the hands of the federal government in Australia any more than it is here, they required this specific power. That law was submitted to a referendum-the government advocated its adoption, of course-and the government put out a pamphlet entitled, "The case for and against." This pamphlet may have been seen by some hon. members; it fully and fairly, I think, states the case for the adoption of the constitutional amendment, and against it. With the indulgence of the committee I should like to read the summary of the case "for". This is the heading: "Keep the protection you have", and it reads as follows:
A "yes" vote for commonwealth legislative power over rents and prices, will permit the continuance of-
Protection against inflation; fair rentals; security against eviction; real benefit from wage and salary increases; fair value for your money; protection of your savings and deferred pay; full value for your life insurance, superannuation and social service benefits.
A "no" vote will expose you to-
Inflation, boom and depression; profiteering, rack-renting and black marketing; eviction from your home; a scramble for houses and goods, with the rich always winning; decrease in the real value of your savings; industrial unrest.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is that a fair presentation?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That was the presentation of the case for the affirmative, a- vote for this amendment. And quite fairly the pamphlet presents the case for a "no" vote. It is elaborate but I will give the summary which is given in the pamphlet. It is headed "We urge you to vote 'no'." The reasons are given as follows:
We ought not to be devising ways and means of making wartime controls permanent; we ought to be reducing them as normal conditions are restored.
The ordinary citizen will get a better deal when powers of government are divided than when they are centred at Canberra.
After the bank nationalization experience, the Chifley government should not be given another blank cheque.
"Remote control" from Canberra has produced a vast and growing army of officials, a tangle of Ted tape, inefficiency, black marketing, and injustice.
In normal times, the controls in question can be far more effectively dealt with by the states, who have full power to deal with them, and whose administration would be much closer to the people and their needs.
Centralization of administration at Canberra weakens the authority of public opinion (as the banking business has shown), and produces a spirit of official tyranny which is a sinister enemy to true democracy.

Supply-Finance
Admittedly it is a full statement of the difficulties. I am not adopting that as my own, I am putting it before the committee as the language used in the official pamphlet put out by the chief electoral officer in Australia, It was sent to me by our high commissioner there. The referendum was held on May 29-which incidentally was my birthday, although that is irrelevant.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: That is when the prince hid in the oak tree. Perhaps that has something to do with it.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The vote was overwhelmingly negative. I have the figures here. I shall not weary the committee with them; they are matters of public record. But as I say, the vote was overwhelmingly against the retention by the central government of these powers.
I am simply pointing that out to the committee for this reason. None of us can say with certainty how the Canadian people would vote if a similar issue were placed before them. In any case, that is not the procedure for making an amendment to the British North America Act. It would require an imperial statute. But it is significant that in Australia-where a labour government has been in power for some years and where presumably the idea of a controlled economy may have gained greater headway than it has here-the people in most decisive fashion declared that they did not wish to endow the federal parliament with jurisdiction over rents and prices.
Fortunately we in this country have followed what I consider to be the wise course of removing these federal controls in a gradual and orderly fashion. It has been a difficult procedure, particularly in these later stages. But I ask those who think we should have retained controls or should now re-establish them over a wide front to ponder well the results of the Australia referendum.
The Australian government now finds itself in this position. It has made no plan for the abandonment of these controls. The reports which I have received from the Australian information service indicate that the government there intend to toss rent controls back into the hands of the states about September 1. They have already abandoned rationing of beef, clothing, and the like, and they have abandoned subsidies on milk, textiles, yarn, raw cottons and so on.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Saskatchewan knows how to deal with the matter.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I should like to put this fact before the committee in as objective a fashion as I can, to reinforce the point which I have tried to make from the beginning in connection with this decontrol program: the federal government has not the constitutional power to continue these controls indefinitely. Parliament has given that right to the government until March 31 next. It is open to challenge at any time in the courts. One can appreciate the chaotic condition which might be created in this country if it were held, as it might well be held, that the federal government had no power to continue these controls indefinitely. I think that fact should be appreciated by every hon. member and by every person in this country. I have brought the Australian situation to the attention of the committee because I do not know whether its full implications have been realized in Canada.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Just for the record could the minister give the figures of the Australian vote, to the nearest- hundred thousand, or as
a percentage?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes, I can give it very simply. The "yes" vote was 1,645,000, in round figures; the "no" was 2,354,000.


Angus MacInnis: I think it would have been better if the minister had made .the other evening, when we were discussing the report of the prices committee, the speech he has just made. It would have given the house a better understanding of the sincerity of that report as far as the government was concerned. The house accepted that report on the assumption that something would be done, and now it is made quite clear that nothing will be done. *


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is not correct.


Angus MacInnis: The minister says the report was very guarded but, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre says, it was not half as guarded as the minister is. It would have been much better, much more in line with honest dealings, to tell the people of this country, when the report was being discussed, what was to be done.
The minister refereed to the Australian referendum. I am glad he did that, and glad also that he read the statements made for and against the question of controls. He pointed out that there is a socialist government in Australia. I am glad he did that, because in my opinion there is no other case on record in which a government, in presenting a referendum, has put the case for both sides as fairly as was done in this case. I hope my hon. friend will take note of that.
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Douglas Charles Abbott: I readily acknowledge
that.


Angus MacInnis: We have not a referendum system in this country, and as far as we know the people of Canada have not given any mass expression of opinion in opposition, not to indefinite controls, but to controls as long as the present abnormal situation exists. The committee was appointed in February on the assumption by the government that prices had reached their limit. Early in the year, the minister himself Said that the price index would possibly go to 146, and then begin to decline. The assumption was, "We will appoint this committee. By the time the session ends and the committee comes to report, prices will have fallen, and we will be able to tell the people of Canada how successful the committee was." Prices have not fallen, and reports are that they will be much higher a month from now than they are today. And if prices are higher, as they will be, the condition of the people of Canada will be worse than it is today. All we have now is a report from the prices committtee, containing very guarded proposals, together with the assurance from the minister in charge that even those proposals will not be put into effect.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have not made any such statement.


Angus MacInnis: I know the minister did not use those words.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Then do not say you have had an assurance from the minister.


Angus MacInnis: But we have to judge the statement in the light of conditions. The minister says we have not the constitutional right to institute price controls. The referendum or Gallup poll taken in Canada some months ago indicated that 76 per cent of the people were in favour of controls. Of course if the government is not going to stabilize prices by government action of some sort the minister might as well tell the people of Canada there is nothing he can do to keep prices more in line with income. And if there is nothing he can do, then the people will have to take the necessary steps to try and keep their income in line with prices. So then where are we?


Mr. BLACKMORE:: The discussion that has been going on about price control is exceedingly interesting to me. It is also a matter of vital importance to the Social Credit party, which believes it has the only possible solution to this price situation. Nevertheless I do not propose to follow my hon. friends in a discussion of the matter of prices, except to say

briefly that as far as I can judge the high prices we now endure had their fundamental and primary cause in the increase in the price of steel which was permitted back in 1946. That price increase has pyramided into increases in the prices of many commodities which are directly or indirectly dependent on steel.
What can be done at present to revert to the position we occupied at the beginning of 1946 would require some very wise men indeed to determine.
I will say, however, as all hon. members readily recognize, that there is only one sure way to keep down prices. That is to increase production. The big problem we must face, then, is how to increase production, and it is about that aspect of the matter I should like to talk for a short time, concentrating my attention on the beet sugar industry.
I am quite sure the people as a whole, and probably hon. members of this house, are not vividly aware of the degree to which the beet sugar industry could increase production in Canada. In beginning my talk I should like to point out that- on February 24 of this year I received a letter from a prominent beet sugar producer, in which he used these unhappy words: "We have been turned down on all counts." He was referring particularly to the response by the Minister of Finance to the representations of a group of men who approached him asking that certain adjustments should be made this year in respect to the beet sugar situation, which adjustments they believed would result in the signing of a great many more contracts for the production of beets this year all through Ontario and Alberta. The minister turned down those people, and for a few moments I should like to talk to the minister about that matter.
I might as well tell the committee what these men asked. They wanted the minister to agree to buy the sugar they would produce in Canada this year at the same price he would have to pay for Santo Domingo raw cane sugar brought to Canada, processed in Montreal and marketed here. They considered that a very fair and moderate request; but whatever his future intentions may be, the minister turned them down completely. They also asked that the fixed valuation of sugar for import should be reimposed. That was refused, too.
Some hon. members will recall that on May 13, 1948, as recorded at page 3911 of Hansard, I spoke on the subject of "Sugar beets and the Soil", a matter of vital importance to Canada at the present time. In the course of that speech I produced evidence to prove

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that sugar beet culture always improves the soil. I should like to quote a short statement in that connection:
Statistics show an increase in the yield of crops in every country where the raising of sugar beets has been introduced.
That is taken /rom "The Sugar Beet in America," at page 257. It is to be found in reference 106, 1939, page 48, tariff board.
It is my purpose today to speak about "Sugar beets and Canada's Food Production", because these matters pertain directly to the question which we are discussing today and which is receiving the attention of the nation from coast to coast. The subject is timely. Everyone is talking and thinking about food. Hundreds of millions of people throughout the world are hungry and undernourished all the time, an experience which perhaps no one of us here has undergone unless it was during the war or some time like that. Scores of millions have not the soil resources from which to produce their required food. The average amount of arable and other cultivated land in all countries is 1-30 acres per capita, while in Canada it is 5-04 acres. Those figures were given in the Royal Bank of Canada monthly letter of June, 1948.
I should like to summarize an article which appeared in the Ottawa Evening Citizen of May 20 entitled, "The world's great need of food." This reads:
The world's food production must be increased to meet the needs of an additional 29,000,009 people each year, besides keeping pace with current needs, declared Australian director of agriculture Frank W. Bulock, in a review of the work of UjN., FAO.
He said a planned world agriculture called for the opening up of new lands, the application of every possible scientific aid and the prevention of unnecessary loss of cattle and crops.
That is exactly the text from which I propose to speak. If she is wise, Canada will recognize her duty toward the world with regard to food production and she will make broad her shoulders and assume an ample share of the food production burdens of mankind. We should not wait too long, because the need is immediate. People are hungry right now while we sit here in this chamber. They can see nothing but the prospects of being hungry for years to come. That is no small matter.
At the same time we should bear in mind those Canadians yet unborn who should have at their disposal soil as rich and as good as the soil which we possess at this time. If they are to have such soil we must adopt measures in this land that will preserve the fertility of 5849-390i
our soil to be passed on to future generations. What shall we do? Let us not forget the beet sugar industry in our planning.
By growing sugar beets our people can produce more food per acre-I want to point this out solemnly to the minister as a statement which he cannot gainsay-than they can by the use of any other crop known to man. So if we want to produce food in Canada let us not eoldshoulder the beet sugar industry. By using sugar beets our people can produce such abundance of food as only sugar beets can produce and actually improve their soil, as I have pointed out in previous speeches. From year to year they can improve the fertility, the fibre, the friability, the tilth and the health of their soil. They can increase everything that goes to make good soil.
May I say once more that this is a matter of importance, it is something for responsible men in a government like ours to consider. An acre of good Canadian land can produce food to the extent that I have indicated; and besides sugar beets are the surest crop there is in Canada, particularly in irrigated areas. Already there is beginning to be grave anxiety concerning the crops in western Canada. All over the land we are having drought which may result in almost complete crop failure. But there will be no failure in the irrigated areas where sugar beets are being raised.
An average acre of Canadian sugar beet land will produce ten tons of sugar beets. That in turn will produce 3,000 pounds of sugar at the average extraction rate of 300 pounds per ton. It will produce 2,000 pounds of dried beet tops at the average rate of 200 pounds per ton of beets. It will produce 1,000 pounds of dried beet pulp at the average rate of 100 pounds per ton of beets. It will produce 800 pounds of beet molasses at the average rate of four per cent of the beets, or 80 pounds per ton of beets.
But the production is much greater than that, as I should like to draw to the minister's attention. The 2,000 pounds of dried beet tops would be equivalent to 1,000 pounds of grain feed on the accepted basic formula that a pound of dried beet tops is equal to half a pound of grain. It would be equal to 1.500 pounds of alfalfa hay and 460 pounds of grain as used in a feed ration for cattle, this being worked out on the formula of 200 pounds of dried beet tops replacing 150 pounds of alfalfa and 46 pounds of grain.
The beet pulp would be the equivalent of 139-9 pounds of ground barley, 636 pounds of alfalfa hay and 44-2 pounds of molasses for every ton of siloed beet pulp. These figures are shown in the report of the Alberta beet growers for 1941, page 27.
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But I would point out to the minister that an acre can produce much more than ten tons of beets.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As high as 18 tons.


John Horne Blackmore: I have computed my figures on the basis of 10 tons to the acre, but may I show the minister what is being done in my constituency. As I said, an acre can produce much more than 10 tons. The average yield in Alberta for a given 12 years has ranged from 9-96 tons per acre to 14-10 tons per acre. The average for the 12 years was 12-05 tons per acre, much greater than the 10 tons per acre which I have used. Higher yields are being obtained all the time. In 1947 there were many farmers in Alberta who raised as much as 15 tons per acre on substantial acreages.
I am taking my figures from a little booklet entitled "Silver Sunshine" prepared by the beet sugar manufacturers in Alberta. I hold in my hand the spring edition for 1948. Page 32 gives the details of what Mr. W. E. Bullock of Taber has done, and I quote:
His contract now centres around the 100-aere mark and has a four year average of 16 tons per -acre.
In the light of the figures I have given to the minister, the production from this man's activities are colossal, almost inconceivable. Sixteen tons to the acre and over 100 acres to be taken care of by one man. Then Mr. Jesse H. Wilde of Welling, in my constituency, is referred to on page 28 as follows:
Since the factory began operations in 1925, he has not only been a consistent grower but has grown an average of over 100 acres of beets a year. During this time his beets have produced 72,000, 100-pound bags of sugar or enough to supply the needs of 3,600 people for the past 23 years.
That is the production of one man in the growing of sugar beets, an industry which the minister has not yet learned to appreciate. The article states further:
In 1947 from the 110 acres of beets grown, he had an average of 14-98 tons per acre.
Then Ivan Harris of Taber is referred to on page 31 as follows:
Ivan Harris has again raised the highest tonnage for the year 1947, 22-6 tons per acre on 30-5 acres. This is not an unusual occurrence for Ivan as his seven-year average is over 29 tons per acre.
If the minister would only think about what can be done, if he would only bear in mind that the new Lethbridge southeastern water conservation -project, which the minister is providing money to build, will bring 345,000 acres of land under irrigation and be rendered capable of such astounding production of food

as I have indicated by the statements concerning these men, I am sure the beet sugar industry would have his support. If this irrigation project is to be made to contribute to the national life and welfare of Canada as it can be, the minister must adopt those national policies which will render it possible for that to be accomplished.
Just think of the food and feed produced by Ivan Harris on an acre of land! Imagine one of Ivan Harris' acres producing sugar beets at the rate of twenty tons to the acre! That would mean, with 300 pounds of sugar produced per ton of sugar beets, there would be 6,000 pounds of sugar.


Mr. IRVINE:: We would be overwhelmed in sweetness.


John Horne Blackmore: cured in one of three ways: first, by piling in the field in small piles and hauling from field to field; second, by piling in field as topped, hauling and piling in a lot adjacent to the feed yard and feeding from there; third, in siloing the fresh green tops. Beet tops are greatly relished by sheep and cattle. This can be verified by reference to "Silver Sunshine" fall, 1946, page 32. Mr. W. R. Hughes, L.N.I.D., beet growers' secretary, returning from a demonstration of the Keist beet harvester at Pocatello, Idaho, said that in that part of Idaho the growers claimed that when tops were taken fresh and crisp from that harvester they were easily siloed as topped, and that tops so handled and used for feed were just as valuable as the beets sold to the factory. Not only have you the value of the beets, but you have just as great value in the tops. Tops properly siloed are worth just as much as the beets; livestock prefer beet top silage above other feeds. These facts may be found in the booklet "Silver Sunshine", spring of 1948, page 22.
We come now to the by-product, beet pulp. This valuable stock feed is used either moist in the condition it is in right after the sugar is extracted, or dried after the moisture has been processed away. Dried beet pulp is very valuable feed. There is no other product on the market which possesses its virtue. It is both an appetizer and a conditioner. It makes cattle eat more of other food, digest it better and improve themselves in condition. Milk cows fed with it produce more milk per pound of feed consumed. Feeders fed with it gain weight faster and more flesh per pound of feed. Show cattle 'take on a bloom which cannot be produced as economically in any other way. This can be verified by referring to reference 106-39 at page 51. W. M. Hermis, R. E. Miller and R. D. Jones in Sugar Beet Bulletin, volume 5 (1941), No. 3 at paragraphs 61 to 63 say:
A ton of siloed pulp replaced 139-9 pounds of ground barley, 636 pounds of alfalfa hay and 44-2 pounds of molasses.
See Alberta Sugar Beet Growers, 1941 report at page 27.
What is the value of the by-product molasses? Beet molasses consists of sucrose, 50 per cent by weight, soluble salts and water. It is rich in potash; it contains some nitrogen. Beet molasses is useful as a stock feed and as a fertilizer. It is useful for yeast making and distilling. It mixes well with dried beet pulp. This has also been discussed in reference 106-39 at page 52.
Molasses is used increasingly in chemical processes, according to Messrs. F. 0. Licht in memoranda prepared for the economic committee of the league of nations, 1929, at page 25.

It is used in connection with yeast. Molasses was declared chemicals by munitions and supply during the war, as is recorded in the 1941 report at page 12.
Let me stop and reason with the minister for just a minute or two. He sees all these tremendously valuable products which would be of outstanding importance in case of war, and yet he ignores the production of them.
A general idea of the value of beet byproducts in stock feeding may be gained from the following: experiments at agricultural college at Bozeman, Montana, found that to produce a 300 pound gain on each of twenty-one head of 650-pound yearling cattle required 67-2 tons -of wet pulp, 3-4 tons of beet molasses, 16-8 tons of cured dried tops, 8-4 tons of grain and 8-4 tons of alfalfa. That is referred to in the Alberta Co-operative Beet Growers 1938 report, page 10. Notice that every one of these ingredients used in feeding this stock, including the grain, comes directly either from the beets or from the rotation crops used in the production of beets.
The results are equally impressive in feeding dairy cattle. May I stop to comment on the dairy situation. In Canada we are in danger of being short of dairy products. There is no product in the Dominion of Canada that can produce milk to compare with beet pulp and beet tops. If we are to produce milk let us get the facilities with which our farmers can produce it. In Alberta in 1943 29,306 acres, averaging 10-20 tons an acre supported 32,000 cattle and 125,000 sheep and lambs according to C. 'O. Asplund in the 1943 Beet Growers' report at page 21. An almost incalculable amount of milk can be produced from the use of beet pulp and other by-products, alfalfa hay and sweet clover, together with a portion of grain.
May I summarize? Food and feed products from 25,000 acres: beets, 250,000 tons; sugar,
75.000.	000 pounds; dried beet tops, 50.000.000 pounds; dried beet pulp 25,000,000 pounds; molasses, 20,000,000 pounds; grain equivalent of dried beet tops, 25,000.000 pounds; alfalfa hay equivalent and grain equivalent, 37,500,000 pounds of alfalfa hay and 11,500,000 pounds of grain.
A very heavy loss to Canada in one year!
What could have motivated the Minister of Finance to inflict upon Canadians a loss as huge as this? Yet that is exactly what he did. Add to that consideration the salutary effect upon Canadian soil which would have resulted from raising these beets. Twenty-five thousand acres of sugar beets would cause a soil improvement crop rotation as follows:
25.000,	multiplied by 5, or 125,000 acres of Canadian soil, according to an ordinary

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minimum crop rotation, of five years; or 25,000 multiplied by 8, or 200,000 acres, according to the Lethbridge experimental station, which has a rotation of eight years consisting of two into beets, two into wheat, 3 into alfalfa, one into wheat. Thirty tons of manure would be applied once every eight years. See the 1939 Beet Growers' report, page 17.
Now suppose we produced Canadian beet sugar for 7,500,000 Canadians, which I submit to the minister is the absolute minimum that should be considered-how can we consider this nation safe, so far as sugar supplies are concerned, if we are not producing half enough for our own needs in times as dangerous as these? How is it that no kind of reasoning can get this into the minds of the men in charge of Canada's government? Canada, with her excellent adaptability for beet production, should be producing at least her own beet sugar for 7,500,000 people.
"Sugar for 750,000 Canadians can be extracted from beets from 25,000 acres of good land. Sugar for 7,500,000 Canadians could be produced upon 10 times 25,000 or 250,000 acres of good Canadian land.
What would be the food production from such an amount of beet production? An acreage of 250,000 of beets, enough to produce the sugar needs of 7,500,000 people, would produce: beets, 10 multiplied by 250,000, or
2.500.000	tons; of sugar, 10 multiplied by
75,000,000 pounds or 750 million pounds. Dried beet tops, 10 multiplied by 50,000,000 pounds, or 500 million pounds; dried beet pulp, 10 multiplied by 25,000,000 pounds, or 250 million pounds; molasses, 10 multiplied by 20,000,000 pounds, or 200 million pounds; grain equivalent through dried beet tops, 10 multiplied by 25,000,000 pounds or 250 million pounds of grain; alfalfa hay and grain equivalent of dried beet pulp, 10 multiplied by 37,500,000 pounds of hay, 10 multiplied by 11,500,000 pounds of grain, or 375 million pounds of alfalfa hay equivalent and 115 million pounds of grain equivalent.
In addition to all these good things we could thus produce, under soil improvement rotations essential to produce such beets about
250.000	times 5, or 1,250,000 acres of land, would be improved towards the increase of food production for future years.
Canada has neglected the beet sugar industry. May I say to the minister that any minister of finance who cold-shoulders this industry does his country a serious disservice; and any government that tolerates its Minister of Finance cold-shouldering the beet sugar industry is also doing a disservice to Canada for the future as well as at the present time. Let that be borne fully in mind.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They should encourage it.


John Horne Blackmore: Undoubtedly. But all that the beet sugar industry gets from the present Minister of Finance, all that it has ever got from any of his predecessors since I have been a member of this house, is discouragement and apparently an endeavour to put something in the way of production, either to reduce or to discourage it.


The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: Order. The hon. member's time has expired.


Mr. JAENICKE:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to refer to the question raised by the Minister of Finance before the hon. member who has just resumed his seat spoke, and that is the question of the constitutionality of price control. I presume most hon. members who belong to the legal profession, as I do, will agree with the minister's opinion on the question of the constitutionality of price control, but with great respect to those opinions, and with great respect to the minister, I disagree.
I am not competent at the moment to compare the Australian constitution with our own British North America Act and I shall base my opinion on the British North America Act alone. It is my opinion that this parliament has jurisdiction in respect of anything which by inherent nature is of national importance. I think my learned friends in this house will agree with me that this is the trend of the latest decisions of the privy council, and it is my opinion that the question of price control is a subject which by its inherent nature is of national importance. Therefore it would be competent for this parliament to legislate upon that subject. I simply rose to put my views on record with regard to this constitutional question of price control.
(Translation):
- Mr. DIONNE (Beauce): Mr. Chairman, the suggestions made in the house in connection with the prices committee report have on the whole a constructive value which cannot be overlooked.
However, I cannot say the same of certain criticisms made against the report. I do not agree with the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) who contends that the people are starving due to the rise in prices. The people may be worried on account of the present unsettled conditions throughout the world-
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James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would the hon. member please speak a little louder?


Mr. DIONNE (Beauce):: -but Providence will undoubtedly help us overcome our present difficulties, as at the end of the war. Millions of persons were then working in war industries or serving in the armed forces. How many of them are unemployed today? National production has increased from 6 billions to 13 billions. When will we stop telling our people that they are on the verge of starvation and that they are unhappy, while in fact we are witnessing an era of unprecedented prosperity? Nor do I agree with the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) who suggests that rigid enforcement of price and wage controls would solve our problems. No supervisory system will increase the worker's output while decreased production is the very cause of higher prices.


Mr. FOURNIER (Maisonneuve-Rosemont):: Hear, hear.


Ludger Dionne: Moreover, as the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) has just pointed out, it seems that these controls are a provincial responsibility. If so, I would suggest that the government hand this task back to the provinces.
Why did the government set up a committee on prices? In an attempt to find means of bringing down the cost of living.
Traders and manufacturers of various commodities were called before the committee so that it might find out whether any of them were exploiting the public.
Though not a member of the committee, I closely followed its proceedings, and my personal opinion is that many of its members honestly tried to do a useful piece of work in the public interest.
Unfortunately, others took advantage of their appointment to the committee to put either themselves or their political creed in the limelight.
If there was a time when the political ideologies of certain members of the house should have been kept completely in the background, it was during the sessions of the prices committee. Unfortunately, that is not what happened.
That was evidenced when the prices committee's report was brought in. Much of the criticism in the house about the report was 
based on destructive conclusions concerning private enterprise.
I note that such destructive criticism has come mostly from people who would not know the first thing about industrial management.
The sole purpose of many of those speeches -or I should say ravings-was to make out industry as a parasite, a leech feeding on the blood of its people.
To the gentlemen whose philosophy aims solely at establishing a socialist regime in this country, I ask this one question: "What has allowed Canada to develop into one of the most beautiful countries in the world, if not private enterprise?"


Sarto Fournier: Hear, hear.


Ludger Dionne: Why then seek to cast odium on people whose sole ambition is to produce for the benefit of their country?
And those great reformers, who take up more than half the time of the house, why don't they go to the root of the evil?
W orking men appeared before the committee. Were they questioned about things they knew? Were they asked why building costs are so high nowadays, when obviously such eosts absorb most of the liquid assets of potential owners? Were they asked why they only lay 350 bricks a day at wages ranging from $1.20 to $1.50 an hour, as compared to
1,000	to 1,500 bricks a day at only 60 cents an hour a few years ago?
No such questions were puit to them.
It might be told that no building tradesmen appeared before the committee, but I can reply that the example I have just given with respect to bricklayers applies to every field of activity.
If the practised critics we have in the house had had the courage to put such questions, they would have made themselves unpopular, and of course that is what we seek above all to avoid in this house. Some party members in this house have no more concern for the public weal than for the first pair of shoes they ever wore in their native land, beyond the seas.
Does a member believe he is true to his mandate when he adopts such a course of action? Does he believe he is doing a service to the working class, in representing its members as wretched people who are shamefully exploited?

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Is that conducive to the resoration of harmony among the Canadian people? Will it bring about the solving of the many problems we are facing in these troubled times, engendered by the most terrible war that has ever devastated the world?
We are often enough taken to task in this house for not reading the debates. I shall answer for the benefit of some among us: let us make the debates less dull if we want them to be read.
(Text):


Mr. NICHOLSON:: I cannot consent to the decrease of $2,869,000 in this vote this year without offering a word of protest. I have been among the members of the house who have had words of praise for the work of the wartime prices and trade board since it was originally set up. In reply to the comments made by the minister this morning in connection with the referendum in Australia, I might say that if the people in Australia had had as happy an experience with their wartime prices and trade board as we have had with ours, the results of the referendum might have been different,
I think it would be extremely difficult to convince the majority of the people in Canada that to continue the wartime prices and trade board and subsidies for a longer period is not in the public interest. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre yesterday referred to an item that is of interest in homes where there are infants who cannot be brought up on human milk. He mentioned two cans of beef which were sold at the beginning of June for twenty-nine cents. The price of those two cans now is forty-two cents, an increase of forty-five per cent in this one item from June 1 until the end of June. I know that beef prices have gone up, but I would be surprised if the beef used in the manufacture of this product had been bought since the increase. If you had a wartime prices and trade board functioning as that board functioned during the war, enlisting the co-operation of consumers all across Canada, you would have some protection for the consumer, and you would not have a forty-five per cent increase in this one item in the month of June without action being taken.
The members of this group have spoken about possible action of the government following the report of the prices committee, but I am afraid that few in parliament or out of it will expect any vigorous action as a result of this report. I might remind the committee that two years ago, just in the closing days of the session, on going into supply, I had
the privilege of moving an amendment in connection with the milk subsidy. The motion was:
This house desires to record its opinion that consideration should be given to the continuance of the milk subsidy so as to ensure adequate return to milk producers and make possible the consumption of milk for the nutrition of the Canadian people without any further increase in the price thereof to the consumers.
Hon. members will recall that a majority of the members who were in parliament that day supported this amendment. The government promised to give consideration to the expression of opinion of the house, and consideration was given; but nothing was done to establish subsidies or to ensure that the consumers would be able to consume as much milk as before, without an increase in cost.
It is exceedingly difficult for the average consumer or producer in Canada to understand why the government can end the year with such a large surplus and- cannot find ways and means to provide subsidies for essential commodities. During one period in the war, more than a million of our youngest and strongest people were in our war services and war industries, and we were giving large quantities of food as mutual aid. But at that time we were able to consume more milk, 'butter and eggs in our homes than we did before the war, and more than we are consuming now. With so many of our veterans home, and with no disaster in most parts of Canada, with exception of British -Columbia, to interfere with our production, why it should be necessary to cut down our consumption of many of these foodstuffs ;s surely a matter -of concern to the Minister of Finance.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I must register my word of protest, I should like the minister to give the committee some information with regard- to the provision that has been made for historical documents to report on the work of the wartime prices and trade board, I might indicate that at some time we hope to form the government in Canada; and I am sure that the experience of the wartime prices and trade board during those years will be most useful. I have been disturbed a number of times when I have tried to get information from the wartime prices and trade board, to find that more consideration has not 'been given to preparing documentary information that should be available to all members of parliament. Would the minister indicate what staff is now working on the
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compilation of documentary material which will be available to Canadians now and in years to come, dealing with the work of the board?


Douglas Charles Abbott: In direct answer to the last question, I think there are three people devoting full time to the work referred to by my hon. friend, and of course their work is supplemented by that of some other members of the staff. The reports of the board are public documents, but in addition a complete and I think accurate historical record of the work of the board during the war years is being compiled in accordance with privy council instruction. As will be the case with other documents, it is to be deposited in the office of the privy council to form a permanent record in case of future need.


Mr. GLADSTONE:: Has the government power to reduce, by order in council, without legislation, the tariff, the excise tax or the sales tax?


Douglas Charles Abbott: In connection with the
special excise tax put on last fall, as I said in a statement I made here some time ago, it may be removed by proclamation, directed by order in council. That is under section 5 of the act, I think, which I quoted in the house. With respect to certain tariff items I believe specific provision is made to lower the tariffs by executive order. I am not too conversant with the technical provisions of the tariff act. Then of course it is always open to remit duties under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act. The general rule with respect to the removal of taxes, of course, is that they are made the subject matter of a budgetary presentation and discussion in the house.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Though we do not all talk about profiteering as much as my hon. friends to the immediate left, and we do not ascribe the whole of the price increase in recent months to that cause, I think we are all as interested as they are in preventing profiteering and in prosecuting those who charge unjust and unreasonable prices. Would the minister give us some account of the working of the just and reasonable clause under the present powers of the wartime prices and trade board. As I understand it they have power to initiate action whenever in their view prices have been fixed which are unreasonable and unjust. What prosecutions have been launched under that provision in the last twelve months, and what steps have been taken to see that full use is made of that clause? I take it the procedure is to bring actions in the courts and leave it to the courts to determine whether the prices really are unjust and unreasonable.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The most recent and up to date information on that point is contained in the report of the prices committee, so hon. members have that. Speaking from memory I think about twelve prosecutions have been instituted within the comparatively recent past. There have been two or three convictions so far-


Mr. MARTIN:: Three.


Douglas Charles Abbott: -and the other cases are sub judice. Some other investigations are proceeding. If my hon. friend would like more up-to-date information I can get it a little later.
While I am on my feet, what is the wish of the committee with respect to sitting from one o'clock until two o'clock, as was done yesterday? I do not make any positive suggestion; I am in the hands of the committee. If the committee would like to do so I am quite prepared to continue.


Howard Charles Green: The official opposition are ready to sit right through.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That would meet my own wishes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I think a compromise on one hour might be more acceptable; sit until two and then rise for an hour.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is entirely agreeable so far as I am concerned.


The CHAIRMAN:: In order to make sure of the procedure, is it unanimously agreed that the committee shall sit until two o'clock?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The report of the prices committee shows that twelve prosecutions have been launched. I understand there have been three convictions and other cases are pending.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Nine cases pending.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That only covers the period since the committee began its sittings. When the minister gives the further details, will he let us know what investigations the board is undertaking on its own, independently?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have sent out to see if I can get that information. Some investigations are pending, but I am trying to get the information for my hon. friend.


Edmund Davie Fulton: When the minister does that, will he also cover the procedure followed in bringing these matters before the courts?


Douglas Charles Abbott: In the month of May there were 7,319 investigations; and since we have a staff of 175 investigators, that represents an average of 42 investigations per man. This

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indicates that the staff of the board are constantly checking these matters when complaints are received. The method of initiating prosecutions is the usual method; that is to say, an official of the board makes a complaint in the magistrate's court, a summons is issued and counsel is retained by the board to prosecute the case. Counsel, of course, is appointed by the Minister of Justice. Prosecutions of all types in May totalled 127.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Under the just and reasonable clause?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No; that is all kinds of prosecutions, for price infractions or whatever they may be. Whether the twelve mentioned were all in May, I am not in a position to say.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What I had in mind in connection with the procedure followed in bringing these matters before the courts really was this. Does the board, in making its investigations and laying these charges, do so in any sense as a deterrent, where they think there is simply reasonable ground for supposing a price is unjust and unreasonable, with a view to deterring others from charging similar prices? Or do they only prosecute in a bare minimum of cases, where they are certain there are unjust and unreasonable prices?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have discussed the general principles with the officials of the board. Let me say the board is not using these prosecutions as a form of terrorism. I told them prosecutions should be instituted only when they are satisfied that the evidence provides a good prima facie case. They need not have a case which, let us say, is beyond question; not many eases would fall into that category. It is the duty of the courts to determine whether a case is good or bad; but I think there is a duty on the board not to bring a man before the courts on a penal charge of this kind unless there is a good prima facie case. These provisions are not and should not be used as a means of persecution. Is that what my hon. friend had in mind?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes; and I entirely agree. Therefore it seems to me one would be justified in saying that, while the board is not too narrowly restricted in the cases it brings forward, that there has been only this comparatively small number of prosecutions under that provision is at least indicative of the fact, and certainly shows the board is satisfied, that the profiteering aspect has not had the effect on the increase in prices that is sometimes made out.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think that is indicated in the report of the prices committee, which indicated that so-called profiteering was not a significant factor in the increase in prices.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The minister said there were some 7.000 investigations in May. Was that a typical month?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There were 7,300 odd in May, and I am told it was fairly typical.


John Horne Blackmore: The minister has not had an opportunity to put his case before the country in connection with the application for consideration this spring of the beet sugar producers. I am going to ask a few questions which will enable him to give the producers the answers to the questions they want to have answered.
The first question is: Did Mr. S. R. Noble
recommend on November 2 that the sugar ceiling price be advanced to $1.15 in order to give beet sugar true parity with cane?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Of course I am not the expert on sugar that the hon. member for Lethbridge is. I listened with interest to his speech and I shall have to study at another time the figures which he gave. I do not suppose there is any hon. member who has a greater knowledge of the beet sugar business than he has. This is a large enterprise in his constituency. The increase in the ceiling price of sugar which took place last November was in line with the increase in world prices. My recollection is that at the same time we restored the normal duties under the tariff which gave some protection to the domestic producer of beet sugar. I do not know whether I can say anj'thing further on the point raised.


John Horne Blackmore: I am afraid the
minister was not able to hear just what I asked. Did Mr. S. R. Noble recommend on November 2 that the ceiling price on sugar be increased to $1.15 in order to give beet sugar parity with cane?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No. I do not think Mr. Noble recommended that. The recommendation I received was from the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board. The action taken would be the responsibility of the government on the advice of the board,


John Horne Blackmore: The information which I have, which probably has not come to the minister, is that Mr. S. R. Noble did so recommend. I think he deserves credit for that action, which to some extent makes up for his past misdeeds. I have another ques-
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tion. Did Mr. K. W. Taylor grant an increase of only |1, refusing the $1.15 recommended by Mr. Noble?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The increase was one cent a pound. That was the amount recommended to the government by the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board.


John Horne Blackmore: I should like to know why' Mr. Taylor refused to accept the recommendation of Mr, Noble to the extent of 15 cents per hundred. I should like to find out the underlying principle. The beet sugar industry would like to find out what was behind the government's madness. I would not like to say that there was some ulterior motive-	*


Douglas Charles Abbott: Certainly not that.


John Horne Blackmore: -but when Mr. Noble recommended 11.15, I should like to know why Mr. Taydor cancelled or refused that and granted only SI.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am informed that there was no formal recommendation from Mr. Noble of $1.15. Mr. Taylor could not overrule a recommendation which he did not receive.


John Horne Blackmore: I have given the information I have. I wanted to give Mr. Noble all the credit that was due, because I have said some rather harsh things about him in the past. I still think that he recommended an increase of SI.15, and I still want to know why Mr. Taylor limited the increase to $1, why beet sugar was not brought up to parity.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think Mr. Taylor felt that was the appropriate amount by which the ceiling should be increased. Sugar is a commodity in use in every household in Canada, and it was felt that a one cent per pound increase was appropriate.


John Horne Blackmore: What considerations were in the minds of Mr. Taylor and his advisers? I am going to ask a few questions to help the minister to see why' our minds are full of questions.
Did S. R. Noble tell a delegation of beet sugar producers on January 19, 1948 that the average f.o.b. island cost of raw cane sugar was $4.81; that the duty' was 82 cents; the average freight, 50 cents; the cane refining spread, $1.95, or a total of $8.08?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am sorry, I have no information on that matter.


John Horne Blackmore: My information is
that Mr. Noble did give that information to the beet growers. In fact I 'have a wire to that

effect. A copy' of the wire was sent to the minister; and I do not blame the minister for not remembering it. The wire was sent to him on February 11, 1948, and those facts were set out. If the minister looks through his files he will probably find the wire. Did Mr. S. R. Noble tell the same delegation that $8.08 was 19 cents above the current refined selling price? My information is that he did.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have no information as to what Mr. Noble may have told that meeting.


John Horne Blackmore: What is the present refined selling price? Is it still $8.08, or is it $7.89?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There has been no change since November 18.


John Horne Blackmore: Then it must be $7.89. Is it not a fact that there is a 19-cent subsidy on cane sugar? The minister say's that he is not willing to give a subsidy on beet sugar.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I would not think that there would be any' subsidy' to the cane producers, because the laid-down cost varies from month to month.


John Horne Blackmore: If the laid-down
refined cost of cane sugar should be found to be 19 cents higher than the price being paid for beet sugar in Canada, then in effect the cane sugar producers in Santo Domingo are being given a 19-cent subsidy' when Canadian producers of beet sugar were denied a subsidy.


Douglas Charles Abbott: There has been no subsidy paid to any cane sugar producer. We have bought our supplies of cane sugar in accordance with international arrangements at the going rate.


John Horne Blackmore: If you bought cane sugar for 19 cents more than yrou could have bought beet sugar, if y'ou had been willing to make an agreement, then in effect you were pay'ing a subsidy'.


Douglas Charles Abbott: As my' 'hon. friend knows, sugar is bought from different sources. The Santo Domingo sugar to which he has referred is higher than the Cuban sugars.


John Horne Blackmore: The astonishing thing to any person who thinks the way I think, and I think I sometimes think straight- the astonishing thing to the people whom I represent is that the minister should be willing to go into the Santo Domingo market and bargain for hundreds of thousands of tons of sugar at a price when he is unwilling to go into the Canadian market and bargain with the beet sugar producers for a similar price. They were left to sell on the world market, but he was quite willing to give a

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guaranteed price to the Santo Domingo producer. How does the minister work that out to sense?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The sugars to which my hon. friend refers were bought through the British ministry of food as an open market operation, just the same as any other commodity would be purchased. Certain quantities would be bought in certain areas. I am not a technical expert on the purchase of sugar, but I am informed that that is the procedure followed. The same procedure was followed in connection with the purchase of sugar right through the war.


John Horne Blackmore: I cannot understand why the minister should give a certain price for sugar to the cane producer in a United States dollar area and not be able to give a similar guarantee to the beet sugar producers so that their operations could be made secure.


Mr. POULIOT:: May I tell the hon. member for Lethbridge that that is one of the fallacies of imperial trade. My hon. friend knows very well that the cost price of sugar in Havana is much less than it is in any British possession. It is the duties that make the difference in cost. Last year I asked a question in the house which was answered by the then parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance, now the Minister of Fisheries. He told me that the price of sugar from British possessions was lower than the price of sugar from Havana, and that was true, not taking the duty into account. It is the duties on empire trade which make us pay much more for sugar. The British preference is a fallacy. I hope my hon. friend will understand that. I am all for the beet sugar industry, but I wonder whether beet sugar can sweeten things just as well as cane sugar does.


John Horne Blackmore: Just as well.


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not know. I have been to some stores and bought beet sugar and I had to put great tablespoonfuls of it in my coffee to sweeten it.


Mr. LOW:: The best chemist in the world cannot tell the difference between them.


Jean-François Pouliot: It was not a chemist but my palate that told me. I found that its sweetening properties were just an illusion. Perhaps I am mistaken; I am not an expert like my hon. friend. But I want him to admit that imperial trade is a fallacy. The high duty on foreign sugar is imposed just so that we will pay less for sugar that comes from British possessions. Why should we buy our sugar from the British ministry of food? The
government there is making socialist experiments. Why should we buy our sugar from them? They control sugar, they control tea, they control everything, and afterwards they complain of poverty. We should deal, as we did before, with private merchants, and then Canada would be much better off. But as it is now we have to deal in a socialist manner with a socialist government. I am against it, and I trust I shall have the support of the hon. member for Lethbridge, who is so strong against socialism. This is the time to show his sincerity by protesting against the purchase of sugar from the British ministry of food.
I hope he will. We know that he is sincere, and now that he has the opportunity to demonstrate his sincerity, let him seize it.


John Horne Blackmore: It is not so much a matter of sincerity as a matter of knowledge and understanding.


Jean-François Pouliot: I speak in black and white.


John Horne Blackmore: Exactly. But from
my knowledge and understanding of this question I could not possibly agree with the hon. member. What I object to is that Canada should buy sugar from Santo Domingo, a United States dollar country, and pay United States dollars for that sugar, and buy it at higher prices than she is willing to pay to our own Canadian producers.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is on account of the customs duties.


John Horne Blackmore: No, it is not. I shall be glad to discuss that privately with my hon. friend, but just now I want the minister to answer two or three questions.
The Canadian Sugar Factories Limited will go through my constituency at the beginning of the year and say to the farmers: We will pay you a certain price for all the beets you can produce on so many acres. It is definitely agreed before you plant the seed that you are to get a guaranteed minimum price, and then we will allow you to participate in the profits we make as we dispose of the sugar, the beet pulp and other by-products.
What I cannot see is why the government of Canada cannot make a similar agreement with the producers of beet sugar. Why cannot the government say to the Canadian sugar factory in Raymond: If you are going to pay your farmers a certain price for beets, we will pay you a certain price for sugar, which will constitute your cost of production and a fair profit, and you may be positively certain that every pound of sugar you produce you will be able to sell to the government at a certain
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minimum price. You may get more than that minimum price, but not less; and you will be able to sell all of your sugar.
That is a perfectly sound proposition for the government to make. Can the minister say why the government should not make such an offer today?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Last November I stated that the government proposed that sugar should be sold at its average laid-down cost, and that will be carried out. As to the views of the beet sugar producers, it might be well if I were to read to the committee a resolution passed by the association and quoted by me in a letter to the secretary of the association on March 3. Here is what the association resolved:
And whereas it is the considered opinion of the directors of this association that quick recovery and normal expansion of this important agricultural industry can only be brought about by return to a completely free sugar economy, without any government buying and selling of raw cane sugar and dictating sales prices of refined sugar;
Now therefore be it resolved to ask the government and all members of parliament to ask the sugar beet districts that the last remnants of sugar control be abolished by March 31, 1948, at the latest, when the emergency powers of the sugar administrator expire;
And be it further resolved to request, if the government is long on raw cane sugar bought, that these quantities be liquidated by the sugar administrator to the cane sugar refineries according to consumption requirements at prevailing market prices including statutory duties, without any further powers of control as to imports, purchase or sales prices, in the same way as any other importer would do.


Jean-François Pouliot: The hon. member for Lethbridge knows that the price of foreign goods is the cost price plus the customs duty.


John Horne Blackmore: Of course I know that.


An hon. MEMBER:: Don't take all day.


John Horne Blackmore: I will withdraw from the field if anyone else w-ants to take it.


Mr. LENNARD:: I do not want to get the same results you do. I want to get out of this house.


John Horne Blackmore: I was elected to take care of the country's business, and when the country's business is finished I am glad to go out of the house.


Frank Exton Lennard: Then make it snappy.


John Horne Blackmore: I am trying to make it snappy, but I am calling attention to one of the most difficult problems in Canada and or.e of the most intricate.


Frank Exton Lennard: I know all that, but make it snappy.


John Horne Blackmore: Notwithstanding what those people asked for in the resolution the Minister of Finance has read, they did ask for quite another thing at another time. They submitted a letter to the minister in which they asked for specific things, and the minister will bear me out in this. I quote from the "Recommendation for guaranteed price to Canadian sugar beet producers for 1948 crop," a brief submitted January 20, 1948 by the Canadian Sugar Beet Producers Association, of Chatham, Ontario. At the end of that document they make the following request:


Douglas Charles Abbott: I know the request was that the imported price of cane sugar-


John Horne Blackmore: That is right, but it must be borne in mind that this is just about as it is with other agricultural products. When the farmer gets the chance to make a little money because of the war, the dominion government puts its hand in and says, "No, you cannot take any advantages that derive from the war." Everybody else can, but the farmer cannot. It is the same with the beet sugar producer. Just as soon as prices were good during the war they could not get any more than just a fixed price. The government was able to control prices to prevent their making what they ought to have been able to make. Now, just as soon as prices begin to fall, what beet producers want to know is whether the government is prepared to step into the picture and prevent their receiving possible losses.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I made the statement some months ago that the government did not propose to sell any kind of sugar on a subsidized basis.


John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Chairman, I want to read now the recommendation of this organization. They asked that the government-
1.	Guarantee the Canadian producer a fixed price for his 1948 crop made up as follows- sugar (at San Domingo guaranteed price) $5 per hundred pounds, freight 40 cents per hundred pounds, duty $1.29 per hundred pounds and refiners spread $1.95 per hundred pounds, a total of $8.64 per hundred pounds at Canadian refining centres. This price to be adjusted at outside points to conform with the seasonal winter or summer freight rates.
2.	Restore the fixed valuation and at a price of $5.65 per hundred pounds.
They also asked that the minister make an announcement not later than January 31, 1948, so that everybody, producers and farmers as well, would know where they were. If the minister wishes to read one of the resolutions that he has, I shall read another one.

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The minister said that he does not favour subsidization. I am not prepared to oppose that principle if everybody is given a fair deal; but to subsidize cane producers in Santo Domingo and pay them good United States dollars when he could buy his sugar from Canada and pay in good Canadian dollars is simply not reasonable from any standard whatsoever.


Jean-François Pouliot: I congratulate the hon. member for Lethbridge on his perseverance in advocating assistance to beet growers, and I am sure the minister realizes the importance of his remarks. He has done well. He has the ear of the house. He has made a fine speech, and he deserves congratulations from all for his remarks on the beet sugar industry.


John Horne Blackmore: Thank you.


Solon Earl Low: I shall see that you get ten pounds of beet sugar for that.


Mr. PROBE:: In what fields does the wartime prices and trade board still operate?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There is still a ceiling price on sugar which we have just been discussing, also cane molasses, butter, salad and cooking oils other than corn oil and olive oil; copra and palm kernels; cabbages and carrots; new potatoes. These are under markup control; grapes, oranges, grapefruit, lemons, limes and tangarines are also under markup control; canned fruit juices, imported fruit juices are under markup control, the laid down price plus an approved markup. Soap, soap based detergents of all kinds and soap compounds; primary forms of iron 'and steel; certain grains, flaxseed, rapeseed, sunflower seed, domestic shortening, flax and oils of vegetable and marine origin are under control. These are the main items. There are some others- residential rents, of course, boarding house charges, and so on.


