1942-04-22

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. ESLING:: 1.	Has the Standard Oil Company of the United States or any of its subsidiaries in Canada or any oil company in Canada registered with the commissioner of patents, rights for the manufacture of synthetic rubber?
2.	If so, have any such rights been offered for the use of the Canadian government?
Question dropped.


PULP W OOD CONTROL
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	Has a pulpwood controller been appointed? If so, who is he?
2.	Upon whose request was such controller appointed?
3.	Have advisory committees been appointed in different sections?
4.	If so, please list the committees, giving names of appointees, stating upon whose recommendation such men were selected?
5.	Is there a serious shortage of pulpwood in Canada?
6.	If so, in what sections does the shortage prevail?
7.	Is there a ceiling price on pulpwood?
8.	If so, is production being restricted because the ceiling price is too low?
9.	Is volume of production or the ceiling price the most important?
10.	What prevailing regulations restrict the export of pulpwood to the United States?
11.	Is there a ceiling price in the United States?
12.	Is the Canadian ceiling, if any, the same as the price ceiling in the United States, considering the rate of exchange?


Mr. HOWE:: Stand.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: I would
ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) if he will be good enough to expedite the answers to these questions. The situation is quite serious in New Brunswick and it will become more serious unless the position is clarified. The peeling season will be on almost immediately.


BANK OF CANADA-SHORT TERM SECURITIES
Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	What dominion government short term securities are held by the Bank of Canada?
2.	When were these securities issued and what is their maturity date?
3.	For what purpose were these securities issued ?
4.	What other dominion government securities are held by the Bank of Canada?
5.	When were these securities issued and what is their maturity date?
6.	For what purpose were these securities issued?
7.	By what means did these securities come into the possession of the Bank of Canada?
8.	What provincial government short term securities are held by the Bank of Canada?
9.	When were these securities issued and what is their maturity date?
10.	For what purpose Were these securities issued?
11.	What other provincial government securities are held by the Bank of Canada?
12.	When were these securities issued and what is their maturity date?
13.	For what purpose were these securities issued ?


Mr. ILSLEY:: The information asked for
in regard to Bank of Canada's holdings of specific securities is not of government record. The Bank of Canada Act sets forth the classes of securities which the bank may acquire and places limits on holdings of securities having a term longer than two years. Certain safeguards have therefore been prescribed by
Questions

parliament, but no statutory provision exists for the publication of a detailed list of securities held. It is not considered that the dissemination of such information would serve any public interest. It might, in fact, work against the public interest by disclosing information which might benefit a limited number of persons operating in the security markets. The latest weekly statement of the Bank of Canada (April 15, 1942) shows the following holdings of dominion and provincial securities, classified as to whether they mature within two years or after two years, as required by the Bank of Canada Act: dominion and provincial government short term securities, $382,172,082.77; other dominion and provincial government securities, $214,869.680.81; total, $597,041,763.58.
See sessional paper No. 177 for details of dominion of Canada bond issues sold since September 1, 1939, in the first instance to the Bank of Canada. (This does not, of course, mean that all such securities are now held by the Bank of Canada.)


BEEF CATTLE EXPORTS
Mr. ROSS (Calgary East):: 1.	What recommendation did Mr. Donald Gordon, wartime prices and trade board chairman make to the government for dealing with the control of Canada's beef cattle exports?
2.	Will the government refer Mr. Gordon's recommendations to the agriculture or some other committee of this house for consideration before acting on it?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I submit that this question is not in order. The first part asks what recommendation has been made by the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board to the government for dealing with a certain matter. That is an internal matter; it would be a communication passing between the government and one of its officials. The second part of the question relates to a matter of government policy, to which the usual answer is that the government's policy will be announced in due course.


Richard Burpee Hanson: la not
the real objection the fact that the question is rather embarrassing?


James Lorimer Ilsley: There is nothing embarrassing about it.


ST. LAWRENCE WATERWAY
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What is the present position of negotiations between the government of Canada and the government of the United States on the St. Lawrence waterways and power development?
2.	What action has been taken in the matter? [Mr. Ilsley.J


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	An agreement providing for the St. Lawrence waterways and power development was signed at Ottawa, March 19, 1941. It is now before congress in Washington for approval. It has not been ratified.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


REPRESENTATION OF VICHY GOVERNMENT IN OTTAWA
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Does the ambassador for Vichy still reside in Ottawa?
2.	What is his name and present status?
3.	Who compose his staff, where are they located and in what cities in Canada are offices maintained?


Mr. CRERAR:: Information in reply to the three questions listed above was furnished to the House of Commons on January 22nd last and will be found on page 3 of Hansard of that date. There have been no changes in the personnel of the French legation, the status of the minister, or the location of the legation offices since that date.


SHORTAGE OF COAL IN GREAT BRITAIN
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the attention of the government been called to the recent severe coal famine in Cumberwell and many other parts of England and Great Britain?
2.	Will the government consider arranging a large contribution of Nova Scotia and other Canadian coal or has it any proposals to aid this serious hardship and suffering in the mother country ?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So far as I am aware the attention of the government has not been called to the matter referred to in this question.	As to the second part of the
question, I should) imagine it would be extremely difficult to get any shipping to transport coal from Nova Scotia to Great Britain at the present time.


Mr. CHURCH:: I meant for next fall and winter.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Have any wearing tests been arranged by the Department of National Defence on leather army boots?
2.	Has any standard treatment been applied to army boots with a view to extending the average wearing life?

3.	Has the attention of the department been called to the suggestions in this respect made by the select committee of the British House of Commons on national expenditures in their eleventh report?


Mr. RALSTON:: Return tabled.


DECENNIAL CENSUS-OLD AGE PENSIONS
Mr. ESLING:: 1.	According to the last census, how many Canadian citizens are seventy years of age or over?
2.	How many residents in Canada are in receipt of old age pension?


VALLEY FIELD CONSTRUCTION COMPANY
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What	is	the	total	value	of contracts
awarded to the Valley Field Construction Company since war began?
2.	What	is	the	total	value	of contracts
awarded to the Valley Field Construction Company by Wartime Housing Limited?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Thomas Langton Church: For a return showing-1. A list of the price ceiling subsidies issued, the estimated amount of same and on what articles, or in what trade and commerce.
2.	A list of the members of the Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation, a list of their chief officers, servants and agents, showing where they are located, the number thereof, together with their salaries and other allowances.
3.	Estimated cost of one year of maintaining the ceiling prices staff herein, and the aggregate number of officials and total payroll.
4.	The estimated cost per annum of the operation of this corporation.
5.	The walks of business life that are not yet supervised or directed by any departments of state.
6.	What training the members of this corporation and their chief officials have had in actual trade or commerce, or in a competitive business.
7.	What minister of the crown is responsible to parliament for the work of this corporation.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I would ask that this motion stand. I expect to make a statement to-morrow on the question of subsidies, after which this motion can be disposed of.


Thomas Langton Church: Will the minister deal with the statement which Mr. Gordon gave to a newspaper reporter a week ago? Mr. Gordon gave him this very information which was refused to this house before Easter. Is the minister responsible for the statement made herein by the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board?
Motion stands.
Motions for Papers



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT-LEGAL SERVICES

Mr. CARDIFF:: For a return showing the names of all counsel retained since January 1, 1940, in connection with prosecutions or other legal work under the Combines Investigation Act, together with a statement of the total amount paid to such persons by way of fee, living allowance, travelling expenses or on any other ground.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL INCOME TAX AGREEMENTS

Mr. STOKES:: For a copy of all final agreements entered into between the government of Canada and the governments of any province with reference to the proposed vacation by the provinces of the fields of income and corporation taxes.


George Henry Stokes: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents exchanged between any minister or official of the government of Canada and any minister or official of a provincial government since February 20, 1942, with reference to the proposed vacation by the provinces of the fields of income and corporation taxes.



TORONTO SEWAGE DISPOSAL PLANT-USE OF STEEL

Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all orders in council, letters, telegrams, rulings, regulations and other documents exchanged between the steel controller or Department of Munitions and Supply or any officer thereof and the corporation of the city of Toronto or chief officials thereof, relating to the use of steel for the new sewage disposal plant at Toronto.



CONTROL OF BEEF CATTLE EXPORTS

Mr. ROSS (Calgary East):: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, reports and other documents dealing in any way with the control of Canadian beef cattle exports, exchanged between (a) any minister or official of the government and any member or officer of the wartime prices and trade board, (b) any minister or official of the government and any buyer, dealer in or producer of beef cattle in Canada, (c) any member or officer of the wartime prices and trade board and any buyer, dealer in or producer of beef cattle in Canada?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I am quite content that this motion pass with the deletion of (a), for the reason that I gave a moment ago. It asks for the production of communications which are privileged.


George Henry Ross: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. The members of the prices and trade board are officers of the crown, and not civil servants. As I understand it, communications that are privileged are those passing between the government and its civil servants. But the members and officers of the price board are officers of the crown rather than civil servants, and I therefore submit that these communications are not privileged.


James Lorimer Ilsley: If the communications referred to in (a) are not privileged, then the communi-
1S38
Motions for Papers

cations referred to in (b) and (c) are privileged. We must go on one or the other principle, and the principle on which I am proceeding is that the board is an agency of the crown and that the members and officers of the board, all being appointed either by the civil service commission or by order in council are servants of the crown and in no sense distinguishable from civil servants. Communications passing between them and ministers or between them and the government are no more properly producible than the advice which a deputy minister gives to his minister. I think that is the sound position.


Richard Burpee Hanson: On the point of order, the minister may always waive the privilege, and I suggest to him that it might be in the public interest that he waive the privilege now because evidently there are communications passing back and forth between the government and the board which I believe it is in the public interest to know.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know whether I can waive the privilege or not, but I would not care to do so even if I could. The precedent established would be exceedingly serious, for then every time a minister was asked to state what advice he got from his deputy or a branch head I am afraid the leader of the opposition would rise and appeal on grounds of public interest that the privilege be waived and the house be given the information. That has never been done to my recollection.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The two cases are not quite analogous. The confidential relationship which exists between the minister and his deputy is far different from the relationship which exists between the minister and the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Oh, no.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Not one bit.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Quite different in principle.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Not at all.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: I am not so sure but that the time has come when we ought to know where some of this bad advice is coming from.
Motion as amended agreed to.



VOCATIONAL TRAINING


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour) moved:: That a special committee consisting of Messrs. Bruce, Donnelly, Edwards, Fraser (Peter-
borough West), Lafontaine, Leger, McCulloch, Marier, Mitchell, Noseworthy, O'Brien, Reid, Roebuck, Shaw and Winkler, be appointed to consider a bill intituled: "An act to assist in the carrying on and coordination of vocational training" and that the said committee be empowered to send for persons, papers and records and to report from time to time.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I might point out that
the motion as moved differs from the motion as it appears on the order paper, in that one or two names are substituted, as follows: the name of Mr. Martin is deleted and that of Mr. Roebuck added. The minister asks for unanimous consent to these changes so that the motion will be read as put.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That the governor in council be authorized to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, an amount not to exceed in the whole the sum of seven hundred and fifty million dollars for paying or redeeming the whole or any portion of loans or obligations of Canada and also for purchasing unmatured securities of Canada and for public works and general purposes.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: I should like to ask the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) a question arising out of an article in Le Canada of April 20, last Monday, of which I will read only 'a part:
"By answering 'Yes' you keep conscription away," said Senator L. M. Gouin, in Montreal.
"It is to prevent conscription that Mr. King asks to be freed from his pledges."
Was this authorized by the government? In view of the many different interpretations placed by some government ministers, members and provincial premiers on the construe.

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tion of the question submitted on the plebiscite to be voted on next Monday, will the Prime Minister clarify the text of the question so as to enable the voters to understand it sufficiently to mark their ballots intelligently?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe that that is a question which should be answered by the Prime Minister, and I shall draw it to his attention.



INQUIRY AS TO ACTION BEING TAKEN TO RELIEVE SHORTAGE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: On Monday the Minister of Agriculture said that in a day or so he would give a report to the house with regard to the beef situation. Is he now prepared to do so?


