1942-02-27

[Stage Direction]
Mr. JEAN-FRANQOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted once more to use the traditional parliamentary language of other days and rise to a question of privilege, as a private Liberal member of this honourable house, I would bring to your attention the wording I used yesterday as reported at page 846 of Hansard:
My second question is whether the secretary of that company is at present in the employ of the government, in the Department of Munitions and Supply.
I was not stating, sir, that the man in question was in the Department of Munitions and Supply; I was asking if he was in the employ of the government in that department, which is altogether different. Then in yesterday's Evening Citizen, five o'clock edition, under the headline, "Pouliot Declares Bruce Company Official is Government Employee," I find this paragraph:
So and so-
I need not repeat the man's name.
-reported by Mr. Pouliot to be secretary of the Bruce Coal Company, is not now and never had been an employee of the department, Mr. Howe told the press this afternoon.
My reason for rising to-day, sir, is that private members, whether Liberal, Conservative, C.C.F. or Social Credit, are handicapped by the fact that the public accounts are lacking in detail. Therefore when some information is asked from any minister of the crown, the answer should not be misleading, and no minister has the right to split hairs in answering any question put by any member with regard to the expenditure of public funds, in salaries or otherwise. I took the trouble to write the civil service commission in order to obtain further information. My letter was written yesterday afternoon, immediately after I saw the item in the Citizen. The reply is as follows:
Civil Service Commission Office of the Secretary File No. FT-MS-3206
Ottawa, February 2,7, 1942.
Dear Mr. Pouliot,
Replying to your inquiry of the 26th instant, I beg to advise you that the civil service commission has been notified by the comptroller of the treasury that Mr. "Albert Edward Bradfield reported for duty on January 8, 1942, in the capacity of departmental account-

ant, grade 3, munitions and supply cost accounting office at Ottawa, at a salary of $2,700 per annum.
The duties of the position are set out in the requisition: "To investigate costs in connection with contracts for the Department of Munitions and Supply."
The civil service commission has not issued a certificate for Mr. Bradfield's employment.
Yours very truly,
E. Saunders,
Secretary.
I want you, sir, to understand my point, as I am sure you do. Technically perhaps the man was not in the Department of Munitions and Supply, but he was there in person, just the same as the accountant of the House of Commons is in this building, though he comes under the Minister of Finance. Therefore, sir, summarizing all that I have said, I do not speak very often-
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Mr. POULIOT:: -if hon. members think I do speak often, at least my remarks are very brief, but I try to do my work just as conscientiously as I can, and I am not a conscientious objector. I want exact answers, and I do not want any more misleading answers of this kind from any minister of the crown.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) asked his question when the orders of the day were called at the last sitting of the house. This is the first opportunity I have had to answer his question. An answer has been prepared, and I shall now read it.
Whilst A. E. Bradfield is not now and never has been an employee of the Department of Munitions and Supply, he was employed in January of 1942 by the Department of Finance, treasury branch, and is nowworking under Mr. F. E. Wood in the accounting section of that department.
This is the first opportunity I have had to give this answer. I think it answers everything my hon. friend mentioned in his speech. I do not know the purpose of the speech, but I wish to say that I try to treat hon. members as courteously as I can, and to give them the information asked for as quickly as possible.


Jean-François Pouliot: My information was more complete than the minister's.



PLEBISCITE ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Secretary of State) presented the first report of the special committee appointed to consider Bill No. 10,

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respecting the taking of a plebiscite in every electoral district in Canada and the taking of the votes of such plebiscite of Canadian service voters stationed within, and without Canada, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That it is expedient that the Senate and House of Commons do approve the trade agreement between Canada and Chile signed September 10, 1941, and that this house do approve the same.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it will be observed that standing in my name as Secretary of State for External Affairs there are three resolutions similar in terms appearing under government notices of motion to-day. They relate to three countries, namely, Chile, Brazil .and the Argentine. The agreements are between those three countries and Canada.
If the house will give its consent, it might be understood that the discussion on all three resolutions could take place at one and the same time. I do not believe that would confuse matters in any particular; on the contrary in my opinion it would, if anything, clarify them. If necessary I shall ask permission to introduce a special resolution for the purpose, but if it were now understood that consent had been given for discussion of the three resolutions at one and the same time I would waive that formality.


Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the request is a reasonable one, to which I believe the house might properly consent. At the moment I see no objection to the procedure suggested. I should like to see a fairly general discussion, because these resolutions involve an important question, despite the fact that the trade in actual dollars and cents may not be relatively large. We are about to consider an important problem, especially in its relation to the postwar period, and, I hope that hon. members will take part in the discussions. It is my Intention to speak briefly myself, after hearing the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I am prepared personally to give consent to the Prime Minister's suggestion.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I thank the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) and other leaders of groups in the house for giving consent to the discussion taking place as indicated.
The other two resolutions are similar in form to the one with reference to Chile. They are as follows:
Resolved that it is expedient that the Senate and House of Commons do approve the trade agreement between Canada and Brazil signed October 17, 1941, and that this house do approve the same.
Resolved that it is expedient that the Senate and House of Commons do approve the trade agreement between Canada and the Argentine Republic signed October 2, 1941, and that this house do approve the same.
The first agreement, namely the one between Canada and Chile, was signed in Chile on September 10, 1941, and has been provisionally in force since October 15, 1941. The trade agreement between Canada and the Argentine Republic was signed at Buenos Aires on October 2, 1941, and has been provisionally in force since November 15 of that year. The trade agreement between Canada and Brazil was signed at Rio de Janiero on October 17, 1941, and has been in force provisionally since October 17, 1941.
The three agreements were tabled in the house at the close of the last session, and the agreements themselves appear in printed form in the Votes and Proceedings of the house for November 3, 1941. It was thought that the latter part of the last session would not be a convenient time to discuss these measures, and for that reason they were left for the approval of parliament until the present time. * Except for the purpose of enabling me to explain the formalities of procedure, it might have been preferable to have the resolutions stand in the name of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, because he is the one who was responsible for their negotiation, and the member of the administration who will explain their terms to the house. However, as the Department of External Affairs is specially charged with matters respecting treaties and agreements, and as it is in that department, that formalities of signing, ratification and the like have to be arranged and completed, it seemed appropriate that I should be the one to present the resolutions.
While the trade agreements have been in force provisionally since the dates I have mentioned, the continuance of their operation requires the approval of both houses of parliament by joint resolution, and subsequent ratification by the Secretary of State for External Affairs. That is the position so far as Canada is concerned. The same would apply in corresponding manner to the administrations in the other countries concerned.
The first question which I know will arise in the minds of some hon. members is as to how it has come about that an agreement
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has been signed, and is even provisionally in operation, without parliament having had an opportunity of passing upon it in the first instance. That question invariably arises in respect to agreements and treaties that have been entered into before being presented to parliament. The explanation, of course, is that the making of treaties and agreements are executive acts. In the making of treaties and agreements the government must take into account its responsibility to parliament. It must realize that if it is not in a position to obtain the approval of parliament, then it would incur defeat and the penalty of retirement from office.
It would be impossible for public assemblies to discuss agreements between different nations before they were actually signed. Hon. members will appreciate the many questions which develop in connection with the negotiation of any agreement. Negotiations of necessity are carried on among persons appointed for that purpose. This present stage of proceedings therefore is one wherein we seek to receive* the approval of the house and, later, that of the other house, to the three trade agreements as negotiated.
The agreements themselves are all of the nature of agreements affording most-favourednation reciprocal treatment between the countries which have entered into them. They are similar to other agreements of the mostfavoured-nation type which have been entered into in recent years. Four such agreements have been signed recently. One between Canada and Uruguay was approved in the session of 1937. One between Canada and Guatemala was approved in the session of 1938. One with Haiti received approval in the 1938 session, and an agreement with the Dominican republic was approved in the session of 1940. I believe in the case of the first three agreements mentioned this House of Commons proceeded by way of bills. However, with respect to the Dominican republic agreement, the procedure was simply by way of resolution approving the agreement. The reason that no bill is required is that no statute is being amended in any way. All the agreement does is to give most-favourednation treatment by one country on its part to the other, and to ensure that the most-favoured attitude will be reciprocated by the other country. If the agreement did in any way change a statute, of course it would be necessary to proceed by way of a bill. However, in the form in which these agreements are, and having regard to their contents, approval by resolution is all that is necessary.
I had one particular object in mind in taking upon myself the introduction of the

resolutions. It was that I felt that I should like in the name of the government of Canada to express our thanks for their many courtesies to the governments of the several countries in South and Central America which were visited in the fall of last year by the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the trade mission of which he was the head. Hon. members will recall that among the countries which received my hon. friend, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and his mission, were Ecuador, Peru, Chile, the Argentine, Uruguay and Brazil. In each of these countries the minister and the members of his party were extended exceptional hospitality and received the utmost in the way of cooperation in the furtherance of the object of the mission itself.
In the case of the three republics with which agreements with Canada have been entered into, a definite step forward has been taken in securing the advantages of improved trade relations. At this time of war the actual value in terms of trade may not be considerable, in fact may amount to very little, but there is great value in the fact that the treaties themselves serve to express friendship and goodwill between these particular republics in another part of the western hemisphere and the Dominion of Canada. I have received word from our ministers in the Argentine and Brazil since the establishment of our legations in South America that the trade mission which visited those countries has been greatly appreciated by the citizens. They felt that the mission itself had done a great deal to make Canada and its resources better known, had brought our country more to the fore than it had been at any time in the past. I might add that I have been told the same thing by the Hon. Doctor Pablo Santos Munoz, minister of the Argentine republic and the Hon. J. A. Lins de Barros, minister for Brazil, whom we are pleased to have at Ottawa as the representatives of these countries.
Hon. members will have noticed that the name of the Argentine republic has come before us recently in connection with the protection which is being given Canada's interest in Japan at the present time by that country. I mention this as indicative of the closer relations and cooperation which our country in the last year has come to enjoy with South America.
To-day, when conditions have become so much more serious in all parts of the world and where North and South America have been drawn together to a degree that has never obtained heretofore, it is particularly fortunate that we should have established diplomatic relations with these countries

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through the legations which they have opened in Ottawa and which we have opened in Brazil, the Argentine and Chile. It is also fortunate that we should have established with these countries at this time of war the foundations for closer trade relations in the post-war era. When the war is over the way will already have been paved' for the immediate development of trade on as large a scale as may be possible. This service will be due in no small measure to the trade mission which my hon. friend, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, headed last fall. The house will, I feel sure, permit me to extend to him the congratulations of its members upon the success of the mission and his leadership of it. If I am not going too far, and from the response apparently I am not, I should also like to extend these congratulations to him on behalf of the government.
The leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) has suggested that if the Minister of Trade and Commerce were at this moment to make his statement, which I have no doubt will be complete, it would lay the foundation for a further discussion of the matter.


Mr. GREEN:: May I ask the Prime Minister what is the situation with regard to the other countries which were visited but with which apparently no treaties have been made?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am going to leave that to my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Richard Burpee Hanson: At some stage would it not be desirable if the house could go into committee so that hon. members might ask questions? I would not suggest that that be done at this stage, because the minister ought to have a chance to make his statement uninterrupted by questions. But it may be desirable at some stage after those who wish to do so have made extended remarks-I hope they will not be too extended-to have the house go into committee so that there may be opportunity for questions and answers.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As my hon. friend is aware, it is not necessary for the house to go into committee of the whole to discuss the resolution, but the house may so decide of its own accord. If it is thought to be opportune, after the minister and other hon. members have spoken in a formal manner, to have discussion in committee of the whole, I am sure that consent will immediately be given for that purpose.


