1942-05-14

Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: they sought shelter and hiding in the inland creeks. During the debates this session I referred to Hitler's spring offensive for 1942, already begun, and my remarks will be found in Hansard. I said that he would seek a knock-out in 1942 on the Atlantic to cut Britain's life line. I referred also to the menace to the American continent' from the Atlantic and Pacific with perhaps an invasion of Canada from our front, side and back door. The extract I wish to read is from one of the most able papers in Great Britain, the National Review. I shall read just the relevant parts of this article which appeared in the February issue, page 121. The writer is the ablest man in this war; he has predicted everything that has happened so far. Referring to St. Pierre and Miquelon, he says:
Some weeks ago, Admiral Muselier, the commander of free French navy, did the allies the signal service of landing on St. Pierre and Miquelon, two French islands near Newfoundland, and taking them over in the name of General de Gaulle. He did this in response to a request from the inhabitants, who found themselves at odds with the Vichy officials who were still governing them. The sturdy descendants of Breton fishermen who live on the other side of the Atlantic had no mind to see their islands used against Canada and the British in the event of Vichy turning them over to Hitler.
Then follows reference to the same matter to which I referred, and the article continues:
During the ruthless German attack on our Atlantic shipping, it was criminal to leave such a nest for pirate-protection free to work its mischief. IV c do not know whether the attention of the British and American governments was called to what was going on. It seems probably that it was, for the activity of the Vichy friends of Germany was well known, not only to the fishermen on the islands-there are several thousands of them-but to the British in Newfoundland, barely twenty miles away. In any case nothing was done, the Monroe doctrine being invoked to defend inaction, while an agreement that there should be no disturbance of the American status quo during the war, was further used to produce inertia.
The last sentence reads:
Seeing that there would be no betterment in the affairs of their island from the two great powers, the inhabitants of St. Pierre and Miquelon appealed to General de Gaulle, who acted with military promptitude, and sent Admiral Muselier to seize the islands in the name of free France. This was done. The United States of America protested at once, and their press supported them, while certain elements in Canada were doubtful. A valuable passage in Mr. Churchill's Ottawa speech brushed away the anti-de Gaulle talk. The names of the Free French, he said, "will be held and are being held in increasing respect by nine Frenchmen out of every ten."
I think this is sufficient explanation. Further, I believe it is correct. I should like to give the

minister some other papers along the same lines, but they are in Toronto. I would point out also that various matters the minister speaks of as being private were known to the axis powers, as everything we do is known; so why the secrecy? I refer him to Ribben-trop's speech and radio talks about Canada since the war began, about the great lakes and the lack of defence on our two coasts. He lived here for years and got all the information.
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): As I understand the statement made yesterday by the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) it was a statement of fact, namely, that for nearly the past two years German U-boats have sheltered in the creeks, inlets and harbours of St. Pierre and Miquelon where they flashed signals at night from the shores in order to help to sink Atlantic shipping. I asked the hon. gentleman yesterday if he were prepared to make that statement as a statement of fact on his responsibility as a member of this house and I have not been able to gather to-day that the hon. gentleman takes that responsibility. Does he state that he knows it to be a fact that there were German U-boats sheltering in the creeks and inlets of St. Pierre and Miquelon for the last two years?


Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):: He states it on the basis of an article in the National Review. No one member of this house could give it as his own personal information, but he states it on the basis of what he considers is reliable information. It may not be true, I do not know.


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: I
regret to say that I was not able to understand everything the hon. member for Broadview said. Does the article in the National Review state definitely that there are bases in St. Pierre and Miquelon?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think
that is correct.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
hould like to see the National Review and the other documents referred to by my hon. friend before attempting to give an answer.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think
that is fair.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
have never seen it stated anywhere that German U-boats were sheltering in these islands. It may have been stated, but I have

Questions
never seen it. I stated yesterday, and I repeat it to-day, that we know that German U-boats can cross the Atlantic, pursue their nefarious trade on this coast, and return to their European bases without the necessity of refuelling.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
1942 VICTORY LOAN-BANK LOANS TO INDIVIDUALS AND CORPORATIONS
['1.\t600,000,000 pounds.\n2.\tDuring the first thirty-one weeks of the present contract period, 382,000,000 pounds have been purchased for shipment.\n3.\tIt is expected that the contract for\n600,000,000 pounds will be closely approximated. ,\n4.\tAnswered by No. 3.\n\nShipping Losses']
Mr. QUELCH:: What amount was loaned by the chartered banks to individuals and corporations for the purchase of victory bonds in the 1942 campaign?


Mr. ILSLEY:: Loans as at March 31, 1942 Instalment subscriptions under
the official plan	 $ 50,594,437
Loans against security of second victory loan bonds... 159,209,496



[Stage Direction]
The above figures include those for the Montreal City and District Savings Bank.

Mr. JEAN:: 1.	Is the government aware that the market gardeners of the district of Montreal are suffering from a labour shortage?
2.	If so, have any steps been taken to deal with this situation?
3.	What is the nature of such measures?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1 and 2. Yes.
3.	The appropriate provincial authorities have made a survey of the situation and have conferred with the Ministers of Labour and National War Services. The plan being followed is to enlist voluntary assistance from senior students and other sources to work under the leaders of various group organizations. Assistance has been asked from the Department of National War Services in the matter of giving special consideration to requests for postponement of the period of military service of certain group leaders and such special consideration has been arranged. At the interview with officials of the provincial governments and those actively engaged in the solution of this problem it was stated that the granting of consideration along the
line above referred to would permit of the shortage being met to a reasonable degree.


&quot;CANADIANS ALL&quot;-A PRIMER OF CANADIAN NATIONALITY
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	On whose instructions was the pictorial book written, "Canadians All"

A Primer of Canadian National Unity-by Watson Kirkeonnell, M.A.?
2.	What were his instructions, what was the cost of the book, how many copies were distributed, and ivhat were his qualifications for such a task?
3.	In how many languages was this book written, and what was the number of copies printed in each language?
4.	Is the writer a returned soldier, and in what theatre of the great war did he serve overseas ?
5.	How many editions of this book have been published, was any part of it expunged in later editions and, if so, what parts?


Mr. THORSON:: 1.	On, the instructions of the Director of Public Information.
2.	(a) Instructions were,to prepare a booklet suitable for distribution in connection with the Public Information series of radio broadcasts entitled "Canadians All"; the main theme being to emphasize the importance of national unity in time of war and to educate Canadians of every racial group concerning the contributions to our national culture and welfare being made by other groups.
(b)	$16,465.26.
(.c) 296,000.
(d)	Professor Kirkeonnell is internationally recognized as one of the greatest authorities on ethnology, particularly with reference to Canadian problems.
3.	(a) Two: English and French. Section 1 of the booklet was published in both languages. Section 2 appeared only in the English edition. The French counterpart of Section 2 was published in the French-Cana-dian newspapers.
(b) English: 232,000. French: 64,000.
4.	(a) Yes.
(b) No information.
5.	Two. Following Russia's reorientation in world affairs, in June, 1941, certain passages on page 16 were revised. Also new sections dealing with Canadian Indians and Eskimos were added and the section referring to the Norwegians was rewritten. This additional copy made it necessary to delete one unessential paragraph from the section dealing with the Czechs and Slovaks.
Questions


USE OP INVENTIONS FOR WAR PURPOSES- PATENT RIGHTS
Mr. ESLING:: If pending patent applications are made secret under defence of Canada regulations, is there any provision for an inventor applicant to maintain his rights when an invention is turned over by the government to commercial concerns for the manufacture of war equipment?


Mr. McLARTY:: Rights of an inventor applicant, in application made secret under the provisions of the defence of Canada regulations, are protected under the provisions of subsections (3) and (4) of regulation 19, defence of Canada regulations.
If and when a patent is issued, compensation for use may be fixed under section 19 of the Patent Act, 1935.
Attention is also called to order in council P.C. 6982, 4th December, 1940, printed in vol. 3, proclamations and orders in council, passed under the authority of the War Measures Act, at page 163.


GAS REDUCTION CARBURETTORS
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Have any carburettors for motor cars, capable of reducing the amount of gas consumption, been invented and patented in Canada since 1930?
2.	If so, on what date, by whom, and how many?
3.	Have any of these carburettors, whether patented or not, been sold to the Canadian government or the government of the United Kingdom, or to private individuals, or firms or foreign countries?
4.	(a) By whom were the sales made, (b) to whom, (e) at what price, (d) where are they used?


Mr. ROY:: I ask leave to withdraw this question in order to reword it.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.


INTERNMENTS-RELEASE OF 1. FRANCESCHINI
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	When was Leonard Franceschini interned; what was the date of his release?
2.	Upon what ground was his release granted?
3.	Was his ease considered by an advisory committee; if so, what was its recommendation?
4.	On what date did the said committee report to the Minister of Justice?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	Leonard Franceschini was detained on September 7, 1940, he was released on June 27, 1941.
2.	He was released on the ground that it was not considered that he was likely to act in any manner prejudical to the public safety or the safety of the state.
3.	Yes; its recommendation was for release.

4.	The committee made its first recommendation under date of March 17, 1941; further material was supplied and a second recommendation confirming the first made under date of April 25, 1941.


NATIONAL AND REGIONAL WAR LABOUR BOARDS
Mr. MacNICOL:: 1.	Has the national war labour board and/or a regional war labour board authority to order an increase in a basic scale of wages paid by an employer ?
2.	If the national war labour board and/or a regional war labour board has such authority, under what conditions may it be exercised?
3.	Has the attention of the government been directed to any decisions of a regional war labour board in which such board has exceeded its authority?
4.	Has the national war labour board the power to annul decisions given by a regional war labour board?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Yes, under the provisions of section 11, subsection (2) of order in council P.C. 8253.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	In three or four cases it has been claimed that the decisions of regional boards have not been in accordance with the provisions of the order but it has not been shown that a regional board has exceeded its authority.
4.	No, but under the by-laws of the national board if opinion of the members of a regional war labour board is not unanimous, the case is to be referred to the national war labour board for guidance before decision is made by such regional board.


BACON-SHIPMENTS TO BRITAIN-RESTRICTION OF SALES IN CANADA
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	What is the bacon quota which Canada is expected to supply England this year?
2.	How much of this has already been shipped?
3.	Will it be possible to complete the balance of the quota?
4.	If not, has the government considered restricting the sale of bacon in Canada?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	600,000,000 pounds.
2.	During the first thirty-one weeks of the present contract period, 382,000,000 pounds have been purchased for shipment.
3.	It is expected that the contract for
600,000,000 pounds will be closely approximated. ,
4.	Answered by No. 3.

Shipping Losses



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many employees, men and women, has the wartime prices and trade board in each province out delivering speeches, lectures and radio addresses, and writing material to be used by them, supporting policies of that board, at public meetings and banquets and at lectures.
2.	What are their names, salaries, hotel bills, travelling expenses and all other expenses?
3.	Who instructs the speakers, and do they state government policy at these meetings?


ROBERT SIMPSON COMPANY-EMPLOYEES IN GOVERNMENT SERVICE
Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	How many persons, whose last employment or position was with the Robert Simpson Company, Limited, of Toronto, have been appointed to government boards or have been or are employed by boards or departments under the jurisdiction of the dominion government from September 1, 1939, to April 30, 1942?
2.	How many such persons are at present in the employ of the government in, (a) Department of Finance, (b) Department of National Defence, (c) Department of Munitions and Supply, (d) Department of War Services,
(e)	Department of Labour?
3.	What are their names?
4.	What is the salary and/or other remuneration paid to each?



SHIPPING LOSSES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services.
On May 12 the minister gave a statement to the press in relation to the sinking of a freighter in the St. Lawrence by enemy action. Yesterday the minister in reply to the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) further stated that a second ship had been sunk by enemy action in the same general locality at about the same time. In both statements the .minister indicated that in future it would be the policy of the department not to make any announcement of any further sinkings in this area, on the ground that to do so might convey valuable information to the enemy; that such information cannot and will not be given in answer to questions in the house or elsewhere and in no circumstances will it be given unless the government is satisfied that the enemy will not benefit therefrom.
In view of the fact that the enemy must have information of these sinkings, and that the government of the United States are announcing their losses from time to time, and that periodically Britain has announced similar losses, I desire to ask the minister to review this policy. I suggest to him that such a policy is not good for the morale of the people of Canada. They hear these stories, in most cases well authenticated. Now and hereafter the press is censored and the public is not allowed to know the truth, and the stories grow in repeating them. Isolated sinkings in the St. Lawrence estuary are not like the sinkings on the Atlantic or in the Mediterranean, or even in the far east, in which last named locality the reports of sinkings have been published at least in the United States and in Canada. Personally, I cannot conceive that the publication of true reports of these sinkings is of any particular value to the enemy or that the censorship now imposed will prevent the enemy from knowing of the sinkings.
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): Mr. Speaker, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) gave me a copy of his question just before three o'clock, and in reply to what he has just said I must say that I see no reason whatever for changing the policy announced yesterday and the day before.
My hon. friend and the house will understand me when I say that if I were to begin to explain the reasons for the policy, that in itself might be of some aid and comfort to the enemy. If I said why we are withholding this information, or if I said when would be the proper time to announce a sinking, that explanation in itself might give information to the enemy.
The government of the United States, it i3 true, have released from time to time news of the sinking of ships, but I think in recent weeks the policy of that government has become a little more rigid in that regard, and a great many of the reports that we see in the newspapers here of shipping losses by the United States originate, I think, in the press and news agencies of that country.
My hon. friend says that Britain announces losses. In due course they do; I agree. But the time of these announcements may vary. The loss of the Prince oj Wales and the Repulse was announced almost immediately because ships of that type, of course, are easily recognizable by the enemy and the information was already in their hands. Whenever we are sure that they have a certain amount of information and the actual facts,
Postal Service

there is no reason why we should withhold the news, but until we are certain of that we might help the enemy by giving out the information.
My hon. friend says that sinkings in the St. Lawrence estuary are on a similar basis to sinkings in the Mediterranean or in the far east. I cannot agree. There are reasons which I could disclose in private to my hon. friend, but which I do not think I should make public, why sinkings in an area like the gulf of St. Lawrence or the estuary of the river St. Lawrence are in a very different position from sinkings, say, on the high seas.
I do not think I should say any more. I have discussed the matter with the intelligence branch of the Department of Naval Services. I discussed it again with them this morning, and I had the great benefit of having present at the conference this morning a member of the intelligence staff of the British Admiralty, who is now in this country. He agrees entirely as to the great necessity for very careful tensorship of any news regarding TJ-boat sinkings, and the reasons he gave and the reasons the members of my own staff gave appeal to me very strongly. Consequently I feel that at this time it would be unwise to make any further statements regarding sinkings in the St. Lawrence.



POSTAL SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the house that it is expected that a new series of postage stamps which will replace the present issue will be released about July 1.
The new designs will reflect Canada's share in the war, with special emphasis on the armed forces, production of munitions and war supplies, and agriculture. The new postage stamp issue will consist of the following denominations and subjects:
One cent, green, portrait of His Majesty the King, in naval uniform.
Two cents, brown, portrait of His Majesty the King, in military uniform.
Three cents, red, portrait of His Majesty the King, in air force uniform.
Four cents, gray, Canadian grain elevators. Five cents, blue, portrait of His Majesty the King, in naval uniform.
Eight cents, sepia, Canadian farm scene. Ten cents, brown, parliament buildings, Ottawa and union jack.
Thirteen cents, dark green, ram tank, Canadian army.

Twenty cents, purple, Canadian corvette ready for launching.
Fifty cents, brown, Canadian munitions factory.
One dollar, blue, destroyer, Royal Canadian Navy.
Six cents air mail, blue, British commonwealth air training plan.
Ten cents special delivery, green, Canadian coat-of-arms and flags. The flags are: union jack, representing the army; the naval ensign; and the Royal Canadian Air Force flag.
Also at the same time a new sixteen-cent stamp will be issued to cover combined air mail and special delivery service. This stamp will bear a picture of a trans-Canada aeroplane in flight, and will be bluish-violet in colour.



JAPANESE NATIONALS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):: I desire to ask certain questions
of the Minister of Labour, based on a dispatch which appeared in the Ottawa morning Journal of to-day, under date Vancouver, May 13: Army guards with fixed bayonets to-night patrolled the railway tracks in front of Vancouver's immigration building where Japanese, awaiting removal to the interior, earlier staged their first outbreak of violence since war came to the Pacific.
Late to-day, the Japanese housed in the waterfront building smashed windows, pushed an iron grating to the street and turned a fire hose upon a guard and into the street where crowds gathered.
The outbreak, described by Austin C. Taylor, chairman of the British Columbia Security Commission, as "more playful than anything else" was quickly quelled.
To-night, however, there was more unintelligible shouting and rolls of paper unfolded from the second and third storeys, Japanese faces peered from smashed windows.
Mr. Taylor said the trouble apparently resulted from refusal to allow the Japanese to converse daily with friends outside. Until to-day, Japanese women had been allowed to stand at a distance and talk to the men through the iron-grated windows. The commission chairman added that the Japanese would be removed from the building soon to road camps in the interior of the province.
"There was nothing malicious about the trouble", said Mr. Taylor, whose commission has evacuated hundreds of Japanese from the vital Pacific coast defence zones. "It was more playful than anything else. Some of the Japanese just got a little fed up about being kept in the building and got a little exuberant. There was more yelling than anything else." Scores of passers-by were attracted to the building by the shouts that accompanied the smashing of glass. Guards on a nearby viaduct

Japanese Nationals
kept onlookers at a distance as the Japanese turned a firehose out through one of the broken windows, directing the stream of water to the ground.
Although this was the first outbreak of violence, Japanese housed at Hastings park "manning depot" prior to being sent to road jobs in the interior, previously staged what they termed a "sit-down strike". They protested against the breakfasts at the local park where several thousand Japanese are housed. The following morning they ate their food and all was quiet.
Evacuation of the more than 23,000 Japanese men, women and children in British Columbia was ordered by the dominion government last January. Shortly afterwards, the B.C. Security Commission was formed to handle the evacuation and since then hundreds of Japanese have been rounded up and sent away from the coast. Some have gone to the interior and to other provinces.
My questions are: (1) what action does the government intend taking in connection with this outbreak; (2) will steps be taken to guard against any further disturbances, (3) has the present security commission any intention of removing the Japanese east of the Cascades or is it preparing a permanent camp at Hastings park, Vancouver?


Humphrey Mitchell: Mr. Speaker, the men involved in the fracas of which my hon. friend has just spoken will be immediately interned. That is the answer to question number one. As to question number two, the guards will be increased. In reply to question number three, the security commission is removing the Japanese east of the Cascades as rapidly as possible. The camp at Hastings park is not permanent and is simply a clearing depot. The real estate adviser of the national defence department plans on using the buildings at Hastings park for the purposes of the national defence department as soon as the Japanese are removed.
In view of the fact that this question has been raised, I think I might give a statement as to the progress which is being made with this very difficult problem.
The number involved totals 22,084, distributed as follows:
Males	Women and children	TotalCanadian born	
3,378 Naturalized Canadians. 1,873 Japanese nationals.... 3,499 United States citizens. . 12	2,689 4,656 5,977	6,067 6,529 9,476 128,762	13,322	22,084The plans developed so far	are:	(a) Move all families off A	"ancouver	island
and other "vulnerable" locations at once.
(b)	Use Hastings park exhibition grounds, Vancouver, as a clearing station, feeding depot and hospital. There is accommodation there for 12,000 people.
(c)	Place 4,000 male Japanese nationals in road camps in interior of British Columbia.
(d)	Place 3,000 Canadian-born males in road camps in Ontario, later clearing them out to bush camps, et cetera, as opportunity offers.
(e)	Repair buildings in abandoned towns of Kaslo, Greenwood, Slocan City and Sandon for housing 5,000 women and children.
(f)	Place 500 families-approximately 2,500 individuals-on Alberta sugar beet farms.
(g)	Place 500 families-approximately 2,500 individuals-on Manitoba sugar beet farms.
(h)	Approximately 1,000 individuals have means to support themselves and arrangements are being developed to provide locations at Christina Lake, Bridge River and Minto in order that these persons can be given housing facilities only.
This is the progress made:
(a)	The task of moving families off Vancouver island and other vulnerable points has been practically completed except for a few cases where there are special problems such as bed-ridden individuals.
(b)	Hastings park exhibition grounds clearing station has been completed and buildings are in good shape. The number housed changes from day to day. On May 11 there were 2,555 individuals at the park.
(c)	and (d) Road camps are working satisfactorily, and on May 11, 1942, there were adult males in camps as follows: Blue River-Yellowhead project, 1,290; Revelstoke Sica-mous project, 417; Hope Princeton project, 237; Schreiber project (Ontario), 341; total, 2,285.
(e)	Repairs to buildings in abandoned towns are proceeding and the movement to these towns has commenced. As at May 11 there had been sent: Greenwood, 812; Kaslo, 185; Slocan City, 22; Sandon, 2; total, 1,021.
(f)	and (g) Sugar beet fields: 1,635 individuals have been moved to Alberta and those who are employable are working. The movement to Manitoba is well in hand and 720 have been located. Total to sugar beet fields is 2,355.
Arrangements were made for the location of a number of families who have undertaken to support themselves if assisted in finding a location. Movements already completed of this class are: Christina Lake, 80; Bridge River and Minto, 150; Lillooet, 51; Westwold, 35; a total of 316.
In addition to that we have what we call miscellaneous employments in commercial
Japanese Nationals

undertakings, and these have been approved in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec. The approval of the provinces was first obtained. Individuals placed under this plan are summarized in the following table:
British Columbia	 374
Alberta	 47
Manitoba	 8
Ontario	 60
Quebec	 28
Saskatchewan	 8
Total	 525
Arrangements are being worked out by the Ontario government for the placement of 500 men in Ontario sugar beet fields.
Summary
Moved from vulnerable locations	 4,300
Placed in road camps	 2,285
Placed in abandoned towns	 1,021
Placed in sugar beet fields	 2,385
Placed in self-supporting locations. 316 Miscellaneous approved employment 525
(a)	Placed in internment camps 96
(b)	To be interned, now in
immigration hall	 130

 226
Temporarily housed in Hastings
park	  2,555
Total	 9,313


Mr. MacINNIS:: What class of Japanese were held in the immigration sheds? I understood when I was on the coast last winter that only those held for internment were in the immigration shed. How long were they there?


Humphrey Mitchell: Those were Japanese who refused to go to the road camps in Ontario. They were more or less on a sit-down strike. We have to be fair about that. It was thought that probably they had changed their mind, but apparently they had not and they went on the rampage last night.



FLOODS IN ALBERTA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:	.
Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: I wish to direct a question to the minister in charge of public works, on the basis of a telegram I received this morning:
Serious emergency exists in High River owing to river in flood changing its course, flooding main business section permanently. Original federal dyke holding. This needs extending. Disastrous condition needs your immediate attention.
H. B. MacLeod,
Mayor, town of High River.
Has the government been advised of this? If so, what action has been taken?
[Mr. Mitchell.l


Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Acting Minister of Public Works):: Just a few minutes before three o'clock a letter directed to the Deputy Minister of Public Works was brought to my attention. In substance it contains a copy of the telegram which the hon. gentleman has read. This, I am informed, is the first intimation that has reached the Department of Public Works with regard to the conditions described in the telegram. I have asked the deputy and the chief engineer to look into the matter and as soon as the report is complete I will bring it to the attention of the hon. member. In the meantime, I am led to believe that this is a matter that should come under provincial jurisdiction.