John Oliver Probe: That covers the major field?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


John Oliver Probe: Will the minister state the present position in respect to the exceptions in the domestic rental field control?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Everything is under control. The general rental ceiling is the ceiling which prevailed in November, 1941. New construction is in this position:	Houses built since
January 1, 1947 are completely free from control. That was announced some time ago. Other building construction is under control, but there may be varying ceilings, depending on the time of construction-in other words, buildings which were constructed between
November, 1941, and January 1, 1947. These new buildings had a rent established by the rental control administration as being the fair and reasonable rental for these premises, and that rent, when established, constituted the ceiling. Then there was the increase in rentals a year ago last May for landlords who were prepared to give a two-year lease. They were authorized to increase their rents by ten per cent.
As the committee is aware, there is a provision where in cases of exceptional hardship those who purchased their properties prior to January 1, 1947-I lam speaking from memory -may apply to the rental commissioners who have been set up 'through the country. If the commissioner is of the opinion that the landlord's need is greater, he can make an order giving the owner possession of the premises. That is a broad outline of the present position of rental controls.


John Oliver Probe: With respect to that portion of it, besides the fixing of the rental itself there is the mobility of the tenant, shall we say. which is the point here under consideration. The wartime prices and trade board, with the help of the court, may decide whether or not the tenant may retain possession of a property or must move within the categories mentioned by the minister. The minister has made no statement recently with respect to the future of this domestic rental control matter. In the meantime many persons who have bought houses, hoping to enjoy possession of them themselves, are being denied that privilege by the wartime prices and trade board. In effect they are subsidizing the tenants without any assistance from the government, because the rental of the property which they bought and which they cannot have is fixed, and almost invariably they are paying rent in an uncontrolled situation or a higher rent. I think there is an element of subsidy there which the government is not meeting, but which the owner who purchased the property for occupancy himself is meeting.
I am in agreement with government policy to control rentals, but the government has not gone far enough in this field. The government has not alleviated the situation of those people who did not have shelter. Does the minister consider that the government, under the prices stabilization corporation or through some other agency, should meet the difference in rental of a bona fide purchaser who cannot get into his own house and the rental which he is receiving from his property? That has been going on for six months or so. He cannot get possession of his property. If he could
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get possession of his property, perhaps we would not receive the number of letters that we do. This is a problem which to me is the responsibility of the minister to meet in some way. What does the minister propose to do about it?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This whole question of rental control has to be pretty carefully considered. It is one of the things to which I have been giving a great deal of thought, for reasons which I think the committee will appreciate. The dominion government cannot indefinitely continue in the field of rental and eviction control. One of the fundamental features of personal and property rights is that a man should be able to get into a house he owns if he wants to. It is an extremely difficult question. The prices committee has recommended that consideration be given to alleviating cases of hardship. That was done in certain cases by the setting up of these commissioners, and they have worked satisfactorily. I think it is possible that that may be somewhat extended, but certainly the dominion government could not consider going into the field of subsidizing individual owners of property because they cannot get into their houses to live in them. That would be an almost impossible task for any central government to assume. All I can say on the question of rent control is that when I have a little more free time, after the termination of the session, it is about No. 1 on my agenda for a little careful thinking as to what can and should be done in this very difficult field.


John Oliver Probe: Is the government definitely opposed to low-rental subsidies in general? Is that the present policy of the government, to oppose subsidies to low rentals?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is a completely
different question and one on which I am not prepared to make a statement at the moment. It is different from the matter of rent control, which unfortunately is the responsibility of my department as part of the wartime controls. The question of subsidizing low-rental housing is another and very much larger question which does not relate to the emergency situation or the war situation. That is something which, if adopted, would be part of a permanent policy.


John Oliver Probe: In the emergency which still exists, and which is not likely to be eliminated for a long time as far as house rentals are concerned, subsidies are in effect being paid now by small landlords, and the government has recognized its own obligation in other

fields of emergency but apparently is neglecting this one. I realize that these commissions are establishing the relative needi as far as the bodies of their tenants are coricerned; that is, the four-member family has a greater need for certain space than the two member family. That is simple. But where a family has to pay $60 a month for space and is not receiving more than $25 for its own space, that family is in effect losing $35 a month owing to government policy. The government has an obligation to these individuals. I am sympathetic to the minister because of the headaches he will have, but at the same time he also has an obligation to solve this problem. That is why he is a cabinet minister. That is why he gets the salary he does, and that is why all these other things that go to the Hon. Douglas Abbott do go to him- because he has the ability to cope with them.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I may assure my hon. friend that while there are many interesting features about being a cabinet minister, in my own case the financial return is not an attraction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion*-
91. To provide for expenses of the cabinet committee on dominion provincial relations, $30,060.
Edmund Davie Fulton: It is two years since the dominion provincial conference was held. What functions does this committee discharge?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The initial or preparatory expenses were' somewhat heavier in previous years and were substantially in excess of current requirements because of additional staff and accountants required for the compilation of data and financial statistics. The current requirements relate only to the work of keeping the statistics up to date, and this results in a substantial reduction in the current year's provision. It is a small continuing organization to keep public finance statistics and data in connection with the various governmental bodies in Canada, dominion, provincial and municipal, readily available in the event of discussions with other governmental bodies relating to matters of common interest.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Does it co-ordinate work in regard to the tourist industry?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No. It is a purely statistical group, a fact-compiling group.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Can the minister explain why it is that this year to date there have been no payments to provinces under the dominion-provincial taxation agreements? In the statement of the comptroller of the treasury

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for the first two months of the fiscal year, at this time last year there was $63,000,000 paid under this agreement, whereas this year there has been no payment. Is there any change in the method of payment?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I cannot answer that question offhand. The comptroller is not here. The payments are made quarterly. The explanation must be that the particular payment has not fallen due in these two months. The statutory provision for these payments, as my hon. friend will see, is contained on page 12.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The payments are. made quarterly, not monthly?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. It may be that the payment is due at the end of June.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-*
9$4. To provide for the expenses of a commission to be appointed under part I of the Inquiries Act, to inquire into prices and related subjects, as recommended by the special committee on prices, $50,006.
Howard Charles Green: What sort of commission is to be set up to carry on this inquiry into prices?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am not in a position to answer that at the moment. The matter is still under consideration by the government. This item was put in in view of the recommendation contained in the prices report, and of the probable adoption of the report. I decided that an item should be included in the supplementaries and this $50,000 appears in consequence. Assuming the committee is set up, these funds will be available for its work.


Howard Charles Green: Committee or commission?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I should have said commission. It will be a commission under the Inquiries Act. Whether it will consist of one commissioner or three, I am not yet able to say.


Howard Charles Green: Is it certain there is to be a commission?


Douglas Charles Abbott: My understanding is that that is certain, yes. I think I can say that to my hon. friend. The precise way in which it will be established, whether there will be one commissioner or three, I cannot yet say.


Mr. SHAW:: Possibly this is an appropriate place for me to make the few remarks I am about to make. Were the member for Peace River here I am sure he would once more register a strenuous objection to the fact that the estimates of the Department of Finance
always come before the house in the dying hours of the session. This has happened before and it is happening again. We do not feel that at this late hour we should engage in a prolonged debate on fundamental financial policies. On the other hand, we feel that it is a most important subject. We urge the minister to give consideration at the next session to bringing his estimates before the house at an earlier date, and we also serve notice that when that is done we shall be prepared to engage in an extensive debate on fundamental financial policies which we consider to be so extremely important especially at this time.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall be glad to give that consideration. The reason the estimates are brought on towards the end, as a rule, though not always, is that opportunity for discussing financial policy occurs so frequently during the session. The outstanding example is of course in the presentation of the annual budget, when every member of the house is free to discuss such matters. He can voice his views as to government financial policy. During this session there have been many such opportunities. I have been on my feet putting some bill or other through nearly every day. I merely mention that as the reason why other departments are given the right of way.


Frederick Davis Shaw: The only thing I would interject on that point is that on most occasions we are definitely restricted. When the minister finds himself on his feet, as he states, sponsoring a certain measure, it is not alwTays possible for us to engage in debate on fundamental financial policy. I am merely serving notice that another year we will urge upon the government the necessity of bringing these estimates forward early, and will also assure the government that we shall be prepared to deal with that important subject.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like to add one word in support of what the last speaker said. I think every word he has said is true. I should like to broaden out the reference to cover not merely finance estimates but those of other departments. This has been said a hundred times and I suppose it has happened a hundred times. I submit that it is an utterly unnecessary and inefficient method to adopt, to leave these things dragging until the last moment and find that everyone feels he has pressure on him not to speak.


Douglas Charles Abbott: If hon. members opposite were a little more co-operative in allowing us
Supply-Health and Welfare

to get into supply early in the session, it might make for more expeditious handling of
the estimates.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That is not worthy of the minister.


Douglas Charles Abbott: This complaint is made every year-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Because this happens every year.


Douglas Charles Abbott: -or this suggestion which goes out to the public, that the government is deliberately delaying the bringing down of the estimates. That is not so. The estimates are brought down early in the session. It is true that by reason of debate almost every time we go into supply, it takes some time to get the estimates down; and this year because of special legislation we may have been a little later in coming to consideration of the estimates. But I repeat that this impression which is created throughout the country that government expenditures are not carefully scrutinized because members cannot get up on a particular item and make a speech which has little to do with the item, is not in accordance with the facts.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: As I have said before on another occasion, the minister is a good advocate. When he speaks firmly and even a little bit vehemently, I always know he is a little bit dissatisfied about the thing he is advocating.


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is only exasperating.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: No one is anxious to exaggerate in any way. I shall not spend fifteen seconds of the committee's time. We all know what happens and why it happens. If we are honest, we will all admit that we would be inclined to do the same thing if we ourselves were ministers. But this practice is all wrong and should be changed. I suppose if we keep picking at it long enough, it will be changed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
782. Departmental administration - further amount required, $67,639.
['These examinations for letter\ncarriers are rather easy, and it might be difficult to require that some have to pass the examination while others do not. However, my opinion is not formed on this matter and I shall look into it further. I hope the hon. member will give me the name of this man.']
Mr. BLAIR:: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, that this matter has come up for consideration on the last day of the session when we are all in a hurry to get away. The increased grants brought in by the government are worthy of more discussion than they can receive in the last few hours of the session. The question of health is much more important than many of the other things we have been discussing

and on which we have had prolonged speeches. This is something that vitally affects the people of the country. I think every hon. member will agree that this matter should have been opened for discussion, and that it was worthy of a day or two in comparison with some of the other things we have discussed.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Censure the minister.


William Gourlay Blair: The minister promised full discussion on this matter when we should be discussing the items of the Department of National Health and Welfare. In view of the fact that the supplementary estimates were to be brought in, we agreed at that time that there should be full discussion, and even if this is the last afternoon of the session, I feel we should not hurry over this matter. Not only is it something which vitally affects the people of this country; it entails the spending of $30,000,000 a year. Even at this late date we should spend more time on this matter; if some of these other questions were worthy of consideration, this is even more important because it affects every member of parliament and all the people of this country.
In May the Prime Minister announced increased grants for national health. We welcomed the introduction of a plan that would help out national health. The Progressive Conservative party, realizing this need, has long urged a broader program for national health and for increased grants. During the time I have been a member of this house, we have repeatedly drawn the attention of the members of the house to the urgent necessity of action to overcome the deficiencies in our national health services. No later than March of this year I spoke on this matter in the house; I stated that the time had come to enunciate and put into effect a national health program for Canada. I further stated that the objective plan of this party was one which would bring health services to every Canadian citizen regardless of race, economic status or geographical position.
A year ago I drew the attention of the house to the necessity of a national stocktaking with regard to health. There is nothing new in the program that has been introduced. We welcome it and we welcome the increased grants. I believe that every member of this house, regardless of his political affiliation, approves any measure which will cut down mortality rates and relieve human suffering. Consideration of national health measures and anything that will better the condition of the people in regard to national health should be far above any political considerations.

Supply-Health and Welfare
In introducing this policy the Prime Minister stated, as reported at page 3935 of Hansard:
But what these expenditures may mean in the preservation of health, in the saving of human life, to say nothing of the lessening of human suffering and misery and not infrequently despair, is beyond calculation.
That is quite true. Mr. Chairman. But disease, death and suffering do not wait for a gradual extension of health services; nor 'have they waited until the government has taken action for the extension of health services. If this matter is so important now, it was important a week ago, a month ago, years ago. While life is within reach, it is cruelty to bar any opportunity to alleviate human suffering or reduce the danger of death.
Modern research is making tremendous progress in every major disease. Not only should we lend our efforts toward the elimination of disease and suffering, but in order to safeguard the state, we should make our people as healthy, physically and mentally, as we possibly can. There should be no geographic or economic boundaries in the opportunity for medical care. In the last hundred years we have made great progress and medical science has gradually brought disease under control. But it is unfortunate that the opportunity for treatment is not equal throughout the whole population. For that reason many people in Canada have not participated in the benefits medical science has provided over that period. In discussing this matter we must consider means by which these people may have the benefit of scientific advancement in the last century.
Today we have under consideration a limited plan; but while this plan is being discussed and put into operation, disease and suffering are still rampant throughout the country. That is going on at the very moment we are discussing these increased grants. Help is afforded by this legislation but during the time we are discussing it and during the time that will be required to bring it into effect, many preventable deaths will occur.
We are faced with two facts as far as health in Canada is concerned. These are facts which cannot be disputed, and I mentioned them at the time of the introduction of the estimates for national health and welfare. The first fact is that when our young men were called up for examination during the recent war some forty-two per cent were found unfit for service. If the proportion in that age group was as high as forty-two per cent at that time, the health conditions of other and older age groups must have been worse. The
other fact to which I direct attention is that the infant death rate in Canada is 5-02 per thousand live births, while the comparable figure in the United States is 3-8.
On these and other grounds I am going to criticize the legislation now before us. Surely further active measures are necessary to cut down our mortality rates, beyond the increased grants announced by the Prime Minister. It is admitted that hospital and treatment facilities in Canada are inadequate, and that is borne out by the very fact of these new grants. But there is another fact we should consider, though I am not going to speak at any length on this matter. In connection with the defence of our country we must remember that the picture has changed a great deal as far as warfare is concerned. Civilians are now in the front line. The atom bomb has been discovered, and we have heard stories of germicidal and bacteriological warfare. We must not blind ourselves to the fact that this is a highly important matter in reference to national defence, and I think consideration of national health matters should be joined with that of national defence. In the war of the future these two matters will be joined together, so that the health of our civilians has become of great importance.
The other important matter as far as national defence is concerned is this alarming proportion of unfitness in our young men. If we are to build a strong nation we must have healthy people. While maternal mortality rates, infant mortality rates and mortality rates from various diseases have fallen, there are still many problems that should receive our active attention. I am sorry that today, in discussing what is probably the most important matter as far as our people are concerned, we have only a bare quorum of the house. I am going to cite some of these problems, and then it will become apparent that these health grants only touch their fringe. We are discussing grants involving an expenditure of $30,000,000. That is a great deal of money; yet this is a short-sighted policy, because sickness is costing the people of Canada, in loss of time, loss of production and the cost of treatment, $1 billion a year. So we have a comparison between $30,000,000 spent on this important matter which costs the people of Canada $1 billion a year. In view of that estimated cost, surely this policy is short-sighted.
Much has been overlooked in bringing down these grants, and many matters of vital importance have not been considered. I spoke of the infantile mortality rate in Canada, so let us consider the record in that regard. One would have thought the loss of these young Canadian citizens would be a matter of primary importance, but I fail to see anything in
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these grants or in any special grants to deal with this problem. In Canada we lose approximately 15,000 infants a year. In the last twenty years-and this is an amazing figure-that is from 1926 to 1945, we lost 345,000 babies. I believe every hon. member should fix that figure in his mind, so that next year, when we consider this question of national health and welfare, every hon. member will be aware of the great loss we have suffered in this way.
An analysis of these deaths shows that many of these young Canadian citizens could have been saved if they had been given an opportunity-and again I use that word "opportunity"-of adequate pre-natal and post-natal care. That is the answer. In previous speeches in this house I have stated the statistics of the various provinces with respect to the causes of death of these infants. The fact remains that we cannot afford to lose them, and we must do something about the matter.
It is now two o'clock, Mr. Chairman.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I wonder if the committee is not now disposed to sit continuously.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We are prepared to agree to carry on if we can have some firm commitment as to the order of business. The point is that hon. members do have to leave the chamber now and then, and they would not like to miss something in which they are particularly interested.


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: We are ready to meet the wishes of hon. gentlemen opposite. We have in mind now that when the Minister of National Health and Welfare is through with his supplementaries we shall take up those of the Secretary of State, which include one item covering the civil service commission, and public printing. Then the two main estimates remaining are legislation and the Prime Minister's office. But if any hon. member is out when a particular item is called, we can proceed with something else.


Frank Exton Lennard: When do veterans affairs come in?


Alphonse Fournier: I have committed myself to wait until the end of the afternoon, because one hon. member who is interested is not here.


Howard Charles Green: Does any item remain under Justice?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes; nine items in the supplementaries.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Could it be left in this way, then, since we have found the Minister of Public Works very co-operative in these

matters. Perhaps individual members might indicate the items in which they are interested, so that the minister will see that they are not called when such members happen to be out of the chamber.


Alphonse Fournier: That would be agreeable.


William Gourlay Blair: There is also a grant for
tuberculosis and this meets with my entire approval. Tuberculosis ranks high as the cause of death in our nation, it being seventh in the list. Unfortunately it is a disease of early life and sixty per cent of deaths from tuberculosis occur in the most productive age group of from twenty to fifty years. Sixty per cent of all tuberculosis cases entering hospitals are in that age group.
Not only that, it is an expensive disease. There is something in the nature of a new cure for tuberculosis by the use of streptomycin. This is provided for patients in veterans hospitals, but the ordinary civilian must pay for treatment. I had a case some months ago, and I found that it would cost $250 to give the patient a chance to fight this disease. The cost to the taxpayers for assistance to the family of a tuberculosis patient is $2,800. The average cost in loss of wages and hospital care for a wage earner is estimated at S5.000. Those two amounts total $7,800, and this does not take into account the lost production while the patient is in the hospital.
A comparison of the deaths per 100,000 in the dominion as a whole and in the nine provinces for the years 1921 and 1945 may be of interest. These statistics show what can be
done in combating this	disease. The	figuresare:	1921	1045Dominion of Canada	
87-7	45-8Quebec 	
123-2i	71-7New Brunswick	
106-4	56-8Nova Scotia	
134	54-4Prince Edward Island ...	
143-8	45-7British Columbia 	
77-7	38-6Alberta 	
53-2	31-8Saskatchewan 	
42-5	26-9Manitoba	
68-9	42-8Ontario 	
71	25-3
Those figures clearly indicate that something has been accomplished in the fight against tuberculosis in the last twenty-five years. It is quite clear that more can be done. Given adequate grants, given help, we can fight this disease. We must remember that we are fighting one of the most expensive diseases that exist.
I come now to preventive medicine, especially as it concerns children. Sometimes we fail to recognize that many children die from

Supply-Health and Welfare
diseases which could be prevented. Annually we lose 1,000 children from preventable diseases, and no one can estimate the value of 1,000 children. The main diseases in this class are diphtheria, scarlet fever and whooping cough, and they could all be prevented if the proper inoculation was carried out. Much has been done by the provincial health departments working with their own resources to wipe out these diseases, and it will be only a question of time before they are brought fully under control, provided that we have adequate funds. The money being spent is small in comparison with that spent in connection with other diseases.
Apart from the contagious diseases, infantile paralysis still ranks high in the causes of death in spite of all efforts to counteract it. We have no answer to infantile paralysis; but we hope that in the future, given funds for research, given help, many of these children now in hospital may be saved from the crippling effects of this disease.
I come now to diseases affecting adults, and this is of particular interest to hon. members. We are all accustomed to reading in the papers of sudden deaths from coronary and cardio-vascular diseases, which simply means diseases of the heart and blood vessels. These stand high in the causes of death in this country. Comparatively young men, some of whom are making a great contribution to Canadian affairs, are suddenly wiped out by heart attacks. This is a matter that demands scientific investigation because we know little of the causes of these fatal attacks. It may be many years before we find this out and many unnecessary deaths may occur. More money should be spent to provide diagnostic clinics in a fight against these diseases.
I come now to psychiatry. Many people in Canada cannot afford to have psychiatric treatment, and even if they could afford it there are few high-class psychiatrists available. Mental diseases are on the increase. Apart from the mental hospitals in the various provinces, very little has been done to control and check the onrush of these mental diseases. Then we come up against the question of cost. The government has had some experience so far as hospitalization for these diseases is concerned. I shall refer to that later.
The cost of maintaining mental patients in our hospitals is simply enormous. It is interesting to note that in 1931 there were 31,686 patients in mental hospitals, but by 1945 the number had increased to 48,056. It must be noted that the population in our mental hospitals is growing at a faster rate than the general population of Canada. There is a
marked shortage of beds for mental cases, and this population would be much larger if the mental hospitals could take all who should be admitted for treatment. There is a shortage of 10,000 mental hospital beds in Canada today.


Douglas Charles Abbott: We estimate 24,000.


William Gourlay Blair: I am sorry the figure is so much larger. The figure I had was 10,000. Everyone does not agree as to how urgent the necessity for treatment is; but if the minister says that 24,000 beds should be provided I accept that figure, because there is no dispute so far as the minister and I are concerned as to the necessity for more beds for mental patients.
Let us look at the expenditures in Canada for mental hospitals. In 1945 the total expenditure was $22,950,837. That is the last figure I have. In the matter of costs, to this might be added 14,000,000 man-days lost in production, or an equivalent of $50,000,000. I have mentioned that we had forty-two per cent of [DOT]our young men unfit, and, Mr. Chairman, of that forty-two per cent, at least one man in ten was rejected from psychiatric causes, and many medical discharges were for the same reason. Many estimates have been made of the number of Canadians who are ill of mental disease, and the cost in loss of production and maintenance would run into a staggering figure. The grant announced by the Prime Minister, while it is a help, does not begin to cover the problem. We can attack mental sickness as we have attacked physical sickness. We need a program of mental hygiene to cut down this terrific human waste. The place for early action is to deal with mental hygiene in children.
I have spoken in this house at different times regrading cancer, and there is no occasion to repeat those figures as we are all conversant with them. Cancer occupies second place in the causes of death. From 14,000 to 15,000 people in Canada die of cancer eacih year. There are two points I wish to make. First, thousands who would otherwise die of cancer are cured by early treatment. As many as
6,000	lives out of those 15,000 oould be saved for this country each year if given an opportunity of early diagnosis and treatment. The question of opportunity is the big thing so far as saving the lives of these people is concerned.
I am going to touch shortly on venereal diseases. There is a grant for that purpose in the minister's increased estimates. The provinces are concerned with the actual treatment, and many of them are doing excellent work in the treatment of venereal disease. It is a
Supply-Health and Welfare

hard problem to deal with. But the federal government should give leadership in planning control measures with the provinces and, aided by dominion grants, should co-operate with the provinces in their activities. That has been done, but the grant of 1500,000 yearly will not compare with the figures I shall give of the number of cases. These figures are startling, but I feel I should give them here. In 1946 the number of cases of syphilis reported in Canada was 15,217, and the same statistics show 26,286 cases of gonorrhea. Those are reported cases. It would be impossible to give the complete effect of those statistics, but it is sufficient to say that they add to invalidism and institutional care. Money could be saved here.
The other remark I wish to make before I leave the subject is this. I call the attention af the minister to the fact that pre-marital tests for venereal disease should be made compulsory.
Now a word regarding sickness in industry. There again the figures are astounding. It has been estimated that sickness costs the wage earners of Canada $135 million each year, and at the same time it costs the employers 8200 million each year. We must consider the health of our industrial workers from the point of view, not only of their own welfare but of the welfare of the state in sustaining production. Many industrial firms in Canada have health programs for their employees and have found the value of health services.
Nutrition-I am not referring to the fact, Mr. Chairman, that it is now twenty minutes past two and we have not had our lunch- must receive consideration if we are to better the physical condition of our children. In that forty-two per cent of our young men who were found unfit we must give consideration to nutrition, to which in the past we have given too little attention. We have not regarded it as important as some other things, but we cannot overcome this percentage of unfitness unless a program is designed to meet this problem.
I have cited conditions in Canada regarding tuberculosis, cancer, infantile mortality, preventable diseases, venereal diseases, industrial health, and nutrition. I could speak of many other diseases and maternal deaths, if time permitted. It is essential in the consideration of treatment that there be hospital facilities and a sufficient number of beds for treatment. The shortage of hospital accommodation has been a problem for years. We require 62.000 hospital beds for immediate use. To build
62,000	hospital beds at the present time would cost half a billion dollars to provide the proper accommodation. The building of new hospitals and the extension of existing hospitals is not

progressing in view of the high cost of construction. Many hospitals were constructed as municipal schemes and had to depend for their upkeep on philanthropic donations. We have all been through that. We must have some sort of scheme wherebj' the government can, by grants, assist in building new hospitals. The government is providing this assistance.
But not only are we short of hospital beds, we are also short of nurses. It is estimated that we require from 9,000 to 10,000 additional nurses in Canada to look after our population. This nursing shortage is a handicap on the hospitals in providing care for their patients. At the present time nurses are overworked and hospitals are short staffed. N'ot only is there a shortage of hospitals beds, but the cost of sickness and hospital attention has gone beyond the means of people in the lower income tax brackets. We had an example of that the other day. When the e<3timates of the Department of Veterans Affairs were before the committee a question was asked of the minister. He said that a veteran going into a hospital for non-pensionable disability, that is, for ordinary care, had to pay at the rate of $9 a day ward rate. That would be (he rate in the hospital, but care would have to be provided in addition to that. The government, which is in the hospital business, has found that the cost is $0 a day. What of the poor middle-bracket income tax man such as ourselves? How is he to pay this amount? How is he to pay when it is necessary for him to provide a private room for his wife and special nurses besides? I have seen these cases. I am aware of that, and the trouble which exists. Can one wonder that this is just a paltry donation in comparison with the great need that exists? It is something that touches every citizen in Canada,
There may be new methods of diagnosis and treatment. We are doing much about this in our hospitals, but the cost of hospital care has increased beyond the means of the average citizen. On former occasions I have warned the government of the dangerous situation which will exist if we were to face another influenza epidemic. I hope it does not occur, but the cycle is coming around again. Some time it will occur, and with a shortage of 62,000 beds and 10,000 nurses it cannot be anything but a national calamity. The Prime Minister has said that the proposed grants represent the first stages of the development of a national health program in Canada. Grants for the health survey and the general health grant will give some measure of assistance to the provinces. The grants for tuberculosis control are far below the requirements

Supply-Health and Welfare
when we consider the statistics that I have given today. All will agree that the grant for crippled children is an excellent, one. It is worthy of praise, but fthe amount of $500,000 divided among nine provinces on a per capita basis falls far short of the mark. The grant for cancer control cannot be criticized. Any donation that has been given to cut down the ravages of this terrible disease, a disease that cuts down one in eight of our population, is praiseworthy. One could not criticize a grant for that purpose. The grant for hospitals will help, but in view of the fact that we are short 60.000 beds, it is an urgent need. The cost of hospital construction has doubled. Pre-war, one would estimate that the cost of a hospital bed was about $5,000. That was the building cost. We can now calculate the amount at over $9,000.


Paul Joseph James Martin: For beds for acute cases.


William Gourlay Blair: Yes. To give urhat the minister's grant is giving, plus the grant given by the province of Ontario, will not give the incentive and impetus to which the minister referred the other day.
Let us assume that pre-war the cost of a bed was $5,000. When the amount that the minister has given is added on we are still about $1,500 short of the mark of pre-war construction. We did not get hospital beds in those days. Although it may be hoped that this will provide the impetus or the incentive for new hospital building, it falls far short of the mark.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I point this out to the hon. member because it may be of interest to him. I am simply being flooded by requests from hospitals, from hon. members, and quite properly so, and from elsewhere. I think I have had 600 already.


William Gourlay Blair: I know. Desperation has driven them to it; but I know of municipalities Which cannot afford to give half a million dollars. That applies to small municipalities. They have to depend on gifts for their hospitals; they have to depend on municipal grants. They simply cannot undertake it. The minister has only to go to the adjoining county, where they are considering the building of a hospital, to find that out. The same problem exists all over. Where are we to get the money? In the meantime, while we are discussing this question of grants, people are dying for the want of hospital care. It is something with which we must deal. We must be realistic about it and get busy at it.
In considering these grants we come back to our friend, arthritis, which was discussed in the house on a previous occasion. I am not
going to discuss it at length. I have talked arthritis here for three years. It is true that a small start has been made at Sunnybrook hospital; but in view of the fact that there are 600,000 sufferers, of whom 125,000 are totally incapacitated, it is only a paltry approach to a subject so vast.
In a week or so I shall resume my practice. Possibly I shall get an arthritis patient who will say to me, "Doctor, what is the new program? What are you going to do for me?" What can I say? I will say, "The Minister of National Health and Welfare is running a little affair up at Sunnybrook hospital. I have nothing to offer you. I have no new ideas. I have no new equipment. There is nothing further I can do." That is the position that every general practitioner in Ontario or in any other province will have to take. We have not received any help from this grant.
I might call the minister's attention to the fact, that the organization known as the Canadian rheumatic disease people-the name is something like that-diid not receive a grant from the government.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, but they are going to under this plan.


William Gourlay Blair: I return to some of the figures. We are spending $30,000,000 a year, but sickness is costing the people of this country $1 billion a year. You cannot estimate the value of human lives. We are losing these people. We lost 345,000 babies in twenty years. We are losing these people with cancer; we are losing these people with tuberculosis, and I could go on. I say again. Mr. Chairman, that this is a paltry approach to a subject so vast. But even at that, $30,000,000 will do a lot of good, and it will be a welcome addition to the relief of human suffering. But I still say, it is insufficient when one is dealing with a question which involves human suffering and human lives. They are not to be measured in terms of dollars and cents. When the Prime Minister introduced these estimates he stated:
But of all a nation's resources, its human resources are most precious.


William Henry Golding: Order. The hon. member has exhausted his time.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Continue.


William Gourlay Blair: I am going to quote the Prime Minister's statement:
But of all a nation's resources, its human resources are most precious. The preservation in health and strength of its population is surely the best of all guarantees of a nation's power, of its progress and of its prosperity.
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He said our greatest national asset was the health and well-being of our people. In view of the great need, and the statement of the Prime Minister, we have granted $30,000,000, but the Prime Minister still suggests that the health of the people is the greatest asset we have in this country.
Let me make this clear. So far as we on this side of the house are concerned, we have had this problem before us. We have been conversant with it. We endorsed the policy of national health in Winnipeg in 1942. We also endorsed the policy in 1927 when R. B. Bennett was chosen leader, and during the government of R. B. Bennett. I am attempting to show you, sir, that we are conversant with this matter. We have been alive to the situation.
In 1937 the Right Hon. R. B. Bennett introduced the Employment and Social Security Act. That act was very much the same as this and it did attempt to deal with the problem and did give increased grants, but nothing was done from that day on. The act went through the courts to the privy council and was declared ultra vires. Part of that act was later brought in by an amendment to the constitution, and I submit that something further could have been done at that time, when we got the amendment to the constitution, because I feel that the provinces would have agreed.
I have said before that the question of health services should be above any party politics and I believe that in this house it is. I am only sorry that we shall spend but an hour or so on it in the dying day of the session, when everyone is in a hurry to get home. It is not particularly because of my profession that I am interested in the subject, but I am aware of what is happening. I have had over thirty years' practical experience in this, and I did not get it from reading books. 1 am interested in the subject, and in view of that I think more time should have been spent, on these estimates. It is unfortunate that these estimates were not brought down earlier.
So far as our party is concerned, I wish to repeat and to make clear our position in this matter, and I will quote our policy. We are in favour of this, in co-operation with the provinces, and we will bring in a national health program. We will consider the question of nutrition and better health standards, and the question of research in the control of cancer, arthritis and other diseases, and we will provide assistance for the construction of hospitals and health and recreational centres.

There is no doubt about where this party stands on this legislation and this question of grants. We approve them and will vote for them, and we will vote for them even if we do consider the amount entirely inadequate to meet the great need.


Mr. BURTON:: If a layman may congratulate a professional man, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Blair) on the excellent way in which he has presented his point of view and that of his party.
Before I go any further, I may say I will not take the length of time he did in going over some of the matters he has discussed before in this house. I will not repeat what I and other members of this group have said on previous occasions in support of a proper and thorough national health program.
May I get to the point at once and say, while we in this group welcome the announcement made by the Prime Minister so far as it goes, we are disappointed in the fact that it does not go far enough. In our opinion the least that the government should do would be to implement the promises it made to the provinces at dominion provincial conferences, with those provinces that have signed the tax agreements. There are some provinces, including the one from which I come, which have signed away their taxation rights in certain fields. So to speak, they have leased them to the dominion government, and yet the dominion government has not come across with its share of the bargain under the circumstances under which these agreements were signed. That is why I say this does not go far enough from the standpoint of the provinces which signed the agreements.
In Saskatchewan we tried to plan our health program along the lines laid down by the dominion government in its proposals to the provinces, so that if and when the federal government gets ready to fulfil its promises that plan will work in, without any undue or unnecessary upsetting of arrangements that have been made and the advancement that we have made.
I would impress upon the minister the necessity of giving favourable consideration to the making of special grants to those provinces which had the wisdom to foresee the importance of doing something before this plan was ever announced. They have made considerable expenditures and have made progress in that line; but now, as I understand, this is apt to discriminate against the provinces that have made headway in providing proper hospitalization and other care for their citizens.

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Paul Joseph James Martin: That is an important statement. May I assure my hon. friend that is not the case, nor will it be done.


Joseph William Burton: I am glad to have the assurance, but until this moment I was at a loss to know how the minister would provide that extra help toward expenses that we in Saskatchewan have incurred during the past several years. I am more than pleased that I have taken the time of the committee if only to get that assurance from the minister, and if that is carried out I wish to thank him on behalf of the people of Saskatchewan. In the province of Saskatchewan-


Paul Joseph James Martin: And the other provinces, all of which have done -wonderful work.


Joseph William Burton: In the province of Saskatchewan during the past several years-I would say the past three years-we have approximately doubled our bed space in hospitals, with the help of those interested in supplying hospital accommodation in the various centres where hospitals had already been set up, and in the more remote areas of the province. The provincial government has helped the local authorities to establish hospital services for the people, with the result that, as I have said, we have practically doubled our bed space in Saskatchewan in the short period of two or three years.
As regards hospitals, while I do not wish to be critical of other provinces, I believe that in Saskatchewan, working along the lines of the proposals submitted to dominion-provincial conferences, we have laid the foundation, the groundwork, so that we can work in with an over-all national health plan. We have instituted in Saskatchewan complete hospital services for the residents of that province.
I have here a card that entitles me to admittance into a hospital on the recommendation of my physician or of any recognized physician in the province of Saskatchewan. If he prescribes hospital care for me I can go into any hospital in that province for proper treatment. I may add that if in the opinion of the doctor, or of any specialists whom he may consult, it is necessary for me to go outside the province of Saskatchewan, this card will enable me to do so. The card cost me a total of $5-


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: For the year.


Joseph William Burton: Five dollars for the year, the maximum being $30 for a family, regardless of the number. Whether eight, ten or twelve members, the maximum is $30 in any case. That is something we have done in Saskatchewan to give the residents of that
province an opportunity to be properly taken care of whenever their physicians recommend hospital treatment for them. In doing that we found it necessary to provide that extra hospital space to which I have referred.
May I say with all frankness there are some people who will rise to their feet in this house and say they want to have a national health program, but who in their own provinces have failed to go as far as we have gone in the province of Saskatchewan. While that is their own business, what I object to is the procedure when they' or their friends go into the province of Saskatchewan, try to put as many stumbling blocks as they possibly can in our way in carrying out this plan in a proper manner, and endeavour to belittle it.
I say no province in the Dominion of Canada has made as much headway under as many adverse criticisms as has Saskatchewan in this connection. We are far from being satisfied yet, because we still think we have a long way to go. But we would have been able to go farther if the dominion government had lived up to the agreement as it was originally proposed, at least with those of us who signed the tax agreements.
In addition to that, I may say that every old age pensioner in Saskatchewan, whenever his or her doctor recommends hospital care, not only gets hospital care, but gets doctor's care and any other attention which he or she may need in that line. Old age pensioners, blind pensioners, plus those on mothers' allowance and their dependents are given complete health services free in the province of Saskatchewan.
In addition to that, we have free treatment for cancer. In that connection I should like to say that for quite a number of years in the past, even under the previous administration, some attempt was made to give special attention to cancer cases, and considerable progress was made. The present government went a step further and made the necessary provision whereby all cancer cases are treated free.
Just a few weeks ago at the city of Regina, a ceremony was held at the opening of a wing of the Grey Nuns hospital in that city, the construction of which had been made possible by the co-operation of the provincial government and with the understanding that part of the wing is to be entirely devoted for a number of years to cancer treatment and work. The former minister of health, who is now lieutenant governor of Saskatchewan, along with the present minister of health, and premier of the province, and members of the various political parties were present at the opening of that hospital which was a forward step by people who had sunk their party differences and rejoiced that they were able to make that
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advancement with regard to the cause of health. Just from memory I would recall the words that the Premier of Saskatchewan used. He said that through hard work and sacrifices we had all realized the ambition for which we were working in the cause of health. I would commend those words to those who are prone to rise in the house and ask for an overall national health program. In fact, I would say, let them in some of these respects follow the example set by the province of Saskatchewan.
In my final word, may I appeal to the minister that as soon as possible-and the sooner 'the better-we get into a proper working arrangement with the provinces that have signed these agreements. If that is done I can assure him that the health program in those provinces will go on at a speed with which he will be well satisfied.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I wish to add a brief word to what my colleague has already said. I think one thing the members of this house agree upon is that, while in principle we are certainly in support of the sum being voted, it is totally inadequate when compared with the field that is mentioned as national health. This sum of $30,000,000 in a field of that size is, of course, quite inadequate.
I wish to refer directly to figures which appear in the proposals of the government of Canada to the provinces, in August, 1945. For example, under the heading of "initial benefits under health insurance," the total quoted is, roughly speaking, $70,000,000. If you add to that for other benefits under health insurance the figure of $78,000,000, you have already $148 million, which is the share of the dominion government alone. Then $13,000,000 more must be added under planning, organization and health grants, which together with another $13,000,000 estimated hospital assistance, would work out to about $175 million. In other words, roughly speaking. $175 million was proposed as the share of the dominion government to the provinces in the event that they entered into the tax agreements which were mentioned a while ago. The sum of $30,000,000 works out to roughly 18 per cent of that amount. In other words, the present proposal is about 18 per cent effective, having regard to the over-all picture, even so far as the federal government was prepared to go at that time. The minister may have other figures to quote which may alter that figure slightly, but I think I am fairly close to the mark.
I also wish to mention another inadequacy in the present appropriation and that is the conditions which are attached to it. For

example, we find in the statement of the Prime Minister on May 14 of this year the following proviso, as reported at page 3933 of Hansard:
In order to qualify for the grants, the provinces will of course be required to maintain at least their present level of expenditures in this field. This same safeguard will he attached to all the other grants it is proposed to make.
And farther on in the statement the same proviso is made in connection with hospital assistance, in these words as reported at page 3934 of Hansard.
One condition' which it is proposed to attach to hospital construction grants is that the province shall match the dominion contribution or better it, and that the dominion contribution shall not in any case exceed one-third of the total cost per bed in any project.
I think that proviso may have the effect of vitiating all the effectiveness there is in this provision in many respects, because in certain provinces in this dominion, in which assistance in this form is needed most, we may find they will get it least, because the provincial government in that case-and in some cases where the municipalities enter into it-may not be able to match dollar for dollar as the present proviso would ask them to do. We also find that in some provinces, and I mention in particular any one of the three prairie provinces, a complete crop failure in any one year, or a similar disaster, could prevent that province from carrying out its share of the plan. In that way they would lose the benefits to which otherwise they would be entitled. In view of the relatively small amount involved, I think the federal government should at least have made it a flat grant, regardless of what the province or municipality concerned is able to do financially.
I want also to commend the government on having provided assistance in the matter of mental health care. Some time ago there was on this subject a series of articles, which I think most hon. members read, in Liberty magazine. I have no doubt they were correct, since they have not been challenged by anyone; and conditions in our mental hospitals across Canada as described in those articles were deplorable. I am not proud of the fact that the mental hospital at Brandon, Manitoba, was given the doubtful distinction of being called the second worst in Canada.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The articles were not basically incorrect.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Only yesterday I received a twelve-page letter from one of the patients at the Brandon mental hospital. I am not going to quote him as an authority, of course,

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nor will I repeat his extravagant language. Suffice it to say that he doubted the mental capacity of those who keep him confined there, and suggested that if the minister and his colleagues were to trade places with him and those confined with him, conditions in this country might be improved.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Sometimes I think he is right.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Another matter of which I am greatly in favour is the grant being made for assistance to crippled children. I regret, however, that it is confined to crippled children, because in most provinces of Canada- and I can speak of Manitoba in particular- with the exception of unorganized territory there is no assistance whatever from the provincial treasury for crippled adults. That matter is left entirely to the municipalities concerned, and some of our rural municipalities are not in a financial position which would permit them to look after these cases as they should be looked after. I understand that in Saskatchewan the provincial government now pays fifty per cent of the cost of such assistance to crippled persons, but in Manitoba and some other provinces the municipalities are burdened with the whole expenditure.
The last point I wish to mention is the fact that the proviso in connection with hospital grants in particular will work adversely in many rural areas of my province. I know many municipalities and towns in Manitoba have been trying to construct hospitals, and have expected financial assistance from this government. If the grant for that purpose is to be conditional upon an equal grant by the provincial government, and if the province does not see fit to come through with its share, I am afraid another great obstacle will be placed in the path of those municipalities.
In conclusion, I merely wish to add that, as far as I am concerned, I am happy to support this appropriation, but certainly I hope that the next time we speak about national health in this house we shall be able to talk in terms of a little more than $30,000,000 for the whole population of Canada.


Paul Joseph James Martin: In a matter of such great importance, Mr. Chairman, as Minister of National Health and Welfare I think there are one or two things I should say at this time. I cannot cover everything that has been said in this debate, nor do I intend to attempt to do so, but I do want to outline a few points which I think are of great importance in relation to the program which is being discussed today for the first time.
This program is predicated, as properly and legally it must be, upon co-operation with the provinces. I am happy to say that about three weeks ago I called a conference of all the provincial departments of health, to which all governments sent representatives. I can only say that a spirit of the utmost co-operation prevailed with respect to relations between the federal and provincial governments represented at that conference in the matter of this health program. A second point I should like to make with respect to that meeting is that it was called before the moneys were appropriated for the national health program. I thought the house would sanction that move, so that we would be able to launch this program with a minimum of delay. I am now able to say that within the next three weeks we shall be having ex parte meetings. Next week I shall be meeting with two governments independently, and that procedure will be continued for the next ensuing period, so that this program may be put into operation as quickly as possible.
Let no one minimize the importance of this program; for whatever one may say, it is a program of the greatest significance. My remarks now are made in the knowledge that hon. members are prepared to deal with the steps to be taken by parliament to ease the burden of human suffering caused by disease, and all in this house act in this matter of national health in a spirit of non-political interest. Of that I have no doubt; but this program is so significant in its importance that I would be remiss in my duty if I did not tell the committee exactly what it means in terms of future commitments.
Under our constitution health is a matter for the provinces, and many provinces are very properly concerned about their jurisdictional rights in the matter. Anyone holding the post I hold must keep that concern constantly in mind. This program means that on the federal level, a level not responsible under the constitution for the health of the nation, from now on in one year we shall spend on national health more than we have spent in the past twenty-seven years. That is extremely significant. It means also that in a period of ten years we as a federal government will spend $300,000,000 to assist the provinces in the field of national health.
Let no one say that I think that is fully adequate, or that I am trying to justify what has not been done in the past. I am simply indicating the importance of this new health program. It is a far-reaching program, and perhaps its significance will be better appreciated when we compare our proposals with the federal grant system recently inaugurated
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in the United States. As hon. members know, that country has the same constitutional relationship and problems that we have in Canada. The administration of health belongs to the individual states, just as in our country health is a matter for the provinces. The comparison I am about to make will clearly indicate, I think, the importance and consequences of the national health program announced by the Prime Minister. Both the United States and the Canadian programs contain many features in common; for example, grants for general public health services, grants for venereal disease and tuberculosis control, grants for cancer-, mental health and hospital construction. The United States grant for general public health services for the current fiscal year amounts to ten cents per capita on the basis of the 1947 population. The federal grant to our provinces under the program now before us commences at a rate of thirty-five cents per capita on the basis of the 1947 population and rises to a level of fifty cents per capita within a four-year period.
Mr. BURTON; Would the minister be able to say how- many tax fields the states have surrendered to the federal authority?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am not discussing this on that basis at all; I am trying to outline the extent of our program. In the field of tuberculosis control the United States grant amounts to five cents per capita, based on the 1947 figures. The Canadian grant amounts to twenty-four cents per capita on the basis of the 1947 population and rises to thirty-two cents per capita as the program develops.
The figures with regard to mental health are even more impressive. The United States grants amount to two cents per capita on the basis of the 1947 population figures. The Canadian grant begins at thirty-two cents per capita on the basis of the 1947 population figures and rises to fifty-six cents per capita as the program develops.
The United States cancer grant amounts to two cents per capita on the basis of the 1947 population figures. The Canadian grant proposed in these estimates amounts to twenty-seven cents per capita on the basis of the 1947 population figures.
Finally, with regard to hospital construction, the United States annual appropriation amounts to fifty-two cents per capita, and the Canadian appropriation amounts to $1.04 per capita on the basis of the 1947 population figures.
Only with regard to the two smallest grants -namely, for venereal disease control and for crippled children-are the United States per capita allocations slightly higher than those
bMr. Martin.]
proposed in the government's program. The United States venereal disease control grant amounts to six cents per capita, and the grant proposed in this present program amounts to four cents per capita. The crippled children's grant in the United States amounts to five cents per capita, compared with four cents per capita in the Canadian program.
In total, the grants under the United States program for all purposes amount to eighty-two cents per capita of the population. Under the Canadian program the grants, taken altogether, are almost three times as great at the beginning, amounting to $2.32 per capita, and rise, over a period of years, to a maximum of $2.82 per capita of the population.
I mention these figures, because I feel that they will give in brief compass a clearer picture than might otherwise be possible of the comparative magnitude of this program taken in relation to what departmental undertakings in previous years have been, and also in relation to comparative undertakings by the federal government in the United States of America.
I cannot at the moment cover everything that has been mentioned today. I always listen with great interest to the speeches of the hon. member for Lanark because of their source, but I think he will be the first to admit that many of the matters which he discussed do not come directly within the sphere of federal jurisdiction. But with regard to the kind of spirit which he sought to impose on us, namely, that we should not have any limitation in our objectives, I fully agree. We cannot stop our work in trying to improve conditions that affect the health of the people of this country.
What we are doing about arthritis is not by any means, as the hon. member well knows, confined to Sunnybrook hospital. We are making arrangements with the provinces to give them particular health grants in order that there may be set up clinics throughout their jurisdictions on the basis of the Lord Horder treatment centres for arthritis and rheumatism in Great Britain.
At long last we have begun to do something in the field of arthritis, but it will take a relatively long time. These things cannot be done overnight. But finally we are doing something on a co-ordinated scale in an effort to bring about some improvement in this disease, which causes at least severe suffering to about 100,000 of our fellow citizens.
If the provinces are able to use their share of the $3,500,000 grant for cancer I do not think there is any reason why we should not have a complete system of free treatment for

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cancer for those financially unable to pay for treatment in every province in this country. That is the objective about which there will be more said later after we have had further meetings with the provinces.
The program we are launching today is one of great importance to the people of Canada. We are approaching our role in a spirit of collaboration with those jurisdictions in our country that have direct legal responsibility in the field of health. It is only proper that I should say I have had from the provinces, all of them, the greatest co-operation in the inauguration of a program which I know the whole committee will agree means so much to our people.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: I had not intended to say anything, but perhaps I might be permitted to say just a word at this time. I know every hon. member is glad to see something being done in this field. The minister made a comparison between the United States and Canada which reflects credit on Canada, but I think we should bear in mind that the states of the union have not surrendered their taxing powers to the central authority. I think that makes quite a difference in that regard.
There is another way to compare this $30,000,000 we are to spend. It is less than we spent in two days in 1944 on war. When one makes that comparison I think it indicates some justification for what I said when the Prime Minister came before the house with this program, that it was pitifully small. Then the minister said we are to spend as much this year as we spent in the previous twenty-seven years. I am glad to know that, but that does not reflect any credit upon the government which was in power during most of those twenty-seven years. We must bear in mind that in 1919 the program of the Liberal party, which was very attractive to many people, foreshadowed this health program, but it is only after twenty-nine years that some steps are taken to carry it out.
But I want to say that we are glad it is being done. I am glad to hear the minister say this will not involve discrimination against those provinces which have tried to build up high standards in this line. I am not singling out my own province, although it has gone farther than any other, but I would point out that the western provinces have gone a long way in promoting health programs for their people. It would be grossly unfair if, after having built up a high standard, they were told that, unless they could go farther and beyond that standard, or even maintain a standard which they had put into effect believing that agreements with the provinces with regard to health would be consummated, they would be penalized.
I am glad to know that something is to be done in connection with mental health. Many of us have read, during the last few years, articles dealing with conditions in our mental hospitals, and we know they are bad. The minister of health of my own province, who happens to be the premier, has taken a great interest in this particular disease, because it was in the field of mental hygiene that he obtained his Master of Arts degree some years ago. A great deal has been done there to segregate the various types of persons suffering from mental illness.
I am glad that something is being done with regard to arthritis, but there are other diseases in connection with which I should like to see the government make some grants. I am thinking particularly of sclerosis.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is covered.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: That disease was hardly known a few years ago, but I have many personal friends who are suffering from it today.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We are taking a great interest in that.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: I am glad to know
that from the minister. May I say, on behalf of the party which I have the honour to lead in this house, that anything the government does to promote the health and welfare of the Canadian people will be supported to the fullest possible extent. We shall be read}' to give all credit to the government that does it, whether it is ourselves or some other government.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I have a great interest in this matter, and I know that national health is of great interest to my constituents. My only criticism is that these grants are not larger. I support what has been said by those hon. members who have spoken previously, and I must say I enjoyed very much indeed the speech of the hon. member for Lanark. He never speaks on this subject without making a definite contribution to the knowledge of the members of this house.
I also support the criticisms offered by the hon. member for Dauphin, which I shall not repeat because of lack of time, but I think he made several pointed criticisms with regard to this plan.
I am going to support this vote, because I believe it is a real beginning in the development of a national health plan which the people of this country want. My corres-
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pondence indicates that there are two subjects which are always treated on a nonpartisan basis by the rank and file in all political parties, and those are veterans affairs and national health problems. Great interest was taken in this plan when it was announced in the house by the Prime Minister, and from the correspondence I 'have I judge that the rank and file of all political parties are seeking the same objectives in this problem of national health.
Though the amount provided is less than I had hoped, I am glad that the government has made a start in this direction; and I am certain of this, that, because of the interest of the people of Canada in national health problems and because of the demand for a satisfactory solution of those problems, this is only the beginning of a rapid development in a national health program for this country. I believe that the minister has his heart and soul in this work, and I can assure him that he will without question have the support of the great majority of the Canadian people in what he undertakes in this direction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch -
General health grants:
797. To provide for the following grants to the provinces, under terms and conditions to be approved by the governor in council: health survey grant to assist the provinces in surveying present health services and facilities, including hospitals, and in studying ways and means of improving and extending the same; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $5,000 to each province an'd the balance according to population but the total payment available to any province in no case to be less than $15,000, $625,000.
Hospital construction grant to assist the provinces in the provision of adequate accommodation for hospital and health services; to be distributed on the basis of $1,000 per bed for active treatment beds, $1,500 per bed for chronic or convalescent beds, or in the case of other health facilities on an equivalent basis; provinces to match or exceed dominion contribution which shall in no case exceed one-third of total cost. $13,000,000.
General public health grant to assist the provinces in strengthening general public health services; to be distributed on the basis of 35 cents per capita of population, to provinces which maintain at least their present standard and extent of service in this field, $4,395,000.
Tuberculosis control grant to assist the provinces in an accelerated and intensified effort toward the eradication of tuberculosis and to extend progressively the provision of free treatment: to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $25,000 to each province and the balance to be divided 50 per cent on' the basis of population and 50 per cent on the basis of the average number of deaths from tuberculosis in each province over the previous five years, $3,000,000.

