1942-07-30

Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct the attention of the Prime Minister and of the house to the concluding sentence of the statement made by Your Houour on the twenty-fifth of July, as reported in Hansard at page 4701. That sentence reads:

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I shall therefore await the order of the house Before issuing a new writ for a new election for the electoral district of Stanstead.
The Prime Minister will recall the incident. I do not think we should disperse for the recess without consideration of this matter, and I therefore desire to ask the Prime Minister if the question has received the attention of the government and if he is prepared to present any motion to the house with regard thereto.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I may say to my hon. friend that the government has given consideration to the matter, and I am prepared to make a motion immediately if I get the consent of the house. The matter is one which certainly should be referred to the committee on privileges and elections. I move:
That pursuant to the judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada, which on the twenty-ninth of June, 1942, annulled for illegal practices by agents the election of Robert Greig Davidson for the electoral district of Stanstead, and in view of section 71 of the Dominion Controverted Elections Act, the standing committee on privileges and elections be instructed to consider whether the house should order a new writ for an election in the said electoral district.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. VINCENT DUPUIS (Chambly-Rou-ville) moved:: That the third and final report of the joint committee of both houses on the printing of parliament be now concurred in.
He said: I notice that in Votes and Proceedings of the 24th instant, the date on which I presented the report, the titles of the documents do not appear. It is very important that these titles and references as contained in the list I have now before me be printed in Votes and Proceedings, so that in the volume which the library has, any hon. member who goes there can find the reference. I Should like to move also that these titles and references be printed in Votes and Proceedings.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Mr. Dupuis moves that the third and final report of the joint committee of both houses on the printing of parliament be now concurred in. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Georges Parent: I understand that the
hon. member has another motion to make in connection with that report.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: With additional recommendations.


Vincent Dupuis: I thought that it did not need any written motion. I merely call the attention of the house to the fact that Votes and Proceedings of the date mentioned does not contain the list of documents.


Georges Parent: The hon. member may
give notice of motion. There is a long statement, I understand, that he wishes to have printed.



CARRIER PIGEONS


[Stage Direction]
'On the orders of the day:
Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I would lay on the
table a supplementary return, which was suggested by the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) yesterday, in regard to carrier pigeons.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. MATTHEWS:: Is it the intention of the government to proceed with the erection of dwelling houses in centres congested as a result of military training projects?


Mr. ILSLEY:: My colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply is making a statement to-day on housing. I made one yesterday, and I suggest that these two statements be regarded as the answer to this question.


HOUSING CONDITIONS AT GASPE, QUE.
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Is the government aware that a serious lack of living quarters exists at Gaspe, Gaspe county ?
2.	If so, will the government take measures to see that a sufficient number of dwellings at a low rental are placed at the disposal of families of moderate means, residing in the village?
3.	Will the government make inquiry into the lack of houses there?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Substantially the same observations apply to this question as I made in
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regard to the one immediately preceding. The suggestion seems to be that the houses should be rented rather than owned; if so, it is a matter that should be taken up with my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


PERSONNEL LISTED IN DEFENCE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY
Mr. POULIOT:: Referring to the statement of the hon. Minister of National Defence, at page 3376 of Hansard of June 5, 1942, in relation to the persons listed in the telephone directory of the Department of National Defence dated March 1, 1942, so far as the army is concerned:
1.	What are (a) the name, (b) the rank, (c) the age, (d) the military record, (e) the country of origin, and (f) the branch of each one of, first, the 142 persons said to be bilingual; second, the 134 or 137 persons, more or less, who have not resided in Canada during the past five years; third, the 131 persons "whose names appear in the directory and who have been moved away from headquarters since the directory was prepared"; fourth, all other persons appointed, seconded or transferred to the Department of National Defence (Army) since the directory was prepared and who are not listed in the said directory, but who have one or more telephones in their names in the dominion government exchange ?
2.	How many, if any, of the persons referred to in the second, third and fourth places in the previous question were (a) in the British army on September 1, 1939, and (b) stationed, for any time and at any time, at the British war office, and (c) who were they in each case?


Mr. RALSTON:: Stands.


Jean-François Pouliot: I rise at the same time to a point of order and to a double question of privilege. The point of order is as follows. Part of standing order 44, section 1, reads:
. . . but in putting any such question or in replying to the same no argument or opinion is to be offered, nor any facts stated, except so far as may be necessary to explain the same.
My point of order is that, at page 4518 of Hansard, July 22, the Minister of National Defence is reported as having said:
If the house will take the trouble to read the question it will find out how much detail is involved and how futile the work is after it is all done.
I submit, sir, that according to the standing orders of the House of Commons the Minister of National Defence has not the right to call such a question, or any other question, futile. This is the first point.
With regard to the first question of privilege, the minister stated that to answer the question would entail a large amount of work. Well, sir, if we look back to page 3105 of Hansard, |
[Mr. Ilsley.l	0j
June 5, it will be seen that on that occasion the minister gave the totals for which I asked, and to make the totals he necessarily had to have the particular cases at hand. Therefore, as he had them at hand, there is no excuse whatever for having waited from June 5 until now to give the house information which is not only available, but which had been already summed up in the Department of National Defence to answer the question on June 5.
My second question of privilege is this. After the minister had called that question futile there were some observations along the same line in an editorial which appeared in one of the newspapers in the city of Ottawa, the title of which seemed to have been written by a Chinese, because it starts from the end to get to the beginning of my name. That is the way Chinese books are written. I object especially to this part of the editorial:
If his long question of the other day asking for all the names and, positions and ages and duties of everyone in the National Defence headquarters served the country to the extent that it would take the time of officers of headquarters to answer it then his question must be accepted. If Mr. Pouliot's humorous sallies (he must believe they are humorous for they have no possible other value) delivered almost each day in the chamber delight the members to the extent that their work is improved and speeded up, then his sallies must be suffered.
I would not mind that kind of stuff if it had not been evidently inspired, probably by civilians in uniform in the Department of National Defence, the list of whom was tabled as sessional paper 350 of this session, at my request.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Speaker, I do not think my hon friend is dealing with a question of privilege. As I understand the rule, when a member rises to a question of privilege he states the facts and the house takes note of them. My hon. friend has no right to discuss the question of the inspiration of the article. The article speaks for itself, and my hon. friend, speaking to a question of privilege, has no right to go out of his way to abuse people who are not mentioned in the article.


Jean-François Pouliot: In the first place, Mr. Speaker, when a member speaks to a question of privilege no other member has the right to interrupt him. No one may interrupt him but the Chair-[DOT]


James Layton Ralston: On a point of order-


Jean-François Pouliot: -and I would ask the minister to keep quiet.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Speaker, on a point iof order-

Questions


Jean-François Pouliot: I have great respect for the Chair-


Georges Parent: There is a point of order.


James Layton Ralston: I am interrupting on a point of order. My point is that my hon. friend in rising to a question of privilege with reference to the article should indicate the statement to which he objects, and state the impropriety of it with relation to himself as a member of this house. But he has no right, as I have pointed out, in stating his question of privilege, to abuse people who are not in any way on the record and who are not here to answer for themselves, nor has he the right to impute motives to others not mentioned in the article.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will summarize the matter in a sentence. It is that so long as the Minister of National Defence defends those civilians in uniform I am satisfied, but I am most dissatisfied that he should call me friend. What are his enemies, then? I am not his enemy but I object-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Georges Parent: I understand the minister wishes to speak.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend-


Jean-François Pouliot: No!


James Layton Ralston: I withdraw the charge. The hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) has taken three points, first on a question of order. He says that what I said on July 21 should not have been stated in answer to the question, and he cites a rule that answers to questions shall be responsive to the questions which are asked. May I point out that the statement I made on July 22 was not a statement in answer to a question which was on the order paper, but was a statement in answer to a complaint which my hon. friend made to the effect that the question on the order paper had not been answered and that sufficient time had been given for it, and with the sarcastic remark that he was sure he would be lucky in following the example set by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) in asking for a reply tomorrow. The answer which he has read was made in reply to that statement. There is no point of order at all. He has read my reply, to the criticism he then made, and my reply stands, subject to your ruling, Mr. Speaker.
With regard to the matter of privilege, I submit that there is no question of privilege on the point whether or not a question shall be answered aDd how quickly it shall be 44561-314
answered. I have already stated that I have given instructions to my department that this question is to take its usual turn. I do not regard the information as important in the public interest, nor the work involved in getting it as being nearly so important as some of the activities that are being engaged in at the department. But that does not mean that it has been slowed up. As a matter of fact, I made inquiries yesterday morning and they are getting the information as quickly as they can. Reference is made to 410 officers. Some of them are not in the department at all. Some have come to the department since the telephone book was published. The request is for the name, rank, age, military record, country of origin and branch of each one of 142 persons who are said to be bilingual; secondly, 137 persons who have not resided in Canada during the past five years; thirdly, 131 persons whose names appeared in the directory and who have been moved away from headquarters; and in the fourth place, people who have come to headquarters since the directory was published and whose names are not listed. Then it asks, in addition to all that, how many of all these persons, except the first 142 were in the British army on September 1, 1939. That involves a number of cases that must be inquired into individually, because one cannot give an answer to the question until one has made a complete inquiry of all these persons, nearly 400 of them. The next question is, were they stationed from time to time at the British war office. In that regard one must also make the same inquiry of them. And thirdly, who were they, in each particular case.
On the question of privilege, respecting the time taken to answer the question, my hon. friend has no ground whatever. With regard to the second question of privilege, with respect to the editorial, I am not responsible for that article. It .may have been inspired by what I said in the house, but I do not know. At any rate, that is a matter for the editor of the paper and I can assure my hon.-the hon. member for Temiscouata, of this-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dropped.


James Layton Ralston: -that it was not inspired by anyone in the Department of National Defence.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dropped.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his friendly answer and I hope that I get the information on January 27, 1943.

Questions


James Layton Ralston: You will get it before that.


Jean-François Pouliot: But, sir, may I be permitted to quote correctly one statement made by the minister at page 4518 of Hansard of July 22: If the house will take the trouble to read the question it will find out how much detail is involved and how futile the work is after it is all done.
Mr. Pouliot: Mr. Speaker, I protest strongly against the words of the leader of the opposition.
I made that statement after the minister had called my question futile.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dropped.


Georges Parent: A question of privilege has been raised by the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot). That of course is a privilege which may be exercised by all members of the house, but it is one that should not be taken advantage of unduly or unnecessarily. When a question of privilege is before the house the member who complains should state as briefly and concisely as possible what it is that he complains of, and make whatever rebuttal is necessary. To-day I would say there has been no question of privilege in the matters placed before the house by the hon. member for Temiscouata. The hon. member had the right to inquire with regard to the answer to the question he has placed upon the order paper. The minister in charge has given his reply to it.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dropped.
Question stands.


MANUFACTURE OF GLUE
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Has the government recently let a contract or otherwise made arrangements for the production or manufacture of animal glues?
2.	If so, to what company and upon what terms ?
3.	Are there any glue factories in Canada that manufacture animal glues?
4.	If so, where are they located?
5.	Were the Canadian companies given an opportunity to tender for the contract?
6.	Have arrangements been made whereby export to the United States of necessary raw materials for glue manufacture and the return to Canada of the glue made from the said raw materials will be permitted?
7.	If so, what quantity of raw material may be exported and what quantity or percentage of the glue produced trom the said raw materials is to be returned to this country?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	No. Informal arrangements have been made whereby dry prairie bones many be 
shipped to glue manufacturers in the United States on condition that two-thirds of the glue produced therefrom will be returned to Canada if required.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Yes.
4.	W. Harris & Co., Limited, Toronto; Canada Glue Company Limited, Brantford; Meredith, Simmons & Co., Limited, Toronto; and Canac-Marquis Limited, Quebec.
5.	Answered by 1.
6.	Answered by 1.
7.	Answered by 1.


GASOLINE RATIONING-USE OF TRUCKS BY FARMERS
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Has the government given consideration to directing the issue of a blanket permit to farmers who have no other means of transportation than farm trucks whereby they may use their farm trucks for their personal transportation subject to conformity with gasoline and rubber restrictive regulations?
2.	If so, what decision has been arrived at?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	Yes.
2.	After careful consideration it was decided not to issue blanket permits as it is imperative to have effective control over the operation of farm trucks in order not only to save gasoline but also to conserve existing equipment since the manufacture of new trucks and equipment has been diverted almost entirely to war purposes. However, individual permits are readily granted to farmers without other means of transportation for themselves, their families, employees and neighbours, and these permits are obtainable in every province without formality.


FAIRMONT RUBBER COMPANY
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	When was the Fairmont Rubber Company formed?
2.	What are the names of the directors and what were their former occupations?
3.	What is their connection, if any, with the H. Muehlstein & Co., 122 East 44th street, New York?
4.	Is the rubber shipped by salvage committees invoiced to H. Muehlstein & Co.? If so, Why?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Fairmont Company Limited was formed May 16, 1940. Reference No. 107283.
2.	H. C. Jeffries, president and director; former occupation, president, Viceroy Manufacturing Company Limited, 345 Royce avenue,

Toronto; J. A. Hodgson, vice-president and managing director; former occupation, partner, C. J. Hodgson & Co., 360 St. James street W., Montreal; W. G. Jephcott, secretary-treasurer and director; former occupation, partner, P. S. Ross & Sons, Royal Bank Building, Toronto; F. G. Donaldson, director; former occupation, president, Montreal Trust Co., Montreal; T. C. Lockwood, director; former occupation, transport controller, Ottawa; H. C. F. Mockridge, director; former occupation, barrister-at-law, Osier, Hoskin & Harcourt, Dominion Bank Building, Toronto; D. A. Paterson, director, former occupation, H. A. Astlett & Co., 64 Water street, New York, N.Y.
3.	None whatever, directly or indirectly.
4.	H. Muehlstein & Company, Inc., have been the chief suppliers of scrap rubber to the Dominion Rubber Company regenerating plant in Montreal for a number of years, and are still supplying them under contract. When Fairmont Company first entered the scrap rubber field, and during the organization period, in order that there should be no delay in getting scrap rubber collected by salvage committees into the war effort, certain cars which were shipped to Dominion Rubber Company, were on instructions of Fairmont Company, invoiced to H. Muehlstein & Company, Inc. In each case H. Muehlstein & Company, Inc., agreed with Fairmont Company Limited to pay the salvage committee the full and correct price offered by Fairmont Company Limited, and also to assume all freight charges from point of shipment, so that in each case the salvage committees received the same number of dollars for the scrap rubber which they shipped as they would have received had they dealt only with Fairmont Company Limited. All scrap rubber sold by H. Muehlstein & Company, Inc., to Dominion Rubber Company was invoiced by the former to the latter at contract prices which are less than the prices which would have been charged by Fairmont Company to Dominion Rubber Company for the same scrap rubber.


VITAMIN B BREAD
Mr. DUBOIS:: What is the government doing to encourage the use of flour with vitamin B for the making of Canada approved bread?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Vitamin B white bread (Canada approved) and vitamin B bread (Canada approved) can only be made with vitamin B white flour (Canada approved) and vitamin B flour
44561-314J
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(Canada approved) respectively. Hence, any encouragement in the use of the said breads is an encouragement in the use of the said flours.
The original announcements in the press have been followed by radio broadcasts, preparation of articles for publications reaching the housewife, informative talks to and correspondence with the managements of cafeterias in war industries and the purchasing authorities of many departments of the government, all of which form part of a comprehensive educational programme in nutrition which is being promoted by the department.
middle CAPE, N.S., STORAGE MAGAZINE-SWIVEL POINT GUARDS' QUARTERS


Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	What was the total cost of the storage magazine at Middle Cape, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia?
2.	Was the site for the magazine changed after tenders were opened?
3.	If so, what was the reason for such change?
4.	What additional cost, if any, was there on the new location over the previous tender?
5.	Were tenders called for building of guards' quarters at Swivel Point, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia?
6.	If so, what was the estimated cost of such quarters and the cost when completed?
7.	Was the location changed after tenders were closed?
8.	If so, what was the additional cost, if any, occasioned by the change of location?


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	$33,780.
2.	Yes.
3.	The change was in the interest of security and safety. It was because of its contiguity to another establishment the site of which I think the hon. member knows.
4.	$956.
5.	No.
6.	7 and 8. In view of the answer to question 5, these questions are not applicable.


NEW BRUNSWICK AND NOVA SCOTIA MILK CONTROL BOARD
Mr. PURDY:: 1.	Who are the members of the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia milk control board?
2.	By whom were they appointed?
3.	What remuneration do they receive?
4.	What w'ere their occupations in business life?


James Lorimer Ilsley: This information is not of official government record.
Questions

* CANADIAN WOMEN'S ARMY	CORPS-OTTAWA


LADIES' COLLEGE PROPERTY
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	What price was paid for the acquisition of the Ottawa Ladies' College for the Canadian Women's Army Corps?
2.	What was, (a) the assessed value of the property; (b) the insured value, without furnishings, at time of purchase?
3.	What real estate firm handled the project, and what commissions were paid?
4.	What mortgages were held, in what amount, and to whom payable?
5.	To what body is the purchase money payable?


James Layton Ralston: I can answer orally except as to the assessed value. The real point of the question is as to the price paid. The price has not been fixed. The property is being taken over. If a satisfactory price is not agreed upon, the value will be fixed by the exchequer court. I think perhaps that answers the question as far as my hon. friend needs it. I do not think any real estate firm was engaged. I know the real estate adviser of the department was in direct communication with Mr. Fraser Elliott, who is the chairman of the board of directors.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Could we have the mortgages?


James Layton Ralston: If there is any further information my friend wants I will endeavour to get it, but I should like to have the question considered as answered now.


*NATI0NAL RESEARCH COUNCIL-EMPLOYEES
Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	How many persons are employed by the national research council?
2.	What is the nationality of all persons so employed?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	The total number of employees of the national research council, as of July 17, 1942, was 1,036.
2.	In order to give an exact answer to the second question it will be necessary to examine the personal file of each of the 1,036 employees, and this in turn involves the collecting of all such files as are at present in use and distributed throughout the entire organization. Consequently, to secure this information within two or three days would be extremely difficult and cause considerable disruption of work. In view of the fact that the end of the business of this part of the session is so close at hand it may be sufficient for the hon. member's purpose if I state that I am informed

by the personnel officer of the national research council that he is satisfied that all employees of the council are British subjects, with the exception of not more than six United States citizens and one Belgian citizen. In addition, all employees of the council, including both the regular peace-time staff and the temporary war staff, have been investigated by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The policy of having such an investigation made in connection with each appointee was adopted some time ago.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That
answers the question as far as it goes, but I think the hon. member has something more in mind. I understood that at one time there were officers in the national research council of German nationality. What it is desired to know is if there are any of them left, and if any of those who are now of British nationality are of German origin.


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: My purpose in answering this question this morning instead of having it stand was to oblige the hon. member who asked the question, because if I simply said "stand" the information could not be brought down in part or in whole before adjournment. If the hon. member wishes to put another question on the order paper he can do so, but I believe the answer given by me fully covers the staff as at present organized.


INCOME TAX-ESTIMATED REVENUE FROM SALARY DEDUCTIONS FOR TAX PURPOSES
Mr. ROY:: What is the estimated amount that will be received by the government from taxes deducted from salaries during the fiscal year 1942-43?


James Lorimer Ilsley: In the budget speech delivered in the House of Commons on June 23, 1942, the Minister of Finance forecast personal income tax in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1942, to amount to $435,000,000. This amount represents income tax collected on salaries and all other personal income. There has been no estimate made of the amount to be collected from income tax on salaries alone.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What is the total cost to the government of Canada of the wartime prices and trade board as on April 30, 1942, under the following headings, (a) wages and salaries to employees,

Housing
(b)	rentals, travelling expenses, office furniture and equipment, (c) advertising, (d) subsidies, (i) domestic goods, (ii) imported goods?
R.C.A.F. (women's DIVISION)-UNIFORMS


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	How many officers and how many airwomen are enlisted in the Royal Canadian Air Force (women's divisioni) ?
2. What contracts had been let to June 1,	1942, and in what quantities, for, (a) winter uniforms, complete; (b) summer outfits, complete?
3. To whom were these let, and in what amount?
4.	Is any change contemplated now in the winter uniform of, (a) officers, (b) airwomen,
(c)	if so, what, (d) on whose recommendation, (e) why, (f) what designers or contractors have been asked or have submitted models?
5.	If any changes are made, how will the cost of new issues be met, (a) for officers, (b) for airwomen, (c) what will be the cost to the treasury?
6.	What will be done with, (a) stores in hand, (b) uniforms in use?
7.	Are the material, man-power and general production conditions such as will justify the suggested changes at this time?


FERNAND CHOQUETTE
[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROY;
1.	Has Mr. Fernand Choquette, lawyer of Montmagny, Quebec, been employed by the government during the years 1935 to 1940, inclusive?
2.	If so, (a) in what capacity, (b) what amount was paid to him during each of these years?

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Joseph Sasseville Roy: There is a worry from which I cannot get away, and before the house adjourns until next year I should like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. Having in mind the ever-grbwing uncertainty resulting from the gravity of present war figures, is the government considering the imperative necessity, for our survival, of consecrating all Canada's energies to the immediate organization of the country's defence?
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister); I have just seen the hon. member's question for the first time. May I say to my hon. friend that the government is taking all possible steps for the defence of Canada and devoting to the full its thought and energy to that end.


HOUSING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Yesterday I received two telegrams in regard to the very serious housing situation in Toronto. One is from Mayor Conboy and City Clerk J. W. Somers, O.BK. I should like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) whether there will be a statement regarding the availability of material and the issue of some instructions based on a policy of housing? Thousands of houses are very much needed and to build them will take some time.


James Lorimer Ilsley: In a minute or two.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: On the orders of the day, yesterday, I undertook to make a statement on Wartime Housing, and the part that it is intended to play in meeting the housing requirements, particularly of munitions workers, and also in meeting the needs of cities and municipalities in their general housing problem.
Wartime Housing Limited is a crown company charged with the responsibility of providing necessary housing for workers in war industries. The houses built by this corporation vary in size to suit varying family needs. It has been the purpose to build comfortable houses in pleasant surroundings at a minimum of cost, to meet the requirements of a temporary population. The intention is that after the war, when the population tends to return to its former localities, such of war-time houses as are not then required will be moved from the cities, or sold, to be converted into permanent homes.
Agreements have been made with the cities and provincial governments covering payments for services to suit the needs of a temporary situation. Wartime Housing Limited pays for its own local improvements and requires no expenditure on the part of the city. The houses are well spaced, and adequate playground facilities are provided where a considerable number of houses are grouped. In my opinion, the housing units are attractive, and the houses themselves are a source of pride to the tenants. While I have heard the houses criticized in this house, I have yet to receive a complaint from one of the tenants.
The houses are built by mass production methods, which is the only practical way of
Housing

keeping up with the rapidly expanding requirements of the war industries. Lumber, hardware, fixtures, and other supplies, are purchased at wholesale prices, and a minimum of scarce materials is released to these projects by the government controllers. I know of no other method of building quickly a large number of houses under present conditions.
In addition to houses for families, staff houses are built to accommodate unmarried munitions workers, these staff houses containing a cafeteria and limited recreational facilities. These staff houses are, in general, well managed, and all are filled to capacity.
While Wartime Housing Limited is charged particularly with responsibility for providing housing required by war industry, it is recognized that cities and municipalities have a serious problem in providing housing for their permanent population, not directly engaged in war production. Wartime Housing Limited has in the past assisted cities in meeting this problem, and is prepared to do so in the future to an increasing extent. It must be recognized that housing for permanent population is the responsibility of the city or municipality, and therefore Wartime Housing Limited can assist the local authority, but cannot assume the' full burden.
A plan has been worked out, and is now in operation, whereby Wartime Housing Limited will build a reasonable number of houses of a design, or designs, to be mutually agreed upon with the local authority, under the following conditions:
1.	Building area, or areas, to be zoned for residential purposes and no inferior houses to be erected therein;
2.	Site, or sites, to be conveyed by the city to the company for a nominal consideration, subject to reconveyance back on the termination of the project;
3.	Cost of construction of houses, streets, grading, water, sewers, and other necessary improvements, to be paid by Wartime Housing Limited;
4.	The city undertakes to lease the housing project for the duration of the war plus five years thereafter, at a rental to be agreed upon, and the city further agrees to administer the project and bear the expenses of administration, renting the houses to deserving citizens at reasonable rentals;
5.	The company will make payment for services to the city as called for under the usual wartime housing municipal agreement;

6.	Reasonable arrangements to be made for the disposal of assets at the termination of the agreement.
Under such an arrangement, the federal government is prepared to bear the capital cost of facilities required to meet the problems of the families of men serving overseas, and other deserving cases of hardship to permanent residents.
It must be recognized that the case of a war worker in a munitions plant, brought to a city for temporary residence, differs materially from the case of a permanent resident, dispossessed by the sale of property previously rented, or by other circumstances beyond the control of the tenant. The former has been accepted by the federal government as its responsibility, but the latter is definitely the responsibility of the local authorities. In helping to solve both problems, the government, through Wartime Housing, is doing all in its power to avoid hardships arising out of housing difficulties, at a time when private building is greatly handicapped by material shortages.


Thomas Langton Church: I suggest that $3,000,000 would hardly solve the problem in Ottawa alone. Could not consideration be given in the recess to increasing the amount to $10,000,000 for this and the next fiscal year?


Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Did I understand the minister to say he had received no complaints from the tenants regarding these wartime houses? I sent him a signed petition some time ago from tenants in Hull. Did he not receive it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It did not come to my attention. It might have been handled by my secretarial staff, but I did not see it. What was the nature of -the petition? What were they asking for-lower rents?


Major James William Coldwell: Yes. The complaint
was mainly regarding rent.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Everyone would like lower rents.
Mr. COLDW'ELL: But the minister should look at the houses and see what they are getting for their rent.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They do not have to live in them.


Thomas Langton Church: I hope none of the material to be used will be stolen from the C.C.F. platform.

Labour Conditions


ARRANGEMENTS FOR HANDLING 1942 CROP- STORAGE ON FARMS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Will the Minister of Trade and Commerce undertake, before the house adjourns, to acquaint hon. members with the plans of the wheat board for handling the 1942 crop? Hon. members will be scattering to their homes; we are now getting close to harvesting, and hon. members will be bombarded with questions relating to the terms and conditions under which the 1942 crop will be handled. Would the ministei undertake to give us some statement before we adjourn?


James Angus MacKinnon: I doubt very much whether I shall be ready to make any statement on the point mentioned before the house adjourns. If we are here for some days yet I imagine I may be able to do so, and I shall be very glad to do so; but if the information is not available which would enable me to make a statement before the end of this part of the session, I shall do so as soon as possible through the press. However, I think the announcement will be made and information given to farmers of western Canada by the wheat board, over the radio and through the press, as to the result of their decisions.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the minister cannot give a complete answer now, will he say whether a decision has been arrived at as to whether the wheat board or the government propose to pay farmers for storage on their farms?


James Angus MacKinnon: No decision has been reached as yet on that point.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has any
decision been reached with reference to giving farmers assistance in securing materials for the construction of storage facilities?


James Angus MacKinnon: That matter is not connected with my department, at least directly; I think it is a matter for the province in the first place, and then possibly for representations to this government if the province is unable to handle it. But in spite of the fact that it is not a direct responsibility of my department, considerable attention is being given to that phase of the matter at the present time.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Did the minister say it was a responsibility of the province?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1942-43
[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1943, was presented by Hon. J. L. Usley (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ROBERT FAIR (Battle River):: I
should like to direct attention of the appropriate minister to a telegram I received just before entering the house. It is dated) at Chauvin, Alberta, July 29, and reads:
In view of extreme urgency harvest labour situation we urge that you do all possible to have available man-power released for farm w-ork this season. Necessity of ceiling on farm labour and harvesting operation prices indicates definite action required in this direction immediately.
Chauvin and District Board of Trade Council of the Village of Chauvin
This question was brought up on different occasions, and so far nothing definite has been decided. I should like to know this morning what the position is, because the house is likely to adjourn shortly.


