1942-05-20

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	Is it a fact that large quantities of bananas were dumped at pier 40 at the port of Halifax, Nova Scotia, on or about May 2, 1942?
2.	If so, what steps have been taken to ascertain who was responsible for such action?
3.	Has any action been taken to prevent such wastage in the future?
4.	Has the national harbours board taken measures to prevent such action by individual firms, ship owners or ship agents?
5.	Will the minister responsible take action to make an inquiry into this apparent waste of fruit?
6.	Was a free offer of this fruit made to the military authorities at Halifax or Debert?
7.	Was a free offer of this fruit made to the naval or Royal Canadian Air Force headquarters at Halifax?


Mr. AYLESWORTH:: 1.	Is it true that tons of edible bananas were destroyed in the last few months at Halifax harbour?
2.	If so, what action has been taken or will be taken by the government to prevent recurrence of this waste?


Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	Have large quantities of bananas recently been dumped in Halifax harbour?
2.	If so, what quantities have been so dumped?
3.	Are there any government regulations dealing with the destruction of foods in Canada?


Mr. PURDY:: With reference to the alleged dumping of a large quantity of bananas in Halifax harbour, is it the government's intention to hold a full investigation and place the evidence, with a report, before the house?


Mr. HOWE:: I will make one oral answer to these four questions, all of which concern a shipment of bananas alleged to have been dumped at pier 40 at the port of Halifax.
On April 30 there reached Halifax a cargo of bananas, a considerable portion of which was in an overripe condition and proved to be unsaleable and unshippable. The spoiling appears to have been due to war shipping conditions, causes entirely beyond the control of either the exporter or the importer. I understand that part of the shipment was given away by the owners to certain charitable institutions. None of the shipment was dumped in the harbour proper. The spoiled bananas were removed from the wharf by the harbour board and put in a special dump at pier 40. It may be possible that some of the bananas were removed from pier 40 by truck drivers entirely without the consent of the harbour board. I understand it is reported that some even turned up in the northwest arm. If so, I am assured by the harbour authorities that they were moved by truck drivers or other unauthorized persons from the harbour dump and placed there.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE-ADMINISTRATION- EMPLOYMENT OP RETURNED SOLDIERS
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	How many men have been employed in connection with the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act in each of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta?
2.	How many are returned soldiers?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Manitoba 45, Saskatchewan 33, Alberta 45.
2.	Manitoba 18, Saskatchewan 15, Alberta 23.
Note.-These figures do not include limited
period nor casual book renewal employees.


ANNUITIES BRANCH PUBLICATIONS
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	How many copies of a 16-page booklet from the government annuities branch of the Department of Labour have been circulated throughout Canada?
2.	Does the department consider the printing of 16-page booklets at this time and sending them all over the dominion, is justified?

Questions


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	60,000.
2.	During the fiscal year ending March 31, 1942, 4,766 persons took out annuity contracts and approximately $16,000,000 in purchase money was received and the superintendent of annuities attributes considerable of this increase to the circulation of the booklets. It is considered that the issuance is justified by the facts. However, with a view to effecting economy from a monetary standpoint as well as in the use of materials and labour a leaflet, which it is intended should largely take the place of the present descriptive booklet, is now in the hands of the king's printer.


GASOLINE RATIONING-FARMERS
Mr. MATTHEWS:: Is it the intention of the government to arrange for any concession to farmers whereby, while remaining under the coupon system, they could secure gasoline by the barrel as heretofore?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The farmer is allowed to buy gasoline by the drum for his truck but not for his motor car.


ST. CATHARINES STEEL COMPANY CONTRACTS
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	What contracts have been let to the St. Catharines Steel Company of St. Catharines, Ontario?
2.	What is the total value of these contracts?
3.	What articles are being manufactured for the Canadian government or on British account?
4.	Are these contracts on a management fee basis, are they cost-plus contracts, or were they given as a result of tender?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Six contracts have been let to St. Catharines Steel Products Limited on Canadian
account.
2.	The estimated total value of these contracts is $4,454,000.
3.	Three types of armour piercing and semiarmour piercing ammunition of a highly technical nature are being manufactured for Canadian account.
4.	All of the contracts mentioned in 2 have been let on a target price basis.
Note.-The British government have requested us not to give information regarding United Kingdom contracts placed in Canada.


WAR LABOUR BOARDS
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	What is the personnel of the wartime labour boards?
2.	What organizations do these individuals represent?
3.	What salary, travelling expenses and other remuneration have been paid to them, as at March 31, 1942?


Mr. MITCHELL:: National Board
War Labour Boards	Travelling
Remuneration Expenses
Hon. Humphrey Mitchell (Chairman), Department of Labour.... No remuneration Dr. Bryce M. Stewart (Vice-Chairman), Department of Labour.. No remuneration
A. Deschamps, President, Builders Exchange, Montreal	 $	75 00
George Hodge, Manager, Department of Personnel, Canadian
Pacific Railways, Montreal	
G.	Jackson, Sentinel Securities of Canada Ltd., Toronto, Ont.	90 00
J. II. Stovel, Vice-President and General Manager, Dome Mines,
South Porcupine, Ont	
H.	Taylor, Canadian National Carbon Co., Ltd., Toronto, Ont..		
John A. Bell, General Chairman, Order of Railroad Telegraphers,
Toronto, Ont	 75	00
W. Dunn, Financial Secretary-Treasurer, Toronto District Labour
Council, Toronto,	Ont	
105	00J. A. McClelland,	Valois, Quebec	
2,925	00
A. R. Mosher, President, Canadian Congress of Labour,
Ottawa, Ont	 105	00
Gerard Picard, General Secretary, Confederation of Catholic
Workers of Canada, Quebec, Que	 105 00


$ 154 95 1,148 60 174 12 383 60 366 40 213 40 245 00 392 65 R.W.L.B.-P.E.I.
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Hon. Horace Wright (Chairman), President of the Executive
Council	No remuneration 114 80
J. M. Hunter, Charlottetown, P.E.1	
435 00	111 25Leo. F. Corcoran, Charlottetown, P.E.1	
435 00	109 50

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Hon. L. D. Currie, K.C. (Chairman), Minister of Mines and Labour No remuneration Sydney C. Mifflen, Office Engineer, Dominion Coal Company Ltd.,
Sydney, N.S	 510 00	359 23
T. D. A. Purves (Vice-Chairman)	 No remuneration
Arthur W. Schwartz, Vice-President, Lunenburg Foundry Company, Ltd., Lunenburg, N.S	 540 00	216 15
Questions
[Stage Direction]
War Labour Boards-Con.
R.W.L.B.-N.S.-Con.
Clinton Giles, Local Chairman, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers of the International Railway Labour Organization,
Stellarton, N.S	
Doane Curtis, Member of the Steel Workers' Organizing Committee of the Steel Plant of the Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation, Sydney

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. Andre Doucet (Chairman), Minister of Health and
Labour	
Charles J. A. Hughes (Vice-Chairman)	
R. W. Cameron, Lumberman, Fredericton, N.B	
C. Alan Beatteay, Manager, Snowflake Lime Company Ltd., Saint
John, N.B	
Geo. R. Melvin, Secretary-Treasurer, New Brunswick Federation
of Labour, Saint John, N.B	
R. F. Gould, Claims' Investigator, C.N.R., and President Canadian Brotherhood of Railway Employees and Other Transport Workers, Local Division No. 137, Moncton, N.B	
R.W.L.B.-Quebec
Frangois Faure, V lce-Fresident, Lmnsoliaateti jraper corporation
Limited, Montreal, P.Q	
Robert McLagan, General Manager, Canadian Vickers Limited,
Montreal, P.Q	
Col. J. H. Dessureault, Dessureault and Company, Quebec, P.Q... Paul N. Marquette, General Representative, Canadian Congress
of Labour, Montreal, P.Q	
Philippe Lessard, President, National Catholic Pulp and Paper
Federation, Port Alfred, P.Q	; [DOT]
Lionel Thibeault, Representative, Boot and Shoe Workers' Union Montreal, P.Q	
R.W.L.B.-Ontario
Hon. Peter Heenan (Chairman), Minister of Labour	
S.	E. Dinsmore, President, Dinsmore-Mclntire, Ltd., Windsor, Ont. C.-B. C. Scott, Superintendent, Massey-Harris Company Ltd.,
Toronto, Ont	
J. Cauley, Member of Ontario Executive, Trades and Labour
Congress of Canada, Hamilton, Ont	
Joseph Corbett, Chairman, Joint Protective Board, Canadian National Railways, Brotherhood of Railway Carmen, London,
Ont	*
Elroy Robson, Director of Organization for the Province of Ontario,
Canadian Congress of Labour, Toronto, Ont	
E. E. Sparrow, Director, Imperial Varnish and Color Co., Ltd., Toronto, Ont

[Stage Direction]
Manitoba
Hon. S. J. Farmer (Chairman), Minister of Labour	
J. H. Parkhill, Parkhill Bedding Limited, Winnipeg, Man	
E.	Claydon, President, Claydon Company Ltd., Winnipeg, Man. .. Fred Keeley, Chairman, Manitoba Provincial Executive Committee
of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, Winnipeg, Man. John S. McNabb, Secretary, Winnipeg Labour Council, Winnipeg.
R.W.L.B.-Saskatchewan
Hon. R. J. M. Parker (Chairman), Minister in charge of Bureau
of Labour and Public Welfare	
Charles Andrew Scott (Vice-Chairman)	
Leroy Johnson, K.C., Natural Sodium Products Ltd., Moose Jaw..
F.	E. Doull, Office Manager, The Robert Simpson Co., Ltd.,
Regina, Sask	
H. D. Davis, General Chairman, Brotherhood of Railway Carmen,
Prince Albert, Sask	
Gerald Dealtry, Secretary, Trades and Labour Council, Saskatoon, Sask	
R.W.L.B.-Alberta
Hon. E. C. Manning (Chairman), Provincial Secretary and
Minister of Trade and Industry	
W. D. King (Vice-Chairman), Deputy Minister	
Wm. Innes, Burns and Company. Limited, Calgary, Alberta	
H. G. MacDonald, Edmonton, Alta	

Travelling	
Remuneration	Expenses
540 00	184 00
570 00	269 95
	48 25
No remuneration	
90 00	153 30
97 50	101 90
105 00	101 90
180 00	164 83
No remuneration No remuneration	211 93
105 00	15 00
[DOT][DOT] 180 00	196 68
195 00	99 05
195 00	481 85
150 00	178 00
No remuneration	
135 00	271 45
	49 10
165 00	142 70
165 00	106 60
165 00	47 50
165 00	46 10
No remuneration	37 60
195 00	145 40
180 00	130 90
180 00	131 00
210 00	46 45
No remuneration No remuneration	
240 00	96 15
285 00	136 30
405 00	49 54
360 00	117 60
No remuneration No remuneration	
160 00	262 25
245 00	328 60

Questions
War Labour Boards-Cone.
R.W.L.B.-Alberta-Con.
T.	C. Thompson, President, Local 271, Sheet Metal Workers'
International Association, Edmonton, Alta	ic: [DOT] [DOT]
D. Mathieson, Secretary, Locals 6783, 6784, 4119, Lnited Mine Workers'of America, District 18, Edmonton, Alberta

[Stage Direction]
Hon. George S. Pearson (Chairman), Minister of Labour	
Adam Bell (Vice-Chairman), Deputy Minister of Labour	
Byron S. Johnston, Gilley Brothers, New Westminster, B.C	
John Tucker, Vancouver, B.C	
Sijney Garfield Smith, Bloedel Welch and Stewart, Vancouver,
Chris" Pritchard, President, Vancouver Metal Trades Council,
Vancouver, B.C	- [DOT] [DOT]	[DOT][DOT][DOT] [DOT] [DOT] [DOT]'TV '	;
L. Campbell, Boilermakers and Iron Shipbuilders Union ot
Canada. Vancouver, B.C	 [DOT] [DOT] * [DOT] [DOT] [DOT] *[DOT] * * [DOT]
H. W. Mackey. Vice-General Chairman of the Brotherhood ot Locomotive Engineers, Vancouver, B.C	
Travelling Remuneration Expenses	
225 00	186 60
225 00	214 00
No remuneration No remuneration 247 50 142 50	259 60
142 50	260 60
300 00	48 20
300 00	48 45
285 00	49 70

Mr. FERLAND:: 1.	To what point have the French-language recruits in the electoral district of Joliette-L'Assomption-Montealm, summoned to receive their military instruction at training centre No. 42, Joliette, Quebec, actually been sent?
2.	Is it true that young men of the province of Quebec are sent to centres of military instruction outside the province?


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	Such men have not been sent to any one point but have been sent to various advanced training centres according to the arm or service in which they were to be trained. After completion of advanced training they have been dispatched to various units for duty. Recruits who do not speak English are sent to advanced training centres and units in which the French language is spoken, such as: Petawawa, Borden, Barrie-field, Farnham, Three Rivers, Valcartier and Halifax. To prepare a complete list of points at which men trained at Joliette are now serving would require a study of the individual documents of all such men.
2.	Men from the province of Quebec may be sent for training to training centres in Quebec, of which there are 11 basic and 3 advanced, or to other provinces, depending on the arm or service in which they are trained. Similarly men from other provinces may be sent to the province of Quebec for training, for example, all reinforcements from all over Canada for infantry (machine gun) battalions, are trained in Three Rivers.