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Speaker, we are getting closer to it all the time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I suggest that that is not an answer. This is an important question, and we ought to have a statement from the Minister of Agriculture at the earliest possible day.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is about as close as I can get to an answer. We are drawing a little closer.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I beg
pardon; I could not hear the minister.


James Garfield Gardiner: We will make a statement in a very few days with regard to it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The
Minister of Agriculture should do something about it at once, because there are stores in this country which have not any beef.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, March 27, consideration in committee of a resolution to provide sums not exceeding $2,000,000,000 for the year ending March 31, 1943, for granting to his majesty aid for national defence and security-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Yien in the chair.
James Layton Ralston: Two or three questions were asked me the last day that matters connected with
the army were brought up. One was by the hon. member for Weyburn, with regard to a lease from the International Harvester Company of a building, in Weyburn I think it was. The hon. member had the idea, and so expressed it, that a building which had been leased by the department had been given up by the department and that when the manager of the company offered to allow the building to remain idle, so that it might be used again by the department, this offer was refused and the department insisted on carrying out the terms of the lease, which were that the department should put it in the same shape as it was prior to the leasing. He intimated that an expenditure of something like $2,000 had been made, and he said-I am reading from what he stated in the committee-at page 1665 of Hansard:
It seems to me that this was a case of red tape actually interfering in what would have been an ordinary, common sense business transaction of accepting the offer of the International Harvester Company to let the building stand idle, to waive the rent and storage charges, so that in the event of the building being required the arrangement could have been picked up again right where it was dropped.
I had inquiries made about it, and my hon. friend is to some extent correct, in his suggestion that the local manager of the company indicated that he thought possibly it could be arranged that t'he building might stand idle and the department would not necessarily have to carry out its obligation to put it back in the same shape as it was before; that, perhaps, was the substance of the conversation between the representative of the department and the local manager. The local manager, however, said that he would refer the matter to the headquarters of the company at Chicago, and later he wrote this letter, from which I will read, dated October 20, 194)1, addressed to Captain Evans, Department of National Defence, Military District No. 12, Regina:
This will acknowledge your telephone conversation of a short time ago, advising us that it is the intention of the dominion government to cancel the lease on the above Weyburn property to take effect November 30th, 1941.
The writer had some conversation with you regarding the removal of your improvements and other matters per your lease with this company, feeling that this work could perhaps be done at a later date.
The wrriter took this matter up with Chicago office, and we are to-day in receipt of their letter, which states in part as follows:
"We have discussed this matter, and it is our feeling that the terms of the lease should be complied with whenever the government vacates the building."
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Unless the government intends to continue their occupancy of this building, all of the provisions of the lease should be complied with immediately.
This will confirm our telephone conversation of to-day regarding this matter.
Yours very truly,
A. P. Brown
This indicates that the headquarters of the company refused to carry out the suggestion which had been made in the course of the conversation, that the building might be allowed to remain idle and the improvements not removed. I trust that this will clear the matter up in the mind of my hon. friend. He had the impression, and gave it to the house, that the company had offered to waive the terms of the lease and not require the expenditure to be made.
The hon. member for Peel asked a question with regard to categories of the reserve army. My information is that instructions covering enlistment into the reserve army allow category C men to be accepted. Men, however, between the ages of nineteen and thirty-five who are category A or B cannot be enlisted unless they are (a) those who have been granted or would: be entitled to postponement of compulsory training under the National Resources Mobilization Act; (b) members of Canadian officers' training corps of military age until graduation, also cannot be enlisted in the reserve army.
One other point which was mentioned, and which perhaps is not important, but it struck me rather forcibly and with some surprise, was with regard to the quantity of socks purchased by the department. The hon. member for Peterborough West quoted, I believe, from the report of the Department of Munitions and Supply to the effect that ten million pairs of woollen socks had been purchased. It sounded like a large amount, but the explanation is very simple. The quantity ordered since September, 1939, is 10,168,000 pairs. There have been actually issued to personnel of the active and reserve force units and to troops proceeding overseas since that time 5,336,364 pairs, leaving 4,831,636 pairs which have been ordered but which have not been issued. There were shipped overseas for the Canadian troops in the last year
626.000	pairs, leaving 4,205,636 pairs, and of these there are in stock 1,384,988 pairs, and there are due in outstanding orders which have not been delivered, 2,820,648 pairs. That information is given as of March 27, so that although there were 10,168,000 pairs ordered, of these roughly 1,300,000 were in stock and
2.800.000	had not been delivered.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have a letter from Doctor Routley with regard to the supplying of socks to the Red Cross. They supplied the army with 195,578 pairs of socks during 1941.


James Layton Ralston: I am sure the Red Cross have done splendid work in that connection. The initial issue for the active force is four pairs per man. The war replacement is twelve pairs a year, and the initial issue for the reserve is two pairs per man and the replacement three pairs.


Mr. GREEN:: Within the last few days articles have appeared in the press to the effect that a change is being made in the type of training being given to the men in the army. It would be helpful if the minister would explain. those changes. It does seem of the utmost importance that the army should be so trained that every man may be a fighter. I doubt very much whether that is the position at the present time. I believe there are men in the active army in Canada who have no rifles-if I am wrong I wish the minister would correct me-and certainly men who have had no rifle training. It is of the utmost importance that these men should be so trained. At any rate, the main consideration should be to train them in fighting. The Australian commander in Malaya, Major-General Henry Gordon Bennett, when he escaped after the fall of Singapore and returned to Australia, had this to say, as reported in the Ottawa Journal of March 16:
He charged that what he called barrack-square methods of training took the initiative out of troops.
It does seem that there is still quite a lot of the 1918 complex in connection with the training of our troops. Could the minister give us a statement to-day as to what changes have recently been made in the training of our troops?


James Layton Ralston: 
Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that not a very important factor?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend is quite right; it is an important factor. However, the trial has been made and the results have been seen. There is no doubt that men who have seen troops actively at work, actively engaged, who have been trained in training centres, are of one mind with respect to the desirability and the necessity of training in that way. There are, of course, constant changes in details of training. What might be called the frills in connection with drill are cut out; nevertheless most of these things have to be done if a man is to be made an efficient soldier and if discipline and smartness are to be maintained. By smartness I do not mean simply appearance for parade purposes, but alacrity, accuracy, energy, initiative, resourcefulness and readiness to obey an order. All these qualities are inculcated in the training of the individual soldier.
My hon. friend made one reference, and in that regard I would ask him to be as careful as possible in connection with statements he makes. The last time he made a statement with regard to rifles; it was that the army was equipped with rifles that would not fire. I corrected him on that.


Howard Charles Green: I was referring to a certain class of rifles.


James Layton Ralston: Yes, and I corrected him on that. It was not a good thing for this country for that statement to go out -because it was undoubtedly incorrect.


Howard Charles Green: If the minister wants to open up that dispute, there is a lot to be said on both sides. I will not say more about it in case I might be accused of hampering the war effort, and I think it would be just as well for him to let it drop. If I am to be attacked on that question, I am going to defend myself. It was certainly not all onesided.


James Layton Ralston: I am saying that my hon. friend made a statement with regard to rifles, that they would not fire, and I am saying that the statement was absolutely incorrect. I had expected he would indicate that he had been misinformed in connection with it. He is now making the statement that the active service force are without rifles.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman-


The CHAIRMAN:: Order.


Howard Charles Green: On a question of privilege, the minister is misquoting me. I said that some of the active service force were not equipped with rifles, and I asked him to correct me if I were wrong. I hope I am wrong. I hope every man in the active army has a rifle.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend says that some are not equipped with rifles. I have no doubt that there are some men in the active army who are not equipped1 with rifles. There are some men who do not have to carry rifles. I have, however, no knowledge of men in the active service force who should carry rifles who are not equipped with rifles.


Howard Charles Green: May I ask in that connection about such units as the drivers in the army service corps or men in the ordnance and men in different units of that type, w-ho I understand are supposed to be carrying rifles. If they are not they are merely chauffeurs. Some of these men do not have rifles. My suggestion, -made in the utmost good faith and for the sake of Canada, and certainly for the sake of the defence of the Pacific coast, was that all these men in the active army should have rifles with which to defend themselves and help to defend the country, and that -they should be trained to use them. That was what I mentioned nearly three months ago'in this house, and there has been plenty of time for the minister to check it up. Certainly in a part of the country that migh-t become overnight a war front, I cannot see why these men should not -be armed and should not be trained to use their arms.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend must remember that that is not the only part of the country which might become a war front. I can say to him that if these men are not actually carrying rifles, there are rifles for them. What I deprecate is my hon. friend having the impression go abroad that Canada's active forces engaged in operations have not rifles, because the idea is absolutely erroneous. I want to say to my hon. friend, if he will permit me to finish-


Howard Charles Green: Don't put words in my mouth.


James Layton Ralston: I want to make that statement to him in the most emphatic way.


Howard Charles Green: The minister has admitted that what I have said is correct; that there are some men in the active army who do not have rifles. I do not need any curtain-lecture about making statements like that, especially when he admits they are correct. I want to have the condition remedied.
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James Layton Ralston: I am not giving any curtain-lecture, but I cannot call the roll and find what men have rifles at this particular minute; I am saying that we have rifles for them. If they go on the trucks in connection with training without rifles, that does not mean that there are not rifles for them. I say there are rifles available for them.


Howard Charles Green: Then I understand the minister's statement to be that there should be rifles for these men?


James Layton Ralston: There should be rifles for the men for whom there should be rifles. That is all I can say. There are some units and some men in the active forces who do not carry rifles; some carry revolvers.


Howard Charles Green: Well, are all these men who should have rifles given training in the handling of rifles? Are they all being trained in the firing of rifles? Some of these men have been in the army for two and a half years.


James Layton Ralston: I can assure my hon. friend that during the four-month training period they are all given training in the handling of rifles.


Howard Charles Green: But a good many of these men did not go through the training centres, men say who have been in the army for a year and a half or longer. Why is it not possible for every one of these men who is supposed to have a rifle to be given training in the use of the rifle?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend is talking about a hypothetical case. I cannot call the roll of each man in each unit, but I can say that they are given rifle training and they pass all the tests in rifle training and are given musketry instruction; that is one of the elementary matters in the training of a soldier. I do not know what my hon. friend means by assuming that they have not been trained with rifles. If he has any particular instance I shall be glad to hear of it.


Howard Charles Green: Will the minister have a check made in the Pacific command to see whether or not every man who ought to be carrying a rifle has received training in the use of the rifle? I do not want to blame the local commanders if it is found such is not the case, but I believe the minister will find the position to be that many of these men for one reason or another have not had training in the use of the rifle, and I suggest that it is of the utmost importance that every one of them be trained to fire a rifle and that there be a rifle available for him, one that can be given out to him at very short notice.


James Layton Ralston: I shall be glad to comply with my hon. friend's request and have a check made, but three months ago, I think it was, the hon. member for Weybum asked me with regard to the arms of men in the active army on the Pacific coast at that time, and I gave a list showing that all these troops were fully armed with rifles. I have no reason to think that situation does not exist to-day. I can assure my hon. friend that the tests of elementary training include musketry and training with the rifle, and these active troops are allotted and issued rifles.


Howard Charles Green: As I said before, many of them were in the active army before the training centres were established.


James Layton Ralston: But they are all required to pass their tests of elementary training annually.


Howard Charles Green: Well, will the minister check it up?


James Layton Ralston: Certainly.


Mr. WHITE:: At a centre such as Camp Borden which is known as an advanced training centre, would the minister say that there is a rifle for every man training there?


James Layton Ralston: I would not.


George Stanley White: Could he say what proportion of rifles there is for the men?


James Layton Ralston: Not at the moment, and if I could I do not think that is information which I should give. But I can assure my hon. friend that there are plenty of rifles for the training of the men at that centre.


George Stanley White: Could the minister give
an estimate of the number of men at the training centre?


James Layton Ralston: As I remember, there are three branches training there, armoured cars, tanks and, I think, an infantry training centre, and a reconnaissance wing as well. I cannot give an estimate of the number of men.


George Stanley White: Then the minister is quite satisfied that there are sufficient rifles at the Camp Borden training centre?