James Layton Ralston: Speaking for the armed services
may I say that the hon. member is not quite correct. The house will perhaps recall that I made what at least I regarded as a complete statement about a week ago. I followed that up by seeing to it that the order which had gone out was sent to all districts. That was an order providing that in respect of certain personnel harvesting leave could be granted at the discretion of the district officer commanding always having regard to military exigencies. I pointed out when I spoke that the units from which that leave could be granted were very limited, and I believe that the order was limited to depots and veteran guards.
Those orders have been given. Further than that I cannot go, except to say that in individual cases, where compassionate grounds are shown, leave might be granted for harvesting. Compassionate cases, however, do not apply particularly for harvesting leave, but for any situation covered by those regulations. If members of the forces come within the compassionate leave provision, then the

C.N.R.-Guarantee oj Securities
district officers commanding are permitted to grant leave, if they consider the military exigencies permit.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: To whom
must proof of grounds for compassionate leave be submitted? Would it be to the national war services board in the military district, or to the officer commanding?


James Layton Ralston: It is submitted to the
commanding officer of the unit. He makes his examination and refers it to the district officer commanding.


Robert Fair: I was aware the Minister of
National Defence had made the statement he has just reiterated. I think we have to hear from the Minister of Finance; he has been silent on the matter.


CANADIAN FORCES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: May I ask the Minister of National Defence if during the adjournment he and his defence colleagues will give consideration to the pay received by members of his majesty's forces, so as to remove the inequalities and injustices which exist in the present schedules of pay and allowances for the three arms of the services?


James Layton Ralston: I will note my hon. friend's question, and give consideration to it.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 124, to authorize the provision of moneys to meet certain capital expenditures made and capital indebtedness incurred by the Canadian National Railway system during the calendar year 1942, to provide for the refunding of financial obligations and to authorize the guarantee by his majesty of certain securities to be issued by the Canadian National Railway Company.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister be good enough to place on Hansard
[Mr. Ralston.f
the table showing loans maturing in the United States and falling due from time to time, issued by the Canadian National Railways and guaranteed by the government of Canada? I have referred to this matter on one or two occasions. The minister has prepared such a table, which I have had the opportunity of seeing, and I should like to have it a matter of public record.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: Perhaps the minister might make comment on a few observations I should like to make as to the general policy of asking this house to provide the entire moneys necessary not only for the capital obligations maturing but also for betterments and for additions. In days gone by these amounts became an out-ofproportion capital charge against the organization known as the Canadian National Railways, owing to the fact that it was unable to pay interest. No doubt some of that interest was capitalized in those days. At the same time I presume the minister will give us some idea as to what proportion of these obligations may be coming due in the United States and in sterling. When the railway company or any public ownership enterprise is short of funds or has a deficit, as has obtained to a very great degree in days gone by in connection with this railway, they borrow more money from the government of Canada. When there are flowing revenues and surpluses it should be the policy at least to pay for the betterments, general additions and purchases of new equipment, out of surpluses they are accumulating. That obtains in ordinary private business, and if our publicly owned enterprises are to succeed it should obtain in connection with them, also, more than it does at the present time.


Thomas Langton Church: With regard to this method of financing, we should have an explanation from one of the ministers as to the amount of bonds and other securities paid off out of income, if any, and the principal amount due. Railway rates are too high to-day, when we allow for surpluses and the amount of money the railways are making out of the war. Some of these amounts should be retired. The bill authorizes the Canadian National Railway Company to issue bonds or other securities, not exceeding $22,360,000 in principal amount, to provide the amounts necessary to meet capital expenditures during the year 1942 for the retirement of maturing capital obligations. Then we find that the word "betterments" is included in the explanatory note,

C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities
and there is a reference to the purchase of new equipment. I have failed to see any new equipment, and I travel a good deal on the railways. In Ontario we are the neglected province, particularly when one compares the equipment given to the United States affiliations of the system with that given in Ontario, and particularly that allotted to the use of the soldiers.
As a private member of this house I must say that I am surprised to see on a railway called the National railway cars that are not fit for human habitation, used by soldiers going to camps in Ontario.
We should have some statement as to the policy of the government with regard to this railroad and its war work. I know that a reference of the railway estimates is made to the railway committee but we never hear from
it until the dying hours of the session. The Canadian National Railway charges soldiers' dependents $2.40 to go up to Camp Borden for the week-end. That is ridiculous, particularly when there are hundreds of cars that could be used. That is just one example. Similar rates apply to various other camps near the city and across Canada, and it hurts recruiting. I do not think it is fair on a railway that is called the National railway to have some of the cars that I see used for transporting the troops to and from camps. I do not blame the present government for it; I do not blame anybody, but I ask that some improvement be made in equipment.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Chairman, I have here the table requested by the leader of the opposition. It is a long table, but I think it can be printed in Hansard:



[Stage Direction]
Statement of Securities Payable in United States Funds Only or Optionally in United States Funds Outstanding as at December 31, 1922,
December 31, 1930, and December 31, 1941
Name of Security
4j% Equipment Trust Notes "C"	
5	% Equipment Trust Notes "D"	
0 % Equipment Trust Notes U.S.R.A	
4	% Canada Atlantic First Mortgage Bonds 7 % Sinking Fund Debenture Bonds	
6	% Sinking Fund Debenture Bonds	
6}% Equipment Trust Certificates "F"...
7	% Sinking Fund Debenture Bonds	
0\% Sinking Fund Debenture Bonds	
4	% Consolidated Debenture Bonds	
4	% Ontario Division Bonds	
4	% Winnipeg Terminal Bonds	
4^% Prince Albert Branch Bonds	
4-j% First Mortgage Debenture Bonds....
41% First Mortgage Debenture Bonds	
5	% First Mortgage Bonds	
4	% First Mortgage Gold Bonds	
5	% First Mortgage Bonds	
5	% Mortgage Gold Bonds	
6	% Equipment Trust Notes "E"	
6	% U.S. Government Notes	
6	% U.S. Government Note	
6 % American Locomotive Note	
3	% First Mortgage Bonds	
4	% Sterling Bonds	
4i% Ten Year Gold Bonds	
4j% Thirty Year Gold Bonds	
4\% Thirty Year Gold Bonds	
Q% Forty Year Gold Bonds	
5	% Forty Year Gold Bonds	
5 % Forty Year Gold Bonds	
5	% Forty Year Gold Bonds	
4|% Twenty-five Year Gold Bonds	
4 % First Mortgage Bonds	
4 % First Mortgage Bonds	
4 % First Mortgage Bonds	
Issuing Company	Date of Issue	Date of Maturity	Principal Outstanding as at December 31, 1922	Principal Outstanding as at December 31, 1930	Principal Outstanding as at December 31, 1941$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.G.T.R.	Nov.	1,1913	Semi-annually to Nov. 1, 1923	224,000 00	G.T.R.	Aug.	1,1917	Semi-annually to Aug. 1, 1927	1,250,000 00	G.T.R.	Jan.	15,1920	Serially Jan.	15,	1935	778,700 00	299,500 00	G.T.R.	Jan.	1,1905	Jan.	1,	1955	16,000,092 00	16,000,092 00	16,000,092 02G.T.R.	Oct.	1,1920	Oct.	1,	1940	24,743,000 00	24,743,000 00	G.T.R.	Sept.	1,1921	Sept.	1,	1936	25,000,000 00	25,000,000 00	G.T.R.	Feb.	1,1921	Feb.	1,	1936	11,230,000 00	11,230,000 00	Can. Nor.	Dec.	1,1920	Dec.	1,	1940	24,793,000 00	24,793,000 00	Can. Nor.	July	1,1921	July	1,	1946	25,000,000 00	25,000,000 00	23,897,000 00Can. Nor.	June	30,1904	June	30,	1930	10,784,046 65	Can. Nor.	Sept.	30,1901	June	30,	1930	5,675,506 67	Can. Nor.	July	1,1909	July	1,	1939	3,000,000 00	3,000,000 00	Can. Nor.	Dec.	31,1903	June	30,	1930	300,000 00	C.N.W.	Feb.	1914	Feb.	16,	1942	1,000,000 00	1,000,000 00	*1,000,000 00C.N.W.	March	1914	Oct.	22,	1943	1,391,000 00	1,391,000 00	1,391,000 00Bay of Quinte	Jan.	2,1902	Jan.	2,	1927	730,000 00	G.N. of Can.	Oct.	1,1904	Oct.	1,	1934	3,510,250 00	3,510,250 00	N. St. C.&T.	Nov.	1,1899	Nov.	1,	1929	1,098,000 00	C.V.R.	May	1,1920	May	1,	1930	9,331,400 00	C.V.R.	April	29,1922	Serially to May	1,	1930	401,000 00	C.V.R.	Oct.	26,1921	Oct.	26,	1926	128,000 00	C.V.R.	Aug.	8,1921	Serially to Aug.	8,	1926	52,000 00	C.V.R.	Oct.	1,1921	May	1,	1923	50,000 00	G.T.P.	July	1,1905	Jan.	1,	1962	34,992,000 00	34,992,000 00	34,992,000 00G.T.P.	July	1,1914	Jan.	1,	1962	8,440,848 00	8,440,848 00	8,440,848 00Can. Nor.	Feb.	15,1925	Feb.	15,	1935	17,000,000 00	Can. Nat.	Sept.	15,1924	Sept.	15,	1954	26,000,000 00	Can. Nat.	July	1,1927	July	1,	1957	65,000,000 00	65,000,000 00Can. Nat.	Dec.	1,1928	Dec.	1,	1968	35,000,000 00	Can. Nat.	July	1,1929	July	1,	1969	60,000,000 00	60,000,000 00Can. Nat.	Oct.	1,1929	Oct.	1,	1969	60,000,000 00	60,000,000 00Can. Nat.	Feb.	1,1930	Feb.	1,	1970	18,000,000 00	18,000,000 00Can. Nat.	June	15,1930	June	15,	1955	50,000,000 00	50,000,000 00G.T.P.B.L.	May	1,1909	Jan.	22,	1939	9,874,062 00	9,874,062 00	G.T.P.B.L.	May	1,1912	Feb.	15,	1942	1,153,764 00	1,153,764 00	*1,153,764 00G.T.P.B.L.	May	1,1909	Feb.	25,	1939	2,430,000 00	2,430,000 00	
-fc-
(O
[Stage Direction]

o
C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities
3j% First Mortgage Bonds	
4 % First Mortgage Bonds	
4 % Second Mortgage Bonds "A"	
4 % Second Mortgage Bonds "B"	
4	% First Mortgage Bonds "L.S.B."	
7 % Equipment Trust Series "E"	
6 % Equipment Trust "A" 1918	
6 % Equipment Trust "B" 1919	
6 % Equipment Trust "C"	
6 % Equipment Trust "D"	
4J% Equipment Trust "F 1"	
45% Equipment Trust "G 1"	
5	% Equipment Trust "H 1"	
5 % Equipment Trust "K 1"	
5 % Equipment Trust "L 1"	
5	% First Mortgage Bonds	
4	% First Mortgage Bonds	
6	% Equipment Trust U.S.R.A	
4J% First Mortgage Series "A" Bonds....
5	% Equipment Trust Issue of 1929	
5 % Equipment Turst Issue of 1929, C.V.R-
45% Equipment Trust Series "H"	
45% Equipment Trust Series "J"	
5 % Equipment Trust Series "K"	
45% Equipment Trust Series "L"	
45% First Mortgage S.F.'Goid Bonds	
5 % Equipment Trust Series "F"	
5 % Equipment Trust Issue of 1929	
4	% First Mortgage Gold Bonds	
5	% First Mortgage S.F. Gold Bonds	
45% Twenty-five Year Guaranteed Bonds..
45% Twenty Year Guaranteed Bonds	
2|% Equipment Trust G.T.W	
55% Five Year Notes	
5 % Three Year Notes	
45% Equipment Bonds	
N.E. Elev.	July
Port Elev.	Jan.
G.T.P.	April
G.T.P.	April
G.T.P.	April
Can. Nor.	May
Can. Nor.	July
Can. Nor.	Jan.
Can. Nor.	May
Can. Nor.	Dec.
Can. Nor.	March
Can. Nor.	March
Can. Nor.	Dec.
Can. Nor.	Oct.
Can. Nor.	Aug.
C.N.C.&O.D.	Jan.
G.T.W.	Nov.
G.T.W.	Jan.
G.T.W.	Jan.
G.T.W.	Dec.
G.T.W.	Dec.
Can. Nat.	July
Can. Nat.	May
Can. Nat.	May
Can. Nat.	June
M.T.R.B.L.	Dec.
C.V.	Oct.
C.V.	Dec.
M. & P.L.	Oct.
R. & R.C.Co.	April
Can. Nat.	Feb.
Can. Nat.	Sept.
G.T.W.	June
Can. Nor.	Dec.
Can. Nor. G.T.M.C.F.	March
Co.
6 % Five Year Collateral Trust Notes,
Can. Nor.
Aug.
1,1901
1,1897
1.1905
1.1905
1.1905 1,1920
1.1918
1.1919
1.1919
1.1919
1.1913
1.1913
1.1913
1.1914
1.1916
1.1916 30,1900 15,1920
1,1930
14.1929
14.1929
1.1924 1,1927
1.1929
1.1930 25,1927
1.1924
14.1929 1,1900 1,1908
1.1931
1.1931 1,1941
1.1919 1,1922
1,1919
Serially	July	i,	1941	190,000 00Serially	Jan.	i,	1937	75,000 00April	i.	1955	10,206,000 00April	i,	1955	9,^63,000 00April	i,	1955	7,533,000 00May	i,	1935	14,000,000 00Serially	to July	i,	1928	2,600,000 00it	"Jan.	i,	1929	4,500.000 00it	" May	i,	1929	4,875,000 00li	" Dec.	i,	1929	5,250,000 00it	March	i,	1923	220,000 00it	Marcl	i,	1923	55,000 00Dec.	i,	1923	70,000 00it	Oct.	i,	1924	425,000 00it	Aug.	i,	1926	524,000 00Jan.	i,	1936	1,375,000 00July	i,	1950	7,165,500 00Serially	Jan.	15,	1935	2,684,500 00Jan.	1,	1980	Serially it	to Dec.	14,	1944	Dec.	14,	1944	ti	July	1,	1939	a	May	1,	1942	a	May	1,	1944	tt	June	1,	1945	Oct.	1,	1955	Serially	to Oct.	1,	1932	a	Dec.	14,	1944	Oct.	1,	1950	200,000 00April	1,	1938	1,546,000 00Feb.	1,	1956	Sept.	1,	1951	Serially	to June	1,	1951	6,000,000 00Dec.	1,	1924	March 1,	1925 1923	11,000,000 00 17,000 00110,000	00	35,000	00	10,206,000	00	10,206,000	009,963,000	00	9,963,000	007,533,000	00	7,533,000	0014,000,000	00	1.375.000	007.165.500	001.032.500	00 400,000 003.955.000	005.625.000	00 12,000,000 00 16,800,000 00 15,750,000 003.012.000	00191.000	001.725.000	00200.000	00
1,048,COO 00
7,165,500 00
400.000	00
842.000	00
133.000	00
1,000,000 00
3.600.000	00
4.200.000	00
228,000 00
200,000 00
70.000.	000 00
50.000.	000 00 1,715,000 00
Aug. 1, 1924
4,349,000 00
318,183,66932	635,983,51600
507,060,204 00
[Stage Direction]

£
Increase over 1922	
Decrease 1941 over 1930
317,799,846 68 188,876,534 68	 128,923,312 00
Note.-'Retired at maturity.	_	,	....	.„
Annual interest charges on Principal Outstanding on December 31, 1941 - $23,272,173.1b. 11% Premium on *23,272,173.16 = $2,559,939.05.
C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities
James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. member for Dan-forth asked what amounts are coming due this year payable in United States funds. We have payable in Canadian currency, $4,089,141; payable in Canadian or United States currency, $2,250,000; payable in United States currency, $2,407,000; payable in sterling, $1,049,117; making a total of $9,795,258.
As to the other question that has been raised, the advisability or possibility of paying for additions and betterments out of revenues, the acting Minister of Transport will make a statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, the railway follows the standard practice for accounting set up by the interstate commerce commission, which has been adopted by the government as standard practice for the railway. It provides for certain items being charged to maintenance, certain to operating expenses, and certain others to capital, and the segregations are quite sharp. The Canadian National Railway, of course, is making substantial earnings now over all charges-that is, over the requirements of the funded debt, maintenance, depreciation and the retirement of equipment trust certificates as they come due. Theoretically, that is, if there were no standard accounting practice, these funds could be used, I suppose, to build new equipment; but it must be borne in mind that 40 per cent of the railway income is paid to the federal government in taxes, and anything over standard profits, which is not likely to be earned, would be paid to the government in one form or another.
As a matter of fact the Canadian National Railway has always been short of working capital. At a time such as the present, when large stocks are required to overcome material shortages, the railway is very short of working capital, and any surplus earnings this year will be devoted, I think, to building up working capital. The Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act requires that all earnings of the railway shall be returned to the government, and it is really for the government to agree with the railway as to what disposition can be made of its earnings. Under the act they must be paid into the federal treasury. I would also point out that under the Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act not one dollar can be spent for capital improvements, either rolling stock or otherwise, except by vote of parliament. Canadian National Steamships have been earning substantial surpluses for some years, yet an item is necessary in the estimates to provide for capital expenses, and the capital expenses are voted by parliament even though they could easily be paid out of surplus.


Joseph Henry Harris: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to prolong the discussion, but the minister knows that the accounting practice of the Canadian National railway system is not exactly on all fours with the practice of the interstate commerce commission. True that is with regard to equipment trusts, and with regard to the major items which control the accounting practice of all class A railways in the United States; but the minister knows that the practice .followed in the case of class A railways governed by the interstate commerce commission permits the setting up of depreciation charges for a large portion of the equipment, and these depreciation charges are earned out of the operations and are written off from year to year to a much greater-extent than obtains in the Canadian National railway system. Under practice here, and it receives the approval of a large body of public opinion, as it applies to equipment trusts and so forth, once a piece of equipment of any kind is capitalized and goes on the books of the organization, the sum of money which it represents remains there at its full value until that particular piece of equipment is retired to the scrap heap, and then it is written off. That practice does not entirely obtain under the interstate commerce commission with regard to class A railways in the United States.
I am making these observations not in any critical spirit, but constructively, so that in the next twenty-five years we may have an end point to the mounting capital structure of the Canadian National railway system, and not let that end point come through having to discard entirely the capitalized equipment which is at present in the system. What obtains in this regard obtains also in regard to the accounting practice of the other Canadian railway, which is not on all fours with that followed by the Canadian National railway system.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have been working for some years toward following the whole interstate commerce commission accounting practice. Last year we set up a depreciation fund of over $9,000,000 for equipment. My understanding is that we_ do conform fully to the interstate commerce commission accounting practice. That is a matter of opinion, but at all events we are practically at that point of dropping the old practice of retiring assets and coming under interstate commerce commission accounting, which provides for a sinking fund. I think that that transition is on the point of being made, that we are very close to the adoption of that practice.
I cannot say definitely because I am only acting minister now.

C.N.R.-Guarantee oj Securities


Mr. NICHOLSON:: Is the cost of the Montreal terminal included in the item of $16,000,000 for general additions and betterments which is mentioned in paragraph (b) of section 2?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The sum of $1,900,000 is included for that purpose.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Would the minister give us a break-down of that 116,000,000?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I can give that. The details are as follows:
General additions and betterments-
Atlantic region	 $1,605,887
Central region	 4,716,179
Western region	 2,509,062
Grand Trunk Western Railroad
Company	 812,924
Central Vermont Railway,	Inc. .	110,867
Hotels	 83,652
Montreal terminals development. 1,900,000 Prince Edward Island car ferry
and terminals	 160,500
Subsidiary companies	 75,410
General, including additions and
betterments to equipment		4,235,519


Mr. DONNELLY:: Is there any hope of having the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Canadian National Railways adopt the same system of accounting, so that we may be able to compare the statements of the two roads?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A committee was formed, I believe in 1937, to bring that about. The committee worked for two years, and at the end of the period submitted a report which was unsatisfactory to both railways. The Canadian National felt that, having worked toward the objective of adopting interstate commerce commission accounting, they did not wish to take a retrograde step. The Canadian Pacific was not prepared to come all the way toward interstate commerce commission accounting practice. The result was a disagreement to the extent that the department dropped the project. It is quite a considerable matter suddenly to change the accounting practices of a railway, and I hardly think that any progress can be expected at present.


Joseph Henry Harris: One-half of the amount asked for in this bill is in the class of betterments, additions to equipment, and charges of the kind, and to my mind if these were analysed by those who are familiar with interstate commerce commission accounting practice, it would be found that half the requirements covered in this bill might be written off against earnings. I merely mention this so that those charged with the responsibility of spending this money will give some thought to retiring what they can of these charges in order that the capitalization of the railway shall not become more and more top-heavy.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The railway is in the hands of its auditors as to whether an item can be charged to betterments or whether it can be written off as maintenance. I should point out that if it is charged to betterments it must be voted in this house under the terms of the Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act. I assume that the railway will have greater earnings this year than are represented b3'r the capital budget; nevertheless we must have the budget too. You might say the railway itself is furnishing the funds to pay for the capital expenditure, but even so a vote of this house is necessary to make it possible to make this budget.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. member for Rose-dale (Mr. Jackman) asked me to give him the page of the appendix to the budget at which can be found the account of the disposition of the 1941 surplus. The page is 3628 of the appendix to the budget speech.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 3, 4 and 5 agreed to.
On section 6-Power to aid other companies.
Joseph Henry Harris: In the case of other companies which are operating with deficits, and our organization known as the Canadian National are part owners of other companies, the practice in days gone by has been that deficits of partly owned railways have been paid by this government, or paid by the Canadian National. This matter was reviewed by the committee, and I just make this observation. It might be far better to let some of these outside companies go through bankruptcy proceedings and then buy them in on behalf of the Canadian National Railways, than to pay their deficits from year to year and keep them alive, or keep the share values of the shareholders who own a portion of the shares in good standing, with a charge, no doubt, of the deficit against their particular shares; but then, with the recovery of business and expanding revenues, these shares which have depreciated to a very little value to-day come back to real value to-morrow. The policy should be to clean these up, letting them go through the bankruptcy courts, buy them in if they must have them, or do not operate them at all, rather than get caught paying deficits for private shareholders.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 7 to 10 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
Precious Metals Marking Act


[Stage Direction]
Hod. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved the second reading of Bill No. 121, to amend the Precious Metals Marking Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair.
On section 1-Gold.
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: This is merely to put the paragraph back in the act?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is all. It was inadvertently left out.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Vien in the chair.
POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT 247. Air and land mail services, $12,957,363. Mr. NICHOLSON: I wish to say a few words in support of the opinions expressed by the hon. member for Saskatoon City (Mr. Bence) when he complained about the practice of post office affairs being administered on a partisan basis in war time. I look forward to the day when the party to which I belong will be administering the affairs of Canada.
Mr. MacNICOL:: In another two thousand years.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: When that time comes I hope the Post Office Department and all other departments of government will be administered by civil servants who are capable of managing the affairs of the various branches of the public service. If they cannot, I fancy others will be found who will be qualified to do so. My experience with the department here leads me to believe that the Postmaster General has a great many capable civil servants under him. It is unfortunate that a policy should be laid down by the government that obliges efficient members of the department to write to defeated party candidates in the country asking them, "Will it meet with your approval if we make certain changes?" And to members of parliament saying, "Such and such changes are proposed; do you think they are advisable?"

I have here sessional paper 348 brought down on July 3. Among these documents I find a letter dated October 15, 1941, to the member for Humboldt (Mr. Fleming), who, both in this house and outside, is a busy man. This letter was written by the chief superintendent of air and land mail services. It states:
I should be glad of your advice as to whether it would be in the public interest to allow this service to remain with the present contractor, *whose name is given, or -whether you consider it would be in the interest of the department to invite tenders for a new contract.
The name of the contractor is D. Thera. The contractor receives the magnificent sum of $324 a year to carry mail along a route about twenty-two miles twice a week. Think of asking a member of parliament if it would be in the public interest to allow this man to continue carrying mail! Unfortunately the member for Humboldt did not think it was in the public interest, but that tenders should be called for. I have here the file showing that tenders were called for, and there is one remarkable statement, apparently indicating government policy, in connection with a returned soldier. The letter is dated December 29. I quote:
In reply, I wish to inform you that there is no preferential treatment in favour of returned soldiers in the matter of awarding mail contracts. All contracts must be awarded, according to the stipulations of the post office act, to the lowest competent tenderer who can furnish two reliable sureties.


Mr. FLEMING:: Will the hon. member be good enough to point out that I stated that a preference should be given to returned soldiers?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The member for
Humboldt did express the opinion that the preference should go to returned soldiers, but the department says that no preferential treatment is to be given. Next I find on April 14 that the lowest tenderer was a man who had carried mail all these years, and according to a letter he submitted to the department he had never been late in calling for the mail or in getting back. There is not a single complaint with reference to him in all these years, travelling in all kinds of weather over all sorts of roads. His was the lowest tender, $324, and the department writes to the member for Humboldt:
As the tenders submitted by the following are considered equal, w'ould you please be good enough to say which of these tenderers you consider as most competent for the performance of a satisfactory service:
D. Thera, Spalding, R.R. No. 1	 $324
Chas. Freestone, Spalding	 325
Walter J. Fouhse, Spalding	 325

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Should you recommend Mr. Freestone or Mr. Fouhse, it will be necessary for him to reduce his tender by $1 in order that it be absolutely equal to that of Mr. Thera.
I submit that this makes a farce of calling for tenders. Here is a man who has been giving faithful service all these years and he submits the lowest tender.


Harry Raymond Fleming: Does the hon. member know that he was giving faithful service?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In the correspondence there is no evidence to the contrary. I take the record of the Post Office Department rather than what the hon. member says.


Harry Raymond Fleming: The member for Humboldt might be much better informed than the post office.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I know the member for Humboldt is a capable physician, but running a post office is certainly not his business, and if the post office staff in Ottawa and elsewhere say they cannot run the business I think we should find others who can.


Harry Raymond Fleming: That is very far-fetched,
comparing a physician to a man on a rural mail route. The physician in the performance of his duties, I may say to the hon. member, goes from place to place and gets information.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: If there were complaints regarding the way in which this man had carried on his work, those complaints should have been submitted to the department rather than to the member for Humboldt, and if the hon. member himself had complaints he should have laid them before the department. It is not now the time for him to say that there were complaints with regard to the conduct of the carrier. On April 28 the hon. member for Humboldt wrote a letter in which he said:
In connection w i: h the above mentioned rural route, I would like to recommend that the contract for same be given to Mr. Walter J. Fouhse, Spalding, Sask.
My information is that this man is of military age and has been- given the position in spite of the fact that his predecessor had been carrying on the work for several years. I have a similar case from my own constituency, and the Post Office Department acted, I think, wisely in this connection. It was one of the first grievances I had after coming to this house. The defeated government candidate in my constituency apparently felt obliged to reward someone who had hauled out a few voters for him at election time, or had done some other work for him, and the man who had carried the mail for seven years, over some of the worst roads in all sorts of weather,
eleven miles out and eleven miles back, at $2 a trip, lost his job in order that a party favourite, a young man of military age, should be rewarded. The Post Office Department very wisely took into consideration the repre-centations that came from the legion in that area.
The point which the hon. member for Saskatoon City made, and in which I concur, is that people who are being asked to buy war savings certificates and victory bonds are not familiar with the tremendous programme which the Minister of Munitions and Supply is carrying on. Nor are they familiar with the achievements of the navy and the record of the air force. They naturally look at Canada's problems through their own glasses, and they see what work the government is doing in a particular community. If men and women who have been giving faithful service are to be kicked out so as to reward someone who has been a valuable party worker, it destroys confidence in the democratic system. If there are civil servants who are not doing their work or are not capable, then by all means they should be dispensed with. But there are rural mail carriers and1 postmasters who are giving efficient service and they should be retained. Do not dispense with them in order to reward others who have done valuable party work.
I submit that cases such as the one I have mentioned at Spalding where the mail carrier who submitted one of the lowest tenders is compelled to accept a loss on equipment which he has bought, only to see someone else rewarded for political services, are most unfortunate. I would ask the Postmaster General to make a statement now that this unfortunate policy of administering post office affairs on the basis of how a man votes rather than how he does the work be changed immediately.