CANADIAN BUREAU OP INFORMATION IN UNITED STATES
Mr. BRUCE:: Has anything yet been done in respect to the establishment of a Canadian bureau of information in the United States?


Mr. THORSON:: The question of the establishment of a Canadian bureau of information in the United States is at present under review with the United States authorities concerned with the field of public information.


NATIONAL SELECTIVE SERVICE ADVISORY BOARD
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Who is the director of national selective service?
2.	Where was his residence immediately prior to his appointment?
3.	What does he receive by way of pay and allowance in such position?
4.	Who is the associate director of national selective service?
5.	Where was his residence immediately prior to his appointment?
6.	What does he receive by way of pay and allowance in such position?
7.	What are the names and addresses of the national selective service advisory board and the pay and allowances paid to each one for acting in such capacity?
8.	Give the names and addresses immediately prior to appointment, and pay and allowances of all other officers, clerks, and other employees appointed under the provision of section 5, subsections 1 and 2 of the order set forth in order in council P.C. 2254.


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Elliott M. Little.
2.	136 Moncton Avenue, Quebec, P.Q.
3.	Mr. Little's services are gratis.
4.	Paul Goulet.
5.	46 Glencoe, Outremont, P.Q.
6.	$7,000 per annum.
7.	(a) The national selective service advisory board is composed of the members of the national war labour board and the interdepartmental committee on labour coordination as follows:
Hon. Humphrey Mitchell, Minister of Labour.
Mr. E. M. Little, Director of National Selective Service.

Questions

Mr. A. Deschamps, Builders Exchange, 680 Sherbrooke St. W., Montreal, P.Q.
Mr. George Hodge, Canadian Pacific Railway Co., Montreal, P.Q.
Mr. G. Jackson, Sentinel Secruities of Canada, Ltd., Toronto, Ontario.
Mr. J. H. Stovel, Dome Mines, South Porcupine, Ontario.
Mr. H. Taylor, Canadian National Carbon Co. Ltd., Toronto, Ontario.
Mr. John A. Bell, Order of Railroad Telegraphers, 139 Pacific ave., Toronto, Ont.
Mr. W. J. Dunn, Toronto District Labour Council, 404 Merton street, Toronto, Ont.
Mr. J. A. McClelland, Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, Valois, P.Q.
Mr. A. R. Mosher, Canadian Congress of Labour, 230 Laurier ave. W., Ottawa, Ont.
Mr. Gerard Picard, Confederation of Catholic Workers of Canada, Quebec, P.Q.
Dr. Bryce M. Stewart, Department of Labour.
Mr. H. C. Goldenberg, Department of Munitions and Supply.
Lieut.-Col. G. S. Currie, Department of National Defence, Army.
Mr. H. F. Gordon, Department of National Defence, Air Services.
Mr. H. A. Wilson, Department of National Defence, Naval Services.
Major-General L. R. LaFleche, Department of National War Services.
Dr. G. S. H. Barton, Department of Agriculture.
Dr. W. A. Mackintosh, Department of Finance.
Mr. K. W. Taylor, Wartime Prices and Trade Board.
Dr. C. Blaekler, Department of Pensions and National Health.
(b) No special remuneration for their services in this connection.
8.	L. A. Wright, Montreal, P.Q., assistant to director, $6,000 per annum.
Miss D. E. White, Quebec, P.Q., clerk, $1,620 per annum.
Miss Y. Bryson, Ottawa, Ont., clerk, $1,620 per annum.
Miss A. Weaver, stenographer, $780 per annum.
Miss H. O'Donnell, typist, $900 per annum. Miss L. Graham, typist, $720 per annum.


JOHN DOBBIB
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	Is there a Mr. John Dobbie from Port Arthur in the Department of Munitions and Supply?
2.	If so, what is his occupation and salary?
3.	When was he appointed?
4.	What is his age and qualification for that position?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 1, 2 and 3. Mr. J. C. Dobbie of Port Arthur, Ontario, was appointed as a clerk, grade 3, economics and statistics branch, Department of Munitions and Supply on October 10, 1941. Salary $1,380 per annum.
4.	(a) Twenty-five years of age (medically unfit for military service);
(b) Graduate of Queen's university. Majored in economics.


INDEMNITY CLAIMS FOR LAND APPROPRIATIONS FOR WAR PURPOSES
Mr. FERLAND:: 1.	Did the Department of Justice receive from the office of the Secretary of State on February 5, last, petitions of right from Joseph Landry, Arthur Foucher and Victor Langevin of L'Assomption, and from Edouard Urbain, all farmers, claiming indemnities on account of land expropriations for war purposes?
2.	Have these petitions of right been submitted to His Excellency the Governor General?
3.	If not, does the Department of Justice intend to deal with these petitions?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	Yes.
2.	No.
3.	These petitions are under consideration by the Department of Justice, and a report from the department concerned is awaited to enable the Minister of Justice to advise whether fiats should be granted.


EXPRESSION BY MILITARY OFFICERS OF PRIVATE POLITICAL OPINIONS-LIEUT.-COL. MESS
Mrs. NIELSEN:: 1.	Are military officers forbidden to express private political opinions when acting in an official capacity?
2.	If so, what disciplinary action has been taken against Lt.-Col. Mess for his address before the Canadian club in Saskatoon on May 6?


Mr. RALSTON:: I might make an oral answer to these questions. In answer to the first question, which evidently has reference to Lieutenant-Colonel Mess who is mentioned in the second question, Colonel Mess is not a military officer, and therefore I do not think either of the questions applies. In that connection, however, I should like to tell the house the situation with regard to the address of Colonel Mess to which reference is made in the questions.
The statement reported as having been made by Colonel Mess was made in the course of an address to the Canadian club and the Women's Canadian club of Saskatoon. Colonel Mess told his audience he was president of the Association of Canadian Clubs, director of army recruiting, a Canadian business man and
25%

Questions as Orders for Returns
a civilian. He asked that his remarks be considered as coming from a civilian. His remarks regarding the communist party of Canada were quite incidental to one short section of his main address which was devoted to the duties of citizens in a number of fields.
In that particular section of his address he asked for consideration and tolerance by his fellow Canadians for those of other nationalities. He pointed out that we had in Canada over two and one-half million citizens who are often referred to as "foreign nationals." He emphasized that 95 per cent of these were faithful people who were loyal to our institutions. He did in this connection refer to the communist party of Canada, which, as the house knows, is an illegal organization, and indicated his views as to what the methods of the communist party of Canada are. As I have said, Colonel Mess stated that in making these remarks he was expressing his views as a civilian. He was not authorized by the government or the department to express any views or make any statement on this subject.
I have made it clear to Colonel Mess that such matters more properly pertain to the realm of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the intelligence and security branch of the army, than to the recruiting branch and that the interests of security make it inadvisable for any official of the department to discuss in public the methods which an illegal organization may be or may not be supposed to be using.
Lieutenant-Colonel Mess has, in his capacity of president of the association of Canadian clubs, delivered many addresses on matters affecting Canadian citizenship, and he has explained to me, what I can quite understand, that he did not realize the importance which, on account of his official position, would likely be attached to what he might say on the subject in question. I may say that any subversive influences which might affect either our armed forces or the civilian population are having and will continue to have the most vigilant attention by the governmental authorities concerned.


JOINT DEFENCE BOARD
Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	What remuneration in the form of salary, or expenses, or both, is paid by the government to Colonel 0. M. Biggar in his capacity as chairman of the Canadian section of the permanent joint board of defence?
2.	What remuneration in the form of salary, or expenses, or both, is paid by the government to Colonel 0. M. Biggar in his capacity as director of censorship?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: No remuneration has been paid or authorized to be paid
to Colonel O. M. Biggar for his services either as chairman of the Canadian section of the permanent joint board on defence or as director of censorship. His remuneration in the latter capacity will be considered when the reorganization has been completed and the burden of the duties ascertained. Colonel Biggar has received his actual expenses incurred while away from Ottawa on the business of the permanent joint board on defence and will do so when required to be away in discharge of his functions as director of censorship.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

[Stage Direction]
CATTLE AND BEEF STATISTICS \

Mr. JACKMAN:: 1.	What was the total appropriation voted by parliament during each of the last two fiscal years for the-work of the national film board?
2.	What was the total amount made available to the national film board during each of the last two fiscal years from the war appropriation acts?
3.	What was the total amount made available to the national film board during each of the last two fiscal years by transfer from grants made by parliament for other branches of government service?
4.	What was the grand total of all the expenditures of the national film board during each of the last two fiscal years?
Motions jor Papers


MARITIME LOBSTER INDUSTRY
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What are the names and addresses of persons employed by the government in the marketing, handling and storage of canned lobster for 1941 in, (a) Prince Edward Island,
(b)	Nova Scotia, (c) New Brunswick?
2.	For what period was each such person employed, what were his or her duties, what was the rate of remuneration and the total amount paid to each for, (a) services, and
(b)	expenses?
3.	What were the rents or charges paid for offices, storage or warehouse space, the location and the periods of lease or use, to whom were payments made and the amount paid for each?
4.	What were the additional expenditures in each province, stating for what purposes they were made and to whom paid?
5.	What number of cases of lobster 8 doz. tins, (a) is, (b) is, (c) 4 doz. flats, did the government buy in each province during the spring season of 1941, also during the fall season of 1941, and what prices were paid and from whom were purchases made?
6.	What quantity of each size was sold and at what price?
7.	(a) In what newspapers and magazines did the government place advertisements regarding canned lobster, (b) what was the cost of such advertising, and (e) what was the name of the person or agency handling such advertising and the percentage and total commission paid to each?
8.	Did the government charge buyers 8 per cent sales tax on every sale, if not, why not?
9.	Did the government reject any lobsters, if so, state reasons, names of packers and addresses and quantity in each instance?
10.	Did the government oversell during the spring season, or fall season, if so, state quantity of each size and full particulars?
_ 11. What profit or loss did the government incur on the 1941 canned lobster business, including advertising and all other expenses?


JAPANESE NATIONALS IN BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. REID:: 1.	What has been the total expenditure up to the end of April, 1942, made by the security commission set up to handle the movement of Japanese from the coast of British Columbia?
2.	What amount of money has been spent on equipment at the Hastings park camp or depot, showing, (a) number and cost of beds, (b) number and cost of cooking stoves or ranges,
(c)	cost of lumber and hardware used in construction of fence, (d) cost of labour?
3.	What number are employed in this camp, including clerical staff, police and all other help?
4.	What total number can now be accommodated at Hastings park?
5.	Is it the intention to leave any particular class or classes of Japanese at the Hastings park camp?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. HAZEN:: For a return showing-(a) the names and addresses of the persons to whom cheques were

issued for $4,000 to $5,000 as wheat acreage reduction bonus; (b) how the amounts were made up; (c) how much each person received.


Mr. GARDINER:: Mr. Speaker, this motion deals with the same matter that was brought up in a question on the order paper at an earlier stage of the session. I only wish to state that I think this should be allowed to pass subject to the conditions which were stated before, that it is without prejudice and without setting a precedent.


SALT FISH BOARD-PICKLED OR VINEGAR-CURED HERRING
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: For a copy of all correspondence between the Department of Fisheries or the salt fish board and the government of Nova Scotia, companies, agencies or persons with respect to the curing and the marketing of pickled or vinegar-cured herring and the bonusing or assisting same during the years 1939 to March 31, 1942.


ATWOOD'S BROOK, N.S., POSTMASTERSHIP
Percy Chapman Black: For a copy of correspondence during 1941 and 1942, in connection with the appointment of postmaster at Atwood's Brook, Shelburne county, Nova Scotia, and the application of Mr. Ernest Kenney and Robert G. Stoddart, an ex-service man; and the retirement of the previous incumbent and the appointment of his successor.


DUTY ON COAL CLEARED AT PORT OF TORONTO
Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: For a statement showing the amount of duty paid on coal cleared at the port of Toronto between April 15 and July 15 (inclusive), 1940.


Mr. GIBSON:: In view of the fact that monthly returns of customs figures are readily available, the hon. member for York South has consented to amend the question to read "between May 1 and July 31, 1940, inclusive." I would request that the motion be passed as amended.


CANADIAN ARMY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence, of which I have given notice. I hold in my hand a copy of order in council P.C. 4105, dated Friday, May 15, 1942, passed under the authority of the War Measures Act, which empowers the government to send detachments of the Winnipeg Grenadiers and the Canadian Fusiliers (City of London regiment) to the United States in connection with certain service and duty. It is recited

Canadian Army
in the order in council that the detachments will include men on the strength of these battalions who have been called out for training, service or duty under the National Resources Mobilization Act.
As this is the first instance in which men called out under the mobilization act have been dispatched for duty outside of Canada, I should like to ask the minister to give the house some explanation of the background of this order in council. I should like also to ask if it is the intention of the government to invoke the authority of the War Measures Act for the purpose of sending troops, called up pursuant to the National Resources Mobilization Act, out of Canada for duty in other parts of the world.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Speaker, the duty to which my hon. friend refers is escort duty in connection with prisoners of war. When we came to decide what troops should be provided for that purpose, along with the veterans guard and provost corps personnel, I was advised by the officers concerned that to use troops from these two units would avoid interference with operational, training and other requirements in which other units were engaged. It has been indicated more than once, I think, that the War Measures Act would be used for purposes of this kind when required, and this was a case in which that course was considered advisable.
I do not think my hon. friend will expect me to make any statement with respect to future policy. I can only say that as to the intention for the future, it will be indicated as the circumstances arise.