PRIVILEGE-MR. POULIOT REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF HON. MR. HANSON ON MAY 13

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JEAN-FRANQOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): I rise to a point of order and a question of privilege. Referring to the last page of Hansard of yesterday I see a statement by the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) to the effect that we have taken up national defence and the navy and finished them. My point of order is that that statement is inaccurate. The department of the navy was finished but national defence was not. My question of privilege is this. I deny the leader of opposition the right to say anything on my behalf.
Richard Burpee Hanson: I stand corrected by the hon. gentleman.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):: May I be permitted to direct a question to the Acting Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) arising out of a telegram received from the district secretary-treasurer of the united mine workers of Nova Scotia setting out that the condition at Inverness coal mine is due to lack of orders. In view of the fact that the Canadian National Railways supply the main market for Inverness coal, can the minister explain to the house why a mine employing some four hundred men should be idle at this time?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Acting Minister of Transport):: My hon. friend gave notice of the question but I received it only a few

War Appropriation-Air Services
minutes before coming into the house. It will be necessary to get the answer from the railway offices. I will do so immediately and give it as soon as I can.



BANQTJE CANADIENNE NATION ALE-APPLICATION OF OFFICE AND PROFESSIONAL WORKERS FOR HEARING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Angus MacInnis: On Tuesday, in the absence of the Minister of Labour, I asked a question in regard to the application for a hearing before the Quebec regional war labour board on behalf of the employees of the Banque Canadienne Nationale. Has the minister the information in regard to that matter?


Humphrey Mitchell: The Department of Labour is aware that they made application, but we have not been informed by the regional board regarding the details.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, May 13, consideration in committee of a resolution to provide sums not exceeding $2,000,000,000 for the year ending March 31, 1943, for granting to his majesty aid for national defence and security-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.
Mr. POULIOT:: I am not going to take up much time to-day as the minister is busy. I wish to praise a few officers of his department, especially Squadron Leader Stewart, Mr. Malcom McLean, one of our former colleagues, and also his secretary Mr. Sharpe and Miss Gough, who is an admirable private secretary. They help us at times in connection with the transfer of French-speaking men in the air force when they are isolated among people who do not speak their tongue. I wish to give credit to them for what they do in that regard.
There are two things I want to say to-day and I shall be brief. I have before me a headline in the Ottawa Journal of May 12, "U-boat sinks freighter in St. Lawrence." It is a big headline across the first page of the Journal, and of course it was also a front page headline in all the papers of the country. That headline ought to have been "U-boat sunk by R.C.A.F." I do not say that to be critical of the R.CA.F. but what I complain about is that we have not sufficient defence in this country. The Germans should be
informed that whenever they have the audacity to come inland in the St. Lawrence river, so close to us, they will meet with proper defence and that they will not be allowed to go back home. That is the first thing I want to say.
The second point is that in the united nations air conference which will take place next week, the minister should have no inferiority complex towards the delegates from any part of the world, considering the work that is being done by the R.C.A.F. jointly with the Royal Air Force in England and elsewhere in the theatres of war. I hope there will be no more commitments to send any more of our own men outside of this country before the defence of this country is assured and completed.


Mr. FRASER (Northumberland):: I should like to make one or two observations in connection with the remarks of the hon. member for Brantford City (Mr. Macdonald) as recorded on page 2351 of Hansard of May 12. The hon. member indicated that the people of Brantford were disturbed and inconvenienced by the movement of the aeroplanes connected with the airport and flying school located near Brantfordl, and the flashing of the rotary beacon on that air base. I am prompted to refer to the hon. member's remarks, first because of the press publicity they have received and second because those remarks to me are indicative of an attitude of a great many Canadian citizens in connection with the prosecution of this war and the seriousness of the crisis with which this country is confronted. I have the privilege of living in a town close to the largest air training base in Canada, if not in the world, and I want to tell this committee that I lie in my bed at night listening to those planes rising from that air base day and night-
(The hon. member for Edmonton East- Mrs. Casselman-in the chair):


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: If my hon.
friend will excuse me I wish on behalf of the committee to express the pleasure it gives to us all to see a lady member (Mrs. Casselman) occupying the chair of the deputy speaker of the house for the first time in its history. I extend as well congratulations to the house on having a lady member acting as chairman of the committee.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I add a word to what the Prime Minister has said, and say how pleased I think every hon. member is to see you, Madam Chairman, occupying with great dignity the chair in committee of the whole.

IFar Appropriation-Air Services


William Alexander Fraser: May I
add my words of congratulation to those already spoken. As a private member I consider it a great honour to be the first humble back-bencher to speak under the chairmanship of a gracious lady in the person of the hon. member for Edmonton East.
I was saying that as I lie in my bed at night next to that airport-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Alexander Fraser: I see
that hon. members fully recognize the import of the statement I have just made. As I listen to those planes operating day and night, winter and summer, I thank God that these young men who are offering their services and their lives for Canada are part of Canada's contribution to this war.


Mr. McNIVEN:: And that they are
friendly planes.


William Alexander Fraser: And that they are friendly planes, and that the sound of changing the pitch of the propeller is not the noise of enemy bombs dropping on Canadian soil. I repeat that it seems to me the hon. member's remarks are indicative of the complacency of the Canadian people in the present serious situation. I want to compliment the Minister of National Defence for Air, who is in charge of the Royal Canadian Air Force and the air defence of Canada; but I suggest that the sooner the citizens of Canada develop a complex of hate and revenge and determination	against our
enemies who perpetrate such atrocities as those of Hong Kong and who are sinking ships and murdering innocent seamen in the gulf of St. Lawrence, the sooner we are going to get a proper grasp on the seriousness of this war and the sooner the Canadian people will be willing to sacrifice their all in connection with our participation in the struggle.
There is not only too much complacency in Canada, there is too much individual selfishness, too much of the spirit indicated by the remarks of the hon. member for Brantford City as to inconvenience and disturbance by a beacon light on a defence air post keeping people awake. We are thinking too much of self and have not enough realization of the desperate life and death struggle in which this country is engaged. Therefore I could not refrain from making this reference to the remarks of the hon. member.
In my opinion our greatest contribution to this war effort is that made by the Royal Canadian Air Force under the empire training scheme. Next to me in the town of Trenton lives a family of which one son, one of the finest types of young Canadians, who was in

the Royal Canadian Air Force, was killed the other day bombing over France and Germany. This boy gave his life to protect my home and the homes of other Canadians, and although my home is adjacent to that air base I say to my hon. friend and to every hon. member that that boy's parents thank God every night that other young Canadians have the national spirit and the guts to fly through winter and summer learning how to bomb our enemies. And I should feel myself remiss in my duty if I did not try to impress upon hon. members the necessity of taking a different point of view of this whole situation and getting away from this petty sense of inconvenience, of being disturbed in their sleep by the light of a beacon or the noise of changing pitch of a propeller. If they are kept awake they should get out of their beds and kneel down and thank God that those young Canadians are willing to give their lives for the protection of Canadian homes.


Mr. PERLEY:: Madam Chairman, I am delighted to join with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in expressing the pleasure I am sure of all hon. members in seeing you for the first time in this very responsible position. We, the members of the opposition, shall be happy to see you there often; for we know that we shall get fair and impartial treatment from the chair. I am confident you will do credit not only to yourself but to the women of Canada whom you represent in this house.
I desire now to take a moment to express my admiration of the Minister of National Defence for Air for the frank way in which he has dealt with matters relating to his department in giving information to this committee, not only in the general statement he made but also in answering the many questions put to him. I was unable to be present in the house yesterday because I had to attend another meeting, but I have looked through Hansard, and I followed the proceedings the previous day, when I was here most of the time. Many of the questions I had intended to put to the minister already have been answered, so I need not take very much time this afternoon.
Right at the outset I should like to join in what has been said already by the hon. member for Peel, the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George, and the hon. member who just took his seat and others, in paying tribute to the gallant^ members of the air force both in Canada and overseas, who at all times, day and night, face great dangers. As members of parliament we cannot adequately express our admiration for these

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young men. The whole of western Canada has made a wonderful contribution to the air force, and within the last ten days my own district has been very severely hit. In the first place we had a military funeral, for the first time in our history. A young man who had been overseas and who had been returned to Canada fell ill in Montreal, was taken to the hospital and died. They gave him the honour of a military funeral at Wolseley; some forty members of the air force were there; the ceremony was very inspiring and gave great comfort to the mother, who is a widow with two other sons also in the air force. On Sunday last in that same town they held a memorial service for a young man who was killed while flying over France; his death was reported in the Ottawa papers of the day before yesterday. Only to-day I received word by air mail that the son of my opponent in the last election crashed and was killed yesterday while training near Yorkton. These incidents just go to illustrate that these men are in danger all the time, whether flying over France, over the Pacific or in training in Canada. I pay my tribute to the gallantry of the members of our air force.
The minister has dealt with the three branches of his department-the home war establishment, the overseas war establishment, and the commonwealth air training plan. The minister stated the number of trained men being turned out each month under this plan, and I was pleased to see that this number is 25 per cent greater than the estimate he gave last year when his department was under review. That is encouraging, and I hope it will continue. It is important that it should, because I believe the air force is going to play a very important part in the winning of this war-and we are going to win it.
The previous speaker referred to the remarks of the hon. member for Brantford City (Mr. Macdonald) who outlined some of the nuisances which had to be endured in the vicinity of an airport. When the minister was asked whether there were to be any further aerodromes established in Canada, he said there were not. Well, he has his department well in hand; I believe he knows what is best, and if we are getting the necessary number of trained men, that is all right with me. But in passing I may say that the people in some parts of my own district were encouraged a year ago, by the number of survey parties in that area, particularly those looking over some of the fields already surveyed and in use by Trans-
Canada Air Lines. I can assure the minister that if it becomes necessary to establish more training centres, we will gladly put up with any inconvenience, noise or anything of the sort that may be incidental thereto. We in Wolseley are near Regina and only about sixty miles from Yorkton. We hear the drone of aeroplanes at night, but that has never caused me any particular discomfort, nor have I lost a wink of sleep as yet.
I was encouraged to hear the statement of the minister that according to his estimate there are sufficient men available to meet the requirements of the air force at least for the next six months and perhaps for the next year. I have received many letters, and have been visited by several young men, complaining that they have been examined and accepted but that sometimes they have to wait a long time before being called up. This tends to make them discouraged. I know of some young men who were very anxious to get into the air force but had to wait so long before being called up that they went into the army instead. In this connection there is one point I should like to bring to the attention of the minister, though I believe it was pretty well discussed a day or two ago. There must be a number of men in the ground crews of the air force, with good education, who could be used to advantage in the army. They are not getting ahead very quickly in the ground crews, and I think some of them are dissatisfied.
I was pleased to read what the minister had to say with respect to equalizing the pay and allowances of the members of the air force, particularly as between sergeant pilots and commissioned officers. I am sure this will make for a much better spirit on the part of these young men, because we all agree that when they are in the air, whether they are observers, gunners, pilots or anything else, they all face the same dangers and should be treated alike. This matter has been so well dealt with, however, that I need not take up further time on it.
I have just one word of complaint to offer in conclusion, with respect to some of the training centres in Saskatchewan. I have in my hand a return which I requested on February 20, with regard to the water supply at some of the air fields and training centres in my province. According to this return, contracts were let for the drilling of wells, with gravel walls, at $15 and $18 per foot; and in addition there was a contract at S2 per foot for the test hole, a small hole about two inches in diameter. Those rates were altogether out of reason. The original contract was sublet. I appreciate the fact that the minister

War Appropriation-Air Services
cannot look after every one of these things, that someone else must do it for him, but there should be some cheek. Certainly a contract of that kind was out of all reason and proportion.
I was going to deal with the question of the salvage of oil, but on looking over Hansard I find that it has been dealt with already. A question of mine dealing with this matter was passed yesterday as an order for return, and I should have the information in due course. But I do think some attention should be given to the matter of salvaging lubricating oils and so forth at these airports.
There is one other matter which perhaps the minister should take up with some other department, possibly the Department of Mines and Resources. The government should investigate the possibilities of producing gasoline from the tar sands in the northern part of Saskatchewan and Alberta. I ask the minister to keep this in mind. This war may be won or lost because of oil supplies. There is a wonderful field in that part of the country and I trust it has not been neglected. I believe there are possibilities of producing gasoline which would mean a lot, not only to this country but to the empire.
Madam Chairman, I am not going to take up any more of the time of the committee as I know the minister is anxious to get away. I want to express my appreciation of the frank manner in which he has answered our questions. I have had occasion at times to deal with his department and I have always found the officials there ready to display the same frankness the minister has displayed here. I hope other departments will take a little tip from him. If they would, it would help to establish confidence, not only on the part of members of the house but throughout the dominion generally.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Madam Chairman, may I first of all pay a tribute to you on the occasion of your being the first lady to assume the important duties involved in the chairmanship of the committee of the whole.
I want to say just a word about the remarks of the hon. member for Brantford City (Mr. Macdonald) as to the position in which his municipality has been placed. There is a municipality in my constituency which has offered the department clear title to two sections of land if they will establish an airport in the immediate vicinity. We believe that more airports should be established in southern Manitoba. We do not know why there are not more there, because our people are ready to play their part.
I should like to pay my tribute to the gallant airmen who have done so much for us

during this war. I think the record of southern Manitoba is equal to the rest of Canada in the number of young men who have enlisted in the air force. I am sorry to say that many of them have already made the supreme sacrifice. Many of these boys come from my constituency, and I know their families personally. They have offered their all, and we cannot measure the debt we owe them.
In this connection I should like to ask the minister if the courses have been accelerated or reduced, whether these men are trained in 'the same period of time as before or in a shorter period. I am referring particularly to air crew.


Mr. POWER:: I would prefer not to give any answer with respect to the length of courses or their extension.


James Arthur Ross: Another matter has been raised; I believe the hon. member for Lambton West (Mr. Gray) brought it up first, and I have had questions on the order paper about it. I have never been able to get it clear in my mind just how commissions are granted when these young men graduate. I cannot understand why one man is given a commission and another only a sergeancy. I should like to see this matter brought up at the coming conference. I believe the young men who are members of the air crew should hold the same rank; they should all be commissioned if possible.


Mr. WOOD:: I feel I would be somewhat remiss in my duty if I did not come to the defence of my colleague, the hon. member for Brantford City (Mr. Macdonald). I think it is unfair that so much publicity has been given to certain parts of his address the other day by certain sections of the press, especially here in Ottawa. They referred only to certain parts of his speech, which seems characteristic of some of the pre3S. This is done in an effort to have people believe the things they want them to believe for certain purposes of their own. I am proud to say that our local paper, the Brantford Expositor, does not put any unfair interpretation upon the remarks of my colleague. I am very happy to say that that is probably characteristic of the people that he and I have the honour to represent. They try to face issues and facts fairly and clearly.
I read the speech of the hon. member and I could not read into his remarks any complaint from the people of Brantford. The fact of the matter is that on page 2352 of Hansard he made this statement:
The people are not complaining about having these airports in their districts, but there are two sides to the story.

War Appropriation-Air Services
It is only fair to the hon. member for Brantford City to say that he emphasized the two sides of the situation. The hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) has justed stated that he would like to have some of these airports in his constituency, and that only brings to light the desirability of this privilege. However, for every privilege we receive there is a corresponding responsibility, and the bon. member for Brantford City pointed out that the people of Brantford welcomed the opportunity of accepting the responsibility that goes with that privilege.
I feel I should refer to the remarks of the hon. member for Northumberland, Ont., (Mr. Fraser) and the hon. member for Souris. There have been no people more anxious to serve in this war effort than the people of Brant and the people of Brantford whom the hon. member and I represent in this house. The record of enlistments from this particular community will compare favourably with that of any other section of the dominion. I do not want to boast, but the fact is that in the little town of Paris in my constituency, which takes in part of the city of Brantford as well, 8 per cent of the population has enlisted. That is evidence of their desire to serve. From now on the less said about these remarks the better, but if anything is to be said I hope that mention is made of both sides of the case.


Mr. MacNICOL:: What are the two sides?


George Ernest Wood: The privilege and the responsibility. The hon. member was just emphasizing that there were two sides. I might mention *that one of these military camps is situated on property which was donated to the Department of National Defence by the Six Nations Indians. .There has been little or no comment about that. There will be no taxes to be paid by the government, in fact there is no obligation whatever upon the government. This is characteristic not only of the people of the Six Nations but of the people of the city of Brantford. I might say also that the Six Nations council donated $1,000 annually to the Red Cross from their meagre funds. I ask hon. members, therefore, to familiarize themselves with some of the contributions made by the people in this district before they make any criticism of them.


Thomas Langton Church: Madam Chairman, there are one or two matters I should like to have the minister keep in mind when the air conference meets next week. I know he is anxious to get away and I shall be as brief as possible.
In his statement the minister made reference to his recent visit to Great Britain. As
I see it, the war situation to-day has changed since then and since the battles in the far east; we have lost the command of the sea in the Pacific, and I would ask the minister bo bear that in mind at the air conference next week. I believe that that conference will be the forerunner of what Australia has been asking for from the British authorities for six months, namely, a -war cabinet on which Britain and the dominions will be represented, as there was in the last war, for quick and united empire action. The situation so far as Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are concerned has changed greatly through Japanese command of sea power in the Pacific and the way Japan is roaming around there. These three dominions are in grave danger. Mr. Curtin has spoken very strongly of the need of Australian representation where empire policy is being discussed, and Mr. Menzies, the former prime minister, also referred to it in this chamber and since. Those two very able prime ministers of Australia pointed out that empire policy decisions with respect to the war, and affecting all these dominions, were being made in the far east and other theatres when they were not present, decisions which went against them, and that they were not consulted on what empire policy should be. I think that is shown by the loss of our supremacy of the sea in the Pacific and by the battles in the far east. In the last war the empire war cabinet was a great success. Each dominion prime minister or his nominee was a member. It saved the war from being lost. I hope the minister will bear this in mind and not press too strongly for anything different at the air conference next week or for Canada to act separately from the other dominions.
We are all proud of what Canada has done so far in the air. It makes a glorious page in the history of the empire, but I hope that the minister at that conference will listen to Australia and New Zealand and the mother country because I believe that the most important matter to be decided at the conference is whether or not the dominions are to have a say in empire policy in the far east, in the Pacific and on the Atlantic and other theatres of war-to act together to save the empire-and of course air power is intimately related to the command of the sea, as well as command of the land. Australia and New Zealand, after the losses in the far east, made a strong appeal to the United States for help, and they are getting it. Canada should qualify for aid on the same status also, for its empire training scheme.
The defence policy of this country has two cardinal points: one is home defence, and the other is to protect Canada's neutrality in case

War Appropriation-Air Services
the American continent is attacked by a foreign power, meaning Japan; and Japan has already made that attack at Pearl Harbour, an attack which shocked the civilized world. In my opinion, if Australia and New Zealand can get aid under the lease-lend or other bills of the United States, and aid as allies, and they are getting it, so should Canada; for this country has helped the united nations war effort by building advanced air bases on both oceans and by the empire air training scheme. If any country is entitled to qualify for aid under the lease-lend and other aid bills it is Canada, and I hope that these matters will be remembered at the air conference next week.
I trust that something will also be done to rectify the inequalities of pay in the air force, which are very serious. Some civilian members of the air force are in uniform as pilot officers-a misnomer

and receive higher pay than pilots, sergeants, gunners and observers who are flying over Germany. I think the minister himself, who is a good business administrator, will agree with me that changes should be made in that respect immediately and these inequalities removed.
I should also like to see a change made in the syllabus and schedule of training at the manning pool in Toronto. In the last war the men remained at the manning pool for only two or three days, but in this war some of them have been there for weeks and months, some of them from last September, and for over a year have had only guard duty and infantry drill. Perhaps the minister has given some explanation of this, but I know that it is very unsatisfactory to the men, many of whom gave up good positions expecting to get overseas at an early date, to have to stay at the manning pool doing precision drills, infantry drill, marching up the Humber and back, and doing guard duty. It is far too much for them; it is a waste of time where training is costly and should be speeded up.
As I said when the Minister of Munitions and Supply introduced his first bill in connection with the Trans-Canada Air Lines, I wanted him to take over the pioneers, the civilian clubs. I appreciate what the civilian flying clubs did before the war. I said in the last parliament, when I was sitting where the hon. member for Lake Centre now sits, that the civilian flying clubs did great work before the war in giving flying instruction and in educating the people to become air-minded at a time when Canada was sleeping. I think these schools should be united now in an empire air training scheme with the two great railway systems of this country, because civil aviation after the war is going to be the greatest thing in the world, particularly in Canada. That is IMr. Church.]
one of the great issues in England to-day, and the air minister for Great Britain made a statement about it after there had been a prolonged debate in parliament. I hope the minister will bear these matters in mind at the air conference next week.


Angus MacInnis: I should like to refer
to a question I had on the order paper for a couple of weeks and which was answered yesterday by the Minister of National Defence for Air. My question had reference to the deputy minister of national defence for air. I will read the question and the answer and then point out what I believe to be a wrong condition of affairs.
My question consisted of five parts. Question 1 was:
Is S. L. de Carteret, deputy minister of National Defence for Air?
The answer to that was "yes." Question 2 was:
If so, (a) when was he appointed, (b) what is his present salary?
The answer to that was:
(a) February 1, 1941;	(b) no salary or
allowance from the government.
Question 3 was:
What was his business, trade or profession before accepting his present position with the government ?
The answer to that was:
Mr. S. L. de Carteret, vice president and general manager, Canadian International Paper Company; president, Continental Paper Products Limited; president, Masonite Company of Canada Limited; president, International Fibre Board Limited.
Question 4 was:
Does he continue active connection with his former business, trade or profession while in the employ of the government?
The answer to that was "yes." Question 5 was:
If so, what part of his time is given to his duties with the government and what part to his former business?
The answer to that was:
Full time service with the government and a portion of his spare time thereafter is devoted to the general supervision of his former-business.
I think it is wrong policy to have what is generally termed a dollar-a-year man in the position of deputy' minister of a department as important as the Department of National Defence for Air. This department is important enough to have a deputy minister who would be free to give his full time to the work of the department, without being distracted in any way by business concerns of his own. It

War Appropriation-Air Services
should be a matter of policy for the government that no business man shall be put in an important civil service position and continue at the same time to attend to his own businesses. I do not know whether the minister knows it or not, but there are two things which I should like to tell him. First, the people of Canada generally are very much disturbed about the influence of big business in the government.
The people of Canada have not forgotten the exposure of big business methods made by a special committee of this house which was later appointed as a royal commission, in 1934; I refer to the price spreads and mass buying committee and commission. Secondly, I tell the minister that the present government of Canada, despite professions it may make to the country, has an exceedingly bad name with organized labour. Organized labour is convinced that the hostile labour policy of the government is influenced by these big business men who have unlimited access to the government. I could name quite a number of them-men I have known over the years-who have opposed consistently every attempt by the workers to better their condition and every item of social legislation which was brought forward in either this parliament or any of the legislatures of the provinces.
With regard to the deputy minister of the Department of National Defence for Air, it has been brought to my attention that the employees affiliated with one of the Canadian congresses have been negotiating with Continental Paper Products Limited since November, 1941. The agreement has been before Mr. de Carteret since early in March of this year, and they cannot get any action on their negotiations because he says he has not time to deal with the matter.' The Department of Labour advise this organization that they are quite powerless to compel Mr. de Carteret or anyone else to negotiate with or recognize labour organizations. What I want to point out is, that this government has gone on record as favouring the principle of collective bargaining; it passed an order in council to that effect and gave it a great deal of publicity, but that order in council has not only been ignored by the heads of industry generally throughout the dominion but has been particularly and flagrantly ignored by business men in high positions in the government, or if you like, in the civil service. Therefore I think we have a right to insist that deputy ministers in charge of departments such as the one under the Deputy Minister of National Defence for Air should be civil servants, without any outside business ties or
obligations. There is no doubt that a person qualified to do that work can be found, and 1 insist that we adopt that principle and see that the government is not influenced by persons who are acting directly contrary to the very principles for which we are fighting.


