1942-05-15

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. ROY (Gaspe):: Mr. Speaker, in
view of the close proximity of the coast where enemy submarines are now operating, and by reason of particulars I possess and desire to share with the house, but which it would not be wise to disclose publicly, I would ask the government as the representative of the constituency in the vicinity of which these enemy submarine activities are taking place that an immediate secret session of the house be held to consider these most important war developments which are taking place as far as 300 miles within our Atlantic border. These events are of such gravity that it seems to me that the people's representatives should be made aware of all details concerning the attacks and be given an opportunity to take part in deliberations on the means to protect our threatened country.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, my hon.
friend could hardly expect the government to regard what he has just stated as a question, but I shall be pleased to read what he has said in Hansard, and I can assure him that it will be carefully considered.


Mr. M. J. COLD WELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: I think the hon. gentleman is
asking for a secret session of the house at which he can divulge some information which he has in his possession. It seems to me that in view of the circumstances it might be wise for the government to grant his request.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The matter
will have to be considered in the light of what a secret session would involve. My attention has just been drawn to the fact that the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Roy) mentioned that he had some information that he wished to impart in a secret session. Might I suggest to him that he give the information immediately to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald). That will assist the government in reaching a conclusion as to what further steps should be taken.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: I shall forward my information
to the minister, but I would still appreciate the holding of a secret session, as there are many things which should be discussed by the house.
fcMr. Chairman.]
1941-42 VICTORY LOAN
On the orders of the day:


Hon. W. E. ROWE (Dufferin-Simcoe):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a correction in the report of my speech last night. I am not suggesting that it is the fault of our efficient Hansard reporters, but at page 2442 of Hansard I am reported as having said that, according to a press report, in the last victory loan "one out of 6-5" of Canada's population purchased bonds whereas in the first victory loan in June, 1941, "one out of every 12-02" bought bonds. What I intended to say was that in the last victory loan 6-5 per cent of our population purchased bonds whereas in the previous sale of victory bonds 12-02 per cent of our population bought bonds.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, May 14, consideration in committee of a resolution to provide sums not exceeding $2,000,000,000 for the year ending March 31, 1943, for granting to his majesty aid for national defence and security-Mr. Ilsley- Mr. Bradette in the chair.

Mr. HOWE:: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the discussion initiated last evening by the hon. member for Lake Centre as to the director-general of aircraft production, it would appear that the aircraft industry has been in convention in Ottawa yesterday and to-day. and they have sent me a document which I should like to read to the house and place on Hansard. It is dated May 15, 1942, and reads:
Representatives of every phase of the aircraft industry in Canada, assembled in convention at Ottawa, do hereby unanimously resolve that:
1.	They are familiar with the facts connected with the organization of the morale-building campaign, which has resulted in the setting up of a series of advisory committees from coast to coast, consisting of citizens of the highest standing in their communities, and are satisfied that there have been no improper actions taken, and that Mr. E. G. Hirst has received no direct or indirect benefit from his activities in connection with this matter.
2.	They consider this activity to be a well-planned effort to build up and maintain the morale of all workers in the aircraft industry and that its continuance is a vital necessity, in the national interest.
3.	That whereas in the past, this activity has had to be carried on in a somewhat informal manner, funds should be provided to enable it to continue on a formal basis.
4.	They wish to bring to the minister's attention that Ralph P. Bell, as Director-General of Aircraft Production of the Department of

Munitions and Supply, and his organization, have brought the aircraft industry in Canada from a low condition to its present high standard.
5.	That Mr. Bell has given unsparingly of his time and energy to this important phase of the war effort and that he has set a standard of patriotic devotion and duty which is an inspiration to all who have contact with him. Canadian Pratt & Whitney Aircraft Co. Ltd., James Young, President.
Noorduyn Aviation Ltd.,
R. B. C. Noorduyn, Vice-Pres. and General Manager.
Canadian Wright Ltd.,
D. M. Martin, Manager and Director.
Clark Ruse Aircraft Ltd.,
J. C. Ruse, President.
Reliance Aircraft Co. Ltd.,
J. J. Morch, President.
Fairchild Aircraft Ltd.,
H. M. Pasmore, President.
National Steel Car Corpn.,
R. J. Magor, President.
Canadian Pacific Air Lines Ltd.,
T. W. Siers, Overhaul Superintendent. Canadian Car & Foundry Co. Ltd.,
Y. M. Drury, President.
British Aeroplane Engines Ltd.,
H. Y. Wright.
Coates Limited,
C. P. Coates.
De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Ltd.,
W. J. McDonough.
Trans-Canada Air Lines,
Jas. T. Bain.
M & C Aviation Co. Ltd.,
R.	Mayson, President.
Canadian Vickers Limited,
B. M. Franklin, Manager, Aircraft Division. Boeing Aircraft of Canada Ltd.,
S.	Burke, President.
Prairie Airways Ltd. (Aircraft Division),
H. H. Burke.
Aircraft Repair Ltd.,
W. L. Brintnell, President.
Standard Machine Works,
Chas. F. Pearce.
Aviation Electric Ltd.,
A. Bandi, President.
MacDonald Bros. Aircraft Ltd.,
Grant MacDonald, President.
This document I think shows definitely that Mr. Bell has been proceeding along the right lines, although his methods in this instance do not commend themselves to myself, or I believe to the house. Apparently there was no doubt that the industry were fully agreed that an officer of the type appointed by Mr. Bell was necessary, and that the organization which is being built up by this officer has been doing most efficient work. You will notice that all firms in the aircraft industry urge that the work be not discontinued, but rather formalized and carried on in an expanded way.
I noticed in reading Hansard that the suggestion was made last evening that Mr. Hirst received a salary from the industry which was charged indirectly to the government.
War Appropriation-Supplies


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: No, no; nobody said that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think I should make it
clear that he has received only out-of-pocket
expenses.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Nobody said he was receiving a salary. What was said was that he was being reimbursed by business.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member for Lake Centre made a remark which led me to believe that that was meant.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Nobody said that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In any case I want to make it clear that he received no salary and no indirect pay through advertising.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: So far as I am concerned there is no argument about the fine work that is being done and has been done by Mr. Bell. But the minister in bringing this matter up again has not answered the contention which I made last evening that the action taken by the department in this matter was improper. Only a few moments ago I received a telegram which bears out the contention of my leader last evening when he referred to the dangers inherent in this kind of thing. There has been no answer yet to one question which was asked last evening, and to which I think we should have an answer, arising out of that portion of the letter written by the director of aircraft production to the aircraft companies, which reads:
This sum-
That is, the sum advanced by these companies.
-is, by arrangement with treasury, chargeable to overhead in connection with your aircraft contracts.
Before I read the telegram may I ask the minister now when the arrangement with treasury was made, who made it, and generally all the circumstances touching on that arrangement.
My criticism last night was twofold: first, why conceal this item; second, why not have revealed the circumstances to parliament when the question with regard thereto was first asked? Last night my leader pointed out the dangers inherent in this thing, and he asked the minister specifically whether this was the only case of its kind; are there others? As yet there is no answer to that.
The telegram which I received to-day is dated May 15 and is from Toronto. It reads as follows:
A letter signed "Bell" of Department Munitions and Supply soliciting business for E. G. Hirst was sent not only to aircraft factories but to commercial firms including a
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number of our customers. We have reason to believe we lost at least one substantial contract from an organization which needs government good will because of this letter.
Millways, Toronto.
First, why the concealment; why was not this man shown on the records as receiving a total amount of $9,000 in expenses? It was being paid by the government of Canada. Second, are there others in the same position as Mr. Hirst? Third, why was this course adopted instead of revealing the matter either by showing his name as an employee or showing that his expenses were chargeable to the people of Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it has been made perfectly clear that I did not know of the transaction. As a matter of fact I knew of it about a week after the leader of the opposition knew about it. An employee leaving the company sent a letter to the leader of the opposition, and the new incumbent sent it to me because it had been sent to the leader of the opposition. That is the first I knew of it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I shall have to correct that. Nobody sent me the letter. It was sent to a colleague of mine who brought it to me.
If the minister will allow me-I have to go in a minute-I should like to say that nobody at any time has attempted to disparage Mr. Bell's activity as aircraft director. I want to make that perfectly clear. I agree entirely with the minister that the method he adopted was reprehensible and that the practice should be stopped, and stopped at once, and the money returned to everybody who contributed. If they want to build up a morale campaign let them go about it in the right way and do it in the right way, but do not let the cost of it be smuggled into the expenditures of the taxpayers of Canada under the guise of an addition to overhead. If it is a necessary expenditure, by all means let us make it.
How many other schemes of this kind are being financed indirectly, secretly, by the treasury' of Canada, the taxpayers not knowing the slightest thing about it? If there are any, let us have the names at once; if there are none, then let us know.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no others. I did not know of this one until it turned up by accident, but I do not think that after the impropriety was called to Mr. Bell's attention there will be the slightest possibility that it will be repeated. As I said last night, it was not a matter of charging expenditures to overhead. Instructions had gone out that that should not be done and it has not been done. I think this matter
should be dropped. The only purpose would be further to smear his name across the headlines of the country. It has gone from coast to coast, and I doubt if it adds to the war effort. However, it was done. I made it clear that what was done was done with the acquiescence of the trade, and the results won the endorsement of the trade as indicated by the statement I have put on Hansard.


Mr. MacNICOL:: During the time the Department of Munitions and Supply will be before the committee I am going to try to find out if it is possible, first, to increase aircraft production; second, what the situation is with regard to the production of synthetic rubber; third, what the situation re magnesium metal is; fourth, whether by some means Canada can bring about the production of oil in a big way.
I had intended commencing with No. 1, aircraft production, but in view of what took place yesterday and again to-day I will delay my remarks on that subject and begin by discussing the possibility of producing oil on a large scale in the dominion. I believe that either the branch of the oil controller published a number of advertisements on December 2, or that such advertisements were published on their behalf. I have one here which reads:
The empire's mechanized forces rolling on to victory need oil, war's greatest weapon.
The advertisement illustrates a couple of tanks and is well adapted for attracting the attention of people to the necessity of conserving oil. On September 25, 1941, the director of public information issued a bulletin in which these words appear:
Oil and the war.
"The Battle for Oil" is the title of the latest film release of the national film board. One of the "Canada Carries On" series, it shows the vital part played by gasoline and oil in modern war.
Then the minister's own department on the 12th instant issued a bulletin in which I find these words:
Canada's gasoline inventory is steadily becoming worse.
On March 24, the minister himself made a speech which was reported in the Globe and Mail. I do not know the name of the club or the body whom he addressed, but his speech was reported in the Globe and Mail and he made a frank statement on the subject. He said:
If I tell you frankly that we are likely to lose the war unless we can get enough oil and enough rubber you will understand how very serious our position is.