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: In officially submitting my report on the first government-sponsored Canadian trade mission to South America, I desire not only to give to the house the actual accomplishments of the mission but to be permitted to go beyond this, and touch briefly on our visit to each country, how and by whom we were received, something of our reception, and a few highlights regarding each country visited. I should like to have gone into these matters more fully than my time will allow, because I am sure that it is tremendously important that Canada discovers South America and learns about the great countries there and the developments that are there taking place.
The success of our trade mission was unique inasmuch as we accomplished' our objective in each country visited. The timing of the visit was fortunate, and for this good judgment the credit goes entirely to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King).
A word about the personnel of our party. Outstanding, of course, was the Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce, Mr. L. D. Wilgress, whose reputation for fairness, sincerity and practical knowledge had preceded us. Of Mr. Wilgress I cannot speak too highly. Mr. Yves Lamonitagne, Director of Commercial Relations in my department, was of great strength to the mission, and his inclusion in it, with his bilingualism, made a definite appeal wherever we went. Mr. Escott Reid, of the Department of External Affairs, not only ably represented that department in familiarizing himself with conditions in the various countries visited, but by his tact and courtesy made a definite contribution. The very important and exacting work of secretary of the mission was most capably handled by Mr. A. C. L. Adams.
The objective of the mission was not immediate results, although we hoped to get and are getting these, but rather the laying of the best possible foundations upon which after-the-war trade can be effectively built. It is well known that we could be shipping huge South American requirements now were it not that, most properly of course, the munitions and supplies requirements of our war programme take first place. The matter of shipping also mitigates against our exports to and our imports from South American countries at this time.
The Canadian trade mission which left Ottawa on August 14 last and returned on October 28 was a resumption of the mission commenced in November, 1940, and abandoned because of my illness. Countries visited included Ecuador, Peru, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil, all south of the equator.
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A short stop was made at Port of Spain, Trinidad, on the return trip following an invitation to the mission from the governor of Trinidad to visit that colony for the purpose of discussing matters pertaining to trade between Canada and several of the West Indian colonies.
The mission's visit had several aims. The general objective was exploratory. We desired to investigate opportunties for the development of reciprocal trade between Canada and the countries visited and, when and where possible, remove obstacles which hindered progress in commercial relations. Powers were conferred upon me by the governor in council enabling me to conclude most-favoured-nation trade agreements, thereby removing or preventing discrimination against Canadian products in respect to tariff matters and exchange control.
An important aspect of the visit was the furtherance of goodwill. The mission found during its tour that in all the countries visited there was the highest regard for Canada and a general desire to strengthen trade relations.
The mission was received with the utmost courtesy on its arrival in each country. We were accorded the greatest hospitality and every possible facility was extended to us.
In each country visited the press devoted very considerable space to the activities of the mission and stressed the character and importance of the visit.
We first visited the countries on the Pacific coast, Ecuador, Peru and Chile, in the order given.
Up to the time of our visit Canada possessed no trade agreements with these countries. A feature of Canada's trade common to all three countries is the fact that over the last decade their balance of trade has been favourable to Canada. The favourable balance for 1940 with the three countries was $2,181,000, and for 1941, $654,000.
Compared with Canada's trade with the world, our trade with the countries on the western coast of South America is small, but the figures assume greater significance to them because their export and import trade is on a considerably smaller scale than ours.
Trade is an exchange of goods, a two-way process, and if we are to continue to sell our products abroad we must be ready to reciprocate. To the extent at least that we can increase our purchases from all the Latin-American countries we shall make it possible for them to increase their purchases from Canada.

It is interesting to note that while the balance of trade between Canada and Argentina and Brazil was favourable to Canada in 1938, it became favourable to these two countries in 1940. The volume of trade in both directions has in fact expanded, which is a satisfactory development. In 1941 Brazil increased its favourable balance but the balance became favourable to Canada in regard to Argentina.
With respect to Uruguay, we find that taking 1939 and 1940 together, our exports and imports from that country are about balanced, whereas in years prior to 1939 the balance of trade has been in Canada's favour. In 1941 the balance was again substantially favourable to this country.
The six countries of South America visited by the mission are inhabited by 75 million people. Brazil has about 45 million inhabitants, Argentina about 13 million, and Chile a population of 5 million. The total population of this group of countries, therefore, is 63 millions or approximately 84 per cent of the total population of the six countries visited.
The total imports of these six countries amounted to an aggregate value of $956,800,000 in United States dollars in 1938, Argentina, Brazil and Chile together accounting for 88 per cent of this total (United States, $838,500,000). This gives an idea of the purchasing power available in these three countries alone.	*
The aggregate exports of these six countries were approximately $1,020,000,000 in United States dollars in 1938, the Share of Argentina, Brazil and Chile being 86 per cent of this total (United States, $872,400,000).
In 1938 Canada's exports to the six countries totalled $9,961,000 (in each case United States dollars), of which $8,801,000 or 87 per cent were consigned to Argentina, Brazil and Chile. In 1940 our total exports to the six countries amounted to $14,874,000, of which Canadian exports to Argentina were $6,107,000; to Brazil $5,063,000 and to Chile $1,436,000 or 85 per cent of the total. In 1941 the total was $20,092,000-$7,172,000 to Argentina; $8,097,000 to Brazil and $1,788,000 to Chile, these three countries again taking 85 per cent of the total.
Canada's total imports from the six countries in 1940 amounted to $14,129,000 ($12,960,000 or 92 per cent from Argentina, Brazil and Chile), and in 1941 the total was $28,134,000 of which 87 per cent came from these three countries.
As a matter of reference I would like to put these figures on Hansard in tabular form, if I may have the consent of the house so to do.

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	Population and Trade of Six Countries Visited		
Argentina	
Brazil	
Chile	Population (estimated)	Imports 1938 U.S.$ 442.600.000 292.700.000	Exports 1938 U.S.$ 437.600.000 296.100.000Ecuador	
Uruguay	
Peru	10.300.000 48.600.000 59.400.000	11.700.000 58.900.000 77.200.000Total (A)	956,800,000	1,020,200,000First 3 countries....	838,500,000	872,400,000P.C. of total (A)..,	88 per cent	86 per cent
Trade of Canada with the Six Countries Visited-1938 Canadian Dollars
Argentina	
Brazil	
Chile	
Ecuador	
Uruguay	
Peru	
Total (B)...
First 3 countries
Argentina	
Brazil	
Chile	
Ecuador	
Uruguay	
Peru	
Total (C)... First 3 countries P.C. of total (C)
Argentina	
Brazil	
Chile	
Ecuador	
Uruguay	
Peru	
Total (D)...
First 3 countries
P.C. of total (D)
Canadian exports to:
4.675.000
3.522.000
604.000
52,000
216.000
892,000
9,961,000
8,801,000(87%)
6.107.000
5.063.000
1.436.000
131.000
610.000
1.527.000
14,874,000
12,606,000
85 per cent
7.172.000
8.097.000
1.788.000 162,000 931,000
1.942.000
20,092,000
17,057,000 85 per cent
Imports		Balance
from:		of trade
2,149,000	+	2,526.000769.000	+	2,753,000179.000	+	425.00028,000	+	24.000137,000	+	79.0003,005,000	2,113,0006,267,000	+	3,704,0003,097,000(50%)	+	5,704,0006,542,000	435,0006,243,000	-	1.180,000175,000	+	2,261,00026,000	+	105,000431,000	+	179.000712,000	+	815,00014,129,000	+	745,00012,960,000	-	354,00092 per cent	4,764,000	+	2,408,00019,444.000	-	11,347,000233,000	+	1,555,000170,000	-	8,000688,000	+	243,0002,833,000	891,00028,134,000	-	8,042,00024,443,000	-	7,386,000
87 per cent
It is only necessary that the three agreements negotiated with the countries of Chile, Argentina and Brazil be ratified by this house. The arrangement made with Ecuador was what is known as a modus vivendi and is a temporary agreement pending formal treaty. I wish, however, to give this house information in regard to our visit to Ecuador, Peru
and Uruguay in addition to particulars of the three countries with which formal trade agreements were completed.
Having given a summary of the trade position with the South American countries which we visited, I intend now to deal particularly with the situation in each country. En route to Ecuador, sailing from New York

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and on through the Panama canal, we touched at the Colombian port of Bonaventura but our first formal call was at Guayaquil, the main port of Ecuador. So as to enable us to see something of the country we travelled by rail and motor car from Guayaquil sea level to Quito, the capital, which is at an altitude of some 10,500 feet.
The trip was exceedingly interesting-plantations of pineapples, bananas, coffee and cocoa-and on the higher uplands at altitudes of eight and eleven thousand feet, grain and vegetables.
In our Rockies at this elevation there is of course perpetual ice and snow, but we were almost on the equator and in the territory of the great Inca empire of pre-Columbus days. Thousands and thousands of Indians in their colourful costumes tended the crops of, in many cases, the absentee landlords. Quito for the tourist with its ancient civilization is most interesting. Churches and other buildings erected shortly after Columbus' discovery are still giving service.
The morning after our arrival we paid our official call on the president and met the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Doctor Julio Tobar Conoso, and the Ministers of Agriculture and Finance, with their officials. Arrangements were made for us to have immediate conversations in regard to a possible trade treaty.
Because Ecuador's balance of trade with Canada was unfavourable to Ecuador, that country had imposed,, in 1936, a surtax of 50 per cent on imports from Canada. This had the effect of immediately reducing the value of Canada's exports to Ecuador by one-half, and we were anxious to rectify this position.
The itinerary allowed the mission but one day in Quito, the capital, but negotiations resulted in an arrangement being made under an exchange of notes which not only removed the existing surtax, but, by placing the trade between Canada and Ecuador on the basis of most-favoured-nation treatment, extended to Canada the benefit of reductions of duties on Ecuador's minimum tariff which had been granted to the United States, under a trade agreement signed in 1938 and which affected thirty-three tariff items, the most important of which was flour.
Ecuador imports about 250.000 barrels of flour annually. In 1936, Canadian flour exports to Ecuador amounted to 18,452 barrels valued at $98,723, and since that year, because of the surtax, there have been no exports of Canadian flour to Ecuador up to October, 1941. In November and December, immediately after our visit, over one thousand

barrels of flour have been exported to Ecuador. Our flour trade is in this way now being reestablished.
In 1940 Canada exported to Ecuador goods valued at $130,721 while our imports from Ecuador amounted to $25,676 only.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Relatively very small.


James Angus MacKinnon: Relatively very small, yes. That was in 1940.
In 1941 Canadian exports were $162,147 and imports $169,713.
Canada's main exports to Ecuador, at the present time, are newsprint, paper bags, farm implements, calcium carbide and sodium compounds. Other exports which stand to benefit as a result of the modus vivendi include patent leather, wallpaper and electrical apparatus.
The chief products imported into Canada from Ecuador are petroleum, cocoa beans, crude rubber, coffee, bananas and hard woods.
As will be readily understood from the way in which the exchange of notes was facilitated, we found a most friendly attitude on the part of all.
In the evening we met a great many of the business men of Quito at a reception given by the British minister, Mr. G. H. Bulock.
We flew from Quito to Lima, Peru, 1100 miles and had a most interesting view of the coastal district. An interesting pause in our flight was at Talara, Peru, the headquarters of the great International Petroleum development. Canadians, who gathered at the airport to meet us, regretted our inability to stay over and see this great Canadian development.
May I digress here, Mr. Speaker, to mention the ambassadors of Canada we have in our representatives in South America of Canadian enterprise. I refer among others, to our banks, our life insurance companies, our oil companies and Brazilian Traction.
The district of heavy tropical rains ended shortly after leaving Guayaquil, and from that point to Lima the country is barren and cultivation is only possible in comparatively small areas in the valleys, by irrigation. In Lima we found the Minister of Finance and Commerce, Mr. David Dasso, particularly friendly and cooperative. Mr. Dasso, when called to government service by the President of Peru, had for six or eight years been an active vice-president of the American Locomotive Works Incorporated, New York. Discussions had been arranged with us and for us with a permanent commission of very high standing known as the Foreign Political Economic Commission, which deals with matters pertaining to the commercial and economic life of Peru. This commission included Dr. Tudela as president, a former