Mental health grant to assist the provinces in the prevention of mental illness and in extending progressively the provision of free treatment; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $26,000 to each province and the balanoe according to population, $4,000,000.
Venereal disease control grant to assist the provinces in extending and intensifying their present efforts toward the control of venereal disease; to be distributed according to population, $275,000.
Crippled children grant to assist the provinces in an intensive program for the prevention and correction of crippling conditions in children, rehabilitation and training; to be distributed on the basis of a flat imount of $4,000 to each province and the balance according to population, $500,000.
Professional training grant to assist the provinces in the training of personnel for public health and hospital staffs; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $4,000 to each province and the balance according to population, $500,000.
Public health research grant to assist the provinces in stimulating and developing public health research. $100,000.
Cancer control grant to assist the provinces in programs for the control of cancer; to be distributed according to population, with any such programs for cancer control to be approved and the cost thereof to be divided equally between the dominion and the province concerned, $3,500,000.
['I have a great interest in this matter, and I know that national health is of great interest to my constituents. My only criticism is that these grants are not larger. I support what has been said by those hon. members who have spoken previously, and I must say I enjoyed very much indeed the speech of the hon. member for Lanark. He never speaks on this subject without making a definite contribution to the knowledge of the members of this house.\nI also support the criticisms offered by the hon. member for Dauphin, which I shall not repeat because of lack of time, but I think he made several pointed criticisms with regard to this plan.\nI am going to support this vote, because I believe it is a real beginning in the development of a national health plan which the people of this country want. My corres-\nSupply-Health and Welfare', "pondence indicates that there are two subjects which are always treated on a nonpartisan basis by the rank and file in all political parties, and those are veterans affairs and national health problems. Great interest was taken in this plan when it was announced in the house by the Prime Minister, and from the correspondence I 'have I judge that the rank and file of all political parties are seeking the same objectives in this problem of national health.\nThough the amount provided is less than I had hoped, I am glad that the government has made a start in this direction; and I am certain of this, that, because of the interest of the people of Canada in national health problems and because of the demand for a satisfactory solution of those problems, this is only the beginning of a rapid development in a national health program for this country. I believe that the minister has his heart and soul in this work, and I can assure him that he will without question have the support of the great majority of the Canadian people in what he undertakes in this direction."]
Charles Elwood Stephenson: I am sure that
municipalities all over Canada welcomed the announcement that grants were to be made by the federal government for hospital construction. Several municipalities and hospitals throughout the country are asking what is necessary for them to do to get assistance in the construction and extensions contemplated. I have a letter here which illustrates the point. It is from the secretary of the Bowmaoville hospital, which is planning to erect a new hospital, and says:
As you no doubt remember, we are planning on the erection of a new memorial hospital here, and we have secured cash and promises of a little over $200,500 towards this end.
Can you tell us just where we stand with regard to the promised federal aid towards projects of this kind?
Can the minister state specifically how a hospital or municipality should proceed to get this assistance?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I understand that the general intention is that t.he grant will be available for the construction of new hospitals and for the payment of hospitals now in the course of construction. I know a line must be drawn somewhere, and I can imagine the difficulties which are met in drawing that line. There are many municipalities which have vastly increased their debt because no such grant was available to them before. Many have just finished the construction of

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a new hospital or of a new wing. My suggestion would be that within the general limits of the program here laid down the federal government should allow a certain discretion to the province, which, I take it, will have the detailed administration of this program, so that a part of the grant which the province receives may be applied to repay a municipality for debts incurred through the recent construction of a hospital. For example, a province has already contributed something and the municipality has made a contribution toward the construction of a new hospital and has incurred debt to cover the remainder of the construction costs. Where conditions such as these exist, I suggest that the province be allowed discretion to apply a portion of these funds to relieve 'the municipality which had incurred debt for recent hospital construction.


Mr. WRIGHT:: If a province has reached the maximum number of hospital beds required to give complete hospital service to its population, will it be allowed to use this hospital grant to provide other health services in the province, or must the grant be used only for hospital construction?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I anticipated that there would be wide interest in this hospital construction program, because of the great number of questions put to me privately by various members and also by the correspondence which is coming in, and which I am at the moment simply unable to meet. Therefore, to inform hon. members about the problem and as to what steps should be taken, I propose to make a statement which I hope will be of assistance to them and to the country generally.
The purpose behind this hospital construction program is not to meet situations of the past, but to try to bring about a reduction in the existing hospital bed shortage in this country which, on the basis of Doctor Agnew's report, we estimate to be between
69,000	and 65,000. The program is not to provide relief as such to municipalities or to provincial governments. It is designed for one purpose, and that is to encourage the building of new hospital beds in Canada to take care of our growing needs and demands.
The hospital construction grant program is designed to remove the deficit in hospital accommodation that exists in Canada. At the same time, since adequate hospital facilities are a prime prerequisite for health insurance, and especially for hospital insurance, it will provide a sound basis for a health insurance program.
The grants will place emphasis on proper geographic distribution and proper allocation by type of hospital, thereby correcting to a considerable extent any maldistribution of hospital facilities. Further, by providing a more satisfactory distribution of these facilities, it is hoped that the program will contribute to better distribution of doctors and health personnel.
The demand for hospital accommodation has been rising steadily for many years. The factors which have contributed to this rise in the demand for hospital care include the trend toward obstetrical care in hospital, normal population growth, the great advance in coverage by hospital insurance plans, a greater appreciation of medical services including hospital treatment, and the financial ability of a larger sector of the population to pay for hospital services. While the demand for hospital care has been steadily growing, the increase in the supply of new facilities has been retarded. Since 1940 and 1941 the situation has become acute. During the earlier years of the war a shortage of materials and skilled labour stopped practically all hospital construction except that already under way. In the latter years of the war and the years immediately following, the tremendously increased costs of construction, plus the continued shortage of materials and labour proved discouraging to building committees.
The shortage of hospitals is particularly acute with respect to rural areas. I am saying this because the municipalities are becoming large cities, and I want them, to understand that we are going to deal with the provincial governments. That is the exact constitutional position. What we shall 'have in mind is a proper distribution of hospitals, not simply to give assistance because someone asks for it, but because, in accordance with plans jointly conceived by the provinces and ourselves, it is thought that a particular geographical section or area requires special treatment; consequently we intend to lay emphasis on the shortage of beds in rural areas.


Howard Charles Green: May I aslk a question? Who is to make the decision about where the help is to be given? Is the dominion taking that responsibility?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Oh, no.


Howard Charles Green: Will the provinces assume that responsibility?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The provinces will come to us with their plans, and our officers and their officers will sit across the table, and in the
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light of their common knowledge arrive at an agreement. Responsibility will not be taken initially by us.	_
It is important to keep in tnind that any sound plan of hospital construction for the next few years should take into account the various kinds of beds required, and because of the current taking up of space by chronic patients we have given a $500 difference in grant for chronic cases as opposed to acute
cases.	.
With regard to the problem mentioned by the hon. member for Kamloops I want to say this, and this is subject to change. As I said, we have had a conference with the provinces and we did discuss the starting date. It is about the starting date that I think I should say something, because it has interest to so many members. The provinces are now considering what their attitude shall be with regard to this particular proposal and others. Until we have final agreement, it is not possible to say exactly what the situation will be. Tentatively we had agreed on the starting date as of April 1 of this year. 1 may say tha' consideration is now being given to putting that date back to January 1. That is a matter that still has to be worked out with the provinces. Therefore, subject to unforeseen contingencies, for the purposes of the hospital construction grant the tentative date will be either April 1, 1948, or January 1, 1948. All hospital construction projects, the work on which was commenced on or after either one of these dates, depending on which one is settled on, will be eligible for assistance on a matching basis with the provinces. In the selection of this date, it must be emphasized that this grant program has been designed to encourage new construction which is urgently needed; therefore there is no justification for including hospital construction that has been completed prior to the starting date to be agreed upon. It is felt that federal funds can be most effectively spent in seeking the erection of new construction units.
However, in introducing this program it was important that current hospital construction should receive some assistance under this scheme. Many hospitals which are under construction at the present time have, because of rapidly rising costs, under-estimated their financial needs and require further assistance to complete their building projects. Accordingly, with respect to hospitals still under construction on April 1, 1948, partial grants will be made available on a pro rata basis representing that portion of the total construction costs of the given project which remains to be completed as of the starting date which, as I say, has yet to be finally 
decided on. This balance will be determined on the basis of an architect's certificate, certified by the province, showing the amount of construction still remaining to be completed. The federal contribution will bear the same relation to the sum of $1,000 per active treatment bed or $1,500 per chronic or convalescent bed as the portion of construction still to be completed bears relation to the total cost of construction.


Percy Ellis Wright: I appreciate the minister's statement, but he did not answer my question as to whether any province which has reached the maximum number of beds required for the hospitalization of its people will be able to use the grant for some other health purpose.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No; this grant is intended simply to encourage the building of new beds.


Percy Ellis Wright: Then the minister's^ statement that it does not include discrimination is hardly correct, because there are provinces which have, or which will reach, they hope, at least the maximum number of hospital beds within the next two or three years. If that number is reached, then they are not entitled to this hospitalization grant. They reached that maximum number of hospital beds required only through special efforts either on their own behalf or on behalf of the municipalities in those provinces. I certainly think they should be allowed to use these grants for other health facilities which they may need within the province.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I may say to my hon. friend there is no province in that position.


Edmund Davie Fulton: If I may say so, the minister's statement was a sincerely logical one. The deadline had to be set somewhere. Certainly the purpose of it was to provide new accommodation. I am not going to provoke a debate,, because we would probably arrive at an impasse in the matter; but I just bring this matter to his attention. If the deadline of January or April is insisted on and no discretion is left it means that the municipalities which have been progressive and courageous in attempting to meet their hospital requirements-I am not speaking only of the cities, but of larger towns which are centres of large country areas-will be penalized in comparison with those which have, for various reasons, sat back and not yet started their construction. Since there is some uncertainty, or some lack of finality, with regard to fixing the deadline, may I request the minister most urgently, while he is considering that point, to consider also the giving of a degree of discretion to the provinces where the construction meets the

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other requirements outlined in the terms of this grant. I ask him to give some discretion to the provinces to make a portion of the beds available to municipalities in the position which I have mentioned. In other words, it may so happen that they have finished their construction thirty days before the deadline set, because they were progressive and courageous, and went about the job on their own hook. They would be penalized. I am sure the minister will thoroughly sympathize with that position.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: As I understand it, the grant will be made by the dominion to the provinces as a lump sum. A municipality desiring assistance will have to make application to the provincial government. The federal government does not intend to allocate any moneys to any particular hospitals. That will be decided by the province. Is that right? In other words, where a particular municipality is asking for some assistance for a particular hospital-


Paul Joseph James Martin: They should write to the provincial government.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: -the minister's position is that they should write to the provincial government?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: What is the average cost per bed in Canada for the construction of hospital beds?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It varies. In acute cases it goes down as low as $6,000 and up as high as $10,000. In chronic cases it varies; it goes down to $5,000 and up to $8,000.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister not struck an average for the whole of Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I cannot. It depends on the locality. I do not think I can do any better than that. An average would not help us very much.


Howard Charles Green: That is not the point. I am asking whether the minister has an average figure.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No. I said that in some cases it was as high as $10,000 and in others as low as $6,000 in acute cases, with variations in between. There are hospitals constructed as low as $3,000 per bed. It depends upon the type of structure, the area and so on. We are building a hospital at James bay, an Indian hospital, that will cost us a great deal of money. The increased cost there will be due to additional transportation problems, lack of 5849-392
labour and so on. Much depends on such circumstances. The cost in my hon. friend's city is high.


Howard Charles Green: WTiy is this limitation imposed, that the dominion will in any event not pay more than one-third of the total cost?


Paul Joseph James Martin: What we are doing is to give $13 million for hospital construction. That is a new departure. In the 1945 proposals the offer was to provide loans at low-interest rates; but we felt, in reconsidering the problem at this time, that the inducement of a grant would have the effect of accelerating hospital construction much more than if we lent money. Obviously you must have a stopping point. The grant of $1,000 for acute and $1,500 for chronic cases is by no means an ungenerous one. In fact, the provinces, I can say from the conferences we have had, are grateful indeed for this unique assistance.


Howard Charles Green: The third heading under this item is, "general public health grant to assist the provinces". There are two questions in that regard. At the time the original announcement was made it was stated that the grant was to be increased from thirty-five cents per capita to fifty cents per capita eventually, according to the population of the provinces. There is no mention of such an.increase in this amount.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There is.


Howard Charles Green: Is that still the arrangement?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Five cents each year until the fifty cents is reached.


Howard Charles Green: The minister said a few moments ago that it was under this item that help would be given in the field of arthritis.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Can he give a more detailed explanation as to how that help is to be given, the nature of it?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Before these grants were announced, we had had over a period of years, particularly during the last two or three years, opportunity for general discussion with all the provinces through the dominion council of health. I took advantage, during the last few months, of carrying on informal consultations with representatives of the Canadian medical association, through a special committee that had been set up to collaborate with the Department of National Health and Welfare in the discussion of these matters, so that we might get the medical practitioner's point of view. This new national health plan is based on the results of these talks with unofficial and official groups. The purposes behind the
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public health grant are, first, among others, the creation of additional county or district health units and the expansion of existing health units through added staff and facilities; secondly, the extension and development of the child and maternal hygiene program; thirdly, the development of blindness-prevention and control programs; and fourthly, the development and extension of programs in the field of health education, control of poliomyelitis, arthritis and other diseases not specifically covered by the health grants.
With regard to arthritis, we encouraged the setting up, as a result of a conference held in Ottawa, of the Canadian arthritis and rheumatism society, a national body under the presidency of Doctor Wallace Graham, who is perhaps the leading rheumatologist in the country and a former collaborator of Lord Horder. That body will be given assistance through arrangements already agreed upon with the provinces, and through them and through ourselves, to further desirable remedial arthritis schemes. It is a long-term undertaking.
One of the difficulties will be to have some of this money completely utilized in the current year. Some of the1 provinces may find it difficult to use the full amounts of money, but our aim is to have the money fully utilized, though wisely expended.


Howard Charles Green: There are special grants for tuberculosis control, mental health, venereal disease control, the1 crippled children's grant and the cancer control grant. Why is there not one for arthritis?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Because it was thought that there was not sufficient development at the moment in that field and the money could not be wisely utilized at once. The medical profession and the provinces themselves preferred to have it done that way, to have it under the general public health grant.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister said this money might not all be spent this year because of the inability of the provinces to match grants.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, not to match grants. It is all very well to propose that we should spend money in trying to cope with this disease or that, but it is not as easy as all that, unless you want to spend the money unwisely.
I can tell my hon. friend, as regards the province from which he comes, that one eminent gentleman from that very province at the recent conference told us that, not only was it perhaps in some cases difficult, but that we ought to be quite careful about spending money simply for the sake of spending it.

We have to proceed according to plan. I had some experience in the disposition of some of the cancer grants under the cancer institute, and I know the sort of applications that were put in for grants and the way they were vetoed. Some applications could not possibly, in their very nature, have proved of value in the control of cancer. That is what I mean. We have to make sure that projects are well conceived. If they are they will be assisted.


Percy Ellis Wright: In the matter of cancer research, is consideration being given to having research in one central place?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is not thought desirable, because several individuals might be engaged on some particular phase of cancer research in many different parts of the country, or in different parts of the world for that matter. The very nature of research lends itself to duplication, and more than duplication, to repetition in the expectation that, as a result of wide and extensive research in a given field a solution may more readily be found. It is not thought that centralization of research is a guarantee of effective results.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
Miscellaneous grants-
798. Grant to Canadian Paraplegic Association, $15,000.
['That is not thought desirable, because several individuals might be engaged on some particular phase of cancer research in many different parts of the country, or in different parts of the world for that matter. The very nature of research lends itself to duplication, and more than duplication, to repetition in the expectation that, as a result of wide and extensive research in a given field a solution may more readily be found. It is not thought that centralization of research is a guarantee of effective results.']
Edmund Davie Fulton: I appreciate the inclusion of this grant in the supplementaries. I mentioned this two years ago when the association first sent its president down.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A very estimable gentleman.
Mr- FULTON: Yes, Mr. John Counsel is an estimable gentleman and he has produced extraordinarily fine results. Although it was a veterans' organization and the benefits were confined to veterans, it is now being extended to civilians. It is on that basis that this grant is made, I presume. The minister will correct me.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am glad to find that it is.
I thank the government, and I think the association deserves the highest commendation for the work it has done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil service commission-
691h Salaries and contingencies of the commission-further amount required, $29,180.
['I am glad to find that it is.\nI thank the government, and I think the association deserves the highest commendation for the work it has done.']
Howard Charles Green: There is one point I should like to bring up under this item. Who is the minister?

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Paul Joseph James Martin: I am responsible at the moment. I hope you will not test my knowledge too accurately. This is mostly for salaries.


Stanley Howard Knowles: And contingencies. You are an expert on contingencies.


Howard Charles Green: I think I will wait until later.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
LEGISLATION House of Commons-
7SB. General administration-estimates of the clerk-further amount required, $108,000.
['I think I will wait until later.']
Edmund Davie Fulton: On this general administration item I should like to refer briefly to the changes which were recently made in the categories of those employed in the House of Commons. The Secretary of State introduced a motion providing for a number of changes in the category of employment from temporary to permanent, and also, I believe, a separate order in council was issued providing for a number of appointments to those permanent positions. At that time I made an inquiry of His Honour the Speaker as to the number of employees of the House of Commons generally, and bow many were permanent, how many were temporary continuous and how many were temporary sessional; and of those, how many served overseas, how many served in Canada and how many saw no service in either war. Then I asked, with respect to the change from temporary to permanent category, the same questions: how many served overseas, how many served in Canada only and how many did mot serve in either war?
It is chiefly with respect to the employment of veterans and the granting of the veterans preference that I want to make some observations this afternoon. May I take one answer as typical. Question 6 was as follows:
Of the positions in the House of Commons staff whose category was changed from temporary to permanent employment by resolution approved by the house on May 3, how many are now filled by those who
(a)	saw service overseas?
(b)	saw service in Canada?
(c)	saw no service?
The answer was:
Of the 135 males on the temporary continuous staff shown in 2 (b), approximately 107 are occupying positions shown as permanent on the new establishment; of this 107, 43 served overseas; 5 served in Canada; 59 had no service in either war.
This means that forty-eight served in Canada or overseas and fifty-nine had no service in either war. Those are the new positions. That means that over half the appointments to the permanent positions are made from those who 5849-392J
had no war service. This is an extremely complicated matter, Mr. Chairman. I have been studying this reply to my question for some time, and I do not fully understand all the implications of temporary continuous and permanent employment. But it seems to me that the fact that less than half the appointments to permanent positions on the staff of the House of Commons are made from those with service in Canada or overseas in either war could give rise to some questions to His Honour the Speaker as to the extent to which the veterans preference is being followed in initial appointments to the staff of the house and in confirming those or changing them from temporary to permanent employment. I wonder if His Honour would care to make some comment on that matter?


Mr. SPEAKER:: I must say to the hon. gentleman that in all the new appointments which are made, we always insist, before considering any candidate, that he should be a veteran. But you will find, as the hon. member has just mentioned, a few temporary employees who are not veterans. However, those employees have been working in the house for some time. The hon. member will understand that we cannot disorganize the service especially to take on some people who have no experience. We have kept those who are employees of the house. But when we are required to fill a new position, we always insist that the candidate should be a veteran-.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am glad to have that assurance. There is one other point on which I should like to ask His Honour a question. Another question asked was with respect to changes in category from temporary to permanent, because I had in mind the point to which Mr. Speaker has just referred. You cannot ignore employees of long service in making these changes. I asked this question:
Of the positions changed from temporary to permanent, how many are now filled by employees
(a)	with less than five years' service on the staff?
(b)	with more than five years but less than ten years?
(c)	with more than ten, but less than fifteen years?
The answer to that question-and I think I can summarize it without being unfair-was as follows:
The 127 remaining positions-
That is, permanent positions not already filled by permanent appointments.
-are filled by temporary continuous employees as follows:
' (a) 43 with less than- five years' service.
(b) 57 with more than five but less than ten years' service.
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(c)	18 with more than ten but less than fifteen years' service.
(d)	3 with more than fifteen years' service.
(e)	6 new positions, et cetera, not filled by temporary continuous employees.
So that of those who are up-graded, there are forty-three out of a total of 127 with less than five years' service. As I say, this is a complicated matter; but again that might be taken as indicating that a number of these changes from temporary to permanent were made from those who have only short service; and that, coupled with the fact that of those who are now getting permanent appointments, less than half served during the war, was the thing which raised a doubt in my mind. I wonder if His Honour the Speaker would care to make any comment?


James Horace King: As hon. members will probably remember, at the end of the last session, in the one previous and in many past sessions representations had been made in the house that employees of the house should be appointed permanently. The question has been considered by the committee on internal economy. We have decided that certain functions in the house should be recognized as permanent. A recommendation has been made, tabled in the house, accepted by the house and sent to the civil service commission. We have not recommended individuals to take such and such a function; we have recommended that such functions should be recognized as permanent. It will be up to the civil service commission to appoint those who are fitted, and who will pass the examination in order to obtain the function.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What principles do the civil service commission follow? Do the same . general considerations apply there as in all appointments, in regard to veterans preference? Is Your Honour satisfied that the veterans preference is being followed in these appointments?


James Horace King: I may say this to the hon. member, and I believe hon. gentlemen will agree that it is only fair. I did not go to the trouble of having certain positions made permanent in order to bring in outsiders for the jobs, when we have people 'here who have filled those positions to the satisfaction of the house for several years. Those people were given an opportunity to apply for the positions, and I hope their applications will be accepted. My idea, and I think the idea of hon. members in asking for permanency, was not to bring people from outside when we have filling those positions employees who are devoted to their work and who have given satisfaction.


Stanley Howard Knowles: First, I should like to say at least one word of commendation. I may have some complaints and requests later; but, despite the faults we may find, from the attention I have given these matters I feel that His Honour the Speaker and the Clerk deserve commendation for the efforts they have made, which as I understand it, have had two principal aims. On the one hand they have sought to move in the direction of a permanent establishment for the House of Commons employees. That is a far cry from the situation twenty or thirty years ago. I am glad that His Honour the Speaker during his term of office and Doctor Beauchesne, before he retires-if indeed that day is drawing near-should have played a part in having it laid down that House of Commons employees should have some permanency. I shall come back to this in a moment.
The other aim which I understand His Honour the Speaker and the Clerk have sought to achieve is that of keeping the House of Commons staff under the control of the House of Commons. I readily recognize, as has been brought out by the discussion we have had already, that this does create a problem, because we in the House of Commons do not want to see vitiated the principles laid down by parliament for the civil service commission. Yet I think there is something to be said for parliament being in charge of its own employees. If we did not retain that charge, the tendency would be for the House of Commons employees to become government employees. Already we have enough confusion along that line; already there are enough occasions when we ask the government certain things and are told to see His Honour the Speaker. Then, when we try to raise these questions in other ways, by presenting them to His Honour the Speaker, we are informed that these matters involve the expenditure of money and therefore recourse must be had to the government. I quoted that as a bit of digression, just to emphasize the desirability of maintaining control by the House of Commons over its own staff, without vitiating any other principles we have laid down. I am also satisfied that the employees of the House of Commons prefer to have it that way.
I offer that word of commendation to His Honour the Speaker and to Doctor Beauchesne sincerely and without qualification. However-and some hon. members may say, "Here comes the qualification"-I feel they have not gone far enough with the matter of the establishment itself. I may be told that one should be patient and wait for time to

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achieve these things; but it does seem to me that in the meantime some of our most faithful employees have to continue as temporaries, hired from year to year. I do not think that is fair to them, nor is it fair to us. We simply cannot expect the kind of service we want if we ask the people wlho work for us to be hired from year to year, with no guarantee of permanency and no security in their later years, after they have given us service for a long period. Therefore I rise to urge again most strongly upon His Honour the Speaker that he press this matter of a proper pension plan for House of Commons stenographers, shall I say. There are others, of course; I do not speak to the exclusion of any other class of employees, but we in this chamber know the situation with respect to our stenographers and can speak about it intelligently.
This very day last session-I refer to the closing day of the third session of the twentieth parliament-when an attempt was made to get through the business so that prorogation could be had, I yielded to the suggestion not to speak on this matter in order to save time. One reason I yielded was that the Prime Minister gave me the assurance that the matter would be considered between the end of the last session and the beginning of this session. I saw to it that I received this assurance later in the form of a letter from the Prime Minister in reply to a letter I wrote him, and in subsequent correspondence even after that, with both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance. In that correspondence we got down to details. The sort of suggestion that seemed to evolve was that House of Commons stenographers be put on a basis comparable with that of the Hansard reporters. The Hansard reporters are permanent employees; they are paid a yearly salary. They are required to be here when the house is in session. When the house is not in session they are free to enjoy a well-deserved holiday, after listening to us for all these months, or if they are beggars for punishment they can go off and take shorthand notes somewhere else. It seems to me that that kind of basis would best meet the problem of House of Commons stenographers.


Frank Exton Lennard: Apparently your negotiations did not get very far, because conditions are worse now than they were then.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I thank my hon. friend for his support. That is exactly why I am not refraining from making a speech todlay. I refrained a year ago; and, as my hon. friend says, where did it get me, or where did it get the House of Commons stenographers? It produced an interesting file which I have
upstairs, but which I did not bother to bring down because I am pretty familiar with the situation.
The suggestion I made was that a figure-
I shall be reasonably conservative in this instance-of about $1,800 might be offered, which would be the salary a House of Commons stenographer would get for the year. Let her be required to be here to serve members during the session, and in the intervening period let her have a holiday or do as she wishes. Then, having given these stenographers that kind of permanency, it would not be much of a problem for the superannuation branch of the Department of Finance to work out a pension scheme.
When we have made our representations to the Minister of Finance, although he may show an interest in the matter, in the final analysis he delivers them to His Honour the Speaker. I do not expect his Honour the Speaker to work out a superannuation plan w'hen we have experts in the Department of Finance. But before you can have a superannuation plan for the House of Commons stenographers, you must have some permanency. I am prepared and the stenographers are prepared to accept some alteration in the plan that I have proposed.
I urge His Honour the Speaker to press this matter strongly. As I said a moment ago, it is only fair to the stenographers themselves. Surely this House of Commons should be a model employer. Surely we should not fall behind in the matter of old age security. I suggest that it is only fair to ourselves as well that this matter should be fixed up.
Before I sit down I should like to refer to another matter affecting House of Commons employees. This has to do with wage and salary increases. His Honour will recall that on March 24, before we went home for the Easter recess, he indicated that the internal economy commission was considering salary and wage increases, which would be reported immediately after Easter, all of which would be made retroactive to October 1. Later that same day, when questioned in the house, His Honour the Speaker said, as reported on page 2592 of Hansard:
The positions of all employees of the house are being considered at the present time by the internal economy commission of the house.
And later:
I have every reason to believe that all the employees will be perfectly satisfied.
As a result of that statement, all employees felt that increases would be forthcoming and would be retroactive to October 1. No distinction was made in that statement between
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permanent and temporary employees. 'Rather than, make assertions myself on the basis of information that has been communicated to us, I would prefer Mr. Speaker to tell us the situation.
As I understand it, quite a number of employees have had increases granted to them, some by means of a vote of this house and others without the necessity of a vote. In some cases the increases were made retroactive to October 1. In the case of other employees, notably the men cleaners in this building, increases were granted but were made retroactive only to May. Similarly, I understand that the amanuenses who work with the Hansard reporters received increases, but again they were not made retroactive to October 1 as planned.
I have yet to learn whether the mechanics around the building have had any increases. The stenographers who have been asking for some permanency and for some pension plan have not had increases for a considerable time, and certainly have not had increases since the announcement was made by His Honour the Speaker on March 24.
I have tried to cover this matter in some detail, because we are all interested. I have tried not to speak in complaining tones or to be provocative. I think His Honour wall recognize the sincerity of the two points of commendation I made at the outset of my remarks. I feel that not only would the employees be happier, but all hon. members of this House of Commons would be happier if His Honour could give us some assurance on these two points: first, that there will be some kind of permanency and some kind of pension plan for employees like our stenographers and, second, that there will be wage increases or salary increases retroactive to October 1 for all our employees, as indicated by His Honour on March 24.


Mr. GILLIS:: I should like to say a few words on this matter. I want to start by saying that I do not think His Honour the Speaker or the Clerk of the House has any more responsibility in connection with these estimates than the individual members of this house. The Clerk of the House is an employee of the House of Commons who works for us. The Speaker is an elected member who, because of his good judgment and ability, is permitted to sit up in the chair and be almost put to sleep at times with the speeches to which he must listen. He presides over the house; that is all. I do not think hon. members should take the attitude that those two gentlemen are responsible. I have never taken that attitude. Whatever is wrong with the

whole set-up in the House of Commons is the responsibility of every member of the House of Commons.
I look upon the staff of this house as working for the members of this house. We have heard many arguments in the house in favour of setting up collective bargaining machinery, national labour codes, and looking after everybody in the country outside the house, and then we take the attitude that the employees in the house are the responsibility of two people who have no more responsibilify in the matter than any one of us.
The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre went into this matter in some detail and I am not going to repeat anything that he has said. However I should like to deal with one branch, the stenographic branch. I think this offers a shining example of the way in which we are out of step with the times. Twenty years ago there were fifty-four stenographers in the pool, working in one room with one telephone and supervised by practically the same administrative staff that they have today when there are 155 stenographers, working in five rooms with six telephones. Incidentally, the rooms leave much to be desired. This indicates the terrific growth of the branch, but the administrative personnel has not increased at all.
The chief of the stenographic pool has had an increase of $400 a year in twenty-one years. That is certainly not keeping pace with the times. That is the only increase which has been given, despite the fact that there is three times as much work to do today. I think everyone will agree that a person who can manage a branch containing 155 stenographers and please the members of this house would need the patience of Job and the judgment of the Speaker. I realize the job he has on his hands and I think his salary is much too low. This matter should be looked into to see if something cannot be done.
This gentleman has one assistant who was recently appointed to that position. That person, too, is on the job all the time. That staff has the administration of the stenographic branch, which works for every department in this house. I think approximately thirty of the personnel work the year round. The three people I speak of, one a principal clerk, and the other two, the chief and his assistant, are on full time throughout the year. We all know what an assistant is. He is like a lance-corporal in the army. All the orders have to be carried out by him. He makes the unpopular decisions. He is running around in all directions. Recently the clerks of committees of this house had their salaries

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increased. I find that the salary of the assistant to the chief of the stenographic branch is away below that of the clerks of committees.
The members of the house should not plead with the Speaker or blame the Speaker or request the Speaker or the Clerk of the House. I think we, the members, should say that we think the salaries should be brought into line with those of other employees of the House of Commons and with the salaries paid through the civil service commission. There should be no discrimination. That is our job. It is not our job to blame the two men who happen to be unfortunate enough to have to pilot these estimates through the house.
Then there is the question of a retiring allowance. There is a superannuation scheme for the civil service, and it is merely a matter of our determining whether the House of Commons employees should be brought under it or not. Every member of this House of Commons is aware of the fact that employees have been working in this building for twenty-five years who are still temporaries on small salaries, and many of them have about reached the retiring age. When they leave they have no pension, and no recognition is made of the services they have rendered to the members of the house during the many years they have been here. I cannot understand this business of a person working on a job for twenty-five years and still being considered a temporary. Any employee engaged in any capacity, no matter where, will have been able to demonstrate to his employer within a year whether he should be retained or not. If they have proved themselves worthy of being kept on, they should be made permanent, and whatever retiring allowance regulations apply in other departments should apply equally to them. I know a couple of old ladies who had worked in the stenographic pool for thirty years and who took sick and were laid off without half a day's salary and had to leave this building and get along as best they could without any income whatsoever. I do not think that is good enough for the members of the House of Commons, but the idea has grown up in the minds of the members that the Speaker and the Clerk are responsible. The members build a defence mechanism around themselves by blaming these conditions upon others. Actually the responsibility is on each and every member of this house, and not on the two persons we try to blame for not doing this or that or for doing the other.
The administrative staff of the stenographic pool is too small. I know that on paper there are eleven principal clerks who have been made
permanent this session, and the assumption is that they are at the disposal of the chief and assistant chief of the pool, but they are not. They work upstairs in somebody else's office and have nothing to do with the administration of the pool itself. So the administrative staff of the pool boils down to two or three people.
The stenographic pool is not merely a stenographic pool for the members of this house. They are cutting stencils for every department in this building. They are working for everybody, and they are on the job night and day just as long as the members of this house are working.
I am not going to tell the Speaker what kind of superannuation scheme should be worked out. All he has to do is to pick up a telephone and get in touch with the civil sendee commission, w'hich has experts who can work these things out. I believe that any employee of this house who has been working here for five years should now be made permanent, and the superannuation scheme should be made applicable to him. I do not think temporaries who are made permanents and come under the superannuation scheme should have to make up contributions for .the last fifteen or twenty years, which some of them otherwise would have to do. The government should make that contribution for them. I think five years would be far enough back to go. We, the members of this House of Commons, should determine here this afternoon that in future no employee who has been here for any length of time should be retired from the service of the members of the house and sent out on the street without some income such as is drawn by retired civil servants generally.
That is all I have to say on the matter, Mr. Speaker. I want you to understand that I am not blaming you or the Clerk of the House. I am blaming ourselves, the members of this house, and I am accepting my full share of the responsibility.


Mr. RICHARD (Ottawa East):: I am one of those who believe that the members of this house, to whatever party they may belong, are anxious to have efficient service from the employees of the house, and that they are also anxious to see that the nates of pay and conditions of work are the best that can be found in any part of the civil service of Canada.
While some suggestions and criticisms may be made in connection with the plan w'hich has been submitted this year, this, after all, is but the first real forward step which has been taken, and we cannot expect in the first year to find everything we might wish for. As a matter of fact, I have no doubt, that between now and the next session of parliament, the Speaker will have considered the suggestions
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which have been made as a result of the publication a>nd approval of this plan, and that the lot of the employees of this house will be better for it. If one were to go through the different branches he could find any number of suggestions to make with regard to the employees of this house. Some have been champions of the stenographic staff, others of the messenger staff. I might, for example, say that the head of the maintenance and cleaning staff is probably not receiving anything like the salary he should have as the head of an important service, such as the cleaning and maintenance of this building. That is only a suggestion. I am sure that those who are responsible for establishing the salaries of the employees of this house will, between now and next session, consider -readjusting those salaries. I shall not take up time by going into particulars.
I should like to congratulate the staff on the floor of this house. I think the chief of pages, the assistant chief and all the page boys are to be congratulated upon the work they have done and the assistance they have given us during the session. I have one suggestion to make. These young boys have been working in the mornings lately, and I should like to see the Speaker consider giving them one or two weeks' salary, as we did last year, for the extra time they have to spend here at the end of the session.


Frank Exton Lennard: I would not be rising to speak at this time if the Minister of Finance had assumed his proper responsibility last evening when I spoke on item 85 in support of the stenographers of the members of the House of Commons. I wish to draw attention to what I said last evening, because the Minister of Finance said he would turn the matter over to the Speaker. I do not think it is any concern of the Speaker. However, in a few words I am going to reiterate what I said last evening, to make doubly sure that the Speaker knows of this sad state of affairs.
My complaint is this. Until a year ago when these stenographers were given temporary positions between sessions in some of the departments of government they were classed as grade 2 maximum. For the first time last year they were classed as grade 2 minimum at a reduction of $23 a month in salary. That is unfair. I heard comments this afternoon on the splendid manner in which increases have come about, and all that sort of thing. Here is an instance of members' stenographers having their salaries reduced in the temporary positions which they are qualified to take when the house is not

in session. How can we expect to get good stenographers-and	we need first-el&ss
stenographers in this house-if that is the way they are to be treated? To the best of my knowledge, House of Commons stenographers have not received an increase in their basic wages for the past twelve years.


Mr. McILRAITH:: They have had substantial ones.


Frank Exton Lennard: Since when?


George James McIlraith: Each year for the last eight years.


Frank Exton Lennard: They have received increases?


George James McIlraith: Yes, definitely.


Frank Exton Lennard: That is news to me.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member is sure of that?


George James McIlraith: Yes. It used to be $4 a day.


Frank Exton Lennard: At any rate that is the state of affairs that I drew to the attention of the Minister of Finance last night. It is his responsibility. It was the Department of Finance, not the civil service commission, which issued the instructions that these girls should be classified as grade 2 minimum. I see the hon. member for Ottawa East shaking his head. He seems to doubt it.


Jean-Thomas Richard: Yes, I doubt it. I 'think it was the civil service commission.


Frank Exton Lennard: My information is that the instructions came from the Department of Finance. It does not matter wlho is responsible; it is wrong and it should be righted.


Howard Charles Green: When His Honour the
Speaker is checking up on the different points which have been raised by hon. members who have preceded me, I wish he would check the cases of five or six members of the staff who were formerly on the protective staff. They are all veterans. Some of them were disabled. For one reason or another they were taken off the protective staff some six or seven years ago. Most of them are now messengers. One or two are on the cleaning staff. They were put on these other jobs but continued at the salaries they were receiving as protective officers. I understand that they have had no increases whatever. The salaries of other people about the building have been increased, but these men have not had any increase. They should have increases in the same way as the salaries of other members of the staff have been increased. I would ask His Honour to look into that particular situation.

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There is one other matter that I should like to raise on this item. The debates reporting branch comes under His Honour the Speaker. That branch is known to hon. members as the Hansard office. It is a fine office. A wonderful spirit is shown there. It has always been a great help to the members of the house. This year two of the members of the staff are retiring, Mr. Frederic W. S. Galbraith, who is the associate editor, and Miss L. A. Kearns. I am sure that all hon. members will join with me, and will approve of my saying a word in praise of these two officials of the house.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Howard Charles Green: They have been here for many years. Mr. Galbraith was a parliamentary reporter from 1912 to 1936. Since that time he has been the associate editor of debates. I believe Miss Kearns has been here even longer than Mr. Galbraith. They have always shown the utmost patience in their work. Sometimes I marvel that any individual could have such patience.


John Thomas Hackett: With our speeches.


Howard Charles Green: Yes. They work late hours. They have a very difficult job. They have been very friendly and highly efficient. I am sure that we all wish them good luck in their well-earned retirement. They will not be with us another session.
It seems to me that these two officials of the house exemplify the ideal Canadian civil servant. I do not believe there is a finer civil service in the world than the Canadian civil service. As I have said, these two officials have shown the very finest spirit. We all wish them the very best of luck.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: May I just add a word to what the hon. member for Vancouver South has said? I was going to say something in regard to the retirement of these two officials. I shall be brief, but I do want to associate myself, and the party which I lead in this house, with what has been said. From both Mr. Galbraith and Miss Kearns we have received every courtesy at all times. The efficiency of the debates office is proverbial among members. When you think of the state of the house at times, the interjections and all the rest of it, it is amazing that seldom has an hon. member to rise in his place and make a correction, so seldom that it is unusual to see anyone do such a thing.
Miss Kearns is in charge of the records and the indexing of the topics. After one has searched Hansard oneself to find a reference of years back one can go to that office and get the reference with great efficiency and great
speed. We all wish both Mr. Galbraith and Miss Kearns many years of leisure and of happiness in their retirement.
As the hon. member for Vancouver South has said, I believe these two officials, whom we are thus honouring today in these few remarks, are typical of the splendid type of person that we have generally in the civil service of Canada.


Solon Earl Low: I am glad that the devoted services of these two officials, Mr. Galbraith and Miss Kearns, is being recognized here this afternoon. I want to join with all the others in expressing the appreciation of our group of the splendid service that we have been given. Sometimes I have wondered how it wias that some of the speeches that have been given in this house appeared so good when they came out in Hansard. I suppose it is because of the efficiency of the people in that office. At any rate I have found them at all times very helpful and very efficient, and certainly most devoted in their duties. We all wish them in their retirement long years of happiness.


Jean-François Pouliot: As senior member on this side of the house I remember the time when Mr. Galbraith used to be a reporter, and he was doing that job just as well as he does the job of editor. I know Mr. Galbraith well, but I do not call on him every day I speak because I rely on him implicitly. I have given him a blank cheque to correct, but mot to add to my speeches. Sometimes I am dumbfounded to see what beautiful English is attributed to me, and it is due to Mr. Galbraith. When I want to know Where I can find a statement that interests me, or that I may need, when I want to know on what day I spoke on such and sudh >a matter, I have only to call on Miss Kearns. I believe she has the index at the tip of her fingers. She is always ready to help at any time of the evening we may call on her. I praise Miss Boyce very much also. She has retired. She also was most helpful.
I am sorry that Mr. Galbraith is going. I shall miss him. Sometimes at night, after a hard day's work, I used to go up to Hansard to have a little Chat with him and it was quite inspiring. It helped me to forget the vicissitudes of the day.
They are all great people. I have a great admiration also for Mr. Young. He _ is a former Hansard reporter and he did his job there very well, as he does as editor.
I congratulate them all on what they have done. I express my gratitude for the services they have rendered me, and I want them to know of my admiration for those services both to myself and to my colleagues.
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Before I conclude I must say that we have a good service in all the departments. The stenographers have been mentioned. They are first class. There is my friend Cyril Wright, who was forgotten for a long time. He is most helpful. He looks after the mimeographed copies. He deserves something and I am sure he will get it. There are many others that I might mention. They are congenial and helpful. I might say the same about the constables, the same about the post office. The post office is a marvellous organization, when we think of the quantity of mail that passes through it, without a letter being put in the wrong drawer. The employees there are ready to serve, and some times when you have a letter to mail they will run back to get the last mail bag to make sure that it goes. They run as if it were a letter they were personally interested in.
I think the government has done well in all these respects. I congratulate Mr. Speaker and I congratulate the Clerk, the assistant clerk and the sergeant-at-arms. I wonder if it is due to their co-operation that we have now the best House of Commons service that I can recall. You, Mr. Chairman, and the vice-chairman must not forget that you have helped us a good deal at times. Without you life would be miserable.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: 
Thomas Reid: You are late in raising the point.


Mr. McLURE:: I wish to. endorse all the good things that have been said with reference to those about whom hon. members have been speaking, and I wish to add one fact for the information of the committee. I am doubly proud of the editor for the reason he is a Prince Edward Islander.

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Mr. HANSELL:: I do not know that I entirely agree with the hon. member for Kootenay West. I know that there may appear to be discrepancies and I am aware that when you compare a man holding the position of manager of a restaurant with a doctor of philosophy in chemistry in some department there may seem to be a considerable discrepancy. I do not favour discrepancies, but I do not wish to see the salary of a parliamentary restaurant employee brought down; I want to see the others lifted up.
The hon. member mentioned this case by way of illustration. Somehow or other you find that sort of thing all through life and I do not know whether we shall ever get away from it. Take a parliamentary secretary, a stenographer. These people have to take a business course, and yet some slip of a girl may go into a factory as a rivetter and receive more because she is turning nuts in an assembly line. She will get more than a trained stenographer. The same thing is true generallj' in life and I do not know how we are going to adjust these things. Certainly a parliamentary stenographer is worth more than a girl dressed in overalls working in an assembly plant, but the same is true in life. A college graduate will go out and teach school for anywhere from $125 to $200 a month. Another fellow too lazy to get through high school drives a truck at $6, $7, $8 and $10 a day. As I say, these things happen in life and I do not know that the comparison is an altogether fair one.
I will say this, as far as the parliamentary restaurant is concerned, and I believe I express the view of many members. At least this year, and perhaps for the last couple of years, the parliamentary restaurant and cafeteria have done a much better job than they used to do. That is my own personal opinion. There might be need for a little further investigation of the over-all conditions as to salaries paid to the House of Commons help. I am not now raising one case and pitting it against another, but I believe there are discrepancies. I would urge those in authority to review them again. For instance, I understand that the protective staff who look after the senate door are paid a little more than those who look after the other door. I do not know why that is.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member is suspicious.