Charles Gavan Power: I am sorry that I have not the time to go into a discussion of this matter with my hon. friend. I can only express my regret that he takes advantage of the opportunity presented by the presentation of service estimates, an appropriation of many millions of dollars to get on with the war, to endeavour to influence negotiations between the man who happens for the time being to be the deputy minister of this department and a labour union. In my opinion that is entirely irrelevant to the present discussion.


Angus MacInnis: No, Madam Chairman.
The minister has no right to impute motives to me. I have not imputed motives to the minister; I have been dealing with the facts; and the minister cannot get away from those facts by imputing a motive to me. I ask the minister to withdraw the imputation.


Charles Gavan Power: I am dealing with facts.
The facts set forth by the hon. gentleman are that certain labour organizations-


Angus MacInnis: I insist that the minister withdraw his imputation.


An hon, MEMBER:: Order. The Chairman is on her feet.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mrs. Cassel-man):: The minister has the floor, I believe.


Angus MacInnis: But is the minister going to withdraw his imputation?


Charles Gavan Power: I have not made any
imputation.


Angus MacInnis: Oh yes, you have. You
said I took advantage-


Frederick Clayton Casselman: The minister has the floor.


Angus MacInnis: But, Madam Chairman,
the minister has not the floor until he withdraws the statement to which I object. That is a rule of this house, that no one can impute motives to anyone else.


Mr. ROWE:: Who is chairman?


Angus MacInnis: I do not care who is
chairman; I have my rights in this chamber.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: The minister has denied that he
imputed any motives to the hon. member for Vancouver East.

War Appropriation-Air Services


Angus MacInnis: But the minister said
that I took advantage of this occasion to influence labour negotiations.


Charles Gavan Power: Well?


Angus MacInnis: Well, I insist that the
minister withdraw the statement.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: Will the hon. member for Vancouver East please state what words he is objecting to?


Angus MacInnis: The minister said that
I took advantage of this occasion when this appropriation was before the committee to influence the negotiations in a labour dispute. Now, I insist that he is imputing a motive to me, and that he must withdraw.


Charles Gavan Power: I suppose I may speak to the point of order. My hon. friend stated that the question at issue between a labour union and a company of which my deputy is, I take it, the head, had been before my deputy for several months, or since the month of March, and that my deputy would not listen to the representations of labour. I think that is stating fairly what the hon. gentleman has said, is it not?


Angus MacInnis: No, I said he had always said he was too busy to deal with the matter.


Charles Gavan Power: All right; whether he said he was too busy to deal with the matter, or would not listen to them, makes no difference to this argument. And upon that, I reply to my hon. friend by saying that I regret that he should take advantage of these estimates to endeavour to influence negotiations between a labour union and a company with which my deputy is connected; and I think that that is perfectly in order. I do not see anything wrong with it.


Angus MacInnis: Oh, no. That is an
imputation. I want the minister to withdraw it.


William Earl Rowe: It is a statement of fact.


Charles Gavan Power: Yes, it is a statement of
fact.


Frederick Clayton Casselman: I think this is an imputation of
motives, and would ask the minister to withdraw it.


Charles Gavan Power: This is indeed an historic
occasion. Pirst, I withdraw. I must say that in a long career in this house I have rarely been called to order. And I have never been called to order in a manner which I appre-
[The Acting Chairman (Mrs. Casselman).]
ciate so much as I do in this case. I unreservedly withdraw my imputation whatever, at your request, Madam Chairman, and simply say I suggest that a discussion of this matter at the present time is, to say the least, irrelevant-which I hope will not be considered as imputing motives to my hon. friend.
Mr. de Carteret is not what might be called an ordinary big business man. Up to seven or eight years ago he was a forestry engineer employed by smaller companies, but owing to his ability he was taken into the organization of the International Paper company. He is an extremely able man, accustomed to business and to the carrying on of work in connection with business questions, rapidly, expeditiously and efficiently.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And large business too.


Charles Gavan Power: And large business. When a year ago I needed a deputy minister very badly I went to Mr. de Carteret, who had been a friend of mine for years. In years gone by he was not so closely connected with what is called big business. I went to him and begged him to come here. At first he refused because he said he had his own affairs to look after and that he was not familiar with matters connected with the air. At the urgent solicitation of the Prime Minister of Canada himself, who had checked, as other members of the cabinet had done, on the qualifications of Mr. de Carteret, Mr. de Carteret consented to come here at his own expense, paying every cent of his hotel and travelling expenses, at no cost to the government. Since that time he has worked night and day. He has spare time. Is there any man in this house who has not spare time, who sometimes does not play golf, who sometimes does not go fishing, who sometimes does not play bridge? Well, during that time, instead of doing that, Mr. de Carteret looks after the details of the business. It so happens that he is president, vice-president or director of some company in which there are the makings of a labour dispute. I do not know the details about it but I still do not think that they should be brought up on these estimates. I still do not think that should be a reason for attacking him personally. Anyone who knows him or has had business dealings with him knows that Mr. de Carteret has come here from the highest and most patriotic motives, and if there is a dispute between labour and himself, let them fight it out between them. That is their business. In all sincerity I ask my hon. friend not to drag that dispute into these estimates when the

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whole matter of the air training scheme and the fighting of the air battles of the empire is concerned. I ask him if he really thinks that is the right thing to do. Here we are with the enemy at our gate. We are trying to get these estimates through, trying to pass a war appropriation, trying to explain to the house what we are doing in connection with the war, and our attention is being diverted by attacks on a deputy, not for any lack of efficiency in his job, but because he and my hon. friend or my hon. friend's friends do not agree on some subject which is altogether outside the matter at present under discussion. I do sincerely ask my hon. friend if we cannot drop this thing. I have no objection to his making a speech and telling me all about it, but I say to him, will you drop attacking de Carteret for the moment and let me get on with my job.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. de Carteret is in the Department of National Defence for Air and as such is a subject for discussion here. I have said that the principle is wrong of having civil servants as a gift, if you like. The Dominion of Canada should be able to pay for the services of its civil servants or those who serve it and there is no reason why we should have this state of affairs. No matter how clever a man may be there is no reason why we should be obliged to take his services. I am saying that the relation between the government and the workers in industry in this country is just as bad as it can possibly be and there should not be people in important positions in the government who are influencing its policy. That is not a good thing.


Charles Gavan Power: He does not influence the
policy of the government. He might influence the policy of the department but he has nothing to gain. His concerns are not interested in anything the department of air does.


Mr. COLDWELL:: In my opinion the point made by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) is well taken. In acquiring the services of big business men who still retain their connection with their private businesses the government is making a grave mistake. Whether the point is well taken or not, the policy is a mistake.


Charles Gavan Power: That is a matter of fair
discussion.


Major James William Coldwell: I will not argue it
further. In view of the conference next week I want to reiterate, if I can assist in strengthening the hand of the minister, what I said the dlay before yesterday about the Royal Air Force schools in this country and the treatment the boys are getting in the matter of
food. Since then I have heard further regarding that situation and I urge upon the minister that he endeavour next week to obtain control for this dominion of the schools that are being established here. I think the Prime Minister was on sound ground years ago when he took the stand that if schools were to be established in Canada they ought to be Canadian schools. The other afternoon the minister stated! that he trained here pilots and other members of air crew and air force personnel and that when they went to Britain they were no longer in Canadian squadrons but were drafted into thq various R.A.F. squadrons. If that is what is done in Great Britain the minister has a perfect case for asking that men coming to this country should be under the control of our own department during their period of training. If that is not granted, the minister has a much better case for asking that the boys who go from this country be retained in Canadian units, under the direction of course of the supreme command, and utilizable for any service that may be required in connection with the war effort. None the less there should be Canadian squadrons overseas controlled by Canadian officers and directed jointly of course by the grand strategy of the united nations. Supervision of training schools is quite a different problem. That is the feeling of a number of members of this house. We do not like the present situation. We should much prefer that Canadian boys, who after all come from a different environment, should be with their friends when they go overseas. The environment abroad is different; they meet young men coming from another environment that is strange to them, and1 therefore they are not as happy as they might be. I have reason for emphasizing this particular point. We of this group wholly agree with the point of view that so far as possible our boys overseas should be retained in their own Canadian units, flying together, working together and acting together generally. Never mind who pays them. My hon. friend very rightly says "and paid for." After all, I think the British people understand) pretty well that Canada is paying handsomely for her part in this war. The substantial gifts we have made to Great Britain of our own free will are greatly appreciated by the British people, but that does not mean we should forget that a few people there still regard us as colonials. This is a self-governing dominion, and as such it ought to control its own nationals where-ever they may be.

War Appropriation

Air Services


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: I wish to bring to the attention of the minister and the committee certain information tabled on May 13 when I received answers to the following questions as recorded at page 2385 of Hansard:
1. On what date was the National Steel Car Corporation at Malton authorized to proceed with the production of Martin bombers?
The answer was "April 26, 1941." My second question was:
Was this authorization given by the Canadian or British government authorities?
The answer was: "Canadian government authorities." I presume, from the answer the minister gave to a question I asked two days ago, that that contract would be authorized or requisitioned from his department. The third question was:
On what date was this project abandoned?
To which the answer was given:
Advance notice of cancellation was given on November 26, 1941.
I call attention to the fact that that was eight months after the project was authorized. The answer continues:
Final cancellation was given on December 29, 1941.
A full nine months after the beginning of the undertaking.
The next question was:
How many man hours of time were spent on this project?
I am surprised at the answer to this question, in view of the assurance given us by the Minister of National War Services some days ago that the committee investigating war expenditures last year was satisfied with the checks provided in this matter. The answer is:
An audit has not yet been made on this project-
-although that was completed five months ago-
-and man hours have not been determined.
My own information from the plant is that as many as 500 or 600 men were engaged on that project for the eight or nine months. The fifth question was:
What was the total public expenditure on this undertaking?
The answer is:
The total expenditure on this project is $781,907.
There is then an explanation that some of this expenditure will be recovered by using material bought for this project on a later

project on which this company is engaged, and also by sale of jigs and tools that were prepared for this work. The next question is:
What were the financial arrangements with the above mentioned company for this undertaking ?
The answer was:
The contract placed by the department with the National Steel Car Corporation was a target price contract.
The next question was:
How many Martin bombers were there produced ?
The answer was none. The next question was "Why was the project abandoned?" And the answer:
The manufacture of the Martin B-26 in Canada was abandoned because it developed-
That is eight or nine months after the project had been under way.
-that a very substantial amount of reengineering had to be done before the plan would be satisfactory-involving perhaps six months' delay.
In view of the fact that the British government was pressing for another type of bomber and that this particular type could be obtained in the United States in less time than it took to produce it in Canada, the plan was changed.
I think the people of this country are entitled to know why it required eight or nine months to discover that a certain process of reengineering was required on this project, after well over three-quarters of a million dollars had been spent. Here you had hundreds of men working and this expenditure made at a time when the planes were needed. The minister should give the committee some further explanation. Nothing caused more distrust in the vicinity of greater Toronto of the ability of the government to produce in our factories the things needed in our war effort than the outcome of this experiment. These workers were all working in the greater Toronto area, and everyone was asking: Why is it that the government has to engage hundreds of men for eight or nine months on a project and then abandon it? When I visited this plant a couple of months after they had ceased production of this particular aircraft, the jigs which had been prepared for the work were lying all around outside. Engineers of the plant told me that these jigs were absolutely valueless for the production of any other plane. Would the minister enlighten us on this subject?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know that I can enlighten my hon. friend very much. It was one of those deals that are often made, we started to get into production of the Martin

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bomber, and I think my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply knows more about the imperative reasons why, at the request I imagine of the British government, we switched to another type of aircraft which was perhaps more needed in view of the fact that Martin bombers were, I take it from the reply, being produced in large quantities and more efficiently in the United States.
It may also have been that the conditions of warfare had changed, that the Martin bombers were perhaps not as much required as the new type which is now being produced. It is almost impossible from day to day, with the changing conditions of warfare, to see just what should be produced at a given time. We endeavour to give forward orders as far as possible, but changes occur so frequently that it is difficult for me, close as I am to the picture in my own department, to keep up with them. Sometimes we have ordered a certain type of machine, only to find that the bugs were not out of it as yet, that it was not being produced as rapidly as we desired, or something else, and we had to turn round and produce another type. In combat and bomber machines frankly I see nothing incongruous in spending even the large amount of money mentioned by my hon. friend and then deciding to go into something else.


Joseph William Noseworthy: On a visit to this plant nearly three months after this project had been abandoned, I found that the same company was working on no less than five different contracts, in a small plant, and that they were just considering tooling up for the Lancaster bomber, three months after they had abandoned the project mentioned.


Charles Gavan Power: I would not know about the five different types being manufactured there. The Minister of Munitions and Supply probably will be more familiar with the whole transaction than I am. I shall inquire so far as the air force is concerned, and if my colleague does not give a satisfactory answer I will tell my hon. friend just why we abandoned the project, if I can do so without endangering security. I do know we abandoned it. I do know that in my estimates last year we had an amount of $40,000,000 set apart for it. We did abandon it, and I take it that this would not be done because we wanted to do so, but must have been done on the best advice of our technical officers.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Could the Minister of Munitions and Supply give us any statement about the matter?


Charles Gavan Power: Please let me finish first.


Mr. GREEN:: Toward the close of the sitting yesterday afternoon I asked the minister whether or not Canada is preparing to train parachute troops. From his reply I understood there were no plans in contemplation for that type of training.


Charles Gavan Power: No plans in my department.


Howard Charles Green: Well, the air force would have to cooperate with the army in such training.


Charles Gavan Power: I presume so.


Howard Charles Green: The minister is very progressive, perhaps more so than many of his colleagues. I think he realizes that above all things Canada must be up to date in her war preparations. The progress of the war to date lias shown quite clearly the importance of parachute troops and also of carrying troops by air. I understand that the British are training many troops for work of this type. It seems to me that Canada would be an ideal place to carry on such training.


Charles Gavan Power: I have put in requisitions for many transport planes, but it is going to be a long time before I get them.


Howard Charles Green: Surely this question is of the utmost importance to the British army-


Charles Gavan Power: It is.


Howard Charles Green: -and to the Canadian army, and it seems to me that these men, not only Canadians but also British troops, could be given this sort of training in Canada. Furthermore, we need parachute troops for our army in Canada, which may have to defend this country, and also our troops here should have training in being transported by air. Would it not be possible to take steps without further delay to get training of this type under way? Perhaps we could send some of our men to the United States in order to get this training started. It does seem to me that Canada has been slow in preparing for this modern way of fighting. There has been too much of the 1918 complex. I should like to see the minister take the lead in this matter. It involves his department; I feel that if he were to take the lead we would get results, and results along these lines are of vital importance to Canada at this time.


George Hugh Castleden: Yesterday the minister said he would find the reason for a discrepancy which existed in the figures with regard to the home war establishment-



War Appropriation-Air Services


Charles Gavan Power: I have not that information yet. At some future date I will place on Hansard answers to several questions, particularly those concerning the training schools. I hope it may be done before this appropriation bill is put through, but if it is necessary to have the training schools discussed, I will undertake to find an opportunity thereby that may be done.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Has the minister any idea as to when? Would it be two weeks from now?


Charles Gavan Power: Well, I thought it would be the following day, but yesterday morning they told me that it would take three or four days anyway. It may not be until next week.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Are parachute troops being trained in the United States?	.


Charles Gavan Power: I have no idea. I do know we have plans for transporting troops by air and possibly using gliders. The matter is now being studied, transport by gliders and transport by planes, but transport planes are the hardest things in the world to get.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Could we send some of our men to the United States to see how that training is carried on, so that we might be prepared when the time comes?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know whether or not they have that training in the United States.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY

Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, since I last reported to the house on the work of the Department of Munitions and Supply, the nature of our problems has changed considerably. I may say that up to the present time the department has placed contracts totalling in excess of $4,000,000,000, which is a sum considerably larger than the national debt of Canada prior to the outbreak of war. Our programme is by no means frozen, as is evidenced by the fact that capital assistance granted in the month of April exceeded $25,000,000. Capital assistance granted up to the present time amounts to about $380,000,000, or slightly less than 10 per cent of the total orders for munitions placed by the department.
The last time I reported, the majority of our plants were still in the process of tooling up and expanding production. To-day by far the greater part are fully tooled and staffed, and are producing at something like the maximum rate. We have had some very satisfactory results from these plants. In nearly

every case we have found that the output considerably exceeds the objective for which the plant was built. Our explosive plants are, I think, producing something like 75 per cent over the estimated plant capacity. There has been some balancing up carried on, but it has been possible to step up the production of these plants to this extent. One gun plant is producing two and a half times the guns that we anticipated it would produce, or that we provided machinery for. In general, our preliminary estimates of production have been found to be conservative, and we have very little to apologize for in that connection.
Another satisfactory feature of the programme is the cost of our products, because costs are a sure index of efficiency. We find that where a plant is in full or nearly full production, the cost of our product compares favourably with the cost either in the United States or in the United Kingdom. We find also that our quality has been all that can be desired. Frequently I have been told officially that the ammunition we sent to England, both small arms and artillery, is placed in the preferred category and is eagerly sought after. We used to mark our small arms ammunition "suitable for use by air force," but we received objections from the other services that the air force was being given preference with our ammunition. We now label it without reference to the air force in order that all three services may share in it.
I might run briefly over the operations of the department and perhaps prepare the way for any questions that hon. members may desire to ask. In the matter of production, speaking generally with reference to the criticisms that have been made in this house of management holding back production or of inefficient management, I think the executives of my department can now stream-line a plant as well as any executives in Canada. We can show you, Mr. Chairman, some of the finest organizations to be found anywhere, plants of which any manufacturer would be proud. But I must say that it is impossible to stream-line a plant and plan work for the various units while the plant is expanding rapidly.
As an example of this, I would point out that the aeroplane industry has expanded its personnel forty times since the war began. The average intake of new men into this industry exceeds 2,000 a month. These men come from the farms and the schools without any mechanical training, and it is necessary to teach them to do the work they will ultimately perform. For that reason, any one going through an aeroplane factory often sees men standing around who seem to be idle. The fact is that they are studying the work

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of the men. in front of them; they are, in fact, learners. We also have men who say that they could turn out more work, but we find that we must insist on less speed and more care at the start. I recall one very bright man who went into an aeroplane plant full of zeal and ambition but with absolutely no mechanical knowledge. The foreman stayed over him the first day to teach him one particular process, but on the second day he was placed on his own. He decided that he would show the foreman what he could do. He turned out a tremendous amount of work, but it was found that he had destroyed over $3,000 worth of stock and had produced nothing which would be useful in an aeroplane.
I could cite a number of examples of the difficulty of organizing a plant while it is being started up or where it is subject to rapid expansion. If any hon. members go through a new plant and hear stories of that kind, I hope they will assess the full picture. I hope they will ask: "Is it a plant being expanded, or is it a plant that is up to capacity and should be running efficiently?" When hon. members hear stories of men wrho can do more work, I hope my hon. friends will take that into account.
The same thing, of course, applies to plants that are retooling. It is an obvious sequence of war that the type of weapons changes from time to time. A shell that is needed to-day may not be needed to-morrow. If that is the case there is only one thing to do, tear down your tooling and tool for the type of shell that is required. The type of air fighting changes, and it is necessary to change the type of aeroplane or perhaps introduce modifications on the type being built.
We go out of the production of domestic motor cars, and it is necessary to stop production lines to change the tooling and accept a loss of time, even amounting to several months, before the production line can be turned over to the new product. Everyone who has been associated with the motor car industry is well aware of this situation. Ever since motor cars have been built by mass production, the industry has expected a lay-off of from two to three months in the summer while the production lines are being changed for the new models. The production of a new model is started over a year in advance of the first car being produced. That is incidental to mass production. It is not a situation confined to motor cars. It is true of almost every article that depends upon mass production for its output.
Just to run over the progress in the various fields, as hon. members will appreciate, our shipbuilding industry is still expanding rapidly.
We have perhaps two yards in Canada that are fully manned; the other seventeen yards are still in progress of expansion. One new large six-berth yard in Montreal laid down its first keels last week. At the present time we are launching a 10,000-ton merchant ship every four days, and we expect later on to bring this period down to three days. The yards of the great lakes and some of the yards on deep water are full-out in the production of corvettes and mine-sweepers. Those yards are still being expanded; new berths are being built, and that type of construction is getting near the objective as far as output is concerned. In the small boat field I think we have built some 14,000 small boats since the war began, and this field is fairly active, particularly in connection with the wooden Fairmile, the wooden minesweeper and smaller craft.
In the matter of aircraft, our production is now stepped up to about 400 planes a month, and we have plants that are not in production. A large plant on the west coast that is building PBY boats is just coming into production. I believe the first plane is being test-flown at about this time. We have three other plants which are working on new types of planes and which will not be in production for some months. The plants that have been standardized on certain models and given unlimited production are beginning to step up their production to very satisfactory proportions. I may say that at the commencement the aeroplane industry was quite small, and orders for our own air force were small. The industry was then dealing direct with England and taking small orders from there. We had orders of fifty, one hundred and two hundred planes in process, and many changes in tooling were necessary. We have now reduced our production to nine types of planes, and the plants are cleaning up old orders and concentrating on one type of production for each plant with accordingly improved results. At the present time we are looking after all the requirements of the air training plan. We are building operational planes for our own air force, and we have accepted substantial orders for operational training planes from England and from the United States.
I should like to speak particularly of Federal Aircraft company. That company has been criticized severely in this house, and recently a number of newspaper and other articles have appeared reflecting on its work. I think the work of this company is more outstanding than any other item of aircraft production. The reason for starting the company, as hon. gentlemen will remember, is that at the time of Dunkirk, we suddenly received notice that

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the promised Anson planes for our air training programme could no longer be sent from England. The company was formed in July, 1940. It had no plant. All the plants at that time were loaded with orders up to their then very small capacity, and the company was told to go out on the highways and byways and find manufacturing capacity for the planes it was to build.
The company had also a big redesigning job on hand. The Anson plane was suitable for English production and designed to English standards, and it was impossible to break that plane down and have it built to English standards in the small shops of Canada. While this redesigning job was going on, numerous changes were made in the plane. Originally it had a fixed undercarriage, but the design was changed and a retractable undercarriage put in. A new type of motor was also put in the plane, and numerous other changes were made in the fittings to make the plane suitable for Canadian training requirements. That redesigning job was carried through, and the first plane was ready for flight in June, 1941. Production of the Anson has reached well over 600 planes. We planned for a certainly monthly production, and I may say that the actual production has run SO per cent over the planned production and could be speeded up more than that. We have not only filled the requirements of the Canadian air force but have accepted orders from purchasers elsewhere, and we expect that the industry which has been established by Federal Aircraft, which carries some fifty or sixty plants in all parts of Canada, will be a continuing industry for a very considerable time.