War Appropriation-Supplies
That was a frank statement which should command the attention not only of the people of Canada but of all those who are interested in the production of oil, which, as I read a moment ago, is the war's greatest weapon. Then in Hansard of November 20, 1940, the minister made a statement which indicated that at that time he had in mind the production of oil in Canada. As reported at page 268 of Hansard of November 20, 1940, he said:
The oil controller first of all addressed himself to the problem of ascertaining the exact position of the petroleum industry in Canada, with a view to assuring an adequate supply of petroleum products for military purposes, and also to determine the production capacity of Canadian sources of supply, which are largely confined to the province of Alberta.
From that it is clearly evident that the subject of oil production has been under the consideration of the minister and his department almost from the beginning. What has been done since that statement was made in 1940 or since the war broke out to bring about the production of oil in Canada on a large scale?
I believe that some time around 1914 oil was discovered in Turner valley. Perhaps it was earlier than that, but that was about the time the first well was tapped. A fine job is being done there. Relatively speaking, it is a small field, comprising about 10,000 acres with a capacity, I am told, of approximately
10,000	barrels an acre or a total capacity of 100,000,000 barrels. Comparatively
100,000,000 barrels would be considered a small oil field, as I say, they are doing a fine job and their oil is good. Their products are good. I have been over the plant, and I think they are producing about 26,000 barrels a day. Naturally, owing to the size of the field, I believe they are proceeding in the right direction in not trying to develop all their oil at once. I believe that during the last few years various oil companies have been drilling in different areas of Saskatchewan, and others in Alberta. Some oil is being developed near the Alberta-Saskatchewan boundary at a place called Vermilion. The quantity produced is not large but it is developing. In Ontario, oil was first sought for in 1859 near Collingwood, but nothing has ever come of it. I am told, however, that recently oil geologists have been in the area again trying to ascertain if there is any source of oil there worth tapping. The counties of Lambton and Kent in the early sixties did produce quite a quantity of oil for those days. I believe it was about 1861 that they commenced producing oil in the county of
Lambton; it spread into the county of Kent, and for three years they produced a total of approximately 3,000,000 barrels of oil. Many lion, members have been through that area and have seen oil-well derricks still standing. They have been standing there for many years. Lately, attempts have been made to tap a few more wells there, and I believe they are producing oil, but not very much.
I am told that at present oil geologists are in New Brunswick, as were oil geologists in 1858 and thereabouts. At that time the place was called Baltimore. I am not just sure of the location. I talked to one engineer who was familiar with the oil shales of New Brunswick, and he said he thought something might come out of investigations there.
Last summer I made a trip to the Peace River area and learned that some years ago, about 1921, oil wells were discovered not very far from the town of Peace River, but not much came of that. I have read the reasons but will not take time to relate them now. From what I read in a letter from Mr. H. A. George of Peace River I would say there is a fair amount of oil in that neighbourhood.
During the last few years oil has been found at Fort Norman on the Mackenzie river and is being produced, although not in a large way. I tried to go to Fort Norman last summer but did not. I expect to go this summer if the house rises in time for me to obtain transportation down the Mackenzie river. The oil wells there produce first-class oil. There is a small refinery there. I believe the product is largely consumed by the mines roundabout. Geologists tell me a large amount of oil is obtainable there.
This brings me to the area about which I desire to speak at some length, the oil sand area at present being developed on the Horse river about a mile and a half from Fort McMurray and extending down the Athabasca river for some sixty miles and on the Clearwater river and the Christine river, but the focal point, as far as I can see from investigations covering some days up and down these rivers, is near Fort McMurray. Later I am going to ask the minister-I will ask it now to give it more emphasis-to request the appointment of a board of engineers from government departments to investigate thoroughly all data pertaining to the oil possibilities of the Athabasca river area, and if they are found to be, as so many say they are, of tremendous importance, that the government take steps to bring about production of oil in that area in a large way. I intend to say more on that later. I know some of the departments, particularly the Department
REVISED EDITIOn
War Appropriation-Supplies

of Mines and Resources, have as capable oil geologists as there are anywhere in America. I have had many conversations with Doctor
S.	C. Ells, and in my opinion there is not a better oil geologist anywhere or one who has made more extensive surveys and studied the subject of production of oil more than Doctor Ells. There are other men maybe as good, but I am better acquainted with Doctor Ells. What I suggest at present is that these men in the government service, who must know whether there is oil in a big way at or along the Athabasca river and how those oil resources can be developed, be asked to promote that development as a board or committee or however the minister decides.
It is no wonder that the oil controller's branch, or whoever publishes the advertisements under that branch, said that oil is war's greatest munition. It is because of that fact and because their oil requirements are so tremendous that the Germans are to-day sending their legions through the Kerch peninsula on their way to the Caucasus. Prior to the war the German requirements were about seventy million barrels a year; to-day they exceed two hundred million barrels, and unless the Germans have a tremendous reserve beyond all conception they must be nearly out of oil. I hope they are. But if they are getting nearly out, that of course would be their incentive in driving toward the Caucasus mountains.
What are our own requirements. The Canadian army is not of very great size yet. It will be larger. But the "Imperial Oil Review" of recent date states that we have 23,500 military vehicles burning gasoline, and they estimate the requirements of Canada's 23,500 vehicles at 100,000 gallons a day, whether they are operating or not. I presume they mean that when those vehicles are operating it will take a great deal more than that, but to lay up reserves they estimate 100.000 gallons a day.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the army in Canada alone, I take it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am saying what the "Imperial Oil Review" states, that Canada's army is rolling along on 23,500 vehicles.


Mr. STIRLING:: In Canada or out?


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not know. They are not rolling much outside yet.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have a far larger number of vehicles overseas with our army.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear that.
That makes the demands on Canada's oil production evidently greater than 100,000 gallons a day. fMr. MacNicol.]


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I want to make it clear that that refers to the figure for Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That means all the more necessity for Canada to obtain oil of its own if it can. The same article states that an infantry division to-day requires 249,000 horsepower, which is twice the horse-power used in the industries of the city of Hamilton, and that an armoured division requires 387,000 horse-power, about the equivalent of that used in Toronto for peak-load light and power. This goes to show that the demand is tremendous and is bound to increase, because we as a country have not yet done anything as far as equipment being in active combat is concerned. When it does get into active combat it will render as good an account of itself as any.
Some days ago I read a statement that the average battleship, 35,000 to 45,000 tons, would require at one refuelling from 750,000 to
1,000,000 gallons of oil. Therefore ships on the water are going to require a tremendous amount of oil.
The other night the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power), whom I always like to see in his seat and to hear when he is piloting his estimates through the house, because he is always so courteous and so willing to answer questions, said that the present air demands for gasoline have increased from $9,000,000 last year-in Canada I presume?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: -to $20,000,000 this year. If we now require $20,000,000 worth a year in Canada, turned into barrels that is quite an item.
In Regina there is a very capable engineer, Mr. C. Gower of Regina, with whom I had the pleasure of being last summer in the Athabasca oil area vicinity, who estimates that the amount of gasoline that will come from 600 barrels of raw oil is 270 barrels. Using that as a basis, it means that $20,000,000 worth of gasoline would be the equivalent of approximately 4,444,444 barrels of oil. That is more than one-half of Canada's production to-day. In other words, approximately one-half of the oil produced in Canada to-day would be required to operate the aeroplanes the minister was speaking about. If he did not include the aeroplanes that are in Europe, then it would be much more. There is a tremendous necessity to use our resources to the utmost.
I referred a moment ago to what the Germans required, 200,000,000 barrels a year.
I have no doubt that Great Britain requires

War Appropriation-Supplies
approximately the same amount. Great Britain has been getting her oil from several sources, the Dutch East Indies, her own supplies in Sarawak, from Burma, Borneo, from Bahrein island, from Iran and Iraq and some from Egypt. What is the position of the oil supplies from these fields to-day? Apart from prosecuting the war, the main reason the Japs went south was the need for oil. Japan produces only about 2,500,000 barrels of oil a year, but it is quite likely that her war machine requires half as much as the German war machine. An additional supply of 75,000,000 to 100,000,000 barrels would be worth while to Japan. What did Japan gain by taking Java, Borneo, Sarawak and Burma? She gained all that production, and if she gets into India she will get a little more. All those supplies are now lost to the allies.
I hope the Germans will not win in their mad race toward the Caucasus but perhaps it would be worth while to conjecture what would happen if they get through. In the Caucasus they would be able to get 225,000,000 barrels a year. If they got that far, it is quite possible they might get into Iran and Iraq, where another 105,000,000 barrels a year would be available. If they got into Iraq, they would probably get Bahrein island, which produces about 7,000,000 barrels a year. Then they might even get into Egypt, where another 6,000,000 barrels a year is produced.
I like to look the situation in the face. If the Germans get all these countries I have just mentioned they will have available 343,000,000 barrels a year which is now available to the allies. The only supplies left to the allies then would be north and south America. On these continents the British have only Trinidad and the Canadian production. The Canadian production now is about 9,000,000 barrels a year, while the Trinidad production is approximately 20,000,000 barrels a year. Outside of that combined production of 29,000,000 barrels a year they would have to go to Venezuela, Peru and the United States. Happily the United States produces more oil than all the rest of the world, her production being something like 1,350,000,000 barrels a year. If Great Britain must rely on the production in Canada and Trinidad, which is only 29,000,000 barrels a year, it is all the more imperative that Canada should produce all the oil possible.
In the early days of the last century and up to now oil came from wells. I remember not so many years ago that gold was taken only from the mouths of rivers, from the sands. Then someone discovered the cyanide
44561-157}
process which permitted gold to be taken out of the rock, and since that time more gold has been produced than in all the world's history. We have some very bright engineers in our departments; some of them may discover a method of extracting oil from sand faster than at present, and this process may have the same effect upon the production of oil from the oil sands as the cyanide process had upon the production of gold from quartz.
During the last two or three years I have read everything I could find about the production of oil from sand, and I consulted with as many engineers as I could come in contact with. Last summer I went to see these oil-sand areas. I like to see things for myself; I never can get very enthusiastic about anything unless I can see it. What did I find? I found a small plant on the Horse river near Fort McMurray. This plant has since burned down, but I believe it has been erected again and is now in operation or will be shortly. Last summer it was producing about 250 barrels a day. These oil-sands are quite black, as hon. members can see from the piece I have in my hand. I was present when this particular piece was blasted. If one holds a piece in his fingers for a moment they become covered with oil. It is made up of millions of minute pieces of sand, with a small film of oil around each piece.
At Fort McMurray the sands are about forty feet thick. The engineers told me, and this has been confirmed by the departmental engineers, that in the immediate vicinity of the plant there are several million barrels of oil that can be taken out by the open cut method. The top soil, which is ordinary dirt, is removed with a steam shovel, and you come at once in contact with a depth of forty feet of solid black oil-sands, every cubic yard of which contains approximately one barrel of prime crude oil.
In order to make sure that it produced prime diesel oil I went down to Great Slave lake and lake Athabasca where they told me that the oil is being used in their diesel engines. The engineers at the mines on Great Slave lake, in the vicinity of Yellowknife, and the engineers in the mines at Goldfields on lake Athabasca, told me that there was no better oil anywhere, and that they had given orders to the producing company to ship them every barrel of oil they could. That convinced me that it was good oil. If it were not, these engineers would not have asked for it. If there were anything wrong with the oil it would ruin the engines. I brought down a small bottle of the diesel oil. You see it is black, but it is mighty good stuff. I also brought down a small bottle of the gasoline. It is amazing, when we realize that gasoline
War Appropriation-Supplies

comes out of a solid black sand like that. This is 70 octane. They can raise it a good deal higher, as other companies do; but they tell me it comes through at about 70. Whether that is so or not, I cannot say; I am just taking their word for it.
This shows, however, that the material is in those sands. The question is as to the quantity and whether it would be worth while for the government to assist somebody in producing oil there in a big way. In reply to a question, I heard the minister say on February 18:
I have a very exhaustive report on the subject of tar sands, and I should be very glad to let my hon. friend have a copy of it. It indicates, however, that the location of the sands and the possibility of development is too remote to be of any great use in this war.