Harry Raymond Fleming: In this matter there was no political connection whatever, and I think that is well known to the hon. member. He should not bring these things up without properly investigating them. I live in the area in question and know personally the whole situation. If he would go a little further afield, he will see that it is only within a matter of weeks that I recommended one of his political supporters as a mail carrier.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not intend to get into this discussion. The system is wrong and should be corrected. I think hon. members would prefer to be free from this burden of recommending mail carriers. The men do not get enough out of the
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service to pay them for what they are doing. They are not civil servants. They are contractors. I have felt for some time that the system is wrong.
I do not know whether the minister stated the policy of the government with respect to aiding air mail services throughout the country. I come from a part of the country which is not at present served by air mail, which just misses it by a few miles, being on the track of the beam between Montreal and Moncton, which used to be the eastern terminus of Trans-Canada. There has been a substantial agitation in my city for some connection by air service with Trans-Canada, and consequently air mail. I realize some of the difficulties; we have not at present a good airport. But there was started in the maritime provinces a concern known as Maritime Central Airways which was prepared to give subsidiary service connecting with Trans-Canada at Moncton. I have never sought to have Trans-Canada stop at my city. At Saint John the difficulty is a physical one, that of getting runways of sufficient length. But that difficulty does not obtain at Fredericton. Maritime Central Airways are prepared to establish a subsidiary service connecting Fredericton, Saint John and Moncton with Trans-Canada. I think it is apparent to those who have studied the position that without a mail subvention such a project could not pay its way.
I am not asking the minister for a definite pledge with respect to the situation to which I have referred. But would he say in a general w-ay what the policy of the department is with regard to assisting the setting up of these services. There is no doubt that air mail has come to stay. It is a modern development. We feel a certain amount of pride in our community as being the capital of New Brunswick, although we are not very large, and we think we should have some air connection. This is the only possible way. Would the minister just tell us what the policy is?


Mr. MULOCK:: In regard to the extension of air mail facilities to Fredericton, the capital of Newr Brunswick, I have gone into this matter with the officials of the department. I have felt that it is the only fair thing to do. Fredericton is the only provincial capital in Canada which is not served by air mail. The cost would appear to be in the neighbourhood of $14,000 a year.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is not much.


William Pate Mulock: No; there would be considerable revenue. So far as the Post Office 
Department is concerned we are quite willing to put it into effect, and have so advised officials of the transport department.
The next question to be dealt with is whether the airfield at Fredericton can be used. I understand that at present there is only one runway, which runs east and west. The transport department are unwilling to allow planes to land there on the regular schedule until the field is improved. I have taken the matter up with the Acting Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) and I suggest it might be advisable for the leader of the opposition to discuss the matter with him.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I shall
be glad to do so. If there is definite assurance that a mail subvention will be given, I am [DOT] sure the airport will be improved.
There is one aspect of the situation down there of which perhaps the transport department is not aware. Fredericton is situated in the Saint John river valley. The terrain is a wide river, a plain on each side and rising ground 'beyond. The prevailing winds are east and west. Some years ago I remember being amused by the statement of a witness in some litigation I was conducting who swore that the wind blew only two ways at Fredericton, either up river or down. He was not literally correct, but that is nearly true, because of the character of the valley. So that the one runway does not present an insuperable difficulty. If the only difficulty is in connection with the airfield I think it can be overcome. I am obliged to the minister for his assurance.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Has there been any revision of the air mail contract with Trans-Canada Air Lines?


William Pate Mulock: The present rate is 45-74.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It has
been reduced gradually?


William Pate Mulock: There is a slight variation.


Mr. MacINNIS:: There is a matter I wish to bring to the attention of the Postmaster General. It arises out of a complaint from persons who have relatives in the merchant marine, having to do with the refusal of the post office to accept letters for the merchant navy under the new regulations for air letters to the armed forces. In this case the Postmaster General replied to the person concerned pointing out that it was not possible to allow this service for the merchant navy on account of the difficulty of being sure that it would not be used by ordinary civilians. With the exercise of a little care there would be no danger of this service being used by civilians, because all letters to

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persons in the merchant navy are addressed to the general post office, London, England, and the general post office in London forwards them on advice from the admiralty as to where they should be sent. Under these circumstances I see no reason why this service should not be extended to the merchant marine. There is no more dangerous service than this, and these people believe that they should be put on the same basis as persons in the armed forces.


William Pate Mulock: This matter was brought to the attention of the committee last evening by the hon. member for Essex East, who dealt with it in a comprehensive way. We will see what can be done to extend the benefits of this ten-cent letter, which I understand to be the one to which he is referring. The airgraph letter at six cents already is available to the lady to whom the hon. member referred.
There are difficulties in the way. These letters are forwarded not to the British post office in England but to the army base post office, and they are all for the armed forces. As the hon. member knows, the base post office is an army organization, composed of experienced men formerly in the postal service of Canada. They deliver that mail to the army and air force. It will be realized that you cannot begin to siphon civilian mail into the army post office, but the matter is being considered and if it is possible extend privileges to the merchant marine the hon. member may rest assured that we shall do so. We are very sympathetic; we realize the wonderful work these people are doing and the importance of helping to maintain their morale by enabling them to correspond with their relatives and their relatives to correspond with them at the lowest possible cost. I cannot say what can be done; as a matter of fact it is under consideration at the present time.


Mr. GREEN:: I should like to ask the Postmaster General a question in connection with this highly coloured advertising of air mail which has been distributed across Canada. I have had these advertisements sent to me on different occasions by constituents who protest against such waste of money in war time.


William Pate Mulock: I was looking to see if I did not have a statement on that point, because it has been given a great deal of consideration. There seems to be some misunderstanding; some people appear to think that these advertisements are sent out indiscriminately, all across the country. As a matter of fact they are sent to a selected list of about 22,000 people. There have been objections to the Post Office Department doing
any advertising. So far as that is concerned, there have been objections to the government operating the Trans-Canada Air Lines; but if we are going to be loaded down with these deficits in connection with the air line I think it only good business for the Post Office Department to do its best to get revenue from air mail so that instead of losing money we may make money. Several years ago we were losing large sums of money, I believe amounting to $1,800,000 in one year. Recently there has been a wonderful improvement, and we are nearing the stage when it is going to be a very profitable thing for the people of Canada.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If it were not for the war services, and the amounts the government collect from the war departments, would the minister be able to paint such a rosy picture? My experience and my information is that 75 per cent of the passengers . carried on the air line can be charged to war expenditures.


William Pate Mulock: Well, we do not look after the passenger end of it, which is run by Trans-Canada Air Lines, but if their passenger business drops it becomes all the more important that we should have more air mail.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is a good argument.


William Pate Mulock: We cannot get more business unless we let the people of this country know what the government is doing and tell them the benefit they may derive from the use of air mail. We are getting more business all the time, not just from government departments but right across Canada. As the leader of the opposition said, air mail is here to stay; and I should not be surprised if we live to see the day when all first-class mail for long distances is carried by air rather than by rail, at about the present rate for surface transport. We are running now about 300,000 air mail letters a day on Trans-Canada Air Lines, and I do not think it would be good policy not to advertise. The appropriation is small in comparison to the volume of business.


Howard Charles Green: How much is it?


William Pate Mulock: Only $15,000, and the total appropriation for advertising this year is only $30,000 for the whole department, on a business which will run between $55,000,000 and $60,000,000. Does any private enterprise trying to merchandise anything operate on such a relatively small advertising appropriation? We are getting results. We have a 50 per cent increase in air mail over last year.


Howard Charles Green: You did not get that because of your advertising.
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William Pate Mulock: That is all very well. I can quite understand that there are certain people who may not want to see the volume of air mail increase.


Howard Charles Green: There is no question of that, nor did I suggest anything of the kind.


William Pate Mulock: Well, I am suggesting it. But if this is going to be run as a business we must be allowed to advertise, to let the people of the country know what we are doing. I believe it is one of the greatest things that ever happened, that this service should be owned and controlled by the government for the people of Canada. I believe we have to protect it, to see that it is not encroached upon, that the outlets from this country are protected for the benefit of the Canadian people.


Howard Charles Green: The minister has based his whole defence of this expenditure on the premise that the advertising brings in the air mail business, but I suggest that this premise is entirely wrong. I should like him to tell the committee what proof he has that the advertising has helped in the slightest degree. He has stated that this highly coloured and expensive advertising is sent out to only 22,000 people-


William Pate Mulock: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I did not say it was highly coloured and expensive; the hon. member said that. These notices are highly coloured, but they are not expensive.


Howard Charles Green: These notices are sent to only 22,000 people in Canada, presumably to business firms. Surely those business firms know all about air mail anyway. There is nothing in the circulars I have seen that gives any information about air mail that is not generally available. Really they give no information at all, just a sort of pep talk, with the words "Use Air Mail" or something like that, with a picture of an angel, wings and so on. I have had these protests from business people. Men have come to me and said, "Here we are being taxed almost out of business by this government, yet it is able to spend money in war time on advertising of this kind." Surely the minister should be open to suggestions as to ways in which he might cut down expenditures, and I suggest that this is one way. So far as anybody attacking air mail is concerned,
I should be the last member of the house to do that, because I was one of the first to advocate the establishment of Trans-Canada Air Lines and the use of air mail, and I have followed that up year after year. But I suggest that here 'S one place where a saving could be made.


William Pate Mulock: Just on that point, it is a question as to what form advertising should take. This matter wTas considered by the department, and I may say that we intend to follow a somewhat different .policy. We are going to use certain of the papers across this country to get to the general public. We have got a large part of the business firms to the point where they are now using it. The general import of the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver South was that we should not continue advertising. Let us consider some of the utilities companies, the Bell Telephone company in particular. People must use the telephone, but certainly the Bell Telephone company advertises. The same applies to the telegraph companies. The Canadian National Telegraph and Canadian Pacific Telegraph both advertise.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is a competitive element between the two.


William Pate Mulock: Yes. I would not say there is a competitive element between air mail and other forms of communication-but there might be, and officials of the department think there is. However, so far as these cards are concerned, they are being used up and, now that we have got the business firms we are going into the other forms of advertising.


Howard Charles Green: If complaints are being made, they are creating bad feeling.


William Pate Mulock: I might tell my hon. friend that if people do not pay attention to advertising you will never have any complaints. There is no use sending out plain, stereotyped advertising. I leave that to the judgment of hon. members. An hon. member receives that kind of advertising in the mail, and what does he do with it? If it is just an ordinary letter advertising something he takes one look at it, tears it up and throws it into the waste basket. If we do not have some complaint, then we must decide that the people are not noticing our advertising, and that it is not coming to their attention.
Let me tell my hon. friend I should be glad to show him large numbers of letters of a very different type where .people in the first instance complained, but after the situation was explained to them said that we are doing the right thing. Not only that, but we have received a great many more letters of approval than of protest. There have been a comparatively small number in opposition ;o the procedure.

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Robert Fair: At eleven o'clock last night the question of rural mail routes was being discussed, and I noticed that one city resident who claimed to be a farmer protested against the money being spent. I wish to take the opposite view, as one who lives on a farm and truly represents the farmer's point of view. I believe we have not nearly enough of these mail routes, and I would like to see many more put into operation at the opportune time. I feel that the farmers are being treated badly enough at the present time, and have been for a number of years past. In fact they have been producing at prices far below the cost of production. There is no reason why a man in the city should have mail delivery right to his door, and even placed inside his house, when a farmer has to travel in some cases ten or twelve miles to get his mail only twice a week, and sometimes not that often. I protest vigorously against any representations of the kind made last night. It is up to those of us who represent farmers in this house to raise our voices in protest against any such observations as those made by the hon. member for Moose Jaw last night.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I wish to
join with the hon. member (Mr. Fair) against any attempt at cutting down or doing away with rural mail service. From the very beginning of my political career I have advocated the extension of those services, where-ever possible. In the first election in which I ever ran the only pledge I made to my people was'that so far as I was able I would work to see a rural mail box at the gate of every farm in Canada. I am not complaining about the point of view of the hon. member who spoke last night, although I was surprised to see it in the press this morning. I believe, however, I would have the united support of 90 per cent of the members of the house, especially those who represent rural communities, if I were to say that the rural mail service is the one government service that the rural population of Canada value more than any other. I disagree entirely with any curtailment of that service, and I was glad to note that the minister holds a similar view. My only regret is that in this time of war it is not possible to extend those services further. I suggest that the department return to a policy of extension at the earliest possible day.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
2J/9. To provide for the payment of compassionate allowances to employees injured while in the performance of their duties, or to other persons injured while performing duties in any
way connected with the postal service, or in protecting His Majesty's mails, or to the dependents of such employees or other persons who may be killed while so engaged; payments to be made only on the specific authority of the governor in council, $5,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is there not some
other arrangement made for taking care of employees' families and dependents, outside of this $5,000?


William Pate Mulock: The hon. member realizes of course that in general cases the superannuation applies. This is an item carried each year to provide for unforeseen circumstances.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
71. Departmental administration, $132,340.
Mr. NEILL:: I do not think that at this unhallowed stage of the session either the committee or the country would gratefully receive any prolonged debate on the estimates. I could cheerfully join with anyone who wished to blame the government for putting us in the position of sitting here these long days, from early morning until late at night- and with the possibility of sitting even later still-for a period longer than we have ever done before, so far as my memory goes. It is unreasonable and improper to expect us to give service to the country and to do our duty properly if we have to sit here in this chamber so long every day, take care of our correspondence and attend to matters in the various departments upon which we have to call. Nevertheless in the present instance the government has what might be called a justification in the fact of the conditions produced by the war.
We have before us the estimates for the Department of Fisheries. I do not think any good purpose could be served by prolonged consideration of these items. I could bring up and debate at considerable length local grievances in British Columbia, and particularly in the constituency I represent, with regard to fisheries matters. I could call attention particularly to the failure of the department to put a fish ladder on the Puntledge river. They will not replace the ladder that was washed out. The reasons given by some of the officials are so untenable as to be absolutely ridiculous. Here again however they have the strong argument just now that with war conditions as they are, and the matter having been delayed for so long it will not hurt us much to delay it another year, because the run has been done away with and we will have to begin again at the beginning.
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I have compared these estimates with those of other years, and in doing so have gone back two or more years. In general, compared with earlier estimates they appear reasonable-in fact I might say favourable. In some of the items connected with the spending of moneys on fisheries guardians to protect the fish, the amounts have been increased in some instances as much as $5,000. Then, in respect of items of lesser importance, particularly those of a clerical nature, there have been reductions of as much as $2,000 or $3,000. In other words they are just about the same as ;hey have been in years gone by. They are certainly not worse, and they are, in some instances, better.


Thomas Langton Church: There is no quorum, Mr. Chairman.


The CHAIRMAN:: A point of order has been raised.


Alan Webster Neill: I suggest that we might let these items go through without very much debate.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Might we call it one o'clock?
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, I have
a question to ask of the minister, not as a member representing a fishing territory, for I am not that; but when I was in the Northwest Territories last summer the fish producers there asked me to ask this question, and as the Northwest Territories have no representative in the house, perhaps for a moment I might represent them.
The fisheries people in the Northwest Territories told me that Great Bear lake, lake Athabaska and many other lakes roundabout produce an excellent quality of fish, and in good quantities. They asked why their fish are discriminated against in the matter of express rates as compared with the fish of the Pacific ocean. They tell me that the distance from Prince Rupert to Edmonton is 955 miles, and from Waterways, the shipping point in the Northwest Territories, to Edmonton the distance is 305 miles, or a distance in favour of Waterways of 650 miles. The fish in each case go on to Chicago or points east. The express rate per hundred pounds on a carload lot of fish from Prince Rupert via Edmonton to Chicago is $3.95, and from Waterways via Edmonton to Chicago, 84.70, in spite of the fact that the distance from Prince Rupert is 650 miles

longer. The much shorter distance pays an express rate that is 75 cents per 100 pounds higher. They requested me to ask the minister whether relief could not be given to them by making their express rate at least the same as the rate from Prince Rupert.


Mr. MICHAUD:: That seems to be a
matter of transportation rates, which are fixed by the board of transport commissioners. The reason for the differential would seem to be water competition; that is, the difference between the rate by water from Prince Rupert to Seattle or some other port in the United States and the rail rate from Waterways. I suspect that the carriers by water try to make the rate attractive enough to take the business away from the railway competitors. That is a matter that would not come under the jurisdiction of the department, but I thank the hon. member for calling attention to this differential and we shall take it up with the proper authorities, who in this case are the board of transport commissioners.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There is one more question I have to ask in reference to the Northwest Territories. There are three great lakes in that region: Great Bear lake, where the fish are wonderful; lake Athabaska, where the fish are said to be 100 per cent, and Great Slave lake. I was informed that spawn had been put into Great Slave lake and that the fish there were not as good as they should be, that they got worms under the skin through the spawn that had been put into the lake. I said that I would bring this matter to the minister's attention.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The matter has been
brought to our attention, not a specific complaint against the fish coming out of these lakes-


John Ritchie MacNicol: There was just one lake, Great Slave lake, where the fish were not of as good quality.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, but fish coming out of that territory are exported largely to the United States market, and several cases of infestation by worms were brought to our attention by the health department at Washington. We took the matter up with the provinces interested. Our attention was drawn specifically to the infestation of fish coming out of waters within the territories.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I referred to Great Slave lake alone in that regard.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The matter has been taken up with the organized jurisdictions in the west. Conferences have been held with a view to eliminating this infestation of which

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United States consumers complain, and I think we are on the way to removing it. As to fish coming out of the Great Slave lake in the Northwest Territories, we shall take that up immediately with the authorities with a view to having the trouble corrected. We have already taken the matter up with the provinces.


Mr. SENN:: There is a large industry on the great lakes engaged in catching and shipping fresh water fish. I do not like to make any comparison between fresh water and salt water fish, but some kinds of fresh water fish are a great delicacy. Unfortunately there seems to be little market in Ontario, particularly, for these fresh water fish, the great bulk of which are shipped to the United States. Has any educational or advertising programme been carried on by the federal department to create a market for these fish in our own country?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is difficult to control that, because the products of the fisheries, like the products of other industries, are attracted to the most profitable markets, and the fishermen of Ontario and of other fresh water districts find no difficulty whatever in selling their product on the United States market, where there is a great demand for them. That market has the advantages of shortness of haul, proximity to the source of supply; and fish of course has to be marketed as quickly as possible. The producers of fish from the great lakes already have a good market, and they find it more profitable to sell to the United States buyer who offers a better price because there is a much larger market in that country. Surely we are not going to penalize the poor fishermen of Ontario by compelling them to compete in a restricted market, which the Canadian market is, our population being much smaller in numbers. The product of the fisheries of the great lakes finds a better and more ready market in the centre of attraction, which is the middle west market in the United States.


Mark Cecil Senn: I was not going to suggest to the minister that he should penalize the Canadian fisherman by confining his product to Canadian markets, but I would point out that fish going to the United States from Canada has to pass over a considerable tariff wall. I was only suggesting that something be done to educate the people in our large centres of population who are consuming things of this kind as to the value and the quality of the fish which are caught in these great lakes. There is quite a large fishing industry in my own riding, and the fishermen complain that they are unable to sell their
fish in the Canadian market in the volume which they think they could sell it if some educational programme were carried on to acquaint the people in the urban centres as to the value and quality of the fish. I know that the provincial government has something to do with the fishing industry in Ontario, but I suggest that the minister look into methods of advertising on behalf of the local fishermen. After all, like other primary producers, they are hardly in a position to carry on that education themselves, because for the most part their incomes are not large.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Under another item provision is made for expenditure for educational purposes. Up to this year we have had women demonstrating in large centres of population the advantages of fish consumption. Although fisheries in the central provinces are under provincial jurisdiction we make no discrimination on that ground, and I believe that that is where our demonstrators spend most of their time. I know that in Ontario, in the Niagara peninsula and in the Windsor peninsula, where there are large bodies of the consuming public, our demonstrators have spent a good part of their time.


Mark Cecil Senn: May I ask if they use fresh
water fish as well as the others?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: They do not advertise
any special kind of fish. They advocate the use of fish generally, and are very careful not to favour any particular kind. The general policy has been to educate people to a greater consumption of fish. If there are any centres of population to which my hon. friend would like the department's demonstrators to go, we shall be pleased to send them as soon as we have them available.


Mark Cecil Senn: I thank the minister for that.


Mr. HAZEN:: I would call the attention
of the Minister of Fisheries, who I believe is also acting Minister of Public Works, to the condition of the wharf at Chance Harbour, in the county of Saint John, province of New Brunswick. Chance Harbour is a fishing village which fronts on the bay of Fundy, and if I may say so, a very pleasant village. I suggest that when the minister has opportunity he should visit it and look the place over for himself. This wharf, which also serves as a breakwater and serves a very useful purpose in the community, is in a very bad state of repair.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Very
dilapidated.


Douglas King Hazen: I do not know what is the
policy of the minister's department and of
Supply-Fisheries

the Department of Public Works, but it seems to me that the repairs should be made at once before the wharf is allowed to go further into disrepair. It would mean a great saving of expense if the repairs were made now. They are necessary, and I ask the minister if he will look into the situation.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I can assure the hon.
member that I shall do so at the first opportunity this summer.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is the minister's department doing anything as regards the various oils, from the point of view of vitamins?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No; the oil administrator is under the Department of Finance.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What I mean is, regarding vitamins A and B, or what are extracted from cod liver and halibut liver.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, that comes under the fisheries research board, who at the present time are conducting a survey at all our stations on the Pacific and the Atlantic as to the relative values of the oils that can be derived from different varieties of the fish in our waters. All our scientific stations are carrying on that work just now.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not want the minister or the government to understand that because, at this late stage of the session, we do not discuss these estimates with detail or particularity, that is to be considered as setting a precedent. I deplore more than I can say the policy of the government in holding non-war estimates to the eleventh hour of a tremendously long session. I protest against it. I invite the government at the next session of parliament not only to table the estimates as soon as it is possible to do so but to invite consideration of them from time to time in the earlier stages of the session. I know we are all absorbed in war and the war activities and the war expenditures, which are tremendous and which are entitled to our consideration. But the ordinary estimates are vital to the people of the country and to the representatives of the people, and that ample opportunity should be offered for their consideration. I serve warning now that so far as we are concerned we shall demand that the methods which have obtained during this and the past two sessions shall be changed and that these estimates shall be brought down in due course.
I will take this occasion to point out to the house and to the country that instead of ordinary expenditures having been cut down they have actually largely increased. I made

some observations on this point in the presence of the Minister of Finance a few weeks ago. I pointed to the misapprehension which had prevailed as a result of a press release given when the estimates were tabled, and which was later, I am glad to say, corrected by the press, as to the alleged decrease in non-war estimates. We have heard to-day of supplementary estimates totalling nearly $29,000,000, as will be seen from the summary on page 7, of which nearly $4,000,000 are chargeable to ordinary account, $250,000 chargeable to capital account, and about $24,000,000 chargeable to special account. Well, it all comes out of one pot, the taxpayers of this country. I protest against the government not putting the pruning knife to ordinary expenditures in time of war. We are being taxed to the limit. There must be more cutting. I know the answer will be immediately that the controllable expenditure is relatively small. There is a measure of truth in that, but it is the controllable expenditure to which I desire to direct attention. I now serve notice on the government that we shall maintain our position with respect to the time of considering these estimates and with respect to the quantum of the estimates, and we shall continue to press for reductions.
Here we have $23,000,000 for prairie farm wheat reduction, and that is the government's policy. Of that $23,000,000 special expendi-' ture nearly $1,000,000 is in administration. Just reckon up hastily what the percentage is-nearly 5 per cent. I suggest that $1,000,000 ought to be cut by the Minister of Agriculture. I am sorry he is not here so that I can call his attention to it. That is the sort of thing that gets the taxpayer down, the sort of thing that members of this house ought to examine into and comment upon, the sort of thing - on which members supporting the government ought to back me up in the attempt I am making, and I invite them to do so. They represent the taxpayers as much as I do. They are as much the guardians of the taxpayers as I am; yet how few do I ever hear suggesting that the whole situation should be reviewed.
I know someone will immediately turn around and say: You want money spent here, there and everywhere. I have been very careful about what I have asked for, and we all ought to be. We in the maritime provinces have a grievance about the amounts of money that are devoted by this government to agriculture in the west as compared with what is expended on agriculture in the east, particularly in the maritimes. I have taken, and I will continue to take, as national a view as I

Supply-Fisheries
can of the problems of agriculture. Aid has been given to western agriculture freely and with the utmost good-will by every part of Canada, on this theory, that providence has rendered their position in days gone by extremely difficult and that a country which in a given year was capable of producing and did produce one billion dollars' worth of new wealth for Canada was a country that was worth saving and helping. Eastern Canada has approached the consideration of grants to the west on that basis, but I suggest that the time has come when the whole policy should be reviewed.
The other night the member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) brought up the question with regard to the reclamation of marsh lands lying between New Brunswick and Nova Scotia as alongside, not in contrast with, but alongside the expenditures being made in connection with conservation measures in the western provinces under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act. The position was explained by the Minister of Agriculture, who said he was in accord with the suggestions that had been made in that regard and had endeavoured to get a million dollars to help to rebuild the dykes on the bay of Fundy; but he said that the matter had been turned down by the treasury board, which means in substance the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance takes the view, as I understand, that the problem in that part of the maritime provinces is a provincial problem. It is the work of reclamation of those large fertile areas which now, owing to the fact that agriculture in that part of the country has gone down to such an extent that the farmers cannot keep up the dykes through private assessments on land owners, are being inundated by the tides and are no longer productive. I can remember, when I was a boy going to school in that area, hundreds of head of beef cattle were shipped out of that part of the country every year, fattened on the foods grown there. That is a thing of the past.
The question of aids to agriculture should be reviewed by the government in the coming year, and some consideration at least should be given to the plight of the eastern farmers. I know it is better than it was. Prices are better, but we are still suffering from price control there-not from the principle of price control, but from the fact that price control was put into effect at a time when the prices of agricultural products were on an uneven level, and the system was so inflexible that that level has never been
righted. I do protest against the method- not the principle involved, or the aim or the objective.
Next year we shall expect the minister's estimates to be brought down and discussed early so that we may give adequate attention to them. And that goes for every department of government. They should not be held back until the last week of the session. I protest against it; it is not the proper way to conduct the business of the country. After all, what is the first function of parliament? The first function of the House of Commons is the granting of supply to his majesty. True, we are at war, and that overrides everything else; but after that the first function is not political discussion but the granting of supply to his majesty. I protest therefore against the policy and attitude of the government in making it impossible to give adequate consideration to the ordinary estimates of the country.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The estimates were tabled quite early in the session, and this is the first opportunity given me to have them discussed by the house.