Mr. JACKMAN:: Does the minister mean after the war?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, but certainly until the end of the war.
In automotive vehicles the industry is going full-out. Over a quarter of a million vehicles have been produced and shipped abroad. I think our vehicles have been in every area of active combat. The most interesting of all the vehicles is the universal carrier. Its production has been stepped up to a very large output indeed, many times the output that was first contemplated.
In tanks, the Angus shops are running at a very uniform pace, meeting the objective that was set for that company. No week goes by, I think, when the required number of tanks is not produced. We made certain commitments on tanks and other equipment for Russia, and at the end of the first three months we were exactly even with our commitments,

having shipped on the due date every tank and every piece of equipment that had been promised.
Our other tank arsenal, which is the second largest tank arsenal on this continent, is not up to capacity. There has been delay in obtaining delivery of transmissions. That has been the main difficulty. The output of transmissions for all tanks on this continent was organized in the United States, but the manufacturers have not lived up to promises, with the result that for the last several months every transmission as it is received can be put into a tank and the tank driven away at once. If a transmission comes into the factory in the morning, it goes into a tank, which is driven out of the factory the same afternoon. All the problems connected with the design and production of tanks have been solved, and to-day it is just a matter of assembling the necessary material to bring our big tank arsenal up to its objective.


John George Diefenbaker: Any production of engines in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; the engines are not made in this country.


John George Diefenbaker: Transmissions?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nor transmissions, except
the infantry tank transmissions. They are made in this country. The Ram transmissions are not.
In the production of naval guns great progress has been made. We are making quite a list of naval guns. I think all of them are in substantial production, except a factory in Vancouver which is just getting into production.
We have had particularly good results with the production of gun mountings and the fittings that go with the gun, which are more of a mechanical problem than the gun itself. In every case our gun-mounting programme is ahead of the manufacture of the guns themselves.
We have also carried out a very considerable programme, for both our own navy and the British navy, of producing special radio equipment and accessories such as firing mechanisms for naval ships.
In the matter of field guns and small arms our programme is almost completely in production. We have one plant at Windsor making automatic guns for tanks, which is not yet in production. We intended that plant for a different type of production, but due to changing requirements overseas we had to retool, which has rather set back production. But that plant will be the last of

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our big automatic gun plants to go into production. The Inglis plant-we have expanded that again and again, and any figures I have given in the past about the production of the Bren gun, the Colt-Browning and the Boys anti-tank gun, have been greatly exceeded. Unfortunately I cannot give actual production figures because I have agreed that we shall not give even approximate figures for this type of production.
The government arsenal making rifles-Lee-Enfields-and Sten guns is getting up to capacity. It is not at capacity with respect to rifles but is stepping up at the present time at the rate of 4,000 rifles a month, and we hope to get capacity by August. In the matter of Sten guns the production is very large indeed, and is stepping up by a thousand or more each month.
As regards field artillery, the 25-pounder guns are being produced at more than fifty per cent over the rated capacity of the plant. The 3-7 anti-aircraft guns are coming into production. A substantial number of guns and mounts were shipped last month as complete and tested, and it is expected that the output will step up by geometrical progression as we go on. That is the largest and most complicated gun that we have undertaken, and the bringing of it into substantial production is a major feat of our gun programme.
The Bofors gun programme, which was delayed because of production troubles, is now swinging along very well. The one hundredth gun was produced last month; the number will be very substantially increased this month, and we expect to bring that plant up to full production about September. All present needs- certainly all needs in Canada-have been supplied, and we are now taking care of export requirements.
In the tank and anti-tank gun field, as I mentioned before, output has greatly exceeded our plans, and we are in a most comfortable position in both those supplies. We are making a very large number of bomb-throwers, several sizes, rocket-guns, and almost everything in that line, and all in very substantial quantities.
In the matter of ammunition we have forty plants at present turning out artillery ammunition, and it is being produced at the rate of millions a month. Types have changed frequently, which caused interruptions, but in general the production is well over the planned capacity.
We are also turning out aerial bombs, trench-mortar bombs and anti-tank mines in very considerable quantities.
The chemicals and explosives branch is still being expanded as requisitions for new explosives and new chemicals come to us. This has been a most satisfactory branch of the work of the department. As I said some time ago, many of our explosive plants-I believe practically all of them-are producing some 75 per cent over the original planned capacity. Our chemicals are being expanded to keep up with the increased rate of production, and we are really turning out ammunition-sufficient to do all our own shell-filling, of both small arms ammunition and artillery ammunition-and bombs, and we have a very large surplus which is shipped to the United Kingdom.
In the matter of small arms ammunition we are getting up over a billion rounds per annum. Our own arsenals, and government plants under private management have all come into production in a very satisfactory way. We are still expanding very largely in the small arms ammunition field. It seems to be one field in which Canada excels all countries. We have been pressed continually for more production and a wider variety of production. We are taking on new lines as rapidly as we can absorb them, and I think we can say that the expansion of that type of production will go on for a considerable time.
The industry and subcontract coordination branch is making steady progress. This is a most helpful branch of our department in the present situation. It is making a specialty of helping displaced industries, and remarkable results have been accomplished. I will 'not say for a minute that the branch is able to take care of all displaced industries. Many peace-time industries are not equipped to do useful war work, and these cases present a real problem. But the industry and subcontract coordination branch have done much to help to fill up the small machine-shop, and a great deal to put war work into displaced peace-time industrial plants.
The construction division is extremely active. I believe that both in the field of buildings and in that of airport construction the year 1942 will be the largest building season we have had. Each season we think the next season will see a slackening off, but the needs of our air training plan for operational airports, and for new training centres for both the military and the air force, seem to pyramid rather than to decline.
The wartime industries control board is a matter of great interest at the present time. I will follow my notes in discussing the work of that board.
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The intensification of the war has reemphasized the importance of the part played by the system of economic controls centralized and coordinated by the wartime industries control board. Within the Department of Munitions and Supply there are twelve controllers, whose duties are to ensure that the materials or services within their respective productions are forthcoming for war needs in adequate quantities. Each of these controllers is therefore endowed with wide powers appropriate to his particular function. Each controller, broadly speaking, exercises powers to do two things: first, to see that the necessary productive facilities are expanded as far as possible; second, to limit and, where necessary, to prohibit production for civilian use in the case of those materials which are scarce in relation to war and essential demands.
I might say that the difference between the industries control board in my department and the wartime prices and trade board in the Department of Finance is that my controllers interest themselves only in materials and supplies which are urgently required for war, whereas the other board deals with peacetime commodities.
It will be readily realized, however, that if the difficult and complex task of diverting production away from civilian toward war use is to be accomplished in an effective, orderly manner and without unnecessary dislocation, a high degree of coordination of policy and procedure is necessary. The necessity of such coordination and control is the more apparent now that we have reached the stage that restrictions on production for civilian purposes must in many instances be severe, and when in some cases outright prohibitions are necessary.
Accordingly, since its reconstitution in August, 1941, the wartime industries control board has existed to promote coordination and integration of the functions of the twelve controllers and also to provide a centralized point of contact between the control agencies of this department and other governmental agencies dealing with related problems.
The board is structurally designed to facilitate such coordination. It is composed of the chairman, who is also the director-general of the priorities branch of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and twelve controllers; the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board and the president of the commodity prices stabilization corporation.
No order of an individual controller having general application is valid until it receives the consideration and signed approval of the chairman of the board, and if the order involves the imposition of a production quota

the minister's signature is also required. Any order involving price fixing requires in addition the signed concurrence of the chairman of the wartime prices and trade board.
The board holds regular meetings for the formulation of control policy and for the consideration of problems of individual controllers in relation thereto. In addition, an opportunity for day-to-day discussion and exchange of information is provided through the office of the chairman and through the board's secretariat. Liaison with the wartime prices and trade board is particularly close since the chairman of each board sits as a member of the other board and because action by controllers with respect to price requires the concurrence of the wartime prices and trade board.
Recently, with a view to avoiding duplication of administrative machinery, a working arrangement has been concluded whereby wartime industries control board controllers have agreed to extend their spheres of interest and to perform additional duties as administrators for the wartime prices and trade board. Also, with a view to avoiding duplication, the wartime prices and trade board has made available to the wartime industries control board the use of its regional office facilities and its investigatory and policing organizations.
As custodians of materials required for the war programme, the wartime industries control board is directly interested in the matter of exports. Accordingly, the chairman of the board as well as the metals controller sit as members of the advisory committee on export control, and the board is also directly represented on the executive subcommittee of that body. In like manner the board has direct representation on the shipping priorities committee, which committee is concerned with the provision of shipping space for the importation of essential materials into Canada. Contact with other governmental agencies is maintained on a less formal basis, but is nonetheless effective. In addition, the board may and does make recommendations to its minister from time to time with regard to specific problems as they may arise.
I do not propose to review all the individual orders issued by the controllers and approved by the chairman of the board since the board's inception. There have been over 100 of them. It may, however, be of interest, as an indication of the manner in which the board is dealing with the problems that confront it, if I review briefly the high lights of recent actions taken primarily as a result of the conditions created by the extension of the war into the Pacific.

War Appropriation-Supplies
Immediately upon the outbreak of hostilities in this new theatre of war, the board met with a view to effecting such additional control measures as appeared necessary by reason of the threat to our Pacific supply lines. Immediate action was, of course, taken to conserve vital supplies of rubber. As an initial temporary measure an order was issued by the controller of supplies freezing dealers' stocks of tires and tubes and suspending the processing of raw rubber generally for other than defence or munitions projects. Acting concurrently, the motor vehicle controller prohibited the supplying of spare tires and tubes as motor vehicle equipment. Subsequently the processing of rubber has been permitted for the time being only in the case of an extremely restricted list of clearly essential uses. The use of crude rubber for civilian purposes has been so restricted that the volume so conserved has been reduced by over 70 per cent in the past two months. I may say that very much less than 30 per cent is being used for civilian purposes at the present time.
The manufacture of tires for passenger automobiles was discontinued on December 12 last. The sale of new tires and tubes to the general public has been prohibited completely and may be made only in the case of a very much restricted eligible list of essential public services, and only then under permit and on delivery by the purchaser of a used tire or tube, as the case may be, for which no allowance or payment may be made.	-
Supplies of used tubes and tires have also been brought under control by establishing appropriate restrictions and requirements of proof of necessity.
While on the subject of rubber, I should mention two noteworthy developments on the supply side. With the cooperation of the wartime industries control board, arrangements have been made for the establishment of a governmental corporation known as Tolymer corporation to produce synthetic rubber in Canada. Work is under way on the preliminary plans and specifications, and it is expected that production will begin before the end of 1943. When the plants are working at capacity, the output will approximate 27,000 tons a year.
I should be careful to point out that this synthetic production will in no way relieve the civilian shortage, since every last ounce of the synthetic product will be earmarked for war purposes.
We have also set up a scrap rubber division of the Department of Munitions and Supply, which will devote its entire time to the collection of scrap rubber throughout Canada.
Arrangements have been made for the government to absorb freight charges in connection with collection so that the price paid for scrap rubber will be the same in all parts of Canada. The scrap rubber so acquired will be used for the manufacture of reclaimed rubber which, in turn, will be employed in the manufacture of war materials and vitally necessary civilian articles.
The automotive industry normally consumes large quantities of steel, rubber and oil, as well as other essential materials. Hence production of passenger automobiles for civilian use has ceased completed as of April 1. This has meant that the total number of passenger cars produced in Canada in 1942 for civilian use will be approximately 7,900 units compared with approximately 81,700 units in 1941 and 94,633 in 1940. Out of the automobiles completed from parts already fabricated, the motor vehicle controller is establishing a bank or reserve supply of some 4,000 cars to be drawn upon only for essential use as occasion may arise in future. As from March 14 the production of motor trucks for other than defence and munitions purposes has been prohibited except under permit from the motor vehicle controller. The transit controller has also issued an order banning the operation of buses for sightseeing tours and prohibiting all charter trips of a non-essential nature except those which may be directly identified with the war programme.
With regard to gasoline, it is, I think, fortunate that the basis of a civilian rationing programme had been established prior to the extension of the war into the Pacific and the recent serious increase in tanker sinkings along the Atlantic seaboard. Organizational work in connection with the rationing plan has now been satisfactorily completed and, as hon. members know, rationing was effective as from April 1. I may say that the results to date indicate a reduction of about 40 per cent in the gasoline which we expected to have consumed in that month without rationing, which, I think, is a fairly satisfactory reduction.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Forty per cent less than the minister expected would be consumed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. In comparing it with
the month previous there must be taken into account the fact that in the months of January, February and March there was a substantial increase in use over that of the corre.-sponding months of last year. The actual decrease in April of this year compared with April of last year is 34 per cent, but taking

War Appropriation-Supplies
account of the normal increase as indicated by the first three months I think the reduction is estimated at about 43 per cent.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is civilian?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Not the army?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. That reduction is, I
think, due largely to people being careful about the manner in which they use gasoline rather than to the size of the unit, which at the moment is a fairly generous allowance.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is
another factor:	many people have not
obtained licences for all the cars they have.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In other words people are
conscious of the fact that gasoline is scarce, and they are being careful.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: What is the increase
in the first three months of this year as compared with the corresponding months of last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it is about 12 per
cent.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Is there any special
reason for that?
Mr. HOWE.:	No; just greater business
activity.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would the minister explain the shortage of gasoline?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend asked me if
that was pleasure driving or commercial. As far as civilian use is concerned it is both. It does not apply to the military, but gasoline for both commercial andl pleasure purposes must be bought through authorized pumps, and it is to consumption from those pumps that I am referring.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That 40 per cent saving would not take care of the air force?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; the air force requirements are growing, as are those of the military. That is not under the control of this department.
Hon. members are, of course, aware that there is no shortage of petroleum in the western hemisphere; the matter is wholly one of transportation. Therefore the position varies in different parts of Canada. The prairies are largely self-sufficient through the produc- [DOT] tion of the Turner valley and' importations from adjoining states. That situation is quite stable. On the Pacific coast we had a serious situation. We diverted part of our

tanker capacity so that we could look after that coast with our own tankers. There has been no serious inconvenience through losses of ships on that coast, and the position of the Pacific coast can now be said to be normal.
The position in Ontario, particularly southern Ontario, depends on a pipeline from the midwest field, and the usual supplies have been coming in by that pipeline. The pipeline has been operated to full capacity every moment for at least a year, and it is still operating at capacity. Where we are finding great difficulty is on the Atlantic seaboard and in Quebec, which is supplied from the Atlantic seaboard.


Mr. REID:: How long is the pipeline that brings in the oil from across the line?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Into Ontario. It comes from Oklahoma. I do not know the mileage. It is fed from the Oklahoma and midwest field.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It comes to Sarnia, does
it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. All of us who read the papers appreciate that the sinking of tankers on the Atlantic has been a very serious matter. Also the loss of certain oil fields in the far east has made necessary the diversion of tankers on voyages from that area. The result is there is a serious shortage of tankers. The situation for the maritime provinces, Quebec and eastern Ontario is far from satisfactory. The needs of the army, navy and air force are reasonably protected, but civilian use is running on an extremely thin margin.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: In view of the shortage of oil and gasoline in the maritimes has the department taken any steps to investigate the possibility of developing very large oil shales in different parts of Nova Scotia; Pictou, Antigonish and other counties and on Cape Breton island; also Albert county in New Brunswick where there is a very big shale field?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am attempting to make a statement. Would my hon. friend be kind enough to ask me that later? I can hardly keep to the thread of my discussion and answer questions of that kind at the same time.


Mr. McIVOR:: The minister should be allowed to complete his statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The purpose of rationing is to have the gasoline situation under control, as far as the commercial and domestic field is concerned, and to be able to divide equitably among the users such gasoline as we have. I wish those who speculate about the future of the gasoline ration would keep that in mind. When it is necessary, in order to divide fairly

War Appropriation-Supplies
such gasoline as we can obtain, to reduce the amount deliverable on a coupon that will be done, but it is very bad for the morale of the people for the newspapers to be constantly forecasting cuts which are not under contemplation. When a cut in the amount issued on gasoline ration tickets is necessary it will be made immediately. There will be no forecasting; before anyone can have time to forecast what will happen to-morrow, the thing will be done. Therefore I hope that there will be less speculation about the future of the gasoline coupon. Its purpose is to divide the available gasoline fairly, and it will be used for that purpose.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There has been a cut already, has there not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Then the
newspapers are wrong.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite. The newspapers have forecast cuts in gasoline coupons many times, but there has been no cut. When there is a out it will be because there is not enough gasoline to go round, and by cutting the amount deliverable on a coupon we shall spread more fairly what is available.


Mr. STIRLING:: Have not the B category books been called in?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, but there have been certain reclassifications. In the issue of coupon books we had to scratch an organization together in short order. We called for the help of the provinces. It was cheerfully given and an attempt was made to do a good job. But the application forms for the higher categories have been reviewed to see whether the necessity was real, and we found that many people had obtained needlessly high categories. In these cases the books are being called in and proper categories issued. But that is not a change in the system; it is simply an attempt to perfect the system.


Mr. COLD WELL:: Then there is no truth
m the statement that everyone is to be placed in category A?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. If I were doing the thing again, I would do it in that way, because experience shows it would be a better way, and then, by another book, make special provision for those entitled to it. When we started with this system we did not foresee the zeal that people would show in order to get higher categories. When the books are issued for 1943, I think we shall have a much better system.


Thomas Miller Bell: There should be some system of numbering.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, and better binding. But the thing was done hurriedly. We were pioneers. We deserve some credit for that. The United States are following our system and will probably improve it, but for a pioneer system it works pretty well.
Steps have also been taken to conserve further the use of essential metals. The metals controller has prohibited the sale of pig-tin for civilian use without his permission, and has drastically restricted or prohibited the use of tin and tin alloys in certain products. The controller of supplies has taken action with respect to a long list of nonessential metal products. Production of some of these articles has been prohibited entirely, while manufacture of the remainder which possess some degree of essentiality has been materially curtailed. Further curtailments have been made in the production quotas of refrigerators and washing machines, while in the case of radios production for civilian use ceased entirely after January 31, except under permit from the controller.
Also as part of a programme aimed at the conservation of essential materials, manila hemp, sisal and kapok have been brought under the jurisdiction of the controller of supplies and appropriate conservation measures effected.
Since the end of January, the powers of the controller of construction have been enlarged to give him jurisdiction over the entire construction field with the exception of equipment, plant or buildings owned or financed by the federal government. Prior to that date, the jurisdiction of the controller did not apply to one-, two- and three-family dwellings, structures erected in connection with certain primary industries, churches, public hospitals, educational institutions or buildings financed by or under the control of any provincial government, which categories were, as of January 30, brought under his control. Under his powers as revised, in the case of any building other than a plant, all projects in excess of $5,000 must be licensed by the controller before being undertaken. In such case, the cost of construction, repairs, alterations, additions and installation of equipment, if forming part of one project must be considered together as one amount in calculating the maximum value permitted without licence. In the case of a plant, equipment to the value of $5,000 may be installed without a permit, in addition to a total value of $5,000 so allowed for construction, repairs, additions and alterations. The controller has

War Appropriation-Supplies

also been given jurisdiction over production and use of construction materials and facilities.
In this as in other areas of control, the broad powers of the controller are exercised to the end that non-essential projects involving the use of scarce materials shall be postponed for the duration of the war. This basic principle of control serves the twofold purpose of conserving materials now vitally needed for the prosecution of the war and of building up a backlog of deferred civilian projects which will, in due time, be of considerable value in helping to cushion post-[DOT] war readjustments.
The foregoing remarks will, I trust, give some indication of the structure of the wartime industries control board, and of the scope of its activities. By reason of the board's existence, control measures proposed by any one controller have the benefit of consideration from all relevant aspects; orders when issued are not at cross purposes with those of other controllers; and, finally, the whole control programme is kept in line with its basic objective, which is the effective mobilization of economic resources.
Just to hurry on and finish my statement before six o'clock, I may add that Canada is, of course, producing munitions far in excess of the requirements of our own troops or the requirements for the defence of Canada. We are shipping these munitions to every area of warfare in the world. The largest shipments are, of course, to the United Kingdom, but very large shipments are being sent to the middle east, Russia, Australia, New Zealand, India, and South Africa; and during the campaign in Greece we sent large shipments to that country. We are very large shippers to China. The first aid received by China from North America, as Doctor Soong stated in a public address some time ago, came not from the United States but from Canada. It was a very substantial shipment of Bren guns, ammunition and some items of artillery. Since that time, every month has seen sizeable shipments made to China. We were also large shippers to Singapore, Malaya, Java and the Netherlands East Indies.
It seems to me that in the munitions programme Canada is taking part in the war on a world-wide scale. The main objective for Canada is to keep the war away from Canada. That, I think, is the only protection we have for our Canadian citizens. Therefore I think shipments of arms to China is a worth-while contribution to the defence of Canada. There are several hundred million Chinese people. For six or seven years they have been putting up a-splendid resistance to better equipped and 
better trained Japanese forces; and, properly armed, China is in a position to play a very important part in the future of this war. Again, I think our shipments to Russia have been worth while. Here also we have a population of some 160 million people fighting a most gallant battle against better equipped and perhaps better trained troops; and anything we can do to reinforce the effort of the Russian people is another way of keeping the war from Canada. The same thing applies to India. We have been a large shipper to that country since the beginning of the war, and we are continuing to send large shipments. Here again we have a large population immediately subject to attack, and here again we are in a position to defend Canada by sending arms to the other side of the world. I am happy to say we have made substantial contributions to our sister dominions, all of which are, I think, more immediately subject to attack than is Canada. I am always delighted when ve can make substantial shipments of arms, munitions and radio devices to those countries. Therefore, while we think of Canada's munitions effort as auxiliary to Canada's armed services, in a way those munitions are going to a wider front, in that they are playing a part on every battlefield of the war, than the nature of the war thus far has made it possible for our armed services to do.
I think this concludes what I have to say by way of statement, but when we reassemble I shall be very glad to explain any points in which hon. members may be interested.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


William Earl Rowe: Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose at six o'clock the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) had just concluded a brief but rather comprehensive survey of the activities of his important department. We realize that probably at no time in the history of Canada has any department been charged with greater responsibilities than that of the Minister of Munitions and Supply at this particular time. The administration of his department involves responsibilities of tremendous dimensions and, as he has stated in his remarks, it indeed causes extensive repercussions on our whole economic system. To keep the wheels of our munitions and supply industries going is an unprecedented