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ambassador in the diplomatic service; Mr. Benjamin Roca, director of the Guano Administrative Company and recognized as one of the outstanding economic advisors in South America; Mr. de Althaus, president of the Central Reserve bank, and Messrs. Miranda, president of the National Agricultural Society, and Alayza Roel, president of the Unemployment Funds Commission.
As Peru was at that time engaged in trade negotiations with another country, they thought it inadvisable to conclude a formal treaty with Canada until finality had been reached in their other negotiations.
Before the mission left Peru, however, notes were exchanged between the mission and the Peruvian Economic Commission expressing the desirability and definite intention of the two countries to conclude an agreement on a most-favoured-nation basis at the earliest possible opportunity. I have just had, informally, personal word from the Peruvian government, through their foreign minister, Mr. Dasso, that it is anticipated that their trade negotiations to which I have referred will likely be completed within a few days and that correspondence looking to a formal ratification of the understanding between our countries will then be undertaken.
Canada's exports to Peru have increased considerably since the pre-war year of 1938, when they amounted to $892,089. In 1940 they totalled $1,527,210, an increase of 70 per cent, and in 1941 our exports increased to $1,941,909.
In 1938 Canada's imports from Peru amounted to $3,004,743, and Canada had an adverse balance of trade with Peru of about $2,113,000. In 1939 the position was reversed; our imports from Peru dropped to $601,224 due to decreased shipments of Peruvian petroleum to Canada, while Canadian exports rose to $1,244,776, leaving a balance, favourable to Canada, of about $643,000. In 1940 the further rise in Canadian exports to Peru to $1,527,210 was also accompanied by a rise in our favourable balance with that country to $815,000. In 1941 the situation was reversed and the balance of trade was adverse to Canada by $891,000.
I might add that the entertainment arranged for us while at Lima included an official dinner by the president of the republic, Doctor Manuel Prado, at the palace. We had a most interesting trip on the Central Railway, which serves the great copper mining area to the east of Lima. We were given the opportunity to see something of the agricultural activities through a week-end visit to the hacienda of a Mr. Beltran, a very prominent resident of Lima. Other social activities included luncheons by finance minister Dasso and the British
Chamber of Commerce; a reception by the British Commonwealth society; a dinner by the local manager of the Royal Bank of Canada and a luncheon by H. M. Minister, Mr. V. Courtenay Forbes.
I mention this entertainment here and in connection with all the other countries visited to show the warmth of the welcome extended to us as Canadians-not personally but as representatives of a country that has to them suddenly assumed great importance. We found a very definite interest in our country and a great new-found respect for us arising out of the peeping into South America of reports of what Canada was planning and accomplishing in its great war effort. They, in general, had known of us vaguely as a country lying between the United States and the North Pole, but now they are seeing us as a great new country, destined to take an even more important part in world trade.
May I just mention here, Mr. Speaker, what an eye-opener and what a liberal education our South America tour was to me and to my colleagues of the trade mission. When opportunity offers and circumstances make it possible, I hope Canadians will turn southward and learn about these great developing countries of South America and their great peoples.
From Lima we proceeded to Santiago, Chile, again travelling by air a distance of roughly fifteen hundred miles. Apart from the views of the Andes which rose to great heights above the clouds, it was not possible to see much of the country as we were flying at a height of about 12,000 feet, well above a blanket of clouds.
When we arrived at Santiago on September 3 it was their springtime and the district in the vicinity of Santiago was very attractive with the fruit trees in blossom, beautiful stretches of green country-side, and the snowcapped Andes in the near distance. Our welcome was most cordial.
We paid our official call on the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Commerce, H. E. don Juan Rosetti, the day after our arrival and again we found that arrangements had been made for the immediate commencement of trade discussions.
Previous to our visit Canada had no direct trade treaty with Chile.
In 1931 Chile and the United Kingdom concluded a trade arrangement on the basis of most-favoured-nation treatment, and in the past certain countries had been granted special concessions by Chile in trade agreements but these advantages had not been extended to Canada.
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Negotiations between Canada and Chile had been undertaken early in 1936 on the basis of most-favoured-nation treatment but little progress was -made, one of the main reasons being that the balance of trade between the two countries was unfavourable to Chile. Another problem was the granting of foreign exchange by Chile for the purchasing of Canadian goods. Ohile, however, was anxious to obtain the advantages of the Canadian intermediate tariff as regards one of its most important exports-nitrates.
A trade agreement between Canada and Chile was signed at Santiago on September 10, 1941. Subsequently an order in council passed in Ottawa on October 1 extended mostfavoured-nation treatment to imports into Canada from Chile provisionally as from October 15, 1941, and a decree No. 3,428 dated October 17, published in the Chilian Official Journal of November 4, 1941, provided for unconditional and unlimited most-favourednation treatment for Canadian goods entering Chile.
Based upon mutual concession of mostfavoured-nation treatment in matters pertaining to tariffs, import quotas and foreign exchange control, the treaty provides:
(a)	For the extension to Chile of the benefits granted under Canada's intermediate tariff as regards imports into Canada from that country. In return, Canadian goods exported to Chile enjoy the rates of duty under the minimum tariff.
(b)	On the basis of most-favoured-nation treatment, Canada enjoys the benefits of any reductions which may be granted to other countries by Chile, and, conversely, Chile is granted any reductions under the intermediate tariff which Canada may grant as a result of tariff negotiations with other countries or otherwise.
(c)	The tariff advantages which Canada may grant to imports from empire countries are excluded under the provisions of the agreements, as well as the treatment which Ohile may reserve to imports from contiguous countries.
Where governments have established monopolies which affect the production, sale or importation of certain products, provision is made for fair and non-discriminatory treatment by the respective signatories of the trade agreement.
The agreement also provides against discrimination with respect to internal taxes and charges on imports.
Provision is made for consultation between Canada and Chile on the various matters covered by the agreement so that mutually satisfactory adjustments may be effected when

measures are taken which may impair any of the objects of the agreement.
Exemption from the provisions of the agreement is made with respect to measures relating to public security, the enforcement of police or revenue laws and regulations, and the measures affecting imports and exports of gold and silver, and of war materials.
Special advantages granted to adjacent countries in order to facilitate frontier traffic and any advantages accorded to a third country resulting from a customs union are also exempted from the provisions of the agreement.
The agreement is for a period of two years.
I am outlining the agreement with Chile in detail as the agreements signed with Argentina and Brazil are practically identical, except that in the agreement with Argentina the special situation existing between that country and Peru as regards matters pertaining to foreign exchange is recognized. This agreement also recognizes the situation which exists as regards the conditions which govern trade between Argentina and the United Kingdom at the present time, although this matter is not referred to in the text of the agreement.
In brief Canada and Chile extend to each other most-favoured-nation treatment as regards tariff and all matters relating to control of foreign exchange and imports, with certain derogations relating to advantages granted by Canada to the British empire on the one hand and, on the other, by Chile to its contiguous countries.
The agreement also provides that products of Canada and Chile imported into the other country are not to be subject, with certain specified exceptions, to internal taxes, fees, charges or exactions higher than those payable on like articles of national origin or any other foreign origin.
Provision is also made that nitrate of soda and iodine, two important natural products of Chile, shall not be subject on importation into Canada to any form of quantitative control of imports less favourable, nor to duties or charges higher than, like products, natural or synthetic, originating in any other foreign country.
The trade agreement provides that it is to come into force thirty days after exchange of ratifications and provides that it is to remain in force for two years. It is to be renewed automatically thereafter for further periods of one year, subject to termination by either party on six months' notice. Pending the definite coming into force of the agreement it was put into force provisionally by both governments for a period of one year as from October 15, 1941.

Trade Agreements
Advantages to Canada. By assuring reciprocal most-favoured-nation treatment in respect to tariffs and exchange control, the trade agreement signed between Canada and Chile guarantees Canadian exports against discrimination in the event that Chile should conclude agreements with other countries providing for reductions below Chile's minimum tariff.
_ There are in force in Chile some conventional rates of duty, lower than the normal tariff, which will be accorded to imports from Canada under the agreement. These arise mainly from a trade agreement between Chile and France signed January 16, 1936. Among the products to which these reduced duties apply are preserved meats and vegetables, certain cotton yarn and1 cloth, medicinal preparations, gloves and certain other leather manufactures, wool and silk clothing, certain chemicals, structural iron and steel, toilet preparations, wallpaper and some other paper manufactures.


Richard Burpee Hanson: In the course of his statement has the minister taken occasion to give information with respect to the Chilean tariffs? It will be interesting to know. I have no means of access to them at the moment and I should like to know whether they are high or low, or what they are, generally speaking.


Mr.   MacIIINNON@Edmonton West: They vary according to the commodity.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would assume that.


James Angus MacKinnon: They vary very definitely according to the commodity, on account of the foreign exchange situation at the present time. I have not gone into that aspect definitely, but if and when we are able to discuss this matter, in committee or on my estimates, I shall be glad to give the leader of the opposition that information.
Advantages to Chile. The trade agreement assures Chile of the benefits accruing from Canada's intermediate tariff and removes the 3 per cent special excise tax on the duty paid value of imports when such imports are dutiable under Canada's general tariff, Canada's imports from Chile have consisted mostly of sodium nitrate, manila fibre, field seed and fresh onions, manganese oxide and undressed furs.
In 1940 Canada's total imports from Chile amounted to $174,6S8 and in 1941 $233,471, as against $226,158 in 1939. The main feature of Canada's trade with Chile is that we have had a favourable balance of trade with that
country for many years. In 1933 that favourable balance amounted to $222,000. In 1939 it amounted to over $730,000; in 1940 to over $1,261,000 and in 1941 it rose to $1,554,955.
The total trade between Canada and Chile, as shown in Canadian trade statistics, has increased yearly from about $234,000 in 1933, at the end of the depression, to about $1,611,000. In both these years and in the intervening period, the balance of trade has been considerably in Canada's favour, as the following table shows:
Total Total
Calendar	exports imports Balance
year	to Chile from Chile of trade
1933	
227,922	5,877	222,0451934	
538,015	26,283	511,7321935	
856,348	53,953	802,3951936	
893,598	97,314	796,2841937	
928,176	67,744	860,4321938	
604,373	178,522	425,7511939	
956,592	226,158	730,4341940	
1,436,333	174,688	1,261,6451941	
1,788,426	233,471	1,554,955
The policy of the government is, during the war, not to make public details of Canada's foreign trade in respect to the value of specific commodities exported or imported. However, Canada's exports to Chile in 1940 rose to well over twice our exports in 1938 and almost seven times our exports in 1933. Our exports to Chile in 1941 exceeded the figures for 1940 by over $350,000.
The principal commodities which Canada exports to Chile are: Newsprint, rubber tires, farm implements, asbestos, rubber, boots and shoes, electric apparatus, iron pipes and fittings, rubber belting, wood pulp, soda and sodium compounds. Sawn lumber has recently been added to this list. Among the minor items are herrings, dry-salted; whiskey; canvas shoes with rubber soles; artificial silk manufactures; veneers and plywood; wallpaper; needles; hardware; storage batteries; telephone and telegraph apparatus; medicinal preparations and brushes.
I have mentioned rubber tires and rubber belting. These were taken from the trade figures of recent years, but of course shipments of these commodities, which are required so badly at home, now are being held in Canada.
We have instituted an intensive study of what additional purchases can be made from Chile, for an unbalanced trade can not be continued with satisfactory results indefinitely. With European wine supplies cut off indefinitely there might be a market in Canada for the excellent Chilean wines which are held in high favour wherever used.
Our very warm reception and the great hospitality extended to our mission was evidence of the interest in Canada at this time. The late president of Chile, although in failing
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health at the time, officially and informally received us. The foreign minister, Mr. Rosetti, gave a large luncheon in our honour following the conclusion of treaty discussions. Among others Who entertained us at dinner, luncheon or reception were the Chilean chamber of commerce, the British chamber of commerce, the British embassy, the Central Bank of Chile, the British Legion and the Free French organization.
We broke our stay at Santiago to spend two days at Vina del Mar and at Valparaiso, the main port of Chile, where many old established British firms are operating.
We chose what is known as the lake route to go from Santiago to Buenos Aires, going by rail some 550 miles south from Santiago, then by steamer and bus across a chain of lakes connected by short stretches of road to Bariloche and from there by rail to Buenos Aires.
This gave us an opportunity to see something of the Chilean farming districts in the central south which very closely resemble the central Alberta country. The lake region itself is most attractive and reminded us of our own mountain lakes-Louise, Emerald and Maligne, but in Chile and the Argentine these lakes are bordered with cultivation and these lakes, small and large, form part of a transportation route-with splendid boats and connecting bus lines. This, apart from flying, is at the moment the most dependable route over the Andes.
As we crossed the border from Chile to Argentina an officer in charge of a detachment of troops presented the compliments of the Argentine government and at Puerto Blest where we took the boat for Bariloche we met the Argentine minister of war and senior officers of the army on their way to Santiago to participate in celebrations marking the 125th aniversary of Chilean independence. The minister of war brought greetings to us from the president and his colleagues of the Argentine government. We found too that the foreign office had sent a special representative, Doctor Alexander Marshall, to look after us on the thousand mile trip from Bariloche to Buenos Aires. I mention these things to show how the Argentine government extended to us every courtesy-and I mention this to point a moral and to draw attention to this example for Canadian guidance.
The mid-southern part of Argentina through which we travelled from Bariloche is a fairly dry level plain given over partially to sheep raising but after about 18 hours' run we entered the beautiful pampas country and for the full morning before we arrived in Buenos Aires we saw great stretches of the

finest cattle country which reminded me of the plains area in the southwestern part of my own province of Alberta.
The reception at Buenos Aires was warmth itself. A special railway, car had been sent to bring us from Bariloche to Buenos Aires and on arrival we found at the station to meet us, members of the Argentine cabinet and senior government officials together with representatives of the various chambers of commerce, manufacturers' associations and other business organizations, and members of the British embassy. The station was bedecked with Canadian and Argentina flags and our cortege of cars was escorted to our hotel by motorcycle police. As a matter of fact two policemen were detailed to escort us everywhere we went throughout our stay in Buenos Aires and we were guests in every respect of the Argentine government. Trade negotiations commenced immediately and an agreement was reached and signed at Buenos Aires on October 2.
The trade agreement with Argentina is the first direct arrangement concluded between the two countries, and in many respects it is a most important agreement. It places our trade relations with Argentina on a secure basis.
Up till November 15 last, Canada's trade with Argentina had been regulated under the provisions of a treaty of amity,, commerce and navigation signed by Argentina and Great Britain in 1S25, or 42 years before confederation. This treaty placed trade between Argentina and the British empire on a reciprocal most-favoured-nation basis, but there had arisen doubts as to the rights which Canada enjoyed under the treaty. There was uncertainty, for instance, that Canada would be assured of the benefits of the reductions in rates of duty which Argentina was to grant the United States as a result of the trade negotiations which had just been carried on between Argentina and the United States. These were nearing conclusion when the Canadian trade mission arrived in Argentina. There were also uncertainties resulting from Argentina's foreign exchange control system.
As a result of the new trade agreement, the situation as regards foreign exchange control has been clarified. The agreement came into effect provisionally on November 15 and is to come definitely into force thirty days after the exchange of ratifications. It is to remain in force for a period of two years, and thereafter until termination by either government.
As Argentina was already enjoying the advantages of the intermediate tariff of Canada, it was not necessary to pass an order in council to implement the agreement.
The trade agreement contains an article (Article II) dealing with foreign exchange