HONG KONG COMMISSION
[Stage Direction]
INQUIRY AS TO PRESENTATION OP REPORT On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar) :: I should like to ask the Prime Minister if there is any possibility of the house receiving in the near future the report of the Hong Kong commission.


James Layton Ralston: All I can say to my hon. friend is what I said the other day, that I am advised that due to the illness of the gentleman who was nominated by the leader of the opposition to take part in the inquiry as counsel, a long extension had to be granted in order to permit briefs to be filed. I indicated last week that those briefs were to be filed within a week. I think they are to be filed to-morrow, if they have not already been filed. At any rate there is 
some sort of meeting to-morrow in connection with it-some sort of hearing. Further than that I cannot say. The question as to when the report is actually to be filed is one for the commissioner. The delay as I understand it is merely on account of the illness of the gentleman to whom I have referred.


Major James William Coldwell: Is the minister doing his best to see that the report is expedited? There are many people anxiously awaiting it.


James Layton Ralston: I can only say to my hon. friend that it is in the hands of the chief justice, and I do hesitate to say that I would take any part in influencing him one way or another. But I will say that so far as the government is concerned, the brief has been ready. As a matter of fact the brief was ready within a week, or perhaps even less, after the hearing was concluded. Therefore there has been absolutely no delay of any kind on acount of anything the government or those representing the government might have been able to do.


INQUIRY AS TO ACTION BEING TAKEN TO RELIEVE SHORTAGE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), because according to a report in a Toronto paper of yesterday this matter is urgent. The report is as follows:
Beef For Week-End To Hit New Low.
Greatest Shortage Since Scarcity Started, Live Stock Dealers Predict.
There will be a greater shortage of beef this week-end than has been the case through the whole beef scarcity, live stock dealers at the Union Stock Yards predicted at noon hour to-day. Receipts have not been nearly sufficient to meet the retail needs, only 1,000* cattle, half a normal Tuesday run, was received to-day.
Is the Minister of Agriculture prepared at this time to make a statement to the house with respect to the question I asked on April 20, 1942, and which is reported at page 1743 of Hansard? My question had reference to the shortage of beef in the butcher shops in Canada, Replying on that day the minister said he would make a statement within a few days.


Mr. SPEAKER:: This is really a question which should be on the order paper.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I think it is too urgent for that.
Vichy Representation


THE MINISTRY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. LIGUORI LACOMBE (Laval-Two Mountains):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Is the Prime Minister through with the consideration of the question as to whether or not the province of Quebec is to be given its proper representation in the cabinet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend has asked that question several times. If he is desirous of having himself considered for such a position, I can tell him immediately that his chances are very slight indeed.


DEFENCE OF CANADA REGULATIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Justice tell the house when the committee on the defence of Canada regulations is to start its work? The motion was passed two weeks ago to-day.
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice is not a member of that committee. I suggest the question should be asked of someone who is a member of it.


VICHY REPRESENTATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I
made a statement to the house with respect to diplomatic relations between Canada and France. At that time I made no reference to the position of French consulates and consular agencies in Canada. As hon. members are aware, there are four consulates in Canada, one at Vancouver, one at Winnipeg, one at Montreal, and there is a consular office at Quebec. The consul himself was removed from the Quebec consulate a few days ago, but the office itself is not as yet closed.
There are consular agencies of France in Halifax, Toronto, Edmonton and Vancouver. I should like to say however that the normal commercial and shipping functions of the French consulate and consular agencies have been in abeyance for some time. Their re-

sidual duties have been much diminished in volume and importance by the course of the war. The consulates themselves are, as a consequence, rendering very little in the way of service, and their presence has become a focus of suspicions and misunderstandings.
In the circumstances the government have thought it advisable to request the French minister to take the necessary steps to suspend the operation of French consulates and consular agencies, and I have to-day advised the French minister accordingly.


Grote Stirling: Would the Prime Minister indicate whether these are French nationals who will have to be returned to France, and whether there are Canadian nationals there who will also have to be returned to Canada?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would have
to make inquiries in order to give my hon. friend an exact answer.


PURCHASES BY CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS FROM INVERNESS MINE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, in reply to a
question asked by the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) regarding the purchase of coal by the Canadian National Railways from the Inverness coal mine, I am advised by the management of the railways that for the past ten years the purchases from the Inverness Coal company have made up a very small proportion of the total tonnage of the mine. For example, in 1941 the railways purchased approximately 15,000 tons out of a total production of 150.000 tons. Contracts have been negotiated recently for the purchase of 250 tons per week. This should help to improve the situation referred to by the hon. member.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Grote Stirling: May I ask the Prime Minister to intimate to the house whether it is the intention that the house shall sit on Monday next?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If there were a general desire on the part of hon. members to have Monday observed as a holiday, in order that they might visit their constituencies on Victoria day, the government would be prepared

War Appropriation-Supplies
to consider such a request. I should say however, from the government's point of view, that we feel we should endeavour to expedite the work of the session as much as possible. As we are now nearing the end of the fourth month of the session and there is still a large amount of business to be done, unless there should be a general wish on the part of hon. members not to sit on Monday, the government proposes to have the regular sitting on that day.



BUSINESS OF PARLIAMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask if the Prime Minister would care to make a statement in connection with the matters I raised in the house during the past two sessions and the reply he made to me on those occasions, with reference to the reallocation and readjustment of war work between the two houses of parliament. I suggested last session that matters connected with war contracts and expenditures might be one; and some matters on foreign affairs he mentioned yesterday and to-day might be dealt with there, although it is not their function. They have been away now for nearly eleven months, with the exception of a few hours, since last June. Will the Prime Minister give consideration to this matter?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have been discussing that very matter with the Hon. Doctor King, who is acting leader in the senate at the present time, and I think what my hon. friend has in mind may possibly be furthered as a result of our conversation.


Major James William Coldwell: Does the Prime Minister consider the war expenditures committee to be a proper function of the other place?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I took the remarks of the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) as being general in character, and as not having reference to any particular subject, other than that the other house might interest itself in matters which might be of assistance to this house. I would say to the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) that war expenditures are a primary concern of the House of Commons.


Thomas Langton Church: They should be given more real war work, or the senate should be abolished. They have been sitting here only about six hours since last June.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, May 19, consideration in committee of a resolution to provide sums not exceeding $2,000,000,000 for the year ending March 31, 1943, for granting to his majesty aid for national defence and security-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Vien in the chair.
Mr. MACDONALD (Brantford City):: Mr. Chairman, last Thursday when I was out of the house on business affecting the working men of Brantford and the war effort of Canada, my very dear friend, the hon. member for Northumberland, Ontario (Mr. Fraser), whose friendship I have always valued, and of whose friendship I trust I shall always be worthy, made certain remarks respecting an address made by me in the house on the preceding Thursday. His remarks were not entirely complimentary. When I heard what he had said my first impulse was to rush into the house and reply in language just as uncomplimentary. However, I recalled the words of that great Canadian statesman, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, which have been of great help to me and have prevented me from saying things which I might have regretted later on. I would impress these words upon my hon. friends. Sir Wilfrid's words were : "It does not do to bear resentment in public life."
It was evident from my hon. friend's remarks that he was not in the house when I spoke on the previous Tuesday. Apparently he was engaged, as most of us are so frequently, with committees or departmental work which makes it absolutely impossible for us to be in the house all the time. Apparently he relied upon the report of my speech which appeared in the Ottawa Journal. That paper was kind enough to honour my remarks with front-page publicity. Doubtless there was a scarcity of other sensational news that day. Those remarks were widely read, if not by the people of Canada at least by the people of Ottawa, and they tended to place a false light upon what is being done by the people of the constituency I represent, the city of Brantford.
If my hon. friend had taken the trouble to read my speech he would have found that I was not speaking about the city of Brantford. My only reference to the city of Brantford was with regard to our happiness in having airports in our vicinity. I want to remind hon. members that these airports are not in the city of Brantford; one is three or four miles away, and the other, seven miles. What I said was:
The commanding officers, the officers, the instructors and the young pilots and the ground
War Appropriation-Supplies

crew have all established for themselves a place in the hearts of the people of Brantford city and we are indeed happy to have them in our midst.
If my hon. friend had taken the trouble to read my remarks he would have found that neither the citizens of Brantford nor those who live in the township were complaining at all about the noise from the aeroplane. There was no suggestion of complaint from anyone. My hon. friend boasted-and I have read his remarks-that he slept in his bed at night next to the airport. I find that my hon. friend's home is not next to the airport, but some considerable distance away. He may have a very good imagination; in fact, I know he is a man of wonderful imagination and energy; but his imagination must have been remarkable if he could go to bed at night and think, or perhaps dream, that he was sleeping next to an airport and then wake up and find that he was several miles away.
My remarks were merely in appreciation of those people whose farms and homes are not separated by miles from these airports. When the aeroplanes take off they pass only twenty-five or fifty feet above the tops of their homes and their buildings. Let me make myself clear: those people were not complaining. I was merely expressing to them a word of appreciation, and I am sure the hon. member for Northumberland, Ontario, would join with me in that appreciation. He spoke also of a certain spirit of complacency which was abroad in this land. Let me hasten to assure him and the committee that there need be no fear of any spirit of complacency being abroad in the city of Brantford or in the county of Brant.
I would remind hon. members that in the last war the county of Brant gave to the armed forces as large a percentage of her population as any county in the Dominion of Canada. I would again remind hon. members that at the present time the county of Brant has given to the armed forces more than 5,000 men and women. I would remind hon. members also that at the commencement of this war the city of Brantford, in association with the city of St. Catharines, so ably represented in this house by my friend the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart), suggested to the government that waste should be collected. The idea of the collection of salvage started in those two cities. The idea of using bags which are distributed and left in the homes originated in the city of Brantford. I remember when the present Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) was Minister of National War Services he went to the city of Brantford and investigated what the local council of women were doing, and the national salvage organization was set up after an investigation into

what had been done in Brantford. H the collection of salvage throughout Canada were undertaken on a voluntary basis, as it is done in Brantford by the local council of women, it would be a greater success than it is at the present time.
I should like to remind hon. members of two other matters. When the second victory loan was being organized this year it was suggested that Brantford and the county of Brant should subscribe S3,600,000. Instead of subscribing $3,600,000, we subscribed more than $4,900,000. The Red Cross campaign is now being carried on in Canada. The total required is $9,000,000. The total population of Canada is approximately 11,000,000, which means that there must be obtained a little less than $1 a head. What happened in the city of Brantford? With a population of approximately 30,000 people we are being asked to subscribe $60,000, or $2 a head, and I am sure that the subscription will be nearer $90,000.
I feel sure that if my hon. friend had read my few remarks he would have agreed with most, if not all that I said. I concurred in the suggestion made by the hon. member for Lambton West (Mr. Gray) that commissions should be given to all members of the air crew. I went further and said that if that could not be done at the present time, commissions should be given to all men who had flown over Germany. I said that hockey players got excellent treatment in Canada and I thought that men who flew bombers and fighters over Germany were entitled to as good treatment. I am sure my hon. friend would have agreed with that statement. I stated further that there should not be so much talk about defence, that the talk should be more about offence. Let me read my remarks from page 2350 of Hansard.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


William Ross Macdonald: Perhaps my hon. friends would like to read those remarks themselves instead of my doing it. I would remind them that my suggestion was that there should be less talk of defence and more talk of offence. I suggested that instead of having a Minister of National Defence, a Minister of National Defence for Air and a Minister of National Defence for Naval Services, we should have ministers of war. I stated and I repeat that this war will never be won or lost in Canada. If the war is going to be won-and it must be won-we must go abroad and find Hitler and defeat him abroad. We can never do it in Canada. My remarks have met with the approval of a large section of the press.