War Appropriation-Supplies
challenge to our human and natural resources. However, it is with considerable alarm that one observes the tremendous financial obligations on our country that are involved.
As the minister has well said, it involves the coordination of control and the curtailment of civilian consumption. As he has stated, this is necessary if we are to wage an all-out war. The change from civilian consumption and production to war-time production is no small task. I am not going to discuss the details of the administration of his department because I realize that the minister has worked and laboured very hard. He has more than ordinary native ability; he has had long experience, and I know there are many contentious features to be met with in the administration of a department of that size. My only purpose in rising at this time is to offer such constructive help as I can to the government in order to create a better plan by which our people may play a fuller part in the gigantic task that now challenges every freedom-loving nation in the world.
If we are to justify our place in this democracy in which we live we must wage a total all-out war with all its bitter consequences. We must include in our many sacrifices the temporary surrender of personal privilege and accept more or less the regimentation of our total war necessities. Never in our country's history has our task been so clear; and, so long as our liberty stands at bay, Canada must march in war rather than stand in defence. It is agreed that the task of the Minister of Munitions and Supply to furnish all the machines, munitions and other equipment that our resources can supply as a striking force is fundamentally a responsibility of government.
As the minister has said alreadsq civilian consumption must be curtailed; indeed, civilian consumption must take what is left. The less we consume at home, the more we can fight abroad. We should not be satisfied with our war effort until we have a total output for war as high as it can be organized and a consumption of civilian goods at home as low as it can be endured. The extent to which we reach such objectives will reflect the greatness of the democratic way of life for which we fight. Amidst the blood, sweat, toil and tears that must be endured there at the present time is a glorious opportunity for this government to lead the country in reforms that will reduce inequalities of sacrifice in time of war as well as inequalities of happiness in the peace that we hope may soon follow. This cannot be achieved by merely meeting unexpected emergencies with hastily employed expediencies
It cannot be met either by a gunshot prescription of price fixing, rationing of goods, restricted sales, cramped business and high taxes.
The production of the necessary volume of munitions and supply creates subsequent problems for our whole economic system. We must have less chance and more design. Therefore, at this late date I hasten to urge the government to inaugurate a more basic war-time plan that may be more generally and universally applied to this gigantic problem. The mobilization of money as well as of men must be adopted. We have a two billion dollar vote before us now. We must find the money before we can produce the goods. Perhaps there are those who would prefer to call it conscription of wealth. However, many months ago I stated in this house that the government should have given consideration long ago to a policy of compulsory saving of a certain percentage of all the net wages and income above a reasonable living allowance. That is, above a reasonable living allowance for our people who are engaged in this great war problem.
May I, therefore, as I urge the government to take action again, be permitted to give a few reasons why I make this statement. First, I believe it would provide funds for the immediate prosecution of the war and the provision of the munitions and supply we are now discussing. Second, it would curtail as well the increasing purchasing power for nonessential civilian goods, referred to by the minister. Third, it would avoid inflation, and everybody shudders to think what inflation might do to our general economy. Fourth, it would more evenly distribute Canada's debt so that many war workers and soldiers would have, after the war, a source of income that they might not otherwise have. During the last year or two we have learned a good deal about the tendencies that are now developing.
In April last there appeared in the press a report by Mr. Spinney, chairman of the finance committee of Canada, with reference to our war loan issue. This statement announced that the final figures for the last victory loan which opened on February 16 showed that one out of 6-5 of Canada's population purchased bonds, whereas in the first victory loan in June, 1941, one out of every 12-02 bought bonds. Notwithstanding the fact that this loan was originally floated for $600,000,000 and then approached $900,000,000, this announcement is quite significant. It is indicative of the distress signal over controls already employed to check inflationary trends in our war economy.
44561-!55i
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Failure to recognize this could, to my mind, give rise to social and1 economic dislocations which, if allowed to continue, not only would impair the progress of our war eifort but might affect our whole democratic economy following the war. Increased employment coupled with Wages higher than those that prevailed prior to the war, and the huge governmental spending for armaments that we are now discussing, all create increased purchasing power at a time when the transition from peace-time to war-time economy is decreasing the supply of civilian goods which can be purchased. To meet this inflationary trend we have adopted measures of price fixing, wage and price controls, rationing and restriction of sales. All these measures, while they have in themselves contributed materially to curtail inflationary trends, do not measure up to the gigantic problem that is facing this country at the present time, which I fear is all too often lost sight of.
By means of increased taxation the government has endeavoured to divert as much as possible of the excess purchasing power created by huge government expenditures in almost every field of endeavour as a result of the war.
Notwithstanding the increased taxation and the prices and wage controls exercised by the government, there has been a very substantial increase in the real wages earned by Canadians since war began.
It would appear, Mr. Chairman, that the large group which has received large increases in purchasing power as a result of the war is not being effectively reached by our bond issues or our various war savings campaigns. A continuation of this situation is most dangerous to our economy because, unless some action is taken to reduce still further the increased purchasing power now in the hands of would-be purchasers, the .inflationary forces so much feared will become a reality. As time passes and our war effort progresses, the amount of consumer available goods will diminish, and at the same time government spending will be increasing tremendously.
The volume of goods for civilian consumption is at the present time below the 1933 level, whereas the national income this year is over twice the income level of 1933, due in no small degree to our production of munitions and supplies.
It is obvious that notwithstanding the measures of price freezing and wage control already
I Mr. Rowe.]
employed, further restrictions on the volume of purchasing power must be initiated if inflation is to be avoided.
The ever-widening gap between increased purchasing power in the hands of the public and the ever-diminishing supplies of consumer goods will have to be met by more effective measures. This can be approached either by increased taxes or compulsory savings, or by a combination of both; but some aggressive action must be taken to control the excess consumer purchasing power created by our war-time economy.
No one should expect to gain from the war in increased net returns from profits, dividends, rents, wages or prices. There can be little disagreement with this principle, which has been recognized in our excess profits tax policy. The wage earner or the business man, enjoying comparative safety in Canada, who may reluctantly pay new taxes and hesitate to lend his savings should pause and consider the many who are cheerfully offering their lives and hopes, without financial gain, to save this critical day. That everyone should pay something toward the cost of the war is, I believe, a principle acceptable to the Canadian people, because all should be willing to make their contribution toward bringing this conflict to a speedy and successful conclusion.
Excepting those whose standard of living is already at a low figure, I believe that every man, woman or child in Canada who has an income would willingly pay 5 to 10 per cent of it as a war contribution in the form of compulsory savings withheld at the source.
This money would then be made available to the government for the prosecution of the war and would be repayable to the individual in instalments during the period of rehabilitation that will follow the war.
The latest figures I have been able to secure from the bureau of statistics on the distribution of the national income cover the years from 1930 only up to the year 1938, but even these are quite significant. I shall not weary the committee by reading this table but would ask permission to put it on Hansard. I will cite only the figures for 1930. In that year salaries and wages amounted to 59-6 per cent of the total national income; other labour income, 2-2 per cent; net dividends, 4-6 per cent; net interest, 4-4 per cent; withdrawals, 33-5 per cent; net rentals and mortgage interest, 5 per cent. The figures for the succeeding years show a similar range. The complete table is as follows:

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Percentages of National Income
Year	Salaries and wages	Other labour income	. ^et dividends	Net interest	Withdrawals	Net rentals and mortgage interestper cent	per cent	per cent	per cent	per cent	per cent1930	
59-6	2-2	4-6	4-4	23'5	5-71931	
58-6	3-2	4-7	5-0	22-2	6-31932	
58-2	4-5	3-7	6-5	21-4	5-71933	
57-3	5-4	3-3	7-2	21-8	5-01934	
58-0	6-2	3-3	6-9	21-4	4-21935	
58-1	6-1	3-6	6-6	21-2	4-41936	
58-7	5-6	3-6	6-0	21-2	4*91937	
59-7	5-3	3-8	5-4	20-9	4-91938	
59-4	4-8	3-9	5-4	21-1	5-4
These figures show that salaries and wages accounted for 59-4 per cent of the national income in 1938. This figure of 59-4 per cent, and other labour income of 4-8 per cent, combined with the withdrawals, which constitute largely the income of farmers, merchants, distributors, et cetera, withdrawn from their business as personal expenses and listed as 21T per cent, in all totals 85-3 per cent. This means that the percentage of the national income derived from the so-called "rich" in dividends, interest, rents, and mortgages combined, accounted for only 14-7 per cent of the total national income in 1938.
While recent figures are not available, it is reasonable to assume that under our present accelerated war economy, coupled with the restrictions applied to control rents, dividends, et cetera, the percentage of the national income in the class of earned income is to-day a higher percentage than at any previous time in our history.
Any effort to reduce the purchasing power in the hands of the people must be directed toward where the national income is greatest, because the heart of any anti-inflation policy is the restriction of spending, particularly in non-essential consumer goods, by the great majority of our people, as well as by the 15 per cent of the few so-called "rich".
Recognition of this fact is evident by the campaign to induce the Canadian people to purchase war savings certificates. Doubtless there are a great many wage and salary earners who are not contributing in any measure to this effort, and it is unlikely that the voluntary appeal can achieve much greater results than the national objective of ten million dollars a month.
In war time compulsion is often a necessary step. While compulsion may be temporarily distasteful to a democratic people, it is necessary if a democratic people are to
succeed against a totalitarian group of nations where everything in the interest of the state is done by compulsion.
I would suggest to the government that consideration be given at once to the adoption of a policy of compulsory savings as an essential and integral part of our war supply policy.
This is important, not alone because of the revenue that would be made available for the immediate prosecution of the war, but as well in view of the anti-inflationary effect such a measure would have on our entire war economy. The principle of voluntary choice in the purchase of war savings certificates should be retained; indeed, the publicity campaign should be accelerated, so that every dollar that can be saved over and above what may be involved in a compulsory savings plan may be made a fighting dollar. The vital war obligation of the hour demands, however, that this economic necessity must not be left to chance or voluntary choice alone.
Our present voluntary plan should accordingly be supplemented by a general loan levy, such as I have proposed, not only to increase the government fighting loans for to-day, but to equalize the war savings of our people for to-morrow. We have endeavoured to control inflationary trends by measures of price and wage controls, but these constitute only half-measures to cure inflation, and do nothing to prevent the disease itself. Unless compulsion is exercised to curtail this increasing tide of purchasing power, it is doubtful that the tremendous problems confronting us can be controlled. I would suggest to the government that legislation be introduced at this session of parliament to make operative by July 1 next a policy of compulsory savings, deductible at the source of income and repayable in instalments after the war.
War Appropriation-Supplies

While such a measure would entail considerable administrative detail work, the larger part of this work could be done by the employer in a manner similar to the national defence tax deductions now made at the source. The advantages of such a policy would be many.
First, this would constitute a definite antiinflation step because the increased purchasing power would be withheld at the source. Second, the amount withheld would be in the form of non-transferable savings, repayable after the war. Third, repayments could be made in instalments during the period of rehabilitation when the war wage-earner might be unemployed and in need of state assistance. Furthermore, such a policy would give the wage-earner a certain security for the future, rather than permitting a limited few to hold the bonds of Canada's increased debt.
To make savings a compulsory deduction from eveiy source of earned income in specific percentages would have the effect of making everybody contribute something for the prosecution of the war. The money raised would, through compulsory savings, be available to the government and would take the place of money loaned from chartered banks. This is important because it would place as much as possible of the federal debt in the hands of the people outside the chartered banks. A payroll deduction plan would assure a steady flow of funds for the prosecution of the war; it would cut down consumer spending, and, in the final analysis, it is the soundest kind of savings plan for the individual. The withholding of income at the source would assist in shifting our material and human resources to military uses without creating an excessive demand for non-essential civilian goods. It would mean the purchase of savings certificates from income rather than from accumulated savings in the banks as has been the practice in the past. The purchase of savings certificates from income rather than from accumulated savings would leave more money for the banks to purchase government bonds if the need should arise. It would provide the best means of building up national security for the element of our people most likely to need assistance during the post-war period of adjustment which must be anticipated.
I realize the problems of the government. I have endeavoured to give constructive assistance to the minister and to the government in the heavy task that is theirs at this time. However, as I conclude may I be permitted to warn the government of certain dangers in the trends that are being established by the expediencies with which emergencies are being met, and have to be met, from day to day.
[Mr. Rowe.l
Since before the fall of the Roman empire the lesson has been plain that economic liberty and civil liberty stand or fall together. We must, therefore, preserve as much freedom of choice for the individual consumer as it is possible to preserve in our way of life.
Universal price fixing and rationing, and all these regulations of a totalitarian and bureaucratic nature which we are now developing as expediencies to meet these emergencies, are to no small extent a product of totalitarianism itself; but that is not so in so far as Canada is concerned, and we do not want them to be the introduction to totalitarianism. I do not believe that we as a people who are fighting for democratic freedom should let a totalitarian system take root so deeply in this country that it will eventually destroy democratic freedom itself.
Even if such uncertain schemes were successful enough to control consumption completely, as the Minister of Munitions and Supply has indicated is his desire, so that a substantial fraction of our earned incomes could not be spent, the result would not be different-only more extravagant than if the incomes had been deferred from the outset, as I have suggested.
Accordingly, with a more limited purchasing power that would be brought about by such a policy, more free choice could be left with the individual. It would not be necessary for the government to ask the housewife to be a detective watching over her neighbour's consumption and purchases of her daily bread. In other words, it would tend to enable us to maintain through this crisis those basic principles that have enabled freedom of enterprise and individual initiative to give life and vigour to our democratic progress.
I urge the government in all fairness to give careful consideration to what, to my mind, is a basic essential in this war, a war-time plan which we have not yet had. It is all very well to organize an industry, all very well to get high-class dollar-a-year men here to carry on an industry, but we must find ways and means to maintain that industry. As the minister well said this afternoon, part of his duty is to mobilize all the great natural resources of this country, but if we are to mobilize them soundly I believe we had better start at the root of the trouble and meet these realities. Then we shall have a more effective way of financing the war and a sounder way of meeting after-the-war problems.


John George Diefenbaker: I do not intend to follow the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe) in the argument he has advanced this evening, but I believe the ideas which he has placed before the committee merit the most serious consideration of the government.

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My purpose in saying a few words at this time is generally to open the subject of munitions and supply with a view to obtaining some information from the minister regarding his department.
At the outset I commend him for the advances which have taken place during the past year. Munitions from Canada have found their way to the battlefields of China and Russia, and, as he says, to every allied front in the world. This afternoon he uttered one thought which I wish were understood all over this dominion, namely, that our duty as a country to-day is not to await the coming of the enemy to our gates but to see to it, as a nation and a parliament, that the enemy is kept from our gates. He has related some of the actions taken by the government and some of the drastic changes which have occurred.
The hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe has mentioned the necessity of a curtailment of civilian purchases. I realize that there has been an expansion in munitions production since the war, that to-day 600,000 men and women are engaged- in war production, and that about one million people are employed now who were not employed at the outbreak of the war. But one significant matter which must not be lost sight of is that we have 337,000 men and women in industry, supplying civilian requirements and wants, in addition to those who were so employed at the outbreak of war.
He told of the curtailments which were necessary to preserve rubber and gasoline. I could understand that there might be some who would raise objection thereto, but I have not yet heard of them. The people of Canada are ready for curtailments; they are ready to accept drastic reductions in their way of living; they are ready to make sacrifices; but they demand a lead on the part of the government. I believe that the attitude of the people to-day is that it is time for Canada to get tough. It is time to do things we have not done before, to the end that our efforts, our maximum efforts,- shall be canalized or centralized into the war effort. In connection with aeroplane production-and that is what I will deal with in the main this evening-we should consider the question of immediate expansion. I will not go into a survey of what the minister has said, or an analysis of his speech. Before doing so, I shall wait until to-morrow when I shall have had an opportunity of reading in detail what he said. Let me point out, however, that if he is optimistic for 1942 and 1943, he was just as optimistic in 1940 and 1941, and yet he has to come to-day before
this committee and say that some of the promises he then made were not justified by subsequent developments.


Clarence Decatur Howe: When did I say that?


John George Diefenbaker: I listened to-day to what the minister said. He said, "I cannot say we did as well as we had expected."


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does the hon. member think he can find that in my speech?


John George Diefenbaker: If the minister did not say it, at any rate that is what I understood him to say; and it is not the first time he has said that something he had in fact said had been misinterpreted. I ask him this question: Is it not about time for him, speaking about the expansion that has taken place in so far as assistance to industry is concerned -almost 400 million dollars-to tell the house , and the country what the intention of the government is in regard to the assistance that has been given to industries which have been established? What does the government intend to do therewith after the war? What is the plan? In 1940 he announced in this house that the government had a plan with respect to the disposal of these industries, but as yet no explanation has been given along that line.
The opposition, desirous as it is to assist in the war effort, has made suggestions which have been adopted. The suggestions leading to many contributions to the war effort which the minister boasts about to-day originated in many instances on this side of the house. He spoke to-day about the production of tanks. Well, I look back two years ago and recall the ridicule that was heaped upon the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce) when he first suggested it. The minister told to-day about the shipbuilding programme and the development of the industry in this dominion. I look back to a time less than a year ago, and I remember the scorn that was poured upon the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) and the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) whenever they endeavoured to suggest that something along that line should be done.
While to-day a number of aeroplanes are being assembled in Canada, is it not about time that some progress be made in the production of engines for aeroplanes and parts, in order that there may be complete assembly in this country? Two years ago, if I remember rightly, he said that such a scheme would take about two years. It is about time we started in that direction. A year ago, six months ago, the minister said, when the hon. member for Cumberland asked that something be done toward the production of wooden ships, that it
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could not be done. He ridiculed the arguments in that behalf of the hon. member. The other day the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services (Mr. Macdonald) announced that wooden ships were being built and that a very extensive programme had been undertaken in that regard.
Our attitude is this. We as an opposition believe that we have two duties to perform. One is to make suggestions to the government with a view to the creation of public opinion and to spurring on the government to action along various lines. Proud as the minister is of the record that has been achieved by his department, there is room for a good deal of improvement. He speaks of the fact that aeroplane factories have been expanded some two hundred times their previous extent. I suggest to him that some-[DOT] thing should be done to prevent hold-ups in aeroplane factories in this country to-day, hold-ups such as were referred to yesterday by the member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol), who contended that there were delays of three months or more in one factory in the production of Hurricanes. Surely we have arrived at a point when delays like that should not be tolerated unless they are due to the fact that there is a shortage of steel and materials; and if there is a shortage of steel, is it not time to stop unnecessary building for civilian purposes in Canada?
Recently I asked a question in this house as to how much construction had been gone ahead with since construction control had been adopted. On February 23 I asked this question:
How many licences have been granted for the erection of buildings other than those required for war industry since construction control has been adopted?
The answer was that there were 3,150 licences.
Records covering do not differentiate between war and non-war industries. A clear line of demarcation is not possible.
Then I asked;:
What is the total amount in value of the steel that went into such buildings?
The answer is that the information is not available. Why the necessity for a permit unless it is to control the expenditure of building materials so that they will not be used unfairly and unnecessarily to the detriment of our war effort? Did the minister give a reasonable answer, an entirely frank answer, when he said he had no such information? H there is one thing we on this side of the house intend to demand it is this: Circumscribed only by the necessities and
[Mr. Diefenbaker.l
exigencies of war, when we ask a question we have a right to a fair and honest answer to that question. Let me tell you this-


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. It is not permissible under the rules of the house to suggest, by implication or otherwise, that any statement by a minister of the crown or any member of the house is lacking in honesty or frankness.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I
bow to your ruling; I say, an incomplete answer. Some time ago, for some reason or another, it became necessaiy for the Minister of Munitions and Supply to appoint a man to increase morale in aeroplane production.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I appointed no such man.


John George Diefenbaker: All right. The
minister has certainly not arrived at the point where appointments made under his department are not made by him, he accepting responsibility before parliament. Surely the minister does not suggest that when an appointment is made in his department and the public money of Canada is being expended in connection with that appointment, he did not make it. On May 6, 1942, I asked certain questions in regard to Mr. E. G. Hirst of Toronto, and I would call the attention of the committee to the answers given. To say the very best for these answers, they were entirely incomplete. Here are the questions:
1.	Has E. G. Hirst of Toronto been appointed to organize and conduct a morale building campaign in aircraft and allied industries?
The answer is:
Yes, in the aircraft industry.
The minister being in charge of that department, I presume he accepts responsibility for the appointment.
2.	If so, when was he appointed?
The answer is:
December 20, 1941.
The next question is:
3.	By whom was he appointed?	[DOT]
The answer is:
Director-General, Aircraft Production Branch, Department of Munitions and Supply.
An official, one of the controllers referred to this afternoon by the minister.
4.	In what business was he previously
engaged?
The answer is:
Might Directories Limited.
He is still vice-president of Might Directories Limited.

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Then the next question:
6.	What salary, honorarium, allowance or other remuneration, is paid to him by the government?
The answer is:
None.
That is very definite; no allowance, no honorarium, no payment is made to this man. Then the next question, so that there would be no doubt about it, was:
7.	If no remuneration is paid to him by the government, by what means is he being compensated for his services?
The answer is categorical and clear:
He is receiving no compensation for his services.
Nothing could be more definite than that. Hon. members who ask questions have a right to an answer which is more complete than that, when the facts definitely establish that he was being paid, and not so indirectly either. The unequivocal answer of the Minister of Munitions and Supply was "He is receiving no compensation for his services" -no salary, honorarium, allowance or other remuneration.
Then, because that did not seem to fit the facts that were known, production of certain documents was asked, and the production was made to this house yesterday. The motion that was passed reads:
For a copy of all letters, memoranda, or other documents addressed by the director-general of aircraft production, or any official of the aircraft production branch, and directed to any official of an aircraft industry or company engaged in whole or in part in the production of aircraft or parts thereof, with reference to the appointment of E. G. Hirst of Toronto ....
Then the next material part is:
. . . and in particular with reference to the manner in which his out-of-pocket expenses for travelling, organizing and office assistance are to be paid.
That was perfectly clear. It required production of the letters. I shall now read the letter signed by the director-general of aircraft production which was sent to a large number of aircraft companies, I would say some twenty in number:
December 20, 1941.
Mr. E. G. Hirst of Toronto has just undertaken the responsibility of organizing and conducting a morale-building campaign m the aircraft and allied industries through the year 1942, and I bespeak your whole-hearted cooperation for him in making this campaign an outstanding success.	.
Mr. Hirst will act as chairman of a dominionwide committee and will probably associate local committees in each community where work of this character is to be carried out.
It is estimated that the work will involve Mr. Hirst being absent from his own business at least three-quarters of his time, and his volume is therefore bound to suffer.
I have pointed out that his position is vice-president of Might Directories of Toronto.
If you can, therefore, place with Mr. Hirst your printing account for the year, it should go a long way toward maintaining sufficient volume in his own business, so that he will not have to worry, and I would appreciate your sympathetic and generous consideration of his interest in this connection, it being understood, of course, that any business _ sp placed with him will be on a strictly competitive basis.
I ask you, what business has a department of government to call upon private manufacturers to give their printing to a private individual, whether on a competitive basis or otherwise?
But that is not all.
In order to cover his out-of-pocket expenses for travelling, organizing and such office assistance as is required I have put your firm down for the amount noted at the foot of this letter.
Some got put down for $500, many others for $250. There are eight put down for $500 and the rest to make up $9,000 at $250 each.
Will you please send your cheque for this amount to Mr. P. C. Garratt, Managing Director, de Havilland Aircraft of Canada, Ltd., Postal Station L, Toronto. Mr. Garratt has kindly consented to act as honorary treasurer of the dominion committee. All Mr. Hirst's bills will be paid on behalf of the industry only through Mr. Garratt.
Authorizing a private individual to go out in order to build up morale for which services he is to be paid by donations from the different aircraft manufacturers, and in addition to which he is to get their printing "upon a competitive basis," is bad enough. But the next paragraph is the one to which I raise the most strenuous objection, and which in my opinion shows whether or not the answer given in this house on May 6 was in fact correct:
This sum is, by arrangement with treasury, chargeable to overhead in connection with your aircraft contracts.
The companies were to pay out $500 or $250, as the case may be, and they were to give their printing to him "on a competitive basis"; but they are not to be out anything on the contributions made; the people of Canada are going to pay it. And these men were to conceal payments under "overhead." Why the necessity to cover it up? Why not appoint Mr. Hirst in charge of this very commendable work as director of morale and put him on a salary? But no; it is not done in that way. The aeroplane companies are
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told to pad up or add up the amount in their overhead and to charge it to the treasury of Canada.
The letter goes on:
Most of you will realize that the work which Mr. Hirst is now taking over has, in the past, necessitated a considerable portion of my time which should be devoted to other matters. I am sure that with someone now able to give practically full time to this work, this important phase of personnel relations will receive an impetus that will be felt throughout the entire industry, and I know that I can count on you to give Mr. Hirst every possible help and assistance.
Let each of us individually and all of us collectively determine that 1942 is going to produce results in the aircraft field that will literally amaze this country.
Cordially yours,
_	Ralph R. Bell,
Director-General of Aircraft Production.
There is a letter from "Phil"; it does not say who he is, but evidently the managing director of the de Havilland Aircraft of Canada Limited. It is dated January 3, 1942, addressed to Mr. Bell. He says:
In connection with the Morale-Building Campaign and the activities of Mr. E. G. Hirst!
I would like a little bit clearer outline of the activities, if that is at all possible, just in order that as far as I am concerned I will not be deviating from your policy.
One question I have been asked so far is who the officers might be, if I am the honorary treasurer.
Up to the present time about $4,000 have tumbled into the coffers and Mr. Hirst has engaged an office at $40 a month, is procuring furniture, and I have advanced him $150 on account of expenses. I presume this is all in order and that I am just to comply with whatever requests Mr. Hirst makes.
Then there is a letter to Mr. Garratt directing him:
You will pay out to Mr. E. G. Hirst money on his requisitions.
Why was this house and this committee not given the information when it asked for it on May 6? Why was it necessary to conceal from the people the fact that Mr. Hirst's $9,000 expense account was coming out of the treasury of Canada? I should like the minister to explain this. I can understand, as the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe said, that in the interests of the war effort it may be necessary to depart from some of the ordinary democratic principles. It is necessary to set up controllers; but I do insist that whoever is set up as a controller shall remain responsible to parliament. I do insist that no controller whose salary is concealed in the overhead expenses of those producing aircraft or other products shall draw money from the coffers of the people of Canada. I am going to ask the minister. IMr. Diefenbaker.J
when he explains the circumstances in connection with this matter, whether it is or is not a fact that there are others in the position of Mr. Hirst. The reason why I ask that question is this. If the opposition had accepted the answers that were given on May 6, no one in this house or in this country ever would have known that Mr. Hirst was drawing $9,000 as expenses. It all would have been concealed. The only thing known about him wovdd have been that he was a man who was giving ^ his services to the high purpose of increasing and extending aircraft production in Canada. I think parliament has a right to be assured that steps such as this, which constitute an advance toward a hidden bureaucracy, no longer will be tolerated; and I ask the minister to give the assurance that answers such as were given on May 6, 1942, no longer will be permitted, for in my opinion answers such as those fail to reveal the true circumstances and are an affront to parliament itself. If we cannot ask for information, without the necessity of having everything at hand to check up and see whether it is correct, as an opposition we only play act; we can only go on fishing expeditions, depending on the government to give us answers that are correct. Carry on that sort of thing very long, Mr. Chairman, and we will need a morale minister in this government to convince the people of Canada that all answers being given are in accordance with the facts.
I ask why it was necessary to go beyond the ranks of the civil service, to hunt up a man whose qualifications were that the published a directory, in order to build up morale in Canada? We have a Department of National War Services under which we have all the various branches dealing with public information, radio and all those other organizations that furnish information, whose purpose is to instil and maintain morale among our people. Why was it necessary to go outside a department of government to secure the services of a man whose qualifications, according to the record, do not appear to be such as would contribute much to. morale in the aircraft industry? Why was it necessary for a department of government to answer that this man was not receiving any salary, that he was receiving no emolument or consideration whatsoever? I ask the minister to give this house and the country a frank explanation in regard to this most unusual case.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, Mr. Chairman, my
lion, friend has given the committee quite a display of histrionics over a rather simple matter. I was told some time ago about this matter. I may say I discovered the letter

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about which my hon. friend speaks about the time it was handed to him. I heard1 that it was handed to him, or rather that it was handed not to him but to a member of his party, and I know by whom it was handed.
It was given to me at the same time.