Ernest George Hansell: Perhaps the senate door is more dangerous than some other door. But the protective staff have to stand on the same hard floors. One does not have to do more than the other. It seems to be about the same 5849-393J
kind of job. I do not know why there should be discrimination there. However, I do not intend seriously to criticize these things except to say that some thought might be given to an adjustment here and there.


William Gourlay Blair: AVith regard to the assistant chief and the principal clerk of the stenographic pool, I should like to know the dates of their appointments, and whether they are returned soldiers.


James Horace King: They have been discharging these duties for three or four years as temporaries. Application has been made to the civil service commission to have permanent appointments made.


William Gourlay Blair: I wanted to know if these men are veterans.


James Horace King: No, they are not veterans. It will be up to the civil service commission to accept them or not.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I Should like His Honour
the Speaker to answer the main points to which I drew his attention, if he will.


James Horace King: The hon. member for AVinnipeg North Centre asked me two questions. The first was as to pensions. As he himself has mentioned, I have nothing to do with that, so he cannot expect to have an answer from me. The second question was with regard to an increase in salaries. I have told the house, as he mentioned a few minutes ago, that I was hoping an increase would be given to all employees of the house. As he knows, nearly all the employees had an increase. If there are any cases which have not yet been covered, I am sure that satisfaction will be given at some time in the future.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I appreciate the answer His Honour has made to my second question. It sounded like an assurance that those who have not yet had an increase will have their cases considered even yet. As to my first question with regard to a pension plan for groups such as House of Commons stenographers, it seems to me that we are not even as far ahead as we were on the last day of the last session. On that day I had the assurance of the Prime Minister that the matter would be considered.


James Horace King: If the hon. member will permit me to interrupt, in order to save time, I should like to say this. He himself said a few minutes ago that he did not believe it was the responsibility of the Speaker. I must say this to him. We have already done a great deal, I believe, during the last year with regard to permanent establishments and increases. I
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will promise the hon. gentleman to take up that matter of pension with the proper authorities as soon as possible.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am glad to have that promise from His Honour the Speaker, and I accept it. My only reason for taking another moment, despite the opposition to taking any time, is as a result of what happened last year. I should like to clear with His Honour the question of what I said a moment ago. I said, and I stand by it, that I do not think it is the function of His Honour the Speaker to work out the details of a pension plan. He agrees with me that details of the kind should be worked out by the experts in that field. But when we take the matter up with the Minister of Finance, in whose department those experts have been found, he says, "See His Honour the Speaker". The course which must be pursued if action is to be taken seems fairly clear. His Honour the Speaker, on behalf of members of this house who are concerned about the matter, must put the drive behind it. He can go to the Department of Finance to get the work done; but as members we shall have to depend on our first commoner to put the push behind this pension plan. I am glad to have his promise to do all he can; and I hope that when we come back in the fall, or whenever the next session is held, there will be a favourable report ready for implementation.


Thomas Reid: Before this item is passed I wish to say one word, and I do so now as a result of statements that have been made to me around here that the only ones who champion the cause of the staff are members of the CjC.F. group. I wish to repudiate that right now, because I am tired of listening to statements that only that group is the voice of humanity. I wish to tell you, Mr. Chairman, and through you, the committee, that many members on this side, including myself, have gone in delegations to the Speaker and to the Clerk, behind the scenes, fighting for the staff. I wish that to be distinctly understood and to be in the record; because I recall a member of this House of Commons exposing in the house some of the things that were going on around here. I may tell you that it was just a well for him, perhaps, that he did not run again, having regard to the black looks he got in some quarters. One could say plenty about what is going on around this house, and it is not said by members; but few have the courage to get up on their feet and say it. I particularly want to say that members on this side of the house, including myself, have been fighting continuously, but of course not openly in

the house; we think we can do more behind the scenes. I am putting this on record now so that the staff may understand that members on the Liberal side are thinking of the staff just as much as are members of the C.C.F. I want that made clear.


Clarence Gillis: There is just one thing I want to say, before this item passes, with regard to what the hon. member for New Westminster has had to say. In my remarks I said that we were all responsible if there was anything wrong around this house, not merely the Speaker or the Clerk. Hon. members should not go to the Speaker or the Clerk and try to dump the responsibility on them. It is our job; and I hope that in future we will view it in that way.
The hon. member for Lanark asked whether the assistant chief and the principal clerk in the stenographic pool were veterans or otherwise. I wish to make my position clear on that point. I believe the veteran should get the preference wherever he is entitled to it, but there are hundreds of people in the employ of the government who served in that employment all during the war, and who were rejected for military service. I think it is a wrong principle to say that men who volunteered or were called up, who were rejected for service and then served for eight or ten years in certain positions, should be replaced because, through no fault of their own, they were not in the service. I want to make that clear, because I know that at least one of 'the persons the hon. member inquired about-that is, the assistant -is in that category. I believe we should clarify our thinking on the subject; otherwise we can get into a lot of trouble. I want to make my position clear.


Jean-François Pouliot: I congratulate the hon. member on his courageous statement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
House of Commons-
7hi. To provide for an annual allowance to the deputy chairman of committees, $2,000.
['I congratulate the hon. member on his courageous statement.']
Stanley Howard Knowles: I just want, to say "hear, hear" to this. We are all glad to see it in the estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
695. Departmental administration - further amount required, $60,750.
John Thomas Hackett: Will the minister give us in a word the reasons for these substantial increases? The third item, for instance, entails an increase of over thirty per cent, and

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the first one practically twenty per cent. Perhaps the minister will make a general statement.
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Secretary of State for External Affairs): At the time the general estimates were prepared it was expected that most of the commitments made in the last fiscal year would be paid out of the money appropriated for that year. This amount of $60,750 is required principally for accounts of the king's printer which related to work ordered during the last fiscal year for which the accounts did not come forward in time to be paid out of the appropriations of that year. Therefore this is in the nature of a revote, because the vote having lapsed through the expiry of time, the commitment has to be taken care of out of money that was not provided in the regular estimates. The same is tine of the next item for $5,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
697. Representation abroad-further amount required, $233,615.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: A portion of this amount is required for operating expenses, including salaries, of local engaged staff in Belgium, Italy, Russia, United States, Denmark, Poland and New York. Included in the vote is $190,000. which may or may not be expended. This amount is intended to provide for negotiations now being carried on for the acquisition of embassy premises in Rio de Janeiro. Something has been recommended to us as an opportunity to acquire premises that would be suitable for our embassy there. Though the amount appears quite large, we have confirmed from various sources that it is an appropriate price for the premises under consideration. In the long run it would mean an economy in administration expenses if. as I take it to be the case, we are permanently to be represented in the capital of Brazil. I think hon. members will feel that, as long as we do maintain representation in South America, we could not afford not to be represented in Brazil. AVe are not at all certain that we shall be able to secure this property, but if it can be secured at a price not exceeding $190,000 we think it would be advisable to obtain it.
John Thomas Hackett: That opportunity, if it be considered such, has presented itself since the original estimates were brought down?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes. It is a property that was occupied by a prominent Canadian national who is coming away from Brazil. Our information is that we would be able to get it for a smaller number of Canadian dollars than he would be prepared to take in Brazilian currency, which would have to remain in Brazil.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
702. AA'orld health organization, $200,000.
John Thomas Hackett: AA7ill the minister explain this item? Is it something that was not foreseen at the time of the preparation of the
original estimates?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes. This is an assessment of Canada's contribution to the world health organization, whidh had not bean made at the time the main estimates were prepared.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
701. International wheat council, $20,000.
John Thomas Hackett: I thought this had been in existence for a long time, and we should be well acquainted with the amount necessary to maintain it.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: This amount of $20,000
is required to pay the Canadian government's contribution to the international wheat council for 1947-48. This council wias set up in 1942, and consisted originally of only five members. As a result of almost continuous work by government experts since that date, an international wheat agreement has been drawn up which was signed at Washington on March 6, 1948, by the .representatives of thirty-six countries. It takes the form of a multilateral bulk contract for five years, under width the three supplying countries undertake to sell and the importing countries undertake to buy 500,000,000 bushels of wheat at prices fixed in the agreement. The new agreement calls for a greatly enlarged secretariat, since it will have the responsibility of working out price equivalents. dealing with disputes and registering sales. It is expected, therefore, that at the first meeting .of the new council in July, 1948, a total budget of $85,000 will be set. The share of the participating countries in the budget is to be in direct ratio to their voting power in the council, which in turn is based upon the quantities they have agreed to export or import. Canada has agreed to export
230.000.	000 bushels of the total of 500,000,000 bushels, and it is therefore expected that her contribution on that basis, if the budget is
885.000.	will amount to $19,550, United States funds.


John Thomas Hackett: Are Russia, Brazil and Australia members of this council?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Australia is a member of this group. Russia and Argentina are not.


John Thomas Hackett: AVhat about the United States?
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Mr. ST. LAURENT: The United States is the second largest member of the exporting side of the group.


Mr. HATFIELD:: Have the agreements been signed?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: By a resolution adapted the ether day, the house gave ratification to the signature on the part of Canada.


Heber Harold Hatfield: What about the United States?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The United States has not yet dealt with it. As the bon. member knows, congress is now adjourned, and it will not be possible to have this matter dealt with until the next session.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Do they all have to sign before the agreement comes into effect?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: A substantial portion is required; and the agreement is not in a position to become operative on August 1 of this year, as had been hoped.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International joint commission-
703. To provide for preliminary studies and surveys of the midwestern watershed, $30,000.
John Thomas Hackett: Has any consideration
been given to the appointment of a chairman of the international joint commission?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: There are two vacancies in the Canadian section of the commission, and the position of secretary also is vacant. It is hoped that when consideration has been completed it will provide for the filling of the three vacancies.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
70i. To provide for the Canadian government's contribution to the international refugee organization, $5,415,000.
Solon Earl Low: What is the basis upon which Canada's contribution is arrived at?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	As hon. members
know, this international refugee organization arises out of a resolution which was adopted by the united nations on December 15, 1946. Canada has already made a contribution covering the first period of its operation. Under the constitution Canada's share in the administrative expenses is 3-2 per cent, which according to the budget would require $153,529 United States funds. Canada's portion of the operational expenses is 3-5 per cent, which according to the budget would amount to $5,258,024.03 United States funds.


Solon Earl Low: That is the second period?

Mr. ST. LAURENT: For the second period. As the hon. member knows, this is for the maintenance of displaced persons in camps and to cover other expenses incurred by the organization which provides the equivalent of steamship transportation to such displaced persons as have come to Canada. Displaced persons are now being transported by air, but the international refugee organization pays only the equivalent of steamship transportation. The resort to air transportation has been due to the insufficiency of steamship accommodation.


Solon Earl Low: During the second period how many refugees did Canada receive?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I have not that information, but I can get it for the hon. member. It would have to come from the immigration branch and the Department of Labour.


Solon Earl Low: Is the number in these camps being whittled down substantially?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Substantial numbers have been relieved from the hardship of merely getting a sustenance in these displaced persons camps.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the department any record of the number of persons who have been admitted to Canada as compared with the other countries who are members of the international refugee organization? What organizations in Canada are recognized as sponsors of persons in refugee camps in order that they may be admitted to Canada? Does this cover the administration of displaced persons camps on the continent of Europe or wherever they may be?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I shall answer the third question first, if I may take them in that order. This covers all expenditures made by the international refugee organization, which would include expenditures for the maintenance of displaced persons camps on the continent of Europe. I am sorry I have not the information here with which to answer the other two questions, but I can obtain for the hon. gentleman a comparison between the number admitted to Canada and the number admitted to other countries who participate in the organization. I know in a general way that we are in advance of what would be our quota.	.
The hon. member asks what organizations are recognized as sponsors. I do not know that there are any such organizations. The Department of Labour and the immigration branch control these matters, and arrangements are always made so that there is a place for the displaced person to go to. If a displaced person is admitted under the regulations concerning

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near relatives of residents of Canada, the Canadian resident would undertake to make proper provision for the displaced person upon arrival.
Those who have come in to augment our labour forces have gone to the mining and forest industries, as well as to the clothing trade. Arrangements are always made so that these persons will have a job on arrival. The same thing is true, as the hon. member knows, of those who come to Canada to engage in domestic service. More requests are received for these people than there are persons to take positions. The lists are prepared and approved by the immigration branch and the Department of Labour.
I assume the hon. member knows that both these departments carefully screen the applications to make sure that a displaced person can be fitted into our community. I think the general impression throughout Canada is that the employment in domestic service of persons from these camps on the continent has been extraordinarily successful. I know a great many families where these persons have taken domestic service, and taking that as a fair cross-section I think I can say that this has been a very successful operation as well as being at the same time a humanitarian one. These persons have rendered real service in Canada.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I had a case where displaced persons were examined by a representative of a trade union with regard to their qualifications to fulfil the duties of that particular trade, and they were not let in because they did not come up to the specified requirements, I would like to know what method of screening was used. I happened to hear the deputy minister in charge of immigration say the other day that Canada had far exceeded the United States in this humanitarian work. I am just wondering what the screening machinery is.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	The departments
have arranged for teams to visit these camps to assure so far as possible that the persons admitted could be fitted into our economy with advantage both to it and to themselves. It was felt that it would not be a humanitarian service to render to anyone to bring him here if it was not likely that he would fit into our economy.
I said a moment ago that we were ahead of any other country. I want to qualify that. The United Kingdom has taken a larger proportion of these displaced persons than we have been able to receive in Canada and I would not want to leave the other impression. It is the United Kingdom, I think, which up to the present time has the most generously
provided for the rehabilitation of these poor unfortunates in the displaced persons camps.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: I was going to make that remark myself. Canada has done pretty well in comparison with all other countries except Great Britain. The money we have expended in connection with I.R.O. has been very much worth while, from the point of view of both Canada and the refugees themselves. I have not the official information at hand, but I have seen the figure of 10,000, which does not include the Polish soldiers, as representing the number who have been moved to Canada. Somebody suggests that it is more than that, but even if it is only
10,000,	the cost of transporting that number must account for a fair proportion of the money we have already appropriated.
Surely we have an obligation to the displaced persons in these camps who share the democratic viewpoints-and I use the plural- which we hold; and whatever we can do to relieve their sufferings I think we should do. I know that the number of persons in these camps has been reduced to some extent, but I hope that the definition of a displaced person will be extended beyond that adopted in
1946.	Some of those who today are fleeing from Czechoslovakia and other countries which have come under authoritarian or dictatorial rule, should have provision made for them.
But what I rose particularly to say was that there are many desirable people in these camps whom we are overlooking, and I have thought so from the time I was at the united nations meeting in the fall of 1946. I refer to the people of the Balkan countries, Lithuanians, Latvians, and Esthonians. They were at first rather frowned upon because their countries had passed under German domination, and by many they were viewed with suspicion. But many of these people are desirable, and in a higher educational category than those we have been in the habit of taking. I have learned from some of them that there is a disposition to frown upon the better educated groups in the displaced persons camps and bo bring those who might do the more menial tasks in Canada. I gave a clipping to the Minister of Labour the other day which had been sent to me by some friends in the country. It indicated that one of the girls who had just come across had said that she had to "act dumb" in order to get accepted. I do not know how true that is, but I had heard it before. I have heard that it was difficult for the better educated girls to be accepted by our authorities on the ground that they might not fit into the position where it was thought they could serve best.
Supply-External Affairs

I hope we shall consider this in all quarters of the house not so much as an immigration policy but as a humanitarian policy. Surely the determination of our democratic countries in the past has been that we should give refuge to persons who did not want to live under the regimes that had been established in many countries of Europe and from which they had fled. I like to think that Canada will follow that tradition and bring into this country men and women who will not return to their countries of origin because they believe in democracy and in freedom. I deplore the charge hurled against myself and other members of this group that we stand for something other than democracy. That is a reflection ion the political parties in countries such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark and the United Kingdom, who politically share our views.
This group in this house is interested in giving expression to the humanitarian ideal embodied in I.R.O. I know that is true of the Liberal party also, and of our Conservative friends, and I hope that by joining together we -may be able to give these people a haven of refuge in their time of need. If we do, I am convinced that just as Great Britain has benefited from peoples who have gone there from Europe and brought with them wonderful skills, we too may receive the same advantages. Do not let Australia, which is very much interested in this particular group of people, get more of them than we do, and do not let these people go to South America if we can find a place for them here in Canada.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: There is at the present time a team inquiring into the qualifications and capabilities of people whom we generally describe as of the white-collar class, for the purpose of determining how they could be fitted into our Canadian economy.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: I am glad to hear that.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: With respect to my hon. friend's other point, that there was a rather narrow definition of those who might be ^ regarded as displaced persons entitled to assistance under I.R.O., when those regulations were drawn and we were trying to get the 'Consent of all. there was a restriction accepted for no other reason than that of trying to get unanimous consent. There were under our regulations persons who were admissible to Canada but were not qualified to get assistance in what is called "processing" for transportation purposes, and a special amount was included in the department of immigration vote to extend to those persons the financial advantages which they would get from I.R.O. if, for instance, they were relatives of a resident of Canada.


William Henry Golding: I would remind the committee that these items were carried, but the hon. member for Stanstead wished to revert to item 703.


Jean-François Pouliot: Item 704 is not carried, Mr. Chairman.


William Henry Golding: Yes.


Jean-François Pouliot: No. I rose to speak, and at the same time the hon. member for Peace River rose, and the minister made a sign for us to sit down while he was replying to other members. I want to speak on that, and at is not adopted, sir, if you will excuse me.


William Henry Golding: I want to say to the hon. member as plainly as I can that these items are carried and have been sent upstairs. If the hon. member wishes to speak he may do so, but I hope he will not continue to contradict the chairman.


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not want to contradict the chairman. The chairman knows that I love him; we are old friends. I would not contradict him for a kingdom.
My remarks will be brief. Here is an item of $5,415,000 to provide for the Canadian government's contribution to the international refugee organization. It is under the Secretary of State for External Affairs. There are other items, some under the Minister of Mines and Resources, and some under the Minister of Labour for precisely the same purpose, immigration. There are items 221, 222 and 223 in the immigration branch amounting to $3,788,000. In the supplementary estimates there are items 774, 775, 776 and 777 amounting to $2,303,137. These are under mines and resources. In the Department of Labour there is item 148, amounting to $700,000, and item 732, amounting to $250,000. Therefore, sir, we have items of $5,400,000 odd under the Secretary of State for External Affairs; items amounting to $6,092,000 under the Minister of Mines and Resources, and items amounting to $950,000 under the Minister of Labour. It is all spread out. I think it would be right to suggest that all the items that concern immigration should be either under the Secretary of State for External Affairs, the Minister of Labour or the Minister of Mines and Resources, one minister, so that there is one head to direct the immigration policies of the government. I protest strongly against the dissemination of branches of government. We find them under one minister this time, namely, the Secretary of State for External Affairs. We have to refer to the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Mines and Resources. It is complete disorder and

Supply-External Affairs
anarchy. I do not wish to discredit the director of immigration and his assistants; they are able fellows.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The hon. member is right.


Jean-François Pouliot: But the rule between them is never to mind their own business. They always look over the shoulder of somebody to read what he is writing, or to see what he is doing, and to report it and to boast that they are better than the other fellow. It is complete anarchy. If we want reform we must start it in a simple manner. We must acknowledge that all of those who are supposed to do the same thing should be together, so that necessary comparisons may be made and so that there may be a united effort in a common policy, whatever it is. If that is done, we shall be in a better position to judge the policy.
With regard to the vote, may I say that we are about to finish the session, and therefore I shall not insist upon it today but I shall have something to say on it next year. I am greatly concerned about the international refugee organization. I do not know these people. They make no report. We should know what they are doing with the money that Canada pays to them. What are the results? Who are the people that are sent here, and so forth?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am afraid it is my fault. Perhaps unwittingly I misled the hon. member. This amount is not an amount that is expended under the direction of external affairs. It is the contribution that the Canadian government has to make to an international organization under a constitution approved by the houses of parliament. The budget is established by the organization itself, and it is assessed against Canada. The amount I mentioned in this vote is to provide for it.
Incidentally, hon. members asked me questions as to what portion of the activities of the I.R.O. was having a direct effect in Canada. The expenditures made under the control of the Canadian government with respect either to immigration or to placement of labour are under these two departments, and this has nothing to do with the activities controlled by officers of the Canadian department.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the minister. If anything I said did not apply to him, it surely, applies to mines and resources and to labour.


Solon Earl Low: There was one word I wanted to say in regard to this $5,450,000 to the I.R.O. There is a feeling in some sections of Canada that the I.R.O. is shifting some of its responsibilities so that in the end result Canadians are paying for the passages. That was the reason I raised the question in the first place. When people properly classified in Europe as refugees try to come under I.R.O., make application to come to Canada where some of their relatives reside, it has been stated to me on a number of occasions that the relatives had to pay to get these refugees out to this country. That should not be. Has the minister any information on that?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I have no such information. It has been my understanding, and I think that is in accord with what is taking place, that those in the refugee camps, who come within the definition of the charter, are provided for out of I.R.O. funds. There are persons eligible under our regulations to come to Canada and who happen to be in displaced persons camps who are not recognized as refugees in the definition of the constitution. It is for these persons, and in order to put them in as favoured a position as the recognized refugees, that there was included this year in the estimates of the Department of Immigration sums which could be devoted to this processing purpose by voluntary organizations which have been set up, and which are providing assistance, the know-how, that one has to have in order to get all the papers that are required to be transported.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am afraid that the hon. member for Peace River is right.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: If the cases can be drawn to our attention we shall be most happy to take them up with I.R.O.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: I do not know what is happening over there, but I have had cases brought to my attention. In one case the money was collected. When I took up the complaint with the Department of Immigration they told me that it was collected improperly'. Quite recently a domestic in Germany who was coming to this country' was asked to give them 8300 for passage to Canada. Whether there are some persons over there try'ing to take advantage of some of these displaced individuals I do not know; but I do know that the two cases I have mentioned are authentic. The hon. member for Peace River is right. I am quite sure that when it is brought to the attention of the department every effort is made to stop that kind of thing, because it is not within the I.R.O.
Mr. HI.YNKA: I want to say a word on this.
Supply-Transport


William Henry Golding: Order. I must remind the hon. member that these items have been passed. What we have before us is the Department of Transport.
Mr. H'LYNKA: It is so important that I want to say a word. I will take just half a minute. Perhaps I have had as many immigration cases to handle as any hon. member in the house. From experience I can tell the minister that the individual immigrant must pay for his transportation. That is the way it works out. With respect to the group movements which are brought in by industrialists, the money is refunded to the industrialists who make application for the admission of displaced persons and refugees to Canada. But so far as displaced persons are concerned, money is recovered from their relatives who make application to the immigration branch. That is the way it works in practice, and that is why I drew this fact to the attention of the Minister of Immigration a few days ago, with a view to having the matter looked into so that people who are not too well off financially and who cannot help their relatives may get-some assistance.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Canals service-
891. Canals-construction and improvements- further amount required, $1,418,815.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain this?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: This is for additional requirements which were not contemplated at the time the main estimates were prepared. It represents capital construction and the acquisition of equipment for various canals under the jurisdiction of the department.


Howard Charles Green: All canals?


Lionel Chevrier: I did not say all, but various canals.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have had many communications from New York state endorsing the remarks I made some time ago with reference to the completion of the Chambly canal, from six to twelve feet, so that the route of travel from Sorel to New York will be by canal all the way. The minister at that time intimated that he would look into the matter. Has he had time to do so?


Lionel Chevrier: I have not had time since the main estimates, but I told the hon. gentleman that there was a difficulty in the way, though he did not agree with me at the time. It is a difficulty that has to be 
faced, and in view of negotiations under way in connection with the other project I had thought that, until that project was disposed of, I would defer looking into the other matter.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I again suggest that the minister consider it? The deepening of the Sorel-New York canal has no more to do with the St. Lawrence than the man in the moon. They are totally different.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service
[Stage Direction]
898. To provide towards the construction of a lightship for the port of Saint John, N.B.- capital-further amount required, $450,00'0.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister say a word about this? My recollection is that there was something like $1,000,000 for which provision was being made in the main estimates. Would it be for the same purpose?


Lionel Chevrier: The sum of $100,000 was voted for this purpose in the main estimates. This is an additional $450,000, because tenders were asked for and we require funds when the contract is given. The total cost will be $850,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service-
901. Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals-construction and improvement of terminal facilities-capital1-further amount required, $600,000-.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: In the last few days I have received complaints against me personally for not looking after matters on the Tormentine side. I received one letter that criticized me very much for conditions prevailing over there, and I thought that perhaps I might mention it to the Minister of Transport. One of the criticisms which the press got and the department received came from the premier of the province, Mr. Jones. He complained that a week ago last Monday he came down by car from Ottawa and had to wait four hours at Tormentine for a boat to take him over. Then he complained bitterly about there being no rest room accommodations at Tormentine. I explained in answer to communications I received that these were all under construction. The premier went on to say that this was a disgrace, and then he made a further remark regarding the amount that was voted. I quote:
The argument of the dominion authorities with respect to transportation facilities between the island and the mainland, the premier said, was that it had spent $7,000,000 on the terminals at Tormentine and Borden1 and another

Supply-Transport
$7,000,000 on the building of the Abegweit. "The dominion government forgets," the premier said, "that the millions of dollars of wealth produced annually by this province is spent mostly for the benefit of the central provinces."
I draw that to the minister's attention in case he has not seen this article. I am sure that when he sees it he will bring about some improvement.


Lionel Chevrier: Those representations
have been made to me and I am giving them my attention.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-
Civil aviation division-
910. Airways and airports-construction and improvements, including radio facilities-capital (revote $317,450)-further amount required, $2,086,667.
Howard Charles Green: On what airports is this money to be spent?


Lionel Chevrier: I will give the larger amounts. At Malton, 8250,000 for the construction iof a 2,000-foot extension to the east-weBt runway; Sydney, 175,000; Saskatoon, $125,000; Calgary, $250,000; Fredericton, $350,-
000.	The rest is divided into small amounts varying from $50,000 down among the secondary airports. It also includes acquisition ,of equipment and radio services.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-
Civil aviation division-
916.	To authorize contribution to Trans-Canada Air Lines for improvements to airways facilities at Kinross airport, adjacent to Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, on the great lakes route, not exceeding $19,000.
Howard Charles Green: This money is to be spent on an airport in Michigan. Under what arrangement is Canada spending money on an American airport?


Lionel Chevrier: This is an airport used in the great lakes route. Very often, because of weather conditions, T.C.A. has to go down on the American side. There is a 'certain tip of Michigan across which the T.C.A. must fly, and rather than 'build an airport in American territory we find it cheaper to ask the Americans to spend this money. This is the authorized contribution to Trans-Canada Air Lines for improvements they have made to Kinross airport and the money they have paid to the city of Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, on- this route. It is in the amount of $19,000.


Howard Charles Green: Does the T.C.A. pay rental for the use of the field? I have landed there myself, and I am wondering What the arrangement is.


Lionel Chevrier: No. It is not a rental. The 'arrangement is one whereby the amount of money that is required to make facilities available to T.C.A. is paid by it and the department reimburses T.C.A.


Howard Charles Green: Is there not some reciprocal arrangement with the United States? American lines use many of our Canadian airports, and it would seem that there should be some arrangement between the two governments whereby Trans-Canada Air Lines could use American airports and the Americans could use ours.


Lionel Chevrier: I am not aware of such an arrangement. In the establishment of the direct air route between Toronto and Winnipeg, via Sault Ste. Marie, there was some question of the construction of an airport at Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, but after that had been considered, particularly the high cost of construction of that field in comparison with one .already in existence, the latter was adopted. It was thought, with the high cost of .construction of the field, as compared with the one already in existence, it would be much more .profitable to ask the Michigan authorities to allow T.C.A. to operate on this basis. There was no vote provided in the estimates to cover an arrangement such as this. I am not able to tell the hon. gentleman what other expenditures have been made on this field by Canada. I could get the information if he requires it. But this is unquestionably a small amount that is required, and I would think much more than this has been spent by Canada.


Howard Charles Green: Do the Americans not pay anything at all for the use of the airports? They are running lines into Canada at many centres.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, there is a tariff of fees. Perhaps the hon. gentleman was not here when that discussion took place at some length. I have tabled here the charges that are made in this country to United States lines and other lines at our airports. It is quite a complicated thing. It depends upon the weight of the plane, the load it carries, and the like.


Howard Charles Green: Do they contribute anything for improvements to our airports?


Lionel Chevrier: No, they do not contribute anything other than by paying this tariff of fees.


Howard Charles Green: I suppose we pay fees at Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, as well as pay for improvements, do we not?
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Lionel Chevrier: I do not think we do. The reason why this and the following item are set up under separate votes is that this is a different arrangement entirely with the United States. It is not one which is included in the general vote for operation of airfields. For that reason it was not lumped with all the other airfields. This is a separate situation, under special circumstances. For that reason I think there is no similar arrangement. But I should not like to be too positive of that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Item 917 covers the same type of circumstances?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister indicate the nature of the improvements to Kinross airport? As I understand it, it was built during the war as a defence project; and any who have been there recognize that, with its concrete runways, it is about the best in North America.


Frank Exton Lennard: What improvements
could be made?


Lionel Chevrier: This item is to authorize contribution to Trans-Canada Air Lines for improvements to airways facilities at Kinross airport. It is to provide for payment to
T.	C.A. of its share of the cost of installing runway lighting to meet T.C.A. operational standards and requirements at Kinross. The total cost of this improvement was $28,891, toward which the state of Michigan contributed $10,000; and the remainder of $19,000 is to cover the agreement made by the airlines.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to. _	.
Air service-
Civil aviation division-
917.	To authorize contribution of an amount not exceeding $137,490 to the state of Michigan,
U.	S.A.. Department of Aeronautics, towards the cost of operation and maintenance of certain airways facilities at Houghton and Grand Marais, Michigan, U.S.A., for use of Canadian aircraft, as certified to by the controller of civil aviation and approved by the Minister of Transport, $137,400.
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What is the nature of these facilities that are being provided under this item of $137,000? I do mot understand it. I do not think there is any landing field there, unless it might be an emergency one.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes. The position is the same here as at Kinross. It is on the great lakes route and these are facilities for T.C.A. This is a contribution to the state of Michigan for operation and maintenance of certain air facilities for the use of our planes at Houghton and Grand Marais, Michigan. At

Houghton the expenditure is broken down as follows: operation of radio range, $21,520; airport operations, $63,000; and at Grand Marais, Michigan, operation of radio range, $22,550; airport operation, $30,420.


George Hugh Castleden: What is meant by airport operation? Does that mean maintenance of an emergency flying field?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, that is right. This airfield is operated by the Americans, and we reimburse the Americans for this expenditure.


George Hugh Castleden: Are there two emergency airfields? Are they constructed at the present time?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes. They are in operation.


George Hugh Castleden: They are in operation as airfields?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: Are they emergency landing fields or regular fields?


Lionel Chevrier: No, they are not emergency landing fields. They are airfields which are used by the TjC.A. on the great lakes air route. They are built by Canadian funds. This work is actually done with Canadian funds and handed over to the state of Michigan. They are on the Toronto-Winnipeg line.


George Hugh Castleden: They are not on the schedule. They are not used.


Stanley Howard Knowles: They are emergency stops


George Hugh Castleden: They must be emergency stops if they are anything, because there is only one stop between Toronto and Winnipeg on that route, and that is at Sault Ste. Marie.


William Henry Golding: Carried.


Howard Charles Green: No. I should like to find out more about this. Were these airports built by Canada?


Lionel Chevrier: No, they were not built by Canada; but the funds were provided by Canada.


Howard Charles Green: In effect then they were airports installed by the Trans-Canada Air Lines. Is that the position?


Lionel Chevrier: I would rather put it in my own words. The position is that these are Canadian funds. This amount of $137,940 consists of Canadian funds that have been paid over to the state of Michigan for the operation and maintenance of these fields. They are built by the Americans in accordance with the terms of the aeronautics act of the United

Supply-Transport
States and they are in use not as regular stops -perhaps I created the impression a moment ago that they were-but as emergency fields.


Howard Charles Green: They are really emergency
landing fields for Trans-Canada Air Lines. Is that the position?


Lionel Chevrier: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-
Meteorological division-
918.	Meteorological services-further amount required, $165,980.
Mr. ARGUE:: As the minister is well aware, at the present time many areas of western Canada are suffering from drought. I have had a number of farmers ask me recently if there are any regulations to prevent them from hiring people who are in the business of rain making. I know of some areas in which attempts are being made to collect $1,000 to hire somebody to come out and drop a bit of dry ice in the hope that some rain will fall. I should like to know if there are any regulations the farmers must comply with before they can get these people out on a rain making operation, and if the government is giving any assistance toward running an operation of that kind.


Lionel Chevrier: This is a meteorological service which is operated in connection with the air services. It provides services also for the Department of Transport. Rut I am afraid that it would not be possible, under this item, to give to my hon. friend the assistance that he would want.


Hazen Robert Argue: Can the minister give me any information as to whether there are any regulations that the farmers will have to comply with before they can get rain making operations started in their localities?


Lionel Chevrier: I do not think this vote covers the case that my hon. friend raises. This vote is to provide for the salaries of meteorologists at various weather stations in the northern part of Canada.


Hazen Robert Argue: Then would the minister give me the information some other time?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, if I can get it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-
Radio division-
919.	Administration of the Radio Act and regulations-further amount required, $163,400.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: How much is required for the administration of the Radio Act and regulations? Here we have more than $160,000 additional.


Lionel Chevrier: That is perhaps misleading, and I do not blame my hon. friend for asking the question. This vote is to provide for the operation and maintenance of four ionospheric stations. An ionospheric station is pretty much the same as a meteorological station but in another field. It measures the electricity in the air in reference to radio transmission, and from it we can tell whether the weather is suitable for radio transmission, just as the meteorological station tells us whether we are to have good or bad weather for flying. This vote provides for the operation and maintenance of four of these stations which will be built at Moosonee, Fort Chimo, Baker lake and Resolute bay. They are to be built for the purpose of supplying information to the defence research board, which is providing the funds. I understand that those funds have been voted already, and this amount is for the maintenance and operation of these stations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Loans and investments-
National harbours board-
931. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1948 on any or all of the following accounts: Reconstruction and capital expenditures-Montreal-further amount required, $500,000.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain this vote?


Lionel Chevrier: This is for the construction of a portion of the Jacques Cartier pier. One of the portions of the wharf collapsed in 1943, and a small amount of money had to be spent in order to save it from falling entirely. Now the upstream side of the wharf is affected and is in sudh condition that, unless this work is done immediately, there is danger of the whole wharf collapsing. This amount is to provide for the expenditure this year of sums of money required to put the upstream side of this pier in such condition that it will carry on until we are able to give out a contract.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
718. Remission service-further amount required, $37,360.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Why is there need for further money for the remission service? It seems an odd request.


Hon. JOSEPH JEAN (Solicitor General):: This is for an improvement we want to bring about in the remission service. As hon. members know, we have to interview inmates for
Supply-Justice

clemency purposes. Today we have only the Ottawa branch and not enough personnel to go to all the institutions and have personal interviews with the inmates. We intend opening a branch in Vancouver, another in central Canada and another in eastern Canada, so that more frequent interviews may be held with the inmates for these purposes. I believe it will be a great improvement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
720. Combines investigation branch-further amount required, $19,000.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is this the first result of the report of the prices committee? Is this additional amount allocated as a result?


Joseph Jean: This is for the combines investigation branch. As everyone knows, this office has more work today than it had last year, and it appears necessary to provide this extra amount for fees for legal counsel, special assistants, reporters, special commissioners and witnesses. The investigation into the breadbaking industry which is being carried on involves expenditures which were not considered when recommendations were made for the main estimates.


Howard Charles Green: I take it from the Solicitor General's answer that this has nothing whatever to do with the recommendation made by the prices committee?


Joseph Jean: No. This work was going on before that report was made.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any item in the supplementary estimates to meet the recommendation of that committee with respect to the combines investigation branch?


Joseph Jean: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: If I might interrupt for a moment. Not very many items remain. May I ask if it would be agreeable to hon. members to continue sitting without intermission at six o'clock.


Howard Charles Green: That would be satisfactory to the official opposition.


Angus MacInnis: I would point out that this is not as convenient to the reporting staff as it is to us. We can leave this building every now and then, and come back again. The reporters have to carry on, and they have been here since eleven o'clock this morning. We should have some regard for their welfare as Well as for our own convenience.
[Mr Jean.]


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I believe the official staff will be pleased the more quickly we get through with the proceedings. I understand that they are not objecting.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If we could be sure of getting through in an hour I think that would be satisfactory; but there are still items in agriculture, trade and commerce, veterans affairs, justice, post office, reconstruction and supply, and the office of the Prime Minister. I can tell the committee I have nothing more to say, but we do know' some hon. members have matters they are going to raise. I do not believe we can get through in an hour, and I do not think it is fair to carry on in this way. I believe we should have an intermission of at least one hour.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Perhaps we might go on until seven o'clock, and if we do not conclude by that time we could resume at eight.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I would agree to that.
723. To provide for expenses of commission of inquiry into Japanese property claims, $150,000.


Howard Charles Green: Can the Solicitor General tell us when the inquiry into the Japanese property claims is expected to conclude?


Joseph Jean: I cannot say definitely. There is a great deal of work to do. As far as I can see, we may not have a report before next year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
721. To provide for the revision, classification and consolidation of the public general statutes of Canada, $50,000.
Jean-François Pouliot: Has the commission been appointed for this revision of the statutes?


Joseph Jean: Besides the commissioners there will be clerical assistance, for which $12,000 is being provided.


Jean-François Pouliot: Have the commissioners been appointed?


Joseph Jean: 


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Item agreed to.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police-
871- Land services-arising out of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, enforcement of federal statutes generally, and other incidental expenses-further amount required, $1,386,201.
George Hugh Castleden: Could the minister give us a breakdown of this item?


Joseph Jean: It is principally increases in salaries. There are increases in rates of seventy-five cents a day for 2.743 members of the force from April 1, 1948 to March 31, 1949, which require $750,896.

Supply-Post Office


George Hugh Castleden: Would the minister put the new schedules of pay on the record?


Joseph Jean: I do not know if I have it here.


George Hugh Castleden: Could the minister get it from the department and place it on the record?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
806. Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices-further amount required, $155,660.
Howard Charles Green: Several years ago certain employees were taken on the staff at Vancouver on a temporary basis. I have in mind one man who served in both the first and second great wars who was taken on as a temporary letter carrier in 1945 and who has been doing the job temporarily ever since. Apparently a ruling was made a short time ago that these men would have to pass written examinations in order to hold their jobs. This particular veteran tried twice but was unable to pass the examination, and, as a result, he either has been discharged or is to be discharged. This question was dealt with by the special committee on veterans affairs which recommended as follows:
Your committee has been informed that there are a number of veterans of world war I in the lower grades of the civil service who have given satisfactory service over a period of years in a temporary capacity, but who might not be able to pass the required qualifying examinations for permanent appointment. Your committee feels that such men should not be deprived of the benefits of permanency and recommends that, if otherwise eligible, they be confirmed in their positions without written examinations.
I suggest that these men should receive the benefit of that recommendation. If they are able to do the job and have served the country they should receive consideration. I think anyone over fifty years of age might have trouble in passing a written examination.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Hear, hear.


Howard Charles Green: I hear the Prime Minister agrees with that. I think it is being just a little bit tough with these men simply because they are unable to pass an examination.


Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Postmaster General):: These examinations for letter
carriers are rather easy, and it might be difficult to require that some have to pass the examination while others do not. However, my opinion is not formed on this matter and I shall look into it further. I hope the hon. member will give me the name of this man.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-
869.	Housing development, including commitments of previous years-Wartime Housing Limited-further amount required, $15,000,000'.
['I know some would like to have it carried, but I have a few other things to say. A commission consisting mainly of doctors would not be in a position to understand the conduct of a legal investigation into a legal matter. Yet this commission consisting mainly of doctors retained no counsel to guide them! How in the world a group of five men could have considered themselves competent to inquire into so vexatious and so widely ramified a problem as that without a counsel to guide them, I cannot understand. Under the terms of their reference, and under the Public Inquiries Act, under which they were appointed, they had full power to select the finest legal counsel who could! be found in Canada and have him to guide them into the whole of their investigation; but apparently they considered themselves quite capable of doing this thing-a most astonishing situation!\nHaving laid before the house and the country the kind of thing that has apparently been attempted here, I shall not undertake to say what must have been the motive behind the men who set up that commission or planned it. I would not dare to suggest it, even. I would not suggest that the object of the whole thing was to discredit Mr. Kinchner. I would not like to suggest that the object of the whole thing was to whitewash the grievances of those unfortunate veterans, sixty-two of them, so that they would never again have any chance, even to be heard. I would not like to suggest that the object was to deceive parliament, although I must say that the kind of press reports that went out at the time the commission was first appointed to commence its hearings until the last, was certainly of the kind that would deceive the public, because the emphasis in all the press reports is placed on the question of whether or not there was anything wrong with the medical personnel in Shaughnessy hospital, a matter which had\nnever even been suggested by Mr. Kirchner, or by anybody else, so far as I know. The commission makes such a statement as this, for example. This was published in the veterans affairs publication in May, 1948, which all hon. members received:\nMcCann commission report that hospital facilities are satisfactory.\nThis appears under the signature of A. T. Paton, regional public relations officer, and reads as follows:\nMedical and surgical treatment and the results obtained in Shaughnessy hospital are quite satisfactory and of a high calibre-as high as in any hospital in Canada. The percentage of successful operations performed there is, in our opinion, well in line with that obtained anywhere in the profession.\nIt was never even suggested that anything but such was true. Why should a headline in the veterans affairs paper indicate that the charge had been that there was anything wrong with the doctors in Shaughnessy hospital? Further down we have these words:\nTheir report stated, "The commission is satisfied with, and finds no basis for complaint concerning the organization, operation and facilities of Shaughnessy or the qualifications of departmental doctors. On the whole, the commission is fully satisfied with the high degree of competence of all departmental doctors."\nIf you were looking at these headlines, Mr. Chairman, you would find that because these later words are set out in black type this passage is the chief thing which the people were supposed to read.\nI have produced sufficient evidence at this late hour of the session to give hon. members something to think about quite earnestly before we get back next year.\nAs a result of What I have feared from considering this whole affair, this McCann commission, has come as almost the crowning piece of evidence of evil in the whole Canadian pension set-up. I am not criticizing any one of the people in the pension commission, but something is entirely wrong, and this McCann commission is the strongest possible evidence that this house and this country can have, to prove that something is terribly wrong.\nConsidering all these facts, Mr. Chairman, I say the minister should take steps immediately to set up suich an organization as will enable the people of this country to satisfy themselves that the unfortunate veterans who happen to fall between stools, as these lads like Thom and Crowhurst and Harvey, shall have the right to ibe heard before some tribunal that shall be unbiased either politically or in any other way. How can our men have any confidence at all when they have to be tried before a tribunal with such a record as has been', 'Ways and Means', "indicated, and When they feel that they have to appear before an appeal board which is selected from the very men who ruled on their [DOT]cases in the first place? Where is the possibility of justice? I suggest to the minister that something must be done. I will not undertake to suggest what it ought to be, but something certainly must be done to gave our men something like a fair chance.\nOne more thing I should like to say, and it comes as a result of what I have read before, regarding Harvey and some of these boys. Apparently there is a demand on the part of somebody in the Canadian pension commission which has caused the doctors all down through the organization to threaten men who have been veterans, and who find themselves in such circumstances as have been described, with punishment if they write to their member of parliament. Have we got to the point where it must be conceded that in this country, when a man dons the king's uniform and risks his life for the welfare of the state, he thereby forfeits his title to his citizen's rights, that he no longer has the right to communicate with .his member of parliament, that he is in effect disfranchised, as it were? And must he be looked upon as an offender if he writes to his [DOT] member of parliament, and from that time forward be subject to all sorts of petty mean-mess and discrimination, even to the extent perhaps of being locked in a padded cell incommunicado? Have we got to that point? Some hon. members laugh. Well, the members who laugh would be simply appalled if I were to give evidence of a man who spoke to me three days ago, whose word would never be questioned, and who told me exactly what had been threatened him because he had asked for the milk which his doctor had prescribed in the hospital in which he was taken care of. That sort of thing must cease to be."]
Howard Charles Green: Could we have some explanation of this item?


George James McIlraith: June 1, 1948, was cutoff date for the building program of Wartime Housing Limited for the coming year. At that time negotiations were under way with various municipalities which will probably result in agreements being completed with respect to a further 2,250 units under the 1948 rental housing plan. The 1948 building season got under way quite early, and it is probable that these units can foe included in the 1948 program without increasing the carry-over of unfinished houses into the 1949 season, and it is estimated that it will cost this additional amount.


George Hugh Castleden: A Wartime Housing project was started in Yorkton about four or five years ago, the houses being completed about two years ago. The contract for the landscaping work was given to a Winnipeg firm, but up to date this landscaping has not been done. If this contractor is not going to carry out the work I think something should be done about seeing what can be done locally. Will the parliamentary assistant have that looked into?


George James McIlraith: I shall be glad to.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Has the parliamentary
assistant any further information with regard to the Maple Hills emergency housing proposition on the airport. grounds at Charlottetown? According to the press, the government has sold these buildings to the provincial government, and the Department o'f Reconstruction and Supply are washing their hands of this proposition in which they had a 50 per cent interest.


George James McIlraith: There is no item in the supplementaries dealing with emergency shelter and I have no information on that with me. This item is limited to Wartime Housing Limited. I will try to let the hon. member have the information he desires.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
870.	To provide for production and transportation subsidies on steel and iron under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council

further amount required, $3,000,000.
['There is no item in the supplementaries dealing with emergency shelter and I have no information on that with me. This item is limited to Wartime Housing Limited. I will try to let the hon. member have the information he desires.']
Edmund Davie Fulton: We had a discussion here the other day when tlhe production subsidy on steel was removed, and mow here we have an item of $3,000,000 in the supplementaries for pro-
6204	COMMONS
Supply-Reconstruction and Supply
duction and transportation subsidies on steel and iron. Can the parliamentary assistant say how that icomes about?


George James McIlraith: There was an item of
85,000,000 in the main estimates which was prepared and brought forward before the new subsidy program was worked out. There is an additional $3,000,000 in the supplementaries, and the combined items represent a reduction of some $7,000,000 from the $15,000,000 voted last year.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is .the reduction caused by cutting off the subsidy approximately half way through the year?


George James McIlraith: No, that is not the explanation. It is the changed way of working out the whole program. The subsidies have to do with itwo things, production in the different steel mills on different basic products, and then there is the freight subvention to assist in moving one type of basic product to the mill where 'it can be processed, so that we shall have all the steel mills' producing capacity in use.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not quite understand why, when the production subsidy was cancelled, it should be necessary to bring in a supplementary of $3,000,000 for production and transportation subsidies. I do not want the parliamentary assistant to go back over what he said, but can he give a short explanation of why we have this supplementary estimate when actually the subsidy has been cut off?


George James McIlraith: I do not understand the iron, member when he says the subsidy has been cut off.


Edmund Davie Fulton: There was a press release the other day to the effect that the production subsidy on steel was being discontinued. We had a discussion of it in the house the other day on the reconstruction estimates, and the hon. member for Cape Breton South dealt with it at some length and criticized the timing of the removal of the subsidy. I later on asked the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply how much would be saved, and he said, approximately $2,500,000, and that the extra cost to the country as a whole from the increased price of steel would be around $17,000,000. So it was definitely established then that the production subsidy was discontinued, and I do not see why we now need $3,000,000 in the supplementaries for production and transportation subsidies.


George James McIlraith: I do not think the
earlier discussion went quite as far as the hon. member suggests. I't was not a cutting off at all. The old type of subsidy was dropped;

another system of subsidies was set up, ana there was a $5,000,000 item in the main estimates which was discussed at some length.
Mr. GILLI8: The hon. member for Kamloops is correct in what he says. The government recently granted an increase in the price of steel, which averaged $8.20 a ton, ranging from $5 on basic steel to $12 on processed steel. The government's excuse for permitting at that time an increase in the price of steel was that they would save $2,500,000 by way of subsidy. I pointed out, when I discussed the matter, that, on the basis of Steel production in 1947, the increase in price would mean an additional profit to the operating steel companies-Dosco, Stelco and Algoma- of approximately $9,000,000. I said I thought it was poor timing, because an increase in the price of basic steel would further aggravate the price situation throughout the country. The excuse given, according to the press release I saw, was that the government was saving $2,500,000 by way of subsidy.