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control which recognizes the special situation whereby the trade between Argentina and the United Kingdom is regulated under a payments agreement.
Argentina agrees to grant Canada treatment not less favourable than it accords to other countries in matters pertaining to the rates and the allocation of foreign exchange which Argentina makes available for commercial transactions, excluding, however, the special advantages which Argentina extends to imports from countries contiguous to Argentina, and to Peru.
This means that Canada is assured of as favourable treatment in the granting of exchange as that which Argentina may accord to the United States and other countries not excepted under the provisions of Article II.
It may be added that the United States, under a treaty signed with Argentina on October 14 last, also made substantially the same reservations that are provided for under Canada's trade agreement with Argentina.
Under the new agreement, Canadian exporters are assured against discrimination during the life-time of the agreement.
Canada will also enjoy, under the mostfavoured-nation clause, the benefits of certain reductions in duties granted by Argentina to the United States under a treaty between the two countries which was signed at Buenos Aires on October 14 and which was applied provisionally on November 15 last, which by coincidence, is also the date on which our agreement with Argentina also, provisionally, came into force.
The main commodities of interest to Canada and the percentage reductions from the existing net duties in Argentina's customs tariff are shown below:
Reduction
Commodities	Per cent
Canned salmon and canned mackerel...	40
Apples (October 1 to January 31)	 50
Pears (October 1 to December 31)	 50
Sardines, canned, in tomato sauce,
mustard or cottonseed oil	 30
Asbestos linings	 25
Containers for storage batteries	 12-5
Insulating board	 20
Canada's total trade with Argentina during 1932 and 1933, at the bottom of the world economic depression, averaged $4,096,000 yearly. In 1941 the value of the total trade between the two countries amounted to $11,935,856, imports from Argentina being $2,408,000 less than Canadian exports to that country. Statistics for the period 1932 to 1941 are shown in the following table:
Canadian Imports from exports	Argentina
1932	
$2,961,854	$	992,3231933	
2,653,386	1,584,5981934	
4,248,609	3,082,5221935	
3,968,421	3,286,7911936	
3,426,051	10,787,3601937	
7,294,191	6,242,2631938	
4,675,489	2,149,1601939	
4,116,923	4,406,4561940	
6,107,215	6,541,8621941	
7,172,104	4,763,752
(Note.-Imports from Argentina reached s high level in 1936 because of large imports oi maize.)
Canada's main exports to Argentina in recent years have been newsprint, farm implements, seed potatoes, electric apparatus. Other exports include apples, lumber, asbestos, calcium carbide, manufactures of iron and steel, wrapping paper, woodpulp, wallboards, fox skins, paints, dried cod and other fish products.
Canada's chief imports from Argentina are: Hides and skins, flax seed, maize, canned beef, quebracho (tanning extract), raw wool, horse hair, casein and gylcerine for refining.
Under the new trade agreement, Argentina is assured of continuation of most-favourednation treatment, whereby goods imported into Canada from Argentina are subject to the rates under Canada's intermediate tariff, and to the benefit of reductions which may be granted to other countries.
Buenos Aires is a great and beautiful city with a population of nearly 4 million people. It is fully modern in every respect with underground railway systems as well as very efficient bus and street railway transportation. There are magnificent boulevards, parks and squares, splendid modern business blocks, most attractive shopping districts reminding one of Oxford and Bond streets of old London with a number of the same establishments-great manufacturing plants-packing plants-race courses-great clubs and above all a great and most hospitable people.
I can give those of you who have not visited Buenos Aires an idea of the city and its people by briefly referring to some of the items on our official programme there.
There was dinner by the British ambassador, Sir Esmond Ovey, on the night of our arrival and a large reception at the embassy the following evening.
An official luncheon was given by the Argentina Minister of Agriculture at the magnificent Jockey Club, and another official luncheon by the foreign minister, Doctor Ruis Guinazu. There was dinner by Mr. E. C. Groening, manager of the Royal Bank of Canada.
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Visit to La Martona. This is a ranch or Estancia in the Argentine language. It has been in one family for well over fifty years. On the ranch are 24,000 cows, and they are milking 12,000 daily and taking milk from
6,000	outside their property daily. They are marketing their produce in dozens of retail stores in the city.
The reception at the club, The Gimnasia. This is a great club under the presidency of Doctor Aldao. It represents a great life work of the doctor and has a membership of some twenty-two thousand. Supervised sports of all kinds are conducted, both at the downtown club headquarters and at their more extensive establishment in a suburban area.
Luncheon by the British Chamber of Commerce.
Dinner by the American ambassador, the Honourable Norman Armour, at their beautiful and pretentious embassy.
Attendance at the ballet at the Colon Opera House, guests of the President of Argentina. A German opera had been on the programme for that evening, but those in charge had, out .of regard to what they thought our sensibilities might be, staged a special ballet dedicated to the Canadian mission.
Dinner by Doctor Leguizamon at the Circulo de Armas, a most beautiful and exclusive club. This was for Argentinians only. Doctor Leguizamon is the Argentine chairman of the Argentine British railroads and has a son in the Argentine Legation in this city.
We visited:
The Argentine Stock and Grain Exchange, where not only stocks but all bond transactions are handled. We were formally received here and trading stopped for the few minutes' ceremony.
Anglo (Vesty's) Packing Plant: daily capacity 5,000 cattle, 15,000 sheep and lambs, and 1,500 hogs per eight-hour day. The plant covers 65 acres and employs between seven and eight thousand people.
The Alpargatas Factory which we saw has been in one family, the Fraser family, since its commencement by this Scottish immigrant family about sixty or seventy years ago. The Alpargatas is a cheap shoe, widely used in South America by working people and agriculturalists. The daily production of the plant is-Alpargatas shoes 120,000 pair, rubber shoes 18,500 pair, welt shoes 2,000 pair, stitchdowns 4,000 pair, women's 2,000 pair.
At the great river port of Rosario, we were cordially entertained. Here we visited the Yerbe Matte factory. Yerbe Matte resembles

green tea. This industry was taken in hand by the earliest Jesuit missionaries. They started the domestic cultivation of this plant.
We visited a large straw pulp mill. Paper is made from straw, but my interest greatly modified when I was told that the factory secures its straw without payment, from the farmers.
From Buenos Aires we journeyed to Montevideo, the capital of Uruguay, some 135 miles down the Rio de la Plata, on which Buenos Aires, Argentina, and Montevideo, Uruguay, are situated. Here again there was the same great hospitality. Among those welcoming us ' was Doctor Guani, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and an old friend of Right Hon. Senator Dandurand and of Commissioner Roy, Canada's former representative in France.
A commission had been appointed by the Uruguayan government by official proclamation to "maintain conversations" with us. This commission included very senior officials of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Ministry of Agriculture, Department of Commerce, and the Bank of the Republic. As I mentioned earlier, Canada had concluded a most-favourednation trade agreement with Uruguay in 1936. The provisions of this treaty,, however, had not been fully implemented, as certain difficulties had arisen regarding the granting of foreign exchange for the payment of imports of Canadian goods into Uruguay.
The discussions, therefore, had as their objective the removal of the difficulties which existed. A very satisfactory understanding with the government of Uruguay was arrived at, which was embodied in a signed memorandum. The effect of this agreement should be reflected by an increase in our exports to Uruguay, our trade in seed-potatoes and agricultural implements standing to benefit most.
Uruguay is a most progressive republic and Montevideo a most beautiful city of over
800,000	people. Its people are very prodemocratic. We spent four days in all in Uruguay, returning to Buenos Aires before leaving for Brazil.
W7e landed in Brazil at Santos on October 6, the port for the tremendously rich Sao Paulo province, travelling the fifty miles from Santos to Sao Paulo city by a railway which carries trains up from the coast valley by a series of cables, some 2,500 feet in ten miles. The city of Sao Paulo is one of the most rapidly growing cities, I believe, of the western hemisphere. The city has a population of one million and a quarter and is fully modern and well planned. While at Sao Paulo we were entertained by the chamber of commerce and commodity exchange and every opportunity was given to us to learn of their coffee and cotton production. After

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four days at Sao Paulo and vicinity we reached the beautiful city of Rio de Janeiro and were again most hospitably received by members of the cabinet and government and business officials. May I add here that while the Canadian trade mission was in Brazil we were at all times the guests of the government.
Sr. Aranha, Brazilian foreign minister, and Sr. Machado, the minister for labour, industry and commerce, met our early morning train and immediately arranged for trade negotiations which lasted throughout the ten days we were in Rio. A most-favoured-nation trade treaty was signed in that capital on October 17. The trade agreement was applied provisionally as from that date, as it extended the provisions whereby reciprocal most-favourednation treatment between the two countries had been ensured under an exchange of notes effective on June 12, 1937.
Whereas the previous arrangement was subject to termination at any time on thirty days' notice, the new agreement is effective for a period of two years and is continuing subject to cancellation by notice. Canadian exports to Brazil are thus assured against discrimination in respect to tariffs and exchange control.
The Brazilian tariff consists mainly of a minimum tariff and a general tariff under which the rates are approximately one-quarter higher than the minimum tariff. Some rates, lower than the minimum, granted to the United States under an agreement with Brazil in February, 1935, are also extended to imports from countries enjoying most-favoured-nation treatment.
Prior to the war, Brazil was second to Argentina among the Latin-American markets for Canadian products but an increase in Canada's exports to Brazil since 1938 made Brazil our most important Latin-American customer in 1941. Concurrently with an increase in Canadian exports to Brazil since the war began, there has been a substantial rise in Canadian imports from that country, mainly
due to our purchases of Brazilian			cotton.
Canada's	total trade	with Brazil	since 1932
is sh own	in the following table:		
	Total	Total	
exports	imports	Balance ofto Brazil	from Brazil	trade$	%	$1932	1,136,043	754,227	381,8161933	1,897,688	543,090	1,354,5981934	2,606,702	806,548	1,800,1541935	3,500,440	996,339	2,504,1011936	3,627,931	874,613	2,753,3181937	5,002,552	847,805	4,154,7471938	3,521,766	768,915	2,752,8511939	4,406,789	1,111,291	3,295,4981940	5,062,829	6,243,344 -	- 1,180,5151941	8,097,143	19,443,946 -	-11,346,803
Canada's most important exports to Brazil in recent years have included sewing machines, newsprint, lead in pigs, wood pulp, dressed furs, asbestos, malt, manufactures of felt, upper leather, iron pipes and fittings, rubber tires, rubber belting, electrical apparatus, farm implements, machinery, apples and dried fish.
Among the items of lesser importance the following may be mentioned: Whiskey, rubbei goods, textile products, wall-board, hardware, lamps and lanterns, abrasives, fertilizers, mineral pigments, paints and calcium carbide.
Brazil's main exports to Canada include cotton, cotton seed oil, coffee, rice, iron ore, castor oil, and cattle hides. Under the agreement, Brazil enjoys the benefits of the Canadian intermediate tariff and any reductions in rates which may be granted under the tariff to other .countries.
We were honoured in Rio de Janeiro by being entertained at a luncheon by President Vargas. We were also guests of the minister of finance, Dr. de Souza Costa, at a luncheon at the jockey club; of Dr. Aranha, the foreign minister, at the beautiful Itamaraty palace, and at a reception by Dr. Machado in the very palatial offices of the ministry of labour and commerce.
The officials of Brazilian Traction both at Rio and at Sao Paulo arranged that we inspect their huge projects at these points, and at all times during our Brazilian stay the officers of these great Canadian developments did everything to make our visit interesting and profitable. Time does not permit of an extended account of the kindnesses and hospitality extended to the Canadian mission in this entrancingly beautiful and interesting city of Rio de Janeiro and at Therezopolis and Petropolis.
Canada's new minister to Brazil had arrived shortly before us and the result of this was that we participated in the great reception that Brazil extended to Mr. Desy. Brazil has welcomed Mr. Desy with open arms, and Canada is very happily represented in this great country larger in extent than the United States. Our minister to the Argentine and Chile, the Honourable Mr. Justice Turgeon, passed us on his way to these countries while we were leaving Brazil.
We flew on the last leg of our journey from Brazil to Trinidad, some 3,200 miles, stopping at Belem or Para, a large port at one of the mouths of the Amazon river, en route.
Discussions regarding our trade relations with Trinidad and other West Indian islands were informal but extremely valuable and we were able during our visit to meet a number of very influential men who have trading connections all through the West Indies and were able to iron out a lot of