War Appropriation-Supplies
If hon. members will bear with me, I should like to refer to two editorials which have appeared in the press since I made those remarks. Comment upon them was made in an inland paper, the Brantford Expositor, of Thursday, March 14, and also in a paper published on the Atlantic coast, the Halifax Herald, of the same date. I shall not take the time of the committee to read these editorials but would recommend them to the attention of hon. members. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that the member for Northumberland, Ontario, would agree with me that we must have more of the go-out-and-fight spirit than we have had if we are going to win this war.
In my remarks I also referred to the question of the taxation of airports. These airports were built when the present Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) was Minister of Transport, and I wish to commend him and his officers for the splendid job they did. . The question of taxation of crown lands is a very broad subject. Some buildings owned by the crown are of special benefit to the community in which they exist. Take, for example, a customs house. A customs house serves the people in the immediate vicinity, in the town or city in which it happens to. be. But airports are, in most instances, built in townships, many miles from a city, and any benefits from their establishments do not come to the township but come to the city. My suggestion was that the government might consider paying taxation on that land. My hon. friend the member for Northumberland, Ontario, had the right to take the opposite view, and other members also have the same right. I repeat, the question of taxation of crown lands is a very broad subject.
The Minister of Munitions and Supply has through his department set up throughout Canada private companies which have purchased lands. Do these companies pay taxes, or are the lands bought in the name of the crown and are they exempt from taxation? The Department of Munitions and Supply has also advanced large sums of money to private organizations. Often these private organizations buy lands. In fact, I am informed that the capital advanced to these private organizations is often considerably greater than the capital of the organization itself. Therefore, to all intents and purposes many of these private organizations are now crown companies, but I do not for one minute think they are exempt from taxation.
As I walk along the streets of Ottawa from day to day I notice that almost every few days another building is being taken over by the government. I should like to ask the minister whether, when buildings are taken over by the
445C1-165
government, the government pays taxes to the-city of Ottawa upon them; and whether, when the government tears down buildings or takes over vacant lands, the government pays taxes to the city of Ottawa for the lands which have been taken over. It must be very difficult, it would seem to me, for the city of Ottawa to set its tax rate if, throughout the year, buildings and lands are taken over by the government and taxation upon these properties ceases. Personally I do not see how the city could meet its expenditures from year to year if the city's taxes are cut into in that manner.
I raise these questions because there seems to be considerable unfairness in the question of taxation of crown lands. The whole question should be reviewed in order that some fair system can be arrived at.
I also wish to bring to the attention of the Minister of Munitions and Supply the question of the shortage of gasoline and rubber. I should like the minister and hon. members to know that my remarks are not at all critical of the minister or of his department. I am convinced that no nation has had a finer Minister of Munitions and Supply than we have had in Canada. But I notice according to the press reports that bond salesmen are entitled to buy used automobile tires while other business men have not that privilege. In what respect are bond salesmen doing a more essential business job than the ordinary business man? Why should the bond salesmen get rubber tires while other men cannot carry on business because they can get no tires?
There is another thing I would draw to the attention of the minister. A man driving a truck cannot take along in it the members of his family. Is it so that a farmer living a few miles from the market must drive his truck and his farm produce to market and that his wife and perhaps his family who sell on the market must go there by some other conveyance? That does not seem to me to be reasonable. If the farmer is going to sell his produce on the market, he should be allowed to drive into the market not only with his produce but also with the members of his family who are going to help him in selling his produce.
With regard to gasoline I notice that the same restriction applies to all business men with the exception of the bond salesman. The bond salesman is again placed in a higher category. I notice by the press reports that a number of business men who have been issued gasoline ration books for categories higher than A have had their books called in and that practically all business men to-day
BE*ISED EDITION
War Appropriation-Supplies

are on the same basis as pleasure drivers in securing gasoline. It comes to my mind that there are many men carrying on business as commercial travellers, not necessarily selling wares essential to war industry, but selling wares that are essential to those who are carrying on war industry. Why should these commercial travellers be put in the same class with those who do not need their cars for business purposes, with those of us who use cars just for pleasure? I was very glad to hear the minister say in the house last night that every effort is being made to eliminate unfairness in rationing. I say to him and the members of the house that it seems most unfair that men should be put out of business while other people are allowed to go on driving their cars in their usual way for pleasure. I would suggest to the minister and to those who make these regulations that every pleasure-car driver should be put off the road before any man is put out of business through rationing, whether he be a commercial traveller or other business man.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I cannot neglect the opportunity of saying to the hon. member for Brantford City that, if one has to be spanked or chastised, it is a pleasure to undergo that discipline from a gentleman who conducts himself and presents his case in the language of my hon. friend.
I should like, now that hon. members have had an opportunity of learning that there is such a place in western Ontario as Brantford, to congratulate the people of that town upon the selection of the hon. gentleman who represents them in this house, and I should like him to pass on to them individually, as far as he possibly can, these words of congratulation on my part.
I think my hon. friend's presentation in connection with government payment of taxes on airports in townships-something to which I neglected to refer on Thursday-is a little far-fetched, because it is my experience that the townships immediately raise the assessment of the property adjacent to airports because of the benefits which accrue to people with money-making ideas in the vicinity of airports.
In conclusion, I would express appreciation to my hon. friend of the very gracious way in which he "panned" me.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: Now that we
have decided among ourselves that we should have a minister of war, I suggest that his first duty should be to settle the war which is going on upon the benches opposite. Perhaps in that one instance we might allow 
him to function as an appeaser; let us have a little appeasement in that direction, and get on with the war which is so serious and affecting us all so much.
I would have hesitated to say anything, being anxious to let the minister get on with his work, had not the hon. member for Wellington North (Mr. Blair) made some remarks not only with regard to the general conduct of hon. members, but having reference to Toronto: no speech coming from Wellington seems to be complete unless the city of Toronto is dragged in.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Another war.


Joseph Henry Harris: When the war
in which we are engaged is over, I hope I shall be spared to take my place in this chamber, and we will start a little war and clear up some illusions which possess the mind not of the people of Wellington North or any other Wellington, but of the representative of Wellington North. In the meantime my remarks will be addressed to the subject matter which is under review.
I received within the last two hours three different letters with regard to the department over which the Minister of Munitions and Supply presides, and jointly therewith, the Department of Finance. Inasmuch as yesterday we were discussing national housing and wartime housing, perhaps I might be permitted in order to save time to put on the record a letter which I have received on this subject. I agree that some of the answers to the questions raised should come from the Minister of Finance, but he will have time to cogitate, and when his turn comes he can ddal with them. Meantime the letter is sufficiently important, perhaps, to go on the record. It is signed by L. R. Campbell, 190 Bingham avenue. I have not the privilege of knowing the writer, who evidently is a constituent of mine. It states:
The practical application of the regulations of the Real Estate Branch ... is working out to the great detriment of the very class they were supposed to protect, the people who rent their homes.
The setting of ceilings on rentals, without a corresponding ceiling on selling prices, presents landlords with the choice of renting their properties in a controlled market, or of selling in a free market. They naturally choose to sell, and due to the influx of population into the larger centres as a result of the war, they can sell at prices which are out of reason compared to normal conditions.
I pause to explain that in my particular community we are favoured by having on the outskirts a very large plant at Scarboro and another large munitions plant at Pickering. Each of these plants employs between 3,000

War Appropriation-Supplies
and 5,000 workers, all of whom, on account of wartime conditions, find it necessary to obtain homes within the proximity of these plants. This particular constituent is within a few minutes' journey of the large Scarboro plant, which has some 4,000 employees. I repeat:

due to the influx of population into the larger centres as a result of the war, they can sell at prices which are out of reason compared to normal conditions.
Wartime Housing should take note of that.
Houses in the $35 to $50 per month class have completely disappeared from the rental market in Toronto. Many thousands of tenants are being told that the homes they occupy are being put up for sale, and after the sale takes place they are given three months notice to locate other living quarters. There are no houses to rent, and the tenant is forced, regardless of his personal circumstances or financial position, to undertake the heavy task of buying a home at an inflated price. The post-war depression will see most of the houses purchased under these circumstances taken back by the owners under foreclosure. The tenant will lose his investment and the owner will turn a neat profit.
The matter is urgent. The poor and middle classes of this and other cities are being inexorably driven by the squeeze set up by the government's lop-sided policy to buy homes on terms which are certain and sure to mean heavy losses to those least able to afford them. The remedy is to set ceilings on sale prices or residential properties, thus removing the condition where it is more to the landlord's interest to sell than to rent.
The housing situation is very serious in the area mentioned, and I hope that Wartime Housing will take some cognizance of these conditions.
The second matter that I want to bring to the attention of the minister has to do with our war effort and the speeding up of production in the war plants. As the minister is prone to ask for facts, to demand who writes letters and who says such and so, I purpose to put on the record this letter which has just come to my hand, and in due course the officers of the department can look into it. Some of the statements may be a little farfetched. If they are, I am not accountable. I do not think anything in it will harm the war effort; if for a moment I did think so it would not go on Hansard. I ask the minister to accept the remarks in the spirit in which I read them to the committee, believing that we are anxious to check each and every misadventure which happens in such a gigantic department.
The letter comes from S. Armstrong Goff, 62 Richmond Street West. Toronto. He is a constituent of mine, although I have not the pleasure of knowing him. He writes:
There is a condition which I deem of very great importance and which I think should be brought to your attention. As a practising
solicitor I receive information from clients who are working in the different war plants and it seems inconceivable to me that in some of the plants men are being laid off for part of the time because either the plant or the workmen are producing too much. This has happened within the last two months repeatedly in the de Havilland aircraft plant, and I am advised that one man at least was discharged from this plant and the reason given was that he was producing too much. I am also advised that the workmen have been laid off every week-end, usually Saturday and Sunday, for the last six *weeks and there seems to be definite indications that during the next month there will be layoffs of a week at a time. This plant is only turning out about one plane per day and it has previously turned out three and one-half to four planes per day and I am assured that it is capable of turning out five every day in the year. This is a-
I will not use his adjective.

condition if we are only working at 20 per cent capacity while a shortage of supplies is reported on the battle fronts. We must as Canadians hang our heads in shame as we witness-
The losses we have suffered. I will not read the next section. Then he continues:
I am also advised that one of the foremen in the general engineering plant at Scarborough was given instructions that he was not to produce more than 1,300 units where he had showed the ability of producing 2,000 units of work.
This is the plant I just referred to as having a housing condition.
The reason which has been given to avoid the responsibility of slackness of work is that there is a shortage of material. I cannot accept this reason since the shortage seems to be a refusal on the part of the government to give the necessary permit for these materials. Surely with the man-power, skill and natural resources which we have in this country there need be no such reason advanced. I have recently been advised by an employee-
In the same community.
-that they were held up for certain steel clips which could be purchased in the retail stores of this city. If one goes through this plant at the present time they will find the washrooms full of people loitering around and they have been told by their foremen to keep out of sight as much as possible. On one occasion an employee at the de Havilland Air Craft was required for some work and when they finally found him he was fast asleep in one of the unfinished planes along with six others who were also asleep. Surely this is not the type of thing we are paying for in taxes and government loans. . . .
One of the difficulties seems to be that a great many of the contracts from the Canadian government are on a cost plus 10 per cent basis. This is putting a premium on waste. It is quite obvious that if a company could waste $50,000 they could make a profit of $5,000 and men unfortunately are not unselfish enough to prevent them taking advantage of such a situation. No doubt the contracts should be revised and be on the basis of the contracts given by the British government which are on
War Appropriation-Supplies

the basis of a fixed price for each plane turned out. This would spur the management on to increased production rather than the demoralizing condition at the present time. I know that the latter type of contract leaves a loophole for excessive profits being made but surely the cost of any unit of work can be easily established by the proper officials.
I appreciate of course that the building of these plants was too rapid to immediately iron out all the difficulties but it seems strange that things which are so obvious to the ordinary workingman should not be taken into consideration by the management ....
It is well known that when General McNaughton inspected the war plants there was a great show of activity put on for him which must have given him an erroneous impression of the actual condition.
I am not giving you this information merely to knock the government but to find if there is Some way of spurring on our production. I can give you the details of a great many of these matters and if you deem it of sufficient importance I shall be glad to see you at your convenience when you are back in the city ....
In some correspondence which I have had with Ottawa an official has made this statement "I have found that the opposition in parliament seems particularly ineffective in any complaint they (my clients) might make and I believe that much more favourable results could be obtained by dealing directly with the department concerned".
Why are we ineffective? I think the minister knows why; I think the chairman knows why; we all know why-we are so anxious not to do anything which will injure our war effort. But here is the feeling of a constituent: we are ineffective because we do not complain.
I may say that one matter which I took up with them regarding one of the war plants was seriously considered and I spent two hours with the management. However, the matter lias not been entirely cleared up yet. I am satisfied that the Canadian people will not tolerate such conditions existing if they once become aware of them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If I may interrupt for a moment, does not my hon. friend think he takes quite a responsibility in spreading a letter like that on the record? He says he does not know the writer. I can assure my hon. friend that a number of statements in that letter are wholly untrue. Does he think it is wise to put that sort of thing on the record with his sponsorship?


Joseph Henry Harris: If I may finish my statement, I extend to the minister the same courtesy he extended to me on a previous occasion when I interrupted before he had completed his statement. I know that some of these instances are overdrawn.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Some have no foundation at all.