George James McIlraith: The saving is more than that.


Clarence Gillis: But there is $5,000,000 in the main estimates and $3,000,000 in the supplementaries, so that takes away the excuse given that the government was saving $2,500,000.


George James McIlraith: We are saving slightly more.


Clarence Gillis: You are not saving anything, because you are dumping the load on the back of the consumer and further aggravating a bad1 price situation. I did not think you could get away from subsidies or pin them down to the $5,000,000 in the main estimates. I am not arguing against the subsidy, because in the part of the country from which I come they need a subsidy to drag their basic steel all the way into central Canada. But this does not make sense and does not follow through with the argument made by the minister in the house when he was justifying the price increase. The thing I am arguing against is that the government permitted the price increase in basic steel at the time they did, an increase averaging about $8.20 a ton, which was dumped on the back of the consumer. I do not think you are saving anything by way of subsidy, and the increase in the price of steel will certainly tend to aggravate the already bad price situation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
SSS. Trade publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad-further amount required, $116,000.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: This is another of these publicity items which

Supply-Trade and Commerce
seem to crop up every time you turn around. What about this $116,000 more which is required?


George James McIlraith: The purpose of this
vote is, by means of publicity and advertising, to assist in developing markets abroad for Canadian products and stimulating the interest of foreign producers in the Canadian market; as a means to this end, to arouse the interest of Canadian manufacturers, producers and importers in foreign business and acquaint them with the facilities for trade expansion offered by the Department of Trade and Commerce.
The item is broken down as between advertising in Canada and abroad, $100,000, and films, $16,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That does not explain anything. We know in general what it is for. Why do we need $116,000 additional now? What makes this come along at this time? It is very unusual to have these tremendous expenditures, especially at a time when we are told that there is a sellers' market, that there is a shortage of everything.


George James McIlraith: There is also one other thing, apart from its being a sellers' market. There are some additional requirements arising from the E.R.P. program, which puts additional burdens on this. That is one factor entering into it. There is this further explanation. Perhaps I should not have abbreviated my remarks. There were some delays in the receipt of advertising accounts of 1947-48 from overseas. There has been a substantial carryover of such accounts into 1948-49. The amount of the carryover is some $106,000; whereas the total amount in the main estimates for advertising is only $150,000. Therefore vie had to carry over this amount of $106,000, and we had only $150,000 in the main estimates.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Only $150,000 in the main estimates for what?


George James McIlraith: Advertising.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: According to item 446, there are some $303,000, if that is the right item.


George James McIlraith: Yes, but if the hon. member will take the details of the item he will find that advertising is $150,000.


Angus MacInnis: Will the parliamentary
assistant tell the committee what the difference between publicity and advertising is?


George James McIlraith: Yes, I think I can do that in a general way. The whole vote includes such things as salaries, allowances,
printing, stationery and office equipment, travelling expenses. Then there is this item: advertising their booklets, films, translation of material, clipping services and subscriptions, and printing Foreign Trade. The supplementary estimate applies only to the one detail of trade publicity and advertising, and that one detail is the advertising item of $100,000, which is added to the $16,000 for the film item.


Angus MacInnis: The item does not- say that. The item is exactly the same as the one in the main estimates.


George James McIlraith: The details of the item in the general estimates include trade publicity and advertising, but the supplementary includes only advertising and films, just the two parts of the main item.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Why increase advertising when goods are in short supply in Canada?


George James McIlraith: The main part of this is not to increase advertising. There is 'this difficulty about trying to maintain and increase trade. There is considerable dislocation, and we are trying to maintain markets at the present time. The item is not an increase as such; it is partly increased, but there is a substantial carryover.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Just as a protest against this easy granting of money for publicity, I move that the item be struck out. That will bring the matter to a head and we shall have it settled.


William Ross Macdonald: Is the committee ready for the question?


George James McIlraith: I did not expect a motion to be pressed at this moment. It is well to remember that about 35 per cent of our production goes into marketing abroad. It is a tremendous thing for this country. To say that we should not 'advertise and try to establish firmly our markets as one of the great trading nations is a pretty serious thing. The consequences of the external trade of Canada is greater than it is in most other countries. I do not want to get into an argument about it, but in a country like the United States the external trade relative to their total production of business is small. Here it is a very great item. I want to point that out before the hon. member presses his motion to wipe out the item.


Heber Harold Hatfield: The parliamentary assistant does not mean to assume that I have that feeling about our foreign trade. What I am complaining about is this large additional inadequately explained item. There is no

Supply-Trade and Commerce
danger of my motion carrying. It might toe a useful gesture when these amounts are toeing brought in next time.


Mr. ISNOR:: I am surprised at the hon. member suggesting that this amount be struck out entirely. I am surprised at his reference in regard to our expanding our business. It is the general practice, not only in a selling market, to continue to seek new markets. During world war I well known firms did that. Take Wolsey's Underwear. They continued to advertise in Canada from 1914 to 1918 without having a dollar's worth of goods to ship to this country. This is a splendid opportunity to expand am- export business, particularly when the Department of Trade and Commerce-


Heber Harold Hatfield: We have no goods to export.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: For every dollar we spend in Canada we depend upon foreign trade to give us thirty-five cents.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Advertise when we have some goods.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: It is all very well for the hon. member to deal with one particular item, namely potatoes, in which he is particularly interested. At times he has welcomed the export market as the only market to take care of his surplus supplies. He knows that as well as the rest of us.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I have great respect for the senior hon. member for Halifax, and I shall defer to his wishes. I move that the item be reduced to $20,000, so that I shall get his vote.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am sorry to disagree with the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario. It is essential to advertise Canadian goods that we have to export. It is so evident that even private firms like the House of Seagram have sent magnificent advertising to be published in periodicals of both the Americas. They described the lumbering industry, the mining industry and the fishing industry, all industries in which they are not interested, but they advertise Canadian produce. If that is done by private firms like the House of Seagram, with beautiful illustrations, I do not see why the Canadian government should not do it in the interest of the whole community.
Mr. MaoINNIS: Since the hon. member has mentioned the House of Seagram, may I say that in my opinion it is an outstanding disgrace that labour and materials and human energy should be expended at a time like this in advertising such as Seagram's do.


Jean-François Pouliot: There was no bottle on these advertisements. They were not advertising their own product. They were advertising the lumber industry and the fishing industry. They were doing that because there was not enough publicity by the government. They should be lauded instead of criticized for it. They have been doing very well.


Howard Charles Green: How much of that money is to be spent for publicity in Canada? The vote in the main estimates for advertising in Canada and abroad is $150,000, and there is an amount of $100,000 in the supplemeotaries.
Mr. MicILRAITH: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: That is $250,000 for advertising in Canada and abroad. How much is spent in Canada?
Mr. MoILRAITH: I am sorry I have not the breakdown as between Canada and abroad, but the carryover of grants from abroad is $106,000.


William Ross Macdonald: Mr. Macdonnell (Muskoka-Ontario) moves that vote 883 be reduced by $20,000. Those in favour of the amendment will say "yea".


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yea.


William Ross Macdonald: Those apposed will say "nay".


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Nay.


William Ross Macdonald: In my opinion the nays have it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
885. Canadian international trade fair, 1949, including authorit3r to refund from revenue deposits received for contracts for space, $500,000.
Mr. MaicNICOL: Does this refer to the 1949 international trade fair to be held in Toronto?
George James McIlraith: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Wheat and grain division'-
887. To hereby authorize the Canadian wheat board to buy rapeseed and sunflower seed from producers at a price of six cents per pound for the best grade f.o.b. local shipping point and at appropriate prices for other grades during the period commencing on August 1, 1948 and ending on July 31, 1949; to sell rapeseed and sunflower seed so purchased or the oil extracted therefrom as directed by the Minister of Trade and Commerce; to enter into such contracts as the said minister may direct for the carrying out of any of these operations, $1.
Percy Ellis Wright: This is a vote of $1. I presume the money necessary will 'be obtained from some other source.

Supply-Agriculture


George James McIlraith: The fund is set up and this provides the legal authority.


Mr. WEIGHT:: I wish to ask the parliamentary assistant some questions with regard to tire handling of rapeseed and rapeseed oil. The government .purchases it through the wheat board, and it is processed in the plant in Moose Jaw. I believe there is in Canada only one plant processing rapeseed into rapeseed oil. I do not know how much of this is exported. I should like to know the amount of raipeseed oil exported and who is exporting it. When we export coarse grains, equalization [DOT]certificates are issued by means of which any money made on the export of the grain is returned to the producers. What procedure is followed in the export of rapeseed oil? Is it all consumed in Canada? If not; if it is exported, I would point out that the price of rapeseed oil in the United States is muoh higher than in Canada, and the same procedure should be followed as with coarse grains. Where the rapeseed or rapeseed oil is exported there should be equalization certificates to enable the producers to get the benefit of the export price.


George James McIlraith: I am sorry I cannot give the information as to what is being exported, if any. I will look into the question and advise the hon. member.


Heber Harold Hatfield: What company in Moose Jaw is processing sunflower seed?


George James McIlraith: I am afraid I shall have to ask the hon. member's indulgence. I will get the information for him.


Percy Ellis Wright: When may we expect that information?


George James McIlraith: In about four days.


Percy Ellis Wright: I asked for certain contracts to be tabled. A month ago an order for return was issued, and so far it has not been complied with. I am interested in this because our people a^e growing rapeseed in western Canada.


George James McIlraith: This morning when the hon. member raised a question about his order for return I did not realize that it was one pertaining to our department. I had been under the impression that all orders for return in our department had been completed and forwarded. I have not had an opportunity to look into the point today, but I will get speedy action on it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
88.9. To reimburse the Canadian Commercial Corporation for expenses incurred in purchasing materials, supplies and equipment, etc., on behalf of the Department of National Defence under chapter 54, statutes of 1947, in the amount of $7,779.23, the balance owing for services rendered in the fiscal year 1947-48, and for the fiscal year 1948-49-further amount required, $87,770.23.
Jean-François Pouliot: Is the Canadian Commercial Corporation in charge of ERP in Canada?


George James McIlraith: No.
Item igreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Science service-
678. Plant protection-further amount required, $28,010.


Heber Harold Hatfield: What is this extra amount for?


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member will find the details on page 32 of the supplementary estimates: salaries, permanent, $210; temporary assistance, $20,800; total salaries, $21,010; printing, stationery and office equipment, $7,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-*
6'89. To provide for assistance to the province of Nova Scotia in the removal of aged apple trees and of least desirable varieties in Nova Scotia under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council, $500,000.
Percy Ellis Wright: How is this money expended by the dominion government-in co-operation with the department of agriculture of Nova Scotia? Are there any grants by the Nova Scotia government corresponding with this grant by the dominion?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. It is expended through an arrangement we have with the Department of Agriculture in Nova Scotia. They are putting up a comparable amount in the pulling out of trees and regrafting on old trees to get new varieties.


Percy Ellis Wright: Is the supervision carried on by the department of agriculture in the province or by the dominion?


James Garfield Gardiner: The work is actually done by the province.


Heber Harold Hatfield: How much was spent last year?


James Garfield Gardiner: This is a new arrangement entered into this year.


Heber Harold Hatfield: It has been going on for two or three years.


James Garfield Gardiner: Not this arrangement. This is a new arrangement entered into this year with the government of Nova Scotia, and
Supply-Agriculture

it is to carry on for four or five years. Under the arrangement that we had for the handling of apples in Nova Scotia during the war period, we have been carrying on, on a smaller scale. I have not the figure spent last year but it was smaller.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
690.	Amount required to recoup the agricultural prices support account to cover the net operating loss of the agricultural prices support board during the fiscal year 1947-48, $1,061,353.30.
Percy Ellis Wright: On what products is this money spent by the agricultural prices support board?


James Garfield Gardiner: A considerable amount of it was spent on potatoes and some in connection with apples. Most of it was spent on potatoes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
691.	Freight assistance on western feed grains, including outstanding claims under the feed grain payment policy-further amount required, $13,000,000.
George Hugh Castleden: What amounts have already been passed on with regard to freight assistance to feed grain from the west? A supplementary item of $6,000,000 went through about the time of the easier recess. I think that was to be expended as directed by order in council. Then in the regular estimates something like $7,750,000 went through. I suppose that was an item including freight assistance on western feed grain. How much of this is estimated to be included and required for that purpose?


James Garfield Gardiner: The $7,000,000 in the regular estimates took care of the expenditures to August 1. At that time it had not been determined that the freight rate would be paid beyond July 31. The $7,000,000 in the regular estimates would take care of expenditures to August 1. This $13,000,000 is to take care of the remainder of the financial year, which would make a total expenditure of about $20,000,000.


George Hugh Castleden: What portion of this item will be spent now in paying outstanding claims under the feed grain payment policy? This policy has caused considerable loss to the coarse grain growers of the west. They have received some payment back from the pools and from some of the line elevator companies. We have been trying to ascertain here for a couple of weeks whether or not the government intended or had authorized the

payment of any sum direct to the farmers from the government. I should like to know how much of this item would be included in that. I should also like to know, if possible, whether any payment has as yet been authorized.


James Garfield Gardiner: The amount of payment under the arrangements that have been discussed in connection with oats and barley has not yet been determined. I am not absolutely certain that the payment would come out of this particular vote. I understand that there is the possibility that it may come out of amounts which are under the wheat board. But the present payments up to the moment have amounted to as high as sixteen and a half cents a bushel on barley. I think the highest payment that has been made on oats is thirteen cents a bushel. That has been made by the line elevator companies and pool organizations in the west, I think the pool payment on barley was sixteen cents and thirteen cents on oats. The suggestion is that there should be an adjustment beyond that, which has not yet been determined and which cannot be finally determined until wye have all the information before us.


George Hugh Castleden: I think the minister will agree that the people who really cleaned up in this item w'ere the feed companies who bought grain at a lower price prior to October 21, and were able to take advantage of the situation and increase prices to those to whom they sold this feed grain. Have the feed companies who made the big clean-up been taxed in any special way in order to reimburse the farmers, or is this to be taken out of the Canadian public?


James Garfield Gardiner: Of course most of the feed companies that are concerned are in the eastern part of Canada. I do not know that there is any evidence to indicate that many of them made a big clean-up in connection with the sale of this grain. There may be the occasional feed merchant who was fortunate enough to have some of the grain at the close on October 21 and who sold it afterwards. But I do not think, under the circumstances existing, there would be any considerable number of them, because the grain was being moved just about at the same rate as it was being fed. It was going in and going out day by day to most of these feed merchants. A few of them may have taken advantage of the circumstances, but there is not any evidence that any great number of them did so, or that any considerable amount of grain was involved.

Supply-Agriculture


George Hugh Castleden: The minister knows
that, prior to October 21, in the western provinces the demand at every elevator point was for the farmers to deliver their coarse grain and get it in early, because there was a shortage of feed grain across Canada at that time. Some 39,000,000 bushels were delivered prior to October 21; that is, the statistics would indicate that. It was on that amount that the farmer took a loss.


James Garfield Gardiner: No, he has not taken any loss.


George Hugh Castleden: He lost as compared with the farmer who held on and delivered the feed grain at the time when the price had risen, I would say an average of about thirty-five cents on barley and about twenty-eight on oats.


James Garfield Gardiner: It averages about nineteen cents on oats, and about twenty-six cents on barley; that is the difference in the price. But he has not yet taken a loss on it; he is being paid.	[DOT]


George Hugh Castleden: Who is he being paid by? He is being paid partly by the elevator companies and grain companies and partly by the federal government. It seems to me that this procedure amounts to about the same thing as guaranteeing the profits that were made in the grain trade through a sort of subsidy, which is in this case being paid to the farmer, since the farmer is not to take the loss. I think the farmer should get that payment, but I do not think it should come out' of the Canadian taxpayer.


James Garfield Gardiner: What actually happened was that the grain companies or the elevator companies took delivery of a certain number of bushels of grain before October 21. Up to October 21 they had sold approximately 40 per cent of it at the same price as that at which they had bought it, or on that basis, with a small profit or a reasonable profit. Then the other 60 per cent they sold after March 21 a* the higher price level. What the elevator companies have done is to take the unusual profit made on the 60 per cent and spread it over the whole 100 per cent, which means that, out of a difference of nineteen cents in the price before October 21 and the price after, they have been paid thirteen cents. That leaves owing six cents, which is just about the right proportion, about one-third, which it is claimed someone should take care of.
The argument they make is that the government encouraged the farmers to deliver the grain before October 21, knowing there was to be a change; that, as a result of that, the government should make some adjustment, and
they claim that adjustment is just as important and just as necessary as the ten cents a bushel which was paid by way of subsidy on the oats which came to the eastern farmer during that period and the fifteen cents a bushel on barley. It is said that, because the shipment was made to the eastern farmer, and a subsidy paid, there should be an adjustment to the amount of six cents on oats and a proportionate amount on barley in order to provide that there is no loss to the farmer or no material loss.


George Hugh Castleden: There was a loss to the person who purchased feed in the east, on that
39,000,000 bushels which were sold, or at least on 40 per cent of it.


James Garfield Gardiner: The greater part of it was sold before October 21 at the lower price.


George Hugh Castleden: That is right. But there was an increase in the cost of feed to the eastern farmer which led to a terrific increase in the cost of living, particularly in milk, cream, eggs, poultry products and meat.


James Garfield Gardiner: But there was an adjusted price on these products. The floor prices there were adjusted up to take care of the increase in grain, so that the person who fed in the eastern part of Ganada did not lose by it.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister just a moment ago made a point which intrigued me. I do not know just how he gets his figure of the average of the increase in price on oats and barley. I do not know whether he takes that as being the opening price on October 21, the average price over the first month, or the average price over the last six months. I do not know how he gets the particular figure he quoted a few moments ago, and I should like to know.


James Garfield Gardiner: I got it by talking to farmers all over Saskatchewan in the last month.


Percy Ellis Wright: Oh, no, you did not.


George Hugh Castleden: You gave the figures before you went west.


James Garfield Gardiner: I got the figure I am using from farmers in different parts of western Canada. I asked them how much they got for their oats before October 21, and they told me; then I asked how much they got for them after October 21, and they told me. The figure I am using is about the average.


Percy Ellis Wright: Does the minister not think there is a more accurate way of getting these figures than just going around asking farmers? The Winnipeg grain exchange has a record of the everyday prices for which the farmers must sell.
Supply-Agriculture


James Garfield Gardiner: Fortunately it works out at the same figure.


Percy Ellis Wright: It depends on the period over which you take it. Certainly it does not work out on the average for the month, and I doubt whether the figure quoted by the minister is even the average price for the period from October 21 to the present time, though it may be; I cannot dispute that. However, I was intrigued by the minister's suggestion that funds for any additional payment on oats and barley, for which there is no vote in these estimates, might be obtained from the wheat board. Surely the minister is not suggesting that the farmers will pay themselves out of funds held by the wheat board, in connection with these additional payments on coarse grains. If that is his suggestion I wish he would make it quite clear.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is not what I am suggesting at all. I am suggesting that it does not come under this item, that it is under trade and commerce.


Percy Ellis Wright: Then, if it does not come under this item I wish the minister would show me any item in our supplementary estimates which provides for this payment. People in western Canada are interested in whether or not they are to get it. If we have no item providing funds for that payment I do not see where you will get the money.


George Hugh Castleden: This very item states, "including outstanding claims under the feed grain payment policy," which would indicate that part of this $13,000,000 is to be used for the purpose of making payments to the farmers under the government's feed grain policy.


James Garfield Gardiner: If you are satisfied with that there is no need for questioning.


Percy Ellis Wright: I want to find out under what item in these estimates or any other estimates money is provided for a further payment on coarse grains.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am just speaking from information I have been given, and my information is that there is provision under which the money can be paid. It is not a matter to be taken to council by me, however, and this is not the proper place to discuss it.


Percy Ellis Wright: The Minister of Agriculture made a good many statements in western Canada in this connection, and surely he should know the item under which this money

is to be made available. He must have that information, or he should have had it before he made his statements.


Jean-François Pouliot: Will the minister tell us if there is still a feeds administrator and, if so, whether it is the same man who wrote his memoirs early this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am not sure about the memoirs. The feeds administrator, Mr. Davidson, has been transferred from our department to the wheat board and is operating there in connection with the administration or distribution1 of feed grain.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is not Mr. Davidson but the other fellow, who is with the prices board. He was looking after feeds; he was feeds director or feeds supervisor or feeds administrator. When controls went out he stayed in just the same and said he was writing his memoirs. He is a man from Montreal; I do not remember his name.


James Garfield Gardiner: He would be under the Department of Finance if he is with the iprices board.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister made the statement a while ago that the funds with which to make these payments on coarse grains might be obtained from moneys of the wheat board. I should like him to explain what funds the wheat board have, out of which these payments might be made, or What the minister was suggesting in that connection.


James Garfield Gardiner: I repeat that the subject my hon. friend is talking about does not come within my estimates at all and is not before the committee at the present time. I simply suggested it had been indicated to me from the minister in charge that there is a means of making these payments altogether apart from any funds in my estimates, and that is all I have to say. It is not in my estimates at all.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister cannot indicate what item in the estimates provides for this payment?


James Garfield Gardiner: No. As far as I know, it is not in my estimates.


Percy Ellis Wright: You have no information on it; you do not know whether or not money is being provided?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have good reason for believing it will be provided from some source, but I am not in a position to state what that source is.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister is a member of 'the cabinet, which is dealing with this question of coarse grains. I want to know what

Supply-Agriculture
item in these estimates is for the making of that payment. I believe the minister should have that information.


James Garfield Gardiner: Mr. Chairman, I submit this is not a subject to be discussed. If the hon. member wanted that information he should have asked for it when the trade and commerce estimates were before the .committee a Short time ago.


Percy Ellis Wright: There was no item of that department that I saw under which I could discuss this matter. The minister has made the statement in western Canada that these payments are to be made. Surely he must know the authority under which that will be done.


James Garfield Gardiner: The minister has not made the statement that the payments are to be made. The minister has made the statement that it has been recommended that payments should be made. That is a question which was answered a few moments ago, to the effect that a decision has not yet been reached by the government.


George Hugh Castleden: Did the minister not make a suggestion as to the amount that should be paid on oats and barley?


James Garfield Gardiner: I made exactly the same suggestion I made a few moments ago, that thirteen cents has been paid on oats and that the average difference would be about nineteen cents. There has been a payment of sixteen cents on barley and the average difference is around twenty-seven. The consideration that still has to be given concerns the differences of six cents and eleven cents.


Percy Ellis Wright: There is a difference
between the payments that have been made by different companies. One company, for instance, is prepared to make a payment of only one or two cents a bushel, while other companies are prepared to pay thirteen cents, others fifteen cents, and others, sixteen cents. Is it the intention of the government to average these sums; or if a farmer sold to an elevator company which was unable to make any payment, is he to take that loss? Just what is the answer?


James Garfield Gardiner: This does not come
under my estimates at all.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
692.	Production assistance on agricultural lime for soil amendment purposes, $60,000.
Heber Harold Hatfield: Is this assistance to the provincial governments through their own programs, or is this money paid direct?


James Garfield Gardiner: This item of $60,000 was not included in the main estimates because, when they were prepared, the provinces had not intimated that they would subsidize the production of agricultural lime in 1948-49. The provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and British Columbia have since advised that they are subsidizing production again this fiscal year and need a continuation of the dominion subsidy for the purpose. The object of promoting the production of agricultural lime is to provide a greater supply for farmers. In some of the provinces demand still exceeds the supply, and many farmers who should be using lime on their land are unable to get it. Subsidies paid on this account last year by provinces were as follows:
Nova Scotia	$26,833.74
New Brunswick	 15,744.83
Quebec	 7,011 ] 64
British Columbia	 8,076.04
The dominion repays the provinces one-half the amount paid by them for this purpose. Last year's payment was $56,000, and
we estimate $60,000 will be required this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Stanley Howard Knowles: The understanding was that we would adjourn for supper at seven o'clock. There are three or four hon. gentlemen who want to speak, and it is not fair to the Hansard reporters or to their amanuenses that we should go on.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That was the understanding, and I think it should be carried out. May I say to hon. members I believe that there are only about a dozen items. I do not mention this with the idea of changing what I have said about the hour's adjournment, but rather in the hope that I may be able to say to the deputy of the governor general that I believe nine o'clock would be a convenient time for hon. members of this house to attend at the other house if requested to do so. I understand that a communication has been received to that effect. If we met at eight o'clock I should hope that, before nine o'clock, we could conclude the few items that are left.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The Prime Minister's guess is as good as anyone's.


John Horne Blackmore: May I suggest to the Prime Minister that he had better not make it as early as nine o'clock.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I will suggest nine-thirty. Before the committee rises for the hour recess, I should like to reply to a question asked this morning by the hon. member for Stanstead as to whether any request
Supply-Agriculture

had come from the government of the United Kingdom for assistance in flying supplies to overcome the Berlin blockade. I was not in position to give an answer at that moment, because I had not had an opportunity of conferring with the ministers of other departments and could speak only with respect to my own office. I am now in position to give an answer to the committee.
An inquiry has been received through our high commissioner in London as to what stocks of concentrated dehydrated foodstuffs might be available in Canada to assist in supplying food to Berlin in the present circumstances. A reply has been sent to the effect that there are considerable stocks of such food which would be available for that purpose.
I understand that on Monday last Mr. Bevin, in informal conversation with the high commissioners in London, touched upon the question of the adequacy of present air transport facilities for supplying the civilian population in Berlin. No request has, however, been received from the United Kingdom government either for food stocks or air transport.
Progress reported.


PROROGATION OF PARLIAMENT
[Stage Direction]
MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL*S SECRETARY
James Horace King: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following letter:
Ottawa, June 25, 1948
Sir,
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Thibaudeau Rinfret, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today, 30th June, at 9.30 p.m. for the purpose of proroguing the present session of parliament.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
J. F. Delaute,
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.
At seven o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock. SUPPLY
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Golding in the chair.


DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
[Stage Direction]
Dairy products board-
693.	Purchase of creamery butter to support the market at minimum prices subject to tbe approval of the governor in council, $1,1X10,000.
fMr. Mackenzie King.]
Heber Harold Hatfield: Mr. Chairman, I am in favour of paying a subsidy to help in the movement .of agricultural products when the price is low, but I do not know when the price was low on butter. Will the minister explain this item?


Joseph William Burton: Before the minister replies I should like to refer to a question I asked him when his estimates were before the committee some time ago. He was not in a position then to give me the information I asked for. I now want to inform the minister that I personally inspected the Wolverine dam south of Humboldt; there is now water in the enclosure, and I have hopes that a prairie fire will not interfere with the structure in the next few years.


James Garfield Gardiner: The item before us has to do with the fact that there is a floor under butter. The floor is 58 cents. If we are required to buy butter at 58 cents, money will be required; that is the reason for this appropriation.


Heber Harold Hatfield: When has butter been down to the floor?


James Garfield Gardiner: It has not been down yet, but we thought it might be down some time in the year.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: So you have both floors and ceilings to guard against every contingency.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Subsidies should be
removed when there is a surplus of agricultural products. Butter must be away up near the ceiling now, and I hope it will not go below the ceiling.


Mr. WHITE (Middlesex East):: What I have to say, Mr. Chairman, has not altogether to do with the floor on butter, but many dairy farmers are today apprehensive of what may happen next winter. Some of them are afraid there may be another shortage of butter. In view of the fact that attempts were made last winter to have butter substitutes imported, and that we are exporting cheese, another dairy product, without too much hope of its ever being paid for, I am wondering whether it is good business to export cheese on credit and import a butter substitute made from vegetable oils from .the United States, to be paid for in United States dollars. Now is the time to do something before we experience another shortage of butter next winter. Let us not wait until next December, when it will be too late. This is the season When butter is produced in quantity, and I hope the minister will assure the dairymen and the consumers that things will be taken care of.

Supply-Veterans Afiairs


James Garfield Gardiner: It is the point that has been raised that makes it advisable to put a floor under butter. The floor of 58 cents will prevail throughout the year. In the past the price of butter has often dropped in the months of June, July and August. This year up until now the price has not dropped below 58 cents, but it -was thought wise to put a 58-cent floor under butter in order that the producer would not have to take an unusually low price as compared with what butter has been selling at recently and what it probably will sell at next winter. This enables the government to deal more effectively with the price of butter next winter, by taking action now. This amount of money is made available in order to purchase butter at 58 cents a pound if for any reason it goes down to that price.


Mr. MOORE:: Has the dairy products board purchased any butter yet?


James Garfield Gardiner: Not this year. Butter has not been down to 58 cents a pound; I have not been following the markets during the past two weeks, but I do not think that butter has been down to 58 cents a pound at any time during this year. If it goes down to 58 cents a pound we undertake here to buy that butter at 58 cents a pound or lower.


Harry Oliver White: I have
been speaking to some of the cheese factory men in my constituency and was informed that they were getting large quantities of milk which, during the winter months and the spring months, had been sent to the creameries. It is now flowing into the cheese factories because cheese pays more money than butter. Will that bring about a shortage of butter?


James Garfield Gardiner: No. Our experience up to the moment is that the production of cheese will be quite low, much lower than we had hoped it would be. No cheese has gone to Britain up to the present time; it has all been purchased on this market. We have a contract to ship 50,000,000 pounds of cheese to Britain. If we are to ship it we must ship it from now on, but we have not shipped any up to date.


Harry Oliver White: Will cheese be requisitioned?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am not in a position at the moment to say whether it will or not. It is a matter that will have to be considered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
53S. Departmental administration, $2,253,340.
Howard Charles Green: Several questions were asked when these estimates were last up for discus-[DOT]sion. Is the minister in a position to answer them this evening? I would also ask him to 5849-394
deal with the report of the special committee on veterans affairs, and tell us what has been done in respect to the different recommendations made by that committee.
Hon. MILTON F. GREGG (Minister of Veterans Affairs): When the main estimates were before the committee approximately a week ago quite a large number of questions were asked by lion, members and I undertook to bring forward answers as far as possible. These questions have been carefully studied. Since the material in the replies is voluminous I would ask the consent of the committee to piace the answers on Hansard:


William Henry Golding: Does the
committee agree?


Howard Charles Green: Is the minister going to read them?


Mr. GREGG:: They are very long. The hon. member for Nanaimo requested information as to the district offices and the regional offices of the department throughout Canada, and if I may I would place the answers on Hansard. Some hon. MEMBERS: Agreed.


Milton Fowler Gregg: The answers are as follows: Soldier Settlement and Veterans' Land Act Administrative offices Head office, Ottawa, Ontario District office, Vancouver, B.C.
Regional offices-
Victoria, B.C.
New Westminster, B.C.
Kelowna, B.C.
Kamloops. B.C.
Nelson, B.C.
District office, Edmonton, Alta.
Regional offices-
Edmonton, Alta.
Grande Prairie, Alta.
Calgary, Alta.
Dawson Creek. B.C.
Saint Paul, Alta.
Lethbridge, Alta.
Red Deer, Alta.
Peace River, Alta.
District office, Saskatoon, Sask.
Regional offices-
Saskatoon. Sask.
Prince Albert, Sask.
Regina, Sask.
Yorkton, Sask.
District Office, Winnipeg, Man.
Regional offices-
Winnipeg, Man.
Dauphin, Man.
Brandon, Man.
Port Arthur, Ont.
District office, Toronto, Ont.
Regional offices-
Toronto, Ont.
New Liskeard, Ont.
Dundas, Ont.
Sault Ste. Marie, Ont.
Sudbury, Ont.
Supply-Veterans Affairs

District office, London, Ont.
Regional offices-
London, Ont.
Guelph, Ont.
Windsor, Ont.
District office, Ottawa, Ont.
Regional offices-
Ottawa, Ont.
Kingston, Ont.
Hull, Que.
District office, Montreal, Que.
Regional offices-
Montreal, Que.
Sherbrooke, Que.
Quebec, Que.
Gaspe, Que.
Rimouski, Que.
Amos, Que.
District office, Saint John, N.B.
Regional officer-
Fredericton, N.B.
Moncton, N.B.
Kentvil'le, N.S.
Truro, N.S.
Charlottetown, P.E.I.
Sydney, N.S.
The hon. member for Trinity asked for information as to the number of student veterans who discontinued their university courses without graduating. The answer is as follows:
Since the inception of the university training program up to March 31, 1948, some 4,000 of the 53,000 university veterans have withdrawn at their own request.
A preliminary survey of the 32,000 who were enrolled in university in September, 1047, indicated that sixty-five would be unable financially to complete the academic year's work.
A further detailed study completed in March, 1948, showed that only twenty-five student veterans had been unable to complete the year's work for purely financial reasons.
On page 5433 of Hansard of June 18, 1948, in column 1, four questions were asked by the hon. member for Lethbridge relating to Mr. F. W. Connorton. In this regard the pension commission advise that no authentic information is available in the department records, but with relation to the approximately fifty remaining questions asked by the hon. member for Lethbridge on the same subject, I have as far as possible had my department work out 'he answers which I ask permission to place on Hansard.


William Henry Golding: Has the minister permission to place these answers on Hansard?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Milton Fowler Gregg: The answers are as follows:
Question:	1. Did Connorton undergo an appendix operation in the service in June, 1943?
Answer: Yes, an appendix operation was performed 29th June, 1943.

Q. 2. Was he given a local anaesthetic for the operation?
A. He was given a spinal anaesthetic for this operation.
Q. 3. Was the anaesthetic administered by a departmental medical interne?
A. The anaesthetic was administered by a surgeon lieutenant in the navy.
Q. 4, a, 6.	4. Was a needle inserted in Connorton's spine eight times before the anaesthetic was effective? 5. Did the man suffer excruciating pain in this anaesthetic operation? 6. Did the medical interne instruct the nursing sister and an orderly to "pin the man down"?
. A. There is nothing in the records either to substantiate or refute these questions.
Q. 7. Was the man fourteen days in bed after this appendix operation?
A. The operation was performed 29th June, and the .patient discharged to convalescence on the 8th July, 1943. He was not, therefore, kept in bed for fourteen days after the operation. The records show that the patient was admitted to hospital on the 24th June, 1943, but since he had a cold the operation was deferred until the 29th June.
Q. 8, 9, 10.	8. Did he complain of his back
being sore all that time, and did the departmental doctors inform him he would experience back trouble for about two months, when the condition would "clear up"? By the way, it is rather unusual after an appendix operation to wait for two months before the condition clears up. 9. Did they say this was the usual experience of men receiving spinal anaesthetics _ to localize an operation? 10. Was he given pills to relieve the pain in his back?
A. There is no evidence available on which to answer these questions,
Q. 11. Was the man bothered with prostate trouble after this operation, and was he given sulphanilamicle drugs, penicillin and electrotherapy treatment for this condition?
A. The first evidence of prostate trouble is in August, 1944, over one year after the appendix operation. He was treated by sulphadiazine and sodium salicylate. .Subsequently in January
1947.	there was another attack of prostate trouble, at which time electro-therapy treatment was prescribed. At this time he was already getting penicillin as part of the treatment in connection with a recent spinal operation.
Q. 12. Does the man claim that prostate trouble is still with him?
A. The records at Ottawa do not show any complaints about prostate trouble since January, 1947.
H. Second list of questions, page 5431. second column These questions also refer to a period during which the man was serving with the armed forces. Complete answers in detail are therefore not possible in all oases at this time.
Q. 1. After hospitalization, did Oonnoi'ton join the minesweeper Outard as stoker, November, 1943?
A. Connorton joined the Outard as a stoker, 2nd December, 1943.
Q. 2. Did he complain that his back was then still bothering him?
A. There is no record of any complaint about his back until the 31st March, 1944.

Supply-Veterans Affairs
Q. 3. Did he complain that his left leg also began to bother him when doing heavy lifting, the muscles becoming tired and locked?
A. There is no record of complaints on this subject at this time.
Q. 4. Does lie complain that his leg condition is still ndth him?
A. There is complaint of some weakness of the left leg in January, 1948.
Q. 5. Was he given a one-man board by Dr. Whitelaw in July, 1944, and x-rayed, and subsequently classed as A-l physically fit?
A. Dr. Whitelaw examined Connorton and made a "consultant's report" on the 10th January, 1945. In this report Connorton was pronounced fit for duty. X-rays were taken about this time.


Q. 6, 7, 8 -
[Stage Direction]
6.	Did he subsequently complain to another departmental doctor, a Dr. Prior, that his spine was still bothering him?
7.	Did Dr. Prior state that he would charge him with "malingering" if he complained again?
8.	Was he also examined by other departmental doctors at the Givenchy barracks. Victoria, B.C., and did they say there was nothing wrong with him?
A. There is no evidence available about these allegations.
C. Third list of questions, page 5432, column
1.	These questions refer to a period during which the man was serving with the armed forces. Complete answers in detail are therefore not possible in all cases at this time.
Q. 1. Was Connorton examined by Dr. Ross Robertson, neurosurgeon, Shaughnessy hospital, Vancouver, B.C., and did that physician allege the man had an immature spine?
A. Connorton was examined by Dr. Ross Robertson on the 9th November, 1945. No mention is made of an "immature spine" in this report.
Q. 2. Did Dr. Ross Robertson tell the man lie would need as remedial treatment a spinal fusion operation to knit the spine?
A. Dr. Ross Robertson recommended spinal fusion.
Q. 3. (page 5433, first column) Was Connorton given a spinal fusion operation on November 15, 1945?
A. Yes.	.
Q. 4. Did the man lose the use of his toes in the left leg as .a result of this operation?
A. No record.	_
Q. 5. Has subsequent remedial treatment for the toes proved ineffective?
A. Remedial treatment for weakness of the left leg has proved effective and on discharge from treatment 19th January, 1948, it was reported that there is no restriction of the movements of the left leg. This report states that the man has made good progress.
Q. 6. Was he subsequently examined in the Shaughnessy hospital, Vancouver.B.C., by the neurosurgeons. Doctors Boucher, Naden, Starr, Thompson and Black?
A. He was examined in Shaughnessy hospital by Dr. Black, and was .referred to Dr. Stanley, psychiatrist.
Q. 7. Did these neurosurgeons turn him over to Dr. Stanley, departmental psychiatrist, and did Dr. Stanley state that there was nothing wrong with the man except in his imagination?
A. Dr. Stanley examined Connorton on the 21st May, 1946, on reference by Dr. Black. There is no suggestion in Dr. Stanley's report that there was nothing wrong with the man except in his imagination.
Q. 8. Was the man then discharged from the Shaughnessy hospital without pension for his condition, and did he .accept employment as a fireman in the engine room of the C.P.R. steamer Princess Elaiue'!
A. He was discharged from Shaughnessy hospital to Gordon Head convalescent centre on the 18th June, 1946, and discharged from Gordon Head the 18th September, 1946. Pension, awarded 16th May, 1947, was made effective from the 1st June, 1946. Connorton went to work on tire C.P.R. Princess Elaine.
Q. 9. Was he compelled to give up this employment after two weeks on account of his back giving out?
A. The records state he worked for two months on the C.P.R. Princess Elaine.
D. List of questions on page 5433, column 1.
Q. 1. Was Connorton again admitted to Shaughnessy hospital on September 18, 1946, and subsequently given an exploratory operation by opening up the spine?
A. According to the records Connorton was admitted not the 18th September, 1946, but the 18th November, 1946. The subsequent operation was a .second spinal fusion.
Q. 2. Was he in consequence given a second spinal fusion operation? If so, when?
A. Yes. on the 8th January, 1947.
Q. 3. Has the man stated he cannot face the operating table again because of the suffering he has undergone during these two operations and because his powers of resistance are now undermined ?
A. There is no record of such a statement.
In that connection very serious charges were made against the psychiatric service of my department as follows:
1.	Question-Has a psychiatrist in such a position as, say psychiatrist to Shaughnessy hospital, power to destroy utterly a veteran's chance for pension by simply reporting "this man is definitely neurotic"?
Answer.-No, the psychiatrist is in no position to exert any such power.
The psychiatrist's sole function is to diagnose the present medical condition and to afford all medical treatment possible for it.
Under the Pension Act, the psychiatrist's report and all other available data is reviewed and on this basis, the degree to which the condition has been aggravated during service is assessed and determined.
2.	Question-Can a key psychiatrist free the commission from the responsibility of furnishing either the applicant or his representative with a summary of evidence?
Answer-Section 61 of the Pension Act reads as follows:	_
"Subject to departmental regulations, the following .persons may be permitted to inspect the records of the department and all material considered by the board of pension commissioners for Canada, the pension tribunal, the commission or an appeal board thereof, in disposing of ally application for pension-
Supply-Veterans Affairs
[Stage Direction]
(a) the applicant for pension concerned and such persons as may be employed by him to present a claim on his behalf before the commission or an appeal board thereof;"
The departmental regulations make all such information available to the persons mentioned above unless the imparting of such information would be contrary to the public interest or that the former member of the forces or his dependents would be prejudiced thereby. The decision as to whether .neuropsychiatric cases or any other cases have their records made available to them or not depends on whether good or harm *would come to the veteran by his obtaining this knowledge. If it is for his good these records are made available.
3.	Question-Does this arrangement give the psychiatrists a strangle-hold upon the medical profession?
Answer-From the answer to question 2, it will be seen that this is not so.
4(a) Question-In order for the psychiatrist to exercise over the veteran such fearful power as is indicated in questions 2 and 3, is it necessary merely for the psychiatrist to label the veteran a "psychotic"?
Answer-It will be seen from the answers to questions 2 and 3 that "such fearful power" is not exerted over the psychotic veteran.
4(b) Question-If a psychiatrist labels a man as having "emotional instability", will that fact also deprive the man of pension rights?
Answer-If a psychiatrist diagnoses a medical condition as being "emotional instability", this does not deprive a man of pension rights.
5.	Question-Do psychiatrists use what is called the pentothal test?
6.	Question-What is the nature of this test?
7.	Question-Do psychiatrists use what is called the truth serum test?
8.	Question-Is there any difference between the pentothal and the truth serum test?
9.	Question-If so, what?
Answer 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Either sodium pentothal or sodium amytal (intravenous barbiturates), sometimes spoken of "truth serums", are used occasionally as part of the psychiatric treatment, as injections to permit the subject to recall rapidly memories which he may have repressed and may be interfering with recovery; they permit him to talk more freely about his trouble than would be the case otherwise. In each instance the patient receives an explanation of w-hat will occur and he is never forced to submit against his will.
10.	Question-Does the patient under the truth serum test go into a sort of trance, a state somewhat resembling hypnosis?
Answer-(No.
11.	Question-While the patient is in that state, can the psychiatrist make the patient answer questions according to the way they are framed, thereby causing the patient to say almost anything he, the psychiatrist, may desire the patient to say?
12.	Question-Can the answers of the patient obtained in such a trance be used to defraud the veteran patient of his rights to pension and proper treatment?
Answer ll-d2

There is no trance. The psychiatrist cannot make the patient say anything he pleases.
13.	Question-Was this very technique employed against certain Hong Kong veterans so to deprive them? For instance, were Hong
TMr. Gregg.]
Kong men w'ho survived the terrible tortures and privations of Japanese prison camps told in their examinations that they were not suffering from those most harrowing experiences hut that they were suppressing childhood fantasies and feaTS?
Answer

No	treatment techniques were
ever employed against any veteran. No matter who the veteran may be and regardless of where he may have served, he is given the best treatment that can be obtained in Canada. Obviously if suppressed childhood fantasies and fears are playing a role in the illness of a Hong Kong veteran, then these things must be dealt with. Otherwise, he is not receiving good treatment. The stresses that he underwent as a prisoner are given major consideration.
14.	Question-Did Doctor J. P. S. Cathoart, While in office as a sort of official psychiatrist for the Department of Veterans Affairs, publish the following statement?
"Popular belief to the contrary, mental diseases are not common hazards of war even for men in the field. If a man is mentally sound on entering the army, navy or air force he runs no greater risk of having his faculties upset than if he continued in civilian life."
Did he declare the belief that wartime service brings mental upset is unfounded and arises from ignorance fostered by ill-hdvised propaganda ?
Answer-Dr. J. P. S. Oathcart, at that time (1940) chief neuropsyohiatrist for the Department of Pensions and National Health, was interviewed by a .reporter of the Ottawa Morning Journal and the statement quoted was published on April 18, 1940', as part of the interview'. Dr. Cathcart's chief intention in this interview was to point out that as a result of studies made of enlisted men in the Canadian army during the first great war and comparable figures .among the civilian population for a similar age group, there wras no increase of the incidence of mental disease under war conditions.
15.	Question-Did the Department of Veterans Affairs for a time base the treatment of veterans policy upon the principle laid down in that pronouncement, namely, that psychosis or neurosis was automatically a pre-enlistment disability ?
Answer-No statement wqs ever made to the effect that a psychosis or neurosis was automatically a pre-enlistment disability and accordingly no policy could be laid down along these lines. When these illnesses occurred, treatment was supplied according to the individual ease requirement.
16.	Question-If so, for how long a period and between what dates was this principle used as the basis for departmental treatment of veterans?
Answer-See answer to question 15.
17.	Question.-If not, when and by w-hat pronouncement was the principle and the policy announced in Cat-heart's statement changed?
Answer-Since the policy never existed, this question does not apply.
18.	Question-How many veterans' cases w-ere disposed of by the department on the basis of pre-enlistment neurotic or psychotic disability during the period throughout which the Cathoart principle was in use by the department ?