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difficulties and explain actions which had been a source of irritation to many of the importers in the West Indies.
The Latin-American countries are among the few markets which have remained open to us since the outbreak of the war in Europe over two years ago. They constitute markets which we did not cultivate sufficiently before the war.
It is necessary of course that our war effort must come first, that the supply of war materials which we require for our own needs and those of our.allies must be assured before everything else. But there are a number of commodities which we can and should export, particularly when they bring back much-needed United States dollars as in the case of our exports to Latin America
Our trade statistics show that we can, and have been able to, increase Canadian exports to Latin America. In 1938 the value of our aggregate exports to the 20 Latin-American republics totalled 317,739,000. In 1940 these exports had risen to $26,190,000 in value, an increase of approximately 50 per cent. For the first ten months of 1941 the value of our total exports to the Latin-American republics exceeded by about $850,000 our exports during the twelve months of 1940, so that the figures for the twelve months of 1941 will show a considerable increase over 1940.
The three trade agreements signed in the course of the mission's tour in South America, the modus vivendi concluded with Ecuador, the arrangement effected with Uruguay as regards foreign exchange, the goodwill created and the publicity accorded to Canada in these countries and in Peru as a result of the tour constitute, we believe, very modestly, much progress in the right direction. These trade agreements were concluded with a view to improving reciprocal trade relations between Canada and the countries concerned, and the necessity of that trade being reasonably reciprocal must be borne in mind by our importers and exporters and by Canadians generally.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have listened with the utmost interest to the statement the minister has presented to the house. I think he did well to go to South America. I recall that in the session of 1940 I urged that the avenues of trade with the British West Indies, Cuba and the South American countries be explored to their uttermost, having regard of course to the fact that the war was then on and that a very large amount of our commerce with continental Europe had been cut off.

Latin America, to which the minister has referred in great detail, is a very important part of the western hemisphere. While our trade with Latin America in the past has been small, nevertheless $26,000,000 worth of exports represents a substantial amount of money, and I believe that that trade is capable of great expansion. There are, however, difficulties in the way of extending our trade. There is the question of exchange, and there is the question of transportation, which at all times has been difficult due to the fact that we have had little or no direct connection with those countries. My province is particularly interested in this question of transportation because we grow seed potatoes, in which we have been endeavouring to build up a substantial trade with Argentina. That position has been explored. The minister was good enough a year or so ago, at the request of those interested, in which I had some little part, to send a trade commissioner there. He is supposed to be and I think is, especially qualified to explore the market for seed potatoes and, I hope, bring about results. The young gentleman comes from my own constituency. He is an agronomist by profession. Personally I had not thought of a professional agronomist being sent. The appointment was made by the civil service commission, upon a requisition being made by the department, and apparently the qualifications which the department thought were necessary were those which could be filled only by a professional agriculturist. I am not quarrelling with that decision at all. If the gentleman who was appointed is practical, he can do good work, although there was another man in the employment of the government of New Brunswick who had already been in South America and explored the whole position in previous years, and had intimate personal connections there. I thought possibly some arrangement could have been made to send him. But that is merely in passing.
I referred a moment ago to the question of transportation, and I shall have something to say about that later on. The minister himself also referred to the difficulties of transportation. For the most part cargo space for shipment of our goods to South American countries has to be arranged through New York. I do not assume that there is a great deal of difficulty with regard to package freight; but with regard to large shipments, we will say of potatoes, shippers from my province have found extreme difficulty in getting a substantial amount of cargo space on the New York boats, those of the Grace line and boats of other regular lines sailing to those countries.

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That has not been satisfactory, and the result has been that shippers have had to charter ships themselves and arrange for full cargo shipments. With the restrictions on shipping to-day the situation is becoming increasingly difficult.
My colleague from the constituency of Victoria-Carleton (Mr. Hatfield) is personally very much interested in that trade, because he himself is a shipper and knows a great deal more about the whole position than I do. I invite him now to have something to say on this problem of shipping to Latin America, especially Argentina, and to give the house and especially the minister the benefit of his views as to what changes, if any, ought to take place and what can conveniently be done.


Mr. REID:: Is there any direct shipping line from the maritimes?


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is no direct shipping line from the maritimes to South America. I say that subject to some little reservation because the Canadian National Steamships on the outer service did go as far as Demerara and carried freight to Demerara, but that is in British Guiana. There was a side service to Central America in days gone by, but just what the position is now with respect to that I do not know. It was the only direct service of which I am aware. What effect the loss of one of our ships since the war began has had on our power to transport goods down there, I do not know, but I do understand that one of the difficulties of exporting from the maritimes, at all events, has been lack of shipping. That is a question to which I hope the minister will give his attention as the days go by, in order that we may have more direct communication in the matter of export trade than we have had in the past. I commend that suggestion to him.
The minister evidently had a good time in South America. I almost envied him as I heard his narration of the social events which he attended, but then I reflected that perhaps I did not have, shall I say, the capacity of some people for enjoyment. Perhaps I was better off for not being in the party, although I had thought of reproaching the minister for not having asked me to go along with him. But after hearing from him the details of the lavish and, I am sure, genteel entertainment which he and his party enjoyed there, I am almost glad now that he did not invite me, and I hope that he himself did not find the entertainment too exacting.
I should like to corroborate what the minister said about the capacity and the
44561-58^
ability of his deputy minister. I do not want to flatter anyone, but I have an idea that there is no better servant of the crown in the public service than the minister's deputy.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Very good.


James Angus MacKinnon: Hear, hear.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am sure we all appreciate that fact, and I am glad the minister, in the course of his remarks, paid tribute to his deputy. I do so myself. I have done so before, and I reaffirm now my faith not only in his integrity-of course that goes without saying-but in his ability and his immense knowledge of Canada's trade. The fact that he is also bilingual-I was almost going to say multilingual-is another great advantage, and' I am very glad the minister paid the tribute to his deputy which he did.
Missions of this kind, if properly conducted, as I have no doubt this one was, should always produce good results. The interchange of contacts in international trade visits of this nature should be of inestimable value not only to us but to the nationals of the countries visited. We in Canada know altogether too little about Latin America. Canada, of course, is not unknown in certain portions of Latin America. For years the Royal Bank of Canada have had a chain of branches in Latin America; it began twenty-five years or more ago. At Bogota, in the republic of Colombia, is located the supervisor of the Royal bank for that area. He is a gentleman from my own city, whom I know very well; he is a keen Canadian and has done a great deal to advertise Canada. I do not believe that the minister in the course of his travels reached the capital of Colombia, although he referred to visits to one or more of the coastal cities on the Pacific side. I make no complaint of that, because the capital of Colombia is a very difficult city to reach. The only reasonable way is to fly in from the coast. A journey partly by land and1 partly by water is a matter of days; by air it is a matter of hours.
At Caracas, capital of the republic of Venezuela, is located a branch of this great Canadian institution, whose manager is also from my city. I had the pleasure of visiting him in days gone by, and I know he has been an agent of good relations between that country and this.
Although it may take a little time, I should like to mention an incident which occurred there that shows the respect in which Canada and Britain are held in Venezuela. We had
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spent the day in Caracas-this was back in 1929-and we had had a survey of the whole political position and learned something of the situation which subsisted there, and the marked difference between democratic governments here and in that republic. I will go no further than that. But I remarked to Mr. Coburn, who is the agent there, that, having regard to the situation which the students and other elements of the population found themselves in, I thought that some day, when the dictator then in power died, there would be a revolution in the country, and I asked, "Just what would you do with all this American currency and all this gold which you have in this branch?" It was a big branch with a staff of one hundred. We were sitting in his private office, and on the rear wall was a large union jack. I said, "What would you do if the revolution should come?" He said, "I would take that flag and I would drape it over the front door; I would turn the key in the front door and I would go away; and when I came back everything would be all right." He said the people had a great respect for the Canadian business man and for the British business man. I commend that incident of the flag to hon. gentlemen who may be thinking of discarding the union jack as our national flag -the flag which is a protection of Canadian as well as of British interests in Venezuela. I do not intend to make any further observations on that matter.
Another agency there which has made Canada very well known in Brazil is the activity of some of our financial men, especially that relating to the Brazilian Traction company, which, as everybody knows, is controlled in Canada, and which has done a great deal to make the dominion known in the republic of Brazil. The same in a lesser degree is true of Argentina.
I have nothing but praise for the efforts made by the minister and his mission to spread the gospel of good will as well as good trading among the Latin-American republics. Good will is an enormous factor, and the personal touch exemplified in the sending of a cabinet minister and high government officials to the nations of that great sub-continent can have nothing but good results if the matter is properly followed up.
I could not follow the minister in all the intricacies of his explanations respecting the various trade agreements. Some of them are very technical, and unless one had the text in front of him one could not follow with precision the operations of the minister and his party with respect to the agreements with these various countries. But I desire to offer a few comments of a general nature upon our trade relations with South America. They fall natur-

ally under two headings: first, the procurement of essential war supplies from South American countries-which I believe is quite possible; second, the extension of our trade with South America in the post-war period. With regard to the latter, I hope we shall have a forwardlooking policy, because when the war is over we shall find an impoverished Europe which will not be able to take much from us in the way of actual purchases. I think there is no doubt that we shall have to supply Europe with many things in order to rehabilitate its peoples, but we cannot look forward to any great trade in that direction until rehabilitation is accomplished. In the meantime we shall be losing a tremendous amount of foreign trade-trade which has been and, I hope, always will be important to Canada. It is not quite as important as the internal trade, which constitutes ninety per cent of our commercial transactions. But any country which has an exportable surplus must keep constantly in mind its foreign trade; and Canada, in some lines, is in that position.


Mr. MARTIN:: I would almost say that it was our lifeblood.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should
not like to say that-"our lifeblood." It is important, so long as we have an exportable surplus, to the extent that we have an exportable surplus, and in relation to those commodities in which we have an exportable surplus. My hon. friend may have in mind the wheat problem and questions of that kind. Today, of course, our most important, or rather our only outlet across the water is Great Britain.
May I for a moment turn aside to deplore a speech made by a member of the administration during the recent by-election in Quebec East-I refer to my hon. friend the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Michaud), who sits for a New Brunswick constituency-in which he stated that sooner or later we should not have to sell anything to Great Britain. I am not attempting to epitomize precisely what he said, but it is something which had better have been left unsaid, even on the hustings in a by-election. Where would this country be if we did not have some outlet to Great Britain? I am not going to say anything more about that. I had intended to say something about it on a previous occasion, and I refer to it now only in passing.
But to return to what I did want to say: It is an accepted fact that up to the outbreak of war at all events the traditional South American trade had been with Europe rather than with North America. Europe required raw materials which South America could produce and paid for those raw materials by the export of manufactured goods. That

is why you will find entrenched in Chile, the Argentine, Brazil and other South American countries huge commercial concerns dealing in the export and import trade of those countries with Britain, particularly with Germany, and to a lesser degree with Italy in the latter years. Germany was and still is, I think, very strongly entrenched in the commercial life of some of these Latin-American republics. That has been true in recent years. Germany and Italy have developed an extensive export businss chiefly in the heavy-manufacture lines and in a marked degree have cut into British exports of these lines. To-day, of course, that situation is entirely suspended-at least I believe it is suspended1-and the result is that many of these Latin-American countries face very difficult economic circumstances. They are not able to import from and certainly are not able to export to continental Europe, and for that very reason I should think they would welcome the chance to export to Canada if, as and when that can be arranged. They have very large surpluses of raw materials and are unable to secure the required quantities of manufactured goods except from the United States. Of course, our friends in the United States are very keen traders. They have become a great country because of their business acumen and their ability to manufacture and export. The minister will find that there will be the keenest kind of competition with the United States for the Latin-American trade. That is to be expected, and our exporters will, I think, have to accommodate themselves to that situation and endeavour, if they want a part of this trade, to meet the competition that will inevitably arise.
There is this further factor. The United States have been helping financially some of these countries in their economic distress.