Richard Burpee Hanson: By whom? By the government.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: So far there has been little time to discuss these estimates. With regard to the suggestion for retrenchment, I agree with the leader of the opposition, and this has been put into practice by the department. It was done before he suggested it. For example, there has been a gradual reduction. The estimates last year amounted to $2,229,480; this year they amount to $1,892,620. Notwithstanding that, this year we have an amount of $67,045 for the cost-of-living bonus to employees which we did not have last year.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You had $400,000 special last year.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There is a net reduction this year of about 20 per cent compared with the expenditures of last year. Some departments may and others may not be able to reduce considerably without basically changing their organization. However, I believe there is need for retrenchment, and this has been practised as far as the officials of the department are concerned.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What difference will the new wartime prices and trade board order A-223, replacing A-94, make to the lobster fishermen? What will the controlled price be? $16.50 per case?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The only material difference is to make it applicable to smaller cans,
Supply-Fisheries

to the quarter-pound can as well as half-pound and one-pound cans. But the basic price remains the same as under the former order.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: Is there a price ceiling on canned fish? If so, when did it go into effect? I have a number of complaints from householders that there appears to be no ceiling on the price of canned fish.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I understand there is a ceiling on the wholesale price of canned fish, established by the wartime prices and trade board. There is for lobsters at least, because the order has been made recently, as pointed out by the hon. member for Peterborough West.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think there is one for sardines also.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Another complaint called to my attention is that the standardization of cans by the board has resulted in leaving that industry largely in the hands of a few manufacturers of cans, of which I understand the firm with which the fish administrator is associated is one of the largest in the country.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The size of the container, if it is a metal container, is controlled by the metals controller. In its application to fish it is made to conform with the requirements of the consumer as much as possible, consistent with the quantity of tinplate available for that trade. Nobody is much concerned about the size of the cans, provided that the trade can take care of its requirements with the amount of tinplate allotted to that trade. Several grades have been eliminated with a view to conserving tinplate and tin. The larger quantity of fish that is put into tins is canned on the west coast; a comparatively small percentage of the tinned fish is produced in the east. The control applies to all. They make their own provision to get their tinplate, and once they have made provision within their industry I think they are perfectly free to use it and make it serve the best purpose they can.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Has the dominion government any investment in the Gorton Pew plant at Caraquet, New Brunswick?	.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No. A few years ago the dominion government gave to the province of New' Brunswick an amount of money to help the needy fishermen. The portion of that money that should have gone to the fishermen of Gloucester county or Caraquet district was contributed by the province toward the cost of putting up that plant-


Richard Burpee Hanson: They gave it to a United States corporation, not the fishermen.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is a New Brunswick
corporation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But it is owned in the states.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: -on the invitation of the fishermen, .1 understand. The fishermen I believe are pleased to have that plant there, because the price to the primary fishermen, no doubt owing to the fact that there is a plant and cold storage to take care of the product, is much higher than it would be otherwise.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbuiy):: I suppose the war had nothing to do with that.


Angus MacInnis: On the point raised by the hon. member for York South, has the standard can or tin for lobster been changed from what was in use before the war or before the metals control board and other control boards were created?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, except that the quarter pound has been eliminated for this year. Whatever was on hand from last year they were permitted to use.


Angus MacInnis: Is there any substance to the complaints that the standard size can has been changed and that the only company having the machinery to produce the can that has been ordered is this company in New Brunswick of which the gentleman who is inspector is a member? If the complaint cannot be substantiated, I have nothing further to say.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think that complaint is not well founded. The ruling pertaining to tinplate requires less tin to be put on the plate. It does not materially change the size.


Angus MacInnis: The minister says it does not materially change the size. But that is important, because a machine makes a certain size can and every can is made in the same way. If you change the size in the slightest you have to change the machine or get a new one; you cannot adjust these machines, so far as I have been able to find out, to reduce the size of the tin by a quarter of an inch or so. It is just like tool-making.


Richard Burpee Hanson: New dies are required.


Angus MacInnis: Yes. When the minister says it does not materially change it, that means there is some change; and if there is some change, that justifies the complaint, unless the minister has some further explanation.

Supply-Fisheries


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The actual size of the can as regards fish has not been changed. The quarter size has been eliminated. The fact that less tin is used on the plate does not affect the size of the tin; it is the manufacture of the plate that controls that. It is not the fault of the people who cut out the plate and put it together. This is steel plate, covered with a white substance, and it is that substance that is being controlled, because it is the precious element entering into the manufacture of tinplate.
Mr. MaeINNIS: The steel plate comes from the manufacturer already tinned?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, with tin on it.
Mr. MaeINNIS: And generally speaking the tinplate is put in one end of the machine and the cans come out the other end?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.
Mr. MaeINNIS: If any material change is made in the size of the tin you cannot use the machines that were formerly used; and if some person has a monopoly on those machines, and that person is connected with a company which is in an advantageous position, that is not good; it creates suspicion and discontent.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I want to correct any false impression that may go abroad. I do not think it is fair to say that anyone is in a position to take advantage of a particular situation, especially in the fishing industry. The size of the can has not been changed, either on the Atlantic or on the Pacific coast. Certain sizes have been eliminated; that is, they may not be made in those sizes, but the tins that may be made are the same size as before.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How about the sockeye salmon from British Columbia? Will Canadians be allowed to have any this year, or will it all be shipped to Britain?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, I am afraid that this year it will not be possible to allow Canadian consumers any canned salmon of any variety, because the requirements for food products on the other side are such that we feel obligated to send over whatever can be sent in this compact form. For that reason, at the request of the British government and the British food mission, we are asking Canadian manufacturers to put up as much as possible of their product this year in cans for use overseas by our armies, by our allies and also by the civilian population of Britain.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will that also apply to British Columbia sardines in the large cans?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Well, they go with the herring, and herring and sardines are both intended for British consumption.


Mr. TUSTIN:: I should like to know if the fish canneries have been given 100 per cent of the cans they will require this year, or if the supply has been reduced.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It depends on the requirements and how good the fishing may be. It all depends on the quantity of fish the packers have to place in the cans. If the fishing season is exceptionally good, the requirement for cans will be large; but based on our estimates, the steel controller has made an allotment of plate which we feel will meet the requirements for the present year. Of course if we have an over-abundance of fish it may be that we shall not have 100 per cent of the requirements.


George James Tustin: Then it will depend entirely upon the amount of fish procured by the fishermen this year? If there are large catches of fish the canneries will be given all the cans they require?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, that is not what I said. A certain allotment has been made, based on the average and the expected production for the year. If the production of raw material exceeds that estimate, they will have to go without the tinplate because the allotment already has been made.


George James Tustin: Is the allotment equal to that of last year?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not altogether; it is rather lower than last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7h Development of the deep sea fisheries and the demand for fish, $62,760.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Mr. GILLIS:: I should like to make a few remarks on this item, though I am sorry to disappoint my hon. friends to the right. They are quite satisfied to have the house adjourn when they finish talking.
I am not particularly interested in discussing the estimates in detail. I am particularly interested in making this observation, that the fishing industry in Canada is pretty well on a par with every other industry; it is very much like the Indian's gun, it needs a new lock, stock and barrel. I do not visualize any great changes being made, however, unless there is some radical thinking on the part of those responsible for organizing this industry. So far as the 40,000 fishermen of the maritimes are concerned, they have always been the forgotten men in regard to incomes, and there is only one solution to their problems,

Supply-Fisheries

a solution in which they themselves will have to play a large part. To-day the fishermen are the victims of the large processing plants, the credit organizations, the trawling companies, and so forth. There is no solution to that set-up so far as the problems of the fishermen are concerned. The government have done, are doing and I believe are going to continue to do some work along cooperative lines among the fishermen, judging by the estimates, and in my opinion that is where the solution of the problem lies. I think the Department of Fisheries would be well advised to extend that work, and continue to extend it, even while we are fighting the war. I believe the job will have to be done by the federal government in cooperation with the provincial governments. They will have to extend their activities in the field of cooperative marketing and the establishment of credit unions among the fishermen. I know that where these organizations have been established they are working successfully, taking the fishermen out of the hands of the private companies.
As a good illustration let us look at Locke-port, in connection with which I have had some correspondence with the minister. After suffering for many years, the fishermen of that district decided some three years ago to do something for themselves, and established their own processing plant. They endeavoured to obtain cold storage facilities as well, but the war broke out and the grant made by the federal government to the provinces for that purpose was discontinued, though I think it was false economy. In any case, to-day the Lockeport fishermen are in this position, that they have not been able to fish for some time because they have no bait. They cannot get bait because the two privately owned companies in that district refuse to sell them bait unless the fishermen will sell their fish to the processing plants of these companies, on their terms. In the light of the war situation, and the necessity for everyone working who can work, that is nothing more or less than sabotage. I wrote the minister a week or so ago and enclosed a long petition. I shall not read it, because the minister has a copy of it. That petition was sent in by the Lockeport fishermen with respect to the question of bait. These two privately owned companies have been retarding the industry. The minister said he would investigate and let me have the information later. I have not had any word from him.
There is no doubt that the final solution of the fishermen's problem will be in their
[Mr. Gillis.l
working out their own problems to a large extent, with assistance from both federal and provincial governments. I have cited this Lockeport situation to illustrate how much interested some of the large companies are in producing fish, or anything else, when it does not draw water to their own mill. There is evidence in this instance that they withheld bait from the fishermen at Lockeport, so that they could buy the fish on their own terms. All they were concerned about was making money. I hope the minister will go into the situation, and if he cannot make Swim Brothers and the Lockeport Fish company supply bait to those people I hope he will endeavour to do something by way of providing cold storage facilities for fishermen who have their own processing plants and are endeavouring to make them work.
There are many problems confronting the deep sea fishermen with which the average man is not familiar. Probably the minister understands the situation but I do not say that I do. But I live close to many of these fishermen, and speak to them from time' to time. I have learned that this summer along the Cape Breton coast there have been great numbers of dogfish. These fish practically eliminate the possibility of any earnings from the catch of codfish and, to some extent, herring. Fishermen's nets were being destroyed. The dogfish is not marketable, and there is no use in catching it. It remains in the water and destroys the fishing possibilities in that area. If the department were interested in a condition of that kind one would expect it to place a bounty on the catching of those fish. They should be taken out of the water and used as fertilizer.
Then there are certain parts of the fishermen's work which produce no returns. I have in mind particularly the regulations with respect to the sizes of lobsters. Thousands are caught but must be thrown back because they are too small.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They
should be.


Clarence Gillis: They are. The fisherman
goes through the work of taking the lobster from the trap and throwing it back into the water. If we wish to perpetuate the industry the fishermen should be compensated to some extent.
I visualize no solution of any problem confronting our people in Canada unless they are interested and will to a large extent assist in the solution of their own problems. I see fishermen's problems solved in the future on a cooperative basis and by taking them out of the hands of the loan companies which

Supply-Fisheries
lend small sums of money against their catch, thereby placing the fishermen in debt, and obliging them to deal with one firm. The fisherman thus places himself in a position where he may be strangled when he wants bait, as has been done in the case I have mentioned. Then, the fishermen are in the hands of the trawling companies and the private fish buyers. Prices are fixed at certain rates and the fisherman is up against it economically at all times. I suggest the government must realize that there are 40,000 persons engaged in the fishing industry in the maritimes and other sections of Canada. They are entitled to some protection. They should be organized along educational lines so that the fishermen themselves would be a potent instrument in the solution of their own problems. The debating of estimates, a little for this, a little for that, a little for something else, is not going to solve the problem.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
77. Oyster culture, $25,580.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: What is being done with regard to the culture of oysters in Prince Edward Island? In some of the cities in Ontario we can get only British Columbia oysters. They are too dark, and we do not like them.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The difficulty is that the oysters from Prince Edward Island and from the east generally are so good that they have become scarce. There is not enough production to meet the demand. Just prior to the war the annual consumption of oysters in Canada was about 75,000 barrels. The annual production varied between 23,000 and 26,000 barrels, the remainder being imported from the United States, where oysters are produced in much greater quantities.
With regard to increasing the number of our oyster fields, I would point out that a few years ago the department approached this matter from a scientific standpoint. Fortunately some enterprising students in the university of Toronto were induced to give their attention to this matter of oyster culture, and as a result we later established a research station at Malpeque bay. Since then we have extended our policy of inducing adjoining owners to cultivate oysters. I believe we have now developed what is going to be a very profitable oyster culture industry in Prince Edward Island. It is being extended into New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. I doubt whether it would be possible to produce within a few years as many oysters as we would like, and as the market would demand;
but the quantity is rapidly increasing. We are producing a very high quality which is in great demand.
The quantity of British Columbia oysters is somewhat limited. Until the imposition of the embargo on United States oysters we received very few oysters from British Columbia in the east. However the demand is now so great that the British Columbia oyster growers have found it .profitable to ship their oysters to Toronto and Montreal markets, because the eastern oyster beds cannot meet the supply.


Thomas Langton Church: Never were there so many who knew so little about so much fishing, as we have seen all this session. That was made evident also yesterday in a certain convention in Toronto.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
84. To provide for the extension of educational work in cooperative producing and selling among fishermen, $50,000.
Angus MacInnis: Would the minister give the committee a break-down of the expenditure last year? In what part of the dominion was the educational work carried on, and in what form?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Last year as in the previous year the money was apportioned between the east and the west on the same basis. The university of British Columbia received a portion, and the portion going to the maritime provinces was allocated to the adult educational movement of the university of St. Francis Xavier. Last year the amount was reduced by 50 per cent from the previous year. The reduction in the allotment was made in the same proportion, and they were all satisfied. This year the amount is doubled, and the increase will be in the same proportions.


Mr. POIRIER (Translation):: freeing these people. That is why the Social Economic Service of St. Anne de la Pocatiere has devoted itself during the last few years, in cooperation with the fishermen, to organizing cooperatives, fishermen's unions, in order to make these people financially independent. It is due to the present Minister of Fisheries that they have had the funds to carry on with the organization of such unions. I congratulate him for restoring to $50,000 this item which had been reduced last year to $25,000. I trust he will grant the Social Economic Service of St. Anne the same grant he allowed a few years back, that is, $8,000. The service absolutely needs $8,000 to pursue the organization work already begun. If I may be permitted to do so, I would like to submit certain figures showing how this money was spent in 1940-41, in order to justify the request made for an equal amount this year. In 1941, the Social Economic Service of
St. Anne paid out for:
Library and equipment	 $ 400
Distribution of literature	 500
Propagandist's salary	 2,400
Travelling expenses tor above		1,400
Asst, secretary's salary	 800
Asst, propagandist's salary	 600
Librarian's salary	 120
Course in cooperation given to 70 school teachers at the end of
August	 800
Cooperation congress, held in Gaspe
in October	 200
Salaries and expenses of 5 pupils engaged in propaganda work during the holidays	 500
Travelling expenses incurred by
director of service	  80
Courses in cooperation given to
fishermen	 200
Total	 $8,000
I would request the minister to restore to $8,000 this year the St. Anne Social Service's grant reduced last year by $3,000.. The use made of this money in 1941 and the preceding years completely justifies the minister in restoring this grant to $8,000. The cooperative organization work undertaken had the best possible results for our fishermen. There are, I believe, thirteen active fishermen's unions which have purchased fish for the last few years. The number of these unions is steadily increasing as well as the number of cooperating fishermen. Thanks to the competition between the unions and the companies which formerly purchased all the cod, prices have risen and other advantages have accrued to the fisher folk of Gaspe. More-

over the social service has organized its cooperative system on a sound basis, by convincing the fishermen of the value of cooperation before establishing cooperative unions.
I wish to pay tribute here to their propagandist, Mr. Alexandre Boudreau, who is an expert in his field and speaks both languages extremely well. He is a graduate of Antigonish and a disciple of that university's Doctor Cody. The latter's methods are now world-renowned as the best in cooperative organization. Mr. Boudreau has visited every parish in the Gaspe district, organizing study circles as a first step towards cooperative unions. That is why cooperation has been established on a firm basis in the Gaspe region, why we hope to achieve the best results within a few years.
And so, while giving credit to the Minister of Fisheries for the excellent work he has made possible throughout the Gaspe district in the past, may I insist again that he restore to $8,000 the grant paid to the Social Economic Service of St. Anne, in order that Mr. Alexandre Boudreau, our fisheries expert, and the service itself may continue the good work they undertook a few years back under the direction and control of the Department of Fisheries at Ottawa.
I trust the minister will agree that $8,000 is not too much to grant to the province of Quebec out of a total of $50,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
454. Departmental administration - further amount required, $9,727.
John Ritchie MacNicol: According to the details
on page 9, the sum of $6,503 is required for temporary assistance, $224 for cost of living bonus, $1,500 for travelling expenses, and $1,500 for sundries. Would the minister explain this item?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: This amount of $9,727
is required to cover the additional administrative expenses in connection with the purchase of fish for Britain. We have to purchase from twenty to twenty-five million dollars' worth of fish for Britain, and additional help was required which was not provided for in the main estimates. In order to take care of this and remain in good standing with the treasury board we have had to resort to this expedient of putting the item in the supplementaries.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works
455. To provide for Canadian share of expenses of the international Pacific salmon fisheries commission for engineering and biological surveys upon which to base recommendation for overcoming soekeye salmon obstructions at Hell's Gate canyon or other points on the Fraser river watershed; also for temporary expedients, pending permanent remedial action, to overcome such obstructions, $22,574.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the soekeye
salmon obstruction on the Fraser river?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am told that a rock
protrudes into the channel and changes the direction of the water. Apparently this rock must be removed. The government of the United States is contributing half the cost of these surveys.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Half of this amount?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, a similar amount.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Then the total cost will
be S45,000? This obstruction is at the falls in the Fraser river?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: At Hell's Gate.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Chief architect's branch.
261. Ottawa-maintenance and operation of dominion public buildings and grounds, including rents, repairs, furniture, heating, etc., $2,778,480.
Douglas King Hazen: Why are not the paths back of the House of Commons, which go down to the river, opened up? Why are they closed and marked "dangerous"? There are pleasant walks down there and a lot of money is being expended on them. Why are they not used?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I understand that a couple of years ago a considerable part of the ground along these walks fell away. It has not been found possible to make repairs, and there would be danger if persons were allowed to frequent these lonely places.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Repairs were being made last winter, were they not? I myself saw men working near the little building on the northwest corner.


Douglas King Hazen: There seemed to be some work going on this spring. I noticed they were dumping earth and men were working there.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Some temporary work was done to prevent the earth from falling, but I am told it is not sufficiently advanced to allow of people frequenting the place.


Douglas King Hazen: Work is being done there?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not just now.


Douglas King Hazen: Has any work been done?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not with a view to repairing it. The work which has been done is to prevent further slides of earth from the walk.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-generally.
275.	Flags for dominion buildings, $8,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: The instructions go out direct from the department as to what flags shall be flown on public buildings, I assume. It is the union jack only, is it not-no other flag than the union jack?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: All the flags which are provided are purchased by the public works department. They are distributed over Canada to caretakers of buildings with instructions to fly them.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Do departmental instructions call for the flying of the flag? No flag but the union jack should fly from the flagpole of any public building.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: That is the fact.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How much money was expended last year for flags?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I understand it was $5,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-generally.
276.	Public buildings generally-repairs, alterations, fittings and improvements, $200,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Who has the fixing of the clocks on post offices and other public buildings? Is that the duty of the caretaker, or are men specially employed for the purpose?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, the Department of Public Works looks after the clocks, and some person, probably a jeweller of the town, has the responsibility of keeping them in order.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I ask that question because I went through three towns some few months ago, and every post office clock was wrong.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-generally.
277.	Veterans' hospitals - repairs, improvements and alterations, $60,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Do the requests for repairs or alterations to the veterans' hospitals come from the pensions department?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.
Supply-Public Works


John Ritchie MacNicol: And Public Works simply carry them out at the request of the pensions department?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
278.	Branch administration, $190,805.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are the engineers used now to design and help put up the buildings for the different armed services?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The engineers do not design them; the architect's branch do that.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I know the architects design them, but the engineers help in laying them out?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: As much as they can. We are short of talent in our architect's branch. There is so much building going on for different services that we cannot do all the work.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But your department is doing that work?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes; most of the buildings are designed and taken care of by the Department of Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
Maintenance and operation of graving docks, locks and dams, etc.
290. Snagboats, $48,235.
John Ritchie MacNicol: While the vote does not mention the Athabaska river, I want to ask the minister about the removal of snags, stumps or trees that fall into the river from the banks. Are snags on the Athabaska river removed by this department?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am afraid that up to the present time British Columbia has had a monopoly in that respect.


John Ritchie MacNicol: British Columbia is so far away from it they would have to fly a very long distance to get to the navigable part of the Athabaska river.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I do not find in the book whether we have taken care of removals on the Athabaska river, but I will investigate that and let the hon. member know what can be done.


Thomas Vien: Shall the item carry?


John Ritchie MacNicol: No. We are helping in the very best way we can. We want these items to get through as quickly as possible.

But I feel it my duty to bring to the attention of the minister, if it is under his department, the fact that transportation facilities on the Athabaska river should be looked after better than they are. Two transportation companies, one the Northern Transportation company and the other the Hudson Bay Transportation company, are operating from Waterways north. They are doing a good job, but quite frequently, they tell me, they have the bottoms of their scows tom out while going down the river, and of course the freight is affected by the water coming in, as the result of striking these snags. While I was there last summer I told the captain of the boat on which I travelled that I would bring the matter up and see if anything can be done by this department to make transportation down the Athabaska river safer than it is. In my opinion it is one of the finest tourist routes in the world, and in due course, perhaps after the vrar, the development of tourist transportation on that river will bring a lot of money into this country. I would appreciate it if the minister would look into the matter.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I certainly will. We have something to do with the navigation.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The river is in Alberta.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We will look into the problem which the hon. member has submitted.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
Maintenance and operation of roads and bridges.
292. Kingston, La Salle causeway, $15,959.
George James Tustin: For the last two or three years I have asked how the item of maintenance of this causeway-$8,850 this year and $9,420 last year-is made up. The former minister promised on each occasion that he would give me that information, ,but so far I have not received it. Could the minister give it to me now?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The estimates for this
year? Bridgemaster, $1,460, bridge motorman, $1,110, and another-


George James Tustin: There is "operation, maintenance and supplies, $8,850" this year, and $9,420 last year.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: -and another bridge motorman, $1,200. Those are the permanent employees: a total of $4,980. Then, one temporary employee, $874; casual labour, $300. That makes a total of $6,154. General maintenance and minor repairs to property and

Supply-Public Works
equipment amount to $500, renewal of lift-span planking, $3,790, repairs to wharf and wharf abutment walls, $1,010, making a total of $5,300. Material and supplies amount to $1,250, electrical power $2,200, cost of living bonus $1,000, and contributions to unemployment insurance fund $100. This makes a total of $15,959.


George James Tustin: What are the duties of the temporary employees?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I do not know anything more than that it is casual labour when required.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers.
297.	Prince Edward Island.
Souris-breakwater repairs, $27,500.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $55,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I made a particular inspection of the harbour and docks at Charlottetown. It is a very beautiful harbour, and a good-sized one too. I do not see why it is not used more than it is, but if it is to be made full use of, the docks will have to be extended further out into deeper water. Many of the docks do not extend into deep enough water, and I hope that when the engineers again look into improvements in connection with government docks at Charlottetown, they will see that they are extended far enough out so that ships of large size can berth there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers.
298.	New Brunswick-Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $80,000.
Douglas King Hazen: With regard to this item for maintenance of services, "no new works to be undertaken", how much was expended last year? Can the minister give a break-down?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Last year we spent $70,220. It is impossible to give a break-down to show how the money will be spent this year.


Douglas King Hazen: I asked for last year.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We have not got that because the money is spent in very small amounts covering unforeseen works which it is impossible to anticipate.


Douglas King Hazen: Some of these amounts must be large if the total is $70,000, because there
is not such a large number of harbours and rivers under this item. If the minister cannot give me the figures now I wonder if he will do so later.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There is a long list of small amounts. They can be compiled and I will send them to the hon. member.


Douglas King Hazen: Perhaps the minister will take into consideration under this item the wharf at Chance Harbour.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think we can do better than that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers.
299.	Quebec.
Richelieu river (Chambly basin)-dredging, $9,500.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new wrorks to be undertaken, $250,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Several years ago a
considerable amount was voted to erect a dam about six miles south of St. Johns. At that time it was intended to do further work on the river so as to increase the depth of water in order that ships of deeper draft might ascend the river. Has anything further been done, apart from building the dam? I believe it was called Fryer's island dam.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: This item of $9,500 is
to complete the work at Chambly basin.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But has anything further been done towards the deepening of the channel in the river so that ships of deeper draft may ascend the recently completed dam?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Nothing has been done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers.
300.	Ontario.
Burlington channel-redredging, $67,800.
Grand river-agreed contribution to improvements, $65,000.
Toronto, western entrance - redredging, $24,200.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $130,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: There is a vote here in connection with Grand river. Does that refer to the Shand conservation dam three miles
Supply-Public Works

north of Fergus? The work is now completed I understand. Will there be further contributions to it?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am told that this will
practically complete the work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph branch.
Telegraph and telephone services-operation and maintenance.
305.	Land and cable telegraph lines-lower St. Lawrence and maritime provinces, including working expenses of vessels for cable work, $140,640.
Douglas King Hazen: What telegraph lines does
this refer to?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It covers all the lines
that were built in the past by governments in the pioneering district on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, in certain remote sections of the north shore of New Brunswick, and Miseou island, and some sections of Cape Breton.


Douglas King Hazen: Who operates them?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Government officials,
through Halifax and Quebec.


Douglas King Hazen: Does the Department of Public Works employ its own telegraphers?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


Douglas King Hazen: Where does that appear in the break-down?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The salary is contained in the vote with each particular item. On page 187 the salaries total $25,858; temporary assistance and commissions, $49,880; total salaries, $75,738. Then we have cost-of-living bonus, repairs, materials, supplies, et cetera.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Let us take items 306 to 310 inclusive together, and the minister can tell us the purpose of these votes.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.
Telegraph and telephone services-operation and maintenance.
306.	Alberta and Saskatchewan, $92,080.
307.	Division superintendent's office, Vancouver, $15,315.
308.	British Columbia-northern and Yukon districts, $128,750.
309.	British Columbia-Vancouver island district, $104,035.
310.	Telegraph and telephone services generally, $5,000.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is on the same basis. In the remote places where private companies would not carry on but where we have to have
r\dr. MacNicol.]
services to communicate with our officials and to ensure the safety of the people living there, governments in the past have built telegraph and telephone lines.


Mr. STIRLING:: And fire-fighting?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are they operated by the government direct?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


Mr. McNEVIN:: Is there any revenue ?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I understand there is, but it is very small.


Angus MacInnis: Have any lines been sold or transferred recently to private companies?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not that I know of.


Angus MacInnis: Does the government still control and operate all the lines that have been built by the government?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We operate all the lines that were built by the government with the exception of some that were sold seventeen or eighteen years ago. I am safe in saying that within the last ten years no lines have been disposed of.


Angus MacInnis: The minister said these lines were built because it was not profitable for private companies to build them. But as soon as they become profitable they are sold to private companies and the government operates the unprofitable ones.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am told that that is not the case.


Angus MacInnis: Does that mean that within the last ten years none of these lines has become profitable?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am told that they were never profitable.


Angus MacInnis: And that is the reason the government operates them.


Douglas King Hazen: Does the government contemplate extending any of these lines? Is there any call for that?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: With one exception, on
the Pacific coast.


Mr. ROSS (Calgary East):: With regard to item 306, page 188, there is a reduction for telegraph operation. Would the minister explain that?


Thomas Vien: There is an increase of $4,320.

Supply-Public Works


George Henry Ross: The analysis
shows a decrease of one operator and an increase in the outlay. What is the explanation?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is a change in the status of the employee. Two positions became permanent, transferred from temporary, and that reduces the temporary expenditures.


[Stage Direction]
Items agreed to.
General.
315. National Gallery of Canada, $43,720.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is the national gallery altogether open now, or is part of it closed?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We tried to accommodate one department by allowing officers of the navy-I think it is-to use one large room pending the building of quarters for them. But that does not mean the closing of the gallery.


Douglas King Hazen: Were any portraits or paintings acquired by the national gallery last
y-ear?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not that I know of. It is just maintaining what we have there.


Douglas King Hazen: There is an item for the
director, $6,000. Does he have to do with the museum as well as with the national gallery?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am told that he has not.


Douglas King Hazen: Who is the head of the
museum part? There is an item here for senior museum assistant. Is he the man in charge of the museum?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is not because he is employed in connection with the museum; it is because of his title that the word "museum" is there. He is a museum man working in the national gallery. He takes care of the art treasures. He has nothing to do with the museum proper.


Douglas King Hazen: Under whom does the
museum part come?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Mines and Resources.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements of public buildings.
319. Toronto Postal Station "A"-improvements, $72,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What is this vote for?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is to provide for conveyors in the new post office in Toronto. One 44561-316
is already under contract and provision is made for the construction of another. Matthews Conveyors Limited are the contractors.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to. [DOT]
Chief architect's branch.
487. Ottawa-Maintenance and operation of dominion public buildings and grounds, including rents, repairs, furniture, heating, etc.-further amount required, $28,600.
Douglas King Hazen: What does the word "rents" refer to here? Do you collect any rents?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, we have buildings from which we collect rents.