Supply-Veterans Affairs
Answer-This question is not applicable in view of the answers to questions 14, 15, 16 and 17, since the assumption is based on false premises.
In reply to statement made by Mr. J. H. Blackmore, as reported in House of Commons debates, June 18, 1948, page 5434, column 2.
1.	Statement-First, the evidence I have indicates too strongly thiat psychiatrists attached to the Canadian veterans affairs department are employed occasionally to deprive a deserving veteran of the financial reimbursement to which he is legally entitled.
Comment-This statement is unwarranted and entirely without foundation in fact. These physicians are employed for the single purpose of giving Canadian veterans every opportunity for recovery from psychiatric ailments.
It may at this time be pointed out that the professors of psychiatry from eight Canadian medical schools serve the treatment services of the Department of Veterans Affairs in some capacity. The leading psychiatrists in Canada are retained as part time consultants and the majority of those employed by the department are members of the American Psychiatric Association. When the hon. member from Lethbridge casts aspersions at D.V.A. psychiatrists, he therefore automatically includes the highest men in this profession in Canada. It is ridiculous for him to assume either that these physicians would allow their opinion to be purchased to the disadvantage of Canadian veterans or that the Department of Veterans Affairs would ever consider such a course of action, even if it were possible.
It cannot be stressed too strongly that the treatment services of the Department of Veterans Affairs exists for the sole purpose of assisting the veteran to the greatest degree possible in his physical and mental rehabilitation. There is no basis for any belief to thie contrary.
2.	Statement-Second, certain of these psychiatrists are of the type exemplified by General Brock Chisholm, a man who gave the definite impression that he was distinctly materialistic, if not crude, sordid or even sadistic in his outlook upon human life.
Comment-This is the personal view of the hon. member from Lethbridge regarding one psychiatrist and does not call for comments.
3.	Statement-And, third, such so-called psychiatrists, men who should be called rather pseudo-psychiatrists, are not to be named in the same breath with those noble psychiatric healers who in Britain, the United States, Australia and other lands are, with Christlike devotion to spiritual values, salvaging wounded souls stricken by the desecrating hand of war.
Comment-There is a great deal of evidence available in the department and elsewhere which shows that this statement is not true. The psychiatrists in this department and psychiatrists generally in Canada are held in high repute by leading psychiatrists the world over and this .includes opinions from those in Britain, the United States and Australia.
On the following day when tihe news of these charges was carried by the press I had, without solicitation or without any knowledge, a telegram from the president of the American Psychiatric Association in Topeka, Kansas, indicating a view on our services in 5849-395
Canada and the type of men engaged in that service. The telegram is as follows:
Accusations against Canadian psychiatrists in their treatment of veterans by a member of parliament are to be deplored because of extremely unfortunate effect of such misinformation. Duririg the war in my position as chief consultant in psychiatry for the surgeon-general of the United States army, I personally visited many hospitals for veterans in Canada and know first hand of the work. I am personally acquainted with many Canadian psychiatrists and voice the sentiment of our leaders in American psychiatry in expressing high esteem of and regard for them. In their efforts to provide treatment instead of pensions they are acting in accord with best medical and psychiatric principles. For your own information Canadian psychiatrists have the full support in their efforts of the nearly 5,000 psychiatrists in our mutual organization the American Psychiatric Association. I hope you will give the Canadian psychiatrists your full support.
The author of this telegram has given permission for it to be used.
In addition to the questions already answered relating to Mr. Connorton, the hon. member for Lethbridge asked certain other questions relating to V-86097, Walsh, Stanley, L. These questions appear on page 5433 of Hansard of June 18. I should like to submit the answers to these questions. They are as follows:
Mr. Walsh enlisted in May, 1944, and was discharged in March, 1946, after serving in Canada.
In July, 1944, two months after enlistment, he gave a history of having been involved in a car accident some four months previously, following which he was in hospital for two days; X-ray reports at that time were negative. He also gave a history of having incurred an injury to his back with pain in the dorsal area left Shoulder and arm shortly after enlistment, while engaged in physical training. He later gave a history of having been injured while playing football. Finally, on discharge, he complained of pain in the lower back and stated his back had become sore after he had slipped, in the shipwright's shop in Vancouver.
Careful investigation was carried out, which finally resulted in a diagnosis of spondylolisthesis. A small congenital defect was also found in the fifth lumbar and first sacral vertebrae.
In its decision on spondylolisthesis, the commission took cognizance of the opinions of leading orthopaedic specialists, who are in general agreement that this condition may arise from fracture of the articular processes of the lumbosacral joint, or from imperfect development of the laminae of the lowest lumbar vertebra. As there was no evidence of a fracture but definite evidence, supported by X-ray findings, of a congenital defect, the commission ruled-bilateral defective laminae of fifth lumbar vertebra with spondylolisthesis, pre-enlistment condition, aggravated three-fifths during service in Canada.
The opinions of two specialists, to which reference has been made above, are as follows:
Supply-Veterans Affairs
[Stage Direction]
Specialist's opinion

dated April 18, 1947
"If one excepts acute fracture dislocation, there is no case of spondylolisthesis which is 'acquired'.
These cases are either congenital defects in the isthmus or Iby the alternative theory, fractures occurring at birth. This defect is very frequently accompanied by other congenital anomalies. It is possible, however, to have displacement forward of the body, in cases with defects in the isthmus, as the result of trauma. Usually, however, the process seems gradual. I have not been able to observe any connection between the degree of displacement and the symptoms of which the patient complained.
Many of the men complaining most bitterly, showed merely the defects without displacement.
This condition -would appear much more prevalent than we at first believed. The improved X-ray technique now shows defects which would otherwise be missed. While the most common displacement is that of I.. V. on sacrum, the displacement may occur elsewhere. I have seen L. IV on L.V. several times.
In the cases with displacement of body L.V. on sacrum clinically, the prominent shelf of the upper end of the sacrum and the local hollow just above are characteristic. Also the approximation of rib margins to iliac crests." Specialist's opinion-dated July 31, 1947
"Most recent investigation indicates that the lesion leading up to spondylolisthesis is a separation of the neural arch probably caused by birth trauma. For this reason it is probably best to speak of the forward slipping as a congenital lesion. Pain usually occurs in periods of stress such as one would encounter in the army age period or in heavy work. A single relatively minor trauma may also start the syndrome of pain. True traumatic spondylolisthesis without any pre-existing bone lesion is extremely rare and is caused by a violent trauma, definite history of which will necessarily be readily available. So that a soldier may claim aggravation when he develops pain in the presence of spondylolisthesis if he can give authentic evidence of not having had pain previous to service."
'Having read the record of various remarks of the 'hon. member for Nanaimo, the hon. member for Lanark, the hon. member for Kamloops and the hon. member for Vancouver South, I find it necessary to explain the policy of the department with regard to the medical treatment of nonservice conditions. Firstly, the department does not charge a veteran 19 a day. The only-exception to that rule is where a veteran or any other citizen is taken ill in the vicinity of one of our hospitals, is admitted as an emergency case, and is able to pay.
Secondly, the $9 rate is charged when the department admits a person to hospital at the request and expense of another government, another federal department, or some other agency. This rate is subject to variation; it represents neither profit nor loss to the department. It is the department's average hospital patient-day cost as last computed,

and I believe that hon. members will find on inquiry that it closely approximates the cost of treatment obtained privately; that is ward [DOT]rate, plus extras, plus medical, surgical and special nurse services.
Thirdly, free treatment is provided to a veteran who is a pensioner or a war veterans allowance recipient, or who served in a theatre of actual war and who meets the means test. Such free treatment is provided under a recent amendment for chronic, as well as alcute conditions, except tuberculosis and mental disease, for which the province is responsible, alcoholism, and drug addiction. Even these conditions are not excepted in the case of a war veterans allowance recipient; 'he has complete coverage and no means test. Furthermore, if the veteran's income is less than $13 a month, an allowance of $5 a month for comforts and $8 worth of clothing may be supplied.
Fourthly, the hon. member for Nanaimo spoke of the personal welfare of the old soldier who comes into a hospital built for the express purpose of looking after him. These men pay something toward their quarters and rations. They feel they are paying their way; it is good for their morale, and my observation is that they like the arrangement. 'But they do not pay $9 a day; they pay $30 a month, and then only if their income is at least $43 a month and is not required for maintenance of dependents.
Finally, if hon. members wish more detail than I have given in this brief sketch, they can find it in our office consolidation of the treatment regulations or, if they prefer, any of my staff who are handling these matters from day to day would be glad to discuss it as fully as may be desired.
If it is the wish of the committee I should be glad bo submit treatment regulations at the hospitals on that point. I should like to place them on Hansard.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Milton Fowler Gregg: ments of treaty money are reported, but in no case have they been sufficiently Large to have any bearing on the award made to the Indian.
The hon. member for Nanaimo referred .to the status of our seamstresses. The department employs seamstresses throughout its several institutions, but these personnel occupy [DOT]temporary positions exempt from the Civil Service Act, which consequently are not found in the detail of classified positions. They are paid at the prevailing rate as advised by the Department of Labour for such employment in their respective areas. In the Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver areas they are paid $960 a year, elsewhere $756 a year. The department has under active consideration the propriety of a general upward revision of the compensation to this group of employees.
In the detail of items appearing on page 5486 of Hansard, the words "provisional lands" in line 2 of item 551 should be corrected to read "provincial lands".
As to the question asked just now by the hon. member for Vancouver South, I have the final report of the parliamentary committee on veterans affairs, and I will bring that forward to the attention of the government during the recess.


Howard Charles Green: Has any action been taken with regard to any of these recommendations? For example, there iwas a recommendation with regard to the size .of a small holding ini the Yukon. I think that change could be made by order in council and does not require legislation. There may be other recommendations that .could be made without amending legislation.


Milton Fowler Gregg: No action has been taken on the main recommendations, but in respect of the one mentioned by the hon. member just now, definite action is going forward during the next three weeks to see whether the Yukon situation cannot be solved under authority at present existing.


Howard Charles Green: Has any action been taken with regard to such recommendations as those in favour of former members of the Canadian Red Cross Society and the St. John Ambulance Brigade? The hon. member for Wentworth asked me to bring that up. The committee recommended that they be granted (a) if pensionable, eligibility for vocational training as provided for veterans, or equivalent educational training; and (b) a gratuity of fifteen dollars for every thirty days of service in an actual theatre of war. Has any action been taken on that recommendation, or is it possible to take action without amending legislation?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No action has been taken; but the items mentioned, as well as others in the recommendations, are being carefully studied with a view to finding out, before taking it up with the government, the point mentioned as to what method would be most appropriate if action is needed.


Howard Charles Green: There was also a recommendation that vocational training be made available for the men of the merchant navy. Is it possible for that to be done without an amending statute? I would suggest to the minister that the benefit be not restricted to vocational training. I know several young men who served in the merchant navy and who are attending university. I am afraid that the recommendation of the committee does not include the educational benefits. The minister will correct me if I am wrong on that point. I hope that when the recommendation is being considered the minister will see fit to give them, not only vocational training but also educational benefits. It is a most unfair situation when you have two young men in the same class at university, one of whom served with the merchant navy under fire, the other having served only in Canada, and the man in the merchant navy can get no help, whereas the man who served only in Canada gets an educational grant. I suggest that there is no justification for a situation of that kind.


Milton Fowler Gregg: As to the recommendation of the parliamentary committee, while these young men had had an opportunity for training in seamanship, evidence was brought before the committee which made it appear that the demand for work as seamen in civilian life was not as great as during the war, and the view of the committee was that something should be done to provide them with an opportunity for vocational training in other fields of activity. There was no recommendation as to university training. Incidentally, I believe there was little demand, but no recommendation was made. I have undertaken a study of vocational training possibilities in co-operation with the Department of Transport, which is also interested in it,


Howard Charles Green: One more question. There was a recommendation that the crops of Canadian overseas firefighters should be made eligible to receive the Canadian volunteer service medal and also that they be given the veterans preference in employment in the civil service. Certainly it is possible to give them that medal without further legislation, and I hope the minister will see that they get it. I suppose they could not get the benefit of the preference without legislation. The minister will tell me whether I am correct.

Supply-Prime Minister's Office


Mr. MUTCH:: Before the minister speaks, may I point out that the recommendation of the veterans committee was broader than has been indicated by press reports or by the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver South. The recommendation of the committee with respect to firefighters was to the effect that they should have granted to them the residue of those benefits which are accorded to veterans, which are still applicable, and special reference was made to the C.V.S.M. and to the civil service preference, because the delegation which appeared before us laid particular stress on that. In the case of the C.V.S.M., they pointed out that they had themselves served in uniform continuously on the job and as such are entitled to wear the medal, and it was pointed out that their families were embarrassed by unfortunate incidents arising out of the fact that they did not have the medal.
The committee was aware of the fact that the very nature of the order which created the medal did present difficulties in the granting of the medal, because it is a volunteer medal for service in the armed forces of the country. The committee felt, in view of the fact that it had been given to certain other groups, that they were justified in making the recommendation. They do not restrict the recommendation to these two classes, although they were specifically mentioned.


William Henry Golding: I have been asked to allow this item to stand, so that the Prime Minister may deal with his estimates.
Item stands.


GOVERNOR GENERAL AND LIEUTENANT GOVERNORS
[Stage Direction]
113. Office of the secretary to the governor general, including the salary of the secretary to the governor general at $7,600 additional to salary authorized by R.S.C. chap. 182, $111,468.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This item
relates to His Excellency the Governor General and lieutenant governors. It is statutory for the most part.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
316. Salaries of staff and other pay-list items, $93,972.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Jean-François Pouliot: No, Mr. Chairman; we cannot let this item pass like that tonight. This is the item for the Prime Minister's office. In the past there have been some little celebrations on the occasion of the departure of the Prime Minister for a trip overseas, when he was going to a conference. The members of the house wished him Godspeed, a safe return and things like that. That was all very nice, timely and appropriate with
regard to those minor things like a trip overseas, a trip to the continent, a trip to Paris, or a trip to San Francisco. Before Mr. King went to San Francisco, I remember that it was suggested that he should be the president of the united nations; but he was not interested. Since then, the Prime Minister has made the decision to leave the position of Prime Minister. Two years ago I suggested to him that he should do so, and I was his best friend when I told him that. When I said that it was not because I am an unfaithful follower. At times I may be misunderstood, but I am always faithful. It was during the post-war period and it was necessary for us to rebuild over the ruins of the war. I thought then that the best man for the job was a man of action like the present Minister of Trade and Commerce, and I suggested him. I had made no pledge. I was just as independent as I am now. But, as the Prime Minister himself had said, without any suggestion being made to him by anybody, that it was his own express desire to get out of the picture, I thought we must respect the desires of a gentleman who has had a most successful career in politics and who thinks he has been leader of the party long enough. My idea was just to concur in the wishes expressed personally and often by my chief.
I then made another suggestion. I said that the Prime Minister should drop the portfolio of external affairs. He was dissatisfied with his trip to Paris in the spring of 1946 or in the fall of 1946, I forget which.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Carried.


Jean-François Pouliot: I would ask my hon. friend to wait a little; and if I do not interest him I suggest that he go to sleep.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I have been waiting for a long time.


Jean-François Pouliot: When my hon. friend
interrupts me, I have the impression that he snores. It is a feeling that I understand quite well. I do not expect to keep anybody awake. But I leave it at that. These are matters of great importance; and they are of greater importance because tonight the alpha is the omega, meaning by that that tihe first letter of the alphabet is "Z"-omega in Greek. But my language will not be Greek; it will be easy to understand.


An hon. MEMBER:: It is still Greek.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will speak in my own plain English that puts the hon. member for Queens to sleep. Now that he is sleeping well-


Stanley Howard Knowles: You hope.
Supply-Prime Minister's Office


Jean-François Pouliot: I will go on with modern history.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Not for too long, I hope.


Jean-François Pouliot: I suggested also that the Prime Minister should drop the portfolio of external affairs, and I gave the reason why. He was dissatisfied with his trip to Europe. Whether it was in the spring or fall of 1946, I do not remember exactly; I know it was in 1946. He said that when he was in Europe he could not think of anything other than European affairs. That was a statement which surprised me greatly, because when I returned to Canada from England some years ago and saw over the hill the spire of St. Paul de la Croix in my constituency, I was moved to tears because I was coming back home. But impressions may be different. I understand that one may be taken up by the atmosphere of Europe, especially in certain circumstances, to the point of forgetting Canada. But I was greatly surprised.
There was something else, however. Now I remember that the Prime Minister landed in Canada on the day of the prorogation of the session in 1946; it was around August 30 or September 1. But my speech was made on August 28, 1946. I remember what was said by the Prime Minister on this occasion; and I remember the reports in the press. I told him that he should have resigned before his trip, because if he had not gone to Paris, and if someone else had gone in his stead, everyone would have said how unfortunate it was that Mr. King was not there, and that if he had been there he would have settled the question. That is an observation which I was not alone in making. It was made by all those whom I met around that time.
What happened? I represent a constituency of lower Quebec, but when I speak like this I speak respectfully and sincerely. I am sure the Prime Minister realized that such were my feelings, because as soon as he landed on Canadian soil he hastened to transfer the heavy burden of external affairs to the present minister, following the suggestion I made. It was not advice; it is not for me to give advice to my chief, but on my advice that he should drop that portfolio, he did so. He was relieved of a great burden, which was assumed by the present Secretary of State for External Affairs.
But, sir, there are other things. The Prime Minister is still the first minister, is still the president of the privy council, is still the big boss. I remember when I was first elected when I felt secure within the party because the party was doing nothing that was not sub-

mitted to and approved by the caucus. No policy was enunciated until it had been approved by the party rank and file. This gave a feeling of confidence. Then, as I have said before in the house, I had the comfort I feel when I go to sleep on the train. I rely upon the crew of the train. I do not think of the crew, but I go to bed and to sleep. Then I was trusting the party entirely, because it was consulting members of parliament who were responsible for the policy of the party.


George Hugh Castleden: What has this to do with the item?


Jean-François Pouliot: Those were the olden times. Perhaps the ministers were not all as bright as those we have now, but they were all stalwarts who had the old parliamentary tradition; men like George P. Graham, Ned Macdonald and others who were around the Prime Minister. Then the Prime Minister did nothing without consulting them, and always he was consulting the party. I knew then the decision of the party was the decision of the majority.
Since then, because of a change in government in 1930 and due to war conditions, things have been different. For eighteen years I have been miserable, and I do not want to be miserable for another eighteen years. I do not want my son to be miserable when he reaches his maj ority; and I do not want future generations to be miserable. I want responsible government.


Mr. BENTLEY:: You do not care about this generation ?


Jean-François Pouliot: Well, our days are past.


William Henry Golding: Order. We have before the committee at the moment an item which has to do with the salaries of staff and other pay fist items, amounting, to $93,972.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, sir. I regret very much to have to say this, but I have been waiting for eighteen years to do so. I do not want to be unpleasant, but I have a duty to perform and I intend to perform it, I am speaking of the relations that should exist between the Prime Minister and his supporters in the House of Commons.


William Henry Golding: Order. The salary of the Prime Minister is not included in this item, and I think we should keep to the item which is before the committee.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, sir, and I shall keep to the item. I have the greatest respect for the Chair, and I am not doing this to satisfy any rancour, because I have none, nor am I doing it to be disrespectful. I do it in the hope that the next prime minister will adopt a different attitude with regard to members of

Supply-Prime Minister's Office
parliament from what we have had for the last fifteen years. This is the connection between the item and what I am saying. I do not think there should be any acrobatics with respect to the position of Prime Minister. What is most important is not to remain in office but to have the confidence of members of parliament by consulting them, by giving them inspiration to fight for a definite program in the old manner, the manner of Laurier, of Ernest Lapointe, of George P. Graham, of Ned Macdonald, of Fielding and all the others I have known and fought under. It is time the Liberal party changed its attitude of worship of one man and returned to the old system of co-operation between all members of parliament.


William Henry Golding: Order. I must ask the hon. member to deal with the item before the committee. He is not dealing with it at all.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, this is a vote for the Prime Minister's office for the year ending March 31, 1949. Who will spend that money?


William Henry Golding: The Prime Minister's salary is statutory and not included in the item before the committee. This item just deals with the salaries of staff and other paylist items. The hon. member knows that speeches in committee must be strictly relevant to the item under consideration, and I hope the hon. gentleman will try to deal with the item.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, sir; and I shall satisfy you as to that. I want to know who will give instructions to the civil servants whose positions are mentioned here, until the end of the fiscal year. If the position of prime minister is statutory, all right.


William Henry Golding: The salary is statutory.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am not speaking of that.


William Henry Golding: I hope the hon. member will deal with this item.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, sir. The details of the item are shown on page 223 of the estimates. There is a special assistant to the Prime Minister, a secretary to the office of the Prime Minister,, a confidential officer, Prime Minister's office, a head clerk, principal clerks and so on. Who will give instructions as head of that branch of government, from the time of the Liberal convention-if it takes place- until the end of the fiscal year? I am quite in order in asking that question. It is most unpleasant for me to have to do so, but I asked the question yesterday and I want to know if
the gentleman who actually gives instructions to these civil servants enumerated at page 223 of the estimates will be the same gentleman who will give instructions until the end of the fiscal year, and if he will expect to have his name in nomination at the convention, or if he will withdraw it in order that all the other candidates may have an opportunity to run.
I am not going to insist upon it, sir, though I could say much more. I suffered in silence for eighteen years and compared what had happened in the past with what was happening now. I want to see the Liberal party as strong as it was before and I want my colleagues to be successful in the country. I should like to know if the Prime Minister will be a candidate at the next Liberal convention in Ottawa?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Chairman, I might perhaps say a word to my hon. friend. I am afraid I shall have to read his remarks carefully in Hansard to grasp what it is he is protesting against, and what it is he wishes me to do or not to do. The hon. member for Temiscouata and I have a very good understanding of each other, but I fail to comprehend tonight what it is he is so greatly disappointed about. I do not think anyone could be more conscious of his many limitations than I am When it comes to being able to satisfy the generous aspirations which so many of my fellow Liberals have had for myself. There is nothing I regret more than that it has not been possible to perform the duties expected of me from day to day, and at the same time see more of the members of the house personally, to do many things which have been left undone during the course of the years that I have held office. There is one thing that I am perfectly sure about, however; it is that I have never at any time, as far as I am aware, forsaken the doctrine of responsible government and attempted to set myself up as a dictator. At all times, I have sought to be guided by the counsel of the cabinet and by my following in the House of Commons, as well as by the opinion of the House of Commons generally as expressed from all sides.
I shall have no regret in my remaining days over not having had full consideration for those who have honoured me with the position that I hold as leader of my party, and who have entrusted me for over twenty-one years with the high office of Prime Minister of our country.
May I say just a word with regard to the office of Prime Minister. I am glad the hon. member brought up the matter; otherwise I should probably not have spoken at this time. I believe he is quite right when he says that
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the burden has been a little too heavy, and for permitting that perhaps no one is to blame more than myself. I have hesitated repeatedly to ask this house to enlarge the staff of the Prime Minister's office. I carried on through the war with the position of Secretary of State for External Affairs because I felt that at that time it (was better in every way that the two positions should continue to be combined. I have never regretted that course because I was and am sure it was the right one. Immediately after the war there were many questions that arose out of the war which still had to be dealt with and for a time I continued to hold that office as well as the office of Prime Minister. But I can assure my hon. friend and others that it was not through a desire to hold on to too many offices. I was anxious to prepare the way to be free of one office that I had held over so many years so as to retain, with more in the way of freedom, the office of prime minister.
As a matter of fact, if I had consulted my own personal wishes, in 1945 immediately after the election I would not have waited until the present to give up the leadership of my party. I would have given it up a year or two sooner than I am now proposing to do except that I gathered from my party, particularly from my followers in this house and the ministers around me, that they hoped I might continue to hold office still for some time. Indeed I can say to my hon. friend that I know of nothing of which I shall be prouder for the remainder of my life than the fact that if it were a question tonight as to whether I should continue on through the remainder of this parliament and through another general election I would be given by the members of my party in this house and in this country well nigh unanimous support toward that end.
I have felt that the time has come when someone else should take over the duties and the office of leader of my party and of Prime Minister. I feel that I have done my full duty and my part. For some time past I have made it quite clear that having received the leadership of my party from the party itself I intend to ask the party to allow me to return to its members the trust they placed in my hands, and which I shall have held for twenty-nine years when the convention takes place on August 5, 6 and 7. I shall still for a short time remain in the office of Prime Minister. When I will give up the office of Prime Minister will depend upon circumstances that may exist at the time of the convention as they may relate themselves to the immediate future. In addition to other things it will depend upon the wishes of whoever may be chosen to succeed me in the leadership
[Mr Mackenzie King.]
of the party and what may best suit his convenience. I have made it quite clear right along that while this would be the last session in which I would appear in this house as leader of the government, I did not mean to give up the leadership of the government the moment I gave up the leadership of the party.
Only a few weeks ago I made a statement in the presence of the press and many members of this house that it might be two or three months after the convention before I would be giving up the position of leader of the government. I mentioned one or two things that I had then in mind. The obligation with respect to retaining office is one that I owe to the crown. How long I shall continue to exercise it will, as I have said, depend upon circumstances which I shall have to consider carefully. These circumstances, at present unknown, will help to determine the advice I shall give the crown as to whom my successor should be, and as to the time at which the advice should be tendered. Much, of course, as I have said, will depend upon the wishes of whoever may be chosen as leader of the party at the convention, and upon conditions that may be existing in other parts of the world as well as in our own in relation to great matters of state consideration of which no Prime Minister dare shirk in times like the present. I wish to make it quite clear however that I shall not be appearing in this house as leader of the government at its next session.
Before leaving office there are one or two things I should like to say about the Prime Minister's office. I hope that in subsequent sessions for my successor, whoever he may be, more provision will be made than has been made in the past for the Prime Minister's office. If one looks at the estimates he will see that the staff of the Prime Minister's office is quite small. It is practically what it has been over many years. An explanation of that is that it has been and still is in large part associated with the office of the Secretary of State for External Affairs and the office of the President of the Privy Council. The duties and responsibilities of both those departments of government have grown tremendously within recent years. The Department of External Affairs has become one of the great departments of government and certainly demands all the time that a minister can give to it. The Prime Minister's office still has the advantage of close association with the Department of External Affairs in the matter of recruiting from that department a part of its staff. At the present time some members of my staff really belong to the Department of External Affairs, having

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been seconded to the Prime Minister's office.
I think that is a very desirable practice to have followed. But the Prime Minister's office should, I believe, be increasingly staffed with its own officials to a number which would be adequate. The same is true of drawing for assistance upon the office of the president of the privy council. That office I think has become one to which a minister of the crown might well give his whole time, regard being had to the extent to which the duties of the office have expanded in recent years, the number of questions that have to be considered, the many subjects, both of national and international concern, that have to be taken up by the cabinet as a whole, to say nothing of the business of the cabinet as it has to be arranged and carried on from day to day.
There is one other thought I should like to express. I can make this observation now when possibly it might have been misunderstood before. I hope that subsequent parliaments will make provision for an official residence for the Prime Minister. Ours is one of the few countries in the world where that has not been done. Personally I have been fortunate in having had Laurier House left to me by Lady Laurier. I was left the house itself, but all its contents were, under Lady Laurier's will, left to her nephews and nieces, as one would expect would be the case. Had it not been for the generosity of friends who helped me to furnish Laurier House, I doubt very much whether I would have been in a position to occupy it. However, through the generosity of some friends, and, in particular, I would mention the late Hon. Peter Larkin, I was fortunate enough to be able to have my house furnished in a way which lends dignity to one's home, and1 particularly the home of one who is occupying high office.
I hope through a kind Providence I may be spared for some years to enjoy Laurier House as my home. I should, however, be very sorry indeed if my successor in the office of Prime Minister were to find himself in the position in which I have been right along of being obliged, in addition to paying taxes on his income, his salaries and the like, to have to pay taxes on the house in wffiich he is living and1 which is regarded by most people as an official residence and be obliged to provide the lighting and the heating, as well as the necessary services, and to have in addition to look after maintenance and repairs.
There is an impression among a great many people in this country that Laurier House has been maintained by the state. It has 'been maintained by myself personally out of my own pocket and my own income, and if I 5849-396
have not been able to invite my hon. friend and some members who are about me at the moment and many others as often as I should like to have done and extended as much in the way of hospitality as I should like to have done, that is one of the reasons.
I hope that my successor, whoever he may be, and subsequent gentlemen holding the office of Prime Minister will not be embarrassed in that way. The obligations are very great indeed upon the individual who holds the high office of Prime Minister of his country. The state should seek to make the leader of its government independent of considerations of the kind, tlhat he may give his whole time and thought and energy to the discharge of his public duties in the largest possible way.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
PRIVY COUNCIL OFFICE Federal district commission-
809. To authorize the establishment of a special account in the consolidated revenue fund, to be known as the national capital fund, consisting of such amounts as may be appropriated by parliament for the purpose out of which the Minister of Finance may from time to time, on the recommendation of the president of His Majesty's privy council for Canada, pay to the federal district commission amounts to be expended by the federal district commission with the approval of the governor in council for the construction, operation and maintenance of works or projects within the national capital district in keeping with an approved general plan for the improvement and development of the national capital and not in the nature of ordinary municipal improvements'-amount required for the fund, to be effective July 1, 1948, $2,500,000.
Mr. McLlIRE: I would ask the Prime Minister with reference to this item of 82,500,000 for the national capital fund, whether he proposes to implement his suggestion of a year ago and appoint a man from each of tlhe provinces of Canada to the national capital planning committee.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am glad my hon. friend has asked that question. The answer is yes. The reason no appointments have been made up to the present is that it was thought advisable to wait until the time wthen parliament had expressed its intention to carry out the larger essential developments, the first of which was mentioned the other day.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
582. Departmental administration, $2,253,340.
Mr. BLACKM'ORE: Inasmuch as the hour is so late in respect of both the evening and the session I would be very happy to be
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[Stage Direction]
freed from the obligation of speaking tonight at all. I have endeavoured several times previously to find an opportunity to present to the house and the country the things which I feel I ought to present but have been unable to do so. Before saying what I feel I ought to say, I should like to assure the Minister of Veterans Affairs that I have no ill will toward him. I have only sympathy for him in the responsibility which he has been called upon to assume, because I believe he has an exceedingly difficult road to travel.
I should like to recall to the house the fact that the other day I asked some questions about a veteran, Thomas Harvey. The reasons for my intense interest in that case were such that I think every member of the house would wish to know about them.
On June 14, 1948, I received a letter which I am going to read rapidly to save the time of the house, but it will appear on Hansard, so that members can read it. It is as follows: Thomas Harvey Ward A, Ste. Anne's Hospital,
Ste. Anne de Bellevue, P.Q.
There is no date on the letter, but the envelope is postmarked June 14, 1948. I have the envelope here, which can be seen. The letter reads:
Dear Mr. Blackmore:
Having read in the Montreal Star, June 9, of your speech on behalf of two Vancouver veterans, I would like to enlist your help in my case.
I am afraid to write to anyone in the government because I am afraid of being locked up in solitary confinement where I had been held incommunicado these last six weeks. I do not relish another term.
A criminal is at least given a chance to plead his case before a judge, but I was taken by force from St. Hyacinthe and locked up here at Ste. Anne's, for nothing.
I understand that this is supposed to be a free country. I don't think so. I don't like Ste. Anne's as I have always been abused here, and I want my release so as I can enter a hospital Where I know I will be treated according to law. I am entitled to sign out of hospital but I am refused the privilege.
I am a prisoner here and not receiving treatment. I am refused the privilege of seeing my family. I cannot get a pass like other patients and I am taking a big chance writing this letter to you. If I am caught I will be taken to the cell again so I am appealing to you to stand by me and give me protection.
When I was taken by force from St. Hya-einthe I was not even given a chance to bring my belongings and I left a hundred dollar radio there. The patient I left it in charge of has sold it. Now I am told it is too had but nothing can be done about it.

Please get me out of this place. I am depending on you to get me released from here, as my health will never improve as long as I am unhappy, and held against my will.
Thanking you kindly, I remain Yours truly,
Thomas Harvey.
P.S.-On receipt of this letter please send me a telegram collect, saying "Am investigating your ease."
When I receive your telegram I will feel safe as they dare not abuse me knowing you are on the job, and I will be able to relax. Until I hear from you I will be in fear, so please do not fail me. I will pay the telegram.
T. Harvey, D-76502.
I wonder if there is an hon. member in this house who, upon receipt of a letter such as that, would not feel he had been called upon to assume a responsibility. I examined the letter with great care, as did also one or two of my friends, and as we could see no indication of insanity in the man I felt that the wise thing was to do what he had asked me to do. So I sent him this telegram the following day:
Ottawa, June 15, 1948
Mr. Thomas Harvey
Ward "A" Ste. Anne's Hospital
Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Quebec
Am investigating your case.
J. H. Blackmore.
That is what the man had requested. The telegram had not reached him by the afternoon of the 15th. We received word from the Canadian National, by which we had sent the telegram, that it had not been delivered. This was the word which was given us:
C.N.R. (John Larouche speaking) phoned June 15 3.45 p.m. approx, that the telegram to Mr. Harvey was undelivered because Mr. H. has been discharged from the hospital. Last address was Ford Hotel, Montreal, enroute to Ottawa. 47 cents toll charges.
Taken by D.M.
I am putting in these little details to show hon. members how real this thing is and what a difficulty it puts me in. I did not know what to make of that situation, but we had the Canadian National Telegraphs look into the matter as far as they possibly could, and I received this word on the 16th:
Ryd re Thomas Harvey ward A Ste Anne Hospital was discharged June 14 as advised by information bureau. Names are Mr. Brule and Mrs. Taylor.
That puts me in a difficult position. I had never been in a situation of that sort, and I did not know just what to do.
Harvey came to my room on June 16. In accordance with the information that was given

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in the telegram that he was on his way to Ottawa, he came to my room on June 16.
I treated him as I would have treated any Canadian. I met him just as a fellow Canadian. I took him to the House of Com- ' mons reading room, obtained permission for him to sit while he wrote a deposition, feeling that this was the first thing that the House of Commons and the country would desire me to do. I took Walter H. Kirchner, who had been visiting with me, down and introduced him to Harvey to make Harvey feel more at ease. I also desired to have the benefit of Mr. Ivirchner's wide experience to aid me in appraising this unusual case.
Harvey finished his deposition, and we had it typewritten on June 17. On that date Harvey signed the statement in the presence of witnesses. I think it would be fitting if I should give the committee a little memo on this point. These are the words from the memo made by Mr. Kirchner, who had a wide experience with soldiers and kept a careful record of his relations with this gentleman. These words were written on June 16, 1948:
I met Thos. Harvey for the first time in the reading room of the House of Commons. He had been unshaven for two days, having hitchhiked from Montreal.
He related how he had got out of Ste. Anne's after being held there "incommunicado". He was compiling a statement of the reason for his present plight. He looked like a man who had undergone great strain and was quite "washed up". Stated he had been discharged from Ste. Anne's without a cent of money.
June 17: He stayed at the mission in Ottawa. Had shaved, a good night's sleep, bath and food. Would only accept enough money to pay for a few incidentals, meals, etc.
Friday, June 18: Harvey showed me a railway warrant given him by a C.P.C. doctor in the Daly building providing him with transportation to Montreal. He stated the D.V.A. informed him they had sent a cheque for $150 which was due him to his Montreal address but gave him no funds here.
He said he wanted to get to Montreal so as to bring back his documents in order to complete the statement of his case. I told him it would be O.K. if he reported back here (Ottawa) on Tuesday, June 22.
Hon. members will understand why I became more concerned about June 23 or June 24 because this gentleman did not return. I think it will be quite easy for all hon. members to realize just why I should have been greatly concerned and what was the anxiety of my mind. I desire to ask several questions, not because I expect the minister to be able to answer them, but in order that hon. members and the people of Canada should be able to
get what I consider to be the salient points of this case clear in their mind:
1.	Was Thomas P. Harvey regimental number D76502, pension No. 550593 classified as A-l when he enlisted in September, 1939, and classified as category E upon his discharge in 1940, though not even x-rayed, and though being told that there was no need of treatment?
1.	(a) When veteran Harvey was discharged
was he left several years without means of supporting his family with apparently serious consequences as regards his wife?	_
2.	Was veteran Harvey refused medical treatment on grounds there was nothing wrong with him?
3.	Did he then go to a civilian hospital and receive the decision that he had T.B.?
4.	When he took back to the D.V.A. civilian proof of his T.B. was he told that because he had been out of the service more than a year he was ineligible for treatment?
5.	Did veteran Harvey try to work but fail to carry on because of his pain?
6.	Was he consistently refused pension?
7.	Did he finally in a sort of desperation resort to a measure of violence in Ottawa in 1944 to draw attention to his plight?
8.	Was he then admitted to the Veterans Pavilion, and was this the first time he had been admitted to a departmental hospital in four years?
9.	Was he then removed under escort, to Ste. Anne's, Ste. Anne de Bellevue, P.Q.?
10.	Does he state that in that institution he received harsh treatment, including being beaten into insensibility and thrown into a locked ward among demented veterans?
11.	Was he later let out from that institution upon promising not to fight his_ pension claim or to write to members of parliament.
12.	Does he declare that he was then haemorrhaging and that his condition was growing worse but that the D.V.A. still refused to treat him?
13.	Did he then go to Ste. Agathe public sanatorium, and in May, 1946 have seven ribs removed to collapse his lung?
14.	Did word then come that the pension claim that he had been fighting six years had been finally granted?
15.	Was he about that time transferred from the public sanatorium to Lachine veterans hospital?
16.	From that hospital was he discharged in July, 1946?
17.	Did he, while doing a light job as orderly at the Veterans Pavilion, suffer because his affliction became active in January, 1948?
18.	With a letter from Doctor Brown of the veterans pavilion did he apply for treatment at D.V.A. Montreal?
19.	Was he told he must go to Ste. Anne's?
20.	Remembering the treatment he had received at that institution, did he refuse to go there and request to go to the Queen Mary or St. Hyacinthe hospital, or to Sunnybrook?
21.	Did he then enter St. Hyacinthe in February, 1948 and did he make fine progress in that institution?
22.	Was he taken forcibly in May from St. Hyacinthe to Ste. Anne's without even being permitted to take his personal belongings?
23.	Was he detained in Ste. Anne's for weeks incommunicado with treatment at least unfit for a veteran?
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[Stage Direction]
24.	Did veteran Harvey receive discharge on June 14?
25.	Did he then go to see Mr. Haig, district administrator and Mr. Perrault, without much encouragement? Did he then see Mr. Binns of the welfare department, and did that official tell the veteran that he had a persecution complex and forcibly eject him from his office?
I think all hon. members can realize readily that if these questions have to be answered by yes, or any considerable number of them, then the Minister of Veterans Affairs has a difficult task ahead to clean up a most undesirable state of affairs in his department.
-I shall read the deposition of Mr. Harvey, so that the committee can have before them the evidence that I had, and they can weigh it and determine what ought to ibe done:
The Union Mission, 35 Waller Street, Ottawa, Ontario, June 17, 1948
Statement by Thomas P. Harvey, Regimental No. D 76502, Pension No. 550593.
1.	September 28, 1939, I enlisted with the R.M.R. About a month after, while doing P.T. exercises was taken with severe pains in m,v chest; reported right away and sent home for a -couple of days to recuperate. On returning to the regiment after my couple of days were up I reported to the M.O. that my pains were still there. I was then strapped up with adhesive tape to relieve the pain and put on light duty I was transferred from the R.M.R. to the Third Infantry Brigade Headquarters as mess steward, and went overseas in November, 1939, with my chest still taped on account of pain.
2.	My duty as mess steward started at 5 -a.m., getting fires lit and preparing breakfast, and
1	finished about 8 p.m. at night, stood on call for whatever was needed by the officers such as tea and toast brought to their rooms, before retiring for night; and often at 1 p.m. and
2	p.m. at night had to leave my bed and open the door and make something to eat for officials returning from pass.
3.	I was kept busy from morning until night and for four montlis I never had a day off. My health was failing, and I knew I could not carry on much longer. I asked the mess president to send a car and take me to a M.O. as there was none at our headquarters, which was a golf club taken over by the army. The mess president refused to let me off to visit the M.O. and told me I was swinging the lead. My pains were getting worse so I asked Major General Price Who was in charge of our brigade, and a resident of the golf club if it were possible for a private to lay charges of abuse against an officer. He told me, "Yes", so I had the president of the mess. Captain Haljerston, paraded before Major General Price, and charged him with refusing to relieve me of duty while sick, and refusing to obtain medical aid for me, Major General Price said he would look into these charges and see what could be done.
4.	About three days after the laying of my charges I had just finished serving dinner when the mess president called a meeting of all batmen cooks and myself, to tell us the was sorry we had been kept so long without leave, and he was going to arrange for relief to come from the regiment barracks in the future. As spokes-

man for all mess personnel I told him it was about time and that it should have been done long ago.
5.	He then told me that because I paraded him, he was kicking me out of my job and taking me back to his own unit where he would make life miserable for me for daring to parade him.
G. I told him that if he was going to use his rank to get even with me that he was no officer but a rat, and if he was any kind of a man to take off his tunic and fight me man to man. This was told to him in the presence of 14 staff officers, including Major General Price and Major General Pearkes, V.C. I wanted to come to blows with him on account of the abuse I had received from him, and I would have if the Padre had not intervened. No charges were laid against me, but I was relieved of duty and sent to No. 1 convalescent depot where I was examined by doctors, and in a couple of weeks I was on my way back to Canada, with the pains in my chest bothering me still.
7.	On June 10, 1940, a couple of days after I arrived, I was asked to sign my discharge. I asked if I was going to receive treatment for my pains. I was told no, so I refused to sign unless I was given- medical treatment. I was told I would -sign or stay in detention until I did. Seeing I had no choice I signed under protest. I had to turn in every stitch of uniform and was handed $35 for clothes, plus $7.83 pay due to me. I was not even N-rayed on discharge and, although they told me there was no need for treatment, I was discharged, category E, the lowest possible medical category- after enlisting as A.l.
8.	By the time I had bought clothes I had only a few dollars left and, after paying my own transportation home, I had $4, to feed a wife and child, and within a couple of weeks my wife was in hospital with another child.
9.	If it was not for Mrs. Fulford of Broek-ville, I do not know what would have happened as I was unable to work and had no money, and when I told Mrs. Fulford of my condition, she sent us groceries for a month.
10.	I tried various jobs, hut could not stick them on account of the pains in my chest.
I applied to D.V.A. for treatment. I was refused on grounds there is nothing wrong with me. This kept up for more than a year. I went to civilian hospital -and was told I am T.B.
I went back to D.V.A. with proof of my sickness, and was told that as I have been out of the service more than a year, I am not eligible for treatment, so I returned to civilian hospital and started writing to different members of parliament about my case, and all this time my wife and children have been destitute. She finally gets tired of waiting for my pension claim to come through and ieaves me to live with someone else who can support her.
11.	In 1944 I came to Ottawa to try and get some satisfaction. I was so sick and tired of the way the D.V.A. had treated me and caused my home to be broken, that I decided to do something to bring attention to my case. I broke into the chamber of the House of Commons to try to plead my case. I started to address the House hut I never got much said before I was escorted out, and taken to Ian Mackenzie's office.
12.	After explaining my case to Mr. Mackenzie I was sent to the vets pavilion. I was starting to feel I was getting some place now, as this

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was the first time I had been admitted into a department hospital in four years. Little did I know what was in store for me!
13.	After a few days at the Vets Pavilion I was taken under escort to Ste. Anne s, and there I found out a new treatment for l.B. It consists of being beaten into insensibility and thrown into a locked ward among demented veterans, and if what I saw there is considered treatment, may Heaven protect them.
14.	When you have seen veterans who have
lost their minds in the service of their country being manhandled, it is time to ask ourselves is this a democracy?	.
15.	However, after a month or so of being locked up, and under guard I managed to slip a letter out to a friend of mine telling him about conditions; whether or not it was through him I got out I will never know. But I did get out under a promise I would not fight any pension or claim or write to parliament about my treatment. I was even offered a job at Ste. Anne's and. although my condition was active,
I accepted in order to get out of the mental ward.
16.	The first thing I did when I got out was to go to the Montreal Gazette and give an 8 page statement of the things I had seen. I was assured it would be printed, but when I never saw it I went back, and I was told that the censors had refused to allow publication of my story as it would be a detriment to recruits for the armed service, and believe me it would too.
17.	I am now hemorrhaging and my condition is getting worse, and the D.V.A. still refuses to treat me. so I entered a public sanatorium at Ste. Agathe, and in May 1946, I have seven ribs removed to collapse my lung and close the cavity, and then comes word that the pension claim I have been fighting for six years has finally been granted. I was then transferred from the public sanatorium and transferred to Lachine veterans hospital.
18.	In July, 1946. I was discharged from hospital, and took things easy, and once in a while taking a light job for a couple of months, it was while on one of these light jobs as an orderly at the Vets Pavilion that my condition became aetive. This was Jan. 1948. I was told I would have to go into sanatorium again. I said OK.
19.	On Feb. 9 of this year with a letter from Dr. Brown of the vets pavilion I applied for treatment at D.V.A. Montreal. I was told I would have to go to Ste. Anne's. I said, "Xo thanks", as I still remembered my last sojourn there and that if I could not go to the Queen Mary or St. Hyacinthe hospitals I would go to Sunnybrook. The fear of what would happen to me if Ste. Anne's ever got hold of me is what kept me away from there. My fears were well-founded as I shall prove in my next paragraph.
20.	I entered St. Hyacinthe on Feb. 10. 1948, and was doing fine. I had gained 15 lbs. and 1 was happy. On May 7 the doctor came to me and said, "Harvey, the ambulance is here; we are taking you to Ste. Anne's to see a psychiatrist."
21.	I said I would not go, as I knew what would happen if I ever got to Ste. Anne s. I could be locked up for life and no one would ever know, because even the Legion and the Bed Cross are not admitted in F5 at Ste. Anne's.
22.	I was told it is not what I want but what they want; that I have no say in the matter. I said that the only way I would go to Ste.
Anne's would be as a corpse, and I grabbed a nail file oft' my side table and threatened to plunge it into myself if they tried to take me. My dread of Ste. Anne's was such that I would have willingly killed myself.
23.	Holding the nail file pointed at my heart I made a break for the outside, intending to jump the first vehicle that passed and to get away. However, the hospital grounds are surrounded by a 8-ft. barbed wire fence, and I could not get out. In the meantime, five policemen plus two ambulance drivers were drawing in on me, and I saw my chance for freedom diminishing. I tried to jump a ditch but missed my footing and sprawled on my face. Everyone jumped on me. Some stood on my legs and others on ray arms; my arm was then twisted behind mv back and I was bleeding in about eight different places on account of being jumped on.
24.	I was then taken into the ambulance and without a chance to get my personal belongings together, taken to Ste. Anne's where I was locked up this last six weeks and held incommunicado. Through bribery I was able to get. a letter out to Mr. Blaekmore. and this I believe is the only reason I am free today.
25.	My cell had walls covered with urine from its' last occupant. My mattress was rotten with urine also; the blankets are just left from one patient to another. The food is served on a paper plate and consists of the poorest variety and served in an unsanitary condition all mixed up together like pigswill, and no cutlery to eat it with. Doctors pass when they feel like it. I have seen a week pass without a visit, and they just leer at you as though you were so much dirt.
26.	When I got out I went to see Mr. Haig, district administrator; he was not interested and sent me to Mr. Perrault. Mr. Perrault asked me to write him a letter. I went to see Mr. Tiiiins of the Welfare Department. He told me I had a persecution complex and forcibly ejected me from his office. Then, when I wanted to retaliate and punch him he called the police and had me put out.
27.	How long are these men who draw good pav but refuse to carry out their duty going to be allowed to manhandle veterans who have legitimate complaints to make?
28.	While I was locked up a patient at St. Hyacinthe sold my radio. Now D.V.A. tell me they are not responsible. Yet if I was not locked up it would not have happened.
P.S.-Being a grade 3 orderly I know what I am talking about in the following complaints on behalf of other patients who are still locked up:
Patient Beebe. TB of the spine, in cast yet, has to walk to toilet, and has not been bathed for the six weeks I was there.
Patient Papineau. Urinating blood for seven days without anything being done, and no transfusion to replace loss of blood. Xo doctors' visit for six days.
Miss Shepherd a patient of the women's ward was brought inti) F5 on Thursday night June 10 anld locked in the men's ward.
Signed "T. Harvey."
Now, Mr. Chairman, there is the man's deposition. I think every hon. member will recognize that it would be difficult to detect any sign of insanity in tlhat statement. To me
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[Stage Direction]
it is straightforward. In order to make the case complete, so that the minister can go to work on it, I will read a supplementary statement on tlhe man's ipre-war history. This is dated June 17, 1948:
Came to Canada Nov. 1921 at 13 years of age. I was an orphan. My father was killed in world war I. My mother having died after my birth. My father died in 1918. He had served in the Queen's Liverpool Rifles and was a war disability pensioner. I received a child's allowance until I was 16 years of age.
I was brought to Canada by the St. George's Home, 1153 Wellington street, Ottawa, Immigration No. 21 13 196. From date of entrance into Canada till 18 years of age I was a farm worker under the government's supervision. From 18 years of age to my enlistment in 1939, I did various jobs over the Dominion of Canada, such as bush, farm and construction work.
Thomas Harvey
P.S. Pensioned in March, 1946. Rate 100 per cent and $15 for my son. Total $90. I pay $20 per month to the Children's Aid Society of Montreal for the care of my son.
I regret that this is just a statement given from the man's memory. As I said, I took him into the reading room, let him sit down where it was quiet, and told him he was safe there. I spoke to the people in authority. I gave him paper on which to write. He wrote just as fast as he could write and straightforwardly. He finished up in a few hours; I am not just sure of the time. When he went to Montreal we thought it would not be very good for him to go there. I had some anxiety.
Antoine-Philéas Côté: Why?