James Layton Ralston: For the training of the men there, yes.


George Stanley White: Has the minister received
any complaint of insufficient rifle ranges at Camp Borden for both machine guns and rifles?


James Layton Ralston: No, I have not.


George Stanley White: Then would the minister
make some statement in regard to an average

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soldier in a rifle or machine gun battalion? After he has taken his basic training of two months and then proceeds to Camp Borden or some other defence training centre, takes the prescribed course there and in due time goes on draft to England, is that soldier a fully trained soldier?


James Layton Ralston: He is regarded as a
trained soldier sufficiently to go as a reinforcement to England or in a unit.
Mr. WHITE. What further training does he take in England of the same nature, rifle,
machine gun, mortar, anti-tank gun, et cetera?


James Layton Ralston: I am sorry I cannot go into the details of the training syllabus in England. It depends on what operational role the particular unit is filling. As the committee knows, most of the units there are filling operational roles. The training depends on the syllabus which is issued at the reinforcement units. If the man is not sent to a unit, he is given individual training and sectional training as well. The training with the unit depends, generally speaking, on the syllabus which is laid down by the divisional commander. When I was over there, No. 1 unit was brushing up, had been in the line for, I think, six or eight weeks and had come out and was taking some individual training again; others were taking section training, they were going on with platoon training. The training depends on the divisional commander and the length of time they have been away from active training.


George Stanley White: What training would a
soldier have with machine gun and tommy gun, and how many rounds would he actually fire?


James Layton Ralston: I could not say.


George Stanley White: I have been told that the average soldier at Camp Borden does not fire more than fifteen rounds with a machine gun. Is there any truth in that report? If so, does the minister think that firing fifteen rounds with a machine gun is complete training?


James Layton Ralston: I shall find out. I would be surprised if that is correct.


George Stanley White: Then as to the use of the anti-tank gun at Camp Borden, could the minister tell me whether privates, N.C.O.S and junior officers actually fire the antitank gun at Camp Borden, or is that reserved only for very senior officers?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot tell. I shall be
glad to have the chief of general staff here to give my hon. friend the information. My
hon. friend understands that those are details of training which the minister does not have at his finger-tips.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But he
ought to have his technical officer here to tell us.


George Stanley White: Could the minister put on
Hansard something of the training syllabus at Camp Borden and the approximate number of hours' training the men have on those various weapons?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


George Stanley White: Could the minister tell us
something as to the training with trench mortars at Camp Borden?


James Layton Ralston: There again I cannot give the details. It will be shown in the training syllabus. My hon. friend knows that two-inch mortars have not been available until recently; three-inch have been available, training has been done with them.


Mr. LOCKHART:: Could the minister
make a statement as to the changes in fatigue duties that have been made? It is apparent that there has been a considerable change in their routine duties; does that in any way affect the fatigue work?


James Layton Ralston: WTe are endeavouring to
make the establishment large enough so that fatigues may be avoided or reduced and the time spent practically entirely in connection with training. I must say that there are some objections as well as some advantages in that, because I have always felt that one part of a soldier's training was doing a certain amount of what are called fatigue duties, which are routine duties which would have to be performed if a soldier were on active service, just as they have to be performed in camp. But it has been felt that the training syllabus is so full that it is desirable to spend every possible moment on training. As my hon. friend probably knows, the training time is run off hour after hour, and there is barely enough time for soldiers to get the full training laid down in the syllabus at the basic and advanced training centres, without taking time for fatigue duties.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am not
a military expert at all, and I do not know anything about it. I do know, however, that old soldiers scorn the idea that these men in the training camps should not do fatigue duty. They say it is just as much part of their training as the marching up and down the streets of which we see so much these days. I think there is something sound in that. They have to do this fatigue duty if

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they are on active service; so why should they not do their fair share of it in the training centres? That is the- theory which has been sold to me. I do not want to give it as mine at all, but I suggest that there is a great deal of sound common sense behind it.


James Layton Ralston: As I intimated, I had
somewhat the same idea myself, but in connection with the training centres those who are in charge of training, and in whom I have confidence, believe all the time possible should be devoted to the work of the syllabus. Of course that does not mean that when the soldier gets back to his unit he does not go on fatigue duty, as all other soldiers do. It only means that the time at the training centre is fully occupied with the syllabus that has been laid down.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Notwithstanding what
has been said by the leader of the opposition, do I gather, then, that the fatigue duty to be done by soldiers is being reduced from time to time, compared with what it was seven or eight months or a year ago?


James Layton Ralston: That is correct.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: And does it apply only to men in the lower categories in the units? How far does it extend?


James Layton Ralston: I am speaking particularly of the basic and advanced training centres.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: First I want to thank the minister for the information he gave the committee and myself, since I was particularly interested, with regard to the Weyburn barracks. I am glad to learn that the fault did not lie primarily with the government, but that the offer made by the manager was not endorsed by the headquarters of his company in Chicago. But I want to point out to the committee that this does not entirely dispose of the case; it means simply that the responsibility has been shifted. Here is a very excellent building, one of the best for use as a barracks anywhere in Saskatchewan, or probably anywhere in western Canada. It is standing idle at a time when we are putting up new buildings in other parts of the country. Under a lease we were paying, I believe, $560 a month in rent, and I agree that there would be no sense in the world in paying that amount of money if we were not using the building. Apparently the company were not prepared to abide by the offer made by their manager, that as long as the building was not being used no rent should be paid, but that the equipment put into the building by

the government should remain there pending the time when it might be necessary to use that barracks again, when the rent would commence once more.
As the minister has .pointed out, the company were not prepared to abide by that suggestion; but I should like to know why we have a National Resources Mobilization Act. In June, 1940, legislation was introduced in this house with a great fanfare. The government were going to start to do things; they were going to start taking over things, if they needed them. Here is an excellent three-story building, owned by a United States firm which has not used it for a great many years and is not likely to use it for a good many years more. It seems to me that the government would have been well within its rights in saying to that firm, "At some future date we may require this building. As a matter of fact, if we ever have to mobilize the second battalion of the South Saskatchewan regiment we shall require it, because it is the only place between Regina and the international boundary where in any emergency we can quickly assemble and equip five hundred or a thousand men. As long as that building is there, and since you do not require it, we propose to leave in it the equipment already there, and1 we will pay you rent only when we use the building." Under the National Resources Mobilization Act the government has power to do this. To me it seems a pity that we should spend $1,800 or $2,000 in taking out plumbing fixtures and equipment, since undoubtedly the day will come when we shall have to use that building again, when all that equipment will have to be put back. Therefore, while I am glad to have the statement by the minister that the firm did not support the suggestion made by their manager, certainly I think the government would have been well advised and quite within its rights in insisting that the offer should have been endorsed by the company.
I wanted to ask the minister one or two questions, the first arising out of what has been said' by the hon. member for Vancouver South with reference to the men on active service carrying on duties which do not ordinarily require them to carry rifles. I refer to orderlies, truck drivers, chauffeurs, clerks and so on. What is the minimum training that is given to all men in active service, in rifle and machine gun work? In other words, I take it for granted that the same procedure is followed as in the air force, where, no matter to wihat branch a man is sent, he is given a certain minimum training in the use of small

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arms. I think it would1 clarify the situation if the minister would tell us what is the minimum training that a man on active service must have in small arms, irrespective of what he is doing. The minister also speaks of there [DOT]being rifles for all these men, and I take it for granted that this means Lee-Enfieldi rifles. One of the minister's secretaries was kind enough to send me some information with reference to the other rifles being used, mainly American, such as Edison, Winchester and various other makes which we generally class as Springfield. They are manufactured by different firms, but they come under the Springfield classification in that they are of [DOT]300 calibre. I imagine those will be used principally by reserve units, by these guerilla bands which are being set up in the west or by the veterans' guard. I wonder whether, when the minister says there are rifles for all these men, he means Lee-Enfield rifles of -303 calibre.
Would the minister explain to the committee what disposition is made of these men when they come out of the training centres? There have been some two hundred thousand or more men go through these training camps. Are they attached to active service units for further training? Are they brigaded into the division, or just what disposition is made of them after they finish at the training centres?
I	should be glad also if the minister would be kind enough to outline the new plans that have been hinted at with reference to the reserve army. I understand that some of the reserve units are now being brigaded; that there is to be an increase in the period of training and an intensification of the training of these reserve units. Would the minister outline the plans of his department in regard to the reserve army?


James Layton Ralston: With regard to the International Harvester company lease, my hon. friend makes a specious argument, and I am sure he realizes it is a fallacious one.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I do not
realize it.


James Layton Ralston: What he means is that we should use the National Resources Mobilization Act for the purpose of confiscation.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I rise to a point of order. The minister is crusty to-day; apparently is quite touchy. I am not going to allow him to say that I made a specious argument knowing it to be fallacious. He cannot impute motives to me.


James Layton Ralston: I did not say-


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is
exactly what the minister said, whether he was conscious of it or not. The argument may be fallacious, but I certainly did not make it knowing it to be fallacious. The minister will not help either himself or the conduct of this committee by being sarcastic about me or any other member.


James Layton Ralston: I did not say that my hon. friend intended it to be fallacious. I said that it was a specious argument, but it was fallacious. I said that it was suggesting confiscation. My hon. friend knows that under the National Resources Mobilization Act we have the right to take any property we desire, but the principle of law in this country is that unless you expressly provide that it shall be taken without compensation, compensation is allowed.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I suggested compensation when the building was in use.


James Layton Ralston: I beg my hon. friend's pardon; I thought he was suggesting that rent be paid for the time it was used. But there was a further point; there was a breach of contract. The requirement was that if you cancelled the lease you had to restore the premises to the condition in which they were at the time they were taken over. That had to be done in order to comply with the contract. They could have done the same thing and charged the cost to the government. It was done simply as a matter of legal obligation, that is all. I do not think the National Resources Mobilization Act comes into the picture at all.
With regard to the question my hon. friend asked relating to training in the use of rifles and machine guns, I am sorry I cannot give him the exact number of hours. I can only say now that the training is exactly the same as the training laid down in the British manuals. Under the British plan elementary training is given and tests have to be passed by the soldier. I promised one hon. member that I would bring down the syllabus so that hon. members will be able to see just how much training is done with rifles and machine guns.
With regard to the third question, with respect to rifles held by the active service force, I would say that they are not all Lee-Enfield rifles, but they are all -303 rifles. Some are Ross rifles. The fourth question had to do with the disposition of men when they come out of training. They go to units if there are units forming, or they go as reinforcements. At the present time we have trained soldier companies which are really graduate companies in which men are kept at
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the training centres until the time comes for them to go either overseas or to their units. The answer generally is that they go on duty just as soon as duty is available for them.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I asked the minister if he would outline the plan with reference to the reserve army.