Douglas King Hazen: In Ottawa?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


Douglas King Hazen: What buildings? Is that what this item represents? Is it a commission paid for collecting rents, or what does it mean?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No; we have buildings owned by the crown, which have been expropriated in the past and are being rented.


Grote Stirling: But this is an expenditure.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: This is the bookkeeping entry under which it comes; it is like the word "museum" in the other instance. This does not mean that of this amount of $28,600 anything is paid in rent. As a matter of fact this is to pay for the water consumed in the public buildings. Recently there was an increase in the water rate charged by the city of Ottawa, and this is to provide for the increased cost of the water being consumed in the various public buildings.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements-harbours and rivers.
491. Ontario [DOT]- Port Maitland - dredging, $36,200.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Does this refer to Maitland on the St. Lawrence river?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, I think it is in Haldi-mand county.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where is it-at the mouth of the Grand river?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think it is.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
Chief engineer's branch.
494. To provide for commitments in connection with unemployment relief projects, $521,000.
Mr. PURDY:: Could we have an explanation of this large item?

Supply-Agriculture


Joseph Enoil Michaud: This is to meet our commitments in connection with the Quebec sewer. I understand that a few years ago an agreement was entered into with the city of Quebec to rebuild the sewer from the citadel down to lower town. It was decided that this was an undertaking toward which the dominion should contribute. The work has been going on for some time, and I understand this amount will complete it.


Gordon Timlin Purdy: What is the basis of the contribution-fifty-fifty, or what?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The province of Quebec, the city of Quebec and the federal government all contribute toward the cost of the work. Our contribution is 17i/46ths of the whole cost; that is, the cost was divided into 46 parts and we pay 17i/46ths of that cost.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Special.
449. To provide for wheat acreage reduction payments and for administration expenses in connection therewith-further amount required, $22,950,000.
Grote Stirling: Would the minister in charge of agriculture at the moment be good enough to explain why there was a large reduction in this item in the main estimates, thus reducing the total of the main estimates by many million of dollars, and then this very considerable increase in the supple-mentaries? Obviously this expenditure must have been foreseen months ago.


Mr. CRERAR:: I think the explanation is that when the main estimates were prepared no decision had been reached on the question whether or not acreage reduction bonuses would be paid for the current year. Later on, in view of the situation that developed, it was decided that the policy should be continued in order to prevent any undue increase in wheat acreage, and this vote implements that decision. That is my recollection of the matter, and I think I am within the bounds of fact in this explanation. As everyone knows, the crop on the prairies this year promises to be very good. It is not yet harvested, though the time of harvest is approaching. Storage problems will arise. I think I am correct in saying that wheat acreage has been held down to almost the limit of 1941. Had it not been for something of this kind it is probable that the acreage would have greatly increased, and we would have had to deal with very difficult questions relating to storage.


Grote Stirling: Of course we all remember that the government took a considerable amount of credit for the reduction in the 
peace-time estimates of some $30,000,000 in connection with this item. Now, at the very end of the session, we find that $22,000,000 must be voted in the supplementaries.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Quite true.


George Hugh Castleden: The amount paid out this year will depend largely upon the wheat acreage of 1942. Could the minister tell us what the wheat acreage is and what the government expect they will have to pay bonuses on this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I understand it, that is based on the reduction from 1940. Obviously I cannot give the acreage upon which bonuses will be paid; I have not that information here.


George Hugh Castleden: I believe the Minister of Trade and Commerce has some figures in that regard; perhaps he can inform the committee.


James Angus MacKinnon: My understanding is that the acreage this year is approximately 20,653,000, according to the bureau of statistics.


George Hugh Castleden: How does that compare with last year?


James Angus MacKinnon: It is about the same-I think about 500,000 acres less.


George Hugh Castleden: Then the wheat acreage reduction payment will have to be larger than it was last year?


Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: No, it will be smaller. Summer-fallow is $2 as against $4 the previous year.


George Hugh Castleden: It will all depend upon how much is in wheat, as compared with what was in wheat in 1940. I believe it is all based on 1940 now, instead of 1939 and 1940.


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: How much was paid out last year?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: 


George Hugh Castleden: Will this amount be sufficient for this year?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am told that this amount will be sufficient on the new basis.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: I do not wish to say a word to delay the passage of this item, but in the light of its size I am surprised at the remarks of the hon. member for Moose Jaw yesterday in objecting to the $1,500,000 for rural mail delivery in Ontario.


Robert Fair: When will the balance of the 1941 wheat acreage reduction bonus be paid?

Supply-National War Services


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have not the figures here.


George James Tustin: I would draw the attention of the Chair to the fact that we have passed $36,000,000 in thirty-five minutes. There should be no such rush.


Thomas Vien: I hope hon. members understand that if they have any questions in respect of any items we will stop, on request- and in fact we have done so. We have reverted to items already passed. Some do not follow at the same speed as others.


George James Tustin: Quite correct; I do not wish to say anything to offend the Chair, but I cannot read the items as fast as they are being called.


Thomas Vien: If any hon. member wishes to have any other item called, we will call it.


George James Tustin: I find under this item an amount of $495,000 for temporary assistance and $149,000 for professional services. Would the minister give a break-down of those items?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am sorry, but I have not been supplied with that information.


George James Tustin: Then could this item stand?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I could get the information from the department and forward it to the hon. member.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service.
JfJ/8. Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, and special grant of $750 to the North Wiltshire Dairying Company, North Wiltshire, Prince Edward Island- further amount required, $150,000.
Douglas King Hazen: Would the minister give us a break-down of this item?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: In the main estimates there was a vote of $108,350. That was sufficient to take care of commitments with respect to cold storage already planned and agreed upon. It is anticipated, however, that during the coming year there will be a demand for additional cold storage facilities, in view of the increased demand for dairy products, bacon, poultry and other foodstuffs to be gathered together for shipment overseas. On account of shipping difficulties these foodstuffs will have to be cared for longer than would be necessary under ordinary circumstances, when shipping facilities are readily available. In order to protect these goods it is anticipated that we may have to have additional cold storage facilities at shipping points in Canada. The locations are not ascertained. This is a vote to be used only in cases of actual and absolute need. For example, there has been 44561-3161
an application by the North Wiltshire Dairying company. When they were nearing completion of their plant they found they would require additional space. This necessitated additional expense, and therefore an extension of their subsidy or grant.
Then there are the Trenton Cold Storage company and also the Winnipeg Cold Storage company, each of which may need additional facilities. I believe there are other places in Nova Scotia, Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island and on the British Columbia coast. This vote is to take care of the emergency which may develop during the coming year in connection with providing proper cold storage facilities for commodities produced by Canadian producers.


Grote Stirling: Will all these grants be paid under the Cold Storage Act, and not as direct grants?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: This is a special grant of $750.


Grote Stirling: Supplementary to one which had already been granted, I presume, under the Cold Storage Act.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, but they could not comply with all the provisions.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
200. Canadian travel bureau service-to assist in promoting tourist business in Canada, $500,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Here is another very
large sum of money. The details at page 147 of the estimates indicate that, the staff has been reduced by two. I should have thought it could have been greatly reduced and the staff placed in other departments during the war. Salaries have increased from $40,000 to $43,000. If there is not very much tourist traffic from the United States-and in fact there is not, because one does not see one car on the road to-day where he would have seen ten in other years-one wonders why this sum of money is necessary. The tourist traffic along the St. Lawrence and to Hudson bay has been greatly diminished. What is the staff doing?


Mr. THORSON:: I would ask one of my colleagues to move that the estimate be reduced from $500,000 to $250,000. My reason for asking this is that because of gasoline and tire shortages we have felt it would be wise to discourage the movement of tourists from the United States to Canada, especially when to a large extent we have to obtain both gasoline and tires from the United States. We have therefore practically discontinued the
Supply-National War Services

operations of the bureau. The staff has been reduced from thirty to nine, and I expect that of that nine, four will be leaving, thereby leaving only a skeleton staff to answer inquiries. In view of gasoline and rubber shortages we have felt this a proper move.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the staff which would otherwise be engaged in this branch be given positions in some other department?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Some have left; some
have been transferred to other departments. The best possible arrangements have been made for meeting the situation.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Mr. Chairman, I move
.he amendment suggested by my colleague, that item 200 be reduced from S500,000 to $250,000.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In view of what the
minister has just said, it seems to me there is no justification for spending $250,000. Why $250,000?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: If the amount is not
required, it will not be spent. Some commitments have already been made which must be met. Some funds will be released for the purpose of making pictures for subsequent use and distribution in the United States. There may be a certain amount used for good-will institutional advertising which will not encourage people to come to Canada and use up gas and tires but will keep the name of Canada before them. I assure my hon. friend that the greatest care will be taken in the expenditure of this money, and if it is not required it will not be spent.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: It seems to me that
this is no time to be worrying about the tourist business that may come after the war, or keeping the name of Canada before the eyes of people who may be interested in coming here. I think this item should be reduced to $1, and the staff now employed in this service should be able to fit into some more essential service. According to the details on page 147, the sum of $40S,000 is to be spent on advertising and publicity. How does the minister propose to spend this $250,000, and what percentage of it will go for advertising and publicity?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: We have already spent
approximately $30,000. I do not think we shall spend very much more. There may be a small amount for good-will institutional advertising, as I mentioned, but we may not spend even that. I would not like to go below $250,000, but I do not think all of it will be spent.
I Mr. Thorson.]


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: There is a big spread
between $30,000 and $250,000. The minister should give us some break-down of the $250,000 .before asking us to pass this item.


Angus MacInnis: I think the point of the hon. member for Mackenzie is well taken, on the basis of the minister's own statement. The minister said that the government had decided, because of the shortage of gasoline and tires, to discontinue tourist advertising in the United States, and that only a skeleton staff would be kept on in the bureau to answer inquiries. It is a bad principle, I submit, to vote more money than you expect to spend; otherwise there is always an invitation to spend it for some purpose that may not be important. The leader of the opposition this afternoon advocated a great reduction in expenditure. While not agreeing with him to that extent, I believe we should not expend money unless we can get increased production or save resources that we already possess. The minister says that this $250,000 is not necessary for the purpose for which it was originally intended. In that case it should not be kept in the estimates; otherwise it may be drawn upon for some unimportant purpose.


George Hugh Castleden: I should like to have a break-down of the $408,000 that was spent last year on advertising and publicity. I see the minister has a director at $7,000 a year, an investigator at $4,000, and two head clerks at $3,000 each. In view of the reduced necessity of this work, an explanation is in order.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I cannot at the moment give a detailed break-down of the advertising item, but I can say in a general way that the bureau conducted an advertising campaign, largely in the United States, in the course of which advertisements appeared during the tourist year in fifty-eight magazines and sixty-eight newspapers, reaching a reading public of 154,570,000. The advertising expenditure was $259,910.50. I could get for my hon. friend a break-down showing what was paid to each newspaper and magazine if he wishes to have it.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I ask for a break-down of how this $250,000 is proposed to be spent.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: There are already a number of commitments. We have spent over $27,000 in advertising which we embarked upon before we made our decision to discontinue advertising for the purpose of attracting tourists. I think it necessary that a sum of $50,000 be appropriated so that films can be made for the use of the travel bureau. That

Supply-National War Services
has been requested by the national film board for the use of the travel bureau, which has been instrumental in bringing United States dollar exchange to Canada when it was greatly needed. The situation in that respect is a little improved, but there is still that need. I think that $250,000 which is left in the item will be more than ample for the requirements of the bureau, but just how much more I am unable to say at this time. The tourist development committee in the department has been pressing for some good-will institutional advertising in the United States. But we may not spend even that. I think it would be wise to leave these amounts in the estimates with the assurance I have given the committee.
Mr. MaeINNIS:	I understood the minister to say that the staff was to be reduced from thirty to nine?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Yes.
Mr. MaeINNIS:	I see that there is provision made here for fourteen.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: There are others,
temporaries.
Mr. MaeINNIS:	Which of this staff is to
be retained as a skeleton staff?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: 
Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: No; Mr. Dolan is called
the chief.
Mr. MaeINNIS:	Well, he is called the
director here.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: Well, it is the same
person.
Mr. MaeINNIS:	What will the director,
with a salary of $7,000, have to do at the present time if the only work of the bureau now is the answering of questions and the giving out of some information? To answer questions and reply to letters as they come in is hardly sufficient work for a director at $7,000 a year.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: That is quite true. The
situation which I have indicated to the committee is, I hope, a temporary one, but there
are plans to keep arranging and the future is still to be considered. It is true the chief will not have much to do this year.


George Hugh Castleden: The minister in his
break-down gave us $250,000 for advertising in magazines. How about the other $150,000 of the $408,000? While he is answering that would he explain why he anticipates the cost of temporary assistance this year will be $13,000 as compared with $7,000 last year?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I gave the figure of
advertising. The total amount of $408,000 included advertising and publicity. I am sorry that I have not under my hand the complete break-down of that, but I shall be glad to furnish it to my hon. friend.


Clarence Gillis: I do not wish to haggle
over the reduction in this item. What I have in mind is this: the national film board and the Canadian travel bureau are closely related here. I think they are tied together, and the minister has made reference to them in this connection. To my mind the amount being appropriated for the work of the national film board is very small. The board is about the most valuable educational medium for war purposes that there is in Canada to-day.


Mr. MARTIN:: Does that item include all the national film board vote?
The CHAIRMAN. Order. We are on item 200. The film board is 201.


Clarence Gillis: I was dealing with the proposal to reduce. I do not see any necessity for wasting a lot of time on this particular item. The minister says that if the money is not spent it will be there; that is all.


Thomas Vien: We have to dispose of item 200.


Clarence Gillis: I am talking about item 200.


Thomas Vien: All right, but not the film board.


Clarence Gillis: No, I am not talking about the film board now. As I understand it, the minister made the observation that we shall be able to scrutinize these estimates again next session, and he has reduced the amount by 50 per cent. I merely suggest that the amount he is talking of might be diverted to the other organization to promote and develop it.


Mr. McCANN:: The discussion of this appropriation should be made in the light of the accomplishments of the Canadian travel bureau in the past, not entirely with regard to its work at this particular time. I think it is generally recognized that the Canadian travel bureau has been one of the best agencies we

Supply-National War Services
have had to advertise Canada throughout the world, and particularly to our neighbours in the United States. When it is known that in a single year United States tourists have brought into this country $200,000,000 and at a time when, as the minister has said, Canada needed United States dollar exchange, and, in addition to that, 22,000,000 people in a single year have visited this country, I submit that money could not be spent to better advantage than in the advertising which the Canadian travel bureau has done.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In the past.


James Joseph McCann: In the past. That is exactly the point I am making. One should not consider this appropriation in view of the circumstances this year without taking into consideration what has been accomplished in past years and what the future may hold in store for an agency of this particular type. Even at this time, when by reason of the curtailment of oil, gasoline and rubber, we have not that mode of transportation which there was formerly, there are a great many people in the United States who, when you make Canada known to them through advertisements in United States newspapers or magazines, will spend their holidays in this country. Within the last month, in coming to Ottawa from New York, I met on the train a number of people who were on their way to spend their holidays in the Saguenay country. It is somewhat unfair to say that the director will not have much to do now. That is the statement of the minister. I say, consider what the director has done. He has built up a splendid business in this country.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: I should have said that ihe will not be as busy as he has been in previous years.


James Joseph McCann: I agree with that. He has been a very valuable public servant, and, both through the conduct of the travel bureau and in personal trips and talks to great bodies of men and women in the United States, he has helped, as they say in the vernacular, very much to "put Canada upon the map."
It would be poor policy to drop that method of keeping Canada before the people of the United States. One has but to travel throughout the United States to be convinced that there is an utter lack of knowledge there of this country. Halifax, Vancouver and Winnipeg are contiguous to a great number of Americans and it is only by advertising Canada, through both the written and the spoken word, that we can bring the great attributes and other attractions of this country before the people of the

United States. If we want to continue the good-neghbour policy and promote good-will with our friends to the south I know of no better agency for that work than the continuance of the Canadian travel bureau. I quite agree with some of those who object to the appropriation of half a million dollars and who say that it might well be cut this year to half that amount. But there are a great number of Americans who can be approached and brought to this country by rail to spend their holidays in parts of Canada, and not only would that be of great benefit to them but it would benefit this country by reason of their greatly improved knowledge of Canada and as a result of the money they would leave here. Therefore anything we can do to promote a better feeling between the people of the United States and the people of Canada should be done. Through no fault of the travel bureau or of its director the type of travel we have had has fallen off, but that is no reason why the expenditure should be cut to the bone. Let us retain at least the good public servants we have in connection with the travel bureau. Let us retain a sufficient appropriation to keep that bureau functioning, and let us continue, in season and out of season, to advertise Canada to our neighbours to the south. It would be one of the most important factors in the promotion and continuance of good-will between the two countries.


Thomas Langton Church: The item has been reduced to $250,000. Hon. members will notice that His Majesty's opposition consists at the moment of three members from the city of Toronto, though I may say that my good friend the hon. member for St. John-Albert (Mr. Hazen) has just re-entered the chamber after being in the house all day. I want to point out to the government the absolute uselessness of spending a cent on this bureau so long as the present policy is continued. We have a large exhibition, the Canadian National in Toronto, but the property of that exhibition has been given up to war purposes. About two million people from all parts of the world visit the exhibition every year. I see my good friends from the Windsor district and from districts along the great lakes and the river St. Lawrence. It is grossly unfair that this large national business is being conducted and curtailed as it is at the present time. In the last war the United States came into the conflict as our ally in 1917 and at that time there was practically free entry into this country. There were three large, fine lake steamers on the Niagara district

Supply-National War Services
route from Toronto and Americans came freely. Now there is only one boat, and the tourist business has been practically ruined. I do not think the government is wise so far as the $50 exchange is concerned. It ought to be allowed for Canadians to go twice a year to the United States. What the government is saving in this way it is losing in the tourist trade, especially by not having reciprocal visits to retail stores. This is true of every city along the border from Montreal to the head of the lakes. It is a grave mistake. There are many conventions coming here and the people are disappointed. All the exchange saved is lost in the wash up to $50. We had a large number of Lions the other day in Toronto. By the way, the word "lion" is practically forgotten in this country; we hear of scarcely anything but the eagle. I would remind the government, however, that the great lion is in existence guarding our shores.
However, to continue, not only the hotel men but the convention people are complaining. We are losing a lot of good tourist business. I was at Fort Erie and the Niagara district a short while ago. I have not been in the United States more than once or twice since the great war. I do not often go there. I know, however, that many Americans have relatives here, and vice versa. There are Americans who have relatives in Canada in the lake Erie and lake Ontario towns. Their great grandfathers owned summer resort property in this country, but most of those properties are vacant this summer, according to what I have read in the Muskoka Herald and other Ontario papers. Our policy is all wrong. We have what I might call a large expeditionary force in Washington to arrange these matters, but it seems to me that nothing is being done by them about a freer exchange of tourist trade and to make it easier for Canadians to visit the United States. A large bridge-the Rainbow bridge-was constructed at Niagara at considerable cost. But what do we find? On the 4th of July we did not get the business that we should have had. This summer we are not getting anything like the tourist traffic that we had during the last war. In the Montreal district I used to see Americans who had come from the west. They crossed at Detroit, went to Toronto and travelled all the way down from Lachine rapids to points below Quebec. Now there is little of that. I repeat, we are losing a lot of money, a lot of business, by not having a freer exchange of tourist trade. A proper exchange arrangement would be of great advantage to us in this war.
The minister is only young in the department; he has been there only a short time.
I say to him that we should revise our programme because we are losing many American friends. I remember during the last war when between two and three thousand American college students in the officers training corps at Fort Niagara, New York, on lake Ontario, used to cross the border and visit Toronto weekly. The city of Toronto used to interest itself in this matter by arranging for boats for them from Niagara, Ontario. A steamer crossed the lake for them, and the students who came to Toronto returned on Sunday night after a fine week-end. That exchange of visits did a great deal of good for the two allies in the last war. These young people were largely officers of the United States training corps, and there were others from some forty-six universities in the United States. True, our students spent only a little bit of money over there, but these visits were a good thing for our relations during and after the war. There are only a few members here this afternoon but I hope that in the recess the suggestions I have made will be taken up. The present policy is absolutely wrong. People are being prosecuted in the police court for having $1.25 or $1.75 of United States funds not accounted for on a week-end visit. There are many such prosecutions in my city, the only city where it is enforced by foreign exchange control officers. All this is hampering our tourist trade with an ally of ours in war. I do not object to reasonable methods at the border in time of war, but the present arrangement seems to be all one-sided so far as the tourist trade is concerned. Americans can cross the border freely at any time. They can walk over the bridge at Niagara and hardly a question is asked. But when the traffic is the other way, when Canadians try to cross-well, you had better look out or you will be arrested for breaking some law or another.	I am sorry to detain the
committee, but I wish to protest. It is ruining the tourist business all over the great lakes, and Canada is the loser.


George Henry Ross: I agree with what has been said by the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann). The tourist business is one of our most1 important industries. We think of wheat as one of the greatest, but in some years the tourist traffic brings more money into the country than wheat.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: How does that hurt Hitler?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It helps our foreign
exchange.

Supply-National War Services


George Henry Ross: It helps our foreign exchange to a considerable extent, and we need that exchange at this time, particularly United States exchange. We need United States tourists; we need United States exchange; we need them very much. I hope the minister will give this matter careful consideration before finally deciding to reduce the item.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Where are the estimates for the administration of national war services?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: The bulk of the estimates of the Department of National War Services come from the war appropriation. The reason why these two items are under the Department of National War Services is that these two organizations which existed in peace time were put under the jurisdiction of the Minister of National War Services.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
201. National film board, including motion picture bureau, $237,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the purpose of the item on page 148, development of international circulation of films, $35,000? Apparently it was not in the estimates last year at all.


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: This item of $35,000 is broken down as follows:
Equipment	 $10,000
Prints and materials	 12,500
Employees	 7,500
Promotional	expense	 5,000
The sum required does not represent altogether new expenditures. It is intended to supply overseas services some of which have in previous years been undertaken and financed by different departments in piecemeal fashion. It is now proposed to consolidate and plan these services. Some copies of films for overseas were provided in previous years from the motion picture bureau vote under the item described as "materials" when money could be spared from this heading. It was felt that this policy was no longer satisfactory, for the following reasons: first, the increased demand for films on the home front does not permit of this source being tapped; second, the growing demand for films overseas now requires separate consideration and may no longer be met from what can be spared from the vote on "materials", and third, many copies of Canadian films now abroad are out of date and are really doing Canada more harm than good, and a special effort is now being made to substitute new films. The Department of External

Affairs has interested itself in this particular matter, and this project represents a further aspect of the development of the government's policy with respect to South America; film services have already been planned by External Affairs for development in Brazil and the Argentine, and further development of services now planned in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa also awaits the support of this vote.
The distribution of Canadian films in the United States has been put on a commercial basis with a good deal of saving to the Canadian government, but a full development of our Canadian film service there requires the support of this vote of $35,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is there any revenue from films sent overseas or to the United States?


Joseph Thorarinn Thorson: There will not be any revenue from this particular item. It should be remembered that the national film board is the central agency and makes films for other departments, and in respect of the films it makes for other departments that money is chargeable to the other departments and recovered from them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
343. Electricity and gas inspection services, including administration of the Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act, $285,565.
Thomas Langton Church: War services in light, heat, power and transportation are being given at cost by these electric companies and gas companies to the government during the war. Many munitions plants could not carry on were it not for that supply of power at cost for direct current. The inspection by the government is costing them a large amount of money and should be eliminated in war time for publicly owned plants. Does the government expect the hydro-electric system serving some 800 municipalities to pay the cost of inspecting these appliances in plants where war work is being done? The inspection is necessary, or something might happen that could cause an explosion and delay the war work. I think this inspection cost ought to be cut out altogether, and the federal authority should supply this inspection free. This matter has been before the minister of that department for years. Action was promised the year before last. It is not fair that the federal authority should ask these publicly owned municipal and provincial power companies in the Niagara district and elsewhere to pay for this inspection service. There are some in this very building. The principle is

Supply-Trade and Commerce
all wrong. I ask the minister to look into the matter and see whether some amendment cannot be made, especially in regard to war work and the cost greatly reduced. The cost is excessive.


James Angus MacKinnon: The object of the department is to keep the receipts reasonably close to the cost of service. The cost of the service for examining domestic meters, regarding which the hon. member spoke two years ago when he referred to this matter, is just 60 cents for the five years, or at the rate of 12 cents a year or 1 cent a month, which is very small. I shall, however, be glad to have the officials look into the matter my hon. friend has raised.


Thomas Langton Church: The Minister of Munitions and Supply is regulating oil furnaces, boats, street cars, and all electrical appliances and services to war plants, and the country is getting the benefit of this at cost. There should be some revision. They are not giving the service at cost; far from it. It is ridiculous to put upon the private consumer such charges in costs of inspecting these federal war munitions buildings and munitions plants. The government is getting this power at about one-third of what it used to cost, getting it at cost from publicly-owned companies. There is a unit hydro system of public ownership at below cost to war plants. I wish the minister would look into the matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
*.'(6. Publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad other than in the United Kingdom and Europe, $33,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Recently we have had a good deal of discussion about shortwave radio. What is the minister's opinion as to how useful short-wave radio would be for the advertising of Canada in Canada, the United Kingdom and abroad? I understand that last year several thousand dollars were spent on publicity of this kind in the United Kingdom, while a good deal of money has been spent in this direction in the countries of south America. For many years I have advocated some such form of advertising, and it seems to me that it could be done at very much less cost and with far more success in this way. I think it might be interesting to learn the views of the minister in this regard.


James Angus MacKinnon: This item has to do largely with newspaper advertising, but if I understood the hon. member correctly he asked about the beneficial results that might flow from the installation of a
short-wave radio station and the use of short-wave radio in relation to other parts of this hemisphere. When the Canadian trade mission was in south America we received urgent requests on the part of those countries for more Canadian news, and we have given considerable study to the question. We have urged in the proper places that this suggestion be dealt with as favourably as possible, in the hope that such a station might be established in order to bring closer together the peoples of Latin America and those of north America.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: One of the objections that have been urged to the installation of a short-wave radio station has been the cost of such installation, the cost of operation and so on. The value we would get in return would be immeasurably greater. It is difficult to estimate that value in dollars and cents, but I think it is most urgent that this station should be set up in order that we may send more news to south America, let them know more about our products and so on. After this war is over, we would be in a better position to get those markets than we would be if this were not done.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The radio committee has made several recommendations to this effect.


Thomas Langton Church: I do not object to the
Department of Trade and Commerce carrying on this publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad, though, of course, this item does not cover the United Kingdom and Europe. I do object, however, to the fact that while we have this service, which on the whole has been efficiently operated under this department, other branches of the government carry on their own publicity work, much of which is not needed, which causes duplication and triplication of the publicity sendee. I believe the money we spend on publicity in the United States, with the exception of that spent under this department, is wasted, and it amounts to a very large sum. All these services should be coordinated under Trade and Commerce. Our neighbours across the border do not want this advertising of Canada and our war effort. The government would be far better off in telling the Canadian people all about the war. That work is left very largely to the newspapers, however, as I said last night. The same applies to the money spent on publicity in Great Britain. I am sure the people of the United States resent all the forced advertising and publicity being carried on there, and it is of no value to Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Trade and Commerce
[Stage Direction]
Canada Grain Act.
349.	Operation and maintenance, including inspection and weighing, registration, etc., $1,558,703.
George Hugh Castleden: I notice that this item has to do with inspection and weighing, while item 347 deals with the weights and measures inspection service. Is there any duplication of service?


James Angus MacKinnon: Item 347 is for the weights and measures inspection service, while this item is for the Canada Grain Act. They are entirely separate.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the work done under item 349 which costs this amount of money?


John Gordon Ross: The weighing and inspection of all cars of grain in both western and eastern Canada.


James Angus MacKinnon: The work done at Winnipeg, at the head of the lakes and all the way through in connection with the handling of grain, from the time we take it at the elevator.


George Hugh Castleden: The government pays the total cost of checking the weights of all cars?