Joseph Henry Harris: I will take the minister's word for that. But I know that some of them must have some foundation in fact, and in that connection, inasmuch as an officer has been appointed to build up morale in this industry and iron out some of the difficulties, the government might be well advised to put at the disposal not only of these organizations but of those dealing with them, some official who is paid and whose expenses are paid by the government. Industries have such officials, openly, public relations officers. Our bureau of public information is useless and impotent with regard to a condition of affairs such as is mentioned in this letter. It is a bureau of public information; it has no dealings with the pharisees over here except to gather information and disseminate it. There is nothing in that department that is of any help in ironing out the state of affairs mentioned here by my constituent. When our friend Ralph P. Bell was mentioned in connection with an incident which was supposed at one time to have been closed and then later was opened by one of the hon. members from Vancouver and the hon. member for Cumberland, and which I now consider open; when an indiscreet letter of his came to the surface, there came to the mind of all of us the question, how many more in other departments are functioning in like manner? If work of that kind is going to push on our war effort, well and good; let it push it on, but let the facts be made public so that they can be reviewed. It is not enough for any hon. member to rise in his place and defend indiscreet actions of this kind by saying: "I have known the gentleman for ten years or fifty years, and he is an honourable man; he has push and energy and vim and vitality," and all the rest. If something indiscreet happens it is not that department only we are concerned about; we are worried about others.
I am worried about the Hull Steel and Iron Foundries, as to where the money came from to pay for those half-page advertisements. It came out of their treasury, no doubt; but when I find that they are participants in government contracts I wonder where the cost of all that advertising boosting our war effort comes from. I wonder whether it comes out of cost-plus contracts, and whether when that 5 per cent is added to the 100 per cent of cost of that work we did not pay these aircraft companies $105 in order to get $100 worth of work. I know Mr. Hirst; he has been a customer of mine and I a customer of his ever since I have been in business. He is an admirable man, a man of energy and all that, but this is not the place to speak of personalities; this is the place to discuss and lay

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down principles. All those charged with any part of our war effort must keep constantly in their minds the fact that they are discharging a public responsibility and are open to the searchlight of those in this chamber who also are responsible for serving their constituents.
When we are charged with being ineffective as an opposition, with acting as though there were no war on, let me say this. We could hold this house in session, as perhaps it ought to be held, twelve months a year, six or seven days a week, dealing with all the work the government is trying to do. But we are more anxious to serve and to help. We are not ineffective. In the main we hope that we are effective. The indiscretion of the Bell transaction which was revealed in this house is almost unbelievable. Of course it is unfortunate; I say it is inexcusable. I say the policy which was followed during the last war should have been followed in this case. At that time an hon. member of this house, enjoying the confidence of his constituents, was found to be dealing in horses being sold to the army. One of his colleagues, operating a drug business in a very small way, also was found to be selling drugs to a nearby military establishment of some kind or other. I refer to the late Mr. Garland in connection with the drug transaction, and the late DeWitt Foster in connection with the horses. What happened? They gave up their seats in this house at the request of their leader of that time; they were read out of the party. Later, of course, they regained the confidence of their constituents and found their way back into this house. They were honourable gentlemen; who will say nay to that? The person concerned in the present instance is an honourable gentleman; no one will say nay to that, but a principle is involved, and we should be very serious about it.
At four o'clock to-day I am supposed to be serving on the war expenditures committee. This is a rather innocuous and impotent sort of organization, but in our anxiety to help we are willing to serve in any way. We are not touching one-tenth of one per cent of the problems facing us, but we are glad to give whatever help we can. I ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply to make available to that committee the balance sheets of all organizations enjoying government contracts on a cost-plus basis. I ask that the minister give instructions that payments such as those gathered together by Ralph P. Bell be not permitted to be included in the balance sheets as a charge in the operation of these companies. Have that practice stopped
forthwith. I also ask that all organizations which have been advertising in support of the government's war effort, and I have in mind particularly the outstanding company in that connection in this geographical area, be reviewed in order to ascertain how the cost of such advertising is paid. I will let the matter rest there. I am sorry the hon. member for North Battleford has gone out; I wanted to say a word about that constituency, but I will wait until another occasion unless she returns to the chamber before I am finished.
My next word has to do with gasoline. I agree with what the hon. member for Brantford City had to say as to commercial travellers being reduced so suddendly to the A category. I believe this situation ought to be reviewed. I should have preferred, in this part of Ontario at least, cutting down the number of gallons permitted to all categories. I have had five or six letters from men who are not exactly commercial travellers but who are tradesmen who have to go hither and yon, who have been reduced to the A category. I think another policy should have been adopted, that of reducing the gasoline allowed to all those driving for pleasure. You might make a corresponding reduction in the other classifications, if that is necessary, but the gasoline allowed pleasure seekers should be cut down. I do not see why on Saturday afternoons, Sundays and holidays officers could not stop people Speeding along the highways in their motor cars and ask them to produce their coupon books. If they are found to be in the categories permitted a large gallonage, then put them back to A category. That is what should be done when we find them wasting gasoline on pleasure; and at the same time the A category might be reduced also.
I am going to make one further suggestion; that is, that the war expenditures committee be given by the minister full details of all capital assistance and all working capital that has been furnished by the government. Put it all on record so that we may know exactly what is going on. What I have in mind is that with industry at its present pitch in Canada it should not be necessary for us to supply very many large organizations with working capital. I believe that in the operation of their whole organization they could very well provide their own working capital. That is to say, if they have one small contract, why should they isolate that from the larger part of their business and require government working capital, when their business could very well finance its own working capital? I would
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ask that in the provision of this working capital, the very minimum amounts should be provided.
I have just one other observation. I think we should realize that we have been a little late and a little slow in a good deal of the work we have been doing. I believe the entire energy of government should be directed to the war, and we in this chamber ought to slow down on matters that have to do with reconstruction and the lectures we get from university professors as to what is going to happen after the war. Let us put all our energy into the war effort.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to say a word with respect to the remarks of the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Harris). He has conveyed the definite impression that it is the practice of the department to award contracts on a cost-plus or percentage basis; a great deal of his speech dealt with that point. I have stated in this house repeatedly that this is not the practice of the department. In very exceptional circumstances we may award a contract of that kind; I am not saying we have never done so, but it is very unusual. My hon. friend pats himself on the back for his willingness to serve on the war expenditures committee. I am not sure that this will be very much protection to us; for he has been on the committee a year now and surely he should know, the fact should have impressed itself upon him by this time, that we do not award contracts in that manner. When he states that a man can crawl inside an aeroplane, go to sleep, and make money for the company, he is very far afield indeed.
I think it is questionable practice to read in this house a letter received by the hon. member from a man he says he does not know, especially when that letter contains very damaging statements against Canadian war contractors and Canadian workmen. I think at least the hon. member ought to be able to sponsor the man who wrote the letter which, since he does not know the writer, comes to him practically as an anonymous document.


Joseph Henry Harris: It was the
thought in the letter I wanted to get across.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have heard before the statement as to great activity when General McNaughton viewed the plants. Could anything be more absurd! Those plants are running on an assembly line basis, and they could hardly speed their belts up only when General McNaughton was in the plant. They run as fast at one time as at another.
With respect to the aeroplane business, I have said before in the house that it is not

possible to schedule those plants as you can an assembly line or mass production plant, especially when the tooling process is on. The hon. member has spoken about aircraft plants reducing production. I know the plant to which he is referring, and that particular plant is closing off its old line of production in order to produce four-engine bombers. It will be some time yet before that four-engine bomber comes out of the plant and before its production will therefore be heavy. If these matters were taken up one at a time, and if denouncements were to follow a full exposure of the facts, it would be much fairer to war industry and to war workmen than to have the reading of a letter such as has been read.
I also resent bracketing Ralph Bell, in my department, with DeWitt Foster and a former member who was in the drug trade. It is quite obvious, I think, that no hon. member suggested that any of that money went into Mr. Bell's hands or into his pockets, at any time.


Joseph Henry Harris: I did not bracket them, nor did I suggest it. I did not suggest for one moment that any money was used improperly, I just told what had happened in the last war.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am glad my hon. friend has cleared up that point, and indicated that he is not bracketing Mr. Bell with those two men. Perhaps we had better let it go at that. The situation has been discussed at some length. I stated I agreed that the letter was quite improper, and when it came to my attention I took steps to correct what had been done. I think it was generally accepted by the house that it was done more by way of an effort to get on with the job than through any desire to break the rules; that that was what prompted Mr. Bell to write the letter. I make these remarks in order to correct any impression which may have been left by the observations of the hon. member.


Mr. SLAGHT:: I desire briefly to call the attention of the minister and the government to a matter which I believe to be of great importance at the moment. It has to do with a new process for the manufacture of rubber.
A few days ago I endeavoured to place a question on the order paper, but I had not given notice the day before and Mr. Speaker quite properly ruled that I should not proceed. This is the first opportunity I have had of personally bringing the matter to the minister's attention.
Before a subcommittee of the senate in Washington a few days ago Mr. Wickard, secretary of agriculture in Mr. Roosevelt's government, urged that there be an extension of

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the government's programme of making synthetic rubber by using grain alcohol produced from surplus wheat and corn. He stated that the use of 80,000,000 bushels of grain would make 200,000,000 gallons of alcohol, which in turn would produce sufficient butadiene to make 240,000 tons of synthetic rubber, or about a third of the normal needs of that great country. Mr. Wickard further told the committee that after full discussion with members of his technical staff he was convinced that immediate attention should be given to expanding their programme for the production of synthetic rubber, and that it could be accomplished in 1943-that is, next year.
We in Canada are all agreed that the rubber situation in relation to the war effort is extremely acute. In the non-war effort we find ourselves about to be more severely restricted in the use of rubber on motor vehicles. I understand some preliminary steps have already been taken, but I would urge upon the minister that he send experts in research from his own department-because we have many competent engineers- to confer with the technical advisers of Mr. Wickard who have told him that this process is feasible. We should pursue an immediate and vigorous policy, if our experts confirm that statement, in creating plants at once in Canada to convert our surplus grain first into alcohol and then into rubber.
In Canada we have at least 400,000,000 bushels of wheat stored in our elevators. We have carried a similar surplus for many years. Although somewhat restricted, this year's crop will no doubt add to that surplus. Surely if this information be accurate-and I have investigated Mr. Wielcard's reputation-we should proceed. Mr. Wickard is secretary of agriculture, and he is also an engineer who attained high academic degrees. He is a practical man who has been successful in his own business. This is a matter of such great importance that I suggest we should rush our investigation. If the process is found to be sound we should immediately divert some of the money in these estimates to the installation of substantial plant facilities.
If 80,000,000 bushels of grain produces 240,000 tons of rubber, and if that be sufficient to supply one-third of the normal needs of the United States, then 40,000,000 bushels of wheat from our surplus used for that purpose would more than supply the entire needs of Canada for a whole year for all war purposes, and would leave a plentiful surplus for use on our own civilian commercial vehicles. In my opinion this offers to the government one of the greatest
opportunities for quick and aggressive action. I suggest that it put money into at least one large trial plant, and then follow it up so that the acute rubber situation may be relieved.


Mr. MacNICOL:: I wish to speak briefly about the production of magnesium metal.
Anyone who has been associated with the iron and steel industry for many years, as I have been, naturally would come in contact with questions connected with magnesium metal. At the conclusion of my brief remarks I am going to ask a number of questions, and I shall now send the minister a copy of them. He may not wish to answer to-day, but if he chooses to do so, he will have the list before him. If, on the other hand, he wishes to wait until to-morrow, I shall be content.
Magnesium metal is not a new metal, as many would be inclined to believe. During the last war magnesium metal was made at Shawinigan Falls in the province of Quebec by one of the most expert engineers in Canada of that time. He was well qualified in connection with everything pertaining to the subject of magnesium metal. It is a most necessary war product and perhaps Canada should have been making it or at least starting to make it before war broke out.
It is not the lightest metal as most people believe, although it is the lightest commercial metal now produced, being only two-thirds the weight of aluminum. Lithium is the lightest metal. After I decided to go to Great Slave lake I had a discussion with an engineer, and he told me that I would find a great deposit of spodumene, the raw product for lithium. However, when I reached there I found the deposit was over on the north shore, too far for me to go. Lithium is the lightest metal, being one-half the weight of magnesium metal, but it is not produced commercially to-day. I believe we are now using from one to two thousand pounds of magnesium metal per plane, depending upon the type of plane being manufactured. Magnesium metal is used in the manufacture of bombs. It is used in the manufacture of planes for the very sound reason that it is so much lighter than aluminum and therefore permits the plane to travel faster and farther and carry heavier loads. Anything the government is prepared to do in connection with the production of magnesium metal I am sure will have the support of this house.
Last year, I believe on June 14, I asked the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar) if anything was being done in Canada in connection with producing magesium metal. He stated that some distance up the Gatineau river a plant was being erected. The next
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thing I heard about the production, of magnesium metal in Canada was a statement in the press that a plant was being built some distance west of Ottawa. What I am interested in particularly is whether a thorough investigation has been made into the system or process to be used to produce magnesium metal in this country. Engineers in Canada have developed processes. Some time ago I was taken over to a plant in Hamilton by the associate editor of the Monetary Times, Mr. H. E. Willmot, a very bright gentleman who makes a number of investigations into matters of this kind. This w'as a small pilot plant where a process was being developed. I am not just sure where the plant was located but it was not very far from the gun factory being operated by the Westinghouse company. In this plant Mr. Ralph Keemle, in my judgment one of the best engineers in the country in this line, was producing magnesium metal by a thermic process. I do not know whether the government investigated this process, but it has been tested by the university of Toronto and, I was informed, commented upon favourably in the press of the United States.
Before an investment of $2,500,000 or more is made in a process to manufacture magnesium metal, I believe experienced engineers, men who know this subject, should be invited to advise as to the best process to be used to manufacture magnesium metal. In the United States the WPB is now the headquarters of a special branch or board that has gone into and is going into most carefully all the processes in use in that country. They are undertaking to produce magnesium metal in a very large way. Whether we have done that in Canada, I do not know; but, if not, I think we should. The matter is too important not to be thoroughly investigated before money is invested in a plant. I do not say that this matter has not been investigated; I do not know, and perhaps the minister will tell us.
According to Business Week of January 10, 1942, there are now several companies in the United States manufacturing magnesium metal. The principal manufacturer is the Dow Chemical company. I believe the system used by this company was used at Shawinigan Falls during the last war, although I make that statement only from what I was told by an engineer. The Dow Chemical company system is well known and has been used continuously in the United States. The Globe and Mail of May 14 contains this paragraph:
Up to now the magnesium used in United States fighting aeroplanes has come from the brine wells and sea water plants of the Dow Chemical Company.
The Dow Chemical company have always produced magnesium metal either from brine