James Layton Ralston: The reserve army is part of the defence scheme of Canada; it forms a second line in that respect. Provision has been made for the forming of a reserve brigade group in each district. The greatest expedition in connection with the formation of these groups has been on the two coasts, but they are also being formed in the other districts. The idea is that an additional amount of equipment will be issued to the units in these reserve brigade groups. They consist not only of infantry, but also of artillery, medical corps, ordnance corps and all the auxiliary services which should go to make up a brigade group.
I had the interesting experience of attending meetings with the officers commanding the reserve brigade groups in three districts- No. 11 at Vancouver, No. 6 at Halifax and No. 7 at Saint John. We have explained to them as fully as possible what we can do, having regard to the allocation of equipment which is necessary in the times in which we live and in the emergency which exists. Equipment from Canadian factories does not by any means all go to Canadian troops; it goes to practically every field and every active front that there is. We have explained to them the situation. We have given them higher priorities than have been given to some of the other units. We have listened to what they had to say with regard to improvements and suggestions which they offered as to the expedition of the formations and the training and organization of these brigade groups. I think we pretty well covered the ambit of any questions which might arise in the minds of the commanding officers.
These reserve brigade groups will train as reserve units at their own armouries or local headquarters. They will go to camp for fifteen days during the summer. I think it was the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) who asked about the training of the reserve army. We expect not to dwell so much on individual training but to endeavour to see that the men who come there are dealt with along lines of training which will interest them and which will in as little time as possible give them the rudiments of
fMr. Ualston.]
soldiering and some of the basic principles which are needed in connection with organization and serving in units.
As hon. members know, full-time staffs are being formed and are being given to these brigade groups. The commanding officers and the administrative and training staffs have already been allotted to reserve units. We are seeing to it that in cases where it is required, having regard to local conditions or to the disposition of the particular unit, the staffs are commensurate with the necessities of the case. That is, we have adopted the principle that they are not to be sealed-pattern establishments so far as the administrative and training staffs are concerned. The district officers commanding are given considerable leeway in making recommendations so that these staffs may be able to take care of things as they arise and as they exist, having regard to the conditions.
These units are authorized to recruit up to war establishment. Generally speaking, the administrative and training staffs are authorized on the basis of an adjutant, a training officer, a regimental quartermaster sergeant, an orderly room sergeant and two training instructors. This applies where the strength is less than 300. One additional instructor will be provided for each additional 200 men. When the batteries are being decentralized, as I have indicated already, additional instructors will be authorized up to a total of one per company or one per battery.
Before the adjournment I dealt with those who would be eligible for enlistment in the reserve units. I stated that these would be men between the ages of seventeen and nineteen; men between the ages of nineteen and thirty-five who were in medical categories lower than B-
Mr. GREEN; Are those ages inclusive- that is the seventeen to nineteen?


James Layton Ralston: Exclusive of nineteen.


Howard Charles Green: Seventeen and eighteen?


James Layton Ralston: 
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I do not want to labour this question of the barracks; but it certainly comes veiy poorly from the minister, after saying that my argument is fallacious, to proceed to make the most specious argument imaginable, that a legal contract stands in the way of their use to-day when this country is at war. I am not suggesting confiscation. I was suggesting that so long as the building was standing there empty, the government had the power to say to these people: "We want this contract altered. Otherwise we shall use the National Resources Mobilization Act because as long as that building is empty we do not propose to pay rent. When we do use the building we will pay rent." That is not a fallacious argument at all, nor am I advocating confiscation. I certainly do not agree with the minister that a legal contract stands in the way at a time like this when Canada is in peril, and I do not think the people of the country whose man-power we are conscripting will take kindly the specious argument that a legal contract stands in the way of these barracks being used.
As to the minister's statement on the reserve army, as I understand the new plan, it is to step up the training of the reserve units. With that I am in hearty agreement. There is a real job to be done by these units. They have to put in fifteen days in camp, the equivalent of fifteen days in week-end manoeuvres, and the equivalent of another fifteen days made up of several hours put in during the evenings
of each week. But I would draw to the minister's attention the fact that there are rural units, and the one in which I am particularly interested is scattered over an area of 200 miles or more, with 4 different companies, each with a company headquarters, 75 or 100 miles away from battalion headquarters. Obviously it is impossible for the men to meet for training in the evening. In the few places where there is a fairly large centre you can get a platoon together once in a while, but many of the boys live on the farm, a long way from company headquarters, let alone battalion headquarters. They cannot meet in the evening, and it is very difficult for them to meet over the week-end. There are no barracks, and there is no place for them to meet for week-end manoeuvres. This means that all the training they will get is the fifteen days in camp. Fifteen days is valueless in training a unit. It will only give them time to develop some sore muscles and a few aches when they return home. Has the minister in mind lengthening the camp period for reserve units in the rural communities which are scattered over a considerable area? I think they should have a minimum of thirty days in camp. They cannot meet in the evening and cannot hold week-end manoeuvres, except in the case of the larger units in the urban centres.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend ought not to assume that they cannot have weekend manoeuvres because they are scattered. The training period at a week-end can cover a whole day, and you can put in longer hours in that way-if you are talking about hours. We have also provided, as I have indicated, for more instructors for dispersed units. There has not been-I am speaking subject to correction-consideration given to extending the camp period-, the reason being that there are a number of units to be accommodated-; you have only so much time in the summer, and you have to arrange a schedule of training to allow them all- to come to camp. But I shall make a note of my hon. friend's suggestion. I think, however, the situation is covered by extra instructors and a concentrated period- of training. Instead of training for simply one or two evenings a week, they can train for a whole day or a week-end- at a time.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I agree with the minister, and that -is why I raised the matter of the barracks. Last year an excel-'ent thing was done. The camps were so crowded in the summer that it was not possible for all the units to train; so a number of non-commissioned officers were sent down, and they used these barracks in
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the winter time to train four or five hundred men at a time. This meant that the men were able to get in a month's training in their own barracks. It was the only way to get them together under the supervision of the training officers, and with proper standards of training. The brigadier visited them, and there was an inspection of what went on. That would be better than to send men to camp for only fifteen days. It might be possible to give these men fifteen days in camp, in addition. Certainly something ought to be done for these dispersed units because they need the opportunity to come together and build up an esprit de corps. As it is, they hardly see each other. I draw the matter to the minister's attention as one worthy of consideration.


Mr. GRAYDON:: There are one or two matters upon which I feel compelled to speak this afternoon, and I do so with reluctance for two reasons. One is that I can scarcely pose as an expert in the matters now under discussion, and the second is that any man with a keen sense of responsibility towards our war effort must be extremely careful in any statements he makes about the armed forces. With those considerations in mind I bring two points to the minister's attention.
On March 18 the Prime Minister made his statement with regard to the establishment of unity of command in three areas of defence in Canada-one on the Pacific coast, one on the Atlantic coast and one in Newfoundland. The choice of commander for each of these unified areas in the final analysis rested with the senior officer in that area in charge of one or other branch of our armed forces. I can make no comment which would be of any use to the committee with respect to the eligibility or usefulness of any of these three men, but I would bring to the attention of the committee reflections which one hears of public opinion from time to time, and that is, the public are anxious to know whether the appointments to positions of supreme importance in our national defence and in our national waging of this war are to be made strictly from the point of view of seniority of service or whether other factors which the public, rightly or wrongly, believes to be of importance are to be taken into account.
I point out to the minister the danger, of which he is already aware, of paying much attention to armchair critics of our war effort. I should not like to think that the minister would pay much attention to them. But one is compelled as a member of parliament at least to bring to the attention of the government what one hears among the public from

time to time, so that if there is a germ of constructive suggestion in their ideas they may be adopted, not only with a view to increasing the efficiency of our armed forces but to improve the morale of the people for whom these forces are fighting.
While I hesitate to suggest that the element of seniority should be entirely disregarded with regard to appointments, may I urge upon the minister that in appointments particularly to positions of major importance, some measure of significance be attached to knowledge of the newest and latest types of warfare. I believe that the minister, the forces and the people of Canada all realize that it is not enough even to have men well trained with respect to methods of war as practised in 1939. Since that time, methods of waging war and the character of the war itself have changed so much that it taxes the best brains of the war offices in every one of the united nations to keep up to date as regards the instruments and style of warfare to be used.
What I am saying, as the minister will understand, is a reflection of opinions which have been expressed not only to myself, but, I am sure, to most hon. members. Most of us, including myself, are anxious that nothing we say shall be a reflection upon those who are commanding our armed forces in this country or elsewhere. But in Great Britain they have not hesitated to criticize, in the interests of the nation. Men of major standing in public life have done so; they have called for an end of what they term the Colonel Blimp mentality in their national war effort. I have not come to this chamber for the purpose of charging that we in Canada have any such mentality, but I want the minister to understand that in the interests of the forces and of the public a careful scrutiny should be made and a thorough survey instituted, by himself, or by someone else competent to do so, so that the public shall be satisfied that our forces are controlled and led by men who are up to date with regard to modern warfare; in other words, that the Canadian forces are led by the best brains and the most efficient men whom Canada can produce, regardless of whether they are of senior or junior standing. I am supported in this argument by what has been said by General McNaughton himself. If anything in the past few months has encouraged and strengthened the morale of the general public, it is that General McNaughton in his press relations has made mention of this very fact which I am trying, though inadequately, to put before this committee. He has said that younger men, men who have

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had experience in modern warfare, will be given responsible positions regardless of age or other circumstances which, though in peace time they may mean a great deal, in war time mean very little.
I have brought these matters to the minister's attention reluctantly and1 with much hesitation. I believe, however, he is entitled to know that there is a section of public opinion which would like some assurance from him that everything possible has been done to see to it that the men appointed to take command of our Canadian units have the aggressive mentality necessary to wage the sort of total warfare which is being employed against us by our enemies.
A word with regard to the training itself. I do not want the minister to answer this question if it would disclose something which should not be revealed, but it seems to me that the manual and the course used- for the training of our armed forces, particularly our officers, though it may have been useful twenty years ago or even three or four years ago, may not be of as much effect to-day having regard to the kaleidoscopic changes which have taken place. I suggest that every possible effort be made to modernize our training to the very last minute. I want to see the Canadian army second to none in the world so far as up-to-date, efficient, offensive methods are concerned. The Canadian people have a right to expect that; as a member of parliament I hope that is what they have, and I am not suggesting otherwise. But I would emphasize as strongly as I can that the minister set aside everything in our training which may be obsolete, and apply to the training of our armed forces the methods of to-day.
I believe he will understand the spirit which moves me to make these suggestions, and on behalf of the Canadian people I urge that he give all possible consideration to them.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend speaks,
if I may say so to him, as a man after my own heart. There is not anything that he has said with which I find the slightest fault. I have said in this house and I say to this committee that I do not regard seniority as being a governing factor in connection with appointments to commands.
He has mentioned the three combined commands, those of the Atlantic, the Pacific, and Newfoundland. It happened there that the senior officers were regarded as well qualified. They were appointed on that ground and, having taken counsel not only with those who are immediately around me, but with others as well, I shall be tremendously disappointed if that confidence is not justified. I
am not going to deal with individuals, because that would be invidious. But Major-General Page, in Newfoundland, went to England and was there for some time; he went to Iceland, and afterwards, as hon. members know, took command of the fourth division. Major-General Alexander is a soldier of very long experience and a splendid record, which I will not relate here. I had an opportunity of seeing him at the Pacific coast, discussing matters with him and being around with him a great deal in connection with Pacific coast matters, and from what I learned and saw of how the three services are cooperating, while one will never be fully satisfied, I had every reason to believe that the appointment made and the decision come to by the war committee of the cabinet was eminently satisfactory. On the Atlantic coast, Major-General Elkins happened to be the senior man there. He had a splendid record in the last war. He filled several important posts in Canada and we were very glad to be able to avail ourselves of his services when the Atlantic command was established on the east coast, and found evidence of excellent cooperation between him and his colleagues of the other two services. It must be remembered that both these officers have officers in their command who have been overseas in this war, and know the conditions and the needs there both in training and operation.
Further than that, in connection with training-and this is what I want to emphasize- with all these units in Canada beginning with the second division, because the first division had to be trained by men who had not been overseas in this war, we have followed the policy of asking for men to be returned from England as brigadiers to command divisions. General McNaughton went with the first division and Major-General Odium with the second division, and some of his brigadiers, two out of three, I think, were men who had been overseas. Major-General Price commanded the third division. He was brought back from overseas. He was not selected on the ground of seniority. He was not the senior by any means, but was given command of the third division on the recommendation of his senior officer who knew him and who believed that he would fit the job. Major-General Page was recommended for the fourth division in exactly the same way. He was not senior, but a brigadier in charge of holding units at that time. He had been in Iceland and in England and had been in charge of holding units there, and he was sent here on the recommendation of General McNaughton. Major-General Sansom who commands the fifth division was not senior but was brought
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back on the recommendation of his senior officer, who believed that he was best fitted for the job. Lieutenant-General Crerar had been in England three times in this war. He was first the senior officer at Canadian military headquarters in England and had done a splendid job for about a year in connection with the setting up of Canadian headquarters and, as well, in connection with the organization of the whole Canadian effort there. Lieutenant-General Crerar is a professional soldier, a staff officer of wide attainments and a man who has not simply administrative ability. He has a fine training on the general staff side as well. He was selected to command the second division and he is now commanding the Canadian corps. In every case without exception recommendations have come from overseas for the men who have been placed at the head of our formations, and that course is being followed in connection with the sixth, seventh and eighth divisions. The commanders of these will be announced in due course.
In connection with brigadiers, I have not at the moment a list before me, and I have not been able to recall them all, but I think at least two out of three in every case were men who had had service overseas and had come back with training and operational experience gained there. In addition to that, the brigadier in charge of training to-day is Brigadier Weeks, who was overseas for two years, and with him is Lieutenant-Colonel Sparling, who was overseas for a year and was brought back. The quartermaster-general is Major-General MacKenzie who was brought here from overseas.
The armoured corps, which is being trained at the present time, is being trained under the direction of officers from the other side. We had to get British officers in the first place in order that the suggestion made by my hon. friend would be carried out, namely, that the men would get the benefit of the latest experience in connection with operations and the latest methods of training. There are now over 1,000 personnel brought back within the last two months to carry on training in connection with the extended army programme.