John Horne Blackmore: I am telling what I thought. Never mind why I thought it. I thought it was not good for him to go to Montreal. But he went there with the object of getting documents which would support the statements that are made here. I understand that is why the whole deposition remains undocumented. But Mr. Chairman, this is the deposition of a Britisher; it is the deposition of a Canadian; it is the deposition of a man who joined His Majesty's forces in 1939, and it is certainly entitled to the fairest consideration of this house and of the country.
I have no idea as to the authenticity of it, how many flaws can be found in it, or anything of that sort. I merely presented it to the house.
I feel that this one conclusion, ought to be drawn from this unfortunate situation, in which I am afraid there is a great deal more truth than some hon. members would like to imagine. I ask the minister this question, and I believe one of the most important things for him to do ini his regime is to enable him-TMr. Blackmore.]
self to answer this question satisfactorily. Has the minister any officer or board whose business it is to know the whereabouts of ex-servicemen and to assure this nation that no such abomination shall be committed against veterans as that which appears to have been inflicted against veteran Harvey? If not, will the minister take steps to see that such an agency be set up forthwith? Will the minister take steps to see that the veterans affairs committee, or some other committee which this house may see fit to set up and charge with the responsibility, shall be free to examine the cases of all those who may be in doubt and who might possibly be the victims of such treatment as this man complains of?
That is the case of veteran Harves-, Mr. Chairman; I leave it to the house and to the minister. When we come back next session, of course we shall be interested in the whereabouts of veteran Harvey.
Before I take my seat I should like to say just a word or two with respect to this case, because I have another one to which I wish to refer. The minister has put on record a number of answers to questions which I asked on June 8 and June 18. Of course I have had no opportunity whatsoever to see finally just what the answer is. I do not know the nature of the telegram which he has bearing upon Canadian psychiatrists. Everyone knows the stand I have taken with respect to psychiatrists. I have not said anything in particular about them. I have merely asked a number of questions. Consequently, because I have not heard what the minister has said I shall have to leave the answering of what he has said until the next session of parliament, when I shall be most watchful concerning that matter and ready to go.


William Ross Macdonald: Shall the item carry? Carried.


Thomas John Bentley: No, Mr. Chairman.


An hon. MEMBER:: Louder.


Thomas John Bentley: It is necessary for me to make the Chairman hear; he keeps on going at a fast rate.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Does the minister wish to reply?


Thomas John Bentley: Does the minister wish to reply to the hon. member for Lethbridge before I ask my questions?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No.


Thomas John Bentley: I just want to mention here that I have gone carefully over the report of the committee on veterans affairs, and I

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also sat on it most of the time this session; in fact, I have sat on that committee during all the sessions I have been here. In the recommendations I see that nothing whatsoever has been done for those individuals who are still left under the operation of t)he Civilian War Pensions and Allowances Act. The rise in the cost of living has affected those people as well as all others. I should like some assurance from the minister that these people are to be considered when the other recommendations are being considered.
One other matter that I wish to mention at this time is in connection with merchant seamen. If the government accepts the recommendation with regard to merchant seamen, which I believe the indications are that they may, will the minister make arrangements for their attendance at technical schools, as is recommended here, as quickly as possible? And will he see that full information goes out to the public just as quickly as possible, so that those who may wish to take advantage of the opportunity may arrange for their entry into schools of this kind as quickly as they require or desire to do so.


Milton Fowler Gregg: To reply to t'he question asked by the hon. member for Vancouver South earlier in the evening, the recommendations inherent in the report of the committee on veterans affairs are all receiving the careful study of the department and of myself at the present time, and I will take under consideration the -remarks made by my hon. friend.
While I am on my feet, I will say that I greatly deplore the method used by the hon. member for -Lethbridge in bringing before the committee in the way he has individual cases of extreme difficulty, with names and numbers. Although I know about the cases concerned, I will not tonight go into the extremely difficult circumstances surrounding them, because I do not think it is right to do so. All I will say is this. While the parliamentary committee dealt with suggestions and proposals for amending the legislation on principle, and did not go into individual cases, they did bring individual cases to my attention. I think nearly every member of this house has, since last January, brought to my attention cases of veterans' difficulties; and I have tried to give them a most complete opportunity to see all sides of the cases. The same opportunity would have been provided to the hon. member for Lethbridge had he desired to take advantage of it. That is my only comment on the matter, except to say that, while these estimates are up, I did intend to pay just one word of tribute to the excellent work performed by all members of the parliamentary committee on veterans affairs during this session of parliament.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member for Vancouver Centre.


John Horne Blackmore: What number did you call, Mr. Chairman?


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member for Vancouver Centre.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has he a number too?


Mr. YOUNG:: I should like to draw to the attention of the minister the case of veterans on allowance at universities. This matter comes particularly to my attention because until recently I was one of them. A number of veterans who are single men and who are at the universities are now drawing D.V.A. allowances; but because their particular courses are such that there is no room for them at Canadian universities, they will have to go abroad. I particularly refer to 483 pre-medical students who are in the country now and for whom there is no room to carry on their studies at Canadian universities. Just about the time I left Vancouver for Ottawa, one of them was busy getting ready to fly to Australia to take his course. The amount of money the department has been allowed for the purpose of helping those veterans, $60 a month-while it may be of vital assistance to them while they are pursuing their studies in Canada-is extremely small in relation to the price structure in the United States and some other countries. Has the minister any suggestions as to how the government may assist financially those who are compelled to go abroad to complete their education?


Milton Fowler Gregg: That matter was discussed before the committee and has been discussed on many other occasions. At present the additional assistance granted for dependents of veteran students during the winter has not been extended to any increase for those without dependents. The situation will be watched carefully during the coming academic year, but in the meantime it is not my intention to make any further proposals to my colleagues in this connection. I would point out to my hon. friend that the amount was never intended as a complete living allowance but rather as a generous scholarship. In the case of the medical students he mentioned it is possible now, when tuition fees have gone up, as in some cases to as much as $500 a year, to have the entire tuition paid in addition to the $60 a month. The matter is kept under constant review.
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Rodney Young: Is it true that in the case of a student attending university in the United States the 860 granted by the government is withdrawn in part, that he is permitted only to draw 810 a week in United States currency? I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the statement, but I should like the minister to tell us whether or not it is the case.


Milton Fowler Gregg: It is not true that it is withheld. The student is able to get $60, if he is single, during his training there, just as he would if he were training in Canada.


Ronald Stewart Moore: The deliberations of the veterans affairs committee this year have shown that the problems of veterans will be with the government for some time to come. I believe the special committee on veterans affairs did a pretty good job this year; and in view of the problems veterans may have in future I should like the minister to consider having the veterans affairs committee as a permanent committee of the house.


Milton Fowler Gregg: That question was brought up in the early part of the session, and I indicated that I felt we should take some time to consider it. It should be pointed out that in some forty meetings of the committee this year the existing legislation was carefully reviewed. I believe representations were received from practically every body and' every group that wished to make them. In addition to changes in legislation, further recommendations have been submitted to me to pass on to the government. My own deputy and his officials were in attendance at many of the forty meetings of that committee, during which a great deal of hard work was done by the members; some of the officials attended every meeting. They were glad' to do so, and I believe a resolution expressing appreciation of their work was adopted by the committee. But I would point out that in attending these meetings and in helping improve our legislation and our plans, at the same time they were leaving important work within the department itself to be done by someone else. So in these closing hours of the session, in reply to the question asked earlier by the hon. member for Royal and repeated just now by the hon. member for Churchill, I must say that during the coming session of parliament I would rather give the department an opportunity to digest the recommendations already made and carry out the plans consequent upon amendments to the legislation. So at this time, at any rate, I would not recommend that a permanent committee be set up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

925. War veterans' allowances - further amount required, $1,325,000.
John Horne Blackmore: Under this item I believe it is fitting that I should discuss the next matter I wish to draw to the attention of the committee. Before doing so, once more I wish to assure the minister that I have no antipathy toward anyone, neither toward him nor toward his department; but when these stories come, as they come incessantly, it becomes the duty of any ordinary member of parliament to look into them and not just accept the words of those who happen to be in authority. I was a schoolteacher for twenty-one years, so that I am not without some experience with people, or without experience with officers, either.
The matter I desire to discuss at this time is the McCann 'commission. I wish to examine this matter with some care before the committee this evening. Once more I am going to read rather rapidly, when I have to read, in the hope that we shall be able to finish in time.


William Ross Macdonald: Order. Would it suit the hon. member if the committee gave unanimous consent to allow him to place his statement on Hansard without having the statement read?


John Horne Blackmore: No, it would not be possible to place it on Hansard; I think I shall have to read it. I can read quite rapidly, though.


William Ross Macdonald: I thought it might save considerable time if the committee would agree to permit the hon. member to place his statement on Hansard.


John Horne Blackmore: It is quite all right with me if it is on Hansard, but I think hon. members should hear the facts as I read them.
I am, however, in the hands of the committee in that respect. I only want the statement on record, so that the minister may give it consideration.


William Ross Macdonald: Has the hon. member unanimous consent?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am as anxious as anyone else to go home, but I think it would be a bad precedent.


John Horne Blackmore: Then I shall read certain passages. There is a good deal of reading to be done, (but I consider it necessary to have it on record so that the people may appraise the situation. On July 16, 1947, the hon. member for Acadia made a speech, as recorded at page 5764 of Hansard for that year. In that speech these questions were asked:
Did Doctor William Baillie, departmental psychiatric consultant, who has never seen John Thom personally, submit as "evidence" to the

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Canadian pension commission his opinion based solely on a statement alleged by Doctor B. 1<. Keillor to have been made to him by John Thom?
Did John Thom submit evidence to the Canadian pension commission, denying the statements attributed to him by Doctor B. F. Iveillor and submitting documentary evidence in- proof they should have 'been expunged from the records as falsities ?
Did the Canadian pension commission accept Doctor William Baillie's opinion, based on Doctor B. F. Keillor's challenged statements, to outlaw John Thom's pension claim as a total war disability?
The hon. member for Swift Current, on the
same day and in the same debate, also had something to say at page 5767 of Hansard. I am inclined to think this would) be a place where, with the permission of the committee, it might be possible to place the hon. member's remarks on Hansard without reading them.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


John Horne Blackmore: But I am in tlhe hands of the committee. Perhaps I could give the general purport oif the h'on. member's remarks. He is right here, and will be aible to say whether or not I am right. His statement was to the effect that there were irregularities in regard to psychiatrists who were treating men. In the course of Ihis remarks he conveyed the idea that so many of these unhappy stories had reached members of parliament that he felt it was time a public inquiry was made, as a result of which we would be able to get the truth and form our judgment on the basis of actual proof.
Let me read now the statement by Mr. Mackenzie, then minister of veterans affairs: As far as we are concerned, I would welcome a committee of three doctors from this house to go into the suggestions that have been submitted, and I would suggest the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann), the 'hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Blair) and the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond (Mr. McGarry). They could meet some time between now and the next session and call in whom they Want and submit a first-class report.
Mr. Bentley:	That is quite a concession for
the minister to make and I appreciate it, but I would ask him to go one step farther and include a member from this end of the house-
Mr. 'COTE (Matapedia-Matane): May I ask a question now?


John Horne Blackmore: Why not allow me to finish reading -from Hansard?
-because we have no doctors-to consider the layman's point of view.
Mr. Mackenzie:	Absolutely yes.
Mr. Bentley:	If the minister says he will
do that, I have nothing further to add except thank you.
That is interesting, because that is the situation which brought about the appointment of the MoCann commission, which I intend to examine into in some detail. The minister promised, according to page 5769 of Hansard, that he would set up a commission "to submit a first-class report." A charge was made in this house by two responsible members of parliament and by two members of the veterans affairs committee. In my opinion that matter should have 'been investigated for this house, and a report involving the hearings should have been made to this house.
Two specific charges were made. The first was that there had been falsification of records, and the second had to do with the evils of psychiatrists. The MoCann commission was set u.p under P.C. 4980 of 1947 and P.C. 75 of 1948 to conduct an investigation under the Inquiries Act, part I. That is an exceedingly important fact. I\hat does it mean to be appointed a commissioner under part I of the Inquiries Act? Perhaps I should read from the documents under which this commission went to work, as follows:	.
Appendix "A"
Report of a commission appointed under the provisions of part I of the Inquiries Act by order in council P.C. 4980 dated December 4, 1947, as amended by order in council P.C. 75, dated January 8-, 1948.
1.	The following members of parliament were appointed by order in council P.C. 4980 dated December 4, 1947, and order in council P.C. 75, dated January 8, 1948, as commissioners under part I of the Inquiries Act for the purposes hereinafter set forth:
The Hon.. James J. McCann, M.P., chairman, Ottawa, Ont.
Dr M E. McGarry, M.P., Margaree Forks, N.S.
Dr. W. G. Blair, M.P., Perth, Ont.
J. 0. Probe, Esq., M.P., Regina, Sask.
R. H. Winters, Esq., M.P., Lunenburg, N.S. in the absence of the Hon. James J. McCann, M.P.
F. L. Barrow, Esq., Ottawa, Ont., departmental secretary, Department of Veterans Affairs, was secretary of the commission.
2.	The purpose of the commission was to investigate complaints made by Walter H. Kirch-ner, Esq.. M.C., D.C.M., secretary, Canadian Combat Veterans Association, Inc., Vancouver, B.C., regarding pension and treatment services and. in particular, to inquire into and report to the Minister of Veterans Affairs on
(i)	the adequacy of the treatment provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs with respect to the cases concerning which Mr. Kirchner has made representations;
(ii)	the qualifications and competence of departmental doctors treating these cases; and
(iii)	the adequacy of pension consideration given to the cases concerning which Mr. Kirchner has made representations.
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. 6. The commission was charged with considering the eases of sixty-two veterans with respect to whom Mr. Kirehner had made representations. Subsequently, in giving his evidence at \ aneouver, Mr. Kirehner presented one additional case in which it was understood that he had become interested only very recently.
Hon. members will find that on page 214 of No. 6 of the minutes of proceedings of evidence of the special committee on veterans affairs 1948. I think the first thing hon. members will -be interested in is that there is not a single word of mention of the falsification of documents or of the work of the psychiatrists.
What does it mean to be appointed as a commissioner under part I of the Inquiries Act? Let me read from that act, which is chapter 99 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, being an act respecting public and departmental inquiries. Part I of the act reads as follows:
1.	This act may be cited as the Inquiries Act.
2.	The governor in council may, whenever he deems it expedient, cause inquiry to be made into and concerning any matter connected with the good government of Canada or the conduct of any part of the public business thereof.
3.	In case such inquiry is not regulated by any special law, the governor in council may, by a commission in the case, appoint persons as commissioners by whom the inquiry shall be conducted.
4.	The commissioners shall have the power of summoning before them any witnesses, and of requiring them to give evidence on oath, or on solemn affirmation if they are persons entitled to affirm in civil matters, and orally or in writing, and to produce such documents and things as the commissioners deem requisite to the full investigation of the matters into which they are appointed to examine.
5.	The commissioners shall have the same power to enforce the attendance of witnesses and to compel them to give evidence as is vested in any court of record in civil cases.
It is quite clear that the commissioners had all the powers necessary to inquire into any problem whatsoever. It is also quite clear that they were appointed by the governor in council and consequently were called upon to perform an exceedingly solemn task and were charged with an exceedingly solemn responsibility before this house and this country.
I should like to examine into some of the aspects of the proceedings of the McCann commission as recorded in return, reference 159 dated June 24, 1948, mover Mr. Low. I quote: 26th November 1947.
It was agreed that the commission would examine the files of the eases in which Mr. Kirehner had made representations and the other evidence at hand and would recommend to the Minister of Veterans Affairs whether he should sponsor further inquiry, or action.
Let us comment on that remarkable statement, and it is a remarkable statement, which fMr. 11 lack in ore.J
appears in their own words or in the words of the people who prepared this report for presentation to the House of Commons.
At that first meeting several things were agreed to. The commission assumed authority to recommend to the minister whether he should sponsor further inquiry or action. Where did this commission receive instructions, or how did they obtain the discretion to do any such thing? Where does such authority appear in the terms of reference or in the discussion in the House of Commons on July 16, 1947.
Later in the document follow some statements with regard to December 3 and December 4, 1947, which are quite interesting. I quote:
3rd December 1947.
The commission met at 10 a.m. Examination of the files continued.
Mr. K. C. Rappell, departmental solicitor of the legal division. D.V.A., was heard during the afternoon and questioned as to the meaning, in law, of certain of the charges made by Mr. Kirehner in connection with the case of 86084, John Thom.
4th December 1947.
A draft comment on one of Mr. Kirchner's charges, which had been prepared by Mr. Rappell on the instructions of tilie commission, was considered and approved.


Antoine-Philéas Côté: May I ask a question?
Mr. BLACIvMORE: Let me finish and then ask your questions.
There is not one word about the charges made by the hon. member for Acadia on July 16, 1947, with regard to the falsification of evidence. The pension commission's legal personnel had accepted as evidence fake evidence in making decisions upon pension claims. Mr. Rappell, departmental solicitor of the legal division, D.V.A., would conceivably be one of the very gentlemen against whom Mr. Kirchner's charges would be levied. The McCann commission had authority to call before it the ablest independent legal talent in Canada or Great Britain to study the evidence, to weigh its import, to give unbiased judicial opinion upon it and upon the decisions based upon it.
The commission could have gone out to the men whose cases were being studied. They could have got all t'he evidence from those servicemen. They could have called all witnesses involved and heard them in detail. They could have called in Mr. Kirohner and had before them all the evidence of every kind suggested by that well-informed gentleman.
Then, having heard all this evidence in support of the prosecution they could have called for an exhaustive presentation of the case for the defence. Then they oould lhave submitted the whole case to one or two judges of the

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supreme court, perhaps having Mr. Kirehner select one and the pension commission, select one. Then they could have questioned the judges on the meaning in law of certain charges. Then the commission could have had the judges write the decision in respect of the charges of falsification of evidence.
But What did the commission do?
They asked the accused to give the meaning of the law under which he was charged. They asked him to appraise the evidence. They asked him to write the decision before any witnesses for the prosecution were heard while the commission was still in Ottawa on December 3 and 4 and 'had heard only one side. In other words, the commission asked the accused to do the job which the commission was asked to do. Then the commission accepted the accused's decision and blessed it with their approval and submitted their report based upon the decision of the accused!
The commission did all their work on the falsification of evidence charge apparently in two days, December 3 and 4. It might be argued that they went out to Vancouver and heard witnesses afterwards, but it is stated specifically in that ipart of the return that the report was prepared by Mr. Rappell on their instructions and presented to them on December 4 and accepted by them.
So that so far as the witnesses and the commission were concerned we must assume that from that time the matter was closed as regards the charge of falsification of records.
I make no claim to being a lawyer at all, but that is how it looks to an ordinary person on the street.
Here are some other aspects of this McCann commission having to do with the conduct of its affairs. First, Walter Kirehner was recognized as the advocate of the veterans. I draw attention of members of the house to two or three jiress reports. In one of these reports we find these words:
The commission reviewed sixty-three cases-[DOT]
This is in a press release from the commission apparently:

all of which were represented by Kirehner and heard testimony from twenty-four witnesses here and in Ottawa.
This appeared in the Vancouver News-Herald. They, at least, tried to convey the idea that Mr. Kirehner was the advocate, and certainly he should have been the advocate, because he was the man who made the charges.
What actually did occur? According to my information the commission called before it by subpoena certain of Kirchner's key witnesses without Kirehner being present-J. S.
5849-397i
Beltz, H-6417, a Hong Kong prisoner of war, lceyman for the Hong Kong men; Sholto D. McClellan, #77732, another key witness.
On January 16, 1948, Doctor Lynn Gunn, Superintendent of Shaughnessy Hospital interfered with Ernest J. Maxwell, R-51164 by telling him that this commission did not require his evidence and that he could return to hospital, after, I presume, he had been subpoenaed, although we are not sure about that. Is not this a most remarkable method of proceeding with a hearing?
On January 16, 1948, John V. Thom, M.M., gave detailed supporting evidence to show that the Canadian pension commission had falsified his records, and Albert B. W. Crowhurst, No. 954-38, gave similar evidence, and Arthur Perfitt.
Following the release of the commission's findings these witnesses wrote to the press protesting against the unscrupulous action of the McCann commission in omitting any reference to their evidence supporting the charges that they had been defrauded of pension rights by unlawful practices. May I read some of the letters from these men who were examined by this remarkable commission we sent out. The first appears in the Vancouver Daily Province and reads:
Sir:
Re the Shaughnessy hospital inquiry. The government has once again wasted the country's money and the time of busy men if the commission mentioned was sent out to investigate charges against the hospital management and doctors.
These are not the evils charged. The government has just sidetracked the original charges which are against the pension commission doctors and have nothing to do with the hospital staff doctors.
The pension doctors have wilfully omitted certain items from a soldier's medical history which would have given him a pension and have inserted false statements to prevent a pension.
I feel sure you will search out and reveal the truth as shortly it will be revealed and with this first-hand information.
A Witness.
North Vancouver.
(Note:	Regarding charges of "deliberate
falsification of reports," etc., the commission made a conclusive finding that "in none of the cases examined does the record substantiate these charges or even suggest that a basis for the charges exists or that the case was carelessly handled."-Editor).
Here is another letter to the Vancouver Daily Province of April 8, 1948, written by the same man:
Sir:
With reference to the note added by you to the end of my letter signed "A Witness," stating the commission investigating Walter Kirchner's charges has repor ed that certain charges were not substantiate 1, I would like
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to state that the commission admitted that evidence in my case was lacking, or omitted, from 1918 to 1928, and that was the reason I was not pensionable.
I replied that if they searched the hospital records they would find I had been treated for those complaints, but the board doctors had left it out in their reports. Now, if something is left out that would have given me a pension, is it not falsifying the records? If it is, then can you tell me why the commission states that the charges are not true?
I also submitted irrefutable documentary proofs of something omitted.
Vancouver.
A Witness.
How does that sound, following this commission? I will read another one in the Vancouver Daily Province of April 13, 1948:
Thanks Hospital Staff
Sir: I am one of the witnesses who protested against the practices of the Canadian Pension Commission doctors omitting items from my medical history and substituting statements which deprived me of pension for totally-disabling injuries received in the services, and substantiated by two of the leading orthopaedic surgeons of this province, who are also D.V.A. consultants in this specialized sphere.
I wish to add my testimony before the recent Royal Commission which was given from a hospital stretcher under great difficulties, as my spine has been twice "cracked" in a successful major operation to straighten out my back, doubled over for many years past.
May I publicly repeat my thanks to the wonderful treatment services of the Shaugh-nessy Hospital both physicians and nurses, which I recorded in my evidence, and which was also emphasized by Walter H. Kirchner, M.C., D.C.M., in his evidence before the Royal Commission on my behalf.
Albert B. W. Crowhurst.
Sliaughnessy Hospital.
The point is that the press reports have been so worded

I have them here, but shall not take time to read them-as to convey to the people the idea that Walter Kirch net's charges were against the medical personnel of Shaughnessy hospital, which was as far from the truth as possible, as will appear from what I have said.
Albert Crowhurst points this out. Here is another letter dated April 1, 1948:
The charges of Walter H. Kirchner, M.C., D.C.M., of the Combat Veterans against the D.V.A. administration concern the unlawful practices of the Canadian Pension Commission, and not the treatment services of the Shaughnessy hospital, the latter being over-emphasized in the press reports of March 20, 1948, to the exclusion of the former.
I was one of the witnesses before the Royal Commission on inquiry here and gave evidence proving my war disability rights had been outlawed by a false report inserted into the records by the pension medical examiner. In consequence, the expert medical evidence of three top ranking specialists unlawfully was

ruled out by the Canadian Pension Commission. The House of Commons is now in a position to take action against the Canadian Pension Commission in the interests of all disabled veterans affected by these most unlawful practices.
J. V. Thom, M.M.
These are letters from some of the men. I ask hon. members whether in the light of such letters and other considerations as these, we can pass this whole matter easily by.
Here is another remarkable aspect of this McCann commission's behaviour: Apparently most of the evidence, if recorded at all, was recorded upon phonographic records. That evidence has never been transcribed. As I pointed out, the charge was made in public in this House of Commons by two responsible members, the hon. member for Acadia and the hon. member for Swift Current.
Right Hon. Ian Mackenzie's words, although they were somewhat vague and were not fully specific, would certainly convey the idea that there was to be a public inquiry which would provide evidence which every hon. member and the people of the country could1 have in their hands and consider, not a study conducted in a secret way with all the evidence recorded on records to which almost no one could gain access? How in the world could you have any kind of intelligible result from a commission conducted in that way? The evidence has been kept on the records in the possession of the McCann commission as its own personal property! Certainly that is not what the hon. member for Swift Current and the hon. member for Acadia asked for. One would1 have expected that the evidence would be given before a public inquiry and would belong to the public. I cannot escape the conviction that that is exactly what it should have been.
Again, we are told that none of the witnesses was sworn. We have the minister's own words for that, on June 14 in a statement in which he endeavoured to have the hon. member for Peace River withdraw his request for a copy of the evidence and proceedings of the McCann commission, appointed under the authority of P.C. 4980, made this statement at page 5151 of Hansard:
The witnesses were not sworn, and as a result they gave evidence over and above that which would have been required had they been informed that they were proceeding on a formal basis under oath. Some of the discussions at Vancouver were recorded on sound recording discs in order to assist the commissioner in writing his report on that phase of the hearing.
I must confess that as an ordinary man on the street that sort of thing is completely incomprehensible to me as being the record

Supply-Veterans Affairs
of a public inquiry into two of the most important charges that have been made since I have been in the house.
I have been told, however, that the veterans claiming injustices were sworn. I am not sure whether it is true. Men who say they are in a position to know say they were. Again I will not give the names because I am not willing to make that charge particularly specific. I have been told that the veterans who were claiming injustices were sworn while the departmental witnesses who were in a way speaking for the defence were not sworn. I submit that lion,, members and the people of the country must agree that that gives room for the widest kind of misrepresentation possible.


An hon. MEMBER:: Carried.


John Horne Blackmore: I know some would like to have it carried, but I have a few other things to say. A commission consisting mainly of doctors would not be in a position to understand the conduct of a legal investigation into a legal matter. Yet this commission consisting mainly of doctors retained no counsel to guide them! How in the world a group of five men could have considered themselves competent to inquire into so vexatious and so widely ramified a problem as that without a counsel to guide them, I cannot understand. Under the terms of their reference, and under the Public Inquiries Act, under which they were appointed, they had full power to select the finest legal counsel who could! be found in Canada and have him to guide them into the whole of their investigation; but apparently they considered themselves quite capable of doing this thing-a most astonishing situation!
Having laid before the house and the country the kind of thing that has apparently been attempted here, I shall not undertake to say what must have been the motive behind the men who set up that commission or planned it. I would not dare to suggest it, even. I would not suggest that the object of the whole thing was to discredit Mr. Kinchner. I would not like to suggest that the object of the whole thing was to whitewash the grievances of those unfortunate veterans, sixty-two of them, so that they would never again have any chance, even to be heard. I would not like to suggest that the object was to deceive parliament, although I must say that the kind of press reports that went out at the time the commission was first appointed to commence its hearings until the last, was certainly of the kind that would deceive the public, because the emphasis in all the press reports is placed on the question of whether or not there was anything wrong with the medical personnel in Shaughnessy hospital, a matter which had
never even been suggested by Mr. Kirchner, or by anybody else, so far as I know. The commission makes such a statement as this, for example. This was published in the veterans affairs publication in May, 1948, which all hon. members received:
McCann commission report that hospital facilities are satisfactory.
This appears under the signature of A. T. Paton, regional public relations officer, and reads as follows:
Medical and surgical treatment and the results obtained in Shaughnessy hospital are quite satisfactory and of a high calibre-as high as in any hospital in Canada. The percentage of successful operations performed there is, in our opinion, well in line with that obtained anywhere in the profession.
It was never even suggested that anything but such was true. Why should a headline in the veterans affairs paper indicate that the charge had been that there was anything wrong with the doctors in Shaughnessy hospital? Further down we have these words:
Their report stated, "The commission is satisfied with, and finds no basis for complaint concerning the organization, operation and facilities of Shaughnessy or the qualifications of departmental doctors. On the whole, the commission is fully satisfied with the high degree of competence of all departmental doctors."
If you were looking at these headlines, Mr. Chairman, you would find that because these later words are set out in black type this passage is the chief thing which the people were supposed to read.
I have produced sufficient evidence at this late hour of the session to give hon. members something to think about quite earnestly before we get back next year.
As a result of What I have feared from considering this whole affair, this McCann commission, has come as almost the crowning piece of evidence of evil in the whole Canadian pension set-up. I am not criticizing any one of the people in the pension commission, but something is entirely wrong, and this McCann commission is the strongest possible evidence that this house and this country can have, to prove that something is terribly wrong.
Considering all these facts, Mr. Chairman, I say the minister should take steps immediately to set up suich an organization as will enable the people of this country to satisfy themselves that the unfortunate veterans who happen to fall between stools, as these lads like Thom and Crowhurst and Harvey, shall have the right to ibe heard before some tribunal that shall be unbiased either politically or in any other way. How can our men have any confidence at all when they have to be tried before a tribunal with such a record as has been

Ways and Means

indicated, and When they feel that they have to appear before an appeal board which is selected from the very men who ruled on their [DOT]cases in the first place? Where is the possibility of justice? I suggest to the minister that something must be done. I will not undertake to suggest what it ought to be, but something certainly must be done to gave our men something like a fair chance.
One more thing I should like to say, and it comes as a result of what I have read before, regarding Harvey and some of these boys. Apparently there is a demand on the part of somebody in the Canadian pension commission which has caused the doctors all down through the organization to threaten men who have been veterans, and who find themselves in such circumstances as have been described, with punishment if they write to their member of parliament. Have we got to the point where it must be conceded that in this country, when a man dons the king's uniform and risks his life for the welfare of the state, he thereby forfeits his title to his citizen's rights, that he no longer has the right to communicate with .his member of parliament, that he is in effect disfranchised, as it were? And must he be looked upon as an offender if he writes to his [DOT] member of parliament, and from that time forward be subject to all sorts of petty mean-mess and discrimination, even to the extent perhaps of being locked in a padded cell incommunicado? Have we got to that point? Some hon. members laugh. Well, the members who laugh would be simply appalled if I were to give evidence of a man who spoke to me three days ago, whose word would never be questioned, and who told me exactly what had been threatened him because he had asked for the milk which his doctor had prescribed in the hospital in which he was taken care of. That sort of thing must cease to be.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
["Mr. Speaker, When I asked to be permitted to table instead of to read the correspondence whidh passed between the Minister of Justice and myself today, I had in mind the desire of hon. members to bring proceedings to a close as speedily as possible. As words have been expressed by others in reference to my colleague the Minister of Justice, I should like to read the correspon-\n\nRight Hon. J. L. Ilsley\ndence if I may be permitted to do so. It helps to reveal my own feelings toward my colleague, as well as those of other members of the government and of the parliament of our country. May I say I think in Mr. Usley's resignation from the government our country is losing one of the greatest .public servants any country has ever possessed. I do not think it is possible to pay the Minister of Justice too much in the way of praise for his fine integrity, indefatigable industry and great ability and for the splendid public service he has rendered our country in time of peace and of war.\nThe letter I received from Mr. Ilsley today is as follows:\nMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada\nOttawa, 30th June, 1948. My dear Prime Minister,-\nPursuant to our conversations at the beginning of the session and to the statement which I made to the press a few weeks ago, I now beg to tender my resignation as a member of the government.\nAs I have already stated, my reason for taking this step is that it is necessary for me to give attention to my personal affairs. I need hardly say that it is with many regrets that I leave a government with which I have been associated for so long, whose members I like and respect so much and with whose policies I am so completely in accord.\nI should like also to express my appreciation of the privilege of serving under your leadership for so many years of your long and distinguished career as Prime Minister.\nWith kind personal regards, I am,\nYours sincerely,\nJ. L. Ilsley.\nThe Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King,\nPrime Minister of Canada,\nOttawa.\nTo Mr. Ilsley's letter I replied as follows:\nOffice of the Prime Minister Canada Ottawa,\nJune 30, 1948.\nThe Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley, P.C., K.C., M.P.,\nMinister of Justice,\nOttawa.\nMy dear Ilsley:\nI have received your letter of today in which, in accordance with your intentions as intimated to me in personal conversations at the beginning of the session, and in a statement to the press a few weeks ago, you tender your resignation as a member of the government.\nYou know, without words, how profound is the regret repeatedly expressed by our colleagues and myself, that you should, for any reason, have felt it necessary to contemplate retiring from the ministry in which for almost thirteen years, you have held successively the portfolios of National Revenue, Finance and Justice. As, however, you state that it has\nbecome necessary for you to take this step in order to give attention to your personal affairs,\nI feel I have no alternative but to submit your resignation to His Excellency, and to advise its acceptance.\nThe regret felt by our colleagues and myself at your retirement will, I know, be shared by the people of Canada whose interests you have served so honourably and with such exceptional ability and fidelity in times alike of peace and war. Indeed warm appreciation of the strength which your presence in its councils has brought to the government of our country has already been expressed in parliament by the people's representatives irrespective of party affiliation. The devoted service you have given Canada, as a minister of the crown, will be remembered with gratitude.\nAs one with whom I have been so closely associated in public life since your election to parliament twenty-two years ago, and the one who today is my senior colleague in the cabinet,\nI cannot begin to express to you how deeply, both on personal and public grounds, I regret your retirement. I can only thank you for all that your helpful counsel and close co-operation have meant to me in the discharge of the heavy responsibilities which together we have been called upon to share.\nAs you resume the practice of your chosen profession, may I extend to you every possible good wish on the part of all our colleagues in the government and myself.\nWith warm personal regards,\nYours very sincerely,\nW. L. Mackenzie King.\nMay I express my very sincere thanks to the leader of the C.C.F. party and to the other hon. members who have so kindly made reference to my own approaching retirement from the leadership of my party and also from the leadership of the government, both of which, may I say without any reservation, will have taken place before another session of parliament. I thought I had made myself clear in that regard; I should be sorry if anyone thought there was any reservation. What I have sought to convey in regard to the time of tendering my resignation to His Excellency the Governor General is that this will not necessarily be at the same time I cease to be leader of my party; that it may be a matter of weeks or a month or two thereafter. But this is the last moment I expect to be present in this House of Commons in the position I have had the honour to occupy as Prime Minister and leader of the government for now in all over twenty-one years. I am happy indeed to think that after that length of time it is possible for me to feel that I am parting with members of all parties in the house with their good will. I thank one and all.\nThe Royal Assent"]
Douglas Charles Abbott: That towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending 
March 31, 1949, the sums of $781,658,186.63, $197,067,426.89 and $10,100,00-0, respectively, be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Abbott thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 399, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending March 31, 1949.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2.
['That towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending \nMarch 31, 1949, the sums of $781,658,186.63, $197,067,426.89 and $10,100,00-0, respectively, be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.']
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, may I say just a word in connection with this section. I am not forgetting that three or four hours ago I told the house that I did not plan to say anything more today, but there has been called to my attention a press dispatch which I should like to draw to the attention of the Minister of Finance. It relates to one of the items in schedule A to the bill. This clause 2 is the clause that validates schedule A, hence my speaking about this matter now. Last evening, in one of our many discussions about the plight of superannuated civil servants, the minister told me and the house once again that he felt the government should not be asked to do something which private employers are not doing. My hon. friend the member for York West has made an interjection which indicates that he knows the report which I have in my hand, issued by the Canadian Press, under yesterday's dateline, which I am quoting from today's Ottawa Journal, to the effect that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company is giving a small supplement to its pensioners in the lower brackets.
This house knows very well my complaint against the Canadian Pacific Railway Company in the matter of pensions. This house knows the score on behalf of many of my constituents which still has to be settled; yet even that company, which I have castigated in this house many times, is now recognizing the plight of its pensioners in the lower brackets. As a matter of fact, the company is making a shameful admission in recognizing that it has employees on pensions of $30 and $40 a month. At any rate, all credit to the company for this gesture; it is providing a

Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley
supplement of $5 a month to those whose pensions are less than $40 a month, and to those whose pensions are between $40 and $45, a sufficient supplement to bring those pensioners up to $45.
I make this further plea-perhaps it is^ the *last plea of the session-to the Minister of Finance, and I ask him once again to consider the plight of superannuated civil servants, particularly those in the lower pension brackets. I said to him last night, as I have said before, it seems to us that the government should be a model employer. Here is one private corporation which has made a gesture in this direction, and I would hope that the Canadian government would not fall behind the Canadian Pacific Railway Company in this matter.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am not familiar with the pension plan of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, but I doubt very much whether it is as generous as the government's superannuation plan.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I can support what the minister is saying about deficiencies in the Canadian Pacific Railway Company pension plan, and perhaps at this hour of the night it would not be well for him to start me on that, or I might try to raise the question about which I am still concerned, and if it were in order I would do so. My point is that when a company which has the record that this company has is prepared to do at 'least this little bit, the government ought to be able to do the same. May I remind the Minister of Finance that there are superannuated civil servants down in these same brackets. I have given the figures to him before. And even those who are in brackets higher than these are having real difficulty.


Douglas Charles Abbott: May I remind my hon. friend that there are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who are neither eligible for, nor do they receive, superannuation from any superannuation plan,
Mr. KNOWLES1: Shame to the government for that too.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 3 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is customary, Mr. Speaker, to announce resignations from and changes in the ministry. One resignation has been handed to me today. It is that of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ilsley). I have replied to the Minister of Justice stating that in the circumstances which are mentioned in his letter to me I would advise His Excellency to accept the minister's resignation. It is true that the resignation does not take effect until midnight tonight, but as the house will not be sitting tomorrow, and as probably the exchange of correspondence would not find its place in the official records if left over until the next session, I would ask that I might be permitted to table tonight the correspondence which has passed beween us. I would also ask that the correspondence might appear in Hansard, in its record of today's proceedings.


James Horace King: Is it the pleasure of the house to give the Prime Minister such leave?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.
Mr. HOWARD C. GREEN (Vancouver South): On behalf of the official opposition, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say just a word in appreciation of the services that the Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley has rendered to this nation. We watched him during the war years when he carried such a heavy load as Minister of Finance. We saw him bear that burden with courage and with great distinction. I think from coast to coast Mr. Ilsley is highly respected by Canadians of all parties. On behalf of my colleagues in the Progressive Conservative party, I am only too glad to be able to pay him that small tribute this evening. I trust that in his professional life he will have, not only great success but also great happiness. He has done a grand job for Canada, and I am sure we all appreciate that fact.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: I, too, Mr. Speaker, should like to join in the expressions of appreciation of the work of the Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley. I think no man in public life in Canada stands higher in public esteem than the former Minister of Justice. No matter in what quarter of the house we sit, there are certain people whom we can respect. Mr. Ilsley, through his devoted services during the war, the manner in which he did not spare himself, and by his unquestioned integrity
Right Hon. J. L. llsley

and honesty, made a contribution to the public life of Canada of which I think not only he but the nation itself can be proud.
4 am glad that this opportunity was afforded to us to express the general feeling of admiration and respect that we feel for the Minister of Justice whose resignation is before us tonight. Regardless of Mr. Ilsley's party associations, I think his retirement is a loss, not only to the Liberal party but to the country as a whole. The country can ill afford to spare men of the type of the former Minister of Justice. Speaking on behalf of those associated with me and of myself personally, may I say we feel that his retirement is indeed a distinct loss, not only to the government and to the party, but to the entire country.
Tonight I listened to a discussion between the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) and the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King). I presume, from what was said, that in all probability this is the last time that we shall see the Prime Minister in the position of leader of the Liberal party, at least; I am not quite clear with regard to the other high position which he occupies. In any event, I should like to add this comment before I sit down. I think we can say to him that we wish him well in retirement from the one office or from the two offices, whichever he himself may decide, and as to which we shall probably know when the house assembles in the autumn, or after Christmas, or whenever the new session may be called.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): I should like to associate myself, Mr. Speaker, and those who sit with me with all the good things that have been said with regard to both the former Minister of Justice (Mr. llsley) and the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King). We greatly admire both these gentlemen for their high personal qualities and their integrity. We hate to see them leave public life. We feel that they have set a great example. In my associations with both of them I personally have had pride in the fact that I received the utmost satisfaction with regard to anything that I have taken before them. I feel that the country is losing from those two high offices men of great ability and outstanding qualities.


Angus MacInnis: Despite the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the leader of this group spoke for the group when he referred to the Minister of Justice (Mr. llsley), whose resignation we have received,
I should like to state personally my own great feeling of loss as a result of the fact that Mr. llsley has decided first of all to give up his portfolio and later on his membership in

this house. It is a loss that this country can ill afford. Mr. llsley, in all the offices he has filled in the ministry, has, I think, proved himself to be one of the greatest cabinet ministers Canada has ever had. There was nothing spectacular about him; but his integrity and earnestness were so manifest that no one who watched him, as I did from my seat almost across from him, could help being impressed. As I said before, I feel that his leaving public life is a loss to this country as well as to the party, of which he has been an ornament and a useful servant for so many years.
(Translation):


Antoine-Philéas Côté: Mr. Speaker, may I be permitted to say a few words in French, not on behalf of all French-speaking members of the house, for I 'have no authority to do so, but in my own name. I should like to voice and put on record my heartfelt wishes.
I hope that during the August convention, the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), who seems to be enjoying good health, will hear a unanimous appeal to remain by our side, if not as leader of the Liberal party, then at least as prime minister.
I have no objection to another party leader being chosen when the right hon. Prime Minister decides to withdraw from that position but, to my mind, there never was a time When we needed the right hon. Prime Minister Mackenzie King more than we do today. Political events of recent elections have made that Obvious.
Since the people on the whole place their trust in the Right Hon. Mr. Mackenzie King, I honestly believe that he could do the country no greater service than by remaining in office as prime minister as long as he wishes, rather than by becoming governor general. Knowing that his successor is already chosen, he could resign whenever it suited him to do so.
In the meantime, I hope I speak on behalf of most if not all the members in saying to the Right Hon. Mr. Mackenzie King: "Long live the King".
( Text):


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, When I asked to be permitted to table instead of to read the correspondence whidh passed between the Minister of Justice and myself today, I had in mind the desire of hon. members to bring proceedings to a close as speedily as possible. As words have been expressed by others in reference to my colleague the Minister of Justice, I should like to read the correspon-

Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley
dence if I may be permitted to do so. It helps to reveal my own feelings toward my colleague, as well as those of other members of the government and of the parliament of our country. May I say I think in Mr. Usley's resignation from the government our country is losing one of the greatest .public servants any country has ever possessed. I do not think it is possible to pay the Minister of Justice too much in the way of praise for his fine integrity, indefatigable industry and great ability and for the splendid public service he has rendered our country in time of peace and of war.
The letter I received from Mr. Ilsley today is as follows:
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
Ottawa, 30th June, 1948. My dear Prime Minister,-
Pursuant to our conversations at the beginning of the session and to the statement which I made to the press a few weeks ago, I now beg to tender my resignation as a member of the government.
As I have already stated, my reason for taking this step is that it is necessary for me to give attention to my personal affairs. I need hardly say that it is with many regrets that I leave a government with which I have been associated for so long, whose members I like and respect so much and with whose policies I am so completely in accord.
I should like also to express my appreciation of the privilege of serving under your leadership for so many years of your long and distinguished career as Prime Minister.
With kind personal regards, I am,
Yours sincerely,
J. L. Ilsley.
The Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King,
Prime Minister of Canada,
Ottawa.
To Mr. Ilsley's letter I replied as follows:
Office of the Prime Minister Canada Ottawa,
June 30, 1948.
The Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley, P.C., K.C., M.P.,
Minister of Justice,
Ottawa.
My dear Ilsley:
I have received your letter of today in which, in accordance with your intentions as intimated to me in personal conversations at the beginning of the session, and in a statement to the press a few weeks ago, you tender your resignation as a member of the government.
You know, without words, how profound is the regret repeatedly expressed by our colleagues and myself, that you should, for any reason, have felt it necessary to contemplate retiring from the ministry in which for almost thirteen years, you have held successively the portfolios of National Revenue, Finance and Justice. As, however, you state that it has
become necessary for you to take this step in order to give attention to your personal affairs,
I feel I have no alternative but to submit your resignation to His Excellency, and to advise its acceptance.
The regret felt by our colleagues and myself at your retirement will, I know, be shared by the people of Canada whose interests you have served so honourably and with such exceptional ability and fidelity in times alike of peace and war. Indeed warm appreciation of the strength which your presence in its councils has brought to the government of our country has already been expressed in parliament by the people's representatives irrespective of party affiliation. The devoted service you have given Canada, as a minister of the crown, will be remembered with gratitude.
As one with whom I have been so closely associated in public life since your election to parliament twenty-two years ago, and the one who today is my senior colleague in the cabinet,
I cannot begin to express to you how deeply, both on personal and public grounds, I regret your retirement. I can only thank you for all that your helpful counsel and close co-operation have meant to me in the discharge of the heavy responsibilities which together we have been called upon to share.
As you resume the practice of your chosen profession, may I extend to you every possible good wish on the part of all our colleagues in the government and myself.
With warm personal regards,
Yours very sincerely,
W. L. Mackenzie King.
May I express my very sincere thanks to the leader of the C.C.F. party and to the other hon. members who have so kindly made reference to my own approaching retirement from the leadership of my party and also from the leadership of the government, both of which, may I say without any reservation, will have taken place before another session of parliament. I thought I had made myself clear in that regard; I should be sorry if anyone thought there was any reservation. What I have sought to convey in regard to the time of tendering my resignation to His Excellency the Governor General is that this will not necessarily be at the same time I cease to be leader of my party; that it may be a matter of weeks or a month or two thereafter. But this is the last moment I expect to be present in this House of Commons in the position I have had the honour to occupy as Prime Minister and leader of the government for now in all over twenty-one years. I am happy indeed to think that after that length of time it is possible for me to feel that I am parting with members of all parties in the house with their good will. I thank one and all.
The Royal Assent


PROROGATION OF PARLIAMENT
[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Laimoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Right Honourable the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to -the Senate chamber.
In the Senate chamber, the Right Honourable the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to give, in His Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:

[Stage Direction]
An Act respecting The Bell Telephone Company of Canada.
An Act respecting The Ruthenian Catholic Mission of the Order of Saint Basil the Great in Canada.
An Act to incorporate the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association.
An Act to incorporate The Canadian Association of Optometrists.
An Act respecting Canadian Marconi Company.
An Act respecting Canadian Slovak Benefit Society.
An Act to incorporate The Canadian Legion of the British Empire Service League.
An Act to incorporate Rinker Finance Corporation.
An Act to incorporate Canadian Co-Operative Processors Limited.
An Act respecting the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
An Act to amend the Canada Evidence Act. An Act to amend The Mail Contracts Supplemental Payments Act.
An Act to amend The National Housing Act, 1944.
An Act to amend The Judges Act, 1946.
An Act to incorporate The National Fire and Casualty Insurance Company.
An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Race Meetings).
An Act to amend the Loan Companies Act. An Act respecting the Reclamation and Development of Marshlands in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, -and Prince Edward Island.
An Act to amend the Dominion Succession Duty Act.
An Act to amend the Land Titles Act.
An Act to amend the Excise Tax Act. An Act to amend the Yukon Act.
An Act to amend the Tariff Board Act.
An Act to provide for carrying into effect the Treaties of Peace between Canada and Italy, Roumania, Hungary and Finland.
An Act to amend an Act respecting the National Battlefields at Quebec.
An Act respecting the supplying of Electrical Power in the Northwest Territories.
An Act to amend the Railway Act, the Exchequer Court Act and The Judges Act,
An Act to amend the Canada Shipping Act, 1934.
An Act to amend The Excise Act, 1934.
An Act to amend the Customs Tariff.
An Act to amend the Yukon Placer Mining Act.
An Act to amend The Saskatchewan Natural Resources Act.
An Act to amend The Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932, and The Foreign Insurance Companies Act, 1932.
An Act to amend the Quebec Savings Banks Act.
An Act respecting the Revised Statutes of Canada.
An Act to amend The Veterans Insurance Act.
An Act to -amend The Veterans Rehabilitation Act.
An Act to authorize the provision of moneys to meet certain capital expenditures made and capital indebtedness incurred by the Canadian National Railways System during the calendar year 1948, -and to authorize the guarantee by His Majesty of certain securities to be issued by the Canadian National Railway Company.
An Act to amend The War Veterans' Allowance Act, 1946.
An Act to amend the Yukon Quartz Mining Act.
.An.Act to provide for the Investigation, Conciliation and Settlement of Industrial Disputes.
An Act to amend The Dominion Elections Act, 1938.
An Act to amend The Diplomatic Service (Special) Superannuation Act.
An Act to amend the Salaries Act.
An Act to amend the Customs Act.
An Act to amend the Criminal Code.
An Act to amend the Lord's Day Act.
An Act to amend The Agricultural Prices Support Act, 1944.
An Act to amend The Civilian War Pensions and Allowances Act.
An Act to amend the Department of National Defence Act.
An Act to amend the Income War Tax Act. An Act to amend The Manitoba Natural Resources Act.
An Act respecting an Income Tax Agreement between Canada and New Zealand, signed at Ottawa, in Canada, on the Twelfth day of March, 1948.
An Act to amend The Foreign Exchange Control Act.
An Act to amend The Emergency Exchange Conservation Act.
An Act respecting Income Taxes.
An Act for the relief of Florence Joyce West Shannon.
An Act for the relief of Alice Cecilia Anne Magniac Bailey.
An Act for the relief of Valerie Jean Lewis Samson.
An Act for the relief of William Neville Buckingham.
An Act for the relief of Marguerite Elsie D-unan Currie.
An Act for the relief of Ellen Catherine Holder.
An Act for the relief of Doris Amy Peate Taylor.
An Act for the relief of Kenneth Elliott Mitchell.