John George Diefenbaker: I rise to a point
of order.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Sit down.


Thomas Vien: What is the point of
order?


John George Diefenbaker: My point of order
is that the letter was never handed to me, and I demand a withdrawal of that statement.


Thomas Vien: There is no point of
order in that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I said it was handed to a
member of the hon. gentleman's party, and the leader of that party told me two hours ago that he had it, confirming information which I received' some time ago. So on a point of order I would ask that my hon. friend keep his seat until I finish this explanation.


Thomas Vien: There is no point of
order. It is a statement of fact, which cannot be denied.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think
the minister has it right, now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think so. To continue, Mr. Chairman, I heard about this letter some time ago. Naturally my reaction was somewhat similar to that of the hon. member for Lake Centre. It is one of those things that occur, and after it is discovered you only do what you can about it. I made very sure that no insurance was placed as suggested in the letter, and I also made sure that the payments would not become an element of overhead cost on the part of any of the subscribers.


John George Diefenbaker: When was that,
may I ask?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That was some two months
ago, as I remember it, or perhaps a month ago.


John George Diefenbaker: Before May 6?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think so. I can check that. Is the letter dated May 6?


John George Diefenbaker: No; the answer
to parliament is dated May 6.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Of course the question that
was asked was a trick question; the answer was known. This man is not on the payroll of my department. The answer states that he is employed by the industry, which is a fact. He is not employed by the department;
he does not appear in the records of the department.


Mr. BROOKS:: Just paid by it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just a moment; I would appreciate it if I could make my statement.


Thomas Vien: Order.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The situation is that the letter was written some time ago. I heard of it two or three months after the letter was written. As I say, I took such steps as I could to set the matter straight. The question that was asked was handled by the department in the ordinary way. An officer of our department is assigned to the duty of furnishing information in reply to these questions. He obtains his information from the records of the department. The name of the gentleman in question, Mr. Hirst, does not appear in the records of the department; but I suppose my officer dug around and found that this man was employed by the industry, so he gave the answer accordingly. I hand in these answers, naturally assuming them to be correct;
I do not personally go through the records of the department. The answer is correct, according to the information in the records of the department. The explanation I received from the director of aircraft production, when the letter was produced, was that the industry had decided that work of the kind for which Mr. Hirst was employed was necessary.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Why was
it necessary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know that it is necessary7. I may say that if I had been asked to make this as an official appointment, I would not have made it. I do not believe in this kind of propaganda in an industry. However, it was represented to me that the industry decided this was a desirable thing to do. I was told that certain members of the industry-I do not say that all were represented- agreed to contribute to the expenses of this man. Had the payment been sponsored by anyone but the director-general of aircraft production I would have found very little to criticize about it, but obviously the director-general of aircraft production should not have had any part in the payment of a man to be employed at the expense of the industry.
I am quite willing to say that the letter was a wholly improper letter. As I say, I considered it as such and I did what I could to correct the situation. I am bound to say that my department is not made up of experienced civil servants; it is made up of men from industry, men who have a different point of view from that of men with experience in the public service. I could have
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done two things. I could have dismissed my director-general of aircraft production because I thought he had done an improper act or, on the other hand-


Richard Burpee Hanson: Nobody has suggested that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What else could I do except what I did? I had to weigh the fact that he came in full of enthusiasm, took an industry that was moribund at the time and built it up into a most excellent industry to-day. It has expanded by forty times. But his methods are not always the methods that I would have used. I am more methodical generally than my director-general of aircraft production; nevertheless I do not know that I could have made as good a job of that industry had I taken it over at the time he did. We have the facts. There is no use in trying to explain the inexplicable or to excuse the inexcusable. That letter was a most improper letter; nevertheless it was written, and written without my knowledge. As I say, I learned about it some two months later, and I did what I could to straighten out the situation. Money had been collected, and the man was at work and apparently doing a very good job. He was working with the industry and at the expense of the industry. I see nothing to get hysterical about. These things happen, I suppose. This is a most unpleasant incident, and if my hon. friend has any suggestions as to what I should do about it at this stage, I shall be very glad to take them into consideration.


John George Diefenbaker: Now that the minister has made his explanation, the answer that was given on May 6 does become inexplicable. The question asked then was, "If no remuneration is paid to him by the government, by what means is he being compensated for his services?" The answer was, "He is receiving no compensation for his services".


Mr. KINLEY:: From the government.


John George Diefenbaker: Yes, from the government, when all the charges that were made were ultimately paid by the people of Canada by an addition to overhead in the contracts?


Richard Burpee Hanson: They are deductible from overhead.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; they are not. They were at the start, but they are not now.


John George Diefenbaker: I just want to ask the minister one question. If he stopped this thing, where are the letters putting an 
end to it? The last letter is dated January 15, at which time $4,000 had tumbled into the coffers. What has happened to that $4,000? Has it been returned to the aircraft companies? In whose possession is it to-day? Possibly the minister will be able to explain what does not appear in the record.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I explained that I stopped any possibility of any advertising being diverted, and I also stopped any deductions being made, or any charges being made against overhead on this account. As I said, the money had been paid in part, and it had been expended on this campaign which is still going on and which is still going to expand. As far as the answer from the department is concerned, I have told how it happened. I said that my hon. friend asked a trick question and his trick worked. He got the answer he expected.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think the question was a trick question.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He had the letter in his hand.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And I do not think the answer was a very candid answer. The whole thing is a most regrettable incident.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite.


An hon. MEMBER:: The minister said that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the hon. member hold himself in patience? The minister asked for certain suggestions, and I rose to give them to him. It is a most regrettable incident. It was a matter of indiscretion on the part of a gentleman whose friendship I have held for many years and who has done, in my view, a most wonderful work in connection with aircraft production in Canada. Let that be said. However, his methods in respect of expenditures are not just according to Hoyle. Perhaps without being concerned, or, shall I say, without realizing the implications of the statement that subscriptions made to the fund could be recouped by deductions from overhead, he endeavoured to raise this money. While the government was not paying anything directly, it was paying the full $9,000 indirectly.
This letter came to us from one of the manufacturers who paid because he felt he dare not refuse, and on its receipt the first question I asked myself was: why was it necessary to build up morale in the aircraft industry in Canada? The minister has not yet elucidated that point. I do not know what the necessity was. Was there strife in the industry? Was not there full cooperation on the part of the

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men in the industry? My impression is that the men in this industry are among the best paid in Canada. I have sent many boys from my community in New Brunswick to Montreal to engage in this industry. Universally they have been successful, and many of them are making very high wages to-day. What was the necessity for building up morale? The minister says that there was not any necessity, and he ought to know. My first suggestion to the minister is that Mr. Hirst should go back and attend to his knitting, which is the building up of a directory in the city of Toronto.
I approve the minister's action entirely in seeing to it that not one dollar of this money shall be paid out of the national treasury by an indirect method. I give my unqualified approval to that. The next suggestion I make is that this money or that part of it which has not been spent be returned to the industry. Then I think the chapter can be closed.
In view of the answers that were given to questions asked earlier this month, I really was surprised to see that we got the correspondence as we did. But the correspondence was brought down, and it was a proper return to make to the motion. One thought that naturally arises in one's mind is this: In connection with government industry or industry engaged on large government contracts, is this the first or isolated case in which this practice has been pursued? I do not know. If it is not, I should like the minister to give an undertaking that this sort of thing will stop and stop immediately. If it is necessary to do a job in industry in order to build up morale, if it is necessary to do any kind of job in industry, there is ample opportunity to appoint men to do that and to pay them an honest wage. I would not object at all if it were established that a morale building campaign were necessary in the aircraft industry. Then an appointment should be made of a proper man under the proper circumstances, and he should be paid a salary and expenses out of the public treasury. I would assume that those who appointed him, those who understood the necessity for the appointment, those who understood the necessity for the operation, would believe that it was in the public interest to do so. That is the open, candid way to do this sort of thing. I must say that I am as regretful as the minister that anything like this occurred.
I should like to have the minister's assurance that, as far as he can prevent it, nothing of this kind will ever occur again, and that if it has occurred in connection with other persons who have contractual rights with the government, the practice will be stopped immediately. Eveiy hon. member within sound of my voice
knows this, that men engaged in operations for the government, when a request of this kind or something similar in scope comes to them, are afraid to say no for fear it will injure their business. There are manufacturers who are afraid to come to my office to see me for fear that even a social visit may be misconstrued. That ought not to be.


Mr. McCANN:: Tell them it is not so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I try to tell them so, but they say: "I wish you well but I cannot come because I am engaged on a government contract." I do not say that there is any system of espionage or any system set up whereby these men would become marked men. But human nature is human nature.


An hon. MEMBER:: You are too guarded.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Maybe I am, and other people may not be so guarded. But it is true that people are afraid to give me information on this very matter. I do not regard this as a major instance, but I do regard it as a very regrettable instance, and I am glad to have the minister's assurance that it will never occur again. But I ask him to go further than he has suggested and to see that this money is returned. It ought all to be returned, and Mr. Hirst, if he is not required, should be sent back to his own business. Furthermore, no scheme of this kind should be permitted to be carried on by any official of the government. I am sure that no civil servant would do it, and no experienced agent of the government and in its employ should do it, because I think we are all agreed that it is not the right method to pursue. H the minister will take the proper steps to correct the position, he will hear no more about it from me.


Thomas Reid: Mr. Chairman, we listened with a great deal of interest to the statement made by the Minister of Munitions and Supply this afternoon, and I believe that most members were pleased to hear of the great strides which have been made in producing in this country munitions of war. I want at the outset to compliment the minister upon what has been accomplished under him in his department.
May I, however, say to him and the committee, that if there is some uneasiness in the minds of some members of parliament and of many outside this house throughout Canada, it is because in this year of life-and-death struggle a considerable feeling exists that we are not doing all we should and can do. There are many lines of munitions production in which we have perhaps reached,
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shall I say, our peak, blit there are other lines in which we have not. Some time ago when I asked a question of the minister, on the orders of the day, regarding the building of wooden ships he was extremely curt with me -I say that in all kindliness-and told me that the question of building wooden ships was a closed book. On May 9, the evening Citizen of Ottawa contained an article which, I believe, sets out the viewpoint of many of us regarding the building of ships of all kinds. It is by A. C. Cummings and comes from London. Here is the viewpoint of the people of Great Britain regarding Canada's shipbuilding programme:
London

Expansion of Canada's shipbuilding programme to 172 vessels with a three-shift working day on the Pacific coast is welcomed in Great Britain, for no need is greater among the united nations this spring than that of ships-more and yet more ships.
Shipping is the key to the whole allied strategy just now. Given plenty of ships Japan could be checked in the Pacific within a few months. Ships carry fighter aircraft and if there were enough of these in the far eastern war zone the enemy could not hope to invade either India or Australia.
Ships carry troops and tanks, too-and these are wanted all over the globe.
It takes five tons of shipping to convey a British soldier and his mechanized equipment overseas. Some units have to travel thirteen thousand miles-six months out and back for a convoy.
Unfortunately, Britain began the war short of ships, for in 1935 seven million tons-more than the Japanese have had for their huge conquests in the Pacific-were considered "redundant", that is, could not earn freights and so were sold, broken up or otherwise disposed of. At the same time, British shipyards were "rationalized", which meant, in plain language, that they were dismantled and shut down. To-day, because of this and because the United Kingdom has to concentrate on new warships, Britain's output of cargo-carriers is only about one million tons.
True, the United States shipbuilding programme is immense and a year hence will be of enormous aid to the allies.
But the urgent need of the moment is ships now-this spring-and although construction in the British empire and the United States combined is already roughly equivalent to sinkings in the Battle of the Atlantic and in the Pacific, what is wanted is to double the present output.
"At this time we could do with literally millions more tons of ships", a high authority told me.	"Every ton that comes from a
Canadian shipyard this year is worth more than five tons a year hence."
This afternoon the minister placed on record a statement regarding the building of steel ships in Canada and, of course, we are doing a splendid job in the building of these vessels. I may be wrong, but I am of the belief that because of the great shipbuilding programme of the United States and, shall I say, with the limited output of steel, it will not be possible
[Mr. Beid.l
to expand our steel shipbuilding programme much further than what is now being done. I have here a statement made by Admiral Land of the United States, and I just wish that some of our people and officials in this country were imbued with the same spirit. Referring to the United States shipbuilding programme, which contemplates building 2,900 ships in 300 days, Admiral Land was reminded that these ships might not last long. He swore when he was reminded that the ships now being built by the United States might not last five years, and he said, "We will take the goods across to Great Britain if we have to row them over there. I don't care a damn how long the ships last. Our duty is to build the ships so that Great Britain may be supplied with all the goods she requires."
We have on both our coasts, but particularly in British Columbia, many men available for wooden shipbuilding. When I was out on the Pacific coast at Easter I paid a visit to many manufacturing plants, and I found queues o,f men waiting to put down their names for work. True, most of the artisans have been picked up and are at work in machine-shops and in our steel shipyards; but when I think that during the last war in British Columbia we had twenty-seven shipyards operating, four of them building steel ships as well as wooden ships on the Fraser river, and to-day we have only a total of seventeen operating, I just wonder whether we are doing all we can to build ships with which to carry our products to the beleaguered people of Great Britain. While I am not going to make a definite charge against the officials of the minister's department, I am going to lay a serious complaint against what has happened, and I am going to give one instance of what has kept orders from British Columbia, while orders for wooden ships are being placed in the United States.
Just before I left home at Easter, those connected with the shipbuilding industry of British Columbia, and particularly with the building of wooden ships, asked me if I would meet them in conference, which I did in Vancouver on the day I left. They made the definite statement that some official in Ottawa of the Department of Munitions and Supply had been asked by the British authorities if British Columbia, Canada, could build wooden mine-sweepers, and the official from Great Britain was told by Canadian officials that it could not be done. Later, this British official whilst in New York discussed the matter with United States officials, and was told that wooden mine-sweepers could be built on the United States Pacific coast. What is happening now is this: fifty miles from the border, south

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of Vancouver, at the city of Bellingham, wooden mine-sweepers are being built to the order of the British government, and British Columbia is supplying most of the lumber.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbuiy):: Is that true?


Thomas Reid: That charge was made by six shipbuilders. I asked if I could make that charge, and they said, "Yes, you can make that charge-that a British official came to Ottawa with a view of placing orders for wooden mine-sweepers, and was told that British Columbia could not build wooden minesweepers, and to-day there are seventy wooden mine-sweepers being built in the United States, mainly on the Pacific coast, and we are supplying most of the lumber for the building of those ships." I say in all seriousness that if that statement is true-and these men gave it to me on good authority, because they had spent a long time in Ottawa endeavouring to procure orders for British Columbia-it is most serious. I am drawing this to the attention of the minister; but particularly do I want him to view this war in a different aspect and not close his mind against the building of wooden ships. We have men who can build ships in plenty. Hundreds of men are idle in British Columbia who could go into these wooden shipyards and help to construct these vessels. We have lumber in abundance. With a statement such as I have given, and in the light of the crying need for ships of every kind, we need not tell the people of British Columbia or the people of the country in general that we are doing everything we can to help Great Britain and help our allies, in this war.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There seems to be some confusion when we talk about wooden ships. We are building wooden ships; we have been building them since the first day of the war. What we were discussing a year ago was wooden cargo ships, which is a particular class of ship. We have not built wooden cargo ships. The difference between a wooden cargo ship and a'steel cargo ship is largely in the material which makes the hull. There is very little difference in the material which goes into the boilers, the engines, the steering gear and various other fittings. The question is, is it good business to build steel hulls or wooden hulls? That is the question in regard to the cargo boats. All our experts tell me that there is more value in the steel hull. I have said that if we could augment the work in any way and if we could find a user for wooden cargo ships, we would be pleased to make them. I have made that offer quite freely. I asked the private trade, if they wanted to
enter into a lease-operating arrangement for wooden ships, to let us know, and I received no offers; I have had no interest from any 3hip user in wooden ships. Obviously, my department builds for someone, and we can hardly build wooden ships unless we can find someone who wants those ships.
Wooden mine-sweepers, wooden Fairmile boats and wooden tugs are quite a different matter. We build them. We have been building them. No officer of mine could possibly have told my hon. friend that these could not be built on the Pacific coast because we have been building them for a long time. My officers are quite familiar with what can be done, and so are the British. British shipbuilding experts go every month to British Columbia. An admiralty mission has been resident in Canada for a year and a half; they know Canada as well as I do. I suggest to my hon. friend that he should not make a statement like the one he has made unless he can give me the name of the officer and afford me a chance to trace it down. If he will do that, that is all right. But if it is simply a sweeping statement that some officer said so-and-so, I would say that that could not possibly be so, because my officers are familiar with both coasts and have arranged for a great deal of shipbuilding to be done on both coasts.


Thomas Reid: I have been in this house since 1930, and I have never made a statement which I could not back up. The minister asks for the name. Would the committee grant me this courtesy, that I supply the name in confidence to the minister rather than put it on Hansard?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; put it on Hansard.


Thomas Reid: I know how difficult it is for the official, how unfair it is just to blame the official and place the name on Hansard. But I have it with me.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Give it to the minister.


Thomas Reid: It is strange that we are only now beginning to think of building minesweepers in British Columbia, seeing that orders for seventy for the British admiralty have been placed in the United States for some considerable time. Can the minister tell us if the statement appearing in the press is correct that they are going to build thirty-five mine-sweepers in British Columbia? We can get no confirmation, and it is a very important matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say at the moment, but I should be glad to make inquiries.

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James Arthur Ross: I listened this afternoon with some degree of pride as the minister told us of the efforts which have been put forward by his department on behalf of Canada and of the other allied countries of the world. But I have one matter in mind which I think should not be lost sight of. We are to a large degree losing responsible government in this dominion. In my opinion, responsible government by the elected representatives of the people has been largely superseded and control handed over to the dollar-a-year men who are big business men in this country. The other day I read a return from which it appears that there are 272 dollar-a-year men now handling the affairs of Canada. Many of them have very considerable interests of their own, and the tendency of such appointments is to establish in this country a bureaucracy, which has many dangerous aspects.
I rose, however, to ask a question or two pertaining to gasoline. The minister said that in the matter of gasoline the prairie provinces were more or less self-sufficient. In that respect, in the part of the country in which I live, one of the most prominent oil companies in Canada is running a very large fleet of trucks from Moose Jaw through southern Saskatchewan and southern Manitoba, delivering its products to distributing stations in that manner and paralleling the railroads. At a time like this, to say the least, this is a very bad example to other people who are asked to save gasoline and tires. I believe there are tank cars available on the railways, but this great fleet of trucks comes down the highways every day delivering their product on that basis. I trust the minister will be able to explain that.
Then there is the matter of the sale of gasoline from seven in the morning to seven in the evening. I do not know whether he realizes what that means to the agriculturists of the prairie provinces at this time of year and from now till the snow flies next fall, but in any centre in the prairie provinces, most of these people usually do their trading on Saturday evenings. That is the time when they go to town to do their shopping and buy their gasoline. I have not any idea what number of man-power hours would be saved to agriculture in the western provinces if they were allowed to purchase their gasoline until nine or ten o'clock on Saturday evening, but certainly it would be a good deal. I have received many resolutions from cooperatives asking that the hours of sale be extended for their benefit, at least on Saturday evenings. As I say, throughout

the entire prairie provinces agriculturists have to quit their work early in the day in order to reach their trading centres to procure gasoline before seven o'clock. It would be a great saving and immensely help our war effort if on Saturday evenings the hours of sale could be extended until nine or ten o'clock. I am sure that by this time the minister must have some information on the matter, if he would care to give it now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to call my hon. friend's remarks to the attention of the oil controller.


Mr. POTTIER:: I want to make a few remarks with regard to wooden minesweepers. Either there is some misunderstanding or some difficulty must have been found in British Columbia which has not been experienced on the Atlantic coast. We have on the Atlantic coast building for the British admiralty, I believe, some thirty mine-sweepers. A number are being constructed in two yards in my constituency.


Thomas Reid: I am told that British Columbia is supplying lumber for these.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: I do know about supplying the lumber. The lumber that goes into these mine-sweepers is coming in large measure from the districts in which the minesweepers are being built.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member for New
Westminster (Mr. Reid) referred to the great many men unemployed in British Columbia. I should like to get to the bottom of that. I receive alarming reports of the shortage of operators in the aeroplane spruce industry. I suppose there is no more vital industry in connection with aeroplane production in this country than the aeroplane spruce industry. I am told1 that only 40 per cent of the required cutters in that industry can be engaged in British Columbia. The production of copper in British Columbia dropped' very sharply in the last two months and is still dropping, again through the shortage of men in the mines of the province. I receive complaints from various industries in British Columbia that the cut will be short this year because of a shortage of workers. Let us not talk glibly about the great unemployment in British Columbia.