James Angus MacKinnon: Substantially.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, substantially. I believe the aggregate amounts are enormous, relatively at all events, and of course that certainly gives them an inside position which it is going to be very difficult for Canada to meet. We simply cannot meet it if that is to be used as a lever for exports to those countries-purchases by the Latin-American countries.
I wonder how many hon. gentlemen have read Mr. John Gunther's book recently published entitled, "Inside Latin America".
I recommend that book to them. They will find it most interesting reading, and most instructive as well. Those who have read it will have been impressed by the importance
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placed on trade relationships with the Latin-American countries. Mr. Gunther gives a list of fourteen strategic war materials, indispensable to the conduct of the war, which are not produced in the United States. It may be of interest to list these commodities, only two of which, as I understand, are produced in Canada:
Antimony, chromium, coconut shell char (for gas masks), ferrograde manganese, manila fibre, mercury, mica, nickel, quartz crystal, quinine, rubber, silk, tin, tungsten.
Mr. Gunther further states that Latin. America has surpluses in several of these commodities, and that, with proper development, they could produce them all except silk. Antimony, he states, could be furnished by Mexico and Peru; manganese by Brazil and Cuba; mercury by Mexico; quartz crystal by Brazil; chromium by Cuba; mica by Peru and Chile; tin and tungsten by Bolivia. Coconut shell char could be produced; manila fibre is now being made experimentally in Costa Rica.
I commend that list to the minister; he will read it in Hansard. It may be that some arrangements can be made to increase our imports of these items. He gave a list himself, but I commend this one to -him as having been taken from a source which, I believe, is well informed. It may be of interest to observe that Brazil was once the world's largest producer of rubber, and rubber is, at the moment, a very important element. Indeed, up to fifty or sixty years ago Brazil was, I am informed, the only rubber producing country in the world. It may be that it will become once more a great producer, having regard to the fact that the East Indies plantations are now destroyed or being destroyed. To-day, while rubber trees grow wild over immense areas, I am afraid that production in Brazil has sunk to a low ebb. That, I am told, is because of the competition of the East Indies. With that competition eliminated, it may be possible to revive that production and that export trade. It is said that the President of Brazil is profoundly interested in the resuscitation of the rubber industry and wants to see it developed. There will have to be assistance from the United States and Canada, and with appropriate assistance it might be possible, through such development, to offset any future rubber shortage resulting from the fall of Malaya I offer that, as a constructive suggestion tc the minister and the officials of his depart* ment, for what it is worth.
I direct attention to the productive capacity of the Latin-American countries in these strategic war materials for the reason that il

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may be possible to secure from Latin America substitutes for those important raw materials which we can no longer import from the far east. In the meantime one should not forget as well that in Latin America there are other materials produced in which shortages may occur, such as wool, copper and petroleum, and then, of course, Argentina is and has for many years been a great source of supply for the best beef hides in the world, Alberta notwithstanding. The best beef hides come, I am told, from the Argentine.


Thomas Reid: There is neither barbed wire nor the warble-fly there.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not pretend to give the reason, but that is what tanners and importers have told me. There was a time when these hides were imported direct into Fredericton and turned into sole leather, but like many other maritime industries it has been absorbed by central Canada. We buy our sole leather pretty largely from Ontario, and that is a pity, because we should be able to manufacture it ourselves, though they tell me that they cannot profitably compete because consumption is so low. However, that is just a matter in passing. I commend these suggestions to the minister; and I hope the officials of the government, if they do me the honour of reading them, will explore- perhaps in consultation with officials of the United States government-the possibility of increasing the productive capacity of South American countries in these essential war supplies.	_	,
I wish to turn now to a brief consideration of the extension of our trade with South America both now and in the post-war period. As I mentioned earlier, the former trade relations of South America were largely with Europe. These have now ceased. I believe that in the post-war period) Canada should make a most aggressive attempt to sell manufactured goods as well as raw materials and the products of agriculture, particularly flour, seed potatoes and other things we can produce in quantities for export. No better seed potatoes are grown anywhere in this northern hemisphere than those produced in Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick. Our farmers are restricted in a degree in their exports to the United States, and they have to meet the competition of the seed potatoes produced in Aroostook county, which, as everyone knows, is a very large producer. But quality counts, and our producers have the quality; there is no doubt about that. The cleanest seed potato fields on this continent are found first, I think, in Prince Edward Island, and second in New Brunswick. The hon. member for Yictoria-Carleton (Mr. Hatfield) shakes his head. I suppose he would 
reverse the order, and perhaps I should place them at least on an equal plane. But the question of plant disease is important in that regard, and of course we must send out the very best quality that can be obtained. There is a very large market for seed potatoes in South America if the proper transportation and exchange facilities can be arranged.
I should like to say to the Minister that within the last few weeks the whole thing has been hampered by the controls that now exist. Export licences and all that sort of thing have a hampering effect on that trade, which is a very desirable trade indeed. The minister said it was paid for in United States dollars, which is correct. That is important from another standpoint; and I hope that officialdom-I am not using that word in any derogatory sense at all-will make it as easy as possible to send these things to South America. I recommend to the minister that his department give some attention to this question of cramping regulations and restrictions on a trade that ought to be as free as it is possible to make it, for the good not only of our producers but of trade relationships generally between this country and South America. I am not going to particularize further.
Prior to the war, all the Latin-American countries imported large quantities of manufactured goods from Europe. That resulted more or less from very intelligent trade direction, especially on the part of Germany. I believe it should be possible for us, pursuing the good neighbour policy, to gain at least, a portion of this market for Canadian manufacturers in the post-war period. There is the difficulty of United States competition, of course. If we could accomplish this, together with the export of natural products, we would be taking a long step toward providing for the readjustment of war industries to a peace-time basis, thereby providing employment for our workmen. I am speaking now of the post-war period. These are the things to which we ought to be looking forward, trying to get as many new markets as we can to take up the slack which will be created when we change back from a war-time activity to a peace-time economy. We cannot afford to forget for a moment that this transition is coming. There need not be a depression if officialdom and business will get together and plan ahead, and I recommend constant study in that regard.	*
I have referred already to the difficulties in connection with trading with South America resulting from the fact that we have no direct trade routes. Has the minister given any attention or thought to this point? It is not possible at the moment to establish direct trade routes; I am quite sure the shipping is

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not available. Any shipping that we are building will have to go to replace the shipping being lost in the Atlantic, and for transatlantic trade; but some of that shipping might be diverted to the South American trade. Certainly some of the cargo ships that Canada is building can be diverted to the South American trade after the war is over, and I commend that suggestion to the minister. Perhaps as the result of our merchant shipping programme and our great naval expansion we may become once more in the post-war period what we were a generation or more ago, a great mercantile marine nation. I am sure that is what the people of the maritime provinces would like to see happen. Then we may be able to establish for ourselves direct shipping routes to all the important countries in the world, including those of South America.
Unless in future we are able to establish direct trade routes I fear that it will not be possible to extend our trade with the Latin-American countries in the manner we would all like, particularly because of the competition with the United States. These particular trade agreements to which the minister has alluded, especially the three that are before us, the result of the visit to South America by the Minister of Trade and Commerce and his party last autumn, constitute a step in the right direction. By securing for ourselves most-favoured-nation treatment in the markets of Argentina, Brazil and Chile, subject to certain small limitations, as I understood from the minister's statement, I am hopeful that at last an initial step has been taken to extend our trade with these countries.
I should like to have some enlightenment from the minister on one particular matter in connection with the most-favoured-nation treatment. I note that the advantages accorded to Canada do not carry with them the advantages which in one instance Chile accords to Argentina, Bolivia and Peru, and which in another instance Argentina accords, to Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay, and again which Brazil accords to contiguous countries. The minister may have covered that point fully; I was not able to follow him. I think he did refer to these matters, but perhaps at a later stage he would be good enough to state succinctly just what the effect of these exceptions from most-favoured-nation treatment will be upon our trade.
I would ask the minister, also, to tell us in what particular lines it is anticipated that our trade with the three countries will be extended as a result of these agreements. In what particular lines does the according of the mostfavoured-nation treatment give to Canadian products favourable tariff status, so that
increased exports are likely to result? I believe he might also give us a statement as to what tariff barriers are to be surmounted.
In the agreements with Argentina and Brazil I note that certain articles provide that prohibition or restriction may be imposed for the protection of plants and animals, and that measures for protection against disease, degeneration or extinction, as well as measures taken against harmful seeds, plants or animals are not to be affected. Presumably this provision is directed against certain Canadian commodities which might be exported to these countries. I should like to have that position elucidated.
I should hope that these countries will not use these provisions to declare prohibitions. We have a classic illustration of that in connection with the export of potatoes from Canada to Great Britain. They are adamant against importing any of our potatoes in a commercial way because of the presence in Canada, they allege, of the Colorado beetle. Of course that is a terrible pest, and costs the farmers of this country vast sums of money each year. Not only do they lose a large sum of money, but the presence of the beetle causes a great deal of labour.
I am afraid, however, that agricultural communities in the old country have used the beetle as-I shall not say a pretext, but as a means of excluding our potatoes from Great Britain. I have never thought that that was cricket.
I have very little more to say to the minister. I was interested, however, to learn that he spent some time in Chile. I suppose it was not within the ambit of his mission to inquire what Chile was going to do about the service of her external debt. There are many Canadian nationals who bought Chile bonds in days gone by, and who would like to have some interest on those bonds.


Thomas Reid: The same as German marks.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Probably so. I am not in that class, but I have some Chile bonds. Perhaps I should not have said that; I shall add that I have not many of them. The fact is, however, that large quantities of these bonds are held in Canada, and it will be most reassuring and a mark of the best of bona fides if those countries were to resume payments on their foreign obligations.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I have neither the qualifications nor the background of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) or the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) to take part in this debate. I have, however, given some attention to these matters for a number of
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years, and I accept the invitation of the leader of the opposition to offer some comment.
When the minister began his mission in 1940, as he related to the house he took ill, and there was considerable criticism in various parts of the country to the effect that the minister's illness ought not to have precluded the progress of the mission. I believe it should be said here-and I suggest anyone who knows Latin America will agree-that to have sent anyone other than a minister, and particularly the minister of this department, as head of the delegation, would have been a great mistake.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I agree.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The minister has paid
appropriate tributes to certain officials in his department. I should like to pay my tribute to a friend of mine who did considerable work, not under governmental but under private auspices. I refer to Mr. Ronald McEaehren of the Financial Post in Toronto, a paper with which I cannot always say I am in full accord. I feel, however, that special reference should be made to Mr. McEachren's work. He went to the various Latin-American countries, and did a great deal af advance work of his own which has proved to be of incalculable value. That fact is apparent to anyone who reads business journals, and particularly those in the South American countries.
The discussion thus far has been largely confined to the economic aspect of the problem which, I venture to suggest to the minister, is by no means the important one. To illustrate my meaning in that connection I purpose bringing out into relief, but with a different emphasis and consideration in mind, some of the figures the minister and the leader of the opposition have discussed.
The minister's figures dealt essentially with six countries. There are at least ten countries which, I suggest, should be characterized as being among the most important ones, and whose trade figures must be related, if this discussion is to receive the complete coverage it deserves. The two important countries, per se and in respect of our relations with them are, first Brazil, and then Argentina.
In 1939 Brazil imported from Canada goods to the value of about $4,406,789. That importation made Brazil in that year our chief Latin-American customer. Argentina was next with an importation of about $4,116,923. In 1940-and I am taking these three years because I believe they tell a very interesting story-Argentina took first position, with purchases from Canada amounting to some $6,000,215. representing a 40 per cent increase

over the previous year, made up chiefly of imports of newsprint. In the same year Brazil increased her imports to a sum of $5,062,000. In 1941 Brazil continued to increase her imports. In that year they reached a total value of about $8,097,143, while those of Argentina fell back into second position, with a total importation from us of about $7,172,104.
Our imports during these three years from the two countries named are significant. In 1939 we purchased goods to the value of $1,111,291 from Brazil, and from Argentina $4,406,456. In 1940 we bought from Argentina $8,541,S62, and from Brazil about $6,243,342, a slightly smaller amount.
In 1941 we bought from Argentina goods valued at $4,763,752, and from Brazil we almost. doubled our imports. In that year we imported a value of $19,443,946.
These figures yield but one conclusion-and I do not say this by way of any criticism of our trade commissioners-but the fact remains that two years of war have brought more for us by way of increased trade from Latin America to us, and from us to Latin America, than did fifteen years of good, energetic and efficient work by our trade commissioners. I do not want to criticize what the minister has done because his work in this particular has been of tremendous advantage to our country, particularly in respect of the political relations of this part of North America with Latin America, but the fact is that the trade figures are not impressive. For instance, in 1939 our exports to South America were only 1-8 per cent of our total exports, and our imports from South America in the same year were but 2-8 per cent of our total imports. When you compare that with our trade with all of North America, excluding the United States, where our exports amounted to 2-9 per cent of our total exports and our imports to 2-3 per cent of our total imports, you will realize that trade between Canada and the United States is more important to the United States than the whole Latin-American trade carried on by that country. There are reasons for these relatively unimportant trade balances, reasons which in former days parliament has not frankly considered.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I
suggest one reason? It has always been an astonishing thing to me that our trade commissioners are not and never have been what I heard one Minister of Trade and Commerce indignantly deny that they were, commercial travellers.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The leader of the opposition, having been Minister of Trade and Commerce,