wells or from sea water. They produce in a big way. This year they have projected to produce some 63,000 tons. There is nothing new about the system used by this company. It has been thoroughly tried out and has given splendid results. Whether it has been investigated here, I do not know. Another large producer is the Basic Magnesium corporation which produces .magnesium from magnesite, which is said to contain more pure magnesium than any other matter. This company is undertaking to produce 56,000 tons this year. The Diamond Alkali company and the Mathieson Alkali works in the United States produce magnesium metal from dolomite. That is what the Hamilton inventor, Mr. Ralph Keemle, used. There are vast quantities of dolomite between Hamilton and Georgian bay and the magnesium metal is produced by the thermic process.
During the last war there was an engineer in Ottawa whose name has just slipped my mind but who was sent out to investigate the dolomite to be found at Portage du Fort. He reported that at that point in Quebec there were over a billion tons of brucite, which is very much like dolomite but perhaps a little stronger. This raw material is available for the production of magnesium metal, and there are electrical potentialities in the Ottawa river nearby. Electrical power is needed in the production of magnesium metal. International Minerals and Chemical corporation uses brine and sea water to produce magnesium metal, the same as does the Dow Chemical company.
There has been a good deal in the press lately about the Permanente plant in California which appears to be going into production. I have an article here, taken from the Globe and Mail of May 14, which says:
The entire United States supply has been coming from a salt water process. But now in San Francisco area a plant is in operation successfully extracting magnesium from dolomite rock.
There is nothing new in that because, as is well known, dolomite is the basis of several processes for producing magnesium metal.
All I ask is that before Canada embarks upon an expenditure of from two to five million dollars to make magnesium metal by what is called the ferrosilicon process, every tried and true system first be investigated as well as the process developed in Hamilton by Mr. Ralph Keemle, known as the thermic system.
I read a few days ago that the Tennessee Valley Authority in the United States, which I presume is under the direction of the government of the United States, is going to produce magnesium metal from olivine. That

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is a chrysolite with a good deal of magnesium in it, indeed more than in anything else except magnesite itself. What process are the Tennessee Valley Authority going to use? It is a tremendous corporation, and I presume that before going into production it will investigate every available process of producing magnesium metal. What is Canada doing?
I read an item in the press some time ago which announced the production of magnesium metal in Canada. It was a Canadian Press dispatch, dated March 17. I quote it:
Formation of a new government-owned company to be known as Wartime Metals Corporation was announced to-day by Munitions Minister Howe. The new company, said Mr. Howe, will assume responsibility for arrangements that have been made for the production in Canada of metallic magnesium and for any other emergency projects that may be undertaken for the production of war metals.
Between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000 will be spent by the federal governmenton this project.
Another item in the press on March 21 states that the amount to be spent will be S2,600,000. In either case a very large sum of money is to be spent.
I have been told that Mr. Keemle, of Hamilton, believes a 2,000-ton plant using his process would cost $500,000. We read in the press that the plant which the government has in mind putting up at a cost of between two and five million dollars will not produce very much more magnesium metal. I read this in a Canadian Press dispatch, dated May 17:
Actual production at Haley's Corners is expected to begin by mid-summer with an output from the initial units of two tons of the metal per day. As additional units are built this rate will be progressively stepped up to ten tons per day. Later twenty tons a day will be produced.
Producing twenty tons a day for 365 days a year would give a total production of 7,300 tons from an investment, according to this dispatch, of between five and six million dollars.
According to what I read in the press-and that is the only place where we can get information about it-the process to be used by the government is the ferrosilicon process. I am not intimating for one moment that the ferrosilicon process may not be the very best possible process. We have not heard anything about it officially. I know the minister will likely say something about it when he replies. Perhaps it is the best possible process, but I should like to hear what the minister can tell us about it.
I would also ask the minister to tell us about the set-up of the company which was
originally known as the Dominion Magnesium company; later the name was changed, or a subsidiary company was formed called the Wartime Metals corporation, with 150,000 shares of stock, which is to be divided between several companies, one-third, or 50,000 shares going to Bobjo and God's Lake mines; another one-third or 50,000 shares going to the Moneta Porcupine mines, and another one-third, or 50,000 shares, going to Ventures, Limited. Where does the government come in? If the government puts up all the money, how is it that these companies possess all the shares? It has been intimated in the press that a good deal of experimental work has been done in this connection by government engineers of the national research council. Then where does the government come in on the shares? How do these companies come in for something that was produced by the national research council I presume, on government time and at government expense? If the government has initiated this process, and it is, I hear, an excellent process; I have no reason for thinking otherwise-why does the government not take the whole thing over and produce magnesium metal itself. It is immaterial to me personally who produces it, but I should like to have some information on the set-up.
I shall conclude by asking some questions, but first let me say that I do not want the minister to feel that I am in any way criticizing him or passing any unfair comment upon this matter. I would not do that. I am simply looking for information, because I feel it is my duty to do so, having been for a long time associated with the iron and steel industry and having had a lengthy experience with many different kinds of metals. I am going to ask these questions which the minister may answer to-day or when he sees fit:
1.	Was the ferrosilicon process evolved by national research council, in the national research council quarters, at government expense?
2.	If so, would Dominion Magnesium have to obtain the consent of the minister to sell this process in the United States? It was intimated in one newspaper that that may be done, although I have not read of any United States company using the process. Nevertheless one or more United States companies may be using the process.
3.	If the dominion advances, $2,600,000 for a plant to use the ferrosilicon process, how is it that the 150,000 shares of the Dominion Magnesium company are owned by the mining companies I have named?
4.	If any profits accrue, to whom do they go?
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5.	Has the department (a) the percentage purity of ferrosilicon needed in the process to be used, and (b) the number of pounds of ferrosilicon needed .to produce one pound of metallic magnesium in the process to be used?
6.	What is the estimated power consumption in kilowatt hours to make one pound of ferrosilicon?
7.	What is the estimated power consumption in kilowatt hours to make one pound of magnesium metal?
8.	Where is the electric power to come from? There is no available power around here, unless it can come from the Gatineau or unless the Ottawa river is dammed at Carillon or somewhere further up the river; and this process takes a very large amount of electric power.
9.	What is the cost per pound of magnesium metal if made by the process the government has adopted?
I am informed by the Hamilton people that they can produce magnesium metal for ten cents a pound. I do not know whether they can or not. If their system has been investigated, I am sure the department would know.
As a member of this house I am anxious that we should produce magnesium metal as cheaply as possible, according to the best process possible, and as quickly as possible.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Several questions have been asked, and perhaps it will be more convenient if. I keep fairly up to date.
First, as to the use of wheat for the manufacture of rubber. I announced in the house or in the press a month or two ago that we are embarking on a large programme for the manufacture of synthetic rubber. We expect to spend around $40,000,000 for the purpose, and our experts have been at work on the project for some weeks.
Synthetic rubber of the buna type, which has been agreed upon as a desirable type to replace natural rubber, of which it has practically all the qualities, is made of two ingredients. One is butadiene and the other is stearine. Stearine is made from the products of coke ovens, and is quite a process in itself. Butadiene can be made in several ways, one of which-from petroleum-we have been investigating up to this time, and to which we are very favourably disposed. By cracking petroleum by a certain process we can produce butadiene and several other products. An alternative method is to make butadiene from alcohol. Alcohol, of course, is made from wheat or some other cereal by a fermentation process. 
We are collaborating with the United States on this problem. The petroleum process was favoured above all others. I may say that these processes are by no means perfected on this continent. The best information available indicated that the manufacture of butadiene from petroleum was a cheaper and more efficient method than by the use of alcohol. The study of production from alcohol has been advanced recently. Not long ago I asked an experienced Canadian chemist, president of the Ontario foundation, to go to the United States and collect all available information on the manufacture of butadiene from alcohol. I talked with him on the telephone to-day just before I came in the chamber, and learned that he is to be here next Tuesday with one or two experts from the United States to give his report. His thought is that the production of butadiene from alcohol can be brought about more quickly than from petroleum, and his suggestion over the telephone I took to be that the two processes be combined; that is, that a portion of our requirements would be provided from alcohol and a portion from petroleum. In any event I wish to assure the hon. member for Parry Sound that we are keeping very close watch on developments in both fields, and we hope that the solution we adopt will be the best available.
In the matter of magnesium metal, of course the uses for magnesium metal in this war have grown by leaps and bounds. Being a light metal, stronger than aluminum, it is used extensively in the manufacture of aeroplane engines and certain fittings of aeroplanes, and it also has an extensive use in the manufacture of incendiary bombs. The known and proved processes-there are two -for the manufacture of magnesium are: the Dow process, mentioned by the hon. member for Davenport, which has been principally used on this continent, and the magnesium electron process, which has been more generally used in Great Britain. The latter process originated in Germany.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is that the one they call Murex?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know. I have not heard it called by that name; I have always called it the magnesium electron process. The product is, of course, exactly the same by either process; it is pure magnesium metal. Both processes require a very large capital investment, and both require considerable time to build.
At the outbreak of the war there was a great expansion of both processes. The Dow

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Chemical have expanded their production many times, and Magnesium Electron are building a very large development at Las Vegas, California and Nevada.
It has been the feeling of those who know the chemistry of magnesium that there is a better and more efficient way of producing magnesium than by the chemical process, and for several years experiments have been going on with a view of production by a thermal process. Several thermal processes have been developed. Magnesium Electron have their own process in England; it has been under experiment, but they have never brought it into successful production. The plant at Permanente mentioned by my hon. friend employs another thermal process. I am glad to have his assurance that the plant is now producing metal.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It was so reported in the newspaper.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know that it has been on the point of production for a considerable time, but I have not heard that it is in actual commercial production. The difficulty in the thermal process is not in making the magnesium but in collecting it. If a faucet is turned, instead of getting a liquid we get flame, and the result is a very highly divided metal which is inflammable the minute it is touched by oxygen. The difficulty has been to collect the metal after it is manufactured in this final, divided form. General McNaughton undertook the study of the thermal process some years ago, and experiments have been carried on in our own laboratories for a considerable time. Doctor Pidgeon did develop a process which was entirely practical in the laboratory. Of course it is difficult to use a process direct from the laboratory. By what means I do not know, but a group of mining men was formed to prove the so-called Pidgeon process. The company was called Dominion Magnesium. Subscriptions were obtained from various mining companies. I think around $50,000 was expended in building in Ottawa a fullsized unit. A full-sized furnace has been installed and vacuum tubes have been developed to collect the magnesium. The plant has been in operation here for some time. It has been making magnesium on a commercial scale, and that magnesium has been sold as metal for use in aeroplane construction.
When we decided to manufacture magnesium we first looked at the chemical process. We investigated the Dow process, and the
magnesium electron process, and a new process in which the Consolidated Mining and Smelting corporation were interested.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Was the Keemle process
investigated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, if you can call it a process; it has never been proved. The difficulty with all of these processes was that the capital cost was enormous I think some $10,000,000 for a production of 5,000 tons per annum.
We were also faced with the fact that the
chemical process is an obsolescent process. It seemed that we should risk something to get a satisfactory process rather than take a process that would produce an expensive magnesium that would place Canada at a disadvantage with other countries.
We investigated the Pidgeon process very thoroughly. We had experts from New York *-the best metallurgists we could find who looked into the process and gave it their blessing. We had here an expert from England who was not sympathetic to the process, but he also recommended it. It seemed to him that the process had proved itself. We decided that we would go ahead with the Pidgeon process. The patents were owned by Dominion Magnesium company-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Were those patents
obtained on the results achieved in our own laboratories?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: How could you get a patent?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Doctor Pidgeon, who developed the process, is an officer and a shareholder of the company. What arrangements were made with the national research council I do not know; I never inquired.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is he an employee of the government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not now. He was at one time. I presume the national research council were compensated. However, I simply took the patents as they were. I discussed the matter with Dominion Magnesium company. The company offered to do the engineering on a full-scale process. Obviously the next stage is a full-scale plant, and they offered to do the engineering of the plant without charge to the government and to put their patents and other assets at the disposal of the government for the duration of the war and six months thereafter without cost. The plant is being built by and will be owned by
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the federal government. The land, the quarry and the plant itself are owned by the federal government. Dominion Magnesium are furnishing the engineering, and the understanding is that an arrangement will be made that Dominion Magnesium will operate the plant for the government on a management fee basis. I should be glad to lay on the table the contractual arrangements between the government and Dominion Magnesium.
This transaction has very little to do with Wartime Metals Limited. Wartime Metals Limited is a wholly-government-owned corporation, set up to act for the government in several mining developments which the government has in hand or under examination. We are developing a chrome property in the eastern townships and are examining other properties with the thought of developing them for scarce strategic metals.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Anything in iron ore?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, we have undertaken
nothing in iron ore. Dominion Metals has supervision over the construction of the magnesium plant and will have supervision over the contractual relations with Dominion Magnesium, and with the operation of the plant. But I would emphasize the fact that the plant is owned by the government and will be operated by the government through a management fee contract with expert operators. So that the Dominion Magnesium company will make no profit out of the government.
I am not certain, but it is my impression that the contract also provides that Dominion Magnesium will manage the plant for the government without fee. I will lay the contract on the table.
After we decided to use that process the United States took a great interest in it. To-day I am told they are investing about $100,000,000 in plants built under the Pidgeon
process.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The government of the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. It is government capital, although, just as Dominion Magnesium are acting for us, various firms in the United States are acting as agents for the United States government. It indicates that the pioneering work done by Doctor Pidgeon and by the research laboratories will bear splendid fruit if the process turns out as we expect. Answering the hon. member's questions:
"2. Would Dominion Magnesium have to obtain the consent of the minister to sell this

process in the United States?" The answer is no. The patents are owned by them. However, I understand that a very reasonable arrangement has been worked out, on a small royalty basis, which is quite satisfactory to the United States.
"3. If the dominion advances $2,600,000 for
plant to use the ferrosilicon process, how is it that the 150,000 shares of the Dominion Magnesium company are owned by the mining companies I have named?" I may say that the advance of $2,600,000 is to build a plant for the government. The ownership of the magnesium company is with the companies that subscribed to the development cost of the process.
"4. If any profits accrue, to whom do they go?" The answer is that there will be no profits. The government plant will be operated at cost.
"5. Has the department (a) the percentage purity of ferrosilicon needed in the process to be used?" To the best of my information it is not a ferrosilicon process; it is thermal reduction of dolomite.