Mr. REID:: Can they produce high-testing
gasoline?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes. What I have read is the minister's opinion, and I find no fault with it; it is not mine. Fort McMurray is 305 miles from Edmonton. By direct pipeline I suppose it is not more than 250 miles. At sixty miles down the river it would be only about 300 miles from Edmonton, and that is not far for a pipeline. It is, in fact, a short pipeline. We are bringing oil now from Oklahoma to Sarnia, a distance of not much less than a thousand miles. The British pipeline from Iran and Iraq to Beirut is not, I should think, any less than a thousand miles.
If we have the heart to produce oil in Canada, and if it is there-and our engineers say it is-then we should be producing it. We are now producing only about 9,000,000 barrels or less a year from all our fields, and I believe we have over 10,000 wells in Canada-or, I should say, we have had that many. I believe there are not as many now, but the fact is that from all our wells in Canada we are now producing about 9,000,000 barrels a year. However, we are buying not less than 50,000,000 barrels a year. A little later on I shall quote a great engineer's statement to the effect that the time may come when the oil wells will stop flowing. Let us remember in that connection that the oil sands would not stop producing their oil. According to our own engineers, their supply is inexhaustible.
What does our own expert, Doctor S. C. Ells, have to say on the subject? May I say in passing that he is one of the best officials with which any government has ever been blessed. I could enlarge upon that statement by saying that the more I meet our permanent civil servants, the more I am convinced that Canada has in her civil service very fine men
fMr. MacNicol.]
and women. They are as good as the best, and thoroughly seized with the desire to serve
Canada.
Doctor Ells says this:
Commencing in 1913-
I believe that is when the doctor commenced to make the investigation.
-the writer undertook an investigation of the bituminous sands of northern Alberta. The results of this work, subsequently extending over a period of some fifteen years, have appeared in numerous publications issued from time to time by the mines branch. The work undertaken and the results obtained, supplemented by laboratory studies by officers of the fuel testing division, may be briefly summarized as follows:
(a)	The general character of the bituminous sand over a large area has been studied and many samples taken. These samples have been analysed and the physical and chemical characteristics of the sand and of the associated bitumen determined.
(b)	Detailed topographical surveys of areas aggregating 1,260 square miles adjacent to Athabasca river and its tributaries have been completed.
That is a fairly extensive investigation. I believe that since that time some 10,000 to
15,000	square miles have been covered. I do not mean that the whole 10,000 or 15,000 square miles are rich in oil, like the sands at Fort McMurray. They are not, in fact; but there is a lot of oil in them. Whereas at Fort McMurray some of the sand fields are only forty feet deep, in other areas they extend to depths of 100, 150 or 200 feet. This goes to show that it is by far the most stupendous oil field in the world.
To quote further from Doctor Ells:
Upwards of 5,000 tons of bituminous sand has been excavated by the mines branch in connection with experimental work, affording information as to the methods best adapted for the mining of this class of material.
That was fairly good ground with which to experiment. At the present time the oil-sand in the area at Fort McMurray, on the Horse river, is being blasted. The engineer in charge while I was there, a man named John Byrum, for whom I developed a warm regard, seemed to be thoroughly posted. He told me that only a period of two minutes elapsed between the time I saw the sand in the pit until I saw the oil being taken off Then, in about twenty minutes the oil is poured back to the refineries, and within seventy minutes it is refined. This goes to show that it is a very rapid process, almost as fast as pumping oil out of a well. I do not want anyone to think I am not proud of our oil wells in Canada, because I am. I would not want anyone to think I am opposed to taking oil from wells, because I am not.

War Appropriation-Supplies
If we have oil in sands, and can produce it, then I maintain we should produce it.
Doctor Ells goes on to say:
A study has been made of a number of processes designed for the recovery of the hydrocarbons from bituminous sand and results indicate that recovery can be readily effected by the use of heated water.
That is the way it is done. It is, in fact, a very simple process. The sand goes into a large revolving tank containing hot water at about ISO degrees. The tank revolves, and the hot water has a disintegrating effect on the oil sand. The product then goes into settling basins where it is again agitated, and in due course the oil comes through. Doctor Ells continues:
In the light of information now available it is clear that bituminous sand should be seriously regarded as an important potential source of solid and liquid hydrocarbons-
And of a long list of chemicals which follows in its wake. One of these chemicals is the ingredient required in connection with the production of synthetic rubber, which I shall discuss at a later stage.
He continues:
Actually it is as yet impossible to estimate accurately the potential production of petroleum
Firoduets that may ultimately become available rom Alberta bituminous sands. It is however known that that area underlaid by bituminous sand is not less than 1,500 square miles and the total area extent of the deposit is probably much greater.
And then the following:
Meanwhile results of field investigations by the mines branch indicate that at least
750,000,000 tons of bituminous sand can be mined by open-cut methods.
All these reports must be available to the minister. Perhaps these are the ones to which he referred the other day. Doctor Ells continues:
On a basis of 12 per cent bitumen content this is equivalent to 90,000,000 tons of bitumen or 500,000,000 barrels.
That has been enlarged to a billion barrels of oil.
Then, Mr. Max Ball, president of Abasand oil company, makes the statement in quoting Doctor Ells that the area contains a hundred billion barrels of oil. He is referring not to the Fort McMurray area, but to the whole area as far as the Peace river. He goes on to quote the United States bureau of mines, which places the figure at 250,000,000,000 barrels of oil. I think I have quoted enough to justify the statement that there is an enormous quantity of oil there, constituting a most valuable resource if a 100 per cent economical method is found to get it out. I make no comment on that, but they say
that they can produce refined oil at $1.36 a barrel at the mines. Then taken out to Edmonton, it might reach a couple of dollars. Perhaps I should not quote these figures because I am not certain of them. Several other authorities have visited the area, including Doctor T. O. Bosworth, who was chief geologist of Imperial Oil, Limited, and he made the following statement:
In the district of McMurray on the Athabasca river, we have the largest natural exposure of oil in the world.^ It is interesting to consider the amount of oil in this territory. For this purpose we will suppose the area to be 15,000 square miles-
That is higher than Doctor Ells' estimate. -and the average thickness fifty feet.
That is a lot of oil. The Alberta government estimates the bituminous sands of northern Alberta to contain 100,000,000,000 barrels of oil, while the United States bureau of mines places the figure at 250,000,000,000 barrels. An engineer named Gustav Egloff, of the Universal Oil Products company, in a speech delivered to the American Institute of Chemical Engineers at Birmingham, Alabama, had this to say:
One of the greatest known hydrocarbon deposits in the world to-day is that of the Canadian Alberta bituminous sands. The known bituminous sand deposits are estimated to contain over 100,000,000,000 barrels of bitumen.
I think I have quoted sufficient to indicate that men who should be competent to judge, including our own engineers, are convinced that there is a very large deposit of oil there. I see my time is about up, and I shall conclude with just one more quotation. Referring to drilling for oil wells, the chief geologist for the Anglo-Iranian Oil company is quoted as saying in January, 1940:
Using all geological and geophysical assistance, the average chance of success cannot be rated on a basis of experience, as better than one in ten. The new interest now being taken by American companies is based on the belief that American oil resources will not stand the present rate of production for many years.
Nobody can tell how long because oil wells give out. Again I would urge the minister to have the best engineers in the government service get together to make a survey and study the possibilities of developing oil in immense quantities from the sands of Alberta. I have talked with a number of them and I know they would be glad to do it. It is, of course, immaterial to me personally who develops these resources. I believe the government engineers should cooperate with the oil producers and say to them: "Here, gentlemen, are our reports." The government should then say to these producers: "We will give you so many square miles of these oil
247S
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resources, and you can go to it and produce the oil."
With regard to getting the oil out, it is not far, only 305 miles, to Edmonton. A pipeline of 250 miles in length would cost about $2,500,000. Again, it is only 800 miles to Prince Rupert. Calgary is only 450 miles away. The oil could be piped to Calgary, it could be pumped to Winnipeg, 700 miles away, and refined there too. The oil could also be taken to Churchill by pipeline; then taken by tankers to Moosonee, at the south end of James bay, and from there it could be brought by pipeline to Toronto, 900 miles away. We have in these oil deposits hundreds of billions of barrels of oil, but even if it were only hundreds of millions it would pay this country to develop these resources and become an exporter instead of an- importer of oil.
One last word, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you for your courtesy. Before this war broke out there was an article in the press which stated that the German government or somebody representing the German government desired to run a pipeline from the oil fields of western Canada to the Pacific coast. Manifestly they had no intention of running a pipeline from Turner valley because no one would put in a pipeline of that length to transport
100,000,000 barrels of oil. I had the good fortune to meet a Mr. Goffatt who told me he had met the German oil geologist who investigated here in Canada after the geologist had just returned from the Athabasca area. They met on the train from Edmonton. During the course of their conversation the German geologist became tremendously excited over the immense possibilities that he saw in that region. That was in 1911 or 1912. The German geologist went back to Germany and came out again to this country in 1914; he was about to plan oil production when the war broke out, and that put an end to the matter as far as the German geologist was concerned. But the point I make is that the German geologist had been searching for oil all over the world and had arrived at the conclusion that this was the greatest deposit of oil anywhere in the world. I am not an oil engineer or an oil geologist, but I am interested in investigating and I do not mind what it costs me to travel in the course of an investigation. The only reason why I am here at all is to try to serve my native land. There is nothing in this personally for me. If I cannot do something for Canada when I am here, I am going to quit this house. I have no interest only to serve the country itself in which I was born.