Gordon Graydon: Officers and men?


James Layton Ralston: Officers and non-commissioned officers. My hon. friend refers to the training of officers. We have put in charge of the training of officers at Brockville the Sergeant-at-Arms of this house, Colonel Gregg, V.C., who has returned after a splendid career overseas. He is now coming to take charge of the officers' training centre at Brockville. Colonel Scott of the Calgary Highlanders has come back to take charge of the senior officers' course. This indicates that we are trying to
.
meet the specification which my hon. friend lays down, namely, to secure people who know what the latest types of training and operations are, and it means also that we are meeting the specifications which must be satisfactory to General McNaughton, or he would not agree to the junior war staff course coming back here. The officers' training course has been eminently satisfactory. These men who have come here have proved satisfactory, and the cadets will get the benefit of the experience and training of Colonel Gregg, V.C., who comes from the O.C.T.U., as they call it over there, of which he has been in charge in England.
That is the general set-up, and we are trying to carry out that policy. There are changes in training from time to time. In addition to what I have said, as the committee knows, the commanding officer, or the second in command, and one or two non-commissioned officers from each unit are being sent over for two or three months in England, so that they will come back to their units with the knowledge and experience they have gained there.


Mr. STIRLING:: Units of the active army?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. We are trying to
keep that integration between the activities in England and the experiences gained there, and the training activities and operational activities here. I am really gratified that we have been able to make such exchanges as we have effected. I consider that our friends in England did us a good turn when they found it possible to accede to our request to send 1,000 or more officers and N.C.O's here to assist in connection with training this summer. Most members of the house know some of the men who have come back, who have been associated with that contingent. That is the general scheme.
While I do not profess to know the intimate details, how many hours are spent in connection with rifles or machine guns, and so on, I do know and feel that the training has been put in competent hands. It has been given to men who, if anyone should know, certainly do know what will be most successful and effective.
I close by expressing again what I said at the opening. My hon. friend has not said anything to which I take the slightest exception. I appreciate his moderation, and I know the point he mentioned is in the minds of people generally. The question of seniority cannot be allowed to override or to be the governing factor in connection with the command or training of men, which may involve the very existence of the country.

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This war is too big to have its success or the progress of training interfered with by any one individual, and there must of course be changes from time to time. Changes have been made and probably will continue to be made, but when they are made it is not necessarily a reflection on individuals, but simply because we feel that adjustments and improvements can be made and that it is our duty to make them.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: I wish to ask two questions which seem to me to be important. Do members of the reserve army at summer camp get pay and allowances?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, pay and subsistence allowances when they are necessary.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like the
minister to answer these questions so that the information will appear on Hansard and in the newspapers, because occasionally a private member gets into a hot-box over this. I know I do. It was announced at the beginning of the war by all three ministers that no political interference was allowed in recommendations for commissions. I know that is true, but I want the fact to get wide publicity so that people will not ask me any questions about it. Is that correct?


James Layton Ralston: I can say to my hon.
friend that there is no exception whatever to that.


Mr. COLDWELL:: In view of the fact
that the discussion has largely revolved around equipment and training, may I ask when we may expect the report of the commission which has been inquiring into the Hong Kong affair? It seems to me that since that will deal naturally with training and equipment, it would be helpful to this committee to have that report so that we might study it and see what deficiencies there were and perhaps base thereon some discussion as to improvements for the future.


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid-I hope the committee will believe me-that I know as little about that as anyone in this committee. When I came back from the west I did not have a chance to inquire, but when I came back from the east on Monday I made inquiry about it and from what I learned I anticipate it will not be very long before the report is received. I am afraid that is as definite as I can be, because it is entirely in the hands of the commissioner.


Howard Charles Green: What steps have been taken to build up new arms of the service, for example, paratroops? It was announced last
fall that plans were in contemplation for setting up a corps of paratroops in Canada, but we have heard nothing about it since. It would seem that they would be very useful, either in case of an attack on Canada or for offensive purposes beyond Canada. Could the minister tell us whether or not such troops are to be raised and trained?
Another type is mountain artillery. Certainly on the Pacific coast it is generally considered that they would be very handy, perhaps a good deal more useful than field artillery. I have no doubt the matter has 'been considered by the authorities, but could the minister tell us something about it?
It would also be interesting to the committee if the minister were to tell us something about the newly-formed coast rangers. I do not know whether they have been formed on the Atlantic as well as on the Pacific coast, but I think it is a splendid idea. I hope they will be given every encouragement. I should like to see units raised in all parts of British Columbia. I understand they are being raised on the coast first, but I urge upon the minister that such units be formed also in the interior of the province. Then a question comes up in connection with their armament. At the present time they are supposed, to use their own rifles, but as soon as army rifles are available provision should be made for issuing them to these men. They should also have at least some machine guns. They will be greatly handicapped if they have only their own rifles. The department should be very careful also to see that there is the closest coordination between the staff and these rangers. There is some danger of the men being used only as trail finders or scouts who can send back information to headquarters. The department will have to go further than that and see that in the plans for defending the coast the work of these rangers is coordinated with the work of the reserve army and of the active army. It may have been done already, but I suggest that the minister give consideration to that need.
It would help a great deal if the minister could tell the committee something at this time about these new types of units.


James Layton Ralston: On the matter of mountain artillery I cannot say anything except that it has been considered. I do not want to make any statement with regard to it at the present time.
With respect to paratroops, I sometimes think there is a bit of mystery thrown around the words paratroops, commandos and guerillas, the term "guerilla" was used in connection with the Pacific coast rangers-

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Howard Charles Green: That is an improper
description.


James Layton Ralston: Yes, I think so. From what I understand, the basic training which has to be done in connection with all three of these types of service is very much the same. I was talking to the press the other day and I endeavoured to give what I understood to be the situation regarding the nature of that training. Those troops have to rely very largely on almost individual initiative and resourcefulness. Paratroops are dropped; you cannot expect them to form up in sections immediately; they come down at different times, on staggered occasions, and the result is each man has to fend for himself. The same is true of commandos and so-called guerilla warfare. All I can say this afternoon is that we are establishing in the west-I am not going to give the location-a battle training school for the purpose of teaching officers and non-commissioned officers the technique of battle training. Battle training, while it sounds rather imposing, means nothing more or less than a hardening and toughening process of body and cultivation of the alertness, initiative, resourcefulness and bodily ability that may serve a man in a tight corner. All these kinds of troops are needed. That school I rather anticipate will be in command of, or at least advised by, Colonel Scott of the Calgary Highlanders, whom I mentioned a moment ago, who was in charge of battle training overseas. Officers trained in that school will go back to the units and give that special training to prepare men for paratroop operations when they are necessary. It does not complete the final phase, that is, the men actually jumping from a machine. That, they tell me, is comparatively the easiest part of the training-perhaps I may be treading on the toes of men who have been trained and acted as paratroops and consider it something different from that. The formation of an actual paratroop unit is not being gone ahead with at the present moment, but rather the training of men so that they can be used as paratroops when the time comes, with additional training to be done with aircraft, except the preliminary jumps which are done from towers.
With regard to the Pacific coast militia rangers, those bodies are being formed under the provisions of the King's Regulations and Orders (Canada), and the Militia Act; they provide an organization separate from the present reserve army, and provide for the formation of a unit here and there, not

necessarily tied up with a reserve army unit. This formation is especially adapted to isolated communities; as the hon. member knows, particularly along the west coast of Vancouver island there are many of those communities. That organization is going ahead under some men who I think are extremely well qualified. I have met Colonel _ Taylor-


Howard Charles Green: He is very good.


James Layton Ralston: He is one of the men concerned. I think he has had to do with logging and lumbering companies there and knows the type of country that may have to be fought over. He is doing an exceedingly good job; at the time I was there something like forty different units had been formed.
With regard to rifles, at the present time we are asking these men to furnish their own arms because we have none too many rifles in this country considering all the obligations we have undertaken. But I fully concur in what the hon. member suggests, and just as soon as rifles become available we shall endeavour to see that these particular units are not neglected.


Grote Stirling: Is there any restriction on the type of arms they may bring?


James Layton Ralston: I do not think so, unless it has been made by the district officer commanding. I would anticipate that they would be mostly rifles. Probably within a short time there will be some augmentation of the arms they have. My hon. friend mentioned also the issue to them of machine guns. This again depends on equipment. The hon. gentleman may know that in addition to Bren guns we have some Lewis guns, particularly on the west coast; and I would hope that in due course some of those might be made available as well.
With regard to coordination, again I think my hon. friend knows that Colonel Taylor and the three other officers who are associated with him in connection with that organization are all on the staff of district headquarters. So that there is the closest coordination and integration. In fact these units are regarded as under district headquarters, they are being administered under the Militia Act, and the men have all the immunities of members of the reserve army. I am very enthusiastic about the Pacific coast militia rangers, I must say. I should add at the same time that the suggestion was made that similar formations should be set up on the Atlantic coast. We felt that it was undesirable to do this where we had the territory covered by reserve units. On the Atlantic coast we are endeavouring to

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see to it that platoons and perhaps even sections may be formed as part of the reserve unit covering a particular locality. That has been thoroughly discussed and explored with the officers commanding district headquarters both in Halifax and Saint John, and we believe it can be done. So that on this side the reserve units will not be of the militia type but rather of the army type, the difference being that one is part of a reserve battalion and the other is an. individual unit, simply a member of a corps.


Howard Charles Green: Is it the intention to establish ranger units throughout the whole province of British Columbia?


James Layton Ralston: I think it is. Colonel Taylor I believe has authority in that respect, to establish them throughout the whole of the island. But we do not want them to overlap the reserve units, in the areas covered by such reserve units. Where there is a reserve unit in an area; where a platoon or section of that unit can be formed which can keep in touch with battalion headquarters without too much trouble, we would prefer it to be a member of the reserve army.


Howard Charles Green: The minister said "throughout the island." Did he mean throughout the province?


James Layton Ralston: Along the coastline, and of course the mainland as well.


Howard Charles Green: And the interior of the
province as well?


James Layton Ralston: I was not thinking so much of the interior.


Grote Stirling: The protected area?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, more the protected area.


Howard Charles Green: I meant the whole province.


James Layton Ralston: No, that was not intended. I am thinking of the Rocky Mountain Rangers, and other units to the east of the mountains, which would cover the reserve army territory.


Howard Charles Green: I only meant where there is no reserve unit in the interior.


James Layton Ralston: I think that would be
permissible.


Mr. REID:: I should like to offer one suggestion in regard to the training of men on the Pacific coast. I refer to the lack of facilities for teaching men to shoot. There is only one rifle range close to Vancouver in the Fraser valley; that is what is called Blair range, in North Vancouver. Just a few days before I left my attention was drawn to the fact that five military trucks left Vancouver
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and proceeded to Chilliwack, which is represented by the hon. member for Fraser Valley, where they picked up fifty or sixty men whom they took to Blair range. Then the trucks left Blair range, headed back a hundred miles to Chilliwack, and then returned to Vancouver. This meant a round trip of from 380 to 400 miles in order to give this number of men a few hours of practice at the rifle range. There are considerable numbers of troops in Vancouver; there are troops in New Westminster, and other troops are being located throughout the Fraser valley. I think the minister should look into the matter of providing more rifle range accommodation, instead of endeavouring to transport all the men in training from the head of the Fraser valley and New Westminster through Vancouver and across the inlet to Blair range. I believe another rifle range should be established just as quickly as possible.