John Ritchie MacNicol: According to the newspapers it is ferrosilicon.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think that is correct. There is no ferrosilicon in it that I know of. We always call it a thermal process, from brucite or dolomite. A plant is being put in to manufacture magnesite from brucite, which is the first stage. We are taking magnesite from an operation in Hull until the quarry operation is further advanced at the location of the plant near Renfrew.
As to (b), the number of pounds of ferrosilicon required to produce one pound of magnesium, there again I think my hon. friend is mistaken. In regard to the estimated power consumption, all I can say is that we are building a plant to turn out ten tons a day, and we are using about 18,000 horsepower. That is about all I can tell my hon. friend at the moment. Of course this is not a process that has been demonstrated on a large scale. When I am asked the production in pounds per day, I cannot say.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Then it is more or less in the nature of a pilot plant?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A pilot plant is one thing, and a large scale operation is something else. I do not wish to be too specific about costs. They depend on the life of the furnaces and the tubes, very largely, and that has yet to be demonstrated in the large-scale operation. Then my hon. friend asked where the electric

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power comes from. The area is served by the Ontario hydro-electric power commission, and a new development is being carried out there.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Above High Falls?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, but there is quite sufficient power available at the moment.


Mr. McNIVEN:: By whom is the power plant being constructed!?


Clarence Decatur Howe: By the Ontario hydro-electric commission. Then I was asked as to the cost per pound of the magnesium produced by this process. I will be very anxious to learn that, too, but we think it will be cheaper than the chemical process, and the development will be brought in many months sooner than it could have been if the chemical process had been used. We expect to get into production by July.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is there no estimate of the cost per pound? I read in one report 19 cents and in another 38 cents.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The market price of magnesium to-day is around 33 or 34 cents, buying it from existing sources. We expect to get it for about half that, but I would not care to be too specific about it.


Liguori Lacombe: Mr. Chairman, the aims mentioned in the resolution now under study will not be achieved until the government ceases to hinder our agricultural production by exempting from military training farmers, farmers' sons and the farm labour so essential to our first line of defence, which is agriculture. If the farmer is to be drafted into the army and have all his requests for postponement of training rejected, I fear that we are facing disaster. Why does not the government formally instruct military camp commanders to forward without delay to the proper boards the requests for postponement submitted by farmer draftees? There have been unpardonable delays in the forwarding of these very legitimate applications. Many are the aged or sick famrers still waiting in vain for the help they need to cultivate their land. This assistance is often so late in coming that sowing time and even harvest time may have gone by before the farmer's son can obtain the few weeks' leave so essential to agricultural production. The resolution which this committee is discussing at present provides for the granting to His Majesty of sums aggregating more than two billion dollars in the interest of our war effort. That is the sole aim of this measure. Indeed, each paragraph of this resolution calls for certain estimates as a result of the existence of a state of war and in the interest of our war effort. How is it possible
to pursue this effort effectively unless we take the means to protect agricultural production, without which our army and the civil population of this country will go hungry? Why not establish in each Canadian county exemption boards for the purpose of reviewing the merits of all applications submitted to them? They could render their decisions accordingly. How many times have I not asked the government to do this in fairness to our farmers, to their sons and to the farm labour without which there can be no agriculture, Canada's most valuable contribution to the war effort and to the defence of this country?
My remarks apply also to the workers occupying essential jobs in the munition factories of Canada. Many are the young graduates of our best technical schools, who have been called up under the mobilization act. I know a certain number of young craftsmen who had acquired very valuable experience in our war plants, but who had to leave their jobs and report for training. Who is there to believe that a mechanic, an expert machinist, an experienced solderer, can be replaced adequately by an apprentice, or by what we commonly call a "dimwit."
It is ridiculous. Since when is it possible for a mere nobody to substitute his ignorance to the knowledge and experience of a thoroughly practical professional who is well prepared by serious study and hard work to solve mechanical problems which, at times, are so complicated? I have urged, in this house, the exemption from military service of workers who are indispensable to our munition plants production. All my efforts have been unsuccessful. These workers are still being called up for training.
With the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Roy), I urged that we refrain from calling up all persons who are essential to the fisheries industry. Here again our efforts have been of no avail. Nevertheless, our fishermen contribute a large share to the feeding of the army and civilian populations. I suppose that my remarks, made in the best interests of our country, will command the usual attention. Why should I care. I shall have done my duty. I shall not be responsible for a sin of omission. Neither shall I bear the shame of having neglected the defence of Canada, in allowing the government to ruin agriculture and industries which are essential to the safety of the homeland.
Here is another subject I wish to deal with: the pay allowed to our army, navy and air force. As long ago as January 28 last, I insisted on a higher pay for the army. I suggested that it be allowed $4 a day. I renew my request in this connection.
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Mr. DUPUIS:: Would the hon. member allow a question?


Liguori Lacombe: If it is similar to those the hon. member generally asks, I am sorry, I will not allow it.


Vincent Dupuis: Does the hon. member know that a soldier cost the government $11 a day, besides his pay?


Liguori Lacombe: Certainly. It has been computed time and again. But I know that certain war plant superintendents receive $20 a day.


Vincent Dupuis: They have to pay 75 per cent in excess profits tax.


Liguori Lacombe: Is it fair for our soldiers to get an insignificant pay when war industry employees are sometimes paid as much as $8, $10 and $12 a day? I refer here to skilled workers and not to some superintendents who get as much as twice those amounts. The real soldiers are not sparing of their blood. Their country, for which they are willing to lay down their lives or risk their future if they survive the conflict, should not be so stingy in their remuneration, when money is plentiful and war contracts are distributed by the thousands to contractors who are building up colossal wealth. You might ask: *where shall we find all the money necessary to allow such a high rate of pay? I shall give you and the hon. member for Chambly-Rouville (Mr. Dupuis) the same answer: tax, tax to the extreme limit the war profiteers who have sold and are still selling foodstuffs to our soldiers at a profit of 200 per cent.


Vincent Dupuis: Name them.


Liguori Lacombe: Canada Packers Co. If my hon. friend will follow me, I shall give him plenty of details in a moment. Tax those unscrupulous companies who, last fall, stored potatoes costing them 40 cents and 50 cents a bag, when bought from the farmers of Chambly-Rouville and Laval-Two Mountains, to sell them in the military camps for $2.50 and $2.75. Tax the millionaire who accumulates gold while our soldiers are shedding their blood. Tax the friends of the government, the suppliers of every kind whose most ardent hope is that the war may last so that they may increase their wealth.
There are some who keep their own counsel, and others who dare give utterance to their thoughts. Bring taxes to bear on the extreme inequality of worldly goods, such as the allied war aims, His Majesty the King and the Archbishop of Westminster have even recently condemned. Tax to the utmost the restricted group of capitalists who have for
*Mr. Lacombe.]
years exercised a dominating influence over economics, finance and government in Canada.
Should this appeal for social justice be not heard, should this call for justice and equity remain unanswered, what is to become of democracy? The question carries its own answer.
As regards the war effort, the province of Quebec has done her duty, her whole duty. Thousands and thousands of her sons have enlisted in the army, in the navy, and in the air force. She has amply contributed to the war loans. And when I urged, just now, the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to give our province the cabinet representation she is entitled to, I did so in the name of my fellow-citizens who have never failed through the years to shower honours and marks of confidence upon the Prime Minister. Quebec is the mother province in this country. Quebec is the pioneer province. She is a constituent element in the Canadian confederation. The Prime Minister is free to joke and make amusing remarks. We do not view the matter in that light, however. The hour is altogether too serious, sacrifices are too great for such an unjust treatment of our province to be perpetuated. I am not asking for any concession from the Prime Minister, but only for what is rightfully due. Since Quebec is engaged in this conflict, as is every other province in this dominion, the Prime Minister should treat her with justice and give her a voice in his cabinet. The recognition of this rightful claim is long overdue. In so far as I am personally concerned, despite the innuendos from the leader of the government, I have no wish for any post in his conscrip-tionist cabinet. I do wonder, however, whether the hon. member for Chambly-Rouville does not harbour fond hopes of his own.


Vincent Dupuis: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to say a word this afternoon but in answer to the hon. member from the unique party, I am forced to do so for a few minutes.


Liguori Lacombe: The Canadian party.


Vincent Dupuis: The unique-not the union -party. He is a one-man power, as has been suggested. I do not wish to take much time, but I shall have to say a few words in French.


Mr. DLTPUIS (Translation):: I had no intention of speaking this afternoon. My hon. friend can give free rein, at this time, to his demagogic leanings. My hon. friend-


Liguori Lacombe: I rise to a point of order. The hon. member for Chambly-Rouville, is stating that I am making statements as a

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demagogue. According to standing order 41 he is not permitted to do so, and I ask him to withdraw.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: What were you making?


Liguori Lacombe: I want a decision on the point, from the chair. I submit the hon. member must withdraw.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. McCann):: I did not hear the term used.


Vincent Dupuis: If the expression does not suit the hon. member I will use another word.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I can give you a dandy.


Vincent Dupuis: I can say to [DOT]the hon. member, if he does not relish the term "demagogic"-


Liguori Lacombe: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. The hon. member has not withdrawn his remarks and is making another speech at this time.


George Alexander Cruickshank: That is more than you did.


Vincent Dupuis: I wish to reply to my hon. friend. He is opposed to my using the term "demagogic". I was merely going by what he said. Naturally the truth is always painful.


Liguori Lacombe: The hon. member for Chambly-Rouville (Mr. Dupuis) is stating now that he told the truth a few moments ago, but he has not withdrawn.


Vincent Dupuis: The whole thing is settled. I a>m sorry to have entered into this discussion.


Liguori Lacombe: It is too bad.


Vincent Dupuis: It is too bad that my
hon. friend should take up the time of this committee by making the speech he has. Hon. members will be able to judge its worth by the translation to-morrow.
(Translation):	My hon. friend said a
moment ago that our soldiers were underpaid and that they should receive $4 a day. This is rather strange coming from the hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains (Mr. Lacombe) who has, on more than one occasion, stated his opposition to any participation in this war. Can it be that he has changed his mind on the subject? The hon. member is inconsistent. I fail to understand the reason for his acting in such a way. I know he has gone over to the other side of the house-


Liguori Lacombe: I rise to a point of order. The hon. member is making a second speech in answer to my speech.


Angus MacInnis: That is quite in order.


James Joseph McCann: What is the hon. gentleman's point of order?


Vincent Dupuis: He has none.


Liguori Lacombe: Go ahead.


Vincent Dupuis: I was saying, Mr. Chairman, that my hon. friend the member for Laval-Two Mountains (Mr. Lacombe) is inconsistent when he requests that our soldiers be paid $4 a day, after he has formed a party of which he is the sole member and leader-


Liguori Lacombe: With the people behind me.


Vincent Dupuis: With the people who subscribe so generously When he passes the hat around. My hon. friend is inconsistent since he opposed participation of any kind, which means that there should be no army, navy or air force. Now he urges that we pay our soldiers $4 a day, although he knows perfectly well that it costs the country about $11 a day to keep a soldier in the army.
He has referred to trusts. I am convinced that there is not, in this house, a single member favouring capitalists who abuse their powers. The hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains is not alone in condemning the attitude of capitalists who misuse their money and impose upon the working class. The hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains should be the first to state before this house and the whole country that the man who has made the greatest contribution, through his writings and his deeds, to improve the conditions of the working class and repress the endeavours of capitalists against the worker, is the Right Honourable Prime Minister of Canada, whom he is now endeavouring to discredit.


Liguori Lacombe: May I ask the hon. member a question?


Vincent Dupuis: Certainly.


Liguori Lacombe: Would he tell me in what way I have discredited the Prime Minister in the speech I have just made. Let him quote my words.