I do not ask the minister for an answer now, but I do ask him to think over what I have said and look over the reports he has, and then to appoint a board of our own engineers to investigate these resources. If the deposits are there in such immense amounts as we are informed they are, let us take any legitimate means under the sun that are required to bring about the production of oil in Canada so that we may become an exporter instead of an importer of oil, and further, in order that we may be of vital help to the empire in the event of all other sources of oil being cut off except those within the empire itself.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I wish to thank the hon. member for Davenport for the constructive contribution he has made to the debate and for the valuable information he has put on Hansard. The position of oil development within Canada has, of course, been changed considerably by the events of recent months. I think most people had looked upon the tar sands of Alberta as a great reserve of oil for some future period when the more easily accessible oil resources would have been exhausted. But to-day we think of that same area as a source of immediate oil production, provided the problems connected with its development can be solved rapidly and with some degree of certainty.
An intensive study of the tar sands is under way at the present time. That study was organized by my department, and we have interested in it the leading oil engineers of this country, not only men in the public service and on the staff of the national research council, but also oil engineers from industry. We have interested Consolidated Mining and Smelting, who have had a good deal of experience in meeting mining problems in that area.
I may say that the mining of the sand itself is one of the major problems that has not yet been fully worked out. We have asked all these interests to prepare a report for the government and advise whether a development should be undertaken at this time and the extent of development which the conditions would warrant, whether we should proceed with a pilot plant or whether the situation is such that we can immediately develop on a considerable scale. I am expecting the report shortly, and appropriate action will be taken.
The government is also exploring the New Brunswick shale deposits to which reference has been made. The difficulty with this deposit was that until recently it was under the control of private interests. However, the

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New Brunswick government have now secured the title, and the federal government is in partnership with the provincial government in making a thorough exploration of these shales to determine the probable quantity of oil available and the pertinent facts in relation to its development.
Arrangements have been made to develop further the wells on the lower Mackenzie at Fort Norman. Additional wells are being drilled, the refinery capacity is being increased, and a short pipeline is being installed to bring the oil across to the location of the Alaska highway.
There are proceeding with the government of British Columbia conversations which, we hope, will lead to an immediate and thorough exploration of the Peace River block of British Columbia, which is regarded as a very probable source of oil, and which is conveniently located to the railway for use on the Pacific coast.
I mention this to indicate that I share my hon. friend's interest in finding oil within Canada, and we hope that some constructive progress can be made before I report to parliament again.


Mr. McIVOR:: Mr. Chairman, may I first congratulate you upon your gracious act yesterday in giving place to one of the fair ladies of this house? We in this corner say, "Do it again".
Before I came to this house I thought a good deal and said much about public ownership and who should share the profits. I knew then, as I know now, that any enterprise must have four parts: there must be the money or the capital to put into the enterprise; there must be the brains or the management to run it; there must be the men who will do the work, and there must be the consumer. I still believe that the man who toils should have his share of the profit; and my first observation with regard to the Department of Munitions and Supply is that I appreciate very much the way in which they have branched out into public ownership. There was nothing like it before in Canada: we now have full-fledged government owned companies manufacturing munitions, chemicals, aircraft equipment, and building ships. These are known as:
1.	Allied War Supplies Corporation.
2.	Fairmont Company Limited.
3.	Plateau Company.
4.	Small Arms Limited.
5.	Federal Aircraft Limited.
6.	Toronto Shipbuilding Company.
7.	Wartime Merchant Shipping Limited.
8.	Atlas Plant Extension Limited.
9.	Wartime Housing Limited.
10.	Research Enterprises Limited.
11.	Melbourne Merchandising Limited.
12.	Citadel Merchandising Company Limited.
I would say that these are the twelve apostles in pioneering along this line, in doing a job and filling a gap which could not have been filled by private enterprise, and I understand that there is more to follow.
Another thing I like about this department has to do with the announcement which was made the other day when the committee on war expenditures was being set up. The note was sounded, and very clearly, by two ministers, the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) and the Minister of National War Services (Mr. Thorson), that "we have nothing to hide." I am sure the people of Canada welcome that statement.
I wish to make a suggestion which touches a tender spot. Somebody else has thought along the same lines, but perhaps it has not been put forward in the right way; perhaps, too, I may not do so. Near our aeroplane manufacturing plant at Fort William we have across the road a military training centre where there are about 300 men. There are two chaplains, one Protestant and one Roman Catholic, to look after these men. Just across the street is this plant, with about 5,000 men and women. I know that they have in this plant a splendid staff of matrons, good and efficient women. But I do believe that since these men. because of their work, which is done on Sundays as well as week days, are unable to get the benefits which are available to the ordinary citizen, there might be men appointed-call them chaplains if you will- by the Department of National Defence or the government of Canada who would meet these men at the noon hour and talk good Christian democratic common sense to them and give them something to think about which will encourage them to sweat up to their jobs and do the work the minister expects them to do.
Another thing I should like to speak about is the way in which these plants are looked after from headquarters. First, I would mention a small shell factory, the only one which was opened up locally since the war started. It has a contract to turn out 1,000 shells of about fiftyjiounds each a day; it has been turning out l,o00 a day, and those in charge are anxious to extend the plant. Why are they capable of this production? It is because the workers have the will to work and the management have the heart to back up the men in their work. There is thorough cooperation. The only difficulty I ever noticed was when two young ladies of the inspection staff said that they thought they should be paid more money-and I agreed with them. They were getting 33 to 35 cents an hour while other girls were getting 45 cents up,
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and money paid by the government does not go any further than money earned in any other way. However, thanks to the action of the Minister of Labour, as soon as a girl is competent to earn, she will be paid according to her efficiency.
I know something about the car works. I practically grew up with its development. I believe it was in November, 1935, that I received an announcement from the late president that the plant would be opening. Of course I was anxious that it should be opened, because in 1935 we had many idle men; I did everything possible, and I bothered the Minister of Munitions and Supply a good deal. He was always courteous, and just as anxious as I was to have the car works opened. A year later, I believe early in 1937, the plant was being prepared for the building of aeroplanes. There were great difficulties to be overcome. They had great difficulties in the first year or two. It was not much better than a big school training young fellows from Fort William, Port Arthur and the surrounding districts, and they did it well. They wanted to make planes for Trans-Canada Air Lines, and I shall not forget the remarks of the minister when the executive in room 16 met him. He said, "If you can get the right to make a plane that has been tested and tried you will get an order; we are not out to take any risks with Trans-Canada Air Lines." He was wise.
I have found the management of Canada Car most courteous, kind and trustful toward me. In fact, they will allow me to visit that plant any day I have time and they will not send a guard to see that I conduct myself properly. I have seen a big corner at one time where young people were taken in and trained and paid 25 cents an hour, and when they were fit to do filing metal parts properly they were taken into the plant and their wages were increased. They cooperated thoroughly with the vocational school, and lent them equipment, and at one time the vocational school contracted to give them 1,500 partly trained young people by the first of June, 1941. The vocational school measured up splendidly and has been doing that ever since.
There is a union in that plant which has been doing things I never knew a trades union to do before. When anyone is ill and needs to go away they take charge, if necessary, and pay all his expenses. I have known them to pay sickness and funeral expenses in several instances. That shows that union 719 has a heart. It is also progressive. They produce a paper called The Effort, and one

of the fine literary contributors has been, or at any rate will be, the present Minister of Munitions and Supply.
The first Hurricane that was made in Canada was made in Fort William, and it compared favourably with any made in England. I was proud to be at the testing of that plane, because it was a thrilling moment.
Certain things have been said about Canada Car which bother me a little and I am not satisfied until I see my way through anything. I have great respect for the member for Davenport (Mr. MacNieol). I think he has fine judgment and he has made many worthy contributions to this house. I hope he will be long spared to do the same. But I should like to quote what the hon. member said as reported at page 2352 of Hansard:
That factory was building Hurricane bombers. I believe they were turning out about a hundred a month. They may have been turning those planes out for an English order; I do not know. However, for lack of orders they shut down on bombers, and remained shut down for six or seven months. This means that aeroplane facilities, for both defence and attack, for Great Britain and her allies, are short by six or seven hundred bombers they should have had-and could have had. Those bombers could have been made in Fort William. The plant has now started again producing.
I think I know the car works in Fort William, and if they stopped making bombers I am sure I would know about it. I do not think they have ever done so, but I am ready to stand corrected. I received a letter from the highest authority along this line after the announcement of the new order that came to Canada Car for 1,000 Curtis navy dive bombers. He writes:
The production of new aeroplanes will require extensive tooling which will be placed in hand immediately.
That was January 24.
Pending bringing the new planes into production. the Fort William plant will continue to produce the maximum number of Hurricane aircraft.
That means that they have not stopped. I have no doubt, however, that the minister can answer this much better than I can. I have heard members say in this house that there were idle workers. I know there are men in the Canada Car who must be idle, because you cannot keep them busy all the time. Take young fellows who run from one part of the plant to another carrying materials; you cannot keep them always busy but they must be there to carry on. They have to obey their orders promptly when issued. I have stood in an elevated position and looked down on those massive works, and I am sure that if anyone could

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see much idleness there I would have seen it.
I congratulate the management of that plant upon the splendid work they have done and the harmony that prevails in the plant at the present time.
The minister took time off to meet the executive of union 719. They had some difficulties because they had heeded certain rumors, but they showed wisdom in going to the minister, and he had no trouble in dispelling the rumors. The result was that they went away satisfied and said, "We have a great Minister of Munitions and Supply".
The other day I listened to the member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) as he said something about a submarine in the St. Lawrence. I am surprised at him when I think how the Department of Munitions and Supply is furnishing materials for every part of the world that is engaged with us in the war. If the hon. member for Temiscouata knows the manly art as I know it, he must know that when a man squares up to you, you will not let him get near enough to trip you up but will hit him before he gets close. That is what we ought to do, and the hon. member for Temiscouata and the group associated with him should change their minds and attack the enemy before he gets into the St. Lawrence. He should be stopped before he gets there. I suppose that if a submarine came up the Rideau canal his attitude would be different.
We must cooperate with the Department of Munitions and Supply with a view to keeping the enemy at a distance. I congratulate the minister upon the work he has done, and I hope he will take as coolly as possible any criticism which I may offer.