James Layton Ralston: Certainly I shall look
into the question.


George Alexander Cruickshank: That is just what I was going to speak about, so that there appears to be marvellous team work in British Columbia. There is something else that I think should be stated in regard to these guerilla units, so that it may be clear in the British Columbia press. The officer commanding has been referred to as Major Taylor, but I understand that recently he has been promoted, so that now he is Colonel Taylor. I should like it made very clear that he is Major Tommy Taylor of the old 29th, because that would promote confidence in British Columbia. Otherwise the people there might think they were being protected by Major Austin Taylor, which would be something very different.


Mr. HAZEN:: A moment ago the minister was asked a question with regard to the appointment of officers. Would he give us some further information as to how commissions are granted in the army? It was announced some time ago that every candidate for a commission had to go through the ranks; that then, if his commanding officer found that he possessed the necessary qualifications, he would be given the status of an officer cadet and would have the right to take training at an officers' training school.
The statement was made that all candidates had to pass through the ranks. At the time I did not know what that meant. I thought probably it meant that a man would have to enlist in the army; that he would have to spend some time there; that after a while he would become qualified as an N.C.O.; that after receiving some training as an
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N.C.O., and after gaining some experience, he would be recommended by his commanding officer for a course that would permit him to obtain a commission. On the other hand to pass through the ranks might mean, and perhaps did mean in this case, that all a man had to do was enlist and then within a day or two obtain a recommendation from his commanding officer which would permit him to go to an officers' training school and take a course.
I know of men who enlisted early in the war and, by reason of their qualifications, became N.C.O.'s. I know that since these men enlisted they have had a good deal of experience in handling men; that they have taken courses; that they have shown certain qualities of leadership, and some of these men would like to be recommended for commissions. Matters of this kind have been brought to my attention. But these men are not recommended by their officers commanding, probably because their officers regard them as valuable men and want to keep them in their units in the positions which they now occupy.
These men see their friends and companions, with whom they were familiar in everyday life, go into the reserve army, spend perhaps a week or two there, and then the first thing they know their friends are at Brockville taking a course, or coming away from Brockville with commissions, while they themselves continue as N.C.O.'s.
I should like to know how a man who has been in the reserve army for only a short time and who has had very little training can be recommended for a commission in this way, while other men who joined the army early in the war, who have had a great deal of experience as N.C.O.'s. are held back and denied the opportunity to obtain commissions.
There is one other thing I should like to ask the minister, and it is in connection with the reserve army. Would he tell us how these officers are appointed? Do they have to take an officers' training course after entering the army as privates, or can they be appointed in some other way?


James Layton Ralston: In reference to the
method of appointing officers, and particularly granting them commissions, so far as I know and believe the system which was announced has been followed. There are certain technical services such as the ordnance, merical and services of the kind in which officers do not need to serve in the ranks before appointment. I am sure my hon. friend is referring to the artillery, infantry and other such services. That method is being followed. Of course, my hon. friend knows that if an

officer had a commission in the reserve army, his commanding officer could recommend him to go to Brockville.
I am particularly interested in what my hon. friend said about a young man who had served a long time as a non-commissioned officer, who could not get a recommendation for the course at Brockville but who saw others who had served less time recommended for that course. I know my hon. friend does not mean it, but he has cast a grave reflection upon the commanding officer. I took my hon, friend's words down, and his theory was that this man was not recommended because the commanding officer regarded him as being valuable and wanted to keep him in his present position. I say that a commanding officer who takes that position with regard to his men is not fit to be a commanding officer. If that young man was qualified to be recommended, he should have been. If my hon. friend has any case in mind in which he thinks the commanding officers have treated young men "who were qualified in that way, he has only to bring it to my attention and I will see that the matter is promptly dealt with.
My hon. friend spoke of a young man who had been recommended after only a few days' training, but I do not think that that can be the case. These men are not recommended after a few days' training. They take their training and they are recommended in due course. My hon. friend realizes that if a man is in a unit it is necessary that he have the recommendation of his commanding officer. That may be barred to some, but I hope it is not. If a commanding officer is not playing fair, if he does not realize his responsibilities, the sooner it is brought to my attention the better it will be for the service and for the young men themselves.


Douglas King Hazen: How are officers appointed
in the reserve army?


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid I have not
the qualifications before me, but certain qualifications are required. The commanding officer of the reserve unit makes a recommendation. I cannot give my hon. friend the particulars at the moment, but I shall be glad to give them to the committee at the next sitting.


Douglas King Hazen: Do they have to start in as lieutenants or can they start in as major or with some other rank?


James Layton Ralston: I should be very much
surprised if they could. I know I had to start as a lieutenant, but I do not know whether everyone has to or not.

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Douglas King Hazen: A few days ago the papers
announced that Hon. J. B. McNair, premier of New Brunswick, had joined the reserve army as a captain and was going to camp as a captain. I wondered how it was that a man could step into that rank.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend will have
to ask the commanding officer of the Saint John district. I have no doubt that he will be able to answer in a minute. I do not think he is a man who would favour an individual because he happens to be in public life.


Mr. ISNOR:: I would not like to see this
resolution go through without bringing to the attention of the Minister of National Defence and the members of this committee, particularly those from the Pacific coast, the fact that there is another section of Canada vitally interested in our war activities. I have in mind the Atlantic coast, more particularly the coast of Nova Scotia. Paragraph (d) of the resolution reads:
The carrying out of any measures deemed necessary or advisable by the governor in council in consequence of the existence of a state of war.
Some time ago the city of Halifax, which is part of the province of Nova Scotia, made representations to the Canadian National Railways for the improvement of the underpass on the main road to Debert and other sections to the north and northwest. They did this largely because of the need for bringing in reinforcements should there be an attack on the Atlantic coast centering around Halifax. I remember quite well the explosion which occurred in the harbour of Halifax in 1917 when something like 1,700 lives were lost. It was caused by a collision of two boats at a point where only one should have been. You all recall what that meant to the port of Halifax and the people of Halifax. A similar occurrence could very well take place at the present time. We all hope it will not happen, but it is quite possible. I remember at that time the roads were blocked and it was impossible to bring into the city the doctors, nurses and others who were anxious to give assistance to those who were injured.
An officer commanding a unit in mlitary district No. 6 has stated that reinforcements could not be brought in sufficiently quickly to help to defend the port of Halifax, largely because the railway and the road could become blocked or be put out of business by sabotage. It is in this connection that I direct the attention of the Minister of National Defence to the necessity of placing
at the disposal of either the Canadian National Railways or the Department of Munitions and Supply sufficient funds to remedy this dangerous hazard which now exists, the underpass entrance at Fairview.
The city of Halifax felt that the Canadian National Railway was the proper body to deal with this matter, but a great many persons in Halifax and Nova Scotia, including myself, feel that it is really a matter of defence. I think all members of this committee realize that Halifax is playing a large part in the transporting of goods, munitions and troops overseas. If anything were to happen to prevent the reshipment of goods abroad brought in by rail to the city of Halifax, it would be a calamity so far as the empire is concerned.
This underpass is on the main artery leading into the city. As I stated a moment ago, if we were so unfortunate as to have , an attack I doubt very much whether troops could be brought in from Debert and other points quickly enough to give assistance to the defenders of Halifax. The estimate of the cost of doing this work is $137,500. Application was made to the Canadian National Railways, but the learned counsel who represented the railway company presented such a good argument that the commission decided it was not within their jurisdiction that they should spend this amount. They claimed that it was the duty of the provincial highway authorities to provide an artery sufficiently wide to carry troops to the city of Halifax. I urge the minister to take this matter into his serious consideration with a view to placing at the disposal of the proper authorities a sufficient sum to provide an artery wide enough for the transport of troops should the occasion arise when that will be necessary.
I should also like to express the thought which I believe is in the minds of a great many, if not all of those associated with the defence of the Atlantic area, concerning the commanding officers. On two occasions in this house the question was raised as to whether these men were qualified. I feel that I am expressing the thought of all in that area when I say that we are perfectly satisfied with those who have been placed in charge of the defence of the Atlantic coast. We are familiar with the background of those men, not only the officer commanding but those associated with him in the army, the navy, and the air force. We on the Atlantic coast are satisfied that these men are making a pretty good job of the work which has been assigned to them.
I should like to ask a question with regard to the reserve army officers. I do not know
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whether the officers of the reserve units are men who have volunteered for active service overseas or purely for home defence. The reserve army itself is set up for home defence, but I should like to know whether the officers of the reserve units at some time or another have volunteered for active service overseas.
In closing, may I urge the minister not to evade the question I have raised with respect to a sufficiently wide artery into Halifax- of course, I know the minister is not in the habit of evading questions or evading responsibility. What I mean is that I do not want him simply to say that the improvement of the main artery or road or underpass, or whatever he chooses to term it, is a question for some other body than the Department of National Defence. I feel that this work is so essential to the proper carrying on of our war activities that the minister should give it his very serious consideration.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend in his very last words did give me an opportunity to say just exactly what he asked me not to say.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Then my language was unfortunate.


James Layton Ralston: When he said that, I know that he recognized that I am not in a position to do more than that. I want to say to him with respect to the very representations that he has made time and time again-and no one in Halifax could ever accuse him of a lack of industry and persistence in connection with this particular matter-that I have taken it up, not from the point of view of the Department of National Defence undertaking the project itself, but in connection, with the very hearing to which he refers, the hearing before the board of transport commissioners, when the suggestion was made that some grant be made out of the grade-crossing fund. I am interested in the matter both from the point of view of the movement of troops, as he is, and also from the point of view of the citizens of Halifax.
I can only say that I will talk with the officers again about it, and I will go further and talk with my colleagues in council about it and see if any way can be found which will make the situation better. I have done tactical schemes out of Fairview-I know the situation as well as my hon. friend, and I know it is not all that one would wish to see in connection with the operation of troops in the emergency of war. Therefore, instead of using the word "consideration," I will say that I will give the matter the closest study and draw it to the attention of my colleagues and discuss it actively with them.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Thank you very much.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister has made a very satisfactory statement. I hesitate to intrude, but I happen to be very familiar with the situation at Halifax, and we all know- that there is a bottle-neck. The only question is, whose responsibility is it to have it removed? I would assume that the railway had some responsibility, that the province of Nova Scotia also had some responsibility, and from the point of view of the evacuation of Halifax and the movement of troops into Halifax, the Department of National Defence also has some responsibility. Cannot these three bodies get together and have this situation cured? It certainly can be cured. It is merely a question of jurisdiction and dollars and cents, and the sooner that situation is cured, the better. It would bring a great deal of relief to the people of Halifax, where the situation would not be good in certain eventualities. I commend the minister for his undertaking to look into the matter further. It is just a question of getting around a table and discussing joint action, to have the thing done.