Thomas Reid: The minister need not try to
be discourteous to me by saying that I am talking glibly. There has been a shift of labour in British Columbia. I know that, when I left, there were in one yard seventy-five men who were idle. I visited the Boeing aeroplane plant, and I could hardly get near

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the desk, because such a great number of men and women were endeavouring to register.
I visited three plants, and some told me that they had as many as 250 men on the list. There are vacancies in the woods. Many of these men have been coming to the shipyards, but that does not dispose of the statement I made, and it was not a glib statement.


Angus MacInnis: I wish to return to the
question raised by the member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker). There was one point in Mr. Bell's letter that was quite disturbing to me. I quite appreciate what the minister said about the condition in his department. I have been complaining about it for the last two years. These business men who are manning his department have been running their own business as they jolly well pleased for years and there was no one to say them nay. They expect now to do the same thing with the government's business. Their attitude has been a constant bone of contention since the war began, and I have not been able to get any satisfaction when I have complained of it. In Mr. Bell's letter I find this sentence:
This sum is, by arrangement with treasury, chargeable to overhead in connection with your aircraft contracts.
I was on the war expenditures committee last year. I was on committee No. 1 that went into the matter of treasury control, and we were given to understand that everything was so iron-clad that one could not get a nickel past the treasury. The members of the treasury department are there for the purpose of protecting the interests of the people of Canada as represented by the crown, and, unless they consulted with the minister-and even if they had consulted with him-were not looking after their business in the proper way, when they would allow an arrangement of this kind to be made. It seems to me that this is a most serious charge against the officials of the treasury. They certainly failed in their duty when they allowed an item of this kind to be covered up in overhead. They are being paid to see that such a thing does not happen, and no controller or anyone else should be able to tell any industry that he has made an arrangement with the treasury department that you can hide this or that amount in your costs. We should have fuller explanation of this than we have had.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not the minister in
charge of treasury.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I have tried to look through Hansard, but I have not had time. I should like to refer to the remarks made
by the minister in connection with spruce. It is to our credit, and it is to the advantage of Canada, that we happen to have a monopoly in Sitka spruce, which is most essential for aeroplane wings, particularly bombers. The third largest logging concern in British Columbia is threatened with a shut-down to-day, and that is something of serious consequence to that province, though it is not half as serious to that province as it is to the dominion and to the war effort as a whole. The reason, as I gather from information that came to hand no later than yesterday, is the fact that the logging concerns, which, I suppose, are expected to produce at a normal profit, just as any other business does, are not able to compete with the shipyards in the right of way for labour. It has been questioned that there is any shortage of labour in that province in view of the fact that there are men who are unemployed. Does the minister expect that a logger will go up to Queen Charlotte islands-and there is no harder work in Canada than logging- when he can get the wages that are being paid in the shipyards on the cost-plus basis? The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis), I suppose, knows better than I do about these matters, but I do not believe, from my own personal knowledge, the stories that are going around that the shipyard employers are leaning against one another. Work in a shipyard is a far easier form of employment than logging on Queen Charlotte islands.
The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) pointed out that we have not had orders for building minesweepers. In 1940 it was pointed out by five different members from British Columbia that we had all the materials; that we had unemployed, skilled and otherwise, in that province, and that we were capable of building these ships. If my memory serves me aright, the idea was pooh-poohed that we could build suitable wooden ships in that province. When it is said that because we have unemployment it should not be necessary to shut down logging, to me that does not make sense. Everyone cannot be a logger. I am sure the minister is not aware of the fact that in one riding in British Columbia to-day there are over fifty lathes idle, with all the mechanics to man them. Plant after plant has not been turning a wheel in that province. We have heard about total war effort and a shortage of power, shortage of gas and so on in other parts of Canada. I repeat, in one riding, there are over fifty lathes standing idle, with mechanics to man them and ample power going to waste. I do not think the minister is justified in his statement. The hon. member for New Westminster needs no assistance from me to defend him,
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but the minister is not justified in his statement, and I say that speaking for my own riding and I have authority to speak for that riding at any rate until such time as the people there decide to send someone else here. I say unequivocally that in my opinion and in the opinion of my riding there is no total war effort in Canada when hundreds of skilled mechanics are unemployed and their lathes standing idle in British Columbia. That being so, we are not at total war, and nobody can convince me that we are.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry to disagree with my hon. friend, but I cannot feel terribly upset about a condition of unemployment when our essential industries in British Columbia cannot operate to capacity, and needed capacity to make the war go, because they cannot get men.


George Alexander Cruickshank: If the minister would like, I can give him dates and names. I do not like to do this for the simple reason mentioned in other cases; human nature being what it is, it is quite possible that these firms might be discriminated against. But I -have the dates when these firms appeared before what is known as the "bits and pieces" department, although as far as British Columbia is concerned that is not the name I would use for it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: All right.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am expressing the opinion of my riding, and I am entitled to do so. That riding is as much concerned in this war effort as any other riding in Canada. It is just as patriotic, as is proved by the voluntary enlistments to date. When I am told that this "bits and pieces" programme means anything I must dispute the minister's interpretation. I have every confidence in the minister and his ability. I am not quarrelling with him. I know he is doing the best job anyone here could do in a difficult position. But it is my duty as a member to point out to the minister, who cannot possibly have a grasp of all the details of his department, that owners of machine shops, wood-working shops and so on in my riding have gone again and again to his representative in the marine building-I do not know who owns the marine building, but it has its fair share of these notorious and useless dollar-a-year men in it-time after time and have been told to fill out a form, everything from the colour of their eyes to the date their grandmother was born. And nothing happens. Yet all these lathes are standing idle; all these mechanics not doing a tap to help Canada's war effort, and power going to waste. If I am given a guarantee that they will not be discriminated against, I can give the names of people who have told me that two or three 
primary contractors in British Columbia have said, "We fought day and night, month in and month out, to get these contracts; do you think we are going to share them with you people?" The only factory at work in that entire riding, a riding with over fifty lathes standing idle, is employing three men in putting out a little brass angle. When I hear that, just because the logging camps cannot get sufficient help, because ship yards can and do pay higher wages, we have not the unemployed that we are supposed to have, I say that I cannot, and do not intend to go back to my riding and say that we have a total war effort, that we are doing our utmost to defeat Hitler, as long as there is a man, skilled or unskilled, idle in British Columbia, as long as there is power not being used that should be used, as long as there is a lathe not turning that should be turning, no matter what anyone in the minister's department says. I am firmly of opinion that it is time the minister changed his advisers in British Columbia, particularly in regard to the "bits and pieces" programme, and put in a few practical men, and I suggest that among these practical men should be a representative of labour and a representative of agriculture.


Angus MacInnis: This question of labour
power is, in my opinion, going to become a difficult one before very long. This does not mean that there are not many people unemployed at present. I believe the latest figures available from the unemployment insurance commission, those for April I think, show some 35,000 to 36,000, of whom some
8,000	are women. It is not stated how many of these were employables and how many unemployables; but since these figures come from the unemployment insurance branch, I take it that only a very small number would be unemployables. There are other unemployed not in industries covered by the unemployment insurance branch. I believe the number is estimated as something over 100,000. As I said, there are no definite figures as to the number of unemployed; we are still in the same mess we have been in since 1931. It is quite possible, probably correct, that the Sitka spruce industry has difficulty in keeping their employees. That is a situation not altogether due to the better wages paid in the shipyards and other industries, although that may be a factor. If the Minister of Labour were present, he could substantiate the statement that I took up with him on, I think, the very first day he came into the house, the refusal of the employers in the logging industry on Queen Charlotte islands, where the spruce is cut, to deal or cooperate with their organized employees in any way.

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The last letter I had from these employees complained that the dining-room was closed to them because they were half an hour late through attending a union meeting. Men will not stay in an industry operated on that basis when there is employment offering in other places.
I do not know whether any hon. members have ever been in the Queen Charlotte islands in the summer. It is not a nice place to work. The ground is soggy, wet; the men are walking around on wet ground all the time; there are mosquitoes and black flies, and many other things to make life miserable even if the employers did not help to make it still more miserable. It is no wonder the men leave there to work in the shipyards where they have some say as to the conditions under which they work. If this government wants to get men in the various industries and do it without having to adopt the methods of Hitler, they must do it through cooperation between employers and employees. There is no other way of doing it except the way our enemies are doing it. If we have to resort to that sort of thing we might as well stop the war, because we shall have reached the stage where our enemies were before we went into the war. I believe the director of national services, who has recently been appointed, has some good ideas in this direction; I hope he will be given an opportunity to try them out.


Mr. McGARRY:: When I hear individual members of this committee advocating things that are regional, things absolutely of advantage to their own political security, it amazes me to think that at other times they may say that we are now undertaking a unified effort in Canada. When I hear individual members rise on behalf of local aggrandizement and undertake to carry on a campaign of belittle-ment against our Minister of Munitions and Supply, who is recognized to-day as the most proficient man in that capacity in perhaps the entire commonwealth, I do not see where our effort is so unified as some of these hon. members profess it to be. I come from a constituency in which there is not one war project. I am not protesting against that. I believe the men who are at the head of affairs, in laying out these projects, take heed of the economic and strategic factors entering into them as far as our war effort is concerned, and I am perfectly satisfied. I may not be able to judge for myself, but from what I gather, not only in Canada but abroad, our Minister of Munitions and Supply is doing a wonderful job, and I am not particularly concerned over any local grievance, or because
I cannot do something for my constituency which possibly would mean my return to parliament. I am concerned with this war effort, and I do not like to sit around and listen, and pretend to be an appreciative audience when individual members rise in their places and carry on a campaign of belittlement because certain things have not been done in their constituencies, out of the multiplicity of things that have to be done in our war effort, none of which has been done in my constituency.


Thomas Reid: I rise to a question of privilege.
I am not sure whether the last speaker intended his remarks to apply to the speech I made here this evening, but I am one of those who mentioned local matters, and I am asking the hon. member to withdraw that statement if it referred to myself. Certainly I said something about a local matter, but it was constructive. I have taken the attitude, Mr. Chairman, that we need ships now and more ships. I endeavoured to point out to the minister that the production of steel has reached a point beyond which perhaps it could not be very much expanded. I pointed out that Great Britain requires ships, if she requires anything, and I urged that wooden ships be built in British Columbia. I ask the hon. member to withdraw his statement if it applies to me, because it is untrue as far as anything political in my remarks is concerned.


Moses Elijah McGarry: My statement was
general.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I must ask for a withdrawal, too, as far as I am concerned, and it is not enough to say that the statement was general:	If the maritimes are satisfied,
we from British Columbia are not, as to Canada's war effort, as has been said before by some members from British Columbia. We are not talking for our own ridings. I have not a shipyard or anything at all in my riding, not even lobsters; I have only people who are interested in Canada's war effort, and so I ask for a withdrawal as far as my riding and myself are concerned.


Thomas Vien: I think by this time the point is quite clear. The hon. gentleman did not address his remarks to any particular member of the House of Commons.


Thomas Reid: But it was evident whom he meant.


George Alexander Cruickshank: There were only three previous speakers.


Thomas Vien: Order. His remarks contained- a statement of fact, which has been

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challenged, and I think the record speaks for itself. There was nothing in the remarks of the hon. gentleman that was unparliamentary.


Thomas Reid: I did not say there was anything unparliamentary in what he said. I said there was an innuendo; and I dispute your suggestion, Mr. Chairman, that it was a statement of fact.


Thomas Vien: My ruling is not
debatable.


Thomas Reid: But you cannot prevent me from saying so.


Thomas Vien: Order, please. The incident is closed.


Thomas Reid: You just think it is.


Thomas Vien: I hope the hon. gentleman does not challenge the authority of the Chair, or desire to be unruly. I would simply say. that his remedy is an appeal from the decision of the Chair. My humble person is not involved; it is only my effort to be the servant of the committee in applying the rules. I am sure my hon. friend is an old enough parliamentarian to understand that.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to withdraw a statement I made.


Thomas Vien: Order, please; the incident is closed.


George Alexander Cruickshank: But I want to withdraw a statement.


Thomas Vien: Order.


George Alexander Cruickshank: On a point of order, I want to withdraw.


Thomas Vien: Order; the incident is closed.


Victor Quelch: Mr. Chairman, the question of immediate importance, in my opinion, still appears to be how we can most rapidly bring about the expansion of the production of certain war materials, such as ships, aeroplanes and tanks. To me that appears to be of greater importance at the present time than how we can expand our army overseas. I make that statement because in the theatres of war to-day the real shortage is not so much in men as in machines. For instance, in Russia they have tremendous reserves of men, but they are lacking in aeroplanes and tanks. From what we can gather, the loss of Singapore was brought about not so much by any lack of men, because apparently we had superiority in man-power over Japan, but because Japan had overwhelming air superiority. According to the statement of the editor of the Sydney Daily Telegraph, in Australia to-day there is

a corps of first-class, front-line airmen waiting for planes from America. If I were in the front line again I would far rather have a few men, well backed up by tanks and aeroplanes, than a large number of men without that support. So surely the principal question should be how we can most rapidly expand the production of these essential war materials. For that reason I take strong exception to the statement made over the air quite recently by the Minister of Munitions and Supply, when he said:
It is difficult for me to believe that many situations will arise where it can be shown, to the satisfaction of any board, that a young man cannot be replaced by industry. I appreciate the fact that newer industries, such as aircraft production, depend greatly on young men who have been trained for work in that particular industry, but I cannot support the view that industry is entitled to their services, in preference to the active service forces.
In my opinion to apply such a policy to aircraft production to-day would be criminal folly. Not long ago I was speaking to the manager of a propeller factory in Montreal. He told me that he was having great difficulty in holding his skilled men, who were being called up for service; and he pointed out that as far as propeller factories are concerned, they need a far larger proportion of skilled men than do other industries. During the Easter recess I visited a number of aircraft factories around Montreal. There is no doubt that the production of many of these factories could be greatly expanded at the present time, utilizing only the machinery they now have.
For example, the president of one of the three large plants in Montreal told me that he was very critical of the policy of the government in the past. He explained to me how at first he had been tooled up for an order of five aeroplanes, and then an order for seven planes was placed. He said that he was in the position where he had to hound the government continually for an expansion of business, whereas in his opinion it should have been the other way; the government should have been hounding industry to maintain production at the maximum level. He told me there was no trouble with labour, and he emphasized the fact that if he could have additional floor space he could double his production without any new machinery. He said that labour would be available for that purpose. I was told, on authority that I would not hesitate to accept, that the question of whether or not that floor space should be expanded depends upon whether or not sufficient business could be obtained to warrant the expansion. That is something I find it very hard to understand. A few minutes ago the minister said that we

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were producing rriore than we needed in Canada for our troops. On the other hand, we are supplying planes to Russia and soon will be sending planes to Australia. Surely there is no danger of producing more planes than those people need. I cannot understand why there should be any question of whether or not we should expand the production of any plant for fear there might not be enough business to warrant that expansion.
I understand that, apart from the engines, practically all the parts which go into an aeroplane are being manufactured in Canada, and the minister has assured us that we can get enough engines to install in the planes we build. The production of planes could, no doubt, be expanded by applying the surplus labour still available for that purpose. At every plant I visited I was told that there was no shortage of labour, and I visited about nine plants in Montreal. The first question I asked when I went to a plant was: have you any trouble about labour? I was always told that there was no shortage of labour. They told me that whereas in the past forty or fifty men used to turn up every day looking for work, only ten or twelve turned up to-day. Labour would be available for that purpose. I must admit that I was very much surprised to receive that statement from the plants in view of what was said by the Minister of Munitions and Supply to the effect that our production was rapidly reaching its peak because of a shortage of skilled labour.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has said that he visited a number of plants and was told that there was no shortage of labour. Will he accept a list of plants from me to visit and see what he finds there?


Victor Quelch: I visited the three large plants in Montreal: Canadian Car and Foundry, Canadian Propellers, Noorduyn and Fairchild.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are quite small operations. I suggest that the hon. member visit the aluminum company and the nickel company and see some larger operations.


Victor Quelch: I am talking about aeroplane plants in Montreal, not about mines. The manager of one of the main plants there emphasized the fact that he could expand the production of his plant 100 per cent if he were given additional floor space, and he could do this without additional machinery.
The international association of machine workers, lodge No. 712, have an agreement with the three main plants in Montreal. They urged the managers of those plants and Mr. Bell that they should go over to a 168-hour
production week, running three 8-hour shifts with a swing shift in order to give the men a one-day holiday a week. In order to be fair to them I should just quote from the brief which they submitted to the managers and Mr. Bell. I quote:
Accelerating the rate of present production schedules of "planes on order" is possible immediately. Our proposal that the industry chart a course to go over to the 168 hours per week production schedule (3 eight-hour production shifts per day and the seven-day working week) points the way to substantial speeding-up of the present schedules of production of "planes on order" and is also necessary to gear the industry for any contemplated upward revision of aircraft production plans by the government. To-day, we estimate that approximately 7,000 Montreal aircraft workers are engaged on the day-shift, with approximately 3,000 on the so-called night-shift. Our estimation is that Fairchilds is operating on the basis of around one and one-half production shifts per twenty-four hour day. Noorduyns about the same; that Vickers when in full production operates about the same; Federal Aircraft about the same; Aero about the same; and that the Pointe St. Charles plant of Canada Car operates between one and one-half to two production shifts per day, while their Turcot plant operates one eight-hour production shift per day.
Assuming that supply problems can be solved to bring up to assembly points all necessary material, and that cooperatively we can organize the necessary extra workers and personnel and that the plants go over to three eight-hour production shifts per day, a conservative estimate would be that production figures can be increased by at least 100 per cent upon this basis.
And again:
Personnel problems arise out of our proposal above, and it may be assumed that the gearing of our industry to the 168 hour production schedule will call for between 18,000 and 20,000 workers, that is, 8 to 10,000 additional people.
I notice that Mr. Ralph Bell gave a statement to the press in reply to that, reading as follows:-
The question of whether or not the aircraft plants in Canada shall or shall not work twenty-four hours per day, seven days a week does not depend on whether or not the men and women operating these plants are prepared to work such schedules, but rather, and entirely on two points:
1.	Whether or not it is possible to procure for expanded production schedules adequate quantities of all of the materials and thousands of parts, accessories, et cetera, of which there is already a shortage and without which the manufacture of complete finished aircraft is impossible, and
2.	Whether in an industry in which personnel has been expanded forty times in the short space of two and a half years, it is possible to develop sufficient competent superintendents, foremen and lead hands to staff three shifts, as against the two shifts on which the bulk of the Canadian industry is now being operated.
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I would point out that they are not really operating two shifts because the night shift is only aproximately half the day shift, in other words they only operate about one and one-half shifts. In so far as the first part of this letter is concerned, as to whether or not we can get materials and parts for these planes, the fact is that these parts are being manufactured in Canada. We have the surplus labour, and surely it would be only a question of applying that surplus labour to the production of these parts to make them available for a larger production of planes.
The manager of Noorduyn was quite emphatic that you could get more efficient work from the men and a greater production from the plant with a five-day week for the men, keeping the plant going the full seven days. These plants are now operating a 10-hour shift and, with so many young girls working in the plants, I can easily understand why there is so much sickness. It is not easy for these young girls to stand up to a 10-hour shift. Surely by having three 8-hour shifts, we could reduce the amount of sickness and the number of absentees which is one of the curses of all industry to-day.
Apparently no steps are being taken at the present time to expand the training of men and women in order to make it possible to go on a three 8-hour shift programme. As was pointed out, that would require an additional
8,000	men. Surely, until that maximum production has been attained, there should be no question of withdrawing trained men from these industries and supplanting them with girls. In regard to the possibility of expanding production, the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maelnnis) referred to a statement in a sessional paper to the effect that 34,000 men and women were unplaced by the unemployment insurance commission. Probably most of these people will be untrained, but in view of the fact that we are approaching a crisis in which it is so essential that we have more planes, more tanks and. more ships, we should not hesitate to withdraw skilled labour from the gold mines of this country because they are certainly not essential to our war effort. The United States has classified goldmining as a non-essential industry, and I think it is high time that we took a similar stand in this country. Would the minister explain why it is not considered sound or feasible to run the various aircraft plants on a 168-hour basis?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I said before, the aeroplane industry is expanding very, very rapidly. Since the war began, it has been taking on men at an average rate of 2,000 men a month, but there is a limit to how fast men can be
[Mr. Queleh.l
taken on and absorbed in' an industry. Our objective is a seven-day week and three eight-hour shifts, and we have achieved that in a number of factories, also in two plants in the shipbuilding industry. But it takes a very highly organized and well-equipped plant to operate on that basis. In the first place we must have, not three shifts, but four shifts of supervisory staff to run that sort of operation. That means, of course, a great many more foremen and more supervisory staff.
There is another thing. The aircraft industry, as my hon. friend has seen it, is an assembly plant, and back of the assembly plant there are a great many factories making component parts which have to be first developed to a stage where they will permit the assembly plant to proceed on the kind of intensified three-shifts-a-day basis that he urges. I can tell him of a number of plants which have been organized to the point where they are working on three shifts a day. The Bren gun plant, for instance, has been working seven days a week, and three eight-hour shifts a day, for over a year, and I could name many more, but there you have an integrated industry where everything except the raw materials is made on the premises. It is much easier to organize that sort of plant on a high-pressure basis, seven days a week and twenty-four hours a day, than a plant which is in reality an assembly plant, back of which there are many hundreds of small shops manufacturing component parts. But we shall, I think, as time goes on, bring the aircraft industry up to that point. We have one plant that is not far away from that now. It is pretty well organized, and I think we shall eventually get the industry on a seven-day week and three-shifts-a-day basis. But it takes time. If we could stabilize the industry and say, "we will keep to the models we now have and make no further changes," and stop expanding floor space, we could bring the industry up to the stage my hon. friend suggests. But it is an expanding industry in many ways, and we have not yet reached that point.


Victor Quelch: Until we have done so
should we not hesitate to withdraw skilled labour from the industry for the army because that is bound to retard production? On the other point, that we should not hesitate to give a plant enough business to warrant an expansion of floor space, do I understand the minister to say that it does not matter whether we get the United States to buy these planes from us, to make them available to England or Russia under the lend-lease plan?

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Clarence Decatur Howe: Not at all. There is not a
plant in Canada that has not sufficient work to last until the end of 1943.


Victor Quelch: At the present rate?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They can produce as fast as
they like. They have ample orders. There is no restriction on anyone producing all that their plant can produce to-day. If they do not do so, they are missing a golden opportunity and are out of pocket on that account. There is no lack of orders to-day. It has taken time to organize our plants for continuous production, but there is not a plant in Canada to-day that cannot tell you what planes they are going to be making this time next year.
My hon. friend says that once a man goes into the aeroplane industry, he should be kept there and not be taken out for the army. I do not consider that a man who has spent six or eight months in the aeroplane industry is a skilled mechanic who must not be taken out of the industry for the army.


Victor Quelch: You would lose the benefit of eight months training because you would have to put a new man in the industry in his place.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps so, but the armed
services require mechanics too. The air force, for instance, requires mechanics just as badly as does the aeroplane industry, and if they cannot get them from industry they have to train them. It is just as easy to train a mechanic in an aeroplane plant as in a training school.