Thomas Miller Bell: I am not going to follow the hon. member who has just spoken except to say that the more aeroplanes we can turn out at this particular time, the better it will be for our war effort. I was disturbed some time ago by stories I had heard of the export of planes from Canada to countries that are neutral now but that may not be friendly neutral, or even neutral, if Hitler should march toward them. In order to clear up these rumours I asked some questions which were answered recently. The questions were:
1.	Have any planes, particularly Fleets 16, been supplied since June 1, 1941, to countries which were, or are, neutral?
2.	If so, to what countries and in what numbers ?
I was surprised at the answers that were given because I was inclined to believe that the stories I had heard were merely rumours. They questions were answered thus:
1. Since June 1, 1941, one export permit has been granted for the export of aircraft from Canada to countries other than the British empire and the United States. The permit in question was granted on August 23, 1941, and covered 18 Douglas bombers owned by the Roval Norwegian Air Force and sold by them to the government of Peru. The planes were at no time the property of the government of Canada, and were only exported after being found unsuitable for the purposes of the RC.A.F. and R.A.F., to whom they were first offered when the Royal Norwegian Air Force found them not suited to their requirements.
It strikes me as strange that Douglas bombers of any type could not have been used somewhere in connection with our own war effort. Having regard to the stories of the fighting at Singapore, Rangoon and elsewhere in the far east-we were told that on one occasion shortly before the fall of Singapore a fighter pilot went into the air in a machine described as an old crate and endeavoured to fight up-to-date Japanese machines-I felt that if we had in Canada planes of any type we should surely have used them in our own war effort rather than allow them to be sent to some other country.	_
Secondly I was told that immediately prior to June, 1941, a permit was granted for the export of ten model 16 Fleet trainers to Portugal for the use of the Portuguese navy. This export took place following consultation with the government of the United Kingdom, in view of the friendly relations existing with Portugal.
The question arises whether the policy followed in this matter by our government over a considerable period was a proper one. For years we were exporting raw material to countries with which we are now at war. Only recently we were permitting large quantities of copper, scrap iron and nickel to go to Japan. Now, of course, having sown the wind we are reaping the whirlwind. In my opinion, until the needs of the united nations are completely met, we have an excellent reason for refusing to supply neutral countries with war equipment that we may need ourselves. A few minutes ago the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) referred to the complaint of the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) the other day that we had not been able to sight and stop the submarine in the St. Lawrence river. Perhaps such criticism is not fully justified; there is something in it. Surely planes of the kind to which I have referred, or at least the engines of those planes, could be utilized for patrol work along our own coasts, even if they were
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not suitable for use in battle across the seas. I urge upon the government that they put a stop to this policy of exporting to neutral countries equipment and supplies which we ourselves may need.
We are not permitted to be given the figures as to exports of vital materials. We have been disturbed, for example, about shipments of antimony to neutral powers which at some time in the not far distant future might embarrass us because of their attitude in this war. We have no guarantee that some of these raw materials are not being transhipped from neutral countries or are not replacing similar material that is being shipped to nations with which we are at war. As one who was in Portugal for a few days last November I could not help observing that in the city of Lisbon there was a large number of Germans, with whom from time to time we rubbed shoulders, and that propaganda theatres were operating, open only to neutrals or nationals not unfriendly to the Germans. The hon. member for Rosedale (Mr. Jackman) and I one Saturday afternoon tried to get into a theatre to see a German propaganda film that was being shown to Portuguese officers and civilians, but because we were obviously English-speaking we were refused admittance. When we inquired of a Portuguese officer who spoke English as to the reason, he replied, after making inquiry at the wicket, "You are English." We replied that we were North Americans, and he said, Well, that is the same thing." We were not permitted to enter. I say therefore that when we have equipment of this kind we should be very careful where we send it.
_ The government was quite right in answering the third part of this question by saying that it would not be in the public interest to disclose the extent and nature of aircraft exports to the United States, and I shall not make any further inquiry as to that.
I turn now to something which concerns this country. In April I was in the United States. I had been invited to address certain meetings, principally a teachers' institute in Michigan. While I was there I was much disturbed to learn that the prestige of Canada was not as high as it should be. There was a tremendous amount of criticism of this country. Just before I went to the United States I had read in the newspapers of an attack upon Canada by two commentators in Washington who complained of our attitude in relation to the Alaska highway and in relation also to air routes, for what I thought to be United States military aeroplanes, into the northern part of Alberta. I made some inquiry of the Department of External Affairs before I left here, so that if the 
matter did come up while I was there I would be in possession of the facts. ' I was glad I had done that because I found that the statements to which I refer had been widely publicized and were based on an entire misrepresentation of the truth.
The minister will recall that on March 13 a story appeared in some of our local newspapers with regard to a transportation problem that had presented itself, and I asked the minister a question about it on the orders of the day. The question was, as recorded on page 1288 of Hansard of March 13:
I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Munitions and Supply. Has he an article in to-day's issue of the Toronto Globe and Mail blaming him for impeding the flow of war materials by United States trucks to eastern points across Canadian highways" If so, will he inform the house regarding the matters complained of in the article?
In his reply the minister gave the background of the story and the problem. I entirely supported the policy that was followed prior to the war, and will support that policy now if it is shown to be in the interests of Canada and the war effort of the united nations.
I hope the minister will not regard what I am going to say as personal criticism or even criticism of the policy. I say it merely because I want to get this situation cleared up. I believe and have always believed and have often said in this house that the railways of Canada are the lines of communication upon which this country has been built, that the railways are the bands of steel, as it were, which bind the provinces together and that we cannot afford to allow our railways to fall into disrepair or to be deprived of the sort of business that will enable them to handle the heavier and unprofitable freight that must be carried from one end of this country to the other. I have said, and I want to repeat, that I believe that the whole transportation system of this country should be under public control, and that when buses and trucks operate they should not be permitted to compete with and destroy the railway system upon which this country must depend for its major problems of transportation. They should be used to feed the main lines of traffic; they should be used to supplement rather than to compete with the railways of this country.
A violent attack was made in the House of Representatives of the United States a few days ago upon Canada and upon the Minister of Munitions and Supply in particular. I suppose their procedure is different from our own, because I imagine that if a member here were to begin to make an attack upon a public representative in the United States he would

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be stopped. It would be considered to be a breach of the courtesies due to a friendly people. I am not going to read all this statement; I do not know whether the minister has seen it, but I shall give him the copy from which I read and ask him to explain the situation. If the explanation is satisfactory, then I think publicity should be given to the minister's reply. This statement was made by Representative John D. Dingell in the House of Representatives a few days ago.


Mr. MITCHELL:: They do not necessarily have to make speeches; they can file them.


Thomas Miller Bell: That is probably what happened in this ease. However, his remarks received quite wide publicity in the Detroit News and other newspapers. As I said before, I think there is much misunderstanding on the other side of the line of the situation in this country, and, if I may say so, something should be done about it. Every member of parliament and every public man in this country who receives an invitation to address a public body in the United States should fed it his duty to accept the invitation. I think that should be done by all of us who receive these invitations from time to time. The statement reads in part:
It must be evident and startling to the patriotic American people and their Canadian friends to the north, to learn that this one-man opposition-
Tha-t is the minister.
-is responsible for the loss of time in transporting essential war materials urgently needed at the front and that the time lost via' the longer roundabout way along the southern shore of Lake Erie between the points mentioned of Port Huron, Detroit, and Buffalo amounts to anywhere from six to ten hours per trip, and it is conservatively estimated that there is a waste of 35,000 transportation days per annum, plus millions of tire miles and an additional uncalculated loss in the consumption of gasoline. The savings in mileage, mind you, between Detroit and Buffalo over the Canadian route, as compared with the longer all American route, is the difference between 261 miles [DOT] and 365 miles or a saving over the Canadian route of 104 miles per one way trip. The difference between Port Huron and Buffalo, using an all American route, as compared with the short and direct Canadian route is the difference between 210 miles and 420 miles or a saving of exactly fifty, per cent or 210 miles per one way trip.
That is the story told to the American people. I continue:
Why should the American people sacrifice the use of their automobiles, tires and gasoline? Why should they forego the comfort of oil heat in their homes this coming winter only to have these essentials squandered needlessly because of an unpatriotic, autocratic, and brazen attitude on the part of a railroad spokesman clothed in the official robes of Minister of
Munitions and Supply? This selfish railroad opposition, centered in Mr. Howe as regards this question, is the very same opposition which stood in the way of the completion of the Alaskan highway so essential to the defence of the entire west coast of continental North America and which was only recently broken by the rising tide of adverse public sentiment. The delay incurred has caused incalculable loss and exposed our peoples to great danger.
At another point he said:
American tankers, and more important, American lives are being sacrificed every day to supply the deficiency caused by the useless consumption of millions of gallons of gas which could be saved by the use of the approved Canadian route.
Toward the end of his remarks he went on to say:
I think it is timely to suggest that this problem might become one for the congress to investigate. I am thinking, Mr. Speaker, that it may be well to consider the appointment of a select committee of the house with the power to summon such witnesses as Lieutenant-General William S. Knudsen, J. B. Eastman, Director of Defense Transportation, Milo Perkins, Chairman of the American Section of the Joint War Production Committee of the United States and Canada, and others, in order to obtain first hand information with regard to the stricture which exists. In concluding my remarks, Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear that every responsible official-
I draw attention to this.
-of the governments of the United States and Canada who has examined the problem has agreed that this short Canadian route is essential and must be utilized.
The point I wish to make now is that on March 13, in reply to a question asked by me, the minister pointed out quite briefly the background of the situation. Ever since 1937 when our railways were in the doldrums and when we had cars of all kinds to spare he said that this organization of trucking interests has been endeavouring to get the right to transport across Canada goods which originate in the United States and are destined to points in the United States. The minister said, as reported on page 1288 of Hansard:
I may say, however, that the representations have always come from parties interested either in building the trucks or in selling the gasoline or operating a toll bridge or toll tunnel. I have never seen representations from potential users of the service.


Grote Stirling: Was any official reply to that statement made in the House of Representatives?


Thomas Miller Bell: Not that I know of. This was sent to me and I know of no official reply to it. Accompanying it was information to the effect that this important subject is and has been for some considerable time under consideration by the joint war production
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board of the two countries, and that on January 26 our own Canadian section of the board approved the suggestion.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not true.


Thomas Miller Bell: Not true?
Mr. HOWE. No.