John Gordon Ross: The government pays the cost, but the farmer pays it back in the charge of $2 a car.


George Hugh Castleden: What is done with the money the farmer pays for this service?


John Gordon Ross: It goes into the consolidated revenue fund, I suppose, and this is the amount paid out by the government.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the amount
paid in?


John Gordon Ross: It is a little less than the amount paid by the department.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the amount, if the minister can give it to me.


James Angus MacKinnon: The cost of inspection and weighing is given together. For 1940-41 the receipts totalled $924,022.08, while the expenditures amounted to $1,454,130.74.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada Grain Act.
350.	Canadian government elevators, including equipment, $373,002.
George Hugh Castleden: How many of these elevators are there, and what is their capacity?


James Angus MacKinnon: In the western division the total capacity is 509,353,519 bushels, and in the eastern division, 90,085,800 bushels.


George Hugh Castleden: The government does not operate any of these government elevators?


James Angus MacKinnon: Those are the licensed storage premises.


George Hugh Castleden: They are governmentowned elevators?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is the total elevator capacity.


George Hugh Castleden: They are Canadian government elevators.


James Angus MacKinnon: I was not giving those figures.


George Hugh Castleden: That is what I want.


John Gordon Ross: Internal, or all of them?


George Hugh Castleden: The Canadian ones.


John Gordon Ross: There are two kinds.


James Angus MacKinnon: It will be understood that we are working under some difficulty. I had hoped to have with me an official of the board of grain commissioners, but I told him he would not be needed until this evening.


George Hugh Castleden: I would be willing to have the item stand, so that the minister could give the information later. I would also give notice of this question. What is the amount received by the government in leases for these elevators? I would be prepared to receive that answer at eight o'clock.


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall have it for the hon. member at that time.
Item stands.
Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
351.	Administration, $88,179.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is Doctor Coats still in the'government service?


James Angus MacKinnon: He is on superannuation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
353. Census of population, $1,018,015.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is this an annual expenditure, or just a clean-up.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Angus MacKinnon: It is just a progress expenditure.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: What will be the total cost of taking and compiling the census?


James Angus MacKinnon: The total census requirements for last year were $2,750,000, and for this year they are $903,140.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I understand it will take some time to complete the compilation. What will be the cost when completed?


James Angus MacKinnon: I do not believe I can give the actual figures, but the cost will become progressively less each year. A great deal will depend upon the compilation asked for and required for census information.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The total cost of the census last year was $2,750,000, and for this year it is $903,140. Is it all now paid for, or are we still paying for it?


James Angus MacKinnon: The actual head count was completed last year, but the work connected with the census has been under way since then.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The analysis.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: There are some interesting machines in the bureau of statistics which are used in connection with compiling the census. What special recognition has been given the civil servant who invented these machines, and have patents been taken out?


James Angus MacKinnon: The inventor of the machines gets a small royalty. I am informed it is $1,000 for one type of machine, and $1,800 for the other. That is given by way of encouragement. He is a paid official of the department, and I am informed that the position occupied by the inventor has been reclassified since he perfected the invention.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In view of the fact that only very few of these machines are available, that seems to me a very small compensation. If I recall correctly, these cariis go through at the rate of about thirty a minute. I understand there are no other machines in the world which perform nearly as well as these. A civil servant who has done such exceptional work should be given some permanent recognition for such a worth-while contribution.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Many commercial machines go faster than thirty cards a minute.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions.
S56. Administration, $9,946.
George Hugh Castleden: How much went
through the department last year by way of subventions?


James Angus MacKinnon: For last year it was $1,383,610. The hon. member will notice that the estimate for 1942-43 is $738,456.


George Hugh Castleden: What are the duties of the director of trade routes?


James Angus MacKinnon: He is the official who supervises all these services and the expenditure of all these moneys. He also gives advice to Canadian exporters as to how they should ship their goods.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council.
360. Salaries and other expenses of the national research council, $857,743.
John Ritchie MacNicol: During the last year or two we have read in the press that one or two officials in the national research council have been working on some scheme to improve the manufacturing of magnesium metal. We learned that later on one or more of these officials left the department, and that they are now engaged in the manufacturing of that metal. I should like to know whether the process was developed by government officials, at the expense of the government, and afterwards used elsewhere? Does the government receive any return from the process when used outside the department?


James Angus MacKinnon: The production of magnesium metal has been receiving a great deal of attention from the technical staff of the national research council. The work is being done in connection with the trade outside.
Item stands.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock. Canada Grain Act.
330. Canadian government elevators, including equipment, $373,002.


James Angus MacKinnon: Before the dinner recess the hon. member for
Supply-Trade and Commerce

Yorkton asked for the capacity of the dominion government elevators. I am giving this in detail:
Bushels
Port Arthur	 3,250,000
Moose Jaw	 5,500,000
Saskatoon	 5,500,000
Calgary	 2,500,000
Edmonton	 2,350,000
Lethbridge	 1,250,000
Prince Rupert	 1,250,000
Halifax	 2,200,000
Vancouver	 4,335,000
28,135,000
The hon. member then asked what money was realized by the government on leases of these elevators. The only elevator leased is the one at Port Arthur, at a rental of $51,000 plus a further additional rental of half a cent a bushel on all grain in excess of 9,000,000 bushels elevated. In the year 1941-42 this amounted to $57,101.44.


George Hugh Castleden: That is the only
government-owned elevator which is leased to any other company?


James Angus MacKinnon: Under the Department of Trade and Commerce, yes.


George Hugh Castleden: And all the others
are operated by the government under this item?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: What amount is paid to that company for storing grain in the Port Arthur terminal?


James Angus MacKinnon: I
have not these figures here but I think that was gone into very thoroughly before the agriculture committee and that all these figures are contained in the report of the proceedings of that committee this year.


George Hugh Castleden: Well I have the report of the agriculture committee and what prompted me to ask the question is that I do not see that particular item. But I notice in the report given with regard to the operating of the Moose Jaw elevator for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1942, they took in 3,827 bushels and the earnings for that year were $338,344.92. The expenditures were only $47,691, leaving a surplus revenue over expenditure of $290,653.92. The reason why they only took in 3,827 bushels was that the elevator was practically filled throughout the entire twelve months period. The point I want to make is that if the 3,250,000 bushels capacity of the Port Arthur elevator was filled during that period, practically $260,000 must have been made on its rental.


James Angus MacKinnon: I
am informed, as the hon. member is well aware, that the elevator in question has been operated by a private company, and they do not report to us as to their business. They have leased the elevator on the basis which I have just mentioned, and that is the amount in which we are interested.


George Hugh Castleden: Who leases this
elevator?


James Angus MacKinnon: McCabe Bros. Grain company.


George Hugh Castleden: I know, but who determines what the amount of the rental shall be, and who signs as lessor? The Department of Trade and Commerce?


James Angus MacKinnon: The government, on the recommendation of the board of grain commissioners.


George Hugh Castleden: The figures are not available of the amount received from the grain board for the storage of wheat?


James Angus MacKinnon: This is on an item dealing with the board of grain commissioners: I am advised that the board of grain commissioners are not furnished with any information on the point which the hon. gentleman has just raised. It is a matter which would be properly procurable from the wheat board.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Where is the item on the wheat board?


James Angus MacKinnon: There is no item.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: There has been in other years.


James Angus MacKinnon: No, there has been no item in other years on the wheat board.


George Hugh Castleden: We pay the deficit of the wheat board, do we not?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: Does that not come through as an estimate?


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Referring to this item, I do not know whether I properly understood the minister that there was only one elevator owned by the government of Canada, one terminal elevator located at Fort William, which was being rented to a private corporation?


James Angus MacKinnon: Under control of the Department of Trade and Commerce.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


John George Diefenbaker: In addition to that, aa the minister must be aware, quite a number of elevators owned by the government are to-day being leased by the government to private corporations in which private corporations are storing government wheat, which the government could store a great deal cheaper were it to operate the elevators. We had an example of that very recently where one corporation was able to rent from the government one elevator at Fort William, store it almost to capacity throughout the year with government wheat, the government paying for the storage of its own wheat in its own elevator, and the private corporation able to make a net profit, at the end of the year, of over $400,000.


John Gordon Ross: Not on that
elevator.


John George Diefenbaker: In connection with their storage, on the elevator.


John Gordon Ross: One elevator?


John George Diefenbaker: That was the evidence which was given.


John Gordon Ross: The wheat pool.


John George Diefenbaker: I am discussing
the principle of the thing, and I point out here, too, that on April 21 last a return was brought down, in answer to several questions asked by myself which were as follows:
1.	What is the location of and the capacity of each of the interior or terminal grain elevators owned or otherwise controlled by the government of Canada whether in Canada or the United States?
2.	Which of said elevators have been leased to private corporations or individuals?
3.	What was the actual amount paid by each to the government as rental by each of the lessees thereof during the years (a) 1940, and (b) 1941?
4.	What is the amount paid to each of the said lessees for wheat or other grain storage during each of the said years by, (a) the government of Canada directly or indirectly; (b) the Canadian wheat board?
The answers to these questions reveal that, of the various elevators owned and controlled by the government of Canada, the following are rented by the government to private corporations, namely: Elevator No. 1 which is located at Vancouver; elevator No. 1 annex; elevators No. 2, No. 3 and No. 4, all located at Vancouver; and finally another elevator in Saint John, New Brunswick. I cannot understand why it is, when the government of Canada owns and controls most of the wheat in the country, it should see fit to lease these elevators to private corporations wherein these corporations store government wheat for which the people of Canada
are paying and the farmer indirectly is receiving a lower return for the wheat he sells. The time has come when such conditions should be ended, because there can be no justification for the government in any of the' last two or three years leasing its elevators to private corporations to store government wheat for the benefit of the private corporation and the shareholders.


James Angus MacKinnon: I have no objection to my hon. friend making a statement on the matter, although I do not think it is relevant to the item under discussion. The only elevator under the control of the board of grain commissioners, the estimates of which branch are being dealt with now, is the one at Port Arthur.


John George Diefenbaker: What the minister says is perfectly true. But that is one example, and I am pointing out further examples of the same course of action in order to ask the minister and the government to put an end to a condition of affairs that results in the government having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars above that which it would cost the dominion were the government to operate its own elevators instead of leasing them to private corporations. I asked this question so far as the board of grain commissioners is concerned: Which of the said elevators-there are a number of them-have been leased to private corporations or individuals? The answer is, Port Arthur. The next question was: What was the rental paid by each to the government in 1940 and 1941? The answer given is that in so far as Port Arthur is concerned-the minister says that at the moment I should deal with that one-in the first year it was $72,230.98, and in the second year, $67,900.25. The capacity of that elevator at Port Arthur is 3,250,000 bushels, and at the present rate of storage it is a matter of simple computation to show that this private corporation is making approximately $200,000 a year, or approximately $150,000 a year net profit after paying all expenses in the operation of an elevator owned by the government and filled with government wheat. The time has come when the minister should do more than say that it was rented some years ago in the days when rent was very fair and when the elevator was not filled to capacity. This elevator to-day, like every other elevator in Canada, is almost filled to capacity, at any rate 90 per cent, all the year round. Will the minister tell the committee what the attitude of the government is in this matter, whether it contemplates once and for all, so long as the war lasts, so long as storage facilities are necessary, terminating a principle whereby the
Supply-Trade and Commerce

government is renting its own premises for the storage of its own wheat, and in return receiving an amount far below that which it should be getting.


James Angus MacKinnon: I understand that this matter has been fully dealt with. I believe it is on the records of the house now; certainly it appears in the records of the proceedings of the agriculture committee. If the hon. member really wants the information, I should be glad to place the facts on the record with reference to the leasing of this elevator, but I think it is a waste of time to do so. It has been done before, and certainly the matter was gone into very fully this year before the committee on agriculture.


John George Diefenbaker: All I ask the minister is, does he think it is justified.


James Angus MacKinnon: The present lease does not expire for some time. I will not take advantage of the opportunity to go into the reasons for the lease at the time it was made, when there was no grain available and when it was realized that, in order to make a profit on storage, an elevator at the head of the lakes must have feeders on the prairies. I do not think it is necessary to go into that at the present time, but the fact is that the lease does not expire until July 31, 1944, and I am sure that in the meantime the board of grain commissioners and the government will give very careful consideration to the renewal of that lease in the light of circumstances as they may develop between now and that time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: When was the elevator first leased?


James Angus MacKinnon: In 1933.


John Gordon Ross: I do not want to get into a debate on wheat at this time. Very often we get into these debates at the end of the session, and they take up a great deal of time. The whole matter was thoroughly discussed with regard to this elevator at Port Arthur in, and to the satisfaction of, the committee on agriculture. As the minister has said, the reason for leasing government elevators in this country has always been that the government. elevators did not have the feeder system of country elevators to feed them, with the result that in any year when there was not a great surplus of grain these elevators got practically nothing to store or handle. The consequence was a loss in the running of the elevators. We had all the figures with regard to all government internal

terminal elevators, and we also had figures on the record with regard to one elevator that could not even be leased. No one would even bid for it.


James J. Donnelly: This is the one.


John Gordon Ross: No. This last year or so you could not get a bid for one of the government elevators. No one would lease the thing on any terms because it was out of position for grain at the time. The hon. member for Lake Centre has made quite a speech on this question. As a matter of fact the government, through the board of grain commissioners, has done the proper thing in the past in leasing these elevators. There is, I will admit, an entirely different situation to-day. An elevator that could not make a cent a few years ago can now make money because it has a lot of grain in it and there is a tremendous surplus of wheat in the country. That, of course, will have to be taken into consideration when another lease is to be made, but until the end of the lease the government could not say, now that you are making some money we want to break the lease. That would not be a proper thing to do. Yet that is what is suggested with regard to this elevator. The other elevators about which the hon. member spoke were elevators belonging to the railway companies and the harbours board, not run by the board of grain commissioners like the internal storage elevators at Prince Rupert, Churchill and Fort William.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Could the government not always expropriate the lease? That would imply compensation.


John Gordon Ross: Absolutely.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That
would be an equitable thing to do, if it were considered good policy to do it.


John Gordon Ross: Would you not have to pay compensation on equitable grounds?


Richard Burpee Hanson: You would have to pay compensation. I would not attempt now to state the principle.


John Gordon Ross: Where would the government be ahead?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think in the long run they would be ahead under present conditions.


George Hugh Castleden: What revenue did the government receive from the other elevators it owns and operated last year?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Angus MacKinnon: The revenues were as follows for 1940-41:
Revenue Deficit
Moose Jaw	
$202,901	26Saskatoon	
223,121	16Calgary	
22,057	58Edmonton	
20,935	76Prince Rupert	.... $ 2,724 83Lethbridge	22,757 32


Richard Burpee Hanson: Were those gross revenues or net revenues?


James Angus MacKinnon: These are the net earnings or net loss in each case.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What was the position with reference to Prescott?


James Angus MacKinnon: Prescott, also Halifax and Vancouver, are under the national harbours board.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I do not want to go over what was argued before the agriculture committee, but it seems to me that all the arguments I heard with reference to the operating of these elevators, the handling of wheat by the wheat board, the disposal of cash wheat and the taking of options showed that the ordinary storage rates of normal times, when elevators were filled for only part of the year, are no longer satisfactory rates now that elevators are filled to capacity for almost twelve months in the year. The rates are much too high. In my opinion that was shown again and again in the evidence before the committee on agriculture.


James Angus MacKinnon: It is worthy of consideration at least.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has the board of grain commissioners given any consideration to reducing these rates, and, if so, have they come to any conclusion?


James J. Donnelly: For years I have contended that storage rates for wheat have been too high. In 1940 they were one cent a month, one-thirtieth of a cent a day. At that time the Liberals of Saskatchewan held a number of meetings, and we decided to present our case to the board of grain commissioners, asking them to cut the rate to one-sixtieth of a cent a day. The board met about July 3 or 4 and considered the representation we had made. They decided to let the matter stand for a while and to meet later. They met later and at the end of the month published a statement in the newspapers saying they had presentations from the line elevators and from the Saskatchewan pool, the Manitoba pool and the Alberta pool, asking that the rate of one-thirtieth of a cent a day remain. They also said presentations
had been made from some western members asking that the rate be cut to one-sixtieth of a cent a day, and, they said, taking everything into consideration and viewing it from every angle, they had decided to cut the rate to one forty-fifth of a cent a day. That is when that was done.
The setting of the storage rate is in the hands of the board of grain commissioners. They set the maximum rate that any elevator company can charge, but there is nothing to prevent any elevator company from cutting the rate as low as they like. In western Canada we have three large farmer-owned elevator companies, the Saskatchewan pool, the Manitoba pool and the Alberta pool. There is nothing in the world to prevent these companies from cutting the rate to one one-hundredth of a cent a day if they want to. They are the farmers' own companies; they are storing the farmers' own wheat, and if they think the storage rate is too high why do they not cut it? Then every other company operating in western Canada would have to do the same thing. Yet they say-in fact Mr. Weston himself said-that they thought the rate was not too high. In these times when the elevators are filled to the roof I think it is too high. We have a company like the Saskatchewan pool that started to operate with 312,000,000 odd that they had taken from or that was subscribed by the farmers of western Canada, deductions as it is called, and 36,000,000 odd taken from them for reserve, making between $18,000,000 and $19,000,000. Last year they had a profit of nearly $3,000,000-


George Hugh Castleden: Paid back to the farmer.


James J. Donnelly: No, it was not. I will tell the hon. member what was done with it. They made nearly 33,000,000, between 14 and 15 per cent interest on their money, and this is what they did with some of it. They decided to set aside or pay as dividends 3900,000, but this is the way they paid it; they paid 3450,000 as a patronage dividend, half a cent a bushel to all the people who had put wheat in the elevator. They took
3450,000	to buy back their capital stock. Then they went to the widows and orphans; they went to the estates. They did not go to men who were living. I own some stock; thej' have taken some money from me and I cannot get a dollar back, though when I die my estate can get some of it. They went to the widows and orphans and said, "We will pay you 60 cents on the dollar for your stock." That was what they used the other $450,000 for, to buy up this stock. In other w'ords, they took $900,000, of which they used $450,000
Supply-Trade and Commerce

to pay patronage dividends and $450,000 to buy up this capital stock at 60 cents on the dollar. Last year they paid only 50 cents on the dollar; the year before that, it was 40 cents. They are getting better; it is 60 cents now. But the man who put up the money for the capital stock, the man who made their existence possible, gets nothing at all unless he deals with them. That is the only way he can get anything; he must put his wheat in the elevator and be paid patronage dividends. I think in some twenty-five years time, if this thing goes on, all this capital stock will be bought up. Who will own it; who will have it?


Mr. WRIGHT:: Those who have patronized the elevators.


James J. Donnelly: Four or five men at the head will own it. Something should be done with this, just as something was done in connection with the Grain Growers Grain company not so long ago. If this farmers' organization wants to cut the storage rate and say it is too high, that is all right; that is what should be done.


Mr. GOLDING:: And the rest will have to follow.


James J. Donnelly: Yes.


Thomas Vien: I should like to point out to the committee that the details of this item are given on page 202 of the estimates. I did not know how far this discussion would go when I allowed it to begin, but it is now very far afield from the matter before the committee. At page 202 hon. members will find the expenses covered by this item. Under the rules we should discuss only these particulars.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I submit with all respect, Mr. Chairman, that it is rather late to make that discovery. The hon. member for Wood Mountain has been allowed to libel an organization whose shoe-laces he is unworthy to unloose.


Thomas Vien: There is a saying,
"better late than never", and I must determine where to draw the line. In my opinion it is here and now that it should be drawn.


Percy Ellis Wright: The hon. member for
Wood Mountain has made a deliberate misrepresentation of the men who are at the head of one of the largest organizations in western Canada.


Thomas Vien: The remark just made by the hon. gentleman shows that if the discussion were allowed to continue it would
[Mr. Donnelly. 1
develop into a general discussion of wheat conditions, elevator conditions and a number of other questions quite foreign to the item now before the committee.


James J. Donnelly: I object to the statement that I deliberately misrepresented the position.


Thomas Vien: I did not hear that.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It is true.


Thomas Vien: Did the hon. gentleman say that the hon. member for Wood Mountain had deliberately misrepresented the facts?


Percy Ellis Wright: Yes, Mr. Chairman; I did make that statement.


Thomas Vien: If the hon. gentleman made it, I did not hear it. Will he please withdraw it?


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: He will prove it if you give him a chance.


Thomas Vien: I must rule that the hon. gentleman must withdraw the statement.


Percy Ellis Wright: I have no alternative, but if you give me the time I can prove it.


Thomas Vien: That is not enough.
Will the hon. gentleman withdraw the statement?


Percy Ellis Wright: I will withdraw the word "deliberately".


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Chairman, I saw this developing and did my very best to head it off. I should like to get back to the item, which stood until after eight o'clock in order that we might bring down some information on one point. There has been no objection to giving all the information which has been requested, and we have tried to make our answers as complete as possible.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I asked the minister a question before we got around to allowing the hon. member for Wood Mountain to hide behind the skirts-


Thomas Vien: Order. Any question must be limited to the items of expense detailed on page 202.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is correct; that is what I am asking, whether any consideration has been given by the board of grain commissioners to the question of reducing storage rates, in view of the fact that these terminal elevators are filled during the greater part of the year.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James J. Donnelly: The hon. member for Weyburn says I have been, hiding behind the Chair in order to get away with something.
I ask him to withdraw.


Thomas Vien: Is that the statement that was made?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I could not hear the hon. member for Wood Mountain.


Thomas Vien: Will the hon. gentleman repeat the statement he made?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Which statement, Mr. Chairman?


Thomas Vien: The statement which he just made.


James J. Donnelly: The hon. member for Weyburn said I was hiding behind the Chair.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, he did not; he said the hon. member for Wood Mountain was hiding behind your skirts, Mr. Chairman.


Thomas Vien: The point of order is raised that the hon. member for Weyburn stated that the hon. member for Wood Mountain was hiding behind the Chair. Is that correct, or is it not?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is not correct. The statement I made was that I was asking a question just before the hon. member for Wood Mountain sought to hide behind the skirts of the wheat pool on this question of storage rates.


Thomas Vien: Even that is offensive,
and I ask that it be withdrawn.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Then I will
ask the question. Has the board of grain commissioners given any consideration to the possibility of reducing these storage rates, particularly in the case of these terminal elevators which are full during the greater part of the year?


James Angus MacKinnon: Last year it was thought advisable to increase to a great extent the elevator storage space at the head of the lakes, and arrangements were made for the construction of extra storage capacity to the extent of 50,000,000 bushels. In order to get the elevator companies to construct that storage space, rates were frozen for two years. The present rates, under agreement, are to continue until July, 1943.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister said the rates were frozen. Is that a correct statement? Is it quite accurate to say they were frozen, or is it a maximum rate?


John Gordon Ross: A maximum
rate.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
quite different. I will admit that quite probably the fixing of a maximum rate had the effect of freezing it, but it is not quite accurate to say rates were frozen. Does the minister not think the time has come when the rates should be revised, now that all these lean-to's have been paid for out of depreciation, or will be paid for this year, and the cream will begin to appear in the can in pretty substantial measure?


John Gordon Ross: For the Minister of Finance.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I admit
that the country is going to get a good deal of it back and that is a saving feature of the whole proposition. But it all comes out of the farmer in the end, and I think the time has come when the whole position should be reviewed. I do not know enough about the matter to say whether or not the maximum is too high, but that is the representation I have heard frequently.


James Angus MacKinnon: I
shall be glad to discuss it with the officials.


John George Diefenbaker: In connection with this matter of rates I think the return to which I referred a short time ago tells the story very clearly. It refers to the rental of various elevators to which I have made reference.


Thomas Vien: Order. I do not believe the question of rates can be dealt with now. These rates are under the control of the grain commission and there is nothing before the committee in relation thereto. This item covers an amount of $373,002, the details of which are on page 202. Nothing therein is capable of justifying a discussion on elevator rates, whether such rates are adequate or unreasonable. These rates are fixed by the grain commissioners.


Richard Burpee Hanson: With all due respect, the grain rates, as I understand it, are fixed by the board of grain commissioners. That is part of their prerogative. Therefore the fixing of rates is germane to any discussion in connection with the operation of the grain act. Surely there is no doubt about that. I would ask you, Mr. Chairman, to be good enough to review your decision. I believe I am right in what I say; otherwise I would not rise.


Thomas Vien: If the discussion is to be limited, I am willing to allow some latitude, particularly in view of the rapidity with which we disposed of several items. But I am limited, however, under standing order 58 (2).

Supply-Trade and Commerce


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman,
possibly from this angle you might permit it to be discussed, having regard to the expenditures referred to at page 202 of the estimates, and made by the Canadian government elevators. If the government had made the same expenditures in the other elevators it owns, then there would have been a very large saving which would have been passed back to the farmers of Canada.
So that in that connection I think it is proper for me to deal with the record in so far as these other companies are concerned. Two of the elevators with which I first deal are in Vancouver, namely No. 1 and No. 1 annex. They are rented by the government to Pacific Elevators Limited. In each of the years 1940 and 1941 the total rental was $92,460 a year. That is what the government got for the rental of those elevators. This company was paid storage, mainly by the government, for the season 1940-41 of $388,310.06. In other words it was paid almost $300,000 more for the storage of government wheat than the government was paid for the rental of the place.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Is my hon. friend suggesting that the $300,000 was profit?


John George Diefenbaker: No. The record is shown at page 202-just what it cost to operate these elevators. This is just the point I am making. The figures are set out for all the Canadian government elevators, including equipment. There are total expenditures. The estimated expenditures for the year 1942-43 are only $373,002.


Clarence Decatur Howe: But the hon. member is comparing an interior elevator with a port terminal elevator, and they are totally different.


William Henry Golding: I suggest the hon. member ought to be fair with the committee, because this, matter was all threshed out in the committee on agriculture, and it does not come under this item at all.


John George Diefenbaker: No, it was not.


Robert Fair: This seems to be the other half of the big stick we had in the committee on agriculture. I do not think it should be allowed. If the grain trade is allowed to have its mouthpiece here, then certainly the wheat pools ought to have their mouthpiece, too. No one has any right to let the hon. member for Wood Mountain proceed as he did to-night without having some representative of the pools to come back and tell him where he is wrong. Some .people have a habit of burying
[Tile Chairman.]
their mistakes, but the one made by the hon. member for Wood Mountain cannot be buried; it is incorrect.


Thomas Vien: The application of
standing order 58 (2), would not allow this discussion. I have given some latitude, hoping that this debate would not develop into a general discussion of the grain elevator situation in western Canada, or the administration of the Canada Grain Act by the grain board. If objection is taken I must rule that a discussion of elevator rates under item 350 is out of order.


John George Diefenbaker: But I am not discussing rates. I am discussing the unfairness and impropriety of the government of Canada turning over government facilities owned by the people of Canada to private individuals on terms such as I have indicated.


Thomas Vien: The minister has
already answered that the government was bound by leases, and that the matter would be considered at the expiration of the said leases. It is not proper to repeat the same argument. The minister has stated his position. The proper way of testing the sentiment of the committee is by a division.


John George Diefenbaker: With all due deference to you, Mr. Chairman, I have not dealt with this case before. The case to which the minister referred was the Port Arthur elevator. And in view of his statement on that I passed on to deal with two or three other instances, equally flagrant, which have not yet been dealt with.


James Angus MacKinnon: But they do not come under this item.


John George Diefenbaker: They come under the principle, and that is what I am talking about-nothing else.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend can discuss elevators when we reach the estimate for harbour boards.


James J. Donnelly: What profits are made out of the operating elevators at Edmonton and Calgary, as compared with the $92,460 they got from rent for the Vancouver elevator?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister told us that a while ago.


James J. Donnelly: Tell us again, then.


Angus MacInnis: That is repetition.


James Angus MacKinnon: It is on the record.


James J. Donnelly: How much is it?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister gave that information earlier.


George Hugh Castleden: How is it that the elevator at Saskatoon with a capacity of
5.500,000	bushels can turn in a revenue of 8223,121, whereas the one at Calgary with a capacity of only 2,500,000 bushels can turn in only one-tenth of that amount, or about $22,000. Is there something in the administration which will explain that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is a brilliant question. It depends on the amount of grain you put in.