James Joseph McCann: I understand that both hon. gentlemen are speaking about matters that have nothing to do with the Department of Munitions and Supply. While I cannot rule that they are strictly out of order, I suggest to hon. members that they take advantage of the presence of the Minister of Munitions and Supply and deal with matters that have to do with his department. This is not a rule or regulation, but it is an arrangement which was .made and which should be observed.
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Mr. HATFIELD:: I should like to ask the minister if a car owner living in New Brunswick near the Quebec border can drive across the border and get full value for his gasoline coupons?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry but I cannot answer that question. I know of no regulation to prevent it.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I understand that car owners living in the northern part of New Brunswick are driving from two to forty miles to the Quebec border in order to buy gasoline, and thus they receive three gallons more per coupon than they would in New Brunswick. They are wasting from one to two gallons of gas, and using up tires, in order to fill their tanks, receiving from six to eight gallons more. I should like to ask the minister when we can expect some relief from this discrimination between the provinces.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend can help us with the submarine sinkings-I notice that last Friday we lost the largest tanker we had in the Canadian fleet

I may be able to answer his question. I am sorry, but I am not conducting Germany's war.


Heber Harold Hatfield: It is not the fault of the people of New Brunswick that we are losing tankers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is just too bad, isn't it? It is not the fault of the province.


Mr. BROOKS:: In connection with this same matter, the minister accused me yesterday of casting aspersions because I suggested that there were reports that gasoline had been shipped from the maritime provinces to Quebec, and that if such were the case the maritime provinces should be treated the same as Quebec. Quebec is receiving five gallons per coupon while we in the maritime provinces have been reduced to two gallons per coupon. I did not have any clippings before me at that time, but I have since received a clipping from the Halifax Chronicle dated May 18. This article quotes no less an authority than the premier of Nova Scotia. It reads:
"We in Nova Scotia, I think, have demonstrated our willingness to cooperate in the war effort but cannot accept arbitrary discrimination," the telegram states. The premier recalls that, "with a refinery at our door gasoline for the maritimes has always been available at the lowest possible price." In referring to "discrimination" the telegram states "authorities claimed they were obliged to ship gasoline _ to Quebec at a loss thus preventing discrimination against Quebec. To-day, however, the situation is reversed and because there is a shortage at the Halifax refinery we are not on a par with the rest of Canada."

I have just received a telegram from Saint John. Naturally the people are much concerned, and they are not altogether satisfied with the explanation the minister made yesterday in this committee regarding the shortage of gasoline in the maritime provinces. The telegram is addressed to me and reads:
We have to-day wired Hon. C. D. Howe as follows with further reference to our unanswered telegram and your statement in the House of Commons yesterday. We insist and are entitled to know why your department reduced coupon value. Your statements yesterday do not explain situation in view of the following. It is our understanding that at a meeting held in Halifax on May 11, coupons would not be cut as oil stocks would permit full coupon value for essentia] users, leaving balance for non-essentials. Why then your unexplained action? Was it done at the request of any oil company? Who were tank cars shipped to, and does the number exceed their nominal shipment by this means of transportation ?
New Brunswick Automobile Dealers Association, J. W. O'Brien, President.
Saint John Automobile Dealers Association, R. M. Lawson, President.
The situation could hardly change so drastically between May 11 and May 17, the latter being the date, I think, when the unit was reduced from five gallons to two. I think the minister owes an explanation to the people of the maritime provinces beyond the brief explanation that he gave yesterday. As has been stated by members from the maritime provinces, if it is absolutely necessary that we have to suffer in the interests of this war effort we are willing to do so, but we do not feel that we should be asked to suffer more than any other part of the dominion. We are certainly bearing our fair share of the burden of this war down in those small provinces. Indeed, I do not think any portion of Canada can claim to have done more than we have done, if as much. In justice to the maritime provinces I think the minister should answer some of the questions asked in the telegram which I have just read, and which I will send over to him, and I would ask him to enlarge upon the oil situation in particular as far as the maritime provinces are concerned.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am surprised to hear it
suggested that either I am or any of my officers are deliberately trying to keep the maritime provinces from getting gasoline. The situation is this. The maritimes are served from the Halifax refinery, as stated by the premier of Nova Scotia. Unfortunately a refinery does not produce gasoline unless crude oil is put in at the other end of the refinery, and the difficulty is to get crude oil at that point.

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The sinkings along the Atlantic coast in the first two weeks of April were appalling, so serious that major shipping did not move for ten days following. If we had had five times as many tankers as we had, it would not have helped us because they were all tied up in harbours between south America and Nova Scotia. We are moving them out again, but as announced in the paper this morning the largest tanker we owned was sunk last Friday with considerable loss of life. Every ocean tanker that we have is in service to Halifax, and we are asking for all the help we can get from the maritime commission, who are facing exactly the same situation in New York state and the New England states that we have in the maritime provinces. The Portland-Montreal pipeline has been shut down for three weeks and we have had to depend on feeding Montreal from Sarnia. We have diverted all our tank-car space to Halifax. In addition, we had to move petroleum products from Sarnia and from Montreal to Halifax. I say quite frankly that we are not moving gasoline. We think it more important to supply the navy. We are moving heavy fuel oil and light fuel oil as best we can, and we are protecting the naval situation on the Atlantic coast and also the aviation situation. I do not know of anything that can be done that is not being done to get supplies of petroleum to the maritime provinces. The situation is exactly the same in New England.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Are tankers being used to carry supplies from Montreal to the maritimes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are tankers on the way to the maritimes from Montreal. Naturally there is no source of supply in Montreal. The source of supply is the pipeline at Sarnia. Before we can move very much gasoline or oil from Montreal we have to move it from Sarnia to Montreal, and that takes tankers.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: In Montreal and the province of Quebec the people are allowed the full unit of gasoline, five gallons. Could not the people of Montreal and the province of Quebec be asked to make a little sacrifice so that some of that gas could be sent to the maritime provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: How would it help the maritime provinces if we have not transportation to take it there? It is a transportation problem. There is plenty of gasoline in the wrong place. If we have gasoline in Ontario, would it be of any assistance to reduce the unit from five to two gallons if we have not transportation to put any more gasoline into the maritimes?
Mr. O'BRIEN: Would it not be possible to divert to the maritime provinces, say one hundred cars destined from Sarnia to Quebec?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Every car we have is on the way to the maritime provinces loaded with oil.
Mr. O'BRIEN: Assume that a thousand cars are moving into Quebec to-day from Sarnia to supply gasoline at the full unit rate of five gallons. Could not one hundred of those cars be sent to the maritime provinces if the unit in Quebec province was reduced from five to, say four gallons? Would that not be possible?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If we are using all the equipment we have for the maritime provinces, you cannot get any more. We are trying to meet the maritime situation. It is not the automobile owners we are worrying about at all. We have much more serious worries. But we are operating every bit of transportation we have for sending oil to the maritime provinces, and operating from the nearest point where we have a supply of oil.
Mr. O'BRIEN: Perhaps the minister did not understand my question. If one hundred out of, say one thousand cars which are being used to service the province of Quebec-


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have eight hundred tank cars in this area, and they are all on their way to the maritime provinces.
Mr. O'BRIEN: Every car?	.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Every car.
Mr. O'BRIEN: With fuel oil?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
Mr. O'BRIEN: How is Montreal being serviced to-day with gasoline from Sarnia?


Clarence Decatur Howe: By tankers.
Mr. O'BRIEN: Boats.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
Mr. O'BRIEN: Are any railway cars being used to take gasoline from Sarnia to Quebec?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Douglas King Hazen: gasoline which is being supplied to that area. Possibly that might not work out, but the suggestion occurred to me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: All I can say is that the ablest oil men we have in this country are trying to work out the situation in the maritime provinces. We are hopeful that we can work it out. The important thing is to keep our armed services going. If anything happens to them, you can imagine the consequences. We believe that the present situation is temporary and that we shall get relief through ocean tankers. We hope so. There may be a little straightening out to do on the border of Quebec. We are not trying to penalize people. If they live ten miles within the province of New Brunswick, they can drive to the province of Quebec and get a higher unit value of gasoline. That is no great loss to the war effort. That is a situation I am not worrying about particularly because I think all the people of Canada can see the writing on the wall and appreciate that they will get less gas before they get more gas. We are trying to divide up the gas fairly in the receiving areas, and will continue to do so.


Mr. McNEVIN:: Is it not true that a number of eastern states have had to accept a lower amount of gasoline than some of the central states?
_ Mr. HOWE:	Yes. There is sharp rationing of certain eastern states, but none at all of the bulk of the states. Seventeen states, I believe, have been rationed, and if I can believe the press, three gallons a week is the allowance in certain states. But the other states, that is all but the seventeen, have no rationing at all; they can buy all the gasoline they like.


Mr. HOMUTH:: I have had a number of
inquiries with respect to the fuel oil situation in the coming winter in Ontario. Could the minister give the house some time soon a report on the fuel oil situation, so that those who are using oil for heating purposes may have some warning as to what their position will be?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think I can give that without notice. There will be no heating by oil next winter in homes or in factories anywhere.


Grote Stirling: In the whole of Canada? Mr. HOWE: In the whole of Canada, yes.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The minister means that
we can take that statement and advise our people that all heating with fuel oil will be stopped for the coming winter?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Is it contemplated that
there will be any such drastic move in regard to natural gas in western Ontario? I have in mind the fact that a great many people have installed gas furnaces which are not convertible ; in each case an expenditure of hundreds of dollars will be required to take that type of furnace out and put another in. If they are to be under any such necessity they should receive fair warning.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think most householders
got their warning last winter. The fact is that the natural gas supply in Ontario is dwindling very rapidly. As my hon. friend knows last winter was mild, yet there were certain days when war industries were without gas and householders had very low pressure. We are attempting to meet the industrial situation in the Hamilton area by extension of the artificial gas supply, but I believe that householders who have furnaces which were originally built for coal and have been converted to gas may expect to be asked to transfer back. As to whether furnaces which were installed to burn gas only can be kept going, I am inclined to think that everything possible will be done to avoid the expense of tearing out that type of furnace and putting in another. But I am sure that those who have coal equipment which they are now using for gas will be asked to change back to coal.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Does that apply
to ordinary fuel oil too?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


George Alexander Cruickshank: In Hansard of yesterday, page 2548, the minister stated that arrangements would be made so far as possible to provide work for garages and small shops in connection with what is known as the bits-and-pieces	programme-provided,	he
added, the establishment is used exclusively for war work. Do I understand from that that a garage which has a machine shop in connection with it cannot go on repairing cars and still get small orders?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend must interpret that reasonably. What we are trying to do, strange as it may seem to a good many, is not to provide employment for all but to get all the war material we can. If a garage is two hundred miles from the nearest large factory it is very difficult to service that garage. A garage within five miles of a gun plant will be taken care of before one fifty miles away, because every

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operation of that kind has to be closely supervised and timed. There is nothing I can say about country garages that would apply to every country garage; there is nothing I can say about city garages which would apply to every city garage, because there it depends on what equipment there is, and the class of mechanic that is employed. But we are attempting to spread bits-and-pieces in garages wherever we can do so to the benefit of the war effort.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I was not criticizing. I was asking for information.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I hope I have made it clear.


George Alexander Cruickshank: As I understand the report in Hansard, it means that a garage, no matter how fine its equipment or how good its mechanics, could not have one part of its establishment repairing cars and another part, entirely segregated, doing war work.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I did not say that. I said we could not mix war work with repair work. It is very difficult to obtain costs where the two operations are running parallel. It might be possible if there was a segregation to work out the cost so that we would not have the danger of mixing repair work with war work as far as costs are concerned, and so that we could predict the output. Naturally, if we place bits-and-pieces with a garage for delivery on a certain day we must get the bits-and-pieces on that day. If they are two or three days late they may tie up the production of a whole plant. For that reason we cannot mix the two operations very well. But I would not be dogmatic on that. Each proposal must be studied on its merits.
Mr. MacIN-NIS: Costs could be placed on piece-work. Delivery, of course, is another matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Delivery, of course, is just as important as costs.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Is it not a fact that the bits-and-pieces programme is more a question of subcontracts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, yes.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Could not the department bring the subcontractor into direct contact with the government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The main contractor
must have control of his product. Take the manufacture of 25-pounders. This gun contains 1,200 pieces, of which about 560 are
subcontracted, some of them to garages. I know one two-car garage which is making a particular bit for that gun. But the main contractor must be the one who controls his product. The government, unless it has an assembly plant of its own, cannot deal in bits-and-pieces. The man who assembles the product is responsible for seeing that all his bits-and-pieces are there, and that they fit, and he must be, in the nature of things, the primary contractor.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Some of the men in the west who have machine tools feel that about the only things they are being offered by the main contractors are articles they cannot possibly handle or are not very profitable to handle, and that these small men are not being given much of a show.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There has been some difficulty in the west. We are trying to break it down. This is a matter of education in both directions; we have to educate the main contractor to break down his product, just as we have to educate the small shops as to what they must do in the way of cost accounting and production work. In the Sorel situation, the 25-pounder gun furnished the first great example of what could be done there. That set the pace for the eastern contractors, and we have been very successful in eastern Canada in getting contractors to break their production down. We are having more difficulty in the west, but are working away there, and expect to get better results as we are able to educate the main contractors further.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, May 21, 1942