Thomas Miller Bell: And on March 16 the joint board approved the suggestion on the ground that the United States railways and highways cannot handle the war material originating in Michigan and destined for Buffalo and points beyond.
I express this opinion: If it is true that the United States railways cannot handle the traffic; if our Canadian railroads cannot handle the through traffic and there is a material saving in mileage and in every other way in transporting munitions by the Canadian route, we should give not only every consideration to but every facility for the movement of war goods by a Canadian route. I do not know what the railway situation is in this country. I have with me a statement showing that there is a shortage of railway cars, trucks and so on in the United States, for the movement of such goods. I understand that recently the United States railways asked congress for
218,000	additional cars for this year to enable them to move the material which must be nloved at this time. My information is that they were allowed 18,000, as a matter of fact, and that this year they have notified Mr. Eastman that they require 380,000.
I do not know what our railway situation is. I do not know whether the Canadian lines from Detroit east to Buffalo are able to cope with an additional amount of traffic of this description. But I do think that if the situation is as has been outlined in this representative's speech, that is to say that the American roads are congested, the railways overburdened, and the haul 50 per cent greater through the United States, some plan should be worked out to give them the right to move these goods through Canada via a Canadian route. But may I add that under no circumstances should any group be allowed to use the war as a lever to get into this country and to utilize the Canadian route for their own purposes when the war is over. If they have a case in this time of war, and if the statement as I have read it to the committee can be substantiated, I am sure we should do something to meet the traffic congestion and to assist them by the use of the Canadian route.
This I want to say again, that we should do nothing at this time which would in any degree alienate the sympathy or opinion of any of the people of the United States. I feel that there has been misunderstanding-and graver mis-

understanding than I was aware of until very recently. This kind of thing, allowed to go unanswered if it is wrong, and unmet if it is right, is doing a grievous injury to Canada, to the relations between our two countries and to our war effort generally. I hope the minister will be able to clear up the points which have been raised in the United States House of Representatives.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I find myself a little confused by the statement of my hon. friend. I thought he was strongly pressing for the opening of the route for United States trucks, up to the last two or three minutes of his speech, at which time he seemed to reverse his position.


Thomas Miller Bell: No, no; I was not doing that at all. I thought I had made my position clear.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does the hon. member suggest they should go through?


Thomas Miller Bell: I am drawing attention to it only in the public interest. I am not in a position to judge as to the merits of the case, and I am not taking any sides.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I see.


Thomas Miller Bell: I wish the minister to understand that clearly. I believe the matter should be cleared up in the public interest.


Clarence Decatur Howe: All right. I have given a
brief outline of the position to which my hon. friend has referred. Of course the bringing of my name into the discussion, so far as the press from outside is concerned, is purely gratuitous. As Minister of Transport from 1935 to 1939 I presented to the government the views of the railroads. I was myself virtually a railroad man at that time. In 1939 I was transferred to the Department of Munitions and Supply, and the subject does not affect in any way that department. It is a matter really for the Department of National Revenue. An order in council or a change in customs regulations is necessary, and I assume the only possible opposition to it would be from the railways. But certainly, incidental to my position as Minister of Munitions and Supply, I have no views at all. Whether a change in the customs regulations was made or not would not affect by one iota the operations of the Department of Munitions and Supply. The view, of course, has been that of the government, and to single out one particular member of the government and call him a one-man bottleneck is more or less gratuitous.
The fact of the matter is that a group of Canadians are promoting this monopoly in transportation across this particular stretch

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of territory. They were very active in Canada for two or three years, and then they discovered that much more effective propaganda in Canada could be carried out from the United States, with the result that for the past two years the headquarters of the organization has been in Washington.
The inventor or sponsor of this project was a man named Corelli, a Canadian born in Winnipeg, and associated with the automotive business, first in Montreal and I believe later in Toronto. He conceived the idea that a material saving in transportation costs could be worked out by diverting highway traffic between Buffalo and Detroit over the Canadian highways, and that the shorter distance would permit a profit being made by whoever had a franchise to operate the shorter distance. He organized a company called International Highway Forwarders Limited. I believe his principal associates were the British American Oil Company, General Motors, and one or two others. I mention the fact that they were interested in selling gasoline or motor trucks. I believe everyone concerned had some rather direct interest in the affairs of the company, in that way.
Representations were first made in 1936. In the session of 1937 a bill changing the customs regulations was introduced in the senate. It did not however emerge from the senate. I believe it was 1936-37, although it may have been 1937-38, that I appeared before committees of, each house and, as it was my duty to do as Minister of Transport, expressed the views of the railways. When the company moved to Washington some United States interests were added.
I think one man is either the president or the director of the Peace bridge, and there are other interests of a similar nature. Arrangements have been worked out, I think, under which International Forwarders Limited have a contract with a very large number of trucking concerns in the United States. The first plan was that the Canadian company would have its own trucks and drivers and convey the vehicles across Canada, but I think the present arrangement is that International Forwarders Limited will furnish the drivers for the American trucks and drive those trucks across Canada for a fee.
There are other features besides competition with the railways. There are five lines of railway between Buffalo and Detroit, operated for the most part with Canadian crews. In a time of depression it is something to think about, to set up a competing line of trucks with no investment in the route and a free franchise to divert as much traffic as possible to the highways. It is also something to think
about to set aside a certain section of our country to be a bridge between two large industrial centres. The passage of trucks across this strip of territory would bring no prosperity to that territory. The people there would simply be residents on a bridge between two large cities. The highways there were not built for traffic of the kind, and various opinions are expressed as to whether they are suitable for continuous heavy truck traffic. I believe a report has been produced on the other side of the line which indicates that the highways are suitable. The chairman of the transport commission is making an investigation now on behalf of the Canadian government of all aspects of the situation and I assume his report will express an opinion on this subject.
It is a situation that has some very attractive features. On the other hand I do not like- this is only a personal view, and I have never expressed it as a reason why I do not want to see this traffic-a little group of citizens setting up a monopoly on our highways. I do not think that is a desirable way to use the public domain. I also dislike very much condemning people who live along the highway system which would be used under this proposal to be faced with a steady stream of heavy trucks over the highway which their children must cross, and which they also must use for access to other places. These are the objectionable features. Whether they are sufficient in a time like this to be maintained, I cannot say. The government has asked the chairman of the board of transport commissioners to conduct an inquiry into all phases of the situation and report to the government what action ought to be taken. That report will be presented shortly, and the government will take such action as it may consider wise.


Mr. BROOKS:: Have any official representations been made by the United States government that this traffic be allowed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No official representations. Unofficial representations have been made from rather high quarters, but nothing in an official way.
Bringing in the Alaska highway was, of course, purely gratuitous. The facts about that highway are these. We received an inquiry from the United States as to whether arrangements could be made to survey a route across Canada. We answered promptly, almost the same day the inquiry was received, and gave a favourable reply. We were ready with our tractor trains to take in gasoline to permit the survey to be made as soon as a decision was arrived at. As soon as the United States decided to make a survey we cooperated in

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every way possible. There was never a doubt in anyone's mind that if the United States wanted a road across Canada, Canada would do all it could to make that road feasible, and that is being done. Canada has acquired the right of way for the road and is assisting the United States in every way to carry out its plans.
So far as the use of the airways to Alaska is concerned, it has been understood from the time Canada entered the war that the Alaska air route, which was built by Canada-the airports are the property of Canada and have been developed as part of a very important air route-should be free for the use of United States military planes. There is an international convention which provides that if a civilian plane wishes to use that route permission must first be obtained from the state department of the other country. A plane from the United States entered Canada without any permission being asked. It had radio equipment, and it was announced at Winnipeg that it was to do transport work for the United States government between Edmonton and Alaska. We thought we would like to know a little more about this, so we grounded the plane at Edmonton and made inquiry of the United States government and asked what this was all about. I happened to be going to Washington at the time and I made personal inquiries there. I found that everybody there had assumed that someone had asked Canada for permission for this plane to fly, and it was explained that the army wished to engage this air line to do certain transport work. The necessary permission was given that very day. I telephoned back to Ottawa and was able to convey full permission to the army to use this civilian transport company. The whole delay amounted to only about four days, and was caused by the fact that no one in the United States had advised Canada what She wished to do in that connection. My hon. friend knows how these stories get abroad. Canada was in the war when the United States was at peace, and the isolationist element in the United States thought it good business to advance their cause by very unfair criticism of Canada and its war effort. But I think that everyone in an official position in the United States fully appreciates what Canada is doing in the war. I may say that we have been able to be very helpful to the army and navy and air force of the United States from the fact that we had been in the war longer than they had, and had our production of munitions and war equipment further advanced than theirs. I think that that help has been appreciated as the finest sort of cooperation in war production between Canada and the United

States. We confer with the United States authorities frequently and have a number of joint committees which are working on common problems. But there is a weakness in our publicity arising from the activities of the isolationist press before the United States entered the war.
I agree with my hon. friend that no opportunity should be lost by Canadians visiting in the United States to correct any wrong impression that might prevail over there, either by speaking in public or otherwise. I myself spoke before the Boston chamber of commerce three or four weeks ago in an address which was broadcast over the New England network, and I received an astonishing number of letters from people who were surprised by what I was able to tell them about Canada's war effort. Hon. members will do a real service to Canada if they accept every opportunity to do likewise.
I hope I have covered the ground my hon. friend wished me to cover. The matter to which he refers is being examined in the light of the war situation. Of course he will understand that any army truck or any war truck can pass freely. It is purely a matter of shipping merchandise in bond over that route.


Thomas Miller Bell: It would be war material, would it not? That is what I had reference to.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I suppose it would be any material; it is any material that would be required to pay duty in Canada. Of course there are certain classes of war material that could pass in any event, because the goods would not be dutiable, into Canada. Any goods can move that way if those concerned are willing to pay duty at one end and get a refund at the other end. It is simply that they wish to pass the goods through in bond. But I understand the permission that is being asked for is for any goods to move from one point to the other, whether war materials or not; and I do not know whether we can distinguish between what are war materials and what are not, because most materials may be used either for one purpose or the other.


Thomas Miller Bell: Merchandise consigned to wholesale or retail companies doing business in other than war materials would not be war materials. Goods consigned to factories or organizations doing war work might be considered as such. All I can say is that I hope consideration is being given to this matter, and that if it has merit, the request will be granted; if it has not, I hope it will be refused.