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is more expert in that particular than I am. I was glad to hear his speech to-day, particularly bearing in mind that he spoke on behalf of the Conservative party. I know something about Latin America. I well remember a speech delivered in this house by the former able member for St. Lawrence-St. George. That gentleman had had considerable experience with Latin Americans and he characterized them as people who were hardly civilized, as people with whom we should not try to cultivate any relations. That has been the impression which many Canadians, generally and officially, have had about Latin America, and perhaps the Latin Americans have had somewhat the same impression about us. The time has come, with the world in its present dire straits, w'hen we can no longer take that view of these other twenty-one countries who share our American continental interest.
I would not for a moment suggest that we cannot find increasing opportunities for trade with Latin America, but I do believe that we are overemphasizing and have overemphasized the importance of our trade in the past and the possibilities of our trade in the future, for various reasons, some of which were set out by the leader of the opposition. It is possible that we may increase Canada's imports of linseed, fruits, hides and wool from Latin America, and we may sell them more lumber, newsprint, machinery, textiles, fish and perhaps some wheat to Peru. But the fact is, as the leader of the opposition has mentioned, we must compete in the Latin-American countries with the United States with its lower costs because of mass production and its added advantage because of having been in these markets long before we thought of getting into them. There have also been huge extensions of credits by the United States to Latin America. Then there is the further fact that our economy is competitive with Latin-American countries, rather than complementary. Some of the things that are basic in their national income are basic in ours, and this presents additional difficulties.
As far as tropical products are concerned, a large part of our supplies come to us under preferential agreements from the British West Indies and British Guiana. Even though a movement has been set on foot in the course of the last few days, particularly in Washington, for the general lowering of tariff barriers, I venture to suggest by way of qualification of what the leader of the opposition has said that in the post-war period we shall find it to our essential interest to recover established channels of exchange with Europe; not that we should not try to increase our trade opportunities in Latin America, but because we are an exporting nation, because thirty per cent of our income is based upon what we sell to other nations of the world. Because of our competitive position with the United States we should not forget our normal channels of exchange.
It is true, and I should have said this earlier, that the future may have great opportunities for this country in the Caribbean and in South America, particularly as a result of recent capital expansion on the part of the United States. The anticipated increases in the nutritional standards of many Latin-American countries, together with the consequential increase in the standards of living, may conceivably change the market potentialities for Canada in Latin America. But I think it is safe to say that the strictest analysis of our trade possibilities by those who are specialists in these matters indicates the impossibility of our ever getting into the position of hemispheric self-sufficiency in the economic sense.
I said a moment ago that one of the reasons for our relatively unimportant trade increases in Latin America was our lack of appreciation of Latin America itself. As the leader of the opposition has said, one of our most important contacts with Latin America is the mining, power and traction enterprises which are financed by Canadian capital in Mexico, Brazil, Peru and Colombia. Yet the most serious criticisms of Latin Americans and their ways have come from Canadians who draw dividends from these companies.
I do not wish to emphasize the economic aspects so much, although they are important, as to suggest that we should give attention to the penetration of nazi influence into almost every country of Latin America. This penetration has been by way of subventions to industry and subsidies to air companies, and a situation was created which caused the greatest alarm on the part of the United States and Great Britain. One might well ask where we who are fighting Germany to-day would be were it not for the good-neighbour policy of the United States and Latin America, to which policy we as a nation have made very little contribution. Consequently in analysing our opportunities in this respect we must bear in mind not only our economic position but particularly our political opportunities with Latin America. I do not think I am expressing far-fetched views or stretching the bounds of relevancy when I suggest that the conclusions reached at Ogdensburg by the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Canada (Mr. Mackenzie King) can be considered to
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be related to this whole problem; for the report given out jointly by the President of the United States and our Prime Minister on the Ogdensubrg agreement included this phraseology, that the permanent board was to: -commence immediate studies relating to sea, land and air problems including personnel and material, and to consider in a broad sense the defence of the north half of the western hemisphere.
The north half of the western hemisphere may include the south side of the Panama canal or it may merely embrace the north side, but I do submit that this important statement made on behalf of our two countries has a definite relation to the problem under discussion. The area covered by the understandings or conclusions reached at Ogdensburg includes the north American Republics of Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama; the republics and colonies in the Caribbean, and Colombia, Venezuela, the Guianas and parts of Brazil and Ecuador in South America. Thus it includes the whole of the greater Panama canal zone, which according to the very text referred to by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson), namely, Mr. Gunther's work, would be that part of America where the nazis would be more likely than not to exercise mischief.
Our interest in the defence of the canal is not less than that of the United States, although we traditionally seem to regard it as out of our sphere; for the canal is the shortest ocean route between our eastern and western provinces. The canal also affords the quickest means of ocean communication from our western ports to the European market, upon which we are more dependent than even the United States.
I am not suggesting or trying to read into these treaties or into the Ogdensburg conversations something that was not contemplated, but it may be that we are unconsciously, and I think properly, drifting into an orbit where there are at stake economic interests for this country, and more particularly that there lies an opportunity of recognizing that in Latin America exists the only contemporary collectivity of nations outside of the British commonwealth whereby there can be some guarantee of peaceful relations between states. There has been great difficulty in the past in discussing this subject in the house. Closer relations with Latin America have always been construed by many as an attempt to weaken the ties we have with the United Kingdom and the British empire, just as attempts to bring about closer relationship between Canada and the United States have often been similarly construed. Surely the fact that to-day twenty-one of the South American and Central American republics have recently severed connections

with the axis powers, in spite of nazi influence in those countries during the past six years, indicates that it is up to us, not only unconsciously but consciously, to go about to identify our position in Latin America-not thereby weakening our relationships with Great Britain or the British commonwealth, but just as our friendship with the United States has brought Britain and the United States closer together, we might as a result of our more active participation in the whole matter of hemispheric defence, viewed economically and politically, bring Britain, the United States and ourselves and the Latin-American countries closer and closer together in respect of the period of postwar reconstruction.
Why should this not be done? While there is some denial in pan-American countries of the democratic process and of the principle of due process of law, there is nevertheless a general sympathy with the democratic method. In the whole system of collective organization as we have it in the pan-American system there is a recognition of racial equality, an acknowledgment of the desirability of preserving the democratic processes. We find there in almost every national instance a respect for religious beliefs. Is there not there an indication such as we have had recently at Rio de Janeiro that there can be cooperation, and effective cooperation, between one nation and another? Do these nations not have respect for treaties?
It seems to me therefore, Mr. Speaker, that we have every bond with these peoples. We want not only to increase our trade with them but to go along generally with them and, as the leader of the opposition said, build a stronger world politically [DOT] in the interests of civilization and decency. To the extent that these treaties are a step in that direction, I compliment the minister and the government upon their efforts. I am sure that the house, if given the opportunity, would want this discussion to go down as indicating to the people in what I might call the unknown countries south of the Rio Grande that we regard them to be civilized men and women and members of nations with whom we would like to enjoy the most friendly relations, and that we propose in the future to perpetuate our economic and political relations with them to our mutual advantage.


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, I have enjoyed greatly the speeches which have been delivered thus far. I feel that it is in order to congratulate the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) and his party on what I believe was a fine piece of work. Inasmuch as the minister himself accorded to the Prime Minis-

Trade Agreements
tor (Mr. Mackenzie King) a good deal of the credit in this connection, I should like to pass along a similar tribute to him too.
I enjoyed the contribution of the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) and the contribution of the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin), who always speaks in this chamber with moderation and with evidence of scholarship and good judgment.
With respect to the measures now before us,
I believe that they deserve our hearty approval. It seems to me that judged from almost every point of view, these agreements are highly commendable. It is true that we need particularly at this time good-will in the hearts of as many peoples as possible, and it surely does seem difficult to conceive why good-will should not be engendered first in the hearts of our neighbours, and our nearest neighbours. The Latin-American people are surely our neighbours.
It is well, I think, that all the goods listed as being contemplated for exchange between Canada and the South American countries named are goods, first of all, which we need from them, and second, goods which do not compete with our own.	I consider it an
unwise tendency in any state to endeavour to leave its own industries unprotected, to throw them open to competition with goods coming from abroad. It therefore is an important matter that these goods do not, as it appears, compete with Canadian goods.
Now, the goods which we are to export are goods which we can spare. I believe that for many years we have been neglectful of our own people. The first duty of Canada with respect to her production is to see to it that her own people have their needs supplied. Many times in the past we have thought first of all of the goods which we could sell abroad, not bothering much about the people at home-very much as our fathers on the farms used to sell the marketable eggs and keep the poor ones for the family to eat. That was good management in those trying times, but I am not sure that it is good management nationally.
Another thing which appeals to me in connection with this treaty is that very few other nations wish to export the particular goods which we propose to export. I believe that long before this parliament finishes we shall be engaged in earnest discussions of the causes of war. It ought to be borne in on every hon. member that one of the greatest causes of war is the attempt on the part of one nation to force its goods into markets which it does not need in order to live, thereby excluding from those markets similar goods from other nations that need to sell in
those markets to live. No offence is committed in this treaty in relation to that important matter. Therefore we can say that Canada, in enjoying these treaties, will not be excluding others from needed markets, will not be depriving others of enjoyment.
Another aspect of these agreements which commends itself to members of my group is the tendency to give favoured nation treatment in so far as that means a lowering of tariffs. It may be difficult for people who think along lines which Conservatives habitually follow to conceive of lowering tariffs and at the same time protecting home industry. It must be understood-it must come to be understood-that there are ways of protecting the home industry other than the raising of a tariff barrier, which increases the price to everyone in the country. It is completely possible to protect our own industry by special favours conferred upon our industry. For example, by using the national credit of a country it is completely possible- has been proved so in the world time and again during the last ten years-to lower the costs of production, to decrease the costs of freight, and to discount the price of the commodity as it comes to the consumer. If such a series of devices be used within the state it is completely possible to lower the tariff and still protect home industries. Since that is so I commend this tendency toward lower tariffs.
I believe I have said all that at this time we feel disposed to say. We commend the treaties.


Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: These treaties have had a sufficiently long discussion this afternoon and little more needs to be said. I rise simply to say that we of this group are in favour of every treaty and every move that can be made to bring about better relations, both commercial and social, across the world.
I should like to emphasize one point. In our relationships with our South American neighbours the time has come when we ought to join with them in the pan-American conference. I am British-born and therefore I have naturally a great regard and love for the old land. But I can see no reason in the world why this country should not realize its geographical, economic and commercial position and enter into the closest relationships possible with our neighbours across the line, and with our neighbours, rather more remote, in South America. It would be good for the world, for Britain, for Canada, for all of us; and I hope that as these trading relationships are promoted, as these treaties go into effect, the government will fill that vacant seat at
Labour Conditions

the pan-American conference and assist our good neighbour to the south in bringing about still better relationships between the Anglo-Saxon and Latin-American peoples.
After all that has been said in praise of the treaties, nothing much remains for me to say. We approve them. We hope they are a forerunner of future trade relationships in ever-widening fields; and we give the adoption of these treaties our whole-hearted support.
On motion of Mr. Stirling the debate was adj ourned.



FARM CREDIT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Horne Blackmore: Has the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Trade and Commerce or the government made any provision for seeing to it that the farmers of Canada are granted the credit they need for their spring farming operations?


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: The hon. member was kind enough to send me a copy of the question just before the house convened this afternoon, and I passed it on to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), who I thought would properly answer it. I can only say what was said at the time we discussed it, that the only provision made by the federal government to provide credit for the farmers is through the farm loan board. No other provision is made.


John Horne Blackmore: What I had in mind was this. Has the government made any representations to the banks urging them to be a little more generous in granting credit to farmers in view of the fact that we need production just now?


James Garfield Gardiner: Some representations were made by the Department of Agriculture, on behalf of the farmers of Alberta, to the banks in connection with the purchase of feed for the finishing of hogs, and I understood the banks did make that provision at that time.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: During the present week a brutal attack was made upon certain trade union organizers and on certain trade union premises at Sudbury, Ontario. The question was raised in this [Mr. Coldwell.l
house a few days ago. This incident has been completely suppressed so far as the press of Canada is concerned, and I should like to know if the government will investigate to ascertain the reason for that suppression.