James Angus MacKinnon: It depends entirely on the amount of grain put through the elevator.


George Hugh Castleden: There is no shortage of grain. We are short of space in this country.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps as an old elevator man I can explain that. There are two elements of earning power in an elevator. One is the handling or turn-over of the elevator, and the other is the storage. In some years there is a big turn-over, and then the bulk of the earnings come from that turn-over. If there is a small handling but a continuous storage, as there is at the present time, the bulk of earnings come from storage. The Saskatoon elevator would have handling charges of five and a half million bushels, plus storage charges. That is, the large storage capacity would swell both elements. On the other hand, the Calgary elevator would have almost the same operating charges as the bigger elevator and would have very much smaller handling on account of the smaller storage. You have to off-set your operating cost against earnings before you get the net.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council.
SG0. Salaries and other expenses of the national research council, $857,743.
James Angus MacKinnon: I would reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) this afternoon by saying that the national research council was engaged on certain preliminary investigations in connection with the production of magnesium metal before the Dominion Magnesium company came into the picture. None of the work up to that time resulted in a patent. Subsequently, Dominion Magnesium entered into an agreement with the council to have the work undertaken on its behalf and its cost, plus 50 per cent overhead on the actual cost. Certain patents then developed. If these prove to be as valuable as is expected, a further sum of $30,000 will be paid by the company under their agreement with the council.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I wish to know if all the preliminary expenses, of which there would be many, because there was a lot of travelling, and perhaps a heavy purchase of materials, were connected with the producing of that process which afterwards was patented by employees who had been in the government service. What I wish to know is, what did the government get out of the expenditure of time and money by these gentlemen who were engaged in the government service if they took with them-I do not know that they did;
I am asking for information-any discoveries they made while they were in the government service?


James Angus MacKinnon: I think I have pretty well covered in my statement the hon. gentleman's question. The entire outlay, plus 50 per cent, was reimbursed to*the national research council.


John Ritchie MacNicol: By whom?


James Angus MacKinnon: By the company, Dominion Magnesium.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where did they get the money? They are not producing and may not be for another year.


James Angus MacKinnon: Furthermore, the contribution of the national research council has been largely to assist in the development of a new process for the production of magnesium metal and in the establishment of a new industry. It is a war development.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Does the
minister mean that the national research council may perfect a certain technique for producing a commodity like magnesium metal and then sell it to a private industry? Is that what is done?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is exactly what has been done in this case. The national research council have carried their experiments forward and have made an arrangement with Dominion Magnesium, which is taking over further developments and paying the whole cost of the work that has been done, plus a sum of money by way of compensation provided the development turns out as expected.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It seems
strange to me that the people of Canada should spend money on experiments to perfect a certain technique, which, when perfected, is turned over to private industry. If it had been a failure and nothing had come of it, the people of Canada would have been out the money, but if the experiments succeed, the process is turned over to private
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industry to develop. Does the dominion government never patent any of these discoveries in its own name?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am advised that if the work is done at public cost, the national research council holds the patent in all cases, but if it is done at the cost of an industry, the patent belongs to that industry subject to any payment that is agreed upon to be made to the research council.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is magnesium metal, and not magnesium, that we are talking about, because magnesium, which is used in flares and explosives, has been produced for years and years, and magnesium metal is something altogether different. Does the minister know whether these gentlemen who were working in the national research laboratories, in the government service, and who evolved some process for making magnesium metal, are now planning to produce magnesium metal?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am afraid I cannot answer that.


Percy Ellis Wright: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: The only thing wrong is the information that is being used here to-night by my hon. friend. I happen to be familiar with the situation because I have been handling the dealings with Dominion Magnesium. Our solicitors examined the position very carefully and the facts, as explained to me, are that our research laboratories had been studying for many years the thermal process for producing magnesium metal. There were several thermal processes for producing magnesium metal. One was developed in Germany before the war; another process was tested out in Britain, and still another process was used in the United States government plant at Permanante on which many millions of dollars have been expended. The latter is using still another thermal process, and has not yet produced magnesium metal there. While all this was going on our own laboratories were studying the problem from the days when General McNaughton was the active head of the research council. He was very much interested in developing a thermal process of his own. He carried on experiments with his normal appropiations and got to the point where money was going to be required to test out the process, in order to determine whether his process was better than the others. He went to a group of mining men and suggested that they should put up the money. They did so. It amounted to some $60,000, as I remember it, and these men built a pilot plant. They brought in experts from the United States with practical knowledge of similar processes. A famous firm of consulting engineers from New York, specialists in zinc smelting, were called in, and the group built a full-scale model plant and brought the process up to where they believed they had something to patent. The group then took out patents under an agreement with the research laboratories by which they paid back to the research laboratories all the cost of the experiments. Dominion Magnesium then owned the patent. We decided, after a very careful examination, that we must make magnesium metal, and preliminary negotiations were undertaken to build a plant using the Dow chemical process. We found that the capital costs, and the time of construction, were to exceed our estimate. After we got the project well launched, we decided that we had better have another look at the thermal process, the so-called Pidgeon

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process. By that time the data on a considerable run on the pilot model was available, and we decided to drop the Dow process in favour of the Pidgeon thermal process.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Which pilot model?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The pilot model built by
Dominion Magnesium.


John Ritchie MacNicol: For which project?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Pidgeon project, the local laboratory process.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They had not done
anything with the Dow process, had they?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is, of course, a well-established process.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I know.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We decided we wanted to build a plant using the Pidgeon process. We called in a group from Dominion Magnesium, Limited. We told them, "We want your process. We are going to build a government plant. We want your help and the technical experience that you have gained." The group said, "What about terms?" We simply said, "We are not going to pay you a royalty. We want your process. Also we want you to take this job on at a dollar a year. We will pay your out-of-pocket expenses, and we want you to contribute your patents. If the full-scale plant turns out as well as your pilot plant, you will have a proven process. That must be your reward. We will pay you nothing." We proceeded to build the plant under the technical supervision of the engineers of Dominion Magnesium, Limited. The quarry is ours; the plant is ours, and the land it stands on is ours. The plant was not built by the Dominion Magnesium company; it was built by a crown company the name of which I am not sure enough of to state here.


James Joseph McCann: Wartime Metals.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I think it is Wartime Metals. As I say, as regards profiting from the patent as far as any Canadian operations are concerned, no profit will accrue to Dominion Magnesium, Limited. However, while this was going on, the United States decided that the process would be used there. I am informed that the Permanante plant is being changed over to the Pidgeon process. I think one or two other plants also are being built by the Pidgeon process, and I assume, while I am not familiar with the facts, that Dominion Magnesium, Limited will obtain royalties from plants being built in the United States.


Percy Ellis Wright: Would the government own all the quarries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Percy Ellis Wright: In a letter in a return
which was tabled under my name, Dominion Magnesium, Limited refers to "our" quarry, and I took it from the statement there that they, rather than the government, owned the quarry.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that the quarries, everything in the area of the development, and as far as I know, everything that is being used to make magnesium metal in Canada is owned by the crown to-day.	.


Percy Ellis Wright: What is the agreement
with the government with regard to the disposition of the property at the conclusion of the war?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no agreement. The property belongs to the crown.


Percy Ellis Wright: That is not according to the letter which was tabled in my name.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think the agreement has
been tabled. If not, I will table it to-morrow morning. I will make inquiries and table it before the end of the session.


Percy Ellis Wright: It was in this agreement
that if the government disposed of the property, Dominion Magnesium, Limited, would have the first chance to buy it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That may be so. I daresay
it is.


Percy Ellis Wright: That is definitely in the
agreement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think that is true.


John Ritchie MacNicol: By next year would the
minister give us the amount of money which was returned to the national research council? I have forgotten how much the minister of munitions said Dominion Magnesium had returned. Also, I should like to know what the government calculated had been spent by the national research council on its part in developing the process.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: This afternoon we
passed an item to provide $22,950,000 for wheat acreage reduction. Last year we spent $35,000,000 for wheat acreage reduction. That is, a total of $57,000,000 was expended for not growing wheat. Could the minister make some statement as to the research work which

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has been carried on by the national research council with a view to finding other uses to which wheat may be put?


James Angus MacKinnon: Work at the national research council is being continued on a limited scale on earlier projects concerned with the nature of quality. This is being carried on in the western laboratories, and only to an extent that will preserve valuable material developed in the past. Second, studies in the fermentation of wheat and other starchy agricultural products for the production of chemicals useful in war industries, that is, anti-freeze, solvents, and intermediates for the production of synthetic rubber. Greatest emphasis is being placed on the last. Development of mechanical methods for the separation of starch and gluten in wheat by mechanical means: (a) with the object of developing commercially practicable methods for the extraction of relatively starch-free gluten suitable for the manufacture of plastics; work is under way on plasticization of these products; (b) the preparation of starches of suitable purity for various industrial uses, to replace cornstarch, which has been imported in part in the past.
This is just a brief reference to the work which is being carried on by the national research council on the subject mentioned by the hon. member.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Could the minister
give any indication as to the quantities of wheat which might be used each year in connection with the developments that he has mentioned?


James Angus MacKinnon: The studies have not proceeded far enough to enable us to arrive at any accurate estimate, or even an approximate estimate.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Could the minister
give some idea of the amount of money that is being spent on this particular type of research work?


James Angus MacKinnon: I
do not think those figures are available here to-night. They can be easily obtained. I shall be glad to obtain them for the hon. gentleman.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: It seems that if we are spending $57,000,000 without any idea of solving this problem, a good deal might be spent in connection with research work along the lines the minister has suggested here.


Robert Fair: Is the research council still investigating the possibilities of the Pogue

carburettor, and, if so, what progress has been made since the last statement was made to the house?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am advised that it is not under investigation at the present time.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What is the revenue of the national research council?


James Angus MacKinnon: The total revenue is $1,244,508.74.


Mr. QUELCH:: Is it not true that a plant has been opened at Sarnia for the purpose of making rubber from wheat? I understood one of the ministers to say that the other night.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The government is building a plant at Sarnia to make synthetic rubber. The base is a petroleum base, but a certain percentage of alcohol is also used. It is a process which uses both petroleum, and alcohol, made from wheat or some other suitable product. Of course, alcohol is made from many products, but wheat is about the cheapest source of industrial alcohol to-day, though in normal times molasses is a cheaper raw product. We expect to use the product of two or three distilleries, together with certain components of petroleum, as the base of synthetic rubber.


Victor Quelch: How much wheat will be used in a year when the plant is in full production?


Clarence Decatur Howe: So long as wheat is used as a source of alcohol, it promises to use something less than 10,000,000 bushels a year.


George Hugh Castleden: I have received inquiries with regard to the use of milkweed and dandelions. Does the research laboratory do anything in connection with developing synthetic rubber from these plants? One inquiry came also from the coast with regard to the use of fish. This correspondent maintains that fish was used in a process out there some years ago, and he wants to know whether the government knows anything about it.


James Angus MacKinnon: We have no information in that respect, regarding fish, but so far as milkweed is concerned, the national research council has given a small grant for experimental work.


George Hugh Castleden: What about dandelions?


James Angus MacKinnon: Not dandelions but milkweed.
. Mr. CASTLEDEN: Nothing has been done in connection with dandelions?


James Angus MacKinnon: No.

Sup-ply-Mines and Resources


Joseph William Noseworthy: To whom is the grant given, and where is that experiment being carried on?


James Angus MacKinnon: The grant was given to Professor Duff of the university of Toronto.


Robert Fair: Is the research council doing any work in connection with carburettors in the saving of gasoline?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am not sure.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister stated that the company which developed the Pidgeon process had paid for the development of that process itself. I have here the minutes of the privy council, and I find:
That the company will build the plant at cost and without profit but will be paid the sum of $41,500 to cover its costs heretofore incurred in the development of the Pidgeon process. Included in the cost (but not in the $41,500 above-mentioned) will be certain commitments and sums already incurred or paid by the company for the purposes of construction of a magnesium plant, not exceeding however the sum of $12,000; the benefits of such commitments and expenditures shall be used for the construction of the initial plant.
It appears from this that the company are to be reimbursed for their expenditures in connection with the development of the process.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have forgotten the details, but I think that applies to a certain pilot plant which was built to develop the process actually being used in our plant. I think we paid for building a full-scale unit, using tubes and furnaces of the size we intended to install in the new plant. The $41,000 certainly does not cover all costs incurred by the company in developing the process.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mines and geology branch.
123. Branch administration, $29,600.
George Hugh Castleden: Is the motor car allowance still granted to ministers?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If the hon. member will look at the top of page 20 of the estimates he will find, "Minister of Mines and Resources- salary and motor car allowance, $12,000".


George Hugh Castleden: There is no change?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: For a year or more I believe the department has been trying to get aluminum out of nepheline. Does the minister know anything about this?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am advised that the work is being carried on with some little promise, but it has not yet reached the stage where one can say there are any direct results.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Bureau of geology and topography.
128. Geological surveys, $274,500.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: What type of geological surveys is the department providing for?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are thirty-eight or forty parties out on geological surveys looking for oil, and some for strategic minerals. In the latter category I include base metals.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What qualifications must one have to go out on these surveys?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Geological parties are
headed by trained geologists, men who have standing and experience. We aim to provide in each of these parties students from the universities in Canada who are taking courses in either geology or mining engineering, and below these are ordinary labourers who can do that part of the work.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They are school and college boys too, are they?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would not say they are in all eases. I am told that in some cases they are student assistants. Perhaps I might qualify my reply. The information I have is that these parties are made up practically altogether of students taking geology or mining engineering, and other students.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Does the government receive any revenue as a result of these surveys?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would refer my hon.
friend and other hon. members to the annual report of the department. On page 8 of the report for the year ended March 31, 1941, will be found a summary of the revenue from each branch, and the expenditures. The revenue for the whole Department of Mines and Resources for the fiscal year ended March 31. 1941, was $953,081.11. For the year ended March 31, last, the revenue was $1,065,056.53. For the year ended March 31, 1941, the revenue from the mines and geology branch was $13,385.62.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The revenue represents a very small percentage of the expenditure. If the government is going to spend these large sums year after year, the time has come that we should consider getting some revenue. When we go to the expense of sending parties out to find where oil might

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be located, the logical thing would be to develop some of these fields and obtain some revenue. The same thing applies to minerals. With an expenditure of over a million dollars and the revenue mentioned, the picture is not satisfactory.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend will realize that the resources are not under federal control. In Alberta, for example, we are sending geological parties to search for oil formations and gather geological data as to the oil possibilities. The same is true of many other minerals. It is a service that has been rendered from the beginning, just the same as land surveys in western Canada. In the early years of that part of Canada survey parties were sent out at considerable public expense to survey the country into townships and sections, but it was never made a charge against the land in the way my hon. friend suggests might be done here. In these uncertain times and the days that lie ahead, possibly some method may be found of doing that. But at present this department-speaking more seriously-is devoted to sending out geological parties to study geological formations as a lead for prospectors. A good deal of expense is devoted to laboratory work in Ottawa in testing ores and minerals and that sort of thing. I might put it in a more practical way by saying that the mineral production in Canada last year was about 8560,000,000. If governments in the past had not spent money in acquiring geological data as to the mineral possibilities of the country, I think we would not have had more than a small fraction of the development that has taken place.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: But if the government had developed some of these valuable deposits, when one thinks of the large fortunes made by some of the oil and mining companies it seems to me there is a tremendous source of revenue available in that field for the minister's department.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can assure my hon. friend that much more money has been lost in developing mines and oil fields than has been made in developing them. I can also say definitely that as long as I am Minister of Mines and Resources in Canada I shall never recommend that the government go into the business of developing mines. It may be that when my hon. friends come into power, if they ever reach that golden goal, they can carry on such experiments. But I will make the prediction right now that if they were to come into power inside of five years, they would not embark on that kind of experiment.


Charles Edward Johnston: I do not
know that I can agree with the minister's statement that there has never been any money made in oil when I think of Standard Oil and similar companies.


An hon. MEMBER:: And International
Nickel.


Charles Edward Johnston: Under this item has any money been spent in connection with the development of tar sands in northern Alberta ?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Any money spent at the
present time is, I understand, being taken out of the war appropriation, with a view to finding oil, of which as hon. members know there is considerable scarcity. If we go back a number of years, perhaps twenty, about $200,000 have been spent since then on what might be called experimental work on the possibilities of these tar sands, not so much from the oil point of view as from the point of view of getting information as to the usefulness of the tar as road material.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is
pretty well established.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. Some was taken out and a road paved at Jasper, and I think some pavement was laid in Edmonton.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes, on the road to Fort Saskatchewan.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That was experimental.
Apart from that the federal government has not spent money through the Department of Mines and Resources in developing the oil possibilities of these sands.


Charles Edward Johnston: Does this exploration work come under the minister's department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is under the mines and geology branch under the vote we are now considering.


George Hugh Castleden: Supposing in the course of a survey one of the minister's parties comes across a fine deposit of magnesium rock or aluminum or nickel what is done with that information? How is it made available to the public and these beneficiaries who want to lose so much money in developing it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is made available through the reports of the geologist in charge of the party. He reports to the department.


George Hugh Castleden: Are the departmental
reports available periodically?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Certainly.

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Joseph William Noseworthy: At page 109 of the estimates there is reference to a fuels division and to investigators. Is anything being done at the present time by way of experiments in the low temperature distillation of coal, in view of the gas shortage in western Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If I understood my hon. friend aright, he was inquiring whether or not experimental work was being carried on in the production of oil from coal?


Joseph William Noseworthy: The low temperature distillation of coal for oil and other distillates.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am advised that the department has carried on very little experimental work for the purpose of getting oil.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Bureau of geology and topography.
ISO. Drafting and map reproduction, $115,600.
John Ritchie MacNicol: The map branch of the department certainly deserves the unstinted praise not only of this house but of the whole country for the very excellent maps it has been getting out, particularly those which are used so much by the air force and the commercial air companies. I wonder just how they could get along to-day without these wonderful maps, and I for one feel it my duty to compliment the department upon having such an efficient staff of map cartographers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch.
132. Branch administration, $21,250.
Mr. McILRAITH:: I should like to raise one point in connection with this item. The prevailing rate employees in this branch of the service are not given annual holidays, though the prevailing rate employees in the mines and geology branch are given these holidays. The answer usually given when this matter is raised is that it would increase the cost of personnel in the branch, which is contrary to policy at this time. With all deference I submit that this answer is quite unsound. I am quite sure that if the prevailing rate employees were given the usual two weeks holidays, they would more than make up for it during the rest of the year in the added work they would do. I also submit that it is quite unreasonable to have this anomalous position in the department, that employees in one branch do receive this benefit, while the same class of employees in another branch do not receive it. I hope the minister will take steps to make sure that these holidays are granted to employees of this class in future.
There is one other matter with respect to these men which I should like to mention now for the consideration of the minister; that is, the question of making available to all prevailing rate employees the benefits of the superannuation act. That is a somewhat more technical problem, but I think it should receive the attention of the minister.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am glad the hon. member has raised these points, which will receive my earnest consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the Northwest Territories.
134. Eastern arctic expedition, $47,885.
Joseph William Noseworthy: The details of this item appear on page 115. Would the minister tell us something of what is involved in connection with this eastern arctic expedition?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The eastern arctic expedition might be described in this way. The government have a good many services, such as police, meteorological, and health, in both the western and eastern arctic. The eastern arctic is serviced every year by an expedition on the steamship Nascopie, which is chartered under an arrangement with the Hudson Bay company, under which for certain remuneration they undertake to transport the people and the goods or materials we need to send in to the arctic. Very often people go in to stay for a few years, while others come out, and we make this arrangement because the government has no boat of its own and, if it had a boat, it would cost a great deal more than this arrangement costs. That is the explanation of this item.


Thomas Langton Church: The eastern arctic expedition had better be careful this summer, or they may be captured by the axis.


George Hugh Castleden: I notice that last year there was an item of $25,000 for chartering the boat, while apparently the department is not chartering one this year, though I see an item of $11,000 for travelling expenses. What is the change in the arrangement?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are higher costs of operation than in an ordinary year; more material and more people are being sent in, and consequently the volume of business the government requires to have done has increased considerably. That is the ref ion for the increase over an ordinary year.


George Hugh Castleden: But the cost is less this year. Last year a boat was chartered for $25,000, and there is no such item this year; there is just $11,000 for travelling expenses.

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last year two years' freight was taken in; one year's reserve of freight and materials of all kinds was sent in, because it was thought that possibly the next year the boat might not be able to go in. That accounts for the extra expense last year, and is the reason for the reduction this year, though this year is costing more than in the years preceding last year. Last year two years' supplies went in, part of which was a reserve, which will be maintained.


George Hugh Castleden: The department is not chartering a boat this year, then?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Certainly; the boat goes in this year.


George Hugh Castleden: There is no item here to take care of the chartering of a boat.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is included in the item of $36,685, I think.


George Hugh Castleden: There is an item of $11,000 for travelling expenses, but no item for the chartering of a vessel, for which an amount of $25,000 was charged last year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is simply a different way of presenting the figures. The freight cost is included in the $36,000 item; the passenger costs are in the $11,000.


Thomas Langton Church: Who compose this expedition to the arctic circle? By whom are they appointed? Last Saturday the hon. member for Temiscouata was nominating a gentleman to be governor general of the north pole, in the person of one of our members over here. What is this expeditionary force doing? Is it doing exploring work, or war work, or what kind of work does it do? What is the object of a vote like this at a time when the tax rate is so very high? Could any economy be effected by letting it wait until after the war? There is no trouble around the north pole or the arctic circle, and I suggest that the item be reduced to one dollar.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We can scarcely do that, because for many years we have maintained Royal Canadian Mounted Police posts in the arctic. There are hospitals at several points, with medical officers; and there are missionaries in the far north. This expedition simply takes in supplies for all these purposes. As I pointed out a moment ago, two years ago it took in two years' supplies so that there would be one in reserve. It would be quite impossible to meet the suggestion of the hon. member for Broadview; and I believe if he reflects, he will see that that is so.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the government not have to send a boat up there to maintain its sovereignty over those arctic islands?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; that is a very important point which might be mentioned. The maintenance of our police posts and other services in the arctic does make clear our sovereignty in that part of north America.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion forest service.
138. Forest experiment stations, $44,743.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Are we still carrying on reforestation, in view of the fact that we are using so much wood these days?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Under this vote much of the work of the forest experimental stations is carried on. That is experimental work, of course.	[DOT]


George Hugh Castleden: Where are these experimental stations located?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is one at Kananaskis, Alberta, one at Riding Mountain, Manitoba, one at Petawawa, Ontario-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Chalk River.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -the Acadia station, near Fredericton, and one at Valcartier.


George Hugh Castleden: Is there one in British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have no forest experimental station in British Columbia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Land registry.
HI. Land registry, seed grain collections, administration of ordnance, admiralty, and public lands, $52,950.
Robert Fair: Would the minister explain the seed grain collections under this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is rather a doleful story, if it were considered in its entirety. Some of these advances go back for over fifty years, and, of course, the liens are not of .much value. I might add that in some cases in past years provincial authorities have given assistance. Boards have been set up in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba which pass upon these seed grain arrears. Where they think there is no possibility of recovery, it is written off. We are writing them off continuously.


Robert Fair: Are amounts collected under this seed grain vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are some collections being made, but not to any very great extent. It should be stated that these seed grain liens, as they were called, were a charge against the land which benefited from the seed

Supply-Mines and Resources
purchased. Consequently, when the owner of land later desires to sell, there is a cloud on the title until the lien can be cleared up. It cost very little to administer, and it is being gradually cleared up.


Robert Fair: What amounts were collected in the past year on those liens, and what total amount is owing under this heading?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total amount outstanding under this heading is over $6,000,000 in the three provinces. As I have said, some of that goes back over fifty years. A good deal of it was in 1914, and later on in the twenties. Collections last year were $16,990.


Robert Fair: Does any financial benefit
accrue to the dominion, or are administration costs greater than the amounts collected?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend should not get the idea that this vote is associated wholly with seed grain.


Robert Fair: I was not suggesting that at all.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are many other things. Perhaps I misunderstood my hon. friend.


Robert Fair: I was just wondering, because this seems to be just so much dead-wood. It is misleading, because I expect that this is included as an active asset in Canada. So far as I can see, it costs more to administer this particular branch than the government gets out of it each year. For my own information I was wondering whether the administration costs are greater than the collection in any one year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Administration costs are very small. As a matter of fact, we are a few thousand dollars-I cannot say how many -ahead each year in what we collect as compared with administration expenses. It might be all right to be generous and say that we will forget about the whole thing, That is becoming a common attitude with respect to obligations these days. However, I do not think it is a good attitude, morally.
The suggestion made by the hon. member is one which might be considered, and consideration will be given to it.	.


Robert Fair: I hope the consideration will be fruitful, because consideration is not good enough. My suggestion that this be written off is a good one, because, so far as I can see, we are keeping a lot of help in nonessential work, when they might be doing something much better and more productive from a financial point of view.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is nothing to that argument at all, because this work is done by one or two on the staff who have other addi-
44561-^3174
tional duties. This is only part of their duties. The expense is not as great, by some thousands of dollars, as the amount collected each year. Other functions come under this vote. There is, for instance, the conduct of a central office of record for lands owned or otherwise controlled by the Dominion of Canada. All the lands and properties of the dominion which are not in use are administered under this vote:-admiralty lands, ordnance lands, dominion-owned public lands, timber and grazing on soldier settlement lands and on military reserves. There is also the adjustment of seed grain, fodder, and relief indebtedness and the issuing of letters patent.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the item,
about admiralty?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is admiralty lands.


Robert Fair: Is it the policy of the government to send out collectors each fall, or does the department just write to the fanners who are in debt to the government for seed grain?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have no collectors
going out, and during the difficult years we did not even send out reminders, but people who might be owing a debt of 40 or 50 or 100 dollars which stood registered against their land would write in to us to pay off the debt and get the cloud removed from their land-Of course, unless all the liens were to be: written off en bloc, a service must be maintained in the department to look after the accounts.


Robert Fair: In what year were the last
advances for seed grain made? Was it 1900, 1920, or what year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it is almost twenty years since the last advances of this kind were: made by the federal government.