Victor Quelch: The army will not need mechanics unless they get the machines from industry.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The army is not badly off for machines to-day. It is all very well to theorize, but after all it is only fair to take an industry and see what it was a year ago and what the trend has been since then up until to-day. To-day the aeroplane industry is vastly stronger than it was a year ago or even six months ago, and a year from now when we have been able to stream-line the industry we shall have a greater ratio of employment, but as long as my hon. friend says that there is great unemployment, and keeps insisting on that, I cannot agree with him that it is improper to take men from any industry if they are needed for the army.


Victor Quelch: The minister will not dispute the figures tabled in the house by the unemployment insurance commission, which show 34,000 men and women unplaced.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have 34,000 jobs to-day which I cannot fill. I think we had better get together.


Victor Quelch: I think so. The unemployment insurance commission has been set up for the purpose of getting these people jobs.
The minister has referred to the fact that we have had a fairly rapid expansion of industry. I think the government are altogether too prone to emphasize the fact that the production of war materials has had to start from scratch, and that they have been handicapped by lack of skilled men, tools, plants and equipment. Whose fault was it that that situation existed? Have the men who were responsible for that position being in existence upon the declaration of war been removed from office? If they have not been, have we any assurance that they are not still to-day retarding our war effort? From 1935 to 1939 we continually hounded this government to take the necessary steps to develop the resources of this country, and members here who were in the house at that time know the kind of response we got from the Minister of Finance. Always his reply was: "There is no money available". So I think the government is not in a very good position to-day to give the excuse that it has not been able to achieve a more rapid expansion of industry because it had to start from scratch, because, in other words, it allowed the resources of this country in man-power and in industry to be systematically sabotaged during the five years preceding the war.
I should like to ask the minister two or three questions regarding the road along the Lachine canal. I have seen the Canadian Car and Foundry works, and I have seen some pretty bad roads in the west, but I have seldom seen a worse road than the particular road which is servicing that war plant. Just a week before I went there, a load of aluminum had gone over into the canal, and there have been a number of accidents. There is, I understand, a dispute between the city of Montreal and the transport department, as to responsibility for the road, but surely in a matter as important as this the government should go ahead under the War Measures Act, fix the road and argue responsibility afterwards. The road certainly should be fixed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That road is a private road. It is not part of the canal property. It has been a moot point. The Canadian Car and Foundry have tried to bring pressure to bear on the department from this side of the house and from the opposite side, and I am glad to
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see that they have gone down now to the far comer. Nevertheless the question of responsibility has been looked into, and it is not the responsibility of the federal government. The federal government will have nothing to do with that road. The sooner the Canadian Car and Foundry Company appreciate that fact, the sooner they will get a road.


Victor Quelch: Do I understand the minister to say he is going to allow the condition of the road to impede or hamper the production of planes, as it is doing at the present time? He can take the necessary steps to see that the road is repaired, and fix the responsibility afterwards.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think my hon. friend would be very well advised to stick to matters he understands. He is not an engineer; he is not a highway man; he is not an expert on municipal authority, and he had better speak on more general questions.


Victor Quelch: The minister says I am not an authority on road-building. He would probably be surprised to know the amount of experience I have had, and the number of years I have spent on contract work building not only railways, but highways. I know a good deal about the condition of that road. It would not cost very much to fix. It has a hard bottom and is full of holes and ruts. He should be a little more careful about the remarks he makes when he says I do not know about roads and highways. I spent a good deal of time on subcontracts before the war.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Where?


Victor Quelch: On the Grand Trunk line, and the Goose Lake branch line, Twining and Youngstown.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Whose business is it,
anyway?


Victor Quelch: I do know that this condition is having a serious effect on our production. At the propeller factory of the Canadian Car and Foundry company there is an open sewer running right through the grounds.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The property it is running through is owned by Canadian Car and Foundry Company Limited. I understand they are making fair returns on the contracts they have. The hon. member could suggest to them that they might fix it.


Victor Quelch: It is not their sewer. The responsibility must be with the city of Montreal or some other authority, and I think the minister should be sufficiently interested in the workers in that industry to 
see that action is taken regarding that open sewer. One can imagine what it is going to be like near that factory in the hot weather. I am not discussing whether or not it is the responsibility of the federal government or of the city of Montreal. It is near a factory engaged in producing war materials, and for that reason the minister should have an interest in the remedying of that condition.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have understood from statements of the minister on several occasions that shortage or steel is one of his major concerns. I have a letter from H. Gauvin, manufacturer, of Ottawa, advising that:
Four million pounds of metal and five hundred thousand dollars could have been saved to date by the government on their low cost housing since the war, simply by using Enamel-Steel-Bathtubs.
I am not advertising this particular ware, but the manufacturer of these bathtubs wrote on April 1 to the director of national housing under the Department of Finance regarding this particular bathtub, and apparently it had sufficient merit to warrant a reply from the director as follows:
Having seen your new all metal bathtub I feel that it has sufficient merit to warrant us asking you for definite quotations and as discussed with you a few days ago I wish you could arrange to give us definite quotations based on:
1,000	tubs 5' long; 5,000 tubs 5' long; 10,000 tubs 5' long.
This brings me to the question I have in mind. This manufacturer was advised that Wartime Housing Limited was the department to be interested in this particular invention. The manufacturer informed me:
I wish to state that I have repeatedly offered the entire use of my patent covering my low cost enamel steel bathtub to the government for the duration of the war, with or without my services, on their own terms, for the saving of metal, with no answer.
I cannot verify that statement; but the claim that four million pounds of metal and four hundred thousand dollars can be saved would seem to me to warrant at least a reply to this letter. I took the trouble to write to Wartime Housing Limited on February 26, after giving some consideration to this man's representations, and I said to them:
Mr. H. Gauvin, 26 James street, Ottawa, has been discussing with me his Steel-Enamel-Bathtub. He discussed the use of this tub with the national housing administration here, prior to the establishing of Wartime Housing Limited, with a view to using this type of tub in the low-priced houses which were to be constructed. He has given me a copy of his file and, apparently, has not received an acknowledgment to a number of letters sent to you.
I am enclosing copies of eight letters, and would appreciate a reply from you, commenting

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on this particular type of tub and whether the saving in material, which he claims would be effected, would warrant his applying for special consideration from the steel controller in connection with the manufacture of these tubs.
1 might say that, having visited the temporary houses being built by Wartime Housing Limited, it is my considered opinion that these tubs would last much longer than these temporarily built houses will last.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are these tubs made in
Ottawa?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: He had his quotation
from a reliable firm in Ottawa to manufacture in these quantities: 1,000, 5,000 and 10,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They are not making
them yet.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: No. He has his patent, but he cannot manufacture until he gets permission from the steel controller.
I failed to get a reply from the government-owned company which has already undertaken to spend thirty million dollars of public money, so I had occasion to discuss the question with the minister. After doing so, he assured me he would get a reply, and so the day after the interview I wrote the minister as follows:
As suggested during our interview yesterday, I am writing you in connection with correspondence between Mr. H. 'Gauvin of Ottawa and Wartime Housing of Toronto, and also regarding a letter I sent to Wartime Housing on February 28 which has not been acknowledged to date.
You intimated you would find out why these letters have not been acknowledged, and let me have a report at a later date.
That letter was written on March 18, and to date I have not had a reply from the minister, so I assume that he did not have any reply from his government-controlled company, Wartime Housing Limited.
I have a letter from Mr. Gauvin, dated May 1, the last paragraph of which reads as follows:
About a month ago, a gentleman called on me saying that he represented the Wartime Housing Ltd. and wanted to inspect my Steel-Enamel-Bathtub and make a report to the Wartime Housing Ltd. I gave him all the information he wanted and he inspected the product, and it turned out he was a representative of Crane Limited acting for Wartime Housing Limited.
That is a strange set of circumstances, that Wartime Housing Limited, after this long delay, finally sends to inspect this particular bathtub a representative of a rival firm.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Might I point out that there is a difference between Crane and my hon. friend's friend, in that one makes bathtubs and the other does not. Is that not true?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Yes; but the minister is not going to laugh away this question as easily as that. I am not contending that this bathtub is everything it is represented to be, but at least I think the manufacturer is entitled to a statement from some responsible official of this government.


Manley Justin Edwards: What manufacturer?
There isn't any manufacturer.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Oh, yes; the manufacturer is H. Gauvin, and his bathtub is available for display, I understand, if any member of parliament wishes to see it. I again wrote the minister, on May 5:
On March 18, I wrote to you following an interview on the previous day in connection with Mr. H. Gauvin.
I still have not had any acknowledgment from Wartime Housing Limited on the letter I wrote to them on February 28. Mr. Gauvin has written to me again, and I have just advised him that my letter of February 28 has never been acknowledged-
I think the people of Canada are not going to be satisfied with Wartime Housing Limited failing to answer a letter from a member of parliament regarding a claim of this sort. I merely asked them for a statement that this proposal was "all haywire" or that it had some merit in it. I have not had even the courtesy of a letter. For Wartime Housing Limited to send a representative of Crane to report on this particular project, and even after that has happened, being unwilling to reply to a member of this parliament, who in turn is responsible to the people of Canada for national expenditure, simply is not good enough. I ask the minister to tell this committee why Wartime Housing Limited cannot reply to letters of this sort and why they have to engage employees of Crane to pass an opinion on a matter of this kind.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Rightly or wrongly, the department takes the view that articles should be sold on their merit and that they should not be high-pressured by members of parliament. I do not like to say that to hon. members, but frankly we do not like-


Angus MacInnis: High-pressured by Crane.


Clarence Decatur Howe: -members of parliament to act as high-pressure purchasing agents. My hon. friend is very much interested in housing. I have had many talks with him about it. I asked about this project, and requested him to get a report on it himself, whether there was any merit in this thing. My hon. friend cannot demand a reply from me on behalf of the salesman of a product to the Department of Munitions and Supply. He is not entitled to do that, and he cannot demand

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it of any member of my staff. It is not the privilege of members of parliament to interfere in the purchasing of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and every member of parliament knows that except my hon. friend.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have no interest in this firm or in this individual in any shape or form.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, the hon. gentleman has written a great many letters about him. He is selling a commercial product to a buying . department of the government.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: According to the information, he can provide-and the minister has not contradicted it-a saving of four million pounds of metal and 1500,000. That has been claimed, and a reliable firm in Ottawa has submitted quotations. According to the quotations to the national housing administration, which also is a government-owned concern, he is offering 1,000 bathtubs at $15.10 a bathtub, 5,000 at $13.90 and 10,000 at $13.15.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Was this tender accepted?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: No, for the reason that he cannot get the materials until he gets permission from the steel controller. Any hon. member who will visit the houses in Hull will agree with me that $15 a bathtub is quite good enough for those houses. I cannot see any reason for the minister taking the stand he does, that a member of parliament is not entitled to a reply to letters such as I have written, as to whether there is merit in the man's claim. All I ask for is a statement to the effect that his bathtubs are not acceptable and his claims are extravagant.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will call my hon. friend's sales talk to the attention of my purchasing department.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: That is not good
enough. On March 18 the minister took a different attitude from the one he is taking to-night. My understanding then was that my request was legitimate, and I thought I would receive the information. Would the minister tell the committee why wartime housing has refused to answer my letters in this connection? I should like to have an answer to that question.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Frankly, all I can say is I do not know why they refused. I shall be glad to ask them to give an answer.


Angus MacInnis: The minister should withdraw the statement that the hon. member's speech was a sales talk. I do not think that is a dignified statement or is consonant with

the decorum of the house, and the minister certainly should not use his privilege as a minister to call the speech made by any member a sales talk. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that you demand a withdrawal of that statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I withdraw with pleasure.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: There are one or two matters to which I wish to call attention, but before I do so I would refer to a remark made by the minister in reference to the member for Acadia (Mr. Quelch). He suggested that the hon. member was overemphasizing the unemployment situation, and I think he implied that there was no unemployment problem. A return was brought down in connection with the unemployment situation. It was asked for by the member for Macleod (Mr. Hansell), and it was tabled on May 6. It had to do with the unemployment question. The first question was this:
What is the number of unemployed in each Canadian city of a population of 10,000 or over?
The answer to that question would not by any means give the total unemployment, because this was simply the unemployed registered with the unemployment commission for cities that had a population of 10,000 or over. The answer is:
Attached hereto is a statement showing applicants registered for employment on April 23, 1942, at employment and claims offices of the unemployment insurance commission in cities with a population of 10,000 or over.
The total number of unemployed was 33,449; total males, 25,277, and females, 8,172. That was simply those registered in cities with a population of 10,000 or over. The next question was:
_ How many in each of these cities are receiving direct relief?
The answer was:
No information in possession of the unemployment insurance commission.
In reply to a further question the information was given that the number of unemployed who have registered for employment is not a matter of record. There are two points there of which the minister should take note. There is a large number of available unemployed who are already registered with the unemployment insurance commission. The minister should know that over 33,000 have registered, and that only in cities having a population of 10,000 or over, so that it would be safe to say that there would be double that number if you took the country at large. I do not think the minister is aware of that situation.

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Let me refer to the Minutes of Proceedings and Evidence, No. 3, of the standing committee on railways and shipping, wherein the minister, speaking to the committee on the question of unemployment, is reported as follows:
As a matter of fact, gentlemen, there is no unemployment in this country. If you can show me a thousand men unemployed to-day I can tell you exactly where they can be employed at very excellent wages.
I suggest that he has been told where there is a large number of unemployed. I am sure the people registered would be exceedingly gratified to know that they will be employed at excellent wages. I continue to quote from the minister's statement:
This country is short of employment from end to end.
According to the statement, there is not a city in Canada with a population of 10,000 or over that has not some unemployed who are registered with the unemployment insurance commission, and I have them all here in detail, giving every city with a population of
10,000	or over. I think it would be of advantage to the minister to check this over if he is short of labour-and it is not only skilled labour he wants. Then I continue:
Mr. Maybank: All right.
Mr. Shaw: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask Mr. Howe if his statement applies to unskilled as well as skilled men.
Hon. Mr. Howe: Both.
Mr. Shaw: That seems contrary to a recent radio broadcast that said-and I believe it is a censored broadcast-that unemployment in this country had increased by 5 per cent since J anuary.
Mr. Donnelly: Who said that?
Mr. Shaw: It came over CFBN-
I think that should be CFCN.
-in Calgary in a news broadcast about three weeks ago, and if that is correct, I would not say that your figures with regard to unemployment would stand up.
Hon. Mr. Howe:	If you can deliver me a
thousand men at Ottawa I will be very pleased to use them at Sudbury to-day. If you deliver me five thousand I can use them at Arvida.
Apparently the minister is looking around for men. There they are. Evidently there is lack of coordination somewhere. I am not trying to imply that the minister was insincere when he made the statement, but the evidence produced by the department itself is contrary to what the minister has in mind. I believe, as the hon. member for Acadia just mentioned, that many difficulties of which the minister is probably not aware could be straightened out. Take, for example, the road referred to. Regardless of the fact that the minister intimated that that was not his responsibility, 44561-1561
the fact remains that the poor condition of that road is definitely interfering with our war effort. The minister should take the officers of that company out and-I would go so far as to say-horsewhip them. That is not putting it too strongly when anybody stands in the way of our war effort. The minister should not dilly-dally with them; he has the authority and the power, and it is his responsibility t-o see that they produce 100 per cent.
Another matter to which I wish to refer is the matter that was brought up to-night by the hon. member for Lake Centre in regard to certain expenditures being charged up to production and consequently coming out of the public revenue. A war expenditures committee has been set up by this house this year, and there was one last year. I have said before that I think the members of that committee a year ago did a great deal of hard work and were sincere in their efforts. But if that committee had had proper facilities, I tell the minister that such a condition as was brought to his attention to-night would never have existed. I believe that every hon. member who is on that committee this year and every hon. member who was on it last year is and was endeavouring to assist the government in its war effort. Saving money was one of their major objects. This year the question of production comes in. If the committee is given every facility I believe it will greatly assist the minister. But I do not believe that the committee, as now constituted, can do that work of checking up such details as were brought to the attention of the minister to-night. The committee which sat a year ago, working as energetically as they could, did not have the legal or technical advice of men independent of the government to enable them to investigate a case like that. What should have been done is that the committee should have had a secretariat. That is, they should have been permitted to employ a man who could give them sound legal advice, a good lawyer independent of the government or of members of parliament. They should also have had at their disposal a first-class accountant and a good statistician. The minister may say, "Oh, well, you cannot spend so much money."


Clarence Decatur Howe: L)o not put words in my mouth. I am saying nothing.


Charles Edward Johnston: I did not say the minister said it, but he looked as though he might have said it. I am not trying to attribute anything to the minister; I am suggesting that he or someone else might raise the question of expense. But the matter spoken of to-night was an excellent example:

War Appropriation-Supplies
of how a large amount of money might have been saved to the government. After all, if the employment of a secretariat such as I have mentioned would help the government save money and would in any way increase the present production of our war machine, it would be money well spent.
The question might be raised, "What do you want a lawyer for when you have several lawyers on the committee?" The subcommittee that I happen to be on is dealing with contracts and production. There are lawyers attached to the committee; but regardless of what anyone may say, there is a political tinge, and the endeavour should be to get away from politics entirely. That can be done by sitting in camera. But there must be some person who can give legal advice. On these committees are many who are not lawyers. I think a lawyer is good in his place, and that would be one place for him. Certainly the committee should have the services of an accountant. How can ordinary laymen delve into these matters and find out such a thing as was brought up to-night in regard to this morale-building matter?
The minister is missing a wonderful opportunity if he does not insist that the war expenditures committee be given a secretariat so that they can search diligently into this department. I had an example of the need the other day. I put a question on the order paper asking for the production of papers in regard to the Ottawa Car and Aircraft company. I received a telephone call from the department. Mr. Marsh informed me that there were two wheelbarrows full of correspondence-I think it was two. He said, "Surely you do not want me to copy all this and send it over to you." Well, if he had done it, I would not have had time to go through it. So I said, "No, that is not what I want." He said, "Well, if you will tell me just what you want, I will try to get it." There is the difficulty the committee will find themselves in, and that is just one small company- two wheelbarrows full of correspondence. I suggest that no committee can go into such a matter with the intention of assisting the department and thereby assisting our war effort unless they have someone that they can call upon in such matters, someone absolutely independent of the department. If such were the case now, it would be a very easy thing to say to a chartered accountant and perhaps an experienced lawyer, "Now, you fellows go into that department and get all the material we want." I am sure the department is not trying to hide anything. I am sure Mr. Marsh, who telephones me, would do his best to get the material I require, but how does he know
tMr. Johnston (Bow River).;
what we want? I believe that if the committee is to do the work it should do, it should be given a secretariat which would efficiently and effectively go into these departments and get the information we are trying to get. If you keep the committee sitting in camera it will not be a case of publicizing the thing in order to get publicity; it will be a case of doing the job efficiently. Then, when we get through, members of the committee will not have to rise in the house and say, "We did not have an opportunity to go into that department. We did not have the time, and we did not have the facilities at our disposal."


Thomas Vien: I do not want to interfere with the hon. gentleman, but he is discussing a matter of procedure before a committee of parliament. I do not believe this is the proper time or place for that. The matter of procedure in a committee must be discussed in that committee. The committee may report to the house and request the remedies suggested by the hon. member, but it is not in order to discuss the procedure or the powers of a committee, or the assistance the committee should receive, when we are considering the resolution now before the committee of the whole.


Charles Edward Johnston: I was referring to the war expenditures committee of last year, Mr. Chairman. I think that can be discussed now, can it not?


Thomas Vien: No; this is not the proper time or place to discuss even a committee of last year.


Charles Edward Johnston: Well, Mr. Chairman, my only desire in bringing up this matter is to endeavour to avoid a repetition of what occurred to-night.


Thomas Vien: I have indicated the procedure to the hon. gentleman. I am not here to suggest ways and means, but I have indicated the procedure to which the hon. gentleman may have recourse, before the committee itself. Then, if the committee at present sitting on the very subject being discussed by the hon. gentleman-


Charles Edward Johnston: Just what would be the procedure in the committee? Would you tell me, sir, how I could do that in the committee? What would be the procedure?


Thomas Vien: The committee itself could deal with that question. If the committee feels that it needs assistance, it is for the members of the committee themselves to discuss how they should go about getting it.

War Appropriation-Supplies


Charles Edward Johnston: I quite agree, Mr. Chairman, that it is the privilege of any member of the committee to discuss in the committee what he thinks should be done. But even you, Mr. Chairman, I do not think would overlook the fact that with its present set-up, with a large majority of government members, it is doubtful whether the committee would accept any such suggestion.


Thomas Vien: At the moment I am not interested in that, except to say that it would not be in order now to discuss the procedure of the committee. If, when the report of the committee is drawn up, the minority members do not feel satisfied with the procedure, they can bring in a minority report.


Charles Edward Johnston: Well, Mr. Chairman, I venture to say that no report will be brought back to the house for some little time. I am suggesting to the minister-


Clarence Decatur Howe: What has the minister to do with a committee which is investigating the Department of Munitions and Supply? It is not my committee; I am not a member of it.


Charles Edward Johnston: I think it would be to the minister's interest to suggest-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Never mind the minister. You are a member of the committee; you do what you like. It has nothing to do with me.


Charles Edward Johnston: Then how does the minister expect that minority members of a committee will be able to do what they like in that committee?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not care what they do. I am not a member of the committee.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am just about coming to that conclusion. But I think the minister would do well to demand that a secretariat be placed at the disposal of that committee, so that a proper investigation might be made of his department.


Thomas Vien: Any discussion as to
the composition of the committee is altogether out of order. This matter was dealt with when the motion setting up the committee was before the house. It is out of order to discuss either the composition or the procedure of the committee now.


Charles Edward Johnston: I shall
abide by your ruling, Mr. Chairman, and we will do the best we can. When the report is made, we will see what can be done.


Clarence Decatur Howe: A few days ago the hon.
member for Bow River brought up a subject which I would not reopen but for the fact
that I have had protests from both the management and the employees of the Calgary rolling mills because of the statements made by my hon. friend. Those rolling mills are in the constituency of Bow River, and I should think we might expect any statement made by the hon. member to be accurate. As reported at page 2028 of Hansard for April 30, the hon. member said:
Within the last little while I have heard the Minister of Munitions and Supply say there was a shortage of steel. I do not believe that.
I do not quarrel with that; I would not expect the hon. gentleman to believe me.
I think that statement is absolutely incorrect-
Again I am not surprised.
-and I am going to tell you why. The rolling mills in Calgary quit work at five o'clock every afternoon. One of the men in the factory told me that they could produce three times the supply that they are producing.
It has been brought to my attention, officially and otherwise, that since the Calgary rolling mills opened they have been working seven days a week, three shifts per day. I have the production figures of the mill from the time they started in September. They are as follows:
Gross tons
September	 1,409
October	 1,195
November	 1,455
December	 1,192
January	 1,738
February	 1,523
March	 1.644
April	 1,743
I have had the output checked by our steel expert, and I am told that this is top capacity for a mill of that size. I think, in justice to his constituents, my hon. friend should apologize to the house for a misstatement of that kind.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have
absolutely no intention of apologizing to the house or to the minister, because I believe the statement I made will bear investigation. The minister has now gone to a great deal of trouble to investigate this situation. Why did he not do some investigating when we were pressing to have the mill opened? Surely there was enough criticism in this house about not opening it, but the minister was not in any great hurry then to open it. I want to ask the minister a question or two about the mill. I should like to ask how many blast furnaces are in operation at the mill.


Thomas Vien: Eleven o'clock.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Shipping Losses
[Stage Direction]
Friday, May 15, 1942