Thomas Langton Church: I should like to bring two or three matters to the minister's attention. He has been very obliging in supplying a lot of information that I wanted to get.
First, I would ask him in reference to the agreement which I understand is going to be signed in Toronto to-morrow about the use of the Canadian National exhibition grounds. The city of Toronto has spent about twenty-four million dollars on the grounds and buildings and permanent exhibits, and in view of that I think the minister should be good enough to make a survey and see whether the troops from the chief recruiting district in Canada, Toronto, cannot be housed in those grounds, as well as recruits from the neighbouring cities and towns. Toronto soldiers have been sent all over the country from Halifax to Vancouver. I wish to be helpful to the minister because I appreciate the great difficulties that anyone must have in operating a war department at this time. But I would say this, that in the last war recruiting was very greatly helped by having the home units stationed near their homes, where their families could see them, and their friends, many of whom they persuaded to join the colours. That policy wras one of the greatest incentives to recruiting that we had in the last war. The minister was in the great war, and I appreciate what he did then in the matter of recruiting. The Toronto exhibition grounds comprise nearly four hundred acres. There

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is also the waterfront and the Ontario government's magnificent Elizabeth highway; the land on both sides of that 'highway is practically vacant. All this area could be used for military purposes, for the accommodation of all the regiments in southern Ontario. It is unnecessary to spend a large amount of money on another camp if proper use is made of those grounds. I hope the minister will consider the agreement with the city of Toronto and accommodate the troops of Toronto and southern Ontario in the Toronto area.
My second point is with reference to transportation. The minister a year ago brought down a return which showed that up to the end of 1940 the Canadian Pacific railway had received $2,750,000 and the Canadian National railway $2,500,000 out of the war, or pretty nearly as much as they made out of the whole four and a half years of the last war. What kind of treatment have the soldiers obtained from the railways? I travel on the trains. I have taken this matter up with the minister, and he did make some effort to get the railways to improve their soldier rolling stock.
While travelling on the railways, I see hockey, baseball, and other United States teams from across the border and touring amusement and theatrical companies pulling up in front of the stations in luxurious cars on Canada's American end of our railways on a railway paid for by the people of this country, and yet we cannot get proper rolling stock in Ontario to carry the troops. On one train I saw a car at the back with Royal Air Force boys, some having come from as far as London and from all over the Toronto district. What do they think when they see two or three luxurious coaches devoted to the use of some of the people who stay at home to whom I referred, while they themselves are packed in like a lot of sardines on an old used coach? Talk about Toronto's street railway and the overcrowding under private ownership! I have seen nothing to equal this. When troops who have to come from as far as Vancouver and Halifax receive such treatment, before another dollar is voted for betterments in this house to the railways I intend to ask for and have a showdown. The railways are making fabulous sums out of the war by the transportation of troops, munitions and food, and the people of Canada are not getting value for troop transportation. I admit that the minister sent me a reply he got last summer from the railways, promising improvements, but that was almost a year ago, and nothing much better has yet been done.
I urge the government to insist on some improvement along the line I have indicated. Soldiers should have free passage on the railroads. It is unjust and unfair to send Toronto men, who should be accommodated at the exhibition grounds in Toronto, as far away as Vancouver or the eastern seaboard, or a few over to Labrador, where they cannot get home for six months and where the cost of transportation may be as high as $180. At the same time we have a pass system under which, according to the last Duff report, 687,000 passes were granted on the two railways. Unfortunately I am not able to be a soldier, but I plead for them, and I say that a showdown is called for. I admit that the board of transport commissioners has no jurisdiction over railway companies for soldier fares in war time; under the Railway Act they have not that power; but they or some other body should be given the power or authorized to enforce what I have suggested. Trains are being run now to Camp Borden- a camp on which, I venture to say, if the present minister had been minister at the time, $7,000,000 would never have been spent. I have called it an ice-box in the winter and a hot-box in the summer, and that is exactly what it is. There was no necessity of moving so many local troops out there when we have in Toronto the exhibition grounds, when we have the Elizabeth highway, and in view of the munificent help which the Ontario government has given to the extension of their highway system. It costs $1.95 to $2.05 to go to Camp Borden on a week-end; and if there are say, three children, half-fare must be paid, or more than a week's pay to the soldier is taken from the wife and family for one visit to Camp Borden. At the same time hitch-hiking on the road has been stopped. No wonder recruiting is handicapped. I notice the Minister of Finance in his seat. I sympathize with him in a great many ways; he has shown much patience towards some hon. members; but I must say I am very sorry that he could not see his way to aid recruiting and help the Minister of National Defence in carrying on the burden of the war by giving soldiers' dependents a cost-of-living bonus, the same as civilians get who draw around $175 a month.
Another matter to which I wish to refer is the women's army. I hold in my hand a copy of a debate of forty-six pages in the British House of Commons, sent to me by a British member of parliament who is interested in women's efforts as applied to the war. There was a long debate in the British house on March 6 of this year. I have written for three or four more copies of this report to

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give to the leaders in the house. I hope that the minister and his deputy will study this question, and have time to read of what the women of Britain are doing to win the war. In my opinion a committee of the house should be appointed to study this whole question; it might include our two lady members and others of women's services. What are the women of Britain doing? In the course of the debate a British woman minister refers to the fact that in Birmingham, or Manchester, some women with three or four children are screening coal. Every woman in England is conscripted and is engaged in some war work. I do not urge that that should be the case in this country, but I believe that if the minister will study this question-and he has given it a lot of thought-he will learn how women's efforts could be greatly increased. Take the pay service, where male civilians as soldiers are employed; their work, or much of it, could be done by women, because it is done by women very well and efficiently in private industry. Note also how British women are transported to the munitions plants, and how dozens of government hostels have been erected all over the country in every district to take care of the children, the cost being borne by the government. While their children are being cared for, the women of England are engaged in the munitions plants and in all forms of production and in all kinds of work, whereas here it often happens that street cars are not available, nor are our women escorted to work and back, as they are in the old country. After all, women constitute 50 per cent of the population and will have to bear their share of paying for the war and the suffering of their children. Yet what they have had to put up with in the homes bombed and destroyed, with their soldier husbands away, is intolerable; they must look after their children, send them to school, provide them with meals, and many of them cannot keep body and soul together because of the high cost of living and lack of a bonus.
I wish to refer to one other matter. I do not think the minister will take objection to my remarks about the troops who got into trouble at Halifax. It is due to no fault of the minister, and I have already referred to the lack of equipment on the railways and his active efforts to better things. After two and a half years of war, surely a railway corporation, so well equipped with some luxury trains to which I have referred, or steamship company, can afford better accommodation for our troops. After all the people of this country have done for the railways and for shipping, they should be expected to treat our

troops decently in land and ocean services. I have in mind the complaints of those who came from Vancouver to Halifax. I believe that the large majority of those young fellows wanted to obey the law, and I regret that we are not better provided with ships and railway cars. I know something about the navigation business. I was chairman of and a member of a harbour board in those capacities for twenty-seven years; I have taken a great interest in the waterfront and in shipping. Unfortunately the Canadian National Railways and the merchant marine sold some of our finest vessels for $10,000 each. I know of ships which were built for war service in the last war, costing one and a half to one and three quarter millions apiece, which were sold for a mere nothing. The history of shipping in the five years before the war discloses a deplorable state of affairs. Largely owing to the rate of taxation in England, it was not unusual a few months before the war to see in the British newspapers pages of advertisements offering boats for as low as $50,000. Liners sold for taxes. A number of the ships, the Prince line, which the Canadian National Railways disposed of for about $10,000 could now have been used to transport our troops. I had a return of these ships of the merchant marine and the cost and sale price thereof.
In the last war there was an inquiry with reference to the Dardanelles expedition and the Mesopotamia affair which revealed a shocking state regarding the troops. The minister himself is a soldier with a very fine record, and I know he is a man of keen personal sympathies. Although I am not here to speak on and know nothing of the Halifax incident, I think there should be some further inquiry and some action taken in this matter, and I hope due consideration will be given to fair and most lenient treatment of these men, because nobody sitting up here in an office should give orders regarding an incident of this kind at Halifax until there has been a proper investigation into the cause and effect, and proper transports afforded. I hope the inquiry will relate to the conditions under which these troops are labouring in transit, and also why, after two and a half years of war, we have not adequate transportation for war purposes on land and sea.
On Saturday night I stood at the corner of Queen and Yonge streets in Toronto. I saw a great many soldiers in the air force and the army, and along came five or six ladies, officers of the women's army, and these men had to salute them. The whole principle of saluting, except on parade, should be abolished. I fail to see the common sense of soldiers who are going overseas being

War Appropriation
obliged to salute those not going overseas, or women troops. I was with a young soldier last Saturday night, a fellow who had been thirty-six times over Germany and who has now been transferred to the west coast. These are the men who have gone overseas and have been doing the fighting. Why should young soldiers in the air force and the other forces, like this young gentleman, have to salute a lot of people who are only civilian soldiers or, as a British member once called them "glorified civilians"? I am not here to criticize any man wearing the king's uniform; they deserve our praise, but I do suggest that the saluting business in principle is carried too far and except on parade it might well be abolished or curtailed. At any rate, some new, modern regulation should be made to govern this matter. I fail to see why veterans of the great war and this, and non-commissioned officers should be required to salute a lady. Every man salutes a lady in the proper way by taking off his hat, but I repeat, this saluting should be abolished or properly controlled.
I salute the minister and say to him that I hope he will go after this transportation question with which I have dealt and do something with the railways in order to improve conditions. Dear knows, improvements I suggested are badly needed. When I came here first we had a debate for six months on the question of the shipping combine in the Atlantic off Halifax. I do not know what sort of regulation we have in this war time. There was a long debate when I first came here on that shipping combine in the Atlantic and on improving it, and I do hope that this whole question will be further investigated.


James Layton Ralston: I want to return the
salute if I may. With regard to the use of the Canadian National Exhibition grounds, my hon. friend is touching on a point which I mentioned earlier to-day and which was referred to by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson), namely, the desirability of promoting community esprit de corps. No one can say more for the Toronto units than I do. They are equal or almost equal to the 85th Battalion in the last war, and I should like to see some of these fine Toronto units in Toronto. But there is a difficulty here- difficulties are always cropping up. We have not sufficient training grounds in that area for manoeuvres. It is no use for me to fool myself or to try to fool the hon. member. I say frankly that the army is not planning to have units stationed on the exhibition grounds at Toronto. What we are planning on is having the grounds used as a proper depot, because I must say for the Toronto district,
and district No. 2 generally, that I think they have carried on under as difficult conditions, so far as accommodation is concerned, as any district in Canada and have done a splendid job in connection with recruiting, notwithstanding that. We want to provide a better type of accommodation, and the exhibition grounds will give us an opportunity to do so. At the same time, no small part of the exhibition grounds will be taken up both by the air force and by the navy. We are carrying on extensive operations on the lake shore.
I cannot give my hon. friend much hope that the Toronto units will be stationed there for any length of time, but I fully agree with him as to the desirability of having that done whenever it is possible.
With regard to transportation, the hon. member ihas been the champion of the soldiers, so far as transportation fares are concerned, from the beginning of the war. He readily concedes that something has been done in connection with fares. My colleagues and I had conferences last year with the railways and we did feel that we had secured a very genuine and' substantial concession in the matter of fares. As the committee knows, we secured one-third fare on embarkation leave and one-third fare after six months, and that was contributed to by the government and the railways. I do not think I am justified in holding out any hope with regard to revision of that matter.
As to the conditions of transportation, I agree with the hon. member that improvements are desirable, but it is not the matter of money, I am assured, which leads to the paucity of rolling stock, but the necessity of devoting the car shops to the manufacture of other requirements than cars. Every scrap of rolling stock that can be used is being utilized, being shuttled back and forth from central Canada to the Atlantic coast, and as my hon. friend knows, the car shops are busy in the making not only of cars but of munitions of war. Conditions are not ideal in connection with transportation, but I do think that so far as the army is concerned there has been a slight improvement owing to the fact that a change has been -made in the matter of accommodation so that there is now no discrimination as between the army and the air force.
The hon. member speaks of hockey teams and I agree with him. He also refers to theatre companies. But if you had as many hockey teams and theatre companies travelling as soldiers you would have to provide tourist accommodation for them as well as for the soldiers. It is a question of lack of rolling stock.
War Appropriation


Richard Burpee Hanson: Supply and demand.