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Mr. ILSLEY:: I do not think I can add anything to this, but I am going to give something of my own experience in this matter.
As the committee knows, I was Minister of National Revenue between 1935 and 1940, and it was upon the Minister of National Revenue that the lobby converged for the concession desired. There is a section of the Customs Act which provides that goods can move in bond in Canada only on railways. That is an old section, and it has been argued that it is obsolete and should be amended. On the other hand, the customs officials of the Department of National Revenue have always felt that there were solid reasons for the maintenance of that section in its present form. The reasons are these: that if goods move in bond on a railway the cars are sealed; the minimum crew of a train is five, I think; the train is always on the tracks and you always know where your goods are; whereas, if goods were permitted to travel around in Canada, and through Canada, by truck coming in at one point and going out at another, the danger of goods on which duty had not been paid going into circulation in the country would be very greatly increased. That was the argument which was always advanced by the officials of the customs division, when I was Minister of National Revenue, against any change. Added to that was the undoubted wish of the railways, and I may say that the representations were not all on one side. In the year when this lobby was at its height we received numbers of resolutions from railway workers locals along the line of the railways; and I know the Canadian National Railways were very much disturbed at the prospect of an alteration of the rule that foreign goods on which the duty has not been paid, which have not entered in customs, should not move other than on the railways-and this for obvious reasons.
In two years the representatives of the interests who wanted to get this concession came to Ottawa and did everything they possibly could to have that section of the Customs Act amended. I remember that on one occasion they brought along a large red truck, parked it outside the parliament buildings here, and invited myself as Minister of National Revenue, and perhaps other ministers, to inspect the truck and satisfy themselves that it was safe to move goods across the country in that type of conveyance. There was one year when a bill was introduced in the senate; it went before one of the senate committees, and conflicting representations were made. But the view of the
government always was that the relevant section of the Customs Act should not be amended.
As my colleague has said, there is no reason in the world why he should be singled out for attack in this manner. The natural target is the Minister of National Revenue, although I am not suggesting that he should be attacked. I believe I took full responsibility during the years when the matter was before the government for deciding not to recommend an amendment of the act. Whether there has been a change in conditions recently which would justify a change in the law I do not know, but the committee should not be under the slightest illusion as to the reasons behind the agitation. The only reason I have for speaking now is to add my testimony to what my colleague has said. The reasons behind this agitation are those of men who want to make money out of getting the use of these highways for the running of their trucks.


Thomas Miller Bell: May I interject this?
I am not asking that anything should be done that would give these people entry into Canada. If we can assist in the movement of war goods across Canada, well and good. Anything which is done will be done, I hope, only as a war measure and for the duration of the war, and then only if we cannot handle it in any other way.


James Lorimer Ilsley: There are two other matters to which I want to refer briefly. The hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe) this afternoon, on the orders of the day, corrected a statement which he made last night in reference to the number of subscriptions for victory loans. His speech of last evening, while not precisely accurate in regard to the figures* was substantially so; but the correction he made this afternoon is substantially incorrect. I have had a word with him, and I think he is satisfied that that is so; it was an inadvertence on his part. I should like to put on record the true figures. I am assuming that the population of Canada is 11,420,084: that is the preliminary census total as released by the dominion bureau of statistics. On that basis the ratio of subscribers to population for the first victory loan was 8-48 per cent, and for the second victory loan, 14-72 per cent. The number of subscriptions in the first victory loan was 968,259, and in the second victory loan, 1,681,525.
The other matter I wanted to mention is one which was being discussed early this afternoon, and that is an alleged agreement between an official of the Department of Munitions and Supply, the director-general of aircraft production, and treasury officials or the
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treasury, to the effect that certain expenditures by companies would be allowed as part of their costs of production or part of the overhead. I made very careful inquiry, and I am assured by the comptroller of the treasury that no agreement of that kind was made. He has made inquiry also of his officials; and therefore all that I can say is that there must be some mistake about there having been any arrangement with the treasury that these particular expenses would be allowed as part of the overhead. It may be that they would have been on general principles, and it may be that some discussion of general principles took place or some assurance in regard to the general rule was given; but that is a matter as to which an opinion could not be formed until the actual expenditures, whatever they were, came in. They would be subject to review, subject to audit by the officers of the treasury, but I do not want it to go out to the public that this particular class of expenditure was the subject of any agreement between the treasury and anybody.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: First of all I wish to congratulate the hon, member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) upon his constructive address this afternoon dealing with the oil resources of Canada and the possibility of developing oil sands. He has gone to a great deal of trouble and taken a good deal of time, and altogether he shows commendable interest in personally examining these oil resources. I am glad that the minister has taken steps to see if these can be developed as a war necessity, as a great Canadian resource for the future. I am also pleased that the minister and his officials and engineers are investigating the oil shales of New Brunswick. I hope they will also be developed. I pointed out yesterday that there were also extensive oil shales in Nova Scotia, which to some extent have been explored. They are to be found in different parts of that province, in the county of Pictou, in Antigonish and other places. I believe there are great possibilities.
While discussing the matter of oil and gasoline, I think the minister should make a statement-I do not believe it has been made officially yet by the oil controller-as to the position of tourists entering Canada, more particularly in the maritime provinces. Some publicity has been given to the statement that they will be allowed only twenty gallons of gasoline on coming to Canada. If that is correct, it will mean that they can cover only three or four hundred miles, and that would completely destroy the motor tourist traffic in Nova Scotia, Prince Edward

Island and other parts of Canada in the coming year. If that is necessary owing to the exigencies of the war we shall have to abide by it, and the traffic will have to be diverted by rail; but it would be well for the minister to make a definite statement. There are many people depending on the tourist traffic, and they have to make provision for the coming season.
I wish to refer now to the discussion with respect to Mr. Ralph Bell, director-general of aircraft construction. May I pay him my respects and express my appreciation of the wonderful energy he has shown and the great accomplishments he has achieved in connection with the aircraft industry of Canada. Canada, the empire and democracy the world over are under great obligations to certain men. Among these are Lord Beaver-brook and, in a not much lesser degree, such men as Mr. Ralph Bell. There may have been some indiscretions; his methods may have been a little more direct than others, but his purpose cannot be questioned. When one realizes the responsibilities that have rested upon him since he has been in this position, one must be amazed at what he has accomplished.
The minister said that the aeroplane industry had increased four hundredfold.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should have said forty, and I had the correction made.


Percy Chapman Black: I would almost accept four hundredfold as correct, because in some particulars it is correct. Even if it is only fortyfold, it is an immense expansion, and that falls largely under the responsibility of Mr. Bell. One cannot realize the difficulties under which he and those associated with him have laboured in this connection, building these plants from the very beginning, having them established, with one or two exceptions, as new plants, getting the personnel together, accumulating the materials, and so on, This has been a great undertaking. After the designs have been fixed upon, jigs constructed, materials obtained, delays and disappointments overcome, the planes are constructed so that they will be worthy of the Minister of National Defence for Air Services and our splendid airmen, who are in the forefront of the fighting wherever our battles are to be won.
The immensity of the work carried on by the aircraft industry can be realized only when one considers the total figures. I go to the Financial Post for these figures. I am sorry that many of them are not available to hon.

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members. We are under obligations to the Financial Post for much information that is adduced in the house. In the edition of April 25, just a few weeks ago, it was reported that the aircraft industry had already totalled $391,719,381, and that the new orders that have been placed since the beginning of the year, the first three months of 1942, total the enormous sum of $86,500,000. Mr. Bell's purpose was to build up the morale of the aircraft industry, and we are all in agreement with him in that purpose.
In the town of Amherst we have accomplished a great deal. We were the last, I believe, to undertake the construction of the Avro-Anson, and we were the first to have machines, built in that plant, flying. I have been waited on from time to time by representatives of the workmen there, and one of the last statements they made to me was that without additional help they would be prepared to increase the output of that plant very materially if they could get the materials in sufficient quantities and if a few changes were made. They are as anxious as the minister and the director-general of aircraft production to get production, and while a pep-up of morale may help the industry in Amherst, I do not believe it is necessary. I believe they are anxious to do all they possibly can.
We are all agreed that one of the greatest responsibilities rests on those who have to supply materials and direct the aircraft industry, and we are deeply obligated to Mr. Bell and his associates for what they have done, for the present programme, and for what we expect they will do before the termination of the war.
The minister in making his statement gave figures of capital assistance to war industries. He stated that it had reached 380 million dollars. About a year ago I understood him to say that capital assistance to war industries amounted then to 268 million dollars. In November in his statement to the house it was 550 million dollars. So I do not reconcile the figure of 380 million dollars. I do not think he gave the portion of the two billion dollar appropriation that is earmarked for the Department of Munitions and Supply. It was stated that 997 million dollars was earmarked for the army, 259 million dollars for the navy and 585 million dollars for the air force, plus 40 million dollars contributed by the other members of the commonwealth air training plan, a possible additional 300 million dollars which the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power), said would probably be required, and 21 million dollars for sundries.
I see the minister's figure is in this report of March 17, 335 million dollars for the Department of Munitions and Supply.
These are enormous figures, but hon. members willingly vote these estimates if they are being used for the main purpose, that is winning the war. The minister also reported that he had expended, from the beginning of the war up to the present time, four billion dollars. These are enormous sums and the people of Canada have accomplished a great deal. I am not in entire agreement with the hon. member for Invemess-Richmond (Mr. McGarry)- although I usually agree with him-when he said that sufficient consideration has been given to the outlying parts of Canada and to Nova Scotia in the distribution of war industries. Much more could have been accomplished, and I believe that in fairness much larger expenditures should have been made in Nova Scotia and other outlying parts of Canada. At this time the minister and the government could very well adjust the inequalities in industrial enterprise in Canada by locating industries in the maritime provinces, that have suffered grievously in regard to industrial activity. Twenty-five years ago there were many small industries in Nova Scotia that were more or less prosperous. They have carried on under great disadvantages in recent years, due to the growth of mass production in central Canada and the tendency of the big industries to absorb our smaller industries and to dump their products in the outlying parts of Canada, making unfair competition for our local industries. There are many industries necessary in a time such as this to produce special war supplies, industries that would have some surviving or permanent value after the war, industries that must be sponsored or encouraged by the government; such industries should be located in places like Nova Scotia.
With regard to the matter of shipbuilding, while much has been done in the last six months or so I still feel that sufficient consideration has not been given to the old shipbuilding province of Nova Scotia. I agree with the statement of the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid), that ships and more ships are needed to-day. Last session I repeated the call made by Lord Beaverbrook to the four comers of the earth that ships and more ships are required, appealing to the people everywhere to supply ships. I said at the time that more consideration should be given to Nova Scotia in respect of shipbuilding, wooden shipbuilding, using Nova Scotian raw materials rather than teak, mahogany and imported woods, and using diesel-engine power. While we do not want to waste money
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or make unnecessary expenditure, I believe it is in the interest of the situation we have to face that more activity be shown in this connection.
Senator Duff protested against the refusal of the department to undertake a wooden shipbuilding programme in Nova Scotia. He said, as reported in the Halifax Chronicle of March 26, 1941:
With proper men in charge of the effort, there was no reason why fifty Nova Scotia shipyards "from river John around to the Parrsboro shore" should not be started on wartime shipbuilding within a month's time. . . .
The senator advocated the building in Nova Scotia of not only wooden corvettes, minesweepers and patrol boats, but also "small cargo boats propelled by sail and diesel engines capable of carrying between 1,500 and 2,500 tons of cargo." Despite the preference for steel ships, the urgency of the situation would undoubtedly make a place for wooden cargo ships in the war effort, he said.
Wooden ships have three great advantages in the present crisis, Senator Duff argued.
I quote Senator Duff because he has spent his life in connection with shipping and the sea.
I want to commend the minister, although he was perhaps a little later than some of us would have liked, for what has been done in resurrecting the steel plate mill in Sydney. That mill, I understand, is now producing plates for shipbuilding. I hope that further shipbuilding yards will be established in Nova Scotia. I understand there is one in construction now,, perhaps two, and if more interest had been shown earlier in the war I believe steel shipbuilding in Nova Scotia could have been increased manyfold.
We have no record of what has been done in the different parts of Canada as regards shipbuilding, and I was disappointed that the minister refused to give any reply to a question that I asked in the house on this subject. On March 25 I made these inquiries with respect to shipbuilding, as reported on page 1615 of Hansard:
1.	What is the number, the total tonnage and the estimated cost of all ships ordered built by the government of Canada or by any other government to be built in Canada of 100 tons capacity or more for commercial purposes, since September 10, 1939, in each of the following provinces, (1) Nova Scotia, (2) New Brunswick, (3) Prince Edward Island, (4) Quebec, (5) Ontario, (6) British Columbia?
2.	What is the number and the total tonnage of all ships launched in each province to March 14, 1942?
The minister's reply was:
This question asks for total production in a certain line of war effort. I have no objection personally to giving the information, but we have been asked specifically by the British government, and an agreement has been entered into on the part of the British government, the 
United States government and the government of Canada, not to give total production figures of war materials.
This is information to which hon. members are entitled. I do not see, in view of the announcements made concerning the shipbuilding programme, why hon. members are not entitled to at least some information in respect of this very important matter.
In the Financial Post that I quoted a few minutes ago it was stated that the shipbuilding being undertaken in the first three months of this year represents an expenditure of $86,500,000. I have here a semi-government publication, at least one that is sponsored by the government, that is issued under their patronage. The April issue of the Canadian Geographic Journal states that 154 cargo boats, 153 life-saving craft, 1,059 life boats, 614 light craft, 300 steel naval craft and 925 patrol boats have been built. These figures include 154 cargo boats of 10,000 tons deadweight, and 18 cargo boats of 5,000 tons. The total cost was $275,000,000.
They indicate where these ships are being built. It would seem that information is given out indirectly through these government or semi-government publications and through newspapers and periodicals which we are denied in the house. I feel we should have this information, at least to a greater extent than we have up to the present. There are many places in Nova Scotia and the maritime provinces where shipbuilding activities could be undertaken and I believe splendid results would be obtained.
I am most sympathetic with the minister in solving the problems that arise in connection with the Department of Munitions and Supply. The people of this country and the members of this house have given him unbounded support. I think the members of the house have been of assistance to him by pressing for further activities with respect to shipbuilding, with respect to tanks, with respect to aeroplane engines, with respect to aeroplanes and many other war manufactures. It is the task of the members of this house and the members of the official opposition to be helpful to the Minister of Munitions and Supply and to all the defence ministers in carrying out their responsibilities in this war. If there has been any criticism it is that they have not proceeded fast enough, that they have not done enough, that they have not been as frank with us as they should have been in giving us information as to the requirements of the army and the other services. The members of the opposition are anxious to contribute to the uttermost in assisting the government in the