The Royal Assent
An Act for the relief of Margaret Craig Carmichael Nicholson.
An Act for the relief of Hilda Emily Brown.
An Act for the relief of Joan Ruth Grimble Campbell.
An Act for the relief of Raymond Masse.
An Act for the relief of Barbara Mary Day Duffy.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Dunn.
An Act for the relief of Rena Victoria Rabin Wolfe.	.	.
An Act for the relief of Frederik Smith.
An Act for the relief of William Thomas Wright.	_	.
An Act for the relief of Marie Antoinette Aubut dit Cimon Charron.
An Act for the relief of James Arnold Wells.
An Act for the relief of Magdalena Kleiziute Testart.	_	,
An Act for the relief of Hazel Shirley Elizabeth Hart Layton.
An Act for the relief of Irene Morgan Neilson.
An Act for the relief of Elerick Montgomery Barton.
An Act for the relief of Adelaide Margaret Munn Bain.
An Act for the relief of Gwendolyn Beulah Russell Denenfeld.
An Act for the relief of Miriam Salomon Starr.
An Act for the relief of Laura Krause Suffnn.
An Act for the relief of Jean Fullarton Craig Walker.	. .	,	,
An Act for the relief of William Hesketh.
An Act for the relief of Janet Alice Smith Bennett.	,	.
An Act for the relief of Gwendoline Elizabeth Hunt Edmund.
An Act for the relief of Ret a Mabel Welch Gilbert.	.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of Leah Shnmer
Schanker.
An Act for the relief of Doris Mary Stratton Stuart.
An Act for the relief of Hellmut Hans Karl Polcorny.
An Act for the relief of Bella Wine Rapps.
An Act for the relief of Winifred Anthony Leith.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of Eugene Alden
Anderson.	.
An Act for the relief of Shirley Leighton Pawson Milligan.
An Act for the relief of Mary Josephine Ruth Girard Rosenberg.	.
An Act for the relief of Leah Marcelle Pettitt Reeve.
An Act for the relief of Marie Yvette Fran-coise Bayard Savard.
An Act for the relief of Simone Boily White-law.
An Act for the relief of Ernest Alfred Coker.
An Act for the relief of Clarence William Henry Hodgson.
An Act for the relief of Vera May Paulson Ward.
An Act for the relief of Ruth Ethel Attwood McVicar.
An Act for the relief of Henry George Halsey.
An Act for the relief of George Crosby-Wilson Gray.
An Act for the relief of Joseph David Ernest Paul Maysenhoelder.
An Act for the relief of Myrtle Macdonald Heale Daniluk.
An Act for the relief of Robert Grincill Barnet Jones.
An Act for the relief of Gertrude Katherine Margolis Bird.
An Act for the relief of Cecilia Maud Wood Marshall.
An Act for the relief of Beatrice Doris Haggerty Goodier.
An Act for the relief of Joyce Knowles Ledoux.
An Act for the relief of Robert Ernest Beadie.
An Act for the relief of Grace Davie Park Parr.
An Act for the relief of Jeanne Crete Benoit.
An Act for the relief of Sarah Cummings Menzies Carlin.
An Act for the relief of Annie Goldenberg Schulman.
An Act for the relief of Clarice Jean Field Campbell.	_	*	_
An Act for the relief of Georgina Claire Williscroft Bovard.	_
An Act for the relief of Saul Jack Costin.
An Act for the relief of Mary Shore Bernstein.
An Act for the relief of Saul Ettinger.
An Act for the relief of Lloyd Arthur Davies.
An Act for the relief of Alfred Keeley.
An Act for the relief of Marie Albina Ethel Dubois Howick.
An Act for the relief of Ignaty (Ignas) Sokolovsky.
An Act for the relief of Laura Grace Hanley Huggenberger.
An Act for the relief of Eva Wolfoviteh Zlotv, otherwise known as Eva Wolfoviteh Gold'.	.	.	.
An Act for the relief of Sheila Lightstone Marcus.	,
An Act for the relief of Lea Alvina Mary Boulay Orr.
An Act for the relief of Armand Lapierre.
An Act for the relief of Georgette Ruth Cote Geller.	„ .	,	,
An Act for the relief of Mary Elizabeth Ell wood Blackburn.
An Act for the relief of Annie Elisabeth Horseman Charters.
An Act for the relief of Sarah Ann Older
An Act for the relief of Anna Martha Koko-jachuk Waugh.
An Act for the relief of Elsie Mark Farley.
An Act for the relief of Lela May Begley Hall.
An Act for the relief of Marguerite Isaacs Katz.
An Act for the relief of Delilah May Jacobs Button.
An Act for the relief of Ruth Shkurnik Gilbert.
An Act for the relief of Goldie Tessler Wise.
An Act for the relief of Martha Norman McCairns.
An Act for the relief of Marien Rita Kendall O'Donahoe.
An Act for the relief of Gertrude Mae McLean Cole.
An Act for the relief of Freda Gertrude Parkes McMillan.
An Act for the relief of Alma Petrides Prysky.
An Act for the relief of Jean MacDonald Di Falco.
An Act for the relief of Betty Yossem Edel-stein.
The Royal Assent
[Stage Direction]
An Act for the relief of Leonard Carlton Matthews.
An Act for the relief of St. Kilda McKay McLean Anderson.
An Act for the relief of Nellie Polistuck Levac.
An Act for the relief of Ellen Rose Gray Lawson.
An Act for the relief of Frieda Kimelfild
Solomon.
An Act for the relief of Gordon Merrill Fuller.
An Act for the relief of Phyllis Joyce Brad-field Ainsworth.
An Act for the relief of Michael Charles Parr.
An Act for the relief of Edna Birch Drimer.
An Act for the relief of Elinore Oakes Forgues.
An Act for the relief of Mary Gwozdecka Carter.
An Act for the relief of Ralph Woodall.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Onfroy Pilon.
An Act for the relief of Thelma May Heggie May.
An Act for the relief of Molly Renetta Fry Bist.
An Act for the relief of Patricia Potter Parker.
An Act for the relief of Helen May Smith Saunders.
An Act for the relief of Jean Duncan Girard.
An Act for the relief of Evelyn Sylvia Jones Bowen.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Eugene Ernest Bourbonnais.
An Act for the relief of Mildred Frances Batten Gzowski.
An Act for the relief of Irene Nellie Kon Ballantyne.	_
An Act for the relief of Theophile Gobeille.
An Act for the relief of Violet Mary Cowper Preston.
An Act for the relief of Virginia Grace Borland Langton.
An Act for the relief of Ethelwyn Lillian Flynn Budd.
An Act for the relief of Alfred Winston Savage.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Frances Mary Liddle McClelland.
An Act for the relief of Rose Landes Clopoff.
An Act for the relief of Micheline Desautels Dooney.
An Act for the relief of William Roydon Slator.
An Act for the relief of Marie Eva Thibodeau Buelow.
An Act for the relief of Margaret Sleno Staines.
An Act for the relief of Jean Hume Munro Auburn.
An Act for the relief of Gilles Henault.
An Act for the relief of Edward Gordon Jakeman.
An Act for the relief of Kathleen MeKeown Stevenson.
An Act for the relief of Alice Mary Gallant Currie.
An Act for the relief of Muriel Frances Marks Buchanan.
An Act for the relief of Leona Selma Cutway Hall.
An Act for the relief of Avery Patricia Gill Reinhold.
An Act for the relief of Poppy Catherine Hayaka'wa Smith.
An Act for the relief of Dolores Margaret Paul Warner.
An Act for the relief of Norma Bernstein Levee.
An Act for the relief of Eileen Sophie McNamara Sepchuk.
An Act for the relief of Mary Rowan Young Conway.
An Act for the relief of Ethel Margaret Tweddell Cartmel.
An Act for the relief of Winnifred Audrey Meyer Holton.
An Act for the relief of Chester Adam Hart.
An Act for the relief of Marie Marguerite Cecile Gagnon Lescadres.
An Act for the relief of Samuel Reinhardt Lewis.
An Act for the relief of Ersilia Pace Imonti.
An Act for the relief of Helen Rose Noel Steele.
An Act for the relief of Edith Saltzman Rash-kovan.
An Act for the relief of Ida Malfara Roman-elli.
An Act for the relief of Francis Clyde Peachey.
An Act for the relief of Harriet Dodd Mc-Laehlan Cummings.
An Act for the relief of Phyllis Smith Curtis.
An Act for the relief of Jacqueline Louise Waddington Skinner.
An Act for the relief of George Malouf.
An Act for the relief of Sonja Anna Margaret van der Walde Brown.
An Act for the relief of Richard Edward Welsh.
An Act for the relief of Violet Maude Mitchell.
An Act for the relief of Elsie Williams Lodge.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Albert Aldee Leveillee.
An Act for the relief of Ella Margaret McLaughlin Baisley.
An Act for the relief of Mavis Aurelia Leney Ogilvie Walker.
An Act for the relief of Joanna Wright Farrell.
An Act for the relief of Margaret Patricia Jones Gavey.
An Act for the relief of Selma Rattner Frid-handler.
An Act for the relief of Lueien Menard.
An Act for the relief of Sheila Trench Thomson Ellis.
An Act for the relief of Alexandre Hebert.
An Act for the relief of Anne Greenblatt Pliss.
An Act for the relief of Sonnie Levitt Shereek.
An Act for the relief of James Young.
An Act for the relief of Hazel Violet Camp Mace.
An Act for the relief of Adah Elizabeth Jeffries Heinz.
An Act for the relief of Mabel Findlay Turner Rollo.
An Act for the relief of Anna Dagmar Dahl.
An Act for the relief of Florence Evelyn White Marshall.
An Act for the relief of Kathryn Mae Richardson Rowe.
An Act for the relief of Margaret Dawson Jamieson Turnbull McKay.
An Act for the relief of Margaret Elizabeth Dunn Vezina.

The Royal Assent
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Craig Blair.
An Act for the relief of Charles Henry Ken-nell.
An Act for the relief of Muriel Frances Pratt Fiddes.
An Act for the relief of Leah Zieger Kudenko.
An Act for the relief of Ruth Harris.
An Act for the relief of Eva Booth Morrison McCormick.	.
An Act for the relief of Naomi Evelyn Mas-terangelo Kosenstein.
An Act for the relief of Jean Lauder Rutledge.
An Act for the relief of Henry George Chartier.
An Act for the relief of Francis Russell Stone.	.	__
An Act for the relief of Mathilda Welter Jackson.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Thomson
Mowat.
An Act for the relief of Mary Hrychuk Fleury.
An Act for the relief of Anna Kathleen Burnie Beebe.	.
An Act for the relief of Jenny Muriel Pressley Scott.	.	.	_
An Act for the relief of Mary Pappas Gigantes, otherwise known as Maria Papadatos Gigantes.	.
An Act for the relief of Gilbert Brxnton Campbell.	„ „
An Act	for	the	relief	of	Helen	McGregorHanley.	,,	,An Act	for	the	relief	of	Yudit	Mary	de
Bartok Richardson.
An Act for the relief of Abraham Schechter.
An Act for the relief of Caroline Alice Woods
Mayhew.
An Act for the relief of Giana Stephen Cant-lie Lyman.
An Act for the relief of James Gustov Reed.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Ruth Maitland Harley.
An Act for the relief of Daisy Elizabeth May Fishlock Wallis.
An Act for the relief of Gertrude Agnes Dorothy Cunningham McLarnon.
An Act for the relief of Jeannette Ore Paige.
An Act for the relief of Reva James Nathau-son.
An Act for the relief of Gerald Roderick Bartlett.
An Act for the relief of Dorothy Jardine Palmer Petrie.
An Act for the relief of Nellie Maisie Wing-ham Carphin.
An Act for the relief of Beatrice Gertrude Corbin Simand.
An Act for the relief of Margaret McC-allum Cameron Baird Brine.
An Act for the relief of Leila May Willett Aseah.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Ulrie Stanislas Caron.
An Act for the relief of Edith Elizabeth Walker.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Yvonne	Jeanne
Leslie.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of Bertha	(Brana)
Hindes Ramer.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Ellen Gertrude
Hinks Fairhurst.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Shirley	Marder
Berman.
An Act for the relief of Vera Maude Thayer Gunn.	,
An Act for the relief of Joseph Chiarella.
An Act for the relief of Merle Allene Dalton. An Act for the relief of George Nestor Cloutier.
An Act for the relief of Rufina Olga Soltysik Leshchynski.	. ,
An Act for the relief of Rhea Lillian Appel Ostroff.	,
An Act for the relief of Alice Elizabeth Tucker Shaw.	,
An Act for the relief of Libby Raikles Lerner.	_ ,	.
An Act for the relief of Beatrice Catherine McCabe Sowerby.
An Act for the relief of John Morrell.
An Act for the relief of Lily White Borgan. An Act for the relief of James Donald Bacon. An Act for the relief of Laurel Gwendolyn Wilbancl Walsh.
An Act for the relief of Lillian Eileen Rendle Nadler.	.	.	...	,An Act for the relief of Claire Alice Tucker Vincent.	....	„	,An Act for the relief of Audrey Beryl Fryer. An Act for the relief of Marguerite Pichette Sanzone.	„ _	,	. , -,	.An Act for the relief of Frederick Edward Sherman.	. . . _	, _	,, T „
An Act for the relief of Joseph Leopold Joffre
Viau.	__ „	_
An Act for the relief of Olga Timofy Ewas-
An Act for the relief of Leie Snideman Tuch-sneider, otherwise known by the name of Lilly Schneidman Schneider.
An Act for the relief of William Francis Dunphy.
An Act for the relief of Alice Hoare Dubeau. An Act for the relief of Jennie Leibovitch Margolese.
An Act for the relief of Hugh Cyril Harvey. An Act for the relief of Barbara Yuile.
An Act for the relief of Violet Mae Ruth Johnson Menaker.
relief of John Clayton
An Act for the Sturgeon.
An Act for the Townsend Hawker.
An Act for the relief of Rae Bellam Baron. An Act for the relief of David Ewing Jackrelief of Alice Deborah
auii.
An Act for the relief of Olive Turnidge Burns Turner.
An Act for the relief of Dorothy June Wilson Weedmark.
An Act for the relief of Kate Henny Wacker Prengel.
An Act for the relief of Jeannette Racine Garneau.
An Act for the relief of Gladys Gwendolyn Goode Buttress.
An Act for the relief of Gladys Victoria Lewis White.
An Act for the relief of Madge Reynard Lambton.
An Act for the relief of Cornelia Barendrecht Nickel.
An Act for the relief of Paul Charbonneau.
An Act for the relief of Samuel Lankszner.
An Act for the relief of Audrey Maude Victoria Giles Findlay.
An Act for the relief of George Elias Heyden-reich.
The Royal Assent
[Stage Direction]
An Aet for the relief of Guiseppina Cannuli Catalfamo.
An Act for the relief of Ann Laurie Willett Allan.
An Aet for the relief of Leon Schechter.
An Act for the relief of Beatrice Evelyn Tutill Bobinsky.
An Act for the relief of Una Mary Phillips Slavin.
An Act for the relief of Margaret Laidley Lawrie Burke.
An Act for the relief of Albert Kenworthy.
An Act for the relief of Esther Leibof Kaufman.
An Act for the relief of Harold Clarence Simkin.
An Act for the relief of Winnifred Emily Ford Salmon.
An Act for the relief of Arthur Herbert John Louth.
An Act for the relief of Frank Potts.
An Act for the relief of Kenneth Wright Williamson.
An Act for the relief of Ida Goldman Adel-stein.
An Act for the relief of George Cohen.
An Act for the relief of Katharine Lillian Cornish Mullin.
An Act for the relief of Orville Lester Bennett.
An Act for the relief of May Holmes Martin.
An Act for the relief of Georgette Mathias.
An Act for the relief of Gladys Odella Sweet Elliott.
An Act for the relief of Robert Charles Dela-fosse.
An Act for the relief of Adelaide Jardine McDonald.
An Act for the relief of Edith McLaehlan Ward.
An Aet for the relief of Eva Lamothe Paquin.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Iris Lobar Kmnon.
An Act for the relief of Jeanne Obodofsky Newton.
An Aet for the relief of Philip Sidilkofsky.
An Aet for the relief of Rhoda Marjorie Beacom Sadler.
An Aet for the relief of Becky Herscovitch Moscoviteh.
An Act for the relief of Veronica Conriclc Pelley.
An Act for the relief of William Bryan Hazel.
An Act for the relief of Victorien Tremblay.
To these bills the royal assent was pronounced by the 'Clerk of the Senate in the following words:
In His Majesty's name the Right Honourable the Deputy Governor General doth assent to these bills.
Then the Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons addressed the Right Honourable the Deputy Governor General as follows:
May it please Your Honour:
The Commons of Canada have voted supplies required to enable the government to defray certain expenses of the public service.
In the name of the Commons, I present to Your Honour the following bill:
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1949.
To which bill I humbly request Your Honour's assent.
To this bill the Clerk of the Senate, by command of the Right Honourable the Deputy Governor General, did thereupon say:
In His Majesty's name, the Right Honourable the Deputy Governor General thanks his loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence, and assents to this bill.

[Stage Direction]
After which the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to close the fourth session of the twentieth parliament of the Dominion of Canada with the following
speech:
Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
World conditions continue to occasion anxiety. Instead of the closer co-operation which had been hoped for between all nations, the cleavage betwreen certain nations of eastern Europe and nations of the western world has become increasingly marked. The sense of danger has led, on the part of free nations, to the establishment and promotion of regional associations to ensure their joint security and well-being. Canada has continued, as opportunity has afforded, to further effective organization for international peace and security. My ministers have made clear our country's intention to assist in maintaining a preponderance of strength on the side of the preservation of freedom.
The delay in restoring production in Europe and Asia has resulted in an unprecedented demand for commodities from the western hemisphere. This demand has had an inflationary effect on world prices. Higher world prices have been reflected in rising domestic prices. The effect of this on the cost of living has been of increasing concern to consumers.
While shortages of food and other supplies to meet the demand abroad and at home have resulted in increased prices, production in Canada, to meet this demand, has led to .a degree of employment and prosperity not hitherto experienced.
My ministers are of the opinion that widespread controls of prices, so necessary at a time of war, would prove prejudicial if maintained indefinitely in time of peace. The controls made necessary by war have accordingly been progressively removed. As a means of resisting inflationary pressures, certain controls have been continued in this transitional period.
The whole question of prices and the cost of living has been debated at length in both houses of parliament. It has been the subject of detailed investigation by a select committee of the House of Commons. The investigation has had a restraining effect upon unjustifiable increases in prices. The report of the committee deserves wide public attention. The government will give most careful consideration to its representations.

Governor General's Speech
The inability of Canada's European customers to pay for their imports resulted, dnring 1947, in a serious depletion of our reserves of United States dollars. To meet the critical situation occasioned by the shortage of United States dollars to pay for our vastly increased imports from that country, it became necessary to impose drastic and unpopular temporary restrictions on our trade. You will recall that the consideration of measures for this purpose necessitated beginning the session early in December. Debate on these measures occupied a large part of its earlier months.
It is gratifying to note that the measures taken have helped not only to stop the depletion, but to replenish Canada's reserves of United States dollars. The implementation by the United States of the European Recovery Program will contribute materially to the same end. As our reserves increase, and our trade is brought into better balance, restrictions will be progressively removed. A permanent solution of our exchange problem depends, however, upon the revival of world trade.
While much of your .time has been devoted to a consideration of economic and financial problems arising almost exclusively out of abnormal world conditions, you have been careful to give the necessary attention to those matters with which, in ordinary times, parliament would be concerned.
Among measures related to agriculture, an international wheat agreement has been approved. Minimum prices for wheat and other agricultural products have been increased. The period during which agricultural prices may be supported has been extended. Provision has been made for the reclamation of marsh lands in the maritime provinces.
In the field of immigration, the movement of desirable immigrants from the United Kingdom and western Europe as well as from the displaced persons camps has been accelerated. A large number of close relatives of persons residing in Canada have been admitted, and provision has been made to hasten the admission of others.
In the field of industrial relations, legislation lias been enacted respecting the investigation, conciliation and, settlement of disputes in industries over Which parliament has jurisdiction. It is hoped that this legislation will provide a model throughout Canada for legislation respecting industrial disputes. Provision has been made for the payment of larger benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act. The scope of the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act has been widened.
With respect to the affairs of veterans and their dependents, a thorough study of existing legislation and related matters has been made by a select committee of the House of Commons. The veterans charter has been agnended in the light of the experience of the past three years. Pensions of disabled veterans and of pensioned dependents have been increased. Larger allowances have been provided for married veterans in training. Other veterans' benefits have been broadened.
The welfare of Indians has been the subject of careful study by a select joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons. The committee continued and completed the examination of the Indian Act begun in 1946.
In relation to the housing problem, it is to be noted that more houses were built in 1947
than in any previous year. The National Housing Act has been amended to assist in meeting the need for rental housing. Provision, on a substantial scale, of quarters for servicemen and their families is contributing materially to the total available housing accommodation.
A most significant advance in the government's policy for the establishment of a national minimum of social security and human welfare has been the development, in the present session, of a national health program. Provision has been made on a generous scale for annual grants to the provinces, over a period of years, to assist in the development of health plans and in the improvement of existing health services in both urban and rural areas. The health grants will be of immediate benefit in making possible much needed increased hospital facilities throughout Canada, as well as in the prevention and treatment of disease. The grants also constitute an essential prerequisite to the establishment of a nation-wide system of health insurance.
Other important measures enacted during the session were bills respecting the Canada Shipping Act, the Board of Transport Commissioners, the Dominion Elections Act, the revision and simplification of the Income Tax Act, the Criminal Code and Prison Reform, an improved pension plan for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the creation of a Hydro Electric Power Commission in the Northwest Territories.
Members of the House of Commons:
I thank you for the provision you have made for all essential services.
You will be gratified that an unprecedented surplus of revenues over expenditures has made possible considerable reductions both in the national debt and in taxation. The sales tax on virtually all types of food has been removed. A further exemption in personal income taxes has been granted for persons over sixty-five years of age. Estates up to a value of $50,000 have been freed of dominion succession duties.
Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
On July 1, the Post Office Department will inaugurate, at ordinary first-class rates, an airmail service which, as respects the delivery of letters, will, under normal conditions, reduce the distance from one end of Canada to the other to less than twenty-four hours.
As you are aware, floods in the Fraser valley of British Columbia recently reached the proportions of a national disaster. In coping with the appalling situation thereby created, there has been the closest co-operation between the federal government and the provincial and local authorities. I should like to express my appreciation of the prompt and effective measures taken by the armed services, the civil authorities, and the citizens of the province in meeting the emergency. I should like also to thank you for the financial provision you have made to assist in relief and rehabilitation, and in the constructive work of repairing the dykes.
The approval given by both houses of parliament to a planned development of the national capital, and the provision you have made for necessary improvements, will help to ensure continuity in the capital's development in a
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Finance-Legislation
manner which will have regard to its position in the present, and to its probable needs in years to come.
Today there is no country in a more fortunate position than our own; nor has Canada, at any time, enjoyed a higher place in the regard of the nations of the world. May Divine Providence continue to bless our country, and to guide the Parliament of Canada in all its deliberations.
This concluded the fourth session of the twentieth parliament.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:
Auditor General's Office-48. Salaries and expenses of office, $533,293.

[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-
Wartime prices and trade hoard
[Stage Direction]
87.	Administration, $3,990,040.
88.	Commodity prices stabilization corporation, $18,000,000.
Employees plan-
89.	For purchase of Canada savings bonds

administration, $159,525.
90.	To provide, subject to the approval of the treasury board, for replacement of bonds lost in mails and for reimbursement of accounts incorrectly ehai'ged with repayments, $5,000-.
91.	To provide for expenses of the cabinet committee on dominion-provincial relations, $30,000.
92.	To provide for the payment of premiums on Dominion of Canada sterling securities, $20,000.
93.	To provide, subject to the approval of the treasury board, for miscellaneous losses arising from the sale or distribution of war savings stamps, war savings certificates, victory' bonds or Canada savings bonds, $3,000.
94.	To provide, subject to the approval of the treasury board, for miscellaneous and unforeseen expenses and for the temporary provision of recoverable advances for working capital purposes and for the readvaneing of any such advances repaid, $1,000,090.
Insurance
[Stage Direction]
114.	Departmental administration, $229,058.
115.	Expenses of work in the interests of fire prevention, $20,869.
General
[Stage Direction]
706.	To provide for the expenses of the comptroller of the treasury's office-further amount required, $264,000.
707.	To provide, subject to the approval of the treasury board, for salaries, reclassifications and increases-further amount required, $5,009,-OOO.
Demobilization and reconversion-
708.	To provide for special works in the national battlefields park, $13,000.
Insurance-
716.	Departmental administration - further amount required, $29,100.
717.	Expenses of work in the interests of fire prevention

further amount required, $5,404. General-
934. To provide for the expenses of a commission to be appointed under part I of the Inquiries Act, to inquire into prices and related subjects, as recommended by the special committee on prices, $50,000.

[Stage Direction]
The Senate-The Speaker of the Senate-
150.	Allow-ance in lieu of residence, $3,000.
151.	General administration, $283,433.
House of Commons-The Speaker of the House of Commons-
152.	Allowance in lieu of residence, $3,000.
Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons-*
153.	Allowance in lieu of apartments, $1,500
154.	General administration-estimates of the clerk, $686,340.
155.	Estimates of the Sergeant-at-Arms, $430,300.
1'56. Subscriptions to publications of the Empire Parliamentary Association to be distributed to members of the House of Commons, $2,800.
157.	To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act or the provisions of the Senate and House of Commons Act respecting the independence of parliament, for payment out of the consolidated revenue fund to each member of the House of Commons appointed by the governor in council to be a parliamentary assistant (which appointment shall not render such member ineligible or disqualify him as a member of the House of Commons) to assist a minister of the crown in such manner and to such extent as the minister may determine and to represent his department in the House of Commons in the absence of the minister therefrom, a salary of four thousand dollars per annum and pro rata for any period less than a year, $56,090.
General-
158.	Printing of parliament, including salaries of staff of the joint distribution office, $200,000.
Library of parliament-
159.	General administration, $104,033.
Pensions and other benefits-
160.	Pension to the unmarried sister of the late Colonel Harry Baker, M.P., $709.
The Senate
[Stage Direction]
734.	To provide for the payment of the full sessional indemnity for the session of 1947-48 to members of the Senate for days lost through absence caused by public business, by illness, or on account of death. Payments to be made as the treasury board may direct, $21,000.
735.	To provide, notwithstanding anything contained in the Senate and House of Commons Act, for the payment to each member of the Senate who attended the second part of the present session which resumed on January 26, 1948, following the Christmas adjournment of parliament on December 19, 1947, and ended

Supply-Transport
on March 24, 1948, of an amount representing the actual transportation and living expenses of such member while on the journey between Ottawa and his place of residence after the Easter adjournment of parliament on March 24, 1948, and on the return journey from his place of residence to Ottawa at the end of the recess which commenced on that date, or at any other one time during the present session, $5,000.
House of Commons-
736.	General administration-estimates of the Clerk-further amount required, $108,000.
737.	Estimates of the Sergeant-at-Arms-further amount required, $20,600.
738.	To provide for the full sessional indemnity to members of the House of Commons- days lost through absence caused by illness, official public business, or order of the house, or on account of death during the present session-notwithstanding anything to the contrary in chapter 147 of the revised statutes, 1927. an act respecting the Senate and House of Commons, or any amendment thereto. Payments to be made as the treasury board may direct, $15,090.
739.	To provide, notwithstanding anything contained in the Senate and the House of Commons Act, for the payment to each member of the House of Commons who attended the second part of the present session which resumed on January 26. 1948. following the Christmas adjournment of parliament on December 19, 1947, and ended on March 24, 1948, of an amount representing the actual transportation and living expenses of such member while on the journey between Ottawa and his place of residence after the Easter adjournment of parliament on March 24, 1948, and on the return journey from his place of residence to Ottawa at the end of the recess which commenced on that date, or at any other one time during the present session, $14,000.
740.	To provide for the Canadian share of expenses of the empire parliamentary association, $7,200.
741.	To provide for an annual allowance to the deputy chairman of committees, $2,000. General
[Stage Direction]
742.	Printing of parliament, including salaries of staff of the joint distribution office-further amount required, $60,000.
Library of parliament-
743.	General administration-further amount required, $12,700.
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Canal service
[Stage Direction]
890. Canals-operation	and	maintenancefurther amount required, $55,000.
801. Canals-construction and improvements- further amount required, $1,418,815.
Marine service-
892.	Marine service steamers, including icebreakers-maintenance, operation and repairs- further amount required, $281,459.
893.	Construction, maintenance and supervision of aids to navigation, including salaries and allowances to lightkeepers-further amount required, $111,950.
894.	Administration of pilotage, including authority for temporary recoverable advances; contributions, and the operation and maintenance, as required, of necessary pilot vessels in certain pilotage districts-further amount required, $15,000.
895.	Life saving service, including rewards for saving life-further amount required, $6,000.
896.	Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping-further amount required, $26,200.
897.	To provide towards the construction of a lighthouse supply and buoy vessel for the east coast [DOT]- capital 

 further amount required, $800,000.
898.	To provide towards the construction of a lightship for the port of Saint John, N.B.- capital-further amount required, $450,000.
899.	To provide towards the construction of a lighthouse supply and buoy vessel for the west coast-capital

further amount required, $100,000.
Canadian Maritime Commission-Mail Subsidies and Steamship Subventions-Eastern
Local Services-
900.	Ile-aux-Coudres and Les Eboulements, service, between-further amount required $12,500.
Railway service
[Stage Direction]
901.	Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals-construction and improvement of terminal facilities-capital-further amount required, $600,000.
902.	To provide for the construction of an icebreaker-railway car-highway vehicle-passenger ferry vessel for the Prince Edward island car ferry service-capital, $534,178.
903.	Canadian Government Railways-construction and improvements of drainage works at Fairview subway, Halifax. N.S.-capital- further amount required, $25,000.
Maritime Freight Rates Act-
904.	Additional amount in excess of the sum of $4,280,000 already appropriated to authorize and provide for the payment from time to time during the fiscal year 1948-49 to the Canadian National Railway Company of the difference (estimated by the Canadian National Railway Company and certified by the Auditors of the said Company to the Minister of Transport as and when required by the said Minister) occurring on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and the normal tolls (upon the same basis as set out in Section 9 of the said Act with respect to companies therein referred to) on all traffic moved during the calendar year 1948 under the tariffs approved on the Eastern Lines (as referred to in Section 2 of the said Act) of the Canadian National Railways- further amount required, $520,000.
905.	Additional amount in excess of the sum of $1,000,000 already appropriated to provide for payment from time to time during the fiscal year 1948-49 of the difference (estimated by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada and certified by the said Board to the Minister of Transport, as and when required by the said Minister) occurring on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and the normal tolls (referred to in Section 9 of the said Act) on
Supply-Agriculture
[Stage Direction]
all traffic moved during the calendar year 1948 under the tariffs approved by the following companies: Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway; Canadian Pacific Railway, including: Fredericton and Grand Lake Coal and Railway Company and New Brunswick Coal and Railway Company; Cumberland Railway and Coal Company; Dominion Atlantic Railway; Maritime Coal Railway and Power Company; Sydney and Louisburg Railway; Temiseouata Railway Company-further amount required, $150,000.
Pensions and other benefits-
906.	Amount required to pay pensions at the rate of $300 per annum to former pilots: Joseph Asselim-Jurther amount required, $300.
907.	To authorize payment from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to Colonel J. A. Cross, former Chief Commissioner, Board of Transport Commissioners, or his legal representatives, of an annuity at the rate of $4,800 payable monthly to commence on July 1, 1948 and to continue for a period of five years from that date, $3,600.
Air service-
908. Air service	administration-further amount required, $80,800.
Civil aviation division-
909.	Control of civil aviation, including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder-further amount required, $17,140.
Airways and Airports
[Stage Direction]
910.	Construction and improvements, including radio facilities-capital (revote $317,450- further amount required, $2,086,667.
Operation and Maintenance'-
911.	Civil aviation services-further amount required, $218,430.
912.	Radio aviation services-further amount required, $41,480.
913.	Airway and airport traffic control-* further amount required, $70,500.
914.	Grants to organizations for the development of civil aviation in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $30,000.
915.	Contributions, subject to the approval of the governor in council, to assist municipalities to improve existing airports, the sites of which have been provided by such municipalities, $164,000.
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Administration service-
671.	Departmental administration - further amount required, $26,322.
Science service-
672.	Science service administration-further amount required, $243,116.
673.	Animal and poultry pathology-further amount required, $26,266.
674.	Botany and plant pathology-further amount required, $80,363.
675.	Agricultural chemistry-further amount required, $39,361.
676.	Agricultural entomology-further amount required, $104,901.
677.	Forest entomology-further amount required, $324,302.
678.	Plant protection-further amount required, 28,010.
Experimental farms service-
679.	Central Experimental Farm-further amount required, $61,400.
680.	Branch farms and stations and illustration stations-further amount required, $371,835.
Production service-
Health of animals-
681.	Compensation for animals slaughtered- further amount required, $500,000.
682.	To provide for payment of compensation to owners of animals affected with diseases coming under the operation of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, which have died or have been slaughtered under circumstances unprovided for under the above act and regulations thereunder, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $694.
683.	Live stock and poultry-further amount required, $160,020.
_ 684. Plant products-seeds, feeds, fertilizers, insecticides and fungicides control-further amount required, $35,000.
686.	Grants to fairs and exhibitions, under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council and subject to allocation by the treasury board-further amount required, $45,000.
Marketing service-
686.	Dairy products-further amount required, $7,000.
687.	Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, and grants, in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $544,717.
688.	Fruit, vegetables and maple products, and honey-further amount required, $1,775.72.
Special-
689.	To provide for assistance to the province of Nova Scotia in the removal of aged apple trees and of least desirable varieties in Nova Scotia under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council, $506,600.
690.	Amount required to recoup the agricultural prices support account to cover the net operating loss of the agricultural prices support board during the fiscal year 1947-48, $1,061,353.30.
Demobilization and reconversion
[Stage Direction]
691.	Freight assistance on western feed grains including outstanding claims under the feed grain payment policy1-further amount required, $13,600,000.
692.	Production assistance on agricultural lime for soil amendment purposes, $60,000.
Dairy products board-
693.	Purchase of creamery butter to support the market at minimum prices subject to the approval of the governor in council, $1,000,600.
Civil service commission-
694.	Salaries and contingencies of the commission-further amount required, $29,180'.
Secretary of State-*
878.	Trade marks branch-further amount required, $14,925.

Supply
879.	Patent division-patent examination unit -further amount required, $145,000.
880.	Copyright and industrial designs division -further amount required, $8,375.

[Stage Direction]
695.	Departmental administration - further amount required, $60,750.
696.	Passport office administration-further amount required, $5,000.
697.	Representation abroad-further amount required, $233,615.
698.	To authorize the acceptance, with the approval of the governor in council in each case, from governments of European countries, in partial or total settlement of claims of the government of Canada against those governments in respect of supplies furnished by Canada and distributed as relief by the combined military authorities to the civilian population of those countries during the period of military operations, of (a) land and buildings to be used for Canadian government offices or residences in those countries, and furnishings therefor, or of local currencies deposited in special accounts to be expended only in payment for such properties and furnishings or alterations or repairs thereto, the expenditure of currencies so deposited for those purposes being hereby authorized, and (b) of local currencies deposited in special accounts and which may be expended only for limited purposes other than those mentioned in paragraph (a), the expenditure thereof to be made only in accordance with authority from parliament, $1.
699.	To provide for relief of distressed Canadian citizens abroad-further amount required, $5,090.
The Canadian government's assessment for membership in the following international or commonwealth organizations-
700.	Commonwealth communications council,
[Stage Direction]
701.	International wheat council, $20,000.
702.	World health organization, $200,000. International joint commission-
703.	To provide for preliminary studies and surveys of the midwestern watershed, $30,000.
Demobilization and reconversion-
704.	To provide for the Canadian government's contribution to the international refugee organization, $5,415,000.
705.	To provide for payment of employees' claims for loss of or damage to personal effects which they were compelled to leave behind when they had to leave their posts, due to war, $51,900.
[Stage Direction]
718.	Remission service-further amount required, $37,360.
719.	Supreme Court of Canada-administration

further amount required, $2,000.
720.	Combines investigation branch-further amount required, $19,000'.
Office of the commissioner of penitentiaries-
721.	Administration of the office of the commissioner of penitentiaries-further amount required, $18,070.
722.	Operation and maintenance of penitentiaries, including administration, construction, purchase of land, supplies, equipment and livestock; maintenance, discharge and transfer of convicts; compensation to discharged convicts permanently disabled while in penitentiaries- further amount required, $426,035.
General-
723.	To provide for expenses of commission
of inquiry into Japanese property claims, $150,000.
724.	To provide for the revision, classification and consolidation of the public general statutes of Canada, $50,000.
725.	To provide for the revision of the criminal code, $25,000.
726.	To provide for expenses in connection with espionage prosecutions, $40,000.
[Stage Direction]
782.	Departmental administration - further amount required, $67,639.
National health branch-
783.	National health branch administration- further amount required, $44,070.
784. Opium and narcotic drugs-further amount required, $19,715.
785.	Laboratory of hygiene-further amount required, $37,353.
786.	Immigration medical inspection-further amount required, $164,891.
787. Child and maternal health-further amount required, $1,150.
788.	Treatment of sick mariners-further amount required, $80,675.
789.	Industrial health-further amount required, $15,897.
Combating venereal diseases-
790. Administration-further	amount required, $1,200.
791.	Assistance to provinces for control of venereal diseases under regulations approved by the governor in council-further amount required, $3,069.
792.	Health insurance studies-further amount required, $20,595.
793.	Hospital designs-further amount required, $3,000.
794.	Mental health-further amount required, $8,025.
795.	Medical services-Indians and Eskimos- further amount required, $906,100.
796.	Civil aviation medicine-further amount required, $2,000.
General health grants-
797.	To provide for the following grants to the provinces, under terms and conditions to be approved by the governor in council-
Health survey grant to assist the provinces in surveying present health services and facilities, including hospitals, and in studying ways and means of improving and extending the same; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $5,000 to each province and the balance according to population but the total payment available to any province in no case to be less than $15,000, $625,000.
Supply
[Stage Direction]
Hospital construction grant to assist the provinces in the provision of adequate accommodation for hospital and health services; to be distributed on the basis of $1,000 per bed for active treatment beds, $1,500 per bed for chronic or convalescent beds, or in the case of other health facilities on an equivalent basis; provinces to match or exceed dominion contribution which shall in no case exceed one-third of total cost, $13,000,000.
General public health grant to assist the provinces in strengthening general public health services; to be distributed on the basis of 35 cents per capita of population, to provinces which maintain at least their present standard and extent of service in this field, $4,395,000.
Tuberculosis control grant to assist the provinces in an accelerated and intensified effort toward the eradication of tuberculosis and to extend progressively the provision of free treatment; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $25,000 to each province and the balance to be divided 50 per cent on the basis of population and 50 per cent on the basis of the average number of deaths from tuberculosis in each province over the previous five years, $3,000,000'.
Mental health grant to assist the provinces in the prevention of mental illness and in extending progressively the provision of free treatment; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $25,000 to each province and the balance according to population, $4,000,000
Venereal disease control, grant to assist the provinces in extending and intensifying their present efforts toward the control of venereal disease; to be distributed according to population, $275,000.
Crippled children grant to assist the provinces in an intensive program for the prevention and' correction of crippling conditions in children, rehabilitation and training; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $4,000 to each province and the balance according to population, $500,000.
Professional training grant to assist the provinces in the training of personnel for public health and hospital staffs; to be distributed on the basis of a flat amount of $4,000 to each province and the balance according to population, $500,000.
Public health research grant to assist the provinces in stimulating and developing public health research, $100,000.
Cancer control grant to assist the provinces in programs for the control of cancer; to be distributed according to population, with any such programs for cancer control to be approved and the cost thereof to be divided equally between the dominion and the province concerned, $3,500,000.
Grant to:
798.	Canadian Paraplegic Association, $15,000.
[Stage Direction]
806.	Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices-further amount required, $155,660.
807.	Air and land mail services-further amount required, $1,500,000.
[Stage Direction]
Federal district commission 
[Stage Direction]
SOS. Maintenance and improvement of grounds adjoining government buildings, Ottawa, and improvements to the parkway system under the control of the federal district commission- further amount required, $24,000.
809.	To authorize the establishment of a special account in the consolidated revenue fund, to be known as the national capital fund, consisting of such amounts as may be appropriated by parliament for the purpose out of which the Minister of Finance may from time to time, on the recommendation of the president of His Majesty's privy council for Canada, pay to the federal district commission amounts to be expended by the approval of the governor in council for the construction, operation and maintenance of works or projects within the national capital district in keeping with an approved general plan for the improvement and development of the national capital and not in the nature of ordinary municipal improvements- amount required for the fund, to be effective July 1, 1948, $2,500,000.
[Stage Direction]
810.	Departmental administration - further amount required, $1,431.
811.	Printing, binding and distributing the annual statutes'-further amount required, $15,000.
812.	Canada Gazette-further amount required, $11,550.
813.	Plant equipment and replacements-further amount required, $295,000.
814.	Distribution of official documents-further amount required, $2,461.
815.	Printing and binding official publications for sale and distribution to departments and the public, $105,000.
DEPARTMENT OF RECONSTRUCTION AND SUPPLY National research council
[Stage Direction]
866.	Salaries and other expenses of the national research council - further amount required, $55,000.
867.	Expanded research on the utilization of farm crops-further amount required, $100,000.
868.	Industrial chemistry building-further amount required, $93,000.
Demobilization and reconversion-
869.	Housing development, including commitments of previous years-wartime housing limited-further amount required, $15,000,000.
870.	To provide for production and transportation subsidies on steel and iron under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council-further amount required, $3,000,000.
871.	To authorize the retention by Canadian Arsenals Limited of an amount not to exceed $2,500,000 as a working capita] fund for the operations of the company, representing advances from prior years' appropriations, $1.
872.	To provide for contribution towards cost of subway at Sudbury, Ontario, to implement agreement entered into in 1939, $100,000.

Supply
[Stage Direction]
873.	General administration-further amount required, $20,866.
874.	Land services-arising out of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, enforcement of federal statutes generally, and other incidental expenses-further amount required, $1,386,201.
875.	Marine services-arising out of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, enforcement of federal statutes generally, and other incidental expenses

further amount required, $94,597.
876.	Aviation services-arising out of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, enforcement of federal statutes generally, and other incidental expenses-further amount required, $6,598.
Pensions and other benefits-
Pensions to families of members of the mounted
police who have lost their lives while on duty:
877.	Mrs. Margaret Johnson Brooke-further amount required, $23.44.
[Stage Direction]
881.	Foreign trade services-export division- further amount required, $40,000.
882.	Trade commissioner service, including payment of compensation to trade commissioners for loss of furniture and effects, under regulations approved by the governor in council-further amount required, $65,400.
883.	Trade publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad-further amount required, $116,000.
884.	Exhibitions generally-further amount required, $125,000.
885.	Canadian International Trade Fair, 1949, including authority to refund from revenue deposits received for contracts for space, $500,000.
Dominion Bureau of Statistics-
886.	Statistics-further amount required, $193,277.
Wheat and grain division-
877. To hereby authorize the Canadian wheat board to buy rapeseed and sunflower seed from producers at a price of six cents per pound for the best grade f.o.b. local shipping point and at appropriate prices for other grades during the period commencing on August 1, 1948. and ending on July 31, 1949; to sell rapeseed and sunflower seed so purchased or the oil extracted therefrom as directed, by the Minister of Trade and Commerce; to enter into such contracts as the said minister may direct for the carrying out of any of these operations, $1.
Canada Grain Act-
888.	Canadian government elevators, including equipment-further amount required, $112,169.
Special-
889.	To reimburse the Canadian Commercial Corporation for expenses incurred in purchasing materials, supplies and equipment, etc., on behalf of the Department of National Defence under chapter 51, statutes of 1947, in the amount of $7,779.23, the balance owing for services rendered in the fiscal year 1947-48, and for the fiscal year 1948-49-further amount required, $87,779.23.
916.	To authorize contribution to Trans-Canada Air Lines for improvements to airways facilities at Kinross airport, adjacent to Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, on the great lakes route, not exceeding $19,000.
917.	To authorize contribution of an amount not exceeding $137,490 to the state of Michigan, U.S.A.. Department of Aeronautics, towards the cost of operation and maintenance of certain airways facilities at Houghton and Grand Marais, Michigan, U.S.A., for use of Canadian aircraft, a® certified to by the controller of civil aviation and approved by the Minister of Transport, $137,490.
Meteorological division-
918.	Meteorological services-further amount required, $165,980.
Radio division
[Stage Direction]
919.	Administration of the Radio Act and regulations-further amount required, $163,400.
920.	Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons and radiotelegraph stations, operation and maintenance

further amonut required, $43,000.
Demobilization and reconversion air service- Civil aviation division-airways and airports-
921.	Operation and maintenance of municipal and other airports

further amount required, $46,004.
922.	Care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields turned over to the Department of Transport-further amount required, $109,068.
Canadian government trans-Atlantic air service-
92-3. To provide for the payment of amounts due to the United Kingdom government for the construction, supply, and installation of Rolls Royce power plants in certain aircraft used in the Canadian Government Trans-Atlantic Air Service, $321,9 84.34.
National Harbours Board-
931. Advances to National Harbours Board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1948 on any or all of the following accounts:
Reconstruction and capital expenditures- Montreal-further amount required, $560,00-0.
[Stage Direction]
113. Office of the secretary to the governor general, including the salary of the secretary to the governor general at $7,600 additional to salary authorized by R.S.C. chap. 182, $111,468.
[Stage Direction]
316.	Salaries of staff and other pay-list items, $93,972.
[Stage Direction]
317.	General administration, $141,978. Federal district commission-
318.	Maintenance and improvement of grounds adjoining government buildings, Ottawa, and improvements to the parkway system under the control of the federal district commission, $231,506.
Supply-Veterans Affairs
[Stage Direction]
319.	Expenses of the national capital planning committee, $100,090.
[Stage Direction]
532. Departmental administration $2,253,340. Demobilization and reconversion-
553. Post discharge rehabilitation benefits, including the training of merchant seamen and salt water fishermen pensioners, $47,509,000. Payments to or for veterans and dependents-
924.	Pensions for disability and death, including pensions granted under the authority of the civilian government employees (war) compensation order P.C. 45/3848 of 22nd November, 1944, which shall be subject to the Pension Act -further amount required, $29,460,000.
925.	War veterans' allowances - further amount required, $4,325,000.
926.	To provide for the payment of grants to veterans settled on provincial lands in accordance with agreements with provincial governments, under section 35 of the Veterans' Land
Act, 1942 (as amended by order in council P.C. 2122, dated 13th April, 1945), and payment of grants to veterans settled on dominion lands, in accordance with an agreement with the Minister of Mines and Resources, under section 35 of the Veterans' Land Act, 1942, as amended (P.C. 1550 of 18th April, 1946)-further amount required, $1,000,000.
927.	To authorize, under regulations to be approved by the governor in council, reduction of indebtedness to the director of soldier settlement, of a settler under the Soldier Settlement Act, in respect of a property in his possession, the title of which is held by the director, by an amount which will reduce his indebtedness to an amount in keeping with the productive capacity of the property and his ability to repay his indebtedness to the director, $150,000.
928.	Post discharge rehabilitation benefits, including the training of merchant seamen and salt water fishermen pensioners-further amount required, $5,632,500.
929.	Hospital accommodation and facilities- further amount required, $850,000.