James Layton Ralston: Yes, and the emergent situation, in which there must he priorities having regard to the necessity and the urgency of war materials. The hon. member mentioned Borden. I agree with him about Borden so far as climate is concerned. It is an old and developed camp. The development has been crystallized and made more permanent by the air force going there as well. Instead of pulling out at Borden we are acquiring additional ground there and it does make an ideal ground for Canadian armoured corps training. We had good results so far as the fifth division is concerned, notwithstanding lack of tanks, and we shall have to keep on using Borden for a while, although we should like to use ground nearer Toronto or in Toronto if it were available.
The hon. member also referred to the boys going off the ship. That was a matter of bad accommodation; it was a combination of poor ship, short time for turn-around, and, along with that, the difficulties surrounding the fact that there were 69 different units, which gave rise to much greater trouble in the way of organization, supervision and control. That was the real cause of the trouble, and accommodation on the trip was not at all satisfactory.
The hon. member has referred to the place that women, have in connection with the defence effort. I do not think that hon. members fully appreciate what a tremendous programme has been cut out for the country in utilizing the woman power of Canada this year. If we are to do the job we have to do in the raising of men and in connection with the mobilizing of formations which we have planned, there will be a great many more women in industry than there are to-day. My hon. friend is perfectly right that one of the prime necessities in connection with getting women in is to see that those who have families are given the assurance that their families will be looked after and that, as regards all of them, there will be accommodation, recreation and training. That is a tremendous job. You have to persuade the woman that she should go into industry, you have to move her to the industry or the industry to her, you have to train her, to provide accommodation for her at the industry and, if she has children, to provide accommodation for the children, and recreation facilities and medical attention, and persuade the employer that the woman is suitable for the job. As Minister of National Defence I am vitally interested in the matter; I thoroughly agree that we ought to pay all the attention possible to the accommodation and comfort of women

who may be available to go into industry, and the hon. member will find no more enthusiastic supporter of what he advocates than I am myself.


Thomas Langton Church: I have a return here and blueprint of the pay of officers and men in all the services, and I have been asked by some hon. members if it would be possible for the minister to give each member of parliament a copy of this schedule of rates of pay. I am satisfied the members do not know what the rates of pay and sustenance allowances in the army, navy and air force of all ranks are, and I think each hon. member should be provided with this list. The inequalities are absolutely absurd.
I should also like to know whether any instructions have been given to the military authorities in No. 2 district for members of parliament to be invited to see a parade or inspect a camp or a munition plant or an air camp or something of that kind. I can say on behalf of two or three Toronto members that we have never been invited to see a camp or a parade or anything by army, air or navy since the war started. I think Toronto is about the only city in the dominion where that state of affairs exists, and it should not exist. How can hon. members represent their constituencies or vote funds when we have never been asked to see a camp or parade or attend a meeting since the war started?


James Layton Ralston: Camp Borden of course represents a good deal more than the Toronto district; my hon. friend understands that. But I will see that an invitation is given to any hon. members who want to come any time I am there. I recall that my hon. friend and I did take a salute at a parade one time at the Toronto exhibition.


Thomas Langton Church: I have never had an
invitation since the war started and I do not . want any, because I am otherwise engaged.


James Layton Ralston: I am going to ask my friend to come just the same.


Grote Stirling: There was a question I wanted to ask when the minister was dealing with the camps for reserve units, but I did not get an opportunity. When I was at home during the Easter recess I was pleased to find a happier atmosphere among units in the interior of the province with which I came in contact. The equipment question was progressing more satisfactorily, and consequently there was a happier feeling.
The minister has described the setting-up of the brigades in the various military districts. That appears to me to be an excellent idea, if those brigades can carry out training in camp as a brigade. The question I

War Appropriation
wanted to ask is whether, when these summer camps come this year, the units which compose those brigades will have an opportunity of training in brigade work. For them to be able to do that it is obvious that equipment suitable to all the units of the brigade together must be available; not only the artillery, not only the armoured units, but the signals and other technical equipment of that sort will be required. To what extent will brigade training be possible, particularly in military district No. 11?


James Layton Ralston: To a very much limited extent this year I would think. When one recalls the fact-my hon. friend recognizes it, I know-that these reserve units will be composed largely of men from thirty-five to fifty who may not have been in military work at all, there is not much chance for brigade training, if by brigade training my hon. friend means tactical training, where the infantry advances and whatever carriers there are go ahead and the infantry- and the guns are behind and the services follow up. Probably there will be opportunity for an exercise or something of that kind, but it would have to be pretty sketchy and, I would expect, not very finished. At the same time that is the kind of training I have in mind as being more attractive to the members of the reserve units than the ordinary drill ground training or even musketry or gas training. But I think it would have to be very much limited this year. I will bring my hon. friend's suggestion to the attention of the training officers and see what can be done in that respect, having regard not only to the equipment but to the possibility of carrying out something which will be intelligible.
I am told that generally speaking-and my brief experience in the service I think bore it out-brigade tactics and even battalion tactics training to no small extent is training of staff rather than of men. Sometimes you can do a brigade scheme on the ground with staff almost as well as you can with the troops themselves. For the purpose of preliminary training at least you have to have staff training first. As everyone knows, the very essential of brigade or division or even battalion training is to have your troops together and explain the whole scheme before you start, and in order to do that intelligently you have to have your staff go over the ground first.
I will bring the matter to the attention of the training officers, because I sympathize with the suggestion and should like to see it carried out.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Has the minister detailed information as to volunteers in the reserve army, as to enlistments since the programme was announced? I think that would be a matter of public interest, having regard to the agitation there has been on the Pacific as well as on the Atlantic coast, whether or not the patriotism or interest of those people who are probably most vitally concerned, those between thirty-five and fifty, is being reflected in the numbers volunteering for Canada's reserve army?


James Layton Ralston: What my hon. friend would want I think would be a progressive return, and I have not one at the present moment. I have here the figures for April 9:
Reserve units	 71,737
National Resources Mobilization Act
recruits on establishment	 5,062
Employed on training centre staff...	1,523
That gives a maximum of a little under 80,000, that is apart from the supernumeraries, that is National Resources Mobilization Act recruits who are attached to the reserve army but whom I am not counting in that figure. In order to help my hon. friend one would have to have the previous week's figures. I will endeavour to get those. I know that in Vancouver the number that have enlisted from the time the camp started was something like 1,200 to 1,400. Their objective was about 3,000 altogether.


Mr. GILLIS:: Most of the discussion this afternoon has centred on one end of the country. I had no desire to take part in the discussion, but it would appear to anyone reading the record that in regard to the question of defence we are concerned about only one end of the country. I was pleased to see one hon. member rise in his place and make some observations regarding Halifax. But I do not think he touched on the important thing so far as Halifax is concerned. I spent a week or so there within the last month, and I think the greatest danger Halifax is confronted with is the congestion that exists in the city. There has been perhaps a doubling of the population and nothing has been done with respect to establishing services to care for the increase. It is impossible to get a meal; it is impossible to get a room in a hotel. In that city there are large numbers of troops from all over the country, and naturally their families want to be with them. The rents that these airmen, sailors and soldiers are obliged to pay is something terrible, and that is one question which I think the minister should take under consideration.
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I believe a large part of the population of Halifax is non-essential, and should not be there. If there is no accommodation for the families of men who are obliged to live there, they should be made acquainted with that situation, so that their families would not be taken from one end of the country to the other to create the congestion that exists in that city to-day. In my opinion Halifax is in the worst shape of any city I have ever been in; anything could happen there. The question raised by another hon. member, as to getting people out of the city, is important and should be attended to; but I believe the influx of people into Halifax at the present time is a matter that should be taken under advisement as well. I heard some terrible stories in Halifax, stories which I would not want to repeat publicly. Perhaps the minister knows all about them, but according to the information I obtained there, from sources I consider reliable, things certainly are not in good shape.
Of course Halifax is not Nova Scotia, though a great many people think it is. In the other end of the province there is a large section where they are making fairly good strides with regard to organization for air raid precautions work and all that sort of thing. But there is one matter which I do not think has been considered. Most of the collieries of Cape Breton island are located right on the coast. I do not know whether representations have been made to the department in this connection, but for sixteen hours a day you have working in many of these collieries approximately a thousand men. They are a thousand feet under ground, some of them five miles out under the Atlantic ocean. With one shell a ship near that coast could knock down the bankhead and entomb a thousand men, and it would not have to be a very large shell, either. The miners realize this, and no doubt this would be one of the first things an enemy ship would try to do. I know the men have been taking up this matter with the companies for some considerable time, but to the best of my knowledge very little progress has been made. This I think is another matter the department should take under advisement.
Then there is the question of promotions in the arm}', the establishment of officers. On several occasions in the house the minister has stated that this time the army was being formed on a democratic basis; that service and experience were the only things that would count; that men with the necessary qualifications, who went through the basic [Mr. Gillis.l
training, would be promoted and developed into our leaders in this war. I was very glad to hear the minister make those statements, and I should like to believe them to be true. But from the information I obtain, that is not so. If the minister would ride on a regular train from Montreal to Halifax and back again, and talk to the troops on the train, I think he would get a different picture. The story I get is this, that if you enlist, take your basic training and become a non-commissioned officer, you are there for the duration. It is considered bad manners for the rank and file soldier to make application for a commission. I do not know whether or not this is true, but the minister should know. I am told that most of their officers are being pitchforked in from the top. Most of them appear to be college students.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Canadian
Officers' Training Corps.


Clarence Gillis: Yes, perhaps with the necessary pull to get a commission. They are being shoved in through the back-door. This is the one thing that will tend to break down the morale of the army to a greater extent than anything else, when you have boys who have served eight, nine or ten months, or perhaps a year in the ranks, who have the qualifications necessary to become officers and who have the respect and confidence of the men with whom they are working, and you find a group of officers brought in through another door, many of them just youngsters, given command of units over the heads of men who have been in the army for a much longer time. It breaks down discipline. There is no respect for the fellow who comes in on that basis. He does not get done what the man who served in the ranks would get done. That is the story I hear right across the country, that there is absolutely unfair treatment as far as the rank and file of the soldiers are concerned, with respect to the obtaining of a commission; in other words, rank discrimination.
There is another matter which I think the minister should take into consideration, which I believe is retarding enlistments on a voluntary basis. Most of the industrialists of Canada to-day refuse to give employment to boys who have been discharged from the army as medically unfit.


James Layton Ralston: Refuse to do what?


Clarence Gillis: Refuse to accept men in
industry who have been discharged from the army as medically unfit. I have met numbers of boys who have told me, "I have

Canada Evidence Act
applied for a job. I have done the best I could. I was in the army for four months"- or eight months, or a year-"and I cannot get a job. I present my discharge certificate, and they tell me it is not worth the paper it is written on. They say they do not want men who are physically unfit, that if I am not fit for the army I am not fit for the work they have to offer." There are many men running around with discharge certificates, many of whom have had considerable service, unable to get work. The other boys, who would like to enlist, see what happens to these men and say, "If I get a certificate showing that I am medically unfit I am out of luck as far as work is concerned," and they do not enlist. The minister should check up on that matter.
With respect to the question of women in industry, we all agree on this principle, but I think we must be careful to see that the employer does not take advantage of the present situation to weed out many of the men and bring in women at much lower wages. This has been done. Right here in Ontario men who were receiving 80 cents an hour have been shoved out of industries and replaced by women at 35 cents an hour. The principle of employing women in industry is sound, but it should not be followed until there is a shortage of labour, and certainly employers should not be permitted to take advantage of it, as some are doing at the present time.
Mr. Chairman, it is almost six o'clock and I do not want to take up any more time. I did want to make these few observations with respect to the east coast. Matters are in bad shape there, perhaps more so than on the Pacific coast. People are beginning to realize the situation, I believe one great mistake we are making is in our refusal to take the people of the country absolutely into our confidence with respect to the seriousness of the situation. It may be said that to do so would cause fear, or this, that or the other thing. It will not. I think our greatest mistake is in trying to minimize some danger that may be a great deal more serious than the people imagine. You are lulling them to sleep, and if anything should happen they will not be ready for it. If the people are told the absolute truth, with all the cards laid face up on the table, they will go to work with good heart. I know on the island of Cape Breton they are war-minded to-day. The workers themselves are taking the initiative in pushing the employers in connection with many questions. The steel workers, the miners and others are setting up production committees themselves, and so on. They are beginning to realize that the situation is serious, and they are ready to meet it with everything they have. That should be the general policy right across the country.


Mr. McCULLOCH:: Returned men are given preference in the steel and car works. I have had a great deal to do with returned men there, and I know they are given this preference.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Before I move that the committee rise, I am going to have my colleague move an amendment, that the amount mentioned in this resolution be reduced from $2,000,000,000 to $1,500,000,000.


Mr. MULOCK:: I move accordingly.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Is that because we have already voted S500,000,000?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, April 23, 1942