Mr. MARSHALL:: This is an item in
which I have been particularly interested for a number of years past. I opened up a correspondence with the officials of the Department of Mines and Resources with reference to outstanding seed grain liens, and I am going to suggest to the minister that his officials in preparing the annual report for the department deal with this question of seed grain in order that we may have a clear and comprehensive picture of the situation. Seed grain advances in the past were a joint responsibility of the provincial and dominion governments, and I understood that an agreement had been reached between the two governments to cancel a large amount of the seed grain advances which were outstanding and that only those made in recent years stood on the books to the credit of the dominion.
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government. If a part of the annual report were devoted to giving an account of seed grain advances, I believe members of the committee would be glad, and I certainly would, to get a clear picture of the situation as it was, say on March*31, 1942.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall be very glad to
give consideration to that suggestion.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National parks bureau.
Vt2. National parks and historic sites services, $1,218,000.
Thomas Langton Church: I would call the attention
of the minister to the lack of any adequate expenses by the dominion government over the past twenty years on national parks in Ontario. The government of Canada before and after confederation, made very large expenditures on the Rideau canal, the Trent canal, the Murray canal, linking up lake Simcoe, the Georgian bay, Muskoka, Parry Sound and on up to new Ontario into a great system of inland waterways over which the early explorers and settlers travelled in their * canoes and, later on, in steamboats. The government of Canada also spent a large sum on railways and other forms of transport and on power development. Money has been spent by the dominion government on national parks in other provinces, but we in Ontario have received very little value out of all the expenditure, although I admit that the minister :and those who preceded him have developed ;a splendid system of national parks across the country.
This vote also deals with historic sites. It is true that the dominion government has erected a tablet here and there in Ontario to commemorate some hero of the war of 1812, but in the Niagara district, all the way from lake Erie to lake Ontario, this work has been largely done by the government of Premier Hepburn of Ontario. That government has done a great deal of good work, especially in the Niagara district, in commemorating historic sites such as Fort George and Fort Mississauga. Ever since I entered this house in 1921 I have urged that money be spent in Ontario under this vote, but the government of Ontario have had to do it all. They even had to restore the home of William Lyon Mackenzie, below Queenston heights. The old province of Ontario needs some attention from this government in that regard. Many deputations have come to Ottawa urging that this work be done.
I see that this vote is increased by over $73,000, and from the details on page 119 I notice that the staff starts with a controller,

then an assistant controller, a superintendent, an executive assistant, a superintendent of historic sites, an inspector of national parks, clerks, stenographers, park superintendents, park wardens, electrician foreman, junior engineers, sanitary inspector, motion-picture projectionist, caretakers, cleaners and helpers, park medical officers, and then more on the next page. Altogether there is an increase of over $73,000.
So far as historic sites are concerned, the province of Ontario has had to do that largely by itself. I have raised this question many times in the house, and some of the members from new Ontario and Muskoka and Parry Sound have also mentioned it. This department has done very good work both under this government and the one before, but I do ask the minister that something be done for Ontario. I do ask that something be done with all that waste property which the government has in the Rideau lakes, the Georgian bay and the Newmarket canal, away up in North York. They were going to have ocean liners up in North York in the days of 1896, then on to lake Simcoe and Muskoka and Parry Sound, right along lake Ontario to the head of the lakes. I believe that these could be linked up into a magnificent system. If we are to continue spending money like this in war time, well and good, but do not forget that the province of Ontario contributes nearly 40 per cent of the cash taxes of the dominion and that it gets very little value for the money expended.
I should like some reply from the minister regarding this matter which I have raised before. I do not see why it should be left to the provincial authority to do this in Ontario, while the federal authorities spend money in the very same direction in some other provinces. Mr. Hepburn's government had to do this work, and I ask the minister if any progress may be reported so far as Ontario is concerned.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As my hon. friend stated, he has brought this matter up on one or two occasions when the estimates of the national parks were under consideration in committee of supply. There are a few small national park areas in Ontario. There are the Georgian bay islands park, Point Pelee park on lake Erie, and certain islands in the St. Lawrence river. There is something to be said for the point of view urged by the hon. member for Broadview. I am a believer in national parks. Some argument could be made for a national park in Ontario, but there are one or two considerations which have to be kept in mind. The first is that the area for a national park has to be ceded to the federal authority by the

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provincial authority. We have not purchased land anywhere for the establishment of national parks. In the second place, it is quite out of the question to consider developing the national park system in war time. I see the hon. member for Royal, who, I judge from the expression on his face, is going to raise the matter of a park in New Brunswick.


Mr. BROOKS:: The minister had better wait till I raise it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At any rate, the question of a park in New Brunswick was under consideration, as many hon. members know, and I dare say that, had it not been for the outbreak of war, that park would have been under development by now. With all the tremendous demands for expencjitures in connection with the war effort, I think it is quite out of the question to look for a development of new national parks at the present time.


Douglas King Hazen: Where would the minister put it in New Brunswick?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: One of the most difficult problems which this country will have to face will be the transition from a war-time to a peace-time economy. When that time comes, as it assuredly will, expenditures of this kind could well be undertaken, because work would be provided and materials required, and it would have generally the effect of helping to restore a peace-time economy.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Since the minister anticipated or thought he was anticipating my remarks, let me say I did intend to say something about the construction or development at some future date of a national park in New Brunswick. I would not be absurd enough to ask for it during the war, but I do not think the minister and his department can be relieved altogether of blame for there being no national park in New Brunswick. The matter was brought up several years before the war, at the time when a national park was mooted in the province of Nova Scotia and another in the province of Prince Edward Island. Both of these parks are now developed, and I believe they have been very successful.
As the minister says, the land is supposed to be ceded from the local government to the federal government. Four or five sites were looked over in New Brunswick. Probably the best was in my own constituency. I would have liked very much to see it developed at that time, and I believe that if the minister had taken as firm a stand as he should have taken, a park would have been constructed and developed in that province. I am glad the minister still has such a project in mind.
I hope that, when this war is over, he or his successor in office will still have it in mind and that a park will be developed in New Brunswick, which is the only province in the dominion without one.
The hon. member for Broadview speaks of Ontario paying 40 per cent of the revenue and not getting 40 per cent of the "profits". If the estimates of this house were gone through and a calculation made of what Ontario receives in the matter of parks and everything else, I believe there could be no question but that she is receiving her full share.
I am glad the minister has not forgotten
New Brunswick, and I hope he will make up in the future for his shortcomings in this respect.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister talks about a national park in the Georgian bay islands. It rather makes me smile, because all the national park that we have on the Georgian bay are islands which are owned by the dominion government and sold to people in Ontario whereby a revenue is returned to the dominion government. As far as fire protection or anything of the kind is concerned, there is nothing there; nobody looks after those islands. I think the minister is making a mistake in saying that we have that national park in Ontario.
I agree with the hon. member for Broadview. I think it is high time, or it was high time before the war-I would not think of it now-that the dominion government followed the Ontario government in the matter of national parks, and assumed some of the expense of supervision. The parks bring to the dominion a great deal of tourist revenue, and I think the dominion should relieve the province of some of the expense of taking care of them.


Douglas King Hazen: I understood the minister
to say that if the war had not intervened, a park would probably have been established by now in New Brunswick. Would the minister tell us where he planned to locate that park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend knows
perfectly well that the site of the park -was not fixed; the matter was still unsettled. I believe there are several very good prospective sites, but none has been definitely agreed upon.
May I say to the hon. member for St. Paul's that none of the islands which constitute the national park in Georgian bay has been
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sold. There are about thirty islands varying in size. Under the parks act we could not sell these islands without an act of parliament.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The dominion
government have been disposing of islands in the Georgian bay.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch.
11,1,. Grant to John Thomas (Jack) Miner, $2,500.
James Alexander Marshall: There is a notation at the foot of these items for lands, parks and forest branch. "Appropriations not required for 1942-43, $12,500." What particular vote does this cover, and what is the justification for placing this amount of $12,500 in the [DOT]estimates?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It represents certain items for which we have no comparable items this year.	.


James Alexander Marshall: I contend that should not be in there. It should be left out entirely, because it gives the impression that the estimates are reduced by $12,500 this year. That is not the situation, because that amount is not connected with any item as set forth in the estimates either for 1941-42 or for 1942-43. I contend that it should be left out completely.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sure that every
member of the house is in favour of this vote for Jack Miner and that everyone would like to see it doubled. I hope that when the time comes and there is money to spare, the minister will see that it is doubled or trebled. I know there is not another man in Canada who does for migratory birds what Jack Miner does at the Miner Sanctuary near the beautiful town of Kingsville, lake Erie. I have seen as many as 40,000 geese there at a time. They stop on their way to the north as well as on their flight to the south, and Jack Miner feeds them from ten to fourteen thousand bushels of com a year. He does this gladly with the best intentions for Canada, and it brings a great deal of revenue through tourists. A vast number of people visit the sanctuary.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A good many tourists.


John Ritchie MacNicol: 
Paul Joseph James Martin: A definite national asset.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cordially endorse everything the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) has said. I doubt if there is in any field of work in Canada anyone who is rendering greater national service than Mr. Miner. He is a naturalist. He loves nature, and everyone who comes in contact with his personality and operations benefits from them. I have no hesitation in saying that I should like to have seen the vote larger, and when better times come I hope it can be substantially increased, because I know Mr. Miner carries on his work at a great deal of personal financial sacrifice.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch.
l.'i5. Branch administration, $22,130.
Howard Charles Green: Has this branch anything to do with such things as the construction of the Alaska highway? Under the agreement between the United States and Canada there is certain supervisory work to be done by this country, and I should like to know if it is carried out by this branch. If not, who does it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is referring to the highway at present being built from the Peace River country to Alaska along the air route?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; we have nothing to do with the construction of that. Certain negotiations took place between the two governments, and certain agreements were reached. In that respect this department acted in an advisory capacity to the government here, that is to say, to External Affairs. The United States government is doing the work and providing the cost of equipment and manpower necessary for the construction. This government has to make arrangements for the

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right-of-way. We maintain on the road an officer of the department who is constantly in touch with the people building the road. He helps to adjust difficulties that may arise, which are very few indeed, along the route.


Howard Charles Green: Which branch of the department handles that supervisory work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The liaison officer is an engineer from the lands, parks and forests branch, one of our park engineers in the western parks.


Howard Charles Green: Under the agreement does Canada have any real check on the way that road is built or the type of road? It extends for many miles through Canada, and surely one man cannot do very effective checking. It seems to me that this will prove of great importance for the future. After all, it is a Canadian road; yet apparently the situation is that United States troops are building it, and the only interest Canada is taking in it is to have one engineer, not from the surveys and engineering branch, which is really the road building branch of this department, but from the parks branch, if you please. That does not seem to me a very sensible way to deal with the matter. The minister has a competent and experienced staff who have been doing mountain highway work for many years. Why should they not be used to check the building of this Alaska highway?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The road is being built by and wholly at the cost of the United States government.


Howard Charles Green: But it is a Canadian road.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: True, but it is being built by the United States. It is being built primarily to connect the airports in the event of heavy transport of planes. It is really a military road for the purposes of the present war. There is a definite agreement between the Canadian and United States governments covering not only the building of the road but its surrender to the Canadian government free of cost when the need for it has disappeared.


Howard Charles Green: In the agreement between the two governments I find this in paragraph 4 of the letter from Canada to the United States:
The Canadian government agrees . . . (f) to permit those in charge of the construction of the road to obtain timber, gravel and rock where such occurs on crown lands in the neighbourhood of the right of way, providing that the timber required shall be cut in accordance with the directions of the appropriate department of the government of the province in which it is located, or, in the case of dominion lands, in accordance with the directions of the appropriate department of the Canadian government.
Which would call for some Canadian supervision, surely. Then paragraph 5:
The Canadian government agrees to the suggestion that the practical details of the arrangement be worked out by direct contact between the appropriate government agencies subject, when desirable, to confirmation by subsequent exchange of notes.
Canada is in this position: there was a commission working for some years, composed of representatives from Canada and the United States. One of Canada's representatives was, I believe, the director of this very surveys and engineering branch. They spent several summers surveying possible routes for a highway to Alaska. Surely it would be sensible now, when the road is being built, for Canada to have some of these men who have had experience in connection with the Alaska highway put in charge of the checking that is to be done on behalf of the Canadian government. According to the minister's statement, however, there is only one man, one engineer, not from this branch at all but from the parks branch, posted on that road. This means that there is not adequate supervision by Canada. It means really that there is no supervision at all. I suggest that for our own sake, to see that the road is a proper road and that the difficulties are ironed out, and also to facilitate the work of the United States engineers, Canada should have men on that road from the surveys and engineering branch.


Thomas Langton Church: That is the defence board for you!


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The situation is not nearly as bad as my hon. friend would make out. In the first place, the timber and right of way referred to in the paragraph he read are matters under the control of the British Columbia government.


Howard Charles Green: Not in the Yukon. The road goes through the Yukon.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am speaking of the part that goes through British Columbia.


Howard Charles Green: I am speaking of the whole highway.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Yukon administration can look after any details there. The engineer we have sent is a competent engineer in the parks branch who used to be in the surveys and engineering branch, one of the old, experienced engineers of the government. He is not there to advise the United States engineers how they should build the road or where.


Howard Charles Green: I did not say advise; I said check.
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not even a matter of checking. We do not need to have him there as far as checking is concerned. We are not paying a cent for the construction of the road.


Howard Charles Green: Does the government not care what kind of road it is?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The United States government are building it for heavy transport. It may reasonably be expected that they will build a good road.


Howard Charles Green: Does the minister not think it would be wise to have some one check?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it will be a very good highway when completed. Our liaison officer is there to be available if any questions arise from day to day, perhaps a question of going through an Indian reserve or something of that kind. He is there to assist and keep in contact with the people building the road. The whole expense of this undertaking is being borne by the United States, and that being the situation we cannot very well say, You are spending only $10,000 a mile on a piece of the road; we think you should spend $15,000 a mile. We know the purpose for which the road is being built, and we believe they will build a good road.


Howard Charles Green: When the war is over, the highway is, I believe, to belong to Canada. Canada will then be responsible for maintenance and repairs and any alterations needed. Surely it would be only business-like for the Canadian government to have officials of its surveys and engineering branch there while the road is being constructed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think there would be any gain in that. The road is being built for a special purpose which requires that it be a good road. What shall be done with it when the war is over is a matter for the Canadian government of that day to settle. When that time comes, the cost of maintenance, if the road is going to be maintained, will, of course, be the concern of Canada. In the meantime, however, the road is being built, and the very purpose for which it is being built requires that it be a good road; otherwise it would not be undertaken. I do not think we need have any worry about what will happen on that account.


Howard Charles Green: The same situation arises with respect to other military highways being built through British Columbia. I do not know whether the dominion government is checking those highways, to see how they are built, but here you have a surveys and engineering branch, with men trained in mountain engineering, and I suggest that they
[Mr. Green.1
should be put on the job of supervising the construction of these military roads, for example the military road from Prince Rupert inland. Has the dominion government any officers checking that construction, or is it being left entirely to the contractors?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The road from Prince Rupert
is being constructed under the supervision of the surveys and engineering branch. That is Canada's responsibility; we are building that, and our surveys and engineering branch are looking after the construction. They are doing a very good job of it, too.


Howard Charles Green: I am sure they would; they are experienced men.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With regard to the Alaska highway, I do not think we should go in and impose conditions upon our United States friends who are building that road, beyond the understanding which was reached in the exchange of correspondence. Really I think my hon. friend's worries in that respect are largely groundless.


Howard Charles Green: Certainly the government do not seem to be worried very much about it, if they have only one man on a road hundreds of miles long, which to all intents and purposes is a Canadian road. I would ask the minister to go into that question again, and I suggest to him that he have engineers from this branch sent there.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: To do what?


Howard Charles Green: To check, while that road is being constructed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We shall have full reports on it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the department have men in there to check on the forests along the road so that they may not be destroyed but may be retained as a tourist attraction when the war is over? With all these men working on that road, a match is liable to be thrown aside and a great deal of timber burned.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no doubt the British Columbia government are looking after that. They gave the right of way through crown lands; they have the right to give permission to cut timber, and I have no doubt they have their men on the ground looking after that phase of the matter. Farther north, in the Yukon, we will do the same. I am bound to say that the United States government and those in charge of the construction of this highway are cooperating with Canada in the

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most friendly way, and as far as I am aware there has been no hitch or difficulty of any kind.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We happen to be allies.


Howard Charles Green: Oh, now, the hon. member need not talk like that. No one is questioning that at all.


Thomas Vien: Order. There is no discussion on that.


Howard Charles Green: I would ask the minister whether there is any plan in mind for connecting the Alaska highway with Prince George?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not heard of any. What does the hon. member mean by a highway?


Howard Charles Green: A connecting highway.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot say that I am aware of any plan of that kind. I do know that consideration is being given to the construction of a railway north from Prince George, which might connect with this highway.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister give us any information on that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Nothing more than I have just said.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch.
150. To provide lor the expenses incurred under the agreement between the dominion, Ontario and Manitoba confirmed by the Lac Seul Conservation Act, 1928, monies expended to be largely reimbursed, $17,800.
John Ritchie MacNicol: With regard to the conservation works west of the outlet of lac Seul, are there any private rights in connection with the canal which connects the east end of lac Seul, through the Root river, with lake St. Joseph? Are there any private rights there? Has the government surrendered its rights?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid we have no
information on that here. That is wholly within the province of Ontario. This vote arises out of the arrangement between Ontario, Manitoba and the federal government with regard to the development on the Winnipeg river, and the moneys are largely recoverable from the province of Manitoba under a charge made to the power companies.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The estimate says that
the moneys expended are to be largely reimbursed. Will that be from the provinces of Manitoba and Ontario to the federal government?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. Under the arrangement, the Manitoba government collects the rentals from the power companies on the river, and from those rentals reimburses us with regard to our expenditures.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is. the power companies in Manitoba?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The dam was originally
intended was it not, to provide a steady flow of water on the English river and the Winnipeg river, upon which latter river the Manitoba power plants are located?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, but the benefits from that dam came in the regulation of the flow of water down the Winnipeg river.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes, through the English
river down the Winnipeg river.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; of course that was a benefit to the power companies on the river, and under the arrangement the federal government is reimbursed. We acted really as a sort of agent in carrying out the undertaking.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Did the federal government contribute to the cost of building the dam west of lac Seul?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; I am told we did
contribute to the cost of the lac Seul dam, but I have not the amount at the moment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch.
152. To provide for general expenses of the committee as established under PC. 682, dated February 17, 1941, to report on the conservation of the waters of the St. Mary and Milk rivers, $500.
Mr. BLACKMORE:: May I say a word
or two with regard to the committee in connection with which this money had been provided. Hon. members were informed last year that there is an important area in southern Alberta which could be irrigated by utilizing the waters of two rivers, the St. Mary and Milk rivers, which are international streams rising in the United States and flowing across into Canada. As a consequence, both nations have a claim to the waters of those rivers. This St. Mary and Milk rivers water development committee was set up to investigate the whole question concerning the use of the waters of those two streams. May I read some of the findings of that body, from the report which it submitted officially in February, 1942. I read from page 3 of the report:
That the apportionment of the waters of the St. Mary and Milk rivers is governed by a treaty between Great Britain and the United

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States dated January 11, 1909, and is under the direction of the international joint commission.
2.	That a final order of the international joint commission dated October 4, 1921, provided definite rules for apportioning the waters and the application of priorities.
3.	That for the period 1922 to 1940 inclusive the share of the St. Mary and Milk rivers allocated to Canada under the 1921 order of the commission averaged: for the St. Mary river,
362.000	acre feet; Milk river, 40,000 acre feet.
4.	That during the period 1922 to 1940 Canada has constructed irrigation works capable of using on the average only 163,000 acre feet of its share of the St. Mary river, and not more than 2,000 acre feet of its share of the Milk river.
May I pause there .to comment. It is understood as one of the stipulations under the arrangement of October 4, 1921, that each nation was to make profitable use, or beneficial use, of its share of the water.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Is this a committee of the international joint commission?


John Horne Blackmore: I wish to point out the effect of that finding. Canada has fallen far short of her duty under the stipulations of the October 4, 1921, arrangement. By doing so, Canada has risked the loss of her share of the waters of the two rivers. The findings continue:
5.	That for the same period the share of the
St. Mary and Milk rivers allocated to the United States under the 1921 order of the international joint commission averaged:	St.
Mary river, 249,000 acre feet; Milk river,
75.000	acre feet.
6.	That as at 1940 and excepting unusually wet years, the United States has constructed storage and irrigation works capable of regulating and making available for use its entire share of the St. Mary and Milk rivers and these works are capable of storing in the United States the portion of Canada's share of the Milk river presently not used in Canada.
That is an exceedingly serious matter.


Paul Joseph James Martin: What is this committee?


John Horne Blackmore: The committee we are discussing was set up under order in council P.C. 682, dated February 17, 1941.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Why would this not be a matter for the international joint commission?


John Horne Blackmore: Well, supposing it is; it is a matter for the house to consider, too.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am wondering why there was a committee when we have the international joint commission.


John Horne Blackmore: The special committee was set up because there was great anxiety developing all through the area affected by this water conservation project, by reason of
[Mr. Blackmoiij
the fact that the people there knew that Canada was falling short of her duty, according to the order of October 4, 1921. The people in the area wanted the federal government to do something about the matter before it went too far. The result of the agitation and pressure was that this special committee was appointed to investigate the whole question. The committee has submitted its report, and I am reading the findings. They were tabled by the Minister of Mines and Resources in the spring. I hope that answers the hon. member's question.
May I go on to point out just how serious the matter is? Finding 6 states that the United States has provided storage facilities, as a result of the use of which she is able to store her full share and Canada's share also, while Canada has provided storage facilities to use only a very small portion of her share. This means that, according to the order of October 4, 1921, and earlier, Canada is in grave danger of losing her share of these valuable waters.
Paragraph 7 reads:
7.	That Canada should construct at an early date the necessary irrigation works to protect by beneficial use its share of the St. Mary and Milk rivers.
That point may I draw especially to the attention of the committee, namely that Canada should construct at an early date the necessary irrigation works to protect by beneficial use its share of the St. Mary and Milk rivers. Then follows paragraph 8:
8.	That there have been acute shortages in the water supply for existing projects served by the St. Mary river and that upon completion of the proposed St. Mary reservoir sufficient water would be available to supply these shortages and serve an additional area of 94,000 acres of new land.
The whole area affected lies in my constituency and in that of the hon. member for Medicine Hat. It therefore becomes my duty to bring this matter to the attention of the committee, so that it may realize the seriousness of the situation.
There are four full irrigation projects in my constituency, and those projects all suffer at times from shortage of water. That shortage would be overcome by the construction of the reservoirs proposed under the scheme known as the Lethbridge Southeast Water Conservation Project.


George Hugh Castleden: How many acres does it serve?


John Horne Blackmore: It would, when completed, serve 345,000 acres. But this project would, in addition, enable the supplying of all the lands which now are under irrigation,

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but which suffer from lack of water in time of drought. It would also service another
94,000	acres.


George Hugh Castleden: What is being supplied now?


John Horne Blackmore: I have not the figures before me.


Thomas Vien: I would point out that this matter was discussed on its merits when the committee was set up. Before the committee of supply at this time we have only an item of $500 for our share in the cost of the report on the conservation of water. There is before us only the question of expenses incurred for the purposes of the report. Therefore I believe it would not be in order to enter into a discussion of the merits or demerits of the matter.


John Horne Blackmore: Would you tell me, Mr. Chairman, under what item this may be
discussed?


Thomas Vien: When the report of the committee is before the house.


John Horne Blackmore: The report of the committee is now before the house. I have it here. It was tabled, and it is now a document before the house.


Thomas Vien: Has it been concurred in?


John Horne Blackmore: I am not sure whether it has been concurred in or not.


Thomas Vien: It is on the motion for concurrence in the report that the merits of the question would be discussed.


John Horne Blackmore: This report is not the work of a committee of this house; therefore no one could move concurrence in the report.


Thomas Vien: Any member of the committee could move concurrence in the report. What I have in mind is that this is not the proper place, in committee of supply when we are discussing an estimate providing $500 to defray costs of the report, to discuss the merits of the report. It has been referred to a special committee, and the committee has reported. Therefore, when concurrence in the report is moved, the merits can be discussed.


John Horne Blackmore: My point is that this report is the work of a special committee, not a committee of the house. Therefore the report was not submitted by a committee of the house, but rather by a special committee set up under order in council P.C. 682, under the department of the Minister of Mines and Resources. The report was submitted to the
minister, not to the house. Therefore, as I understand it, it would be impossible for anyone to move concurrence in the report. I am simply discussing the progress of the whole question of the Lethbridge Southeast Water Conservation Project.


Thomas Vien: I have no objection to giving latitude. If the hon. member has unanimous consent of the committee to put his views on record, I would have no objection. But it would be quite out of order to start a general discussion in supply on the merits of that report.


John Horne Blackmore: Would you give me
an idea, Mr. Chairman, where we could discuss this question? Here is a matter that could cause war; it could cause very serious loss to Canada; it ought to be discussed. If you will tell me where we can discuss it,
I shall gladly discuss it at that point.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Chairman, I have
no objection to my hon. friend discussing the matter, although I think your ruling is quite right, that on an item which has to do with the printing of the report of the committee my hon. friend is wandering rather far afield. I think the proper place to have discussed the merits or demerits of the proposals contained in the report from which he is quoting would have been the prairie farm rehabilitation vote, because this is essentially a matter of building dams and of getting water for irrigation. It could, therefore, have been more appropriately discussed under that item in the estimates of the Department of Agriculture.


John Horne Blackmore: In reply to the minister, I .point out that this project because of its size does not come under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act. In the negotiations regarding this matter, which lasted many months, and in which I had a considerable part, it was pointed out I believe, by the Minister of Agriculture that this project could not properly come under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act because it was so large. It, therefore, would hardly have been in order for me to discuss it under the item which the minister suggests. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that I have said practically nothing for two or three days; I am not abusing the time of this committee, and this is a matter that vitally affects my constituency and my province.


Thomas Vien: I would point out to
the hon. gentleman that the Chairman would be seriously embarrassed if any hon. gentle-
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man, because he had not spoken for one or two or three days, asked the privilege of talking on any subject when a particular item was before the committee. If the minister has no objection to the hon. gentleman proceeding and it is the consensus of the committee to allow him to proceed, he may do so by unanimous consent, with the understanding that his remarks will not develop into a general discussion of the merits or demerits of the report. If the report has been tabled in the house, it is always open to any hon. member to give notice of a motion that action be taken upon it. May I assume that the hon. gentleman has the unanimous consent of the committee.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


John Horne Blackmore: Recommendation No. 9 reads:
9.	That there is tributary to the St. Mary and Milk rivers a larger area of good irrigable land that can be irrigated by the total water available from Canada's share of these rivers supplemented by waters of the Belly and Waterton rivers.
Then No. 10:
10.	That upon the completion of the ultimate development a total of 345,000 acres would be available for post-war settlement and for the reestablishment of many farmers at present on submarginal lands.
May I just pause to point out to members of the committee that the project under discussion involves 345,000 acres of the finest land in the Dominion of Canada. When brought under irrigation every 20,000 acres of it could support a beet sugar factory capable of producing 5 per cent of Canada's sugar requirements. The whole 345,000 acres could thus yield 85 per cent of Canada's consumption of sugar before rationing took place. From these facts the committee can gather some idea of the potentialities of that area with respect to producing sugar. Remember, it is 345,000 acres!


Paul Joseph James Martin: What acreage is now under cultivation?


John Horne Blackmore: In sugar beets? About
20,000	acres will supply a sugar factory. One sugar factory in my constituency is using, roughly, 14,000 acres at the present time. I would suppose that for the two factories between 20,000 and 24,000 acres are under cultivation out there now.
Then No. 11:
11.	That a reservoir on the St. Mary river in Canada is the most important feature in the development and the site proposed and dealt with by this report is the most feasible for purposes of storing Canada's share of the St. Mary river and tributaries and waters from the Belly and Waterton rivers.
[The Chairman.]
12.	That while irrigation in southern Alberta has been featured during the past by many difficulties, due chiefly to the financial set-up whereby all the costs of construction were charged or assessed against the lands irrigated, its value is clearly demonstrated in many ways by the projects now operating.
13.	That under irrigation, the soil and climatic conditions in southern Alberta are highly favourable to the production of forage crops and live stock and for growing sugar beets, corn, canning products, and a wide variety of specialty crops.
14.	That the stabilized agriculture and increased production resulting from further irrigation development in southern Alberta wrould provide for permanent home building, for a higher standard of living, and for improved social advantages and educational facilities.
15.	That the total estimated outlay required fully and economically to utilize Canada's share of the St. Mary and Milk rivers for the irrigation of 345,000 acres of land on the basis of pre-war prices is estimated at $15,178,439 or $43.99 per acre, including construction, operation deficits, land preparation and colonization costs over a fourteen-year period of development.
In the light of the astronomical figures we now use in dealing with Canada's expenditure, that amount of money is but small change.
16.	That the capital cost is reasonable for irrigation projects of comparable size and that the extensive national and provincial benefits to be expected from the undertaking through business developments and reduction of relief costs fully justify government financial assistance.
An important finding. Then No. 17:
17.	That while the programme proposed provides for a fourteen-year period of construction, the development lends itself to great flexibility both in time and the order in which different parts may be undertaken.
18.	That benefits to be derived from the proposed development spread widely throughout the country and accrue:
(a)	to the farmer,
(b)	to the local urban community centres, the municipalities and the province, and
(c)	to the country at large in increased taxable wealth, increased food supply, and business expansion.
19.	That from representations made to the committee by individual farmers and by various organizations including the South Alberta Water Conservation Council, a representative organization, there is a wide demand for the construction of the proposed development.
20.	That the representatives of the Alberta government, while not committing their government, expressed a strong desire to see the development proceeded with, provided of course, satisfactory arrangements can be arrived at between the two governments and embodied in an agreement.
Those are the findings, Mr. Chairman.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Friday, July 31, 1942