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: It strikes me that it was suppressed at the instance of the parties concerned. There was no suppression on the part of this government. No knowledge has come to the government of anything that has happened at Sudbury, and it does seem to me that with regard to any question of this kind raised in the house, when people wire to private members they should in all fairness wire to the government as well. Let me say frankly and honestly that we have no knowledge whatever of this matter from any source except the telegram read by the hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen).


Angus MacInnis: I think the minister misunderstood me. I am not finding fault with the government. I am asking if this incident was suppressed by the censor, or is there some other reason for its suppression. The Prime Minister will understand the seriousness of such a thing.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should be greatly surprised if it was suppressed in any way by the censor. I will look into the matter, but I see no reason why the censor would suppress it, and, as I have said, I should be surprised if it had been suppressed.


Angus MacInnis: It has been suppressed.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Some of the papers never pay any attention to some things I do, and the censor has nothing to do with it.


Mr. SLAGHT:: May I say a word of information for my hon. friend's benefit? I am advised that those who are alleged to have been mistreated have refrained from laying any charges whatever before any authorities ready at hand. There is a suggestion that the whole matter was a show.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Miller Bell: I wish to call the attention of the government to an advertisement appearing in to-day's Toronto Saturday Night entitled "Let's quit kidding ourselves about our big war effort".
I refer particularly to the last paragraph:
The fault is not all industry's, of course. There are fat-headed bottlenecks in political

Japanese Nationals
ranks at Ottawa to be reckoned with. But even those barnacles on the nation's war effort can't stop us if we won't let them. Fortunately, we have in the Department of Munitions and Supply, men recruited from industry-men who know production. Let us give those men all the help and support we can. Don't wait for leadership. Provide it!


Richard Burpee Hanson: By whom is that signed?


Thomas Miller Bell: "Manufacturing and
Industrial Engineering", published by Consolidated Press Limited. I wish to ask this question of the government. In what respects has political interference militated against industrialists who are in charge of our war effort? The only real interference I know of was at the beginning of the war when these gentlemen refused to accept contracts from the government on a limitation of five per cent profit. It is about time that these people should understand that, so far as this house is concerned at least, we are giving them all the money and support that we are asked to give.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not think the hon. member expects me to answer him.


JAPANESE NATIONALS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I thought I ought to bring at once to the attention of the house a decision which the government made to-day with reference to the situation in British Columbia and the evacuation of persons of Japanese origin in that province.
All hon. members, I am sure, realize what an enormous undertaking the moving of large numbers of persons from their homes to other parts of the country really is, and how many are the considerations of which account must be taken in a transaction of great magnitude, particularly where it has to be carried out expeditiously. We have felt that it would be helpful in every way to the province of British Columbia, in meeting the situation, if we were to associate with the government's effort prominent citizens of the province itself so that they might bring their combined knowledge of affairs in the province to bear on the carrying out of the various projects which it will be necessary to undertake in evacuating this large number of people. The government therefore has decided to appoint what will be designated the British Columbia security commission. The present intention is to have three members, all of whom will
be persons outstanding in the province. The government has asked Mr. Austin Taylor if he would act as chairman of the commission and he has expressed his willingness to accept the position. The commission will be for the purpose of directing and supervising the evacuation of persons of Japanese origin from protected areas to the particular localities to which they will be sent. The commission will have to do with the transportation, placement, accommodation and so on of the different persons who are to be evacuated. The government itself will continue to do all that it is doing and had planned to do, but the work will be carried out in association with, and more particularly under the direction of the commission. Every agency of government that can be of service to that >ody will be asked to assist in helping to perform this large undertaking in a manner that will serve to occasion the least irritation among those who are being transferred, and in a manner which will help to give the citizens of British Columbia the most in the way of essential security. All that can be done by government departments will be carried out through that agency.
I thought it advisable to make this statement at once in order that the citizens of British Columbia may know of the government's purpose in the matter. The order in council appointing the commission has not yet been passed, but in all probability will be passed to-morrow.


Howard Charles Green: In that connection may I ask whether this security commission will have any power to settle evacuees outside the province, or is it the intention that they shall simply be moved from one part of the province to another? There is also another question. In this evening's Ottawa newspapers there is a news dispatch to the effect that there has been an amendment made to the defence of Canada regulations providing that the Japanese may not possess motor vehicles and other articles. Has that order been passed within the last day or two and, if so, could we have the details?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I was going on to tell the house that my colleague the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) has a copy of the recent order just referred to, and I believe he intends to table it before adjournment. I have no doubt that the minister will also wish to reply to my hon. friend's question. As to the scope of the powers of the commission, the commission will not be restricted in the matter of the localities to which members of the Japanese population are to be moved. The powers of the com-
Japanese Nationals

mission, will be broad, and the cooperation of the government will be as extensive as government cooperation can be made.


Howard Charles Green: The powers will extend beyond the boundaries of the province?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Mr. HANSON (York-SunbuTy):: This is
rather an important announcement. As I understand the Prime Minister's statement, the commission is set up with full plenary powers, both administrative and executive, and, I suppose, responsible to the government.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is certainly a new departure. I understood this matter was going to be dealt with under the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), who spoke the other day as though he were taking complete charge of it. This is a complete change of policy.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The Minister of Labour will be the minister responsible.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But this commission will have full plenary powers, both in administration and in an executive capacity, under the terms of the order in council which is passed, I assume, under the War Measures Act.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should not like to specify at this moment in exact terms either the powers of the commission or the extent^ of the government's administration of the phases of the work which will have to be carried out. My hon. friend will realize that an order in council making provision for a body of this kind will have to be prepared with great care; and until it is prepared I prefer not to say more than I have said about the scope or purpose of the commission's work. I have thought it advisable, however, to make known immediately that the government has this step in contemplation.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: In view of the authority given this commission or advisory board-


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is not an advisory board, according to the statement.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is not an advisory board.


George Alexander Cruickshank: All right; this committee or commission is to have rather wide powers. I understand the chairman is to be Mr. Austin Taylor, for whose appointment I commend the Prime Minister. Apparently, from what the Prime Minister has said, the advice of this committee is to have a great

deal to do with what action is taken in connection with the Japanese; and as a British Columbia member vitally interested in the matter I am particularly interested in knowing who will make up the remainder of the committee.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot give my hon. friend the names at the moment, because I am not in a position to do so. Mr. Taylor has been advised to confer with the government of British Columbia and will of course have further conference with our own government with respect to the selection of the further personnel of the commission. Beyond that I cannot say.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I thank the Prime Minister for the information that Mr. Taylor has been requested to confer with the government of British Columbia as to the personnel of the committee. In all seriousness might I ask the government to suggest to Mr. Taylor that he also consult with the elected federal members from that province.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Naturally the government here has to take the responsibility for the entire personnel of the commission.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Responsibility for the whole thing.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Certainly; but I want to make clear to my hon. friend that in this matter the government is most anxious to enlist the cooperation of every agency in meeting the situation that has arisen on the coast, and in meeting any other situations which may arise, and we would wish particularly to work in complete cooperation with the government of British Columbia, as well as with the citizens of the province in so far as their cooperation can be helpfully secured.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: As I understand it, the
powers of the commission have not yet been defined conclusively; the matter is still in the making. The selection of Mr. Austin Taylor is a most happy one, and the appointment of this commission, in this most extraordinary situation which has ever developed in our country, is an excellent move. But in all deference may I suggest that the powers of the commission should not override any of the powers contained in the defence of Canada regulations.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They will not.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: They can walk along hand in hand, but I suggest that there might foe an individual case, or ten individual cases, in which it would be desirable to act more drastically than the commission might see fit to act, and that our defence of Canada

Japanese Nationals
regulations should not be interfered with in any way by the powers given to the commission.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is absolutely certain.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think they could exercise any powers under the defence of Canada regulations. I do not think you could delegate such powers to a commission.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Under the War Measures Act you might.
Hon. L. S. St. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, the defence of Canada regulations were amended to empower the Minister of Justice to make certain orders with respect to all persons ordinarily resident in a protected area. That order in council was tabled here on Wednesday of this week. There has been an amendment to the defence of Canada regulations to authorize the enforcement of such orders as may be made by the Minister of Justice, not only by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police but by any police officer, provincial or municipal, in the area affected. I should like to table a copy of that order and to suggest that perhaps it might be printed, as were the others, in the Votes and Proceedings.
Following that, there was made by the Minister of Justice an order dated February 26, 1942, which I also table and suggest that it be included in the Votes and Proceedings.


Richard Burpee Hanson: To what does that relate?


Mr.   S@: That is the order dealing first of all with the curfew imposed upon all persons of Japanese origin; an order that all persons of Japanese origin give up all motor vehicles, cameras, radio transmission or receiving sets, firearms, ammunition and so forth; that they be required forthwith to deliver up these articles to the nearest justice of the peace or peace officer, and that he be required to give a receipt for the article delivered to him and immediately notify the Royal Canadian Mounted Police of the receipt of such article by him. The order also provides that every person of the Japanese race shall leave a protected area forthwith. That is completed by the terms of the regulation itself, which provide that any person in any protected area reasonably believed by any peace officer or by any person acting on behalf of his majesty to be contravening the regulation may, without prejudice to other proceedings, be removed from the protected area or detained therein by any peace officer or person acting on behalf of his majesty as aforesaid. Therefore the order made by the Minister of Justice, and the
regulations, provide that from now on it is an offence against the regulation for any person of Japanese origin to be outside his premises between dusk and dawn. It is an offence for him to retain possession of a motor car, explosives, or one of the other objects enumerated. It is an offence for him to be within a protected area, and for any such offence he may be removed from the area, or detained by any peace officer. Instructions were immediately given for carrying out these provisions, through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and in cooperation with provincial and municipal police in British Columbia.
The instructions provide, of course, that with respect to the removal of persons of Japanese origin there will have to be priorities. They cannot all be moved at the same moment, and for that purpose instructions are to be taken from the chiefs of the army, navy and air services, as to which are the most urgent cases. Males of sixteen years and upward will be and are being dealt with just as quickly as provision can be made to house them.
The hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) has been kind enough to call my attention to what was regarded as some conflict respecting the orders of February 24, as reported in Votes and Proceedings. I think the hon. member will agree, upon looking at them, that there is no real conflict. The one order which is generally applicable to the whole of Canada prevents the acquisition of land or crops by a person of Japanese origin. That contains provision that it does not apply to the taking by lease of buildings for a period of not more than one year.
It was believed that when these people had to leave protected areas it might be possible for them to take short-term leases of buildings for their own accommodation, pending some other arrangement. It is now represented that there may be areas outside the protected areas where they should not be allowed even to do that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Where
they are not wanted.


Mr.   S@: Yes, and where there would be unusual reasons for not wanting them. I should not imagine there would be many areas in Canada where there would be an active desire to acquire them.
On that point I wish to assure the hon. member that we shall welcome any suggestion, and that these orders may have to be further extended. Any suggestion made will receive very careful consideration, because it is the desire of the department to have these orders in form such as adequately to cope with the situation.
Japanese Nationals

Hon. GiROTE STIRLING (Yale): Mr. Speaker, if I might be permitted, under these unusual circumstances, I should like to make one or two comments. The minister has been good enough to explain to me some of the conditions under which this new order is being issued. I note that it applies not only to nationals, as did the previous order, but to those of Japanese origin. They are to move forthwith.
It appears to me not improbable that this may start something in the nature of a flood. I want to warn the government once more that if the representations and protests from the part of British Columbia which I represent are not heeded, and these people are allowed to filter in and to settle for a temporary period, even under lease, I am very much afraid there will be grave trouble.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the minister. I understood him' to say that those Japanese in areas considered most vital are to be moved. My understanding is that the first Japanese to be moved are the Japanese nationals. My question is: Will Japanese be moved from vital areas, such as power plants, irrespective of their nationality?


Mr.   S@: Yes; those to be first moved will be moved having respect to the area. The various departments of national defence are to indicate which areas they consider specially vulnerable, and all persons of Japanese origin are to be moved from those areas as quickly as possible.


George Alexander Cruickshank: They will be the first moved?


Mr.   S@: Yes; they will be the first ones moved.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make some comment respecting the point raised by the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling), and would suggest that we have to be reasonable. If we are going to put the onus on the government-and it will have to be put on the government-of removing these people from areas in which it is dangerous to leave them, we must remember that they must be settled somewhere. There is an obligation upon the government to find a place to put them. There is also an obligation upon hon. members to assist the government in finding that place. Otherwise there is no rhyme or reason to the attitude we take.


George Alexander Cruickshank: We have done that.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the house adjourned at 6.20 p.m.

Monday, March 2, 1942