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responsibilities that are theirs in carrying on the war. I am appreciative of what the Minister of Munitions and Supply has done. I sympathize with him in the responsibilities that have arisen and I often wonder how one small head can hold all that the minister knows.


William Earl Rowe: Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege, the Minister of Finance has made a statement, and before he made it I discussed with him the remarks I had made. In looking over my notes and in looking over the press report I am now in the position of asking that a correction be made of a correction. I now find that the figures I gave last night were as reported in the press, and I therefore ask that they remain as given. However, I thank the minister for the official information he has given.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think I should reply to the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) particularly in regard to the gasoline situation in the maritime provinces. I have no personal knowledge of the Nova Scotia shales, but I shall be glad to refer his remarks in that connection to the oil controller with the request that he send me such information as is available. With regard to tourists, the present situation is that the tourist will be given a book containing four coupons when he crosses the border. My hon. friend says that he is to be given twenty gallons of gasoline, but that does not follow automatically; he will be given four standard coupons.


Percy Chapman Black: To-day that would be twenty gallons?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, but to-morrow not so good. I am sorry to say that the situation in the maritime provinces has deteriorated to such an extent that the oil controller finds it necessary at midnight to-night to cut the value of coupons in the maritime provinces to two gallons. We hope that this will be temporary and that the value of the coupons can be increased. But there just is not enough gasoline to go around.


Percy Chapman Black: Does that
apply only to the maritimes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, that is all. In order
to work out the situation without hardship, in order to distribute fairly what gas is available to the motorist, it is necessary for the time being to honour coupons only to the extent of two gallons. The authorities in the United States quite reasonably take the view that if they are curtailing their travelling for pleasure in the United States, it is not desirable for United States citizens travelling in
Canada for pleasure to have any better treatment than they would receive at home. Similarly, I think our own citizens would resent the use of gasoline for pleasure purposes by tourists when gasoline for pleasure driving in Canada is being severely restricted. What can be done for the tourist beyond the four coupons that he is given at the border will depend on circumstances. If he has come to Canada simply for pleasure driving I doubt if anything further can be done for him, but if he is travelling to a summer home in Canada, it is probable that provision may be made to take him to his home and bring him back by his giving the proper information to the nearest representative of the oil controller. I do not wish to be too definite about that, but I believe that is the present situation.
I am glad my hon. friend has mentioned the director general of aircraft production, and I think that every word he said about Mr. Bell is well justified. It is unfortunate that a man with the temperament of Mr. Bell finds it difficult to abide by the conventions of government business. He occasionally makes an indiscreet slip of the type which has been discussed by the committee, but those slips are made wholly from his desire to get on with the job. He is a little impatient with our red tape, and I think hon. members should view the situation in its true light, which is just that.
With regard to shipbuilding in the maritimes I may say that we are anxious to build more steel ships there than we are building. We find it impossible to get sufficient staff to man the two largest shipyards, the Halifax shipyard and the Saint John shipyard, in order to enable ship construction to proceed while ship repair work is being done. We have made every effort to bring these staffs up to the point where both shipbuilding and ship repair work can proceed. Experience has taught us that up to this time this has not been possible. Naturally when repair work is required it must take precedence. The quickest way to get merchant tonnage is to repair the ships you have, rather than to divert men to the building of new ships. I cannot believe there is any supply of shipbuilders in the maritimes that has not been tapped. If there are such men able to work on ships, men who might be called ship mechanics, I urge them to report to Halifax, Saint John or Pictou, where they will be welcomed. They are badly needed in the existing yards and will be put to work immediately. I can see no purpose whatsoever in opening additional shipyards, when we cannot man the yards we have.
War Appropriation-Supplies


Mr. BLACKMORE:: If the men so report, will provision be made to cover their expenses from wherever they happen to be to the point of operations?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think any shipyard in the maritimes would be glad to pay their fares there. The Saint John Dry Dock Company advertised in every western paper that they would do that for anyone in the west. I believe inquiries should be made, however, as to whether they are still willing to do it, and I would suggest that if my hon. friend knows of anyone who wishes to travel there he should ask that person to communicate with the Saint John Dry Dock company.


John Horne Blackmore: It would relieve the men of all that anxiety if they would also pay their fares back, in the event of their being rejected.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know that that is exactly fair. The men offering themselves should be fairly sure they are able to do the work, before they put the company to the expense of transportation to the maritime provinces.


John Horne Blackmore: Otherwise the men would have to bear the brunt.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We do not like people to come down as tourists. If they can do the work, then they should work. We do not want to encourage the tourist industry in that way, simply by saying that if they do not like the looks of things they may go back, and have their fares paid.


Percy Chapman Black: There is one thing I do not understand in connection with the shipbuilding programme. We are very grateful to British Columbia for what has been done there, but I do not understand why there should be seventeen of these yards established in British Columbia, when in Nova Scotia this work is so belated. It places eastern Canada at a great disadvantage, and I do not understand it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Offhand I would say there are more yards in Nova Scotia than in British Columbia. I believe there are more than seventeen yards building some kind of ships in Nova Scotia at the present time, and I understand those yards have been busy continuously since the shipbuilding programme was begun. Many ships have been built in the maritime provinces-although I have not the figures before me. I dislike breaking down 
the figures by provinces, because, after all, this is Canada's war effort, and it does not matter much to Canada's war effort whether they are built in one place or another.


Percy Chapman Black: We are grateful to British Columbia for what they have done, but I think more might have been done in Nova Scotia.


Clarence Decatur Howe: But I say if there is any man in Nova Scotia able to work on a ship, he could do the war effort a great deal of good by reporting to one of the three big shipyards, where we have been continuously short of men.


Mr. GILLIS:: Would they have to be skilled men?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If they are able-bodied they can be trained; that is my opinion.


Mr. McGARRY:: I understand that in these days ministers: responsible for the prosecution of the war are looking around for facilities, and for raw and manufactured materials to contribute to the war effort. Is the minister aware of the fact that at Glencoe, in my constituency, there is a large deposit of magnetic ore proved, by analysis, to be of very high quality? A man has been paying the rentals on the leases for several years. Last year the Dominion Coal company became interested in the area, did some work and, in fact, produced some ore. I was talking to the engineer of that company, and he told me that a large amount of the ore could be recovered by surface mining.
A few days ago I received a letter from the man holding the leases stating that the Dominion Coal company have given up their interest in the property, and that he is now prepared to produce a thousand tons weekly. I have no doubt he has made the same submission to the hon. member for Cape Breton South who, I am sure, will have something to say on the matter. The man in question is seeking some assistance from the Department of Munitions and Supply and, as he points out, that assistance would not need to be very great. If assistance is not given it would appear that this man, who has been carrying the leases for a number of years, will likely have to surrender the property to the Dominion Coal company.
I would ask the minister to take the matter under consideration, and see if something could be done, or some assistance could not be given this man who has continued to hold on to this valuable property.

Questions
He is not asking for very much to-day, but wishes only the initial facilities necessary to bring about a production which, I have no doubt, can be greatly increased in the future. Has this matter been brought to the minister's attention?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have no personal knowledge of the iron deposits mentioned by the hon. member, but I shall be glad to obtain a report from my steel controller, and consider what can be done to bring that iron ore into the war effort.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at six p.m.
Monday, May 18, 1942